From jmiles007 at iquest.net Thu Dec 1 00:02:49 2005 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 01:02:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: <919A71C5-0AA4-4721-8E4D-084F03D7FD0D@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <001801c5f63c$e21b5580$765e000a@RileyTech.local> David, Glad to hear you have it up and running! That's great! Jon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:54 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > > Well, I have bad news and good news. The bad news is that I > was unable to fix my RL01 cable. I tried a few approaches to > reconnect the pins I could see were disconnected and wasn't > able to get it to work. However, the good news is that I was > able to acquire another cable and that fixed the problem > entirely. In fact, the PDP-11/73 booted off the RL01 pack the > first time I powered it up. I have three packs and was able > to read all of them. One contains RT-11 V5.5, another is a > TSX-Plus system disk but appears just to boot RT-11SJ. > It does have lots of files on it with ".tsx" extensions but > doesn't seem to boot TSX. The third is a blank scratch pack. > > I'm now in the market for a cable and breakout panel (cab > kit?) for my RQDX3 controller so that I can connect an ST225 > drive and an RX50 floppy drive to my 11/73. I know it's > possible to build one of these but from my experience with > attempting to fix the RL01 cable, I don't think I want to > tackle that project. If someone has a cable and breakout > panel they'd like to sell please get in touch with me. > > Anyway, thanks to everyone who has given me help with this > machine. I now have a working PDP-11/73 with 1.5mb of memory, > an RX02 floppy drive and an RL01 hard drive and it's all working! > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 01:47:57 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:47:57 +0000 Subject: A heads-up: updated holiday vintage computer buyers guide In-Reply-To: <438E298C.2010205@atarimuseum.com> References: <001801c5f5f6$33653d80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <438E298C.2010205@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640511302347q1445cbe2m@mail.gmail.com> >Although the > SIO2PC allows you to also take control of a PC's serial modem and > parallel ports as well as its floppy, hard disk and networked drives. > I thought all windows machines connected to the internet pretty much came with this as standard ;) Dan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 02:31:48 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:31:48 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051130152512.S76515@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 30/11/05 23:34, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Adrian Graham wrote: >> I checked my entire Mac collection and none of them would read 1.44 AND >> write 400K, hmm, I didn't get my SE/30 out of the garage..... > > That would probably be your best possibility. Wasn't the SE/30 the first > Mac with the FDHD ("super") drive? If so, then it would have been the > most important one to have transition capabilities. I think it was, and I also think I was trying to get my lisa going well before I got a working SE/30.....at the time I had a machine that had been destroyed by the UK's favourite package destroying courier company :o| > BTW, the first Lisa that I ever played with DID have a hard disk > (pre-release one on loan from Apple to UC Berkeley for Smalltalk > development.) Nice! I've never toyed with Smalltalk despite having both the Lisa and PC versions kicking around somewhere.... A From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 02:41:07 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:41:07 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini (was: Re: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: <200511301535560554.19CBAB07@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 30/11/05 23:35, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Somewhat OT: > > At orchestra rehearsal last night, one of the bassists proudly told me that > he'd bought a new computer--a Mac Mini for about $800, which included a 14" > LCD monitor and a gig of DRAM. I must admit that I'm not sure if he got a > good deal or not. You're definitely limited on expansion options and I'd > sure hate to repair the thing. > > DVD/CD-RW drive, but no floppy. > > OTOH, it is kind of cool from an industrial design standpoint, although a > small profile PC would be almost as small. I'm typing on my Mini right now and it's an excellent little machine, practically silent and so small it sits perfectly on the rotating base of an 18" flat screen monitor. Like all USB macs it's perfectly happy with my Logitech 7-button mouse and for connectivity it comes out of the box with bluetooth and 802.11G wireless. My only issue with it is that it only has 2 USB ports and no mic input so by the time you've got your kbd/mouse plugged in your remaining port is taken up by the USB sound module though I guess I could plug that into the keyboard too.....the hard drive is also slow.... Anyhoo, it only cost me ukp330 so I don't really mind :o) A From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 02:43:24 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:43:24 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512010015.QAA14950@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 00:15, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> At orchestra rehearsal last night, one of the bassists proudly told me that >> he'd bought a new computer--a Mac Mini for about $800, which included a 14" >> LCD monitor and a gig of DRAM. I must admit that I'm not sure if he got a >> good deal or not. You're definitely limited on expansion options and I'd >> sure hate to repair the thing. > > They're not that hard to get into. Literally all you need is a putty knife. > I've done some work on the mini a friend of mine has and it was fairly > straightforward to do surgery on hers. I've read that the official Apple service tool is a putty knife with a slot cut into the middle, but obviously you don't believe everything you read on the interweb :) A From cc at corti-net.de Thu Dec 1 03:37:22 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:37:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Which paper tape hole is bit 1? In-Reply-To: <10511191515.ZM7344@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <007701c5ed18$a6e5c040$6401a8c0@barry> <10511191515.ZM7344@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It was for DEC, at least with PDP-8s. I don't know about anyone else. HP, too (21xx, 1000) Christian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 04:07:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 02:07:31 -0800 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? Message-ID: <200512010207310241.1C0DDF05@10.0.0.252> I found why my PCTD 3 tape controller was defying my attempts to probe it--the XC2064-50 FPGA seems to be dead as a doornail. Regardless of signal inputs, it remains stubbornly inactive--i.e., my logic analyzer says that none of the identifiable outputs changes state. Since DMA and interrupt logic (as well as configuration) is contained in the FPGA, attempting to read from any I/O port returned FF. A jumper bypassing the FPGA for IO read, shows that the drive status lines are indeed present and readable. Similarly, writing to the appropriate I/O address causes the expected drive line to wiggle. Since I don't need soft configurability (only for IRQ and DMA; the I/O address is set via DIP switch), I may remove the FPGA and substitute some TTL. I haven't decided yet. But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about the XC2064-50 that I'm in the dark about? Are there any easy tests that I can apply to confirm my suspicions? Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 1 04:16:11 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:16:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: <327609CA-67E0-47A0-8DC6-7332B6B0D312@xlisper.mv.com> References: <0IQ100CGM2HHI75G@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <7ADE11AC-E5E4-4FA4-B22B-6305ADE468C0@xlisper.mv.com> <919A71C5-0AA4-4721-8E4D-084F03D7FD0D@xlisper.mv.com> <438E3CC6.5040800@gjcp.net> <327609CA-67E0-47A0-8DC6-7332B6B0D312@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <438ECD6B.8070202@gjcp.net> David Betz wrote: > So you boot the system in RT-11 and then start TSX? Thanks! I'll try > that. Do you know where I can find a description of TSX? Up to version 6.2, a big box of folders in my server room :-) Other than that, and probably more usefully, bitsavers have a good archive with all the install guides and stuff. http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus/ Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 1 04:26:39 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:26:39 +0000 Subject: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions In-Reply-To: <0IQS007TFVFE8J56@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQS007TFVFE8J56@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <438ECFDF.5090308@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: > Shame you can try that (in F77) on a VAX or PC wher 32bit address > space is the rule. I'd expect much different behavour.. > Till your task is paged out. ;) I've got a MicroVAX II and MicroVAX 3300 sitting doing nothing at the moment... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 1 04:31:37 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:31:37 +0000 Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438ED109.701@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>On 11/30/2005 at 11:25 AM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> >>>Many IC's and transistors show little to no visual >>>indications that they are shorted inside. I don't >>>know how one can find these without understanding >>>where the resistors are in the schematic and how >>>the resistors are being used. >> >>Actually, many servicepeople rely on compiled tips for servicing. >>Something like "If there's no vertical sweep, replace R302, Q401 and C213". > > > I find those sort of tips totally useless!. There could be many causes of > 'no vertical deflection' (or whatever), the fact that _once_ it was > caused by a particular set of components doesn't mean it always is. I can't agree there. When I used to repair TVs and video recorders and the like, I (like others) tended to find that different makes had their own particular favourite stock faults. In that case, for example, if you got a Ferguson ICC9-chassis TV on the bench with no EW correction and excessive width, you'd go straight for a particular electrolytic somewhere around the scan drive circuit. Annoyingly enough I can't remember which one and my telly has just started doing that... Gordon From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Dec 1 04:47:48 2005 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:47:48 +0100 Subject: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions In-Reply-To: <200512010404.jB1447YK002233@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512010404.jB1447YK002233@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <438ED4D4.5060504@update.uu.se> On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:39:07 -0500 Allison wrote: >>>Subject: Re: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions >>> From: "Jerome H. Fine" >>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:57:37 -0500 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> > >>>I am still not able to figure out why the FORTRAN 77 >>>subroutine has different timing when the destination >>>address is moved from PAR0 to PAR1 under RT-11 under >>>both E11 and a real PDP-11/73. Cache has been suggested, >>>so I will attempt the calculation with a PDP-11/23 >>>which does not have any cache. >>> >>>Sincerely yours, >>> >>>Jerome Fine > > >Cache is half the answer. The other half is when you hit the bus >on a cache miss two things have to happen. You have to do bus >transactions which are very slow compared to cache and you have to >refill the cache. IF there is any MMU action required >(pagein/pageou) you add that overhead as well. Nonsense! No PDP-11 operating system have demand paging and page faults. It could be done, but noone is doing it. So you just have the memory access instead of a cache hit. But memory access is just so much slower. And the bus transaction is a part of that memory access. Oh, and the cache is working on *physical* address, not virtual. (You would get serious problems if you used the virtual address for the cache.) So, before you can even figure out if the data is in the cache or not, the MMU must do the address translation. >Remember the PDP11 is 16 bits. Any addressing outside ~28kwords >is going to involve a MMU operation. That a lot of register >access and it's costly(in time), more so if you need to move >the Dmap in an I&D machine (11/73). The reason for that is those >actions lie inside the core OS and require system calls to process. >E11 is just being faithful to the core PDP11 so I'd expect similar >if not exact same behavour. You didn't say RTll SJ or FB. This also seems like a silly statement. From a program point of view, you cannot access anything outside 32Kword. Never. Like you say: the PDP-11 is a 16-bit architecture. The MMU is always involved in mapping your 16-bit address into the 22-bit address space The memory is sitting on a 22-bit address space, so you *must* generate a 22-bit physical address. With the MMU disabled, the MMU have a wired mapping to the physical address space, while if the MMU is enabled, all addressing goes through the proper MMU PAR. This don't incur any timing overhead at all. The time for passing through the MMU is always present, and you cannot do anything about it, nor detect it. And as I said above, the MMU must first translate the virtual address into a physical address before the cache can take a shot at it. (Incidentally, the hardwired addressing used if the MMU is disabled, is to map the low 28 Kword of virtual space into the low 28 Kword of physical space, but to map the last 4 Kword of virtual space into the last 4 Kword of physical space, which is the I/O page. If you switch to 18-bit addressing, the MMU registers gets involved, but only the low 12 bits of the PAF are used, and of course in 22-bit mode all 16 bits of the PAF is used.) The MMU PAR is set up before the program can execute, and there is no more overhead in accessing something through the D PARs than the I PARs. You could possibly argue that the OS will need more time to fill in the PARs if you have split I/D space, since that means you need to fill in more registers. The PDP-11 is not like more modern virtual address machines, where you have a TLB, which is a cache for the MMU registers, and which is filled in dynamically as the program proceeds. The PDP-11 have a very static register set for the MMU, and those registers are already inside the MMU. And the mapping is rather static as well. Heck, you only have a total of 48 PARs at maximum to fill in. And that's only if you use all eight PARs for both I and D space, and for kernel, supervisor and user mode. No, Jeromes "problem" really can only be attributed to cache conflicts. It's not really a PAR0 vs. PAR1 problem, but a problem of both program and data hitting the same cache lines. With 8K cache, you have 13 address bits which select the cache line (well, since the cache is really 16 bits wide it's actually 12 address bits, A1-A12). A13-A21 is used as the cache tag. Any data hitting the same cache line is matched on the cache tag, and if the tag don't match, the cache is reloaded from memory. Otherwise data is served from the cache directly. So, if Jeromes program is in continous memory (which I assume it is, since RT-11 really don't do much fancy work with the MMU), PAR1 comes directly after PAR0 in physical memory, which means that the same relative address within each PAR will hit the same cache line. E11 will not have this problem, since E11 don't really implement the PDP-11 cache. No point in doing that. However, E11 is running on a i386, which happens to have exactly the same possible problem. All machines with cache will display the same behaviour. If you are smart, you can write a program that will tell you exactly how much cache you have, how many levels there are, the TLB size (if you have one), the associativeness of all caches, and also the timing of it all. And all of this is done by probing the same thing Jerome just discovered. :-) I have such a program somewhere around here, but it's really something that most people working with these things at a low level already should know about. >Shame you can try that (in F77) on a VAX or PC wher 32bit address >space is the rule. I'd expect much different behavour.. >Till your task is paged out. ;) It would be different, of course, in the sense that that program would have different cache sizes, different associativeness of the cache, would also have a virtual demand page system with a TLB, and a larger natural word size, which would change the requirements of the program. But we could easily create a similar effect on any machine. That is, the speed of the program would be affected by where the data was placed. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/188 - Release Date: 2005-11-29 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 1 05:59:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:59:44 +0000 Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: <20051201041626.95853.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20051201041626.95853.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <438EE5B0.4050501@yahoo.co.uk> lee davison wrote: >> So, given that assumption for now, anyone know of a likely fault >> in a typical SMPSU that might cause such a catastrophic chip >> failure but no other obvious damage? > > The switching transistor has probably gone s/c which ends up > connecting the rectified mains to the switch output on the IC. > They tend not to last long when that happens. Interesting - I suppose in all the SMPSU failures I've seen in the past where the switching transistor(s) has gone, it's failed O/C and so nothing else has been affected. Can't remember the last time I saw the top get blown right off an IC! At least *if* it's just the switching transistor and this IC that are dead then repairing without schematics shouldn't be too hard. Depends what else shares the IC output and hence has been given a blast of mains to it... cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 06:19:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:19:37 -0500 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? Message-ID: <0IQT0080DJIRT5M3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 02:07:31 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about >the XC2064-50 that I'm in the dark about? Are there any easy tests that I >can apply to confirm my suspicions? > Not that I know of and I use them. Years ago Tim gave me a bunch of 2064s and 3030s to learn FPGAs and I've used a bunch of them. All of mine load from an eprom and I've had the eeprom that loads it fail. Like any device it can fail though. At power up it should have activity on the programming IO. Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 1 06:28:29 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:28:29 -0500 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 01 Dec 2005 02:07:31 PST." <200512010207310241.1C0DDF05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512011228.jB1CSTkm009713@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about >the XC2064-50 that I'm in the dark about? Are there any easy tests that I >can apply to confirm my suspicions? Doesn't it need to be 'loaded', either via a eeprom or the pcu? Most older fpga's (I thought) had to be programmed at startup via some form of bit-serial line. This is often something like an i2c eeprom directly attached to the chip. I have not looked that XC2 datasheet, however. (actually, I'm having trouble finding one...) -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 06:49:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:49:37 -0500 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? Message-ID: <0IQT00G8EKWRX937@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Do old FPGA's decay? > From: Brad Parker > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:28:29 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >"Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> >>But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about >>the XC2064-50 that I'm in the dark about? Are there any easy tests that I >>can apply to confirm my suspicions? > >Doesn't it need to be 'loaded', either via a eeprom or the pcu? > >Most older fpga's (I thought) had to be programmed at startup via some >form of bit-serial line. This is often something like an i2c eeprom >directly attached to the chip. > >I have not looked that XC2 datasheet, however. (actually, I'm having trouble >finding one...) > >-brad I looked up the ISP2064 (lattice) and that is the case. Also if the mode pins are set a differnt way it can parallel load from a common ee/e/rom or microprocessor. Allison From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Dec 1 09:01:25 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:01:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? Message-ID: <12415.1133449285@www4.gmx.net> Bill Richman wrote: > I was just given an IBM AS400/9040 at the computer refurb/recycling shop > I operate. Is there anything legitimate that it could be used for, I should think there's no law prohibiting its use as a space heater?! In fact there shouldn't be many illegitimate activities involving the _hardware_, unless one tips it over onto people, uses it to crushes foreign property or pollutes the environment with it ;-). Kidding aside...as just recently explained, the problem is the OS for it. Before I go repeating stuff that I only picked up here on the list, I suggest looking for the knowledge which has already been exchanged here; two starting points out of a lot more: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-December/022896.html http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-January/013268.html As an aside, "9040" isn't an AS/400 designation I could easily find...any chance you mixed up the symbols, "9404" looks a lot more like it? > or should I scrap it? I know nothing about it other than that it's big > and heavy, and it seems to IPL according to the front-panel display. That last sentence essentially _is_ three arguments not to scrap it, at least to me... I've never touched an AS/400 before, but should like to. > I'm going to try to hook a terminal to it, but I'm not sure how quite yet. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-December/006151.html is yet another thread worth having a look. However it only deals with twinax terminals; I've never heard of somebody accessing one via serial console. So long, yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Highspeed-Freiheit. Bei GMX superg?nstig, z.B. GMX DSL_Cityflat, DSL-Flatrate f?r nur 4,99 Euro/Monat* http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Dec 1 09:11:56 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:11:56 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? Message-ID: All: I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. Any thoughts from the group? Rich From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 1 09:20:49 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: <200512010207310241.1C0DDF05@10.0.0.252> References: <200512010207310241.1C0DDF05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I found why my PCTD 3 tape controller was defying my attempts to probe > it--the XC2064-50 FPGA seems to be dead as a doornail. Regardless of > signal inputs, it remains stubbornly inactive--i.e., my logic analyzer says > that none of the identifiable outputs changes state. > > Since DMA and interrupt logic (as well as configuration) is contained in > the FPGA, attempting to read from any I/O port returned FF. A jumper > bypassing the FPGA for IO read, shows that the drive status lines are > indeed present and readable. Similarly, writing to the appropriate I/O > address causes the expected drive line to wiggle. > > Since I don't need soft configurability (only for IRQ and DMA; the I/O > address is set via DIP switch), I may remove the FPGA and substitute some > TTL. I haven't decided yet. > > But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about > the XC2064-50 that I'm in the dark about? Are there any easy tests that I > can apply to confirm my suspicions? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > XC2064a are SRAM based FPGAs and _are_ inactive until their configuration is loaded, Thats what I would check into... (configuration loading) Peter Wallace From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 09:27:45 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:27:45 -0500 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <12415.1133449285@www4.gmx.net> References: <12415.1133449285@www4.gmx.net> Message-ID: <438F1671.3050506@gmail.com> Arno Kletzander wrote: > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-December/006151.html > is yet another thread worth having a look. However it only deals with twinax > terminals; I've never heard of somebody accessing one via serial console. Even if there were a way to hook a serial terminal up, the machine is still EBCDIC. Peace... Sridhar From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 1 09:28:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:28:50 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F16B2.7020306@atarimuseum.com> I've been using Redhat and Mandrake. Redhat has a few more legacy/backwards compatible utils for data access that Mandrake will have to have added on later on you own (if you needed them). Redhat also installs a lot quicker in most cases for me. I occassionally use BSD for a few things, but mostly I've been sticking with Redhat. I've only installed up to 9.2 (I think...) and I know there are a few newer distributions out there since then. Before that, I was using TurboLinux which I really like, it was very fast and at the time was one of the better multi-processor supporting Linux's out there (this was like 4+ yrs ago mind you...) and I had that running my webserver for quite a while and it ran very well and had some great monitoring and management tools. Curt Cini, Richard wrote: >All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home >as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the >group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora >Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? > > > >Rich > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 09:33:44 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:33:44 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F17D8.6040302@gmail.com> Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? NetBSD gets my vote. Peace... Sridhar From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Dec 1 09:35:59 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:35:59 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F185F.1060507@attglobal.net> Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? > It depends on how often/how much futzing you want to do after you have it loaded. Fedora Core is essentially the "Development" branch of Red Hat Linux. It is very current, but the frequent upgrades can be a hassle unless you like to play with the cutting-edge stuff all of the time. Slackware is an oldie-but-goodie distribution. It still has many followers and one of the first distributions I used. FreeBSD: I don't use on a desktop. The *BSDs are all top-drawer stuff but you may have more difficulty working with them then you would Linux -- an effect caused by the incredible press that Linux gets over BSD. It all depends on how much of a Unix-bent you have. Ubuntu I've just started looking at... it's slick and seems to be getting quite a bit of press and mindshare lately. I must admit that my first impression is "ho-hum". Linspire -- I have no idea. That one is a subscription model only. I've heard good things about it but have never personally used it. Its focus appears to be for the Windows user as it makes it trivial to update or add packages. Personally, I use CentOS on all of my machines. It's a rebuild of Red Hat Enterprise Linux and is very stable. I don't need to upgrade very often. Combined with Dag Wieer's repo I find I have everything I need. My laptop is a CentOS 4 machine and it sees heavy daily use. Barry From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Dec 1 09:39:46 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:39:46 -0500 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <20051130155253.GA97959@outpost.timeguy.com> References: <200511300623.jAU6MuBo088511@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051130155253.GA97959@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <438F1942.4070305@attglobal.net> Bill Richman wrote: > I was just given an IBM AS400/9040 at the computer refurb/recycling shop I operate. Is there anything legitimate that it could be used for, or should I scrap it? I know nothing about it other than that it's big and heavy, and it seems to IPL according to the front-panel display. I'm going to try to hook a terminal to it, but I'm not sure how quite yet. > I'm not 100% sure but I think that if this box has a twinax port (or an octopus with connections for 8) then you'll likely find that it's configred for a twinax console. You'll need one to boot the machine and do anything useful with it. later versions of OS/400 and AS/400s have the capability to use a PC as a terminal, with special software. The connectivity to an AS/400 via serial connections isn't all that great. The nature of the 5250 protocol is half-duplex. That is, it sends a screen, the processor within the terminal renders it on the screen, you fill in fields and press the Return key send the record back to the machine. It's not like an ASCII terminal. Barry From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 1 09:40:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:40:09 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. Always been a Slackware fan myself (used it since the SLS days, apart from a brief diversion to RedHat). It's less bloated than the likes of Fedora, but still comes with the option of a lot of desktop software. Not used Unbuntu or Linspire so can't comment. FreeBSD isn't Linux, so can't really comment there either (although experience has been that it's brilliant for server-side but you'll have your work cut out configuring it to be a good desktop machine) Personal observations about Linux over the years: 1) It's suffering from *serious* bloat, feature-creep and eye candy these days. Presumably the 'sweet spot' was 8-9 years ago when the ratio of clueful programmers versus muppets who contributed was a lot higher. Main problem's people launching into projects without any proper design or planning beforehand I think (both the popular desktop environments, Gnome and KDE, seem to suffer badly from this). 2) In the desktop world, there still isn't a decent graphics package (Gimp is awful to use) or audio processing app. I'm currently struggling to find any half-decent OCR tool too. 3) Systems still suffer from rot, just like Windows does. After a while, it gets very difficult to be able to tell what bits can be removed because you're not using them (or that were installed in a bundle with something that you do use, and are just using up diskspace). Linux badly needs some sort of kernel-level package / module / library management (offerings like RPM tend to be too coarse grain IMHO) 4) WINE is actually pretty darn good these days if you want to run Windows apps on your Linux box. 5) The OS as a whole is one heck of a lot more stable than Windows. > Any thoughts from the group? I'm leaning toward the "put a Mac on your desktop, put Linux on your servers" approach, myself. That is without having actually used a Mac since the LC days though - but I know that a lot of things irritate me about the Linux desktop world, whilst even more things irritate me about the Windows desktop world. :-) I'm not convinced it's possible to produce a desktop environment with the open-source cooperative model without it turning into a giant bloated inconsistent mess! HTH, Jules From a.macdonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 10:25:25 2005 From: a.macdonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk (Alistair MacDonald) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:25:25 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Cini, Richard wrote: >> I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at >> home >> as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll >> of the >> group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded >> Fedora >> Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. I've gone MCC, SLS, Slackware, SuSE, Debian over the years. I've also played with Redhat and Knoppix. Waiting to be tested on the new machine is Ubuntu. I switched to Debian because it gave the most control over the system and left things reasonably standard. The thing to watch out with Debian is the slow release cycle. If anyone does go with Debian is it better to use 'testing' rather than 'stable' (IMHO). 'unstable' is normally fine, but does glitch occasionally. Ubuntu is derived from Debian 'unstable' with some extra bits. (Which is why it will be tried on the new machine -- better AMD64 support) For those with processor cycles to burn there is also Gentoo, which is primarily source based, ie more like FreeBSD's ports system. My personal experience with RedHat has been bad. But that is just my personal experience. I could never get it to do what I wanted. I had to let it do what it wanted. > Personal observations about Linux over the years: > > 1) It's suffering from *serious* bloat, feature-creep and eye candy > these days. Very true. > 2) [...] I'm currently > struggling to find any half-decent OCR tool too. I've given up on that. > 3) Systems still suffer from rot, just like Windows does. After a while, > it gets very difficult to be able to tell what bits can be removed > because you're not using them (or that were installed in a bundle with > something that you do use, and are just using up diskspace). Linux badly > needs some sort of kernel-level package / module / library management > (offerings like RPM tend to be too coarse grain IMHO) Debian has 'deborphan' which can identify those packages which are no longer referenced by other installed packages. You can also force the removal of packages if you are certain that you don't need them. I suspect that most of the distributions do. The trick is working out the appropriate incantation. Alistair From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Dec 1 10:47:45 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:47:45 +0100 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <438F1671.3050506@gmail.com> References: <12415.1133449285@www4.gmx.net> Message-ID: <438F3741.28445.2EF5E5C6@localhost> Am 1 Dec 2005 10:27 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: > Arno Kletzander wrote: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-December/006151.html > > is yet another thread worth having a look. However it only deals with twinax > > terminals; I've never heard of somebody accessing one via serial console. > Even if there were a way to hook a serial terminal up, the machine is > still EBCDIC. Kick me if my memory is that bad, but any kind of line codes are (usualy) ASCII for IBM remote perhipherals. Which includes Terminals. But even if not, it line codes can be configured via CCSID entries. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Dec 1 10:47:45 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:47:45 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <438F3741.11279.2EF5E691@localhost> Am 1 Dec 2005 10:11 meinte Cini, Richard: > All: > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > Any thoughts from the group? Just if you son't want to switch for a neat mac mini, I see two possible options: a) if it's a rather actual hardware and you don'T want to fiddle with the OS, or installation or whatever, I strongly suggest a SuSE with KDE. It's probably the best match for Windows. SuSE has the a setup for people without special knowledge (as easy as windows), while KDE gives you any oportunity to model your desktoy as you want it - Gnome is here eventually better for the complete computer dummy, but I assume you're a bit above, an just don't want to do the Linux basics. b) If you want to have your customized system, but don't want to go all the way to 100% DIY (aka Slackware), Gentoo would be the choice. All stuff will be compiled for your machine on your machine, everything can be setup the way you want it to be. Basicly a source based distribution with a BSD like portage system. So you get the best of both worlds. Except for one machine running without change since 8 years, all my Linux boxes are Gentoo based by now. Often you may also get Debian nominated for customizeing and easy maintanance, but it's all binary, and often quite outdated, so it gets often quite tricky - unless your a Linux gure, but in that case any distri would be fine :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 1 10:47:31 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:47:31 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512010847.31338.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 01 December 2005 07:11, Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded > Fedora Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? > > > > Rich We've been recommending SuSE (now Novell) for several years to our clients for both workstations and servers - and we (clients and ourselves) have not been disappointed. Some of our clients have several thousand workstations - mixed Windows and Linux - and many servers - again mixed Linux, Sun Solaris, IBM AIX, and Windows versions of various ilk. I personally have used a SuSE Linux workstation for years . In fact, I started "playing" with Linux about version 0.89 (slightly post Minix)... I've done many analysis's for clients of RH v. SuSE - and SuSE almost always "wins". What you finally choose is application and manageability dependent - so try both. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 10:54:38 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:54:38 -0500 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <438F3741.28445.2EF5E5C6@localhost> References: <12415.1133449285@www4.gmx.net> <438F3741.28445.2EF5E5C6@localhost> Message-ID: <438F2ACE.5010303@gmail.com> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 1 Dec 2005 10:27 meinte Sridhar Ayengar: >>Arno Kletzander wrote: >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-December/006151.html >>>is yet another thread worth having a look. However it only deals with twinax >>>terminals; I've never heard of somebody accessing one via serial console. > >>Even if there were a way to hook a serial terminal up, the machine is >>still EBCDIC. > > Kick me if my memory is that bad, but any kind of line codes > are (usualy) ASCII for IBM remote perhipherals. Which includes > Terminals. I'm reasonably sure that my 3278 coax SNA mainframe terminals do not speak ASCII. Peace... Sridhar From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Dec 1 11:03:56 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:03:56 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051201170356.GC13985@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-12-01 10:11:56 -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. Debian, of course :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 11:12:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 06:12:52 +1300 Subject: Simple 8-bit D-A / load meter? Message-ID: I've dug around a bunch, even here http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/system/status/!INDEX.short.html ... where I thought things were, but I appear to have lost an old file that described how to make a simple D-A that one could hang off of an 8-bit I/O port to generate a voltage from approx 0 VDC to +5VDC. Does anyone remember an ancient file describing how to build such a device? ISTR it resembles a Disney Sound Source, a klunky dongle that was supported by such games as "Return to Zork" if you didn't have a sound card in your machine... more or less a resistor ladder that allows you to eject waveforms that sound more or less like something you'd expect to hear coming out of a cheap PC sound card. Yes, I could design this from scratch... but since I built one a few years ago from a file I found while grubbing around for external load meter hardware, I'd rather just use something like that as a starting point than take the time to reinvent the wheel. Thanks for any and all pointers to this tidbit of knowledge. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 11:22:06 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:22:06 -0800 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: <0IQT00G8EKWRX937@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQT00G8EKWRX937@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512010922060863.0012B77F@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 7:49 AM Allison wrote: >I looked up the ISP2064 (lattice) and that is the case. Also if the mode >pins are set a differnt way it can parallel load from a common ee/e/rom >or microprocessor. Ah, well, that explains it and also tells me that I probably do want to ditch the chip. There's no ROM/EPROM for loading on board (the rest of the board is plain old TTL), which means the download must come from the driver (which I haven't been able to locate). Even if I took the trouble to deduce the functioning of each I/O, I'd still have to come up with the programming for the darned thing. Not worth the effort, I think. If I can't patch something in with some TTL that will work, it looks like a candidate for the scrap pile. Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 1 11:40:13 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:40:13 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? Message-ID: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> I have a MicroVAX-II and I want to add a Kennedy 9600 9 track drive. AFAIK, this drive has a standard Pertec interface and I was planning to use it with a Dilog DQ132 controller. The drive is capable of both 800 and 1600bpi, and I need to be able to use it at both densities. I installed it and cabled it all up - VMS (v4.5 in this case) sees the DQ132 and autoconfigures it as MSA0 (a good sign!), and the drive seems happy and loads a tape. VMS reports that MSA0 is a TSV05 (which is what I'd expect) and doesn't log any errors. But, whenever I try to access the drive, VMS says that it's offline and I can't get it to actually do anything. Yes, the Kennedy is actually online (the online LED is lit) and the "select" LED on the drive flickers for an instant when VMS tries to access the drive. The drive is set as unit 0, and it was working the last time it was used (with an Emulex controller in that instance). Just for fun, I tried the Kennedy drive with a real TSV05 (M7196) controller that's known to work with a real TSV05 drive - same results. Is there any obvious reason why this wouldn't work? The 9600 is Pertec, right? If you Google for this drive you'll find a couple of places that say it's SCSI, but that seems wrong. Anybody got a manual for the 9600? Bitsavers has the manual for the 9610, but it appears that the 9600 is substantially different. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 11:46:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:46:04 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> I've had Linux in one form or the other since the very early release days (0.something). I've never found it for use as a desktop system (especially GUI) particularly compelling. I think many folks secretly hold the same opinion, else why the rise of products like Wine? And there are some areas where it really is deficient--multimedia for example. Specialized apps are another area--I've never found a really good WYSIWYG musical notation editor for Linux. For doing real work, I like command line interfaces, so I keep a Linux system around that I can telnet into from my Windows desktop. I might be tempted to use a Mac as a desktop machine, but my customers in general don't, so it's best to live where they do, so to speak. My mail and net server is Linux and I change distros there when I change hardware--every few years. There's no reason to do otherwise--the new distros aren't as a rule faster and the server basically never crashes since it's always doing the same thing day after day. As far as distros go, I started with Slackware, but have been using RH for some time, simply because I've been using RH for some time.. It really doesn't matter all that much--RH does tend to be very spotty in its releases--you can often find some very old release of a package in their distros--and they have the RH way of doing things. Debian isn't bad but can get to be very confusing and verbose during installation--and help in making choices is often difficult to find. I've also tried SuSE and it's pretty good. But mostly, I want to install the blasted thing and be done with it. Others have observed the bloat in Linux and I agree. I started running it on an 8MB 386 and it was pretty snappy. I don't think that feat could be reproduced with any of the current distros. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 1 11:53:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:53:41 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Alistair MacDonald wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Cini, Richard wrote: >>> I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at >>> home >>> as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll >>> of the >>> group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded >>> Fedora >>> Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > I've gone MCC, SLS, Slackware, SuSE, Debian over the years. Actually, I forgot to mention that I've quite often had people recommend I try Debian over Slackware before. You still get the problem of the Gnome / KDE choice though, I suppose. > My personal experience with RedHat has been bad. But that is just my > personal experience. I could never get it to do what I wanted. I had to > let it do what it wanted. Yes, exactly the same here. It's not very often I hear from people who say they liked it (or Fedora). >> 2) [...] I'm currently struggling to find any half-decent OCR tool too. > > I've given up on that. I'm currently hacking front-end code in order to try and improve the performance of the OCR engine itself. It's giving me a headache! >> 3) Systems still suffer from rot, just like Windows does. After a > > Debian has 'deborphan' which can identify those packages which are no > longer referenced by other installed packages. You can also force the > removal of packages if you are certain that you don't need them. I > suspect that most of the distributions do. The trick is working out the > appropriate incantation. Yes, Slackware has various equivalents (run a 'man -k pkg' for a list). Problem is, the concept of a 'package' is fairly high-level. Say you want to be able to play x format of audio on your system. You might find there's a multimedia library package that enables you to do this - except that what you actually get is a bundle of umpteen billion library files which can play every format ever devised, 99% of which you don't ever need, and which sit there on the system doing nothing. If you go around deleting them manually, you screw up the package system that's been layered onto the OS as an afterthought. I just wish the concept of a package was more of a file-level thing, so that you end of with a system just comprising the bits you really need and use - coupled with some sort of common mechanism which can tell you when you're trying to do something from a front-end script / GUI app for which you're missing required modules / libraries / other apps of course. Possibly have the ability for the system to automatically go fetch the needed bits from the 'net too. I seem to recall that Perl has something akin to this, and that in the Windows world their media player can do it too - but having it built in system wide with a common set of APIs to manage it would be nice. cheers J. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 11:53:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 12:53:35 -0500 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? Message-ID: <0IQT005RXYZA1FD7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:40:13 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > I have a MicroVAX-II and I want to add a Kennedy 9600 9 track drive. >AFAIK, this drive has a standard Pertec interface and I was planning to use >it with a Dilog DQ132 controller. The drive is capable of both 800 and >1600bpi, and I need to be able to use it at both densities. > > I installed it and cabled it all up - VMS (v4.5 in this case) sees the >DQ132 and autoconfigures it as MSA0 (a good sign!), and the drive seems >happy and loads a tape. VMS reports that MSA0 is a TSV05 (which is what I'd >expect) and doesn't log any errors. But, whenever I try to access the >drive, VMS says that it's offline and I can't get it to actually do >anything. > > Yes, the Kennedy is actually online (the online LED is lit) and the >"select" LED on the drive flickers for an instant when VMS tries to access >the drive. The drive is set as unit 0, and it was working the last time it >was used (with an Emulex controller in that instance). > > Just for fun, I tried the Kennedy drive with a real TSV05 (M7196) >controller that's known to work with a real TSV05 drive - same results. > > Is there any obvious reason why this wouldn't work? > > The 9600 is Pertec, right? If you Google for this drive you'll find a >couple of places that say it's SCSI, but that seems wrong. > > Anybody got a manual for the 9600? Bitsavers has the manual for the 9610, >but it appears that the 9600 is substantially different. No manual but do check the interrupt grant chain. I've been dinged a few times because I had a gap in the chain and VMS sorta finds the device but cant really work it. Allison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Dec 1 11:59:23 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:59:23 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051201185923.37bfee12.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:40:09 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Cini, Richard wrote: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop > > at home > > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll > > of the group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. First and foremost: Linux (Unix) is no Windows surrogate. Linux is an alternative. Linux is an entirely different world. If you install Linux in the hope to get a "Windows with less X / more Y" you will be disappointed. If you want a "just use" non-M$ desktop machine get a Mac and run OSX. There is no best Linux distribution. There may be one that fits your needs best out of the available choices. If I have to use Linux (i.e. at work) I use Debian. It suffers a bit from FSF/GNU ideology, but it is less brain dead then e.g. Suse. It is easy to update / maintain and as stable and consistent as Linux can be. > Not used Unbuntu or Linspire so can't comment. FreeBSD isn't Linux, so > can't really comment there either (although experience has been that > it's brilliant for server-side but you'll have your work cut out > configuring it to be a good desktop machine) Seconded. I am a NetBSD person. NetBSD is well usable as a desktop Unix. Been there, done that for several years, got the tee-shirt. But you have to work for it. The advantage is that you are forced to tailor the system to exactely fit your needs. The benefit of this work is a system thats build like _you_ need / want. One advantage of NetBSD (also Free- and Open-) is the strict distinction between base OS and third party software. If you mess up your KDE, GNOME, whatever installation (somthing that likes to happen), you can just toss it and start over with a fresh pkgsrc without touching the base OS. Base OS releases get supported for several years. NetBSD is the most sane implementation of the UNIX paradigm. > Personal observations about Linux over the years: > > 1) It's suffering from *serious* bloat, Seconded. Seeing KDE and GNOME eating several 100 MB of RAM and slowing a 1 GHz CPU down to the feel of a 100 MHz machine is simply disgusting. Fortunately Unix gives me the freedom of using somthing like fvwm2. > 3) Systems still suffer from rot, just like Windows does. A system that gets used is "aging". That is the way live goes. It is a law of nature. There is no way to work around it beside not using the system. > 4) WINE is actually pretty darn good these days if you want to run > Windows apps on your Linux box. And there will be Windows inside of XEN in the neare future... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 12:01:08 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:01:08 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? Message-ID: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:46:04 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Others have observed the bloat in Linux and I agree. I started running it >on an 8MB 386 and it was pretty snappy. I don't think that feat could be >reproduced with any of the current distros. > >Cheers, >Chuck Same here. There are a few that barely run on anything less than p-III class hardware. Since I have an abundance of older 486class stuff I use Freebsd 2.2.6 and a 7 year old copy of Slackware or Caldera OpenlinuxV2.3 when I want a linux box. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 12:14:18 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:14:18 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200512011014180857.004281D9@10.0.0.252> Pertec interface is very simple. Try probing the signals--an online drive should assert (negative logic; 0 = TRUE) IONL, which is pin 44 of P2. If it doesn't, you may want to see if the transport address has been changed on your drive. Most adapters assume 00 for a single-transport address--check that with pins 46 (ITAD1) on P2 and 46 (ITAD0) on P1--both should be at the +5 level. Finally, Pertec allows for more than one formatter, but most adapters assume by default formatter 0. Check the level at pin 48 of P2--it should also be high. Finally, check any configuration jumpers inside the 9600 to make sure they agree with these settings. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 1 12:15:01 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:15:01 +0000 Subject: Simple 8-bit D-A / load meter? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F3DA5.504@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've dug around a bunch, even here > > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/system/status/!INDEX.short.html > > ... where I thought things were, but I appear to have lost an old file > that described how to make a simple D-A that one could hang off of an > 8-bit I/O port to generate a voltage from approx 0 VDC to +5VDC. Does Off the top of my head, look in the top left bit of a TB303 circuit diagram where the 7-bit converter to generate the VCO control voltage is. Googling for "tb303.gif" should bring it up. In fact... Quick description looking at my printed out copy is: 100k resistors from each data line 100k resistor to ground from the "open" end of the D0 resistor 50k (two 100k in parallel) from the junction of the two 100k resistors connected to D0 to the open end of D1's resistor, another from there to D2's resistor, and so on up to D7 output voltage off the top of D7's resistor/50k resistor junction. HTH Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 12:39:21 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:39:21 +0000 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 17:40, "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > Is there any obvious reason why this wouldn't work? > > The 9600 is Pertec, right? If you Google for this drive you'll find a > couple of places that say it's SCSI, but that seems wrong. The 9600s we look after are all SCSI but you could swap out the SCSI modules for others IIRC. The SCSI module will say what it is if you open the drive up and check the card cage in the back. > Anybody got a manual for the 9600? Bitsavers has the manual for the 9610, > but it appears that the 9600 is substantially different. I think we've got the service guide; I can ask the lads that look after them. A From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 1 12:44:42 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:44:42 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: <200512011014180857.004281D9@10.0.0.252> References: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> <200512011014180857.004281D9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <438F449A.2030605@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Pertec interface is very simple. > You might try using 800bpi tapes as well as a simple test (or blank might work, since this isn't a Cipher). The reason is that 1600 and 3200 tapes have a PE burst at the beginning of the tape that causes the formatted interface to put out a bit of nonsense when starting up that is not there when you use the 800BPI tape, which is NRZI and has no such detect burst. I don't have the specifics, but did run into such a problem with 800 vs 1600 on a Microdata system formatted tape interface eons ago. I know that the problems of the Microdata interface probably were unique to that system, but think it is worth mentioning. I did see problems on other systems when using a blank tape vs recorded, and I suspected it was the lack of the PE burst that caused them, due to the way the system worked. That was in using the drives with Overland controllers. Jim From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 1 12:49:28 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:49:28 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051201185923.37bfee12.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jochen Kunz may have mentioned these words: >There is no best Linux distribution. Yes there is. http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, but then you can build *just exactly what you want* with the compiler options that you want, etc. Don't want X, don't build it. I can easily fit a non-X distro (with all the other bells & whistles) in less than 512M, and wouldn't booting from a cheap CF card be fun? ;-) I've been doing LFS for 2 years now, and now I can't stand *any* other distro for my own use; altho my technophobe wife uses SuSE and a Knoppix CD can come in handy for a few things. > There may be one that fits your >needs best out of the available choices. > >If I have to use Linux (i.e. at work) I use Debian. It suffers a bit >from FSF/GNU ideology, but it is less brain dead then e.g. Suse. It is >easy to update / maintain and as stable and consistent as Linux can be. I've used Slackware (ancient), Caldera (1.3, 2.2, 2.3 - it was a really good distro back in it's day), I'd had good luck with RedHat 9 (but absolutely *nothing* later than that)... I've not really monkeyed with Debian much at all, except the installer sucks; and it didn't much care for my (admittedly very odd) Crusoe-based laptop. My wife's SuSE box is rock stable, and bog simple for her to use. It's all ooey-GUI and happety-go-lucky so she can browse her Internut & whatnot, and it's pretty easy to maintain (printers, etc.). If you're looking for a desktop Linux, this will prolly fit your bill. It does, however, suffer from bloat (as most nowadays do)... >Fortunately Unix gives me the freedom of using somthing like fvwm2. Whooohoooo! Someone else loves my favorite Window Manager! ;-) > > 3) Systems still suffer from rot, just like Windows does. >A system that gets used is "aging". That is the way live goes. It is a >law of nature. There is no way to work around it beside not using the >system. I've upgraded more because I had to remain compatible with new devices out (think USB & whatnot) than to actually improve usability of the machine itself. [[ Oh, and the Model 100 emulator for Linux needs glibc 2.3, and my 2-year-old LFS system had glibc 2.2; so it wouldn't compile. :-/ ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 1 12:53:23 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:53:23 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010a01c5f6a8$82756f00$0401010a@jfcl.com> >Adrian Graham wrote: > The 9600s we look after are all SCSI but you could swap out > the SCSI modules for others IIRC. The SCSI module will say > what it is if you open the drive up and check the card cage > in the back. The interface board in mine is Kennedy #7113, Rev D. It doesn't say anything about SCSI that I can find, but then it doesn't mention Pertec either :-) It also has a nice little blue tag that says "Tests Good, 8/29/93" :-) It does have two 50 pin edge card connectors labeled J1 and J2 - certainly looks like Pertec to me. By coincidence SCSI is also 50 pins, but it doesn't normally use a card edge connector. > I think we've got the service guide; I can ask the lads that > look after them. Thanks - I'd appreciate it. Bob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 13:02:40 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:02:40 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/12/05 15:11, "Cini, Richard" wrote: > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > By now you'll have read the 'there's no such thing as best' replies :) I started with Slackware and turbolinux in 98 or 99, then went for RedHat 7.1 because it seemed more manageable to me, but an online update to 7.3 broke it horribly and took ages for me to fix it so when I changed servers I went for SuSE and I've been using that ever since. Without KDE running it just ticks over on a 733 PIII (compaq ML350). Desktop-wise most of the distros try to point you in the direction of Gnome or KDE; I preferred the way Gnome looked but KDE is better if you want a windows-r-us type desktop. I've had a Knoppix based live CD for ages now in use as a troubleshooting tool for misbehaving windows boxes, but with the arrival of a 512mb USB key I rooted around for a distro that was still full featured but would install on said key and I ended up with SLAX - www.slax.org. Slackware based and designed to be fully modular so you can put apps in the modules directory and they'll install at boot time, when you don't need them any more just remove them. Nice desktop too, based on KDE 3.4 I think. With that and OpenOffice V2 you've got a very good desktop peecee replacement. (Jules, there's at least one wrapper for GiMP V2.x that makes it look like Photoshop, it's called GiMPshop.....) At home now I'm using a Mac Mini; my peecee only gets turned on these days to watch TV :) A From Trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Dec 1 13:07:59 2005 From: Trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (Joe Heck) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:07:59 -0500 Subject: RLV12 located with cable In-Reply-To: <74691D0E-037E-4312-A095-B37FC4DA82BF@xlisper.mv.com> References: <74691D0E-037E-4312-A095-B37FC4DA82BF@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <438F4A0F.1080306@splab.cas.neu.edu> David Betz wrote: > I have a wire that is broken on the Berg connector that plugs into my > DLV12 controller for my RL01 drive. How do I remove one of the pins > from the Berg connector so that I can reattach the broken wire? Is it > possible to repair these connectors or do I have to replace it? > > Sure enough, I finally found my RLV12 with the ribbon cable and adapter. I noticed your email about getting it running already, so does that mean you don't need a cable any more? The RLV12 was at a customer site that I had already looked at, but apparently not thoroughly enough. Joe Heck From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Dec 1 13:15:30 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:15:30 -0500 Subject: RLV12 located with cable In-Reply-To: <438F4A0F.1080306@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <74691D0E-037E-4312-A095-B37FC4DA82BF@xlisper.mv.com> <438F4A0F.1080306@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: I don't need an RL01/RL02 cable anymore but I could use the cables/ panels needed to connect an RQDX3 to an MFM hard drive. Alternatively, a BA23 would be nice. Have one of those to sell? Thanks! David On Dec 1, 2005, at 2:07 PM, Joe Heck wrote: > David Betz wrote: > >> I have a wire that is broken on the Berg connector that plugs into >> my DLV12 controller for my RL01 drive. How do I remove one of the >> pins from the Berg connector so that I can reattach the broken >> wire? Is it possible to repair these connectors or do I have to >> replace it? >> >> > Sure enough, I finally found my RLV12 with the ribbon cable and > adapter. I noticed your email about getting it running already, so > does that mean you don't need a cable any more? > > The RLV12 was at a customer site that I had already looked at, but > apparently not thoroughly enough. > > Joe Heck > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 13:21:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:21:38 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512011121380045.008023ED@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 1:01 PM Allison wrote: >Same here. There are a few that barely run on anything less than p-III >class hardware. > >Since I have an abundance of older 486class stuff I use Freebsd 2.2.6 >and a 7 year old copy of Slackware or Caldera OpenlinuxV2.3 when I >want a linux box. For the "look what we can do with a single floppy boot" category, it's pretty hard to beat the old QNX demos: http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 13:23:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:23:14 +0000 Subject: Simple 8-bit D-A / load meter? In-Reply-To: <438F3DA5.504@gjcp.net> References: <438F3DA5.504@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/1/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... where I thought things were, but I appear to have lost an old file > > that described how to make a simple D-A that one could hang off of an > > 8-bit I/O port to generate a voltage from approx 0 VDC to +5VDC. Does > > Off the top of my head, look in the top left bit of a TB303 circuit > diagram where the 7-bit converter to generate the VCO control voltage > is. Googling for "tb303.gif" should bring it up. I did eventually find that at http://www.hylander.us/images/schematics/roland/tb303.gif Thanks for the hint. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 1 13:22:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512011927.OAA03628@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> There is no best Linux distribution. > Yes there is. > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > [...] > I've been doing LFS for 2 years now, and now I can't stand *any* > other distro for my own use; altho my technophobe wife uses SuSE and > a Knoppix CD can come in handy for a few things. It sounds as though you already know of two things for which LFS is *not* the best. > Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, For some applications that is a showstopper. For others it's "merely" an unnecessary annoyance. There is no globally best just-about-anything. At least when a selection exists at all. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 1 14:27:08 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:27:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Dec 01, 2005 10:11:56 AM Message-ID: <20051201202708.AFB9B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cini, Richard once stated: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. Mainly desktop usage? Server? Both? How much Unix do you know? Do you care to know? One thing I've found is that the distributions that come with some form of automatic package management (like Fedora Core with yum, or Gentoo with emerge) that unless you update every hour on the hour, you will soon be unable to update at all since older versions (where "old" is defined as "older than three days") are no longer supported (and even then, doing it hourly may not be frequent enough) [1]. -spc (Who tends towards using tar balls and forgoing the whole package crap ... ) [1] Hyperbole, but I have a few Gentoo servers that are now unable to emerge properly since they're "too old" apparently (and I only emerge stuff when needed, not for gratuitous upgrading. [2] [2] Which slowly consumes disk space for the system as software packages tend to bloat, and there's always a risk of an upgrade breaking an existing setup. From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 1 14:29:47 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:29:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Dec 01, 2005 10:11:56 AM Message-ID: <20051201202948.0827273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cini, Richard once stated: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. Oh, and if you go with Fedora Core, be wary of SELinux. Not that it's buggy, but that it's too safe and secure and if you aren't used to it, debugging problems becomes a real mess. -spc (i.e. permissions look okay, but the program still doesn't open that one file ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 13:48:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:48:48 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? Message-ID: <0IQU00JFE4BATW90@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:21:38 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/1/2005 at 1:01 PM Allison wrote: > >>Same here. There are a few that barely run on anything less than p-III >>class hardware. >> >>Since I have an abundance of older 486class stuff I use Freebsd 2.2.6 >>and a 7 year old copy of Slackware or Caldera OpenlinuxV2.3 when I >>want a linux box. > >For the "look what we can do with a single floppy boot" category, it's >pretty hard to beat the old QNX demos: > >http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html > >Cheers, >Chuck Then there was NewDeal Office. All you needed was dos3 or higher. The version 3 demo I have ran ok on 40mb or less of disk. Allison From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 1 15:02:50 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:02:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 01, 2005 05:53:41 PM Message-ID: <20051201210250.667D273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > I just wish the concept of a package was more of a file-level thing, so that > you end of with a system just comprising the bits you really need and use - > coupled with some sort of common mechanism which can tell you when you're > trying to do something from a front-end script / GUI app for which you're > missing required modules / libraries / other apps of course. Possibly have the > ability for the system to automatically go fetch the needed bits from the 'net > too. I just wish the concept of a package was more consistent and took into account what you actually *have* installed. A month ago I configured a server at work with MRTG [1]. It was failing form some mysterious reason [2] and in order to figure out what was going on, I decided to hack the source to one of the programs to provide more informative logging information. I get the source, do the configure dance, and find I'm missing the GD [3] development package (the GD binaries already installed). This being a Fedora Core system, I can use 'yum'. Only I have to figure out the magical incantation to get the GD development package installed. Turned out to be 'yum install gd-devel'. So I do that. And I ended up installing the X Windows Development system, which I neither want, nor use, on this headless Linux server buried deep in our data center. WHY Fedora Core thought I needed the X Windows Development system for GD is beyond me (since X isn't even *installed* on the server. Oh, and yum "helpfully" updated a score of packages that have updated since I last ran yum some twenty minutes before or something silly like that). -spc (Oh, and heaven forbid you don't upgrade every hour, since (in my opintion) both Fedora Core and Gentoo seem to move their repositories whenever the mood strikes them [4]) [1] Multi Router Traffic Grapher. Okay program to monitor bandwith usage in various routers, but configuration is a bitch. Cacti is a *much* nicer program to use. [2] It turned out that when the system was installed, the various MRTG scripts were already installed in "/etc/cron.d/mrtg", *even though it wasn't configured and did nothing!* Not knowing this, I added an MRTG cronjob via "crontab -e" (which uses /var/spool/cron/crontab/root in this case). So now I had two (2) MRTGs running, overwriting the log files. Sometimes these package managers are "too" helpful. [3] Not sure what GD stands for, but it's a library that allows one to create GIFs/JPEGs/PNGs programmically (create a canvas, draw to it, then write the canvas to a file with the specified format). It's used quite often by CGI programs to draw graphics. GD itself does not use X Windows. [4] Me, bitter? Naaaaaaahhhhh ... From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Dec 1 14:16:11 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 20:16:11 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640512011216p4078af9fh@mail.gmail.com> On 01/12/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? > > > > Rich > > > > I would go with some of the others and say SuSE, It does depend on what you want it to do. But as a Windows replacement it probably is the most flexible, It pretty much does plug and play. Although quite a lot of of files are in different places (and different names). Give it a go. If you're not sure download a shit load of live-cd's and try them. This has the advantage of knowing where you stand with device support. If it detects your sound card, printer, usb hub etc. with the live-cd you know you're not going to have spend ages trying to recompile the kernel or modules and then find out it doesn't work anyway. I have to say that I have settled on Netbsd myself..... Dan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 14:48:12 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:48:12 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512011216p4078af9fh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 20:16, "Dan Williams" wrote: > If you're not sure download a shit load of live-cd's and try them. Here's a good place to start: http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php A From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Dec 1 15:11:28 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:11:28 -0500 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? Message-ID: <5a66145a79ce.5a79ce5a6614@direcway.com> I have the ADVENT files for PDP-8 (from the diagpack2.RK05 image) but it won't run under SIMH (simulator halts on error). Does anyone have the load/run instructions? thanks Charles From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Dec 1 15:12:51 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:12:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, I forgot to mention that I've quite often had people recommend I > try Debian over Slackware before. You still get the problem of the Gnome / > KDE choice though, I suppose. There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is not to play :-) Alexey From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 1 15:30:10 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:30:10 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:11 AM -0500 12/1/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home >as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the >group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora >Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > Any thoughts from the group? How familiar are you with Unix in general? As others have pointed out, add SUSE, and Debian to your list of OS's to try. Personally, it sounds like you're targeting this from the correct angle already, download several distro's and try them all. Then go with what you like best. I've personally used the following distro's over the years; the original boot/root disk combo, SLS, Slackware, Red Hat, Mandrake, SUSE, Debian. While I do still have a couple systems with Linux installed, I don't really use Linux at home anymore (haven't had one turned on in *months*). Mac OS X pretty much takes care of all of my Unix needs at home. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 1 15:36:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:36:27 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <438F6CDB.5070509@yahoo.co.uk> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Actually, I forgot to mention that I've quite often had people >> recommend I try Debian over Slackware before. You still get the >> problem of the Gnome / KDE choice though, I suppose. > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > not to play :-) Heh, sure. :-) I used to be a fan of both fvwm2 and Afterstep. But it is useful sometimes when desktop apps can interact with each other, I just wish Gnome and KDE weren't such bloated monstrosities though. I suspect it's a case of bad design and too many people working on their own little aspect of the system, rather than there being any grand plan for the desktop environment as a whole - but in the open source world it's hard to do a big project to any kind of plan. I gave up on Gnome a long time ago because it just wouldn't work right in a networked environment where you might have a Gnome app running from one system but displayed on another (which of course is one of the main benefits of X) - KDE at least didn't have the same problems, although it still suffers from the bloat factor. Of course in a few years Microsoft will 'invent' Linux. We'll get a consistent desktop (but still a bad one), and a system that's inherently unstable. But the Microsoft-buying public will lap it up, thinking how clever Microsoft are for inventing something that - unbeknown to them - looks oddly like UNIX. :-) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 1 15:41:42 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:41:42 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 9:12 PM +0000 12/1/05, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Actually, I forgot to mention that I've quite often had people >>recommend I try Debian over Slackware before. You still get the >>problem of the Gnome / KDE choice though, I suppose. > >There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat >problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get >AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the >box on most distros. At work I actually use a pre-V1 beta of Afterstep! I started using it, when it was current on an RS/6000 running AIX V3.x, and now I'm using it on SUSE Enterprise Linux. The sad thing is, that these days, even Motif and 'mwm' are fairly light weight compared to stuff like Gnome and KDE! >The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is not to play :-) I like this statement, it is pretty much the best description of my feelings on the subject that I've heard. At work I now have a really nice fast Linux box, BUT, I need a *LOT* of RAM for the one application that I run, plus besides that application all I really need are *lots* of xterm's, XEmac's, and Firefox. At home if I'm going to run Linux I'm doing it on fairly slow hardware these days, and all I'd be running would be SIMH or KLH10, at which point I don't even really need X-Windows. As a result, from my point of view, both KDE and Gnome have a hideous amount of bloat, and I don't need any of it. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 16:58:09 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:58:09 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F8001.9040205@oldskool.org> Cini, Richard wrote: > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > Any thoughts from the group? Well, my first thought is "Why did you just ask for a *nux advocacy flamewar?" My second thought is that you didn't provide enough information on what you are doing with your Windows desktop that you want to keep doing under Linux. I can't properly recommend a particular distribution until I know what it is you do with your existing OS setup. You also didn't mention what your existing *nix competency level was at. Provide information on those last two holes and I'd be more than happy to give you some recommendations. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 17:07:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:07:40 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <438F823C.3050304@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: >> There is no best Linux distribution. > > Yes there is. > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > > Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, but then you How is this different from gentoo? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 1 17:10:14 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:10:14 -0700 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > not to play :-) > So what does real unix use for a GUI? > Alexey From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 1 18:16:31 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:16:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 01, 2005 04:10:14 PM Message-ID: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > > not to play :-) > > > So what does real unix use for a GUI? X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P -spc (That's pretty much all I've ever used X for ... well, except for Mosaic/Netscape/Mozilla as well these past few years ... ) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 17:19:36 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 23:19:36 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F6CDB.5070509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 21:36, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > Of course in a few years Microsoft will 'invent' Linux. We'll get a consistent > desktop (but still a bad one), and a system that's inherently unstable. But > the Microsoft-buying public will lap it up, thinking how clever Microsoft are > for inventing something that - unbeknown to them - looks oddly like UNIX. :-) > It's called Longhorn^Wvista and will be out just as soon as, er, they can make it work. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 17:20:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:20:45 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <0IQU00JFE4BATW90@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQU00JFE4BATW90@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <438F854D.9050908@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > > Then there was NewDeal Office. All you needed was dos3 or higher. The > version 3 demo I have ran ok on 40mb or less of disk. Ah yes, previously Geoworks Ensemble, previously Geoworks, previously Geoworks on the C64 and Apple II. Geoworks 1.x running on a 512K Tandy 1000 with 10MB hard drive blew me away so much that I sought out Geoworks on Apple Ii and C64 just to see if it actually functioned on those platforms :-) The x86 versions ran in 640k, had a Motif-like WM, and had something akin to display postscript running as the display system which meant the entire system by design was WYSIWYG. In 1990 this was amazing. If Microsoft didn't pressure Packard Bell to stop using Geoworks more people might have known about that product... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 17:23:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:23:03 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <438F85D7.808@oldskool.org> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P You know what a mouse is used for, right? It's used to point to the xterm you want to type in :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 1 17:29:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:29:11 -0700 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Adrian Graham wrote: >It's called Longhorn^Wvista and will be out just as soon as, er, they can >make it work. > > Well only if they move to Texas! Runs and ducks ... From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 17:30:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:30:14 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 7:16 PM spc at conman.org wrote: > X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-... ) Increasingly, there are programs that require X for no particular good reason. For example, why does RealPlayer 10 require it? If you want to play an audio (not video) clip, why should you be required to load X? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 17:30:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:30:35 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/30/2005 at 5:07 PM der Mouse wrote: >>...for example, it may be that "modern" floppy drives are capable of >>things that drives current when the gadget was produced aren't. > > I've actually found somewhat the reverse to be true, at least as far as > floppy drives go. Or am I missing something when I don't succeed in > reading an 800K Mac floppy in my nice shiny new USB drive? Well, to be fair, it's the *controller* you should be blaming and not the drive. I'm sure floppy drive technology hasn't changed in 15 years, but the controllers and software support sure has. For the record: It is impossible to write 800K mac floppies (and 880K Amiga disks) if you have a traditional NEC-based floppy controller. Through extreme clever trickery you can *READ* Amiga 880K disks (Disk2FDI), but so far nobody has been able to read Mac 800K disks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 16:36:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:36:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512010127.RAA17752@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 30, 5 05:27:00 pm Message-ID: > > I don't know what you consider to be 'original Mac', but the Mac+ sound > > hardware was a pulse-width modulator loaded from a spare byte in the > > video RAM area at the end of each video line. > > I think we're looking at this from different angles. I'm looking at it from > the view of what the Toolbox offers for music playback and synthesis; it > seems you and Jim are actually talking about what the Toolbox is driving. You must know me by now... I probably don't even have the relevant volume of Inside Macintosh, but I am not against taking a soldering iron and multimeter to a bit of hardware ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 17:13:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:13:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: <200512010207310241.1C0DDF05@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 1, 5 02:07:31 am Message-ID: > > I found why my PCTD 3 tape controller was defying my attempts to probe > it--the XC2064-50 FPGA seems to be dead as a doornail. Regardless of > signal inputs, it remains stubbornly inactive--i.e., my logic analyzer says > that none of the identifiable outputs changes state. [I've never sued the XC2000 series, a lot of this is based on my experiences with the XC3000s, but anyway) I think the XC2000 series are old enough to be RAM based, that is they have to load their configuration from some external device at power-on. There are probably 2 ways (at least) to do this, either by connecting it to an EPROM (whereupon the FPGA will generate sequential addresses to the EPROM and read in the data) or by giving it a serial clock/data bitstream, e.g. from a microcontroller or a special Xilinx serial ROM chip. You should be able to see some activity on the pins of the configuration memory device (if, for example, it loads from EPROM and the addresses are not changing, it's a fair bet that the FPGA has died). There may also be a pin that changes state to say the thing has been configured, if there is you could look at that one. The good thing (for you) is that if the FPGA is dead, it's not a custom or programmed part (the 'program' is in the external memory device), it can thereofre be replaced fairly easily (but note that 'improved' versions, with odd suffixes, may well not be compatible, and would need diffeerent configuration data). > > Since DMA and interrupt logic (as well as configuration) is contained in > the FPGA, attempting to read from any I/O port returned FF. A jumper > bypassing the FPGA for IO read, shows that the drive status lines are > indeed present and readable. Similarly, writing to the appropriate I/O > address causes the expected drive line to wiggle. > > Since I don't need soft configurability (only for IRQ and DMA; the I/O > address is set via DIP switch), I may remove the FPGA and substitute some > TTL. I haven't decided yet. Hang on, this thing isn't configured from the host computer is it (e.g. by the device dricer loading a bitstream into the chip)? If it is, it will appaer totally dead until that program's been run. > > But do old FPGA's just quietly go belly-up? Or is there something about Any chip can fail.... I've had XC3000s die. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 16:48:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:48:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: <438E5299.1040405@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 1, 5 01:32:09 am Message-ID: > > > Random failure of the weekend was a UC3844 IC in a switchmode power supply - > with a very loud bang, the entire top of the chip blew off, but there's no > *obvious* sign of any other failure within the supply. This deos not mean there are no other component failurs. This sort of thing is very common actially. A typical SMSPU circuit contains a section something like this HT+ --- | ) ) Chopper transformer primary COntrol IC ) (Part) ) | ------------+ base resistor / | (~10 Ohms)_ |/ Out |----/\/\/------------| Chopper transistor (NPN) | |\ | > | | I Sense |------------------------+ | | | / Gnd | \ Sense resistor (~0.5 Ohm) -------------+ / | \ | | +---------------------------------+ | --------- HT common There are likely to be more diodes, snubber networks, etc, but this is a start. HT+ and HT common are the 2 ends of the mains smoothing capacitor and have about 400V between them What happens is that the chopper trnasistor goes short-circuit all ways round. The HT line is now effectivel shorted out via the transformer primary (very low DC resistance), the shorted transistor, and the sense resistor. The latter normally burns out, it is likely to be a 'safety' flameproof resistor so you may not see any signs of failure. If you are unlucky, some of the PCB tacks fail as well. The chopper control IC now sees about 400V between its ground and its output/current sense pins. It generally expires esplosively. I would be very suprised if an IC failed that violently without there being other component failures. > > This was one of two such supplies in a Sun RAID disk controller; the two do > current-sharing under normal conditions - but the unit will run on one supply > if the other fails, which is exactly what happened here. Leads me to > *tentatively* say that the RAID unit itself is 100% and the failure was > totally in the PSU. Very likely. Most SMPUS failures result in no output, not over-high outputs (although watch out for 2-stage supplies if the regulator chopper fails!). > Shame Sun don't publish schematics! It wouldn't do you a lot of good if they did, the supply is almost certainly bought-in and there wouldn't be a schematic in the service manual anyway. But it can't be that hard to draw out, can it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 17:16:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:16:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <438ED109.701@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 1, 5 10:31:37 am Message-ID: > > I find those sort of tips totally useless!. There could be many causes of > > 'no vertical deflection' (or whatever), the fact that _once_ it was > > caused by a particular set of components doesn't mean it always is. > > I can't agree there. When I used to repair TVs and video recorders and > the like, I (like others) tended to find that different makes had their > own particular favourite stock faults. If you run a reapir shop, I can see the use of them. Probably 90% of all fauts are 'stock faults' and can be found in the database. It'll get those units off the bench quickly. And I've heard of repair shops that look for the stock faults and if it's something else, they return the unit as being beyond repair (OUCH!). However, they seem to be a lot less use when it's a one-off unit which you need to repair no matter what (like a classic computer). You're going to have to do real fault diagnosis sometimes anyway, it doesn't make it much more difficult to do it properly every time. > In that case, for example, if you got a Ferguson ICC9-chassis TV on the > bench with no EW correction and excessive width, you'd go straight for a > particular electrolytic somewhere around the scan drive circuit. > Annoyingly enough I can't remember which one and my telly has just > started doing that... Alternatively you could get out he schematic, _understnad it_ and work out what components could cause this problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 16:53:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:53:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at Nov 30, 5 08:08:40 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for all the advice, and no, I didn't find any offense whatsoever in > your post. I think you for the advice and I checked that book out from the You;'d be suprised. Some people take offence at being told what they consider to be obvious. > library here at work (I work at a community college) It''s not a cheap book, but I'd strongly advise buying your own copy. It is not a book you are going to grow out of quickly (if at all, I consider that I have a reasonable understnading of electronics, but I still often lookt in TAoE). It's one of those books that I think every hacker should own (along with the 'Minix book' we discussed last week, K&R, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 1 17:04:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:04:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <200512010231.SAA27538@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Nov 30, 5 06:31:42 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > I looked at the schematic and the parts you'd indicated. > It looks like one of them was one off and was R55 and not > D11. From the looks, it might be that you have other failures > in the supply. You've indicated R11, R21 and R55. These > are all part of the circuit that drives the primary switcher > transistor through T3. Having looked at the printset, the first thing that struck me is that these are all high power resistors (2 or 3 watt rating). They would naturally run hot, therefore, and may look discoloured without there being anything wrong with them. Before we dive into this PSU, I would be interested to know if the thing produces any output voltage, and if those 3 resistors test bad on an ohmmeter. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 17:34:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:34:29 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512010127.RAA17752@floodgap.com> References: <200512010127.RAA17752@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <438F8885.1020008@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>Neither really. The original Mac sound hardware had four *synthesis* voices, >>>which could be fed a waveform and act as a primitive wavetable synthesizer. >>>This produces four-note polyphony. >> >>I don't know what you consider to be 'original Mac', but the Mac+ sound >>hardware was a pulse-width modulator loaded from a spare byte in the >>video RAM area at the end of each video line. > > I think we're looking at this from different angles. I'm looking at it from > the view of what the Toolbox offers for music playback and synthesis; it > seems you and Jim are actually talking about what the Toolbox is driving. Yes. I'm primarily a software tinkerer. I don't design the hardware but I sure love to make it do things it wasn't originally intended to do :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 1 17:40:36 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:40:36 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F6CDB.5070509@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201183925.04751008@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > >Of course in a few years Microsoft will 'invent' Linux. We'll get a >consistent desktop (but still a bad one), and a system that's inherently >unstable. But the Microsoft-buying public will lap it up, thinking how >clever Microsoft are for inventing something that - unbeknown to them - >looks oddly like UNIX. :-) > Impossible. M$ only has a finite number of monkeys. [[ Seen somewhere on the 'net aeons ago, unknown original attribution anymore... ]] Prost, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 1 17:47:40 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:47:40 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F823C.3050304@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201184059.047243b8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >>>There is no best Linux distribution. >>Yes there is. >>http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ >>Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, but then you > >How is this different from gentoo? Linux from Scratch: Read book, learn commands, learn what your compiling & why, learn how to set up the applications & system by hand, learn lots of other stuff along the way, oops twice due to typoes, learn to fix it, drink lots of beer, then have a functional, fast Linux system, and know *why* it is. Gentoo: Insert CD in machine with 'Net connectivity, hit "go", wait a bunch whilst it downloads lots of stuff & patches it with insecure shiznit, compiles it, then it says "Done," then you reboot and have a (hopefully) running Linux that's generally not that secure tho you're not sure *why* it isn't & you generally haven't learned much during the process. Yea, I'm kinda cynical about the whole emerge thingy, but seeing how Gentoo bastardizes qmail and then the poor buggers ask why they're having problems because they know nothing about the whole deal... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 1 17:48:07 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:48:07 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201182501.03ab67e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner may have mentioned these words: >It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > > > Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > > > > > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > > > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > > > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > > > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > > > not to play :-) > > > > > So what does real unix use for a GUI? > > X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P You obviously forgot the *real* Spider solitare game... a *must* on any system I build! And it's ontopic - the last changes made to the source code for that were back in '90! > -spc (That's pretty much all I've ever used X for ... well, except > for Mosaic/Netscape/Mozilla as well these past few years ... ) I'm starting to learn PCB under linux now for a few things I've been wanting to design for years now -- and in this month's Linux Journal (just got it today) it outlines how to make stuff using gEDA, of which PCB is a part of... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 17:51:36 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:51:36 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 5:30 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Well, to be fair, it's the *controller* you should be blaming and not the >drive. I'm sure floppy drive technology hasn't changed in 15 years, but >the controllers and software support sure has. In a USB drive, where does the drive end and the controller start? And, for the record, many older drives tend to be better constructed with some notable exceptions (e.g. Chinon). >For the record: It is impossible to write 800K mac floppies (and 880K >Amiga disks) if you have a traditional NEC-based floppy controller. You know, I told someone that 10 years ago and was called a liar. I wonder if the parallel-port kludge will let the Mac 800K format through--though that's not using the NEC controller to do anything but move the heads and select the drive, something that the parallel port could also do easily. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 1 18:00:30 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:00:30 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201183925.04751008@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/05 23:40, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > Impossible. M$ only has a finite number of monkeys. > > [[ Seen somewhere on the 'net aeons ago, unknown original attribution > anymore... ]] I still love the sig of someone here who I'm embarassed to admit I can't remember (dave dunfield?) who has the sig of 'a computer without a microsoft operating system is like a dog without a pile of bricks tied to its head' Marvellous. Management would like to apologise for the lack of capital letters in this post apart from the ones added by my mailer. Tonight I can't be arsed to hit the shift key! Oops I just did. a From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 18:02:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:02:47 -0500 Subject: Part question...6845 CRTC Message-ID: <0IQU00AYXG2IX3X1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> I've never used the 6845 CRTC but over the years I've heard the Hitachi part is a better version than the older Motorola one. Lacking a datasheet for Hitachi what is the differnce? I do have the moto part data sheet. Allison From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 1 18:13:20 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:13:20 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I'm pretty happy with Fedora Core. My old (non-SSE) FC3 machine get patched nightly and hasn't been rebooted in months. I'm in process of installing FC4 on an x86_64 system. I use Gentoo on older Macs. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 1 18:13:50 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:13:50 -0700 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <438F91BE.2070506@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/1/2005 at 7:16 PM spc at conman.org wrote: > > > >> X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-... ) >> >> > >Increasingly, there are programs that require X for no particular good >reason. For example, why does RealPlayer 10 require it? If you want to >play an audio (not video) clip, why should you be required to load X? > > So you can watch a stupid dancing lights display screen ... nobody wants just music. Now if they wanted to usefull ... a nice transitor radio and a swimsuit girl would display walking on the beach instead for 60's music. :D The stupid thing is things like real player are not open source so you can't built it the way you want! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 1 18:12:03 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:12:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 Message-ID: <200512020012.QAA21069@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > >However, they seem to be a lot less use when it's a one-off unit which >you need to repair no matter what (like a classic computer). You're going >to have to do real fault diagnosis sometimes anyway, it doesn't make it >much more difficult to do it properly every time. > Hi Once many years ago while working for Intel, I was called in to help fix a number of what we used to call yellow dot boards ( failed but not repaired after third rework and had a yellow dot placed on them ). The yellow dot inventory had a sudden jump so someone needed some additional help. The boards had a lot of analog circuits on them because they had a discrete component PLL used for the disk controller. I had the fellow from system test with me to take notes on how to diagnose complicated failures on these boards. As it turned out, about 90% were caused by a mix up in the parts loaded on the boards. A low voltage zener was placed in a number of locations that expected signal diodes. This especially effected the balanced mixer used in the phase detector. After some time of carefully showing the system test fellow a number of scope signals and carefully explaining the reasons I was looking at particular locations, I happened to glance at his notes. It went something like this: D3, D5, D8, D20, D21 There were no symptoms and nothing of what I showed him about scope information. I soon realized that he was just interested in a list of parts that I indicated as causing problems and wasn't even paying attention to anything else I was doing. The worst part was that since this was a one time parts mix up, it probably would never happen again so that his list was virtually worthless. I told him this but that didn't seem to ring a bell with him. Dwight From labomb_s at yahoo.com Thu Dec 1 18:26:00 2005 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Part question...6845 CRTC In-Reply-To: <0IQU00AYXG2IX3X1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051202002600.67441.qmail@web50713.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Allison, > I've never used the 6845 CRTC but over the years > I've heard the Hitachi > part is a better version than the older Motorola > one. Lacking a datasheet > for Hitachi what is the differnce? Take a look at: http://andercheran.aiind.upv.es/~amstrad/docs/crtcnew.html It appears that the Moto part it a 'Type 2' and the Hitachi part is a 'Type 0'. The differences between each type (as well as others) appear to be detailed in the 'CRTC Differences' section of this web site. Scott __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 18:26:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:26:46 -0800 Subject: Part question...6845 CRTC In-Reply-To: <0IQU00AYXG2IX3X1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQU00AYXG2IX3X1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512011626460260.01977E02@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 7:02 PM Allison wrote: >I've never used the 6845 CRTC but over the years I've heard the Hitachi >part is a better version than the older Motorola one. Lacking a datasheet >for Hitachi what is the differnce? > >I do have the moto part data sheet. Not a whole lot; less than between the Moto and other vendors. Primarily, some of the write-only registers of the Moto part are read/write on the Hitachi. Program for the Moto and you'll be safe. Here's a summary of sorts: http://andercheran.aiind.upv.es/~amstrad/docs/crtcnew.html Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 18:50:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:50:36 -0500 Subject: Part question...6845 CRTC Message-ID: <0IQU00EBVIA76PC9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Part question...6845 CRTC > From: Scott LaBombard > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:26:00 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi Allison, > >> I've never used the 6845 CRTC but over the years >> I've heard the Hitachi >> part is a better version than the older Motorola >> one. Lacking a datasheet >> for Hitachi what is the differnce? > >Take a look at: > >http://andercheran.aiind.upv.es/~amstrad/docs/crtcnew.html > >It appears that the Moto part it a 'Type 2' and the >Hitachi part is a 'Type 0'. The differences between >each type (as well as others) appear to be detailed in >the 'CRTC Differences' section of this web site. That helps, Thanks now I can go to the moto data and feel comfortable. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 1 19:00:01 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:00:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F854D.9050908@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 1, 5 05:20:45 pm" Message-ID: <200512020100.RAA11856@floodgap.com> > Ah yes, previously Geoworks Ensemble, previously Geoworks, previously > Geoworks on the C64 and Apple II. Actually, it was just plain GEOS (note caps) on the C64 and Apple II, but mostly the C64; the Apple II version never took off. Obviously as you discovered, GeoWorks and GEOS had nothing in common except for the company that wrote them. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Those wise enough to avoid politics are governed by those who aren't. ------ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 1 19:00:34 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:00:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Dec 1, 5 04:10:14 pm" Message-ID: <200512020100.RAA11608@floodgap.com> > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > > not to play :-) > So what does real unix use for a GUI? Aqua. (scnr) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of little minds to shrink. -- Carl Sandburg ------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 1 19:04:05 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:04:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051201170150.O47897@shell.lmi.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > >It's called Longhorn^Wvista and will be out just as soon as, er, they can > >make it work. On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, woodelf wrote: > Well only if they move to Texas! > Runs and ducks ... Hey! I teach at Vista College http://merritt.edu/~fcisin After 30 years, Vista College has just voted to change its name. (to Berkeley Community College. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 1 19:08:38 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051201170538.Q47897@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > You;'d be suprised. Some people take offence at being told what they > consider to be obvious. SOME of those folk are surprisingly skilled and experienced, but hide their light under a bushel, and occasionally write posts that can be misconstrued/misparsed as having come from a complete newbie. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Dec 1 19:12:57 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:12:57 -0500 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <5a66145a79ce.5a79ce5a6614@direcway.com> References: <5a66145a79ce.5a79ce5a6614@direcway.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051201200910.0230e6d8@rickmurphy.net> At 04:11 PM 12/1/2005, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: >I have the ADVENT files for PDP-8 (from the diagpack2.RK05 image) but >it won't run under SIMH (simulator halts on error). >Does anyone have the load/run instructions? Since nobody (including me, the developer) seems to have the original RALF-format source files for OS/8 ADVENT, you've got to be careful to replicate the environment used to build the .SV file. Normally, the ADVENT.SV assumes that the files are stored on SYS: - if they're moved elsewhere, the .SV image won't work. However, it'll generate an error, not kill the simulator in my experience. Seems to me that there's something badly wrong with your SIMH or the system running it if you can't run ADVENT off of Rick Moore's diagnostic RK05.. -Rick From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 1 19:30:37 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051201172635.A47897@shell.lmi.net> > >For the record: It is impossible to write 800K mac floppies (and 880K > >Amiga disks) if you have a traditional NEC-based floppy controller. On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You know, I told someone that 10 years ago and was called a liar. I I've been "lying" for 20+ years. But there is ALWAYS somebody who has heard about some program that "will do it", reading PC disks with an Apple][, reading the inner tracks of an 8" by cutting it down to 5.25", etc. > wonder if the parallel-port kludge will let the Mac 800K format > through--though that's not using the NEC controller to do anything but move > the heads and select the drive, something that the parallel port could also > do easily. Disk2fdi does claim specifically that. But it is NOT included in the free "demo" version. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 19:36:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:36:52 -0800 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512011736520188.01D7AA97@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 11:13 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Hang on, this thing isn't configured from the host computer is it (e.g. >by the device dricer loading a bitstream into the chip)? If it is, it >will appaer totally dead until that program's been run. Uh huh--no E/EP/ROM on the board at all--just the XC2064 and a bunch of TTL. It appears that the device driver loads the bitstream. Of course, I don't have and can't locate the device driver. I think it's time to pull out the soldering iron and get rid of the blasted thing so I have something that I CAN program. It seems exceedingly unlikely that a driver is going to materialize out of the aether at this point. Let this be a warning to anyone with a Chi Corporation/Computer Logics Pertec tape controller--if you don't have the driver, you don't have anything that can be easily used. Both the PCTD3 and the PCTD16 use externally-loaded FPGAs. Bummer. Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 1 19:39:27 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:39:27 -0800 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20051201200910.0230e6d8@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <013f01c5f6e1$3f793630$0401010a@jfcl.com> > Since nobody (including me, the developer) seems to have the original > RALF-format source files for OS/8 ADVENT, you've got to be careful to > replicate the environment used to build the .SV file. Normally, the > ADVENT.SV assumes that the files are stored on SYS: ... ADVENT uses overlays (most FORTRAN programs did) and, although it isn't well documented, overlaid programs must be run from the SYS: device. It's because the overlay code assumes that the device handler for the overlay file is resident and it can't load it if it isn't. A device that's co-resident with SYS: should also work. There's some more information about running ADVENTure on the WinEight simulator here: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120_Adventure.htm Bob From ryan at hack.net Thu Dec 1 19:54:19 2005 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:54:19 -0600 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: <200512011736520188.01D7AA97@10.0.0.252> References: <200512011736520188.01D7AA97@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <438FA94B.5060906@hack.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/1/2005 at 11:13 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >> Hang on, this thing isn't configured from the host computer is it (e.g. >> by the device dricer loading a bitstream into the chip)? If it is, it >> will appaer totally dead until that program's been run. >> > > Uh huh--no E/EP/ROM on the board at all--just the XC2064 and a bunch of > TTL. It appears that the device driver loads the bitstream. Of course, I > don't have and can't locate the device driver. Not even some little 8-pinner serial eeprom? -Ryan Brooks From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 20:08:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:08:14 -0800 Subject: Do old FPGA's decay? In-Reply-To: <438FA94B.5060906@hack.net> References: <200512011736520188.01D7AA97@10.0.0.252> <438FA94B.5060906@hack.net> Message-ID: <200512011808140628.01F46382@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 7:54 PM Ryan K. Brooks wrote: >Not even some little 8-pinner serial eeprom? No--that would be too easy. The only memory on the board is a AMD 7201 FIFO. Everything else is LSTTL. Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 20:11:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:11:21 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>For the record: It is impossible to write 800K mac floppies (and 880K >>Amiga disks) if you have a traditional NEC-based floppy controller. > > You know, I told someone that 10 years ago and was called a liar. I I said "write". Are you saying you know of an x86 program that writes data to 800K Mac disks using only the NEC controller? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 1 20:18:36 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 20:18:36 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201184059.047243b8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201184059.047243b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <438FAEFC.9030308@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Insert CD in machine with 'Net connectivity, hit "go", wait a bunch > whilst it downloads lots of stuff & patches it with insecure shiznit, Be fair now -- what makes it insecure and your stuff secure? > Yea, I'm kinda cynical about the whole emerge thingy, but seeing how Hopefully that doesn't extend to FreeBSD's /ports system. I loved that a decade ago and I still do. > Gentoo bastardizes qmail and then the poor buggers ask why they're > having problems because they know nothing about the whole deal... Well, who in their right mind would run qmail??? Last I checked, messages in the queue must have filenames that match their inode numbers -- excuse me? How am I supposed to backup/restore the queue? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 1 20:31:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 18:31:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> > >>For the record: It is impossible to write 800K mac floppies (and 880K > >>Amiga disks) if you have a traditional NEC-based floppy controller. Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You know, I told someone that 10 years ago and was called a liar. I On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > I said "write". Are you saying you know of an x86 program that writes data to > 800K Mac disks using only the NEC controller? No, He's expressing some amusement or annoyance about people who refuse to believe that it is impossible. At Comdex once, I had a "heckler" who INSISTED that Apple ][ disks could be read and written by the PC "because they are both 300 RPM". He kept DEMANDING to know why we "refused" to do it. I finally got rid of him by telling him that the reason why we didn't do it was because of threats from Apple's lawyers. (NOT TRUE) There HAVE been two companies who DID make such threats! (At NCC 1983) They couldn't imagine ANY possible use for copying files from one disk format to another other than "to steal our software." (I added both of those formats to XenoCopy that night in my hotel room, but they never kept their promise to sue me.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 20:34:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:34:43 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini (was: Re: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: References: <200511301535560554.19CBAB07@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051201213443.7e16a3e3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:41:07 +0000 Adrian Graham wrote: > On 30/11/05 23:35, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Somewhat OT: > > > > At orchestra rehearsal last night, one of the bassists proudly told me that > > he'd bought a new computer--a Mac Mini for about $800, which included a 14" > > LCD monitor and a gig of DRAM. I must admit that I'm not sure if he got a > > good deal or not. You're definitely limited on expansion options and I'd > > sure hate to repair the thing. > > > > DVD/CD-RW drive, but no floppy. > > > > OTOH, it is kind of cool from an industrial design standpoint, although a > > small profile PC would be almost as small. > > I'm typing on my Mini right now and it's an excellent little machine, > practically silent and so small it sits perfectly on the rotating base of an > 18" flat screen monitor. Like all USB macs it's perfectly happy with my > Logitech 7-button mouse and for connectivity it comes out of the box with > bluetooth and 802.11G wireless. > > My only issue with it is that it only has 2 USB ports and no mic input so by > the time you've got your kbd/mouse plugged in your remaining port is taken > up by the USB sound module though I guess I could plug that into the > keyboard too.....the hard drive is also slow.... > Can't you just plug a USB hub into one of the ports, and make it into a big maze of cables if that suits your desires? From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 20:41:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:41:54 -0500 Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051201214154.4c02b4cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:53:21 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the advice, and no, I didn't find any offense whatsoever in > > your post. I think you for the advice and I checked that book out from the > > You;'d be suprised. Some people take offence at being told what they > consider to be obvious. > > > library here at work (I work at a community college) > > It''s not a cheap book, but I'd strongly advise buying your own copy. It > is not a book you are going to grow out of quickly (if at all, I consider > that I have a reasonable understnading of electronics, but I still often > lookt in TAoE). It's one of those books that I think every hacker should > own (along with the 'Minix book' we discussed last week, K&R, etc). > I have the first edition (black slipcover) and bought it back when I was making a mere $4 an hour in the early 80's. And I have never regretted that purchase. It is the 'modern' edition of 'The Radiotron Designer's Handbook' which is a similar book from the vacuum tube era. Lots of substancial content. The Art of Electronics can be your ONLY electronics book and stand well in that role. It was written, incidentally, to BE the only needed electronics book, for technically minded people, scientists, etc. For the kind of scientist who rolls up his/her sleeves and builds his/her own test equipment for the lab. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 20:47:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:47:22 -0500 Subject: A heads-up: updated holiday vintage computer buyers guide In-Reply-To: <26c11a640511302347q1445cbe2m@mail.gmail.com> References: <001801c5f5f6$33653d80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <438E298C.2010205@atarimuseum.com> <26c11a640511302347q1445cbe2m@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051201214722.31418b67.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 07:47:57 +0000 Dan Williams wrote: > >Although the > > SIO2PC allows you to also take control of a PC's serial modem and > > parallel ports as well as its floppy, hard disk and networked drives. > > > I thought all windows machines connected to the internet pretty much > came with this as standard ;) > Ah, you'd be surprised how many machines these days are instead provided with singing, dancing, animated cursors and dialogue boxes. And isn't it a documented goal at Microsoft to completely do away with 'legacy' features like serial and parallel ports? I remember reading the 'PC 98' or somesuch spec from Microsoft and thinking to myself that to 'upgrade' a motherboard to Microsoft's liking, you get out a dykes and cut off all kinds of headers on the motherboard. USB is supposed to save the world, etc. etc. Everything else must disappear. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 1 21:25:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:25:54 -0500 Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 Message-ID: <0IQU00IG8PGZCVD0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:41:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:53:21 +0000 (GMT) >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > >> > Thanks for all the advice, and no, I didn't find any offense whatsoever in >> > your post. I think you for the advice and I checked that book out from the >> >> You;'d be suprised. Some people take offence at being told what they >> consider to be obvious. >> >> > library here at work (I work at a community college) >> >> It''s not a cheap book, but I'd strongly advise buying your own copy. It >> is not a book you are going to grow out of quickly (if at all, I consider >> that I have a reasonable understnading of electronics, but I still often >> lookt in TAoE). It's one of those books that I think every hacker should >> own (along with the 'Minix book' we discussed last week, K&R, etc). >> > >I have the first edition (black slipcover) and bought it back when I was making a mere $4 an hour in the early 80's. And I have never regretted that purchase. It is the 'modern' edition of 'The Radiotron Designer's Handbook' which is a similar book from the vacuum tube era. Lots of substancial content. The Art of Electronics can be your ONLY electronics book and stand well in that role. > >It was written, incidentally, to BE the only needed electronics book, for technically minded people, scientists, etc. For the kind of scientist who rolls up his/her sleeves and builds his/her own test equipment for the lab. When It comes to books it's about thin only thing I spend too much on. My library includes books like the Radio Amatuers Handbook(arrl press) from for about every five years or when they made format changes about 1955 to current, OSDI Minix second edition hard cover, K&R the little white book and a Bell Tel "A" size copy from their think tank with margin notes, Of course the Grey, orange and Blue walls and a couple of feet of the DEC handbooks. Then I get into things like parts databooks going back to when dirt was being spec'd. Information and the books that contain them are the single most precious part of what I have because it spans all aspects of electronics. Now the 'The Radiotron Designer's Handbook' fits in that pile as just one more opinion along with my old college texts. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:14:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:14:06 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051201231406.51827741.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 15:40:09 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Cini, Richard wrote: > > All: > > > > > > > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > Always been a Slackware fan myself (used it since the SLS days, apart from a > brief diversion to RedHat). It's less bloated than the likes of Fedora, but > still comes with the option of a lot of desktop software. > I moved from Slackware to NetBSD a number of years ago, and just recently gave OpenBSD a try. From my perspective, there's an advantage in any of the BSDs over a Linux in that you're dealing with a more integrated OS. The three 'main' BSDs provide an entire userland from the same source tree, not 'packages' from all over. So you get X Window and all your standard unixy things, including the core development tools, in a small single-install produced by one organization. Then 'packages' like word processors, browsers, emulators and such are installed as 'packages' through a package management system. Most 'linux' distros try to do this, but pull in source and binaries from all over to make up the 'distribution' without the degree of oversight that a modern BSD operating system entails. What has me 'sold' on OpenBSD at this point is that there is a rich directory of prebuilt binary packages from one place and mirrors that I was able to mirror onto a DVD-ROM and now have in it's entirety. Which can be done with any other 'free UNIX' if you download enough but there often aren't centrally located repositories. (BTW- anybody who wants a set of said stuff, holler in private email because I'm in favor of sharing bandwidth. I will distribute CDs or DVDs- the 'downloadable' stuff only, though, for the cost of media and shipping) And being moderately cross-platform (not as widely ported as NetBSD, of course) you can run it on a LOT of different systems. I bought the commercial OpenBSD CDROM set a month ago before embarking on my new OpenBSD system install, and it clearly stated right on the outside of the CD that the set contained the binaries to run on a MicroVAX 3100. What ELSE can you buy at a Frys Electronics that will run on the latest Pentiums, the 64 b! it AMD processors, your Macintosh SE/30 and your MicroVAX 3100? (they didn't have the NetBSD set at the Frys I visited) There is also a slogan out there that sums it all up nicely and/or is obvious flamebait: "Linux is for people who hate Microsoft. BSD is for people who love Unix." From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 1 22:09:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:09:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438FAEFC.9030308@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201184059.047243b8@mail.30below.com> <438FAEFC.9030308@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512020421.XAA05610@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] downloads lots of stuff & patches it with insecure shiznit, > Be fair now -- what makes it insecure and your stuff secure? Understanding. (While I didn't write any of the above, I share enough of the views expressed to feel moderately confident I share the mindset behind it.) Rule of thumb: if you don't understand what your machine is running, it isn't secure. The converse is, unfortunately, not as true as I'd wish, but at least you know where your security holes are. In many circumstances, knowing what your exposure is is almost as good as closing it. In the case of my home machines, for example, I've made a conscious decision to ignore threats posed by people with physical access to my machines' consoles. I am hopelessly insecure against such threats - but I know it, I find the benefits outweigh the costs, and I keep it in mind when, for example, leaving other people in my place in my absence. > Well, who in their right mind would run qmail??? Amen. Not open source, connection-bombs recipient mailhosts by default, nonstandard bounces that don't even have message-IDs(!)...and now this > Last I checked, messages in the queue must have filenames that match > their inode numbers which I hadn't heard of before. Yet quite a number of otherwise apparently sane people do, and appear totally impervious to clue provision. I really don't get it. (To be fair, there are also a number that *are* at least somewhat clue-pervious, though there's one - a really nice guy in most respects, both online and in person - with whom I've had several go-rounds over the connection-bombing misbehaviour, who just can't seem to grasp the concept of politeness as applied to other people's resources.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:21:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:21:10 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051201232110.6c022fcb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:10:14 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > > > There's a lot of window managers out there that don't have the bloat > > problems of Gnome and KDE. I like WindowMaker, but you can get > > AfterStep, fluxbox, icewm, etc.; there's tons available out of the box > > on most distros. The only way to win the "Desktop Envoronment" game is > > not to play :-) > > > So what does real unix use for a GUI? > The X Window System. With the Tab Window Manager (twm) which is tiny and a stock part of the 'base' X Window System. Nowadays Motif has been released as open source so you can build it on anything and use mwm, which is another 'classic Unix' desktop (sorta.) The rest is all fluff. (but I confess that I use fvwm). > > Alexey > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:25:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:25:45 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051201232545.62ec7782.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:46:04 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I've had Linux in one form or the other since the very early release days > (0.something). I've never found it for use as a desktop system (especially > GUI) particularly compelling. I think many folks secretly hold the same > opinion, else why the rise of products like Wine? And there are some areas > where it really is deficient--multimedia for example. Specialized apps are > another area--I've never found a really good WYSIWYG musical notation > editor for Linux. > > For doing real work, I like command line interfaces, so I keep a Linux > system around that I can telnet into from my Windows desktop. I might be > tempted to use a Mac as a desktop machine, but my customers in general > don't, so it's best to live where they do, so to speak. > > My mail and net server is Linux and I change distros there when I change > hardware--every few years. There's no reason to do otherwise--the new > distros aren't as a rule faster and the server basically never crashes > since it's always doing the same thing day after day. > > As far as distros go, I started with Slackware, but have been using RH for > some time, simply because I've been using RH for some time.. It really > doesn't matter all that much--RH does tend to be very spotty in its > releases--you can often find some very old release of a package in their > distros--and they have the RH way of doing things. Debian isn't bad but > can get to be very confusing and verbose during installation--and help in > making choices is often difficult to find. I've also tried SuSE and it's > pretty good. > > But mostly, I want to install the blasted thing and be done with it. > > Others have observed the bloat in Linux and I agree. I started running it > on an 8MB 386 and it was pretty snappy. I don't think that feat could be > reproduced with any of the current distros. > Most of the current distros won't even install on a '386 processor, because the producers have compiled the binaries with the performance-boosting features of newer chips. Some binaries won't run on less than a Pentium. And some people even squawk about that as being good. (on-topic grumble and glance over at full-AT 80386-16 box currently not in use). From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:30:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:30:47 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051201233047.4b958281.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:49:28 -0500 Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jochen Kunz may have mentioned these words: > > >There is no best Linux distribution. > > Yes there is. > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > > Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, but then you can > build *just exactly what you want* with the compiler options that you want, > etc. Don't want X, don't build it. I can easily fit a non-X distro (with > all the other bells & whistles) in less than 512M, and wouldn't booting > from a cheap CF card be fun? ;-) > I can just install NetBSD or OpenBSD without choosing to install the big tarballs of X11 binaries. It will install in about five minutes from prebuilt binaries and be VERY integrated and clean. I can easily fit a non-X install on an old 80M IDE drive. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 1 22:33:26 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:33:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051201232110.6c022fcb.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> <438F82D6.7080909@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051201232110.6c022fcb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512020438.XAA05695@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So what does real unix use for a GUI? > The X Window System. With the Tab Window Manager (twm) which is tiny > and a stock part of the 'base' X Window System. [...] > The rest is all fluff. (but I confess that I use fvwm). Actually, twm has quite a bit of fluff itself. Title bars, menus, icons, etc. And that's just from the user-interface poin of view; since it's an Xt-using program, it's got a huge amount of fluff at the code level. (My take on it is "title bars belong in Hollywood; menus belong in restaurants; icons belong in shrines". My window manager has none of them - and uses Xlib directly.) Not that I have anything against fluff per se. Nor do I think that someone who likes it shouldn't use such a WM. But I don't want fluff in my day-to-day GUI. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:36:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:36:22 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F8001.9040205@oldskool.org> References: <438F8001.9040205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051201233622.59555cb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:58:09 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Cini, Richard wrote: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > > > Any thoughts from the group? > > Well, my first thought is "Why did you just ask for a *nux advocacy flamewar?" > For the sake of the list, perhaps we should all pledge to let this thread die It now contains about all the info he needs. I pledge so personally. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 22:44:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:44:57 -0500 Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC Message-ID: <20051201234457.1ad05e5e.chenmel@earthlink.net> I competed in the horserace called eBay last week and acquired what to me is a wonderful piece of hardware- A commercially produced 8088 single board computer that uses ALL TTL logic except for the 8088 processor itself. It has a compliment of 8 bit input and output ports made with 20-pin TTL chips, and the docs include full schematics. I can now adapt the design to other 8088 SBC computer ideas I have. It has a BASIC interpreter in ROM and the console is over a serial port. It apparently can burn EPROMs on-board and has about five open sockets for adding code. It's all on about a 5"x7" card and hails from the year 1992. It has, uh, all the power of a current-generation PIC from Microchip, but in a much neater package. It's a Vesta Technology, Inc. SBC88A. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 1 22:44:37 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 23:44:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200512020449.XAA05758@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So what does real unix use for a GUI? > X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P What? No window manager? Actually, while we differ on the details (I prefer my own clock and terminal emulator, for example), I tend to agree with you: GUIs are mostly for providing multiple shell windows. (About 90% of my screen area is covered with terminal emulator windows, though two of them don't have interactive shells running in them - they're effectively watching log entries scrolling past, one for the machine's console and one for my house phone line's caller ID.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 1 23:07:15 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 00:07:15 -0500 Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC References: <20051201234457.1ad05e5e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008e01c5f6fe$42ff7090$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 11:44 PM Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC > I competed in the horserace called eBay last week and acquired what to me is a wonderful piece of hardware- A commercially produced 8088 single board computer that uses ALL TTL logic except for the 8088 processor itself. It has a compliment of 8 bit input and output ports made with 20-pin TTL chips, and the docs include full schematics. I can now adapt the design to other 8088 SBC computer ideas I have. It has a BASIC interpreter in ROM and the console is over a serial port. It apparently can burn EPROMs on-board and has about five open sockets for adding code. It's all on about a 5"x7" card and hails from the year 1992. It has, uh, all the power of a current-generation PIC from Microchip, but in a much neater package. > > It's a Vesta Technology, Inc. SBC88A. That company is still in business www.vestatech.com, I developed some process controllers using their SBC2000-332 Motorola boards in the late 1990's (just before the crash in semiconductor equipment orders). They have since moved into a bigger building so they must be doing well. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 23:41:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:41:13 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512012141130079.02B75D32@10.0.0.252> >I said "write". Are you saying you know of an x86 program that writes >data to >800K Mac disks using only the NEC controller? Nope, just agreeing with Fred. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 1 23:57:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 21:57:15 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> On 12/1/2005 at 6:31 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >There HAVE been two companies who DID make such threats! (At NCC 1983) >They couldn't imagine ANY possible use for copying files from one disk >format to another other than "to steal our software." >(I added both of those formats to XenoCopy that night in my hotel room, >but they never kept their promise to sue me.) I'm desperately trying to remember some details here..wasn't there a bit of a flap with copy-protected Lotus 123 and one of IBM"s newer machines? Maybe it was the PS/2 introduction, but that seems too late to me--it might have been the PC-AT. At any rate, IBM found themselves in the position of having to unofficially recommend one of the copy protection defeating products to customers in order to get 123 to run on their new systems. Anyone remember the exact details? It's too fuzzy in my memory... Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 2 00:23:37 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:23:37 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0500 12/1/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > So what does real unix use for a GUI? > > X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P > > -spc (That's pretty much all I've ever used X for ... well, except > for Mosaic/Netscape/Mozilla as well these past few years ... ) If I could get 'joe' to work with the new "context coloring", I might be down to that myself. Instead, I need XEmac's thrown into the mix. Seriously, on Unix, or OpenVMS, what do you need a GUI for, other than to provide more terminal windows :^) On OpenVMS, the only GUI app I ever use is the DECwindows version of "DEC Mail", and then only every few months. In spite of this, I do a fair amount of "Word Processing" on VMS. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 2 00:26:51 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:26:51 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512020100.RAA11608@floodgap.com> References: <200512020100.RAA11608@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 5:00 PM -0800 12/1/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > So what does real unix use for a GUI? > >Aqua. Aqua is the single largest problem with Mac OS X, they ported the classic Mac interface over to OPENSTEP, back in the Rhapsody days, I for one wish they'd stuck with it. Hmmm, on second thought, maybe the insane RAM requirements are the worst thing about Mac OS X. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 2 00:40:13 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:40:13 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051201231406.51827741.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <20051201231406.51827741.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 11:14 PM -0500 12/1/05, Scott Stevens wrote: >I moved from Slackware to NetBSD a number of years ago, and just >recently gave OpenBSD a try. From my perspective, there's an >advantage in any of the BSDs OpenBSD rocks! There is one downside to it though, and that's Theo, he doesn't always stop to consider the damage some of his decisions do in the short term. Where I *really* like OpenBSD is on Sparc hardware, it will really breath new life into old Sparc's. Unfortunately the last time I checked, it still doesn't support multiple CPU's on Sparc Hardware. I'd love to install it on one of my SparcStation 20/712's! Besides the attention paid to making it secure, the other thing I really like about it is that it tends to have very small RAM requirements. >There is also a slogan out there that sums it all up nicely and/or >is obvious flamebait: "Linux is for people who hate Microsoft. BSD >is for people who love Unix." I'll agree with that, sadly a lot of Linux users are blinded by their hatred of Microsoft. Still, my favorite Unix variants are probably Solaris, and IRIX. Still to run some things, you simply need Linux. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 2 00:41:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:41:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm desperately trying to remember some details here..wasn't there a bit of > a flap with copy-protected Lotus 123 and one of IBM"s newer machines? > Maybe it was the PS/2 introduction, but that seems too late to me--it might > have been the PC-AT. At any rate, IBM found themselves in the position of > having to unofficially recommend one of the copy protection defeating > products to customers in order to get 123 to run on their new systems. > Anyone remember the exact details? It's too fuzzy in my memory... possibly: IBM provided a cable to transfer files/programs from 5.25" based PCs over to 3.5" PS/2s. Many copy-protected programs would have to be unprotected to be able to get the resulting 3.5" copy to work. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Dec 2 01:36:04 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:36:04 +0100 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2556@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I tried to run ADVENT on my 6809-based PDP8/e simulation, but it did not work. I asked Dough and he told me that ADVENT stores its files using the *physical address* on the disk. So, if you copy the files and they end up on a different location on your target disk, ADVENT is not able to read them. This is from memory, and I could be wrong ... - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > charlesmorris at direcway.com > Sent: donderdag 1 december 2005 22:11 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? > > I have the ADVENT files for PDP-8 (from the diagpack2.RK05 > image) but it won't run under SIMH (simulator halts on error). > Does anyone have the load/run instructions? > thanks > Charles This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 2 02:04:31 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 08:04:31 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini (was: Re: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: <20051201213443.7e16a3e3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/05 02:34, "Scott Stevens" wrote: >> My only issue with it is that it only has 2 USB ports and no mic input so by >> the time you've got your kbd/mouse plugged in your remaining port is taken >> up by the USB sound module though I guess I could plug that into the >> keyboard too.....the hard drive is also slow.... >> > > Can't you just plug a USB hub into one of the ports, and make it into a big > maze of cables if that suits your desires? Yes, and belkin produce such a thing that's the same shape as the mini but I feel that that's not the point of the machine. Having said that I'm not about to annoy myself for no good reason so I'll probably buy one anyway :) Also an external HD as long as it doesn't require its own power brick.... A From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 2 02:27:02 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 03:27:02 -0500 Subject: Simple 8-bit D-A / load meter? Message-ID: <01C5F6F6.169CF520@MSE_D03> If you don't need high accuracy and/or have a good selection of resistors you can do it with one resistor per bit, each one twice the value of the next; that was the "standard" user port interface for generating sound and music on a PET, BTW. mike ---------------------------Original Message ------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 19:23:14 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks On 12/1/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... where I thought things were, but I appear to have lost an old file > > that described how to make a simple D-A that one could hang off of an > > 8-bit I/O port to generate a voltage from approx 0 VDC to +5VDC. Does > > Off the top of my head, look in the top left bit of a TB303 circuit > diagram where the 7-bit converter to generate the VCO control voltage > is. Googling for "tb303.gif" should bring it up. I did eventually find that at http://www.hylander.us/images/schematics/roland/tb303.gif Thanks for the hint. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 2 03:07:53 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 04:07:53 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it worth while actually making that list. If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone may be interested? TIA, mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 03:29:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:29:38 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43901402.5030300@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 2/12/05 02:34, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > >>> My only issue with it is that it only has 2 USB ports and no mic input so by >>> the time you've got your kbd/mouse plugged in your remaining port is taken >>> up by the USB sound module though I guess I could plug that into the >>> keyboard too.....the hard drive is also slow.... >>> >> Can't you just plug a USB hub into one of the ports, and make it into a big >> maze of cables if that suits your desires? > > Yes, and belkin produce such a thing that's the same shape as the mini but I > feel that that's not the point of the machine. Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came with some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice compact well-designed machine with some useful connectivity too. It seems that no matter what the USB-advocates say, bodging that sort of stuff on top of Universal Screwed-up Bus plain doesn't work... cheers J. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 03:37:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 03:37:08 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>I'm desperately trying to remember some details here..wasn't there a bit of >>a flap with copy-protected Lotus 123 and one of IBM"s newer machines? >>Maybe it was the PS/2 introduction, but that seems too late to me--it might >>have been the PC-AT. At any rate, IBM found themselves in the position of >>having to unofficially recommend one of the copy protection defeating >>products to customers in order to get 123 to run on their new systems. >>Anyone remember the exact details? It's too fuzzy in my memory... > > possibly: > IBM provided a cable to transfer files/programs from 5.25" based PCs over > to 3.5" PS/2s. Many copy-protected programs would have to be unprotected > to be able to get the resulting 3.5" copy to work. No, I think what Chuck was remembering was how the copy protection library used in the 1.0-era early versions of Lotus had code that would not function properly on the faster AT (probably due to extremely tight FDC timing routines). As a result, the copy protection check failed every single time :-) That's only one specific instance -- Lotus was plagued by compatibility problems from 1983 until 1987 (when they finally stopped using disk-based protection), completely caused by their copy-protection schemes. I can remember other flaps, such as offering the ability to "transfer" the protection to the hard disk, only to have it blow away the boot+FAT on certain disk/controller arrangements... or fixing the 8088 code to work on 286s, only to have it break AGAIN on Compaq's new 386 Deskpro. I remember that Lotus 1-2-3 was considered by some as a true test of IBM PC compatibility: I knew people who would bring some version of Lotus with them to Computerland or Radio Shack or wherever and if the machine they wanted to buy didn't boot Lotus 1-2-3 they went elsewhere. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 2 03:49:28 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:49:28 +0000 Subject: Simple 8-bit D-A / load meter? In-Reply-To: References: <438F3DA5.504@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <439018A8.6020605@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/1/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>... where I thought things were, but I appear to have lost an old file >>>that described how to make a simple D-A that one could hang off of an >>>8-bit I/O port to generate a voltage from approx 0 VDC to +5VDC. Does >> >>Off the top of my head, look in the top left bit of a TB303 circuit >>diagram where the 7-bit converter to generate the VCO control voltage >>is. Googling for "tb303.gif" should bring it up. > > > I did eventually find that at > > http://www.hylander.us/images/schematics/roland/tb303.gif > > Thanks for the hint. :-) I'm sure googling for "covox speech thing" or something would have turned up exactly what you were after but I had just been looking at that very thing earlier in the day... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 2 04:02:49 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 10:02:49 +0000 Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43901BC9.7080808@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>I find those sort of tips totally useless!. There could be many causes of >>>'no vertical deflection' (or whatever), the fact that _once_ it was >>>caused by a particular set of components doesn't mean it always is. >> >>I can't agree there. When I used to repair TVs and video recorders and >>the like, I (like others) tended to find that different makes had their >>own particular favourite stock faults. > > > If you run a reapir shop, I can see the use of them. Probably 90% of all > fauts are 'stock faults' and can be found in the database. It'll get > those units off the bench quickly. And I've heard of repair shops that > look for the stock faults and if it's something else, they return the > unit as being beyond repair (OUCH!). Been there, done that. Been the person they got returned to, as well... > However, they seem to be a lot less use when it's a one-off unit which > you need to repair no matter what (like a classic computer). You're going > to have to do real fault diagnosis sometimes anyway, it doesn't make it > much more difficult to do it properly every time. I'm sure that by now, if a stock fault was going to appear it would have done so by now. In my experience they tend to be design problems more than anything else - like, oh for example, VT100 under-rated capacitors... >>In that case, for example, if you got a Ferguson ICC9-chassis TV on the >>bench with no EW correction and excessive width, you'd go straight for a >>particular electrolytic somewhere around the scan drive circuit. >>Annoyingly enough I can't remember which one and my telly has just >>started doing that... > > Alternatively you could get out he schematic, _understnad it_ and work > out what components could cause this problem. If the schematic was available. In any case it's a pretty bog standard EW modulator circuit - big electrolytic from the vertical scan circuit, pair of clamping diodes and their resistor, and another resistor to the width circuit. It's just been so bloody long since I had one apart, and I don't fancy moving a 34" 4:3 telly... Gordon From bert at brothom.nl Fri Dec 2 04:37:50 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 11:37:50 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <00f601c5f69e$4c3fc340$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <439023FE.1040801@brothom.nl> Robert Armstrong wrote: > Anybody got a manual for the 9600? Bitsavers has the manual for the 9610, > but it appears that the 9600 is substantially different. I have the manual and a complete drive for parts. Bad news is that I live in the Netherlands and have no decent way to scan the manual. You can have what you want for the price of shipping. Bert From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Dec 2 05:05:42 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 12:05:42 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF255B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Bert, I live in The Netherlands, and I can scan and upload to bitsavers. I am willing to put my time into scanning (at 600 dpi, PDF), but I am not willing to put money into it (for example for shipping ...) - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bert Thomas > Sent: vrijdag 2 december 2005 11:38 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? > > Robert Armstrong wrote: > Anybody got a manual for the 9600? Bitsavers has the > manual for the 9610, but it appears that the 9600 is > substantially different. > > I have the manual and a complete drive for parts. Bad news is > that I live in the Netherlands and have no decent way to scan > the manual. You can have what you want for the price of shipping. > > Bert This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Dec 2 05:37:02 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 06:37:02 -0500 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2556@OVL-EXBE01.oceven lo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2556@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051202063503.02349fc0@rickmurphy.net> At 02:36 AM 12/2/2005, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >I tried to run ADVENT on my 6809-based PDP8/e simulation, but >it did not work. I asked Dough and he told me that ADVENT >stores its files using the *physical address* on the disk. >So, if you copy the files and they end up on a different >location on your target disk, ADVENT is not able to read them. > >This is from memory, and I could be wrong ... Nope, you're right. Basically, it's a FORTRAN program that has some files open then suspends itself. You save the suspended program then resume it; since it doesn't close and reopen the files, it reads from where it thinks the file is located. However, what happens in that case is that the program displays garbage rather than the expected text - that shouldn't crash the emulator. -Rick From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 2 06:00:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 07:00:05 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IQV0034ED9TBS94@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: M H Stein > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 04:07:53 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN >software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > >Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, >external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > >I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like >to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it >worth while actually making that list. > >If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone >may be interested? > >TIA, > >mike From bert at brothom.nl Fri Dec 2 06:10:59 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:10:59 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF255B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF255B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <439039D3.1070104@brothom.nl> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Bert, > I live in The Netherlands, and I can scan and upload to bitsavers. > I am willing to put my time into scanning (at 600 dpi, PDF), but I > am not willing to put money into it (for example for shipping ...) > No problem Henk, give me your address and I'll send it to you. If you need to, you may take it apart. I won't mind. Regards, bert From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Dec 2 06:16:39 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:16:39 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF255D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> replied off-list. The documentation will appear before the end of this month ... - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bert Thomas > Sent: vrijdag 2 december 2005 13:11 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kennedy 9600 9-track w/DQ132 on mVAX-II?? > > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Bert, > > I live in The Netherlands, and I can scan and upload to bitsavers. > > I am willing to put my time into scanning (at 600 dpi, > PDF), but I am > > not willing to put money into it (for example for shipping ...) > > > > No problem Henk, give me your address and I'll send it to you. > If you need to, you may take it apart. I won't mind. > > Regards, > bert This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Dec 2 06:42:40 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:42:40 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F823C.3050304@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201133611.0530cb08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43904F50.30001.333BE000@localhost> Am 1 Dec 2005 17:07 meinte Jim Leonard: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> There is no best Linux distribution. > > Yes there is. > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > > Build your own. Takes from a few days to a month or more, but then you > How is this different from gentoo? Well, I guess Roger got a quite pointed answer here, but for a simple start, LFS means you got to do all the steps to build a linux system on your own, while Gento prety much automated the whole process. Gentoo is an atempt to give you the friendlyness of a complete, ready to use system with the flexibility of adapting everything to your needs. Of course this is always a comprimuse. If you just go ahead and install it according to the real good made instructions (*1), then you'll not to far from what most big distris give you - still the system is not as bloated. For the installation part, ALFS (Automated LFS) is a project to create a basic install wthat can again be automated. When it comes to applications Gentoo is as easy as other full (*2) distries, just emerge, whatever application you need - chances are as good as with SuSE or Red Hat, that this app is available. LFS in contrast requires that you start on you own an look where to find the application, than gnaw your way thru the app docs to learn how it has to be compiled and why, just to find some missing flag or an obsciure library version needed to finish. Of course, after you did this you'll be way more familiar with that application then by just installing a binary. Debian belivers often point out, that their apt-get is even more powerfull than emerge, but all you get is a rather generic binary. in no way customized. Especialy the distribution via source code offers another level of security, since a given app is always build on your local (*3) machine from the sources. This you can always verify (or at least die tryin') every detail. I once had an argument wit an LFS-advocate who insisted that only LFS is secue, because you have to go thru the sources to make it work. I think that's rather theoretical if at all. If your're installing apps from scratch, you're more concerned to get it working than to double check its internals. Gentoo gives you the ability to dig in as deep as you want, but doesn't force this onto you. Gruss H. *1 - I belive there's by now even a throw a CD in and let it go version, but I never seen that, you still have to work your way along the command line, but it's realy easy and well explained. *2 - Full refers here to a distribution that gives you a fill fledged system like windows (aka SuSE, Red Hat and even Debian), not just a minimal linux or a one configuration fits all system. *3 - or on some slaves if you use distcc -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From news at computercollector.com Fri Dec 2 06:42:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:42:54 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <001b01c5f73d$eb3238d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> If not here, maybe someone knows of another list How about Craigslist? :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:08 AM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it worth while actually making that list. If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone may be interested? TIA, mike From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Dec 2 06:47:27 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:47:27 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini Message-ID: Doesn't that essentially get you a VIA EPIA motherboard (except for the SCSI)? Only problem there is that it doesn't run OSX. On my PC at home, although I have "legacy" ports on my Shuttle XPC, I don't use them. I have a USB scanner and color printer. The laser printer is attached to the network though a Netgear print server. The DV_cam connects through FireWire and I use a card reader for the Memory Sticks from my Sony camera. I have a 56k modem, but it's internal. I don't really have any daily-use peripherals that use legacy ports. If I need, I have several other machines that I could use. I personally have not had a problem with USB but maybe I'm not looking hard enough :-) Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:30 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mac Mini Adrian Graham wrote: > On 2/12/05 02:34, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > >>> My only issue with it is that it only has 2 USB ports and no mic input so by >>> the time you've got your kbd/mouse plugged in your remaining port is taken >>> up by the USB sound module though I guess I could plug that into the >>> keyboard too.....the hard drive is also slow.... >>> >> Can't you just plug a USB hub into one of the ports, and make it into a big >> maze of cables if that suits your desires? > > Yes, and belkin produce such a thing that's the same shape as the mini but I > feel that that's not the point of the machine. Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came with some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice compact well-designed machine with some useful connectivity too. It seems that no matter what the USB-advocates say, bodging that sort of stuff on top of Universal Screwed-up Bus plain doesn't work... cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 07:52:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:52:25 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> Cini, Richard wrote: >> Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came >> with some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. > > Doesn't that essentially get you a VIA EPIA motherboard (except for the > SCSI)? Only problem there is that it doesn't run OSX. I'd like to try OSX, and suspect I'd quite like it - after all it's Unix, with a GUI on top by people who probably know more about the game than anyone else, and supposedly the integration between the two is very good. > On my PC at home, although I have "legacy" ports on my Shuttle XPC, I don't > use them. I have a USB scanner and color printer. The laser printer is > attached to the network though a Netgear print server. The DV_cam connects > through FireWire and I use a card reader for the Memory Sticks from my Sony > camera. I have a 56k modem, but it's internal. I don't really have any > daily-use peripherals that use legacy ports. If I need, I have several other > machines that I could use. My desktop machine uses SCSI for connection to the DAT drive, CD burner, 'backup' hard disk (when it's plugged in) and for archive of vintage disks, all up on top of the desk - plus DVDROM, CDROM and hard disks internally are all SCSI. Oh, and the SCSI scanner on the rare occasions that I use it. Parallel's used for the printer and for occasional futzing around with homebrew projects. Serial's used for my EPROM/PAL programmer, console for various machines when needed, and file transfer to/from vintage machines. If I ever need to hook up a modem, that'd be serial too (I don't like cards sitting in machines doing nothing 99% of the time!) If I were to replace that with a big tower Mac of some kind, all I'd gain was the ability to run OSX, but wouldn't save any space. If I were to use a Mac mini, I couldn't do half the stuff that I do with the current desktop PC :) (I don't dispute that there's a huge market for them from people who just want a machine for everyday office-type apps. Just wish there was a version with more connectivity for us hacker types! :) > I personally have not had a problem with USB but maybe I'm not looking hard > enough :-) It never seems to do things quite as well as native ports - e.g. I could add various USB-to-whatever adapters, but they'd likely be flaky and not particularly efficient. Seems fine for digital cameras and webcams and portable storage devices. (I do use USB on my main PC for the digital camera connection) Oddly enough, scanners don't seem to have progressed at all though despite a switch from paralle/SCSI to USB. The mechanism's still the same speed as ever; I can only assume because they're still limited by data transfer rate to the host. Seems like some marketing type once said "hey, lets have a common bus for every external device, even though they all do different things and run at different speeds", and somehow it became reality. Nobody learned from the SCSI years (where it typically becomes a disaster if connecting anything other than a storage device :) cheers Jules From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Dec 2 07:55:53 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 07:55:53 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <00d001c5f748$1cd89870$0500a8c0@Gils6240> Where are you located? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:08 AM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but > I'd like to know if there's any interest in this sort of > stuff to make it worth while actually making that list. > > If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where > someone may be interested? > > TIA, > > mike > From spedraja at ono.com Fri Dec 2 10:04:44 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (sp) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:04:44 +0100 Subject: Searching for some Arpanet Documents References: <00d001c5f748$1cd89870$0500a8c0@Gils6240> Message-ID: <00ae01c5f75a$1cda6800$1602a8c0@ACER> Hello. I should agree if someone could provide me one copy of these documents related with the Arpanet: * BBN Report n.2184, "TIP Hardware Manual" * BBN Report n.2161, "A Study of the ARPA Network Design and performance" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.89, "The Interface Message Processor Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.90, "The Network Control Center Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.91, "The Terminal Interface Message Processor Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.93, "The Remote Job Entry Mini-host" * BBN Reports n.2999, 2930, 3000, 3001, 2931, 3002, 3004, 3056 and 3126, all of them related with the Pluribus IMP. * NIC 6740, "The Network Resource Notebook" * NIC 7104, "ARPA Current Network Protocols" * NIC internal/informal notes named "TIP Users Group Notes" Thanks and Greetings Sergio From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 2 10:08:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:08:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512021610.LAA18289@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Nobody learned from the SCSI years (where it typically becomes a > disaster if connecting anything other than a storage device :) Well, the one non-storage SCSI device I have - a scanner - plays fine with the rest of the SCSI bus on the machine I use it on. The only way in whichi it has a downside is that it has to be at the end of the bus because it has only one connector. (This could probably be fixed by opening the case and dremeling a new hole...unless the terminator is non-disableable.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 11:25:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:25:20 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 3:37 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >No, I think what Chuck was remembering was how the copy protection library >used >in the 1.0-era early versions of Lotus had code that would not function >properly on the faster AT (probably due to extremely tight FDC timing >routines). As a result, the copy protection check failed every single >time :-) That feels about right. I recall that there was a bit of embarrassment on the part of the IBM that they had to recommend this route. And let's not forget that Lotus wasn't the only one to use very hardware-dependent copy protection schemes--Harvard Graphics was another widely-used package--and games were infamous for it. Oddly, many copy protection schemes could be defeated by simply patching the code to dummy up the subroutine that reported that the copy protection was intact. Such schemes actually worked since the WWW hadn't really gotten going and distribution of code and knowledge was a little slower, although BBS dissemination was taking its toll. This feels to be contemporary with the IBM PC/AT "You're not going to overclock your CPU" BIOS patch. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 11:36:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:36:38 -0800 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> For those of us who like to play with homebrew hardware, one of the handiest general-purpose interfaces out there is the PC parallel port I I suspect its also why a lot of engineers keep a copy of MS-DOS somewhere in their files). Articles for how to create some simple device attaching to the PC parallel port still appear in EDN's "Ideas for Design" section. What comparable facility is there on the new Macs? I do remember the MS-floated idea of PC-98--the white paper is buried somewhere in my collection of MSDN CDROMs. No keyboard or mouse port, no serial port, no parallel port, no floppy controller. It's all gonna be USB by-and-by with Frewire for faster devices. So maybe the Mini is a picture of things to come. A small sealed box and a desktop littlered with other boxes. Don't know about wires--maybe it'll all be Bluetooth. I hope not--it'd take some of the fun out of fooling around with the hardware. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 13:00:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:00:56 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: >I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN >software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > >Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, >external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > >I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like >to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it >worth while actually making that list. > >If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone >may be interested? > >TIA, > >mike > > > You know it takes a good bit of digging to find basic 8088 software, since windows has come out since "link,lib,masm" are no longer around. So get your older aps now while you can. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 2 13:12:20 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:12:20 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <01C5F74A.8E969140@MSE_D03> Toronto, ON in chilly Canada. m ----------------Original Message--------------------- From: "Gil Carrick" Subject: RE: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Where are you located? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:08 AM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. <.... blah, blah...> > TIA, > > mike > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 2 13:40:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 11:40:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 Message-ID: <200512021940.LAA10296@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Hi >> I looked at the schematic and the parts you'd indicated. >> It looks like one of them was one off and was R55 and not >> D11. From the looks, it might be that you have other failures >> in the supply. You've indicated R11, R21 and R55. These >> are all part of the circuit that drives the primary switcher >> transistor through T3. > >Having looked at the printset, the first thing that struck me is that >these are all high power resistors (2 or 3 watt rating). They would >naturally run hot, therefore, and may look discoloured without there >being anything wrong with them. > >Before we dive into this PSU, I would be interested to know if the thing >produces any output voltage, and if those 3 resistors test bad on an >ohmmeter. > >-tony Hi I agree. But as noted, this should be done without connecting the rest of the terminal. My only question is what toasted R21. From the schematic, it should on be supplying current to only R55. If we assume that R55 is running at 100%, ( which it shouldn't ) R55 will have 43 ma flowing in it. This current is only a wattage of 150 milliwatts in R21. This is well below it's rated value of 3.75 watts. I find it unlikely that anything less than a short connecting the mains to the winding of T3 pins 6 & 5 could bring R21 to a current level that would burn it as well as R55. The Diode D11 being short might only wipe out R55. C6 shorted might take both out and increase the power on R11 enough to do in R11 as well. He might check to make sure that C6 isn't shorted. What do you think? How else can I get R21 hot enough? Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 14:31:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:31:41 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4390AF2D.6070705@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: >I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN >software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > >Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, >external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > >I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like >to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it >worth while actually making that list. > > > Do you have any PCB layout and schematic capture programs? >If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone >may be interested? > >TIA, > >mike > > > From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 2 15:05:40 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 16:05:40 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <04ce01c5f784$32bcb9a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I do remember the MS-floated idea of PC-98--the white paper is buried > somewhere in my collection of MSDN CDROMs. No keyboard or > mouse port, no serial port, no parallel port, no floppy controller. > It's all gonna be USB USB is something of a miracle I'd have to say. Many good success stories here. Most recent one, getting a Keyboard/Mouse adaptor for $22 at Staples and having it "just work" on a G4 tower... This after carefully reading the packing and finding *not one* word saying that it would work on Macs. Have problems with USB Hubs over W98se though.. I tend to chalk these up to Win shortcomings. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 15:14:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:14:57 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 12:00 PM woodelf wrote: >You know it takes a good bit of digging to find basic 8088 software, >since windows has come out >since "link,lib,masm" are no longer around. So get your older aps now >while you can. Is that really true? AFAIK, MS still packs MASM 6.1x with their Windows DDK. And there are some PD programs, it seems to do similar stuff. Early 8088 stuff wasn't worth writing home about. MASM 1.0 was a slow buggy disaster, and Lattice C (sold by MS before they came out with their own) wasn't much better. As far as I'm concerned, MASM 6.13 is about the best version ever produced, even if it does require DPMI to run. For that matter, I prefer using flat 32-bit mode under an extender. No worrying about segment boundaries, 64K array sizes, etc. Makes life much easier--and runs faster on most platforms than 16-bit mode does. Of course, if you're using anything less than a 386, you're pretty much stuck with 16-bit mode and segment headaches. Cheers, Chuck From nerdware at ctgonline.org Fri Dec 2 15:24:36 2005 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:24:36 -0600 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <04ce01c5f784$32bcb9a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> <04ce01c5f784$32bcb9a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4390BB94.7040303@ctgonline.org> John Allain wrote: > > USB is something of a miracle I'd have to say. Many good success > stories here. Most recent one, getting a Keyboard/Mouse adaptor > for $22 at Staples and having it "just work" on a G4 tower... This after > carefully reading the packing and finding *not one* word saying that > it would work on Macs. Have problems with USB Hubs over W98se > though.. I tend to chalk these up to Win shortcomings. > I'm currently using a Dell usb keyboard on my G4 under Tiger, with a little app that remaps the "alt" and "ctrl" keys to "option" and "command". Also remapped F12 to work as the cd-eject key. Remapped Dashboard to fire under F8. Worked nicely in a pinch when my Apple clear mushboard stopped working one night... USB2 on my xp box is problematic - I have a Plextor external dvd burner mapped as X:. Whenever I connect the flash card reader, Windows suddenly forgets that the burner is there until I unplug it and re-plug. -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 15:42:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:42:34 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Is that really true? AFAIK, MS still packs MASM 6.1x with their Windows >DDK. > > > Well it is not standard with the windows I have. >And there are some PD programs, it seems to do similar stuff. > > > I found the PD stuff. >Early 8088 stuff wasn't worth writing home about. MASM 1.0 was a slow >buggy disaster, and Lattice C (sold by MS before they came out with their >own) wasn't much better. As far as I'm concerned, MASM 6.13 is about the >best version ever produced, even if it does require DPMI to run. > >For that matter, I prefer using flat 32-bit mode under an extender. No >worrying about segment boundaries, 64K array sizes, etc. Makes life much >easier--and runs faster on most platforms than 16-bit mode does. > >Of course, if you're using anything less than a 386, you're pretty much >stuck with 16-bit mode and segment headaches. > > > Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, would we have windows today? ** Well I did say 8088, so that is more on topic, as I wanted to play around with small - C for the 8080 and cross compile for a FPGA home brew computer. To get on topic for all the people that have a Z80 and CP/M check this page out. http://www.schorn.ch/cpm/intro.html SPL is new language for the z80 and some replacement CP/M software too. >Cheers, >Chuck > > ** and afford! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 16:08:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:08:32 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 2:42 PM woodelf wrote: >Well it is not standard with the windows I have. Was it ever standard with Windows or DOS? If memory serves, it was always an add-on package. IIRC, MASM 1.0 was abouit $100, which didn't make it much of a bargain. LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, but not MASM. ASM was standard with CP/M, but it was kind of brain-dead (no macro facility, linking or relocation). Most folks who wanted to program assembler seriously on 8 bit stuff picked up either M80/L80 or RMAC. Didn't the Polymorphic or Processor Tech systems box ship with a resident editor (BASC-style with line numbers) and a simple assembler? I seem to remember hacking the I/O in it to work with my MITS box. Even added a few of my own commands. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 2 16:08:36 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:08:36 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <20051201231406.51827741.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051202230836.62791cbe.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:40:13 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: [OpenBSD] > Unfortunately the last time I > checked, it still doesn't support multiple CPU's on Sparc Hardware. NetBSD does. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 2 16:50:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:50:42 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IQW002FF7E12EN1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:08:32 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/2/2005 at 2:42 PM woodelf wrote: > >>Well it is not standard with the windows I have. > >Was it ever standard with Windows or DOS? If memory serves, it was always >an add-on package. IIRC, MASM 1.0 was abouit $100, which didn't make it >much of a bargain. > >LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, but not MASM. ASM was standard with >CP/M, but it was kind of brain-dead (no macro facility, linking or >relocation). Most folks who wanted to program assembler seriously on 8 bit >stuff picked up either M80/L80 or RMAC. > >Didn't the Polymorphic or Processor Tech systems box ship with a resident >editor (BASC-style with line numbers) and a simple assembler? I seem to >remember hacking the I/O in it to work with my MITS box. Even added a few >of my own commands. > >Cheers, >Chuck > PTC did ALS-8 and you remember it. They werent the only one but it was notable. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 2 16:51:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Was it ever standard with Windows or DOS? If memory serves, it was always > an add-on package. IIRC, MASM 1.0 was abouit $100, which didn't make it > much of a bargain. MASM was never standard with PC-DOS or Windoze. But it WAS included by many OEMs with MS-DOS (for example Toshiba T300). It is included with Visual Studio. (Where does Microsoft get their product names???) > LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, was originally included with PC-DOS, but stopped being included (around 5.0?) also EXE2BIN.EXE -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 17:32:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:32:24 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051202183224.74809581.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 12:00:56 -0700 woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > >I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > >software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > > >Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > >external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > > >I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd > >like to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to > >make it worth while actually making that list. > > > >If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone > >may be interested? > > > >TIA, > > > >mike > > > > > > > You know it takes a good bit of digging to find basic 8088 > software, since windows has come out > since "link,lib,masm" are no longer around. So get your older > aps now while you can. > There are numerous mirrors of the old Simtel archive. And I personally know of a few sites that have mirrored some of the old 'shareware/shovelware' CDROM collections online. I won't broadcast the URLs here because they don't need the huge bandwidth bill, but you can find them. Often by just googling the filename of various old MS-DOS zipfiles that you remember and/or have. Private queries about the big sites I have found that mirror 'classic' DOS era CDROMs are welcomed. And maybe it's time for a 'CDROM exchange' type of thing. Not for warez purposes, just to back up the old shareware/freeware collections that many of us have a number of. It makes more sense to ship around CDs than it does for everyone to download everything individually. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 17:35:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:35:21 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:51:39 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Was it ever standard with Windows or DOS? If memory serves, > > it was always an add-on package. IIRC, MASM 1.0 was abouit > > $100, which didn't make it much of a bargain. > > MASM was never standard with PC-DOS or Windoze. > But it WAS included by many OEMs with MS-DOS (for example > Toshiba T300). > > It is included with Visual Studio. > (Where does Microsoft get their product names???) > I have an old version of MASM installed on my HP-95lx palmtop. > > LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, > was originally included with PC-DOS, but stopped being included > (around 5.0?) > also EXE2BIN.EXE And of course, always debug. People used to distribute small binaries as debug scripts ('pipe this textfile into debug and save') From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:41:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:41:57 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112.192.168.0.2.1133566917.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 2, 2005 12:47 pm, Cini, Richard said: > > On my PC at home, although I have "legacy" ports on my Shuttle XPC, I > don't > use them. I have a USB scanner and color printer. The laser printer is > attached to the network though a Netgear print server. The DV_cam connects > through FireWire and I use a card reader for the Memory Sticks from my > Sony camera. Same here apart from the firewire stuff since I don't have anything that uses it. > I personally have not had a problem with USB but maybe I'm not looking > hard > enough :-) I love USB - as a field engineer who has to deal with misbehaving PCs on a far too regular basis* I find my USB key with SLAX Linux installed sorts out an awful lot of the virus stroke worm problems we get in, also with Alpha VMS 8.x I get true USB support on Alphas...rah! For PCs that won't boot USB I've got a SLAX CD to boot which sets up a RAM disk like all the other bootable distros but allows me to add modules from the USB key on an ad-hoc basis. *I should point out my speciality is VAX/Alpha but I have to know the M$ stuff too :o| -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 17:42:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:42:47 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > games were infamous for it. Oddly, many copy protection schemes could be > defeated by simply patching the code to dummy up the subroutine that > reported that the copy protection was intact. Replace "many" with "some" and I'd agree. There were some schemes that were simply evil in their cleverness and ingenuity. King's Quest 2 encrypted the main code with a cypher kept somewhere abnormal (like a 10th sector or 41st track, can't remember the exact one) that was transparently missed by DISKCOPY: you could make a copy without errors, but it wouldn't work... and the decryption routine was itself obfuscated with some clever self-modifying code, so you couldn't just dump the raw code and (U)nassemble it -- in fact, you couldn't do THAT EITHER because the game was a bootable program with it's own disk routines. Took three weeks to unravel that monster, starting with the only code you *could* look at: the 512-byte boot sector. By far the worst was another bootable game (Dunzhin: Warriors of Ras) that didn't use INT 13h BIOS services to read diskette sectors, but rather raw NEC FDC commands. Int 13h is easy to work with; raw NEC commands are not, and I'm no Guzis or Dunfield :-) But I agree with you that some DOS-based games were so trivial that they could be cracked with a hex editor and not a debugger. For example, replace INT 13h disk call opcodes (CD13) with NOP opcodes (9090) and the program would just "fall through" the protection routine... or finding a list of null-terminated manual code words and changing them to ALL nuls and then you could merely hit Enter at the password request. I'm giving away too much information about myself, aren't I? :-) The future of software protection is coming, and it's not pretty. Public-key assymetric encryption schemes are already in use; your software phones the mothership to authenticate. Joy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 2 17:47:11 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:47:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> > > > LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, > > was originally included with PC-DOS, but stopped being included > > (around 5.0?) > > also EXE2BIN.EXE On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > And of course, always debug. People used to distribute small > binaries as debug scripts ('pipe this textfile into debug and > save') DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL included in Windoze, even XP. BTW, debug scripts can easily INCLUDE the save, and even the exit from debug. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:55:24 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:55:24 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1137.192.168.0.2.1133567724.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 2, 2005 1:52 pm, Jules Richardson said: > a GUI on top by people who probably know more about the game than anyone > else, > and supposedly the integration between the two is very good. Works for me, > (I don't dispute that there's a huge market for them from people who just > want > a machine for everyday office-type apps. Just wish there was a version > with more connectivity for us hacker types! :) That'll be the tower G3 or G4 then.....several PCI slots available for whatever you want, yes you have to buy add-on cards but I doubt they'll be expensive. As for OS support I was fairly gobsmacked to find that a G3 with OS9 will recognise my Compaq CRT, NEC LCD and USB several-button mouse without me having to do anything. > It never seems to do things quite as well as native ports - e.g. I could > add > various USB-to-whatever adapters, but they'd likely be flaky and not > particularly efficient. Naah. Perhaps back in the dark days of 'new' USB 1.0 but in the last 4 or 5 years it's been grand. Remember USB features many things dragged over from the Atari SIO so it has a good legacy..... > every external device, even though they all do different things and run at > different speeds", and somehow it became reality. Nobody learned from the > SCSI > years (where it typically becomes a disaster if connecting anything other > than a storage device :) Not quite, Apple came up with their implementation of the serial IEEE 1394 bus and called it 'firewire', all of a sudden the PC people were playing the catch-up game again. The thing that I haven't read much about yet is the relationship between said Atari SIO, USB and the first Firewire implementation. I think we're safe to assume that Firewire scared the PC brigade. Anyone with more intimate knowledge care to comment? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:04:04 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 00:04:04 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1156.192.168.0.2.1133568244.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 2, 2005 5:36 pm, Chuck Guzis said: > For those of us who like to play with homebrew hardware, one of the > handiest general-purpose interfaces out there is the PC parallel port I I > suspect its also why a lot of engineers keep a copy of MS-DOS somewhere in > their files). Articles for how to create some simple device attaching to > the PC parallel port still appear in EDN's "Ideas for Design" section. > > What comparable facility is there on the new Macs? Nothing, because they're not aimed at people who play with homebrewed hardware, neither I suspect are current PCs because that's not where the money is. New Macs are aimed at the market they've always been aimed at - graphics and media. Mac Minis are aimed at people who just use PCs for browsing/email/office/light graphics/music. > of things to come. A small sealed box and a desktop littlered with other > boxes. Don't know about wires--maybe it'll all be Bluetooth. Have you seen reports of the new Acorn RiscOS machine that is a cassette-sized metal box containing everything you need to do mac mini type stuff? Well worth checking out and I wish I could remember the URL of the article I was reading! It'll be buried somewhere in www.theregister.co.uk or www.silicon.com or www.theinquirer.net :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 18:11:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:11:35 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512021611350513.06AFF4F7@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 2:51 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >It is included with Visual Studio. >(Where does Microsoft get their product names???) I can't find it in VS 2005 aka VS 8. Maybe MS expects one to write all of one's assembly as C inline _asm statements? (P.S. Anyone noticed how SLOW VC 14.0 has gotten?) Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 18:13:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:13:06 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051202191306.6365f02b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:47:11 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, > > > was originally included with PC-DOS, but stopped being > > > included (around 5.0?) > > > also EXE2BIN.EXE > On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > And of course, always debug. People used to distribute small > > binaries as debug scripts ('pipe this textfile into debug and > > save') > > DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is > STILL included in Windoze, even XP. > > BTW, debug scripts can easily INCLUDE the save, and even the > exit from debug. One of my few contacts with the 'dark underworld' of virus writers was that years ago I bought a commercially pressed CDROM called 'Forbidden Subjects' which contains a lot of the taboo content off the old Internet. In the 'virus' section are some archives of Virus writer's newsletters. One of the things I noticed is that a lot of the classic old viruses were distributed as debug scripts. I was very unimpressed. Most of the 'technical' articles consisted of instructions how to create the binaries out of the debug scripts. Almost nothing about Assembly and no assembly language source code. It became apparent to me that almost the entire 'virus' underworld was composed of what now get called 'script kiddies.' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:14:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:14:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <200512020012.QAA21069@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Dec 1, 5 04:12:03 pm Message-ID: > After some time of carefully showing the system test > fellow a number of scope signals and carefully explaining > the reasons I was looking at particular locations, > I happened to glance at his notes. It went something > like this: > > D3, D5, D8, D20, D21 > > There were no symptoms and nothing of what I showed him > about scope information. I soon realized that he was ARGH!!! There is a saying in England 'Measure twuice and cut once', menaing it's better to re-check a measurement than ruin some metal/wood/whatever by cutting it too short. I would like to propse a new version 'Measure twice and solder once' meaning you should make measurements, think about them, and _only then_ start changing compoennts. > just interested in a list of parts that I indicated as > causing problems and wasn't even paying attention to > anything else I was doing. > The worst part was that since this was a one time > parts mix up, it probably would never happen again > so that his list was virtually worthless. I told This is actually another problem with those lists of stock faults. If a fault is caused by an under-rated componet, it's likely that, after a couple of years, all have failed and been replaced (hopefully with a better-rated version). And therefore if the same symptoms occur in the future, the cause could well be soemthing totally different. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:18:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:18:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <20051201170538.Q47897@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 1, 5 05:08:38 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > You;'d be suprised. Some people take offence at being told what they > > consider to be obvious. > > SOME of those folk are surprisingly skilled and experienced, but > hide their light under a bushel, and occasionally write posts that > can be misconstrued/misparsed as having come from a complete newbie. I always beleive 'Nothing is so obvious that somebody doesn't know it' [1]. I am also not sufficiently intellegent to know very much about anything, so I don't (normally?) take offence and being told the obvious... [1] This is a quote at the start of one chapter of a book on classic computer interefacing. Anyone care to guess the title? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:49:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:49:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <43901402.5030300@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 2, 5 09:29:38 am Message-ID: > Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came with > some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice compact THis reminds me of something that I've been looking for : A reasonably portable computer -- meaning it can be mains powered, but must be all one box (including keyboard and display), although I suppose I would accepta machine that needs a serial terminal (although not a PC-like machine that needs a monitor and keyboard) It needs to have some kind of local storage (either floppy disks or battery-backed RAM), and some way of transferring data to my linux box (floppies, or a serial port and e.g. kermit). And I want to be able to probram it in something above machine code (BASIC, Forth, a calculator-like keystroke language) Now for the problem. I want user ports, and lots of them. Plenty of digital I/O lines. An ADC would be nice too. And of course I want real documentation. Machines that come close are the HP71B (but the user ports are the 82165 modules, which need their own PSU) and the BBC Micro (but it's far too many boxes, machine, monitor, disk drive, etc). > well-designed machine with some useful connectivity too. It seems that no > matter what the USB-advocates say, bodging that sort of stuff on top of > Universal Screwed-up Bus plain doesn't work... I prefer 'Useless Serial Botch', on the grounds it's not universal, and it's not a bus. I saw another useless USB product today -- the USB Hamster Wheel. It was a little motorised treadmill wheel with a toy hamster in it, apparently it plugs into a USB port, you run the supplied Lusedoze drives, and it spins round when you typr. Hmmm.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:54:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <43901BC9.7080808@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 2, 5 10:02:49 am Message-ID: > > > However, they seem to be a lot less use when it's a one-off unit which > > you need to repair no matter what (like a classic computer). You're going > > to have to do real fault diagnosis sometimes anyway, it doesn't make it > > much more difficult to do it properly every time. > > I'm sure that by now, if a stock fault was going to appear it would have > done so by now. In my experience they tend to be design problems more > than anything else - like, oh for example, VT100 under-rated capacitors... Conversely, the fault has probably appeared on that unit, been repaired with better-rated components that don't fail again, so the current fault is due to something totally different :-) > > > >>In that case, for example, if you got a Ferguson ICC9-chassis TV on the > >>bench with no EW correction and excessive width, you'd go straight for a > >>particular electrolytic somewhere around the scan drive circuit. > >>Annoyingly enough I can't remember which one and my telly has just > >>started doing that... > > > > Alternatively you could get out he schematic, _understnad it_ and work > > out what components could cause this problem. > > If the schematic was available. In any case it's a pretty bog standard Are you seriously telling me the ICC9 service manual is not available anywhere? Because I find that very hard to believe (our TV, based on the ICC5 chassis, came with a sheet entitled 'customer service information' One side was a schematic, the other side was the layout and alignment instructions). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:28:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:28:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Art of Electronics In-Reply-To: <20051201214154.4c02b4cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 1, 5 09:41:54 pm Message-ID: > I have the first edition (black slipcover) and bought it back when I I bought both editions and both lab manuals, and never regretted any of them. The lab manuals have a fair amount of practical advice in them, and cover some stuff not in the main book (the second edtion has you making a simple 680008-based computer at the end :-)). I was lucky, I was in Cambridge (England) at the time, and one of the bookshops sold damaged Cambridge Universtiy Press books at a considerably discount. 'Damaged' meant crumpled corners, not missing or illegible pages. On the grounds I wanted to read said books (whereupon the corners would get dog-eared anyway), I bought a lot of stuff there, > was making a mere $4 an hour in the early 80's. And I have never > regretted that purchase. It is the 'modern' edition of 'The Radiotron > Designer's Handbook' which is a similar book from the vacuum tube FWIW, I have the Radiotron Designers Handbook too, and like it a lot. In fact I bought the reprinted one that was available about 10 years ago, and then later found an earlier edition in second-hand bookshop for very little money (I don't think they knew what it was). But I don't think the Radiotron Designers Handbook is that useful for repairing classic computers (although it _is_ a book I think every electronics hacker should have and should have read). > era. Lots of substancial content. The Art of Electronics can be your > ONLY electronics book and stand well in that role. Well, as you said, it was really for scientists desinging instrumentation. There are some areas it doesn't really cover -- valves, cathode ray tubes, radio, etc. If you are particularly interested in one of those areas, you are going to need to get some other books. But you still should get TAoE, it's a book that you will want to refer to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:58:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:58:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: from "Cini, Richard" at Dec 2, 5 07:47:27 am Message-ID: > > Doesn't that essentially get you a VIA EPIA motherboard (except for the > SCSI)? Only problem there is that it doesn't run OSX. > > On my PC at home, although I have "legacy" ports on my Shuttle XPC, I don't > use them. I have a USB scanner and color printer. The laser printer is > attached to the network though a Netgear print server. The DV_cam connects > through FireWire and I use a card reader for the Memory Sticks from my Sony > camera. I have a 56k modem, but it's internal. I don't really have any Err, where do you connect the EPROM programmer, the IC tester, the cable wirelister, the GAL programmer, the serial link to the PDP11, the GPIB-interfaced instruemtns [1], the HP calculator, and various other things that generally get hung off my PC ? [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but I've not seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB stuff is generally controller by HP hosts [2]) [2] I've managed to find the HPIB interface for the 9830. A load of TTL gates and almost no FFs. As soon as I get some space on the bench, I'll get it going... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:36:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:36:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <0IQU00IG8PGZCVD0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Dec 1, 5 10:25:54 pm Message-ID: > When It comes to books it's about thin only thing I spend too much > on. My library \begin{AOL} Me too. \end{AOL} I must own sver 1000 books, not just on classic computers (or even just on electronics). I've got a nearly complete set of Poole and Molloy (Radio and Television serviceing, the nearest equivalent to you would be the Riders manuals), about 1/3 of the MIT radiation lab series, etc. And of coure the Minix book, Knuth (The art of computer programming), all 5 volums of Computers and Typesetting, K&R, etc, etc, etc. And books on photography, camera repaiors, clockmaking, general engineering, databooks, etc. The only other thing I spend excessive amounts of money on is tools. It is said 'a bad workman blames his tools'. I claim that's partly because the good workman has got good tools and knows how to look after them. > includes books like the Radio Amatuers Handbook(arrl press) from for > about every > five years or when they made format changes about 1955 to current, OSDI Minix > second edition hard cover, K&R the little white book and a Bell Tel "A" size > copy from their think tank with margin notes, Of course the Grey, orange and > Blue walls and a couple of feet of the DEC handbooks. Then I get into things > like parts databooks going back to when dirt was being spec'd. Information Somewharre I have a valve databook that says 'the supply of this device cannot be guaranteed'. Reason? The book is from the middle of WW2.... > and the books that contain them are the single most precious part of what I > have because it spans all aspects of electronics. I would agree. While I use the Internet as a source of information, I do not for one moment believe it's replaced books (or will do in my lifetime, if ever). Fortunately the person who gets my collection if anything untoward should happen to me feels the same way about books and will certaing preserve all of mine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 17:41:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 23:41:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC In-Reply-To: <20051201234457.1ad05e5e.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 1, 5 11:44:57 pm Message-ID: > > I competed in the horserace called eBay last week and acquired what to > me is a wonderful piece of hardware- A commercially produced 8088 > single board computer that uses ALL TTL logic except for the 8088 > processor itself. It has a compliment of 8 bit input and output ports What, no MOS ROM or RAM chips (sorry, couldn't resist)! > made with 20-pin TTL chips, and the docs include full schematics. I can I have a thing called an MPF-88. (Microprofessor 88). It uses an 8088 processor with about 24K of SRAM (6264 chips), ROMs, and a lot of TTL. It's in a flat case about the size of a laptop, the front part of the top is a QWERTY keyboard and a 2-line LCD display, the rear section unclips to reveal the mainboard). There is one ISA slot (not full implemented, there's no DMA or inerrupt contorller chip from what I rememebr), and an expansio card edge that's much the same pinout. The ROM contains a monitor and a BIOS that's almost PC-compatible. I have an extenstion ROM in mine that will use an MDA or CGA card if one is present in place of the LCB. Oh yes, the manuals that came with it include full schematics and ROM source listings. Alas I never got the Forth ROM for mine :-(. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:09:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 00:09:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <04ce01c5f784$32bcb9a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Dec 2, 5 04:05:40 pm Message-ID: > USB is something of a miracle I'd have to say. Many good success USB seems to me to be the interfacing equivalent of certain GUI-based systems, in that it makes easy jobs trivial and difficult jobs almost impossible. USB probably works fine if you want to do what the manufacturers intended. But if, like me, you want to hack about, it appears it would really get in the way... I think I've mentioned before that my old-ish HP calculators have built-in RS232 ports. HP's intention was that you linked these to a PC and saved/loaded stuff (there's kermit and Xmodem in ROM on the calculator). But they work equally well to link to a serial printer or to a home-made data logger, or... The replacement has a USB port. It probably works fine with a PC to load/save programs and data. But it won't link to a printer or to a data logger or.... Since learnign how to wire an RS232 cable, I've never had any problems with RS232 interfaces if the documentation is complete (and if it's not, it's not that hard to work out what signals are needed). Of course the fact that none of my computers have, or could have, a USB interface is another matter.... Oddly, not being a programmer, I much prefer a command-line driven system to a GUI. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 18:18:14 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:18:14 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> games were infamous for it. Oddly, many copy protection schemes >> could be >> defeated by simply patching the code to dummy up the subroutine that >> reported that the copy protection was intact. > > > Replace "many" with "some" and I'd agree. There were some schemes > that were simply evil in their cleverness and ingenuity. King's Quest > 2 encrypted the main code with a cypher kept somewhere abnormal (like > a 10th sector or 41st track, can't remember the exact one) that was > transparently missed by DISKCOPY: you could make a copy without > errors, but it wouldn't work... and the decryption routine was itself > obfuscated with some clever self-modifying code, so you couldn't just > dump the raw code and (U)nassemble it -- in fact, you couldn't do THAT > EITHER because the game was a bootable program with it's own disk > routines. Took three weeks to unravel that monster, starting with the > only code you *could* look at: the 512-byte boot sector. > > By far the worst was another bootable game (Dunzhin: Warriors of Ras) > that didn't use INT 13h BIOS services to read diskette sectors, but > rather raw NEC FDC commands. Int 13h is easy to work with; raw NEC > commands are not, and I'm no Guzis or Dunfield :-) > > But I agree with you that some DOS-based games were so trivial that > they could be cracked with a hex editor and not a debugger. For > example, replace INT 13h disk call opcodes (CD13) with NOP opcodes > (9090) and the program would just "fall through" the protection > routine... or finding a list of null-terminated manual code words and > changing them to ALL nuls and then you could merely hit Enter at the > password request. > > I'm giving away too much information about myself, aren't I? :-) > > The future of software protection is coming, and it's not pretty. > Public-key assymetric encryption schemes are already in use; your > software phones the mothership to authenticate. Joy. Good reading but most games I'd buy rather than pirate. I will pirate out of print games, cause how else can you get them. Now the real grey area in games is now pirated but fan subtiltled or translated games from the Land of Japan. Alot of interesting tiles but not mass market stuff in the USA. I don't worry , I got a analog phone. :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 18:18:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:18:10 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512021618100911.06B5FD6A@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 5:42 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >simply evil in their cleverness and ingenuity. King's Quest 2 encrypted the >main code with a cypher kept somewhere abnormal (like a 10th sector or 41st >track, can't remember the exact one) that was transparently missed by >DISKCOPY: >you could make a copy without errors, but it wouldn't work... and the >decryption routine was itself obfuscated with some clever self-modifying >code, so you couldn't just dump the raw code and (U)nassemble it I'd have to go through my very very musty notes, but someone sent me a KQ 2 disk with an "I bet you can't crack this one". It was very clever, even with the INT 3 vector being clobbered, so you couldn't breakpoin it. However, most things will yield to interpretive execution or an ICE box. I used the former, but the latter would have been easier. P.S. I did crack it. (this was before DMCA, so I think it was still legal back then). Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 18:19:10 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:19:10 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4390E47E.8030404@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, >>>> >>>> >>>was originally included with PC-DOS, but stopped being included >>>(around 5.0?) >>>also EXE2BIN.EXE >>> >>> >On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > >>And of course, always debug. People used to distribute small >>binaries as debug scripts ('pipe this textfile into debug and >>save') >> >> > >DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL >included in Windoze, even XP. > >BTW, debug scripts can easily INCLUDE the save, and even the exit from >debug. > so that is how they upgrade! :D > > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:34:40 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 00:34:40 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy Message-ID: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Over at BinaryDinosaurs Towers I was 'slightly' pleased to get sent an Amiga 4000/040 that's been tricked out with a CyberStorm 3 68060/FastSCSI II CPU card and CyberVision 64/3D graphics complete with CD and drives. It's yellowed a lot so I'll be digging through the recent archives on 'curing yellowed plastic' that I foolishly ignored but the main question is on disk cloning. It's boot drive is a 2.5gb Fuji that needs percussive maintenance to get it to run so I'm in a need of cloning it ASAP. I've got a known good 2.1gb Quantum Fireball that I want to transfer the boot disk contents to, so far my experiments with linux (aside from dd) haven't worked since the drives are different sizes. Any CBM experts got any pointers for me? The current boot drive has lots of things on I want to keep though upgrading the OS to 3.5 would be nice since it has more internet flavoured tools. This brings me to another question - where can I get an ethernet board for this beastie? TIA :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 18:36:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:36:12 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512021611350513.06AFF4F7@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <200512021611350513.06AFF4F7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051202193612.46b352a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:11:35 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/2/2005 at 2:51 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >It is included with Visual Studio. > >(Where does Microsoft get their product names???) > > I can't find it in VS 2005 aka VS 8. Maybe MS expects one to > write all of one's assembly as C inline _asm statements? > > (P.S. Anyone noticed how SLOW VC 14.0 has gotten?) > > Cheers, > Chuck > I think you have to get the Device Driver Kit, which is the ONLY place Microsoft expects people to do any work in Assembly anymore. There are other places to grab a 'legal' copy of MASM. I bought a boxed set of the last version Microsoft ever sold as a retail box off eBay about two years ago. It would be neat if Microsoft would produce 'Microsoft Visual Assembler .NET' but I think they discourage that sort of thing. I have Visual Basic for MS-DOS, though (it's pretty cool in some regards). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:40:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:40:18 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came with >> some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice compact > > THis reminds me of something that I've been looking for : > > A reasonably portable computer -- meaning it can be mains powered, but > must be all one box (including keyboard and display), although I suppose > I would accepta machine that needs a serial terminal (although not a > PC-like machine that needs a monitor and keyboard) My immediate thought was BBC micro actually, as you mentioned, with a 3.5" floppy drive grafted into the back-right corner of the case (I think one *just* fits). Problem is I'm not sure what you'd do about display; I'm not sure if flat-panel LCDs exist that take component RGB at 80's sync rates as input. Not relevant in this case (because it's not documented and not fixable), but my old IBM Thinkpad laptop does pretty well for itself - it's new enough to have a USB port, but old enough to have both serial and parallel ports too. I regret giving a PCMCIA SCSI adapter away a few years ago, as with that available too, I could do *most* of the things that I do from the desktop PC. > I saw another useless USB product today -- the USB Hamster Wheel. It was > a little motorised treadmill wheel with a toy hamster in it, apparently > it plugs into a USB port, you run the supplied Lusedoze drives, and it > spins round when you typr. Hmmm.... A USB microwave or video recorder would be handy for those people too inept to use them directly :) I don't think anything's going to quite top the hamster, though. cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:49:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:49:43 +0000 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > Over at BinaryDinosaurs Towers I was 'slightly' pleased to get sent an > Amiga 4000/040 that's been tricked out with a CyberStorm 3 68060/FastSCSI > II CPU card and CyberVision 64/3D graphics complete with CD and drives. Wow. That sounds rather cool... > It's boot drive is a 2.5gb Fuji that needs percussive maintenance to get > it to run so I'm in a need of cloning it ASAP. I've got a known good 2.1gb > Quantum Fireball that I want to transfer the boot disk contents to, so far > my experiments with linux (aside from dd) haven't worked since the drives > are different sizes. Well get an image via dd of it quick! At least then you have the data intact even if the drive goes bang (and it takes a while to find a replacement). You'll *probably* find that a larger capacity drive will accept the dd image and work fine in the Amiga; you just won't be able to use the 'dead' space at the end of the replacement drive. Might be worth a try if you have another spare larger disk lying around the place. What sort of SCSI interface does it expect on the drive (narrow / wide / SCA)? cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 18:51:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:51:35 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202193612.46b352a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <200512021611350513.06AFF4F7@10.0.0.252> <20051202193612.46b352a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512021651350343.06D492D6@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 7:36 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >It would be neat if Microsoft would produce 'Microsoft Visual >Assembler .NET' but I think they discourage that sort of thing. I >have Visual Basic for MS-DOS, though (it's pretty cool in some >regards). Yeah, well, you know that with the release of NT, Microsoft wanted a completely portable operating system, so they could release versions for MIPS and Alpha. Boy, that idea sure died in a hurry! ML's in the 2000/XP DDK, though I don't know if it's in the Vista DDK. I'd be surprised if it was. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 18:54:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 16:54:23 -0800 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512021654230694.06D7246C@10.0.0.252> On 12/3/2005 at 12:40 AM Jules Richardson wrote: >A USB microwave or video recorder would be handy for those people too >inept to >use them directly :) I assume that you've already ordered your USB pencil sharpener, USB shaver and USB scalp massager. (Yes, they exist) for "stocking stuffers" for the holidays. --Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 2 18:58:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:58:40 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512021654230694.06D7246C@10.0.0.252> References: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> <200512021654230694.06D7246C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4390EDC0.2000006@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I assume that you've already ordered your USB pencil sharpener, USB shaver > and USB scalp massager. (Yes, they exist) for "stocking stuffers" for the > holidays. No. Now, if they did legacy serial versions... :-) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 19:06:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:06:35 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <4390EDC0.2000006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> <200512021654230694.06D7246C@10.0.0.252> <4390EDC0.2000006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051202200635.758d5a89.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:58:40 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I assume that you've already ordered your USB pencil > > sharpener, USB shaver and USB scalp massager. (Yes, they > > exist) for "stocking stuffers" for the holidays. > > No. Now, if they did legacy serial versions... :-) > > It would be trivial to produce the 'legacy converter' version of these devices since most of them only use the USB connector as a power source. Except you can't 'steal' that much current from a legacy serial device. I can remember serial Mice that wouldn't work because I was trying to use them on computers with pathetically low serial port voltage levels. I think it was an old Northgate 386 system, and the serial interface rails were about 3 volts. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Dec 2 19:41:17 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:41:17 -0600 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and 6809) Message-ID: I'm slowly starting to figure out what I want to do- the suggestions from the group seem to point towards 6809 or IMS6100 for the processor, so now I'm looking at representative designs to springboard from (first project). Found several online 6809 designs, but only one 6100 (at www.sparetimegizmos.com) Are there any good print resources on these? (other than the bitsavers/manx resources on PDP-8 and DECmates)? (I have datasheets) From micheladam at theedge.ca Fri Dec 2 20:09:16 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 19:09:16 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> Hi. Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like ObjectProfesionnal? Also, Microsoft TCP/IP SDK for DOS ? Borland ObjectVision 2.1 ? Faircom CTREE ? Thanks Michel Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: M H Stein Date: Friday, December 2, 2005 2:07 am Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd > like > to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it > worth while actually making that list. > > If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone > may be interested? > > TIA, > > mike > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 2 20:32:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:32:06 -0500 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and6809) Message-ID: <0IQW00CCIHMZAJY1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and6809) > From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 19:41:17 -0600 > To: > >I'm slowly starting to figure out what I want to do- the suggestions from the group seem to point towards 6809 or IMS6100 for the processor, so now I'm looking at representative designs to springboard from (first project). Found several online 6809 designs, but only one 6100 (at www.sparetimegizmos.com) Are there any good print resources on these? (other than the bitsavers/manx resources on PDP-8 and DECmates)? (I have datasheets)=0D=0A=0D=0A When you say print resources be more specific about what you looking for. I'm sure the info is available. Check out Dave Dunfields 6809 portable page at: www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum A very buildable and straightforward design. With a simulator as well and software that is interesting. I'm doing a varient on this one as the CUBIX OS is refreshing and fairly well documented. The sim allowed me to play with 6809 and the OS on the PC. Now if you've been to Bob's page www.sparetimegizmos.com then also check out a PDP-8 sim (win-8). The STG design is a really nice one as it really does the console as DEC PDP-8 complient rather than decmateII/III flavor. Makes a difference when your running paper tape software. [yes i know you can patch it but.. why if you dont have to.] There is a third choice the 1802 aka COSMAC or more common as the ELF. There are sims for that too. There are other CPUs like 8085, Z80 and relatives with sims around for them. Never minding 6800 and 6502s. So its a matter of taste. In all cases having a sim for the target machine will make design work and software more real and less dreaming. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 21:00:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 22:00:18 -0500 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and 6809) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051202220018.59d3e7dd.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:41:17 -0600 compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > I'm slowly starting to figure out what I want to do- the > suggestions from the group seem to point towards 6809 or IMS6100 > for the processor, so now I'm looking at representative designs > to springboard from (first project). Found several online 6809 > designs, but only one 6100 (at www.sparetimegizmos.com) Are > there any good print resources on these? (other than the > bitsavers/manx resources on PDP-8 and DECmates)? (I have > datasheets) > I have the Intercept Jr. technical docs. That gives you the docs for a machine that uses the 6100 processor. > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:05:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:05:08 -0600 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <43911974.3010608@oldskool.org> Witchy wrote: > This brings me to another question - where can I get an ethernet board for > this beastie? Good luck, they're rarer than hen's teeth. While I'm lucky enough to have a Ariadne II sitting 3 feet away from me, I've never gotten to work in OS 3.9 (haven't tried 3.5). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:05:39 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:05:39 -0600 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > intact even if the drive goes bang (and it takes a while to find a > replacement). They're SCSI drives, right? How hard can it be to find a 4GB SCSI drive? Those things are quite common... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:06:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:06:52 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> References: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <439119DC.7070303@oldskool.org> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like ObjectProfesionnal? Seconded, I have been looking for Object Professional for a decade! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:10:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:10:54 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL > included in Windoze, even XP. Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what video chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to download. (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d c000:0000" enter then enter again.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 22:29:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:29:48 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 10:10 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL >> included in Windoze, even XP. > >Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what >video >chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to download. >(Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d >c000:0000" >enter then enter again.) Hmmm, I must have the DEC OMPILATION chipset, 'cause c800:0 has: DEC OMPILATION OR DI SASSEMBLY PROHIB ITED Who'da guessed that DEC (somewhere, somehow) is still making chips? Actually, it's an Intel 82815, but I got that from Settings->Control Panel->System->Hardware->Device Manager->Display Adapters. I could have also found out by right-clicking the desktop and selecting Properties->Settings->Advanced->Adapter (that is, if I had the right display driver installed). Or I could have checked the registry... Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:38:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:38:35 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Good reading but most games I'd buy rather than pirate. I will pirate When you're 16 and broke (I had to go to a friend's house to use a 1200 baud modem when his Dad was out of the house -- "5 miles, uphill, both ways!"), you pirate. I did manage to scrape together enough to buy one or two games a year, but pirating helped me back then determine which games were worth paying for (usually games that came with high-quality materials in the box, like the thick informative glossy manual in Ancient Art of War, or the WWII history and tactics background novellas in some strategy games or flight sims). Now that I'm older and have cash, I still pirate: - Historical archival (old stuff) - Looking for something decent to buy (music, programs) and when I find something worth paying for, THEN I buy it Case in point: Four years ago I bought a DVD burner for $1000 to help me make a professional DVD for retail sale. I had some decent seed capital for the authoring software so I did some small research and bought Sonic DVD Pro or whatever it was called back then for $795. The reviews were way way off; it was such an unusable steaming pile of crap that I ended up not using it but WORST was I had to eat the $795 because I couldn't return it (it was an upgrade to bundled OEM software and Sonic only offered refunds for full versions, not upgrades). I went through two more programs before settling on ReelDVD which is what I ended up using to finish the project. My point is: Had I been able to pirate those programs, I would have saved myself $795 and 4 weeks of wasted time waiting for shipment->testing it->sending it back->waiting for refund->GOTO 10 etc. Early state of the industry or not, I'll always hate Sonic for taking my $795 (it remains my highest amount of "money thrown away" to date). Thankfully, most games and consumer-level software have demo copies that are somewhat functional, like the entire first level of a game, or a 30-day full-featured trial. That is one of the few things I like about the current state of hobbyist computing. Footnote: The very best x86 DVD authoring software in the sub-$5000 range used to be DVD Maestro -- but Apple bought the parent company and killed off the x86 division and products. There are people lined up around the block willing to drop $4500 for this software but it simply isn't available for sale. Fellow DVD producers I stay in contact with debate the pros/cons of pirating that software because it's unclear if it hurts anyone financially or legally. Then again, we're not lawyers :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 2 22:40:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:40:28 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>(Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d >>c000:0000" >>enter then enter again.) > > Hmmm, I must have the DEC OMPILATION chipset, 'cause c800:0 has: I wrote "c000" not "c800". No idea where that is coming from :) > I could have also found out by right-clicking the desktop and selecting > Properties->Settings->Advanced->Adapter (that is, if I had the right > display driver installed). Exactly :-) which is why I peek at the video card BIOS to determine what drivers I *really* need. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ryan at hack.net Fri Dec 2 22:46:12 2005 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:46:12 -0600 Subject: 6502 nixie project Message-ID: <43912314.3010203@hack.net> This has been occupying my time lately: http://www.hack.net/nixie It's my homebrew 6502-powered Nixie clock. Designed it from scratch; thought the other "classic computer" people here might enjoy the write up. -Ryan Brooks ryan at hack.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 2 22:52:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:52:04 -0800 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 10:05 PM -0600 12/2/05, Jim Leonard wrote: >Jules Richardson wrote: >>intact even if the drive goes bang (and it takes a while to find a >>replacement). > >They're SCSI drives, right? How hard can it be to find a 4GB SCSI >drive? Those things are quite common... Actually on an A1200 or an A4000 it could be IDE, however, based on how souped up that A4000 sounds to be, I'm guessing it's using the FW SCSI on the Cyberstorm accelerator. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 2 22:55:03 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 20:55:03 -0800 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <43911974.3010608@oldskool.org> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <43911974.3010608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 10:05 PM -0600 12/2/05, Jim Leonard wrote: >Witchy wrote: >>This brings me to another question - where can I get an ethernet board for >>this beastie? > >Good luck, they're rarer than hen's teeth. While I'm lucky enough >to have a Ariadne II sitting 3 feet away from me, I've never gotten >to work in OS 3.9 (haven't tried 3.5). I was lucky enough to get a 10Base2 card for my A3000, and it works with OS 3.9, the only thing I'm missing is an accelerator card (I'm stuck with the basic 68030/16 board). That card and my DECserver 90L+ are the only reasons that I have to keep 10Base2 around on my home network. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 23:01:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:01:55 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512022101550130.07B9BEF2@10.0.0.252> On 12/2/2005 at 10:40 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I wrote "c000" not "c800". No idea where that is coming from :) My typo--it was C000:0. As I was typing the message, I wondered if 2000 still supported CGA. Probably not. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 23:11:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:11:11 -0700 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and6809) In-Reply-To: <0IQW00CCIHMZAJY1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQW00CCIHMZAJY1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439128EF.40901@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >There are other CPUs like 8085, Z80 and relatives with sims around for them. >Never minding 6800 and 6502s. So its a matter of taste. > > > The 6100 makes a nice basic PDP-8 but remember the 8 requires paper tape for the basic system. >In all cases having a sim for the target machine will make design work and >software more real and less dreaming. > > > I find it the other way around, sims seem less real than hardware sitting on board even the design is never finished. A magnetic tape drive and old I/O does seem to feel like a massive computer even if todays equivelant fits on a stick of chewing gum. >Allison > >. > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Dec 2 23:17:18 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:17:18 -0800 Subject: EPROM Substitution Message-ID: <200512022117180935.7C615B63@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, I've got a nice item of Z80-based, 1986-vintage, telephone test gear that I'm trying to restore to working condition. The CPU board, as it currently stands, uses a pair of TI 2532 EPROM chips for program memory. I suspect both chips have become borderline in terms of their timing tolerances, so I need to replace these with the more readily available 2732, of which I have plenty. The pinout between the two chips is slightly different, thanks to the fact that the 2532 has only one enable line and the 2732 has two. I've come up with an idea for conversion, but I'd really like to get a sanity check on it, preferably from someone with an original TI data book that covers the 2532. Here's what I've got so far, based on comparing the pinouts of the two devices. (1) Move the trace originally connected to pin 18 (A11) on the 2532 up to pin 21, which appears to be A11 on the 2732. (2) Tie pin 18 to pin 20 so that, on the replacement 2732, both /CE and /OE are asserted simultaneously. Did I miss anything? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 2 23:24:10 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:24:10 -0700 Subject: 6502 nixie project In-Reply-To: <43912314.3010203@hack.net> References: <43912314.3010203@hack.net> Message-ID: <43912BFA.1080703@jetnet.ab.ca> Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > This has been occupying my time lately: > > http://www.hack.net/nixie > > It's my homebrew 6502-powered Nixie clock. Designed it from scratch; > thought the other "classic computer" people here might enjoy the write > up. > Nice clock. Forget the tiny buzzer , you want a real alarm, at least a 3 inch bell! Well if you got the extra memory a nice female wake up voice would be handy. :) From bob at jfcl.com Fri Dec 2 23:21:43 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 21:21:43 -0800 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and6809) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c5f7c9$7367d940$0401010a@jfcl.com> > Found several online 6809 designs, but only one 6100 (at > www.sparetimegizmos.com) Thanks :-) If you have any questions about it, let me know... Just to set the record straight, the SBC6120 is a 6120 based design, NOT the 6100. Don't know if that matters to you or not. I actually built (got as far as one assembled prototype) a 6100 design that was an updated Intercept Jr. It had a full 4K memory, a real KL8E compatible serial port, and could run any of the PDP-8 paper tape software. It also had the obligatory 7 segment led address/data display and twelve button keyboard. Never finished the firmware for it, I'm afraid. I might some day, but the interest is pretty light. And sadly, any practical 6100 design will never run OS/8 without a lot of extra hardware to implement the EMA. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 2 23:35:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:35:13 -0500 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100and6809) Message-ID: <0IQW001YYQ44E233@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100and6809) > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:11:11 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>There are other CPUs like 8085, Z80 and relatives with sims around for them. >>Never minding 6800 and 6502s. So its a matter of taste. >> >> >> >The 6100 makes a nice basic PDP-8 but remember the 8 requires paper tape >for the basic system. And thats a problem because??? If your using a TTY then tape is already there. Building a reader is trivial, I've done it. If you arr the kind that cant well you still want the interface to match up as you use a PC as PT:. Most will opt for the latter as there are a lot of "tapes" on line. The biggest limitation with the 6100 is 4k of memory. I have an Intersil Sampler and it's fun to use but 4KW is a big problem. Then it's build an EMA (in ttl it's not bad) or find a 6101 MEDIC which has the EMA in it. >>In all cases having a sim for the target machine will make design work and >>software more real and less dreaming. >> >I find it the other way around, sims seem less real than hardware >sitting on board even the design >is never finished. A magnetic tape drive and old I/O does seem to feel >like a massive computer >even if todays equivelant fits on a stick of chewing gum. Yes, but if your developing software a sim allows you to do that while waiting for a part or whatever. I have the same general complaint as it's not real hardware and I cant test my construction. Often I can test the logic or develop test or driver programs. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 2 23:53:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:53:45 -0500 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100and6809) Message-ID: <0IQW00M7FR0O8FE3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100and6809) > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:21:43 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > And sadly, any practical 6100 design will never run OS/8 without a lot of >extra hardware to implement the EMA. > >Bob EMA (without some of the timeshare wizzies) is not bad really in TTL. You need two three bit and one 6 bit register and the mux logic. Around that goes the IOT decode. And you can cheat and only implement an 8I and trim the IF and DF register to one bit for only 8kw ram. Which really reduces the hardware. It's also possible to extend it as there was a 8A version that could address 64kW (4 bit IF and DF). A few gals would make short work of it all. Like I'd said about the Intersil Sampler board, 4kW is not enough sometimes. so I did do the 8I minimal EMA (8k). The IF and DF regiser is a single 74ls74 and the SF register is also a 74ls74 the rest is interrupt logic (1ff) and addressing mux the IOTs are per DEC save for the active bits. By reducing the number of bits the logic needed (raw chip count) goes way down. However the 6120 really does make it a lot easier and it's faster too. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 2 23:59:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:59:31 -0800 Subject: EPROM Substitution In-Reply-To: <200512022117180935.7C615B63@192.168.42.129> References: <200512022117180935.7C615B63@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200512022159310282.07EE7ADD@10.0.0.252> You can simply tie CE\ on the 2732 low, rather than tying it to OE\. In both chips, a high on pin 20, regardless of what it's called sets the data output lines to Hi-Z. Otheriwse, it sounds as if you have a plan. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Dec 3 00:13:19 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 01:13:19 -0500 Subject: New Amiga toy References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <011901c5f7d0$a882cd90$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Witchy" To: Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:34 PM Subject: New Amiga toy > Over at BinaryDinosaurs Towers I was 'slightly' pleased to get sent an > Amiga 4000/040 that's been tricked out with a CyberStorm 3 68060/FastSCSI > II CPU card and CyberVision 64/3D graphics complete with CD and drives. > It's yellowed a lot so I'll be digging through the recent archives on > 'curing yellowed plastic' that I foolishly ignored but the main question > is on disk cloning. Looking at http://www.amiga-hardware.com the Phase 5: Cyberstorm Mk-III has a 68 pin SCSI connector. The manual is found here: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/cyberstormmkiii.lha Drivers here: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/drivers/A4000_A3000_Accelerators/Phase5_060Install.dms.readme For the Video card: manual: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/cv3dmanual.lha Dont see drivers for it there > > It's boot drive is a 2.5gb Fuji that needs percussive maintenance to get > it to run so I'm in a need of cloning it ASAP. I've got a known good 2.1gb > Quantum Fireball that I want to transfer the boot disk contents to, so far > my experiments with linux (aside from dd) haven't worked since the drives > are different sizes. > > Any CBM experts got any pointers for me? The current boot drive has lots > of things on I want to keep though upgrading the OS to 3.5 would be nice > since it has more internet flavoured tools. > > This brings me to another question - where can I get an ethernet board for > this beastie? > > TIA :) > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? Personally when I get an Amiga I remove the original drive and put it on the shelf, I then make a list of all the hardware and revisions and download all the drivers disks. I like rebuilding the system with a newer HD, this way I can make sure it is running 100% and I have all the files needed to redo it again from scratch if needed. Before rebuilding I also take the system apart and clean everything (also look for leaking batteries). The 060 chips sound interesting. Since I mainly play games with mine I stick to 030 processors. My A1200 has an 030/50 and my A2000 has a 030/40. The only machine that has a network card is the a1200 since it can use most 16 bit PCMCIA cards that are easy to get. What plans do you have for that machine? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 3 01:33:09 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 01:33:09 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512022101550130.07B9BEF2@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> <200512022101550130.07B9BEF2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43914A35.2040801@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My typo--it was C000:0. As I was typing the message, I wondered if 2000 > still supported CGA. Probably not. Nope. CGA was jettisoned in Windows 3.1 although you could copy over the driver from 3.0 and get it working (but I don't recommend it, the 200-line limitation of CGA is Just ran across this and had a good chuckle: http://toastytech.com/guis/misc.html The 320x240 Win95 one is my favorite. Actually, some of his historical shots like Xerox's, Visi-On, and GEOS are just fantastic. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Dec 3 02:18:39 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 09:18:39 +0100 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <68C414E6-63D5-11DA-9083-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zaterdag, 03.12.05, um 00:49 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Tony Duell: >> Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and >> came with >> some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice >> compact > > THis reminds me of something that I've been looking for : > > A reasonably portable computer -- meaning it can be mains powered, but > must be all one box (including keyboard and display), although I > suppose > I would accepta machine that needs a serial terminal (although not a > PC-like machine that needs a monitor and keyboard I use a portable DOLCH 386 for that : Lunchbox design with keyboard and plasma display. Fits a standard PC motherboard, mine now has a 133 MHz Pentium inside. It is stocked with Eprom programmer , BMC 20 analog/digital IO card, SCSI card , Ethernet, parallel port and dual RS232. It does not (yet) have USB. IDE and floppy interfaces are brought out, for those few occasions I still need a 5 1/4 Floppy. Best of all, these Dolch are very cheap on ebay. Main problems are : limited to the supplied ISA VGA card, haven't yet figured out how to use a PCI card for that Also limited to monochrome 640x480, because of the Plasma display. If you look upon the motherboard as a replaceable part, just like the CPU itself, it should fit Tony's requirements. ( and it does read PDF's, although at standard VGA it is not a pleasure. ) Jos From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 3 04:05:52 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 05:05:52 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <01C5F7C7.5AA14C40@ns1.syne-post.com> I just happen to have a sealed NIB ObjectVision 2.1 on a shelf beside me, although it may be spoken for (and you might have trouble getting the $10 rebate :); as to the rest, no idea at this time but not likely. It'll take me a while to dig through this stuff, so please send me a note off- list and I'll let you know when I have a list of what there is, condition, and what it's worth, if anything. TIA, mike (in Toronto) ------------------Original Message-------------- Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 19:09:16 -0700 From: micheladam at theedge.ca Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Hi. Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like ObjectProfesionnal? Also, Microsoft TCP/IP SDK for DOS ? Borland ObjectVision 2.1 ? Faircom CTREE ? Thanks Michel Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: M H Stein Date: Friday, December 2, 2005 2:07 am Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 04:20:12 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:20:12 +0000 Subject: 6502 nixie project In-Reply-To: <43912BFA.1080703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43912314.3010203@hack.net> <43912BFA.1080703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4391715C.3080807@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Ryan K. Brooks wrote: > >> This has been occupying my time lately: >> >> http://www.hack.net/nixie >> >> It's my homebrew 6502-powered Nixie clock. Designed it from scratch; >> thought the other "classic computer" people here might enjoy the write >> up. >> > Nice clock. Forget the tiny buzzer , you want a real alarm, at least a > 3 inch bell! > Well if you got the extra memory a nice female wake up voice would be > handy. :) From the article: 3 - Alarm annucator (future: is 4k or so enough for a small sample?) Possibly. A very small sample, though... Some old Simmons drum synths used an EPROM containing a sampled drum hit for each channel. Mostly they used 2764 or 27128 EPROMS, although the bass drum sample in mine is on a 2732. Playback was by means of a counter (change the counter clock to change the pitch) and a D-A converter on the data lines. It depends on the sample rate you want - for approximately telephone quality you need about an 8kHz sample rate, which would give you about half a second in 4k. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 04:41:30 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:41:30 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <438F91BE.2070506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> <438F91BE.2070506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4391765A.4030602@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > The stupid thing is things like real player are not open source so you > can't built it the way you want! > > https://helixcommunity.org/ I think it is... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 04:44:02 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:44:02 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051201183925.04751008@mail.30below.com> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <438F23F5.7070705@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <438F38A5.2030707@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051201183925.04751008@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <439176F2.3040806@gjcp.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > > >> >> Of course in a few years Microsoft will 'invent' Linux. We'll get a >> consistent desktop (but still a bad one), and a system that's >> inherently unstable. But the Microsoft-buying public will lap it up, >> thinking how clever Microsoft are for inventing something that - >> unbeknown to them - looks oddly like UNIX. :-) >> > > > Impossible. M$ only has a finite number of monkeys. > > [[ Seen somewhere on the 'net aeons ago, unknown original attribution > anymore... ]] Or my favourite - "Actually there's a MAXINT number of monkeys, but it's a good first-order approximation." Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 04:48:05 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:48:05 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439177E5.10209@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've had Linux in one form or the other since the very early release days > (0.something). I've never found it for use as a desktop system (especially > GUI) particularly compelling. I think many folks secretly hold the same > opinion, else why the rise of products like Wine? And there are some areas > where it really is deficient--multimedia for example. Specialized apps are > another area--I've never found a really good WYSIWYG musical notation > editor for Linux. Rosegarden is pretty good. If you're serious about computer-produced notation you'd use Lilypond though. From what I've seen of Rosegarden (I use hardware sequencers rather than stuff on the PC) it can export Lilypond source files. > As far as distros go, I started with Slackware, but have been using RH for > some time, simply because I've been using RH for some time.. It really > doesn't matter all that much--RH does tend to be very spotty in its > releases--you can often find some very old release of a package in their > distros--and they have the RH way of doing things. Debian isn't bad but > can get to be very confusing and verbose during installation--and help in > making choices is often difficult to find. I've also tried SuSE and it's > pretty good. I'm starting to get a bit - not annoyed, exactly, not disillusioned, but something - annoyed with Slackware recently. At least it's nice and easy to install. > But mostly, I want to install the blasted thing and be done with it. You want NetBSD for that. > Others have observed the bloat in Linux and I agree. I started running it > on an 8MB 386 and it was pretty snappy. I don't think that feat could be > reproduced with any of the current distros. You *definitely* want NetBSD for that. Gordon. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Dec 3 04:55:26 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:55:26 GMT Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <01C5F7C7.5AA14C40@ns1.syne-post.com> References: <01C5F7C7.5AA14C40@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: wrote: > Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like ObjectProfesionnal? Heh, guess I'm not the only person after Object Professional and Turbo Professional then :-) At one point, Turbopower were going to release Opro as open-source (like they did with Orpheus, Essentials and Lockbox). Seems it never happened - the project is up on Sourceforge, but no files have been released. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Now where did I put that fire extinguisher? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 04:54:54 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:54:54 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:46:04 -0800 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>Others have observed the bloat in Linux and I agree. I started running it >>on an 8MB 386 and it was pretty snappy. I don't think that feat could be >>reproduced with any of the current distros. >> >>Cheers, >>Chuck > > > > Same here. There are a few that barely run on anything less than p-III > class hardware. > > Since I have an abundance of older 486class stuff I use Freebsd 2.2.6 > and a 7 year old copy of Slackware or Caldera OpenlinuxV2.3 when I > want a linux box. *Why*, ffs? Why do people insist on using ancient copies of Linux on old hardware? There is *no difference in speed* between old and new kernels. In some cases newer ones are faster on the same old hardware. Stick 10.2 on there with a fairly minimal install. Everything is compiled for i386 or i486, so no worries on that score. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 05:09:26 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:09:26 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43917CE6.6010703@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > But I agree with you that some DOS-based games were so trivial that they > could be cracked with a hex editor and not a debugger. For example, I do remember the incredible feeling of achievement when I cracked the copy protection scheme on the cassette version of Jet Set Willy on the ZX Spectrum. For those who don't remember, it used coloured boxes in a complicated grid to give you a code - it would display "Please enter the code at location A5" and you'd look it up, and type in "3241" or whatever the colours were. In this case I used MERGE to get the loader to load but not run (common trick) and looked at where it jumped off into the machine code. Then I traced it through, using the Z80 opcodes in the back of the very stunningy fine manual, jotting it down, NOPing out a bit here, sticking a RET in there (crude breakpoints), until I discovered - there was nothing terribly clever going on, once it got a code it was happy with it just jumped to another address. No decryption, no magic stack contents (the last thing it did before jumping off was reset the stack pointer), nothing. Change the address in the loader's RANDOMISE USR line, and the game started up with no need for the code! Woohoo! So then I copied it onto a ZX Microdrive cart and I was set... I must have been about 13 or 14 at the time. I'm still pretty proud of it, really, my first real crack... Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 3 05:54:10 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:54:10 +0000 Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43918762.5050409@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > This is actually another problem with those lists of stock faults. If a > fault is caused by an under-rated componet, it's likely that, after a > couple of years, all have failed and been replaced (hopefully with a > better-rated version). And therefore if the same symptoms occur in the > future, the cause could well be soemthing totally different. Yes, the *next* under-rated component in line ;-) Gordon. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Dec 3 06:08:34 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 13:08:34 +0100 Subject: EPROM Substitution Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2231@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I vaguely remember that all 2532 and 2732 EPROMs were compatible *except* the TI one. (or was it an other manufacturer?) >From that one manufacturer the 2532 used a *second* power supply ... was it -5V? Memory is dropping bits :-( Check the board before you install a 2732 ! It's of course OK to put in an other TI 2532 (same as the original one). - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Bruce Lane Verzonden: za 03-12-2005 06:17 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: EPROM Substitution Fellow techies, I've got a nice item of Z80-based, 1986-vintage, telephone test gear that I'm trying to restore to working condition. The CPU board, as it currently stands, uses a pair of TI 2532 EPROM chips for program memory. I suspect both chips have become borderline in terms of their timing tolerances, so I need to replace these with the more readily available 2732, of which I have plenty. The pinout between the two chips is slightly different, thanks to the fact that the 2532 has only one enable line and the 2732 has two. I've come up with an idea for conversion, but I'd really like to get a sanity check on it, preferably from someone with an original TI data book that covers the 2532. Here's what I've got so far, based on comparing the pinouts of the two devices. (1) Move the trace originally connected to pin 18 (A11) on the 2532 up to pin 21, which appears to be A11 on the 2732. (2) Tie pin 18 to pin 20 so that, on the replacement 2732, both /CE and /OE are asserted simultaneously. Did I miss anything? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Dec 3 07:55:12 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 05:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43914A35.2040801@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 3, 5 01:33:09 am" Message-ID: <200512031355.FAA12530@floodgap.com> > Just ran across this and had a good chuckle: > http://toastytech.com/guis/misc.html Actually, this is my favourite: http://toastytech.com/guis/desk.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 08:23:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 03:23:09 +1300 Subject: The Art of Electronics In-Reply-To: References: <20051201214154.4c02b4cc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 12/3/05, Tony Duell wrote: > I bought both editions and both lab manuals, and never regretted any of > them. The lab manuals have a fair amount of practical advice in them, and > cover some stuff not in the main book (the second edtion has you making a > simple 680008-based computer at the end :-)). I have that student guide... Cost me $20 NZ at a used bookstore on the Cuba St. Mall in Wellington last Xmas. Very happy to have found it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 09:18:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 04:18:33 +1300 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/3/05, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but I've not > seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB stuff is generally > controller by HP hosts [2]) I think I've seen one - not cheap, but neither are PCI GPIB cards - if you need one, you *need* one and will pay. I've had the good fortune to rescue a couple of ISA GPIB cards, and one NuBus GPIB card. Never gotten a PCI GPIB for free, though. :-( -ethan From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 09:21:26 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:21:26 -0500 Subject: SCSI Controller, 1530 Datassette, Ebay seller, etc Message-ID: Ebay user ID nnn0iab has interesting stuff going up - HVD scsi controller, and such, I just noticed him while browsing commodore stuff on ebay, figure if he's got this sort of thing going up there might be more. Do any of you people watch specific sellers like this just to see if something interesting comes up? OH! And he's the seller of a 'christmas card holder' you might be interested in... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5642635569 - I wonder if that christmas card holder will sell for anythign higher then a few dollars... Are there any other interesting sellers you could point out to me? From jim at jkearney.com Sat Dec 3 09:34:28 2005 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:34:28 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini References: Message-ID: <016301c5f81f$0cb43b20$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" > [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but I've not > seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB stuff is generally > controller by HP hosts [2]) http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=482383&match_criteria=all&rec=&keywords=gpib& These guys (Spark Fun) have some very cool little assemblies that adapt various SMT devices to pin headers, and reasonably priced. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Dec 3 09:37:17 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:37:17 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051203103007.01bde4b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >On 12/3/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but I've not > > seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB stuff is generally > > controller by HP hosts [2]) > >I think I've seen one - not cheap, but neither are PCI GPIB cards - if >you need one, you *need* one and will pay. I've seen one in captivity! Saw one at a car dealership - they deal with both GM & Chrysler products, I *think* it was used on the Chrysler end o'things... Since then I found a website that had 'em for sale... I think around $220 to $250 USD each, but they had 'em. Google is your friend here... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 3 10:12:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 08:12:19 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <439177E5.10209@gjcp.net> References: <438F1959.1020308@yahoo.co.uk> <200512010946040911.0028A8DF@10.0.0.252> <439177E5.10209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200512030812190387.0A1F8301@10.0.0.252> On 12/3/2005 at 10:48 AM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Rosegarden is pretty good. If you're serious about computer-produced >notation you'd use Lilypond though. From what I've seen of Rosegarden >(I use hardware sequencers rather than stuff on the PC) it can export >Lilypond source files. I've tried writing orchestral and brass band scores with Rosegarden and gave up. It's just too difficult compared to the commercial Mac/Win packages. And, in spite of the hype on Lilypond (it's an engraving package, not an editor), when you need to do something that's unusual, it can be a real chore--you can't get Rosegarden to make the appropriate Lilypond file, so you're forced to go in an edit the notation file manually. There are other --nix based engraving tools, such as MusicTeX, but for the "I've got to get a quintet score out in less than an hour" task, none of the -nix tools is up to the job. And I know of no --nix package that has an OCR tool for scanning old scores. Indeed, one of the bastions of demonstrating what MusicTex can do, the Werner Icking Archive, has gone to accepting scores written in just about any notation package. I'll look into NetBSD, thanks for the recommendation. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 3 10:20:46 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 16:20:46 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 12:49 am, Jules Richardson said: >> II CPU card and CyberVision 64/3D graphics complete with CD and drives. > > Wow. That sounds rather cool... Nice machine :) Unfortunately the front plastic has yellowed badly so I'll have to dig through the archives for the 'yellowed plastic' thread of earlier this year.... > You'll *probably* find that a larger capacity drive will accept the dd > image It's the other way round - 2.5gb down to 2.1 though obviously the present disk is nowhere near full. > What sort of SCSI interface does it expect on the drive (narrow / wide / > SCA)? IDE :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 11:38:15 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 09:38:15 -0800 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <016301c5f81f$0cb43b20$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> References: <016301c5f81f$0cb43b20$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90512030938w7c76fa5dsefbebd73f02240ec@mail.gmail.com> On 12/3/05, Jim Kearney wrote: > > http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=482383&match_criteria=all&rec=&keywords=gpib& > > These guys (Spark Fun) have some very cool little assemblies that adapt > various SMT devices to pin headers, and reasonably priced. > Interesting device. Looks like it only lets you capture data off of the GPIB bus and cannot be used to control devices on the bus. The usual players sell complete USB based controllers around the same price as their PCI based controllers. National Instruments GPIB-USB-HS or GPIB-USB-B $495 Agilent 82357A USB/GPIB Interface $499 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 3 11:43:33 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 11:43:33 -0600 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100and6809) Message-ID: <530dc19800a84fb9a5f79b04c5424745@valleyimplants.com> Sounds like I'm back with 6809 as being easier to work with. I'll sit down with what I've got here and see what I can come up with (I'm more interested in designing than just having a "soldering skills test"). Scott From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 11:55:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 12:55:12 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/2/2005 at 10:10 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >>Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL >>>included in Windoze, even XP. >> >>Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what >>video >>chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to download. > > >>(Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d >>c000:0000" >>enter then enter again.) > > > Hmmm, I must have the DEC OMPILATION chipset, 'cause c800:0 has: > > DEC > OMPILATION OR DI > SASSEMBLY PROHIB > ITED > > Who'da guessed that DEC (somewhere, somehow) is still making chips? > > Actually, it's an Intel 82815, but I got that from Settings->Control > Panel->System->Hardware->Device Manager->Display Adapters. > > I could have also found out by right-clicking the desktop and selecting > Properties->Settings->Advanced->Adapter (that is, if I had the right > display driver installed). > > Or I could have checked the registry... Except, when I check using debug, the video card model isn't at c800:0. It's at c000:0180. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 3 12:01:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:01:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051203095835.I37887@shell.lmi.net> > >>(Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d > >>c000:0000" > >>enter then enter again.) > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Hmmm, I must have the DEC OMPILATION chipset, 'cause c800:0 has: > > DEC > > OMPILATION OR DI > > SASSEMBLY PROHIB > > ITED On Sat, 3 Dec 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Except, when I check using debug, the video card model isn't at c800:0. > It's at c000:0180. and at c000:00BD on this one (Asus). It appears to vary with different manufacturers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 12:08:28 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:08:28 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031008t1a11b851j@mail.gmail.com> Or I could have checked the registry... > > Except, when I check using debug, the video card model isn't at c800:0. > It's at c000:0180. > > Peace... Sridhar > When I tried that I got what must be the firmware version of the card, the model number of the card was at 0150. Dan From bob at jfcl.com Sat Dec 3 12:12:31 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:12:31 -0800 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art") In-Reply-To: <530dc19800a84fb9a5f79b04c5424745@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> >compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Sounds like I'm back with 6809 as being easier to work with. > I'll sit down with what I've got here and see what I can come > up with (I'm more interested in designing than just having a > "soldering skills test"). I love fooling around with old microprocessors too, but one of my issues is that I hate writing software for them. After I get all the hardware built, I'm kind of stuck with the question "Now what???" Toggling in little LED blinking programs and things like that gets old pretty fast. That's one reason I picked the 6120 - OS/8 and related stuff is readily available on the Internet - and the Elf - there's lots of original Elf software around, plus Mike Riley did a great job writing a real disk OS for it. I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around these days? Of course, you may not share my hangups about writing software ... Bob From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Sat Dec 3 12:22:51 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 13:22:51 -0500 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art") In-Reply-To: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: There is a free clone of OS9 called NitroOS. It's at http:// www.nitros9.org/. Does that mean we're likely to see a cool 6809 board from Spare Time Gizmos sometime soon? Put me on the list for one! On Dec 3, 2005, at 1:12 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >> Sounds like I'm back with 6809 as being easier to work with. >> I'll sit down with what I've got here and see what I can come >> up with (I'm more interested in designing than just having a >> "soldering skills test"). > > I love fooling around with old microprocessors too, but one of my > issues > is that I hate writing software for them. After I get all the > hardware > built, I'm kind of stuck with the question "Now what???" Toggling > in little > LED blinking programs and things like that gets old pretty fast. > That's one > reason I picked the 6120 - OS/8 and related stuff is readily > available on > the Internet - and the Elf - there's lots of original Elf software > around, > plus Mike Riley did a great job writing a real disk OS for it. > > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody > know the > status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 > floating around > these days? > > Of course, you may not share my hangups about writing software ... > > Bob > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 3 12:33:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 13:33:12 -0500 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design my firstmicro- looking for "prior art") Message-ID: <0IQX007SZQ692Y32@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design my firstmicro- looking for "prior art") > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 10:12:31 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >>compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >> Sounds like I'm back with 6809 as being easier to work with. >> I'll sit down with what I've got here and see what I can come >> up with (I'm more interested in designing than just having a >> "soldering skills test"). > > I love fooling around with old microprocessors too, but one of my issues >is that I hate writing software for them. After I get all the hardware >built, I'm kind of stuck with the question "Now what???" Toggling in little >LED blinking programs and things like that gets old pretty fast. That's one >reason I picked the 6120 - OS/8 and related stuff is readily available on >the Internet - and the Elf - there's lots of original Elf software around, >plus Mike Riley did a great job writing a real disk OS for it. > > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the >status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around >these days? > > Of course, you may not share my hangups about writing software ... > >Bob look at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Scan down to homebrew and 6809. Dave did both a simple 6809 and a full up OS and supporting tools including a simulator so you can drive it now. the think I liked most is the kernel is 8k and the sources are there as well as decent docs. OS9 seems to be tied to existing hardware like coco and I'm not sure sources are out there as free. Allison From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 12:35:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 13:35:18 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391DC00.4020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/3/05 12:55 PM, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/2/2005 at 10:10 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >> >> Hmmm, I must have the DEC OMPILATION chipset, 'cause c800:0 has: >> >> DEC >> OMPILATION OR DI >> SASSEMBLY PROHIB >> ITED >> >> Who'da guessed that DEC (somewhere, somehow) is still making chips? ^-- Took me forever to realize that was a joke ... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 3 13:26:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:26:01 +0000 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4391F149.9040507@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Sat, December 3, 2005 12:49 am, Jules Richardson said: >> You'll *probably* find that a larger capacity drive will accept the dd >> image > > It's the other way round - 2.5gb down to 2.1 though obviously the present > disk is nowhere near full. But for a sane system you *should* be able to take the dd image and put it back on a larger capacity drive in the Amiga, and everything should just work. Possible exceptions: 1) Any hardware that supports some kind of "put this x blocks from the *end* of the disk" is obviously going to fail, because the end of the disk won't be where it used to be. I don't know of anything nuts enough to actually do this :) 2) If partition table settings are specified in terms of cyls/heads/sectors, rather than block lengths / offsets from the start of the drive, you're likely going to have problems. No idea how Amiga disk ystems work, so I don't know if it's an issue or not. Presumably the partition table / filesystem format is well-documented though, so even if (2) is a problem, you could chop a raw dd archive of the failing disk up into chunks of partition data, and write those out along with an appropriate revised partition table to the 'new' disk. >> What sort of SCSI interface does it expect on the drive (narrow / wide / >> SCA)? > > IDE :) Ahh, no spare drives here then. Generally, I don't 'do' IDE. Took me well over a year to find a replacement IDE disk for my RiscPC (that was around 2.5GB too) cheers J. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 3 13:29:27 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:29:27 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051202193612.46b352a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <200512021611350513.06AFF4F7@10.0.0.252> <20051202193612.46b352a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4391F217.4000406@deltasoft.com> > I think you have to get the Device Driver Kit, which is the ONLY > place Microsoft expects people to do any work in Assembly anymore. > There are other places to grab a 'legal' copy of MASM. I bought > a boxed set of the last version Microsoft ever sold as a retail > box off eBay about two years ago. MASM 6.11 is also available via MSDN. g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 3 13:30:45 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 11:30:45 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439119DC.7070303@oldskool.org> References: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> <439119DC.7070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4391F265.4010106@deltasoft.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > >> Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like >> ObjectProfesionnal? > > > Seconded, I have been looking for Object Professional for a decade! Which version? g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sat Dec 3 13:33:18 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 20:33:18 +0100 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4391F2FE.6050602@ais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf wrote: > Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came > out, would we have windows > today? Ahem, there were better OSs at or shortly after the time 386's came out... but "better" does not mean that they were in wide use. Note the VHS vs. Betamax effect. > ** Well I did say 8088, so that is more on topic, as I wanted to > play around with small - C for the > 8080 and cross compile for a FPGA home brew computer. There is plenty of stuff around there which does not primarily require 80x86s with DOS or Windows (or rather, just with emulators as a bootstrap for a native system). > To get on topic for all the people that have a Z80 and CP/M check this > page out. > http://www.schorn.ch/cpm/intro.html SPL is new language for the z80 > and some replacement > CP/M software too. There were numerous scripting languages for CP/M and/or 8080/z80 based systems. Unfortunately, none really persuaded me to use them beyond the "hello world" level. They were typically at some sort of DOS batch level - if you want to really program something, it pretty fast results in obscure hacking as some constructs were not very well thought through. Compare this to the prior Bliss or DCL languages known from DEC, which I liked pretty much those days. Same goes for the PDP MAC assembler with its accompanying macro libraries. CP/M 3 had RMAC which would be comparable, but I have never really seen it in use with really sophisticated macros. Holger From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 3 14:01:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:01:38 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391F265.4010106@deltasoft.com> References: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> <439119DC.7070303@oldskool.org> <4391F265.4010106@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <4391F9A2.60905@oldskool.org> Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Seconded, I have been looking for Object Professional for a decade! > > Which version? Preferably the most recent one :-) but I'll take anything. I've wanted to go through Kim's code for a while to see how he solved certain problems. Object Professional is the only thing that is NOT available for download on the sourceforge site; no idea why... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 14:24:03 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:24:03 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391F2FE.6050602@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391F2FE.6050602@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031224u348eff1bl@mail.gmail.com> > woodelf wrote: > > > Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came > > out, would we have windows > > today? > OS/2 ? Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 14:26:39 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:26:39 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512031224u348eff1bl@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391F2FE.6050602@ais.fraunhofer.de> <26c11a640512031224u348eff1bl@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031226g2b8d15e6n@mail.gmail.com> On 03/12/05, Dan Williams wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > > > > Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came > > > out, would we have windows > > > today? > > > OS/2 ? > > Dan > Pressed send too quickly, Here's a page with 386 software, all versions of windows and apps. If anyone is interested : http://www.angelfire.com/ca7/the386experience/downloads.html Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 14:30:38 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:30:38 +0000 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <4391F149.9040507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4391F149.9040507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031230y27e95d10y@mail.gmail.com> Here's some for ?15+vat, not cheap compared to larger drives, but not extortionate either : http://www.ultratec.co.uk/stocklists/Search-ResShopnew.asp?model=D2784A Dan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 3 14:34:24 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 12:34:24 -0800 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art") In-Reply-To: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200512031234.24558.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Bob, On Saturday 03 December 2005 10:12, Robert Armstrong wrote: --snip-- > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the > status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around > these days? Some years ago, I gave a buddy of mine in the east coast two 6809 systems running OS/9. I gave him complete sets of the OS/9 operating system, associated software, manuals, spare parts, etc. I've sent him an email - and will let you know if he still has it and if I can get copies of the software/manuals made. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:00:32 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:00:32 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <43911974.3010608@oldskool.org> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <43911974.3010608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1102.192.168.0.2.1133643632.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 4:05 am, Jim Leonard said: > > Good luck, they're rarer than hen's teeth. While I'm lucky enough to have > a > Ariadne II sitting 3 feet away from me, I've never gotten to work in OS > 3.9 (haven't tried 3.5). Bugger. I'd have thought at least the Germans would have made a ZORRO Ethernet board up until the late 90s. I found a website that mentioned at least 5 different boards, 2 of which followed the CBM naming convention though I guess it's the getting hold of one is what's going to prove difficult. At present the machine's running OS3.0 but I've got a 3.5 CD that I'm going to install on another drive. Cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:01:11 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:01:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1104.192.168.0.2.1133643671.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 4:05 am, Jim Leonard said: > > They're SCSI drives, right? How hard can it be to find a 4GB SCSI drive? > Those things are quite common... IDE in this case, but your question still stands :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From bob at jfcl.com Sat Dec 3 15:05:42 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 13:05:42 -0800 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design myfirst micro- looking for "prior art") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c5f84d$56280240$0401010a@jfcl.com> >David Betz wrote: > There is a free clone of OS9 called NitroOS. It's at http://www.nitros9.org/. Looks nice, but how tied is this to the CoCo hardware? All the source code is available, so I guess you could always port it if you have the time. > Does that mean we're likely to see a cool 6809 board from Spare Time > Gizmos sometime soon? Put me on the list for one! Maybe, but it sounds like Scott is going to do one too. I don't want to steal his idea. If I was going to do it I'd want some software person who was willing to do the porting of OS/whatever to it - I just don't have the time for that myself. Actually, I'd rather do a Z80-CP/M machine, but the same problem applies (need a software person to port CP/M). Bob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:09:23 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:09:23 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <43911993.5020703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1131.192.168.0.2.1133644163.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 4:52 am, Zane H. Healy said: > > Actually on an A1200 or an A4000 it could be IDE, however, based on > how souped up that A4000 sounds to be, I'm guessing it's using the FW > SCSI on the Cyberstorm accelerator. Oddly, it isn't. Mind, having said that I've just had a thought. The machine won't boot until the IDE drive is online but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the boot drive does it? I'll find out tomorrow when I'm back with my Amiga monitors.....if the boot drive is the 2gb SCSI drive that's also in there I'm laughing. Also I've plenty of 2/4gb SCSI drives lying around..... cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:23:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:23:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <4390E972.1080800@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 3, 5 00:40:18 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came with > >> some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice compact > > > > THis reminds me of something that I've been looking for : > > > > A reasonably portable computer -- meaning it can be mains powered, but > > must be all one box (including keyboard and display), although I suppose > > I would accepta machine that needs a serial terminal (although not a > > PC-like machine that needs a monitor and keyboard) > > My immediate thought was BBC micro actually, as you mentioned, with a 3.5" The other thing against the Beeb is that it doesn't really have enough user I/O lines (just one 8 bit port, I would prefer at least 4 times that). Yes I could add more, but if I am going to start homebrewing stuff I might as well make the whole machine. A machine that comes close is the Sage II (it's got GPIB as standard, a system bus I could easily add a user port to, but see above, and runs off a seiral terminal). Another possibilty is the HP Integral PC (but where the heck do I find the GPIO card for that?) > floppy drive grafted into the back-right corner of the case (I think one > *just* fits). Problem is I'm not sure what you'd do about display; I'm not Interesting idea! > sure if flat-panel LCDs exist that take component RGB at 80's sync rates as input. Flat-screen TV? I am not sure they come small enough.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:25:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:25:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512021654230694.06D7246C@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 2, 5 04:54:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/3/2005 at 12:40 AM Jules Richardson wrote: > > >A USB microwave or video recorder would be handy for those people too > >inept to > >use them directly :) > > I assume that you've already ordered your USB pencil sharpener, USB shaver Where do I find USB pencils to be sharpened by this device (the lack of a proper way ro associate adjectives in English is a common moan of mine) :-) > and USB scalp massager. (Yes, they exist) for "stocking stuffers" for the > holidays. Well, not having got anything with a USB port, the answer shoukld be obvious... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:30:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:30:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <20051202200635.758d5a89.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 2, 5 08:06:35 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:58:40 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I assume that you've already ordered your USB pencil > > > sharpener, USB shaver and USB scalp massager. (Yes, they > > > exist) for "stocking stuffers" for the holidays. > > > > No. Now, if they did legacy serial versions... :-) > > > > > It would be trivial to produce the 'legacy converter' version of > these devices since most of them only use the USB connector as a The hamster wheel I mentioned didn't just use the USB connector as a 5V power supply, on the grounds there was a CD-ROM of driver software with it (you know, I can remember when a device driver and its source code would fit on one floppy disk. Darn code-bloat!). Before you suggest it, I have no intention of buying said product, pulling it apart and trying to figure out how it works. There's going to be some unknown silicon (at least a microcontroller) in there. To be honest, I've got many more interesting _classic_ machines to work on. > power source. Except you can't 'steal' that much current from a Of course I have plenty of 5V PSUs around here.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:39:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:39:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM Substitution In-Reply-To: <200512022117180935.7C615B63@192.168.42.129> from "Bruce Lane" at Dec 2, 5 09:17:18 pm Message-ID: > The pinout between the two chips is slightly different, thanks to the > fact that the 2532 has only one enable line and the 2732 has two. I've > come up with an idea for conversion, but I'd really like to get a sanity > check on it, preferably from someone with an original TI data book that > covers the 2532. > > Here's what I've got so far, based on comparing the pinouts of the > two devices. > > (1) Move the trace originally connected to pin 18 (A11) on the 2532 > up to pin 21, which appears to be A11 on the 2732. > > (2) Tie pin 18 to pin 20 so that, on the replacement 2732, both /CE > and /OE are asserted simultaneously. Yes... That should work. Alternatives for (2) are to ground one of the enable lines and connect the other one to the enable line from your address decoder. Watch out, though, that many EPROMs take a lot more supply current when enavbled (CE/ low) than when they're disabled, so if the PSU is marginal-ish, you might have problems if the EPROM is held enabled all the time. Linking OE/ and CE/ together avoids this, but note that the CE/ assetyed - to - data - valid time is often longer than the OE/ asserted - to - data - vaolid time, which might be a problem in timing-critical systems. I've done this sort of thing many times, normally to replace a masked ROM with an EPROM containing a modified version of the firmware. What I normally do is put a turned pin socket in place of the EPROM on the PCB. Then make up a little daughterboard using stripboard, another socket, and some turned pin header pins. Cut and jumper as appropriate. Of course you put the socket sltightly offset from the pins (but not totally outside them) so as to be able to use the stripboard tracks for the signals you don't want to move around. This way I can easily go back to the original set-up if I want to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:43:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:43:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <68C414E6-63D5-11DA-9083-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 3, 5 09:18:39 am Message-ID: > > A reasonably portable computer -- meaning it can be mains powered, but > > must be all one box (including keyboard and display), although I > > suppose > > I would accepta machine that needs a serial terminal (although not a > > PC-like machine that needs a monitor and keyboard > > I use a portable DOLCH 386 for that : Lunchbox design with keyboard and [...] > Main problems are : limited to the supplied ISA VGA card, haven't yet > figured out how to use a PCI card for that > Also limited to monochrome 640x480, because of the Plasma display. What do you do if the VGA card fails? Doesn't sound easily fixable or replaceable? > > If you look upon the motherboard as a replaceable part, just like the > CPU itself, it should fit Tony's requirements. My views on this have not changed :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:44:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:44:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More parts I need to replace on the VT100 In-Reply-To: <43918762.5050409@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 3, 5 11:54:10 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > This is actually another problem with those lists of stock faults. If a > > fault is caused by an under-rated componet, it's likely that, after a > > couple of years, all have failed and been replaced (hopefully with a > > better-rated version). And therefore if the same symptoms occur in the > > future, the cause could well be soemthing totally different. > > Yes, the *next* under-rated component in line ;-) Sure, and that may _not_ be in the stock-faults database... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 3 15:46:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 21:46:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM Substitution In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2231@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Dec 3, 5 01:08:34 pm Message-ID: > > I vaguely remember that all 2532 and 2732 EPROMs were compatible *except* t= > he TI one. > (or was it an other manufacturer?) > >From that one manufacturer the 2532 used a *second* power supply ... was it= > -5V? You're thinking of the 2K byte (16K bit) EPROMs. Everybody but TI made a 2716 that was single-rail (+5V supply only). TI's 2716 was a 3-rail part (+5V, +12V, -5V), the TI 2516 was single-rail part and much the same as everyone else's 2716. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 3 16:06:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:06:53 -0500 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to designmyfirstmicro- looking for "prior art") Message-ID: <0IQY008NT02CCGL4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to designmyfirstmicro- looking for "prior art") > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 13:05:42 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > Actually, I'd rather do a Z80-CP/M machine, but the same problem applies >(need a software person to port CP/M). > >Bob That I can do in my sleep. The only caveat would be if it had a device not laying around as yet.. Always an excuse to play with new devices. I've done it enough times and re did some ports as well. The real question I would ask is CP/M2 or one of the later ones off the P2DOS tree (z80 compatable cp/m clones) that offer larger disks (greater than 8mb logical drives)? It's a BIOS, system specific docs and setting up a standard package task. Allison From dbwood at kc.rr.com Sat Dec 3 16:31:26 2005 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 16:31:26 -0600 Subject: Original Dr. Dobbs Issues References: <0IQY008NT02CCGL4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003f01c5f859$4cf32c70$687ba8c0@EPICIS> Are there any online archive(s) of the original Dr. Dobbs journals? TIA Douglas Wood From bobwyates at earthlink.net Sat Dec 3 16:33:32 2005 From: bobwyates at earthlink.net (Bob Yates) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 16:33:32 -0600 Subject: trying to design my first micro- looking for "prior art" (6100 and6809) In-Reply-To: <200512030537.jB35bAEQ033307@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512030537.jB35bAEQ033307@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43921D3C.2080602@earthlink.net> Might be some ideals here. Excuse me if this has already been mentioned, not following the list too closely. http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp8x/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 3 16:38:37 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 14:38:37 -0800 Subject: FW: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design myfirst micro- looking for "prior art") In-Reply-To: <001e01c5f84d$7fef0bf0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <001e01c5f84d$7fef0bf0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200512031438.37691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 03 December 2005 13:06, Robert Armstrong wrote: > Thanks, Lyle. Just for my own personal interest I'd love to know. > > But if it's going to become a larger project, then a lot will depend on > the current copyright status of OS/9. Do you know anything about the > current owners? IIRC, OS-9 was developed by Microware and Microware is now owned by RadiSys: http://www.radisys.com/oem_products/microware_OS-9.cfm I'm not sure how they would "view" their old versions for the 680x chips - which appear to be no longer supported... BTW: Note that it's "OS-9" and NOT "OS/9" - I had forgotton that little tidbit. Cheers, Lyle > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design > myfirst micro- looking for "prior art") > > > Bob, > > On Saturday 03 December 2005 10:12, Robert Armstrong wrote: > --snip-- > > > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody > > know the status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 > > floating around these days? > > Some years ago, I gave a buddy of mine in the east coast two 6809 systems > running OS/9. I gave him complete sets of the OS/9 operating system, > associated software, manuals, spare parts, etc. > > I've sent him an email - and will let you know if he still has it and if I > can > get copies of the software/manuals made. > > Cheers, > Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Dec 3 16:36:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:36:41 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512031224u348eff1bl@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391F2FE.6050602@ais.fraunhofer.de> <26c11a640512031224u348eff1bl@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051203173641.39bdeea8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:24:03 +0000 Dan Williams wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > > > > Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the > > > 386's came out, would we have windows > > > today? > > > OS/2 ? > When OS/2 was first coming out, there were MS-DOS enthusiasts who were very leery of it. Mainly because it came out in the same time period as the PS/2 Microchannel systems, and some people viewed it as a threat, as IBM's attempt to 'close the architecture' and grab back control of the PC platform. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Dec 3 16:50:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:50:05 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051203175005.1ec8a414.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 04:18:33 +1300 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/3/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but > > I've not seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB > > stuff is generally controller by HP hosts [2]) > > I think I've seen one - not cheap, but neither are PCI GPIB > cards - if you need one, you *need* one and will pay. > > I've had the good fortune to rescue a couple of ISA GPIB cards, > and one NuBus GPIB card. Never gotten a PCI GPIB for free, > though. :-( > I have an old Mac II (the big case, the huge number of NuBus slots, etc.) that has a GPIB card in it. Actually it has two National Instruments cards in it and Labview on the hard drive. Very early Labview. I got it at a University Auction a few years ago and realized it was a complete system set up for Data Acquisition, and saved it as a unit. Went to the IUPUI Auction this morning, came home with a lot of modern junk, a pile of Sun Pizzaboxes, a Mac IIci, and a nice Mac SE. Up until now the only 'compact Macs' I have had are SE/30's and a Plus. I am going to have to dig around to see if I can find a MacOS version on 800K disks, as the SE is one that only has an 800K floppy (according to the label on the back). Is it possible to swap in a newer Superdrive? I have piles and piles of those. Not sure if I want to, though, it 'spoils the patina' on the SE to start yanking out parts and changing it. Note- Pentium III machines have finally become 'old' enough that you can get a whole pile of them really cheap in a bulk bid at an auction, after everybody has picked over and got their single systems out of the group up for auction. And to think I consider a Pentium III system to be an 'up to date' system. . . From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 3 17:22:27 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:22:27 -0800 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512031522270022.0BA94BE7@10.0.0.252> On 12/3/2005 at 4:20 PM Witchy wrote: >Nice machine :) Unfortunately the front plastic has yellowed badly so I'll >have to dig through the archives for the 'yellowed plastic' thread of >earlier this year.... Mask the important parts (logo, etc.) and paint it. That's the only way I know of to get folks to wondering where the yellow went. Actually, many plastic cases are painted today. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 3 17:31:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 15:31:44 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43914A35.2040801@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> <200512022101550130.07B9BEF2@10.0.0.252> <43914A35.2040801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512031531440502.0BB1CD73@10.0.0.252> On 12/3/2005 at 1:33 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Nope. CGA was jettisoned in Windows 3.1 although you could copy over the >driver from 3.0 and get it working (but I don't recommend it... Grazingly OT: Is there any formal Windows standard that requires a video adapter to have a BIOS extension at C000:0? If one were present, say, at E000:0--or completely absent, would XP still work with it? --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 3 17:47:55 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:47:55 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <200512031522270022.0BA94BE7@10.0.0.252> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4390EBA7.6000902@yahoo.co.uk> <1102.192.168.0.2.1133626846.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <200512031522270022.0BA94BE7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1483.192.168.0.2.1133653675.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 11:22 pm, Chuck Guzis said: > On 12/3/2005 at 4:20 PM Witchy wrote: > >>Nice machine :) Unfortunately the front plastic has yellowed badly so >> I'll >>have to dig through the archives for the 'yellowed plastic' thread of >>earlier this year.... > > Mask the important parts (logo, etc.) and paint it. That's the only way I > know of to get folks to wondering where the yellow went. Actually, many > plastic cases are painted today. Good thinking, but how do I attack the keyboard :o) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 3 17:58:39 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:58:39 -0600 Subject: Mac Mini Message-ID: <100cc2bcea7f41ce9ec3b91dd028641b@valleyimplants.com> For a SE to run SuperDrives, you need the FDHD ROM upgrade (similarly, for a II you need the Mac II SuperDrive upgrade, which is a set of IIx ROMs). SEs make a nice bridge system, though, set them up with an 800k drive, network, and a version of System 6 and they are good for writing out 400k floppies. System 7 had issues with MFS (400k floppy filesystem). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 3 18:05:51 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:05:51 -0600 Subject: OS/9 and software for the 6809 (was RE: trying to design Message-ID: <8a9d92e2556b48edb0626c88683ab51f@valleyimplants.com> >Does that mean we're likely to see a cool 6809 board from Spare Time >Gizmos sometime soon? Put me on the list for one! > > Maybe, but it sounds like Scott is going to do one too. I don't want to >steal his idea. If you want to, go ahead- mine's going to be something of a junkbox special (if it ever actually materializes in working condition- I've had exactly 1 ElecEng. course.) The Spare Time stuff, on the otherhand, is more than a bit nicer . . . From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Dec 3 18:24:42 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:24:42 GMT Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: In message <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a at jfcl.com> "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > I love fooling around with old microprocessors too, but one of my issues > is that I hate writing software for them. After I get all the hardware > built, I'm kind of stuck with the question "Now what???" Toggling in little > LED blinking programs and things like that gets old pretty fast. I have the same problem. I've got a nice little homebrew 8MHz 6502-based micro sitting next to me with an EPROM emulator hooked up. I've got EhBASIC running on it, now I'm stuck in a "Now what? Write a DOS?" situation. > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the > status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around > these days? What I would REALLY like is something similar to OS/9, but for the 6502. I've got a crateload of CPLDs here just begging to be used for something useful - splat a Xilinx XC9572XL and a 3V3 regulator on a board, then wire up a floppy controller IC (uPD765 'cos that's all I've got in my junkbox) and IDE hard drive interface on a single Eurocard. Could be good fun - and it would leave me one spare board for my Atari DVG clone. Asteroids on a homebrew board.. sounds like fun :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Smile, but sharpen your knives. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 3 18:31:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:31:18 +0000 Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <439238D6.9060707@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > What I would REALLY like is something similar to OS/9, but for the 6502. Whilst being commercial software, the nice thing about OS-9 seems to be that it's pretty well documented and a lot of the internal workings are detailed. You may find that writing a clone isn't *that* hard I suppose. cheers Jules From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 18:43:37 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:43:37 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512031531440502.0BB1CD73@10.0.0.252> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <200512022029480944.079C5B28@10.0.0.252> <439121BC.2080401@oldskool.org> <200512022101550130.07B9BEF2@10.0.0.252> <43914A35.2040801@oldskool.org> <200512031531440502.0BB1CD73@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031643m70bfef66m@mail.gmail.com> On 03/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/3/2005 at 1:33 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >Nope. CGA was jettisoned in Windows 3.1 although you could copy over the > >driver from 3.0 and get it working (but I don't recommend it... > > Grazingly OT: Is there any formal Windows standard that requires a video > adapter to have a BIOS extension at C000:0? If one were present, say, at > E000:0--or completely absent, would XP still work with it? > > --Chuck > > > > > I would guess that there must be standard place for windows to ask "What sort of device are you" for plug and play. The rest would up to the driver. I quite often find windows can at least identify the type of device wether or not it actually works. Dan From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 3 13:47:01 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 19:47:01 +0000 Subject: The Art of Electronics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051204004415.HRUG2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On 12/3/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > I bought both editions and both lab manuals, and never regretted any of > > them. The lab manuals have a fair amount of practical advice in them, and > > cover some stuff not in the main book (the second edtion has you making a > > simple 680008-based computer at the end :-)). > > I have that student guide... Cost me $20 NZ at a used bookstore on the > Cuba St. Mall in Wellington last Xmas. Very happy to have found it. > > -ethan AofE is awesome, what's the ISBN # for the AofE student lab book? What other books to recommand to add to my tiny shelf of great books? I need more books to help me to handle and understand stuff better. Old schools, and new stuff. Cheers, Wizard From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 3 18:52:27 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:52:27 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: <20051202200635.758d5a89.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640512031652r396bb75j@mail.gmail.com> On 03/12/05, Tony Duell wrote: > The hamster wheel I mentioned didn't just use the USB connector as a 5V > power supply, on the grounds there was a CD-ROM of driver software with > it (you know, I can remember when a device driver and its source code > would fit on one floppy disk. Darn code-bloat!). > I have a mobile that has a USB charger, but it will not charge unless the driver is installed. I don't know if the specs of USB mean it doesn't put voltage on a line unless it's told to. I keep meaning to try it on a powered hub. But I don't have one. With the driver cd, most new machines don't come with floppy drives. Also I would guess it's now cheaper to buy cd's in bulk then floppies. Dan From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 3 14:57:34 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:57:34 +0000 Subject: CUBIX 6809 software - was: first system/6809/OS9 Message-ID: <20051204010346.ICSX9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> I know Allison has mentioned this, but I'd like to provide a bit more detail: In the mid 80's I designed a little 6809 based computer system, including the hardware and all software. The operating system is called CUBIX, and may be of interest to anyone who wants to build up small homebrew computer. Here is some information to consider: - The system is designed to give high functionality with minimal hardware - you can build a completely operational CUBIX system with a fairly small handful of parts. (I have built working CUBIX systems in a single afternoon). - CUBIX is designed to be very portable - it can handle pretty much any I/O devices and disk geometry, and you can even change to new devices or redefine the disk geometry "on the fly". The system is so portable, that many system ports can be done from nothing more than the ROM image (I provide a detailed porting document). - CUBIX itself occupies the better part of an 8K ROM, and provides a nice file system, a command line "shell" (including a good selection of build in commands and "script/batch" files), and over 100 system calls/services. - There are a couple dozen applications and utilities, which include - All the standard file and system maintenance utilities - Several editors, including a fairly decent one which operates line- by line or full-screen visual. (The system includes a TTY specification subsystem which allows you to taylor the screen oriented programs to pretty much any terminal.) - HELP : A vax/vms like help command, which provides interactive documentation to all commands, applications and utlities. - ASM : 6809 assembler, and RAID : a fairly powerful 6809 debugger. - BASIC - FORTH : A very fast FORTH which compiles to directly executable 6809 machine code instead of threaded lists. - MAPL : A little APL system. - SIM80 : An 8080 simulator - allowed me to run most of the code I had written for my Altair on CUBIX (I included on the disk as examples, an 8080 BASIC interpreter, and an 8080 CHESS program) - Lots more... - The system is quite mature/stable - I used it as my main computer for several years, and there has been a small base of other users. (At one time I sold the software as a commercial product). - The system is very well documented. The main documents are: - CUBIX system users guide - CUBIX system programming manual - CUBIX porting guide - Separate documents for all of the major applications. - The distribution "documents" diskette, as a 360k 5.25" disk which contains nothing but documentation, and it is completely full - not a single free sector. - All source code, documentation and bnaries are now freely available. - I have provided schematics for a simple CUBIX system using a serial console, and matching sample drivers. - I have done a PC based simulator for my original D6809 portable computer, which allows you to try the system out by running it (full functionality) on your PC. I also have a command to import/export individual files to/from the simuilator disk images, and you can use my ImageDisk program to transfer disk images back and forth between the simulator image files and physical CUBIX compatible diskettes. - Since I've recently gotten "going" on this system again, I am thinking about writing a CUBIX compatible library for my 6809 C compiler and port it over to CUBIX so that the system will have a resident 'C' development system. If there is interest, I would definately do this. Although it would be considered a "toy system" by modern 32/64 bit standards, a CUBIX system gives you a pretty powerful computer with minimal hardware, and can be a very rewarding small project (as a number of people have told me over the years). It also gives you a very unique system that you won't experience anywhere else. One thing that I have put together for Allison who is building up one of these systems is my "Ultimate 6809 ROM" - I would be happy to make the content available to anyone else who wants to build a system. This is a 27C256 (32K) rom which maps into the 8K CUBIX system address space using two switches to set the 8K bank which will "come up" when the system is reset: Bank 0 contains the CUBIX OS - this would be selected for the normal operatinal mode of the system. Bank 1 contains HDM09 - my Hardware Debug Monitor - this is a very simple monitor which does not require ANY RAM to operate - You can use it to "poke around" the system if only the ROM and console UART are operating (and you can use it's polling accesses to debug the console, so all you really need is the ROM). Since there is lots of extra space in this bank, I have also provided stand-alone/ROM versions of BASIC and FORTH which can be launched from the monitor - these are very handy if you need to write a little program to test your hardware (But they DO require operational RAM :-) Bank 2 contains MON09 - this is my full-featured 6809 debugger, which has full dump/edit memory/registers, disassembly, breakpoints, single-step, NMI "break" of executing programs, and lots of other goodies. It can also download Intel or Motorola format download files so that you can load executable images into the system from a serial device and run them. For the "Ultimate ROM", I have expanded MON09 to include the engine from my SIM80 8080 simulator - this version of the monitor has additional commands to dump/edit the 8080 registers, and to execute/step 8080 code (all the other commands are common) - For those of you who are more familier with 8080/Z80, this lets you test out the system using 8080 binaries - even though it's a 6809 processor! Bank 3 contains a stand-alone/ROM version of the Micro-APL system (I had to put SOMETHING in the last bank!) - Thsi can be handy if you want to write fairly complex test prgorams. I invite/encourage anyone who wants to experiencing building a small/useful computer "from the ground up" to check out the CUBIX system - Most of the material mentioned above can be found on my web site (See URL in sig) - go the the "Dunfield 6809" computer under "Homebuilts". Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Dec 3 19:20:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:20:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: from Philip Pemberton at "Dec 4, 5 00:24:42 am" Message-ID: <200512040120.RAA12490@floodgap.com> > I have the same problem. I've got a nice little homebrew 8MHz 6502-based > micro sitting next to me with an EPROM emulator hooked up. I've got EhBASIC > running on it, now I'm stuck in a "Now what? Write a DOS?" situation. EhBASIC? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Know what I hate most? Rhetorical questions. -- Henry N. Camp ------------- From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 3 19:28:29 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 20:28:29 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software References: Message-ID: <00ea01c5f872$08d898e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > >> Who'da guessed that DEC (somewhere, somehow) is still making chips? > > ^-- Took me forever to realize that was a joke ... There's a big beautiful DEC PCI bus chip in the G3 tower IIRC. Really prominently placed. John A. From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 3 20:07:21 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:07:21 -0800 Subject: CUBIX 6809 software - was: first system/6809/OS9 In-Reply-To: <20051204010346.ICSX9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <1h70a39.1vkqmcb1ifwkw6M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I am thinking about writing a CUBIX compatible library for my 6809 C > compiler and port it over to CUBIX so that the system will have a resident > 'C' development system. If there is interest, I would definately do this. You have a 6809 C compiler? For sale? I'd like to hear more about that. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From micheladam at theedge.ca Sat Dec 3 20:44:44 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:44:44 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <374a57b442d4.4391f5ac@theedge.ca> Will go for the Objectvision. CC'd to the list as your email address is/was unreacheable from my ISP's server. Thanks Please send me reply directly to micheladam at theedge dot ca ----- Original Message ----- From: M H Stein Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:05 am Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > I just happen to have a sealed NIB ObjectVision 2.1 on a shelf > beside me, > although it may be spoken for (and you might have trouble getting > the $10 > rebate :); as to the rest, no idea at this time but not likely. > > It'll take me a while to dig through this stuff, so please send me > a note off- > list and I'll let you know when I have a list of what there is, > condition, and > what it's worth, if anything. > > TIA, > > mike (in Toronto) > > ------------------Original Message-------------- > > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 19:09:16 -0700 > From: micheladam at theedge.ca > Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > Hi. > > Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like > ObjectProfesionnal? > Also, Microsoft TCP/IP SDK for DOS ? > > Borland ObjectVision 2.1 ? > > Faircom CTREE ? > > Thanks > > Michel Adam > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: M H Stein > Date: Friday, December 2, 2005 2:07 am > Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > > > Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > > external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 3 16:40:07 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 22:40:07 +0000 Subject: CUBIX 6809 software - was: first system/6809/OS9 In-Reply-To: <1h70a39.1vkqmcb1ifwkw6M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <20051204010346.ICSX9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051204024619.LMBH9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > I am thinking about writing a CUBIX compatible library for my 6809 C > > compiler and port it over to CUBIX so that the system will have a resident > > 'C' development system. If there is interest, I would definately do this. > > You have a 6809 C compiler? For sale? I'd like to hear more about that. www.dunfield.com -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From micheladam at theedge.ca Sat Dec 3 20:58:02 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:58:02 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <3766a0e12981.4391f8ca@theedge.ca> Thirded! Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Leonard Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 1:01 pm Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > Gene Buckle wrote: > > > >> Seconded, I have been looking for Object Professional for a decade! > > > > Which version? > > Preferably the most recent one :-) but I'll take anything. I've > wanted to go > through Kim's code for a while to see how he solved certain > problems. Object > Professional is the only thing that is NOT available for download > on the > sourceforge site; no idea why... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From micheladam at theedge.ca Sat Dec 3 21:10:26 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 20:10:26 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <3789707151c9.4391fbb2@theedge.ca> Mike, further to this, my ISP is black listed on spamcop, so please respond to michel at ssimicro dot com Thanks Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: micheladam at theedge.ca Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > Will go for the Objectvision. CC'd to the list as your email address > is/was unreacheable from my ISP's server. > > Thanks > > Please send me reply directly to micheladam at theedge dot ca > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: M H Stein > Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 3:05 am > Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > > I just happen to have a sealed NIB ObjectVision 2.1 on a shelf > > beside me, > > although it may be spoken for (and you might have trouble > getting > > the $10 > > rebate :); as to the rest, no idea at this time but not likely. > > > > It'll take me a while to dig through this stuff, so please send > me > > a note off- > > list and I'll let you know when I have a list of what there is, > > condition, and > > what it's worth, if anything. > > > > TIA, > > > > mike (in Toronto) > > > > ------------------Original Message-------------- > > > > Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 19:09:16 -0700 > > From: micheladam at theedge.ca > > Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > > > Hi. > > > > Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like > > ObjectProfesionnal? > > Also, Microsoft TCP/IP SDK for DOS ? > > > > Borland ObjectVision 2.1 ? > > > > Faircom CTREE ? > > > > Thanks > > > > Michel Adam > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: M H Stein > > Date: Friday, December 2, 2005 2:07 am > > Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > > > > I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > > > software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > > > > > Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > > > external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > > > > > > > From brushman at esper.com Sat Dec 3 22:37:36 2005 From: brushman at esper.com (Jimmy D) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 23:37:36 -0500 Subject: HP plotter Message-ID: <000801c5f88c$751a60a0$3de19c44@esper.com> I have an old HP 7596A that I still use for my work. There are a few things that I'm curious as to whether they can be changed, but I'll ask one question at a time. The plot limit on this model (E size?) is 36 inches wide x 48 inches long. I'm interested in doing a longer plot, say 5 or 6 feet. I have some manuals I bought on a CD, I've been snooping around on them. The hard clip is the physical limits of the plotter, the soft clip is the software limits of the plot. In the pocket guide, there is a place where it says: PS, page size Use: Changes the size of the hard clip limits Syntax: PS length(,width); or PS; Could I hire a computer expert to change the length setting? Or even do it myself? Maybe a long shot, considering computers are not the subject I've spent much of the last 20 years studying. Any technical answers should be s-l-o-w-e-d down from your usual warp speed to biplane or maybe hang glider :) Thanks for any help. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 3 23:02:38 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 23:02:38 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: ... > Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what > video chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to > download. (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then > type "d c000:0000" enter then enter again.) OK, I'll bite: C:\Documents and Settings\Owner>debug -d c000:0000 C000:0000 55 AA 7A EB 4B 37 34 30-30 E9 4C 19 77 CC 56 49 U.z.K7400.L.w.VI C000:0010 44 45 4F 20 0D 00 00 00-84 02 9B 0E 00 00 49 42 DEO ..........IB C000:0020 4D 20 56 47 41 20 43 6F-6D 70 61 74 69 62 6C 65 M VGA Compatible C000:0030 01 00 00 00 B0 10 B2 EF-30 38 2F 30 37 2F 30 33 ........08/07/03 C000:0040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ C000:0050 E9 E7 E4 00 B0 10 21 04-03 D0 30 7E 3C 21 C0 80 ......!...0~ References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43927D6F.5040006@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > ... > >> Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what >> video chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to >> download. (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then >> type "d c000:0000" enter then enter again.) > > > OK, I'll bite: > > C:\Documents and Settings\Owner>debug > -d c000:0000 > C000:0000 55 AA 7A EB 4B 37 34 30-30 E9 4C 19 77 CC 56 49 > U.z.K7400.L.w.VI > C000:0010 44 45 4F 20 0D 00 00 00-84 02 9B 0E 00 00 49 42 DEO > ..........IB > C000:0020 4D 20 56 47 41 20 43 6F-6D 70 61 74 69 62 6C 65 M VGA > Compatible > C000:0030 01 00 00 00 B0 10 B2 EF-30 38 2F 30 37 2F 30 33 > ........08/07/03 > C000:0040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > C000:0050 E9 E7 E4 00 B0 10 21 04-03 D0 30 7E 3C 21 C0 80 > ......!...0~ C000:0060 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 80-22 00 A5 8B E9 D0 0D E9 > ........"....... > C000:0070 D7 0D 50 4D 49 44 6C 00-6F 00 00 00 00 A0 00 B0 > ..PMIDl.o....... > - > - > > You are a genius if, from that, you can tell what card I have. (answer > below if you scroll down far enough) It has been mentioned that different companies put the info in slightly different places. Look at the next couple hundred bytes of output. Pecae... Sridhar From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Dec 4 00:26:03 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:26:03 +0100 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4391F265.4010106@deltasoft.com> References: <2bddf5c934d4.43909bdc@theedge.ca> <439119DC.7070303@oldskool.org> <4391F265.4010106@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <43928BFB.8010605@FARUMDATA.DK> Gene Buckle wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: >> >>> Would you happen to have Turbopower Software stuff? Like >>> ObjectProfesionnal? >> >> Seconded, I have been looking for Object Professional for a decade! > > > Which version? I have an ASYNC version 1.01 Nico From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Fri Dec 2 08:48:49 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 09:48:49 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512020449.XAA05758@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200512020449.XAA05758@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43905ED1.2050600@autonoma.edu.co> der Mouse wrote: >>>So what does real unix use for a GUI? >> >>X Windows with only three programs: xload, xclock and xterm. 8-P > What? No window manager? > > Actually, while we differ on the details (I prefer my own clock and > terminal emulator, for example), I tend to agree with you: GUIs are > mostly for providing multiple shell windows. (About 90% of my screen > area is covered with terminal emulator windows, -snip- Yes, I use CDE the same way :-) . But I got used to multiple shell windows (not simultaneously on the screen, but being able to switch between them) using NCSA Telnet. Of course, on the server side there were also some other programs to do this for users with a plain terminal (not a pc). Carlos. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 2 20:41:31 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <20051203024131.11603.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> where you at? --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > >I'm getting rid of several large boxes of old MS-DOS & WIN > >software, OSs, apps, languages, utilities, games, etc. > > > >Also boxes of hardware such as PC MoBos, cards, keyboards, > >external print buffers, converters, <=9600bd modems etc. > > > >I realize without a detailed list this is rather vague, but I'd like > >to know if there's any interest in this sort of stuff to make it > >worth while actually making that list. > > > > > > > Do you have any PCB layout and schematic capture programs? > > >If not here, maybe someone knows of another list where someone > >may be interested? > > > >TIA, > > > >mike > > > > > > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From aserlanger at earthlink.net Thu Dec 1 07:23:25 2005 From: aserlanger at earthlink.net (Andy Erlanger) Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: A heads-up: updated holiday vintage computer buyers guide In-Reply-To: <438E349F.9090005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0IQT00F8ZMJ358D2@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Sadly, you can't believe much of what you see on that site... -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A heads-up: updated holiday vintage computer buyers guide Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I like the Semi Virtual Diskette.... its very similar to the SIO2PC > cable Atari users have been using for about 10 years now. Although > the SIO2PC allows you to also take control of a PC's serial modem and > parallel ports as well as its floppy, hard disk and networked drives. I don't like it. I like stand alone products, rather than a PC. The 8008's I still like because the components are few and easy to home brew. IMSAI is still busy on the S100 front. http://www.imsai.net/ From jimgeneva at earthlink.net Fri Dec 2 03:38:10 2005 From: jimgeneva at earthlink.net (James C. Geneva) Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 02:38:10 -0700 Subject: HP Srm Message-ID: <000a01c5f724$1cfb1ef0$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> Hello All: Can anyone off help on A HP 9000 50960A SRM System? Jim From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Dec 4 01:03:15 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:03:15 GMT Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: <200512040120.RAA12490@floodgap.com> References: <200512040120.RAA12490@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0080dbd34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200512040120.RAA12490 at floodgap.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have the same problem. I've got a nice little homebrew 8MHz 6502-based > > micro sitting next to me with an EPROM emulator hooked up. I've got EhBASIC > > running on it, now I'm stuck in a "Now what? Write a DOS?" situation. > > EhBASIC? > Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... 1st we shoot all the lawyers, 2nd we strangle them, 3rd.. From news at computercollector.com Sun Dec 4 01:03:27 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 02:03:27 -0500 Subject: need drivers for old graphics card In-Reply-To: <20051130152354.79518.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006301c5f8a0$d3b3a9f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Did you check driverguide.com? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:24 AM To: talk Subject: need drivers for old graphics card made by Vermont Microsystems. Takes up 2 card slots, like an IBM PGA card. Has on onboard 80188. Is VM still around? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 4 01:51:46 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 01:51:46 -0600 Subject: pirating (was: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: ... > When you're 16 and broke (I had to go to a friend's house to use a 1200 > baud modem when his Dad was out of the house -- "5 miles, uphill, both > ways!"), you pirate. Jim, You misspelled a few of words there: "you're" --> "I was" "you pirate" --> "I pirated" It is an easy mistake to make because spell checkers won't catch it. Something that was undoubtedly true got needlessly turned into a provably false statement. What did I do when I was 16, broken, and smitten with computers? I had a spiral bound notebook where I wrote out BASIC programs, then rewrote them, and rewrote them. Probably 1/3 of what I wrote ever got typed into a computer, partly because the "computer lab" was available to me for about 45 minutes of "face time" with the computer per week. I wish I still had those notebooks to see what I was up to back then (1978-1980). From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sun Dec 4 02:08:26 2005 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 03:08:26 -0500 Subject: Original Dr. Dobbs Issues Message-ID: <4392A3FA.9AB571AE@buckeye-express.com> > Are there any online archive(s) of the > original Dr. Dobbs journals? The first twelve years of DDJ (1976-1987) were reprinted in bound volumes. From 1988 on, DDJ has published back issues on CD-ROM. Unless someone has scanned and maybe OCR'd some articles, as I have with some 6502 and Apple II items, then no. I do have a spare volume 1 if you need it. If I can get volumes 9-12 then I can get rid of the individual issues from 1984-1987. My Simtel CD-ROM has DDJ source code from 1986 through early 1994. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From technobug at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 02:40:08 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 01:40:08 -0700 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512040723.jB47NL19051197@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512040723.jB47NL19051197@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:52:27 +0000, Dan Williams wrote: > I have a mobile that has a USB charger, but it will not charge unless > the driver is installed. I don't know if the specs of USB mean it > doesn't put voltage on a line unless it's told to. A USB device is initially required to pull no more than one load (100 ma) from the power bus. On initialization, the USB host queries the device to obtain the number of loads it requires (up to 5 - 500 ma) and determines whether it can provide that amount of power to the device. For devices requiring more than one load, the device is not allowed to pull more than the initial load until configured by software. > I keep meaning to > try it on a powered hub. But I don't have one. From the spec: "Hubs that obtain operating power externally (from the USB) must supply five unit loads to each port. Battery powered hubs may supply either one or five unit loads per port." So this should work independent of host initialization (if the hub follows the rules). If the device is a standard device as defined by the specs, the host should initialize power independent of a driver. However, if you are on a M$ box, they don't always follow the rules even though they are a signatory on the spec... CRC From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 4 04:10:38 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:10:38 +0100 Subject: EPROM Substitution Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2232@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Ah yes, now I remember ... indeed it was even 3 power supply voltages, like the old 4116 DRAMs. Thanks Tony, a few failing memory bits are corrected :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: za 03-12-2005 22:46 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: EPROM Substitution > > I vaguely remember that all 2532 and 2732 EPROMs were compatible *except* t= > he TI one. > (or was it an other manufacturer?) > >From that one manufacturer the 2532 used a *second* power supply ... was it= > -5V? You're thinking of the 2K byte (16K bit) EPROMs. Everybody but TI made a 2716 that was single-rail (+5V supply only). TI's 2716 was a 3-rail part (+5V, +12V, -5V), the TI 2516 was single-rail part and much the same as everyone else's 2716. -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 4 06:33:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:33:42 -0000 (GMT) Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <011901c5f7d0$a882cd90$0500fea9@game> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <011901c5f7d0$a882cd90$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1988.192.168.0.2.1133699622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 3, 2005 6:13 am, Teo Zenios said: > > > Looking at http://www.amiga-hardware.com the Phase 5: Cyberstorm Mk-III > has > a 68 pin SCSI connector. The manual is found here: > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/cyberstormmkiii.lha Yep, that's the site that told me what the 2 cards were so I downloaded everything in sight. Tonight's task is to see which drive is the boot drive and have a go at installing OS 3.5 which should be interesting as I've never installed AmigaOS from CD before. Maybe I'll take some OS3 floppies too just in case. > can make sure it is running 100% and I have all the files needed to redo > it > again from scratch if needed. Before rebuilding I also take the system > apart and clean everything (also look for leaking batteries). No worries on that score, the previous owner removed the battery before he put the machine in storage. > to 030 processors. My A1200 has an 030/50 and my A2000 has a 030/40. The > only machine that has a network card is the a1200 since it can use most 16 > bit PCMCIA cards that are easy to get. I've sort of half-heartedly been looking for a Squirrel SCSI card for my A1200 but I only ever see them on epay and they always go for more than I'm willing to pay. As for network, I've got an old laptop with a 3com PCMCIA card in....could I use that? > What plans do you have for that machine? Play and learn and get it on the web if possible, as well as see what that fat graphics card is capable of..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Dec 4 09:41:52 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 09:41:52 Subject: HP Srm In-Reply-To: <000a01c5f724$1cfb1ef0$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051204094152.339fbe42@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I can tell you what it is and I've seen the interface cards but I've never used it and never seen the sever end of one. Joe At 02:38 AM 12/2/05 -0700, you wrote: >Hello All: >Can anyone off help on A HP 9000 50960A SRM System? > > >Jim > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 10:41:11 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:41:11 -0600 Subject: Original Dr. Dobbs Issues In-Reply-To: <4392A3FA.9AB571AE@buckeye-express.com> References: <4392A3FA.9AB571AE@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <43931C27.8080202@oldskool.org> Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > My Simtel CD-ROM has DDJ source code > from 1986 through early 1994. What directory? I have 4 SIMTEL CDROMs and I did a quick search on "ddj" and didn't find anything other than the year 1993. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong dir...? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 10:45:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:45:55 -0600 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <1988.192.168.0.2.1133699622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1232.192.168.0.2.1133570080.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <011901c5f7d0$a882cd90$0500fea9@game> <1988.192.168.0.2.1133699622.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <43931D43.6010605@oldskool.org> Witchy wrote: >>http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/cyberstormmkiii.lha > > Yep, that's the site that told me what the 2 cards were so I downloaded Watch out with the Cyberstorm -- if you have a Rev D A4000 motherboard (the last ever made) they remove a crystal that the Cyberstorm needs to operate. Slightly more details in this older usenet posting: "My MkII was 040/40, and required "internal clocking". The internal clock signal is taken from U104 (50 MHz crystal). It was not installed in my A4000cr revD (it used the "external clock" on the A3640), so when I replaced the A3640 with the CS MkII, the computer refused to work. I just got a blank grey screen." I asked this person if he ever found out how to fix it. His reply: "Soldering the crystal into U104 solved the problem." I wasn't willing to do that so for my own purposes I procured a rev B. A4000 mobo. So now I have two :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 11:18:07 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:18:07 -0600 Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: <439238D6.9060707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <007d01c5f8f6$b2826360$0200a8c0@Gils6240> What language is it written in? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 6:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > What I would REALLY like is something similar to OS/9, but > for the 6502. > > Whilst being commercial software, the nice thing about OS-9 > seems to be that it's pretty well documented and a lot of the > internal workings are detailed. > You may find that writing a clone isn't *that* hard I suppose. > > cheers > > Jules > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 11:48:30 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:48:30 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> According to Peter Norton, the BIOS code in a PC scans memory starting at C000 and looking at every 2K block for the signature 0x55AA. (I am paraphrasing.) This marks a ROM extension, probably in a software cartridge or on a controller. What follows is supposedly a 1 byte length and a 3 byte jump instruction. The BIOS initialization will then branch to this code and execute it. The code can do anything, even take control of the system as is done with some software cartridges. This ROM block can be at any even 2K address. The IBM EGA adapter went at C000, so graphics cards tend to end up there. Comments in this block might be really informative or might simply try to look very much like some IBM module so as to facilitate interoperability. HTH, Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Battle > Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 11:03 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > Jim Leonard wrote: > ... > > Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to > determine what > > video chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated > drivers to > > download. (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type > debug then > > type "d c000:0000" enter then enter again.) > > OK, I'll bite: > > C:\Documents and Settings\Owner>debug > -d c000:0000 > C000:0000 55 AA 7A EB 4B 37 34 30-30 E9 4C 19 77 CC 56 49 > U.z.K7400.L.w.VI > C000:0010 44 45 4F 20 0D 00 00 00-84 02 9B 0E 00 00 49 42 > DEO ..........IB > C000:0020 4D 20 56 47 41 20 43 6F-6D 70 61 74 69 62 6C 65 > M VGA Compatible > C000:0030 01 00 00 00 B0 10 B2 EF-30 38 2F 30 37 2F 30 33 > ........08/07/03 > C000:0040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > C000:0050 E9 E7 E4 00 B0 10 21 04-03 D0 30 7E 3C 21 C0 80 > ......!...0~ C000:0060 00 00 00 00 10 00 00 80-22 00 A5 8B E9 D0 0D E9 > ........"....... > C000:0070 D7 0D 50 4D 49 44 6C 00-6F 00 00 00 00 A0 00 B0 > ..PMIDl.o....... > - > - > > You are a genius if, from that, you can tell what card I > have. (answer below if you scroll down far enough) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nvidia Gforce FX5200 > > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 12:01:42 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:01:42 -0600 Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: > You misspelled a few of words there: > > "you're" --> "I was" > "you pirate" --> "I pirated" > > It is an easy mistake to make because spell checkers won't catch it. > Something that was undoubtedly true got needlessly turned into a > provably false statement. I was speaking figuratively. There is nothing wrong with the statement "When you're broke, you pirate." -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 12:02:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:02:23 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051130142730.93157.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051130142730.93157.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for the advice. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 12:01:58 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:01:58 -0600 Subject: The Art of Electronics In-Reply-To: <20051204004415.HRUG2981.tomts43-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <008501c5f8fc$d24c4cf0$0200a8c0@Gils6240> I Googled for The Art of Electronics & got hits for it & the lab manual on Amazon. Gil ... > AofE is awesome, what's the ISBN # for the AofE student lab book? > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 12:07:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:07:13 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43933051.6050702@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: > You are a genius if, from that, you can tell what card I have. (answer You didn't display the second bit; hit "d enter" again. It's much more descriptive one more bit down: -d C000:0080 0D 0A 52 33 30 30 20 49-6E 66 69 6E 65 6F 6E 20 ..R300 Infineon C000:0090 39 35 30 30 20 50 72 6F-20 42 49 4F 53 20 2D 20 9500 Pro BIOS - C000:00A0 50 2F 4E 20 31 31 33 2D-41 30 35 36 30 32 2D 31 P/N 113-A05602-1 C000:00B0 30 31 0D 0A 00 28 43 29-20 31 39 38 38 2D 32 30 01...(C) 1988-20 C000:00C0 30 32 2C 20 41 54 49 20-54 65 63 68 6E 6F 6C 6F 02, ATI Technolo C000:00D0 67 69 65 73 20 49 6E 63-2E 20 42 4B 2D 41 54 49 gies Inc. BK-ATI C000:00E0 20 56 45 52 30 30 38 2E-30 30 34 2E 30 30 38 2E VER008.004.008. C000:00F0 30 30 32 00 20 6E 65 62-66 31 33 30 38 2E 38 34 002. nebf1308.84 From this you can clearly tell I have a 9500 Pro. What does yours say from c000:0080 to :00f0? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 4 12:14:30 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 10:14:30 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> References: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> Message-ID: <200512041014300541.0FB5BD79@10.0.0.252> On 12/4/2005 at 11:48 AM Gil Carrick wrote: >According to Peter Norton, the BIOS code in a PC scans memory starting at >C000 and looking at every 2K block for the signature 0x55AA. ( Having written some of my own BIOS extension code, this comes as no surprise. But I was speculating about the likelihood of a "custom" becoming a de facto standard. In other words, it seems that all VGA/EGA adapters put BIOS code at C000:0, but are the authors of any OS or PC BIOS sufficiently benighted to insist that it always must be at that location? Cheers, Chuck From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sun Dec 4 12:33:08 2005 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:33:08 -0500 Subject: Original Dr. Dobbs Issues References: <4392A3FA.9AB571AE@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <43933664.ECD78938@buckeye-express.com> I have the Walnut Creek Simtel 2-disk set dated September 1994. On disk 2 is a directry called DDJMAG, and in it are the DDJ source code files, zipped, totaling 19MB. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 4 12:42:38 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 18:42:38 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512031652r396bb75j@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051202200635.758d5a89.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26c11a640512031652r396bb75j@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4393389E.6010803@gjcp.net> Dan Williams wrote: > On 03/12/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>The hamster wheel I mentioned didn't just use the USB connector as a 5V >>power supply, on the grounds there was a CD-ROM of driver software with >>it (you know, I can remember when a device driver and its source code >>would fit on one floppy disk. Darn code-bloat!). >> > > I have a mobile that has a USB charger, but it will not charge unless > the driver is installed. I don't know if the specs of USB mean it > doesn't put voltage on a line unless it's told to. I keep meaning to > try it on a powered hub. But I don't have one. That seems to be the case. If you have an iPod it won't charge from USB if it's connected to a Windows machine without the drive mounted (or whatever the Windows equivalent is) because it will turn the port off. On Macs and PCs running Unixy OSes, it works just fine. Gordon. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 4 12:51:57 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 4, 5 12:02:23 pm" Message-ID: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> > > interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. > > Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for the advice. I think you'll enjoy it. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 4 13:03:28 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:03:28 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43933051.6050702@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <4392786E.3050101@pacbell.net> <43933051.6050702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43933D80.70205@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >> You are a genius if, from that, you can tell what card I have. (answer > > > You didn't display the second bit; hit "d enter" again. It's much more > descriptive one more bit down: I followed your original instructions verbatim: > (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type > "d c000:0000" enter then enter again.) The second enter did nothing, so there was nothing to paste. I see above you've corrected it to be hit "d enter" again. That does show more data. If I go far enough I do see a string with nvidia in it. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 4 13:11:49 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:11:49 -0600 Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >> You misspelled a few of words there: >> >> "you're" --> "I was" >> "you pirate" --> "I pirated" >> >> It is an easy mistake to make because spell checkers won't catch it. >> Something that was undoubtedly true got needlessly turned into a >> provably false statement. > > > I was speaking figuratively. Huh? If I call my coworker a moron and then say I as speaking "figuratively", it doesn't change the fact that I called him a moron. > There is nothing wrong with the statement > "When you're broke, you pirate." There is nothing wrong with it except that it is a blanket statement and isn't true. Most people, when broke, do without. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 4 13:36:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 14:36:53 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. > > > > Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for > > the advice. > > I think you'll enjoy it. :) > I'm now enjoying the SE that I picked up yesterday. I have a CD burner installed on it and am figuring out just what software will run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of the things suitable for the machine and burning to CD. It came with OS 7.1 installed on it, and I've preserved that. I 'upgraded' to an Apple 250M hard drive, as I could see the 20 megger being completely filled up almost immediately (it already was, as received). It's really nice that you can just format and copy over entire drives on the Mac. I plugged in an external SCSI drive and 'copied over' the entire 20 Meg original drive, then replaced the internal drive with an Apple 250, then booted from the external drive and copied it's contents over to the new internal drive. I'm right now in the process of installing a PDP-8 Simulator on it from a shareware CD I got years ago. > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no > difference. -------- From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 4 13:39:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 14:39:44 -0500 Subject: pirating (was: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20051204143944.2529a4ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 01:51:46 -0600 Jim Battle wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > ... > > When you're 16 and broke (I had to go to a friend's house to > > use a 1200 baud modem when his Dad was out of the house -- "5 > > miles, uphill, both ways!"), you pirate. > > Jim, > > You misspelled a few of words there: > > "you're" --> "I was" > "you pirate" --> "I pirated" > > It is an easy mistake to make because spell checkers won't catch > it. Something that was undoubtedly true got needlessly turned > into a provably false statement. > > What did I do when I was 16, broken, and smitten with computers? > I had a spiral > bound notebook where I wrote out BASIC programs, then rewrote > them, and rewrote them. Probably 1/3 of what I wrote ever got > typed into a computer, partly because the "computer lab" was > available to me for about 45 minutes of "face time" with the > computer per week. I wish I still had those notebooks to see > what I was up to back then (1978-1980). > I coped by buying a Programmable Calculator. It was hopeless that I would ever be able to afford a real computer (circia. 1977). And I couldn't afford an HP. I got a Texas Instruments SR-56 (couldn't even afford an SR-52). Any program you entered into it disappeared when you turned it off. But it met my needs for awhile. > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Dec 4 13:54:03 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:54:03 -0600 Subject: pirating (was: "Market" for old macs?) In-Reply-To: <20051204143944.2529a4ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008a01c5f90c$7d883750$0200a8c0@Gils6240> ... > When you're 16 and broke (I had to go to a friend's house > to use a 1200 baud modem when his Dad was out of the house -- "5 miles, > uphill, both ways!"), you pirate. ... When I was 16 & broke I went over to Rice University at 2 in the morning and used the IBM 1620. At the time it was the closest thing to a "Personal Computer", but you had to sign up for 15 minute blocks of time. ;) Gil From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun Dec 4 14:24:18 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for an old PowerPC mac laptop? Message-ID: <20051204202418.95528.qmail@web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Looking for an old PowerPC based Mac laptop, anything really with a colour screen - eg around the 100MHz mark. Wanted for a conversion project. Based in the Bay Area. Thanks Ian. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 4 14:31:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:31:28 -0700 Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: <007d01c5f8f6$b2826360$0200a8c0@Gils6240> References: <007d01c5f8f6$b2826360$0200a8c0@Gils6240> Message-ID: <43935220.4000903@jetnet.ab.ca> Gil Carrick wrote: >What language is it written in > > 6809 assembler! From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 14:42:10 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:42:10 -0600 Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <439354A2.5090906@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: >> There is nothing wrong with the statement "When you're broke, you >> pirate." > > There is nothing wrong with it except that it is a blanket statement and > isn't true. Most people, when broke, do without. If that's what you wanted to write, you should have written that instead of attempting to pass it off as a grammar correction. I don't disagree with you; most people go without. But I was (and still am, to a degree) somewhat obsessive, so sitting idle drove crazy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 14:44:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:44:23 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> References: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43935527.9040803@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. >> >>Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for the advice. > > I think you'll enjoy it. :) The fact that it has a superdrive and can boot disks I make on my WinXP machine was a big factor :-) I lied when I said I didn't have a mac -- I have two Mac 512s. But I wouldn't have the first clue on how to use them to create a system disk to boot the SE/30. (I seem to remember formatting a diskette and then copying over the SYSTEM folder, but the SYSTEM folder on the hard drive is too big for a floppy...) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 14:45:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:45:32 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4393556C.4090707@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? Serial? If serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use AppleTalk? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 14:47:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:47:19 -0600 Subject: Original Dr. Dobbs Issues In-Reply-To: <43933664.ECD78938@buckeye-express.com> References: <4392A3FA.9AB571AE@buckeye-express.com> <43933664.ECD78938@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <439355D7.4040002@oldskool.org> Paul R. Santa-Maria wrote: > I have the Walnut Creek Simtel 2-disk set dated > September 1994. On disk 2 is a directry called > DDJMAG, and in it are the DDJ source code files, > zipped, totaling 19MB. Aha! You are correct sir, thank you! BTW, for anyone who wants these files and doesn't have the collection he mentions, go here: http://cd.textfiles.com/simtel/DISC2/DDJMAG/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Dec 4 14:49:03 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:49:03 GMT Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In message <43933F75.7090703 at pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > There is nothing wrong with it except that it is a blanket statement and isn't > true. Most people, when broke, do without. Or, in the case of books, borrow. If you're only after a few pages of information, it makes more sense to borrow a book from the local library and copy the stuff you need. If it's a decent book, I buy my own copy. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... (beep) Help, I've fallen and can't reach the beer. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 4 14:52:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 12:52:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393556C.4090707@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 4, 5 02:45:32 pm" Message-ID: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> > > run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of > > Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? Serial? If > serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use AppleTalk? DB*9*? on an SE/30? Are you sure it's an SE/30? The last Mac to have a DB9 port was the Mac Plus, and that was for the mouse (it used mini DIN-8 serial ports otherwise). The Mac 128 and 512 models had DB9 ports for serial too. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I put the fun in funeral. -------------------------------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 4 15:06:00 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 16:06:00 -0500 Subject: pirating References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> <439354A2.5090906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00e701c5f916$90cb5a90$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 3:42 PM Subject: Re: pirating > Jim Battle wrote: > >> There is nothing wrong with the statement "When you're broke, you > >> pirate." > > > > There is nothing wrong with it except that it is a blanket statement and > > isn't true. Most people, when broke, do without. > > If that's what you wanted to write, you should have written that instead of > attempting to pass it off as a grammar correction. > > I don't disagree with you; most people go without. But I was (and still am, to > a degree) somewhat obsessive, so sitting idle drove crazy. > -- Most people will not break into a music store to steal a copy of Van Halen 1984, quite a few people will download the same music in MP3 format from the internet. Pirating (digitally copying a copyrighted work) is not exactly the same as physically stealing the same item (I am not saying either is ok to do). From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 4 15:12:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC floppy doing Mac 800K; Was: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200511301503.jAUF3ID4092949@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051204130245.D18124@shell.lmi.net> > >> >I'd LOVE to hear from anybody who is successfully formatting and writing > >> >GCR with a PC (without adding in a "flux transition" based additional disk > >> >controller (such as Catweasel or COPYII Option Board) > >> >It is "impossible". (VERY difficult) On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, Jeff Walther wrote: > The Outbound Laptop Model 125 (ca. 1989 Mac laptop clone) uses a > Citizen brand PC type laptop floppy drive. It reads and writes 800K > Mac floppies as well as 1.4 MB floppies on both platforms. However, > it has a controller card on the end of the floppy drive. > The main components of the floppy controller card are an 85C30, > WD37C65, WD92C32 (confused as to why this is there, since the 37C65 > has a data separater built in), because it is BYPASSING the 765 for read and write of 400k/800k GCR. > an LS624 voltage controlled > oscillator, a Xicor X9103 digital potentiometer, a 27C256, and a > GAL16V8. There's a little bit of other standard 74 series logic on > board as well. . . . to add "flux transition" capabilities to the 765 > I find it interesting that back in 1989 someone had already found a > way to make a PC floppy work as a Mac floppy, though with a double > handful of chips. THE PROBLEM HAS NEVER BEEN THE DRIVE. The problem was, and is, the disk controller. I can do Apple][ with a Tandon TM100-2, I can do Mac with damn near ANY 3.5" drive. BUT ONLY WITH SIGNIFICANT MODS to the operation of the FDC. (Apple Turnover with my software, or Central Point CopyII DELUXE Option Board with their software, or Cat weasel, or adding a raw data in (DISK2FDI)) > I'm not quite sure what kind of interface the Outbound uses to the > floppy drive, though. Obviously, there's no SWIM chip in the > Outbound. So did the original designer (Doug Swartz?) cobble up a > SWIM from 74 series logic or does the controller on the floppy negate > the need for the SWIM? When you trace that out, then you will understand why an unmodified PC can not do Mac GCR. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 4 12:59:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:59:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PC floppy doing Mac 800K; Was: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Nov 30, 5 07:14:59 pm Message-ID: > >On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> The bigger problem isn't that it's GCR, but rather that it's also variable > >> rate GCR. I'd remove the quotes from "impossible" on this one, although, > >> maybe with a razor blade and a magnet and a VERY steady hand... > > > >How fast can you turn the MOTOR ON line on and off? :-) The real thing that changes between cylinders on the old Mac drives is the number of bits per revolution. To read/write this you can either : 1) Keep the bit rate from the contorller constant and vary the disk rotation speed (this is what the Mac did) 2) Keep the spindle speed constant and vary the data rate at the controller. THis, incidentally, is what Commodore did in the PET drives, etc. Of course if you do it this way you need a drive with a read filter that's sufficiently 'wide' not to mind the varying data rate. > > The Outbound Laptop Model 125 (ca. 1989 Mac laptop clone) uses a > Citizen brand PC type laptop floppy drive. It reads and writes 800K > Mac floppies as well as 1.4 MB floppies on both platforms. However, > it has a controller card on the end of the floppy drive. My guess is that the spindle speed is kept constant (300 rpm) and the data rate is fiddled about with. > > The main components of the floppy controller card are an 85C30, > WD37C65, WD92C32 (confused as to why this is there, since the 37C65 > has a data separater built in), an LS624 voltage controlled Probably bevause they needed to do some tricks that the internal data seperator coudln't handle (e.g. signals were entirely within the IC can couldn't be monitored or intercepted). > oscillator, a Xicor X9103 digital potentiometer, a 27C256, and a Well, VCO + digital pot == programmable frequency oscillator. Just what you need to fiddle around with the data rate :-) I wonder what the 85C30 is for? THat's a fancy serial chip, used in the Mac for the 2 serial ports. I wonder if it's used here, with a bit of extra logic, to handle the data from the floppy disk? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 4 13:00:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:00:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Srm In-Reply-To: <000a01c5f724$1cfb1ef0$0f00a8c0@dorisland.net> from "James C. Geneva" at Dec 2, 5 02:38:10 am Message-ID: > > Hello All: > Can anyone off help on A HP 9000 50960A SRM System? What do you have (boards, etc) and what do you want to know about it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 4 13:10:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP plotter In-Reply-To: <000801c5f88c$751a60a0$3de19c44@esper.com> from "Jimmy D" at Dec 3, 5 11:37:36 pm Message-ID: > > I have an old HP 7596A that I still use for my work. There are a few = > things that I'm curious as to whether they can be changed, but I'll ask = > one question at a time. > > The plot limit on this model (E size?) is 36 inches wide x 48 inches = > long. I'm interested in doing a longer plot, say 5 or 6 feet. I have = > some manuals I bought on a CD, I've been snooping around on them.=20 > > The hard clip is the physical limits of the plotter, the soft clip is = > the software limits of the plot. In the pocket guide, there is a place = > where it says: > PS, page size > Use: Changes the size of the hard clip limits > Syntax: PS length(,width); or PS; > > Could I hire a computer expert to change the length setting? Or even do = > it myself? Maybe a long shot, considering computers are not the subject = > I've spent much of the last 20 years studying. Any technical answers = > should be s-l-o-w-e-d down from your usual warp speed to biplane or = > maybe hang glider :) >From what you've said, it appears that the hard clip limits can be set in software -- that is that they can be set by the host computer, this is not something that's set by hardware in the plotter itself. Of course the plotter heardware will limit the hard clip limits, at least in one direction (if the carriage can only physically move, say, 36", you can't have a hard clip width bigger than that). It is not clear whether or not the plotter enforces a limit in the other (paper movement) direction. It may well do so, either for software reasons (coordinates are limited to a certain number of digits) or practical reasons (it can't guarantee accuracy if it moves the paper back and forth too far, there could be slip between the rollers and the paper, for example). PS would seem to he the command to send to the plotter to set these limits. In othwe words you send a series of characters to the plotter, starting with PS, and the plotter sets the limits. Now, how you actually do this depends -- a lot -- on the computer you're using, what opearating system and applications you're running, and so on. And you've told us nothign about this. In other words, given the bare plotter I could probably connect it up to one of my machines and send it the 'raw command' to set the hard clip limits to any physcially-possible value. But your application program may well not allow you to do this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 4 13:14:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:14:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Srm In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051204094152.339fbe42@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Dec 4, 5 09:41:52 am Message-ID: > > I can tell you what it is and I've seen the interface cards but I've never > used it and never seen the sever end of one. I thought the 50960 was the server, but I am probably mis-remembering things... >From what I remember, the server was in the same box as the 9817, but with a totally different mainboard (68000 based, not 68010 based I think). The mainboard has RS232 and HPIB ports. There are 3 DIO slots with esternal connector access, one contains the SRM card, one contains a text-only video card, the last a 'human interface card' (HP-HIL for the keyboard, a TI sound chip with a 3.5mm phone socket for the speaker, and another HPIB port). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 4 13:24:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> from "Gil Carrick" at Dec 4, 5 11:48:30 am Message-ID: > > According to Peter Norton, the BIOS code in a PC scans memory starting at > C000 and looking at every 2K block for the signature 0x55AA. (I am > paraphrasing.) This marks a ROM extension, probably in a software cartridge > or on a controller. What follows is supposedly a 1 byte length and a 3 byte > jump instruction. The BIOS initialization will then branch to this code and > execute it. The code can do anything, even take control of the system as is > done with some software cartridges. This ROM block can be at any even 2K A couple of additions to what you've said : The extension ROM routine is called after much of the rest of the system ahs been initialised and after the software interrupt vectors have been set up. It is common for the extension ROM initialisation routine to point some of said vectors to itself, and maybe save the old contents somewhere so the original routine ROM routine could be called if the requested operation is not handled by the extension ROM. For example you could intercept the disk read/write INT vector, use routines in the extension ROM to handle, say, 8" drives on a special controller, and go back to the routines in the normal BIOS for drives 0 and 1. Other than this initialisation entry point (and the header/checksum), the BIOS places no requirements on the format of an extension ROM and never itself tries to call anything other than the initialisation routine. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 4 15:38:36 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:38:36 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43935527.9040803@oldskool.org> References: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <43935527.9040803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439361DC.6050403@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > I lied when I said I didn't have a mac -- I have two Mac 512s. But I > wouldn't have the first clue on how to use them to create a system disk > to boot the SE/30. (I seem to remember formatting a diskette and then > copying over the SYSTEM folder, but the SYSTEM folder on the hard drive > is too big for a floppy...) Well if you've got a Mac Classic you can boot it with Splat-Alt-X-O and it will come up in OS 6. You can then copy the system and finder files to a floppy. Gordon. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 4 15:52:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:52:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> References: <008201c5f8fa$f0a0a720$0200a8c0@Gils6240> Message-ID: <20051204135124.N19069@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > address. The IBM EGA adapter went at C000, so graphics cards tend to end up > there. Comments in this block might be really informative or might simply > try to look very much like some IBM module so as to facilitate > interoperability. There was even, once, some software that looked for "IBM" there! So, some boards have the phrase "IBM compatible" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 4 15:53:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:53:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051204135319.Y19069@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > I was speaking figuratively. There is nothing wrong with the statement "When > you're broke, you pirate." It's called "the indefinite you" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 4 16:17:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 22:17:58 +0000 Subject: New Amiga toy In-Reply-To: <43931D43.6010605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 4/12/05 16:45, "Jim Leonard" wrote: > Witchy wrote: >>> http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/cyberstormmkiii.lha >> >> Yep, that's the site that told me what the 2 cards were so I downloaded > > Watch out with the Cyberstorm -- if you have a Rev D A4000 motherboard (the > last ever made) they remove a crystal that the Cyberstorm needs to operate. > Slightly more details in this older usenet posting: It's a fully working machine and comes with all the disks to rebuild as I've just discovered. Manuals too so I'm going to rebuild the system on another drive (it DOES boot off the IDE disk), surprisingly. It's a Rev B board so I'm ok on external clocking :) A/W From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 4 17:13:47 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:13:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <20051204135319.Y19069@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Dec 4, 5 01:53:53 pm" Message-ID: <200512042313.PAA13208@floodgap.com> > On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > > I was speaking figuratively. There is nothing wrong with the statement "When > > you're broke, you pirate." > > It's called "the indefinite you" (singing) Some words I've seen, that I might not mean Might also mean all, or no one person call But they wouldn't do For everyone else/you have to be wide And choose a word/that doesn't take sides Indefinite you, wonderful you Indefinite you. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I see nothing! Nothing! -- Sgt. Schultz, "Hogan's Heroes" ------------------ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 4 17:19:34 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:19:34 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of >> >>Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? Serial? If >>serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use AppleTalk? > > DB*9*? on an SE/30? Are you sure it's an SE/30? It's on an additional bracket (the only expansion slot?). Yes, it's definitely an SE/30. Maybe someone added it to use an older mouse? Seems stupid to tie up the only expansion slot with a DB9... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 4 17:24:44 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:24:44 -0600 Subject: pirating In-Reply-To: <439354A2.5090906@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> <4391214B.9070209@oldskool.org> <4392A012.3060902@pacbell.net> <43932F06.4070906@oldskool.org> <43933F75.7090703@pacbell.net> <439354A2.5090906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43937ABC.7000003@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >>> There is nothing wrong with the statement "When you're broke, you >>> pirate." >> >> >> There is nothing wrong with it except that it is a blanket statement >> and isn't true. Most people, when broke, do without. > > > If that's what you wanted to write, you should have written that instead > of attempting to pass it off as a grammar correction. That was supposed to be humor, to soften any criticism it implied of the underlying statement. > I don't disagree with you; most people go without. But I was (and still > am, to a degree) somewhat obsessive, so sitting idle drove crazy. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 4 17:54:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:54:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051204154836.X19069@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > DB*9*? on an SE/30? Are you sure it's an SE/30? > The last Mac to have a DB9 port was the Mac Plus, and that was for the mouse > (it used mini DIN-8 serial ports otherwise). The Mac 128 and 512 models had > DB9 ports for serial too. strange, when a DE9 would do. I have seen a DB9 on an Apple][. It was on the end of a cable connected to a serial card, and consisted of a 25 pin shell that only had pins in 1 through 8 and 20. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Dec 4 17:54:51 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:54:51 -0800 Subject: For users of Telenex / AR Datascopes... Message-ID: <200512041554510141.8586E8C4@192.168.42.129> This is a note to owners of the Telenex / Atlantic Research 'Interview' 7000 and 8000 series datascopes (sometimes known as serial data analyzers), particularly the 7000, 8700 Turbo, and 8800 Turbo series. I've been fortunate(?) enough to acquire a large stash (over a dozen) of the 8700's and 8800's. I'm in the process of archiving their EPROM and disk images even as I type this. I'm also experimenting with interchanging parts, just to see what happens and to see if a lower-end unit can be upgraded by putting a different set of EPROMs or a backplane PAL in place. I've been reliably informed that one of the units was a sales demo model, and had every possible option enabled in the software. I'm pretty sure I already archived it. I've also archived, among other things, the updated EPROMs necessary for the disk controller board to handle large SCSI drives (850MB at least). If anyone has one of these grand old beasties, and wants to resuscitate it or maybe upgrade it a bit, drop me a note. I can't promise I'll be able to help, but I may just have an answer or component that you need. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 4 18:13:43 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:13:43 +0000 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: <43931D43.6010605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Folks, Nosing round the docs for Amiga OS 3.5 tells me I need a Kickstart 3.1 ROM for this A4000 that I'm trying to save (dying boot drive has all the software on, to create from new needs the original CPU card that I don't have). Has anyone got a spare 3.1 ROM they'd like to sell? Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 4 18:39:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:39:10 +0000 Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43938C2E.3000708@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Random failure of the weekend was a UC3844 IC in a switchmode power supply - >> with a very loud bang, the entire top of the chip blew off, but there's no >> *obvious* sign of any other failure within the supply. > > This deos not mean there are no other component failurs. This sort of > thing is very common actially. I must have been lucky... all the ones I've had to fix before have had failed in other ways... > I would be very suprised if an IC failed that violently without there > being other component failures. Yes, so would I to be honest. >> Shame Sun don't publish schematics! > > It wouldn't do you a lot of good if they did, the supply is almost > certainly bought-in and there wouldn't be a schematic in the service > manual anyway. But it can't be that hard to draw out, can it? It's not *that* simple, because this is such a compact unit. There are a couple of vertically-mounted boards soldered on the main PCB. One contains the dead UC3844 and holds the circuitry that sits between the high voltage input side and low voltage output. The other board seems to be purely on the HV DC side and has a few surface-mount resistors on it, a small transistor, and a 16 pin IC labelled UC385x (there's a splodge of dye or something on it so I can't read the last number - doubtless it'll be easy to find via google when I come to look it up anyway). Then there are three large L-shaped heatsinks on the board which wrap over the top of the board components, and then another large slab heatsink is screwed to those. The slab heatsink comes off easily enough, but method of PSU construction is to bolt heatsinked components to the L-shaped heatsinks *before* soldering them in place. There's no access to undo the transistor / diode heatsink clamps without desoldering half the board. Component level repair was obviously not on Sun's list :) I can trace stuff with a continuity meter, common sense, and a visual on the PCB traces on the board underside (where luckily 95% of them are) - but a visual conformation of the PCB's topside is out without some major dismantling... (which of course I'm going to have to do if the chopper transistor's dead anyway in order to change it...) cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 4 20:20:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 21:20:46 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051204212046.1ba024b6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:19:34 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching > >some of > > >>Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? > >Serial? If >serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use > >AppleTalk? > > > > DB*9*? on an SE/30? Are you sure it's an SE/30? > > It's on an additional bracket (the only expansion slot?). Yes, > it's definitely an SE/30. Maybe someone added it to use an > older mouse? Seems stupid to tie up the only expansion slot > with a DB9... -- It must be something proprietary. That slot is used for various things, and I doubt if it would be a serial port. A video interface perhaps? You'll need to open the machine and see, I suspect. From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 20:34:18 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:34:18 -0500 Subject: DEC 3000-300x firmware upgrade Message-ID: I have the DEC 3000 booting off the firmware upgrade bootp image, right? When I enter "update" in the utility, it goes UPD-> update Read IO ROM Device ID ?05 HLT INSTR PC= 00000000.00000044 PSL= 00000000.00001F00 >>> (dumps me back to SRM console) What gives? Are my jumpers in the wrong position for updating? From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Dec 4 20:38:50 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:38:50 +1300 Subject: "Market" for old macs? References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <04ee01c5f945$06b65740$7900a8c0@athlon1200> It could be a video board for driving a large screen- I have one in an SE/30 here- can't recall the makers name off hand-will have to look. (perchance "Viking"?) DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:19 PM Subject: Re: "Market" for old macs? > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>>run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of >>> >>>Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? >>>Serial? If serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use >>>AppleTalk? >> >> DB*9*? on an SE/30? Are you sure it's an SE/30? > > It's on an additional bracket (the only expansion slot?). Yes, it's > definitely an SE/30. Maybe someone added it to use an older mouse? > Seems stupid to tie up the only expansion slot with a DB9... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: > 2/12/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 2/12/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 4 20:44:19 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:44:19 -0800 Subject: DEC 3000-300x firmware upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have the DEC 3000 booting off the firmware upgrade bootp image, right? >When I enter "update" in the utility, it goes > >UPD-> update >Read IO ROM Device ID > >?05 HLT INSTR > PC= 00000000.00000044 PSL= 00000000.00001F00 > >>>> (dumps me back to SRM console) > >What gives? Are my jumpers in the wrong position for updating? I think you're on the right track, I can't remember (plus the only 3000 series system I have is a 3000-300LX), however, I think you need to either have the one jumper added, or removed, in order to update the firmware. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 4 20:50:11 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 18:50:11 -0800 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:13 AM +0000 12/5/05, Adrian Graham wrote: >Folks, > >Nosing round the docs for Amiga OS 3.5 tells me I need a Kickstart 3.1 ROM >for this A4000 that I'm trying to save (dying boot drive has all the >software on, to create from new needs the original CPU card that I don't >have). > >Has anyone got a spare 3.1 ROM they'd like to sell? The drive has Amiga OS 3.5 on it doesn't it? If so, doesn't that system have 3.1 Rom's already (at worst you've got 3.0, but I'd think in any case with a 4000 that the odds are 3.1). Your best bet will be either eBay, or one of the Amiga dealers in the UK. I was going to suggest Eyetech, but just checked their website, and they don't have anything listed (in fact they hardly list anything anymore). In the US, you can buy them from Software Hut http://www.softhut.com a set is about $42US. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 20:52:15 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:52:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 3000-300x firmware upgrade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/4/05 9:44 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>>>> (dumps me back to SRM console) >> >> What gives? Are my jumpers in the wrong position for updating? > > I think you're on the right track, I can't remember (plus the only > 3000 series system I have is a 3000-300LX), however, I think you need > to either have the one jumper added, or removed, in order to update > the firmware. > > Zane > > No such luck there - It was a corrupted firmware file..... Wget downloaded it as ascii, a type I download with FTP got it fine, updated fine too Thanks anyway :) From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Dec 4 21:11:41 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 22:11:41 -0500 Subject: DEC 3000-300x firmware upgrade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> ?05 HLT INSTR >> PC= 00000000.00000044 PSL= 00000000.00001F00 >> >>>>> (dumps me back to SRM console) >> >> What gives? Are my jumpers in the wrong position for updating? > > I think you're on the right track, I can't remember (plus the only > 3000 series system I have is a 3000-300LX), however, I think you need > to either have the one jumper added, or removed, in order to update > the firmware. > > Zane > > Also, before and after, when I do sho dev it dosn't show either of my scsi drives, what gives there? They're jumpered to ID 1 and 2 ... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 4 22:08:10 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:08:10 -0500 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) References: Message-ID: <002a01c5f951$8a8275c0$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) > At 12:13 AM +0000 12/5/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > >Folks, > > > >Nosing round the docs for Amiga OS 3.5 tells me I need a Kickstart 3.1 ROM > >for this A4000 that I'm trying to save (dying boot drive has all the > >software on, to create from new needs the original CPU card that I don't > >have). > > > >Has anyone got a spare 3.1 ROM they'd like to sell? > > The drive has Amiga OS 3.5 on it doesn't it? If so, doesn't that > system have 3.1 Rom's already (at worst you've got 3.0, but I'd think > in any case with a 4000 that the odds are 3.1). > > Your best bet will be either eBay, or one of the Amiga dealers in the > UK. I was going to suggest Eyetech, but just checked their website, > and they don't have anything listed (in fact they hardly list > anything anymore). In the US, you can buy them from Software Hut > http://www.softhut.com a set is about $42US. > > Zane > Some upgrades (like my 68030/50) allow a different kickstart to loaded on bootup with a utility. I think the utility is called relokick or something like that. Some people use this to run older kickstarts for game compatibility, others do it to installed newer a newer OS. Since the person asking is in the UK I recommend a European EBAY seller since those kinds of things are cheaper to find in Europe then in the US. I recommend you checkout the EAB (English Amiga Board Forum) at http:// eab.abime.net From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 4 23:21:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 00:21:40 -0500 Subject: DEC M7506 switch settings Message-ID: <200512050021.40561.pat@computer-refuge.org> Does anyone happen to have a listing of what the switch/jumper settings for a DEC M7506-BC (aka MSV11-MB) are? I've got one that I'd like to check is set correctly before I try to use it... Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 5 00:13:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 01:13:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [defeating copy protection schemes] > There were some schemes that were simply evil in their cleverness and > ingenuity. King's Quest 2 encrypted the main code with a cypher kept > somewhere abnormal [...] While it's not the sort of game you're talking about, I recall discovering some of the elaborate copy-protection "defense in depth" in the Tempest ROMs. I've been on-and-off (rather "off" for a while now, I fear) working on a fully commented disassembly of the Tempest ROMs. It's only 24K of ROM, including all the vector-generator tables...and there are at least two pieces of code that try to ensure the game breaks mysteriously if you change or dike out the copyright notice on screen. (Indeed, one of them is buggy and thinks valid copies are invalid; it's responsible for the easter eggs you can find described for Tempest - certain values in the low two digits of the score at certain times can produce weird and wonderful effects. This is a misfire of copyright-anti-dikeout stuff.) > The future of software protection is coming, and it's not pretty. > Public-key assymetric encryption schemes are already in use; your > software phones the mothership to authenticate. Joy. Not much good unless the game is inherently "online", 'cause it means the game can't be played unless it can connect to the mothership. Still defeatable by use of emulators or ICE tools, though; while they can do things like PK-encrypt the game's code, the code must at some time exist in executable form, and can be copied then. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 5 00:36:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:36:05 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >Not much good unless the game is inherently "online", 'cause it means >the game can't be played unless it can connect to the mothership. > > > I've played a few -- connect online to play games. The problem is what happens 10 or 15 years down the road, when the company that made the game is toast, or the websites gone bye bye? Also you can't sell the games as well. >Still defeatable by use of emulators or ICE tools, though; while they >can do things like PK-encrypt the game's code, the code must at some >time exist in executable form, and can be copied then. > > > Most games have a two week life span any how... no wait that is the console you play it on. :) >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > >. > > > From brushman at esper.com Mon Dec 5 00:42:14 2005 From: brushman at esper.com (Jimmy D) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 01:42:14 -0500 Subject: HP Plotter Message-ID: <000801c5f967$083a18a0$03e19c44@esper.com> Thanks Tony for the reply. I'm using a 350mhz PC, Win98, Corel Draw V8. I draw vector images, and always plot from print preview. I don't type any coordinates in, just send the image. I was doing more snooping around the HP manuals, and between them, found this: HP-GL/2 units of measure The plotter can use plotter units or user units "Under default conditions, the unit uses plotter-units" 1 plotter-unit=0.025mm(0.00098inch) 40 plotter-units=1mm 1016 plotter-units=1 inch 3.39 plotter-units=1 dot at 300 DPI Here is a chart that was with the PS info I posted before: parameter_______format______range________________________default length integer 0 to 8388607 plotter-units depends on media size width integer 0 to 8388607 plotter-units depends on media size. These manuals were scanned and saved in Acrobat reader. Print quality seems good but maybe there's a decimal I'm not seeing??? 1016 into 8388607 is 8256.50... 12 into 8256.5 is 688. 688 feet? I'm missing something here. It did say plotter-units, not user units. Oh well thanks again. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 00:50:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:50:16 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4393E328.20601@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>The future of software protection is coming, and it's not pretty. >>Public-key assymetric encryption schemes are already in use; your >>software phones the mothership to authenticate. Joy. > > Not much good unless the game is inherently "online", 'cause it means > the game can't be played unless it can connect to the mothership. Game doesn't have to be inherently online -- it can be a completely offline game and still require per-run authentication. Needless to say, I will most likely not be purchasing these games unless they are completely worth it (Half-Life 2 is one that's kept me on the fence for almost a year now). > Still defeatable by use of emulators or ICE tools, though; while they > can do things like PK-encrypt the game's code, the code must at some > time exist in executable form, and can be copied then. Yes, but there's a time issue involved. These schemes have checks upon checks upon more and more checks, and my time is most definitely worth enough money nowadays that it's not worth it for me to spend 6 weeks creating a decrypted version of the game. I still crack older games, but that's because they're 15-20 years old and in danger of being lost forever (and they only take hours to crack). Yes, there are others for whom it is a challenge, but modern games take up at least 24-48 hours of download time to pirate -- again, more time I don't have (I need my bandwidth for more productive work). One of the problems of getting older :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 00:56:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:56:30 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > The problem is what happens 10 or 15 years down the road, when the > company that > made the game is toast, or the websites gone bye bye? Also you can't How about 15 months? That's what happened to Alien Front Online, a Dreamcast game that used SegaNet to connect players to each other for online play. 15 months after the game's release, Sega closes SegaNet and bingo, no more online play (along with 99% of all the other Dreamcast online games). Yet another reason I won't spend money on a game I can't play completely disconnected from the 'net. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 00:57:12 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:57:12 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051204212046.1ba024b6.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <20051204212046.1ba024b6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > It must be something proprietary. That slot is used for various > things, and I doubt if it would be a serial port. A video > interface perhaps? You'll need to open the machine and see, I > suspect. Any illustrated online guides for opening up an SE/30? I don't like to fiddle around with a screwdriver and hope I don't damage things. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 5 01:11:57 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 02:11:57 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:56 AM Subject: Re: "Market" for old macs? > woodelf wrote: > > The problem is what happens 10 or 15 years down the road, when the > > company that > > made the game is toast, or the websites gone bye bye? Also you can't > > How about 15 months? That's what happened to Alien Front Online, a Dreamcast > game that used SegaNet to connect players to each other for online play. 15 > months after the game's release, Sega closes SegaNet and bingo, no more online > play (along with 99% of all the other Dreamcast online games). > > Yet another reason I won't spend money on a game I can't play completely > disconnected from the 'net. > -- > Did anybody figure out a way to get around seganet so these games can be hosted some other place? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 5 01:27:50 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 5, 5 00:57:12 am" Message-ID: <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> > Any illustrated online guides for opening up an SE/30? I don't like to > fiddle around with a screwdriver and hope I don't damage things. It should be the same as any Compact Mac. The essential tool is a Mac Cracker, a long shaft Torx T-15 screwdriver (Fry's carries them under that exact name). Depending on the model, there are four or five such screws on the back -- two are invariably deep under the handle, hence the need for the shaft, and two or three in plain view. Separating the two case halves can be done by hand, but you can get a "case cracker" (different from a Mac Cracker) to do the separation if you're worried about this. I can do it with a flathead screwdriver, but do so very carefully. That should get you inside. Mind the CRT, of course. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 5 01:48:46 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:48:46 -0800 Subject: HP 150 Touchscreen In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20050912110826.05f4fb38@mail.homepower.com> (Michael Welch's message of "Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:14:26 -0700") References: <6.0.0.22.2.20050912110826.05f4fb38@mail.homepower.com> Message-ID: <200512050748.jB57mk4a097739@lots.reanimators.org> Michael Welch wrote (on 12 Sep 2005): > Just cleaning out storage and decided to sell my one-owner HP150B. And I suck, because it's taken me 'til now to get me, the service manual, and the e-mail reader together. > But, I can't get past the pre-boot error message, "Power-on test > failed 0004" or sometimes "0000c". This means that the "extensive memory test" failed in the base 64KB of RAM. The 0004 would indicate bit 2, which on the 9-inch 150 is the IC at U44 on the Mezzanine Memory PCA, and 000c would indicate bits 2 and 3, and bit 3 is U45. The service manual suggests replacing the board or those ICs on the board. Briefly, self-test codes on the 9-inch 150s go like this: 00xx - 0axx: extensive memory test failures the second digit (0-a) indicates the 64KB page; 0-9 are page numbers, but a is also page 0 the third and fourth digits indicate which bits failed 10xx - 19xx: traveling 1s RAM test failures the second digit (0-a) indicates the 64KB page; 0-9 are page numbers, but a is also page 0 the third and fourth digits indicate which bits failed 20xx - 29xx: memory refresh test failures the second digit (0-a) indicates the 64KB page; 0-9 are page numbers, but a is also page 0 the third and fourth digits indicate which bits failed 30xx - 39xx: marching 1s RAM test failures the second digit (0-a) indicates the 64KB page; 0-9 are page numbers, but a is also page 0 the third and fourth digits indicate which bits failed 3fxx: integrity test (RAM) failures repair indication is to replace boards containing DRAM until problem stops occuring 4xxx: RAM ID test failed bit 0 should be 1 bits 1-10 indicate which 64KB page failed 5355: CMOS RAM failed CRC 57xx: CMOS RAM failed non-destructive test 6xxx: system ROMs failed either CRC or position test 8xxx: interrupt controller test failed 91xx: keyboard and touchscreen test failed 93xx: real time clock test failed 980x: microprocessor test failed 9cxx: HP-IB test failed axxx: datacomm port 1 test failed bxxx: datacomm port 2 test failed dxxx: alpha (terminal) SRAM test failed exxx: graphice (terminal) DRAM test failed ffxx: alpha video controller test failed I'm thinking most of these test codes have similar meanings for the 12-inch 150s too, but don't have the manual in front of me to check; and of course the IC part locations differ between the two. -Frank McConnell From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 02:08:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 02:08:13 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> Message-ID: <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > Did anybody figure out a way to get around seganet so these games can be > hosted some other place? Nope. It will take reverse-engineering the protocol to get it work, but more importantly it will take finding an ISP that you can call to get PPP working. The major dial-up providers (AOL, netzero, etc.) require custom software, to my knowledge; they aren't straight-up SLIP or PPP. TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command $150-$200 on epay. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 5 02:12:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 03:12:21 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <008301c5f973$a71e1910$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:08 AM Subject: Re: "Market" for old macs? > Teo Zenios wrote: > > Did anybody figure out a way to get around seganet so these games can be > > hosted some other place? > > Nope. It will take reverse-engineering the protocol to get it work, but more > importantly it will take finding an ISP that you can call to get PPP working. > The major dial-up providers (AOL, netzero, etc.) require custom software, to my > knowledge; they aren't straight-up SLIP or PPP. > > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command $150-$200 on epay. > -- > Yea, a bit expensive. I have a VGA box, mouse and keyboard (among other things) for my dreamcast. it is a very nice machine. Try playing some games on a large VGA monitor, graphics are nicer. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 02:13:57 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 02:13:57 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4393F6C5.4010207@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > more importantly it will take finding an ISP that you can call to get When I wrote the above I wasn't thinking about setting up your own PPP host. Obviously that would be trivial for most here. Just trying to ward off the inevitable "...but you forgot to..." messages. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 5 02:21:48 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:21:48 +0000 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/12/05 02:50, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> Has anyone got a spare 3.1 ROM they'd like to sell? > > The drive has Amiga OS 3.5 on it doesn't it? If so, doesn't that > system have 3.1 Rom's already (at worst you've got 3.0, but I'd think > in any case with a 4000 that the odds are 3.1). It's OS3.0 with a V39.xx kickstart. > anything anymore). In the US, you can buy them from Software Hut > http://www.softhut.com a set is about $42US. I suppose I don't mind shelling out some $$$ on the machine since I got it for the price of postage :) Having said that, the whole reason for installing 3.5 is to get the web stuff and tcp/ip stack but there's little point in that until I get an ethernet board! Cheers a From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Dec 5 02:26:37 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:26:37 +0100 Subject: DEC 3000-300x firmware upgrade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051205082637.GV13985@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2005-12-04 18:44:19 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think you're on the right track, I can't remember (plus the only > 3000 series system I have is a 3000-300LX), however, I think you need > to either have the one jumper added, or removed, in order to update > the firmware. Just for the records... There's a jumper at least on some TurboChannel Alphas protecting against flash overwrites. However, on basically all machines I've seen, this jumper is in "allow write" position by factory default. A friend of me acidentally corruptes his flash chips due to that fact, so don't learn it the hard way and secure your machine after your flash update :-> MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 5 02:51:40 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:51:40 +0100 Subject: USB and such (was: Mac Mini) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> Am 2 Dec 2005 7:47 meinte Cini, Richard: > On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >> Yep, personally I'd only buy a Mac mini if it was 10-20% bigger and came >> with some real ports - say serial, parallel, and SCSI. Then it'd be a nice >> compact well-designed machine with some useful connectivity too. It seems >> that no matter what the USB-advocates say, bodging that sort of stuff on >> top of Universal Screwed-up Bus plain doesn't work... Well, what do you need? USB is a prety good system and delivers an interface for all actual stuff I ever need. Originaly I was also quite sceptic of USB, but after digging into the low level structure, I became somewhat of an evangelist (*1). And if you realy want to do high speed disks there's still the fire wire port for high thruput to a single device (*2). Printers (at least the ones I tried) run faster on USB, and I can't find any real reason for serial on an average Desktop anymore (*3). Last but the not least, the usual 'I still have a 10 MB SCSI drive I want to connect isn't realy an argument. > Doesn't that essentially get you a VIA EPIA motherboard (except for the > SCSI)? Only problem there is that it doesn't run OSX. Well, for the PC-World, such little EPIA boxes are what I usualy recommend to (non tech *4) people. small, silent, and more than they ever need to run Word. Gruss H. *1 - In fact, if I had to design a new system today, I would use USB as a bus structure to be used for add on cards. Simple handling, no interface problems, no electrical problems,easy driver structure and fast enough for almost everything, even including graphics. To be OT again: does anybody remember the PC375 that used SCSI as bus system for it's I/O cards? USB _IS_ todays SCSI. *2 - If disk size and speed is THAT cruical, the MiniMe might be the wrong choice in the first place. Get yourself a big fat tower. *3 - If someone comes up with DSL or Modems here, I would suggest that by jumping from a bridge it's more fun to loose your mind. A router costs a few bucks and takes away a whole universe of problems. *4 - And I learned that even a lot of tech educated people like the idea of a small 'just-use-it' box. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 5 03:00:27 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:00:27 +0100 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: References: from "Cini, Richard" at Dec 2, 5 07:47:27 am Message-ID: <43940FBB.13824.41E3837F@localhost> Am 2 Dec 2005 23:58 meinte Tony Duell: > [1] Does a USB-GPIB interface exist? I assume it must do, but I've not > seen one (I've not seriously looked either, my GPIB stuff is generally > controller by HP hosts [2]) I use this little bugger: http://www.techsoft.de/htbasic/german/82357am.shtml Quite nice one. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 5 03:05:56 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:05:56 +0100 Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <43941104.17110.41E88849@localhost> Am 4 Dec 2005 0:24 meinte Philip Pemberton: > In message <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a at jfcl.com> > "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the > > status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around > > these days? > What I would REALLY like is something similar to OS/9, but for the 6502. Maybe try that one: http://www.6502.org/users/andre/osa/ H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Dec 5 03:11:40 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:11:40 +0000 Subject: Mainframe Parts available: IBM EnterpriseSystem 9000 Model 9221 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200512050831.jB58VTxI076500@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Folk, I did an eBay run this weekend to pick up my first actual mainframe -- a 1992 IBM Model 9221. There's more of it than I really need for my own fooling around and I wondered if anyone on the list was interested in bits. Basically I have three I/O card cages and only really need one. And of course a bunch of excess cards -- mostly feature 6310, 6031 and 6130. I would consider swaps or pretty short money as I'm more concerned about not buckling the ceiling of the flat down stairs than the money. Swap-wise I'd consider main memory, missing cabling, media and that sort of thing. There are also a number of manuals I can part with as well. I might also be willing to part with some of the DASD. I'm not finished inventorying, so if there's something you'd like me to check for, please let me know. Colin Eby ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bert at brothom.nl Mon Dec 5 04:27:47 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:27:47 +0100 Subject: USB and such In-Reply-To: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> References: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> Message-ID: <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 2 Dec 2005 7:47 meinte Cini, Richard: > > *1 - In fact, if I had to design a new system today, I would use > USB as a bus structure to be used for add on cards. Simple > handling, no interface problems, no electrical problems,easy > driver structure and fast enough for almost everything, even > including graphics. Can you by any chance point me in a direction where to find documentation about USB? Would I need special licenses to obtain the specs? I would like to have the hardware programming information. TIA, bert From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Dec 5 04:58:21 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:58:21 +0000 Subject: USB and such In-Reply-To: <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> References: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43941D4D.7040608@gjcp.net> Bert Thomas wrote: > Hans Franke wrote: > >> Am 2 Dec 2005 7:47 meinte Cini, Richard: >> >> *1 - In fact, if I had to design a new system today, I would use >> USB as a bus structure to be used for add on cards. Simple >> handling, no interface problems, no electrical problems,easy >> driver structure and fast enough for almost everything, even >> including graphics. > > > Can you by any chance point me in a direction where to find > documentation about USB? Would I need special licenses to obtain the specs? > I would like to have the hardware programming information. A good place to start would be the NetBSD kernel. That's more of a "worked example" than spec, but if you're interested in writing code that uses USB it's probably the best implementation. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 5 05:12:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:12:07 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <4390E446.4030702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43942087.7080105@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: >> The future of software protection is coming, and it's not pretty. >> Public-key assymetric encryption schemes are already in use; your >> software phones the mothership to authenticate. Joy. Yes, and not just application or games software either. Think DRM; you hand money over to the provider and they dictate how you can use the thing you've just paid for on your own hardware, whether it be video, still images, music etc. It's OK whilst you can still buy that data in non DRM form, but that choice won't be around forever the way things are going. It's going to be a sorry place for the consumer in a few years time... cheers Jules From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Dec 5 05:25:57 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:25:57 +0000 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393F6C5.4010207@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> <4393F6C5.4010207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439423C5.60205@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> more importantly it will take finding an ISP that you can call to get > > > When I wrote the above I wasn't thinking about setting up your own PPP > host. Obviously that would be trivial for most here. > > Just trying to ward off the inevitable "...but you forgot to..." messages. Over in the UK there are a lot of companies doing dialup 0845 numbers. They are a couple of pence per minute, with no registration required. Gordon. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 5 06:39:20 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:39:20 +0100 Subject: USB and such In-Reply-To: <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> References: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> Message-ID: <43944308.28453.42ABE5B6@localhost> Am 5 Dec 2005 11:27 meinte Bert Thomas: > Hans Franke wrote: > > Am 2 Dec 2005 7:47 meinte Cini, Richard: > > *1 - In fact, if I had to design a new system today, I would use > > USB as a bus structure to be used for add on cards. Simple > > handling, no interface problems, no electrical problems,easy > > driver structure and fast enough for almost everything, even > > including graphics. > Can you by any chance point me in a direction where to find > documentation about USB? Would I need special licenses to obtain the specs? > I would like to have the hardware programming information. As for myself, I started out with the USB documentation, as found on the USB.ORG site the data sheets of two 8 Bit USB host controlers and a book called USB Design by Example from Intel Press (And another book even better one ... just I can't remember the title). Both give a rather nice step by step introduction into priciples and whereabouts. Of course the Intel book uses quite some windows code, incudeing how to write drivers and so on. It alos covers very broad the device side and how to attach various CPUs. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 07:31:35 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 08:31:35 -0500 Subject: Mainframe Parts available: IBM EnterpriseSystem 9000 Model 9221 Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43944137.3070804@gmail.com> Colin Eby wrote: > > > > Folk, > > I did an eBay run this weekend to pick up my first actual mainframe -- a > 1992 IBM Model 9221. There's more of it than I really need for my own > fooling around and I wondered if anyone on the list was interested in bits. > Basically I have three I/O card cages and only really need one. And of > course a bunch of excess cards -- mostly feature 6310, 6031 and 6130. I > would consider swaps or pretty short money as I'm more concerned about not > buckling the ceiling of the flat down stairs than the money. Swap-wise I'd > consider main memory, missing cabling, media and that sort of thing. There > are also a number of manuals I can part with as well. I might also be > willing to part with some of the DASD. I'm not finished inventorying, so > if there's something you'd like me to check for, please let me know. You didn't mention where you are. Shipping some of this stuff could get expensive. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 5 07:49:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 05:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dreamcast was Re: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 5, 5 02:08:13 am" Message-ID: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command $150-$200 on > epay. I got mine for $80 and considered that a bargain. It was, of course, almost as much as the stupid DC cost new. It's still probably tied for "favourite console" with my Intellivision. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do not use for personal hygiene. -- Actual label, toilet brush ------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 5 08:13:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:13:45 +0000 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43944B19.3090800@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > I suppose I don't mind shelling out some $$$ on the machine since I got it > for the price of postage :) Having said that, the whole reason for > installing 3.5 is to get the web stuff and tcp/ip stack but there's little > point in that until I get an ethernet board! Is a SLIP connection to another box doing some IP voodoo an option in the meantime? chers, (urgh, one of them is bad enough...) Jules From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Dec 4 14:04:15 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:04:15 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051204145808.033db8b8@boff-net.dhs.org> Well, a local FreeCycler in my area is giving up a working mac powerbook 5300 series (trying to find out if it is the better/more loaded 'ce' version). I'm thinking of picking it up since it also comes with power supply and spare battery that the owner says is good. Can anyone tell me their experiences with such a machine? I believe it meets the 10yr rule (or is close to meeting it) as the 5300 line was out in 1995. Does it take standard PC (PCMCIA) cards or does it take mac variant PC cards? What is it's upgrade path? Can the OS be upped to something more recent/stable (as I've been told it started off with an OS 7.2.x version that was horrible)? Would Linux be a better choice over mac OS 9.x/10.x on it? Just looking for first hand experiences/knowledge. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:36 PM 12/4/2005, you wrote: >On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) >Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. > > > > > > Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for > > > the advice. > > > > I think you'll enjoy it. :) > > > >I'm now enjoying the SE that I picked up yesterday. I have a CD >burner installed on it and am figuring out just what software will >run on it. It has an Ethernet card, so I plan on fetching some of >the things suitable for the machine and burning to CD. It came >with OS 7.1 installed on it, and I've preserved that. I >'upgraded' to an Apple 250M hard drive, as I could see the 20 >megger being completely filled up almost immediately (it already >was, as received). It's really nice that you can just format and >copy over entire drives on the Mac. I plugged in an external SCSI >drive and 'copied over' the entire 20 Meg original drive, then >replaced the internal drive with an Apple 250, then booted from >the external drive and copied it's contents over to the new >internal drive. > >I'm right now in the process of installing a PDP-8 Simulator on it >from a shareware CD I got years ago. > > > -- > > --------------------------------- personal: > > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > > ckaiser at floodgap.com > > -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no > > difference. -------- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 10:34:52 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 11:34:52 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051204145808.033db8b8@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051204145808.033db8b8@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <43946C2C.4020809@gmail.com> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Well, a local FreeCycler in my area is giving up a working mac powerbook > 5300 series (trying to find out if it is the better/more loaded 'ce' > version). I'm thinking of picking it up since it also comes with power > supply and spare battery that the owner says is good. > Can anyone tell me their experiences with such a machine? I believe it > meets the 10yr rule (or is close to meeting it) as the 5300 line was out > in 1995. Does it take standard PC (PCMCIA) cards or does it take mac > variant PC cards? What is it's upgrade path? Can the OS be upped to > something more recent/stable (as I've been told it started off with an > OS 7.2.x version that was horrible)? Would Linux be a better choice over > mac OS 9.x/10.x on it? Just looking for first hand experiences/knowledge. I don't believe this machine will run OS 10. I don't think it'll run 9.2 either. It's 9.1 or before. Also, bear in mind that this machine will have a hard drive with about 500MB so you might need to upgrade. My suggestion would be to try a newish version of OS 8. Anything better than OS 8.6 should allow you use ~8 GB drives. Another thing to know is that it maxes out at 64MB RAM, so don't try to run Mozilla on it. 8-) I wouldn't bother taking it if it's not a color model, but that's just me. NetBSD won't run on it since it's NuBus, and I don't know too much about NuBus Linux. Maybe someone else can comment. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 5 10:43:52 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:43:52 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: <43944B19.3090800@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43944B19.3090800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <50851.135.196.233.27.1133801032.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, December 5, 2005 2:13 pm, Jules Richardson said: > > Is a SLIP connection to another box doing some IP voodoo an option in the > meantime? Possibly but getting it on the web is only a future project. The more immediate problem is getting the boot drive copied successfully since I can't reinstall onto a new drive without the original processor in the machine - the Cyberstorm requires you to install the software before the processor board :o\ The original owner is now in Switzerland but he's going to check his stuff when it arrives later in the week. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 10:49:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:49:59 +1300 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/5/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Funny, mine has a DB9 female connector on it -- what is that? Serial? If > >>serial, then why? Didn't most ApplePeople use AppleTalk? The DIN-8 connectors can be used for straight serial, as to a modem, or for AppleTalk - you can have both on one machine at the same time. Both serial ports have the same physical layer driver chips, and they are just the A and B channels of a Z8530 - interchangable. > It's on an additional bracket (the only expansion slot?)... Maybe someone added > it to use an older mouse? Seems stupid to tie up the only expansion slot with a DB9... I doubt it's a serial connection - most likely it's for driving an external mono monitor. Crack the case and look at the expansion card to be sure. Radius and others made video boards for the Mac. -ethan From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 5 11:03:34 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:03:34 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051201170150.O47897@shell.lmi.net> References: <438F8747.9090808@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051201170150.O47897@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/1/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > Hey! I teach at Vista College Me, too. Taught at least. Used to do a 3 hour lecture on thursday nights. Gave it up because I didn't have the time anymore. > http://merritt.edu/~fcisin > After 30 years, Vista College has just voted to change its name. > (to Berkeley Community College. > Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 11:20:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 06:20:21 +1300 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/3/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > *Why*, ffs? Why do people insist on using ancient copies of Linux on > old hardware? There is *no difference in speed* between old and new > kernels. In some cases newer ones are faster on the same old hardware. In my case, it's because modern and semi-modern distros won't even install on hardware with too little memory. I'm happy to max out the hardware to the memory limit, but sometimes, that's not enough. Case in point - I have a PS/2-e (as seen here - http://www.nothingtodo.org/classiccmp/ps2e.htm ). The max memory one can install is 16MB, which I've done. It's running RedHat 5.x and has been for over 5 years because newer distros won't install with that little memory. Another case is a pile of 486-based "network PCs" built into a keyboard base - 4 30-pin SIMMs slots... runs plenty fast, but unless I can find some 4-chip 8MB SIMMs (yes they exist - they are just really odd), I'm stuck with 4 x 4MB and in the same boat as the PS/2-e It's not about CPU power - even a 16MHz 386 is a lot of power for a non-GUI single-user UNIX machine... bloatware, from any vendor, obsoletes machines long before they become too tired to function. While I'm not arguing that there have been improvements in kernels over the years, to wring decent performance out of any machine, having enough memory lying around that you don't have to swap is a pretty good performance boost. That means that machines that max out at 16M or 64M or anything "small" by modern standards are not going to be able to run modern software without looking old and tired. You end up going with something from that machine's "golden age" just to get any useful work done. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 5 11:40:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:40:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 OSes? (was OS/9 and software for the 6809) Message-ID: <200512051740.JAA29782@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Hans Franke" > >Am 4 Dec 2005 0:24 meinte Philip Pemberton: > >> In message <001801c5f835$21bac2d0$0401010a at jfcl.com> >> "Robert Armstrong" wrote: >> > I know there was at one time an OS/9 for the 6809 - does anybody know the >> > status of that today? Is there other software for the 6809 floating around >> > these days? > >> What I would REALLY like is something similar to OS/9, but for the 6502. > >Maybe try that one: >http://www.6502.org/users/andre/osa/ Hi A fellow named Dallas has a reasonably good DOS that could be adapted to most any other disk configuration. When I get time to fiddle with things, I hope to get the original OS running that came with the FDC-1 used on the SYM-1. My FDC-1 was missing a number of parts. It was only recently that I've been able to collect what I needed. Now, all I need is a little time to bring it together. This DOS is a difficult one to use but the one that Dallas has is a more complete DOS. I beleive it was written by a fellow in Japan. Later Dwight From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 5 12:13:46 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:13:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051204145808.033db8b8@boff-net.dhs.org> from John Boffemmyer IV at "Dec 4, 5 03:04:15 pm" Message-ID: <200512051813.KAA14770@floodgap.com> > Well, a local FreeCycler in my area is giving up a working mac > powerbook 5300 series (trying to find out if it is the better/more > loaded 'ce' version). I'm thinking of picking it up since it also > comes with power supply and spare battery that the owner says is good. > Can anyone tell me their experiences with such a machine? I believe > it meets the 10yr rule (or is close to meeting it) as the 5300 line > was out in 1995. Does it take standard PC (PCMCIA) cards or does it > take mac variant PC cards? What is it's upgrade path? Can the OS be > upped to something more recent/stable (as I've been told it started > off with an OS 7.2.x version that was horrible)? Would Linux be a > better choice over mac OS 9.x/10.x on it? Just looking for first hand > experiences/knowledge. Ah, the 5300. I had one for a few months which was supposed to be my backup laptop, but I got an iBook instead and my 1400 is now my backup. I ended up finding the 5300 a new one and the owner is very happy with it. It takes standard 16-bit PCMCIA. NO CARDBUS! Drivers are required, however. For my 5300 I used an EtherLink III PCMCIA card and the driver I maintain here: http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/mac/enet3c589/ It has no real upgrade path, unlike the 1400 that can be upgraded all the way to a G3. You can upgrade the RAM with a single proprietary stick, and there are still occasionally used sticks or NOS sticks for sale. The OS can be maxed to 9.1, but I don't recommend this -- too slow on the 603, and you will need a "lot" (read: at least 32MB) of RAM. Plus, you'd need to turn VM on even with the RAM near maximum, and this slows it down more. On the 5300, I wouldn't exceed 8.1. It won't ever run OS X -- not possible. The NuBus machines aren't supported by it. For the same reason, it cannot run NetBSD -- it *may* run NuBus Linux, but its hardware support may be spotty. When I had my 5300, I ran 8.1 (and it had 48MB of RAM). It's a nice little PowerBook, but be aware of its limits. The 1400 is my favourite of that range, because it has a G3 option, a fantastic keyboard, stackable RAM slots, CD-ROM and (1400c) a wonderful active matrix screen. Nevertheless, the 5300 is still very capable within its operating range. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Maybe this world is another planet's hell. -- Aldous Huxley ---------------- From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Dec 5 12:23:29 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:23:29 +0000 Subject: Mainframe Parts available: IBM EnterpriseSystem 9000 Model 9221 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200512051800.jB5I03ML082907@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Sridhar - > You didn't mention where you are. Shipping some of this stuff > could get expensive. > > Peace... Sridhar Fair point. The 9221 and I are in Hampshire, England. For the US, that's still useful for individual cards, though admittedly not of course for anything bulky. I'm flying back to the States for the holidays, anyway. Posting domestically would be possible if there's an interest. Just don't ask me to put a rackmount DASD in my carryon. Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 5 12:26:09 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:26:09 -0800 Subject: Dreamcast was Re: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> References: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 5:49 AM -0800 12/5/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command $150-$200 on >> epay. > >I got mine for $80 and considered that a bargain. It was, of course, almost >as much as the stupid DC cost new. > >It's still probably tied for "favourite console" with my Intellivision. The Dreamcast *IS* my favorite console, what other console has had such a high percentage of good arcade ports? I really wish they'd kept it alive, instead of killing it off early in the game. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 12:48:25 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:48:25 -0500 Subject: Dreamcast was Re: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43948B79.1030903@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:49 AM -0800 12/5/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command >> $150-$200 on >> >>> epay. >> >> >> I got mine for $80 and considered that a bargain. It was, of course, >> almost >> as much as the stupid DC cost new. >> >> It's still probably tied for "favourite console" with my Intellivision. > > > The Dreamcast *IS* my favorite console, what other console has had such > a high percentage of good arcade ports? I really wish they'd kept it > alive, instead of killing it off early in the game. I liked gaming on the Dreamcast, but I *really* like NetBSD + X11 on the Dreamcast. Peace... Sridhar From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 5 12:50:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:50:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <200512051850.KAA31677@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 12/2/2005 at 2:42 PM woodelf wrote: > >>Well it is not standard with the windows I have. > >Was it ever standard with Windows or DOS? If memory serves, it was always >an add-on package. IIRC, MASM 1.0 was abouit $100, which didn't make it >much of a bargain. > >LIB and LINK were packaged with DOS, but not MASM. ASM was standard with >CP/M, but it was kind of brain-dead (no macro facility, linking or >relocation). Most folks who wanted to program assembler seriously on 8 bit >stuff picked up either M80/L80 or RMAC. > >Didn't the Polymorphic or Processor Tech systems box ship with a resident >editor (BASC-style with line numbers) and a simple assembler? I seem to >remember hacking the I/O in it to work with my MITS box. Even added a few >of my own commands. > >Cheers, >Chuck Hi Polymorphic had a combined editor/assembler with its cassette based assembler. The disk based assembler is more normal text based( as I recall ). Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 13:00:05 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:00:05 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Chassis... Message-ID: <43948E35.70200@gmail.com> Hi. I'm looking for the chassis to a PS/2 Model 95A server. I don't need the motherboard, just the chassis and power supply, complete with the front panel display and drive bay covers. Anyone know where I might be able to get one for not too much money? Peace... Sridar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 5 13:02:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 12:02:51 -0700 Subject: USB and such In-Reply-To: <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> References: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43948EDB.6090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Bert Thomas wrote: > > Can you by any chance point me in a direction where to find > documentation about USB? Would I need special licenses to obtain the > specs? > I would like to have the hardware programming information. > I think all usb stuff is buy the 'chip', who needs hardware doc's. :( You know I still remember when USB cables were are $100 to plug into to a motherboard so you could have USB. > TIA, > > bert From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Dec 5 13:09:05 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:09:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43946C2C.4020809@gmail.com> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20051204145808.033db8b8@boff-net.dhs.org> <43946C2C.4020809@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote Re: PowerBook 5300: > NetBSD won't run on it since it's NuBus, and I don't know too much about > NuBus Linux. Maybe someone else can comment. It's listed as supported on http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ and I remember at least one person posting a sucess story back when I was on the nubus mailing list. Alexey From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 13:55:01 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:55:01 -0600 Subject: Dreamcast was Re: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> References: <200512051349.FAA19008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43949B15.9000705@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It's still probably tied for "favourite console" with my Intellivision. Agreed, my DC is my favorite too. It's funny, but to bring this OT I think the DC is the favorite console of a lot of old hardware hackers because it shares many of the same things that we like old hardware for: - It had a lot of good, unique hardware ideas introduced that were either too weird or misunderstood to be copied to other console hardware (LCD screens and controls on the memory cards, proprietary GDROM format, built-in web browser, etc.) - Tinker-friendlu: Without cracking open the unit you could develop software for it and even run NetBSD on it I'm probably missing some comparisons because my old hardware knowledge ends at 1974, but you catch my drift. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Dec 5 13:56:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:56:12 -0500 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> I've also got an Amiga 4000T, and I just had a *weird* thought (and coming from someone who knows almost nothing about Amigas, that could be a *bad* thing...) It looks like there's 1 slot on the 4000T motherboard that might be an ISA slot - is it? If so, will a plain-jane NE2000 compatible network card work on the thing? (I would think there's drivers for something like that... but who knows at this point.) Here's the *even* weirder idea: I have access to an ISA-based PCMCIA kit, which gives you to front-accessible PCMCIA slots. Are there Amiga drivers for any PCMCIA ethernet kit? (I'm also thinking of using it to access Compact Flash drives... ;-) IIRC, I have AmigaOS 3.5 on the thing. I looked it up quite a while ago, but as the box has very little on it WRT software & whatnot, no way to back it up (beyond floppy, and I ain't doin' that), and no easy way (other than burning CDs) to get stuff on it, I've not really been "motivated" enough to diddle with it as of yet. Anyway, just an odd thought... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 13:56:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:56:35 -0600 Subject: Kickstart ROMs (was Re: New Amiga toy) In-Reply-To: <50851.135.196.233.27.1133801032.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <43944B19.3090800@yahoo.co.uk> <50851.135.196.233.27.1133801032.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <43949B73.8080704@oldskool.org> Witchy wrote: > Possibly but getting it on the web is only a future project. The more > immediate problem is getting the boot drive copied successfully since I > can't reinstall onto a new drive without the original processor in the > machine - the Cyberstorm requires you to install the software before the > processor board :o\ OS 3.9 supports accelerators out of the box, so you don't need the software to get the accelerator running. Care to take a guess at why my A4000 is running OS 3.9? Would it have anything to do with the fact that I didn't have the Cyberstorm drivers at the time? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ryan at hack.net Mon Dec 5 14:23:37 2005 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:23:37 -0600 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4394A1C9.8030401@hack.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > I've also got an Amiga 4000T, and I just had a *weird* thought (and > coming from someone who knows almost nothing about Amigas, that could > be a *bad* thing...) Sorry- the ISA slot is just powered, it's not got signals. -Ryan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 5 14:32:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:32:58 +0000 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 5/12/05 19:56, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > It looks like there's 1 slot on the 4000T motherboard that might be an ISA > slot - is it? If so, will a plain-jane NE2000 compatible network card work > on the thing? (I would think there's drivers for something like that... but > who knows at this point.) It IS an ISA slot but you also need a Zorro bridgeboard to activate the pins, on a stock motherboard there's only power and ground lines available to let you run passive things like fans.....I've never seen an ISA bridgeboard :) As for the drivers I guess google is your friend. > Here's the *even* weirder idea: I have access to an ISA-based PCMCIA kit, > which gives you to front-accessible PCMCIA slots. Are there Amiga drivers > for any PCMCIA ethernet kit? (I'm also thinking of using it to access > Compact Flash drives... ;-) Don't the later amiga clones use compact flash etc as storage? Also, the A1200 has a PCMCIA slot that likes 16 bit cards....I was told here last week that certain PCMCIA network cards will work so at least there's some hope. > it up (beyond floppy, and I ain't doin' that), and no easy way (other than > burning CDs) to get stuff on it, I've not really been "motivated" enough to > diddle with it as of yet. Get yourself a copy of Cloanto's Amiga Explorer. It's about $20, runs over a standard serial cable and puts your Amiga into the winduhs Explorer window so you can have instant access to drives and folders etc. I use it to transfer stuff all the time. Www.cloanto.com (no relation to them, etc) Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 14:56:50 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:56:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. Message-ID: <20051205205650.95187.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I've been given an IBM system 60 (model 8560) computer tower, but it won't boot from HD or FD. Actually, it has a "601" error when booting - bad floppy drive. Additionally, the floppy does not spin, although the light does come on. If I had a working floppy, I could boot the Set-up diskette and hopefully configure it to boot off the HD? The floppy drive and interface is non-standard, so I cannot just install a modern-day floppy drive. If anyone has a working floppy drive they'd be willing to donate, I'd be a happy camper. Thanks! Steve __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Dec 5 15:14:39 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:14:39 -0500 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205160533.03a167f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Adrian Graham may have mentioned these words: >.....I've never seen an ISA bridgeboard :) Would one of the '286 or '386 emulator cards also include said bridgeboard? It seems those are more readily available -- it kinda sucks to power a whole 2nd computer (that I'd not plan on using) just to get ISA compatibility, but like I always say: If it's stupid but works, it ain't stupid. ;-) > > (I'm also thinking of using it to access Compact Flash drives... ;-) > > Don't the later amiga clones use compact flash etc as storage? Although they *can* because CF can emulate IDE and (at least) the 4000T has IDE on board, it's not hot-swappable, and you'd have to tear into the case to [un]hook the adapter to the IDE bus. I was rather hoping for something a little easier... ;-) Unless you're talking something later than the 4KT -- that I wouldn't know about. > Also, the >A1200 has a PCMCIA slot that likes 16 bit cards....I was told here last week >that certain PCMCIA network cards will work so at least there's some hope. And that was my hope as well... if I could get PCMCIA working on a 4KT, then *maybe* that would open the door to expansion without trying to find Zorro-based schtuff. >Get yourself a copy of Cloanto's Amiga Explorer. It's about $20, runs over a >standard serial cable and puts your Amiga into the winduhs Explorer window >so you can have instant access to drives and folders etc. I use it to >transfer stuff all the time. > >Www.cloanto.com Hrm... Interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind... Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Dec 5 15:28:14 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:28:14 -0600 Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. In-Reply-To: <20051205205650.95187.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Did you try pulling the floppy, disassembling, and cleaning it? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of steven stengel > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:57 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. > > Hello, > > I've been given an IBM system 60 (model 8560) computer > tower, but it won't boot from HD or FD. > > Actually, it has a "601" error when booting - bad > floppy drive. Additionally, the floppy does not spin, > although the light does come on. > > If I had a working floppy, I could boot the Set-up > diskette and hopefully configure it to boot off the > HD? > > The floppy drive and interface is non-standard, so I > cannot just install a modern-day floppy drive. > > If anyone has a working floppy drive they'd be willing > to donate, I'd be a happy camper. > > Thanks! > Steve > > > > > > __________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 5 16:29:26 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:29:26 -0500 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> <4394A1C9.8030401@hack.net> Message-ID: <006901c5f9eb$5a10fa20$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Brooks" To: Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > I've also got an Amiga 4000T, and I just had a *weird* thought (and > > coming from someone who knows almost nothing about Amigas, that could > > be a *bad* thing...) > > Sorry- the ISA slot is just powered, it's not got signals. > > -Ryan You need a bridgeboard CPU card in the Amiga to work with ISA cards ( I don't think that there is DMA available to the ISA cards either). There is a utility that allows the Amiga side to use a NE2000 compatible network card on the ISA bus as long as you have a bridgeboard setup and running, but I have yet to try it on my A2000 (cheap ISA card with jumpers is installed just have not got around to testing it). I mostly use Amiga Explorer 5.0 (newer versions still being sold in the Amiga Forever package) to send and receive files from my PC server and A2000 at 19,200 BPS serial speeds. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 5 16:51:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:51:33 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:27:50 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Any illustrated online guides for opening up an SE/30? I > > don't like to fiddle around with a screwdriver and hope I > > don't damage things. > > It should be the same as any Compact Mac. The essential tool is > a Mac Cracker, a long shaft Torx T-15 screwdriver (Fry's carries > them under that exact name). Depending on the model, there are > four or five such screws on the back -- two are invariably deep > under the handle, hence the need for the shaft, and two or three > in plain view. Separating the two case halves can be done by > hand, but you can get a "case cracker" (different from a Mac > Cracker) to do the separation if you're worried about this. I > can do it with a flathead screwdriver, but do so very carefully. > > That should get you inside. Mind the CRT, of course. > I just use a long-handled narrow flat blade screwdriver. For as often as I open a compact Mac it works fine. Size the blade by fitting it in the other screws on the case back. For repair shops that open Macs all the time, the torx is important. For 'the rest of us' a cheap regular screwdriver is fine. I 'cracked' an SE Saturday night with my screwdriver (upgraded the 20M drive with an Apple 250M after carefully wrapping and preserving the original.) It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic vacuum' out of your CRT. But since the compact Mac was expressly designed to NOT be user servicible, that meets the requirements of the time. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:01:51 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:01:51 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. In-Reply-To: <20051205205650.95187.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051205205650.95187.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4394C6DF.9070109@gmail.com> steven stengel wrote: > Hello, > > I've been given an IBM system 60 (model 8560) computer > tower, but it won't boot from HD or FD. > > Actually, it has a "601" error when booting - bad > floppy drive. Additionally, the floppy does not spin, > although the light does come on. > > If I had a working floppy, I could boot the Set-up > diskette and hopefully configure it to boot off the > HD? > > The floppy drive and interface is non-standard, so I > cannot just install a modern-day floppy drive. > > If anyone has a working floppy drive they'd be willing > to donate, I'd be a happy camper. Actually, it is a standard floppy drive. The easiest way of dealing with it is to make an adapter. The only difference between a PS/2 floppy and a PC floppy is that the ribbon carries signal+power on the PS/2. Peace... Sridhar From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 5 16:59:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:59:15 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051205175915.330431a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 02:08:13 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > Did anybody figure out a way to get around seganet so these > > games can be hosted some other place? > > Nope. It will take reverse-engineering the protocol to get it > work, but more importantly it will take finding an ISP that you > can call to get PPP working. The major dial-up providers (AOL, > netzero, etc.) require custom software, to my knowledge; they > aren't straight-up SLIP or PPP. > Plenty of major ISP providers can be accessed with plain vanilla PPP. I know Earthlink can. I used to use it to connect my Handspring Visor to the net a few years back (with a plain old modem.) Any ISP that lets people dial up with the freenixes (Linux, NetBSD, etc.) can be used. Most small local providers work fine, too. > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command > $150-$200 on epay. Can't one just connect it through ethernet? (I don't know much about the Dreamcast) From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 17:06:10 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:06:10 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4394C7E2.7080301@oldskool.org> While I value both your advice, you're both scaring me. :-) I think I'll leave my SE/30 as is and just blissfully ignore the mystery DB9 female port on the back. Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:27:50 -0800 (PST) > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>>Any illustrated online guides for opening up an SE/30? I >>>don't like to fiddle around with a screwdriver and hope I >>>don't damage things. >> >>It should be the same as any Compact Mac. The essential tool is >>a Mac Cracker, a long shaft Torx T-15 screwdriver (Fry's carries >>them under that exact name). Depending on the model, there are >>four or five such screws on the back -- two are invariably deep >>under the handle, hence the need for the shaft, and two or three >>in plain view. Separating the two case halves can be done by >>hand, but you can get a "case cracker" (different from a Mac >>Cracker) to do the separation if you're worried about this. I >>can do it with a flathead screwdriver, but do so very carefully. >> >>That should get you inside. Mind the CRT, of course. >> > > > I just use a long-handled narrow flat blade screwdriver. For as > often as I open a compact Mac it works fine. Size the blade by > fitting it in the other screws on the case back. For repair shops > that open Macs all the time, the torx is important. For 'the rest > of us' a cheap regular screwdriver is fine. I 'cracked' an SE > Saturday night with my screwdriver (upgraded the 20M drive with an > Apple 250M after carefully wrapping and preserving the original.) > > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > vacuum' out of your CRT. > > But since the compact Mac was expressly designed to NOT be user > servicible, that meets the requirements of the time. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 5 17:07:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:07:55 -0600 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: <006901c5f9eb$5a10fa20$bddb1d18@game> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> <4394A1C9.8030401@hack.net> <006901c5f9eb$5a10fa20$bddb1d18@game> Message-ID: <4394C84B.7060504@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > I mostly use Amiga Explorer 5.0 (newer versions still being sold in the > Amiga Forever package) to send and receive files from my PC server and A2000 > at 19,200 BPS serial speeds. Same here, but at 57600. Increase the buffer size to 4K and it should work okay as long as you've got a 16550 (or better) on both ends. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 5 16:37:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:37:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: <43938C2E.3000708@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 5, 5 00:39:10 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> Random failure of the weekend was a UC3844 IC in a switchmode power supply - > >> with a very loud bang, the entire top of the chip blew off, but there's no > >> *obvious* sign of any other failure within the supply. > > > > This deos not mean there are no other component failurs. This sort of > > thing is very common actially. > > I must have been lucky... all the ones I've had to fix before have had failed > in other ways... You have been very lucky. I have never had a chopper transistor fail open-circuit. SMPSU problems tend to come in 4 categories for me : Startup resistor open-circuit Chopper transistor shorted, many other components burnt out as a result High ESR capacitors Others. > >> Shame Sun don't publish schematics! > > > > It wouldn't do you a lot of good if they did, the supply is almost > > certainly bought-in and there wouldn't be a schematic in the service > > manual anyway. But it can't be that hard to draw out, can it? > > It's not *that* simple, because this is such a compact unit. There are a > couple of vertically-mounted boards soldered on the main PCB. One contains the Generally (for example the Zneith supply in my ACW), I desolder all daughterboards and treat them seperately. I must admit it's a bit nerve-wracking when you take a working PSU apart (i.e. desolder daughterboards and coils, which will test as dead short on an ohmmeter and confuse me when tracing connections), then put the bits back in and power it up for the first time. I'm always worried I'll have forgotten to solder some connection and the result will be the thing blowing apart. TOuch wood, this hasn't happeend yet :-) > dead UC3844 and holds the circuitry that sits between the high voltage input > side and low voltage output. The other board seems to be purely on the HV DC > side and has a few surface-mount resistors on it, a small transistor, and a 16 > pin IC labelled UC385x (there's a splodge of dye or something on it so I can't > read the last number - doubtless it'll be easy to find via google when I come > to look it up anyway). > > Then there are three large L-shaped heatsinks on the board which wrap over the > top of the board components, and then another large slab heatsink is screwed > to those. > > The slab heatsink comes off easily enough, but method of PSU construction is > to bolt heatsinked components to the L-shaped heatsinks *before* soldering > them in place. There's no access to undo the transistor / diode heatsink > clamps without desoldering half the board. Component level repair was Can't you desolder all the transistor and diode connectuons and pull the heatsink out? That's what I would do (and how it was presumably assembled). > obviously not on Sun's list :) Alas not... > > I can trace stuff with a continuity meter, common sense, and a visual on the I find the continuity test a lot better than my eye at following a track (particularly on a board with many find tracks covered with soldermask). But watch out for anything that will appear as a short on your meter -- inductors, transformer windings, low value resistors (often used for current sensing in SMPSUs), etc. Unoslder these (at least at one end) before you start or you will go insane. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 5 17:03:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:03:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Plotter In-Reply-To: <000801c5f967$083a18a0$03e19c44@esper.com> from "Jimmy D" at Dec 5, 5 01:42:14 am Message-ID: > > Thanks Tony for the reply. > > I'm using a 350mhz PC, Win98, Corel Draw V8. I draw vector images, and = > always plot from print preview. I don't type any coordinates in, just = > send the image. > > I was doing more snooping around the HP manuals, and between them, found = > this: > HP-GL/2 units of measure > > The plotter can use plotter units or user units > "Under default conditions, the unit uses plotter-units" > > 1 plotter-unit=3D0.025mm(0.00098inch) OK, about '1 thou' for UK engineers. Sounds reasonable (this would be the reslution that the headware is capable of) > 40 plotter-units=3D1mm > 1016 plotter-units=3D1 inch > 3.39 plotter-units=3D1 dot at 300 DPI OK so far. That much seems reasonable (based on simple arithmetic) > > Here is a chart that was with the PS info I posted before: > parameter_______format______range________________________default > length integer 0 to 8388607 plotter-units = > depends on media size > width integer 0 to 8388607 plotter-units = > depends on media size. > > These manuals were scanned and saved in Acrobat reader. Print quality = > seems good > but maybe there's a decimal I'm not seeing??? Well, as the 'format' is given as 'integer' there won't be a decimal point. An integer, of course, is a whole number. > 1016 into 8388607 is 8256.50... 12 into 8256.5 is 688. > 688 feet? I'm missing something here. It did say plotter-units, not user = > units. Yes, I get that too. Sounds far too large. Maybe that's the limits of the internal control electronics (that is, the plotter will accept vaules that large without giving an error), even though they are phyiscially ridiculous. > Oh well thanks again. > As regards sending the PS command, it's not uncommon for software packages to start a plot by sending various commands to return the plotter to the power-on default state and/or set up the values needed by that program. While this makes a lot of sense for most users (it means, for example, that if you run one program which sets the plotter up one way, a second program will not get confused by those settings), it is going to be a right pain for you. If you managed to send the PS command in some way, it would be quite likely your graphics program would undo its effects. The way I would start to tackle this problem (namely connect a communications analyser between the PC and the plotter and see just what is sent at the start of each plot) is not going to be applicable to you, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 5 17:06:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:06:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 4, 5 11:27:50 pm Message-ID: > > > Any illustrated online guides for opening up an SE/30? I don't like to > > fiddle around with a screwdriver and hope I don't damage things. > > It should be the same as any Compact Mac. The essential tool is a Mac > Cracker, a long shaft Torx T-15 screwdriver (Fry's carries them under that Alternatively, the Xcellite System 99 TX15 blade + extension is OK for this. > exact name). Depending on the model, there are four or five such screws on > the back -- two are invariably deep under the handle, hence the need for > the shaft, and two or three in plain view. Separating the two case halves On the Mac+ (and older machines), one of the screws in under the battery cover. Unclip this and if you see a Torx screw there, take it out. As you said, 2 are in the handle, and the othe 2 are at the ends of the connector panel. I generally find it best to put the machine face down. Then by pressing on the battery and the connectors you can pull the case off upwards. > can be done by hand, but you can get a "case cracker" (different from a > Mac Cracker) to do the separation if you're worried about this. I can do it > with a flathead screwdriver, but do so very carefully. > > That should get you inside. Mind the CRT, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 5 17:22:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 5, 5 05:51:33 pm Message-ID: > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > vacuum' out of your CRT. There are good eleetronic reasons for mounting the video output stage close to the CRT base (basically to reduce the capacitance of the connections to the CRT cathode). You'll find most high resolution monitors have a PCB hung on the back of the CRT. The Mac+, etc, just has a socket connector on the back of the CRT, all the circuitry is on the analogue board (PSU and monitor circuity basically). But there are connectors you have to unplug to remoe the digital board (processor, mrmory, etc) which are a tight fit and so positions that if you're pulling on them and they come loose suddenly, you will hit the CRT neck. And yes, people (not me this time...) have cracked CRTs doing just that. > > But since the compact Mac was expressly designed to NOT be user > servicible, that meets the requirements of the time. I am not going to enter into another flameware about Apple designs....Suffice it to say, both mechanically and electronically, they are well down my list. -tony From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Mon Dec 5 17:24:27 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:24:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <51117.207.71.246.177.1133825067.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> On Mon, December 5, 2005 2:51 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > vacuum' out of your CRT. I have the Larry Pina mac repair books and that's one of first things to do - after popping the back case, remove the little board from the back of the crt so you don't jostle it by accident. Jeff From pechter at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 17:59:40 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:59:40 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051130142730.93157.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051130142730.93157.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4394D46C.2070600@gmail.com> Chris M wrote: >supposedly software written for even the later 680x0 >Macs would run on the earliest ones (most of the time, >given enough ram, etc). Of course the PowerPC models >had to emulate 680x0 code, so software written >specifically for them had to have a PPC to run on. > The compact Macs were nifty, cute as all get out. But >the line started to become interesting when they got >some color...RIGHT ON! II/x/fx/cx/ci. I want a IIfx. >So by that logic, the ci is arguably the most >interesting. The most collectible is the SE30. > > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Music Unlimited >Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. >http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > > From damosan at comcast.net Mon Dec 5 18:32:15 2005 From: damosan at comcast.net (Damond Walker) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:32:15 -0500 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <438F1942.4070305@attglobal.net> References: <200511300623.jAU6MuBo088511@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051130155253.GA97959@outpost.timeguy.com> <438F1942.4070305@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <121FD4F2-5018-45EF-8F4C-B7BFD2ABEA4D@comcast.net> On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > > later versions of OS/400 and AS/400s have the capability to use a > PC as a terminal, with special software. A modern AS/400 is useful. They can run Domino if need be and put to use as a webserver or email box. If you're an RPG nut then those older '400s may be of use. Damo From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 18:51:58 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:51:58 +0000 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? Message-ID: Hi list, You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a dumpster a few months ago. They've been stored away safely since then, and now I'd like to get started testing them so that I can get them sold. Tony recommended running the power supplies on a dummy load to make sure that none of them are duds. I have a handy bag of Big Resistors that I can make dummy loads out of, however, (in an 86B at least, I've not been into the 85s yet) there's a 10-conductor cable coming out of the PSU and I've no idea what sort of load it might want to see and on which pins. Googling for the service manual hasn't been productive. Can anyone advise? I have the basic tools (multimeter etc., and some cantankerous old oscilloscopes) but don't have any experience doing this sort of thing. Thanks, Ed. From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Dec 5 19:07:50 2005 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:07:50 -0600 Subject: Square D Programmer In-Reply-To: <200512060036.jB60asq1087585@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512060036.jB60asq1087585@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4394E466.3030005@centurytel.net> Anyone know where I can find more information on this? More Info Suitcase size portable with dedicated firmware to program PLC's from Square D Green screen display, fair keyboard, 6809 CPU , tape drive(no tapes), motherboard with four cards, 86(?) contact double-sided bus.(EXORbus?), 16 6116 chips on a memory card also daughter card with some other chips unreadable, another memory card with 8 6116 chips and 4 eproms labeled crt u-2x(3-6), CPU card with HD6809P, two 6850PDS, one 6840PDS, four EPROMs labeled CRT IC-xx(28-31), video card with 6845, 6821, 4 eproms labeled crt u-xx(27-30), one eprom labeled 30606-205-50 and the system crystal 12.000 MHZ and many glue chips on every board. From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 19:08:48 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:08:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. In-Reply-To: <4394C6DF.9070109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051206010848.8413.qmail@web34110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > steven stengel wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I've been given an IBM system 60 (model 8560) > computer > > tower, but it won't boot from HD or FD. > > > > Actually, it has a "601" error when booting - bad > > floppy drive. Additionally, the floppy does not > spin, > > although the light does come on. > > > > If I had a working floppy, I could boot the Set-up > > diskette and hopefully configure it to boot off > the > > HD? > > > > The floppy drive and interface is non-standard, so > I > > cannot just install a modern-day floppy drive. > > > > If anyone has a working floppy drive they'd be > willing > > to donate, I'd be a happy camper. > > Actually, it is a standard floppy drive. The > easiest way of dealing > with it is to make an adapter. The only difference > between a PS/2 > floppy and a PC floppy is that the ribbon carries > signal+power on the PS/2. > > Peace... Sridhar > Hmm, I'll see if I can find some pin-outs... __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Dec 5 19:51:25 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:51:25 -0500 Subject: NEC 3FGx monitor schematic? Message-ID: I have an old NEC 3FGx monitor with very little use (belonged to my parents who were not "computer people") that had a beautiful clear picture until recently. There's probably a bad electrolytic cap somewhere, since it now has horizontal problems (small dim display, lack of horiz sync) until it is left on for 20-30 minutes. Can anyone point me to a schematic to make it easier to repair without "shotgunning" caps blindly? thanks Charles From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Dec 5 19:52:21 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:52:21 -0600 Subject: Opening a classic Mac Message-ID: <056f0b70cc0744b5885099d1ec8a1335@valleyimplants.com> Pretty easy- long handled T-15 to remove the two screws under the handle and two at the lower back. I wouldn't use the screwdriver-you can scar the case and it's usually not necessary. Put the Mac facedown on a soft surface, lift it a little by the back and shake- that has always done it for me. Another thing that can work is one of the "stationary clips" with the round spring (not the ones with the blued spring steel shaped a bit like a triangular prism). Once you have the cover off, worm your fingers in and disconnect the power, SCSI, floppy et al before pulling out the board. The SE&SE/30 expansion cards are two piece, you should be able to disconnect the cable and remove before pulling the mainboard. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Dec 5 19:53:54 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:53:54 -0600 Subject: DEC firmware Message-ID: At least some of the Alphas have a failsafe jumper & disk, too, that allows you to recover from failed flashes. Set the jumper, put the disk in, and you can try again. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 5 20:46:18 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:46:18 -0800 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512051846.18330.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 05 December 2005 16:51, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi list, > > You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a > dumpster a few months ago. > > They've been stored away safely since then, and now I'd like to get > started testing them so that I can get them sold. Tony recommended > running the power supplies on a dummy load to make sure that none of > them are duds. I have a handy bag of Big Resistors that I can make > dummy loads out of, however, (in an 86B at least, I've not been into > the 85s yet) there's a 10-conductor cable coming out of the PSU and > I've no idea what sort of load it might want to see and on which pins. Get the service manuals, etc. off of the DVD produced by "The Museum of HP Calculators": http://www.hpmuseum.org/ There's lots of wonderful infomation on options, Journal articles, etc. on the DVD. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 5 20:59:40 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 18:59:40 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> References: <200511302219.RAA16754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200511301431460877.1990ED46@10.0.0.252> <438F879B.2000902@oldskool.org> <200512011551360571.01774D72@10.0.0.252> <438FAD49.3090006@oldskool.org> <20051201181753.V47897@shell.lmi.net> <200512012157150432.02C60C59@10.0.0.252> <20051201223941.P62602@shell.lmi.net> <439015C4.8000401@oldskool.org> <200512020925200687.053C0218@10.0.0.252> <4390DBF7.5080205@oldskool.org> <200512050621.BAA15423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4393DFD5.3030609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4393E49E.1070708@oldskool.org> <006c01c5f96b$2e461950$bddb1d18@game> <4393F56D.90105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4394FE9C.4060304@deltasoft.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Did anybody figure out a way to get around seganet so these games can be >> hosted some other place? > > > Nope. It will take reverse-engineering the protocol to get it work, but > more importantly it will take finding an ISP that you can call to get > PPP working. The major dial-up providers (AOL, netzero, etc.) require > custom software, to my knowledge; they aren't straight-up SLIP or PPP. > > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command $150-$200 > on epay. I bet you'd have luck getting a "real" PPP connect via Speakeasy. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 5 21:04:41 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:04:41 -0800 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <43948EDB.6090304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43940DAC.23111.41DB786A@localhost> <43941623.3000005@brothom.nl> <43948EDB.6090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4394FFC9.2020102@deltasoft.com> My best friend got his start in computing with a SYM-1 and I'd like to get him one for Christmas. Does anyone on the list have one for sale? tnx! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. From alanp at snowmoose.com Mon Dec 5 21:25:26 2005 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:25:26 -0800 Subject: DECsystem-10 reference card scan Message-ID: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> I have a scanned copy of the DECsystem-10 reference card on my web site. I put it up there for someone to grab and I don't have enough diskspace on my site to leave it up (and it is not in bitsavers.org's format, so they don't want it). I'll be deleting it from my website in about a week. If anyone wants it, grab it while you can. The URL is http://www.snowmoose.com/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf. The file is about 1.5M. alan From brushman at esper.com Mon Dec 5 22:14:23 2005 From: brushman at esper.com (Jimmy D) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:14:23 -0500 Subject: Hp plotter Message-ID: <000801c5fa1b$8adfa220$77e19c44@esper.com> Tony, thanks for the help. It's more than I knew before. I can be persistent, in fact a friend of mine is looking up "communications analiser" as we speak. He too uses an old HP. Somewhere, I may find the answers. I've got friends that are very much into computers. The more I think about it, the longer the list grows! One for instance had me paint "free recycling" on the front of his computer store. That sounds like something with real possibilities for the people on this board. He gets shipping pallets full of the old stuff. Got to be something interesting in there. How about this: you just go to a sign maker, have them cut you some vinyl letters that say "free computer recycling, www..." maybe a ph number. Put the lettering on the back window of you vehicle, and bingo! Old stuff. Find out what they have, if you're not interested, give the location of a different place that takes it. In fact, to show my gratitude for this board, I'll send said lettering FREE to the first 3 people that ask for it. :) Just havin' fun (but the offer is valid), thanks again. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 5 22:25:40 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 20:25:40 -0800 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:32 PM +0000 12/5/05, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 5/12/05 19:56, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > >> It looks like there's 1 slot on the 4000T motherboard that might be an ISA >> slot - is it? If so, will a plain-jane NE2000 compatible network card work >> on the thing? (I would think there's drivers for something like that... but >> who knows at this point.) > >It IS an ISA slot but you also need a Zorro bridgeboard to activate the >pins, on a stock motherboard there's only power and ground lines available >to let you run passive things like fans.....I've never seen an ISA >bridgeboard :) As for the drivers I guess google is your friend. In this case, Ethan Dicks might be the person you want to talk to. I think he owns the rights to the main Bridgeboard (or was it the only bridgeboard product). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 5 22:31:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 23:31:39 -0500 Subject: Uses for AS400 9040? In-Reply-To: <121FD4F2-5018-45EF-8F4C-B7BFD2ABEA4D@comcast.net> References: <200511300623.jAU6MuBo088511@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20051130155253.GA97959@outpost.timeguy.com> <438F1942.4070305@attglobal.net> <121FD4F2-5018-45EF-8F4C-B7BFD2ABEA4D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4395142B.5050707@gmail.com> Damond Walker wrote: > > On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:39 AM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > >> >> later versions of OS/400 and AS/400s have the capability to use a PC >> as a terminal, with special software. > > > A modern AS/400 is useful. They can run Domino if need be and put to > use as a webserver or email box. They're pretty good for running DB2 too. And the really new ones can run AIX. Peace... Sridhar From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 5 22:34:03 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:34:03 -0500 Subject: NEC 3FGx monitor schematic? References: Message-ID: <000f01c5fa1e$4a279c80$0100a8c0@screamer> Try cleaning all the accumulated crud off the high voltage section. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 8:51 PM Subject: NEC 3FGx monitor schematic? >I have an old NEC 3FGx monitor with very little use (belonged to my > parents who were not "computer people") that had a beautiful clear > picture until recently. There's probably a bad electrolytic cap > somewhere, since it now has horizontal problems (small dim display, > lack of horiz sync) until it is left on for 20-30 minutes. > Can anyone point me to a schematic to make it easier to repair without > "shotgunning" caps blindly? > > thanks > Charles > From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 5 22:48:34 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 23:48:34 -0500 Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. Message-ID: <01C5F9F6.D1E5DA60@MSE_D03> I've got some PS/2 FDs & HDs somewhere; when (if) I find 'em, I'll let you know. mike (in Toronto) ---------Original Message--------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 12:56:50 -0800 (PST) From: steven stengel Subject: Wanted: IBM PS/2 system 60 floppy drive. If anyone has a working floppy drive they'd be willing to donate, I'd be a happy camper. Thanks! Steve From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 5 23:04:13 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:04:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... Message-ID: <20051206050413.5201.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > In this case, Ethan Dicks might be the person you want to talk > to. I think he owns the rights to the main Bridgeboard (or was > it the only bridgeboard product). The GoldenGate II bridge card, I have one I got as 'scrap' but all the socketed (PAL) chips were pulled. Unfortunately the GoldenGate II lacks one signal needed to run some 16 bit cards in 16 bit mode so cards like 3Com 3C5x9xx won't work properly. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 5 23:15:59 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:15:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Plotter Message-ID: <20051206051600.45590.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> 1016 into 8388607 is 8256.50... 12 into 8256.5 is 688. >> 688 feet? I'm missing something here. It did say plotter-units, >> not user = units. > Yes, I get that too. Sounds far too large. Maybe that's the limits > of the internal control electronics (that is, the plotter will accept > vaules that large without giving an error), even though they are > phyiscially ridiculous. Don't forget continuous roll plotters can plot images that are only physically limited by the media length, (I can't remember if the one at Uni was HP or not but it was a huge A0 wide roll type) in that case an image of more than 100 feet long is not unreasonable (e.g. hot air balloon panel patterns) and 688 feet doesn't seem quite that big. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 5 23:22:05 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:22:05 -0500 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <4394FFC9.2020102@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <004201c5fa25$00f753f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I want an original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp Pocket Diary (circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:05 PM To: General at deltasoft.com; Discussion at deltasoft.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Need a SYM-1... My best friend got his start in computing with a SYM-1 and I'd like to get him one for Christmas. Does anyone on the list have one for sale? tnx! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 5 23:35:54 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:35:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: DECsystem-10 reference card scan In-Reply-To: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> References: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <200512060537.AAA01382@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The URL is http://www.snowmoose.com/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf. The file > is about 1.5M. ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/docs/DEC/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf, and (unlike Alan) I have no plans to take it down. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 5 23:55:39 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:55:39 -0500 Subject: Need a SYM-1... References: <004201c5fa25$00f753f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <00e601c5fa29$afcf03b0$bddb1d18@game> Is Sanata (AKA Sellam) on the list anymore? ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:22 AM Subject: RE: Need a SYM-1... > We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I want an > original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp Pocket Diary > (circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:05 PM > To: General at deltasoft.com; Discussion at deltasoft.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Need a SYM-1... > > My best friend got his start in computing with a SYM-1 and I'd like to get > him one for Christmas. Does anyone on the list have one for sale? > > tnx! > > g. > > -- > > "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" > Proud owner of 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. > > From news at computercollector.com Tue Dec 6 00:00:32 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:00:32 -0500 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <00e601c5fa29$afcf03b0$bddb1d18@game> Message-ID: <004701c5fa2a$607e0850$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Not officially. But it wouldn't surprise me if he were lurking under an assumed identity. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need a SYM-1... Is Sanata (AKA Sellam) on the list anymore? ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:22 AM Subject: RE: Need a SYM-1... > We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I want an > original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp Pocket Diary > (circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:05 PM > To: General at deltasoft.com; Discussion at deltasoft.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Need a SYM-1... > > My best friend got his start in computing with a SYM-1 and I'd like to get > him one for Christmas. Does anyone on the list have one for sale? > > tnx! > > g. > > -- > > "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" > Proud owner of 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only of its kind. > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 6 00:18:22 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:18:22 -0800 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <004201c5fa25$00f753f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004201c5fa25$00f753f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200512052218220717.0133197F@10.0.0.252> On 12/6/2005 at 12:22 AM 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I want >an >original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp Pocket Diary >(circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) How early? I've got a Grid 1040, which is definitely pre-Tandy. Has a NEC V30 in it, which gives better battery life than the original 8086. 20MB Prarietech 2.5" HD loaded with Grid's variant of MS-DOS. Not a bad little box. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Tue Dec 6 00:31:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:31:04 -0500 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <200512052218220717.0133197F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004801c5fa2e$a2f0d920$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Thanks, but by "early" I mean a Compass 1101. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 1:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Need a SYM-1... On 12/6/2005 at 12:22 AM 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I >want an original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp >Pocket Diary (circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) How early? I've got a Grid 1040, which is definitely pre-Tandy. Has a NEC V30 in it, which gives better battery life than the original 8086. 20MB Prarietech 2.5" HD loaded with Grid's variant of MS-DOS. Not a bad little box. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 6 00:30:16 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 01:30:16 -0500 Subject: DECsystem-10 reference card scan In-Reply-To: <200512060537.AAA01382@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> <200512060537.AAA01382@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200512060130.16514.pat@computer-refuge.org> der Mouse declared on Tuesday 06 December 2005 00:35: > > The URL is http://www.snowmoose.com/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf. The file > > is about 1.5M. > > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/docs/DEC/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf, and > (unlike Alan) I have no plans to take it down. And another mirrored copy at: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/pdp10/DEC-10-XSRCA-B-D.pdf living right alongside my bitsavers mirror. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 6 01:59:19 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 07:59:19 -0000 Subject: For users of Telenex / AR Datascopes... In-Reply-To: <200512041554510141.8586E8C4@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <003f01c5fa3a$f7828360$5b01a8c0@pc1> Bruce Lane wrote: > This is a note to owners of the Telenex / Atlantic Research > 'Interview' 7000 and 8000 series datascopes (sometimes known as > serial data analyzers), particularly the 7000, 8700 Turbo, and 8800 > Turbo series. If these are the same as the Interview 7000/8000 series (which I guess they are since the manuals do say Atlantic Research on the front) then I have three or four volumes of the Technical Manuals scanned. I can dig these out and upload them if someone has a site that could make them available. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Dec 6 04:36:29 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:36:29 +0100 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <004701c5fa2a$607e0850$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <00e601c5fa29$afcf03b0$bddb1d18@game> Message-ID: <439577BD.685.4761C8ED@localhost> Am 6 Dec 2005 1:00 meinte 'Computer Collector Newslette: > On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 12:56 AM >> Is Sanata (AKA Sellam) on the list anymore? > Not officially. But it wouldn't surprise me if he were lurking under an > assumed identity. Naa, not even that. Beeing a new dad changed quite some of his priorities. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Dec 6 04:36:29 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:36:29 +0100 Subject: Need a SYM-1... In-Reply-To: <004201c5fa25$00f753f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <4394FFC9.2020102@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <439577BD.31446.4761C9A9@localhost> Am 6 Dec 2005 0:22 meinte 'Computer Collector Newslette: > On Behalf Of Gene Buckle >> My best friend got his start in computing with a SYM-1 and I'd like to get >> him one for Christmas. Does anyone on the list have one for sale? > We're posting holiday wish lists? Cool! This year for Chanukah, I want an > original Grid Systems laptop (circa early 1980s) and a Sharp Pocket Diary > (circa 1975, and I'm not sure if it actually exists.) Too bad, I just gave one away to a friend of mine ... you should have stated your wish just 3 weeks ago. After all, it's just a PeeCee. H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 6 06:02:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:02:34 +0000 Subject: DECsystem-10 reference card scan In-Reply-To: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> References: <439504A6.4080703@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <43957DDA.5090109@yahoo.co.uk> Alan Perry wrote: > > I have a scanned copy of the DECsystem-10 reference card on my web site. > I put it up there for someone to grab and I don't have enough diskspace > on my site to leave it up (and it is not in bitsavers.org's format, so > they don't want it). I'll be deleting it from my website in about a > week. If anyone wants it, grab it while you can. Immediate thought was to see if Paul Allen's pdp10 website was a sensible place to host it, but the site (http://pdp10.paulallen.com) seems to be dead - anyone know if this is permanent? cheers J. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 08:23:25 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:23:25 +0000 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: <200512051846.18330.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200512051846.18330.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/05, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Monday 05 December 2005 16:51, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > They've been stored away safely since then, and now I'd like to get > > started testing them so that I can get them sold. Tony recommended > > running the power supplies on a dummy load to make sure that none of > > them are duds. I have a handy bag of Big Resistors that I can make > > dummy loads out of, however, (in an 86B at least, I've not been into > > the 85s yet) there's a 10-conductor cable coming out of the PSU and > > I've no idea what sort of load it might want to see and on which pins. > > Get the service manuals, etc. off of the DVD produced by "The Museum of HP > Calculators": Sadly I can't afford to spend any money on these systems. I didn't rescue them to keep - I rescued them to move them on to new homes. I'm not averse to spending the time to test them before said rehoming, but I can't spend any Cash Money(tm) on them. Ed. From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 6 09:12:39 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 10:12:39 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> I've got a system with a couple large electrolytics that hasn't been powered up in a number of years. I have a 5A Variac. What's the typical procedure for the reformation process? Remove all cards (or maybe leave a junk card in for load?), start the Variac at 0V, increment by 10V every so often? How long per step, and/or is a different step suggested? I've seen lots of people say "you'll need to reform the caps, first", but never a prodecure for it. --jc From bob at jfcl.com Tue Dec 6 10:35:54 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:35:54 -0800 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> JC, AFAIK the issue with reforming old electrolytics is that the caps will have very high leakage currents until they reform. The goal is to limit the power dissipation of the cap to something low enough that it won't vent (or explode!) until it's recovered. Lots of people use Variacs for this purpose and they'll certainly do the job, but they don't give you any way to measure the leakage current. I prefer the simple technique of putting a light bulb in series with the AC side of the supply - when it's bright, the current is high and as it gradually dims and goes out, the current is low. > maybe leave a junk card in for load?) If it's a linear supply then it's probably happy without a load, and there's no sense in wasting even a junk board. If it's a switching supply then it depends on the design, but most likely it will require some kind of load on at least some of the outputs to maintain regulation. Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J.C. Wren > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:13 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Cap reformation question > > > I've got a system with a couple large electrolytics that > hasn't been > powered up in a number of years. I have a 5A Variac. What's the > typical procedure for the reformation process? Remove all cards (or > maybe leave a junk card in for load?), start the Variac at > 0V, increment > by 10V every so often? How long per step, and/or is a different step > suggested? > > I've seen lots of people say "you'll need to reform the caps, > first", but never a prodecure for it. > > --jc > > From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Dec 6 11:10:40 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:10:40 -0500 Subject: CMD (Commodore) D9090 Hard Drive Issue Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20051206113957.0251ee78@mail.degnanco.net> Hello. I have a Commodore "new" D9090. I am experiencing some symptoms that I hope someone can help me diagnose. I don't have the manual for the D9090. I have verified that everything is plugged in, but I have not done any electrical tests. The drive was working earlier this month and then was shipped to me. When I received the drive initially it did not work at all, but pressing lightly on some of the socketed chips to be sure they are making proper contact got me at least to the point I am now. It appears that the package was dropped or vibrated during shipping. I leave the unit powered up for a good ten minutes before turning on my known-to-work Commodore B128. The expected drive initialization lights flash and the system sits waiting for action while the top light shines green, the bottom light is off. Here are the things I have tried: ------------------------- ?ds$ - returns CBM DOS 3, etc. message ------------------------- open 15,8,15 print#15,"i0" [top and bottom lights shine green, drive sounds spinning, never completes.] close 15 NOTE: The first time I run these commands the READY prompt returns to the screen and I can continue working, even though the drive lights perpetually shine green and the drive spins. If I do repeat this set of commands however I will freeze up the computer and I am forced to hard boot the B128. ------------------------- header "degnan9090", d0, i01 The "are you sure?" message appears and I can initiate the drive format. Both lights shine green. The B128 freezes up. Because I have a Rev B ROM, I expect that it will take less than 3 hours to format the drive. In my testing I finally aborted after 10 hours. I know from experience that when a header command is issued, control returns to the B128 (or whatever computer) while the formatting is happening on the drive. ------------------------- dcleard0 - does not appear to move the drive heads. ------------------------- It seems like the heads are not moving and that's the problem. I do not hear "head moving noises" Any suggestions? Bill D Wilmington, DE here are some pics: From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 6 12:13:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 10:13:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <200512061813.KAA29325@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi My experience with the variac is that it is too uncontrolled. The idea of using a light is good but what wattage should one use. Remember that the light has quite a bit of positive temperature coefficient. When cold the resistance is a lot less then when glowing. If it is a switcher, you shouldn't use a variac at all. You should disconnect one lead of the capacitor and put a series resistor to a power supply. I recommend using a voltage on the supply of at least 50% of the rated voltage and a resistor that if the cap is shorted will supply a maximum of 10 ma to a low voltage cap that is about 1.5 inch diameter and about 3 inches long. Smaller caps should have less current. Many computer capacitors may draw more that 10 ma as lower voltage, higher capacitance caps. If after 10 or so hours at 10 ma, you don't see any change, increase the current some. For high voltage capacitors, you should limit to about 1 or 2 ma. Even on a linear supply, I recommend disconnecting the capacitor and bringing it up with a resistor and supply. Switchers can blow up with too low a voltage. Most newer supplies will be OK but you won't get good forming of the output capacitors since the supply will remain off until the voltage is high enough to start the switcher. This usually means full voltage to the output capacitors. For this and other reasons, I still recommend isolating one of the leads of the cap and using the limited supply. >From: "Robert Armstrong" > >JC, > > AFAIK the issue with reforming old electrolytics is that the caps will >have very high leakage currents until they reform. The goal is to limit the >power dissipation of the cap to something low enough that it won't vent (or >explode!) until it's recovered. > > Lots of people use Variacs for this purpose and they'll certainly do the >job, but they don't give you any way to measure the leakage current. I >prefer the simple technique of putting a light bulb in series with the AC >side of the supply - when it's bright, the current is high and as it >gradually dims and goes out, the current is low. > >> maybe leave a junk card in for load?) > > If it's a linear supply then it's probably happy without a load, and >there's no sense in wasting even a junk board. > > If it's a switching supply then it depends on the design, but most likely >it will require some kind of load on at least some of the outputs to >maintain regulation. > >Bob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J.C. Wren >> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:13 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Cap reformation question >> >> >> I've got a system with a couple large electrolytics that >> hasn't been >> powered up in a number of years. I have a 5A Variac. What's the >> typical procedure for the reformation process? Remove all cards (or >> maybe leave a junk card in for load?), start the Variac at >> 0V, increment >> by 10V every so often? How long per step, and/or is a different step >> suggested? >> >> I've seen lots of people say "you'll need to reform the caps, >> first", but never a prodecure for it. >> >> --jc >> >> > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 6 13:01:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:01:28 +1300 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 5/12/05 19:56, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > > > It looks like there's 1 slot on the 4000T motherboard that might be an ISA > > slot - is it? Yes, but as many others have observed, it has power only, no signals. It's like the ISA slots in an A2000 or A3000, but really only designed for a single-slot bridge card. > > If so, will a plain-jane NE2000 compatible network card work > > on the thing? (I would think there's drivers for something like that... but > > who knows at this point.) Not without some way to attach it to Zorro space. > It IS an ISA slot but you also need a Zorro bridgeboard to activate the > pins... Right, like a Commodore A2286 card. > I've never seen an ISA bridgeboard :) What, like the GG2 Bus+ (GoldenGate II Bridgecard)? http://www.penguincentral.com/GG2/ I have to admit they haven't been popular in a few years, but I still have new ones on the shelf. The largest drawback these days is that because of how cacheing was implemented between the Zorro bus and most '060 cards, they don't play nice in fully-loaded machines. The GG2 Bus+ lives in Zorro II memory space (the 8MB chunk) to be able to map ISA memory space over to the 68K in the Amiga. Because C= intended for memory to live there, it's cached by default on machines like the A3000 and A4000. While there are workarounds with C= processors (Enforcer disables cacheing in Zorro II space because C= expect you to be using 32-bit RAM), by the time the '060s started coming out, things got more difficult due to the design of the '060 cards. It's possible to write an app to do the same, but I don't think anyone ever did. So personally, I only recommend the GG2 Bus+ to stock A2000, A3000, and A4000 owners. I can't recommend it to anyone who has or who wants an '060-based machine. Back in the day, those people could afford an A2065 or Ariadne anyway, so they weren't my prime customers. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 6 13:20:06 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:20:06 -0500 Subject: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051205144546.03a165a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002c01c5fa9a$117adf60$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Hrm... Weird Amiga Idea... > On 12/6/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 5/12/05 19:56, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > > > > > It looks like there's 1 slot on the 4000T motherboard that might be an ISA > > > slot - is it? > > Yes, but as many others have observed, it has power only, no signals. > It's like the ISA slots in an A2000 or A3000, but really only designed > for a single-slot bridge card. > > > > If so, will a plain-jane NE2000 compatible network card work > > > on the thing? (I would think there's drivers for something like that... but > > > who knows at this point.) > > Not without some way to attach it to Zorro space. > > > It IS an ISA slot but you also need a Zorro bridgeboard to activate the > > pins... > > Right, like a Commodore A2286 card. > > > I've never seen an ISA bridgeboard :) > > What, like the GG2 Bus+ (GoldenGate II Bridgecard)? > > http://www.penguincentral.com/GG2/ > > I have to admit they haven't been popular in a few years, but I still > have new ones on the shelf. > > The largest drawback these days is that because of how cacheing was > implemented between the Zorro bus and most '060 cards, they don't play > nice in fully-loaded machines. The GG2 Bus+ lives in Zorro II memory > space (the 8MB chunk) to be able to map ISA memory space over to the > 68K in the Amiga. Because C= intended for memory to live there, it's > cached by default on machines like the A3000 and A4000. While there > are workarounds with C= processors (Enforcer disables cacheing in > Zorro II space because C= expect you to be using 32-bit RAM), by the > time the '060s started coming out, things got more difficult due to > the design of the '060 cards. It's possible to write an app to do the > same, but I don't think anyone ever did. > > So personally, I only recommend the GG2 Bus+ to stock A2000, A3000, > and A4000 owners. I can't recommend it to anyone who has or who wants > an '060-based machine. Back in the day, those people could afford an > A2065 or Ariadne anyway, so they weren't my prime customers. > > -ethan How well does it run on A2000 with 68030/40 processor cards (Geforce 030 Combo by GVP)? How much do you sell them for? From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Dec 6 13:21:31 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:21:31 +0100 Subject: DEC firmware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051206192131.GM13985@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2005-12-05 19:53:54 -0600, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > At least some of the Alphas have a failsafe jumper & disk, too, that > allows you to recover from failed flashes. Set the jumper, put the > disk in, and you can try again. These are only avaliable on machines with larger FLASH memories capable of basically holding a second firmware image. Though, the older machines (esp. the 3000 models) won't support that. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From Useddec at aol.com Tue Dec 6 15:35:43 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:35:43 EST Subject: Exatape 8MM 112m and 160MXL, ETC Message-ID: <296.13bd7dc.30c75e2f@aol.com> Hi, I have about 50 112M and 175-200 160MXL , and several hundred other ones in my way. Accepting offers on pieces or the entire lot. Thanks, Paul From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 6 16:47:41 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:47:41 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/2/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL > > included in Windoze, even XP. > > Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what > video > chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to download. > (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d > c000:0000" > enter then enter again.) Is XP guaranteed to map 0x000c0000 physical into c000:0 virtual in a VM86 session? Does it keep the whole ROM space mapped to its corresponding physical addresses? It certainly has to hide the video RAM... I would have expected it to replace the ROM with one of its own as well. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 6 16:47:41 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 14:47:41 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/2/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > DEBUG (the most useful program to ever come from Microsoft) is STILL > > included in Windoze, even XP. > > Yep, I get funny looks from others when I use debug to determine what > video > chipset is in unknown machines so I know what updated drivers to download. > (Seriously -- in XP, do start->run->cmd then type debug then type "d > c000:0000" > enter then enter again.) Is XP guaranteed to map 0x000c0000 physical into c000:0 virtual in a VM86 session? Does it keep the whole ROM space mapped to its corresponding physical addresses? It certainly has to hide the video RAM... I would have expected it to replace the ROM with one of its own as well. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 6 17:21:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:21:52 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43961D10.8080107@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Is XP guaranteed to map 0x000c0000 physical into c000:0 virtual in a VM86 > session? Does it keep the whole ROM space mapped to its corresponding > physical addresses? It certainly has to hide the video RAM... I would > have expected it to replace the ROM with one of its own as well. It's worked so far. For a second example, here's my goofy proprietary embedded chipset work laptop: C:\Documents and Settings\Jim Leonard>debug -d c000:0000 C000:0000 55 AA 70 EB 04 37 34 30-30 E9 A6 75 00 00 00 00 U.p..7400..u.... C000:0010 05 74 00 02 00 00 00 00-F2 00 62 91 66 91 49 42 .t........b.f.IB C000:0020 4D 20 56 47 41 20 43 6F-6D 70 61 74 69 62 6C 65 M VGA Compatible C000:0030 20 42 49 4F 53 2E 20 00-BB 66 00 00 00 01 12 00 BIOS. ..f...... C000:0040 14 10 FC 01 00 53 33 20-50 61 72 61 6D 6F 75 6E .....S3 Paramoun C000:0050 74 20 42 49 4F 53 20 56-65 72 2E 20 35 2E 32 45 t BIOS Ver. 5.2E C000:0060 2E 35 31 20 2D 20 32 34-20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 .51 - 24 C000:0070 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20-20 20 20 20 0D 0A 00 00 .... -d C000:0080 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ C000:0090 00 00 00 00 00 30 31 2F-30 39 2F 30 32 30 31 2F .....01/09/0201/ C000:00A0 30 39 2F 30 32 05 00 00-09 02 00 F0 D1 15 00 F0 09/02........... C000:00B0 D1 15 00 40 42 0F 00 10-02 03 13 E7 5F 1B 00 49 ... at B......._..I C000:00C0 14 00 00 27 03 02 04 FF-FF FF FF FF 0F 96 67 A6 ...'..........g. C000:00D0 67 D0 67 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 59 9A C9 g.g..........Y.. C000:00E0 C2 34 68 00 00 19 2F 00-00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .4h.../......... C000:00F0 00 01 50 43 49 52 33 53-2E 8C 00 00 18 00 00 00 ..PCIR3S........ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 6 18:03:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 19:03:18 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> > > -----Original Message----- > I've got a system with a couple large electrolytics that > > hasn't been > > powered up in a number of years. I have a 5A Variac. What's > > the typical procedure for the reformation process? Remove > > all cards (or maybe leave a junk card in for load?), start > > the Variac at 0V, increment > > by 10V every so often? How long per step, and/or is a > > different step suggested? > > > > I've seen lots of people say "you'll need to reform the > > caps, > > first", but never a prodecure for it. > > > > --jc > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 08:35:54 -0800 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > JC, > > AFAIK the issue with reforming old electrolytics is that the > caps will > have very high leakage currents until they reform. The goal is > to limit the power dissipation of the cap to something low > enough that it won't vent (or explode!) until it's recovered. > > Lots of people use Variacs for this purpose and they'll > certainly do the > job, but they don't give you any way to measure the leakage > current. I prefer the simple technique of putting a light bulb > in series with the AC side of the supply - when it's bright, the > current is high and as it gradually dims and goes out, the > current is low. > > > maybe leave a junk card in for load?) > > If it's a linear supply then it's probably happy without a > load, and > there's no sense in wasting even a junk board. > > If it's a switching supply then it depends on the design, but > most likely > it will require some kind of load on at least some of the > outputs to maintain regulation. > > Bob > I would recommend using a high quality Constant Current/Constant Voltage bench supply. These have a 'current' and a 'voltage' knob on them and two meters (someetimes one switchable meter). The procedure I use is to set the voltage to the level that you want the capacitor to reach while disconnected. Then turn the current limiting way down and connect the capacitor. Monitor the current while turning it up slowly and leave it at some comfortable low level so the cap can form up. This process limits the current while the cap forms up. You can watch the voltage meter, which should climb up to what you had it set at, if the cap is any good. Good CC/CV bench supplies aren't cheap when new, but they're an essential part of any good test bench, and can be located for a reasonable cost. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Dec 6 18:06:31 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:06:31 -0600 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: OK, I'm trying to build myself a hookup for an M8027(LPV11) to run to my distribution panel. I've done some reading, and it is clear that this is a Centronics compatible card, so I have the right one. Does anyone know the pinout for this device? I'm confused. I know you can use other printers with this card, and I'm just looking to do raw text to an old Panasonic dot matrix printer - but I don't know what signal is what. As usual, any help is appreciated. TIA Julian From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Dec 6 18:25:35 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:25:35 -0600 Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: I take a bench power supply and a resistor and bring the caps up that way- sometimes you have to disconnect a wire or two, but not always, and the resistor gives you a degree of safety a straight variac wouldn't. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 6 18:33:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:33:16 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <0IR300IWCQUQXKH2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Building M8027 hookup > From: "Wolfe, Julian " > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:06:31 -0600 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >OK, I'm trying to build myself a hookup for an M8027(LPV11) to run to my >distribution panel. > >I've done some reading, and it is clear that this is a Centronics compatible >card, so I have the right one. > >Does anyone know the pinout for this device? I'm confused. I know you can >use other printers with this card, and I'm just looking to do raw text to an >old Panasonic dot matrix printer - but I don't know what signal is what. > >As usual, any help is appreciated. > >TIA > >Julian Find thee the schematic for LPV11 as that is the only document I know of that says what pins on J1 are what. I did One years ago and that was what I had to do back then. Also there are jumpers that need to be correct as that board would drive LP2x, LP05, and LA180 and LN01 printers (data products parallel). Correctly wired any of the Centronics parallel printer equivilents used with the XT class stuff (even an HP4L) work well with it. It is otherwise trivial thing. If memory serves that LAV-11 had the same pinout of it's J1. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 6 18:35:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:35:05 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03> <439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net> <43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512061635050263.051F2C4F@10.0.0.252> On 12/6/2005 at 2:47 PM Eric J Korpela wrote: >Is XP guaranteed to map 0x000c0000 physical into c000:0 virtual in a VM86 >session? Does it keep the whole ROM space mapped to its corresponding >physical addresses? It certainly has to hide the video RAM... I would >have expected it to replace the ROM with one of its own as well. I don't believe XP does anything more than copy the ROM into a bank of RAM and then map the RAM. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 6 18:47:08 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:47:08 -0800 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> On 12/6/2005 at 7:03 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >I would recommend using a high quality Constant Current/Constant >Voltage bench supply. These have a 'current' and a 'voltage' knob >on them and two meters (someetimes one switchable meter). The >procedure I use is to set the voltage to the level that you want >the capacitor to reach while disconnected. Then turn the current >limiting way down and connect the capacitor. Monitor the current >while turning it up slowly and leave it at some comfortable low >level so the cap can form up. This process limits the current >while the cap forms up. You can watch the voltage meter, which >should climb up to what you had it set at, if the cap is any good. Wouldn't this amount to the same thing as putting a hefty resistor in series with a variac-controlled power supply with a voltmeter on the supply side? Start low--the resistor limits the current--crank the variac up bit by bit until the desired voltage is reached. A fuse isn't a bad idea either, in case the dielectric just plain fails. It's worked for me. And my power supply isn't anything more than a transformer connected to the variac followed by a full-wave bridge rectifier--no filtering needed. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 6 19:00:48 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:00:48 -0700 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote:Wouldn't this amount to the same thing as putting a hefty resistor in >series with a variac-controlled power supply with a voltmeter on the supply >side? Start low--the resistor limits the current--crank the variac up bit >by bit until the desired voltage is reached. A fuse isn't a bad idea >either, in case the dielectric just plain fails. > >It's worked for me. And my power supply isn't anything more than a >transformer connected to the variac followed by a full-wave bridge >rectifier--no filtering needed. > > > looks around ... better add a big hefty cap to that power supply as I know you have at least one kicking around :) Don't forget get to measure final voltage to your cap plus 10% 20% ??? safety margin. I also feel safe with new cap rather than a patched one. >Cheers, >Chuck > > From Useddec at aol.com Tue Dec 6 19:01:54 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 20:01:54 EST Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <248.30c5c6d.30c78e82@aol.com> Aren't the pinouts in the handbook? I think the LAV11 (M7949) was for the LA180 only. Paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 6 19:10:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 17:10:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <200512070110.RAA09119@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi There is a government spec on reforming capacitors that have been in storage for military specs. I don't recall if I saw this on this list or maybe one of the news groups. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 6 12:18:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:18:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Dec 6, 5 00:51:58 am Message-ID: > > Hi list, > > You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a > dumpster a few months ago. > > They've been stored away safely since then, and now I'd like to get > started testing them so that I can get them sold. Tony recommended > running the power supplies on a dummy load to make sure that none of > them are duds. I have a handy bag of Big Resistors that I can make > dummy loads out of, however, (in an 86B at least, I've not been into > the 85s yet) there's a 10-conductor cable coming out of the PSU and > I've no idea what sort of load it might want to see and on which pins. > > Googling for the service manual hasn't been productive. The HP86B service manual and a reverse engineered scheamtic (which includes PSU pinouts) is on http://www.hpmuseum.net . From what I remember, this PSU is happy with no load at all -- just pull the cable that links it to the logic board, power up, and check the output voltages wrt the ground pin on the connector. The HP85 is a bit harder. The service manual is available on the MoHPC CD-ROM set (http://www.hpmuseum.org), but you have to buy that. It's not on hpmuseum.net. And because I have the manual, I didn't produce my own schematic for that one. The other problem with the 85 is that the PSU is on the same board as the printer circuity, and it's hard to get to between the printer/tape drive asembly on the right and the monitor assembly on the left. Really, you need to pull the 40 pin custom printer controller chip from the PSU board before testing it (yes, it is socketed). The PSU/peinter PCB is connected to the logic PCB (under the keyboard) by 2 bits of tapewire. You will need to swing the keyboard up (undo the 2 screws on the bracket behind the keyboard) to get access to this. The connectiosn, according to the service manual, are : Rear J8 J9 GndH --o o-- +12H Phi_2 --o o-- +12H GndH --o o-- Phi_1 Phi_21--o o-- GndL GndL --o o-- GndL +5 --o o-- PWO4 B7 --o o-- GndL GndL --o o-- B6 B5 --o o-- +6 -12 --o o-- B4 B3 --o o-- +12L +6 --o o-- B2 B1 --o o-- +5 -5 --o o-- B0 Rd/ --o o-- GndL +32 --o o-- Wr/ LMA/ --o o-- PSS You can ignrore all siognals other than +12L, +12H, +6, +5, -5, -12 and +32 (which are the PSU outputs). The 2 groudns (GndH and GndL) are linked on the PSU board, as are the 2 +12V lines. The +32V line is ungegulated, so don't worry too much about that. All the other signals are the system bus to the printer control chip. Oh, one other trick. When removing the top on an HP85, pull off the tape drive eject button first. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 6 12:23:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:23:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: <200512051846.18330.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at Dec 5, 5 06:46:18 pm Message-ID: > Get the service manuals, etc. off of the DVD produced by "The Museum of HP > Calculators": > > http://www.hpmuseum.org/ I don;t normally like electronic documentation (much prefering it on paper...) but that set of CD-ROMs (I don't have a DVD-ROM drive, so I bougth the 10 CD set) wsa well worth the money. It's about what you'd pay for a couple of manuals at some places... If you like HP calculators and small computers, you need these disks. For larger HP machines, and peripherals (including printers and plotters) there's a lot of free scanned manuals (pdf format) on http://www.hpmuseum.net. Of course many of the service manuals are boardswapper guides, but I find it quite amusing to read those and then work out how to do the job properly :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 6 12:26:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:26:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hp plotter In-Reply-To: <000801c5fa1b$8adfa220$77e19c44@esper.com> from "Jimmy D" at Dec 5, 5 11:14:23 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, thanks for the help. It's more than I knew before.=20 > I can be persistent, in fact a friend of mine is looking up=20 > "communications analiser" as we speak. He too uses an A communications analyser (sometimes called a comms analyser and closely related to a protocol analyser) is a piece of test equipment that connects between 2 devices and displays the data (and other things, like the states of control lines) between them. It's a rather specialised unit, not the sort of thing you'll have lying around and no know it. Be warned that some people on classiccmp have very unusual test gear :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 6 12:30:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 18:30:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Plotter In-Reply-To: <20051206051600.45590.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> from "lee davison" at Dec 6, 5 05:15:59 am Message-ID: > > >> 1016 into 8388607 is 8256.50... 12 into 8256.5 is 688. > >> 688 feet? I'm missing something here. It did say plotter-units, > >> not user = units. > > > Yes, I get that too. Sounds far too large. Maybe that's the limits > > of the internal control electronics (that is, the plotter will accept > > vaules that large without giving an error), even though they are > > phyiscially ridiculous. > > Don't forget continuous roll plotters can plot images that are only > physically limited by the media length, (I can't remember if the True, but this limit is for both axes, and the thing is not nearly 700 feet wide :-). Maybe you can flip the coordinates round, or maybe it was simpler to have the same limits for both axes. One thing I've only just noticed. The limit is (of course) 2^23-1. At least it's not a totally random number. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 6 19:24:26 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:24:26 -0800 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> On 12/6/2005 at 6:00 PM woodelf wrote: >... I also feel safe with new cap rather than a patched one. Maybe not--a couple of years ago there was a minor scandal about bad Taiwan-origin electrolytics causing numerous motherboard failures (I have one of those boards here): http://www.niccomp.com/taiwanlowesr.htm Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 6 19:49:43 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:49:43 -0700 Subject: Hp plotter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43963FB7.2040209@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>Be warned that some people on classiccmp have very unusual test gear :-) >> >> >> Well use what ever you like as long as it keeps the MAGIC smoke inside. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 6 19:49:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:49:57 -0700 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43963FC5.2050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Maybe not--a couple of years ago there was a minor scandal about bad >Taiwan-origin electrolytics causing numerous motherboard failures (I have >one of those boards here): > > > Well a quality cap then , not floor sweepings. BTW the best electrolytic has been discontinued so the people in the quality audio have to go back the cheaper brands. Now for the latest USB item of the day: "LEDLoad, a USB controlled LED display. "LEDLoad is a device and software designed to display many shades of colors from green to red on your computer case LED. Colors are controlled completely by software and can be updated in real-time."" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 6 20:37:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:37:18 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <0IR300EL6WLFQZR4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Building M8027 hookup > From: Useddec at aol.com > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:01:54 -0500 (EST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Aren't the pinouts in the handbook? I think the LAV11 (M7949) was for the >LA180 only. > >Paul I have most of the microprocessor handbooks, nterfacing handbooks and the DEC Field service guide, NADA! The LAV-11 is limited to LA180, the LPV-11 is configurable for LA180 I've used both for "other" though the LAV-11 needed a few red wires. I've done it but the last time was back before the letters went to magenta. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 6 21:48:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:48:03 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:25 PM 12/6/05 -0600, you wrote: >I take a bench power supply and a resistor and bring the caps up that way- sometimes you have to disconnect a wire or two, but not always, and the resistor gives you a degree of safety a straight variac wouldn't. > > That's what I was thinking of doing. I keep a bunch of HP adjustable voltage/ adjustable current supplies around and they've come in handy for LOTs of different things. (I used one tonight to recharge and test some lead-acid batteries for my HP 5315 Freq meter then used to same supply to manually drive the VCO LO in a spectrum analyzer that I'm working on.) Q: How high of a voltage do you use the reform the caps? I'm wondering if it's necessary to apply full (or nearly full) rated voltage or if they're fully reformed at say 5 VDC. Has anybody done any testing in this area? Joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 6 21:02:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:02:33 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <0IR300JUNXRHC9E6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Cap reformation question > From: "Joe R." > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:48:03 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 06:25 PM 12/6/05 -0600, you wrote: >>I take a bench power supply and a resistor and bring the caps up that way- >sometimes you have to disconnect a wire or two, but not always, and the >resistor gives you a degree of safety a straight variac wouldn't. >> >> > > That's what I was thinking of doing. I keep a bunch of HP adjustable >voltage/ adjustable current supplies around and they've come in handy for >LOTs of different things. (I used one tonight to recharge and test some >lead-acid batteries for my HP 5315 Freq meter then used to same supply to >manually drive the VCO LO in a spectrum analyzer that I'm working on.) > > Q: How high of a voltage do you use the reform the caps? I'm wondering >if it's necessary to apply full (or nearly full) rated voltage or if >they're fully reformed at say 5 VDC. Has anybody done any testing in this >area? > > Joe They need to be formed to at least the working voltage, it's better if you can go closer to the rated voltage. My trick has been a low current (120V pannel lamp) in series with whatever supply was needed/handy. The lamp (under 1W) will limit current flow and they are cheap. Switch mode supplies are very risky at below rated voltage as the operating currents in many (older ones) gies up with decreasing voltage. This are best carefully, removing the caps and forming them out of circuit may be advised. Allison From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 6 21:29:35 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:29:35 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <0IR300JUNXRHC9E6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR300JUNXRHC9E6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4396571F.9060505@jcwren.com> These are big mambo-jumbo caps in a linear supply, specifically a nameless S-100 system. I'm not sure if it's feasible to remove them. They're screwed into the motherboard, and while I could disassemble the motherboard from the chassis, it might still be a pain to get them out. Controlling the voltage into them is pretty easy, via the Variac. Limiting the current is a whole 'nother problem. Maybe a light bulb in series with the Variac? --jc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 6 21:37:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:37:05 -0700 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <439658E1.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > Q: How high of a voltage do you use the reform the caps? I'm wondering >if it's necessary to apply full (or nearly full) rated voltage or if >they're fully reformed at say 5 VDC. Has anybody done any testing in this >area? > > I assume the vorking voltage + some safety margin. A quick search found this link on the web of a circuit to reform the caps. http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 6 23:02:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:02:42 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <439658E1.10602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051206230242.11079694@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:37 PM 12/6/05 -0700, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> Q: How high of a voltage do you use the reform the caps? I'm wondering >>if it's necessary to apply full (or nearly full) rated voltage or if >>they're fully reformed at say 5 VDC. Has anybody done any testing in this >>area? >> >> >I assume the vorking voltage + some safety margin. I disagree. Caps have a definite voltage limit and in many of them it's not much more than the stated working voltage. If you apply too high a voltage then the insulating layer will breakdown and the cap will short. Limiting the current will prevent the cap from exploding but I think you'll permanetly damage the cap. I wouldn't go go above what ever the maximum voltage is for the cap. But further, I wonder if even that much voltage is necessary. I believe that once you apply a certain voltage the insulating layer reforms and any higher voltage is unnecessary and possibly dangerous to the cap. >A quick search found this link on the web of a circuit to reform the caps. >http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm > Interesting circuit but it's really only good for caps that are rated between the ignition and maximum voltages of the neon lamp. Most of the circuits that we're interested in will be 5 or 12VDC and that too low for the neon lamp to trigger (~60V). That's the problem with this whole subject, there's no one approach that's going to satisfy EVERY situation. Joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 6 22:12:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:12:49 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <4396571F.9060505@jcwren.com> References: <0IR300JUNXRHC9E6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4396571F.9060505@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43966141.10805@bellatlantic.net> J.C. Wren wrote: > These are big mambo-jumbo caps in a linear supply, specifically a > nameless S-100 system. I'm not sure if it's feasible to remove them. > They're screwed into the motherboard, and while I could disassemble the > motherboard from the chassis, it might still be a pain to get them out. > > Controlling the voltage into them is pretty easy, via the Variac. > Limiting the current is a whole 'nother problem. Maybe a light bulb in > series with the Variac? > > --jc For that case yes. Variac to come up slow and low wattage lamp to limit current. S100 linear supplies are unregulated (usually) before they get on the bus so a load is NOT needed. Do insure the caps are discharged before inserting any board. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 6 22:32:12 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:32:12 -0700 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051206230242.11079694@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051206214803.4417fcb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20051206230242.11079694@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <439665CC.2070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > I disagree. Caps have a definite voltage limit and in many of them it's >not much more than the stated working voltage. If you apply too high a >voltage then the insulating layer will breakdown and the cap will short. >Limiting the current will prevent the cap from exploding but I think you'll >permanetly damage the cap. I wouldn't go go above what ever the maximum >voltage is for the cap. But further, I wonder if even that much voltage is >necessary. I believe that once you apply a certain voltage the insulating >layer reforms and any higher voltage is unnecessary and possibly dangerous >to the cap. > > > > Then use the surge voltage rating for the caps. But since I don't know the rating of the Caps for a S100 Buss,I am guessing about 20 volts working and say 25 volts surge. At one time you could find such caps now days reforming may be the only option. From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 6 22:34:42 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:34:42 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43966141.10805@bellatlantic.net> References: <0IR300JUNXRHC9E6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4396571F.9060505@jcwren.com> <43966141.10805@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <43966662.60003@jcwren.com> Sounds good. Last question (I think). Watt (!) constitutes low-wattage? 4W and 7W nightlights are easy to find. 40 watt oven bulb? --jc Allison wrote: > J.C. Wren wrote: > >> These are big mambo-jumbo caps in a linear supply, specifically a >> nameless S-100 system. I'm not sure if it's feasible to remove >> them. They're screwed into the motherboard, and while I could >> disassemble the motherboard from the chassis, it might still be a >> pain to get them out. >> >> Controlling the voltage into them is pretty easy, via the Variac. >> Limiting the current is a whole 'nother problem. Maybe a light bulb >> in series with the Variac? >> >> --jc > > > For that case yes. Variac to come up slow and low wattage lamp to limit > current. > > S100 linear supplies are unregulated (usually) before they get on the bus > so a load is NOT needed. Do insure the caps are discharged before > inserting > any board. > > Allison From vp at cs.drexel.edu Tue Dec 6 23:21:47 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:21:47 -0500 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? Message-ID: <20051207052147.347012012B90@mail.cs.drexel.edu> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a > dumpster a few months ago. > > Googling for the service manual hasn't been productive. something similar to an assembly-level repair for the HP-85 may be found at: http://www.series80.org/PDFs/HP85-RepairCourse.pdf This is guide designed to teach repair technicians how to service the HP-85A and HP-85B Personal Computers. For the HP-86 you can find the assembly-level repair manual at: http://www2.akso.de/files/series_80/Assembly_Level_Service_86B.pdf but I think the quality of the scan leaves much to be desired. Also you can find Tony's schematics for the 86B at: http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=719 Best Regards **vp From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Dec 6 23:50:57 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:50:57 -0800 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: <20051207052147.347012012B90@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051207052147.347012012B90@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200512062150.57671.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 06 December 2005 21:21, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a > > dumpster a few months ago. > > > > Googling for the service manual hasn't been productive. > > something similar to an assembly-level repair for the HP-85 > may be found at: > http://www.series80.org/PDFs/HP85-RepairCourse.pdf This site requests a name and password: anonymous doesn't work... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Dec 6 23:55:36 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:55:36 -0800 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? In-Reply-To: <20051207052147.347012012B90@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20051207052147.347012012B90@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200512062155.36733.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 06 December 2005 21:21, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > You may remember the big stack of HP85s/HP86Bs I pulled from a > > dumpster a few months ago. > > > > Googling for the service manual hasn't been productive. > > something similar to an assembly-level repair for the HP-85 > may be found at: > http://www.series80.org/PDFs/HP85-RepairCourse.pdf Forget my last comment re:login/passoword - I was using the Konquerer browser - when I changed to the Firefox browser - all was O.K. (you do need a login/password - but you are given them in Firefox's error message). Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Dec 6 23:58:42 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:58:42 +0000 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43963FC5.2050405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> <43963FC5.2050405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43967A12.2080302@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Maybe not--a couple of years ago there was a minor scandal about bad >> Taiwan-origin electrolytics causing numerous motherboard failures (I have >> one of those boards here): >> >> >> > Well a quality cap then , not floor sweepings. > BTW the best electrolytic has been discontinued so the people in the > quality audio have to go back > the cheaper brands. > Now for the latest USB item of the day: > "LEDLoad, a USB controlled LED display. "LEDLoad is a device and > software designed to display many shades of colors from green to red on > your computer case LED. Colors are controlled completely by software and > can be updated in real-time."" Conceptually similar to blinkenlights. Now I'd *definitely* buy USB blinkenlights, if it was a real working panel. Gordon. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 00:22:19 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:22:19 +0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: A lot have been said about the apparent "bloat" in current Linux... and I disagree. The same people who typically complained about bloat will typically complain about "but Linux doesn't have XXXX application which I need.." You can CHOOSE not to install the "bloaty" stuff. One man's bloat is another man's lifesaver. As far a bloat is concerned, just blast KDE/Qt, Gnome/GTK out and just use plain X, twm, xterm, Firefox. That's it. If even that is still too "bloaty", do without X, go console full console mode and stick to mutt, and elinks (for mail and browsing). For music you can use mpg123/ogg123. For movies use aaxine (yes you can watch movie in console mode, or for that matter on a VT100, but no sound). p.s. I typically go around using console mode for at least a couple of hours everyday. Console mode with framebuffer at 1024x768 is great!! :-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Dec 7 02:02:52 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:02:52 GMT Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: woodelf "Re: Cap reformation question" (Dec 6, 18:00) References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <10512070802.ZM18758@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 6 2005, 18:00, woodelf wrote: > margin. I also feel safe with new cap rather than a patched one. The "new" capacitor that's been sitting on the supplier's shelf for a year or two probably still needs reformed. Don't confuse heat damage, which makes capacitors dry out, with aging which causes breakdown of the oxide layer. Electrolytics only retain their proper characteristics when operated regularly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 7 02:39:45 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 08:39:45 -0000 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: <0IR300EL6WLFQZR4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <004801c5fb09$c802eec0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Allison wrote: > I have most of the microprocessor handbooks, nterfacing handbooks and > the DEC Field service guide, NADA! > > The LAV-11 is limited to LA180, the LPV-11 is configurable for LA180 > I've used both for "other" though the LAV-11 needed a few red wires. I'm late to this discussion so I'm not sure exactly what is needed. The LSI-11 Systems Service Manual has a page or two on both the LAV11 and the LPV11 (and I promise to start uploading it all to manx tonight ...). The LAV11 uses a BC11S cable for the LA180 and a 7009087 for Centronics models (101, 101A, 101D, 102A and 303). In the case of the LA180/BC11S, the P2 end of the cable attaches to the LA180. You also need to fiddle with the LA180 jumpers and the LAV11 jumpers. The LPV11 is the replacement for the LAV11. If what is really needed is the pinout of the BC11S, then none of this will help (unless knowing the cable type helps - there seems to be one place on the net selling these). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 7 03:01:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 03:01:29 -0600 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > As far a bloat is concerned, just blast KDE/Qt, Gnome/GTK out and just > use plain X, twm, xterm, Firefox. That's it. If even that is still too > "bloaty", do without X, go console full console mode and stick to That's all well and good until you DESELECT X during installation and yet it ends up getting installed anyway. Some distros are simply bloated, particularly any Redhat distro (or derivative) in the last 5 years. I've stopped installing Redhat or Fedora for that reason. My next distro will either be LFS or Gentoo so that I have control over the bloat -- if it's bloated, at least it will be my fault! > p.s. I typically go around using console mode for at least a couple of > hours everyday. Console mode with framebuffer at 1024x768 is great!! > :-) Textmode + screen package is better :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 04:50:10 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:50:10 +0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/7/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > As far a bloat is concerned, just blast KDE/Qt, Gnome/GTK out and just > > use plain X, twm, xterm, Firefox. That's it. If even that is still too > > "bloaty", do without X, go console full console mode and stick to > > That's all well and good until you DESELECT X during installation and yet it > ends up getting installed anyway. Yeah. I know. For servers I choose custom install, and NOT select even a SINGLE package. After the final reboot, I'll then remove the unwanted stuff manually. > > Some distros are simply bloated, particularly any Redhat distro (or derivative) > in the last 5 years. I've stopped installing Redhat or Fedora for that reason. > My next distro will either be LFS or Gentoo so that I have control over the > bloat -- if it's bloated, at least it will be my fault! > > > p.s. I typically go around using console mode for at least a couple of > > hours everyday. Console mode with framebuffer at 1024x768 is great!! > > :-) > > Textmode + screen package is better :-) Console/framebuffer is like textmode but 128 columns by 47 rows. I don't need screen because you can have 6 virtual consoles. This is of course assuming you have a monitor and a video adapter. If you're on a serial console with a VT100 (i.e. a single session), then screen is a godsend. From bert at brothom.nl Wed Dec 7 04:53:29 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:53:29 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4396BF29.40609@brothom.nl> > This is of course assuming you have a monitor and a video adapter. If > you're on a serial console with a VT100 (i.e. a single session), then > screen is a godsend. Forgive me my ignorance, but what does screen do? Bert From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 05:00:50 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:00:50 +0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <4396BF29.40609@brothom.nl> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> <4396BF29.40609@brothom.nl> Message-ID: SCREEN(1) SCREEN(1) NAME screen - screen manager with VT100/ANSI terminal emulation SYNOPSIS screen [ -options ] [ cmd [ args ] ] screen -r [[pid.]tty[.host]] screen -r sessionowner/[[pid.]tty[.host]] DESCRIPTION Screen is a full-screen window manager that multiplexes a physical ter- minal between several processes (typically interactive shells). Each virtual terminal provides the functions of a DEC VT100 terminal and, in addition, several control functions from the ISO 6429 (ECMA 48, ANSI X3.64) and ISO 2022 standards (e.g. insert/delete line and support for multiple character sets). There is a scrollback history buffer for each virtual terminal and a copy-and-paste mechanism that allows moving text regions between windows. When screen is called, it creates a single window with a shell in it (or the specified command) and then gets out of your way so that you can use the program as you normally would. Then, at any time, you can create new (full-screen) windows with other programs in them (including more shells), kill existing windows, view a list of windows, turn out- put logging on and off, copy-and-paste text between windows, view the scrollback history, switch between windows in whatever manner you wish, etc. All windows run their programs completely independent of each other. Programs continue to run when their window is currently not vis- ible and even when the whole screen session is detached from the user's terminal. When a program terminates, screen (per default) kills the window that contained it. If this window was in the foreground, the display switches to the previous window; if none are left, screen exits. Everything you type is sent to the program running in the current win- dow. The only exception to this is the one keystroke that is used to initiate a command to the window manager. By default, each command begins with a control-a (abbreviated C-a from now on), and is followed by one other keystroke. The command character and all the key bindings can be fully customized to be anything you like, though they are always two characters in length. On 12/7/05, Bert Thomas wrote: > > This is of course assuming you have a monitor and a video adapter. If > > you're on a serial console with a VT100 (i.e. a single session), then > > screen is a godsend. > > Forgive me my ignorance, but what does screen do? > Bert > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Dec 7 05:16:21 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 05:16:21 -0600 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: <004801c5fb09$c802eec0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <000301c5fb1f$a767e8d0$6401a8c0@dementium> Just looking at all of what is covered in that manual is making me drool. I can't wait to get my hands on it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 2:40 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Building M8027 hookup Allison wrote: > I have most of the microprocessor handbooks, nterfacing handbooks and > the DEC Field service guide, NADA! > > The LAV-11 is limited to LA180, the LPV-11 is configurable for LA180 > I've used both for "other" though the LAV-11 needed a few red wires. I'm late to this discussion so I'm not sure exactly what is needed. The LSI-11 Systems Service Manual has a page or two on both the LAV11 and the LPV11 (and I promise to start uploading it all to manx tonight ...). The LAV11 uses a BC11S cable for the LA180 and a 7009087 for Centronics models (101, 101A, 101D, 102A and 303). In the case of the LA180/BC11S, the P2 end of the cable attaches to the LA180. You also need to fiddle with the LA180 jumpers and the LAV11 jumpers. The LPV11 is the replacement for the LAV11. If what is really needed is the pinout of the BC11S, then none of this will help (unless knowing the cable type helps - there seems to be one place on the net selling these). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From damosan at comcast.net Wed Dec 7 05:25:54 2005 From: damosan at comcast.net (Damond Walker) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 06:25:54 -0500 Subject: IBM AS400? In-Reply-To: <0436dbaa0ec644f4956909ad2b8a65ec@valleyimplants.com> References: <0436dbaa0ec644f4956909ad2b8a65ec@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <66250BB9-C4E5-45BB-934F-434EF1F79867@comcast.net> On Nov 28, 2005, at 8:03 PM, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > In short, it sounded to me like a 50/50 chance of having > something cool or a nightmare, so I let the opporitunity slide. Unless you already have a pile of '400 stuff or contacts within that community it would most likely be a nightmare. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 7 06:06:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:06:26 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > A lot have been said about the apparent "bloat" in current Linux... > and I disagree. The same people who typically complained about bloat > will typically complain about "but Linux doesn't have XXXX application > which I need.." You can CHOOSE not to install the "bloaty" stuff. One > man's bloat is another man's lifesaver. It's a lot of work to not install bloat, though. Packages for all modern Linux distros tend to be very coarse grain and you get lots of junk that you don't need. Yesterday's example was mplayer - about 12MB for the install, another 12MB for codecs, then it wanted things like lame, divx, theora, xvidcore (I'm reading off the shell's history here :) before it'd even run. There were probably more, but I gave up at that point. I ended up building from source which works fine and does what I need to do without all the extras that are required by a packaged system - but it means that there's no record on the system of any mplayer "package", so it'll be hard to know what to remove if it ever comes to it. *this* is where the problem is - you either get screwed by packages coming with (and requiring) lots of extras that you don't need, or you get screwed by having to build stuff from source. Packages are great if you have gigs of disk space - but the concept of a package is too coarse if you're after a lean manageable system. Hopefully someone with enough clout is thinking about this... > As far a bloat is concerned, just blast KDE/Qt, But it does do some things well. Yet I see all sorts of KDE apps installed that I don't need - no doubt because the package was "KDE applications", there was something in there that I *did* need, and so I had to install them all. (I'm curious now as to what a "wallet management tool" is... my wallet's in my pocket - what on earth about it needs managing on my computer? :) Building a more modern and integrated environment is a noble and worthy thing to do, I'd say. But only if the underlying architecture is sound and still gives the freedom of choice / control that Unix users have always had. Both KDE and Gnome seem to suffer from a Windows-like philosophy of "install as many features as possible so that we look better than the competition" Comments on how well OSX handles this would be welcome. I suspect the Linux lot missed a trick about 5 years ago and should have designed and built a desktop environment up from scratch rather than just lifting concepts from Windows. > p.s. I typically go around using console mode for at least a couple of > hours everyday. Console mode with framebuffer at 1024x768 is great!! Heh. A graphical email client just works better for me, and I couldn't do image editing without a desktop or a graphical web browser, but other than that I tend to just have five or six shell windows open for doing most things. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 06:14:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:14:10 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Cap reformation question > From: "J.C. Wren" > Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:34:42 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Sounds good. Last question (I think). Watt (!) constitutes >low-wattage? 4W and 7W nightlights are easy to find. 40 watt oven bulb? > > --jc > >Allison wrote: > >> J.C. Wren wrote: >> >>> These are big mambo-jumbo caps in a linear supply, specifically a >>> nameless S-100 system. I'm not sure if it's feasible to remove >>> them. They're screwed into the motherboard, and while I could >>> disassemble the motherboard from the chassis, it might still be a >>> pain to get them out. >>> >>> Controlling the voltage into them is pretty easy, via the Variac. >>> Limiting the current is a whole 'nother problem. Maybe a light bulb >>> in series with the Variac? >>> >>> --jc >> >> >> For that case yes. Variac to come up slow and low wattage lamp to limit >> current. >> >> S100 linear supplies are unregulated (usually) before they get on the bus >> so a load is NOT needed. Do insure the caps are discharged before >> inserting >> any board. >> >> Allison Anything under a 20W appliance bulb initially. The lower the wattage the higher will be the initial resistance and lower peak current. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 06:19:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:19:00 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <0IR400JJVNISC2T7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Building M8027 hookup > From: "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:39:45 +0000 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Allison wrote: > >> I have most of the microprocessor handbooks, nterfacing handbooks and >> the DEC Field service guide, NADA! >> >> The LAV-11 is limited to LA180, the LPV-11 is configurable for LA180 >> I've used both for "other" though the LAV-11 needed a few red wires. > >I'm late to this discussion so I'm not sure exactly what >is needed. The LSI-11 Systems Service Manual has a page or >two on both the LAV11 and the LPV11 (and I promise to start >uploading it all to manx tonight ...). > >The LAV11 uses a BC11S cable for the LA180 and a 7009087 for >Centronics models (101, 101A, 101D, 102A and 303). > >In the case of the LA180/BC11S, the P2 end of the cable attaches >to the LA180. You also need to fiddle with the LA180 jumpers and >the LAV11 jumpers. The LPV11 is the replacement for the LAV11. > >If what is really needed is the pinout of the BC11S, then >none of this will help (unless knowing the cable type helps >- there seems to be one place on the net selling these). > >Antonio What is missed being late is the printer at the end is not a DEC LA series or DataProducts. He wishes to use a PC compatable (centronics) printer. Thats doable but the cable is not DEC stock though one could be modified to match the pinout. Allison From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 7 08:35:44 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:35:44 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:06:31 CST.) References: Message-ID: <200512071435.jB7EZi08009139@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone know the pinout for this device? I'm confused. I know > you can use other printers with this card, and I'm just looking to > do raw text to an old Panasonic dot matrix printer - but I don't know > what signal is what. A pinout for the BC27A cable appears (along with a bunch of other unrelated stuff; search for LPV11) at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html Perhaps this will give enough info on signal identity to help you build the right cable. De From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 7 09:14:54 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:14:54 -0500 Subject: racking an 11/34a & 11/44 - help? Message-ID: <200512071514.jB7FEsaM012831@mwave.heeltoe.com> [I feel like I should be holding a cup of coffee and saying, "Hello, My name is Brad and I have several unibus 11's..." :-)] I want to rack up my 11/34a and 11/44. Neither came with rack slides. The 11/34a has a long silver plate on the side with little "T handles" in the front (some sort of release). The 11/44 has some big oddly-round shapped thing on the sides, obvious to allow it to be rotated after being pulled out on it's slides. Both look like they want some sort of specialized slide. Can someone give me a list/idea/pointer to what hardware do I need? Is this stuff I can find or is it hard to find? (now that I think if it, I should probably go look at some of the pdfs to see if I can figure it out from that) thanks! -brad From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Dec 7 09:30:45 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:30:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun interface converter Message-ID: Does anyone here have a Sun keyboard interface converter they want to sell, such as a Sun X465A or Ultraspec 5167? Should convert PS/2 keyboard and mouse for use on an older Sun system. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 7 09:35:15 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:35:15 -0500 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message from Ethan Dicks of "Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:14:34 +1300." Message-ID: <200512071535.jB7FZF6s014097@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Does anyone here have any experience with reading VMS BACKUP tapes >with tapetools? Can you share your observations? I haven't yet tried >reading the files - I know there were some VMS BACKUP extractors in C >years ago, and I've even used them, but I'll probably have to re-find >and rebuilt them. I could also fire up simh and VMS, but at the >moment, my VMS install CDs are somewhere else. I'm actually in the middle of doing this also. I've been working on some tools to catalog and extract thousands of tapes, most from obscure operating systems (ITS, Genera) and some from not-so-obscure (Unix, VMS, TOPS-20). I found a program recently "vmsbu.c" which seems to work. I made some small mods to it to handle extracted files from images. Basically I have tape image files written in the form of tapetools. (be careful because I think tapetools-0.4 will not pad blocks and tapetools-0.6 will; I have a program which will analyse images and fix this if needed) If you take a vms backup image and run tapeextract you end up with a small file (the 'label file') and a big file (the backup). I modified vmsbu.c to allow you to specify both files and then generate a TOC and/or extract the files. I'd be happy to put these program on my web site if you'd like them. -brad From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 7 09:39:04 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:39:04 -0500 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:35:15 EST.) <200512071535.jB7FZF6s014097@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200512071535.jB7FZF6s014097@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200512071539.jB7Fd4bY010725@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm actually in the middle of doing this also. I've been working > on some tools to catalog and extract thousands of tapes, most from > obscure operating systems (ITS, Genera) and some from not-so-obscure > (Unix, VMS, TOPS-20). I Don't suppose you're doing Prime, in the obscure category? De From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Dec 7 10:11:52 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 10:11:52 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512061635050263.051F2C4F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004001c5fb48$f015ba20$0500a8c0@Gils6240> ... > >Is XP guaranteed to map 0x000c0000 physical into c000:0 > virtual in a > >VM86 session? Does it keep the whole ROM space mapped to > its corresponding > >physical addresses? It certainly has to hide the video > RAM... I would > >have expected it to replace the ROM with one of its own as well. > > I don't believe XP does anything more than copy the ROM into > a bank of RAM and then map the RAM. On Pentium systems, at least the current ones, a larger "page" is used to map most of the kernel memory into every logical address space with a single entry. IIRC the default mapping is 4 MB. Gil > > Cheers, > Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 7 10:19:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:19:03 -0500 Subject: tapetools and VMS Backup tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:39:04 EST." <200512071539.jB7Fd4bY010725@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200512071619.jB7GJ3AX022992@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > > I'm actually in the middle of doing this also. I've been working > > on some tools to catalog and extract thousands of tapes, most from > > obscure operating systems (ITS, Genera) and some from not-so-obscure > > (Unix, VMS, TOPS-20). > >I Don't suppose you're doing Prime, in the obscure category? I have not, sorry. but for the right hourly rate I'll do most anything :-) -brad From bert at brothom.nl Wed Dec 7 10:22:55 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:22:55 +0100 Subject: really off-topic: used car parts for US car? Message-ID: <43970C5F.80203@brothom.nl> Hi, My apologies for being so off-topic, but I see this mailinglist as a nice place to find nice people that think alike. Here's my question: can anyone give me an address where I might find a used fuel pump for a hercules white car. The engine is a 6-cilinder. I think it's an rather uncommon car in the netherlands so that may explain why it is so hard to find parts for it. Thanks in advance and kind regards, Bert From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 7 10:36:22 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:36:22 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >It's a lot of work to not install bloat, though. Packages for all modern >Linux distros tend to be very coarse grain and you get lots of junk that >you don't need. Yup, you *cannot* install Redhat or SuSE without installing X and then KDE or Gnome (or both), and some things in Gnome are also crosscompiled w/KDE libs, so it pretty much gets installed anyway. And paring things down sometimes breaks things, too; I have a webserver that went unstable when I klobbered a metric buttload of unnecessary (or so I thought) RPMs... Ungh. What a PITA. >(I'm curious now as to what a "wallet management tool" is... my wallet's >in my pocket - what on earth about it needs managing on my computer? :) It's for managing online passwords & account information. >Comments on how well OSX handles this would be welcome. Can't comment on that yet, still don't have much time to diddle with my new (to me) iMac w/Linux & OSX on it. >I suspect the Linux lot missed a trick about 5 years ago and should have >designed and built a desktop environment up from scratch rather than just >lifting concepts from Windows. Pffft. Lifting concepts from Windows? You couldn't be further from the truth on that one. Every WM I ever used had multiple desktops, OSX just got 'em, and Winders has yet to have that. Oh, and there's Afterstep, FVWM (my favorite, and ontopic, it's ancient! ;-) and for minimalistic sake, TWM... It's just that when most people can't double-click on an MP3 file to make sound come out, they think said WM sucks & get lazy. :-/ >>p.s. I typically go around using console mode for at least a couple of >>hours everyday. Console mode with framebuffer at 1024x768 is great!! > >Heh. A graphical email client just works better for me, Text would work fine for me if I had time to convert my 7 *years* of Eudora filters over to Mutt... Not exactly high on my priority list... ;-) > and I couldn't do image editing without a desktop I thought there was inroads to making the Gimp work directly on the framebuffer... but that thought might've been a side effect of having too much blood in my alcohol system... ;-) > or a graphical web browser, links -g www.google.com. Works with DirectFB and the SDL library. It looks pretty darned good, and doesn't need X whatsoever. (I also have lynx for text-only browsing when one needs to highlight text, because when the graphical links browser takes over the mouse, you can't highlight text anymore.) > but other than that I tend to just have five or six shell windows open > for doing most things. I have the Sun font compiled into the kernel on all my Linux boxen, because it's just so durned freakin' kewl -- fell in love with that font on the first Sun I ever saw, back in '89. Anyone know of a Sun font I could use for terminal windows in X? That's the biggest thing I miss of all... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 7 10:36:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:36:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512071642.LAA19036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I ended up building from source which works fine and does what I need > to do without all the extras that are required by a packaged system - > but it means that there's no record on the system of any mplayer > "package", so it'll be hard to know what to remove if it ever comes > to it. That's a problem only if you use no discipline when installing the result. Personally, for example, if I were to install xabc-0.9.4, the source would be in /local/src/xabc, the installed binaries would be in /local/.bin/xabc-0.9.4, and there would be symlinks from /local/bin into /local/.bin/xabc-0.9.4, and similarly for /local/{man,lib,...}. There would also be a file recording those symlinks, so they can be removed easily - there's a program dedicated to the job of managing the link farms. If this sounds interesting, have a look at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/c-publish/, which contains the program responsible for managing the link farms. (The rest is just convincing the various programs to install their stuff in the proper places, which can sometimes be difficult; it's depressing the number of packages that think they know better than you how you want them installed.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 7 10:45:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:45:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512071648.LAA19093@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Anyone know of a Sun font I could use for terminal windows in X? > That's the biggest thing I miss of all... ;-) Sure. I've got a gallant.r.19 X font. It even has an ISO-8859-1 top half (not identical to the one Sun added in recent ROM revs; I hate 8859-1 high halves that distort uppercase letters when they acquire diacritics). ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/fonts/gallant.r.19.bdf should be what you want. (If you want pcf or snf or some such, just throw bdftopcf or bdftosnf at it....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Dec 7 11:14:57 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:14:57 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> References: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439726A1.23667.4DF4F65C@localhost> Am 7 Dec 2005 11:36 meinte Roger Merchberger: > Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > >(I'm curious now as to what a "wallet management tool" is... my wallet's > >in my pocket - what on earth about it needs managing on my computer? :) > It's for managing online passwords & account information. > >Comments on how well OSX handles this would be welcome. > Can't comment on that yet, still don't have much time to diddle with my new > (to me) iMac w/Linux & OSX on it. You got to see OSX as you look at windows, one working complete environment. don't peek under the hood, just use it. Just because the kernel is of Unix descent, doesn't do any good or bad. You get the Apple OS, that's it. And basicly that's the same with a KDE or Gnome System (based on some Linux variation). You get a dektop system to be used (or not). To talk about a system base is a tharher ivory tower issue. Either it does what you want or it doesn't. After all, there's quite a lot of freedom in Windows to choose what you use and how to do it. You got even alternative Desktops ... Just everybody goes ahead and klicks some icons on the standard GUI. That's it. > >I suspect the Linux lot missed a trick about 5 years ago and should have > >designed and built a desktop environment up from scratch rather than just > >lifting concepts from Windows. > Pffft. Lifting concepts from Windows? You couldn't be further from the > truth on that one. Every WM I ever used had multiple desktops, OSX just got > 'em, and Winders has yet to have that. Hmm. To me Linux is just a 'Me-Too' x86 Unix ripoff. No real new development here. And the same is ture for the desktop side. KDE and Gnome are rather straight steal from Windoze. Except that due the lack of a coordinated environment every App as to do everything on its own. And a way to small user base who is happy with whatever they get. Most apple users wouldn't even take more than a first look at the screen with aps cheered by Linux people. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 7 11:41:52 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:41:52 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:14:57 +0100." <439726A1.23667.4DF4F65C@localhost> Message-ID: <200512071741.jB7Hfqc1001732@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Hans Franke" wrote: > >Hmm. To me Linux is just a 'Me-Too' x86 Unix ripoff. No real new >development here. And the same is ture for the desktop side. KDE >and Gnome are rather straight steal from Windoze. mmm. please don't tell that to any of my customers who are running linux on powerpc, arm, mips, dm642, etc... chips :-) and, when you look at the performance of 2.6 kernels it's pretty damn good and (my opinion) scales better than pretty much everything other than solaris. 2.4 is a pig, I'll give you that, and has big vm issues, but 2.6 is a huge improvement. NT still a lot of vm and scaling issues as do most *nix kernels (with the exception of solaris). I'm not sure i'd call linux a unix ripoff anymore. That was true at one time but not anymore. and don't get me started on os x. i've been gettting hard crashes (i.e. power cycle required) on a daily basis running 64 bit apps on my g5 imac... I love the 'new mac' but there's still work to be done there. -brad From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 7 12:20:24 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:20:24 -0500 Subject: HP 735 Workstation fun. References: <01C5F6F6.17D43CA0@MSE_D03><439099E8.8030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021314570387.060E3E88@10.0.0.252> <4390BFCA.7080202@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512021408320903.063F4F04@10.0.0.252> <20051202144658.B1818@shell.lmi.net> <20051202183521.415c660b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051202154317.I1818@shell.lmi.net><43911ACE.4080407@oldskool.org> <43961D10.8080107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <009501c5fb5a$e4d4b1e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> I just found an HP Apollo PA-RISC 735/125 (1992) in very good condition. It's another example of HP's ridiculously clean under-the-hood design, and probably could almost be shown to industry outsiders as an object of art. I have to ask: Anyone have a copy of HP-UX that will run on this? I understand that NetBSD won't use the UltraSCSI and I like to keep the original configurations together anyway. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 12:25:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:25:48 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <004001c5fb48$f015ba20$0500a8c0@Gils6240> References: <004001c5fb48$f015ba20$0500a8c0@Gils6240> Message-ID: <200512071025480620.08F37115@10.0.0.252> On 12/7/2005 at 10:11 AM Gil Carrick wrote: >On Pentium systems, at least the current ones, a larger "page" is used to >map most of the kernel memory into every logical address space with a >single >entry. IIRC the default mapping is 4 MB. True, but that doesn't address where the video ROM image in NTVDM comes from. I believe it's merely a mapped in RAM copy of the ROM. To do otherwise would likely involve taking a speed hit whenever a routine inside a 16-bit NTVDM session accessed the video ROM space, which seems unlikely. Still, it'd be easy enough to check--just put a probe on the CS pin of the video rom and see what happens when a 16-bit app accesses the memory area. BTW, this little topic is a bone of contention for some. There's a group who insist that enabling the BIOS option "Cache Video ROM" is necessary for maximum performance under Win 2K and XP. Perhaps during early startup, but once the generic VGA driver's loaded that's all water under the bridge--and caching is wasted physical memory. What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator for Vista and we'll get to keep our old apps in some form. I can understand MS wanting to deprecate a lot of the PC legacy features. NT startup has to be one of the more complex computing tasks around and I suspect that the folks in Redmond have envied Apple for a long time in not having to accomodate all sorts of bizarre departures from the norm in hardware. All of which has me wondering how much longer things like 8237-type-DMA will be part of the PC platform. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 12:38:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:38:44 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512071025480620.08F37115@10.0.0.252> References: <004001c5fb48$f015ba20$0500a8c0@Gils6240> <200512071025480620.08F37115@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43972C34.8010705@bellatlantic.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/7/2005 at 10:11 AM Gil Carrick wrote: > -------------------snip snip------> > > I can understand MS wanting to deprecate a lot of the PC legacy features. > NT startup has to be one of the more complex computing tasks around and I > suspect that the folks in Redmond have envied Apple for a long time in not > having to accomodate all sorts of bizarre departures from the norm in > hardware. All of which has me wondering how much longer things like > 8237-type-DMA will be part of the PC platform. > > Cheers, > Chuck I'd say one of the misfeatures of PC is legacy. At some point despite the pain some artifacts of XT or even AT hardware needed to disappear as real. In an age of small ram being 256MB a DMA chip that can't address more than 65k is a bottleneck. Especially when you consider the size of page files, swapfiles and program size in general. If you doing a 32bit system then a 32bit DMA is required. Then once you have blistering performance from the hardware the software must use it. Then you can emulate/simulate older legacy stuff in a way that is not hurting system performance inside the OS. Allison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Dec 7 12:41:08 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 19:41:08 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512071741.jB7Hfqc1001732@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <439726A1.23667.4DF4F65C@localhost> <200512071741.jB7Hfqc1001732@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20051207194108.3a8f8c22.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:41:52 -0500 Brad Parker wrote: > and, when you look at the performance of 2.6 kernels it's pretty damn > good and (my opinion) scales better than pretty much everything other > than solaris. IRIX scales up to at least 1024 CPUs and multiple GB RAM per CPU in a single OS image. Gues from where Linux got the scalability? SGI, as they are on the way to replace IRIX with Linux... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 12:44:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:44:10 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <4396A4E9.5030000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512071044100726.09044224@10.0.0.252> What really smokes me is the insistence of certain applications on the use of X. For a low-CPU usage app that doesn't need graphics, X is a hideous waste of resources. Realplayer certainly doesn't need it for playing realaudio streams. I've discovered a little package called trplayer that was written for the seeing impaired that claims to provide the functionality of trplayer without X. It's kind of old, but I'm going to give it a try. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 7 12:49:43 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:49:43 -0000 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: <200512071435.jB7EZi08009139@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <002901c5fb5f$008813b0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Dennis Boone wrote: > A pinout for the BC27A cable appears (along with a bunch of other > unrelated stuff; search for LPV11) at: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html > > Perhaps this will give enough info on signal identity to help you > build the right cable. But the description says "This cable is designed to connect a line printer to any Data Products protocol parallel port _OTHER_ than the LPV11-SA" (emphasis added). I can find no LAV11 manuals but there is one LPV-11 manual around: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lpv11op1.pdf I think I borrowed it to scan, which is why I cannot find it right now. It may have a pinout in there. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 7 13:06:42 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:06:42 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:49:43 GMT.) <002901c5fb5f$008813b0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <002901c5fb5f$008813b0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200512071906.jB7J6gir015958@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > But the description says "This cable is designed to connect a line > printer to any Data Products protocol parallel port _OTHER_ than the > LPV11-SA" (emphasis added). Except I think that the emphasis needs to be on the "-SA" suffix, as the section does refer to the LPV11 with no suffix. As the wiring given is for a dataproducts, the correct hookup for a centronics interface would have to be worked out, but they are very similar. > I can find no LAV11 manuals but there is one LPV-11 manual around: > > http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lpv11op1.pdf > > I think I borrowed it to scan, which is why I cannot find it right > now. It may have a pinout in there. A real manual would, of course, completely obviate the problem. De From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 7 13:18:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 11:18:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <200512071918.LAA32408@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi It is an interesting article but I suggest that the leakage currents may be over stated. 1,000 ma at 500 Volts is 500 Watts. This is way too much for a capacitor. Even 1 ma at 500 volts is quite a bit more than most capacitors can handle for any length of time at 500 Volts. I would suggest that the translation from the original article may have replaces the micro symbol with a m instead of a u as is normally done. Things to consider are that there are two factors when reforming. There is the production of gases that is directly related to the current flow and then there is the power dissipated. This is voltage times current. Both must be considered. A 500 volt capacitor should never have more than 1 ma of current flow and should most likely be in the 100 ua range for much of the reforming. Low voltage capacitors can handle more power but become limited by the gases produced and not the power. 10 ma for a good sized can is about max. Smaller cans should have less current. A small 10 uF 30V cap shouldn't have more than 25 to 50 ua at most. It has been mentioned that one can use current limited supplies. I've not seen ay that would limit the current to a fine enough adjustment to be correct for reforming. A resistor is best. Always start with a lower voltage even if you have a resistor. The oxide coating in the capacitor is not evenly eroded. It has a number of locations that may be thinner. These need to be brought up to the level of the rest without over heating them locally. To determine when to bring the voltage up, watch the voltage drop across the limiting resistor. I recommend starting with a voltage of about 1/10 the rating and measuring the voltage. Each time the voltage is increased, never let the current go more than was seen at the beginning. This can be observed by watching the voltage drop on the resistor. Never start with more than 1/2 the rated voltage, regardless of the current limiting resistor. Always finish by bring the capacitor to the full operating voltage. One doesn't need to bring it to the rated value. Most of the methods mentioned here for current limiting protect the rest of the supply but not the capacitor. A lamp on the input leads will not do much to limit current at the levels needed to keep excess gas from building in the capacitor. Those that have had success have been luck rather than having a good procedure. Remember, excess gas will not show failure until some later date. The capacitor will seem to be OK but dry up over time because of a ruptured seal. Using a lamp on the input to a variac may not be too useful. The variac waste quite a bit of power. In order to get the variac to a useful operating level, the current limiting will be way beyond what is useful in protecting a capacitor while reforming. A series resistor at the capacitor is the only method I know that is truly safe for the capacitor! Dwight. >From: "woodelf" > >Joe R. wrote: > >> Q: How high of a voltage do you use the reform the caps? I'm wondering >>if it's necessary to apply full (or nearly full) rated voltage or if >>they're fully reformed at say 5 VDC. Has anybody done any testing in this >>area? >> >> >I assume the vorking voltage + some safety margin. >A quick search found this link on the web of a circuit to reform the caps. >http://www.vmars.org.uk/capacitor_reforming.htm From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 13:22:51 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:22:51 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43972C34.8010705@bellatlantic.net> References: <004001c5fb48$f015ba20$0500a8c0@Gils6240> <200512071025480620.08F37115@10.0.0.252> <43972C34.8010705@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <200512071122510526.0927ABAD@10.0.0.252> On 12/7/2005 at 1:38 PM Allison wrote: >Then once you have blistering performance from the hardware the software >must >use it. Then you can emulate/simulate older legacy stuff in a way that is >not hurting system performance inside the OS. Consider that few mobos now made have ISA slots and 8237 DMA isn't accessible from PCI. This leaves you with the veneered and generated old 765 floppy controller as the last vestige using the facility. I'm pretty sure that everyone involved would love to drop the ISA bridge and 765 and 8327 stuff and say "if you need a floppy, buy a USB drive". Yet Vista (at least at the last beta) still has legacy floppy support in it. As much as it's nice for those of us with old floppies to image and transfer, it's not worth the trouble for the general population. Time to start investigating what, if anything, can be hacked on current USB drives--some USB floppy controllers have downloadable user code via serial EEPROM. I think the old 34-pin floppy interface may be the next thing headed for the scrap heap of history. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Dec 7 13:31:16 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:31:16 -0600 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: <200512071906.jB7J6gir015958@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000301c5fb64$cb335ed0$6401a8c0@dementium> I've looked at that manual before posting, and it does not have much to work out from. All the names of the signals are different. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Building M8027 hookup > But the description says "This cable is designed to connect a line > printer to any Data Products protocol parallel port _OTHER_ than the > LPV11-SA" (emphasis added). Except I think that the emphasis needs to be on the "-SA" suffix, as the section does refer to the LPV11 with no suffix. As the wiring given is for a dataproducts, the correct hookup for a centronics interface would have to be worked out, but they are very similar. > I can find no LAV11 manuals but there is one LPV-11 manual around: > > http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lpv11op1.pdf > > I think I borrowed it to scan, which is why I cannot find it right > now. It may have a pinout in there. A real manual would, of course, completely obviate the problem. De From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 13:32:38 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:32:38 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051207194108.3a8f8c22.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <439726A1.23667.4DF4F65C@localhost> <200512071741.jB7Hfqc1001732@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20051207194108.3a8f8c22.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <439738D6.6040701@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:41:52 -0500 > Brad Parker wrote: > > >>and, when you look at the performance of 2.6 kernels it's pretty damn >>good and (my opinion) scales better than pretty much everything other >>than solaris. > > IRIX scales up to at least 1024 CPUs and multiple GB RAM per CPU in a > single OS image. > > Gues from where Linux got the scalability? SGI, as they are on the way > to replace IRIX with Linux... AIX scales pretty well too. Look at the System p5-595. Takes 2TB RAM without doing anything funky to the box. Also runs 64 multi-core POWER5 chips. Peace... Sridhar From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Dec 7 13:43:53 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:43:53 -0500 Subject: HP86B/HP85 PSU testing - where to start? Message-ID: <20051207194353.E0C4D2012BD4@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Regarding www.series80.org: Lyle Bickley wrote: > Forget my last comment re:login/passoword - I was using the Konquerer browser > - when I changed to the Firefox browser - all was O.K. (you do need a > login/password - but you are given them in Firefox's error message). Sorry about the authentication step, but it has slashed downloads from automated tools from my site. I find that this works much better than robots.txt because few (if any) robots are clever enough to look at the error page for the passwd. BTW the incantation is also present in the authentication window (but I guess nobody ever reads messages on pop-up windows anymore :-) **vp From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 7 13:45:34 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:45:34 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:31:16 CST.) <000301c5fb64$cb335ed0$6401a8c0@dementium> References: <000301c5fb64$cb335ed0$6401a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <200512071945.jB7JjYQD017038@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I've looked at that manual before posting, and it does not have much > to work out from. All the names of the signals are different. Ready is inverted between the two, I think. Both have the same basic data transfer signals. Dataproducts has forms handling stuff that's not in centronics. Pinouts for both are in various googlable places, including: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/centronics.html http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/dataproductsdsub50.html http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/decprinter.html You should be able to compare what's in the LPV11 manual to these and work out which are which. Then figure out the pin numbering schemes used in the LPV11 manual. De From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Dec 7 13:46:18 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:46:18 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> (Roger Merchberger's message of "Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:36:22 -0500") References: <0IQT00HEDZBVGM23@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <4391797E.8070104@gjcp.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512071946.jB7JkI99064207@lots.reanimators.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Pffft. Lifting concepts from Windows? You couldn't be further from the > truth on that one. Every WM I ever used had multiple desktops, OSX > just got 'em, and Winders has yet to have that. Apple's use of the "Dashboard" name in MacOS X suggests that everyone has forgotten the HP product of the same name from lo these 11 years ago. Which did multiple desktops on Win3.1 and made the 640x480 display on my Win3.1 notebook PC a lot more tolerable. I'm not arguing that it was a first, but there were ways to get that functionality on Windows, long enough ago for them to be on-topic here. -Frank McConnell From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 7 13:58:39 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:58:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512071946.jB7JkI99064207@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20051207195839.0651558098@mail.wordstock.com> > > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Pffft. Lifting concepts from Windows? You couldn't be further from the > > truth on that one. Every WM I ever used had multiple desktops, OSX > > just got 'em, and Winders has yet to have that. > Actually XP has the ability to do multiple desktops vis use of the PowerToys, but it seems like a real kludge... Cheers, Bryan From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 12:50:32 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:50:32 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 12/7/05 11:36 AM, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >> Comments on how well OSX handles this would be welcome. The most recent OS X systems are an install-everything type setup, with some minor optional stuff( Eg you can deselct printer drivers, and Xcode utils + x11 don't install by default ), However, you can just delete what you want out of the applications directory to clean it out. Also, you can remove language localizations to free up GIGS of space when you've got more apps installed. And again, MOST 'packages' are all self contained in folders with a .app extension, and what it litters about the system is usually easily found in ~/Library and /Library. I think it also installs the so-called 'bsd subsystem' by default (with no option in 10.4?) so that all your fanciful unix tools are there. Also, as to what someone said about not being able to peicmeal the OS, that's mostly true, however, like stated before, it's mainy an install and use system. There IS a way to tweak almost anything using the pref files, but good luck understanding half of them =] From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 7 14:30:18 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:30:18 -0500 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4397465A.5020604@sbcglobal.net> Cini, Richard wrote: > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > Any thoughts from the group? Here's my thoughts... First off,I'm a Linux/Unix newbie. I've tinkered with NetBSD a little on a VaxStation 3100, DEC Multia, PC, and a SparcStation LX. Easy to install and get running. Loved the fact that it works the same on all the different hardware. Never did try to get X windows running, except for on the Sparc. But that was easy. Played with Red Hat 6, and Suse 9 on 2 different IBM Stinkpads. Not bad. About 2 months ago, I made a full fledged, not looking back, jump to Ubuntu 5.04, "Hoary Hedgehog", on my work PC. Definitely enjoying the ease of use. Now, the only thing I need my Windows PC for is using our Access database, and syncing my Treo 600 with the company's MeetingMaker server. And I do that with the RDP client that came with Ubuntu. Summed up, I'd use NetBSD for server work, and Ubuntu (Debian based) for desktops. FWIW, the Ubuntu mailing list community does seem quite helpful. Download the Live CD and give it a whirl... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 14:30:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:30:43 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <0IR500MPNAAT3I1C@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Building M8027 hookup > From: Dennis Boone > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 14:45:34 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > I've looked at that manual before posting, and it does not have much > > to work out from. All the names of the signals are different. > >Ready is inverted between the two, I think. Both have the same basic >data transfer signals. Dataproducts has forms handling stuff that's >not in centronics. the LPV-11 was a upgrade and improved LAV-11. The LPV-11 has jumpers to handle things like parity, polarity of strobe to mention a few. All the manuals I have show the jumpers but do not give pinouts.. >You should be able to compare what's in the LPV11 manual to these and >work out which are which. Then figure out the pin numbering schemes >used in the LPV11 manual. They use an identical connector. TO sort out how to make a foreign cable you really need the printset for it. Either that or wire a DLV-11 serial card and use that to drive a serial interface printer. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 7 15:40:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:40:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071025480620.08F37115@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Dec 7, 5 10:25:48 am" Message-ID: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> > What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista > doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator > for Vista and we'll get to keep our old apps in some form. > > I can understand MS wanting to deprecate a lot of the PC legacy features. > NT startup has to be one of the more complex computing tasks around and I > suspect that the folks in Redmond have envied Apple for a long time in not > having to accomodate all sorts of bizarre departures from the norm in > hardware. All of which has me wondering how much longer things like > 8237-type-DMA will be part of the PC platform. They won't envy Apple for much longer. Based on the specs for Rosetta (the JIT PPC->x86 translator for the impending Intel Macs), it will only run PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps -- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm in Pittsburgh. Why am I here? -- Harold Urey, Nobel laureate ----------- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 7 17:15:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:15:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <200512072315.PAA06637@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I found the government reference. It is at: http://www.multi-volti.com/hb1131.pdf They mention using a lamp as a current limiter but as I stated earlier, lamps have changes in resistance with temperature. Unless the lamp is used in the intended voltage range, one can not depend on the resistance being close. They recommend reforming when stored for more than 3 years. They state that if the capacitor does not reform in 3 hours, it is considered bad. The values they show are for larger filter capacitors ( my guess as this is an old document ). They show 5 ma for axial and 10 ma for screw threaded radials. It should also be noted that they are not trying to save every capacitor, just put capacitors into condition for use. If one shorts, so be it. If you are trying to save capacitors, you might want to be a little more friendly to it. Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi > There is a government spec on reforming >capacitors that have been in storage for >military specs. I don't recall if I saw this >on this list or maybe one of the news groups. >Dwight > > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 7 17:22:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:22:52 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista >>doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator > > PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps > -- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. What bothers me is: How hard is it to include an emulator? Who cares if the emulator is 100x as slow as the real thing when you're running it on a machine that is capable of running OS X or Windows Vista? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 7 17:32:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:32:22 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista > >>doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator > > > > PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps > > -- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. > > What bothers me is: How hard is it to include an emulator? Who cares if the > emulator is 100x as slow as the real thing when you're running it on a machine > that is capable of running OS X or Windows Vista? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ I don't see the point of having so much legacy support in newer OS versions (it is more complicated and has more code to create bugs). If there is a need for such things then some company will develop a means of using your older software via an emulator. Besides what is so hard about keeping a legacy system in the house if you really need to run a 10 year old app on occasion? OS developers should concentrate on making their OS stable and reliable plus having good APIs, not in programming emulators and other add-ons. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 7 17:40:22 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:40:22 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207183444.04cdfa20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista >>>doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator > > >>PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps >>-- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. > >What bothers me is: How hard is it to include an emulator? I don't think it's a case of "how hard is it" but rather "how hard will it be to support?" If they don't support 68K apps, then when someone calls and says "My old app `zonk` doesn't work anymore" the support answer is "Upgrade. " instead of "Well, let's see.... how can we fix this..." for the next 3 hours. > Who cares if the emulator is 100x as slow as the real thing when you're > running it on a machine that is capable of running OS X or Windows Vista? Look at the heartburn that Winders users have when trying to run an ancient app, and the cruft that comes along for the ride to make it (kinda) happen. I think it's solely a support issue that they're trying to avoid by setting these limits.... but that's just a personal view, I just might be full of condensed milk on this. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 17:45:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:45:20 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR5005LAJB31391@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:22:52 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>What's really water under the bridge is 16-bit mode in Windows. Vista >>>doesn't support it, period. Maybe someone will write a 16-bit emulator > > >> PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps >> -- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. > >What bothers me is: How hard is it to include an emulator? Who cares if the >emulator is 100x as slow as the real thing when you're running it on a machine >that is capable of running OS X or Windows Vista? >-- Jim, It's real hard when the vendor(s) want you to buy office suite 2007 or whatever. Till someone (not a vendor) gets the emulator written the rest of will run it on classic hardware and software. "The only way to win the game is to not play." Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 7 17:53:27 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 15:53:27 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 1:40 PM -0800 12/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >They won't envy Apple for much longer. Based on the specs for Rosetta (the >JIT PPC->x86 translator for the impending Intel Macs), it will only run >PPC applications written for the G3 under Carbon. That means Classic apps >-- including 68K apps -- will probably die in the future. Personally I think there is a real opportunity for some software company here. I'm sure I'm not the only one with a dependance on old legacy 68k Mac OS apps. In fact the only app's that I use "Classic" support in 10.3.9 on my G5 2x2 to run are both 68k app's (ClarisDraw and the original "Master of Orion"). As long as someone can produce something that will run my legacy 68k apps well, and does it at an affordable price, I'll buy it. Basically I'd like something that allows easy integration of the App's with newer ones. It's probably going to be a year or two before I can think of getting an x86 Mac, so hopefully by then, someone will have come out with something. I'm also hoping that Virtual PC works more reliably, and faster. Worst case, I setup something like my 8500/180 running an old enough version of the OS so that I can also run "Warlords 2". BTW, I do own PC versions of both games, from before I got a Mac, however, they're limited to 640x480, while the Mac versions go up to something like 1152x870. Both games are also well on topic, but still two of my favorite games of all time. Hmmm, I just thought of another potential problem... I wonder how well my ADB-to-USB converter will work, I really don't want to give up the ADB Apple Extended II Keyboard I'm typing this on. They just don't make keyboards like this one anymore. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 7 18:11:45 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:11:45 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/05 16:36, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > Pffft. Lifting concepts from Windows? You couldn't be further from the > truth on that one. Every WM I ever used had multiple desktops, OSX just got > 'em, and Winders has yet to have that. As far as I'm concerned the winduhs desktop has and will always be a copy of the best bits of every other OS they can cram into it. Vista has already been mentioned as being MacOSX-R-Us and I'm sure the only reason the Linux desktop has grown into Windows-R-Us is to make it acceptable to the masses. (I could go on here about how much I like the SLAX desktop even though it's KDE on top of a Slackware based distro running off a USB key but I won't :o)....it's just....nice) > Oh, and there's Afterstep, FVWM (my favorite, and ontopic, it's ancient! > ;-) and for minimalistic sake, TWM... It's just that when most people can't $gods, I've just gone back 10 years to Ultrix on a DECstation when I was running TWM (tim's window manager?) since it was one of the defaults and I'd just managed to download and install fvWM only to discover how fantastic it was! Fans of VNC will be pleased to know the default desktop for a connection is TWM....or at least it is on my SuSE 9.1 webserver. > links -g www.google.com. Works with DirectFB and the SDL library. It looks > pretty darned good, and doesn't need X whatsoever. (I also have lynx for This I have to see! What can I run it on? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 7 18:27:31 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:27:31 +0000 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/12/05 23:53, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Worst case, I setup something like my 8500/180 running an old enough > version of the OS so that I can also run "Warlords 2". BTW, I do own > PC versions of both games, from before I got a Mac, however, they're > limited to 640x480, while the Mac versions go up to something like > 1152x870. Both games are also well on topic, but still two of my > favorite games of all time. My only take on this that springs to mind is why should you expect a computer company to continue supporting older hardware and software beyond a certain timeframe unless they explicitly say their current product is 100% compatible with their 10/15/20 year old product? It's almost like expecting a car manufacturer to still support manual wind-down windows and non-central locking because you happen to like manual windows and door locks you can activate individually. Surely everything forces you to move on at a certain point in time, the only reason it should be an issue is if the company concerned decides to charge an arm and a leg to migrate to newer product or uses unreasonable tactics. No names mentioned there. Hang on, one of my Edison bulbs has burnt out, I'll be back in an hour when I've changed it :) Also, VW will be out next week to fit solid tyres to my 3 year old car because I prefer solid tyres. I've always felt they ran better than these new-fangled pneumatic ones. In the meanwhile, if you NEED to run old apps why not use old kit to do it? /ducks and runs away very fast! Oh, did I mention this? -> :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 7 18:19:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hp plotter In-Reply-To: <43963FB7.2040209@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 6, 5 06:49:43 pm Message-ID: > >>Be warned that some people on classiccmp have very unusual test gear :-) > >> > >> > >> > Well use what ever you like as long as it keeps the MAGIC smoke inside. :) At least it helps me to determine why said magic smoke escaped in the first place. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 19:26:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:26:49 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> Message-ID: <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> On 12/7/2005 at 6:32 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >I don't see the point of having so much legacy support in newer OS versions >(it is more complicated and has more code to create bugs). If there is a >need for such things then some company will develop a means of using your >older software via an emulator. Besides what is so hard about keeping a >legacy system in the house if you really need to run a 10 year old app on >occasion? OS developers should concentrate on making their OS stable and >reliable plus having good APIs, not in programming emulators and other >add-ons. ...and that's the point of Vista not having 16-bit support, I suppose. NT/2K/XP doesn't emulate 16 bit at the instruction level, it switches the processor to protected 16-bit operation and deals with interrupt vector mapping and other nonsense. Heck, 16 bit doesn't run as fast as 32-bit or 64-bit mode on the X86 CPUs anyway--I've wondered for a long time why PCs still boot up in it. In an ironic sense of justice, MS has had to support most of the design mistakes it made in Windows 3.0 and MS-DOS by providing support for old applications. Intel has had to live with the instruction set of the 8080 all these years, only being allowed to extend it, but keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: mov cl,9 mov dx,offset HWMes call 5 mov cl,0 call 5 HWmes db 13,10,"Hello World$" Now, is that crufty or what? Maybe it's time to move on. We can always emulate what we need to. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 7 19:45:18 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:45:18 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <007701c5fb99$0b5f4c10$bddb1d18@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:26 PM Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > On 12/7/2005 at 6:32 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > > >I don't see the point of having so much legacy support in newer OS > versions > >(it is more complicated and has more code to create bugs). If there is a > >need for such things then some company will develop a means of using your > >older software via an emulator. Besides what is so hard about keeping a > >legacy system in the house if you really need to run a 10 year old app on > >occasion? OS developers should concentrate on making their OS stable and > >reliable plus having good APIs, not in programming emulators and other > >add-ons. > > ...and that's the point of Vista not having 16-bit support, I suppose. > NT/2K/XP doesn't emulate 16 bit at the instruction level, it switches the > processor to protected 16-bit operation and deals with interrupt vector > mapping and other nonsense. Heck, 16 bit doesn't run as fast as 32-bit or > 64-bit mode on the X86 CPUs anyway--I've wondered for a long time why PCs > still boot up in it. > > In an ironic sense of justice, MS has had to support most of the design > mistakes it made in Windows 3.0 and MS-DOS by providing support for old > applications. Intel has had to live with the instruction set of the 8080 > all these years, only being allowed to extend it, but keeping things like > the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch of do-nothing > instructions like MOV DL,DL. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I think Win2k server is the last MS OS that supports sharing directories with old Mac AppleTalk networks. For my smallish network that OS will last me a long time. So instead of complaining the latest and greatest doesn't support my setup I just keep using what works. Both Intel and MS didn't have to support their older designs, they did it because the product worked and sold reasonable well, and any major change in product that is incompatible with the older things you sold allows people to chose what product they want to buy all over again (if you need new apps you might as well consider a different OS/chip while changing). I think having a major commercial success is what stops innovation at those companies, if you have 5% market share you can pretty much try anything new since it will not matter as much. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 7 20:03:10 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:03:10 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Chuck Guzis declared on Wednesday 07 December 2005 20:26: > keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch > of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. FYI, that most certainly doesn't just "do nothing." It updates the flags based on the contents of the DL register, and you could do a conditional jump based on the results. > Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: > > mov cl,9 > mov dx,offset HWMes > call 5 > mov cl,0 > call 5 Huh? Do you mean this? MOV AH, 9 MOV DX, HWMes INT 21h MOV AH, 0 INT 21h Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 7 20:05:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:05:45 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051207210545.127ed3a3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:27:31 +0000 Adrian Graham wrote: > On 7/12/05 23:53, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > Worst case, I setup something like my 8500/180 running an old > > enough version of the OS so that I can also run "Warlords 2". > > BTW, I do own PC versions of both games, from before I got a > > Mac, however, they're limited to 640x480, while the Mac > > versions go up to something like 1152x870. Both games are > > also well on topic, but still two of my favorite games of all > > time. > > My only take on this that springs to mind is why should you > expect a computer company to continue supporting older hardware > and software beyond a certain timeframe unless they explicitly > say their current product is 100% compatible with their 10/15/20 > year old product? It's almost like expecting a car manufacturer > to still support manual wind-down windows and non-central > locking because you happen to like manual windows and door locks > you can activate individually. > It's not a matter of 'meeting the requirement' or else for the manufacturer. It's a matter of satisfying a customer and holding onto market share. I happen to prefer manual windows and non-central locking, and won't buy a car with electronic locks. That is my choice and car makers who want to sell a car to me will offer it. Much the same is true with Microsoft. They want to hold onto their legacy customers, in fact leveraging that legacy is a big part of how they've held onto and controlled the market. There come points at which it's probably to Microsoft's advantage to abandon legacy features, and that's when they do it. But they and a lot of the rest of us know that's really one of the only things they have going for themselves. > Surely everything forces you to move on at a certain point in > time, the only reason it should be an issue is if the company > concerned decides to charge an arm and a leg to migrate to newer > product or uses unreasonable tactics. No names mentioned there. > > Hang on, one of my Edison bulbs has burnt out, I'll be back in > an hour when I've changed it :) Also, VW will be out next week > to fit solid tyres to my 3 year old car because I prefer solid > tyres. I've always felt they ran better than these new-fangled > pneumatic ones. > > In the meanwhile, if you NEED to run old apps why not use old > kit to do it? > > /ducks and runs away very fast! > > Oh, did I mention this? -> :o) > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home > computer collection? > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 7 20:14:57 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 7, 5 03:53:27 pm" Message-ID: <200512080214.SAA13660@floodgap.com> > Personally I think there is a real opportunity for some software > company here. Well, the situation isn't nearly that dire; there's Basilisk II and SheepShaver, both of which do have native OS X builds. But you have to run them within an emulator, which is kludgey and not nearly as integrated -- if not elegant -- as Classic is. Personally, I wonder why Apple decided to stop. I guess Steve wants to kill the Old Ways once and for all. I suspect that was a bigger motivation for the Intel switch than the promise of more powerful chips. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. ------------------------------------- From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 7 20:20:54 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:20:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 07, 2005 09:03:10 PM Message-ID: <20051208022054.8A0E67302C@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Patrick Finnegan once stated: > > Chuck Guzis declared on Wednesday 07 December 2005 20:26: > > keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch > > of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. > > FYI, that most certainly doesn't just "do nothing." It updates the flags > based on the contents of the DL register, and you could do a conditional > jump based on the results. > > > Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: > > > > mov cl,9 > > mov dx,offset HWMes > > call 5 > > mov cl,0 > > call 5 > > Huh? Do you mean this? > > MOV AH, 9 > MOV DX, HWMes > INT 21h > MOV AH, 0 > INT 21h No, he meant what he wrote. It's the CP/M compatibility layer built into MS-DOS. Address 5 of the PSP (Program Segment Prefix) contains a long jump to MS-DOS, and uses CL for the function code instead of AH. -spc (@#$@#!# thought I forgot my MS-DOS arcana ... ) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 7 20:18:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 21:18:54 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> References: <4395AA67.5010000@jcwren.com> <003e01c5fa83$248e1c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051206190318.5ce85171.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512061647080279.052A3473@10.0.0.252> <43963440.5040308@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512061724260967.054C5D4A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051207211854.61bd5839.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:24:26 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/6/2005 at 6:00 PM woodelf wrote: > > >... I also feel safe with new cap rather than a patched one. > > Maybe not--a couple of years ago there was a minor scandal about > bad Taiwan-origin electrolytics causing numerous motherboard > failures (I have one of those boards here): > > http://www.niccomp.com/taiwanlowesr.htm > I've had a few of those boards, too. I think I may have a part or two salvaged off them still. Not that much worth salvaging on that era of mobo, though. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 20:32:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:32:54 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> On 12/7/2005 at 9:03 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Chuck Guzis declared on Wednesday 07 December 2005 20:26: >> keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch >> of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. > >FYI, that most certainly doesn't just "do nothing." It updates the flags >based on the contents of the DL register, and you could do a conditional >jump based on the results. With all due respect, I suggest that you review your X86 instructions and their effect on flags. Try running this little bit of code under your favorite debugger (DEBUG is fine) and have a gander at the flags register: xor ax,ax mov dl,-1 mov dl,dl int 3 Now, if your point of view held, the condition code should show a nonzero negative (signed) value. In fact, they show a zero positive value (i.e. the results of the XOR AX,AX). In fact, moves, be they register to memory, register to register or memory to register or memory to memory do not affect condition code bits. Else why have a nutty instruction like JCXZ? You coiuld just MOV CX,CX and jumpt on the zero result... >> Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: >> >> mov cl,9 >> mov dx,offset HWMes >> call 5 >> mov cl,0 >> call 5 > >Huh? Do you mean this? > >MOV AH, 9 >MOV DX, HWMes >INT 21h >MOV AH, 0 >INT 21h Nope, I mean what I said--try it. This little tidbit goes all the way back to the time before DOS 1.0, when some level of compatibility with CP/M applications was implemented. Notice that I didn't say "CP/M-86", which uses int 224 to make system calls (which will not work under MS-DOS or Windows of any flavor). I suspect this is an artifact of old SC-DOS/QDOS. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 7 21:03:16 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:03:16 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4397A274.8040508@jetnet.ab.ca> Adrian Graham wrote: >My only take on this that springs to mind is why should you expect a >computer company to continue supporting older hardware and software beyond a >certain timeframe unless they explicitly say their current product is 100% >compatible with their 10/15/20 year old product? It's almost like expecting >a car manufacturer to still support manual wind-down windows and non-central >locking because you happen to like manual windows and door locks you can >activate individually. > > Well I still like them! As a passenger about half the time I never can exit since the car I am in figures I don't need to exit. Manual windows are still a must if you don't have A/C,. >Surely everything forces you to move on at a certain point in time, the only >reason it should be an issue is if the company concerned decides to charge >an arm and a leg to migrate to newer product or uses unreasonable tactics. >No names mentioned there. > >Hang on, one of my Edison bulbs has burnt out, I'll be back in an hour when >I've changed it :) > So ALL OF NEW YORK CITY goes dark while you replace it. > Also, VW will be out next week to fit solid tyres to my 3 >year old car because I prefer solid tyres. I've always felt they ran better >than these new-fangled pneumatic ones. > > > I like blue-green model T's the best. http://www.users.bigpond.com/cool386/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 21:09:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:09:45 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR500IAJSRQY4G7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:05:45 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:27:31 +0000 >Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 7/12/05 23:53, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> > Worst case, I setup something like my 8500/180 running an old >> > enough version of the OS so that I can also run "Warlords 2". >> > BTW, I do own PC versions of both games, from before I got a >> > Mac, however, they're limited to 640x480, while the Mac >> > versions go up to something like 1152x870. Both games are >> > also well on topic, but still two of my favorite games of all >> > time. >> >> My only take on this that springs to mind is why should you >> expect a computer company to continue supporting older hardware >> and software beyond a certain timeframe unless they explicitly >> say their current product is 100% compatible with their 10/15/20 >> year old product? It's almost like expecting a car manufacturer >> to still support manual wind-down windows and non-central >> locking because you happen to like manual windows and door locks >> you can activate individually. >> > >It's not a matter of 'meeting the requirement' or else for the >manufacturer. It's a matter of satisfying a customer and holding >onto market share. I happen to prefer manual windows and >non-central locking, and won't buy a car with electronic locks. >That is my choice and car makers who want to sell a car to me will >offer it. > >Much the same is true with Microsoft. They want to hold onto >their legacy customers, in fact leveraging that legacy is a big >part of how they've held onto and controlled the market. There >come points at which it's probably to Microsoft's advantage to >abandon legacy features, and that's when they do it. But they and >a lot of the rest of us know that's really one of the only things >they have going for themselves. Therin lies the truth of the matter. It's why the VAX11/780 happend, DGs machine Eclipse, and many others. The investment of software and the desire for "customer retention" are often drivers of technology choices. Its basic to even chipsets be they 8080 to 8088 then on to 80286 and Motorola did the same with 6800, 6809 and 68K. Granted in many cases at the chip level they are not binary compatable the idea being everyone gets to keep what they learned and has an upgrade path. I don't think for one second that was missed in business 101. However, legacy can be an albatross, ones neck may be on the line if the choice is wrong. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 7 21:15:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:15:40 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR500IE2T1L5BQ2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:32:54 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: >>> >>> mov cl,9 >>> mov dx,offset HWMes >>> call 5 >>> mov cl,0 >>> call 5 >> >>Huh? Do you mean this? >> >>MOV AH, 9 >>MOV DX, HWMes >>INT 21h >>MOV AH, 0 >>INT 21h > >Nope, I mean what I said--try it. This little tidbit goes all the way back >to the time before DOS 1.0, when some level of compatibility with CP/M >applications was implemented. Notice that I didn't say "CP/M-86", which >uses int 224 to make system calls (which will not work under MS-DOS or >Windows of any flavor). I suspect this is an artifact of old SC-DOS/QDOS. And it works on W98 too. I know for a fact that old DOS DBASEII used it along with FCB support (another CP/Mism) with one caveat, the target drive or partition have to be less tha 500mb! I know because I was running a job costing system in DBASEII on a PIII running W98se and that was the trick. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 22:14:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:14:15 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR500IAJSRQY4G7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR500IAJSRQY4G7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512072014150517.010A6FB9@10.0.0.252> On 12/7/2005 at 10:09 PM Allison wrote: >Therin lies the truth of the matter. It's why the VAX11/780 happend, >DGs machine Eclipse, and many others. The investment of software >and the desire for "customer retention" are often drivers of >technology choices. Its basic to even chipsets be they 8080 to 8088 >then on to 80286 and Motorola did the same with 6800, 6809 and 68K. >Granted in many cases at the chip level they are not binary compatable >the idea being everyone gets to keep what they learned and has an >upgrade path. I don't think for one second that was missed in >business 101. I remember the Intel sales guy pitching the 8086 at us because we had an 8085. The nut of his pitch was that Intel had an automatic conversion system that could take our ISIS-II 8080 assembly and convert it to run flawlessly on the 8086/8088. I asked if I could bring a sample down to the sales office and have a go at the converter. I'd bring a self-contained program that generated verifiable results on the 8085 which could give me a benchmark both on the performance and accuracy of the conversion. What I brought was a BCD floating point package that approximated pi by Euler's method. Not the most efficient, but something that could produce a verifiable result (at least to 14 decimal places). About 3000 lines of assembler, but then the package did more than the basic 4 functions. Well, the converter cranked up and we had a cup of coffee while he told me how wonderful the 8086 was. I'd done some reading myself and wasn't exactly sold on the idea of segment arithmetic, particularly when it came to addressing elements of a structure larger than 65K, but he showed me that it was "only" 7 instructions to compute an address... Three hours and much coffee later, the converter was still grinding. I went home after the sales guy said that he'd let it run all night. My call to him the next morning revealed that the converter had crashed badly. He asked if he could take my code to an applicaton engineer who might be able to figure out the converter bug. About 4 weeks later, I got a call saying that the converter could now handle the whole shebang. I went over to the sales office with my stopwatch and we got down to business. The result on a 5 MHz 8086 took about twice as long to run as it did on an 8085-5 and was more than twice the size. But the result checked out--I suspect that the applications guy made sure of that. The big reason for the poor performance was that the code was very tight and condition code behavior had to be scrupulously preserved (e.g. on an 8085, a DCX doesn't affect flags, but an 8086 DCR does, an 8085 DAD affects only the carry flag, but an 8086 ADD affects all flags, etc.). Heckuva way to make a sale. I thought that this would cinch the argument for any other 16-bit processor (I liked the 68K a whole lot), but since we had a VP from Intel on the board, we wound up with early (and very buggy) samples of the 80186. I was very disappointed. BTW, the selfsame floating point package wound up in Supercalc. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 7 22:22:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <20051208022054.8A0E67302C@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051208022054.8A0E67302C@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20051207201702.K13608@shell.lmi.net> > > > Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: > > > mov cl,9 > > > mov dx,offset HWMes > > > call 5 > > > mov cl,0 > > > call 5 > > Huh? Do you mean this? > > MOV AH, 9 > > MOV DX, HWMes > > INT 21h > > MOV AH, 0 > > INT 21h > No, he meant what he wrote. It's the CP/M compatibility layer built into > MS-DOS. Address 5 of the PSP (Program Segment Prefix) contains a long jump > to MS-DOS, and uses CL for the function code instead of AH. . . . and, you need to move the ADDRESS of the message into DS:DX, NOT the first two bytes of the message into DX. MOV DX, OFFSET HWMes you can also end the program with a jump (or call) to location 0, or even a RET without CALL (there's a 0 on the stack), since the PSP starts with CD 20 (INT 20h) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 7 22:25:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:25:10 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512072025100669.01146EE9@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 12:27 AM Adrian Graham wrote: >Hang on, one of my Edison bulbs has burnt out, I'll be back in an hour when >I've changed it :) Adrian, are you aware that here in the US we still use Edison (screw) base lamps? One of Edison's carbon-filament creations would fit very nicely in the reading lamp by my desk. I don't know if it's still there, but I recall an Edison lamp installed at a fire station in Livermore, CA that's been burning for many decades. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 7 22:40:09 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051207203811.W13608@shell.lmi.net> > > keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a bunch > > of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. > FYI, that most certainly doesn't just "do nothing." It updates the flags > based on the contents of the DL register, and you could do a conditional > jump based on the results. NO, it doesn't. But OR DL,DL or AND DL,DL would. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Dec 7 22:45:42 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:45:42 -0600 Subject: IRIX (Was RE: besl Linux distro) Message-ID: <148d87d99b2d400986dd761f25e4874f@valleyimplants.com> Unfortunately, it seems that the end of IRIX is creeping closer- I was just poking around on the SGI website and it looks like they've dropped the big MIPS graphic systems (Onyxes) Linux is a fine system, but IRIX is very nice, too, and it's nice to have multiple sources of ideas to draw from (Indigo Magic is a pretty slick desktop, among other things SGI did.) The big advantage of Linux over xBSD looks to be filesystems- Linux has JFS and XFS. P.S.- I do know about 5dwm.org, and I look forward to seeing it. From unibus at gmail.com Wed Dec 7 22:56:39 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:56:39 +1100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 27, Issue 79 In-Reply-To: <200511281802.jASI0Gtf070852@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200511281802.jASI0Gtf070852@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 02:14:13 -0800 > From: William Maddox > Subject: Available: 8" Vydec compatible floppy disks > > I have a box of 10 Memorex "FD VI" Vydec-compatible > 8" floppy disks. These are single-sided, double-density > disks with hard-sectored index holes around the periphery > of the disk (on the outside, not near the center hole). > They are labelled as compatible with the Memorex 651 drive. > Note that these are not the more common 32-sector format, > or the even more common soft-sectored variety. As far as > I know, these are useful only for Vydec word processors, > a very early WYSIWYG WP system. > Early versions (PDP11/05, /10) of Monash University's MONECS used Memorex 651 drives and the floppy disks should be compatible. Regards, Garry From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 7 23:21:28 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 00:21:28 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512080021.28836.pat@computer-refuge.org> Chuck Guzis declared on Wednesday 07 December 2005 21:32: > On 12/7/2005 at 9:03 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Chuck Guzis declared on Wednesday 07 December 2005 20:26: > >> keeping things like the DAA instruction intact and supporting a > >> bunch of do-nothing instructions like MOV DL,DL. > > > >FYI, that most certainly doesn't just "do nothing." It updates the > > flags based on the contents of the DL register, and you could do a > > conditional jump based on the results. > > With all due respect, I suggest that you review your X86 instructions > and their effect on flags. Try running this little bit of code under > your favorite debugger (DEBUG is fine) and have a gander at the flags > register: > > xor ax,ax > mov dl,-1 > mov dl,dl > int 3 I'll admit it's been a while since I've bother to do much x86 assembly, but I don't doubt you're right. I think I might have been thinking more of "and dl, dl", which I'm pretty sure ought to update the flags. Pretty much any assembly language has useless constructs like that, though, just because it makes the instruction set easier to implement (and sometimes, compilers easier to write). For example, in RISC architectures, register 0 is generally fixed to read 0. When you would normally do stuff like: mov r1,r2 you can also do mov r0,r2 or even mov r0, r0 (using syntax there the matching intel syntax > Now, if your point of view held, the condition code should show a > nonzero negative (signed) value. In fact, they show a zero positive > value (i.e. the results of the XOR AX,AX). In fact, moves, be they > register to memory, register to register or memory to register or > memory to memory do not affect condition code bits. Else why have a > nutty instruction like JCXZ? You coiuld just MOV CX,CX and jumpt on > the zero result... Sure there's a reason. JCXZ is one instruction, and (probably) uses up less code space than the other. You could "AND CX,CX" and do a JZ afterwards to do the same thing. > >> Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: > >> > >> mov cl,9 > >> mov dx,offset HWMes > >> call 5 > >> mov cl,0 > >> call 5 > > > >Huh? Do you mean this? > > > >MOV AH, 9 > >MOV DX, HWMes > >INT 21h > >MOV AH, 0 > >INT 21h > > Nope, I mean what I said--try it. I don't have a Windows system to try it on. I could probably find something running DOS (or OS/2) to try it on, assuming DEBUG is installed on the machine... I vaguely remember the PCB "jump to DOS" vector, but never used it when I wrote code (for the same reason I never used an FCB to touch files.. probably just too young :). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 7 23:52:35 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:52:35 -0600 Subject: Cromemco software available Message-ID: <4397CA23.6000503@mdrconsult.com> Does anybody have a working Cromemco with 5.25" SSSD floppy drive[s]? I finally made it out to pick up my Z-2D, and it came with a lot of floppy diskettes. As it's going to be awhile before I bring up the Z-2D to boot - it hasn't been powered up in many years, so I'll be cleaning and then powering it up in stages - I thought I'd go ahead and image the diskettes. I've spot-checked a couple with 22Disk and they seem to have valid data, so I'm going to try my hand at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. I'd like for someone with a working system to try the images and see if they're bootable. Some of the diskette labels are totally incomprehensible to me, but here's a list (almost all hand-labeled): Cromemco CDOS SYSTEM DISK Cromemco 16K BASIC Cromemco Z-2D Test Disk 1 OF 2 CDOS 1.7 & Gen. Utils incl Copy5 [CopyS?] CDOS & Utils vers. 1.7 incl drivers (2.36 cdosgen this or other utils) 2.17 Utilities Backup CDOS Ver 2.58 Boot Z80 Assembler Deadsource Backup Z80 Assembler Backup Z80 Assembler FORTRAN IV FORTRAN IV Backup FORTRAN Files FORTRAN Disk (Steve) Word Processor w/screen edit Structured BASIC 16K BASIC Deadsource Coblink & Rel Progs ** F) .COB Files (Disk 2) Backup Appsadd Working Copy OK TO BOOT HAS HARD DISK CDOS VER. 2.58 Dir Cop.dat Mailing List Rev 07 w/CDOS 2.36 Payroll System Libraries MICROEMACS Source DS Boot Disk Z-2D Screen Editor for Soroc 120 VCALC, LCALC, Search Subroutines Disk Yes, it does have a Cromemco Hard Disk. I'll be looking to suck the data off that soon, too, if it's alive. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 8 00:08:54 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:08:54 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:27 AM +0000 12/8/05, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 7/12/05 23:53, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> Worst case, I setup something like my 8500/180 running an old enough >> version of the OS so that I can also run "Warlords 2". BTW, I do own >> PC versions of both games, from before I got a Mac, however, they're >> limited to 640x480, while the Mac versions go up to something like >> 1152x870. Both games are also well on topic, but still two of my >> favorite games of all time. > >My only take on this that springs to mind is why should you expect a >computer company to continue supporting older hardware and software beyond a >certain timeframe unless they explicitly say their current product is 100% >compatible with their 10/15/20 year old product? It's almost like expecting >a car manufacturer to still support manual wind-down windows and non-central >locking because you happen to like manual windows and door locks you can >activate individually. If you'll note, I'm not expecting Apple to provide this support, I'm hoping a 3rd party will provide it. >Surely everything forces you to move on at a certain point in time, the only >reason it should be an issue is if the company concerned decides to charge >an arm and a leg to migrate to newer product or uses unreasonable tactics. >No names mentioned there. My problem is that one of the key application I use that requires 68k and was dropped by Claris (aka Apple's App's division of the 90's), the last new version came out sometime around 1995. There isn't a better app, and it wasn't until this last year that there were any apps out there that can read the data files. >In the meanwhile, if you NEED to run old apps why not use old kit to do it? > >/ducks and runs away very fast! Lack of space. My space for legacy HW is taken up with a couple of PDP-11's and a VAX. Though I must confess my Alpha is fast falling into the legacy category :^( If I could I'd have an Amiga, Apple ][, and Commodore 64 setup around here, but I don't have the space. >Oh, did I mention this? -> :o) It's a good thing you did :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 8 00:17:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 22:17:31 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512080214.SAA13660@floodgap.com> References: <200512080214.SAA13660@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:14 PM -0800 12/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Personally I think there is a real opportunity for some software >> company here. > >Well, the situation isn't nearly that dire; there's Basilisk II and >SheepShaver, both of which do have native OS X builds. But you have to >run them within an emulator, which is kludgey and not nearly as >integrated -- if not elegant -- as Classic is. I'll have to look at SheepShaver, I've not heard of it. Last I looked, Basilisk II isn't really what I'm after, though it might be fine for the games. >Personally, I wonder why Apple decided to stop. I guess Steve wants to kill >the Old Ways once and for all. I suspect that was a bigger motivation for >the Intel switch than the promise of more powerful chips. I don't have to wonder why they stopped, I've seen the writing on the wall for a while now. How many people run Classic app's under Mac OS X? I'm under the impression that most users don't even bother with installing the classic emulation. A perfect example of Apple ditching legacy support is Classic Appletalk. It wasn't in 10.0, and I don't think it was in 10.1, it was in 10.2 and 10.3, BUT, they removed it from 10.4. Once they'd added it in, how much trouble was it to keep it in there???? Granted, for most people this didn't cause problems, but it's caused one person I know of to move to Linux, and it caused me to have to spend some serious time upgrading Samba on my VMS server, as I use Appletalk to allow my Mac to access my VMS box. BTW, I'm back on 10.3 and probably will be for a while, but that's because I think 10.4 is a waste of resources, and 10.3 does all I need. Until I need to run an app that requires 10.4, I don't think I'll be upgrading (and I bought 10.4 the day it came out)! As for why Apple is switching to Intel, it's my *personal* belief it's for their laptops. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 01:07:00 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:07:00 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512072025100669.01146EE9@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072025100669.01146EE9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4397DB94.7020204@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/8/2005 at 12:27 AM Adrian Graham wrote: > > >>Hang on, one of my Edison bulbs has burnt out, I'll be back in an hour > > when > >>I've changed it :) > > > Adrian, are you aware that here in the US we still use Edison (screw) base > lamps? One of Edison's carbon-filament creations would fit very nicely in > the reading lamp by my desk. I don't know if it's still there, but I > recall an Edison lamp installed at a fire station in Livermore, CA that's > been burning for many decades. You could say that. The 4W GE light bulb in question hasn't been lit continuously, but the same bulb hasn't blown since it was manufactured in 1901. It even has a web presence! http://www.centennialbulb.org/ Peace... Sridhar From david at thecoolbears.org Thu Dec 8 01:06:38 2005 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 23:06:38 -0800 Subject: 6809 Flex Message-ID: <000401c5fbc6$18a54d70$0301010a@euclid> Anyone have a copy (5-1/4 or 3-1/2) of flex os for swtpc 6809? From millercmp at keyways.com Thu Dec 8 03:32:22 2005 From: millercmp at keyways.com (millercmp at keyways.com) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 4:32:22 -0500 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <05120804322243.7b073.55935518@keyways.com> Here is a pinout for making a cable to connect an M8027 module to a standard Centronics 36 pin connector. We have used this cable on many of our in-house RT-11 systems and Epson-style printers. In addition to being a DEC dealer, we are a hobbyist in the areas of RT-11, OpenVMS, Oregon Software Pascal-2. Thanks. Mitch Miller Keyways, Inc. Centronics Compatible Cable for the DEC LPV11 Module R. Miller 10-26-89 LPV11 Centronics Compatible 40 Pin Berg Connector 36 Pin Male Connector --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- 1 1 --------------------- --------------------- 2 19 --------------------- --------------------- 3 6 --------------------- --------------------- 4 24 --------------------- --------------------- 5 7 --------------------- --------------------- 6 25 --------------------- --------------------- 7 - 8 No Connection -- --------------------- --------------------- 9 3 --------------------- --------------------- 10 21 --------------------- --------------------- 11 2 --------------------- --------------------- 12 20 --------------------- --------------------- 13 5 --------------------- --------------------- 14 23 --------------------- --------------------- 15 8 --------------------- --------------------- 16 26 --------------------- --------------------- 17 4 --------------------- --------------------- 18 22 --------------------- --------------------- 19 - 20 No Connection -- --------------------- --------------------- 21 10 --------------------- --------------------- 22 18 --------------------- --------------------- 23 \ > Tied Together -- 24 / --------------------- --------------------- Centronics Compatible Cable for the DEC LPV11 Module Continued LPV11 Centronics Compatible 40 Pin Berg Connector 36 Pin Male Connector --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- 25 11 --------------------- --------------------- 26 29 --------------------- --------------------- 27 - 36 No Connection -- --------------------- --------------------- 37 9 --------------------- --------------------- 38 27 --------------------- --------------------- 39 - 40 No Connection -- --------------------- --------------------- NOTE: Pin 1 of the 40 pin Berg Connector should be inserted into position VV of the LPV11 connector. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 8 02:08:02 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:08:02 +0000 Subject: Cromemco software available In-Reply-To: <4397CA23.6000503@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051208121418.RCVR11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Does anybody have a working Cromemco with 5.25" SSSD floppy drive[s]? > > I finally made it out to pick up my Z-2D, and it came with a lot of > floppy diskettes. As it's going to be awhile before I bring up the Z-2D > to boot - it hasn't been powered up in many years, so I'll be cleaning > and then powering it up in stages - I thought I'd go ahead and image the > diskettes. > > I've spot-checked a couple with 22Disk and they seem to have valid > data, so I'm going to try my hand at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. I'd > like for someone with a working system to try the images and see if > they're bootable. Hi Doc, I have a working Z-2D with dual SSSD floppy drives (ZPU, 4FDC, 4x 16KZ). I have some other Cromemco systems in different configurations as well. I would love to obtain copies of the software that you have. (And I'll be able to figure out any problem that ImageDisk might present). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 8 02:10:54 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 08:10:54 +0000 Subject: 6809 Flex In-Reply-To: <000401c5fbc6$18a54d70$0301010a@euclid> Message-ID: <20051208121710.RDXU11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Anyone have a copy (5-1/4 or 3-1/2) of flex os for swtpc 6809? I have the SWTPC 6800 and 6809 system disks (which includes FLEX) posted on my site in ImageDisk format. Look under Disks/Software-Images near the bottom of the main page. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From djg at pdp8.net Thu Dec 8 06:42:05 2005 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:42:05 -0500 Subject: How to load ADVENT on PDP-8? Message-ID: <200512081242.jB8Cg5u29205@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Not sure if this was resolved. I think the adventure on the diagpack2.rk05 was built for running off a floppy. It will not run directly from the rk05 image. The one on this image will run directly from it with RUN RKB0:ADVENT ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05 It was built without EAE since my EAE wasn't working right at the time so should work on any machine. If you wish to put adventure on a different image/media follow these instructions http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html/ADVENT.DC?act=file;fn=images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05;blk=2243,9,1;to=auto Start from the EXECUTION step since the files needed for the earlier steps no longer exist. If you are moving between an emulator and a real PDP-8 make sure that you disable things like EAE when building that you don't have on the real PDP-8. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 07:13:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:13:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 7, 5 10:17:31 pm" Message-ID: <200512081313.FAA19268@floodgap.com> > > Well, the situation isn't nearly that dire; there's Basilisk II and > > SheepShaver, both of which do have native OS X builds. But you have to > > run them within an emulator, which is kludgey and not nearly as > > integrated -- if not elegant -- as Classic is. > > I'll have to look at SheepShaver, I've not heard of it. Last I > looked, Basilisk II isn't really what I'm after, though it might be > fine for the games. It's fine for limited tasks. SheepShaver is the PPC side of things; it can actually cover both purposes, of course, using the PPC->68K ROM emulator. I use it occasionally when I need to be in "real OS 9" but don't want to reboot into OS 9. > I don't have to wonder why they stopped, I've seen the writing on the > wall for a while now. How many people run Classic app's under Mac OS > X? I'm under the impression that most users don't even bother with > installing the classic emulation. My two recent Mac conversions haven't, no. They're happy with Carbon and Cocoa apps. > A perfect example of Apple ditching legacy support is Classic > Appletalk. It wasn't in 10.0, and I don't think it was in 10.1, it > was in 10.2 and 10.3, BUT, they removed it from 10.4. Once they'd > added it in, how much trouble was it to keep it in there???? > Granted, for most people this didn't cause problems, but it's caused > one person I know of to move to Linux, and it caused me to have to > spend some serious time upgrading Samba on my VMS server, as I use > Appletalk to allow my Mac to access my VMS box. BTW, I'm back on > 10.3 and probably will be for a while, but that's because I think > 10.4 is a waste of resources, and 10.3 does all I need. Until I need > to run an app that requires 10.4, I don't think I'll be upgrading > (and I bought 10.4 the day it came out)! Actually, my desktop is still on 10.2 ... on purpose. My file server runs 10.3, and my laptop runs 10.4. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From Jeff1989 at aol.com Sun Dec 4 22:44:10 2005 From: Jeff1989 at aol.com (Jeff1989 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:44:10 EST Subject: HP Portable Vectra CS Model 20 Message-ID: Mr. Feldman, I realize that your email below was four years ago. However, it just appeared in a search for this computer model which I collect Thank you. Jeff Marshall (_jeff1989 at aol.com_ (mailto:jeff1989 at aol.com) ) ------------------------------------- HP Portable Vectra CS Model 20 Feldman, Robert _Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com _ (mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org?Subject=HP%20Portable%20Vectra%20CS%20Model%2020&In-Reply-To=) Fri Jun 29 08:56:52 CDT 2001 * Previous message: _data migration _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/174604.html) * Next message: _Old stuff found + help identifying... _ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/174545.html) * Messages sorted by: _[ date ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/date.html#174542) _[ thread ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/thread.html#174542) _[ subject ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/subject.html#174542) _[ author ]_ (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/author.html#174542) ____________________________________ I recently found an HP Portable Vectra CS Model 20 on top of a garbage container in the alley. I'm offering it to anyone who will pay for shipping (weighs about 15-20 pounds) or who can pick it up in Chicago. It lacks the battery pack, which apparently is where the external power (also missing) plugs in, so I do not know if it works. Otherwise, it appears to be in good condition. It has one 3.5" floppy and a hard drive of unknown size. Reply to _Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com._ (http://dewey.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk) Bob Feldman From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Mon Dec 5 08:52:55 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:52:55 -0500 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <1112.192.168.0.2.1133566917.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1112.192.168.0.2.1133566917.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <43945447.7040001@autonoma.edu.co> Witchy wrote: > On Fri, December 2, 2005 12:47 pm, Cini, Richard said: > >>On my PC at home, although I have "legacy" ports on my Shuttle XPC, I >>don't >>use them. I have a USB scanner and color printer. The laser printer is >>attached to the network though a Netgear print server. The DV_cam connects >>through FireWire and I use a card reader for the Memory Sticks from my >>Sony camera. > Same here apart from the firewire stuff since I don't have anything that > uses it. >>I personally have not had a problem with USB but maybe I'm not looking >>hard >>enough :-) > > I love USB - So do I, but my last laptop purchase was more influenced by availability of all standard ports rather than graphics or even CPU speed. I ended up buying a model that I'm sure is going to be discontinued soon. But USB-based serial ports are unreliable for me. I need to connect reliably to older development systems as well (microcontroller, dsp, PLC, burners, lab instruments) and cannot afford not to have a real serial port and a real parallel port. Of course, the laptop I chose also has IR, Firewire, USB, bluetooth, WiFi, LAN... it was the only Dell model that came standard with all of that. Funny; I had zero flexibility once I decided that I wanted all of those ports. Carlos. From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Mon Dec 5 08:53:08 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:53:08 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43932F2F.2000908@oldskool.org> <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <20051204143653.586715d1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43945454.8060907@autonoma.edu.co> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:51:57 -0800 (PST) > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>Update: I did snag the SE/30 from work. Thanks to all for >>>the advice. >> >>I think you'll enjoy it. :) > > I'm now enjoying the SE that I picked up yesterday. I have a CD > burner installed on it and am figuring out just what software will > run on it. Toast, of course. Before Nero existed, I used a Mac IIci and Toast for all my CD burning needs. I never knew of anything close in the Windoze world. Sure, you there are a few unix utilities for that, but at the time Toast was the only sane GUI-based program. carlos. From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Mon Dec 5 08:53:15 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:53:15 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <439361DC.6050403@gjcp.net> References: <200512041851.KAA14502@floodgap.com> <43935527.9040803@oldskool.org> <439361DC.6050403@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4394545B.2070101@autonoma.edu.co> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Well if you've got a Mac Classic you can boot it with Splat-Alt-X-O and > it will come up in OS 6. > > You can then copy the system and finder files to a floppy. I seem to remember doing this; that system folder did not work elsewhere; it seems to be specific to the Classic. carlos. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 20:55:58 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:55:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC Message-ID: <20051206025558.68943.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Nice acquisition. Vesta also designed the 80188 based robot brain from Radio Electronics circa 1987. I was successful in obtaining the FORTH and BASIC/BIOS rom images (theyre still around). It took 2 tries. It pays to be persistent. I dont imagine your kit came with the circuit board artwork? And is there a floppy interface (if so, which chip?). --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > I competed in the horserace called eBay last week and acquired what to me is a wonderful piece of hardware- A commercially produced 8088 single board computer that uses ALL TTL logic except for the 8088 processor itself. It has a compliment of 8 bit input and output ports made with 20-pin TTL chips, and the docs include full schematics. I can now adapt the design to other 8088 SBC computer ideas I have. It has a BASIC interpreter in ROM and the console is over a serial port. It apparently can burn EPROMs on-board and has about five open sockets for adding code. It's all on about a 5"x7" card and hails from the year 1992. It has, uh, all the power of a current-generation PIC from Microchip, but in a much neater package. > > It's a Vesta Technology, Inc. SBC88A. __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 5 21:44:39 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 19:44:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dreamcast was Re: Market for old macs? Message-ID: <20051206034439.19954.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I have some sort of web browsing software cd for the Dreamcast if anyone has a need for it. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 5:49 AM -0800 12/5/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >> > TCP/IP would be easier if the broadband adapter didn't command > >> $150-$200 on > >> > >>> epay. > >> > >> > >> I got mine for $80 and considered that a bargain. It was, of course, > >> almost > >> as much as the stupid DC cost new. > >> > >> It's still probably tied for "favourite console" with my Intellivision. > > > > > > The Dreamcast *IS* my favorite console, what other console has had such > > a high percentage of good arcade ports? I really wish they'd kept it > > alive, instead of killing it off early in the game. > > I liked gaming on the Dreamcast, but I *really* like NetBSD + X11 on the > Dreamcast. > > Peace... Sridhar __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Dec 5 21:48:44 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 22:48:44 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Chassis... In-Reply-To: <43948E35.70200@gmail.com> References: <43948E35.70200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051205224436.03391b18@boff-net.dhs.org> try google groups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware they always have someone with a spare. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:00 PM 12/5/2005, you wrote: >Hi. > >I'm looking for the chassis to a PS/2 Model 95A server. I don't >need the motherboard, just the chassis and power supply, complete >with the front panel display and drive bay covers. > >Anyone know where I might be able to get one for not too much money? > >Peace... Sridar -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005 From trag at io.com Tue Dec 6 00:40:44 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:40:44 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512060305.jB635Ypd091150@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512060305.jB635Ypd091150@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:05 -0500 >From: Scott Stevens >On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:59:42 -0500 >"James Fogg" wrote: > >> > James Fogg wrote: >> > > My interests stop at the "classic" Macs, of which the SE30 is the >> > > height of engineering achievement (in my opinion). >> > >> > Why? I know a bit of the classic Mac engineering history >> > thanks to Andy's retro website/book, but I know nothing of the SE30. >> >> OK, neither do I (it's too late to argue). It is the last of the classic >> Macs and has the greatest number of features and capabilities. >> > >Actually it isn't the last of the Classic Macs in a certain sense. Apple > produced several other inferior compact Mac machines that aren't nearly > as expandable as the SE/30. The Macintosh Classic is an example of this, if > I'm not mistaken. The Classic can't sport anywhere near as much RAM as > the SE/30. The SE/30 is essentially the IIcx with the NuBus slots sawn off and a little (very little) video RAM and video circuitry added. It was a nice machine. 16 MHz 68030 with fully 32 bit wide data and address paths. Maximum RAM is 128 MB with eight 16MB 30 pin SIMMs. Color capability is in the ROM, but requires one of the somewhat rare video cards (SE/30 PDS slot) and goes to an external monitor. The follow up models which had similar form factors were far inferior. The Mac Classic really ought to be compared to the Mac Plus or Mac SE (somewhat superior to the former and inferior to the latter). The only thing the Classic had going for it is that Mac OS 6.03 is in the ROM, so you can boot with no available disk. It *should* have had the Mac Portable memory map, so that it could address 8 MB of RAM instead of only 4MB (24 bit address space) and a speed bump from 8 to 16 MHz, but Apple didn't do that. The Classic II was meant to be a follow up to the SE/30 but while it has a 16MHz 68030 its maximum RAM is 10 MB and its data path is only 16 bits wide. Bleah. The Color Classic has the same problem, though it does have a color screen. The Color Classic II was better with 33MHz 68030 and 32 bit data path. The Max RAM was still limited to only 36MB. However, that's a 72 pin SIMM socket with 4MB on the motherboard and Apple never acknowledged that any of their 72 pin RAM machines would address better than 32 MB per slot. Nevertheless many of their machines will work with 64MB or even 128 MB 72 pin SIMMs, so the CCII may have a much higher max RAM than reported by Apple. If that's the case, then the CCII was a worthy successor to the SE/30. Jeff Walther From terry at terryking.us Tue Dec 6 01:51:21 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 08:51:21 +0100 Subject: 6502 OS?? In-Reply-To: <200512060517.jB65HNtB094344@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051206085017.03605ea8@mail.terryking.us> At 11:17 PM 12/5/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > I have the same problem. I've got a nice little homebrew 8MHz 6502-based > > micro sitting next to me with an EPROM emulator hooked up. I've got EhBASIC > > running on it, now I'm stuck in a "Now what? Write a DOS?" situation. Anyone tried OS-65D, early disk operating system from Ohio Scientific?? Not sure about the hardware dependencies.... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Dec 6 16:52:35 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 16:52:35 -0600 Subject: Building M8027 hookup Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10C6949E@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> OK, I'm trying to build myself a hookup for an M8027(LPV11) to run to my distribution panel. I've done some reading, and it is clear that this is a Centronics compatible card, so I have the right one. Does anyone know the pinout for this device? I'm confused. I know you can use other printers with this card, and I'm just looking to do raw text to an old Panasonic dot matrix printer - but I don't know what signal is what. As usual, any help is appreciated. TIA Julian From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Dec 6 18:05:24 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:05:24 -0500 Subject: sad to report... Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it from the employees for personal use? -John Boffemmyer IV -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005 From young at ecn.purdue.edu Wed Dec 7 06:15:05 2005 From: young at ecn.purdue.edu (Mike Young) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:15:05 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/44 system reference card ? Message-ID: <4396D249.4080902@ecn.purdue.edu> All this talk about the PDP-10 reference card reminds me that I have misplaced my copy of the PDP 11/44 system/console reference card. It was a white trifold arrangement, as I recall, printed on both sides. Anyone got one they'd be willing to scan in? Mike Young young at ecn.DIESPAMDIEpurdue.edu From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Dec 7 15:36:45 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:36:45 +0000 Subject: Opening a classic Mac In-Reply-To: <056f0b70cc0744b5885099d1ec8a1335@valleyimplants.com> References: <056f0b70cc0744b5885099d1ec8a1335@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <439755ED.2000903@gifford.co.uk> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Another thing that can work is one of the "stationary > clips" with the round spring (not the ones with the > blued spring steel shaped a bit like a triangular prism). In Britain, these are called "Bulldog Clips". No idea if that's a brand name, nor what they're called elsewhere. The spring holds the jaws shut, and the handles are squeezed like pliers to open them. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From John.Skowyra at hp.com Thu Dec 8 06:58:00 2005 From: John.Skowyra at hp.com (Skowyra, John) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:58:00 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/725 anyone? Message-ID: <8B0CDDDAF0085E42BF788EF6D76337DA074B982A@tayexc14.americas.cpqcorp.net> Do you still have the 11/725 I need the tu58 boot tape. Please respond.. Thanks John J Skowyra Hewlett Packard Manufacturing Engineering Support Engineering Support Services Phone: (603)-884-3397 Fax: (603)-884-3940 Cell: (603)-566-5694 Email: John.Skowyra at hp.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 09:11:23 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 OS?? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20051206085017.03605ea8@mail.terryking.us> from Terry King at "Dec 6, 5 08:51:21 am" Message-ID: <200512081511.HAA16136@floodgap.com> > Anyone tried OS-65D, early disk operating system from Ohio Scientific?? Not > sure about the > hardware dependencies.... Tell me a little about it. Is there source somewhere? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Ted Kennedy had driven a VW, he would be President now. ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 09:14:47 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:14:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43945454.8060907@autonoma.edu.co> from Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez at "Dec 5, 5 09:53:08 am" Message-ID: <200512081514.HAA18506@floodgap.com> > > I'm now enjoying the SE that I picked up yesterday. I have a CD > > burner installed on it and am figuring out just what software will > > run on it. > > Toast, of course. Before Nero existed, I used a Mac IIci and Toast > for all my CD burning needs. Which version of Toast? Under which version of Mac OS? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 8 09:28:53 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:28:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4397DB94.7020204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > You could say that. The 4W GE light bulb in question hasn't been lit > continuously, but the same bulb hasn't blown since it was manufactured > in 1901. There are actually a number of ancient bulbs around the country that refuse to die. Pretty neat, anyway. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 8 09:35:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:35:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: > my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system > for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. > they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ > don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they > think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get > instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it from > the employees for personal use? The problem tends to be the employees reselling the surplus. And after that, little underground networks within the company form up to make sure that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain employees. You can see where this is going. Yes, it sucks, and some bad eggs in your company probably spoiled it for everyone. Also, it seems to me that every so often someone comes up with new VT420s, anyway... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Dec 8 10:03:53 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:03:53 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <200512070110.RAA09119@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512070110.RAA09119@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20051208105838.030525c0@mail.netsync.net> Here's the link I was given last year from one of my military electronics collector lists: http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Programs/MilSpec/ListDocs.asp?BasicDoc=MIL-HDBK-1131 Even covers capacitor rated working voltages down to 5 volts, which is applicable to our solid-state needs (read: lower voltage supplies). Most other cap reforming articles apply to antique radio and other vacuum tube (valve) electronics, including the early tube computers, that have operating voltages in the hundreds. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 08:10 PM 12/6/2005, Dwight K. Elvey said something like: >Hi > There is a government spec on reforming >capacitors that have been in storage for >military specs. I don't recall if I saw this >on this list or maybe one of the news groups. >Dwight Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 8 10:20:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:20:15 +0000 Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43985D3F.5040408@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Random failure of the weekend was a UC3844 IC in a switchmode power supply - >>>> with a very loud bang, the entire top of the chip blew off, but there's no >>>> *obvious* sign of any other failure within the supply. >>> This deos not mean there are no other component failurs. This sort of >>> thing is very common actially. >> I must have been lucky... all the ones I've had to fix before have had failed >> in other ways... > > You have been very lucky. Until now :) > I have never had a chopper transistor fail open-circuit. casualties so far are both choppers (IRF740's), the UC3844, and a couple of resistors (they were hidden by the heatsink before; rather obviously cremated now I've removed it!) The UC3844's current sense line got a blast of mains down it which is what killed it... I'll test other components in the area though in case they've failed with no visible effects. cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 10:22:21 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:22:21 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43985DBD.5050103@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>You could say that. The 4W GE light bulb in question hasn't been lit >>continuously, but the same bulb hasn't blown since it was manufactured >>in 1901. > > > There are actually a number of ancient bulbs around the country that > refuse to die. Pretty neat, anyway. There are, but I believe this one is the oldest. There's another in NYC, another in Texas and yet one more in New Jersey, but those three were all installed in 1908, for second place. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 8 10:28:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:28:45 +0000 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43985F3D.3020604@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system >> for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. >> they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ >> don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they >> think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get >> instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it from >> the employees for personal use? > > The problem tends to be the employees reselling the surplus. And after > that, little underground networks within the company form up to make sure > that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain employees. You can > see where this is going. If it's not too late, see if you can get a local museum on board to do the negotiating; maybe it will get the point across that the idea is to preserve this stuff - not sell it on to make a fast buck. cheers Jules From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Dec 8 10:47:30 2005 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:47:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 735 Workstation fun. Message-ID: John A. said: > I just found an HP Apollo PA-RISC 735/125 (1992) in very good condition. > > It's another example of HP's ridiculously clean under-the-hood design, > and probably could almost be shown to industry outsiders as an object > of art. > > I have to ask: Anyone have a copy of HP-UX that will run on this? > I understand that NetBSD won't use the UltraSCSI and I like to keep > the original configurations together anyway. There was a place on the net somewhere that was selling HP-UX 10.20 install media for $30. It'll take some time to dig it up since I purchased it years ago. All you should have to pay for is the media. I personally own a HP 715/100, and I was informed that even owning the machine was all that was required to use HP-UX (you didn't have to buy a license, ownership granted you the license). So keep an eye out for the install media because you do not need to purchase a $700 license. I think the last version to run on the 700 series was 10.20, but I may be mistaken. eBay often has media for 11.0, but the price is astronomical. You might also consider a Debian linux install. I've loaded my 715/100 up with Sarge (Debian 3.1) and it runs great, if a little slow. Rock solid and stable, and all the 715 hardware is supported. Not sure about the 735s. -Jeff jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Dec 8 11:27:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:27:04 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <43985F3D.3020604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000a01c5fc1c$9e048f70$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hmm, the closest local computer museum would be ours here in the MARCH club. John -- see my off-list reply please. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: sad to report... William Donzelli wrote: >> my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system >> for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. >> they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ don't you >> hate it when the bean counters get involved because they think the >> scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get instead of doing >> their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it from the employees >> for personal use? > > The problem tends to be the employees reselling the surplus. And after > that, little underground networks within the company form up to make > sure that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain > employees. You can see where this is going. If it's not too late, see if you can get a local museum on board to do the negotiating; maybe it will get the point across that the idea is to preserve this stuff - not sell it on to make a fast buck. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 11:38:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:38:13 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512080021.28836.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> <200512080021.28836.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200512080938130443.03EA81F6@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 12:21 AM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Sure there's a reason. JCXZ is one instruction, and (probably) uses up >less code space than the other. You could "AND CX,CX" and do a JZ >afterwards to do the same thing. Well, not exactly. JCXZ doesn't affect the condition codes, nor does it rely on them. And on most x86 platforms, starting with the 386, it tends to be slower than something like a AND CX,CX JZ sequence (which does affect the status flags). So why does it exist? I belive it was intended for loop control when condition code preservation is important. Note that there's no JCXNZ instruction, nor a specific test-and-jump on any other register. It's a problem with instruction sets that implement result codes as a simple condition code register. The same arithmetic that couints interations affects the condition codes that one might also need for searching or computation. That's probably the reason that the increment and decrement instructions don't bother the carry flag and that the 16-bit increments and decrements on the 8080 didn't bother any of the condition codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and how) the half-carry flag, for example. Cheers, Chuck From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 8 12:23:55 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:23:55 -0500 Subject: sad to report... References: Message-ID: <064d01c5fc24$b34b35c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > > my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system > > for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. > > they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ > > don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they > that, little underground networks within the company form up to make sure > that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain employees. You can > see where this is going. Make friends for when things come up in the future. 99% of the time decomissioned scrap (excepting possibly mainframes and things on a <10 year devaluation) is considered worthless and all you need is friends in the right places. To paraphrase William, things will go to certain employees, where you are the certain employee. BTW, don't spend too much time doing this, your priorities have to be on your job or the bean counters will give you another kind of surprise. John A. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 12:36:18 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:36:18 +0000 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0512081036v7e0f7e7et@mail.gmail.com> On 01/12/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > All: > > I'm thinking of ditching Windows totally on my desktop at home > as I build my next upgraded x86-bsed PC. So, I wanted to take a poll of the > group for a recommendation on which Linux distro to use. I downloaded Fedora > Core, Slackware, FreeBSD, Unbuntu and Linspire. > > Any thoughts from the group? Time for my usual 5min instant distro summary. I'm going to make some assumptions: - you want a GUI desktop machine - you want some basic productivity apps & Internet clients - you have a reasonably modern x86 PC that would run W2K or XP happily You have some choices to make. Do you mind paying for it? Do you want to play around, fiddle, try different things out, or do you want it to just work so you can get on with using your computer? If you don't mind paying, then: - for a do-everything loads-of-toys distro, try Mandriva or SuSE. Both are very complete, easy GUI-based distros with good admin tools. - for a simple Windows-replacement, try Xandros. If you don't want to pay, or are happy to put up with a slightly limited free eval version, then: - for the do-everything types, again, Mandriva or SuSE - for a simple quick clean GUI desktop, try Ubuntu. Small, fast, does the job. Based on Debian so you can hack around with it if you so choose, changing desktop environments, window managers, whatever you like. That covers it. Other contenders: - for all-in-one GUI solutions, there's also Mepis, which some people really rate. - if you don't mind running something that is essentially in eternal beta-test and never stabilizes, Fedora Core is allegedly all right. Only Red Hat fans tend to like it. If you don't want a GUI desktop, but want to assemble your own OS from the pieces, then: - Slackware is the oldest currently-maintained distro. Nice simple BSD-style init, fairly minimal and thus fast, but setup and package management are a bit paleolithic. The package management is being modernised, though, but is still based around tarballs. If you don't know what a tarball is, you don't want Slackware. - Debian is arguably the One True Linux. Old, stable, reliable, the best package management around, massive library of software. You choose the edition: stable version (mission-critical boxes: changes very slowly, essential bugfixes only), unstable or testing (constantly shifting, where new stuff is tried out.) Needs configuring and building entirely by hand - expect to write lots of config files. Learning curve like the north face of the Eiger. - Gentoo. For the sort of person who glues a bodykit onto a small boring hatchback. Compile everything from scratch so you have the exact compiler optimisations for your individual machine. Can be very fast as a result. Requires considerable knowledge to get working. Anything else is, frankly, marginal, or costs thousands and is intended for corporate servers. Avoid Linspire: pretty, easy, but no security & no bundled apps; defaults to running as 'root' at all times, all apps & extras cost money. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From ceby2 at csc.com Thu Dec 8 12:30:20 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:30:20 +0000 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <200512081800.jB8I038u034272@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Folks -- Has anyone tried creating mainframe compatible DASD with commodity components? I now have an S/390, but am trying to pare it back to a fighting weight (one that'll fit the electrical limitations of my flat). The DASD are monster 14" platters with 400MB capacity each -- 9332-Model400. And the system requires 5 of them with its current configuration. I was wondering if there was a way to adapt the system to more modest disk types much way as has been done with some of the recent PDP re-implementations with flash and 2.5" IDE. Any thoughts? While we're at it, I'm still interested in offloading two of my IO cabinets and a bunch of COM controller feature cards. I haven't had any takers so far. Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect -------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. -------------------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 12:55:01 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:55:01 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <1156.192.168.0.2.1133568244.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <43905199.3060205@yahoo.co.uk> <200512020936380391.05465961@10.0.0.252> <1156.192.168.0.2.1133568244.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0512081055g2cd63735l@mail.gmail.com> On 03/12/05, Witchy wrote: > Have you seen reports of the new Acorn RiscOS machine that is a > cassette-sized metal box containing everything you need to do mac mini > type stuff? Well worth checking out and I wish I could remember the URL of > the article I was reading! It'll be buried somewhere in > www.theregister.co.uk or www.silicon.com or www.theinquirer.net :) That'd be my piece on the Inquirer, then. :?) Glad you liked it. http://theinquirer.net/?article=27857 (Also see http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1496.html ). Neat little box. Expensive, though, and only USB1. Hi, BTW. We met at last year's Classic Gaming Expo in Croydon, as I recall. I was interested in your VTech Laser 200, 'cos I wrote the wikipedia article on it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTech_Laser_200 ... but I'd never seen actual hardware before. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 13:10:47 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <575131af0512081055g2cd63735l@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Dec 8, 5 06:55:01 pm" Message-ID: <200512081910.LAA15674@floodgap.com> > > Have you seen reports of the new Acorn RiscOS machine that is a > > cassette-sized metal box containing everything you need to do mac mini > > type stuff? Well worth checking out and I wish I could remember the URL of > > the article I was reading! It'll be buried somewhere in > > www.theregister.co.uk or www.silicon.com or www.theinquirer.net :) > > That'd be my piece on the Inquirer, then. :_) Glad you liked it. Wow! Any chance of this being sold in the USA? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you don't have a nasty obituary you probably didn't matter. -- F. Dyson - From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 13:24:40 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:24:40 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> Colin Eby wrote: > > > > Folks -- > > Has anyone tried creating mainframe compatible DASD with commodity > components? I now have an S/390, but am trying to pare it back to a > fighting weight (one that'll fit the electrical limitations of my flat). > The DASD are monster 14" platters with 400MB capacity each -- > 9332-Model400. And the system requires 5 of them with its current > configuration. I was wondering if there was a way to adapt the system to > more modest disk types much way as has been done with some of the recent > PDP re-implementations with flash and 2.5" IDE. Any thoughts? > > While we're at it, I'm still interested in offloading two of my IO cabinets > and a bunch of COM controller feature cards. I haven't had any takers so > far. DASD isn't a requisite of using a mainframe. Just use minidisks. DASD is mostly used for data storage. Although there are a lot of setups out there that IPL from DASD, I would venture to say that most setups IPL from minidisk. Not that most setups IPL that often. Which type/model S/390 do you have? BTW, a 9332 DASD is significantly older than any S/390. It came out around 1985 or 1986. It's not much of a match for the S/390, considering the disks hold less than a GB apiece. It even pre-dates ES/9000 by a few years. I would guess that they were most popular with later-generation S/370's like the 3084 and 3090, and maybe even with smaller compatible machines like the 4381. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 13:39:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:39:02 -0800 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512081910.LAA15674@floodgap.com> References: <200512081910.LAA15674@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200512081139020096.04591D03@10.0.0.252> n 12/8/2005 at 11:10 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Wow! Any chance of this being sold in the USA? I don't know if it would sell, given the high price point in direct competition with the better-peripherally-equipped Mac Mini at USD$ 499 msrp. Heck, my modem (which cost USD$60) has more memory, flash and a StrongARM processor in addition to USB, wireless and 10base100 ethernet. Doesn't have video, though, but I can telnet to it. I'd love to get my hands on one of those USD$100 PCs that proposed for deployment in India. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 13:47:03 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 19:47:03 +0000 Subject: Mac Mini In-Reply-To: <200512081910.LAA15674@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0512081055g2cd63735l@mail.gmail.com> <200512081910.LAA15674@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0512081147v165621e8k@mail.gmail.com> On 08/12/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > That'd be my piece on the Inquirer, then. :_) Glad you liked it. > > Wow! Any chance of this being sold in the USA? I'm sure Advantage6 will ship it anywhere you like! :-) -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 8 13:48:02 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:48:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: > BTW, a 9332 DASD is significantly older than any S/390. It came out > around 1985 or 1986. It's not much of a match for the S/390, > considering the disks hold less than a GB apiece. It even pre-dates > ES/9000 by a few years. I would guess that they were most popular with > later-generation S/370's like the 3084 and 3090, and maybe even with > smaller compatible machines like the 4381. DASD to the 9370 (the bomb), correct? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 13:57:40 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:57:40 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43989034.3080100@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>BTW, a 9332 DASD is significantly older than any S/390. It came out >>around 1985 or 1986. It's not much of a match for the S/390, >>considering the disks hold less than a GB apiece. It even pre-dates >>ES/9000 by a few years. I would guess that they were most popular with >>later-generation S/370's like the 3084 and 3090, and maybe even with >>smaller compatible machines like the 4381. > > > DASD to the 9370 (the bomb), correct? Sounds right. It's the right size machine. The only thing I don't know is when the 9370 was withdrawn. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 14:03:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:03:23 -0500 Subject: Bionic Desk Message-ID: <4398918B.4020300@gmail.com> I know it's a long shot, but would anyone happen to know someone who has an IBM S/32 "Bionic Desk" available? Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 8 14:05:51 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:05:51 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> References: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 December 2005 14:24, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > DASD isn't a requisite of using a mainframe. Just use minidisks. > DASD is mostly used for data storage. Although there are a lot of > setups out there that IPL from DASD, I would venture to say that most > setups IPL from minidisk. Not that most setups IPL that often. Pardon my ignorance, but how do you have minidisks without some DASD to put them on? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 8 14:08:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:08:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SMPSU IC explosion... (UC3844) In-Reply-To: <43985D3F.5040408@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 8, 5 04:20:15 pm Message-ID: > > I have never had a chopper transistor fail open-circuit. > > casualties so far are both choppers (IRF740's), the UC3844, and a couple of > resistors (they were hidden by the heatsink before; rather obviously cremated > now I've removed it!) > > The UC3844's current sense line got a blast of mains down it which is what > killed it... > > I'll test other components in the area though in case they've failed with no > visible effects. In particular check any snubber capacitors and diodes connected to the primary of the chopper transformer. If these fail, the result is often shorted chopper transistors. Also, in some designs, a shorted rectifier diode on the secondary side will kill the choppers. -tony From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Dec 8 14:15:19 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:15:19 -0000 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? References: <200509072253.j87MrKBb015916@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <020001c5fc34$30950a60$0200a8c0@geoff> Just catching up with these posts :>) My old Quarndon cat. gives it as a Write while Read RAM with o/c O/Ps. 32x2. It has a logic level schematic ( quite small ) if that's any use- I can get it scanned and enlarged. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:53 PM Subject: Re: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Here's the pinout. I have no idea what some of the signals are for (does > >it, for example, have separate write-enable inputs for the 2 bits?), but > >it may be better than nothing. > > Thanks - I know the pinout. I think this ram would allow some sort of > simultaneous read/write (not dual port, just overlapped) but I don't > know how it works. > > >The NatSemi DM86S21 might be an equivalent, I can find no > >cross-references to it in other memory databooks, though. > > Huh. I could not find anything on the 86S21, but I don't have national > books. Anyone else? > > -brad > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 06/09/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/195 - Release Date: 08/12/05 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 14:44:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:44:12 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43989B1C.4000204@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 08 December 2005 14:24, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>DASD isn't a requisite of using a mainframe. Just use minidisks. >>DASD is mostly used for data storage. Although there are a lot of >>setups out there that IPL from DASD, I would venture to say that most >>setups IPL from minidisk. Not that most setups IPL that often. > > > Pardon my ignorance, but how do you have minidisks without some DASD to > put them on? There's actually a couple of ways. You can do it through the front-end, and you can do it over a SAN. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 14:45:21 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:45:21 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43989B61.2050904@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 08 December 2005 14:24, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>DASD isn't a requisite of using a mainframe. Just use minidisks. >>DASD is mostly used for data storage. Although there are a lot of >>setups out there that IPL from DASD, I would venture to say that most >>setups IPL from minidisk. Not that most setups IPL that often. > > > Pardon my ignorance, but how do you have minidisks without some DASD to > put them on? Oh. I almost forgot. You can also boot VM from tape and create a virtual minidisk in storage. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 8 15:33:09 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:33:09 +0000 Subject: Well, that's just typical! Amiga woes..... Message-ID: While I was running disk salvage tools (DiskSalv) on my newly acquired Amiga 4000 it locked up and gave out head sticky type noises so I thought 'right, back up as much as possible on a more modern machine NOW' So, everything set with scratch disk to back up onto, knoppix booted to allow me to use dd and 4 of the 6 partitions on the Amiga disk put onto the other drive in ISO format......suddenly, the power goes off!!!!! Swear. More than once. Get the machine back online and BOTH disks have died on me. Backup drive won't power up and the Amiga drive no longer responds to the gentle 'power up please' tap I've been giving it. I'm not best pleased* Does anyone know someone with Kickstart 3.1 ROMs that they're willing to sell for less than the leeches on ebay? I've had a generous offer of OS3.9 but I still need the ROMs.... Cheers! *understatement. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 15:37:44 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:37:44 -0600 Subject: Well, that's just typical! Amiga woes..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have you looked online at any of the many Amiga retailers like http://www.softhut.com or any other places like that? And what price qualifies as a "leech"? > > Does anyone know someone with Kickstart 3.1 ROMs that they're willing to > sell for less than the leeches on ebay? I've had a generous offer of OS3.9 > but I still need the ROMs.... From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 15:39:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:39:31 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4398A813.4020903@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: > > mov cl,9 > mov dx,offset HWMes > call 5 What is "call 5"? I'm having a brain fart right now and can't parse this. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 15:53:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:53:45 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4398AB69.40600@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Else why have a nutty instruction like JCXZ? Hey, don't knock my favorite "nutty" 8088 opcodes! :-) It's because of opcodes like jcxz, xchg, repne cmpsw, add, and others that make 8088 asm coding so much fun 25 (!) years later. One of my favorite things to do when I have "free" time is to take some old 8088 code and speed it up with judicous use of stuff like that. Some of the earliest games for the 5150 were ports of 6502 or Z80 games and rewriting certain loops can speed the game up 500% or more. Some people like Sudoku puzzles, I like optimizing 8088 code for speed. Call me crazy 8-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 8 15:53:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:53:44 +0000 Subject: Well, that's just typical! Amiga woes..... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4398AB68.8000800@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > Get the machine back online and BOTH disks have died on me. Backup drive > won't power up and the Amiga drive no longer responds to the gentle 'power > up please' tap I've been giving it. Hmm. You could pull the lid on the Amiga drive and coax it into life by poking at the spindle; I've done that before with good results. Just obviously be in a position to start copying data immediately. Strange that the backup drive died though. There might be a surface mount fuse on the drive that's gone, but it's an unusual failure. cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 15:55:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:55:58 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512080938130443.03EA81F6@10.0.0.252> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <200512072103.10251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512071832540764.00ADA6C8@10.0.0.252> <200512080021.28836.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512080938130443.03EA81F6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4398ABEE.3000701@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, > particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and > how) the half-carry flag, for example. The "half-carry flag"? Huh? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 15:58:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:58:13 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398A813.4020903@oldskool.org> References: <200512072140.NAA14834@floodgap.com> <43976ECC.6090404@oldskool.org> <003601c5fb86$7bce6340$bddb1d18@game> <200512071726490522.0071258E@10.0.0.252> <4398A813.4020903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4398AC75.7050306@oldskool.org> Never mind, found it in the above thread... Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: >> >> mov cl,9 >> mov dx,offset HWMes >> call 5 > > > What is "call 5"? I'm having a brain fart right now and can't parse this. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 16:02:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:02:38 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR700KX297L7NLA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:39:31 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Consider on Windows XP that you can still run the following code: >> >> mov cl,9 >> mov dx,offset HWMes >> call 5 > >What is "call 5"? I'm having a brain fart right now and can't parse this. >-- Call 5 is the standard CP/M function call to BDOS parameters like what function is placed in C and DE pointed to string for string output. Goes all the way back to CP/M-80 V1.x Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 8 16:11:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:11:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398ABEE.3000701@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 8, 5 03:55:58 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, > > particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and > > how) the half-carry flag, for example. > > The "half-carry flag"? Huh? I believe it's a flag indicating a carry from the low nybble to the high nybble of the accumulator. That is, it indicates a carry out from the low half of the byte. It's mainly needed for BCD operations if memory serves. -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 16:14:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:14:38 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:55:58 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, >> particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and >> how) the half-carry flag, for example. > >The "half-carry flag"? Huh? You lived a shelterd life. 8080/8085 have a flag that is set when ther eis a carry from the low 4 bits to the upper as part of the DAA (Decimal Adjust Accumulator). Not only is it mostly undocumented therre are a bunch of instructions like Jumps that work with it also undocumented. While I've never deleved deeper than I had to with 8086/88 I'd bet it exits there and and with a few more permutations added. It's not unique to Intel! Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 16:24:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:24:32 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, >>>particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and >>>how) the half-carry flag, for example. >> >>The "half-carry flag"? Huh? > > I believe it's a flag indicating a carry from the low nybble to the high > nybble of the accumulator. That is, it indicates a carry out from the low > half of the byte. > It's mainly needed for BCD operations if memory serves. Is this "half-carry" flag addressable, or is it just something internal? A quick gander at 808x flags doesn't show a "half-carry" flag, unless I'm missing something obvious. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 16:26:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:26:18 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4398B30A.8040304@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > You lived a shelterd life. I lived a young life. I first became of programming age in late 1970s so my first CPUs were 6502, Z80, 68000, and 808x. I'm in my 30s, it's not like I was born in 1985 or anything :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 16:33:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:33:54 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512081433540904.04F9388A@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 5:14 PM Allison wrote: >8080/8085 have a flag that is set when ther eis a carry from the low 4 >bits to the upper as part of the DAA (Decimal Adjust Accumulator). Not >only is it mostly undocumented therre are a bunch of instructions like >Jumps that work with it also undocumented. While I've never deleved >deeper than I had to with 8086/88 I'd bet it exits there and and with >a few more permutations added. It's not unique to Intel! It's still there--and is one of the reasons this little tibit still works to convert a 4-bit binary value to ASCII hex: and al,15 add al,90h daa adc al,40h daa Of course, on the '86 it's probably faster to just translate the thing (XLAT) or even use an indexed move--and rather than use a shift and mask to separate the two hex nibbles, one could use an AAM with a 10H in the second byte of the opcode instead of the default 0AH. But on the 8080, a cute trick saved a bunch of code because indexing wasn't easy. BTW, where was the first place this little trick was employed? I think I can remember seeing it in the Intel MDS monitor code. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 8 16:54:18 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:54:18 +0000 Subject: Well, that's just typical! Amiga woes..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/12/05 21:37, "Julian Wolfe" wrote: > Have you looked online at any of the many Amiga retailers like > http://www.softhut.com or any other places like that? And what price > qualifies as a "leech"? > ukp80 plus is a leech, particularly when the machine itself can be bought for less than twice that. Softhut's price of $43 is ok though, I'll probably go with that. Ta! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 17:19:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:19:31 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512081519310369.0522F9DB@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 4:24 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Is this "half-carry" flag addressable, or is it just something internal? >A >quick gander at 808x flags doesn't show a "half-carry" flag, unless I'm >missing >something obvious. Okay, on the 8080, when you do a PUSH PSW, the flags are stored in the following arrangement: SZ-H-P-C If you had a NEC 8080A, the flags are similar: SZsH-P-C with the "s" being the subtract flag. The Z80 used a similar, but not identical arrangement: SZ-H-PsC Where "'s" is still the subtract flag, but the parity flag "p" now serves as both parity and overlow indicator. The 8086 has a similar flag arrangement to the 8080 if you do a LAHF instruction and look at what's in AH: SZ-H-P-C The big difference in the half-carry with the Z80 and NEC 8080A from the Intel 8080 is that one can DAA after a subtract and get a meaningful result (which is why a "subtract" flag is kept around). The 8086 drops the problem in the user's lap and adds another instruction, DAS, to do the same thing. Cheers, Chuck From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Thu Dec 8 17:27:52 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:27:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a spare 68040/25 for a Quadra 605? In-Reply-To: <200512081519310369.0522F9DB@10.0.0.252> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <200512081519310369.0522F9DB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <60814.207.71.246.177.1134084472.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> I rescued an apple quadra 605 machine this weekend. Initially am going to use it to recover some old files off floppies, but eventually I want to run netbsd on it. And netbsd needs a full 68040, not the 68LC040 that's in the quadra 605. so does anyone have a 68040 25mhz they like to part with cheap? I'm located in Santa Barbara, California. thanks, Jeff From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Dec 8 17:39:32 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:39:32 -0800 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4398C434.3020205@mindspring.com> When I worked for DEC back in the late 70s / early 80s, they had a wonderful scrap / salvage center in the Mill complex (basement of building 5 IIRC) that sold off 'scrapped' DEC parts to employees that would have otherwise gone to the smelter. Just about anything DEC made could show up there (albeit in pieces, not whole systems). I seem to remember that DEC mgmt finally shut it down when they discovered that some employees were internally buying new DEC equipment, dismantling it and sending the pieces to 'scrap', where they would then go buy them for 'personal' use at a deep discount (I think the person running the salvage operation would put this good stuff aside when it arrived, for a small fee, of course). I don't think it ever reopened after this fiasco. William Donzelli wrote: >>my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 system >>for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with keyboards. >>they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ >>don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they >>think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get >>instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it from >>the employees for personal use? >> >> > >The problem tends to be the employees reselling the surplus. And after >that, little underground networks within the company form up to make sure >that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain employees. You can >see where this is going. > >Yes, it sucks, and some bad eggs in your company probably spoiled it for >everyone. > >Also, it seems to me that every so often someone comes up with new >VT420s, anyway... > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > > From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 17:41:03 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 15:41:03 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to set up and administer. I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV routing node. Bob Armstrong From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 8 17:43:29 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:43:29 GMT Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: Jim Leonard "Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software" (Dec 8, 16:26) References: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4398B30A.8040304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <10512082343.ZM22810@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 8 2005, 16:26, Jim Leonard wrote: > Allison wrote: > > You lived a shelterd life. > > I lived a young life. I first became of programming age in late 1970s so my > first CPUs were 6502, Z80, 68000, and 808x. Whether it's called a Half Carry or an Auxiliary Carry seems to depend somewhat on whose data book you read. I've seen both used for the Z80 for example, indifferent manuals. ...in a 6800, it's called the Auxiliary Carry; in a 6809 it's called a Half Carry. It's bit 5 of the status register in both. ...in a Z80 and 8086 it's called the Auxiliary Carry; it's bit 4 in the Flags register in these and 8080/8085. ...it's bit 5 in 8048 and 8051 series micrcontrollers. There's no (visible) equivalent in a 6502 because of the way its special Decimal Mode for BCD arithmetic works. Ditto for a 68000. There isn't one in an ARM either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 17:58:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:58:10 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR7009R6EK30RM4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:26:18 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> You lived a shelterd life. > >I lived a young life. I first became of programming age in late 1970s so my >first CPUs were 6502, Z80, 68000, and 808x. > >I'm in my 30s, it's not like I was born in 1985 or anything :) >-- Ah but, what I said didn't reflect on age only experience. ;) Then again kid... ;) Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 8 18:00:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:00:42 +0000 Subject: Well, that's just typical! Amiga woes..... In-Reply-To: <4398AB68.8000800@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/12/05 21:53, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> Get the machine back online and BOTH disks have died on me. Backup drive >> won't power up and the Amiga drive no longer responds to the gentle 'power >> up please' tap I've been giving it. > > Hmm. You could pull the lid on the Amiga drive and coax it into life by poking > at the spindle; I've done that before with good results. Just obviously be in > a position to start copying data immediately. That's my plan, once I get back from my travels next week! My VAX 6000 installation the other month has turned into a 'deinstall VAX 6000 and instead install VAX 7000 because it supports more memory' *rubs hands in glee* I'm SO glad we weren't the company that specced this installation in the first place :D > Strange that the backup drive died though. There might be a surface mount fuse > on the drive that's gone, but it's an unusual failure. I'll check..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 18:03:02 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:03:02 -0800 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <4398C434.3020205@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000801c5fc53$f2d09c10$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> >Don North wrote: > When I worked for DEC back in the late 70s / early 80s, they had a > wonderful scrap / salvage center in the Mill complex (basement of > building 5 IIRC) that sold off 'scrapped' DEC parts to > employees that would have otherwise gone to the smelter. Just about anything > DEC made could show up there (albeit in pieces, not whole systems). Sadly, it's all true. DEC scrap was a wonderful place and, yes, I knew more than one DEC employee who had an amazing system in their home's basement made out of "scrap" parts. I also worked for DEC in the early 80s, but not in New England so I only go to visit the Mill on occasion. Bob From drb at msu.edu Thu Dec 8 18:03:52 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:41:03 PST.) <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> References: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200512090003.jB903qoA023775@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no > really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to > do "SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list > of machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to > share access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, > TOPS-10 or 20, machines. That actually sounds interesting. Among other things, it would give folks like me who are newish to decnet a way to test against known-working systems. How would you protect these older systems against abuse from the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose. De From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 18:05:41 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:05:41 -0600 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks working I'm going to load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my 11/23plus up on HECnet. It would be neat if we could get the guy running the DEC 10 on pdpplanet to link up to us also. I think this'll pick up steam as it rolls downhill, as most net trends do. Once people see that there are several machines on the network, it'll become larger. I gotta say, it sure would be cool to have my installation of DECmail connected with other systems across the globe. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:41 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > > > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really > good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" > or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that > aren't > mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, > non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? > > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few > email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > > At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is > having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? > > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the > Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for > point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and > even > DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right > now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license > program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits > using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to > set up and administer. > > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and > I > can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV > routing node. > > Bob Armstrong > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 18:08:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:08:16 -0500 Subject: sad to report... Message-ID: <0IR700GVBF0X4Z65@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: sad to report... > From: Don North > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:39:32 -0800 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Classic Comp > >When I worked for DEC back in the late 70s / early 80s, they had a >wonderful scrap / salvage center in the Mill complex (basement of >building 5 IIRC) that sold off 'scrapped' DEC parts to employees that >would have otherwise gone to the smelter. Just about anything DEC made >could show up there (albeit in pieces, not whole systems). I took advantage of it as often as I could. I thingk I have every 871A I got from there still. >I seem to remember that DEC mgmt finally shut it down when they >discovered that some employees were internally buying new DEC equipment, >dismantling it and sending the pieces to 'scrap', where they would then >go buy them for 'personal' use at a deep discount (I think the person >running the salvage operation would put this good stuff aside when it >arrived, for a small fee, of course). It was that and also there were people decomissioning good scopes and the like and "picking them up later". I got po'd there when I'd seen a 575 scope in pristine condition and they wouldn't sell it to me. I think it was less than a month later that it all hit the fan. >I don't think it ever reopened after this fiasco. No it didn't. I worked a special deal with my manager to get the PDP-8E off of a permenent property pass and in my hands along with a PDP11/23 in the lab that I was the only user. However, I've been in several places and seen similar abuses cause problems. Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Dec 8 18:17:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <200512090017.QAA09881@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >It's a problem with instruction sets that implement result codes as a >simple condition code register. The same arithmetic that couints >interations affects the condition codes that one might also need for >searching or computation. That's probably the reason that the increment >and decrement instructions don't bother the carry flag and that the 16-bit >increments and decrements on the 8080 didn't bother any of the condition >codes. Inspection of the 808x instruction set can be very illuminiating, >particularly when it comes to arcana like which instructions modify (and >how) the half-carry flag, for example. > >Cheers, >Chuck Hi I still don't fully understand the decimal fuctions of the 4004. It has similar problems with addition and subtraction. It, of course, doesn't have to deal with a half carry, being only 4 bits. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 18:18:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:18:57 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > > Is this "half-carry" flag addressable, or is it just something > internal? A quick gander at 808x flags doesn't show a "half-carry" > flag, unless I'm missing something obvious. The flag only works half the time, that is why it not listed. :) Looking at a 386 programming book, it is AF -- auxiliary carry. Now what I still want to know is a real way to calculate the speed of the 8086 other than it often a lot slower than the best timing they give in the opcode tables. Ben alias Woodelf PS. Wee don't need no stupid carry flag, a link bit works fine. (At least on the computer I am building a toggled link is better than a carry flag) Wee don't need DAA that what the big valve mainframes are for. From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 18:20:21 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:20:21 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <200512090003.jB903qoA023775@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> > How would you protect these older systems against abuse from > the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in > current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there > are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose. Depends on what you mean. Ordinary ("ordinary" :-) people who don't have a VAX running Multinet and join the "network" wouldn't be able to get in to any of the DECnet machines. However, it is true that the Multinet DECnet virtual circuit over IP has virtually no security. It would be easy, if you knew a little bit about DECnet and were so motivated, to sniff or spoof the traffic. Probably there just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry about, and they have better targets for their efforts. Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. Multinet v5.1 seems to have the ability to do IPSEC, but I have no experience with that feature. If it's anything like IPSEC on a PC, it's a lot of overhead for a poor VAX. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 18:26:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:26:00 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR7005IHFUHCYV0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:41:03 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked >together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really >good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" >or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that aren't >mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, >non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? I've been able to do that here for about 15 years internal to my room. Mostly 3100s (pizza box) of the microVAX flavor, MicroVAXIIs and MicroVAX2000s. Decnet is cool and LAVC is something I've never been able to reproduce with PCs. I try to boot the FLYIN: cluster a few times a year with members (CESSNA:, PIPER:, RUNWAY:, FBO:, MOONY:, MAUL:, BEECH: and C150U:). All of my VAXen are headless, I use a VT1200 xterm to "set host" to them. As to doing ove the internet, DSL, and floating addresses are a problem. There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or somesuch), Is it still? > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few >email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > >At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is >having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? Start with www.OpenVMS.org and link from there. > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the >Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for >point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even >DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right >now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license >program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits >using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to >set up and administer. More money that I can devote right now (power too). But interesting to follow and maybe later.. > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I >can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV >routing node. > >Bob Armstrong Actually a MicroVAX2000 with a RD54 is enough for routing if you can shoehorn the OS and enough ram in it. Routing is not a high cpu usage problem. For phase IV routing VMS5.4 is enough and that fits in a RD53(71mb) well enough and isn't as ram hungry as V7.x. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 18:28:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:28:30 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR700EI0FYNIZO2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: Dennis Boone > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:03:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no > > really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to > > do "SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list > > of machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to > > share access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, > > TOPS-10 or 20, machines. > >That actually sounds interesting. Among other things, it would >give folks like me who are newish to decnet a way to test against >known-working systems. > >How would you protect these older systems against abuse from the random >crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in current versions, if >properly managed, but I'm betting there are problems with other OSes. >You could do vpns, I suppose. VMS if not put up sloppy is fairly tight. The was a minor bug in 5.x that was fixed by 5.4. It's put 5.4 or later up against anything current. Allison From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 18:27:16 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:27:16 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c5fc57$55313650$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> > Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks working > I'm going to load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my > 11/23plus up on HECnet. How were you going to connect physically with HECnet? Set up some other box as a gateway? Bob From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 18:37:06 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:37:06 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR7005IHFUHCYV0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000b01c5fc58$b1f39760$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> > As to doing ove the internet, DSL, DSL? What's DSL? You don't mean the phone line, DSL ? >and floating addresses are a problem. If you mean DECnet addresses, then yes, we'd have to have some coordination of the addresses used. WE can just assign people a block of addresses; I doubt that we'll have enough members for it to be a real management problem. > There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or > somesuch), Is it still? As it happens I know a guy with an XKL machine in his apartment that might be willing to connect. Don't know if we're talking about the same person. > More money that I can devote right now (power too). But > interesting to follow and maybe later.. What's the money required? If you already have a VAX then you're set. Power is an expense, of course, but you don't have to leave your node up 24x7. >Actually a MicroVAX2000 with a RD54 is enough for routing if you can > shoehorn the OS and enough ram in it. Routing is not a high > cpu usage problem. Yeah, but a 4000/VLC takes less power, less space, and boots lots (lots!!) faster. It's the lowest power budget (and therefore cheapest to operate 24x7) VAX I know of. [The first "personal" VAX I ever owned was a VS2000, around 1989/1990. I used to come home, turn it on, and I could make dinner while I waited for it to boot and start DECwindows!] Bob From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 8 18:39:03 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:39:03 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> References: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: At 3:41 PM -0800 12/8/05, Robert Armstrong wrote: > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few >email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > >At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is >having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? HECnet's still around? I thought it had died off without ever really getting started. I wonder why on earth I quit messing with it then... Actually taking a quick look at the HECnet mail list archives on my box, probably was a combination of the mail list dying off (unless I got dropped), and real life taking to much of my time :^/ > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I >can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV >routing node. Hmmm, I wonder what I did with the Storage Works shelf that I had for the VS4000 60 or 90 I was going to use. It's around here somewhere, hopefully with the drives still installed, just not sure if it's here, or in storage. I know the VLC, 60, and 90 are all in storage, but I know where, and they're easy to get to :^) Or maybe I could manage an AlphaStation 200 4/233 as I have a pair sitting around doing nothing. Needless to say, I'd be interested in a Hobbyist DECnet, if I can find the time to put a node together. What I can't manage is putting a physical PDP-11 on it, though I might be able to do an emulated one. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 8 18:41:45 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 19:41:45 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network References: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <090401c5fc59$5598e6e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Is anyone else interested in participating? Yes I would be interested. Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example. Good Luck! John A. frequent DECnet user, never (yet) a netadmin. mainly a microVAX series collector, east coast. From news at computercollector.com Thu Dec 8 18:58:15 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 19:58:15 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <090401c5fc59$5598e6e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001301c5fc5b$a3ec8f20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example. Good point! But what the network needs first and foremost is a dedicated mailing list. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:42 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > Is anyone else interested in participating? Yes I would be interested. Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example. Good Luck! John A. frequent DECnet user, never (yet) a netadmin. mainly a microVAX series collector, east coast. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 19:11:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:11:47 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 5:18 PM woodelf wrote: >The flag only works half the time, that is why it not listed. :) >Looking at a 386 programming book, it is AF -- auxiliary carry. >Now what I still want to know is a real way to calculate the speed >of the 8086 other than it often a lot slower than the best timing >they give in the opcode tables. Write a loop that executes, oh, 10,000,000 times. Get a stopwatch. Start the program and the stopwatch simultaneously, stop the stopwatch when the loop ends. Calculate the average time per instruction as (time to execute/(10,000,000*number of instructions in loop) :) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 8 19:21:16 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:21:16 -0800 Subject: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions In-Reply-To: <438E66A1.6040202@compsys.to> References: <438918C0.5040007@compsys.to> <43891BF6.1090906@pacbell.net> <4389668E.478563AA@cs.ubc.ca> <438E66A1.6040202@compsys.to> Message-ID: Maybe you should port bc to your 11. (Actually I'm fairly sure ports already exist.) Here are your reciprocals..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- scale=40 define r(x) { for (i=1;i<=x;i++) { 1.0/i } } r(65535) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course you really dont need that because you can just calculate your logs directly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- scale=95 l(2) 0.69314718055994530941723212145817656807550013436025525412068000949339362196969471560586332699641 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reciprocal calculations take 1.562 seconds in bc on my laptop. If I'm translating between benchmarks correctly, that would be about a day on an 11/23. You didn't want it finished in this lifetime anyway, did you? :) Eric From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 19:22:01 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 19:22:01 -0600 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <000a01c5fc57$55313650$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: > How were you going to connect physically with HECnet? Set up some other > box as a gateway? > > Bob > Yeah, using my Sun machine that I use for everything else, I was just going to tunnel a serial port onto HECnet, and link it in with Telnet, as Johnny describes on the HECnet page. However, since I'm tunneling serial, I wonder if I could use some sort of high speed synchronous device instead of asynchronous. I do have two synchronous QBUS serial cards, though I have no way of knowing how I'd connect them to the Sun, nor if I can tunnel sync instead of async serial. There's also the other option of buying the VMS hobbyist kit and setting up an emulated VAX under SIMH, but I don't know how that handles Ethernet (which would be a lot faster, and I do have a DEQNA set up and ready to use) Anyone have any suggestions? From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 19:25:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:25:35 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512081514.HAA18506@floodgap.com> References: <43945454.8060907@autonoma.edu.co> <200512081514.HAA18506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051208202535.55f814a8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:14:47 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I'm now enjoying the SE that I picked up yesterday. I have > > > a CD burner installed on it and am figuring out just what > > > software will run on it. > > > > Toast, of course. Before Nero existed, I used a Mac IIci and > > Toast for all my CD burning needs. > > Which version of Toast? Under which version of Mac OS? > I've been running Toast on two machines. The SE, running 7.1 and my Beige G3 tower, with 9.2. I am not sure which version, but it's very old. My first CD Writer came with a 'bundle' CD that had Adaptec for the PC and 'Toast for Mac.' I am glad I saved that CD. It is from about 1996. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 19:28:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:28:24 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <10512082343.ZM22810@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4398B30A.8040304@oldskool.org> <10512082343.ZM22810@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4398DDB8.8010903@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > ...in a Z80 and 8086 it's called the Auxiliary Carry; it's bit 4 in the Always wondered what this was for :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 19:28:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:28:33 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <10512082343.ZM22810@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <0IR700E979RKIQ02@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <4398B30A.8040304@oldskool.org> <10512082343.ZM22810@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200512081728330309.05991951@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 11:43 PM Pete Turnbull wrote: >There's no (visible) equivalent in a 6502 because of the way its >special Decimal Mode for BCD arithmetic works. Ditto for a 68000. The 68K decides instead to dedicate special instructions (ABCD, SBCD, NBCD). Not a bad solution, particularly with auto-increment and decrement on the source and destination addresses. The whole business of BCD arithmetic probably stems from the binary paranoia exhibited in the 50's-70's by the business community. COBOL features arithmetic directly on character strings, or in the case of IBM comp-3 numbers, packed strings. PL/I displays the same thing. Gotta have it because you can't represent 1/10 as a non-continuing binary fraction and that gives rise to the story about the fellow who collected binary "round off" error in his own bank account and got very wealthy. Forget that even BCD has roundoff/truncation/loss of significance problems too, just give us our decimal! When I was designing a BASIC compiler and run-time in the 70's, it was made very clear to me that BCD floating point was a given. No binary--it gives business types the willies no matter how much precision you attach to it (I'd proposed as an alternative binary with a decimal fixed point). When 8087 support was added to Supercalc, numbers were still stored internally as BCD floating point, in spite of being handled as binary inside in the 8087. Hopefully, we're all past that now. Maybe we can jettison the DAA, DAS, AAM and AAD from the x86 instruction set. ZAP, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 19:29:43 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:29:43 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR7009R6EK30RM4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR7009R6EK30RM4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4398DE07.7050000@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > Ah but, what I said didn't reflect on age only experience. ;) > > Then again kid... ;) Great. I'm 34 and a "kid" in this group. Maybe appreciation of classic computers should also be subject to the "decade rule" too? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 19:33:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:33:25 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Write a loop that executes, oh, 10,000,000 times. Get a stopwatch. >Start the program and the stopwatch simultaneously, stop the stopwatch when >the loop ends. > > > Hmm I need a real PC and a real StopWatch! The watch could be hard to find since they don't make mechanical ones anymore. >Calculate the average time per instruction as (time to >execute/(10,000,000*number of instructions in loop) > > The XT can only loop $FFFF times. :D From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 19:36:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:36:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398DE07.7050000@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Dec 8, 5 07:29:43 pm" Message-ID: <200512090136.RAA16584@floodgap.com> > > Ah but, what I said didn't reflect on age only experience. ;) > > Then again kid... ;) > > Great. I'm 34 and a "kid" in this group. Maybe appreciation of classic > computers should also be subject to the "decade rule" too? ;-) Yes. You have to be at least 10 years old. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A zebra cannot change its spots. -- Al Gore -------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 19:40:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 17:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a spare 68040/25 for a Quadra 605? In-Reply-To: <60814.207.71.246.177.1134084472.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> from Jeff Davis at "Dec 8, 5 03:27:52 pm" Message-ID: <200512090140.RAA16444@floodgap.com> > I rescued an apple quadra 605 machine this weekend. Initially am going to use > it to recover some old files off floppies, but eventually I want to run netbsd > on it. And netbsd needs a full 68040, not the 68LC040 that's in the quadra > 605. > so does anyone have a 68040 25mhz they like to part with cheap? I'm located > in Santa Barbara, California. I don't, but to encourage you, I have a Q605 in an LCIII case that, with a 32MB stick and a 25MHz full '040, screams under NetBSD 1.6.2. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Chaos reigns within/Reflect, repent and reboot;/Order shall return. -------- From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 19:38:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:38:32 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: <4397DB94.7020204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051208203832.38438cd4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 10:28:53 -0500 (EST) William Donzelli wrote: > > You could say that. The 4W GE light bulb in question hasn't > > been lit continuously, but the same bulb hasn't blown since > > it was manufactured in 1901. > > There are actually a number of ancient bulbs around the country > that refuse to die. Pretty neat, anyway. > And I would bet that General Electric, Sylvania, and a few other concerns have people who study these bulbs to make sure they don't make any more like them. > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 19:48:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:48:16 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051208105838.030525c0@mail.netsync.net> References: <200512070110.RAA09119@ca2h0430.amd.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20051208105838.030525c0@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <20051208204816.6f3222c0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:03:53 -0500 "Christian R. Fandt" wrote: > Here's the link I was given last year from one of my military > electronics collector lists: > http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Programs/MilSpec/ListDocs.asp?BasicDoc=MIL-HDBK-1131 > > Even covers capacitor rated working voltages down to 5 volts, > which is applicable to our solid-state needs (read: lower > voltage supplies). Most other cap reforming articles apply to > antique radio and other vacuum tube (valve) electronics, > including the early tube computers, that have operating > voltages in the hundreds. > > Regards, Chris F. > I have what is the 'perfect' bridge for testing and refurbishing capacitors. It is an old US Navy portable LCR bridge. It features an 'eye' tube for the null detector, and it has a built in power supply. You can charge capacitors up to over 400 volts while simultaneously bridging them. The voltmeter that you use to set the voltage has a momentary ammeter switch setting, so you can see what current a capacitor is drawing as you apply the charge voltage. It's interesting to use, because the 'Q' of old higher-voltage capacitors improves as you bring the working voltage up. It is definitely an 'instrument to die for' if you're a tube equipment enthusiast. Not as aesthetic as a General Radio 1650 (which runs on "D" cells) but an excellent piece of equipment. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 19:53:11 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 17:53:11 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512081753110664.05AFA824@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 6:33 PM woodelf wrote: >The XT can only loop $FFFF times. :D MOV CX,9680H MOV DL, 98H TOP: ...all those stinkin instructions... LOOP TOP DEC DL JNZ TOP You'll execute the last two instructions 152 times. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 19:53:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:53:49 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <20051208203832.38438cd4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4397DB94.7020204@gmail.com> <20051208203832.38438cd4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4398E3AD.4090706@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >And I would bet that General Electric, Sylvania, and a few other >concerns have people who study these bulbs to make sure they don't >make any more like them. > > > I think somebody made bulbs that would last years in the early 1900's. Of course they had like 25% less light and 25% more power. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 8 19:56:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:56:24 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4398E448.40003@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Now what I still want to know is a real way to calculate the speed > of the 8086 other than it often a lot slower than the best timing > they give in the opcode tables. Aha! Finally a question I can most definitely answer! For the 8088, and its implementation in the IBM PC 5150 and compatbiles, the timings in the opcode tables are indeed correct -- if the instructions are already in the prefetch queue. The 8088 only has a prefetch queue of 4 bytes, so if your instructions aren't already prefetched it will take 4 cycles per byte for the Bus Interface Unit to fetch them. For example, "POP reg" is listed as taking 8 cycles, but if it's NOT been fetched it takes an additional 4 cycles to read the opcode itself. So the total time if not prefetched is actually 12 cycles. That's pretty much it, and that's why you can optimize for 8088 just through visual inspection 90% of the time. For example, REP MOVS and MUL take long enough to execute that you can be sure the prefetch queue is full after they're finished -- the Bus Interface Unit runs independently of the Execution Unit so it can be fetching while the instruction is already in progress. The other 10%, you should time your code using something like the Zen timer. The 8086 has two improvements over the 8088 in this area: - The prefetch queue is now 6 bytes long - It can be filled twice as fast (8086 can access *two* bytes in 4 cycles, as opposed to just one byte) ...so that's why, even at the same clock speed, the 8086 is about 30% more efficient than the 8088. My 8086 clone ran at 7.16MHz and, if you go by MHz alone, should have been 66% faster than my 5150; it turned out to be about 90% faster in benchmarks. Remember, there was no L1 or L2 cache on IBM PC platforms motherboards until higher-speed 386s around 1990. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 19:56:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:56:52 -0500 Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC In-Reply-To: <20051206025558.68943.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051206025558.68943.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051208205652.1c78535e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:55:58 -0800 (PST) Chris M wrote: > Nice acquisition. Vesta also designed the 80188 based > robot brain from Radio Electronics circa 1987. I was > successful in obtaining the FORTH and BASIC/BIOS rom > images (theyre still around). It took 2 tries. It pays > to be persistent. I dont imagine your kit came with > the circuit board artwork? And is there a floppy > interface (if so, which chip?). No, it is a very plain SBC. It has I/O ports made with standard 20-pin TTL gates and a National Semicondutor A/D converter (ADC0809). It has no storage or 'advanced' IO. It has four open ROM sockets, though, and you can burn EPROMs right on the board. The console for the BASIC interpreter is a serial port. With it's all off-the-shelf parts, I plan to use it as a launching pad for further development (and yes, I _am_ slowly clearing the piles of equipment and making my way to the electronics bench over thar across the room) The only 'key' component in it is the on-ROM BASIC firmware. I will need to communicate with Vesta before giving that out. If I do and they are agreeable I can and will share the ROM image and schematics. It's a simple two-layer design and there's no reason in the world why it couldn't be reproduced. If I get serious I'll want to clone an augmented/expandable version of it anyway. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 20:03:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:03:25 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512081753110664.05AFA824@10.0.0.252> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081753110664.05AFA824@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4398E5ED.3030207@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > MOV CX,9680H > MOV DL, 98H > TOP: > ...all those stinkin instructions... > LOOP TOP > DEC DL > JNZ TOP > > > ; IS THIS WHAT YOU MENT? MOV DL,98H TOP: MOV CX,9680H TOP2: ; MY STINKING INSTRUCTIONS LOOP TOP2 DEC DL JNZ TOP >You'll execute the last two instructions 152 times. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 20:07:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:07:57 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR700ENOKKDIWU2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi > I still don't fully understand the decimal fuctions >of the 4004. It has similar problems with addition and >subtraction. It, of course, doesn't have to deal with >a half carry, being only 4 bits. >Dwight The 4004 is as they say a "whole nother animal". The decimal arithmetic is actually familiar theme amoung the 4bit(datapath) class of machines TMS1000, NEC uCOM4 and uCOM75, and others dealing with decimal quantities is both easier (no conversions) and allows the data areas in memory to be organized or thought of as long registers of decimal digits. Of course the Carry has to reflect numeric overflows greater than 9d instead of Fh. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 20:08:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:08:04 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200512060305.jB635Ypd091150@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051208210804.31d1a78a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:40:44 -0600 Jeff Walther wrote: > >Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 18:19:05 -0500 > >From: Scott Stevens > > >On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:59:42 -0500 > >"James Fogg" wrote: > > > >> > James Fogg wrote: > >> > > My interests stop at the "classic" Macs, of which the > >SE30 is the > > > height of engineering achievement (in my > >opinion). > > > >> > Why? I know a bit of the classic Mac engineering history > >> > thanks to Andy's retro website/book, but I know nothing of > >the SE30. > > >> OK, neither do I (it's too late to argue). It is the last of > >the classic > Macs and has the greatest number of features and > >capabilities. > > > > >Actually it isn't the last of the Classic Macs in a certain > >sense. Apple > > produced several other inferior compact Mac machines that > > aren't nearly as expandable as the SE/30. The Macintosh > > Classic is an example of this, if I'm not mistaken. The > > Classic can't sport anywhere near as much RAM as the SE/30. > > The SE/30 is essentially the IIcx with the NuBus slots sawn off > and a little (very little) video RAM and video circuitry added. > > It was a nice machine. 16 MHz 68030 with fully 32 bit wide data > and address paths. Maximum RAM is 128 MB with eight 16MB 30 > pin SIMMs. Color capability is in the ROM, but requires one of > the somewhat rare video cards (SE/30 PDS slot) and goes to an > external monitor. > In it's day I can see the reason to expand an SE/30 with a video card. But mine are well equipped with ethernet cards in the PDS slot. If you want 'fancy video' and that sort of thing, shouldn't you be using a NuBus box anyway? I do have a bunch of SCSI-to-ethernet pods that would work on an SE/30 with video in the PDS slot, but I'm not sure about the performance of ethernet-through SCSI' adaptors. I use one occasionally with my Powerbook 165c where there's no alternative. > The follow up models which had similar form factors were far > inferior. The Mac Classic really ought to be compared to the > Mac Plus or Mac SE (somewhat superior to the former and > inferior to the latter). The only thing the Classic had going > for it is that Mac OS 6.03 is in the ROM, so you can boot with > no available disk. It *should* have had the Mac Portable > memory map, so that it could address 8 MB of RAM instead of > only 4MB (24 bit address space) and a speed bump from 8 to 16 > MHz, but Apple didn't do that. None of Apple's compact Mac products after the SE/30 shine like it does. One might say it was a 'sign of the times' at Apple. The SE/30 is one of the 'peaks' of the company in some regards. > > The Classic II was meant to be a follow up to the SE/30 but > while it has a 16MHz 68030 its maximum RAM is 10 MB and its > data path is only 16 bits wide. Bleah. The Color Classic has > the same problem, though it does have a color screen. > > The Color Classic II was better with 33MHz 68030 and 32 bit data > > path. The Max RAM was still limited to only 36MB. However, > that's a 72 pin SIMM socket with 4MB on the motherboard and > Apple never acknowledged that any of their 72 pin RAM machines > would address better than 32 MB per slot. Nevertheless many of > their machines will work with 64MB or even 128 MB 72 pin SIMMs, > so the CCII may have a much higher max RAM than reported by > Apple. > > If that's the case, then the CCII was a worthy successor to the > SE/30. > > Jeff Walther From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 20:10:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:10:58 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:05:24 -0500 John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 > system for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with > keyboards. they did not give option on taking them or buying > them =/ don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved > because they think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell > what they get instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it > and keeping it from the employees for personal use? > -John Boffemmyer IV > I watched skids of Sparc hardware go out at a company I worked at around Y2K in a similar fashion. They had a 'contract' with the scrapper, they said, and 'couldn't play favorites'. There is a 'corporate culture' at some places where you're seen as a lunatic for even suggesting you might have an interest in 'that old stuff.' From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 20:15:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:15:18 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR700536KWM2P13@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:27:16 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >> Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks working >> I'm going to load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my >> 11/23plus up on HECnet. > > How were you going to connect physically with HECnet? Set up some other >box as a gateway? > >Bob He can use a DEQNA/DELQA or similar for the Ubus. The laternate is a SYNC card (DPV-11 or whatever) to VAX or other DDCMP host. The real problem is he'll be running DECnet Phase-III however a small uVAX can do routing for that. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 8 20:19:14 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:19:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051208210804.31d1a78a.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Dec 8, 5 09:08:04 pm" Message-ID: <200512090219.SAA18576@floodgap.com> > I do have a bunch of SCSI-to-ethernet pods that would work on an > SE/30 with video in the PDS slot, but I'm not sure about the > performance of ethernet-through SCSI' adaptors. I use one > occasionally with my Powerbook 165c where there's no alternative. I'm sure it varies from model to model, but the Asante SCSI Ethernet boxes I have are reportedly around 5MB/sec max throughput. Not speedy, but better than nothing. I use one with a IIsi (the IIsi has a NuBus video accelerator which makes it tremendously more useable, but thus no room for a NIC). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Greg Morris --------------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 20:30:35 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398E448.40003@oldskool.org> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <4398E448.40003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4398EC4B.3090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > For the 8088, and its implementation in the IBM PC 5150 and > compatbiles, the timings in the opcode tables are indeed correct -- if > the instructions are already in the prefetch queue. The 8088 only has > a prefetch queue of 4 bytes, so if your instructions aren't already > prefetched it will take 4 cycles per byte for the Bus Interface Unit > to fetch them. For example, "POP reg" is listed as taking 8 cycles, > but if it's NOT been fetched it takes an additional 4 cycles to read > the opcode itself. So the total time if not prefetched is actually 12 > cycles. I thought the pre-fetch queue was longer than that. Still most instructions I bet are 3 to 4 bytes long when you have to acess memory. I just tend to count memory cycles on instructions for ball park timing. What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later the 8088. It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- 8080 emulation and a better 16 bit design. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 20:33:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:33:37 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR700G6YLR5S68D@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 16:37:06 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >> As to doing ove the internet, DSL, > > DSL? What's DSL? You don't mean the phone line, DSL ? Yep, or more specifically ADSL over phone lines. > >>and floating addresses are a problem. > > If you mean DECnet addresses, then yes, we'd have to have some >coordination of the addresses used. WE can just assign people a block of >addresses; I doubt that we'll have enough members for it to be a real >management problem. Not the DECnet addresses the IP addresses. >> There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or >> somesuch), Is it still? > > As it happens I know a guy with an XKL machine in his apartment that might >be willing to connect. Don't know if we're talking about the same person. I dont think it's the same person, I can't be sure. But yes the XKL be it and the node/machine name was TOAD. >> More money that I can devote right now (power too). But >> interesting to follow and maybe later.. > > What's the money required? If you already have a VAX then you're set. >Power is an expense, of course, but you don't have to leave your node up >24x7. I already have a uVAX2000 running Ultirix as firewall so I guess I could. The problem is when I run VMS on the others I'm used to running a few as I don't want them to be lonely. ;) >>Actually a MicroVAX2000 with a RD54 is enough for routing if you can >> shoehorn the OS and enough ram in it. Routing is not a high >> cpu usage problem. > > Yeah, but a 4000/VLC takes less power, less space, and boots lots (lots!!) >faster. It's the lowest power budget (and therefore cheapest to operate >24x7) VAX I know of. Really? The uVAX2000 power supply maxes at 160W though the 3100m10s and M76s are not much more. Also the uV2k is only .5cuft I think there are smaller pizza boxes though. I happen to like that the UVAX2000 actually has a handle! > [The first "personal" VAX I ever owned was a VS2000, around 1989/1990. I >used to come home, turn it on, and I could make dinner while I waited for it >to boot and start DECwindows!] I have three of them, one is used for formatting disks both floppy and hard. My first uVAX was a MicroVAX-II in BA23, still have it. There are two 3100m76, three VAXserver3100, Two MicroVAX-11s in my collection of uVAX and at least four Storage expansion boxes, two TLZ04 tapes, and a pair of TZK-50s. I had a bunch more when U Vermont stopped using uVAX for mail servers years ago. About half run VMS5.44 under unlimited license and the rest 7.2 under hobbiest license. The rules around here is if it don't dim the neighborhood lights and it fits in the room I can keep it. Right now the room is cubed out. Allison From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 8 20:34:29 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 18:34:29 -0800 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000101c5fc69$15cb7c70$7101a8c0@jfcl.com> > There is a 'corporate culture' at some places > where you're seen as a lunatic for even suggesting you might > have an interest in 'that old stuff.' Not all employers are bad this way. I got my very first personal VAX, a VS2000, around the late 80s' by buying it from my employer. At the time DEC was offering a $1,500 trade in for a VS2000 if you upgraded to a 3100, and my employer had a bunch to trade. I said, "What if I pay you $1,500 and you sell one to me instead of DEC?" To my surprise, they went for it. I wrote 'em a check and took home a VAX. They even officially transferred the software licenses to me (at the time DEC would still do that) - I've still got the genuine paper PAKs with my name on them. At that time PCs cost more than $1500, and I thought I got a really good deal :-) Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 20:38:56 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:38:56 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR700ENFM00J133@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:29:43 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> Ah but, what I said didn't reflect on age only experience. ;) >> >> Then again kid... ;) > >Great. I'm 34 and a "kid" in this group. Maybe appreciation of classic >computers should also be subject to the "decade rule" too? ;-) Nah, that would take all the fun out! ;) I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. Allison From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 8 20:44:27 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:44:27 -0600 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <000101c5fc69$15cb7c70$7101a8c0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: I actually got about 3 pallets of Macs fo $20 from my current employer, ranging from IIsi to about 8600s. Most working, some not. I also got an IBM RS6000 (I forgot the model, it's a PReP machine) for 5 bucks because that's what I offered....*sigh* the junk I buy on impulse...why did I ever do that? Oh well. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:34 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: sad to report... > > > > There is a 'corporate culture' at some places > > where you're seen as a lunatic for even suggesting you might > > have an interest in 'that old stuff.' > > Not all employers are bad this way. I got my very first personal VAX, a > VS2000, around the late 80s' by buying it from my employer. At the time > DEC > was offering a $1,500 trade in for a VS2000 if you upgraded to a 3100, and > my employer had a bunch to trade. > > I said, "What if I pay you $1,500 and you sell one to me instead of > DEC?" > To my surprise, they went for it. I wrote 'em a check and took home a > VAX. > They even officially transferred the software licenses to me (at the time > DEC would still do that) - I've still got the genuine paper PAKs with my > name on them. > > At that time PCs cost more than $1500, and I thought I got a really good > deal :-) > > Bob > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 8 20:49:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:49:30 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: woodelf > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later >the 8088. >It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- >8080 emulation and >a better 16 bit design. Not that I know of. I remember being able to get 8088s before the 86s and that was back in 78 or early 79. It was quite somethig to take an 8088, 8284(clock gen), 8205 (aka74138), 8755, 8155 and have a complete 16bitter in 5 or so chips. However, the 8089 IOP was a piece of cruft and one big pain to debug. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 8 21:07:54 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:07:54 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512082207.54714.pat@computer-refuge.org> Scott Stevens declared on Thursday 08 December 2005 21:10: > On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:05:24 -0500 > > John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 > > system for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with > > keyboards. they did not give option on taking them or buying > > them =/ don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved > > because they think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell > > what they get instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it > > and keeping it from the employees for personal use? > > -John Boffemmyer IV > > I watched skids of Sparc hardware go out at a company I worked at > around Y2K in a similar fashion. They had a 'contract' with the > scrapper, they said, and 'couldn't play favorites'. There is a > 'corporate culture' at some places where you're seen as a lunatic > for even suggesting you might have an interest in 'that old > stuff.' And that's one of the reasons I work for a university. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 8 21:50:35 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 19:50:35 -0800 Subject: TSX Plus distribution status... Message-ID: <200512081950.35830.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've received a number of emails over the past few months as to the status of the TSX Plus distribution for hobbiests. I'm finally to the place where I thought I would be a few months ago! Some of this is background material - but I've included a fair amount of technical information which I hope will enable others to recover data from old disk drives that would otherwise be unreadable. -- As you may recollect, some months ago I contacted S&H Computer Systems, Inc. on behalf of collectors to see if I could obtain a free license, binaries, and documentation for TSX-Plus for collectors. After a bit of negotiating regarding the free license, I was granted permission to release TSX-Plus to hobbiests. I was provided with a copy of the latest release, including documentation. -- About the same time, I was told that S&H might be scrapping out their 11/73 system "in a few months". I told them not to scrap it out - but let me know when they wanted to "make it go away". Shortly thereafter, I was told they needed the space for a tenant - and the 11/73 needed to disappear. I put out a "rescue" request on this list (The "Nashville rescue") - and after a good deal of back-and-forth, a couple of folks responded to rescue. The only items I wanted were the disks that contained TSX "anything" - and that I'd be willing to pay whatever shipping costs there were to California. What I got was six RL02 packs and one Fujitsu 2312K (at about 85 pounds) and its associated Emulex SC02/C controller, cables, etc. (The SC02/C makes the 2312K look like two RK07's plus one RK06). I put together an 11/83 system from spare parts I had around, including a "new" TK50 drive. After getting it up - I tried out the 2312K - and it wouldn't even go "ready". When I disassembled the drive electronics (two boards) - I found that one of the jumpers on the second board was bent badly and the jumper had fallen off in shipment. My guess is that it was bent from the getgo - and the jumper fell off in the process of shipping it from Nashville to CA. At any rate - after I straightened out the pins and replaced the jumper - the drive would go "ready". I was able get directories for DM0:, DM1: and DM2:!!! I thought I was "home free" - but then a "nastyness" occurred - I got many errors (temporary and permanent) reading files from the 2312. I put out a manual request on this list - and fortunately, Joe Heck responded to my request and mailed me a copy of the M2312K manual. This was a Godsend - I couldn't have gone much further without it. After reading both the M2312K manual and the Emulex manual - I discovered a feature which saved the day. The drive and Emulex controller support "Servo Offset Plus and Minus". This means that the conroller will, on discovering a sector error, offset the cylinder position either plus or minus 3 micrometers off track and attempt to read the record again. I modified settings on the Emulex board to turn this feature "on". Subsequent to making this setting, the disk could "almost" entirely be read without permanent errors. Unfortunately, when I tried to backup and verify the disk to tape - I got a number of verify errors. Back to the "drawing board". Many of the files on the disk were huge ".dsk" files. Unfortunately, the likelihood of a permanent error in a huge file proved to be very likely. So while the above fix made recovering small files very likely - the huge files (12,000-36000 blocks long) remained error prone. I concluded that I'd have to further enhance my recovery technique. I decided to add a 40 MB RD32 (ST-251) to the system and recover data by disk to disk copies, followed by tape backup of the RD32. I found the best way of recovering data in this situation was to "mount" the "filename.dsk" files to a logical disks - and then copy the contents to a newly created and mounted logical disk on the backup disk. In many cases there were no errors in any of the copied files - even when the original .dsk files had several errors! While this technique worked well, it took a LOT of work and time. I literally spent weeks getting all the data off the 2312, The good news is this: The original release I received from S&H (which is all end users ever received) was 5.6 MB in size. After the 2312 and RL02 data recovery - I have about 73.5 MB of source, data and code. Included is a complete PDP-11 accounting system (which I've also received permission to release after I strip it of data files). I have the TSXPlus licensing software which can generate keys. This may or may not me necessary for hobbiest use - but at least I now have it if we need it. I haven't had the time to look at all the stuff that's in the 73.5 MB - that's a LOT of PDP-11 code! Given that I also have a "real" job - this has taken an extraordinary amount of work. I feel very relieved that the worst is over and now I can actually "play" with whatever I have archived. (Archived on tape, ZIP disks, and my companies RAID5 disk array - I'm not about to loose it now!!!). Additionally, I paid for the shipment of four huge boxes of TSX-Plus source listings to be sent from Nashville to California - and have given them to Al for scanning into bitsavers. While some of the source is in the archived data - most of it was "lost" by S&H at some point in history - except for the hard copy listings... After a bit of recovery time, I'll finally start getting TSXPlus, RTSORT, S&H COBOL and documentation - with licensing forms - on my Website for any and all PDP-11 hobbiests to download. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Dec 8 22:31:27 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:31:27 +1100 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software References: <0IR700ENFM00J133@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> From: "Allison" To: Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > > I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. I feel so young - 1979 and an Exidy Sorceror! :-) Lance http://landover.no-ip.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 8 22:35:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:35:58 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <0IR700ENFM00J133@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <439909AE.7080608@jetnet.ab.ca> Lance Lyon wrote: > From: "Allison" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:38 PM > Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win > Software > > >> >> I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. > > > I feel so young - 1979 and an Exidy Sorceror! :-) I feel so old - PDP/S in 1981 From drb at msu.edu Thu Dec 8 22:36:51 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:36:51 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:58:15 EST.) <001301c5fc5b$a3ec8f20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001301c5fc5b$a3ec8f20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200512090436.jB94apnt030330@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > But what the network needs first and foremost is a dedicated mailing list. I run a fairly large LISTSERV installation; I volunteer to do this. Eventually, it might be possible to run one of the old versions of LISTSERV-Lite on a VAX that is part of the network, but for starters, this would be a drop in the bucket on the big system. De From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 8 23:17:06 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:17:06 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <200512082207.54714.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512082207.54714.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200512090017.06991.pat@computer-refuge.org> Patrick Finnegan declared on Thursday 08 December 2005 22:07: > Scott Stevens declared on Thursday 08 December 2005 21:10: > > On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:05:24 -0500 > > > > John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 > > > system for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with > > > keyboards. they did not give option on taking them or buying > > > them =/ don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved > > > because they think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell > > > what they get instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it > > > and keeping it from the employees for personal use? > > > -John Boffemmyer IV > > > > I watched skids of Sparc hardware go out at a company I worked at > > around Y2K in a similar fashion. They had a 'contract' with the > > scrapper, they said, and 'couldn't play favorites'. There is a > > 'corporate culture' at some places where you're seen as a lunatic > > for even suggesting you might have an interest in 'that old > > stuff.' > > And that's one of the reasons I work for a university. Before Fred sees this, :) I want to add "with an enlightened boss above me who isn't a pain in the behind". (And the same with his manager.) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 8 23:27:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <200512090017.06991.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> <20051208211058.484aac17.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512082207.54714.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200512090017.06991.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20051208212328.F75725@shell.lmi.net> > > > I watched skids of Sparc hardware go out at a company I worked at > > > around Y2K in a similar fashion. They had a 'contract' with the > > > scrapper, they said, and 'couldn't play favorites'. There is a > > > 'corporate culture' at some places where you're seen as a lunatic > > > for even suggesting you might have an interest in 'that old > > > stuff.' > > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > And that's one of the reasons I work for a university. > > Before Fred sees this, :) I want to add "with an enlightened boss above > me who isn't a pain in the behind". (And the same with his manager.) You've sure got THAT right! One of my colleagues got into serious trouble for taking things out of a dumpster. Also, back when the computer lab was full of 5150s, and 286 machines were still over a grand, the administrators upgraded their 286 ATs to 386. (for running DOS WordPervert) When we asked for the old machines, to upgrade the lab, we were refused, because they were getting $50 each trade-in. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Thu Dec 8 23:59:04 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:59:04 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <200512090152.jB91prmG041793@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512090152.jB91prmG041793@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43991D28.9030209@seefried.com> From: "Robert Armstrong" > Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. It's late and I'm tired, but isn't moving things like DECnet around what something like GRE tunnels can solve? Build logical networks over the Internet and have your DECnet world. Lot's of things can do GRE these days (Linux, for example). > Probably there > just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry > about, and they have better targets for their efforts. True (as I deal with this for a living). The things that hackers are interested in using hacked machines for has changed. It's not about defacement any more, and if it's not high bandwidth and/or large storage, it's not worth the time. Not that you shouldn't be careful, though...:-) Ken From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 8 23:59:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:59:46 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512082159460093.0691643D@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 9:49 PM Allison wrote: >> >>Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software >> From: woodelf >> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> >> >>What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later >>the 8088. >>It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- >>8080 emulation and >>a better 16 bit design. > >Not that I know of. I remember being able to get 8088s before the 86s >and that was back in 78 or early 79. I think you're thinking of the NEC V20/ uPD70108 and the V30/uPD70116 CPUs. Plug-compatible with the 8088 and 8086, but with a couple of instructions added to switch modes into 8080 emulation. Overall, emulation was pretty good, but should have been Z80 instead of 8080 and there were a couple of small bugs in the emulation that weren't fixed. Most vendors used the V20/V30, however, because they were low-power CMOS. They also implemented some of the 80186 entensions, like ENTER and LEAVE and PUSHA/POPA and multi-bit immediate count shifts like SHR AX,5. If you've got an old 8088/8086 box and need to run some code compiled to use the 186/286 extensions, the V20/V30 is a very neat drop-in solution. Cheers, Chuck . From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:03:30 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:03:30 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a spare 68040/25 for a Quadra 605? In-Reply-To: <60814.207.71.246.177.1134084472.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <200512081519310369.0522F9DB@10.0.0.252> <60814.207.71.246.177.1134084472.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> Message-ID: <43991E32.6070007@gmail.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > I rescued an apple quadra 605 machine this weekend. Initially am going to use > it to recover some old files off floppies, but eventually I want to run netbsd > on it. And netbsd needs a full 68040, not the 68LC040 that's in the quadra > 605. > > so does anyone have a 68040 25mhz they like to part with cheap? I'm located > in Santa Barbara, California. I thought NetBSD works fine with the 68LC040, but wouldn't work with the 68*EC*040. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:07:33 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:07:33 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> References: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <43991F25.70000@gmail.com> Robert Armstrong wrote: >>How would you protect these older systems against abuse from >>the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in >>current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there >>are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose. > > > Depends on what you mean. Ordinary ("ordinary" :-) people who don't have > a VAX running Multinet and join the "network" wouldn't be able to get in to > any of the DECnet machines. > > However, it is true that the Multinet DECnet virtual circuit over IP has > virtually no security. It would be easy, if you knew a little bit about > DECnet and were so motivated, to sniff or spoof the traffic. Probably there > just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry > about, and they have better targets for their efforts. > > Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. Multinet v5.1 seems to have > the ability to do IPSEC, but I have no experience with that feature. If > it's anything like IPSEC on a PC, it's a lot of overhead for a poor VAX. Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP too. So will IBM Mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:11:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:11:46 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <090401c5fc59$5598e6e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> <090401c5fc59$5598e6e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43992022.7040504@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: >>Is anyone else interested in participating? > > > Yes I would be interested. > Might be extra neat to have it up for things like the VCF's, for example. > Good Luck! I'd be interested too. I have a cluster of 30+ VAXen lying around, along with other machines that support DECnet. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 00:11:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:11:48 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398E5ED.3030207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081753110664.05AFA824@10.0.0.252> <4398E5ED.3030207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512082211480642.069C6AB2@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 7:03 PM woodelf wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> MOV CX,9680H >> MOV DL, 98H >> TOP: >> ...all those stinkin instructions... >> LOOP TOP >> DEC DL >> JNZ TOP >> >> >> >; IS THIS WHAT YOU MENT? > MOV DL,98H >TOP: MOV CX,9680H >TOP2: >; MY STINKING INSTRUCTIONS > LOOP TOP2 > DEC DL > JNZ TOP Nope, but it did copy the number down wrong off my HP-16C. That should be 99H, not 98H loaded into DL. Alternatively, you could change the bottom JNZ to a JNS. Consider what happens. You execute one iteration of 38528 times through the inner loop. The remainder of 152 trips through the outer loop, you execute 65536 iterations each time for 9961472 total iterations. Add the 38528 for the first time and you get (surprise!) 10000000. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 9 00:19:21 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 01:19:21 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <20051208212328.F75725@shell.lmi.net> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051206190241.033ea870@boff-net.dhs.org> <200512090017.06991.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051208212328.F75725@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512090119.21390.pat@computer-refuge.org> Fred Cisin declared on Friday 09 December 2005 00:27: > > > > I watched skids of Sparc hardware go out at a company I worked > > > > at around Y2K in a similar fashion. They had a 'contract' with > > > > the scrapper, they said, and 'couldn't play favorites'. There > > > > is a 'corporate culture' at some places where you're seen as a > > > > lunatic for even suggesting you might have an interest in 'that > > > > old stuff.' > > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > And that's one of the reasons I work for a university. > > > > Before Fred sees this, :) I want to add "with an enlightened boss > > above me who isn't a pain in the behind". (And the same with his > > manager.) > > You've sure got THAT right! > > One of my colleagues got into serious trouble for taking things out of > a dumpster. Talking about stupid, one of the physical facilities employees here was given a couple days off for attempting to steal.. LEAVES! Aparently, he was loading some leaves fallen off tress on campus into the back of his truck, some bean-counter saw him, and he almost got fired over the incident. A nice, sane, intelligent manager makes all the difference... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:25:32 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:25:32 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4399235C.2060704@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Write a loop that executes, oh, 10,000,000 times. Get a stopwatch. >> Start the program and the stopwatch simultaneously, stop the stopwatch >> when >> the loop ends. >> >> >> > Hmm I need a real PC and a real StopWatch! The watch could be hard to find > since they don't make mechanical ones anymore. They're still being made, but they're nowhere near as cheap as they were once upon a time. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 9 00:28:51 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:28:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a spare 68040/25 for a Quadra 605? In-Reply-To: <43991E32.6070007@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Dec 9, 5 01:03:30 am" Message-ID: <200512090628.WAA14418@floodgap.com> > I thought NetBSD works fine with the 68LC040, but wouldn't work with the > 68*EC*040. I don't know about the EC040, but the base install does not work with the LC. There is an -msoft-float build which will work on the LC040, but it's inconvenient. Simpler just to replace the CPU. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Where there's a will, there's a probate. ----------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 9 00:29:35 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:29:35 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512082211480642.069C6AB2@10.0.0.252> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081711470873.0589C1D5@10.0.0.252> <4398DEE5.10102@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512081753110664.05AFA824@10.0.0.252> <4398E5ED.3030207@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512082211480642.069C6AB2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4399244F.3040008@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Nope, but it did copy the number down wrong off my HP-16C. That should be >99H, not 98H loaded into DL. Alternatively, you could change the bottom >JNZ to a JNS. > > Wow a real calculator. >Consider what happens. You execute one iteration of 38528 times through >the inner loop. The remainder of 152 trips through the outer loop, you >execute 65536 iterations each time for 9961472 total iterations. Add the >38528 for the first time and you get (surprise!) 10000000. > > I was thinking a loop like 200 of 50000 but the hex numbers threw me off. Now how long will it take to run? >Cheers, >Chuck > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 00:33:13 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:33:13 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <0IR700ENFM00J133@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <43992529.4070006@gmail.com> Lance Lyon wrote: > From: "Allison" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:38 PM > Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > > >> >> I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. > > > I feel so young - 1979 and an Exidy Sorceror! :-) I'm only 28, and my father had a PDP-11/70 in our apartment when I was born. I still have that machine... Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 00:47:25 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:47:25 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR700G6YLR5S68D@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR700G6YLR5S68D@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 9:33 PM -0500 12/8/05, Allison wrote: > > [The first "personal" VAX I ever owned was a VS2000, around 1989/1990. I >>used to come home, turn it on, and I could make dinner while I waited for it >>to boot and start DECwindows!] > >I have three of them, one is used for formatting disks both floppy and hard. >My first uVAX was a MicroVAX-II in BA23, still have it. Is a VS2000 really that slow to boot? I own one, but it has memory problems, they don't prevent me from formating drives, but they do prevent it from booting an OS. My first uVAX was a VAXstation II/RC in a BA23, I've still got it, though the monitor needs repaired. My second was a MicroVAX II in a BA123, and was the first VAX I got running, it's now my PDP-11/73. I've never seen a MicroVAX II boot slow enough to make dinner :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Fri Dec 9 00:48:21 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:48:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a spare 68040/25 for a Quadra 605? In-Reply-To: <43991E32.6070007@gmail.com> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <200512081519310369.0522F9DB@10.0.0.252> <60814.207.71.246.177.1134084472.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com> <43991E32.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12757.68.108.252.223.1134110901.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> On Thu, December 8, 2005 10:03 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I thought NetBSD works fine with the 68LC040, but wouldn't work with the > 68*EC*040. I had to go look that up: 68040: cpu + mmu + fpu 68LC040: cpu + mmu (no fpu) 68EC040: cpu (no mmu or fpu) >From what I read, netbsd requires the mmu. There is a software fpu in netbsd, but it's not totally complete so some things crash. Btw, someone emailed me and I have a new cpu on the way. Sweet! Jeff From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 00:58:33 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:58:33 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR7005IHFUHCYV0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR7005IHFUHCYV0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 7:26 PM -0500 12/8/05, Allison wrote: >There used to be a TOAD on the net (DEC system20 or somesuch), Is it still? Paul Allen has a DECSYSTEM-2065 online running TOPS-10 V7.04, and a XKL Toad-1 running TOPS-20 V7.1. I'm kicking myself right now, I don't have a link to this on my PDP-10 emulation webpage, simply a statement that he has them online. There is an actual website for these systems. Finally, it took a while even with Google. http://www.pdpplanet.com/ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 01:13:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:13:20 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <43991F25.70000@gmail.com> References: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> <43991F25.70000@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1:07 AM -0500 12/9/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP too. So will >IBM Mainframes. > >Peace... Sridhar So, does this mean that if a Hobbyist DECnet gets up and running, you'll hook an IBM Mainframe up to it :^) I for one think that would be seriously cool, but no, I don't seriously expect you to :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 01:16:38 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:16:38 -0800 Subject: TSX Plus distribution status... In-Reply-To: <200512081950.35830.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200512081950.35830.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: At 7:50 PM -0800 12/8/05, Lyle Bickley wrote: >After a bit of recovery time, I'll finally start getting TSXPlus, RTSORT, S&H >COBOL and documentation - with licensing forms - on my Website for any and >all PDP-11 hobbiests to download. Thank you for the update, I can't wait! I for one am anxiously awaiting the release! Thank you for all the effort! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 9 01:21:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:21:19 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4398EC4B.3090304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4398B2A0.1000509@oldskool.org> <4398CD71.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> <4398E448.40003@oldskool.org> <4398EC4B.3090304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4399306F.2070503@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > I thought the pre-fetch queue was longer than that. Still most > instructions I bet are 3 to 4 bytes long when you 4 measly bytes: Hey, better to have 4 bytes than none at all. As for 3-4 bytes long, remember, the Bus Interface Unit can be fetching at the same time an instruction is executing, so that's where you go break out the Zen timer. There are gray areas, such as: Which is faster on 8088? A or B? A: SHL AX,1 B: MOV CL,3 SHL AX,1 SHL AX,CL SHL AX,1 A is faster. Now add another shift: A: SHL AX,1 B: MOV CL,4 SHL AX,1 SHL AX,CL SHL AX,1 SHL AX,1 B (and all subsequent increases in operand) is faster. So that's the 10% I was mentioning where you just have to time it to find out whether or not the BIU or EU won the race. Same goes for multiple INCs vs. ADD reg,immediate vs. ADD reg,reg vs. ADD accum.,reg (ADDing with AX/AL is smaller/faster than with other registers) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 9 01:22:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:22:45 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <43992529.4070006@gmail.com> References: <0IR700ENFM00J133@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <011301c5fc79$6f9f9960$0100a8c0@pentium> <43992529.4070006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439930C5.5020500@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm only 28, and my father had a PDP-11/70 in our apartment when I was > born. I still have that machine... Now how the hell am I supposed to compete with that? :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 01:35:45 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:35:45 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: References: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> <43991F25.70000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439933D1.2060206@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:07 AM -0500 12/9/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP too. So will >> IBM Mainframes. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > > So, does this mean that if a Hobbyist DECnet gets up and running, you'll > hook an IBM Mainframe up to it :^) > > I for one think that would be seriously cool, but no, I don't seriously > expect you to :^) I just bought a house, so it's going to be a few months before I can afford to power it again, but I wouldn't mind hooking my G1 to it. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 9 02:00:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 03:00:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> References: <000901c5fc56$5dc7f660$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <200512090803.DAA18514@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Probably there just aren't many hackers out there who know enough > about DECnet to worry about, I suspect there are actually plenty of them - several are probably on this very list - but most (verging on all, would be my guess) are honest enough to be no problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 05:53:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:53:16 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR800LTTBNQMDJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: woodelf > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:35:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Lance Lyon wrote: > >> From: "Allison" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:38 PM >> Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win >> Software >> >> >>> >>> I've been around computers since I met a strapping PDP-8I back in '69. >> >> >> I feel so young - 1979 and an Exidy Sorceror! :-) > >I feel so old - PDP/S in 1981 > . and I lift PDP-8s and the like nd should know better. Ouch! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 06:35:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:35:51 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:59:46 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/8/2005 at 9:49 PM Allison wrote: > >>> >>>Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win >Software >>> From: woodelf >>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:30:35 -0700 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>> >>> >>>What I do find odd that the 8086 came out first then a few years later >>>the 8088. >>>It still think the 8086/8086 could have had two instruction sets -- >>>8080 emulation and >>>a better 16 bit design. >> >>Not that I know of. I remember being able to get 8088s before the 86s >>and that was back in 78 or early 79. > >I think you're thinking of the NEC V20/ uPD70108 and the V30/uPD70116 CPUs. > Plug-compatible with the 8088 and 8086, but with a couple of instructions >added to switch modes into 8080 emulation. Overall, emulation was pretty >good, but should have been Z80 instead of 8080 and there were a couple of >small bugs in the emulation that weren't fixed. The V series were 1982 introduction. I was with NEC on the launch. By then >Most vendors used the V20/V30, however, because they were low-power CMOS. >They also implemented some of the 80186 entensions, like ENTER and LEAVE >and PUSHA/POPA and multi-bit immediate count shifts like SHR AX,5. If >you've got an old 8088/8086 box and need to run some code compiled to use >the 186/286 extensions, the V20/V30 is a very neat drop-in solution. Not initially, The first generation of Vseries were NMOS. I have samples of both. The other differences were internal effective address calculation was handled differntly from 8088 which shaved a few cycles of the execution. For the same clock V series were between 5-10% faster. Also the V20/V30 had 8080 emulation. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 06:37:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:37:39 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR800DFJDPQU99F@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:07:33 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Robert Armstrong wrote: >>>How would you protect these older systems against abuse from >>>the random crackers? VMS is probably tolerably safe in >>>current versions, if properly managed, but I'm betting there >>>are problems with other OSes. You could do vpns, I suppose. >> >> >> Depends on what you mean. Ordinary ("ordinary" :-) people who don't have >> a VAX running Multinet and join the "network" wouldn't be able to get in to >> any of the DECnet machines. >> >> However, it is true that the Multinet DECnet virtual circuit over IP has >> virtually no security. It would be easy, if you knew a little bit about >> DECnet and were so motivated, to sniff or spoof the traffic. Probably there >> just aren't many hackers out there who know enough about DECnet to worry >> about, and they have better targets for their efforts. >> >> Yes, you could solve the problem with VPNs. Multinet v5.1 seems to have >> the ability to do IPSEC, but I have no experience with that feature. If >> it's anything like IPSEC on a PC, it's a lot of overhead for a poor VAX. > >Ciscos will do DECnet Phase IV secure tunnels over IP too. So will IBM >Mainframes. > >Peace... Sridhar At one time DECnet was the routing protocal for other tunneled protocals. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 06:49:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:49:48 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR8005K2E9YCXV2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:47:25 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 9:33 PM -0500 12/8/05, Allison wrote: >> > [The first "personal" VAX I ever owned was a VS2000, around 1989/1990. I >>>used to come home, turn it on, and I could make dinner while I waited for it >>>to boot and start DECwindows!] >> >>I have three of them, one is used for formatting disks both floppy and hard. >>My first uVAX was a MicroVAX-II in BA23, still have it. > >Is a VS2000 really that slow to boot? I own one, but it has memory >problems, they don't prevent me from formating drives, but they do >prevent it from booting an OS. The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic were running. However if the startup of the various added processes (DECNnet and DECwindows) is in the wrong order or done all at once the process can drag out as you run into needing one to enable the next and they are all eating up the cpu at the same time. A little tweeking of SYS$startup.com makes a differnce. One thing is pruning off unused or unneeded stuff. >My first uVAX was a VAXstation II/RC in a BA23, I've still got it, >though the monitor needs repaired. My second was a MicroVAX II in a >BA123, and was the first VAX I got running, it's now my PDP-11/73. >I've never seen a MicroVAX II boot slow enough to make dinner :^) > > Zane I always used VT100/125 or VT340 as they are smaller than the huge 19" DECwindows tube. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 06:52:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:52:19 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR800IC0EE52O08@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:22:45 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I'm only 28, and my father had a PDP-11/70 in our apartment when I was >> born. I still have that machine... > >Now how the hell am I supposed to compete with that? :-) You dont. A base PDP11/70 was less than three racks and only a bit power hungry. But it was the machine! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 06:56:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:56:37 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR800D86ELFRWF1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: der Mouse > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 03:00:23 -0500 (EST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Probably there just aren't many hackers out there who know enough >> about DECnet to worry about, > >I suspect there are actually plenty of them - several are probably on >this very list - but most (verging on all, would be my guess) are >honest enough to be no problem. > There's a story of a VAX at DEFCON that was subjected to the hordes and stood well. VMS has good security out of the box, always did. It can be made very tight without much effort and it's also so different from PCs (Hardend OS and protection in hardware) so security by obscurity doesn't hurt. Allison From ceby2 at csc.com Fri Dec 9 09:51:42 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (ceby2 at csc.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:51:42 +0100 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <200512082333.jB8NWlAY038680@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >There's actually a couple of ways. You can do it through the front-end, >and you can do it over a SAN. >Peace... Sridhar >Sridhar - Okay, lemme clarify. The system is a 9221, air cooled rack mount system (built in 1992). So yes it's a ES9000 as opposed to an s390. Sorry I'm still getting used to the distinctions. I was working in Windows and UNIX when this system was out. I only started playing with big iron relatively recently. This one's pretty low end, 64 MB main, parallel channel adapter and as I mentioned, the older 9332-400 DASD. The features I have right now or communication and DASD/tape. I finished sorting through the cables, and irritatingly I need to find some bus&tag DB78 stock before I can hook up the 9332s. Anyone trying to dump bus & tag DB78 cabling? And, coming back to what you wrote, Sridhar, I wasn't sure what you meant by defining minidisk through the front end? Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Dec 9 10:48:58 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reading Mac 800k Disks on Non-Mac Systems In-Reply-To: <200512020940.jB29edhB021686@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051209164858.48329.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On my Atari 520-ST, I have a "Magic Sac" from David Small, that emulates a Mac 128/512 or a Mac Plus with the appropriate ROMS. I bought the optional "Transporter One" which is a seperate computer (Z-80 Based, I think...) that reads and writes to 800k Floppies using the Floppy Controller port and the MIDI ports on the ST to communicate to the Transporter One. I also have a Spectre GCR, which is the follow on product when David Small started his own company. This unit has something in it that allows it to read/write to 800k Floppies without the Transporter One. The Transporter is slow, and we used to convert Mac Floppies to the Proprietary Magic Sac 800k Format that could be accessed with the ST's Floppy Controller. This was a pretty neat solution at the time, giving one a FASTER Mac than a Mac, with a bigger screen and access to Parallel Printers (using "Epstart"). I did a lot of advertising work on my ST back in the day. Unfortunately, my AERCO Ram upgrade gave up the ghost, and I can't find the Docs for it. So, I'm back to 512k unless I want to piggyback some RAM and take it up to 1024k. Used to have 2.5mb, which for a Mac Plus was plenty! Someday, I'll get it working again... Or find a MegaST cheap with a Hard Drive. Those were nice systems. A shame Atari didn't sell them as business computers in a professional form factor. I also used to have a Trackstar 128, which would allow a PC to Emulate an Apple ][+, and with a minor mod to certain floppy drives... Read and Write Apple II disks natively. I've gotta find another one of those someday. I think I have a board here called a "Hydra", at least... That's what the guy who sold it to me said it was... It was a board for an AT that was a MacPlus on a board, and allowed the PC to run Mac Software. I don't have any docs, software, or cables for it... And I'm not even sure this board IS a "Hydra" board. It has a 68k processor on it, but I don't see any Mac ROMS. This might be a terminal emulator board that someone thought was a Hydra Board. Regards, Al Hartman Philadelphia, PA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 11:01:55 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:01:55 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR8005K2E9YCXV2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR8005K2E9YCXV2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 7:49 AM -0500 12/9/05, Allison wrote: > >My first uVAX was a VAXstation II/RC in a BA23, I've still got it, >>though the monitor needs repaired. My second was a MicroVAX II in a >>BA123, and was the first VAX I got running, it's now my PDP-11/73. >>I've never seen a MicroVAX II boot slow enough to make dinner :^) >> >> Zane > >I always used VT100/125 or VT340 as they are smaller than the huge 19" >DECwindows tube. > >Allison Actually for the most part I've always used a VT220, VT320, or now VT420's. I don't think I ever managed to get the VAXstation II/RC booted when the monitor was working, and once I actually wanted to, I discovered the monitor wasn't working. For the past several years it's been sitting in a storage unit under a DECwriter II terminal. I ended up with the MicroVAX II before I could get ahold of a replacement disk and copy of the OS for the II/RC. In the past, I have used 17" to 21" monitors on my Alpha's running VMS, and come to think of it I briefly had my VS4000VLC hooked up to the 17". Still for the last 5+ years all I've normally used is a VT420 as the system console and simply used telnet or ssh to connect to a shell session. Every few months I pull up a DECwindows session on my Mac. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Dec 9 10:45:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:45:37 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR800D86ELFRWF1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR800D86ELFRWF1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4399B4B1.9090301@atarimuseum.com> Well... after VMS 3 it started to have good security out of the box... I think 5.5-4 was one of the better and more secure versions... Curt Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network >> From: der Mouse >> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 03:00:23 -0500 (EST) >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> >> >>>Probably there just aren't many hackers out there who know enough >>>about DECnet to worry about, >>> >>> >>I suspect there are actually plenty of them - several are probably on >>this very list - but most (verging on all, would be my guess) are >>honest enough to be no problem. >> >> >> > >There's a story of a VAX at DEFCON that was subjected to the hordes >and stood well. VMS has good security out of the box, always did. >It can be made very tight without much effort and it's also so different >from PCs (Hardend OS and protection in hardware) so security by obscurity >doesn't hurt. > > >Allison > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 9 11:23:14 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:23:14 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR800LTTBNQMDJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR800LTTBNQMDJC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4399BD82.9050709@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >. and I lift PDP-8s and the like nd should know better. Ouch! > > > Then I go and use the PDP-8/e beside it.:) >Allison > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 9 11:30:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:30:17 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >The other differences were internal effective address calculation was handled >differntly from 8088 which shaved a few cycles of the execution. For the >same clock V series were between 5-10% faster. Also the V20/V30 had 8080 >emulation. > > > I had forgotton about the V20's. Still a good way to get a few more % of speed. I don't think anybody used the 8080 emulation unless you had CP/M software you needed to run. MSDOS was the only big OS being pushed as I think Pascal and CP/M86 had been discontinued by then. >Allison > >. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 11:32:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 12:32:58 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <0IR800EOSRDTQFAG@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:01:55 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At 7:49 AM -0500 12/9/05, Allison wrote: >> >My first uVAX was a VAXstation II/RC in a BA23, I've still got it, >>>though the monitor needs repaired. My second was a MicroVAX II in a >>>BA123, and was the first VAX I got running, it's now my PDP-11/73. >>>I've never seen a MicroVAX II boot slow enough to make dinner :^) >>> >>> Zane >> >>I always used VT100/125 or VT340 as they are smaller than the huge 19" >>DECwindows tube. >> >>Allison > >Actually for the most part I've always used a VT220, VT320, or now >VT420's. I don't think I ever managed to get the VAXstation II/RC >booted when the monitor was working, and once I actually wanted to, I >discovered the monitor wasn't working. For the past several years >it's been sitting in a storage unit under a DECwriter II terminal. I >ended up with the MicroVAX II before I could get ahold of a >replacement disk and copy of the OS for the II/RC. I have a choice of terminals to use and a tube or two. VT100, Vt125, H19, VT320, VT340 and a VT1200. If all else failes PC running PROCOM. I also have a VR160 and 190. >In the past, I have used 17" to 21" monitors on my Alpha's running >VMS, and come to think of it I briefly had my VS4000VLC hooked up to >the 17". Still for the last 5+ years all I've normally used is a >VT420 as the system console and simply used telnet or ssh to connect >to a shell session. Every few months I pull up a DECwindows session >on my Mac. > > Zane The only thing I havent tried is an Xwindows session on a PC. I do have Pathworks and the LAT interface is ok too. Generally I don't need to connect physically with the VAXen as they are small require minimal attention and live happily while tucked in a corner. Where the PCs need attention, the reset swich must be accessable and they must have a local console to be remotely useful as anything but a server and even then a tube is needed for diagnostic work. ;) Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 11:54:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:54:34 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512090954340095.091FD1B7@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 7:35 AM Allison wrote: >The other differences were internal effective address calculation was >handled >differntly from 8088 which shaved a few cycles of the execution. For the >same clock V series were between 5-10% faster. Also the V20/V30 had 8080 >emulation. Hmmm, thought I just said that. One of the more highly-touted performance improvements in the V20/V30 was the implemenation of dual internal data busses. In practice, I don't know if it made a huge difference in speed, but NEC claimed up to a 30% improvement for som operations.. FWIW, my reference manual for the 70108/70116 is dated August 1985 and identifies both as "Low Power CMOS"; no mention otherwise of any other fab technology. NEC did later offer the -H series variants (V20H, V30H, etc.) which featured fully static operation and lower power consumption than the V20/V30--and you could get them in clock speeds of up to 16 MHz. I've got a reasonably thick folder in my files titled "Natick" with a bunch of correspondence with the NEC folks there on the whole subject. The V40, which was sort of an 80188 in CMOS (PGA, QFP and PLCC pacakges) also claimed to emulate the 8080 instruction set, but I never got hold of one to try it out (or I didn't care to). I thought it interesting that the 8080 emulation of the V20/V30 emulated the Intel 8080A and not tne NEC 8080A instruction set. Cheers, Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Dec 9 12:18:34 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:18:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <200512091800.jB9I04sx051776@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051209181834.88739.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A question... Anyone remember a board called "The Trash Compactor"? I went into a TRS-80 Model I case, and basically turned it into a Model III. It included the Disk Controller, Serial Interface and parallel interface all on one board. If anyone even has info about this board, I'd be interested to see it. Thanks! Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 9 12:25:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:25:09 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512090954340095.091FD1B7@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200512090954340095.091FD1B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4399CC05.6070009@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Hmmm, thought I just said that. One of the more highly-touted performance >improvements in the V20/V30 was the implemenation of dual internal data >busses. In practice, I don't know if it made a huge difference in speed, >but NEC claimed up to a 30% improvement for som operations.. > > > That was a long time ago ... the XT clone wars. Back then a M$ mouse $100. No need to gouge the public with windows /85 :) >I thought it interesting that the 8080 emulation of the V20/V30 emulated >the Intel 8080A and not tne NEC 8080A instruction set. > > > So what instructions did the NEC 8080A have different? >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > >. > > > From bob at jfcl.com Fri Dec 9 12:24:55 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:24:55 -0800 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) In-Reply-To: <0IR8005K2E9YCXV2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001c01c5fced$de39dd30$0401010a@jfcl.com> > The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never > thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic > were running. RD5x drives are painfully slow, and this is especially a problem in the VS2000 because the integrated disk controller a) lacks DMA, and b) lacks the T11 chip to do local processing found in a RQDXn - the uVAX CPU has to do all the work. Starting DECwindows, especially, took forever... [Also, maybe I can cook dinner faster than you :-)] Bob From bob at jfcl.com Fri Dec 9 12:26:41 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:26:41 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR800DFJDPQU99F@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001d01c5fcee$1a8fb9d0$0401010a@jfcl.com> > At one time DECnet was the routing protocal for other > tunneled protocals. Multinet can still do IP over DECnet (which is the exact opposite of what we're talking about!). Dunno if that's actually useful anymore ... Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 12:35:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:35:15 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR8002R7U9MWF8B@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:54:34 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/9/2005 at 7:35 AM Allison wrote: > >>The other differences were internal effective address calculation was >>handled >>differntly from 8088 which shaved a few cycles of the execution. For the >>same clock V series were between 5-10% faster. Also the V20/V30 had 8080 >>emulation. > >Hmmm, thought I just said that. One of the more highly-touted performance >improvements in the V20/V30 was the implemenation of dual internal data >busses. In practice, I don't know if it made a huge difference in speed, >but NEC claimed up to a 30% improvement for som operations.. I added why it was faster. For the V20 in a XT clone it was easily 10% and for the V30 is was more.. Really nice parts. I'm generally not into 8088 but I've kept some of the older and newer V20s that have crossed my path for "maybe one day". The faster parts could scream. I kept a Tandy 1000hx because it was odd and used the V20. >FWIW, my reference manual for the 70108/70116 is dated August 1985 and >identifies both as "Low Power CMOS"; no mention otherwise of any other fab >technology. NEC did later offer the -H series variants (V20H, V30H, etc.) >which featured fully static operation and lower power consumption than the >V20/V30--and you could get them in clock speeds of up to 16 MHz. Those were the HCMOS process the change was mostly for speed. >I've got a reasonably thick folder in my files titled "Natick" with a bunch >of correspondence with the NEC folks there on the whole subject. The V40, >which was sort of an 80188 in CMOS (PGA, QFP and PLCC pacakges) also >claimed to emulate the 8080 instruction set, but I never got hold of one to >try it out (or I didn't care to). Likely from my old office and boss. By 85 it was CMOS before that it was NMOS. Even the first NMOS parts were really hybrid and much lower in power than the HMOSII from intel. Between 82 and 85 NEC was working on CMOS designs real hard and the first non-propritory 8 bit parts were 80C35. I have a few of the first samples with the page boundary bug, fixed in production. The V40/50 parts were still futures in 83 when I left. But looked interesting. >I thought it interesting that the 8080 emulation of the V20/V30 emulated >the Intel 8080A and not tne NEC 8080A instruction set. > >Cheers, >Chuck Well the Intel 8080A and the NEC8080AF are the same. NEC discontinued the incompatable 8080 version back around '78, they got burnt bad. The V20 implemented the 8080AF as bad memories were not lost. I have both versions. Taught them a lesson in compatability that wasn't forgotten. Even the 8085 and D780(Z80) execute the same undocumented instructions. On the other hand there is a sorta improved Z80 like thing NEC did, the ucom7800 series and they are interesting. Looks Z80 like but the instruction set is anything but. I have a bunch of the PIGGYback (78PG11) and romless 7800 parts. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 12:38:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:38:46 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR800BFXUFHC8K3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:25:09 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>Hmmm, thought I just said that. One of the more highly-touted performance >>improvements in the V20/V30 was the implemenation of dual internal data >>busses. In practice, I don't know if it made a huge difference in speed, >>but NEC claimed up to a 30% improvement for som operations.. >> >> >> >That was a long time ago ... the XT clone wars. Back then a M$ mouse $100. >No need to gouge the public with windows /85 :) > >>I thought it interesting that the 8080 emulation of the V20/V30 emulated >>the Intel 8080A and not tne NEC 8080A instruction set. >> >> >> >So what instructions did the NEC 8080A have different? > >>Cheers, >>Chuck The early NEC 8080 (round lid prior to 77ish) set the flags wrong I believe it was the sign flag though I'd have to check. After IMSAI and others dumped them for the big they redesigned to exactly match the Intel 8080A, NEC part was 8080AF. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 12:46:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:46:54 -0500 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) Message-ID: <0IR800IVWUT134W8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:24:55 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never >> thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic >> were running. > > RD5x drives are painfully slow, and this is especially a problem in the >VS2000 because the integrated disk controller a) lacks DMA, and b) lacks the >T11 chip to do local processing found in a RQDXn - the uVAX CPU has to do >all the work. Nope. the SMC9224 part did have DMA. It didn't have the ability to DMA further than 16mbytes. It was the MSPC translation to that part that was painful. It also had SCSI via the NCR5380, but since SCSI was not yet a standard it doesnt talk to anything useful (OK, other than the TK50). the lack of T11 was less a hit than lack of the implied buffering it gave. The uVAX-II was not that much faster in booting. Oh if you had less than 8mb ram the swapping was very painful!!! And most only had 2M or 4m. > Starting DECwindows, especially, took forever... > > [Also, maybe I can cook dinner faster than you :-)] >Bob Nah, I order out. Standard programming foods, PIZZA! ;) Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 12:48:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:48:16 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4399CC05.6070009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200512090954340095.091FD1B7@10.0.0.252> <4399CC05.6070009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512091048160008.0950FB50@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 11:25 AM woodelf wrote: >So what instructions did the NEC 8080A have different? The NEC 8080A kept an extra flag around in the status register, the "subtract" flag. Again, this ties in with that awful DAA instruction. Suppose you have the following code: mvi a,22h sbi 13h daa On the Intel 8080a, thre result's 15h, which is clearly wrong. However, on the NEC, it's correctly rendered as 09h, since the NEC tracks the use of the subtract, rather than an add. The Z80 does this also. However, this isn't a fatal error in the Intel part; you simply have to do your BCD subtracts using 10's complement addition. So, 10's complement of 13h is 87h and mvi a,22h adi 87h daa Correctly yields 09h. The 8086 has the DAS instruction to adjust BCD subtracts, but the 8080 lacks it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 12:52:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:52:21 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR800BFXUFHC8K3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR800BFXUFHC8K3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512091052210631.0954BAC7@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 1:38 PM Allison wrote: >The early NEC 8080 (round lid prior to 77ish) set the flags wrong >I believe it was the sign flag though I'd have to check. After IMSAI >and others dumped them for the big they redesigned to exactly match >the Intel 8080A, NEC part was 8080AF. I thought it was interesting that although IMSAI wouldn't use the NEC 8080A part on their CPU cards, they freely used it in their floppy controller. Probably to use up old stock, who knows? Cheers, Chuck (still got one of them old round-lid NECs) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 13:00:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:00:19 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR8002R7U9MWF8B@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR8002R7U9MWF8B@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512091100190659.095C0613@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 1:35 PM Allison wrote: >I added why it was faster. For the V20 in a XT clone it was easily 10% and >for the V30 is was more.. Yes, but there the tech manuals and your explanation disagree. NEC seems to think that the dual data busses were the big thing, but you mentioned the EA calculation difference. Wonder which resulted in more performance boost. >On the other hand there is a sorta improved Z80 like thing NEC did, the >ucom7800 series and they are interesting. Looks Z80 like but the >instruction set is anything but. I have a bunch of the PIGGYback >(78PG11) and romless 7800 parts. Just look at the Rabbit 2000 instruction set. "Sort of Z80" is the best way to describe it. Many additions and deletions. Before I programmed it, I had two choices--either sit down with the manual and carefully note differences or program it in C, the way Rabbit wanted me to. Suffice it to say that the level of binary compatibility would be a serious barrier to getting Wordstar running, if that was one's intent. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Dec 9 13:03:42 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:03:42 -0000 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) In-Reply-To: <001c01c5fced$de39dd30$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <003001c5fcf3$4705ebb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Robert Armstrong wrote: >> The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never >> thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic >> were running. > > RD5x drives are painfully slow, and this is especially a problem in > the VS2000 because the integrated disk controller a) lacks DMA, and > b) lacks the T11 chip to do local processing found in a RQDXn - the > uVAX CPU has to do all the work. Wolfgang Moeller produced some patches way back when for the uVAX/VS 2000 that would allow it to use a SCSI disk. Never actually tried it myself (as I had RD drives available and faster machines if I just wanted speed). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Dec 9 13:06:40 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:06:40 -0000 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR800DFJDPQU99F@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003101c5fcf3$b0cb1980$5b01a8c0@pc1> Allison wrote: > At one time DECnet was the routing protocal for other tunneled > protocals. There used to be various DEC and 3rd party boxes that acted as DECnet-to-SNA gateways. So far as the DEC ones are concerned, the low-end SNA/Gateway variant ran (IIRC) on the old Microserver. One of the higher end ones ran on a stripped down MicroVAX 3000 series with special channel-attach hardware. I guess these days the average mainframe just does IP! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Dec 9 13:07:40 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:07:40 -0000 Subject: TSX Plus distribution status... In-Reply-To: <200512081950.35830.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <003201c5fcf3$d490a970$5b01a8c0@pc1> Lyle Bickley wrote: > After a bit of recovery time, I'll finally start getting TSXPlus, > RTSORT, S&H COBOL and documentation - with licensing forms - on my > Website for any and all PDP-11 hobbiests to download. I'm amazed that you managed to get all of that out of them. Very impressive! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 13:09:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:09:54 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512091109540866.0964CCFA@10.0.0.252> On 12/8/2005 at 9:49 PM Allison wrote: However, the 8089 IOP was a piece of cruft and one big pain to debug. Expensive, short-sighted and brain-dead, but it did have a flat 20-bit addressing space. The 186 with integrated periopherals and 20 bit DMA pretty much put the kebosh on it. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 13:12:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:12:24 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR800DRYVZJUKRG@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:52:21 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/9/2005 at 1:38 PM Allison wrote: > >>The early NEC 8080 (round lid prior to 77ish) set the flags wrong >>I believe it was the sign flag though I'd have to check. After IMSAI >>and others dumped them for the big they redesigned to exactly match >>the Intel 8080A, NEC part was 8080AF. > >I thought it was interesting that although IMSAI wouldn't use the NEC 8080A >part on their CPU cards, they freely used it in their floppy controller. >Probably to use up old stock, who knows? > >Cheers, >Chuck >(still got one of them old round-lid NECs) the FDC was canned code (rom) so they know what it was going to do. the S100 cpu broke with some basics using the NEC. Funny thing is the Intel data from '74 may also have been misleading. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 13:20:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:20:18 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 11:00:19 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/9/2005 at 1:35 PM Allison wrote: > >>I added why it was faster. For the V20 in a XT clone it was easily 10% and >>for the V30 is was more.. > >Yes, but there the tech manuals and your explanation disagree. NEC seems >to think that the dual data busses were the big thing, but you mentioned >the EA calculation difference. Wonder which resulted in more performance >boost. Both. The address calc was on the wider bus so that it was not in a critical path. You needed the busses inorder to do the cal with fewer cycles and intermediate temp storage. The EA calc and the dual busses were important when Intel went to court over it. There were distinct differnces how they worked inside even though the socket was the same. What I never figured out for sure was if the 8080 used current segment or not. the differnce is the 8080 emulation would then be capable of running as if there were N many (available ram/64k) differnt ram areas making a banked 8080 possible. then again I never really looked at that seriously enough to implement. >>On the other hand there is a sorta improved Z80 like thing NEC did, the >>ucom7800 series and they are interesting. Looks Z80 like but the >>instruction set is anything but. I have a bunch of the PIGGYback >>(78PG11) and romless 7800 parts. > >Just look at the Rabbit 2000 instruction set. "Sort of Z80" is the best >way to describe it. Many additions and deletions. Before I programmed it, >I had two choices--either sit down with the manual and carefully note >differences or program it in C, the way Rabbit wanted me to. Suffice it to >say that the level of binary compatibility would be a serious barrier to >getting Wordstar running, if that was one's intent. ;) Fortuately the 7800 never claimed to be Z80. However to anyone familiar it was the same hardware different microprogram. Nice microcontroller with analog. Allison From dittman at dittman.net Fri Dec 9 13:19:35 2005 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:19:35 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <20051209181834.88739.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051209181834.88739.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4399D8C7.1050400@dittman.net> Al Hartman wrote: > A question... > > Anyone remember a board called "The Trash Compactor"? > > I went into a TRS-80 Model I case, and basically > turned it into a Model III. > > It included the Disk Controller, Serial Interface and > parallel interface all on one board. > > If anyone even has info about this board, I'd be > interested to see it. Is this the one from Norcom (I think that's the name). If so, I have one but I've never found any documentation or even old ads for it. -- Eric Dittman dittman at dittman.net From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Dec 9 13:35:01 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:35:01 +0100 Subject: Reading Mac 800k Disks on Non-Mac Systems In-Reply-To: <20051209164858.48329.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051209190539.CA8A139665@linux.local> On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:48:58 -0800 (PST), Al Hartman wrote: : > >I think I have a board here called a "Hydra", at >least... That's what the guy who sold it to me said it >was... It was a board for an AT that was a MacPlus on >a board, and allowed the PC to run Mac Software. I >don't have any docs, software, or cables for it... > >And I'm not even sure this board IS a "Hydra" board. > >It has a 68k processor on it, but I don't see any Mac >ROMS. > >This might be a terminal emulator board that someone >thought was a Hydra Board. > : I've such a board here as well, but unfortunately without any docs and software too ... ... it includes 4 ATT 3030 Chips, a MC68000, 4 MB Rams and some Zilog chips. There are connectors for floppy and scsi drives too. I would be very happy to get it up and running Ciao Bernd From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 13:39:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:39:43 -0500 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) Message-ID: <0IR800ECGX91IXW5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) > From: "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:03:42 +0000 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Robert Armstrong wrote: >>> The VS2k is a bare bones uVAX-II cpu and inst very fast but I never >>> thought the boot to be unusually slow unless the dianogstic >>> were running. >> >> RD5x drives are painfully slow, and this is especially a problem in >> the VS2000 because the integrated disk controller a) lacks DMA, and >> b) lacks the T11 chip to do local processing found in a RQDXn - the >> uVAX CPU has to do all the work. > >Wolfgang Moeller produced some patches way back when for the >uVAX/VS 2000 that would allow it to use a SCSI disk. > >Never actually tried it myself (as I had RD drives available >and faster machines if I just wanted speed). > >Antonio I have RD drives so I never tried it. I also now have RZ drives and it would be a good time to try it. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 9 12:22:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 18:22:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <20051208203832.38438cd4.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 8, 5 08:38:32 pm Message-ID: > > There are actually a number of ancient bulbs around the country > > that refuse to die. Pretty neat, anyway. > > > And I would bet that General Electric, Sylvania, and a few other > concerns have people who study these bulbs to make sure they don't > make any more like them. I was under the impression that the way to make a bulb last for a good long time is to under-run it -- to run it off a much lower voltage than designed. I bet if you took a modern (110V) bulb and powered it off, say, 90V, it would have a long life. Of course if you do this you get a lot less light per watt of electical input power. Photofloods (do you get those in the States?) are the reverse. Bulbs that are deliberately overrun to give a high light intensity (and higher colour temperature) than normal bulbs of the same power. The trade-off is a very short life -- a couple of hours for some of them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 9 12:28:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 18:28:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR700D8UMHMU83E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Dec 8, 5 09:49:30 pm Message-ID: > It was quite somethig to take an 8088, 8284(clock gen), 8205 (aka74138), > 8755, 8155 and have a complete 16bitter in 5 or so chips. However, the IIRC there was a Circuit Cellar article in Byte for a 5-chip machine using the 8088. The other chips were, IIRC, the clock generator, 8155 (RAM + I/O), 8355 (ROM + I/O) and an Intel RAM chip with multiplexed address/data buses. The address decoding was done by just connecting the chip enables to the high-order address lines... > 8089 IOP was a piece of cruft and one big pain to debug. Well, I've read the datasbook, I've seen it in use, but have never designed with it. What's the problem? It always struck me as a lot nicer than the 8237 + page registers that IBM used in the PC -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 14:08:39 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 12:08:39 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <003101c5fcf3$b0cb1980$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <003101c5fcf3$b0cb1980$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: At 7:06 PM +0000 12/9/05, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >I guess these days the average mainframe just does IP! These days even GCOS-8 has TCP/IP. I still remember fighting the communications problems we occasionally had between sites with going over serial connections... Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 9 14:23:30 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 15:23:30 -0500 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) References: <001c01c5fced$de39dd30$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <00a501c5fcfe$6c378dc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I remember my uVII (RD54 on QBus, no Windowing) taking about 9 minutes to boot, and about 15 seconds to do a HELP page. Still worth the wait, compared to PCDOS certainly. John A. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 9 14:40:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:40:25 -0700 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4399EBB9.8060007@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >Photofloods (do you get those in the States?) are the reverse. Bulbs that >are deliberately overrun to give a high light intensity (and higher >colour temperature) than normal bulbs of the same power. The trade-off is >a very short life -- a couple of hours for some of them. > > > I don't know I live in Canada. :) I suspect photofloods do that. Oddly I have found regular incandesant bulbs out that contain neodymium in the glass to filter out the yellows and give a higher color temp much like daylight. If you need real daylight the color temp is only one aspect of daylight. The other factor is how close the spectrum of light matches the daylight sun. For real daylight Company #1 claiming they have the best. http://www.fullspectrumsolutions.com/default.htm Company #2 with the same claim but with 12v lighting. http://www.solux.net/ I don't know how they compare with other products elsewhere in the world but they both look to have a product that looks to live up to the 'daylight' claim and you can afford. > -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 15:13:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:13:35 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR900DGQ1LIGZC1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:28:07 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> It was quite somethig to take an 8088, 8284(clock gen), 8205 (aka74138), >> 8755, 8155 and have a complete 16bitter in 5 or so chips. However, the > >IIRC there was a Circuit Cellar article in Byte for a 5-chip machine >using the 8088. The other chips were, IIRC, the clock generator, 8155 >(RAM + I/O), 8355 (ROM + I/O) and an Intel RAM chip with multiplexed >address/data buses. The address decoding was done by just connecting the >chip enables to the high-order address lines... Yes, that circuit is straight out of the intel appnote. >Well, I've read the datasbook, I've seen it in use, but have never >designed with it. What's the problem? It always struck me as a lot nicer >than the 8237 + page registers that IBM used in the PC think about it. It's a microprocessor with a flat 20bit address and nothing like the 8088. In some respects is nicer. I had to write a simple debugger for it using the host for the IO. Very ugly and hard to control. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 15:20:36 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:20:36 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 2:20 PM Allison wrote: >What I never figured out for sure was if the 8080 used current segment >or not. the differnce is the 8080 emulation would then be capable of >running as if there were N many (available ram/64k) differnt ram >areas making a banked 8080 possible. then again I never really looked at >that seriously enough to implement. Well, now that was the very interesting part of the V20 emulation. The segment for the code to be emulated was taken from CS as one might expect. However, DS specified the segment base for data accesses. So, in theory, you could have an 8080 program with 64K of code and 64K of data. The 8080 SP was loaded from BP. Interrupts autmatically switched back to X86 mode and then back to emulation when the RETI was executed. You were warned however, not to change modes in an ISR, because it would produce "unexpected results" (whatever they were; I never tried). The V20 and V30 had an emulation bug that would cause nasty things to happen if the stack pointer were too close to IP. JRT Pascal had a peculiar subroutine calling sequence that did just that, so JRT Pascal (that pile of stinking garbage) was probably one of the first apps that pointed out problems in emulation. NEC took the 8086 architecture into some interesting chips. The V53 had page-translation buffer that would allow 16M of addressing without having to go to the screwy 80286 segmented protection mode. And it was very fast. Now, the NEC Dataflow processor were pretty strange... Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 15:24:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 16:24:52 -0500 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) Message-ID: <0IR900GGT24AS5NG@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) > From: "John Allain" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:23:30 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I remember my uVII (RD54 on QBus, no Windowing) taking about 9 minutes >to boot, and about 15 seconds to do a HELP page. Still worth the wait, >compared to PCDOS certainly. > >John A. I bet if it had 6mb of ram it was alot. Also if "help" was that slow it's because to save disk space it wasn't unpacked, add to that a lot of paging and swaping and eek bad. My smaller ba23 uVAXII is only 8mb but, I gave up the tape for a second disk an RD31. The RD31 was the swap and page disk as they were fairly fast (16 heads not a lot of cylinders). That helped a lot and the tuning of the startup helped. Got a lot of the waiting out. The BA123 has SCSI with two RZ56 and MSCP for RD54 and 53 and that with 16mb of ram is noticeably faster, even with DECwindows running useing the local hardware it's not bad. One VMS trick I've found helps is put the page and swap on another spindle, it helps. Even a netbooted VS2000 with 20mb local for page and swap flies noteably better. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 15:35:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:35:42 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <0IR900DGQ1LIGZC1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR900DGQ1LIGZC1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512091335420755.09EA486B@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 4:13 PM Allison wrote: >think about it. It's a microprocessor with a flat 20bit address and >nothing >like the 8088. In some respects is nicer. I had to write a simple >debugger >for it using the host for the IO. Very ugly and hard to control. ...and only 2 channels of DMA, where the 8237 would give you 4. One thing that pretty much doomed it was the announcement of the 80286 with 16M addressing capabilities, which means the 8089 wouldn't cover the address space. The instruction set was basically increment, decrement, add, AND, OR, NOT and a couple of bit test and set/clear operations--along with the usual conditional jumps and a CALL, but no stack, no subtract and no shifts. Basically a program-it-yourself DMA controller. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Dec 9 16:33:30 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:33:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <43989034.3080100@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Sounds right. It's the right size machine. The only thing I don't know > is when the 9370 was withdrawn. Not soon enough? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 16:34:31 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 17:34:31 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> Frankly, I'm not sure how well this would end up working... Maybe I'm just bitter because the last "alter-net" I participated in (the C-64 Q-Link and BBS revival) never really got very strong. Still, the DEC community might be able to support a small network. You never know. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 9 17:19:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 18:19:30 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512091052210631.0954BAC7@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800BFXUFHC8K3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091052210631.0954BAC7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051209181930.5257e676.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:52:21 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/9/2005 at 1:38 PM Allison wrote: > > >The early NEC 8080 (round lid prior to 77ish) set the flags > >wrong I believe it was the sign flag though I'd have to check. > > After IMSAI > >and others dumped them for the big they redesigned to exactly > >match the Intel 8080A, NEC part was 8080AF. > > I thought it was interesting that although IMSAI wouldn't use > the NEC 8080A part on their CPU cards, they freely used it in > their floppy controller. Probably to use up old stock, who > knows? > Sure. If you're stuck with incompatible old stock, stick it an embedded application where it will run ONLY your own well-tested code. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Dec 9 17:23:49 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:23:49 +0100 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) In-Reply-To: <003001c5fcf3$4705ebb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001c01c5fced$de39dd30$0401010a@jfcl.com> <003001c5fcf3$4705ebb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <20051210002349.7fc6b331.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 19:03:42 -0000 "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" wrote: > Wolfgang Moeller produced some patches way back when for the > uVAX/VS 2000 that would allow it to use a SCSI disk. > > Never actually tried it myself I patched my VS2k that way. As I am a BSD person I never tried with VMS. NetBSD gets as far as loading the bootloader. It can't load the kernel as the bootloader lacks support for the VS2k SCSI port. I dim remember that a friend got further with VMS, but it is some years since we patched our ROMs and played with it. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 17:55:58 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:55:58 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/9/05 5:34 PM, "Madcrow Maxwell" wrote: > Frankly, I'm not sure how well this would end up working... Maybe I'm > just bitter because the last "alter-net" I participated in (the C-64 > Q-Link and BBS revival) never really got very strong. Still, the DEC > community might be able to support a small network. You never know. > Myself, I have an unreliable internet connection (It goes down every XX hours - somewhere in the double digits, I'm thinking it's about 16, never timed), but I finally found my copy of OpenVMS 7.3-1 for my DEC, and I'd be happy to participate in something like this.... Now I just need to figure out how to work the damn thing :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 9 18:42:19 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 16:42:19 -0800 Subject: Q-Link (Re: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:34 PM -0500 12/9/05, Madcrow Maxwell wrote: >Frankly, I'm not sure how well this would end up working... Maybe I'm >just bitter because the last "alter-net" I participated in (the C-64 >Q-Link and BBS revival) never really got very strong. Still, the DEC >community might be able to support a small network. You never know. Don't tell me that the Q-Link revival has died! I just pulled the hardware to access that at the same time I pulled three VAXen (though I'm only goign to use one for the Hobbyist DECnet). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 9 18:44:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:44:19 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The V20 and V30 had an emulation bug that would cause nasty things to Speaking of 808x CPU bugs, I remember a bit of controversy over altering the stack registers. You were supposed to be able to do this: MOV SS,AX MOV SS,DX ...to switch the stack to somewhere else, and the 8088 was supposed to disable interrupts after the MOV SS for the next instruction (MOV SP). However, I read somewhere that early versions of the 8088 didn't honor this (or at least didn't honor it all the time). The generally accepted workaround was something like: CLI MOV SS,AX MOV SS,DX STI What I'd like to know is: What revisions of the 8088 were susceptible to this? Here's another dumb question: When I open up one of my XTs, why does my 8088-1 have an AMD logo on it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 9 19:09:22 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:09:22 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439A2AC2.8050808@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > > Here's another dumb question: When I open up one of my XTs, why does > my 8088-1 have an AMD logo on it? That's an easy one ... IBM insisted on two sources for the 8088. AMD made an 8088 clone under license from Intel, and was the second supplier used by IBM. Unlike the V20, it was an exact duplicate. Mike www.brutman.com/PCjr From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 19:17:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:17:58 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512091717580499.0AB5C297@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 6:44 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >MOV SS,AX >MOV SP,DX > >...to switch the stack to somewhere else, and the 8088 was supposed to >disable >interrupts after the MOV SS for the next instruction (MOV SP). However, I >read >somewhere that early versions of the 8088 didn't honor this (or at least >didn't That's true. >What I'd like to know is: What revisions of the 8088 were susceptible to >this? I don't know--Intel got it fixed pretty quickly, though. But I never quit adding that STI before a stack segment load. >Here's another dumb question: When I open up one of my XTs, why does my >8088-1 >have an AMD logo on it? AMD has had a cross-licensing agreement with Intel since 1976. It gets renewed every few years; I think the current one is due to expire in 2011. In spite of the lawsuits that get tossed back and forth between the two, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 19:24:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:24:43 -0800 Subject: 3.25" diskettes Message-ID: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. He said "You must mean 3" diskettes." "No, I mean 3.25" soft-jacket Dysan microfloppies" says I. "Never heard of such a thing" replies he. So I sent him a photo of a diskette and a drive (I've got two drives and a box of diskettes). How rare are these things? Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 9 19:49:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:49:39 -0500 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software Message-ID: <0IR900DTXEDKU5QH@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:09:22 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Jim Leonard wrote: > >> >> Here's another dumb question: When I open up one of my XTs, why does >> my 8088-1 have an AMD logo on it? > >That's an easy one ... IBM insisted on two sources for the 8088. AMD >made an 8088 clone under license from Intel, and was the second supplier >used by IBM. Unlike the V20, it was an exact duplicate. > > >Mike >www.brutman.com/PCjr > By that time NEC had the 8088, AMD, And at least one European SGS maybe and a few I may have forgot. in 1981 The 8088 was already three years old! Allison From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 19:50:35 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:50:35 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> On 10/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and > I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. He said "You must > mean 3" diskettes." > > "No, I mean 3.25" soft-jacket Dysan microfloppies" says I. "Never heard of > such a thing" replies he. So I sent him a photo of a diskette and a drive > (I've got two drives and a box of diskettes). > > How rare are these things? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > I've never seen of these can you send me a picture ? Dan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 20:14:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:14:35 -0800 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 1:50 AM Dan Williams wrote: >I've never seen of these can you send me a picture ? > >Dan I've posted a photo at: http://www.sydex.com/photos/325.jpg Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 20:40:34 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:40:34 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439A4022.8090405@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>Sounds right. It's the right size machine. The only thing I don't know >>is when the 9370 was withdrawn. > > > Not soon enough? If the 9370 was withdrawn between 1990 and 1995, it would be too new, and if it was withdrawn between 1975 and 1980 (which I seriously doubt -- I think it's newer) than it's too old. It's very much possible that it's the right age. Peace... Sridhar From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Dec 9 21:16:14 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 21:16:14 -0600 Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software) In-Reply-To: <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> The V20 and V30 had an emulation bug that would cause nasty things to > > > Speaking of 808x CPU bugs, I remember a bit of controversy over altering > the stack registers. You were supposed to be able to do this: > > MOV SS,AX > MOV SS,DX > > ...to switch the stack to somewhere else, and the 8088 was supposed to > disable interrupts after the MOV SS for the next instruction (MOV SP). > However, I read somewhere that early versions of the 8088 didn't honor > this (or at least didn't honor it all the time). The generally accepted > workaround was something like: > > CLI > MOV SS,AX > MOV SS,DX > STI ... Of course you meant "SP" not "SS" in second of each of the MOV pairs above. I recall reading a book back in 1982 or so written by Stephen Morse, one of the architects on the 8086. The book was 8086 Primer, I think. Anyway, he explains the addressing modes and instructions and such, but along the way drops a few nuggets like the one you mentioned above. He also mentioned that the architects called the sign extend instruction SEX, but management wouldn't have it. Motorola apparently was less stodgy. After some digging, I have found the book (it isn't the same copy I read in 82; a few years ago I happened upon a copy for $1 and snagged it). On page 89 he says: An 8086 Mistake (... describes what Jim Leonard discusses ...) This mistake was not discovered until after the 8086 was designed and built. After the mistake was discovered, the 8086 was modified so that it will not accept any interrupts immediately after executing an instruction that moves a new value into SS. On page 94 there is a section called "A Postscript on Prefixes" where he describes some of the prefix byte quirks. After mentioning some, he says: "The combination of a prefix with a repeat prefix will make it impossible to restart the string operation after being interrupted. To understand why .... This is a flaw in the 8086 design! On page 54 he says: "The 8086 provides instructions (Fig. 3.29) to facilitate the task of sign extension. These instructions were initially named SEX (Sign EXtend) but were later renamed to the more conservative CBW (Convert Byte to Word) and CWD (Convert Word to Double word). ... On pages 97-98 he is discussing flags and DAA. He mentions that the only flag that really needs to be changed on a DAA is the carry flag, but to increase compatibility with 8080 code, they set all five flags like the 8080. DAS does as well. Then he says how boolean operations affect flags. Then "One Boolean instruction, NOT, is missing from the list of Boolean instructions that affect the flags. NOT does not afect the flags. This was the result of an oversight (I goofed!) when the processor was being defined." There might be some other tidbits in there, but I don't particularly want to read it to find them. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 9 21:20:23 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:20:23 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <43989B61.2050904@gmail.com> References: <43988878.8040906@gmail.com> <200512081505.51387.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43989B61.2050904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439A4977.2010704@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Oh. I almost forgot. You can also boot VM from tape and create a > virtual minidisk in storage. > > Peace... Sridhar > > I dont think even the starter system is very happy w/o some sort of dasd, and certainly not very useful. maybe you could illuminate where such a tape comes from and what is genned into it, etc? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 9 21:25:30 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 19:25:30 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD alternatives? In-Reply-To: <439A4022.8090405@gmail.com> References: <439A4022.8090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <439A4AAA.4080708@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: machines such as the 9221 could have had older dasd on them from being upgrades of 9370s. I checked with a friend who I worked with in the 86 to 90 timeframe, where we had a 9370-90, and it was upgraded to a 9221 to get XA and ESA architechure, to allow OS debug. We had a 4381-91 with ESA but required some of the features on the 9221 to fully test what customers had. The systems had 9335 as well as 9332 from earlier upgrades. We ran either VM or our own OS at the time, both on FBA. We used CKD, but preformatted it with fixed 4k sectors to essentially be an "FBA" type DASD, as we didnt do keying. for more on DASD, I found this site with lots of nice info: http://www.sdisw.com/vm/dasd_capacity.html Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 9 22:36:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:36:38 -0800 Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software) In-Reply-To: <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> On 12/9/2005 at 9:16 PM Jim Battle wrote: >On pages 97-98 he is discussing flags and DAA. He mentions that the only >flag that really needs to be changed on a DAA is the carry flag, but to >increase compatibility with 8080 code, they set all five flags like the 8080. Which brings us back to the original subject, doesn't it? Current fancy x86 still harks from the 8008 in that the old DAA is STILL there, although heaven knows who still uses it (or why. I know the 4004 also had a DAA, but I don't count it as the 8008 doesn't really descend from the 4004). Maybe it's time to say goodbye to DAA and the rest of the cruft. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 9 23:19:59 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:19:59 -0500 Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software) In-Reply-To: <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Which brings us back to the original subject, doesn't it? Current fancy > x86 still harks from the 8008 in that the old DAA is STILL there, although > heaven knows who still uses it (or why. I know the 4004 also had a DAA, > but I don't count it as the 8008 doesn't really descend from the 4004). This story told us, that CPU's have bugs. x86 bugs are known because x86's are widely used, and many are fixed. Your favorite CPU, 16032, 32016, z8000, 65816...... might have bugs that you don't know. That's why my favorite CPU is x86 (besides VAX) vax, 9000 From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Dec 10 00:11:01 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:11:01 -0500 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> Noooooo........! DAA has a very useful function. AND AL,00fh ADD AL,090h DAA ADC AL,040h DAA RET Now, what's it do? --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/9/2005 at 9:16 PM Jim Battle wrote: > > > >>On pages 97-98 he is discussing flags and DAA. He mentions that the only >>flag that really needs to be changed on a DAA is the carry flag, but to >>increase compatibility with 8080 code, they set all five flags like the >> >> >8080. > >Which brings us back to the original subject, doesn't it? Current fancy >x86 still harks from the 8008 in that the old DAA is STILL there, although >heaven knows who still uses it (or why. I know the 4004 also had a DAA, >but I don't count it as the 8008 doesn't really descend from the 4004). > >Maybe it's time to say goodbye to DAA and the rest of the cruft. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 10 00:25:55 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 06:25:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) Message-ID: <20051210062555.32266.qmail@web25006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Now, what's it do? Nibble to hex ASCII probably, similar code can be used on the 6502 and 680x0 processors as well. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 00:32:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:32:32 -0800 Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software) In-Reply-To: References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512092232320108.0BD5BD1F@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 12:19 AM 9000 VAX wrote: >This story told us, that CPU's have bugs. x86 bugs are known because >x86's are widely used, and many are fixed. Your favorite CPU, 16032, >32016, z8000, 65816...... might have bugs that you don't know. Hmmmm, do you think that OISC has bugs? http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/TOOL/OISC-1.html Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 10 00:44:18 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:44:18 -0600 Subject: 8086 bugs In-Reply-To: <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <439A7942.5010303@oldskool.org> Jim Battle wrote: > Of course you meant "SP" not "SS" in second of each of the MOV pairs above. Whoops. BTW, much thanks for the book excerpts! > the flags. This was the result of an oversight (I goofed!) when the > processor was being defined." Oh my! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 10 01:03:13 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:03:13 -0700 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> J.C. Wren wrote: > Noooooo........! DAA has a very useful function. > > AND AL,00fh > ADD AL,090h > DAA > ADC AL,040h > DAA > RET > > Now, what's it do? > --jc > It gets me confused before it returns. I think I've seen the same code in the 386 book I have. If it is the program segment I am thinking of that is a cute trick if it returns AL as a ascii character. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 01:28:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:28:14 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512092328140575.0C08BDA2@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 12:03 AM woodelf wrote: >It gets me confused before it returns. I think I've seen the same code >in the 386 book I have. >If it is the program segment I am thinking of that is a cute trick if >it returns AL as a ascii character. Didn't I just post that selfsame code yesterday, albeit in 8080? How about: and al,0fh xlate hextable hextable db '0123456789ABCDEF' Straightforward and fewer instructions. Not only that, you can use ANY character code (say, EBCDIC) for output. Or even: and al,0fh movzx ebx,al mov al,hextable[ebx] --Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 10 01:51:28 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:51:28 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> J.C. Wren wrote: > Noooooo........! DAA has a very useful function. > > AND AL,00fh > ADD AL,090h > DAA > ADC AL,040h > DAA > RET > > Now, what's it do? > --jc Chuck Guzis already posted that one yesterday towards the start of this (sub)thread: > It's still there--and is one of the reasons this little tibit still works > to convert a 4-bit binary value to ASCII hex: > > and al,15 > add al,90h > daa > adc al,40h > daa Miraculously I've been able to avoid learning the x86 instruction set, but that is probably 8 bytes (the same sequence would be on an 8080 or z80). But you can do z80 code like: add a,'0' cpi '9' + 1 jr n,foo add a,'a'-'0' foo: which is also 8 bytes. yeah, there is a branch in it, and it doesn't have the coolness associated with the tricky way, but it is clearer, probably runs at about the same speed. So you can't really justify DAA using this example. DAA was for doing BCD math; and that is the start and end of the justification. I know that the TI CC-40 and TI-74 calculators (and I'm sure there are others) used base 100 arithmetic -- two digits per byte like bcd, but in some ways more straightforward. When they normalized their mantissa there was two digit granularity. One thing a bit puzzling is rather than using the msb of one of the mantissa bytes to indicate the sign (since a byte holds on only 0-99, the msb is free), instead they indicate such by 1's complementing the first mantissa byte. I'm sure there is a reason why for their given instruction set this is superior (test msb and clear it before preforming mantissa operation would seem simpler than test msb and conditionally complement, but whatever). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 10 01:53:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:53:56 -0700 Subject: 8086 bugs In-Reply-To: <200512092232320108.0BD5BD1F@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <200512092232320108.0BD5BD1F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439A8994.3000001@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/10/2005 at 12:19 AM 9000 VAX wrote: > > > >>This story told us, that CPU's have bugs. x86 bugs are known because >>x86's are widely used, and many are fixed. Your favorite CPU, 16032, >>32016, z8000, 65816...... might have bugs that you don't know. >> >> > > >Hmmmm, do you think that OISC has bugs? > >http://www.idiom.com/free-compilers/TOOL/OISC-1.html > > > No, but I can't download it from there. ... Good retrocomputing has it ... Arg!!! unix only! >Cheers, >Chuck > > >. > > > From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 10 02:07:19 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:07:19 +0100 Subject: 3.25" diskettes References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Chuck Guzis" > I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and > I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. > > How rare are these things? > well, in my 20+ years in media conversion, I've never come across one. Nico From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 10 02:21:09 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 02:21:09 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <439A8FF5.3000802@pacbell.net> Jim Battle (hey, that's me!) wrote: > I know that the TI CC-40 and TI-74 calculators (and I'm sure there are > others) used base 100 arithmetic -- two digits per byte like bcd, but in > some ways more straightforward. When they normalized their mantissa > there was two digit granularity. False memory, I guess. I dug out the appropriate book and found that in fact they do use BCD representation internally. However it is still true that they normalized bytewise instead of nibblewise. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 10 04:14:45 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:14:45 +0000 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439AAA95.6000701@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > I had forgotton about the V20's. Still a good way to get a few more % of > speed. My memory may be clouded by university-grade levels of S&D&R&R but I distinctly remember selling a kit with a V20 and 8087 to XT-class PC owners in the shop I used to work in, *way* back in the early 90s. These machines were usable but getting pretty low-end, the CPUs were generally socketed (we'd^H^H^H^HI would - the other guy wouldn't do them 'cos of his eyesight - desolder soldered in ones and fit a socket and the kit, all for an hour of workshop time) and it really was "bolt-on power". Just the V20 alone made a noticable difference to some programs, and the 8087 made maths stuff a hell of a lot quicker. Gordon. From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 10 04:38:04 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 05:38:04 -0500 Subject: Cromemco software available Message-ID: <01C5FD4D.1FE90080@MSE_D03> I've got a few working Cromemcos and could check them out for ya, although Dave D is probably better qualified since he wrote ImageDisk. I've also got various Cromemco and third-party S/W packages for the Z80/68000/68010/68020 and Unix systems; will post a list one of these days. However, I've been archiving them as MS format ZIP files instead of disk images; that way it doesn't matter whether you've got 5" or 8" disks (also, I only had some of them on hard disks). Mind you, you would need a way to copy them back from MS to CDOS/Cromix/Unix format and of course you'd still need a boot disk for each O/S. If that's an IMI 7700 series drive (or two), a couple of tips: a lot of them had problems with the power connectors oxidizing so check those carefully (unless they've been replaced). Also, the older models had locking screws, so check that as well before you spin it up. Is it internal or external, BTW? And are those diskettes really single-sided? Z-2Ds generally had 2 DSDD TM100s and could read & write all four formats. Good luck! mike -----------------Original Message------------------ From: Doc Shipley Subject: Cromemco software available To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4397CA23.6000503 at mdrconsult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Does anybody have a working Cromemco with 5.25" SSSD floppy drive[s]? I finally made it out to pick up my Z-2D, and it came with a lot of floppy diskettes. As it's going to be awhile before I bring up the Z-2D to boot - it hasn't been powered up in many years, so I'll be cleaning and then powering it up in stages - I thought I'd go ahead and image the diskettes. I've spot-checked a couple with 22Disk and they seem to have valid data, so I'm going to try my hand at Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk. I'd like for someone with a working system to try the images and see if they're bootable. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 06:06:59 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:06:59 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> On 10/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2005 at 1:50 AM Dan Williams wrote: > > >I've never seen of these can you send me a picture ? > > > >Dan > > I've posted a photo at: > > http://www.sydex.com/photos/325.jpg > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > Nice, what machine did it originally come from. Dan From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 07:00:20 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 13:00:20 +0000 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <0IR800D86ELFRWF1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR800D86ELFRWF1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/05, Allison wrote: > There's a story of a VAX at DEFCON that was subjected to the hordes > and stood well. VMS has good security out of the box, always did. > It can be made very tight without much effort and it's also so different > from PCs (Hardend OS and protection in hardware) so security by obscurity > doesn't hurt. Though repeatedly mistaken by the hordes for a VAX, it was in fact an Alpha. http://wiz.openvms.org/pages.php?page=DefCon9 From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Dec 10 08:00:54 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:00:54 -0500 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512092328140575.0C08BDA2@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512092328140575.0C08BDA2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439ADF96.5030206@jcwren.com> I thought I saw all the postings in this thread, but I missed where you posted that, Chuck. Sorry. The advantage of the method, and yours below, is that they're deterministic. Another is that it's position independent. Now, admittedly, in 25+ years of writing software, I've only had one occasion where I needed it to be deterministic, and it was on a 8051 (same method works on any processor with DAA). I've never had to worry about it having to be PIC. I like using the DAA method for testing job candidates. It's not a pass/fail sort of thing, but if they can get reasonably close to figuring out what it's doing, they've earned points. I usually throw in some other little questions like "What is Duffs Device" and a few others, just to see how in-depth they are (I've never seen Duffs used in real-world code, but it's useful trick to be aware of, and indicates a good understanding of the way C can be twisted). --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/10/2005 at 12:03 AM woodelf wrote: > > > >>It gets me confused before it returns. I think I've seen the same code >>in the 386 book I have. >>If it is the program segment I am thinking of that is a cute trick if >>it returns AL as a ascii character. >> >> > >Didn't I just post that selfsame code yesterday, albeit in 8080? > >How about: > > and al,0fh > xlate hextable > >hextable db '0123456789ABCDEF' > >Straightforward and fewer instructions. Not only that, you can use ANY >character code (say, EBCDIC) for output. > >Or even: > > and al,0fh > movzx ebx,al > mov al,hextable[ebx] > >--Chuck > > > > > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 10 03:58:38 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:58:38 +0000 Subject: Cromemco software available In-Reply-To: <01C5FD4D.1FE90080@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20051210140456.ZELH9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I've got a few working Cromemcos and could check them out for ya, although > Dave D is probably better qualified since he wrote ImageDisk. Doc sent me a few test images, and I was able to make disks with ImageDisk and boot them on the Cromemco no problem, so it looks like we are a go. > I've also got various Cromemco and third-party S/W packages for the > Z80/68000/68010/68020 and Unix systems; will post a list one of these days. > > However, I've been archiving them as MS format ZIP files instead of disk images; > that way it doesn't matter whether you've got 5" or 8" disks (also, I only had some > of them on hard disks). Mind you, you would need a way to copy them back from > MS to CDOS/Cromix/Unix format and of course you'd still need a boot disk > for each O/S. It would be nice to get this material archived, however it will be tough for most people to make use of it. Would it be feasable to make up boot disks with the utilities necessary to peform serial transfers, and provide ImageDisk images of these which could be used to download the remaining software from the PC into the target system? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 10 10:35:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:35:15 -0500 Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected Message-ID: <0IRA00EPRJD9IX19@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Hey Jay, Whats this?? I cannot corrolate it to any thing I may have sent ow was awake to send. Allison > >Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:16:35 -0600 > To: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net > >Your request to the cctech mailing list > > Posting of your message titled "Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X >was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software" > >has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the >following reason for rejecting your request: > >"Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list." > >Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator >at: > > cctech-owner at classiccmp.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 11:04:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:04:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> > > I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and > > I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. > > > How rare are these things? On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: > well, in my 20+ years in media conversion, I've never come across one. We've discussed 3.25" before. The Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine that I ever saw that came with one. (in my 25+ years of media conversion :-) But there were a lot added to other machines, including PC, by software publishers in preparation for something that never came together. On 9/24/2005 at 9:52 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the > "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed > would be the one with software availability. and they didn't want to do complete retooling > So, they overextended > themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company > providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25". > 'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with > the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8". I have a drive, and used to have some extra Micropro diskettes (including alignment disks!) that I gave away. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 11:25:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 09:25:23 -0800 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512100925230684.0E2B7317@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 12:06 PM Dan Williams wrote: >Nice, what machine did it originally come from. I have no idea; the drives and disks were sent to me by the fellow in charge of cleaning house over at Dysan. I'd requested some 6.4MB Drivetec 5.25" floppies (I have a drive), but he didn't have any extras, so he sent me the drives and a box of disks as a consolation prize. So they've probably never been used. The drives have no manufacturers mark, but I've seen similar drives labeled "Shugart Venture". Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 12:03:35 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:03:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> > > AND AL,00fh > > ADD AL,090h > > DAA > > ADC AL,040h > > DAA > > RET or: AND AL, 0Fh DAA ADD AL, 0F0h ADC AL, 40h or: AND AL, 0Fh ADD AL, 0 ADC AL,28h DAA and, of course, it can be extended to 16 bits with screen display by: MOV CX, 0404h ; CH and CL are independent N1: ROL AX, CL PUSH AX AND AL, 0Fh DAA ADD AL, 0F0h ADC AL, 40h MOV AH, 0Eh ;displays char in AL at cursor position INT 10h POP AX DEC CH JNZ N1 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 13:02:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:02:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A7DB1.6000608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051210110105.X65059@shell.lmi.net> > > AND AL,00fh > > ADD AL,090h > > DAA > > ADC AL,040h > > DAA > > RET On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, woodelf wrote: > It gets me confused before it returns. I think I've seen the same code > in the 386 book I have. > If it is the program segment I am thinking of that is a cute trick if > it returns AL as a ascii character. The first time that I saw that sequence, it was in some commented source code. The comment read: ; I have no idea why this works! From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Dec 10 13:18:08 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> My CP/M machine is in storage at the moment, but I have the vague recollection that the single DAA version doesn't work on the 8080, or possibly the Z80. I know I first used this code on one of those two, and I spent some time playing around with it. Does this sound familiar to you? --jc Fred Cisin wrote: >>> AND AL,00fh >>> ADD AL,090h >>> DAA >>> ADC AL,040h >>> DAA >>> RET >>> >>> >or: > >AND AL, 0Fh >DAA >ADD AL, 0F0h >ADC AL, 40h > >or: > >AND AL, 0Fh >ADD AL, 0 >ADC AL,28h >DAA > > >and, of course, it can be extended to 16 bits with screen display by: > > MOV CX, 0404h ; CH and CL are independent >N1: ROL AX, CL > PUSH AX > AND AL, 0Fh > > DAA > ADD AL, 0F0h > ADC AL, 40h > > MOV AH, 0Eh ;displays char in AL at cursor position > INT 10h > > POP AX > DEC CH > JNZ N1 > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 13:37:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 11:37:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20051210113644.H65059@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, J.C. Wren wrote: > My CP/M machine is in storage at the moment, but I have the vague > recollection that the single DAA version doesn't work on the 8080, or > possibly the Z80. I know I first used this code on one of those two, > and I spent some time playing around with it. Does this sound familiar > to you? Sorry, don't remember. These all work with 80x86 > Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>> AND AL,00fh > >>> ADD AL,090h > >>> DAA > >>> ADC AL,040h > >>> DAA > >>> RET > >>> > >>> > >or: > > > >AND AL, 0Fh > >DAA > >ADD AL, 0F0h > >ADC AL, 40h > > > >or: > > > >AND AL, 0Fh > >ADD AL, 0 > >ADC AL,28h > >DAA > > > > > >and, of course, it can be extended to 16 bits with screen display by: > > > > MOV CX, 0404h ; CH and CL are independent > >N1: ROL AX, CL > > PUSH AX > > AND AL, 0Fh > > > > DAA > > ADD AL, 0F0h > > ADC AL, 40h > > > > MOV AH, 0Eh ;displays char in AL at cursor position > > INT 10h > > > > POP AX > > DEC CH > > JNZ N1 > > > > > >-- > >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Dec 10 14:50:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:50:27 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> References: <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051210145027.43c77f22@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:04 AM 12/10/05 -0800, you wrote: >> > I was chatting with someone else who prides himself on computer arcana and >> > I mentioned that I had some 3.25" diskettes and drives. > >> > How rare are these things? >On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Nico de Jong wrote: >> well, in my 20+ years in media conversion, I've never come across one. > > >The Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine that I ever saw that came >with one. (in my 25+ years of media conversion :-) I once took apart a Loral 1553 bus-analyzer that had 3 or 3.25 inch drives. I gave the drives and disks to Don Maslin. IIRC the disks were made by Dysan. I don't remember who make the drives but it was one of the common manufacturers. >We've discussed 3.25" before. Yes, you should be able to find a lot of information in the archives. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 14:03:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051210145027.43c77f22@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <3.0.6.16.20051210145027.43c77f22@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051210120126.V73210@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Joe R. wrote: > I once took apart a Loral 1553 bus-analyzer that had 3 or 3.25 inch > drives. I gave the drives and disks to Don Maslin. IIRC the disks were made > by Dysan. I don't remember who make the drives but it was one of the common > manufacturers. I gave 2 3.25" disks to Don Maslin (one alignment, and one with Micropro internal stuff) The difference between 3, 3.25, 3.5 is pretty obvious. 3.25 is the only "soft-shell" > > >We've discussed 3.25" before. > > Yes, you should be able to find a lot of information in the archives. > > Joe > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 14:09:11 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:09:11 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> To be position-independent or deterministic, you don't need DAA to do the conversion. The following suffices, and I'm sure that I could do much better with a little head scratching: and al,15 sub al,0a mov ah,al not ah shr ah,5 (if on 8088, you can substitute 5 shr ah,1) add ah,3a add al.ah Code-cruncher quiz: Could this be done in 8088 code without DAA or a jump or a reference to a table in memory using only a single 8-bit register? Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Dec 10 14:11:35 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 15:11:35 -0500 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20051210145027.43c77f22@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > I once took apart a Loral 1553 bus-analyzer that had 3 or 3.25 inch >drives. I can't speak for 3.25, but Amdek made (or at least packaged) 3" floppy drives/disks for at the very least the Tandy Color Computer. If I'm not mistaken (which entirely could be) they were 'electrically compatible' with standard (read: IBMish) 5.25" drives. Also IIRC (tho this very well could be wrong) Tony at least once mentioned they were available for a UK machine... Beeb? Acorn? I *think* Acorn, but don't quote me on that. What I've always wanted to do (and I have the drives, but not the time to do it) was graft one of the 2" floppy drives that came on the Zenith MiniSport onto one of my CoCos - internally. I always thought that would be neat... Course, now that CF is cheap & plentiful & there's CoCo IDE interfaces with CF slots right on 'em, it wouldn't be very difficult to hack up a "big-storage" internal solution on a CoCo nowadays. But 10 years ago, the 2" 720K floppy seemed to be "the way to go." ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 10 14:50:40 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:50:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051210124850.W75278@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Dec 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I can't speak for 3.25, but Amdek made (or at least packaged) 3" floppy > drives/disks for at the very least the Tandy Color Computer. If I'm not > mistaken (which entirely could be) they were 'electrically compatible' with > standard (read: IBMish) 5.25" drives. Amdek also sold a 3" drive for Apple][! If it connector to the stock Apple disk controller card, then that one was NOT "electrically compatible". > Also IIRC (tho this very well could > be wrong) Tony at least once mentioned they were available for a UK > machine... Beeb? Acorn? I *think* Acorn, but don't quote me on that. Amstrad From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 10 14:52:15 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 20:52:15 -0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1343.192.168.0.2.1134247935.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 10, 2005 8:11 pm, Roger Merchberger said: > > I can't speak for 3.25, but Amdek made (or at least packaged) 3" floppy > drives/disks for at the very least the Tandy Color Computer. If I'm not > mistaken (which entirely could be) they were 'electrically compatible' > with > standard (read: IBMish) 5.25" drives. Also IIRC (tho this very well could > be wrong) Tony at least once mentioned they were available for a UK > machine... Beeb? Acorn? I *think* Acorn, but don't quote me on that. Add me to the 'I've not seen a 3.25 either but I've read about them' list. As for 3", they were used in the UK by the budget home computer brands - Sinclair, Amstrad, Tatung, Oric (Tangerine) etc. It was a while before the brands that were still left started using 3.5"....1986 or thereabouts IIRC. Sinclair themselves, ie led by Clive Sinclair, never made or packaged any sort of floppy drive but once Amstrad bought the rights in '86 they released machines like the Spectrum +3, and under their own brand the CPC664, CPC6128,CPC6128+ and the venerable PCW series of word processors that revolutionised home word processing. Tatung built 3" drives into the Einstein and Tangerine put 3" drives out in france with the Oric Stratos, not many of those got to the UK. Enterprise had planned 3" drives for the 64 and 128 but ended up producing a Shugart interface for 5.25 drives before going bust. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Thu Dec 8 12:30:39 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 13:30:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Toast, of course. Before Nero existed, I used a Mac IIci and Toast >>for all my CD burning needs. > Which version of Toast? Under which version of Mac OS? You made me go to the basement to verify... Let's see: Toast 3.5.7, Jam 2.5, MacOS 7.6.1 on the IIci, and MacOS 8.6 on an 8100. carlos. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Dec 8 18:19:42 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:19:42 -0500 Subject: sad to report... In-Reply-To: <4398C434.3020205@mindspring.com> References: <4398C434.3020205@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051208191434.033f27e8@boff-net.dhs.org> Yes all, very understandable. The problem lies in the following facts: The scrapper in question is known to resell the used common PC's at local computer fairs under a different company name. The majority of the equipment was quietly carted into moving trucks to go to the scrapper early this morning before I found out about it. My employer will not budge on it- no negotiating. I do pay attention to my job, very much so. Higher ups and co-workers are noticing an increase in our department efficiency since I signed on. Internal scams are not really happen-place with my company. They have a LOT of internal safeguards and security and manned cameras, 24/7. You must document the crap out of things often and only then, you get limited use/access to it. Exceed that, multiple security guys pay you a visit with a file box and a request for your badge while they baby sit you to the door. -John Boffemmyer IV At 06:39 PM 12/8/2005, you wrote: >When I worked for DEC back in the late 70s / early 80s, they had a >wonderful scrap / salvage center in the Mill complex (basement of >building 5 IIRC) that sold off 'scrapped' DEC parts to employees >that would have otherwise gone to the smelter. Just about anything >DEC made could show up there (albeit in pieces, not whole systems). > >I seem to remember that DEC mgmt finally shut it down when they >discovered that some employees were internally buying new DEC >equipment, dismantling it and sending the pieces to 'scrap', where >they would then go buy them for 'personal' use at a deep discount (I >think the person running the salvage operation would put this good >stuff aside when it arrived, for a small fee, of course). > >I don't think it ever reopened after this fiasco. > >William Donzelli wrote: > >>>my company that i work for has just decommissioned an hp9000 >>>system for scrap and 11 dec vt420's circa 1991, unopened, with >>>keyboards. they did not give option on taking them or buying them =/ >>>don't you hate it when the bean counters get involved because they >>>think the scrappers will not be jerks and resell what they get >>>instead of doing their jobs and just scrapping it and keeping it >>>from the employees for personal use? >>> >> >>The problem tends to be the employees reselling the surplus. And after >>that, little underground networks within the company form up to make sure >>that certain items are decommissioned and go to certain employees. You can >>see where this is going. >> >>Yes, it sucks, and some bad eggs in your company probably spoiled it for >>everyone. >> >>Also, it seems to me that every so often someone comes up with new >>VT420s, anyway... >> >>William Donzelli >>aw288 at osfn.org >> >> >> -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/195 - Release Date: 12/8/2005 From johnny.billquist at softjar.se Fri Dec 9 03:53:15 2005 From: johnny.billquist at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:53:15 +0100 Subject: HECnet In-Reply-To: <200512090152.jB91prmM041793@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512090152.jB91prmM041793@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4399540B.3050106@softjar.se> "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really > good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" > or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that aren't > mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, > non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. And it's fun to interconnect different OSes and architectures. Since this question now has popped up, I thought I'd go through a few points of interest for those who want to know or join. First of all, yes, HECnet exists, works and have done so for a couple of years. But the interest have been very limited. I don't know why. Maybe because I don't frequent the right group of people. Same reason people tend to forget the ftp archive I have of PDP-11 software, which (in my eyes) is the better place to find atleast RSX stuff. :-) To begin with: HECnet is DECnet Phase IV, and nothing else. Anyway. HECnet started out as point-to-point connections using asynch serial DDCMP. This was because it was the easiest and most obvious way to solve this. Tunneling normal serial interface traffic is very easy. It was, however, limited by both by which OSes actually supported this (RSX and VMS afaik), the fact that you needed physical asynch interface on the machine, and the fact that this limited the network speed to 9600 bps. The next step was to tunnel ethernet instead. I wrote a small program running under Unix which does exactly that. It uses the berkley packet filter to get packets, and to send them as well. This means that an independent machine on the same ethernet segment is needed to do the tunneling. At the time I was doing this, I couldn't find any ready solution for this. I did look at GRE, but figured it cannot be used, since it requires the OS to atleast understand the packet in order to figure out that it should go on the GRE tunnel. DECnet is not understood by most Unix versions. Now, if I'm wrong, I'm all ears to implementing it. There also sometimes exist a bridge interface, which might be useful, but once again I haven't exactly been sure, so I've skipped it for now. My current bridge program have some flaws that are related to DECnet. First of all it don't learn where different MAC addresses are, to limit transmits. Second, you can decide which machines packets that are sent out on a bridge, but since it appears as one single ethernet segment, things can get wrong when one machine in one area wants to talk with a machine in another area, and wants to use the other areas router directly (since they have contact). This means that if you run an area router, you actually need to allow all machines to send traffic to anywhere. Some of these things are easy to improve, and I should probably address them. But since interest have been so low, the need hasn't exactly been acute. But maybe if this picks up. If you want to join HECnet, there are a few things we need to fix. First of all, we need the connection established. My machines are sitting at a site where I have very large bw, and no problems running 24/7. I have an area router, and another machine that acts as the bridge. So what you need is a machine to act as your endpoint of that bridge. It can either be a Unix machine, or something else, if we just get the connection going to some other host on HECnet. The requirements for my bridge software is really a machine that can send ethernet packets with anything as the source mac address, since that need to be faked. Most modern PCs can fake that, but I don't think SUN machines can. If you'd prefer to run something else than Unix, I'd be happy to help porting my bridge program. If you have a machine that actually can route DECnet over IP, it's in a way a better solution, but I can't deal with it right now. We'll have to start working on it. Let me know and we can talk. Second, since DECnet have addresses as well, this address database needs to be organized and allocated. For HECnet, I need to administer this. What I do is either allocate an area for someone who wants it, and then that area can be managed locally, or I can assign addresses from area 1, which I use myself. At the moment, only areas 1 and 11 have been spoken for. The node namespace in DECnet is flat, and while it's also local to every machine, it's nice to try to keep it uniform, so I prefer to keep track of node names, and have a master list locally, which people can copy from when they want to. That also means you should register wanted node names. The area router for area 1 is an RSX-11M-PLUS machine. There are actually several area routers on area 1. MAGICA:: is a real PDP-11/70 running RSX-11M-PLUS. MIM:: is an emulated PDP-11, running RSX-11M-PLUS. ERNIE:: is a real PDP-11/84 running RSX-11M-PLUS. PONDUS:: is a real PDP-11/83 running RSX-11M-PLUS. ERNIE and PONDUS are at my home, and since my ISP left me stranded I don't have any permanent connection to my home right now, so they are mostly offline. MAGICA is normally not on at the moment, because of budget problems. This leaves MIM. MIM is normally online and running. I have been experimenting (together with John Wilson, the author of E11) with MIM lately in some interesting new features, which unfortunately have left MIM without a working ethernet at times. However, if we're serious about this, I can always keep MIM running a bit more safe. There are about 20 machines in area 1, and about the same number in area 11, which is managed by Saku Setala in Finland. The machine running the bridge is normally always on as well, so even with MIM out of the loop, everything should work fine. If you have any questions, just write me. If you want to join, write me as well. We'll start by figuring out how to hook you up, and we'll also allocate nodes, or an area for you. Johnny > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? > > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few > email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > > At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is > having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? > > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the > Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for > point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and even > DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right > now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license > program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits > using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to > set up and administer. > > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and I > can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV > routing node. > > Bob Armstrong > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:43:29 GMT > From: Pete Turnbull > Subject: Re: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win > Software > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > Message-ID: <10512082343.ZM22810 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Dec 8 2005, 16:26, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Allison wrote: >> >>>You lived a shelterd life. >> >>I lived a young life. I first became of programming age in late > > 1970s so my > >>first CPUs were 6502, Z80, 68000, and 808x. > > > Whether it's called a Half Carry or an Auxiliary Carry seems to depend > somewhat on whose data book you read. I've seen both used for the Z80 > for example, indifferent manuals. > > ...in a 6800, it's called the Auxiliary Carry; in a 6809 it's called a > Half Carry. It's bit 5 of the status register in both. > > ...in a Z80 and 8086 it's called the Auxiliary Carry; it's bit 4 in the > Flags register in these and 8080/8085. > > ...it's bit 5 in 8048 and 8051 series micrcontrollers. > > There's no (visible) equivalent in a 6502 because of the way its > special Decimal Mode for BCD arithmetic works. Ditto for a 68000. > There isn't one in an ARM either. > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co Fri Dec 9 14:47:08 2005 From: cmurillo at autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:47:08 -0500 Subject: VS2000 speed (was RE: A Hobbyist DECnet Network) In-Reply-To: <003001c5fcf3$4705ebb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <003001c5fcf3$4705ebb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <4399ED4C.8020308@autonoma.edu.co> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > > Wolfgang Moeller produced some patches way back when for the > uVAX/VS 2000 that would allow it to use a SCSI disk. ...and boot from it, too, if you patch the PROMs to look for the driver at boot time. I did and can boot from a 3.5" SCSI disk that I put inside the vs2000. Be aware, though, that the complete fix includes patching the PROMs, copying the pk2kdrvr to the disk and finally patching some programs so that they work correctly with the package; these include configure, dump, staconfig, standconf, sysgen; the patches exist for 5.5-2, 6.1, 6.2, 7.1 and 7.2 only. The patches are needed to limit the data transfer size to 16kb, the max supported by the driver. Carlos. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Dec 10 06:20:26 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 07:20:26 -0500 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051210071920.03015240@boff-net.dhs.org> Isn't that from the same jerk who has recently made incredibly expensive vacuums that 'never fail to suck' (Dysan)??? -Grin. -John Boffemmyer IV At 07:06 AM 12/10/2005, you wrote: >On 10/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/10/2005 at 1:50 AM Dan Williams wrote: > > > > >I've never seen of these can you send me a picture ? > > > > > >Dan > > > > I've posted a photo at: > > > > http://www.sydex.com/photos/325.jpg > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > >Nice, what machine did it originally come from. > >Dan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 10 15:24:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:24:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 10, 5 03:11:35 pm Message-ID: > I can't speak for 3.25, but Amdek made (or at least packaged) 3" floppy > drives/disks for at the very least the Tandy Color Computer. If I'm not > mistaken (which entirely could be) they were 'electrically compatible' with > standard (read: IBMish) 5.25" drives. Also IIRC (tho this very well could > be wrong) Tony at least once mentioned they were available for a UK > machine... Beeb? Acorn? I *think* Acorn, but don't quote me on that. There certainly were 3" drives that were electrcially compatible with 5.25" ones. I have a couple of Hitachi drives that I use on a CoCo. They were not sold _for_ the CoCo in the UK, just spare drives that I plugged in. 3" drives were common on Amstrad 8 bit machines in the UK (CPC664, CPC6128, PCW8256, Spectrum +3 etc). IIRC, the PSW drives at least had a 26 pin interface connector, not the 34 pin one used on 5.25" drives, but the signals were the same, just on different pins. Another UK machine to come with 3" drives as standard was the Tatung Einstein. A Z80-based machine that ran something called Xtaldos (a sort-of CP/M clone). There was single 3" drive as standard, a second one could be fitted internally, and 2 more added on an external connector. These drives certainly had 34 pin connectors, same pinout as 5.25" ones The Oric disk drive was also a 3" unit. And yes, I've seen 3" drives sold for the BBC Micro (which was an Acorn machine). Not an offical Acorn product, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 10 15:26:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:26:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & In-Reply-To: <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Dec 9, 5 09:16:14 pm Message-ID: > nuggets like the one you mentioned above. He also mentioned that the > architects > called the sign extend instruction SEX, but management wouldn't have it. > Motorola apparently was less stodgy. I've heard a similar story about DEC -- the engineers wanted to call the sign extend instruction on the PDP11 SEX, the management objected and insisted it was called SXT The engineers got their own back when the VAX was released. The register that holds the address used in a transfer on the Unibus that times out is called the Failed UniBus Address Register (FUBAR). And that one did get into manuals, printests, etc. -tony From VAXDECman at aol.com Fri Dec 9 10:19:24 2005 From: VAXDECman at aol.com (VAXDECman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 11:19:24 EST Subject: PDP 11/73 is ALIVE! Message-ID: <232.348fbc7.30cb088c@aol.com> Hi, I saw this posting on the web. Thought you might have a version of RSX11M+. I'm trying to get a KDJ11-SD modified so I can run RSX on it. Thanks, Greg Miller Plymouth, MI From tolik_trek at mail.ru Thu Dec 8 23:16:28 2005 From: tolik_trek at mail.ru (Tolik) Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:16:28 +1000 Subject: Z-Star 433VL Message-ID: Hello! I am from Russia. I have Z - Star 433 VL too... Without adapter. Have you found something about this adapter? I want to make it from another adapter, but i don`t know anything about it power plug. Do you know something about? Thanks, good bye! From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Sat Dec 10 15:52:26 2005 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:52:26 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/73 is ALIVE! In-Reply-To: <232.348fbc7.30cb088c@aol.com> References: <232.348fbc7.30cb088c@aol.com> Message-ID: <91E8B0FA-0172-40A7-9DEA-24E2274E1924@xlisper.mv.com> Sorry. I'm afraid I'm an RT-11 user (at the moment anyway). On Dec 9, 2005, at 11:19 AM, VAXDECman at aol.com wrote: > Hi, > I saw this posting on the web. Thought you might have a > version of > RSX11M+. I'm trying to get a KDJ11-SD modified so I can run RSX > on it. > > Thanks, > Greg Miller > Plymouth, MI From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Dec 10 16:21:39 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:21:39 -0800 Subject: 8086 bugs (was: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & References: Message-ID: <000e01c5fdd8$17c1fe80$6401a8c0@hal9000> RCA's CDP1802 had " SEX " ... SEt X register ... regards, Steven C. > > nuggets like the one you mentioned above. He also mentioned that the > > architects > > called the sign extend instruction SEX, but management wouldn't have it. > > Motorola apparently was less stodgy. > > I've heard a similar story about DEC -- the engineers wanted to call the > sign extend instruction on the PDP11 SEX, the management objected and > insisted it was called SXT > > The engineers got their own back when the VAX was released. The register > that holds the address used in a transfer on the Unibus that times out is > called the Failed UniBus Address Register (FUBAR). And that one did get > into manuals, printests, etc. > > -tony > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 16:22:58 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:22:58 +1100 Subject: 3.25" diskettes References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net><002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans><200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252><002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <00cb01c5fdd8$4823dbc0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 7:11 AM Subject: Re: 3.25" diskettes > I can't speak for 3.25, but Amdek made (or at least packaged) 3" floppy > drives/disks for at the very least the Tandy Color Computer. If I'm not > mistaken (which entirely could be) they were 'electrically compatible' > with standard (read: IBMish) 5.25" drives. Also IIRC (tho this very well > could be wrong) Tony at least once mentioned they were available for a UK > machine... Beeb? Acorn? I *think* Acorn, but don't quote me on that. Amstrad CPC's used 3" diskettes (180kb capacity). cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 10 17:11:36 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:11:36 -0500 Subject: Cromemco software available Message-ID: <01C5FDB6.190BB500@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message------------------- From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: Cromemco software available > I've also got various Cromemco and third-party S/W packages for the > Z80/68000/68010/68020 and Unix systems; will post a list one of these days. > > However, I've been archiving them as MS format ZIP files instead of disk images; > that way it doesn't matter whether you've got 5" or 8" disks (also, I only had some > of them on hard disks). Mind you, you would need a way to copy them back from > MS to CDOS/Cromix/Unix format and of course you'd still need a boot disk > for each O/S. It would be nice to get this material archived, however it will be tough for most people to make use of it. Would it be feasable to make up boot disks with the utilities necessary to peform serial transfers, and provide ImageDisk images of these which could be used to download the remaining software from the PC into the target system? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html -------------------Reply---------------- That's what I had in mind when I started to archive this stuff way back when, at least for the OSs: one or more bootable disk images in both sizes and a ZIP file of either a TAR file of the rest or individual files, depending on whether links and attributes are required. The problem I saw with just imaging is the 5" and 8" disks; for example, how would someone install your 8" image of Cromix on his/her System One? Also, I couldn't be bothered to install an 8" drive on the PC. Finally, at least some of this stuff might also run on non-Cromemco systems so it might be useful to have it in a form that is readable on the (more or less) universal PC. I was really just interested in archiving the stuff and not too concerned with storing it in a directly installable form. This works for me, but I realize it's not ideal. Is there a better way of archiving this stuff? Suppose you had a copy of Cromix+ on 8" disks, one bootable and three others in FTAR format; how would you archive that in a way so that someone with a System One and no 8" drive could install it, keeping the links and attributes intact? Or you find an interesting package installed on your System 3 HD ( If/when you get it working :); how do you archive that, again, keeping links & attributes intact? I'm using Cromix+ to copy & transfer stuff; it would indeed be useful to have a comm program configured for a Cromemco running CDOS or Z80 Cromix that can do xmodem or kermit; Since you'll shortly be getting copies of most of this stuff anyway, I'll gladly leave it in your hands :) mike From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Dec 10 17:19:06 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:19:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RT In-Reply-To: <43850675.5080704@theriver.com> References: <43850675.5080704@theriver.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > I just rescued a complete IBM RT PC. It includes all the documentation. AIX > 2.x software, extra keyboards, extra cards, extra HDD;s and extra tape drives. > It also has an extra ESDI hard drive labeled Reno 4.3. > > Was there a port of 4.x BSD to the ROMP processor? I thought that it was tried > but not completed. Absolutely. > There is also a backup tape labeled AOS? That stands for Academic Operating System, aka 4.3BSD Looks like you have it both installed on a drive and sitting on the tape. There is also a port of 4.4BSD floating around which is far less complete and somewhat unstable. Steve From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 10 18:11:53 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:11:53 -0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051210071920.03015240@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512091750y33f37ef4h@mail.gmail.com> <200512091814350373.0AE997A2@10.0.0.252> <26c11a640512100406s49bedd93g@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20051210071920.03015240@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <1817.192.168.0.2.1134259913.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 10, 2005 12:20 pm, John Boffemmyer IV said: > Isn't that from the same jerk who has recently made incredibly > expensive vacuums that 'never fail to suck' (Dysan)??? -Grin. > -John Boffemmyer IV Recently? Jerk? Expensive? 'K. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 18:16:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:16:02 -0800 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <00cb01c5fdd8$4823dbc0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> <00cb01c5fdd8$4823dbc0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <200512101616020629.0FA3688E@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 9:22 AM Lance Lyon wrote: >Amstrad CPC's used 3" diskettes (180kb capacity). > >cheers, > >Lance Smith-Corona PWP's used 2.8" diskettes and didn't Zenith offer a 2" diskette at one time? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 10 18:32:22 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:32:22 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512101632220628.0FB25C99@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 12:09 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: >Code-cruncher quiz: Could this be done in 8088 code without DAA or a jump >or a reference to a table in memory using only a single 8-bit register? What? No takers? I'll post my solution tomorrow if no one beats me to it. Uses only AL (or A) register, no jumps, no tables and will work on x80 and x86. Cheers, Chuck From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Dec 10 18:38:01 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:38:01 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512101638j3127a0f3l@mail.gmail.com> > There certainly were 3" drives that were electrcially compatible with > 5.25" ones. I have a couple of Hitachi drives that I use on a CoCo. They > were not sold _for_ the CoCo in the UK, just spare drives that I plugged in. > > 3" drives were common on Amstrad 8 bit machines in the UK (CPC664, > CPC6128, PCW8256, Spectrum +3 etc). IIRC, the PSW drives at least had a 26 > pin > interface connector, not the 34 pin one used on 5.25" drives, but the > signals were the same, just on different pins. They are compatible on the cpc's. I have a 3" disk in one of my pc's for copying files. As well as a 3.5" disk on a cpc. You just need a switch on the cable to select disk side. Dan From djg at pdp8.net Sat Dec 10 20:12:48 2005 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:12:48 -0500 Subject: TU56 motor capacitors Message-ID: <200512110212.jBB2CmO06036@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Mine are shot and I was looking for replacements. I found this site part DAL-2EJ100 that looks like a acceptable replacement but min buy of 50 at $4 each = $200 http://www.capacitorindustries.com/excessinv.htm It looks like the existing ones are 2" by 4 1/8", these are 2" by 4.92" which seems like they will fit ok. Is anybody else looking for capacitors who would like to split an order? If so email me and I will buy them and split across all the interested people. Know of any other good source? From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 10 17:10:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:10:32 +0000 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512101632220628.0FB25C99@10.0.0.252> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051211031651.QRFY11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > On 12/10/2005 at 12:09 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >Code-cruncher quiz: Could this be done in 8088 code without DAA or a jump > >or a reference to a table in memory using only a single 8-bit register? > > What? No takers? > > I'll post my solution tomorrow if no one beats me to it. Uses only AL (or > A) register, no jumps, no tables and will work on x80 and x86. > > Cheers, > Chuck Ok, since you are pushing for a taker, I'll bite - also assuming you also disallow stack (cuz that would be obvious), here's a simple way to do it (8080 code): ANI 15 SUI 10 SBI 0 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI 11 SBI 10 ADI '0'+11 Cheers, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 10 21:58:02 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:58:02 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <439AAA95.6000701@gjcp.net> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> <439AAA95.6000701@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <439BA3CA.2010408@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > power". Just the V20 alone made a noticable difference to some > programs, and the 8087 made maths stuff a hell of a lot quicker. Agreed, although you had to be using something that had measureable performance. Word processing didn't get any faster obviously, but running for example FractINT was simply amazing (8087 makes FractINT actually usable on 8088). I was always a little disappointed that the 8087 didn't speed up integer math any (FDIV was at least 193 cycles, whereas DIV is never more than 162)... I could have really used that. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vrs at msn.com Sat Dec 10 21:59:38 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:59:38 -0800 Subject: TU56 motor capacitors References: <200512110212.jBB2CmO06036@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: > Mine are shot and I was looking for replacements. I found this site > part DAL-2EJ100 that looks like a acceptable replacement but min buy of > 50 at $4 each = $200 > http://www.capacitorindustries.com/excessinv.htm > It looks like the existing ones are 2" by 4 1/8", these are 2" by 4.92" > which seems like they will fit ok. > > Is anybody else looking for capacitors who would like to split an order? > If so email me and I will buy them and split across all the interested > people. > > Know of any other good source? This came up a while back, and there was a fairly extensive discussion of the differences between "motor run" and "motor start", the limitations of electrolytics in this application, etc. After that discussion I switched mine to one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7568583109 though I'm not entirely satisfied with how I have it mounted, yet. Vince From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 10 18:20:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 00:20:18 +0000 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512101632220628.0FB25C99@10.0.0.252> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > On 12/10/2005 at 12:09 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >Code-cruncher quiz: Could this be done in 8088 code without DAA or a jump > >or a reference to a table in memory using only a single 8-bit register? > > What? No takers? > > I'll post my solution tomorrow if no one beats me to it. Uses only AL (or > A) register, no jumps, no tables and will work on x80 and x86. After looking at what I posted in my previous response, I realized that I could do the adjustments in single instructions by alternating ACI and SBI instructions - took a little bit of head scratching to work through the carries and come up with the right numbers, however this little sequence will do it in only 8 instructions (plus the ANI 15 which isn't really part of the algorithm if you need it): ANI $0F ADI $F6 ACI $0A SBI $09 SBI $F5 ACI $F6 ACI $0A SBI $09 SBI $C5 I don't think you can get any fewer instructions using this algorithm, because you need to adjust the alphanumerics by an offset of 7, and you need one extra instruction to set the inital carry flag boundary, which makes 8 in total. There will be an equivalent sequence beginning with a SUI 10 and reversing the operations all the way down. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 10 23:24:28 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:24:28 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512101632220628.0FB25C99@10.0.0.252> References: <0IR800IJKWCP2VC9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512091320360532.09DC747C@10.0.0.252> <439A24E3.1060509@oldskool.org> <439A487E.90508@pacbell.net> <200512092036380479.0B6BA503@10.0.0.252> <439A7175.4010102@jcwren.com> <439A8900.8010208@pacbell.net> <20051210095629.J65059@shell.lmi.net> <439B29F0.6040304@jcwren.com> <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <200512101632220628.0FB25C99@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439BB80C.8070309@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2005 at 12:09 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>Code-cruncher quiz: Could this be done in 8088 code without DAA or a jump >>or a reference to a table in memory using only a single 8-bit register? > > > What? No takers? > > I'll post my solution tomorrow if no one beats me to it. Uses only AL (or > A) register, no jumps, no tables and will work on x80 and x86. > > Cheers, > Chuck ; convert a nibble in A to an ascii hex character using only ; a single register, no DAA, no branches, ; and no tables. ; ; the crux of it is to drive a wedge between the values 0-9 ; and A-F. this is done by adding the right amount to always ; generate a carry for the higher group of numbers, then do ; an "adi 0" to increment only the higher numbers. ; ; we need to wedge them apart 7 times to account for the ; ascii difference between '9'+1 (0x3A) and 'A' (0x41). ani 15 ; isolate lowest nibble ; wedge step 1 adi 246 ; 0-9 are 246-255 with cy=0 ; A-F are 0-5 with cy=1 adc 0 ; A-F are now 1-6 ; wedge step 2 sui 246 ; 0-9 are 0-9 again with cy=0 ; A-F are now 11-16 with cy=1 adc 0 ; 0-9 are 0-9; A-F are now 12-17 ; wedge step 3 adi 246 adc 0 ; wedge step 4 sui 246 adc 0 ; wedge step 5 adi 246 adc 0 ; wedge step 6 sui 246 adc 0 ; wedge step 7 adi 246 adc 0 ; convert to ascii adi '0'-246 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 10 23:31:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 23:31:33 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439BB9B5.4050602@oldskool.org> Much appreciated, thank you. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>Toast, of course. Before Nero existed, I used a Mac IIci and Toast >>>for all my CD burning needs. >> >>Which version of Toast? Under which version of Mac OS? > > > You made me go to the basement to verify... Let's > see: Toast 3.5.7, Jam 2.5, MacOS 7.6.1 on the IIci, > and MacOS 8.6 on an 8100. > > carlos. > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 00:07:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:07:53 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211031651.QRFY11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211031651.QRFY11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512102207530636.10E587C7@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 11:10 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: > ANI 15 > SUI 10 > SBI 0 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI 11 > SBI 10 > ADI '0'+11 Good job! That's pretty much the idea, my solution uses addition (here's the 8086 version) and one fewer instruction (you could o the same by changing the value on that "SBI 0): AND AL,0FH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,3AH Next bit twiddler challenge--can anyone do this in fewer instructions? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 00:24:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 22:24:41 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 12:20 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: >I don't think you can get any fewer instructions using this algorithm, >because you need to adjust the alphanumerics by an offset of 7, and >you need one extra instruction to set the inital carry flag boundary, >which makes 8 in total. I haven't found a shorter solution yet. Good work! So who needs DAA? Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 11 00:26:48 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:26:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512110707.CAA25423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > ADI $F6 > ACI $0A [...] > SBI $09 > SBI $C5 > I don't think you can get any fewer instructions using this > algorithm, because you need to adjust the alphanumerics by an offset > of 7, and you need one extra instruction to set the inital carry flag > boundary, which makes 8 in total. Now, how about lowercase hex (a-f instead of A-F)? Adjusting by 39 instead of 7 would be a sufficient pain that I do not consider this algorithm suitable. I have some ideas for other possible algorithms, but so far that's all they are, ideas; they may end up not working. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 11 01:15:50 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:15:50 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512102207530636.10E587C7@10.0.0.252> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211031651.QRFY11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102207530636.10E587C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439BD226.7040408@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Next bit twiddler challenge--can anyone do this in fewer instructions? You mean "can anyone do this in fewer instructions without using any additional registers"? I was halfway through my answer before I remembered the original challenge :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 01:31:20 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) Message-ID: <20051211073120.93645.qmail@web25014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Now, how about lowercase hex (a-f instead of A-F)? Adjusting by > 39 instead of 7 would be a sufficient pain that I do not consider > this algorithm suitable. You don't need to, just OR the result with $20. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 11 01:41:15 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 01:41:15 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>I don't think you can get any fewer instructions using this algorithm, >>because you need to adjust the alphanumerics by an offset of 7, and >>you need one extra instruction to set the inital carry flag boundary, >>which makes 8 in total. > > I haven't found a shorter solution yet. Good work! > > So who needs DAA? Anyone who wants to implement the nybble-to-hex functionality in a lot shorter space, maybe? :-) This: AND AL,0FH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,0AH ADD AL,0F6H ADC AL,3AH ...is 30 bytes (accumulator forms included). This: mov bx,offset hextable and al,0fh xlat bx hextable: db '0123456789ABCDEF' ...is a total of 22 bytes including the hex table. (I love xlat.) But our DAA solution: and al,15 add al,90h daa adc al,40h daa ...is only 8 bytes. If DAA were slow, I'd say ditch it. But DAA is only 4 cycles and according to my real-world 8088 timings (slow night tonight), the DAA approach is only just a hair slower than the XLAT method. So I guess there *is* a need for DAA ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 11 01:52:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 02:52:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211073120.93645.qmail@web25014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20051211073120.93645.qmail@web25014.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200512110818.DAA25646@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Now, how about lowercase hex (a-f instead of A-F)? Adjusting by 39 >> instead of 7 would be a sufficient pain that I do not consider this >> algorithm suitable. > You don't need to, just OR the result with $20. Grr, that's annoying. Here I was trying to come up with a way to do conditional arithemtic in a single register without conditionals, and you point out it's unnecessary. I was close, too - using rotates through the carry and then instructions like SBI $00. I think it's possible, though it needs lots of rotates. (Sequences like: use Dave Dunfield's code up through the second-last instruction (SBI $09), then SBI $F5; RLC; RLC; RLC; RLC; SBI $00; RRC; RRC; RRC; RRC. That gives too wide a gap, but I think it could be modified into the kind of solution I was thinking about.) Still, it was fun to work on. Trying to do things in a ridiculously constrained environment (like conditional arithmetic without conditionals) can be fun. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 10 19:59:04 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:59:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reading Mac 800k Disks on Non-Mac Systems Message-ID: <20051211015904.95426.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> you guys should post some pics of your boards and stuph. In the event of a lack of a place to put them, use the photo area of the Midatlanticretro yahoo group. You have my express permission LOL LOL. And Al lives in the area, and wed love to have you sign on. To my knowledge there is currently no member with a specific interest in STs (besides me). --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:48:58 -0800 (PST), Al Hartman wrote: > : > > > >I think I have a board here called a "Hydra", at > >least... That's what the guy who sold it to me said it > >was... It was a board for an AT that was a MacPlus on > >a board, and allowed the PC to run Mac Software. I > >don't have any docs, software, or cables for it... > > > >And I'm not even sure this board IS a "Hydra" board. > > > >It has a 68k processor on it, but I don't see any Mac > >ROMS. > > > >This might be a terminal emulator board that someone > >thought was a Hydra Board. > > > : > I've such a board here as well, but unfortunately without any > docs and software too ... > ... it includes 4 ATT 3030 Chips, a MC68000, 4 MB Rams and some > Zilog chips. There are connectors for floppy and scsi drives too. > I would be very happy to get it up and running > > > Ciao Bernd > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 10 20:08:09 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking to buy/swap/extort old Bytes, PC mag, PC World... Message-ID: <20051211020809.15311.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I presently have this in Bytes - all of 1982, half of 83, 3/4 of 84. Nothing else of note. If theres particular issues yer looking for, or have stuph yer willing to unload, please contact. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 10 20:27:33 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:27:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reading Mac 800k Disks on Non-Mac Systems Message-ID: <20051211022733.23833.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> as an aside to this thread, the Victor 9000/Sirius micro, an 8088 system purported to operate in minimum mode, used a disk scheme similar to Macs. More data was stored on the outer tracks, squeezing 1.2meg I think onto a DD disk. Theres a site based in the UK with gobs of software. Good luck hacking up a boot disk though. Victor was a reputable calculator maker at one time, but flopped in the PC business. Their 2nd model, the VPC-II, a real compatible, is less seldom found. Mine lacks the keyboard :( --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On my Atari 520-ST, I have a "Magic Sac" from David > Small, that emulates a Mac 128/512 or a Mac Plus with > the appropriate ROMS. > > I bought the optional "Transporter One" which is a > seperate computer (Z-80 Based, I think...) that reads > and writes to 800k Floppies using the Floppy > Controller port and the MIDI ports on the ST to > communicate to the Transporter One. > > I also have a Spectre GCR, which is the follow on > product when David Small started his own company. > > This unit has something in it that allows it to > read/write to 800k Floppies without the Transporter > One. > > The Transporter is slow, and we used to convert Mac > Floppies to the Proprietary Magic Sac 800k Format that > could be accessed with the ST's Floppy Controller. > > This was a pretty neat solution at the time, giving > one a FASTER Mac than a Mac, with a bigger screen and > access to Parallel Printers (using "Epstart"). > > I did a lot of advertising work on my ST back in the > day. Unfortunately, my AERCO Ram upgrade gave up the > ghost, and I can't find the Docs for it. > > So, I'm back to 512k unless I want to piggyback some > RAM and take it up to 1024k. > > Used to have 2.5mb, which for a Mac Plus was plenty! > > Someday, I'll get it working again... Or find a MegaST > cheap with a Hard Drive. > > Those were nice systems. A shame Atari didn't sell > them as business computers in a professional form > factor. > > I also used to have a Trackstar 128, which would allow > a PC to Emulate an Apple ][+, and with a minor mod to > certain floppy drives... Read and Write Apple II disks > natively. > > I've gotta find another one of those someday. > > I think I have a board here called a "Hydra", at > least... That's what the guy who sold it to me said it > was... It was a board for an AT that was a MacPlus on > a board, and allowed the PC to run Mac Software. I > don't have any docs, software, or cables for it... > > And I'm not even sure this board IS a "Hydra" board. > > It has a 68k processor on it, but I don't see any Mac > ROMS. > > This might be a terminal emulator board that someone > thought was a Hydra Board. > > Regards, > Al Hartman > Philadelphia, PA > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 10 21:48:08 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 19:48:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3.25 diskettes Message-ID: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, which had some pretty nifty firmware feature, which was able to exert control of the command line of another computer connected by a serial cable. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 12/11/2005 at 9:22 AM Lance Lyon wrote: > > >Amstrad CPC's used 3" diskettes (180kb capacity). > > > >cheers, > > > >Lance > > Smith-Corona PWP's used 2.8" diskettes and didn't Zenith offer a 2" > diskette at one time? > > --Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From g-wright at att.net Sat Dec 10 23:14:44 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 05:14:44 +0000 Subject: looking for a Signetics N8234N Chip Message-ID: <121120050514.3220.439BB5C3000EE4FE00000C9421602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, ALL I'm working a DEC PDP8 M8316 console board and need a Signetics N8234N IC. Can't seem to find them with out spending 100.00 minimum order. Any pointers would be helpful. Thanks, Jerry Wright Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 11 01:47:27 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:47:27 +0000 Subject: need info on Cirus logic Processor set in a PDP8 Message-ID: <121120050747.10163.439BD98F00045798000027B321612436469B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi I have A PDP8/A with a Cirus logic Processor board set. This uses the other DEC IO boards but has it own Processor board set. I seems to work but I have not figured out the Console ports and if one can Bypass the ROM boot. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 11 03:58:13 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:58:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > After looking at what I posted in my previous response, I realized that I > could do the adjustments in single instructions by alternating ACI and > SBI instructions - took a little bit of head scratching to work through the > carries and come up with the right numbers, however this little sequence > will do it in only 8 instructions (plus the ANI 15 which isn't really part of > the algorithm if you need it): > > ANI $0F > > ADI $F6 > ACI $0A > SBI $09 > SBI $F5 > ACI $F6 > ACI $0A > SBI $09 > SBI $C5 These are 9 instructions taking 18 bytes. How about this: SET R1,#$F0 LBI R2,#$F9 SLE R1,R2 SUB R1,#$39 Four instructions, eight bytes, EBCDIC character as output! Now guess what machine this is for. Hint: the machine has no flags and no stack. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 04:56:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:56:14 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <1343.192.168.0.2.1134247935.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> <1343.192.168.0.2.1134247935.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <439C05CE.9050200@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > As for 3", they were used in the UK by the budget home computer brands - > Sinclair, Amstrad, Tatung, Oric (Tangerine) etc. Did Sinclair use them purely because Amstrad had taken them over (or were about to) and Amstrad forced them to use that drive? I remember magazine articles around the +3 launch complaining that it didn't have a 3.5" drive. The other possibility is that there wasn't room in the case for a bigger drive whilst keeping it the same footprint / style as the +2 :-) Actually, I'd followed Sinclair up to that point - it was the fact that the +3 had a 'funny' drive which put me off getting one; I held out with my +2 for a bit longer and ended up getting an Amiga... cheers Jules From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 11 05:06:27 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:06:27 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <200512101616020629.0FA3688E@10.0.0.252> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> <00cb01c5fdd8$4823dbc0$0100a8c0@pentium> <200512101616020629.0FA3688E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439C0833.6040408@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Smith-Corona PWP's used 2.8" diskettes and didn't Zenith offer a 2" > diskette at one time? Ah, but the 2.8" disks were the recently-discussed "Quick Disk" drives, that read about 128k off one big spiral track. They showed up in musical equipment quite a lot - old Akai samplers (S612, S700), Korg SQD sequencer and the Roland S10 sampler spring to mind. Ebay link for an S700: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7371548630 Gordon. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 11 01:22:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:22:30 +0000 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> References: <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051211112850.TSEO9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > So who needs DAA? > > Anyone who wants to implement the nybble-to-hex functionality in a lot shorter > space, maybe? :-) This: I think the original point is that there are plenty of suitable ways to convert a nibble into printable hex without DAA, so if DAA is no longer being used for it's intended purpoase, it has become an unnecessary wart on the instruction set. If there truly is a requirement for a smaller nibble-to-asci function, then this is not justification for keeping DAA, instead it should be replaced by a CNA (Convert Nibble to Ascii) instruction should be added, and you would have the ultimate 1-byte solution. Of course, practically there will always be "clever" people who have found uses for DAA and used it and removing it would break some % of existing code, so we are stuck with it for as long as we continue to maintain backward compatibility with the x86 architecture. Regards, Dave Btw, in response to the guy who posted a "shorter" solution (who's message seems to have gotten accidently killed in the "purge the flood" step of reading this group, unless I am mistaken, R1 and R2 refer to two different registers - this violates the original specification of the problem. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From terry at terryking.us Sun Dec 11 04:20:14 2005 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:20:14 +0100 Subject: 6502 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <200512110458.jBB4wv7C081230@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20051211111326.0109f1e0@mail.terryking.us> At 10:58 PM 12/10/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > Anyone tried OS-65D, early disk operating system from Ohio Scientific?? > Not > > sure about the > > hardware dependencies.... > >Tell me a little about it. Is there source somewhere? OSI did not release the source. Once upon a time someone I knew in a large 3-letter computer company disassembled OS65-D over a month or two of watching football games on TV. He was the kind of guy who needed to keep his mind busy while watching football..... He eventually got a set of commented source that would reassemble and run, and we were able to add a new printer driver to some jump table. I have no idea if he is still around, and if the source is either. I'll ask about. That disassembled OS65D listing had something to do with a big fight that ended up with the IBM PC having the BIOS LISTING!! in the TechRef. But that's another story.... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 07:11:40 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:11:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6502 Operating Systems Message-ID: <20051211131140.57872.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Once upon a time someone I knew in a large 3-letter computer > company disassembled OS65-D over a month or two of watching > football games on TV. ... > I have no idea if he is still around, and if the source is > either. I'll ask about. The source is here .. http://www.osiweb.org/osiweb/ .. in .pdf form Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Exclusive Xmas Game, help Santa with his celebrity party - http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 07:20:21 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:20:21 +0000 Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512110458q5d616c70m@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640512110458q5d616c70m@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512110520w1ccb8a5ag@mail.gmail.com> I found this link yesterday : http://sbeam.dk/blog/?p=9 I thought some people here might find it interesting, I have done similiar things myself with a portable cd-player and with a pc sound card. A bit expensive just for this, but if you get the quality quite high you can vastly increase the loading speed. Dan From James at jdfogg.com Sun Dec 11 07:22:20 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:22:20 -0500 Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines > > I found this link yesterday : > > http://sbeam.dk/blog/?p=9 > > I thought some people here might find it interesting, I have > done similiar things myself with a portable cd-player and > with a pc sound card. A bit expensive just for this, but if > you get the quality quite high you can vastly increase the > loading speed. I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious bits. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 07:34:19 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:34:19 +0000 Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512110534j44cdf7faj@mail.gmail.com> > > I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious bits. > > > It says in the article that he used wav files and mp3's didn't work Dan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 11 07:52:03 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:52:03 GMT Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines In-Reply-To: Dan Williams "Re: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines" (Dec 11, 13:34) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> <26c11a640512110534j44cdf7faj@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10512111352.ZM28952@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 11 2005, 13:34, Dan Williams wrote: > > > > I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious bits. > > > > > > > It says in the article that he used wav files and mp3's didn't work Hmm.. All I can say is it works for me and some other people who use it for Exidy machines, and I know several people who've used MP3s for BBC Micros. Perhaps the Amstrad machine is being unusually picky or perhaps there was something unusual about the MP3 encoding he tried. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 11 07:48:56 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:48:56 GMT Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines In-Reply-To: "James Fogg" "RE: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines" (Dec 11, 8:22) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <10512111348.ZM28949@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 11 2005, 8:22, James Fogg wrote: > > Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines > > > > I found this link yesterday : > > > > http://sbeam.dk/blog/?p=9 > > > > I thought some people here might find it interesting, I have > > done similiar things myself with a portable cd-player and > > with a pc sound card. A bit expensive just for this, but if > > you get the quality quite high you can vastly increase the > > loading speed. > > > I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious bits. It doesn't. Some of us have been doing this for years. It's not new :-) Almost all the games and commercial software I have for my Exidy Sorcerer are MP3s which load at 1200 baud. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 08:18:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:18:14 -0500 Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines Message-ID: <0IRC0066B7OL57NH@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:52:03 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Dec 11 2005, 13:34, Dan Williams wrote: >> > >> > I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious >bits. >> > >> > >> > >> It says in the article that he used wav files and mp3's didn't work > >Hmm.. All I can say is it works for me and some other people who use >it for Exidy machines, and I know several people who've used MP3s for >BBC Micros. Perhaps the Amstrad machine is being unusually picky or >perhaps there was something unusual about the MP3 encoding he tried. > Loosing bits shoulld not render a problem. The original audio recorders were pretty low fidelity so loosing a few waveform buts are trivial. Keeping mind that cassette port data is binary bits represented as audio tones. That data had to withstand all the assaults a casette and the associated 20-50 dollar lo-fi recorder and player delivered. Lossy MP3 is very hi-fi compared to that. Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 11 08:22:17 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:22:17 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <439C3619.9080505@pacbell.net> Christian Corti wrote: ... > These are 9 instructions taking 18 bytes. > How about this: > SET R1,#$F0 > LBI R2,#$F9 > SLE R1,R2 > SUB R1,#$39 > Four instructions, eight bytes, EBCDIC character as output! Now guess > what machine this is for. Hint: the machine has no flags and no stack. > > Christian Not even knowing anything about the CPU, I'm guessing it is the CPU in the IBM 5100. That was deduced from your interests, not the code. :-) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 11 08:30:34 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:30:34 +0000 Subject: Using an ipod shuffle with 8-bit machines In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5A4B@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <439C380A.8000602@gjcp.net> James Fogg wrote: > I would expect the lossy compression of MP3 would drop precious bits. MP3 works perfectly for me, even with my very very picky Polysix. Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 11 09:33:18 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:33:18 -0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <439C05CE.9050200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20051210085142.P65059@shell.lmi.net> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512091724430821.0ABBF1E2@10.0.0.252> <002001c5fd60$bea17ff0$2101a8c0@finans> <5.1.0.14.2.20051210150437.0396f488@mail.30below.com> <1343.192.168.0.2.1134247935.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <439C05CE.9050200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1288.192.168.0.2.1134315198.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sun, December 11, 2005 10:56 am, Jules Richardson said: > > Did Sinclair use them purely because Amstrad had taken them over (or were > about to) and Amstrad forced them to use that drive? I remember magazine > articles around the +3 launch complaining that it didn't have a 3.5" > drive. I think so. The 3.5" drive was too expensive at that point, though it didn't stop the likes of Opus producing the Discovery for the Spectrum - a disk unit that was more expensive than the machine it fastened to! > The other possibility is that there wasn't room in the case for a bigger > drive > whilst keeping it the same footprint / style as the +2 :-) What's half an inch between friends? :) > Actually, I'd followed Sinclair up to that point - it was the fact that > the +3 > had a 'funny' drive which put me off getting one; I held out with my +2 > for a > bit longer and ended up getting an Amiga... I'd stopped using any machine at all 'cos I'd got bored with my Spectrum and Grandstand cartridge system and couldn't afford to get anything else. I managed to get myself an Amiga at cost price once I'd started work though, 1987-ish. I think that's where the rot started setting in and I lost interest in writing things for the machine and concentrated on playing games! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From m_thompson at ids.net Sun Dec 11 09:49:53 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:49:53 -0500 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: References: <000301c5fc50$e25212e0$9a1836d0@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051211103034.0420e870@155.212.1.107> Given enough spare time and some guidance I can connect my VAX 3540 to HECnet. I have a DMR11 that I can put in the VAX, a synchronous null-modem, and a KDP that can go in the KS10. This would theoretically get a PDP10 on HECnet. At 07:05 PM 12/8/2005, Julian Wolfe wrote: >Yeah, as soon as I get my TK50 or one of my 9 tracks working I'm going to >load DECnet/E, and then hopefully put my 11/23plus up on HECnet. > >It would be neat if we could get the guy running the DEC 10 on pdpplanet to >link up to us also. > >I think this'll pick up steam as it rolls downhill, as most net trends do. >Once people see that there are several machines on the network, it'll become >larger. > >I gotta say, it sure would be cool to have my installation of DECmail >connected with other systems across the globe. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong > > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:41 PM > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network > > > > > > I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked > > together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no really > > good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do "SHOW NET" > > or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of machines that > > aren't > > mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share access to real, > > non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 or 20, machines. > > > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? > > > > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a few > > email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > > > > At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is > > having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two nodes. > > > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going strong? > > > > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the > > Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for > > point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and > > even > > DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. Right > > now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist license > > program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet circuits > > using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. They're simple to > > set up and administer. > > > > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, and > > I > > can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV > > routing node. > > > > Bob Armstrong > > > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 11 05:55:36 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:55:36 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run native on the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), "System/Utilities" and "Languages". The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, so I have hunted that down and swatted it. I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export text files as console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode ("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to where you started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack corruption bug :-). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From eelco at huininga.nl Sun Dec 11 10:05:42 2005 From: eelco at huininga.nl (Eelco Huininga) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:05:42 +0100 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface Message-ID: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? It seems like almost nothing has survived... Cheers, Eelco From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 10:21:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:21:43 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 1:41 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >If DAA were slow, I'd say ditch it. But DAA is only 4 cycles and >according to >my real-world 8088 timings (slow night tonight), the DAA approach is only >just >a hair slower than the XLAT method. > >So I guess there *is* a need for DAA ;-) Mind you, I'm not even a fan of XLAT, as a simple indexed load is probably faster on the Pentium-class machines. I prefer something a bit more orthogonal in its use of registers. I'm going to make a leap here and suppose that the original intention of the DAA was to enable addition in packed BCD arithmetic. That it can be used in a hoary old "neat trick" to convert a nibble to an ASCII representation is a red herring. That being the case, does it really have a place in an architecture where it's faster to do 32-bit BCD addition in, say, XS3? (Assuming that is, that anyone really has a need for it on a Pentium-class machine). Or is DAA simply the feed bag that's been left for "compatibility" purposes on a turbocharged V12 road machine just in case someone wants to hook old Dobbin up? Cheers, Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Dec 11 10:37:55 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:37:55 -0600 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051211103139.05ad0068@mail.ubanproductions.com> Cool Dave! Is this running on other hardware than your homebuilt 6809 machines? Can you please describe the Cubix features (disk?, commands?, etc.)? Or should I just RTFM... I wrote a ton of 6809 assembly when I was programming pinball machines at Williams/Bally in the 90's. --tnx --tom At 11:55 AM 12/11/2005 +0000, you wrote: >For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and >planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): > >I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for >the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. > >Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run >native on >the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- >level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. > >Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has >been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), >"System/Utilities" >and "Languages". > >The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, >so I have hunted that down and swatted it. > >I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export >text files as >console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to >disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode >("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which >allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to >where you >started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >corruption bug :-). > >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 10:43:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 08:43:59 -0800 Subject: 3.25 diskettes In-Reply-To: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> On 12/10/2005 at 7:48 PM Chris M wrote: >yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, >which had some pretty nifty firmware feature, which >was able to exert control of the command line of >another computer connected by a serial cable. That's the one! Does this hold the distinction for the smallest floppy ever used on a production system? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 10:54:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:54:52 +0000 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> References: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> Message-ID: <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> Eelco Huininga wrote: > Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? Amazingly, I've got the "IEEE488 interface user guide" for the BBC micro. I remember your message on the BBC list about this, and had a *really* vague recollection at the time of seeing something to do with the unit a while back amongst piles of other stuff. I had absolutely no idea where it'd be though - assuming I hadn't imagined it anyway (and that it was even something useful). Then I went and spotted the darn thing on top of a pile of to-be-sorted Acorn stuff about an hour ago - so good timing on a second posting here! It's 86 pages including covers, but it is A5 size, so I could try and scan it at two pages per scan on my A4 scanner sometime - not sure if I'll get chance this side of Christmas, although I can try.... Oh, I probably already have a scan of the Acorn advertising for the unit too (it'll just be an A4 page), although I'm surprised that's not already out there in electronic form. I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I have the actual BBC version's schematics though, although I'll check) > It seems like almost nothing has survived... I don't think they were widely used. I suppose the BBC micro came with enough expansion options that most people had no need for it. Cambridge university still had one as of last year, but I'm not sure what's happened to it since or if there was any software with it (almost certainly not; hardware from there seems to usually get thrown out separately to software / manuals). This was heard via someone else, so I'm not even sure who the contact there was. Kent uni almost certainly used to have one too, as that's where my Teletext adapter came from - with an IEEE488 box lid! I've also got a complete unit in the cupboard (but no BBC-side ROM to go with it) I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are the only four (well, three and a lid) I've ever heard of. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Dec 11 11:01:07 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:01:07 -0600 Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051211105931.052ad968@mail> Speaking of audio cassette storage, I received this inquiry to my web. Click the link to hear the data he has... What's odd to my ear is that the data seems to be packeted between carrier. Might this be someone's custom data, as opposed to ordinary program load/save? As for why MP3s work fine and .WAV is unnecessary, MP3's compression divides the signal into ~32 frequency bands, then encodes the amplitude of those over time. The typical two-frequency sine modulation used by cassette data recorders probably fits quite well into those two bins, and MP3 would recreate the simple sine waves quite well. After all, some of the hardware/software decoders within the classic PCs (as well as their emulators) may have only used the timings of zero-crossings, so they aren't very sensitive to perfect reproduction of the waves. - John >Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:11:34 +0100 >From: Paul Geisler >To: jfoust at threedee.com >Subject: unknown data tape > > >hello. > >i found some old tapes i know nothing about ecept by title it may contain interesting information, and came from merely professional use. > >the tapes are recorded on standard compact casette but with some dedication to data recording for example switchable write protection etc. >the label reads "T 300 Certified Data Casette". > >i capture the contents by stereo tape recorder, found both channels nearly equal so guess this mono, mixed them. the tapes are two-sided like normal audio ones. > >a strange thing is, that the recording is in small "packets", with empty tape inbetween. i first guessed it is only "empty formatted" tape, but the data packets seem to contain a varying length of information. still strange to waste more than a half of material this way? also strange the packets are ending with a simple tone, instead are headed with, so maybe this is used backward at original drives. > >here is a seven packet sample some minutes after beginning of one tape; all tapes seemed to have this same "format" from start to some end location which is not the real tape end: >http://hirnsohle.de/test/datenSnipplet.wav (16bit mono microsoft-wav 624kb) > >i would be very happy if you had any idea how to look at the contents (if any).. i'm currently searching for some sofware "tape modem". i know such things for C64 datasette tapes, so maybe you know some universal program, where different emulations or flexible parameters can be used to find a matching demodulation/decoding? > >thanks very much & best regards >Paul Geisler From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Dec 11 11:22:33 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:22:33 +0100 Subject: unknown data tape References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051211105931.052ad968@mail> Message-ID: <000c01c5fe77$790e22a0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:01 PM Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape > > Speaking of audio cassette storage, I received this inquiry > to my web. Click the link to hear the data he has... What's > odd to my ear is that the data seems to be packeted between > carrier. Might this be someone's custom data, as opposed to > ordinary program load/save? > If I would have to make a guess, I would say "ECMA 34" format. It sounds a lot like the cassettes used on Philips minis like the P300, P400, P6000 etc. ISTR that the recording was serial, recording speed 6000 bps, one track, with 250K bytes on each side. Nico From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 11:22:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:22:16 -0800 Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051211105931.052ad968@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20051211105931.052ad968@mail> Message-ID: <200512110922160145.134EF03B@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 11:01 AM John Foust wrote: >Speaking of audio cassette storage, I received this inquiry >to my web. Click the link to hear the data he has... What's >odd to my ear is that the data seems to be packeted between >carrier. Might this be someone's custom data, as opposed to >ordinary program load/save? I don't know about the content, but units that used these cassette tapes to simulate a paper tape reader or punch were not uncommon in the early-to-mid 70's. I used to have one with two decks and was block formatted and searchable--in either direction. Top speed IIRC, was about 2400 baud. For a time, I used it with an early editing terminal as a rudimentary word processing system. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 11:24:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:24:02 -0800 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> References: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512110924020848.1350910B@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Eelco Huininga wrote: >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 11:32:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:32:42 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRC009NHGOROT07@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Tom Uban > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:37:55 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Cool Dave! > >Is this running on other hardware than your homebuilt 6809 machines? Can >you please describe the Cubix features (disk?, commands?, etc.)? Or should >I just RTFM... I'll comment. Ave has two distinct systems listed on his web site and their interesting. I'm working on building one for portable(toteable) use. First I'd say I'm from the 8080/8085/z80/z180 mostly world though I've played with lots of others. This is however my first real venture into the 68xx world though I'd looked at 6809 for a long time and have a COCO3 to play with. So I'm not near as comfortable with 6809 as many may be. What I've learned looking and working with the sim is that it's a very good cpu and somehow never got the populartity I'd have expected for the performance. Basic features: 6809 with a low chip count and despite the apparent low clock speed the CPU cycle usage is different (close to 6502) and operating speed is decently fast. Basic design (portable) is 48k ram and ROM resisdent OS. The resident OS can address up to 32mb of storage per logical device and the OS is sophisticated in that sparse files and scatter/gather are nominally part of it (like CP/M, unix, VMS). The OS is easily configured for any device (floppy, IDE, CF whatever). Same for IO (serial memory mapped video). One central item in my mind is that it's complete with supporting software such as editors, assemblers, languages and the sources are there. The documentation is good as well. Reading the manual gives depth to what I'm only outlining here. The outstanding feature if your interested at all, there's a good simulator for the hardware with matching software to play with, test drive if you will. The sim plays well on my P166 NT box, my W98 P100 and a dosbox. >I wrote a ton of 6809 assembly when I was programming pinball machines >at Williams/Bally in the 90's. ;) Then I'd expect you'll find programming the '09 familiar. Allison >--tnx >--tom > >At 11:55 AM 12/11/2005 +0000, you wrote: > >>For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and >>planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): >> >>I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for >>the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. >> >>Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run >>native on >>the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- >>level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. >> >>Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has >>been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), >>"System/Utilities" >>and "Languages". >> >>The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, >>so I have hunted that down and swatted it. >> >>I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export >>text files as >>console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to >>disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode >>("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which >>allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to >>where you >>started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >>corruption bug :-). >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >>-- >>dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >>dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >>com Collector of vintage computing equipment: >> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 11:38:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 12:38:52 -0500 Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape Message-ID: <0IRC00GMGGYW4ZAF@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape > From: John Foust > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 11:01:07 -0600 > To: > > >Speaking of audio cassette storage, I received this inquiry >to my web. Click the link to hear the data he has... What's >odd to my ear is that the data seems to be packeted between >carrier. Might this be someone's custom data, as opposed to >ordinary program load/save? No and yes. Most of the cassette schemes were either FM or FSK and both required a carrier to establish sync before the data. there were a quite a few modulation schemes but they can be described as either frequency shift keyed or phase shift keyed and in some ways similar. The important factors were cassette recorder players had poor speed control (both short and long term) high background noise (only soso signal to noise) and lousy bandwidth (rolls off below 300hz and the upper liimit maybe 8-11khz). So the recording schemes had to compensate for that. Allison > >As for why MP3s work fine and .WAV is unnecessary, MP3's >compression divides the signal into ~32 frequency bands, then >encodes the amplitude of those over time. The typical >two-frequency sine modulation used by cassette data recorders >probably fits quite well into those two bins, and MP3 would >recreate the simple sine waves quite well. > >After all, some of the hardware/software decoders within the >classic PCs (as well as their emulators) may have only used >the timings of zero-crossings, so they aren't very sensitive >to perfect reproduction of the waves. > >- John > >>Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:11:34 +0100 >>From: Paul Geisler >>To: jfoust at threedee.com >>Subject: unknown data tape >> >> >>hello. >> >>i found some old tapes i know nothing about ecept by title it may contain interesting information, and came from merely professional use. >> >>the tapes are recorded on standard compact casette but with some dedication to data recording for example switchable write protection etc. >>the label reads "T 300 Certified Data Casette". >> >>i capture the contents by stereo tape recorder, found both channels nearly equal so guess this mono, mixed them. the tapes are two-sided like normal audio ones. >> >>a strange thing is, that the recording is in small "packets", with empty tape inbetween. i first guessed it is only "empty formatted" tape, but the data packets seem to contain a varying length of information. still strange to waste more than a half of material this way? also strange the packets are ending with a simple tone, instead are headed with, so maybe this is used backward at original drives. >> >>here is a seven packet sample some minutes after beginning of one tape; all tapes seemed to have this same "format" from start to some end location which is not the real tape end: >>http://hirnsohle.de/test/datenSnipplet.wav (16bit mono microsoft-wav 624kb) >> >>i would be very happy if you had any idea how to look at the contents (if any).. i'm currently searching for some sofware "tape modem". i know such things for C64 datasette tapes, so maybe you know some universal program, where different emulations or flexible parameters can be used to find a matching demodulation/decoding? >> >>thanks very much & best regards >>Paul Geisler From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 11 08:57:51 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:57:51 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051211103139.05ad0068@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Cool Dave! > > Is this running on other hardware than your homebuilt 6809 machines? Can > you please describe the Cubix features (disk?, commands?, etc.)? Or should > I just RTFM... Hi Tom, I've got 4-5 different homebuilts running CUBIX, ranging from the Portable pictured on my web page (integrated keyboard/video, dual disks, "full load" of RAM, several serial ports and other peripheral devices) to really stripped down systems which can be constructed from a (fairly small) handful of parts and using a serial connection for the console. This has been around since the mid-80's and over the years a number of other people have built up CUBIX systems as well. There has been talk of porting it to the CoCo, however I never got into the CoCo enough to bother (too "packaged" for my liking :-), and I am not aware of anyone else who has done so. There is also of course the D6809 simulator (on my site) which will let you run the system on any PC / DOS compatible environment. In response to some interest I posted a bit of information about the CUBIX OS a week or two ago here in the list, search the archives and you should find it (or I can send it to you). To quickly summarize: CUBIX is the software portion of a completely self designed system I did in the 80's. Don't let the "homegrown" origin fool you, It was my main system for several years, and I did offer it as a product. It iis fully mature and well documented. A very brief summary of the features: - Designed to be VERY portable and hardwre independant. Requires no more than a TTY type console and can deal with virtually any disk hardware and media geometry (in fact, you can reconfigure the I/O devices and disk geometry "on the fly" in a running system. Many CUBIX system can be ported simply by patching the hardware dependant initialization and driver portion of the ROM image (no mucking around with OS source code required - although this is also available). - High functionality - main OS is ROM resident (8K) and provides well over 100 system calls/services. Has a full featured file system, command shell and supports "batch" command files. - Decent command interface, somewhat VMSish in feel. Includes a couple dozen utilities and applications including pretty much all the sytem/disk/file management tools you need, several editors, assembler, BASIC, FORTH, Micro-APL, C compiler and even an 8080 simulaltor which I used to quickly port over much of my Altair code when I switched over to this as my main system. - Lots of documentation (user & technical) and a nice little online HELP command which gives all the basic/essential information to use the system. Don't want to waste more bandwidth here as I just posted this information a little while ago. Much more information can be obtained from my site (URL in sig below) - scroll down to "D6809" under "Homebuilts" and you will find lots of info. All of the documentation (.TXT files) is posted directly on the web page, and also included with the simulator (as is the disk images etc.). Highly recommended as a "fun project" if you like the idea of building a functional and unique computer (note: I mean really building, not "putting a PC board in a box"). If you have questions after all that, I am happy to answer them. If there is enough interest, I would also consider putting together a page specifically about CUBIX and building a machine to run it Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 13:14:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape In-Reply-To: <200512110922160145.134EF03B@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 5 09:22:16 am Message-ID: > I don't know about the content, but units that used these cassette tapes to > simulate a paper tape reader or punch were not uncommon in the early-to-mid Probably the most common was a verstion of the TI Silent 700. It had a box fitted on top containing 2 tape drives and a handful of boards of logic to control them. You could use them like punches or readers (save/load data either locally or to the line, copy data between the 2 tapes, 1 character at a time I think, etc). As an aside, I bought a Microwriter the other day. It contains an 1802 processor. While looking for the user manual for that chip (I found it), I came across the manual for the RCA developemnt sysetm for the 1802. Said manual contains scheamtics and ROM sources, BTW. And in the same box were the binary paper tapes for the editor and assembler and a cassette containing the same stuff to be read on such a Silent 700 Another format (or at least I think it's another format) used the full width of the tape in one go and recorded 2 tracks. A pulse on one track was a '0'. A pulse on the other track was a '1'. A pulse on both tracks together was some kind of marker. The HP9830 uses this format, the 'maker' being na end-of-byte marker. I think other machines used it for end-of-file or similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 13:19:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:19:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <200512110924020848.1350910B@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 5 09:24:02 am Message-ID: > > On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > > >Eelco Huininga wrote: > >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? > > On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for > medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few > handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 >From waht I rememebr you can do almost all the IEEE-488 stuff purely in software (the handshake is interlocked, in that something is changed by one device. then the other device changes some other line, then the first device can change a line, etc. THere's no chance of missing anything). I did say 'almost all' -- IIRC there's one thing you can't do like that, you need to do it in hardware. But it only takes a couple of gates. Commodoe, and even HP, did do the HPIB interface in software in some of their machines. For example the HP82169 HPIL - HPIB interface contains a custom HPIB buffer chip, but it is just a buffer. The actual logic is handled by the microcontroller (8049 IIRC). > capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. IIRC, (and I don't haev the schematic in front of me) the Sirius (Victor 9000) used a 6522 with some propper HPIB buffers (75160, etc). This was used for the Centronics parallel port, but with the right cable and software it could be used as an IEEE-488 port. Alas I've never seen the 'right software' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 13:03:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:03:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <439C05CE.9050200@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 11, 5 10:56:14 am Message-ID: > Did Sinclair use them purely because Amstrad had taken them over (or were > about to) and Amstrad forced them to use that drive? I remember magazine > articles around the +3 launch complaining that it didn't have a 3.5" drive. Did Sinclair ever use the 3" drive (or any other floppy?) The Spectrum +3 was surely late enough to actually be an Amstrad (which would explain the 3" drive). > Actually, I'd followed Sinclair up to that point - it was the fact that the +3 > had a 'funny' drive which put me off getting one; I held out with my +2 for a I always thought the 3" disk was mechanically superior to the 3.5" one. Pity more manufacturers didn't use it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 13:07:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:07:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> from "Eelco Huininga" at Dec 11, 5 05:05:42 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? It seems like > almost nothing has survived... There was an article in the UK magazine 'Electronics and Wireless World' in 1984 (I think) which included a schematic of the BBC IEEE-488 interface. I can find more details if anyone's interested (I know I have said article, I also have one of the interfaces). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 13:35:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:35:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 11, 5 04:54:52 pm Message-ID: > I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it > wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent Interfaces'. Anyway, there is a schematic. It's based round a 9914 chip along with the 75160 and 75162 buffers. There's a 5MHz clock circuit, an address decoder, a data bus buffer, and the normal circuit to de-glitch the page select line on the 1MHz bus. That's all. Nothing remotely odd. Link S1 selects system controller mode, link S2 selects active pull-ups on the IEEE488 data lines. The other useful thing in this article is an example program using the IEEEFS filesystem ROM, and a list of the commands you can use with the interface. It appears you open a 'file' called "COMMAND" and another called "DATA", you write command strings to the first one and use the second one to actually transfer data on the bus. Addressing looks totally strange, you seem to open a file with a name correspodning to the device address in decimal and then use the file handle of _that_ file in subsequent comamnds. Hmmm... > I've also got a complete unit in the cupboard (but no BBC-side ROM to go with it) > > I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I can't promise that. You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 15:13:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:13:29 +0000 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439C9679.2050907@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it >> wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I > > It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb > doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > Interfaces'. Aha. I've dug my unit out - on the back it says "Made in Britain for Acorn Computers" - rather than "by Acorn". There's no manufacturer's name written inside - but there is an "II" beside the Acorn part number on the PCB. > The other useful thing in this article is an example program using the > IEEEFS filesystem ROM, and a list of the commands you can use with the > interface. It appears you open a 'file' called "COMMAND" and another > called "DATA", you write command strings to the first one and use the > second one to actually transfer data on the bus. Addressing looks totally > strange, you seem to open a file with a name correspodning to the device > address in decimal and then use the file handle of _that_ file in > subsequent comamnds. Hmmm... Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in this way. >> I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are > > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > can't promise that. I certainly don't have one... > You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit > to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. From your description, the one that I have certainly does - 9914 IC, 5MHz clock, 75160 and 75162 buffers. I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, so I'll have to look for the article... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 15:18:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:18:17 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <439C9799.6040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >(The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >corruption bug :-). > > and the number 6809 ... Looking at his home page you got alot more stuff about old machines including a few 8's 11's and 12's. I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for me as I realize in hindsight that 128k of memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. Part of the reason I building a 9/18 bit cpu ( If I can ever keep the same instruction set or bit with -- next week it could be 12/24 bits using 2901 bit slices rather than the CPLD's I have ) is that I have 256k of memory something that I feel is right for a 'small' computer. With the CPLD's I can run @ 1.25 MHZ and get the feel for home-brew other than the PC or COCO-3 options I had at the time. I did have a COCO-3 but I never did get memory or OS9-II and a HD to upgrade it to a real machine. Ben alias woodelf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 15:20:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:20:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 11, 5 07:35:51 pm Message-ID: > You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit > to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. I needn't have worried... I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a metal plate screwed there. There's a PCB down the left side of the bottom (it looks to be approximately extended-length single-height Eurocard dimensions). There's a mains transformer screwed to the bottom of the case alongside it, with the normal switch and fuse on the back. I have not compared the circuit in detail to the E&WW article. But the IC numbers all agree, and from what I can see the circuit does too. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 15:22:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:22:38 -0700 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C9679.2050907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <439C9679.2050907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439C989E.60701@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > From your description, the one that I have certainly does - 9914 IC, > 5MHz clock, 75160 and 75162 buffers. > > I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, > so I'll have to look for the article... > and keep a good look out for the home built computers. You can't get them on this side of the pond. I quit subcribing to them when they wanted payment in US $ for outside the UK. I live in Canada, no way I will pay a double exchange rate. > cheers From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 11 15:28:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:28:31 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Mind you, I'm not even a fan of XLAT, as a simple indexed load is probably > faster on the Pentium-class machines. Oh it is, by far. But I love XLAT for 8088-class programming. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 15:37:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 13:37:37 -0800 Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512111337370015.1438B7E4@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 7:14 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Probably the most common was a verstion of the TI Silent 700. It had a >box fitted on top containing 2 tape drives and a handful of boards of >logic to control them. You could use them like punches or readers >(save/load data either locally or to the line, copy data between the 2 >tapes, 1 character at a time I think, etc). Funny you should mention that. When I first got my MITS 8800, one of the first problems was what to do for offline storage. ASR33's were pretty expensive, so audio cassette was a natural. I used the modem board out of a Silent 700 to work with a cheap audio drive. It wasn't fast, but it worked. I eventually hooked up the recorder's motor control so the 8800 could start and stop the tape. I recall that BASIC for the system was furnished on both paper tape and a (white case) audio cassette. But the Silent 700 modem did double duty for me--it let me dial into the mainframe at work as well as record and play back data tapes. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 15:50:23 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:50:23 -0700 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439C9F1F.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Mind you, I'm not even a fan of XLAT, as a simple indexed load is >> probably >> faster on the Pentium-class machines. > > > Oh it is, by far. But I love XLAT for 8088-class programming. I thought XLAT was a real hack! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 11 15:48:15 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:48:15 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2247@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Great Dave. I will soon be picking up the intended floppy disk interface for my 6809 board (Blinkenlight project). I must definately have a better look at your pages! Your site was already known to me :-) Perhaps I should not put so much work in my 6809 code, but grab yours. But then I'll ask first! greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Dave Dunfield Verzonden: zo 11-12-2005 12:55 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: CUBIX/6809 updates For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run native on the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), "System/Utilities" and "Languages". The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, so I have hunted that down and swatted it. I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export text files as console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode ("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to where you started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack corruption bug :-). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 11 16:08:40 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:08:40 +0000 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439CA368.9020503@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit >> to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. > > I needn't have worried... > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese > wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There > is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a > metal plate screwed there. Yes, I almost mentioned that, but I think I've seen it in one of the other cheese wedge boxes too. Might have been the Econet bridge, or possibly the Prestel adapter... cheers J. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 16:20:47 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:20:47 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRC0022BU0P8XJF@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:18:17 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>(The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >>corruption bug :-). >> >> >and the number 6809 ... >Looking at his home page you got alot more stuff about old machines >including a few 8's 11's and 12's. >I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for me as I >realize in hindsight that 128k of >memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. This the >crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. If I were doing something that needed I&D and all sorts of space then a 8088 would not come to mind either! Though 68000 would easily or even Z8000. If it were serious work then all bets are off, a paycheck depends on results. For hobby, it's more of doing something unique and different from what I've done before. Also the project has a set of goals, portable, modest power needs (battery), and enough cpu power to be useful as complete project rather than a artifact that has marginal use if any at all. If I were building TTL again nothng less than 24bits. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 16:22:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:22:55 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRC00DGIU4BRXZ9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Henk, Love the "Blinkenlight project". ;) Do tell us more, if you have a web page please point! Allison > >Subject: RE: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:48:15 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Great Dave. >I will soon be picking up the intended floppy disk interface for my 6809 board (Blinkenlight project). >I must definately have a better look at your pages! Your site was already known to me :-) >Perhaps I should not put so much work in my 6809 code, but grab yours. But then I'll ask first! > > greetz, >- Henk, PA8PDP > >________________________________ > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Dave Dunfield >Verzonden: zo 11-12-2005 12:55 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: CUBIX/6809 updates > > > >For the benefit of any one who is building up a 6809 based system and >planning to run my CUBIX OS (or thinking about it): > >I have just updated the source code, documents, disk images and simulator for >the CUBIX/6809 system which are available on my site. > >Main change is that I have ported my Micro-C 6809 compiler over to run native on >the system. Languages currently included with CUBIX are: Assembler, Asp (high- >level assembler), Basic, Forth, APL and now C. > >Due to the large size of the C documentation, the documentation diskette has >been split into two physical disks (well... images for the simulator), "System/Utilities" >and "Languages". > >The C compiler happened to expose an obscure stack corruption bug in the OS, >so I have hunted that down and swatted it. > >I've also updated the simulator to include the ability to import/export text files as >console input/output, and enhanced the debugger to include the ability to >disassemble in either "6809" mode ("SWI" == "SWI"), or in "CUBIX" mode >("SWI / FCB xx" becomes "SSR xx") and a nifty "Step over" command which >allows you to execute at full speed until the stack pointer returns to where you >started. (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >corruption bug :-). > >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > > > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 16:31:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:31:24 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRC00DGIU4BRXZ9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRC00DGIU4BRXZ9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439CA8BC.6000908@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >Henk, > >Love the "Blinkenlight project". ;) > > Well I'm not Henk but here is his site. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 16:39:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:39:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439CA368.9020503@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 11, 5 10:08:40 pm Message-ID: > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese > > wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There > > is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a > > metal plate screwed there. > > Yes, I almost mentioned that, but I think I've seen it in one of the other > cheese wedge boxes too. Might have been the Econet bridge, or possibly the > Prestel adapter... It's not the Econet bridge (or at least not in _my_ Econet bridge), that has the normal PSU (I forget if it's a linear or switch-mode one) across the front of the case. I've never seen the Pretzel (oops, Prestel) modem. I've got a scheamtic for it somwewhere, but that doesn't, IIRC, show the PSU. One day, I guess, I'll find one (although old Acorn kit does go for high prices on E-overpay...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 11 16:43:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:43:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439C989E.60701@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 11, 5 02:22:38 pm Message-ID: > > I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, > > so I'll have to look for the article... > > > and keep a good look out for the home built computers. I have most of the issues from the time when homebrewing computers was a major topic... Alas most of the articles are incomplete. They don't give PCB layouts (no big problem) or ROM dumps (very big problem). In a lot of cases you had to contact the author for a programmed EPROM, and that is not likely to be possible some 20-odd years later. The same, alas, applies to many other magazine projects, though. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 16:55:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:55:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: small diskettes In-Reply-To: <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> References: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051211145458.V3959@shell.lmi.net> > >yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's the one! Does this hold the distinction for the smallest floppy > ever used on a production system? How about the removable storage option of the Ipod Flea? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 11 16:59:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:59:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051211145813.H3959@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > and al,15 > add al,90h > daa > adc al,40h > daa > > ...is only 8 bytes. > If DAA were slow, I'd say ditch it. But DAA is only 4 cycles and according to > my real-world 8088 timings (slow night tonight), the DAA approach is only just > a hair slower than the XLAT method. > So I guess there *is* a need for DAA ;-) Howzbout: AND AL, 0Fh DAA ADD AL, 0F0h ADC AL, 40h or: AND AL, 0Fh ADD AL, 0 ADC AL,28h DAA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 17:11:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:11:45 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRC0022BU0P8XJF@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRC0022BU0P8XJF@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439CB231.8030302@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >If I were building TTL again nothng less than 24bits. ;) > > > From the quick note scratching a small Bit Slice 12/24 bit cpu looks rather simple. Two modest sized ALU 12 bit boards and ROM based Control unit. Memory would peg out about 1 meg without a MMU. A 6800/6502 memory cycle would be used, with setup for R/W, VMA FF's from the PROM at about 150 ns giving a 1.5 MHZ memory cycle. >Allison > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 17:13:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:13:31 -0800 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512111513310896.14908857@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 3:28 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I spouted forth: >> Mind you, I'm not even a fan of XLAT, as a simple indexed load is >probably >> faster on the Pentium-class machines. And Jim Leonard replied: >Oh it is, by far. But I love XLAT for 8088-class programming. Often, when we're given an instruction or any other resource, we attempt to incorporate it into a solution automatically. Thus, if I'm doing BCD addition, my thought is that DAA must be part of the answer, since it's in the instruction set and it MUST be there for just such a purpose. It's also true that we use what we're used to. I cannot claim to have ever used a CMPXCHG instruction, although it seems as if it might have some real use--it just never entered my mind to use it. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 11 17:18:25 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:18:25 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRC002HQWOQWHDI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:31:24 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>Henk, >> >>Love the "Blinkenlight project". ;) >> >> >Well I'm not Henk but here is his site. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/ Thanks, should have known as I'ts in my bookmarks as a PDP-11 site of note. Allison From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Dec 11 17:30:33 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:30:33 -0600 Subject: small diskettes In-Reply-To: <20051211145458.V3959@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051211173011.0ca5bdc0@localhost> At 02:55 PM 12/11/2005 -0800, you wrote: > > >yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, >On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > That's the one! Does this hold the distinction for the smallest floppy > > ever used on a production system? > >How about the removable storage option of the Ipod Flea? Does it count if you have to use the special tools to change media? ...the ancient Greeks, wrote in legend of a terrible container in which all the evils of the world were trapped. How prophetic they were. All they got wrong was the name. They called it Pandora's Box, but they meant Baldrick's Trousers. --Blackadder --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 17:46:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:46:21 -0800 Subject: small diskettes In-Reply-To: <20051211145458.V3959@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> <20051211145458.V3959@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512111546210987.14AE97DC@10.0.0.252> On 12/11/2005 at 2:55 PM Fred Cisin opined: >How about the removable storage option of the Ipod Flea? Maybe the iPod Flea-for-iPod Fleas: Big fleas have little fleas Upon their back to bite 'em And little fleas have lesser fleas And so ad infinitum. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 11 18:00:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:00:55 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <439C9F1F.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> <200512110821430030.13178061@10.0.0.252> <439C99FF.6040703@oldskool.org> <439C9F1F.7030306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439CBDB7.2040206@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: >> Oh it is, by far. But I love XLAT for 8088-class programming. > > I thought XLAT was a real hack! It's a 1-byte instruction that replaces AL with its index in a 256-byte table stored in DS:BX and does so in 11 cycles! What's not to like? The closest equivalent would be MOV AL,[BX+SI] which is 3 bytes long, takes 15 cycles, and burns up SI in the process. Today, don't use it. But on 8088, it's just plain *fun* to use. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 11 18:03:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:03:40 -0600 Subject: Keep DAA! (was Re: 8086 bugs) In-Reply-To: <20051211145813.H3959@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512101209110188.0EC16828@10.0.0.252> <20051211042636.RQRD11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512102224410225.10F4E798@10.0.0.252> <439BD81B.7020502@oldskool.org> <20051211145813.H3959@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <439CBE5C.9080807@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>If DAA were slow, I'd say ditch it. But DAA is only 4 cycles and according to >>my real-world 8088 timings (slow night tonight), the DAA approach is only just >>a hair slower than the XLAT method. >>So I guess there *is* a need for DAA ;-) > > > Howzbout: > AND AL, 0Fh > DAA > ADD AL, 0F0h > ADC AL, 40h > > or: > > AND AL, 0Fh > ADD AL, 0 > ADC AL,28h > DAA Both are the same speed and size, and quick timing shows that they are now the same speed as the XLAT method. (I assume that's what you were asking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 11 14:15:48 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <439C9799.6040202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for me as I What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should have been perfect :-) > realize in hindsight that 128k of > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. This the > crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 11 14:26:55 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:26:55 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2247@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <20051212003344.GWDL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Great Dave. > I will soon be picking up the intended floppy disk interface for my 6809 board (Blinkenlight project). > I must definately have a better look at your pages! Your site was already known to me :-) > Perhaps I should not put so much work in my 6809 code, but grab yours. But then I'll ask first! Hi Henk, I've heard about your project, but don't know much about it (Your pages requirement to run code on my machine put me off - even if my browser was modern enough to understand it - which it isn't). I was under the impression that in your project the 6809 performing emulation and front panel control --- Can you boot/run "native" 6809 code in your design? It would be quite neat to see the system running with a front panel. (One of things I always "wanted to do" was build up a front-panel machine around the 09 - just never did). CUBIX no longer has commercial value, and I've made it available for free with no restrictions. I'd appreciate it if you let me know if you use it (or parts of it) in any other published projects, and if so, due credit and possibly a link back to my site would be nice... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Dec 11 19:04:29 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:04:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512111440.jBBEdnnm088797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> When I worked for Zebra Systems in the 1980's, we were selling a Floppy Disk System for the Timex/Sinclair 2068 (which also worked for the Sinclair ZX-Spectrum with a different Adaptor), that was basically a seperate Z-80 Computer with 64k of RAM and could run CP/M in 80 Column Mode on an RGB Monitor plugged into the Controller Unit. At the time, Timex Portugal who made these units... Gave us a choice of 5.25" Disk Drives, 3.5" Disk Drives or 3" Disk Drives made by Amdek. They pushed the Amdek drives the hardest on us. And I BEGGED Stewart to go with either NO Disk drives as we could buy them cheaper in the U.S. and add them to the Controller ourselves... Or, go for 5.25" Drives. For reasons I don't fully understand... Stewart opted for the Amdek 3" Drives. They were plenty reliable, but... We couldn't get media for them from anywhere but Timex Portugal, which meant importing large orders of blank media from overseas. Rather than getting them from a domestic source as we did our 3.5" and 5.25" media for our Coco, Atari-ST, Amiga and other products. To this day, I think we would have sold MANY more units had we gone to another media format than 3" Amdek disks. I still have a couple here with the OS for that system on them. I have a ZX-Spectrum Bus Adapter here, but no drive controller or drives. Al Hartman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 11 22:38:29 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:38:29 -0600 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439CFEC5.2020306@jbrain.com> Madcrow Maxwell wrote: >Frankly, I'm not sure how well this would end up working... Maybe I'm >just bitter because the last "alter-net" I participated in (the C-64 >Q-Link and BBS revival) never really got very strong. Still, the DEC >community might be able to support a small network. You never know. > > I would not be bitter. Q-Link is still going, though it has slumped post Nov 5th. This is understandable, as I have not had much time to devote to it, and the main goal was to be up and operational for the 20th Anniversary. Truly, it needs more work to be a self supporting community. Still, people who are early adopters of stuff like Q-Link need to take a long view of participation. I suspect it will be 6 months before Q-Link starts to support itself with a steady stream of people. jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 11 22:51:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:51:51 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <439D01E7.5020100@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even now >a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k "tiny" model >(Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that ImageDisk, my >Simulators and the various other transfer utilities that I've done are >all .COM files) - I used to think 64k was lots of memory... and I still >do! > > > It still is lots of memory for me,because I am using 16k x ( 4+4+1) static memory. Since I miss ordered the 16k x 4 ram, I will have exactly 64k of memory, I plan about 8 to 16k of ram for the OS and 32k to 48k for user programs if I can ever get the homebrew finished. The 8088 is great for com programs -- my favorite dos editor was T.COM a 4k text editor but right now I am using edit and still running a dos box for real work. :) >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > PS One thing I notice you don't have is any Videotext terminals in your vintage equipment. That was a Candian thing for sure. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 11 23:21:10 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 00:21:10 -0500 Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> Hi Al, I have a couple of Amdisk drives, love the little buggers, yeah the whole 3" drives vs the 3.5"s was weird, its what sank the drives in the long run as Sony really pushed those drive hard and of course Apple's adoption of them into its Mac's in 84' then Atari and Amiga following in 85/86 with their systems using 3.5's and eventually IBM catching up in 87' with its PS/2 line. Curt Al Hartman wrote: >When I worked for Zebra Systems in the 1980's, we were >selling a Floppy Disk System for the Timex/Sinclair >2068 (which also worked for the Sinclair ZX-Spectrum >with a different Adaptor), that was basically a >seperate Z-80 Computer with 64k of RAM and could run >CP/M in 80 Column Mode on an RGB Monitor plugged into >the Controller Unit. > >At the time, Timex Portugal who made these units... >Gave us a choice of 5.25" Disk Drives, 3.5" Disk >Drives or 3" Disk Drives made by Amdek. > >They pushed the Amdek drives the hardest on us. > >And I BEGGED Stewart to go with either NO Disk drives >as we could buy them cheaper in the U.S. and add them >to the Controller ourselves... Or, go for 5.25" >Drives. > >For reasons I don't fully understand... Stewart opted >for the Amdek 3" Drives. > >They were plenty reliable, but... We couldn't get >media for them from anywhere but Timex Portugal, which >meant importing large orders of blank media from >overseas. Rather than getting them from a domestic >source as we did our 3.5" and 5.25" media for our >Coco, Atari-ST, Amiga and other products. > >To this day, I think we would have sold MANY more >units had we gone to another media format than 3" >Amdek disks. > >I still have a couple here with the OS for that system >on them. > >I have a ZX-Spectrum Bus Adapter here, but no drive >controller or drives. > >Al Hartman > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 11 23:53:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:53:56 -0800 Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 12:21 AM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have a couple of Amdisk drives, love the little buggers, yeah the >whole 3" drives vs the 3.5"s was weird, its what sank the drives in the >long run as Sony really pushed those drive hard and of course Apple's >adoption of them into its Mac's in 84' then Atari and Amiga following in >85/86 with their systems using 3.5's and eventually IBM catching up in >87' with its PS/2 line. The discussion of 3.5" floppies probably wouldn't be complete wtihout mentioning HP. What follows is a case of IIRC. Sony had originally brought the 3.5" drives out as 40 track 600 RPM drives.(OAD-1). While impressive with their shorter latency, the 600 RPM drive was not compatible with existing controllers. HP adopted the Sony 3.5" format but standardized on a 300 RPM 80 track drive. Cheers, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 12 00:37:33 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 01:37:33 -0500 Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> Interesting... 600rpm? Wow! Didn't Seagate/Shugart dabble in 3.5 disk drives early on around 83 or 84'ish??? Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/12/2005 at 12:21 AM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >> I have a couple of Amdisk drives, love the little buggers, yeah the >>whole 3" drives vs the 3.5"s was weird, its what sank the drives in the >>long run as Sony really pushed those drive hard and of course Apple's >>adoption of them into its Mac's in 84' then Atari and Amiga following in >>85/86 with their systems using 3.5's and eventually IBM catching up in >>87' with its PS/2 line. >> >> > >The discussion of 3.5" floppies probably wouldn't be complete wtihout >mentioning HP. What follows is a case of IIRC. > >Sony had originally brought the 3.5" drives out as 40 track 600 RPM >drives.(OAD-1). While impressive with their shorter latency, the 600 RPM >drive was not compatible with existing controllers. HP adopted the Sony >3.5" format but standardized on a 300 RPM 80 track drive. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/197 - Release Date: 12/9/2005 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Dec 12 00:56:46 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:56:46 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439D1F2E.9050104@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Did Sinclair use them purely because Amstrad had taken them over (or were >>about to) and Amstrad forced them to use that drive? I remember magazine >>articles around the +3 launch complaining that it didn't have a 3.5" drive. > > > Did Sinclair ever use the 3" drive (or any other floppy?) The Spectrum +3 > was surely late enough to actually be an Amstrad (which would explain the > 3" drive). Not that I'm aware of. The +3 was definitely post-Amstrad >>Actually, I'd followed Sinclair up to that point - it was the fact that the +3 >>had a 'funny' drive which put me off getting one; I held out with my +2 for a > > > I always thought the 3" disk was mechanically superior to the 3.5" one. > Pity more manufacturers didn't use it. Well, there was no crappy flimsy shutter to get ripped off. The single-sided drives used a belt-drive mechanism (the only double-sided drive I have to hand is direct drive but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a belt-driven version) and the belts wore out making them unreliable after a while. Easy to fix though. Gordon. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 12 01:18:42 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 23:18:42 -0800 Subject: VAXstation 4000 vlc default boot Message-ID: What are the proper commands to set, and save, the default boot device for a VAXstation 4000 VLC? Mine keeps defaulting to trying to boot from ethernet. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Dec 12 02:26:13 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:26:13 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2585@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> If you want to go straight to the PDP-11 website, use www.pdp-11.nl It is a faster link too. The "tshaj" link (named after the book written by Jack Vance) is from an ISP that offers cheap (slow) webspace. As written: comments are always welcome! - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: zondag 11 december 2005 23:31 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > > Allison wrote: > > >Henk, > > > >Love the "Blinkenlight project". ;) > > > > > Well I'm not Henk but here is his site. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/ This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Mon Dec 12 02:28:45 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:28:45 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <439C9799.6040202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <439C9799.6040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439D34BD.40102@ais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> (The debug enhancements are brought to you courtesy of the stack >> corruption bug :-). >> >> > and the number 6809 ... > Looking at his home page you got alot more stuff about old machines > including a few 8's 11's and 12's. > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for me as I > realize in hindsight that 128k of > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. This the > crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. Consider memory mapping, e.g. with the already somewhere mentioned 74ls610/611/612/613. At least the 612 is still available from unicornelectronics. Using memory pages is not worse than x86 segments. With some external memory (74F189) it should also fit into a 9572. > Part of the reason I building a 9/18 bit cpu ( If I can ever keep the > same instruction set or bit with -- > next week it could be 12/24 bits using 2901 bit slices rather than the > CPLD's I have ) is that I have > 256k of memory something that I feel is right for a 'small' > computer. With the CPLD's I can run @ What is *right* or *wrong* with a small computer? I think we are meanwhile somewhat "damaged" from the wealth of CPU and memory resources from even mediocre PCs. Small systems are attractive IMHO because they are still manageable by a single person to be designed and built up from the ground. For daily work I use PCs or Macs or alike, but the small system is fun and hobby. I'll never load a modern MS-Word file into such a system, therefore even 256k would be too small. My diploma thesis in the eighties was typesetted on a C64. Generations of adults played with toy trains; the relation to small but handcrafted computers is quite close. > 1.25 MHZ and get the feel for home-brew other than the PC or COCO-3 > options I had at the time. > I did have a COCO-3 but I never did get memory or OS9-II and a HD to > upgrade it to a real machine. A new design will probably contain a compact flash or SD card for external storage; far more space available than required to store all available software for such systems. I have no scruples to deviate from the rules of purity (thou shalt not use modern parts in old computers) there. I'm after all hobbyist, not curator. Holger From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Dec 12 02:53:31 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:53:31 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2586@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello Dave. True, I used JavaScript to display the navigation tree at the left side. But the page describing the home-brew pdp8/e running on 6809 is here: www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html It started with some hardware to connect a (homebrew) console to the serial port of a computer which runs SIMH. With a few changes in SIMH you can have bi-directional communication between SIMH and the console thus give (in this case) the PDP-11 SIMH a "real" console. It does all that a real console also does, hence the project name "RealConsole". Also, check out http://www.noicedebugger.com/index.html if you want to start on 6809. It gives you an "emulator" on your PC, connected to the 6809 target system. The best part is that especially for the 6809, it's free! I asked John, told him what I was doing, and I got a license. You must put some code on the target simple, but it is fairly simple. As the "pdp8/e" is built on the 6809, it can of course run 6809 code. In the SIMH version EPROM is a disassembler and a small BASIC interpreter, as there was room left in the EPROM. The IDE interface (with adapter to put in a CompactFlash Card) is connected to the I/O board, so it is not fast, but gives mass storage. The IDE routines are of course written in 6809 assembler and not pdp8/e code :-) So, the low-level access routines are there as a layer for an OS, etc. Implementing a DOS (FAT-12) would make it possible to connect the CF Card to a PC and get file transfer that way. Pulling out the CF Card, sticking it in the PC etc. was not my idea, I liked a floppy disk better for this job, so I ordered 2793's from bgmicro. Using the pdp8/e design fron panel for the 6809 is possible, but ... there are only 15 Address LEDs (12 plus 3 for EMA), and the other row is 12 LEDs, so the upper 4 would not be used. The rotary knob could be used to display A or B (or DP or CC) but to display X, Y, U, SP, PC you need 16 LEDs. There are just 12 switches, and you could use the SW switch as the 13th, but still, to enter a 16-bit address would be cumbersome. So, the pdp8/e panel is not the best choice, but the implementation -hardware wise- is always possible. Software is what makes it 'tick' :-) and I am sure that's "piece of cake" for you, Dave. Recenty I won an HP2117 console panel and a full 11/70 panel on eBay, and I want to connect those two panels with a Core and I/O Board to SIMH too. Then there is the resurrection of all my PDP-11 (real) machines now that I have finally power in the little museum. It's clear, I have way to many project going ... When I pick up the 6809 stuff, I will certainly take a good look at your code, and mention you on my website. thanks for sharing great stuff! - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield > Sent: zondag 11 december 2005 21:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: CUBIX/6809 updates > > > Great Dave. > > I will soon be picking up the intended floppy disk > interface for my 6809 board (Blinkenlight project). > > I must definately have a better look at your pages! Your site was > > already known to me :-) Perhaps I should not put so much > work in my 6809 code, but grab yours. But then I'll ask first! > > Hi Henk, > > I've heard about your project, but don't know much about it > (Your pages requirement to run code on my machine put me off > - even if my browser was modern enough to understand it - > which it isn't). > > I was under the impression that in your project the 6809 > performing emulation and front panel control --- Can you > boot/run "native" 6809 code in your design? It would be quite > neat to see the system running with a front panel. (One of > things I always "wanted to do" was build up a front-panel > machine around the 09 - just never did). > > CUBIX no longer has commercial value, and I've made it > available for free with no restrictions. > I'd appreciate it if you let me know if you use it (or parts > of it) in any other published projects, and if so, due credit > and possibly a link back to my site would be nice... > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: > www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 06:29:59 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:29:59 +0000 Subject: VAXstation 4000 vlc default boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640512120429x267f0bd1l@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What are the proper commands to set, and save, the default boot > device for a VAXstation 4000 VLC? Mine keeps defaulting to trying to > boot from ethernet. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > If it's the same as the others : set boot xxxx If it's not storing it then the battery may be dead. Dan From cctech at retro.co.za Mon Dec 12 06:42:36 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all >Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, >would we have windows today? It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) W > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 06:50:32 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 07:50:32 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> Wouter wrote: > Hi all > >> Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, >> would we have windows today? > > > It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) Linux came out quite a long time after the 386 came out. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 07:06:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:06:04 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Wouter > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Hi all > >>Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, >>would we have windows today? > >It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) > >W At the time of the 386 there was: CCPM, at least three *nix, OS/2 and DOS. Winders was what, version 1.0? The problem is not that we have windows, thats Apples fault. ;) It's how we arrived at it. Funny with I hear of new OS or a port of an older one the first two questions are can it does it run X and can it network. Networking is not the big deal it used to be and you see everything doing it even minimal machines. Windowing however is never trivial, like a fungus it grows and it eats ram, cpu and everything in sight. I was happy for years running DOS with Norton Commander (midnight commander for the linux user). What I didn't get with windows (V3.1, W9x) was a real multitasking OS. Why? Because DOS wasn't a multitasking OS. There lies the problem. Allison From bvdb at cruzpro.com Sun Dec 11 11:37:05 2005 From: bvdb at cruzpro.com (Bert van den Berg) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:37:05 +1300 Subject: Obscure Fuji Unix Computer Message-ID: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> Hi Dan, I came upon your old post and was wondering if you ever got a response. We have one working and one ocassionally working MCS16F and would love to know more about the operating system. Best Regards, Bert van den Berg bvdb at cruzpro.com Hi Everybody, If you come across the following computer, or know where to find one, or know anything interesting about it, please let me know! Labelled as: Fuji MCS-16F Alleged OS: Unix OS9 Custom User Interface Software: Fuji MCS/2E V3.33 Installed Custom I/O Cards visible on back: 1. VM1161 2. VM1410 3. VM1310 There is one 5-1/4" floppy drive installed. This appears to be a mid-1980's era customized controller, and is being used to control a mid-1980's era Fuji SMT system. The problem is that the system owners are beginning to be very nervous about the long-term feasibility of the computer/controller and are searching for a backup while preparing for a surprisingly expensive software upgrade sometime in the future. Fuji no longer supports the installed software. This is also the type of thing that one may encounter in the usual places... in a dumpster, or in a pile at an auction or, well, you know, where ever. Rest assured that this particular model of obscure computer has some worth left in it, so please let me know if you encounter one! Thanks, Dan M Bellows Falls, Vermont USA From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 12 09:46:53 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:46:53 -0600 Subject: Fwd: unknown data tape In-Reply-To: <0IRC00GMGGYW4ZAF@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRC00GMGGYW4ZAF@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051212094501.04fb77a8@mail> At 11:38 AM 12/11/2005, Allison wrote: > What's >>odd to my ear is that the data seems to be packeted between >>carrier. Might this be someone's custom data, as opposed to >>ordinary program load/save? > >No and yes. Most of the cassette schemes were either FM or FSK >and both required a carrier to establish sync before the data. >there were a quite a few modulation schemes but they can be >described as either frequency shift keyed or phase shift keyed >and in some ways similar. Yes, but as my message stated, and as you can hear in the audio sample the sender provided, this tape has carrier between packets of data, every few seconds. I'm familiar with sync tone before a long block of data, but not this case. - John From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Mon Dec 12 10:00:01 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:00:01 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> Message-ID: <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably about 10 years ago...) Anyone? Please? Thanks, Mark From bob at jfcl.com Mon Dec 12 10:09:13 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 08:09:13 -0800 Subject: VAXstation 4000 vlc default boot In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512120429x267f0bd1l@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006101c5ff36$67120c00$0401010a@jfcl.com> > If it's not storing it then the battery may be dead. The VLCs (and, I think, all the VAXstation-4000s) use a DS1287 RTC chip with an onboard Lithium battery. Just like a real Pee-Cee :-) According to Dallas, they have a rated battery life of 10 years, but I haven't seen any in my VAXes go dead yet. If that's really the problem with yours, then I have some DS12887As if you need one. They're supposed to be backward compatible with the DS1287 which, AFAIK, isn't made anymore. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 10:51:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:51:10 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 Message-ID: <0IRE00EM99GCIX7G@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 > From: Mark Firestone > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:00:01 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to >part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application >on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably >about 10 years ago...) > >Anyone? Please? > >Thanks, > >Mark Use versions up to 6.22 and invoke "setver". Allison From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 12 19:59:26 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:59:26 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: <0IQS00HI0R74GU60@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQS00HI0R74GU60@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439E2AFE.5000009@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: > > Certainly if you can find a BA23 with the rack kit that would be an ideal > solution just make sure it has the PDP-11 backplane (can have a different > one for VAX). Then you can transfer the modules you have to it and have > more usable slots as the backplane is 18 slots (ABAB config). There's > a plus you'll have the distribution board for the in box mounted RX > and RD drives. Can you elaborate on this? I'm running a PDP-11/53 and a PDP-11/83 in BA23s that originally housed MV-IIs. I never knew there's a difference. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 12 11:44:20 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:44:20 -0700 Subject: looking to buy/swap/extort old Bytes, PC mag, PC World... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 10 Dec 2005 18:08:09 -0800. <20051211020809.15311.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20051211020809.15311.qmail at web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > I presently have this in Bytes - all of 1982, half of > 83, 3/4 of 84. Nothing else of note. If theres > particular issues yer looking for, or have stuph yer > willing to unload, please contact. A complete set of BYTE magazines just went up on e-bay... looks pricey, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 12:13:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:13:52 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 4:00 PM Mark Firestone wrote: >I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to >part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application >on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably >about 10 years ago...) I've got MS-DOS and PC-DOS versions going back to 1.0 on file--including the really reprehensible DOS 4.0, but wherein lies the permission to distribute these things? . Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 12:20:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:20:10 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512121020100437.18AA5295@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 8:06 AM Allison wrote: >CCPM, at least three *nix, OS/2 and DOS. Winders was what, version 1.0? Not to mention stuff like PC-MOS (I still have an unopened copy of the thing). Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Dec 12 12:21:35 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:21:35 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212130446.01be0688@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > > > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > From: Wouter > > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > >Hi all > > > >>Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's came out, > >>would we have windows today? > > > >It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) > > > >W For the poster that said Linux was way too late for the Winders 'revolution' (revulsion? ;-) I got my '386 in '90, Linux (and others) were around in 91-92ish, IIRC... >At the time of the 386 there was: >CCPM, at least three *nix, OS/2 and DOS. At least -- and OS/2 was 1) actually decent, and 2) still went nowhere. :-/ > Winders was what, version 1.0? Nah, 2.0. (with sub-flavors of '286 & '386, IIRC). At least by the time 386's became affordable (under $2k) and that was the SX at that. >The problem is not that we have windows, thats Apples fault. ;) And Xerox by proxy... ;-) > It's how we arrived at it. Yup. >Funny with I hear of new OS or a port of an older one the first two questions >are can it does it run X and can it network. Networking is not the big >deal... At first I read that as "unimportant" where I was about to disagree, then I reread it and caught more of the next sentence: >...it used to be and you see everything doing it even minimal machines. That would be me. I just can't seem to live without some form of networking now - and to me, even my 8-bitters seem a little bit "unlivable" because I just can't plug 'em into the network. > Windowing >however is never trivial, like a fungus it grows and it eats ram, cpu and >everything in sight. And yet, this is the "killer app" that I really could not care less about. I actually purchased MultiVue for OS-9 on my CoCo3, and by the time that poor 1.8Mhz 6809 got done multitasking the bejeebers out of the GUI, there wasn't enough left for my apps. Never really cared for a GUI ever since, but I use them when I have to. >I was happy for years running DOS with Norton Commander (midnight commander >for the linux user). Never cared for either one of 'em myself... but that's just me. I still install it on my linux boxen "just in case" tho. > What I didn't get with windows (V3.1, W9x) was a real >multitasking OS. What you didn't get with Winders was a real OS. ;-) Back then, a lot of people said that an OS was only an OS if it could run everything hooked to the computer. Winders (not until 95, or some say NT) couldn't do that. And with my experiences in OS-9, I tended to agree. ;-) > Why? Because DOS wasn't a multitasking OS. There lies the >problem. And yet, for certain things it was very useful. I bought Winders 3.1 (drove 200 miles roundtrip for it) for two reasons: True Type Fonts and a better driver for my Canon BJ-10ex portable inkjet. The documents I could produce were much better than anything I could produce with DOS apps of the time. If people chose Winders solely because they believed it was the best thing available, I'd have no problem with it's current status. It's when it's jammed down peoples' throats thru M$ pressuring computer companies to bundle it with machines (and sometimes even tied to the hardware warranty like on my Fujitsu laptop!) that's most assuredly wrong. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 12 12:23:25 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 11:23:25 -0700 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Dec 2005 10:13:52 -0800. <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512121013520860.18A48FB0 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 12/12/2005 at 4:00 PM Mark Firestone wrote: > > >I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to > >part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application > >on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably > >about 10 years ago...) > > I've got MS-DOS and PC-DOS versions going back to 1.0 on file--including > the really reprehensible DOS 4.0, but wherein lies the permission to > distribute these things? . You might enquire here about legitimate purchasable copies of old versions of DOS: I know he regularly seeks out copies of MS-DOS 6.22 for resale. He may have access to older versions as well. If he does, he will send you original media, etc., not a disk copy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From eelco at huininga.nl Mon Dec 12 13:38:13 2005 From: eelco at huininga.nl (Eelco Huininga) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:38:13 +0100 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <200512121642.jBCGgJGS003166@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512121642.jBCGgJGS003166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <439DD1A5.60005@huininga.nl> > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:35:51 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > >>I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it >>wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I > > > It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb > doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > Interfaces'. Indeed it is. I ran the IEEEFS ROMs which are available at the 'The BBC lives' site through a disassembler and both ROMs have a copyright message saying '(C) Intelligent Interfaces Ltd and Acorn Ltd'. Could you scan the article? I'd be very interested in it! > Anyway, there is a schematic. It's based round a 9914 chip along with the > 75160 and 75162 buffers. There's a 5MHz clock circuit, an address > decoder, a data bus buffer, and the normal circuit to de-glitch the page > select line on the 1MHz bus. That's all. Nothing remotely odd. > > Link S1 selects system controller mode, link S2 selects active pull-ups > on the IEEE488 data lines. I've just finished reverse-engineering the board and it's indeed a very straight-forward design. [snip] > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > can't promise that. I wonder what version you've got. The 0.2 ROM seems like a beta version, with lots of 'unused code' in between the different subroutines, and the 0.5 ROM hasn't got any filesystem support, just support for the OSWORD calls. [snip] > Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of > examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in > this way. I think it was done so the IEEE interface could be accessed as an ordinary file system (file handles &F0-&FF were reserved for IEEEFS IIRC). Cheers, Eelco From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 14:03:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:03:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! Message-ID: <0IRE00E15IC2IZAG@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:59:26 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Allison wrote: > >> >> Certainly if you can find a BA23 with the rack kit that would be an ideal >> solution just make sure it has the PDP-11 backplane (can have a different >> one for VAX). Then you can transfer the modules you have to it and have >> more usable slots as the backplane is 18 slots (ABAB config). There's >> a plus you'll have the distribution board for the in box mounted RX >> and RD drives. > > Can you elaborate on this? > > I'm running a PDP-11/53 and a PDP-11/83 in BA23s that originally >housed MV-IIs. I never knew there's a difference. The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. While the differences are small when used with care they are differnt. For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive cavity however are the same. So if you have a uPDP-11 ba23 you have the disti board and all you need is a 50pin to 50pin to connect that to the RQDXn and the from there the needed (short) cables to the specific drives. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 14:17:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:17:30 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:21:35 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >That would be me. I just can't seem to live without some form of networking >now - and to me, even my 8-bitters seem a little bit "unlivable" because I >just can't plug 'em into the network. Write a stack and go. Seems it's being done even for Trs-80! >>I was happy for years running DOS with Norton Commander (midnight commander >>for the linux user). > >Never cared for either one of 'em myself... but that's just me. I still >install it on my linux boxen "just in case" tho. Beat the tar out of DOSSHELL. >> What I didn't get with windows (V3.1, W9x) was a real >>multitasking OS. > >What you didn't get with Winders was a real OS. ;-) I think I did say that. ;) >And yet, for certain things it was very useful. I bought Winders 3.1 (drove >200 miles roundtrip for it) for two reasons: True Type Fonts and a better >driver for my Canon BJ-10ex portable inkjet. The documents I could produce >were much better than anything I could produce with DOS apps of the time. 3.1 was a nice desktop and the problem was DOS not the desktop (and it was 16bit). As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS apps for that back then. >If people chose Winders solely because they believed it was the best thing >available, I'd have no problem with it's current status. It's when it's >jammed down peoples' throats thru M$ pressuring computer companies to >bundle it with machines (and sometimes even tied to the hardware warranty >like on my Fujitsu laptop!) that's most assuredly wrong. I got into it because tools I wanted to used required it, though they were no better for it. As to the MS pushing it down the throat, yes it's was bad, and they still only got a slap on the wrist. Is winders useful, yep when it's the only way to get what you need. But the jury for the last 15 years says, it sucketh greatly for all thine efforts. Life in a factory town, is windows. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 14:29:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Linux came out quite a long time after the 386 came out. Yes, but several varieties of Unix were already out before the 386, including Xenix (Unix from Microsoft) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 14:50:12 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:50:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Interesting... 600rpm? Wow! Yes, but with a 500K data transfer rate, giving the same "720K" for DS. > Didn't Seagate/Shugart dabble in 3.5 disk drives early on around 83 or > 84'ish??? Shugart Associates. Alan Shugart started Shugart Associates, and produced floppy drives. Then he sold the company to Xerox? Then he started a new company, "Shugart Technology" and produced hard drives. Xerox's lawyers pointed out that they had bought the name "Shugart", so he renamed Shugart Technologies to "Seagate". Moral: don't name your company after yourself, or you could lose ownership of your name when you sell. The earliest Shugart 3.5" diskettes did not have a shutter. Later diskettes had a shutter that required manual opening, but had a spring to slam it shut when you "pinched" the corner. They had an arrow pointing to the correct "pinch" location. Some relatively modern "fully automatic shutter" disks still have that arrow! 'course most folk prob'ly think that it's to tell them which end of the disk to put into the drive. > >>adoption of them into its Mac's in 84' then Atari and Amiga following in > >>85/86 with their systems using 3.5's and eventually IBM catching up in > >>87' with its PS/2 line. January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. Q: Did IBM ever "catch up"? Q: when did Gavilan switch from 3" to 3.5"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 12 14:41:06 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:41:06 GMT Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: PDP-11/73 booting!" (Dec 12, 15:03) References: <0IRE00E15IC2IZAG@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10512122041.ZM2334@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 12 2005, 15:03, Allison wrote: > The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. > While the differences are small when used with care they are differnt. > For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX > one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. > the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive > cavity however are the same. All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the memory. The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 14:51:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:51:49 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> One wonders what the OS landscape would have looked like had MS simply bundled a 32-bit flat-mode DPMI server with MS-DOS when the 386 came out. Would anyone really have preferred developing for the segmented 16-bit model? When MS finally got around to 32-bit support, Win32S was nothing more than a huge hack. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 12 15:08:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:27 +0000 Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Al, On 12/12/05 01:04, "Al Hartman" wrote: > I still have a couple here with the OS for that system > on them. Have you got any pictures of the units? I don't think I've heard of that subsystem at all! Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 15:17:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:17:53 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 12:50 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". >Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. The 720K 3.5" drive was introduced by IBM in 1986 as an option for the standard PC-PC/AT product line. What I recall about the PS/2 was the support for DSHD and DSED 3.5 diskettes. In fact, drivers had been available earlier than PC-DOS 3.2 from third parties for 720K 3.5" drives. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 12 15:21:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:21:20 +0000 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/12/05 20:50, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > Later diskettes had a shutter that required manual opening, but had a > spring to slam it shut when you "pinched" the corner. They had an arrow > pointing to the correct "pinch" location. I was sent a picture of one of those not so long back. I can dig it out if anyone's interested..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 15:20:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:20:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! Message-ID: <0IRE00D1MLXMRI12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:41:06 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Dec 12 2005, 15:03, Allison wrote: > >> The BA23 came with a microPDP-11 backplane or one for the uVAX-II. >> While the differences are small when used with care they are >differnt. >> For the PDP-11 use the MicroPDP11 backplane is desired as the uVAX >> one has three slots that are CD wired for PMI bussed memory. >> the DISK interface and distribution board in the back of the drive >> cavity however are the same. > >All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of >whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one >would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the >microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the >memory. > >The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have >three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the >same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. Ah, but it doesnt agree with mine. You can use the H9278 for Qbus -11 but if you want to maximize the slots there was a differnt early option BA23 that had no CD slots(all were AB serpentine) as none of the processors before the PMI equipped 11/73 used PMI. Early microPDP-11s wer really 11/23Bs. As a result there really were two similar but not exactly the same flavors. I know the gory details as my BA23 uVAX was hacked from the uPDP-11 and I needed a differnt backplane (memory compatability) and the front pannel insert for the drive control was different. At the time I was a Digit so getting the pieces from the systems lab was easy. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 12 15:24:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:24:42 +0000 Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/12/05 19:03, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> Did Sinclair use them purely because Amstrad had taken them over (or were >> about to) and Amstrad forced them to use that drive? I remember magazine >> articles around the +3 launch complaining that it didn't have a 3.5" drive. > > Did Sinclair ever use the 3" drive (or any other floppy?) The Spectrum +3 > was surely late enough to actually be an Amstrad (which would explain the > 3" drive). Nope. It was Microdrives or nothing with Sinclair stuff. Someone, I'm not sure who, did badge a 3.5" drive as a Sinclair unit for the QL but I've no idea if it was Sinclair themselves since the associated controller was a MicroPeripherals design and the casing was identical to at least 2 other controllers I've got downstairs :) > I always thought the 3" disk was mechanically superior to the 3.5" one. > Pity more manufacturers didn't use it. They certainly feel more solid and can take an awful lot more abuse than 3.5" drives; I've never had a disk stick in a 3" drive for example, and when they become unreliable just change the drive belt and you're away again. The Betamax of the floppy drive world. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 15:42:04 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:42:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> > >January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". > >Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 720K 3.5" drive was introduced by IBM in 1986 as an option for the > standard PC-PC/AT product line. What I recall about the PS/2 was the > support for DSHD and DSED 3.5 diskettes. In fact, drivers had been > available earlier than PC-DOS 3.2 from third parties for 720K 3.5" drives. Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" versions of MS-DOS 2.11. 2.11 and 3.31 seem to be the primary versions of MS-DOS that were customizable by OEMs. The "official", "standardized" support of 3.5" 720K in 3.20 was with use of DRIVER.SYS and/or DRIVPARM. DRIVPARM was incompatible with IBM's BIOS, and therefore was undocumented in PC-DOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Dec 12 15:50:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:50:10 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212164838.04f19b00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >When MS finally got around to 32-bit support, Win32S was nothing more than >a huge hack. But then I could play Freecell!!! ;-) I saw a T-shirt in a catalog that was really cute: "Use the best tool for the job: Linux for Servers, Macintosh for Graphics, Windows for Solitare." ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 16:05:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:05:05 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2586@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2586@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <439DF411.3050204@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Using the pdp8/e design fron panel for the 6809 is possible, but ... >there are only 15 Address LEDs (12 plus 3 for EMA), and the other row is >12 LEDs, so the upper 4 would not be used. The rotary knob could be used >to display A or B (or DP or CC) but to display X, Y, U, SP, PC you need >16 LEDs. There are just 12 switches, and you could use the SW switch as >the 13th, but still, to enter a 16-bit address would be cumbersome. >So, the pdp8/e panel is not the best choice, but the implementation >-hardware wise- is always possible. Software is what makes it 'tick' :-) >and I am sure that's "piece of cake" for you, Dave. > > As you all know by now I am building a 9/18 bit cpu. My front panel will be limited to 9 data switches and a address page switch. This lets me access 000.nnn and 777.nnn memory on address load. Since I plan only to use the swr for short programs on page zero and have a bootstrap rom and I/O on the last page this more than ample for me. A similar restricted front panel may be possible as well for the 6809 as data is byte orientated. Ben alias woodelf From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 12 16:01:12 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:01:12 GMT Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: PDP-11/73 booting!" (Dec 12, 16:20) References: <0IRE00D1MLXMRI12@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10512122201.ZM2519@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 12 2005, 16:20, Allison wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > >All the ones I've ever seen in the field are the same regardless of > >whther for microPDP-11 or microVAX. I can't see why the microVAX one > >would be different; the microPDP has the CD slots for PMI but the > >microVAX doesn't care -- it uses over-the-top connections for the > >memory. > > > >The BA23 backplane for a microPDP-11 is an H9278-A and does indeed have > >three slots Q22-CD followed by five serpentine Q22-Q22. That's the > >same as my microVAX. And that agrees with the Tech Manuals I have. > > Ah, but it doesnt agree with mine. You can use the H9278 for Qbus -11 > but if you want to maximize the slots there was a differnt early option > BA23 that had no CD slots(all were AB serpentine) as none of the > processors before the PMI equipped 11/73 used PMI. Early microPDP-11s > wer really 11/23Bs. As a result there really were two similar but > not exactly the same flavors. OK, but that would be unusual, and not exactly standard :-) Was that a protoype? You could certainly use Q22-CD slots for 11/23-compatible memory -- yes, I know the microPDP11/23 is just a KDF11-B with different ROMs -- and I've never seen a BA23 that wasn't 3 x Q22-CD plus 5 x Q22-Q22, which is what the tech manuals and maintenance manuals I have describe. I don't even know of any other 4 x 8 backplane that could fit. > I know the gory details as my BA23 uVAX > was hacked from the uPDP-11 and I needed a differnt backplane > (memory compatability) and the front pannel insert for the drive > control was different. Well if you started with a fully-serpentine Q22-Q22 backplane, the microVAX memory would need it changed, because the cards talk to each other using the CD-interconnect, which I'd forgotten (but not AFAIK for CPU/memory transfers, which are over the top). The front panel, though, is the same except for the badge, everywhere I've seen. The console/SLU panel, the *back* panel, is different, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 16:27:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:27:31 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to >>part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application >>on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably >>about 10 years ago...) > > I've got MS-DOS and PC-DOS versions going back to 1.0 on file--including > the really reprehensible DOS 4.0, but wherein lies the permission to > distribute these things? . MS-DOS was officially end-of-lifed by MS so I don't see the harm. We certainly don't have a problem distributing obscure OSes, tape loaders, and CPM so why should DOS be any different? I think IBM's PC DOS 2000 (I think that's the name) is still current, though. Mark: Email me off-list with how I can get the diskette images to you; I have PC DOS 3.3 in 720K format, perfect for the PS/2 Model 30. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 12 16:31:53 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:31:53 -0800 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: <439BA3CA.2010408@oldskool.org> References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> <439AAA95.6000701@gjcp.net> <439BA3CA.2010408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/10/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > I was always a little disappointed that the 8087 didn't speed up integer > math > any (FDIV was at least 193 cycles, whereas DIV is never more than 162)... > I > could have really used that. It speeds up 32 bit and 64 bit integer math..... Even on newer processors it was floating point was useful for many non-FP things. Desipte intel's documentation to the contrary, the fastest block transfer loop on the (pre-MMX) Pentium was done using FILDQ-FISTPQ. // GCC w/ AT&T Assembly warning!!! inline void copy64(int *p1,int *p2, int n) { asm(" test $1,%2 jz 0f dec %2 movl (%0,%2,4),%%ebx movl %%ebx,(%1,%2,4) 0: shrl %2 dec %2 jl 2f 1: fildq (%0,%2,8) fistpq (%1,%2,8) dec %2 jge 1b 2: " : : "S" (p1), "D" (p2), "c" (n) : "ebx"); } From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 16:30:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:30:22 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439DF9FE.1020100@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One wonders what the OS landscape would have looked like had MS simply > bundled a 32-bit flat-mode DPMI server with MS-DOS when the 386 came out. > Would anyone really have preferred developing for the segmented 16-bit > model? Of course not. But what I really wonder is if IBM had chosen the 68000 instead of the 8086. 32-bit right from the start, and more usuable CPU registers than just "Larry, Moe, and Curly" as a grizzled friend once put it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 16:32:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:32:17 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439DFA71.2080002@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > I was happy for years running DOS with Norton Commander (midnight commander > for the linux user). What I didn't get with windows (V3.1, W9x) was a real > multitasking OS. Why? Because DOS wasn't a multitasking OS. There lies the > problem. To which I answer: Desqview. Desqview on my 386sx made me at least 6 times more productive, especially since bad coding on my part didn't lead to a crash on the computer's part. After that I moved to OS/2 2.x so I could still have multitasking DOS that was even more robust than what Desqview could provide. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 17:01:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:01:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! Message-ID: <0IRE009E7QL92M30@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:01:12 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >OK, but that would be unusual, and not exactly standard :-) Was that >a protoype? Nope. Early production with 11/23B orginally. If you have/had a BA23 DD and printset you find there are a lot of variations some are just mainline and some for specific customers. for example the LS-spec stuff for TELCO. >You could certainly use Q22-CD slots for 11/23-compatible >memory -- yes, I know the microPDP11/23 is just a KDF11-B with >different ROMs -- and I've never seen a BA23 that wasn't 3 x Q22-CD >plus 5 x Q22-Q22, which is what the tech manuals and maintenance >manuals I have describe. I don't even know of any other 4 x 8 >backplane that could fit. Actually there are three that fit and two with the right connector (molex style pins). the CD slots mean nothing if your using quad width memory but it's a big differnce if your using dual width. >Well if you started with a fully-serpentine Q22-Q22 backplane, the >microVAX memory would need it changed, because the cards talk to each >other using the CD-interconnect, which I'd forgotten (but not AFAIK for >CPU/memory transfers, which are over the top). The front panel, >though, is the same except for the badge, everywhere I've seen. The >console/SLU panel, the *back* panel, is different, of course. uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. And of course the uVAXII. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 17:20:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:20:52 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 4:27 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >MS-DOS was officially end-of-lifed by MS so I don't see the harm. We >certainly >don't have a problem distributing obscure OSes, tape loaders, and CPM so >why >should DOS be any different? Well, there is a difference. MS-DOS/PC-DOS can still be run on modern machines--there's no argument that "the hardware to run it doesn't exist any more". And both firms that can claim copyright (good for 95 years) are still around. I'd hate to get a letter from a Microsoft suit saying "cease and desist--and pay us $250,000". Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't legally make copies and distribute an out-of-print literary work without permission, why is there a difference with software? Has anyone asked Microsoft or IBM if it would be okay? Or do we already know that the answer is going to be "no", so we might as well not ask and draw attention to things? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 17:22:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:22:19 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512121522190216.19BEF174@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 1:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" versions of >MS-DOS 2.11. ...and let's not forget a few systems came out with 5.25" 96 tpi drives running MS-DOS 1.25 or earlier. These certainly would support 3.5" 720K drives. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 17:31:02 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:31:02 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 Message-ID: <0IRE006Q7RYOLER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PC-DOS 3.3 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:20:52 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/12/2005 at 4:27 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>MS-DOS was officially end-of-lifed by MS so I don't see the harm. We >>certainly >>don't have a problem distributing obscure OSes, tape loaders, and CPM so >>why >>should DOS be any different? > >Well, there is a difference. MS-DOS/PC-DOS can still be run on modern >machines--there's no argument that "the hardware to run it doesn't exist >any more". And both firms that can claim copyright (good for 95 years) are >still around. I'd hate to get a letter from a Microsoft suit saying "cease >and desist--and pay us $250,000". > >Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't legally make copies and >distribute an out-of-print literary work without permission, why is there a >difference with software? Has anyone asked Microsoft or IBM if it would be >okay? Or do we already know that the answer is going to be "no", so we >might as well not ask and draw attention to things? > >Cheers, >Chuck Exactly! FYI: CP/M does still have a copyright in effect only the license to use and distribute for NON_COMMERCIAL purposes has changed. Thank you Tim Olmstead for persuing this. The bottom like is yes, there is a lot of software that can be copied freely for for hobbiest use but the copyright is still in effect and the license that allows it is now suspended for whatever reasons. Would MS do that with dos up to say 6.22? No idea. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 17:28:23 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:28:23 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212130446.01be0688@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212130446.01be0688@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <439E0797.1010008@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > And yet, for certain things it was very useful. I bought Winders 3.1 > (drove 200 miles roundtrip for it) for two reasons: True Type Fonts and > a better driver for my Canon BJ-10ex portable inkjet. The documents I > could produce were much better than anything I could produce with DOS > apps of the time. You must not have tried Geoworks then ;- I suffered along with Ghostscript as long as I could, personally. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 17:32:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:32:27 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS apps > for that back then. He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about printing, for which he is right on the money. If you used Word Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts your printer supported. If you used Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could use any font you want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 17:39:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:39:06 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, there is a difference. MS-DOS/PC-DOS can still be run on modern > machines--there's no argument that "the hardware to run it doesn't exist > any more". And both firms that can claim copyright (good for 95 years) are > still around. I'd hate to get a letter from a Microsoft suit saying "cease > and desist--and pay us $250,000". > > Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can't legally make copies and > distribute an out-of-print literary work without permission, why is there a > difference with software? Has anyone asked Microsoft or IBM if it would be > okay? Or do we already know that the answer is going to be "no", so we > might as well not ask and draw attention to things? I am not a lawyer, but my father-in-law is, and he summed up Fair Use to me as the following: "If you are not slandering a company or causing them financial harm, you generally don't need to worry." Most companies send cease-and-desist letters first because it costs a LOT less money and time to pay a lawyer to mail a C&D letter than it is to go right to trial. If you get one, you have 24 hours to comply, so just comply. Most of the legal battles with software isn't copyright, it's intellectual propery rights -- two different things. In the case we're talking about, Mark needs DOS 3.3, which he used to own, so that he can get his computer up and running in the proper historical context. This passes not one but TWO clauses of Fair Use: Backup and Educational/Historical research. Believe me, no lawyer would even begin to waste his time on it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 17:40:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:40:58 -0600 Subject: Legacy apps in Windows/OS X was Re: Old MS-DOS & Win Software In-Reply-To: References: <0IR8002W4DMPWHBA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <4399BF29.2030003@jetnet.ab.ca> <439AAA95.6000701@gjcp.net> <439BA3CA.2010408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439E0A8A.5050809@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: >>I was always a little disappointed that the 8087 didn't speed up integer >>math >>any (FDIV was at least 193 cycles, whereas DIV is never more than 162)... >>I >>could have really used that. > > It speeds up 32 bit and 64 bit integer math..... On 8088, not 32-bit; see my previous message for timings. 64-bit, yes. > Even on newer processors it was floating point was useful for many non-FP > things. Desipte intel's documentation to the contrary, the fastest block > transfer loop on the (pre-MMX) Pentium was done using FILDQ-FISTPQ. Ah yes, I almost crapped a brick when I found that out! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 17:50:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:50:17 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS >> apps for that back then. > > > He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about > printing, for which he is right on the money. If you used Word > Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts your printer > supported. If you used Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail > package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could use any font you > want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. But then we have TEX created under a unix system for real work. If Knuth can use it to print "The art of computer programing" you have a good system. GUI's are not the way to print out stuff. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 12 17:52:42 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:52:42 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 References: <0IRE006Q7RYOLER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <009601c5ff77$2d7439f0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 6:31 PM Subject: Re: PC-DOS 3.3 > Exactly! FYI: CP/M does still have a copyright in effect only the license > to use and distribute for NON_COMMERCIAL purposes has changed. > Thank you Tim Olmstead for persuing this. > > The bottom like is yes, there is a lot of software that can be copied freely > for for hobbiest use but the copyright is still in effect and the license > that allows it is now suspended for whatever reasons. > > Would MS do that with dos up to say 6.22? No idea. > > > Allison I don't see MS selling obsolete versions of its OS or allowing others to freely obtain that obsolete OS because it would allow the use of older machines ( and cost MS a new OS sale on a new machine). Are there any commercial uses for CP/M anymore? I would think that some old sales terminals still use DOS as an OS. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 12 17:21:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:21:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 11, 5 09:53:56 pm Message-ID: > The discussion of 3.5" floppies probably wouldn't be complete wtihout > mentioning HP. What follows is a case of IIRC. > > Sony had originally brought the 3.5" drives out as 40 track 600 RPM > drives.(OAD-1). While impressive with their shorter latency, the 600 RPM Hmmm.. The original Sony drives were certainly 600 rpm units, but I thought 80 cylinder ones were there from the start. There are 40 cylinder 3.5" drives (67.5 tpi), in fact I've just been working on one (the Epson PF10 floppy drive unit for the PX8). I haev never seen a 600 rpm 40 cylinder unit, though > drive was not compatible with existing controllers. HP adopted the Sony > 3.5" format but standardized on a 300 RPM 80 track drive. No. NP used 600 rpm drives. Both the 'original' full height ones with a 26 pin connector, as used in the 9121, 9122, 9123, 9133, 9114A, etc and the half-helght ones used in the 9153 and 9114B. I am absolutely sure of this (darn it, enough of them have passed my bench :-)). Remember that HP drive untis were intellegent, they included the controller, and communicated to the host via an HPIB or HPIL link. It didn't actually matter what speed the disk turned at (the bit density is the same on an HP 600 rpm disk as on a normal PC disk). IIRC, HP only used 70 cylinders on single-sided units and 77 cylinders on double sided units for user data. The remainder were used to replace bad tracks (!). This was handled by the drive unit (HP's controller board) rather than the host. I suspect that all HP PC clones had 300 rpm drives, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 12 17:22:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:22:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3.25" diskettes In-Reply-To: <439D1F2E.9050104@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 12, 5 06:56:46 am Message-ID: > > > > I always thought the 3" disk was mechanically superior to the 3.5" one. > > Pity more manufacturers didn't use it. > > Well, there was no crappy flimsy shutter to get ripped off. The > single-sided drives used a belt-drive mechanism (the only double-sided _Amstrad_ used belt-driven drives, but the Hitachi drives I used (both single and double head) were direct-drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 12 17:43:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:43:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439DD1A5.60005@huininga.nl> from "Eelco Huininga" at Dec 12, 5 08:38:13 pm Message-ID: > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > > Interfaces'. > > Indeed it is. I ran the IEEEFS ROMs which are available at the 'The BBC > lives' site through a disassembler and both ROMs have a copyright > message saying '(C) Intelligent Interfaces Ltd and Acorn Ltd'. > Could you scan the article? I'd be very interested in it! Now where am I going to find a repairable scanner and something to connect it to? > > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > > can't promise that. > I wonder what version you've got. The 0.2 ROM seems like a beta version, > with lots of 'unused code' in between the different subroutines, and the > 0.5 ROM hasn't got any filesystem support, just support for the OSWORD > calls. I will try to find it. It will take some time, though.... > > [snip] > > > Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of > > examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in > > this way. > > I think it was done so the IEEE interface could be accessed as an > ordinary file system (file handles &F0-&FF were reserved for IEEEFS IIRC). Yes, but why not do a modified version of the HP method (at least on older machines). Have a file called 'DATA' that talks to the currently addressed talker/listener. And send the appropriate commands to the 'COMMAND' file to address devices. I think that would have been a lot clearer. -tony From generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 17:56:12 2005 From: generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:56:12 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I've been observing this discussion with some interest. Was not the first computer with a 3.5" floppy drive the Sony SMC-70? It is if you believe this: http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=362/ . I've just obtained 2 of these (actually one is a 70g) and something else called the Mindset. My understanding is the person who originally owned this equipment used them for video editing and such. All three systems along with some other items were won at a local auction, all thrown in a box, without any manuals or software. Is there anyway of getting official documentation or software for any of these machines? Tom Hudson Rossiter, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 12 18:12:06 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:12:06 -0700 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:52:42 -0500. <009601c5ff77$2d7439f0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: In article <009601c5ff77$2d7439f0$0500fea9 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Are there any commercial uses for CP/M anymore? I would think that some old > sales terminals still use DOS as an OS. The vendor I mentioned earlier gets copies of MS-DOS 6.22 for resale to a vendor of medical devices. It seems that its more cost effective to secure errant (though legit w/seal of authenticity and all) copies of MS-DOS 6.22 than it is to port the application to another OS and then get everything re-certified via the FDA (medical device regulation is particularly onerous apparently). So yes, there are things that are still using MS-DOS 6.22 and for good (economic) reasons. I think that these copies of MS-DOS 6.22 are keeping his store alive :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Dec 12 18:18:50 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:18:50 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212191304.04fc6598@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about printing, >>for which he is right on the money. If you used Word Perfect 5 for DOS, >>you were limited to the fonts your printer supported. If you used >>Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or >>Win 3.1, you could use any font you want and the print subsystem would >>just rasterize it as graphics. Bingo. >But then we have TEX created under a unix system for real work. I had to drive 100 miles one-way to find Windows... I would have had to drive 350 miles one-way to find a copy of a much costlier Unix. Tough to justify that cost, even for a "real OS." And with what SCO is doing now, I'd have felt just as dirty giving them money as M$, at this point. ;-) >If Knuth can use it to print "The art of computer programing" you have a >good system. >GUI's are not the way to print out stuff. It is, if that's all you have available. Just because I didn't like it, doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to make use of what's available. And compared to the tools for DOS and CoCo3 OS-9, I could typeset much nicer documents. I could typeset nicer documents *yet* on a CompuGraphic PowerView 10 w/an 8216 optical typesetter, but I didn't have the $15K necessary to purchase one of those, either. (But at least I wouldn't have to drive far -- that's what I used whilst I worked at a printshop as a graphic artist / typesetter. And it's an on-topic system, too! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 12 18:20:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:20:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRD00DZUYZZGZAA@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051212162012.F54336@shell.lmi.net> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/MS-DOS has a few inaccuracies. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 12 18:10:56 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:10:56 GMT Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: PDP-11/73 booting!" (Dec 12, 18:01) References: <0IRE009E7QL92M30@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10512130010.ZM2780@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 12 2005, 18:01, Allison wrote: > uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) > is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. > And of course the uVAXII. 11/73 doesn't need over-the-top and has no provision for it. As an 11/73 it's supposed to be used with normal QBus memory, but all will work with PMI memory (a la 11/83, in fact they're the same board). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 18:25:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:25:42 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 5:39 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I am not a lawyer, but my father-in-law is, and he summed up Fair Use to >me as >the following: "If you are not slandering a company or causing them >financial >harm, you generally don't need to worry." Well, US Copyright Law and your father-in-law are in substantial disagreement about Fair Use. However, if you're certain about your legal position regarding Fair Use, why not drop a note to Microsoft and get their okay? If you don't want to read my ranting, you can stop reading right here. I confess right now that I've seen products arbitrarily classified as "abandonware" and distributed over the net without so much as a note to the owner saying "would it be okay if we did this?"--and it disturbs me greatly--and in some cases, makes my blood boil. This question comes up all the time on the music-oriented lists and the rationalizations are nothing short of amazing. 'Well, it's out of print, so I can copy it" Or "It's for use in a school, so it's fair use". Or "we're a 501(c)3 nonprofit, so we can copy things freely". Or (and I've got the correspondence to prove this one) "We're a church doing the Lord's work, so we shouldn't have to pay for music we use in worship services." US Copyright Law defines Fair Use rather narrowly and, contrary to your father-in-law's legal opinion, does not mandate that a copyright holder demonstrate financial loss or harm from an infringement as part of a claim. Neither does it require a copyright holder to vigorously defend a copyright. . Theft of copyright is a felony in the US, punishable by fine and imprisonment. Read all about it here: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/ It would not surprise me if IBM or MIcrosoft had a few OEM contracts still in force that enabled the OEM to make a copy of DOS 3.3 for use, provided a royalty is paid. What I'm saying here is for works authored after 1978. Prior to that time, there were additional requirements regarding registration and publication and the statement of copyright on the work. None of that is necessary for works created after 1978--thus, if you're not sure, it's safest to assume that a work is copyrighted. With apology, I'll step off the soapbox now. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 18:31:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:31:00 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512121631000846.19FDD517@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 6:56 PM Tom Hudson wrote: >I've been observing this discussion with some interest. Was not the first >computer with a 3.5" floppy drive the Sony SMC-70? It is if you believe >this: http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=362/ . Well, I've got a BIOS listing for a luggable Z80 CP/M system by a firm called Preis that used 3.5" SS Sony drives that has a date of 1981. I was asked to add support for an Evotek hard drive to it. Wish I still had the machine. Cheers, Chuck From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Dec 12 18:34:16 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:34:16 -0600 Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned Message-ID: Hello! I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Julian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 19:09:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:09:58 -0700 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >What I'm saying here is for works authored after 1978. Prior to that time, >there were additional requirements regarding registration and publication >and the statement of copyright on the work. None of that is necessary for >works created after 1978--thus, if you're not sure, it's safest to assume >that a work is copyrighted. > > But the problem is not a copywrite , but the copywrite being held too long. Take DOS for example -- true the copywrite is in effect, but there is no law to say after XYZ years of inactivity it becomes public domain. That has happend in the past but now no more. Look what would happen if say Disney found you pirated 2000 thousand leages under the sea and showed the movie in the public. Odly the book had no movie copywrite so Disney could make money off it. The grey area here is the item is still in demand but it is not being produced, thus theft or duplication of the product is required. PS. Anybody with the dos game "True Love" still can find people to buy it. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 12 19:15:04 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 01:15:04 GMT Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned In-Reply-To: "Wolfe, Julian " "M8189 boot rom need burned" (Dec 12, 18:34) References: Message-ID: <10512130115.ZM2946@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 12 2005, 18:34, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest > (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP > and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > > Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is > NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. You do realise that all the later (EP)ROMs (which are actually for a microPDP-11/23, though it's the same CPU board) are 8Kx8 not 2Kx8 and moreover they're an unusual type (MCM68766) that has 24 pins, not 28 pins like most 8Kx8 EPROMs? If you can get suitable EPROMs, you need to move the link that connects J23-J24 so it connects J22-J23 instead. All microPDP-11/23 bootroms include an MSCP bootstrap. You only need the latest ones (-BJ) if you really need to boot a TK50 (not just read/write it). Do you do that often? Otherwise -BE or -BF are good and common enough that you might find a set. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From sieler at allegro.com Mon Dec 12 19:27:21 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:27:21 -0800 Subject: HP 735 Workstation fun. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <439DB2F9.13861.14B89861@localhost> Re: > I think the last version to run on the 700 series was 10.20, but I may be > mistaken. eBay often has media for 11.0, but the price is astronomical. We have a 9000/705 running HP-UX 11.00. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 19:36:17 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:36:17 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old PC stuff Message-ID: <20051212203617.5246f7bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Today at work I was given another haul of old stuff retired from the lab. I got a whole pile of 8088 IBM machines. Actually, there were some XT clones as well, which I didn't keep as units, but did salvage the cards and drives out of. >From one of the XT clones I got something I have heard of but never seen before: an 8-bit controller card for IDE drives. It has a BIOS extension on it and some other chips, I haven't studied it thorougly yet. I kept intact the IBM machines, two complete PC-XT systems and two PCs. I believe both XTs have the 64-256 motherboard. Most of the boards in these systems are IBM originals, they all have 'AST Six-Pack' style (not sure of the brand) memory and I/O expansion. If I ever get the time (hmmm..) I may build a cassette drive cable and explore cassette basic on one of the PCs (stripped down, of course, to remove the 'optional' floppy controller.) I am now the sole person in the lab still using the last two PC-XTs (and a Commodore SX64) for actual data acquisition and test purposes. I was able to grab and consolidate ALL the good parts, so the machine in the lab I primarily use now has a special drive controller (with BIOS extension) in it, so that the B: drive is a 1.44M 3-1/2" drive. I also got an IBM CGA monitor in the haul today, and a number of real IBM PC keyboards. There are also some 'third party' switchable XT-AT keyboards. If anybody on the list needs a 'third party' XT keyboard for the cost of shipping, drop me a note, I will give away up to three of the ones I got today (and they continue to grow harder to find) to the first three people interested. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 19:42:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:42:51 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051212204251.42420685.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for > > me as I > > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should > have been perfect :-) > > > realize in hindsight that 128k of > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. This > > the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. > > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! > 64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature 'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' you requested last month uses.") From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 12 19:46:37 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old PC stuff References: <20051212203617.5246f7bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00c901c5ff87$0ebfdd10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 8:36 PM Subject: Good haul of old PC stuff > Today at work I was given another haul of old stuff retired from > the lab. I got a whole pile of 8088 IBM machines. Actually, > there were some XT clones as well, which I didn't keep as units, > but did salvage the cards and drives out of. > > >From one of the XT clones I got something I have heard of but > never seen before: an 8-bit controller card for IDE drives. It > has a BIOS extension on it and some other chips, I haven't studied > it thorougly yet. > > I kept intact the IBM machines, two complete PC-XT systems and two > PCs. I believe both XTs have the 64-256 motherboard. Most of the > boards in these systems are IBM originals, they all have 'AST > Six-Pack' style (not sure of the brand) memory and I/O expansion. > If I ever get the time (hmmm..) I may build a cassette drive cable > and explore cassette basic on one of the PCs (stripped down, of > course, to remove the 'optional' floppy controller.) > > I am now the sole person in the lab still using the last two > PC-XTs (and a Commodore SX64) for actual data acquisition and test > purposes. I was able to grab and consolidate ALL the good parts, > so the machine in the lab I primarily use now has a special drive > controller (with BIOS extension) in it, so that the B: drive is a > 1.44M 3-1/2" drive. > > I also got an IBM CGA monitor in the haul today, and a number of > real IBM PC keyboards. There are also some 'third party' > switchable XT-AT keyboards. If anybody on the list needs a 'third > party' XT keyboard for the cost of shipping, drop me a note, I > will give away up to three of the ones I got today (and they > continue to grow harder to find) to the first three people > interested. A place I worked at untill the 1999 used an old XT to run software to check the serial ports of temperature controllers. Generally if the device does not change, companies tend to use the same old equipment for QC. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 19:53:55 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 01:53:55 +0000 Subject: 3.25 diskettes In-Reply-To: <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> References: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/11/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2005 at 7:48 PM Chris M wrote: > > >yup, the 2inch drives were built into the Minisport, > >which had some pretty nifty firmware feature, which > >was able to exert control of the command line of > >another computer connected by a serial cable. > > That's the one! Does this hold the distinction for the smallest floppy > ever used on a production system? Possibly equal... the Canon Ion digital camera (don't recall the model number offhand) used 2" floppies too. I remember being utterly astonished at the microengineering that had gone into that drive mechanism (the entire mechanism opened up and dropped down when you ejected the disk). From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 19:59:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:59:20 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old PC stuff Message-ID: <0IRE00JQXYTTQM90@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Good haul of old PC stuff > From: "Teo Zenios" > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:46:37 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >A place I worked at untill the 1999 used an old XT to run software to check >the serial ports of temperature controllers. Generally if the device does >not change, companies tend to use the same old equipment for QC. The last place I was at used a pair of them for test and data logging of product and another to control ovens used to bake out parts. They are still in service. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 20:00:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:00:54 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRE00MSRYWF15G2@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:32:27 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS apps >> for that back then. > >He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about printing, for >which he is right on the money. If you used Word Perfect 5 for DOS, you were >limited to the fonts your printer supported. If you used Geoworks, or >Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could >use any font you want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. Ah yes, then again I was using other stuff to do that. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 19:59:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:59:34 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051212205934.4a8003da.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 12:50:12 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Interesting... 600rpm? Wow! > > Yes, but with a 500K data transfer rate, giving the same "720K" > for DS. > > > Didn't Seagate/Shugart dabble in 3.5 disk drives early on > > around 83 or 84'ish??? > > Shugart Associates. > Alan Shugart started Shugart Associates, and produced floppy > drives. Then he sold the company to Xerox? > Then he started a new company, "Shugart Technology" and produced > hard drives. Xerox's lawyers pointed out that they had bought > the name "Shugart", so he renamed Shugart Technologies to > "Seagate". Moral: don't name your company after yourself, or you > could lose ownership of your name when you sell. > > The earliest Shugart 3.5" diskettes did not have a shutter. > Later diskettes had a shutter that required manual opening, but > had a spring to slam it shut when you "pinched" the corner. > They had an arrow pointing to the correct "pinch" location. > Some relatively modern "fully automatic shutter" disks still > have that arrow! 'course most folk prob'ly think that it's to > tell them which end of the disk to put into the drive. > > > > >>adoption of them into its Mac's in 84' then Atari and Amiga > > >following in >85/86 with their systems using 3.5's and > > >eventually IBM catching up in >87' with its PS/2 line. > January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". > Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. > Just today, after installing a BIOS-extending floppy controller in a PC-XT at work, I had to put a 'drivparm=' line in the config.sys file of the 360K boot floppy (the machine in question has a 360K A: and a 1.44M B:, and no hard drive) to get the system to properly recognize the 1.44 drive. The system in question runs MS-DOS 3.21. The DOS (3.21) Reference manual I looked in had a switch for drivparm to directly support 720K and 1.2M floppies but none for 1.44M floppies, so I had to define head/cylinder/sector counts instead. I also had to pull up a web page to remember how to set switches 7 and 8 on the motherboard DIP switch for two floppies (the machine previously has had just the one 360K floppy. Boot, load the program, replace program disk with data disk, and go) Probably by upgrading to DOS 3.3 I could use a simplified drivparm line in config.sys, but I haven't seen a legal licensed copy of MS-DOS 3.3 anywhere in the lab. And 3.2 works fine. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 20:01:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:01:16 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439E2B6C.6070404@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, US Copyright Law and your father-in-law are in substantial I don't usually like disagreeing with people I admire and look up to, but I suggest you actually read the Fair Use clause: PER TITLE 17 - UNITED STATES CODE - SECTION 107 ? 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include ? (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. > However, if you're certain about your legal > position regarding Fair Use, why not drop a note to Microsoft and get their > okay? The whole point is that you don't need to. > 'Well, it's out of print, > so I can copy it" False. > "It's for use in a school, so it's fair use". Depends on context, but mostly true. "...teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use)...nonprofit educational purposes..." > "we're a 501(c)3 nonprofit, so we can copy things freely". False. > "We're a church doing the Lord's > work, so we shouldn't have to pay for music we use in worship services." Now that one is just twisted :-) and obviously false. > US Copyright Law defines Fair Use rather narrowly and, contrary to your > father-in-law's legal opinion, does not mandate that a copyright holder > demonstrate financial loss or harm from an infringement as part of a claim. Obviously, but that doesn't mean they'd have a case. > With apology, I'll step off the soapbox now. You're certainly entitled :-) But please see my valid points above. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 20:02:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:02:33 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > The grey area here is the item is still in demand but it is not being > produced, thus theft It's not really grey, it's just wrong :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 20:02:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:02:54 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051212210254.56e5f25d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:17:53 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/12/2005 at 12:50 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". > >Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. > > The 720K 3.5" drive was introduced by IBM in 1986 as an option > for the standard PC-PC/AT product line. What I recall about the > PS/2 was the support for DSHD and DSED 3.5 diskettes. In fact, > drivers had been available earlier than PC-DOS 3.2 from third > parties for 720K 3.5" drives. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > The IBM PC-Convertible exclusively uses 720K 3-1/2" diskettes. And the face of the Convertible floppy drives have the appearance (for an Apple machine, they call it 'trade dress') of the PS/2 line. It's a real shame the Convertible doesn't support 1.44M floppies, like the Toshiba 1000sx. That would make it a much more current and usable machine. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 20:05:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:05:28 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051212210528.486dc076.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 13:42:04 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > > >January 1986, PC-DOS 3.20 supported 720K 3.5". > > >Later in 1986, PC-DOS 3.30 supported 1.4M. > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The 720K 3.5" drive was introduced by IBM in 1986 as an option > > for the standard PC-PC/AT product line. What I recall about > > the PS/2 was the support for DSHD and DSED 3.5 diskettes. In > > fact, drivers had been available earlier than PC-DOS 3.2 from > > third parties for 720K 3.5" drives. > > Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" > versions of MS-DOS 2.11. > > 2.11 and 3.31 seem to be the primary versions of MS-DOS that > were customizable by OEMs. > > > The "official", "standardized" support of 3.5" 720K in 3.20 was > with use of DRIVER.SYS and/or DRIVPARM. DRIVPARM was > incompatible with IBM's BIOS, and therefore was undocumented in > PC-DOS. > I installed a drivparm line in the config.sys file of a true-blue IBM PC-XT just this morning with good results. However, it is a machine with a BIOS extension on the controller card. And it's running MS-DOS. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 20:06:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:06:59 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: >> He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about >> printing, for which he is right on the money. If you used Word >> Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts your printer >> supported. If you used Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail >> package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could use any font you >> want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. > > But then we have TEX created under a unix system for real work. That's a bit elitist. Some of us weren't that lucky. > GUI's are not the way to print out stuff. GUI is irrelevant. When I was limited to a single font and 80-char/66-line output -- on a device capable of 200 DPI output -- I tore my hair out. It's not my fault the only decent low-cost print systems were attached to a GUI. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 20:08:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:04 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512121522190216.19BEF174@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121522190216.19BEF174@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051212210804.4b4a22af.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:22:19 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/12/2005 at 1:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" > >versions of MS-DOS 2.11. > > ...and let's not forget a few systems came out with 5.25" 96 tpi > drives running MS-DOS 1.25 or earlier. These certainly would > support 3.5" 720K drives. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and maybe even impossible). From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 20:09:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:09:03 -0600 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212210528.486dc076.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <20051212210528.486dc076.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <439E2D3F.3020902@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > I installed a drivparm line in the config.sys file of a true-blue > IBM PC-XT just this morning with good results. However, it is a > machine with a BIOS extension on the controller card. And it's > running MS-DOS. What does your CONFIG.SYS line look like? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 20:13:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:13:57 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <20051212211357.6124291a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 Wouter wrote: > Hi all > > >Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's > >came out, would we have windows today? > > It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) > > W > It was also called Coherent, and OS/2. And DesqView (and in particular DesqView/X, which has almost completely disappeared from history) also made a good run for it. And part of the reason we have Windoze now is that Apple drove all the 'small players' out of the GUI market with litigation. They 'plowed the field' for Microsoft, so to speak. Linux didn't really happen along in any big way until the '386 systems were very mature (and actually, a big part of Linux 'taking hold' for a number of us was when the first generation '386 machines became 'spare' enough to be almost free, and hence perfect for putting experimental OSes on). > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 20:17:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:17:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! Message-ID: <0IRE00F5TZO9O3Z2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-11/73 booting! > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:10:56 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Dec 12 2005, 18:01, Allison wrote: > >> uVAX-II and 11/73B need/require over the top. 11/23B (and 11/73A) >> is strictly Q22. I happen to have the earlier non-pmi 11/73. >> And of course the uVAXII. > >11/73 doesn't need over-the-top and has no provision for it. As an >11/73 it's supposed to be used with normal QBus memory, but all will >work with PMI memory (a la 11/83, in fact they're the same board). > I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am using the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that uses the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU. I have every Qbus PDP-11 from the LSI-11/03 through the 11/73. Here in the greater Maynard area we get to see more of the bits that DEC sold. Then again I got the option during the great bleed to purchase my underdesk systems for a token amount as we all left that facility. Many others did as well. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 12 20:23:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:23:38 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E2B6C.6070404@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E2B6C.6070404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051212201316.042a3a30@mail> At 08:01 PM 12/12/2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >I don't usually like disagreeing with people I admire and look up to, but I suggest you actually read the Fair Use clause: Ah, Grasshopper. The real law is a combination of raw regulations plus their interpretation by the courts. Father-in-law was giving advice about how to avoid trouble, an even more simplified form of the real law. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 20:25:18 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:25:18 -0700 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > > It's not really grey, it's just wrong :-) OK, what if I want a copy of "The thinker" to stand in my Garden. Now if I hire a guy to carve one out, is that breaking copywrite? I can't really ask the man that carved it for permission? Ben alias woodelf PS. to be fair, any women wanting to carve a statue can do so too! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 20:29:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:29:22 -0500 Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned Message-ID: <0IRF009U807VOYEC@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned > From: "Wolfe, Julian " > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:34:16 -0600 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Hello! > >I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest >(KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP >and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > >Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is >NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. > >Can anyone help me out? > >Thanks >Julian > The part would ahve a 23-class part number for a DEC version with code in it. I'll have to pull a board to read the part number and verify if DEC used 2716, or 2764s for their part. My DOCs show the default configuration was for DEC parts in the 2764 or the motorola 8k family. Also there are two differnt rom set and only one (KDF11BF) does MSCP boot. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 20:33:47 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:33:47 -0700 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439E330B.9070000@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > > GUI is irrelevant. When I was limited to a single font and > 80-char/66-line output -- on a device capable of 200 DPI output -- I > tore my hair out. It's not my fault the only decent low-cost print > systems were attached to a GUI. Well I was using a nice slow B&W HP inkjet printer I know what you mean. I finaly upgraged to a low cost $200 Can laser printer - Lexmark E232. Now that a has a replaceble toner thingy that leagaly forces you if use your printer, to only mail the empty toner back to them. I say if I want to I can refill it, forget that stupid laywer stuff. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 20:34:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:34:49 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512121834490638.1A6F2E5C@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 6:09 PM woodelf wrote: >But the problem is not a copywrite , but the copywrite being held too long. >Take DOS for example -- true the copywrite is in effect, but there is no >law to say after XYZ years of inactivity it becomes public domain. That has happend in >the past but now no more. Current copyright for most works after 1978 is 95 years. Before that, copyright was extended to 75 years. Yes, this is a far cry from the old 28+28 rule, but this is our Congress at work as well as the WTO (the 1978 revision is part of the Uruguay Round Sessions of GATT). What this means that after the prescribed period, works enter the public domain. Activity has nothing to do with copyright, nor has it ever had anything to do with copyright. For example, music published before October 1923 is now in the public domain. However, because of the Sonny Bono (he was already dead when it was passed) Copyright Extension Act, music published in 1924 will not enter the public domain until 2019. Mary Bono publicly stated that Sonny wanted perpetual copyright, but that appears to be unconstitutional. This is the way things are and the extensions have survived a Supreme Court challenge. If you want them changed, lobby your lawmakers. BTW, this has nothing to do with that other bit of legislation, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (DMCA) which adds further restrictions as to what can be done with copyrighted material. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 20:40:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:40:17 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRF008VD0Q1FHE0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:04 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 15:22:19 -0800 >"Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> On 12/12/2005 at 1:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >Numerous machines came out with 3.5" drives using "customized" >> >versions of MS-DOS 2.11. >> >> ...and let's not forget a few systems came out with 5.25" 96 tpi >> drives running MS-DOS 1.25 or earlier. These certainly would >> support 3.5" 720K drives. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and >maybe even impossible). I have MSdos on 8" unknown format but likely something native to a Compupro DISK1A with a CPU85/88 as the engine. I also have a two edition article describing what it would take to put MSDOS (V3.3!) on a NON-PC 8088 system. Supporting 8" is not hard you need 250 and 500khz data rates same as 5.25 360k and 3.5" 720k formats. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 12 20:44:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:44:38 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E330B.9070000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> <439E330B.9070000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439E3596.8030006@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Well I was using a nice slow B&W HP inkjet printer I know what you mean. I was actually referring to the Epson FX-80 days :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 20:55:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:55:48 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E2B6C.6070404@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E2B6C.6070404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512121855480912.1A826527@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 8:01 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, US Copyright Law and your father-in-law are in substantial > >I don't usually like disagreeing with people I admire and look up to, but >I >suggest you actually read the Fair Use clause: Jim, as much as we'd all like to believe that Congress makes the law, it's not strictly true. The courts do. I've read the Fair Use Clause and also know that it's the source of incredible bounty for copyright lawyers. The LOC has a section on Fair Use (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html) which essentially says that the scope of Fair Use has been considerably narrowed by legislation and the courts, to the extent that the LOC states: "The distinction between ?fair use? and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission." "The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission. When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of ?fair use? would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered ?fair? nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney." Stanford has a good summary of Fair Use guidelines at http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a.htm l As you can see, it's not as simple a matter as section 107 would seem to imply. You can't simply use copyrighted material for educational use without limit for educational use, for example; else why purchase textbooks (or operating systems)? Universities have lost piles of cash and teachers, jobs because of too-liberal interpretation of Fair Use. The LOC has it right: Ask first. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 12 20:54:42 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:54:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512130257.VAA16541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But the problem is not a [copyright], but the [copyright] being held > too long. Take DOS for example -- true the [copyright] is in effect, > but there is no law to say after XYZ years of inactivity it becomes > public domain. Actually, there is. (At least in the USA, which I assume is the jurisdiction you're talking about.) The reason copyright has effectively become perpetual is that various interests have managed to arrange for the sunset time on copyright to increase by at least one year per year. Just another example of how broken intellectual property law is. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 20:58:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:58:35 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212210804.4b4a22af.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121522190216.19BEF174@10.0.0.252> <20051212210804.4b4a22af.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512121858350900.1A84F16B@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 9:08 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and >maybe even impossible). You may want to look at what the NEC APC did for MS-DOS and 8" drives. I think I've got a couple of original 8" MS-DOS diskettes for the APC, but I don't recall what version. Cheers, Chuck From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Dec 12 21:22:25 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:22:25 -0500 Subject: Timing of PDP-11 Instructions In-Reply-To: <0IQS007TFVFE8J56@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IQS007TFVFE8J56@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439E3E71.5060607@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Timing of PDP-11 Instruction >> >>I am still not able to figure out why the FORTRAN 77 >>subroutine has different timing when the destination >>address is moved from PAR0 to PAR1 under RT-11 under >>both E11 and a real PDP-11/73. Cache has been suggested, >>so I will attempt the calculation with a PDP-11/23 >>which does not have any cache. >> >> >Cache is half the answer. The other half is when you hit the bus >on a cache miss two things have to happen. You have to do bus >transactions which are very slow compared to cache and you have to >refill the cache. IF there is any MMU action required >(pagein/pageou) you add that overhead as well. > >Remember the PDP11 is 16 bits. Any addressing outside ~28kwords >is going to involve a MMU operation. That a lot of register >access and it's costly(in time), more so if you need to move >the Dmap in an I&D machine (11/73). The reason for that is those >actions lie inside the core OS and require system calls to process. >E11 is just being faithful to the core PDP11 so I'd expect similar >if not exact same behavour. You didn't say RTll SJ or FB. > > Jerome Fine replies: Here is an update on the timing problem. I just finished attempting to write a test program to reproduce the problem. Earlier, I had discovered a program BUG which I initially though had created the conditions which caused the situation with respect to the PAR0 / PAR1 timing problem to occur. Well, I just discovered a SECOND program BUG 2 in the same loop (just two lines above). I used "Cmp R1, at 4(R5)" and it should have been "Cmp R1,4(R5)" instead. I don't think it is worth any additional effort at this point based on just 10 minutes of attempting to understand the overall interaction. However, I am reasonably confident that the timing problem had NOTHING to do with a PAR0 / PAR1 address, but rather just the arithmetic which resulted from an "interesting" set of conflicts due to both bugs. Over the past 45 years, I thought I had found a hardware problem 3 or 4 times, but the difficulty was always a really difficult to find (translation - dumb) software bug. Well, I did it again. I am confident the timing problem was purely the result of two conflicting bugs in the software. Mea culpa! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 21:41:36 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 19:41:36 -0800 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 7:25 PM woodelf wrote: >OK, what if I want a copy of "The thinker" to stand in my Garden. >Now if I hire a guy to carve one out, is that breaking copywrite? >I can't really ask the man that carved it for permission? >Ben alias woodelf Well, if you used as your model Rodin's circa-1900 piece "The Thinker", you're probably on safe ground as the work is in the public domain. However, if you used as your pattern someone's 1980 interpretation of Rodin's work, you'd likely be infringing. Most of my dealing with copyright is in printed music, and it's a minefield controlled by not very many large multinational firms. Suppose I wanted to produce an arrangement of Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" for kazoo sextet. First, I'd research the work and discover that it was published in 1924, which puts it just past the magic October 1923 non-extension date for public domain works. So, it's still under copyright. I could wait until 2019 for the copyright to expire and hope that Congress didn't pass another extension(extremely unlikely), but I suspect my enthusiasm for the project will have waned by then. On the other hand, I could move to one of the EU countries and wait until 2007, when the copyright on the work would expire there. But I couldn't publish my arrangement in the USA without permission until 2019. So, I decide that I still want to write my arrangement and remain here in cold soggy Oregon. I locate the copyright owner, which (fortunately) is still the Gershwin trust, whose rights to the work are (unfortunately) administered by Hal Leonard/Warner Brothers, which is a division of Disney (some of the most difficult people you can imagine dealing with). I describe what I want to do, and await terms. Most likely, I'll end up paying a one-time fee of less than $1,000 to Disney, given the limited scope of my audience. That is, if they agree to allow me to do it--they're under no legal obligation and may in fact, not like the idea of six kazoos playing George's magnum opus. They will ask me if I've done any sketches or preliminary versions of the arrangement; if I say that I have, they may direct me to send them what I've got, destroy any copies or notes that I've made and never darken their door again. You see, the law says that doing an arrangement without permission is an infringement, even if it's unpublished. (Trust me--it's happened to folks I know). I'm still not home free. I must now find a copy of Rhapsody in Blue that's a facsimile of the original, not someone's edition. You see--corrections or alterations are also protected by copyright and I won't want to pay TWO people licensing fees. Then I can actually do what I want and go through with getting it published and sold. I hope it's a hit. There is yet another twist of copyright law that accompanies the fall of the old Soviet Union. Works that once were public domain in the USA because Warsaw Pact copyrights weren't recognized can be in the same class as "toothpaste back into the tube"--that is, they can have their copyrights "restored". This can lead to some interesting side effects. For example, orchestral musicians often use summaries of instrumental parts called "excerpts' as reference material (after all, who wants to wade through the whole score of Dvorak's New World Symphony just to know that there are only 13 notes played by the tuba?). Many of these that were quite legal prior to 1990 (e.g. the works of Dimitri Shostakovich) are now on the "restored" list and no longer published. Used copies of these now fetch several times their original price. At least Congress didn't mandate that we had to burn the old copies. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 12 21:42:54 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:42:54 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <20051212211357.6124291a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <012001c5ff97$4fa27a80$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 9:13 PM Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 14:42:36 +0200 > Wouter wrote: > > > Hi all > > > > >Mind you if somebody came up with a better OS when the 386's > > >came out, would we have windows today? > > > > It's called "Linux". And yea, we still have Windoze... :-) > > > > W > > > > It was also called Coherent, and OS/2. And DesqView (and in > particular DesqView/X, which has almost completely disappeared > from history) also made a good run for it. > I have boxed versions of Desqview/X 1.0 and 2.0 and they are fun to play around with on 386/486 machines. The bad part of DV/X is there are less native apps (can't think of any other then DV/X enabled DOS programs for BBS's) for it then OS/2. Windows 3.1 lives on with some hobbyists (me anyway) because of the Apps and hardware that was made for it. IF there are few native apps then the OS goes to obscurity very fast. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 21:49:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:49:43 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <439E2D3F.3020902@oldskool.org> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <20051212210528.486dc076.chenmel@earthlink.net> <439E2D3F.3020902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051212224943.5dcada1e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:09:03 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > I installed a drivparm line in the config.sys file of a > > true-blue IBM PC-XT just this morning with good results. > > However, it is a machine with a BIOS extension on the > > controller card. And it's running MS-DOS. > > What does your CONFIG.SYS line look like? > -- DrivParm=/D:0 /F:7 /H:2 /S:18 /T:80 I used a /D:1 for the B: drive. It all makes sense when you look at the DOS 3.2 manual. For 'ordinary' supported media, you use the /F: to directly cite the drive types. /F:7 is 'other' and then you spell out heads/sectors/tracks. If your DOS is 3.3. or newer your task is simpler. I used google to find it at work today. The URL where I ended up finding what I needed was: http://www.computing.net/dos/wwwboard/forum/14041.html (I had to repeat my error from this morning to find relocate the actual citation in google- I searched on 'drvparm' when at work. If you search on the actual keyword, you're lost in a sea of results. There are only 47 results found for the misspelled 'drvparm' but the discussion that cites the exact arguments to use for a 1.44 drive in an environment that doesn't directly support 1.44M was one of the 47. So voila!) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 12 22:16:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:16:15 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRF00G3055ZS6TQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: "Teo Zenios" > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:42:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I have boxed versions of Desqview/X 1.0 and 2.0 and they are fun to play >around with on 386/486 machines. The bad part of DV/X is there are less >native apps (can't think of any other then DV/X enabled DOS programs for >BBS's) for it then OS/2. > >Windows 3.1 lives on with some hobbyists (me anyway) because of the Apps and >hardware that was made for it. IF there are few native apps then the OS goes >to obscurity very fast. I still have my kits for Win3.1, win3.11 DOS5, DOS6.22, Norton desktop and and useful software like Paradox4.5/dos, Wordperfect suite, Procom, Norton commander and Norton utilities/dos and a carload of other stuff. Most importantly a Laptop (color-486/66) and desktop 486/66 that run these. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 12 22:16:18 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:16:18 -0700 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >So, I decide that I still want to write my arrangement and remain here in >cold soggy Oregon. > > > One question! Can you play the Kazoo? :) Well check out this -- http://www.nutshellhifi.com/index.html#index The world of triodes. . >I locate the copyright owner, which (fortunately) is still the Gershwin >trust, whose rights to the work are (unfortunately) administered by Hal >Leonard/Warner Brothers, which is a division of Disney (some of the most >difficult people you can imagine dealing with). > > I can't say I am a fan of Disney, mostly because of self adverting, still they are the only people people who can re-release Studio Ghibli's works in english, because they agreed to do NO editing of the films but just translation from japanese into english. A web site about his films http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/ >There is yet another twist of copyright law that accompanies the fall of >the old Soviet Union. Works that once were public domain in the USA >because Warsaw Pact copyrights weren't recognized can be in the same class >as "toothpaste back into the tube"--that is, they can have their copyrights >"restored". > > While I have taken a few software packages from work to home to work at home, like DOS and some programimg software that never made it back later to work, I for the most part want to buy the software providing it reasonable. The same goes for music , I don't mind paying a resonable sum for music, but I don't think music needs to re-priced higher every time the media changes and quality goes down. $#@! On being able to get "Those where the days" by Mary Hopkin from Apple records on CD. I have the used record but my cheap turntable died. >Cheers, >Chuck > > >. > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 12 22:44:58 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:44:58 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software References: <0IRF00G3055ZS6TQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <013701c5ff9f$f8ddde20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > I still have my kits for Win3.1, win3.11 DOS5, DOS6.22, Norton desktop and > and useful software like Paradox4.5/dos, Wordperfect suite, Procom, > Norton commander and Norton utilities/dos and a carload of other stuff. > Most importantly a Laptop (color-486/66) and desktop 486/66 that run these. > > Allison I have some interesting apps and utilities like QEMM 7.5, FoxPro 2.0, Microsoft Professional Basic, etc and I still look around for a cheap boxed copies of Visual Basic Pro 3.0, Norton Desktop 2.x or later, Xtree Gold 4.0 Windows among others. Very few people use Windows 3.1 era apps anymore and the programs of that era tended to have full hardcopy manuals which I like. I also have OS/2 1.1E, 2.1, 3.0 (blue and red spine), 3.0 connect, and 4.0. While you can find most of these apps on the internet in image form, I find that they just sit around on a CD until I can find the legit version with manuals and then I get interested in using them. The only app I do want images for is Halo Desktop Imager version 1.02.07, I purchased it new and still have the manual but cannot find the disks anywhere. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 22:44:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:44:04 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2CC3.9010805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051212234404.55e64aee.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:06:59 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking > >about > printing, for which he is right on the money. If you > >used Word > Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts > >your printer > supported. If you used Geoworks, or > >Ghostscript (I used a retail > package called "GOSCRIPT"), or > >Win 3.1, you could use any font you > want and the print > >subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. > > > > But then we have TEX created under a unix system for real > > work. > > That's a bit elitist. Some of us weren't that lucky. > When I look at my hoary old Simtelnet MS-DOS CDROM from the very early 90's, there is a TEX directory. TEX was ported to MS-DOS, and not recently. I will admit that *I* didn't know what 'TEX' was at the time. > > GUI's are not the way to print out stuff. > > GUI is irrelevant. When I was limited to a single font and > 80-char/66-line output -- on a device capable of 200 DPI output > -- I tore my hair out. It's not my fault the only decent > low-cost print systems were attached to a GUI. I was limited in the same way. There was a time (yes, for me there really was) when I loaded Windows 2.11 to get a vector-based drawing package that I could print from on my lousy dot matrix printer (Micrografx In*A*Vision, which was sold including a Windows 1 runtime version in case you didn't have the full Windows on your system). And I wrote papers for school using the 'fancy' fonts that I could only obtain on my nine-pin dot matrix printer using Windows. Back then, Windows was something you darted in and out of for specific uses, of course... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 23:10:18 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:10:18 -0800 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512122110180728.1AFD864C@10.0.0.252> On 12/12/2005 at 9:16 PM woodelf wrote: > One question! Can you play the Kazoo? :) >Well check out this -- http://www.nutshellhifi.com/index.html#index >The world of triodes. . Believe it or not, the kazoo is a very valuable teaching tool for brass instruments. I used to run 811A's in the modulator of my transmitter many years ago. The final was 813's. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 23:24:53 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:24:53 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, woodelf wrote: > While I have taken a few software packages from work to home to work at > home, like > DOS and some programimg software that never made it back later to work, > I for the most > part want to buy the software providing it reasonable. The same goes for > music , I don't mind One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the 'main stream' opinion. vax, 9000 From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 23:30:56 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:30:56 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <013701c5ff9f$f8ddde20$0500fea9@game> References: <0IRF00G3055ZS6TQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <013701c5ff9f$f8ddde20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20051213003056.1bab2d21.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:44:58 -0500 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Allison" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > > > > > > I still have my kits for Win3.1, win3.11 DOS5, DOS6.22, Norton > > desktop and and useful software like Paradox4.5/dos, > > Wordperfect suite, Procom, Norton commander and Norton > > utilities/dos and a carload of other stuff. Most importantly a > > Laptop (color-486/66) and desktop 486/66 that run > these. > > > > Allison > > I have some interesting apps and utilities like QEMM 7.5, FoxPro > 2.0, Microsoft Professional Basic, etc and I still look around > for a cheap boxed copies of Visual Basic Pro 3.0, Norton > Desktop 2.x or later, Xtree Gold 4.0 Windows among others. Very > few people use Windows 3.1 era apps anymore and the programs of > that era tended to have full hardcopy manuals which I like. I > also have OS/2 1.1E, 2.1, 3.0 (blue and red spine), 3.0 connect, > and 4.0. > > While you can find most of these apps on the internet in image > form, I find that they just sit around on a CD until I can find > the legit version with manuals and then I get interested in > using them. The only app I do want images for is Halo Desktop > Imager version 1.02.07, I purchased it new and still have the > manual but cannot find the disks anywhere. > Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was out there and some of us grabbed a copy. And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' (somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 12 23:42:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:42:13 -0800 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512122142130617.1B1ABDF5@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 12:24 AM 9000 VAX wrote: >One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are >with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step >further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS >tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit >that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the >'main stream' opinion. I suppose that would depend on the EULA, wouldn't it? Some permit transfer of license with or without charge, others don't. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 12 23:41:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:41:45 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:24:53 -0500 9000 VAX wrote: > On 12/12/05, woodelf wrote: > > While I have taken a few software packages from work to home > > to work at home, like > > DOS and some programimg software that never made it back later > > to work, I for the most > > part want to buy the software providing it reasonable. The > > same goes for music , I don't mind > > One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them > are with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? > One step further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? > Examples are MKS tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, > Qedit, PC tools. I admit that I am not bothered by this issue. I > am just curious about the 'main stream' opinion. > > vax, 9000 > Some of the software was licensed to exactly whomever installed it or who an IT person installed it for. It's a 'grey area' without referring to a specific (version of a) package. There are large bodies of old software which legally cannot exist and which, if we are going to follow the law down to the letter, must be obliterated any time a copy of said software is discovered. There's a big difference between being a conservator and going around spreading warez, though. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 12 23:48:53 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:48:53 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software References: <0IRF00G3055ZS6TQ@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <013701c5ff9f$f8ddde20$0500fea9@game> <20051213003056.1bab2d21.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <015801c5ffa8$ef864570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very > useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. > It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was > out there and some of us grabbed a copy. > > And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may > have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. > > It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic > that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an > MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' > (somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically > to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. http://www.qbcafe.net/english/index.html?dl_pages/compiler/index.html~qbc_main This link has a few libraries for QuickBasic and Visual Basic for DOS (and if you dig around it has the VBDOS binaries). Visual Basic for DOS can do real graphics just like QuickBasic can, the interface is just DOS based I believe. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 13 02:04:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:04:17 GMT Subject: PDP-11/73 booting! In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: PDP-11/73 booting!" (Dec 12, 21:17) References: <0IRE00F5TZO9O3Z2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10512130804.ZM3740@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 12 2005, 21:17, Allison wrote: > I did say 73B didn't I? There were two different J11 cards, I am using > the M8190 KDJ11-B which is Q22. However there is a later J11 that uses > the PMI memory. I have memory for that one but not the CPU. Yes, you did say 73B. As I'm sure you know, there were two 73s, one dual M8192 and one quad M8190. The dual is QBus only, naturally, no PMI. The 83 is also quad, and is the same M8190 card as the 73, but with a faster clock (the earliest J11s won't run reliably at 18MHz let alone any faster) and slightly different bootstrap ROMs. 73 was sold as a 15MHz non-PMI system and the 83 as 18MHz PMI, but in fact you can move the 73 card below the memory instead of above it and it will work (if the memory is PMI, anyway!). In fact the OSs distinguish 11/73 systems from 11/83 systems simply by checking if they're using PMI. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Tue Dec 13 02:49:41 2005 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:49:41 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439E8B25.5030408@retrobbs.org> Richard wrote: >In article <200512121013520860.18A48FB0 at 10.0.0.252>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > >>On 12/12/2005 at 4:00 PM Mark Firestone wrote: >> >> >> >>>I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to >>>part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application >>>on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably >>>about 10 years ago...) >>> >>> >>I've got MS-DOS and PC-DOS versions going back to 1.0 on file--including >>the really reprehensible DOS 4.0, but wherein lies the permission to >>distribute these things? . >> >> > >You might enquire here about legitimate purchasable copies of old >versions of DOS: > >I know he regularly seeks out copies of MS-DOS 6.22 for resale. He >may have access to older versions as well. If he does, he will send >you original media, etc., not a disk copy. > > I understand your position. However, the machine did come with PC-DOS 3.3, and they own the machine. No one is trying to pull one over on IBM and have anything that they aren't entitled to. They just did one of those famous clean outs and threw the disks away. Thanks for the info, Mark From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 13 03:18:26 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 04:18:26 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <01C5FF9C.4A5FCAA0@MSE_D03> ----- Original Message ---- From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very > useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. > It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was > out there and some of us grabbed a copy. > > And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may > have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. > > It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic > that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an > MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' > (somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically > to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. http://www.qbcafe.net/english/index.html?dl_pages/compiler/index.html~qbc_main This link has a few libraries for QuickBasic and Visual Basic for DOS (and if you dig around it has the VBDOS binaries). Visual Basic for DOS can do real graphics just like QuickBasic can, the interface is just DOS based I believe. ---------------------Reply---------------- Most third-party MDA cards were Hercules-compatible and could display better graphics than CGA (Mono, of course, but much cheaper than EGA or VGA, and surprisingly, Windows didn't look too bad without colour). And there was a driver to use the internal speaker for sound if you couldn't afford a sound card... mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 06:38:11 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:38:11 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRF00DXZSEERQJ4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 00:30:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Something rather surreal in some regards, but which could be very >useful for quick hackish projects, is Visual Basic for MS-DOS. >It's not something Microsoft promoted for very long, but it was >out there and some of us grabbed a copy. > >And yes, I do have the boxed Professional version. And what may >have been the only third-party book teaching how to code in it. > >It's sort of cool- a completely text-mode version of Visual Basic >that you can develop code with on with a machine that only has an >MDA card. Like watching mpegs rendered to 'ASCII graphics' >(somebody actually coded that, btw.) It works almost identically >to Visual Basic 3.0 for Windows. It's other brother, QuickBasic4.5/dos is in that collection and still something I use. My old dosware, early windowsware is stuff I'd bought and gotten with my first machines. Some of those machines didn't last but I did keep the software as it's useful and mine. However the one I like the most is Corel Paradox for windows as the license is actually in english and allows for a work copy and a home copy on the basis that you are only really using copy of it at any time. That and it produces decent Pascal! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 06:41:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:41:29 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 Message-ID: <0IRF006XLSJWLEF4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:42:13 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 12:24 AM 9000 VAX wrote: > >>One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are >>with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step >>further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS >>tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit >>that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the >>'main stream' opinion. > >I suppose that would depend on the EULA, wouldn't it? Some permit transfer >of license with or without charge, others don't. > The MS EULA is simple. If the machine dies and you pitch it you supposed to buy everything new. You may however repair it, for whatever that really amounts to. They want you to spend, spend, spend. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 13 07:07:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:07:27 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <0IRE006Q7RYOLER2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051213070727.50f74dc6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:31 PM 12/12/05 -0500, Allison wrote: >> >Exactly! FYI: CP/M does still have a copyright in effect only the license >to use and distribute for NON_COMMERCIAL purposes has changed. >Thank you Tim Olmstead for persuing this. > >The bottom like is yes, there is a lot of software that can be copied freely >for for hobbiest use but the copyright is still in effect and the license >that allows it is now suspended for whatever reasons. > >Would MS do that with dos up to say 6.22? No idea. I seriously doubt it. MS is determined to kill all of the old SW and FORCE everyone to "update" to their newest operating system. Joe > > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 13 06:43:13 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:43:13 -0500 Subject: Toshiba T3100/e memory upgrade Message-ID: <01C5FFB9.0F1CB760@MSE_D03> Has anyone upgraded the memory on a T3100 by any chance? ( 1MB standard, 5MB max) Looks like 4 standard 30-pin modules, 256KB or 1MB, but it doesn't recognize any of the ones I've tried so I assume there's something proprietary about them. Anybody have any info or experience? TIA, mike From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 07:24:11 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:24:11 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0512130524h5eccf986sd2114b0cb036bc31@mail.gmail.com> Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM (already an almost obsolete config by the time Win95 came out) and has one of the cleanest, nicest GUIs around (bested at the time only by NeXT and OS/2 WPS) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Dec 13 07:52:28 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:52:28 -0600 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051213075129.053b2628@mail> At 11:41 PM 12/12/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >There's a big difference between being a conservator and going >around spreading warez, though. Are you saying there's a fragment of law or court cases that carve out exceptions to the copyright practices for "computer conservators"? - John From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Dec 13 09:50:15 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:50:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: <200512122338.jBCNcIOB008311@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051213155015.7450.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Glad to oblige.. Here's some websites with pics... http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/zintface.htm (I made both the Label and Ad in this page.. LOL!) http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/slvr-fdd.htm http://www.outlawnet.com/~jboatno4/welcome.htm http://www.timexsinclair.org/unsorted/TS-ZebraDiskSystem.html My friend Tom still has one of the black FDD-3000 Systems (all in one case). I may get it from him at some time. I don't have a TS-2068 anymore, but I DO have a prototype of a U.S. ZX-Spectrum, and a Spectrum version of the FDD Interface. So, I could run such a system using my Spectrum. Al --- cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:08:27 +0000 > From: Adrian Graham > Subject: Re: Amdek 3" Floppy Drives > > Hi Al, > > On 12/12/05 01:04, "Al Hartman" > wrote: > > > I still have a couple here with the OS for that > system > > on them. > > Have you got any pictures of the units? I don't > think I've heard of that > subsystem at all! > > Cheers > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private > home computer > collection? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Dec 13 10:02:17 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:02:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <200512130212.jBD2Ckgv011551@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051213160217.92632.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not necessarily true... My Wordperfect 5 for DOS came with a Bitstream Font engine that added Bitstream fonts to WordPerfect for DOS. I was NOT limited to the Printer Fonts, though I had an HP LaserJet and a special WordPerfect Font Cartridge for that which added many standard fonts to the Printer as well... This functionality was later added into WPDOS 6.x... If I had to, I could do ALL of my current WordProcessing needs on WPDOS 5.x or 6.x, and I did for quite a while... Regards, Al Hartman > Allison wrote: > >> As to better docs... WordperfectV5/dos was better than any of the MS >> apps for that back then. > > > He wasn't talking about document creation, he was talking about > printing, for which he is right on the money. If you used Word > Perfect 5 for DOS, you were limited to the fonts your printer > supported. If you used Geoworks, or Ghostscript (I used a retail > package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you could use any font you > want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as graphics. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Dec 13 10:14:12 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fancy Font? In-Reply-To: <200512130212.jBD2Ckgv011551@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051213161412.18248.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anyone ever use this? That ad for the Zebra Disk System a few posts back, was done on an Imsai Computer using CP/M 2.2 with a Z80 Board in it. I processed the text using WordStar and put in commands VERY similar to HTML to output text to an FX-80 F/T Printer with a program called Fancy Font... Which I guess would be called a RIP, but it wasn't PostScript. Later, we moved to the IBM PC Version of this program I ran on either an Eagle XT Clone, or an XT Clone I was using. Further on... I was using an Atari-ST Upgraded to 2.5mb with a Magic Sac Cartridge (Mac 512 Emulator) a 20mb Atari Disk Drive, and Epstart to get my Epson FX-80 F/T to emulate an Imagewriter using Adobe Type Manager for better font handling. THOSE were the days... When squeezing "Letter Quality" out of old Dot Matrix Printers was FUN!!! I remember drooling over Don Lancaster's articles that married an Apple Laserwriter Controller Board to an HP LaserJet. I ALWAYS wanted one of those. Never did it. Now, I have SEVERAL LaserJet IIIP printers, the Adobe Postscript Cartridge AND the Pacific Page Cartridge. Neither of which seem to work well with Windows XP or MacOS X. Oh well... BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Dec 13 10:39:55 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:39:55 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Fred Cisin : > The "official", "standardized" support of 3.5" 720K in 3.20 was with use > of DRIVER.SYS and/or DRIVPARM. DRIVPARM was incompatible with IBM's BIOS, > and therefore was undocumented in PC-DOS. Do you remember the details of the problem with DRIVPARM? Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 11:55:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 09:55:15 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200512130955150486.1DB9D99A@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 8:39 AM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >Quoting Fred Cisin : > >> The "official", "standardized" support of 3.5" 720K in 3.20 was with use >> of DRIVER.SYS and/or DRIVPARM. DRIVPARM was incompatible with IBM's >BIOS, >> and therefore was undocumented in PC-DOS. > >Do you remember the details of the problem with DRIVPARM? IIRC, the definition of cluster size and therefore FAT length differed between PC-DOS and MS-DOS at one point; i.e., there was the iBM 720K and then there was the Microsoft 720K format. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 13 12:03:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:03:10 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051212204251.42420685.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> Warning: I did not top post! There are further responses inline with the reply. ;-) =-=-=-=-= Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I was thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want it to be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! ;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external 5V only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a hobbyist. Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a bit of work for not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of 40-pin IDE connector (for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty easy to do at home. I do have a question: Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to accomplish. I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a computer, so can you! ;-) Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) Rumor has it that Scott Stevens may have mentioned these words: >On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 >"Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for > > > me as I > > > > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should > > have been perfect :-) And it's never too late for good ideas. ;-) > > > realize in hindsight that 128k of > > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had a maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. Other than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo was the workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then current) employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. > > > This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. > > > > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even > > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k > > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that > > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer > > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think > > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! Unless you're running Windows. ;-) >64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. >I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the >micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a >godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests >from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature >'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' >you requested last month uses.") A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 12:05:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:05:09 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRG007KI7J9U2L3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Madcrow Maxwell > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:24:11 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at >least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but >it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x Yes, though not nearly as good as NT. It reallys shows pain when there is networking activity and multiple tasks. There were three multitasking (non unice) paths from DOS. Win95, NT3.51 and OS/2 and NT is the only remaining technology line of the three that's semidecent. >And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as >saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well >on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM (already an almost obsolete config >by the time Win95 came out) and has one of the cleanest, nicest GUIs >around (bested at the time only by NeXT and OS/2 WPS) As someone that maintained W95b in a business environment for 5years and as a user it's ok. W98se was better but more bloated. If you built the hybrid of 98 internals and 95gui it was decent. However it's problems were that if it swaps things sometimes get nasty and FAT16/32 was not robust. Also if an app went off in the woods the OS was doomed. It certainly was serviceable and ran on fairly light platforms usefully. After W98se the bloat was unmanageable. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 12:09:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 Message-ID: <0IRG0023K7PVW1R5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Al Hartman > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:02:17 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Not necessarily true... > >My Wordperfect 5 for DOS came with a Bitstream Font >engine that added Bitstream fonts to WordPerfect for >DOS. Worked well too. >I was NOT limited to the Printer Fonts, though I had >an HP LaserJet and a special WordPerfect Font >Cartridge for that which added many standard fonts to >the Printer as well... > >This functionality was later added into WPDOS 6.x... WP6 was really good and I have it on the system still. A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal briefs and the like. Also WPis available for Linux and thats a very good thing for the non-gui desktop user. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 12:12:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:12:21 -0800 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> References: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512131012210241.1DC98075@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 1:03 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: >Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to >accomplish. Maybe not 80-100, but how about STD bus? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 12:15:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> References: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <439F0FC0.5000204@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own > homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own > buss system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if > desired. I was thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket > backplane. I want it to be educational to others (read: see-thru > Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! ;-) at the same time that I learn > from it, too. > The XT connectors can be got cheap. For a 8 bit CPU how many pins do you really need? Only I/O need go on the backplane - 32k x 8 ram is dirt cheap and too fast for a 2 MHZ 6809. Now a 4 MHZ 6809 ( that are not made ) would be just about right. > For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / > easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external > 5V only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a > hobbyist. Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a > bit of work for not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of > 40-pin IDE connector (for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty > easy to do at home. > I think protype PCB's are still better as when you add up the price for WireWrap sockets I think works out the same ballpark figure. I think the time doing a PCB is longer but less hassle since mistakes in wire wrapping are very hard to find. > I do have a question: > > Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy > that might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be > compatible with something else out there if it's similar enough to > what I want to accomplish. > > I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free > on the web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can > make a computer, so can you! ;-) > That is my line. > Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) > > > Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first > year of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I > still had a maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until > the mid-90's. Other than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the > 'toy' and my CoCo was the workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server > from my (then current) employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary > machine. > The crappy hardware on the COCO keeps it a toy. > > A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. > > I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) > I want a Gimix! ( I think that is how it was spelled ) > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Just where are you that it is 30 below? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 12:14:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:14:16 -0500 Subject: Fancy Font? Message-ID: <0IRG007HR7YGU4K3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Fancy Font? > From: Al Hartman > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Anyone ever use this? I still ahve it for CP/M works ok. teamed up with ROFF (CPM runoff) it's handy. >BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing >to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it >only has 256k. > I have a sixpack with the permium pack (more ram) I haven't decided what I may do with. Allison From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 13 12:17:28 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:17:28 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131704.jBDH4R9X021825@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00a901c60011$7a7cef90$6401a8c0@barry> I have a retail boxed Generic copy of MS-DOS 3.3 sitting here on my bookshelf, in pristine new condition. I won't part with it, but I might be willing to make a copy of the diskettes if I can do it on my Z-100 (none of my other machines still have 5.25" disk drives), and, I guess I should add, if the disks are still good. Please note, it is MS-DOS, not PC-DOS. Not sure if this matters to you or not. Please contact me privately to pursue this. ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:00:01 +0000 From: Mark Firestone Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439D9E81.30109 at retrobbs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably about 10 years ago...) Anyone? Please? Thanks, Mark ******* From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 13 12:18:20 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:18:20 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/12/2005 at 5:39 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >I am not a lawyer, but my father-in-law is, and he summed up Fair Use to > >me as > >the following: "If you are not slandering a company or causing them > >financial > >harm, you generally don't need to worry." > > I confess right now that I've seen products arbitrarily classified as > "abandonware" and distributed over the net without so much as a note to > the > owner saying "would it be okay if we did this?"--and it disturbs me > greatly--and in some cases, makes my blood boil. In many cases for old software, the owner cannot be located. In many other cases (such as bankrupt companies), the owner can't be identified. This question comes up all the time on the music-oriented lists and the > rationalizations are nothing short of amazing. 'Well, it's out of print, > so I can copy it" This is one place the law needs to be changed. Because copyright law is (by consititutional mandate in the U.S.) designed to advance "the useful arts and sciences" by making works available and by making sure that they end up in the public domain. If someone is no longer willing to make a work available (at a reasonable price commensurate with the effort required to create it and in consideration of the time that has passed since its creation.) the work should go to the public domain immediately. The practice of suppressing existing works in order to maintain prevent competition with new products is antithetical to the purpose of copyright. Frankly, if its out of print, the copyright owner has decided that it is not worth it for them to distribute it. At that point, for the copyright holder to prevent distribution is unacceptable, even if it is legal. As is this corporate "right" to a perpetual monopoly on the works of authors who are long dead. Its long past time for copyright to revert to reasonable durations, require registration of works, require that un-encrypted copies be submitted to the Library of Congress, and indemnify copyright holders against harm caused by their works after the expiration of the copyright. Fifteen years with requred re-registration every subsequent five years, up to 35 years maximum, seems more than reasonable to me. > US Copyright Law defines Fair Use rather narrowly and, contrary to your > father-in-law's legal opinion, does not mandate that a copyright holder > demonstrate financial loss or harm from an infringement as part of a > claim. > Neither does it require a copyright holder to vigorously defend a > copyright. However, if a copyright holder does not defend a copyright. the government is unlikely to take action on their behalf. Likewise if there is no definable financial harm. It would not surprise me if IBM or MIcrosoft had a few OEM contracts still > in force that enabled the OEM to make a copy of DOS 3.3 for use, provided > a > royalty is paid. That may be true. However, I don't think that can be construed to prevent someone from recovering a copy of software which they own from a backup copy, even if that backup copy is provided by a third party. > What I'm saying here is for works authored after 1978. Prior to that > time, > there were additional requirements regarding registration and publication > and the statement of copyright on the work. None of that is necessary for > works created after 1978--thus, if you're not sure, it's safest to assume > that a work is copyrighted. > It's also fairly safe to assume that if you cannot locate the holder of the copyright after reasonable effort, no harm will come to you, or the holder of the copyright. If the holder was concerned about unauthorized distribution, they would make it widely known that they were the holders. From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 13 12:22:26 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:22:26 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512131012210241.1DC98075@10.0.0.252> References: <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> <200512131012210241.1DC98075@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439F1162.5010202@jcwren.com> Or those Eurocard connectors that are 30 some-odd pins wide and 3 to 5 pins deep? I doubt they're 0.1" spacing, but they dense and rugged. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/13/2005 at 1:03 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >>Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >>might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >>something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to >>accomplish. >> >> > >Maybe not 80-100, but how about STD bus? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 13 12:28:58 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:28:58 -0800 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512122142130617.1B1ABDF5@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512122142130617.1B1ABDF5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/13/2005 at 12:24 AM 9000 VAX wrote: > > >One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are > >with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step > >further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS > >tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit > >that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the > >'main stream' opinion. > > I suppose that would depend on the EULA, wouldn't it? Some permit > transfer > of license with or without charge, others don't. In the US, the doctrine of first sale states that whether the EULA allows transfer or not, the item may be transfered. (Of course this likely means that since the transferee did not agree to the EULA, the EULA doesn't bind the transferee. I don't know whether this has been tested in court.) Of course, the doctrine of first sale can be read to only allow sale of the original copy, not the copy on the hard disk. This may or may not depend upon whether the original copy still exists. (Again I don't know whether this has been tested, either.) But regardless of what the EULA says, you can resell or give away the original media, so long any you destroy any copies you may have. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 13 12:37:09 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:37:09 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <439F0FC0.5000204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213132445.03b9ca40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> >>Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own >>homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss >>system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I >>was thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want >>it to be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa >>Blinkenlights! ;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. >The XT connectors can be got cheap. Same problem as the S100, tho - how do you chisel out an XT board edge connector at home... > For a 8 bit CPU how many pins do you really need? 40 pins, but I didn't want to limit the design solely for the 6809. I might want to build a 68K board in the future, and for that I'd need more pins. >Now a 4 MHZ 6809 ( that are not made ) would be just about right. But a 4Mhz Hitachi 6309 *was* made, and clock for clock it was even faster than the 6809, had a hardware divide and some 32-bit operations. Schweet! >I think protype PCB's are still better as when you add up the price for >WireWrap sockets >I think works out the same ballpark figure. I think the time doing a >PCB is longer but >less hassle since mistakes in wire wrapping are very hard to find. Due to size restrictions, I wasn't going to wirewrap (except maybe one prototype board, but even that would be temporary until I made a PCB) - not enough board density for a "small" computer. >>Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year >>of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had >>a maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. >>Other than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo >>was the workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then >>current) employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. >The crappy hardware on the COCO keeps it a toy. Crappy hardware? I just pulled out my durned-near-20 year old CoCo3 (which at the time was about 35 degrees F) plugged 'er in (yea, it was stupid, but I was in a hurry) and it sparked right up. I posit that machines today are the toys, and the machines of yore were the serious business tools. >>A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. >>I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) >I want a Gimix! ( I think that is how it was spelled ) Yup, and I drooled over the Gimix ads in Hot CoCo and Rainbow as well. Boy howdy would I love to have one of those now. >Just where are you that it is 30 below? Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan on the border of Ontario, Canada. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 12:43:15 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <0IRG0023K7PVW1R5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRG0023K7PVW1R5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439F1643.1080808@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal > briefs and the like. Why? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 12:50:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:50:51 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG004S39NF4VI4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:03:10 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Warning: I did not top post! There are further responses inline with the >reply. ;-) > >=-=-=-=-= > >Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own >homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss >system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I was >thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want it to >be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! >;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. > >For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / >easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external 5V >only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a hobbyist. >Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a bit of work for >not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of 40-pin IDE connector >(for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty easy to do at home. > >I do have a question: > >Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to accomplish. Not that some busses are processor specific so if you using CPU XXXX busses X,Z and Q may not be usefully available to you. On the other hand if your going small, at most you need an addres, data and control busses and for most 8bitters thats easily fit into less than 40 pins. I've done this before and a 8+ pin connector with odd or even pins all ground makes for a simple blackplane (IDC connectors on a wide peice of cable). >I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the >web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a >computer, so can you! ;-) > >Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) > >Rumor has it that Scott Stevens may have mentioned these words: >>On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 >>"Dave Dunfield" wrote: >> > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for >> > > me as I >> > >> > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should >> > have been perfect :-) > >And it's never too late for good ideas. ;-) > >> > > realize in hindsight that 128k of >> > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. > >Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year >of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had a >maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. Other >than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo was the >workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then current) >employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. I didn't cross the 64k barrier until 1981. Even then I rarely use it all. >> > > This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. >> > >> > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even >> > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k >> > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that >> > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer >> > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think >> > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! > >Unless you're running Windows. ;-) Here's the kicker. Winders sucks up a whole hell of a lot of space but an App that uses it wisely can be trivial in size. >>64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. >>I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the >>micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a >>godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests >>from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature >>'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' >>you requested last month uses.") > >A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. > >I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) I sure a Xylinx mumblefrap with all the right goop could get you that. However with 8k srams, 8keproms and a amazingly small handfull of parts.. As drawn by Dave 27 chips gets you 48k ram, OS in 8k Eprom, 2 serial ports, FDC that can handle 4 disks (360/720 5.25 or 720k 3.5" and 8" is basicaly there). If you recognize that the six 8Ksrams can be replaced with one 64k sram you knock off 5 chips and the FDC portion is 10-11 chips alone (basic 765 with ttl around it). If one could find a smc9229 FDI or mod the circuit for 37C65 that chip count gets much smaller. I happen to have some 64k srams and the majikal super rare custom FDI so the chip count will be under 20. As small single board systems go that is a very small chip count with out using PALS/GALS. Allison >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." >SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein >zmerch at 30below.com | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 12:52:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:52:48 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG003SI9QO0VQ2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:12:21 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 1:03 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that >>might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with >>something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to >>accomplish. > >Maybe not 80-100, but how about STD bus? > STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) as it's 6800/6809 based. If you use a 100pin connector with odd or alternate pins as ground then the backplane can be ribbon cable with IDC connectors! Allison From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 13 12:52:39 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:52:39 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 Message-ID: <20051213185239.MABV24720.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > This is one place the law needs to be changed. Because copyright law is (by > consititutional mandate in the U.S.) designed to advance "the useful arts > and sciences" by making works available and by making sure that they end up > in the public domain. ... > Frankly, if its out of print, the copyright owner has decided that it is not > worth it for them to distribute it. At that point, for the copyright > holder to prevent distribution is unacceptable, even if it is legal. On the whole, I tend to be sympathetic to this view. This is one small place where I have the opportunity to "put my money where my mouth is." I just recently signed a contract on a book. One of the things I asked of the publisher is that if they ever take it out of print, then I can request that the copyright revert to me. My intent is that the book not disappear. I would either release it through a self-publisher like Lulu or just make it available on the net. It turns out that certain other details (like third party translations) get a little more complicated but not in a way that harms my objectives. So at least in one area, some of the players are pretty sane. But then again, books have generally been the most sane part of the copyright scene. If only software and music thought of their products like we think of books... Brian L. Stuart From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 13:01:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:01:06 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 Message-ID: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Jim Leonard > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal >> briefs and the like. > >Why? At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. Allison >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 13:05:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:05:04 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 10:18 AM Eric J Korpela wrote: >In many cases for old software, the owner cannot be located. In many other >cases (such as bankrupt companies), the owner can't be identified. ...and on some "abandonware" web sites that I can point you to, the poster knows darned well that the owner is still around and reachable via a simple email and doesn't ask because he (or she) knows what the answer will be. That's what makes my blood boil. And what the heck, if the web site's in Belgium and the owner's here in the US, what do they have to fear? If you're going to toss copyrighted software around, do your best to locate the owner (Google is a wonderful tool) and then ASK. If the owner refuses, respect his/her/its/their wishes. So, if you want to toss around MS-DOS 3.3, why not drop a note to Microsoft for permission? If they say "no", you don't do it. If you don't like the current state of copyright law, talk to your Congressional representatives as I have. I'm in favor of a 14-14 year period comparable to patent law, where copyrights must be explicitly renewed for a fee. After 28 years, it's available for anyone's use. Here's a quiz--how much do you think the old song "Happy Birthday to You" is worth? Bet you thought it was PD. http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 13:13:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:13:10 -0800 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRG003SI9QO0VQ2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRG003SI9QO0VQ2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512131113100398.1E012EFA@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 1:52 PM Allison wrote: >STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) >as it's 6800/6809 based. Hmmm, maybe originally, but I've seen STD bus cards for just about any 8- or 16-bit CPU you could imagine. Didn't Fujitsu put out a 6809-based STD bus PC? I think they called it the FM-7 or some such. And STD bus is still in use. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 13:20:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:20:34 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're going to toss copyrighted software around, do your best to locate > the owner (Google is a wonderful tool) and then ASK. Google's usenet archive isn't what it once was though, now that they obscure email addresses and only let you contact authors through their site; if the author's using a spam-trapped address or has changed address format (but is still at the same location) then it's next to useless. Of course you may get lucky and find someone through a website, but IME the usenet archive was the most useful way of tracking people down until the point that Google broke it... :( cheers J. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Dec 13 13:20:57 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:20:57 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates - small system / bus choice Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> The Dr. Neherlab (of the Dutch Telecom, PTT) had in the end of the 70ties their own developed bus system. I was there and have such a (6800)based system still in the attick. My first home-built system, 1978). There were 8k bytes (with 2114) memory cards, 16k (2716) EPROM cards, and *different* CPU cards. I remember the 6800-based (obvious), but there was also a Z80-based card. Keep the memory boards in the backplane, swap the 6800 for the Z80 CPU card, and the system works (with other software of course). To be that versatile, the CPU boards had extra logic to make the bus interface always working (for example, the 6800 is synchronous in the bus transfers). Their system used the DIN41612 connectors (IIRC), It is the same connector used on VME modules, and has 32 pins in one row. With the 2- or 3-row version you have sufficient pins (96) for even a 68000-based bus system. That system also carried the power supply over the bus. I remember that pin #1 and pin #2 and pin #31 and #32 were used for +5V and GND. Hell, why not use the VME 3-HE bus pin designation for you own design? If you want a reliable, robust system, do not use card edge connectors. The VME connectors are superior. Besides, Eurocard boards with at one short edge drilled holes for DIN41612 3-row is pretty standard stuff. And if you want to build a small system, and have "dedicated" card for memory, (flash)ROM, and do not forget I/O !! - my humble opinion is Eurocard is the best choice. BTW, the female 3-row counterpart for DIN41612 also exists in a version to connect to flat cable! So, take some 20 cm of flat cable and pinch that female part on the flat cable, et voil?, you have the backplane / bus ! For improved noise immunity perhaps not the best solution, but then it is fairly cheap that way. my 2 (euro)cents, - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Roger Merchberger Verzonden: di 13-12-2005 19:03 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates Warning: I did not top post! There are further responses inline with the reply. ;-) =-=-=-=-= Firstly, I'd like to mention that I've always wanted to build my own homebrew 6809 system... altho I've been thinking of designing my own buss system (around 80 pins or so) so other CPUs could be used if desired. I was thinking of a multi-board system with a 6-7 socket backplane. I want it to be educational to others (read: see-thru Lucite case & lotsa Blinkenlights! ;-) at the same time that I learn from it, too. For a few reasons, S100 is not an option: I want the system smaller / easily portable (I'm guesstimating in inches: 6x6x9, with an external 5V only switcher), and I also want it to be easily buildable by a hobbyist. Trying to dremel an S100 cardedge would seem to be quite a bit of work for not a lot of gain - but square boards with a pair of 40-pin IDE connector (for example) edge-soldered on would be pretty easy to do at home. I do have a question: Are there any 80-100 pin buss structures already in use I could copy that might fit my bill? I'd rather do something that might be compatible with something else out there if it's similar enough to what I want to accomplish. I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a computer, so can you! ;-) Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) Rumor has it that Scott Stevens may have mentioned these words: >On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:15:48 +0000 >"Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > > I think cubix was a good idea, but this 15 years too late for > > > me as I > > > > What a co-incidence ... CUBIX is 20+ years old, so it should > > have been perfect :-) And it's never too late for good ideas. ;-) > > > realize in hindsight that 128k of > > > memory - split code and data is needed for any real work. Them's fightin' words. 64K w/OS-9 got me thru High school & my first year of college, before I got my CoCo3 & 128K (later to 512K) but I still had a maximum 64K code space - and that kept me working until the mid-90's. Other than running (crawling) Autocad, my '386 was the 'toy' and my CoCo was the workhorse. Once I got an EISA 486-66 server from my (then current) employer, did I consider the CoCo my secondary machine. > > > This the crummy 8088 has but not the 6809. > > > > Funny, I've done LOTS of "real work" in <64k 8-bit CPUs. Even > > now a lot of my command line utilities are compiled in 64k > > "tiny" model (Referencing stuff known here, Anyone notice that > > ImageDisk, my Simulators and the various other transfer > > utilities that I've done are all .COM files) - I used to think > > 64k was lots of memory... and I still do! Unless you're running Windows. ;-) >64K is a HECK of a lot of memory if your code is all in assembly. >I've worked on projects where the limited program memory in the >micro, i.e. the 16K of program memory available on-chip, was a >godsend- it served as a brake on futher 'feature creep' requests >from the folks in marketing. ("yes, we can include new feature >'x' but it means doing away with the lookup table that feature 'j' >you requested last month uses.") A few of those microcontrollers have 128K of flash on 'em now. I want my CoCo on a chip! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 13:26:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:26:47 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512130524h5eccf986sd2114b0cb036bc31@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512130524h5eccf986sd2114b0cb036bc31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <439F2077.6050200@yahoo.co.uk> Madcrow Maxwell wrote: > Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at > least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but > it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x My main problem with it was that it tended to disintegrate over time and eventually would need a reinstall as functionality would start to break and free disk space would mysteriously vanish... All modern OSes (MS-based and otherwise) seem to suffer from that, but Win95 was the worst. > And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as > saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well > on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM Not for program development it doesn't. Been there, done that! I can believe it works well enough for WP and the like though. I'd say it was the point where the downward spiral of ever-increasing application bloat started though. I don't remember Win 3.x apps or even apps on other platforms being as colossal as the typical Win95 app was, and it's all gradually got worse since then. I'm not sure whether Win95 itself is the root cause of that or not - probably not, but it's strange that it happened around that time period. cheers Jules From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Dec 13 13:21:28 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:21:28 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> but it would make the entry of an address (16-bit) cumbersome. You must enter it as an 8-bit high and an 8-bit low address. I'd definately would go for 16 switches in this case, and also 16 LEDs for the address. Perhaps a matter of taste ... What if you need access to xxx.nnn where xxx != 000 or 777? Why pose limits that early in the design? You might regret such a decision later ... - Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens woodelf Verzonden: ma 12-12-2005 23:05 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Using the pdp8/e design fron panel for the 6809 is possible, but ... >there are only 15 Address LEDs (12 plus 3 for EMA), and the other row is >12 LEDs, so the upper 4 would not be used. The rotary knob could be used >to display A or B (or DP or CC) but to display X, Y, U, SP, PC you need >16 LEDs. There are just 12 switches, and you could use the SW switch as >the 13th, but still, to enter a 16-bit address would be cumbersome. >So, the pdp8/e panel is not the best choice, but the implementation >-hardware wise- is always possible. Software is what makes it 'tick' :-) >and I am sure that's "piece of cake" for you, Dave. > > As you all know by now I am building a 9/18 bit cpu. My front panel will be limited to 9 data switches and a address page switch. This lets me access 000.nnn and 777.nnn memory on address load. Since I plan only to use the swr for short programs on page zero and have a bootstrap rom and I/O on the last page this more than ample for me. A similar restricted front panel may be possible as well for the 6809 as data is byte orientated. Ben alias woodelf This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 13:33:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:33:05 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG0046BBLS5KO4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:13:10 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/13/2005 at 1:52 PM Allison wrote: > >>STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) >>as it's 6800/6809 based. > >Hmmm, maybe originally, but I've seen STD bus cards for just about any 8- >or 16-bit CPU you could imagine. Didn't Fujitsu put out a 6809-based STD >bus PC? I think they called it the FM-7 or some such. > >And STD bus is still in use. > >Cheers, >Chuck Indeed, it still is. But there are many choices and in the end it would depend if you wish to use boards native to that bus. If you not using board native to the bus then there is no compelling reason other than convenience in seeking protocards and connectors. In the past I've used PC XT (ISA-8) bus as it's 8bit data/20bit address and enough pins for anything. the convenice was there are/were bare busses (or you can cut up an old mainboard) and protoboards were cheap and fairly large. Allison From bob at jfcl.com Tue Dec 13 13:38:37 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:38:37 -0800 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213132445.03b9ca40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000f01c6001c$d39c54c0$f61a36d0@jfcl.com> > Same problem as the S100, tho - how do you chisel out an XT > board edge connector at home... I've had fairly good success (the SBC6120 and Elf 2000) using stacking bus connectors, similar to PC/104. They aren't quite as general purpose as a real backplane, but you don't need fingers and you don't need gold plating. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 13:43:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:43:09 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software Message-ID: <0IRG003FDC2K0VX2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:26:47 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Madcrow Maxwell wrote: >> Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at >> least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but >> it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x > >My main problem with it was that it tended to disintegrate over time and >eventually would need a reinstall as functionality would start to break and >free disk space would mysteriously vanish... That was a FAT problem with crashes and power fails. Also some apps that allocate space and never return it. FYI: the worst offenders were MS apps! There are patches that can be applied and last version (b) was better. But in the end FAT is not robust. >All modern OSes (MS-based and otherwise) seem to suffer from that, but Win95 >was the worst. > >> And before people go bashing 95 anymore, I want to go on record as >> saying it's one of the few M$ products I actually like. It runs well >> on even a 486 with only 8 MB of RAM > >Not for program development it doesn't. Been there, done that! I can believe >it works well enough for WP and the like though. The environment descrived is too small. While a 486/66 is fine "ve found that 16mb or better 32mb of was more effective than faster cpu. >I'd say it was the point where the downward spiral of ever-increasing >application bloat started though. I don't remember Win 3.x apps or even apps >on other platforms being as colossal as the typical Win95 app was, and it's >all gradually got worse since then. I'm not sure whether Win95 itself is the >root cause of that or not - probably not, but it's strange that it happened >around that time period. Bigger OS and fancier apps with inefficient compilers that drag truckloads along for the ride needed or not contribute. Whats scary is when I see apps written in script languages that compile to some intermediate form that isn't native then we know it's convenience rather than efficientcy. Allison >cheers > >Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 13:54:25 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:54:25 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00DNYCLBAE04@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Robert Armstrong" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:38:37 -0800 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> Same problem as the S100, tho - how do you chisel out an XT >> board edge connector at home... > > I've had fairly good success (the SBC6120 and Elf 2000) using stacking bus >connectors, similar to PC/104. They aren't quite as general purpose as a >real backplane, but you don't need fingers and you don't need gold plating. > >Bob This is a solution I've used as well that is cheap and has few negatives if any. One advantage is the connector is not married to any bus. I've used multiple 20, 34 and 40wide ribbon with IDC connectors for a bus (alternate grounds and power) that performs well at decent speeds. If one cable is not enough pins then use two side by side. It's advantage is common, cheap and you can taylor bus width to your needs. Since the "back plane" is short typically the problems of ringing and cross talk are minimal and adaquate grounds keep it clean. Allison From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Tue Dec 13 14:09:36 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:09:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44591.207.71.246.177.1134504576.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> On Sun, December 11, 2005 6:57 am, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Highly recommended as a "fun project" if you like the idea of building a > functional and unique computer (note: I mean really building, not "putting > a PC board in a box"). > > If you have questions after all that, I am happy to answer them. If there is > enough interest, I would also consider putting together a page specifically > about CUBIX and building a machine to run it Building a 6809 CUBIX machine does sound fun. I've been looking for a smaller project I can work with over time; I keep getting older computers (mostly sun or macintosh) and fixing them up, but then they're cleaned up and running and I get bored with them. I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a "reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce costs, I'd be up for that. Dave, are there any areas of CUBIX that you have plans to improve or features to add, but don't have time? If I'm going to build a little system to softwarily tinker with, I might as well make something useful out of my tinkering. Jeff From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Dec 13 14:10:13 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:10:13 +0100 Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi, I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. Anybody know a download site ? Reason: I won those two blinkenlight panels on eBay a few weeks ago, and want to add the blinkenlight RealConsole with SIMH to demonstrate the ease with which you can make your own "old big iron" system *if* you do not have the space or AC power to run such a beast. I will always admit that nothing beats the real thing though! I checked bitsavers, but as far as I can see the specific versions I am looking for are not there, and it is not clever to download some 10 Mb just to find out it's the wrong manual ... I know, I have way too much projects going, but hey, it beats hanging in the pub :-) - Henk, PA8PDP BTW. if I have the HP 211x panel wired, I will probably have questions about HP software like which OS, etc. I am reaaly totally blank on HP. I was only an end-user on HP64000 systems as a software engineer using editor, assembler, compiler, emulator and state analyser IIRC, with 8085 (yuck), 6801 (ahh) and 68000 (yes!) pods). I still love the way the HP64000 screen used the soft key concept. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 13 13:36:31 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:36:31 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439F22BF.2020004@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 >> From: Jim Leonard >> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Allison wrote: >> >>>A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal >>>briefs and the like. >> >>Why? > > > At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry > as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents > better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. I think this is a regional thing, at least to some extent, but it has changed a little. (I'm "primary tech nerd" for a lawyer friend, so I have the latest skinny) WP is still the common application of choice, but where most electronic documents were submitted as WordPerfect documents 3-5 years ago, PDF is now the preferred submission format. This has a lot to do with the perceived security of a PDF document, and the fact that it's mostly application-agnostic. Please note that I said _perceived_ security! I do know it's not difficult to alter a PDF. The public, for the most part, doesn't. Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 14:38:11 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:38:11 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 Message-ID: <0IRG00MICEM97SB0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > From: Doc Shipley > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:36:31 -0500 > To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Allison wrote: >>>Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 >>> From: Jim Leonard >>> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>>Allison wrote: >>> >>>>A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal >>>>briefs and the like. >>> >>>Why? >> >> >> At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry >> as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents >> better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. > > I think this is a regional thing, at least to some extent, but it has >changed a little. (I'm "primary tech nerd" for a lawyer friend, so I >have the latest skinny) Same here. I'd heard most had gone with PDF. If all else fails the paper version still rules. > WP is still the common application of choice, but where most >electronic documents were submitted as WordPerfect documents 3-5 years >ago, PDF is now the preferred submission format. This has a lot to do >with the perceived security of a PDF document, and the fact that it's >mostly application-agnostic. > > Please note that I said _perceived_ security! I do know it's not >difficult to alter a PDF. The public, for the most part, doesn't. Yep rodger that. It's far harder to do a file compare to the original and be sure you r getting an unalterd PDF. Word however, you have to be careful as it's possible to see previous versions and changes! Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 09:37:44 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:37:44 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> References: <20051212204251.42420685.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512132043.jBDKhbIQ008244@mail2.magma.ca> > I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the > web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a > computer, so can you! ;-) > > Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) Would you be interested in collaborating on such a page - With the recent interest, I've been thinking about putting a web page detailing the construction of a 6809 system capable of running CUBIX ... If I can get you to do most of that work, that would be great! :-) Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 09:39:10 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:39:10 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512131113100398.1E012EFA@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRG003SI9QO0VQ2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512132045.jBDKj3FD015129@mail4.magma.ca> > On 12/13/2005 at 1:52 PM Allison wrote: > > >STD really is the Z80 processor bus. A good choice would be SS50 (SWTP) > >as it's 6800/6809 based. > > Hmmm, maybe originally, but I've seen STD bus cards for just about any 8- > or 16-bit CPU you could imagine. Didn't Fujitsu put out a 6809-based STD > bus PC? I think they called it the FM-7 or some such. > > And STD bus is still in use. I have a 6809 based STD card - not from Fujitsu... IIRC something beginning with 'D' - if anyone is interested, I'll dig it out and get the name. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 13 14:46:18 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:46:18 -0500 Subject: 3.25 diskettes References: <20051211034808.17646.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com><200512110843590402.132BE495@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <019101c60026$44f37140$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Possibly equal... the Canon Ion digital camera (don't recall the model > number offhand) used 2" floppies too. I remember being utterly > astonished at the microengineering that had gone into that drive > mechanism (the entire mechanism opened up and dropped down when you > ejected the disk). Some information for web searches The Canon RC-250 "Xap Shot" used 2" VF-50 diskettes in so-called Hi-VF (Video Floppy) format, which I believe was analog single frame video. The evolutionary missing link between the Camcorder and the DigiCam. Not sure if the 2" diskettes were the same as the digitally formatable ones. John A. the things they had to do before flash memory! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 14:47:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:47:30 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00N3WF1T5801@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Jeff Davis" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:09:36 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sun, December 11, 2005 6:57 am, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Highly recommended as a "fun project" if you like the idea of building a >> functional and unique computer (note: I mean really building, not "putting >> a PC board in a box"). >> >> If you have questions after all that, I am happy to answer them. If there is >> enough interest, I would also consider putting together a page specifically >> about CUBIX and building a machine to run it > >Building a 6809 CUBIX machine does sound fun. I've been looking for a smaller >project I can work with over time; I keep getting older computers (mostly sun >or macintosh) and fixing them up, but then they're cleaned up and running and >I get bored with them. It's why I build too. >I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do >board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a >"reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce >costs, I'd be up for that. Wirewrap is ok to a point. If the chip count is too high I think harder about doing it. the hands and eyes arent what they used to be. >Dave, are there any areas of CUBIX that you have plans to improve or features >to add, but don't have time? If I'm going to build a little system to >softwarily tinker with, I might as well make something useful out of my >tinkering. I'd considered it for my self but the cost for boards demands a commitment in cash up front I cant justify for a one off version. Marketing a board requires a stable parts supply so what's layed out can be built by everyone. That always leads to being in the kitting business which is a remarkably time/money consuming process. You can ask Bob (SparetimeGizmos) about this. His kitted systems are nicely done and I suspect there are more than a few hours invested in getting it all together and supporting it. If you want a really super ELF (COSMAC 1802) or a 6120 (PDP8 in CMOS clothes) he's got two winners there. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 14:49:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:49:50 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00052F5OUFE0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: dave04a at dunfield.com > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:37:44 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> I'm hoping to take lots of pictures & basically make the design free on the >> web as I do this, mainly to show people if an idiot like me can make a >> computer, so can you! ;-) >> >> Oh, and for the record: Cubix looks *kewl*. ;-) > >Would you be interested in collaborating on such a page - With the recent >interest, I've been thinking about putting a web page detailing the construction >of a 6809 system capable of running CUBIX ... If I can get you to do most of >that work, that would be great! :-) > >Dave > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. I've gone and started something. ;) I'd be willing to be in on this too. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 09:45:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:45:58 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <44591.207.71.246.177.1134504576.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> > Building a 6809 CUBIX machine does sound fun. I've been looking for a smaller > project I can work with over time; I keep getting older computers (mostly sun > or macintosh) and fixing them up, but then they're cleaned up and running and > I get bored with them. > > I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do > board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a > "reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce > costs, I'd be up for that. Humm.... Soldering chips on a manufactured PCB (that someone else designed) isn't really "building your own" (although it's a step ahead of what most people today consider as "building a computer"). If you really want the experience, design a system, prototype it and debug it - you will learn TONS more than you would by soldering chips to a board. It's not nearly as hard as you might think (start small). > Dave, are there any areas of CUBIX that you have plans to improve or features > to add, but don't have time? If I'm going to build a little system to > softwarily tinker with, I might as well make something useful out of my > tinkering. Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my main computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It was however done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until some more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 13 14:13:26 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:13:26 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <44591.207.71.246.177.1134504576.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> References: <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44591.207.71.246.177.1134504576.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> Message-ID: <439F2B66.1020300@mdrconsult.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > On Sun, December 11, 2005 6:57 am, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do > board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a > "reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce > costs, I'd be up for that. > > Dave, are there any areas of CUBIX that you have plans to improve or features > to add, but don't have time? If I'm going to build a little system to > softwarily tinker with, I might as well make something useful out of my > tinkering. I'll second Jeff on all counts. Something small and simple, but extensible, would be most attractive to me. I'll do what I can to help, but recently my spare time is totally unpredictable. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 15:05:46 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:05:46 +0000 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439F37AA.40703@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit >> to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. > > I needn't have worried... > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. Tony et al, FYI - the following was posted to comp.sys.acorn.hardware earlier on from Andrew Ray of Intelligent Interfaces in response to Eelco's post there: <<< In the early 1980s Intelligent Interfaces designed, developed, manufactured and supported the Acorn IEEE488 Interface for the BBC Microcomputer. It was based on the Texas TMS9914 IC to provide the talker, listener and controller functions. All interfaces supplied by Acorn were housed in a modified (by Intelligent Interfaces) version of the plastic case originally used for the Teletext Adapter. There was never an Acorn-designed IEEE488 Interface for the BBC Microcomputer. Intelligent Interfaces never supplied the interface in a different case before supplying it to Acorn. However, after a number of years, when Acorn discontinued it as a product, Intelligent Interfaces supplied the interface direct to customers in a customized standard metal case. I do not think that the software for any of the third party, Watford, Procyon, etc IEEE488 Interfaces for the BBC Microcomputer was compatible with the Acorn interface because they used different contoller ICs. I remember that Acorn advertised an IEEE488 Interface for the Series I, II, III and IV systems based on the Motorola MC684448P which only provided the talker and listener functions. However, while designing and developing the Acorn IEEE488 Interface I was never shown one. The interface was supplied with an IEEE filing system (IEEEFS), in ROM. Subsequently, the new firmware (NIEEE), provided in a sideways ROM, was written to enable the interface to be used with the National Semiconductors 32000 series processor based Cambridge Coprocessor and Workstation but could also be used with other coprocessors and standalone BBC Microcomputers. It gave much higher data transfer rates, making it ideal for use with digital storage oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers etc. >>> copied here for the benefit of any interested people who don't read c.s.a.h. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 13 15:14:00 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:14:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: DRIVPARM (Was: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <20051213125053.D18085@shell.lmi.net> > > The "official", "standardized" support of 3.5" 720K in 3.20 was with use > > of DRIVER.SYS and/or DRIVPARM. DRIVPARM was incompatible with IBM's BIOS, > > and therefore was undocumented in PC-DOS. > On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > Do you remember the details of the problem with DRIVPARM? I never researched the actual causes. Data (from about 1986 on) : MS-DOS with DRIVPARM worked properly, as documented, with half a dozen generic 286 ATs Although undocumented in the PC-DOS manual, PC-DOS with DRIVPARM worked properly in the same machines. Both MS-DOS with DRIVPARM and PC-DOS with DRIVPARM, used with some real IBM PC/ATs and PS/2 (model 50?) gave "unrecognized command in CONFIG.SYS" (an error message that probably resulted from incorrect handling of the problem) A couple of generic 286 ATs that worked with DRIVPARM ceased working with DRIVPARM when the BIOS ROMs were successfully replaced with EPROM copies of IBM's AT BIOS. Conclusions, subject to further analysis and experimentation: DRIVPARM exists in both PC-DOS and MS-DOS, although undocumented in PC-DOS. Behavior of PC-DOS and MS-DOS appears to be the same. Neither will work with some real IBM computers. Change of BIOS altered whether DRIVPARM would work. Therefore, it appears to be a BIOS related issue, rather than motherboard, or brand of OS. I have found the discussions of DRIVPARM on the web quite amusing. Particularly the one that Scott Stevens referenced, where nobody questioned the FDC, and one fellow insisted that there needed to be a path for DRIVPARM!, and that said path (to an internal config.sys option) could be set by AUTOEXEC.BAT (which is processed AFTER CONFIG.SYS). From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Dec 13 15:17:29 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:17:29 -0500 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 15:45 +0000, dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > > Building a 6809 CUBIX machine does sound fun. I've been looking for a smaller > > project I can work with over time; I keep getting older computers (mostly sun > > or macintosh) and fixing them up, but then they're cleaned up and running and > > I get bored with them. > > > > I'm not a hardware design guy though, and wirewrapping is out for me. I can do > > board stuffing and soldering, so if anyone else is going to design a > > "reference" pcb that people can go in on and order in some quantity to reduce > > costs, I'd be up for that. > > Humm.... Soldering chips on a manufactured PCB (that someone else designed) > isn't really "building your own" (although it's a step ahead of what most people > today consider as "building a computer"). If you really want the experience, > design a system, prototype it and debug it - you will learn TONS more than you > would by soldering chips to a board. It's not nearly as hard as you might think > (start small). > In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it in 2 hours after the instructor had made several changes to either the wire wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL changes. The 2nd semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX system. That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines (heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) burner. What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's a reasonable price for one? Thanks! Brian From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 13 15:18:37 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:18:37 -0800 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) Message-ID: Speaking of Geoworks, anyone have a copy of the rare 8088 devkit for GEOS? IMHO, it's lack of wide distribution of a devkit that killed GEOS the deadest. That and flying toasters.... I probably would have used it for my main desktop if I could have coded for it.... I'm also looking for a copy of the devkit for Windows 1.0X. Being able to code for Windows 1 would kick a**. Eric On 12/12/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Allison wrote: > > If you used Geoworks, or > Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or Win 3.1, you > could > use any font you want and the print subsystem would just rasterize it as > graphics. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 13 15:18:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:18:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <00a901c60011$7a7cef90$6401a8c0@barry> References: <00a901c60011$7a7cef90$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <20051213131735.L18085@shell.lmi.net> > I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be willing to > part with, or make disk images for me? I have to restore an application > on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, and we've lost the disks (probably > about 10 years ago...) Unless there is specific reason not to, I'd recommend using MS-DOS 3.31 instead. It takes care of the 32M hard drive partition issue. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 13 15:20:15 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:20:15 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <40AD9812-6C1E-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am dinsdag, 13.12.05, um 16:45 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb dave04a at dunfield.com: >> > > Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my > main > computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It > was however > done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until > some > more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. > A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... Jos Dreesen From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 13 15:35:00 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:35:00 -0700 Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:10:13 +0100. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and /= > or HP 2117F. > Anybody know a download site ? If you're willing to purchase a manual, you might try here. Oddly enough, it happens to be a company local to me! I didn't even know it existed.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Dec 13 15:36:33 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:36:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> > > Speaking of Geoworks, anyone have a copy of the rare 8088 devkit for GEOS? > IMHO, it's lack of wide distribution of a devkit that killed GEOS the > deadest. That and flying toasters.... I probably would have used it for my > main desktop if I could have coded for it.... > > Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does anyone know who developed it? Cheers, Bryan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 15:41:13 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:41:13 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213132445.03b9ca40@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051211160159.RGX11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051212002214.GEVV9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213123723.050fe120@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051213132445.03b9ca40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <439F3FF9.1050808@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Same problem as the S100, tho - how do you chisel out an XT board edge > connector at home... > Umm hacksaw? ------ ---- cut ------ cut > > But a 4Mhz Hitachi 6309 *was* made, and clock for clock it was even > faster than the 6809, had a hardware divide and some 32-bit > operations. Schweet! > I know they can clock @ 3 MHZ ... as for 4 mhz I don't know if you can get any. Also standard 68xx I/O is only 2 MHZ. If you know of faster IO let me know where. > > Crappy hardware? I just pulled out my durned-near-20 year old CoCo3 > (which at the time was about 35 degrees F) plugged 'er in (yea, it was > stupid, but I was in a hurry) and it sparked right up. I posit that > machines today are the toys, and the machines of yore were the serious > business tools. > I was thinking of the expansion port. > > Yup, and I drooled over the Gimix ads in Hot CoCo and Rainbow as well. > Boy howdy would I love to have one of those now. > Now that was a nice machine, too bad rat-shack never sold them. That was all I had for a computer store. >> Just where are you that it is 30 below? > > > Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan on the border of Ontario, Canada. Move to Canada -- here is a comfortable 40 below. :) I think today it is around 30F , just ample to have ice everywhere. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 15:54:25 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:54:25 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <439F4311.8010808@jetnet.ab.ca> dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: >Humm.... Soldering chips on a manufactured PCB (that someone else designed) >isn't really "building your own" (although it's a step ahead of what most people >today consider as "building a computer"). If you really want the experience, >design a system, prototype it and debug it - you will learn TONS more than you >would by soldering chips to a board. It's not nearly as hard as you might think >(start small). > > > Well since I am playing with CPLD's I need to know lot about the insides of a computer chip. For me I don't think I could go wire wrap as I don't think they make 84 pin plcc sockets. Did not BYTE have somebody doing a 6809 system. They also had a nice 6502 home brew too, on small cards, > > >Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my main >computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It was however >done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until some >more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. > > > I just want source code for a Good C Compiler. I don't think I can port 6809 asm code to my cpu since CPLD design is something like a 6800. 6800 seems more likely. [AC - 18/9 ] accumulator 18 or 9 bits -- bytes are unsigned [DP/SP 18/13] direct page - sp zero filled 13..1 or stack [IX - 18/9 ] index reg [PC - 18 ] program counter >Regards, >Dave > > Ben alias woodelf From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 13 15:55:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] Message-ID: <200512132155.NAA16381@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Brian Wheeler" ---snip--- > >That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines >(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) >burner. > >What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven >burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's >a reasonable price for one? > Hi I recommend not getting one at all. I recommend using flash memory. There are a number of boot flash memories that would work well. You put some simple code in the boot part to get things bootstrapped up and then use the other segments of the flash for your development. Of course, you need to program the flash for the first time. For this, you could get someone to program one with your bootstrap code. Just remember, the bootstrap code should be something really simple. You might even make it something simple with a parallel port that handshakes the data. That way you could even avoid debugging the initialization sequence for a serial chip. The bootstrap code should only load into memory a fixed amount of code and then jump to that code. 256 bytes should be enough. From there, you increase the complexity as much as you like. The parallel port could be just 2 bits out and 2 bits in. Just my thoughts. Dwight >Thanks! >Brian > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 13 15:58:12 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:58:12 -0700 Subject: cctalk/cctech Message-ID: Does all cctech traffic get dup'ed to cctalk? I am subscribed to both lists and seem to be getting lots of duplicates. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 13 16:01:01 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:01:01 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 39 Message-ID: <01C60006.F78C2B00@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message--------------- Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Al Hartman Subject: XT expansion (was Fancy Font?) BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al ----------Reply--------------- Might have both for ya; contact me off-list pls. mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 16:03:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:03:04 -0800 Subject: DRIVPARM (Was: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051213125053.D18085@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051212010429.51179.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <439D08C6.8090102@atarimuseum.com> <200512112153560637.15FF1AC7@10.0.0.252> <439D1AAD.6000300@atarimuseum.com> <20051212123915.P54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121317530005.194D04D2@10.0.0.252> <20051212133626.W54336@shell.lmi.net> <1134491995.439ef95b91fc9@webmail.secure-wi.com> <20051213125053.D18085@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512131403040493.1E9CBE23@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 1:14 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Although undocumented in the PC-DOS manual, PC-DOS with DRIVPARM worked >properly in the same machines. There's a tickle at the back of my brain that says that one of the versions of DOS allowed the use of DRIVPARM, but only through a very shifty "workaround". IIRC (and I'm not sure that I do), you had to prefix the word "DRIVPARM" with a hex FF byte. Can someone with a better memory confirm this one? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 16:05:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:05:58 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRG004S39NF4VI4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRG004S39NF4VI4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439F45C6.9090906@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >I sure a Xylinx mumblefrap with all the right goop could get you >that. However with 8k srams, 8keproms and a amazingly small >handfull of parts.. As drawn by Dave 27 chips gets you 48k ram, >OS in 8k Eprom, 2 serial ports, FDC that can handle 4 disks >(360/720 5.25 or 720k 3.5" and 8" is basicaly there). If you >recognize that the six 8Ksrams can be replaced with one 64k sram >you knock off 5 chips and the FDC portion is 10-11 chips alone >(basic 765 with ttl around it). If one could find a smc9229 FDI >or mod the circuit for 37C65 that chip count gets much smaller. >I happen to have some 64k srams and the majikal super rare >custom FDI so the chip count will be under 20. As small single >board systems go that is a very small chip count with out using >PALS/GALS. > > > I think a Floppy chip with a real built in data separator is the way to go. Also a good dma is needed, as having the cpu do floppy I/O leaves no margin for serial I/O. The other thing is a NICE terminal to go with the system. I don't want to boot windows or dos to run a terminal. For development work a PC is a good idea until you get a OS running. I have a used Altos IV here, from what the keyboard says but I don't know of how many years of life the terminal may have left. >Allison > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 16:08:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:08:30 +0000 Subject: cctalk/cctech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <439F465E.50903@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Does all cctech traffic get dup'ed to cctalk? Yep. > I am subscribed to both lists and seem to be getting lots of duplicates. Yep. :-) Pick one or the other, not both. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 16:11:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:11:40 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00MAYIY1VIJ0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Jos Dreesen > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:20:15 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Am dinsdag, 13.12.05, um 16:45 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb >dave04a at dunfield.com: >>> >> >> Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my >> main >> computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It >> was however >> done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until >> some >> more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. >> > >A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > > Jos Dreesen Theres a design on the net for a decent digital one that was from a NEC apnote. Someone found it a while back and I didn't copy the URL. If no one finds it I can with extreme pain scan the apnote published by NEC and also appeared in EDN May 13 1981. If that isn't available there is a simple but usable data sep that was used on the IBM XT FDC based on a TTL counter chip or two. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 16:15:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:15:29 -0500 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] Message-ID: <0IRG002T3J4E8XZM@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] > From: "Dwight Elvey" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:55:36 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Brian Wheeler" >---snip--- >> >>That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines >>(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) >>burner. >> >>What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven >>burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's >>a reasonable price for one? >> > >Hi > I recommend not getting one at all. I recommend using >flash memory. There are a number of boot flash memories >that would work well. You put some simple code in the >boot part to get things bootstrapped up and then use >the other segments of the flash for your development. > Of course, you need to program the flash for the first >time. For this, you could get someone to program one >with your bootstrap code. Just remember, the bootstrap >code should be something really simple. You might even >make it something simple with a parallel port that >handshakes the data. That way you could even avoid >debugging the initialization sequence for a serial >chip. The bootstrap code should only load into >memory a fixed amount of code and then jump to that >code. 256 bytes should be enough. From there, you >increase the complexity as much as you like. > The parallel port could be just 2 bits out and >2 bits in. > Just my thoughts. >Dwight For CUBIX that means a bit of work as the OS is rom resident. Building a parallel port EEprom burner is trivial, Eprom for a limited design say one type is fairly easy. Code the drive the parallel port is a PC coding problem and I hate PCs. there are PCport designs on the net. myself I have a S100 board that does 2716->27128 and through a hack I've done 27512s and 27010s. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 16:12:41 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:12:41 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and on some "abandonware" web sites that I can point you to, the poster > knows darned well that the owner is still around and reachable via a simple > email and doesn't ask because he (or she) knows what the answer will be. > That's what makes my blood boil. And what the heck, if the web site's in > Belgium and the owner's here in the US, what do they have to fear? I'm curious, what is it that makes your blood boil more? The distribution of the software itself, or the hypocrasy of not even trying to ask for permission? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 16:13:34 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:13:34 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Google's usenet archive isn't what it once was though, now that they > obscure email addresses and only let you contact authors through their > site; if the author's using a spam-trapped address or has changed > address format (but is still at the same location) then it's next to > useless. You can't view them directly, but if you click on Reply To Author it does get the email to them. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 16:21:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:21:32 -0800 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <200512132155.NAA16381@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512132155.NAA16381@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200512131421320988.1EADA827@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 1:55 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > I recommend not getting one at all... Unless you can find a surplused burner for cheap or have need to program some of the older chips, Dwight's got the right idea. I've got an M2L EZ-EP burner that I use only very rarely because, let's face it--UV EPROMs are yesterday's technology and don't really offer very much over modern flash. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 16:22:54 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:22:54 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00IFWJGSK141@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:05:58 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I think a Floppy chip with a real built in data separator is the way to go. Find a37c65 or 9266. no big deal using raw ttl as then you can do ANY data rate. >Also a good dma is needed, as having the cpu do floppy I/O leaves >no margin for serial I/O. Not required. Small system, nice addition but pumps up complexity more than a bit. most of the S100 CP/M systems (and some of the SBCs) are non DMA and not even interrupts for serial IO. All polled. Not as nice but hardly serious. >The other thing is a NICE terminal to go with the system. I don't want >to boot windows or dos to run a terminal. For development work a PC is >a good idea until you get a OS running. I have a used Altos IV here, > from what the keyboard says but I don't know of how many years of >life the terminal may have left. Fix it, build one or find a VT220,320,320 whatever. myself I plan to buld a subsystem terminal but for the time being a VT320 or a DEC VK170 for those that know what that is. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 16:25:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:25:14 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <01C60006.F78C2B00@MSE_D03> References: <01C60006.F78C2B00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200512131425140599.1EB109D0@10.0.0.252> >From: Al Hartman >Subject: XT expansion (was Fancy Font?) > >BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing >to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it >only has 256k. I've got a Quadram Quadboard (clock, serial, parallel+RAM) with the original driver diskette, which might do just as well. Let me know if you're interested. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 16:26:52 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:26:52 -0600 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <439F4AAC.9020904@oldskool.org> Allison wrote: > At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry > as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents > better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. Hm. I've never understood that; one of my favorite word processors of all time was Microsoft Word for DOS (the "lotus menu" versions, not the "pull down menu" last version released). I'd never had a problem with footnotes, citations, etc. when I used it in the late 1980s. Word for DOS version 4 (and maybe 5, whichever retained the "lotus" style menus) is one of the few instances of Microsoft engineering a decent product. Sure, they lifted some elements from VISI-ON (like the "lotus" menus and crude WYSIWYG), but I've never considered an interface to be enforcable by copyright (if they were, we'd have stupid lawsuits over which shortcut keys are used for certain functions across programs, etc.). It was probably bloated by 128K (I never understood why the later versions needed 384K minimum) but it worked really well. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:29:50 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:29:50 -0600 Subject: 8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?) Message-ID: You can buy these new from JDR Microdevices for $28.88. You have to use this one as the primary disk controller, but it supports up to four 360kB, 720kB, 1.2MB or 1.44MB floppy drives. http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=MCT-FDC-HD4 I have an earlier version that could be used as a secondary controller. I've been using it for 15 years at least. The only changes to Config.sys or Autoexec.bat that are needed are to point to the hard drive: it gets bumped up one drive letter for each floppy you add (my one 3.5" floppy is drive C: and the hard drive is then D:). Message: 12 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Al Hartman Subject: Fancy Font? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20051213161412.18248.qmail at web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it only has 256k. I have to find one of those controller cards that will support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton Computer Festival next spring... Al From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 16:34:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:34:58 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <439F4C92.2060207@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >but it would make the entry of an address (16-bit) cumbersome. >You must enter it as an 8-bit high and an 8-bit low address. >I'd definately would go for 16 switches in this case, and also >16 LEDs for the address. Perhaps a matter of taste ... > > But come to think of it,. was not the 6809 board first designed for your PDP 11 interface?. More than ample switches and lights. > >What if you need access to xxx.nnn where xxx != 000 or 777? >Why pose limits that early in the design? You might regret such >a decision later ... > > In my case most front panel work will be simple test programs or booting from rom in upper memory or testing I/O devices. Since the CPLD cpu data bus is 9 bits wide that is the width I have to use for address load from the front panel in the current design. I have 1 or two bits free for address select switches that can go into the control CPLD that can be sign extended into the PC. One goal is have only 38 control and data i/o lines to emulate a fictional 40 pin dip. 6909 comes to mind for a phoney chip ID too. So far I am using 2 CPLD's for the bit slices, and 1 CPLD for control. A 4 th CPLD will be bus and I/O buffering. The remainder on the PCB is some 6821's and 6850's as well as16kx9 static ram. Front panel leds are driven by the bit slices. The design just fits in the CPLD's so I don't think I can experiment with the instruction set any more. > >- Henk, PA8PDP > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 16:36:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:36:07 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 4:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I'm curious, what is it that makes your blood boil more? The distribution >of the software itself, or the hypocrasy of not even trying to ask for >permission? It's honestly hard to say--suppose after a business trip, you arrived home to find your car gone. Two hours later, your neighbor shows up with it. You confront him and get any or all of the following: "I borrowed it because you weren't using it" "I called but you didn't answer your phone" "I didn't ask because I knew you'd say "no"" Which would make you more angry? How angry would you get if your neighbor kept borrowing your car without asking? How angry would you get if he allowed his friends to drive it also? Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 13 16:36:43 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:36:43 -0800 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: At 4:36 PM -0500 12/13/05, Bryan Pope wrote: >Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does >anyone know who developed it? Wasn't that "Digital Research", the same people that did CP/M? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Dec 13 16:45:42 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:45:42 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? Message-ID: Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 16:53:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:53:07 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRG00GMOKV4GHF3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: Jos Dreesen > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:20:15 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Am dinsdag, 13.12.05, um 16:45 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb >dave04a at dunfield.com: >>> >> >> Possibly - Although Cubix was originally designed to be the OS for my >> main >> computer, and by that fact is pretty close to what I envisioned. It >> was however >> done 25+ years ago, and there is room for improvement. I'd wait until >> some >> more people have gotten into it and see what feedback develops. >> > >A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > > Jos Dreesen one possible design but not tested. There are others that are better. www.analog-innovations.com/SED/FloppyDataExtractor.pdf From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 16:51:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:51:49 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439F2077.6050200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <8dd2d95c0512130524h5eccf986sd2114b0cb036bc31@mail.gmail.com> <439F2077.6050200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439F5085.6060900@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: >> Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking system, at >> least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as Linux or even NT, but >> it got the job done and got it done significantly better than 3.x > > My main problem with it was that it tended to disintegrate over time and > eventually would need a reinstall as functionality would start to break > and free disk space would mysteriously vanish... Yes, this is Microsoft Cancer(tm). It exists on all of the DOS-legacy versions (95, 98, 98se, ME). What prompted me to move from 98 to 2000 was that, at some point, I lost the ability to drag icons. I could delete them, right-click-to-get-properties them, etc. but not drag once icon onto another to get things to happen, which is functionality I had become accustomed to. A week later, things magically started working again. I'm not sure which infurated me more -- the fact that I lost the ability to drag icons, or the fact that it started working again with no involvement on my part. Both were terms for dismissal ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Useddec at aol.com Tue Dec 13 16:55:02 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:55:02 EST Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? Message-ID: <234.397dbc9.30d0ab46@aol.com> Hi Julian, I have complete M8189's for $100. Thanks, Paul From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 16:54:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:54:55 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439F513F.6080501@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/13/2005 at 4:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>I'm curious, what is it that makes your blood boil more? The distribution >>of the software itself, or the hypocrasy of not even trying to ask for >>permission? > > It's honestly hard to say--suppose after a business trip, you arrived home > to find your car gone. Two hours later, your neighbor shows up with it. > You confront him and get any or all of the following: > > "I borrowed it because you weren't using it" > "I called but you didn't answer your phone" > "I didn't ask because I knew you'd say "no"" > > Which would make you more angry? How angry would you get if your neighbor > kept borrowing your car without asking? How angry would you get if he > allowed his friends to drive it also? I like the above MUCH more than any single-sentence answer you could have given me. You, sir, are awesome :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Dec 13 16:59:08 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fujitsu SMD drive Message-ID: <20051213225908.40312.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Recently received a Fujitsu SMD drive (85M) which seems to be in great shape. Fortunately the heads were locked when the drive was last powered down. I have the Xylogics card and cables and also various power cables. I noticed however that the drive does have 4 mounting points with rubber bushes. Does anyone have any experience in installing these drives, and what the mechanical requirements are? Were there special cases to contain the drives for example? Thanks Ian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 13 17:00:18 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:00:18 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <00ba01c60038$fd22e950$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 5:36 PM Subject: Re: PC-DOS 3.3 > On 12/13/2005 at 4:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >I'm curious, what is it that makes your blood boil more? The distribution > >of the software itself, or the hypocrasy of not even trying to ask for > >permission? > > It's honestly hard to say--suppose after a business trip, you arrived home > to find your car gone. Two hours later, your neighbor shows up with it. > You confront him and get any or all of the following: > > "I borrowed it because you weren't using it" > "I called but you didn't answer your phone" > "I didn't ask because I knew you'd say "no"" > > Which would make you more angry? How angry would you get if your neighbor > kept borrowing your car without asking? How angry would you get if he > allowed his friends to drive it also? > > Cheers, > Chuck If I broke into your house while you were on a business trip and made copies of every application CD you own and used it would you even know about it? Physically taking something and just digitally copying it (while leaving the original in place) is not the same thing. One is theft, the other is a copyright infringement. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Dec 13 17:02:51 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:02:51 -0800 Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512131502.52101.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 13:35, Richard wrote: > In article > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, > > "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > > I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and > > /= or HP 2117F. > > Anybody know a download site ? > > If you're willing to purchase a manual, you might try here. Oddly > enough, it happens to be a company local to me! I didn't even know it > existed.... They're good people - I've bought a number of mahuals from them... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:07:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:07:24 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Google's usenet archive isn't what it once was though, now that they >> obscure email addresses and only let you contact authors through their >> site; if the author's using a spam-trapped address or has changed >> address format (but is still at the same location) then it's next to >> useless. > > You can't view them directly, but if you click on Reply To Author it > does get the email to them. Even if they've used a munged email address, as most people posting to Usenet do these days? I can't imagine teams of Google staff reading every single message posted daily to Usenet and sanitising spam-trapped email addresses for the purpose of their archives. And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back who's no longer on that address? In the past, if the company was obvious in the email address, I'd look up the company name and politely contact them to see if the person I wanted to reach was still there but just on a different address. That's no longer possible now either... What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and taken functionality away from the user. It's either Google Groups and not linked to Usenet, or it's a Usenet interface and should have the same functionality. What *really* bugs me is that Google may well have the only copy of such a historical archive of data, so it's not like you can even take your business elsewhere to someone who understands the historical importance of such an archive. If there was a choice, I'd send a polite email to Google saying why I thought they were muppets, and just go and use someone who gave you actual access to a Usenet archive rather than an abbreviated version of one. *sigh* J. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 13 17:08:29 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:08:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Dec 13, 5 02:36:43 pm" Message-ID: <200512132308.PAA13976@floodgap.com> > >Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does > >anyone know who developed it? > > Wasn't that "Digital Research", the same people that did CP/M? It was. The Atari STs ran a version of it. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein -------------------------- From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 13 17:08:42 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:08:42 -0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005701c6003a$2aa5a600$5b01a8c0@pc1> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's a quiz--how much do you think the old song "Happy Birthday to > You" is worth? Bet you thought it was PD. Surely noone believes "Happy Birthday" is PD! I'm reasonably sure you can sing it at a party (even at a MickyD) without being arrested (always assuming you are not a staff member, of course). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:09:58 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:09:58 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? In-Reply-To: <234.397dbc9.30d0ab46@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm just interested in upgrading my M8189 on the cheap. Being able to boot MSCP without a bootstrap isn't worth $100 to me, but thank you for the offer. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Useddec at aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 4:55 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? > > Hi Julian, > > I have complete M8189's for $100. > > Thanks, Paul From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 13 17:10:02 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:10:02 -0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005801c6003a$5a599000$5b01a8c0@pc1> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Which would make you more angry? If he made a digital (or analogue!) copy, none of them would bother me, unless I owned an interest in the car manufacturer. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 13 17:13:28 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:13:28 -0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> Jules Richardson wrote: > What *really* bugs me is that Google may well have the only copy of > such a historical archive of data, so it's not like you can even take > your business elsewhere to someone who understands the historical > importance of such an archive. If there was a choice, I'd send a > polite email to Google saying why I thought they were muppets, and > just go and use someone who gave you actual access to a Usenet > archive rather than an abbreviated version of one. Google at least put time and effort (and probably money) into preserving the stuff so that at least you know exactly why you want to get in touch with So-and-So. And you can use Google to try and track this person down. As far as I know, they have no monopoly on Usenet news. Anyone else can go back and gather up data from as many tape archives as they can persuade people to part with. They must have been deluged with complaints from people who were having their email address harvested by bots! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:15:03 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:15:03 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F513F.6080501@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> <439F513F.6080501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439F55F7.4080301@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/13/2005 at 4:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> I'm curious, what is it that makes your blood boil more? The >>> distribution >>> of the software itself, or the hypocrasy of not even trying to ask for >>> permission? >> >> It's honestly hard to say--suppose after a business trip, you arrived >> home >> to find your car gone. Two hours later, your neighbor shows up with it. >> You confront him and get any or all of the following: >> >> "I borrowed it because you weren't using it" >> "I called but you didn't answer your phone" >> "I didn't ask because I knew you'd say "no"" >> >> Which would make you more angry? How angry would you get if your >> neighbor >> kept borrowing your car without asking? How angry would you get if he >> allowed his friends to drive it also? > > I like the above MUCH more than any single-sentence answer you could > have given me. You, sir, are awesome :-) Except we're talking about software here which doesn't deteriorate or get damaged by someone else using it. If the same were true of cars, I'd have *no* problem in someone else making use of my vehicle if it wasn't inconveniencing me in any way. It wouldn't make any difference to me whether they used it or not. That doesn't mean I think people should go around copying software without the owner's permission - and should also respect their rights if the author thinks they're going to make money out of it some day. But the car analogy doesn't stand up... What annoys me though is companies who drop old software but don't make copies of the binaries freely available (source code I can understand due to IPR issues). I mean, when seriously are MS going to go selling copies of MSDOS again? Providing nobody goes reselling it for their own financial gain, where's the harm in releasing the binaries? It's not like the binaries can't still be found in places on floppy... cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:15:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:15:58 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E8B25.5030408@retrobbs.org> References: <439E8B25.5030408@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <20051213181558.2ca30eb0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:49:41 +0000 Mark Firestone wrote: > Richard wrote: > > >In article <200512121013520860.18A48FB0 at 10.0.0.252>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > > > > > >>On 12/12/2005 at 4:00 PM Mark Firestone wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I don't suppose anyone has a copy of PC-DOS 3.3 they'd be > >willing to >>part with, or make disk images for me? I have to > >restore an application >>on a PS/2 model 30 that requires it, > >and we've lost the disks (probably >>about 10 years ago...) > >>> > >>> > >>I've got MS-DOS and PC-DOS versions going back to 1.0 on > >file--including >the really reprehensible DOS 4.0, but wherein > >lies the permission to >distribute these things? . > >> > >> > > > >You might enquire here about legitimate purchasable copies of > >old versions of DOS: > > > >I know he regularly seeks out copies of MS-DOS 6.22 for resale. > > He > >may have access to older versions as well. If he does, he will > >send you original media, etc., not a disk copy. > > > > > I understand your position. However, the machine did come with > PC-DOS 3.3, and they own the machine. No one is trying to > pull one over on IBM and have anything that they aren't > entitled to. They just did one of those famous clean outs and > threw the disks away. > Machines of that era did not necessarily 'come' with any version of DOS by default. My father's first IBM-PC could have been bought with just the cassette drive, or if you wanted to buy the floppy controller card and a drive or two, with CP/M-86, or PC-DOS. There wasn't the sort of 'bundling' arrangement that came into vogue later. My first copy of DOS (version 3.1) was one I paid $80 for, which I believe at the time was the going rate for IBM PC-DOS. I remember poreing over that manual from IBM as it was the only documentation I had at the time for the new system software I was learning. At that point in history you could NOT buy MS-DOS in a retail package, but that was the standard way to buy PC-DOS: as an optional add-on to the system. The PC-DOS 3.3 would be a seperate invoice item. Owning the hardware in no way implies the purchaser owned an OS to run on it. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 17:19:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:19:05 -0700 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <439F56E9.2030604@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Wheeler wrote: >In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it in 2 >hours after the instructor had made several changes to either the wire >wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL changes. The 2nd >semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX system. > > > Was that the CMOS pdp chip or a TTL designed PDP? >That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines >(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) >burner. > >What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven >burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's >a reasonable price for one? > > > Use of a EEPROM may be a better idea as I think there are low cost designs that hang off the printer port to burn a eeprom. I think commercial burners run at $399+ but I can't say for sure. >Thanks! >Brian > >. > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:19:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:19:07 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <005701c6003a$2aa5a600$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <005701c6003a$2aa5a600$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <439F56EB.4050900@yahoo.co.uk> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Here's a quiz--how much do you think the old song "Happy Birthday to >> You" is worth? Bet you thought it was PD. > > Surely noone believes "Happy Birthday" is PD! > > I'm reasonably sure you can sing it at a party > (even at a MickyD) without being arrested Although the latest push from the music industry seems to be to kill off lyrics websites. How someone can go around trying to stop people from writing down what even the most tone deaf person can comprehend is beyond me. If you don't want people to listen to your music, don't produce it in the first place - it really is that simple. They'll be trying to ban ears next... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 13 17:19:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:19:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <439F4AAC.9020904@oldskool.org> References: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439F4AAC.9020904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051213151808.G26607@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > WYSIWYG), but I've never considered an interface to be enforcable by copyright > (if they were, we'd have stupid lawsuits over which shortcut keys are used for > certain functions across programs, etc.). Such as the lawsuit by Lotus that crushed Adam Osborne's "Paperback Software" ... and caused Borland to have "write to" instead of "save as" in TurboC From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 17:18:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:18:55 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439F56DF.5070406@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Even if they've used a munged email address, as most people posting to > Usenet do these days? I can't imagine teams of Google staff reading > every single message posted daily to Usenet and sanitising spam-trapped > email addresses for the purpose of their archives. All I know is that I was able to spend 4 minutes tracking down someone based on the email they used in a 1997 USENET posting and they replied (somewhat surprised). It can be done. > And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back who's no > longer on that address? Then Google revealing the address wouldn't help you anyway. Your point again? Don't blame google, blame spammers who ruined it for everyone. > What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and taken > functionality away from the user. The google USENET archive isn't useful or functional? You seriously think that? As for being "the only game in town", they expanded their USENET archive at considerable expense above and beyond the old dejanews archives: http://groups.google.com/group/google.public.support.general/msg/d88f36fb3e2c0aac -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 17:26:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:26:51 -0700 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <00ba01c60038$fd22e950$0500fea9@game> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> <00ba01c60038$fd22e950$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <439F58BB.7080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: >If I broke into your house while you were on a business trip and made copies >of every application CD you own and used it would you even know about it? >Physically taking something and just digitally copying it (while leaving the >original in place) is not the same thing. One is theft, the other is a >copyright infringement. > > > Oh and make sure the thief can't get hurt ... he can sue for damages because of your neglect. >. > > From CCTalk at catcorner.org Tue Dec 13 17:28:00 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:28:00 -0500 Subject: 8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?) Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3371D@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Feldman [mailto:r_a_feldman at hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 5:30 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?) > > > You can buy these new from JDR Microdevices for $28.88. You > have to use this > one as the primary disk controller, but it supports up to > four 360kB, 720kB, > 1.2MB or 1.44MB floppy drives. > > http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=MCT-FDC-HD4 > Anyone know if these can be made to work as 4 drive controllers in Linux? Kelly From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:27:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:27:51 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20051213075129.053b2628@mail> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051213075129.053b2628@mail> Message-ID: <20051213182751.0d937b2a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:52:28 -0600 John Foust wrote: > At 11:41 PM 12/12/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > >There's a big difference between being a conservator and going > >around spreading warez, though. > > Are you saying there's a fragment of law or court cases that > carve out exceptions to the copyright practices for > "computer conservators"? > > - John > There is an ethical basis for what is called 'living in the civilized world.' Not all of ethics is codified in law. Lawyers can only dream that this is the case. If I'm wrong in this then it's time for someone to draw up a list of all the old software that needs to cease to exist. There is a lot of it, in fact literally tons of media to throw in the bonfire. It would probably be a good thing to encourage the people and entities who insist on this 'burning' to step out and have their say. So the rest of us can learn who they are early enough to deal with them. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:33:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:33:41 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> What *really* bugs me is that Google may well have the only copy of >> such a historical archive of data, so it's not like you can even take >> your business elsewhere to someone who understands the historical >> importance of such an archive. If there was a choice, I'd send a >> polite email to Google saying why I thought they were muppets, and >> just go and use someone who gave you actual access to a Usenet >> archive rather than an abbreviated version of one. > > Google at least put time and effort (and probably money) into > preserving the stuff so that at least you know exactly why you > want to get in touch with So-and-So. Sure, and hats off to them for that (although I seem to recall that Dejanews did all the leg-work). But it didn't seem too much to ask for a web interface onto that archive that actually presented all the information that it captured. Which indeed is what the archive was like until the 'improved' it in the last couple of years :( > As far as I know, they have no monopoly on Usenet news. > Anyone else can go back and gather up data from as many > tape archives as they can persuade people to part with. I did wonder about that. Anyone know if Google/Deja bought/took any such tapes, or did they merely copy them and give the data back to the owners? I don't think I've ever heard one way or the other. Of course we know better than most that you sometimes only get one shot at reading old tapes, so it's a shame the data didn't go into a public domain archive rather than a commercial one, even if the botched interface onto it is free. > They must have been deluged with complaints from people > who were having their email address harvested by bots! That's the problem. It's a Usenet archive, and a fundamental part of Usenet is having an email address in the headers; a basic principle of the format is that you can in theory contact authors via email if desired. Of course you can choose not to do this by leaving a totally false address, or you can munge your address somehow to fool such bots but still allow people to reach you. Google's masking of the address seems to be either one of two things: 1) Dumbing down of the medium in order to provide for idiots with no common sense. 2) Typical corporate mentality; force users to use Google's interface rather than their own email client in order to contact people. It just seems like a shame to me. I used to admire Google for putting together such an archive and making it searchable. No longer, since the new look interface was put in place which masks basic Usenet functionality :( cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 13 17:43:51 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:43:51 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512131843.51414.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 18:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > Google's masking of the address seems to be either one of two things: > > 1) Dumbing down of the medium in order to provide for idiots with no > common sense. > > 2) Typical corporate mentality; force users to use Google's interface > rather than their own email client in order to contact people. I'm pretty sure it's #3: 3) Prevent spammers from acquiring email addresses from the google usenet archive. Would you rather have absolutely none of the old posts that they now have indexed and freely available, or deal with not having email addresses available? Personally, I find the content of usenet posts generally to be more useful than the From: address on them... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:45:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:45:11 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F56DF.5070406@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <439F56DF.5070406@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439F5D07.20808@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Even if they've used a munged email address, as most people posting to >> Usenet do these days? I can't imagine teams of Google staff reading >> every single message posted daily to Usenet and sanitising >> spam-trapped email addresses for the purpose of their archives. > > All I know is that I was able to spend 4 minutes tracking down someone > based on the email they used in a 1997 USENET posting and they replied > (somewhat surprised). It can be done. Yes, many people don't change private email addresses often - can be quite different for corporate ones though, or addresses that people have munged to avoid the spammers (which is most Usenet users these days apart from the ones using Google's interface - which seems to post with users' real addresses) >> And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back who's no >> longer on that address? > > Then Google revealing the address wouldn't help you anyway. Your point > again? My point (again) is that say fred at somecompany.com posted something a few years back and I want to contact Fred. In the past, if mail to fred at somecompany.com bounced, I'd find an alternate contact address (email / phone / whatever) for somecompany.com and contact them to see if Fred was still there, just on a different address because the company's chamged their email format. Google revealing the full address *is* useful in that case; if it's masked sufficiently then attempted contact is impossible. I've used that method to successfully contact people quite often in the past; when you're doing historical work it can come in quite useful. No longer possible since Google changed the interface. >> What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and taken >> functionality away from the user. > > The google USENET archive isn't useful or functional? You seriously > think that? I said "taken functionality away", not "not useful or functional" - although it's not as functional as it used to be (the fact that the new interface isn't as logical or easy to navigate is a separate issue) > As for being "the only game in town", they expanded their USENET archive > at considerable expense above and beyond the old dejanews archives Yes, and for a while it was awesome and every credit was due. Then they took functionality away by changing the interface, which is what I'm annoyed about. cheers Jules From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:44:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:44:21 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <0IRF006XLSJWLEF4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRF006XLSJWLEF4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051213184421.221140f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:41:29 -0500 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 21:42:13 -0800 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >On 12/13/2005 at 12:24 AM 9000 VAX wrote: > > > >>One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of > >them are >with software. Am I authorized to use the software I > >found? One step >further, could I copy them to my own PC and > >use them? Examples are MKS >tool kit, MS C 6.0, several > >versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit >that I am not > >bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the >'main > >stream' opinion. > > > >I suppose that would depend on the EULA, wouldn't it? Some > >permit transfer of license with or without charge, others > >don't. > > > > The MS EULA is simple. If the machine dies and you pitch it you > supposed to buy everything new. You may however repair it, for > whatever that really amounts to. They want you to spend, > spend, spend. > Some people, like myself, have gone out of the way to purchase 'retail box' editions of Microsoft Operating Systems. They cost considerably more than the 'OEM' version or the 'Upgrade' version, but in many instances they WERE (and are) available. The owner of a retail-box edition of Windows 98, for instance, is entitled for perpetuity to run that software on any single machine. Windows 98 'retail box' 'for systems without a Windows operating system' was $189 instead of the $89 for an 'upgrade' copy, and the two packages were sold beside each other on the same retail shelf. And OEM versions, if purchased at a 'screwdriver shop' type operation, and not bundled with a specific machine from Compaq or Dell, are 'bound' to whatever piece of hardware they were purchased with. I don't know that it's been tested in court, but if I buy an OEM edition of Windows 2000 at a computer store bundled with a SIMM or a Hard Drive, which DOES (or did, anyway) satisfy Microsoft's OEM requirement, you could probably just tape that SIMM inside your new machine and continue to use the software. Or use it in some 'vital' capacity, i.e. as a spacer that keeps the hard drive from slipping down loosely in the case. I once purchased a new-old-stock 5-1/4" full-height 9GB SCSI hard drive from an ebay seller. He threw in a new shrink-wrapped copy of Office 97 without even telling me beforehand that it would be included. This was shortly after Office 2000 had come out, and Office 97 was still (and still is) a viable useful piece of software. It was a nice surprise and I had no idea that the software was going to be 'thrown in' on the deal (there was no mention of it on the bid page.) People get software all the time like that with laptops, etc. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 17:48:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:48:51 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F5D07.20808@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <439F56DF.5070406@oldskool.org> <439F5D07.20808@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439F5DE3.3090300@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Google revealing the full address *is* useful in that case; if it's > masked sufficiently then attempted contact is impossible. > > I've used that method to successfully contact people quite often in the > past; when you're doing historical work it can come in quite useful. No > longer possible since Google changed the interface. Still, you can go ahead and try to email them anyway using the Reply link, and when the email inevitably bounces, you can see the address that bounced. >> As for being "the only game in town", they expanded their USENET >> archive at considerable expense above and beyond the old dejanews >> archives > > Yes, and for a while it was awesome and every credit was due. Then they > took functionality away by changing the interface, which is what I'm > annoyed about. I agree with you there. With the AJAX (hate that word) fad currently in vogue, you'd think Google's Usenet interface would be much more developed than it currently is. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:48:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:48:43 -0500 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <439F56E9.2030604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <439F56E9.2030604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051213184843.4d413d46.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:19:05 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Brian Wheeler wrote: > > >In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it > >in 2 hours after the instructor had made several changes to > >either the wire wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL > >changes. The 2nd semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX > >system. > > > > > > > Was that the CMOS pdp chip or a TTL designed PDP? > > >That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building > >machines (heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom > >(or eeprom) burner. > > > >What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for > >PC-driven burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If > >not homebuilt, what's a reasonable price for one? > > > > > > > Use of a EEPROM may be a better idea as I think there are low > cost designs that hang off the printer port to burn a eeprom. I > think commercial burners run at > $399+ but I can't say for sure. > My Needham PB-10 EPROM burner is an ISA card with a ZIF socket on a dongle that hangs out the back. It uses two 6821 PIAs on the ISA card and a number of other commonly chips (iow- it is a durable design and 'repairable forever.' All the programming algorhythms and 'mechanism' of it is in the included PC software. I paid, I think, a little over $100 for it new. And Needham PB-10 burners are not uncommon on the used market. And I've run it in a Linux box using a DOS emulator successfully in the past. (by 'punching holes' in the emulator config to allow dosemu to directly access specific I/O ports) > >Thanks! > >Brian > > > >. > > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 17:50:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:50:00 -0600 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <20051213151808.G26607@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439F4AAC.9020904@oldskool.org> <20051213151808.G26607@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <439F5E28.9070108@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>WYSIWYG), but I've never considered an interface to be enforcable by copyright >>(if they were, we'd have stupid lawsuits over which shortcut keys are used for >>certain functions across programs, etc.). > > Such as the lawsuit by Lotus that crushed Adam Osborne's > "Paperback Software" > ... and caused Borland to have "write to" instead of "save as" in TurboC Oh my $DEITY. Wow, that's retarded. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 17:51:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:51:38 -0600 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <20051213182751.0d937b2a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <439E1F66.5000703@jetnet.ab.ca> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051213075129.053b2628@mail> <20051213182751.0d937b2a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <439F5E8A.2050300@oldskool.org> >>Are you saying there's a fragment of law or court cases that >>carve out exceptions to the copyright practices for >>"computer conservators"? The Internet Archive received such a fragment, IIRC. I don't have time to look at archive.org to verify but I distinctly remember 2 years ago the big announcement that made it okay for archive.org to archive historically relevant software. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 17:52:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:52:39 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051213185239.32eaa169.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:07:24 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Google's usenet archive isn't what it once was though, now > >that they > obscure email addresses and only let you contact > >authors through their > site; if the author's using a > >spam-trapped address or has changed > address format (but is > >still at the same location) then it's next to > useless. > > > > You can't view them directly, but if you click on Reply To > > Author it does get the email to them. > > Even if they've used a munged email address, as most people > posting to Usenet do these days? I can't imagine teams of > Google staff reading every single message posted daily to > Usenet and sanitising spam-trapped email addresses for the > purpose of their archives. > > And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back > who's no longer on that address? In the past, if the company > was obvious in the email address, I'd look up the company name > and politely contact them to see if the person I wanted to > reach was still there but just on a different address. That's no > > longer possible now either... > > What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and > taken functionality away from the user. It's either Google > Groups and not linked to Usenet, or it's a Usenet interface and > should have the same functionality. > > What *really* bugs me is that Google may well have the only copy > of such a historical archive of data, so it's not like you can > even take your business elsewhere to someone who understands > the historical importance of such an archive. If there was a > choice, I'd send a polite email to Google saying why I thought > they were muppets, and just go and use someone who gave you > actual access to a Usenet archive rather than an abbreviated > version of one. > The current vogue is to love and admire Google. Even though they're gradually becoming the latest band of Madison Aveneuesque businesspeople. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 13 17:53:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:53:59 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> References: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <439F5F17.3030602@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > I did wonder about that. Anyone know if Google/Deja bought/took any such > tapes, or did they merely copy them and give the data back to the > owners? I don't think I've ever heard one way or the other. Yes: http://groups.google.com/group/google.public.support.general/msg/d88f36fb3e2c0aac -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 13 17:57:02 2005 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:57:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: MCM68766 EPROM chips In-Reply-To: <200512132337.jBDNbbQ5032366@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051213235702.38651.qmail@web81106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message: 11 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:45:42 -0600 From: "Wolfe, Julian " Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I would be interested in 8 to 16 of them for upgrading a Tektronix 4052 computer. Bob Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:06:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:06:09 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131843.51414.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> <200512131843.51414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <439F61F1.2030109@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 13 December 2005 18:33, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Google's masking of the address seems to be either one of two things: >> >> 1) Dumbing down of the medium in order to provide for idiots with no >> common sense. >> >> 2) Typical corporate mentality; force users to use Google's interface >> rather than their own email client in order to contact people. > > I'm pretty sure it's #3: > > 3) Prevent spammers from acquiring email addresses from the google > usenet archive. Except that a lot of people from posts > 3 years aren't around on the same address any more, and people who have been posting for < 3 years have been generally well aware of the spam issues and so using munged addresses to post to (or creating an address specifically for Usenet posts). Meanwhile, Google's posting interface itself appears to prevent users from munging their addresses and actually posts to Usenet with a live non-munged address. > Would you rather have absolutely none of the old posts that they now > have indexed and freely available, or deal with not having email > addresses available? I'd rather have it back how it was to be honest. I've never had a problem with spam, even when I had perfectly valid addresses amongst lots of archived postings in Google's archive whilst their old interface was in place. If they're that worried about spam, then at the very least force users to sign into the system and put one of those "read the letters out of this graphic" security systems in place before the user can see an actual email address in a post in order to prevent harvesting. Not rocket science, but at least they data is all available. > Personally, I find the content of usenet posts generally to be more > useful than the From: address on them... ... except when it doesn't go into enough detail, or some offhand comment in a post is relevant and chasing it up would be useful. If the author left a human-parsable email address in the header the assumption is that they weren't averse to someone contacting them, after all. For an analogy, think of it like preserving old software but not noting down what format / system the software's for. It's still great when the system works, but there are going to be cases when it doesn't. Not archiving or making available all the data will always cause problems at some point further down the line. cheers Jules From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Dec 13 18:12:20 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:12:20 -0800 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: References: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 4:36 PM -0500 12/13/05, Bryan Pope wrote: > >Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does > >anyone know who developed it? > > Wasn't that "Digital Research", the same people that did CP/M? > Yep. It's now available under open source licensing and still works under most DOS versions. While GEM is a GUI, it's not multitasking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeGEM From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 13 18:03:52 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:03:52 GMT Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: PC-DOS 3.3" (Dec 13, 23:07) References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 13 2005, 23:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > You can't view them directly, but if you click on Reply To Author it > > does get the email to them. > > And what if you locate someone in a post from ten years back who's no longer > on that address? In the past, if the company was obvious in the email address, > I'd look up the company name and politely contact them to see if the person I > wanted to reach was still there but just on a different address. That's no > longer possible now either... > > What bugs me is that Google have taken a useful archive and taken > functionality away from the user. It's either Google Groups and not linked to > Usenet, or it's a Usenet interface and should have the same functionality. I agree with the sentiment, and if there was a choice I'd use something else too. I hate the "new improved" format for more reasons than have been mentioned. But presumably you've not noticed the "Unlock email address" link in each message? Look closely -- there's an ellipsis (actually, three dots, not a proper ellipsis) in each "From:" adddress, just before the "at". Click on that. If you get some completely indecipherable image, just click "Cancel" and get another, hopefully better, image. Once you enter the correct data, click OK and you get the post with real addresses. Yes, it's a pain, but it (mostly) works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 13 18:23:31 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:23:31 GMT Subject: Cromemco MCB-216 3K BASIC amd Monitor ROMs Message-ID: <10512140023.ZM5694@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> For those who've not seen it on the comp.os.cpm newsgroup, here's part of a message posted by Craig Landrum: > After quite a saga, I've been successful in resurrecting my > copy of Cromemco's MCB-216 3K Control Basic and Monitor for > the Cromemco Single Card Computer. In the next couple of days > I will be moving the .HEX file from my CP/M machine to my Mac > G5 and can then provide it to anyone that needs it. I don't > have a website so perhaps Mr. Harte or another volunteer could > post the .HEX files to their sites if I email it to them. Let > me know if you want the files. I also have the 3K control > Basic doc and the Z-80 monitor doc, but that's available > elsewhere online. FYI, there are two .HEX files - one for > each of the 2716 EPROMs in the MCB-216 set, and they are short > - about 4K apiece (duh). Craig has promised me a copy of the EPROM image files, possibly at the weekend, and I'll put them on my website somewhere, possibly along with the docs. He gave his consent to tell the list, and also said that listmembers can email him directly: "craigl" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 18:30:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:30:29 -0800 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F55F7.4080301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> <439F513F.6080501@oldskool.org> <439F55F7.4080301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512131630290881.1F23B616@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 11:15 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Except we're talking about software here which doesn't deteriorate or get >damaged by someone else using it. If the same were true of cars, I'd have >*no* problem in someone else making use of my vehicle if it wasn't >inconveniencing me in any way. It wouldn't make any difference to me whether they used it >or not. And what if it's software (or a book or a song) that you wrote yourself? After all, a book doesn't deteriorate by someone else using it or by being copied and, thanks to modern technology, I can digitize said book and distribute it over the web, thereby saving some poor trees and cutting down on greenhouse gases. Wonder what would happen if I posted the latest Harry Potter book on the web as a public service? I'm sure Ms. Rowling wouldn't mind, so I don't need to ask her, right? When you copy and use software without the author's permission, you are denying him/her/them/it any opportunity for compensation for his/her/their hard work and expense in creating the software. You are stealing. If an author makes the decision to forgo compensation and offers his work for free, that's fine--but it's the author's call, not yours. There was a time in my life when I didn't own a car, but part of my apartment lease included a labeled reserved secure parking space. A neighbor, knowing that I didn't have a vehicle decided that it would be okay to park his girlfriend's car in my space. He didn't ask, probably using the same logic as "it's not inconveniencing you in any way". I confronted the neighbor, and he gave pretty much that same reasoning. I noted that I was paying for the space as a line item in my lease and that I'd be happy to sublet the space to him--and that, had he asked me first, I might have even agreed to some limited use of the space gratis (After all, I did have guests and wanted them to be able to use the space if they needed to). He became angry, called me a name and walked off. Of course, the next time his girlfriend parked in my space, I had her car towed, as was my right. Always ask permission. You just might get it. That's all I'm going to say on this topic. I'm not going to convert the sinners by sermonizing. Maybe it's a sign of the times. My apologies for bringing the subject up. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 18:32:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:32:46 -0500 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439F2077.6050200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <8dd2d95c0512130524h5eccf986sd2114b0cb036bc31@mail.gmail.com> <439F2077.6050200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051213193246.436ee833.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:26:47 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Madcrow Maxwell wrote: > > Well, IMHO, Win95 was rather close to a real multitasking > > system, at least for Win32 programs. Maybe not as good as > > Linux or even NT, but it got the job done and got it done > > significantly better than 3.x > > My main problem with it was that it tended to disintegrate over > time and eventually would need a reinstall as functionality > would start to break and free disk space would mysteriously > vanish... There are decent mechanisms to produce frozen 'mirror image' copies of your well-configured and working software environment, though. It can be as simple as installing a little 'stub' version of Linux on the machine and using the dd command to mirror your C: drive to an image on D:, or by using Ghost. So you set Win95 up just the way you like it, carefully keep program and data space separated (not that difficult) and 'blow' the saved image back onto your C: drive from time to time. It's easy to create bootable CDROM images for that purpose. There's really no reason to ever install Windows 95 from the bare Microsoft media more than once on any particular architecture. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 13 18:41:31 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:41:31 -0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131630290881.1F23B616@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <006001c60047$2202e190$5b01a8c0@pc1> Chuck Guzis wrote: > When you copy and use software without the author's permission, you > are denying him/her/them/it any opportunity for compensation for > his/her/their hard work and expense in creating the software. You > are stealing. You are denying them _some_ opportunity. It just so happens that society has decided that it is stealing at this point in time. The point was to encourage people to produce "soft" works (like books, music etc.) for the benefit of all by giving the producer exclusive rights for some limited time. Now that the "limited time" seems to be "lifetime of author plus infinity" it seems to me that the original intention has been subverted. It is not, however, stealing in my jurisdiction, and I'm guessing not in yours either. It is copyright violation. The whole discussion about DOS is a bit pointless though isn't it? Doesn't FreeDOS work? I know that at least one of the CDs that came with one of my recent motherboards boots into FreeDOS (the other one, from a different manufacturer, boots into Linux). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:48:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:48:15 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <200512131630290881.1F23B616@10.0.0.252> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F4759.5020705@oldskool.org> <200512131436070324.1EBAFF7E@10.0.0.252> <439F513F.6080501@oldskool.org> <439F55F7.4080301@yahoo.co.uk> <200512131630290881.1F23B616@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <439F6BCF.9020802@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/13/2005 at 11:15 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Except we're talking about software here which doesn't deteriorate or get >> damaged by someone else using it. If the same were true of cars, I'd have >> *no* problem in someone else making use of my vehicle if it wasn't >> inconveniencing me in any way. It wouldn't make any difference to me > whether they used it >> or not. > > And what if it's software (or a book or a song) that you wrote yourself? > After all, a book doesn't deteriorate by someone else using it or by being > copied and, thanks to modern technology, I can digitize said book and > distribute it over the web, thereby saving some poor trees and cutting down > on greenhouse gases. Wonder what would happen if I posted the latest Harry > Potter book on the web as a public service? I'm sure Ms. Rowling wouldn't > mind, so I don't need to ask her, right? Ahhh, I was merely pointing out that the car analogy didn't stack up, nothing more :) I agree with you totally, and personally I'd ask permission first in the software case. Problem is in a lot of cases software comes from big companies, and big company mentality gets in the way. Assuming the company even bothers to reply - which doesn't always happen - the answer's invariably no. I think this often stems out of a belief that if the software no longer benefits the company then it shouldn't be put in a position where it could possibly benefit anyone else. That and someone invariably gets in a tizz about support issues (although pointing out up front that you expect no support whatsoever seems to help, although they generally still don't entirely believe you) IME, smaller companies and individuals* tend to be much more flexible, thankfully. *that's regular-sized individuals, not smaller ones ;) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 13 17:55:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:55:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 12, 5 04:50:17 pm Message-ID: > But then we have TEX created under a unix system for real work. TeX (please note the capitalisation) was available for MS-DOS in at least 2 versions. I am not sure _when_ it appeared, though, but I certainly used it. And once you've learnt TeX, you never go back to inferior systems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:15:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:15:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <439F1162.5010202@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Dec 13, 5 01:22:26 pm Message-ID: > > Or those Eurocard connectors that are 30 some-odd pins wide and 3 to 5 > pins deep? I doubt they're 0.1" spacing, but they dense and rugged. The 'Eurocard connector' is probably a DIN41612 connector. The full-size one is 32 pins long by 1, 2 or 3 rows, and there's a half-size one too (16 pins long). All are 0.1" spacing in both directions. They come in solder and wire-wrap versions, and even IIRC, IDC versions to crimp onto ribbon cable. IMHO these are a lot easier to use for prototyping than card edge connectotrs. You don't need to etch and gold-plate a set of fingers on the PSB -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:25:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <439F37AA.40703@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 13, 5 09:05:46 pm Message-ID: > The interface was supplied with an IEEE filing system (IEEEFS), in ROM. > Subsequently, the new firmware (NIEEE), provided in a sideways ROM, was > written to enable the interface to be used with the National Semiconductors > 32000 series processor based Cambridge Coprocessor and Workstation but could Now why do I suddently want this, and where the heck do I find it? I do know the ROM I got with my IEEE-488 interface is IEEEFS, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:29:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:29:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> from "Brian Wheeler" at Dec 13, 5 04:17:29 pm Message-ID: > That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines > (heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) > burner. Much more use than an EPROM programmer is an EPROM emulator. This is a box of RAM that you can load from a PC and which apperas as an EPROM to the target system (there's a lead ending in a DIL header that plugs into the EPROM socket on the target). If your code is as bad as mine, you'll go (in)sane programming, erasing, and reprogramming EPROMs for every bug fix. I built my own EPROM programmer/emulator almost 20 years ago. 3 boards of TTL, a UART chip, RAM, etc. I couldn't use a microcontroller, because I had nothing to blow the firmware ROM with. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 18:53:48 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:53:48 -0800 Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90512131653w3f142424m786c9e8b32028772@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi, > I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. > Anybody know a download site ? > Two manuals that would be good to find are: 21MX E-Series Computer HP 2109B and HP 2113B Operating and Reference Manual part number 02109-90014 -or- 21MX E-Series Computer Technical Reference Handbook part number 5950-3765 (you missed out on this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8719876844 ) Neither of these appear to be currently available on bitsavers You can find the 2113/2117 front panel schematics here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ 92851-90001_Mar81_8.pdf From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 18:52:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:52:53 -0500 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051213195253.241230f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:18:37 -0800 Eric J Korpela wrote: > Speaking of Geoworks, anyone have a copy of the rare 8088 devkit > for GEOS? IMHO, it's lack of wide distribution of a devkit that > killed GEOS the deadest. That and flying toasters.... I > probably would have used it for my main desktop if I could have > coded for it.... > > I'm also looking for a copy of the devkit for Windows 1.0X. > Being able to code for Windows 1 would kick a**. > ICK! Have you ever run Windows 1 for any productive purpose? Being able to code for DOS 1.0 is more useful (I have the 1.0 BASIC and PASCAL compilers, and the early Aztec C compilers.) Really, you can't run most Windows 1.x or 2.x apps on anything but Windows 1.x or 2.x. You might as well be developing TopView-friendly applications. > Eric > > On 12/12/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > > Allison wrote: > > > > > If you used Geoworks, or > > Ghostscript (I used a retail package called "GOSCRIPT"), or > > Win 3.1, you could > > use any font you want and the print subsystem would just > > rasterize it as graphics. > > -- > > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > > http://www.oldskool.org/ > > Want to help an ambitious games project? > > http://www.mobygames.com/ > > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 13 18:58:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:58:01 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > But presumably you've not noticed the "Unlock email > address" link in each message? Look closely -- there's an ellipsis > (actually, three dots, not a proper ellipsis) in each "From:" > adddress, just before the "at". wow, no I hadn't. They make that rather obscure! *looks around for humble pie* well, I stand corrected. I might have to start liking Google again :) (I'd just gone and checked the darn interface too to make sure they hasn't sneaked this in since the last time I'd looked :-) > Yes, it's a pain, but it (mostly) works. Does that job though and gets around the problem I was annoyed about :) cheers Jules From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 18:59:02 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:59:02 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90512131659t12f1a3ffvc19b7b824fad3c25@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? > These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm > looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. > > Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum > order. They are $8 each at http://www.unicornelectronics.com with a $20 minimum order. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 18:57:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:57:53 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051213195753.1dd590cd.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:45:42 -0600 "Wolfe, Julian " wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM > chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC > equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these > chips. > > Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a > $150-200 minimum order. > It's also a footprint equivalent of the ROM chips in the IBM-PC motherboards, for anybody who wants to tweak or adjust the BIOS (or BASIC interpreter) in theirs. > If you're interested, let me know. > > Julian > > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Dec 13 19:00:27 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:00:27 -0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F6BCF.9020802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <006201c60049$c8b1b5a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Jules Richardson wrote: > Problem is in a lot of cases software comes from big companies, and > big > company mentality gets in the way. Assuming the company even bothers > to reply - which doesn't always happen - the answer's invariably no. > I think this often stems out of a belief that if the software no > longer benefits the company then Actually, having sometimes seen this from the other side, I think the answer is often "No. Now what's the question" because of a simple-minded analysis. The cost of saying "No" is minimal, with virtually no downside. The cost of saying "Yes" is (often) likely to be minimal but could turn out to be the first step into an unexepcted minefield with no way out. Given that "Yes" might cost you your job, which would you pick? So unless there is someone inside the company who understands what is going on and is willing to invest some time and energy in making it happen, the easy answer is "No". Now with Open Source becoming more and more popular, perhaps you'll start to see a new breed of responder who can see a potential upside and is willing to do whatever is necessary in order to say "Yes". DEC, for example, often made obsolete products available via DECUS, and now via the Hobbyist program. At least some old manuals make it clear that if certain docs are no longer sold, they can be reproduced freely. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 19:03:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:03:00 -0800 Subject: 8-bit 1.44 Drive Controller (Was: Fancy Font?) In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3371D@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3371D@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200512131703000044.1F4177D6@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 6:28 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Anyone know if these can be made to work as 4 drive controllers in Linux? I own one of these. I'm sure that they can be made to work as 4 drive controllers in Linux, but I strongly suspect that the Linux floppy driver may need to be "tweaked" to understand that it's possible for a controller to support 4 drives. But from an interface standpoint, the thing is pretty vanilla flavored--I don't use the PROM in mine and it functions just fine. Cheers, Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 19:26:35 2005 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:26:35 -0800 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F5E8A.2050300@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439E2BB9.9030506@oldskool.org> <439E310E.8060407@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512121941360880.1AAC52DE@10.0.0.252> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051213004145.5f2f1341.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20051213075129.053b2628@mail> <20051213182751.0d937b2a.chenmel@earthlink.net> <439F5E8A.2050300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090512131726v61fd672p3c5f006d3a660baa@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > >>Are you saying there's a fragment of law or court cases that > >>carve out exceptions to the copyright practices for > >>"computer conservators"? > > The Internet Archive received such a fragment, IIRC. I don't have time to > look > at archive.org to verify but I distinctly remember 2 years ago the big > announcement that made it okay for archive.org to archive historically > relevant > software. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > Internet Archive Gets DMCA Exemption To Help Archive Vintage Software In 2003 the Internet Archive, as part of research into vintage software archiving, discovered possible archiving issues involving the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. This could make it impossible to legally archive early computer software and games, even for accredited institutions wishing to store limited amounts of non-distributable, archival images. It's vital to make proper archival copies of these artefacts, because the life of magnetic media such as floppy discs has been estimated at 10 to 30 years. Time is running out to properly archive much of this large body of work for safekeeping, to ensure it lives out its term of copyright and is available ( in the short-term, under suitable copyright-constrained means) for posterity. The Copyright Office holds a rulemaking proceedingevery 3 years to: *"determine whether there are particular classes of works as to which users are, or are likely to be, adversely affected in their ability to make noninfringing uses due to the prohibition on circumvention of access controls."* As part of this rulemaking process, the Internet Archive submitted an initial comment in early 2003, and followed this up with a reply commentgiving further examples of classic software that might be lost if access controls could not be circumvented. Following deliberation, the Copyright Office ruled in late October 2003 that four exemptions should be addedto the anti-circumvention clause of the DMCA, to be valid until the next Copyright Office rulemaking in 2006, including two that are related to the Internet Archive's original comments: * Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access.* With the aid of these exemptions, the Internet Archive is continuing its work with institutional and technical partners to research and archive this at-risk software , and would like to thank all those who worked hard to help us achieve our goal From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 13 19:31:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:31:25 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439F61F1.2030109@yahoo.co.uk> References: <005901c6003a$d522ab00$5b01a8c0@pc1> <439F5A55.4080504@yahoo.co.uk> <200512131843.51414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <439F61F1.2030109@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051213203125.1d385372.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:06:09 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Tuesday 13 December 2005 18:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Google's masking of the address seems to be either one of two > >things: > > >> 1) Dumbing down of the medium in order to provide for idiots > >with no > common sense. > >> > >> 2) Typical corporate mentality; force users to use Google's > >interface > rather than their own email client in order to > >contact people. > > > > I'm pretty sure it's #3: > > > > 3) Prevent spammers from acquiring email addresses from the > > google usenet archive. > > Except that a lot of people from posts > 3 years aren't around > on the same address any more, and people who have been posting > for < 3 years have been generally well aware of the spam issues > and so using munged addresses to post to (or creating an > address specifically for Usenet posts). > > Meanwhile, Google's posting interface itself appears to prevent > users from munging their addresses and actually posts to Usenet > with a live non-munged address. > And in the process, turns Usenet into another proprietary AOL-type newsgroup service. Unless the feeds from 'Google News' are freely distributed to other news hosts, which of course defeats their whole mechanism for 'hidden email addresses.' So a tidy rationale for Google to privatize the news feed emerges. It's essentially the same thing as trusting MSN or AOL to permanently archive public discussions. Or Yahoo groups. It's a private reserve, like the 'commons' area of a shopping mall, and administraton of it is at the discretion of whomever happens to be the owner. Right now the 'commons' is owned by Google, who some view as an enlightened despot. Who will 'own' it in ten years has not been determined. It's a terrible degradation of the old way. Which can be blamed on 'spammers' or, perhaps, on the pathological fear and loathing of 'spam' and the way we allow said loathing to change how we behave. > > Would you rather have absolutely none of the old posts that > > they now have indexed and freely available, or deal with not > > having email addresses available? > > I'd rather have it back how it was to be honest. I've never had > a problem with spam, even when I had perfectly valid addresses > amongst lots of archived postings in Google's archive whilst > their old interface was in place. > > If they're that worried about spam, then at the very least force > users to sign into the system and put one of those "read the > letters out of this graphic" security systems in place before > the user can see an actual email address in a post in order to > prevent harvesting. Not rocket science, but at least they data > is all available. > > > Personally, I find the content of usenet posts generally to be > > more useful than the From: address on them... > > ... except when it doesn't go into enough detail, or some > offhand comment in a post is relevant and chasing it up would > be useful. If the author left a human-parsable email address in > the header the assumption is that they weren't averse to > someone contacting them, after all. > > For an analogy, think of it like preserving old software but not > noting down what format / system the software's for. It's still > great when the system works, but there are going to be cases > when it doesn't. Not archiving or making available all the data > will always cause problems at some point further down the line. > > cheers > > Jules > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Dec 13 19:52:51 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:52:51 -0600 Subject: DOS 3.3 and copyright Message-ID: <4f5fd18eef9a45e8952bbef61335da2a@valleyimplants.com> To bring it down to a pragmatic level - 2 possibilities (1) for purposes of the OEM license Microsoft considers a "PC" to be almost any piece of hardware internal to a CPU. This would seem to have possibilities- maintain one piece common to a "known licensed" machine and then it should work, provided the other PC is not currently using the license. (2) for a while anyway, if I recall correctly, MSFT policy was that a current product license would allow you to install previous versions in lieu of it on a licensed machine. If this is still true, you could aquire something along the lines of Windows 95 and install DOS 3.3 (as a prior product) instead of the Windows 95. You could not, of course, then install the 95 on another machine. MSFT was strangely quiet about *how* you would get the prior versions if you didn't have media, but as far as I can see the license is the important part. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 13 20:51:53 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <20051213195253.241230f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Dec 13, 5 07:52:53 pm" Message-ID: <200512140251.SAA15762@floodgap.com> > You might as well be developing TopView-friendly applications. Yes, but those would be *useful*. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 16:47:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:47:20 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <40AD9812-6C1E-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <20051214025413.OFXI9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... Are they that hard to find? -- I've got a little stash of them, because I find them all over the place (found quite a few at the local recyclers just by going through their bin of scrap boards) I think they were quite popular at one time. They were not uncommon on XT floppy controllers. I haven't build it, but I'm pretty sure I have a data-separator design from a NEC application note or some such kicking around - I can see if I can dig it up. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 16:47:20 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:47:20 +0000 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <20051214025423.OFZE9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it in 2 > hours after the instructor had made several changes to either the wire > wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL changes. The 2nd > semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX system. > > That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines > (heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) > burner. > > What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven > burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's > a reasonable price for one? Although I have a 29B, I still do most of my "simple" EPROMS (2716-27256) with a little homebrew burner that I also built back in the 80s. It too is based on the 6809 (it's can run standlalone with a keypad or controlled via a host). I have published the design which is available somewhere on my commercial website if you are interested... However, I don't know that I would bother, as EPROMS are a pain in the butt to program due to odd voltages which you must supply/switch - a modern flash chip will do just as nicely and you can program it with TTL level signals. I did a very simple flash device programmer via a PC parallel port (uses little adapters for various flash devices). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 13 16:49:21 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:49:21 +0000 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRG00IFWJGSK141@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051214025543.OGNB9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > >I think a Floppy chip with a real built in data separator is the way to go. > > Find a37c65 or 9266. no big deal using raw ttl as then you can do ANY > data rate. Also a good idea. > >Also a good dma is needed, as having the cpu do floppy I/O leaves > >no margin for serial I/O. > > Not required. Small system, nice addition but pumps up complexity > more than a bit. Agreed, although there is nothing in the design of CUBIX to prevent a DMA disk interface. > >The other thing is a NICE terminal to go with the system. I don't want > >to boot windows or dos to run a terminal. For development work a PC is > >a good idea until you get a OS running. I have a used Altos IV here, > > from what the keyboard says but I don't know of how many years of > >life the terminal may have left. > > Fix it, build one or find a VT220,320,320 whatever. Or do like I did in the original portable unit - put on a 6845 and do your own video display. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 13 22:03:31 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:03:31 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu SMD drive References: <20051213225908.40312.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00fe01c60063$593efba0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Pull some model numbers off your drive so we know we're talking about the same drives that you may have. Most of the units I've seen have had the rubber bushings deep inside outer metal housings that made installation kind of trivial -- maybe you have just part of a complete unit? John A. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Dec 13 22:09:00 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:09:00 -0600 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs Message-ID: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> I remember when I first used this piece of low-budget software 12 years ago that it had some interesting bugs, most of which surfaced when you used 'clever' features of C++, such as pure virtuals, destructors, etc. I've been using it to do a small TCP/IP implementation for a PCjr and have been sticking to vanilla C. After a few weeks of coding I've hit a bug that has just bewildered me. Take the following code: #include #include "IP.h" IpAddr_t MyIpAddr; char *Ip::formatAddress( const IpAddr_t a, char *buffer ) { char bogus[] = ""; sprintf( buffer, "%d.%d.%d.%d", a[0], a[1], a[2], a[3] ); return buffer; } If I *dont* have the 'char bogus[]' line in there, the call to sprintf always returns zero. If I have that extra line in there, the call to sprintf works as expected. Another work-around is to not use the 'char bogus[]' trick, and just repeat the call to sprintf. The second one will work. Yet another trick is to move the function to the end of the file ... After a few hours of wrestling with this I am fairly sure it is a bug in the linker, and it has to do with the string constant on the sprintf. If it is the first string constant in the file, it doesn't work. If I do anything that adds another string constant before that one, it works, even if the other string constant is never referenced or used. Has anybody run into something similar to this? I'm using tdump (supplied with the compiler), the linker's map file, and debug to try to figure out the code gen and the suspected fixup error, but I can't see anything obviously wrong. Hints on tracking this would be appreciated. Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 13 22:23:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:23:38 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRH00C8Q05WFOL4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: "Dave Dunfield" > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:47:20 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> A workaround for the floppy dataseparator would be very nice... > >Are they that hard to find? -- I've got a little stash of them, because I find them >all over the place (found quite a few at the local recyclers just by going through >their bin of scrap boards) I think they were quite popular at one time. They were >not uncommon on XT floppy controllers. > >I haven't build it, but I'm pretty sure I have a data-separator design from a NEC >application note or some such kicking around - I can see if I can dig it up. > >Regards, >Dave Yes, the 9216 and friends are scarce. If I end up scanning the apnote I'll send it to you as I dont hold a web site. There are two ways in TTL both work and are fairly simple. I have the apnotes. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 13 22:29:00 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:29:00 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <20051214025543.OGNB9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051214025543.OGNB9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <439F9F8C.3020406@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>I think a Floppy chip with a real built in data separator is the way to go. >>> >>> >>Find a37c65 or 9266. no big deal using raw ttl as then you can do ANY >>data rate. >> >> > >Also a good idea. > > > >>>Also a good dma is needed, as having the cpu do floppy I/O leaves >>>no margin for serial I/O. >>> >>> >>Not required. Small system, nice addition but pumps up complexity >>more than a bit. >> >> > >Agreed, although there is nothing in the design of CUBIX to prevent a DMA >disk interface. > > > > > >>>The other thing is a NICE terminal to go with the system. I don't want >>>to boot windows or dos to run a terminal. For development work a PC is >>>a good idea until you get a OS running. I have a used Altos IV here, >>>from what the keyboard says but I don't know of how many years of >>>life the terminal may have left. >>> >>> >>Fix it, build one or find a VT220,320,320 whatever. >> >> > >Or do like I did in the original portable unit - put on a 6845 and do your >own video display. > > > No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a real keyboard... Just PC stuff! I still not figured out the terminal design yet, but it would have 3 over laping displays ... lowest level -- some sort of graphic display -- say 8 grey or 8 colors -- 3 dots per byte. Second level -- User Ascii with fixed colors and transparentcy. Third level -- System Ascii and borders and cursor pointers. >Regards, >Dave > > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > >. > > > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 13 22:29:22 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:29:22 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512131638.jBDGcX8f021357@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003a01c60066$f53e68d0$6401a8c0@barry> RE: "I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version)." Well, the Heathkit / Zenith Z-100 ran MS-DOS (called Z-DOS -- it was not PC compatible at the hardware level) and also supported 8" floppy drives (in fact a very nice accessory external dual-drive 8" floppy was offered). Also, again not PC compatible, but the CompuPro (Godbout) systems had 8" drives and in some configurations ran MS-DOS. Also, the Seattle Computer Products systems. And there were 8" controllers for early PCs. From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 13 23:02:42 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:02:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Dec 13, 2005 10:09:00 PM Message-ID: <20051214050242.AA09973029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > I remember when I first used this piece of low-budget software 12 years > ago that it had some interesting bugs, most of which surfaced when you > used 'clever' features of C++, such as pure virtuals, destructors, etc. > > I've been using it to do a small TCP/IP implementation for a PCjr and > have been sticking to vanilla C. After a few weeks of coding I've hit a > bug that has just bewildered me. > > Take the following code: Which isn't vanilla C (but may be vanilla C++) ... [ snip ] > After a few hours of wrestling with this I am fairly sure it is a bug in > the linker, and it has to do with the string constant on the sprintf. > If it is the first string constant in the file, it doesn't work. If I > do anything that adds another string constant before that one, it works, > even if the other string constant is never referenced or used. Sounds like a fixup problem. If it's the first constant string, then it sounds like it's at offset 0 of some segment, and the linker may be thinking it's a NULL value (easy to see how this could happen actually). And it may be that that implementation of sprintf() checks for a NULL string, and if so, "does the right thing" (not print anything, and return 0 characters written). > Has anybody run into something similar to this? I'm using tdump > (supplied with the compiler), the linker's map file, and debug to try to > figure out the code gen and the suspected fixup error, but I can't see > anything obviously wrong. Hints on tracking this would be appreciated. Can you produce Microsoft .obj files and link with LINK.EXE? -spc (Either that, or just forget C++ and use C ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 13 23:29:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:29:04 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <003a01c60066$f53e68d0$6401a8c0@barry> References: <003a01c60066$f53e68d0$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200512132129040124.20350B84@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 11:29 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >Well, the Heathkit / Zenith Z-100 ran MS-DOS (called Z-DOS -- it was not PC >compatible at the hardware level) and also supported 8" floppy drives (in >fact a very nice accessory external dual-drive 8" floppy was offered). >Also, again not PC compatible, but the CompuPro (Godbout) systems had 8" >drives and in some configurations ran MS-DOS. Also, the Seattle Computer >Products systems. And there were 8" controllers for early PCs. I seem to remember that the first version of DOS 1.x for the Compupro (did it run on the 85-88 board?:) used a legit retail version of PC-DOS, with the IBMBIO files replaced by Godbout-specific I/O drivers. Does anyone remember this? I think it was because MS didn't want to talk small-volume sales for a specific architecture. I checked my files and the NEC PC-8801-16 used MS-DOS 1.25 in 8" media. Packed with it is an 8" DOS copy of Wordstar/Mailmerge. And, for whatever reason, a 5.25" copy of DOS 1.25. Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 13 23:51:12 2005 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:51:12 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 41 In-Reply-To: <200512132218.jBDMIlvJ029402@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512132218.jBDMIlvJ029402@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <439FB2D0.3030409@sbcglobal.net> I have chapter two of the 21MX E-Series Computer Technical Reference Handbook scanned on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/hp/21mx_trh_ch2.pdf Might help. Bob >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:10:13 +0100 >From: "Gooijen, Henk" >Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F >To: >Message-ID: > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE224E at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi, >I am looking for the user manual (console operations) of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. >Anybody know a download site ? > >Reason: I won those two blinkenlight panels on eBay a few weeks ago, and want to add >the blinkenlight RealConsole with SIMH to demonstrate the ease with which you can make >your own "old big iron" system *if* you do not have the space or AC power to run such a >beast. I will always admit that nothing beats the real thing though! > >I checked bitsavers, but as far as I can see the specific versions I am looking for are not >there, and it is not clever to download some 10 Mb just to find out it's the wrong manual ... > >I know, I have way too much projects going, but hey, it beats hanging in the pub :-) > >- Henk, PA8PDP > >BTW. if I have the HP 211x panel wired, I will probably have questions about HP software >like which OS, etc. I am reaaly totally blank on HP. I was only an end-user on HP64000 >systems as a software engineer using editor, assembler, compiler, emulator and state >analyser IIRC, with 8085 (yuck), 6801 (ahh) and 68000 (yes!) pods). I still love the way >the HP64000 screen used the soft key concept. > > > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 00:20:34 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 01:20:34 -0500 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> Message-ID: I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); but the following code worked as expected, printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. vax, 9000 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 14 00:43:01 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:43:01 -0700 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> 9000 VAX wrote: >I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. >The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with >printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); > >but the following code worked as expected, >printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); >printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); >printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); > >The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't >have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. > > > Would 'volatile' help in this case? >vax, 9000 > >. > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 14 01:11:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:11:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512140717.CAA15370@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. >> The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with >> printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); >> but the following code worked as expected, >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); >> printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); This is a bug in the former code. C has never guaranteed anything about the order of evaluation of the arguments to a multi-argument call like printf; indeed, it is possible (though unlikely in this case) that their evaluation can be overlapped. Code that, like the single-call code, depends on that order of evaluation is *broken*, pure and simple. (Unless it is intended specifically for use with a specific compiler, in which case some degree of knowing how that compiler will compile it is not unwarranted, though (to steal a phrase) I would call it unwarranted chumminess with the compiler.) > Would 'volatile' help in this case? Unlikely. Even if it did, it would be a very wrong answer; depending on this kind of compiler-specific detail is the sort of thing you should never do until you *thoroughly* know the rules. That the original poster needed to ask the question at all indicates that sie does not yet know the rules thoroughly enough to know when it's OK to break them. (The rule in this case is "thou shalt not depend on implementation-defined or undefined behaviour".) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Dec 14 02:04:05 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:04:05 +0100 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2599@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: dinsdag 13 december 2005 23:35 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >but it would make the entry of an address (16-bit) cumbersome. > >You must enter it as an 8-bit high and an 8-bit low address. > >I'd definately would go for 16 switches in this case, and also > >16 LEDs for the address. Perhaps a matter of taste ... > > > > > But come to think of it,. was not the 6809 board first > designed for your PDP 11 interface?. More than ample switches > and lights. True. I was not thinking of the I/O hardware capacity, but in the physical console, already built. The "blinkenlight" project can control the full-blown PDP-11/70 console (just), but if you need even more LEDs/switches to control, the design allows you to stack several I/O boards! Each I/O boards gives 64 input pins and 64 output pins, so go ahead and wire that S/3 console :-) - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 02:09:49 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:09:49 -0600 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <439FD34D.4060000@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Another work-around is to not use the 'char bogus[]' trick, and just > repeat the call to sprintf. The second one will work. I hate to mention the obvious, but have you tried tracing through the code in a debugger to see what is actually happening? If the first call fails but the second call works, that is (in my experience) something very easy to determine the cause of in a debugger. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 02:12:12 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:12:12 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <439FD3DC.4030404@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > been mentioned. But presumably you've not noticed the "Unlock email > address" link in each message? Look closely -- there's an ellipsis Good grief, I hadn't noticed this either. Sure beats the email-and-wait-for-it-to-bounce method! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 02:13:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:13:04 -0600 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <20051213195253.241230f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051213195253.241230f3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <439FD410.8020100@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > ICK! Have you ever run Windows 1 for any productive purpose? Sure, it was the runtime environment for the game Balance of Power ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 02:14:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:14:33 -0600 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439FD34D.4060000@oldskool.org> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FD34D.4060000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <439FD469.5070200@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > I hate to mention the obvious, but have you tried tracing through the > code in a debugger to see what is actually happening? If the first call > fails but the second call works, that is (in my experience) something > very easy to determine the cause of in a debugger. (I forgot to clarify in my post that I meant a low-level debugger, stepping through assembler instructions, etc. -- not a C++ source symbolic debugger) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Dec 14 02:18:05 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:18:05 +0100 Subject: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF259A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> All, thanks for the responses. I now know what to look for (21MX) on eBay. I am not in a hurry, I can wait, but I have http://www.manualsplus.com/ bookmarked. But the link to the pdf (Chapter 2) given by Bob is probably all I need to get going! thanks! - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: woensdag 14 december 2005 1:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for user manual of HP2113E or HP2117F > > On 12/13/05, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi, > > I am looking for the user manual (console operations) > > of the HP 2113E and / or HP 2117F. > > Anybody know a download site ? > > > > Two manuals that would be good to find are: > > 21MX E-Series Computer > HP 2109B and HP 2113B > Operating and Reference Manual > part number 02109-90014 > > -or- > > 21MX E-Series Computer > Technical Reference Handbook > part number 5950-3765 > > (you missed out on this one: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8719876844 ) > > Neither of these appear to be currently available on bitsavers > You can find the 2113/2117 front panel schematics here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/ > 92851-90001_Mar81_8.pdf This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Dec 14 03:48:27 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:48:27 GMT Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: PC-DOS 3.3" (Dec 14, 0:58) References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 14 2005, 0:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > wow, no I hadn't. They make that rather obscure! I only discovered it recently. I'd almost given up using it, for all the reaons you gave. As I see it, Google itself is easy to use, gives you the information you want by and large, in a sensible presentation. Google Groups doesn't fare well by comparison, so I use it infrequently. > well, I stand corrected. I might have to start liking Google again :) I wouldn't go that far :-) I said it "mostly" works. And the interface and layout still sucks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 14 05:41:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:41:27 +0000 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Dec 14 2005, 0:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> wow, no I hadn't. They make that rather obscure! > > I only discovered it recently. I'd almost given up using it, for all > the reaons you gave. As I see it, Google itself is easy to use, gives > you the information you want by and large, in a sensible presentation. > Google Groups doesn't fare well by comparison, so I use it > infrequently. > >> well, I stand corrected. I might have to start liking Google again :) > > I wouldn't go that far :-) I said it "mostly" works. And the > interface and layout still sucks. Oh sure, they still broke it as compared to the old interface - presumably in an attempt to appeal to the morons out there who can't think beyond the concept of a web forum :) Browsing the archive is much harder than it used to be, but at least the data *is* there in an unmasked form, which was the bit I was most concerned about. One day in a museum capacity I might approach them to see if I can get a copy of the raw archive data for some relevant computing groups (for the purposes of a local rather than online archive, to avoid anyone getting worried about competition). I'd be interesting to see whether they have a "defend our assets" big-business attitude or a "sure, we're doing this as an important archival tool" one... (or something inbetween) (incidentally out of habit I still type www.deja.com to get to the groups interface :-) cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 14 06:31:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:31:40 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRH00GP0MR5H6L1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: woodelf > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:29:00 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a >real keyboard... So unfornturnate, no material to build with. >Just PC stuff! I still not figured out the terminal design yet, but it >would have 3 over laping You could use a PC for a terminal >displays ... lowest level -- some sort of graphic display -- say 8 grey >or 8 colors -- 3 dots per >byte. Second level -- User Ascii with fixed colors and transparentcy. >Third level -- System Ascii >and borders and cursor pointers. Thats one way and likely the most complex hardware intense. Allison From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed Dec 14 06:46:29 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:46:29 +0100 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43A01425.5000805@ais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: > >> I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. >> The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with >> printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), >> inportb(H_ADDR0)); >> >> but the following code worked as expected, >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); >> printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); >> >> The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't >> have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. > The problem has to do with the evaluation order of function arguments. Typically, in C this is right to left, i.e. expect an inportb(H_ADDR0) to be executed first, second the H_ADDR1, third the H_ADDR2. If no the reading of H_ADDR0 influences the result on port H_ADDR1 and or H_ADDR2, then you get different results compared to the triple printf. However, the compiler is free to evaluate subexpressions in any order, provided they are evaluated before the final function is called. Thus, it is technically undefined what is printed for instance for printf("%d %d %d", i++,i--,i -= 3); The compiler has all rights to produce code that yields different results for both code fragments. Holger From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 07:30:12 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:30:12 -0500 Subject: GEM (was GEOWORKS) Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0512140530x330dacffm253a02f33b1b5632@mail.gmail.com> GEM was in fact developed by DR (Digita Research) and when DR got bought by Caldera, it became free software. Not "open source for non-commercial use" like CP/M or DR-DOS, but actual GPL software. Consequently, it has been developed into just about the best GUI you can throw onto a 286 and have work. See the latest version of the leading distro here: http://gem.shaneland.co.uk/opengem5core.html From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Dec 14 07:40:36 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:40:36 -0500 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <439F56E9.2030604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051211190412.CWHL11555.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> <1134508649.22645.31.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <439F56E9.2030604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1134567636.2052.5.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 16:19 -0700, woodelf wrote: > Brian Wheeler wrote: > > >In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it in 2 > >hours after the instructor had made several changes to either the wire > >wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL changes. The 2nd > >semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX system. > > > > > > > Was that the CMOS pdp chip or a TTL designed PDP? > We used a TTL chip for the ALU, and the rest of the logic was implemented using PAL (or PLD, I don't remember) chips. They're using FPGAs now: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/classes/b441/lab/ > >That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines > >(heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) > >burner. > > > >What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven > >burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's > >a reasonable price for one? > > > > > > > Use of a EEPROM may be a better idea as I think there are low cost designs > that hang off the printer port to burn a eeprom. I think commercial > burners run at > $399+ but I can't say for sure. > I was leaning towards eeprom, since it seems like we were forever baking the logic chips to fix our errors in that class... Brian > >Thanks! > >Brian > > > >. > > > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Dec 14 07:42:53 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:42:53 -0500 Subject: Ee?prom burners [Was: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates] In-Reply-To: <20051214025423.OFZE9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200512132051.jBDKpoCq025292@mail3.magma.ca> <20051214025423.OFZE9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <1134567773.2052.7.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 22:47 +0000, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > In college we wire-wrapped a pdp-8. The final was to repair it in 2 > > hours after the instructor had made several changes to either the wire > > wrappings, chip orientation (hot chips!) or PAL changes. The 2nd > > semester was wire-wrapping a 6809-based FLEX system. > > > > That said, the only thing that's really kept me from building machines > > (heh, besides time and money!) is the lack of an eprom (or eeprom) > > burner. > > > > What do you guys recommend? Are there instructions for PC-driven > > burners online somewhere that seem reasonable? If not homebuilt, what's > > a reasonable price for one? > > Although I have a 29B, I still do most of my "simple" EPROMS (2716-27256) > with a little homebrew burner that I also built back in the 80s. It too is based > on the 6809 (it's can run standlalone with a keypad or controlled via a host). > I have published the design which is available somewhere on my commercial > website if you are interested... > > However, I don't know that I would bother, as EPROMS are a pain in the butt > to program due to odd voltages which you must supply/switch - a modern flash > chip will do just as nicely and you can program it with TTL level signals. I did > a very simple flash device programmer via a PC parallel port (uses little adapters > for various flash devices). Thanks for all of the responses, everyone...I've got lots to think about (and with christmas being soon, I've got to think fast :) Brian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 14 07:55:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:55:33 +0000 Subject: GEM (was GEOWORKS) In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512140530x330dacffm253a02f33b1b5632@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512140530x330dacffm253a02f33b1b5632@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A02455.7020206@yahoo.co.uk> Madcrow Maxwell wrote: > GEM was in fact developed by DR (Digita Research) and when DR got > bought by Caldera, it became free software. Not "open source for > non-commercial use" like CP/M or DR-DOS, but actual GPL software. > Consequently, it has been developed into just about the best GUI you > can throw onto a 286 and have work. See the latest version of the > leading distro here: http://gem.shaneland.co.uk/opengem5core.html Obvious comment: picking a better background colour for the screenshot than "puke green" might be a wise move :-) And I admit to being curious as to what "new 3D interface" means. Or is that just marketing speak for "we added shadow effects to the buttons"? cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Dec 14 09:14:49 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:14:49 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439FD34D.4060000@oldskool.org> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FD34D.4060000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1134573289.43a036e92de2b@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Jim Leonard : > I hate to mention the obvious, but have you tried tracing through the code in > a > debugger to see what is actually happening? If the first call fails but the > > second call works, that is (in my experience) something very easy to > determine > the cause of in a debugger. No debugger .. while I'm a fan of debuggers (and I did a lot of work to implement the one on the BlueGene supercomputer), adding the extra symbols changes too much stuff. And in particular, the debugger in this IDE is attrocious. :-) If I had the stand-alone Turbo Debugger I might try it. What I really need is good listing and disassembly tools ... working with straight debug sucks. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Dec 14 09:22:38 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:22:38 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <20051214050242.AA09973029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051214050242.AA09973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <1134573758.43a038be1096a@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner : > > Which isn't vanilla C (but may be vanilla C++) ... Except for the function name, a C compiler would be pretty happy with it. The compiler is bad, but not that bad! > Sounds like a fixup problem. If it's the first constant string, then it > sounds like it's at offset 0 of some segment, and the linker may be thinking > it's a NULL value (easy to see how this could happen actually). And it may > be that that implementation of sprintf() checks for a NULL string, and if > so, "does the right thing" (not print anything, and return 0 characters > written). I'm guessing this too, but I can't figure out the difference. When the extra constant is not there a 0x0004 gets loaded into AX. When the extra constant is there, a 0x0005 gets loaded into AX. I might be looking at the wrong register before the call, but I never see a case of 0x0 or 0x1 being moved in - I think the 0x0004 and 0x0005 are the correct offsets. Now I'm wondering if sprintf is buggered, and just doesn't like 0x0004 as input on the call. Changing the constant string in sprintf to different things or changing the length didn't help. > > Can you produce Microsoft .obj files and link with LINK.EXE? > > -spc (Either that, or just forget C++ and use C ... ) > > It is producing OBJ files, but I'm not sure who's format it is. Historically I've been scared of using linkers directly, but I guess now it's time. :-) Another path I went down was searching for Turbo C++ 3.0 erratta on the web, but I wasn't able to find any lists. And Borland's site doesn't cover the old stuff, except for the downloads in the museum part. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Dec 14 09:24:22 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 07:24:22 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting 9000 VAX : > I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. > The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with > printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > but the following code worked as expected, > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); > printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't > have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. > > vax, 9000 > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I hurting myself unnecessarily using Turbo C++? Mike From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 14 09:34:48 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:34:48 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214094702.04218d18@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Wolfe, Julian may have mentioned these words: >Hey everyone, > >Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? >These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm >looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. I have a metric buttload of these suckers at home... those and the MCM68764's ( I have more '64s, but out of almost 10Kg of 'em, I'm sure I could find more than enough '66s ;-) There's one caveat: There in Panasonic HHC carriers, with a decoupling cap on the power pins already. So, to use them in a standard DIP socket, you'd need to unwrap the pins from the carrier & desolder the cap. It needs to be done carefully, but certainly doable - I used a few on a CoCo1 - I 'unwrapped' 8 chips one time, and 7 survived no problem. >Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum >order. That's way too much... I'm cheap (at least that's what my wife says.) ;-) If you want *me* to extract & erase the suckers, I won't be quite so cheap, but certainly not near that pricetag. How many do you actually need? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 10:09:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:09:21 -0600 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I hurting myself > unnecessarily using Turbo C++? It's the bomb, but you can't use it for your project because Watcom v11 is 386+ protected mode only. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/198 - Release Date: 12/12/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Dec 14 10:42:43 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:42:43 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <20051213160217.92632.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051213160217.92632.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43A04B83.6000405@atarimuseum.com> I was told that Wordperfect can import and read Dec Word-11 and WPS All in One files, is this true???? Curt > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/199 - Release Date: 12/13/2005 From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 11:13:06 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:13:06 -0500 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > Quoting 9000 VAX : > > > I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. > > The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with > > printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > > > but the following code worked as expected, > > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); > > printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); > > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > > > The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't > > have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. > > > > vax, 9000 > > > > > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I hurting myself > unnecessarily using Turbo C++? Faster, more compact code; can produce both 8086 executable and 80386 executable. I used it to run SIMH(386 mode) and now I use it's 8086 mode to compile software derived from SIMH. The only problem is that I don't have software to make EPROM image that supports Watcom file format. I use Watcom C 11 because it is open and free. TC2.01 is free (price) but it can't handle // style comments or 64 bit long word. TC has a more convenient IDE. I use TC2.01 to write short test programs. vax, 9000 > > Mike > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 11:14:28 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:14:28 -0500 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I hurting myself > > unnecessarily using Turbo C++? > > It's the bomb, but you can't use it for your project because Watcom v11 is > 386+ protected mode only. The compiler is protected mode only. The 8086 executable can run on a 8086 PC. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ > A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ > Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/198 - Release Date: 12/12/2005 > > From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 11:57:11 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:57:11 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <439F22BF.2020004@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IRG00K82A4IS2L4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439F22BF.2020004@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 12/13/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Allison wrote: > >>Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 > >> From: Jim Leonard > >> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:43:15 -0600 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >>Allison wrote: > >> > >>>A friend uses WP8 or 9 as Word is not optimum for legal > >>>briefs and the like. > >> > >>Why? > > > > > > At the time (5-7 years ago) it was the standard in the legal industry > > as it handled footnotes, citations and other aspects of legal documents > > better than work at the time. That may have changed, maybe. > > I think this is a regional thing, at least to some extent, but it has > changed a little. (I'm "primary tech nerd" for a lawyer friend, so I > have the latest skinny) > > WP is still the common application of choice, but where most > electronic documents were submitted as WordPerfect documents 3-5 years > ago, PDF is now the preferred submission format. This has a lot to do > with the perceived security of a PDF document, and the fact that it's > mostly application-agnostic. > > Please note that I said _perceived_ security! I do know it's not > difficult to alter a PDF. The public, for the most part, doesn't. > > > Doc > My employer does a lot of business with the DOJ and they still insist everything be delivered in WP format. This has been the source of no small amount of friction, as our own contracts specify Word-formatted documents. - Mike From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 14 11:59:45 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:59:45 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I > hurting myself > > unnecessarily using Turbo C++? > > It's the bomb, but you can't use it for your project because Watcom v11 is > 386+ protected mode only. Has anyone tried real mode development with the Digital Mars C++ compiler? It claims to build 8088 code.... Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 14 11:59:45 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:59:45 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <1134573862.43a039263a189@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43A043B1.8080600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > > mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > In general, how is Watcom C 11.0 compared to Turbo C++ 3.0? Am I > hurting myself > > unnecessarily using Turbo C++? > > It's the bomb, but you can't use it for your project because Watcom v11 is > 386+ protected mode only. Has anyone tried real mode development with the Digital Mars C++ compiler? It claims to build 8088 code.... Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 14 12:11:14 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:11:14 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRH00GP0MR5H6L1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRH00GP0MR5H6L1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A06042.5060602@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >Thats one way and likely the most complex hardware intense. > > > Well I hardware to do -- hardware. I favor the default hardware is setup ready to run with out programing. This could be because I watched too much Star Trek and the computers have no Manual over-rides. I tend to think of most modern hardware too software programable and setup stupid like the default BIOS clock setting. >Allison > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 14 12:35:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:35:43 -0800 Subject: Toshiba T3100/e memory upgrade In-Reply-To: <01C5FFB9.0F1CB760@MSE_D03> References: <01C5FFB9.0F1CB760@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200512141035430188.23053E36@10.0.0.252> On 12/13/2005 at 7:43 AM M H Stein wrote: >Looks like 4 standard 30-pin modules, 256KB or 1MB, but it doesn't >recognize any of the ones I've tried so I assume there's something >proprietary about them. > >Anybody have any info or experience? Can't say much about the T3100, but I've got a couple of cartridges for the T1000/T2000 and they're 3.3v, not 5. Wonder if that might have something to do with your problem? A quick voltage check on the sockets might tell you what you need to know. BTW, does anyone have a use for two 4 MB T1000/T2000 carts? I got them with a bunch of other miscellaneous memory and don't really have any use for them myself. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 14 13:16:24 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:16:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 14, 2005 01:20:34 AM Message-ID: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great 9000 VAX once stated: > > I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. > The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with > printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > but the following code worked as expected, > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); > printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); > printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); > > The hardware is straightforward and unlikely to have problem. I don't > have time to determine the real source of this problem, though. Did you need to read the ports in the sequence H_ADDR2, H_ADDR1 and H_ADDR0, or could they be read in any sequence? Because in C, parameters are evaluated right to left ... -spc (rarely is it an issue though ... ) From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 14 13:31:30 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:31:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <1134573758.43a038be1096a@webmail.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Dec 14, 2005 07:22:38 AM Message-ID: <20051214193130.B451873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com once stated: > > Quoting Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner : > > > > > Which isn't vanilla C (but may be vanilla C++) ... > > Except for the function name, a C compiler would be pretty happy with it. The > compiler is bad, but not that bad! > > > Sounds like a fixup problem. If it's the first constant string, then it > > sounds like it's at offset 0 of some segment, and the linker may be thinking > > it's a NULL value (easy to see how this could happen actually). And it may > > be that that implementation of sprintf() checks for a NULL string, and if > > so, "does the right thing" (not print anything, and return 0 characters > > written). > > I'm guessing this too, but I can't figure out the difference. When the extra > constant is not there a 0x0004 gets loaded into AX. When the extra constant is > there, a 0x0005 gets loaded into AX. I might be looking at the wrong register > before the call, but I never see a case of 0x0 or 0x1 being moved in - I think > the 0x0004 and 0x0005 are the correct offsets. The problem may be happening at the linking stage, not the runtime stage (although that's there the anomalous behavior is seen). A sequence like: printf("%d %s",23,"hello"); Produces code like: segment data text1 db '%d %s',0 text2 db 'hello',0 segment code pushl offset text2 pushl 23 pushl offset text1 call printf But the object code produces an output like: data_blob text1: db '%d %s',0 text2: db 'hello',0 code_blob line1: pushl 0 line2: pushl 23 line3: pushl 0 line4: call 0 fixup_data in code_blob @ line1 byte offset 1 change to address of data_blob line 2 in code_blob @ line 3 byte offset 1 change to address of data_blob line 1 in code_blob @ line4 byte offset 1 change to address of external_code_blob printf It may be that because the offset of text1 is at offset 0 of the data segment (as stored in the data_blob) the linker may think it's actually NULL and do something different. It's not a compiler error, so running the resulting code under a debugger won't find it---it's a linking error. -spc (has found compiler errors, but never a linker error ... ) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Dec 14 13:34:08 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:34:08 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214094702.04218d18@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000901c600e5$5ab993a0$6401a8c0@dementium> Well, I only need two for my M8189. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Merchberger Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? Rumor has it that Wolfe, Julian may have mentioned these words: >Hey everyone, > >Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? >These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm >looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. I have a metric buttload of these suckers at home... those and the MCM68764's ( I have more '64s, but out of almost 10Kg of 'em, I'm sure I could find more than enough '66s ;-) There's one caveat: There in Panasonic HHC carriers, with a decoupling cap on the power pins already. So, to use them in a standard DIP socket, you'd need to unwrap the pins from the carrier & desolder the cap. It needs to be done carefully, but certainly doable - I used a few on a CoCo1 - I 'unwrapped' 8 chips one time, and 7 survived no problem. >Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum >order. That's way too much... I'm cheap (at least that's what my wife says.) ;-) If you want *me* to extract & erase the suckers, I won't be quite so cheap, but certainly not near that pricetag. How many do you actually need? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 13:45:18 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 14:45:18 -0500 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Did you need to read the ports in the sequence H_ADDR2, H_ADDR1 and > H_ADDR0, or could they be read in any sequence? Because in C, parameters > are evaluated right to left ... No, The order is not important. But I have a clue now. It might be that Watcom C treats printf() function differently from other functions. I think the compiler tends to delay the execution of printf(), given that variables to be printed have not yet updated by the program. But this trick (to execute printf() with other printf()'s for speed?) does not work well if the program needs to read hardware inside of printf(). I actually observed the "delayed printf()" phenomenon and its effect here is my guess. vax, 9000 > > -spc (rarely is it an issue though ... ) > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 14 14:25:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:25:48 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: References: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200512141225480395.236A0792@10.0.0.252> On 12/14/2005 at 2:45 PM 9000 VAX wrote: > >No, The order is not important. But I have a clue now. It might be >that Watcom C treats printf() function differently from other >functions. I think the compiler tends to delay the execution of >printf(), given that variables to be printed have not yet updated by >the program. But this trick (to execute printf() with other printf()'s >for speed?) does not work well if the program needs to read hardware >inside of printf(). I actually observed the "delayed printf()" >phenomenon and its effect here is my guess. Well, printf() does write to a buffered stream, doesn't it, so it will be delayed unless you also issue a fflush(stdout) immediately thereafter. When I'm debugging my own code, I use my own unbuffered printf(); it's smaller, faster and doesn't require that I include all of the stdio streams library if I don't need it otherwise. I believe that MS C provides a similar facility with _cprintf(). Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 14 14:31:29 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:31:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <200512141225480395.236A0792@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 14, 2005 12:25:48 PM Message-ID: <20051214203129.B548D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 12/14/2005 at 2:45 PM 9000 VAX wrote: > > > > >No, The order is not important. But I have a clue now. It might be > >that Watcom C treats printf() function differently from other > >functions. I think the compiler tends to delay the execution of > >printf(), given that variables to be printed have not yet updated by > >the program. But this trick (to execute printf() with other printf()'s > >for speed?) does not work well if the program needs to read hardware > >inside of printf(). I actually observed the "delayed printf()" > >phenomenon and its effect here is my guess. > > Well, printf() does write to a buffered stream, doesn't it, so it will be > delayed unless you also issue a fflush(stdout) immediately thereafter. Or you call setvbuf(). You can turn off buffering on stdout by: setvbuf(stdout,NULL,_IONBF,0); But I'll stop here before turning this into a C support list 8-) -spc (Who ended up writing my own IO routines in C anyway ... ) From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 14 14:39:57 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:39:57 -0500 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs References: <20051214203129.B548D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <002c01c600ee$8c307440$0500fea9@game> So what is the best C++ for DOS and for Windows 3.1 platforms? I am thinking about picking something up for use on my 386/40. From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 14:43:06 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:43:06 -0500 Subject: DOS Compatable OS Message-ID: I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 14 14:50:28 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:50:28 -0000 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004701c600f0$06a7f760$5b01a8c0@pc1> Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small > project OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any > decent resource for information on dos compatability and how to > achieve it, or is it left as a reverse engineering exercise for 'the > reader' ? :) Would this help http://www.freedos.org/ ? -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 14 14:53:27 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:53:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Dec 14, 2005 03:43:06 PM Message-ID: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Gary Sparkes once stated: > > I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project > OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource > for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as > a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) How compatable? If you go by the published API for MS-DOS 1.x, then it should be pretty easy, but if by "compatable" you mean "run arbitrary MS-DOS programs, especially those from Microsoft" you may have your work cut out for you. You may want to check out http://www.freedos.org/. -spc (But remember, MS-DOS 1.0 is a something of a CP/M for the 8086 world ... ) From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:11:31 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:11:31 -0500 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 3:53 PM, "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Gary Sparkes once stated: >> >> I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project >> OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource >> for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as >> a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) > > How compatable? If you go by the published API for MS-DOS 1.x, then it > should be pretty easy, but if by "compatable" you mean "run arbitrary MS-DOS > programs, especially those from Microsoft" you may have your work cut out > for you. You may want to check out http://www.freedos.org/. > > -spc (But remember, MS-DOS 1.0 is a something of a CP/M for the 8086 > world ... ) I was thinking of going up compatability in versions, such as going from 1.x to 2.x etc, mainly because, well, I'm very, very bored :) And of course, it'd be IBM PC compatable stuff, not the odd machine MS-DOS running thingies From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:16:22 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:16:22 +0000 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <26c11a640512141316h48ae22cdp@mail.gmail.com> > How compatable? If you go by the published API for MS-DOS 1.x, then it > should be pretty easy, but if by "compatable" you mean "run arbitrary MS-DOS > programs, especially those from Microsoft" you may have your work cut out > for you. You may want to check out http://www.freedos.org/. > > -spc (But remember, MS-DOS 1.0 is a something of a CP/M for the 8086 > world ... ) > > > > If you want the source code for cp/m-86 go here : http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html There are binaries and some cbios listings that might give you a head start. Dan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 14 15:24:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 13:24:04 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <002c01c600ee$8c307440$0500fea9@game> References: <20051214203129.B548D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <002c01c600ee$8c307440$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200512141324040162.239F5E70@10.0.0.252> On 12/14/2005 at 3:39 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >So what is the best C++ for DOS and for Windows 3.1 platforms? I am >thinking about picking something up for use on my 386/40. That's a really tough question (although some may disagree). When I was writing code for commercial sale, I stayed with Microsoft C++ for the simple reason that it was what Microsoft expected me to use and what they wrote their reference manuals and other documentation for. Borland Turbo C++ was also popular, but it has the danger of speaking the Queen's English in the Bronx--most of what you say will be understood, but as a friend discovered who called the front desk at her hotel to ask them to "knock her up" at 7:30 the next morning, it's not guaranteed. If I were doing this for my own amusement, I'd stick with the DJGPP C++ 32-bit platform. None of the 16-bit nonsense to bother you. Cheers, Chuck From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 15:51:13 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:51:13 -0500 Subject: GEM Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0512141351i58fb8b77g84bc0b869dbc2957@mail.gmail.com> >And I admit to being curious as to what "new 3D interface" means. Or is that >just marketing speak for "we added shadow effects to the buttons"? You got it. Although to be fair, it does look nicer than "flat" buttons. Frankly, it's that big an innovation though. 3D buttons were in OpenGEM 3 and were taken out from version 4 as the implementation as of 2003 or so meant that it took up too much memory. Clearly they either fixed the memory problem or just don't care anymore. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 16:07:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:07:35 -0600 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <002c01c600ee$8c307440$0500fea9@game> References: <20051214203129.B548D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> <002c01c600ee$8c307440$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <43A097A7.4090802@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > So what is the best C++ for DOS and for Windows 3.1 platforms? I am thinking > about picking something up for use on my 386/40. For a 386/40, I'd say Watcom. Watcom performs some optimizations I'm too lazy to do myself, such as warming the cache and using floating point registers in interesting ways. Of course, it completely depends on your target requirements. If you're developing for an IBM PCjr like Mike Brutman is, you might want a compiler that favors size over speed, or at least has that as a compiler option. If portability with the OSS community is paramount, stick with gcc. If you want a fancy IDE and symbolic debugger, go with Borland C and/or Turbo C. So, like most answers, "it depends." -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 16:09:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:09:00 -0600 Subject: GEM In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0512141351i58fb8b77g84bc0b869dbc2957@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512141351i58fb8b77g84bc0b869dbc2957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A097FC.2060101@oldskool.org> Madcrow Maxwell wrote: > You got it. Although to be fair, it does look nicer than "flat" > buttons. Frankly, it's that big an innovation though. 3D buttons were > in OpenGEM 3 and were taken out from version 4 as the implementation > as of 2003 or so meant that it took up too much memory. Clearly they > either fixed the memory problem or just don't care anymore. "Just don't care". I can't run it on my 8088 any more, although it runs on my 286. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Dec 14 16:19:20 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:19:20 -0000 Subject: OT 3Com terminal server Message-ID: <000701c600fc$6ed13200$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, I've just purchased a second hand 3Com CS2600 terminal server, but it was sold without its software does anyone have a spare, unloved copy of the Multiprotocol Communications Server software? 3Com are only interested if you have a pre-exisiting service contract :( Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 14 15:32:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:32:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Dec 13, 5 10:09:00 pm Message-ID: > > I remember when I first used this piece of low-budget software 12 years > ago that it had some interesting bugs, most of which surfaced when you > used 'clever' features of C++, such as pure virtuals, destructors, etc. I found some interesting 'bugs' in the plain C part. In particular malloc() would return pointers to areas of memory that definitely were not free. That made for some interesting results. I remember calling Borland's so-called support about this. They told me that if I wanted to use malloc(), I should be using C and not C++. I then asked them what product I should buy to compile C programs under MS-DOS, They told me Borland C for MS-DOS version . I asked them where to get it and how much, they then told be it was discontinued, and that the replacement was Turbo C++ v3.0. At this point I realised that commercial software was simply not worth bothering with, I went over to open source stuff and have never had any more problems.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 14 15:35:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:35:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <439F9F8C.3020406@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 13, 5 09:29:00 pm Message-ID: > >Or do like I did in the original portable unit - put on a 6845 and do your > >own video display. > > > > > > > No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a > real keyboard... Well, you could make them!. For the monitor, convert a portable TV (I wonder if those little 5" B&W TVs that seem to be available everwhere can be turned into something useful. I can't believe they're that complicated inside...). For the keyboard, either pull apart a PC keyboard and use the swithc matrix, or make an interface between the PC keyboard (PS/2 type port, I guess) and the rest of the system -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 14 16:10:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:10:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Dec 14, 5 02:16:24 pm Message-ID: > Did you need to read the ports in the sequence H_ADDR2, H_ADDR1 and > H_ADDR0, or could they be read in any sequence? Because in C, parameters > are evaluated right to left ... Are they? That's news to me. I thought they could be evaluated in any order (or even in parallel). -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 16:19:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:19:24 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A09A6C.9030404@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > One day in a museum capacity I might approach them to see if I can get a > copy of the raw archive data for some relevant computing groups (for the > purposes of a local rather than online archive, to avoid anyone getting > worried about competition). I'd be interesting to see whether they have > a "defend our assets" big-business attitude or a "sure, we're doing this > as an important archival tool" one... (or something inbetween) I think the most likely answer you'll get is "sure, but who will front the cost?" The usenet archive is somewhere between 200 to 300 terabytes, if memory serves. I suppose you could buy two fully-stocked CLARiiON towers to hold it all, but what museum has that kind of money? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 14 16:32:38 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:32:38 -0500 Subject: More Info on 68766 chips... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214165605.04bb7ed8@mail.30below.com> I just thought I'd let y'all know that anyone who doesn't have an EPROM burner that can burn 68764/6 chips, I do, so if you need 'em erased & programmed, I can do that as well... if you send me Intel Hex or S-record format files. (The software can do binary files, but I don't trust email for not munging it... ;-) By far the "hardest" (read: time-consuming) work is extracting the chips from the carriers... I'll see what I have directly at hand (read: without needing to dig 'round the attic) for '66s and email y'all tonite or first thing tomorrow. I'm cheap, no minimum order, I throw extras in for free (if you order 2, you'll get 4 "just in case" ;-) I take paypal or if you can get away with it, foreign to the US coin/currency (usually at a great discount - I've collected coins longer than computers, and I have a pretty decent foreign collection, especially for a dumbass American! ;^> [[ For clarity's sake: "decent" != "expensive" - I ain't rich, and never will be! ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 14 16:49:22 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:49:22 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <43A09A6C.9030404@oldskool.org> References: <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214174704.0433de68@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Jules Richardson wrote: [snippety] >>"for some relevant computing groups" [snippety] >The usenet archive is somewhere between 200 to 300 terabytes, if memory >serves. Methinks the unsnipped part is the relevant idea there - I doubt he wants the entire archive, just some of the (I'm guessing here) classic groups. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Dec 14 16:49:59 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:49:59 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates Message-ID: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CUBIX/6809 updates > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:35:50 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >Or do like I did in the original portable unit - put on a 6845 and do your >> >own video display. >> > >> > >> > >> No way that would work, as I don't have a TTL level monitor here, or a >> real keyboard... > >Well, you could make them!. For the monitor, convert a portable TV (I >wonder if those little 5" B&W TVs that seem to be available everwhere can >be turned into something useful. I can't believe they're that complicated >inside...). For the keyboard, either pull apart a PC keyboard and use the >swithc matrix, or make an interface between the PC keyboard (PS/2 type >port, I guess) and the rest of the system You can find PC keyboards with 8048/9 or 8051 and put a reporgramed MPU in. The reprogram can be done one of two ways, disable the internal rom and piggy back a LS373 and 2716 or use the 87xx eprom part. An those small B&W TVs are very modifyable, though at 5" 80char lines are going to be tiny. There's at least one person out there that did it. Or find a old HERC compatable (9pin) monochrome PC display even when not working they are easy to fix. Allison From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 14 16:55:26 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:55:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 14, 2005 10:10:27 PM Message-ID: <20051214225527.B697573029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > Did you need to read the ports in the sequence H_ADDR2, H_ADDR1 and > > H_ADDR0, or could they be read in any sequence? Because in C, parameters > > are evaluated right to left ... > > Are they? That's news to me. I thought they could be evaluated in any > order (or even in parallel). I always thought they were, but then again, I know enough about C to avoid the areas that are undefined or implementation dependent; I might have gotten the parameter passing convention mixed up with that, because under Pascal, parameters, as they appear on the stack, go left to right (rightmost ends up at the top of the stack) whereas in C, it's right to left (leftmost ends up at the top of the stack). -spc (So C can have functions that have an unspecified number of parameters, whereas Pascal can't ... ) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 14 17:03:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:03:18 -0500 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051214180318.76e265f5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:43:06 -0500 Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a > small project OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is > there any decent resource for information on dos compatability > and how to achieve it, or is it left as a reverse engineering > exercise for 'the reader' ? :) > > The PC-DOS 1.0 Reference manual has all the system calls included in it. That material was split out to the DOS Technical Reference for later versions. For 'compatability' purposes, just code to the system calls and resist the temptation to do an end-run to BIOS routines for efficiency's sake. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 14 17:06:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:06:31 -0700 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A0A577.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >You can find PC keyboards with 8048/9 or 8051 and put a reporgramed MPU >in. The reprogram can be done one of two ways, disable the internal rom >and piggy back a LS373 and 2716 or use the 87xx eprom part. > > > I used a real keyboard once -- Pc's don't have real keyboards -- you type with the mouse :D >An those small B&W TVs are very modifyable, though at 5" 80char lines are >going to be tiny. There's at least one person out there that did it. > >Or find a old HERC compatable (9pin) monochrome PC display even when >not working they are easy to fix. > > I think a B&W VGA is what I want. Next years project ... 25x96 serial terminal :) Wait a moment -- VGA's are only 640 x 480 , I want 864 x 480 ! >Allison > >. > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 14 17:10:22 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 15:10:22 -0800 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'm also looking for a copy of the devkit for Windows 1.0X. >> Being able to code for Windows 1 would kick a**. >> > >ICK! Have you ever run Windows 1 for any productive purpose? Yes. Windows 1 was much better than Windows 2. It was smaller and faster and it could multitask well behaved MS-DOS applications (i.e. ones I wrote myself) in a window. It was great for compiling code in the background. Who needs overlapping windows.... I used to use In-a-Vision for CAD. Once I got an ATI VGA Wonder for my V30 machine, I was running Windows 1.0 at 800x600 in 16 lovely colors. I was so annoyed after upgrading to Windows 3.0 that In-a-Vision only worked in real mode, but not in standard or enhanced (386 protected) modes. I was even more annoyed when Windows 3.1 got rid of real mode. (Yes, I have used Windows 3.0 on an XT. It's very painful) Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 14 17:11:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:11:24 -0700 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <20051214225527.B697573029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051214225527.B697573029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <43A0A69C.9070707@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (So C can have functions that have an unspecified number of > parameters, whereas Pascal can't ... ) > > No it would be harder to do variable args in Pascal ... the language not the stacking is the problem. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 17:26:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:26:03 -0600 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214174704.0433de68@mail.30below.com> References: <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439D9E81.30109@retrobbs.org> <200512121013520860.18A48FB0@10.0.0.252> <439DF953.2030305@oldskool.org> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> <200512121625420843.19F8FAF3@10.0.0.252> <200512131105040429.1DF9C4A9@10.0.0.252> <439F1F02.2090908@yahoo.co.uk> <439F478E.30502@oldskool.org> <439F542C.1010704@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140003.ZM5656@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <439F6E19.10709@yahoo.co.uk> <10512140948.ZM6717@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43A004E7.1070407@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051214174704.0433de68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A0AA0B.8060908@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Methinks the unsnipped part is the relevant idea there - I doubt he > wants the entire archive, just some of the (I'm guessing here) classic > groups. Oh. Hadn't thought of that. Yes, rec.pets would shave a terabyte, easily :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 17:27:14 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 17:27:14 -0600 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A0AA52.2030303@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > (Yes, I have used Windows 3.0 on an XT. It's very painful) win /r itself wasn't that bad... what hurt more was the lack of applications that would run on it. Even the flying toasters required 286 protected mode IIRC. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Dec 14 17:40:07 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:40:07 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <43A0A577.7060503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >I used a real keyboard once -- Pc's don't have real keyboards You've obviously never used an IBM Model 'M' keyboard then! Yes, I have several, yes, they're ancient (in PC terms), yes, they're all I'll use for as long as I can keep 'em running. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 14 17:42:22 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:42:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051214191624.5CD0E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200512142344.SAA19081@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]? Because in C, parameters are evaluated right to left ... No. In some implementations of C, they are. In C - as distinct from any implementation of C - parameter evaluation order is unspecified and indeed may be ill-defined (evaluation of different parameters may be intertwined if the compiler finds it convenient). But it sounds as though evaluation order is not the issue here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 18:12:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:12:35 -0600 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> References: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A0B4F3.4020105@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Yes, I have several, yes, they're ancient (in PC terms), yes, they're > all I'll use for as long as I can keep 'em running. I switched over to model Ms exclusively around 1994 and all of my hand pain went away. The tactile (and audible) feedback stopped me from pressing down too hard on the keys; I was (subconsciously) never sure if my keystrokes were registering or not with "mushy" keyboards. At work, I use the model m variant with the trackpoint in the middle of the keyboard (cable ends in both PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse connectors) -- my hands *never leave the keyboard* and I just love it! The only reason I have an external pointing device at home is to play games. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 21:33:33 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:33:33 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 6:40 PM, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >> I used a real keyboard once -- Pc's don't have real keyboards > > You've obviously never used an IBM Model 'M' keyboard then! > > Yes, I have several, yes, they're ancient (in PC terms), yes, they're all > I'll use for as long as I can keep 'em running. I'm almost in love with my Model M, the black M13, it has a nub style mouse built in and a connector on the back so I can plug in another mouse :) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 14 21:50:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:50:48 -0800 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <43A0B4F3.4020105@oldskool.org> References: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> <43A0B4F3.4020105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512141950480688.25016E4E@10.0.0.252> On 12/14/2005 at 6:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I was (subconsciously) never sure if my keystrokes >were registering or not with "mushy" keyboards. I think it's not the "mushiness", but a question of key travel. I despise notebook keyboards because of their short travel. I've got a couple of old NCR keyboards (made in Germany by Cherry) that don't have the hard "click" feel of the IBM, but have generous key travel nonetheless. If they could do F11 and F12, I'd still be using them (oddly, there are 30 function keys, but the 11-20 and 21-30 just generate shift- and ctrl- F1-10 respectively. And F1-10 are where they belong--on the left side. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 14 23:27:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:27:54 -0600 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512141950480688.25016E4E@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> <43A0B4F3.4020105@oldskool.org> <200512141950480688.25016E4E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A0FEDA.8020703@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/14/2005 at 6:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>I was (subconsciously) never sure if my keystrokes >>were registering or not with "mushy" keyboards. > > I think it's not the "mushiness", but a question of key travel. I despise > notebook keyboards because of their short travel. I've got a couple of old IBM Thinkpads have better travel than others, I've found. Toshibas have some of the worst. Just my opinion. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ken at seefried.com Wed Dec 14 23:55:29 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:55:29 -0500 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller Message-ID: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Does anyone make a PCI Bus ESDI disk controller? Doesn't have to be 64-bit, 66MHz or PCI-X...:-) Ken From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 15 00:09:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:09:16 -0800 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone make a PCI Bus ESDI disk controller? > >Doesn't have to be 64-bit, 66MHz or PCI-X...:-) > >Ken I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI came out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind of think that MCA would be your best bet. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 00:31:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:31:14 -0800 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200512142231140471.25944DAE@10.0.0.252> On 12/14/2005 at 10:09 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI >came out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind >of think that MCA would be your best bet. ISA ESDI controllers shouldn't be hard to find; EISA and VLB ESDI controllers also existed. But I can't say that I've seen a PCI version. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 15 00:37:44 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 00:37:44 -0600 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <43A10F38.701@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone make a PCI Bus ESDI disk controller? >> Doesn't have to be 64-bit, 66MHz or PCI-X...:-) > > I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI came > out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind of think > that MCA would be your best bet. The fastest ESDI controller I ever saw was a VLB (VESA Local Bus) adapter. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Thu Dec 15 01:35:48 2005 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 02:35:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun 386i available Message-ID: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> (Is that a classic yet? :) Located in Gloucester, MA. The monitor probably makes shipping impractical. Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com From robin.england at dial.pipex.com Mon Dec 12 10:11:58 2005 From: robin.england at dial.pipex.com (robin england) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 16:11:58 +0000 Subject: ROM dumps for Heathkit / Zenith 88, 89 etc Message-ID: <1134403918.439da14eaf452@netmail.pipex.net> Hi Patrick Please excuse the direct communication; I got your email address from posts on the Classic Computers message board, hope you don't mind. I am trying to locate ROM dumps for a couple of H88 / Z89 machines I have. In the H88, the MTR-89 (444-62) ROM is dead. In the Z89 the MTR-90 ROM has been removed (444-142). Can you help me, or direct me to a place where I can obtain dumps of these ROMs? I am also interested in CP/M resources for these machines. Currently both machines have the hard-sectored controller and the disks I do have are HDOS only. Do you know where I can obtain images for CP/M disks? Once again, apologies for the direct contact and thanks for your time. Regards, Robin England robin.england at dial.pipex.com From jclang at notms.net Mon Dec 12 16:52:49 2005 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:52:49 -0500 Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface In-Reply-To: <200512110924020848.1350910B@10.0.0.252> References: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> <200512110924020848.1350910B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <05121217524900.28596@bell> On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:24, you wrote: > On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >Eelco Huininga wrote: > >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? > > On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for > medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few > handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 > capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. > > Cheers, > Chuck If your goal is to be a controller in a single controller system,you can do IEEE-488 with only i/o ports and proper drivers (75160/75161/75162) If you are trying to make a target device you need hardware help. The required time to get off the bus when ATN is asserted is far too short to do in software. Just a couple of gates will do. All you need do is detect the assertion of ATN ,disable the drivers and force not ready for data. The CPU can take its time setting outputs to the correct state before re enabling the drivers NRFD will hold off the controller. I know a lot of systems that implement IEEE-488 controller with nothing more than PIAs and drivers. joe lang From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Mon Dec 12 18:09:00 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:09:00 -0600 Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10D441DF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hello! I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest (KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every time. Can anyone help me out? Thanks Julian From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 12 19:50:26 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:50:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph Message-ID: <20051213015026.21953.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> >From one of the XT clones I got something I have heard of but >never seen before: an 8-bit controller card for IDE drives. It >has a BIOS extension on it and some other chips, I haven't >studied it thorougly yet. There were a few XT IDE controllers back in the day. The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the sIDE/16 or something. People who have used them claim they work well. Either this one was blown to begin with or the drive was at fault. It's mostly discrete logic, the exception being a GAL or PAL as I recall. There wasn't any firmware on it from what I remember. What did I do with the thing? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kerr_avon at hotmail.co.uk Mon Dec 12 21:22:47 2005 From: kerr_avon at hotmail.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 03:22:47 +0000 Subject: Getting rid of my collection, Pt.1 Message-ID: Hi, it's been quite a while since I last posted to this list (about 4 1/2 years I believe) but it's good to see many familiar names still popping up. Anyway, the last 4 years have seen some major uphevals in my life and I find myself in the position of needing to get rid of pretty much my entire collection of "classic" machines fairly quickly. A friend of mine did post a similar message here on my behalf back in March, but, due to an unforseen series of real world problems, I either lost contact with or wasn't able to reply to people. I'll be offering up this "junk" in batches as I sort through each afflicted room to see what's in there, the first batch being as follows: 3Com "3Station" - 2 off DEC PDP-11/53 (BA-23 Cabinet) DEC MicroVAX II (BA-23 Cabinet) DEC MicroVAX II (BA-123 Cabinet) - 2 off DEC VAXConsole (Pro-350?) HP LaserJet+ IBM AS/400 Model 9404 - with expansion cabinet (never gotten it to fire up) IBM RS/6000 Model 520 IBM PC/RT - CAD system including 19" colour monitor, graphics "box" & more Pr1me 2455 - c/w terminal & kbd, but no hard/tape drives (SCSI) SGI Iris 4D/70 GT Tandon Pac286(?) - c/w mono monitor, kbd, printer etc In addition, I also have an unidentified 19" SGI monitor (manufactured by Philips, in a cream case), a pile of assorted DEC manuals, two or three boxes of assorted Q-Bus and Unibus boards (don't ask me what they are as they're in storage and I don't have a list) and a full tower AT case with PSU to go. I'm not looking to sell this gear, I'd rather give it to people on this list with the time and enthusiasm to do something with it. That said, considering how much petrol money it cost me to collect, I'd certainly appreciate donations any of the following: SCSI hard drives (10Gb or larger, or IDE drives at a pinch) Hauppauge Media MVPs Rio Receivers (sometimes badged "Dell") PCI DVB-T cards PCI DVB-S cards Pinnacle "Showcentre"s (fat chance) "Classic" MP3 players or the odd fiver if you feel that way inclined. :-) All this equipment is located in Birmingham (UK) and has to be collected, I do not have the means to deliver and it's far too heavy to even consider posting (with the possible exception of the "3Stations"). As I said, I need to shift this stuff fairly quickly - as soon as humanly possible really (this side of Christmas would be just perfect). The absolute deadline will be sometime in Feb, anything that hasn't gone by then WILL go in the nearest skip I can find - no matter how rare/desirable it may be. Please contact me off-list if you're interested in any of this stuff. Thanks. TTFN - Pete. _________________________________________________________________ Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free newsletters! http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 13 09:02:04 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 07:02:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5 Floppy Drives Message-ID: <20051213150204.77125.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> APC and the Xerox 16/8 had 8inch drives as an option. So did the Canon as-100 *very rare*. Dave Dunfield has Dos 2.? for the APC on his site. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 12/12/2005 at 9:08 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >I have heard of (but not seen) machines with 8" floppies that run > >MS-DOS 1.x (not real sure what version). I could probably > >contrive my MicroMint MPX-16 to behave in that fashion if I > >installed an 8" drive on it to do the conversion. (would be > >tricky getting it to support 5-1/4" and 8" simulatneously, and > >maybe even impossible). > > You may want to look at what the NEC APC did for MS-DOS and 8" drives. I > think I've got a couple of original 8" MS-DOS diskettes for the APC, but I > don't recall what version. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Tue Dec 13 11:45:48 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:45:48 -0500 Subject: Fancy Font? In-Reply-To: <20051213161412.18248.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200512131756.jBDHubcV094693@keith.ezwind.net> Fancy font was a wonderful program, I wrote and formatted an 80+ page book [Programming Autocad] in the early 80's using it running on an SD systems S100 Z80 system running MP/M before moving to a 5 slot PC. Are there any SD system people lurking here ? The first time I saw HTML I remarked to a coworker that it had to have been based on fancy font. Does anyone know, was there a connection between them ? Thanks for the flash back... Bob Bradlee On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 08:14:12 -0800 (PST), Al Hartman wrote: >Anyone ever use this? >That ad for the Zebra Disk System a few posts back, >was done on an Imsai Computer using CP/M 2.2 with a >Z80 Board in it. >I processed the text using WordStar and put in >commands VERY similar to HTML to output text to an >FX-80 F/T Printer with a program called Fancy Font... >Which I guess would be called a RIP, but it wasn't >PostScript. >Later, we moved to the IBM PC Version of this program >I ran on either an Eagle XT Clone, or an XT Clone I >was using. >Further on... I was using an Atari-ST Upgraded to >2.5mb with a Magic Sac Cartridge (Mac 512 Emulator) a >20mb Atari Disk Drive, and Epstart to get my Epson >FX-80 F/T to emulate an Imagewriter using Adobe Type >Manager for better font handling. >THOSE were the days... When squeezing "Letter Quality" >out of old Dot Matrix Printers was FUN!!! >I remember drooling over Don Lancaster's articles that >married an Apple Laserwriter Controller Board to an HP >LaserJet. I ALWAYS wanted one of those. Never did it. >Now, I have SEVERAL LaserJet IIIP printers, the Adobe >Postscript Cartridge AND the Pacific Page Cartridge. >Neither of which seem to work well with Windows XP or >MacOS X. >Oh well... >BTW... Anyone got an AST SixPak Plus they are willing >to part with? I built an XT for old times sake, but it >only has 256k. >I have to find one of those controller cards that will >support a 1.44mb FDD also... Maybe at the Trenton >Computer Festival next spring... >Al >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From john.vc at btinternet.com Tue Dec 13 15:58:17 2005 From: john.vc at btinternet.com (John S) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:58:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [UK - East Midlands / East Anglia] Molecular Computer Rescue Message-ID: <20051213215817.19392.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I would like to find a good home for a Molecular M200 multicomputer. This is a multiuser system from the late 70s early 80s, and I understand it was based on Z80 cards dedicated to each user, sharing via a bus a hard drive and floppy drive for data and program storage. It is roughly 70cm tall, 30cm wide and 60cm deep and weighs about 60kg. This relic doesn't work, and it is likely that the hard drive has failed. If you are within the area north of the M25, East of the M1 and south of Peterborough (preferably Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Essex or Suffolk) and can give this box some TLC please e-mail me. Regards, John From jclang at notms.net Tue Dec 13 16:14:52 2005 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:14:52 -0500 Subject: Copyright -- was PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <439E4B12.7000009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05121317145200.28960@bell> On Tuesday 13 December 2005 00:24, you wrote: > On 12/12/05, woodelf wrote: > > While I have taken a few software packages from work to home to work at > > home, like > > DOS and some programimg software that never made it back later to work, > > I for the most > > part want to buy the software providing it reasonable. The same goes for > > music , I don't mind > > One question. I often can find old abandoned PC's. Most of them are > with software. Am I authorized to use the software I found? One step > further, could I copy them to my own PC and use them? Examples are MKS > tool kit, MS C 6.0, several versions of DOS, Qedit, PC tools. I admit > that I am not bothered by this issue. I am just curious about the > 'main stream' opinion. > > vax, 9000 Using the software on the system it was originally installed on. No question in my mind. Since you didn't copy anything how could you possibly violate the copyright. You may be violating the EULA,but you're not actually a party to that agreement. The original owner would hold that legal liability. (they are usually required to destroy all copies) If you copy to another system, well there's that nasty "copy" word... Not permitted, but often done. If you move it to another system, we go from black and white to murky grey. I also am not bothered by this issue. joe lang From jclang at notms.net Tue Dec 13 16:36:10 2005 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:36:10 -0500 Subject: PC-DOS 3.3 In-Reply-To: <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> References: <000601c5fe79$81e6ed60$4dd0adcb@BERTASUS> <200512121520520330.19BD9E05@10.0.0.252> <439E0A1A.5080709@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <05121317361001.28960@bell> On Monday 12 December 2005 18:39, you wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > Most of the legal battles with software isn't copyright, it's intellectual > propery rights -- two different things. > I disagree. There is no such thing (in the legal world) as intellectual property. There is copyright, there is patent and there is trade secret. Intellectual property is an attempt to apply rights to ideas that have no support of law. And this would appear to be getting pretty far off topic. Sorry you pushed my IP rant button. joe lang From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Dec 13 16:45:31 2005 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 16:45:31 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 chips? Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10D44992@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hey everyone, Are any of you interested in a group purchase of MCM68766 EPROM chips? These are used in M8189s and possibly in some other DEC equipment. I'm looking to upgrade my M8189 to a -BJ with these chips. Unfortunately the places that sell them are asking for a $150-200 minimum order. If you're interested, let me know. Julian From jdavis at soupwizard.com Tue Dec 13 17:09:57 2005 From: jdavis at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:09:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fujitsu SMD drive In-Reply-To: <20051213225908.40312.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051213225908.40312.qmail@web31406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13603.207.71.246.177.1134515397.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com> Actually, I'm not sure if the heads were locked when it was last powered down, they were locked when I received it though. I did find the service manual for the drive last night though! I'll scan it in and make a pdf, and send to you. (Unless one exists already). Jeff On Tue, December 13, 2005 2:59 pm, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Hi > > Recently received a Fujitsu SMD drive (85M) which > seems > to be in great shape. Fortunately the heads were > locked > when the drive was last powered down. > > I have the Xylogics card and cables and also various > power cables. > > I noticed however that the drive does have 4 mounting > points with rubber bushes. Does anyone have any > experience > in installing these drives, and what the mechanical > requirements are? Were there special cases to contain > the drives for example? > > Thanks > > Ian. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From john at jducommun.com Tue Dec 13 18:24:22 2005 From: john at jducommun.com (John Ducommun) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:24:22 -0600 Subject: Kenbak-1 on Ebay Message-ID: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> I have in my possesion a Kenbak1 in good condition. Powers on, light up. Satnding offer is 8000. Would you happen to know of anyone interested in giving more for this item? Thank You John Ducommun From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Dec 14 04:16:54 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:16:54 +0000 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <439FF116.3060300@gifford.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: >> I met a problem in Watcom C 11.0. I uses wcl which makes 8086 code. >> The code is running on a 386. I got wired result with >> printf("%x %x %x ",inportb(H_ADDR2), inportb(H_ADDR1), inportb(H_ADDR0)); >> >> but the following code worked as expected, >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR2)); >> printf("%x ",inportb(H_ADDR1)); >> printf("%x ", inportb(H_ADDR0)); The order of evaluation of arguments to functions is undefined in C. A compiler may evaluate left-to-right, or right-to-left or in some other sequence, you just can't control it. The second example forces the compiled code to evaluate the 'inportb' expressions in sequence. Could the order of the reads from the port make a difference? > Would 'volatile' help in this case? No, I don't think so. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 14 18:02:06 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:02:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <003a01c60066$f53e68d0$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <20051215000206.36521.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> any clue who actually made 8" controllers for PC's? One of my APC's has a controller board and external 5.25" drives made by Butler Flats Associates. Not sure what capacity the 8" drives have (haven't played with them much yet), but I believe the resident controller used a 765 chip. The Butler Flats boards used some Western Digital chip. Funny. --- Barry Watzman wrote: > ...And there were 8" controllers for > early PCs. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 14 18:16:02 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:16:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRF008VD0Q1FHE0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051215001602.88012.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > I > also have a two > edition article describing what it would take to put > MSDOS (V3.3!) > on a NON-PC 8088 system. 3.2 or .3 was available for the NEC APC III and the Rainbow (I think). I'm not absolutely sure the NEC version was APC III specific, though probably. The APC III had a compatibility board called the SLE (Software Library Expander). The thing I saw on ebay could have been vanilla ms-dos but I kind of doubt it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 06:05:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:05:09 -0500 Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned Message-ID: <0IRJ006QSG8F6PZ5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: M8189 boot rom need burned > From: "Wolfe, Julian " > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 18:09:00 -0600 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hello! > >I was wondering if someone here could burn me copies of the latest >(KDF11-BP?) roms for the M8189. They include the ability to boot from >MSCP and TK50, and I could really use this ability on my 11/23+ > >Currently my system has the original roms on 2716s (the part on the >chips is NM2716Q), and it's a real pain entering in the boot strap every >time. > >Can anyone help me out? > >Thanks >Julian We've already seen this poat and the traffic resulting. The M8189 used an odd motorola 8K part for MSCP boot not 2716. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 06:11:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:11:53 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph Message-ID: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: re: Good haul of old pc stuph > From: Chris M > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:50:26 -0800 (PST) > To: talk > >There were a few XT IDE controllers back in the day. >The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the >sIDE/16 or something. People who have used them claim >they work well. Either this one was blown to begin >with or the drive was at fault. It's mostly discrete >logic, the exception being a GAL or PAL as I recall. >There wasn't any firmware on it from what I remember. >What did I do with the thing? XT IDE adaptors are not uncommon and fairly simple devices. I have one or two of them and could make one. They do work well enough. The that drives usually connected to them have usually died by age. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 15 02:33:30 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:33:30 +0000 Subject: Cromemco SCC ROMs availble Message-ID: <20051215124005.EFFD3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> I've just received images of the Cromemco SCC ROMs (Z80 Monitor and 3K BASIC) which I know a number of people have been looking for for some time. I've already got them posted to my local copy of my site, and will move this to the live site sometime this morning. Should be available by noon (EST). Site URL is in my sig below, click on the "S-100" heading near the top, which will take you to my S-100 cards page. Scroll down to the Cromemco section and find the SCC entry. By noon there should be a "[ROM IMAGES]" link there. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 06:42:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:42:00 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Chris M > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:02:06 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >any clue who actually made 8" controllers for PC's? > One of my APC's has a controller board and external >5.25" drives made by Butler Flats Associates. Not sure >what capacity the 8" drives have (haven't played with >them much yet), but I believe the resident controller >used a 765 chip. The Butler Flats boards used some >Western Digital chip. Funny. > >--- Barry Watzman wrote: > >> ...And there were 8" controllers for >> early PCs. Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was used it's how it was used. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 06:47:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 07:47:00 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRJ00EGGI656PG4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Chris M > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 16:16:02 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > > >--- Allison wrote: > >> I >> also have a two >> edition article describing what it would take to put >> MSDOS (V3.3!) >> on a NON-PC 8088 system. > > 3.2 or .3 was available for the NEC APC III and the >Rainbow (I think). I'm not absolutely sure the NEC >version was APC III specific, though probably. The APC >III had a compatibility board called the SLE (Software >Library Expander). The thing I saw on ebay could have >been vanilla ms-dos but I kind of doubt it. Basically MY first comment was if you've the time any format is possible. I know for a fact and have seen MSDOS 2.11 running on S100 crates with mixed drives (both 5.25 and 8") using nothing but serial lines (no monitors). Used to be a time where you could buy the programmers kit and customize MSDOS just like CP/M-80. Then MS decided they didn't want that. Allison From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 07:25:34 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:25:34 -0500 Subject: Sun 386i available In-Reply-To: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> References: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Dan Lanciani wrote: > (Is that a classic yet? :) > > Located in Gloucester, MA. The monitor probably makes shipping impractical. I think it is a classic. I'd love to have one if it is in OH... vax, 9000 > > Dan Lanciani > ddl at danlan.*com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 07:33:31 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:33:31 -0500 Subject: Data seps for FDC Message-ID: <0IRJ0034YKBOQC95@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Anyone that needs info on how to build a data sep for the 765 for any data rate let me know direct. I have scanned relevent parts of two NEC Apnotes with the info needed. I do not have a web site where I can post them. They are fairly large .JPG. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 07:46:41 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:46:41 -0500 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <43A173C1.1080705@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone make a PCI Bus ESDI disk controller? >> >> Doesn't have to be 64-bit, 66MHz or PCI-X...:-) >> >> Ken > > > I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI came > out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind of think > that MCA would be your best bet. There are indeed ISA controllers out there. It might be a good idea to look for a PCI->ISA bridge box and an ISA card. Peace... Sridhar From fryers at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 07:56:47 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:56:47 +0000 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: <43A173C1.1080705@gmail.com> References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> <43A173C1.1080705@gmail.com> Message-ID: All, On 12/15/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Does anyone make a PCI Bus ESDI disk controller? > >> > >> Doesn't have to be 64-bit, 66MHz or PCI-X...:-) > > > > I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI came > > out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind of think > > that MCA would be your best bet. > > There are indeed ISA controllers out there. > > It might be a good idea to look for a PCI->ISA bridge box and an ISA card. Western Digital manufactured a 16 bit ISA ESDI controller. It was used in the Apollo Domain 3K, 4K and 5K nodes as well, but with ROMs for motorola 68K based systems. If my memory is correct, the ROM for x86 systems had the disk formatting utility at the usual place, C800, offset 5. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 15 07:57:22 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:57:22 GMT Subject: Cromemco MCB-216 3K BASIC amd Monitor ROMs In-Reply-To: "Pete Turnbull" "Cromemco MCB-216 3K BASIC amd Monitor ROMs" (Dec 14, 0:23) References: <10512140023.ZM5694@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <10512151357.ZM9727@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 14 2005, 0:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Craig has promised me a copy of the EPROM image files, possibly at the > weekend, and I'll put them on my website somewhere, possibly along with > the docs. He gave his consent to tell the list, and also said that > listmembers can email him directly: "craigl" mindwrap DOT com> I've put the two ROM images on my website as Intel HEX files, along with README.pdf which Craig wrote. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/MCB216R0.HEX http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/MCB216R1.HEX http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/README.pdf http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/Cromemco/read.me just has a few lines of notes about the origin and where to find Cromemco docum,ents. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 15 08:37:30 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:37:30 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> Hmmmm XT based IDE controllers??? Interesting, I only recall using the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. What is the manufacturer name on the adapters? Curt Allison wrote: >>Subject: re: Good haul of old pc stuph >> From: Chris M >> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:50:26 -0800 (PST) >> To: talk >> >>There were a few XT IDE controllers back in the day. >>The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the >>sIDE/16 or something. People who have used them claim >>they work well. Either this one was blown to begin >>with or the drive was at fault. It's mostly discrete >>logic, the exception being a GAL or PAL as I recall. >>There wasn't any firmware on it from what I remember. >>What did I do with the thing? >> >> > >XT IDE adaptors are not uncommon and fairly simple devices. >I have one or two of them and could make one. They do work >well enough. The that drives usually connected to them >have usually died by age. > >Allison > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/200 - Release Date: 12/14/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 08:52:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:52:05 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph Message-ID: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:37:30 -0500 > To: General at smtp1.suscom.net, "Discussion at smtp1.suscom.net":On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > >Hmmmm XT based IDE controllers??? Interesting, I only recall using >the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. > >What is the manufacturer name on the adapters? Cut from the posting you enclosed.. >>>The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the >>>sIDE/16 or something. Mine also says that. I also had a PS2/30 which was an XT in reality and could install a connor 420mb IDE. All it took was a 8bit/16bit trnaslation usinga pair of latches and some buffers. the only part of IDE thats actually 16bits wide is data transfers, the registers are bytes. The MFM controllers of the time had the same register layout. The WD1003 was likely the best known ISA16 (WD1002 was the ISA8 version) controller for MFM and it's just like talking to an IDE drive. To prove the point once I took a spare WD1003 jammed a few address bits and wired a IDE male connecotr to the needed pins and hooked the controller, and a 31mb drive to the IDE port of a 486board and then set the CHS in the bios and tada, it works. It's possible as that board was the prototype for the IDE drives on board logic and in itself was a standard. Since then IDE (ATAPI) has evolved some and there are a few twists added. Allison > > >Curt > > > >Allison wrote: > >>>Subject: re: Good haul of old pc stuph >>> From: Chris M >>> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:50:26 -0800 (PST) >>> To: talk >>> >>>There were a few XT IDE controllers back in the day. >>>The one I still have is made by Acculogic, called the >>>sIDE/16 or something. People who have used them claim >>>they work well. Either this one was blown to begin >>>with or the drive was at fault. It's mostly discrete >>>logic, the exception being a GAL or PAL as I recall. >>>There wasn't any firmware on it from what I remember. >>>What did I do with the thing? >>> >>> >> >>XT IDE adaptors are not uncommon and fairly simple devices. >>I have one or two of them and could make one. They do work >>well enough. The that drives usually connected to them >>have usually died by age. >> >>Allison >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/200 - Release Date: 12/14/2005 From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Dec 15 09:18:40 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:18:40 -0600 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 Message-ID: WordPerfect used a separate program called Convert.exe to translate other formats. The version with WP 5.1 can translate to WP from: Revisable-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Final-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Navy DIF WordStar 3.3 Multimate Advantage II Seven-bit Transfer WordPerfect 4.2 Mail Merge to WP Secondary Merge Word 4.0 DisplayWrite It can also translate from WP to: Revisable-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Final-Form-Text (IBM DCA) Navy DIF WordStar 3.3 Multimate Advantage II Seven-bit Transfer ASCII text WP Secondary merge to Spreadsheet DIF Bob Message: 13 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 11:42:43 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 To: General at smtp3.suscom.net, "Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <43A04B83.6000405 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I was told that Wordperfect can import and read Dec Word-11 and WPS All in One files, is this true???? Curt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 09:35:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:35:23 +0000 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hmmmm XT based IDE controllers??? Interesting, I only recall using > the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. Commodore was hugely into XT-IDE at one point - look inside some of the Colt models (their line of Intel boxes), or the Amiga A590 disk sidecar or the A2091 SCSI controller... the 40-pin connector is _XT IDE_. I've also seen XT-IDE drives on some of the later-model 8-bit HardCards. > What is the manufacturer name on the adapters? I don't know about adapter manufacturers for certain, but since Western Digital (as well as Seagate) made the drives, I'd expect to see a WD XT IDE controller at some point. -ethan From technobug at comcast.net Thu Dec 15 09:53:48 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:53:48 -0700 Subject: HP 98628A/100 Data Comm Interface In-Reply-To: <200512151328.jBFDSpr5059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512151328.jBFDSpr5059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Available for postage... CRC From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 15 10:21:07 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:21:07 -0800 Subject: Turbo C++ 3.0 bugs In-Reply-To: <43A01425.5000805@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <439F9ADC.4030601@brutman.com> <439FBEF5.6090804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43A01425.5000805@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On 12/14/05, Holger Veit wrote: > Thus, it is technically undefined what is > printed for instance for printf("%d %d %d", i++,i--,i -= 3); > > The compiler has all rights to produce code that yields different > results for both code fragments. > It's not only undefined what this code prints, it is undefined as to whether the code prints anything. The compiler is free to start a game of tetris when it encounters the above code. This is definitely one of the nasal demon cases. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 11:32:54 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:32:54 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512150932540679.27F219BC@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 7:42 AM Allison wrote: >Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was >used it's how it was used. Whoa. Sorry, I couldn't let this one go by unanswered. 8" drives use a 500K data clock rate, not 250K like the DS2D 720K 3.5". A controller that supports 1.44M DSHD 3.5" should do just fine on 8". While there were early 8" drives that used a lower clock rate, they were pretty much gone by the time of the dawn of the PC. FM support with a modern controller is a somewhat different kettle of fish. The nearest AT medium to the 8" drive would be the 5.25" high-density diskette, which also spins at the same rate--360 RPM. That was the beauty of the NEC APC line--from 8" right down to 3.5", the data format didn't vary one iota. The NEC 9801 floppies still record 1.3MB on a 3.5" drive spinning at 360 RPM. But the PC-XT 8" drive controllers were a special beast, honest. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 11:43:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:43:05 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512150943050133.27FB6A4C@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 9:52 AM Allison wrote: >All it took was a 8bit/16bit trnaslation usinga pair of latches >and some buffers. the only part of IDE thats actually 16bits >wide is data transfers, the registers are bytes. The MFM >controllers of the time had the same register layout. The >WD1003 was likely the best known ISA16 (WD1002 was the ISA8 >version) controller for MFM and it's just like talking to >an IDE drive. Quite a number of the early IDE drives would also support 8 bit data transfers if IOCS16- wasn't pulled low. Somewhere on the web, there's a site from someone who's compiled a list of these. Many early sound cards included an extra IDE port for the purpose of hooking up a CD drive. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 11:46:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:46:09 -0800 Subject: WordPerfect for DOS 5.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512150946090580.27FE3AC9@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 9:18 AM Robert Feldman wrote: >WordPerfect used a separate program called Convert.exe to translate other >formats. The version with WP 5.1 can translate to WP from... Microsoft used to offer (on request) a bunch of filters for Word (2 and 6, I think) that would handle a bunch of alien formats, including Wordstar 2000. It's one of the reasons that an old copy of Word 2.0 is still in my kit of data conversion tools. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 11:54:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:54:41 -0800 Subject: Data seps for FDC In-Reply-To: <0IRJ0034YKBOQC95@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ0034YKBOQC95@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512150954410812.28060BAC@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 8:33 AM Allison wrote: >Anyone that needs info on how to build a data sep for the 765 for any >data rate let me know direct. I have scanned relevent parts of two NEC >Apnotes with the info needed. I do not have a web site where I can >post them. They are fairly large .JPG. Are WD9216's that hard to come by? 8 pins, no waiting. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 12:18:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:18:04 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:32:54 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 7:42 AM Allison wrote: > >>Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >>8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was >>used it's how it was used. > >Whoa. Sorry, I couldn't let this one go by unanswered. > >8" drives use a 500K data clock rate, not 250K like the DS2D 720K 3.5". A >controller that supports 1.44M DSHD 3.5" should do just fine on 8". While >there were early 8" drives that used a lower clock rate, they were pretty >much gone by the time of the dawn of the PC. FM support with a modern >controller is a somewhat different kettle of fish. The nearest AT medium >to the 8" drive would be the 5.25" high-density diskette, which also spins >at the same rate--360 RPM. ;) your assumption is double density. 8" SSSD is not that fast. I never said formats were the same or even dive interface only that the data rates fly. 765A write clock rate by drive and density, bit rate is clock/2. Size density format writeclock ----------------------------------- 8" DD MFM 1000khz 8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) 5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) 5.25 SD FM 250khz 3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) 3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) 3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) None of this has anything to do with rotation rate of the media. Actual data storage capability is format dependent. One example that was known the to CP/M world was 5.25" 80track (FD55F) two sided at either 720k or ~780k I was sometimes called QD as it was really the same as the 360k but twice the tracks (48 tpi vs 96). So happens that the 3.5" drive can be plugged in and used exactly as if it were a FD55F for the same 720k as I do it all the time from a CP/M system to DOS and the CPM80 side has a utility that read/writes DOS FAT files. I'd have used 1.44 but the WD1770 literally cannot run at the required rate (not rated to either!). I'll let you all in on a dirty trick. The 765(A) outputs a signal on pin26 called FM, that is used to select data rates /2 ALWAYS. If you lift the pin the data rates for FM mode are now twice as fast and suitable for many other uses like 8" media. For the integrated flavors of 765 the same effect can be had by twiddling bits in the drive control register. If all else fails, you can double the the 8 or 16 mhz clock source used to 16/32 as needed. I have taked the 9.6mhz out and used higher on one board 16mhz so that switching to AT 5.25HD got me 8"DD instead without futzing with drivespeed (rotation rate) that means nothing to most 3.5, 5.25 (including FD55GFR with the jumper pulled) and 8" drive. >That was the beauty of the NEC APC line--from 8" right down to 3.5", the >data format didn't vary one iota. The NEC 9801 floppies still record 1.3MB >on a 3.5" drive spinning at 360 RPM. > >But the PC-XT 8" drive controllers were a special beast, honest. Not really. I can take the stock IBM XT long board and with one change make it do DSDD 8" (other than cable adaptor). Common parts cost 'bout $1, acutally cheaper now than 20 years ago then it would have been 1.89. Replace the 8mhz clock source with 16mhz. Thats how it's done. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 15 12:19:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:19:13 +0000 Subject: [UK - East Midlands / East Anglia] Molecular Computer Rescue In-Reply-To: <20051213215817.19392.qmail@web86705.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, I think Bletchley Park would be interested in that machine, particularly if it's British. There's at least 2 of us in Cambs that can come and collect. Google turns up too many scientific results so can you give us a bit more info please? If it's multiuser I'm assuming it's running a form of unix? On 13/12/05 21:58, "John S" wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to find a good home for a Molecular M200 multicomputer. This is > a multiuser system from the late 70s early 80s, and I understand it was based > on Z80 cards dedicated to each user, sharing via a bus a hard drive and > floppy drive for data and program storage. It is roughly 70cm tall, 30cm wide > and 60cm deep and weighs about 60kg. This relic doesn't work, and it is > likely that the hard drive has failed. > > If you are within the area north of the M25, East of the M1 and south of > Peterborough (preferably Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Essex > or Suffolk) and can give this box some TLC please e-mail me. > > Regards, > John > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 12:20:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:20:20 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph Message-ID: <0IRJ00MK0XLMCVJ6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:43:05 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 9:52 AM Allison wrote: > >>All it took was a 8bit/16bit trnaslation usinga pair of latches >>and some buffers. the only part of IDE thats actually 16bits >>wide is data transfers, the registers are bytes. The MFM >>controllers of the time had the same register layout. The >>WD1003 was likely the best known ISA16 (WD1002 was the ISA8 >>version) controller for MFM and it's just like talking to >>an IDE drive. > >Quite a number of the early IDE drives would also support 8 bit data >transfers if IOCS16- wasn't pulled low. Somewhere on the web, there's a >site from someone who's compiled a list of these. Many early sound cards >included an extra IDE port for the purpose of hooking up a CD drive. List them, please. I've found only two flavors of 3.5" IDE from WD and thats it. Best I've seen is it was spec'd in but almost never implmented. I have a large (n>20) selection of 500mb and smaller down to 20mb IDE drives and it's amazing so few that support 8bit data. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 12:23:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:23:00 -0500 Subject: Data seps for FDC Message-ID: <0IRJ00MPXXQ27B46@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Data seps for FDC > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 09:54:41 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 8:33 AM Allison wrote: > >>Anyone that needs info on how to build a data sep for the 765 for any >>data rate let me know direct. I have scanned relevent parts of two NEC >>Apnotes with the info needed. I do not have a web site where I can >>post them. They are fairly large .JPG. > >Are WD9216's that hard to come by? 8 pins, no waiting. > >Cheers, >Chuck Generally yes. there is some NOS around. For those that can't find it or don't want it there are many ways arount it. Me I ahve a few 9229s that do all clock generation and a few custom gate arrays that do 9229 plus all the decode and drive interface for 765. So it's not an issue for me. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 12:27:33 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:27:33 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <43A0FEDA.8020703@oldskool.org> References: <200512141950480688.25016E4E@10.0.0.252> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <0IRI00LJQFE2LMM1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051214183732.04365710@mail.30below.com> <43A0B4F3.4020105@oldskool.org> <200512141950480688.25016E4E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215131724.03a34710@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 12/14/2005 at 6:12 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>>I was (subconsciously) never sure if my keystrokes >>>were registering or not with "mushy" keyboards. >>I think it's not the "mushiness", but a question of key travel. I despise >>notebook keyboards because of their short travel. I've got a couple of old > >IBM Thinkpads have better travel than others, I've found. Not better than my Tandy 200! >Toshibas have some of the worst. Just my opinion. Anything sub-portable. My fujitsu P2120's keyboard, whilst not as sucky as I thought it would be for it's size, it's not perzactly a "joy" to type on. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 12:40:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:40:44 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215133627.05581d38@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: [snippety] >Size density format writeclock >----------------------------------- >8" DD MFM 1000khz >8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) > >5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) >5.25 SD FM 250khz > >3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) >3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) >3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) 3.5" FM was used for microcomputers - the Tandy Portable Disk Drive (OEMmed by Brother, IIRC) was 40 tracks, 2SPT FM w/100K storage. Serial port driven, and worked with the Tandy Model 100/102/200 laptops. In my Service manual for the critter, it did mention the density, but I don't have that handy. DD disks worked just fine on it (read: data life at least into the 10 year range), but HD didn't work so well, IIRC. The TPDD2 was also FM, but used an 80 track drive (set into 2 banks for compatibility with the TPDD1) for 200K storage. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 12:52:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:52:57 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRJ000TJZ40UAW7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:40:44 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: >[snippety] > >>Size density format writeclock >>----------------------------------- >>8" DD MFM 1000khz >>8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) >> >>5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) >>5.25 SD FM 250khz >> >>3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) >>3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) >>3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) > >3.5" FM was used for microcomputers - the Tandy Portable Disk Drive (OEMmed >by Brother, IIRC) was 40 tracks, 2SPT FM w/100K storage. Serial port >driven, and worked with the Tandy Model 100/102/200 laptops. In my Service >manual for the critter, it did mention the density, but I don't have that >handy. DD disks worked just fine on it (read: data life at least into the >10 year range), but HD didn't work so well, IIRC. > >The TPDD2 was also FM, but used an 80 track drive (set into 2 banks for >compatibility with the TPDD1) for 200K storage. > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger ;) it's obsolete. I know there were at least 20 formats not mentioned that were "out of the mainstream" so more exceptions are known. However looking at the clock rates mentioned I'd guess it can be done. ;) Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 13:08:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:08:25 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <0IRJ00MK0XLMCVJ6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ00MK0XLMCVJ6@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512151108250277.28498AA8@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 1:20 PM Allison wrote: >List them, please. I've found only two flavors of 3.5" IDE from WD and >thats it. Best I've seen is it was spec'd in but almost never implmented. 8 Bit was part of ATA-1 and ATA-2 and dropped from ATA-3 (see http://www.t10.org/ftp/t10/document.95/95-310r0.pdf). AFAIK, only the very old (and the XTA drives) such as the very early Prarietek (2.5"), Conner 3.5" and CDC 5.25" drives supported the 8 bit mode. But it was there for a time. I'll do some digging and see if I can turn up the list. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Thu Dec 15 13:08:47 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:08:47 -0700 Subject: HP 98628A/100 Data Comm Interface In-Reply-To: <200512151328.jBFDSpr5059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512151328.jBFDSpr5059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <082427AF-5245-43C8-B9C5-917C145FC7F6@comcast.net> 'Tis in the mail... > Available for postage... > > CRC From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 13:19:53 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:19:53 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ000TJZ40UAW7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215141223.04678198@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: >From: Roger Merchberger > >Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > >[snippety] > > > >>Size density format writeclock > >>----------------------------------- > >>8" DD MFM 1000khz > >>8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) > >> > >>5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) > >>5.25 SD FM 250khz > >> > >>3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) > >>3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) > >>3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) > > > >3.5" FM was used for microcomputers - the Tandy Portable Disk Drive (OEMmed > >by Brother, IIRC) was 40 tracks, 2SPT FM w/100K storage. Serial port > >driven, and worked with the Tandy Model 100/102/200 laptops. In my Service > >manual for the critter, it did mention the density, but I don't have that > >handy. DD disks worked just fine on it (read: data life at least into the > >10 year range), but HD didn't work so well, IIRC. > > > >The TPDD2 was also FM, but used an 80 track drive (set into 2 banks for > >compatibility with the TPDD1) for 200K storage. > >;) it's obsolete. And 8" drives aren't obsolete??? :-O By today's definition, they're *all* obsolete... ;-) I was responding to the "not used" part - I'd read that as "no major manufacturer actually used that format." I obviously interpreted that incorrectly, but 3.5" FM drives are quite a bit easier to find than 2" MFM drives... (Of which I have 2 as well, and 4 or 5 boxes of media, 2 still shrink-wrapped. :-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 13:27:48 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:27:48 -0500 Subject: Scanned Data Separator Appnotes Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142408.03a344b8@mail.30below.com> Allison sent me the scans of the appnotes for the data separator / floppy interface circuits, and I have put them on the web for anyone who wants access to them. http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/classics/datasep/ 4 files, monochrome JPG, enter at your own risk, and I'm not to be held responsible if your dog's hair turns blue because of it. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 13:30:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:30:29 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512151130290935.285DC10D@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 1:18 PM Allison wrote: >;) your assumption is double density. 8" SSSD is not that fast. >I never said formats were the same or even dive interface only that >the data rates fly. Nope. I'm just going by the 765 data sheet: "Pin 19 - CLK - Single-phase 8 MHz (or 4 MHz for mini-floppies) squarewave clock" IOW, if you supported 3.5 DD (or SD) floppies, you weren't going to be able to do an A1 8" floppy without changing the clock. Same thing obtains for the WD 179x - "Pin 24 - CLOCK - This input requires a free-running 50% duty cycle square wave clock for internal timing reference. 2 MHz +/- 1% for 8" drives, 1 MHz +/- 1% for mini-floppies." The 279x has a clock divider that's programmed by pin 17 (5/8). Look at the grandaddy of the 8" XT drive controllers, the CompatiCard I. It uses port 7F2H to change the 765 clock from 4 to 8 MHz for 8" support. MFM/FM doesn't enter into the equation--that's programmed into the read and write commands and the data separator. But an old XT-era 720K 3.5"/5.25" controller couldn't do this clock-switching trick unless it could also support 1.2/1.44 media. Cheers, Chuck > >765A write clock rate by drive and density, bit rate is clock/2. > >Size density format writeclock >----------------------------------- >8" DD MFM 1000khz >8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) > >5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) >5.25 SD FM 250khz > >3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) >3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) >3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) > >None of this has anything to do with rotation rate of the media. >Actual data storage capability is format dependent. > >One example that was known the to CP/M world was 5.25" 80track (FD55F) >two sided at either 720k or ~780k I was sometimes called QD as it >was really the same as the 360k but twice the tracks (48 tpi vs 96). >So happens that the 3.5" drive can be plugged in and used exactly >as if it were a FD55F for the same 720k as I do it all the time >from a CP/M system to DOS and the CPM80 side has a utility that >read/writes DOS FAT files. I'd have used 1.44 but the WD1770 literally >cannot run at the required rate (not rated to either!). > >I'll let you all in on a dirty trick. The 765(A) outputs a signal on >pin26 called FM, that is used to select data rates /2 ALWAYS. If you lift >the pin the data rates for FM mode are now twice as fast and suitable >for many other uses like 8" media. For the integrated flavors of 765 >the same effect can be had by twiddling bits in the drive control register. >If all else fails, you can double the the 8 or 16 mhz clock source >used to 16/32 as needed. I have taked the 9.6mhz out and used higher >on one board 16mhz so that switching to AT 5.25HD got me 8"DD instead >without futzing with drivespeed (rotation rate) that means nothing to >most 3.5, 5.25 (including FD55GFR with the jumper pulled) and 8" drive. > >>That was the beauty of the NEC APC line--from 8" right down to 3.5", the >>data format didn't vary one iota. The NEC 9801 floppies still record >1.3MB >>on a 3.5" drive spinning at 360 RPM. >> >>But the PC-XT 8" drive controllers were a special beast, honest. > >Not really. I can take the stock IBM XT long board and with one change >make it do DSDD 8" (other than cable adaptor). Common parts cost 'bout >$1, acutally cheaper now than 20 years ago then it would have been 1.89. >Replace the 8mhz clock source with 16mhz. > >Thats how it's done. > >Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 15 13:55:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:55:39 -0700 Subject: Scanned Data Separator Appnotes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142408.03a344b8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142408.03a344b8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A1CA3B.5040008@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Allison sent me the scans of the appnotes for the data separator / > floppy interface circuits, and I have put them on the web for anyone > who wants access to them. > > http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/classics/datasep/ > Well I think one may have metastable problem with theTTL data seperators. You want a second flip/flop to buffer the edge detect flip/flop After that the dog's hair color will stay black unless you have a poodle, and all will be fine. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 14:21:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:21:05 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK00KIB36U2SS4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:30:29 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 1:18 PM Allison wrote: > >>;) your assumption is double density. 8" SSSD is not that fast. >>I never said formats were the same or even dive interface only that >>the data rates fly. > >Nope. I'm just going by the 765 data sheet: > >"Pin 19 - CLK - Single-phase 8 MHz (or 4 MHz for mini-floppies) squarewave >clock" > >IOW, if you supported 3.5 DD (or SD) floppies, you weren't going to be >able to do an A1 8" floppy without changing the clock. ;) You know not the part you speak of. Question, what it that clock used for? Hint data rates are NOT tied to it. The internal timers (HLT, HST, SR) are. So if you need real fast or real slow step rates the chip clock is important. You have to read the apnotes and there was a users manaual at one time. there are many things that if you apply WD177x or 179x rules to will not make sense. Such as the use of TC. >Same thing obtains for the WD 179x - "Pin 24 - CLOCK - This input requires >a free-running 50% duty cycle square wave clock for internal timing >reference. 2 MHz +/- 1% for 8" drives, 1 MHz +/- 1% for mini-floppies." Not even close 765 is a wholly differnt animal. The Read operation needs RDW and the write must have WC. Both are independent of the chipclock. (note: the 37C65 and later parts integrate a lot of logic that was external to 765 but logically still are. so their behavour is rule driven.) >The 279x has a clock divider that's programmed by pin 17 (5/8). Again differnt animal and based on 179x. >Look at the grandaddy of the 8" XT drive controllers, the CompatiCard I. >It uses port 7F2H to change the 765 clock from 4 to 8 MHz for 8" support. >MFM/FM doesn't enter into the equation--that's programmed into the read and >write commands and the data separator. Nope. >But an old XT-era 720K 3.5"/5.25" controller couldn't do this >clock-switching trick unless it could also support 1.2/1.44 media. Nope not needed. The serial logic of the 765 is decoupled from the control and status logic. If you used 4mhz for chipclock and did 8" your fastest step rate would be half as fast as if you used 8mhz. Same you be true for Head load time and head unload time. Also when he chip is idle (not seen on PC hardware) it scans all four drives for "Ready and Disk Change", the scan rate for that would also be off by /2. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 14:22:48 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:22:48 -0500 Subject: Scanned Data Separator Appnotes Message-ID: <0IRK003GH39PQOK1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Scanned Data Separator Appnotes > From: woodelf > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:55:39 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Allison sent me the scans of the appnotes for the data separator / >> floppy interface circuits, and I have put them on the web for anyone >> who wants access to them. >> >> http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/classics/datasep/ >> >Well I think one may have metastable problem with theTTL data seperators. >You want a second flip/flop to buffer the edge detect flip/flop After >that the >dog's hair color will stay black unless you have a poodle, and all will >be fine. It was test and works well enough to find it self used on many PCs. Was it the best, no, only ok. Though it was 100x better than the 1771 internal data sep. Allison From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 15 14:40:46 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:40:46 -0500 Subject: DEC application - CEO Files... In-Reply-To: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A1D4CE.7060406@atarimuseum.com> I've got an application and associated data in directories called CEO-Files. Looks like some kind of Database under VMS. Anyone familiar with this app??? Curt > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/200 - Release Date: 12/14/2005 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 14:55:38 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:55:38 +0000 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20051213213633.C4C12580C3@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <575131af0512151255h5d45b646k516808844d902cd7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Bryan Pope wrote: > Speaking of GUIs for older IBMs I also remember one called GEM. Does > anyone know who developed it? GEM is still alive and in somewhat-active development. The PC version has been released under GPL by Lineo, the thin-client division of the old, not-evil Caldera; work is still in progress on it upgrading it to add Atari ST GEM features: http://www.deltasoft.com/ There is also a multitasking version called GEM-XM available there. The ST version was never open-sourced but now all parts of it - the ST ROM, which ran a CP/M-68k derivative called TOS, the AES, VDI and the desktop, have all be reverse-engineered and rewritten, in several versions. There are GPL versions of all of these. There is also a Unix-like multitasking layer called MINT. There's a GPL distribution of the whole OS under the name AFROS - the Atari FRee Operating System. It's available as part of Aranym, a fast, JIT-compiling emulated environment for running ST apps on Windows, Linux and OS X. http://aranym.sourceforge.net/ This is a complete free state-of-the-art environment for emulating enough of an Atari machine on modern hardware to run GEM apps and software. It's pretty impressive. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:11:06 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:11:06 +0000 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0512151311r40b69607r310bad4aaf655ddc@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/05, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project > OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource > for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as > a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) There are already several DOS clones out there, some free, some not. Why not go help out the folk working on FreeDOS or the DR-DOS Enhancement Project instead? http://www.drdosprojects.de/ DOS is still in use and useful, especially for people who cannot afford modern hardware. Failing that, other open-source projects that could do with help include: FreeGEM http://www.deltasoft.com FreeVMS http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html AROS http://www.aros.org/ Haiku http://haiku-os.org/learn.php Syllable http://www.syllable.org/ ... And many more! -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 15 15:12:05 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:12:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20051215130950.W50760@shell.lmi.net> > I really doubt it. Wasn't ESDI basically dead by the time that PCI > came out? For that matter, how many ISA controllers exist? I kind > of think that MCA would be your best bet. I have an ISA ESDI, with a 100M 3.5" drive. (not ready to part with it yet) Weren't the WD -7 boards also ESDI? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:16:10 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:16:10 +0000 Subject: GEM (was GEOWORKS) In-Reply-To: <43A02455.7020206@yahoo.co.uk> References: <8dd2d95c0512140530x330dacffm253a02f33b1b5632@mail.gmail.com> <43A02455.7020206@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0512151316sa5f5ed3u764052ac3f12960f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Obvious comment: picking a better background colour for the screenshot than > "puke green" might be a wise move :-) /De gustibus non est disputandam./ (There can be no argument about taste.) > And I admit to being curious as to what "new 3D interface" means. Or is that > just marketing speak for "we added shadow effects to the buttons"? Well, not really "marketing", 'cos it's all Free software, but yes. As well as the shaded widgets, though, there are other features from later versions of GEM being re-implemented, such as B?zier support, scalable font handling and things... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:21:48 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:21:48 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051212191304.04fc6598@mail.30below.com> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20051212191304.04fc6598@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <575131af0512151321t1d310275rf586987831ca841c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > And with what SCO is doing now, I'd have felt just as dirty giving them > money as M$, at this point. ;-) Before Linux, if you wanted a cheap xNix for the PC, there was Coherent. Pretty decent system, from everything I heard. The 386 version wasn't limited to small-model code, either, AFAICR. Don't think anyone ever accused the Mark Williams Company of being evil! -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:22:55 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:22:55 -0500 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: <575131af0512151311r40b69607r310bad4aaf655ddc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/05 4:11 PM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > On 12/14/05, Gary Sparkes wrote: >> I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project >> OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource >> for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as >> a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) > > There are already several DOS clones out there, some free, some not. > > Why not go help out the folk working on FreeDOS or the DR-DOS > Enhancement Project instead? > > http://www.drdosprojects.de/ > > DOS is still in use and useful, especially for people who cannot > afford modern hardware. > > Failing that, other open-source projects that could do with help include: > > FreeGEM > http://www.deltasoft.com > > FreeVMS > http://freevms.free.fr/indexGB.html > > AROS > http://www.aros.org/ > > Haiku > http://haiku-os.org/learn.php > > Syllable > http://www.syllable.org/ > > ... And many more! But, that's not the point! I'm doing this to play around and improve my coding skills by doing low level stuff I normally otherwise wouldn't do, just a fun project :) From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Dec 15 15:25:36 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:25:36 -0000 Subject: DEC application - CEO Files... In-Reply-To: <43A1D4CE.7060406@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <002b01c601be$1f246250$5b01a8c0@pc1> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I've got an application and associated data in directories called > CEO-Files. Looks like some kind of Database under VMS. Anyone > familiar with this app??? I would have guessed this was GQ Bob's personal correspondence :-) How about posting a directory listing, it might jog someones grey matter a little more (although probably not mine since I didn't go near too many databases). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 15:26:10 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:26:10 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <575131af0512151326w49c11188n558edfcf8f0f5ce@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One wonders what the OS landscape would have looked like had MS simply > bundled a 32-bit flat-mode DPMI server with MS-DOS when the 386 came out. > Would anyone really have preferred developing for the segmented 16-bit > model? It kinda nearly happened with DesqView and DesqView/X. 32-bit memory under DOS, solid multitasking with memory protection, virtual memory, and a standard X.11-based GUI. It just came along too late - after Windows 3.0, in other words. I'd love to know how the computing world would have turned out if DV/X had been a big hit. It would have bought the worlds of DOS and Unix much closer together. It might have been a fertile combination. Imagine if all the GNU stuff had got ported to DV/X, for example. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 15:29:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:29:46 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRK00KIB36U2SS4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRK00KIB36U2SS4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512151329460376.28CAF39F@10.0.0.252> n 12/15/2005 at 3:21 PM Allison wrote: >> >>Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:30:29 -0800 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >>On 12/15/2005 at 1:18 PM Allison wrote: >> >>>;) your assumption is double density. 8" SSSD is not that fast. >>>I never said formats were the same or even dive interface only that >>>the data rates fly. >> >>Nope. I'm just going by the 765 data sheet: >> >>"Pin 19 - CLK - Single-phase 8 MHz (or 4 MHz for mini-floppies) squarewave >>clock" >> >>IOW, if you supported 3.5 DD (or SD) floppies, you weren't going to be >>able to do an A1 8" floppy without changing the clock. > >;) You know not the part you speak of. Question, what it that clock used >for? Hint data rates are NOT tied to it. ...unless you count WRITING :) -- or is it your contention that FDC's not be capable of writing data?. AFAIK, neither NEC nor its licensees has changed the relationship between the write clock and the 4 or 8 MHz clock input. Could a 765 running off of a 4MHz clock, given the proper data separator read 8" A1 diskettes? Maybe, but there are some other things tied to the clock that might have an effect, such as the length of the VCO sync-up period. Could it write or format them? No way--it's just not built that way. >Not even close 765 is a wholly differnt animal. The Read operation needs >RDW and the write must have WC. Both are independent of the chipclock. Where be this WC pin on the 765 you speak of? I don't see it. Heck, I don't see it on the 179x, either. IMOHO, I note that it's the newer smaller drives, not the 8" drives that step faster, so, using your logic, it'd be the 8" drives, not the 5.25" that needed the slower clock. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 15:32:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:32:21 -0800 Subject: PCI ESDI Controller In-Reply-To: <20051215130950.W50760@shell.lmi.net> References: <43A10551.1020200@seefried.com> <20051215130950.W50760@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512151332210701.28CD525B@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 1:12 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Weren't the WD -7 boards also ESDI? Yup--they came in two versions even--an older 3/4 length model and a newer 1/2 length one. DTC also had them--and probably a host of other manufacturers. At one time, they were viewed as the high-priced spread of PC hard disks. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 15 15:43:43 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:43:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051215133042.S50760@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Allison wrote: > Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do > 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was > used it's how it was used. It's rare enough that Allison (or Tony) make a mistake, that it is a rare opportunity to be able to disagree with any confidence. Any PC controller that can do "standard" 360K, can do 720K 3.5". Only difference is whether the OS and/or BIOS are happy with the trivial differences. But unless we allow some "re-programming with solder and dead bugs", many of the 8 bit FDC boards are hardwired to MFM, yet have the data transfer rate that the 8" would want for FM. The original IBM FDC board for the 5150 could be modified for 8" (Flagstaff Engineering did so), but it's a lot of extra wires. On the other hand, most FDC boards that support 1.2M can do 8" DD. The ones that also support FM can usually handle 8" SD. 'course there are SOME that are designed so weird that they still can't. Boards for 5150 that support 8" include the popular Compaticard, Flagstaff Engineering, Maynard, Vista, J-Disk, MMF, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 15 15:58:18 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:58:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <575131af0512151255h5d45b646k516808844d902cd7@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Dec 15, 5 08:55:38 pm" Message-ID: <200512152158.NAA17728@floodgap.com> > This is a complete free state-of-the-art environment for emulating > enough of an Atari machine on modern hardware to run GEM apps and > software. It's pretty impressive. The underpinnings remind me a little of JET (Just Enough TOS) that allowed MiNT to run on Macintoshes. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 15 16:05:48 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:05:48 -0700 Subject: DOS Compatable OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A1E8BC.6090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Gary Sparkes wrote: >But, that's not the point! I'm doing this to play around and improve my >coding skills by doing low level stuff I normally otherwise wouldn't do, >just a fun project :) > > > Well good ... you can do all my codeing for my homebrew computer. It has a instruction set you have never seen before and may never want to see it again.* Well just remember a DOS project can take a long time.That is my next project once I get the hardware built and most homebrew DOS on the web seem to have been unix based. >. > > Ben alias woodelf *It has in fact a nice simple instruction set. The only gotya is ADC and SBC have to be done PDP 8 style ... shift the link into the AC for 0 or 1 and clear the link. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 16:21:36 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:21:36 -0800 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <575131af0512151326w49c11188n558edfcf8f0f5ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> <575131af0512151326w49c11188n558edfcf8f0f5ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512151421360870.28FA69DE@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 9:26 PM Liam Proven wrote: >I'd love to know how the computing world would have turned out if DV/X >had been a big hit. It would have bought the worlds of DOS and Unix >much closer together. It might have been a fertile combination. >Imagine if all the GNU stuff had got ported to DV/X, for example. When it comes to Microsoft, there are a lot of "What ifs". Note that even back in 1990, Gates thought that OS/2 should be marketed in separate 32- and 16-bit versions. From the "OS/2 Notebook" (Microsoft Press). It's a book worth owning, simply for the belly laughs in Section VI: "Developer: How will the 16-bit and 32-bit OS/2s be packaged? Gates: They will be sold as separate packages. But remember that 16-bit binaries wil run on OS/2 2.0 and see the benefits of paging and the larger address space." "Gates: I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time. As the successor to DOS, which has over 10,000,000 systems in use, it creates incredible opportunities for everyone involved with PCs." An application engineer friend over at Intel was furious that 386 mode systems and apps were so long in coming. He said something to the effect of "Look what we break our backs doing--giving you software guys a high-performance 32-bit architecture and you p*ss it all away by running 16-bit code on it". A bunch of folks (myself included) ponied up some serious cash to Microsoft to be included in the beta test program for the new OS/2. Lawsuits were threatened when MS decided to preview NT instead. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 16:24:45 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:24:45 +0000 Subject: GEOWORKS (was Re: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software) In-Reply-To: <200512152158.NAA17728@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0512151255h5d45b646k516808844d902cd7@mail.gmail.com> <200512152158.NAA17728@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0512151424i1f0a285dua349090d15662c83@mail.gmail.com> On 12/15/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > This is a complete free state-of-the-art environment for emulating > > enough of an Atari machine on modern hardware to run GEM apps and > > software. It's pretty impressive. > > The underpinnings remind me a little of JET (Just Enough TOS) that allowed > MiNT to run on Macintoshes. Not met that one, but it sounds along the same lines, yes. I'm not an old Atari person at all - I just researched this stuff 'cos I'm on the FreeGEM mailing list & was interested. Results are here: http://members.aol.com/liamproven/reference/tos_hist.htm Complete (AFAIK - corrections welcome) history of revisions and versions of Atari ST operating systems. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 17:01:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:01:30 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK00ECNAM66G87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:29:46 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >n 12/15/2005 at 3:21 PM Allison wrote: > >>> >>>Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives >>> From: "Chuck Guzis" >>> Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:30:29 -0800 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>>On 12/15/2005 at 1:18 PM Allison wrote: >>> >>>>;) your assumption is double density. 8" SSSD is not that fast. >>>>I never said formats were the same or even dive interface only that >>>>the data rates fly. >>> >>>Nope. I'm just going by the 765 data sheet: >>> >>>"Pin 19 - CLK - Single-phase 8 MHz (or 4 MHz for mini-floppies) >squarewave >>>clock" >>> >>>IOW, if you supported 3.5 DD (or SD) floppies, you weren't going to be >>>able to do an A1 8" floppy without changing the clock. >> >>;) You know not the part you speak of. Question, what it that clock used > >>for? Hint data rates are NOT tied to it. > >....unless you count WRITING :) -- or is it your contention that FDC's not >be capable of writing data?. AFAIK, neither NEC nor its licensees has >changed the relationship between the write clock and the 4 or 8 MHz clock >input. Save for wrtclk controls that pin21 not the clock on pin19 >>Could a 765 running off of a 4MHz clock, given the proper data separator >read 8" A1 diskettes? Maybe, but there are some other things tied to the >clock that might have an effect, such as the length of the VCO sync-up >period. Could it write or format them? No way--it's just not built that >way. It is built that way as the clock supplied on Pin21 is the write clock and the RDW pin22 is the read clock. I've done it, not by plan but by error. Ran well enough but when playing with step rates and heal load times the they were off by *2, oops! The format is controlled by counting the writes. The VCOsync is timed off of the pin19 clock most cases even at double the length it works as that was the difference between the 765 and the 765A. Not an issue for 8", sometimes a problem for dense formats on 5.25" (10sectors of 512bytes), big issue for 3.5" though there was the 7265 tuned for that (no index gap written on format). >>Not even close 765 is a wholly differnt animal. The Read operation needs >>RDW and the write must have WC. Both are independent of the chipclock. > >Where be this WC pin on the 765 you speak of? I don't see it. Heck, I >don't see it on the 179x, either. Look for PIN21, The current data sheet has WCK. Older ones have WC. The 179x write is clocked off of main clock with a divisor selected by fm or MFM so 179x pin24 not only drives the internal uengine its direct control of the write shift logic. there are some very distinct and fundemental differnce between the WD 177x, 179x and the 765. the most basic is that the 765 has both head select and unit select logic and also handles Ready and Fault. >IMOHO, I note that it's the newer smaller drives, not the 8" drives that >step faster, so, using your logic, it'd be the 8" drives, not the 5.25" >that needed the slower clock. Some do. Some don't. Depends on the era, as 765 is now 25 years old. A lot of drives have come and gone a few lasted a while. CDC 8" drives were pretty happy with 4mS step rates but buzzed like a banshee at 6mS. I have the distinct advantave of having supported the part in the field as "factory" for over two years and playing backup for the product engineer reponseable for the part for another two years while at NEC. Any question I didn't have answers to were likely propritory. So between having all the docs and a tube of them it's been the FDC of choice since 1980 for me. When I have the 6809 CUBIX system going that will make the 8th unique design using the part (765A) never minding having used the 9266, 37C65 and 37C665. Allison From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 17:08:19 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:08:19 -0500 Subject: Sun 386i available In-Reply-To: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> References: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Dan Lanciani wrote: > (Is that a classic yet? :) > > Located in Gloucester, MA. The monitor probably makes shipping impractical. Dan, It seems nobody is interested. If so, would you consider shipping it to OH? When you said it might not be practical, did you mean it was hard to pack, or the shipping charge was too high? I checked fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box with 60LB from Boston to OH only costs $18.66. (can't not be bigger, otherwise big box rate is applied to make it $76). I assume two boxes are needed, and the sum will be $40. Adding the packing material and fedex pick up fee, I assume $60 will cover it. How do you think? Let me know. Thank you. I will not compete if somebody close to you wants it. Have fun! vax, 9000 > > Dan Lanciani > ddl at danlan.*com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 17:10:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:10:44 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK00EBGB1K6K97@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:43:43 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Allison wrote: >> Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >> 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was >> used it's how it was used. > >It's rare enough that Allison (or Tony) make a mistake, >that it is a rare opportunity to be able to disagree with >any confidence. >Any PC controller that can do "standard" 360K, can do 720K 3.5". >Only difference is whether the OS and/or BIOS are happy with the >trivial differences. The software interface is a seperate issue. Very few media smaller than 8" used 26 sectors per track FM or MFM. >But unless we allow some "re-programming with solder and dead bugs", >many of the 8 bit FDC boards are hardwired to MFM, yet have the data >transfer rate that the 8" would want for FM. >The original IBM FDC board for the 5150 could be modified for 8" >(Flagstaff Engineering did so), but it's a lot of extra wires. The IDE8 FDC were not hard wired for MFM. Amen. The selection of FM/MFM is a bit in the command byte. It's bit 6. Write data Fm is 05h and write data MFM is 45h. Now what the logic connected to pin26 does with the signal is possibly unknown but the resulting output to the drive always follows the command byte. >On the other hand, most FDC boards that support 1.2M >can do 8" DD. The ones that also support FM can usually >handle 8" SD. 'course there are SOME that are designed so weird that >they still can't. > >Boards for 5150 that support 8" include the popular Compaticard, >Flagstaff Engineering, Maynard, Vista, J-Disk, MMF, etc. Yes there are a few that pin26 goes nowhere and the resulting FM data rate is then twice what you would expect. For some cases that is an advantage. ;) Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 15 17:18:15 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:18:15 -0500 Subject: Sun 386i available In-Reply-To: References: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <200512151818.15227.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 December 2005 18:08, 9000 VAX wrote: > fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box I'm assuming that was supposed to be private.. but I must say, that's one huge box! (Or did you mean inches ala " not feet ala '? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 15 17:19:57 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051215151455.G50760@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Allison wrote: > 765A write clock rate by drive and density, bit rate is clock/2. > Size density format writeclock > ----------------------------------- > 8" DD MFM 1000khz > 8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) > > 5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) > 5.25 SD FM 250khz > > 3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) > 3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) > 3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) one more entry to add to that table: 5.25 "HD" MFM 1000KHz (1.2M) (looks like 8", could be SAME CHS) > None of this has anything to do with rotation rate of the media. Very true. 8" and "1.2M" is 360RPM, all others are 300 RPM, with a few exceptions (early Sony 3.5 at 600 RPM, NEC, Weltec, etc.) > Actual data storage capability is format dependent. and the format choices open an even bigger can of worms > One example that was known the to CP/M world was 5.25" 80track (FD55F) > two sided at either 720k or ~780k I was sometimes called QD as it > was really the same as the 360k but twice the tracks (48 tpi vs 96). > So happens that the 3.5" drive can be plugged in and used exactly > as if it were a FD55F for the same 720k as I do it all the time > from a CP/M system to DOS and the CPM80 side has a utility that > read/writes DOS FAT files. I'd have used 1.44 but the WD1770 literally > cannot run at the required rate (not rated to either!). > > I'll let you all in on a dirty trick. The 765(A) outputs a signal on > pin26 called FM, that is used to select data rates /2 ALWAYS. If you lift > the pin the data rates for FM mode are now twice as fast and suitable > for many other uses like 8" media. For the integrated flavors of 765 > the same effect can be had by twiddling bits in the drive control register. > If all else fails, you can double the the 8 or 16 mhz clock source > used to 16/32 as needed. I have taked the 9.6mhz out and used higher > on one board 16mhz so that switching to AT 5.25HD got me 8"DD instead > without futzing with drivespeed (rotation rate) that means nothing to > most 3.5, 5.25 (including FD55GFR with the jumper pulled) and 8" drive. > > >That was the beauty of the NEC APC line--from 8" right down to 3.5", the > >data format didn't vary one iota. The NEC 9801 floppies still record 1.3MB > >on a 3.5" drive spinning at 360 RPM. > > > >But the PC-XT 8" drive controllers were a special beast, honest. > > Not really. I can take the stock IBM XT long board and with one change > make it do DSDD 8" (other than cable adaptor). Common parts cost 'bout > $1, acutally cheaper now than 20 years ago then it would have been 1.89. > Replace the 8mhz clock source with 16mhz. > > Thats how it's done. > > Allison > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 17:29:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 15:29:19 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRK00ECNAM66G87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRK00ECNAM66G87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512151529190402.293866F9@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 6:01 PM Allison wrote: >Save for wrtclk controls that pin21 not the clock on pin19 Ya got me, Allison! Pin 21 it is. Curious thing that it must be present to READ also, according to specs. So, what's the lowest clock speed I could run the 765 at and still be assured of reading 8" FM? >I have the distinct advantave of having supported the part in the field > as "factory" for over two years and playing backup for the product >engineer reponseable for the part for another two years while at NEC. >Any question I didn't have answers to were likely propritory. Back when I was still doing floppy controller design, it was the 1781, which doesn't divorce write clock from the master chip clock. Cheers, Chuck From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Dec 15 17:38:29 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:38:29 -0700 Subject: DEC application - CEO Files... References: <0IRJ0039ZNYMR3D0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A1D4CE.7060406@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <03e901c601d0$a7fc4130$367cfea9@newhare> One "CEO" is Data General's "Comprehensive Electronic Office", a very successful office automation software suite that Data General created originally for its Eclipse and MV systems in the very early 1980s and then migrated (parts) to PCs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: ; "Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 1:40 PM Subject: DEC application - CEO Files... > I've got an application and associated data in directories called > CEO-Files. Looks like some kind of Database under VMS. Anyone > familiar with this app??? > > > Curt > > >> > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.13.13/200 - Release Date: > 12/14/2005 > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 17:39:28 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:39:28 -0500 Subject: Sun 386i available In-Reply-To: <200512151818.15227.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> <200512151818.15227.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 15 December 2005 18:08, 9000 VAX wrote: > > fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box > > I'm assuming that was supposed to be private.. but I must say, that's > one huge box! (Or did you mean inches ala " not feet ala '? :) Yes, private and yes, inches. I was thinking about a program I was working on. Actually I thought twice before typed ', and still the wrong one is chosen. vax, 9000 > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 17:55:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:55:07 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <20051215151455.G50760@shell.lmi.net> References: <0IRJ00LJVXHVKYW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20051215151455.G50760@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43A2025B.3060904@bellatlantic.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Dec 2005, Allison wrote: > >>765A write clock rate by drive and density, bit rate is clock/2. >>Size density format writeclock >>----------------------------------- >>8" DD MFM 1000khz >>8" SD FM 500khz (8"SSSD 241k CP/M standard) >> >>5.25 DD MFM 500khz (40track is 360k, 80track 720k) >>5.25 SD FM 250khz >> >>3.5" HD MFM 1000khz (1.44mb) (looks like 8" different CHS) >>3.5" DD MFM 500khz (720k) (same rate as 5.25 DD and 8" SD) >>3.5" ?? FM 250khz (not used obsolete) > > > one more entry to add to that table: > 5.25 "HD" MFM 1000KHz (1.2M) (looks like 8", could be SAME CHS) I wanted to leave that sick puppy out of it (along with 2.88mb). The CHS could be the same, save for 8" DD was often different. >>None of this has anything to do with rotation rate of the media. > > Very true. 8" and "1.2M" is 360RPM, all others are 300 RPM, > with a few exceptions (early Sony 3.5 at 600 RPM, NEC, Weltec, etc.) It sounds upside down to me. The 300rpm 1.2mb gets you a standard data rate 500kbS(1mhz clock) and the 360 gets you the 600kbS rate (1.2mhz clock). I really try to shun that pile from my mind. the general game with spindle speed was one of to cases, lower latency (spin faster) or play games with data rate without altering the controller logic. Maybe even both. No question a 600rpm spindle would get your data around sooner. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 15 18:00:43 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:00:43 -0500 Subject: Sun 386i available References: <200512150735.CAA25165@ss10.danlan.com> <200512151818.15227.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004a01c601d3$c290e200$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "9000 VAX" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Sun 386i available > On 12/15/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Thursday 15 December 2005 18:08, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box > > > > I'm assuming that was supposed to be private.. but I must say, that's > > one huge box! (Or did you mean inches ala " not feet ala '? :) > > Yes, private and yes, inches. I was thinking about a program I was > working on. Actually I thought twice before typed ', and still the > wrong one is chosen. > > vax, 9000 Ah, so we do have some NASA space probe programmers on this list! From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 18:07:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:07:18 -0500 Subject: 68766 chip update Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> Of the one pie-tin of HHC chips I had in my office area (yea, it's a mess - so sue me! ;-) there were 26 (of of approx 140+ total) of the 68766 flavor; about 2/3 were unmarked as to speed, most that were marked were 350ns, and I have a few (read maybe 2 or 3) 300ns. If you *need* 300ns parts, you'll have to specify that speshul. ;-) Digging through the attic last nite, I found where the boxes of the rest of the chips are, (about 10Kg / 22 lbs worth) so given time, I can supply as many as needed by hoards of geeks I'm sure just can't *live* without having a few of these. ;-) I'm thinking of making some into Xmas ornaments! ;-) OK, not really. Anyway, here's the prices (All in US$): Cleaned, Erased & programmed with your custom code: First chip: $8.00 Each additional: $4.00. [[ Order 2 of the above, and get 2 Cleaned & Erased chips free. ]] Cleaned & Erased: First chip: $3.00 Each additional: $1.50 [[ Order 2 of the above, and get 2 extra chips free. ]] Straight outta da bag: First chip: $1.50 Each additional: $0.75 Shipping & Handling: $3.50 US, $5.00 Western Europe, Other areas: Ask. This includes double-bubble-wrap bagging & static bag. Items are shipped US Postal Service Priority Mail, so you can see I don't make any money on the shipping. By the way, I can still make Panasonic HHC Basic chips as well, same prices as the "Custom Programmed" chips above. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 18:07:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:07:35 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <200512151529190402.293866F9@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRK00ECNAM66G87@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <200512151529190402.293866F9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A20547.6010804@bellatlantic.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/15/2005 at 6:01 PM Allison wrote: > >>Save for wrtclk controls that pin21 not the clock on pin19 > > Ya got me, Allison! Pin 21 it is. Curious thing that it must be present > to READ also, according to specs. So, what's the lowest clock speed I > could run the 765 at and still be assured of reading 8" FM? Pin21 can be at DC, Pin19 can be slower than 4mhz it's unknown how far that can be pushed. The RDW signal on pin22 must be correct for the media (RDW is Read Data Window and its the recive clock). The only reason that write clock must be present on read is to keep the write logic alive as a clock splices (glitches) on the write clock can cause the write counters to burp and crud can come out during write. It's not part of the read logic. Think of the read and write logic as being mostly seperate like in a USRT like COM2601. Then add a custom ucontroller between them and the bus to do stuff. > Back when I was still doing floppy controller design, it was the 1781, > which doesn't divorce write clock from the master chip clock. True of all the WD parts. Very unlike the 765. I found that people that worked with either found the other a bit jarring to teir thinking when they switched. Not so much right or wrong just plain different. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 15 18:12:53 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:12:53 -0700 Subject: 68766 chip update In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A20685.10906@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > By the way, I can still make Panasonic HHC Basic chips as well, same > prices as the "Custom Programmed" chips above. > Can you do bipolar PROM's too? > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... > zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" > > . > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 15 18:16:54 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:16:54 +0000 Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your mail name reminded me of a conversation I had today with an ex-Digit with regard to the Vax 9000 and its reliability record which is less than good. Apologies if this question has been asked before and is in the archives, but did you work with VAX9000s back in the day? My reason for asking is that I believed the VAX9000 would be watercooled (its codename was Aquarius) but shipped machines were aircooled and I'm wondering why there was a change in policy? All ex-digits can reply of course :) The person I was talking to today explained that their 9000s were removed and replaced with 7000s....must've been a hell of a drain on Digit resources...... On 15/12/05 23:39, "9000 VAX" wrote: > On 12/15/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Thursday 15 December 2005 18:08, 9000 VAX wrote: >>> fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box >> >> I'm assuming that was supposed to be private.. but I must say, that's >> one huge box! (Or did you mean inches ala " not feet ala '? :) > > Yes, private and yes, inches. I was thinking about a program I was > working on. Actually I thought twice before typed ', and still the > wrong one is chosen. > > vax, 9000 > >> >> Pat >> -- >> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org >> > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 15 18:37:20 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:37:20 -0500 Subject: 68766 chip update In-Reply-To: <43A20685.10906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215193532.04e56d98@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> >>By the way, I can still make Panasonic HHC Basic chips as well, same >>prices as the "Custom Programmed" chips above. >Can you do bipolar PROM's too? Not without the right medication & lotsa therapy... ;-) Hrm... Seriously, I'm not sure - but if you send me a couple of part numbers I can check the parts database & see... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 15 18:39:51 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:39:51 -0500 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <200512151547.jBFFkxZS061957@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007101c601d9$3a2593b0$6401a8c0@barry> RE: "In the US, the doctrine of first sale states that whether the EULA allows transfer or not, the item may be transferred. " That is not correct. What people don't understand is that the EULA and copyright are independent and provide different sets of rights and restrictions to the buyer (licensee) and seller (copyright holder and licensor). The buyer (of a copy of a program under copyright laws), who is also a licensee (under the EULA) is bound by the most restrictive provisions of BOTH the copyright laws and the EULA. Thus, if the EULA prohibits resale, that prohibition indirectly but very effectively over-rides the first sale doctrine of the copyright law. Essentially, the buyer is subject to two separate sets of terms (those imposed by the copyright laws, and those imposed by the EULA), and cannot violate either of them. Should the buyer resell his copy of the software in such a situation, he indeed would not have directly violated the copyright law (because the first sales doctrine permits resale), and he could not be prosecuted for any violation of the copyright law. However, if resale was prohibited by the EULA, then he has violated the terms of the EULA, to which he [presumably] agreed and therefore became bound by. Consequently, he could still be the subject of legal action because he violated the EULA, even though he did not violate copyright laws. The EULA is a contract between the buyer and seller, and it's violation is a civil case between the buyer and the seller. However, there is an interesting "catch" here that applies to software which does not apply in the case of other copyrighted works like a book. Software cannot be used without making a copy of the software (e.g. duplicating the copy of the software which resides on the disk drive in the memory of the computer). Such duplication is a violation of the copyright laws UNLESS the person doing the copying has permission from the copyright holder. The EULA ***IS*** that permission. Thus, because software cannot be used without also making a copy of it (unlike a book, which can be read without making a copy of it), use of the software in violation of terms of the EULA (or without agreement to the EULA) automatically becomes a violation of the copyright laws. What this means in practical terms is that if software is resold in violation of the EULA, then the seller has violated the EULA. The seller is therefore subject to legal action for violating the EULA, while the buyer will be subject to violation of the copyright laws IF HE ACTUALLY USES THE SOFTWARE (because use will require duplication of the software, and the buyer will have no authorization to perform such duplication). Copyrighted books differ from copyrighted software in not one but two important ways: First, there normally is no EULA. Second, a book can be used without also, in the process, making a copy of it, while use of software, by definition, also requires making a copy of the software. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 15 18:44:32 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:44:32 -0500 Subject: Fancy Font? In-Reply-To: <200512151547.jBFFkxZS061957@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007201c601d9$e1436820$6401a8c0@barry> I was an authorized reseller/distributor of the entire SoftCraft line of font products, including Fancy Font and Fancy Word. Yes, I've used it (it's been a very long time), and in fact I still have all of it, both the programs and a very large selection of fonts (probably over 1,000, counting different point sizes as different fonts). In fact, although it's an anachronism and I probably have not used it in almost 20 years, I have all of that material right here on the hard drive of this computer (along with Microsoft Word .... FOR MS-DOS). [I also have the original distribution copies, in the complete retail packaging, with documentation.] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 18:55:01 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:55:01 -0500 Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) Message-ID: <0IRK005G1FVB51D1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) > From: Adrian Graham > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:16:54 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Your mail name reminded me of a conversation I had today with an ex-Digit >with regard to the Vax 9000 and its reliability record which is less than >good. Apologies if this question has been asked before and is in the >archives, but did you work with VAX9000s back in the day? > >My reason for asking is that I believed the VAX9000 would be watercooled >(its codename was Aquarius) but shipped machines were aircooled and I'm >wondering why there was a change in policy? Water was new to DEC required special people to fix it and some sites didn't like the idea or could not support water for the system. NY some of the older buildings took near a year to get adaquate power for smaller machines. Water, forget about that. Reminds me of a site in Salt Lake City, water flooded top floor and sustem on second floor was crushed when the building pancaked from the flood. >All ex-digits can reply of course :) It was a good machine that held up well in use. The bulk of them succumed when installed (phase rotation had the blowers backward!) and the usual field circus tricks. >The person I was talking to today explained that their 9000s were removed >and replaced with 7000s....must've been a hell of a drain on Digit >resources...... Didn't want to support machine that was so unique parts and skills wise. There was (may still be) a PDP1 in Yellowknife doing bookeeping for a mill. Field service offered them all sorts of inducements during the 80s to replace it. I believe they system cost over a half million to replace with software and stuff tossed in. It was just too costly to fix the PDP1 if it broke. Allison >On 15/12/05 23:39, "9000 VAX" wrote: > >> On 12/15/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> On Thursday 15 December 2005 18:08, 9000 VAX wrote: >>>> fedex rate a 30'x25'x25' box >>> >>> I'm assuming that was supposed to be private.. but I must say, that's >>> one huge box! (Or did you mean inches ala " not feet ala '? :) >> >> Yes, private and yes, inches. I was thinking about a program I was >> working on. Actually I thought twice before typed ', and still the >> wrong one is chosen. >> >> vax, 9000 >> >>> >>> Pat >>> -- >>> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >>> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org >>> >> >> > >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >collection? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 15 18:41:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:41:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ROM dumps for Heathkit / Zenith 88, 89 etc In-Reply-To: <1134403918.439da14eaf452@netmail.pipex.net> from "robin england" at Dec 12, 5 04:11:58 pm Message-ID: > I am trying to locate ROM dumps for a couple of H88 / Z89 machines I have. In > the H88, the MTR-89 (444-62) ROM is dead. In the Z89 the MTR-90 ROM has been > removed (444-142). > > Can you help me, or direct me to a place where I can obtain dumps of these ROMs? If nobody else can help. I've got a binary dump of the MTR-90 ROM here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 15 18:49:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:49:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRJ004DHHXT4VOB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Dec 15, 5 07:42:00 am Message-ID: > Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do > 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was I don;'t think you mean that!. The 720K 3.5" format is the same data rate as the 360K 5.25" format. You mean any controller that can do the 1.44M 3.5" format (or for that matter the 1.2M 5.25" format), surely. Those are the same as the 8" data rate. > used it's how it was used. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 19:38:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:38:01 -0800 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <007101c601d9$3a2593b0$6401a8c0@barry> References: <007101c601d9$3a2593b0$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200512151738010474.29AE3896@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 7:39 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >Copyrighted books differ from copyrighted software in not one but two >important ways: First, there normally is no EULA. Not yet, anyway. And, AFAIK, it's perfectly permissible to reverse-engineer a book. :) I suspect that DRM will put more interesting twists into both software and music. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 19:39:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 20:39:16 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK003N7HX7QC08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:49:19 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >> 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was > >I don;'t think you mean that!. The 720K 3.5" format is the same data rate >as the 360K 5.25" format. You mean any controller that can do the 1.44M >3.5" format (or for that matter the 1.2M 5.25" format), surely. Those are >the same as the 8" data rate. > >> used it's how it was used. > >-tony We've been through this already Your two hours behind. ;) Yes, the data rate for 360k 5.25 is 250kbS, same for 3.5" 720k and ALSO 8" SINGLE DENSITY. I'll bet you read that assuming double density. Look at the table I put up. Really, I have many systems with floppies, most all with 765 based controllers of my design. I've supported others in their design. While my typing is subject to a coordination problem and crappy PC keyboards my main fun is leaving out just enough to see someone jump to say.. but but but..! Allison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 19:43:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:43:09 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512151743090088.29B2EA28@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 12:49 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >> 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was > >I don;'t think you mean that!. The 720K 3.5" format is the same data rate >as the 360K 5.25" format. You mean any controller that can do the 1.44M >3.5" format (or for that matter the 1.2M 5.25" format), surely. Those are >the same as the 8" data rate. Yeah, he did--sort of. This assumes that the data separator can be jiggered to deliver separated FM data at the same rate that it delivers 3.5" separated MFM data. i.e., 8" FM has the same data rate as 720K 3.5" MFM. Although, I'm still puzzling over my databook's definition of pin 21, it says "500 KHz for FM and 1 MHz for MFM" but makes no mention of write data rate (i.e. mimifloppy vs. 8"). Could this be simply something left out? Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 20:05:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:05:00 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK00CO9J3Z1QE6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:43:09 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/16/2005 at 12:49 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>> Any PC controller that can do 720k 3.5" format can do >>> 8" as it's the same data rate. it's not what chips was >> >>I don;'t think you mean that!. The 720K 3.5" format is the same data rate >>as the 360K 5.25" format. You mean any controller that can do the 1.44M >>3.5" format (or for that matter the 1.2M 5.25" format), surely. Those are >>the same as the 8" data rate. > >Yeah, he did--sort of. This assumes that the data separator can be >jiggered to deliver separated FM data at the same rate that it delivers >3.5" separated MFM data. i.e., 8" FM has the same data rate as 720K 3.5" >MFM. > >Although, I'm still puzzling over my databook's definition of pin 21, it >says "500 KHz for FM and 1 MHz for MFM" but makes no mention of write data >rate (i.e. mimifloppy vs. 8"). Could this be simply something left out? It's seriously incomplete. What data book is it? If anything it also forgets 250khz (older FM 5.25). Look at the schematic from apnotes, the authors did make an effort to unhide information. It's just a matter of following the logic. Having more of the text would help but with slowpoke scanner 31 pages would take at least 4 hours. Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Dec 15 20:19:42 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:19:42 -0800 Subject: 68766 chip update In-Reply-To: <43A20685.10906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051215142806.04662c48@mail.30below.com> <43A20685.10906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512151819420812.BEB1D8A7@192.168.42.129> Hi, Roger, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 15-Dec-05 at 17:12 woodelf wrote: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> >> By the way, I can still make Panasonic HHC Basic chips as well, same >> prices as the "Custom Programmed" chips above. >> >Can you do bipolar PROM's too? If he can't, I can. And I don't charge anything other than return postage for CLASSICCMP folk if it's for a 'classic' project. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 15 20:26:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:26:04 -0800 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives In-Reply-To: <0IRK00CO9J3Z1QE6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRK00CO9J3Z1QE6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512151826040134.29DA3487@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 9:05 PM Allison wrote: >It's seriously incomplete. What data book is it? Rev 1. of the Datasheet, circa 1983--about 16 pages. The Intel 8272A from the Microprocessor and Peripherals 1983 databook looks to be a literal copy of it. Has anyone ever seen a uPD7265? I haven't. Cheers, Chuck From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Dec 15 20:33:13 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:33:13 -0500 Subject: Copyright Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3372A@mail.catcorner.org> > From: Barry Watzman [mailto:Watzman at neo.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:40 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Copyright > Second, a book can be > used without also, in the process, making a copy of it, while use of > software, by definition, also requires making a copy of the software. Uh, not always so... I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not making a copy of it to run it. Unless you're implying the process of reading it into memory to execute is copying it. IMHO that's a mighty fine line. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Dec 15 20:34:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:34:49 -0500 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <0IRK005NWKHN58V1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:26:04 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/15/2005 at 9:05 PM Allison wrote: > >>It's seriously incomplete. What data book is it? > >Rev 1. of the Datasheet, circa 1983--about 16 pages. The Intel 8272A from >the Microprocessor and Peripherals 1983 databook looks to be a literal copy >of it. Oh, that one, I have it too. Yes, it's brief to the point of error. Hint, Intel is the second source. >Has anyone ever seen a uPD7265? I haven't. > I have two, and documentation. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 15 20:59:53 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:59:53 -0800 Subject: A Hobbyist DECnet Network In-Reply-To: <439CFEC5.2020306@jbrain.com> References: <8dd2d95c0512091434q22ff8fedm62b2d2cb9315646a@mail.gmail.com> <439CFEC5.2020306@jbrain.com> Message-ID: FYI, this is now live, anyone interested should probably head over to the HECnet mailing list. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bob at jfcl.com Thu Dec 15 21:00:49 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:00:49 -0800 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <004c01c601ec$eecc16a0$0401010a@jfcl.com> The hobbyist DECnet is actually working - we have now five distinct locations connected and six or seven machines online 24x7 with a couple dozen more that are turned on occasionally. Here's a SHOW NETWORK - OpenVMS Network status for local node 2.1 LEGATO on 15-DEC-2005 18:40:09.95 Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Area 1 4 1 SVA-0 -> 1.13 MIM 2 0 0 (Local) -> 2.1 LEGATO 11 4 1 SVA-0 -> 11.1023 A11RTR 60 10 1 TCP-0-0 -> 60.664 PDXVAX Node Links Cost Hops Next Hop to Node 2.7 CODA 0 4 1 SVA-0 -> 2.7 CODA 2.100 PETEY 0 10 1 TCP-0-1 -> 2.100 PETEY Total of 2 nodes. You can see a full list of the nodes and descriptions here http://www.jfcl.com/Computers/dcn.pdf We've been using Johnny's HECnet mailing list to communicate http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html If you'd like to hook up we'd love to have more nodes! Bob Armstrong -----Original Message----- >from: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] >I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked >together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no >really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do >"SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of >machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share >access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 >or 20, machines. > > Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating? > > I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a >few email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet, > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > >At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is >having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two >nodes. > > Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going > strong? > > As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the >Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for >point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and >even DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. >Right now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist >license program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet >circuits using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. >They're simple to set up and administer. > > I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, >and I can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated Phase IV >routing node. > >Bob Armstrong From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 15 22:15:36 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:15:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: <0IRK005G1FVB51D1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > Water was new to DEC required special people to fix it and some sites > didn't like the idea or could not support water for the system. >From what I understand, DEC was amazingly inept at dealing with water cooling. > NY some > of the older buildings took near a year to get adaquate power for smaller > machines. Water, forget about that. I can agree to this, working enought with NYC and the thugs that run the buildings. It took FOREVER for those guys to get ANYTHING done. Oh, and bursting water pipes were always fun in NYC. At the AOL node at 60 Hudson street, we got flooeded not one, but twice. Both during the holidays. The second time drenched us but did not kill us for long - it did a good job killing off NASDAQs main node, however. > It was a good machine that held up well in use. The bulk of them > succumed when installed (phase rotation had the blowers backward!) > and the usual field circus tricks. Obviously DEC had not figured out the phase rotatiom sensor yet, unlike most others. As much as I might be razzing the 9000s, it is one of the two VAX machines I want (the other being an 11/780 - hey, I went to school with one). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 15 22:37:43 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 23:37:43 -0500 Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/15/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > Your mail name reminded me of a conversation I had today with an ex-Digit > with regard to the Vax 9000 and its reliability record which is less than > good. Apologies if this question has been asked before and is in the > archives, but did you work with VAX9000s back in the day? No. I have never seen a VAX 9000. > > My reason for asking is that I believed the VAX9000 would be watercooled > (its codename was Aquarius) but shipped machines were aircooled and I'm > wondering why there was a change in policy? I don't know. I learned of what you said from the internet but I don't know the reason. > > All ex-digits can reply of course :) > > The person I was talking to today explained that their 9000s were removed > and replaced with 7000s....must've been a hell of a drain on Digit > resources...... > > On 15/12/05 23:39, "9000 VAX" wrote: > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 15 23:11:02 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:11:02 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> Well, I didn't get any replies to my question about how best to archive Cromemco software, so let me ask again in broader terms: Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and downloadable/emailable? For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted back to a CP/M format disk somehow. So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? TIA, m From Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com Thu Dec 15 13:02:37 2005 From: Pat_Fitzpatrick at pmc-sierra.com (Pat Fitzpatrick) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:02:37 -0800 Subject: HP64000 Hardware, Software, Manuals Available Message-ID: <2502BD5D296162428745A16512D0B8962E59D4@bby1exm07.pmc_nt.nt.pmc-sierra.bc.ca> Hi List, Sorry for the long post. My insurance settlement (from a basement flood) is FINALLY settled and I'm having a massive pre-Christmas inventory reduction. I have a whole bunch of HP64000 Logic Development System parts that need new homes (see lists below). No hard drive, thoguh -- which is why I'm getting rid of the system. It's all from the early/mid 1980s and was pretty cool at the time. Actually, some of it still is!!! I belileve that it's all in good working condition (at least there were no problems last time it was used -- though that was a couple of years ago for most of it. No guarantees, though.). There are also a couple of bags of miscellaneous cables etc. and a few boxes of floppies available to whoever wants most of the hardware. I'm located in Saskatoon, SK, Canada so shipping on the mainframes (or massive boxes of manuals) might get expensive. I'm willing to crate and ship if required -- though it might take a few days... Any and all offers (of $$$ or just good homes) would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat Manuals Owner's Manual 7941 and 7945 Disc Drive -- September 1984 (07940-90901) Site Environmental Requirements for Disk/Tape Drives -- August 1983 (5955-3456) Model 64100A Mainframe Service Manual -- February 1983 (64100-90910) - 2 copies Model 64151A Emulation Memory Controller -- May 1982 (64151-90901) Model 64155A Wide Address Memory Controller -- June 1981 (64155-90901) Model 64161A/126A/163A Emulation Memory -- July 1983 (64161-90901) Model 64161A/126A/163A Emulation Memory -- January 1984 (64161-90901) Model 64191A 6805 Emulator Controller -- January 1983 (64191-90901) Model 64192A 6804 R/U Emulator Pod -- January 1983 (64192-90901) Emulator/Analyzer 6805P -- April 1983 (64193-90903) Model 64200A Emulator/Analyzer 8080/8085 -- April 1983 (64200-90908) Model 64201A 8080/85 Emulator Control Board -- July 1983 (64200-90909) Model 64203A 8085 Emulation Pod -- May 1982 (64203-90902) Model 64214A 6809 Emulator Control Board -- March 1983 (64214-90901) Model 64215/64216 Emulator/Analyzer 6809/6809E -- September 1982 (64215-90903) Model 64215A 6809 Emulator Pod -- July 1983 (64215-90902) Model 64261A 8048 Emulator Controller -- August 1982 (64261-90901) Model 64261A Emulator /Analyzer 8048 -- July 1983 (64261-90903) Model 64262A 8048 Emulator Pod -- December 1981 (64262-90901) Model 64263A 8951 Emulator Control Card -- April 1984 (64263-90901) Model 64264A 8051 Emulator/Analyzer Reference Manual -- May 1984 (64264-09091) Model 64264A 8051 Emulator Pod -- April 1984 (64264-90902) Model 64302A Wide Logic Analyzer -- May 1982 (64302-90902) - 2 copies Model 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64304-90902) Model 64310A Software Performance Analyzer -- March 1983 (64310-90901) Software Performance Analyzer -- April 1983 (64310-90902) Model 64620A Logic State/Software Analyzer Reference Manual November 1983 (64620-90903) Model 64621A State Analysis Control Board -- June 1983 (64621-90903) Model 64622A 40 Channel State Acquisition Board -- August 1983 (64622-90902) Model 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64304-90902) PROM Programmer Reference Manual -- August 1982 (64500-90909) Model 64500S Positive PROM Programmer -- October 1982 (64500-90910) Model 64601A Timing Analysis Control Board -- October 1982 (64601-90904) Model 64601A Logic Timing Analyzer Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64601-90905) - 2 copies Model 64602A Timing Acquisition Board -- November 1982 (64602-90902) Model 64502A Positive PROM Programmer Module -- January 1981 (64502-90903) Model 64604A Timing Analysis Probe -- October 1982 (64604-90902) Model 64515C PROM Programmer Module -- July 1983 (64515-90903) Model 64620S Logic State/Software Analyzer Reference Manual -- March 1984 (64620-90905) Model 64650A General Purpose Preprocessor -- October 1983 (64650-90902) - 2 copies Model 64941A Flexible Disk (Floppy) Drive Controller -- April 1983 (64941-90902) - 2 copies Flexible Disk Drive Reference Manual -- January 1983 (64941-90905) C/64000 Compiler Reference Manual -- February 1983 (64800-90907) Pascal/64000 Compiler Reference Manual -- June 1982 (64800-90908) - 2 copies Pascal/64000 Reference Manual -- January 1894 (64800-90909) Model 64810A Pascal/64000 Compiler Supplement 8085 -- October 1983 (64810-90902) Pascal/64000 Compiler Supplement 6809 -- February 1983 (64813-90903) Model 64822AF/AT C/64000 Compiler Supplement 6809 Family -- May 1985 (64822-90901) Assembler Supplement 6805 / 6809 -- July 1983 (64844-09094) - 2 copies Model 64845A Assembler Supplement MC68000 -- February 1983 (64845-90903) Model 64855A Assembler Supplement 8051 -- December 1980 (64855-90902) Model 64941A Flexible Disk Drive Reference Manual -- January 1984 (64941-90906) Model 64100AF/AT System Overview -- February 1982 (64980-90912) - 2 copies Measurement System Reference Manual -- May 1982 (64980-90922) Model 64100AF/AT Measurement System Reference Manual -- July 1985 (64980-90922) System Software Reference Manual -- January 1983 (64980-90928) Installation and Configuration Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64980-90929) - 2 copies Editor Manual -- January 1984 (64980-90930) Editor Manual -- March 1985 (64980-90930) File Format Reference Manual -- May 1985 (64980-90933) System Software Reference Manual -- May 1985 (64980-90934) Terminal Mode Operating Manual -- January 1985 (64980-90935) Emulator / Internal Analysis 8-bit Reference Manual -- September 1981 (64980-90996) Assembler/Linker Reference Manual -- July 1983 (64980-90997) - 3 copies Assembler Supplement 8048 Series -- April 1980 (no P/N - photocopy of manual) Software (5-1/4 floppies) 64100-12036 REV 2346A DISK FORMAT, FIX, TEST (1 OF 3) OPERATING SYSTEM (2 OF 3) OPERATING SYSTEM (3 OF 3) 64192-12002 REV 2309A 6805 R/U&P Emulation (1 disk) 64215-12006 REV 2316A 6809 EMULATION 64262-12003 REV 2320 33283 8048 EMULATION (1 disk) 64264-12000 REV 2417A 8051 EMULATOR (1 disk) 64304-12001 REV 2350A EBPP PV & INVERSE ASMBS (1 disk) 64304-12002 REV 2420A EBPP PV (1 disk) 64500-12003 REV 2329 33383 PROM PROGRAMMER (1 disk) 64600-12003 REV 2326A TIMING (2 disks) 64620-12005 REV 2350A STATE (2 disks) 64620-12006 REV 2421A STATE (2 disks) 64810-12009 REV 2420A PASCAL COMP 8080/8085 (2 disks) 64813-12007 REV 2419A PASC_COMP_6809 (2 disks) 64822-12005 REV 1.05 6809 C COMPILER (2 disks) 64840-12009 REV 2234A 8080/5 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 64844-12009 REV 2315A 6805/9 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 64846-12005 REV 2219 28782 8048 FAMILY ASSEMBLER (1 disk) 64855-12003 REV 2234A 8051 ASSEMBLER/LINKER (1 disk) 8085 Software for 64K (handwritten label -- copy of original disk???) All software also recorded on tape cartridge for 7912 disk/tape drive Hardware 64100A Mainframe w/ 400W Power Supply S/N 2336A 04994 64100A Mainframe w/ 400W Power Supply S/N 2336A 06404 Boards 64151A Static RAM Control Board (2 boards) 64155A Wide Memory Address Control Board 64162A 64K RAM Board (2 boards) 64191A 6805 Emulator Control Board 64201A 8080/8085 Emulator Control Board 64214A 6809 Emulator Control Board 64261A 8048 Control and Emulator Boards (2 board set) 64263A 8051 Emulator Control Board 64302A WD Anzlyzer Board (2 boards) 64304A Emulation Bus Preprocessor Board 64310A Software Performance Analyzer Board 64501A PROM Programmer Board 64601A Timing Analyzer Control Board 64602A Timing Analyzer Board 64621A State Analyzer Control Board 64633A State Analyzer 40 Channel Board 64941A Floppy Disk Control Board (2 boards) Pods etc, 64192A 6805 Emulator Probe 64203A 8085 Emulator Probe 64215A 6809 Emulator Probe 64262A 8048 Emulator Probe 64264A 8051 Emulator Probe 64502A PROM Prog Module (Intel 2716, 2758. TI 2516, 2532) 64509A PROM Prog Module (Intel 2732, 2732A) 64515C PROM Prog Module (Intel 2764, 27128, 27256. TI 2564) 64604A 8 Channel Timing Pod (with 7 leads) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 15 19:31:02 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:31:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: need drivers/docs for AST Mac286 board set Message-ID: <20051216013102.52754.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Dec 16 00:56:08 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:56:08 +0100 Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: References: <0IRK005G1FVB51D1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051216065608.GO13985@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2005-12-15 23:15:36 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > As much as I might be razzing the 9000s, it is one of the two VAX machines > I want (the other being an 11/780 - hey, I went to school with one). If I could pay for shipping, I'd love to take one, too... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 01:01:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:01:17 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC 5150-class machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like to put to use, but all I have for this machine is a Western Digital MFM controller. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 16 01:10:28 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 02:10:28 -0500 Subject: need drivers/docs for AST Mac286 board set References: <20051216013102.52754.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a601c6020f$cb989fa0$0500fea9@game> http://web.archive.org/web/20010822185001/http://homepage.mac.com/jruschme/Mac286.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: need drivers/docs for AST Mac286 board set > :) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 16 01:14:04 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 02:14:04 -0500 Subject: need drivers/docs for AST Mac286 board set References: <20051216013102.52754.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b501c60210$4c9233a0$0500fea9@game> http://www.maximumdebian.org/docs/mirrors/macdrivermuseum/cards/Mac286_3.02.sit This link works for the software ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:31 PM Subject: need drivers/docs for AST Mac286 board set > :) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 01:13:32 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:13:32 -0600 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <575131af0512151321t1d310275rf586987831ca841c@mail.gmail.com> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20051212191304.04fc6598@mail.30below.com> <575131af0512151321t1d310275rf586987831ca841c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A2691C.6060208@oldskool.org> Liam Proven wrote: > Before Linux, if you wanted a cheap xNix for the PC, there was > Coherent. Pretty decent system, from everything I heard. The 386 > version wasn't limited to small-model code, either, AFAICR. All true, depending on how you interpret the word "decent". What killed Coherent was lack of a TCP/IP stack and virtual memory. The head of the company decided that a pretty GUI (X Windows) was worth more of R&D's time. The 386 version ran in true protected mode and had a flat address space. The C compiler was so size-efficient that we got a version of X Windows running on a 2MB 386 (remember, no virtual memory!). > Don't think anyone ever accused the Mark Williams Company of being evil! Not until the final year, where all of us were cursing the head of the company (I was an employee for 3 years). But I agree with you, it was a great company filled with very talented, quirky people. The boat anchor manual was worth the $99 all by itself (and toward the end of the company, Linux users were ordering Coherent just to get their hands on the manual, since Linux was around version 1.2 and had no real docs). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 02:13:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:13:45 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 1:01 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. > >This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC 5150-class >machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like to put to use, but all >I >have for this machine is a Western Digital MFM controller. If you're going to boot from the SCSI drive, you'll need a BIOS extension ROM on it. Well, the DTC 3150 or 3250 (with floppy controller) is a pretty good one. Forget the Seagate ST-01/ST-02; they tend to work with Seagate drives and not much else The Trantor T130 is pretty good (Trantor became part of Adaptec). I'll see if I can think of some more... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 02:21:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 00:21:56 -0800 Subject: Fancy Font? In-Reply-To: <007201c601d9$e1436820$6401a8c0@barry> References: <007201c601d9$e1436820$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200512160021560672.2B2002AC@10.0.0.252> On 12/15/2005 at 7:44 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >...been a very long time), and in fact I still have all of it, both the >programs and a very large selection of fonts (probably over 1,000, counting >different point sizes as different fonts). In fact, although it's an >anachronism and I probably have not used it in almost 20 years, I have all >of that material right here on the hard drive of this computer (along with >Microsoft Word .... FOR MS-DOS). [I also have the original distribution >copies, in the complete retail packaging, with documentation.] I've got a Fancy Font diskette here, but I can't remember for the life of me why or when I picked it up. BTW, I still have the 5.25" DOS sampler of MS-WORD that came with PC Magazine. It still works, believe it or not. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 05:25:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:25:12 +0000 Subject: VAX 9000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A2A418.2080402@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > As much as I might be razzing the 9000s, it is one of the two VAX machines > I want (the other being an 11/780 - hey, I went to school with one). That must have been hell to carry about with you ;) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 05:59:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:59:32 -0500 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3372A@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3372A@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <20051216065932.2fb20199.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 21:33:13 -0500 Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > From: Barry Watzman [mailto:Watzman at neo.rr.com] > > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 7:40 PM > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Copyright > > > > > Second, a book can be > > used without also, in the process, making a copy of it, while > > use of software, by definition, also requires making a copy of > > the software. > > Uh, not always so... > > I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not > making a copy of it to run it. Unless you're implying the > process of reading it into memory to execute is copying it. IMHO > that's a mighty fine line. Reading it into memory is copying it. Lawyers make a bunch of their money due to fine lines. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 06:01:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:01:51 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> References: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> M H Stein wrote: > Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program > seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to > archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and > downloadable/emailable? ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly done a brilliant job when I've tried it. What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows version is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways to reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a comment field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record where bad spots were on the original disk. > For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, > Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for > someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, > a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted > back to a CP/M format disk somehow. Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, then spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the future to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! > So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS to the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer filenames etc.). I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but I'm happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that ImageDisk won't even run under DOSEMU though. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 16 07:00:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:00:51 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRL00MUSDGV9X70@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Archiving Software > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:01:51 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >M H Stein wrote: >> Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program >> seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to >> archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and >> downloadable/emailable? > >ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly >done a brilliant job when I've tried it. > >What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to >use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows version >is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways to >reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) > >Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a comment >field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record where >bad spots were on the original disk. My solution for CP/M disk so I can work at the file level is to use one of David's emulators and serial down/up load the content using xmodem to either a copy of Procom running on the same box or to a real CP/M crate. The SIM to Procom thing has caveats (I had to fire up a win98se box) as NT is to fussy about touching the metal. However, once i had the w98se engine going I had to loop com1 to com2 (real wire!) worked well using the Horizon Sim. The first case was Sim to real CP/M machine and that neatly sidesteps the old two systems common OS incompatable media. >> For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, >> Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for >> someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, >> a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted >> back to a CP/M format disk somehow. > >Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop >someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, then >spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original >hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. If you want to get/put files on CP/M disks the problem is one level more complex. To do image manipulation of CP/M disks the utility must understand CP/M filesystem AND know the know the internal format of the media imaged. For example the internal format of a single density NS* CP/M disk is layed out different from a Compupro CP/M image internally. Reason for that is CP/M applies allocation blocks of differing granularity that is disk size dependent and also sector skewing. So to read or write the internal file you need to run the equivilent of a CP/M BDOS and disk portion of the BIOS. Not that difficult but certainly more effort. The ugly part is getting the CP/M disk parameter table and sector skew data into the tool for each imaged cp/m disk. >Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern >media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the future >to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! Without a doubt. >> So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? > >Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM >data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own >collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no >hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. For NS* hard sector a real NS* and the Sim work fine. For others I have real systems and serial ports. >I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS to >the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any >processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer >filenames etc.). > >I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I >suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but I'm >happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the >Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that ImageDisk >won't even run under DOSEMU though. Dos is not as bothersome as full out winders. though I've found my W9x boxes do this well enough and as demonstrated I can run sim to procom so sim to sim may be possible on one box and with two boxes no question. Allison From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Dec 16 07:16:24 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:16:24 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: For archiving MSDOS disks I use ZIP files unless the disk is bootable, in which case I use readimg/writimg (Microsoft utilities). For cross-platform archiving, the only thing I've done so far is on the Apple, using ADT. However, ADT brings-up an idea. In my Altair emulator, we have a CP/M utility on one of the disk images which allows you to transfer files from the host to the emulator space and back (read.com and write.com I think). The program uses an invalid opcode trap to communicate with the host file system. You would use a program to convert a CP/M COM program on the host to an Intel HEX file which is then read into the CP/M environment through the trap mechanism. The reverse would happen except that the "write" does not convert it to Intel HEX -- it deposits it as a CP/M COM file. The source is on one of the disk images. There's no reason why it couldn't be enhanced to move entire disk images instead of just files, and since it's a CP/M utility it should work on any CP/M system. Unfortunately I don't have enough experience in programming for CP/M, nor the time right now, to do it. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:02 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archiving Software M H Stein wrote: > Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program > seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to > archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and > downloadable/emailable? ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly done a brilliant job when I've tried it. What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows version is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways to reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a comment field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record where bad spots were on the original disk. > For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, > Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for > someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, > a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted > back to a CP/M format disk somehow. Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, then spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the future to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! > So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS to the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer filenames etc.). I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but I'm happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that ImageDisk won't even run under DOSEMU though. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 16 07:24:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:24:58 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRL009OBEL1SQ30@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Archiving Software > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:16:24 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >For archiving MSDOS disks I use ZIP files unless the disk is bootable, in >which case I use readimg/writimg (Microsoft utilities). > >For cross-platform archiving, the only thing I've done so far is on the >Apple, using ADT. > >However, ADT brings-up an idea. In my Altair emulator, we have a CP/M >utility on one of the disk images which allows you to transfer files from >the host to the emulator space and back (read.com and write.com I think). >The program uses an invalid opcode trap to communicate with the host file >system. You would use a program to convert a CP/M COM program on the host to >an Intel HEX file which is then read into the CP/M environment through the >trap mechanism. The reverse would happen except that the "write" does not >convert it to Intel HEX -- it deposits it as a CP/M COM file. There are programs for CP/M to handel hexfiles: LOAD creates a com file from hex (CP/M standard tool) DDT/SID/ZSID can do the same. Unload is a PD program (small) that can create an intel hexfile from a .com file (the reverse of load). Those two with PIP file.foo=CON: [or rdr:] can move files in or out on a serial port. There are many ways of doing this. Allison >The source is on one of the disk images. There's no reason why it couldn't >be enhanced to move entire disk images instead of just files, and since it's >a CP/M utility it should work on any CP/M system. Unfortunately I don't have >enough experience in programming for CP/M, nor the time right now, to do it. > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:02 AM >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Archiving Software > >M H Stein wrote: >> Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging >program >> seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to >> archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible >and >> downloadable/emailable? > >ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly > >done a brilliant job when I've tried it. > >What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to > >use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows >version >is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways >to >reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) > >Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a >comment >field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record >where >bad spots were on the original disk. > >> For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, >> Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for >> someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, >> a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted > >> back to a CP/M format disk somehow. > >Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop >someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, >then >spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original >hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. > >Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern >media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the >future >to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! > >> So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? > >Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM >data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own >collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no >hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. > >I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS to > >the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any >processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer >filenames etc.). > >I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I >suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but >I'm >happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the >Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that >ImageDisk >won't even run under DOSEMU though. > > >cheers > >Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Dec 16 07:34:02 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:34:02 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: The method (using PIP and a COM port) works well for physical machines. We wrote these utilities for the Altair32 to talk directly to the host hardware. Point being that someone could write a generic CP/M utility which can dump a disk image over a COM port instead of only a file. I like ADT because it has the nifty ability to download the transfer program to the Apple using console redirection...ADT basically stuffs a monitor script into the Apple over the serial connection. CP/M probably has the same ability...I don't know. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:25 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Archiving Software > >Subject: RE: Archiving Software > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:16:24 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >For archiving MSDOS disks I use ZIP files unless the disk is bootable, in >which case I use readimg/writimg (Microsoft utilities). > >For cross-platform archiving, the only thing I've done so far is on the >Apple, using ADT. > >However, ADT brings-up an idea. In my Altair emulator, we have a CP/M >utility on one of the disk images which allows you to transfer files from >the host to the emulator space and back (read.com and write.com I think). >The program uses an invalid opcode trap to communicate with the host file >system. You would use a program to convert a CP/M COM program on the host to >an Intel HEX file which is then read into the CP/M environment through the >trap mechanism. The reverse would happen except that the "write" does not >convert it to Intel HEX -- it deposits it as a CP/M COM file. There are programs for CP/M to handel hexfiles: LOAD creates a com file from hex (CP/M standard tool) DDT/SID/ZSID can do the same. Unload is a PD program (small) that can create an intel hexfile from a .com file (the reverse of load). Those two with PIP file.foo=CON: [or rdr:] can move files in or out on a serial port. There are many ways of doing this. Allison >The source is on one of the disk images. There's no reason why it couldn't >be enhanced to move entire disk images instead of just files, and since it's >a CP/M utility it should work on any CP/M system. Unfortunately I don't have >enough experience in programming for CP/M, nor the time right now, to do it. > >Rich > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:02 AM >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Archiving Software > >M H Stein wrote: >> Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging >program >> seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to >> archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible >and >> downloadable/emailable? > >ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly > >done a brilliant job when I've tried it. > >What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to > >use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows >version >is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways >to >reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) > >Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a >comment >field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record >where >bad spots were on the original disk. > >> For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, >> Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for >> someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, >> a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted > >> back to a CP/M format disk somehow. > >Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop >someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, >then >spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original >hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. > >Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern >media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the >future >to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! > >> So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? > >Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM >data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own >collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no >hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. > >I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS to > >the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any >processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer >filenames etc.). > >I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I >suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but >I'm >happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the >Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that >ImageDisk >won't even run under DOSEMU though. > > >cheers > >Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 16 07:54:09 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:54:09 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRL001EMFXQ9U70@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Archiving Software > From: "Cini, Richard" > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:34:02 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >The method (using PIP and a COM port) works well for physical machines. We >wrote these utilities for the Altair32 to talk directly to the host >hardware. > >Point being that someone could write a generic CP/M utility which can dump a >disk image over a COM port instead of only a file. I like ADT because it has >the nifty ability to download the transfer program to the Apple using >console redirection...ADT basically stuffs a monitor script into the Apple >over the serial connection. CP/M probably has the same ability...I don't >know. How about MDM7? I've used that inside Dave's Horizon Sim with good success. The MDM7 I used was allready setup for a NS* IO and the Sim maps NS* IO to COM ports. There are two different issues here: * Transfering CP/M files and MDM7 (XMDM, Kermit ...) do that well. The Sim side issues vary depening on how IO is simulated. For example MyZ80 transfering CP/M files is trivial as there is a utility inside the emulated CPM for reading and writing outside to DOS filesystem. Others are not as flexible. * booting a system that has a unique NON-PC compatable format. This varies all over the map depending on target system. Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Allison >Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:25 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: Archiving Software > >> >>Subject: RE: Archiving Software >> From: "Cini, Richard" >> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:16:24 -0500 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> >> >>For archiving MSDOS disks I use ZIP files unless the disk is bootable, in >>which case I use readimg/writimg (Microsoft utilities). >> >>For cross-platform archiving, the only thing I've done so far is on the >>Apple, using ADT. >> >>However, ADT brings-up an idea. In my Altair emulator, we have a CP/M >>utility on one of the disk images which allows you to transfer files from >>the host to the emulator space and back (read.com and write.com I think). >>The program uses an invalid opcode trap to communicate with the host file >>system. You would use a program to convert a CP/M COM program on the host >to >>an Intel HEX file which is then read into the CP/M environment through the >>trap mechanism. The reverse would happen except that the "write" does not >>convert it to Intel HEX -- it deposits it as a CP/M COM file. > >There are programs for CP/M to handel hexfiles: > >LOAD creates a com file from hex (CP/M standard tool) >DDT/SID/ZSID can do the same. > >Unload is a PD program (small) that can create an intel hexfile from >a .com file (the reverse of load). > >Those two with PIP file.foo=CON: [or rdr:] can move files in or out >on a serial port. > >There are many ways of doing this. > >Allison > >>The source is on one of the disk images. There's no reason why it couldn't >>be enhanced to move entire disk images instead of just files, and since >it's >>a CP/M utility it should work on any CP/M system. Unfortunately I don't >have >>enough experience in programming for CP/M, nor the time right now, to do >it. >> >>Rich >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>On Behalf Of Jules Richardson >>Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:02 AM >>To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: Archiving Software >> >>M H Stein wrote: >>> Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging >>program >>> seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to >>> archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as >possible >>and >>> downloadable/emailable? >> >>ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's >certainly >> >>done a brilliant job when I've tried it. >> >>What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* >to >> >>use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows >>version >>is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways >>to >>reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) >> >>Other than that it seems a viable tool to use - the file format has a >>comment >>field of unlimited length for any useful metadata, and is able to record >>where >>bad spots were on the original disk. >> >>> For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, >>> Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for > >>> someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, >>> a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be >copied/converted >> >>> back to a CP/M format disk somehow. >> >>Well the ImageDisk file format's public - I suppose there's nothing to stop > >>someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, >>then >>spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original >>hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. >> >>Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern >>media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the >>future >>to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! >> >>> So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? >> >>Burying heads in sand I suspect :) I've finally got a PC that'll handle FM >>data (I think it was the 7th one I tried!), so I can start imaging my own >>collection. Luckily I just have soft-sectored MFM/FM disks here; no >>hard-sectored stuff, GCR encoded media etc. >> >>I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can just use DOS >to >> >>the actual reading/writing, then Linux for everything else (archival, any >>processing of the files, taking advantage of being able to use longer >>filenames etc.). >> >>I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run ImageDisk, but I >>suspect it won't allow the necessary direct access to the hardware... but >>I'm >>happy to dedicate a box to disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the > >>Linux floppy subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that >>ImageDisk >>won't even run under DOSEMU though. >> >> >>cheers >> >>Jules From geraldm at iprimus.com.au Fri Dec 16 06:52:41 2005 From: geraldm at iprimus.com.au (Gerald Molenkamp) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:52:41 +1100 Subject: Strange PCBs found at hamfest - GPIB? Message-ID: <001e01c6023f$9a185940$0158a8c0@geraldm1> Hi Jim, I read your message on the control of a Tek2712 via GPIB. I have a Tek2712 myself with no serial interface, however I do have a GPIB. I also have a Ethernet to GPIB interface and are able to control my HP 53131 counter via GPIB, so I know it all works fine. I am struggling to find appropriate drivers or basic control s/w that allows me to connect the Tek2712 to the GPIB I/F. My aim is to simply print, however any additional features would help. Are you able to provide more detail of how you went about controlling your Tek2712 via GPIB? Regards Gerald Molenkamp Melbourne Australia From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Dec 16 08:37:51 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:37:51 +0100 Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: References: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> Am 14 Dec 2005 16:11 meinte Gary Sparkes: > On 12/14/05 3:53 PM, "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Gary Sparkes once stated: > >> I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a small project > >> OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is there any decent resource > >> for information on dos compatability and how to achieve it, or is it left as > >> a reverse engineering exercise for 'the reader' ? :) > > How compatable? If you go by the published API for MS-DOS 1.x, then it > > should be pretty easy, but if by "compatable" you mean "run arbitrary MS-DOS > > programs, especially those from Microsoft" you may have your work cut out > > for you. You may want to check out http://www.freedos.org/. > I was thinking of going up compatability in versions, such as going from 1.x > to 2.x etc, mainly because, well, I'm very, very bored :) Well, that's like building two OSes, since 2 has been realy something ifferent, aimed at bridgeing the gap from XPM to Xenix. > And of course, it'd be IBM PC compatable stuff, not the odd machine MS-DOS > running thingies That's not the question. MS/PC Dos is a rather machine independent OS. as long as you a real mode x86 CPU, DOS itself is compatible across virtualy all machines. Dos uses for all its functionality BIOS calls and got no specialities to bind it to IBM-PC Hardware. Machine specific stuff was all in the BIOS - including lots of additional functionality for non-IBM machinery. So, straight DOS programms could be easy portet, if DOS was present. For incompatibilities there where two major resons: a) The Application did use Hardware and or BIOS specific functions, like writing directly to screen buffers, doing DMA or fiddling with the keyboard. b) The Application used inofficial/not public documentated MS-DOS calls, like $52 to get the DDA, the root of all things evil (and subsequent the memory chain, or the SFT (*1)). Most 'incompatible' application fall into cathegory a), except for lots of MS Programms, which belong to cat b). To my understanding this was what Sean ment with compatible beyond the published API. A real good book to stat of would be: Arne Sch"apers - DOS 5 f"ur Programmierer. I got no idea if there ever was an englisch edition, but it's eventualy the best analysis and documentation of DOS ever made. He covers not only DOS 2-5 but also DR-DOS and all similarities and differences. Think of it as a documented, debugged and extended version of Andrew Schulman (et.al) - Undocumented DOS Both books are from Addison-Wesley, so If you can't find Arnes, Undocumented DOS is a good start anyway. The other real helpful book would be The MS-DOS Enzyclopedia from MS-Press Good book, but of course only a compilation of the 'official' material. only about 20% cover the DOS API, the rest is somewhat like the mother of all DOS manuals. ~1500 pages in one book. If you need a DOS-manual, try to get this book. It even got a small entertaining history secttion. Originaly it was HUGE a hard cover book for a unpayable price (I remember 500+ Mark). Another very important book might be Gunter Born - Dateiformate - Die Referenz Again, German, and I don't know about a similar English book. It lists everything from Lotus to Word, from Autocad to GEM. Quite helpful - did I mention that I love to have information as paper in front of me? Oh, and last but not least, keep Ralf Browns IntList at hand when starting the project, Sos is more than just INT 21. Gruss H. *1 - I'm not completely shure it $52 was already present in DOS 1.0, but it seams to make sense, especialy since funcions like $50/51 (GET/SET PSP) or $53 (TRANSLATE BPB) are in the same range and should have been already present in 1.0 to my understanding. Fits also with the idea of starting 'internal' functions at such a number (80 decimal) -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Dec 16 08:43:02 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:43:02 +0100 Subject: Fun Projects (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0512151311r40b69607r310bad4aaf655ddc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43A2E086.11849.7BC31C28@localhost> Am 15 Dec 2005 16:22 meinte Gary Sparkes: > On 12/15/05 4:11 PM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > > There are already several DOS clones out there, some free, some not. > > Why not go help out the folk working on FreeDOS or the DR-DOS > > Enhancement Project instead? > But, that's not the point! I'm doing this to play around and improve my > coding skills by doing low level stuff I normally otherwise wouldn't do, > just a fun project :) Well, if it's about fun and DOS, the first thing that comes to my mind is imporveing (or redoing) the CP/M wraper for V20/V30 Systems. Tte other one would be to get finaly GEM backportet to CP/M (with GSX).. Or if I could move my fat ass and finaly start to port my 16 Bit x86 multitasking environment to a 32 or 64 Bit platform ... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 16 08:42:13 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:42:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: 30 years of personal computer... Message-ID: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> 30 year of personal computer market share figures: http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ Cheers, Bryan From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 16 04:35:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:35:58 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051216144247.RUR3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Point being that someone could write a generic CP/M utility which can dump a > disk image over a COM port instead of only a file. I like ADT because it has > the nifty ability to download the transfer program to the Apple using > console redirection...ADT basically stuffs a monitor script into the Apple > over the serial connection. CP/M probably has the same ability...I don't > know. I've already written this, it's called CPT (CPm Transfer) and it consists of a little PC utility and a CPM client which can read/write an enture disk image through the COM port. The PC program uses the client to read the CP/M system tables etc. to determine the disk layout. Works quite well - I used it to backup a number of CP/M systems before I wrote ImageDisk - however it's not as simple as you might think - there is no guarantee that the CP/M disk handler can read/write the system tracks (which are often in a different format) - Basically, CP/M does not provide any standardized way to read/write the system tracks (this is normally done by platform specific programs). I've provided a number of options to handle the common cases, however there are not Guarantees - where it's usable, ImageDisk is a better solution. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Fri Dec 16 09:09:47 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:09:47 -0500 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> On Sep 27, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Allison wrote: >>> I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try >>> here. These >>> are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >>> Apollo 400 >>> Apollo 715s/50 >>> Apollo 715t/50 >>> (2) Apollo 715/64 >>> Apollo 400 FYI. I picked these up yesterday. I'll play with them over the weekend and see what condition they're in. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Dec 16 09:43:05 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:43:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Information requested on Vector Graphics machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Gord; Flashback to this eMail: On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 gtulloch at shaw.ca wrote: > boards. With the right ROM the ZCB works with a serial terminal as well, I > have some images that might work. I'm running on the theory that the RS232 port hanging off the ZCB is probably a console port, but so far have not been able to get anything out of it useful. When I fire the machine up, I sometimes get a "." sent to the port, but I can't tell if that's garbage or not. Are you famaliar at all with what settings I might try? (When I think about it, I fiddled speeds, but not parity/stop bits/word length). Thanks Gord; Any input useful :) JP From bob at jfcl.com Fri Dec 16 10:23:49 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:23:49 -0800 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> Message-ID: <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Speaking of FreeDOS and DR DOS, is there also a "Free" BIOS? Yes, I know the BIOS is hardware specific, but most PC compatible platforms are the pretty much the same. Even if they aren't, it's nice to have a starting point. Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 6:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) > > > Am 14 Dec 2005 16:11 meinte Gary Sparkes: > > On 12/14/05 3:53 PM, "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" > > > wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great Gary Sparkes once stated: > > > >> I'm rather bored, so I thought I might try and hack together a > > >> small project OS compatable with at least DOS 1.x or similar, is > > >> there any decent resource for information on dos > compatability and > > >> how to achieve it, or is it left as a reverse > engineering exercise > > >> for 'the reader' ? :) > > > > How compatable? If you go by the published API for MS-DOS 1.x, > > > then it should be pretty easy, but if by "compatable" you > mean "run > > > arbitrary MS-DOS programs, especially those from > Microsoft" you may > > > have your work cut out for you. You may want to check out > > > http://www.freedos.org/. > > > I was thinking of going up compatability in versions, such as going > > from 1.x to 2.x etc, mainly because, well, I'm very, very bored :) > > Well, that's like building two OSes, since 2 has been realy > something ifferent, aimed at bridgeing the gap from XPM to Xenix. > > > And of course, it'd be IBM PC compatable stuff, not the odd machine > > MS-DOS running thingies > > That's not the question. MS/PC Dos is a rather machine > independent OS. as long as you a real mode x86 CPU, DOS > itself is compatible across virtualy all machines. Dos uses > for all its functionality BIOS calls and got no specialities > to bind it to IBM-PC Hardware. > > Machine specific stuff was all in the BIOS - including lots > of additional functionality for non-IBM machinery. So, > straight DOS programms could be easy portet, if DOS was present. > > For incompatibilities there where two major resons: > > a) The Application did use Hardware and or BIOS specific functions, > like writing directly to screen buffers, doing DMA or fiddling > with the keyboard. > > b) The Application used inofficial/not public documentated MS-DOS > calls, like $52 to get the DDA, the root of all things evil > (and subsequent the memory chain, or the SFT (*1)). > > Most 'incompatible' application fall into cathegory a), > except for lots of MS Programms, which belong to cat b). To > my understanding this was what Sean ment with compatible > beyond the published API. > > A real good book to stat of would be: > > Arne Sch"apers - DOS 5 f"ur Programmierer. > > I got no idea if there ever was an englisch edition, but it's > eventualy the best analysis and documentation of DOS ever > made. He covers not only DOS 2-5 but also DR-DOS and all > similarities and differences. Think of it as a documented, > debugged and extended version of > > Andrew Schulman (et.al) - Undocumented DOS > > Both books are from Addison-Wesley, so If you can't find > Arnes, Undocumented DOS is a good start anyway. The other > real helpful book would be > > The MS-DOS Enzyclopedia from MS-Press > > Good book, but of course only a compilation of the 'official' > material. only about 20% cover the DOS API, the rest is > somewhat like the mother of all DOS manuals. ~1500 pages in > one book. If you need a DOS-manual, try to get this book. It > even got a small entertaining history secttion. Originaly it > was HUGE a hard cover book for a unpayable price (I remember > 500+ Mark). > > Another very important book might be > > Gunter Born - Dateiformate - Die Referenz > > Again, German, and I don't know about a similar English book. > It lists everything from Lotus to Word, from Autocad to GEM. > > Quite helpful - did I mention that I love to have information > as paper in front of me? > > Oh, and last but not least, keep Ralf Browns IntList at hand > when starting the project, Sos is more than just INT 21. > > Gruss > H. > > > *1 - I'm not completely shure it $52 was already present in DOS 1.0, > but it seams to make sense, especialy since funcions like $50/51 > (GET/SET PSP) or $53 (TRANSLATE BPB) are in the same range and > should have been already present in 1.0 to my understanding. > Fits also with the idea of starting 'internal' functions at > such a number (80 decimal) > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 16 10:32:41 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:32:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Dec 16, 5 09:42:13 am" Message-ID: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> > 30 year of personal computer market share figures: > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) I wonder where they got the tidbit that IBM was planning to rebadge the Atari 800 as their "personal computer" originally. Is that true?? I'm happy to see a history, even a relatively vapid (though it seems quite factual) one, that still acknowledges Atari and Commodore. Despite being a Mac user now, with some of the retrospectives out there you'd figure that IBM and Apple were the only companies that *ever* made computers. The sales graphs are fascinating and I'm personally pleased to see how much of that during the 80s was the C64. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 10% of computer users [use] Mac ... the top 10 percent. -- Douglas Adams --- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:37:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:37:54 +0000 Subject: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > 30 year of personal computer market share figures: > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ Did these guys get /.ed? All I get is an advertising/portal page. -ethan From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 16 10:44:37 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:44:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051216164437.29AB2580D2@mail.wordstock.com> > > > 30 year of personal computer market share figures: > > > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > > ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) > Thanks for the spell check! :) Fixed clicky link: http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > I wonder where they got the tidbit that IBM was planning to rebadge the > Atari 800 as their "personal computer" originally. Is that true?? > > I'm happy to see a history, even a relatively vapid (though it seems > quite factual) one, that still acknowledges Atari and Commodore. Despite > being a Mac user now, with some of the retrospectives out there you'd > figure that IBM and Apple were the only companies that *ever* made computers. > > The sales graphs are fascinating and I'm personally pleased to see how > much of that during the 80s was the C64. :) > I like the last graph that has a nice spike of C64 sales... :D Cheers, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 10:48:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:48:36 +0000 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > On Sep 27, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Allison wrote: > >>>> I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try >>>> here. These >>>> are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >>>> Apollo 400 >>>> Apollo 715s/50 >>>> Apollo 715t/50 >>>> (2) Apollo 715/64 >>>> Apollo 400 > > FYI. I picked these up yesterday. I'll play with them over the weekend > and see what condition they're in. I missed the original post... it'd be interesting to hear about the 400 machines and whether there's anything unusual about them hardware-wise, or if there's anything nice on the disks. I think the 715's are just PA-RISC boxes though rather than proper Apollos, so they're nowhere near as interesting! :) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 10:51:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:51:28 +0000 Subject: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> References: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > 30 year of personal computer market share figures: > > > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > > ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) Ah... thanks for pointing that out - some typo-squatter has the other domain. -ethan From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 16 10:49:20 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:49:20 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1134751760.43a2f01074b13@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Jim Leonard : > This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC 5150-class > machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like to put to use, but all I > have for this machine is a Western Digital MFM controller. Future Domain 8xx series. Some are bootable, some are not .. do a wee bit of research first. Some also have non-standard connectors on the back, so they should be avoided. These are known to work on a PCjr with an ISA bus adapter. (Software only - I've not fixed the ROM extension to give it native BIOS support on the Jr.) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 11:01:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:01:32 +0000 Subject: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> References: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43A2F2EC.3010403@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> 30 year of personal computer market share figures: >> >> http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > > ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) > > I wonder where they got the tidbit that IBM was planning to rebadge the > Atari 800 as their "personal computer" originally. Is that true?? > > I'm happy to see a history, even a relatively vapid (though it seems > quite factual) one, that still acknowledges Atari and Commodore. Despite > being a Mac user now, with some of the retrospectives out there you'd > figure that IBM and Apple were the only companies that *ever* made computers. It'd be nice to see that article written from a global perspective. It's a little irritating when people write "this is the way it was" accounts of history when what they're actually doing is writing down "this is the way it was in a single country" - it tends to come across as though none of the other countries in the world made any contribution to the evolution of computing. Us vintage enthusiasts know that isn't true and that innovation came from all over, but the wider audience who read the article may not appreciate it. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 11:09:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:09:02 +0000 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS In-Reply-To: <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <43A2F4AE.4020808@yahoo.co.uk> Robert Armstrong wrote: > Speaking of FreeDOS and DR DOS, is there also a "Free" BIOS? > > Yes, I know the BIOS is hardware specific, but most PC compatible > platforms are the pretty much the same. Even if they aren't, it's nice to > have a starting point. Sort of. Tied to running Linux though, rather than being a free implementation that can also allow other OSes to run. Still, booting your PC to a full multitasking OS in a couple of seconds is still pretty nifty. Afraid I don't have bookmarks handy (I read about all of this in passing a few months ago), but a google for "Linux BIOS" should turn up some useful links. I seem to remember that when you get down to it, it's surprising how many tweaks need to be made in order to support a reasonable range of motherboards. cheers Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Dec 16 11:22:18 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:22:18 +0100 Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> References: Message-ID: <43A305DA.25470.7C54ECC5@localhost> Am 16 Dec 2005 15:37 meinte Hans Franke: > The other real helpful book would be > The MS-DOS Enzyclopedia from MS-Press > Good book, but of course only a compilation of the 'official' > material. only about 20% cover the DOS API, the rest is > somewhat like the mother of all DOS manuals. ~1500 pages in > one book. If you need a DOS-manual, try to get this book. It > even got a small entertaining history secttion. Originaly it > was HUGE a hard cover book for a unpayable price (I remember > 500+ Mark). A friend just tried to convince me that I again just straight transliterated from German, and the word in question (unpayable) should be rather 'unafordable' or 'way to expensive', but the story goes different. I've seen that book a first in a large bookstore, here in Munich, at said price, and I tried several times to convince myself and buy it, bu I am not able to hand out so much money for a MS book. I couldn't. What a relive when the soft cover came arrounde about one or two years later :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Dec 16 11:22:18 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:22:18 +0100 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> Message-ID: <43A305DA.9871.7C54EBDB@localhost> Am 16 Dec 2005 8:23 meinte Robert Armstrong: > Speaking of FreeDOS and DR DOS, is there also a "Free" BIOS? > Yes, I know the BIOS is hardware specific, but most PC compatible > platforms are the pretty much the same. Even if they aren't, it's nice to > have a starting point. Well Bob, there is, and there isn't. The name FreeBIOS is of course taken by a project, wich seams to have stalled about 5 years ago, at least according to the last version I could find at sourceforge http://sourceforge.net/projects/freebios/ But there's OpenBIOS: http://www.openbios.info/ While FreeBIOS was aimed as a replacement for a genuine x86 BIOS, there's also OpenBIOS whose goal is even more far fetched by aiming to be CPU independent (!) To reach this, some real old knowledge has been dug out: The BIOS is written in Forth - now called FCode and supplied with a C to FCode compiler for peole who speak only a single letter (aka non literate programming :) OpenBIOS is quite active and already in a state that can be used for most ordinary systems. Now, a complete different aproach here is LinuxBIOS http://www.linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page The idea is to just setup the very minimalistic needed things like Memory, then unpack a Linux kernal into RAM and let the Linux do the further hardware initializaetion and have it bootup whatever system should finaly be bootet. To my understanding the project diverted a bit from it's original course by adding more and more init-code to the added (non Linux) code, but it's still worth a look. Results on x86 hardware (386+) is quite inplessive. On the other hand it's (as often with linux) a rather x86 specific thing. Personaly I would rather go with OpenBIOS. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bob at jfcl.com Fri Dec 16 11:26:28 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:26:28 -0800 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <43A305DA.9871.7C54EBDB@localhost> Message-ID: <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Hi Hans, > http://sourceforge.net/projects/freebios/ This is probably the best bet for me - I was thinking of something that could run FreeDOS on a PC/XT type platform. No chipsets; no fancy CPUs... > The BIOS is written in Forth A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any flame wars, but I'm just not comfortable with that :-) > Now, a complete different aproach here is LinuxBIOS Which, I assume, is unable to run FreeDOS or, indeed, anything except Linux ... Thanks, Bob From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 16 11:41:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:41:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <200512161741.JAA15005@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "M H Stein" > >Well, I didn't get any replies to my question about how best to archive >Cromemco software, so let me ask again in broader terms: > >Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program >seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to >archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and >downloadable/emailable? > >For example, I have original distribution diskettes for CP/M Wordstar, >Supercalc, etc. on 8" disks. Obviously images wouldn't be very useful for >someone with only 5" drives or no 8" drive on the PC; on the other hand, >a DOS ZIP file of the files on that disk would have to be copied/converted >back to a CP/M format disk somehow. > >So, how are the rest of you dealing with this? > > Hi In the past when I've needed a file from an image, I've thrown together a file extraction program to get the file of the image. I usually also write something to put an file back to an image. Often the write back of a file is as simple as I can make it. I usually write to an formatted image with no other files. This makes allocation easy. For CP/M I've only copied files from archives and not images. I've then transferred the files serially to my IMSAI. If it is a binary, I convert to HEX and then use the debugger to write it to a file. For CP/M-8000, I've written code to extract from a 8 inch image and then write these files to 5-1/4 images for the Olivetti M20. In this case, I've always build a new image with complete files for that image and not added files to a disk with files on it. Again, this is the easiest way to handle these. I've seen a few utilities on the web to read and write files to images but I've never used or needed any of these. I an usually interested in learning that particular systems file format and find the best way to learn it is to write something to transfer files. Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 12:02:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:02:03 -0600 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A3011B.60805@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > I suspect that ImageDisk won't even run under DOSEMU though. Don't be sure sure; I worked with Dave a few months back getting it running nicely on a stock IBM PC 5150. If it can run on that, surely it can run under DOSEMU, right? I admit I haven't tried it on a PCjr, but then again I wouldn't hold Dave responsible if it didn't work ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:06:58 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:06:58 -0500 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <43A305DA.9871.7C54EBDB@localhost> <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Robert Armstrong wrote: > Hi Hans, > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/freebios/ > > This is probably the best bet for me - I was thinking of something that > could run FreeDOS on a PC/XT type platform. No chipsets; no fancy CPUs... > > > The BIOS is written in Forth > > A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any flame wars, > but I'm just not comfortable with that :-) I think the SUN computers have BIOS written in forth.. but I could be wrong. vax, 9000 > > > Now, a complete different aproach here is LinuxBIOS > > Which, I assume, is unable to run FreeDOS or, indeed, anything except > Linux ... > > Thanks, > Bob > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 12:08:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:08:41 -0800 Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> References: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> Message-ID: <200512161008410443.2D393312@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 3:37 PM Hans Franke wrote: >The MS-DOS Enzyclopedia from MS-Press > >Good book, but of course only a compilation of the 'official' >material. only about 20% cover the DOS API, the rest is >somewhat like the mother of all DOS manuals. ~1500 pages in >one book. If you need a DOS-manual, try to get this book. It >even got a small entertaining history secttion. Originaly it >was HUGE a hard cover book for a unpayable price (I remember >500+ Mark). "The Programmer's PC Sourcebook" by Thom Hogan was another big book of tables and charts, and also covered some of Windows 3.0 structures and APIs. The date on mine is 1991, published by Microsoft Press and ISBN is 1-55615-321-X. The big gray hardcover DOS book is less complete, more expensive, has bigger print and looks visually impressive. I don't care much for the Hans-Peter Messmer "PC Hardware" book; he's too gabby and gets some things flat wrong. Another book that still gets used here is the Phoenix "CBIOS for IBM PS/2 Computers and Compatibles" published about 1989 and its companion volumes for PC XT and AT systems. Not much about DOS, but deals with BIOS in wonderful detail. Don't overlook old MSDN CD-ROMs--the earlier ones had lots of good information about DOS-related items. I imagine that the very early ones are pretty hard to find, but if you wanted to know how DOUBLESPACE worked, with all of its API calls, etc., it was the place to find it--at least until the Stacker lawsuit, when it suddenly vanished. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Dec 16 12:14:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:14:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) Message-ID: <200512161814.KAA15804@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Robert Armstrong" >> >> The BIOS is written in Forth > > A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any flame wars, >but I'm just not comfortable with that :-) > Hi Bob This is done more often than one would realize for production machines. Forth has the ability to abstract in most any direction that one desires ( end encourages it ). This means that ( if done properly ) a BIOS written in Forth would have its coding done in such a way that reconfiguring for different hardware and even often for different processors can be done with minimum effort. I've seen coding in such a form that the changes looked more like copying the data specs than actual coding. Of course, for someone that can't read or write in Forth, it may look like a difficult project. JMHO Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 12:17:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:17:01 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 1:01 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC 5150-class >machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like to put to use, but all >I have for this machine is a Western Digital MFM controller. Don't overlook things like PC sound cards--some had SCSI adapters built on for CD drives. Old Bernoilli and scanner adapters are anohter sounce, assuming that you can find drivers for all of these--you need only get as far as ASPI support if you don't want to boot the drives. There are ASPI-interfaced general purpose drivers and utilities to go the rest of the way. A clue to finding drivers is to locate the SCSI LSI chip. The Trantor T130, for example, has an NCR 53C400. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 12:23:04 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:23:04 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Don't overlook things like PC sound cards--some had SCSI adapters built on The problem with this is that the 5150 has 8-bit slots and most of the sound cards with SCSI chips on them (Pro Audio Spectrum, etc.) are 16-bit ISA cards. The most advanced sound cards I've been able to put into my 5150 have been the Sound Blaster Pro 2 (has unknown IDE port on it, works with the CDROM it came with but nothing else) and the Roland SCC-1 (which is an SC-55 on-a-card and has no additional functionality). > for CD drives. Old Bernoilli and scanner adapters are anohter sounce, > assuming that you can find drivers for all of these--you need only get as > far as ASPI support if you don't want to boot the drives. There are > ASPI-interfaced general purpose drivers and utilities to go the rest of the > way. I own a CorelSCSI 8-bit board but without software I can't use it (based on the videotape that came with it, it appears to have been designed for hooking up CDROMs and tape drives anyway) > A clue to finding drivers is to locate the SCSI LSI chip. The Trantor > T130, for example, has an NCR 53C400. And where would I find these fabled drivers? :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 12:28:03 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:28:03 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > the stock MFM's and using SCSI when larger space was needed. > > This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC 5150-class > machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like to put to use, but all I > have for this machine is a Western Digital MFM controller. I had two boards that used 53C90/53C90A chips. I sold them for $5 each on epay. Actually I can make one if I like. The hardware is straightforward. The only piece missing is the BIOS. I can copy the BIOS from the two boards I sold, only if I can find them again. Actually my QBUS SCSI controller is a ISA 8 bit SCSI controller without BIOS. vax, 9000 > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 12:37:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 18:37:47 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A3011B.60805@oldskool.org> References: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> <43A3011B.60805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43A3097B.3050100@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I suspect that ImageDisk won't even run under DOSEMU though. > > Don't be sure sure; I worked with Dave a few months back getting it > running nicely on a stock IBM PC 5150. If it can run on that, surely it > can run under DOSEMU, right? Well it's more that I don't know what restrictions DOSEMU places on programs trying to access the bare hardware - assuming that it allows it at all. ImageDisk seems very competent at doing what it says on the tin - it's just not clear what "the tin" is when running under an emulator ;-) It was just a sudden random thought this morning that it *might* work - or if not, that maybe WINE (emulating a Win95 machine) will let it run. Dave, assuming you're reading this, how does ImageDisk talk to the hard disk (for saving/loading images) and to the screen? Does it use DOS system calls, or BIOS routines, or talk to the bare hardware? If it uses DOS then I suppose that side of things should Just Work (tm). If it uses the BIOS, there's a fair chance it'll work. If it does things by talking direct to the hardware (unlikely for the hard disk side of it, but not so unreasonable for the video I guess) then I'm less sure it'll work... I should be picking up another scrap (as in spare) modern PC tomorrow, so I'll chuck Linux etc. on that and give it all a try in a setup where I'm not going to lose anything important if things go horribly horribly wrong :) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 12:51:51 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:51:51 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512161051510076.2D60B6D4@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 12:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I own a CorelSCSI 8-bit board but without software I can't use it (based >on the >videotape that came with it, it appears to have been designed for hooking >up CDROMs and tape drives anyway) SCSI is pretty much SCSI if you've got ASPI support. I found a Corel LS-2000 driver on Driverguide that comes with ASPI drivers for DOS and Win95; I checked and it also has drivers for the aforementioned Trantor T130 also. http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=33593 >> A clue to finding drivers is to locate the SCSI LSI chip. The Trantor >> T130, for example, has an NCR 53C400. > >And where would I find these fabled drivers? :-) Driverguide--and ask--if the people on this list are like me, I never throw a driver away. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 16 13:24:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:24:13 +0000 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Don't overlook things like PC sound cards--some had SCSI adapters >> built on > > The problem with this is that the 5150 has 8-bit slots and most of the > sound cards with SCSI chips on them (Pro Audio Spectrum, etc.) are > 16-bit ISA cards. Yes, I just looked at the PAS16 manual and it only mentions using a 16 bit slot (I wondered if it was one of those cards that would run in an 8 bit slot in some sort of fashion - I seem to remember some Trident video cards able to do that) Curiously the diagrams in the manual all show an IBM XT case and an 8 bit slot though! I've got fond memories of the PAS16 - it's what got me started using SCSI all over the place years ago rather than IDE; it worked like a charm for disks (just non-bootable) despite only really being intended for CDROM drives. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 13:49:52 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:49:52 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512161149520693.2D95D6E4@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 7:24 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >I've got fond memories of the PAS16 - it's what got me started using SCSI >all >over the place years ago rather than IDE; it worked like a charm for disks >(just non-bootable) despite only really being intended for CDROM drives. There also was a PAS for 8-bit bus which included a Trantor SCSI adapter also. There are drivers for it on Driverguide. Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 13:49:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:49:06 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512161051510076.2D60B6D4@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <200512161051510076.2D60B6D4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A31A32.8030808@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>I own a CorelSCSI 8-bit board but without software I can't use it (based >>on the >>videotape that came with it, it appears to have been designed for hooking >>up CDROMs and tape drives anyway) > > SCSI is pretty much SCSI if you've got ASPI support. I found a Corel > LS-2000 driver on Driverguide that comes with ASPI drivers for DOS and > Win95; I checked and it also has drivers for the aforementioned Trantor > T130 also. > > http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=33593 Thanks, I'll check this out. But once I have the ASPI layer set up, what's next? Will it just "show up" if I run FDISK or are additional steps necessary? (Sorry for these admittedly newbie questions but I've never worked with SCSI in DOS before, only MFM/RLL/ESDI/IDE). > Driverguide--and ask--if the people on this list are like me, I never throw > a driver away. I'm the same way. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 13:51:03 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:51:03 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A31AA7.1040403@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > bit slot (I wondered if it was one of those cards that would run in an 8 > bit slot in some sort of fashion - I seem to remember some Trident video > cards able to do that) And couldn't some 3COM TP/RJ45 combo 16-bit 'net cards do that too? I have a few, maybe I should just pop one in and try it... What's the worst that could happen? (famous last words) > I've got fond memories of the PAS16 - it's what got me started using > SCSI all over the place years ago rather than IDE; it worked like a > charm for disks (just non-bootable) despite only really being intended > for CDROM drives. I will remember that and probably use later on in my tinerking, thanks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 16 13:52:21 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:52:21 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512161149520693.2D95D6E4@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> <200512161149520693.2D95D6E4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A31AF5.6050705@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There also was a PAS for 8-bit bus which included a Trantor SCSI adapter > also. There are drivers for it on Driverguide. The Pro Audio Spectrum + (Plus) I believe... those are quite uncommon, unfortunately. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Dec 16 13:21:35 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:21:35 +0000 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:06:58 EST." Message-ID: <200512161921.TAA13339@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "9000 VAX" said: > > I think the SUN computers have BIOS written in forth.. but I could be wrong. You're thinking of Open Firmware - a superset of ANS-Standard Forth used for detecting and setting up the hardware etc. on Sun, Apple and some IBM machines. It can be accessed from the console as well, allowing you to probe and set up hardware manually should you need to, or as a normal Forth of course... Apple are apparently dropping it from the upcoming Intel machines - pity. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ygehrich at yahoo.com Fri Dec 16 14:50:07 2005 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:50:07 -0500 Subject: *** Re: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> References: <20051216144213.C8916580D9@mail.wordstock.com> <200512161632.IAA20598@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20051216154927.03d2fc10@yahoo.com> You must be seeing a different web page than I do when I click on the link. How do I find these graphs? At 11:32 AM 12/16/2005, you wrote: > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > >ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) > >I wonder where they got the tidbit that IBM was planning to rebadge the >Atari 800 as their "personal computer" originally. Is that true?? > >I'm happy to see a history, even a relatively vapid (though it seems >quite factual) one, that still acknowledges Atari and Commodore. Despite >being a Mac user now, with some of the retrospectives out there you'd >figure that IBM and Apple were the only companies that *ever* made computers. > >The sales graphs are fascinating and I'm personally pleased to see how >much of that during the 80s was the C64. :) From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 16 15:07:08 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:07:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: *** Re: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20051216154927.03d2fc10@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051216210708.96E1A58103@mail.wordstock.com> > > You must be seeing a different web page than I do when I click on the link. > > How do I find these graphs? > The link should have been: http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ Sorry bout that.... Cheers, Bryan > At 11:32 AM 12/16/2005, you wrote: > > > http://arstechnia.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > > > >ITYM "arstechnica" (note second C) ;) > > > >I wonder where they got the tidbit that IBM was planning to rebadge the > >Atari 800 as their "personal computer" originally. Is that true?? > > > >I'm happy to see a history, even a relatively vapid (though it seems > >quite factual) one, that still acknowledges Atari and Commodore. Despite > >being a Mac user now, with some of the retrospectives out there you'd > >figure that IBM and Apple were the only companies that *ever* made computers. > > > >The sales graphs are fascinating and I'm personally pleased to see how > >much of that during the 80s was the C64. :) > From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 16 11:15:41 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:15:41 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A3097B.3050100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A3011B.60805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Dave, assuming you're reading this, how does ImageDisk talk to the hard disk > (for saving/loading images) and to the screen? Does it use DOS system calls, > or BIOS routines, or talk to the bare hardware? For the FDC - I talk directly to the hardware, including the DMA chip - but I let the BIOS handle the FDC interrupt (the handler just sets a flag indicating that the current DMA operation if finished). For the video, I talk directly to the video memory for individual character writes, scrolling and for opening/closing text windows, however I use an INT-10h BIOS call to position the cursor. (This is the text windowing library which is supplied with the library for my Micro-C/PC compiler, and I use it for "all kinds of stuff", and have never had a problem running under any version of winblows or DOSemu. The any file access, it's via standard INT-21h DOS services. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 15:23:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:23:16 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A31A32.8030808@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <200512161051510076.2D60B6D4@10.0.0.252> <43A31A32.8030808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512161323160100.2DEB5733@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 1:49 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Thanks, I'll check this out. But once I have the ASPI layer set up, >what's >next? Will it just "show up" if I run FDISK or are additional steps >necessary? > >(Sorry for these admittedly newbie questions but I've never worked with >SCSI in >DOS before, only MFM/RLL/ESDI/IDE). ASPI is easy--one of the good standards that came out of DOS--there's a Windows version of it also (16 and 32 bit). All you need is the correct ASPI device-specific driver in addition to the ASPI driver for your card. So, for a disk drive, it's going to be named something like ASPIDISK.SYS. Add this after the ASPI driver in your CONFIG.SYS and you're off and running--there may be other utilities included for managing an ASPI-driven SCSI disk drive. I haven't checked lately, but Adaptec included some fairly generic device-related drivers and utilities in their DOS driver kit (which was free for downloading). It's a layered approach. So, for example, to attach a SCSI hard drive to a PC using the Trantor/Adaptec T358 parallel port-to-SCSI "fat cable", my config sys would contain the following: DEVICE=MA358.SYS DEVICE=ASPIDISK.SYS There was a competitor to ASPI, called CAM, for Common Access Manager. It was similar to ASPI but somewhat more complex, some cards (Future Domain was one) used that in place of, or in addition to ASPI. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 16 16:41:32 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:41:32 -0600 Subject: S-100 Memory board Message-ID: <43A3429C.4080202@mdrconsult.com> Folks, I have an S-100 RAM board made by Measurement Systems and Controls, Inc. Model No. DMB6400. It came in the Cromemco system I'm cleaning up, so I ass-ume that the DIP switches are correctly set for the Z-2D's current configuration, but I'd still like to know more about it. Does anyone have the manual for this thing? Doc From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 16 16:58:17 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:58:17 -0000 (GMT) Subject: *** Re: 30 years of personal computer... In-Reply-To: <20051216210708.96E1A58103@mail.wordstock.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20051216154927.03d2fc10@yahoo.com> <20051216210708.96E1A58103@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1449.192.168.0.2.1134773897.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 16, 2005 9:07 pm, Bryan Pope said: > > The link should have been: > > http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/total-share.ars/ > > Sorry bout that.... There's another hour of my life gone :o) I'm currently investigating Zeta 1.0 purely because I remember installing BeOS PE 5.0 on my work's laptop when it was released and thinking it was fantastic but lacking real world (for me) apps. It's not that expensive, I may investigate more..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 16 17:15:23 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:15:23 -0700 Subject: Fwd: PET stuff to rescue in Sweden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 22:21:40 +0100 From: Anders Carlsson To: cbm-hackers at ling.gu.se Message-ID: Reply-To: cbm-hackers at ling.gu.se Subject: PET stuff to rescue Hello. While this is not a buy and sale list, I wish to make an exception. Tonight, I visited a man who used to be a Commodore reseller as well as having his own program development company, working towards Datatronic, the Swedish Commodore agent during 197x-1985. I went to his house in hunt for VIC-20 and perhaps C64 items, and found a bunch of stuff, described more in detail on the Denial web forum. However, his basement and garage are crowded with PET stuff. Computers like 3032, 8032-SK, 600, 700 and perhaps more. He needed some space in the garage, and has already thrown away a lot of CBM 600/700 series! Disk drives like dual 3040, 8050, 8250, 8050LP and I don't know all the model numbers, as I have never been much into the PET/IEEE series. Hard disks like 9060 and 9090 (or did I misread?). Some 3rd party hard drives called Corvux or something like that. No IEC based (1541 or newer) disk drives though. Printers. Monitors. Lots of business software, floppies a mass. Docs. PET printer switches. Modems. Everything was so tightly piled, that I don't even know what's behind all those PILES of disk drives. Most are supposed to be OK too. He even has a small selection of motherboards and loose chips, mainly 6502. He also had a few C64 and slightly more loose VIC-20s with assorted items. So the question is, is this stuff worth buying? I realize the shipping would be a lot of money, probably more than he is asking for the items themselves as he said he is happy if they can come to use. I don't have a complete inventory, partly because I didn't know if there is any major interest in this kind of stuff, and because it was close to impossible to inventory it all. He has had this stored like this for 10+ years, and just recently begun to clean out the garage and basement to have room for his new hobbies and grandchildren. I suppose it is no immediate hurry to pick up the stuff, but it shouldn't wait too long. I suppose the best thing is if interested parties answer me privately. At least when it comes to disk drives, I can almost guarantee there is enough for everyone. Best regards -- Anders Carlsson, Sweden Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:26:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:26:46 -0500 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 08:23:49 -0800 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > > Speaking of FreeDOS and DR DOS, is there also a "Free" BIOS? > Depending on what you want the 'freeness' to mean, the assembler source code is published for IBM and Compaq's BIOS on some of their hardware. If your primary purpose is wanting the source code, that should help. Is the Phoenix BIOS source code published anywhere, or was the greatly heralded 'Phoenix reverse engineers the BIOS and frees us from IBM' move really a 'closing of the source?' > Yes, I know the BIOS is hardware specific, but most PC > compatible > platforms are the pretty much the same. Even if they aren't, > it's nice to have a starting point. > Most __early__ PC Compatible platforms are pretty much the same. To the point where XT-clone motherboards even had the same chips placed at the same points on the board across brands. They all made the exact same copies of the IBM originals for a time. I have a few 'XT Clone' motherboard manuals that include the schematic, and have used those schematics to service entire different brands of motherboard. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:31:59 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:31:59 -0500 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <43A305DA.9871.7C54EBDB@localhost> <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <20051216193159.2bb0e815.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:26:28 -0800 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: > Hi Hans, > > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/freebios/ > > This is probably the best bet for me - I was thinking of > something that > could run FreeDOS on a PC/XT type platform. No chipsets; no > fancy CPUs... > > > The BIOS is written in Forth > > A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any > flame wars, > but I'm just not comfortable with that :-) > > > Now, a complete different aproach here is LinuxBIOS > > Which, I assume, is unable to run FreeDOS or, indeed, anything > except > Linux ... > Peeking in from the outside (not having looked at any of these codebases) it sounds like they are bootloader projects with varying degrees of elaborateness. The original BIOS code on x86 hardware was used as recallable routines that the OS would actively hook into, and that programmers (at their peril) could utilize as well. The concept of 'BIOS' in the modern era has degraded to the bootload function. The freenixes and modern Microsoft OSes don't generally touch the BIOS once they are up and running. So a Fourth-based bootloader would be much the same as any other. Load the kernel and get outta the way. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 16 18:16:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:16:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <20051216065932.2fb20199.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 16, 5 06:59:32 am Message-ID: > > I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not > > making a copy of it to run it. Unless you're implying the > > process of reading it into memory to execute is copying it. IMHO > > that's a mighty fine line. > > Reading it into memory is copying it. Lawyers make a bunch of > their money due to fine lines. > Does this imply that software in ROM does not need to be copied (in the legal sense) when it's run, but cashing the ROM would consitute a copy? Or does copying each byte in turn into an internal processor register count as a 'copy'.. And what is the difference between copying a program (from disk, say) into a computer's memory, and copying part of a book into _my_ memory (e.g. learning something from a book). For that matter, what is the difference between a computer executing a program and me 'executing' a recipe from a cookery book? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 16 18:20:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:20:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 16, 5 12:01:51 pm Message-ID: > > M H Stein wrote: > > Aside from bootable system disks, for which Dave Dunfield's imaging program > > seems to be a much better solution than Teledisk, what's the best way to > > archive software in a way that makes it as universally useable as possible and > > downloadable/emailable? > > ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly > done a brilliant job when I've tried it. It's a pity the source code hasn't been released. I really don't like using programs that I've not read through... The problem then comes that I am likely to write my own programs to do the same sort of job (as I did for HP calculator LIF disks, albeit before imagedisk was released), and that will add yet another archive format... > > What it now needs IMHO is multi-platform support so that you don't *have* to > use DOS and so that it can be used by more people. (Whether a Windows version > is viable I don't know; certainly Linux seems to give you all sorts of ways to > reach the bare hardware though - presumably *BSD would be the same) At least on this old version of linus (and I hope it's not been taken out), the fdrawcmd Ioctl() allows you to do just about anything the FDC chip is capable of. > someone writing utilities to pull data out of an image at the file level, then > spitting them across a serial link with a terminal app to the original > hardware. Or converting them back into a 5.25" image file, say. > > Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern > media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the future > to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! I would think that any archive format that is complete enough to allow a working version of the disk to be recreated for the original machine would also allow individual files to be extracted given the right tools (if only because recreating the a disk for the original machine, then using it on that machine would allow you to do just that). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 18:44:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:44:09 -0800 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 7:26 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >Is the Phoenix BIOS source code published anywhere, or was the >greatly heralded 'Phoenix reverse engineers the BIOS and frees us >from IBM' move really a 'closing of the source?' I don't know that Phoenix has ever published their BIOS sources for anything--including the video cards. Let's not forget that the Taiwanese government also funded a reverse-engineered XT BIOS for use by their budding PC industry. There was a book out at one time with an entire BIOS written in C. My moldy brain won't identify it precisely, but I seem to recall that Mitch Waite had something to do with it--or maybe not. Annabooks, maybe? Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:42:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:42:34 -0500 Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: <200512161008410443.2D393312@10.0.0.252> References: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <200512161008410443.2D393312@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051216194234.6ec23a4e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:08:41 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/16/2005 at 3:37 PM Hans Franke wrote: > > >The MS-DOS Enzyclopedia from MS-Press > > > >Good book, but of course only a compilation of the 'official' > >material. only about 20% cover the DOS API, the rest is > >somewhat like the mother of all DOS manuals. ~1500 pages in > >one book. If you need a DOS-manual, try to get this book. It > >even got a small entertaining history secttion. Originaly it > >was HUGE a hard cover book for a unpayable price (I remember > >500+ Mark). > > "The Programmer's PC Sourcebook" by Thom Hogan was another big > book of tables and charts, and also covered some of Windows 3.0 > structures and APIs. The date on mine is 1991, published by > Microsoft Press and ISBN is 1-55615-321-X. The big gray > hardcover DOS book is less complete, more expensive, has bigger > print and looks visually impressive. I don't care much for the > Hans-Peter Messmer "PC Hardware" book; he's too gabby and gets > some things flat wrong. > > Another book that still gets used here is the Phoenix "CBIOS for > IBM PS/2 Computers and Compatibles" published about 1989 and its > companion volumes for PC XT and AT systems. Not much about DOS, > but deals with BIOS in wonderful detail. > > Don't overlook old MSDN CD-ROMs--the earlier ones had lots of > good information about DOS-related items. I imagine that the > very early ones are pretty hard to find, but if you wanted to > know how DOUBLESPACE worked, with all of its API calls, etc., it > was the place to find it--at least until the Stacker lawsuit, > when it suddenly vanished. > > Cheers, > Chuck > And the IBM DOS Technical Reference Manuals came out for each version of PC-DOS and have to be considered 'authoritative' (ahem). The PC-DOS Manual, the PC-DOS techref, and the Technical Reference Manuals are a complete 'authoritative' set. I like some of the numerous textbooks that came out in the late 80s through the 90's that covered the hardware and firmware base comprehensively. For a time, engineering professors used the IBM hardware as a laboratory for training students. Mazidi & Mazidi's "The 80x86 IBM PC and Compatible Computers (Volumes I & II) Assembly Language, Design, and Interfacing" Prentice-Hall, 1998, (ISBN 0-13-758509-8) is a big hefty book, and provides one HECK of a thorough exploration of the PC architecture. It's also fairly expensive but I don't regret having bought it. It's not a DOS programming guide, though. It's more keyed toward Assembly Language and digging deep into the hardware. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:44:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:44:48 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051216194448.6c783fd6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:17:01 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/16/2005 at 1:01 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >This reminds me -- what's a good 8-bit SCSI adapter for IBM PC > >5150-class machines? I've got SCSI drives here that I'd like > >to put to use, but all I have for this machine is a Western > >Digital MFM controller. > > Don't overlook things like PC sound cards--some had SCSI > adapters built on for CD drives. Old Bernoilli and scanner > adapters are anohter sounce, assuming that you can find drivers > for all of these--you need only get as far as ASPI support if > you don't want to boot the drives. There are ASPI-interfaced > general purpose drivers and utilities to go the rest of the way. > Were many of the PC Sound cards that had SCSI adapters 8 bit though? Most of the earlier 8-bit sound cards had proprietary CD interfaces and the later ones with IDE are mostly 16-bit. I have a large collection of sound cards on hand, many with CD interfaces, and I don't know if any of them are 8 bit cards. > A clue to finding drivers is to locate the SCSI LSI chip. The > Trantor T130, for example, has an NCR 53C400. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:51:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:51:21 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A31AF5.6050705@oldskool.org> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <43A30608.3080106@oldskool.org> <43A3145D.8080304@yahoo.co.uk> <200512161149520693.2D95D6E4@10.0.0.252> <43A31AF5.6050705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051216195121.24066b78.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:52:21 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There also was a PAS for 8-bit bus which included a Trantor > > SCSI adapter also. There are drivers for it on Driverguide. > > The Pro Audio Spectrum + (Plus) I believe... those are quite > uncommon, unfortunately. Almost all 8-bit cards are increasingly rare with time. I go out of my way these days just to get ahold of ANY 8-bit ISA hardware at all, even 'common' cards are growing 'rare.' The PC and XT machines I got this past week are almost a 'fluke'- machines from the 'back room' of an industrial test lab. You don't find 8088-era hardware anywhere except in rare exceptions anymore. (and when I do, I almost always am the only person who wants it, and get it for virtually free, i.e. the complete PC Convertible I got several years ago at auction for a dollar, and the two Kaypro Portables at the same auction for a buck. And the wonderful Compaq Portable III I recently got) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 16 18:58:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 19:58:19 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <01C601D5.5472A860@MSE_D03> <43A2ACAF.6030307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051216195819.1effbf70.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:01:51 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > I need to make the host machine dual-boot DOS/Linux so I can > just use DOS to the actual reading/writing, then Linux for > everything else (archival, any processing of the files, taking > advantage of being able to use longer filenames etc.). > > I'll give DOSEMU a try under Linux to see if it'll run > ImageDisk, but I suspect it won't allow the necessary direct > access to the hardware... but I'm happy to dedicate a box to > disk imaging, so it doesn't really matter if the Linux floppy > subsystem gets clobbered in the process. I suspect that > ImageDisk won't even run under DOSEMU though. > You can configure DOSEMU (at least last time I tried, which was the kernel 1.2 era) to tunnel through and give deep direct access to the hardware where necessary. Particularly on something like the floppy interface that Linux doesn't integrate and use that much in the first place. You can even compile out the floppy disk interface in the linux kernel entirely to give the 'whole thing' to DOSEMU if you like. I've run my ISA-card EPROM programmer under DOSEMU on a Linux box. > > cheers > > Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 16 19:35:29 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Dec 17, 5 00:16:20 am" Message-ID: <200512170135.RAA11144@floodgap.com> > Does this imply that software in ROM does not need to be copied (in the > legal sense) when it's run, but cashing the ROM would consitute a copy? Memory mapped I/O = not a copy. ;) Okay, I'm just being silly. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't have a spasm. -- Nabiki, "Ranma 1/2" --------------------------------- From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 16 20:48:46 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:48:46 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <01C6028B.7907C5A0@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:20:19 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Archiving Software >> ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly >> done a brilliant job when I've tried it. >It's a pity the source code hasn't been released. I really don't like >using programs that I've not read through... Ahh, there's just no pleasing some people... ;-) >> Getting the data off (and knowing you've captured it all) and onto modern >> media is probably more important than what tools someone may use in the >> future to interpret the data. Providing it's all captured of course! >I would think that any archive format that is complete enough to allow a >working version of the disk to be recreated for the original machine >would also allow individual files to be extracted given the right tools >(if only because recreating the a disk for the original machine, then >using it on that machine would allow you to do just that). >-tony Well, that kind of misses the point of my original question. For a system-specific bootable disk, imaging is probably the only answer since if you can't boot your system you can't load the image into it (although Dave Dunfield has even done this for several systems by loading the bootstrap & system file via the monitor and console port). In the case of systems that can have both 5" and/or 8" FDDs, it probably makes sense to image the 5" version since it's probably easier to temporarily add a 5" drive to an 8" system than adding an 8" drive to the PC. What I was looking for were answers to the following problems: 1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those? 2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them? 3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only have one serial port)? 4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again, what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your System 1 with only a 5" FDD? 5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do with that (serious replies only pls :)? mike From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 16 21:36:06 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:36:06 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051216195121.24066b78.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 12/16/05 7:51 PM, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 13:52:21 -0600 > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Almost all 8-bit cards are increasingly rare with time. I go out > of my way these days just to get ahold of ANY 8-bit ISA hardware > at all, even 'common' cards are growing 'rare.' The PC and XT > machines I got this past week are almost a 'fluke'- machines from > the 'back room' of an industrial test lab. You don't find > 8088-era hardware anywhere except in rare exceptions anymore. > (and when I do, I almost always am the only person who wants it, > and get it for virtually free, i.e. the complete PC Convertible I > got several years ago at auction for a dollar, and the two Kaypro > Portables at the same auction for a buck. And the wonderful > Compaq Portable III I recently got) > Think of this - PC/XT given to a thrift store. They put an asking price on t of $50 !! For 'VINTAGE HARDWARE - 60s/70s EARLY COMPUTER' and refuse to renegotiate. How is a 16 year old supposed to work THAT over? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Dec 16 21:52:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:52:12 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRM009Z6IQ8SXS2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Archiving Software > From: M H Stein > Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:48:46 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >Well, that kind of misses the point of my original question. For a system-specific >bootable disk, imaging is probably the only answer since if you can't boot your >system you can't load the image into it (although Dave Dunfield has even done >this for several systems by loading the bootstrap & system file via the monitor >and console port). In the case of systems that can have both 5" and/or 8" FDDs, >it probably makes sense to image the 5" version since it's probably easier to >temporarily add a 5" drive to an 8" system than adding an 8" drive to the PC. Each case is an individual when the following are true: *Hardsector or non PC producable media. * No monitor or front pannel to interact with. An example is the NS* Horizon system. The only rom is small and JUST enough to boot the OS. The disk is hard sector. Without one of the following as bootable, UCSD Psystem Pascal, NS*dos, CP/M for Horizon your dead. The fix, one of several really. You need about 1k of eprom in the system with a very basic monitor that allows setting memory moving blocks of memory and the like. the CPUB (STD NS* Z80 board) can be populated with the bits needed to use a 2708. Or if available a SBC880 (has ram and rom on it), Compupro CPUZ (with eprom installed). or use a Eprom/Rom card with a monitor program installed to get software console. The basic theme here is being able communicate with the base hardware. Having an IMSAI or ALTAIR front pannel machine works too. > >What I was looking for were answers to the following problems: > >1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those? Serial port to the serial port of a emulator. Serial por tot PROCOMM on PC. Once again if the machine is like the NS* you will have to use the native OS to write a program to upload sectors for assembly as an archive. If the native OS is LIKE CP/M or similar with and editor, assembler and debugger your golden. >2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them? The reverse is harder and very system dependent. First you must have enough rom with a program (See NS* case) to communicate at some level. If you can do that it's possible to hand enter code to do whatever is needed to assemble media. Painful, you bet but I've done it. >3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a > way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only > have one serial port)? Procom or other terminal emulator and a CPM program called unload to make into an ASCII hexfile for upload and transport. This assumes you have a system that can actually read it. If not it's just some media and might as well be blank. >4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting > of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again, > what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your > System 1 with only a 5" FDD? See above cases. >5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which > is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do > with that (serious replies only pls :)? IF you do not have the system and drive that wrote that tape the usefulness is seriously in doubt. It really is close to finding a reel of magtape on the side of the road maybe worse. You MUST have the drive or one of the same type with similar interface or reading it may be just an exercise. The bootable 5" disk you boot it and then write a utility to read it serially to another box (PC whatever). The only one that can help is someone thats in the same space and with similar or same hardware. IF the media matches hardware you have running another OS then sending sectors via serial line is doable ad my even be easy depending on OS. Systems like that you have to know it inside out and side ways. Unless some one can using a similar one write you disks all the code on the internet is mostly meaningless if you can not enter it somehow and execute it. Generally speaking if I can talk to the hardware, and there is at least one serial port the problem can be beaten but usualy as a one off case. Best example I can give is years ago. NEC PDA-80, one of 12 in the country and I had 4 of them, two were operable. NO OS. Front pannel machine with a disk controller for 5,25" floppy that with a few commands could read or write a sector of data to/from it's buffer. Task, put CP/M 2.2 up for the first time. The only system available was intel MDS 8". Note this was before the PC had IBM on the front. The transfer media was paper tape and ASR33 TTY! A program was written and assembled on the MDS to implement a simple bin loader, the loadeer was for hand entry via the front pannel. That loader read the first tape that had a hex loader to load the hex tape with CPM (6.5k of code!). It took six tries to get the CP/M prompt for the first time and two more to get a floppy written with boot tracks. Then I had to get, PIP, STAT, ED, DDT, ASM, LOAD and an improved BIOS source transfered all as hex format paper tape. Pip was first as it is a file transfer program. It can be done, and it's not always easy. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 16 22:05:34 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:05:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051216200454.A35142@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was a book out at one time with an entire BIOS written in C. My > moldy brain won't identify it precisely, but I seem to recall that Mitch > Waite had something to do with it--or maybe not. Annabooks, maybe? Yes, it was Annabooks My copy is not easily accessible right now -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 16 23:38:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:38:58 -0700 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS In-Reply-To: <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A3A472.8070906@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12/16/2005 at 7:26 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > > >>Is the Phoenix BIOS source code published anywhere, or was the >>greatly heralded 'Phoenix reverse engineers the BIOS and frees us >> >> >>from IBM' move really a 'closing of the source?' > >I don't know that Phoenix has ever published their BIOS sources for >anything--including the video cards. > >Let's not forget that the Taiwanese government also funded a >reverse-engineered XT BIOS for use by their budding PC industry. > >There was a book out at one time with an entire BIOS written in C. My >moldy brain won't identify it precisely, but I seem to recall that Mitch >Waite had something to do with it--or maybe not. Annabooks, maybe? > > > Sure that is not cheese! I know at one time you could get a program that would dissasmble the bios and add comments to it. And no I don't have a copy! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 16 23:38:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:38:35 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051216194448.6c783fd6.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <20051216194448.6c783fd6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512162138350338.2FB0CC5D@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 7:44 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >Were many of the PC Sound cards that had SCSI adapters 8 bit >though? Most of the earlier 8-bit sound cards had proprietary CD >interfaces and the later ones with IDE are mostly 16-bit. I have >a large collection of sound cards on hand, many with CD >interfaces, and I don't know if any of them are 8 bit cards. Well, an awful lot of the early CD-ROM drives were SCSI. I had a couple of NEC drives that resembled portable audio CD players more than anything--it's a separatel unit with a hinged top and a wall wart for power--and a SCSI interface. I also had a couple of the early CD-ROM drives that required you to purchase cartridges to put CD's in before inserting them into the drive--they were SCSI also. I don't believe that the early IDE CD-ROM drives were ATAPI, either, so SCSI was the closest thing to anything standard. My first sound card certainly had a SCSI adapter on it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 00:09:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:09:49 -0800 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS In-Reply-To: <43A3A472.8070906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> <007e01c6025d$1952aae0$0401010a@jfcl.com> <20051216192646.364fc878.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512161644090992.2EA341DD@10.0.0.252> <43A3A472.8070906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512162209490115.2FCD63B8@10.0.0.252> On 12/16/2005 at 10:38 PM woodelf wrote: >Sure that is not cheese! I know at one time you could get a program >that would dissasmble >the bios and add comments to it. And no I don't have a copy! My cheese says that that one's easy -- that was Sourcer and I think I still have a copy of it. Cheers, Chuck From johnny.billquist at softjar.se Fri Dec 16 08:02:52 2005 From: johnny.billquist at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:02:52 +0100 Subject: HECnet In-Reply-To: <200512161359.jBGDvFsx076824@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512161359.jBGDvFsx076824@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43A2C90C.8060401@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > FYI, this is now live, anyone interested should probably head over to > the HECnet mailing list. Minor nitpick: it's been live for the last five years or so. But welcome anyway. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From johnny.billquist at softjar.se Fri Dec 16 08:16:55 2005 From: johnny.billquist at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:16:55 +0100 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: <200512161359.jBGDvFsx076824@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512161359.jBGDvFsx076824@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43A2CC57.5060606@softjar.se> From: "Robert Armstrong" > The hobbyist DECnet is actually working - we have now five distinct > locations connected and six or seven machines online 24x7 with a couple > dozen more that are turned on occasionally. Here's a SHOW NETWORK - Actually, there are probably around 15 machines that are on 24x7. (Maybe more.) > You can see a full list of the nodes and descriptions here > > http://www.jfcl.com/Computers/dcn.pdf And as I pointed out to Bob in another mail, that list is not a full list of nodes... :-) > We've been using Johnny's HECnet mailing list to communicate > > http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html > > If you'd like to hook up we'd love to have more nodes! Feel free. As of now, we can connect new nodes and areas either with my bridge program, or Bob can route DECnet over IP with Multiware. Each as its points. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Dec 16 11:36:10 2005 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 17:36:10 +0000 Subject: Motorola MVME machine available. (UK) Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20051216172419.04dd71e0@irrelevant.com> OK, I've finally decided I'm never going to get a chance to play with this, so it's looking for a new home where it can receive the love and attention it deserves. It's one of those black stacking motorola machines - just pile up discs on top ... (and connect the scsi and control and power cables on the back..) Main unit. P/N 01-W2522D01A. Second bay P/N 01-W2519D01A. Boards are labled MVME 187 and I/O. Latter has the scsi and control on it, 4xserial and 10baseT and AUI ports. And it's got a tape drive in it. No floppy. My understanding is that this machine was only in service for a matter of months, maybe even weeks, then the user reverted back to their previous (accounts) system and this ended up under a desk for the next several years, before I rescued it. It's therefore not been powered up for about ten years ... I assume it's still loaded up with whatever it ran (Unix, SVR4 from memory, plus applications). It comes with no cables, no documentation, no passwords... I believe you can run NetBSD on it.. Free to loving home, for collection only from Salford, near Manchester, UK. Also available at the same time (take them, please!!!) two or three Wyse dumb terminals (Wy-120 and Wy-30), at least one of another make, multiple pentium-1 and 486 PCs in various conditions, some printers, monitors, etc. Interested parties please email me on robert at irrelevant dot com. Rob. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 17 02:00:47 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:00:47 -0800 Subject: HECnet In-Reply-To: <43A2C90C.8060401@softjar.se> References: <200512161359.jBGDvFsx076824@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43A2C90C.8060401@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 3:02 PM +0100 12/16/05, Johnny Billquist wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >>FYI, this is now live, anyone interested should probably head over >>to the HECnet mailing list. > >Minor nitpick: it's been live for the last five years or so. But >welcome anyway. I thought HECnet finally got up and running in August 2003? Of course I also thought it died right after that, though in the last week, I've learned I was wrong about that :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Dec 17 04:26:57 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 10:26:57 +0000 Subject: Motorola MVME machine available. (UK) Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20051217102230.04e0d7d0@irrelevant.com> I think I sent this originally from the wrong email address, and it's disappeared into a black hole (or is just held up for moderation.. My apologies if it turns up twice..) OK, I've finally decided I'm never going to get a chance to play with this, so it's looking for a new home where it can receive the love and attention it deserves. It's one of those black stacking motorola machines - just pile up discs on top ... (and connect the scsi and control and power cables on the back..) Main unit. P/N 01-W2522D01A. Second bay P/N 01-W2519D01A. Boards are labled MVME 187 and I/O. Latter has the scsi and control on it, 4xserial and 10baseT and AUI ports. And it's got a tape drive in it. No floppy. My understanding is that this machine was only in service for a matter of months, maybe even weeks, then the user reverted back to their previous (accounts) system and this ended up under a desk for the next several years, before I rescued it. It's therefore not been powered up for about ten years ... I assume it's still loaded up with whatever it ran (Possibly UNIX, SVR4 from memory, plus applications). It comes with no cables, no documentation, no passwords... I believe you can run NetBSD on it.. Free to loving home, for collection only from Salford, (near Manchester), UK. Also available at the same time (take them, please!!!) two or three Wyse dumb terminals (Wy-120 and Wy-30), at least one of another make, multiple pentium-1 and 486 PCs in various conditions, couple of early portable PCs (one compaq missing a keyboard, I think), some printers, monitors, etc. Interested parties please email me on robert at irrelevant dot com. Rob. From cc at corti-net.de Sat Dec 17 05:17:23 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:17:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <43A3011B.60805@oldskool.org> <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > For the FDC - I talk directly to the hardware, including the DMA chip - > but I let the BIOS handle the FDC interrupt (the handler just sets a > flag indicating that the current DMA operation if finished). And when will ImageDisk support additional FDCs (even at different IRQs and DMAs)? Without that support, I can't use it for my 8" and 5,25" 48tpi DD drive. I have a total of 4 FDDs on my machine (and perhaps more to come), and two FDCs (primary and secondary for now). And why doesn't ImageDisk support 4 FDDs on a single FDC? I have some boards that handle four drives with one FDC by providing two 34 pin headers that each connect to two drives. There are still too many restrictions to ImageDisk. But I honour your effort in making a universal disk archiving tool. Hope it will some day incorporate the above mentioned subjects. On the other hand, if the source were available... Christian From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 03:18:19 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:18:19 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <01C6028B.7907C5A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20051217132516.SLDO3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > 1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those? Write a set of programs to transfer the disks sector by sector to the PC over a serial link. This is what I did with the NorthStar system and it works very well. > 2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them? Asuming the guy has a bootable system, he can use the programs you write to recreate the disks (assuming you made them two way). Gettng that first boot disk is trickier - What did for the NorthStar system was to make a complete "in memory" image of the OS and serial transfer client, so that you could load it (via a bootstrap loader entered through the front panel or a ROM monitor) and write out the disks. This may require the "end user" to drop in a little ROM monitor to his system long enough to make the boot disks - this is far easier to do than to try and recreate a hard-sector disk by other means. > 3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a > way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only > have one serial port)? You don't - archive the 8" disk as an image. It's *FAR* more important to get the original data/media archived then it is to be creating custom formats for people. Once the data is archived and available, then you have a number of options when you want to read the data in the future: - Dig up an 8" drive and attach it to your PC, recreate the original disk, then connect the drive to your SystemX, boot/mount it and pull the files off. - Variation of above: Use a 5.25" HD drive (electrically the same as an 8" drive). - Use this list to find someone who can move the files for you. - Using the documented format of the image, and knowlege of your OS file structure, write a utility to extract the individual files that you need directly from the image. - Using the documented format of the image, extract the sectors and write them to an IDE drive, Flash card, or whatever is suitable at the time that you do this, attach the device to your system, and write/patch-in a driver to read the "new" media as an 8" drive. - Other ideas that may come to mind at the time. The alternative, is to never get around do backing up the data because you can't think of or find the time to do it in a completely universal fashion, which severely limits the future options of anyone who does not have the disk (or yours when the disk becomes unreadable): - Hopeing that you will be able to find someone who has made images of these disks so that you can explore means of recovering the data. > 4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting > of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again, > what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your > System 1 with only a 5" FDD? Exactly as above. > 5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which > is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do > with that (serious replies only pls :)? Image the bootable disk, and copy the TAR file to a PC and archive it with the image. Or if possible, copy it to other "target system" disks and image the lot. Just make sure that you preserve the data and document what exactly you did. Then you have at least provided an option for people in the future to find their own means of converting that data into something that they can use - otherwise, once the disk and/or tape goes bad the system is completely lost (and even before this happens, it's unavailable to anyone else). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 03:57:21 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:57:21 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > And when will ImageDisk support additional FDCs (even at different IRQs > and DMAs)? Without that support, I can't use it for my 8" and 5,25" 48tpi > DD drive. I have a total of 4 FDDs on my machine (and perhaps more to > come), and two FDCs (primary and secondary for now). Yeah ... this is a big problem... "I really wish I could get my classic system up and running. I've spend three years and hundreds of dollars on restoring it, and it's ready to go. Hours with the soldering iron, digging up technical details and lengthy hardware debugging sessions and if's finally ready! - but I can't find a boot disk. There is this stuipid ImageDisk thing, but I can't get it to work on my non-standard setup. As far as I can tell, I would have to temporarily move a drive cable and rejumper a drive in order to make the image into a bootable disk. What a bummer to have come so far and be completely stopped by an inconsiderate author who gave us such crappy free software and didn't even care enough to spend more of his money and time in recreating my non-standard setup and maintaining the software to work on it. Oh I wish I could somehow make a boot disk without having to move that cable and jumper - So many years of work have been spent and it looks like I'll never see that system run." Or is there a reason why your 8" and 5.25" 48TPI disks can't be run at the standard PC drive A: and B: positions? > And why doesn't ImageDisk support 4 FDDs on a single FDC? I have some > boards that handle four drives with one FDC by providing two 34 pin > headers that each connect to two drives. Because 4 FDDs on one controller is not a standard PC configuration. Does your controller use the internal drive select register of the 765? Does it have an external hardware register like the 2-drive select register of the PC, and if so what is the layout and will it be the same on different 4-drive controllers. Why does your controller have two connectors (there are four drive selects already on the cable). The primary reason ImageDisk doesn't support this, and dual controllers is because I don't have this setup and would be unable to test it. You are the first to ask for dual controllers (ok, you didn't really ask) - I don't think this is all that common a setup, and most people will find it easier to just hook up the required drive long enough to make the images that you need. (I provide details on my site on how to set up a nice external drive cable). >There are still too many restrictions to ImageDisk. I do apologize for burdening you with this. However the image file format is documented, and you are free to write your own compatible program (or do like Tony suggests and hold me responsible for your "having" to create yet another image file format). > But I honour your effort in making a universal disk archiving tool. Hope > it will some day incorporate the above mentioned subjects. On the other > hand, if the source were available... I would spend many hours helping people understand it, explaining why it doesn't compile with their favorite compiler or be easily made to run on their favorite system, and helping them implement features I decided not to implement in the first place. Then I would get lots of feedback about what I had done wrong and see posting about how "better" versions are now being maintained at site xxx. And if it goes like some of my earlier projects to which I released source code, I will eventually find other and even commercial tools which are based on my code (This happened in at least two cases with the C compiler). I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. I just don't need the hassles. I have no commercial goals for Imagedisk, and I will be happy to give out the source code under NDA, however I am not yet ready to make it generally available. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 17 08:25:06 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:25:06 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph References: Message-ID: <005201c60315$adf2b9c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Think of this - PC/XT given to a thrift store. They put an asking price on t > of $50 !! For 'VINTAGE HARDWARE - 60s/70s EARLY COMPUTER' and refuse to > renegotiate. How is a 16 year old supposed to work THAT over? Most people think price follows value. For you/us to see an antique as valuable while simultaneously expecting others to price it as worthless trash is something of an exploitation for personal profit. Not necessarily unethical, but don't push it. Big rule of low(er) price negotiation. The more enthusiasm you show, the higher price you get. Another rule: asking more than 50% off is asking almost too much of anyone. Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no internet." John A. From cc at corti-net.de Sat Dec 17 09:43:59 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:43:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Or is there a reason why your 8" and 5.25" 48TPI disks can't be run at the > standard PC drive A: and B: positions? Because some on-board FDCs don't support FM. Honestly it's very nasty to open the PC and jumper the secondary FDC to the primary address and disable the on-board FDC and change the BIOS setup... BTW it's not complicated at all to support a secondary FDC (shut down the primary if it's on the same DMA), the programming is the same. > Because 4 FDDs on one controller is not a standard PC configuration. > Does your controller use the internal drive select register of the 765? > Does it have an external hardware register like the 2-drive select > register of the PC, and if so what is the layout and will it be the same > on different 4-drive controllers. Why does your controller have two > connectors (there are four drive selects already on the cable). It must be some kind of standard, otherwise it wouldn't be supported by the stock DRIVER.SYS with MS-DOS. I've just checked my card: it's a multi-I/O 16-bit ISA card with IDE, two serial, one parallel and one FDC (it's a Motorola MCCS3201FN), the serial/parallel stuff if handled by a SiS 82C452A. There's a jumper for the FDC to be at 3Fx or at 37x, and so on. The only label on the card says "IFSP-2.10". It has two connectors because it also has four motor-on signals. You know that the four drive selects on the connector are divided into to two select and two motor-on signal. So you need two connectors for four drives. Just have a look at the data sheets for e.g. the DP8473 and the i82077: they all support four(!) drives, and it's documented, and it is realized the same way. The PLCC version of the DP8473 (the common version) has DR0 and DR1 on pins 6 and 5 (drive select 0 and 1), *and* DR2 plus DR3 on pins 45 and 43 respectively. And for the motor-on signal, MTR0 (8), MTR1 (7), MTR2 (1) and MTR3 (52). So connecting the unused pins on a card to a second 34 pin header gives you two more drives! The drive select and motor on signals are available in the digital output register (DOR), bits 0 and 1 contain the binary encoded drive number (0-3), bits 4 to 7 the 1 out of 4 motor-on lines. Now for the i82077: drive selects are on pins 58,62,64 and 67, motor-on signals on pins 57,61,63 and 66, same register (DOR), same use. Now for the uPD765: No good design for the PC uses the on-chip drive selects, and there are no on-chip motor-on signals, that's why there is an additional register (e.g. SN74174) on board that holds these signals, therefore called the "digital output register" (see e.g. the "HP Vectra Technical Reference Manual Vol.1" from 8/1985) > I don't think this is all that common a setup, and most people will find > it easier to just hook up the required drive long enough to make the > images that you need. (I provide details on my site on how to set up a > nice external drive cable). I've setup my PC to be a multi-media machine, i.e. it can handle multiple medias from 8" down to 3.5", it has a paper tape reader, a Facit 4070 paper tape punch, QIC tape drives, SCSI, and even an external dual 5.25" floppy drive that runs CP/M internally (yes, that's right, it's the floppy drive for the Mupid with Z80, 64kB of RAM, and a serial port to hook it up to the PC, BTW. the format is 96tpi single-sided FM). > I do apologize for burdening you with this. However the image file format I'm sorry if it sounded like a complaint, it wasn't meant to be one. Christian From tradde at excite.com Sat Dec 17 11:07:38 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <20051217170738.8BD542F5B0@xprdmxin.myway.com> What DEC OS's support DecNet? I do not have the ability to run RSX-11. I am still trying to get a full install of BSD 2.11 onto my pdp-11/84. Will BSD support DecNet? My problem at this point is getting the rest of the install over to the system. I have the root install done, but have the 3 large tar files with no easy way to get them to the host. I have used VTServer but it does not support files over 32M and this image is much larger than that. There is a Windows version of VTServer that is supposed to fix this but it does not work right for me. I even tried porting it to Linux, but had issues compiling it and once I got it it still would not work as well as the version I have before I tried that. I'd like to get my 11 up and running fully and first see if I could connect it to my home network. This DecNet thing sounds interesting too. Kind of like what I had with a BBS and connected to neighbor nodes for e-mail and such. Tim Radde --- On Thu 12/15, Robert Armstrong < bob at jfcl.com > wrote: From: Robert Armstrong [mailto: bob at jfcl.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, hecnet at Update.UU.SE Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 19:00:49 -0800 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update The hobbyist DECnet is actually working - we have now five distinctlocations connected and six or seven machines online 24x7 with a coupledozen more that are turned on occasionally. Here's a SHOW NETWORK -OpenVMS Network status for local node 2.1 LEGATO on 15-DEC-2005 18:40:09.95 Area Cost Hops Next Hop to Area 1 4 1 SVA-0 -> 1.13 MIM 2 0 0 (Local) -> 2.1 LEGATO 11 4 1 SVA-0 -> 11.1023 A11RTR 60 10 1 TCP-0-0 -> 60.664 PDXVAX Node Links Cost Hops Next Hop to Node 2.7 CODA 0 4 1 SVA-0 -> 2.7 CODA 2.100 PETEY 0 10 1 TCP-0-1 -> 2.100 PETEY Total of 2 nodes. You can see a full list of the nodes and descriptions here http://www.jfcl.com/Computers/dcn.pdfWe've been using Johnny's HECnet mailing list to communicate http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.htmlIf you'd like to hook up we'd love to have more nodes!Bob Armstrong-----Original Message----->from: Robert Armstrong [mailto:bob at jfcl.com] >I'm interested in setting up a network of hobbyist DEC machines linked >together in a DECnet phase IV network. Why? I suppose there's no >really good reason, but it seems like it would be fun to be able to do >"SHOW NET" or "NCP SHOW ACTIVE NODES" and see a whole long list of >machines that aren't mine :-) Besides, it would be a good way to share>access to real, non-simulated, VMS/RSX/RSTS and even, maybe, TOPS-10 >or 20, machines.>> Does anyone else agree? Is anyone else interested in participating?>> I know I'm not the first to think of this; in particular, I've had a >few email discussions recently with Johnny Billquist about HECnet,>> http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html>>At some point I'd like to link up with HECnet, but right now Johnny is >having ISP problems and it sounds like HECnet is down to one or two >nodes.>> Are there any other hobbyist DECnet associations that are going > strong?>> As for technology, it seems like the best thing would be to use the >Internet as our communications medium. Nobody wants to pay for >point-to-point leased lines anymore, after all. Multinet, TCPware, and>even DECNet Phase V all have the ability to send DECnet traffic over IP. >Right now I'm leaning towards Multinet - they have a free hobbyist >license program, and Multinet can create point-to-point virtual DECnet >circuits using UDP packets that can be routed over the Internet. >They're simple to set up and administer.>> I have a fair amount of Internet bandwidth available at my location, >and I can set aside a VS4000 VLC or model 90 to serve as a dedicated PhaseIV >routing node.>>Bob Armstrong _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From bob at jfcl.com Sat Dec 17 11:31:59 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:31:59 -0800 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: <20051217170738.8BD542F5B0@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <005e01c6032f$ccff56b0$0401010a@jfcl.com> > What DEC OS's support DecNet? Pretty much all of them, although some better than others. VMS, RSX, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RSTS/E all had DECnet, and even RT-11 had some limited support. There was an experimental DECnet for OS/8 (really for RTS/8) but I don't think it was ever finished. >Will BSD support DecNet? BSD is not a DEC OS. Sorry :-) Ultrix-32 had DECnet, but I don't know if Ultrix-11 ever did. Maybe somebody else knows? Linux even has DECnet, but of course that won't run on your -11. You can always get a VAX or Alpha workstation - many of them are pretty cheap these days. Bob From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 09:19:03 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:19:03 +0000 Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC (was Archiving software) In-Reply-To: References: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051217192531.GNTD9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > BTW it's not complicated at all to support a secondary FDC (shut down the > primary if it's on the same DMA), the programming is the same. ImageDisk already has an option to specify the FDC hardware address, however I do not have a system with two controllers, so I have not gone any further toward supporting dual FDCs. What do I need to do to "shut down" the primary FDC - it is just a matter of setting bit 3 in the Digital output register (See description below). If this is the case, you could try poking this bit with a debugger, and then running ImageDisk with an optioh of "IO=372" for the secondary controller address. If this works, let me know and I'll include an option to disable the primary controller. The documents I have describe the "Digital output register" as: 7 = 0 Reserved 6 = 0 Reserved 5 = 1 Enable drive 1 motor 4 = 1 Enable drive 0 motor 3 = 0 Enable diskette interupts and DMA 2 = 0 Controller reset 1 = 0 Reserved 0 = 0 Select drive 0 1 Select drive 1 >From the information you posted, I gather that the logical extension to this is: 7 = 1 Enable drive 3 motor 6 = 0 Enable drive 2 motor 5 = 1 Enable drive 1 motor 4 = 1 Enable drive 0 motor 3 = 0 Enable diskette interupts and DMA 2 = 0 Controller reset 1 = 0 Select drive 0-1 11 = Drive 3 1 Select drive 2-3 ie: 10 = Drive 2 0 = 0 Select drive 0-2 01 = Drive 1 1 Select drive 1-3 00 = Drive 0 Is this correct? Again - I do not have such a controller, so it would be very hard for me to test and maintain the software - If I make the changes to support this, are you (or anyone) willing to test it? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 17 14:04:49 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:04:49 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051216212206.GRPG3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43A46F61.7000107@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I have no commercial goals for Imagedisk, and I will be happy to give out > the source code under NDA, however I am not yet ready to make it generally > available. Couldn't ask for more than that I reckon :) I suppose you just need to make it clear to anyone who takes you up on that that there's *no* support from you whatsoever. cheers Jules From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 14:39:41 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:39:41 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <005201c60315$adf2b9c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 12/17/05 9:25 AM, "John Allain" wrote: >> Think of this - PC/XT given to a thrift store. They put an asking price on > t >> of $50 !! For 'VINTAGE HARDWARE - 60s/70s EARLY COMPUTER' and refuse to >> renegotiate. How is a 16 year old supposed to work THAT over? > > Most people think price follows value. > For you/us to see an antique as valuable while simultaneously expecting > others > to price it as worthless trash is something of an exploitation for personal > profit. > Not necessarily unethical, but don't push it. > > Big rule of low(er) price negotiation. > The more enthusiasm you show, the higher price you get. > Another rule: asking more than 50% off is asking almost too much of anyone. > > Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no > internet." That's the angle I tried, I mentioned that it wouldn't connect to the internet, and was shown a master price list that they weren't allowed to challenge. The cashier's had no negotiating power, and the manager would hear none of me, or anyone else, I think I asked once a week if it was still there and at what price, and for the three months I tried, it stayed there at it's same price tag of $50. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Sat Dec 17 14:40:49 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:40:49 -0600 Subject: Need help with DECnet/connecting to HECnet. Message-ID: Okay, I've got a fresh install of RSTS/E 9.2-10 on my SCSI disk, along with DECnet/E and DECmail-11. #1, what do I have to do to set up the PDP-11 to work with the router? I know nothing about DECnet at all, and this is to be my "initiation" so to speak. #2, I wget'd and extracted the bridge program from Johnny's site to my Sun box. What options do I need to set in bridge.conf to make my system work? Here's my network setup: PDP11(BIGBOA) [SLU 2 of KDF11-BA] ^ | v [SLU 2 of Sun] Sun Netra T1 200(192.168.1.2) <-> *INTERNET* TIA Julian From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 15:01:29 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:01:29 +1100 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph References: Message-ID: <004501c6034d$0ebcb0d0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > On 12/17/05 9:25 AM, "John Allain" wrote: >> >> Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no >> internet." > > That's the angle I tried, I mentioned that it wouldn't connect to the > internet, You would've been caught out if the shop assistant knew better....... cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 15:04:40 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:04:40 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <004501c6034d$0ebcb0d0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: On 12/17/05 4:01 PM, "Lance Lyon" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Sparkes" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:39 AM > Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > > >> On 12/17/05 9:25 AM, "John Allain" wrote: >>> >>> Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no >>> internet." >> >> That's the angle I tried, I mentioned that it wouldn't connect to the >> internet, > > You would've been caught out if the shop assistant knew better....... > > cheers, > In this area, the shop assistants are more worried about getting shot or makng a drug deal then anything else, I guess they price for doped up idiots or something? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 14:51:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <01C6028B.7907C5A0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Dec 16, 5 09:48:46 pm Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 00:20:19 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Archiving Software > > > >> ImageDisk seems like a definite step in the right direction - it's certainly > >> done a brilliant job when I've tried it. > > >It's a pity the source code hasn't been released. I really don't like > >using programs that I've not read through... > > Ahh, there's just no pleasing some people... ;-) I don't normally moan about this. I do one of three things : 1) Find an alternative program with source available. 2) Write a program to do the job (and if I distribute it, it will be open-source) 3) Do the job ome other way entirely (maybe not even using a computer). Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of proper technical documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_ release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy', it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the sourc code for the programs involved.... > > 1 - I have some hard-sectored disks for my Vector MZ; how do I archive those? > The PC disk hardware plain can't read or write those AFAIK. You would have to use the Vector's disk controller, and transfer the bits to a PC, e.g. via a serial port. You can then store them on the PC. > 2 - Assuming I do, how do I or you recreate them? You would have to do the same thing in reverse -- transfer the data to a real Vevtor, then write to disk. If there is no way to enter a program on the Vector, and you have no bootable disk for it at all, this could be 'interesting' (one way would be to provide a ROM image that replaces the bootstrap ROM of the Vector, you would have to program that into an EPROM. plug it into the machine, that program could then load the data from the PC and put it onto disk. Once you've made a bootable disk that way, put the original ROM back in the Vector and boot it. > > 3 - I have a SSSD 8" CP/M Visicalc distribution disk; how do I send it to you in a > way that you can re-create a 5" disk for your SystemX (especially if you only > have one serial port)? The CP/M filesystem is well documented. If you made a raw image of this disk (e.g. with Imagedisk), you could run another program on a PC to extract individual files from it. You could then put those files together again to make a disk image for whatever machine you want. > > 4 - I have a version of Cromix+ for Cromemco on DSDD 8" disks, consisting > of one bootable disk and a tar file spanning three more disks; again, > what do I put on my site or email you so that you can install it on your > System 1 with only a 5" FDD? Nasty! Presumably a program on the bootable disk (which reads in the tar file and unpacks it) differs between the 8" and 5.25" versions. I think I would suggest findin an 8" drive :-) > > 5 - And just to round out the list, I have a copy of Unix for the Cromemco, which > is on one bootable 5" disk and a tar file on a DC600 tape. What do I do > with that (serious replies only pls :)? Image thr disk e.g. with Imagedisk, define (or find) some way to archive the tape data in a way that the tape can be recreated from it (preserving things like block sizes). I think the important thing is to preserve tbe data in such a way that _at least_ the original media can be recreated from it. Converting it for other versions of the machine (or other machines) is a secondary problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 15:00:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:00:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 17, 5 09:57:21 am Message-ID: > > And why doesn't ImageDisk support 4 FDDs on a single FDC? I have some > > boards that handle four drives with one FDC by providing two 34 pin > > headers that each connect to two drives. > > Because 4 FDDs on one controller is not a standard PC configuration. Does RTFM (In this case the IBM Options and Adapters Technical Reference). The IBM PC disk controller most certainly supports 4 drives as standard. There's an 8 bit output port that controls the drive select and motor-on lines for the 4 drives. Because of the 'IBM Twist' to get seperate motor-on lines to the drives, you can only have 2 drives on a cable (the PC disk controller has a 34 pin card-edge for the internal drives and a DC37 for external drives). Later controllers, as used on the PC/AT, etc, only had one connector for the intenral drives, and only supported 2 drives. But if you look at the bit definitions of the drive control output port, you'll see 'gaps' in it. Those were the bits for the external drive select and motor-on signals. > > But I honour your effort in making a universal disk archiving tool. Hope > > it will some day incorporate the above mentioned subjects. On the other > > hand, if the source were available... > > I would spend many hours helping people understand it, explaining why It's odd, but I've released a number of classic computer-related programs under the GNU license and have never had any stupid questions like this. I do sometimes get interesting questions from people who know what they are doing and who want to do something totally different with it. Rememebr that the GNU license does not require you to support anything. > I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. > I just don't need the hassles. You have just lost any respect I may have had for you. -tony From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 15:15:53 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 08:15:53 +1100 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph References: Message-ID: <004c01c6034f$11a7d7f0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > > In this area, the shop assistants are more worried about getting shot or > makng a drug deal then anything else, I guess they price for doped up > idiots > or something? > I must admit, up until around the late '90's I used to be able to pick up bargains on on computer stuff in some of the less, shall we say, "salubrious" suburburban hock shops (mostly 8 bitters of all flavours), simply by pointing out that they couldn't run Windows (hey at least I was correct!), generally prices would then get marked down rather quickly :-) Mind you, even an XT can run Windows 1.01........ cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat Dec 17 15:29:22 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:29:22 -0500 Subject: Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS) In-Reply-To: <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> References: <20051214205327.C1F6473029@linus.groomlake.area51> <43A2DF4F.10544.7BBE5CE3@localhost> Message-ID: <0B20BDBD-F330-4E07-AE5F-BADFEBBC8DFD@mind-to-mind.com> Interesting enough I just ran across (in my basement ;-)) DESQview 386 and GEM developers kit from DR, both still sealed. From tradde at excite.com Sat Dec 17 15:37:31 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:37:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <20051217213731.CB073BB448@xprdmailfe27.nwk.excite.com> --- On Sat 12/17, Robert Armstrong < bob at jfcl.com > wrote: From: Robert Armstrong [mailto: bob at jfcl.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:31:59 -0800 Subject: RE: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update > What DEC OS's support DecNet? Pretty much all of them, although some better than others. VMS, RSX,TOPS-10, TOPS-20, RSTS/E all had DECnet, and even RT-11 had some limitedsupport. There was an experimental DECnet for OS/8 (really for RTS/8) but Idon't think it was ever finished.>Will BSD support DecNet? BSD is not a DEC OS. Sorry :-) Ultrix-32 had DECnet, but I don't know ifUltrix-11 ever did. Maybe somebody else knows? Linux even has DECnet, but of course that won't run on your -11. You can always get a VAX or Alpha workstation - many of them are prettycheap these days. --------------------------- I have too many systems here as it is. I don't plan on adding any more. :) I have a Linux box, but I would prefer to run something like this on a real 11. Any options for software I can legally use? Tim _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From bob at jfcl.com Sat Dec 17 15:48:38 2005 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:48:38 -0800 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: <20051217213731.CB073BB448@xprdmailfe27.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <007501c60353$a779e3f0$0401010a@jfcl.com> > Any options for software I can legally use? Run an emulated PDP or VAX on your Linux PC. Bob From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Dec 17 16:00:44 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:00:44 -0600 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 Message-ID: <003a01c60355$5564ca10$51406b43@66067007> Second try at sending this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 > Check out item number 8735082362 From tradde at excite.com Sat Dec 17 16:01:39 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:01:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <20051217220139.C27EA92010@xprdmxin.myway.com> Now what fun would that be.? I'd like to make use of my real pdp-11 hardware. --- On Sat 12/17, Robert Armstrong < bob at jfcl.com > wrote:From: Robert Armstrong [mailto: bob at jfcl.com]To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:48:38 -0800Subject: RE: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update> Any options for software I can legally use? Run an emulated PDP or VAX on your Linux PC.Bob _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 17 16:11:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:11:31 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A48D13.1@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of proper technical > documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me > that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_ > release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which > according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy', > it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the > sourc code for the programs involved.... Yep, but I suppose it only needs for you to get burned once for it to put you off trying again. And given Dave's statement about NDAs, the source *is* there if someone wants to port it to another system or use it to enhance their own copy - it's just not publicly available to everyone via the website. cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Dec 17 14:29:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:29:28 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <005201c60315$adf2b9c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051217142928.6aefdf3c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:25 AM 12/17/05 -0500, you wrote: >> Think of this - PC/XT given to a thrift store. They put an asking price on >t >> of $50 !! For 'VINTAGE HARDWARE - 60s/70s EARLY COMPUTER' and refuse to >> renegotiate. How is a 16 year old supposed to work THAT over? > >Most people think price follows value. >For you/us to see an antique as valuable while simultaneously expecting >others >to price it as worthless trash is something of an exploitation for personal >profit. >Not necessarily unethical, but don't push it. > >Big rule of low(er) price negotiation. >The more enthusiasm you show, the higher price you get. >Another rule: asking more than 50% off is asking almost too much of anyone. > >Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no >internet." No Windows XP! Hmm, that's not necessarily bad. :-) From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Dec 17 16:22:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:22:03 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 12:07:38 EST." <20051217170738.8BD542F5B0@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <200512172222.jBHMM3iq000972@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Tim" wrote: > >What DEC OS's support DecNet? I do not have the ability to >run RSX-11. I am still trying to get a full install of BSD 2.11 >onto my pdp-11/84. Will BSD support DecNet? My problem at this >point is getting the rest of the install over to the system. >I have the root install done, but have the 3 large tar files >with no easy way to get them to the host. If you can ethernet you can rcp the files. I've done that with bsd on a vax. Basically I mount a big partitionon the disk, rcp the file over and then untar it. I suspect you don't have a qbus ethernet card. Is that the case? -brad From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Dec 17 16:46:18 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:46:18 -0500 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <200512171006.jBHA5wAx090386@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> > > I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not > > making a copy of it to run it. Unless you're implying the > > process of reading it into memory to execute is copying it. IMHO > > that's a mighty fine line. > > Reading it into memory is copying it. Lawyers make a bunch of > their money due to fine lines. > The statement that reading it into memory is copying it is generally correct. Re: Does this imply that software in ROM does not need to be copied (in the legal sense) when it's run, but cashing the ROM would consitute a copy? Or does copying each byte in turn into an internal processor register count as a 'copy'. If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, but if ROM is copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video firmware often are), then it would be considered to be copied. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Dec 17 17:09:23 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:09:23 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <005201c60315$adf2b9c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051217175420.052001b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Allain may have mentioned these words: >Big rule of low(er) price negotiation. >The more enthusiasm you show, the higher price you get. Merch's Corollary: The farther away from home you are, the more costly your car parts are. "Don't let 'em see your Michigan license plates in Oregon." ;-) >Another rule: asking more than 50% off is asking almost too much of anyone. Depends on how unknowledgeable the people are of what they're selling. The last 2 CoCo2's I've seen at garage sales were marked at $70 and $75 each - bare, no carts, minimal cables. One wanted an extra $20 for the CCR-81[1] tape deck. We're talking 4, maybe 5 years ago, tops... Pentium 3's & Athlons were cheap & plentiful at the time. The first one I told the people that the machine w/tape deck was worth about $10, they thanked me for the info and asked me what I'd pay for it. I said $5. They were quite surprised, but when I told 'em I had 5 already (I was underestimating) I didn't need another one very badly. They sold it to me for $5. At the second place, I told them the same thing, they got all indignant, looked at me cross-eyed and said "Like you'd know." I told them "I do - I own several and I keep up with what they're worth." They then accused me of trying to undercut them - I told them "I own six now, I don't need another and I'm not buying yours no matter the price." They said "Would you take it for $1?" I refused & walked away. >Just say "This machine will not run any modern software at all -- no >internet." Many would not believe the sign. A lady bought a Ford dealership 68020 Unix server because it was in a big case. She asked me afterward: "It's bigger than my machine now, so it'll run Windows faster, right? ... And boy this sucker's heavy!" I calmly explained to her that it would not, and at first she wouldn't believe me, until she couldn't figure out where to plug in the PC monitor & keyboard. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] The CCR-81 is notorious for being not very trustworthy with one's data. If you're looking for a Tandy data tape deck, search for the CCR-82 - *very* good deck. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 13:09:36 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:09:36 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 17, 5 09:57:21 am Message-ID: <20051217231603.JUFM9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > I would spend many hours helping people understand it, explaining why > > It's odd, but I've released a number of classic computer-related programs > under the GNU license and have never had any stupid questions like this. > I do sometimes get interesting questions from people who know what they > are doing and who want to do something totally different with it. I've been running a mail-order software company selling development tools for embedded systems (of my own creation) for over 20 years. In the early years, I distributed source code, and I would estimate that a full 80% of the technical support revolved around issues relating to people who didn't "know what they are doing" trying to make changes to my tools, and expecting me to show them how, and to fix it when they made horrible messes of it. On top of that, published source to my C compiler was ripped off in at least two instances and used to create competing commercial products by companies which were beyond my ability to persue. So I don't have the same "warm and fuzzy" feeling about releasing source code that you. > > I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. > > I just don't need the hassles. > > You have just lost any respect I may have had for you. Well .. after that response, I guess the feeling is mutual. Clearly you have never tried to make a living in the software business. And your earlier crack about "having" to invent your own image format because you don't have access to my source (when the existing format is fully documented) only reinforces this impression. In the case of ImageDisk, it happens to be written with the PC version of my own C development system - It uses video and other libraries which are unique to my tools, and will not compile without changes under GNU C, Turbo-C, Microsoft-C or any windows/linux system ... In short the source code isn't going to be very useful to many people and I am not ready to begin the process of spreadng the program across platforms. If you look back on the early ImageDisk postings, you will find that I stated that I would release the source code when I felt it was mature enough, but I'm not ready to do that yet, as I am still finding things (like 4-drive support) that need to be addressed, and I also want to spend a fair bit of time and effort in bringing what began as a "weekend hack" project to a professional level before general availability (anyone who has looked at any of my other released source code should know that I have fairly high standards in the quality of the material I publish) - For people who just "gotta" have the source, I made the offer today to release it individually - but a general public release will have to wait until it is close enough to "finished" that I feel comfortable in doing so. Until then, I will retain control of the development. You will note however that I have fully documented the image file format, and I have provided tools to move raw binary images to and from .IMD format - this is my attempt to insure that nobody has any "risk" in putting disks in ImageDisk - you will always be free to convert the data to any other format you wish, and I believe I have provided the information necessary to do so. If this isn't good enough the for the classic community, then I guess this has all been a mistake. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 17:16:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:16:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A48D13.1@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 17, 5 10:11:31 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of proper technical > > documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me > > that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_ > > release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which > > according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy', > > it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the > > sourc code for the programs involved.... > > Yep, but I suppose it only needs for you to get burned once for it to put you > off trying again. All I can say is that I stopped distributing _binary_ versions of my programs because I got too many questions from total idiots. Supply source only weeded out those that hadn't got a clue at all (in that they wouldn't even try to compile it). I've distributed a number of things as source-only under the GPL (which means I don't _have_ to support anything). I have not had one stupid question. I have had questions from people who are trying to do things that the program was never designed to do, what I do then is explain what I did, why, and maybe give some hints as to how to modify it. And in the vast majority of cases, the other chap has managed to get the program to do what he wants > And given Dave's statement about NDAs, the source *is* there if someone wants > to port it to another system or use it to enhance their own copy - it's just The reason I want to read the source is that (of course) I'd like to produce a linus program to read obscure disks (and yes, that would be totally open-source). Now, I can't instantly see how to analyse a disk format using the 765 controller. I could probably work it out, but I've got other projects on... I would want to read the source to Imagedisk to learn how Dave did it. Not to copy his program, but to get ideas (as I have done many times in the past, I may and, and I do always acknowledge the source of said hints). But I am not prepares to enter into any kind of NDA about this, since I don't fancy the idea of a legal battle if Dave (or whoever) decides I have disclosed part of their code in my program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 17:17:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:17:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> from "Barry Watzman" at Dec 17, 5 05:46:18 pm Message-ID: > If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, but if ROM is > copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video firmware often are), then it > would be considered to be copied. THis confirms what I already suspected : The copyright law is seriously broken. -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 13:23:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:23:24 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: <43A48D13.1@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 17, 5 10:11:31 pm Message-ID: <20051217232952.JXYP9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I would want to read the source to Imagedisk to learn how Dave did it. > Not to copy his program, but to get ideas (as I have done many times in > the past, I may and, and I do always acknowledge the source of said > hints). But I am not prepares to enter into any kind of NDA about this, > since I don't fancy the idea of a legal battle if Dave (or whoever) > decides I have disclosed part of their code in my program. As stated previously, I don't have commercial goals for ImageDisk. NDA is the wrong term, but it was a quick and easy word to try and get the message across. All I want at this point is for anyone who wants an "early copy" of the source to agree: 1) Not to turn around and post it somewhere else (ie: don't give it out until I am ready to generally release the code). 2) Not to pester me with platform/compiler issues, or for help making non bug-fix changes/additions. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 13:23:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:23:24 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A46F61.7000107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051217232958.JYCU9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I have no commercial goals for Imagedisk, and I will be happy to give out > > the source code under NDA, however I am not yet ready to make it generally > > available. > > Couldn't ask for more than that I reckon :) I suppose you just need to make it > clear to anyone who takes you up on that that there's *no* support from you > whatsoever. Well... that kind of emphasises the kind of misunderstandings that can happen - I do intend to provide reasonable support, bug fixes etc. for the executable program --- it's support of the source code, third party modifications, changes etc. that I do not want to open up yet. When such time arises that I will not or can not support the program, then I will insure that the source code is made available (if it has not already happened by that time) - this btw is in place for all of my commercial products as well. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 17:32:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:32:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051217175420.052001b0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 17, 5 06:09:23 pm Message-ID: > [1] The CCR-81 is notorious for being not very trustworthy with one's data. > If you're looking for a Tandy data tape deck, search for the CCR-82 - > *very* good deck. The really bad one in my experience is the CTR-80. This was supplied with some Model 1's and had a really nasty design bug. When turned off by the remote socket _in play mode_, the erase head would put a glitch on the tape. On a Level II machine, the tape would be turned off if there was a checksum error in the last block read. So if you had a temporary error (a speck of dirt on the tape or something) which caused a bad read, the tape would stop and the _next_ block would be ruined. That tape would never load again. The work-around was to pull the remote-control plug and use it in manual control mode only. The fix, IIRC, was to solder a 10uF capacitor in parallel with the erase head. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 17 17:46:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:46:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051217231603.JUFM9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 17, 5 07:09:36 pm Message-ID: > > > > I would spend many hours helping people understand it, explaining why > > > > It's odd, but I've released a number of classic computer-related programs > > under the GNU license and have never had any stupid questions like this. > > I do sometimes get interesting questions from people who know what they > > are doing and who want to do something totally different with it. > > I've been running a mail-order software company selling development tools > for embedded systems (of my own creation) for over 20 years. In the early > years, I distributed source code, and I would estimate that a full 80% of > the technical support revolved around issues relating to people who didn't > "know what they are doing" trying to make changes to my tools, and > expecting me to show them how, and to fix it when they made horrible > messes of it. I've seen plenty of xource code released on the terms that the manufactuer will not support it (I am sure some old HP calculator hackers here remember those wonderful NOMAS listings for the 41 and 75 machines...). And of course the GNU license does not require you to support anything. It may be different if you're _selling_ something (and thus feel morally or legally bound to support it), but for free software I don't see the problem with telling people to get lost if they expect help in modifying or understanding it. That said, I have received a lot better support from free (as in GPLed) software authors than I've received from any software company. And in the latter cases, I was simply trying to get the program to behave as advertised, to do the job it was sold to me to do. > > On top of that, published source to my C compiler was ripped off in at least two > instances and used to create competing commercial products by companies > which were beyond my ability to persue. You have already said you don't consider that Imagedisk is 'commercial' so this, IMHO is totally irrelevant. [...] > Well .. after that response, I guess the feeling is mutual. Clearly you have > never tried to make a living in the software business. And your earlier crack Correct. > about "having" to invent your own image format because you don't have > access to my source (when the existing format is fully documented) only > reinforces this impression. It is my bitter experinece that documented interfaces (be they file formats, routine entry/exit conditions, or hardware specs) have undocument quirks and odd behaviour, and the only way to be _sure_ is to read the sources or schematics as appropriate. For example, when I was writing my HP calculator file translation utilities, I didn't just trust the information given in the manuals (which was wrong in some cases), I spent many an evening reading the HP71 ROM source code in the IDS volumes. And the HP41 source listings for that matter. > In the case of ImageDisk, it happens to be written with the PC version of > my own C development system - It uses video and other libraries which > are unique to my tools, and will not compile without changes under GNU C, > Turbo-C, Microsoft-C or any windows/linux system ... In short the source > code isn't going to be very useful to many people and I am not ready to > begin the process of spreadng the program across platforms. I guess you think I want ao make a few changes to your program and recompile it. Not so. I have explained in another message why I'd like to read the sources. I've read many source listings that I don't have any way to translate back to object code (do you have an HP Capricorn processor assembler on any of your machines? No, neither do I, but it didn't stop me reading the 1000-or-so pages of the HP75C ROM source). For the same reason I read scheamtics and repair manuals (not just for computers, or even for electronic stuff) for machines I don't own and have little chance of owning. You can learn a lot from so doing. And if you think that's 'ripping off your code', well, maybe it is, but I don't know a single programmer or designer who _doesn't_ read other people's code/scheamtics. > If you look back on the early ImageDisk postings, you will find that I stated > that I would release the source code when I felt it was mature enough, but And that, I suspect is the real reason. I can actually understand that, I once designed an I/O interface for the HP48, and I didn't release the schemaitsc until I'd built everything at least twice (once on stripboard, once on PCB) to help prove the design was sound. %deity that was an expensive project. Not being a programmer, I send out really awful code sometimes, but I can understand why you'd not want to do this. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 17 18:29:15 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:29:15 -0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: <0IRK005G1FVB51D1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRK005G1FVB51D1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <2179.192.168.0.2.1134865755.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 16, 2005 12:55 am, Allison said: > didn't like the idea or could not support water for the system. NY some > of the older buildings took near a year to get adaquate power for smaller > machines. Water, forget about that. The naiive side of me decided that companies based in older buildings wouldn't need the power of a VAX 9000, but I've only been a tourist in NYC so I'm fully prepared to be scoffed at :) > It was a good machine that held up well in use. The bulk of them > succumed when installed (phase rotation had the blowers backward!) > and the usual field circus tricks. My contact had their uptime at 24 days max, but perhaps that was a UK bad machine! > a mill. Field service offered them all sorts of inducements during > the 80s to replace it. I believe they system cost over a half million > to replace with software and stuff tossed in. It was just too costly > to fix the PDP1 if it broke. I'd love to know if that's still in use, they'd be surely in line for some sort of award! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From tradde at excite.com Sat Dec 17 18:43:21 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:43:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <20051218004321.0D3BDB6DA@xprdmailfe19.nwk.excite.com> If you can ethernet you can rcp the files. I've done that with bsd on a vax. Basically I mount a big partitionon the disk, rcp the file overand then untar it. I suspect you don't have a qbus ethernet card. Is that the case? ---------------- I do not have an QBus ethernet card, just a Unibus one. I doubt I can access RCP as it's probably not part of the root install. But I could be wrong. Why would it matter if I had a Qbus Ethernet card or not? _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 18:44:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:44:37 -0800 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512171644370605.33CA08B9@10.0.0.252> On 12/17/2005 at 11:17 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >THis confirms what I already suspected : The copyright law is seriously >broken. Well, the copyright on sheet music has been broken for years and no move has been made to fix it. I'll tick off three of the more interesting aspects (there are more): * You buy a piece of sheet music--can you perform it in a concert? Maybe, maybe not--if you charge admission (even incidentally) to the performance, you will probably be required to obtain a separate license for performance rights. Same goes for broadcasting it over the radio. * How about making a recording and passing it out (free of charge) to friends and associates? Nope--that falls under "mechanical rights" and many publishers insist that a separate license be negotiated (this one dates from the days of player pianos and crank-up phonographs). * If a work in the public domain is republished with trivial changes (for example, a part for horn in F is transposed to horn in Eb), the resulting work enjoys the same rights as if it were a completely new work. (This can be a "gotcha" for arrangers and performers). We've seemingly acquiesced to DRM on Microsoft products (although I plan to continue using Win 2000 and Word 2000 for as long as I can); is there any reason to expect that restrictions and rights management won't become more restrictive? FWIW, there is a bit of hope on the horizon--web-based software. For example, have a look at http://www.writely.com - a very decent web-based word processing package. Cheers, Chuck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Dec 17 18:49:37 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:49:37 -0800 Subject: Copyright References: <200512171800.jBHI03iJ093328@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001801c6036c$f270ae20$0300a8c0@downstairs2> It looks like you can copy a ROM into RAM to run the program if it is an essential step. http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117 ? 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs (a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. - Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided: (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful. Michael Holley From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 17 19:33:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:33:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <004c01c6034f$11a7d7f0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <004c01c6034f$11a7d7f0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <20051217173202.S76697@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Lance Lyon wrote: > Mind you, even an XT can run Windows 1.01........ An XT can run Windows 3.00. It can't run 3.10 or newer. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Dec 17 19:45:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:45:15 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> References: <200512171006.jBHA5wAx090386@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051217194515.4e5f8554@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:46 PM 12/17/05 -0500, you wrote: >> > I have plenty of software that runs directly off CD. I'm not >> > making a copy of it to run it. Unless you're implying the >> > process of reading it into memory to execute is copying it. IMHO >> > that's a mighty fine line. >> >> Reading it into memory is copying it. Lawyers make a bunch of >> their money due to fine lines. >> > >The statement that reading it into memory is copying it is generally >correct. > >Re: Does this imply that software in ROM does not need to be copied (in the >legal sense) when it's run, but cashing the ROM would consitute a copy? >Or does copying each byte in turn into an internal processor register >count as a 'copy'. > >If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, but if ROM is >copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video firmware often are), then it >would be considered to be copied. What if only a portion is "copied" at a time? (dll files, overlays, etc) Is that still considered copying for legal purposes? Joe > > > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 19:51:34 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:51:34 +1100 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph References: <004c01c6034f$11a7d7f0$0100a8c0@pentium> <20051217173202.S76697@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00b201c60375$95286fb0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph > On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Lance Lyon wrote: >> Mind you, even an XT can run Windows 1.01........ > > An XT can run Windows 3.00. > It can't run 3.10 or newer. True, my Amiga 2000 with 2088 Bridgeboard handles it quite nicely :-) But when you compare WB2.0 to W3, you realise hown pathetic W3 actually looked (& behaved as well). You wonder how MS ended up dominating the market..... Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 20:16:46 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:16:46 -0800 Subject: Toshiba T3100? Message-ID: <200512171816460763.341E6639@10.0.0.252> Someone posted a question this past week about a Toshiba T3100. I may be able to answer--I've discovered that I have the Technical Reference Manual for the thing (and I can't remember how I came by it). Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 17 20:22:32 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:22:32 -0500 Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) Message-ID: <0IRO002Q0993DN26@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) > From: "Witchy" > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:29:15 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >On Fri, December 16, 2005 12:55 am, Allison said: >> didn't like the idea or could not support water for the system. NY some >> of the older buildings took near a year to get adaquate power for smaller >> machines. Water, forget about that. > >The naiive side of me decided that companies based in older buildings >wouldn't need the power of a VAX 9000, but I've only been a tourist in NYC >so I'm fully prepared to be scoffed at :) As you should be. A lot of those builtings in NYC are older than dirt and there nothing like getting high power up to the 14th floor of a building that originally had gaslight. >> It was a good machine that held up well in use. The bulk of them >> succumed when installed (phase rotation had the blowers backward!) >> and the usual field circus tricks. > >My contact had their uptime at 24 days max, but perhaps that was a UK bad >machine! Sounds unusual or maybe buggy software factors. Most I'd heard of were running months at a time if not longer. >> a mill. Field service offered them all sorts of inducements during >> the 80s to replace it. I believe they system cost over a half million >> to replace with software and stuff tossed in. It was just too costly >> to fix the PDP1 if it broke. > >I'd love to know if that's still in use, they'd be surely in line for some >sort of award! I think FS won out by the late 80s, one of the few people that knew anything about it retured and a few others were not up for trips to Yellowknife in the cold season. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 17 20:23:59 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:23:59 -0800 Subject: Need help with DECnet/connecting to HECnet. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Okay, I've got a fresh install of RSTS/E 9.2-10 on my SCSI disk, along with >DECnet/E and DECmail-11. > >#1, what do I have to do to set up the PDP-11 to work with the router? I >know nothing about DECnet at all, and this is to be my "initiation" so to >speak. > >#2, I wget'd and extracted the bridge program from Johnny's site to my Sun >box. What options do I need to set in bridge.conf to make my system work? You'll want to speak with Johnny, and you really should join the the HECnet mail list. Setting up the bridge program will require coordination with him. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Dec 17 20:33:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:33:00 -0500 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <20051217213300.523652c6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:17:23 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, > > but if ROM is copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video > > firmware often are), then it would be considered to be copied. > > THis confirms what I already suspected : The copyright law is > seriously broken. > > -tony They 'tilt at windmills' enough about this on Slashdot. Can't we just skip that here? From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Dec 17 20:40:20 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:40:20 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> Message-ID: <43A4CC14.5080205@cox.net> I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. Really cool, just the same. -Bryan From news at computercollector.com Sat Dec 17 20:45:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:45:58 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A4CC14.5080205@cox.net> Message-ID: <000401c6037d$2de89390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Of course, it's a lot more fun to build your own than to buy one. :) http://brielcomputers.com/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan K. Blackburn Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. Really cool, just the same. -Bryan From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Dec 17 20:52:37 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:52:37 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <000401c6037d$2de89390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000401c6037d$2de89390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43A4CEF5.50607@cox.net> True that, but this is not a Briel Replica 1. This one uses no modern chips; all original part numbers. Even looks like the original. :) -Bryan 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Of course, it's a lot more fun to build your own than to buy one. :) > http://brielcomputers.com/ > From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 17 20:52:48 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:52:48 +1100 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> <43A4CC14.5080205@cox.net> Message-ID: <00cb01c6037e$230858b0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan K. Blackburn" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 1:40 PM Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion >I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > Really cool, just the same. > > -Bryan Hmmmm... is that a Commodore keyboard you're using on it ? Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Dec 17 21:00:22 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:00:22 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <00cb01c6037e$230858b0$0100a8c0@pentium> References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> <43A4CC14.5080205@cox.net> <00cb01c6037e$230858b0$0100a8c0@pentium> Message-ID: <43A4D0C6.2080300@cox.net> Jameco JE610, circa 1979. -Bryan Lance Lyon wrote: > Hmmmm... is that a Commodore keyboard you're using on it ? > > Lance From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 17 21:11:58 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:11:58 -0600 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> (Dave wrote) >>I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. >>I just don't need the hassles. (Tony Duell wrote) > You have just lost any respect I may have had for you. > > -tony The logic of this, coming from an adult, is astounding. Dave can and is defending himself, but as a happy "customer" of his free tools, I can't let this slide by. I often use an analogy with my six year olds: imagine we are going to the ice cream store (which in our case is not often), and you really want strawberry ice cream. We get there only to find out they are all out of strawberry, but how about chocolate instead? Are you going to cry and whine that you want strawberry, or are you going to be happy that you are still getting a nifty chocolate one? That makes a lot more sense to them than the adage, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." Dave has worked selflessly to produce a professionally done, well documented program for the benefit of us all. It is peerless; there have been similar programs in the past, e.g. teledisk, but they are not actively developed and the resulting disk image format is not documented. Imagedisk works, it is free and is unencumbered by questions of the right to use. OK, we are not in utopia. Dave isn't comfortable releasing the source code ... yet. And yet you complain about it. You say judgementally that if *you* had written the program, the you'd certainly release the source code. That is great except you *haven't* spent the time to write the program. So until you go and do it, you are just posturing. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Dec 17 17:11:22 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:11:22 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: References: <20051217231603.JUFM9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 17, 5 07:09:36 pm Message-ID: <20051218031758.CYDW3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > > > I would spend many hours helping people understand it, explaining why > > > It's odd, but I've released a number of classic computer-related programs > > I've been running a mail-order software company selling development tools > > for embedded systems (of my own creation) for over 20 years. In the early > > years, I distributed source code, and I would estimate that a full 80% of > > the technical support revolved around issues relating to people who didn't > > "know what they are doing" trying to make changes to my tools, and > > expecting me to show them how, and to fix it when they made horrible > > messes of it. > > I've seen plenty of xource code released on the terms that the > manufactuer will not support it (I am sure some old HP calculator hackers > here remember those wonderful NOMAS listings for the 41 and 75 > machines...). And of course the GNU license does not require you to > support anything. >... > It may be different if you're _selling_ something (and thus feel morally > or legally bound to support it), but for free software I don't see the > problem with telling people to get lost if they expect help in modifying > or understanding it. I would not feel comfortable in releasing the code unsupported until I am confident that it is mature and stable - Imagedisk is not at this point yet (It's getting there, but I'm not ready to screw the cover on yet). Until it is, I will keep it to a single platform and the development under my control. > That said, I have received a lot better support from free (as in GPLed) > software authors than I've received from any software company. And in the > latter cases, I was simply trying to get the program to behave as > advertised, to do the job it was sold to me to do. And this is relevant to me how? For the record, in the heyday of my software company, I would spend about 3 hours a day answering tech email - every tech problem would get answered the same day if possible. Even now I service my company mailbox "first thing" each and every day. > > On top of that, published source to my C compiler was ripped off in at least two > > instances and used to create competing commercial products by companies > > which were beyond my ability to persue. > > You have already said you don't consider that Imagedisk is 'commercial' Here we agree. > so this IMHO is totally irrelevant. and here we disagree - this particular branch of the thread was not written about ImageDisk - it was written in response to your statements about the wonderful experiences you have had releasing source code. The intent was to educate you to understand that my experiences have not been so wonderful. You know ... try and see how it looks from the other side and all that. > > about "having" to invent your own image format because you don't have > > access to my source (when the existing format is fully documented) only > > reinforces this impression. > > It is my bitter experinece that documented interfaces (be they file > formats, routine entry/exit conditions, or hardware specs) have > undocument quirks and odd behaviour, and the only way to be _sure_ is to > read the sources or schematics as appropriate. Now this is interesting - your "bitter experience" is justification for your assuming that I have not done a good job at documenting the ImageDisk format and therefore totally dismissing my work, yet my "bitter experiences", and my conservative approach to releasing source code as a result of them are blown off with "you deserve no respect from me" ... Seems to be a bit of a double standard here. For the record, the Imagedisk format is quite simple, and completely documented (It takes only one page to describe). If you want to "investigate it", Image some disks and using the document, take apart the image and see if it lines up. If you still don't take my word for it, you can use IMDU to convert the image to a straight raw sector dump - just the data from all the sectors strung out in a big line - I don't think you can get any simpler or more straightforward that this. > For example, when I was writing my HP calculator file translation > utilities, I didn't just trust the information given in the manuals > (which was wrong in some cases), I spent many an evening reading the HP71 > ROM source code in the IDS volumes. And the HP41 source listings for that > matter. And this is relevant to my work how? (a variation of your response above) > I guess you think I want ao make a few changes to your program and > recompile it. Not so. I have explained in another message why I'd like to > read the sources. And I have offered to make them available for "personal reading", so I don't see what the problem is. > And if you think that's 'ripping off your code', well, maybe it is, but I > don't know a single programmer or designer who _doesn't_ read other > people's code/scheamtics. Definately missing my point - it has nothing to do with worrying about people "ripping off" of my code - It has to do with my wanting to keep a door closed that I am not ready to open yet. > > If you look back on the early ImageDisk postings, you will find that I stated > > that I would release the source code when I felt it was mature enough, but > > And that, I suspect is the real reason. I can actually understand that, I > once designed an I/O interface for the HP48, and I didn't release the > schemaitsc until I'd built everything at least twice (once on stripboard, > once on PCB) to help prove the design was sound. %deity that was an > expensive project. > > Not being a programmer, I send out really awful code sometimes, but I can > understand why you'd not want to do this. Well ... at least thats something. At this point I am unwilling to clutter up the list with what has gotten very far away from anything relevant to it's charter, so I will bow out. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Dec 17 21:48:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:48:52 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRO00L7OD8YQ6T1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Archiving Software > From: Jim Battle > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:11:58 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > I tend to agree with your position Jim. Posturing or it's appearance is a bad place to be. As an aside if you've written any code for 765 then it's easy to understand how image disk works down deep. If you haven't then reading the code is likely only an exercise. There has been enough conversation about the chip and it's heirs to make it clear that the hardware is sometimes more than meets the eye. The ramification of hardware choices in PC implementations be it XT TTL loaded board or chip version of it is compromized and it does affect programming. When you add that lovely 8237 DMA it just gets more fun. My hats off to anyone programming PC hardware and getting good code that runs on all the muck and mire flavors of MS operating systems. Allison From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Dec 17 21:58:14 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:58:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 9000 (was: Re: Sun 386i available) In-Reply-To: <2179.192.168.0.2.1134865755.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: > The naiive side of me decided that companies based in older buildings > wouldn't need the power of a VAX 9000, but I've only been a tourist in NYC > so I'm fully prepared to be scoffed at :) SCOFF SCOFF. Quite a lot of the larger buildings in NYC have entire floors crammed with computers and datacom gear - sometimes in the strangest places, hidden from view. For a while, I damn near lived at 60 Hudson St., as well as 1155 A of the As). The buildings are not actually the problem. It is not a huge engineering task to get cables and pipes running from point A to point B - many of the older building were designed with some foresight, so there are trunks and risers in strategic locations. Perhaps these passageways were originally for the use (and expansion) of older systems - telegraph, pneumatic tube, and so forth - but they handle fibre and pipe quite well. The problem is all the arm twisting (often involving money) that one needs to do to get ANYTHING to happen at the NYC sites. > My contact had their uptime at 24 days max, but perhaps that was a UK bad > machine! Or was that 24 days between ECOs? Apparently the 9000s should have stayed in the oven quite a bit longer. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat Dec 17 22:18:40 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:18:40 -0500 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I missed the original post... it'd be interesting to hear about the > 400 machines and whether there's anything unusual about them > hardware-wise, or if there's anything nice on the disks. I don't know much about them... I picked them up instead of having the dumpster get them. Looks like the 715 are PA/RISC and have been mostly gutted. I have the drives etc. but they have no memory. I just popped open one 400 and it appears complete and in good condition. It had an HP product configuration sheet on the top with a lot of information. I can't boot it at the moment as I don't have an RGB cable. From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat Dec 17 23:10:49 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:10:49 -0500 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <151D0635-9AA9-4721-9D5A-BD0F486BD7F6@mind-to-mind.com> On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I missed the original post... it'd be interesting to hear about the > 400 machines and whether there's anything unusual about them > hardware-wise, or if there's anything nice on the disks. One of the 400s is in a tower configuration, the more complete one is in a "desktop" form. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 17 23:11:16 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:11:16 -0700 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Dec 2005 16:00:44 -0600. <003a01c60355$5564ca10$51406b43@66067007> Message-ID: Note: these are not "playing cards", which typically refers to a deck of cards marked for card games (i.e. Jack of Spades, etc.). This is for a deck of cards with slots that you can assemble into "house of cards" structures. I played with several decks myself when I was a little kid and it was great fun! These things have collectible value all on their own apparently, and a deck designed for IBM would fetch an additional premium among internet geeks. (I had it watched on ebay, but didn't bid!) In article <003a01c60355$5564ca10$51406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > Second try at sending this. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keys" > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:53 PM > Subject: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 > > > > Check out item number 8735082362 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 17 23:37:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:37:49 -0700 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: >Note: these are not "playing cards", which typically refers to a deck >of cards marked for card games (i.e. Jack of Spades, etc.). This is >for a deck of cards with slots that you can assemble into "house of >cards" structures. I played with several decks myself when I was a >little kid and it was great fun! > Cheater -- I used real cards only to have them fall. Well you can't say you don't learn things here or from other internet sites. I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > These things have collectible value >all on their own apparently, and a deck designed for IBM would fetch >an additional premium among internet geeks. (I had it watched on >ebay, but didn't bid!) > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 17 23:52:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:52:35 -0800 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? Message-ID: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> I was looking at a not-very-old HP keyboard today and noticed that the lettering on the keys is wearing away after only a few years of use. Another corner quietly cut, I suppose. Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the lettering all but indestructible. Is this a practice that's gone forever, or is there still a vendor who makes keyboards the old way? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 18 00:14:20 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:14:20 -0700 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A4FE3C.4080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I was looking at a not-very-old HP keyboard today and noticed that the >lettering on the keys is wearing away after only a few years of use. > >Another corner quietly cut, I suppose. > >Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the lettering all but >indestructible. Is this a practice that's gone forever, or is there still >a vendor who makes keyboards the old way? > > I think that went out when M$ started to have function keys defined for them but with $10 keyboards it hard to spend $$$ for real keys. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 18 00:14:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:14:35 -0800 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >I was looking at a not-very-old HP keyboard today and noticed that the >lettering on the keys is wearing away after only a few years of use. I've got an IBM keyboard on my desk at work, it's probably six or seven years old, and most of the letters are worn away. I've literally worn grooves into some of the key caps with my fingernails. At the same time, I'm typing this on a nine year old Apple Extended II ADB keyboard, other than being a bit dirty, it's in *perfect* condition. >Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the lettering all but >indestructible. Is this a practice that's gone forever, or is there still >a vendor who makes keyboards the old way? One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more concerned with with the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that feel good when you push on them. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 18 00:23:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:23:38 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A5006A.5060008@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > The really bad one in my experience is the CTR-80. This was supplied > with some Model 1's and had a really nasty design bug. When turned off by > the remote socket _in play mode_, the erase head would put a glitch on > the tape. How do design glitches like that get past QA? (Or was there no QA?) One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby programing or game playing and the damn thing just runs. I can't say that for my modern machines -- I had an ATX power supply die on my twice in 5 years (had a 5 year warranty), and I've had modern drives fail quite spectacularly, etc., etc. but I've been spoiled by most of my old machines. They just work. I mention all the above because it was a surprise to hear that a piece of old consumer-level hardware had such a nasty flaw. > The work-around was to pull the remote-control plug and use it in manual > control mode only. The fix, IIRC, was to solder a 10uF capacitor in > parallel with the erase head. Confused -- why would that fix it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Dec 18 00:29:18 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:29:18 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A501BE.80904@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > These things have collectible value > all on their own apparently, and a deck designed for IBM would fetch > an additional premium among internet geeks. (I had it watched on > ebay, but didn't bid!) I think it was the art geeks that drove up the price. These cards were apparently designed by Charles Eames. Charles and Ray Eames are legends in the design world. Their studio is still in operation, see: http://www.eamesoffice.com/ --Bill From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 18 00:34:10 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:34:10 -0600 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A502E2.6010400@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've got an IBM keyboard on my desk at work, it's probably six or seven > years old, and most of the letters are worn away. I've literally worn Not a Model M or suitable Lexmark variant, I hope? All of mine are just fine... > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. Nah, just buy model Ms and use PS/2-to-USB adapters. :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Dec 18 00:39:27 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:39:27 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <003a01c60355$5564ca10$51406b43@66067007> References: <003a01c60355$5564ca10$51406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <43A5041F.2040703@pacbell.net> If you missed out on the auction, get yours here now! New and unused! At $650 a pop, this makes the eBay price look like real bargain! http://www.eamesgallery.com/cart/detail_prod.php?prod_id=268&id_ctg=11&subcat_id=7 --Bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 18 00:40:48 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:40:48 -0700 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A50470.2060003@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB > keyboard. While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more > concerned with with the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that > feel good when you push on them. > Cherry has some very nice USB keyboards. > Zane > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 18 00:38:31 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 01:38:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> References: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And yet you complain about it. You say judgementally that if *you* > had written the program, the you'd certainly release the source code. > That is great except you *haven't* spent the time to write the > program. So until you go and do it, you are just posturing. I've written a lot of software, and almost all of it I have placed in the public domain. (A little of it is owned by others, and even of that, most is free, in both senses.) But I haven't written anything directly comparable to the program under discussion. So when I say that (while I don't go as far as Tony) your stance has taken you down significantly in my eyes, am I too "just posturing"? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Dec 18 01:14:17 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:14:17 GMT Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In message <200512172152350052.34E3F89D at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the lettering all but > indestructible. Is this a practice that's gone forever, or is there still > a vendor who makes keyboards the old way? I've got a Dell AT102W - proper keyswitches (Alps IIRC), plenty of metal inside, a lovely "clack" when a key gets pushed... and laser-etched keycaps :) These keyboards, BTW, also go by the part number "093GDJ". I'd buy another - it's the only Dell-branded device I've found that's actually built reasonably well... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Eagles Soar!, but weasels aren't sucked into jets! From nomad1 at localnet.com Sat Dec 17 17:14:53 2005 From: nomad1 at localnet.com (Nomad) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:14:53 -0800 Subject: Helk with a Kontron EPP-80 EPROM Burner Message-ID: <43A49BED.1000404@localnet.com> Hello, I was looking at the same to purchase and saw what you were asking about yours. How did you make out with it? Is it a good investment. Did you find the docs for it? I am considering buying a used epp-80 too but would like to know more about it first. Any help would be great & Thanx........Rick. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 17 19:43:55 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:43:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic toaster oven style word processors Message-ID: <20051218014355.87499.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> what sort of cpus do they have? Some specify ms-dos file copatibility with their built in floppy. Ive been seeing them all around the place at thrift stores and wonder if theyd be the basis for some kind of hack. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 17 21:20:12 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: has anyone ever even seen a Canon AS-100? Message-ID: <20051218032012.89027.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> its an all-in-one ms-dos (not pc) compatible, like a Lisa but more square. Can anyone suggert a strategy for finding something exceedingly dopey and uncommon? Viewable on old-computers.com. Japanese computers in general intrigue me, but many just werent sold here, at least not to any great extent. The AS-100 was, but apparently not too many. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 02:07:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:07:02 -0800 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512180007020671.355F1163@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 7:14 AM Philip Pemberton wrote: >I've got a Dell AT102W - proper keyswitches (Alps IIRC), plenty of metal >inside, a lovely "clack" when a key gets pushed... and laser-etched keycaps >:) > >These keyboards, BTW, also go by the part number "093GDJ". I'd buy another My old NCR/Cherry keyboards are worn so much that you can see depressions worn the space bar where my thumbs rest, but the keytops are otherwise intact. Same with my IBM model M's and the Wang rebrands. Does anyone remember when one of the supplies retailers (CDW, Inmac?) shipped customers a small cardboard box ith a red keytop in it labeled "Panic"? Those are double shot molded and fit a Cherry keyboard perfectly. At one time Keytronics made some nice keyboards, but that was a LONG time ago. After the Honeywell acquisition, they started turning out junk. I was just surprised that a relatively minor fabrication step that one used to take for granted had been quietly done away with. Okay, does anyone sell add-on volume controls and "mute" and "standby" buttons that will work with a model M? I don't need no stinkin' Windoze key, but I like the volume control knob--and the "mute" is useful also. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 02:22:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:22:58 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512180022580905.356DA8A4@10.0.0.252> On 12/17/2005 at 10:37 PM woodelf wrote: sites. >I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. >Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only >the 74xx became the only TTL used today? I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of pinouts with the older DTL circuits. By the time LSTTL was out, everyone had pretty much standardized on the 74xx line. My guess, anyway. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 02:29:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:29:42 -0800 Subject: Panasonic toaster oven style word processors In-Reply-To: <20051218014355.87499.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051218014355.87499.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200512180029420980.3573D30B@10.0.0.252> On 12/17/2005 at 5:43 PM Chris M wrote: >what sort of cpus do they have? Some specify ms-dos >file copatibility with their built in floppy. Ive been >seeing them all around the place at thrift stores and >wonder if theyd be the basis for some kind of hack. Regardless of CPU, since they have a keyboard, display and printer interface as well as a floppy drive, wouldn't that qualify them for hack status? Some of the Brother and SCM WPs used 8051-family CPUs. Amazingly gutless wonders. Some used Z-80 type CPUs, but remember that corners were cut almost to bleeding to make these things inexpensive. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Sun Dec 18 02:36:46 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:36:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 17, 2005 10:14:35 PM Message-ID: <20051218083646.E31047302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB > keyboard. While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more > concerned with with the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that > feel good when you push on them. I got a keyboard/mouse PS/2 to USB connector, so I could use my PS/2 keyboard(s) on my Mac mini. Works like a charm. -spc (Have yet to find any keyboard as good as a IBM AT or PS/2) From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Dec 18 02:53:41 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 02:53:41 -0600 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A52395.5010801@pacbell.net> (I, Jim Battle, wrote this concerning complaints about free software): >>And yet you complain about it. You say judgementally that if *you* >>had written the program, the you'd certainly release the source code. >>That is great except you *haven't* spent the time to write the >>program. So until you go and do it, you are just posturing. der Mouse wrote: > I've written a lot of software, and almost all of it I have placed in > the public domain. (A little of it is owned by others, and even of > that, most is free, in both senses.) > > But I haven't written anything directly comparable to the program under > discussion. So when I say that (while I don't go as far as Tony) your > stance has taken you down significantly in my eyes, am I too "just > posturing"? First, I should say that I meant to reply to Tony directly. After my post showed up on the list, I realized my mistake and sent an email to Tony saying such, but I didn't post it to this list because I didn't want to needlessly spam it again. der Mouse, there are too many pronouns and not enough attribution for me to answer with confidence as I'm not sure what you mean. If you are saying that I've just lost stock with you because of my disagreement with Tony, then so be it. But what that has to do with you writing software is a nonsequiter. Since it is such a nonsequiter, maybe you thought you were replying to Dave. If so, I still don't follow your reasoning. The complaint has nothing to do with what Tony has done for the world (or in your hypothetical, what you have done). Dave wrote a program and gave it away for free. If you don't like it, don't use it and go write your own. Talking about what you would do if you had written it is posturing, yes. Do it yourself or stop complaining. Dave, for his own reasons, decided the time isn't right for him to release the source code. Would we be better off if he just sat on it until that time? From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 18 03:22:05 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 04:22:05 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <01C6038A.B8784DE0@MSE_D03> Sorry to drag this out (and interrupt the dialogue between Dave & Tony) but, while I appreciate the replies I have had, I still have some questions. As I said, I'm not too concerned with bootable system disks; in the case of the Vector I'll settle for a disk copy and good old postal service if anyone ever needs one (unless Dave D, who will inherit my Vector anyway, decides to modify his NS* bootstrap program to work on the Vector). Any other system disks I have in a format that the PC can read & write I will image with Dave's program. And thanks to Gord Tulloch, BTW, who sent me the Vector disks in the first place - I haven't forgotten about you (or JP). I'm in the process of getting rid of all 10 of my Cromemcos (except for one, at least for the time being). Before I do (and for some time after), I'm going through several hundred 5" and 8" diskettes and about 200 MB of stuff on HDs to delete or at least remove any confidential data and archive anything useful. Since a lot of this stuff is more or less machine- and disk-size independent (as long as it's a Z80 CP/M or CDOS system - not sure about the 68000/10/20 stuff), it seems to make more sense to archive actual file sets instead of imaging disks; that does indeed seem to be what's been done for most of the CP/M stuff on the Web. Also, it looks like I can dump some of it since most of the common apps like dBase, Wordstar, Visicalc etc. are already available on the Web. On the other hand, although Howard Harte and Herb Johnson have a pretty comprehensive collection of manuals, I can't find the corresponding software anywhere; is there a site somewhere that already has stuff like the Cromemco languages (Fortran, Cobol, PL/I etc.) and OSs archived? There's no problem at my end; the Cromemco can read & write 5" PC format disks, 8" SSSD (at least) CP/M disks, and of course 5" and 8" CDOS and Cromix disks as well as DC600 tapes, and can transfer files via RS-232. But the question I still have is how to specifically (and easily) restore these files to another system running CP/M or CDOS/Cromix without a means of transferring files from the PC. I ran across something called PIPMODEM which seems to be one solution; I wonder if anyone here has ever installed/used it and its companion programs? Another way seems to be to convert binary <> ASCII, PIP to/from the console and convert back; I looked around but couldn't find/figure out what I need at both ends/directions. Also, once you've got a primitive transfer method installed, do you then need a full-blown comm program to routinely transfer files with xmodem/kermit/whatever? The reason I ask is that on the Cromemco there is just a small .bin file (pckt.bin) which is automatically invoked from the terminal (PC) end when transferring files; that is, you can be sitting at a prompt, select up/download [filename] on the PC and away you go (as opposed to opening a comm program on the host and putting it in send/receive mode). Is there anything like that for CP/M? And for the Unix gurus: if, as in Cromix, tar files are not ordinary files (i.e. you ordinarily tar to a device, not a file name), how would one convert a tar tape to a file in order to transfer it? I could of course restore the tar file to the HD and then tar it again to a file but that seems awkward. Could I just pipe the "un"tar back to tar (i.e. tar [device] - | tar - [filename])? How do you folks do this sort of thing? Again, sorry if in my ignorance I'm beating this subject to death. m From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 18 03:34:13 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:34:13 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic toaster oven style word processors In-Reply-To: <200512180029420980.3573D30B@10.0.0.252> References: <20051218014355.87499.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200512180029420980.3573D30B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <41370.195.212.29.83.1134898453.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > On 12/17/2005 at 5:43 PM Chris M wrote: > >>what sort of cpus do they have? Some specify ms-dos >>file copatibility with their built in floppy. Ive been >>seeing them all around the place at thrift stores and >>wonder if theyd be the basis for some kind of hack. > > Regardless of CPU, since they have a keyboard, display and printer > interface as well as a floppy drive, wouldn't that qualify them for hack > status? Some of the Brother and SCM WPs used 8051-family CPUs. Amazingly > gutless wonders. Some used Z-80 type CPUs, but remember that corners were > cut almost to bleeding to make these things inexpensive. The original Amstrad PCWs were Z80-based, and ran CP/M rather nicely. Gordon. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 18 03:58:25 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 04:58:25 -0500 Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <01C6038F.B34B48E0@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message---------------- Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:11:58 -0600 From: Jim Battle Subject: Re: Archiving Software (Dave wrote) >>I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. >>I just don't need the hassles. (Tony Duell wrote) > You have just lost any respect I may have had for you. > > -tony The logic of this, coming from an adult, is astounding. Dave can and is defending himself, but as a happy "customer" of his free tools, I can't let this slide by. I often use an analogy with my six year olds: imagine we are going to the ice cream store (which in our case is not often), and you really want strawberry ice cream. We get there only to find out they are all out of strawberry, but how about chocolate instead? Are you going to cry and whine that you want strawberry, or are you going to be happy that you are still getting a nifty chocolate one? That makes a lot more sense to them than the adage, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." Dave has worked selflessly to produce a professionally done, well documented program for the benefit of us all. It is peerless; there have been similar programs in the past, e.g. teledisk, but they are not actively developed and the resulting disk image format is not documented. Imagedisk works, it is free and is unencumbered by questions of the right to use. OK, we are not in utopia. Dave isn't comfortable releasing the source code ... yet. And yet you complain about it. You say judgementally that if *you* had written the program, the you'd certainly release the source code. That is great except you *haven't* spent the time to write the program. So until you go and do it, you are just posturing. ----------------Reply-------------- Amen/ditto that! Although I (still :) have a great deal of respect for Tony, I think an off-list note to Dave asking if he could look at the source code would have been more appropriate than his complaint. Then again, that seems to be a requirement for posting on this list, making sure there is always more complaining/kvetching etc. than kudos and appreciation... (except for model M IBM keyboards :) And that is Tony's oft-stated opinion after all, that if he doesn't have (or can't get/create) the inner details of whatever, he won't use it no matter how useful it might be, and this _is_ mostly a place for airing opinions... C'mon Tony, not even a tiny bit of respect for the great job Dave's done and continues to do, mostly for the benefit of the rest of us (some of whom just want to _use_ his excellent tools)? m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 18 03:53:43 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 04:53:43 -0500 Subject: Toshiba T3100 Message-ID: <01C6038F.B24F83C0@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:16:46 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Toshiba T3100? >Someone posted a question this past week about a Toshiba T3100. I may be >able to answer--I've discovered that I have the Technical Reference Manual >for the thing (and I can't remember how I came by it). >Cheers, >Chuck ----------------------------------- I was (and still am) that someone; I'll contact you off list. Thanks much, mike From spc at conman.org Sun Dec 18 04:22:58 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 05:22:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <01C6038A.B8784DE0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Dec 18, 2005 04:22:05 AM Message-ID: <20051218102258.E41A87302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great M H Stein once stated: > > And for the Unix gurus: if, as in Cromix, tar files are not ordinary files > (i.e. you ordinarily tar to a device, not a file name), how would one convert > a tar tape to a file in order to transfer it? I could of course restore the tar file > to the HD and then tar it again to a file but that seems awkward. Could > I just pipe the "un"tar back to tar (i.e. tar [device] - | tar - [filename])? > How do you folks do this sort of thing? Either "cat /dev/tapedef >file.tar" or "dd if=/dev/tapedef of=file.tar". -spc (Had to do something similar to this when installing Linux on an old Toshiba laptop ... ) From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 18 04:29:22 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:29:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC (was Archiving software) In-Reply-To: <20051217192531.GNTD9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051217192531.GNTD9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: Let's turn the discussion back to the technical aspects, for now they are more interesting than the question about open source... On Sat, 17 Dec 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > ImageDisk already has an option to specify the FDC hardware address, > however I do not have a system with two controllers, so I have not gone > any further toward supporting dual FDCs. What do I need to do to "shut > down" the primary FDC - it is just a matter of setting bit 3 in the Digital > output register (See description below). Yes, clear bit 3 and set bit 2. I do this with a sequence like MOV DX, 3F2h MOV AL, 4 OUT DX, AL > If this is the case, you could try poking this bit with a debugger, and then > running ImageDisk with an optioh of "IO=372" for the secondary controller > address. If this works, let me know and I'll include an option to disable the > primary controller. If I understood you correctly you rely on the BIOS to service the interrupt. This might work, but I recommend using an own interrupt routine. This means setting bit 7 in location 40:3e (for the BIOS) and sending EOI to the PICs, 20h to port 0a0h for IRQs greater than 7, and 20h to port 20h for all interrupts. At least this works for me. > From the information you posted, I gather that the logical extension > to this is: 7 = 1 Enable drive 3 motor 6 = 1 Enable drive 2 motor 5 = 1 Enable drive 1 motor 4 = 1 Enable drive 0 motor 3 = 0 Enable diskette interupts and DMA 2 = 0 Controller reset 1 = 0 Select drive 0-1 11 = Drive 3 1 Select drive 2-3 ie: 10 = Drive 2 0 = 0 Select drive 0-2 01 = Drive 1 1 Select drive 1-3 00 = Drive 0 > Is this correct? Yes. > Again - I do not have such a controller, so it would be very hard > for me to test and maintain the software - If I make the changes > to support this, are you (or anyone) willing to test it? Yes, of course. In order to explain why I have an 8" drive permanently connected to my PC: I also have an IBM 5110 with floppy drive and the only means at the beginning to transfer data and programs to this machine was by floppy (I've written a kermit in the meantime). So I started writing a program to do file based I/O on IBM diskettes (3740 or System/34 format), this means a mixture of FM, MFM, and different sector sizes on the same disk. And all this for the secondary FDC, too, because I didn't want to give up my standard 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives on A: and B:. My program still has some bugs and needs cleanup, but I will release it if there is real interest. I also have a lot of disks for the 5110, and I wanted to archive then using TeleDisk, but TeleDisk is so slow when it comes to e.g. 26 sectors/track, because it needs at least one revolution per sector for analysis and reading. I've incorporated a simple image function into my program but it doesn't provide information about interleave, errors etc. Now here is where ImageDisk might come in! Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 18 05:19:48 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:19:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 1000 Message-ID: Hi, our museum recently got "some" (a dozen) HP 1000 with "some" spare parts and "some" tapes. Currently we're building up some of the stuff to get a running system. For now, I've put a 2100S, a 2117 (1000F), I/O extender, two 7970B tape drives (one with the 200/556/800 bpi option), one 2748A tape reader, one HP 8100 tape punch (basically a Facit 4070), a HP130C (?) rackmount oscilloscope, and a 7905 disk drive with its 13037C controller into the three racks we have. Included are the original distribution tapes of RTE-II, RTE-III, RTE-IIIM, RTE-4, RTE-4b and RTE-6/VM, DS/1000, Signal/1000, Fortran, etc., a huge pile of paper tapes (original HP), and nearly all paper documents (manuals, schematics). But some parts are missing, so here are my (first) questions: - Does someone have the schematics of the 12555 dual D/A converter card? They are not on bitsavers yet. We've attached the D/A card to the scope and ported the PDP-8 kaleidoscope program to the HP2100. There are a lot of glitches in the analog signals and we want to find out where they come from (it's not a software bug, all test programs on all D/A cards we have show the same symptoms). - My only diagnostic tape (24396-13501 rev. 1926) has read errors in file 7 and in the last files. There is (was) a file in the SIMH package called hp2100_diag.txt that insinuates that there must be a TAP image of the 24396-13601 rev. 2040 diagnostics tape. Is there a chance to find it somewhere? I really need a working diagnostics tape. Christian From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 18 01:18:10 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:18:10 +0000 Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC (was Archiving software) In-Reply-To: References: <20051217192531.GNTD9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051218112437.TZMS9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > If this is the case, you could try poking this bit with a debugger, and then > > running ImageDisk with an optioh of "IO=372" for the secondary controller > > address. If this works, let me know and I'll include an option to disable the > > primary controller. > > If I understood you correctly you rely on the BIOS to service the > interrupt. This might work, but I recommend using an own interrupt > routine. This means setting bit 7 in location 40:3e (for the BIOS) and > sending EOI to the PICs, 20h to port 0a0h for IRQs greater than 7, and 20h > to port 20h for all interrupts. At least this works for me. Actually, I was full of excrement - Once I dug back into the guts of the floppy code to look at making these changes, I discovered that I had already put in my own interrupt handler some time ago... So I don't use BIOS of anything! (I did use the BIOS interrupt handler in the early stages) > 7 = 1 Enable drive 3 motor > 6 = 1 Enable drive 2 motor > 5 = 1 Enable drive 1 motor > 4 = 1 Enable drive 0 motor > 3 = 0 Enable diskette interupts and DMA > 2 = 0 Controller reset > 1 = 0 Select drive 0-1 11 = Drive 3 > 1 Select drive 2-3 ie: 10 = Drive 2 > 0 = 0 Select drive 0-2 01 = Drive 1 > 1 Select drive 1-3 00 = Drive 0 > > > Is this correct? > > Yes. Also from digging into my sources, I discovered that the docs I have describing Bit-3 are wrong as the sense of the bit is inverted to what is shown - this is consistant with your description above. > > Again - I do not have such a controller, so it would be very hard > > for me to test and maintain the software - If I make the changes > > to support this, are you (or anyone) willing to test it? > > Yes, of course. > In order to explain why I have an 8" drive permanently connected to my PC: > I also have an IBM 5110 with floppy drive and the only means at the > beginning to transfer data and programs to this machine was by floppy > (I've written a kermit in the meantime). So I started writing a program to > do file based I/O on IBM diskettes (3740 or System/34 format), this means > a mixture of FM, MFM, and different sector sizes on the same disk. And all > this for the secondary FDC, too, because I didn't want to give up my > standard 3.5" and 5.25" HD drives on A: and B:. My program still has some > bugs and needs cleanup, but I will release it if there is real interest. > I also have a lot of disks for the 5110, and I wanted to archive then > using TeleDisk, but TeleDisk is so slow when it comes to e.g. 26 > sectors/track, because it needs at least one revolution per sector for > analysis and reading. I've incorporated a simple image function into my > program but it doesn't provide information about interleave, errors etc. > Now here is where ImageDisk might come in! If your PC is fast enough, ImageDisk will read the track in a single revolution, however it will take additional revolutions for re-analysis when the track format changes. Also, for tightly spaced sectors, it may not be able to read them fast enough, which results in one revolution per sector. A useful trick in this case is to read them with a different interleave than the disk is physically formatted - for example, if the disks are formatted 1:1, then reading them 2:1 will allow one extra sector to pass between reads (two revolutions total) - The resulting image will indicate 2:1 interleave (however the sector numbering will be correct for 2:1) and can be used "as is", or you can use IMDU to re-interleave it back to 1:1 - but these steps are only necessary if you are reading a lot of disks and your PC can't keep up at 1:1 interleave. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 18 07:15:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:15:51 +0000 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A56107.9050605@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> And yet you complain about it. You say judgementally that if *you* >> had written the program, the you'd certainly release the source code. >> That is great except you *haven't* spent the time to write the >> program. So until you go and do it, you are just posturing. > > I've written a lot of software, and almost all of it I have placed in > the public domain. (A little of it is owned by others, and even of > that, most is free, in both senses.) But Dave has said that he will be releasing source, just not until he's happy that it's in a fit state to be released. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me; it's preferable to releasing something that isn't considered finished. I think this was my fault as I originally posted saying that source wasn't available - but Dave's responded since about it being available under some form of NDA-like agreement in the shorter term, and (as I read it) is hinting at a more flexible source release in the longer term when he's satisfied with the state of the code. Given that, I can't see why anyone has grounds for complaint? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 18 07:33:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:33:38 +0000 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A56532.1080500@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. I remember my father acquiring one new about a year ago from Staples (UK office supply store, if you don't have them overseas). IIRC it was made by Packard Bell. It was silver, and it stayed silver for about two weeks of use - after which the silver had worn off the most commonly used keys (key legends too of course) and exposed the black plastic underneath. I think that has to get my vote for "most unfit for purpose product" that I've seen in a good ten years. Incidentally, he lived with it for six months then bought another, identical one. It did exactly the same thing over the next two weeks, so PB obviously never got around to fixing them. (he's a bit of a technophobe is my dad, so he'll tend to stick with the same broken product line in preference to 'risking' an alternative that might somehow hook up differently :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 18 07:35:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:35:36 +0000 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A565A8.4060101@yahoo.co.uk> Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > On Dec 16, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I missed the original post... it'd be interesting to hear about the >> 400 machines and whether there's anything unusual about them >> hardware-wise, or if there's anything nice on the disks. > > I just popped > open one 400 and it appears complete and in good condition. It had an HP > product configuration sheet on the top with a lot of information. I > can't boot it at the moment as I don't have an RGB cable. Did you get Domain keyboards? They always seem to go missing (a bit like the proprietary SGI ones often do), and you can't run DomainOS without them. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 18 08:32:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:32:05 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 Message-ID: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 00:22:58 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/17/2005 at 10:37 PM woodelf wrote: > >sites. >>I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. >>Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only >>the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > >I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big >players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. >Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) >power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. >And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of >pinouts with the older DTL circuits. > >By the time LSTTL was out, everyone had pretty much standardized on the >74xx line. > I can still find 74h, 74F, 74S, 74hct, 74c, 74hc nevermining what I have on hand. It was interesting, useful and a PAIN. It sometimes made a huge differnce if you subbed a S04 where there was an LS04. Allison From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 18 08:47:38 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:47:38 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion Message-ID: <011e8d554bf9a8ef0b5517456e37bc19@atarimuseum.com> Bryan, Nice work, does your board clearly state in layer traces or in silkscreen (Apple-1 Recreation) so that as years go by, if the system is passed onto to new owners, they don't mistake yours for an actual original? I'm all for have near exact stuff done, so long as any product clearly states on it that its not an original so as not to create confusion. May I ask, what kind of keyboard are you using??? Curt -----Original message----- From: "Bryan K. Blackburn" oldcomp at cox.net Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:36:28 -0500 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > Really cool, just the same. > > -Bryan > From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Dec 18 09:06:47 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:06:47 -0500 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) Message-ID: <20051218150647.AD738BA47C8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/17/2005 at 10:37 PM woodelf wrote: > >I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > >Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only > >the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > > I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big > players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. > Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) > power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. > And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of > pinouts with the older DTL circuits. > > By the time LSTTL was out, everyone had pretty much standardized on the > 74xx line. Don't forget, some of the "standard" 74xx line are actually National or Fairchild or Motorola parts that were not originally given 74xx numbers (because they weren't TI parts) but they were eventually second-sourced by TI and given 74xx numbers. "Imitation is the truest form of flattery." The ones that come to my mind most immediately are the Fairchild 9310 and 9316, later known as 74160 and 74161, all massively used synchronous counters. I also seem to recall part numbers like 40160 as Motorola tried to back-incorporate them into their TTL lineup. (Am I confused as usual?) I think the funny Vcc/Gnd pinouts (often 4 and 10) were actually thought to be good for some reason in some specialized PCB designs - I think I see these show up on some early MSI quad latches (7475) and counters (7490, actually pins 5 and 10). I don't know if these were cross-incoprorated from parts that started out at Motorola or Fairchild or National or what. Tim. From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Dec 18 09:16:14 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:16:14 -0500 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: <20051218150647.AD738BA47C8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20051218150647.AD738BA47C8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <43A57D3E.1060201@jcwren.com> The "funny" pinouts actually make more sense than the corner pins currently used, from a die bond-out perspective. Using the middle pins results in the shortest and lowest impedance path from pin to power or ground plane on the die. As I recall, most ECL logic uses this, for exactly that reason. It makes PCB layout more difficult when only 2 layers are used, but for 4 layers it has little to no impact. --jc Tim Shoppa wrote: > [snip] > >I think the funny Vcc/Gnd pinouts (often 4 and 10) were actually thought >to be good for some reason in some specialized PCB designs - I think >I see these show up on some early MSI quad latches (7475) and counters >(7490, actually pins 5 and 10). I don't know if these were cross-incoprorated >from parts that started out at Motorola or Fairchild or National or what. > >Tim. > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Dec 18 09:20:30 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:20:30 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 References: Message-ID: <000501c603e6$960306e0$0100a8c0@screamer> I don't have schematics for the 12555 board, but I am very familiar with them. The 12555 is not strictly compatible with M/E/F series CPU's due to their I/O timing. The 12555 generates its Z axis signal based (indirectly) on the I/O backplane timing. In a faster machine (E and F series) a new set of X/Y values can be loaded into the registers before the Z axis signal is done. This will produce a glitch. If your using this board in an E or F series processor, I'd recommend one of two approaches to work around this issue. 1. use programmed I/O rather than DCPC (DMA) transfers. 2. Double up each point sent, sending the same X/Y values at least twice. Also note that there is an RC timer on these boards that can be set by changing a capacitor value. Longer RC values were commonly used with storage tube displays. If your running this board on the 2100, timing is not the issue, but the RC timer settings may be. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Corti" To: Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 6:19 AM Subject: HP 1000 > Hi, > > our museum recently got "some" (a dozen) HP 1000 with "some" spare parts > and "some" tapes. Currently we're building up some of the stuff to get a > running system. For now, I've put a 2100S, a 2117 (1000F), I/O extender, > two 7970B tape drives (one with the 200/556/800 bpi option), one 2748A > tape reader, one HP 8100 tape punch (basically a Facit 4070), a HP130C (?) > rackmount oscilloscope, and a 7905 disk drive with its 13037C controller > into the three racks we have. > Included are the original distribution tapes of RTE-II, RTE-III, RTE-IIIM, > RTE-4, RTE-4b and RTE-6/VM, DS/1000, Signal/1000, Fortran, etc., a huge > pile of paper tapes (original HP), and nearly all paper documents > (manuals, schematics). But some parts are missing, so here are my (first) > questions: > > - Does someone have the schematics of the 12555 dual D/A converter card? > They are not on bitsavers yet. We've attached the D/A card to the scope > and ported the PDP-8 kaleidoscope program to the HP2100. There are a lot > of glitches in the analog signals and we want to find out where they > come from (it's not a software bug, all test programs on all D/A cards > we have show the same symptoms). > > - My only diagnostic tape (24396-13501 rev. 1926) has read errors in file > 7 and in the last files. There is (was) a file in the SIMH package > called hp2100_diag.txt that insinuates that there must be a TAP image of > the 24396-13601 rev. 2040 diagnostics tape. Is there a chance to find it > somewhere? I really need a working diagnostics tape. > > Christian > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 18 09:21:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:21:38 -0500 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) Message-ID: <0IRP0025X9BEDPL7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:06:47 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >"Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> On 12/17/2005 at 10:37 PM woodelf wrote: >> >I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. >> >Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only >> >the 74xx became the only TTL used today? >> >> I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big >> players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. >> Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) >> power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. >> And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of >> pinouts with the older DTL circuits. >> >> By the time LSTTL was out, everyone had pretty much standardized on the >> 74xx line. > >Don't forget, some of the "standard" 74xx line are actually National or >Fairchild or Motorola parts that were not originally given >74xx numbers (because they weren't TI parts) but they were eventually >second-sourced by TI and given 74xx numbers. "Imitation is the >truest form of flattery." > >The ones that come to my mind most immediately are the Fairchild >9310 and 9316, later known as 74160 and 74161, all massively used >synchronous counters. I also seem to recall part numbers like 40160 >as Motorola tried to back-incorporate them into their TTL lineup. (Am >I confused as usual?) > >I think the funny Vcc/Gnd pinouts (often 4 and 10) were actually thought >to be good for some reason in some specialized PCB designs - I think >I see these show up on some early MSI quad latches (7475) and counters >(7490, actually pins 5 and 10). I don't know if these were cross-incoprorated >from parts that started out at Motorola or Fairchild or National or what. The mid chip Vcc and ground went all the way back to the Moto and Fairchild RTL (in dip) or opposing pins in the 8/10/12 leaded TO5 (can) varient. However when it came to part numbers Moto is infamous for a plethora of "house numbers" where the number is not EIA or ISO or anthing else and was special for a project or customer. Most of the other vendors did that as well but Motorola was wild. HeathKit was a common consumer of house numberd parts from many vendors. Allison From emu at ecubics.com Sun Dec 18 08:40:09 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:40:09 -0700 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A574C9.6070208@ecubics.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. > While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more concerned with with > the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that feel good when you push > on them. I'm using few of the old IBM/Lexmark keyboards from 1984 with an USB/PS2 converter for years. Nice and heavy, so they don't move much after each keystroke. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Dec 18 09:45:09 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <01C6038F.B34B48E0@MSE_D03> from M H Stein at "Dec 18, 5 04:58:25 am" Message-ID: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> [Dave Dunfield] >>>>I used to release source code to nearly all of my stuff, but not any more. >>>>I just don't need the hassles. [Tony Duell] >>>You have just lost any respect I may have had for you. [Jim Battle] >>The logic of this, coming from an adult, is astounding. Dave can and is >>defending himself, but as a happy "customer" of his free tools, I can't let >>this slide by. [Mike Stein] >Although I (still :) have a great deal of respect for Tony, I think an >off-listnote to Dave asking if he could look at the source code would have >been more appropriate than his complaint. Well, I'll just throw my two cents in with Dave. I've done many projects where I don't release the source because it *is* a hassle to maintain. Keeping the source up is as big a chore as maintaining the binaries, people send in their pet patches and then complain when you don't add them (or don't add them in a timely fashion), or whine why did you do it that way and I would have done it this way, and I don't have time for that (even when you write that the project is, after all, unsupported and they can take it or leave it). For the record, there's been many others where I do release the source, but if I don't want to, I'm not going to. It's my freaking project, and in Dave's case, it's his freaking software. He can do with it whatever he likes. If he doesn't want to release the source, then people like Tony can take a chill pill. The open source movement has turned into some of the biggest elitist pigs this side of Richard Stallman; I get some of the same heat for refusing to use the GPL. That's my bloody business, isn't it? Just because it's non-commercial doesn't mean it should be open source. One hardly follows the other. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- May I join your mind? -- Sarek, Star Trek III ------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 09:53:12 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:53:12 +0000 Subject: Looking for data sheet for Intel N82930A3 Message-ID: I'm taking a stab at reverse-engineering a Toshiba "intouch" module DT-1003. It's been brought up here before (I got it from a list member). What is slowing me down a bit is the inability to find any data on the CPU... an Intel N82930A3. If I understand things correctly, it may be a variation of the 8051 microcontroller packaged up with a USB core. >From tracing leads so far, the USB connector does go right into the CPU, supporting the suspicion. If I can't manage to unwind the protocol (it's about 10-11 years old and not supported under any "modern" operating systems), I'm contemplating removing the CPU and building my own thing to drive the T6963-based display and read the buttons/IR port/rotary encoder. Naturally, it makes sense to spend some time just trying to blow packets at it first. Thanks for any pointers. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 10:07:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:07:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only > the 74xx > became the only TTL used today? "lot of different types" is exactly why. This "thinning" has happened with almost all logic families, but there are always exceptions - until about 10 years ago there were a couple of Motorola 4000 series TTL (!) parts still in use, as well as some Motorola 1600 series MECL III still useful. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 18 10:06:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:06:48 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:37:49 -0700 woodelf wrote: > I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder > how only the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > 74xx somehow became the only packing and numbering convention used. There isn't any one single family of 74xx integrated circuits. Manufacturers, for some reason, decided to shove the various code letters between numbers for entirely different silicon processes, i.e. 74Sxx 74ASxx 74Lxx 74LSxx 74Hxx ... Has anybody ever tried to compile a list of ALL the various 74xx logic gate families, with info about the silicon design/structure of each? From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 18 10:10:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:10:13 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051218111013.00416054.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:52:35 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I was looking at a not-very-old HP keyboard today and noticed > that the lettering on the keys is wearing away after only a few > years of use. > > Another corner quietly cut, I suppose. > > Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the > lettering all but indestructible. Is this a practice that's > gone forever, or is there still a vendor who makes keyboards the > old way? > Personally, I am hoping there is a hardware firm ("Carly-Packturd") that will cease to exist in that form (we want the real 'Hewlett-Packard' back, and NOW!) and that all the other keyboard vendors will continue doing keycaps the old way. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Dec 18 10:12:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:12:51 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <43A50470.2060003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> <43A50470.2060003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051218111251.710eedd6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:40:48 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB > > keyboard. While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm > > more concerned with with the keyboard not twisting easily, > > and keys that feel good when you push on them. > > > Cherry has some very nice USB keyboards. > It is a good thing that firms like Cherry still exist. I remember the Cherry brand going way back to the days of Minicomputers. Cherry keyboard hardware was available inexpensive and surplus before the current crop of cut-rate vendors even existed. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 18 10:18:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:18:05 -0500 Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software Message-ID: <0IRP00M2PBXGP435@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software > From: Cameron Kaiser > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org My small waste of BW and all. I write a lot of code. None for the most part appears in the public realm. There are several reasons for this. One being my favorite language is solder. Others include must of the code is crap, one off and quickies while useful are not worth much. HOWEVER... Once I went to great lenghts to put out a subsection of CP/M bios using 765 for general interest and no particular use. The result, one moaned about the assembler used (plain ASM), another was disappointed I didn't use Z80 instructions and Opcodes, A two tried to tell me it can't work (it was from the system that used/assembled it!). My response was and is still FREE IMPLIES: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Caps inteneded.. Often rather than getting mad accept it for what it is. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Dec 18 10:29:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:29:50 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051218162950.65C3EBA47BA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:37:49 -0700 > woodelf wrote: > > > I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > > Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder > > how only the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > > > > 74xx somehow became the only packing and numbering convention > used. There isn't any one single family of 74xx integrated > circuits. Manufacturers, for some reason, decided to shove the > various code letters between numbers for entirely different > silicon processes, i.e. 74Sxx 74ASxx 74Lxx 74LSxx 74Hxx ... > > Has anybody ever tried to compile a list of ALL the various 74xx > logic gate families, with info about the silicon design/structure > of each? Wow, it's pretty hard to meet the demand of "ALL". The various TTL handbooks from TI/Motorola/National/etc. do a halfway decent job of describing their silicon processes (not always identical from manufacturer to manufacturer, even with the same part numbers) at least at the "why you should use our brand of chips" level. Probably very insufficient in terms of building your own fab line. Many of these older handbooks are online at Bitsavers. These details are conspicuously absent from most manuals made in the past 15 years or so. The Motorola TTL and CMOS books from the 70's are particularly good at giving you a snapshot of the silicon and showing you parasitic structures in schematics. The TTL/74x handbooks also do a pretty good job of external electrical parameters as a function of family, as do Lancaster's TTL cookbook (mid 70's) and Horowitz&Hill (early 90's so many CMOS parameters too.). But when I have to keep up with the 3.3V-and-lower-tiny-fast-bus-driver 74x parts I pretty much have to start from scratch with electrical parameters, I can't keep them straight anymore. I suspect that you're asking about enough detail to lay out your own silicon and start your own fab line, and I don't think I've ever seen anything that'd teach you how to do that. The EE texts I've seen on this subject tend to concentrate almost exclusively on VLSI and NMOS/CMOS processes. The 70's-era TTL/Moto/National handbooks do have many transistor-level diagrams with resistor values (especially for simple gates and some of the more complex flip-flops), combined with some guesses at transistor parameters these can be used to build not-so-bad SPICE models, if that's where you want to go. Sometimes they even include the parasitic structures in their schematics. Tim. From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 18 11:37:29 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:37:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 1000 In-Reply-To: <000501c603e6$960306e0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <000501c603e6$960306e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > The 12555 generates its Z axis signal based (indirectly) on the I/O backplane > timing. > In a faster machine (E and F series) a new set of X/Y values can be loaded > into > the registers before the Z axis signal is done. This will produce a glitch. > If your using this board in an E or F series processor, I'd recommend one of > two approaches to work around this issue. > 1. use programmed I/O rather than DCPC (DMA) transfers. > 2. Double up each point sent, sending the same X/Y values at least twice. I'm not using DMA, nor do I use the Z axis signal for blanking. We've scoped some signals on the card, and I really don't know what is going on on this card. The Z signal appears just when the glitch starts and stays active just before the new value arrives. So either you have a long Z signal and always the glitches at the beginning, or you only have a very short pulse which is not long enough to have something useful on the screen. (The 12555 is used on the HP 2100S) The glitch I am talking about depends from the distance the point has to go, and is opposite of the direction! That means e.g if the dot is at the center position of the scope and I let it move to the bottom center position, I get a very strongly visible glitch to the top, the longer the distance the longer the glitch (verified by Y-T scoping the signals using the Z signal as trigger). This must come somewhere from the digital part of the D/A card, and that's why I need the schematics to understand how it works. I hope the following will help a bit (O=current position, | and - transition, X=final position, .. glitch) . . O | ..O----X X----O.. | | X Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 11:44:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 09:44:39 -0800 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: <20051218150647.AD738BA47C8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20051218150647.AD738BA47C8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200512180944390267.376FE1CF@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 10:06 AM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >The ones that come to my mind most immediately are the Fairchild >9310 and 9316, later known as 74160 and 74161, all massively used >synchronous counters. I also seem to recall part numbers like 40160 >as Motorola tried to back-incorporate them into their TTL lineup. (Am >I confused as usual?) For me, the prototypical "house part goes mainstream" in TTL are the Signetics 8T9x tristate bus receivers; e.g., 8T97 - 74367. Parts fitting a real need--and among the first tristate devices in popular use. Some of the Moto MTTL III 3000-series packages were pin-compatible with 74xx logic, just faster and more power hungry. I like the statement made in the databook preface that they operate "near the limit of saturated logic". Didn't National at one time (I'm too lazy to go riffling through my data books) have a IC family they called "Damn Fast"? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 18 12:05:28 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:05:28 -0600 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility Message-ID: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an "Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. Part of the problem is that this is a Taiwanese clone and the motherboard bears *no* manufacturer or model info. The only badging at all is on the front, which says "LCD 386". It looks like a fairly standard motherboard, has a Seagate ST-251 and a NewTronics DSDD 5.25" floppy drive, 8-bit EGA (I think) graphics card with an internal connector to a 640x240 mono LCD. The keyboard seems to be a regular AT type, clips on the front of the case over the LCD. Dimensions are about 12" tall, 17-18" wide, and 9" front-to-back. I've also never seen a system come up with BIOS messages from two companies: Phoenix 80386 ROM BIOS Version 3.06 Copyright (c) 1985,86 Phoenix Technologies Ltd All Rights Reserved CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES AT/386 SYSTEM SOFT SETUP VERSION 1.12 BANK 0 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY BANK 1 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY BANK 2 - DISABLED BANK 3 - DISABLED AT BUS CLOCK SOURCE - CLK2/2 I can't find any useful info on Google about the C&T "System Soft Setup". My questions are, should I be trying to find a Phoenix setup utility or a C&T util? Am I correct in thinking that's a disk-based utility, rather than NVRAM? In other words, should I be hitting Ctrl+Alt+Ins or something at boot? (Already tried that and all the usual suspects, no love.) Any help or information would be appreciated. Doc From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Dec 18 12:22:44 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:22:44 +0100 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051218182243.GI13985@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2005-12-18 12:05:28 -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > I've also never seen a system come up with BIOS messages from two > companies: > > > Phoenix 80386 ROM BIOS Version 3.06 > Copyright (c) 1985,86 Phoenix Technologies Ltd > All Rights Reserved > > CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES > AT/386 SYSTEM > SOFT SETUP VERSION 1.12 Well, *most* PC systems come up with BIOS messages from two companies, but you recognize them these days for working on different parts of the machine :-) The "Phoenix" BIOS is the code that is responsible for configuring the chipset to use proper DRAM timings for DRAM refresh etc. The "CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES" part belongs for sure only to the graphics adapter. So it's responsible for setting up the graphics controller. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 18 12:34:18 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:34:18 -0600 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <20051218182243.GI13985@lug-owl.de> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> <20051218182243.GI13985@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <43A5ABAA.9080204@mdrconsult.com> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > The "Phoenix" BIOS is the code that is responsible for configuring the > chipset to use proper DRAM timings for DRAM refresh etc. > > The "CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES" part belongs for sure only to the > graphics adapter. So it's responsible for setting up the graphics > controller. I'm not sure of that, as the motherboard has a Chips and Technologies chipset, and the graphics adapter has no C&T components at all. Doc From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 12:42:47 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:42:47 +0000 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A5ABAA.9080204@mdrconsult.com> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> <20051218182243.GI13985@lug-owl.de> <43A5ABAA.9080204@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512181042o5aea6482p@mail.gmail.com> > I'm not sure of that, as the motherboard has a Chips and Technologies > chipset, and the graphics adapter has no C&T components at all. > > > Doc > Check out here : http://www.asiliant.com/ I would try some dos sites, there where a few generic setup programs for changing the bios. You might get lucky there. Dan From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Dec 18 12:56:31 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:56:31 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 References: <000501c603e6$960306e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <000501c60404$c3e43110$0100a8c0@screamer> The 12555 dual D/A board is actually a 'point plot' display board, not a 'vector' display. Normally a 2 usec point is plotted for each X/Y data word sent to the board. I suspect your looking at the Z axis signal 'backwards'. A point is plotted on the CRT in only 2 usec. The 12555 works like this... Send a X/Y data word and the Z axis signal will unblank the beam and plot a point on the CRT, then re-blank the beam. This is done for all points in the display list, then set the Control FF on the board to start the 20 ms. display refresh timer. About 20 ms after Control is set, the Flag FF will set, generating an IRQ. This is a signal that its time to clear Control and send the display list to the board over again. If your not using the Z axis blanking, the board may well be working properly. The D/A converter outputs are only kept valid during the Z axis unblanking signal if you send the board data quickly. The 12555 will output stable levels as long as your not sending it data, so it could be used to program power supplies, etc. But when driving an oscilloscope, its strictly a point-plot device. I have several systems with the known-good 12555 boards installed, using several different display tubes (most common being the 1335 variable persistence display). I also have 1 system that has a much newer version of this board, based on a D/A chip rather than transistors and resistors. This newer version of the board was shipped in E-series CPU's used in vibration control / analysis systems. Oddly enough it has the same DCPC transfer issues as the original 12555's, so I'm not at all sure its an 'improved' version of the board. I could test your code on both versions of the dual D/A board, with and without Z axis blanking and report what I see (I can always take digital photos). Can you send me HPASM compatible source for your code, or an ABS binary image? One last point... Are you terminating the outputs of the 12555? Your 'glitch' drawing below suggests you might not have termination and the deflection signal is simply overshooting its final value. Unloaded the 12555 will produce about a 10 volt signal. This can generate nasty glitches with an impedance mismatch at the scope inputs. I have some old data sheets on the 12555 that describe how to set the RC values for the display refresh timer, etc. If needed I can look this info up for you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Corti" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 12:37 PM Subject: Re: HP 1000 > On Sun, 18 Dec 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: >> The 12555 generates its Z axis signal based (indirectly) on the I/O >> backplane >> timing. >> In a faster machine (E and F series) a new set of X/Y values can be >> loaded into >> the registers before the Z axis signal is done. This will produce a >> glitch. >> If your using this board in an E or F series processor, I'd recommend one >> of >> two approaches to work around this issue. >> 1. use programmed I/O rather than DCPC (DMA) transfers. >> 2. Double up each point sent, sending the same X/Y values at least twice. > > I'm not using DMA, nor do I use the Z axis signal for blanking. We've > scoped some signals on the card, and I really don't know what is going on > on this card. The Z signal appears just when the glitch starts and stays > active just before the new value arrives. So either you have a long Z > signal and always the glitches at the beginning, or you only have a very > short pulse which is not long enough to have something useful on the > screen. (The 12555 is used on the HP 2100S) > The glitch I am talking about depends from the distance the point has to > go, and is opposite of the direction! That means e.g if the dot is at the > center position of the scope and I let it move to the bottom center > position, I get a very strongly visible glitch to the top, the longer the > distance the longer the glitch (verified by Y-T scoping the signals using > the Z signal as trigger). This must come somewhere from the digital part > of the D/A card, and that's why I need the schematics to understand how it > works. > > I hope the following will help a bit > (O=current position, | and - transition, X=final position, .. glitch) > . > . > O > | ..O----X X----O.. > | > | > X > > Christian > > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Dec 18 13:05:37 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:05:37 -0800 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: (Zane H. Healy's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:14:35 -0800") References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512181905.jBIJ5bT0098255@lots.reanimators.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. > While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more concerned with > with the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that feel good when > you push on them. I'm liking the Matias TactilePro keyboard well enough (on an iMac G5). But then I am also a Northgate OmniKey user (on PCs). The keys feel and sound about right to me. Key cap logs are printed on top, not double-shot. -Frank McConnell From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 18 13:21:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:21:56 -0700 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >I can still find 74h, 74F, 74S, 74hct, 74c, 74hc nevermining what I >have on hand. > >It was interesting, useful and a PAIN. It sometimes made a huge differnce >if you subbed a S04 where there was an LS04. > > > Stiill 74xx family of stuff! Well almost now that CMOS has taken over, we have a whole lot of custom tristate buffers and latches but not much more. Where do you find High Threshold Logic for Industrial Applications. What about your aging aircraft like the SST that used 70's componernts? >Allison > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 13:25:19 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:25:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: <200512180944390267.376FE1CF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Didn't National at one time (I'm too lazy to go riffling through my data > books) have a IC family they called "Damn Fast"? They were actualyl LH series analog buffer amps - two grades of "Fast" and "Damn Fast". These were marketted for several years before some do-gooder religious type complained, and the National Semi people took it out. Bob Pease has a story about it. The 'Damn Fast" datasheets exist - I have several editions in my databook library. And for the time, those buffers were truely DAMN FAST. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Dec 18 13:31:09 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:31:09 -0800 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, but if ROM is > > copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video firmware often are), then it > > would be considered to be copied. > > THis confirms what I already suspected : The copyright law is seriously > broken. Very. Next thing you know the literary equivalent of the MPAA/RIAA will be arguing that looking at a book creates a tiny, temporary, upside-down copy on your retina. Therefore letting anyone else read your book is a copyright violation. Intelectual property is an artificial concept that was created by government because society benefits from it. Alterations in our political structure have led to a state of affairs where the benefits of copyright primarily go to a few monopolies and the benefits to society are restricted or non-existent. When when the costs to society start to exceed the benefit, the concept needs to change or it will disappear altogether (either by fiat or de facto) regardless of the actions of the Microsoft, the MPAA or the RIAA. They can complain all they want about illegal copying, but the illegal copying is largely their own fault. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Dec 18 13:31:09 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:31:09 -0800 Subject: Copyright In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c6035b$cad37200$6401a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On 12/17/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > If it runs from ROM, then it's not considered to be copied, but if ROM is > > copied ("shadowed") to RAM (as BIOS' and video firmware often are), then it > > would be considered to be copied. > > THis confirms what I already suspected : The copyright law is seriously > broken. Very. Next thing you know the literary equivalent of the MPAA/RIAA will be arguing that looking at a book creates a tiny, temporary, upside-down copy on your retina. Therefore letting anyone else read your book is a copyright violation. Intelectual property is an artificial concept that was created by government because society benefits from it. Alterations in our political structure have led to a state of affairs where the benefits of copyright primarily go to a few monopolies and the benefits to society are restricted or non-existent. When when the costs to society start to exceed the benefit, the concept needs to change or it will disappear altogether (either by fiat or de facto) regardless of the actions of the Microsoft, the MPAA or the RIAA. They can complain all they want about illegal copying, but the illegal copying is largely their own fault. Eric From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 13:33:11 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Stiill 74xx family of stuff! Well almost now that CMOS has taken over, > we have a whole lot > of custom tristate buffers and latches but not much more. Where do you > find High Threshold Logic > for Industrial Applications. HTL was never popular at all, and died when PLCs took over. I would venture to say that HTL is the hardest family of logic to find parts for. I have found more MECL I than HTL. > What about your aging aircraft like the SST > that used 70's componernts? There are specialty dealers that buy up old surplus for just this reason. The aircraft people will pay HUGE amounts to get the correctly rated parts, and these guys know it. I just found a whole box of new TI high rel gold surface mount TTL (something boring like a latch), still sealed. It is actually worth a pretty good sum, being that the mil spec gold surface mount packages are very hard to find. If they were plain old 74xx TTL, they would be worth 17 cents a pound. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Dec 18 13:47:54 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:47:54 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/18/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > What about your aging aircraft like the SST > > that used 70's componernts? > > There are specialty dealers that buy up old surplus for just this > reason. The aircraft people will pay HUGE amounts to get the correctly > rated parts, and these guys know it. In my business we call them the "parts mafia." It can be cheaper to redesign a board than to buy the parts... so long as you know what the board is doing. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Dec 18 13:47:54 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:47:54 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/18/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > What about your aging aircraft like the SST > > that used 70's componernts? > > There are specialty dealers that buy up old surplus for just this > reason. The aircraft people will pay HUGE amounts to get the correctly > rated parts, and these guys know it. In my business we call them the "parts mafia." It can be cheaper to redesign a board than to buy the parts... so long as you know what the board is doing. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 18 14:18:26 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:18:26 GMT Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS)" (Dec 18, 14:25) References: Message-ID: <10512182018.ZM17849@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 18 2005, 14:25, William Donzelli wrote: > > Didn't National at one time (I'm too lazy to go riffling through my data > > books) have a IC family they called "Damn Fast"? > > They were actualyl LH series analog buffer amps - two grades of "Fast" and > "Damn Fast". These were marketted for several years before some do-gooder > religious type complained, and the National Semi people took it out. Bob > Pease has a story about it. > > The 'Damn Fast" datasheets exist - I have several editions in my databook > library. > > And for the time, those buffers were truely DAMN FAST. Yes, they were. I have the "Damn Fast" datasheets, and at least one databook which includes them. I have some of the parts too -- I once built a scope probe out of them. I think it was one of the application notes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 18 14:27:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:27:15 -0700 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A5C623.2040708@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >I just found a whole box of new TI high rel gold surface mount TTL >(something boring like a latch), still sealed. It is actually worth a >pretty good sum, being that the mil spec gold surface mount packages are >very hard to find. If they were plain old 74xx TTL, they would be worth 17 >cents a pound. > > > Well I need a FEW pounds of TTL ... I'll give you a $10.00 for the 7412's and 7414's and 7470's. Now if I could get the sockets and PCB boards made just as cheep. Oh yah better throw in a few 7438's too. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > 7412 OC 3 input nands 7414 Hex Schmitt trigger 7470 Gated J/K F/F 7438 OC 2 input nand buffer Well I will not need a heat in my apartment next year -- just power up a few lb's of ttl. Are they suppose to glow red .... :) And what else do you have for 17 cents a lb ... Reads the fine print ... offer good only untill Dec 31, 1972 Blah The chips I picked are set of chips that a whole computer control and data path could be constructed from. Has anybody made a computer with such a small range of components? ( I know of the Apollo guideance computer already) From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 14:46:08 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:46:08 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512180022580905.356DA8A4@10.0.0.252> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512180022580905.356DA8A4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512181546.08774.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 03:22 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/17/2005 at 10:37 PM woodelf wrote: > > sites. > > >I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > >Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only > >the 74xx became the only TTL used today? > > I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big > players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. I read somewhere recently (another list) where Fairchild had their own proprietary numbers out before that, 8xxx or 9xxx or something? And then there's DTL, I have *no* idea how those are numbered. > Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) > power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. > And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of > pinouts with the older DTL circuits. For a chart that may be of some use (and which is continually being updated), have a look at http://yourpage.blazenet.net/rtellason/parts.html and the "by-generic-number" chart in particular. Hey, I guess this is my first post to this list -- I've been hooked in for a week or two more or less. I thought that I was way ahead of a lot of the folks I encounter in other contexts with regard to older hardware, but some of you folks just blow me away! Got lots of old machines, my first being an Osborne Executive with an external "Design One" hard drive box, WD1000 controller card in there that I hope still works, that one used to support George Peace's old RCPM system but with a different HD in it where the bearings went bad. Making that work with an ST225 was fun, and I never did get the write precomp part of it figured out so the last few MB of that drive are pretty much unusable. Got a number of Kaypros, maybe six or so. A Cromemco System Three w/ terminal that has some sort of drive problem -- they used incandescent bulbs in there for the indes sensors and whatnot, didn't they? A vic20 and c64 or three, plus a couple of 1541s and a whole mess of parts for them, I used to make a half-decent living fixing those, so if anybody needs parts give me a holler. Got a Televideo 816, which has the only 8" belt-driven HD I've ever seen, though it's unfortunate that the interfaces aren't rs232 or something more usable than what's there. Got a Bigboard II that I built, but have no BIOS or system disks for it. There's probably some other stuff I'm forgetting, but I may remember in subsequent posts. I'll no doubt run across some things from time to time that I want to get rid of. Like that Televideo for example, I don't see that as being all that terribly likely to be useful. Or the couple of Token-Ring cards I have at hand here -- anybody want those? I'll post about some other stuff as I come across it or think of it... Lots of stuff in here I'm seeing mention of that I haven't thought of or done anything with in ages. One hell of a list, if I can keep up with it! :-D -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 14:54:40 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:54:40 -0500 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: <0IRP0025X9BEDPL7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRP0025X9BEDPL7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512181554.40542.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 10:21 am, Allison wrote: > However when it came to part numbers Moto is infamous for a plethora of > "house numbers" where the number is not EIA or ISO or anthing else and > was special for a project or customer. Most of the other vendors did > that as well but Motorola was wild. HeathKit was a common consumer of > house numberd parts from many vendors. Know of any good references for crossing some of this stuff? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 18 14:59:51 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:59:51 +0100 Subject: RL drive problems ...? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2257@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi, I would like to hear from the specialists what they have to say about this problem. I finally got my 11/34C running again. It has an RL11 and has two RL02 and one RL01 connected. Most of the time I cannot boot RT11 from the RL02-DC, but sometimes the boot is successfull! If the boot fails, I see the READY lamp of the drive flash once, then the RUN light goes off, and the display shows 000004. BTW, at the end of the RL drive chain is of course the terminator. The cartridge was written while the system was still in my house (some 3 years gao, at some 20" Celcius), but the system is now in a 12" Celcius environment. Could the temperature difference make the disk too difficult to read in the nwe conditions? When RT11 runs, and I only do a .DIR command of the disk, is there something written to the disk? That could make the disk "useless", because of the 20"/12" Celsius issues? Another problem that I have since I have power for my systems is that the READY lamp of the RL01 is *always* ON. The FAULT lamp is OK - and is OFF. I have not yet investigated this problem, but hints in advance are appreciated :-) [would save me some time, to work on the other projects, like the floppy disk interface for the 6809 Core Board...] BTW, the system worked fine, 3 years ago ... it has power since a few weeks, and I had a lot of problem getting the 11/34C up and running, but that would be a different story too ... greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 14:57:25 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:57:25 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512181557.25724.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 11:07 am, William Donzelli wrote: > > I downloaded some motorola application notes from bitsavers. > > Wow they sure had a lot of different types of TTL. I wonder how only > > the 74xx > > became the only TTL used today? > > "lot of different types" is exactly why. This "thinning" has happened with > almost all logic families, but there are always exceptions - until about > 10 years ago there were a couple of Motorola 4000 series TTL (!) parts > still in use, as well as some Motorola 1600 series MECL III still useful. Yeah, the C64 in at least some versions used the MC4044 as a part of the clock generating circuitry... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 15:01:03 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:01:03 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512181601.03301.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 11:06 am, Scott Stevens wrote: > Has anybody ever tried to compile a list of ALL the various 74xx > logic gate families, with info about the silicon design/structure > of each? I've not done that second part, but have tried to get something of a grip on what's out there, see my parts pages at http://yourpage.blazenet.net/rtellason/parts.html and look over the generic parts page. That stuff all started out as a way for me to organize info that I have on hand here, and I put it on the web thinking some folks might find it useful (though I expect the transistor pages are probably more so). Roughly that stuff seems to be either bipolar or CMOS, but I have no idea what the differences are between some of the series, or how they fit in terms of the overall picture -- where 74F fits in for one example. One of these days maybe I'll get a grip on that whole issue and put up a page about it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 18 15:07:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:07:42 -0500 Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) Message-ID: <0IRP003VNPC3P1G0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:54:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sunday 18 December 2005 10:21 am, Allison wrote: > >> However when it came to part numbers Moto is infamous for a plethora of >> "house numbers" where the number is not EIA or ISO or anthing else and >> was special for a project or customer. Most of the other vendors did >> that as well but Motorola was wild. HeathKit was a common consumer of >> house numberd parts from many vendors. > >Know of any good references for crossing some of this stuff? > None really as some dont cross "exist". TO cross most I use a NTE or other parts sub manaul to find out what it is then work backward to a usuable number. tedious but near the only way to get from a M9313 RF transistor to a 2N or MRFxxxx part number. Allison From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 15:07:43 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:07:43 -0500 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512181607.43097.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 01:05 pm, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an > "Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried > the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. I have one socket 7 MB that's similar, you change the settings, save 'em, and it *still* comes back with a "CMOS Checksum Error", so I'm figuring that one is probably toast. > Part of the problem is that this is a Taiwanese clone and the > motherboard bears *no* manufacturer or model info. The only badging at > all is on the front, which says "LCD 386". It looks like a fairly > standard motherboard, has a Seagate ST-251 and a NewTronics DSDD 5.25" > floppy drive, 8-bit EGA (I think) graphics card with an internal > connector to a 640x240 mono LCD. The keyboard seems to be a regular AT > type, clips on the front of the case over the LCD. Dimensions are about > 12" tall, 17-18" wide, and 9" front-to-back. There's a small program I remember (and might have someplace) that you give as input that long string of numbers that pops up when your BIOS first signs on, and it'll give you a link to the board maker's web site, if you like I can do a bit of digging and see what I can come up with. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Dec 18 15:10:32 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:10:32 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 18 December 2005 02:21 pm, woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > >I can still find 74h, 74F, 74S, 74hct, 74c, 74hc nevermining what I > >have on hand. > > > >It was interesting, useful and a PAIN. It sometimes made a huge differnce > >if you subbed a S04 where there was an LS04. > > Stiill 74xx family of stuff! Well almost now that CMOS has taken over, > we have a whole lot of custom tristate buffers and latches but not much > more. Where do you find High Threshold Logic for Industrial Applications. > What about your aging aircraft like the SST that used 70's componernts? HTL? I seem to remember that being in the ECG cross-reference / replacement guide... :-) Want to get even more obscure? I worked on some machinery a while back (QUITE a while back :-) that used some logic parts made by Amperex that they called "Norbits" -- these things were HUGE compared to normal DIPs and all of them had an odd number of pins, typically 17 though some had other numbers. I might even still have some data on those around someplace. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From oldcomp at cox.net Sun Dec 18 15:21:16 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:21:16 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <011e8d554bf9a8ef0b5517456e37bc19@atarimuseum.com> References: <011e8d554bf9a8ef0b5517456e37bc19@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43A5D2CC.40105@cox.net> Curt Vendel wrote: > Nice work, does your board clearly state in layer traces or in > silkscreen (Apple-1 Recreation) so that as years go by, if the system > is passed onto to new owners, they don't mistake yours for an actual > original? Four notable givaways: 1) Missing the original copyright notice. 2) Missing the original boardmaker logo. 3) The words "Homebrew 2005" etched and soldermasked on the reverse side. 4) Card edge not gold plated. > > May I ask, what kind of keyboard are you using??? Jameco JE610 From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Dec 18 15:24:25 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:24:25 -0600 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051218152354.0cd70828@localhost> I've just sent you GSETUP31.EXE and .TXT, a generic setup util. Might work. At 12:05 PM 12/18/2005 -0600, you wrote: > I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an > "Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried > the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. > > Part of the problem is that this is a Taiwanese clone and the > motherboard bears *no* manufacturer or model info. The only badging at > all is on the front, which says "LCD 386". It looks like a fairly > standard motherboard, has a Seagate ST-251 and a NewTronics DSDD 5.25" > floppy drive, 8-bit EGA (I think) graphics card with an internal > connector to a 640x240 mono LCD. The keyboard seems to be a regular AT > type, clips on the front of the case over the LCD. Dimensions are about > 12" tall, 17-18" wide, and 9" front-to-back. > > I've also never seen a system come up with BIOS messages from two > companies: > > > Phoenix 80386 ROM BIOS Version 3.06 >Copyright (c) 1985,86 Phoenix Technologies Ltd >All Rights Reserved > >CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES > AT/386 SYSTEM >SOFT SETUP VERSION 1.12 > >BANK 0 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY >BANK 1 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY >BANK 2 - DISABLED >BANK 3 - DISABLED >AT BUS CLOCK SOURCE - CLK2/2 > > > I can't find any useful info on Google about the C&T "System Soft Setup". > > My questions are, should I be trying to find a Phoenix setup utility or > a C&T util? Am I correct in thinking that's a disk-based utility, rather > than NVRAM? In other words, should I be hitting Ctrl+Alt+Ins or > something at boot? (Already tried that and all the usual suspects, no love.) > > Any help or information would be appreciated. > > > Doc [Conformity] It gives me great pleasure indeed to see the stubbornness of an incorrigible nonconformist warmly acclaimed. -- Albert Einstein --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From allain at panix.com Sun Dec 18 15:30:08 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:30:08 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? References: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <006d01c6041a$38b848e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > When did double-shot keytops disappear? When they invented the Sharpie? Hey, nasty. I just looked at my HP 1405 (ps/2) and 1429 (hphil) keyboards and, while the coloring matches ages old HP color choices, no sign of the 2 shot. You have reminded me that my IBM-M kb collection (dozens) may not be a crazy thing after all, doesn't take up much space certainly. Does anyone make ADB-USB adaptors for the cool design old Mac keyboards? John A. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 15:49:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:49:44 -0800 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512181349440078.385045D0@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 12:05 PM Doc Shipley wrote: >I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an >"Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried >the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. There were a few 386 MB's that required an external setup disk (usually Phoenix). I'm assuming that your system will at least boot from drive A: in some fashion? If not, you may want to zap the CMOS and see what happens. I may have one such diskette in my collection--I'll have a look tonight. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Dec 18 15:57:23 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:57:23 -0600 Subject: Found the system model! Was Re: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <200512181349440078.385045D0@10.0.0.252> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> <200512181349440078.385045D0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A5DB43.4090607@mdrconsult.com> It's a Vobis LCD-386: http://www.hknebel.org/Museum/Museum/Tragbare_PCs/Nicht_IBM_PCs/Vobis_LCD386/vobis_lcd386.htm There was one on eBay early this month, too. Item # 8730903874 Now I just need to find some docs on the board. There are several jumper sets on the motherboard, and none of them labeled, so I don't know how to zap the BIOS yet. And yes, I can even boot from hard disk. The generic Phoenix BIOS setup.com from the old www.firmware.com site lets me set floppy, HDD, and date settings, it's just not stopping the boottime error. Doc Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/18/2005 at 12:05 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > > >>I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an >>"Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried >>the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. > > > There were a few 386 MB's that required an external setup disk (usually > Phoenix). I'm assuming that your system will at least boot from drive A: > in some fashion? If not, you may want to zap the CMOS and see what > happens. > > I may have one such diskette in my collection--I'll have a look tonight. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 18 16:04:02 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:04:02 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A5D2CC.40105@cox.net> References: <011e8d554bf9a8ef0b5517456e37bc19@atarimuseum.com> <43A5D2CC.40105@cox.net> Message-ID: <43A5DCD2.2070909@atarimuseum.com> Very nicely done Bryan, doing all of that, its obvious that this was about making a reproduction, not to try and fool people, I applaud your efforts! :-) Curt Bryan Blackburn wrote: > Curt Vendel wrote: > >> Nice work, does your board clearly state in layer traces or in >> silkscreen (Apple-1 Recreation) so that as years go by, if the system >> is passed onto to new owners, they don't mistake yours for an actual >> original? > > > Four notable givaways: > > 1) Missing the original copyright notice. > 2) Missing the original boardmaker logo. > 3) The words "Homebrew 2005" etched and soldermasked on the reverse side. > 4) Card edge not gold plated. > >> >> May I ask, what kind of keyboard are you using??? > > > Jameco JE610 > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 12/16/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 16:12:03 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:12:03 -0800 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <200512181601.03301.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512181601.03301.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512181412030147.3864B480@10.0.0.252> I was talking with a fellow who worked for a local pipe organ builder (now retired) about their needs for logic in the adjustable combination actions of their instruments. For non-organists, this basically is the mechanism that allows a player to set combination of stops so that they are actuated by depressing a button or a toe stud. Basically a memory with a bit of control logic driving some actuators connected to the drawknobs. Given that we still have instruments around that were built in the 13th century, I asked the guy what they did about making sure that there was a 100-200 year supply of replacement ICs. IIRC, they used mostly 74LS TTL and some CMOS and a bunch of power Darlingtons,etc. (a bit more about that later). He replied that they make up a care kit with 2 of everything and place it safely away inside the console. I opined that this hardly seemed like enough. He said that the function was simple enough that the kit was mostly to get one past minor repairs; they expected that periodic redesigns would be routlinely undertaken with the appropriate modern logic. BTW, the power components are mostly for visual effect. He said that if a tracker action instrument (which is what they made) was being installed, organists demanded drawknobs that moved and not simple buttons, which would be far easier to accomodate. Go figure. A couple of years ago, I was reading about the lock controls on the Panama Canal and, at least until a few years ago, they're still original equipment installed in the 1910's, all that nice brass and mahogany stuff. I read that a microprocessor-based system is slated to replace the old circuitry; anyone want to guess if it'll still be intact 90 years after installation? Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Dec 18 16:14:00 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:14:00 GMT Subject: HP logic analysers - IAs and utils? Message-ID: Hi, I know a few folks here own HP 1600-series logic analysers, so I hope this isn't stretching the boundaries of on-topicness too much.. I've just hacked together a little symbol loader for the 1651B. All it does is read a text file full of "LABEL = $F00D" format lines, then loads them all into the 1651B's symbol table. Very handy when debugging microprocessor systems with one of these analysers (especially when you've got an inverse assembler for the target CPU). In addition to that, I've also thrown together a 6502 inverse assembler for the 1651B (though it *should* work on the other 1650 and 16500 series machines too). It understands all the Western Design Center 65C02S "extra" instructions, and should (in theory at least) work with raw 6502 and Rockwell 65C02 code as well. Oh, and it calculates the actual target of relative addresses, too. And cross-references addresses against the analyser's symbol table (see above) :) Now for the icing on the cake - I've also written an inverse assembler downloader. The old IALDOWN util that HP released with the Inverse Assembler Toolkit won't work on anything faster than a PC/AT (IIRC), so I grabbed a copy of the 1650B Programmer's Manual and threw together a Windows-based (although it could be ported to Linux console-mode easily enough) tool to replace IALDOWN. OK, so the million dollar question is, should I clean up the code for these apps and release them? Does anyone else use one of these analysers, or am I the only person on the planet who considers a 1651B to be "good enough"? Has anyone else written any little tools or analyser addons like these? What about inverse assemblers? I've seen the 8008 disassembler Jim Kearney wrote, but that seems to be about it... Licence will probably be a BSD derivative - along the lines of "Use it as much as you like and for whatever you want as long as you credit me in whatever you derive from it, and change the name of your app." IALDown32 was written with Delphi 3, the symbol table uploader was written in ANSI C using mingw32 (read: GCC with a Win32 twist). Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... James Dean taught Marc Bolan to drive. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Dec 18 16:27:36 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:27:36 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:43:21 EST." <20051218004321.0D3BDB6DA@xprdmailfe19.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: <200512182227.jBIMRavu016117@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Tim" wrote: > >I do not have an QBus ethernet card, just a Unibus one. yes, I realized later you had unibus, sorry. >I doubt I can access RCP as it's probably not part of the root install. But >I could be wrong. Why would it matter if I had a Qbus Ethernet card >or not? I just ment an ethernet of any kind. I think rcp is part of the route install. I was for 4.3 on the vax anyway. I could swear I did this for 2.11 also but I have used scsi. I can check. Basically all you need to do is bring up the interface with ifconfig and then rcp the tar file. in slightly more detail - make sure the ethernet is at a 'standard' address; if it is the kernel will find it when it probes at boot tim - ifconfig the interface (i.e. ifconfig qe0 192.168.0.1) - create the file system on the partition you want and mount it (this may take a little study. presuably you've got "/" created and loaded. You now want to create "/usr". You'll need to figure out which parition that is on your disk and then newfs the partition and then mount it) - rcp the tar file to the mounted partition. this might take a little linux goofying around, as you'll be root on the 11. So in /root on the linux box you'll have to create a .rhosts. My /root/.rhosts says "vax root" and I made an entry in /etc/hosts for "vax" with the same IP address I used for ifconfig above. - untar the file. This is essentially what the tape based installs are doing and should match (in flavor, at least) what the BSD install instructions say to do. -brad From tradde at excite.com Sun Dec 18 16:46:30 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:46:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update Message-ID: <20051218224630.79783B57F3@xprdmxin.myway.com> >I think rcp is part of the root install. It was for 4.3 on the vax >anyway. I could swear I did this for 2.11 also but I have used scsi. I will check. >Basically all you need to do is bring up the interface with >ifconfig and then rcp the tar file Where am I rcp'ing it from? The 11 is not connected to a network at least not yet. The linux box is standalone too. >Slightly more detail- make sure the ethernet is at a 'standard' >address; if it is the kernel will find it when it probes at boot >time- ifconfig the interface (i.e. ifconfig qe0 192.168.0.1). I believe it is set for the standard addresses. >Create the file system on the partition you want and mount it(this >may take a little study. Presuably you've got "/" created and >loaded. Yes, I have "/". I believe "/usr" exists too, but is mostly empty or is completely empty. >Rcp the tar file to the mounted partition. This might take a little >linux goofying around, as you'll be root on the 11. So in /root on >the linux box you'll have to create a .rhosts. I will look into this. Thanks. Tim R _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 18 17:03:28 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:03:28 +0000 Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <0IRP00M2PBXGP435@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRP00M2PBXGP435@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A5EAC0.3070701@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: > Once I went to great lenghts to put out a subsection of CP/M bios using > 765 for general interest and no particular use. The result, one moaned > about the assembler used (plain ASM), another was disappointed I didn't > use Z80 instructions and Opcodes, A two tried to tell me it can't work > (it was from the system that used/assembled it!). My response was and > is still FREE IMPLIES: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Caps inteneded.. Often > rather than getting mad accept it for what it is. FWIW, I've written a couple of synth plugins for Linux audio applications, both of which are based on Xsynth-DSSI original code. One of them emulates the analogue end of a Roland TB303 Bassline and is a pretty major rewrite, the other is a kind of vector/wavetable synth thing and was more of a quick proof-of-concept hack. I've only had a couple of emails about these, but they've all been along pretty positive lines, and occasionally suggestions for little tweaks to improve them. I suppose it depends on what kind of itch you're trying to scratch - if you're solving a (relatively) uncommon but hard problem, like writing a BIOS, then you may find that you run across people are more critical. Possibly because they can't sort it themselves. Gordon. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Dec 18 17:18:21 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:18:21 -0800 Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <20051217231603.JUFM9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> (Dave Dunfield's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:09:36 +0000") References: <20051217140426.SXAM3821.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051217231603.JUFM9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512182318.jBINILxu003137@lots.reanimators.org> Dave Dunfield wrote: > If this isn't good enough the for the classic community, then I guess this > has all been a mistake. Nah. ImageDisk isn't a Universal Solvent for this problem, but then it's a Hard Problem. BTW, belated thanks for your answers to my questions about ImageDisk on my previous go-round with it on HP150 stiffies. I haven't had time to poke at ImageDisk again, but the answer I took to heart was that the implementation of the PC floppy-disk system is sufficiently variable that reading HP150 stiffies isn't reliable across its whole range. So rather than try to build a workable configuration out of PC hardware, I figured I'd have more fun using classic hardware that was intended to be able to read HP150 stiffies, and that got me working on an HP Portable Plus and 9114B with which I am having some more success. And yeah, on my last go-round I was thinking it'd be nice to be able to read the source to find out what some of the messages I was seeing meant. They aren't in the printable documentation that comes in the archive, and it's hard to get at the built-in help when ImageDisk is busy chugging through the rest of the disk! But it's your code, you release it when you're ready. I don't have time to look at it right now, and might regret a promise to not use what I learn from it in code I might get around to writing someday. ... As an aside, it had crossed my mind to use the Portable Plus and 9114B to build ImageDisk-format image files, but looking at the Portable Plus Technical Reference, there's no well-documented way to read sectors from an HP-IL-attached disk. Bummer! -Frank McConnell From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 18 12:24:49 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:24:49 +0000 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512181905.jBIJ5bT0098255@lots.reanimators.org> References: (Zane H. Healy's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:14:35 -0800") Message-ID: <20051218232123.DJIN8316.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > One of these days I'd like to find a really high quality USB keyboard. > > While I do like keys tops that stay intact, I'm more concerned with > > with the keyboard not twisting easily, and keys that feel good when > > you push on them. > I'm liking the Matias TactilePro keyboard well enough (on an iMac G5). > But then I am also a Northgate OmniKey user (on PCs). The keys feel > and sound about right to me. > > Key cap logs are printed on top, not double-shot. > > -Frank McConnell Northgate Omnis, few old generics and all old Zenith keyboards (1980's to early 1990 era) used same switch assembies. Save them for replacement switches, unsolder two pins and pop them out of metal frame. IBM M keyboards are great. I still use and keep few for parts and back ups. By the way, I tried a generic ("Smart Adapter"; Ez-PU21) active PS/2 (keyboard & mouse) to USB adapter, works ok but not 90% perfect. Fails on BIOS, certain OSes. Which active PS/2-USB adapters that does WORK well? Cheers, Wizard From oldcomp at cox.net Sun Dec 18 17:28:10 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:28:10 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A5DCD2.2070909@atarimuseum.com> References: <011e8d554bf9a8ef0b5517456e37bc19@atarimuseum.com> <43A5D2CC.40105@cox.net> <43A5DCD2.2070909@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43A5F08A.8000809@cox.net> Don't appluad too loud, I just did the assembly work! :) -Bryan Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Very nicely done Bryan, doing all of that, its obvious that this was > about making a reproduction, not to try and fool people, I applaud your > efforts! :-) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 18 17:26:30 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:26:30 -0800 Subject: RL drive problems ...? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2257@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2257@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200512181526.30987.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hi Henk, On Sunday 18 December 2005 12:59, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi, > I would like to hear from the specialists what they have to say > about this problem. > > I finally got my 11/34C running again. It has an RL11 and has > two RL02 and one RL01 connected. Most of the time I cannot boot > RT11 from the RL02-DC, but sometimes the boot is successfull! > If the boot fails, I see the READY lamp of the drive flash once, > then the RUN light goes off, and the display shows 000004. BTW, > at the end of the RL drive chain is of course the terminator. Have you run the XXDP* 11/34A CPU and Memory diagnostics on your system? RT will sometimes randomly boot even with a somewhat "sick" CPU or Memory. After you know the CPU and memory are O.K. then: Isolate the drives - i.e., connect your RL controller to just one drive (of course, terminating the drive. Try this on each drive to insure that one drive isn't messing things up for the others. Finally, if it still won't boot reliably, run the RL02 XXDP* diagnostics. (* I'm assuming that you have another device capable of running XXDP other than the drives you're trying to get up. If not, I've found that XXDP will boot "easier" than RT on a "somewhat" sick system) > The cartridge was written while the system was still in my house > (some 3 years gao, at some 20" Celcius), but the system is now > in a 12" Celcius environment. Could the temperature difference > make the disk too difficult to read in the nwe conditions? I doubt that 8 degrees Celsius would make a difference... > When RT11 runs, and I only do a .DIR command of the disk, is > there something written to the disk? That could make the disk > "useless", because of the 20"/12" Celsius issues? Nothing is written to a disk when you do a DIR on RT. You can insure that your disk is not written by setting the write protect switch on (which I always do when testing RL0x drives or running non-RL diagnostics). > Another problem that I have since I have power for my systems > is that the READY lamp of the RL01 is *always* ON. > The FAULT lamp is OK - and is OFF. I have not yet investigated > this problem, but hints in advance are appreciated :-) > [would save me some time, to work on the other projects, like > the floppy disk interface for the 6809 Core Board...] Well, you've clearly got a "Bug" there - I don't have any "easy" solutions - except to check all the switches and logic that that are required to be "set" in order to get "ready". > BTW, the system worked fine, 3 years ago ... it has power since > a few weeks, and I had a lot of problem getting the 11/34C up > and running, but that would be a different story too ... > > greetz, > - Henk, PA8PDP Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 18 16:59:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:59:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A5006A.5060008@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 18, 5 00:23:38 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The really bad one in my experience is the CTR-80. This was supplied > > with some Model 1's and had a really nasty design bug. When turned off by > > the remote socket _in play mode_, the erase head would put a glitch on > > the tape. > > How do design glitches like that get past QA? (Or was there no QA?) Rememeber the CTR-80 wasn't designed for computer use. Maybe it was less serious on an audio recording (although the 'thump' was certainly audible!). > > One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still > running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. I've had to solder one kludgewire on a RAM board to repair a damaged track, and had to replace a couple of TTL chips in the processor. And of course my HP9100B calculators still work, although I've had to replace the odd transistor in those. > programing or game playing and the damn thing just runs. I can't say that for > my modern machines -- I had an ATX power supply die on my twice in 5 years > (had a 5 year warranty), and I've had modern drives fail quite spectacularly, > etc., etc. but I've been spoiled by most of my old machines. They just work. Yes, these machines were designed to last, were designed to be repaired (I was pointing out to a friend earlier today that the older machines had labelled testpoints and adjustments, etc). And they were much less 'built to a price' than the machines today. > > I mention all the above because it was a surprise to hear that a piece of old > consumer-level hardware had such a nasty flaw. > > > The work-around was to pull the remote-control plug and use it in manual > > control mode only. The fix, IIRC, was to solder a 10uF capacitor in > > parallel with the erase head. > > Confused -- why would that fix it? I beleive this thing used DC erase -- that is that the erase head was simply connected to a DC supply and became a permanent magnet in record mode. I can't rememebr how the glitch got to the head (maybe via decoupling capacitors, or something) in play mode, but connecting this capacitor in parallel with the head significantly reduced it. Incidentally, the Radio Shack cassette recorder I had the most success with for computer applications was a little white one, ran off 4 AA cells or a mains adapter (no built-in mains PSU), had a click-stop on the volume control that gave a good output level for most computers, and had a 3 position slide switch to over-ride the remote control input. I forget the model number. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 18 17:03:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:03:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512180022580905.356DA8A4@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 18, 5 00:22:58 am Message-ID: > I think the short answer is "second sources"--you had at least 4 big > players, TI, National, Moto and Fairchild all producing 7400-series logic. > Some of the earlier TTL (Moto 400/500-series) had mid-line (pins 4 and10) As do some 74xx parts (7490, for exmaple). And IIRC some of the later high-speed (ALS, F, etc) parts went hack to middle power pins because it gave shorted connections to the decoupling capacitor. > power supplies, which turned out to be not as convienient for PCB layout. > And, although it's largely forgotten, 7400 TTL shares a fair number of > pinouts with the older DTL circuits. > > By the time LSTTL was out, everyone had pretty much standardized on the > 74xx line. Juat watch out for some 74Hxx numbers (used in 1970's HP calculators, maybe minicomputers). Those can have pinouts very different from the 74xx device of the same number. There are even a few 74xx and 74LSxx parts with different pinouts (the 7451 being the most obvious example). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 18 17:49:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:49:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <200512182318.jBINILxu003137@lots.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Dec 18, 5 03:18:21 pm Message-ID: > BTW, belated thanks for your answers to my questions about ImageDisk > on my previous go-round with it on HP150 stiffies. > > I haven't had time to poke at ImageDisk again, but the answer I took > to heart was that the implementation of the PC floppy-disk system is > sufficiently variable that reading HP150 stiffies isn't reliable AFAIK all HP150 disks are double-density. Certainly the schematics for the 9114 imply that unit can _only_ operate in double density mode, and I think the same is true for the HPIB-interfaced drive units. That makes life a little easier for you, since all PC disk controllers can handle that. The big problem with HP disk units is that there was some intellegence in the drive units (IIRC a 68x09 processor) and they did things like bad track replacement _trnasparently to the user_. If a double-sided disk is 'perfect' (no bad tracks), then phgysical cylinders 0-76 are used for user data, 77 and 78 are unformatted, and 79 contains something that indicates there are no track replacements, the usage counter, etc. From what I can see, this was never documented in any HP manual. When I wrote programs to read 9114 disks on a PC, I have to admit I ignored this, and just imaged cylinders 0 to 76. When dumping back, I assumed a perfect disk that had been formated on the HP drive, and just wrote cylinders 0 to 76. Amazingly nobody seems to have had problems from this. > As an aside, it had crossed my mind to use the Portable Plus and > 9114B to build ImageDisk-format image files, but looking at the > Portable Plus Technical Reference, there's no well-documented way > to read sectors from an HP-IL-attached disk. Bummer! I am not sure how general the 9114 can be -- I've only ever used it to produce disks with 16 256-byte sectors per track. And to do that you can use a command set called 'Modified Filbert Protocol'. This is a superset of the commands to the 82161 tape drive (codenamed Filbert, of course), which are documented in the manual for that product. The best way to find out the extensions is to read the HP71 HPIL IDS volumes, and the HP75C ROM source and comentary. I spent many a long night doing just that... >From what I rmember of the Portable Plus, you can take over the HPIL system and sent arbitrarly DDT and DDL commands (which is what you need to do). Just don;t do it on any disk you expect to be using from MS-DOS... If you think you might find useful stuff in my 9114 disk reading programs, feel free to take a look, They're on hpcc.org somewhere, they're GPLed C sources. If you can't find them, I'll mail you a tar archive or something. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 18:10:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:10:12 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512181610120972.38D0E2DA@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 11:03 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Juat watch out for some 74Hxx numbers (used in 1970's HP calculators, >maybe minicomputers). Those can have pinouts very different from the 74xx >device of the same number. There are even a few 74xx and 74LSxx parts >with different pinouts (the 7451 being the most obvious example). ...and then there are parts like the 74L85/74C85 with wildly different pinouts from the 85, LS85, ALS85, HCT85, etc... Another thing to be aware of is that while pinouts may be the same for parts, functionality may be quite different. Case in point: the pedestrial 74107 JK FF; the 74107 is level-triggered; the LS107is edge-triggered. It can make a big difference in some applications. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Dec 18 18:43:21 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:43:21 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <20051218232123.DJIN8316.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: (Zane H. Healy's message of "Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:14:35 -0800") <20051218232123.DJIN8316.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <43A60229.9090901@gmail.com> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > By the way, I tried a generic ("Smart Adapter"; Ez-PU21) active PS/2 > (keyboard & mouse) to USB adapter, works ok but not 90% perfect. > Fails on BIOS, certain OSes. Which active PS/2-USB adapters that > does WORK well? http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184 Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 18 19:06:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:06:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <43A52395.5010801@pacbell.net> References: <43A4D37E.9060106@pacbell.net> <200512180642.BAA28992@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A52395.5010801@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200512190113.UAA02481@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > der Mouse, there are too many pronouns and not enough attribution for > me to answer with confidence as I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, I realize now that the way I wrote it, it reads as though I'm conflating you with Dave. I was saying - er, trying to say - that Dave's stance on his source code has taken him down a few notches in my eyes (not as totally as Tony's phrasing implies is the case for him, but certainly some). I was also pointing out, in response to the "until you do it yourself, you're just posturing" reply, that I have "done it myself" for a lot of other problems, but not that specific one. Then I was asking whether that makes me the same kind of poseur that Tony's remark apparently made him. In, um, your, I think, eyes. > Dave, for his own reasons, decided the time isn't right for him to > release the source code. Would we be better off if he just sat on it > until that time? Would we? I don't know. I can see arguments both ways. But that has little to do with how his doing a binary-only release affects my opinion of him, or whether my having that reaction means I'm "just posturing". As far as I can see, at least. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Dec 18 19:18:36 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 01:18:36 +0000 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <200512181412030147.3864B480@10.0.0.252> References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051218110648.0a2c0add.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512181601.03301.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200512181412030147.3864B480@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A60A6C.4070106@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > later). He replied that they make up a care kit with 2 of everything and > place it safely away inside the console. I opined that this hardly seemed ETC lighting desks come with a little ziplock bag tucked away inside with some spare fuses, spare triacs (I think) and a spare boot disk. Genius. Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 18 19:26:40 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:26:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> References: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200512190129.UAA02593@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] and in Dave's case, it's his freaking software. He can do with > it whatever he likes. If he doesn't want to release the source, then > people like Tony can take a chill pill. Absolutely. But, conversely, if we (FSVO "we") want to think less of him for choosing that way, that's up to us. > Just because it's non-commercial doesn't mean it should be open > source. Not in general, but I think it does when the reason given for not releasing the source is that it enables (as in "makes easier") the creation of commercial competitors - and as that was one of the reasons given upthread, I think it's not an entirely unfair thing to say. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marvin at rain.org Sun Dec 18 19:29:57 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:29:57 -0800 Subject: Found the system model! Was Re: Need BIOS setup utility Message-ID: <43A60D15.D92D2F30@rain.org> Hmmm, I thought that the need for an external utility to set up the CMOS went away with the 286. IIRC, Cntl/Alt/Ins was used on the/some Phoenix BIOS chipset(s) to gain access to the CMOS setup routines. There were several other such keystroke sequences but the only other one that comes to mind was Cntl/Alt/S. Also, I *think* that the IBM Diagnostics will also work and might be enough to take away the boot error (excepting that it doesn't support the 47 HD types used in most of the later BIOSs.) charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a Vobis LCD-386: > > http://www.hknebel.org/Museum/Museum/Tragbare_PCs/Nicht_IBM_PCs/Vobis_LCD386/vobis_lcd386.htm > > There was one on eBay early this month, too. Item # 8730903874 > > Now I just need to find some docs on the board. There are several > jumper sets on the motherboard, and none of them labeled, so I don't > know how to zap the BIOS yet. > > And yes, I can even boot from hard disk. The generic Phoenix BIOS > setup.com from the old www.firmware.com site lets me set floppy, HDD, > and date settings, it's just not stopping the boottime error. > > > Doc From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Dec 18 19:32:47 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:32:47 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist DECnet Network - Update In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 Dec 2005 17:46:30 EST." <20051218224630.79783B57F3@xprdmxin.myway.com> Message-ID: <200512190132.jBJ1WlUr013599@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Tim" wrote: > >Where am I rcp'ing it from? The 11 is not connected to a network >at least not yet. The linux box is standalone too. Well, I would connect them both to the same net via hub. I'd rcp from /root on the linux box. >I believe it is set for the standard addresses. you should see it probed at boot time then. I believe it will print out the mac address (the physical address in 00:00:00:00:00:00 form) >Yes, I have "/". I believe "/usr" exists too, but is mostly empty or >is completely empty. generally /usr exist on the root directory, but it's only used as a mount point. that is, you'll mount another disk partition "on top" of that directory. something like "mount /dev/rra0g /usr" I can't remember the exact device names, it depends on the disk controller and paritition (the partitions all have letters, a,b,c,d,... but the space on the disk they refer to is arbitrary. Generally the 'a' partition is for root, b for swap, c is the entire disk, etc... >I will look into this. Thanks. I don't mind going through it in excrutiating detail as I just did it on an 11/73 qbus machine to build up a disk I want to boot on my unibus 11/44. The 11/73 working like a champ but the 11/44 has had 'issues' but is close... -brad From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 20:34:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:34:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Funny TTL pinouts (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS) In-Reply-To: <200512181554.40542.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: > Know of any good references for crossing some of this stuff? D.A.T.A. books, if you can find a complete set. It is our Rosetta stone. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 20:40:41 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:40:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A5C623.2040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > And what else do you have for 17 cents a lb ... 17 cents a pound is what I last got for mixed scrap plastic DIPs from the gold man. > Has anybody made a computer with such a small range of components? > ( I know of the Apollo > guideance computer already) The original run of Crays (Cray-1, -1M and 1S) were made from a very small number of types. I think the original was made with just four different chips in very large numbers: some simple gates, some more simple gates, a flipflop, and a memory cell. Pretty dumb idea, but Cray often "had to be different". I think the original machines could have benefitted by using a wider range of parts (like MECL III) - certainly the chip count would have gone way down. William Donzelli aw288 at Osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 20:02:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:02:13 -0800 Subject: Found the system model! Was Re: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <43A60D15.D92D2F30@rain.org> References: <43A60D15.D92D2F30@rain.org> Message-ID: <200512181802130633.39376F2C@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 5:29 PM Marvin Johnston wrote: >Hmmm, I thought that the need for an external utility to set up the CMOS >went away with the 286. IIRC, Cntl/Alt/Ins was used on the/some Phoenix >BIOS chipset(s) to gain access to the CMOS setup routines. There were >several other such keystroke sequences but the only other one that comes >to mind was Cntl/Alt/S. Also, I *think* that the IBM Diagnostics will >also work and might be enough to take away the boot error (excepting >that it doesn't support the 47 HD types used in most of the later >BIOSs.) Well, it's certainly worth trying all of the combinations: Del AMI, AWARD ESC Toshiba F1 Toshiba, Phoenix and later models from Late model PS/1 Value Point and 330s F2 NEC, Dell F10 Compaq Ins IBM PS/2s Alt+Return Dell Alt+"?" some PS/2-Models Ctrl+Esc General Ctrl+Ins some PS/2-Models Ctrl+Alt+Esc AST Advantage, Award, Tandon Ctrl+Alt+"+" General Ctrl+Alt+S Phoenix Ctrl+Alt+Ins Zenith, Phoenix Ctrl+S Phoenix Ctrl+Shift+Esc Tandon 386er Ctrl+Shift+Alt +Del(num.Keypad) Olivetti PC Pro But I've also had a 386 with setup diskette--I remember keeping a copy of it taped to the inside of the case (a good place for MB jumper settings and other nicities, too). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 21:58:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 19:58:34 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512181958340725.39A1F277@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 9:40 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Pretty dumb idea, but Cray often "had to be different". I think the >original machines could have benefitted by using a wider range of parts >(like MECL III) - certainly the chip count would have gone way down. I recall Neil Lincoln talking about the "box of Chiclets" approach to designing the Cyber 205--something like only 11 or 13 different IC types. FWIW, I don't know how many types the finished product had, but a small number of different types of packages was definitely in the air those days... On the opposite extreme, I can remember looking at the various databooks and seeing something like a SN74LS302985 "13-bit LFSR with parity and tristate complemented outputs with bottle opener" and thinking it would just be PERFECT for what I had in mind--if only there were a second source or three. Then, as now, it wasn't uncommon to "pre announce" a chip that never made it into production. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Dec 18 22:15:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:15:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512181958340725.39A1F277@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > > I recall Neil Lincoln talking about the "box of Chiclets" approach to > designing the Cyber 205--something like only 11 or 13 different IC types. > FWIW, I don't know how many types the finished product had, but a small > number of different types of packages was definitely in the air those > days... I seem to recall that the 205 was indeed made of a relative handful of chip types, based off a standard simple gate array. I do not know who fabbed the things. Too bad no complete (or even remotely complete) 205s exist. Now that's a knoife.. Anyway, 11 or 13 is way more than the (effectively) 3 types used in the Cray-1. None of the ECL families were very big anyway, not the hundreds of functions that TTL or CMOS did. > On the opposite extreme, I can remember looking at the various databooks > and seeing something like a SN74LS302985 "13-bit LFSR with parity and > tristate complemented outputs with bottle opener" and thinking it would > just be PERFECT for what I had in mind--if only there were a second source > or three. Then, as now, it wasn't uncommon to "pre announce" a chip that > never made it into production. Quite a lot of the really oddball parts that get into databooks are probably customer specific - at least this is how the transistor industry was. A customer would request a small tweak of a standard part - maybe even so small that the fab process did not even change, but the tests did - and BANG, a new number was registered. The tube guys played this game as well. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 22:37:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:37:16 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512182037160621.39C56030@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 11:15 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I seem to recall that the 205 was indeed made of a relative handful of >chip types, based off a standard simple gate array. I do not know who >fabbed the things. I believe it may have been Fairchild. IIRC, the "proof of concept" was a 6400 CPU made out of the things at ADL. I can't recall how many PCBs were involved, but I seem to recall being impressed at the relatively low board count. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 18 22:56:51 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:56:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paging Dave Dunfield... Message-ID: <200512190500.AAA03444@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> ...I tried to reply to your off-list email, but the "other" address you gave me a while ago when I discovered that dunfield.com uses SORBS no longer works: <<< 550 <[snipped]>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table Suggestions? The address in question is the one with MD5 hash ce3697e25f0e9847577453bfb530cce5 (no trailing newline, domain all lowercase) - I snipped it above because I don't know if you mind its being distributed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 18 23:40:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:40:45 -0800 Subject: Intel USB chip Message-ID: <200512182140450057.39FF7C26@10.0.0.252> Hi Ethan, Hope you're keeping yourself amused down there! At any rate, the trick to finding information on the Intel USB chip is knowing the shorthand used to talk about the darned things. Since they're not in production, this is becoming a lost art, it seems. Try googling on 8x930xx - you'll get a number of good hits, including the complete schematics for the Intel USB prototyping kit. If you want chip docs, try googling on 8x930ax and one of the hits will be: http://www.suid0.net/fhtw/doc/specs/ic/bridge/i8x930ax.pdf which is the user's manual for the chip, all 16 chapters and 4 appendices of it. Whatever you discover, let me know--I still have most of a case of these things... Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Dec 19 00:37:16 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 22:37:16 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A6551C.2010302@pacbell.net> William Donzelli wrote: > The original run of Crays (Cray-1, -1M and 1S) were made from a very small > number of types. I think the original was made with just four different > chips in very large numbers: some simple gates, some more simple gates, a > flipflop, and a memory cell. > > Pretty dumb idea, but Cray often "had to be different". I think the > original machines could have benefitted by using a wider range of parts > (like MECL III) - certainly the chip count would have gone way down. I recall reading that the Cray-1 used balanced logic circuits, in which a complementary pair of a signal and its complement were always generated, and each fed a terminated transmission line. The idea was that the machine drew essentially constant current regardless of its logic state. Perhaps this placed constraints on the chips that could be used, as most MSI functions are not implemented in such a perfectly symmetric fashion. --Bill From lmawtuix at cybermedmarketing.com Sun Dec 18 09:50:07 2005 From: lmawtuix at cybermedmarketing.com (Lina Guevara) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 15:50:07 +0000 Subject: NEWS FOR cctech Message-ID: <000a$01ee78c7$06d7ccd2@00cl76thy974u9f> Massive Gains Alert For Monday December 16th The Solvis Group $10.6 Million in Revenues in Fourth Quarter Ended Sept. 30, 2005 OTC: SLVG Price: .07 Huge PR Campaign For Mondays's Trading SLVG Is it Going to Explode Higher From Here? If You Think So, Climb On Board!! RECENT NEWS: Go Read The Full Stories Right Now!! 1)The Solvis Group Announces $10.6 Million in Revenues in Fourth Quarter Ended Sept. 30, 2005 2)The Solvis Group Announces Plans to Distribute Global Food Technologies Stock to Its Shareholders 3)The Solvis Group Strategic Alliance Agreement With SSL Expected to Provide $25 Million in Additional Revenues in 90 Days Watch This One Trade on Friday! Huge Revenues for a Little Stock, Right? Radar it Right Now...... Go SLVG. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 18 18:44:29 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:44:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: repairing early HP calcs Message-ID: <20051219004429.14094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I dont own any. But according to a recent Circuit Cellar article, early ics can be easy to implement in a FPGA. Dont have the issue in front of me, but the guy needed to mimic if you will a crt controller. Therefore could the chips used in the early HPs (maybe up to and including the 41 series?) be readily emulated by an FPGA? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 19 01:26:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:26:49 -0700 Subject: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <20051219004429.14094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051219004429.14094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43A660B9.2040403@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: >I dont own any. But according to a recent Circuit >Cellar article, early ics can be easy to implement in >a FPGA. Dont have the issue in front of me, but the >guy needed to mimic if you will a crt controller. >Therefore could the chips used in the early HPs (maybe >up to and including the 41 series?) be readily >emulated by an FPGA? > > > CPLD's are a better part as most FPGA's require pre-load from rom. Still you need the original hardware and docs to create a FPGA design. Some designers played often some nasty tricks with hardware. I think for example in the TRS 80 /I a 7400 with a defective unused gate was used because it was cheaper than a working 7400. >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 19 02:18:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 03:18:31 -0500 Subject: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <20051219004429.14094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c60474$cd296f40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> You should check out the "Discussion & Guest Areas" section of the hpmuseum.org site. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:44 PM To: tech Subject: repairing early HP calcs I dont own any. But according to a recent Circuit Cellar article, early ics can be easy to implement in a FPGA. Dont have the issue in front of me, but the guy needed to mimic if you will a crt controller. Therefore could the chips used in the early HPs (maybe up to and including the 41 series?) be readily emulated by an FPGA? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 02:18:18 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:18:18 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A6551C.2010302@pacbell.net> References: <43A6551C.2010302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200512190018180254.3A8FB98C@10.0.0.252> On 12/18/2005 at 10:37 PM William Maddox wrote: >I recall reading that the Cray-1 used balanced logic circuits, in which >a complementary pair of a signal and its complement were always >generated, and each fed a terminated transmission line. The idea was >that the machine drew essentially constant current regardless of its >logic state. Perhaps this placed constraints on the chips that could be >used, as most MSI functions are not implemented in such a perfectly >symmetric fashion. LVDS uses the same scheme of being differential throughout and even ECL uses differential outputs (even if only one of them is actually brought out to a pin). CML goes back to the 60's. Cheers, Chuck From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon Dec 19 03:17:39 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:17:39 +1300 Subject: Norbits (was Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325) References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net><43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <179a01c6047d$0f19ccd0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" snip--- > > Want to get even more obscure? I worked on some machinery a while > back (QUITE > a while back :-) that used some logic parts made by Amperex that > they called > "Norbits" -- these things were HUGE compared to normal DIPs and all > of them > had an odd number of pins, typically 17 though some had other > numbers. I > might even still have some data on those around someplace. IIRC Norbits were a Philips idea - blocks of epoxy in various colours depending on the implemented logical function - which was implemented internally with discretes. Aimed at the market that uses PLCs these days - a good idea at the time, but not widely used. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16/12/2005 From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 05:07:56 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:07:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: repairing early HP calcs Message-ID: <15701446.1134990477260.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> just a note... CPLDs are easier because the EEPROM config is inside the chip (no external hardware and an easy to use interface). The cost of this is available logic density though. You will always get more FGA logic space available then you will with a CPLD. Of course, you can always add more CPLDs, but one FPGA and a 8 pin dip eeprom is less PCB real estate. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: woodelf >Sent: Dec 19, 2005 2:26 AM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: repairing early HP calcs > >Chris M wrote: > >>I dont own any. But according to a recent Circuit >>Cellar article, early ics can be easy to implement in >>a FPGA. Dont have the issue in front of me, but the >>guy needed to mimic if you will a crt controller. >>Therefore could the chips used in the early HPs (maybe >>up to and including the 41 series?) be readily >>emulated by an FPGA? >> >> >> >CPLD's are a better part as most FPGA's require pre-load from rom. >Still you need the original hardware and docs to create a FPGA design. >Some designers played often some nasty tricks with hardware. >I think for example in the TRS 80 /I a 7400 with a defective unused >gate was used because it was cheaper than a working 7400. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Dec 19 05:23:04 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:23:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? Message-ID: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> Stan Barr wrote: > (...) Open Firmware - a superset of ANS-Standard Forth used for > detecting and setting up the hardware etc. on Sun, Apple and some > IBM machines. It can be accessed from the console as well, allowing > you to probe and set up hardware manually should you need to, or > as a normal Forth of course... This seems like a good time to tap into the collective knowledge on this list once more... I have a question regarding Sun OpenFirmware that's been bugging me for some time now. I'm still struggling for a setup that allows a Sun to netboot off a Windows 9x PC (just get a bootstrap, no fancy NFS exports required). I'm making do with SuSE Linux 7.0 dual-boot right now, but that's not it. What I'm imagining here is to have a look at the code that is responsible for the netbooting operation of the Sun. Why does it have to obtain the machine's IP, that of the tftp server and what else via rarp? I'm by no means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can define your own FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could modify the boot code to use parameters stored in environment variables, either if a flag "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback if there's no rarp server around. I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, and I had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often spits out hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and I've yet to understand what they mean; the manual addresses the problem only far enough to tell that this doesn't happen if words are defined with the "headers" directive. If somebody has been involved with FCode stuff far enough to give me some initial guidance, please contact me. Thanks in Advance. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 05:26:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:26:08 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still >> running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby > > Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I remember the discussions a while back about age of list members, but I don't recall ever seeing a similar one about age of collections! Not having all the peripherals that would have perhaps originally gone with the machine is acceptable I think (I can see some people having room for a mainframe and control desk, but probably not for a bazillion tape / drum units to go with it!). But other than that, make it complete (i.e. things like the single rack of EDSAC that we have - whilst perhaps "operational" - doesn't count :) (I'd quite like to hear responses from people with analogue machines too, but someone else will be able to define qualifying rules much better than I can) Just out of curiosity! cheers Jules From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 05:56:41 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:56:41 +0000 Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> References: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640512190356x85d736bm@mail.gmail.com> On 19/12/05, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Stan Barr wrote: > > > (...) Open Firmware - a superset of ANS-Standard Forth used for > > detecting and setting up the hardware etc. on Sun, Apple and some > > IBM machines. It can be accessed from the console as well, allowing > > you to probe and set up hardware manually should you need to, or > > as a normal Forth of course... > > This seems like a good time to tap into the collective knowledge on this > list once more... > > I have a question regarding Sun OpenFirmware that's been bugging me for > some time now. I'm still struggling for a setup that allows a Sun to netboot > off a Windows 9x PC (just get a bootstrap, no fancy NFS exports required). > I'm making do with SuSE Linux 7.0 dual-boot right now, but that's not it. > > What I'm imagining here is to have a look at the code that is responsible > for the netbooting operation of the Sun. Why does it have to obtain the > machine's IP, that of the tftp server and what else via rarp? I'm by no > means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can define your own > FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could modify the boot code to > use parameters stored in environment variables, either if a flag > "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback if there's no rarp server around. > > I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, and I > had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often spits out > hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and I've yet to > understand what they mean; the manual addresses the problem only far enough > to tell that this doesn't happen if words are defined with the "headers" > directive. > > If somebody has been involved with FCode stuff far enough to give me some > initial guidance, please contact me. Thanks in Advance. > > Yours sincerely, > > -- > Arno Kletzander > Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen > www.iser.uni-erlangen.de > > Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? > NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie > I can't really help you directly, but I have had no problems booting sun machines from windows using vmware and virtual pc. I also have netbsd installed on simh vax, which I used to boot an octane a while back. I guess that cygwin would probably do the job as well. Unless you really want to spend time playing with open firmwire, it might be easier. Dan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 06:03:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:03:23 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) Message-ID: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:26:08 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > PDP-8F manufacture date 1973. Running! However will the owner of that nice looking PB250 step up.. he's back around 1961. Allison From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Dec 19 06:05:01 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 04:05:01 -0800 Subject: Teletype 43 manual In-Reply-To: <2b4ab12b314a.2b314a2b4ab1@direcway.com> References: <2b4ab12b314a.2b314a2b4ab1@direcway.com> Message-ID: <43A6A1ED.8040207@pacbell.net> charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > I have acquired a KSR 43 and am looking for a manual. I've looked in the usual online archives (and printed-manual resellers too) Can anyone help? > > Also I'm looking for a tape punch and the complete top cover assembly for an ASR 33. > > thanks > Charles Hi, Charles. I offered to scan the KSR 43 manual for you some time ago, and then forgot about it. I've got it scanned now, and you can grab it at: ftp://harlie.org/ksr43.tif If you'd rather havea a pdf, there's one there too, but it was converted from the tiff file using evaluation software, and has an annoying watermark on it. Best regards, Bill Maddox From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 06:52:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:52:30 +0000 Subject: Intel USB chip In-Reply-To: <200512182140450057.39FF7C26@10.0.0.252> References: <200512182140450057.39FF7C26@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hi Ethan, > > At any rate, the trick to finding information on the Intel USB chip is > knowing the shorthand used to talk about the darned things... > Try googling on 8x930xx - you'll get a number of good hits, including the > complete schematics for the Intel USB prototyping kit. Ah... that helps loads. Unfortunately, the chip is so old that many of the 'hits' I've found are dead ends. This one in particular looked interesting, but it's not there anymore. :-( smartdata.usbid.com/datasheets/usbid/27302401.pdf > If you want chip docs, try googling on 8x930ax and one of the hits will be: > > http://www.suid0.net/fhtw/doc/specs/ic/bridge/i8x930ax.pdf Wow! That's a detailed reference - I think it'll be handy to reverse-engineer the I/O on the board (switches, LEDs, and rotary encoder). -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 06:57:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:57:11 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) >> From: Jules Richardson >> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:26:08 +0000 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > > PDP-8F manufacture date 1973. Running! That's what we like to hear! :) > However will the owner of that nice looking PB250 step up.. he's back around 1961. Ahh, that's earlier than our Marconi TAC then (1963 IIRC, although designed in the late 50's). Not sure what we have that's earlier and qualifies. The Elliott 803 is late 1950's (1958 I think) but has a core fault so doesn't count as working until someone finds the time to fix it! It's probably the earliest complete machine that we have though; prior to that we just have small bits of some of the earlier famous* machines. *famous in the UK at least. I confess to being rather clueless as to what was going on in the rest of the world between the late 1940's (post ENIAC) and early 1970's. It seems that Japan certainly had a reasonably successful computer development industry in the 1960's, but I've come across very little documenting what was going on in the rest of the world during those years (even in the US to be honest, other than knowing some of DEC's history) cheers Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 19 07:09:36 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:09:36 +0100 Subject: Free BIOS (was Resources for DOS (was: DOS Compatable OS)) In-Reply-To: <000401c60265$dd8485c0$0401010a@jfcl.com> References: <43A305DA.9871.7C54EBDB@localhost> Message-ID: <43A6BF20.5884.8AE0A5C8@localhost> Hi Bob, Am 16 Dec 2005 9:26 meinte Robert Armstrong: > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/freebios/ > This is probably the best bet for me - I was thinking of something that > could run FreeDOS on a PC/XT type platform. No chipsets; no fancy CPUs... Shure, but to me it seams dead since quite some time. > > The BIOS is written in Forth > A BIOS written in Forth? I dunno - I don't want to start any flame wars, > but I'm just not comfortable with that :-) Well, I'm not a Forth evangelist either, but it got it's mertoots. to adapt it to a new CPU, all you need is to write a rather compact core interpreter and a few low level access routines. Of course it doesn't free you from adding CPU and hardware specific code (in Forth) when using on a new machine, but all Hardware that is already covered can be used right away. Atempts like that has been done several times, and if you own certain IBM or Mac (PPC) or Sparc computers, your machine might already use it. The non-x86 world is always lacking hardware, and adding a bus like PCI does only allow to plug in a card without killing the machine - without drivers it eats capacity of your power supply (in best cenario, in worst, it slows down or blocks the bus by not beeing properly initialized). Here the Open Firmware (IIRC IBM, Motorola, Sun and HP where involved) initiative jumped in, by defining a standard where the machine is supposed to have a forth interpreter in ROM (or wherever the boot and initialize software is) that is used to execute a set of Forth programms to initialize the card. As an extension a set of 'entry points' to do basic I/O funcionality was also defined. The goal was to be able to plug any Open Firmware card into any of the machines and have it properly initialized and recognized by the OS, and in case of certain cards (for exampel graphic) be even used with a basic functionality without loading card specific drivers. At least enough to get the system up and running. I would realy favour the Forth solution over anything else. > > Now, a complete different aproach here is LinuxBIOS > Which, I assume, is unable to run FreeDOS or, indeed, anything except > Linux ... Na, just the other way arround. Shure, a Linux gets loaded, but this can go straight to boot a Windows, or DOS. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 07:27:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:27:17 +0000 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 12/18/05, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Want to get even more obscure? I worked on some machinery a while back (QUITE > a while back :-) that used some logic parts made by Amperex that they called > "Norbits" http://www.akh.se/tubes/pix/norbits.jpg From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 07:45:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:45:29 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) Message-ID: <0IRQ00CMLZISEDM5@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:57:11 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >>> Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) >>> From: Jules Richardson >>> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:26:08 +0000 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >> >> PDP-8F manufacture date 1973. Running! > >That's what we like to hear! :) > >> However will the owner of that nice looking PB250 step up.. he's back around 1961. > >Ahh, that's earlier than our Marconi TAC then (1963 IIRC, although designed in >the late 50's). > >Not sure what we have that's earlier and qualifies. The Elliott 803 is late >1950's (1958 I think) but has a core fault so doesn't count as working until >someone finds the time to fix it! It's probably the earliest complete machine >that we have though; prior to that we just have small bits of some of the >earlier famous* machines. Whirlwind, SAGE, IBM, Univac, SperryRand Frieden are names that come to mind. from the time orf Eniac to 1960 there were a great number of companies and machines some quite unique other more functional. The IBM 500 and 700 series are examples of the latter. Allison From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 19 08:09:56 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:09:56 +0100 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A4CC14.5080205@cox.net> References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> Message-ID: <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> Am 17 Dec 2005 19:40 meinte Bryan K. Blackburn: > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > Really cool, just the same. Well, neat. Cool! And congratulation to your great work. >From a colectors viwpoint I'm quite concerned because of the good work. While Vince' Replika-1 has all the fun but different looks, yours may be directly taken as the real thing. The only difference I spotet beside chip dates and capacitors (which could be because it's an refurbished one), is the missing copyright line below 'Apple Computer 1'. I fear that in a very short time your boards (I assume you made more than one) will show up anounced as the real thing. With a little effort the missing line can be added - but even without, it's so close, that most non experts (and most self proclaimed) will take it as genuine Apple 1. Beside all the hassles for people that might pay 1+ grand for it while beliveing to make a bargain, just to realize at some point that they got framed. This might cause real damage to our hobby. But beside that people unknowingly selling one (hafter having bought one from a guy not been told that it's a Replica) follow the trail to you and add your name in a civil case, in a lot of countries this might be egliable for a criminal case. With a look at the board and your advertisement (eBay) it might be hard for any lawyer to argue that you realy did go all the length to make shure that everybody understands that it is a copy, and not an Apple 1 from Apple Computer. Recent efforts to crack down on product pirates (stron support from the US) added laws, in some countries, where the prosecutor does not need any complain by the trademark/copyright holder to go after a suspect. I perfectly understand how proud you are about your work, and I can just repeat how much I apreciate and like it. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 08:15:44 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:15:44 +0800 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/19/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still > >> running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby > > > > Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. > > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned > by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - I have a PDP-8/E (1970) and 8/M (1972) operational. I guess among the DEC fans, the classic-8 (1965) owners would be amongst the top...curious to know of any operational PDPs prior to the classic-8s? (the PDP-1 in CHM doesn't count! :-) Hmmm...I also remember someone scored on a LGP, but forgot whether it's operational or not.. /wai-sun From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 19 08:11:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:11:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> References: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200512191416.JAA16044@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a question regarding Sun OpenFirmware that's been bugging me > for some time now. [...] > What I'm imagining here is to have a look at the code that is > responsible for the netbooting operation of the Sun. Why does it > have to obtain the machine's IP, that of the tftp server and what > else via rarp? It can't obtain anything but its own address via rarp. It normally gets its TFTP server's address via bootparams, I think, at least for older machines (newer ones may use something else for all I know). It's possible that it initially queries whoever answered its RARP, but if it gets no answer it broadcasts the query - and I think it broadcasts the TFTP request too if necessary. > I'm by no means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can > define your own FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could > modify the boot code to use parameters stored in environment > variables, either if a flag "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback > if there's no rarp server around. Yes, except that the space available in the NVRAM is fairly limited as I understand it. > I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, > and I had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often > spits out hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and > I've yet to understand what they mean; They appear to be some kind of headerless something. There's one of the words internal to see that can deal with them - (see or some such - and you can use it as in ok see foo ... (f28470c0) ... ok f284709c0 (see ... that word ... (or whatever the internal word is - it's visible in "see see"). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From oldcomp at cox.net Mon Dec 19 08:30:32 2005 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:30:32 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> Message-ID: <43A6C408.5000909@cox.net> First of all I guess I haven't been clear. I apologize for that. I have answered several private emails on the topic, not realizing that none were going to the list: The boards were made by Stephen Gabaly, who brought us the Mark-8 replicas. He also supplied the bulk of the parts. He will be offering more kits, probably between $400-600 each depending on the included parts. I have no further information. My biggest contribution is just assembling the machine, and troubleshooting some component incompatibilities. I have to agree totally with all of your points, because I felt the same way when the Mark-8 kits began showing up everywhere; but when it came down to it, I know I will never own a real Apple 1, unless it is a reproduction of one kind or another. So I made two, one for me and one to sell, figuring that there were many without the skill to assemble one themselves. -Bryan Hans Franke wrote: > Well, neat. Cool! And congratulation to your great work. > >>From a colectors viwpoint I'm quite concerned because of the good > work. While Vince' Replika-1 has all the fun but different looks, > yours may be directly taken as the real thing. The only difference > I spotet beside chip dates and capacitors (which could be because > it's an refurbished one), is the missing copyright line below > 'Apple Computer 1'. > > I fear that in a very short time your boards (I assume you made > more than one) will show up anounced as the real thing. With a > little effort the missing line can be added - but even without, > it's so close, that most non experts (and most self proclaimed) > will take it as genuine Apple 1. Beside all the hassles for people > that might pay 1+ grand for it while beliveing to make a bargain, > just to realize at some point that they got framed. > > This might cause real damage to our hobby. But beside that people > unknowingly selling one (hafter having bought one from a guy not > been told that it's a Replica) follow the trail to you and add your > name in a civil case, in a lot of countries this might be egliable > for a criminal case. With a look at the board and your advertisement > (eBay) it might be hard for any lawyer to argue that you realy did > go all the length to make shure that everybody understands that it > is a copy, and not an Apple 1 from Apple Computer. > > Recent efforts to crack down on product pirates (stron support > from the US) added laws, in some countries, where the prosecutor > does not need any complain by the trademark/copyright holder > to go after a suspect. > > I perfectly understand how proud you are about your work, and I > can just repeat how much I apreciate and like it. > > Gruss > H. > -- > VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 08:49:25 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:49:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <43A6551C.2010302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > I recall reading that the Cray-1 used balanced logic circuits, in which > a complementary pair of a signal and its complement were always > generated, and each fed a terminated transmission line. The idea was > that the machine drew essentially constant current regardless of its > logic state. Perhaps this placed constraints on the chips that could be > used, as most MSI functions are not implemented in such a perfectly > symmetric fashion. Complementary outputs are basically a bonus with ECL, due to the circuit design. In the standard families, often only one output is brought out on complex functions, but on most of the simple functions (gates, muxes, etc.) both a brought out. Damn handy, actually. If one is not needed, it is simply terminated right there on the spot. Older ECL "backplanes" used differential twisted pair, like the early Crays. For connections on the same board, however, differential transmission lines are a waste of resources - standard stripline (a well defined trace over a power plane or two) works just fine. For short runs, generally less than three inches for 100K speeds, you could even get away without using a transmission line, as any reflections would get drowned out by the relatively long rise and fall times. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 08:53:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:53:36 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > curious to know of any operational PDPs prior to the > classic-8s? (the PDP-1 in CHM doesn't count! :-) Why not though? Assuming it's a faithful restoration using period parts [1] (rather than emulating bits using modern parts) and it works then it should qualify... I have no objections to museum machines being mentioned if the poster is directly connected with that museum [2] (nor would I mind hearing about ancient hardware that people are still using in a commercial capacity :) [1] Someone told me of one museum with an old machine where the core memory had been torn out and replaced with modern DRAM, but I can't recall what machine or where - to me though it's non-original at that point because it's not a restoration faithful to the original hardware. [2] I've mentioned our early 60's Marconi in a museum capacity. Oldest machine in my private collection is a lot newer - probably my Acorn System 1, circa 1979. I don't have room for big stuff, and the older a machine is the bigger it tends to be :-) I suppose I'm just curious as to what systems from the 1940's to 1970's have survived, as most of the talk on here seems to be of more recent (1970's and 1980's) hardware and very little gets said about the earlier stuff. cheers Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Dec 19 09:06:37 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:06:37 +0100 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A6C408.5000909@cox.net> References: <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> Message-ID: <43A6DA8D.25496.8B4BC8C9@localhost> Am 19 Dec 2005 7:30 meinte Bryan K. Blackburn: > First of all I guess I haven't been clear. I apologize for that. I have > answered several private emails on the topic, not realizing that none > were going to the list: > The boards were made by Stephen Gabaly, who brought us the Mark-8 > replicas. He also supplied the bulk of the parts. He will be offering > more kits, probably between $400-600 each depending on the included > parts. I have no further information. Ah, ok. I need one. > My biggest contribution is just assembling the machine, and > troubleshooting some component incompatibilities. Still some work, and that soldering pic looks as if your soldering skills are way more honed out than mine :) > I have to agree totally with all of your points, because I felt the same > way when the Mark-8 kits began showing up everywhere; but when it came > down to it, I know I will never own a real Apple 1, unless it is a > reproduction of one kind or another. Same here. My only concern is that a) the builder might get problems when selling and b) that there are more idiots out there than anyone of us will ever know (hopfully), thus if there's an easy way for fraud, someone will take it. Ok, now let me see where I get my board. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 19 10:18:12 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:18:12 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:26:08 +0000. <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <43A698D0.1040301 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned > by anyone on this list? PDP-11/03, dual RL01s, LA-120, VT-100, 28 KW RAM running RT-11. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 19 10:42:10 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:42:10 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: >That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital >machine owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard >to define 'machine' - >something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what >the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I think the following would be my oldest complete systems, the big problem with the oldest DEC HW I have is getting some easy to interface with I/O, or getting the I/O I have up and running. The exception on this list would be the Apple II+. PDP-8/E PDP-8/M PDP-11/03 IMSAI-8080 Apple II+ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 19 10:52:09 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:52:09 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I have a slide rule from the 1930s. :) Our local club, MARCH, has an HP 300A Harmonic Wave Analyzer. It's a got a four-digit serial number which begins with a "1". :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) >That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine >owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define >'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU >(what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I think the following would be my oldest complete systems, the big problem with the oldest DEC HW I have is getting some easy to interface with I/O, or getting the I/O I have up and running. The exception on this list would be the Apple II+. PDP-8/E PDP-8/M PDP-11/03 IMSAI-8080 Apple II+ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 19 11:00:49 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:00:49 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <002a01c604bd$c38681a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Our local club, MARCH, has an HP 300A Harmonic Wave Analyzer. It's a got a four-digit serial number which begins with a "1". :) Oops, forgot to say the year -- we think it's from the mid/late-1940s. We also have a Univac board but that one will need some more parts! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:52 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) I have a slide rule from the 1930s. :) Our local club, MARCH, has an HP 300A Harmonic Wave Analyzer. It's a got a four-digit serial number which begins with a "1". :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) >That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine >owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define >'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU >(what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I think the following would be my oldest complete systems, the big problem with the oldest DEC HW I have is getting some easy to interface with I/O, or getting the I/O I have up and running. The exception on this list would be the Apple II+. PDP-8/E PDP-8/M PDP-11/03 IMSAI-8080 Apple II+ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 19 10:57:54 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 08:57:54 -0800 Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> References: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1135011475.6560.10.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 12:23 +0100, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Stan Barr wrote: > > > (...) Open Firmware - a superset of ANS-Standard Forth used for > > detecting and setting up the hardware etc. on Sun, Apple and some > > IBM machines. It can be accessed from the console as well, allowing > > you to probe and set up hardware manually should you need to, or > > as a normal Forth of course... > > This seems like a good time to tap into the collective knowledge on this > list once more... > > I have a question regarding Sun OpenFirmware that's been bugging me for > some time now. I'm still struggling for a setup that allows a Sun to netboot > off a Windows 9x PC (just get a bootstrap, no fancy NFS exports required). > I'm making do with SuSE Linux 7.0 dual-boot right now, but that's not it. > > What I'm imagining here is to have a look at the code that is responsible > for the netbooting operation of the Sun. Why does it have to obtain the > machine's IP, that of the tftp server and what else via rarp? I'm by no > means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can define your own > FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could modify the boot code to > use parameters stored in environment variables, either if a flag > "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback if there's no rarp server around. > > I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, and I > had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often spits out > hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and I've yet to > understand what they mean; the manual addresses the problem only far enough > to tell that this doesn't happen if words are defined with the "headers" > directive. > > If somebody has been involved with FCode stuff far enough to give me some > initial guidance, please contact me. Thanks in Advance. You probably want to look at IEEE 1275 and various related specs. '1275 was the IEEE spec that defines the open firmware specification. The best web site for it is: http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html BTW the "hex" codes you're seeing are the byte codes defined by Open Firmware. It is also true that to fully understand Open Firmware you not only need to have a good understanding of forth but of the Open Firmware environment. > > Yours sincerely, > -- TTFN - Guy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 19 10:57:47 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 16:57:47 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 19/12/05 11:26, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned > by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - > something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what the heck do > you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) Hm. I've never powered it up but I've no reason (hah) to assume it doesn't work, my oldest digital machine is a Kim-1 from maybe 1976. Definitely working is a PET 2001-8, blue screen version which is what, 1978? Bung in the 1977 Atari VCS too..... Earliest analogue machine is my Magnavox Odyssey 1, 1972, if that can be counted as a 'machine' (on the flipside, the newest machine in the museum is a 2000-ish Mac G4 'sawtooth' :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 11:06:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:06:13 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 2:53 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >[1] Someone told me of one museum with an old machine where the core >memory had been torn out and replaced with modern DRAM, but I can't recall what >machine or where - to me though it's non-original at that point because >it's not a restoration faithful to the original hardware. Would that be the IBM 1620 at CHM? That's 1960 or thereabouts; not particularly old. I'd think that someone still has a 1401 or 704 still up and running somewhere. IIRC, the core was degraded beyond reclamation. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 11:13:10 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:13:10 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <43A5B6D4.3040400@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 1:27 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >http://www.akh.se/tubes/pix/norbits.jpg Always made me wonder why manufacturers didn't color-code (like resistors) IC's. It'd certainly be a lot easier to see. --Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 11:13:36 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:13:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: TS2048 In-Reply-To: <200511032242.jA3MfsDZ001428@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051219171336.9897.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I know this is an old message, but TS 2048 Computers WERE made by Timex Portugal. Zebra Systems, Inc. had a couple of them. But, I don't think we ever sold them. They also had black cases like the Spectrum, and I think had Spectrum ROMS as well. It's well over 15 years, so my memory is very fuzzy. Regards, Al Hartman > From: Glen Goodwin > > Sellam, I think you must be mistaken. The TS2048 was never > produced. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 19 11:15:46 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:15:46 -0600 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A6EAC2.6020700@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine > owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define > 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU > (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) PDP-11/04 if you count using the programmer's panel as operational - I still haven't tracked the bus grant issues that pop up with any I/O boards are installed. A PDP-11V03 is the earliest fully-functional system I have. Lowboy roll-around, 32KW, RX02s for storage. Doc From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 19 11:23:44 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:23:44 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004901c604c0$f6ee4480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Oh, what about the people who have Kenbaks? Those are from 1971. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 9:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Oldest machine Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > curious to know of any operational PDPs prior to the classic-8s? (the > PDP-1 in CHM doesn't count! :-) Why not though? Assuming it's a faithful restoration using period parts [1] (rather than emulating bits using modern parts) and it works then it should qualify... I have no objections to museum machines being mentioned if the poster is directly connected with that museum [2] (nor would I mind hearing about ancient hardware that people are still using in a commercial capacity :) [1] Someone told me of one museum with an old machine where the core memory had been torn out and replaced with modern DRAM, but I can't recall what machine or where - to me though it's non-original at that point because it's not a restoration faithful to the original hardware. [2] I've mentioned our early 60's Marconi in a museum capacity. Oldest machine in my private collection is a lot newer - probably my Acorn System 1, circa 1979. I don't have room for big stuff, and the older a machine is the bigger it tends to be :-) I suppose I'm just curious as to what systems from the 1940's to 1970's have survived, as most of the talk on here seems to be of more recent (1970's and 1980's) hardware and very little gets said about the earlier stuff. cheers Jules From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Dec 19 11:24:53 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 09:24:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not TS 2048, TC 2048 In-Reply-To: <200511071446.jA7EkgtO046144@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20051219172453.15909.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> As I was sitting here thinking, I remembered that the Black versions of the TS-2068 had a different name than the Timex/Sinclair Versions... The Black unit with the Spectrum ROMS was the TC-2048. The TS 2016 and 2048 were never made. I think the savings in the RAM chips didn't make sense in the additional costs of changing assembly lines, and stocking different units. There may have also been a TC-2068 that was the same as the TS 2068 with the same ROM as the TS-2068. But, the TC-2048 used a Spectrum ROM for sure... Regards, Al Hartman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 19 11:29:51 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:29:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Dec 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Hmmm...I also remember someone scored on a LGP, but forgot whether > it's operational or not.. http://www.lgp-30.de It's working again since nearly 6 years. Serial number 4 (EU-4), built around 1957. BTW it's the only working LGP-30 on earth (others claim to have one but never got it running, or they never started restoration). Then there's the IBM museum (maintained by former IBM engineers) in Sindelfingen (near Stuttgart). They're very good and have many interesting things in working condition, including the D11, IBM 604, IBM 650, IBM 1401 etc. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 11:36:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:36:31 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A6EF9F.8080603@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/19/2005 at 2:53 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >> [1] Someone told me of one museum with an old machine where the core >> memory had been torn out and replaced with modern DRAM, but I can't recall > what >> machine or where - to me though it's non-original at that point because >> it's not a restoration faithful to the original hardware. > > Would that be the IBM 1620 at CHM? Hmmm, not sure. Quite possibly :) > That's 1960 or thereabouts; not particularly old. Reasonable age, though, considering how few machines prior to it are still (I expect) maintained in operational condition. Although see previous post - I wouldn't consider it original once a substantial element of the machine has been replaced with a modern part. > IIRC, the core was degraded beyond reclamation. Hopefully there's a plan to rebuild it in the longer term though, using bits from a sacrificial core. Not a job I'd fancy, but doubtless possible (I've seen some unbelievably small cores!). It even seems like one of those oddball projects that IBM would be up for sponsoring... Hopefully if it's also maintained in "running condition" there's a clear sign for the public that it's not completely original! cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Mon Dec 19 11:45:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:45:03 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004b01c604c3$f1af2900$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> The 1401 restoration project is explained at http://www.ed-thelen.org/1401Project/1401RestorationPage.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 12:06 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Oldest machine On 12/19/2005 at 2:53 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >[1] Someone told me of one museum with an old machine where the core >memory had been torn out and replaced with modern DRAM, but I can't >recall what >machine or where - to me though it's non-original at that point because >it's not a restoration faithful to the original hardware. Would that be the IBM 1620 at CHM? That's 1960 or thereabouts; not particularly old. I'd think that someone still has a 1401 or 704 still up and running somewhere. IIRC, the core was degraded beyond reclamation. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 19 11:42:54 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:42:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: <1135011475.6560.10.camel@linux.site> References: <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> <1135011475.6560.10.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <200512191744.MAA17317@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, >> and I had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often >> spits out hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and >> I've yet to understand what they mean; > BTW the "hex" codes you're seeing are the byte codes defined by Open > Firmware. I doubt it; as I read it, this is when looking at existing words - not necessarily device methods, either - with see. Not when dumping FCode ROMs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 11:46:21 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:46:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A6EF9F.8080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Hopefully there's a plan to rebuild it in the longer term though, using bits > from a sacrificial core. Not a job I'd fancy, but doubtless possible (I've > seen some unbelievably small cores!). It even seems like one of those oddball > projects that IBM would be up for sponsoring... In the good old days, core planes were indeed repaired by hand, often during initial construction. Sometimes you can see the tiny splices. I do not think I have any busted planes yet, but I would be willing to try if I had too. My eyes are still pretty damn good. William Donzelli PDP-8/S, ca. 1968, works most of the time. aw288 at osfn.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 19 11:56:20 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:56:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512181610.32648.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512191256.20614.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 19 December 2005 08:27 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/18/05, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Want to get even more obscure? I worked on some machinery a while back > > (QUITE a while back :-) that used some logic parts made by Amperex that > > they called "Norbits" > > http://www.akh.se/tubes/pix/norbits.jpg Them's the critters... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 19 12:02:44 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:02:44 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 19 December 2005 12:13 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/19/2005 at 1:27 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > >http://www.akh.se/tubes/pix/norbits.jpg > > Always made me wonder why manufacturers didn't color-code (like resistors) > IC's. It'd certainly be a lot easier to see. > > --Chuck Costs more. Ever wonder why almost all car batteries sold these days have cases that are black? It's because the material is almost all recycled plastic, and that's the easiest color to end up with... I remember watching those ads in the back of Popular Electronics and other magazines, way back when, where a "7400" chip started out at several dollars, and then just kept on going down. 50 cents! Lower! :-) There was a point later on where I found out what "commodity market" meant, and which made me thankful for the fact that I could now get my hands on a whole lot of hardware that I'd not otherwise ever be able to even get close to. This sort of economic pressure doesn't allow for such niceties as color coding, unfortunately, it would make that manufacturer non-competetive. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 12:08:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:08:20 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512191008200307.3CABED41@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 12:46 PM William Donzelli wrote: >In the good old days, core planes were indeed repaired by hand, >often during initial construction. Sometimes you can see the tiny splices. At CDC, we used to joke about the "Tiajuana Core House"--at one time, bulk core (ECS) was being assembled there, IIRC. I remember an IBM CE poking around in a 7090 with a broomstick with a small magnet attached to the end to retrieve fractured bits of core after he'd given the unit a couple of good whacks to free them. Core can be very fragile stuff, particularly when it's being heated by repeated access. I recall that the CDC 7600 had some sort of duty-cycle integrator installed on PP memory because repeated hits on the same location would cause overheating and parity errors. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 12:12:49 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:12:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: > Costs more. Sprague made sky blue TTL DIPs. Ick! > Ever wonder why almost all car batteries sold these days have cases that are > black? It's because the material is almost all recycled plastic, and that's > the easiest color to end up with... This also explains why in the US electrical code, the neutral wire is white. Think about it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 12:28:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:28:33 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512191028330684.3CBE70F6@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 1:02 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Costs more. Probably the reason, though you can sometimes find IC's that had color bands on the BOTTOM. All I'm talking about is paint, not epoxy or plastic.I'd have to go look at my parts bins to discover who it was, but heck, resistors are cheap; some diodes are color-coded. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 19 12:21:21 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:21:21 GMT Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)" (Dec 19, 11:26) References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10512191821.ZM20242@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 19 2005, 11:26, Jules Richardson wrote: > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned > by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - > something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what the heck do > you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) My PDP-8/E from about 1972 won't even be close to the oldest, but it is running. Running right now, in fact, though I think it has an interrupt problem, with an RX02 and an ASR33 (which is probably older than the -8 is). Apart from that I have a Motorola MK6800D2 from 1975, a PDP-11/03 from 1975 or '76, and a KIM-1 designed in 1975 but probably made about 1977. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 12:35:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:35:34 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512191035340884.3CC4DE41@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 1:02 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Ever wonder why almost all car batteries sold these days have cases that >are black? It's because the material is almost all recycled plastic, and >that's the easiest color to end up with... My recollection goes back long before recycling and PVC and auto battery cases were always black, with very few exceptions. Basically a composition (phenolic maybe?) tub with three cells embedded in pitch and connected together. In the very old days, some battery shops could actually replace an individual bad cell. OTOH, sealed gel-cell cases seem to be mostly black or blue (or some shade in between). Cheers, Chuck From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Dec 19 12:47:08 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:47:08 +0000 Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:23:04 +0100." <19321.1134991384@www5.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200512191847.SAA28231@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Arno Kletzander said: [RE: Open Firmware] > I have a question regarding Sun OpenFirmware that's been bugging me for > some time now. I'm still struggling for a setup that allows a Sun to netboot > off a Windows 9x PC (just get a bootstrap, no fancy NFS exports required). > I'm making do with SuSE Linux 7.0 dual-boot right now, but that's not it. > > What I'm imagining here is to have a look at the code that is responsible > for the netbooting operation of the Sun. Why does it have to obtain the > machine's IP, that of the tftp server and what else via rarp? I'm by no > means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can define your own > FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could modify the boot code to > use parameters stored in environment variables, either if a flag > "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback if there's no rarp server around. > I can't really help directly. Even though I've used Forth for 25 yrs and have both Power Mac and Sun machines here I've not done much with Open Firmware. You might try looking at http://www.openfirmware.org/ or http://playground.sun.com/1275/ and see if there are any useful links. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 19 12:47:40 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:47:40 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:35:34 PST." <200512191035340884.3CC4DE41@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512191847.jBJIledQ001914@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >My recollection goes back long before recycling and PVC and auto battery >cases were always black, with very few exceptions. except when they were glass :-) the glass ones where clear. I've never seen the top or 'guts', but I have seen a few glass battery cases recently. -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 19 13:34:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:34:49 -0700 Subject: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <15701446.1134990477260.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <15701446.1134990477260.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A70B59.9060105@jetnet.ab.ca> Steve Thatcher wrote: >just a note... CPLDs are easier because the EEPROM config is inside the chip (no external hardware and an easy to use interface). The cost of this is available logic density though. You will always get more FGA logic space available then you will with a CPLD. Of course, you can always add more CPLDs, but one FPGA and a 8 pin dip eeprom is less PCB real estate. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > I know that, but in my case I use CPLDs because 1) -- they are cheap 2) -- the development chip was cheap $99 us 3) -- they are power on programed 4) FGA's all seem to come in BGA packaging @ 3.3 volt logic - the cplds are 5 volts in a 84 pin plcc package. 5) I buy more CPLD's rather one big NEW FPGA if I out grow my design. 6) I can't buy TTL and sockets for 2 cents each anymore. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 19 13:38:01 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:38:01 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A70C19.4010505@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is >>> still running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to >>> do some hobby >> >> >> Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. > > > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine > owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define > 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one > CPU (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I guess a straight 8 would be the most likely, but the PDP-1 and other machines may be accesed by list members if not owned. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 13:38:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:38:02 +0000 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512191028330684.3CBE70F6@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRP00LJ070TJFD2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200512190913100777.3C796AFB@10.0.0.252> <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200512191028330684.3CBE70F6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A70C1A.40702@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/19/2005 at 1:02 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Costs more. > > Probably the reason Not sure that it's purely the cost of colour ink versus text. An IC typically has extra information other than the basic part - manufacturer logo, family, date code etc. which it would be hard to colour code completely. And if you're having to print some of the data as plain text, it probably makes sense to do it all that way. > All I'm talking about is paint that's OK until it falls off :-) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 19 13:41:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:41:08 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A70CD4.4020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Ahh, that's earlier than our Marconi TAC then (1963 IIRC, although > designed in the late 50's). > > Not sure what we have that's earlier and qualifies. The Elliott 803 is > late 1950's (1958 I think) but has a core fault so doesn't count as > working until someone finds the time to fix it! It's probably the > earliest complete machine that we have though; prior to that we just > have small bits of some of the earlier famous* machines. > That may be easyer to fix than modern core memory , since I belive modern core uses IC drivers and IC sense amps no longer made. > Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 13:51:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:51:34 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A70CD4.4020504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> <43A70CD4.4020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43A70F46.9000308@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> >> Ahh, that's earlier than our Marconi TAC then (1963 IIRC, although >> designed in the late 50's). >> >> Not sure what we have that's earlier and qualifies. The Elliott 803 is >> late 1950's (1958 I think) but has a core fault so doesn't count as >> working until someone finds the time to fix it! It's probably the >> earliest complete machine that we have though; prior to that we just >> have small bits of some of the earlier famous* machines. >> > That may be easyer to fix than modern core memory , since I belive > modern core uses IC drivers and IC sense amps no longer made. Yep. We've actually got one (possibly two) spare core stacks for the machine too if there's something *really* toasted about the one in the machine (I can't remember the nature of the fault myself now). The guy who looks after it was a trained Elliott engineer, so I don't expect it'd be a complicated repair either - it's just time consuming and there are always a million other things to be done! Would be nice to have it running again though. I only realised at the weekend that there's a massive lighting strip built into the back of the control desk - quite why you'd want to run it in an otherwise dark room I don't know! cheers J. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 13:52:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:52:23 -0500 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 Message-ID: <0IRR00LZQGI7SYF3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:38:02 +0000 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/19/2005 at 1:02 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >>> Costs more. >> >> Probably the reason > >Not sure that it's purely the cost of colour ink versus text. An IC typically >has extra information other than the basic part - manufacturer logo, family, >date code etc. which it would be hard to colour code completely. And if you're >having to print some of the data as plain text, it probably makes sense to do >it all that way. > >> All I'm talking about is paint > >that's OK until it falls off :-) > >cheers > >Jules Paint likely signifies a special test or other qualification activities. Allison From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Dec 19 15:36:11 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:36:11 -0000 Subject: Paging Peter Pachla Message-ID: <019a01c604e4$3babb080$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Peter could you please contact me off list re your items for re-homing. Regards Jim Beacon. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 19 15:51:12 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:51:12 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 References: <43A4F5AD.803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43A72B51.F9754212@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > >Note: these are not "playing cards", which typically refers to a deck > >of cards marked for card games (i.e. Jack of Spades, etc.). This is > >for a deck of cards with slots that you can assemble into "house of > >cards" structures. I played with several decks myself when I was a > >little kid and it was great fun! > > > Cheater -- I used real cards only to have them fall. > Well you can't say you don't learn things here or from other internet > sites. I remember as a child using hundreds of used IBM *punch* cards to build towers. The quantity made it feasible to build quite large and high structures. And of course, seeing how many you could pull out from the bottom before it collapsed. Or building domino-like trails of them and then starting them falling over. A quantity of punch cards was a great children's toy, in the same vein as "the cardboard box being a better toy than what came in it". From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 19 15:58:29 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:58:29 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A72D07.57EC5852@cs.ubc.ca> ...not the earliest, but just for the record: HP 2116C (1969/70) Hardware is all functioning and I've written some programs and a monitor/system for it but I'd like to find original (period) software to run on it. Jules Richardson wrote: > I suppose I'm just curious as to what systems from the 1940's to 1970's have > survived, as most of the talk on here seems to be of more recent (1970's and > 1980's) hardware and very little gets said about the earlier stuff. This is partly why I collect 60s-era calculators. They are examples of complex digital systems (ALU,memory,I/O,control - everything but the general-purpose/stored-program), available in discrete and SSI implementations, but more available and manageable (size/weight/power) than full computer systems of the era. Digital frequency counters from the 50s/60s also provide examples of early digital technology, constructed using the same sorts of circuitry and techniques as computers of the same era). I keep a couple of vacuum-tube-based digital counters around, along with discrete-transistor and SSI versions, as comparable examples of the generations of digital electronics. HP tube counters seem to still be around in some quantity (vacuum-tube counters and logic, not just NIXIE displays). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 19 15:58:52 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:58:52 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> <43A70CD4.4020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43A72D1E.3A4DB921@cs.ubc.ca> woodelf wrote: > > That may be easyer to fix than modern core memory , since I belive > modern core uses IC drivers and IC sense amps > no longer made. > ...along with things like quads of tiny pulse transformers hidden in DIP or DIP-like packages. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 19 16:25:23 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:25:23 -0700 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:52:09 -0500. <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > Our local club, MARCH, has an HP 300A Harmonic Wave Analyzer. It's a got a > four-digit serial number which begins with a "1". :) Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial number. For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter the serial #s of their common computers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 19 16:32:15 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Archiving Software Message-ID: <200512192232.OAA25165@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >Tony Duell wrote: >> Most (if not all) of us here realise the value of proper technical >> documentation, schematics, source listings, etc. It therefore surpises me >> that people write programs to support classic computers and _don't_ >> release the source code. Ditto for stuff for amateur radio (which >> according to my license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy', >> it's a lot easier to learn about how something works if you have the >> sourc code for the programs involved.... > >Yep, but I suppose it only needs for you to get burned once for it to put you >off trying again. > >And given Dave's statement about NDAs, the source *is* there if someone wants >to port it to another system or use it to enhance their own copy - it's just >not publicly available to everyone via the website. > > >cheers > >Jules Hi I usually release my source code but I still get email requesting the source code. I even include readme's at times telling one how to rebuild things ( often as important as source code ). I still get messages asking for my source code. Go figure! Dwight From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon Dec 19 16:54:40 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:54:40 EST Subject: Teletype 43 manual Message-ID: <2c2.948d80.30d89430@aol.com> Charlie, I also e-mailed you about the 33 ASR covers. Try Dataterm Inc.- Woburn, MA. They have the 43 manuals also. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 19 17:51:08 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:51:08 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43A7476C.50100@msm.umr.edu> In my possession: PDP8/e running Microdata 1600 Reality ('71) multiple machines, running In John Bohner's possession, and planned to be restored: LGP-30 (mentioned elsewhere on thread) Univac-III Both are currently stored. The Univac-III is apparently described in a book by Kevin Stumpf. From the condition, it certainly appears to be restorable. Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:48:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:48:08 +0000 Subject: Paging Peter Pachla In-Reply-To: <019a01c604e4$3babb080$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <019a01c604e4$3babb080$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <43A754C8.7040700@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Beacon wrote: > Peter > > could you please contact me off list re your items for re-homing. FYI he told me he was suffering PC trouble and hence rebuilding his mail machine over the weekend, so he'd probably be offline until the start of this week. I expect he'll be catching up with anyone who's contacted him over the next few days... cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:07:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:07:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <20051219004429.14094.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Dec 18, 5 04:44:29 pm Message-ID: > > I dont own any. But according to a recent Circuit > Cellar article, early ics can be easy to implement in > a FPGA. Dont have the issue in front of me, but the > guy needed to mimic if you will a crt controller. > Therefore could the chips used in the early HPs (maybe > up to and including the 41 series?) be readily > emulated by an FPGA? There are 2 main problems... 1) The triival one is that the HP calculators did not use standard logic levels. The Classics, Topcats and most of the Woodstocks (HP27 being the exception) are PMOS, for example 2) The more serious problem is lack of documentation for the ICs. Eric Smith knows more about this than me, having written emulators for these machines, but in many cases data sheets plain don't exist, and when they do, there are odd quirks. The NUT processor in the HP41 has a number of bugs compared to the data sheet I have, for example. And of coruse fitting an FPGA in place of an HP ROM/RAM chip (which would cotnain, perhpas, 1K words of ROM and 16 56-bit 'registers' of RAM, with an odd internface to the rest of the machine) which comes in an 8 pin DIL package is another entertainment. So yes, it can be done, but it is not trivial. Shameless Plug Alert! If you want to repair HP calculators, consider buying the HPCC Scheamtics CD-ROM. It contains scehmatics for almost 70 calculators, small computers, peripherals, etc. No, I don't get anything from the sales, other than supporting HPCC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:10:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <43A60A6C.4070106@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 19, 5 01:18:36 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > later). He replied that they make up a care kit with 2 of everything and > > place it safely away inside the console. I opined that this hardly seemed > > ETC lighting desks come with a little ziplock bag tucked away inside > with some spare fuses, spare triacs (I think) and a spare boot disk. > Genius. Not quite the same thing, but 2 monitors I have here (one a Barco colour monitor, the other an HP X-Y display) have extender boards stored inside to make it easy to work on the plug-in PCBs. I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' reel-to-reel tape recorder, and found a schematic glued to the inside of the case. At one time this was quite common on consumer electronic devices I believe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:15:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:15:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <43A660B9.2040403@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 19, 5 00:26:49 am Message-ID: > I think for example in the TRS 80 /I a 7400 with a defective unused > gate was used because it was cheaper than a working 7400. I don't recall that, and I've worked on most TRS-80s, and read the schematics. Of course there are unused gates that could be defecive. BUT... I remember a UK company called Bi-Pak. They bought up defective ICs, tested them [1], and sold them. They did sell things like TTL quad-gate packages with only 3 good gates. Problem was, as we all found, those 3 gates quickly failed in use. [1] The tester was built from telephone relays and selectors. It ran at about 1Hz. Plenty of chips passed that test and failed at more reasonable speeds.... Don't ask how I found that out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:19:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:19:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 19, 5 11:26:08 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still > >> running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby > > > > Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. > > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned > by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - > something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what the heck do > you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) Some 'earlies' from my collection : HP9830 (1973), desktop computer running BASIC from ROM Philips P850 (1970), minicomputer with core memory HP9100B (1969) programamble scientific calculator Casio AL1000 (1967?) very simple progammable calculator The first 2 use TTL chips, the last 2 are all discretes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 19 18:29:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:29:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: <200512191302.44649.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 19, 5 01:02:44 pm Message-ID: > > Always made me wonder why manufacturers didn't color-code (like resistors) > > IC's. It'd certainly be a lot easier to see. > > > > --Chuck > > Costs more. > > Ever wonder why almost all car batteries sold these days have cases that are > black? It's because the material is almost all recycled plastic, and that's > the easiest color to end up with... Then why are many opto-isolators in white DIL pacakges, resistor networks in blue or brown plastic DIL packages, etc? -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 19:20:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:20:58 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion In-Reply-To: <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> References: <000501c60044$c06d1bf0$6501a8c0@bigdaddio> <43A6CD44.1461.8B17E278@localhost> Message-ID: <20051219202058.4bd40b43.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:09:56 +0100 "Hans Franke" wrote: > Am 17 Dec 2005 19:40 meinte Bryan K. Blackburn: > > > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item > > #8739750233 at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an > > original. Really cool, just the same. > > Well, neat. Cool! And congratulation to your great work. > > >From a colectors viwpoint I'm quite concerned because of the > >good > work. While Vince' Replika-1 has all the fun but different > looks, yours may be directly taken as the real thing. The only > difference I spotet beside chip dates and capacitors (which > could be because it's an refurbished one), is the missing > copyright line below 'Apple Computer 1'. > > I fear that in a very short time your boards (I assume you made > more than one) will show up anounced as the real thing. With a > little effort the missing line can be added - but even without, > it's so close, that most non experts (and most self proclaimed) > will take it as genuine Apple 1. Beside all the hassles for > people that might pay 1+ grand for it while beliveing to make a > bargain, just to realize at some point that they got framed. > > This might cause real damage to our hobby. But beside that > people unknowingly selling one (hafter having bought one from a > guy not been told that it's a Replica) follow the trail to you > and add your name in a civil case, in a lot of countries this > might be egliable for a criminal case. With a look at the board > and your advertisement (eBay) it might be hard for any lawyer to > argue that you realy did go all the length to make shure that > everybody understands that it is a copy, and not an Apple 1 from > Apple Computer. I don't see how this would damage our hobby. Or how it would damage mine, anyway. I don't collect things and value them because of their scarcity. I collect things because they are cool and interesting to maintain and run, or just to have. The historical value of an Apple I system will remain, and it will always be easy to tell a replica from the real thing, unless ridiculous expense is taken in producing the replica. Identifying guides will be developed, and people will study and explore even MORE of the things that make the original unique. A real Apple I at this point in time comes with a provenance, i.e. a history that usually can be traced, like a work by Rembrandt. Apple I systems don't 'come out of the woodwork' and people who think they will are gullible. I used to be a coin collector, and still 'dabble' in it somewhat, but left the hobby in part because it's become the domain of speculators and people who look at 'value' and 'scarcity' first. Some of my favorite coins, and some of my favorite classic computer hardware, is stuff that is specifically 'flawed' in a way that an appraiser would devalue it for. But those 'flaws' often add historical interest. The only merit that I personally see in a world where people value 'rare and scarce' classic computing hardware is that people are less likely to just trash it without thinking twice. > > Recent efforts to crack down on product pirates (stron support > from the US) added laws, in some countries, where the prosecutor > does not need any complain by the trademark/copyright holder > to go after a suspect. > (I typed a big bunch of stuff about my disdain for 'trademarks for the sake of trademarks' as a swindle operation by marketers, but have omitted it as offtopic before posting this message) From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 19:29:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:29:35 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:52:09 -0500 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > I have a slide rule from the 1930s. :) > > Our local club, MARCH, has an HP 300A Harmonic Wave Analyzer. > It's a got a four-digit serial number which begins with a "1". > :) > I used to have an HP Model 100 Oscillator. That was HP's first commercial product. The later generation tube-type HP oscillators have much the same design, and thus similar historical/technical interest. I brought home a Model 200 from work a few months ago (retired from the R&D lab of a company, with asset markings, that has nearly as rich a history as H-P). Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion Laboratory for instance. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 19:52:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:52:21 -0800 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 12:15 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I remember a UK company called Bi-Pak. They bought up defective ICs, >tested them [1], and sold them. They did sell things like TTL quad-gate >packages with only 3 good gates. Problem was, as we all found, those 3 >gates quickly failed in use. Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine which half to use. I don't know if these were in general circulation, but the sales engineers were passing them out to customers working on designs. I may still have one or two kicking around that I found actually had 16K worth of usable bits, providing they weren't run too fast. And there was bubble memory with a flaw map. Aren't some (or all) high-density DRAMs now made with extra rows and colums to improve yields? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 19:53:26 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:53:26 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512191753260646.3E55BBD7@10.0.0.252> Does anyone still collect UR equipment? A 407 is darned near a computer. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 19:54:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:54:41 -0800 Subject: Fw: Deck of IBM PLAYING CARDS GOES FOR $325 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512191754410898.3E56E1C7@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 12:29 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Then why are many opto-isolators in white DIL pacakges, resistor networks >in blue or brown plastic DIL packages, etc? I can't imagine the packaging for ICs being made from recycled anything--I'd think that there would be too many unpredictable impurities. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 19:55:38 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:55:38 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A7649A.90401@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Stevens wrote: > Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset > tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion > Laboratory for instance. Yep - I tend to try and leave those on if they're something interesting, even if I'm cleaning the rest of the machine up as much as possible. Partly to aid my own memory too, because I can never remember where I got half my stuff from! :-) On a related note, there's also something nice about finding signed documentation once owned by well-known staff at the company which produced that documentation. I suppose it's a similar thing - no big deal, but it just adds something somehow (to the historical value - I wouldn't have a clue whether it affects monetary value at all) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 19:56:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:56:55 -0800 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 12:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' reel-to-reel tape >recorder, and found a schematic glued to the inside of the case. At one >time this was quite common on consumer electronic devices I believe. Not at all uncommon on radios and TVs using vacuum tubes (valves). Very useful. But then early PC's sometimes included schematics in their end-user documentation. --Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 19 20:00:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:00:20 +0000 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> References: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A765B4.1040108@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that > were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine > which half to use. I keep hearing rumours that this is done with modern hard disks too, and that if one side of a platter tests bad then that platter will still get used in a drive with that surface mapped out (e.g. company releases a 2-platter 40GB drive, and a 30GB drive which is identical but with one failed surface) Never confirmed that one, but I can see how it might make financial sense. cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 20:03:43 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:03:43 -0500 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs Message-ID: <0IRR00JDJXP0WL60@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:52:21 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/20/2005 at 12:15 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>I remember a UK company called Bi-Pak. They bought up defective ICs, >>tested them [1], and sold them. They did sell things like TTL quad-gate >>packages with only 3 good gates. Problem was, as we all found, those 3 >>gates quickly failed in use. Polypaks was the place here. No bargan as usually a package with one bad gate developed other problems over time. >Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that >were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine >which half to use. I don't know if these were in general circulation, but >the sales engineers were passing them out to customers working on designs. >I may still have one or two kicking around that I found actually had 16K >worth of usable bits, providing they weren't run too fast. I used to have a full set of half good 64ks, likely still do. >And there was bubble memory with a flaw map. That was normal. It had extra tracks for that reason. I must have 8 of the BMs and two working BPK72 boards. There was no such thing as a flawless BM apparently. >Aren't some (or all) high-density DRAMs now made with extra rows and colums >to improve yields? Used to be so, don't know about it now. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 20:05:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:05:22 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS Message-ID: <0IRR0030WXRQF7A2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:56:55 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 12/20/2005 at 12:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' reel-to-reel tape >>recorder, and found a schematic glued to the inside of the case. At one >>time this was quite common on consumer electronic devices I believe. > >Not at all uncommon on radios and TVs using vacuum tubes (valves). Very >useful. But then early PC's sometimes included schematics in their >end-user documentation. Two I know of at least, IBM XT and the Tandy HX1000. Very nice docs at that. Allison From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 19 20:26:48 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:26:48 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:29:35 -0500. <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset > tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion > Laboratory for instance. I suppose it depends on the equipment and the asset markings :-). On my 11/03 I left on the labels because they were official DEC labels that identified the one and previous owner. On stuff where small dinky companies slapped their sticker on it, my impulse is to want to remove the sticker with a little WD-40. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 20:27:21 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:27:21 -0800 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <0IRR00JDJXP0WL60@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IRR00JDJXP0WL60@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200512191827210804.3E74C947@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 9:03 PM Allison wrote: >Polypaks was the place here. No bargan as usually a package with one bad >gate developed other problems over time. I really had to wonder about some of the Poly Paks stuff--you could get IC's with untinned/unplated leads or other very substantial cosmetic defects. Still, I certainly bought a pile of RTL from them--all flat-pack. --Chuck >That was normal. It had extra tracks for that reason. I must have 8 >of the BMs and two working BPK72 boards. There was no such thing as >a flawless BM apparently. Still have an unused BPK72A-4 in its original box (S/N 948). Sales guy gave it to me--I didn't ask for it, could never rationalize using it for--what, 128K of rather slow power-hungry memory. I think Intel grew desperate at some point to find a market for it. --Chuck From recycler at swbell.net Mon Dec 19 20:28:10 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:28:10 -0600 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A76C3A.9070308@swbell.net> I have an operation Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. Vacuum tubes and relays of course. Patrick Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is >>> still running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to >>> do some hobby >> >> >> Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. > > > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine > owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define > 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU > (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) > > I remember the discussions a while back about age of list members, but I > don't recall ever seeing a similar one about age of collections! > > Not having all the peripherals that would have perhaps originally gone > with the machine is acceptable I think (I can see some people having > room for a mainframe and control desk, but probably not for a bazillion > tape / drum units to go with it!). But other than that, make it complete > (i.e. things like the single rack of EDSAC that we have - whilst perhaps > "operational" - doesn't count :) > > > (I'd quite like to hear responses from people with analogue machines > too, but someone else will be able to define qualifying rules much > better than I can) > > Just out of curiosity! > > cheers > > Jules > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 20:45:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:45:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect > mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial > number. > > For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. > > Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter > the serial #s of their common computers? This is mostly a pointless excercise, sorry to report. Serial numbers are notoriously non-sequential. Some companies purposely skip chunks in the series, and many actually will not start at 1 (it looks bad). To add to that, the serial numbers can change as a system goes thru the factory - #1 probably was not actually the first off the line, but the one closest to the guy that put the stickers on when the shift started. The real bastard companies are the ones that reuse serials! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 20:48:26 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:48:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <200512191753260646.3E55BBD7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Does anyone still collect UR equipment? A 407 is darned near a computer. Yes, but I do not know of any 407s left (maybe CHM?). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Dec 19 20:50:21 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:50:21 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512162138350338.2FB0CC5D@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRJ00KCKGJMNJ55@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <43A17FAA.5060009@atarimuseum.com> <43A2663D.7050805@oldskool.org> <200512160013450596.2B18847B@10.0.0.252> <200512161017010091.2D40D2D2@10.0.0.252> <20051216194448.6c783fd6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512162138350338.2FB0CC5D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/16/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't believe that the early IDE CD-ROM drives were ATAPI, either, so > SCSI was the closest thing to anything standard. My first sound card > certainly had a SCSI adapter on it. You got that right. I have two relatively early 16-bit sound cards next to me (i.e. old enough to have a volume control knob on the bracket.) One has two connectors (Mitsumi and SCSI interface, although the chip that would enable the SCSI interface is missing). The other has four possible interfaces (Sony, Panasonic, Mitsumi and IDE). In that case only IDE is active. You'd need to replace a PAL to activate the others. It also has 3 different CD audio connectors. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 19 20:51:46 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:51:46 -0700 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:45:06 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect > > mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial > > number. > > > > For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. > > > > Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter > > the serial #s of their common computers? > > This is mostly a pointless excercise, sorry to report. Serial numbers are > notoriously non-sequential. [...] I'm not asserting that serial number #288801 would be "more valuable" than my serial number of 388801, but it can still be fun to try and get a lower serial number with mass-produced parts. As you say, there is no real correlation between the serial number and its provenance, but not everything in collecting has to do with provenance or market value.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 20:52:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:52:44 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A76C3A.9070308@swbell.net> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A76C3A.9070308@swbell.net> Message-ID: <200512191852440830.3E8C064D@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 8:28 PM Patrick Jankowiak wrote: >I have an operation Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. Vacuum tubes and >relays of course. I used one of those when it was brand new! (Bouncing ball exercise, IIRC) Does that make ME vintage? Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 19 20:56:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:56:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset > tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion > Laboratory for instance. It is interesting. Sometimes, with luck, with military electronics you can get unit or tail numbers off bits and pieces, or perhaps a previous life on a ship. I have traced some bits and pieces to Goddard Space Flight (most of their early digital phone system), the XB-52, battleships Texas, Idaho, and California, aircraft carrier Forrestal, and a DE called the Loeser. I also once had a VAX-11/730 with CDC tags - Horrors! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Dec 19 21:01:46 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:01:46 +0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512191852440830.3E8C064D@10.0.0.252> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A76C3A.9070308@swbell.net> <200512191852440830.3E8C064D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/19/2005 at 8:28 PM Patrick Jankowiak wrote: > > >I have an operation Heathkit EC-1 analog computer. Vacuum tubes and > >relays of course. > > I used one of those when it was brand new! (Bouncing ball exercise, IIRC) > Does that make ME vintage? Absolutely! But still have to depends on whether your core is fully operational too.. Otherwise, you'd be classified as "degraded" and in need of restoration... :-) From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 19 21:06:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:06:45 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> References: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051219220645.6c694adc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:56:55 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/20/2005 at 12:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' reel-to-reel > >tape recorder, and found a schematic glued to the inside of > >the case. At one time this was quite common on consumer > >electronic devices I believe. > > Not at all uncommon on radios and TVs using vacuum tubes > (valves). Very useful. But then early PC's sometimes included > schematics in their end-user documentation. > I was disappointed when the XT-clone motherboard vendors stopped including the schematic diagram in that little user guide that always comes with a motherboard. I have kept all the user guides I've had that included the schematic. And the shocking thing is it's always the same schematic. You can use that schematic to troubleshoot almost ANY XT clone motherboard from a certain era. They all had the same TTL, and usually even placed on the board identically. That was the era when IBM lost control of the design of the 'IBM PC,' and had to 'invoke the PS/2' to try to grab back control of the market. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 21:22:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:22:55 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A76C3A.9070308@swbell.net> <200512191852440830.3E8C064D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512191922550774.3EA7A7F3@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 11:01 AM Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >Absolutely! But still have to depends on whether your core is fully >operational too.. >Otherwise, you'd be classified as "degraded" and in need of restoration... :-) I was thinking of having my core swapped out for CMOS one of these days...I figure a single 6116 should hold everything that's important. :) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 19 21:33:40 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:33:40 -0800 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING CARDS In-Reply-To: <20051219220645.6c694adc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> <20051219220645.6c694adc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512191933400954.3EB1800F@10.0.0.252> On 12/19/2005 at 10:06 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >And the shocking thing is it's always the same schematic. You can >use that schematic to troubleshoot almost ANY XT clone motherboard >from a certain era. They all had the same TTL, and usually even >placed on the board identically. The (Taiwan) government got behind the little manufacturers in a big way, even commissioning a "legal" BIOS. I think this was not lost a couple of decades later on the PRC; for example, the cheaper musical instruments follow a common design, regardless of where they were constructed. A design 714 tuba was a copy of an old model made by Alexander in Mainz. Quality or lack thereof is variable, but the design is always the same. Only lately has the quality and variety of designs improved; mostly as a result of bringing in foreign engineering and design talent. Some of the strings are very respectible. -Chuck From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 19 21:48:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:48:38 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000701c60518$4426b820$0100a8c0@screamer> 1968 HP 2114 1969 HP2116 1969 Imlac PDS-1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 6:26 AM Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) > Tony Duell wrote: >>> One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is >>> still running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do >>> some hobby >> >> Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. > > That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine > owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define > 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU > (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) > > I remember the discussions a while back about age of list members, but I > don't recall ever seeing a similar one about age of collections! > > Not having all the peripherals that would have perhaps originally gone > with the machine is acceptable I think (I can see some people having room > for a mainframe and control desk, but probably not for a bazillion tape / > drum units to go with it!). But other than that, make it complete (i.e. > things like the single rack of EDSAC that we have - whilst perhaps > "operational" - doesn't count :) > > > (I'd quite like to hear responses from people with analogue machines too, > but someone else will be able to define qualifying rules much better than > I can) > > Just out of curiosity! > > cheers > > Jules > > From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 19 22:04:24 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:04:24 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk><43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> <43A72D07.57EC5852@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <003901c6051a$77b1d6f0$0100a8c0@screamer> There is a fair amount of software available for your HP, contact me off list... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Oldest machine > ...not the earliest, but just for the record: > > HP 2116C (1969/70) > > Hardware is all functioning and I've written some programs and a > monitor/system for > it but I'd like to find original (period) software to run on it. > > > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I suppose I'm just curious as to what systems from the 1940's to 1970's >> have >> survived, as most of the talk on here seems to be of more recent (1970's >> and >> 1980's) hardware and very little gets said about the earlier stuff. > > This is partly why I collect 60s-era calculators. They are examples of > complex digital > systems (ALU,memory,I/O,control - everything but the > general-purpose/stored-program), > available in discrete and SSI implementations, but more available and > manageable > (size/weight/power) than full computer systems of the era. > > Digital frequency counters from the 50s/60s also provide examples of early > digital technology, constructed using the same sorts of circuitry and > techniques as computers of the same era). I keep a couple of > vacuum-tube-based > digital counters around, along with discrete-transistor and SSI versions, > as comparable > examples of the generations of digital electronics. > HP tube counters seem to still be around in some quantity (vacuum-tube > counters > and logic, > not just NIXIE displays). > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Dec 19 22:08:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:08:55 -0500 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haulofold pc stuph)) Message-ID: <0IRS00M8C3HMWI3E@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haulofold pc stuph)) > From: Richard > Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:51:46 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >In article , > William Donzelli writes: > >> > Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect >> > mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial >> > number. >> > >> > For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. >> > >> > Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter >> > the serial #s of their common computers? >> >> This is mostly a pointless excercise, sorry to report. Serial numbers are >> notoriously non-sequential. [...] > >I'm not asserting that serial number #288801 would be "more valuable" >than my serial number of 388801, but it can still be fun to try and >get a lower serial number with mass-produced parts. > >As you say, there is no real correlation between the serial number and >its provenance, but not everything in collecting has to do with >provenance or market value.... >-- Nope missed one. One issue for me is how can I use it or incoperate other systems parts. Think in terms or builing a period roadster using exclusively period parts. To me a basic plain NS* is a fun box. Then I start thinking but with a Compupro 85/88 dual cpu, and MPX1 slave cpu and M-drive ramdisk it's more interesting as that is what would someone might have done then if they had a liberal budget back then. I don't have the budgest but I have several boxes of S100 cards from then. So why not do now what I wished I could have done then. Allison From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Dec 19 22:12:13 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:12:13 -0500 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) References: Message-ID: <005201c6051b$8f76c7e0$0100a8c0@screamer> My 1969 Imlac PDS-1 has a serial number of 2. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 19 22:23:43 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:23:43 -0600 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> References: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A7874F.9090705@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/20/2005 at 12:15 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: ... > Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that > were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine > which half to use. I don't know if these were in general circulation, but > the sales engineers were passing them out to customers working on designs. > I may still have one or two kicking around that I found actually had 16K > worth of usable bits, providing they weren't run too fast. > > And there was bubble memory with a flaw map. > > Aren't some (or all) high-density DRAMs now made with extra rows and colums > to improve yields? > > Cheers, > Chuck I recall reading during one of the DRAM crunches (1986 or 1987) that tandy bought their own $M tester to sort rejects that they bought cheap, doing the same thing that you describe intel doing. Redundancy in DRAM, row and column, has been in use for 20 years at least. At the ASIC level, largish SRAMs typically also have redundant rows and columns (largish meaning more than a few kbits). It is also common knowledge that 3d chips, with their massive parallelism, also practice large granularity logic reundancy, eg the perfect chips produce 16 pixels per clock and ones with defects produce 12 pixels per clock. Sure, bubble memories had defect lists, but so do hard disks. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 19 22:27:08 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:27:08 -0600 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <005201c6051b$8f76c7e0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <005201c6051b$8f76c7e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <43A7881C.6050204@pacbell.net> Bob Shannon wrote: > My 1969 Imlac PDS-1 has a serial number of 2. My very first ebay purchase about five or six years ago was a TRS-80 model 4. It wasn't known to me at the time of the sale, but it was serial number 430 or so (low to mid 400s). UPS however managed to destroy it, but that isn't the point. Considering the volume of machines tandy made, my serial #43x trs-80 had a lower serial number than your imlac in terms of number of units produced. Therefore, it was more rare. Want to swap? :-) From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 19 18:24:16 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:24:16 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> I had hoped to use the holiday to think this over, however I continue to receive private email badgering me about the ImageDisk source code. I received one this evening from a list member who states that I have caused harm by my development of the program, and apparently I am also being held responsible for at least one pile of "hard to find" disks that will not be preserved because of my efforts. I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. Effective immediately, I have cancled the ImageDisk project. My offer to make the source code available by request is hereby withdrawn. I have removed the images section from my site. If you have copies of any of this material, I would respectfully ask you to please delete them, or at least not make my material available. I want this program to have never existed. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 19 22:39:11 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 21:39:11 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:24:16 +0000. <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: In article <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca at dunfield.com>, "Dave Dunfield" writes: > I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. Might I ask that you take a nice holiday break and reconsider your position next year some time? Its annoying to have one whiner ruin it for everyone :-). If you don't wish to reconsider, that's cool too, but I hate it when some bitch & moan types pester people to the point where they stop participating in a community. It happened in my little demoscene circle just recently as has shut itself down for similar reasons to what you cite (although they weren't e-harassed, they weren't assisted either). For all you B&M types out there: it would help if you remembered that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, particularly when the people are working as volunteers. Regardless, I hope you have a happy Christmas break, Dave! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Dec 19 22:39:14 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:39:14 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43A78AF2.2060700@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I had hoped to use the holiday to think this over, however I continue to > receive private email badgering me about the ImageDisk source code. > I received one this evening from a list member who states that I have caused > harm by my development of the program, and apparently I am also being > held responsible for at least one pile of "hard to find" disks that will not be > preserved because of my efforts. Holy shit. If I sent a batch of homemade cookies along with that adapter, would you reconsider? Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 19 22:43:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:43:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For all you B&M types out there: it would help if you remembered that > you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, particularly when > the people are working as volunteers. And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles and go home in a snit - reneging on his earlier statement (I'd even say "commitment") that he'd make the source available when he was no longer able or willing to maintain it himself, I might note - because someone points out that he's _wrong_ in thinking that no harm is done by ivory-tower "you'll get it when I think it's good and ready" development? I went back and reread the note that Dave is (apparently) reacting to: < I am not sure you've done no harm by so doing... I know for a fact < that at least one person was working on an open-source disk archiver, < but has dropped that project, at least for the moment, because he < doesn't want to create yet another incompatible file format, and < would have wanted to see how you did things (not wasting time < re-inventing the wheel and all that). We'd all better hope his pile < of hard-to-find disks [...] remain[s] readable a little longer. This hardly qualifies as bitching and moaning to me, with the *possible* exception of the last sentence. Of course, Dave's choice of reaction to this information is up to him. But really, after rereading the full note I quoted from (there's a good deal more to it, but I don't think the above is unrepresentative - I'd call it all fair and polite criticism), and rereading Dave's reaction, it's pretty clear to me which one is more "bitching and moaning". Yes, I too hope Dave reconsiders. But I don't think stifling fair criticism - and that's what I think it was - because its target reacts badly to it is ever a good idea. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Dec 20 00:17:48 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:17:48 -0600 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) Message-ID: <9a03e29632444d749cd01f6bbde3acb1@valleyimplants.com> I have my two RS/6000s where the property tags are an added bonus - Intel. Not much history there, but I enjoy indulging my computer elitism with a mental remark of "even Intel needs to use a real architecture to get things done". From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Dec 20 00:53:31 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:53:31 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43A7AA6B.7010501@pacbell.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: ... > I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. > Effective immediately, I have cancled the ImageDisk project. My offer to > make the source code available by request is hereby withdrawn. I have > removed the images section from my site. If you have copies of any of this > material, I would respectfully ask you to please delete them, or at least not > make my material available. I want this program to have never existed. This is bad news, and I hope Dave reconsiders. I'm disappointed he let the irritating few get under his skin, and I'm sure those appreciative of his efforts far outnumber those who were critical. After Don Maslin's death and the apparent loss of his collection of disks and images, there was a lot of group discussion of how to go about collecting such a library again and this time using a format that wasn't so obscure as teledisk (which was I'm sure motivated by goals, such as compactness, that aren't a constraint for pure archival) and that was maintained. That was replaced by the sound of crickets, then Dave went and did something about it. Not only did he write the software, he had a good start on many boot disks that are not available anywhere else (that I'm aware of anyway). I've invested some effort, certainly not nearly as much as Dave, in archiving 50-100 different disks using his tools (for machines as diverse as northstar, sol, wang, sage, bondwell), and I've convinced a few others to use them as well. Some of my machine web pages have IMD images on them. It will take me some time to keep offering the bits but without the IMD-ness. I guess the best I can do at this point is convert the disk images to raw sector dumps. So maybe we can hope that that open source disk archiver project will now move forward that Dave's simple and documented format is no longer somehow hindering its development. To that end, I'd like a pointer to it to see if it will work for me. If it isn't online that means either the program is just someone's idle thought (in which case, get in line behind the million other good things to work on "when I have the time"), or it is, uh, an unpublished open source program. Like Dave's. But unproven. Not being a big drinker, I'm going to have to go find an old databook or BIOS listing to console myself. As long as I'm posting, I might as well mention that this past weekend I scanned about 45 datasheets, ads, and a few larger documents and put them up on my Wang 2200 documents page. I also posted about a dozen other similar types of documents that Paul Heller scanned and sent. List of newly uploaded files: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/whats_new.html The page with all of the docs: http://www.thebattles.net/wang/docs.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 20 01:17:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:17:58 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20051220021758.45a4aa8b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Sometimes Metcalf and his 'open sores' metaphor really starts to make sense. Would you guys have kicked Michaelangeo off his scaffold? He was doing his work in a Cathederal, you know, not a Bazzar. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 20 01:41:49 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:41:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from Dave Dunfield at "Dec 20, 5 00:24:16 am" Message-ID: <200512200741.XAA06912@floodgap.com> > I had hoped to use the holiday to think this over, however I continue to > receive private email badgering me about the ImageDisk source code. > I received one this evening from a list member who states that I have caused > harm by my development of the program, and apparently I am also being > held responsible for at least one pile of "hard to find" disks that will not > be preserved because of my efforts. Well, I hope whoever that is, is happy with themselves. I don't blame you one bit. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." ----- From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Mon Dec 19 15:07:09 2005 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:07:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: has anyone ever even seen a Canon AS-100? In-Reply-To: <20051218032012.89027.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1EoSDu-1YKtJg0@fwd26.sul.t-online.de> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:20:12 -0800 (PST), Chris M wrote: >its an all-in-one ms-dos (not pc) compatible, like a >Lisa but more square. Can anyone suggert a strategy >for finding something exceedingly dopey and uncommon? >Viewable on old-computers.com. Japanese computers in >general intrigue me, but many just werent sold here, >at least not to any great extent. The AS-100 was, but >apparently not too many. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? Did you gOOgle ? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/bhr/ordinateurs-autrefois/id199.htm or diskimages og 5.25' system http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/cannon/canon-as.100/in fo.html Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Mon Dec 19 22:02:50 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:02:50 -0500 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200512200414.jBK4Emnn058207@keith.ezwind.net> I got Zenith Z100 Serial number 2 from the lab, lots of 30 gage engineering changes. Bob On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:51:46 -0700, Richard wrote: >In article , > William Donzelli writes: >> > Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect >> > mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial >> > number. >> > >> > For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. >> > >> > Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter >> > the serial #s of their common computers? >> >> This is mostly a pointless excercise, sorry to report. Serial numbers are >> notoriously non-sequential. [...] >I'm not asserting that serial number #288801 would be "more valuable" >than my serial number of 388801, but it can still be fun to try and >get a lower serial number with mass-produced parts. >As you say, there is no real correlation between the serial number and >its provenance, but not everything in collecting has to do with >provenance or market value.... >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 20 01:54:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Dec 19, 5 11:43:39 pm" Message-ID: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> > > For all you B&M types out there: it would help if you remembered that > > you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, particularly when > > the people are working as volunteers. > > And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles > and go home in a snit - reneging on his earlier statement (I'd even say > "commitment") that he'd make the source available when he was no longer > able or willing to maintain it himself, I might note - because someone > points out that he's _wrong_ in thinking that no harm is done by > ivory-tower "you'll get it when I think it's good and ready" > development? Ah, so he's just supposed to sit there and take it? Besides the fact that he's getting a bit more than that, as implied by: "however I continue to receive private email badgering me about the ImageDisk source code. I received one this evening from a list member who states that I have caused harm by my development of the program" (in addition to the E-mail you quoted, which it does appear Dave was also replying to directly). > Yes, I too hope Dave reconsiders. But I don't think stifling fair > criticism - and that's what I think it was - because its target reacts > badly to it is ever a good idea. I'm not sure what you think people are supposed to do. You quoted a single E-mail as if it were all Dave was reacting to, which it was not. There's a time for criticism and a time for support, and after Dave said he would release the source when he was good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he doesn't have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), then he gets these kinds of cretins coming out from under the woodwork. If Dave is getting criticism instead of support, then I fully support his decision to pull the plug. I'd do exactly the same thing. Rant off. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. --- From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 19 23:04:53 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 05:04:53 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: Message-ID: <20051220091123.MYKZ9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles Lots of EXACTLY the kind of crap I don't need snipped... > Yes, I too hope Dave reconsiders. But I don't think stifling fair > criticism - and that's what I think it was - because its target reacts > badly to it is ever a good idea. Mouse, You are free to criticise as much as you like - you appear to have a talent for it. But keep in mind that there is such a thing as "constructive criticism" and then there's the other kind. So lets back up a little: There's a need to backup the software for classic systems. After observing a fair bit of "criticism" in the list regarding the unsuitability of the methods available, I decided to do something about it. To date I have created ImageDisk, several transfer program for dealing with systems which cannot be imaged with a PC controller, and updated several of my PC based simulators to support these schemes. In all cases, I have openly documented the format of the archived images - something I think is FAR more important than the program source code - the whole point of ImageDisk was to get the data into a format which could be manipulated and extracted by other means if necessary (and I expect it will be at some point in the future). I'd estimate that I have put well over a hundred hours into the ImageDisk project - add to that the time taken on the other imaging programs, and the time I've spent building the image archive, and I would be well over what I could afford if I were paying for my own time. I have been sharing the results of this effort as I see fit, and asking nothing in return. Up until two days ago, I was under the impression that these efforts were generally appreciated and of use to people. Now all of a sudden I am being blasted with complaints from a few very vocal list members about my not providing source code. I immediately addressed this - I offered to make the code available on a per- request basis until I am ready to make a public release, however much of what you did not include in the quotes, was statements about how wonderful GPL is, why my code MUST be released under GPL to be useful to the sender of that message, and how all of my attempts to explain why I disagree with this are "non-sequiter". Before I go further, let me make one thing perfectly clear: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing I write will *EVER* be released under FSF's GPL - because I DON'T AGREE with the GPL - this is my opinion and right - get over it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But I continue to be harped at because I have not released the sources under GPL - with each correspondance the message gets stronger - It started with my being advised that my actions would cause an individual to "HAVE to create his own format", and today that same member has notified me that I am causing harm to classic computing, and being responsible for valuable data not being preserved. I see these increasing rants as being an attempt to browbeat me into GPLing the sources, not as constructive criticism. For the record, NOBODY took me up on my "per request" offer for the source code.I did make the mistake of using the term "NDA" as a simple means of indicating that I would not want source code so requested to be redistributed, and since then every correspondance from one individual has mentioned "fear of legal action" if even an "Idea" from my program were to leak into his own work, and oh by the way, GPL would remove this fear. My attempt to explain that this is not the purpose of my positioning and assurances that this would not happen, and that he would not be required to sign anything have fallen on deaf ears. It's been made very clear that it's "GPL or nothing", so we end up with nothing. For the record: I didn't care a rats-ass about the "ideas" in ImageDisk - there's nothing overly tricky or proprietary in there. The only real value in the program was the fact that the storage format is openly documented. In case this has not been obvious, I hearby release the ImageDisk image file format into the public domain. At this point, it appears that nothing I can do (short of GPLing the sources which ain't gonna happen) to make you happy - However, since we are not "criticising" the other members of the list who have not created imaging software, lets just say that: ImageDisk is gone off the table - it never happened. With that out of the way, we can put aside our petty differences and get back to the important issues relating to the archiving of software for classic systems such as: criticising TeleDisk criticising Catweasel criticising the limitations of physical media storage criticising ... -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 03:04:49 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:04:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> References: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Ah, so he's just supposed to sit there and take it? Well, you know, he *might* even actually *listen* to some of it. When all else fails, of course. Not all criticism is pointless mudsliging. There *are* reactions other than "well then I'm going to take my marbles and go home, so there!" and just sitting there and "taking" (more accurately, "ignoring") it. For example, he could have said "thanks for pointing that out; I still come down on the side of not releasing source". Or he could have said "thanks for pointing that out; it tips the balance the other way for me". Or he could have composed a rebuttal. Or.... Or, of course, he could have just deleted the mail and quietly gone ahead and done what he was going to do anyway. What we say and think about him matters to him only as much as he lets it. > [...], and after Dave said he would release the source when he was > good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he doesn't > have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), His *right*, feh. People have a right to do a huge variety of things, a number of them positively antisocial. This isn't about rights and never has been; everyone who's mentioned rights, as far as I've seen, agrees on them. It's about our various opinions of Dave, or more precisely of his release policy for IamgeDisk, and his reactions to them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Dec 20 03:57:09 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:57:09 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> References: <43A698D0.1040301@yahoo.co.uk> <43A6C970.9050209@yahoo.co.uk> <200512190906130507.3C730D05@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A7D575.7050302@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would that be the IBM 1620 at CHM? That's 1960 or thereabouts; not > particularly old. I'd think that someone still has a 1401 or 704 still up > and running somewhere. IIRC, the core was degraded beyond reclamation. I'd be very interested to hear that a 704 was still running somewhere! Paul Pierce has a 709 in his collection, but his website makes no claim that is running. At the time of the CHM 1620 restoration, the restoration team was in contact with a fellow who had a running 1620 that he had owned for some years. His machine was running with authentic IMB core. I have no idea if it still runs. --Bill From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 03:24:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 04:24:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220091123.MYKZ9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051220091123.MYKZ9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512200958.EAA05193@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But keep in mind that there is such a thing as "constructive > criticism" and then there's the other kind. > [...the basis for creating ImageDisk...] > Up until two days ago, I was under the impression that these efforts > were generally appreciated and of use to people. Now all of a sudden > I am being blasted with complaints from a few very vocal list members > about my not providing source code. Since you chose my message to respond to, I reply - but I can speak only for myself. I think the only thing I've ever said that's even vaguely like that is that your release policy diminished my opinion of you somewhat. > I immediately addressed this - I offered to make the code available > on a per-request basis until I am ready to make a public release, > however much of what you did not include in the quotes, was > statements about how wonderful GPL is, why my code MUST be released > under GPL to be useful to the sender of that message, and how all of > my attempts to explain why I disagree with this are "non-sequiter". I don't know what you've received privately, of course. I've just gone back and reread, again, the message I quoted an excerpt from. its author mentions the GPL, but, at least to my reading, is not pressuring you to use the GPL; indeed, it seems to me that he was trying to collaborate with you to find ways for you to get certain good effects of the GPL without having to take the whole thing. I'm no fan of the GPL either; I find it hypocritical, in large part inappropriate, and accompanied by a rabid fan culture I find repellent. But it does have some good aspects, and I think anyone contemplating writing a license for source-code release should at least have a look at it for things to adopt, adapt, and avoid. > For the record, NOBODY took me up on my "per request" offer for the > source code. I did make the mistake of using the term "NDA" as a > simple means of indicating that I would not want source code so > requested to be redistributed, and since then every correspondance > from one individual has mentioned "fear of legal action" if even an > "Idea" from my program were to leak into his own work, and oh by the > way, GPL would remove this fear. I saw fragments of one message that mentioned fear of legal action, in an off-list response you Cc:ed me in on (and which I wrote a response to, but couldn't send to you). In today's legal climate, unfortunately, such fear is well-founded. The only really effective way to assuage it is a clear copyright license (or statement of public domain status). > At this point, it appears that nothing I can do (short of GPLing the > sources which ain't gonna happen) to make you happy - I'm not sure whom "you" refers to here. If it's me, you have a very badly mistaken impression, but since I haven't been saying any of the things you seem to be basing this on, I suspect it's more aimed at the unnamed person from whom you've been getting GPL badgering. > lets just say that: ImageDisk is gone off the table - I'm sure that will help matters immensely. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 20 04:04:53 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 05:04:53 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <01C60523.05F87100@mse-d03> Well, I've certainly learned a valuable lesson; now that I know that, if I ever spend as much time as Dave has developing something useful for the CC community, I will actually cause harm unless I release the source code (whether I think it's ready for prime time or not), I'll certainly keep it to myself. By this "logic" every company or individual that releases a piece of software without source code is causing harm by keeping someone else from writing their own version. Perhaps it's time for a class-action law suit or two... Whoever was writing the other archiver was certainly free to use Dave's well-documented format or, if he/she really had a better idea, implementing it and presenting that to the community, with source of course. Also, the person with that pile of "hard-to-find disks" is free to use any other tool they like in whatever format they choose; if they choose not to because they don't have Dave's source, that's hardly Dave's fault. Then again, blaming someone else for your own choices seems to be pretty popular these days. It's unfortunate, but I don't blame Dave one bit. We do this sort of thing in order to help other people and when we get more criticism (often unjustified) than appreciation, it really isn't worth our while; I don't think he's B&Ming, he's just saying hey, if you don't like it, by all means do it yourself; I don't need the crap. I've said it before: every time we discourage someone with the self-important opinionating, criticism, sarcasm, OT rambling etc. that seems to be so common on some computer lists, our community loses a potentially valuable resource. I just hope there's some way without too much effort to salvage the archiving that Jim (and others?) have done. mike ----------------Original Message---------------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:43:39 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles and go home in a snit - reneging on his earlier statement (I'd even say "commitment") that he'd make the source available when he was no longer able or willing to maintain it himself, I might note - because someone points out that he's _wrong_ in thinking that no harm is done by ivory-tower "you'll get it when I think it's good and ready" development? I went back and reread the note that Dave is (apparently) reacting to: < I am not sure you've done no harm by so doing... I know for a fact < that at least one person was working on an open-source disk archiver, < but has dropped that project, at least for the moment, because he < doesn't want to create yet another incompatible file format, and < would have wanted to see how you did things (not wasting time < re-inventing the wheel and all that). We'd all better hope his pile < of hard-to-find disks [...] remain[s] readable a little longer. This hardly qualifies as bitching and moaning to me, with the *possible* exception of the last sentence. Of course, Dave's choice of reaction to this information is up to him. But really, after rereading the full note I quoted from (there's a good deal more to it, but I don't think the above is unrepresentative - I'd call it all fair and polite criticism), and rereading Dave's reaction, it's pretty clear to me which one is more "bitching and moaning". Yes, I too hope Dave reconsiders. But I don't think stifling fair criticism - and that's what I think it was - because its target reacts badly to it is ever a good idea. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 20 04:15:06 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 05:15:06 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) Message-ID: <01C60524.79F99880@mse-d03> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:53:26 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) >Does anyone still collect UR equipment? A 407 is darned near a computer. Don't forget the 604, one of the few "electronic" UR machines; could heat a fair sized room with its tubes. I've still got the manual for the one I worked with back in those prehistoric days. mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 05:38:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:38:01 +0000 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A7ED19.3040702@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> Lately I've been wondering if anyone attempts to collect >> mass-manufactured memorabilia by trying to get the lowest serial >> number. >> >> For instance, I have an Atari 800 serial #388801. >> >> Has anyone done a wiki/database type web page where everyone can enter >> the serial #s of their common computers? > > This is mostly a pointless excercise, sorry to report. Serial numbers are > notoriously non-sequential. Some companies purposely skip chunks in the > series, and many actually will not start at 1 (it looks bad). To add to > that, the serial numbers can change as a system goes thru the factory - > #1 probably was not actually the first off the line, but the one > closest to the guy that put the stickers on when the shift started. The > real bastard companies are the ones that reuse serials! The only case I find low numbers interesting is when a company gives pre-production models serial numbers too - so I find it worthwhile hunting out the early pre-production examples of a machine just to see how its design altered over time or what hardware mods were done to get it into a fit production state. For serial numbers in general, it can be handy to track numbers for machines which had very low production runs as a way of estimating how many machines were made - as this information isn't often known otherwise. Such low-volume machines tend to have a few quirky differences too; it's almost like having a hand-built car I suppose - so it's interesting to see what changes happened when. But for machines with large production runs where there are maybe thousands of machines for any given board revision, I can't see a good reason to go hunting out lower numbers myself. I suppose it brings a bit of a smile when you hear of a machine still running that was one of the very earliest of its kind made, but other than that... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 05:42:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:42:13 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A7EE15.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > Not all criticism is pointless mudsliging. There *are* reactions other > than "well then I'm going to take my marbles and go home, so there!" > and just sitting there and "taking" (more accurately, "ignoring") it. > > For example, he could have said "thanks for pointing that out; I still > come down on the side of not releasing source". Which he did do early on IIRC, by saying that he'd release source under some kind of "no support / don't publish elsewhere" agreement, because he didn't see it fit for public release yet. I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. Surely it suits those who worry about having source in order to maintain their tools or enhance for their own use. It makes no difference to those who don't care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are those who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though it were all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be happy with someone who did that. I can't see what possible good could come of then continuing to talk about it not being good enough etc. - as seems to have been shown in this case :-( From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 20 02:29:28 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:29:28 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A7AA6B.7010501@pacbell.net> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051220123634.QJSQ9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I've invested some effort, certainly not nearly as much as Dave, in archiving > 50-100 different disks using his tools (for machines as diverse as northstar, > sol, wang, sage, bondwell), and I've convinced a few others to use them as well. > Some of my machine web pages have IMD images on them. It will take me some > time to keep offering the bits but without the IMD-ness. I guess the best I can > do at this point is convert the disk images to raw sector dumps. Jim, My apologies - in my haste to end this, I failed to consider that others may have already invested time into it and therefore be inconvienenced by my decision. This just won't do - so I will revise my previous posting to NOT ask you to delete the program - Anyone who has files archived with ImageDisk may post the program to your own site(s) - I assume you have a copy of the original ZIP file. If you do not, email me and I will provide a private URL where it can be obtained. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 20 07:10:36 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:10:36 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >>For all you B&M types out there: it would help if you remembered that >>you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, particularly when >>the people are working as volunteers. > > > And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles > and go home in a snit - reneging on his earlier statement (I'd even say > "commitment") that he'd make the source available when he was no longer > able or willing to maintain it himself, I might note - because someone > points out that he's _wrong_ in thinking that no harm is done by > ivory-tower "you'll get it when I think it's good and ready" > development? Even if Dave hadn't made it clear that the source is privately available now, and will be publicly available in the future, there's one glaring point here. It's HIS freakin' code. Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? And the rest of whoever's having an issue with this? What are YOU doing for the community? Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. I'm a HUGE fan of Open Source development. I believe it's changed the face and the future of computing. Still, I don't believe that the GPL is the Be-All and End-All of OSS, and first and foremost, I believe in this: The SOB who does the work gets to choose what he does with it. Period. Doc From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Dec 20 07:19:19 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:19:19 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A70F46.9000308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A6AE27.6030706@yahoo.co.uk> <43A70CD4.4020504@jetnet.ab.ca> <43A70F46.9000308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43A804D7.9070200@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Would be nice to have it running again though. I only realised at the > weekend that there's a massive lighting strip built into the back of the > control desk - quite why you'd want to run it in an otherwise dark room > I don't know! Because it *looks cool*. Old Hammond organs often have a wander light mounted inside, for working on them. Gordon. From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 07:43:12 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:43:12 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A7EE15.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A7EE15.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051220134312.GA22529@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:42:13AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are those > who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though it were > all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be happy with > someone who did that. You don't get it - that's exactly what GPL protects against. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 07:51:14 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:51:14 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? And the rest of whoever's having an > issue with this? What are YOU doing for the community? They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. > > Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's > taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format > freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. > And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it for you. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 08:16:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:16:35 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <43A81243.8030706@yahoo.co.uk> Christer O. Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? And the rest of whoever's having an >> issue with this? What are YOU doing for the community? > > They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. It *is* available. It's just not downloadable from any website because it's not considered by the author to yet be polished enough for people to be adding their own features and working on collaborative development. To be honest, I expect the most successful OSS projects are the ones where a reasonable first release is done in relative isolation by one or more people in order to get things rolling, before it being flung open to a wider audience. Otherwise you end up with everyone who wishes to contribute having a different and often conflicting idea of what are desirable features, and the whole thing degenerates into a mess where nothing gets done. >> Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's >> taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format >> freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. > > And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the > source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, > your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available > you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it > for you. But, yet again, source *is* available, and Dave made that clear early on. I really don't get why so many people seem to be missing that point. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 08:25:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:25:00 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220134312.GA22529@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A7EE15.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> <20051220134312.GA22529@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <43A8143C.4010402@yahoo.co.uk> Christer O. Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:42:13AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are those >> who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though it were >> all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be happy with >> someone who did that. > > You don't get it - that's exactly what GPL protects against. You snipped the rest of my message where I pointed out that Dave has said that he doesn't consider the code ready for a full public release yet. The GPL, as I understand it, would give anyone the right to modify *and distribute* (including in modified form) the source, and it's not considered by the author to yet be at a sufficient release point to do that and open it up completely (whether under the GPL or some other scheme). So whether the GPL would or would not eventually fit the needs is irrelevant at the present time because it would impose rules that are unsuitable for the code in its present state. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Dec 20 08:26:27 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:26:27 +0000 Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> References: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A81493.6080104@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that > were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine > which half to use. I don't know if these were in general circulation, but > the sales engineers were passing them out to customers working on designs. > I may still have one or two kicking around that I found actually had 16K > worth of usable bits, providing they weren't run too fast. The ZX Spectrum actually has jumpers on the board to specify whether you're using "top half bad" 32Kx1 or "bottom half bad", for the upper 32k. Of course the ones that always went were the bloody awful 4116es. Gordon From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 20 08:26:54 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:26:54 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <005801c60571$6d43c8c0$2fcfbd41@game> This thread is like a soap opera. If you offer to program a utility for the "comunity" you should expect a decent amount of email in reply that runs from praise to ridicule. People will be bugging you to add features you probably dont have time for. Others will want to see the sourcecode because they want to see how it is done, to take the guts and modify the interface, just to have it, or maybe even to modify and sell. You should think about what you are getting into before going public. The reason there are not alot of multi platform disk archivers is because the person doing the programming on their own gets bored with the project, or quits in the middle of it when somebody gets on their nerves. The tools I use for backing up and restoring disk images are platform dependant and that is fine with me. I find groups of programmers for specific platforms tend to finish their utilities because they need them for their hobby, and if one person loses motivation another takes his place. I am not criticising anybody for attempting to go it alone, but it is easy for the developer to get a bruised ego because they take any criticism personally while a team of developers (with a smaller platform specific project) tend to ignore the chatter and turn out a project they are happy with. There are pitfalls to going public with a project, if being in the spotlight and everything associated with that is not your thing then think twice about going public in the first place. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 08:42:10 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:42:10 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <005801c60571$6d43c8c0$2fcfbd41@game> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <005801c60571$6d43c8c0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <43A81842.6080409@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > This thread is like a soap opera. > > If you offer to program a utility for the "comunity" you should expect a > decent amount of email in reply that runs from praise to ridicule. Yep, but I'd not expect the outright *public* hostility that's come from some corners over this; you're right in that private opinions - both good and bad - are to be expected. Public comments along the lines of "I wish app abc did xyz" don't seem too unreasonable either. I'm hardly surprised though at Dave being upset over the "it doesn't do xyz therefore the whole thing is a waste of time and total shit" attitude which seems to come across from some. I just hope that Dave realises that there are many of us who appreciate all his hard work and the abilities of ImageDisk in its current form, regardless of what future direction it might take. Just because a small minority don't consider it good enough for their purposes does not mean that there aren't far more of out there who are making good use of his tools. > I am not criticising anybody for attempting to go it alone, but it is easy > for the developer to get a bruised ego because they take any criticism > personally while a team of developers (with a smaller platform specific > project) tend to ignore the chatter and turn out a project they are happy > with. I suspect it's more the way that the criticism was directed that's the issue, rather than the fact that it happened at all. If Dave's been publishing software for years and running his own company around this, it's not unreasonable to think that he's had to handle negative opinions in the past before as well as good ones. cheers Jules From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Dec 20 08:45:03 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:45:03 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: As one who has developed a classic-related program, I can say that I can understand Dave's side. The Altair32 project generally receives mostly positive feedback with a sprinkling of "wish list" items and a one-off rant. I've also had only one person complain about the licensing (actually, the lack thereof) which I largely ignored because after I investigated all of the "open" licensing types and couldn't come up with one I liked and that fit how the code has developed through outside contributions. Feedback has even resulted in several contributors to the project, a few of whom lurk on this list. I will say that the times I've received well-intentioned criticism I do take it personally because I've poured so much effort into the project. Then, I step back and say that it's not personal, it's just comments on the product. Within the criticism there is a different point of view and if it ultimately results in a better product, then that's good. Do you think Bill Gates loses sleep at night because people complain about Windows? No, but it drives Microsoft to at least attempt to improve the product (even if they don't succeed). The code I've written could be considered godawful ugly by an experienced programmer, but it works. I felt that getting the program and the code out there for people to use and modify was more important than how it looked. Maybe that's a na?ve way to look at it; I don't know. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled This thread is like a soap opera. If you offer to program a utility for the "comunity" you should expect a decent amount of email in reply that runs from praise to ridicule. People will be bugging you to add features you probably dont have time for. Others will want to see the sourcecode because they want to see how it is done, to take the guts and modify the interface, just to have it, or maybe even to modify and sell. You should think about what you are getting into before going public. The reason there are not alot of multi platform disk archivers is because the person doing the programming on their own gets bored with the project, or quits in the middle of it when somebody gets on their nerves. The tools I use for backing up and restoring disk images are platform dependant and that is fine with me. I find groups of programmers for specific platforms tend to finish their utilities because they need them for their hobby, and if one person loses motivation another takes his place. I am not criticising anybody for attempting to go it alone, but it is easy for the developer to get a bruised ego because they take any criticism personally while a team of developers (with a smaller platform specific project) tend to ignore the chatter and turn out a project they are happy with. There are pitfalls to going public with a project, if being in the spotlight and everything associated with that is not your thing then think twice about going public in the first place. From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 08:47:48 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:47:48 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A81243.8030706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> <43A81243.8030706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051220144748.GC22529@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:16:35PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Christer O. Andersson wrote: > >They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. > > It *is* available. It's just not downloadable from any website because it's > not considered by the author to yet be polished enough for people to be > adding their own features and working on collaborative development. That makes it almost avaiable. Dave admitted it to be a mistake to mention "NDA", and I agree. If the code is polished enough for people to use, it ought to be polished enough to read. > >> Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's > >>taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format > >>freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he > >>pleases. > > > >And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > >malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the > >source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, > >your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available > >you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it > >for you. > > But, yet again, source *is* available, and Dave made that clear early on. I > really don't get why so many people seem to be missing that point. > The "NDA" makes it impossible to share the source, whether you have made any improvements yourself, or if you want to ask somebody else to help you modify something due to a bug somewhere. You are not allowed to do that. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Dec 20 08:59:52 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 08:59:52 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> Christer O. Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? And the rest of whoever's having an >>issue with this? What are YOU doing for the community? > > > They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. > > >> Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's >>taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format >>freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. >> > > > And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the > source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, > your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available > you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it > for you. Ahhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg. Christer, you are talking in hypotheticals. You have open source religion. Dave was going to release the source, just not yet. Yes, perhaps he is too sensitive about it, but it is his code. So far it seems like there are three groups of people: (1) those who don't care one way or another (2) those who were using his programs and were happy with the situation (3) open source bigots who insist that the world should adhere to their vision of things. for you and others, it is a polemic exercise. so group #3, who aren't using the software, are now happy because they have somehow purified the world in some abstract and hypthetical way. group #2, including me, are now harmed materially. some in group #1 have also lost something, although they won't realize that a year from now when they ask the list for a boot disk to machine xyz and it isn't available. open source existed before any of this came up. yet it didn't somehow magically cause a solution to spring into existance. it was the efforts of an individual who made it happen. now Dave has "died the death of 1000 cuts" and shut down. Yes, an open source solution would be great. BUT ONE DOESN'T EXIST. The one that was real and was on track to becoming open source died in the crib. Any benefit of OS is just a mental exercise until then. As for losing a disk -- you obviously are a sideline kibitzer. Dave did document his format. It is trivial (a header with some fixed fields and one variable field for holding a disk label, then a straight linear sector dump). He even included some tools for converting to/from a raw sector dump. Have you used his tools? Looked at what he was offering? Why do you feel fit to comment on it if you haven't? Personally I'm disgusted by the purists who think they've achieved something here. You had nothing to lose. I did, and I've lost it. Thanks for your help. From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 08:57:01 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:57:01 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A8143C.4010402@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200512200754.XAA06982@floodgap.com> <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A7EE15.2010305@yahoo.co.uk> <20051220134312.GA22529@bass.mejeriet.home> <43A8143C.4010402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20051220145701.GD22529@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:25:00PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Christer O. Andersson wrote: > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:42:13AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >>care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are > >>those who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though > >>it were all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be > >>happy with someone who did that. > > > >You don't get it - that's exactly what GPL protects against. > > You snipped the rest of my message where I pointed out that Dave has said > that he doesn't consider the code ready for a full public release yet. The > GPL, as I understand it, would give anyone the right to modify *and > distribute* (including in modified form) the source, and it's not > considered by the author to yet be at a sufficient release point to do that > and open it up completely (whether under the GPL or some other scheme). > > So whether the GPL would or would not eventually fit the needs is > irrelevant at the present time because it would impose rules that are > unsuitable for the code in its present state. I was trying to make a point - the GPL is not a good license if you want to rip off somebodys code. It protects against that. Dave shouldn't pick a license he doesn't like, of course. There are a lot of licenses available. I think ImageDisk would be more spread and used if the source was public, and I would believe that is a kind of reward to the author. I cannot really see any drawback in publishing the source. If you don't want to read it, you don't have to. Publishing the code helps the program to survive, long after the original author gives up on it. That way, you can trust that it will still be available when you need it next time. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 09:12:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:12:28 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220144748.GC22529@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> <43A81243.8030706@yahoo.co.uk> <20051220144748.GC22529@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <43A81F5C.5090208@yahoo.co.uk> Christer O. Andersson wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 02:16:35PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Christer O. Andersson wrote: >>> They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. >> It *is* available. It's just not downloadable from any website because it's >> not considered by the author to yet be polished enough for people to be >> adding their own features and working on collaborative development. > > That makes it almost avaiable. Dave admitted it to be a mistake to > mention "NDA", and I agree. If the code is polished enough for > people to use, it ought to be polished enough to read. Yep, but there's a difference between merely reading it, and with making changes to it in the form of additional features which then get released - all when the author doesn't consider the 'core' of the application to yet be in some form of 'production' state. That could lead to all sorts of nasty branching issues as time goes on. >>>> Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. He's >>>> taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image format >>>> freely available. But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he >>>> pleases. >>> And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it >>> malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the >>> source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, >>> your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available >>> you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it >>> for you. >> But, yet again, source *is* available, and Dave made that clear early on. I >> really don't get why so many people seem to be missing that point. >> > The "NDA" makes it impossible to share the source, whether you have > made any improvements yourself, or if you want to ask somebody else > to help you modify something due to a bug somewhere. You are not > allowed to do that. Yep. But Dave doesn't strike me as the sort of person who'd be against incorporating features / bugfixes back into the core code if they benefit the project - he just wanted *for now* to try and maintain the direction in which the project was heading to avoid any fragmentation. When the software works with a file format that's hoped to become sort of standard, that probably becomes even more important. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 20 09:15:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:15:42 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43A8201E.7080006@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > Personally I'm disgusted by the purists who think they've achieved > something here. You had nothing to lose. I did, and I've lost it. Ditto. ID was on track to be an almost perfect solution to a problem that's been plaguing a lot of us for several years, and now it's no more. I'm just going to go and fume off-list for a few days I think. Grrr. :-( From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 20 09:16:07 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200921.EAA05112@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Dec 20, 5 04:04:49 am" Message-ID: <200512201516.HAA17238@floodgap.com> > > Ah, so he's just supposed to sit there and take it? > > Well, you know, he *might* even actually *listen* to some of it. He did, and people are still bouncing on him all over it even after he made his point and decision (including you, I might add). > > [...], and after Dave said he would release the source when he was > > good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he doesn't > > have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), > > His *right*, feh. That's exactly the attitude I'm referring to. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 10:00:39 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:00:39 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:43:39 -0500. <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200512200506.AAA00329 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > For all you B&M types out there: it would help if you remembered that > > you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, particularly when > > the people are working as volunteers. > > And not a word about how lovely and mature Dave is to take his marbles > and go home in a snit [...] "I don't like the taste of this free beer!" Such arguments do not persuade me to your point of view. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Dec 20 10:36:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:36:41 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:24:16 GMT." <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512201636.jBKGagaG011551@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > >I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. You know, you could just delete the emails and ignore them. You're always going to have 10% of the folks doing stuff which can potentially ruin it for the other 90%. I've put a lot of software out in many forms and I just ignore the folks who are unreasonable. Works like a charm. The good part is that those who are really helpful remain really helpful and more than make up for the lusers. I'd reconcider. Only good can come from yet another way to archive disks. I've hacked that damn NEC floppy controller too (heh, first time was in tiny C on a cp/m machine) - it's a pain. But releasing the source code is *good-thing*(tm). Just ignore stuff which doesn't fit in your plan. You'll never get people to stop being wierd. It's the way of the world. I was going to say a few weeks ago - just put the source code out and let people do with it what they want. It's a zen thing - you get what you resist. -brad From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 10:45:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:45:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? Almost all of it is up for anonymous ftp from ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca. > But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. Everybody keeps saying this as though it somehow makes it all OK. As I remarked in a response to Cameron Kaiser, >> [...], and after Dave said he would release the source when he was >> good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he >> doesn't have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), > His *right*, feh. Just because he has a right to do something does not mean it is a good thing for him to do. (My usual example is farting in a crowded elevator.) Yet I've now seen two people writing as though "it's his right to do this" implies some kind of "he should be not be criticized for doing this". I don't get it. Do you really think it does? > The SOB who does the work gets to choose what he does with it. Certainly. And everyone else gets to think more or less of him for it. As far as I can recall, the only thing I said that was critical of Dave was that his distribution policy took him down a few notches in my eyes. (Well, before he got mad about it, at least; since then I have criticized the way he reacted too.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 20 11:00:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:00:20 -0800 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 8:59 AM -0600 12/20/05, Jim Battle wrote: >CSo far it seems like there are three groups of people: > >(1) those who don't care one way or another > >(2) those who were using his programs and were happy with the situation > >(3) open source bigots who insist that the world should adhere to >their vision of things. for you and others, it is a polemic >exercise. > >so group #3, who aren't using the software, are now happy because >they have somehow purified the world in some abstract and >hypthetical way. group #2, including me, are now harmed materially. >some in group #1 have also lost something, although they won't >realize that a year from now when they ask the list for a boot disk >to machine xyz and it isn't available. So far I've stayed out of all of this. I've been tempted to point out as others have, that Dave's code, and that he can do whatever he wants with it. At the same time, I've not been interested in his software, as far as I know, it's mainly targeted at systems that I don't have much interest in, HOWEVER, I do see the value in it. Group #3 really ticks me off, and as far as I'm concerned they *always* do more harm than good. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 20 11:04:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:04:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A7D575.7050302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > I'd be very interested to hear that a 704 was still running somewhere! > Paul Pierce has a 709 in his collection, but his website makes no claim > that is running. Last time I talked to him, no it was not running - but with something like a 709, I do not blame him! I think one could get a 709 up and running, but it would be a tedious, frustrating process of going thru and weeding out the marginal tubes. That, and hoping that the caps did not go bad, or the connectors have flakey problems, or something else... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 20 11:14:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:14:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: <43A7ED19.3040702@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > For serial numbers in general, it can be handy to track numbers for machines > which had very low production runs as a way of estimating how many machines > were made - as this information isn't often known otherwise. This is exactly where the system falls apart - when a manufacturer skips a block of numbers in a smaller run, it is not very obvious from looking at a small sample distribution. The military has played these games for years. During World War 2 there was a small U.S. intelligence office that would analyze the datatags of captured German and Japanese equipment, and they found that all sorts of info could be gleaned from them - production numbers, locations, subcontractors, etc.. They also realised that the Germans and Japanese could do the very same thing with captured US equipment! Thus, in 1942, there actually was a technical order sent out to deface the datatags on equipment. Military or corporate - the fear of spying is still around, and even little details can give too much away. And then there is the plain old simple reason for screwed up serial numbers - have you ever seen the quality of people that work in factories? How many can not actually even read? When in doubt (often), throw away that box of numbered stickers! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Dec 20 11:22:26 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:22:26 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:00:20 PST." Message-ID: <200512201722.jBKHMQ0W022445@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >>(3) open source bigots who insist that the world should adhere to >>their vision of things. for you and others, it is a polemic >>exercise. [aside: no offense taken or ment by quoting the above. I actually agree with it. but it also made me ponder the bigger question] It might be slightly unfair to paint all "pro open source" folks with the same brush. And 'polemic' has an agressive part to it which I guess I have not seen here. Maybe I was not watching for it. I would just argue that greater good can come from releasing the source code to pretty much any utility. Most of the fears/problems I have seen stated here have not come true in my experience. Most of the time a small group remains in control of the releases and incorporates changes as they see fit. There are rarely "renigade" branches, but when there are, it's often a good thing, as they add a feature which at least some constituancy wants. This rarely turns into a bad thing. Generally the good stuff flourishes. I agree that an author can do as he/she pleases and should always have that right. But I'd also say that a community benefits when the source for their utilities is freely available. I can site some obvious examples where not having the source has held back a more-than-willing community. Recently an author of a lisp machine emulator got frustrated and released his un-working code saying he was done and could do no more. Immediately several other people tried a bunch of things and the whole project jumped forward in a flurry of activity culminating, several months later, in *two* different emulators both workinng and running lisp code. The two projects helped each other and co-debugged and in the end made much more progress than any single project would have made. All I can say is this would not have happened if the author had not decided to release his code. As I said before, it's a Zen thing - you get what you resist. -brad From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 11:50:55 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:50:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Dec 20, 2005 11:45:39 AM Message-ID: <20051220175055.3B4647302A@linus.groomlake.area51> Over the past few years, a friend of mine wrote an HTTP server [1] in C++, intended mainly for use in embedded systems, where something like Apache would be too large or too difficult to use. When he was comfortable enough with the code, he released it under the GPL license, but also provided an alternative license for pure commercial use [2]. Over time, be became aware that multiple companies in China were downloading his webserver and embedding the software into commerical products. Since these companies did not negotiate an alternative license to the GPL, they were then bound to the GPL license and my friend would have been within his rights to buy a unit and demand the source code. His chances of actually *getting* said source code were nil. The Chinese companies don't care and it would have been prohibitively expensive for him to sue. Since his intent was to make money off the codebase (and he spent a few years working on the software [3]---following the HTTP spec [4] isn't easy and there are some rather interesting corner cases). So what did he do? The next release was no longer under the GPL. You want the code, you have to buy it [5]. It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? > > Almost all of it is up for anonymous ftp from > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca. Some interesting stuff there, but without a clear license what can I do with the code? > > But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. > > Everybody keeps saying this as though it somehow makes it all OK. > > As I remarked in a response to Cameron Kaiser, > > >> [...], and after Dave said he would release the source when he was > >> good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he > >> doesn't have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), > > His *right*, feh. > > Just because he has a right to do something does not mean it is a good > thing for him to do. (My usual example is farting in a crowded > elevator.) Yet I've now seen two people writing as though "it's his > right to do this" implies some kind of "he should be not be criticized > for doing this". I don't get it. Do you really think it does? For me, he should not be criticized for making his source code unavailable. I've seen freeware that came as binary only, no source code. Shareware too (in fact, I've rarely seen shareware come with source code). By the same token, if he wants to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and die of lung cancer, more power to him (not that I want him to, just making a point). Dave's a grown-up, and if he makes a bad choice, well ... that's his decision (as long as it doesn't negatively impact others). One more story. A while back for a project I had in mind (which I didn't do for other reasons) I took a look at existing blogging software, the most popular of which (at the time) was Moveable Type. Written in Perl, but the license wasn't an open license at all. Couldn't copy it. Couldn't transfer it (licensing wise). Major restrictions on the number of authors and blogs a single instance could do. Couldn't redistribute. Couldn't really modify. But you got the source code! I rejected that codebase as soon as I finished reading the licensing. Didn't bitch to Mena or Ben Trott though. They wrote the code. They licensed it as they saw fit. I just deleted my copy and went on. -spc (Oh, by the way, I have this GREAT text based digital clock program, uses a large font so one can view it from across the room ... anyone interested?) [1] http://www.gladesoft.com/products/seminole/index.shtml [2] I'm told, by my friend, that due to the way embedded systems are typically constructed (from a software point of view) that the GPL licensed code practically never used if at all possible. Since his webserver (which could be compiled for standalone use) was meant to be used in embedded systems (and it was quite easy to embed into larger programs), he was willing to offer the code under a different license to those companies so interested. The other programmers that helped him in this (myself, one other, and a few people that provided a few patches for various real time operating systems) were okay with this. [3] With some help. I mainly helped with interpreting the HTTP spec [4] but did write a bit of code (MD5 hash, some date-manipulation routines, and making sure his code could understand HTTP/0.9 requests). [4] HTTP/1.1 - RFC-2616 Authentication for HTTP/1.1 - RFC-2617 [5] Not that I have a problem with him doing this---not only did he fund the development himself, but I did get paid for my work, along with the other developer that helped him. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 11:55:59 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:55:59 -0700 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:14:39 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > For serial numbers in general, it can be handy to track numbers for machine s > > which had very low production runs as a way of estimating how many machines > > were made - as this information isn't often known otherwise. > > This is exactly where the system falls apart - when a manufacturer skips a > block of numbers in a smaller run, it is not very obvious from looking at > a small sample distribution. Yes, but if we had a collective database where everyone registered their serial numbers, such things would be visible again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From marvin at rain.org Tue Dec 20 12:04:45 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:04:45 -0800 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <43A847BD.FDFEA6D5@rain.org> First, I haven't used or tried ImageDisk. Second, it matters not since I will almost always be on the side of supporting people who are *DOING* as opposed to *TALKING*. I have a lot of Polymorphic and LOBO Drives 8" and 5 1/4" floppy disks so I was watching the development of ImageDisk with great interest. He has enough experience with software development to know when a product/source code/etc. is ready for release but unless Dave changes his mind, it is moot now and that is too bad. BTW, I was most happy to see that Dave reconsidered his original request when cancelling the project and will allow copies to exist on websites using his format. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 12:03:37 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:03:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220175055.3B4647302A@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051220175055.3B4647302A@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200512201807.NAA07166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Almost all of it is up for anonymous ftp from >> ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca. > Some interesting stuff there, but without a clear license what can I > do with the code? Almost all of it is in the public domain, and by intent it all has clear statements, either that it's public domain or what its copyright license is; if you find something with neither, I've made a mistake, so please tell me so I can fix it. (If you don't tell me within the next six hours or so, you may have to wait a week or so for the fix; I'm likely to be mostly away from my mailbox until about the 26th.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 12:15:10 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:15:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512201807.NAA07166@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Dec 20, 2005 01:03:37 PM Message-ID: <20051220181511.50D597302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > >> Almost all of it is up for anonymous ftp from > >> ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca. > > Some interesting stuff there, but without a clear license what can I > > do with the code? > > Almost all of it is in the public domain, and by intent it all has > clear statements, either that it's public domain or what its copyright > license is; if you find something with neither, I've made a mistake, so > please tell me so I can fix it. (If you don't tell me within the next > six hours or so, you may have to wait a week or so for the fix; I'm > likely to be mostly away from my mailbox until about the 26th.) Of the four programs I downloaded, only one had a clear license stated. The three that didn't: hacks/bigclk.c (the one I mentioned as having 8-) hacks/cmpstream.c hacks/distmult.c -spc From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 20 12:40:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:40:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Yes, but if we had a collective database where everyone registered > their serial numbers, such things would be visible again. No, you will still miss lots of holes, simply because you just will not have a large enough sample. A database has helped with research like this (or for just plain fun, as mentioned before) - just the results should not be taken too seriously. There is a database of surviving DEC 36 bitters out there on the web. One problem is that often people with machines do not want it known, in some shape or form, and this throws ofdf the sample. I think that list has a few entries with deleted serials. I once did get a good sample for doing such a thing - they were radio control boxes for a 1930s bomber. I figure I had something like four or five percent of the entire production run, which is a very large sample. I found that there were big holes, some parts with nice even distributions, and even a repeat serial number. What I learned from this is that it is hard to learn anything from this. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 20 12:44:51 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:44:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There is a database of surviving DEC 36 bitters out there on the web. One > problem is that often people with machines do not want it known, in some > shape or form, and this throws ofdf the sample. I think that list has a > few entries with deleted serials. In order to steer away from the open source crap: For a while PDP-10s, mostly KS10s, were popping up like mushrooms. I have not heard of any lately. Anyone know of any in the past two years? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 12:47:27 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:47:27 -0700 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:40:45 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > I once did get a good sample for doing such a thing - they were radio > control boxes for a 1930s bomber. I figure I had something like four or > five percent of the entire production run, which is a very large sample. I > found that there were big holes, some parts with nice even distributions, > and even a repeat serial number. What I learned from this is that it is > hard to learn anything from this. But was it fun? :-) If its fun, then its worth it. I like the simple "nya nya! my serial number is lower!" taunt among collectors of the same mass produced items :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vrs at msn.com Tue Dec 20 12:49:39 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 10:49:39 -0800 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > Just because he has a right to do something does not mean it is a good > thing for him to do. (My usual example is farting in a crowded > elevator.) Yet I've now seen two people writing as though "it's his > right to do this" implies some kind of "he should be not be criticized > for doing this". I don't get it. Do you really think it does? Against my own better judgement, I have decided to reply to this. I believe your analogy is flawed, and hence by extension, your criticism. If I fart in an elevator, I am polluting a scarce public resource. Clearly that deserves criticism. Similarly, my right to swing my arms ends at your nose (if not at your "personal space"). However, Dave wasn't doing anything like that. First, he isn't obligated to do anything at all for us. And if he chooses to do nothing for us, it would be bizzare for us to think less of him for just minding his own business. So, he went out of his way for us, created a useful tool, and a useful dialog about the features of such tools. I think nearly everyone thought better of him for going out of his way for the community. Thinking less of him because he doesn't want to volunteer even more time and energy is just mistaken, in my view. It is true that not releasing source code limits the long term value of his contribution. (As he said, the current version wasn't meant to be a long term contribution. That was for some future version.) Still, a contribution is a wonderful thing. I don't get the argument that, by not releasing source, he has harmed us in any way (since the reference point is him doing nothing for us for free, not him doing everything). Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 20 13:05:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:05:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs Message-ID: <200512201905.LAA19678@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Jim Battle" ---snip--- > >Redundancy in DRAM, row and column, has been in use for 20 years at least. At >the ASIC level, largish SRAMs typically also have redundant rows and columns >(largish meaning more than a few kbits). > ---snip--- Hi I don't want to bust anyones bubble but many low end computers sold as desk tops have partially bad chips. The term used is "down graded". It is still standard practice in the industry. Many of you may have a down graded part in your machine and not even know it. Manufactures stop down grading when the yield is high enough that it is no longer economical to deal with the down graded parts. The extra handling cost money as well. It is simple economics. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 20 13:16:54 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:16:54 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512172152350052.34E3F89D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >Used to be that keytops were double-shot molded, with the lettering all but >indestructible. Is this a practice that's gone forever, or is there still >a vendor who makes keyboards the old way? Just depends on how much you want to spend! http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ or if you want a "J-Stick" on it, too... http://www.pckeyboard.com/onthestk.html They can still be had, but they're not cheap. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 20 13:33:27 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:33:27 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A8201E.7080006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43A81C68.1040509@pacbell.net> <43A8201E.7080006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200512201433.27797.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jules Richardson declared on Tuesday 20 December 2005 10:15: > Jim Battle wrote: > > Personally I'm disgusted by the purists who think they've achieved > > something here. You had nothing to lose. I did, and I've lost it. > > Ditto. ID was on track to be an almost perfect solution to a problem > that's been plaguing a lot of us for several years, and now it's no > more. I'm just going to go and fume off-list for a few days I think. > > Grrr. :-( Of course, a likely result of Dave giving up on his project, is that someone will get annoyed, and write their own version... hopefully without the same fallout next time. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 20 13:39:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:39:13 -0800 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512201139130351.42257AE5@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 2:16 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: >http://www.clickykeyboards.com/ > >They can still be had, but they're not cheap. Heck, I've got a few model M's and they still work just fine. I've even got a couple of rebrands that the clickykeyboards don't have--Wang. What I wanted to know is what NEW keyboard is well-made with double-shot keytops? Where does one put the scroll wheel on the "J-stick"? :) That little addition to the standard mouse has really cut down on a lot of pain for me--that, and learning to be ambidextrous with a mouse--most of the time, I use it with my left hand, even though I'm right-handed. Cheers, Chuck From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Dec 20 13:54:08 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:54:08 -0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <009301c6059f$2412f940$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> I feel I have to write in support of Dave. As one who doesn't have the expertise to write this sort of code (or any code of real purpose for that matter!), I am always glad when someone produces a useful piece of code, and out of a spirit of community, offers it for use by others. The code is Dave's property, physically and intellectualy. What he does with it is up to him - he could patent it and make us all pay, he could release it as it is, in a useable, compiled form, or if he is fantastically generous, he may let us see the source code. The best we can hope for is a documented piece of software that performs its task. We have no right to know how it performs that task, or whether it is a beautiful piece of code, or as horribly written as my code. Dave, thank you for trying to improve our hobby, and I'm sorry for the trouble you have had. Jim Beacon. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 20 13:58:00 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:58:00 -0500 Subject: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software In-Reply-To: <200512190129.UAA02593@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220143321.03a4e4d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > > [...] and in Dave's case, it's his freaking software. He can do with > > it whatever he likes. If he doesn't want to release the source, then > > people like Tony can take a chill pill. > >Absolutely. But, conversely, if we (FSVO "we") want to think less of >him for choosing that way, that's up to us. But why should you put a moral bent on a personal choice? IOW, you're saying it's OK to be a bigot. "I don't hate him because he's German, I hate him because he's not FSF." [[ I said German *solely* because I'm primarily German, and if I was going to "pick on" someone, I figured it should be myself. I could've said American Indian as well; that's the second largest contribution to my personal gene pool... ]] > > Just because it's non-commercial doesn't mean it should be open > > source. > >Not in general, but I think it does when the reason given for not >releasing the source is that it enables (as in "makes easier") the >creation of commercial competitors - and as that was one of the reasons >given upthread, I think it's not an entirely unfair thing to say. I do. It's his software, plain & simple. He has the right to do with it as he wishes, bar none, and that's that. Would it not be "unfair" to dislike you because you run BSD instead of Linux? Expecting everyone else to live to *your* standards is a bit of a stretch... is it not? Regards, Roger Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 14:31:17 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:31:17 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 12/20/05 11:45 AM, "der Mouse" wrote: >> Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? > > Almost all of it is up for anonymous ftp from > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca. You know, this thread is reminding me of highschool.... Heck, today, me and the programming teacher were fighting, and she screamed "SINCE YOU KNOW SO MUCH, uh... ADD TWO NUMBERS IN ASSEMBLER" So I put down MV AL,2 MV BL,2 ADD AL,BL And, you can guess, that's no where near perfectly valid, but in all her supreme knowledge, she said it was correct, proceded to shut up, and let me work on my project (Trying to get linux to boot on my MyPal A620 pda..) For some reason, that whole incident was very childish seeming to me. Just like this thread. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Dec 20 14:51:43 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <01C6057D.63229720@mse-d03> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:26:54 -0500 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled >...it is easy for the developer to get a bruised ego because they take any criticism >personally...> He didn't "take it personally," it _was_ personal; at least three messages mentioned the words "lost respect for you." That's the real point, it's pretty childish to insult someone like Dave, who's contributed a great deal, because he doesn't agree with your idea of when and how FREE software should be released. All that does is cause me and no doubt a few others to lose a little respect for the people doing it, not because of their opinions and choices but because of their character. Something they might think about; not only has the community lost something as a result, but so have they personally (although I doubt that they care). As for Dave, I respect him for the work he's done and his offer to share it with the rest of us. I also respect his choices, and he has my sympathy. It's ironic that this sort of thing, like the attitude that anyone using Windows instead of Linux is a "luzer" instead of a fellow computer enthusiast, is so prevalent in this community which is made up for the most part of very creative people; one would think we would be more open-minded. >There are pitfalls to going public with a project, if being in the spotlight >and everything associated with that is not your thing then think twice about >going public in the first place. And you think that's a good thing? Not that I have anything to contribute, but if I ever do I won't even think once after this, and just share it quietly with people who will appreciate it and whose criticism would actually be productive. mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 12:33:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:33:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 20, 5 00:24:16 am Message-ID: > I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. > Effective immediately, I have cancled the ImageDisk project. My offer to I assume you're not proposing to honour the agreement you made earlier. Namely that if you stop developing a program, you release the source code. I now know who not to trust! > make the source code available by request is hereby withdrawn. I have > removed the images section from my site. If you have copies of any of this > material, I would respectfully ask you to please delete them, or at least not > make my material available. I want this program to have never existed. This whole episode has taught me many things : You can't take criticism. This all started because several list members, including myself made comments like 'pity the source code isn't available'. For some reason you took major exception to this. Your agreements are not worth the bits they are written with (see above). There are now presumably a number of disks archived in Imagedisk format that cannot (legally) be read. Great!. This is no better than teledisk. It has convinced me even more that the only tools I will use to archive disks are open-source ones, because that's the only way I can be sure that the author won't throw a hissy fit for whatever reason and make the archives useless. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 12:35:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:35:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <200512191752210589.3E54BDBA@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 5 05:52:21 pm Message-ID: > Back in the days when DRAM was precious, Intel had some "8Kx1" DRAMs that > were really "half good" 16K parts. You used the "-x" digit to determine There were certainly 32K*1 DRAMs that were half-good 64K chips. IIRC at least one version of the 48K Spectrum used them, and there was a link on the board to select which half would be used (obviously all 8 chips had to be of the same type). I suspect the CoCo1 used them too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 12:40:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:40:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING In-Reply-To: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 19, 5 05:56:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/20/2005 at 12:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' reel-to-reel tape > >recorder, and found a schematic glued to the inside of the case. At one > >time this was quite common on consumer electronic devices I believe. > > Not at all uncommon on radios and TVs using vacuum tubes (valves). Very Actuallym this tape recorder uses (germanium) transistors. I'm still looking for the mains-powered valved version (EL3514). But yes, certainly a lot of valve radios, etc, had a schematic inside > useful. But then early PC's sometimes included schematics in their > end-user documentation. Yes, and most of them were very close to the schematics in the IBM TechRefs :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 14:19:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:19:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220091123.MYKZ9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 20, 5 05:04:53 am Message-ID: > Up until two days ago, I was under the impression that these efforts were > generally appreciated and of use to people. Now all of a sudden I am being > blasted with complaints from a few very vocal list members about my not > providing source code. I hate to say this publically, but your whole attitude smacks of 'everything I do is perfect, you're lucky to be able to see it, and don't you dare criticise it'. Sorry, I do not, and never have, worked that way. 'Never look a gift horse in the mouth' always struck me as being one of the more stupid of the proverbs, actually, I do not want to get tied into doing something that later causes me problems. And alas that happens far too often with closed software. > I immediately addressed this - I offered to make the code available on a per- > request basis until I am ready to make a public release, however much of It was not at all clear what the terms of that release were. It started off being an NDA, then you changed it. Having seen how you operate, I have to say I'd not accept any agreement from you unless it was in writing. You claimed repeatedly that you didn't care if your ideas ended up in other programs, but I really don't feel I could trust that. > what you did not include in the quotes, was statements about how wonderful > GPL is, why my code MUST be released under GPL to be useful to the sender I think I claimed it should be open-source. That DOES NOT IMPLY GPL! > of that message, and how all of my attempts to explain why I disagree with > this are "non-sequiter". No, the non-sequiturs were things like the fact that since you were maintaining the code, you couldn't also allow others to do so (by releasing the source). > > Before I go further, let me make one thing perfectly clear: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nothing I write will *EVER* be released under FSF's GPL - because I DON'T > AGREE with the GPL - this is my opinion and right - get over it. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was just using tyhe GPL as an example. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other open-source licenses. > For the record, NOBODY took me up on my "per request" offer for the > source code.I did make the mistake of using the term "NDA" as a simple > means of indicating that I would not want source code so requested to be > redistributed, and since then every correspondance from one individual has The problem is that an NDA goes rather further than that. IMHO If I'd agreed to an NDA, I could not (at least morally) create a similar program because I could npt prove that no line of your code had ended up in my program. You may not have intneded to prevent this, but I don't need any legal problems. Period. > mentioned "fear of legal action" if even an "Idea" from my program were to > leak into his own work, and oh by the way, GPL would remove this fear. My Since the GPL (and other free software licenses) do allow the production of derrivative works, then yes, it would remove that fear. > attempt to explain that this is not the purpose of my positioning and assurances > that this would not happen, and that he would not be required to sign anything I would feel morally bound by an agreement even if I'd not signed it. To turn it round, _you_ agreed to release the source code if you were no longer maintaining the program. Since you now claim to haev canned the project, I assume you are not maintaining it, but you have not released the source code. You are, of course, within your legal rights to do this, but how do I _know_ you wouldn't behave similarly with other agreements. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 14:25:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:25:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: <43A7649A.90401@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 20, 5 01:55:38 am Message-ID: > > Scott Stevens wrote: > > Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset > > tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion > > Laboratory for instance. > > Yep - I tend to try and leave those on if they're something interesting, even > if I'm cleaning the rest of the machine up as much as possible. Partly to aid I can think of one good reason to remove them, and that is if you suspect that the assets records at the company are not all that they should be. I am asusming, of course, that you did obtain the machine legally, but if you were later found to have a machine with a 'foo company' asset label, and if there were no records that you'd actually bought it from them, you could have a lot of explaining to do. > my own memory too, because I can never remember where I got half my stuff > from! :-) Why does it matter who previously used a machine? It's the same machine, isn't it? To me computers are interesting becuase of how they work, what they do, etc, not who used them. > > On a related note, there's also something nice about finding signed > documentation once owned by well-known staff at the company which produced I think I've told this story before, but anyway... Shortly after I got my P850, I met some people from the Philips research labs, and half-jokingly asked if they had any documentation. I was very pleased when, a few days later, a parcel arrived containing some user and technical manuals for related machines, including the P851. The P851 User manual had a name writeen in ballpoint on the cover. About 15 years later, a P851 and P854 were offered via the CCS. I lept at the chance and contacted the owner without delay. He was happy for me to take them on, so I went down and collected a P851, P854, floppy drives, spare boards, and yet more documentation. The point of mentioning this now? The chap I got them from was the person who'd written his name on the cover of that user manual :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 14:52:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:52:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <43A81493.6080104@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 20, 5 02:26:27 pm Message-ID: > > The ZX Spectrum actually has jumpers on the board to specify whether > you're using "top half bad" 32Kx1 or "bottom half bad", for the upper > 32k. Of course the ones that always went were the bloody awful 4116es. There was nothing wrong with the 4116. The problem was that that chip is known to fail if it loses the -5V bias supply (this is documented in the data sheets, which, IIRC, give a supply line sequencing order), and Sinclair (as usual) really cut corners with the -5V supply. It tended to fail (or at least fail to start up), and the DRAMs failed I must have well over 100 4116s in running machines here, and I think I've had to replace exactly one of them. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 20 15:10:01 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:10:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220175055.3B4647302A@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Dec 20, 5 12:50:55 pm" Message-ID: <200512202110.NAA12676@floodgap.com> > Over time, be became aware that multiple companies in China were > downloading his webserver and embedding the software into commerical > products. Since these companies did not negotiate an alternative license to > the GPL, they were then bound to the GPL license and my friend would have > been within his rights to buy a unit and demand the source code. His > chances of actually *getting* said source code were nil. The Chinese > companies don't care and it would have been prohibitively expensive for him > to sue. Since his intent was to make money off the codebase (and he spent a > few years working on the software [3]---following the HTTP spec [4] isn't > easy and there are some rather interesting corner cases). > > So what did he do? The next release was no longer under the GPL. You > want the code, you have to buy it [5]. This kind of thing is why I won't use the GPL. In my case, I only care about free as in beer, and if I'm not making a buck off of my creation, neither should you. GPL doesn't prohibit this, and so it's unsuitable for my purposes. On the other hand, it should also be pointed out that the Chinese crooks in this case probably wouldn't have cared what license it came over. Unethical people don't let a little thing like a license stand in their way. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 14:26:01 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:26:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220143321.03a4e4d8@mail.30below.com> References: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051220143321.03a4e4d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512202110.QAA08119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> [...] and in Dave's case, it's his freaking software. He can do >>> with it whatever he likes. >> Absolutely. But, conversely, if we (FSVO "we") want to think less >> of him for choosing that way, that's up to us. > But why should you put a moral bent on a personal choice? Because it's a choice which I believe does harm to the state of the art, making it a Bad Thing to do. > IOW, you're saying it's OK to be a bigot. If you count bias against people who do things which harm society as bigotry, then yes, I believe it's OK to be a bigot. (Whether this case is an example, that's a different question.) > "I don't hate him because he's German, I hate him because he's not > FSF." If you really believe that being non-FSF makes one strongly detrimental to society, I consider that a perfectly reasonable consequence. (I may disagree, of course, but that's a separate question.) Now, of course, if that hate gets translated into certain kinds of action, that may be a problem, but it's a separate problem. I don't hate Dave because-- well, actually, I don't hate Dave at all; I rather like Dave, even after this incident. I don't *think less of* Dave because he's white, or uses classic computers, or lives in Ontario; I think less of Dave because I think his software distribution policy choices contribute to holding back the state of the art. > It's his software, plain & simple. He has the right to do with it as > he wishes, bar none, and that's that. Here again, I see "it's his right to do that" being used as if it implied "it's not a bad thing for him to do that". As I explained in another message, I do not agree with that leap. > Would it not be "unfair" to dislike you because you run BSD instead > of Linux? Not especially. I'd disagree, of course, but I don't see anything unfair about it, any more than it's unfair to dislike me because I drink lots of milk, or drive a car, or shave my scalp, or play pool, assuming you feel similarly about everyone who drinks lots of milk, or drives a car, or etc. (BTW, of those four, I actually do only two; the others are hypothetical.) > Expecting everyone else to live to *your* standards is a bit of a > stretch... is it not? Yes, it would be. But I don't, not for any of the meanings of "expect" (though I'm somewhat unsure about the "consider reasonable or due" meaning). I just think less of those that don't. At least for a (relatively) few standards I consider important enough - basically, those from which I see harm to society proceeding. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 20 15:21:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:21:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software) In-Reply-To: <200512202110.QAA08119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Dec 20, 5 03:26:01 pm" Message-ID: <200512202121.NAA16840@floodgap.com> >>>> [...] and in Dave's case, it's his freaking software. He can do >>>> with it whatever he likes. >>> Absolutely. But, conversely, if we (FSVO "we") want to think less >>> of him for choosing that way, that's up to us. >> But why should you put a moral bent on a personal choice? > Because it's a choice which I believe does harm to the state of the > art, making it a Bad Thing to do. > >> IOW, you're saying it's OK to be a bigot. > > If you count bias against people who do things which harm society as > bigotry, then yes, I believe it's OK to be a bigot. (Whether this case > is an example, that's a different question.) You seem to think that process is worth more than result, i.e., because he released a working and useful product (including to ingrates like Tony Duell -- "I know whom not to trust" indeed) in a way alien to what you think constitutes being a good neighbour, it is therefore automatically a Bad Thing. This is the same kind of specious crap I get when people ask me why I won't use GPL (except in cases where I modify a project under the GPL, because then I'm stuck). As someone else pointed out in this case, it's, "I don't like the taste of this free beer." The application of the word 'polemic' is entirely appropriate. >> It's his software, plain & simple. He has the right to do with it as >> he wishes, bar none, and that's that. > > Here again, I see "it's his right to do that" being used as if it > implied "it's not a bad thing for him to do that". As I explained in > another message, I do not agree with that leap. But you *do* seem to concur with 'it's a bad thing for him to do that == it's *not* his right to do that' -- or you would have let him. So, as Roger said, why should you put a moral bent on a personal choice? Because that's exactly what you're doing. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If everyone is abnormal, then no one is. ----------------------------------- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 20 15:27:21 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:27:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <200512202127.NAA23895@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Christer O. Andersson" > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > ---snip--- >And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it >malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the >source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, >your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available >you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it >for you. Hi That is just plan silly. He has stated that he is openly providing all the information about the format. If you have the image and the information about the format, all that is lost is the means of transfer. There are many on this group that could, if needed, provide that for you ( or you could learn enough to do it for yourself ). As Dave has stated, the actual transfer program itself is nothing revolutionary. What is a lot of work is providing all the options and variations that are out there. Even with the source code, if you didn't understand how to talk to disk and DMA controllers, it is doubtful that you could fix a bug in the program. Of course, if you did understood these things, you could, knowing the image format, write your own transfer program. Lets get real. He has provided a useful format for image storage. The methods of transferring the information could be varied. Dwight From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 15:35:49 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:35:49 -0500 Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software) In-Reply-To: <200512202110.QAA08119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512181545.HAA16274@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051220143321.03a4e4d8@mail.30below.com> <200512202110.QAA08119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I borrow this place to ask my question: What license should I use when I release my software? I used SimH code in my software, and sample code downloaded from internet that written by NCR for its 53C90 chip in the 1980's. I assume it is hard to find somebody in NCR who is responsive for the code. Then what license should I use? I have GPL in my mind. I haven't check whether it is compatible with SimH license or not. If needed, I can get rid of the NCR code and replace it with the NetBSD 53C90 code, so I care less of this part. Please give me some insight if somebody is familiar with the license issue. vax, 9000 From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 15:37:08 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:37:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512202110.NAA12676@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Dec 20, 2005 01:10:01 PM Message-ID: <20051220213708.BD09B7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > Over time, be became aware that multiple companies in China were > > downloading his webserver and embedding the software into commerical > > products. Since these companies did not negotiate an alternative license to > > the GPL, they were then bound to the GPL license and my friend would have > > been within his rights to buy a unit and demand the source code. His > > chances of actually *getting* said source code were nil. The Chinese > > companies don't care and it would have been prohibitively expensive for him > > to sue. Since his intent was to make money off the codebase (and he spent a > > few years working on the software [3]---following the HTTP spec [4] isn't > > easy and there are some rather interesting corner cases). > > > > So what did he do? The next release was no longer under the GPL. You > > want the code, you have to buy it [5]. > > This kind of thing is why I won't use the GPL. In my case, I only care about > free as in beer, and if I'm not making a buck off of my creation, neither > should you. GPL doesn't prohibit this, and so it's unsuitable for my purposes. He felt he was safe with the GPL, in this case, since most embedded systems link everything---the operating system, device drivers and applications, into one large binary program, and as such, if an embedded company used his GPLed version of the code, it would taint the rest of the code and customers of the company could demand the source code to everything. That's why he was willing to license it under a non-GPL license. I'm unaware of any other open source but non-commercial type license, but you have to remember---the GPL was written not only by Stallman, but by a lawyer that specializes in intellectual property [1], so it's strong enough to stand up in court [2]. > On the other hand, it should also be pointed out that the Chinese crooks in > this case probably wouldn't have cared what license it came over. Unethical > people don't let a little thing like a license stand in their way. That is true. -spc (I've released stuff under the GPL, and if you can make money with my code ... more power to you ... I certainly haven't ... ) [1] My friend spent about $5k getting a custom written license which stands a chance of holding up on court. [2] If the GPL as a license fails, then the case falls to a copyright infringement---a rather clever legal hack if I do say so myself. [3] (not included here) [4] (not included here) [5] (not included here) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 20 15:34:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:34:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: Archiving Software) In-Reply-To: <200512202121.NAA16840@floodgap.com> References: <200512202121.NAA16840@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200512202138.QAA08274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Here again, I see "it's his right to do that" being used as if it >> implied "it's not a bad thing for him to do that". As I explained >> in another message, I do not agree with that leap. > But you *do* seem to concur with 'it's a bad thing for him to do that > == it's *not* his right to do that' Perhaps it seems that way to you, but it is an erroneous impression. > -- or you would have let him. Oh, I let him. I'm in no position to prevent him, after all. But you seem to think that just because I censured him for it, that I think he doesn't have a right to do it (because you leapt from the one to the other). This too is wrong. I fully agree that he was/is within his rights to do as he did. That doesn't mean that I think what he did was good, or even was not deserving censure. > So, as Roger said, why should you put a moral bent on a personal > choice? Because that's exactly what you're doing. See my reply to Roger. Most briefly, because I believe such choices hold back the state of the art, and thus harm society as a whole - at which point it becomes a moral issue. To me. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 20 15:43:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:43:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 20, 2005 04:35:49 PM Message-ID: <200512202143.jBKLhahI019357@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I borrow this place to ask my question: What license should I use when > I release my software? > > I used SimH code in my software, and sample code downloaded from > internet that written by NCR for its 53C90 chip in the 1980's. I > assume it is hard to find somebody in NCR who is responsive for the > code. Then what license should I use? I have GPL in my mind. I haven't > check whether it is compatible with SimH license or not. If needed, I > can get rid of the NCR code and replace it with the NetBSD 53C90 code, > so I care less of this part. Please give me some insight if somebody > is familiar with the license issue. > > vax, 9000 > I'm guessing you'll have to talk to Bob about this, if you're using SIMH code. Personally I think GPL is a bad thing, and would be inclined to take a close look at the BSD license myself. Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 20 15:45:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:45:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <200512202145.NAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Christer O. Andersson" > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:42:13AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are those >> who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though it were >> all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be happy with >> someone who did that. > >You don't get it - that's exactly what GPL protects against. Hi Again Maybe that isn't important to him. He might have other reasons to not use GPL. I've never used it and don't ever expect to. I see no reason that any of the code that I've published can't be used by anyone for whatever reason they like. I know that some bits and pieces have made it into commercial software. That is OK with me. They can copy the entire thing if they like. Dave has his reasons for how he is doing this. The fact that he doesn't have the software source available does little to diminish the work that he has done. He is in the process of developing his code and has stated that he would not like to release it right now. I'd feel the same myself, even if I later planned release it to public domain. As for project help during developement, I've tried it twice myself. In both cases, the help that was promised never completed. I'm not mad about it but I realize that I could have completed it faster on my own. I may try it again in the future but like a lot of things. Offers of help are just that, offers. I have not completed some help projects for others myself. I know why but that doesn't change the facts. IMHO Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 15:57:37 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:57:37 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:25:14 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Why does it matter who previously used a machine? It's the same machine, > isn't it? To me computers are interesting becuase of how they work, what > they do, etc, not who used them. Tsk tsk tsk. Don't you watch Antiques Roadshow on PBS? ;-). Its all about the provenance of a machine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From m_thompson at ids.net Tue Dec 20 16:06:25 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:06:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051220170117.03a40d10@155.212.1.107> Paul Allen's 2065B and 1090 are the newest additions to the PDP-10 serial number list. http://www.pdpplanet.org/ At 01:44 PM 12/20/2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > There is a database of surviving DEC 36 bitters out there on the web. One > > problem is that often people with machines do not want it known, in some > > shape or form, and this throws ofdf the sample. I think that list has a > > few entries with deleted serials. > >In order to steer away from the open source crap: > >For a while PDP-10s, mostly KS10s, were popping up like mushrooms. I have >not heard of any lately. Anyone know of any in the past two years? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From news at computercollector.com Tue Dec 20 16:14:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:14:41 -0500 Subject: Really want to critique? Do it here! Message-ID: <006801c605b2$c6f2b430$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Since all the critics, naysayers, and pundits are out in force today, I thought I'd make some constructive use from it. (Imagine that!) The year 2006 is winding down, and early January is the second birthday of Computer Collector Newsletter. Sometime in later January will be our 100th issue, a fact which realy blows my mind. I, Mike Nadeau, Sellam Ismail, Erik Klein, Christine Finn, and Bill Logidice take great pride in this volunteer endeavor. We started in early January 2004 with about 345(-ish) members. Now there are 870. So getting back to the point: what can we do to make it better? What do you love, what are you ambivalent about, what sucks in our newsletter? What would you add or do less of or otherwise change if you were in charge? By all means, bring it on. Bring it on very bluntly if you want. We'd prefer that you are polite, but if you sincerely think we all stink, then we'd rather hear the truth than some buttered-up politically correct version. No matter what people say, we promise not to "take our ball and go home," although we strongly support Dave's work and his right to do whatever he chooses with it. :) Got something to say? Say it to us. We wanna hear it, really. But jeesh, give the ImageDisk thing a rest. The guy tried to be nice and do something good for our community and instead a few self-important imbeciles had to go and ruin it. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 16:11:00 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:11:00 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512202127.NAA23895@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512202127.NAA23895@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051220221100.GQ7299@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 01:27:21PM -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: > >From: "Christer O. Andersson" > > > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > ---snip--- > >And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > >malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the > >source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some reason, > >your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source is available > >you can either fix it yourself or arrange with somebody to fix it > >for you. > > Hi > That is just plan silly. He has stated that he is openly > providing all the information about the format. If you have > the image and the information about the format, all that is lost > is the means of transfer. There are many on this group that Hi! Yes, unless the bug violates the documented format. Or the documentation is wrong. In either case you would benefit from having access to the source code. > could, if needed, provide that for you ( or you could learn > enough to do it for yourself ). As Dave has stated, the > actual transfer program itself is nothing revolutionary. What is > a lot of work is providing all the options and variations > that are out there. Bug prone? > Even with the source code, if you didn't understand how > to talk to disk and DMA controllers, it is > doubtful that you could fix a bug in the program. Of course, > if you did understood these things, you could, knowing the > image format, write your own transfer program. DMA controllers are generally documented and souce code is often available. With the source code to ImageDisk it would definately be easier to fix something then rewriting it all from scratch. > Lets get real. He has provided a useful format for image > storage. The methods of transferring the information > could be varied. > Dwight Fine. It would be even better with the source code available. I probably just don't understand the problem with releasing the source code under whatever license Dave prefer. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 20 16:21:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:21:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <200512202221.OAA25457@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" ---snip--- > >Everybody keeps saying this as though it somehow makes it all OK. > ---snip--- Hi That is the point. It is OK for him to do what ever he pleases with his code. IMHO Dwight From christer at a-son.net Tue Dec 20 16:26:03 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:26:03 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512202145.NAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512202145.NAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051220222603.GR7299@bass.mejeriet.home> On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 01:45:13PM -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: > >From: "Christer O. Andersson" > > > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 11:42:13AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> care about having source. The only people it would seem to affect are those > >> who wanted to take Dave's code, modify it, and release it as though it were > >> all their own work - and I doubt anyone on this list would be happy with > >> someone who did that. > > > >You don't get it - that's exactly what GPL protects against. > > Hi Again > Maybe that isn't important to him. He might have other > reasons to not use GPL. I've never used it and don't ever expect > to. I see no reason that any of the code that I've published > can't be used by anyone for whatever reason they like. I > know that some bits and pieces have made it into commercial > software. That is OK with me. They can copy the entire thing > if they like. Hi! Yes, that is of course a personal matter. I am not sure of my own preference, I think it depends on what kind of software it would be. The point I was trying to make was that you can actually release your source without having it snatched away. But that was not Dave's fear, it was expressed by Jules Richardson. I don't know whether Dave share that fear or not. > Dave has his reasons for how he is doing this. The fact that > he doesn't have the software source available does little to > diminish the work that he has done. He is in the process of No, it can be a great thing still, but it is more trustworthy if you can read the source code, and as I have mentioned enough already, others can pick it up if the original author for one reason or another decides to drop the project. I would personally never trust a tool that can disappear anytime due to the authors wish. It actually happened here, even if Dave realized it was a bit thick and changed his mind to let people continue to use the tool. > developing his code and has stated that he would not like > to release it right now. I'd feel the same myself, even if > I later planned release it to public domain. > As for project help during developement, I've tried it > twice myself. In both cases, the help that was promised > never completed. I'm not mad about it but I realize that > I could have completed it faster on my own. I may try > it again in the future but like a lot of things. Offers > of help are just that, offers. I have not completed some help > projects for others myself. I know why but that doesn't > change the facts. YMMV of course. If you choose not to publish your code, you will definately not get any help. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 16:32:51 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:32:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 20, 2005 04:35:49 PM Message-ID: <20051220223252.824FE7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great 9000 VAX once stated: > > I borrow this place to ask my question: What license should I use when > I release my software? > > I used SimH code in my software, and sample code downloaded from > internet that written by NCR for its 53C90 chip in the 1980's. I > assume it is hard to find somebody in NCR who is responsive for the > code. Then what license should I use? I have GPL in my mind. I haven't > check whether it is compatible with SimH license or not. If needed, I > can get rid of the NCR code and replace it with the NetBSD 53C90 code, > so I care less of this part. Please give me some insight if somebody > is familiar with the license issue. Here's the license for SimH: Original code published in 1993-2005, written by Robert M Supnik Copyright (c) 1993-2005, Robert M Supnik Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions: The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL ROBERT M SUPNIK BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE. Except as contained in this notice, the name of Robert M Supnik shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization from Robert M Supnik. Here's the one for NetBSD: /*- * Copyright (c) 2005 The NetBSD Foundation, Inc. * All rights reserved. * * This code is derived from software contributed to The NetBSD Foundation * by * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software * must display the following acknowledgement: * This product includes software developed by the NetBSD * Foundation, Inc. and its contributors. * 4. Neither the name of The NetBSD Foundation nor the names of its * contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived * from this software without specific prior written permission. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE NETBSD FOUNDATION, INC. AND CONTRIBUTORS * ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED * TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR * PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE FOUNDATION OR CONTRIBUTORS * BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR * CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF * SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS * INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN * CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) * ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE * POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. */ (but note that some portions of NetBSD are covered by the GPL---but I think the kernel itself is the NetBSD license) So you're free to use both codebases, but the "Advertising clause" in the NetBSD license precludes it from being GPLed: Original BSD license (Note: on the preceding link, the original BSD license is listed in the "UCB/LBL" section.) This is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license with a serious flaw: the ``obnoxious BSD advertising clause''. The flaw is not fatal; that is, it does not render the software non-free. But it does cause practical problems, including incompatibility with the GNU GPL. We urge you not to use the original BSD license for software you write. If you want to use a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, it is much better to use the modified BSD license or the X11 license. However, there is no reason not to use programs that have been released under the original BSD license. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses The link above does provide a list of licenses that one can release code under, but do keep in mind that it's biased towards the GPL 8-) Now, that said, the SimH code doesn't appear to be incompatible with the GPL, and with the uncertain status of the NCR code, I'm not sure if you can go with the GPL. Using the NetBSD drivers means you can't use the GPL. -spc (And Linux doesn't seem to have a NCR 53C90 driver ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 20 16:36:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:36:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs In-Reply-To: <200512201905.LAA19678@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512201905.LAA19678@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051220143531.H36828@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi > I don't want to bust anyones bubble but many low end computers > sold as desk tops have partially bad chips. The term used > is "down graded". It is still standard practice in the industry. > Many of you may have a down graded part in your machine and > not even know it. How about the 32K RAMs in the RS Coco From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 20 16:50:26 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:50:26 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> der Mouse wrote: >Just because he has a right to do something does not mean it is a good >thing for him to do. (My usual example is farting in a crowded >elevator.) Yet I've now seen two people writing as though "it's his >right to do this" implies some kind of "he should be not be criticized >for doing this". I don't get it. Do you really think it does? > > I never used his program, since it was only available as Windows only. I needed to wait for either a Linux version, or source code so I could try to make a Linux Version. I've been bitten several times by the "I promise to release the source" by binary authors promises in the past, so I have learned to wait until the promised release actually occurs (which is very rare for binary authors). Now I'm glad I didn't try to use the Windows version. If I did the images I made would now be worthless because they are in yet another abandoned undocumented format, and I would have wasted my time creating them. There enough undocumented archive formats out there already, including 22disk, teledisk, etc., so the loss of yet another undocumented one isn't that upsetting to me. Good thing it came sooner than later, so that not too much data was locked up in it. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 16:41:18 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:41:18 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03, RT-11 v3 & Y2K Message-ID: OK, while playing with my 11/03, I noticed that it seems to have a Y2K issue in the date? I'm instructed in the docs to enter the date with a two digit year. So... does this mean that the data command is just stupid or that the whole system has a Y2K issue? I never paid attention to any Y2K discussions on PDP-11s since I haven't used one since 1981 prior to this :-). Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 16:53:33 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:53:33 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> Message-ID: On 12/20/05 5:50 PM, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > Now I'm glad I didn't try to use the Windows version. If I did the images > I made would now be worthless because they are in yet another > abandoned undocumented format, and I would have wasted my time > creating them. .... Didn't you read? The format is said to be HEAVILY documented. His program was one way to access the format, the format itself was the true value in his work! And that format was what he readily gave away for free! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 20 17:09:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:09:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Dec 20, 5 05:53:33 pm Message-ID: > > The format is said to be HEAVILY documented. > > His program was one way to access the format, the format itself was the true > value in his work! > > And that format was what he readily gave away for free! Without seeing the source code to Imagedisk, how do I know that it actually follows that spec. I will assume Dave is not so malicious as to XOR the sector data with pseudorandom bit stream or anything stupid [1] but how do I know that there isn't a bug in the progrma that causes it to fail if there are more than 27 sectors/track or something? [1] On the other hand, if I have a floppy from some machine that I don't own, and which I have no other way of reading, how would I verify this? -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 20 17:27:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:27:22 -0500 Subject: morphed to TTL part number history, was: IBM PLAYING In-Reply-To: References: <200512191756550217.3E58EA87@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051220182722.764886e7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:40:31 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > On 12/20/2005 at 12:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > > >I recently bought a second-hand Philips 'upright' > > >reel-to-reel tape recorder, and found a schematic glued to > > >the inside of the case. At one time this was quite common on > > >consumer electronic devices I believe. > > > > Not at all uncommon on radios and TVs using vacuum tubes > > (valves). Very > > Actuallym this tape recorder uses (germanium) transistors. I'm > still looking for the mains-powered valved version (EL3514). > But yes, certainly a lot of valve radios, etc, had a schematic > inside > *offtopic* I also like collecting old tapes. I have a 'Christmas 1953' tape from some unknown Indiana family. Dad had gotten a new tape recorder and the microphone got passed around to the whole family. Dad was obviously an A.V. nerd. Some of the cheapest, most commmon radios had a schematic inside. My Zenith Royal 500 does, and the transistors are even socketed. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 20 17:40:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:40:46 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <20051220135114.GB22529@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <20051220184046.5b363af4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 14:51:14 +0100 "Christer O. Andersson" wrote: > On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > Where's your code, Mr. Mouse? And the rest of whoever's > > having an > > issue with this? What are YOU doing for the community? > > They could help with ImageDisk if the source was available. > > > > > Dave Dunfield is producing working tools, *free of charge*. > > He's > > taking suggestions for features and fixes, he's made his image > > format freely available. But it's his, to do with and to > > distribute as he pleases. > > > > And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without the > source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some > reason, your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the source > is available you can either fix it yourself or arrange with > somebody to fix it for you. The file format for the saved images WAS OPENLY AVAILABLE. What I am hearing from some parties is a bunch of political posturing about 'closed source being bad' and the need to ostracize anybody who wants to distribute binary-only software. There was as much, or more, information to build on as has been available for MANY very successful Open Source projects. Why did everybody have to attack THIS program? Why didn't they take the file format and carry forward with it using THEIR programming skills? There's a lot of mud getting thrown around here and I for one am really disappointed in how this 'community' can turn like jackals on someone who had quite good intentions, no identifiable ulterior motives, but slightly different values than some members. I was very happy with what Mr. Dunfield was giving us; the more he reads this thread, the more I can see him firming up on refusing to have anything to do with the project anymore. It has turned into a slashdot rant and 'open source' preaching session. It's almost time to put this subject line in the killfile. > > -- > Christer O. Andersson > Odensbacken From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 20 17:43:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:43:20 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> Message-ID: <43A89718.4080408@mdrconsult.com> Well, it looks like the Open Source NAZIS around here won't rest until Dave Dunfield is painted as some kind of HITLER. And that's all I have to say about it. Doc From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 20 17:48:09 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:48:09 -0500 Subject: Farting in elevators (was: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220155236.04a61ac8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > > But it's his, to do with and to distribute as he pleases. > >Everybody keeps saying this as though it somehow makes it all OK. It is. >As I remarked in a response to Cameron Kaiser, > > >> [...], and after Dave said he would release the source when he was > >> good and ready to (his right, I might add, and even though he > >> doesn't have to justify why he wants it that way, he did), > > His *right*, feh. > >Just because he has a right to do something does not mean it is a good >thing for him to do. (My usual example is farting in a crowded >elevator.) However, what if said 'farter' had a heart condition that was detrimental to one's health (including the possibility of death) if he/she *did not fart* to relieve the pressure? Yes, this exists, yes, *I've Had It*, and yes, despite the fact that I was exceptionally apologetic, no-one seemed to believe my "excuse" of "doctor's orders." And - Dave's software and his personal choice to do with as he pleases has absolutely nothing to do with the release of methane in tight spaces. > > The SOB who does the work gets to choose what he does with it. > >Certainly. And everyone else gets to think more or less of him for it. >As far as I can recall, the only thing I said that was critical of Dave >was that his distribution policy took him down a few notches in my >eyes. (Well, before he got mad about it, at least; since then I have >criticized the way he reacted too.) I see the argument that it's OK to think less of a person due to his personal preference of software release no less ridiculous than to think less of a person due to their personal preference of religion. 'Nuff Said. Regards, Roger Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 20 18:04:18 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:04:18 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220184046.5b363af4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 20/12/05 23:40, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > It has turned into a slashdot rant and 'open source' preaching > session. It's almost time to put this subject line in the > killfile. Bollocks to that, I'm out of here until the dust settles. I managed to avoid the original threads but the recent spat disgusts me. This hobby is supposed to be fun, hey, anyone remember the fun word? Happy fuckin' christmas. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Dec 20 18:10:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:10:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Really want to critique? Do it here! In-Reply-To: <006801c605b2$c6f2b430$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: > So getting back to the point: what can we do to make it better? How about this... Hustler used to have a page for "Asshole of the Month". With all of the bickering on the list today, I can come up with some candidates. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Dec 20 19:11:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:11:10 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: References: <43A7649A.90401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051220191110.56afacb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:25 PM 12/20/05 +0000, you wrote: >> >> Scott Stevens wrote: >> > Does others here also value some of their equipment for the asset >> > tags on it? I have gear from places like the Jet Propulsion >> > Laboratory for instance. >> >> Yep - I tend to try and leave those on if they're something interesting, even >> if I'm cleaning the rest of the machine up as much as possible. Partly to aid > >I can think of one good reason to remove them, and that is if you suspect >that the assets records at the company are not all that they should be. I >am asusming, of course, that you did obtain the machine legally, but if >you were later found to have a machine with a 'foo company' asset label, >and if there were no records that you'd actually bought it from them, >you could have a lot of explaining to do. Oh, oh! I'm in trouble! MOST of my stuff has company stickers on it! Last week I was using a HP 9816 and I looked at it and the keyboard had a NASA property sticker, the disk drive had a Martin Marietta sticker and the CPU had a Harris sticker! Most companies have a policy that the property stickers are to be removed by the surplus department, but they leave it for the buyers to do and they leave it to theirs buyers, etc etc so most of the stuff hits the streets with the property stickers intact. > >> my own memory too, because I can never remember where I got half my stuff >> from! :-) > >Why does it matter who previously used a machine? It's the same machine, >isn't it? To me computers are interesting becuase of how they work, what >they do, etc, not who used them. Well it can be interesting to know the history of your machines but I agree that it's USUALLY secondary to their condition. OTOH a friend of mine has a couple of FLOWN computers from the Apollo spacecraft. In cases like that history is everything. Joe From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 20 18:12:46 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:12:46 -0500 Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: In-Reply-To: <20051220223252.824FE7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20051220223252.824FE7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On 12/20/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > ... Thank you for your analysis. > Now, that said, the SimH code doesn't appear to be incompatible with the > GPL, and with the uncertain status of the NCR code, I'm not sure if you can > go with the GPL. Using the NetBSD drivers means you can't use the GPL. > > -spc (And Linux doesn't seem to have a NCR 53C90 driver ... ) It has one. It is different from the NetBSD driver, as far as I know. vax, 9000 > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Dec 20 18:15:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 16:15:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Partially-bad chips; was: repairing early HP calcs Message-ID: <200512210015.QAA28801@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Dwight Elvey wrote: >> Hi >> I don't want to bust anyones bubble but many low end computers >> sold as desk tops have partially bad chips. The term used >> is "down graded". It is still standard practice in the industry. >> Many of you may have a down graded part in your machine and >> not even know it. > >How about the 32K RAMs in the RS Coco > > Yes Fred, that includes your Coco ;0 I'd really meant current machines but as Fred notes, it has been going on for a number of years and it is going on today. Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 20 18:24:09 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:24:09 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <005801c60571$6d43c8c0$2fcfbd41@game> <43A81842.6080409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <010901c605c4$e58b5340$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:42 AM Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled > Teo Zenios wrote: > > This thread is like a soap opera. > > > > If you offer to program a utility for the "comunity" you should expect a > > decent amount of email in reply that runs from praise to ridicule. > > Yep, but I'd not expect the outright *public* hostility that's come from some > corners over this; you're right in that private opinions - both good and bad - > are to be expected. Public comments along the lines of "I wish app abc did > xyz" don't seem too unreasonable either. > > I'm hardly surprised though at Dave being upset over the "it doesn't do xyz > therefore the whole thing is a waste of time and total shit" attitude which > seems to come across from some. > > I just hope that Dave realises that there are many of us who appreciate all > his hard work and the abilities of ImageDisk in its current form, regardless > of what future direction it might take. Just because a small minority don't > consider it good enough for their purposes does not mean that there aren't far > more of out there who are making good use of his tools. > > > I am not criticising anybody for attempting to go it alone, but it is easy > > for the developer to get a bruised ego because they take any criticism > > personally while a team of developers (with a smaller platform specific > > project) tend to ignore the chatter and turn out a project they are happy > > with. > > I suspect it's more the way that the criticism was directed that's the issue, > rather than the fact that it happened at all. If Dave's been publishing > software for years and running his own company around this, it's not > unreasonable to think that he's had to handle negative opinions in the past > before as well as good ones. > > cheers > > Jules Well lets be honest here, people do not do anything for "free". Some people like the attention, some people use a free service to get their name out there to built contacts or interest in other things, some people just have the need to contribute period because it makes them feel good inside. Once you step up to the plate you will have people cheering you on, a few will boo, and an even smaller minority will do anything to sabotage you so that you fail for no other reason then they are just evil. Why get peoples hopes up releasing anything and then pull the rug out from under them because of a few rotten apples? If people take you at your word that eventually the program source code will be released and they start actually dumping disk images with it you end up wasting their time. I agree people should be able to do whatever they want with their code up until the point they get others involved in either helping out with the code or depending on the semi finished product. Once you start making promises you do not keep expect some people to voice their disapproval, that is the price you pay for attempting anything in public and having it not work out. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Dec 20 18:40:34 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:40:34 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A8A482.6020808@brutman.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 20/12/05 23:40, "Scott Stevens" wrote: > > >>It has turned into a slashdot rant and 'open source' preaching >>session. It's almost time to put this subject line in the >>killfile. > > > Bollocks to that, I'm out of here until the dust settles. I managed to avoid > the original threads but the recent spat disgusts me. This hobby is supposed > to be fun, hey, anyone remember the fun word? > > Happy fuckin' christmas. > Can't we all just get along !?! Think of the children! I'm almost laughing at how this thread has taken on a life of it's own. I thought there were some elitists here, but man, this is out of the stratosphere! Peace .. Mike From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Dec 20 18:41:44 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:41:44 -0600 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:11:10 . <3.0.6.16.20051220191110.56afacb2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20051221004305.KTXQ17919.ibm66aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <3.0.6.16.20051220191110.56afacb2 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > Well it can be interesting to know the history of your machines but I >agree that it's USUALLY secondary to their condition. OTOH a friend of mine >has a couple of FLOWN computers from the Apollo spacecraft. In cases like >that history is everything. And what did you say his address was again? :-) :-) :-) <--- Note the liberal use of smileys Brian L. Stuart From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 20 18:44:17 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:44:17 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> <43A89718.4080408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <012b01c605c7$ac6f3d80$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled > > Well, it looks like the Open Source NAZIS around here won't rest > until Dave Dunfield is painted as some kind of HITLER. > > And that's all I have to say about it. > > > Doc I always thought that if there really is demand for a utility then atleast a token amount of money should be charged for that utility. You will find that people who claim to need changes to the utility but are unwilling to pay a few bucks for a new revision should just be ignored, they remind me of friends who keep taking up your personal time fixing their computers as long as you do it for free but once a token amount is asked for the time involved (even just a free lunch) these same people get pissy and refuse. It is funny how some people will spend vast amounts of money for computer hardware but very little if any for the software that makes the machine usable. You do not owe the world the source code for your hard work period. If people want to use some of your code they should pay for it or write their own. Sales should be a yardstick to measure if continuing the development of the utility is worth the effort. Sooner or later the people who needed the utility will already have it, at that point you can quit developing and destroy the source code or release it in any manner you like. Why do I get the feeling that people who push really hard for open sourcing just want to use your knowledge and time for free in their projects? From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Dec 20 18:43:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:43:11 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512202127.NAA23895@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512202127.NAA23895@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <20051220194311.05e3514b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:27:21 -0800 (PST) "Dwight Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Christer O. Andersson" > > > >On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 07:10:36AM -0600, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > ---snip--- > >And that is a problem. If you rely on his tools, and find it > >malfunctions in some way, you cannot fix the problem without > >the source. If Dave is not supporting his tool anymore for some > >reason, your stuck. Your saved disk might be lost. If the > >source is available you can either fix it yourself or arrange > >with somebody to fix it for you. > > Hi > That is just plan silly. He has stated that he is openly > providing all the information about the format. If you have > the image and the information about the format, all that is lost > is the means of transfer. There are many on this group that > could, if needed, provide that for you ( or you could learn > enough to do it for yourself ). As Dave has stated, the > actual transfer program itself is nothing revolutionary. What is > a lot of work is providing all the options and variations > that are out there. > Even with the source code, if you didn't understand how > to talk to disk and DMA controllers, it is > doubtful that you could fix a bug in the program. Of course, > if you did understood these things, you could, knowing the > image format, write your own transfer program. > Lets get real. He has provided a useful format for image > storage. The methods of transferring the information > could be varied. > Dwight > The grandparent was, unfortunately, just trotting out some of the standard 'open source' boilerplate. Some here are treating this like Dave was trying to produce another Microsoft Word. And their ignorance is disappointing. > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Dec 20 19:03:55 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:03:55 -0500 Subject: Godwin's Law.... (was: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <012b01c605c7$ac6f3d80$2fcfbd41@game> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> <43A89718.4080408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220200048.04ded080@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Doc Shipley" > > > > > Well, it looks like the Open Source NAZIS around here won't rest > > until Dave Dunfield is painted as some kind of HITLER. > > > > And that's all I have to say about it. > > Doc > >I always thought...... But unforch, you didn't this time. :-) <--- Note Smiley! Doc's post was a thinly-veiled attempt at trying to look like he's not intentionally invoking Godwin's Law. More than you'd *ever* want to know about Godwin's Law is here: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=158290 Read it and be amazed. ;-) <--- Note Winkey! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 20 19:17:09 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:17:09 -0600 Subject: Godwin's Law.... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220200048.04ded080@mail.30below.com> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A802CC.7000805@mdrconsult.com> <200512201657.LAA06567@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A88AB2.60300@srv.net> <43A89718.4080408@mdrconsult.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20051220200048.04ded080@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A8AD15.80601@mdrconsult.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Doc Shipley" >> >> > >> > Well, it looks like the Open Source NAZIS around here won't rest >> > until Dave Dunfield is painted as some kind of HITLER. >> > >> > And that's all I have to say about it. >> > Doc >> >> I always thought...... > > > But unforch, you didn't this time. :-) <--- Note Smiley! > > Doc's post was a thinly-veiled attempt at trying to look like he's not > intentionally invoking Godwin's Law. Nah, it was a thinly-veiled poke at the whole atmosphere in here. I figured everybody would get the reference. I can play trollee just as readily as I play troll, but I can't remember ever starting and then deleting as many heated replies *and* as many reasonable rebuttals as I have in this thread. In the end, when all the smoke and noise settles, I expect that only one person's mind will have changed. That'd be Dave, and his intent to develop and eventually to release the code to ImageDisk. Even more than being an indictment of the whole Stallmanista religion (as opposed to a constructive OSS mindset), that's just tragic. Doc From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Dec 20 19:24:57 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:24:57 -0800 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43A8AEE9.4060102@deltasoft.com> > I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. Dave, sorry to see this come to pass. To the "others", thanks a lot you bunch of miserable asshats. Any other good projects you wanna fuck up while you're on a roll? What is it about you guys that makes you feel you can denigrate someone for the decisions they make about their own property? All you people do is stand around and bitch like a bunch of old women. If you don't like how someone is handling their own software, keep yer damn yap shut and build a better version! If you can't, keep yer damn yap shut anyway! At least now I know how to go chumming for assholes around here. I'll just write a nice utility that makes you look dumb as a sack of hammers. At this rate, a nice "Hello World" program should be sufficient. To crib from the SCD, you people couldn't collectively catch a clue if you stripped naked, covered yourselves with clue-musk and ran through a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 20 20:23:21 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:23:21 -0700 Subject: other Utah collectors? Message-ID: Hey, any other Utah collectors on this list? And speaking of geography, has the idea of creating a frappr map of cctalk subscribers come up before? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 20:26:51 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:26:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 20, 2005 11:09:15 PM Message-ID: <20051221022652.565DE7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > The format is said to be HEAVILY documented. > > > > His program was one way to access the format, the format itself was the true > > value in his work! > > > > And that format was what he readily gave away for free! > > Without seeing the source code to Imagedisk, how do I know that it > actually follows that spec. I will assume Dave is not so malicious as to > XOR the sector data with pseudorandom bit stream or anything stupid [1] > but how do I know that there isn't a bug in the progrma that causes it to > fail if there are more than 27 sectors/track or something? Then you must be a better programmer than I, to be able to tell if a program has such a weird bug just by visual inspection. Can I hire you do debug some PHP code? We have tons of it ... Now, did you *bother* to read the spec? Did you bother to write a program that will read .IMD files? I did. Perhaps an hour or two (didn't keep track of time) and I now have a program that will read .IMD files---at least the ones I found on the net so far. And no surprises. Sheesh! So two questions Tony: 1. Do you have the source code to every operating system for every computer you own? I also know you have PCs, so what in the world did you do prior to Linux? Refuse to use MS|PC-DOS? 2. (might as well ask, as long as I'm asking) I know you dislike the whole "board swap" mentality and that you prefer replacing blown chips over replacing a whole board. But why not repair those non-functioning chips? I mean, one blown gate and you toss the *whole* chip? What's with that? [2] -spc (And you actually trust chips to do what they say?) [1] Not my footnote [2] Or in other words---the "components" in today's computers are bigger than yesterday's computers. Right now, the "components" are boards/cards and I can certainly see it being whole computers in the not so distant future. From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 20:31:35 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:31:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Software release philosophy (was Re: open source crap was Re: In-Reply-To: <200512202138.QAA08274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Dec 20, 2005 04:34:33 PM Message-ID: <20051221023135.D72107302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > So, as Roger said, why should you put a moral bent on a personal > > choice? Because that's exactly what you're doing. > > See my reply to Roger. Most briefly, because I believe such choices > hold back the state of the art, and thus harm society as a whole - at > which point it becomes a moral issue. Not to denigrate the work that Dave has done, but it isn't "state of the art"---it's just programming the floppy controller to read different format disks and store the resulting data into a neutral format. No, state of the art is Google, what with their Google File System and their Map/Reduce engine, none of which is available (some information yes, but not actual code). -spc (Hmmm ... this dead horse is beginning to smell ... ) From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 20 20:48:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:48:54 -0600 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43A8C296.7010300@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > < doesn't want to create yet another incompatible file format, and For goodness' sake, the file format is right in the help file. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 20 20:56:53 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:56:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 20, 2005 06:33:15 PM Message-ID: <20051221025654.379AD7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > There are now presumably a number of disks archived in Imagedisk format > that cannot (legally) be read. Great!. This is no better than teledisk. > It has convinced me even more that the only tools I will use to archive > disks are open-source ones, because that's the only way I can be sure > that the author won't throw a hissy fit for whatever reason and make the > archives useless. Here you go Tony, and any other person that bitched about the Imagedisk format being undocumented. If Dave allows, I can include the actual format from his documentation (he wrote the documentation, but said the format is open---I suppose someone can write up the format, but I've already more time on this than I cared to). -spc (Now maybe this will shut up the people that claim the format isn't documented ... ) /********************************************************************* * * Copyright 2001 by Sean Conner. All Rights Reserved. * * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or * modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License * as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 * of the License, or (at your option) any later version. * * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the * GNU General Public License for more details. * * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software * Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA. * * Comments, questions and criticisms can be sent to: sean at conman.org * *********************************************************************/ #include #include #include #include /***********************************************************************/ typedef unsigned char t_byte; enum { TH_MODE, TH_CYLINDER, TH_HEAD, TH_SECTORS, TH_SECTORSIZE, TH_SIZE }; typedef t_byte t_trackheader[5]; struct track { int mode; int cylinder; int head; int sectors; int sectorsize; t_byte *sectormap; t_byte *cylindermap; t_byte *headmap; int *validsector; t_byte **data; }; /**********************************************************************/ static void *my_malloc (size_t); static void *my_realloc (void *,size_t); static void my_fread (void *,size_t,FILE *,int); static int my_feof (FILE *); static void imd_track_header_check (t_trackheader,int,long); char *imd_header (FILE *); struct track *imd_track (FILE *,int); void imd_track_free (struct track *); /**************************************************************************/ int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { int i; int j; FILE *fpin; char *header; struct track *track; static char *modes[] = { "500 kbps FM", "300 kbps FM", "250 kbps FM", "500 kbps MFM", "300 kbps MFM", "250 kbps MFM" }; if (argc == 1) { fprintf(stderr,"usage: %s \n",argv[0]); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } for (i = 1 ; i < argc ; i++) { fpin = fopen(argv[i],"rb"); if (fpin == NULL) { perror(argv[i]); continue; } header = imd_header(fpin); printf("HEADER:\n%s\n",header); free(header); for (j = 0 ; !my_feof(fpin) ; j++) { track = imd_track(fpin,j); printf( "Track: %d\n" "\tMode: %s\n" "\tCylinder: %d\n" "\tHead: %d\n" "\tSectors: %d\n" "\tSector Size: %d\n" "\tCylinder Map: %s\n" "\tHead Map: %s\n", j, modes[track->mode], track->cylinder, track->head, track->sectors, track->sectorsize, (track->cylindermap == NULL) ? "no" : "yes", (track->headmap == NULL) ? "no" : "yes" ); imd_track_free(track); } fclose(fpin); } return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } /*************************************************************************/ static void *my_malloc(size_t size) { void *mem; assert(size > 0); mem = malloc(size); if (mem == NULL) { perror("out of memory"); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } return(mem); } /*************************************************************************/ static void *my_realloc(void *ptr,size_t size) { void *mem; mem = realloc(ptr,size); if (mem == NULL) { perror("out of memory"); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } return(mem); } /************************************************************************/ static void my_fread(void *ptr,size_t size,FILE *fpin,int track) { size_t r; r = fread(ptr,1,size,fpin); if (r != size) { fprintf(stderr,"corrupt track %04d - reading error\n",track); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } } /***************************************************************************/ static int my_feof(FILE *fp) { int c; c = fgetc(fp); if (c == EOF) return(1); ungetc(c,fp); return(0); } /***************************************************************************/ char *imd_header(FILE *fpin) { char *text = NULL; size_t size = 0; size_t i = 0; int c; assert(fpin != NULL); while(!feof(fpin)) { c = fgetc(fpin); if (c == 0x1A) break; if (c == EOF) { fprintf(stderr,"unexpected end of input in header\n"); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } if (i == size) { size += 1024; text = my_realloc(text,size); } text[i++] = c; } if (text) text[i] = '\0'; return(text); } /************************************************************************/ static void imd_track_header_check(t_trackheader th,int track,long pos) { if (th[TH_MODE] > 5) { fprintf( stderr, "corrupt track %04d - non-supported mode %d @ %08lX\n", track, th[TH_MODE], pos ); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } if ((th[TH_HEAD] & 0x3F) > 1) { fprintf( stderr, "corrupt track %04d - non-supported # heads %d @ %08lX\n", track, th[TH_HEAD], pos ); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } if (th[TH_SECTORSIZE] > 6) { fprintf( stderr, "corrupt track %04d - non-supported sector size %d @ %08lX\n", track, th[TH_SECTORSIZE], pos ); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } } /*************************************************************************/ struct track *imd_track(FILE *fpin,int tr) { struct track *track; t_trackheader thead; int i; t_byte sectype; t_byte fill; assert(fpin != NULL); assert(tr > -1); track = my_malloc(sizeof(struct track)); memset(track,0,sizeof(struct track)); my_fread(&thead,sizeof(t_trackheader),fpin,tr); imd_track_header_check(thead,tr,ftell(fpin)); track->mode = thead[TH_MODE]; track->cylinder = thead[TH_CYLINDER]; track->head = thead[TH_HEAD] & 0x3F; track->sectors = thead[TH_SECTORS]; track->sectorsize = 128 << (thead[TH_SECTORSIZE]); assert( (track->sectorsize == 128) || (track->sectorsize == 256) || (track->sectorsize == 512) || (track->sectorsize == 1024) || (track->sectorsize == 2048) || (track->sectorsize == 4096) || (track->sectorsize == 8192) ); track->sectormap = my_malloc(track->sectors); my_fread(track->sectormap,track->sectors,fpin,tr); if (thead[TH_HEAD] & 0x80) { track->cylindermap = my_malloc(track->sectors); my_fread(track->cylindermap,track->sectors,fpin,tr); } if (thead[TH_HEAD] & 0x40) { track->headmap = my_malloc(track->sectors); my_fread(track->headmap,track->sectors,fpin,tr); } track->validsector = my_malloc(track->sectors * sizeof(int)); track->data = my_malloc(track->sectors * sizeof(t_byte *)); for (i = 0 ; i < track->sectors ; i++) { track->data[i] = my_malloc(track->sectorsize); my_fread(§ype,1,fpin,tr); if (sectype == 0) { track->validsector[i] = 0; memset(track->data[i],0,track->sectorsize); } else if (sectype == 1) { track->validsector[i] = 1; my_fread(track->data[i],track->sectorsize,fpin,tr); } else if (sectype == 2) { my_fread(&fill,1,fpin,tr); memset(track->data[i],fill,track->sectorsize); } } return(track); } /************************************************************************/ void imd_track_free(struct track *track) { int i; assert(track != NULL); assert(track->sectormap != NULL); assert(track->data != NULL); for (i = 0 ; i < track->sectors ; i++) { assert(track->data[i] != NULL); free(track->data[i]); } free(track->data); if (track->headmap) free(track->headmap); if (track->cylindermap) free(track->cylindermap); free(track->validsector); free(track->sectormap); free(track); } /**************************************************************************/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 20 21:07:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:07:17 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>One thing I love about my old IBM PC 5150 with ST-225 is that *it is still >>running 22 years later*. I fire it up at least once a week to do some hobby > > Newcommer :-). My 32-year-old HP9830 still fires up. I've had to solder > one kludgewire on a RAM board to repair a damaged track, and had to > replace a couple of TTL chips in the processor. > And of course my HP9100B calculators still work, although I've had to > replace the odd transistor in those. You lose -- you've had to replace components. I don't have the skill to do that, so mine have run longer on original components (so far) ;-) (I say that and, looking at my CGA card in graphics mode, there are single-bit errors twitching on and off -- RAM tests okay so I guess the ramdac has blown a gasket somewhere) > capacitor in parallel with the head significantly reduced it. You wrote "fix" earlier... "reduce" makes more sense. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 20 21:28:45 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:28:45 -0600 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43A8CBED.2070205@oldskool.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > They can still be had, but they're not cheap. Occaisionally someone on ebay will let a Model M go for very very cheap with a Buy It Now price -- watch for those. The ones with the trackpoint in the middle are hard to come by, though. Then again, the $150 price for those NIB are worth it -- what device do you use the most on any computer? My model Ms are nearly 20 years old and flawless, I'd gladly pay $150 to get another if I needed it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 20 21:35:16 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:35:16 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> <43A8CBED.2070205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <017901c605df$98ba4d30$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:28 PM Subject: Re: When did double-shot keytops disappear? > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > They can still be had, but they're not cheap. > > Occaisionally someone on ebay will let a Model M go for very very cheap with a > Buy It Now price -- watch for those. The ones with the trackpoint in the > middle are hard to come by, though. > > Then again, the $150 price for those NIB are worth it -- what device do you use > the most on any computer? My model Ms are nearly 20 years old and flawless, > I'd gladly pay $150 to get another if I needed it. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ Besides the IBM model M and the Northgates, what other keyboards were built like tanks? From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 20 21:39:01 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:39:01 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A7AA6B.7010501@pacbell.net> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43A7AA6B.7010501@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200512202239.01887.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 20 December 2005 01:53 am, Jim Battle wrote: > > After Don Maslin's death and the apparent loss of his collection of disks > and images, there was a lot of group discussion of how to go about > collecting such a library again and this time using a format that wasn't so > obscure as teledisk (which was I'm sure motivated by goals, such as > compactness, that aren't a constraint for pure archival) and that was > maintained. That was replaced by the sound of crickets, then Dave went and > did something about it. Not only did he write the software, he had a good > start on many boot disks that are not available anywhere else (that I'm > aware of anyway). That name sounds real familiar to me for some reason, but I can't quite place it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 20 21:44:42 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:44:42 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43A804D7.9070200@gjcp.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A70F46.9000308@yahoo.co.uk> <43A804D7.9070200@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:19 am, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Old Hammond organs often have a wander light mounted inside, for working > on them. Oh? I've worked on lots of those, and don't remember anything of the sort... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 20 22:06:06 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:06:06 -0500 Subject: other Utah collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512202306.06680.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 20 December 2005 09:23 pm, Richard wrote: > Hey, any other Utah collectors on this list? > > And speaking of geography, has the idea of creating a frappr map of > cctalk subscribers come up before? > One other group I'm involved with has done so, and for quite some time now it won't load properly for me. As in broken. As in I see a message replacing two chunks of the map. I've been in touch with them about it, but got little more than excuses... I'm not interested in bothering further with them until they get it fixed. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 20 22:22:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:22:16 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> References: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> On 12/20/2005 at 9:07 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >(I say that and, looking at my CGA card in graphics mode, there are >single-bit errors twitching on and off -- RAM tests okay so I guess the ramdac has >blown a gasket somewhere) Ramdac? I The output of the CGA was plain RGBI digital, buffered through an LS244. There is a composite output, but it's sort of a simple-minded resistor adder network fet to the base of a 2n3904 to so some level shifting. Best recheck your RAM--and remember that writes to display memory on a CGA can occur only during the retrace interval or they produce "snow". Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 20 22:45:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:45:56 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> References: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>(I say that and, looking at my CGA card in graphics mode, there are >>single-bit errors twitching on and off -- RAM tests okay so I guess the > ramdac has >>blown a gasket somewhere) > > Ramdac? I The output of the CGA was plain RGBI digital, buffered through an Sorry, crude analogy on my part. > LS244. There is a composite output, but it's sort of a simple-minded > resistor adder network fet to the base of a 2n3904 to so some level > shifting. Best recheck your RAM--and remember that writes to display > memory on a CGA can occur only during the retrace interval or they produce > "snow". RAM checks out okay after 65536 pattern writes and reads. So whatever is making the single-bit errors I don't know -- it only happens in 320x200 graphics mode, and is fine elsewhere. This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. As for snow, I've learned to live with it :-) Most programs that work around the snow problem don't handle it properly -- they either only pump out characters during horizontal retrace (slow!) or they try to fire off an entire screen in retrace (produces snow since even 4K is too long) or worse they blank the screen while updating, which just leads to annoying flashes! Best bet is move a single 16-bit word during horizontal retrace and move about 250 words during vertical retrace -- that's about as fast as I've gotten without producing snow. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 20 22:53:56 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:53:56 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on those cards for? Is one of those supposed to be a composite output? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Dec 20 22:57:40 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:57:40 -0800 Subject: Oldest serial number (Apple II Serial Number 2) Message-ID: <001601c605eb$18bdc060$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Back in June of 1977 I had Apple II Serial Number 2 for a few weeks. The power supply failed and it when back to Apple. I never saw that unit again. In January 2005 Bruce Damer visited Jef Raskin and saw this unit. Here is a web page with about this unit. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Apple/allied_computer.htm The early Apple II power supplies had RFI problems. They were a radio transmitter that also put out 5 volts. Michael Holley From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 20 23:03:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > > This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on those cards for? > Is one of those supposed to be a composite output? Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT TWO. EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA boards that have a color composite and a B&W composite jack. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 20 23:06:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:06:08 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43A8E2C0.9030300@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. > > Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on those cards for? > Is one of those supposed to be a composite output? Mine only has one, and yes it's composite output. The colors are different than the 16 textmode colors, however; they're more similar to (but not exactly like) Apple II double-hires mode colors. Two? The only IBM PC video card I've seen with two RCA outputs are some clone EGA cards. I own one; haven't tested it, but based on memory it seemed at the time I last held it that both RCA jacks are composite output and can be used to drive two monitors at the same time. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 20 23:11:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:11:05 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> References: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512202111050982.01CD7EBB@10.0.0.252> 12/20/2005 at 10:45 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >RAM checks out okay after 65536 pattern writes and reads. So whatever is >making the single-bit errors I don't know -- it only happens in 320x200 >graphics mode, and is fine elsewhere. This is an original IBM CGA, not a >clone. That's what I was working from. Have you tried doing a read of the display every so often (without writing) and comparing to previous reads to see if bits are getting picked/dropped? That would settle the question of the RAM. I'm not sure if a read/write will find all problems. The CGA wasn't a bad design, considering what was available, although I wonder about using 74153's in U9/U10 rather than the LS or S parts. Now the MDA was a mess--traces going nowhere, logic that went nowhere. I've wondered if it was some incomplete design rushed to production. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 20 23:28:21 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 00:28:21 -0500 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <43A8CBED.2070205@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> <43A8CBED.2070205@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512210028.22063.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jim Leonard declared on Tuesday 20 December 2005 22:28: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > They can still be had, but they're not cheap. > > Occaisionally someone on ebay will let a Model M go for very very > cheap with a Buy It Now price -- watch for those. The ones with the > trackpoint in the middle are hard to come by, though. > > Then again, the $150 price for those NIB are worth it -- what device > do you use the most on any computer? My model Ms are nearly 20 years > old and flawless, I'd gladly pay $150 to get another if I needed it. If you don't mind used (I've never seen a broken Model M.. it's hard to break one even if you're trying, though I have seen missing/broken keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a couple boxes of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a large-ish hamfest. There's absolutely no reason to spend $150 on a "NIB" one off ebay IMO, unless you've got that much cash to burn... the small amount of time it takes to clean them to a satisfactory level isn't worth nearly that much, unless you get paid Enron CEO wages. :) As to the durability of them... I've had Model M's I had laying around survive hammer blows and my foot stomping on the keys on them. (yes, I really have that many... the ones I did that to were missing some of the keycaps). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 20 23:48:29 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 06:48:29 +0100 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6962825B-71E5-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > Ramdac? I The output of the CGA was plain RGBI digital, buffered > through an > LS244. There is a composite output, but it's sort of a simple-minded > resistor adder network fet to the base of a 2n3904 to so some level > shifting. Do you have details on this resisternetwork ? i.e. is the CGA schematic online somewhere ? I need to add a composite output to a non-IBM CGA card and fit it inside a IBM5155 Jos Dreesen From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 20 23:53:47 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:53:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <6962825B-71E5-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <6962825B-71E5-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20051220215147.U53198@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Do you have details on this resisternetwork ? i.e. is the CGA > schematic online somewhere ? > I need to add a composite output to a non-IBM CGA card and fit it > inside a IBM5155 Does it have a 4 pin berg connector? (possibly with one missing pin) The 6 pin is for light pen; the 4 pin berg has composite and power. From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 00:46:22 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:46:22 -0500 Subject: GPL or BSD: What license do you prefer for the MSCP SCSI project? Message-ID: List members, I reach the point that I need to decide what license I will use when I release my project. I myself do not have a preference. I am planning to replace the unknown-license 53C90 sample code with linux or NetBSD 53C90 driver code. If I use the linux code, I have to release it with GPL. If I use the NetBSD code, I am not able to release it in GPL. I will let you guys decide, since you are the end users. To avoid flooding the mailing list, you can send me private email if you do not have a public message. When I release the project, only 512 B/B CDROM and HD will be supported. There might be a need to add support for other format CDROMs (easy) or SCSI tapes (difficult) or other devices down the road. Bear this in mind when you vote. cheers, vax, 9000 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 20 11:20:30 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051220172030.81116.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I think it would be very unfortunate if the thing just died here and now. I've found Dave to be a very helpful guy, and perhaps he just stretched himself too thin, and with the pressure of the holiday season compacting even further. Bozos need to lay off or at least back off with the source code thing. I feel if he's done with it at some point, he should release it, but don't lecture him about it. Of course releasing it has certain implications, and these need to be considered carefully. Perhaps releasing it to trustworthy individuals :0. Don't ask me who they might be though. Perhaps let's leave the whole issue alone until after the new year(?) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at vintagetech.com Tue Dec 20 20:04:19 2005 From: vcf at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:04:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF server crash Message-ID: Sorry for the lame intrusion :) Last week my server hard drive crashed mysteriously and I've been recovering ever since. Although my websites don't yet reflect it, I've recovered most of my important files and data; I just need to put everything back into its proper place. This would have been a much easier process had my last full backup been more recent than August 8 :( At any rate, I apologize if you tried to contact me and couldn't (my e-mail was down for almost 3 days). Also, if you were waiting for me to get back to you on something, please know that I've basically lost the last four months of my e-mail (it's on my hard disk, somewhere, but finding it will be a manual block-by-block process), and I'd appreciate it if you could send me a reminder message of what you were expecting from me. I had about 800 messages in my inbox going back to 2000 that I was determined to eventually address (obviously not all of them were people waiting for replies...I use my inbox as sort of a to-do list ;) so until I recover my mbox file I pretty much don't remember what was in there. Going forward, I'm now situated on a fault-tolerant server with RAID, and am implementing a more regular backup process. Whoopee for me. With my new server come some minor changes (initially), specifically with my e-mail addresses. I've retired siconic.com as my primary domain and have now adopted vintagetech.com as my primary domain. My primary e-mail address is now or , with the latter likely to become my defacto e-mail address for all things VCF and VintageTech (currently, my outbound mail comes from ). Anyway, while will not be going away anytime soon (if ever) you should update your address book with as my primary e-mail address. Finally, with the new year will come a renewed and intensive effort to catch up on long-promised projects. I have re-organized and re-focused my life so that I can get back to the things I've been wanting to get done, including FutureKeep as well as some so far unannounced projects (ooh, the suspense!) I started a blog on the VCF website (currently unavilable due to crash but coming back very soon) where I keep people posted on VCF happenings behind the scenes plus my usual obnoxious commentary, so you can follow that to keep abreast of what's going on in my realm (I should be so flattered). I also have plans to start hosting more content from my server, once I've upgraded my internet pipe to handle way more bandwidth than I currently have. And of course the VCF will continue, with VCF Europa 7.0 being the next stop closely followed by VCF East 3.0 (hosted by Evan Koblentz and the rest of MARCH). I remain unsubscribed from the CC list but occasionally follow it in the archives just to see what's going on. That doesn't mean I'm cut off from the community. As ever, if anyone needs anything from me or if I can be of assistance with something, please do drop me a line. Now back to your regularly scheduled meditations on vintage computing... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 21 01:44:15 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:44:15 -0800 Subject: GPL or BSD: What license do you prefer for the MSCP SCSI project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >List members, > I reach the point that I need to decide what license I will use when >I release my project. I myself do not have a preference. I am planning >to replace the unknown-license 53C90 sample code with linux or NetBSD >53C90 driver code. If I use the linux code, I have to release it with >GPL. If I use the NetBSD code, I am not able to release it in GPL. I >will let you guys decide, since you are the end users. To avoid >flooding the mailing list, you can send me private email if you do not >have a public message. > When I release the project, only 512 B/B CDROM and HD will be >supported. There might be a need to add support for other format >CDROMs (easy) or SCSI tapes (difficult) or other devices down the >road. Bear this in mind when you vote. > >cheers, >vax, 9000 Well, I'm a potential user[1], after all, I am definitely interested in MSCP SCSI :^) My vote is for a BSD style license. Zane [1] I must confess I'm less of a potential user than many people here with DEC HW as I use Viking QDT and UDT boards, however, I've watched this when I have time with interest. -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Dec 21 02:13:09 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:13:09 +1300 Subject: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) References: <002501c604bc$8dbfae30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20051219202935.7785c0f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <04ac01c60606$61496c10$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Oldest machine (was: Re: Good haul of old pc stuph) SNIP___ > I used to have an HP Model 100 Oscillator. That was HP's first > commercial product. Wasn't the 200A oscillator the first commercial product? The letter suffix advanced through several later variants and the case style changed from horizontal to vertical but they were all 200 series audio oscillators. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/207 - Release Date: 19/12/2005 From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Dec 21 02:48:43 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 03:48:43 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled Message-ID: <01C605E1.714D2720@mse-d03> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:24:09 -0500 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled >Well lets be honest here, people do not do anything for "free".... I actually feel a little sorry for someone who sees the world like that... So, donating anonymously to charity or just picking a piece of garbage off the street and putting it into the nearest receptacle is not merely doing the right thing or just being who you are, but "buying" a good feeling? How cynical... >...friends who keep taking up your personal time fixing their computers as long >as you do it for free but once a token amount is asked for the time involved >(even just a free lunch) these same people get pissy and refuse... Well, since you're apparently one of those people who doesn't do anything for free and expects some form of payment from your "friends," perhaps you could either make that clear in the beginning or just refuse. Or perhaps find new "friends;" I usually say that, half-seriously, "this is gonna cost you a lunch," and I've never had any of my friends refuse - quite to the contrary. >I always thought that if there really is demand for a utility then at least a >token amount of money should be charged for that utility. So now another of the many things that Dave did wrong was to offer it for free... This gets more and more bizarre; a fascinating insight into the mentalities and perspectives of the writers though... mike From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Dec 21 03:25:36 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:25:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? Message-ID: <7811.1135157136@www18.gmx.net> [Firstly, excuse me for not taking part in the recent flame-pissing match. I've been seeing valid points on both sides initially but can't accept any of them any more due to the inconsiderate, impolite and unfair means they were brought forward with. I can only second the following: Chris M wrote: > I think it would be very unfortunate if the thing > just died here and now. Back to publicly frustrating myself with Sun vs. PC boot problems ;-)] Dan Williams wrote: > I can't really help you directly, but I have had no problems booting > sun machines from windows using vmware and virtual pc. I also have > netbsd installed on simh vax, which I used to boot an octane a while > back. I guess that cygwin would probably do the job as well. > Unless you really want to spend time playing with open firmwire, it > might be easier. It's already been suggested, but I strongly dislike the idea of pileing a virtual machine and another OS on top of it all on the PC side (a humble P90, btw) when the functionality that I need could be actually realized by *simplifying* what the Sun is doing. I'll rather spend that time with open firmware, as you said. der Mouse wrote: > > (...) Why does it have to obtain the machine's IP, that of the > > tftp server and what else via rarp? > > It can't obtain anything but its own address via rarp. It normally > gets its TFTP server's address via bootparams, I think, at least for > older machines (newer ones may use something else for all I know). > It's possible that it initially queries whoever answered its RARP, but > if it gets no answer it broadcasts the query - and I think it > broadcasts the TFTP request too if necessary. Funny...I don't remember setting up a bootp(aram)d, I started getting tftp requests as soon as the rarp table was setup. I also don't think the requests were broadcast: I was running another machine ready to serve tftp at the same time and that one didn't get any requests. I was even able to shut down Linux after the rarp resolution (if tftp was disabled), bring the same system up with Windows (under the same IP) and have the Sun slurp its bootloader image from there. > > I'm by no means a Sun expert yet, but as I've understood it, you can > > define your own FCode commands and store them in NVRAM, so one could > > modify the boot code to use parameters stored in environment > > variables, either if a flag "use-stored-IP?" is set or as a fallback > > if there's no rarp server around. > > Yes, except that the space available in the NVRAM is fairly limited as > I understand it. That might indeed be a problem, although not necessarily. > > I've already got myself a Forth book and the FCode manuals from Sun, > > and I had a look at some commands with "see". "see" however often > > spits out hexadecimal codes in parenthesis amidst of Forth words and > > I've yet to understand what they mean; > > They appear to be some kind of headerless something. There's one of > the words internal to see that can deal with them - (see or some such - > and you can use it as in > > ok see foo > ... (f28470c0) ... > ok f284709c0 (see > ... that word ... > > (or whatever the internal word is - it's visible in "see see"). Yep, it's (see) - thank you. I may have tried that earlier but failed due to not realizing this used postfix notation (contrary to see). It works and I'm in course of building an indented listing of everything that happens after I enter "boot". It looks like I can initiating the execution of unnamed subroutine (f00...) by entering f00... execute; any gotchas there? Stan Barr wrote: > I can't really help directly. Even though I've used Forth for 25 yrs and > have both Power Mac and Sun machines here I've not done much with Open > Firmware. You might try looking at http://www.openfirmware.org/ or > http://playground.sun.com/1275/ and see if there are any useful links. Thank you, those are quite promising resources; I think I've got something to read over the holidays now... hopefully a few comments about how this stuff is supposed to work. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 21 06:03:37 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 07:03:37 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:44:51 EST." Message-ID: <200512211203.jBLC3cHi028234@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Donzelli wrote: > >For a while PDP-10s, mostly KS10s, were popping up like mushrooms. I have >not heard of any lately. Anyone know of any in the past two years? I'd also be interested - especially in a KS-10. -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 21 10:38:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:38:34 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled - real backups are needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A9850A.7090609@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >There are now presumably a number of disks archived in Imagedisk format >that cannot (legally) be read. Great!. This is no better than teledisk. >It has convinced me even more that the only tools I will use to archive >disks are open-source ones, because that's the only way I can be sure >that the author won't throw a hissy fit for whatever reason and make the >archives useless. > > > But could they be legally read in the first place? It seems with all this talk of copywright only using the OS supplied by the disk's in the first place is it legal. I think the best way to archive the disks of any format is to keep the orginal hardware and media working. >-tony > >. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 21 10:50:53 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:50:53 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051220222603.GR7299@bass.mejeriet.home> References: <200512202145.NAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> <20051220222603.GR7299@bass.mejeriet.home> Message-ID: <43A987ED.3030703@jetnet.ab.ca> Christer O. Andersson wrote: >No, it can be a great thing still, but it is more trustworthy if >you can read the source code, and as I have mentioned enough already, >others can pick it up if the original author for one reason or >another decides to drop the project. I would personally never trust >a tool that can disappear anytime due to the authors wish. It >actually happened here, even if Dave realized it was a bit thick >and changed his mind to let people continue to use the tool. > > > I think that appiles to 99% of all the code written. In the case of image disk, have source code may not be needed, if it written in modules, the only a device driver need to be linked into his code. Since I don't have a classic machine I have not paid much to this thread but a lot can be said for getiing a mini - unix style OS for the older machines. dd and tar can be your friends provided one can get a -tiny- or -basic- function of the code. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 21 10:54:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:54:55 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: <01C605E1.714D2720@mse-d03> Message-ID: <001401c6064f$45630c60$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:48 AM Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled > Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:24:09 -0500 > From: "Teo Zenios" > Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled > > >Well lets be honest here, people do not do anything for "free".... > > I actually feel a little sorry for someone who sees the world like that... > > So, donating anonymously to charity or just picking a piece of garbage off > the street and putting it into the nearest receptacle is not merely doing the > right thing or just being who you are, but "buying" a good feeling? How cynical... > The momentary good feeling you get for doing the right thing is a feedback that keeps you doing it. > >...friends who keep taking up your personal time fixing their computers as long > >as you do it for free but once a token amount is asked for the time involved > >(even just a free lunch) these same people get pissy and refuse... > > Well, since you're apparently one of those people who doesn't do anything > for free and expects some form of payment from your "friends," perhaps you > could either make that clear in the beginning or just refuse. Or perhaps > find new "friends;" I usually say that, half-seriously, "this is gonna cost you > a lunch," and I've never had any of my friends refuse - quite to the contrary. > I do not charge a fee to help friends and relatives out, not even mentioning "this is gonna cost you a lunch" like you do aparently. The thing is some people tend to take advantage of the situation and keep getting into the same jam all the time expecting you to get them out of it. If you are going to get stuck solving the same problem for the same person just mention you want to be paid for it and the problem goes away. > >I always thought that if there really is demand for a utility then at least a > >token amount of money should be charged for that utility. > > So now another of the many things that Dave did wrong was to offer it for free... I never said Dave did anything wrong, I was talking in general. A token fee just gives you an idea if anybody needs the utility. > > This gets more and more bizarre; a fascinating insight into the mentalities > and perspectives of the writers though... > > mike From kth at srv.net Wed Dec 21 11:27:43 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:27:43 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A8C296.7010300@oldskool.org> References: <200512200506.AAA00329@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43A8C296.7010300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43A9908F.3090307@srv.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > >> < doesn't want to create yet another incompatible file format, and > > > For goodness' sake, the file format is right in the help file. What help file? Or should we violate his wishes, and pirate the software? That would make me uncomfortable. It's his right to make it available (or not) with whatever restrictions he wants on it, and I would prefer not to violate those restrictions. Remember, he pulled the binary package, and insisted that all copies be destroyed. Thus no program, thus no help file. He later allowed those who have already used it to create images the right to use it, but I didn't see him give them any rights to pass the program, or the right to use it, on. I might feel better if the licensing of whatever is left were made clearer, and included in the package, but until then, it is (to me) just another undocumented format. From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 11:45:38 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A9908F.3090307@srv.net> Message-ID: On 12/21/05 12:27 PM, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > > What help file? Or should we violate his wishes, and pirate > the software? That would make me uncomfortable. > > It's his right to make it available (or not) with whatever > restrictions he wants on it, and I would prefer not to violate > those restrictions. > > Remember, he pulled the binary package, and insisted that all > copies be destroyed. Thus no program, thus no help file. He > later allowed those who have already used it to create images > the right to use it, but I didn't see him give them any rights > to pass the program, or the right to use it, on. He also later on said that people could redistribute it if they had it, too. From kth at srv.net Wed Dec 21 12:04:24 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:04:24 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled - real backups are needed In-Reply-To: <43A9850A.7090609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43A9850A.7090609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43A99928.20403@srv.net> woodelf wrote: > But could they be legally read in the first place? It seems with all > this talk of copywright > only using the OS supplied by the disk's in the first place is it > legal. I think the best way to > archive the disks of any format is to keep the orginal hardware and > media working. Not all disks contain operating system software. Many of us have disks with our own software/data/writings on them, which should be legal for us to read no matter what copywrite is in place (you don't usually copyright against yourself). From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 12:05:39 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:05:39 -0700 Subject: FYI: VAXen on govliquidation.com Message-ID: Hi, just in case anyone's interested, there are a number of VAXen on right now... VAX Server 3500 Redstone Arsenal, AL VAX 6000-420 Mechanicsburg, PA VAX Server 5000-200 Fort Lewis, WA -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 21 12:19:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:19:29 -0600 Subject: When did double-shot keytops disappear? In-Reply-To: <200512210028.22063.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051220141059.01be4268@mail.30below.com> <43A8CBED.2070205@oldskool.org> <200512210028.22063.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43A99CB1.8020201@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a couple boxes > of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a large-ish hamfest. No flea markets or hamfests in my area, sadly. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 21 12:36:27 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: FYI: VAXen on govliquidation.com In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 21, 2005 11:05:39 AM Message-ID: <200512211836.jBLIaR1R006700@onyx.spiritone.com> > Hi, just in case anyone's interested, there are a number of VAXen on > right now... > > VAX Server 3500 Redstone Arsenal, AL > VAX 6000-420 Mechanicsburg, PA > VAX Server 5000-200 Fort Lewis, WA I'm wondering if the last one isn't mis-listed. I'm thinking 4000-200, or else that it might be a MIPS system. Anyone have any idea? Zane From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 12:39:21 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:39:21 -0700 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:19:29 -0600. <43A99CB1.8020201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43A99CB1.8020201 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a couple boxes > > of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a large-ish hamfest. > > No flea markets or hamfests in my area, sadly. Same here. It seems that the best opportunities for vintage computing stuff via flea markets and hamfests are limited to places like the mid atlantic and the bay area. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kth at srv.net Wed Dec 21 12:50:49 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:50:49 -0700 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43A9A409.7020703@srv.net> Gary Sparkes wrote: >He also later on said that people could redistribute it if they had it, too. > > Must have missed that one. After the package was pulled (and request for destruction of same), I'd still prefer a clearer license than: "search through the messages in these newsgroups, and find all those that revise the copyright on this package." I'd rather not have something seak up behind me and bite off any important bits because I missed one message. Copyright via newsgroup doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy. It's too easy to mess with the messages in a newsgroup (forged posts, etc.). Legally, the rights should be whatever is described in the supplied package, but I'd still like to honor the authors current intent. With both copyrights and patents being applied to software nowadays, and all the fun we've had with the Linux vs. SCO, the GIF patent, etc., I'd prefer to have a clear license to avoid future problems. Lawyers are *not* fun to deal with. From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Dec 21 12:49:31 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 12:49:31 -0600 Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <000001c6062c$738a9ef0$0a01a8c0@p4> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051221124254.0c7f9168@localhost> Oh my heavens, I don't think I am any sort of expert, but will try to help. Do you have a document for the controller card? If not, I will try to find my copy. Yes, most RLL drives can be formatted to lower capacity and used on a MFM controller, but some aren't reliable when used that way. I don't know which are. What happens when you start the formatter in debug? Does it attempt the format and light up the drive or fail immediately? Do you have any other old PC or XT machines you can try this in? 1701 is a generic hard disk failure code, but it could imply that the bios is set incorrectly and just doesn't recognize the drive. Shouldn't stop you from formatting it, but then again, perhaps you don't need to, maybe you need to fix something else that is wrong. A cabling issue perhaps. The reason I ask about another PC is that I seem to recall the PS2 needing a diskette to configure it, whereas an XT or clone wouldn't. -T At 01:45 PM 12/21/2005 +0100, you wrote: >Good morning Tom, > >I've just read a topic on the cctalk mailing list in which you seem to be >en expert in old MFM/RLL disk drives. > >I get many troubles in trying to place a WD disk controller with a >miniscribe 8438 disc. As many people do, I always get the famous 20 or >1701 errors whan trying to low level format with the debug command, under >MS dos (G=C800:5) > > >I think i've been trying all that could be possible : removing jumpers, >changing the WD driver card ... it never works. I've put another >combination of MFM disk drive plus WD controller, and I obtained good >results, so, it's not a problem with the computer, but certainly a problem >of disk and/or controller. > > >My controller is a WD1002A-WX1. I know it's for MFM disk, and I also know >that the 8438 disc is a RLL, but it's said that it can also be formatted >to 20Mbytes on a single WD MFM controller. > >The machine is IBM PS2 model 30. The 8438 is used to replace the old >WDL-320 disk drive that doesn't work (it also sends the 1701 error code, >butI don't know how to low-level format it.. > > > >Many thanks if you can give me your help. > >I apologize for disturbing you. > > >--... ...-- -.. . ..-. ..... .. -. .-.. > >Frederic BOSSU, F5INL > [Pop Culture] Well, what would you do with a brain if you had one? -- Dorothy, The Wizard of Oz --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tomhudson at execpc.com Wed Dec 21 13:44:14 2005 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:44:14 -0600 Subject: Interference (was: Apple II Serial Number 2) In-Reply-To: <001601c605eb$18bdc060$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001601c605eb$18bdc060$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <43A9B08E.3030709@execpc.com> Michael Holley wrote: > > The early Apple II power supplies had RFI problems. They were a radio > transmitter that also put out 5 volts. > Ha ha! Those power supplies were nothing -- Everybody in my neighborhood could tell when I had my Compucolor II on -- TVs went completely herringbone because there was no shielding whatsoever on any part of them! My parents were absolute saints for putting up with it, and I used it a LOT (when it wasn't shooting out smoke from the badly-designed video display section...) -Tom -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 21 13:53:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:53:40 -0500 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Richard declared on Wednesday 21 December 2005 13:39: > In article <43A99CB1.8020201 at oldskool.org>, > > Jim Leonard writes: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a couple > > > boxes of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a large-ish > > > hamfest. > > > > No flea markets or hamfests in my area, sadly. > > Same here. It seems that the best opportunities for vintage computing > stuff via flea markets and hamfests are limited to places like the mid > atlantic and the bay area. Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana hamfest, where the keyboards came from. Oh wait you didn't say "midwest". :) Or, you could ask the list if anyone has some for sale, and I'm sure you could find "someone" willing to sell you one for $10 or so. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 15:03:24 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:03:24 -0800 Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051221124254.0c7f9168@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051221124254.0c7f9168@localhost> Message-ID: <200512211303240976.05355ED1@10.0.0.252> At the expense of stating the obvious, have you eliminated the possibility of the controller and its cables having a problem? I do have the jumper settings for the controller if you need them. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 15:23:32 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:23:32 -0700 Subject: FYI: VAXen on govliquidation.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:36:27 -0800. <200512211836.jBLIaR1R006700@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200512211836.jBLIaR1R006700 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > Hi, just in case anyone's interested, there are a number of VAXen on > > right now... > > > > VAX Server 3500 Redstone Arsenal, AL > > VAX 6000-420 Mechanicsburg, PA > > VAX Server 5000-200 Fort Lewis, WA > > I'm wondering if the last one isn't mis-listed. I'm thinking 4000-200, or > else that it might be a MIPS system. Anyone have any idea? Most likely its mis-named in the listing. That often happens but if you look at photos (or better yet, preview the lot in person) or the detailed listing you can verify what it is. This place is more tedious and difficult to participate in than ebay, but the stuff is of a different nature. For computers, the hard drives are always ripped out so factor that into any interest you might have. The hard drives will have been destroyed separately, so you can't get "wiped" drives from them that match the main unit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 21 15:24:37 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:24:37 -0600 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear?) In-Reply-To: <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43A9C815.80904@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana hamfest, > where the keyboards came from. Oh wait you didn't say "midwest". :) Actually, I'm in SW Chicagoland, but Fort Wayne isn't close (meaning, if I have to burn $20 in gas to get a $10 keyboard, something's not right ;-) > Or, you could ask the list if anyone has some for sale, and I'm sure you > could find "someone" willing to sell you one for $10 or so. I have plenty; I was just lamenting that there aren't any hamfests (or other swap meets of this nature) within an hour of me, and because of that, I see no problem paying $150 for something I'd use for 20 years. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 15:25:43 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:25:43 -0700 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:53:40 -0500. <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200512211453.40575.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > Richard declared on Wednesday 21 December 2005 13:39: > > In article <43A99CB1.8020201 at oldskool.org>, > > > > Jim Leonard writes: > > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a couple > > > > boxes of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a large-ish > > > > hamfest. > > > > > > No flea markets or hamfests in my area, sadly. > > > > Same here. It seems that the best opportunities for vintage computing > > stuff via flea markets and hamfests are limited to places like the mid > > atlantic and the bay area. > > Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana hamfest, > where the keyboards came from. Oh wait you didn't say "midwest". :) There just isn't the same urban density out in the western states with the exception of the Pacific coastal megalopoli. The density in the mid Atlantic and Great Lakes regions are significantly higher for vintage computing equipment than the intermountain West in my experience. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 21 15:41:44 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:41:44 -0500 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512211641.44806.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 December 2005 16:25, Richard wrote: > In article <200512211453.40575.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Richard declared on Wednesday 21 December 2005 13:39: > > > In article <43A99CB1.8020201 at oldskool.org>, > > > > > > Jim Leonard writes: > > > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > > keycaps or missing/cut off cables), a friend of mine got a > > > > > couple boxes of them (probably 20+ keyboards) for $10 at a > > > > > large-ish hamfest. > > > > > > > > No flea markets or hamfests in my area, sadly. > > > > > > Same here. It seems that the best opportunities for vintage > > > computing stuff via flea markets and hamfests are limited to > > > places like the mid atlantic and the bay area. > > > > Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana > > hamfest, where the keyboards came from. Oh wait you didn't say > > "midwest". :) > > There just isn't the same urban density out in the western states > with the exception of the Pacific coastal megalopoli. The density in > the mid Atlantic and Great Lakes regions are significantly higher for > vintage computing equipment than the intermountain West in my > experience. Then perhaps you should move somewhere that has more vintage computers. ;-) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 21 15:52:58 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:52:58 -0500 Subject: flea markets & hamfests (was: When did double-shot keytops disappear? ) In-Reply-To: <43A9C815.80904@oldskool.org> References: <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43A9C815.80904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512211652.58161.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 December 2005 16:24, Jim Leonard wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana > > hamfest, where the keyboards came from. Oh wait you didn't say > > "midwest". :) > > Actually, I'm in SW Chicagoland, but Fort Wayne isn't close (meaning, > if I have to burn $20 in gas to get a $10 keyboard, something's not > right ;-) Fort wayne is probaby just as close for you as for me - it's a 2-2.5hr drive from here. Going there once a year is *definately* worthwhile, there's always something interesting and worth the time to drive there, though it may not be what you went to get. I've spent $150 in gas to pick up a $10 computer and not regretted it... of course, that was a computer I paid $10 for, not something that was worth $10 to me. (IBM ES/9000 9121-191, 9343 disk array, and 3270 terminal muxes. Also ended up getting ST fiber junction boxes, and 24 port CAT5e patch panels for $5 each, or less.) > > Or, you could ask the list if anyone has some for sale, and I'm > > sure you could find "someone" willing to sell you one for $10 or > > so. > > I have plenty; I was just lamenting that there aren't any hamfests > (or other swap meets of this nature) within an hour of me, and > because of that, I see no problem paying $150 for something I'd use > for 20 years. I guess. I'm just pointing out there's cheaper places to get them, and it's silly... well idiotic in my opinion... to pay significantly more than than you need to for something (unless it's otherwise special or unique, like a prototype or something). Model M's aren't all that uncommon either, I see them go through Purdue's salvage OP, probably a few per month. Most of those get tossed in the dumpster, partly because I have a few times more Model M's than I have computers to use them on at this point. :) Would you pay 15 times the going used rate to get a new (or NOS) version of anything else that is as indestructible as a model M? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Dec 21 15:36:50 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:36:50 -0600 Subject: Early 3.5" Floppy Drives (3.x on DEC Rainbow) In-Reply-To: <200512151328.jBFDSpr4059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512151328.jBFDSpr4059472@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >--- Chris M wrote: > > 3.2 or .3 was available for the NEC APC III and the >Rainbow (I think). I'm not absolutely sure the NEC >version was APC III specific, though probably. The APC >III had a compatibility board called the SLE (Software >Library Expander). The thing I saw on ebay could have >been vanilla ms-dos but I kind of doubt it. MS-DOS 3.10b from Suitable Solutions is the last Rainbow MS-DOS Version I know about (assuming you mean the DEC Rainbow). (There were also CP/M, CCP/M, p-system (see ftp.update.se) and rumored Venix.) -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 17:01:46 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:01:46 -0800 Subject: IBM Thermal Conduction Module and 3084 chip offered Message-ID: I thought I would mention it to the list before posting it on ebay. I need to go to the dentist in January. I am going to part with my last IBM Mainframe 3084 chip. It is still encased in its original Thermal Conduction Module.Chip looks similar to this. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV3121.html The IBM 3084 mainframe is this: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP3084.html As a collectable I think the Thermal Conduction Module is much rarer than the 4" chip. IBM classifies it as one of their most important developments. The chips were saved or scrapped for their very high gold content. The thermal modules were copper based with aluminum plungers and quickly sent to scrap. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2137.html Here is some information on the development of the Thermal Conduction Module. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_intro3.html This is a thermal Conduction Module that has never been opened. From reading it is filled with helium so I have decided not to crack it unless I absolutely have to for pictures. It came from a IBM 3084 we scrapped in 1993 or 94. The chip inside is similar to one I sold on ebay last month, pictures in the ebay listing would be similar to the chip inside this module. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8727630848 Asking $1200 domestic shipping included. Always open to offers. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 17:31:59 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:31:59 -0700 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? Message-ID: OK, there are lots of sites that put things like mini and microcomputers into their historical context with photos, hardware and software descriptions, etc. What is considered the best reference for mainframe like machines? For instance, anyone want to bid on a Gould Concept/32? Opening bid is $1.00, sale ends 12/30/06 from Boeing in St. Louis, MO. Well, sounds *dirt* cheap to me, but I know f*ck all about Gould computers other than the University of Utah bought one at one point in the 90s. (I don't even know if they still have it.) Suggestions anyone? Comments on "DoveBid" are also welcome; I only found out about them today. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 21 17:35:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:35:30 -0500 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512211835.30393.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 December 2005 18:31, Richard wrote: > OK, there are lots of sites that put things like mini and > microcomputers into their historical context with photos, hardware > and software descriptions, etc. > > What is considered the best reference for mainframe like machines? > > For instance, anyone want to bid on a Gould Concept/32? > > > Opening bid is $1.00, sale ends 12/30/06 from Boeing in St. Louis, > MO. 12/30/**06**?!? That's probably the longest auction I've ever seen. I hope they really meant 12/30/05. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 21 17:48:46 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:48:46 -0600 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051221174211.02424b08@mail.ubanproductions.com> Wow! I worked for Gould back in the days when they made that machine doing Unix OS development. If I recall correctly, that is a dual processor ECL machine running at something close to 1Gflop, with an architecture similar to an IBM mainframe (e.g. I/O channels, etc.). I'm guessing that finding any documentation and/or software for it at this point would be difficult. My memory on this has also faded quite a bit, so please don't quote me... --tom At 04:31 PM 12/21/2005 -0700, Richard wrote: >OK, there are lots of sites that put things like mini and >microcomputers into their historical context with photos, hardware and >software descriptions, etc. > >What is considered the best reference for mainframe like machines? > >For instance, anyone want to bid on a Gould Concept/32? > > >Opening bid is $1.00, sale ends 12/30/06 from Boeing in St. Louis, MO. > >Well, sounds *dirt* cheap to me, but I know f*ck all about Gould >computers other than the University of Utah bought one at one point in >the 90s. (I don't even know if they still have it.) > >Suggestions anyone? > >Comments on "DoveBid" are also welcome; I only found out about them >today. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 17:55:47 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:55:47 -0800 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512211555470529.05D32CA1@10.0.0.252> On 12/21/2005 at 4:31 PM Richard wrote: >OK, there are lots of sites that put things like mini and >microcomputers into their historical context with photos, hardware and >software descriptions, etc. > >What is considered the best reference for mainframe like machines? There's an outfit still around to provide parts and service for the things. Here's a description of the system: http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_87.htm I don't know what the bare CPU cabinet would be worth sans peripherals and software, though. Cheers, Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 21 18:10:40 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:10:40 -0600 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20051221174211.02424b08@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20051221180832.062de718@mail.ubanproductions.com> Ok, my memory is coming back some. The dual processor 1Gflop machine was the NP1. The 9080 was an earlier/slower single processor machine. Many of these were sold into process control settings with real time software. --tom At 05:48 PM 12/21/2005 -0600, Tom Uban wrote: >Wow! I worked for Gould back in the days when they made that machine >doing Unix OS development. If I recall correctly, that is a dual processor >ECL machine running at something close to 1Gflop, with an architecture >similar to an IBM mainframe (e.g. I/O channels, etc.). I'm guessing that >finding any documentation and/or software for it at this point would be >difficult. My memory on this has also faded quite a bit, so please don't >quote me... > >--tom > >At 04:31 PM 12/21/2005 -0700, Richard wrote: > >>OK, there are lots of sites that put things like mini and >>microcomputers into their historical context with photos, hardware and >>software descriptions, etc. >> >>What is considered the best reference for mainframe like machines? >> >>For instance, anyone want to bid on a Gould Concept/32? >> >> >>Opening bid is $1.00, sale ends 12/30/06 from Boeing in St. Louis, MO. >> >>Well, sounds *dirt* cheap to me, but I know f*ck all about Gould >>computers other than the University of Utah bought one at one point in >>the 90s. (I don't even know if they still have it.) >> >>Suggestions anyone? >> >>Comments on "DoveBid" are also welcome; I only found out about them >>today. >>-- >>"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: >> >> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty >> > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 21 18:31:54 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:31:54 -0700 Subject: Contextual reference for mainframes/supercomputers? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Dec 2005 15:55:47 -0800. <200512211555470529.05D32CA1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512211555470529.05D32CA1 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > There's an outfit still around to provide parts and service for the things. > Here's a description of the system: > > http://www.encore-support.com/htmls/32_87.htm Well its a good thing they take paypal! :-) > I don't know what the bare CPU cabinet would be worth sans peripherals and > software, though. Me neither. I'm not seriously considering bidding on the Gould. I am more likely to consider bidding on the GE CompuScene IV visual simulator :-). But it did raise the question of how one finds out about these "big iron" machines, particularly since they seem to be a disappearing beast except for high-end simulation at places like government laboratories. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 21 18:40:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:40:00 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:03:46 -0800 (PST) Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > > > This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. > On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on > > those cards for? Is one of those supposed to be a composite > > output? > > Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT > TWO. EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA > boards that have a color composite and a B&W composite jack. > That begs the question of what the two RCA jacks on the EGA card are for. I know that the one on the CGA card provides composite video. > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 21 19:02:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:02:06 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: >>Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT >>TWO. EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA >>boards that have a color composite and a B&W composite jack. > > That begs the question of what the two RCA jacks on the EGA card > are for. I know that the one on the CGA card provides composite > video. As already answered in an earlier post, it depends on the card. Some EGA cards produce identical signals down both jacks; others produce color on one and mono on the other. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:49:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:49:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <6962825B-71E5-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 21, 5 06:48:29 am Message-ID: > Do you have details on this resisternetwork ? i.e. is the CGA The actual circuit is a bit more complicated than just a resistor network, because it also does NTSC colour encoding. But you wouldn't need that for the 5155. > schematic online somewhere ? > I need to add a composite output to a non-IBM CGA card and fit it > inside a IBM5155 I've seen plenty of real IBM CGA cards on E-bay. Is there a good reason not to use one of those, and get the machine more original? I don't know of any CGA scheamtics on the web, alas. Anyway, shouldn't you be designing it yourself rather than taking somebody else's work? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:26:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <012b01c605c7$ac6f3d80$2fcfbd41@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 20, 5 07:44:17 pm Message-ID: > I always thought that if there really is demand for a utility then atleast a > token amount of money should be charged for that utility. You will find that > people who claim to need changes to the utility but are unwilling to pay a I think you're comparing Apples and IBMs here :-). It is one thing to expect _you_ to make changes to your program (and that arguably should be charged for), it's another to want to make those changes themselves... > few bucks for a new revision should just be ignored, they remind me of > friends who keep taking up your personal time fixing their computers as long Are you seriously suggesting you think that the Internet would be better if everything was charged for? No free downloads of old manuals like on bitsavers, for example (somebody spent time scanning those, converting them to pdf, etc). No free schematics on hpmuseum.net (I spent hundreds, no make that thousands. of hours drawing those out), etc. I have written a few (OK, very few) utilities, and have never charged for any of them, and nor do I ever intend to. > very little if any for the software that makes the machine usable. You do > not owe the world the source code for your hard work period. If people want > to use some of your code they should pay for it or write their own. Sales Next time somebody here asks for a sevice manual, or a schematic, or a pinout, or... I will not bother to look it up for them. I will simply point out that you can deduce the necessary information from the machine, from data sheets available on the net (and you'll have to go and find them) and a few hours with a mulitmeter. I won't bother pointing out useful repair tricks, it took me time to discrover them, why should I help you. > should be a yardstick to measure if continuing the development of the > utility is worth the effort. Sooner or later the people who needed the > utility will already have it, at that point you can quit developing and > destroy the source code or release it in any manner you like. Why do I get > the feeling that people who push really hard for open sourcing just want to > use your knowledge and time for free in their projects? So now you're claiming that all users of linux and *BSD are plagarists. Yes, I will admit I've used ideas from open-source programs in my own programs. Yes, I will also admit that I've looked at published schematics and thought 'hey, that's a neat trick to save a few ns of delay', and used something similar in my own design. If the trick is significant, it gets an acknowledgement of the form 'Using a mux to decode the signals {foo...barr} was inspired by the DEC KT11-C schematic' That, IMHO, is a far cry from ripping off somebody's work. Or do you want to re-invent the wheel every time. Can any programmer or electronic designer honestly claim to have never read somebody else's code/schematics and taken ideas from it? Because I would doubt it. To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do wonder if it's actually possible to write such a program to run under linux or any other multi-tasking system. It is relatively easy to write a program to dump an image back to a physical disk. I've done similar things several times for specific disk formats (in particular TRS-80 M2/M4 and HP LIF). To do the reverse -- to imagge a disk _once the format is known_ is also easy. The problem comes with discovering the format. I've read and re-read the 8272 and 765 data sheets. From what I can see the only way to see what sectors are on the current track is to use the ReadID command. This returns the ID bytes from the next sector header to pass under the head. There is no way to automatically dump all the IDs from all the sectors from index pulse to the next index pulse (if there is, can somebody please enlighten me). On a single-tasking OS, you could submit another ReadID command as soon as you get the reuslts from the current one, and keep on going until you read the same ID again. That way you will hopefully have read all the headers on a track (hope you don't miss any ;-)). On a multi-tasking machine it seems to be hopeless. Your task could be switched out during this operation, you will then miss some sectors, you will not discover all the IDs. If I am missing something, please enlighten me (point me to the appropriate section of the Intel or NEC datasheets, for example. I have both). If not, then why did nobody point this out days ago, in which case this whole flamefest could have been seriously reduced. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:35:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:35:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051221022652.565DE7302A@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Dec 20, 5 09:26:51 pm Message-ID: > > Without seeing the source code to Imagedisk, how do I know that it > > actually follows that spec. I will assume Dave is not so malicious as to > > XOR the sector data with pseudorandom bit stream or anything stupid [1] > > but how do I know that there isn't a bug in the progrma that causes it to > > fail if there are more than 27 sectors/track or something? > > Then you must be a better programmer than I, to be able to tell if a I don't claim to be a programmer at all. But I will make this claim. It's a lot easier to discover a bug in software if you have seen the sources. I know for a fact it's a lot easier to see possible design bugs in hardware if you have the schematics (because that I have done many times). > 1. Do you have the source code to every operating system for every > computer you own? I also know you have PCs, so what in the world For the machines I _use_, yes I do. Even a couple of my calculators. No, they are not open-source in the FSF sense, but the source code is available. > did you do prior to Linux? Refuse to use MS|PC-DOS? My views changed majorly once I started to run Minix (not open-source, but source available) and more particularly linux. I found I had many fewer problems because I could read the source to find the cause of an error message (rather than just an entry in the manual), I found I could modify and fix things. Sometimes the problem would be due to my somewhat unconventional hardware (which I would not expect anyone to support other than me). I could either fix the problem with the hardware (e.g. a port bit was not doing the right thing in some odd circumstance) or I could patch the program. And having dscovered the advantages of being able to do that, I am not going to go back, certainly not on a machine that I depend on. > > 2. (might as well ask, as long as I'm asking) I know you dislike > the whole "board swap" mentality and that you prefer replacing > blown chips over replacing a whole board. But why not repair those > non-functioning chips? I mean, one blown gate and you toss the I am not sure anyone can repair a chip. Are you suggesting I start moving atoms around to correct the wrong doping levels, oxided metal traces, etc? > *whole* chip? What's with that? [2] > > -spc (And you actually trust chips to do what they say?) > > [1] Not my footnote > > [2] Or in other words---the "components" in today's computers are bigger > than yesterday's computers. Right now, the "components" are > boards/cards and I can certainly see it being whole computers Maybe to you, but it's not happened here yet. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:39:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:39:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 20, 5 09:07:17 pm Message-ID: > (I say that and, looking at my CGA card in graphics mode, there are single-bit > errors twitching on and off -- RAM tests okay so I guess the ramdac has blown a > gasket somewhere) RAMDAC? On a CGA card? Surely you jest... More seriously, this could be a timing problem in one of the latches, etc, between the RAM and the video output connector. I don't have the schematic in front of me, but I can look it up if you're interested. No, correct that. You have the card. You have a multimeter. Stop stealing my time and trace the circuit yourself (well, that's what you told me to do about writing programs). > > capacitor in parallel with the head significantly reduced it. > > You wrote "fix" earlier... "reduce" makes more sense. It reduces the amplitude of the glitch to such a level that it no longer damages the tape. In that sense it fixes the problem (of damaged tapes when the recorder is stopped in play mode). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 19:09:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:09:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051221124254.0c7f9168@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Dec 21, 5 12:49:31 pm Message-ID: > Yes, most RLL drives can be formatted to lower capacity and used on a MFM=20 > controller, but some aren't reliable when used that way. I don't know which= > =20 > are. How can this be? With this sort of disk interface, the critical thing is the timing between given edges (say rising edges) of the pulses on the data line (the pulse width is not generally important). And I was under the impressing that the set of times possible for the MFM interface was a subset of the times for the RLL interface. And that a pulse stream from the MFM interface was a possible pulse stream (albeit with a different meaning) from the RLL interface too. Sicne these ST506/ST412 drives are dumb devices (they don't try to interpret the data pulses, they just record them and reproduce them), I don't see how a drive can do RLL but not MFM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:43:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:43:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 20, 5 11:53:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > > This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. > > Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on those cards for? > Is one of those supposed to be a composite output? The IBM CGA card has one RCA socket (in the UK, we called it a 'phono socket', BTW). It is composite NTSC video. Stnadard signal level, etc. The IBM EGA card has 2 such sockets. Both are essentially unconnected. The outers are connected to logic ground, the inners go to pins on the 'feature connector' only. I actually added a little daughterboard to an EGA card years ago (a couple of TTL chips, a few discretes) to make composite mono video available on one of the RCA sockets, to drive a greenscreen composite monitor. Remember that the EGA card can do US TV (==CGA) rates. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 21 18:44:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:44:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 20, 5 09:03:46 pm Message-ID: > Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT TWO. > EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA boards that have a > color composite and a B&W composite jack. Clone CGA cards with no RCA sockets sometimes put the composite signal on pin 7 of the DE9 connector (this is a no-connect on the iBM card). Worth checking there anyway. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 19:23:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 17:23:19 -0800 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512211723190924.062350C6@10.0.0.252> On 12/21/2005 at 7:02 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >As already answered in an earlier post, it depends on the card. Some EGA >cards >produce identical signals down both jacks; others produce color on one and >mono >on the other. AFAIK, on the original EGA, the answer is "they go to the expansion connector". No signals at all; NC, unless there's some sort of EGA expansion interface installed, such as a genlock board, in which case one is video in and the other is video out. On the IBM schematics, they're just labeled "EXT VIDEO" and "VIDEO". Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 20:03:37 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:03:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051221175934.S6352@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT TWO. > > EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA boards that have a > > color composite and a B&W composite jack. > Clone CGA cards with no RCA sockets sometimes put the composite signal on > pin 7 of the DE9 connector (this is a no-connect on the iBM card). Worth > checking there anyway. I had a Plantronics CGA double card that claimed to be able to do 640 x 400 as an added mode. It did not have an RCA jack, but it did have the 4 pin berg, one pin of which is composite. Does the "Portable PC" connect its video to the RCA jack, or to the 4 pn berg? (Compaq's CGA and EGA have a 2 x 5 or 2 x 6 dual row set of pins near the center of the board that they use to drive the EGA capable monitor that is built in) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 20:07:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:07:45 -0800 Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> On 12/22/2005 at 1:09 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Sicne these ST506/ST412 drives are dumb devices (they don't try to >interpret the data pulses, they just record them and reproduce them), I >don't see how a drive can do RLL but not MFM. Just so--in my experience there were drives without sufficient headroom to do MFM but not RLL, but not the reverse. And some drives could handle RLL 2,5 but not RLL 3,7. Some manufacturers designated certain drive models as "RLL capable". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 20:23:26 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:23:26 -0800 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility In-Reply-To: <200512181349440078.385045D0@10.0.0.252> References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> <200512181349440078.385045D0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512211823260635.065A593C@10.0.0.252> >On 12/18/2005 at 12:05 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > >>I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an >>"Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried >>the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. I didn't find a C&T 386SX setup diskette, but I did find a manual for a 386sx mobo that used the C&T setup with an AMI BIOS. Ctrl+Alt+S was the keystroke to get you into the setup screens. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 21 20:22:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:22:46 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051221212246.4fe3ac44.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:02:06 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > >>Original IBM CGA has ONE RCA jack (for composite video), NOT > >>TWO. EGA often has two, and there are some aftermarket CGA > >>boards that have a color composite and a B&W composite jack. > > > > That begs the question of what the two RCA jacks on the EGA > > card are for. I know that the one on the CGA card provides > > composite video. > > As already answered in an earlier post, it depends on the card. > Some EGA cards produce identical signals down both jacks; > others produce color on one and mono on the other. > -- What sort of signal? Surely not composite video. EGA resolution isn't composite video. I was talking specifically about the IBM EGA card, not all the clone stuff. It's been years since I looked, but I think it's not explained anywhere common. ----- ----- There. I dug into a dusty bookshelf and answered it for myself, and will share: I have the IBM Technical Reference Manual set for the IBM 5531 Industrial Computer. This machine was a rack-mount case system that used all the 'stock' PC-XT cards and peripherals, and the techref has docs for the XT generation product line, including schematics for ALL the later adapter cards, i.e. MDA, CGA, EGA video, the hard and floppy adapters, BiSync, SDLC, Data Acquisition, GBIB card, etc. The EGA Card section even has the ASM source code for the BIOS extension on the EGA card. Looking at the schematic for the EGA card, it appears the two 'RCA' connectors on the backconnector are only connected to pins 4 and 5 of J4, labeled the 'Feature Connector.' This 'feature connector' brings out all of the relevant video connectons from the board to some unspecified additional board. The two RCA jacks are labeled 'J2 Ext Video' and 'J1 Video Jack.' However, according to the schematic, they're just wires going to pins on J4, so whatever external circuitry the 'feature connector' goes to does whatever mix is necessary. There is a text section that describes in detail what each signal on the 'Feature Connector' is but no mention of what would plug into it. This is interesting. Does anybody know more about the Feature Connector and it's uses? Tony? --- (The Industrial Computer Technical Reference even has schematic diagrams for five different IBM floppy drives and the 10MB and 20MB hard drives. And for the Monochrome, PC Portable, CGA and EGA monitors. Alas, no schematic for the Power Supply.) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Dec 21 21:13:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:13:15 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A8AEE9.4060102@deltasoft.com> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20051221211315.43c7ce8c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:24 PM 12/20/05 -0800, Gene wrote: >> I've had enough, and I don't need this crap. > >Dave, sorry to see this come to pass. > >To the "others", thanks a lot you bunch of miserable asshats. Any other >good projects you wanna fuck up while you're on a roll? > >What is it about you guys that makes you feel you can denigrate someone >for the decisions they make about their own property? All you people do >is stand around and bitch like a bunch of old women. If you don't like >how someone is handling their own software, keep yer damn yap shut and >build a better version! If you can't, keep yer damn yap shut anyway! You tell 'em, Gene! I've been reading this crap for the last two days. What a bunch of Open-Source Nazis. Dave was doing something worthwhile for this hobby but you guys weren't happy with it and now you've ruined it for everyone. Dave wrote ImageDisk himself and it was his to license or not license as he saw fit and no one else had the right to demand how, when or if he released the source or what features he included or didn't include. If you want Open Source then get off your sorry asses and go write it yourselves. Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 21 20:26:34 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:26:34 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled References: Message-ID: <007d01c6069f$213e1000$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:26 PM Subject: Re: ImageDisk project is canceled > > I always thought that if there really is demand for a utility then atleast a > > token amount of money should be charged for that utility. You will find that > > people who claim to need changes to the utility but are unwilling to pay a > > I think you're comparing Apples and IBMs here :-). It is one thing to > expect _you_ to make changes to your program (and that arguably should be > charged for), it's another to want to make those changes themselves... > > > few bucks for a new revision should just be ignored, they remind me of > > friends who keep taking up your personal time fixing their computers as long > > Are you seriously suggesting you think that the Internet would be better > if everything was charged for? No free downloads of old manuals like on > bitsavers, for example (somebody spent time scanning those, converting > them to pdf, etc). No free schematics on hpmuseum.net (I spent hundreds, > no make that thousands. of hours drawing those out), etc. > I was refering to new work done for people other then yourself. If you made something for personal use and others wanted to use it it would most likely need cleaning up, documenting, a better user interface, etc so somebody could understand it and use it. The added time involved to make a project presentable and for doing customer support and user modifications is a small fee would be usefull. As far as free downloads on the internet I have mixed feelings about that. If you are working on old non comercial equipment and need manuals that are no longer available commercialy then yes, a free download would be handy. But with the legal system the way it is today is offering that manual for downloading legal or not? If I went to the effort of manualy scanning in the manual for Desqview/X 2.0 into a PDF and distributed it on the net for free do I have the legal right to do it even if it is not supported or sold anymore? I would think if some enterprising person could get around the lagalities of providing PDF manuals for old no longer commercial equipment for say $.25 a download he could probably make a business model out of it. Think about somebody buying one of those book scanners somebody had linked to here a while ago and making quick, precise, and non labor intensive PDF's and creating a large library that would have enough sales at even $.25 to create a nice profit over time and still allow everybody to enjoy their hobby. Charging a small fee is not evil, spreading things for free is not necessarily good either. > I have written a few (OK, very few) utilities, and have never charged for > any of them, and nor do I ever intend to. > > > very little if any for the software that makes the machine usable. You do > > not owe the world the source code for your hard work period. If people want > > to use some of your code they should pay for it or write their own. Sales > > Next time somebody here asks for a sevice manual, or a schematic, or a > pinout, or... I will not bother to look it up for them. I will simply > point out that you can deduce the necessary information from the machine, > from data sheets available on the net (and you'll have to go and find > them) and a few hours with a mulitmeter. I won't bother pointing out > useful repair tricks, it took me time to discrover them, why should I > help you. > All I said was that the source code was not owed to anyone. If you wrote a utility that I wanted to see the code you are under no obligation to turn it over when I demand it. If you wanted to give it out (or not) it is up to you. If you have the documentation handy and wanted to look it up and do the person a favor then fine, I have done that for others when I have something that isn't a 5 second google search. Sometimes it is better to give somebody the directions to find what they want then to just give them the direct answer (atleast for something they need to better understand so they don't hurt themselves). > > should be a yardstick to measure if continuing the development of the > > utility is worth the effort. Sooner or later the people who needed the > > utility will already have it, at that point you can quit developing and > > destroy the source code or release it in any manner you like. Why do I get > > the feeling that people who push really hard for open sourcing just want to > > use your knowledge and time for free in their projects? > > So now you're claiming that all users of linux and *BSD are plagarists. Where did I say all? I mentioned people who realy push hard for opensource and that was just a feeling and not a stated fact. If I hounded a plumber to opensource all his knowledge and tricks of the trade he learned so I could just use it as needed instead of paying him people would think I am cheap and nuts, if I do the same to a programmer then it is ok? > > Yes, I will admit I've used ideas from open-source programs in my own > programs. Yes, I will also admit that I've looked at published schematics > and thought 'hey, that's a neat trick to save a few ns of delay', and > used something similar in my own design. If the trick is significant, it > gets an acknowledgement of the form 'Using a mux to decode the signals > {foo...barr} was inspired by the DEC KT11-C schematic' > > That, IMHO, is a far cry from ripping off somebody's work. Or do you want > to re-invent the wheel every time. I think ideas should be freely spread among the masses, specific implementations should be protected by patents from copying for a reasonable amount of time and then be public domain. The whole intention of the patent system was to get the ideas out there (instead of keeping them hidden as trade secrets) and yet still protect the invention from being copied long enough for the inventor to make a profit from the invention if he could. Some of those neat little tricks you copy are the difference between competing products and sales. > > Can any programmer or electronic designer honestly claim to have never > read somebody else's code/schematics and taken ideas from it? Because I > would doubt it. > Since I have an engineering background I know everything we do today is built up on the knowledge and inventions of the people before us. Having said that we would never get anywhere if all we did was copy and paste somebody elses work and never try something slightly different. If I implement something that has an error and everybody just copies my work then they will be copying my error. > -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 21 20:28:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:28:58 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051221212246.4fe3ac44.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051220210057.X53198@shell.lmi.net> <20051221194000.0b13cb6c.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43A9FB0E.1050807@oldskool.org> <20051221212246.4fe3ac44.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051221212858.78f97181.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:22:46 -0500 Scott Stevens wrote: > This is interesting. Does anybody know more about the Feature > Connector and it's uses? Tony? > To follow up, Tony answered some of these queries below in the thread. It's still an interesting question to ask what uses were made of the 'Feature Connector' on the EGA card, of course. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 21 20:33:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:33:31 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: <012b01c605c7$ac6f3d80$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <20051221213331.28f380fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:44 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do wonder if > it's actually possible to write such a program to run under > linux or any other multi-tasking system. > Since it's possible under Linux or one of the BSD Unixes to completely compile out support for the floppy controller, it should also be possible to pull said kernel code out, and create a (super)user-mode module application out of it to do whatever you want with the disk controller. More of this sort of thing should be done, in my estimation. (my two cent opinion, I know, since I should do-it-myself). From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 21 20:51:02 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:51:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: floppy imaging Message-ID: <20051222025102.4AEEC192576@bitsavers.org> tony wrote: To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do wonder if it's actually possible to write such a program to run under linux or any other multi-tasking system. It is relatively easy to write a program to dump an image back to a physical disk. I've done similar things several times for specific disk formats (in particular TRS-80 M2/M4 and HP LIF). To do the reverse -- to imagge a disk _once the format is known_ is also easy. The problem comes with discovering the format. I've read and re-read the 8272 and 765 data sheets. From what I can see the only way to see what sectors are on the current track is to use the ReadID command. This returns the ID bytes from the next sector header to pass under the head. There is no way to automatically dump all the IDs from all the sectors from index pulse to the next index pulse (if there is, can somebody please enlighten me). -- Look at the readfloppy code in Eric's DMK library http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ It is capable of detecting sector length automagicly under Linux. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 21 21:10:17 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:10:17 -0800 Subject: GPL or BSD: What license do you prefer for the MSCP SCSI project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >List members, > I reach the point that I need to decide what license I will use when >I release my project. I myself do not have a preference. I am planning >to replace the unknown-license 53C90 sample code with linux or NetBSD >53C90 driver code. If I use the linux code, I have to release it with >GPL. If I use the NetBSD code, I am not able to release it in GPL. I >will let you guys decide, since you are the end users. To avoid >flooding the mailing list, you can send me private email if you do not >have a public message. > When I release the project, only 512 B/B CDROM and HD will be >supported. There might be a need to add support for other format >CDROMs (easy) or SCSI tapes (difficult) or other devices down the >road. Bear this in mind when you vote. I would say use whatever license suits you the best. If you aren't concerned about someone building a closed source product out of it, BSD is fine. If you do have some concerns, LGPL is a good comprimise. It allows people to link it with non-GPL code without allowing them to close the source. If you want it, and any product linked with it to be made open source, the GPL is the way to go. There are plenty of shades in between. Were I the developer in question, I would probably go with LGPL for a driver or library and full GPL for a program. I've seen too much open source work go into closed source products to use BSD license on my code anymore. But YMMV. Choose what's best for you. Eric From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 21 21:10:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:10:25 -0500 Subject: Need BIOS setup utility References: <43A5A4E8.7050603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c606a5$41330130$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: Need BIOS setup utility > I'm foozling with a portable 386 system that keeps coming up with an > "Incorrect Setting In BIOS" error. I've replaced the battery and tried > the several DOS-based CMOS utilities from Simtel, but the error persists. > > Part of the problem is that this is a Taiwanese clone and the > motherboard bears *no* manufacturer or model info. The only badging at > all is on the front, which says "LCD 386". It looks like a fairly > standard motherboard, has a Seagate ST-251 and a NewTronics DSDD 5.25" > floppy drive, 8-bit EGA (I think) graphics card with an internal > connector to a 640x240 mono LCD. The keyboard seems to be a regular AT > type, clips on the front of the case over the LCD. Dimensions are about > 12" tall, 17-18" wide, and 9" front-to-back. > > I've also never seen a system come up with BIOS messages from two > companies: > > > Phoenix 80386 ROM BIOS Version 3.06 > Copyright (c) 1985,86 Phoenix Technologies Ltd > All Rights Reserved > > CHIPS AND TECHNOLOGIES > AT/386 SYSTEM > SOFT SETUP VERSION 1.12 > > BANK 0 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY > BANK 1 - 1024K NON INTERLEAVED 256k DRAM'S, 0 WAIT STATE MEMORY > BANK 2 - DISABLED > BANK 3 - DISABLED > AT BUS CLOCK SOURCE - CLK2/2 > > > I can't find any useful info on Google about the C&T "System Soft Setup". > > My questions are, should I be trying to find a Phoenix setup utility > or a C&T util? Am I correct in thinking that's a disk-based utility, > rather than NVRAM? In other words, should I be hitting Ctrl+Alt+Ins or > something at boot? (Already tried that and all the usual suspects, no love.) > > Any help or information would be appreciated. > > > Doc The "incorrect setting in bios" could be just something simple as the BIOS expecting an external floppy drive being connected at startup and not finding it or somebody changed the ram configuration. Phoenix is the bios on the unit so you should deciphering that would let you know what options you machine has. Doing some googling and then messing with www.archive.org because the link was dead I found this: http://web.archive.org/web/20010124103500/http://ic.doma.kiev.ua/pdf/soft/setup.htm It is a system configuration setup for 286 and up systems for Phoenix Technologies and the v.4.03.01 link appears to work (it will let you download setup.com). The C&T notice is for the video card that drives the LCD display. I have a Planar Cleanscrean 486/100 portable LCD based system and it has the Chips and Technologies 65545 Chipset driving the LCD. I have the 3 Disks that support DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 95/NT(3.5?), and OS/2 2.1 so if you need drivers let me know. I believe Intel purchased C&T so more information and drivers could probably be found on Intel's site. Hope this helps. TZ From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Dec 21 21:12:14 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:12:14 -0800 Subject: GPL or BSD: What license do you prefer for the MSCP SCSI project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should also point out that if you contact the authors, you might find they are willing to give alternative licensing... Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 21:15:32 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:15:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051222025102.4AEEC192576@bitsavers.org> References: <20051222025102.4AEEC192576@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > The problem comes with discovering the format. I've read and re-read the > 8272 and 765 data sheets. From what I can see the only way to see what > sectors are on the current track is to use the ReadID command. This > returns the ID bytes from the next sector header to pass under the head. > There is no way to automatically dump all the IDs from all the sectors > from index pulse to the next index pulse (if there is, can somebody > please enlighten me). You can read multiple IDs during a revolution (200msec) If you don't get 'em all, put in a different delay. A flux transition board (CopyII option board), or a machine with a 179x can do a track read, that can be analyzed at a glance. Got Trakcess in your TRS80 M3/4 software? You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 byte, and a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers up and down to find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose numbering don't start with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such as side B of Kaypro) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 21:16:16 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:16:16 -0800 Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> References: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Interesting, My CSC Hard Drive Bible VIII indicates there are 3 different 8438 drives. My book says 8438/8438F, 32 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, 68/40 MSecond timing RLL Then there is a third 8438XT, 31 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, 68 MSecond timing XT-IDE As to the Western digital 1002A-WX1, it is an 8 bit MFM controller for two hard drives only. The default jumpers are W3, W4-2 & 3, W6-2 7 3,W8-2 & 3, S1-8 (AT mode) To format use G=C800:5 as you already know. Hope this helps. Doesn't the Model 30 have a built in disk controller that you have to disable is use an ISA disk controller? I think there is IDE on the motherboard. You might need the actual PS2 setup disks for the model 30. Is yours a 8086 or 80286 model 30? Most of the PS2 line had their own set up floppy disk. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 21 21:31:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:31:56 -0600 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202111050982.01CD7EBB@10.0.0.252> References: <43A8C6E5.10603@oldskool.org> <200512202022160453.01A0CBB7@10.0.0.252> <43A8DE04.1040004@oldskool.org> <200512202111050982.01CD7EBB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43AA1E2C.6080706@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's what I was working from. Have you tried doing a read of the display > every so often (without writing) and comparing to previous reads to see if > bits are getting picked/dropped? That would settle the question of the > RAM. I'm not sure if a read/write will find all problems. I filled RAM with a pattern that produces the flickering bits and read from it in a constant loop for over a minute, and the RAM tests out okay (even though something is clearly wrong). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Dec 21 21:37:10 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:37:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: References: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <37962.144.160.5.25.1135222630.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> > Interesting, My CSC Hard Drive Bible VIII indicates there are 3 > different 8438 drives. > My book says > > 8438/8438F, 32 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, > 68/40 MSecond timing RLL If he has one of these, then ok. > Then there is a third > 8438XT, 31 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, 68 > MSecond timing XT-IDE XT-IDE? What's that? I didn't know that there was an XT compatible IDE controller, except a few rare and expensive ones. > Doesn't the Model 30 have a built in disk controller that you have to > disable is use an ISA disk controller? I think there is IDE on the > motherboard. You might need the actual PS2 setup disks for the model > 30. Is yours a 8086 or 80286 model 30? Most of the PS2 line had their > own set up floppy disk. Good questions all. I don't see how he can proceed if he hasn't got the setup disk and figured out for sure if there's a controller on board and that he's disabled it. > Paxton From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 21:43:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:43:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <37962.144.160.5.25.1135222630.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> References: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> <37962.144.160.5.25.1135222630.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> Message-ID: <20051221194110.T6352@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Tom Peters wrote: > > 8438XT, 31 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, 68 > > MSecond timing XT-IDE > XT-IDE? What's that? I didn't know that there was an XT compatible IDE > controller, except a few rare and expensive ones. It's 8 bit IDE. At the time, they were neither rare, nor very expensive. If you waited until now to buy one, then you may be outa luck. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 21 22:03:30 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:03:30 -0800 Subject: === Miniscribe disk drive infos === In-Reply-To: <20051221194110.T6352@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512211807450191.064BFBC2@10.0.0.252> <37962.144.160.5.25.1135222630.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> <20051221194110.T6352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512212003300194.06B5F456@10.0.0.252> On 12/21/2005 at 7:43 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Tom Peters wrote: >> > 8438XT, 31 Megs formatted, 4 heads, 615 Cyl, 26 sectors, 68 >> > MSecond timing XT-IDE >> XT-IDE? What's that? I didn't know that there was an XT compatible IDE >> controller, except a few rare and expensive ones. > >It's 8 bit IDE. >At the time, they were neither rare, nor very expensive. >If you waited until now to buy one, then you may be outa luck. Sometimes called XTA; these drives could do 8 bit data transfers--i.e., they actually paid attention to IOCS16\. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Dec 21 22:06:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:06:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512211203.jBLC3cHi028234@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > I'd also be interested - especially in a KS-10. It sort of sounds like the harvest is over... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bob099 at centurytel.net Wed Dec 21 22:09:16 2005 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:09:16 -0600 Subject: Compaq Portable 386 Question Message-ID: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> I have one of the above that is giving a 102 error, meaning the system board is toast. Any suggestions on what to do? I do have a couple of Portable III's so could possible use some of the parts, but see no way to reasonable revive the beast. Next project is to revive a Wang portable(sans power supply), or maybe a DEC Rainbow (sans monitor and keyboard). Would a Decmate keyboard and monitor work with a Rainbow? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 21 22:15:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:15:58 -0700 Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> References: <20051222025102.4AEEC192576@bitsavers.org> <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43AA287E.1080605@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > >You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 byte, and >a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers up and down to >find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose numbering don't start >with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such as side B of Kaypro) > > And let on not forget about the FLEX data format ... With single density and double density on the same track for double density disks. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 21 22:17:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:17:46 -0600 Subject: flea markets & hamfests In-Reply-To: <200512211652.58161.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512211453.40575.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43A9C815.80904@oldskool.org> <200512211652.58161.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43AA28EA.4060809@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana >>Actually, I'm in SW Chicagoland, but Fort Wayne isn't close (meaning, > Fort wayne is probaby just as close for you as for me - it's a 2-2.5hr Is this: http://www.fortwaynehamfest.com/ ...the hamfest we're talking about? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 21 22:19:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq Portable 386 Question In-Reply-To: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Choctaw Bob wrote: > I have one of the above that is giving a 102 error, meaning the system > board is toast. Any suggestions on what to do? Fix it, or buy another system board ($16) http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-System-Board-for-Portable-386-w-memor-107683-001_W0QQitemZ5218895508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 21 22:41:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:41:08 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) I started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and IBM comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were some of the older good ones that are no more? From news at computercollector.com Wed Dec 21 22:50:32 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:50:32 -0500 Subject: OT: RE: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <00ad01c606b3$3ecd9190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> If anyone's interested, IDC this fall said the top drive manufacturers (in order) are Seagate, Western Digital, Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (formerly IBM), Maxtor, Toshiba, Samsung, and Fujitsu. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) I started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and IBM comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were some of the older good ones that are no more? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 21 23:13:50 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:13:50 -0500 Subject: flea markets & hamfests In-Reply-To: <43AA28EA.4060809@oldskool.org> References: <200512211652.58161.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43AA28EA.4060809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512220013.50251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jim Leonard declared on Wednesday 21 December 2005 23:17: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >>>Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana > >> > >>Actually, I'm in SW Chicagoland, but Fort Wayne isn't close > >> (meaning, > > > > Fort wayne is probaby just as close for you as for me - it's a > > 2-2.5hr > > Is this: > > http://www.fortwaynehamfest.com/ > > ...the hamfest we're talking about? Yep. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 21 23:28:09 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:28:09 -0500 Subject: flea markets & hamfests References: <200512211652.58161.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43AA28EA.4060809@oldskool.org> <200512220013.50251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <012e01c606b8$87cdfa10$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:13 AM Subject: Re: flea markets & hamfests > Jim Leonard declared on Wednesday 21 December 2005 23:17: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >>>Like the Dayton, OH "hamvention", or the Fort Wayne, Indiana > > >> > > >>Actually, I'm in SW Chicagoland, but Fort Wayne isn't close > > >> (meaning, > > > > > > Fort wayne is probaby just as close for you as for me - it's a > > > 2-2.5hr > > > > Is this: > > > > http://www.fortwaynehamfest.com/ > > > > ...the hamfest we're talking about? > > Yep. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org I went to the Dayton Hamvention back in the 1990's and purchased a few modern items like games and a whopping big new 540MB HD! While looking around in the tent city fleemarket outside I seen a few bits of Amiga gear I wish I had now. It was a decent drive from Youngstown, but it was worth going. From news at computercollector.com Wed Dec 21 23:35:41 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:35:41 -0500 Subject: Blank list messages? Message-ID: <00b501c606b9$8cc90ae0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> The past couple of days, I received a few cctalk messages which were blank... Anyone else having this problem? (XP, Outlook, etc.) If your response is just sarcastic crap about XP/Outlook, then do us all a favor and don't reply. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 21 23:44:02 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:44:02 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) I > started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and IBM > comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). > What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were > some of the older good ones that are no more? Saying IBM's drive manufacture "bit the dust" is a lot like saying that IBM is out of the PowerPC business. I've been on several IBM campuses this year that have "Hitachi" R&D facilities onsite. ;) Doc From Useddec at aol.com Wed Dec 21 23:54:46 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:54:46 EST Subject: Compaq Portable 386 Question Message-ID: <147.53a2b5df.30db99a6@aol.com> The Decmate II and lll both used the VR201 and LK201, as did the Rainbow. I have some parts available for these units. Thanks, Paul From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 22 01:27:47 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:27:47 -0700 Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? Message-ID: This place is notoriously weak in providing accurate item descriptions (and the pictures are often blurry or near useless), but the styling of this cabinet makes me think it is a DEC item. Can anyone confirm? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Dec 21 08:06:00 2005 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:06:00 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <200512202353.56191.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512211417.jBLEHerH092752@keith.ezwind.net> It is the same as the video Black sync used in TV studios to sync the cameras together. It allows multiple adaptors/monitors to operate using a single retrace timing reference.. This removes the rolling caused when televising a room full of computer monitors like you see on a news/weather set. There are some other user like video overlay that were seldom used. It can also be also used to allow mixing and switching between monitor outputs onto video tape or onto a split screen, without a time base corrector. Bob On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:53:56 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Tuesday 20 December 2005 11:45 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: >> This is an original IBM CGA, not a clone. >Speaking of such, what are the RCA jacks (two of them) on those cards for? >Is one of those supposed to be a composite output? >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From jclang at notms.net Wed Dec 21 12:57:33 2005 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:57:33 -0500 Subject: Q-18 to Q-22 backplane conversion Message-ID: <05122113573300.00900@bell> Before I put all the screws back in this thing...... I'm converting a H9273 Q-18 backplane to use a 11/23 Q-22 CPU and MSV11-LK memory. (and RQDX3 and DELQA ) >From the prints I can find ,It looks like all I have to do is bus the BDAL18 through BDAL21 lines, and add an ECO to the BDV11 that terminates the additional BDAL lines. Am I missing something? joe lang From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Wed Dec 21 17:04:23 2005 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:04:23 -0700 Subject: HP 163x LIF format Message-ID: <7d9403580512211504n3626f1a6hf325841622c5c66d@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I have been able to figure out the LIF Directory format for HP 163x floppy files. I will write up a doc for that. It is possible to mount a floppy under Linux, set some parameters for the floppy drive, and dd it out to an image file. This way one can read the floppy with the LIFUTILs out there... In the XMas break I'll work on a doc to make that info available. However, I'm also looking how a dir entry looks for for example an Inverse assembler and executable code. There is a way to load a program on these LA's and execute them. Any idea's? Anyone on the list with an Inverse assembler for these units (any will do) who can look at the directory with some simple instructions for Linux? Thanks, Maurice From Manofquest at aol.com Wed Dec 21 18:50:38 2005 From: Manofquest at aol.com (Manofquest at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:50:38 EST Subject: PDP-11/70 boards available Message-ID: <216.fefc30c.30db525e@aol.com> norm, I saw a listing that you have PDP boards What is the M8136? Cort From fzveprxe at mgm.com Thu Dec 22 11:28:56 2005 From: fzveprxe at mgm.com (Sherrie Rollins) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:28:56 -0600 Subject: FOR cctech Message-ID: <000f$0213a423$0eb7b73f@user06> Explosive St=ck Alert Doll Technology Group Inc. Global Manufacturer and Marketer of "Clean & Green" Products and Technology Solutions(Source: News 12/6/05) OTC: DTGP Price: .14 Huge PR Campaign Underway For Thursday's Trading **DTGP** Can You Make Some Fast Money On This One? RECENT NEWS: Go Read The Full Stories Right Nowii 1)Doll Technology Group Begins U.S. Trials of AquaBoost(TM) 2)Doll Technology Group Announces Strategic Partnership With Land and Sea Development to Market BlazeTamer(TM) Fire Retardant Product- Initial Purchase Order Valued at Over $1.1 Million RedBrooks Laboratory, a DTGP subsidiary, is a full service independent facility that tests, qualifies and certifies all Doll Technology Group's products and services. The laboratory is one of the few government certified facilities for the testing of fire suppression systems for the aerospace, maritime, and general industries. (Source: News 12/2/05) Watch This One Trade on Thursday Radar it Right Now.. information within this email contains 4rward l00king statements within the m eaning of Sect ion twenty seven A of the Securities Act of nin eteen thirty three and Section twenty oneB of the Secu rities Exch ange Act of nineteen thirty four. Any statements that expr ess or involve discuss ions with respect to predi ctions, exp ectations, belie fs, pl ans, proj ections, objectives, g oals, assumpt ions or future events or perf ormance are not stat ements of his torical fact and may be 4 rward 1o0king statem ents. 4 rward looking stat ements are based on e xpectations, estimates and proj ections at the time the stat ements are made that in volve a nu mber of ri sks and uncer tainties wh ich could cause actual res ults or eve nts to dif fer mate rially from those p resently anticipa ted.Today's fea tured Compa ny is not a repr ting compan y und er the SEC Act of ninteen thirty four and theref ore there is limi ted inform tion availab le on the com pany. As with many micr ocap st=cks, today's company has dis closable material items you need to consider in order to make an informed and intelligent in_vestment decision. These items include: A nominal cash position. it is an operating Company. The company is going to need financing. if that financing does not occur, the company may not be able to continue as a going concern in which case you could lose your entire in-vestment. The publisher of this newsletter does not represent that the informa tion contained in this message states all ma terial facts or does not omit a mat erial fact neces sary to make the state ments therein not misle ading. All in formation provided within this e_ mail perta ining to in- vesting, st=cks, securities must be understood as informat ion provi ded and not in vest ment advice. Remember a tho rough due dilige nce effort, inc luding a review of a comp any's filings when available, should be compl eted prior to in_ vesting. The pu blisher of this newsletter advises all read ers and subs cribers to seek adv ice from a reg istered profe ssional secu rities re presentative before deciding to trade in st=cks featured within this e_ mail. None of the mat erial within this repo rt shall be co nstrued as any kind of in_vestment advice or solicitation. Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your mony by inv esting in this st=ck. The publisher of this newsletter is not a regis tered in- vestment advis0r. Subscribers should not view information herein as legal, t x, account ing or in vestment advice. in comp liance with the Secur ities Act of nineteen thirty three, Section seventeen(b),The pu blisher of this newslet ter is cont racted to receive twel ve th0us and d0l lars from a third party, not an officer, director or affiliate shareh 0lder for the circul ation of this re port. Be aware of an inher ent conf lict of int erest resu lting from su ch compen sation due to the fact that this is a paid a vertisement and is not with out b ias.The pa rty that pa ys us has a pos ition in the st=ck they will sell at any time wi hout notice. This could have a nega tive im pact on the price of the st0ck, causing you to lose mony.Their intent ion is to sell now. All fa ctual inf ormation in this report was gathered from public sources,including but not limited to Company Press Releases. Use of the info rmation in this email cons titutes your accep tance of these terms. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 22 00:11:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 22:11:20 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> On 12/21/2005 at 11:44 PM Doc Shipley wrote: >> comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). >> What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what >were >> some of the older good ones that are no more? In 8" and smaller: Shugart, Rodime, Evotek, Disctron, Miniscribe, CDC, Priam, Prarietek, Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like was JTS. -Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 22 02:12:58 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:12:58 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Aussie PDP-11s Message-ID: Holy shit, I wish I was nearby... or could afford a shipping container and a boat! From: Christine Ricketts/Andrew Stewart Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Subject: Melbourne Australia: Possible Oversupply of PDP-11/83s, PDP-11/84s and PDP-11/70s Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:43:35 +1100 Message-ID: Calling all PDP-11 Enthusiasts in Melbourne / Australia. Currently the following information is _pure_ speculation. ====== I have no idea whether I will get the systems, how much they will cost (I'm pitching myself as cheaper and less work than hiring a dumpster or calling the computer scrap merchant) or when they will become available. End of January 2006, there _should_ be approx 15 (fifteen) PDP-11/83s to collect from Portland Victoria. I haven't seen these. Later in 2006 there _should_ be approx 20 (twenty) PDP-11/70s, approx 10 (ten) PDP-11/84s, assorted PDP-11/44s and a PDP-11/34 "..in a pear treeeee.." to be collected from the Melbourne CBD. Dozens of DZ11s, RL11 controllers and RL01 and RL02 drives. PLUS both 5.25 inch high 8 inch wide MSCP and RP06 emulating disk drives and controllers. I took a tour through the site last Tuesday. Drool, Drool! I've got a few collector mates in Melbourne but there is liable to be excess machines. Shipping systems or parts interstate or overseas takes a long time and is not cheap. If you are interested, post a reply. If you are shy, try substituting "bitbender" as the username in the above address. Regards, Andy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 22 02:14:13 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:14:13 GMT Subject: Q-18 to Q-22 backplane conversion In-Reply-To: joseph c lang "Q-18 to Q-22 backplane conversion" (Dec 21, 13:57) References: <05122113573300.00900@bell> Message-ID: <10512220814.ZM26928@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 21 2005, 13:57, joseph c lang wrote: > Before I put all the screws back in this thing...... > > I'm converting a H9273 Q-18 backplane to use a 11/23 Q-22 CPU and > MSV11-LK memory. (and RQDX3 and DELQA ) > > >From the prints I can find ,It looks like all I have to do is bus the BDAL18 > through BDAL21 lines, and add an ECO to the BDV11 that terminates > the additional BDAL lines. > > Am I missing something? That's all, as far as I can remember (done this a few times). If it came from an expansion box rather than a CPU box, or from an early 11/03, look for W1...W3 on the backplane and check that W1 is inserted and W2,W3 are not. Remember this is a "straight" backplane, so don't try to bus the CD side. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 22 02:55:10 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:55:10 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Blank list messages? In-Reply-To: <00b501c606b9$8cc90ae0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <00b501c606b9$8cc90ae0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5195.195.212.29.67.1135241710.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > The past couple of days, I received a few cctalk messages which were > blank... Anyone else having this problem? (XP, Outlook, etc.) > > If your response is just sarcastic crap about XP/Outlook, then do us all a > favor and don't reply. :) No, but three or four "stock tip" spams have come through... Gordon. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 22 03:12:38 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:12:38 -0500 Subject: Blank list messages? References: <00b501c606b9$8cc90ae0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <5195.195.212.29.67.1135241710.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001d01c606d7$dacdbf10$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:55 AM Subject: Re: Blank list messages? > > The past couple of days, I received a few cctalk messages which were > > blank... Anyone else having this problem? (XP, Outlook, etc.) > > > > If your response is just sarcastic crap about XP/Outlook, then do us all a > > favor and don't reply. :) > > No, but three or four "stock tip" spams have come through... > > Gordon. Same spam coming to me also, we never had problems with that before (atleast since I have been a member). From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Dec 22 03:29:04 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:29:04 GMT Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200512212211200240.072AFC9B at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like > was JTS. Never used a Kalok then? Those things were nasty... As far as drive failures go, I've had one Maxtor 40GB fail and a Seagate 2GB develop sticktion. Interestingly enough, the Quantum-designed drives (D740X especially) don't seem to be as failure-prone as the newer "pureblood" Maxtor drives. DiamondMax 8 slimlines are truly crap as far as reliability goes. That said, you buy cheap, you get cheap - DM8s are (or at least were) the absolute cheapest drives Maxtor made. I usually pick drives from somewhere in the middle of the capacity range, and aim to pay around ?65-?80 per drive. Notice how most of the people whining "XYZ drives are crap" are the cheapskates that went and bought the ?30 "white box" OEM drives... Cheap is generally synonymous with "crap" in the world of hard drives, IME. On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 that I pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten years old and it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. From christer at a-son.net Thu Dec 22 04:57:40 2005 From: christer at a-son.net (Christer O. Andersson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:57:40 +0100 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <007d01c6069f$213e1000$2fcfbd41@game> References: <007d01c6069f$213e1000$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <20051222105739.GB13580@bass.mejeriet.home> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 09:26:34PM -0500, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Where did I say all? I mentioned people who realy push hard for opensource > and that was just a feeling and not a stated fact. If I hounded a plumber to > opensource all his knowledge and tricks of the trade he learned so I could > just use it as needed instead of paying him people would think I am cheap > and nuts, if I do the same to a programmer then it is ok? > You are really funny. Do you think reading the source to a program turns somebody into a programmer?! OTOH, last time I paid a plumber to do some work in my house, I had to make corrections to what he did afterwards. His work was clearly visible, not hidden in a black box. I won't say this made me a plumber though... I am also pretty sure I will hire a plumber next time I need something done to my plumbing. Thing is, it is always good to be able to fix things. I think my plumber agrees, by the way. -- Christer O. Andersson Odensbacken From cctech at retro.co.za Thu Dec 22 05:25:42 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:25:42 +0200 Subject: Loral 1553 analyzer In-Reply-To: <200512201703.jBKH3VBx041839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20051222132334.02c3de40@mort.dW.co.za> Hi all I have a Loral 1553 analyzer, and I have a keyboard that, as far as I know, goes with it. What I don't have is the cable. Both the Loral and the keyboard have DB25 female connectors. So... what's the pinout, so I can make a cable? Thanks W From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Dec 22 06:23:42 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 04:23:42 -0800 Subject: Interesting memory device Message-ID: <43AA9ACE.1010302@pacbell.net> Does anyone recognize this device or know what machine it was used in? SINGER MDL L107MA-17-2100, P/ N P56-050-110 MAGNETIC DISC MEMORY http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=745204&convertTo=USD --Bill From cheri-post at web.de Thu Dec 22 06:57:57 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:57:57 +0100 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor Message-ID: <1068146210@web.de> > As far as drive failures go, I've had one Maxtor 40GB fail and a Seagate 2GB > develop sticktion. Interestingly enough, the Quantum-designed drives (D740X > especially) don't seem to be as failure-prone as the newer "pureblood" Maxtor > drives. DiamondMax 8 slimlines are truly crap as far as reliability goes. > That said, you buy cheap, you get cheap - DM8s are (or at least were) the > absolute cheapest drives Maxtor made. I usually pick drives from somewhere in > the middle of the capacity range, and aim to pay around ?65-?80 per drive. > Maxtor Diamond 9 Plus is the same crap. Not expensive, becomes VERY hot for a desktop drive and is sooo slow.... Died after a year.... > Notice how most of the people whining "XYZ drives are crap" are the > cheapskates that went and bought the ?30 "white box" OEM drives... Cheap > is generally synonymous with "crap" in the world of hard drives, IME. > > On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 that I > pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten years old and > it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. > Conner engineered good drives but unfortunately, the CFS850A and the CFS1275A series were horrible. LOTS of drives from these series died.... if I'd get one, I'd perform a backup as fast as I could. Regards, Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ XXL-Speicher, PC-Virenschutz, Spartarife & mehr: Nur im WEB.DE Club! Jetzt gratis testen! http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021130 From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Dec 22 07:09:22 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:09:22 GMT Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <1068146210@web.de> References: <1068146210@web.de> Message-ID: <011142dd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1068146210 at web.de> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Maxtor Diamond 9 Plus is the same crap. Not expensive, becomes VERY hot for a desktop drive > and is sooo slow.... > Died after a year.... My 40GB was a Diamondmax 60+. Apparently the warehouse ran out of 40GB DM60s and sent me an 80GB D740X instead. The DM60 lasted about a year, then started failing to spin up unless it was held in reset for about 20 seconds. The D740X is about three years old and still works fine. Like I said - it looks like a Quantum, right down to the assembly style and printing on the drive cover. Were it not for the Maxtor logo, I'd assume it WAS a Quantum... At the moment, I'm looking at the Seagate Barracuda 7200 series. Maybe not the fastest on the planet, but they're supposedly very reliable. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... (beep) Help, I've fallen and can't reach the beer. From Useddec at aol.com Thu Dec 22 07:40:22 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:40:22 EST Subject: PDP-11/70 boards available Message-ID: <268.2f8fd6c.30dc06c6@aol.com> Hi Cort, I believe the M8136 is a 11/70 UBC Unibus console control. Thanks, Paul From Useddec at aol.com Thu Dec 22 07:47:44 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:47:44 EST Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? Message-ID: <24.7ecd7bf0.30dc0880@aol.com> Looks like it could be a pair of H9642's. Paul From Useddec at aol.com Thu Dec 22 07:50:24 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:50:24 EST Subject: PDP-10s Message-ID: <259.4174c7e.30dc0920@aol.com> I have 15 - 20 KL ( I think) boards and maybe a few cables left. Thanks, Paul From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Dec 22 08:34:56 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:34:56 -0600 Subject: Interesting memory device In-Reply-To: <43AA9ACE.1010302@pacbell.net> References: <43AA9ACE.1010302@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20051222083408.10075a38@mail> At 06:23 AM 12/22/2005, you wrote: >Does anyone recognize this device or know what machine it was used in? >SINGER MDL L107MA-17-2100, P/ N P56-050-110 MAGNETIC DISC MEMORY >http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=745204&convertTo=USD The clue is "Librascope", this is the company that made the LGPs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librascope_LGP-30 - John From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Dec 22 10:01:09 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:01:09 -0600 Subject: flea markets & hamfests Message-ID: Actually I have found some of the best stuff when I volunteer at the local computer recycling events in Kansas City. I actually live 25 miles from Kansas City but I go to town occasionally to see the "big city". I acquired an HP86B that was dumped at the drop off 3 years ago and a Victor 1400 calculator with dust cover that was dropped off this year. We received and loaded 60000 pounds of computers, CRT's, printers and TV's between 8 AM and 2 PM one Saturday. Recently I found an Olivetti Programma 101 at the local computer recycling charity. There is a not-for-profit in Kansas City called the Surplus Exchange that collects computers from all of the local businesses and recycles them. $20 and it was mine. That's where I found the Cromemco Z-2 and dual 8" floppies I have. The really old stuff normally is sent directly to the recycler since they can only reuse some of the recent PC stuff. I am kind of the non PC guy that sorts some stuff. It's like looking for diamonds "lots of crud to sort through to find a few jewels." Mike McFadden From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 10:05:11 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:05:11 -0600 Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? In-Reply-To: <24.7ecd7bf0.30dc0880@aol.com> Message-ID: Or H9644s, which look exactly the same on the outside, but are completely different. Those are for VAXen. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Useddec at aol.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:48 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Is this a DEC cabinet? > > Looks like it could be a pair of H9642's. > > Paul From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 10:16:04 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:16:04 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: Actually, I've been a Seagate man myself ever since I bought my first hard disk. In fact, I don't own anything without a Seagate in it, even my PDP-11. One of the few companies that simply continues to be better than the rest. I'll continue to tip my hat to IBM/Hitachi drives though, those are pretty solid too in my experiences with them. Long live not-crap. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 10:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor > > With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) > I > started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and > IBM > comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). > What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what > were > some of the older good ones that are no more? > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Dec 22 10:23:55 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:23:55 -0500 Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AAD31B.40309@atarimuseum.com> Nice cabinets, look like the 4' versions, what are they asking? Curt Richard wrote: > > >This place is notoriously weak in providing accurate item descriptions >(and the pictures are often blurry or near useless), but the styling >of this cabinet makes me think it is a DEC item. > >Can anyone confirm? > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.3/209 - Release Date: 12/21/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 22 10:47:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:47:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <259.4174c7e.30dc0920@aol.com> References: <259.4174c7e.30dc0920@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8:50 AM -0500 12/22/05, Useddec at aol.com wrote: >I have 15 - 20 KL ( I think) boards and maybe a few cables left. > >Thanks, Paul There area at least 4 or 5 people/museums with KL10's in their possession. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 10:53:05 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:53:05 -0700 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <200512212211200240.072AFC9B at 10.0.0.252> > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like > > was JTS. > > Never used a Kalok then? Those things were nasty... > > As far as drive failures go, I've had one Maxtor 40GB fail and a Seagate 2GB > develop sticktion. Interestingly enough, the Quantum-designed drives (D740X > especially) don't seem to be as failure-prone as the newer "pureblood" Maxtor > drives. DiamondMax 8 slimlines are truly crap as far as reliability goes. > That said, you buy cheap, you get cheap - DM8s are (or at least were) the > absolute cheapest drives Maxtor made. I usually pick drives from somewhere in > the middle of the capacity range, and aim to pay around ?65-?80 per drive. > > Notice how most of the people whining "XYZ drives are crap" are the > cheapskates that went and bought the ?30 "white box" OEM drives... Cheap > is generally synonymous with "crap" in the world of hard drives, IME. > > On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 that I > pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten years old and > it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT > philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook > ... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. > My circa 1985 First Class Peripherals Sider 10 Meg drive still works like a champ. Cost me ~ $700. Not sure who manufactured the drive itself - I'll have to open it up and take a look when I get home tonight. I swore off Maxtor earler this year after having one of those DiamondMax junkers go south on me. And it's replacement. And the RMA Maxtor sent me... Good gods, those things get hot... - Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 22 11:04:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:04:01 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> On 12/22/2005 at 9:29 AM Philip Pemberton wrote: >In message <200512212211200240.072AFC9B at 10.0.0.252> > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like >> was JTS. > >Never used a Kalok then? Those things were nasty... It's pretty surprising how many drives I don't remember because they had such a short working life. JTS was one of the first Indian-made drives and didn't even have the industry-standard drive dimensions (was too long by about 1/2"). Seagate isn't infallible, either. I have a few of the ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. I think I still have every Conner (under 500MB) that I ever purchased. There were some bright spots in other manufacturers lines--the WD 31200 Caviar drives were a bright spot in an otherwise dim line. Lots of dim spots--the early Quantum XT-era MFM drives (e.g. 30MB) weren't bad, but the Bigfoot IDE were awful, regardless of type. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 11:08:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:08:35 +0000 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Seagate isn't infallible, either. I have a few of the > ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. I have a stack of those that came out of some EISA servers at CompuServe... they _do_ run hot. I mostly leave them powered off and only use them on machines that have a 4GB cap (like old Amigas). -ethan From news at computercollector.com Thu Dec 22 11:23:05 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:23:05 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011142dd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <002301c6071c$5f7946a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> LOL, that's because Maxtor acquired Quantum's drive business (but not its tape business) in 2000. >>> Like I said - it looks like a Quantum, right down to the assembly style and printing on the drive cover. Were it not for the Maxtor logo, I'd assume it WAS a Quantum... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:09 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In message <1068146210 at web.de> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > Maxtor Diamond 9 Plus is the same crap. Not expensive, becomes VERY > hot for a desktop drive and is sooo slow.... > Died after a year.... My 40GB was a Diamondmax 60+. Apparently the warehouse ran out of 40GB DM60s and sent me an 80GB D740X instead. The DM60 lasted about a year, then started failing to spin up unless it was held in reset for about 20 seconds. The D740X is about three years old and still works fine. Like I said - it looks like a Quantum, right down to the assembly style and printing on the drive cover. Were it not for the Maxtor logo, I'd assume it WAS a Quantum... At the moment, I'm looking at the Seagate Barracuda 7200 series. Maybe not the fastest on the planet, but they're supposedly very reliable. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... (beep) Help, I've fallen and can't reach the beer. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 22 11:20:24 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:20:24 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43AAE058.1060607@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/22/2005 at 9:29 AM Philip Pemberton wrote: > > >>In message <200512212211200240.072AFC9B at 10.0.0.252> >> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> >> >>>Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't > > like > >>>was JTS. >> >>Never used a Kalok then? Those things were nasty... > > > It's pretty surprising how many drives I don't remember because they had > such a short working life. JTS was one of the first Indian-made drives and > didn't even have the industry-standard drive dimensions (was too long by > about 1/2"). Seagate isn't infallible, either. I have a few of the > ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. I > think I still have every Conner (under 500MB) that I ever purchased. There > were some bright spots in other manufacturers lines--the WD 31200 Caviar > drives were a bright spot in an otherwise dim line. Lots of dim > spots--the early Quantum XT-era MFM drives (e.g. 30MB) weren't bad, but > the Bigfoot IDE were awful, regardless of type. I'm trying to remember what size Conner came in the Aspen Alpine AXP systems. The Alpine is a 21064 EB64+ clone with onboard NEC/Symbios 53C810, and both of mine came with a 4200RPM Conner disk. I *think* 1GB. With no other upgrades, putting in a 5400RPM Seagate got me a 20% overall performance boost. Doc From m_thompson at ids.net Thu Dec 22 11:28:28 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:28:28 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <200512211203.jBLC3cHi028234@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051222122310.03a36368@155.212.1.107> I don't have the serial numbers for a bunch of KS-10s that are in storage, including yours William. I won't be surprised if more KS and KLs show up. At 11:06 PM 12/21/2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'd also be interested - especially in a KS-10. > >It sort of sounds like the harvest is over... > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 22 11:44:07 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:44:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051222122310.03a36368@155.212.1.107> from "M Thompson" at Dec 22, 2005 12:28:28 PM Message-ID: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Michael Thompson wrote: > I don't have the serial numbers for a bunch of KS-10s that are in > storage, including yours William. I won't be surprised if more KS and > KLs show up. While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're *one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though space and power are about as important for me :^( BTW, have you ever figured out what tapes the museums collection has, that Tim doesn't have up on his site? Zane From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 22 11:47:23 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:47:23 -0700 Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:23:55 -0500. <43AAD31B.40309@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <43AAD31B.40309 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Nice cabinets, look like the 4' versions, what are they asking? Its part of a huge lot of miscellaneous stuff; I could try to find the original lot if you're interested. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 22 11:50:37 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:50:37 -0700 Subject: Is this a DEC cabinet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:23:55 -0500. <43AAD31B.40309@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <43AAD31B.40309 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Nice cabinets, look like the 4' versions, what are they asking? Found the lot. Opening bid is $50; but the lot is 18 palettes(!) at approximately 17,000 lbs in Mechanicsburg, PA. That's how it goes with govliquidation; you often see one item of interest buried in a pile of other stuff. I suppose its great for used equipment resellers, but more difficult for the hobbyist. I would also strongly advise inspecting items in person before buying, if possible. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Dec 22 11:58:11 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 17:58:11 GMT Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <002301c6071c$5f7946a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002301c6071c$5f7946a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <22825cdd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <002301c6071c$5f7946a0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > LOL, that's because Maxtor acquired Quantum's drive business (but not its > tape business) in 2000. I just find it weird.. never in a million years would I have bought a Quantum (well not after the Fireball debacle anyway), yet I ended up with a Quantum-designed drive in the end, albeit with a Maxtor badge. It isn't as old as the DeskStars I've got dotted around (there's a 20GB in my desktop, and another 15GB in the server) but it's been in use 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for the best part of three years and hasn't missed a beat yet. If Maxtor still made them, I'd buy another two - I've got a pair of HDD caddies that are just begging to have drives installed in them... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I Had A Life Once, Now I Have A Computer From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 12:04:27 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:04:27 -0700 Subject: flea markets & hamfests In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/22/05, McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > Actually I have found some of the best stuff when I volunteer at the > local computer recycling events in Kansas City. I actually live 25 > miles from Kansas City but I go to town occasionally to see the "big > city". > > I acquired an HP86B that was dumped at the drop off 3 years ago and a > Victor 1400 calculator with dust cover that was dropped off this year. > We received and loaded 60000 pounds of computers, CRT's, printers and > TV's between 8 AM and 2 PM one Saturday. > > Recently I found an Olivetti Programma 101 at the local computer > recycling charity. There is a not-for-profit in Kansas City called the > Surplus Exchange that collects computers from all of the local > businesses and recycles them. $20 and it was mine. That's where I > found the Cromemco Z-2 and dual 8" floppies I have. > > The really old stuff normally is sent directly to the recycler since > they can only reuse some of the recent PC stuff. I am kind of the non > PC guy that sorts some stuff. > > It's like looking for diamonds "lots of crud to sort through to find a > few jewels." > > Mike McFadden > > Hmm. Have you been to the Surplus Exchange recently? When I was at KansasFest this past July, some of us piled into the car and headed down there - they had just moved into their new location on Santa Fe. (Finding the new place, I recall, became quite the adventure). All they had were Pentiums, the odd Mac, and associated peripherals; we were told that the "eclectic" stuff was gone and wouldn't be coming back... - Mike From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Dec 22 12:10:00 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:10:00 -0000 Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001401c60722$ee20fe60$5b01a8c0@pc1> Fred Cisin wrote: > You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 > byte, and a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers > up and down to find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose > numbering don't start with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such > as side B of Kaypro) That sounds like it would tell you the sector size and the sector numbers, but I read Tony's question as meaning "how can I tell that immediately after the index hole there is sector #1, followed by sector #2 etc." i.e. how can you determine the sector layout? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 22 12:19:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:19:41 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Dec 2005 21:33:31 EST." <20051221213331.28f380fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512221819.jBMIJfTx025169@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Stevens wrote: >> >Since it's possible under Linux or one of the BSD Unixes to >completely compile out support for the floppy controller, it >should also be possible to pull said kernel code out, and create a >(super)user-mode module application out of it to do whatever you >want with the disk controller. You don't even have to compile out the floppy driver - just don't open it. You should be able to mmap any memory based registers into userland and you can certainly do io instructions as root. As long as there are no critical timing issues, and you don't need interrupts it's not hard. I've done it a lot, actually. It's often much easier to do early driver work from userland and test assumptions, etc... never concidered talking to the floppy controller, however. Are we just talking 3 & 5" floppies here? hmm.... If I ever get around to putting one of these 8" floppies on a pc I may try that. Might be a good way to kill 3-4 days :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 22 12:30:20 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:30:20 -0800 Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <001401c60722$ee20fe60$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001401c60722$ee20fe60$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200512221030200869.09CF94CE@10.0.0.252> On 12/22/2005 at 6:10 PM a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >That sounds like it would tell you the sector size and the sector >numbers, but I read Tony's question as meaning "how can I tell >that immediately after the index hole there is sector #1, >followed by sector #2 etc." i.e. how can you determine the >sector layout? Easy - first do a read of a non-existent sector--on a 765, the operation will time out after seeing the index hole go around twice. So, now you know that you're positioned right at the index hole (actually the leading edge). Issue a bunch of Read IDs until you get the same ID twice. Do the whole thing again to make sure. What this won't get you are (a) sectors with no IDAM and (b) it won't tell you if you're missing a sector (lost in the PLL sync up "blind spot") and (c) if the same sector number occurs twice on the track. But it's good enough for casual hobbyist-type work. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 22 12:37:15 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:37:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:28:28 EST." <6.2.3.4.0.20051222122310.03a36368@155.212.1.107> Message-ID: <200512221837.jBMIbF1G030540@mwave.heeltoe.com> M Thompson wrote: >I don't have the serial numbers for a bunch of KS-10s that are in >storage, including yours William. I won't be surprised if more KS and >KLs show up. cold storage? any chance any of them will "thaw"? :-) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 22 12:39:58 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:39:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Dec 2005 09:44:07 PST." <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200512221839.jBMIdxv3030761@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're >*one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though >space and power are about as important for me :^( I'm assuming one could run a KS-10 with a minimal unibus and say, kludge up an RP06 style disk interface. I know that's a bit of an arm wave, but I thought a KS-10 would fit in a single wide rack. It's just the disks that were huge. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 12:57:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:57:35 +0000 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221839.jBMIdxv3030761@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> <200512221839.jBMIdxv3030761@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > >While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're > >*one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though > >space and power are about as important for me :^( > > I'm assuming one could run a KS-10 with a minimal unibus and say, kludge > up an RP06 style disk interface. An interesting thought, but weren't the RP disks formatted to 18-bit words when used on 36-bit hosts? If one kludged up an interface with some smarts, perhaps one could format a SCSI disk to something other than 512 8-bit-bytes per sector. The RP20(?) emulator could then request a larger block, then repackage it and feed it up to the KS10 as 36-bit words. How did Systems Concepts do it? I know they have differential SCSI interfaces and drives, but I have no clue about the internals? -ethan (who doesn't own any 36-bit hardware, but enjoys running TOPS-20 on klh10) From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 22 13:26:48 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:26:48 -0800 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> <200512221839.jBMIdxv3030761@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1135279608.8796.20.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 18:57 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/22/05, Brad Parker wrote: > > > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > > >While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're > > >*one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though > > >space and power are about as important for me :^( > > > > I'm assuming one could run a KS-10 with a minimal unibus and say, kludge > > up an RP06 style disk interface. > > An interesting thought, but weren't the RP disks formatted to 18-bit > words when used on 36-bit hosts? If one kludged up an interface with > some smarts, perhaps one could format a SCSI disk to something other > than 512 8-bit-bytes per sector. The RP20(?) emulator could then > request a larger block, then repackage it and feed it up to the KS10 > as 36-bit words. > I'm working on a generic disk emulator. It started out as a massbus device emulator but once I got into the design, it seemed that it would be pretty easy to substitute a "unibus" personality in place of the massbus interface and be able to emulate any unibus disk controller as well. For massbus, you'll be able to hook it up to an existing massbus controller (RH11, RH70, RH20) and it'll look like the appropriate devices (it also provides for dual ported drives). When used for unibus, take a BC11A cable and run it over to the emulator. The emulator will emulate an entire "string" of 8 drives. An IDE disk will be used for the actual storage. It uses a 520MHz XScale CPU for the "smarts" (probably overkill but I'd really hate to get close and realize I'm out of CPU). It'll have ethernet to allow for loading/saving disk images (which will be compatible with the various emulators). This is a fairly complex project and I'm just starting on the prototype. The biggest problem has been how to deal with the surface mount components so that the "average" person can build one up if they wish. There *will* be multiple PCB's. I'm trying to keep it somewhat modular (CPU complex board, drive emulation logic, massbus I/F, unibus I/F). I haven't worked up the packaging yet (I want to get at least the prototype working first). I started this for my own KL10 and 11/70s as the RP06s are big and somewhat unreliable (and certified media is $$$'s). It won't be particularly inexpensive (I expect it to be in the range between 1-2 certified RP06 packs...$800-$1500). Is anyone else interested in something like this? -- TTFN - Guy From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 22 13:24:41 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:24:41 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200512221424.41690.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 04:29 am, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Notice how most of the people whining "XYZ drives are crap" are the > cheapskates that went and bought the ?30 "white box" OEM drives... Cheap > is generally synonymous with "crap" in the world of hard drives, IME. People who complain about one specific brand are usually those folks that have had *one* instance of that brand fail on them, which wasn't backed up... > On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 that I > pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten years old and > it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. I've got a few kicking around here. I've had one of them fail on me, was during a thunderstorm that did all sorts of interesting things here. As it turned out, the machine that it was in somehow was not plugged into a surge suppressor, by contrast with the other four that were running here 24/7. It was a 386 box that was my firewall/router, and the drive in question was an 80M (!) drive. I've since replaced that machine with a 486dx2/66 and a somewhat larger drive, the software in question being a minimal install of Slackware that I ripped all sorts of stuff out of and configured. Still going... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 22 13:46:33 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:46:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221839.jBMIdxv3030761@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Dec 22, 2005 01:39:58 PM Message-ID: <200512221946.jBMJkX39030811@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm assuming one could run a KS-10 with a minimal unibus and say, kludge > up an RP06 style disk interface. I know that's a bit of an arm wave, > but I thought a KS-10 would fit in a single wide rack. It's just the > disks that were huge. > > -brad > The disks have to be for 36-bit systems, so not just any old drive of the models that were supported will work. I don't remember how much of this is a hardware, and how much of it is a formating difference. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 22 13:51:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <1135279608.8796.20.camel@linux.site> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Dec 22, 2005 11:26:48 AM Message-ID: <200512221951.jBMJpHHG031014@onyx.spiritone.com> > I started this for my own KL10 and 11/70s as the RP06s are big and > somewhat unreliable (and certified media is $$$'s). It won't be > particularly inexpensive (I expect it to be in the range between 1-2 > certified RP06 packs...$800-$1500). > > Is anyone else interested in something like this? This is seriously cool! I can think of at least a couple people that will probably be interested, as the reliability of the drives are becoming a serious problem. Plus I think in a couple cases, there are people with KL10's, but no drives. If I had a machine that could use it, I know I'd be interested, but as it stands, I don't have a need for one :^( Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 22 14:21:36 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:21:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:57:35 GMT." Message-ID: <200512222021.jBMKLaUe002663@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > >An interesting thought, but weren't the RP disks formatted to 18-bit >words when used on 36-bit hosts? If one kludged up an interface with >some smarts, perhaps one could format a SCSI disk to something other >than 512 8-bit-bytes per sector. The RP20(?) emulator could then >request a larger block, then repackage it and feed it up to the KS10 >as 36-bit words. That's the idea. As I recall Eric Smith understood this - we emailed once and he mentioned supporting a 10 on unibus. I don't remember the details but I'm sure he know. (I'll dredge up the email) -brad >(who doesn't own any 36-bit hardware, but enjoys running TOPS-20 on klh10) always the difficult one, I've been enjoying ITS on klh10 :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 22 14:55:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:55:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512222021.jBMKLaUe002663@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Dec 22, 2005 03:21:36 PM Message-ID: <200512222055.jBMKtKIZ000372@onyx.spiritone.com> > >An interesting thought, but weren't the RP disks formatted to 18-bit > >words when used on 36-bit hosts? If one kludged up an interface with > >some smarts, perhaps one could format a SCSI disk to something other > >than 512 8-bit-bytes per sector. The RP20(?) emulator could then > >request a larger block, then repackage it and feed it up to the KS10 > >as 36-bit words. > > That's the idea. As I recall Eric Smith understood this - we emailed > once and he mentioned supporting a 10 on unibus. I don't remember the > details but I'm sure he know. (I'll dredge up the email) > > -brad Mike Ross might be a real good source of information, as I recall he's been researching using a modern Disk solution that he has (minus the required software). Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 14:58:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 12:58:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051222125732.Q47767@shell.lmi.net> > > ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a stack of those that came out of some EISA servers at > CompuServe... they _do_ run hot. I mostly leave them powered off and > only use them on machines that have a 4GB cap (like old Amigas). How well would they work in a cold environment? From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Dec 22 15:16:16 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:16:16 -0500 Subject: WTD Tandon 603s Hard Drive for Commodore CBM D9090 external HDD Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20051222161159.03b88c68@mail.degnanco.net> I am trying to restore a CBM D9090 external hard drive. The controller cards seem OK, but I get a "? bad disk" error when attempting to initialize (using a B128). If no Tandon 603s is available, does anyone have experience and success replacing the original stock Tandon 603s drive with another drive? I have read differing opinions about what drives are compatible with the D9090. I tried a working ST 412, but I think that this is too new. Did not work. The drive I believe has to be 7.5 to 10 MB with even heads. Bill D From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 22 15:20:05 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:20:05 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43A70F46.9000308@yahoo.co.uk> <43A804D7.9070200@gjcp.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:19 am, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>Old Hammond organs often have a wander light mounted inside, for working >>on them. > > > Oh? I've worked on lots of those, and don't remember anything of the sort... > I've seen it in a couple of them, and the guy I used to know who did a lot of organ repairs said it was pretty common. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 15:33:42 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:33:42 +0000 Subject: WTD Tandon 603s Hard Drive for Commodore CBM D9090 external HDD In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20051222161159.03b88c68@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20051222161159.03b88c68@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, B. Degnan wrote: > I am trying to restore a CBM D9090 external hard drive. The controller > cards seem OK, but I get a "? bad disk" error when attempting to > initialize (using a B128). Given the age and fragility of the TM602/TM603 drives, that's not surprising. If you are hearing the drive spin up (no stiction), one thing that failed on one of my Tandon drives from a D90x0 was the optical track zero sensor. I had it professionally repaired over 10 years ago for $75 including new media, back when repairing small drives was practical. In the long term, however, a new mechanism is probably your best bet. > If no Tandon 603s is available, does anyone > have experience and success replacing the original stock Tandon 603s drive > with another drive? Yes. > I have read differing opinions about what drives are > compatible with the D9090. I tried a working ST 412, but I think that this > is too new. Did not work. The drive I believe has to be 7.5 to 10 MB with > even heads. My experience is that if you strap the D90x0 board to expect 4 heads, you can use an ST-225. I _think_an ST-251 may work for a 6-head drive. Without tweaking the firmware on the "DOS Board", you are still limited in how many cylinders the drive looks for - so the capacity will not change from 5MB or 7.5MB (4 heads/6 heads). The good news is that ST225 drives were uber-plentiful back in the day, so it still shouldn't be difficult to find, for an ST506/ST412-interface drive. I save every ST-225 and ST-251 that happens past, largely for things like the D90x0 and DECmate IIs, etc. Give a Seagate drive a try - it should work for you. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 15:35:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 21:35:30 +0000 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <20051222125732.Q47767@shell.lmi.net> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> <20051222125732.Q47767@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I have a stack of those that came out of some EISA servers at > > CompuServe... they _do_ run hot. > > How well would they work in a cold environment? Like a machine room? Probably better than my non-airconditioned back bedroom. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 15:53:18 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:53:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512220904010510.09808D23@10.0.0.252> <20051222125732.Q47767@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20051222135025.F47767@shell.lmi.net> > > > > ST15230WC 4GB 3.5" SCSI drives. Miserable, hot-at-as-a-pistol drives. > > How well would they work in a cold environment? On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Like a machine room? Probably better than my non-airconditioned back bedroom. I was thinking more like your other work site: > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Nov-2003 22:30 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37 F (-38.4 C) Windchill -66 F (-54.4 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 034 Barometer 676.6 mb (10756 ft) > Ethan.Dicks at amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 16:03:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:03:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <001401c60722$ee20fe60$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001401c60722$ee20fe60$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <20051222135835.V47767@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > That sounds like it would tell you the sector size and the sector > numbers, but I read Tony's question as meaning "how can I tell > that immediately after the index hole there is sector #1, > followed by sector #2 etc." i.e. how can you determine the > sector layout? That's what you need to be able to read or write a formatted disk. While you COULD determine the sector layout through sector reads and careful attention to time intervals, the practical way is to use the 765's "read ID" command, or use alternate hardware to read a raw track. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:10:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 163x LIF format In-Reply-To: <7d9403580512211504n3626f1a6hf325841622c5c66d@mail.gmail.com> from "maurice smulders" at Dec 21, 5 04:04:23 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > > I have been able to figure out the LIF Directory format for HP 163x floppy > files. I will write up a doc for that. It is possible to mount a floppy > under Linux, set some parameters for the floppy drive, and dd it out to an > image file. This way one can read the floppy with the LIFUTILs out there... Have you looked at my LIF Utilities for Linux (available, I hope, from http://www.hpcc.org/, if not can send you a .tar.gz file). There might be some useful stuff there relating to reading directory entries, etc. I wrote this to handle the files used on the handheld calculators, and therefore there won't be explicit types defined for other files. But it's faitly clear how to add them. Ask me if you need some help. > In the XMas break I'll work on a doc to make that info available. > > However, I'm also looking how a dir entry looks for for example an Inverse > assembler and executable code. There is a way to load a program on these > LA's and execute them. I am sure yoy know this, but the things you need to find out are the 16 bit file type code and the contents of the 4 type-dependant bytes. The latter could depend on the file size, or the execution entry point, or... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:17:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:17:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051221212246.4fe3ac44.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 21, 5 09:22:46 pm Message-ID: > What sort of signal? Surely not composite video. EGA resolution > isn't composite video. I was talking specifically about the IBM You can have composite video for any scan rates, although finding a monitor that works with it could be 'interesting'. However, The IBM EGA card (and I would assume the clones) can drive a CGA monitor at the standard (TV) rates. No, you don't get the higher resolution modes, but IIRC you can have more colours than on a CGA card. For that matter, the EGA card will also drive an MDA monitor at the MDA rates, and has a graphics mode that's not the same as hercules... But on an IBM EGA card (as I, and others, have pointed out), these connectors essentially go nowhere, just to pins on the feature connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:31:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:31:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <007d01c6069f$213e1000$2fcfbd41@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Dec 21, 5 09:26:34 pm Message-ID: > > Are you seriously suggesting you think that the Internet would be better > > if everything was charged for? No free downloads of old manuals like on > > bitsavers, for example (somebody spent time scanning those, converting > > them to pdf, etc). No free schematics on hpmuseum.net (I spent hundreds, > > no make that thousands. of hours drawing those out), etc. > > > > I was refering to new work done for people other then yourself. If you made I suspect (without proof) that much of the free stuff on the net is there because the author wanted it for himself first and thoguht it might be of use to others. That is certainly true of those few programs I've released. I needed to do that job myself, and thought the solution might help others. > As far as free downloads on the internet I have mixed feelings about that. > If you are working on old non comercial equipment and need manuals that are > no longer available commercialy then yes, a free download would be handy. > But with the legal system the way it is today is offering that manual for > downloading legal or not? If I went to the effort of manualy scanning in the I am pretty sure that in a lot of cases it is illegal. Some manufactuers, though, have given permission for manuals for their obsolete products to be given out in this way. > manual for Desqview/X 2.0 into a PDF and distributed it on the net for free > do I have the legal right to do it even if it is not supported or sold > anymore? I would think if some enterprising person could get around the > lagalities of providing PDF manuals for old no longer commercial equipment > for say $.25 a download he could probably make a business model out of it. There are companyies who sell copies of radio/tv/etc service manuals. I am not sure if they get permission to do so (I assume they must do), but they certainly exist. I've dealt with a few. I am happy to pay for a printed manual, but because a pdf file is a lot less use to me, I will not pay for that. If somebody makes a pdf available for free (bitsavers, hpmuseum.net), I will find a way to read it if I think it's useful. > > Next time somebody here asks for a sevice manual, or a schematic, or a > > pinout, or... I will not bother to look it up for them. I will simply > > point out that you can deduce the necessary information from the machine, > > from data sheets available on the net (and you'll have to go and find > > them) and a few hours with a mulitmeter. I won't bother pointing out > > useful repair tricks, it took me time to discrover them, why should I > > help you. > > > > All I said was that the source code was not owed to anyone. If you wrote a True enough. > utility that I wanted to see the code you are under no obligation to turn it > over when I demand it. If you wanted to give it out (or not) it is up to > you. If you have the documentation handy and wanted to look it up and do the > person a favor then fine, I have done that for others when I have something > that isn't a 5 second google search. Sometimes it is better to give somebody > the directions to find what they want then to just give them the direct Oh sure. No problem in posting a URL to find whatever they're looking for, or to say the information is in a particular well-known book, or that you really need to understand more about before tackling > > So now you're claiming that all users of linux and *BSD are plagarists. > > Where did I say all? I mentioned people who realy push hard for opensource So are you now accusing me of plagarism? > and that was just a feeling and not a stated fact. If I hounded a plumber to > opensource all his knowledge and tricks of the trade he learned so I could > just use it as needed instead of paying him people would think I am cheap > and nuts, if I do the same to a programmer then it is ok? Get real! Nobody is going to get the source code to Windows by phoning Microsoft, and nobody expects to. But to carry on your analogy, if you employed a plumber, would you think it was reasonable to ask him why he did a certain thing? Or is that unacceptable too. Oh you see me fixing an HP9845. You notice that after removing the top cover, I stick voltmeter probes through holes in the PSU cover before dismanting it further. Do you think it's reasonable to ask me why I did that? Is it reasonable to ask me what I am measuring and why when I apply a logicdart to your non-working microcomputer? Incidentally, I would be happy to explain either of those actions to you. > I think ideas should be freely spread among the masses, specific > implementations should be protected by patents from copying for a reasonable > amount of time and then be public domain. The whole intention of the patent And yet closed-source keeps those ideas hidden for a lot longer... > system was to get the ideas out there (instead of keeping them hidden as > trade secrets) and yet still protect the invention from being copied long > enough for the inventor to make a profit from the invention if he could. > Some of those neat little tricks you copy are the difference between > competing products and sales. Of course. But in the example I gave and deleted, I don't think anyone would reasonably claim that the control board for an image sensor was in any way a competing product to the memory management unit from a minicomputer produced 20 years earlier. > > Can any programmer or electronic designer honestly claim to have never > > read somebody else's code/schematics and taken ideas from it? Because I > > would doubt it. > > > > Since I have an engineering background I know everything we do today is > built up on the knowledge and inventions of the people before us. Having > said that we would never get anywhere if all we did was copy and paste > somebody elses work and never try something slightly different. If I Of course not. As I kaep on saying, I like to see source code and schematics to get ideas. Not to do large-scale copying of other people's work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:32:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:32:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051221212858.78f97181.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 21, 5 09:28:58 pm Message-ID: > thread. It's still an interesting question to ask what uses were > made of the 'Feature Connector' on the EGA card, of course. > I can't remember exactly what signals are on the feature connector (I can get the TechRef if you're seriously interested), but IIRC it could be used to connect things like PAL/NTSC encoders, possibly genlock-type boards etc. I am not aware of any commercial add-ons that used it, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:36:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:36:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <20051221213331.28f380fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 21, 5 09:33:31 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:44 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do wonder if > > it's actually possible to write such a program to run under > > linux or any other multi-tasking system. > > > Since it's possible under Linux or one of the BSD Unixes to > completely compile out support for the floppy controller, it > should also be possible to pull said kernel code out, and create a > (super)user-mode module application out of it to do whatever you > want with the disk controller. More of this sort of thing should > be done, in my estimation. (my two cent opinion, I know, since I > should do-it-myself). You are, IMHO, missing the point. Under linux, you have an ioctl() call that lets you send any ocmmand bytes you like to the FDC. You can therefore get that chip to do anything that it's capable of. And that call takes care of setting up the DMA controller if you need it, making sure the DMA buffer doesn't cross a page boundary, and all the other nasty little details. Actually sending a ReadID command is not a problem. The problem is that the ReadID command reads the next sector ID to come round to the head. The only way (that I can see) to make sure you've not missed any is to keep on sending ReadID commands (and getting the results) until you get the same ID again that you got from the first one -- i.e. the disk has gone round once. The problem on a multi-tasking OS is that your task might be switched out half-way though this. You might therefore miss a sector ID entirely. And how ever many times you repeat it, you can never be sure you've not been unlucky and missed the same one each time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:13:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:13:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: <20051221175934.S6352@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 21, 5 06:03:37 pm Message-ID: > Does the "Portable PC" connect its video to the RCA jack, or to the 4 pn > berg? Assuming yoy mean the 5155, it uses the Berg connector inside. 2 of the pins (ground and composite output) go to a twisted pair cable which goes to the monitor. The repaining pin on the Berg header is +12V IIRC. This is not used in the Portable PC (the monitor is connected directly to the PSU). I always assumed this was a handy power feed for an RF modulator should you want to use one with a CGA card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:37:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051222025102.4AEEC192576@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 21, 5 06:51:02 pm Message-ID: > Look at the readfloppy code in Eric's DMK library > http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ > > It is capable of detecting sector length automagicly under Linux. Thank yuo. I've downloaded that .tar.gx and will take a look. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:41:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:41:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 21, 5 07:15:32 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 21 Dec 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > > The problem comes with discovering the format. I've read and re-read the > > 8272 and 765 data sheets. From what I can see the only way to see what > > sectors are on the current track is to use the ReadID command. This > > returns the ID bytes from the next sector header to pass under the head. > > There is no way to automatically dump all the IDs from all the sectors > > from index pulse to the next index pulse (if there is, can somebody > > please enlighten me). > > You can read multiple IDs during a revolution (200msec) > If you don't get 'em all, put in a different delay. And what happens if you get a task-switch midway through this? > > A flux transition board (CopyII option board), > or a machine with a 179x can do a track read, that can be analyzed at a > glance. > Got Trakcess in your TRS80 M3/4 software? Oh, on a WD controller it's a lot easier. I have several disk zapping programs for the M3/M4 that do this, and I am pretty sure I have the source to at least one of them (from Tim Mann's site). I grew up with the WD controllers, and found the 8272/765 a real disapointment after those :-) > > > You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 byte, and > a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers up and down to > find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose numbering don't start > with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such as side B of Kaypro) IIRC the sector number is a single byte, so presumably you could try reading each sector in turn (0..255) in each size to see what gave no errors. I'd thought of doing it that way, but it's going to be terribly slow... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 14:48:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:48:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq Portable 386 Question In-Reply-To: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> from "Choctaw Bob" at Dec 21, 5 10:09:16 pm Message-ID: > Would a Decmate keyboard and monitor work with a Rainbow? Well, the keyboard/monitor from a DECmate II will work, they are the same units (modulo different keycaps in some cases). The keyboard is a plain LK201, the mono monitor is a VR201 (and the keyboard plugs into the monitor). That is just a composite monitor with strange connectors, The colour monitor is a VR241 (RGB monitor with sync-on-green). If you don't have the colour graphics board fitted, you get composite text video on one pin of the monitor connector. That's what drives the VR201 If you add the colour card, an output from that is combined with the text video and appears on the same pin. That gives you mono graphics/text on a VR201, and is also the green drive signal for the VR241. 2 other outputs from the colour card go to the R and B inputs on the VR241. You get green text and colour graphics. There is anouther output from the colour card that is combined with the syncs and ends up on another pin of the monitor connector. With a sepcial cable you can link that to the green input of the VR241 and also connect a VR201. That way you can have text (and optionally mono graphics) on the VR201, and colour graphics on the VR241. You should be able to find a file in the archives which explains the monitor connector on the 'bow, how to link up non-standard monitors, what happens if you have the colour card, etc. If not, I'll post it again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 16:24:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:24:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512221819.jBMIJfTx025169@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Dec 22, 5 01:19:41 pm Message-ID: > You don't even have to compile out the floppy driver - just don't open > it. > > You should be able to mmap any memory based registers into userland and > you can certainly do io instructions as root. You don't even need to go to that low a level. There is an ioctl() call (at least in this old kernel) to talk to the floppy controller at the register level. > > As long as there are no critical timing issues, and you don't need > interrupts it's not hard. That's the problem. To determine the sector layout there _are_ critical timing issues. To read or write a given sector there are no real problems. You load the floppy controller (and DMA chip) registers with the right values, it goes off and does it. It doesn't matter if your task is switched out at the end of that, the data will be there when your task runs again, etc. But to read the IDs, it appears you _have_ to submit the next command as soon as you get the results from the current one, or risk missing a sector. And as far as I can see there's no way to be sure of doing that on a multitasking system. > never concidered talking to the floppy controller, however. I have, it's not that hard (well, it can't be if I can manage it). > > Are we just talking 3 & 5" floppies here? hmm.... It shouldn't matter. IIRC the linux driver supports 2 controllers and up to 4 drives on each controller. Since you can get the floppy controller to do anything that it's capable of, there shouldn't be a problem with any size of drive (I assume, BTW, you mean 3.5" drives, 3" drives do exist but a not common on PCs). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 16:55:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:55:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems Message-ID: I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested' which I took to mean non-working. The PX8 had suffered a minor burn-up in the PSU area, which I have cured (one new transsitor, resistor and zener diode. The computer now seems to work find (and it's a very nice toy). With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single 3.5" unit, with a 38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8. I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked it, and anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers. OK, a bit of background on the PF10 internals. There's a 6303X microcontroller (in an 80 pin package...) linked to a 27C64 EPROM (socketed) and a 6116 SRAM (SMD again). Address decoding is mainly done by a '138, with a few other TTL chips. Linked to that is a 765 disk controller, drivers for the head stepper motor, a data seperator chip, read/write chain, etc (note, there is no seperate logi board on the drive mechanism, the heads, stepper, etc plug straight into the controller board). There are several power supply lines, most of them under the control of the microcontroller. In particular, there's an always-on 5V line, a switcehd 5V Line (the disk controller, etc, is powered down when the unit is idle), +/- supplies for the RS232 drivers, a +12V line for the analogue circuitry. OK, at power-on, the 'power' LED comes on (I have connected 5V from my bench supply in place of the NiCd battery pack). The always-on 5V line is at 4.95V. None of the othher supples are present (this could be right at this point) I connected it to the PX8, DIR D: gives 'BDOS ERROR ON D: SELECT'. A breakout box connected between the computer and the drive (RS232 levels, rememeber) shows that when I run that command, the computer's serial port is turned on, something comes on on the TxD line, but the disk drive never turns on its port or sends anything back. More worrying, reducing the voltage from by bench supply never turns on the low battery LED on the drive unit. This is controlled by the microcontroller, BTW. I pulled it apart, of course. The serial data from the PX8 does get to the appropriate pin on the microcontroller. The microcontroller is clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's accessing the ROM, but it also appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138 decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some of them. Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane. Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too. I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get them. Any comments, suggestions, or things to check? (Yes, I know about PC-based emulators for these drives, but I'd like to get the real unit working too). -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 22 17:12:49 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:12:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20051222122310.03a36368@155.212.1.107> Message-ID: > I don't have the serial numbers for a bunch of KS-10s that are in > storage, including yours William. I won't be surprised if more KS and > KLs show up. Probably - just it has been a while. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 22 17:13:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:13:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're > *one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though > space and power are about as important for me :^( Yes, I am looking for disk and tape that will work. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 22 17:14:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:14:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <22825cdd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: Real disk drives are 14". Almost real drives are 8". Everything smaller is a doorstop. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 22 17:16:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:16:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221837.jBMIbF1G030540@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > cold storage? any chance any of them will "thaw"? :-) While at one point I had three KS10s, I only have one now, and no, it will not "thaw". Unless one stokes the fire with some big IBM or Univac. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 22 17:17:53 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:17:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <1135279608.8796.20.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: > Is anyone else interested in something like this? Interested, yes. As much as I like BIG drives, I know they are fragile beasts, and they just do not make 'em anymore. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 22 17:23:53 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:23:53 +0000 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AB3589.7000300@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and > therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get > them. > > Any comments, suggestions, or things to check? Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the memory? Try and disassemble the ROM, or run it on an emulator? Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 22 17:24:56 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:24:56 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512221824.56616.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Thursday 22 December 2005 15:36: > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:44 +0000 (GMT) > > > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do wonder if > > > it's actually possible to write such a program to run under > > > linux or any other multi-tasking system. > > > > Since it's possible under Linux or one of the BSD Unixes to > > completely compile out support for the floppy controller, it > > should also be possible to pull said kernel code out, and create a > > (super)user-mode module application out of it to do whatever you > > want with the disk controller. More of this sort of thing should > > be done, in my estimation. (my two cent opinion, I know, since I > > should do-it-myself). > > You are, IMHO, missing the point. Under linux, you have an ioctl() > call that lets you send any ocmmand bytes you like to the FDC. You can > therefore get that chip to do anything that it's capable of. And that > call takes care of setting up the DMA controller if you need it, > making sure the DMA buffer doesn't cross a page boundary, and all the > other nasty little details. Why can't you just write a kernel module that does its ReadID with interrupts turned off... there's ways to keep the OS from task switching during the critical section of your code that does the sector layout determination - writing a kernel module or using realtime priority (nice -20 might work on Linux) of the OS if it's got it. Assuming you're using a machine with a real PIC interrupt controller, not new enough to have an APIC of some sort, under Linux/x86 you can always do an iopl(3), and turn off the interrupt controller by hand, from userland, if you're running as root. Just Be Careful when you try that. and don't leave it off for too long... :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tradde at excite.com Thu Dec 22 17:38:24 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:38:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s Message-ID: <20051222233824.E7170374C8@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> --- On Thu 12/22, William Donzelli < aw288 at osfn.org > wrote: From: William Donzelli [mailto: aw288 at osfn.org] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:17:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: PDP-10s > Is anyone else interested in something like this?Interested, yes. As much as I like BIG drives, I know they are fragilebeasts, and they just do not make 'em anymore. I have a single RP06 drive here that came with an OEM pdp-11. I have never gotten the 11 to work. I did get the RP06 to spin up, keeping the heads from loading. It needs a good cleaning. And it is very very heavy. :) I have an extra pack still in the box for it too. Don't know if it's any good, but if any one is interested? _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From tradde at excite.com Thu Dec 22 17:40:18 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:40:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-10s Message-ID: <20051222234018.33846374DC@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> --- On Thu 12/22, William Donzelli < aw288 at osfn.org > wrote: From: William Donzelli [mailto: aw288 at osfn.org] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:16:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: PDP-10s > cold storage? any chance any of them will "thaw"? :-)While at one point I had three KS10s, I only have one now, and no, it willnot "thaw". Unless one stokes the fire with some big IBM or Univac. I have always thought I would like to come across a 10 someday. The one I used at Penn State was a fascinating machine. It was an early KA-10, and took up most of the room. Maybe someday something will come my way. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 22 17:40:58 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:40:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 22, 2005 10:24:19 PM Message-ID: <20051222234058.E47507302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > As long as there are no critical timing issues, and you don't need > > interrupts it's not hard. > > That's the problem. To determine the sector layout there _are_ critical > timing issues. > > To read or write a given sector there are no real problems. You load the > floppy controller (and DMA chip) registers with the right values, it goes > off and does it. It doesn't matter if your task is switched out at the > end of that, the data will be there when your task runs again, etc. > > But to read the IDs, it appears you _have_ to submit the next command as > soon as you get the results from the current one, or risk missing a > sector. And as far as I can see there's no way to be sure of doing that > on a multitasking system. The only way I see this happening is to modify the floppy device driver to support a call to do this. I don't know the low level details involved (do you issue the command and wait for an IRQ, or just keep polling?) but I wouldn't attempt to do such a thing in userland if it's that time critical. -spc ('tis just another ioctl() away ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 22 17:41:49 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 15:41:49 -0800 Subject: Floppy sector ordering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512221541490248.0AECBD8F@10.0.0.252> On 12/22/2005 at 10:24 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But to read the IDs, it appears you _have_ to submit the next command as >soon as you get the results from the current one, or risk missing a >sector. And as far as I can see there's no way to be sure of doing that >on a multitasking system. Okay, I'll drop another hint (geez, you guys really need to read the data sheets). Let's assume that the disk contains something other than format pattern in all sectors; i.e., assume that the contents sector-to-sector differ. If you're not sure about the latter bit, you could always read the sectors up and save them, write your own pattern, do your ordering determination, then write the original data back. Read a bunch of ID's repeatedly so that you're relatively sure that you've got them all. Based on the number of different sector ID's you have, figure out how many sectors are on the track. Now, issue a Read Track for the appropriate sector count--stash the data away for a bit. Now, read each sector individually and hang onto the data. Using a good checksum or hash, compute a sum for each sector in each of the two buffers. Use the Read Track buffer to tell you what the order of sectors is on the track. Here's the thing about Read Track--it starts at the index and reads sectors without regard to what's in the IDAMs--so you get the sector data in the order that it occurs on the track--and so you can figure out how things are ordered. It's not perfect, but it will work pretty well. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 22 17:42:50 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:42:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512221824.56616.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 22, 2005 06:24:56 PM Message-ID: <20051222234250.A40097302A@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Patrick Finnegan once stated: > > > You are, IMHO, missing the point. Under linux, you have an ioctl() > > call that lets you send any ocmmand bytes you like to the FDC. You can > > therefore get that chip to do anything that it's capable of. And that > > call takes care of setting up the DMA controller if you need it, > > making sure the DMA buffer doesn't cross a page boundary, and all the > > other nasty little details. > > Why can't you just write a kernel module that does its ReadID with > interrupts turned off... there's ways to keep the OS from task > switching during the critical section of your code that does the sector > layout determination - writing a kernel module or using realtime > priority (nice -20 might work on Linux) of the OS if it's got it. Not sure how that would play on a mutiple processor system, but yes, that would work on a single processor system. -spc (Overall system performance might suffer, but this is a rare thing to do anyway ... ) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 17:44:44 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:44:44 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <43AB3A6C.5070400@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) I > started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and IBM > comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). > What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were > some of the older good ones that are no more? IBM didn't bite the dust, really. Pretty much all of what is now HGST used to be IBM/Adstar. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 18:06:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:06:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43AB3589.7000300@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 22, 5 11:23:53 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and > > therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get > > them. > > > > Any comments, suggestions, or things to check? > > Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the memory? > > Try and disassemble the ROM, or run it on an emulator? Yeah, but those are both more work than desoldering the RAM and testing it 'by hand'.... I was wondering if there was a 'gotcha' of the form 'if port is stuck low, then the thing will go crazy waiting for it to go high'. Admittedly all the inputs I've checked look to be in the right state. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 18:11:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:11:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <200512221824.56616.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Dec 22, 5 06:24:56 pm Message-ID: > > You are, IMHO, missing the point. Under linux, you have an ioctl() > > call that lets you send any ocmmand bytes you like to the FDC. You can > > therefore get that chip to do anything that it's capable of. And that > > call takes care of setting up the DMA controller if you need it, > > making sure the DMA buffer doesn't cross a page boundary, and all the > > other nasty little details. FWIW, I've tried out Eric's dumpids program, and it behaves as I suspected. Using a disk I know the format of (OK, a plain MS-DOS 1.44M disk), it does, indeed, miss some sectors on my machine. It is particularly noticeable that a given sector number is not always followed by the same sector number. > > Why can't you just write a kernel module that does its ReadID with Becuase 'just writing a kernel module' is not something I do for fun :-). Tracking down a fautly component in some bit of hardware, now that is fun.... [In other words, we can't all be good at everything, OK] > interrupts turned off... there's ways to keep the OS from task > switching during the critical section of your code that does the sector > layout determination - writing a kernel module or using realtime > priority (nice -20 might work on Linux) of the OS if it's got it. > > Assuming you're using a machine with a real PIC interrupt controller, not Which of course I am. In fact it is a real 8259, it's not even hidden inside some part of a chipset. > new enough to have an APIC of some sort, under Linux/x86 you can always > do an iopl(3), and turn off the interrupt controller by hand, from > userland, if you're running as root. Just Be Careful when you try that. > and don't leave it off for too long... :) That sounds like a very good way to stop all sorts of things from working. In fact I susepct the floppy driver depends on interrupts to work (even for the FDRAWCMD ioctl()). Yes, I could disable all others, I guess and hope... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 18:17:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:17:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Floppy sector ordering In-Reply-To: <200512221541490248.0AECBD8F@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 22, 5 03:41:49 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/22/2005 at 10:24 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >But to read the IDs, it appears you _have_ to submit the next command as > >soon as you get the results from the current one, or risk missing a > >sector. And as far as I can see there's no way to be sure of doing that > >on a multitasking system. > > Okay, I'll drop another hint (geez, you guys really need to read the data > sheets). Let's assume that the disk contains something other than format I will remind you of the comment in parentheses next time you need something explained. As I said last night, I've read the Intel and NEC data sheets, and this was not obvious to me. > pattern in all sectors; i.e., assume that the contents sector-to-sector > differ. If you're not sure about the latter bit, you could always read > the sectors up and save them, write your own pattern, do your ordering > determination, then write the original data back. No way would I recomend writing to an alien-format disk when trying to archive it. Too much could go wrong. > > Read a bunch of ID's repeatedly so that you're relatively sure that you've > got them all. Based on the number of different sector ID's you have, > figure out how many sectors are on the track. > > Now, issue a Read Track for the appropriate sector count--stash the data > away for a bit. > > Now, read each sector individually and hang onto the data. > > Using a good checksum or hash, compute a sum for each sector in each of the > two buffers. Use the Read Track buffer to tell you what the order of > sectors is on the track. > > Here's the thing about Read Track--it starts at the index and reads sectors > without regard to what's in the IDAMs--so you get the sector data in the > order that it occurs on the track--and so you can figure out how things are > ordered. It's a pity that the Read Track command doesn't also give you the contents of the headers (or at least give you the option of getting the contents of the headers). That would make this whole job totally trivial.... This is the sort of thing which makes me think everything about the PC is broken somehow... > > It's not perfect, but it will work pretty well. Probably good enough, a fair bit of work (and the first part, getting all the IDs, is time-critical enough not to be possible from userland under a multi-tasking OS). -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 22 14:24:21 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:24:21 +0000 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are interested in the content. > clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's accessing the ROM, but it also > appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138 > decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The > address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some > of them. > > Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane. > Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address > lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and > interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too. If you have correctly identified the vectors, they should point into the ROM space ... If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will let you peek into the startup code a little better. > I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and > therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get > them. > > Any comments, suggestions, or things to check? As noted above I don't have a PF10, so this is only general info. If the code in the EPROM is good, it's likely bad RAM (stack), contention on the bus causing corrupted reads, or a bad buffer (or even the micro) also causing bad reads. - But I suspect you already know this. Given that so many parts are SMD but the EPROM is socketed, the first thing I would probably do is to use my EPROM emulator (or program another 2764 if you don't have one) to do a simple single JMP instruction infinite loop out of reset - this will tell you if the CPU can read and execute code from the ROM, and will give you a much more stable bus to look at. Assumign that works, I might then fill the ROM with NOPs (and a JMP at the end to the beginning) so that I could see activity on the address bus. MOV immediates can be used to get a specific (or incrementing) data pattern every few cycles as well (now you know what I like to use an EPROM emulator for this). Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 pin "plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware). What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX ready, TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting on jumper to move the block to either end. I've written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read" and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when debugging at this level. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 22 14:24:21 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:24:21 +0000 Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: References: <20051221185723.I6352@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 21, 5 07:15:32 pm Message-ID: <20051223003059.YDGD9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Just checked back - It's good to see that the conversation has finally turned back to useful persuits. > I grew up with the WD controllers, and found the 8272/765 a real > disapointment after those :-) Here we are in complete agreement. > > You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 byte, and > > a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers up and down to > > find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose numbering don't start > > with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such as side B of Kaypro) > > IIRC the sector number is a single byte, so presumably you could try > reading each sector in turn (0..255) in each size to see what gave no > errors. I'd thought of doing it that way, but it's going to be terribly > slow... FWIW, this is what I did: During the "Full analysis" performed at the beginning, or any time the format appears to have changed, I : First hunt for the correct data-rate (250/300/500) and mode (FM/MFM) by reprograming the controller and issuing read-id until I find it (You can see this if you watch the indicators at the top of the screen) - then I intentionally reprogram the FDC to "wrong" values and issue a read-id, which will fail at the second occurance of the index hole. This gets me to the physical start of the track. Also note that this will get you the sector size, although you don't actually need it during analysis (you will need it for later reading). I then reprogram the FDC to the correct data-rate/format, and begin reading ID's as quickly as possible and building a list of the ID's and the order in which they occur. Some formats are "on the edge" of what the PC can read (or sometimes the disk/drive is unreliable), so you cannot guarantee that you will see all of the IDs reliably. What I do to detect this is to continue reading IDs for several revolutions keeping count of how many of each ID has been seen. I then check the ID counts and make a decision as to how reliable the sector list is - if I deem it to be unreliable, I issue the warning "Unable to determine interleave", and reorder the sector ID's according to "best guess" (see below) if it was configured for "As Read". Once I have the sector list, I process it according to the configured interleave settings: "As Read" (the default setting) means that I take the sector list exactly as it was observed on the disk. "Best guess" means that I sort the IDs and work out the average spacing of adjacent IDs in my sorted list against the original ID list (I use the sorted list to make it independant of actual logical sector numbering - I've found some formats which have gaps in the sector numbering - ie: use even or odd numbers only).- Then I re-interleave the sector numbers based on this calculated average. "fixed number" means I simply re-interleave the sectors frojm the lowest according the specified spacing no matter what order I actually found them in. (btw, this interleave process is done for both reading or writing, so you can write a disk with different interleave than it was read if you wish). The whole process is a bit more complex than this, because I also maintain head numbering maps and cylinder numbering maps so that I can deal with other odd disk formats - for example, some disks record the side2 sectors as continued sector numbering on side1 (!). - This gives it "different" sector numbers and "wrong" head numbers on side2. Btw, I maintain two separate control blocks which track the format information for both sides of the disk independantly. Unless you have turned on "Full analysis", I do not repeat this procedure as long as all of the information I have collected continues to result in complete and successful track reads - in the event that an operation fails, I will perform another full analysis on the track. To accomodate any "really odd" disks which change the format subtly from track to track, I provide the "Full analysis" option which goes through the entire process for every single track. The above process has two "real time" critical operations. Getting the first read-id going after the intentionally failed read, and getting on with the next read-id after each one has returned it's results. In my program, I use interrupts only when waiting for the completion of seeks and DMA transfers. In particular, I am not currently using interrupts to control the read-ID command - even where I do use interrupts, I am using it only to signal that the FDC has entered it's result phase. This works well under a non-multitasking system, however under Linix or any other such system, it could be an issue to these real-time critical points as has been noted. Bringing the system up in single-user mode would probably help, as would eliminating all the background activity that you can... however this is not a definitive solution. I think a better approach would be to move much of the above logic into the interrupt handler - this could be done with a small state machine: - When the initial read-id fails (and generates an interrupt), you could switch modes and issue the first "real" read-id command directly from within the interrupt handler. - As each read-id completes and an interrupt is generated, you can store the information and issue the next read-id command from within the interrupt handler - you need only set a "done" flag when you determine the analysis is complete. This would reduce your real-time concerns to the latency at which the system can service and interrupt, and as long as your mainline tasks are not doing something "unfriendly" like disabling interrupts for extended periods of time, it should work OK even on a multitasking system. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 18:36:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:36:52 -0500 Subject: Good haul of old pc stuph In-Reply-To: References: <20051221212246.4fe3ac44.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051222193652.4a0f207e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:17:11 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > What sort of signal? Surely not composite video. EGA > > resolution isn't composite video. I was talking specifically > > about the IBM > > You can have composite video for any scan rates, although > finding a monitor that works with it could be 'interesting'. > > However, The IBM EGA card (and I would assume the clones) can > drive a CGA monitor at the standard (TV) rates. No, you don't > get the higher resolution modes, but IIRC you can have more > colours than on a CGA card. For that matter, the EGA card will > also drive an MDA monitor at the MDA rates, and has a graphics > mode that's not the same as hercules... > I ran Windows 3.0 on monochrome EGA for a long time with a TTL monitor. It has a much better 'aspect ratio' than a Hercules card and just generally looked better. Microsoft Word for DOS works pretty well, too. It completely shuts you out of all the hacks to make a Herc card simulate a CGA, though, so no games. The MDA modes for the IBM EGA card are very obscure and little third party software supports them. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 22 18:41:30 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:41:30 -0800 Subject: Floppy sector ordering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512221641300886.0B2361D6@10.0.0.252> On 12/23/2005 at 12:17 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I will remind you of the comment in parentheses next time you need >something explained. As I said last night, I've read the Intel and NEC >data sheets, and this was not obvious to me. You're welcome. :) But Fred has said this--and I'll repeat it. You're not guaranteed an accurate analysis using a 765-based anything--and that's a problem if what you're trying to do is establish some sort of archival-grade repository of images. You can get a bunch of hints issuing a one-sector Read Track using a very large sector size, but you run the risk of missing a lot. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 18:45:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:45:14 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: References: <20051221213331.28f380fc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051222194514.204517b9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:36:46 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:26:44 +0000 (GMT) > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > To get back to disk imaging, I may be stupid, but I do > > > wonder if it's actually possible to write such a program to > > > run under linux or any other multi-tasking system. > > > > > Since it's possible under Linux or one of the BSD Unixes to > > completely compile out support for the floppy controller, it > > should also be possible to pull said kernel code out, and > > create a (super)user-mode module application out of it to do > > whatever you want with the disk controller. More of this sort > > of thing should be done, in my estimation. (my two cent > > opinion, I know, since I should do-it-myself). > > You are, IMHO, missing the point. Under linux, you have an > ioctl() call that lets you send any ocmmand bytes you like to > the FDC. You can therefore get that chip to do anything that > it's capable of. And that call takes care of setting up the DMA > controller if you need it, making sure the DMA buffer doesn't > cross a page boundary, and all the other nasty little details. > > Actually sending a ReadID command is not a problem. > > The problem is that the ReadID command reads the next sector ID > to come round to the head. The only way (that I can see) to > make sure you've not missed any is to keep on sending ReadID > commands (and getting the results) until you get the same ID > again that you got from the first one -- i.e. the disk has gone > round once. > > The problem on a multi-tasking OS is that your task might be > switched out half-way though this. You might therefore miss a > sector ID entirely. And how ever many times you repeat it, you > can never be sure you've not been unlucky and missed the same > one each time. > It's not difficult to boot linux in single user mode. And then to think of it as an infinitely flexible MS_DOS type of OS. After you've gotten the image safely stored somewhere, boot it to a time sharing mode to move the image around and/or explore it. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 18:49:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:49:28 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <20051222194928.235da17a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 23:41:08 -0500 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so > long ago) I started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the > dust ( Micropilis and IBM comes to mind since I have a few of > each on the spare parts shelf shelf). What do you guys think of > the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were some of the > older good ones that are no more? > Why, CMI, of course! (evil wink) > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 18:52:54 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 00:52:54 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <43A2691C.6060208@oldskool.org> References: <0IRE0022XJ068XTI@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <439E088B.2030804@oldskool.org> <439E0CB9.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20051212191304.04fc6598@mail.30below.com> <575131af0512151321t1d310275rf586987831ca841c@mail.gmail.com> <43A2691C.6060208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0512221652w7db37741k9134c6d371e07037@mail.gmail.com> On 12/16/05, Jim Leonard wrote: > All true, depending on how you interpret the word "decent". What killed > Coherent was lack of a TCP/IP stack and virtual memory. The head of the > company decided that a pretty GUI (X Windows) was worth more of R&D's time. > > The 386 version ran in true protected mode and had a flat address space. The C > compiler was so size-efficient that we got a version of X Windows running on a > 2MB 386 (remember, no virtual memory!). > > > Don't think anyone ever accused the Mark Williams Company of being evil! > > Not until the final year, where all of us were cursing the head of the company > (I was an employee for 3 years). But I agree with you, it was a great company > filled with very talented, quirky people. The boat anchor manual was worth the > $99 all by itself (and toward the end of the company, Linux users were ordering > Coherent just to get their hands on the manual, since Linux was around version > 1.2 and had no real docs). Fascinating stuff! Thanks for that. Something that I wished I'd seen back then - I was a SCO type back then - but it's too historical to be of much interest now... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 22 18:55:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:55:22 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <20051222195522.6b89332b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:16:04 -0600 "Julian Wolfe" wrote: > Actually, I've been a Seagate man myself ever since I bought my > first hard disk. In fact, I don't own anything without a > Seagate in it, even my PDP-11. > Middle era Seagate drives (the ST-225 era) sound like a steel mill running out of control. Meaning, they are horrendously noisy. That teeth-grating 'Seagate sound' is very characteristic and one can tell a machine has one of those drives lurking within just by the sound. My first hard drive, a Shugart 5-1/4" full height 5 meg drive, was one of the quietest I have ever owned. I think it was a model ST-506. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 22 19:00:20 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:00:20 +0000 Subject: Old MS-DOS & WIN Software In-Reply-To: <200512151421360870.28FA69DE@10.0.0.252> References: <200512031800.jB3I0Uc3041924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.0.3.0.2.20051212144127.03e60890@alpha.ccii.co.za> <439D7218.60909@gmail.com> <20051212122820.K54336@shell.lmi.net> <200512121251490552.193529A4@10.0.0.252> <575131af0512151326w49c11188n558edfcf8f0f5ce@mail.gmail.com> <200512151421360870.28FA69DE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <575131af0512221700p6d6aebfatb05f8e0d12d45e03@mail.gmail.com> On 12/15/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/15/2005 at 9:26 PM Liam Proven wrote: > When it comes to Microsoft, there are a lot of "What ifs". > > Note that even back in 1990, Gates thought that OS/2 should be marketed in > separate 32- and 16-bit versions. [...] In hindsight, it's stunning how blind people were... But hindsight, as George Benson sang, is 20:20 vision. It's obvious /now/... Shame, though. I always did like OS/2. One of the vanishingly few bits of PC software I have spent actual money on. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 22 19:15:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:15:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 22, 5 08:24:21 pm Message-ID: > > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention that > I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are interested in > the content. Quite possibly, yes. But let me get the machine working properly first :-) Other (related) things that I am looking for.... 1) The plastic ROM carriers. These are plastic mouldings that you put a DIP-packaged EPROM into, then crimp the pins over. The same carriers were used in the Tandy M100, and I think 24-pin versions were used in that Panasonic hand-held machine that gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin ones, I think Molex once made them. 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 one already). The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the cartridge connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which doesn't seem to work. > > > > clocking (1.23MHz on the Eclk pin), it's accessing the ROM, but it also > > appears to be wandering around the memory map (outputs on the '138 > > decoder that are not used for anything are being asserted at times). The > > address lines look odd to me, with pulses narrower than the Eclk on some > > of them. > > > > Since the ROM is socketed, I pulled it and read it out. It looks sane. > > Certainly no data bit is stuck high or stuck low, and all the address > > lines do something. Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and > > interrupt vectors at the top of memory, that looks sane too. > > If you have correctly identified the vectors, they should point into the > ROM space ... That's what I mean by sane.... The ROM sits in the second half of the address space (it's an 8K ROM, 27C64, and it's enabled when A15 is high. It's ghosted 4 times). If this is like a 68xx, I would expect vectors at the very top of the address space, with the highest one of all to be the reset vector MSB first. This ROM contains what looks like code in the first half or so. Then a large block of FFs. And then the vectors. The very top one is 'E000' which would point to the first byte of the ROM. Most of the others are EExx, again in the 'code-like' part of the ROM. Obviously this doesn't mean that the ROM is good, but it does mean it's not totally defective. > > If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will > let you peek into the startup code a little better. It's an HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it. > > > > I suspect the microocontroller or the RAM. Alas both are SMD (and > > therefore a pain to remove), I have spares for neither and no way to get > > them. > > > > Any comments, suggestions, or things to check? > > As noted above I don't have a PF10, so this is only general info. > > If the code in the EPROM is good, it's likely bad RAM (stack), contention > on the bus causing corrupted reads, or a bad buffer (or even the micro) > also causing bad reads. - But I suspect you already know this. There are no bus buffers in this unit (there don't need to be, the only things on the bus are the microcontroller, ROM, RAM, and 765 disk controller chip). The 765 is powered down (I think this is correct, it is powered from the switched 5V line. Since that line direclty powers the in-use LED on the drive frontpanel, I suspect it should be off when the thing is not actually reading/writing). I don't think it's a contention either. The address decoder seems to be doing the right things too. THis leaves the 2 devices I suspected -- RAM and microcontroller. > > Given that so many parts are SMD but the EPROM is socketed, the first > thing I would probably do is to use my EPROM emulator (or program > another 2764 if you don't have one) to do a simple single JMP instruction > infinite loop out of reset - this will tell you if the CPU can read and execute > code from the ROM, and will give you a much more stable bus to look at. > > Assumign that works, I might then fill the ROM with NOPs (and a JMP at > the end to the beginning) so that I could see activity on the address bus. > MOV immediates can be used to get a specific (or incrementing) data > pattern every few cycles as well (now you know what I like to use an > EPROM emulator for this). Fortunately I do have an EPROM emulator. This is a good idea, well worth trying. Next thing is to get out the datasheets and find the opcodes for jmp and nop ;-) -tony From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Dec 22 14:50:47 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 20:50:47 +0000 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051223014710.XFSA17035.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > was JTS. > > -Chuck > A QUICKIE: That JTS 1GB hd still running in front desk computer at our TV shop, been this way for 3 years now. That pc with that horrible JTS was there when I started there. 8-O About Maxtors, I started buying Maxtors in decent numbers (about 10 of different models, 2 before Quantum, rest after. They're still working. Except for one Quantum I had to RMA 2x a LPS 120A, a quickest IDE I had for a Quantum in 1993. Even I had bought several Quantums but not bigfoot (slooow). I only started buying Seagate again this year starting with 20GB 5400.2 then 80GB 7200.7 SATA (mistake!!, slow and fussy to get working with motherboard!), 200GB 2 platter version 7200.8 ATA, this one is quickest one I have compared to other HDs I have currently. I even have Samsung 80GB ATA. Not too bad but heat is compareable to other decent running HDs but performance is well, is ok. Cheers, Wizard PS: if JTS ever dies, no weeping involved since data is stored on server. Front desk pc just a client. :) From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 22 17:03:16 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:03:16 +0000 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 22, 5 08:24:21 pm Message-ID: <20051223030948.MYI9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Other (related) things that I am looking for.... > > 1) The plastic ROM carriers. These are plastic mouldings that you put a > DIP-packaged EPROM into, then crimp the pins over. The same carriers were > used in the Tandy M100, and I think 24-pin versions were used in that > Panasonic hand-held machine that gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin > ones, I think Molex once made them. Don't have any spares unfortunately - but FWIW, I believe it is possible to insert ROMs without them (not great, but possible). I believe I have seen a reference to this somewhere on the web. > 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 > one already). The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the > cartridge connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there > which doesn't seem to work. I'd be interested in any of this info as well. > The ROM sits in the second half of the address space (it's an 8K ROM, > 27C64, and it's enabled when A15 is high. It's ghosted 4 times). If this > is like a 68xx, I would expect vectors at the very top of the address > space, with the highest one of all to be the reset vector MSB first. > > This ROM contains what looks like code in the first half or so. Then a > large block of FFs. And then the vectors. The very top one is 'E000' > which would point to the first byte of the ROM. Most of the others are > EExx, again in the 'code-like' part of the ROM. I agree - this sounds like a 68xx architecture. > > If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will > > let you peek into the startup code a little better. > > It's an HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock > rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing > a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it. I don't have a Hitachi data book handy, although I know there are some "somewhere" in the workshop - I'm guessing that this is a second-source of a Motorola 6803, which is essentially a ROMless 6801, which is a slightly enhanced 6800. If all of the above it true, I can give you both an assembler and disassembler (runs under any DOS compatible environment) for the 6801 which should cover the instruction set. Let me know if you want them and I'll send by email. > Fortunately I do have an EPROM emulator. This is a good idea, well worth > trying. Next thing is to get out the datasheets and find the opcodes for > jmp and nop ;-) Assuming it is a 6801/03 compatible CPU: E000 7E E0 00 2 JMP * E003 01 3 NOP Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 22 21:21:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:21:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051222183935.O60861@shell.lmi.net> > > You can read multiple IDs during a revolution (200msec) > > If you don't get 'em all, put in a different delay. On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > And what happens if you get a task-switch midway through this? I've never really felt a need nor desire to run a multitasking OS while analyzing diskettes. The best way to multitask is multiple machines. > I grew up with the WD controllers, and found the 8272/765 a real > disapointment after those :-) WD is certainly a better match for what WE like to do. But the 765 works reasonably reliably, and is prob'ly just fine for what SOME people want to do. > > You can analyze MOST formats by trying to read a 256 byte, a 512 byte, and > > a 1024 byte sector, such as #2, and then trying the numbers up and down to > > find first and last. Won't work for sectors whose numbering don't start > > with 0 or 1, or ones with invalid headers (such as side B of Kaypro) > IIRC the sector number is a single byte, so presumably you could try > reading each sector in turn (0..255) in each size to see what gave no > errors. I'd thought of doing it that way, but it's going to be terribly > slow... If I have my tools available, I read the IDs, read the "raw" track with a 179x, read the track with an option board, and then look at sector contents. None of which is on my bookkeeping machine, nor most of my coding machines. I'm a little impatient, so if I need to analyze a format without my tools, I try a "likely" sector number, such as 2 or 3 in each size to determine the sector size. THEN I try 0 and 1 to find the lowest sector number, followed by likely last numbers. IFF "likely" sector numbers don't work, THEN I will try brute force of loops to try every possible number. BTW, although I will gladly discuss techniques with anybody who wants to make software tools, I will NOT release source code for my retail products without appropriate formal agreements, (I HAVE had to deal with SALE of unauthorized copies), and not until I go through and clean it up, including putting in comments that other people besides myself would understand. And, I won't release even the binaries of my in-house analysis tools until I clean up some known problems, and put an adequate user interface on them. If anybody doesn't like that, they are more than welcome to write their own. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 23 02:46:35 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:46:35 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: <43AB3589.7000300@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 22, 5 11:23:53 pm Message-ID: <40299.195.212.29.83.1135327595.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> Blow a test program into ROM, and let it walk the memory? > > Yeah, but those are both more work than desoldering the RAM and testing > it 'by hand'.... IIRC the NOP instruction is 0x01 - you could knock up something to pull the bus low apart from D0 when it's /ROMCS is asserted. Some diodes and an inverter, perhaps. Then the thing would just madly run NOPS all the time until it fell off the end of ROM. If it tried to read vectors from ROM it would just jump to 0x0101. You should be able to see the address lines doing their thing with a scope then, albeit briefly. Gordon. From leemj at myung.co.kr Thu Dec 22 03:58:00 2005 From: leemj at myung.co.kr (leemj) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 18:58:00 +0900 Subject: Philips LDB4401 cassette Message-ID: <01f301c606de$31240b70$c1e830d3@mjleelsuigyn4u> Dear Sir/Madam, I am M.J.Lee president of Myung Information Tech in South Korea. I am looking for about 100 pcs of Philips LDB4401 mini-cassette. Can you help us ? M.J.Lee - President Myung Information Technology Co., LTD 644-5 Gak-Ri, O-Chang, ChungBuk , South Korea TEL : 82-43-212-2277 Fax : 82-43-218-8409 e-mail : leemj at myung.co.kr From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Dec 22 18:00:59 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 19:00:59 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051222190022.043cd538@boff-net.dhs.org> I have a Connor 4.x GB model laying about, it did power up and work last time I used it (several months ago). -John Boffemmyer IV At 04:29 AM 12/22/2005, you wrote: >In message <200512212211200240.072AFC9B at 10.0.0.252> > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like > > was JTS. > >Never used a Kalok then? Those things were nasty... > >As far as drive failures go, I've had one Maxtor 40GB fail and a Seagate 2GB >develop sticktion. Interestingly enough, the Quantum-designed drives (D740X >especially) don't seem to be as failure-prone as the newer "pureblood" Maxtor >drives. DiamondMax 8 slimlines are truly crap as far as reliability goes. >That said, you buy cheap, you get cheap - DM8s are (or at least were) the >absolute cheapest drives Maxtor made. I usually pick drives from somewhere in >the middle of the capacity range, and aim to pay around ?65-?80 per drive. > >Notice how most of the people whining "XYZ drives are crap" are the >cheapskates that went and bought the ?30 "white box" OEM drives... Cheap >is generally synonymous with "crap" in the world of hard drives, IME. > >On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 that I >pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten years old and >it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT >philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook >... If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.3/209 - Release Date: 12/21/2005 From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Dec 23 03:19:38 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 10:19:38 +0100 (MET) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? Message-ID: <13027.1135329578@www20.gmx.net> Just a quick progress indication: My attempt of looking at the source of "boot" came to a halt at a point a few word levels down in the code there's a [compile] directive followed by just fragments of text (the exact line is "[compile] ot image fai"). The debugger, which I'm learning to use according to the instructions in the Quick Reference, gets turned off right there and the usual messages ("Boot device: " etc.) start to appear. I've also read into the "FCode 3.x Reference Manual" (available for free download from Sun) and found the following (quote): > OpenBoot performs the following steps during the boot process: > > (...) > > The bootpath and bootargs properties in the /chosen node of the > device tree are set with the selected values. At that point I decided to take a look at that node and its properties, amongst which I found to be "gateway-ip", "server-ip" and "client-ip", all initialized to "00 00 00 00". Those are most probably set according to the results of the rarp request. I can modify them with ok " "(<4 bytes adr>)" encode-bytes " -ip" property The "Writing FCode 3.x Programs" manual also has a lot of info about the netboot procedure (quote): > TFTP Booting Support Package > The /obp-tftp package implements the Internet Trivial File > Transfer Protocol (TFTP) for use in network booting. It is > typically used by a network device driver for its first stage > network boot protocol. Again, load is the most important method > defined by this package. > > This package uses the read and write methods of its parent, and > defines the following methods: > > Table 4-5 TFTP Package Methods > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Name Stack diagram Description > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > open (-- flag) Prepares the package for subsequent use, > returning -1 if the operation succeeds and > 0 otherwise. > > close (--) Frees all resources that were allocated by > open. > > load (adr -- size) Reads the default stand-alone program from > the default TFTP server, putting the program > at memory address adr and returning its > length size. > For the standard Sun TFTP booting protocol, > RARP (Reverse Address Resolution Protocol) > is used to acquire the IP address > corresponding to the system's MAC address > (equivalent to its Ethernet address). From > the IP address, the default file name is > constructed, of the form . > (for example, C0092E49.SUN4C). > Then obp-tftp tries to TFTP read that file, > first trying the server that responded to the > RARP request, and if that fails, then > broadcasting the TFTP read request. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously this method is called after I enter "boot net" (manually invoking it yields the same messages that usually come after "Boot device: "), but I'm yet failing to see how control is transferred between the two (also need to read more about how an instance of this package is created as a child to le) and in order not to miss steps which set up critical variables or properties, I need to know what (if anything) happens after the [compile] directive and before "/packages/obp-tftp/load" is executed. The code inside that "load" seems pretty modular after all, with calls like "do-rarp" and "tftpread", which I'm also going to take a closer look at over the next few days. At least I hope I'll get to... Season's greetings to everybody, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Dec 23 05:44:17 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:44:17 +0100 Subject: HP IPC / Thinkjet printhead repair / substitute ? Message-ID: <72CBD340-73A9-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> I would like to repair the last remaining problem with my HP IPC. : the printer. Yes, the previous owner did not remove the inkcartridge and the foil/flatcable connecting printhead to PCB has been etched clean... Any repair possible ? Any remaining source of the Thinkjet ones ? I have no trouble extending a Thinkjet foil to fit the IPC, but all Thinkjets I locate have exactly the same problem... Jos Dreesen From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Dec 23 07:21:39 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:21:39 +0100 Subject: 6809 stuff - good progress made on FDC 2793 for the Core (Blinkenlight) processor board Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25C5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, just wanted to share a "good feeling" for the season holidays. I got the 2793 floppy disk controller working on the 6809 Core Board. Read about it on my website in the folder "my projects -> Floppy disk" or use this direct link if you don't want JavaScript active: www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/floppy/diskstartpage.html I know that one picture is missing, I need to make that this weekend! enjoy the holidays, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 23 11:01:36 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:01:36 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <20051222194928.235da17a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> <20051222194928.235da17a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43AC2D70.3000603@brutman.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > Why, CMI, of course! (evil wink) > I have a PC AT downstairs. When I first aquired it (recycling cage at work) I opened it up to survey the situation, and found a CMI drive in it. After cleaning out the dust bunnies I powered it up, and it booted from the evil unit. After that I gingerly re-assembled it, and I am waiting to post it on eBay with a reserve of $10K USD. No seriously, I was so suprised that the drive was working that my jaw probably hit the floor. I had never seen a CMI drive and I heard the story about how they ramped up production very quickly for IBM, and thus threw the quality out of the window. This drive was either very lightly used, or it was a very early model that didn't suffer from the ramp-up in production. From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 11:28:50 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 04:20 pm, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:19 am, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>Old Hammond organs often have a wander light mounted inside, for working > >>on them. > > > > Oh? I've worked on lots of those, and don't remember anything of the > > sort... > > I've seen it in a couple of them, and the guy I used to know who did a > lot of organ repairs said it was pretty common. I did a lot of organ repair too, from around 1975-85 or thereabouts, and that included a fair number of old Hammonds, and I don't recall ever bumping into that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 23 11:40:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:40:58 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <43AC36AA.4050103@oldskool.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > As far as drive failures go, I've had one Maxtor 40GB fail and a Seagate 2GB The only drives that have failed on my like clockwork have been the Plus Hardcard drives. The EEPROMS give up the ghost after about 10 years, no idea why. I have three and they're all non-functional (they need working BIOSes to work, unfortunately, can't use them in "dumb" mode). I pulled a dead Quantum out of a 386SX last week, about 80MB I think. Horrible grinding noise; I believe the head was tracing a nice groove into a platter :-) Western Digital drives don't fail on me as much as they "pause for no good reason". I have WD 600ABs in my RAID and for no reason they'll just decide to lock up for 1-8 seconds on a write (never a read). I've checked SMART and it's not errors -- thermal recalibration maybe? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 23 11:41:37 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:41:37 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <41352.195.212.29.83.1135359697.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> I've seen it in a couple of them, and the guy I used to know who did a >> lot of organ repairs said it was pretty common. > > I did a lot of organ repair too, from around 1975-85 or thereabouts, and > that included a fair number of old Hammonds, and I don't recall ever > bumping > into that. Wonder if it's a UK thing? Something a specific dealer did? Gordon From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 11:40:04 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:40:04 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231240.04168.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so > the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested' > which I took to mean non-working. Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my list I posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more -- when I attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's been plugged in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some tech info on the innards of the thing? <...> > With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single 3.5" unit, with a > 38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8. I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-) > I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked it, and > anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces > (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the > disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN > plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with > a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers. I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it used to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific cable wiring info, assuming I can get this thing working? <...> > Assuming it's like a 68xx processor, with reset and interrupt vectors at the > top of memory, that looks sane too. I have a databook around here someplace that details those chips, there's a lot of differences for very small differences in the part number, but yeah, they're basically a variant of the 6800-series parts. And CMOS. <...> > (Yes, I know about PC-based emulators for these drives, but I'd like to > get the real unit working too). First I've heard of those. If I can get mine working, that would be a nice way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 11:41:11 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:41:11 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231241.11818.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 06:14 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > Real disk drives are 14". Almost real drives are 8". Everything smaller is > a doorstop. Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is anybody interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it out? No promises as to when, but... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 11:49:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:49:04 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <43AC36AA.4050103@oldskool.org> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43AC36AA.4050103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512230949040918.0ED022B2@10.0.0.252> On 12/23/2005 at 11:40 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Western Digital drives don't fail on me as much as they "pause for no good >reason". I have WD 600ABs in my RAID and for no reason they'll just >decide to >lock up for 1-8 seconds on a write (never a read). I've checked SMART and >it's >not errors -- thermal recalibration maybe? I've seen this too and it seems as if the drives spin down for a moment and then back up again. I have no idea what causes it. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 23 11:49:25 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:49:25 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <20051222195522.6b89332b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> <20051222195522.6b89332b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43AC38A5.7000009@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Middle era Seagate drives (the ST-225 era) sound like a steel mill > running out of control. Meaning, they are horrendously noisy. > That teeth-grating 'Seagate sound' is very characteristic and one > can tell a machine has one of those drives lurking within just by > the sound. Actually, I'm comforted by that sound. :-) When I write essays, I usually do so on the 5150 with 83-key keyboard and ST-225. It's very relaxing (to me). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 23 11:55:29 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:55:29 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512230949040918.0ED022B2@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43AC36AA.4050103@oldskool.org> <200512230949040918.0ED022B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43AC3A11.3090707@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Western Digital drives don't fail on me as much as they "pause for no good >>reason". I have WD 600ABs in my RAID and for no reason they'll just >>decide to >>lock up for 1-8 seconds on a write (never a read). I've checked SMART and >>it's >>not errors -- thermal recalibration maybe? > > I've seen this too and it seems as if the drives spin down for a moment and > then back up again. I have no idea what causes it. What's irritating is that, in a RAID system, if they don't spin back up quickly enough, the RAID card thinks the drive has failed and goes degraded. It's easy enough to disconnect then reconnect the drive, but I'll go with better calibre drives in my RAID next time. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Dec 23 12:19:11 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:19:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512231241.11818.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: > Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is anybody > interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it out? No > promises as to when, but... Of course! Start diggin'... If it is for an IBM 2311 or 3330, dig fast. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 23 12:23:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:23:34 -0700 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I did a lot of organ repair too, from around 1975-85 or thereabouts, and >that included a fair number of old Hammonds, and I don't recall ever bumping >into that. > > Just how big are the organs that people are wandering around in, needing a light? My guess is a light would be aound if the organ was installed in the 1900's to 1940's as you would have electricty for the organ and may not have great lightiing around. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 08:02:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:02:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <20051223030948.MYI9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 22, 5 11:03:16 pm Message-ID: > > > Other (related) things that I am looking for.... > > > > 1) The plastic ROM carriers. These are plastic mouldings that you put a > > DIP-packaged EPROM into, then crimp the pins over. The same carriers were > > used in the Tandy M100, and I think 24-pin versions were used in that > > Panasonic hand-held machine that gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin > > ones, I think Molex once made them. > > Don't have any spares unfortunately - but FWIW, I believe it is possible to insert > ROMs without them (not great, but possible). I believe I have seen a reference to > this somewhere on the web. Sure, I've seen that reference too. This type of IC socket makes contact wit the top, wider, part of the pin of the DIL package, the carrier is not essential, but it keeps the iC in the right place and avoids shorts. > > 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 > > one already). The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the > > cartridge connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there > > which doesn't seem to work. > > I'd be interested in any of this info as well. OK, if I discover anything by attacking the machine with a logic analyser and multimeter, I'll let uou know. I am sure you know this, but technical manuals for the HX20 and PX8 are on the web. The PX4 is similar to the PX8 (in that both are Z80 machines that run CP/M), but there are a lot of differences in the hardware. In particular, the PX8 has a 6303-type I/O processor (40 pin DIL package, intenral ROM IIRC), the PX4 doesn't. Both machines are stuffed with gata arrays, and they are not the same in the 2 machines (so the data in the PX8 manual is not a lot of help). Oh well.... > > > > The ROM sits in the second half of the address space (it's an 8K ROM, > > 27C64, and it's enabled when A15 is high. It's ghosted 4 times). If this > > is like a 68xx, I would expect vectors at the very top of the address > > space, with the highest one of all to be the reset vector MSB first. > > > > This ROM contains what looks like code in the first half or so. Then a > > large block of FFs. And then the vectors. The very top one is 'E000' > > which would point to the first byte of the ROM. Most of the others are > > EExx, again in the 'code-like' part of the ROM. > > I agree - this sounds like a 68xx architecture. I've read a datasheet on the web which confirms it's a superset of the 6801 instruction set. > I don't have a Hitachi data book handy, although I know there are some > "somewhere" in the workshop - I'm guessing that this is a second-source > of a Motorola 6803, which is essentially a ROMless 6801, which is a > slightly enhanced 6800. It is a much enhanced 6803 I think. The 6303X has quite a bit of on-chip I/O (including a serial port, 2 counter/timers, etc). But fortunately for me it is ROMless. > E000 7E E0 00 2 JMP * > E003 01 3 NOP Thanks... I spent a bit more time on it this afternoon. I desoldered the '138 address decoder and fitted a socket (it's a normal PTH DIL package). Bent out the pin that would select the RAM, and tied that pin on the socket high (thus disabling the on-board RAM). Then soldered a 6116 DIL pacakge on top of the EPROM with the WE/ and CE/ pins bent out. Connected those to the Wr/ line and the output of the address decoder. No change. I then pulled that kludge and the disk controller chip. At this point the only active thing on the bus was the processor (RAM disabled, the other 2 chips pulled). hardwared a NOP (01 hex) onto the data lines. OK, it'll read that as the reset vector too, but should then execute NOPs through the entire 64K address spece. Well, the low 8 address lines count up nicely, the high ones are crazy (bursts of activity with relaticely long gaps). And the Wr/ line is being asserted (surely not for a NOP). I am pretty sure the processor is dead, and have desoldered it (80 pin PQFP, I only lifted one pad on the board, and that is easy to repair). So now I am looking for a HD63A03XF (I will check that if anyone thinks they know where to find one). My junk box does contain an HD63A03XP which is a 64 pin shrink-DIP. I think it's electrically the same, I might be able to kludge it in (e.g. by sticking it on top of the FDC chip or something). All I need to do now is get the pinout of that (I know where to look) and get soldering... Well, unless somebody knows where to find the exact replacement. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 13:13:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:13:04 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512231113040615.0F1D0903@10.0.0.252> On 12/23/2005 at 11:23 AM woodelf wrote: >Just how big are the organs that people are wandering around in, needing >a light? >My guess is a light would be aound if the organ was installed in the >1900's to 1940's >as you would have electricty for the organ and may not have great >lightiing around. These Hammonds are the typical small console instrument. Tone generation is accomplished electromechanically, using metallic spinning "tone wheels" and magnetic pickups. Very clever for the time; the old Hammonds were very light on active electronic devices (tubes/valves), save for the power amplifier. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 12:51:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:51:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: floppy imaging In-Reply-To: <20051222183935.O60861@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 22, 5 07:21:59 pm Message-ID: > > > > You can read multiple IDs during a revolution (200msec) > > > If you don't get 'em all, put in a different delay. > On Thu, 22 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > And what happens if you get a task-switch midway through this? > > I've never really felt a need nor desire to run a multitasking OS while > analyzing diskettes. The best way to multitask is multiple machines. YEs, but the only useable OSes for PCs happen to be multitasking... And I have little enough space here that I really don't want to have to set up another machine just to image disks. If I did that, it certainly wouldn't be a PC, and wouldn't have a 765 as the disk controller. > > > > I grew up with the WD controllers, and found the 8272/765 a real > > disapointment after those :-) > WD is certainly a better match for what WE like to do. But the 765 works > reasonably reliably, and is prob'ly just fine for what SOME people want to > do. The WD controllers are no worse for doing what most people want than the 765. It's therefore a pity IBM picked the 'wrong one' for the first PC. Actually, I think I have a PC-not-quite-comptible here with a 2793 in it (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 12:56:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:56:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP IPC / Thinkjet printhead repair / substitute ? In-Reply-To: <72CBD340-73A9-11DA-AD92-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 23, 5 12:44:17 pm Message-ID: > > > I would like to repair the last remaining problem with my HP IPC. : the > printer. > > Yes, the previous owner did not remove the inkcartridge and the > foil/flatcable connecting printhead to PCB has been etched clean... Ah yes... This is a major problem with all Thinkjets. Ink leakage really ruins that flexiprint. > Any repair possible ? Any remaining source of the Thinkjet ones ? > > I have no trouble extending a Thinkjet foil to fit the IPC, but all > Thinkjets I locate have exactly the same problem... All I can tell you is what you already know, I think. The flexiprint is the same in all Thinkjets (so you don't have to look for a particular interface model). The one in the Integral is longer, but you say you can kludge that (IIRC I'd also raid the connector from the logic board of the donor thinkjet and not try to solder directly to the end of the flexiprint). Thinkjets turn up on E-overpay quite often, but they always seem 'untested' when it comes to actually printing. Which I take to mean that they have a corroded flexiprint (what, cynical, me?). I could get you the HP part number for the carriage/flexiprint assembly (which is how HP supplied it, even though it's not hard to separate them), but you are not going to find one now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 13:09:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:09:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231240.04168.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 12:40:04 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so > > the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested' > > which I took to mean non-working. > > Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my list I > posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more -- when I > attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's been plugged > in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some tech info on the > innards of the thing? There is a scanned technical manual (.pdf) on various web sites, I think it is on bitsavers, for example. Be warned that while it does contain schemaitcs, these are very hard to read (at least the complete one at the back) -- a combination of IMHO too low a reslution at one point in the process (no idea if it was the original manual or the scanner) and a very confusing layout. There are part diagrams to explain the various sections, and these are a lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck, there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it all. But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to. > > <...> > > > With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single 3.5" unit, with a > > 38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8. > > I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-) It's not the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The 'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400 baud. I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux. The makefile and shell scripts need work (at least to run on my machine), but the program compiled OK by hand and does work. I think there's something for MS-DOS too. > > > I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked it, and > > anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 interfaces > > (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial interface to the > > disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable from the 8 pin nini-DIN > > plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a DTE and a second cable with > > a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to do the right swaps and jumpers. > > I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it used > to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific cable wiring > info, assuming I can get this thing working? I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of Satan :-). I really hate wiring them, and the type you can wire (as opposed to moulded ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case to mate with the socket. What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other. I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got a DTE pinout on said plug. And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate crosses and interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the first type of cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable which will like 2 PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10. I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, they are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway just to be sure. [Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's a large UK distributer of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at http://www.rswww.com/] > First I've heard of those. If I can get mine working, that would be a nice > way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under? Well, certianly an old version of linux,, because that what I use. I think I saw reference to an MS-DOS one. A google search for Epson PX8 and/or Epson PF10 should find them. -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 13:23:12 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:23:12 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512231423.12140.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention > that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are > interested in the content. You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing working again, that is... <...> > If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will > let you peek into the startup code a little better. For which chips? <...> > Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 pin > "plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and > a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware). This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely remembering something of the sort, but can't remember the part number, and am pretty sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other sort in various families... > What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX ready, > TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it > was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The > low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in > either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting on > jumper to move the block to either end. Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting. > I've written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on > this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic > Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM > runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read" > and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when > debugging at this level. Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was something I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it might also be useful, too. Got more info up anyplace? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 13:41:08 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:41:08 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231441.08686.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 08:15 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > Other (related) things that I am looking for.... > > 1) The plastic ROM carriers. As am I, as well. Assuming I can get the thing working again, that is. > These are plastic mouldings that you put a DIP-packaged EPROM into, then > crimp the pins over. The same carriers were used in the Tandy M100, and I > think 24-pin versions were used in that Panasonic hand-held machine that > gets mentioned here. I need the 28 pin ones, I think Molex once made them. Interesting tidbit that they were used in those other machines, I didn't know that. > 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 > one already). Do you have a link handy? > The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the cartridge > connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which doesn't > seem to work. First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 13:43:33 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:43:33 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <20051223030948.MYI9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051223030948.MYI9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512231443.33134.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 06:03 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > It's an HD6303X. I can look up all the letters (things like the clock > > rating) if you need them, but that should be enough. In any case, writing > > a disassembler is not going to take me too long if I need to do it. > > I don't have a Hitachi data book handy, although I know there are some > "somewhere" in the workshop - I'm guessing that this is a second-source > of a Motorola 6803, which is essentially a ROMless 6801, which is a > slightly enhanced 6800. Not just a second source, the Hitachi parts are CMOS while the 68xx parts are NMOS, if I'm remembering right. I just looked for my databook on these, and can't find it (too damn much clutter in here :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 13:48:32 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:48:32 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231448.32305.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 01:19 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is > > anybody interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it > > out? No promises as to when, but... > > Of course! Start diggin'... > > If it is for an IBM 2311 or 3330, dig fast. Not IBM. Control Data, maybe? For some reason "Model 40" comes to mind. It's a weird format, very large pages, 11 inches is the _shorter_ dimension. I also remember running across a terminator for one of those, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 13:52:50 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:52:50 -0500 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512231452.50905.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 01:23 pm, woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >I did a lot of organ repair too, from around 1975-85 or thereabouts, and > >that included a fair number of old Hammonds, and I don't recall ever > > bumping into that. > > Just how big are the organs that people are wandering around in, needing > a light? > My guess is a light would be aound if the organ was installed in the > 1900's to 1940's > as you would have electricty for the organ and may not have great > lightiing around. Worst one I ever did in that regard was in a church in Westchester County, NY. The only thing they could tell me over the phone was that it was "a 1940 Wurlitzer". When I got there I found out that the "choir loft" (not very lofty as it was on the same level as the rest of the church) had been built around the organ. I got the huge bench out of the way with some help, stood the full-sized pedalboard up, and removed the panels in the knee space, which did me no good at all. Then I managed to move it a bit, enough to get the back off, which also did me no good at all -- turned out this unit had *no* electronics in it, the tone generators were a bunch of reeds in a box, and that wasn't where the problem was. Next step -- find the rest of it. There was this ladder in a little room behind the altar off to one side. About 2 stories _up_ and it was bendy. I went up there carrying my tube checker and a few tools and a flashlight, pushed the hatch cover aside, and stepped out into the space where the tone cabinets were, only to go *crunch*, *crunch* because the entire floor was covered -- with dead bats! A bunch of new tubes in the tone cabinets fixed the problems. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 14:00:33 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:00:33 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231500.33972.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 02:09 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, > > > so the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested' > > > which I took to mean non-working. > > > > Speaking of which, I have one of those I'd forgotten to include in my > > list I posted a while back. It used to work, doesn't work any more -- > > when I attempt to turn it on I get a low battery message, even if it's > > been plugged in to charge for a long time. Know where I might find some > > tech info on the innards of the thing? > > There is a scanned technical manual (.pdf) on various web sites, I think > it is on bitsavers, for example. Be warned that while it does contain > schemaitcs, these are very hard to read (at least the complete one at the > back) -- a combination of IMHO too low a reslution at one point in the > process (no idea if it was the original manual or the scanner) and a very > confusing layout. Oh joy... > There are part diagrams to explain the various sections, and these are a > lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the > NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck, > there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it > all. > > But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to. Let me see what I can get a hold of. > > <...> > > > > > With it, I got a PF10 floppy drive. This is a single 3.5" unit, with a > > > 38400 baud serial interdace back to the PX8. > > > > I'd love to find a drive for one of those. :-) > > It's not the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The > 'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses > the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port > alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400 > baud. Just being able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice. > I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux. Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use? > The makefile and shell scripts need work (at least to run on my machine), Always. :-) > but the program compiled OK by hand and does work. I think there's something > for MS-DOS too. > > > > I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked > > > it, and anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 > > > interfaces (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial > > > interface to the disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable > > > from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a > > > DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to > > > do the right swaps and jumpers. > > > > I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it > > used to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific > > cable wiring info, assuming I can get this thing working? > > I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of Satan :-). :-D > I really hate wiring them, and the type you can wire (as opposed to moulded > ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case to mate with > the socket. I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be Switchcraft. I still don't want to have to wire them, though. > What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin > mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other. I might have something around here I can chop... > I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got a DTE pinout on said plug. > And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate crosses and > interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the first type of > cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable which will like 2 > PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10. > > I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, they > are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway just > to be sure. Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help. > [Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's a large UK distributer > of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at > http://www.rswww.com/] I've heard that before. > > First I've heard of those. If I can get mine working, that would be a > > nice way to store some data. What pc-based platform do they work under? > > Well, certianly an old version of linux,, because that what I use. I > think I saw reference to an MS-DOS one. A google search for Epson PX8 > and/or Epson PF10 should find them. I did look once a while back, but it's been a while and there's probably more stuff out there now than there was. I guess I'll have another look... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 14:04:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:04:37 -0800 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512231113040615.0F1D0903@10.0.0.252> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512202244.42570.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AB1885.40309@gjcp.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512231113040615.0F1D0903@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512231204370520.0F4C3D2F@10.0.0.252> Somewhat OT, but on the subject of "organs"... A not-very-well-known infomorsel is that the organ maker Rodgers (now owned by Roland) is named after one of its founders, Rodgers Jenkins, a Tektronix engineer, who got interested in electronic tone generation after building an electronic organ from a kit. Jenkins was not the only one--Howard Vollum was a theatre organ aficionado, who had a very sizeable Wurlitzer in his home (a birthday present from his wife). I believe the instrument is now located in the Regent Theatre in Melbourne, Australia. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 23 14:05:34 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:05:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512231448.32305.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512231448.32305.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 23 December 2005 01:19 pm, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is >>> anybody interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it >>> out? No promises as to when, but... >> >> Of course! Start diggin'... >> >> If it is for an IBM 2311 or 3330, dig fast. > > Not IBM. Control Data, maybe? For some reason "Model 40" comes to mind. > It's a weird format, very large pages, 11 inches is the _shorter_ > dimension. Singer? ISTR that Singer had a model 40 drive (14 in disk pack) in their system 10. Possibly using rotary transformer servo like Diablo Systems... > > I also remember running across a terminator for one of those, too. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 23 10:24:18 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:24:18 +0000 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231423.12140.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051223203122.PEGS9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention > > that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are > > interested in the content. > > You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing > working again, that is... I'll dig em out over the holiday and see if I can read them. > > If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will > > let you peek into the startup code a little better. > > For which chips? Lots! ("My day job is producing development tools for a large number of embedded processors). > > Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 pin > > "plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic and > > a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware). > > This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely remembering > something of the sort, but can't remember the part number, and am pretty > sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other sort in various > families... I'd have to look at it to be certain (haven't had to write anything for it in a long time), but I'm pretty certain I used a 6402 - but you could use any of the "hardare programmable" uarts (AY-5-1013, COM2502 etc.) - You don't NEED to use a "hardware programmable" uart, but doing so means that the only thing you need to write is the data register. And with this setup, "writes" are best kept to a minimum :-) > > What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX ready, > > TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this but it > > was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register (The > > low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in > > either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting on > > jumper to move the block to either end. > > Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting. The idea is to have a "monitor" that you can plug into the EPROM socket of just about any machine, and talk to it (assuming that you write code for that particular CPU), and also to assume that the rest of the hardware is unknown, and possibly not working. It's possible to write a simple montor that does not use RAM, however you still need a way to communicate with the debug terminal - since an EPROM socket does not have a -WR line, you can't write in the "normal" sense - also, you don't want to risk contention with something else on the bus. So what I did was to generate selects for two 256 byte pages in the ROM area - reading the top 1/2 of the first page gets me two bits which are the RXready and TXready signals from the UART. Reading the bottom 1/2 of that page gets me the receive data register. Reading the second 256 byte page actually writes the bottom byte of the address to the UART transmit data register - this allows me to read/write to a terminal without having to do anything other than read the EPROM space. This lets me get "inside the bus" and be able to do basic reads and writes on most any system. > > I've written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on > > this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic > > Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM > > runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read" > > and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when > > debugging at this level. > > Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was something > I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it might also be > useful, too. > > Got more info up anyplace? No more info about my "ROM socket monitor", as I built it a long time ago, and don't even have schematics (at least I don't know where they would be) - but it is pretty simple and should not take much to replicate. As far as tools, assemblers, disassemblers, compilers, monitors etc. go - these are described and have downloadable demos on my comercial site (www.dunfield.com) - Yes, I generally expect people to pay if they want a complete package, however I often give individual component tools to people who are doing a worthy cause (like fixing a classic computer) and have a specific need. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 14:32:46 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:32:46 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: <200512231448.32305.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512231532.46314.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 03:05 pm, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 23 December 2005 01:19 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is > >>> anybody interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it > >>> out? No promises as to when, but... > >> > >> Of course! Start diggin'... > >> > >> If it is for an IBM 2311 or 3330, dig fast. > > > > Not IBM. Control Data, maybe? For some reason "Model 40" comes to > > mind. It's a weird format, very large pages, 11 inches is the _shorter_ > > dimension. > > Singer? ISTR that Singer had a model 40 drive (14 in disk pack) in their > system 10. Possibly using rotary transformer servo like Diablo Systems... No, these were single-platter setups, typically one fixed and one removable. I had one repair to look at that was basically a "Wang Word Processing System" or somesuch, and there was a mini that I tried (not very successfully) to deal with called a "GRI" -- the company was out of business when I came into the picture in 1985, and they had a guy who would come in from out of state from time to time to tweak things. I still remember having to find exactly 5.06 volts across one specific capacitor to make things work right. That had four racks, and drives in two of them, and it was a much nicer setup than the one I'd encountered besides, which was a "pedestal" of some sort, took two of us to move it. The rack-mounted units in the mini were in drawers that you could pull out, and I think tilt down at full extension. I remember one time they started having all sorts of trouble with that machine, and it turned out that the temp in the machine room had gone up by a few degrees, due to a bad belt on the outside portion of the a/c that was slipping. Fussy, that thing was! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 14:39:50 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:39:50 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <20051223203122.PEGS9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051223003053.YDEW9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051223203122.PEGS9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512231539.50878.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 11:24 am, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will > > > mention that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you > > > are interested in the content. > > > > You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing > > working again, that is... > > I'll dig em out over the holiday and see if I can read them. No rush, I still need to get that thing working... > > > If you can get the exact CPU type, I may have a disassembler that will > > > let you peek into the startup code a little better. > > > > For which chips? > > Lots! ("My day job is producing development tools for a large number of > embedded processors). Hmm. > > > Lastly, one little tool I have in my "homebuilt gadgets" box is a 28 > > > pin "plug" attached to a little board with a ROM socket ,a bit of logic > > > and a really dumb UART (the kind you setup in hardware). > > > > This sounds interesting. Which UART would that be? I'm vaguely > > remembering something of the sort, but can't remember the part number, > > and am pretty sure I don't have any, though I have lots of the other > > sort in various families... > > I'd have to look at it to be certain (haven't had to write anything for it > in a long time), but I'm pretty certain I used a 6402 - but you could use > any of the "hardare programmable" uarts (AY-5-1013, COM2502 etc.) - You > don't NEED to use a "hardware programmable" uart, but doing so means that > the only thing you need to write is the data register. And with this setup, > "writes" are best kept to a minimum :-) Yeah, and it sure simplifies things when you don't need all that extra "stuff" that the programmable ones give you. I should get a hold of a couple of those chpis one of these days. Is that 6402 a single-supply part? I guess I need to fetch a few more datasheets... > > > What the logic does is map one 256 byte block to read the status (RX > > > ready, TX ready) and Data registers (you don't need 256 bytes for this > > > but it was easy), and one 256 byte block to write the data register > > > (The low byte of the address is the data you write). To make it work in > > > either "high vector" or "low vector" systems, it's worth putting on > > > jumper to move the block to either end. > > > > Hm. I'm not sure I grasp this completely, but it sounds interesting. > > The idea is to have a "monitor" that you can plug into the EPROM socket > of just about any machine, and talk to it (assuming that you write code for > that particular CPU), and also to assume that the rest of the hardware is > unknown, and possibly not working. > > It's possible to write a simple montor that does not use RAM, however you > still need a way to communicate with the debug terminal - since an EPROM > socket does not have a -WR line, you can't write in the "normal" sense - > also, you don't want to risk contention with something else on the bus. > So what I did was to generate selects for two 256 byte pages in the > ROM area - reading the top 1/2 of the first page gets me two bits > which are the RXready and TXready signals from the UART. Reading > the bottom 1/2 of that page gets me the receive data register. Reading > the second 256 byte page actually writes the bottom byte of the > address to the UART transmit data register - this allows me to read/write > to a terminal without having to do anything other than read the EPROM > space. This lets me get "inside the bus" and be able to do basic reads > and writes on most any system. I like it. :-) > > > I've written a number of "Hardware Debug Monitors" which work on > > > this board, and don't use any RAM which enable me to to basic > > > Display/Write memory operations - With this tool, as long as the ROM > > > runs, you can "get inside" the BUS - Btw, I also include "loop read" > > > and "loop write" function - terminated by RESET - very handy when > > > debugging at this level. > > > > Since I have a whole pile of assorted 8-bit parts a ROM emulator was > > something I was thinking about. This stuff you describe sounds as if it > > might also be useful, too. > > > > Got more info up anyplace? > > No more info about my "ROM socket monitor", as I built it a long time ago, > and don't even have schematics (at least I don't know where they would be) > - but it is pretty simple and should not take much to replicate. I think I've got a better idea of what you're talking about now... > As far as tools, assemblers, disassemblers, compilers, monitors etc. go - > these are described and have downloadable demos on my comercial site > (www.dunfield.com) - Yes, I generally expect people to pay if they want a > complete package, however I often give individual component tools to people > who are doing a worthy cause (like fixing a classic computer) and have a > specific need. I think I need to get some hardware together first, and maybe come up with some kind of a simple eprom emulator... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 23 14:53:39 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:53:39 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... Message-ID: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> Just want to send everyone here my best wishes for a love-filled holiday with friends and family, and a fruitful new year collection-wise. mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 15:09:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512231241.11818.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512231241.11818.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20051223125652.U2868@shell.lmi.net> On Thursday 22 December 2005 06:14 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > Real disk drives are 14". Almost real drives are 8". Everything smaller is > a doorstop. I have a damaged 24" platter that I have been told came from a 1620 (unlikely), or a 1401 (more likely). Since it isn't 14", and therefore "real", what would you call it? From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Dec 23 15:28:38 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:28:38 -0500 Subject: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine References: <005201c6051b$8f76c7e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <43A7881C.6050204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001b01c60808$54dc4480$0100a8c0@screamer> Ha, There are far more TRS-80's than Imlacs of any type, and most were "gr'Imlacs". I have an original 'alpha' imlac, without long vector support. Its a bit more rare than you think. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Oldest serial number (was: Oldest machine > Bob Shannon wrote: > >> My 1969 Imlac PDS-1 has a serial number of 2. > > My very first ebay purchase about five or six years ago was a TRS-80 model > 4. It wasn't known to me at the time of the sale, but it was serial number > 430 or so (low to mid 400s). UPS however managed to destroy it, but that > isn't the point. > > Considering the volume of machines tandy made, my serial #43x trs-80 had a > lower serial number than your imlac in terms of number of units produced. > Therefore, it was more rare. Want to swap? :-) > > > From rcini at optonline.net Fri Dec 23 16:17:56 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:17:56 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and healthy holiday and a Happy New Year. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 3:54 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: It's a most wonderful time... Just want to send everyone here my best wishes for a love-filled holiday with friends and family, and a fruitful new year collection-wise. mike From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 23 12:21:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:21:15 +0000 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231539.50878.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20051223203122.PEGS9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051223222748.QRZU9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > I'd have to look at it to be certain (haven't had to write anything for it > > in a long time), but I'm pretty certain I used a 6402 - but you could use > > any of the "hardare programmable" uarts (AY-5-1013, COM2502 etc.) - You > > don't NEED to use a "hardware programmable" uart, but doing so means that > > the only thing you need to write is the data register. And with this setup, > > "writes" are best kept to a minimum :-) > > Yeah, and it sure simplifies things when you don't need all that extra > "stuff" that the programmable ones give you. I should get a hold of a couple > of those chpis one of these days. Is that 6402 a single-supply part? I > guess I need to fetch a few more datasheets... IIRC the 6402 (Hitachi) is an updated CMOS AY-5-1013 (which are very common). Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 16:40:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:40:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231423.12140.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 02:23:12 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so > > > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will mention > > that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you are > > interested in the content. > > You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing > working again, that is... Again, I think one of the web sites I found wit google (either searching for Epson PX8 or Epson PF10 had some ROM images. Things like Wordstar. I haven't looked at them yet (to be honst, I have little use for 'business' applications on this machine). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 16:48:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:48:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231441.08686.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 02:41:08 pm Message-ID: [PX8, etc ROM carriers] > Interesting tidbit that they were used in those other machines, I didn't know > that. About 20 years ago, back when Maplin (UK Electronic shop) actually sold enough components to design something with, and when ZX81s were still in use, I designed an interface for the school's 81 (8 bit ADC, digital I/O lines). I used some connectors that Maplin called 'Multicon', but which were actually Molex 0.062" things. Anyway, Maplin were out of stock, and didn't know when they'd get any more. I actually called Molex to ask if there were any other distributors for said connectors, and they gave me some names and sent me their catalog. I am sure those carriers (and the sockets they fit into) were in there. In fact I think I asked many of the distributors if they carried them. None did from what I remember. I wonder if they were almost a standard at one time. > > > 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 > > one already). > > Do you have a link handy? It's on Bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/, but use one of the listed mirror sites if you can). Go to the document archive, it's in the 'epson' directory. Warning: It's big! > > > The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the cartridge > > connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which doesn't > > seem to work. > > First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well. I don't know the origins. It was in the machine when I bought it at a radio rally (hamfest) about 15 years ago. From what I rmember, the seller had a pile of them, I think all the same spec. In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT, CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools. Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 17:10:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231500.33972.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 03:00:33 pm Message-ID: > > There are part diagrams to explain the various sections, and these are a > > lot easier to follow. THe PSU is not at all simple (and depends on the > > NiCd to act as a shut regulator on the main logic supply line). Heck, > > there's even a 4-bit microcontroller and a 6 bit ADC in the middle of it > > all. > > > > But I can try to talk you through it if you want me to. > > Let me see what I can get a hold of. I've jsut cured a problem with the PSU section of my PX8. The fualt with mine was that you connected power (actually a 5V bnech supply to the battery connector [1]), turned on the power switch and pressed the sub-CPU reset button (in the ROM compartment), and it came up fine, everything worked. But if you turned it off at the power switch, it wouldn't come on again unless you did the full reset (clearing memory, etc). It turned out there is a supply line that is always-on, to keep the RAM (actually DRAM!), its controller, the PSU-control micro, etc alive. This can be switched between the main battery and a backup battery on the PCB, and one of the transistors in that circuit was open-circuit base-emitter. A new BC807 (first SMD PNP transistor I found) got it going again. [1] If anyone needs to make up a battery pack for the PX8, or a cable to link the battery connector to a bench supply, sockets to fit the connector on the PX8 mainboard are available from RS components in the UK. Use 311-6209 housings with 311-6439 terminals > > It's not the same, but there are various drive emulators for PCs. The > > 'serial' port on the PX8 is at RS232 levels, and the disk drive just uses > > the TxD and RxD pins (it's a subset of the pinout of the RS232 port > > alongside it, you can use the same cables, essentially). It runs at 38400 > > baud. > > Just being able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice. Talking of that, is the protocol used by FLINK documented anywhere? (FLINK is a program in the utilities ROM of both the PX4 and PX8 that seems to do file transfer over the RS232 port). I've heard rumours for a version in C for unix machines, but can't seem to find it anywhere. Anyway, the disk emulaotr program I found was called vfloppy13.tgz. The archive is vig (about 300K) becuase it includes 3 disk images that you might need. The linux part of the system is GPLed (no flames, OK...) > > > I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux. > > Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use? Very old Debian. > > > > I had to make up my own cable, but I have checked and double-checked > > > > it, and anyway it works fine to link a PX8 to a PX4 via the RS232 > > > > interfaces (essentially the same pinout as the 'high speed' serial > > > > interface to the disk drive). In fact what I did was make up a cable > > > > from the 8 pin nini-DIN plug to fit the PX8 to a DB25 plug,, wired as a > > > > DTE and a second cable with a DB25 socket to a 8 pin mini-DIN, wired to > > > > do the right swaps and jumpers. > > > > > > I got a couple of connectors a while back, but my eyesight isn't what it > > > used to be, so I never did make up any cables. Do you have specific > > > cable wiring info, assuming I can get this thing working? > > > > I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of Satan :-). > > :-D > > > I really hate wiring them, and the type you can wire (as opposed to moulded > > ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case to mate with > > the socket. > > I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be Switchcraft. > I still don't want to have to wire them, though. > > > What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin > > mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other. FWIW, the RS cables are 463-518 > > I might have something around here I can chop... > > > I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got a DTE pinout on said plug. > > And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate crosses and > > interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the first type of > > cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable which will like 2 > > PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10. > > > > I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, they > > are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway just > > to be sure. > > Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help. The PX8 serial port conenctions are pretty sane, actually, and sort-of follow the RS232 order. I think the pinout is in the user manual (it's certainly in the the technical manual), as are diagrams for the standard cables (again, those are certainly in the technical manual. Anyway, here are the pins (and the colours of that RS cable I mentioned) PX8 pin Signal Colour RS232 Pin 1 Signal Ground Black 7 2 TxD White 2 3 RxD Red 3 4 RTS Yellow 4 5 CTS Purple 5 6 DSR Blue 6 7 DTR Green 20 8 CD Brown 8 The pin numbers are actually the same as on the HX20, which used a full-sized 8 pin DIN plug. It made a lot of sense on that machine, because 3 pin, 5 pin (type A) and 7 pin DIN plugs will fit the 8 pin socket. A 3 pin plug gave yopu Gnd, TxD, RxD, a 5 pin plug added RTS and CTS, a 7 pin plug added DSR and DTR, and finally the 8 pin plug added CD. Every possbile connector gave a useful subset of the signals. > > [Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's a large UK distributer > > of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at > > http://www.rswww.com/] > > I've heard that before. If you want to annoy them, call them 'Radiospares'. They started out with that name many years ago, but changed their name in 1972 (I think) to RS components because they wanted to get away from the iamge of only supplying parts to fix radios. But every old-time engineer and scientist in the UK will call them 'Radiospares'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 17:29:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:29:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Dec 23, 5 05:17:56 pm Message-ID: > > Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and healthy > holiday and a Happy New Year. Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or whatever else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their families. May 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great hacks. One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I suspect I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand and a probe in the other, as usual. -tony From news at computercollector.com Fri Dec 23 17:37:56 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:37:56 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <000801c60819$e70bc270$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Right on, Mike. Happy Festivus to my fellow New Yorkers, Happy Chanukah to my tribespeople, and... oh yeah, there was something about some guy's birthday too. :) And here's to happy collecting in the year 11111010110. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 3:54 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: It's a most wonderful time... Just want to send everyone here my best wishes for a love-filled holiday with friends and family, and a fruitful new year collection-wise. mike From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 23 17:48:25 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:48:25 +0000 Subject: Atari Mega ST - what exactly have I got? Message-ID: <43AC8CC9.3000500@gjcp.net> Hi all, Through the wonder of Freecycle, I've just picked up an Atari Mega ST. There are some interesting mods inside it, and I'm not sure what some of them are... Everything seems to be liberally hot-melt glued together. I don't want to start picking it all apart. The 4M upgrade I sussed easily - even more than 12 years after I last did one, I recognise the board with the video IC and it doesn't take much to suss the 4 1Mx8 simms. There is a board with two PALs, some small caps and a small electrolytic cap. It seems to be unmarked. The PALs may be something like 16AS255 - there is paint on them. One has one stripe of silver paint, the other has two. A white 10-pin connector goes off to some leads. The ones I've figured out are: Green wire goes to pin 4 of the video socket - mono detect/clock according to the manual Blue wire to /RTS on U15, one of the UARTs Brown to the cathode of D18 (no idea) One red and one black are clearly +5 and ground the other black, along with white, orange and yellow vanish off to below the PSU the remaining red splits into two thin white wires, one going to a pin near OSC1 (may not be connected) and one ending up near the memory. There is also a board marked "Compu Software 1992". There appear to be ROMs soldered to it, it is soldered to the CPU via another socket, and stuck in the top is a board marked C103261, with a 74LS74, a small capacitor, and a row of pins marked 12 - 18 that plug into pins 12-18 if the CPU socket. A red wire runs off to a jumper pad near U39. Don't know if anyone recognises any of this, but any insight would be great. I haven't fired it up yet because I don't have a keyboard cable - trip to Maplin tomorrow... Gordon. From rcini at optonline.net Fri Dec 23 17:48:58 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:48:58 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <000801c60819$e70bc270$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <00a001c6081b$71957fc0$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Another Festivus celebrant? Who's going to perform the Feat of Strength in your house? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 6:38 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: It's a most wonderful time... Right on, Mike. Happy Festivus to my fellow New Yorkers, Happy Chanukah to my tribespeople, and... oh yeah, there was something about some guy's birthday too. :) And here's to happy collecting in the year 11111010110. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of M H Stein Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 3:54 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: It's a most wonderful time... Just want to send everyone here my best wishes for a love-filled holiday with friends and family, and a fruitful new year collection-wise. mike From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Dec 23 17:51:09 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:51:09 -0800 Subject: Oldest Machine Redux Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: That made we wonder... what's the oldest *operational* digital machine owned by anyone on this list? Although I suppose it's hard to define 'machine' - something with RAM, I/O in some form, and at least one CPU (what the heck do you call a CPU when it's no longer central?) I remember the discussions a while back about age of list members, but I don't recall ever seeing a similar one about age of collections! Not having all the peripherals that would have perhaps originally gone with the machine is acceptable I think (I can see some people having room for a mainframe and control desk, but probably not for a bazillion tape / drum units to go with it!). But other than that, make it complete (i.e. things like the single rack of EDSAC that we have - whilst perhaps "operational" - doesn't count :) (I'd quite like to hear responses from people with analogue machines too, but someone else will be able to define qualifying rules much better than I can) Just out of curiosity! cheers Jules I don't have the oldest, I'm certain, but to throw my hat in the ring: A Control Data 160-A manufactured in 1962. Has an Argonne Labs property sticker on it. Still has original manufacturing log showing all ECOs installed in factory and field. And of course it is still operational - several list members have seen it run. Internal paper tape reader and punch are operational. Has two external peripherals, 161-A I/O typewriter ( not working but in restoration ) and 167-2 Card Reader (Operational). There are a few vacuum tube machines out there, so surely there is one working someplace - an LPG-30, RPC-4000 or G-15? Those are all late '50's, so would qualify for oldest. By the way to answer someone's question, all of my equipment is transistor & diode logic. It predates ICs by several years. Core memory started with vacuum tubes (or valves, if you prefer), moved to transistors and finally ICs at the end of the era. I saw only a few commercial core memories with ICs. ICs meant RAM was feasible, so there was a very narrow window of Core and ICs. Many of those moved over to RAM in the middle of the production runs. I think I still have an ECS board that is a hybrid - can be built with either Core or RAM. I was told that the origin of Core was from looking like Apple slices after it had been cored. Apple corers were still available in the '50s and many homes had one. If you cored an apple, then sliced it, you get a disk with a hole cut out. I know my grandmother baked pies with both slices and wedges. The wedges in years of plenty, the slices in lean times. And dried apple slices were sold in the stores as a snack. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 23 18:06:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:06:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Core and ICs In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 23, 5 03:51:09 pm Message-ID: > By the way to answer someone's question, all of my equipment is = > transistor & > diode logic. It predates ICs by several years. Core memory started = > with > vacuum tubes (or valves, if you prefer), moved to transistors and = > finally > ICs at the end of the era. I saw only a few commercial core memories = > with > ICs. ICs meant RAM was feasible, so there was a very narrow window of = > Core > and ICs. Many of those moved over to RAM in the middle of the = I have more machines with core + ICs that core + discretes only.... Core + discrrete transsitors/diodes : HP9100B Casio AL1000 Core + ICs (mostly TTL) Philips P850 DEC PDP8/e DEC PDP11/10 Other DEC Unibus Core memory planes + drivers Casio AL2000 DG Noav 1200 HP2100A Remmber core was non-volatile which gave it an advantage over semiconductor RAM in some applications. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 23 18:15:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:15:42 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: References: <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <20051223191542.1c4cc3f2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:29:16 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and healthy > > holiday and a Happy New Year. > > Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or whatever > else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their families. May > 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great hacks. > > One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I suspect > I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand and a probe > in the other, as usual. > > -tony For me, anyways, that is a recreation, and hence a holiday activity. From news at computercollector.com Fri Dec 23 18:09:55 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:09:55 -0500 Subject: The year in review... Message-ID: <000f01c6081e$5ecd9410$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, ...Just published the year's final issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. Not a subscriber? Then read our "Year in review" article at http://www.snarc.net/c-sum2005.php ... over and out. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Dec 23 18:15:55 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:15:55 -0800 Subject: Old Disk Drives Message-ID: > Somewhere in my storage unit I have service data for one of those, is anybody > interested in that enough to make it worth my while to dig it out? No > promises as to when, but... Of course! Start diggin'... If it is for an IBM 2311 or 3330, dig fast. William Donzelli Do you have a unit to repair or just want an old manual as a collectible? I know that I still my IBM 1311 manuals because they had all my training notes in it. CDC used 1311's until they reverse engineered it and built their 852. (The 852 could plug in as a 1311 replacement. The 853 used CDC's own interface. The 854 was a double density version, an incredible 10 MB stack of disks - sarcasm intended. (The removeable disk stack was numbered 851.) Not certain if the 2311 manual survive the last move. If it did, it goes to Al when I find it. Billy From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 23 18:22:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:22:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051223162208.D11013@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I suspect > I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand and a probe > in the other, as usual. Is there ANYTHING that you'd rather be doing? Happy Humbug, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 23 18:43:21 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:43:21 +0000 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and healthy >>holiday and a Happy New Year. > > > Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or whatever > else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their families. May > 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great hacks. Don't forget Hogswatch. Gordon. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 23 18:55:03 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:55:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: GRI Message-ID: <20051224005503.40B60192824@bitsavers.org> > Singer? ISTR that Singer had a model 40 drive (14 in disk pack) in their > system 10. Possibly using rotary transformer servo like Diablo Systems... No, these were single-platter setups, typically one fixed and one removable. I had one repair to look at that was basically a "Wang Word Processing System" or somesuch, and there was a mini that I tried (not very successfully) to deal with called a "GRI" -- the company was out of business when I came into the picture in 1985, and they had a guy who would come in from out of state from time to time to tweak things. ----------- The follow-on to the Diablo 31 was the 40. It was 5mb, 5440 style packs. I'm pretty sure the 11x17 docs are on bitsavers (I know that I've scanned it..) Any addtional information on the GRI 909 that isn't up on bitsavers already would be of interest to Bob Supnik, too.. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Dec 23 18:59:00 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:59:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're > *one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though > space and power are about as important for me :^( > > BTW, have you ever figured out what tapes the museums collection has, that Tim > doesn't have up on his site? As far as the PDP-10 software archives go ( http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ) the collection grew by leaps and bounds in the late 90's and 2000/2001 but since then there have only been a very few tapes added. It should be noted that the RCS/RI tapes formed the initial part of the collection and they were very cooperative in getting this stuff to me and onto the net (thanks to all of them and particularly Megan). The CHM's software curator posts here, and I'm occasionally in contact with others who volunteer at the CHM and elsewhere, but I've made no progress ever in getting them to even get me a list or partial inventory of what tapes/software are in their collections. I get the impression that they've been so completely overwhelmed by the task that they don't know where to start, but I'm sure I'm oversimplifying things. I had hoped that my PDP-10 archives would spur others to "empty the closet" and get all the stuff that is free redistributable or covered by the 36-bit hobbyist license out and in the open, and it had some effect but not as wide as I wanted. Tim. From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 18:55:42 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:55:42 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231955.42334.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 05:48 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > [PX8, etc ROM carriers] > > > Interesting tidbit that they were used in those other machines, I didn't > > know that. > > About 20 years ago, back when Maplin (UK Electronic shop) actually sold > enough components to design something with, and when ZX81s were still in > use, I designed an interface for the school's 81 (8 bit ADC, digital I/O > lines). I used some connectors that Maplin called 'Multicon', but which > were actually Molex 0.062" things. > > Anyway, Maplin were out of stock, and didn't know when they'd get any > more. I actually called Molex to ask if there were any other distributors > for said connectors, and they gave me some names and sent me their > catalog. I am sure those carriers (and the sockets they fit into) were in > there. In fact I think I asked many of the distributors if they carried > them. None did from what I remember. > > I wonder if they were almost a standard at one time. Hmm. Maybe some NOS exists someplace... > > > 2) Is the PX4 technical manual on the net anywhere (I've found the PX8 > > > one already). > > > > Do you have a link handy? > > It's on Bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/, but use one of the listed > mirror sites if you can). Go to the document archive, it's in the 'epson' > directory. Warning: It's big! Fetching the first chapter as I type this. > > > The thing I need most at the moment is the pinout of the cartridge > > > connector. I have a 3rd party 512K (!) RAMdisk module there which > > > doesn't seem to work. > > > > First I've heard of any third-party stuff for that machine as well. > > I don't know the origins. It was in the machine when I bought it at a > radio rally (hamfest) about 15 years ago. From what I rmember, the seller > had a pile of them, I think all the same spec. > > In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT, > CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is > in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have > been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools. > Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product. The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three altogether. There's a "wedge" on the machine, which I think has its own battery besides the main one and I think there's also one other one inside there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there. I'd collected a bit of info on those machines, but not nearly enough, and that was before I had 'net access. I should probably do something with it one of these days, get it going again. It was a fun little machine, and a nice keyboard, that PX8... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 18:56:29 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:56:29 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512231956.29310.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 05:40 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thursday 22 December 2005 03:24 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on > > > > E-bay, so > > > > > > I don't hve the PF10 so I can't offer specific help, however I will > > > mention that I have a few of the application ROMs for the PX-8 if you > > > are interested in the content. > > > > You got my attention with that one! Assuming that I can get this thing > > working again, that is... > > Again, I think one of the web sites I found wit google (either searching > for Epson PX8 or Epson PF10 had some ROM images. Things like Wordstar. I > haven't looked at them yet (to be honst, I have little use for 'business' > applications on this machine). One of the applications on mine is "Portable Wordstar", which I use for smallish text files, mostly. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 23 19:15:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:15:23 -0500 Subject: Core and ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051223201523.4ac86854.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:06:02 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > By the way to answer someone's question, all of my equipment is = > > transistor & > > diode logic. It predates ICs by several years. Core memory started = > > with > > vacuum tubes (or valves, if you prefer), moved to transistors and = > > finally > > ICs at the end of the era. I saw only a few commercial core memories = > > with > > ICs. ICs meant RAM was feasible, so there was a very narrow window of = > > Core > > and ICs. Many of those moved over to RAM in the middle of the = > > I have more machines with core + ICs that core + discretes only.... > > Core + discrrete transsitors/diodes : > HP9100B > Casio AL1000 > > Core + ICs (mostly TTL) > Philips P850 > DEC PDP8/e > DEC PDP11/10 > Other DEC Unibus Core memory planes + drivers > Casio AL2000 > DG Noav 1200 > HP2100A > > Remmber core was non-volatile which gave it an advantage over > semiconductor RAM in some applications. > Core is also more 'radiation hardened' for certain applications. For space or military use, for instance. Not as important now but it was for a long while. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Dec 23 19:09:53 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:09:53 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor Message-ID: Teo Zenios wrote: > With Seagate to purchase Maxtor (which purchased Quantum not so long ago) I > started thinking of all the HD makers that bit the dust ( Micropilis and IBM > comes to mind since I have a few of each on the spare parts shelf shelf). > What do you guys think of the ever shrinking HD manufacturers, and what were > some of the older good ones that are no more? I first entered the disk drive business with the Bryant disks used on the CDC 6600. Then worked on all the disk drives that CDC made over the years, but specialized on the floppies and cartridge drives. During this time, I kept a chart above my desk of all the companies that made or tried to make disk drives as a reminder of how fragile the market was. Some that came and went include Apple, TI, HP, Siemens, Nixdorf (before it merged with Siemens), DEC, Century, NCR, Burroughs, ISS, Unisys, Priam and so on. The last time I updated the list, it broke 100 names. Now there are only Hitachi, Seagate, WD, Toshiba and Fujitsu. There are a few more, but they don't register on the statistics - for example, Cornice and Magicstor. A goodly portion of my career has been spent on disk drives. I've worked for many of the companies that are frequently slammed or praised on this list. So I try to stay out of the religious arguments of who made crap, who made good drives. I have old drives that lasted 20 years and decorative bricks that didn't go for 2 days. And today, I still am still surrounded with drives: right now I'm working on 1" drives for MP3 players. And buying cell phones to move to the next generation of interfaces and form factors. My first disk drive had 1 mega-characters (6 bits instead of bytes). Now 1 terabyte drives are coming near term. So it's very hard to pick any favorites or villains. The one constant in all this technology change is: there is a very good living to be made repairing computers and electronics. Billy From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 19:08:10 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:08:10 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512232008.10927.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 06:10 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Just being able to get info into and out of that machine would be nice. > > Talking of that, is the protocol used by FLINK documented anywhere? > (FLINK is a program in the utilities ROM of both the PX4 and PX8 that > seems to do file transfer over the RS232 port). I've heard rumours for a > version in C for unix machines, but can't seem to find it anywhere. Looking in my archives, I show (in more or less alphabetical order) the following: EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have one) EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as FILINK (That one is assembly source) FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms ...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking for? > Anyway, the disk emulaotr program I found was called vfloppy13.tgz. The > archive is vig (about 300K) becuase it includes 3 disk images that you > might need. The linux part of the system is GPLed (no flames, OK...) > > > > I've downloaded a disk emulator for linux. > > > > Pretty much what I run here -- which distro do you use? > > Very old Debian. Slackware here. <...> > > > I regard mini-DIN plugs as one of the offspring of Satan :-). > > > > > :-D > > > > > I really hate wiring them, and the type you can wire (as opposed to > > > moulded ones) are often too large tor fit through the hole in the case > > > to mate with the socket. > > > > I do believe these will fit, and better yet, they appear to be > > Switchcraft. I still don't want to have to wire them, though. > > > > > What I did was buy 3 cables from RS components which had an 8 pin > > > mini-DIN plug moulded on one end and bare wires at the other. > > FWIW, the RS cables are 463-518 > > > I might have something around here I can chop... > > > > > I wired 2 of them to DB25 plugs, so that you got a DTE pinout on said > > > plug. And the last one I wired to a DB25 socket with the apporpiate > > > crosses and interconnections so that when I pluged that one one of the > > > first type of cable, I got a crossover mini-DIN to mini-DIN cable > > > which will like 2 PX8s (or PX4s), or link a machine to the PF10. > > > > > > I can look up the wiring colours used in those RS cables if you like, > > > they are in the catalogue/on the web site, but I buzzed them out anyway > > > just to be sure. > > > > Just the pin-to-pin connections would be of great help. > > The PX8 serial port conenctions are pretty sane, actually, and sort-of > follow the RS232 order. I think the pinout is in the user manual (it's > certainly in the the technical manual), as are diagrams for the standard > cables (again, those are certainly in the technical manual. Ok, downloading still... > Anyway, here are the pins (and the colours of that RS cable I mentioned) > PX8 pin Signal Colour RS232 Pin > 1 Signal Ground Black 7 > 2 TxD White 2 > 3 RxD Red 3 > 4 RTS Yellow 4 > 5 CTS Purple 5 > 6 DSR Blue 6 > 7 DTR Green 20 > 8 CD Brown 8 > > The pin numbers are actually the same as on the HX20, which used a > full-sized 8 pin DIN plug. It made a lot of sense on that machine, > because 3 pin, 5 pin (type A) and 7 pin DIN plugs will fit the 8 pin > socket. Yes, I often used a 5-pin for video when working on c64s, which could have either that 5-pin or an 8-pin socket. > A 3 pin plug gave yopu Gnd, TxD, RxD, a 5 pin plug added RTS and > CTS, a 7 pin plug added DSR and DTR, and finally the 8 pin plug added CD. > Every possbile connector gave a useful subset of the signals. I like that kind of thinking! > > > [Note for US readers. RS is not Radio Shack. It's a large UK > > > distributer of electronic components, tools, materials, etc. Look at > > > http://www.rswww.com/] > > > > I've heard that before. > > If you want to annoy them, call them 'Radiospares'. They started out > with that name many years ago, but changed their name in 1972 (I think) > to RS components because they wanted to get away from the iamge of only > supplying parts to fix radios. But every old-time engineer and scientist > in the UK will call them 'Radiospares'. Heh. I don't think it likely that I'll be dealing with them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From m_thompson at ids.net Fri Dec 23 19:11:53 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:11:53 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20051222122310.03a36368@155.212.1.107> <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051223201021.03a4b6e0@155.212.1.107> All of the 1/2" tapes from RCS/RI are on Tim's site. We were talking last Saturday about putting an RL02 controller on the KL-10s 11/40 front end so we could copy all of the DecTapes to other media. That will be a project for next year. At 12:44 PM 12/22/2005, you wrote: >Michael Thompson wrote: > > I don't have the serial numbers for a bunch of KS-10s that are in > > storage, including yours William. I won't be surprised if more KS and > > KLs show up. > >While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're >*one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though >space and power are about as important for me :^( > >BTW, have you ever figured out what tapes the museums collection has, that Tim >doesn't have up on his site? > > Zane Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 23 19:15:36 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:15:36 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512232015.36197.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 23 December 2005 08:09 pm, Billy Pettit wrote: > So it's very hard to pick any favorites or villains. The one constant in > all this technology change is: > there is a very good living to be made repairing computers and > electronics. Oh really? I seem to have had some trouble doing that, lately. Like the past 10-12 years or so. But then, I haven't got a lot of paper qualifications of any sort, and haven't really found my niche yet either... Suggestions or conversations on this issue welcomed, on or offlist as you prefer. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From m_thompson at ids.net Fri Dec 23 19:22:21 2005 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:22:21 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20051223201931.03a4a8c8@155.212.1.107> The RP06 that I use is very reliable. I rewired it for 220VAC single phase. Getting packs that work well is a different story. I think that the oxide is starting to come off on some of the packs that I have. After a few hours use it gets read/write errors and the heads get dirty. TU45 tape drives are a pain in the a. At 06:13 PM 12/22/2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > While the CPU's are showing up, how about Disk and Tape drives? They're > > *one* of the reasons I've never looked into getting a real PDP-10, though > > space and power are about as important for me :^( > >Yes, I am looking for disk and tape that will work. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Dec 23 19:38:20 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:38:20 -0800 Subject: Core and ICs Message-ID: Scott Stevens wrote: >I have more machines with core + ICs that core + discretes only.... >Core is also more 'radiation hardened' for certain applications. >For space or military use, for instance. Not as important now >but it was for a long while. No argument about there being ICs and core. I only pointed out the time frame wasn't long. The first core machine I remember seeing was the 1103 and it used vacuum tubes. (1K by 36 bits). Using it as a reference up to the last Cray designs with core and transistors, there is a long time frame, at least 2 decades . Core and ICs made the transition. But with ICs came the 1101, then the 1103. After that, RAM exploded and it was a rare machine that stayed with core for very long. Core died quickly, relative to it's life span. Core is still used in a few applications, mainly space. But another technology made most of the early trips to the planets, a variation of core called plated wire. Some of those are 30+ years old and still haven't dropped a bit! And then there are the EMP hardened technologies that still can't be discussed, even today. Billy From Useddec at aol.com Fri Dec 23 19:54:25 2005 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:54:25 EST Subject: PDP-10s Message-ID: <277.2169df8.30de0451@aol.com> When is the last time the abs filter was changed? I have an extra set of heads and some other parts. Paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 23 20:27:47 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:27:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> <20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 7:59 PM -0500 12/23/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: >As far as the PDP-10 software archives go ( http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ ) >the collection grew by leaps and bounds in the late 90's and 2000/2001 but >since then there have only been a very few tapes added. It should be >noted that the RCS/RI tapes formed the initial part of the collection >and they were very cooperative in getting this stuff to me and onto the >net (thanks to all of them and particularly Megan). I could have sworn it was someone at RCS/RI, that said a couple years ago that they had stuff that wasn't in your your archive. >The CHM's software curator posts here, and I'm occasionally in contact >with others who volunteer at the CHM and elsewhere, but I've made no progress >ever in getting them to even get me a list or partial inventory of what >tapes/software are in their collections. I get the impression that they've >been so completely overwhelmed by the task that they don't know where >to start, but I'm sure I'm oversimplifying things. It would definitely be nice to know what is there, am I remembering correctly that DEC/Compaq shipped them what remained of the DEC archives? >I had hoped that my PDP-10 archives would spur others to "empty the closet" >and get all the stuff that is free redistributable or covered by the >36-bit hobbyist license out and in the open, and it had some effect >but not as wide as I wanted. Johnny thinks that there are tapes besides what he sent you, as we were discussing DECnet for TOPS-20, and he believes they should have a copy. BTW, have you found out if Paul Allen's systems include tapes you don't have? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Dec 23 20:44:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:44:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <20051223125652.U2868@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I have a damaged 24" platter that I have been told came from a 1620 > (unlikely), or a 1401 (more likely). > Since it isn't 14", and therefore "real", what would you call it? Extra real. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Dec 23 20:50:23 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:50:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Disk Drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Do you have a unit to repair or just want an old manual as a collectible? I have one 2311, and a string of 3330s. I also have a pair of Univac 2311oids - I forget the number. > Not certain if the 2311 manual survive the last move. If it did, it goes to > Al when I find it. That would be very cool. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 23 22:19:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:19:09 -0700 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I suspect >I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand and a probe >in the other, as usual. > > > It is the 3 hours of no-power when the winter storms, knock down the power poles or bury them in 3 feet of snow. :) >-tony > >. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 23 22:30:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:30:46 -0700 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> References: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43ACCEF6.3080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or >> whatever else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their >> families. May 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great >> hacks. > > > Don't forget Hogswatch. I was just watching Mrs Piggy,( On a Muppets dvd) does that count for Hogswatch. So just what is hogswatch? > Gordon. Now is that FIG pudding Forth? Also the Fake Computer in the 'Muppets Labs' sketches remind me alot of the IBM 1130 console. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 23 22:48:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 23:48:17 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> References: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43ACD311.2080202@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and >>> healthy >>> holiday and a Happy New Year. >> >> >> >> Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or >> whatever else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their >> families. May 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great hacks. > > > Don't forget Hogswatch. Or Chrismahanukwanzaaka. (sp?) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 23 22:55:01 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:55:01 -0800 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512232055010491.1131D162@10.0.0.252> Io, Saturnalia, gang! --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 23 23:32:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:32:29 -0700 Subject: 6809 stuff - good progress made on FDC 2793 for the Core (Blinkenlight) processor board In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25C5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25C5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43ACDD6D.6090703@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi all, > > just wanted to share a "good feeling" for the season holidays. >I got the 2793 floppy disk controller working on the 6809 Core Board. >Read about it on my website in the folder "my projects -> Floppy disk" >or use this direct link if you don't want JavaScript active: > www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/floppy/diskstartpage.html > > Some Floppy disk information can be found here that may be usefull. See Star#Dos for more information. >http://www.users.cloud9.net/~stark/ > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 23 23:42:04 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:42:04 -0800 Subject: Computer Automation Syfa System Message-ID: <43ACDFAC.1050506@msm.umr.edu> Does anyone have the capability or inclination to read 80mb and 300mb system packs from such a system? I have a friend who has probably got system development packs available from systems he used to service. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 24 00:13:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:13:54 -0600 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <200512231452.50905.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512231452.50905.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43ACE722.2040905@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > pushed the hatch cover aside, and stepped out into the space where the tone > cabinets were, only to go *crunch*, *crunch* because the entire floor was > covered -- with dead bats! Stories like this make me glad I subscribed to cctalk instead of cctech ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 24 00:14:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:14:58 -0600 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> References: <43AC99A9.1050109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43ACE762.7070302@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Midwinter, Winter Solstice, Yule or >> whatever else yuu celebrate to all mambers of this list and their >> families. May 2006 bring FORTH many interesting machines and great hacks. > > Don't forget Hogswatch. Around the office today we kicked around "Merry Hannukwanzmas!" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 24 02:55:42 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 08:55:42 +0000 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:37:56 EST." <000801c60819$e70bc270$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200512240855.IAA16598@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, > And here's to happy collecting in the year 11111010110. > Which reminds me...you can buy a binary watch at http://www.iwantoneofthose.com (...and a Morse code one from http://uk.gizmos.com if you're into that sort of thing) A bit late for a xmas present now :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Dec 24 05:25:20 2005 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Miller, Keven) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 04:25:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> Occasionally, I extract data from 9-track tapes with densities of 1600 and 6250, using an HP3000 system and 7980XC tape drive. Recently I received 4 tapes from a PDP-11, RSX-11M, created with backup (BRU format), that I instantly get media read errors. These were created about 2 weeks ago, so not old tapes. (Well, not old backup, not sure about age of tapes!) Because of the "older" system, I am suspecting that they may be 800 bpi tapes. So I am asking for some enlightenment from those of you who are more familiar to PDP-11s about tapes and possible reasons I may not be able to read them? 800 bpi possibility of 7-track unique tape format actual media error (on all 4 tapes) Thanks Keven Miller kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 24 06:11:53 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:11:53 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes References: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> Message-ID: <000a01c60883$3a937c80$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Miller, Keven" Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 12:25 PM Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes > Recently I received 4 tapes from a PDP-11, RSX-11M, created > with backup (BRU format), that I instantly get media read > errors. > Because of the "older" system, I am suspecting that they may > be 800 bpi tapes. I am not familiar with PDP, so I can only answer based on my experience. 7-track tapes went out of fashion around 1970 or so. In my first job I encountered an IBM drive for 7 AND 9 track, and that was in 1969. 800 bpi would be more like it, but you didnt give the make/model of the drive used, so that's only a guess. It could very well be a case of too large blocklength; many drives (or operating systems!) I've seen cannot read blocks larger then 32K. This is especially a problem for tapes from the oil and geophysical industries. If nobody else can be of help, you're welcome to send me a tape, so I can have a look at it Cheers Nico (located in Denmark) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 24 06:59:28 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 12:59:28 +0000 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43AD4630.7020407@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I >> suspect I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand >> and a probe in the other, as usual. >> >> >> > It is the 3 hours of no-power when the winter storms, knock down the > power poles > or bury them in 3 feet of snow. :) Ah, we don't get that until mid-January when the 140mph gales start. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 24 07:20:45 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:20:45 +0000 Subject: Oldest machine In-Reply-To: <43ACE722.2040905@oldskool.org> References: <0IRQ00LLCUSN9PL2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200512231228.50193.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43AC40A6.6060500@jetnet.ab.ca> <200512231452.50905.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43ACE722.2040905@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43AD4B2D.80005@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> pushed the hatch cover aside, and stepped out into the space where >> the tone cabinets were, only to go *crunch*, *crunch* because the >> entire floor was covered -- with dead bats! > > > Stories like this make me glad I subscribed to cctalk instead of cctech ;-) Indeed. Gordon. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 24 07:33:35 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 08:33:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> References: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> Message-ID: <20051224133335.99313BA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > So I am asking for some enlightenment from those of you who are > more familiar to PDP-11s about tapes and possible reasons > I may not be able to read them? > > 800 bpi > possibility of 7-track > unique tape format > actual media error (on all 4 tapes) I'm not sure what you use on your HP3000 to read these tapes, but keep in mind that RSX BRU tapes use variable block sizes up to a little over 4kbytes and your tape tools must allow for this (and also record the block size!) Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 24 07:40:20 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 08:40:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> <20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20051224134021.49F9CBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I could have sworn it was someone at RCS/RI, that said a couple years > ago that they had stuff that wasn't in your your archive. Very possible, but I don't know who it was or what they have. > > [CHM] > It would definitely be nice to know what is there, am I remembering > correctly that DEC/Compaq shipped them what remained of the DEC > archives? I think you're being overoptimistic. On the corporate side DEC attempted to purge all that stuff into the bitbucket. There were individuals inside DEC who preserved what they could and many of these tapes have made their way into the archive. >> Johnny thinks that there are tapes besides what he sent you, as we >> were discussing DECnet for TOPS-20, and he believes they should have >> a copy. > >> BTW, have you found out if Paul Allen's systems include tapes you don't have? Just because the archive stopped growing a couple years ago, don't you ever believe that it's because I've got copies of everything that ever existed! The real reason it stopped growing is because people stopped giving me tapes to image and put into the archive. I'm guessing that 99.9% of the distribution tapes are still not imaged, and are rotting away in some dank corner... Tim. From cc at corti-net.de Sat Dec 24 07:49:49 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:49:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: Core and ICs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> By the way to answer someone's question, all of my equipment is = >> transistor & diode logic. It predates ICs by several years. Core >> memory started = with vacuum tubes (or valves, if you prefer), moved to >> transistors and = finally ICs at the end of the era. I saw only a few >> commercial core memories = with ICs. ICs meant RAM was feasible, so >> there was a very narrow window of = Core and ICs. Many of those moved >> over to RAM in the middle of the = I don't know who wrote this, but this really hurts... I say: core memory = RAM !!! You know, Random Access Memory, just what core memory is. If you say RAM, you always think of memories like drum or ultrasonic ones, too, which are not randomly accessible. And not to forget, most ROMs are RAMs! BTW most commercial core memories since around 1970 are with ICs (SN75xxx etc. come to mind). Christian From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 24 08:22:09 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 06:22:09 -0800 Subject: PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <20051224134021.49F9CBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com> <20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20051224134021.49F9CBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 8:40 AM -0500 12/24/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> I could have sworn it was someone at RCS/RI, that said a couple years >> ago that they had stuff that wasn't in your your archive. > >Very possible, but I don't know who it was or what they have. I'll have to see if I can figure that out... > > > [CHM] >> It would definitely be nice to know what is there, am I remembering >> correctly that DEC/Compaq shipped them what remained of the DEC >> archives? > >I think you're being overoptimistic. On the corporate side DEC >attempted to purge all that stuff into the bitbucket. There were >individuals inside DEC who preserved what they could and many of >these tapes have made their way into the archive. I know they dumped a *lot*, but I thought there had been some "official" dumping of what was left on CHM. >Just because the archive stopped growing a couple years ago, don't you >ever believe that it's because I've got copies of everything that ever >existed! The real reason it stopped growing is because people stopped >giving me tapes to image and put into the archive. > >I'm guessing that 99.9% of the distribution tapes are still >not imaged, and are rotting away in some dank corner... And the trick is finding the 1% or so that might still exist and getting them imaged :^( Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Dec 24 10:10:01 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:10:01 -0600 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <43AD4630.7020407@gjcp.net> References: <43ACCC3D.1080707@jetnet.ab.ca> <43AD4630.7020407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43AD72D9.3090103@vzavenue.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> One thing puzzles me. What is this 'holiday' that you speak of? I >>> suspect I'll be spending 25/12/05 with a soldering iron in one hand >>> and a probe in the other, as usual. >>> >>> >>> >> It is the 3 hours of no-power when the winter storms, knock down the >> power poles >> or bury them in 3 feet of snow. :) > > > Ah, we don't get that until mid-January when the 140mph gales start. > > Gordon. > I've never seem more that two inches of snow. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Dec 24 12:07:08 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:07:08 -0500 Subject: Core Memory In-Reply-To: <200512241800.jBOI0SSm001065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001f01c608b4$db49a510$6501a8c0@barry> The machine that I had that I used most with core memory was a Seeburg Jukebox. They used 1 core memory bit for each side of each record. If it was a "1", that record had been selected for playing. The mechanism scanned from side to side, stopping at each record with the bit set for either side. Records were not played in the order that they were selected or paid for, but in the physical left-to-right or right-to-left order. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Dec 24 12:35:37 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:35:37 -0500 Subject: EPROM labels Message-ID: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue residue. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 24 13:07:11 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 11:07:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP10 Message-ID: <20051224190711.14806192A5E@bitsavers.org> I know they dumped a *lot*, but I thought there had been some "official" dumping of what was left on CHM. -- There are several hundred tapes at CHM from DEC LCG. Most of the distribution tapes from the mid70's onward as well as backups of all of the development machines are there. I have suggested that they DO NOT just try reading these on the tape drives that they have, and that they wait until a special drive is available. I have been waiting for one of these drives for several years now. I would ask that people DO NOT encourage them to attempt to read these until a way to read them without risking their damage is available. From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 24 14:28:05 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:28:05 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... Message-ID: <01C6089E.C1C05460@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:14:58 -0600 From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: It's a most wonderful time... Around the office today we kicked around "Merry Hannukwanzmas!" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -------------------------------------------------- Or check out the Virgin Mobile Christmahannukwanzaka Help Line: 1-888-353-7667 (In Canada; don't know if it works in the US) m From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 14:40:46 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:40:46 +0000 Subject: Oldest Machine Redux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0512241240i61cc5320rdb1409cf93421f7d@mail.gmail.com> On 12/23/05, Billy Pettit wrote: > By the way to answer someone's question, all of my equipment is transistor & > diode logic. It predates ICs by several years. Really? You're doing email from something pre-IC? If so, colour me impressed! Or am I being overly literal? -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From cmurray at eagle.ca Sat Dec 24 15:45:29 2005 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:45:29 -0500 Subject: A most wonderful time Message-ID: <200512242145.jBOLjTwn027895@inferno.eagle.ca> Yes, indeed it is...and to have wonderful something old under the tree...hint, hint Santa! Many blessings to all for this special time of the year. Cheers! Murray :) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 24 15:52:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 13:52:59 -0800 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200512241352590979.14D5CAAE@10.0.0.252> On 12/24/2005 at 1:35 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue >residue. Old floppy write-protect/enable tabs work pretty well, as do "peelable/removable" labels. You can usually get the latter in a selection of colors. Here's an example of some: http://www.avery.com/us/Main?action=product.HierarchyList&node=10211291&cata logcode=WEB01 Cheers, Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 15:59:13 2005 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 08:59:13 +1100 Subject: EPROM labels References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <007701c608d5$48a8b4f0$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard A. Cini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2005 5:35 AM Subject: EPROM labels > All: > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque > labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use > electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue > residue. > I use the write protect tabs of 5.25" disks. Generally, the "metallic" ones are less sticky than the plastic/tape ones. cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 24 16:27:50 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:27:50 -0500 Subject: PDP-10s References: <200512221744.jBMHi7vC028221@onyx.spiritone.com><20051224005900.4029BBA47FE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><20051224134021.49F9CBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <007701c608d9$469da5e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > And the trick is finding the 1% or so that might still exist and > getting them imaged :^( Seems to me that the trick is getting the word out that you need stuff w/o that word making it too far, like to IP lawyers. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 24 16:31:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:31:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: URL for the PX4 manual Message-ID: The URL below contains several Epson PX4 manuals. Somebody (Dave?) was asking for technical info on that machine. There's no service manual, but there is the Operating System Technical Reference (it's the files starting with 'osrm'). It's really a programmer's manual, so it doesn't contain a full schematic, but it does contain I/O port details and pinouts of the connectors (including the cartridge port), and examples of how to design cartridges. http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/px4/doc/ May be of interest, anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 24 16:39:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:39:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512231955.42334.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 07:55:42 pm Message-ID: > > In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT, > > CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is > > in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have > > been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools. > > Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product. > > The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? Both contain 3 ROMs, actually, but on the PX8, one is under a seperate plastic cover on the bottom of that machine. That one, and the one on the far right as you look at them in the PX4, is the OS/boot ROM/etc, and is never normally changed (it's not in one of those carriers, it goes in a normal DIL socket). The other 2, in carriers, appear as read-only 'disks' to CP/M. In my PX8, I have one ROM with the CP/M utilities (PIP, STAT, etc) and one with BASIC. In the PX4 I have the utilities and the RAMdisk cartridge drivers. > altogether. There's a "wedge" on the machine, which I think has its own The wedge is normally extra RAM which appears as a RAMdisk. On the PX8, there was also a modem (300 buard), or a combined modem/RAMdisk unit. On the PX4, I think the modem was a cartridge. > battery besides the main one and I think there's also one other one inside > there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there. I'd The RAMdisk units do contain their own battery. The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to the PCB. In the PX4, there's the main battery (either a back of 4 AA NiCds connected to the 4 pin plug in the battery compartment, or 4 AA primary sells fitted by rearranging the contact boards), and a separate backup NiCd fitted inside the case and plugged into the PCB. Considering I am not likely to use these machines every day, I find recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 24 16:43:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:43:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512232008.10927.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 23, 5 08:08:10 pm Message-ID: > Looking in my archives, I show (in more or less alphabetical order) the > following: > > EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have one) > EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as FILINK > (That one is assembly source) > FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK > PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms > > ...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking for? Two questions : 1) How to I get to your archives (URL?) 2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when it was current, my Z80 machines were TRS-80s running LDOS. When I got the Model 4, I got CP/M with it, but I much prefered LS-DOS (or TRS-DOS 6, which is essentially the same thing). Yes, there's more software for CP/M, but if yoy didn't want that software, LS-DOS was a much nicer OS IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 24 16:50:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:50:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at Dec 24, 5 01:35:37 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque > labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use > electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue > residue. I normally use the silver write-protect tabs you get with 8" floppies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 24 16:55:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:55:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 23, 5 05:09:53 pm Message-ID: > So it's very hard to pick any favorites or villains. The one constant = > in > all this technology change is:=20 > there is a very good living to be made repairing computers and = > electronics. Can i just check that you're in the same universe as the rest of us? And preferably on the same planet too. Because round here there is no living to be made repairing stuff. People will not pay for repairs (not even on classic machines, or on valuable/well-made machines, or...). Maybe you can make a living board-swapping at random, and charging a bit of that, but not for doing proper repairs. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 24 19:46:48 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:46:48 -0600 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43ADFA08.3020509@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > 2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Dec 25 10:22:44 2005 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 17:22:44 +0100 Subject: Filink source. was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512241800.jBOI0SSr001065@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512241800.jBOI0SSr001065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43AEC754.10206@xs4all.nl> >Talking of that, is the protocol used by FLINK documented anywhere? >(FLINK is a program in the utilities ROM of both the PX4 and PX8 that >seems to do file transfer over the RS232 port). I've heard rumours for a >version in C for unix machines, but can't seem to find it anywhere. > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/filink.html. Fred Jan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 25 13:08:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:08:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43ADFA08.3020509@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 24, 5 07:46:48 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > 2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when > > LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html Thanks... Poking arouund my system, I found I'd already installed this or something like it. I suspect i did so years ago to uncompress such a file and promptly forgot about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 25 13:12:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:12:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Filink source. was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43AEC754.10206@xs4all.nl> from "Fred Jan Kraan" at Dec 25, 5 05:22:44 pm Message-ID: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/filink.html. Thanks, I will take a look sometime soon..... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 25 13:48:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 19:48:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP7245A plotter mechanical notes Message-ID: I spent Newtonsday in a non-traditional manner assembling the Y-drive mechanism of my HP7245A thermal printer/plotter. The machine now sort-of works, but the motor driver needs setting up (X drive in particular is uneven) and there may well be other electronic faults. I wish I could say it worked first time, but I made 2 silly mistakes. One was to get the connector missaligned when I plugged the Y motor harness into the backplane (this caused the PSU to shut down when it tried to run the Y motor). The other was that after fitting the printhead and trying to plot something, nothing appeared on the paper. Yes, I'd got the paper in back-to-front (being thermal, the paper is only sensitive on one side). Anyway, I'll post my notes on the mechanism below. This is not a replacement for the HP7245B service manual on hpmusuem.net, it should be read along with that manual. You need a couple of special tools to asemble the Y drive, assuming you don't have the offical HP ones (I wish), I've included insturctions for making them. And I think my way of setting the motor coupling (needing 3 homemade spacers) is easier than the HP method. Feel free to archive this somewhere, make it available, etc. All I ask is that I am given credit for it. -tony PSU Fan Dismantling ------------------- Dismantle PSU. Disconnect mains input harness from 'line' switch (push-on terminals). Remove fan and harness from PSU chassis. Remove cable clip on fan housing. Undo 2 slot-head screws (under label). Feed cable through housing and remove motor/blade assembly. Recover thrust pad (inside housing. Rmmove circlip from end of spindle. Lift off waskers. Remove blade/rotor from stator. Lubricate bearings with light machine oil when reassembling X Drive Fan Dismantling ----------------------- Remove fan from X drive chassis (3 screws). Remove adapter from fan (one further screw). Remove 4 crosshead screws on fan motor plate. Lift motor assembly out of housing. Remove 2 slothead screws (under label) and take off plate. Remove circlip from spindle end WITH CARE, it is spring loaded. Take off washer, ball race, 'tophat' spacer, spring, second 'tophat' spacer. Lift out stator and remove second ball race and spacer from spindle. X Drive Chassis --------------- Anticlockwise rotation of motor -> Carriage moves to right To lock motor, apply 5V to one motor winding (e.g. between red and yellow wires at motor connnector) Fit to LH side plate : Microswitch harness (2 microswitches) Paper roll clip Y drive clip Y drive stop (shorter 'tail') Tensioner assembly Fit to RH side plate : Paper roll clip Y drive clip Y drive stop (longer 'tail') Bail spring (loop towards rear of machine) 2 idlers Motor mounting bracket Assemble chassis. Fit motor (wires on left side, nuts on front side) Fit pulley, hole at top. Lock motor (see above). Fit cable : LH cable (long end). 3 turns anticlockwise from hole, towards back. RH cable (short end) : 1+3/4 turns clockwise from hole, towards front. Y drive special tools --------------------- 1) 3 spacers, Each 30mm long, made from 1/2" brass rod, 3.5mm hole drilled centrally (along axis). Length is reasonably critical. These are used in place of the plastic motor mount when using the platten-movement tool and checking the motor coupling 2) Platten-movement tool. Brass block, 5/8" square by 3" long. Drill centrally 5mm, and tap M6 (1). Drill 3.5mm holes 1+5/16" either side of this (approximately 316" from ends of bar). All holes to be aligned along center of bar, and drilled perpendicualr to the face : Top View: Centre Line | +----------------------------+ ---- | o * o | 5/8" +----------------------------+ ---- | | | | | | | <1+5/16> | <1+5/16> | | | | | | | <----------3-------------> | Mill away ends of bar to reduce thickness to aproximately 1/8" (thickness of motor flange) for about 1/2" SIde view: +------------------------+ ---------- | | 1/2 | | +-----+ + ----+ ---------- | | 1/8 + -----------------------------------+ ---------- | | | | | | | | |<1/2>| <-------2------------> |<1/2>| The central hole is fitted with an M6 (1) bolt. Either a stnadard commercial one, or make a both from 1/4" or 5/16" brass rod, turned down to 6 mm and threaded with a die for a length of 50 mm. Knurl the 'head' end to give a suitable grip and part off. In use, this tool is fitted in place of the stepper motor, using 2 of the spacers mentioned above. The M6 screw presses on the end of the platten spindle. With the platten fixing screws hand-tight, the M6 screw is used to postion the platten to align the LH sprockets. (1) THis thrad is not critical, although obviously the hole and bolt must be the same thread. M6 is 1mm pitch. 0BA, or 1/4-28 UNF would be fine too. 3) A courved straightedge. This is fitted round the platten, in contact with the teeth on the LH sprockt. It is then used to line up those teeth with the ones on the LH drum sproket. Turn a brass cylinder 1.27" (32,3mm) diameter by 5/8" thick (approximately). Drill a 3.5mm hole along the axis, tap M4. Drill a 2.5mm hole radially, 1/4" from one face, tap M3. Drill a 4mm hole in a 6" (approx) flat metal square (e.g. 1/8" thick aluminium), aporximately 1.5" from the edges. Screw the cylinder there with an M4 screww, radial hole closer to the plate. The actaul straightedge is made from brass strip, 1/2" wide. Drill a 4mm hole on the centre line close to one end, fix to the cylinder with an M3 screw and washer. Ensure the strip contacts the plate along its full length. Bend the strip round the cylinder by hand for about 1/2 turn, keeping it in contact with the plate. Remove from the cylinder, continue forming by hand so as to fit closely round it. Y Drive Assembly ---------------- Assemble the following 6 subassemblies first. 1) Belt cover : Fit the belt spring leaf (2 screws/nuts/washers) 2) Paper clamp : Assemble the tension arms to the side rails, fit the springs. Assemble the front roller (presses against drum when machine is asembled), screw side rails to this. Fit the white plastic guide roller to the tension arms 3) Paper sensor top cover. Assmeble the magnet, metal return plate, 2 spacers to this plate with 2 screws, washers, and nuts. 4) Paper sensors : Fit the U-shaped brackets to the cross rail. The easiest way to do this is to fit the spring to the cross rail, using a thin rod (e.g. a small crosspoint or Torx srewdriver inserted through the hole on the bottom of this rail to giude it in place. Then fit the bracket to the rail alongside the sping ( top upringht (tapped hole) inside the rail), pull out the rodn amd use a small screwdriver to compress the spring a little and slide the bracket in place. Use the rod to align the spring and the holes in the rail and U-bracket. Fit the special adjusting screw from the bottom, screw into the tapped hole in the U-bracket. Fit the reflective optoswitches to the sensor PCBs, fit these to the U-brackets (PCB away from the bracket), fit the allen-head screws and tighten (Sensor pin side against the 'bumps' on the U bracket). Fit the cross rail to the left side plate (cable form under the rail), fit the fixing screw finger-tight. 5) Platten : Fit an E-circlip into the grouve on the platten spindle (this is the one with one end turned down). Fit a plain (not flanged) ball race inside the platten at each end. WIth the platten mounting face away from you and the flat (prinhead surface) towards the top, slide in the spindle from the RHS, fit a samll sprocket on the LH end, fit a clamp and tighten. Slide the other small sproket onto the RH end of the spindle, fit the coupling/belt sprocket (pin to go through hole in paper sprocket), fit clamp. Place assembly on a flat surface and alighn the pins on the 2 paper sprockets. Tighten the clamp at the RH side. Fit the mouting rail to the platten with 3 allen screws, finger tight. 6) Drum : Fit an E circlip into the grouve nearest the end of the drum spindle. Slide a large paper sprocket onto thi from the long end of the spinddle (clamp end to be towarfs the long end, fit a clamp. Slide the sprocket hard against the E-clrclip, tighten the clamp. Fit the drum tube, the metal drum onto the spindle, fit a clamp inside the latter so that the screw can be accessed via the hole in the metal drum. Fit the other large sprocket, engaging the pin on the metal drum with its hole. Alight the teeth on the paper sprokects on a flat surface as before and tighten the clamp. Fit an E-circlip into the remaing groove on the drum spindle. Slide a flanged ball race onto each end of the drum spridle, flanges towards the drum. Assembling the Y drive : Fit the platten to the left side plate, motor coupling/sprocket to the right. Fit and tighten 2 screws. Fit the drum into the left side plate, short end of the spindle to the left. Fit the right side plate, motor harness loop under the paper sensor cross rail. Screw in the the 3 screws that hold the the RH side plate in place. Leave the one in the paper sensor rail finger-tight, note that the top screw on the platten mouting on this slde is the long one and fitted with a spacer under the head (to keep the motor harness away from moving parts. Fit the hase plate under the paper sesnor, the paper senosr harness and notor harness fit into the slot on the cross rail. Screw to the cross rail with 1 screws and to the lugs on the side plates with 4 scress and hexagonal spacers. Tighten the 2 screws holding the sensor cross rail to the side plates. Fit the platten movement tool to the stepper motor mouting holes with 2 motor mouting screws and 2 of the spacers made earlier. Slide the platten all the way to the right and screw in the the bolt on the tool until it just touches the end of the shaft. Fit the curved straightedge tool round the platnen, againsts the teeth of the LH paper sprocket. Screw in the bolt of the movement tool until the straightedge contacts the teeth of the LH drum sprocket. Tighten the 3 allen screws holding the platten to the mouting rail (a ball-ended tool is useful here), remvoe the special tools. Fit the toothed belt to the platten motor coupling sproket. Fit the sproket to the drum spindle. Fit the tensioner sleeve to the tensioner, fit this to the side plate with 1 screw. Turn it to tension the belt, tighten the screw. Fit the clamp to the drum sprocket, leave untightened. Run a length of plotter paper over the sprockets on the drum and platten. Routate the latter so that all teeth enter holes on the paper and tighten the clamp on the drum sprocket. Fit the motor coupling to the motor and fit the clamp. Fit the cross piece to the platten coupling, fit the motor to the side plate with the 3 screws and the spacers made earlier. Tighten the clamp on the motor coupling. Check everything turns freely. Remove the motor and the spacers. Fit the motor to the motor mount (1 screw and nut). The motor wires are routed down the side of the motor, through a slot in the mount. Fit this assembly to the mechanism, checking that the cross piece is correctly engaged and that the cable is routed above the long screw on the platten mouning. Fit the 3 motor screws and tighten. Plug the motor cable into the motor harness and fit the connectors and cables into the grouve on the side plate. Fit the paper clamp assembly, 1 screw and large washer on one side, 1 screw and bush on the other. FIt the belt cover (2 screws), check this latches the paper clamp Fit the top cover on the paper sensor (5 screws) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 25 13:43:15 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 11:43:15 -0800 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay References: <200512250957410411.00272015@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512251143150279.0087C5C0@10.0.0.252> Did anyone notice this one? Might be a good deal for someone living nearby with some friends to help out with heavy lifting. Item: 5845564149 Looks like a lot of stuff. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 25 15:42:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 15:42:17 -0600 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43AF1239.9010708@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>>2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when >> >>LHA: http://members.aol.com/DuckGroup/lha_comp.html > > Thanks... Poking arouund my system, I found I'd already installed this or > something like it. I suspect i did so years ago to uncompress > such a file and promptly forgot about it. That's good, because I just found out all the simtel links in the URL I referred you to were bad, thanks to Digital River totally f**king up the concept of what an FTP archive is supposed to be. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Dec 25 16:28:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 17:28:20 -0500 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <200512251143150279.0087C5C0@10.0.0.252> References: <200512250957410411.00272015@10.0.0.252> <200512251143150279.0087C5C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43AF1D04.40006@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did anyone notice this one? Might be a good deal for someone living nearby > with some friends to help out with heavy lifting. > > Item: 5845564149 > > Looks like a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, it isn't really multiprocessor. It's a single processor 62.5 MHz POWER. Just about the only things that make it worth taking are the P77 monitor and the UPSes. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 25 17:34:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 15:34:53 -0800 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <43AF1D04.40006@gmail.com> References: <200512250957410411.00272015@10.0.0.252> <200512251143150279.0087C5C0@10.0.0.252> <43AF1D04.40006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200512251534530167.015BD4C2@10.0.0.252> On 12/25/2005 at 5:28 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Unfortunately, it isn't really multiprocessor. It's a single processor >62.5 MHz POWER. > >Just about the only things that make it worth taking are the P77 monitor >and the UPSes. If anyone should know, it's you, Sridhar! Let's see, at a $10 buy and copper going for around $2/lb. scrap value, does anyone wonder where this will end up? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Dec 25 20:17:42 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 20:17:42 -0600 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? Message-ID: <43AF52C6.1080304@oldskool.org> Anyone had experience with a Data Technologies DTC-1181? It appears to be an 8-bit ISA board that somehow enhances the on-board BIOS to handle drives larger than 528MB through LBA. Does it work? If so, does it then go up to the typical 8192MB barrier or does it go farther than that? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Mon Dec 26 00:52:38 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 01:52:38 -0500 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <43A565A8.4060101@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> <43A565A8.4060101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Dec 18, 2005, at 8:35 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Did you get Domain keyboards? They always seem to go missing (a bit > like the proprietary SGI ones often do), and you can't run DomainOS > without them. Sadly, no. Makes testing them hard ;-) From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 26 04:08:15 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:08:15 +0000 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <43AF52C6.1080304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Anyone had experience with a Data Technologies DTC-1181? It appears to be an > 8-bit ISA board that somehow enhances the on-board BIOS to handle drives larger > than 528MB through LBA. Does it work? If so, does it then go up to the > typical 8192MB barrier or does it go farther than that? I have the docs for it kicking around here somewhere (single-page, I could scan it for you if you like - assuming I can find it). IIRC it will go up to the 30G barrier (but I could be wrong - it's been quite a while since I used it). Btw, the board is just a ROM socket - I used to put the ROM itself (which IIRC is 8K) into the boot rom socket of my network cards on various 486 class machines - if you are not using network boot, it saves a card slot. And yes, it does work. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Dec 26 08:54:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:54:33 -0500 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <43AF52C6.1080304@oldskool.org> <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051226095433.3ffc0b87.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:08:15 +0000 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > Anyone had experience with a Data Technologies DTC-1181? It appears to be an > > 8-bit ISA board that somehow enhances the on-board BIOS to handle drives larger > > than 528MB through LBA. Does it work? If so, does it then go up to the > > typical 8192MB barrier or does it go farther than that? > > I have the docs for it kicking around here somewhere (single-page, I could scan it for you > if you like - assuming I can find it). IIRC it will go up to the 30G barrier (but I could be > wrong - it's been quite a while since I used it). > > Btw, the board is just a ROM socket - I used to put the ROM itself (which IIRC is 8K) into > the boot rom socket of my network cards on various 486 class machines - if you are not > using network boot, it saves a card slot. > IOW it's just a ROM-based BIOS extension. I _want_ one of those. And having such a card around for other ROM firmware extension purposes would be cool, too. Unfortunately the ROM contents is copyrighted, because otherwise that BIOS extension upgrade would eliminate the need for the awful kludges like Disk Manager on a lot of older systems. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 26 09:31:49 2005 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:31:49 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Z2 and Electrical Safety In-Reply-To: <20051226095433.3ffc0b87.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43AF52C6.1080304@oldskool.org> <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20051226091638.03fb3a10@cirithi> I am restoring a Cromemco Z2D and have spotted a couple of electrical safety issues. The machine was set up and the instructions were set up to fuse the *Neutral* rather than Hot. I believe this is very bad, because if a fault develops (say, a ground fault from hot to ground) you want that fuse to blow so as not to start a fire. (If the neutral is fused, even if the fuse blows, a hot to ground fault still has a current path thru the ground). As the machine was shipped, and as the instructions were set up, they had the AC hot coming in on the wrong side, such that neutral is fused, rather than hot. What happened was that they (Cromemco) had the Hot coming from the AC input connected to their White wire, which was not fused. And the Neutral coming from the AC input was connected to their Black wire, which was fused. Also, the way they had it set up, the neutral wire connects to some *GREEN* wires on the transformer, which is very misleading. (Worse yet, if you fix the aforementioned problem by reversing the leads on the input filter, you end up with HOT on those green wires. And it wasn't just this unit. The instructions and diagrams in the manual have it wrong. (The schematic is non-committal -- it doesn't identify hot and neutral, just colors on the output side of the line filter). What a bunch a maroons..... --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 26 09:57:57 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:57:57 -0500 Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC In-Reply-To: <200512260557.jBQ5v1io013054@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006801c60a35$23f3ea10$6501a8c0@barry> Re: More than 2 FDDs on a PC I have a few (not sure how many, but several) PC 8-bit 4-drive Floppy disk controllers. They have onboard FDC bios and support both 5.25 and 3.5 inch drives. Some of them have I/O on them (serial/parallel). They are all new, some in boxes, various models, some have diskettes (drivers), documentation, cables, etc. If anyone wants one, I'll sell them for $12 each plus $6 shipping. As-is, I have no way to test them and they are old, but if one doesn't work I'll refund or exchange (but you will be out the shipping cost). I can send you more detailed specs (including photo) if you are seriously interested (they are downstairs in the basement in a "bone pile" and I'd have to go through them). Barry Watzman, Watzman at neo.rr.com From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 10:28:53 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:28:53 -0500 Subject: 8" Floppies and such for sale Message-ID: Christmas was fun and all, and now I've got a few useless items to me that I'd like to off :) All EIGHT inch unless otherwise noted TRSDOS - Model II Disk Operating System and Basic Interpreter Version 2.0 - disk looks slightly beat up MicroPro - MailMerge Version 3.3 - for CP/M 80 - Both 8" and 5.25"(these look perfect!) - micropro sleeve for the 8" one MicroPro - WORDSTAR PROFESSIONAL - Printer data disks 1 & 2 - 5.25" Digital Research (IN DR SLEEVE) - End User Diskette Program SID/ZSID, Version 1.4 - stamped 1980, in perfect looking condition with one ding MICROSOFT - Macro Assembler - FOR CP/M-80, Catalog No. 3215 - Part No. 23H16 . Marked version 341, disk is perfect, plastic label is falling off. Green old microsoft sleeve with the weird O From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Dec 26 11:02:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:02:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <200512251534530167.015BD4C2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Let's see, at a $10 buy and copper going for around $2/lb. scrap value, > does anyone wonder where this will end up? Not a big loss, as there are quite a few of these left for the take. The scrap value for this whole pile is probably only a little more than the $10.00. I do not cry too hard about any machine that goes to the scrap yard, unless it is at least 25 years old. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 26 11:12:43 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:12:43 -0800 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200512260912430138.05244A1F@10.0.0.252> On 12/26/2005 at 10:08 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: >I have the docs for it kicking around here somewhere (single-page, I could >scan it for you if you like - assuming I can find it). IIRC it will go up to the 30G >barrier (but I could be wrong - it's been quite a while since I used it). AFAIK, the 1181 that I had limited you to 8GB, but there was a later version called the 1181Y2K, which also had BIOS patches for Y2K problems--that one may to the 32G limit. A very handy little card. IIRC, you simply set your BIOS setup to a type "1" drive after installation. Choice of BIOS segment is C800 or CC00. If you have any third-party disk manager software already installed on the drive, be sure to remove it first. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Dec 26 11:39:29 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:39:29 -0600 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43B02AD1.7010107@brutman.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Anyone had experience with a Data Technologies DTC-1181? It appears to be an >>8-bit ISA board that somehow enhances the on-board BIOS to handle drives larger >>than 528MB through LBA. Does it work? If so, does it then go up to the >>typical 8192MB barrier or does it go farther than that? > > > I have the docs for it kicking around here somewhere (single-page, I could scan it for you > if you like - assuming I can find it). IIRC it will go up to the 30G barrier (but I could be > wrong - it's been quite a while since I used it). > > Btw, the board is just a ROM socket - I used to put the ROM itself (which IIRC is 8K) into > the boot rom socket of my network cards on various 486 class machines - if you are not > using network boot, it saves a card slot. > > And yes, it does work. > > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > Wow - if it's just a ROM socket, that makes it a really implementation of the PCjr cartridge slot! I knew us PCjr owners would be vindicated one day! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Dec 26 12:13:52 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:13:52 -0600 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <43B02AD1.7010107@brutman.com> References: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43B02AD1.7010107@brutman.com> Message-ID: <43B032E0.90509@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Wow - if it's just a ROM socket, that makes it a really implementation > of the PCjr cartridge slot! I knew us PCjr owners would be vindicated > one day! I was too enthusiastic and should learn to proof read regularly. Make that 'a really *UGLY* implementation' .... From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 26 11:41:53 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:41:53 -0800 Subject: need Info on Cirrus card set in a PDP8/A Message-ID: <43B02B61.9040303@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I have a PDP8/A with a Cirrus processor card set. Either I have looked in the wrong places or at least I have not come up with any info. on these. It has all the other DEC cards M3320, M8416, M8317, M8417, Cirrus, Cirrus, Cirrus and a M8330. I'm trying figure out the console port (serial). It has the standard DEC port and 2 connections on the cirrus boards. The cirrus boards have there own ROM's. It seems to start up and do a auto boot of some type. It does not respond to the front panel like a standard DEC board set does And there is nothing at the DEC console (serial) port. It does display what its doing. (addressing and the the run light ) On the front programmers console. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 26 11:50:23 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:50:23 -0800 Subject: looking for Tektronics Basic for a PDP11/05 Message-ID: <43B02D5F.2070901@worldnet.att.net> Hi I have a Tektronix 7704A Scope with a P7001 Storage Processor (DSO) which hooks to a DEC PDP11-05 for storage. I have most of it working except for the Tek 4010 Terminal (missing) I don't have the Boot Disks for the Tek CP1152 (DEC PDP11/05) Computer. The manual says it is "TEK SPS Basic V02-01". Was on 8" floppy. There was also a Diagnostic disk for the Scope system Any help would be much appreciated, or send me in the right Direction. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc 800.292.6370 PST g-wright at att.net From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 26 08:34:23 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:34:23 +0000 Subject: Any experience with a DTC-1181? In-Reply-To: <200512260912430138.05244A1F@10.0.0.252> References: <20051226141452.FUVG5971.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051226184110.MILE9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > AFAIK, the 1181 that I had limited you to 8GB, but there was a later > version called the 1181Y2K, which also had BIOS patches for Y2K > problems--that one may to the 32G limit. A very handy little card. > > IIRC, you simply set your BIOS setup to a type "1" drive after > installation. Choice of BIOS segment is C800 or CC00. If you have any > third-party disk manager software already installed on the drive, be sure > to remove it first. Found the doc - it makes no mention of the maximum drive size, which means it likely is 8G (If it beat that limit, I'm sure they would have said so). Rom is 16K, and the card can be jumpered for: C8000-CBFFF CC000-CFFFF D8000-DBFFF DC000-DFFFF Docs say to set 'C' drive to type '1', and if present, set 'D' to type '2'. I don't recall if I never used it with 2 drives, but it worked well with one drive. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 26 12:12:35 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 10:12:35 -0800 Subject: looking for Plessey board Doc's Message-ID: <43B03293.3040205@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I Have a 2 Plessey Boards for a PDP11 and I can not find much on them. - 701840 may be a tape controller - 703360 This is a Memory board There was a site with plessy info. but it seems to be gone. I beleive it was in the UK. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 26 13:54:35 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 14:54:35 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 82 Message-ID: <01C60A2C.4B6B4D80@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message----------- >From: Jay Jaeger >Subject: Cromemco Z2 and Electrical Safety >I am restoring a Cromemco Z2D and have spotted a couple of electrical >safety issues. >The machine was set up and the instructions were set up to fuse the >*Neutral* rather than Hot. >And it wasn't just this unit. The instructions and diagrams in the manual >have it wrong. (The schematic is non-committal -- it doesn't identify hot >and neutral, just colors on the output side of the line filter). >What a bunch a maroons..... >--- >Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection >cube1 at charter.net ------------Reply----------- Well, I wouldn't call "them" a bunch a maroons... The Z2 power supply I'm looking at and my copy of the manual have it right; I suppose it's possible that an older version of the manual had the incoming lines reversed and someone (not necessarily Cromemco) wired it accordingly. I assume you checked that the white wire _is_ actually the neutral at the plug end (and that your outlet is wired correctly)? AFAIK, once inside the cabinet wiring can be any arbitrary color, so, since hot and neutral are not identified, black could just as well be the neutral and you'd create this very problem by "fixing" it. mike From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 14:44:43 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:44:43 -0500 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <200512241352590979.14D5CAAE@10.0.0.252> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200512241352590979.14D5CAAE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512261544.43917.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 24 December 2005 04:52 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/24/2005 at 1:35 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque > >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use > >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue > >residue. > > Old floppy write-protect/enable tabs work pretty well, as do > "peelable/removable" labels. I never paid much attention to "removable" or not back when I was buying boxes of labels, but in the years since then I've found that those tend to dry out and _fall off_ whatever they were applied to, like some of the file folders I have on hand here, among other things. Some others take a lot of scraping and such to get them off, if I can get them off at all. I wouldn't worry about glue residue, really. A sharp knife will get the worst of it off, if necessary. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 14:47:38 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:47:38 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512261547.38256.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 24 December 2005 05:39 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > In my PX4 are 2 EPROMs. One is the standard utilities ROM (PIP, STAT, > > > CONFIG, etc). The other seems to be the drivers for this RAMdisk. It is > > > in one of the carriers, but it's a hand-labelled ROM and looks to have > > > been crimped into the carrier by hand, not with one of the press tools. > > > Maybe a prototype or a low-volume product. > > > > The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three > > Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? A PX8. > > There's a "wedge" on the machine, which I think has its own > The wedge is normally extra RAM which appears as a RAMdisk. On the PX8, > there was also a modem (300 buard), or a combined modem/RAMdisk unit. On > the PX4, I think the modem was a cartridge. Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else. I'd grab it and have a look but don't recall just where it is at the moment. > > battery besides the main one and I think there's also one other one > > inside there someplace, it's been a *long* time since i peeked in there. > > I'd > > The RAMdisk units do contain their own battery. > > The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main > battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to > the PCB. I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble? > Considering I am not likely to use these machines every day, I find > recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in > storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail > long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on > alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to > do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but... I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 14:52:10 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:52:10 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512261552.10914.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 24 December 2005 05:43 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Looking in my archives, I show (in more or less alphabetical order) the > > following: > > > > EPOXLINK.LZH Transfer program specific to Osborne Executive (I have > > one) EPSLINK.LZH Transfer program for cp/m machine - same UI as > > FILINK (That one is assembly source) > > FILINK.LZH unix equivalent to EPSLINK > > PROMFORM.LZH program & doc file for burning eproms > > > > ...and a few others. That "FILINK.LZH" sound like the one you're looking > > for? > > Two questions : > > 1) How to I get to your archives (URL?) They're not currently online. This stuff was, up until a couple of months back, on a BBS that I ran here, but my front end mailer program developed some sort of a glitch where it would hang up on incoming calls within 7-8 seconds, and I didn't get into figuring out why that was, instead thinking I would port things over to linux, only I haven't gotten through compiling all of that yet. I can email you stuff that's of interest. > 2) How do I uncompress a .LZH file? I was never a big CP/M user back when > it was current, my Z80 machines were TRS-80s running LDOS. When I got the > Model 4, I got CP/M with it, but I much prefered LS-DOS (or TRS-DOS 6, > which is essentially the same thing). Yes, there's more software for > CP/M, but if yoy didn't want that software, LS-DOS was a much nicer OS > IMHO. That's something I did under dos. The early versions of LZH were usable under CP/M and gave slightly better compression than "Squeezing" or "Crunching" them did, pkzip from version 2 onwards compressed better yet but wasn't able to be extracted under CP/M because of memory limitations, so I settled on LZH files instead. I suppose I could probably fire up the dos box and extract what you wanted out of the archives, and then somehow get it over to this machine where I'd email it out. Or find me an LZH-extractor that runs under linux, which would probably be easier... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 14:54:05 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:54:05 -0500 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512261554.05713.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 24 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > So it's very hard to pick any favorites or villains. The one constant = > > in > > all this technology change is:=20 > > there is a very good living to be made repairing computers and = > > electronics. > > Can i just check that you're in the same universe as the rest of us? And > preferably on the same planet too. > > Because round here there is no living to be made repairing stuff. People > will not pay for repairs (not even on classic machines, or on > valuable/well-made machines, or...). > > Maybe you can make a living board-swapping at random, and charging a bit of > that, but not for doing proper repairs. That's why I was wondering about that too, because I did make my living doing that sort of thing, from the early 1970s to the point when we closed our shop up back in 1992. There are a few contexts (industrial, etc.) where a living can be made doing that sort of thing, but they are few and far between as far as I've been able to find. Not fun having a useless skillset... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 14:57:39 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:57:39 -0500 Subject: Filink source. was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43AEC754.10206@xs4all.nl> References: <200512241800.jBOI0SSr001065@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43AEC754.10206@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200512261557.39506.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 25 December 2005 11:22 am, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > >Talking of that, is the protocol used by FLINK documented anywhere? > >(FLINK is a program in the utilities ROM of both the PX4 and PX8 that > >seems to do file transfer over the RS232 port). I've heard rumours for a > >version in C for unix machines, but can't seem to find it anywhere. > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/filink.html. > > Fred Jan Hmm, "The FILINK archive contains an MSDOS executable, a CP/M assembly and a unix sysV c source file." Looks like Tony might find the same info in the zip file at the other end of the link there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 26 15:03:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:03:53 -0800 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <200512261544.43917.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200512241352590979.14D5CAAE@10.0.0.252> <200512261544.43917.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512261303530919.05F7F5B0@10.0.0.252> On 12/26/2005 at 3:44 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >I wouldn't worry about glue residue, really. A sharp knife will get the >worst of it off, if necessary. ..and mineral spirits will generally get the rest. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 26 15:08:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 13:08:12 -0800 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <200512261544.43917.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200512241352590979.14D5CAAE@10.0.0.252> <200512261544.43917.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512261308120654.05FBE85C@10.0.0.252> Come to think of it, if you're just covering over the windows in UV EPROMs to keep them from being erased by a stray ray of UV, don't bother. There's just not enough that can get into the case of a piece of equipment that's used indoors to erase the thing. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Dec 26 15:36:36 2005 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:36:36 -0500 Subject: Z80 Software Tools/VOS? Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0512261336i7a993a19q8f1dc3615318af1e@mail.gmail.com> Does this still exists, and if so is it available in a format that would work on the SIMH Altair/S-100 emulator? I read about this non-Unix demonstraion of the basic Unix concepts and the fact that it had been ported to the Z80 once and thought that it would be cool to play around with. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 26 16:01:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512261547.38256.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 26, 5 03:47:38 pm Message-ID: > > > The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are three > > > > Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? > > A PX8. Actually, the ROMs in my PX8 have no labels at all. They have Epson part numbers stamped on the package, but nothing to easily identify them as the utilities and BASIC roms. [PX8 wedge] > Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else. I'd grab it and have a > look but don't recall just where it is at the moment. FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array (similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think). Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson accostic modem that was sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232 interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals. > > The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main > > battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered to > > the PCB. > > I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble? You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems. > > > Considering I am not likely to use these machines every day, I find > > recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge in > > storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to fail > > long before they should due to neglect. I've been running the PX4 on > > alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off my bench supply. Yes, I have to > > do a hard reser every time and reset the configuration, but... > > I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot. Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well do a lot of damage with the latter. -tony From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 26 17:46:48 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:46:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: <000a01c60883$3a937c80$2101a8c0@finans> References: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> <000a01c60883$3a937c80$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <43B080E8.4010103@srv.net> Nico de Jong wrote: >From: "Miller, Keven" >Cc: >Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 12:25 PM >Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes > > > > >>Recently I received 4 tapes from a PDP-11, RSX-11M, created >>with backup (BRU format), that I instantly get media read >>errors. >>Because of the "older" system, I am suspecting that they may >> >> >>be 800 bpi tapes. >> >> very likely > >I am not familiar with PDP, so I can only answer based on my experience. > >7-track tapes went out of fashion around 1970 or so. In my first job I >encountered an IBM drive for 7 AND 9 track, and that was in 1969. >800 bpi would be more like it, but you didnt give the make/model of the >drive used, so that's only a guess. > > > I'd guess they were not 7 track. I think all of DEC's PDP11 drives were 9 track. >It could very well be a case of too large blocklength; many drives (or >operating systems!) I've seen cannot read blocks larger then 32K. This is >especially a problem for tapes from the oil and geophysical industries. > > > The PDP11 is unlikely to have a block length more than 64K, as that is the maximum memory available to be mapped at once. With the need to have IO mapped to talk to the tape, I'd guess it would have to be less than 24KW (48 KB), but some of that memory would have to be used for the program (assuming no I&D Space used). I'd guess >32K would be very hard to do. >If nobody else can be of help, you're welcome to send me a tape, so I can >have a look at it > >Cheers > >Nico (located in Denmark) > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 26 18:04:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:04:59 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: <43B080E8.4010103@srv.net> References: <43AD3020.8090604@reeltapetransfer.com> <000a01c60883$3a937c80$2101a8c0@finans> <43B080E8.4010103@srv.net> Message-ID: <200512261604590541.069DC11A@10.0.0.252> Keven Miller wrote: >>7-track tapes went out of fashion around 1970 or so. In my first job I >>encountered an IBM drive for 7 AND 9 track, and that was in 1969. >>800 bpi would be more like it, but you didnt give the make/model of the >>drive used, so that's only a guess. When 7 track went out of fashion was somewhat dependent on the vendor. In the CDC 60-bit world, 7 track tapes hung on until at least the late 70s at many installations. But that only makes sense, as the 6000/7000/Cyber series before the 180 was all 60 bit words and 6 bit characters. OTOH, on the 64-bit Cyber 200 series, it was all 9 track tapes. 200, 556 and 800 bpi. Cheers, Chuck From ama at ugr.es Mon Dec 26 18:18:29 2005 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:18:29 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> References: <20051202001631.F02F773029@linus.groomlake.area51> <200512011530140484.0163BD8B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051227001829.GA6586@darwin.ugr.es> On Thu, Dec 01, 2005 at 03:30:14PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Increasingly, there are programs that require X for no particular good > reason. For example, why does RealPlayer 10 require it? If you want to > play an audio (not video) clip, why should you be required to load X? Why should you when you simply want to play video? :-) ?ngel From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Dec 26 18:26:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM labels Message-ID: <200512270026.QAA19360@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard A. Cini" >All: > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue >residue. > >Rich > Hi Rich Unlike disk write protects that need to block infrared, ultra violet is blocked by most anything. I like to use the white self sticking labels found at most stationary stores. These are easy to write on to indicate rev and other information. I've also taken scissors to the main labels for floppies and cut them into small enough strips to cover the windows. One can also get laser printer labels as well. It is true that over time the glue will dry and be hard to remove but googon (or similar) works well. Dwight From ama at ugr.es Mon Dec 26 19:55:58 2005 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 02:55:58 +0100 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> References: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051227015558.GB6586@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Dec 07, 2005 at 11:36:22AM -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Text would work fine for me if I had time to convert my 7 *years* of Eudora > filters over to Mutt... Not exactly high on my priority list... > ;-) That could be done in a few seconds wth a few key strokes and regular expressions in Vim (for instance). You could convert them to procmail rules and use fetchmail+procmail+spamassasin+mutt to have a great text based mail solution. ?ngel From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Dec 26 22:20:30 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:20:30 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512262320.30665.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 26 December 2005 05:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are > > > > three > > > > > > Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? > > > > A PX8. > > Actually, the ROMs in my PX8 have no labels at all. They have Epson part > numbers stamped on the package, but nothing to easily identify them as > the utilities and BASIC roms. I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable WordStar, and I forget what else (I'll know when I find it by looking at the labels :-) > [PX8 wedge] > > > Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else. I'd grab it and have > > a look but don't recall just where it is at the moment. > > FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of > the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have > their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array > (similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think). Their own z80? Hm. I did download that stuff, all of it, but haven't read it yet. And a few other things besides. There's a pile of interesting stuff on that site... > Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson accostic modem that was > sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232 > interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals. I can't recall what other jacks there were on the back of that unit, just that there were a bunch of them... > > > The machine itself contains 2 batteries. In the PX8, there's the main > > > battery pack (4 sub-C NiCds) and a separate 4.8V backup NiCd soldered > > > to the PCB. > > > > I wonder if that's the one that's giving me trouble? > > You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter > compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU > connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems. To the battery connector? Ok... > > > Considering I am not likely to use these machines every day, I find > > > recharageable battereis to be a pain. They are going to self-discharge > > > in storage and need charging before I can use it, they are going to > > > fail long before they should due to neglect. I suspect that may have some bearing on what's going on with it now. > > > I've been running the PX4 on alkaline AA primary cells anf the PX8 off > > > my bench supply. Yes, I have to do a hard reser every time and reset the > > > configuration, but... > > > > I've been trying to avoid that, but may give it a shot. > > Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must > be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well > do a lot of damage with the latter. Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or to the charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I use with it is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's labeled with that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with it when I got it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Fri Dec 23 13:36:56 2005 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 20:36:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1Epsin-1wbJtA0@fwd27.sul.t-online.de> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:09:33 +0000 (GMT), Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Thursday 22 December 2005 05:55 pm, Tony Duell wrote: >> > I am currently working on an Epson PX8 system. I bought this on E-bay, so >> > the history is essentially unknown, but I was told it was 'untested' >> > which I took to mean non-working. >> some manuals are here: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/info.html http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/manuals/info.htm l http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/in fo.html dcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/px4/info.ht ml http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/px-8/tf20/info.h tml Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 24 17:47:05 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM labels Message-ID: <20051224234705.93706.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> any gluey residues can be removed quite easily with a product called Afta, available at hardware storer, etc. It shouldnt harm most plastics, but its always a good idea to test on an inconspicuous area. Please dont be alarmed in the event of a spelling mistake. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > All: > > > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque > > labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use > > electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue > > residue. > > I normally use the silver write-protect tabs you get with 8" floppies. > > -tony __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 20:50:39 2005 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:50:39 -0700 Subject: HP 163x LIF format In-Reply-To: References: <7d9403580512211504n3626f1a6hf325841622c5c66d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d9403580512241850k640ba8d2ke025441dcf65d293@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tony, I found those, thank you. I found that the HP 163x series uses 9 characters of the first 10, uses the same type code.The one char not used in the visible name is actually in lowercase, and defines which type it is .... I have a dump ready to document them... Thanks, Maurice On 12/22/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > I have been able to figure out the LIF Directory format for HP 163x > floppy > > files. I will write up a doc for that. It is possible to mount a floppy > > under Linux, set some parameters for the floppy drive, and dd it out to > an > > image file. This way one can read the floppy with the LIFUTILs out > there... > > Have you looked at my LIF Utilities for Linux (available, I hope, from > http://www.hpcc.org/, if not can send you a .tar.gz file). There might be > some useful stuff there relating to reading directory entries, etc. > > I wrote this to handle the files used on the handheld calculators, and > therefore there won't be explicit types defined for other files. But it's > faitly clear how to add them. Ask me if you need some help. > > > > In the XMas break I'll work on a doc to make that info available. > > > > However, I'm also looking how a dir entry looks for for example an > Inverse > > assembler and executable code. There is a way to load a program on these > > LA's and execute them. > > I am sure yoy know this, but the things you need to find out are the 16 > bit file type code and the contents of the 4 type-dependant bytes. The > latter could depend on the file size, or the execution entry point, or... > > -tony > From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sat Dec 24 20:50:39 2005 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:50:39 -0700 Subject: HP 163x LIF format In-Reply-To: References: <7d9403580512211504n3626f1a6hf325841622c5c66d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d9403580512241850k640ba8d2ke025441dcf65d293@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tony, I found those, thank you. I found that the HP 163x series uses 9 characters of the first 10, uses the same type code.The one char not used in the visible name is actually in lowercase, and defines which type it is .... I have a dump ready to document them... Thanks, Maurice On 12/22/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > I have been able to figure out the LIF Directory format for HP 163x > floppy > > files. I will write up a doc for that. It is possible to mount a floppy > > under Linux, set some parameters for the floppy drive, and dd it out to > an > > image file. This way one can read the floppy with the LIFUTILs out > there... > > Have you looked at my LIF Utilities for Linux (available, I hope, from > http://www.hpcc.org/, if not can send you a .tar.gz file). There might be > some useful stuff there relating to reading directory entries, etc. > > I wrote this to handle the files used on the handheld calculators, and > therefore there won't be explicit types defined for other files. But it's > faitly clear how to add them. Ask me if you need some help. > > > > In the XMas break I'll work on a doc to make that info available. > > > > However, I'm also looking how a dir entry looks for for example an > Inverse > > assembler and executable code. There is a way to load a program on these > > LA's and execute them. > > I am sure yoy know this, but the things you need to find out are the 16 > bit file type code and the contents of the 4 type-dependant bytes. The > latter could depend on the file size, or the execution entry point, or... > > -tony > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Dec 23 16:30:23 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:30:23 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> Maybe we drink into a slap-happy slumber and temporarilly forget about possible job endings with the new year (been hearing a LOT of companies are laying off people for x-mas and possibly my company too...). -John Boffemmyer IV AKA 'never met a Heineken I couldn't drink' At 05:17 PM 12/23/2005, you wrote: >Thank you very much. My best wishes go to the group for a happy and healthy >holiday and a Happy New Year. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of M H Stein >Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 3:54 PM >To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >Subject: It's a most wonderful time... > > >Just want to send everyone here my best wishes for a love-filled holiday >with friends and family, and a fruitful new year collection-wise. > >mike -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.6/213 - Release Date: 12/23/2005 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Dec 27 01:16:35 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:16:35 -0600 Subject: Anyone tried NetBSD 3 VAX yet? Message-ID: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> Has anyone tried the new NetBSD 3.0 on VAX yet? the 2.x series had a broken install (among other things), and took a bit to get running on my setup (3176), just wondering if v3/VAX had any big bugs From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 01:33:48 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:33:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20051226233123.N5295@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Maybe we drink into a slap-happy slumber and temporarilly forget > about possible job endings with the new year (been hearing a LOT of > companies are laying off people for x-mas and possibly my company too...). > -John Boffemmyer IV AKA 'never met a Heineken I couldn't drink' 2006 will be a year of "constructive discharge". ("constructive dismissal" for those on the other side of the pond) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Dec 27 03:49:18 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:49:18 -0800 Subject: Anybody know what these are for? Message-ID: <43B10E1E.5020703@pacbell.net> I have a pair of Pertec-branded circuit boards, 14" x 16"x, marked as follows: PE WRITE PC86V1 101387-01K 101388J PE READ 101389-01J1 101383H1 I was told that they came from a tape drive. They are primarily populated with 7400-series TTL, with date codes around early 1976. Each has a small daughterboard, 2.5" x 3", with discrete components -- I would imagine these would be the analog circuits for read/write. Does anyone recognize what drive these boards come from? I don't have any particular need for them, so if anyone has a drive that could use them, I'd be willing to part with them easily. --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Dec 27 03:56:02 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 01:56:02 -0800 Subject: Available: Multibus form-factor Augat boards Message-ID: <43B10FB2.4030203@pacbell.net> I have four of these to get rid of. They are used and wired, and most have bypass capacitors soldered in on the component side, but the wiring side is wire-wrap only. These aren't the greatest boards, and I doubt that unwrapping them is any fun, which is why I culled them from the lot that I bought. They are available for the cost of postage, however, or free for local pickup in Santa Clara, if anyone is interested in them before they go to the scrapper. --Bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 27 04:24:51 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:24:51 GMT Subject: looking for Plessey board Doc's In-Reply-To: Jerry Wright "looking for Plessey board Doc's" (Dec 26, 10:12) References: <43B03293.3040205@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <10512271024.ZM8104@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 26 2005, 10:12, Jerry Wright wrote: > I Have a 2 Plessey Boards for a PDP11 and I can > not find much on them. > > - 701840 may be a tape controller > - 703360 This is a Memory board > > There was a site with plessy info. but it seems to > be gone. I beleive it was in the UK. I think you mean Kevin Murrell's web page at PS8 Computing, http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP11/plessey.htm. Sadly, it's gone. And I didn't keep a copy :-( I might have an email address for Kevin, so I'll see if I can find anything. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 27 07:36:30 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:36:30 -0800 Subject: Anybody know what these are for? In-Reply-To: <43B10E1E.5020703@pacbell.net> References: <43B10E1E.5020703@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43B1435E.9000603@msm.umr.edu> William Maddox wrote: > I have a pair of Pertec-branded circuit boards, > 14" x 16"x, marked as follows: > > PE WRITE > PC86V1 > 101387-01K > 101388J > > PE READ > 101389-01J1 > 101383H1 > these are formatter daughter boards to a 7000 series tape drive for 1600bpi Phase Encoded. there would be NRZI, or 800bpi boards for the deck should one want to configure it for that mode of operation. I think the NRZI may have consisted of a single board, rather than two boards, for the Pertec decks. Jim > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 08:00:22 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:00:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone tried NetBSD 3 VAX yet? In-Reply-To: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> References: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 12/27/05, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Has anyone tried the new NetBSD 3.0 on VAX yet? the 2.x series had a broken install (among other things), and took a bit to get running on my setup (3176), just wondering if v3/VAX had any big bugs I installed NetBSD 2.x from CDROM to VAX3900. Just remember to press 'x' when you can not maneuver the install namual. vax, 9000 > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 08:43:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:43:48 +0000 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> <009f01c6080e$ba14af80$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: On 12/23/05, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Maybe we drink into a slap-happy slumber and temporarilly forget > about possible job endings with the new year (been hearing a LOT of > companies are laying off people for x-mas and possibly my company too...). Indeed... I was out of work at the holidays in 1999, 2000 and 2002... (with different jobs in-between each) ...for me, Xmas is a day to celebrate being employed (whenever possible). -ethan From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 27 10:00:59 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:00:59 -0500 Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC References: <006801c60a35$23f3ea10$6501a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <00aa01c60afe$bb3dd380$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > If anyone wants one, I'll sell them for $12 each plus $6 > shipping. Important for me would be a cable to go with these. My understanding was the twisted cable worked only for two-drive chains and for more than 2, you needed to either strap the drives individually or make a very specific cable. John A. From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 27 10:17:46 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:17:46 -0500 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay References: Message-ID: <00da01c60b01$156bd8a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > The scrap value for this whole pile is probably only a little more than > the $10.00. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5845564149 Anybody know what interface IBM would use for that 9-track tapedrive? John A. From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 27 10:54:06 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:54:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone tried NetBSD 3 VAX yet? In-Reply-To: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> References: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <43B171AE.3030107@srv.net> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: >Has anyone tried the new NetBSD 3.0 on VAX yet? the 2.x series had a broken install (among other things), and took a bit to get running on my setup (3176), just wondering if v3/VAX had any big bugs > > You could try it using simh, before putting it on real hardware. simh makes a great throwaway scratch monkey. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 11:39:24 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:39:24 -0800 Subject: OT: "Best" Linux Distro? In-Reply-To: <20051227015558.GB6586@darwin.ugr.es> References: <4396D042.1060802@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20051207112349.05373e00@mail.30below.com> <20051227015558.GB6586@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: I have been using the new Ubuntu (Version 5.1) and like it a lot. My SO is just becoming computer literate and since the box we got for her (70th Birthday present) came with Ubuntu she started using that, successfully. She still doesn't have a clue what a "window" is but is doing email and searching out info on the web for her upcoming trip to Costa Rica. Ubuntu is easy. I use the live disks for diagnosing other systems to see if the problem is hardware or software. If the Ubuntu disk boots more than likely it is not a hardware problem. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 27 12:41:54 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:41:54 -0500 Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <20051226233123.N5295@shell.lmi.net> References: <01C607D9.279DF9C0@mse-d03> <7.0.0.16.2.20051223172846.04509e30@boff-net.dhs.org> <20051226233123.N5295@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512271341.54610.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 27 December 2005 02:33 am, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > Maybe we drink into a slap-happy slumber and temporarilly forget > > about possible job endings with the new year (been hearing a LOT of > > companies are laying off people for x-mas and possibly my company > > too...). -John Boffemmyer IV AKA 'never met a Heineken I couldn't drink' > > 2006 will be a year of "constructive discharge". > ("constructive dismissal" for those on the other side of the pond) Having been unemployed for 2-1/2 years now, this isn't going to make a whole lot of difference to me... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Dec 27 12:55:02 2005 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:55:02 -0600 Subject: Epson PF10 problems Message-ID: <9e2403920512271055v43872dc7jc77719fa7041e086@mail.gmail.com> > You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter > compartment. The machine should run from the main battery > (or a 5V PSU connected in place of the main battey) if there > are no otehr problems. Both of my PX-8s (an earlier and a later model) will run with the 6V wall wart connected into the proper socket when the main and wedge batteries are removed. I wouldn't exactly recommend bypassing the little bit of protection the charger input provides. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 27 12:59:39 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:59:39 -0800 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <00da01c60b01$156bd8a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <00da01c60b01$156bd8a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43B18F1B.2040500@msm.umr.edu> John Allain wrote: > >Anybody know what interface IBM would use for that 9-track tapedrive? > >John A. > > > > any adaptec scsi or scsi controller for which there are tape drivers if using windows. any scsi adapter on linux, or bsd would work, as the drive would be a streaming block device and would not require drivers for access. there are a number of nice things in this "pile" other than the tape drive, including the 6262 printer. The big problem for me is being in Los Angeles, and this is in New York IIRC. also requires pickup, no shipping. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 07:20:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:20:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512262320.30665.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 26, 5 11:20:30 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday 26 December 2005 05:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > The roms in mine seem to be hand-labeled too, I think there are > > > > > three > > > > > > > > Are you talking about a PX4 or a PX8? > > > > > > A PX8. > > > > Actually, the ROMs in my PX8 have no labels at all. They have Epson part > > numbers stamped on the package, but nothing to easily identify them as > > the utilities and BASIC roms. > > I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable WordStar, Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well. The EPROM you really need is the utilities one. Without it, you don't have PIP, and therefore no way to copy files. > and I forget what else (I'll know when I find it by looking at the labels :-) > > > [PX8 wedge] > > > > > Yes, there's that modem, and I forget what else. I'd grab it and have > > > a look but don't recall just where it is at the moment. > > > > FWIW, that techncial manual I mentioned includes schematics for some of > > the add-ons. Note that the RAMdisks are rather complicated, they have > > their own Z80 processor and a memory control gate array > > (similar/identical to the one in the PX8 I think). > > Their own z80? Hm. I did download that stuff, all of it, but haven't read Yes, the RAMdisk units contain a Z80, a litle EPROM/ROM, and communicate with the main PX8 via a couple of I/O ports. The RAMdisk is really a second dedicated computer. > it yet. And a few other things besides. There's a pile of interesting stuff > on that site... > > > Digging in my junk box (again), I found the Epson accostic modem that was > > sold for these machines. It's just a plain 300 baud unit with an RS232 > > interface, but it's nice to have the 'right' peripherals. > > I can't recall what other jacks there were on the back of that unit, just > that there were a bunch of them... >From memory, a PX8 has the following connectors : A coaxial power connector for the charger An 8 pin mini-DIN 'serial' port for the disk drives. It can also be used for a printer, but only at a cery limited selection of baud rates. It is, at least, at RS232 levels. Only 5 pins are wired (ground, TxD, RxD, handshake out, handshake in, the latter being on the pins used on the RS232 poer for DTR and DSR). An 8 pin mini-DIN 'RS232' port All pins usedm you get the normal hardware handshake lines. A 3.5mm stereo jack socket (like a 'walkman' headphone socket) 'BCD' port. This is for a BarCoDe reader, the connections being ground, signal and +5V power out from the PX8. From what I can see the signal goes both to one channel of the ADC chip and to a pin on one of the gate arrays which contains logic to measure the time between transitions of the signal. Note there's no barcode software in the BIOS ROM Another 3.5mm jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an analogue input to another channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a TTL-level trigger signal A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an external loudspeaker. A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus lines. > > You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter > > compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU > > connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems. > > To the battery connector? Ok... Connect a _reguylated 5V PSU_ (nothing else) to the battery connector inside. I mentioned where to get the sockets in an earlier message, you can get the polarity from the technical manual or by examining the NiCd pack. I will emphasise this again because it's important. There is no regulator circuit between the battery and the standby supply line (maintains RAM, real time clock, etc when the machine is turned off) or, indeed the main logic supply line. Do not connect an unregulated supply here, you will wipe out chips throughoug the machine. > > Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must > > be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well > > do a lot of damage with the latter. > > Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or to the > charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I use with it > is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's labeled with > that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with it when I got it. The wall-wart is an unregulated thing. Claimed to be 6V 600mA on the label (and in the manual), in reality it's nearer 12V off-load. This charges the main battery, and the machine depends on the fact that the the battery will clamp the voltage to 4.8V or so to limit the voltage on the logic supply lines. Do not, I repeat, use that PSU in place of the battery, do not, in fact, plug it in without as good battery in place (there is a proteciton zener diode, but I don't trust it!)> I run mine from a regulated electornic workbench supply connected in place of the battery (and set between 4.8V and 5V). I would think the 5V supply from another computer would be OK (e.g. an old PC power supply), but I've not tried it, so don't blame me if you kill all the ICs in the PX8... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 07:22:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:22:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anybody know what these are for? In-Reply-To: <43B10E1E.5020703@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Dec 27, 5 01:49:18 am Message-ID: > > I have a pair of Pertec-branded circuit boards, > 14" x 16"x, marked as follows: > > PE WRITE > PC86V1 > 101387-01K > 101388J > > PE READ > 101389-01J1 > 101383H1 My guess is that 'PE' is 'Phase Encoding'. IIRC that's the standard used for 1600 bpi tapes (800 bpi being NRZ). So yes, I think they come from a 9-track tape drive or controller/formatter. As to which particular drive, I haven't a clue. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 07:29:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:29:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: It's a most wonderful time... In-Reply-To: <200512271341.54610.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 27, 5 01:41:54 pm Message-ID: > > 2006 will be a year of "constructive discharge". > > ("constructive dismissal" for those on the other side of the pond) > > Having been unemployed for 2-1/2 years now, this isn't going to make a whole > lot of difference to me... :-( Oh well, about a third as long as me, then :-( The only difference this is likely to make to me is to make it even harder to find even possible jobs to apply for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 07:31:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:31:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <9e2403920512271055v43872dc7jc77719fa7041e086@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Dec 27, 5 12:55:02 pm Message-ID: > > > You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter > > compartment. The machine should run from the main battery > > (or a 5V PSU connected in place of the main battey) if there > > are no otehr problems. > > Both of my PX-8s (an earlier and a later model) will run with the 6V > wall wart connected into the proper socket when the main and wedge > batteries are removed. I wouldn't exactly recommend bypassing the > little bit of protection the charger input provides. I would strongly recomend against doing that. There is no real regulation in the input circuit of the PX8, it depends on the battery to clamp the supply voltage. Yes, there is a protection zener (D19 iIRC, I had to replace it on my machine, it was litereally blown off the board), but it's something lik 7.5V so it doesn't offer much protection. Running the machine from a _regulated_ 4.8V or 5V supply in place of the battery is safe. The logic gets that voltage (less a little bit dropped across the switching transistor), much the same as it would get if there was a NiCd installed. -tony From allain at panix.com Tue Dec 27 13:48:51 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:48:51 -0500 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay References: <00da01c60b01$156bd8a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <43B18F1B.2040500@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <0fea01c60b1e$904986e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > The big problem for me is being in Los Angeles, and this is in New > York IIRC. also requires pickup, no shipping. If you are Really interested, make me an offer to spilt the lot. No actual guarantees as of yet, but I am considering bidding. Since many on the list are unemployed I figure this won't fly, but I'll mention it anyway. John A. in NY From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Dec 27 13:47:38 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:47:38 GMT Subject: HP logic analysers - IAs and utils? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ab5f9df4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Erik Baigar wrote: > What kind of interface do you use? Wrote something > similar for my 1661a based upon Solaris and gpib. GPIB. I'm planning to rewrite the communication section to use RS232 at some point. > That sounds interesting! Does it mean, the analyzer > does the operations? I know, that such software was > available for these analyzers and I'd be interested > in this stuff. > Can the code be modified (e.g. is it possible to implement > an other CPU?)? The Inverse Assembler toolkit was on Agilent's FTP site a few years ago. I'm not sure where you could get a copy now, though. The assembler works fine on pretty much any machine, but IALDOWN is very fussy. > Depends on what communication library you used... The National Instruments GPIB library, under Delphi for the IAL uploader and under MinGW (read: "GCC for Win32") for the symbol table uploader. One major limitation is that you can't have more than 200 symbols in the analyser's symbol memory at once. It's great for spotting hardware access patterns, but not much good if you're debugging a multi-Kbyte PC BIOS. Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... It is better to be brief than boring. From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Dec 27 14:01:42 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:01:42 -0500 Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512271501.42206.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 27 December 2005 08:20 am, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable > > WordStar, > > Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC > fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well. The wedge has a socket, too. > The EPROM you really need is the utilities one. Without it, you don't > have PIP, and therefore no way to copy files. I think nsweep might be in there, though I'm not sure, it's been too long. > From memory, a PX8 has the following connectors : > > A coaxial power connector for the charger > > An 8 pin mini-DIN 'serial' port for the disk drives. It can also be used > for a printer, but only at a cery limited selection of baud rates. It is, > at least, at RS232 levels. Only 5 pins are wired (ground, TxD, RxD, > handshake out, handshake in, the latter being on the pins used on the > RS232 poer for DTR and DSR). > > An 8 pin mini-DIN 'RS232' port All pins usedm you get the normal > hardware handshake lines. > > A 3.5mm stereo jack socket (like a 'walkman' headphone socket) 'BCD' > port. This is for a BarCoDe reader, the connections being ground, signal > and +5V power out from the PX8. From what I can see the signal goes both > to one channel of the ADC chip and to a pin on one of the gate arrays > which contains logic to measure the time between transitions of the > signal. Note there's no barcode software in the BIOS ROM Sounds about right. > Another 3.5mm jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an analogue input to another > channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a > TTL-level trigger signal It'd be nifty to see if I can find some use for them, once I get it working. > A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an external loudspeaker. > > A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus > lines. I think that's what the wedge connects to. > > > You can turn it off with the little switch inside the main batter > > > compartment. The machine should run from the main battery (or a 5V PSU > > > connected in place of the main battey) if there are no otehr problems. > > > > To the battery connector? Ok... > > Connect a _reguylated 5V PSU_ (nothing else) to the battery connector > inside. I mentioned where to get the sockets in an earlier message, you > can get the polarity from the technical manual or by examining the NiCd > pack. I *made* that pack, the one that came with it was shot. I also used to run a retail battery store, and salvaged a whole bunch of similar connectors from cordless phone batteries that folks brought in for replacement, and I'm sure that one of those will work. A regulated 5V supply should be no problem for me. > I will emphasise this again because it's important. There is no regulator > circuit between the battery and the standby supply line (maintains RAM, > real time clock, etc when the machine is turned off) or, indeed the main > logic supply line. Do not connect an unregulated supply here, you will > wipe out chips throughoug the machine. > > > > Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply > > > must be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may > > > well do a lot of damage with the latter. > > > > Are you talking about going right into the battery input connector? Or > > to the charger input on the rear of the machine? The "power supply" I > > use with it is a wall wart, I don't recall what it's rated at, but it's > > labeled with that dymo tape stuff as being for that machine, came with > > it when I got it. > > The wall-wart is an unregulated thing. Claimed to be 6V 600mA on the > label (and in the manual), in reality it's nearer 12V off-load. This > charges the main battery, and the machine depends on the fact that the > the battery will clamp the voltage to 4.8V or so to limit the voltage on > the logic supply lines. Do not, I repeat, use that PSU in place of the > battery, do not, in fact, plug it in without as good battery in place > (there is a proteciton zener diode, but I don't trust it!)> Hm. > I run mine from a regulated electornic workbench supply connected in > place of the battery (and set between 4.8V and 5V). I would think the 5V > supply from another computer would be OK (e.g. an old PC power supply), > but I've not tried it, so don't blame me if you kill all the ICs in the > PX8... I have enough 7805s and similar to deal with that, for sure. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Dec 27 14:10:26 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:10:26 -0600 Subject: Anyone tried NetBSD 3.0 on VAX yet? Message-ID: I have NetBSD 2.1 running on my minibox (sort of- curses isn't working and I haven't gotten around to troubleshooting it yet). I was asking because DSL isn't available here, which makes getting the software a bit difficult, otherwise I'd try it out. From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 27 14:12:45 2005 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:12:45 +0100 Subject: PX-8 power supply. Was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512271800.jBRI0cdN032965@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512271800.jBRI0cdN032965@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43B1A03D.1020100@xs4all.nl> >Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must >be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well >do a lot of damage with the latter. > > The standard adapter for the HX-20, PX-8 and PX-4 delivers 6 V DC at 600ma. If you use a regulated 6 V or lower power supply, the machine may work, but batteries will not be charged. At http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/adapter.html you can find some more info on proper power supply. >-tony > > Fred Jan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 16:01:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512271501.42206.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 27, 5 03:01:42 pm Message-ID: > > On Tuesday 27 December 2005 08:20 am, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't think this one has BASIC in it. There are eproms, Portable > > > WordStar, > > > > Probably not if you have wordstar. There are only 2 EPROM sockets, BASIC > > fills an EPEOM, I think wordstar would as well. > > The wedge has a socket, too. I have no idea how (if at all) that appears to CP/M. There is, of course, an EPROM in the wedge which contains the firmware for the Z80 that controls the RAMdisk stuff. I asusme you mean a second socket for a user EPROM. > > Another 3.5mm jack socket 'ADC In'. This is an analogue input to another > > channel of the ADC chip, the other connecitons being ground and a > > TTL-level trigger signal > > It'd be nifty to see if I can find some use for them, once I get it working. There's a program in the user manual (which is a suprisingly good manual, certainly by modern standards) which uses the ADC for a games paddle. The program is written in BASIC with a bit of machine code poked in to RAM, and it is explained what is going on. Since the ADC is connected to the PSU control processor, it can't be directly read by the Z80, but there is a BIOS routine to do it. > > > A 3.5mm mono jack socket 'SP out' for an external loudspeaker. > > > > A 50 pin header 'System Bus' which is essentially the unbuffered Z80 bus > > lines. > > I think that's what the wedge connects to. Correct. > I *made* that pack, the one that came with it was shot. I also used to run a OK, mine came with no battery at all... > retail battery store, and salvaged a whole bunch of similar connectors from > cordless phone batteries that folks brought in for replacement, and I'm sure > that one of those will work. As I said, if not, I have a source of replacements. I think they ship worldwide, but the cost may be fairly high. Incidentally, does anyone know a (UK, preferably) source of the thin, large heat-shrink sleeving used round battery packs? Maplin used to sell it, but no more. Youy have to realise that I have no idea who I am talking to on this list, I have no idea what your technical skill level is. I'd rather post some elementary information and risk insulting you than not mention it and then find I've ruined some rare machine (or worse still have that machine in as a repair job). > > I run mine from a regulated electornic workbench supply connected in > > place of the battery (and set between 4.8V and 5V). I would think the 5V > > supply from another computer would be OK (e.g. an old PC power supply), > > but I've not tried it, so don't blame me if you kill all the ICs in the > > PX8... > > I have enough 7805s and similar to deal with that, for sure. I can't rememebr how much current it takes, but a 7805 should easily do it (even when the serial port and/or the tape drive are in use). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 27 16:10:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PX-8 power supply. Was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43B1A03D.1020100@xs4all.nl> from "Fred Jan Kraan" at Dec 27, 5 09:12:45 pm Message-ID: > > > >Do remember there are no regulators in the PX8 PSU. The power supply must > >be close to 5V (4.8V is OK), not a random unregulated one. You may well > >do a lot of damage with the latter. > > > > > The standard adapter for the HX-20, PX-8 and PX-4 delivers 6 V DC at > 600ma. If you use a regulated 6 V or lower power supply, the machine may > work, but batteries will not be charged. At For the time, I am talking about running the machine from a bench supply _without having a battery pack installed_. Rechargeable sells are too expensive for me to buy a set just to test a machine (and these sub-C tagged cells have to be soldered up into the right pack, you can't buy a few and move them between devices easily, unlike, say, AA cells). And I don't use the machine often enough that I would get anything like a reasonable life out of a pack of cells. Yes, I loose the memory and configuration when I turn the supply off. This is not a problem for me testing it. If I start using it seriously, I'll buy the cells. > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/adapter.html you can find some > more info on proper power supply. Now what does 6V, 600mA really mean? There are at least 3 reasonable explanations of those figures (and a lot more unreasonable ones) : 1) The open-circuit voltage is 6V, the short-circuit current is 600mA 2) The open-circuit voltage is 6V, the rated output current is 600mA 3) One point on the I,V curve, hopefully near the point where the adapter will be used, is 600mA, 6V. Now, I wonder what the actuall I,V curve of that adapter is. And I wonder how critical it is (knowing that HP chargers were designed to have poor regulation, and the charger circuit depended on this. Yes, I have measured the I,V curves of many HP calculator chargers). I have seen the (your?) web page which gives a hand-drawn schematic of the Epson adapter. IIRC it's a 2-diode 'biphase' full wave rectifier. I assume this was the one built into a case with a European mains plug. With my PX8/PF10 I got a wall wart, which may be something to do with it, it may not (some other items included in that lot on E-bay had nothing to do with the machine, but were useful to me anyway). It's in a case with a UK 13A (BS1363) plug on it. It has a bridge-type full-wave rectifer. Of course it's very possible that different designs were used in different counttries. I have not put the mains on it yet. But it would be useful to know what the 'correct' adapter's I,V curve is before risking my machine (I can easily measuer the curve for this one). Incidentally, do you know if the PX4, PX8, PF10 and HX20 all use the same adapter? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 27 16:23:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 14:23:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC In-Reply-To: <00aa01c60afe$bb3dd380$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <006801c60a35$23f3ea10$6501a8c0@barry> <00aa01c60afe$bb3dd380$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20051227142033.G22648@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, John Allain wrote: > > If anyone wants one, I'll sell them for $12 each plus $6 > > shipping. > Important for me would be a cable to go with these. > My understanding was the twisted cable worked only > for two-drive chains and for more than 2, you needed > to either strap the drives individually or make a very > specific cable. MOST 4 floppy controllers for PC (yes, there ARE exceptions), use two 34 pin (2 x 17) connectors, with an ordinary PC 2 drive twisted cable on each. The original 5150 FDC board used a card edge for two internal drives, and a DC-37 on the bracket for two external drives. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 27 19:13:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:13:40 -0600 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> Allison wrote: >>> >>>S100 linear supplies are unregulated (usually) before they get on the bus >>>so a load is NOT needed. Do insure the caps are discharged before >>>inserting >>>any board. >>> >>>Allison > > > > Anything under a 20W appliance bulb initially. The lower the wattage the > higher will be the initial resistance and lower peak current. I'm ready to begin the power-up process with this Cromemco Z-2D. The cards all look good, the backplane and cabling all look intact, and the PSU itself looks clean and shows no scorching or other damage. Oh, and I've cobbled up a power cable for it. ;) I understand the principle of using a light as a current limiter, but I have one question - say I start with a 7.5W bulb, how long should I run the PSU at that level, and should I then step up through 20W, 40W, etc? If so, I have bulbs up to 200W; where should I stop? Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 27 20:25:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:25:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk project is canceled In-Reply-To: <43A8AEE9.4060102@deltasoft.com> References: <20051220043045.GYTT15536.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43A8AEE9.4060102@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <200512280231.VAA20847@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What is it about you guys that makes you feel you can denigrate > someone for the decisions they make about their own property? Like the way most of us denigrate people for scrapping computers - their own property - rather than finding them proper (FSVO "proper") homes? Not that that makes anything else better or worse. Just pointing out that "it's his property" does not necessarily imply "he should not be criticized for what he does with it". (Historically, at least. Perhaps it should, FSVO "should" - but that's a separate argument.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 27 21:29:17 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:29:17 -0500 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43B2068D.7050400@jcwren.com> I've powered up the SOL-20 and nothing smoked :) First, I pulled the 17,000uf and 54,000uf electrolytic cans, and worked them up to 15V through a 10K resistor. I later stepped this down to 1K. I let each cap "cook" for about 48 hours. I did this while I was waiting for an ESR meter I ordered to come in. The meter arrived today, and I checked the two big caps and the two 2500uf caps on the power supply board. They were right in spec. I then reinstalled the caps and disconnected the supply from the motherboard and the riser card, then powered it up through a variac. The supplies looked good, so I plugged them into the motherboard and riser, attached a monitor (which I first had to get working...) and it sorta came up. I appear to have a bad 2102L in the video memory. Bit 0 was always on, and the problem followed moving the chip. The keyboard is dead, except for the LEDs. The next post has a question about that. --jc Doc Shipley wrote: > Allison wrote: > >>>> >>>> S100 linear supplies are unregulated (usually) before they get on >>>> the bus >>>> so a load is NOT needed. Do insure the caps are discharged before >>>> inserting >>>> any board. >>>> >>>> Allison >>> >> >> >> >> Anything under a 20W appliance bulb initially. The lower the wattage >> the higher will be the initial resistance and lower peak current. > > > I'm ready to begin the power-up process with this Cromemco Z-2D. > The cards all look good, the backplane and cabling all look intact, > and the PSU itself looks clean and shows no scorching or other > damage. Oh, and I've cobbled up a power cable for it. ;) > > I understand the principle of using a light as a current limiter, > but I have one question - say I start with a 7.5W bulb, how long > should I run the PSU at that level, and should I then step up through > 20W, 40W, etc? If so, I have bulbs up to 200W; where should I stop? > > > Doc From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Dec 27 21:35:54 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:35:54 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question Message-ID: <43B2081A.5040808@jcwren.com> The SOL-20 has powered up, but the keyboard is sorta FUBARed. The LEDs work, but none of the keys do. I pulled the keyboard, and shorted a couple row & column drivers, and the keystrobe strobed. I ended up removing the PCB from the key assembly, and determined that pads inside the keys are shot to hell. They look like they should be mylar coated or silvered Kapton discs with a foam backing. The foam is mostly decayed, and there's virtually no silvering left on any of the discs. They few that do have only the slightest fragments. I assume this is supposed to be conductive, because pressing a disc against the PCB pads doesn't trigger a key, while touching the PCB with my finger does. Can these be rebuilt, or are replacement switches available? --jc From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Dec 27 22:00:53 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:00:53 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 56 References: <200512180752.jBI7q2h9002758@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003a01c60b63$64b0e420$0300a8c0@downstairs2> The Apple 1 went on eBay for $2550. Bryan, this should impress your wife. Michael Holley > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:40:20 -0700 > From: "Bryan K. Blackburn" > Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion > > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > Really cool, just the same. > > -Bryan > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 27 22:24:21 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:24:21 -0600 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43B2068D.7050400@jcwren.com> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> <43B2068D.7050400@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43B21375.9090301@mdrconsult.com> J.C. Wren wrote: > I've powered up the SOL-20 and nothing smoked :) > First, I pulled the 17,000uf and 54,000uf electrolytic cans, and > worked them up to 15V through a 10K resistor. I later stepped this down > to 1K. I let each cap "cook" for about 48 hours. I did this while I > was waiting for an ESR meter I ordered to come in. http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm > The meter arrived > today, and I checked the two big caps and the two 2500uf caps on the > power supply board. They were right in spec. > I then reinstalled the caps and disconnected the supply from the > motherboard and the riser card, then powered it up through a variac. > The supplies looked good, so I plugged them into the motherboard and > riser, attached a monitor (which I first had to get working...) and it > sorta came up. Well, I ran into a very unexpected glitch. ACE Hardware sold me a not-just-used-but-smoked outlet. In a new, sealed box. I'm not quite impatient enough to pull one out of the wall, so I'll be up on jacks till tomorrow evening. Bummer about the keyboard. I hope it's an easy fix. To tell the truth, keyboard problems are one big reason I lean toward systems that can run with a serial console. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 27 22:45:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:45:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun Open Firmware - insiders? In-Reply-To: <7811.1135157136@www18.gmx.net> References: <7811.1135157136@www18.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200512280450.XAA21266@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> (...) Why does it have to obtain the machine's IP, that of the tftp >>> server and what else via rarp? >> It can't obtain anything but its own address via rarp. [...] (Well, and the address of the machine that answered the RARP request.) >> It's possible that it initially queries whoever answered its RARP, >> but if it gets no answer it broadcasts the query - and I think it >> broadcasts the TFTP request too if necessary. > Funny...I don't remember setting up a bootp(aram)d, I started getting > tftp requests as soon as the rarp table was setup. Then I guess it must TFTP from whoever answered the RARP. > I also don't think the requests were broadcast: I was running another > machine ready to serve tftp at the same time and that one didn't get > any requests. That's normal if the TFTP is answered, but... > I was even able to shut down Linux after the rarp resolution (if tftp > was disabled), bring the same system up with Windows (under the same > IP) and have the Sun slurp its bootloader image from there. ...this is unusual, if the other machine *still* didn't get any requests. I suppose it must be a PROM version difference, with some machines, or some versions, behaving differently from others. I'm quite sure I've seen requests - TFTP requests, I think, but maybe not - being sent unicast at first and then broadcast if the first one goes unanswered. Oh well. > It looks like I can initiating the execution of unnamed subroutine > (f00...) by entering f00... execute; any gotchas there? I have no idea; I don't (didn't) know enough FORTH to try that. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Dec 27 22:52:50 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:52:50 -0800 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay Message-ID: <004101c60b6a$92d06e50$0300a8c0@downstairs2> The Apple 1 went on eBay for $2550. Bryan, this should impress your wife. Michael Holley > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:40:20 -0700 > From: "Bryan K. Blackburn" > Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion > > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > Really cool, just the same. > > -Bryan From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 27 23:02:56 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:02:56 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>It's on an additional bracket (the only expansion slot?)... Maybe someone added >>it to use an older mouse? Seems stupid to tie up the only expansion slot with a DB9... > > I doubt it's a serial connection - most likely it's for driving an > external mono monitor. I'm beginning to think you're right, since I just powered it on and I get a blank 50% gray desktop screen -- no icon, no screen updating, just the 50% on-off-on-off default desktop pattern. So I built some 6.0.8 1.44MB startup disks and the first one boots, loads, and definitely does about 30 seconds of *something* but I can't see what. I tried moving the mouse pointer to the upper left and right, thinking that the display board turned the Mac screen into a "window" onto a larger virtual desktop, but nothing. So, if this is a mono output board, what kind of DB9 mono monitor can I attach to it? I've got an IBM mono TTL monitor next to me, will that work? Or was there some goofy brand of high-res mono monitor this board was designed to work with? Or should I just crack the mac and take the board out and sell it on epay? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Dec 27 23:09:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:09:07 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > vacuum' out of your CRT. Geez -- so is that the board I see at the top of the tube in this picture: http://modeltrain.com/mac/se30/6.jpg I bump that board and the tube will implode? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 28 00:14:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 01:14:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> <80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200512280622.BAA01941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 > that I pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten > years old and it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. I've got one. I don't know what the model number is; markings that might be relevant are 0019329-9602X0MJS9 3701964-03 EX9MJS9 CFP1080E SAG01 8AS051 G54332 9602 Q SG3 It's an SCA drive, so I don't have any machines I can conveniently pop it into to check whether it works, but it's probably about ten years old (the chip datecodes I can see range from 9531 to 9543) and I have no reason to think it less than fully working; it's in the "working last time I checked" collection, not the "dead" pile. I also have an HP drive that's a good deal older, weighs about what I do, pulls something like 7A mains current (running - more like 12A spike on startup), and holds all of about half a gigabyte - but it too worked perfectly last time I fired it up, which was within the last few years. I can't easily get to it or I'd cite its model number. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Dec 28 00:30:31 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 07:30:31 +0100 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <43B2081A.5040808@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <71A3B942-776B-11DA-A5B6-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > They look like they should be mylar coated or silvered Kapton discs > with a foam backing. The foam is mostly decayed, and there's > virtually no silvering left on any of the discs. They few that do > have only the slightest fragments. I assume this is supposed to be > conductive, because pressing a disc against the PCB pads doesn't > trigger a key, while touching the PCB with my finger does. > > Can these be rebuilt, or are replacement switches available? > They are capacitive, not conductive. i.e. you should not short the PCB pads. They can be rebuilt, either by homemade pads or , if you can find them, replacement pads. Google for sol20 keyboard. Jos Dreesen From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Dec 28 00:40:15 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 07:40:15 +0100 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net><20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net><43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252><80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512280622.BAA01941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000801c60b79$8fcec940$2101a8c0@finans> > > On a lighter note, anyone ever had a Conner drive? I've got a CFS425 > > that I pulled out of a 1996-model Acorn RiscPC600. It's nearly ten > > years old and it's still fully functional. Now *that's* engineering. > > I've got one. I don't know what the model number is; markings that > might be relevant are > > 0019329-9602X0MJS9 > 3701964-03 > EX9MJS9 > CFP1080E > SAG01 > 8AS051 > G54332 > 9602 > Q > SG3 CFP1080E is a 1 gig drive, and probably assembled in 96/02 Nico From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 28 00:53:30 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:53:30 -0600 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <000801c60b79$8fcec940$2101a8c0@finans> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net><20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net><43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252><80e52ddd4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200512280622.BAA01941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <000801c60b79$8fcec940$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <43B2366A.7090907@oldskool.org> Nico de Jong wrote: > CFP1080E is a 1 gig drive, and probably assembled in 96/02 I show 1995: http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/scsi/1080s_r3.pdf -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Dec 28 01:09:37 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:09:37 -0700 Subject: other Utah collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B23A31.7080901@Rikers.org> Richard wrote: > Hey, any other Utah collectors on this list? I've just moved to South Jordan. I've got a collection of HP minis. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cc at corti-net.de Wed Dec 28 03:21:22 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:21:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: looking for Plessey board Doc's In-Reply-To: <10512271024.ZM8104@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <43B03293.3040205@worldnet.att.net> <10512271024.ZM8104@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> - 701840 may be a tape controller 701840 Unibus DC11A RK05 Disk Controller >> - 703360 This is a Memory board 703360 Unibus S11L Parity Memory > I think you mean Kevin Murrell's web page at PS8 Computing, > http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP11/plessey.htm. Sadly, it's gone. > And I didn't keep a copy :-( I might have an email address for Kevin, > so I'll see if I can find anything. http://web.archive.org/web/20041018212144/http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP11/plessey.htm Christian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Dec 28 04:19:14 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:19:14 GMT Subject: looking for Plessey board Doc's In-Reply-To: Christian Corti "Re: looking for Plessey board Doc's" (Dec 28, 10:21) References: <43B03293.3040205@worldnet.att.net> <10512271024.ZM8104@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <10512281019.ZM10646@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 28 2005, 10:21, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 27 Dec 2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I think you mean Kevin Murrell's web page at PS8 Computing, > > http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP11/plessey.htm. Sadly, it's gone. > > And I didn't keep a copy :-( > http://web.archive.org/.......... Of course. I should have thought of that. Thank you! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 28 07:14:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:14:11 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <200512050727.XAA03214@floodgap.com> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051228081411.1fc8c094.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:09:07 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > > vacuum' out of your CRT. > > Geez -- so is that the board I see at the top of the tube in this picture: > > http://modeltrain.com/mac/se30/6.jpg > > I bump that board and the tube will implode? There is a better chance of that happening than is acceptable. There is a long thin glass nipple that pokes through the socket connector in the center of that board. A minor bend of the board is enough to snap off said glass nipple. I have opened my compact Macs often enough without it happening, but that's because I am very aware of the problem, having broken the first Mac Plus I opened years ago. I was able to swap out the CRT on that one, it was in the era when spare CRTs were pretty common for $10. They're NOT as common any longer. Best practice is to unplug the board immediately after opening the case (and then stay clear of the glass nipple, which protrudes out). It is NOT one of Apple's best designs. But they were deliberately keeping the layman out of that generation of Mac. (Steve Jobs was rather snide about the 'hacker proof' nature of the original Mac in a radio address I heard him give back at the launch of the Mac- it put me off Apple hardware for a long time) Apparently the priesthood 'allowed inside the case' were properly warned. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 27 08:47:04 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 06:47:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <43AF1D04.40006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051227144704.32143.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I don't know I'm tempted. I'm from LI originally, my brother even went to BOCES for a while in the card punching days (don't think that location though). I have an old Chevy 1/2 ton van. Would that take it all? How heavy is the heavyiest item? --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Did anyone notice this one? Might be a good deal > for someone living nearby > > with some friends to help out with heavy lifting. > > > > Item: 5845564149 > > > > Looks like a lot of stuff. > > Unfortunately, it isn't really multiprocessor. It's > a single processor > 62.5 MHz POWER. > > Just about the only things that make it worth taking > are the P77 monitor > and the UPSes. > > Peace... Sridhar > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Dec 27 10:37:18 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 10:37:18 -0600 Subject: HP-85B Thermal Paper 82954A 2 rolls sealed 4.25 x 400' In-Reply-To: <200512011121380045.008023ED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001e01c60b03$cdbe5c50$0300a8c0@Gils6240> EBay 8742948421 Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From erik at baigar.de Tue Dec 27 11:13:35 2005 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:13:35 +0100 (MET) Subject: HP logic analysers - IAs and utils? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Philip! > I know a few folks here own HP 1600-series logic analysers, so I hope this I am using 1661a for reverse-engineering a small core memory based computer. I am very happy with it > I've just hacked together a little symbol loader for the 1651B. All it does > is read a text file full of "LABEL = $F00D" format lines, then loads them all > into the 1651B's symbol table. Very handy when debugging microprocessor > systems with one of these analysers (especially when you've got an inverse > assembler for the target CPU). What kind of interface do you use? Wrote something similar for my 1661a based upon Solaris and gpib. > In addition to that, I've also thrown together a 6502 inverse assembler for > the 1651B (though it *should* work on the other 1650 and 16500 series > machines too). It understands all the Western Design Center 65C02S "extra" > instructions, and should (in theory at least) work with raw 6502 and Rockwell > 65C02 code as well. That sounds interesting! Does it mean, the analyzer does the operations? I know, that such software was available for these analyzers and I'd be interested in this stuff. Can the code be modified (e.g. is it possible to implement an other CPU?)? > copy of the 1650B Programmer's Manual and threw together a Windows-based > (although it could be ported to Linux console-mode easily enough) tool to > replace IALDOWN. Depends on what communication library you used... Best reagrds, Erik. From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 09:00:09 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 08:00:09 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <004101c60b6a$92d06e50$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <004101c60b6a$92d06e50$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: And to "Lord British" himself, Richard Garriott, no less. - Mike On 12/27/05, Michael Holley wrote: > The Apple 1 went on eBay for $2550. Bryan, this should impress your wife. > > Michael Holley > > > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:40:20 -0700 > > From: "Bryan K. Blackburn" > > Subject: Apple 1 on eBay - shameless self promotion > > > > I interrupt this list with a short commercial message... > > > > I just listed a working Apple 1 Computer on eBay, item #8739750233 at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8739750233 > > > > This is a faithful recreation, nearly an exact replica, not an original. > > Really cool, just the same. > > > > -Bryan > > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 28 11:04:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:04:49 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512281204.49217.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 28 December 2005 00:09, Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > > vacuum' out of your CRT. > > Geez -- so is that the board I see at the top of the tube in this > picture: > > http://modeltrain.com/mac/se30/6.jpg > > I bump that board and the tube will implode? If by 'implode', you mean that you'll break the tip off the tube, and it'll fill up with air, in a rather anti-climatic and uneventful fashion, yes. I really doubt you could implode the CRT by accidentally hitting that board, unless you were using a sledge hammer or something... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 28 11:18:33 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:18:33 -0500 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay References: <20051227144704.32143.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03f901c60bd2$bbeac200$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I have an old Chevy 1/2 ton van. Would that take it all? > How heavy is the heav/iest item? I asked the seller and he gave a no clue. My estimate is the largest rack is maybe 5' x 3+' x 2' and 500 lb or less. Not a two man lift, but a two man move, via dollies and careful tipping. I could be there to help and pay in exchange for basically a decent choice of item or items from the lot. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Dec 28 11:23:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:23:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay In-Reply-To: <03f901c60bd2$bbeac200$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > I asked the seller and he gave a no clue. > My estimate is the largest rack is maybe > 5' x 3+' x 2' and 500 lb or less. Not a two man > lift, but a two man move, via dollies and careful > tipping. I could be there to help and pay in exchange for > basically a decent choice of item or items from the lot. I would think the rack is more than 500 pounds. Those 9309 boxes are very heavy empty. Willia Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Dec 28 11:29:50 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:29:50 +0000 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43B21375.9090301@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> <43B2068D.7050400@jcwren.com> <43B21375.9090301@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43B2CB8E.2080502@gjcp.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Well, I ran into a very unexpected glitch. ACE Hardware sold me a > not-just-used-but-smoked outlet. In a new, sealed box. I'm not quite smoked outlet? wtf? Am I right in guessing you mean a mains socket, and if so, how do you actually manage to break one? Gordon. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 11:49:50 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:49:50 -0700 Subject: other Utah collectors? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:09:37 -0700. <43B23A31.7080901@Rikers.org> Message-ID: In article <43B23A31.7080901 at Rikers.org>, Tim Riker writes: > Richard wrote: > > Hey, any other Utah collectors on this list? > > I've just moved to South Jordan. I've got a collection of HP minis. > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware Nice! I wrote my very first programs on an HP3000 running whatever it ran in 1978-1979 :-). They had a series of 25 BASIC programs that taught you basic -- TUT01 through TUT25 and I ran them all and taught myself to program that way! Does this sound like something that is on your minis? I'd love to see it again. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 11:56:43 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:56:43 -0700 Subject: other Utah collectors? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:49:50 -0700. Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, Tim. Where is "Sellam's Warehouse"? ;-) That place looks like a collector's wet dream :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ken at seefried.com Mon Dec 19 16:20:46 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:20:46 -0500 Subject: CUBIX/6809 updates In-Reply-To: <200512132219.jBDMIlvM029402@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512132219.jBDMIlvM029402@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43A7323E.8050601@seefried.com> From: dave04a at dunfield.com > I have a 6809 based STD card - not from Fujitsu... IIRC something beginning > with 'D' - if anyone is interested, I'll dig it out and get the name. I have a 6809 STD-Bus card as well; it's also packed up right now. I've also got an mc68010 card running, and have seen several mc68000 and at least one 68020 cards. It's reall not difficult to interface to STD-Bus...nothing more complicated than some TTL and a PAL or two. Ken From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 28 12:51:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:51:34 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512281204.49217.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> <200512281204.49217.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20051228135134.5b130e35.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 12:04:49 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 28 December 2005 00:09, Jim Leonard wrote: > > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > It's VERY important to be careful inside the Mac once the cover is > > > off. It's extremely easy to snap the glass nipple on the CRT and > > > ruin it. Apple in their infinite wisdom put a circuit board on > > > the back of the neck to act as a 'torque amplifier' for this > > > purpose. Just bumping the board wrong can let all the 'magic > > > vacuum' out of your CRT. > > > > Geez -- so is that the board I see at the top of the tube in this > > picture: > > > > http://modeltrain.com/mac/se30/6.jpg > > > > I bump that board and the tube will implode? > > If by 'implode', you mean that you'll break the tip off the tube, and > it'll fill up with air, in a rather anti-climatic and uneventful > fashion, yes. > > I really doubt you could implode the CRT by accidentally hitting that > board, unless you were using a sledge hammer or something... > > Pat I imploded a defective iMac CRT about a month ago. I put it in a heavy duty contractor bag first, then hammered the face through the bag. It imploded, alright. The glass was reduced to little bits, like automobile safety glass. > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Dec 28 09:07:36 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:07:36 +0000 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20051228191420.GNMT9047.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I understand the principle of using a light as a current limiter, but > I have one question - say I start with a 7.5W bulb, how long should I > run the PSU at that level, and should I then step up through 20W, 40W, > etc? If so, I have bulbs up to 200W; where should I stop? Part 1 answer: You should stop when the line voltage to the equipment reaches a normal value - with an unloaded linear PS, this should be LONG before you get to a 200w bulb. You should perform the procedure with the power-supply under no load. (ie: remove all the cards). If it is truly under no load, then you won't need to move "up" in lamp sizes, because as the caps charge, the current drawn by the supply will fall off toward zero, and the voltage dropped across the lamp will drop toward zero. As the current drops, the lamp filiment will cool causing it's resistance to drop as well. If there is no load at all, then the line voltage to the system would reach "normal" even with a low wattage lamp in series. In practice this may not happen with a really low wattage bulb due to some fixed current draw by such things as the chassis fans and a bleed resistor on the supply (if present) - You can disconnect these things and still bring up up to normal voltage through a low-wattage bulb. I prefer to do this, because if a component fails (like a cap shorting), the lower wattage bulb you have in series, the lower the current that will flow in the "short" circuit - I like to let long out of service linear power supplies "idle" thought a 25 or 40w bulb for a while before I go to higher power/load tests. Part 2 answer. Assuming you have the power supply under no load, even with a small bulb, the input voltage will climb toward line level rather quickly. It is best to reform caps at a slower rate. Best thing to use is a variac, so you can actually control the voltage being applied to the caps, and bring it up in steps, allowing the caps to form for a good long time at each step. If you don't have a variac, you can fairly easily divide line voltage down to 1/3 and later 1/2 by using 3 and then 2 same wattage bubs in series, and connecting the equipment across the bulb closest to the neutral side of the line - again is is assuming that the equipment will eventually charge to virtually no power draw allowing the line voltage to drop evenly across the bulbs. Note that using different wattage bulbs to control the division does not usually work as well as you would like, as the higher watt bulb will stay "cold", dropping most of the voltage across the lower watt bulb. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 28 13:15:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:15:13 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20051228135134.5b130e35.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> <200512281204.49217.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051228135134.5b130e35.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512281115130201.0FE12849@10.0.0.252> On 12/28/2005 at 1:51 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >> I really doubt you could implode the CRT by accidentally hitting that >> board, unless you were using a sledge hammer or something... I've disposed of many CRTs by snapping off the tip of the evacuation stem. Admitting atmosphere through the stem actually reduces stresses on the tube as internal pressure equalizes with the atmosphere over the few seconds that the process takes. The big issue with destroying CRTs is making sure that they're kept out of the landfill. The frit seal material used to attach the face of the tube to the funnel section contains quite a bit of lead. CRT's are safer to transport and handle if the vacuum is removed from the tube before disposal. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 28 13:21:42 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:21:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: GRiD 386 free to good home (must be claimed by tomorrow) Message-ID: <200512281921.LAA09816@floodgap.com> I am in urgent need to reclaim some space and as part of this, I'm getting rid of my 386 GRiD laptop. It was flaky, but working last time I tested it. Includes battery, external floppy, and whatever else I can throw in. Free to a good home. Pickup in Inland Empire, So Cal preferred. I will ship, but this is heavy as hell and you can expect to pay about $30 to get it there by UPS. Let me know. This needs to be claimed by tomorrow! -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Dec 28 13:27:30 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 11:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: GRiD 386 free to good home (must be claimed by tomorrow) In-Reply-To: <200512281921.LAA09816@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20051228192730.18715.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Cameron, I'm in "The OC" (Santa Ana area), are you coming this way soon? I won't have a day off until Sunday. Steve. --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I am in urgent need to reclaim some space and as > part of this, I'm getting > rid of my 386 GRiD laptop. It was flaky, but working > last time I tested it. > Includes battery, external floppy, and whatever else > I can throw in. > > Free to a good home. Pickup in Inland Empire, So Cal > preferred. I will > ship, but this is heavy as hell and you can expect > to pay about $30 to get > it there by UPS. Let me know. This needs to be > claimed by tomorrow! > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * > www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. > -- Kehlog Albran ----------- > __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 28 13:40:46 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:40:46 -0600 Subject: Cap reformation question In-Reply-To: <43B2CB8E.2080502@gjcp.net> References: <0IR4005JWNAQJEQ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <43B1E6C4.6030007@mdrconsult.com> <43B2068D.7050400@jcwren.com> <43B21375.9090301@mdrconsult.com> <43B2CB8E.2080502@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43B2EA3E.7090609@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Well, I ran into a very unexpected glitch. ACE Hardware sold me a >> not-just-used-but-smoked outlet. In a new, sealed box. I'm not quite > > > smoked outlet? wtf? Am I right in guessing you mean a mains socket, > and if so, how do you actually manage to break one? Yes, a mains socket. One of the wire clamp screws was burned nearly to a stump. Doc From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Dec 28 13:49:03 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:49:03 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200512281115130201.0FE12849@10.0.0.252> References: <4393E4C8.7090103@oldskool.org> <20051205175133.14888dbb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B21DF3.20704@oldskool.org> <200512281204.49217.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20051228135134.5b130e35.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512281115130201.0FE12849@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051228194903.AEFAABA47F2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > CRT's are safer to > transport and handle if the vacuum is removed from the tube before > disposal. Strangely enough, letting the vacuum out actually makes the tube heavier. And, as a corollary, a box full of ones weighs less than a box full of zeroes. Proof: weigh a box of unpunched cards, then punch and weigh again. Tim. From allain at panix.com Wed Dec 28 14:38:19 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:38:19 -0500 Subject: IBM RS6000 on ePay References: Message-ID: <093e01c60bee$b046f4c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> My estimate is the largest rack is maybe >> 5' x 3+' x 2' and 500 lb or less. >> Not a two man lift, but a two man move, > I would think the rack is more than 500 pounds. > Those 9309 boxes are very heavy empty. OK, so are you coming too? ;} John A. From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 28 15:34:09 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:34:09 -0500 Subject: TI DS990 Message-ID: <200512282134.jBSLY9lZ025477@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Had a message today from a local forge disposing of a TI DS990. I've not talked directly to him yet, or seen the hardware. I've never been exposed to these machines, so know little about them. I've been googling and searching archives to see if I could figure out values, etc. This is not something I'd take for my collection, but would be happy to store temporarily for someone else. Info that might be useful for a first contact or survey appreciated. De From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 28 15:45:31 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:45:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: other Utah collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051228134415.J51020@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: > Just out of curiosity, Tim. Where is "Sellam's Warehouse"? ;-) > That place looks like a collector's wet dream :-). SF bay area. But there are rumors that it extends to occupy most of hyperspace. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 15:51:28 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:51:28 -0700 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:45:31 -0800. <20051228134415.J51020@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20051228134415.J51020 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, Tim. Where is "Sellam's Warehouse"? ;-) > > That place looks like a collector's wet dream :-). > > SF bay area. OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / spare bedroom / basement / garage? Do you downsize the collection to fit? Do you rent warehouse space? Do any of you have physical museums that you've constructed with public exhibits (besides the CHM, of course)? I have talked with another local collector about finding a suitable location for storage/display of our collections. He was interested in buying a place, I am toying with the idea of building something to house my (growing) collection before it outgrows my basement. I'm getting to that point dangerously soon, I'm afraid as I've recently acquired some rather large items (vaxserver, 4 lilith workstations, PDP-11/03, etc.) and the era of equipment I'm shooting for entails more "large heavy power hungry items" of the 80s workstation era. If you built your own space, what did you do for power and HVAC needs? I'm in Salt Lake City, so I have to be concerned with both heating and cooling. I'm tossing around the idea of buying an empty lot and building an "earth ship" on it to house a museum/collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 15:53:44 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:53:44 -0700 Subject: TI DS990 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:34:09 -0500. <200512282134.jBSLY9lZ025477@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200512282134.jBSLY9lZ025477 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > Had a message today from a local forge disposing of a TI DS990. > I've not talked directly to him yet, or seen the hardware. It would be interesting to know if its the 990/1 with the builtin console or one of the later models as described on old-computers.com: > This is not something I'd take for my collection, but would be happy > to store temporarily for someone else. What's your location? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 28 16:00:56 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:00:56 -0500 Subject: TI DS990 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512281700.56814.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 28 December 2005 16:53, Richard wrote: > In article <200512282134.jBSLY9lZ025477 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > >... > What's your location? Take a look at his email address... I'd guess that he's somewhere near Detroit, MI. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 28 16:05:27 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:05:27 -0500 Subject: TI DS990 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:53:44 MST.) References: Message-ID: <200512282205.jBSM5Rl0026245@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Had a message today from a local forge disposing of a TI DS990. > > I've not talked directly to him yet, or seen the hardware. > > What's your location? Sorry, meant to include that the first time. The machine and I are both in the Lansing, MI area. De From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 28 16:11:44 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:11:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 28, 2005 02:51:28 PM Message-ID: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> > OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... > > What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / > spare bedroom / basement / garage? > > Do you downsize the collection to fit? > > Do you rent warehouse space? Storage Units. At one point I had two 10x10 storage units for computers, but over the past five years I've gotten rid of a bunch of *junk*, given some stuff away, and sold other items. > Do any of you have physical museums that you've constructed with > public exhibits (besides the CHM, of course)? In the near future (1-3 years) I'm hoping to see a sizable portion of my collection go to a History Library that is being started in the area. It helps that I know the person building it, and have convinced them that computer history is a worthwhile addition. From the sounds of things this will be both documentation and systems, but then the bulk of my collection seems to be doc's. Zane From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 28 16:14:57 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:14:57 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B30E61.4000004@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / > spare bedroom / basement / garage? That completely depends on the collection and the perserverence of the collector. I am a relatively informal collector; I have mostly 8-bit and 16-bit personal computers, about 30-35 units, a few in use/on display and most others in my basement crawlspace which is cool and dry. The PDP-11 and other DECies here have collections that take up every spare ounce of space in the home, with some more in the shed out back. And then there's Sellam, who has two large warehouses full of items and makes his living renting/selling software and hardware to collectors and lawyers (for legal dispute resolution). > Do you downsize the collection to fit? Depends on the situation. I'm completely full, so when I grab a new unit I take stock of my collection and donate or *gasp* junk a unit to make room for it. ebay, boxing and shipping things are very difficult for me due to working full time and having a young family (I don't have the time) so I am always at the same relative number of units. (Before I get yelled at for junking things, I usually part them out or make sure they're completely worthless, like a 486/66 or Pentium Pro 200, I have 3-4 of both of those. I'm not throwing away perfectly good 5150 Rev A/B motherboards, for example ;-) > I have talked with another local collector about finding a suitable > location for storage/display of our collections. The "display" part intrigues me. I've always wanted to put out a system for my kids to learn about, like a C64 or PCjr or Apple or classic Mac... but then I think of them getting their hands all over everything and I retract the idea. :-) I would imagine many other collectors have a "look but don't touch" mindset... maybe I'm just being paranoid. I've gotten past that fear by making sure I have duplicates of everything. Two Tandy 1000s, two Mac 512s, a metric assload of PCjrs (I'm a big softie, what can I say), two C64s, etc., etc. That way I don't have a problem wih the kids shattering keys as they bang on Microsoft Decathlon, as I'll have a backup. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 28 16:19:11 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:19:11 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <20051228134415.J51020 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > >>On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: >> >>>Just out of curiosity, Tim. Where is "Sellam's Warehouse"? ;-) >>>That place looks like a collector's wet dream :-). >> >>SF bay area. > > > OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... > > What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / > spare bedroom / basement / garage? > > Do you downsize the collection to fit? > > Do you rent warehouse space? > > Do any of you have physical museums that you've constructed with > public exhibits (besides the CHM, of course)? > > I have talked with another local collector about finding a suitable > location for storage/display of our collections. He was interested in > buying a place, I am toying with the idea of building something to > house my (growing) collection before it outgrows my basement. I'm > getting to that point dangerously soon, I'm afraid as I've recently > acquired some rather large items (vaxserver, 4 lilith workstations, > PDP-11/03, etc.) and the era of equipment I'm shooting for entails > more "large heavy power hungry items" of the 80s workstation era. > > If you built your own space, what did you do for power and HVAC needs? > > I'm in Salt Lake City, so I have to be concerned with both heating and > cooling. I'm tossing around the idea of buying an empty lot and > building an "earth ship" on it to house a museum/collection. I collect mainframes. At least one piece of my collection is in every last room of the house. I am contemplating adding outbuildings. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 16:26:08 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:26:08 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:14:57 -0600. <43B30E61.4000004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43B30E61.4000004 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > > I have talked with another local collector about finding a suitable > > location for storage/display of our collections. > > The "display" part intrigues me. I've always wanted to put out a system > for my kids to learn about, like a C64 or PCjr or Apple or classic > Mac... but then I think of them getting their hands all over everything > and I retract the idea. :-) I would imagine many other collectors have a > "look but don't touch" mindset... maybe I'm just being paranoid. [Note to Jim: adopt a shorter line length for easier > quoting :-] I think for things like C=64s which are nearly ubiquitous, it doesn't hurt to have kids pounding on the keys. Things like DECwriter printing terminals seem near indestructible. Once while transporting them from high schools, which rented them for the academic year from us, we dropped one down a flight of stairs. Aside from scratches on the plastic housing, the thing was just fine. For PDP-11s and other minicomputer systems, having a terminal, or even a terminal program on a modern PC can get, you the same experience. After all, my entire time spent using a PDP-11/70 was from a terminal across town from the actual PDP. The main unit was housed in an access controlled machine room to which we didn't have access. > I've gotten past that fear by making sure I have duplicates of everything. >From what I've read about collecting, this is important if you intend to keep things working. You'll need at least one spare unit for parts, possibly more. I think a conservative estimate on older equipment I read somewhere was to keep up to 3 units as spares, depending on the rarity of the item and what tends to break. There are lots of small museums around the country where its basically a "look and see" experience -- you get to look at the collections of 19th century hand tools but you don't get to take the planer out and try it on a 2x4. I suspect small computing history museums are no different, but its not very exciting to look at a shrink-wrapped copy of Word 1.0 in a case (albeit actually using Word 1.0 probably isn't exciting either). My friend has a large collection of arcade game machines. These machines have already been through a fairly rough life in bars :-), so there isn't much that kids can do to them while playing the games. However, recently he has been making noises about selling his collection off wholesale, so I don't know what's to become of that. My plan is to amass a collection that focuses on the area of computer graphics and elements originating in Utah (hardware and software) and eventually create some sort of public display space. How long it will take for that to occur is unknown to me at this point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Dec 28 16:30:54 2005 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:30:54 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> References: <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B3121E.6040109@brutman.com> The wife thinks that we moved from our older 1800 sq foot house with 120 amp service to the newer 4500 sq foot house with 200 amp service because our family had outgrown the last house. When she was talking about family, she was referring to the children. I thought she meant the computers .. I'm going to get a proper basement computer lab someday. (I'll have to wire it and construct it myself.) In the house appeals to me because it will be climate controlled. I hated having my household possessions in a storage unit even temporarily, because there was no opportunity to climite control it at all. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 16:29:57 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:29:57 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:19:11 -0500. <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43B30F5F.6070500 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I collect mainframes. At least one piece of my collection is in every > last room of the house. I am contemplating adding outbuildings. I've seen people housing their collections in glorified yard sheds like the ones on this web site: . These were collectors of microcomputers who could easily fit a large number of systems into a single room with adequate shelving and regular 120 V power. If you added an outbuilding, could you afford traditional construction and associated HVAC to have things actually powered on, or were you just considering the space for storage? Did you have to get special power run to your house to turn things on? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 28 16:34:44 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:34:44 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B31304.3030607@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > In article <43B30E61.4000004 at oldskool.org>, > [Note to Jim: adopt a shorter line length for easier > quoting :-] I have Thunderbird set to wrap outgoing at 79 characters... what would you suggest? :-) WAIT -- never mind -- I see your point. It is now 76 :-) >>I've gotten past that fear by making sure I have duplicates of everything. > > From what I've read about collecting, this is important if you intend > to keep things working. You'll need at least one spare unit for > parts, possibly more. I think a conservative estimate on older > equipment I read somewhere was to keep up to 3 units as spares, > depending on the rarity of the item and what tends to break. ...unless you like PCjrs, as I do, in which case you collect 5 or 6 as they're somewhat flimsy machines (for example, what is supposed to pass for case and shielding is plastic lightly coated with what looks to be "spray-on metal" I believe IBM was awarded a patent for the process, but I don't know what the process is.) > I suspect small computing history museums are no > different, but its not very exciting to look at a shrink-wrapped copy > of Word 1.0 in a case (albeit actually using Word 1.0 probably isn't > exciting either). All of my nostalgia and history involving computers has come from experiencing them, not looking at them. So that's why I'm a firm advocate of "hands-on" computing museums. I'm enough of a purist that I only use emulators that properly emulate both scanlines *and* disk-drive noises (and in the case of arcade emulators, the only one I've ever loved was Vector Dream as it emulated screen burn-in, 60Hz hum, the sound of the coin hitting the bucket, etc.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 16:48:55 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:48:55 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:34:44 -0600. <43B31304.3030607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43B31304.3030607 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > All of my nostalgia and history involving computers has come from experiencin g > them, not looking at them. So that's why I'm a firm advocate of "hands-on" > computing museums. I agree, I just never had "hands on" experience with things like punch cards, paper tape. I had a little bit of experience with 9-track tape. I think having "hands on" experiences in a museum is important to keep people interested. However, I note that most museums do not have any hands-on component. The best hands-on museum I've ever seen is the Exploratorium, which is 100% hands-on. I think that there are things you can do in this vein that allow people (kids particularly) to explore the elements of digital computing without sacrificing collectible machines. When it comes to things like mainframes and largish minicomputers they often need a room where the computing is stored due to climate control and dirt reasons, while the actual "interaction" is done semi-remotely by terminal. Even for things like SGI graphics workstations, you can put the workstation in a computer room and the display/keyboard/mouse in another room (many older workstations are pretty damn noisy!). Then there are things like C=64s and VIC-20s which you can just "sacrifice" to the crowd knowing that you can always pick up another one for repairs. In that scenario I think the most fragile thing would be media, but if you replace the floppy drives with faked interfaces into IDE/PC storage behind the scenes, then that concern fades away as well. I think it would also be helpful to have machines that you can tinker with in the sens of taking out boards and seeing the chips and so-on. These would be machines that you have no intention of ever making functional (in fact, the boards could be dead boards housed in a typical card cage), purely there for the purpose of getting your hands on them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 28 12:59:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:59:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <43B2081A.5040808@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Dec 27, 5 10:35:54 pm Message-ID: > They look like they should be mylar coated or silvered Kapton discs > with a foam backing. The foam is mostly decayed, and there's virtually > no silvering left on any of the discs. They few that do have only the This sounds like a Keytronics capacitive keyboard. The disks are assembled silver-side up (away from the PCB), they don't actually make contact. But when you press a key, the conductive metal on the disk increases the capacitance between the 2 pads on the PCB. Failure of these assemblies is, alas, well known. There are 2 problems -- the first is that he foam decays, the second is that the metalisation goes. It looks like you've got both at once. At one time you could buy replacement disk/foam assemblies and they were quite cheap. Then the price skyrocketed, then they became, I believe, unavailable. Pity, as I need to re-do a PERQ keyboard sometime soon (same design). -tony From jrice54 at blackcube.org Wed Dec 28 17:03:19 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:03:19 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B319B7.7060801@blackcube.org> Richard wrote: >OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... > >What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / >spare bedroom / basement / garage? > >Do you downsize the collection to fit? > >Do you rent warehouse space? > > > > I'm building a bigger house. I'm having the third garage equipped with an independent airco/heating unit and a 100amp service to a sub panel for my collection. It will also give me a place to escape to when the estrogen level gets too high between my wife and three daughters. James From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 28 17:08:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:08:56 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> References: <43B30F5F.6070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I collect mainframes. At least one piece of my collection is in every > last room of the house. I am contemplating adding outbuildings. For you or the computers ... :D http://www.pdp-11.nl/ I like Henk's PDP-11 collection here : see 'the making of' An building may be limited in size if you live in a urban area. > Peace... Sridhar > > . > From charlesmorris at direcway.com Wed Dec 28 18:23:51 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:23:51 -0600 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? Message-ID: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive (around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, 25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. Semi-custom ones aren't terribly much more expensive (~ $15) but have longer lead times. Is there anything in the circuitry that can't be run a little slower (or 1.2% faster, 27 MHz)? I'm not worried about squeezing every last MIPS out of it. thanks Charles From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 18:26:13 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:26:13 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:08:56 -0700. <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <43B31B08.7090308 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > http://www.pdp-11.nl/ I like Henk's PDP-11 collection here : see 'the > making of' > An building may be limited in size if you live in a urban area. Yikes! Brick walls?!? My lot is fairly large (0.23 acres) and I have a huge area in the back of the lot that is essentially "unused", where I could build something. But for a public museum I'd rather not have it in the back yard of my house, so I am considering purchasing some undeveloped land in a cheaper part of the city. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Dec 28 18:35:08 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:35:08 -0500 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> References: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43B32F3C.9050707@jcwren.com> You can order oscillators programmed with custom frequencies from DigiKey, assuming you're speaking of oscillators and not a crystal (I have someone at work who routinely interchanges the terms, and it drives me up the wall). They may not be in metal cans, but they are available in the same foot print. DigiKey can have them to you as fast as you want to pay for shipping. --jc Charles wrote: >After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to >talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz >crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). > >Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive >(around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, >25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. Semi-custom ones aren't >terribly much more expensive (~ $15) but have longer lead times. > >Is there anything in the circuitry that can't be run a little >slower (or 1.2% faster, 27 MHz)? I'm not worried about squeezing >every last MIPS out of it. > >thanks >Charles > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 28 18:59:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 16:59:37 -0800 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> The following site seems to think that you can use junker Sun 4 keyboards for parts: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/keyboard.html --Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Dec 28 19:09:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:09:01 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:26:13 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <43B31B08.7090308 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > woodelf writes: > > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/ I like Henk's PDP-11 collection here : see 'the > > making of' > > An building may be limited in size if you live in a urban area. > > Yikes! Brick walls?!? > > My lot is fairly large (0.23 acres) and I have a huge area in the back > of the lot that is essentially "unused", where I could build > something. But for a public museum I'd rather not have it in the back > yard of my house, so I am considering purchasing some undeveloped land > in a cheaper part of the city. I am a collector, and consider myself somewhat of a conservator, but I don't personally have interest in maintaining a museum. Right now my storage system borders on being a disaster, in part because of a lack of organization and optimization of space. I have 3-4 spare acres here, though, and long term plans include putting down a cement slab out there and then a pole building. Insulation and heat eventually, so it can be a place to operate instead of just for storage. At present the second bedroom is completely crammed, my 'main labspace' room is so congested that I can't even get to the electronics bench..., I have to be very careful what I leave in the garage (unheated, somewhat unsealed against the elements) I am at the point where it's time to post giveaways and real-cheap-sale items on eBay just to get rid of some of the excess, which isn't necessarily museum-grade stuff, but then... I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I have some things much older, and quite a bit of newer stuff that I like having, too. Usually things that don't get mentioned here because that isn't the focus of this list, but it belongs at least in this post. I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. All those wonderful 8255, 6821 and Z80 peripheral chips, all the SRAM parts I have, etc. I'm now in the process of dipping my feet in the GnuEDA package, because I need a decent robust schematic capture program that isn't either an illegal 'evaluation' copy or a four figure investment. In it's recent incarnation built on NetBSD/i386 I am so far very impressed with Gschem. (I *like* the fact that I have the complete source for the entire setup. Schematics I create are mine forever, etc. etc.) Housing my collection? It's a *disaster* but my wife puts up with it. She isn't even complaing loudly yet that I haven't moved the bandsaw she gave me for Christmas (she works at Menards) out of the living room yet. From AK6DN at mindspring.com Wed Dec 28 19:38:26 2005 From: AK6DN at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 17:38:26 -0800 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <43B32F3C.9050707@jcwren.com> References: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> <43B32F3C.9050707@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <84868885-1411-48F7-A011-293482D6E777@mindspring.com> I've used the Digiikey service to get a custom frequency (20.2752MHz, 4x the 5.0688MHz clock frequency of a DL11-W). A little pricey (~$8 each), but worked just as expected. For your application though anything in the 25-27MHz should work just fine. If you are really adventurous put in a socket and get a few frequencies up to 33MHz or so and see how fast you can really go. Clock chipping an oscillator based PDP-11 is a lot more straightforward than an older tapped delay line design like a 34, 44, etc. On Dec 28, 2005, at 4:35 PM, J.C. Wren wrote: > You can order oscillators programmed with custom frequencies > from DigiKey, assuming you're speaking of oscillators and not a > crystal (I have someone at work who routinely interchanges the > terms, and it drives me up the wall). They may not be in metal > cans, but they are available in the same foot print. DigiKey can > have them to you as fast as you want to pay for shipping. > > --jc > > Charles wrote: > >> After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to >> talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz >> crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). >> >> Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive >> (around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, >> 25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. Semi-custom ones aren't >> terribly much more expensive (~ $15) but have longer lead times. >> >> Is there anything in the circuitry that can't be run a little >> slower (or 1.2% faster, 27 MHz)? I'm not worried about squeezing >> every last MIPS out of it. >> >> thanks >> Charles >> >> From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Dec 28 20:04:13 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:04:13 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> References: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B3441D.3000205@jcwren.com> Yea, been there. I actually managed to order the pads and a couple switch assemblies from Mike Stephens at Mil-Key. He's not a happy camper. Apparently he's had a number of requests from SOL owners looking for pads. He was saying the big problem is the people calling him don't want to spend any money, and it was costing him to deal with them/us. At one time Keytronics was selling pads for $0.10. I don't know what others were paying from Mike, but I bought 260 pads at $0.35, plus 10 keyswitch assemblies at $2/ea. He wasn't willing to sell me the pads until I told him the quantity I was willing to take. According to him, the pads aren't made anymore. I imagine he has quite a few thousand in stock, though, since they're still making or repairing keyboards that use these pads. I found this article, that mentions him. He's a 20 year veteran of Keytronic. From the way he was talking, and his tone of voice, I think this may have been his final sale of pads, or at least at the price I paid. Oh, and I checked eBay for Sun Type 4 keyboards, and found two hits, both way more than I was willing to pay for 10 year old keyboards in unknown shape. Maybe someone else has an "in" to type 4 keyboards. If they were cheap, I'd buy a dozen, just to stash them for the benefit of other SOLsters. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >The following site seems to think that you can use junker Sun 4 keyboards >for parts: > >http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/keyboard.html > >--Chuck > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 28 20:29:02 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:29:02 -0800 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <43B3441D.3000205@jcwren.com> References: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> <43B3441D.3000205@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200512281829020211.116E51A2@10.0.0.252> What bothers me about the aspect of replacing those little foam pads is that unless you're a stickler for authenticity, it's a pretty safe bet that they're going to need replacing again, particularly if you live in an urban area with high ambient ozone levels. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Dec 28 20:41:42 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:41:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <43B2081A.5040808@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20051229024142.52067.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "J.C. Wren" wrote: > The SOL-20 has powered up, but the keyboard is > sorta FUBARed. The > LEDs work, but none of the keys do. I pulled the > keyboard, and shorted > a couple row & column drivers, and the keystrobe > strobed. I ended up > removing the PCB from the key assembly, and > determined that pads inside > the keys are shot to hell. > > They look like they should be mylar coated or > silvered Kapton discs > with a foam backing. The foam is mostly decayed, > and there's virtually > no silvering left on any of the discs. They few > that do have only the > slightest fragments. I assume this is supposed to > be conductive, > because pressing a disc against the PCB pads doesn't > trigger a key, > while touching the PCB with my finger does. > > Can these be rebuilt, or are replacement > switches available? JC, please see my web page on the subject: http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/keyboard.html From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 28 22:17:10 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:17:10 -0800 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 14:11 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... > > > > What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / > > spare bedroom / basement / garage? > > > > Do you downsize the collection to fit? > > > > Do you rent warehouse space? When mine outgrew my garage + storage unit I moved into ~1400sqft of commercial space. It's very nice (although no a/c). I thought it would have enough space to house my collection + space to work + all the other stuff. I've since expanded into 2 10x25 storage units also to house the overflow. There's enough space (and just as important enough 3-phase power) to be able to power up and run significant parts of my collection (at once)...unless I power up the KL10...then there's about enough for that, a couple of terminals and maybe the lights. :-) Having the space is nice since I can set up the machines so that I can actually use/work on them. Something I couldn't do (easily) before I moved. It's also a bit easier to bring people over and display the collection. -- TTFN - Guy From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 28 20:00:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:00:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cap reformation question Message-ID: <200512290200.SAA03630@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" ---snip--- > >You should perform the procedure with the power-supply under no load. >(ie: remove all the cards). If it is truly under no load, then you won't need >to move "up" in lamp sizes, because as the caps charge, the current drawn >by the supply will fall off toward zero, and the voltage dropped across the >lamp will drop toward zero. As the current drops, the lamp filiment will cool >causing it's resistance to drop as well. If there is no load at all, then the line >voltage to the system would reach "normal" even with a low wattage lamp in >series. Hi The lamp may still glow noticable because of the inductive current of the transformer. It is better to look at the voltage on the capacitor as an indicator. It is still better to disconnect the larger caps and reform from a DC supply and resistor. IMHO Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 28 22:44:07 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:44:07 -0500 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 11:17 PM Subject: Re: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) > On Wed, 2005-12-28 at 14:11 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > OK, this brings me to another question for you collectors out there... > > > > > > What do you do when your collection no longer fits in your office / > > > spare bedroom / basement / garage? > > > > > > Do you downsize the collection to fit? > > > > > > Do you rent warehouse space? > > When mine outgrew my garage + storage unit I moved into ~1400sqft of > commercial space. It's very nice (although no a/c). I thought it would > have enough space to house my collection + space to work + all the other > stuff. I've since expanded into 2 10x25 storage units also to house the > overflow. > > There's enough space (and just as important enough 3-phase power) to be > able to power up and run significant parts of my collection (at > once)...unless I power up the KL10...then there's about enough for that, > a couple of terminals and maybe the lights. :-) > > Having the space is nice since I can set up the machines so that I can > actually use/work on them. Something I couldn't do (easily) before I > moved. It's also a bit easier to bring people over and display the > collection. > > -- > > TTFN - Guy You guys sound like you spend a mint on just storing the collection. Out of curiosity what is the most expensive part of the hobby (acquiring, shipping, electricity, storage, upgrading&refurbishing, etc)? From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 28 23:17:47 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:17:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 22, 2005 12:35:23 AM Message-ID: <20051229051747.7C83673029@linus.area51.conman.org> It's taken me several days to mull on this and the inevitable progression of computers. Anyway, the subject line only comes up rather deep into this reply to Tony about his "I don't replace boards" stance: It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > 2. (might as well ask, as long as I'm asking) I know you dislike > > the whole "board swap" mentality and that you prefer replacing > > blown chips over replacing a whole board. But why not repair those > > non-functioning chips? I mean, one blown gate and you toss the > > I am not sure anyone can repair a chip. Are you suggesting I start moving > atoms around to correct the wrong doping levels, oxided metal traces, etc? The first computers were designed and built out of discreet components, which gave away to integrated circuits. Not only did it become cheaper to build computers, but easier as well, but I'm sure there were guys out there who ridiculed those that couldn't hack a computer with discreet compoments. "What? You have to replace an *entire* chip because a single transitor inside blew?" they might say. "How can you detect which chip is bad? With components, I can place probes *anywhere*, trace the fault down to the precise transistor and relatively quickly replace it. See?" But over time, the nature of a "component" changed yet again, this time to a larger unit---the card (or motherboard). The functional units are now larger. Whereas there are multiple companies that make a quad two-input NAND 7400, there are also multiple companies that produce (or rather, produced) two port serial cards for the PC. Sure, it's may be just as easy to replace a chip as a card, but then again, it should be easy to replace a blown gate, right? The 7400 chip is documented to work under certain conditions, with these inputs and output. Just as a two port serial card for the PC is documented to work with the ports at such-n-such address with so-n-so IRQ and what not (or else, not many people will buy the thing). Discreet components -> IC -> boards -> computers > > [2] Or in other words---the "components" in today's computers are bigger > > than yesterday's computers. Right now, the "components" are > > boards/cards and I can certainly see it being whole computers > > Maybe to you, but it's not happened here yet. "Here" being your house? Or England? Because it's certainly a reality here in the States, and I can name one company that does this as a standard operating proceedure---Google [1] (heck, even the company I work for does that to some degree). With 60,000 machines [2] it's probably more cost effective to let the machines die and work around them than to attempt to fix them (they probably do pull the dead machines, but only if there are enough to justify the expense of doing so). Even more amazing, Google is going further---not only does it consider a computer a mere component to be replaced, they're trying to make *data centers* a component! [3] A 40'x8'x8' data center, ready to be shipped anywhere in the world, the ultimate in plug-n-play. And thus we come to the subject line. In 10 years time (or heck, say 20) when Google starts to decomission some of these "data center containers" for pennies (maybe even mills [4]) on the dollar, what are we to make of such a system? It's about the size of the early computers, but with *way* more functionality and equipment. And its components are today's commodity PCs running a commodity operating system. Maybe we should start saving those Wintel boxes after all ... -spc (The technical specs on Google are very interesting ... ) [1] Ever since the early 90s I've felt that there were no more systems for a hacker (in the good, exploratory sense) to get into. TOPS-10, TOPS-20, ITS, heck, even VMS, were all dead or seriously on the decline, with the only multiuser systems left running Unix (how boring). It wasn't until last year I realized that there *is* a system that I would love to get into and play around with---Google. Sure, it's built on top of Linux, but only because it's easier that way. [2] http://www.tnl.net/blog/entry/How_many_Google_machines [3] http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20051117.html [4] 1/10 of a cent. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Dec 28 23:32:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:32:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <20051229051747.7C83673029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: > Even more amazing, Google is going further---not only does it consider a > computer a mere component to be replaced, they're trying to make *data > centers* a component! [3] A 40'x8'x8' data center, ready to be shipped > anywhere in the world, the ultimate in plug-n-play. Old AOL trick. Dialup POPs were extremely modular, and whole racks were assembled at USR and shipped all at once. The planners would figure out how many ports were needed at the POP, then send the appropriate number of racks. At the site, they were bolted down, plugged into power, plugged into the network, and BINGO - new modems. 99 percent of the engineering, assembly and testing was done on the factory floor. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 28 23:44:33 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:44:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: GRiD 386 free to good home (must be claimed by tomorrow) In-Reply-To: <20051228192730.18715.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from steven stengel at "Dec 28, 5 11:27:30 am" Message-ID: <200512290544.VAA08402@floodgap.com> The GRiD has been claimed. Thanks :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 28 23:59:46 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:59:46 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:09:01 -0500. <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > I have 3-4 spare acres here, though, and long term plans include > putting down a cement slab out there and then a pole building. That is what I considered adding to the back of my garage for housing my personal collection. It would be similar to the link that was posted, just that I wouldn't build it like a bomb shelter :-). I notice though that this was consistent with his neighbourhood in the Netherlands and it may be a local zoning style requirement that forced him to use brick, even if he already wanted to :-). I also think having a brother that's a stonemason is probably a big help! For a museum space, I considered an Earth Ship or some other form of alternative construction not only for the relative price (much more inexpensive than traditional construction), but also for the sheer novelty of the building. Having been to lots of little museums and stores across the country (thanks for the camping trips mom!), its always fun when they are housed in unique spaces. One alternative that is quite practical here in Utah is to simply excavate a space out of a standstone outcropping like Hole 'N The Rock . Doing this gives you a climate controlled environment for free! Rammed earth housing and passive annual heat storage give you some of the same advantages with above ground construction. > Insulation and heat eventually, so it can be a place to operate > instead of just for storage. [...] What does everyone think is an acceptable temperature range for storage? In Salt Lake my garage will get below freezing in winter and above 110 F in the summer. > I am at the point where it's time to post giveaways and > real-cheap-sale items on eBay just to get rid of some of the > excess, which isn't necessarily museum-grade stuff, but then... I Will you give us a chance before ebay? :-) I have mixed feelings about ebay. Its incredibly convenient for obscure items, but the bidding frenzy stuff and the "view at a distance" aspect sometimes irk me. > don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I > don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I collect what I find interesting. I tend to be nostalgic about the older stuff that I used, which is all 10+ years old at this point. > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? > All those wonderful > 8255, 6821 and Z80 peripheral chips, all the SRAM parts I have, > etc. I only recently heard about people specializing in collecting individual chips rather than whole systems. It makes perfect sense from a collecting perspective now that I've heard of it, but I'd never considered the idea myself. Do you purposefully look for specific chips? Are you satisfied in removing them from shipping systems or do you try to find "virgin" chips in their shipping tubes? > I'm now in the process of dipping my feet in the GnuEDA > package, [...] I recall reading in EE times about another freely available tool chain that was quite useful for small projects. I can dig up a reference if you'd like. I don't recall it being specifically named as "gnu" anything, so I think its a different toolchain from what you're describing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 00:02:51 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:02:51 -0700 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:17:10 -0800. <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1135829830.7886.17.camel at linux.site>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > When mine outgrew my garage + storage unit I moved into ~1400sqft of > commercial space. It's very nice (although no a/c). [...] It sounds sweet! Because of the lack of a/c do you mostly play with your collection in cooler months? ;-) Where are you located if you don't mind me asking? > There's enough space (and just as important enough 3-phase power) [...] Yeah, I was thinking that the larger machines need special power requirements. When you say "enough" 3-phase power, is it a limit on the amps you can draw through the circuit? For those of you that have larger machines, do you set them up in "machine room" configurations like the Netherlands PDP-11 room? Do any of you have your collection housed somewhere with a raised machine-room tile floor for routing cables underneath? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 28 20:32:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 18:32:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question Message-ID: <200512290232.SAA04286@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >The following site seems to think that you can use junker Sun 4 keyboards >for parts: > >http://www.thebattles.net/sol20/keyboard.html > >--Chuck > Hi Some types of foam don't last long. I wonder if one could make some with closed cell foam instead. It last much longer but is a little stiffer than the foam that they seem to be using. If it is a capacitive you should be able to make new capacitors with some aluminum foil and clear tape. Just my thoughts Dwight From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 29 00:13:37 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:13:37 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <43B37E91.5060403@oldskool.org> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > When mine outgrew my garage + storage unit I moved into ~1400sqft of > commercial space. It's very nice (although no a/c). I thought it would Just curious, how much per month does this space cost you? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 29 00:14:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:14:54 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> <001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <43B37EDE.8050602@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > curiosity what is the most expensive part of the hobby (acquiring, shipping, > electricity, storage, upgrading&refurbishing, etc)? For me, acquiring -- but not in terms you may be expecting. Acquiring costs little out-of-pocket capital, but it costs me a LOT of time to find what I'm looking for... and time is much more precious than money, of course. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 29 00:25:25 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:25:25 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B38155.4010506@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I > don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I have > some things much older, and quite a bit of newer stuff that I > like having, too. I'm with you. The "ten year rule" is crap -- there, I've said it. It's not even enforced anyway, since people here would have no problem talking about SGI Indigos or BeBoxen or DEC Alpha machines or similar stuff, and that's all newer than 10 years old, or just barely. I think the 10-year "rule", if there is to be one, should only apply to wintel boxes. I believe that's the spirit of the rule anyway. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 29 00:34:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:34:35 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B3837B.7040507@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > What does everyone think is an acceptable temperature range for > storage? In Salt Lake my garage will get below freezing in winter and > above 110 F in the summer. Obviously that's not an acceptable range ;-) In my (somewhat limited) experience, it's not the extremes you need to worry about, it's the duration. 10F or 110F isn't a problem for any unit as long as 1. it lasts less than 24 hours, 2. isn't operated during the extreme (duh), and 3. has a chance to warm/cool gradually before operation to avoid condensation issues. My hardware experience stops at 1977 so obviously I may be missing things like water-cooled Crays that should never be subjected to freezing temperatures, etc. > I have mixed feelings about ebay. Its incredibly convenient for > obscure items, but the bidding frenzy stuff and the "view at a > distance" aspect sometimes irk me. I got over the pricing stuff a while ago (I snipe all my bids automatically using a service); what irks me currently is the wild range of prices. There are outfits who list things like somewhat uncommon PC and Mac components (drives, cables, a ROM, etc.) for $150 or more -- excuse me?? I guess 'old' equals 'goldmine' to the stupid people, and it bugs me to no end that you can't talk them down. Ebay stops being convenient at that point. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 29 01:13:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 23:13:36 -0800 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: <001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com> <1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site> <001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: At 11:44 PM -0500 12/28/05, Teo Zenios wrote: >You guys sound like you spend a mint on just storing the collection. Out of >curiosity what is the most expensive part of the hobby (acquiring, shipping, >electricity, storage, upgrading&refurbishing, etc)? Storage, the rest are short-term costs, but storage just keeps haunting you :^( Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lundin_bjorn at bredband.net Wed Dec 28 18:12:38 2005 From: lundin_bjorn at bredband.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Lundin?=) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:12:38 +0100 Subject: Fluke 9010A or 9100 equipment Message-ID: <000501c60c0c$950ee500$6459e655@andersdator> Hello Kev, are you still looking for a 9010A? Mine comes with an 80186 pod and I belive it was working last time it was powered up. Yours Bjorn Lundin Mariehallsvagen 49 S-18438 Akersberga Sweden From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Dec 29 02:30:23 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 09:30:23 +0100 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <20051229051747.7C83673029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <5B0C7EF4-7845-11DA-A5B6-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am donderdag, 29.12.05, um 06:17 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner: > > It's taken me several days to mull on this and the inevitable > progression > of computers. Anyway, the subject line only comes up rather deep into > this > reply to Tony about his "I don't replace boards" stance: > >>> non-functioning chips? I mean, one blown gate and you toss the >> >> I am not sure anyone can repair a chip. Are you suggesting I start >> moving >> atoms around to correct the wrong doping levels, oxided metal traces, >> etc? Some classes of failures can be repaired with a FIB ( focused ion beam ) machine. We used it extensivly when debugging new chips. Very handy for rewiring and probing. With current processes (65nm and 6 or 7 metallayers) it is becoming rapidly impossible to do anything on the chip level. At operating costs of 600 USD / hour a FIB machine is probably not for the avarage hobbyist. And we wont go into space issues and the rather nasty chemicals that are used in the FIB or in opening up plastic packages. > The 7400 chip is documented to work under certain conditions, with > these > inputs and output. Just as a two port serial card for the PC is > documented > to work with the ports at such-n-such address with so-n-so IRQ and > what not > (or else, not many people will buy the thing). > > Discreet components -> IC -> boards -> computers > >>> [2] Or in other words---the "components" in today's computers are >>> bigger >>> than yesterday's computers. Right now, the "components" are >>> boards/cards and I can certainly see it being whole computers >> >> Maybe to you, but it's not happened here yet. This list will not convince Tony otherwise, I also tried ... But keep in mind that Tony is unemployed, so for him the timey vs. money thing looks different. I also understand the desire to have everything under control (i.e. understanding your machine to the last bit ), but the price for that is becoming higher and higher as technology develops. Jos Dreesen From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 29 02:41:22 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:41:22 -0600 Subject: Dallas clock battery Message-ID: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> ISTR somebody recently mentioned soldering battery leads to two legs of a Dallas CMOS clock chip. Does that ring any bells? I'm fiddling with a Compaq SLT/286 whose Dallas module is very dead. I'd like to fix it. Doc From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 03:16:45 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:16:45 -0800 Subject: IBM 3084 thermal module, s50 card, Pro 350 memory, NI GPIB, Tandy 100 and more Message-ID: I have a bunch of interesting stuff on eBay. The IBM 3084 Chip and thermal module in its last few hours. The reserve is half of what I mentioned earlier. Also a S50 card with 8 Intel 1702 Eproms. New memory card for a DEC Pro 350, National Insturments GPIB card, Tandy Model 100 laptop outfit, Data I/O 6802 plug Texas Instrument 320C25GBL Digital Signal Processors HP 41 minicasette and a Quantum SCSI DLT IV tape drive model 7000 My sellers name is Innfosale http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZinnfosale -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Dec 28 23:43:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 21:43:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Available: Multibus form-factor Augat boards Message-ID: <200512290543.VAA07236@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "William Maddox" > >I have four of these to get rid of. They are used and >wired, and most have bypass capacitors soldered in on the >component side, but the wiring side is wire-wrap only. >These aren't the greatest boards, and I doubt that unwrapping >them is any fun, which is why I culled them from the lot that >I bought. They are available for the cost of postage, however, >or free for local pickup in Santa Clara, if anyone is interested >in them before they go to the scrapper. > >--Bill Hi Bill I got to go. If you want to contact me tonight, email me at dkelvey at hotmail.com. I'll check that email later. I also have a cell phone. It is 408 242 9798. Later Dwight From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Dec 29 04:35:02 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:35:02 -0800 Subject: Available: Multibus form-factor Augat boards In-Reply-To: <200512290543.VAA07236@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512290543.VAA07236@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43B3BBD6.3070303@pacbell.net> Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi Bill > I got to go. If you want to contact me tonight, email > me at dkelvey at hotmail.com. I'll check that email later. > I also have a cell phone. It is 408 242 9798. > Later > Dwight From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Dec 29 04:56:33 2005 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:56:33 +0100 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE226A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> A bit long reply ... My collection outgrew the room in which all was more or less "in storage", because I got so many that there was no more room to play with them. That's the point when I decided that I needed more space. Renting some storage is not expensive in the beginning, but that are recurring cotst every month. An other drawback is that such a storage is not near your house, so (what I do almost every evening) going to have a look at the collection (I love the sight of those machines) would not be possible. I could build something in the backyard, but there were restrictions from the local authorities, otherwise it would sure be at least twice as big! The outside measures 30 sq. m. It is built like a house: a good floor to carry +/- 5000 kilo (at this moment) and under the tiles is a 500W. electrical heating. I wanted to keep all machines in a "good" environment so, the temperature is never below 10" Celcius, even now, when it is outside freezing 7" Celcius. To keep the temperature inside there is 10 cm spacing between the outside and inside walls. That 10 cm consists of air and glass-fiber insulation, the normal stuff used in Holland when a house is built. The inside stone wall is made of bricks that have small air pockets (for better temp. insulation). I would have built a bit cheaper (especially the windows and the door), but my wife insisted: you build it *good*, or you don't build at all! Regarding the power installation, I had to get that from the closet where the power company cable enters the house. As I could not wire *under* the house, I had to dig a 60 cm trench around the house (deep, I know, but I do not want any hassle from local authorities). I have put in 5-wire 4 sq. mm. which is good for 3-phase power, at least 32 Amps per phase. If I "upgrade" the power company fuses (behind seals, so I can not do that myself), I actually can draw 16 Amps per group at 230 VAC. and I have 6 groups! That should be enough to run the PDP-11/70 and the two RM03s at the same time. BTW, the "making of ..." does not show everything. There are a lot of small construction details that I did not know of. But my neighbour (it is not my brother, but hey, the Dutch "IRS" might read my site) works in the "construction business", and I would have done a few things not so well. While building they are simple, but when it's done and you have trouble with damp walls, things are not so easy anymore! Oh, and the outside roof was done by a chap retired in that business. So, the place was built "after hours". It saves a lot of money, but the drawback is that the construction took approx 6 months. Actually, I have the power just since two months! And now I am sort-of-playing with the first machine, the 11/34C. After three years not-powered, I have had a lot of problems getting the machine to run, and I am still not out of the weeds! But I do learn a lot in the mean time. Tip: run your machines at least once a month to keep them "healthy"! Talk nice to them :-) I will shoot new pictures of the "computer room", of which you can see one on the "Update Status" page. The wall at the end is not so empty anymore ... The latest addition is *NOT* a DIGITAL machine. Allthough I do restrict myself to DEC, I could not resist the offer of a DATA GENERAL NOVA 3D with the machine matching printer and terminal. Further, it has 192 Mb memory (so MMU must be installed) and it has two disk drives, and comes with several 10 Mb cartridges. Plus 3 boxs of documentation still shrick-wrapped. I did a quick check on bitsavers, and saw noting of the 3D. I guess the new year will bring a lot of scanning work ... If you ask "why get that non-DEC machine?", the answer is simple. For two reasons: 1) DG was founded (?) or the Nova was built (?) [not sure what applies] by people that left DEC! just like Amdahl was founded by poeple who left IBM, and 2) it's a complete, and original setup. BTW, the I will keep the Nova in the house, next to the HAM radio stuff. But it is a tight fit, getting full again! If I ever win the lottery big time, I will move. My wife can decide on the (new) house, I am just looking for s p a c e , (not the final frontier). About 3 times what I have now would be nice, for starters :-). Everybody, a healthy 2006! (the most important thing in life, whatever you collect!) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: do 29-12-2005 07:02 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) For those of you that have larger machines, do you set them up in "machine room" configurations like the Netherlands PDP-11 room? Do any of you have your collection housed somewhere with a raised machine-room tile floor for routing cables underneath? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Dec 29 05:04:38 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 03:04:38 -0800 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200512290232.SAA04286@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200512290232.SAA04286@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43B3C2C6.4070908@pacbell.net> Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi > Some types of foam don't last long. I wonder if one > could make some with closed cell foam instead. It > last much longer but is a little stiffer than the > foam that they seem to be using. > If it is a capacitive you should be able to make > new capacitors with some aluminum foil and clear > tape. Aluminized mylar is easy to come by in the form of mylar punched-tape stock. It is quite expensive these days, but a single roll would go a long way. Also, aluminized mylar is widely used in balloons and novelty items, which could be harvested for material. I have no idea if the thickness is critical, but this sort of material would likely be much more conformant than aluminum foil. --Bill From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Thu Dec 29 06:46:02 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 06:46:02 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <43B38155.4010506@oldskool.org> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B38155.4010506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43B3DA8A.50305@vzavenue.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > >> don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I >> don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I have >> some things much older, and quite a bit of newer stuff that I >> like having, too. > > > I'm with you. The "ten year rule" is crap -- there, I've said it. > It's not even enforced anyway, since people here would have no problem > talking about SGI Indigos or BeBoxen or DEC Alpha machines or similar > stuff, and that's all newer than 10 years old, or just barely. > > I think the 10-year "rule", if there is to be one, should only apply > to wintel boxes. I believe that's the spirit of the rule anyway. Actually as of 1/1/2006, both the BeBox and Sgi Indy fall under the "ten year rule". -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Dec 29 08:37:23 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:37:23 +0000 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> References: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43B3F4A3.5050706@gjcp.net> Charles wrote: > Is there anything in the circuitry that can't be run a little > slower (or 1.2% faster, 27 MHz)? I'm not worried about squeezing > every last MIPS out of it. 27MHz will be close enough. I don't think anything will be too upset at slightly altered timings. If you notice any weirdness, go down the route of getting a custom crystal cut if you're *sure* it's because the clock is a tiny bit faster. Gordon. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Dec 29 08:40:06 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 08:40:06 -0600 Subject: What is this PDP-8 board? Message-ID: <11t7r19l67a3dnjctl976m5porvnlor96j@4ax.com> I asked about this last year but no one recognized it... This "mystery board" came in a batch of Omnibus boards I bought for my 8/A. I think it's some kind of video display card? http://tinypic.com/jax62r.jpg http://tinypic.com/jax6w4.jpg -Charles From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 29 10:14:50 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:14:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <5B0C7EF4-7845-11DA-A5B6-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > At operating costs of 600 USD / hour a FIB machine is probably not for > the avarage hobbyist. > And we wont go into space issues and the rather nasty chemicals that > are used in the FIB or in opening up plastic packages. But of course, in a few years some nut is going to have one operating in his garage for a lot less! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 29 10:30:51 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:30:51 -0500 Subject: What is this PDP-8 board? References: <11t7r19l67a3dnjctl976m5porvnlor96j@4ax.com> Message-ID: <010801c60c95$3c5fa780$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Looks like an RGBS connector set, yes, but are there No identifying numbers on any of the card edges? John A. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 11:17:26 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:17:26 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:34:35 -0600. <43B3837B.7040507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43B3837B.7040507 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > I got over the pricing stuff a while ago (I snipe all my bids > automatically using a service); what irks me currently is the wild range > of prices. There are outfits who list things like somewhat uncommon PC > and Mac components (drives, cables, a ROM, etc.) for $150 or more -- > excuse me?? I guess 'old' equals 'goldmine' to the stupid people, and > it bugs me to no end that you can't talk them down. Ebay stops being > convenient at that point. Yeah, I have noticed this too. There's also the mentality of "rare" == "expensive". A Q-bus A/D converter board was recently listed with a minimum bid of $250 (!). When noone bid, he relisted it at minimum bid of $200 and still noone bid. It hasn't been relisted again, I wonder if he sold it elsewhere for a "best offer" price. Then I see things like *pieces* of computers being offered for prices higher than entire systems sell on ebay and its only a "buy now" item with an expiration date of 90 days. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Dec 29 11:20:14 2005 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:20:14 -0500 Subject: FREE printers - Spring Hill Florida - FREE Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20051229121958.03f9cc28@tampabay.rr.com> I have four printers that were used on the Commodore 64 and will probably work fine on other machines. They are dot matrix printers. They are rather old and I am unable to test them but have been told that they worked the last time they were used. They are FREE for the taking but they must be picked up in Spring Hill Florida. I will not ship them Commodore MPS-801 Printer Commodore MPS-802 Printer (have two of these) Juki 6100 printer From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 29 12:15:51 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:15:51 -0500 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051229130837.01be5ce0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Charles may have mentioned these words: >After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to >talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz >crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). > >Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive >(around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, >25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. I are a dumby when it comes to PDPs, but if you're worried about overclocking, Mouser has 26Mhz oscillators on the shelf - it's closer than 25.x Mhz. Page 665 in the catalog, IIRC. Their search utility is somewhat OK, too, at least to narrow down a page or two of the catalog, then you can view each page as a PDF. Not a bad system, really. [[ A page or two before that, they have Fox custom oscillators as well - I don't know if they're a better price than Digikey or not... ]] As always, just a satisfied customer; no other affiliations. ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Dec 29 12:32:02 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:32:02 +0100 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051229130837.01be5ce0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000601c60ca6$299394c0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? > Rumor has it that Charles may have mentioned these words: > >After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to > >talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz > >crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). > > > >Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive > >(around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, > >25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. > The 27 MHZ unit is only 333 Hz off, which is 0.00125%, if I have my decimal point correct. A common trick to change the frequence of a crystal, is to put a capacitor in parallel with it. Nico From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 29 12:32:05 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:32:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <000601c60ca6$299394c0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051229130837.01be5ce0@mail.30below.com> <000601c60ca6$299394c0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200512291835.NAA22711@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> (26.667 MHz crystal oscillator) >>> 25, 25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. > The 27 MHZ unit is only 333 Hz off, Um, 333 KHz. > which is 0.00125%, if I have my decimal point correct. 1.25% (well, 1.248734+%) - 333Hz would be (approximately) 0.00125%, but 333KHz is 1000 times that. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 29 12:38:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 11:38:33 -0700 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B42D29.2050903@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>At operating costs of 600 USD / hour a FIB machine is probably not for >>the avarage hobbyist. >>And we wont go into space issues and the rather nasty chemicals that >>are used in the FIB or in opening up plastic packages. >> >> > >But of course, in a few years some nut is going to have one >operating in his garage for a lot less! > > > So where are a the chip fab components that made good old TTL? I guess they are so secret that they never made it to the surplus market.! >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > PS Anybody have a list of NEEDED IC's re-manufactured for old computers? From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 29 13:09:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:09:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <43B42D29.2050903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I guess they are so secret that they never made it to the surplus market.! I would bet there are a few nuts with stuff like this in garages as well. But there is NO POINT in making new TTL. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 29 13:18:29 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:18:29 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 Keyboard Question In-Reply-To: <200512291800.jBTI0RGh061432@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001501c60cac$afcaa780$6701a8c0@barry> There was a thread on this on COMP.OS.CPM. Also, there is a lot of information on this on Jim Battle's web site. The last known source of replacement foam pads for Keytronics keyboards ... they may still be available ... was: Mike Stephens Mil-Key Corp. 10406 E 6th Ave Spokane, WA 99206 509-891-6425 m-corp at qwest.net There was a discussion on comp.os.cpm from a guy who successfully made his own replacement keypads, he even prepared a PDF showing how it was done (complete with photos). It's possible, but it's a LOT of work. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Dec 29 13:30:46 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:30:46 -0000 Subject: Simh problem Message-ID: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi All, I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and formatted. What have I done wrong? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 29 13:30:53 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:30:53 -0500 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512291430.53804.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 29 December 2005 14:09, William Donzelli wrote: > > I guess they are so secret that they never made it to the surplus > > market.! > > I would bet there are a few nuts with stuff like this in garages as > well. > > But there is NO POINT in making new TTL. Unless you wanted to make something strange/nonstandard, or which is hard to come by, like the 7480/82/83 full adder, one of the 748x RAM's, etc, and didn't want to use a PAL. :) This is a hobbyist thing after all... Of course, the real bitch about doing a fab in your garage, as opposed to most classic computing, is the really high temp furnaces, and the rather toxic chemicals you have to use. I'd imagine that you could get in a lot of trouble with, eg, the EPA (or maybe even the DHS nowadays) if someone found out you were doing a fab at your house, in the US. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 29 13:54:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:54:57 -0700 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <200512291430.53804.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512291430.53804.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43B43F11.9070205@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Thursday 29 December 2005 14:09, William Donzelli wrote: > > >>>I guess they are so secret that they never made it to the surplus >>>market.! >>> >>> >>I would bet there are a few nuts with stuff like this in garages as >>well. >> >>But there is NO POINT in making new TTL. >> >> > > > Well I guess it is rather hard to make OLD TTL. Well I want LDL logic... Light emiting diode logic ... The diodes in the chip glow when active. The DIP even has the Nand Symbols and conections printed on it. >Of course, the real bitch about doing a fab in your garage, as opposed >to most classic computing, is the really high temp furnaces, and the >rather toxic chemicals you have to use. I'd imagine that you could get >in a lot of trouble with, eg, the EPA (or maybe even the DHS nowadays) >if someone found out you were doing a fab at your house, in the US. > > > Heck, you can't even have a DIY web page up even as a JOKE. Lighting a BBQ with LOX was a great page! The chemicals would be the bitch -- all trade secrets, not the fab itself. >Pat > > But I do expect there is a list of often needed old TTL,RTL & DTL to keep classic hardware running. From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:26:59 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:26:59 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512291526.59597.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 28 December 2005 05:48 pm, Richard wrote: > Then there are things like C=64s and VIC-20s which you can just > "sacrifice" to the crowd knowing that you can always pick up another > one for repairs. I have lots of parts for those, but know someone who is looking for SID chips, and I haven't been able to find any at all, lately. Anybody have some they don't want? > In that scenario I think the most fragile thing would be media, but if you > replace the floppy drives with faked interfaces into IDE/PC storage behind > the scenes, then that concern fades away as well. Yeah, but then you'd lose the sound effects. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:35:35 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:35:35 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 28 December 2005 08:09 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > > My lot is fairly large (0.23 acres) and I have a huge area in the back > > of the lot that is essentially "unused", where I could build > > something. But for a public museum I'd rather not have it in the back > > yard of my house, so I am considering purchasing some undeveloped land > > in a cheaper part of the city. I wouldn't consider that size to be "fairly large" but then I'm thinking in terms of "several acres", probably as rural as I can manage to get... > I am a collector, and consider myself somewhat of a conservator, > but I don't personally have interest in maintaining a museum. > Right now my storage system borders on being a disaster, in part > because of a lack of organization and optimization of space. Sounds familiar. I have the larger of two "bedrooms" in a second floor apartment with way too much stuff in it, stuff in the hallway, in front of my bookshelves, and a 10x20 storage unit. > I have 3-4 spare acres here, though, and long term plans include > putting down a cement slab out there and then a pole building. > Insulation and heat eventually, so it can be a place to operate > instead of just for storage. At present the second bedroom is > completely crammed, my 'main labspace' room is so congested that > I can't even get to the electronics bench..., I have to be very > careful what I leave in the garage (unheated, somewhat unsealed > against the elements) Euw. What would worry me more than anything else about not being completely sealed is rodents, they can be very destructive. We've had a problem with mice here in the house this year. > I am at the point where it's time to post giveaways and > real-cheap-sale items on eBay just to get rid of some of the > excess, which isn't necessarily museum-grade stuff, but then... I > don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I > don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I have > some things much older, and quite a bit of newer stuff that I > like having, too. Usually things that don't get mentioned here > because that isn't the focus of this list, but it belongs at > least in this post. I hear ya! :-) > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. All those wonderful > 8255, 6821 and Z80 peripheral chips, all the SRAM parts I have, > etc. I have a bunch of that stuff on hand as well, plus 6502, 6510, 6522, 6526, and some vic20- and c64-specific parts -- not because I have any particular enthusiasm for those chips, but because I used to fix 'em. And a 6809, and I think a z8001 somewhere. And then those 80xx microcontroller chips, and probably others. > I'm now in the process of dipping my feet in the GnuEDA package, because I > need a decent robust schematic capture program that isn't either an illegal > 'evaluation' copy or a four figure investment. I downloaded that at one point and had subscribed to their user list but it read too much like a developer's list to suit me, and I never did get around to getting it installed and configured. > In it's recent incarnation built on NetBSD/i386 I am so far very impressed > with Gschem. (I *like* the fact that I have the complete source for the > entire setup. Yes. I like that sort of thing very much myself. :-) > Schematics I create are mine forever, etc. etc.) > > Housing my collection? It's a *disaster* but my wife puts up > with it. She isn't even complaing loudly yet that I haven't > moved the bandsaw she gave me for Christmas (she works at > Menards) out of the living room yet. Heh. Sounds like you're definitely worse than I am! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dan at ekoan.com Thu Dec 29 14:49:18 2005 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:49:18 -0500 Subject: IBM System 34 equipment in Lexington, Kentucky (USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20051229154409.040c9eb0@mail.marcal.com> Hello, I've been contacted by a gentleman who has three (3) IBM System 34s along with documentation, line printers, and terminals in Lexington, Kentucky. My personal interest tends toward Hewlett-Packard equipment, so if anyone is able to make the trip to Kentucky to rescue these, send me an e-mail off list and I'll put you in touch with him. The equipment is free, but I don't think he's interested in shipping anything. Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:47:08 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:47:08 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512291547.08102.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 03:41 am, Doc Shipley wrote: > ISTR somebody recently mentioned soldering battery leads to two legs > of a Dallas CMOS clock chip. Does that ring any bells? > > I'm fiddling with a Compaq SLT/286 whose Dallas module is very dead. > I'd like to fix it. Speaking of which, I have one of those modules that I pulled off some board that was otherwise trashed. Is there any easy way to tell what condition the battery is in? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:47:56 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:47:56 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512291547.56399.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 03:41 am, Doc Shipley wrote: > ISTR somebody recently mentioned soldering battery leads to two legs > of a Dallas CMOS clock chip. Does that ring any bells? > > I'm fiddling with a Compaq SLT/286 whose Dallas module is very dead. > I'd like to fix it. Oh, and I _was_ able to find the datasheet for the one I have on hand here, maybe that's worth a shot? Don't remember where I found it offhand, though alldatasheet.com is probably a good place to start. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:54:10 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:54:10 -0500 Subject: FREE printers - Spring Hill Florida - FREE In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20051229121958.03f9cc28@tampabay.rr.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20051229121958.03f9cc28@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <200512291554.10904.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 12:20 pm, Gene Ehrich wrote: > I have four printers that were used on the Commodore 64 and will > probably work fine on other machines. They are dot matrix printers. > They are rather old and I am unable to test them but have been told > that they worked the last time they were used. Most printers have a feature where they'll go into some sort of a self-test mode if you hold down some button while turning the power on. There aren't that many buttons on most of these... > They are FREE for the taking but they must be picked up in Spring > Hill Florida. I will not ship them > > Commodore MPS-801 Printer > > Commodore MPS-802 Printer (have two of these) > > Juki 6100 printer The c= printers probably *won't* work with any non-c= machine, they're serial-bus connected, right? The Juki 6100 is a daisywheel, does anybody consider these worth anything these days? I have a couple of them in storage that I've been considering scrapping out, *BIG* ones. One is a daisywheel (I forget the make/model) and the other a NEC Spinwriter (uses a "thimble" rather than a daisywheel but it's the same basic idea). These worth anything to anybody? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 14:59:39 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:59:39 -0500 Subject: datasheet wanted Message-ID: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I have some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I haven't had much luck finding one so far... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 15:14:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:14:07 +0000 Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 12/29/05, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I have > some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I haven't had much luck > finding one so far... IIRC the 74S409 is a 48-pin DRAM controller. Maybe that will help? -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 06:17:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:17:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: <6fa6r118t9fmda4t64jkm81eu750hurv6n@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Dec 28, 5 06:23:51 pm Message-ID: > > After pulling out my hair for a while trying to get my PDP-11 to > talk to me, I finally discovered that the master clock (26.667 MHz > crystal oscillator) is dead. (KDF-11BA CPU board). > > Those metal-package oscillators are very common and inexpensive > (around $2), but I can't find one in that exact frequency. 25, > 25.175 and 27 MHz units are available. Semi-custom ones aren't > terribly much more expensive (~ $15) but have longer lead times. > > Is there anything in the circuitry that can't be run a little > slower (or 1.2% faster, 27 MHz)? I'm not worried about squeezing > every last MIPS out of it. I've not actually worked on this machine, but I know that the old Unibus 11's have nothing that depends on the exact freqeucny of the Xtal. I would be suprised if any of the ones you mentioned wouldn't work fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 06:20:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:20:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 5 04:59:37 pm Message-ID: > > The following site seems to think that you can use junker Sun 4 keyboards > for parts: Keytronics keyboards turn up on all sorts of machines (I've come across them on PERQ 2's, Apricots, Tekky workstations, etc). And from what I've seen the mylar/foam disk assemblies are all the same size However, these parts decay naturally, whether the keyboard has been used or not. I'd be a bit careful about spending money on an old keyboard to get them. They may well be useless, or fail again in a short time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 06:41:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:41:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <20051229051747.7C83673029@linus.area51.conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Dec 29, 5 00:17:47 am Message-ID: > > > 2. (might as well ask, as long as I'm asking) I know you dislike > > > the whole "board swap" mentality and that you prefer replacing > > > blown chips over replacing a whole board. But why not repair those > > > non-functioning chips? I mean, one blown gate and you toss the > > > > I am not sure anyone can repair a chip. Are you suggesting I start moving > > atoms around to correct the wrong doping levels, oxided metal traces, etc? > > The first computers were designed and built out of discreet components, > which gave away to integrated circuits. Not only did it become cheaper to > build computers, but easier as well, but I'm sure there were guys out there > who ridiculed those that couldn't hack a computer with discreet compoments. FWIW, I have little time for a so-called electronic designer who can't handle discrete components. Just as I have little time for a digital designer who doesn't understand analogue stuff. Even today the are times when a few discrete components are the best solution, particularly for 1-off stuff. > The 7400 chip is documented to work under certain conditions, with these > inputs and output. Just as a two port serial card for the PC is documented > to work with the ports at such-n-such address with so-n-so IRQ and what not > (or else, not many people will buy the thing). And there your analogy breaks down. I have the Texas Instruments data sheet foe the 7400. It's several pages long (I can go and get it if you like), it includes a component-level schematic of that NAND gate, it contains a lot of electrical specifications. And that's for a very simple chip. If a Texas Instruments SN7400 fails, I can use those specs to work out that I don't _have_ to get the exact same part most of the time. Many other comapanies made chips with similar, if not indentical, specs. There wrre other families of TTL logic -- say 74S00,74LS00, etc that have different specs, also documented. Again, in some applications I can use those, in some I can't. The specs let me be sure. I might be happier treating a board -- a motherboard or an I/O card -- as a component if I could get proper documetation and specs for it. When was the last time you saw a motherboard that came with pinout and timing diagrams? With a bit-level description of every I/O register used on that board? and so on. Without that information, if my motherboard fails and that particular one is no longer in production, how do I know that the one I replace it with is going to behave in the same way under all conditions. I keep on seeing PC-related products that come with drivers for the current version of Windows, but nothing else, and no available specifications to write drivers for other OSes. That's like supplying a chip withot a data sheet, just a sort-of applications circuit. Totally useless if you actually want to do something different with the product. And to return to the PC serial port card. Can you please tell me where to find a clone serial card that is exactly compatible in all respects with the IBM one in my PC/XT system [1]? [1] Note for the uninitiated. The IBM serial card has 2 odd features that were not present in most, if not all, clones. The first is that it can pull pin B8 (IIRS) low during I/O reads, needed if the card is used in slot 8 of the IBM PC/XT. The second is that it has a current loop interface as well as RS232 . > > Maybe to you, but it's not happened here yet. > > "Here" being your house? Or England? Because it's certainly a reality My workshop... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 06:44:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:44:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <43B38155.4010506@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 29, 5 00:25:25 am Message-ID: > I'm with you. The "ten year rule" is crap -- there, I've said it. It's > not even enforced anyway, since people here would have no problem > talking about SGI Indigos or BeBoxen or DEC Alpha machines or similar > stuff, and that's all newer than 10 years old, or just barely. > > I think the 10-year "rule", if there is to be one, should only apply to > wintel boxes. I believe that's the spirit of the rule anyway. Just out of curiousity, apart from obvious off-topic stuff (like 'please fix my modern Windows PC'), has the 10 year rule ever been strictly enforced? I think I've seen plenty of threads about machines that are strictly too new to be mentioned here, but which are interesting enough that nobody cares -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 06:50:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <5B0C7EF4-7845-11DA-A5B6-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 29, 5 09:30:23 am Message-ID: > This list will not convince Tony otherwise, I also tried ... What bothers me is whu you want to convince me otherwise. > But keep in mind that Tony is unemployed, so for him the timey vs. > money thing looks different. Sure does. I've got plenty of time, and little money. And I don't depend on my computers to make money either. Anyhow, it probably takes me less time to find and replace a chip with one from the junkbox than to go to a PC shop and buy a replacement board. > > I also understand the desire to have everything under control (i.e. > understanding your machine to the last bit ), but the price for that is > becoming higher and higher as technology develops. I am quite happy with old technology, thank you.... AFAIK the only things that the rest of you can do and I can't are things I wouldn't want to do anyway (mostly relating to games, music and digital photographs). -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 29 15:22:46 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:22:46 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B453A6.5060707@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>I'm with you. The "ten year rule" is crap -- there, I've said it. It's >>not even enforced anyway, since people here would have no problem >>talking about SGI Indigos or BeBoxen or DEC Alpha machines or similar >>stuff, and that's all newer than 10 years old, or just barely. >> >>I think the 10-year "rule", if there is to be one, should only apply to >>wintel boxes. I believe that's the spirit of the rule anyway. > > > Just out of curiousity, apart from obvious off-topic stuff (like 'please > fix my modern Windows PC'), has the 10 year rule ever been strictly > enforced? I think I've seen plenty of threads about machines that are > strictly too new to be mentioned here, but which are interesting enough > that nobody cares I've come to believe that the only real "10-year rule" strictly enforced is thr one that decrees that every 75 days or so, we have an extended discussion about the 10-year rule. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 15:27:17 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:27:17 -0800 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <200512291547.08102.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <200512291547.08102.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200512291327170281.15806C1F@10.0.0.252> Did some digging--apparently you can use a DS12887 as a direct replacement--and they're available new. See: http://www.pro-networks.org/forum/post-183844.html&sid=0413dac1eb5667f577789 cd2a7812723 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 15:30:20 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:30:20 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:26:59 -0500. <200512291526.59597.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200512291526.59597.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Wednesday 28 December 2005 05:48 pm, Richard wrote: > > Then there are things like C=64s and VIC-20s which you can just > > "sacrifice" to the crowd knowing that you can always pick up another > > one for repairs. > > I have lots of parts for those, but know someone who is looking for SID > chips, and I haven't been able to find any at all, lately. Anybody have > some they don't want? Yeah, the SID chips are in demand all by themselves as people yank them from machines in order to make their own synthesizers based around the SIDs. I think I even heard that you can't necessarily create a fully equivalent clone of the chip as the sound will vary from unit to unit slightly due to R/C drift in the chips! Most people I know that want SID chips look for either a) cartridges that had the SID integrated into it to support SID-based sound on systems that didn't have a SID (VIC-20?), or literally yank them from extant systems. > > In that scenario I think the most fragile thing would be media, but if you > > replace the floppy drives with faked interfaces into IDE/PC storage behind > > the scenes, then that concern fades away as well. > > Yeah, but then you'd lose the sound effects. :-) Who says the faked interfaces can't have speakers and audio playback of sound effects? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 29 15:32:11 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:32:11 -0700 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B455DB.1090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >[1] Note for the uninitiated. The IBM serial card has 2 odd features that >were not present in most, if not all, clones. The first is that it can >pull pin B8 (IIRS) low during I/O reads, needed if the card is used in >slot 8 of the IBM PC/XT. The second is that it has a current loop >interface as well as RS232 . > > > Does any of the newer serial cards have the current loop option? Was it only TTY's that used the current loop? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 15:33:02 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:33:02 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:35:35 -0500. <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200512291535.35083.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Wednesday 28 December 2005 08:09 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > My lot is fairly large (0.23 acres) [...] > > I wouldn't consider that size to be "fairly large" but then I'm thinking in > terms of "several acres", probably as rural as I can manage to get... For a house in an urban setting, that is a pretty large lot. Its a postage stamp compared to rural lots though. When I was house shopping I was shown 3 BR houses on 0.10 acre lots. The "yard" consisted of a 1 ft. wide strip of grass in front of the house. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 29 15:37:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:37:46 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B4572A.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > >>>In that scenario I think the most fragile thing would be media, but if you >>>replace the floppy drives with faked interfaces into IDE/PC storage behind >>>the scenes, then that concern fades away as well. >>> >>> >>Yeah, but then you'd lose the sound effects. :-) >> >> > >Who says the faked interfaces can't have speakers and audio playback >of sound effects? :-) > > I thought you ment 'This $%#$! stupid floppy is badl" or "where is that *dam* file". Aslo did not the C64 and Amiga have a genlock option for tv signals? From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Dec 29 15:35:31 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:35:31 -0500 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <43B455DB.1090200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B455DB.1090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512291635.31195.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 04:32 pm, woodelf wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >[1] Note for the uninitiated. The IBM serial card has 2 odd features that > >were not present in most, if not all, clones. The first is that it can > >pull pin B8 (IIRS) low during I/O reads, needed if the card is used in > >slot 8 of the IBM PC/XT. The second is that it has a current loop > >interface as well as RS232 . > > Does any of the newer serial cards have the current loop option? > Was it only TTY's that used the current loop? First ever "hands on" computer for me was a Heathkit H11 system that I got to build. The "terminal" for it was a Decwriter, which used current loop, if I'm remembering right. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 15:45:33 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:45:33 -0700 Subject: FREE printers - Spring Hill Florida - FREE In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:54:10 -0500. <200512291554.10904.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200512291554.10904.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > The Juki 6100 is a daisywheel, does anybody consider these worth anything > these days? I have a couple of them in storage that I've been considering > scrapping out, *BIG* ones. One is a daisywheel (I forget the make/model) > and the other a NEC Spinwriter (uses a "thimble" rather than a daisywheel but > it's the same basic idea). > > These worth anything to anybody? I guess its not strictly a "daisy wheel" since it uses the IBM selectric ball type element, but I used to print my "letter quality" documents on an IBM selectric typewriter style thingy that operated at 134.5 baud. It felt *painfully* slow even though I was accustomed to 300 baud serial terminals on an acoustic coupler style modem. I also remember it being *very* heavy, like 100+ lbs. describes an IBM 2741 as being part of a desk, but the unit I remember was a tabletop model. Not exactly "portable", but it could be moved like a typewriter. (Even a regular Selectric typewriter is heavy!) If the 2741 is what I'm remembering (the number sounds correct), I would love to add one to my collection! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 15:47:10 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:47:10 -0700 Subject: Databooks In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:59:39 -0500. <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: I have a large collection of databooks that I saved when Evans & Sutherland shut down their workstation division and moved out of their building circa 1993. I am not thinking of chucking these, but is there an interest in me generating a list of titles? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 15:48:08 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:48:08 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:37:46 -0700. <43B4572A.2000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <43B4572A.2000400 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Aslo did not the C64 and Amiga have a genlock option for tv signals? There was definately a genlock option for the Amiga, dunno about the C=64, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 16:12:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:12:10 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: References: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051229171210.236126b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:20:28 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > The following site seems to think that you can use junker Sun 4 keyboards > > for parts: > > Keytronics keyboards turn up on all sorts of machines (I've come across > them on PERQ 2's, Apricots, Tekky workstations, etc). And from what I've > seen the mylar/foam disk assemblies are all the same size > > However, these parts decay naturally, whether the keyboard has been used > or not. I'd be a bit careful about spending money on an old keyboard to > get them. They may well be useless, or fail again in a short time. > > -tony Also, it could turn into a scene of enthusiasts for one type of machine butchering the last extant keyboard for some other hard-to-find machine for these components. Someone needs to come up with a solution using current available materials. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Dec 29 16:20:42 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:20:42 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? Message-ID: <20051229222042.2478FBA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I'm looking to get a nice IBM Selectric typewriter - for typewriter, not computer console, use. Not too picky as to typeball etc., but if someone wants to tell me what to look for and what to avoid, I'm all ears. In the past I've used both Selectric II's and III's and can't say I prefer one over the other. I am looking to keep it for many years with only light to moderate use so reliability/parts availability is somewhat important. Anyone want to recommend a US (or Washington DC) area dealer who stands above the rest? Or should I just take my chances on E-pay? Is there a more appropriate forum for asking about typewriters? Tim. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 16:30:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:30:20 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:59:46 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel at earthlink.net>, > Scott Stevens writes: > > What does everyone think is an acceptable temperature range for > storage? In Salt Lake my garage will get below freezing in winter and > above 110 F in the summer. > > > I am at the point where it's time to post giveaways and > > real-cheap-sale items on eBay just to get rid of some of the > > excess, which isn't necessarily museum-grade stuff, but then... I > > Will you give us a chance before ebay? :-) > I post from time to time about giveaways. I am talking about things like Apple CDROM drives, etc. > > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. > > Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? http://sasteven.multics.org/8088page.html (it has gone dormant at the moment) > > > All those wonderful > > 8255, 6821 and Z80 peripheral chips, all the SRAM parts I have, > > etc. > > I only recently heard about people specializing in collecting > individual chips rather than whole systems. It makes perfect sense > from a collecting perspective now that I've heard of it, but I'd never > considered the idea myself. Do you purposefully look for specific > chips? Are you satisfied in removing them from shipping systems or do > you try to find "virgin" chips in their shipping tubes? > I don't 'collect' chips so much as I accumulate them. I recently got a whole scad more being thrown away at work. (Anybody need a Triac? I now have 900 of them new in the tubes.) I do have some chips that I collect individually, and there's room for such a hobby to evolve. Early datecode analog and TTL parts have a lot of interest to me. I've always spent a lot of time looking up and speccing out any IC Part Number I've not encountered before. But I want to USE them in new projects. The most recent project I can look back on was an all-TTL stepper motor controller that I built some time ago. > > I'm now in the process of dipping my feet in the GnuEDA > > package, [...] > > I recall reading in EE times about another freely available tool chain > that was quite useful for small projects. I can dig up a reference if > you'd like. I don't recall it being specifically named as "gnu" > anything, so I think its a different toolchain from what you're > describing. One of the important parts of any tool like this is a good parts library. I now have gschem up and running and it has LOTS of the things that are important. My trial run with it is going to be the schematic for the 8088-based SBC I posted about a few weeks ago. I have the printed schematic from the manual for that, but it's very coarse and I want an editable/revisable version anyway. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Dec 29 16:41:39 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:41:39 -0800 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051229222042.2478FBA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20051229222042.2478FBA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200512291441.40178.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 29 December 2005 14:20, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm looking to get a nice IBM Selectric typewriter - for typewriter, > not computer console, use. Not too picky as to typeball etc., but > if someone wants to tell me what to look for and what to avoid, I'm > all ears. > In the past I've used both Selectric II's and III's and can't > say I prefer one over the other. I am looking to keep it for many > years with only light to moderate use so reliability/parts availability > is somewhat important. > Anyone want to recommend a US (or Washington DC) area dealer who > stands above the rest? Or should I just take my chances on E-pay? > There's a shop* in Los Altos, CA that sells IBM Selectric typewriters. Really. As a member of the Computer History Museum PDP-1 restoration team, I used them a few months ago to restore the non-electronic mechanicals of the IBM type "B" typewriter which is the console for the PDP-1. The 1620 restoration team also used them to restore the console of the 1620. Here's their full address: *Los Altos Typewriter, Moody Business Machines, 300 State Street, Los Altos, CA 94022. Phone: 650-948-0714 I also see Selectrics in various condition "pop up" at various local (SF Bay Area) brokers and scrappers fairly often. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 16:41:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:41:55 -0800 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <20051229171210.236126b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> <20051229171210.236126b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512291441550976.15C4C2D9@10.0.0.252> I'm not familiar with the SOL-20 keyboard. Is the output scan-code or ASCII? It's still possible to find some really nice Hall-effect ASCII keyboards on the surplus market. It wouldn't be "authentic", but it might work. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 16:42:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:42:16 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:35:35 -0500 "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 28 December 2005 08:09 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > My lot is fairly large (0.23 acres) and I have a huge area in the back > > > of the lot that is essentially "unused", where I could build > > > something. But for a public museum I'd rather not have it in the back > > > yard of my house, so I am considering purchasing some undeveloped land > > > in a cheaper part of the city. > > I wouldn't consider that size to be "fairly large" but then I'm thinking in > terms of "several acres", probably as rural as I can manage to get... > > > I am a collector, and consider myself somewhat of a conservator, > > but I don't personally have interest in maintaining a museum. > > Right now my storage system borders on being a disaster, in part > > because of a lack of organization and optimization of space. > > Sounds familiar. I have the larger of two "bedrooms" in a second floor > apartment with way too much stuff in it, stuff in the hallway, in front of > my bookshelves, and a 10x20 storage unit. > > > I have 3-4 spare acres here, though, and long term plans include > > putting down a cement slab out there and then a pole building. > > Insulation and heat eventually, so it can be a place to operate > > instead of just for storage. At present the second bedroom is > > completely crammed, my 'main labspace' room is so congested that > > I can't even get to the electronics bench..., I have to be very > > careful what I leave in the garage (unheated, somewhat unsealed > > against the elements) > > Euw. What would worry me more than anything else about not being completely > sealed is rodents, they can be very destructive. We've had a problem with > mice here in the house this year. > I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open media holes. I've recently thrown away an otherwise good Dell Optiplex Pentium III system because the mice set up housekeeping in it. There was a big obvious nest in it and signs that 'the little ones' were (im)properly raised as computer component enthusiasts. I still have a lot of systems out there but they're all carefully sealed. But I live surrounded by hundreds of acres of cornfields, and the mice converge on my garage every year when it gets cold. They've also chewed up ALL the power tool user manuals that I made the mistake of leaving in the workbench drawer. Sometimes if I'm out there and being quiet enough, the whole city of mice around me comes alive. > > I am at the point where it's time to post giveaways and > > real-cheap-sale items on eBay just to get rid of some of the > > excess, which isn't necessarily museum-grade stuff, but then... I > > don't necessarily subscribe to the 'ten year rule' (make that- I > > don't subscribe to it AT ALL in my personal collection. I have > > some things much older, and quite a bit of newer stuff that I > > like having, too. Usually things that don't get mentioned here > > because that isn't the focus of this list, but it belongs at > > least in this post. > > I hear ya! :-) > > > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. All those wonderful > > 8255, 6821 and Z80 peripheral chips, all the SRAM parts I have, > > etc. > > I have a bunch of that stuff on hand as well, plus 6502, 6510, 6522, 6526, > and some vic20- and c64-specific parts -- not because I have any particular > enthusiasm for those chips, but because I used to fix 'em. And a 6809, and > I think a z8001 somewhere. And then those 80xx microcontroller chips, and > probably others. > > > I'm now in the process of dipping my feet in the GnuEDA package, because I > > need a decent robust schematic capture program that isn't either an illegal > > 'evaluation' copy or a four figure investment. > > I downloaded that at one point and had subscribed to their user list but it > read too much like a developer's list to suit me, and I never did get around > to getting it installed and configured. > > > In it's recent incarnation built on NetBSD/i386 I am so far very impressed > > with Gschem. (I *like* the fact that I have the complete source for the > > entire setup. > > Yes. I like that sort of thing very much myself. :-) > > > Schematics I create are mine forever, etc. etc.) > > > > Housing my collection? It's a *disaster* but my wife puts up > > with it. She isn't even complaing loudly yet that I haven't > > moved the bandsaw she gave me for Christmas (she works at > > Menards) out of the living room yet. > > Heh. Sounds like you're definitely worse than I am! :-) > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 16:48:51 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:48:51 -0800 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051229222042.2478FBA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20051229222042.2478FBA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200512291448510568.15CB1A3D@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 5:20 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > Is there a more appropriate forum for asking about typewriters? Dunno, but Selectrics are very common and sometimes can be had for next to peanuts. The one in my office cost all of $7 at the local Goodwill store. Works fine for filling out forms. I've heard that the Selectric I is the poor cousin of the family, but I can't recall the reason. One of the problems with old Selectrics is eventually the neoprene drive belt deteriorates and breaks. I'm no Selectric repairman, but a peek inside a nice wide-carriage Selectric III that I've got stashed away looks like replacement of said belt is a major operation and probably not worth the trouble. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 16:58:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:58:15 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:41:22 -0600 Doc Shipley wrote: > ISTR somebody recently mentioned soldering battery leads to two legs > of a Dallas CMOS clock chip. Does that ring any bells? > The method for installing a battery on a Sun NVRAM module is well established and can be searched. I've done that one on numerous occasions. I think the Dallas chips are laid out entirely differently. Probably someone should dissect one with a dremel tool and write a howto somewhere. It is a worthwhile project. The upper module is almost certainly sealed seperate from the chip itself, if it's like the Sun-type modules, there are contacts somewhere you can dremel in to and solder on an external battery lead. I have a pile of 'old' Pentium II and Pentium III motherboards in a box just waiting for me to desolder and save the Lithium battery sockets from. I plan to epoxy them on any further Sun NVRAM modules I 'upgrade' (and there are quite a few here that still need that) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 16:57:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:57:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 29, 5 03:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I have > some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I haven't had much luck > finding one so far... That number seems familiar fro some odd reason. I think it's some kind of DRAM controller, but I've not founf the data sheet yet. -tony From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 17:13:41 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:13:41 +0000 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640512291513p181d7685v@mail.gmail.com> On 29/12/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > Hi All, > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > formatted. > > What have I done wrong? > > Thanks > > Jim. > > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > > Simh for Linux or Windows ? Dan From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Dec 29 17:16:49 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:16:49 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200512291441550976.15C4C2D9@10.0.0.252> References: <200512281659370067.111C7409@10.0.0.252> <20051229171210.236126b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291441550976.15C4C2D9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B46E61.8090202@jcwren.com> It's ASCII, but with a couple extra signals for reset and "local". There are a couple extended keycodes (>= 0x80) for load, mode select, the arrow keys, home cursor, and clear. It would be very easy to add a keymapping table to my KeyMapper project so that a PS/2 keyboard could be used. It might even be possible to find a keyboard that would fit into the cut-out, with a little creative work. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >I'm not familiar with the SOL-20 keyboard. Is the output scan-code or >ASCII? > >It's still possible to find some really nice Hall-effect ASCII keyboards on >the surplus market. It wouldn't be "authentic", but it might work. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 17:18:32 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:18:32 -0800 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 5:58 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >The method for installing a battery on a Sun NVRAM module is well >established and can be searched. I've done that one on numerous >occasions. I think the Dallas chips are laid out entirely >differently. Probably someone should dissect one with a dremel >tool and write a howto somewhere. It is a worthwhile project. >The upper module is almost certainly sealed seperate from the >chip itself, if it's like the Sun-type modules, there are >contacts somewhere you can dremel in to and solder on an external >battery lead. I can see where digging into the clock chip for a Sun might be worthwhile as replacements are hard to come by, but the DS1287 used in the Compaq (and a lot of PCs) is relatively inexpensive and readily available. It's robably not worth the trouble digging into the EDIP to find where to hook the battery up. If an external battery is desired, you could just take a DS1285, which is essentially the 1287 without the battery and hook a coin cell between pin 20 and ground. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 17:15:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:15:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <43B455DB.1090200@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Dec 29, 5 02:32:11 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >[1] Note for the uninitiated. The IBM serial card has 2 odd features that > >were not present in most, if not all, clones. The first is that it can > >pull pin B8 (IIRS) low during I/O reads, needed if the card is used in > >slot 8 of the IBM PC/XT. The second is that it has a current loop > >interface as well as RS232 . > > > > > > > Does any of the newer serial cards have the current loop option? I believe there have been current loop cards for PCs (the current loop interface was used industrially, and no I am not thinking of the _analogue_ current loop used for industrial sensors)). But I've not seen a combined RS232 and current loop card for a PC other than the original IBM one. > Was it only TTY's that used the current loop? Oh no. A lot of serial terminals did (DECwriters, HP terminals, etc. IIRC the serial interface for the HP9825 series could do current loop (maybe the one for the 80 series to). Somewhere I have a couple of control interfaces that are current loop on the host side. I am alos pretty sure I've seem a modem with a current loop interface on it. And of course most minicomputers had current loop interfaces (if only to link to teletypes). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 17:23:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:23:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 29, 5 05:30:20 pm Message-ID: > > I only recently heard about people specializing in collecting > > individual chips rather than whole systems. It makes perfect sense > > from a collecting perspective now that I've heard of it, but I'd never > > considered the idea myself. Do you purposefully look for specific > > chips? Are you satisfied in removing them from shipping systems or do > > you try to find "virgin" chips in their shipping tubes? > > > > I don't 'collect' chips so much as I accumulate them. I recently Me too... I have no interest in becoming a 'stamp collector' and going over-the-moon because I've got an EPROM in a purple ceramic package or whatever. I do accumulate any old chips that are no longer available that I can find. A frienf gave ne a large carrier bag of obscure TTL, for example -- things like the BCD-Binary conversion ROMs, ALUs, etc. I use said chips for repairs, homebrewing, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 17:25:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:25:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512291448510568.15CB1A3D@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 29, 5 02:48:51 pm Message-ID: > One of the problems with old Selectrics is eventually the neoprene drive > belt deteriorates and breaks. I'm no Selectric repairman, but a peek > inside a nice wide-carriage Selectric III that I've got stashed away looks > like replacement of said belt is a major operation and probably not worth > the trouble. I have never seen inside a Selectric, but I've heard that to change one of the belts you have to remove the main shaft, which is a major operation. I was told that if you do this, slip 2 belts over the shaft and tape one to the side of the chassis out of the way. Next time it breaks, work that spare one onto the pulleys. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 17:29:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:29:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <20051229171210.236126b8.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Dec 29, 5 05:12:10 pm Message-ID: > Also, it could turn into a scene of enthusiasts for one type of > machine butchering the last extant keyboard for some other > hard-to-find machine for these components. This is another problem. And even though I am a PERQ-fanatic and would do almost anything to keep my PERQs running, I really don't want to have to ruin another rare machine to do so (now a PC clone keyboard is another matter...) To tie in to the collecting-ICs thread, the current issue of Elektor (at least in the UK) has a meniton of rare ICs and the fact that some people collect them. It also says they don't know of any major commercial unit that contained the 8008. Many of us here, I am sure, know of such a device, but I am not going to write in to tell them because I'd rather those machines carried on computing _with a working frontpanel_. > > Someone needs to come up with a solution using current available > materials. Agreed... -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 17:31:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:31:35 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051229183135.1354da35.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:18:32 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/29/2005 at 5:58 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >The method for installing a battery on a Sun NVRAM module is well > >established and can be searched. I've done that one on numerous > >occasions. I think the Dallas chips are laid out entirely > >differently. Probably someone should dissect one with a dremel > >tool and write a howto somewhere. It is a worthwhile project. > >The upper module is almost certainly sealed seperate from the > >chip itself, if it's like the Sun-type modules, there are > >contacts somewhere you can dremel in to and solder on an external > >battery lead. > > I can see where digging into the clock chip for a Sun might be worthwhile > as replacements are hard to come by, but the DS1287 used in the Compaq (and > a lot of PCs) is relatively inexpensive and readily available. It's robably > not worth the trouble digging into the EDIP to find where to hook the > battery up. > Some of us are just more stubborn and cheap (and whatnot else) than others. I like solutions that I know I will be able to use for the next 25 years. I don't know how long Dallas will continue to make the DS1285. And I have encountered motherboards where the CMOS module is SOLDERED ON THE MOTHERBOARD (*yikes*). > If an external battery is desired, you could just take a DS1285, which is > essentially the 1287 without the battery and hook a coin cell between pin > 20 and ground. > That makes sense. Ideally the original module belongs 'tied with string in a cloth bag within the housing' as was discussed here awhile back, to preserve the authenticity of the original system. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 29 17:32:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:32:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Microwriter hard reset? Message-ID: Does anyone have a user manual for a Microwriter MW4 chording keyboard-thing? If so, is there a procedure given to do a hard reset if the batteries have gone totally flat and you've recharged them? I have one of these devices which I am currently running off my bench supply (4.8V) in place of the NiCd. It seems to power up OK, and you can type exactly 8 characters befroe it locks up. Before I start testing the processor (1802), RAM (6116s), etc, I wondered if it was simply not initialised correctly and I needed to do some kind of hard reset. -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 29 13:27:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:27:24 +0000 Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: References: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Dec 29, 5 03:59:39 pm Message-ID: <20051229233404.YMZW15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I have > > some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I haven't had much luck > > finding one so far... > > That number seems familiar fro some odd reason. I think it's some kind of > DRAM controller, but I've not founf the data sheet yet. DP8409 is a DRAM controller (and a honkin big 48 pin DIP too)! I just rummaged through my desk and found a printed data sheet for it - If no other source is found, I can can scan it. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 17:33:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:33:55 -0500 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: <26c11a640512291513p181d7685v@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <26c11a640512291513p181d7685v@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051229183355.38536b57.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:13:41 +0000 Dan Williams wrote: > On 29/12/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > > formatted. > > > > What have I done wrong? > > > > Thanks > > > > Jim. > > > > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > > > > > > Simh for Linux or Windows ? > > Dan > (or, possibly, SimH running on the NetBSD 2.0 running on the virtual host?) ((or do you run BOCHS on the NetBSD, then Windows on the BOCHS before running the Windows SimH?) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 17:37:55 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:37:55 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:41:39 -0800. <200512291441.40178.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200512291441.40178.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > There's a shop* in Los Altos, CA that sells IBM Selectric typewriters. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 17:38:49 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:42:16 -0500. <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've > learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card > brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open > media holes. [...] This reminds me of an Apple ][ that was brought in for repair... these didn't have any real barrier in the back of the case where the slots were. Inside was a mouse nest :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 29 17:39:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:39:39 -0600 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/29/2005 at 5:58 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >>The method for installing a battery on a Sun NVRAM module is well >>established and can be searched. I've done that one on numerous >>occasions. I think the Dallas chips are laid out entirely >>differently. Probably someone should dissect one with a dremel >>tool and write a howto somewhere. It is a worthwhile project. >>The upper module is almost certainly sealed seperate from the >>chip itself, if it's like the Sun-type modules, there are >>contacts somewhere you can dremel in to and solder on an external >>battery lead. > > > I can see where digging into the clock chip for a Sun might be worthwhile > as replacements are hard to come by, but the DS1287 used in the Compaq (and > a lot of PCs) is relatively inexpensive and readily available. It's robably > not worth the trouble digging into the EDIP to find where to hook the > battery up. > > If an external battery is desired, you could just take a DS1285, which is > essentially the 1287 without the battery and hook a coin cell between pin > 20 and ground. Except the DS1285 is nearly as expensive as a DS12887.... I picked up a DS12887 from Maxim (nee Dallas) for $6 + S&H. Thanks for the pointers, y'all. I don't really collect PCs, but that SLT/286 has some sentimental significance. It's worth a couple of bucks and some solder time. ObFunny: When I was looking around at prices, I did find a site selling DS1287 modules. *Used* DS1287 modules. Doc From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 29 13:36:05 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:36:05 +0000 Subject: 8088 project (was: Housing collections) In-Reply-To: <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > > > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > > > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > > > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. > > > > Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? > > http://sasteven.multics.org/8088page.html > > (it has gone dormant at the moment) I just took a quick look at the page, and I have some tools which might be of use. I have an 8086/8088 monitor, which provides edit/dump memory/registers, serial download, breakpoints, single-step, disassembly and lots of other goodies in just over 4K of code space - completely independant of hardware (ie: No DOS/BIOS requirements). I also have a PC based 8086/808 cross assembler intended for the "bare metal" which produces downloadable code. Both of the above I would be willing to make available to your project. I also have a "bare metal" C compiler/development package for the 8086/8088 which I'm not quite ready to give away yet (still selling it), but if you get the project "un-dormant", we can perhaps make some arrangement. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Dec 29 18:51:52 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:51:52 -0600 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) References: <200512282211.jBSMBi2s002980@onyx.spiritone.com><1135829830.7886.17.camel@linux.site><001b01c60c32$89c9f510$2fcfbd41@game> Message-ID: <006c01c60cdc$bedbc490$33406b43@66067007> I second that, storage eats my lunch and more. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 1:13 AM Subject: Re: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) > At 11:44 PM -0500 12/28/05, Teo Zenios wrote: >>You guys sound like you spend a mint on just storing the collection. Out >>of >>curiosity what is the most expensive part of the hobby (acquiring, >>shipping, >>electricity, storage, upgrading&refurbishing, etc)? > > Storage, the rest are short-term costs, but storage just keeps haunting > you :^( > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From allain at panix.com Thu Dec 29 19:17:35 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:17:35 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? References: Message-ID: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I'm no Selectric repairman, but a peek inside a nice > wide-carriage Selectric III that I've got stashed away looks > like replacement of said belt is a major operation and probably > not worth the trouble. You know the entire outer shell drops away with two lever pulls, right? I've removed the main drive engine from a Selectric (where the belt passes) and would say it's worth the effort (not much effort) compared to the incomprehensible geometry of it's lever upon lever system for translating key to typehead. Aside: someday I would like to hear said system described by someone. I've found it fascinating. John A. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Dec 29 19:21:33 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 17:21:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: The future of our hobby (legacy semiconductor manufacturers) In-Reply-To: <43B42D29.2050903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20051230012133.7294.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > PS Anybody have a list of NEEDED IC's > re-manufactured for old computers? Besides the many dealers that maintain stocks of NOS discontinued components, I know of two companies that license discontinued product lines and will custom manufacture them: Lansdale Semiconductor www.lansdale.com Rochester Electronics www.rocelec.com Lansdale, at least, appears to use a mix of die made on other vendor's lines and in their own fab. These outfits cater to the government and the military, and I'm sure that the prices are prohibitive for hobby purposes. They do claim to supply the regular distributor channels, so they presumably must be making some parts as part of a standard product line, but I've never inquired as to price or availability. --Bill From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Dec 29 19:35:39 2005 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:35:39 -0600 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/29/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > Hi All, > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > formatted. > > What have I done wrong? You haven't done anything wrong -- SIMH doesn't provide any kind of emulation other than straight TTY for its console window. I've run Open VMS in Simh/VAX and have the same issue. You'll likely just have to read around the control codes, and later use a telnet client to get reasonable output, once the OS is installed. -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 19:34:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:34:53 -0500 Subject: 8088 project (was: Housing collections) In-Reply-To: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051229203453.47465b16.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:36:05 +0000 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > > > I'm a hardware person, and what I really want to focus more time > > > > on is using some of the 'classic' silicon I have accumulated. > > > > Z80 sbcs (real Z80, not the new clones and ASIC things) and the > > > > Intel 8088 project that I've half completed. > > > > > > Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? > > > > http://sasteven.multics.org/8088page.html > > > > (it has gone dormant at the moment) > > I just took a quick look at the page, and I have some tools which might be > of use. > > I have an 8086/8088 monitor, which provides edit/dump memory/registers, > serial download, breakpoints, single-step, disassembly and lots of other > goodies in just over 4K of code space - completely independant of hardware > (ie: No DOS/BIOS requirements). > That's exactly the kind of firmware I want for the 8088 SBC project, at least to start. Does your monitor use a serial console? I need to add a serial port to the design. Possibly using the 6402 UART. Really, though, one of the 'design principles' of the projet is to re-use, so maybe a part from the 8250 family (which can be found on any old PC-clone serial card) would be easier for someone replicating the design to come up with. Awhile back I 'won' a whole tube of 85C30 parts from someone selling them on eBay, but they never showed up. And I am trying to stick to DIP packages to keep it easy to build with OTS parts. Or I could stick a primative ISA slot on it and plug in one of my spare IBM Serial Adapters and use the current loop interface. (naw... heh.) I have fond memories of monitor-based systems from the past. I have a first generation BigBoard in mothballs, for one example. It used to boot CP/M from the monitor prompt. > I also have a PC based 8086/808 cross assembler intended for the "bare > metal" which produces downloadable code. I've noticed the full line of cross-assemblers for all sorts of processors on the website linked at the bottom of your messages (and I think I remember, going way back, your ad in magazines like Circuit Cellar.) Really what has been the 'missing link' in the 8088 sbc project has been an assembler designed like yours. There are many MANY tools available and many websites dedicated to x86 assembly programming, but it's almost all oriented toward a BIOS-based PC system. I come from a 'bare metal' and prefer starting right at the bottom from a reset vector. At one point I had the 'dream' of a monitor rom to drop in place on PC-XT motherboards to turn them into Single Board Computers. But these days an Xt motherboard is a scarce commodity, while there are still plenty of 8088 processors available. (And keeping the design 'generic' the next generation can be an 8086 based system, with 16 bit data path.) > > Both of the above I would be willing to make available to your project. > > I also have a "bare metal" C compiler/development package for the 8086/8088 > which I'm not quite ready to give away yet (still selling it), but if you get the > project "un-dormant", we can perhaps make some arrangement. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 19:51:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:51:06 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051229205106.43ad64ca.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:38:49 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel at earthlink.net>, > Scott Stevens writes: > > > I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've > > learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card > > brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open > > media holes. [...] > > This reminds me of an Apple ][ that was brought in for repair... these > didn't have any real barrier in the back of the case where the slots > were. > > Inside was a mouse nest :-) I worked for a business once where a whole bunch of the operating PCs on the network got infested by mice. It's nearly the perfect environment for a mouse house. A decent amount of heat being generated, small secure openings to get in and out.... Let's just say that mouse urine and the copper traces on circuit cards don't coexist very well. I'm pretty sure a friend of mine used the ISA slot section bandsawed out of one of those systems as a passive backplane in one of his homebuild PCs. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 20:20:43 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:20:43 -0700 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:51:52 -0600. <006c01c60cdc$bedbc490$33406b43@66067007> Message-ID: In article <006c01c60cdc$bedbc490$33406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > I second that, storage eats my lunch and more. This is why my friend was interested in purchasing a space instead of leasing one -- as the owner of the mortgage, you get that interest tax deduction. However, he is in the lucky financial position of being able to afford such a proposition. Me, I could afford the vacant lot, but probably not an existing structure, which is why I was considering an alternative housing style construction (Dennis Weaver "Earthship" style) to keep the construction costs low and give an additional novelty aspect to the building. With some alternative construction techniques the build cost can be as low as $15K. Additionally, it may be helpful to form a 501(c)3 as the entity through which you manage your collection if you're going to go to the whole trouble of purchasing land or creating structures to house it. That changes the tax situation dramatically and suddenly you can apply for grants from places like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for historic preservation funds :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 20:28:27 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:28:27 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals Message-ID: Does anyone have one? They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 29 20:27:20 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:27:20 -0600 Subject: VMS internals Message-ID: <20051230022850.FSHU12654.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Does anyone know of a good on-line reference to VMS internals. I'm not looking for anything too in-depth. At the moment, I'm mostly looking for something along the lines of "here are the major components and how they fit together." I've got most of an orange wall and a copy of the old software handbook, but I'm not finding anything like that there. I know about the VMS Internals and Data Structures book and if I have to I'll find a copy, but I'm not really looking for something that detailed anyway. Thanks in advance, Brian L. Stuart From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 20:54:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:54:25 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512291854250435.16ABE996@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 7:28 PM Richard wrote: >They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, >making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I >haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! I used to have a couple of early-to-mid 1970's era Beehive terminals. Quality of construction was actually pretty high--wonderful keyboard. 8008-based "smart" editing terminals. Beehive had several terminal models. I didn't care for the later VT-100/VT-220 compatible boxes; IIRC, they were pretty buggy. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 29 21:03:38 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:03:38 -0800 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: <20051230022850.FSHU12654.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> References: <20051230022850.FSHU12654.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Message-ID: At 8:27 PM -0600 12/29/05, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >Does anyone know of a good on-line reference to VMS internals. >I'm not looking for anything too in-depth. At the moment, I'm >mostly looking for something along the lines of "here are the >major components and how they fit together." I've got most >of an orange wall and a copy of the old software handbook, >but I'm not finding anything like that there. I know about >the VMS Internals and Data Structures book and if I have to >I'll find a copy, but I'm not really looking for something >that detailed anyway. > >Thanks in advance, >Brian L. Stuart As far as I know, there isn't anything online. The books that come to mind are the following (in other words they're on my shelf): VMS Internals and Data Structures VAX/VMS Operating System Concepts VMS File System Internals VAXcluster Principles I think the Operating System Concepts might be what you're looking at, it was updated in '97 as "OpenVMS Operating System Concepts" (unfortunately I don't have a copy of the 2nd Ed.). Last I checked, it's very difficult to get the last two books, it took me several years to get my copies. But then getting copies of the latest I&DS books aren't exactly easy :^( Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Dec 29 21:04:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:04:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Additionally, it may be helpful to form a 501(c)3 as the entity > through which you manage your collection if you're going to go to the > whole trouble of purchasing land or creating structures to house it. > That changes the tax situation dramatically and suddenly you can apply > for grants from places like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for > historic preservation funds :-). The tax situation also changes drastically with the IRS men at your door. Turning a personal collection into an 501c3 is just begging for an audit. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 21:07:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:07:00 -0800 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <20051229183135.1354da35.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <20051229183135.1354da35.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512291907000839.16B7705A@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 6:31 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >Some of us are just more stubborn and cheap (and whatnot else) >than others. I like solutions that I know I will be able to use >for the next 25 years. I don't know how long Dallas will >continue to make the DS1285. And I have encountered motherboards >where the CMOS module is SOLDERED ON THE MOTHERBOARD (*yikes*). Scott, the Compaq SLT 286 is one of those. :) (and of course, on modern mobos, the CMOS and clock is buried somewhere on a corner of one of the support chips, which is soldered in). If you're really bored, you can try digging into a DS1287, like this guy: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dsavel/ds1287e.htm Suprise, suprise, he found a 1285 inside! Another alternative is to use an MC 146818A and external battery and resonator. Cheers, Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Dec 29 21:09:30 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:09:30 -0600 Subject: VMS internals References: <20051230022850.FSHU12654.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> Message-ID: <015e01c60cee$797eca20$33406b43@66067007> I have the VMS General User's Manual, VMS Ver 5.0 April 1988 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:03 PM Subject: Re: VMS internals > At 8:27 PM -0600 12/29/05, Brian L. Stuart wrote: >>Does anyone know of a good on-line reference to VMS internals. >>I'm not looking for anything too in-depth. At the moment, I'm >>mostly looking for something along the lines of "here are the >>major components and how they fit together." I've got most >>of an orange wall and a copy of the old software handbook, >>but I'm not finding anything like that there. I know about >>the VMS Internals and Data Structures book and if I have to >>I'll find a copy, but I'm not really looking for something >>that detailed anyway. >> >>Thanks in advance, >>Brian L. Stuart > > As far as I know, there isn't anything online. > > The books that come to mind are the following (in other words they're on > my shelf): > VMS Internals and Data Structures > VAX/VMS Operating System Concepts > VMS File System Internals > VAXcluster Principles > > I think the Operating System Concepts might be what you're looking at, it > was updated in '97 as "OpenVMS Operating System Concepts" (unfortunately I > don't have a copy of the 2nd Ed.). Last I checked, it's very difficult to > get the last two books, it took me several years to get my copies. But > then getting copies of the latest I&DS books aren't exactly easy :^( > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 21:11:55 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:11:55 -0800 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 8:17 PM John Allain wrote: >You know the entire outer shell drops away with two lever pulls, right? Yup, I've been that far. >I've removed the main drive engine from a Selectric (where the >belt passes) and would say it's worth the effort (not much effort) >compared to the incomprehensible geometry of it's lever upon >lever system for translating key to typehead. Aside: someday >I would like to hear said system described by someone. I've >found it fascinating. It's that part about pulling the driveshaft that scares me. I think of all of those little springs that are just waiting to go off if I make one false move and I break out in a cold sweat. Maybe if I had a step-by-step list of instructions, I wouldn't be so shy. Belts aren't expensive at all. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 29 21:16:52 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:16:52 -0800 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: <015e01c60cee$797eca20$33406b43@66067007> References: <20051230022850.FSHU12654.ibm67aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> <015e01c60cee$797eca20$33406b43@66067007> Message-ID: At 9:09 PM -0600 12/29/05, Keys wrote: >I have the VMS General User's Manual, VMS Ver 5.0 April 1988 That and the "System Managers Manual" are still two of the most useful VMS books ever published as far as I'm concerned. I still use the V5.x "System Managers Manual", and have the entire set of six books that make up the basic V5 set here at home, while all the rest of my Grey wall, as well as V6.x and V7.2 manuals are in storage. But, these books don't have anything to do with VMS internals. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From news at computercollector.com Thu Dec 29 22:12:20 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:12:20 -0500 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c60cf7$3be9eec0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> Additionally, it may be helpful to form a 501(c)3 as the entity through which you manage your collection if you're going to go to the whole trouble of purchasing land or creating structures to house it. That changes the tax situation dramatically To me that sounds as lousy as thing to do as parking in a handicap space. Yes, technically a person's collection is not for making a profit, but that hardly makes anyone a "non-profit" in the legal sense. Non-profit / 501(c)3 status is for actual organizations that deserve a tax break because they do good for their communities. Just because someone's collection is not for commercial gain is irrelevant -- why does an individual collector * deserve * a tax break? He doesn't. If you buy land for any reason except a legitimate non-profit, then pay your taxes on it. Tax fraud is a pretty serious crime. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 9:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In article <006c01c60cdc$bedbc490$33406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > I second that, storage eats my lunch and more. This is why my friend was interested in purchasing a space instead of leasing one -- as the owner of the mortgage, you get that interest tax deduction. However, he is in the lucky financial position of being able to afford such a proposition. Me, I could afford the vacant lot, but probably not an existing structure, which is why I was considering an alternative housing style construction (Dennis Weaver "Earthship" style) to keep the construction costs low and give an additional novelty aspect to the building. With some alternative construction techniques the build cost can be as low as $15K. Additionally, it may be helpful to form a 501(c)3 as the entity through which you manage your collection if you're going to go to the whole trouble of purchasing land or creating structures to house it. That changes the tax situation dramatically and suddenly you can apply for grants from places like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for historic preservation funds :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Dec 29 22:34:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:34:10 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:11:55 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/29/2005 at 8:17 PM John Allain wrote: > > >You know the entire outer shell drops away with two lever pulls, right? > > Yup, I've been that far. > > >I've removed the main drive engine from a Selectric (where the > >belt passes) and would say it's worth the effort (not much effort) > >compared to the incomprehensible geometry of it's lever upon > >lever system for translating key to typehead. Aside: someday > >I would like to hear said system described by someone. I've > >found it fascinating. > > It's that part about pulling the driveshaft that scares me. I think of all > of those little springs that are just waiting to go off if I make one false > move and I break out in a cold sweat. Maybe if I had a step-by-step list > of instructions, I wouldn't be so shy. Belts aren't expensive at all. > And these days, Selectrics aren't expensive either. It's a sad state of affairs, because I remember how much I admired and wanted one of those expensive things back when I was young. At an auction I went to within the last year I bought one, I believe for $3 or so. The other people at the auction acted like I was nuts for wanting it (the same way they always get when I buy computers-that-can't-possibly-run-Windows-XP.) The only competition in the bidding for choice items on that table (a table full of typewriters) was for a few of the newest electronic typewriter/word processor machines. There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that many people no longer experience. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:35:21 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:35:21 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:54:25 -0800. <200512291854250435.16ABE996@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512291854250435.16ABE996 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 12/29/2005 at 7:28 PM Richard wrote: > > >They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, > >making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I > >haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! > > I used to have a couple of early-to-mid 1970's era Beehive terminals. Any chance you have pictures of them? I haven't even been able to find any pictures of some of the models we used at UDel. > Quality of construction was actually pretty high--wonderful keyboard. > 8008-based "smart" editing terminals. Maybe I was being a little harsh :-) ... a colleague mentioned something like the capacitors always dying and needing to be replaced. I can't recall the specifics. I do recall that when the terminal room heated up in the summer time, the character memory RAM would start flipping bits randomly causing your screen to corrupt over an editing session. We all learned quickly how to rapidly execute the key sequence that would i) take the terminal into local mode, ii) clear the screen, iii) bring the terminal back online and iv) issue a command to the editor to refresh the buffer. > Beehive had several terminal models. I didn't care for the later > VT-100/VT-220 compatible boxes; IIRC, they were pretty buggy. The ones we used would have been around 1978-1980 and they were most definately not VT-anything compatible. I remember the detachable keyboard on one of the models had a cable that seemed as thick as a DEC RL01 disk drive cable or 5-line keyset phone cable of the period, although much more flexible than either of those :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:37:59 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:37:59 -0700 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:16:52 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 9:09 PM -0600 12/29/05, Keys wrote: > >I have the VMS General User's Manual, VMS Ver 5.0 April 1988 > > That and the "System Managers Manual" are still two of the most > useful VMS books ever published as far as I'm concerned. [...] I was recently gifted a VAXserver 4000/300, presumably running VMS. I've just purchased some MMJ cabling from ebay, so soon I will be booting this boy up. The system came with no docs at all, unfortunately. My 11/03 has a complete provenance from the original owner to me :). However, I've never used VMS. Does anyone have a spare set of VMS documentation they'd be willing to donate/sell? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:39:36 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:39:36 -0700 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:04:32 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Additionally, it may be helpful to form a 501(c)3 as the entity > > through which you manage your collection if you're going to go to the > > whole trouble of purchasing land or creating structures to house it. > > That changes the tax situation dramatically and suddenly you can apply > > for grants from places like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation for > > historic preservation funds :-). > > The tax situation also changes drastically with the IRS men at your > door. Turning a personal collection into an 501c3 is just begging for an > audit. Not if you're going to the trouble of purchasing/building a structure for public exhibition as a museum. Of course, at that point its not really your "personal" collection anymore. You also can't form a 501(c)3 corporation by yourself. Yes, forming a non-profit to hide the expenses of the collection in your basement is probably not going to pass the inspection of an audit. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 29 22:43:30 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:43:30 -0800 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:37 PM -0700 12/29/05, Richard wrote: >However, I've never used VMS. Does anyone have a spare set of VMS >documentation they'd be willing to donate/sell? http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:45:08 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:45:08 -0700 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:12:20 -0500. <000801c60cf7$3be9eec0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <000801c60cf7$3be9eec0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > To me that sounds as lousy as thing to do as parking in a handicap space. Apparently you've only jumped in at the end here and haven't been reading all of my posts on this thread. Go back and read them again and you'll see that I've been talking of purchasing land/buildings in the pursuit of making a public museum. This is most certainly not tax fraud and I'm not licensing my museum under GPL either :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Dec 29 22:51:32 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:51:32 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B4BCD4.1020106@theriver.com> I have two ADM 33A's and both work nicely. I think they are circa 1976-1977. Richard wrote: >Does anyone have one? > >They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, >making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I >haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:47:15 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:47:15 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 23:34:10 -0500. <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using > a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into > an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely > to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page > of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that > many people no longer experience. Hear, hear! Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something else and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and bang it out in a few seconds than it is to turn on the computer, launch the editor, type in the text, turn on the printer, print it out, and then power everything off again. With the typewriter, its click, whizz whizz whizz (rolling the paper into place), tappety tappety tap, whizz whizz whizz, click, done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:48:14 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:48:14 -0700 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:43:30 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 9:37 PM -0700 12/29/05, Richard wrote: > >However, I've never used VMS. Does anyone have a spare set of VMS > >documentation they'd be willing to donate/sell? > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ Awesome, thanks! I admit I'm having a devil of a time finding the right information in the labyrinth of hp/compaq web servers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 29 22:50:18 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:50:18 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:51:32 -0700. <43B4BCD4.1020106@theriver.com> Message-ID: In article <43B4BCD4.1020106 at theriver.com>, tom ponsford writes: > I have two ADM 33A's and both work nicely. I think they are circa 1976-1977. Yes, and plenty of DEC terminals have survived from that time period. However, Beehive was not a small, incidental manufacturer of terminals yet I haven't seen a functioning Beehive terminal since 1980. I've been living in SLC since January 5th, 1988 and I haven't seen a *single* one in all that time! You'd think since they were manufactured here that there would be more likelihood of them showing up in the area, but not a single one have I spotted. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 23:14:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:14:25 -0800 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512292114250588.172C165A@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 11:34 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using >a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into >an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely >to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page >of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that >many people no longer experience. A friend of mine resells IBM Wheelwriters (gets a couple of hundred the each, depending on condition). I could never stand the the things--press a key and there's a variable delay between when you hit the key and when the print hammer goes "chunk". The sensation reminds me of playing in an antiphonal brass choir in a large church. You have to time your playing visually by the director's baton--if you try to play by what you hear, the result is a mess because of the time it takes the sound from the other players to reach your ears. So you have to tune one of your senses out. Give me a Selectric (or even an Executive) any day. Did someone mention IBM 1620's using Selectrics? The only 1620's I ever saw used the traditional typewriter mechanism. OTOH, the 1130 used the Selectric mechanism. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 29 23:22:51 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:22:51 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512292122510380.1733CE16@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 9:35 PM Richard wrote: >Any chance you have pictures of them? I haven't even been able to >find any pictures of some of the models we used at UDel. No, but they sound about the same. Beige pebble-painted slab-sided cases with a sloping top (I think they were actually made of welded sheets of aluminum), detachable keyboard with a thick grey cable and some keys with little bi-pin lamps under them to indicate modes. Rotary control on a small black panel on the back to set the bitrate from 110-9600(?). Shift register memory and some 1702s for ROM. IIRC, end-of-line was something like 0x1f. Bronze-tinted sheet of plexiglass over the screen. Keys were light brown and the keyboard mask was dark brown. IIRC, the thing couldn't actually display and scroll at 9600, so handshaking at higher speeds was required. I still may have some code around that I used to drive one. I think I remember that you could fire off some combinations of codes that would cause them to hang. Cheers, Chuck From dan at ekoan.com Thu Dec 29 23:42:36 2005 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:42:36 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20051230004132.08631550@mail.marcal.com> I have a scanned photograph of a Beehive terminal, taken from a manual, at http://www.decodesystems.com/beehive-terminal.gif Cheers, Dan At 11:50 PM 12/29/05, you wrote: >In article <43B4BCD4.1020106 at theriver.com>, > tom ponsford writes: > > > I have two ADM 33A's and both work nicely. I think they are circa > 1976-1977. > >Yes, and plenty of DEC terminals have survived from that time period. >However, Beehive was not a small, incidental manufacturer of terminals >yet I haven't seen a functioning Beehive terminal since 1980. > >I've been living in SLC since January 5th, 1988 and I haven't seen a >*single* one in all that time! You'd think since they were >manufactured here that there would be more likelihood of them showing >up in the area, but not a single one have I spotted. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 29 23:42:05 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:42:05 -0800 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:48 PM -0700 12/29/05, Richard wrote: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ > >Awesome, thanks! I admit I'm having a devil of a time finding the >right information in the labyrinth of hp/compaq web servers. I know what you mean, I'm *just* finally starting to understand how to go direct to what I want. For example http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/ takes you to the main page, while http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/ takes you to the above URL. If all else fails, http://www.openvms.compaq.com still gets you to the main page (it's how I've been getting there). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Dec 29 23:49:50 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:49:50 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >In article <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel at earthlink.net>, > Scott Stevens writes: > > > There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using > > a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into > > an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely > > to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page > > of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that > > many people no longer experience. Thank goodness! >Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something else >and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and >bang it out in a few seconds... And then try to find an eraser to rub-out what you fscked up, grumble, never find the eraser, reload new paper, keep banging, realize you made another mistake... Ungh. Not to mention when you need to edit said document 2 years later, instead of retyping the whole thing in again. Typewriters are like cats - I have nothing against them as long as I don't have to have one. ;-) > than it is to turn on the computer, >launch the editor, type in the text, turn on the printer, print it >out, and then power everything off again. I turn on my trusty 20-year-old Tandy 200 (immediate), the printer's *always on* and does text, Postscript, PCL6, Diablo, and lord knows what else, bang on a keyboard *nearly* as good as a Selectric (I will admit they had a nice feel to 'em, prolly still why I like IBM Model 'M's ;-) including repairing mistakes, print the sucker out, and hand the copy to whomever needs it. Much faster than a typewriter *for me*. Typewriters are the reason I graduated high school typing "36 wpm" instead of the 110+ I could achieve on a computer - forgetting to set the double-space was my first mistake in the test, and the secretarial teacher dogged me on it. If she'd have overlooked that and took the next 6 _actual_ errors (most of which were due to differences in the keyboards between the Selectrics & a Tandy Model 4, which I used 90% of the time), at least the damn thing would've said 69wpm. Still not an actual meter of what I could do, but one helluva lot closer! Not counting stupid typoes, that number would've been 114. Obviously, that was back when they still called it "typing" instead of "keyboarding" which they call it now. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From news at computercollector.com Fri Dec 30 00:04:26 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:04:26 -0500 Subject: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002201c60d06$e4394080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Apparently you've only jumped in at the end here and haven't been reading all of my posts on this thread. Sorry. Your message about getting non-profit status said it was related to land and structures "as the entity through which you manage your collection"... Sounded like a personal-use situation. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 11:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Housing collections (was: other Utah collectors?) In article <000801c60cf7$3be9eec0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > To me that sounds as lousy as thing to do as parking in a handicap space. Apparently you've only jumped in at the end here and haven't been reading all of my posts on this thread. Go back and read them again and you'll see that I've been talking of purchasing land/buildings in the pursuit of making a public museum. This is most certainly not tax fraud and I'm not licensing my museum under GPL either :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 30 00:07:58 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:07:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200512300614.BAA01242@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something >> else and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a >> typewriter and bang it out in a few seconds than it is to [use the >> computer]. > I turn on my trusty 20-year-old Tandy 200 (immediate), the printer's > *always on* and does text, Postscript, PCL6, Diablo, and lord knows > what else, bang on a keyboard *nearly* as good as a Selectric [...] > including repairing mistakes, print the sucker out, and hand the copy > to whomever needs it. Much faster than a typewriter *for me*. Not, I daresay, when you have a paper form to fill out. Then you have all the registration issues of making sure each bit of text prints out in the correct place on the page to fall into its field on the form, without the benefit of being able to just adjust it on-screen until it fits. Unless you first go to the trouble of scanning the form, which significantly increases the time required - at least in my experience. And if the form involves carbon (or carbonless "carbon") copies, you _need_ a pressure-based writing device (pen, typewriter, impact printer of some kind, etc, but not the laser or inkjet I imagine any device that does PostScript or PCL6 is). Typewriters are not for everything. But for a job where it *is* the right answer, there's very little else that will do. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From news at computercollector.com Fri Dec 30 00:28:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:28:04 -0500 Subject: 2006 Guide to Computer Museums... Message-ID: <002401c60d0a$31a419f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Some news related to this current thread on "housing collections" -- I'm currently preparing the 2006 edition of the Computer Collector Newsletter's Guide to Computer Museums. The 2005 edition sold out back in the fall. The guide should be ready within a month or so from now. It will be more substantial than last year's edition, but will still cost just a few dollars (to cover my time invested and the actual publishing.) Please contact me OFF LIST if you're aware of any small local museums that haven't been previously publicized (even ones that are just under construction or in the planning stages.) Thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 30 00:16:30 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:16:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512292114250588.172C165A@10.0.0.252> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512292114250588.172C165A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512300627.BAA01287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I could never stand the the things [IBM Wheelwriters]--press a key > and there's a variable delay between when you hit the key and when > the print hammer goes "chunk". Interesting. I don't think that would bother me; my typing is so heavily pipelined already that that feedback is not important. My own estimate is that, depending on various factors, the pipeline between my mind and my fingertips can be as large as a half-dozen keystrokes; add in the delay between my eyes seeing something (or my ears hearing it, or my fingers feeling it, or whatever) and whatever mental process is generating the keystrokes reacting, and it's more like 20 keystrokes between making a mistake and the pipe being fully flushed so that fixing it is possible. (Rather annoying when it comes to fixing mistakes.) Instant feedback is not only not necessary, it's not even really possible, because of that pipeline between mind and fingertips. Indeed, I've been known to type significant amounts almost completely open-loop. This paragraph, for example, I got two lines into before the display got past "Indee". (This is mostly because of quadratic behaviour in some screen updating code; someday I may have another crack at improving it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 00:47:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:47:57 -0800 Subject: 8088 project (was: Housing collections) In-Reply-To: <20051229203453.47465b16.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051229203453.47465b16.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512292247570158.1781B61D@10.0.0.252> On 12/29/2005 at 8:34 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >And I am trying to stick to DIP packages to keep it easy to build with OTS >parts. Or I could stick a primative ISA slot on it and plug in >one of my spare IBM Serial Adapters and use the current loop >interface. (naw... heh.) That reminds me of something I was wondering about. I've got one of those HD64180's in the DIP package with the pins on 0.050" centers. Does anyone know of a socket that will let me use this thing on 0.100" center proto board? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 01:05:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:05:28 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B4DC38.9040604@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using > a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into > an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely > to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page > of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that > many people no longer experience. The experience is what you make of it; 50 years ago, people would have said the same thing about writing longhand was the 'real' experience, and that typing made you think too quickly. That being said, I do understand your point of view and share it. For me in grade school, working with my first word processor (Apple II easywriter, I think) was the same thing -- I (slowly) typed, and my thoughts appeared realtime on the screen, which I hadn't "gotten" until then. This could turn into a whole new topic in and of itself, so I'll stop my rambling :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 30 01:48:32 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 02:48:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512300627.BAA01287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Dec 30, 2005 01:16:30 AM Message-ID: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > Indeed, I've been known to type significant amounts almost completely > open-loop. This paragraph, for example, I got two lines into before > the display got past "Indee". (This is mostly because of quadratic > behaviour in some screen updating code; someday I may have another > crack at improving it.) You wrote your own editor? -spc (And that's either a slow computer, or you're a very fast typist ... ) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 30 01:53:52 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 02:53:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200512300805.DAA01877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Indeed, I've been known to type significant amounts almost >> completely open-loop. This paragraph, for example, I got two lines >> into before the display got past "Indee". (This is mostly because >> of quadratic behaviour in some screen updating code; someday I may >> have another crack at improving it.) > You wrote your own editor? No. It's a derivative of a very old Gosling emacs, and, while I've done nontrivial amounts of work to it, it is still mostly not my code. The display update code is marked with /**************************************************************** /-------------\ / \ / \ / \ | XXXX XXXX | | XXXX XXXX | | XXX XXX | \ X / --\ XXX /-- | | XXX | | | | | | | I I I I I I I | | I I I I I I | \ / -- -- \-------/ XXX XXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXX XXX ************** * BEWARE!! * ************** All ye who enter here: Most of the code in this module is twisted beyond belief! Tread carefully. If you think you understand it, You Don't, So Look Again. ****************************************************************/ And it's not kidding. I once tried to improve that code and succeeded only in both slowing it down significantly and introducing new bugs. > -spc (And that's either a slow computer, or you're a very fast > typist ... ) Both, though probably the former more so. The computer is fairly fast by my standards, but those standards are quite old (it's a SS20, and each keystroke is being handled by four processes, with output being handled by the same four processes in the other direction, all of this running on the same machine). And yes, I do type fast, probably somewhat over 100wpm when I don't have to stop and think about what to type next. (I just now timed myself retyping the previous two sentences - "The computer...type next" - which is 37 words according to wc; it took me about 15 seconds, plus a few seconds to fix two typos.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 30 02:10:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:10:04 -0800 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: At 2:48 AM -0500 12/30/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > You wrote your own editor? > > -spc (And that's either a slow computer, or you're a very fast > typist ... ) You haven't? When I got that funky pen based plotter that Commodore had for my VIC-20, I had to write my own. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 02:20:08 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:20:08 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20051230004132.08631550@mail.marcal.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20051230004132.08631550@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: <200512300020080127.17D61A62@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 12:42 AM Dan Veeneman wrote: >I have a scanned photograph of a Beehive terminal, taken from >a manual, at http://www.decodesystems.com/beehive-terminal.gif This is the one I'm thinking of -- the SuperBee. This one's missing it's plexiglass faceplate: http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/superbee.gif Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 02:23:56 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:23:56 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:22:51 -0800. <200512292122510380.1733CE16@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512292122510380.1733CE16 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > No, but they sound about the same. Beige pebble-painted slab-sided cases > with a sloping top (I think they were actually made of welded sheets of > aluminum), detachable keyboard with a thick grey cable and some keys with > little bi-pin lamps under them to indicate modes. Rotary control on a > small black panel on the back to set the bitrate from 110-9600(?). Shift > register memory and some 1702s for ROM. IIRC, end-of-line was something > like 0x1f. Bronze-tinted sheet of plexiglass over the screen. Keys were > light brown and the keyboard mask was dark brown. IIRC, the thing couldn't > actually display and scroll at 9600, so handshaking at higher speeds was > required. I still may have some code around that I used to drive one. I > think I remember that you could fire off some combinations of codes that > would cause them to hang. YES! These are the exact models we used. Of course we were across town from our PDP-11/70, so even with the "hard wire" modem we never got more than 1800 baud out of them. Which reminds me of an interesting story. These modems were only rated for 1200 baud. We used them at that speed for several weeks before I said "why not just turn up the baud rate and see what happens?" -- one of those questions young teenagers ask because they don't know any better :-). So we tried 2400 baud. Garbage. We then tried 1800 baud and they worked flawlessly. Sweet! 50% bonus just for being experimental! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 02:25:36 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:25:36 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:42:36 -0500. <6.1.2.0.2.20051230004132.08631550@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: In article <6.1.2.0.2.20051230004132.08631550 at mail.marcal.com>, Dan Veeneman writes: > I have a scanned photograph of a Beehive terminal, taken from > a manual, at http://www.decodesystems.com/beehive-terminal.gif Yep, I think I saved that one off to my harddrive a while ago :-). We didn't have that model, but Chuck described to me in a private reply the exact kind of model that we used most. There was another model that we used which was an all-in-one unit like the one in your photograph, but the case and keyboard layout was different. It was shaped more like a bubble as I recall, but the memory is fuzzy. I think it was called the SuperBee or MiniBee? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 02:33:08 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:33:08 -0700 Subject: IBM 2741 ball element terminal / Epson FX-80 Message-ID: Anyone have either of these in their collection? The former seemed fairly rare even in its day, while the latter was mass produced yet I seem to never see it listed on anyone's collection web page. I think I have an Epson FX-80 printer somewhere in a cabinet with a busted tractor feed mechanism on one side. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 02:37:32 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:37:32 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:20:08 -0800. <200512300020080127.17D61A62@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512300020080127.17D61A62 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 12/30/2005 at 12:42 AM Dan Veeneman wrote: > > >I have a scanned photograph of a Beehive terminal, taken from > >a manual, at http://www.decodesystems.com/beehive-terminal.gif > > This is the one I'm thinking of -- the SuperBee. This one's missing it's > plexiglass faceplate: > > http://www.science.uva.nl/faculteit/museum/superbee.gif Yes!! That's the one. Those function keys were *really* weird. We used them to talk to a PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E and since they weren't VT-100/VT-52 compatible the visual mode for TECO or EDT was worthless. I do remember that we made a bunch of text-based animations for them, though. We're trying to get the data off an old set of backups, but the guy who has custody of the tapes has been dragging his heels for 10 years.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 30 02:52:40 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 03:52:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 30, 2005 12:10:04 AM Message-ID: <20051230085240.C2A8273029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > At 2:48 AM -0500 12/30/05, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > You wrote your own editor? > > > > -spc (And that's either a slow computer, or you're a very fast > > typist ... ) > > You haven't? When I got that funky pen based plotter that Commodore > had for my VIC-20, I had to write my own. I've written some specialized input routines---mainly to handle dated numerical input (okay, a program to process lottery numbers, years before the Internet made such information readily available). But not general purpose text editing. -spc (Not that I haven't given it thought ... ) From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Dec 30 03:07:29 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:07:29 +0100 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am donderdag, 29.12.05, um 13:50 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Tony Duell: >> This list will not convince Tony otherwise, I also tried ... > > What bothers me is whu you want to convince me otherwise. Me, and the others probably also, are basically only pointing out that there is a place for modern, non-hobbyist friendly technology too. There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. Component level repair on those is impossible, even though I have the full schematics on mine.... Does that mean all mobile phones are bad and not worth having ? In the same line of thought, there is a place for a non-hacker friendly modern PC, I do use mine as storage for all the PDF's releated to my Classiccmp gear and my digital photos. Zippy response is nice to have for these usage cases. Also economics are important : my (limited) skills in (modern non-hacker technology) GSM IC design enable me a comfortable living, my skills in desiging TTL CPU's or repairing PDP8's are basically worthless, even though I find them more interesting. It is a case of using the right tools for the job : old machines when you want to hack ,modern machine for productive use. Regards, Jos From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 30 03:22:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 04:22:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512300925.EAA02254@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. I'm not entirely convinced this is true, especially since there can be more than one form of "hacker-friendly" (perhaps most broadly, the difference between hardware-hacker-friendly, which is what we were talking about here, and software-hacker-friendly, which is a matter of design and documentation, not construction technology). But never mind.... > Component level repair on those is impossible, Really? I've had one of mine (a Nokia 5190) apart, and it doesn't look any worse than any other surface-mount stuff. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 05:15:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:15:24 +0000 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one? > > They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, > making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I > haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! I used to have one that I got from OCLC (Online Computer Library Center?) in Dublin, OH. Unfortunately, it succumbed to a flood when I was in college (over 15 years ago). I remember having difficulties working with it when I was using my PDP-8 and PDP-11 every day. I ended up picking up a cheap VT-52 ($50?) as an alternative. Everytime a Beehive thread comes around, I miss the chance to dig into it. I have plenty of DEC terminals (VT52, VT10[0123], VT105, VT220, VT241, VT320) but few non-DEC terminals (besides a pile of CITOH VT102-clones). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 06:18:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:18:29 +0000 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 12/29/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Thanks for the pointers, y'all. I don't really collect PCs, but that > SLT/286 has some sentimental significance. It's worth a couple of bucks > and some solder time. I removed (desoldered) a dead Dallas clock module from mine and installed a low-profile socket only to find that there isn't even clearance for _that_. So I nibbled a hole in the bottom of the battery tray, and the replacement module sticks up just a little bit. (for those that might not remember previous Dallas threads, I use my SLT/286 w/docking station to run my UP600a device programmer). -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Dec 30 06:23:34 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:23:34 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26682.195.212.29.75.1135945414.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've > learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card > brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open > media holes. I've recently thrown away an otherwise good Dell > Optiplex Pentium III system because the mice set up housekeeping > in it. There was a big obvious nest in it and signs that 'the > little ones' were (im)properly raised as computer component > enthusiasts. I still have a lot of systems out there but they're > all carefully sealed. But I live surrounded by hundreds of acres > of cornfields, and the mice converge on my garage every year when > it gets cold. They've also chewed up ALL the power tool user > manuals that I made the mistake of leaving in the workbench > drawer. Sometimes if I'm out there and being quiet enough, the > whole city of mice around me comes alive. Basically, you need a cat. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 06:26:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:26:28 +0000 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 12/29/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > > formatted. > > You haven't done anything wrong -- SIMH doesn't provide any kind of > emulation other than straight TTY for its console window. I've run > Open VMS in Simh/VAX and have the same issue. You'll likely just have > to read around the control codes, and later use a telnet client to get > reasonable output, once the OS is installed. When running simh under Linux/UNIX, wouldn't it work to put a real VT100 (or clone or a proper emulator on an external PC), fire up a getty, then run simh from that window? That way, the device external to the CPU running simh would interpret the codes. That trick _does_ work for me running TOPS-20 under klh10. It was easier to do that than fix or replace xterm which is _not_ VT100 compatible anymore. I was unable to successfully run emacs on an xterm, but with a _real_ dumb terminal hung off the back of the machine, emacs ran perfectly. What's puzzling to me is that that at least back in the 1980s, when installing 4BSD, we used to use printing terminals like an LA36. If the install procedure used ANSI sequences, for the most part, we'd also see garbage. I guess by the time NetBSD 2.0 came around, it's entirely possible that its developers assumed you were on a glass TTY, but it's too "new" for me to have much experience with it. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 30 06:44:58 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 06:44:58 -0600 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/29/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Thanks for the pointers, y'all. I don't really collect PCs, but that >>SLT/286 has some sentimental significance. It's worth a couple of bucks >>and some solder time. > > > I removed (desoldered) a dead Dallas clock module from mine and > installed a low-profile socket only to find that there isn't even > clearance for _that_. So I nibbled a hole in the bottom of the > battery tray, and the replacement module sticks up just a little bit. Hmmm. I know it's near-heresy here, but I'll probably just solder the new clock chip back in. Unless you'd know the part number of said low-profile socket? ;) > (for those that might not remember previous Dallas threads, I use my > SLT/286 w/docking station to run my UP600a device programmer). I found the setup disk, but I still haven't figured out - does this model have the Compaq setup partition on the drive? If so, how do I set that up? I'm also trying to figure out how a 2" IDE cable can go south. It did, though. I have 2 drives that the setup can see fine with another cable, but the short one is toes-up. Doc From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 30 03:40:37 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:40:37 +0000 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230085240.C2A8273029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 30, 2005 12:10:04 AM Message-ID: <20051230134922.IDVC17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > > You wrote your own editor? > > You haven't? When I got that funky pen based plotter that Commodore > > had for my VIC-20, I had to write my own. > I've written some specialized input routines---mainly to handle dated > numerical input (okay, a program to process lottery numbers, years before > the Internet made such information readily available). But not general > purpose text editing. I'm surprised that more people haven't written their own editor. An editor was among the first software projects I did when I built my first computer in the 70s. Somewhere early to mid 80's I wrote the editor that I still use today. It's not overly complex, but it supports full-screen (WYSIWYG) and line-by-line modes and has a reasonable compliment of commands (search/replace/block functions etc.). Originally in 6809 assembler, I ported it to 'C' sometime later, and have moved it to every computer that I've done serious work on since. It's VERY nice to have the same editor "everywhere". -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 30 04:00:00 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:00:00 +0000 Subject: 8088 project (was: Housing collections) In-Reply-To: <20051229203453.47465b16.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20051230140642.IKBG17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > I have an 8086/8088 monitor, which provides edit/dump memory/registers, > > serial download, breakpoints, single-step, disassembly and lots of other > > goodies in just over 4K of code space - completely independant of hardware > > (ie: No DOS/BIOS requirements). > > > > That's exactly the kind of firmware I want for the 8088 SBC > project, at least to start. Does your monitor use a serial > console? I need to add a serial port to the design. Possibly > using the 6402 UART. Really, though, one of the 'design > principles' of the projet is to re-use, so maybe a part from the > 8250 family (which can be found on any old PC-clone serial card) > would be easier for someone replicating the design to come up > with. Awhile back I 'won' a whole tube of 85C30 parts from > someone selling them on eBay, but they never showed up. And I am > trying to stick to DIP packages to keep it easy to build with OTS > parts. Or I could stick a primative ISA slot on it and plug in > one of my spare IBM Serial Adapters and use the current loop > interface. (naw... heh.) Yes, the monitor is designed to be completely hardware independant (except for the CPU :-) and operates with any sort of serial console. I provide sample drivers for the 8250, and also for PC keyboard/video via BIOS calls (these are the only BIOS calls and are inserted only if you assemble it with this driver option - it lets you run it as a .COM file under DOS to check it out). > I have fond memories of monitor-based systems from the past. I > have a first generation BigBoard in mothballs, for one example. > It used to boot CP/M from the monitor prompt. First thing I write when going to a new CPU is a monitor - I also have monitors to stuff into a lot of vintage gear so that I can poke around, very handy. If it is of use to you on the 8088 project, I also have HDM86, one of my "Hardware Debug Monitors" - it's much simpler, but uses NO RAM - handy for getting boards up and running. > > I also have a PC based 8086/808 cross assembler intended for the "bare > > metal" which produces downloadable code. > > I've noticed the full line of cross-assemblers for all sorts of > processors on the website linked at the bottom of your messages > (and I think I remember, going way back, your ad in magazines > like Circuit Cellar.) Really what has been the 'missing link' in > the 8088 sbc project has been an assembler designed like yours. > There are many MANY tools available and many websites dedicated > to x86 assembly programming, but it's almost all oriented toward > a BIOS-based PC system. I come from a 'bare metal' and prefer > starting right at the bottom from a reset vector. Yeah, thats me - I've been doing "bare metal" tools for quite a long time... > At one point I had the 'dream' of a monitor rom to drop in place > on PC-XT motherboards to turn them into Single Board Computers. > But these days an Xt motherboard is a scarce commodity, while > there are still plenty of 8088 processors available. (And > keeping the design 'generic' the next generation can be an 8086 > based system, with 16 bit data path.) Thats should be relatively easy to do, especially if you stick to a serial console, or a single video card type (MDA for example) to support. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 30 08:56:49 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:56:49 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06><200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > And these days, Selectrics aren't expensive either. I hope everyone on the list understands that when things get real cheap, you have to guess weather you will *ever* need one of whatever it is, and buy it now. Marketplaces don't care about archival, 2 or 3 years of something being cheap, and it will be gone. John A. BTW, now is a great time to get PCMCIA SCSI adaptors, by the above rule. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 08:59:56 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:59:56 -0500 Subject: 8088 project (was: Housing collections) In-Reply-To: <200512292247570158.1781B61D@10.0.0.252> References: <20051229234244.YQOG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20051229203453.47465b16.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512292247570158.1781B61D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051230095956.29d59973.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:47:57 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/29/2005 at 8:34 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >And I am trying to stick to DIP packages to keep it easy to build with OTS > >parts. Or I could stick a primative ISA slot on it and plug in > >one of my spare IBM Serial Adapters and use the current loop > >interface. (naw... heh.) > > That reminds me of something I was wondering about. I've got one of those > HD64180's in the DIP package with the pins on 0.050" centers. Does anyone > know of a socket that will let me use this thing on 0.100" center proto > board? > Is that what's called the 'shrink-dip' package in parts of the industry? I remember years back having to order some special ZIF sockets to make use of them with an NEC micro we were using. And just last week I was looking through the detris from the old electronics lab at work and noticed a fragment of circuit board designed expressly for mounting one of those chips. It had been chopped up, though, by some cretin who used a part of the 0.100" pad layout for some other purpose. So apparently there are prototyping boards available to adapt that pin spacing for breadboarding/hand-wiring purposes. Back at the time when we were dealing with it, I just epoxied one of the (expensive, large minimum order) ZIF burnin sockets onto a standard 0.100" spacing header to make an adapter. Awkward but it worked. Search on 'shrink-dip' which I believe is the term for chips with that spacing. > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 09:03:00 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:03:00 +0000 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Hmmm. I know it's near-heresy here, but I'll probably just solder > the new clock chip back in. Unless you'd know the part number of said > low-profile socket? ;) Dunno about part numbers - I just had one in my stash. > I found the setup disk, but I still haven't figured out - does this > model have the Compaq setup partition on the drive? If so, how do I set > that up? Hmm... dunno about a partion (for this model - later models _do_ have one), but ISTR finding the relevant setup disks online to do it from floppy after a google search. > I'm also trying to figure out how a 2" IDE cable can go south. It > did, though. I have 2 drives that the setup can see fine with another > cable, but the short one is toes-up. Odd... well... those cables probably weren't designed for lots of fiddling/remounting, etc. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 09:09:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:09:04 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <26682.195.212.29.75.1135945414.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26682.195.212.29.75.1135945414.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20051230100904.669996e1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:23:34 -0000 (GMT) gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > > I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've > > learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card > > brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open > > media holes. I've recently thrown away an otherwise good Dell > > Optiplex Pentium III system because the mice set up housekeeping > > in it. There was a big obvious nest in it and signs that 'the > > little ones' were (im)properly raised as computer component > > enthusiasts. I still have a lot of systems out there but they're > > all carefully sealed. But I live surrounded by hundreds of acres > > of cornfields, and the mice converge on my garage every year when > > it gets cold. They've also chewed up ALL the power tool user > > manuals that I made the mistake of leaving in the workbench > > drawer. Sometimes if I'm out there and being quiet enough, the > > whole city of mice around me comes alive. > > Basically, you need a cat. > > Gordon. > It's more than one cat could deal with. We have six cats but sadly they are 'house' cats and my wife won't let me have them 'spend a night out in the garage.' Plus cats can get diseases from eating wild mice, etc. and these are pampered house cats (expensive vet bills, etc...) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 09:12:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:12:54 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051230101254.76c2bcc5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 06:44:58 -0600 Doc Shipley wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 12/29/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the pointers, y'all. I don't really collect PCs, but that > >>SLT/286 has some sentimental significance. It's worth a couple of bucks > >>and some solder time. > > > > > > I removed (desoldered) a dead Dallas clock module from mine and > > installed a low-profile socket only to find that there isn't even > > clearance for _that_. So I nibbled a hole in the bottom of the > > battery tray, and the replacement module sticks up just a little bit. > > Hmmm. I know it's near-heresy here, but I'll probably just solder > the new clock chip back in. Unless you'd know the part number of said > low-profile socket? ;) > Naw, adding a socket amounts to 'modifying the design' and ruining the historical value of the piece. You'd be doing it just for 'convenience' which would be the same as replacing special proprietary screw heads on a power supply. ;-) From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 09:14:42 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:14:42 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I work in a "thrift shop" and we sell Selectrics for $5 when we get them, which is about 4 or 5 times a year. On 12/30/05, John Allain wrote: > > And these days, Selectrics aren't expensive either. > > I hope everyone on the list understands that when things get real cheap, > you have to guess weather you will *ever* need one of whatever it is, > and buy it now. Marketplaces don't care about archival, 2 or 3 years > of something being cheap, and it will be gone. > > John A. > > BTW, now is a great time to get PCMCIA SCSI adaptors, > by the above rule. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 09:18:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:18:45 -0500 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051230101845.5aa9b58d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:26:28 +0000 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/30/05, Josef Chessor wrote: > > On 12/29/05, Jim Beacon wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > > > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > > > formatted. > > > > You haven't done anything wrong -- SIMH doesn't provide any kind of > > emulation other than straight TTY for its console window. I've run > > Open VMS in Simh/VAX and have the same issue. You'll likely just have > > to read around the control codes, and later use a telnet client to get > > reasonable output, once the OS is installed. > > When running simh under Linux/UNIX, wouldn't it work to put a real > VT100 (or clone or a proper emulator on an external PC), fire up a > getty, then run simh from that window? That way, the device external > to the CPU running simh would interpret the codes. That trick _does_ > work for me running TOPS-20 under klh10. It was easier to do that > than fix or replace xterm which is _not_ VT100 compatible anymore. I > was unable to successfully run emacs on an xterm, but with a _real_ > dumb terminal hung off the back of the machine, emacs ran perfectly. > > What's puzzling to me is that that at least back in the 1980s, when > installing 4BSD, we used to use printing terminals like an LA36. If > the install procedure used ANSI sequences, for the most part, we'd > also see garbage. I guess by the time NetBSD 2.0 came around, it's > entirely possible that its developers assumed you were on a glass TTY, > but it's too "new" for me to have much experience with it. > I've installed NetBSD over a serial console on a lot of older hardware. If I am not mistaken it prompts for a terminal type very early in the install process, but I can't remember if I've tried bare TTY to see how usable that was. I always do it from minicom on another NetBSD box which has passable VT-100 emulation. My first home online experience wa on a printing terminal, an old 1200 baud DecWriter that I hooked to an acoustic coupler to call BBSes before I had a home computer of my own with a serial port. 'Reading the backscross' was as simple as pulling up the sheafs of paper cascading behind the big DecWriter. Life has never again been that simple. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 09:26:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:26:58 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:49:50 -0500 Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > > >In article <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel at earthlink.net>, > > Scott Stevens writes: > > > > > There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using > > > a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into > > > an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely > > > to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page > > > of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that > > > many people no longer experience. > > Thank goodness! > > >Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something else > >and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and > >bang it out in a few seconds... > > And then try to find an eraser to rub-out what you fscked up, grumble, > never find the eraser, reload new paper, keep banging, realize you made > another mistake... Ungh. Not to mention when you need to edit said document > 2 years later, instead of retyping the whole thing in again. > If you are _writing_ as opposed to typesetting your manuscript for distribution, the revision history (forced on you by the fact that you can't just cursor around the page like a little kid rolling the peas around on his dinner plate) is of use. Composing your thoughts on a typewriter, in my experience, causes you to think a bit more before typing. Which isn't a bad thing. > Typewriters are like cats - I have nothing against them as long as I don't > have to have one. ;-) > > > than it is to turn on the computer, > >launch the editor, type in the text, turn on the printer, print it > >out, and then power everything off again. > > I turn on my trusty 20-year-old Tandy 200 (immediate), the printer's > *always on* and does text, Postscript, PCL6, Diablo, and lord knows what > else, bang on a keyboard *nearly* as good as a Selectric (I will admit they > had a nice feel to 'em, prolly still why I like IBM Model 'M's ;-) > including repairing mistakes, print the sucker out, and hand the copy to > whomever needs it. Much faster than a typewriter *for me*. > > Typewriters are the reason I graduated high school typing "36 wpm" instead > of the 110+ I could achieve on a computer - forgetting to set the > double-space was my first mistake in the test, and the secretarial teacher > dogged me on it. If she'd have overlooked that and took the next 6 _actual_ > errors (most of which were due to differences in the keyboards between the > Selectrics & a Tandy Model 4, which I used 90% of the time), at least the > damn thing would've said 69wpm. Still not an actual meter of what I could > do, but one helluva lot closer! Any _writer_ who can type at 110 wpm is either extremely wealthy because of all the money he can bring in from his prodigious output, or writing an awful lot of bad prose. 110 wpm rates are for secretaries transcribing what other people have written. That's certainly what they are training people for in those High School typing classes. The rest of us take the course and learn what 'home position is' etc. but shrug off the speed competitions. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 09:48:39 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:48:39 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well, I am a writer, and I use a computer. I was never able to use a typewriter because the thought and time it took slowed my brain down to where I lost 80% of what I generated. Now I just let it flow. When I am done I rearrange paragraphs, correct the spelling, and do all that sort of editing. But in the meantime, all the thought was captured just as it flowed out. Some of it was garbage and some of it is gold. But the sorting can come later. On 12/30/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 00:49:50 -0500 > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > > > > >In article <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel at earthlink.net>, > > > Scott Stevens writes: > > > > > > > There's really nothing else to compare to the immediacy of using > > > > a typewriter. These days everything written is transferred into > > > > an electronic ether, to possibly be printed someday, more likely > > > > to just disappear. It's a very 'real' experience to type a page > > > > of thoughts direct to a piece of paper. And it is something that > > > > many people no longer experience. > > > > Thank goodness! > > > > >Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something else > > >and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and > > >bang it out in a few seconds... > > > > And then try to find an eraser to rub-out what you fscked up, grumble, > > never find the eraser, reload new paper, keep banging, realize you made > > another mistake... Ungh. Not to mention when you need to edit said document > > 2 years later, instead of retyping the whole thing in again. > > > > If you are _writing_ as opposed to typesetting your manuscript > for distribution, the revision history (forced on you by the fact > that you can't just cursor around the page like a little kid > rolling the peas around on his dinner plate) is of use. > Composing your thoughts on a typewriter, in my experience, causes > you to think a bit more before typing. Which isn't a bad thing. > > > Typewriters are like cats - I have nothing against them as long as I don't > > have to have one. ;-) > > > > > than it is to turn on the computer, > > >launch the editor, type in the text, turn on the printer, print it > > >out, and then power everything off again. > > > > I turn on my trusty 20-year-old Tandy 200 (immediate), the printer's > > *always on* and does text, Postscript, PCL6, Diablo, and lord knows what > > else, bang on a keyboard *nearly* as good as a Selectric (I will admit they > > had a nice feel to 'em, prolly still why I like IBM Model 'M's ;-) > > including repairing mistakes, print the sucker out, and hand the copy to > > whomever needs it. Much faster than a typewriter *for me*. > > > > Typewriters are the reason I graduated high school typing "36 wpm" instead > > of the 110+ I could achieve on a computer - forgetting to set the > > double-space was my first mistake in the test, and the secretarial teacher > > dogged me on it. If she'd have overlooked that and took the next 6 _actual_ > > errors (most of which were due to differences in the keyboards between the > > Selectrics & a Tandy Model 4, which I used 90% of the time), at least the > > damn thing would've said 69wpm. Still not an actual meter of what I could > > do, but one helluva lot closer! > > Any _writer_ who can type at 110 wpm is either extremely wealthy > because of all the money he can bring in from his prodigious > output, or writing an awful lot of bad prose. 110 wpm rates are > for secretaries transcribing what other people have written. > That's certainly what they are training people for in those High > School typing classes. The rest of us take the course and learn > what 'home position is' etc. but shrug off the speed competitions. > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Dec 30 09:57:08 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:57:08 -0500 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230105323.03a8a7d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen may have mentioned these words: [snippage] >There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. "Build your own" isn't hacker-friendly??? ;-) http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68&osCsid=9a7294a66c0189537fc6753884400150 Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Dec 30 10:00:26 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:00:26 -0500 Subject: Dallas clock battery In-Reply-To: <43B52BCA.7030401@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B3A132.8010208@mdrconsult.com> <20051229175815.2793e654.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291518320657.15E6478C@10.0.0.252> <43B473BB.1020803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230105838.04bf3ec0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Doc Shipley may have mentioned these words: > I'm also trying to figure out how a 2" IDE cable can go south. It did, > though. I have 2 drives that the setup can see fine with another cable, > but the short one is toes-up. Short "flexi-things" generally don't flex nearly so well as long "flexi-things." I've seen lots of short cables "cross to the other side" in my day. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From kth at srv.net Fri Dec 30 10:21:51 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:21:51 -0700 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43B55E9F.4030306@srv.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >When running simh under Linux/UNIX, wouldn't it work to put a real >VT100 (or clone or a proper emulator on an external PC), fire up a >getty, then run simh from that window? That way, the device external >to the CPU running simh would interpret the codes. That trick _does_ >work for me running TOPS-20 under klh10. It was easier to do that >than fix or replace xterm which is _not_ VT100 compatible anymore. I >was unable to successfully run emacs on an xterm, but with a _real_ >dumb terminal hung off the back of the machine, emacs ran perfectly. > > I find xterm to do a pretty good job, compared to other terminal emulators. Are you thinking of gnome-terminal, which has apparently become the default for many Linux systems, because it isn't that good. Most systems will also ship xterm with it, but no GUI button to execute it. Try typing 'xterm &' from inside a terminal screen and see if the screen it pulls up looks the same. If not, you are probably running gnome-terminal. From tponsford at theriver.com Fri Dec 30 10:59:40 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051230100904.669996e1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B31B08.7090308@jetnet.ab.ca> <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512291535.35083.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20051229174216.6da02a4f.chenmel@earthlink.net> <26682.195.212.29.75.1135945414.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <20051230100904.669996e1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B5677C.6070803@theriver.com> Living here in the desert, field mice are aplenty, I built a fairly large shed to house my collection (12x24) and although it is not heated or cooled it does keep the computers and equipment out of the elements. One of the solution I have found to keep the field mice from making nests inside computers is to put 1 or 2 mothballs inside the computer. It does work, but then again your computer collection smells like grandma's closet :-D Cheers Tom Ponsford Scott Stevens wrote: >On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:23:34 -0000 (GMT) >gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > > > >>>I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've >>>learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card >>>brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open >>>media holes. I've recently thrown away an otherwise good Dell >>>Optiplex Pentium III system because the mice set up housekeeping >>>in it. There was a big obvious nest in it and signs that 'the >>>little ones' were (im)properly raised as computer component >>>enthusiasts. I still have a lot of systems out there but they're >>>all carefully sealed. But I live surrounded by hundreds of acres >>>of cornfields, and the mice converge on my garage every year when >>>it gets cold. They've also chewed up ALL the power tool user >>>manuals that I made the mistake of leaving in the workbench >>>drawer. Sometimes if I'm out there and being quiet enough, the >>>whole city of mice around me comes alive. >>> >>> >>Basically, you need a cat. >> >>Gordon. >> >> >> >It's more than one cat could deal with. We have six cats but >sadly they are 'house' cats and my wife won't let me have them >'spend a night out in the garage.' Plus cats can get diseases >from eating wild mice, etc. and these are pampered house cats >(expensive vet bills, etc...) > > > > > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Dec 30 11:52:18 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:52:18 -0000 Subject: Simh problem References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001001c60d69$c79cb160$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> OK, so I should have specified the problem properly........ I have simh running in a DOS window under Win98SE. I am trying to install NetBSD 2.0 onto a simulated VAX ('cause the real one doesn't arrive until tomorrow, and I haven't played VAX before!). After a little searching, I found that Windows doesn't install the ANSI.SYS driver when it is installed, and without this, DOS cannot interpret the ESC codes. I've now added Ansi.sys to the config.sys file, which has improved matters (the cursor control works), now all I have to do is figure out how to control the line length - I suspect a switch is required on the ANSI driver. I'll report back when (IF) I get it to work properly. Jim. From: "Jim Beacon" > Hi All, > > I've been trying to install NetBSD 2.0 on the SimH VAX emulator, but the > install text shows up as control codes, rather than correctly spaced and > formatted. > > What have I done wrong? > > Thanks > > Jim. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 12:12:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:12:33 +0000 Subject: Simh problem In-Reply-To: <43B55E9F.4030306@srv.net> References: <00b501c60cae$5e6a37a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <9e2403920512291735y2429f7d7l7834549571fef8f@mail.gmail.com> <43B55E9F.4030306@srv.net> Message-ID: On 12/30/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ...running TOPS-20 under klh10. It was easier to do that > >than fix or replace xterm which is _not_ VT100 compatible anymore. > > > I find xterm to do a pretty good job, compared to other > terminal emulators. Are you thinking of gnome-terminal, > which has apparently become the default for many Linux > systems, because it isn't that good. Perhaps that was the case. Next time I fire up klh10, I'll give a "real" xterm a try and see if it will run Emacs. -ethan From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Dec 30 12:44:46 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:44:46 -0800 Subject: Simh problem Message-ID: <43B50F9E.6942.3C6F7F2F@localhost> > After a little searching, I found that Windows doesn't install the > ANSI.SYS driver when it is installed, and without this, DOS cannot > interpret the ESC codes. Just FYI: This will work on Win9x but not on Windows 2000 or XP (or Vista). On the NT product line, ANSI.SYS works in the MS-DOS emulation subsystem only, and doesn't work for 32-bit console applications. So, if you install simh on Windows 2000 or XP, you'll need to use a telnet application. Brian From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 12:47:28 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 11:47:28 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:14:42 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" writes: > I work in a "thrift shop" and we sell Selectrics for $5 when we get > them, which is about 4 or 5 times a year. When I see them in the local thrift shop they are more expensive, but still sell. If they were only $5 I'd have already bought one :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 12:57:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:57:14 -0800 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200512301057140100.1A1D688C@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 10:26 AM Scott Stevens wrote: >Any _writer_ who can type at 110 wpm is either extremely wealthy >because of all the money he can bring in from his prodigious >output, or writing an awful lot of bad prose. ... This really brings the topic around to an aspect of "vintage" computing that I suspect most folks don't remember much (or want to forget). Programming before the days of widely-available online terminals looked like this: 1. Think about what you want to do. 2. Chart it out (flowchart if you were a stickler, but otherwise draw some boxes on a sheet of paper to remind you. 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. 4. Send the coding form to keypunch (or keypunch it yourself if that was allowed). 5. When the card deck comes back (usually within a day or two), get an 80-80 listing if one was not provided. Swear under your breath at the %##$% keypunch operator who decided that a zero should sometimes be an "oh", regardless of the way you wrote it. Mark and make your corrections on one of the "10 minute limit" keypunches. Get a new 80-80 of the corrected deck. 6. Batch the deck up with the necessary JCL and submit it with any other tapes, etc. at the I/O desk. 7. Barring problems, a few hours later, your deck, etc. will be delivered back to your desk with the abend dump that invariably seemed to result. 8. Scratch your head and try to figure out what went wrong--and restart the process all over again. Those steps 6, 7 and 8 are why I got into OS--you can't debug an operating system on a timeshare basis. So you sign up for block time in the dead of night, which pretty much absolved you from attending anything but department meetings. You could go weeks without seeing your boss. I remember when the first online terminals made their appearance--the managers were shocked that you could just type in source code and run it. The reaction was that quality would suffer horribly. After all these years, I'm not sure. The old way, because of the huge cost in time of mistakes, did tend to make one's approach far more deliberate. There were lots of hours of "stare at the listing and think about what's going to happen"--and I think that the deep understanding of what one's code actually is doing (with all of the side effects) is the big time-eater. The same scenario applies to writing. One can bang out a stream-of-consciousness prose and then go back many times to clean it up, or one can form a prize paragraph of almost crystalline beauty in one's mind and transcribe it fully-formed. I'm not convinced that either way is more productive than the other--or is any faster. Cheers, Chuck From bert at brothom.nl Fri Dec 30 14:04:30 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:04:30 +0100 Subject: kontron logic analyzer Message-ID: <43B592CE.9010600@brothom.nl> Hi all, A few months ago I found an advertisment for a second-hand logic analyzer in a paper for used lab equipment. It was advertised as a stand-alone device for EUR 375 or something in that range. I decided to take the risk and ordered it. Some weeks later I got an email from the company that wanted to sell it stating that the device was defect and could not be repaired. I replied asking whether or not I could buy it for a small amount, say 25 euro. They replied I got and so I did. However, shipping was 85 euro but I still aggreed. It is a logic analyser by the German company "Kontron Messtechnik". It came with lots of probes and even special probes including software and manuals for particular processors such as 8085, 8088 and 8051. It also came with a box full of disks, some saying "CP/M", so it might run on CP/M. Does anybody has any info on this piece of equipment? Schematics would be very cool obviously. On the other hand, if someone could use it, I'd be glad to sell it for the same price as I got it for. I have a pretty nice logic analyzer that connects to a PC, so no real need for this machine other then its historic value. It _is_ old: at least 20 years as the software and documents have dates like 29.1.85. All documentation is in German by the way. Regards, Bert From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 14:04:40 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:04:40 -0500 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) Message-ID: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> >From: Roger Merchberger >Subject: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project >is canceled) >Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen may have mentioned these words: >[snippage] >>There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. >"Build your own" isn't hacker-friendly??? ;-) >http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger ------------------------ Neat stuff; _Love_ the rotary dial cell phone... mike From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 30 14:41:47 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:41:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512301057140100.1A1D688C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> Chuck, This thread has really piqued my interest since I am a programmer. (Hey, the OS I program under almost falls into the 10 year rule!) ;) > > This really brings the topic around to an aspect of "vintage" computing > that I suspect most folks don't remember much (or want to forget). > > Programming before the days of widely-available online terminals looked > like this: > > 1. Think about what you want to do. > > 2. Chart it out (flowchart if you were a stickler, but otherwise draw some > boxes on a sheet of paper to remind you. > > 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. > What do these coding forms look like? > 4. Send the coding form to keypunch (or keypunch it yourself if that was > allowed). > > 5. When the card deck comes back (usually within a day or two), get an > 80-80 listing if one was not provided. Swear under your breath at the > %##$% keypunch operator who decided that a zero should sometimes be an > "oh", regardless of the way you wrote it. Mark and make your corrections > on one of the "10 minute limit" keypunches. Get a new 80-80 of the > corrected deck. > What is an 80-80 listing? Was that the output from your program? > 6. Batch the deck up with the necessary JCL and submit it with any other > tapes, etc. at the I/O desk. JCL - Job Control Language? > > 7. Barring problems, a few hours later, your deck, etc. will be delivered > back to your desk with the abend dump that invariably seemed to result. > What is "abend"? > 8. Scratch your head and try to figure out what went wrong--and restart > the process all over again. > > Those steps 6, 7 and 8 are why I got into OS--you can't debug an operating > system on a timeshare basis. So you sign up for block time in the dead of > night, which pretty much absolved you from attending anything but > department meetings. You could go weeks without seeing your boss. > > I remember when the first online terminals made their appearance--the > managers were shocked that you could just type in source code and run it. > The reaction was that quality would suffer horribly. > > After all these years, I'm not sure. The old way, because of the huge cost > in time of mistakes, did tend to make one's approach far more deliberate. > There were lots of hours of "stare at the listing and think about what's > going to happen"--and I think that the deep understanding of what one's > code actually is doing (with all of the side effects) is the big > time-eater. > But it is better to waste time while programming making sure it is right then to fix it when it blows up at a client site... Cheers, Bryan > The same scenario applies to writing. One can bang out a > stream-of-consciousness prose and then go back many times to clean it up, > or one can form a prize paragraph of almost crystalline beauty in one's > mind and transcribe it fully-formed. > > I'm not convinced that either way is more productive than the other--or is > any faster. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 14:53:09 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:53:09 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/05 3:41 PM, "Bryan Pope" wrote: >> 6. Batch the deck up with the necessary JCL and submit it with any other >> tapes, etc. at the I/O desk. > > JCL - Job Control Language? > Yes. >> >> 7. Barring problems, a few hours later, your deck, etc. will be delivered >> back to your desk with the abend dump that invariably seemed to result. >> > > What is "abend"? ABnormal END Basically, your program crashed for some reason, you could say Something like a missing DASD or the wrong volume names could cause it, or just an error in programming At least, that's what I remember it is, and an abend dump is like a core dump or crash dump on your modern system. If I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to shoot at the youngster :) From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 30 15:05:33 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:05:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051230210533.907AB57EE0@mail.wordstock.com> > > > >> > >> 7. Barring problems, a few hours later, your deck, etc. will be delivered > >> back to your desk with the abend dump that invariably seemed to result. > >> > > > > What is "abend"? > > ABnormal END > Basically, your program crashed for some reason, you could say > Something like a missing DASD or the wrong volume names could cause it, or > just an error in programming > > At least, that's what I remember it is, and an abend dump is like a core > dump or crash dump on your modern system. > Aaah.. Like a SIGSEGV! :) And you get a memory address which can sometimes help locating the problem with the help of your .map file... > If I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to shoot at the youngster :) I'll be the youngsterer... Cheers, Bryan From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 15:05:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:05:19 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20051230160519.3e942e84.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:56:49 -0500 "John Allain" wrote: > > And these days, Selectrics aren't expensive either. > > I hope everyone on the list understands that when things get real cheap, > you have to guess weather you will *ever* need one of whatever it is, > and buy it now. Marketplaces don't care about archival, 2 or 3 years > of something being cheap, and it will be gone. > That is somewhat true, but there are a lot of items that are 'really cheap' at University Surplus Property Auctions, and the University does not stop trying to sell them. The 'sale' is mandated by rules that say all 'capital equipment' in certain categories needs to be sold at auction. There are a lot of big hulking items of that kind at the auctions, and they end up going to metal salvage operators when nobody will bid. I have quite often ended up with a lot of big heavy items from bidding on a 'whole lot' after 'select an item' bidders are finished. There is always a table of Laser Printers and a table or two of Monitors that are sold this way, along with typewriters. If I hadn't 'selected' that nice Selectric for $3 it would have gone in a 'lot' to some scrapper. My opinion is that all the Selectric Typewriters will have been sold out of the University inventory before the University decides they are no longer worth liquidating at the auction. There are a limited number of Selectrics in the inventory (which creates a new rule corelary to the one you cited- 'when items are selling really cheap most of them may already have been sold out of the existing number of them and the market may be saturated') My observations do not apply as wholly to retail and/or even most private auction settings. I am often dismayed when I am the only bidder for almost no money on a big heavy-to-deal-with category of item at a private auction, because I know those big burly guys who move the stuff around prior to an auction probably won't sell that particular category of item at auction again. Although, it sometimes makes sense for the liquidator to sell big bulky items at whatever price they can get, because it's cheaper than the cost of disposal. In this context, at some sales you are NOT allowed to buy a big lot, then cherry-pick and leave most of the mess behind. That kind of thing happens, but it's terrible ettiquete and you're likely to face an unhappy Auction Manager the next time you attend (bidder numbers are recorded against items 'on the floor' and they KNOW who you are if you're dumping junk on them.) There should be a 'boatanchor FAQ' somewhere online that explores this topic (if there already isn't one it should be created) > John A. > > BTW, now is a great time to get PCMCIA SCSI adaptors, > by the above rule. > From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 30 15:07:48 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:07:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Dec 30, 2005 03:41:47 PM Message-ID: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > > 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. > > What do these coding forms look like? The coding forms I've seen (and used!) were for BASIC for the Color Computer. Looked quite a bit like graph paper, but for the Coco, it was broken up into 32-column width "chunks" (for lack of a better term) to match the width of the screen, and one would write each letter of the program into a single square. I think I got it more for the novelty than actual use. -spc (Might even still have some around somewhere ... ) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 15:07:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:07:47 -0500 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> References: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20051230160747.449bca80.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:04:40 -0500 M H Stein wrote: > >From: Roger Merchberger > >Subject: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project > >is canceled) > > >Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen may have mentioned these words: > > >[snippage] > > >>There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. > > >"Build your own" isn't hacker-friendly??? ;-) > > >http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php > > >Laterz, > >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > ------------------------ > Neat stuff; _Love_ the rotary dial cell phone... > I have pondered installing a rotary dial phone on our line here at home. I suspect, though, that it would REALLY mess up our DSL connection. > mike > > > > From kth at srv.net Fri Dec 30 15:29:27 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:29:27 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <43B5A6B7.7050907@srv.net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > >>>3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. >>> >>> >>What do these coding forms look like? >> >> > > The coding forms I've seen (and used!) were for BASIC for the Color >Computer. Looked quite a bit like graph paper, but for the Coco, it was >broken up into 32-column width "chunks" (for lack of a better term) to match >the width of the screen, and one would write each letter of the program into >a single square. I think I got it more for the novelty than actual use. > > > If you used the forms enough, you could eventually print 10 point using blank paper. > -spc (Might even still have some around somewhere ... ) > > > > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Dec 30 15:30:02 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:30:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: hobby cellular (was: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled)) In-Reply-To: <20051230160747.449bca80.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> <20051230160747.449bca80.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > I have pondered installing a rotary dial phone on our line here > at home. I suspect, though, that it would REALLY mess up our DSL > connection. Shouldn't. It'll probably eat all your REN though. Speaking of homebrewed cellphones, the hardest part will be getting the specs. Even with GSM, where the 3GPP has thankfully published everything for free, reading and understanding all of that is a mamoth undertaking. 9.02 Then again, you'll need at least a base station, MSC and protocol analyzer just to test the damned thing... the barrier to entry into voice telecom is still astronomic, and not likely to lower much if the current players have any say in the process. Alexey From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 30 11:26:44 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:26:44 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20051230213326.OOSE17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > At least, that's what I remember it is, and an abend dump is like a core > dump or crash dump on your modern system. It is - and if you don't know why it's called a "dump" you've never had to wade through one :-) -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Dec 30 15:38:29 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:38:29 -0600 Subject: where to buy a Selectric Message-ID: <79cfdc090b8e43ddbdc41459dca51b67@valleyimplants.com> Look at thrift/corporate surplus stores, and get a Correcting Selectric II - quite possibly the finest typewriter made. While you're at the surplus store, get a box of the ribbons (both typing and correction). Niether my dad nor myself have had to replace a belt yet, and he has a CSII from his office that dates to 1978. Excellent feel to the keyboard, good action response (typewriters are like pianos in this respect, some are good, some bad). From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 30 15:39:54 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:39:54 -0800 Subject: IBM 2741 ball element terminal / Epson FX-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5A92A.4050607@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Anyone have either of these in their collection? > >The former seemed fairly rare even in its day, while the latter was >mass produced yet I seem to never see it listed on anyone's collection >web page. > >I think I have an Epson FX-80 printer somewhere in a cabinet with a >busted tractor feed mechanism on one side. > > The University of Mo used them at all the main campus. They were available for some time on the scrap market around there. I saw some here in Los Angeles at one time, but they are not too popular because I believe they used custom type balls, not the standard typewriter ones. Or at least when I was attending UMR, none of the typewriters would use the 2741 type balls, probably by design. I used to have some FX-80's but got rid of it with some micro computer purge in the 80's because I used other printers at the time. Never thought of it for collection purposes. Jim From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 30 15:46:02 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:46:02 -0500 Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512301646.02437.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 05:57 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I > > have some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I haven't had much > > luck finding one so far... > > That number seems familiar fro some odd reason. I think it's some kind of > DRAM controller, but I've not founf the data sheet yet. Yes it is, and a datasheet for it showed up in my inbox not long after I posted that. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 15:55:19 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:55:19 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200512301355190541.1AC07423@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 3:41 PM bpope at wordstock.com wrote: >What do these coding forms look like? They all bear a family resemblance to one another, usually green. Here's one for IBM FORTRAN: http://www.atkielski.com/PDF/data/fortran.pdf Note one aspect of card-type programming that's largely a dim memory: Fixed-width fields. That "C" for comment in FORTRAN goes in column 6, not 5, not 1, not 7. Similarly, columns 73-80 are ignored by the compiler and 1-5 are reserved for statement labels. Statements exclusive of the label, start between column 7 and 72. A lot of languages, had more stringent placement requirements. An "80-80" listing was basically a printout of the card deck, column for colum. I think the term dates from the unit-record era, when a plugboard for something like a 407 accounting machine could be programmed to mix things up any way you wanted. I used to use one for FOTRAN that added spaces between columns 5-6, 6-7 and 72-73. Made things easier to read. This wasn't as bad as it sounds. If you took the time to punch up a "drum card" for the 026/029 keypunch, the "tab" key would zip you to the next field. Most programmers I knew kept a drum card (usually assembly for program 1 and FORTRAN for program 2) with their basic survival supplies (instruction reference card being an essential other). >What is "abend"? Abnormal end of program; a crash or ungraceful termination (e.g., the operator killed it because it was in an infinite loop). Depending on your termination options, you would receive a one page short form dump (the registers and the area around the last PC value) or a dump of your entire program area (could be a signifcant part of a box of paper). If you were an operating systems type, your abend dump was a "deadstart dump"; that is, a special program loaded as part of the boot process that would give you as much of the machine state before reboot as possible. If you were one of those unfortunates who were working on CDC 6600 with 4 MW of ECS, the whole shebang was about a box of paper, including PP dumps. If you were debugging a multi-machine cluster, it could run to more. The debugging tools in that case were paperclips and highlighters in various colors--and lots of coffee. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 15:55:45 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:55:45 -0700 Subject: IBM 2741 ball element terminal / Epson FX-80 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:39:54 -0800. <43B5A92A.4050607@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <43B5A92A.4050607 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > [IBM 2741s] are not too popular because I believe they used custom > type balls, not the standard typewriter ones. [...] There are multiple kinds of type balls. The IBM 2741 used ones that were interchangeable with certain models of typewriter (I know because I used to swap the type balls around between the printer and typewriters to get the type I wanted :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 30 15:53:05 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:53:05 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512301653.05488.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 29 December 2005 09:28 pm, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one? > > They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, > making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I > haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! I vaguely remember something about the Cromemco-badged one that came with my System Three being made by them. Only problem I remember with it is that the fan is getting kinda noisy... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 16:08:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:08:50 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512301408500115.1ACCD268@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 1:23 AM Richard wrote: >Which reminds me of an interesting story. These modems were only >rated for 1200 baud. We used them at that speed for several weeks >before I said "why not just turn up the baud rate and see what >happens?" -- one of those questions young teenagers ask because they >don't know any better :-). So we tried 2400 baud. Garbage. We then >tried 1800 baud and they worked flawlessly. Sweet! 50% bonus just >for being experimental! I remember doing exactly the same thing--those Racal-Vadic modems didn't seem to be too sensitive to data rate. I recall using one at 2000 baud with no problems, even though I couldn't get 2400 to work at all. Anyone remember the old Bell 103 modems? IIRC, the design was something like a big pile of passives and only a couple of transistors. But then, 300 baud was as good as they got. WE was pretty good at designing circuits that used the minimum of active components; IIRC, the DTMF touch-tone dialing circuit was a single transistor. Cheers, Chuck From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Dec 30 16:11:06 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:11:06 -0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512301355190541.1AC07423@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Note one aspect of card-type programming that's largely a dim memory: > Fixed-width fields. That "C" for comment in FORTRAN goes in column 6, not > 5, not 1, not 7. Similarly, columns 73-80 are ignored by the compiler and > 1-5 are reserved for statement labels. Statements exclusive of the label, > start between column 7 and 72. A lot of languages, had more stringent > placement requirements. Nearly correct - C for comment went in column 1. Column 6 was for continuation - anything other than a blank or zero in this column appended the contents of columns 7-72 to the previous card image for the compiler. You were allowed 19 continuation cards in Fortran 4 tho' even a very complex FORMAT statement rarely got that far. Andy From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Dec 30 16:26:17 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:26:17 -0500 Subject: weird modems Message-ID: <200512301726.17735.rtellason@blazenet.net> Since you guys are bringing up some unusual stuff with modems, I thought of something else I have in storage... Got a pair of units that are designed to be used on a 4-wire (!) leased line, or something. There's no "smarts" in the modem portion of it at all, though there is a separate board in there (with a separate serial connector) that has a z80 on it to do some sort of diagnostics. They're 9600 baud, but since they're set up for a 4-wire connection I don't forsee me having any possible use for them. Was thinking about scrapping them out, as they're in cases that are quite nice, but I'll entertain offers to the contrary. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 16:32:42 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:32:42 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <43B5A6B7.7050907@srv.net> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <43B5A6B7.7050907@srv.net> Message-ID: <200512301432420950.1AE2AF5D@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 2:29 PM Kevin Handy wrote: >If you used the forms enough, you could eventually print 10 point >using blank paper. One survival skill in programming was learning to block print legibly and quickly. Lines through zeroes and maybe a tick in the middle of a seven, serifs on capital I to distinguish it from numeric 1... To this day, I can still block print much faster than I can write script. And my script is illegible. Another skill was developing a good working relationship with the ladies (not sexist, just the way I remember it) in keypunch. Little gifts on birthdays and for Christmas, interest (feigned or not) in children, spouses and pets, etc. all went a long way toward making sure that your code was punched accurately and promptly. Get on the wrong side of these people and your life could become hell. Developing a good working relationship with the customer engineers (also called field engineers) would also get you a long way if you were in OS development. When a PPU on a CDC Cyber would hang, you could always bribe one into dragging his scope over to the system and reading the P counter for you (rebooting did not preserve it). If you kept a good relationshp, a CE was less likely to resent your existence the next time the printer pixies decided to grab a ribbon and tangle it up in the print train... Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 16:35:52 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:35:52 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:08:50 -0800. <200512301408500115.1ACCD268@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512301408500115.1ACCD268 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I remember doing exactly the same thing--those Racal-Vadic modems didn't > seem to be too sensitive to data rate. I recall using one at 2000 baud > with no problems, even though I couldn't get 2400 to work at all. These were rather large boxes -- about the size of a Yellow Pages phone book -- that I believe were supplied by the Phone company and operated on dedicated lines. (They never had a dialtone and only connected directly to our computing center across town.) They had a blue case with a white front panel and a couple toggle switches and some LEDs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 16:41:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:41:58 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200512301441580574.1AEB29C0@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 10:11 PM Andy Holt wrote: >Nearly correct - C for comment went in column 1. Quite right--another dropped mental bit! Column 1 was used for some dialects of pre-FORTRAN 4 for other things too. On the 7090 running FMS II, a "D" would get you double precision and "B" would result in a boolean evaluation. Did 'I' result in complex arithmetic? I can't recall. >Column 6 was for continuation - anything other than a blank or zero in this >column appended the contents of columns 7-72 to the previous card image for >the compiler. >You were allowed 19 continuation cards in Fortran 4 tho' even a very >complex FORMAT statement rarely got that far. Yet that 19 card limit was one of the most common "extensions" of FORTRAN compilers. Many set limits that were much higher. IIRC, almost any character in column 6 would be taken a continuation, except for '0'. The custom was to punch a 1 for the first continuation, 2 for the second continuation and so on--a zero in column 6 of the first card let you know that continuation cards followed. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 12:23:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:23:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 29, 5 07:28:27 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have one? I think i do (the name sounds familiar). If it's the unit I'm thinking of, it's a pale grey-ish case with a column of status LEDs on the front to the right of the CRT. And a seperate keyboard. IIRC it's controlled by an 8008. Mine has the unusual feature of a Hebrew character set (as well as the normal one), and I think it can be convinced to work right-to-left, but maybe only in the local editing/form filling mode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 12:32:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:32:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Dec 30, 5 00:49:50 am Message-ID: > >Also, there are times when I have to fill out a form or something else > >and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and > >bang it out in a few seconds... > > And then try to find an eraser to rub-out what you fscked up, grumble, > never find the eraser, reload new paper, keep banging, realize you made > another mistake... Ungh. Not to mention when you need to edit said document > 2 years later, instead of retyping the whole thing in again. It probably won't supprise anyone here to learn that I still use a manual typewriter sometimes. Yes, I'd love a Selectric (both to restore and to use), but I've not found one yet. And yes, I sue a word processor (TeX/LaTeX) too, when I think that's the more appropriate tool. If I want to write a long document, or something I want to e-mail out, or something I am going to want many copies of, or something I will want to edit later, then I use the word processor. If I just want to fill in a form, I use the typewriter. It's a lot easier than measuring the position on the page where I want to print something, and then convincing the computer to put it there. > Typewriters are like cats - I have nothing against them as long as I don't > have to have one. ;-) I have both. FWIW, I've yet to find a computer system as much fun as the local cat population. And (to tie in another thread), they keep the mice out of my computers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 13:08:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:08:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 30, 5 10:07:29 am Message-ID: > > > Am donderdag, 29.12.05, um 13:50 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Tony Duell: > > >> This list will not convince Tony otherwise, I also tried ... > > > > What bothers me is whu you want to convince me otherwise. > > Me, and the others probably also, are basically only pointing out that > there is a place for modern, non-hobbyist friendly technology too. I don;t dispute that. I do dispute that I have to use it. Anyther thread has been pointing out that typewriters still have uses. I agree. As do pens and pieces of paper. And as, of course, do woed processors. I use all 3 for different jobs. Well, maybe I am the only person here to still use a pen and paper notebook, but I've yet to find a portable computer that's as useful. Yes, I do use a palmtop comptuer (OK, an ancient one I just about understnad -- an HP95LX), but the pen and paper still has uses too... When i have a problem I look at various possible solutions, and take into account the fact that I will have to maintain the equipment, etc. Is it going to be better to get some new device (with all the attendant support provlems, learning-to-use-it problems, etc), it is better to modify something I have, to make something, or to go on with what I already have. So far, I've not ever found a problem that's needed a hacker-unfriendly computer to solve it. > There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. > Component level repair on those is impossible, even though I have the Why? OK, I'd not want to work on the RF side (too many risks of sending out spurious signals), but what is the prroblem, say, with replacing compoentns in the control circuit. They look like normal SMDs. > full schematics on mine.... Does that mean all mobile phones are bad > and not worth having ? I was given one, I use it very occasionally. And to be honest, I could easily live without it (and I could certianly live without those idiots on public transport who talk about nothing-of-significance for hours on end). > In the same line of thought, there is a place for a non-hacker friendly > modern PC, I do use mine as storage for all the PDF's releated to my > Classiccmp gear and my digital photos. Zippy response is nice to have > for these usage cases. Hmmm.. Neither of those would be applicable to me. I much prefer manuals on paper (I can't accomodate a reasonable display _and the device being repaired_ on my bench at the same time, I can't take a PC to bed and read manuals there (yes, I do read service manuals as bedtime reading). And I've said many times that I will consider a digital camera when it gives better results than my current camera. Please don't tell me how your camera is better than the Point-and-Shoot 35mm it replaced. I am not talking about that sort of camera. I am talking about a 5*4" sheet film camers. And yes, I can see the point of digital cameras, this does not mean I want one. > It is a case of using the right tools for the job : old machines when > you want to hack ,modern machine for productive use. > If you are claiming you can't do productive work with classic computers, then I cannot agree with you. In fact I suspect I've done more prodctive work with my old machines than most people have with their latest-and-greatest PCs. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 17:54:51 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:54:51 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:23:00 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > Does anyone have one? > > I think i do (the name sounds familiar). If it's the unit I'm thinking > of, it's a pale grey-ish case with a column of status LEDs on the front > to the right of the CRT. And a seperate keyboard. IIRC it's controlled by > an 8008. > > Mine has the unusual feature of a Hebrew character set (as well as the > normal one), and I think it can be convinced to work right-to-left, but > maybe only in the local editing/form filling mode. Is it this one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 17:59:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:59:41 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> References: <200512301057140100.1A1D688C@10.0.0.252> <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20051230185941.24c5cc83.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:41:47 -0500 (EST) bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) wrote: > > > > What do these coding forms look like? I have one tucked inside an old Western Electric Pay Phone Service Manual I got at an auction. The previous owner used it as a piece of scratch paper. Here, I just took a photo of it (it's a legal-size sheet so won't fit in the scanner). http://sasteven.multics.org/fortran/fortran-codesheet.jpg (do what you want with this public domain image. better to copy and save than link to it, it's not permanently on the web) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 18:10:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:10:31 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512301432420950.1AE2AF5D@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <43B5A6B7.7050907@srv.net> <200512301432420950.1AE2AF5D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20051230191031.6e382425.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:32:42 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 12/30/2005 at 2:29 PM Kevin Handy wrote: > > >If you used the forms enough, you could eventually print 10 point > >using blank paper. > > One survival skill in programming was learning to block print legibly and > quickly. Lines through zeroes and maybe a tick in the middle of a seven, > serifs on capital I to distinguish it from numeric 1... > My father retired after working at IBM for 27 years. He does not have a 'handwriting,' he block prints everything. It helps this that he is left handed. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 30 18:13:51 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:13:51 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 12/21/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Shugart, Rodime, Evotek, Disctron, Miniscribe, CDC, Priam, Prarietek, > Atasi...the list is endless. The only drive I really, really didn't like > was JTS. You obviously didn't get an original 6 MHz IBM PC-AT with the pre-installed 20MB CMI drive. I don't know if all CMI's 20MB drives were that bad or if IBM just said "We'll take that pile of bad 20MB drives off your hands." Damn drives sounded like an Apple II booting up when they were working properly.... which was never for long. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:03:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:03:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Dec 30, 5 03:04:40 pm Message-ID: > Neat stuff; _Love_ the rotary dial cell phone... If that's like the project in this month's Elektor magazine, all the interesting GSM stuff is in a ready-built module :-(. This hardly counts as building a cellular phone... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:09:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:09:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Dec 30, 5 04:07:48 pm Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > > > > 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. > > > > What do these coding forms look like? > > The coding forms I've seen (and used!) were for BASIC for the Color > Computer. Looked quite a bit like graph paper, but for the Coco, it was I know I have some of the BASIC coding forms for the TRS-80 model 1 around here somwehre. One side is a screen display layout sheet (divided up into the 64*16 matrix for characters and the 128*48 graphics matrix). the other side is for writing BASIC on. It has the usual 1-character-per-box bit for writing BASIC lines, and an area down the right hand side where you list the variables you've used. I can't remember the last time I used them, though. I should have some coding forms for the HP9100 calculator around here too, and maybe some for the HP67. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:17:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:17:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200512301408500115.1ACCD268@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 5 02:08:50 pm Message-ID: > Anyone remember the old Bell 103 modems? IIRC, the design was something > like a big pile of passives and only a couple of transistors. But then, > 300 baud was as good as they got. WE was pretty good at designing circuits > that used the minimum of active components; IIRC, the DTMF touch-tone > dialing circuit was a single transistor. I thought the touch-tone keypad was 2 transistors, one for the column frequencies, one for the row frequencies. But I've never seen one. As regards old/odd modems. The GPO 300 baud Modem (Modem 2B IIRC) was a metal case about 15" square and 6" high. Inside were 4 modles that slid in from the font. One was a PSU, one was the modulator, one the demodulator, and the last the control. The Control circuitry was relay based with a few transistors. The demodulator was a bit odd by today's standards. The incoming signal was filtered, then mixed with a local oscillator to shift it up in frequency. That was fed into an FM discriminator (I can't remember which one, it was one of the standard ones that I've seen in FM radios), the output of that went to a schmitt trigger and thesce to the RS232 output. The filters were a string of LC tuned circuits contained in a flat metal can about the size of a tobacco tin. I have a much more modern modem which, IIRC, does 1200 baud full-duplex, and uses a 8088 as the DSP (!). And a leased-line modem stuffed with interesting logic (some AMD 2900-series bit-slice parts and an 8*8 multiplier chip from what I remember) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 18:23:38 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:23:38 -0800 Subject: Seagate to Purchase Maxtor In-Reply-To: References: <43AA26EC.3010400@centurytel.net> <20051221201754.Q6352@shell.lmi.net> <011f01c606b1$ed45a3e0$2fcfbd41@game> <43AA3D22.1050105@mdrconsult.com> <200512212211200240.072AFC9B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512301623380766.1B483E63@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 4:13 PM Eric J Korpela wrote: >You obviously didn't get an original 6 MHz IBM PC-AT with the >pre-installed 20MB CMI drive. I don't know if all CMI's 20MB drives >were that bad or if IBM just said "We'll take that pile of bad 20MB >drives off your hands." Damn drives sounded like an Apple II booting >up when they were working properly.... which was never for long. Hmmm, I STILL have a working 20MB CMI drive. The noisy ones were the 100+MB Priams. All sorts of interesting sound effects. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 18:23:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:23:47 -0500 Subject: hobby cellular (was: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled)) In-Reply-To: References: <01C60D52.5CE61620@MSE_D03> <20051230160747.449bca80.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051230192347.3012f9a8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:30:02 +0000 (UTC) Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I have pondered installing a rotary dial phone on our line here > > at home. I suspect, though, that it would REALLY mess up our DSL > > connection. > > Shouldn't. It'll probably eat all your REN though. > > Speaking of homebrewed cellphones, the hardest part will be getting the > specs. Even with GSM, where the 3GPP has thankfully published everything > for free, reading and understanding all of that is a mamoth undertaking. > 9.02 > > Then again, you'll need at least a base station, MSC and protocol analyzer > just to test the damned thing... the barrier to entry into voice > telecom is still astronomic, and not likely to lower much if the current > players have any say in the process. > > Alexey The barrier is also high because of the relative shortage of experienced RF design engineers. In the modern era, everybody goes 'digital' and the arcane art of RF design looses out in the educational system. Companies compete to hire the good designers, and the designers with a knack for it are busy making a mint, probably too busy to do a 'hobby' project. I worked in telemetry for a biomedical device company, and have seen how 'coddled' a good RF Design engineer is when working on a critical project. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:32:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:32:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1802 problems Message-ID: Does anyone really know the RCA 1802 processor hardware? I am still debugging the microwriter, and have not got very far. I have an RCA user manual on the processor which seems quite comprehensive, I am asusming it's accurate. Now, according to that manual, the processor can be in one of 4 states (fetch, execute, interrupt responze, DMA), and which state it's in is output on 2 lines called SC0 and SC1. The INT/ line is high, both DMA IN/ and DMA OUT/ are also high. I can detect no gltiches on any of these signals. The clock is running, the bus looks active, etc. The problem is that I am getting active-high pulses on SC1. This, according to the data sheet means it's doing a DMA or interrupt response cycle. But why the heck should it? I thought it was a defective 1802 chip, but another one pulled from an old board shows identical behaviour (right down to locking up after typing 8 characters on the microwriter keyboard). I can't believe 2 have failed in exactly the same way. Unless of course this is a well-known problem. Any thoughts? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:41:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:41:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fischertechnik BBC Micro interface Message-ID: To cut to the end, does anyone have the software disk for the Subject: line? An explanation... About 20 years ago, there was a Fischertechnik robotics kit. This contains the usual blocks, gears, etc, 2 small motors, 3 lamps, an electromagnet, 8 switches and 2 pots. And no other electonic parts. There were various interfaces sold for this, at the time they were very expensive and not suitable for the machines I had. So I did the obvious thing and boilt my own... But I have now bought the one for the BBC Micro (Part numbrer 30 564) (it turned up on E-bay with a reasonable B-I-N). It arrived exactly as described (brand new, still in the shrinkwrap). In the box was the interface module, the user manual, and a supplement to that. No software disk, although the manual makes reference to one. Fortunately, the most important program, the low-level driver that talks to the interface via the Beeb's user port is listed in the manual, so it is possible to use the thing. But I'd still like to have the demo programs for the models described in the robotics kit manual. As regards the interface itself, I've not seriously looked at it yet. It's mostly 4000-series CMOS, with a 4014 shift register for the switch inputs, a 4094 shift register driving motor control ICs for the outputs, and a 556 timer for the pot inputs (the driver program seems to use one of the timers in the VIA that controls the user port). Looks very hackable. -tony From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 19:09:16 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:09:16 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230213326.OOSE17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On 12/30/05 12:26 PM, "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > >> At least, that's what I remember it is, and an abend dump is like a core >> dump or crash dump on your modern system. > > It is - and if you don't know why it's called a "dump" you've never had to > wade through one :-) Punch card dump or printout? :) I've got an abend dump on punch cards stored in a few boxes in the basment for novelty value... The novelty that A.) it took 3 boxes and B.) they did it on punch cards :) From allain at panix.com Fri Dec 30 19:10:52 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:10:52 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06><200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252><20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net><004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20051230160519.3e942e84.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00b301c60da7$0bc1fd40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > There should be a 'boatanchor FAQ' somewhere online that explores > this topic (if there already isn't one it should be created) Haven't heard anything from any collector about causation of a permanent back problem from our hobby, for one possible problem with rooting around pallette loads of scrap. Luckily I'm not at this point yet. Kinda hope you're not too. John A. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 19:20:30 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:30 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines Message-ID: Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 19:29:50 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:29:50 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions Message-ID: I hear everyone talking about storing their collections and whatnot. But what about HOW they're stored? Or, if not collections, how you keep your equipment... I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ How's everyone else keep their stuff? Hopefully a little better then I.. :) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 19:29:53 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:29:53 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:10:52 -0500. <00b301c60da7$0bc1fd40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <00b301c60da7$0bc1fd40$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > > There should be a 'boatanchor FAQ' somewhere online that explores > > this topic (if there already isn't one it should be created) > > Haven't heard anything from any collector about causation of a > permanent back problem from our hobby, for one possible problem > with rooting around pallette loads of scrap. Luckily I'm not at this > point yet. Kinda hope you're not too. A friend of mine has a motorized handtruck for moving his arcade game machines. While its handy for very heavy items, it also weighs about 150 lbs on its own. For lighter items I found a plain handtruck was useful. The cinch-down tiestraps you can get in the automotive department of places like Wal-Mart are very useful for securing items on casters inside a trailer or against the handtruck. I recently unloaded a VAXserver 4000/300 from my car into my basement myself using a manual handtruck and cinch straps. I was also able to get a Fujitsu M2448 9-track drive into my basement the same way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Dec 30 19:47:45 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:47:45 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <20051230160519.3e942e84.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <09e901c60cde$d16a1060$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200512291911550285.16BBEE85@10.0.0.252> <20051229233410.52d5dfd3.chenmel@earthlink.net> <004201c60d51$43cc1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20051230160519.3e942e84.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051231014745.A0C24BA480B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > [Buying stuff at industrial/military/gov't auctions] > There should be a 'boatanchor FAQ' somewhere online that explores > this topic (if there already isn't one it should be created) Don Lancaster covers many aspects of real world surplus auctions at his website, http://www.tinaja.com/, when he talks about sources for surplus test equipment etc. He mostly talks about government/military/edu surplus (where the terms are up-front but not always friendly and in the case of the gov't and military are completely inflexible), and has a couple notes about sleazeball commercial surplus auctioneers/practices. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 19:51:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:51:56 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512301751560377.1B9913F9@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 12:17 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I thought the touch-tone keypad was 2 transistors, one for the column >frequencies, one for the row frequencies. But I've never seen one. No sir, it used only a single transistor. Transistors were viewed as the least reliable part of a telephone and so usage was minimized. Here's a schematic of the dial on one of them: http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/images/2526bm_schematic_2.gif I remember learning this from a friend and being more than a little skeptical. But 'tis true - a dual mode oscillator. There's also a reference on this forum: http://www.castalk.com/ftopic8083-15.html I think WE doesn't get nearly enough credit for creating some really bulletproof designs. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Dec 30 20:01:22 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:01:22 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5E672.5020604@mindspring.com> Richard wrote: >Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > In the DEC world, PDP-11 11/34 and 11/44 FPPs, 11/44 CIS, 11/74 CIS, UDA50 disk controller, VAX 11/730 CPU, PDP-10 KS10 CPU were all 2901 based bit slice implementations. Most of the main CPUs (PDP-11, VAX) used 74181 ALU slices (or later on gate arrays for the VAXen). IIRC the Three Rivers PERQ was also a 2901 based design. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 30 20:09:13 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:09:13 -0700 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:29:50 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Gary Sparkes writes: > But what about HOW they're stored? I have items stored on shelving or foldable tables in my basement. > I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally > got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it sorted? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 20:14:35 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:14:35 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/30/05 9:09 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > In article , > Gary Sparkes writes: > >> But what about HOW they're stored? > > I have items stored on shelving or foldable tables in my basement. > >> I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally >> got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ > > Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it sorted? :-) These were the after.... Obviously not done, but this was a weeks worth of effort to get stuff sorted into a my room / basement type categorization From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 20:18:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:18:38 -0600 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5EA7E.6070808@oldskool.org> Gary Sparkes wrote: >>>I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally >>>got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ >> >>Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it sorted? :-) > > These were the after.... What model of computer was the guitar? ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 20:23:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:23:13 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5EB91.1050706@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >>Aslo did not the C64 and Amiga have a genlock option for tv signals? > > There was definately a genlock option for the Amiga, dunno about the > C=64, though. Amiga genlocks were somewhat crappy though; most were composite only. I only know of one Y/C genlock. I think it took the Video Toaster to truly make Amigas 100% viable for broadcast. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 20:24:42 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:24:42 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B5EBEA.2090608@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: >>Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? > > http://sasteven.multics.org/8088page.html > > (it has gone dormant at the moment) Wasn't a book written about this? Hold on... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0827370695/qid=1135995852/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2901743-3434460?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 "Build Your Own Microcomputer Based on the Intel 8088 by Walter Fuller" -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From rcini at optonline.net Fri Dec 30 20:33:30 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:33:30 -0500 Subject: Basilisk II problems Message-ID: <000001c60db2$96e493a0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just upgraded systems to a Windows XP box and I now have an issue with Basilisk (Mac emulator) complaining about not finding the ASPI layer software. I made sure I had the latest files from Adaptec and installed them as administrator. The rub is that without this, the CDROM will not work. This is a feature that worked when I had it installed on my Win2k box. Not much software is involved (two files) and the Adaptec utility reports that everything is A-OK. Has anyone experienced this problem and if so, how did you solve it? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Dec 30 20:41:43 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:41:43 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200512302141.43943.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Friday 30 December 2005 5:11 pm, Andy Holt wrote: > > Note one aspect of card-type programming that's largely a dim memory: > > Fixed-width fields. That "C" for comment in FORTRAN goes in column 6, > > not 5, not 1, not 7. Similarly, columns 73-80 are ignored by the > > compiler and 1-5 are reserved for statement labels. Statements exclusive > > of the label, start between column 7 and 72. A lot of languages, had > > more stringent placement requirements. > > Nearly correct - C for comment went in column 1. > Column 6 was for continuation - anything other than a blank or zero in this > column appended the contents of columns 7-72 to the previous card image for > the compiler. > You were allowed 19 continuation cards in Fortran 4 tho' even a very > complex FORMAT statement rarely got that far. I still a box of cards and my RPG and COBOL templates around here somewhere. I wish I could remember what the cards were that we stuck in front of the program deck. It didn't seem as long as the JCL I used latter on. I suspect that there was a system PROC that we were making use of. -- From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 20:48:53 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:48:53 -0600 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5F195.6080902@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >>I have had a TERRIBLE problem with mice out in the garage. I've >>learned that you NEVER put a PC out there without blank card >>brackets in ALL open card slots and drives installed in ALL open >>media holes. [...] > > This reminds me of an Apple ][ that was brought in for repair... these > didn't have any real barrier in the back of the case where the slots > were. Inside was a mouse nest :-) In my case, it was spider's nests and smoke damage. Maybe someone here will get a chuckle out of this: http://www.oldskool.org/shrines/diary Scroll to the end to see the "March 1991" and later entries. Hey, I know it wasn't a PDP-8 or some goofy Cromemco hardware, but it was my first owned-by-me-not-the-university-or-library personal computer and it still holds a special place in my heart. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 20:57:17 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:57:17 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B5F38D.3060009@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and > bang it out in a few seconds than it is to turn on the computer, You turn yours *off*? (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 21:00:51 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:00:51 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512300614.BAA01242@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <200512300614.BAA01242@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B5F463.5030709@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > Not, I daresay, when you have a paper form to fill out. Then you have > all the registration issues of making sure each bit of text prints out > in the correct place on the page to fall into its field on the form, > without the benefit of being able to just adjust it on-screen until it > fits. You've obviously never used a formfiller. You need one scratch copy of the form; stick it in the printer and the formfiller prints a grid out onto the page. You can then use the grid numbers to tell the formfiller where the fields are. Perfect results every time, no scanner required. What, you think I'm going to manually type hundreds of forms when all my information is in a database? :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 21:06:35 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:06:35 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512301057140100.1A1D688C@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <20051230102658.5142a944.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200512301057140100.1A1D688C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B5F5BB.6020309@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 1. Think about what you want to do. > > 2. Chart it out (flowchart if you were a stickler, but otherwise draw some > boxes on a sheet of paper to remind you. This should always be performed no matter the year/environment/skill. That being said, I do prefer to write essays, code assembler, and other tasks on my 8088, because the occaisional pauses in processing give me time to "cure" my thinking a little. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Dec 30 21:33:59 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:33:59 -0500 Subject: Housing collections In-Reply-To: <43B5EBEA.2090608@oldskool.org> References: <20051228200901.50bc58e8.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20051229173020.39a2bf25.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B5EBEA.2090608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051230223359.276f2cfa.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:24:42 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > >>Pray tell, what is the "Intel 8088 project"? > > > > http://sasteven.multics.org/8088page.html > > > > (it has gone dormant at the moment) > > Wasn't a book written about this? Hold on... > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0827370695/qid=1135995852/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-2901743-3434460?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 > > "Build Your Own Microcomputer Based on the Intel 8088 by Walter Fuller" There seem to be a lot of books on the topic. I reference some of them on the project page. The one you cite should be added to the list. Tonight I am having my first real 'immersion' into gschem as a schematic capture program. And I am really impressed. It has a decent parts library and the parts are plaintext files so it's fairly easy to edit and add your own. I'm presently redrawing the Vesta SBC88A schematic as an exercize and will be re-entering the schematic for my 8088 SBC soon as well. There are some eye openers for me in the design of the SBC88A. I was of the impression that the 8088 had a rather fussy clock requirement that necessitated the 8284 chip (to arrive at a clock signal with the proper duty cycle). Vesta just uses the popular dual-inverter-and-crystal clock and feeds the signal from that right into the 8088 clock pin. One of the things I would like to 'design out' of my current design is the use of any 'special' chips except the 8088 cpu itself. 8284 chips are much rarer than the 8088 processor, and more expensive that it when you can find them. I hope 'vintage chip' designs like this are considered ontopic to the list. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 30 21:44:11 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 19:44:11 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512302141.43943.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <000201c60d8d$ee5f7160$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <200512302141.43943.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200512301944110549.1BFFD8F9@10.0.0.252> On 12/30/2005 at 9:41 PM Mike wrote: >I wish I could remember what the cards were that we stuck in front of the >program deck. It didn't seem as long as the JCL I used latter on. >I suspect that there was a system PROC that we were making use of. Early S/360 JCL was pretty simple, particularly on the "downlevel" OSes like DOS/360. A "load and go" FORTRAN job on DOS could be as simple as: //JOB //EXEC FORTRAN ...program source /* //EXEC LNKEDT //EXEC ...data for program /* /& On CDC SCOPE JCL was also pretty simple; the same job was roughly like this. Note that the JCL for the entire job comprises the first data record: JOB card with octal time limit(!) RUN(G). 7-8-9 card source program 7-8-9 card data 6-7-8-9 card From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 30 22:04:04 2005 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:04:04 -0800 Subject: Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <200512310347.jBV3kvHl090838@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512310347.jBV3kvHl090838@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43B60334.1010506@sbcglobal.net> The Tektronix 4052 and 4054 series table top graphics computers were also 2901 based. Bob Message: 14 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:30 -0700 From: Richard Subject: AMD bit-slice machines To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? -- From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 22:19:41 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:19:41 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B606DD.4030402@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > And yes, I **sue** a word processor Freudian slip? :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 22:21:39 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:21:39 -0600 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512300805.DAA01877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512300805.DAA01877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B60753.6050102@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > All ye who enter here: > Most of the code in this module > is twisted beyond belief! > > Tread carefully. > > If you think you understand it, > You Don't, > So Look Again. When I was young, I thought stuff like that was the bomb. Now, it irritates me -- eclectic and convoluted does not equal "cool" when I'm the guy who has to understand or fix it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 30 22:24:25 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:24:25 -0600 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051230085240.C2A8273029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20051230085240.C2A8273029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <43B607F9.2020603@oldskool.org> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I've written some specialized input routines---mainly to handle dated > numerical input (okay, a program to process lottery numbers, years before > the Internet made such information readily available). But not general > purpose text editing. You should; it's quite fun depending on what your needs are. I coded a VI clone for my personal use on my 8088 because the clones (CALVIN) didn't have enough featuers or work properly, and the Unix-to-DOS ports (Elvis) were so. slow. you. waited. three. seconds. after. each. keypress. for. feedback. before. the. keyboard. buffer. overflowed. Quite annoying. To this day I have no idea what Elvis does when you hit a keystroke (never looked at the code) but it must be much more than simply inserting a character! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 30 22:34:38 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:34:38 -0800 Subject: Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B60334.1010506@sbcglobal.net> References: <200512310347.jBV3kvHl090838@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B60334.1010506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <43B60A5E.9030109@msm.umr.edu> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The Tektronix 4052 and 4054 series table top graphics computers were > also 2901 based. > > Bob > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? Ultimate who made a Pick system for the Honeywell and Dec processor families under license, used the 2900 bitslices extensivly. As a side note, a friend had a company, Hilevel Technology, who made trace and rom simulators, as well as development tools (configurable assembler) for people using the bitslices. you will see them frequently on Ebay, and they usually are quite cheep. they are designed to be loaded via an RS232 port from a host, and would simulate different rom sizes. Some systems had trace units that could be added to trace address bus activity, and provide a disassembled trace. Also you could buy more boards and trace other bus information if you desired. we had 16 bit and 32 bit processors for the honeywell. There were 16 bit coprocessors that were used with dec. The host honeywell system was the DPS/6 or "Level 6" system that ran a version of GCOS when native. We booted a monitor that ran the ultimate I/O on the level 6, and booted the Pick system on the co processor. Jim From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 21:31:37 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:31:37 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? Message-ID: <01C60D9C.E8E949E0@MSE_D03> Anybody willing to pay shipping from Toronto? ... didn't think so... mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 21:52:34 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:52:34 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals Message-ID: <01C60D9C.E9F5D7E0@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message-------------- Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:53:05 -0500 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Beehive terminals >On Thursday 29 December 2005 09:28 pm, Richard wrote: >> Does anyone have one? >> >> They apparently were crappy designs and tended to die fairly readily, >> making them hard to find. They were manufactured in Salt Lake, but I >> haven't seen one since I used them in Delaware around 1980! >I vaguely remember something about the Cromemco-badged one that came with my >System Three being made by them. Only problem I remember with it is that the >fan is getting kinda noisy... ---------------Reply--------------- I believe you're right and the Cromemco 3101/3102s were custom-programmed Beehives. BTW, I'm scrapping a Beehive DM-1S on the off chance that someone needs any parts (no kbd, case or ROMS). mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 22:53:09 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:53:09 -0500 Subject: Burroughs L-series Message-ID: <01C60D9C.EBE43A60@MSE_D03> A couple of years ago I met a couple of people on here that had Burroughs L-series computers, but lost track of them in the meantime. (I think there's an L5000 at Bletchley, but they probably don't need or want anything). I'm about to toss out the last remnants of my L stuff (programming manuals, memory cards, tape drive, TD-700 display, etc.) If there's anyone out there still interested, send me an email off-list before they go into landfill. m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 22:11:59 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:11:59 -0500 Subject: hobby cellular (was: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled)) Message-ID: <01C60D9C.EAE87540@MSE_D03> -------------Original message------------- Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:30:02 +0000 (UTC) From: Alexey Toptygin Subject: hobby cellular (was: Re: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled)) On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >Speaking of homebrewed cellphones, the hardest part will be getting the >specs. Even with GSM, where the 3GPP has thankfully published everything >for free, reading and understanding all of that is a mamoth undertaking. >9.02 >Then again, you'll need at least a base station, MSC and protocol analyzer >just to test the damned thing... the barrier to entry into voice >telecom is still astronomic, and not likely to lower much if the current >players have any say in the process. > Alexey ----------------Reply--------------- Unless, like Tony, you want to build it out of discrete transistors, it looks pretty trivial. The detailed description of how they converted a rotary desk phone into a cell phone (complete with the original ringer!) makes fascinating reading (nice pictures, too). http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php Too bad it's too late for Xmas; for only $399 you could have asked your SO to put one under the tree. BTW, they also have a $10 USB<>RS-232 converter which might interest someone. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 22:54:29 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:54:29 -0500 Subject: weird modems Message-ID: <01C60D9C.ECCDB000@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message---------------- Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 17:26:17 -0500 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: weird modems >Since you guys are bringing up some unusual stuff with modems, I thought of >something else I have in storage... >Got a pair of units that are designed to be used on a 4-wire (!) leased line, >or something. ---------------------Reply----------------- Speaking of... I've got a few of those as well (even the grey rotary data phone to go with them), although I suspect they're < 9600 bd; also some line drivers and "Steamer" mux/demux's; just the thing for you guys with the separate buildings - lets you run a single 4-wire cable between your terminal(s) and the hardware collection in the "museum" out back. Also a couple of Centronics-type parallel printer extenders (up to 50' or so of phone cable between computer & printer ports) so you can keep the printer in your living room. Any interest, email off-list. mike (in Toronto) From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Dec 30 22:57:29 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:57:29 -0500 Subject: Coding forms & stuff Message-ID: <01C60D9C.EDB10B20@MSE_D03> >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 15:41:47 -0500 (EST) >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) >Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) >> 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. >What do these coding forms look like? >Cheers, >Bryan --------------- Want some? RPG, Cobol (your choice of green or blue) or (_really_ obscure) Burroughs SL5 Assembler? I use the backs for scratch pads... Ah yes, the detritus from my past... How about some line printer layout forms, complete with carriage control tape layout down the left side? Flow-chart forms & templates? Edge-punched cards? (Like 80 col punched cards but smaller and fan-folded, to be read & punched with PPT equipment). 96-"column" cards? (About 1/3 the size of an 80 col card, with binary punches similar to PPT). Mag cards (same size as 80 col card, but made of same stuff as floppy disks)? Also 2 readers for same? Digital cassettes (with the flip-over write protect tabs & BOT/EOT holes) and a drive for same? Some mag stripe ledger cards (_DUAL_ stripe, at that! - fond memories of loading programs with ledger cards...)? A SLAFAC (Striped-Ledger- Automatic-Form-Aligning-Carriage) to go with them? BTW, anybody else out there have any experience working with mag-stripe ledger systems? They actually had some advantages over disk-based systems, especially the ability to look up data off-line (assuming of course that you have an auto-reader and tape or disk storage as well). A friend of mine works in an office that actually still uses a manual ledger system. I thought it would be a neat project to emulate a mag-stripe system: print bar codes on the cards, install a little scanner on the printer to look up the corresponding data on disk as the card feeds in and away you go. Unfortunately, I can't talk her management into it... :) mike From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Dec 30 23:19:07 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:19:07 -0500 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B614CB.1060807@jcwren.com> Tony, you may want to ask in the cosmacelf group on yahoo.com. Bob Armstrong and a few others are very knowledgable of the intimate details of the 1802. --jc Tony Duell wrote: >Does anyone really know the RCA 1802 processor hardware? > >I am still debugging the microwriter, and have not got very far. I have >an RCA user manual on the processor which seems quite comprehensive, I am >asusming it's accurate. > >Now, according to that manual, the processor can be in one of 4 states >(fetch, execute, interrupt responze, DMA), and which state it's in is >output on 2 lines called SC0 and SC1. > >The INT/ line is high, both DMA IN/ and DMA OUT/ are also high. I can >detect no gltiches on any of these signals. The clock is running, the bus >looks active, etc. > >The problem is that I am getting active-high pulses on SC1. This, >according to the data sheet means it's doing a DMA or interrupt response >cycle. But why the heck should it? > >I thought it was a defective 1802 chip, but another one pulled from an >old board shows identical behaviour (right down to locking up after >typing 8 characters on the microwriter keyboard). I can't believe 2 have >failed in exactly the same way. Unless of course this is a well-known >problem. > >Any thoughts? > >-tony > > > From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Dec 30 23:22:03 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:22:03 -0500 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B6157B.9060703@jcwren.com> Oh, also the SC0/SC1 states are only valid on TPA. Does your datasheet call that out? --jc Tony Duell wrote: >Does anyone really know the RCA 1802 processor hardware? > >I am still debugging the microwriter, and have not got very far. I have >an RCA user manual on the processor which seems quite comprehensive, I am >asusming it's accurate. > >Now, according to that manual, the processor can be in one of 4 states >(fetch, execute, interrupt responze, DMA), and which state it's in is >output on 2 lines called SC0 and SC1. > >The INT/ line is high, both DMA IN/ and DMA OUT/ are also high. I can >detect no gltiches on any of these signals. The clock is running, the bus >looks active, etc. > >The problem is that I am getting active-high pulses on SC1. This, >according to the data sheet means it's doing a DMA or interrupt response >cycle. But why the heck should it? > >I thought it was a defective 1802 chip, but another one pulled from an >old board shows identical behaviour (right down to locking up after >typing 8 characters on the microwriter keyboard). I can't believe 2 have >failed in exactly the same way. Unless of course this is a well-known >problem. > >Any thoughts? > >-tony > > > From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Dec 30 23:35:07 2005 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:35:07 -0600 Subject: Eclipse MV/7800-U Mini Advice? Message-ID: <9e2403920512302135j1fb5f9b2rcf11590c42b53267@mail.gmail.com> Hi List, I am the proud owner of what appears by the papers glued to the CPU rack cabinet to be a Data General Eclipse MV-7800/U Mini. It's in twin rack units, the CPU on one side, the Cipher Data 800/1600 tape drive and twin Century Data M315-1 fixed disk units on the other. Problem is, I've found very little information online. There's one Italian site that contains quite a few goodies relating to Novas and Eclipses in general, and one German description of a similar machine. But nothing really in-depth... I've also got an interesting quandary: The CPU rack unit is from a DG Nova 4 (Turquoise stickers and all), yet the primary CPU board seems to match an Italian site picture of an MV7800's. The whole assembly was packaged by World Computer Corporation (Serial Number 303), the DG faceplates removed, and everything but the tape drive covered in smoked plexiglass front panels. This brings me to my primary point to the e-mail: Is there anyone here familiar with these computers still? I'm currently working on inventorying the machine physically, taking snapshots and marking cables, cleaning everything, along with trying to find any information online before I run the power cables (~55 amps seem to be required) and begin trying to revive it. I can post the contents of most of the external paperwork I've found on the unit, along with some pictures, if it's needed -- I'm trying to keep very thorough notes as I go along. This is an interesting challenge for me, especially since I've primarily been refurbishing older microcomputers (1976 to 1990-era machines). I'd like to get in touch with people who know the machine and its peripherals, and might offer helpful advice as I go about the literally back-breaking tasks. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 30 23:45:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:45:42 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <01C60D9C.E8E949E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C60D9C.E8E949E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <43B61B06.40605@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: >Anybody willing to pay shipping from Toronto? > >... didn't think so... > > > Yes, But I don't need a Selectric. :D Anything else vintage for sale -- no wives or mother inlaws please! >mike > > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 00:31:15 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:31:15 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 20:34:38 -0800. <43B60A5E.9030109@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 00:33:54 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:33:54 -0700 Subject: Coding forms & stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:57:29 -0500. <01C60D9C.EDB10B20@MSE_D03> Message-ID: In article <01C60D9C.EDB10B20 at MSE_D03>, M H Stein writes: > >> 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. > > >What do these coding forms look like? > > Want some? RPG, Cobol (your choice of green or blue) or (_really_ obscure) > Burroughs SL5 Assembler? I use the backs for scratch pads... > [...] I'd love to see scans of them :-). I never used them myself, but I had colleagues at the time that wrote out their FORTRAN IV code longhand on coding pads. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 00:56:27 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 23:56:27 -0700 Subject: anyone have a line on a batch of serial terminals? Message-ID: I'm looking for about 20-40 units of serial terminal, with 20 being the bare minimum that I need for the project. Realistically, spares will be needed, so more than 20 units are preferred. A more modern vintage preferred. Something reliable. All units should be the same color (amber/green) phosphor and have the same size CRT. In this particular situation I'm looking for something cheap, cheap, cheap, not something collectible. They will be repurposed as functioning components in a large rack-mount project I'm working on. Originally I was going to do this with a bunch of old PCs, but only recently it occurred to me that using a bunch of say Wyse 50 terminals would be a better solution. I'm thinking someplace like a bank or whatnot that replaces all of its serial terminals with PCs in an upgrade and dumps them all at once. I see *tons* of palettes of VGA monitors these days, but rarely do I see palettes of terminals and the onesy-twosy places are still catering to a replacement market so they charge an arm and a leg. Any ideas on how to find something like this? Or do I have to keep waiting until noone is using terminals at all, not even in the 3rd party market? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Dec 31 01:19:46 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:19:46 +0100 Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. >> Component level repair on those is impossible, even though I have the > > Why? OK, I'd not want to work on the RF side (too many risks of sending > out spurious signals), but what is the prroblem, say, with replacing > compoentns in the control circuit. They look like normal SMDs. A 400+ pin MCU/DSP in a micro BGA package, and no accessible lead whatsoever. No way of attaching a scope or logic analyzer. And they are a pain to realign and resolder if you have to replace them. Definitly not hackerfriendly. If they were, somebody would have made a RISC PC with one. Regards, Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Dec 31 01:21:17 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:21:17 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0876134A-79CE-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zaterdag, 31.12.05, um 02:20 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Richard: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? My Data General micronova MP/200 is also 2901 based. 2901 were quit common at one stage. Jos From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 31 01:45:55 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:45:55 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) > It was thus said that the Great Bryan Pope once stated: > > > > > 3. Code up your task using a no. 2 pencil on a pile of coding forms. > > > > What do these coding forms look like? > > The coding forms I've seen (and used!) were for BASIC for the Color > Computer. Looked quite a bit like graph paper, but for the Coco, it was > broken up into 32-column width "chunks" (for lack of a better term) to match > the width of the screen, and one would write each letter of the program into > a single square. I think I got it more for the novelty than actual use. > The layout depended greatly on which language they were to be used for. The most "structured" one I know, is RPG, where everything had to be written in specific columns. Other forms would normally be 80 columns wide, but vertically divided. For Cobol, you could see e.g. that the first 3 columns were blank, the next 3 numbered from 010 to 300 or so, then a divider between between 15 and 16 (IIRC), and again "around" col. 73 (marking for Continuation Line). We would also use special program cards for the card punch (IBM 029 etc); so we could skip to specific columns Oh yeah, those were the times... Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 31 01:48:09 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:48:09 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) References: <20051230204147.5154557616@mail.wordstock.com> <20051230213326.OOSE17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <003d01c60dde$8b3a6a80$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Dunfield" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) > > > At least, that's what I remember it is, and an abend dump is like a core > > dump or crash dump on your modern system. > > It is - and if you don't know why it's called a "dump" you've never had to > wade through one :-) > > When we had our first exhibition in 1988 or so, there was a start-up company called "Dump Data", where the attached the meaning of "low price" to "dump" I dont think they sold a lot to the mainframe community.. :-) Nico From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 01:56:05 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:56:05 -0700 Subject: 2 Inmac 7724 Rigid Media 2.5 MB Disc Cartridges NOS NIB Message-ID: Item: 8744955990 on ebay These look like RL01 packs, but RL01s are 5 MB ea. and these are reportedly 2.5 MB ea. What drive are they for? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 31 02:11:19 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:11:19 +0100 Subject: 2 Inmac 7724 Rigid Media 2.5 MB Disc Cartridges NOS NIB References: Message-ID: <000e01c60de1$c800b4d0$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 8:56 AM Subject: 2 Inmac 7724 Rigid Media 2.5 MB Disc Cartridges NOS NIB > Item: 8744955990 on ebay > > These look like RL01 packs, but RL01s are 5 MB ea. and these are > reportedly 2.5 MB ea. > > What drive are they for? > -- They look identical to the cartridges used on Philips 6875(?) disk drives. One platter, hard sectored. The drive also could accomodate a "high density" version, with was a whopping 5 MB Nico From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 04:55:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 02:55:29 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 8:45 AM Nico de Jong wrote: >vertically divided. For Cobol, you could see e.g. that the first 3 columns >were blank, the next 3 numbered from 010 to 300 or so, then a divider >between between 15 and 16 (IIRC), and again "around" col. 73 (marking for >Continuation Line). IIRC, the first six columns were "programmer sequence numbers"; ( i.e., the compiler didn't really care about them, but would issue a warning if they were out of order) divided into two groups of three (1-3 were the page number, 4-6 were the line number). Most folks just left them blank. Column 7 was the continuation; an asterisk in this column signified a comment card; any other non-blank signified a continuation. Area "A" started in columns 8-11 (Used for divison and section headers and paragraph names and 01 and FD level items, etc.); Area B (used for everything else) started in column 12. And, as in the case of most other card-oriented languages, 73-80 were reserved for sequence numbers or other identification, should you drop the box containing your source code. The continuation scheme in COBOL was different from FORTRAN. Since COBOL is sentence-based (approximately), statements could continue from one card to the next with no special consideration, much like 'C'. You needed the continuation column only if you were writing a long character literal. I don't believe that COBOL allowed for continued numeric literals. In spite of its starting out as a language using more-or-less English sentence syntax, COBOL is a tough language to learn because it's quite large, particularly if you consider all of the variations of data types and statements (e.g., how many variations of the INSPECT statement can you think of?). Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 31 05:22:52 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:22:52 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org><003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> > On 12/31/2005 at 8:45 AM Nico de Jong wrote: > > >vertically divided. For Cobol, you could see e.g. that the first 3 columns > >were blank, the next 3 numbered from 010 to 300 or so, then a divider > >between between 15 and 16 (IIRC), and again "around" col. 73 (marking for > >Continuation Line). > > IIRC, the first six columns were "programmer sequence numbers"; ( i.e., the > compiler didn't really care about them, but would issue a warning if they > were out of order) divided into two groups of three (1-3 were the page > number, 4-6 were the line number). Most folks just left them blank. Right. > Column 7 was the continuation; an asterisk in this column signified a > comment card; Right again, I think my memory bits are rotting a bit. any other non-blank signified a continuation. Area "A" > started in columns 8-11 (Used for divison and section headers and > paragraph names and 01 and FD level items, etc.); Area B (used for > everything else) started in column 12. And, as in the case of most other > card-oriented languages, 73-80 were reserved for sequence numbers or other > identification, should you drop the box containing your source code. Right. I once made up a deck-copying "program" for the IBM 517 (or was it 519, the card reproducing punch) You could toss in your unnumbered ( or numbered, but with "holes" in the sequence, or whatever), and it would produce a new deck, but without print. Off to the punch room, where they had some 029/129's which could read the cards and print on the top line. Those were the days... > In spite of its starting out as a language using more-or-less English > sentence syntax, COBOL is a tough language to learn because it's quite > large, particularly if you consider all of the variations of data types > and statements (e.g., how many variations of the INSPECT statement can you > think of?). > It's a long time since I used INSPECT. I can only remember something with INSPECT ... SPACES...., but those bits have rotted away... Apart from that, COBOL is a nice language, if you keep away from the more sinister things like INSPECT, ALTER TO PROCEED TO, REDEFINES in more then 2 levels.... Some nice things are GO TO DEPENDING ON (if you use it carefully), PERFORM VARYING (but that got _ugly_ very fast). For commercial purposes, the record layouts etc are very nice and easily deciphered. Overall, I like it better than PL/I Nico From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 31 03:02:51 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:02:51 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:32:42 PST." <200512301432420950.1AE2AF5D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > One survival skill in programming was learning to block print legibly and > quickly. Lines through zeroes In some places it was a line through the letter O. Mostly in Europe I think, we certainly did that as it was taught that way in ICL course material. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 31 05:31:37 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 06:31:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <43B5F463.5030709@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <200512300614.BAA01242@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43B5F463.5030709@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512311139.GAA11530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Not, I daresay, when you have a paper form to fill out. Then you >> have all the registration issues of making sure each bit of text >> prints out in the correct place on the page to fall into its field >> on the form, without the benefit of being able to just adjust it >> on-screen until it fits. > You've obviously never used a formfiller. You need one scratch copy > of the form; stick it in the printer and the formfiller prints a grid > out onto the page. You can then use the grid numbers to tell the > formfiller where the fields are. > Perfect results every time, no scanner required. Your printers must have more reproducible registration than mine. :-/ It also needs a scratch copy of the form, which isn't much use when you have exactly one copy mailed to you by the relevant organization. > What, you think I'm going to manually type hundreds of forms when all > my information is in a database? :-) Oh, if you have hundreds of them, overhead operations get a lot cheaper. The one time I wanted something of the sort, I ended up scanning the form and digitally inserting the info into it before printing out the resulting image. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 31 07:53:13 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:53:13 -0500 Subject: 2 Inmac 7724 Rigid Media 2.5 MB Disc Cartridges NOS NIB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20051231135313.D1D62BA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > Item: 8744955990 on ebay > > These look like RL01 packs, but RL01s are 5 MB ea. and these are > reportedly 2.5 MB ea. > > What drive are they for? The "grandaddy" of this physical cartridge is the IBM top-loading cartridge (5440?) disk. Many, many minicomputer systems use this physical form factor cart with different (or sometimes the same, what a concept!) sectoring and formatting in top-loading drives. Often with a fixed platter as well. DEC's innovation was to put embedded servo information on the platter (factory formatted) and upping the density to 5 and then 10MBytes. They were justifiably proud to have succesfully done an embedded-servo drive/cartridge system. But DEC's innovation also means that generic non-embedded-servo-formatted carts won't be usable on a RL01/RL02. It's not quite as common as the IBM 2315 cart (front loading, which spawned the Diablo, RK02/3/5, etc etc etc) but close. Tim. From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 07:58:24 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 05:58:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051231135824.59478.qmail@web30601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ROCC (Redifon/Rediffusion Computers)in the UK made a bit slice processor in the early 80's that ran the Nova instruction set. I believe it was 2901-based. Shop floor rumour at the time had it that one of the hardware engineers designed it as a graduate or undergraduate project. Dave --- Richard wrote: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other > computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 31 05:39:27 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 06:39:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <43B60753.6050102@oldskool.org> References: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512300805.DAA01877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43B60753.6050102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512311408.JAA11771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If you think you understand it, >> You Don't, >> So Look Again. > When I was young, I thought stuff like that was the bomb. Now, it > irritates me -- eclectic and convoluted does not equal "cool" when > I'm the guy who has to understand or fix it. Agreed, totally agreed. I don't yet understand the code enough to know how much of the complication is actually necessary. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From infomagic at localisp.com Sat Dec 31 08:34:25 2005 From: infomagic at localisp.com (infomagic) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:34:25 -0500 Subject: 1802 Problems Message-ID: <7a00ed065ed29634d70ef6db9ec37f76@localisp.com> Tony, It's been 20+ years since I built an interface to my ELFII bus for two 4K SWTech memory boards (32x1(?) dynamic rams in white ceramic DIPs). I can't tell you specifically why SC1 is sending high signals, but back then dynamic RAMs were very common. I seem to remember that SC1 could be used for dynamic RAM refresh. I'll have to dig a bit to come up with more info - if I find it, I'll post again. -John M. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Dec 31 09:38:05 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:38:05 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200512310902.JAA12099 at citadel.metropolis.local> Stan Barr wrote: > In some places it was a line through the letter O. Mostly in Europe I think, > we certainly did that as it was taught that way in ICL course material. Hmm. I was always told that "if there's any possibility of a zero being mistaken for an 'O', put a forward slash through the zero"... Guess it's personal preference, but I bet it cause{s,d} more than a few problems... "Bob in Engineering slashes his zeroes, but Fred in Software slashes his 'O's. Mix them up at your peril." -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... None of you exists, my sysop types all this in! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Dec 31 09:40:27 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:40:27 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <196cf2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I know I have some of the BASIC coding forms for the TRS-80 model 1 > around here somwehre. I've got a few homebrew ones for 6502 Assembler. Can't remember ever having used them though - I got my mitts on a copy of a 6502 macro assembler (as65 IIRC), then just used Vim and as65... Speaking of which, I really do need to read the section of the vim manual that covers syntax highlighting... That's something reserved for a REALLY rainy day though. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... It doesn't work, but it looks pretty. From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sat Dec 31 09:46:07 2005 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:46:07 +0100 Subject: PX-8 power supply. Was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <200512281359.jBSDwp25046234@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200512281359.jBSDwp25046234@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43B6A7BF.8050408@xs4all.nl> > >Incidentally, do you know if the PX4, PX8, PF10 and HX20 all use the same >adapter? > > Both HX-20 and PX-8 came with some variation of the HOOAA? Adapter (HOOAAG for 220V, HOOAAU-A for 240V, ...) Not sure about the PX-4, which has smaller cells, but charges ok with the adapter mentioned above. You can replace the old C-type NiCd cells with modern NiMh penlights. The capacity is similar and so is charging (using the primitive way Epson implemented it). And these are considerable cheaper. I did make a small page containing the information I have on the PF-10: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/pf10/. Important to know is that the unit is not designed to be used from the mains adapter. This is only for charging. Charging and operation should not be done at the same time. >-tony > > > Fred Jan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 31 08:24:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:24:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200512301751560377.1B9913F9@10.0.0.252> References: <200512301751560377.1B9913F9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512311555.KAA12013@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I thought the touch-tone keypad was 2 transistors, one for the >> column frequencies, one for the row frequencies. But I've never seen >> one. > No sir, it used only a single transistor. [...] Here's a schematic > http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/images/2526bm_schematic_2.gif I have a telephone of probably about that era; it's the same form-factor as a traditional rotary phone, but it has a 12-key keypad instead of a rotary dial. I took it apart, and the dial module has wire colours and component counts which fairly closely fit the "DIAL" portion of your schematic, allowing me to supply some relevant but otherwise missing information. I assume that the Xes (eg, at the "k u" and "w x" points) are NO switches and the single-line-cross (eg, "z y" and "e v") are NC switches - except that my phone has one NC switch too many and one NO switch too few to match the schematic. (One NO and one NC switch share a contact, making them effectively an SPDT switch; I can't tell whether it's break-before-make or make-before-break. Also, one of the other NC switches breaks well after the other NC switches.) Unfortunately it is assembled in such a way that I can't easily get to the etch side of the PCB without being destructive (the connections from the switches to the PCB were spot-welded after the PCB was assembled to the button panel, and while it might be possible to work around this, I would need a thin (ca. 1mm thick) wrench or pair of pliers, to get to nuts that are between two layers). While I might be able to be destructive in a way that could be repaired, I don't think curiosity is worth risking breaking the one really good DTMF phone I have, so I can't trace my circuit to tell how well it matches your schematic. Also important, but not shown on your schematic, is that many of the inductors are wound on the same axis and thus are magnetically coupled together. There are two axes on which the inductors are wound; I conjecture that one is for vertical and one horizontal - ie, one high-tone and one low-tone - but where the inductors shown near the transistor fit into this I can only speculate about. I conjecture that one of each of the two inductors shown as being wired in series in each of the pairs near the transistor is wound on each axis, because I don't see any other reason for using two inductors in series like that. The devices which I'm matching up with the black diamonds with small white lines are small black plastic cylinders with rounded ends, in-line axial leads, maybe 4mm in diameter and 9mm long. There is a colour band, which is yellow on three of them and green on the other. Seeing one in isolation, I would take them for diodes or capacitors, but only tentatively. The three capacitors are one cermaic disc labeled .0051 and two yellow plastic cylinders, each labeled ".0442?F" and "?5%"; I conjecture the two are the ones in the keypad circuit and the one is the one near the transistor. This conjecture is reinforced by their physical placement, which has the cermaic disc next to the transistor and the yellow cylinders on the other side of the board. I find only two objects I recognize immediately as resistors; they are banded 5K1 10% (green-brown-red-silver) and 810 10% (grey-red-brown-silver). The object I am assuming is the third resistor is a two-terminal device which looks as though it might be uninsulated carbon-film; the unused side is marked "45R3J". Their positions do not lead to useful inferences as to which is which. The transistor is in a metal-can package (the size some 8mm in diameter and 7mm high); it is marked "12D" in three places around the top and "3-73*" where the * represents a small black diamond, or (if you prefer) square turned 45?, near the bottom. The inductor assemblies are marked "2597-AS" and "573" on one, "2597-AR" and "473" on the other. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 10:10:35 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:10:35 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> Richard wrote: > This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some > of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always > pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 10:11:53 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:11:53 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B6ADC9.6040309@ecubics.com> Richard wrote: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? There was a company (forget the name and product (eagle?)), which was selling a board with an mc68000 emulated by am2903. Was faster than the original. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Dec 31 10:19:32 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:19:32 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-12-31 09:10:35 -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > Richard wrote: > >This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some > >of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always > >pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. > > The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) Is there some really interesting documentation available for these chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like a VAX CPU. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 31 10:45:13 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:45:13 -0500 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20051231164513.8B0ADBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) > > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > a VAX CPU. At the application-specific level, the classic reference is "Mick and Brick". I think there's a PDF floating around on the web but I don't know exactly where. Bitsavers has lots of AMD2901 stuff including an app note showing how to build a faster 8080A out of 'em, with some comments about tradeoffs etc. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/amd/ The KS10 microcode is on the web, as well as some drawings, but it's not nearly as accessible as a simple micro like the 8080A. VAXen are necessarily much more complicated, although the tradeoffs as to circuitry vs microcode vs instruction emulation will be common to any microcoded implementation. Bob Supnik has some non-2901-specific comments and important personal narrative on his VAX and PDP-11 designs at http://simh.trailing-edge.com/dsarchive.html Tim. Tim. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Dec 31 10:46:33 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:46:33 -0600 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:03:38 -0800 . Message-ID: <20051231164804.CQUZ1137.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message , "Zane H. Healy" writes: >As far as I know, there isn't anything online. > >The books that come to mind are the following (in other words they're >on my shelf): >VMS Internals and Data Structures >VAX/VMS Operating System Concepts >VMS File System Internals >VAXcluster Principles Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll have to look into getting either the Internal and Data Structures or the Concepts book. In the mean time, I'll try to piece together some general description from what I've got. Thanks, Brian L. Stuart From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 31 11:05:58 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:05:58 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200512310905.59033.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 31 December 2005 08:19, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Sat, 2005-12-31 09:10:35 -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > >This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some > > >of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always > > >pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. > > > > The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) > > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > a VAX CPU. The 11/34A used AM2901 bit slices in it's FP implementation - and the microcode listings are available for both the FP and non-FP microcode of the 11/34A. If you are interested in more detail on DEC's use of bit slices, look at Part IV "Evolution of Computer Building Blocks" in "Computer Engineering", by Moore, Mudge and McNamara. (Every DEC affectionado ought to own and read this book cover-to-cover - multiple times ;-) Here's an excerpt: Page 436 "BIT-SLICES (Fractional Register Level Modules) as building blocks" ... "Today, these components are the dominant mainstream building blocks and have been in a variety of applications. For example, the 4 bit wide AM2901 slice was used in 1976 to implement the 64 bit wide data path of the Floating-Point Processor for the PDP-11/34, and bit-slices are not the technology of choice for mid-range PDP-11 processors." "The building blocks available in 1978 are reasonably represented by the following" (abbreviated): 1. "Datapath slice: A 4-bit wide slice containing arithmetic and logic unit, 16 registers in a two-port file, data buses, shifter, and multiplexers (the AM2901)." 2. "Microprogram control unit. (AM2909: 4 bits wide or AM2911: 12 bits wide.)" 3. "Interrupt processing unit. (AM2914)" 4. "Interface circuits. (AM2917)" In the same book, Chapter 19, the CMU PDP-11 is described in detail - a PDP-11 architected using Intel/Signetics 3000 bit slices. Covered in this chapter is the design, architecture, implementation, benchmarks and costs associated with the project. Bottom-line: The cost of the CMU bit-slice PDP-11 was $1076 in single unit quantity - and estimated to be $419 in quantities of 100+ (1976 dollars). The system was benchmarked to be about twice the speed of an LSI-11 and half the speed of an 11/40. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 31 11:22:31 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 09:22:31 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines (CORRECTION - delete my previous post - "not" corrected to "now") In-Reply-To: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200512310922.31712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 31 December 2005 08:19, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Sat, 2005-12-31 09:10:35 -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > >This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some > > >of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always > > >pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. > > > > The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) > > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > a VAX CPU. The 11/34A used AM2901 bit slices in it's FP implementation - and the microcode listings are available for both the FP and non-FP microcode of the 11/34A. If you are interested in more detail on DEC's use of bit slices, look at Part IV "Evolution of Computer Building Blocks" in "Computer Engineering", by Moore, Mudge and McNamara. (Every DEC affectionado ought to own and read this book cover-to-cover - multiple times ;-) Here's an excerpt: Page 436 "BIT-SLICES (Fractional Register Level Modules) as building blocks" ... "Today, these components are the dominant mainstream building blocks and have been in a variety of applications. For example, the 4 bit wide AM2901 slice was used in 1976 to implement the 64 bit wide data path of the Floating-Point Processor for the PDP-11/34, and bit-slices are now the technology of choice for mid-range PDP-11 processors." "The building blocks available in 1978 are reasonably represented by the following" (abbreviated): 1. "Datapath slice: A 4-bit wide slice containing arithmetic and logic unit, 16 registers in a two-port file, data buses, shifter, and multiplexers (the AM2901)." 2. "Microprogram control unit. (AM2909: 4 bits wide or AM2911: 12 bits wide.)" 3. "Interrupt processing unit. (AM2914)" 4. "Interface circuits. (AM2917)" In the same book, Chapter 19, the CMU PDP-11 is described in detail - a PDP-11 architected using Intel/Signetics 3000 bit slices. Covered in this chapter is the design, architecture, implementation, benchmarks and costs associated with the project. Bottom-line: The cost of the CMU bit-slice PDP-11 was $1076 in single unit quantity - and estimated to be $419 in quantities of 100+ (1976 dollars). The system was benchmarked to be about twice the speed of an LSI-11 and half the speed of an 11/40. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 31 11:24:09 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:24:09 -0600 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6ADC9.6040309@ecubics.com> References: <43B6ADC9.6040309@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B6BEB9.8050609@pacbell.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >> made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > > There was a company (forget the name and product (eagle?)), which was > selling a board with an mc68000 emulated by am2903. Was faster than the > original. I recall being told this by a former apollow engineeer about early Apollo workstations that used the 68020. Apollo planned on using the 68020 but when it became obvious that the 68020 was going to be late, they designed their own microcoded version that remained faster than the 68020 for a couple of years after it did become available. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 11:26:01 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:26:01 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:45:13 -0500. <20051231164513.8B0ADBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: In article <20051231164513.8B0ADBA47E7 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > At the application-specific level, the classic reference > is "Mick and Brick". I think there's a PDF floating around on the web > but I don't know exactly where. I have a genuine copy of "Mick and Brick". This is the Amazon page: It was the text for a digital design class I took while an undergraduate EE at UDel. Unfortunately, the class was so poorly run that very few people ever got to do any designing or playing with actual circuits. Personally I consider UDel's EE major with the "Digital option" at the time (I graduated 1986) to be a miserable failure in teaching people how to actually *build* anything. I still have a minor circuit phobia for never having actually done anything concrete as a result. I felt pretty ripped off when I arrived at the University of Utah for graduate school and learned that *undergraduate* CS students at UU did more hands-on hardware design and building in their one year hardware course than any EE student at UDel ever did while I was there for 4 years. Just thinking about it still gets my goat. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 11:54:51 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:54:51 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Sat, 2005-12-31 09:10:35 -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > >>Richard wrote: >> >>>This is really interesting! I had no idea that DEC used them for some >>>of their processors -- personally I find that fascinating as I always >>>pictured DEC as a "NIH" shop. >> >>The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) > > > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? AMD: The Am2900 Family Data Book AMD: Bipolar Microprocessor Logic and Interface John Mick & James Brick : Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design (Black Bit-Slice Bible) Donnamaie E.White : Bit-Slice Design: Controller and ALUs (Red Bit-Slice Bible) > I'd like > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > a VAX CPU. If you have a VAX730, you have already everything you need ;-) From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Dec 31 12:05:54 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:05:54 -0000 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <003a01c60e34$d8abe4f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> e.stiebler wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> I'd like >> to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something >> like a VAX CPU. > > If you have a VAX730, you have already everything you need ;-) Manx will find you a chunk of VAX-11/730 stuff. I don't recall seeing the microcode in the schematics I scanned but I think have seen *some* microcode *somewhere*. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 31 12:27:55 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:27:55 -0600 Subject: AMD Bit-slice machines Message-ID: <299a6e5fb9a34b3cbfc2d67b1db6f0f0@valleyimplants.com> SGI IRIS graphics have a handfull of either 2901 or 2903s in them (not as the geometry processor, but in some sort of control function) Main processor is the 68020 or 010, though. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 12:45:13 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 10:45:13 -0800 Subject: AMD Bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <299a6e5fb9a34b3cbfc2d67b1db6f0f0@valleyimplants.com> References: <299a6e5fb9a34b3cbfc2d67b1db6f0f0@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200512311045130069.01F1E7C0@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 12:27 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: >SGI IRIS graphics have a handfull of either 2901 or 2903s in them (not >as the geometry processor, but in some sort of control function) > Main processor is the 68020 or 010, though. You could find 29xx logic in the occasional hard disk controller too. IIRC, Intel used their own 3000-series bitslice to do their first multibus floppy controllers... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 13:13:33 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:13:33 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 12:22 PM Nico de Jong wrote: >Off to the punch room, where they had some 029/129's which could read the >cards and print on the top line. That was a big no-no at our shop--the 029 was too slow and valuable as a keypunch to use it as an interpreter. One usually had to make do with the 557 interpreter, which would take 80 punch colums and spread them out onto two lines of print--the top, 60 characters long and the remaining 20 characters on the second line--with most special characters not rendered correctly. Sometimes you'd be fortunate enough to get cards that were printed with a 60-position legend on the top, so you could match a print position up with a punch column. For a time we had a few non-printing 024 keypunches, so the 557 could come in really handy. FWIW, the 029s at CDC all punched BCD, not EBCDIC. I also recall using a couple of Sperry Univac keypunches because a contract required them. Miserable beasts very prone to failure. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 31 13:28:11 2005 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:28:11 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy aSelectric?) References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <001d01c60e40$56283810$2101a8c0@finans> > In message <200512310902.JAA12099 at citadel.metropolis.local> > Stan Barr wrote: > > > In some places it was a line through the letter O. Mostly in Europe I think, > > we certainly did that as it was taught that way in ICL course material. > > Hmm. I was always told that "if there's any possibility of a zero being > mistaken for an 'O', put a forward slash through the zero"... > Hopefully not in Denmark, this would be the character ?. I use (even today) put a hyphen through letter O, and nothing through figure 0. While talking "funny" characters : we use ? ? and ? (Swedes use ? instad of ?). Those three characters are not found in EBCDIC, so some other characters had to be sacrified : # @ and $. Germans have other characters too, like ?. And that gave us a problem when we had a prime minister called Schl?ter, as ? in the German EBCDIC version had the same value as our ? (IIRC) Back before 1948 or so, the ? did not exist. Before that time, ? was written as AA. Even today we have to handle that seperately, as names etc. did not get AA replaced with ? So even today, if you in a danish telphone directory want to find a name with aa, e.g. Haase, you will find Haase behind Hy or Hz... Talk about sorting probolems ? :-) Nico From dmuir at aebc.com Sat Dec 31 13:29:56 2005 From: dmuir at aebc.com (dmuir) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:29:56 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines References: <0876134A-79CE-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <000301c60e40$95e0c7b0$ae7ba8c0@DM30> Hi The Honeywell Level 6 minicomputers used 5 - 2901's, that gave them a 2mb address space (words) even though they were 16 bit computers. Also had good math coprocessors, not sure what they used. The Honeywell Level 6's were actually very good mini's, we had several from 1980 on that were used for engineering work, geological reserves, open pit mine design. They were almost as fast as the VAX 11/780's at a much lower cost, about $60,000 with 2mb memory. Memory was very expensive. The ones we had had a 16mb removable disk and a 80mb fixed disk, a line printer, tape drive and multiple terminals. Regards David Muir --- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Dreesen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:21 PM Subject: Re: AMD bit-slice machines > > Am zaterdag, 31.12.05, um 02:20 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Richard: > >> Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >> made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > My Data General micronova MP/200 is also 2901 based. > 2901 were quit common at one stage. > > Jos > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 13:34:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:34:03 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: >Hmm. I was always told that "if there's any possibility of a zero being >mistaken for an 'O', put a forward slash through the zero"... > >Guess it's personal preference, but I bet it cause{s,d} more than a few >problems... "Bob in Engineering slashes his zeroes, but Fred in Software >slashes his 'O's. Mix them up at your peril." > > My gripe is modern displays and printers print 1 ( one ) and l ( lowercase L ) the same. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 31 13:44:33 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:44:33 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Hmm. I was always told that "if there's any possibility of a zero being >> mistaken for an 'O', put a forward slash through the zero"... >> >> Guess it's personal preference, but I bet it cause{s,d} more than a few >> problems... "Bob in Engineering slashes his zeroes, but Fred in Software >> slashes his 'O's. Mix them up at your peril." >> >> > My gripe is modern displays and printers print 1 ( one ) and l ( > lowercase L ) the same. They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? Gordon. From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Dec 31 13:50:59 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:50:59 -0600 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B6E123.3020708@pacbell.net> e.stiebler wrote: ... > Donnamaie E.White : Bit-Slice Design: Controller and ALUs (Red Bit-Slice > Bible) This book is online with the blessing of the author: http://www10.dacafe.com/book/parse_book.php?article=BITSLICE/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 13:53:17 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:53:17 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: >> >> Is there some really interesting documentation available for these >> chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? > http://www10.dacafe.com/book/parse_book.php?article=BITSLICE/index.html Read the online Book. I have planned to do a Bitslice design but I have never come up with a simple to decode instruction set. From what little I have looked at the 2901's you still need TTL to interface to the real world, like input/output and address latches. Note a PDP-11 stretched to 20 bits might be a GOOD 2901 design. {OP}{Byte:MODE}{R0-15}{byte:mode}{R0-15} From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 13:57:43 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 12:57:43 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By > "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? > My font is the delault windows netscape mail-reader font. > Gordon. From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 14:19:48 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:19:48 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> woodelf wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: > >>> >>> Is there some really interesting documentation available for these >>> chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? >> >> > http://www10.dacafe.com/book/parse_book.php?article=BITSLICE/index.html > Read the online Book. > I have planned to do a Bitslice design but I have never come up with a > simple to > decode instruction set. What about very simple 16 bit risc ? 4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 14:25:45 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:25:45 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a "deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. On 12/31/05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/31/2005 at 12:22 PM Nico de Jong wrote: > > >Off to the punch room, where they had some 029/129's which could read the > >cards and print on the top line. > > That was a big no-no at our shop--the 029 was too slow and valuable as a > keypunch to use it as an interpreter. One usually had to make do with the > 557 interpreter, which would take 80 punch colums and spread them out onto > two lines of print--the top, 60 characters long and the remaining 20 > characters on the second line--with most special characters not rendered > correctly. Sometimes you'd be fortunate enough to get cards that were > printed with a 60-position legend on the top, so you could match a print > position up with a punch column. For a time we had a few non-printing 024 > keypunches, so the 557 could come in really handy. FWIW, the 029s at CDC > all punched BCD, not EBCDIC. > > I also recall using a couple of Sperry Univac keypunches because a contract > required them. Miserable beasts very prone to failure. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 14:37:12 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:37:12 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/31/05 3:25 PM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the > beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in > the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a > "deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. Only 20? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 14:41:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:41:04 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B6ECE0.4080100@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > What about very simple 16 bit risc ? > 4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? That is a simple design. Still any bitslice design is a muilti-board design so for me, a more powerful CPU is larger word length than 16 bits. 20 bits does have two advantages in hindsight. 1) Good small computer adddress range. 2) reasonable integer size -512k...512k For me that is next year, this year I am working on 16bit cpu using CPLDs... 3 for the cpu and two for bus interfacing.This is my version of a simple CPU ... 16 bit words, 64kw memory AC, IX,SP,PC as registers and No Indirect addressing. About PDP-8/e speed. 1.6 us operate 2.4 us memory or jump on condition and 3.2 us for jump to subroutine, with 6800 style bus interface. {jcc}{index}{offset} {op-memory}{index}{offset} From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Dec 31 14:41:28 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:41:28 -0600 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? Message-ID: <5mqdr1h0hii59uv3sr1noqadf4uubhj9gp@4ax.com> >A common trick to change the frequence of a crystal, is to put a capacitor >in parallel with it You can "pull" a 27 MHz crystal (a few tens of KHz at most), but that won't work with these integrated oscillators. They only have three functional pins: +5, Gnd, Out... Anyhow, while searching the junkbox for something completely unrelated, I found a 30.000 MHz oscillator can. From the previous discussion I figured it'd be worth a try... I tacked it in place and voila - the RUN light lit briefly, and ODT promptly came up to the "@" prompt! :) I can examine and change locations so at least the CPU and console port are working. If anyone's got a short RAM test program I can key in via ODT I'd appreciate it. The RAM is a Clearpoint card that appears to be 2 Mbytes/1 Mword. (I don't know PDP-11 assembly language, or machine code, so it's time to get out the manuals!) Also the Fault light on the RL02 is still on, don't know if the problem is in the drive or the RLV12 card yet. Guess I can swap the other RL02 (working on the 8/A) and see what happens... -Charles From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 14:43:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:43:30 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Gary Sparkes wrote: >On 12/31/05 3:25 PM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > > >>Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the >>beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in >>the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a >>"deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. >> >> > >Only 20? > > They had a trained monkey for the other 16 switches. :) From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 14:49:00 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:49:00 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: They had a trained monkey of the first 20 also...#8-) 20 switches was for two 10 bit words. On 12/31/05, woodelf wrote: > Gary Sparkes wrote: > > >On 12/31/05 3:25 PM, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > > > > > > > >>Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the > >>beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in > >>the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a > >>"deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. > >> > >> > > > >Only 20? > > > > > They had a trained monkey for the other 16 switches. :) > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 31 14:49:32 2005 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: Changing the clock frequency slightly (PDP-11)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:41:28 -0600. <5mqdr1h0hii59uv3sr1noqadf4uubhj9gp@4ax.com> Message-ID: In article <5mqdr1h0hii59uv3sr1noqadf4uubhj9gp at 4ax.com>, Charles writes: > Also the Fault light on the RL02 is still on, don't know if the > problem is in the drive or the RLV12 card yet. Guess I can swap > the other RL02 (working on the 8/A) and see what happens... Is the terminator installed on the drive? IIRC, without the terminator the fault light will come on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 31 15:02:07 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:02:07 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sometimes you'd be fortunate enough to get cards that were > printed with a 60-position legend on the top, so you could match a print > position up with a punch column. I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a time you could go *back* to *punch cards*? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 31 15:05:15 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:05:15 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By >> "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? >> > My font is the delault windows netscape mail-reader font. That would be Courier New if you didn't touch the defaults. I haven't either, and I do agree that l and 1 are barely distinguishable. About a month ago, there was a thread in this group about finding an alternative "system" monospaced font -- was a concensus ever reached? Any download links, anyone? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 31 15:06:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:06:27 -0600 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <200512311139.GAA11530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230003715.05563060@mail.30below.com> <200512300614.BAA01242@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43B5F463.5030709@oldskool.org> <200512311139.GAA11530@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B6F2D3.8070809@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > It also needs a scratch copy of the form, which isn't much use when you > have exactly one copy mailed to you by the relevant organization. Agreed. I was just pointing out how to do it if you need to do several. Formfillers were the kind of program I looked at and went, "Duh! Why didn't I think of that?" > The one time I wanted something of the sort, I ended up scanning the > form and digitally inserting the info into it before printing out the > resulting image. That works too :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 15:10:26 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:10:26 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: References: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B6F3C2.6070604@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >They had a trained monkey of the first 20 also...#8-) 20 switches was >for two 10 bit words. > >On 12/31/05, woodelf wrote: > > >>Gary Sparkes wrote: >> >> Do you know offhand just what computer that was with 10 bit words? Unless of course you were training for NASA and I want to know who got the banana and who got the food pellet? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 31 15:09:50 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:09:50 -0600 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512311408.JAA11771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20051230074832.22E2673029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512300805.DAA01877@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43B60753.6050102@oldskool.org> <200512311408.JAA11771@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B6F39E.5080207@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > I don't yet understand the code enough to know how much of the > complication is actually necessary. I'm sure it was the result of someone being familiar with the original architecture and compiler, and made certain decisions that compiled "in his favor". When I discovered similar things I could do in my own environment 15 years ago, I did the same thing -- without commenting, so of course I confused myself a year ago trying to read the code. I was shifting something right one place and then dealing with the carry; I kept looking for bitmask stuff later in the code when I realized after half an hour I was simply dividing by two :-/ So now when I optimize like silly, I keep the original code commented out, and then I optimize, and then I COMMENT my optimizations. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Dec 31 15:22:13 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:22:13 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20051231212213.2B5C1BA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> > >> They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By > >> "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? > >> > > My font is the delault windows netscape mail-reader font. > > That would be Courier New if you didn't touch the defaults. I haven't > either, and I do agree that l and 1 are barely distinguishable. Well, on the first machine I had that used a Courier-type font, you typed the lower-case-letter-L for the numeral 1 and you typed an uppercase-letter-O for the numeral 0. So they were not only hard to distinguish, they were in fact identical... I suppose that might be "Courier Old" :-). Tim. From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 15:39:02 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:39:02 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6ECE0.4080100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <43B6ECE0.4080100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B6FA76.7020507@ecubics.com> woodelf wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: > >> >> What about very simple 16 bit risc ? >> 4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? > > > That is a simple design. Still any bitslice design is a muilti-board design > so for me, a more powerful CPU is larger word length than 16 bits. > 20 bits does have two advantages in hindsight. 1) Good small computer > adddress range. 2) reasonable integer size -512k...512k So just go for the 24 bits, like some Motorola DSP's, Or just go the whole way to the 32 and make a VAX ;-) (8 x 2901, now you have a multi board design, and enough heat ) (the idea of 36 bits I write in the next email ;-) ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 15:59:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:59:49 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6FA76.7020507@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <43B6ECE0.4080100@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6FA76.7020507@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B6FF55.4030000@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > (the idea of 36 bits I write in the next email ;-) ) Well hurry up and write :) No - wait DEC is planning to use 24 BITS with the PDP/2 http://lightning.locl.net/homes/pdp2/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 16:19:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:19:16 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512311419160377.02B5E0EC@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 3:05 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >About a month ago, there was a thread in this group about finding an >alternative "system" monospaced font -- was a concensus ever reached? >Any download links, anyone? I like Onuava and use it as the font in my command-prompt windows: http://eksten.net/webgraphix/fonts/o/onuava.html (and lots of other locations--just google for it) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 16:27:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:27:58 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 2:25 PM Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the >beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in >the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a >"deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. Feh! This was OUR idea of ROM: http://www.jlw.com/retro/CY70-6K-panel.tif Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 16:39:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:39:31 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512311439310764.02C86C87@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 3:02 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have >worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia >glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a time >you could go *back* to *punch cards*? No way. Way back when, if I could get away with it, I'd use a CDC 6000-series PPU program called O26 (that's oh, not zero) that ran on the operator's console to create source code. One could always send the source file to the card punch. A hideous waste of resources; using a dedicated system to create source--feeding the keypunch with $20 bills instead of cards would likely have been more economical.. Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 16:40:58 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:40:58 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F3C2.6070604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F3C2.6070604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: IBM 7070 On 12/31/05, woodelf wrote: > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > >They had a trained monkey of the first 20 also...#8-) 20 switches was > >for two 10 bit words. > > > >On 12/31/05, woodelf wrote: > > > > > >>Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> > >> > Do you know offhand just what computer that was with 10 bit words? > Unless of course you were training for NASA and I want to know who got > the banana > and who got the food pellet? > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 16:41:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:41:37 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 1:19 PM e.stiebler wrote: >What about very simple 16 bit risc ? >4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? You know, there is a small community of folks using FPGAs to implement all sorts of interesting architectures, including the one you've just described. Perhaps it's worth a look... Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Dec 31 16:44:30 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:44:30 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: References: <43B6ED72.3060506@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F3C2.6070604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 12/31/05, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I want to know who got > > the banana > > and who got the food pellet? We got both of them!! In those days "Wizards" were prima donas. We got anything we asked for. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 31 16:46:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:46:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20051231143831.L35308@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "Bob in Engineering slashes his zeroes, but > Fred in Software slashes his 'O's. Mix them up at your peril." ^^^^ HARUMPH. I slash my zeroes. Always have; always will. 35/40 years ago, I knew a couple of people who slashed their 'Oh's. 25 years ago, I inherited books, bookcases, etc. when the last one of them died. Is there still anybody alive who does it that way? 'course about 15 years ago, Microsoft was trying to OCR their registration cards, and actually asked the public to use their stylized characters! Not as different as Grafiti, but they did ask for a slash through 'O'hs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Dec 31 16:49:52 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:49:52 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43B70B10.2010301@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >>> >>> They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By >>> "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? >>> >> My font is the delault windows netscape mail-reader font. > > > That would be Courier New if you didn't touch the defaults. I haven't > either, and I do agree that l and 1 are barely distinguishable. > > About a month ago, there was a thread in this group about finding an > alternative "system" monospaced font -- was a concensus ever reached? > Any download links, anyone? Bitstream Vera is free as in beer and free as in speech. http://www.bitstream.com/font_rendering/products/dev_fonts/vera.html Presumably Windows can handle TrueType fonts. Gordon. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Dec 31 17:07:34 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:07:34 -0500 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <43B5F38D.3060009@oldskool.org> References: <43B5F38D.3060009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200512311807.34543.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 30 December 2005 09:57 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > Richard wrote: > > and its really just *much* more efficient to power on a typewriter and > > bang it out in a few seconds than it is to turn on the computer, > > You turn yours *off*? > > (ducking) :-D There are several here that don't get turned off, for sure. This one I'm typing on oughta be, at some point soon, so I can plug its power cord into a UPS... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From allain at panix.com Sat Dec 31 17:12:29 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:12:29 -0500 Subject: anyone have a line on a batch of serial terminals? References: Message-ID: <004f01c60e5f$ac587c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I see *tons* of palettes of VGA monitors these days, but rarely do I > see palettes of terminals I'd say you just missed the boat, a few years ago all the stores switched to embedded PC's. You could get lucky. Spy on all the large local stores and build relationships if you find one still using them. Car service and parts supply places are pretty good, but you won't find one using as many as 20. John A. Good Luck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 17:17:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:17:12 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <20051231143831.L35308@shell.lmi.net> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20051231143831.L35308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200512311517120124.02EAEA10@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 2:46 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >HARUMPH. >I slash my zeroes. Always have; always will. >35/40 years ago, I knew a couple of people who slashed their 'Oh's. >25 years ago, I inherited books, bookcases, etc. when the last one >of them died. Is there still anybody alive who does it that way? Maybe there are some anarchists hiding out there. Slashing zero was definitely the IBM way and, AFAIK, the same for all other major manufacturers (just check some of the programming language manuals on bitsavers). Slashing "oh" was definitely asking for trouble from the keypunch pool. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Dec 31 17:18:02 2005 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:18:02 -0500 Subject: parts pages updated Message-ID: <200512311818.02194.rtellason@blazenet.net> I've just uploaded some updated versions of my parts pages: http://yourpage.blazenet.net/rtellason/parts.html Perhaps some of you folks might find this information useful. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 17:25:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:25:32 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Feh! This was OUR idea of ROM: > >http://www.jlw.com/retro/CY70-6K-panel.tif > >Cheers, >Chuck > > Well the Cyber people called it Deadstart. Other people called it ColdStart. I just call it booting the sytem. Was anyother terms used on how to start up a computer? PS. I got surfing the web for IBM 7070 , a real classic computer. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 31 17:31:51 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:31:51 -0600 Subject: anyone have a line on a batch of serial terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B714E7.8010405@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > I'm looking for about 20-40 units of serial terminal, with 20 being > the bare minimum that I need for the project. Realistically, spares > will be needed, so more than 20 units are preferred. > Any ideas on how to find something like this? Or do I have to keep > waiting until noone is using terminals at all, not even in the 3rd > party market? I'd look for somebody scrapping laptops. A 486 or early Pentium system should have enough screen to be useful, battery life won't be an issue, and one of the FreeOS families should have a terminal emulator to suit you (or that can be altered to suit). I'll grant that a PeeCee laptop doesn't have the panache of a nice VT320, but they're cheaper, easier to find, and more compact. One of the local liquidators just finished selling a run of early Pentium Thinkpads that went for less than $20 each. Something like a Toshiba would run about half that, and if you'd bought 40 of them you might have gotten them for <$10. Doc From emu at ecubics.com Sat Dec 31 17:48:14 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:48:14 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/31/2005 at 1:19 PM e.stiebler wrote: > >>What about very simple 16 bit risc ? >>4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? > > You know, there is a small community of folks using FPGAs to implement all > sorts of interesting architectures, including the one you've just > described. Perhaps it's worth a look... Yup, the FPGAs are also organized by 4 bits, so that's why it would be preferable to use something like that. 20 Bits is bad however, as soon as you like to have external memory From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 31 17:53:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:53:06 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43B719E2.9070704@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > Yup, the FPGAs are also organized by 4 bits, so that's why it would be > preferable to use something like that. 20 Bits is bad however, as soon > as you like to have external memory Well you can still buy 64k x 1 Drams. :) Disc I/O is the problem but if you don't mind wasting cheap IDE dirve space you can have odd word sizes. I don't see where FPGA's have a 4 bit limit? I am just using 16 bits for now to keep it simple. :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 15:18:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:18:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200512301751560377.1B9913F9@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 30, 5 05:51:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 12/31/2005 at 12:17 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >I thought the touch-tone keypad was 2 transistors, one for the column > >frequencies, one for the row frequencies. But I've never seen one. > > No sir, it used only a single transistor. Transistors were viewed as the I stnad corrected. > least reliable part of a telephone and so usage was minimized. Here's a > schematic of the dial on one of them: Interesting. I think the Post Office in England thought the same way at one point. They had a little transistorised signal tracer with a 4 (?) transsitor amplifier in it. Most of the amplifier was a potted module, but the transistors were mounted on top and soldered to pins sticking out of the potting compound so they could be replaced. > I think WE doesn't get nearly enough credit for creating some really > bulletproof designs. I find it a great pity that now that transistors have become so cheap (particularly when in ICs), most people don't care how many are used, and most modern designs use far too many of them. It's amazing what could be done with 2 or 3 of the things, but those clever designs have been mostly forgotten. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 15:22:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:22:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B5E672.5020604@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Dec 30, 5 06:01:22 pm Message-ID: > IIRC the Three Rivers PERQ was also a 2901 based design. Not any PERQ that I've seen (and I think I've seen all models). The classic PERQs (1, 1a, 2T1, 2T2, 2T4) used 74S181 ALUs and 256 nybble RAMs for the registers (yes, 256 CPU registers). The sequencer was an AMD 2910, which, of curse, is from the same family as the 2901. But the 2910 is not IMHO a true 'slice' in that it can't be extended to bits. It's a 12 bit microcode sequencer (and all PERQs apart from the 1 had 16K of control store, so they had to extend the sequener address by a circuit kmown to all PERQ fanatics as the '2 bit kludge', pun totally intentional). The PERQ ethernet interface and hard disk cotnrollers also used 2910 sequencers with PROMs as the control store. The PERQ 3a (AGW3300) was a 68020-based machine. The graphics processor used a pair of 29116 data path chips (one to calculate addresses, one to do the data processing) along with a very simple sequencer built from TTL. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:14:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:14:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: <43B606DD.4030402@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 30, 5 10:19:41 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > And yes, I **sue** a word processor > > Freudian slip? :-) No, a simple typo, which is why I use a word processor... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:18:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <43B60753.6050102@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 30, 5 10:21:39 pm Message-ID: > When I was young, I thought stuff like that was the bomb. Now, it > irritates me -- eclectic and convoluted does not equal "cool" when I'm > the guy who has to understand or fix it. I feel the same way about hardware, which is probably why I feel nauseous when I look at the Apple ][ (and peripherals) schematics. On the other hand I love elegantly designed hardware (which may also be complicated and ingenious) like the HP9100. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:20:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:20:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <43B6157B.9060703@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Dec 31, 5 00:22:03 am Message-ID: > > Oh, also the SC0/SC1 states are only valid on TPA. Does your datasheet > call that out? Thanks, no I'd not spotted that. Tomorrow (it's getting late...) I will see (a) which states it is going into and (b) if the pulse on SC1 occurs coincident with TPA. And so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:22:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:22:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <0876134A-79CE-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 31, 5 08:21:17 am Message-ID: > > > Am zaterdag, 31.12.05, um 02:20 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Richard: > > > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > My Data General micronova MP/200 is also 2901 based. > 2901 were quit common at one stage. And another one I've just remembered : Philips P854. The P851, BTW, was built from Philips's own custom bit-slice chip called SPALU (Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic Unit) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:28:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PX-8 power supply. Was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: <43B6A7BF.8050408@xs4all.nl> from "Fred Jan Kraan" at Dec 31, 5 04:46:07 pm Message-ID: > > > > > >Incidentally, do you know if the PX4, PX8, PF10 and HX20 all use the same > >adapter? > > > > > Both HX-20 and PX-8 came with some variation of the HOOAA? Adapter > (HOOAAG for 220V, HOOAAU-A for 240V, ...) OK... So if I manage to get the _real_ characteristics of the adapter it will probaly do for all the machines. > Not sure about the PX-4, which has smaller cells, but charges ok with > the adapter mentioned above. > > You can replace the old C-type NiCd cells with modern NiMh penlights. > The capacity is similar and so is charging (using the primitive way > Epson implemented it). And these are considerable cheaper. Any reason not to sue Sub-C NiCds or NiMHs? I think they're both easily available. > > I did make a small page containing the information I have on the PF-10: > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/px8/pf10/. > > Important to know is that the unit is not designed to be used from the > mains adapter. This is only for charging. Charging and operation should > not be done at the same time. Looking at the schematic, this does not suprise me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:30:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:30:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6ADC9.6040309@ecubics.com> from "e.stiebler" at Dec 31, 5 09:11:53 am Message-ID: > There was a company (forget the name and product (eagle?)), which was > selling a board with an mc68000 emulated by am2903. Was faster than the > original. That, in a convoluted way, has reminded me of a couple more 29xx-based processors The HP9845 Opt 200 High Speed Language Processor contains 4 2901s and a 2910 The HP98770 colour monitor contains a video processor with, IIRC, 3 2903s on it. And the Xerox Daybreak contains 4 2901-like things (maybe 7C901s) and a custom sequencer chip. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:33:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:33:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> from "Jan-Benedict Glaw" at Dec 31, 5 05:19:32 pm Message-ID: > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > a VAX CPU. Remember the 2901 is just the ALU, 16 4-bit registers, and the associated interconnection circuity (multiplexers, etc). If you understand how those work, understnad propagate/generate carry, and know how to make a microcoded CPU in general, then there is little more to learn for the 2901. That said, there is a very good book on the 2900 series called 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' by Mick and Brick (no, those names are not a joke). It's not easy to find (or at least it took me some time to find it), but it does contain several examples of 2900-based circuits with the microcode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:39:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:39:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD Bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <200512311045130069.01F1E7C0@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 31, 5 10:45:13 am Message-ID: > > > > On 12/31/2005 at 12:27 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > > >SGI IRIS graphics have a handfull of either 2901 or 2903s in them (not > >as the geometry processor, but in some sort of control function) > > Main processor is the 68020 or 010, though. > > You could find 29xx logic in the occasional hard disk controller too. And floppy disk controllers (the DEC RX02, and the Q-bus cards that do RX02 format on an SA800). AFAIK, though, the microcode for those was never published > IIRC, Intel used their own 3000-series bitslice to do their first multibus > floppy controllers... Certainly the double-density controller in my MDS800 is 3000-based. But the microcode is not given in the manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 31 17:41:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:41:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 31, 5 10:26:01 am Message-ID: > It was the text for a digital design class I took while an > undergraduate EE at UDel. Unfortunately, the class was so poorly run > that very few people ever got to do any designing or playing with > actual circuits. Personally I consider UDel's EE major with the > "Digital option" at the time (I graduated 1986) to be a miserable > failure in teaching people how to actually *build* anything. I still I am told it's getting ever worse. EE, CS, and similar courses in UK universities may well involve not building anything. It's all done on simulators (cue ARD's rant about the misuse of simulators. Note I said 'misuse'. They are undoubtedly useful when used correctly, which is not as a replacment for building real hardware in an undergraduate course). -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 31 17:58:12 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:58:12 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 28, Issue 99 Message-ID: <01C60E3C.C57D7D00@ns1.syne-post.com> Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:25:45 -0600 From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" Subject: Re: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) >Well, using a key punch was a sissy add on that came later. In the >beginning we moved wire jumpers from here to there and then later in >the NEW age, we flipped 20 switches up or down then pressed a >"deposit" button. Key punches were for sissy's. -------------- Burroughs had a better idea on some of their systems: they had illuminated multicoloured push buttons that displayed the various registers; to change a bit you just pushed the corresponding button. Still have one of their panels somewhere; also a much less interesting operator console from a B2700 IIRC. m From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Dec 31 19:32:08 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:32:08 -0600 Subject: More PDP-11 problems Message-ID: As I posted previously, the 26.667 MHz master clock oscillator had failed on the KDF11-BA cpu (probably from rough handling). For now I have a 30.000 MHz module from the junkbox. Looks like I spoke too soon (I had the J17-18 always-ODT jumper installed so seeing the ODT prompt was not a surprise). I don't know if this minimal overclocking is causing my current problems though: I have found two substantially different tables showing how to set the CPU DIPswitches. KDF11-B Maintenance Manual (MM), and KDF11-BA Users Manual (UM). The UM says I should have switches 1-8 set to: 1-On: CPU diagnostic 2-On: Memory diagnostic 3-Off: No DECNet boot 4-Off: Turn-key boot (sel. sw 5-8) 5-Off: 6-Off: 7-On: RL01/02 boot 8-Off: I don't have the MM handy, it was .TIFF pages, but for the same functions only switches 5 and 7 were On. Anyway, using either table, the RUN light comes on briefly, then ODT prints 173000 @ with the RUN light off, state LED's=1111. Manual says 17 octal means the CPU is not in power-up mode 2, but J18-19 is correctly installed. I don't get any memory test messages or identifying text either, just the ODT prompt. According to the UM page 2-5, it looks like the internal boot address of 173000 is being generated correctly, but if BHALT L is being (incorrectly) asserted, the result is entry to ODT and a halt. Which matches what I see happening. If I set the front panel HALT switch and flip RESTART, the CPU immediately halts with state LED's=0001 which is correct. So it doesn't look like the HALT line is shorted to ground. Also, I can examine memory using ODT at the boot EPROM address of 773000 and read the following: 112737 000016 177524 000005 012700 000340 106400 012706 177524... I don't have a PDP-11 disassembler handy but that looks like some kind of executable code, hopefully the bootstrap. When I examine memory at 173000 it's all 1's (177777) but I can deposit and read data correctly into locations there. Shouldn't the bootstrap program be copying its code there? Again, if the HALT line is being set for some reason, then the copy operation can't take place... is that where I should be looking or am I following a false trail? Any help greatly appreciated. thanks Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 19:34:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:34:23 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512311734230893.0368887D@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 4:25 PM woodelf wrote: >Well the Cyber people called it Deadstart. Other people called it >ColdStart. >I just call it booting the sytem. Was anyother terms used on how to >start up a computer? >PS. I got surfing the web for IBM 7070 , a real classic computer. IBM ers called it IPL (for Initial Program Load). I suspect that the 7070/7080 were, after the 1401, some of the more emulated machines on S/360 and 370 mainframes. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 31 19:48:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:48:29 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200512311748290879.03757120@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 4:25 PM woodelf wrote: >Well the Cyber people called it Deadstart. Other people called it >ColdStart. The thing you have to remember about the Cyber deadstart is that the DS panel was it as far as switches and blinkenlights went on the Cyber. Push the button under the display and those switches were loaded into PP0. No way to read them after that; no other switches or lights that would tell you a darned thing about any of the PP's or the CPU. Definitely the antithesis of the IBM S/360 operator's panel. If you were modifying the boot process or trying to figure out why your new deadstart tape didn't work, it took a 'scope and a bunch of head-scratching. Those 12 words were barely enough to read in one tape record. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Dec 31 20:07:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:07:47 -0500 Subject: More PDP-11 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200512312107.47984.pat@computer-refuge.org> Charles declared on Saturday 31 December 2005 20:32: > When I examine memory at 173000 it's all 1's (177777) but I can > deposit and read data correctly into locations there. Shouldn't > the bootstrap program be copying its code there? No. Because of 16-bit addressing vs 18-bit addressing, what the ODT shows at 173000 is really "memory"/IO address 773000. > Again, if the > HALT line is being set for some reason, then the copy operation > can't take place... is that where I should be looking or am I > following a false trail? There's no copy, reading from address 173000 gets translated by the MMU to 773000 automagically. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Dec 31 20:41:09 2005 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 18:41:09 -0800 Subject: More PDP-11 problems In-Reply-To: <200512312107.47984.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200512312107.47984.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43B74145.3000001@mindspring.com> Doesn't the console ODT for the KDF11 (11/23) normally operate in 18b address mode? So if you exam/dep address 173000 from the console, it is the 18b address 173000 (ie, not extended to 773000). If you want to exam/dep the boot PROM address 773000 you have to enter that address. Of course when the PDP-11 executes code with mem mgt off, the 16b address 173000 will be extended to the 18b address 773000, mapping the upper 4KW of the PDP-11 16b address space to the last 4KW of physical unibus 18b address space. Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Charles declared on Saturday 31 December 2005 20:32: > > >>When I examine memory at 173000 it's all 1's (177777) but I can >>deposit and read data correctly into locations there. Shouldn't >>the bootstrap program be copying its code there? >> >> > >No. Because of 16-bit addressing vs 18-bit addressing, what the ODT >shows at 173000 is really "memory"/IO address 773000. > > > >>Again, if the >>HALT line is being set for some reason, then the copy operation >>can't take place... is that where I should be looking or am I >>following a false trail? >> >> > >There's no copy, reading from address 173000 gets translated by the MMU >to 773000 automagically. > >Pat > > From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Dec 31 21:20:24 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:20:24 -0500 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B74A78.6050001@jcwren.com> Tony, could the 1802 be in LOAD mode (CLEAR low, WAIT low)? You'll get DMA-IN cycles in that mode. "LOAD: Holds the CPU in the IDLE execution state and allows an device to load the memory without the need for a "bootstrap" loader. It modifies the IDLE condition so that DMA-lN operation does not force execution of the next instruction." --jc Tony Duell wrote: >>Oh, also the SC0/SC1 states are only valid on TPA. Does your datasheet >>call that out? >> >> > >Thanks, no I'd not spotted that. Tomorrow (it's getting late...) I will >see (a) which states it is going into and (b) if the pulse on SC1 occurs >coincident with TPA. And so on. > >-tony > > From lab at lincolnbaxter.com Sat Dec 31 21:37:21 2005 From: lab at lincolnbaxter.com (Lincoln A. Baxter) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:37:21 -0500 Subject: One more try to give away an old Sparc 1+ workstation... Message-ID: <1136086641.29136.119.camel@ssh-backdoor> It's sitting in a Garage in Eastern Pennsylvania (Phoenixville Area), all you have to do is arrange to take it away. (by contacting me... with several different times/days that would work for you). System includes: 15 or 16" monitor (1024x768?) (Sony Trinitron) 1 Gig HD, with Sunos 4.1 on it and 20MB RAM (if I remember right). It has not been booted in several years... the Mobo battery is dead, so the system does not remember it's saved boot params... boot sd (0,2,0) (if memory serves me right), Will get it up (assuming hard disk still spins up)... otherwise its a parts machine... First come, first served... otherwise... to the recycling center it will go... Lincoln From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 31 21:40:48 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:40:48 -0800 Subject: OT: touch-tone phones, was Re: Beehive terminals References: <200512301751560377.1B9913F9@10.0.0.252> <200512311555.KAA12013@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B74F40.84F2F51D@cs.ubc.ca> der Mouse wrote: > I don't think > curiosity is worth risking breaking the one really good DTMF phone I > have, so I can't trace my circuit to tell how well it matches your > schematic. Well, I was curious: here's the schematic of my 'main' phone, an Automatic Electric touch-tone from 1969. ... makes a little more sense than the Bell schematic. http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/touchTone1969.gif You can see the one transistor formed into an oscillator with two resonant circuits. I too was rather surprised/amused at it's simplicity when I RE'd it. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 31 21:41:26 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 19:41:26 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B74F65.6C5E161E@cs.ubc.ca> On the topic of bit-slices, and an earlier thread which mentioned 'pre-announced chips that never made it into production': The last quarter of the 1975 Fairchild CMOS databook is dedicated to a section titled "Products Planned for 1975" and all the sheets in the section are stamped "Preliminary". Most of the devices made it into the standard 4000-series, but the ones I always found rather curious were a group of devices: 34703: 16*4 parallel/serial FIFO 34704: data-path switch, 4-bit wide 34705: arithmetic logic register stack, 4-bit wide 34706: 16*4 FILO program stack 34707: data access register, 4-bit wide 34710: 16*4 clocked RAM which seem to be intended for implementing CMOS-based bit-slice processors. I never saw or heard about the devices anywhere else. I speculate it's one of those places where Fairchild missed the boat (there's a rather limited market for building bit-slice processors from multiple chips and slow CMOS in the era of the microprocessor). From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 31 21:45:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:45:38 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? Message-ID: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> I'm looking for something Unix-ey to run on this 80286 system. It has 640KB RAM, and uses prorietary memory modules, so even Minix is going to be an extremely tight fit. Mostly out of curiosity, I'd like to try Xenix on it. Does anyone have install images I could "evaluate"? Xenix 286 was apparenly (judging by some BIOS parameters) a supported OS on this Compaq. Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Dec 31 22:23:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:23:27 -0500 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:45:38 -0600 Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm looking for something Unix-ey to run on this 80286 system. It > has 640KB RAM, and uses prorietary memory modules, so even Minix is > going to be an extremely tight fit. Mostly out of curiosity, I'd like > to try Xenix on it. > Early version 1 Minix should run fine on it. Remember that the first version of Minix was targeted at PC-XT systems without a hard drive. Xenix 286 does sound like a better choice. Also don't forget Coherent. I am pretty sure it runs on a 286 but will require more memory. Find some Intel Above Boards to add memory. Is this machine one of the original Compaq Deskpro 286 machines? Those are built like a sherman tank, very solid. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 31 22:31:32 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 22:31:32 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B75B24.40007@mdrconsult.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 21:45:38 -0600 > Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> I'm looking for something Unix-ey to run on this 80286 system. It >>has 640KB RAM, and uses prorietary memory modules, so even Minix is >>going to be an extremely tight fit. Mostly out of curiosity, I'd like >>to try Xenix on it. >> > > Early version 1 Minix should run fine on it. Remember that the > first version of Minix was targeted at PC-XT systems without a > hard drive. > > Xenix 286 does sound like a better choice. Also don't forget > Coherent. I am pretty sure it runs on a 286 but will require > more memory. Find some Intel Above Boards to add memory. > > Is this machine one of the original Compaq Deskpro 286 machines? > Those are built like a sherman tank, very solid. No, it's a laptop SLT/286, which makes adding RAM problematic. I can get upgrade modules, but they seem to run about $15-30/MB. Maybe reasonable, but not happenin'. :) But yeah, built very solid, and its only problems were a dead disk, a busted IDE cable, and the dead Dallas clock battery. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 31 22:50:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:50:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: One more try to give away an old Sparc 1+ workstation... In-Reply-To: <1136086641.29136.119.camel@ssh-backdoor> References: <1136086641.29136.119.camel@ssh-backdoor> Message-ID: <200601010455.XAA22748@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Subject: One more try to give away an old Sparc 1+ workstation... > 15 or 16" monitor (1024x768?) (Sony Trinitron) Unless the thing has a really funky framebuffer in it, it's 1152x900. > First come, first served... otherwise... to the recycling center it > will go... Much as I hate to see anything working scrapped (I hope you'd pull the disk and RAM first!), I already have a 1+ and cannot justify putting even shipping costs into getting another one.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 31 22:56:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:56:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601010604.BAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I find it a great pity that now that transistors have become so cheap > (particularly when in ICs), most people don't care how many are used, > and most modern designs use far too many of them. "Too many" in what sense? :) > It's amazing what could be done with 2 or 3 of the things, but those > clever designs have been mostly forgotten. Yes...at least in part because they tend to need a pile of other things, like capacitors and inductors, which are difficult to stick onto ICs. I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with using several dozen transistors on a chip die instead of a couple of transistors and a half-dozen miscellanous discrete passives. Well, except that it leaves less opportunity to express hack value. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Dec 30 06:39:08 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:39:08 +0000 Subject: Microwriter hard reset? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B52A6C.1070000@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone have a user manual for a Microwriter MW4 chording keyboard-thing? Somewhere, I think I do. I'll have to search for it. > I have one of these > devices which I am currently running off my bench supply (4.8V) in place > of the NiCd. As you've realised, this is another one of those devices where the voltage "regulation" is done by the NiCds. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Dec 30 18:56:24 2005 From: rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 00:56:24 +0000 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: could this be a ram problem. wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on satellites due to its reliability by the way.. do you know the voltage / power requirements for an original microwriter.. i' havn't powered it up since i bought it!! Roger On 31 Dec 2005, at 00:32, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone really know the RCA 1802 processor hardware? > > I am still debugging the microwriter, and have not got very far. I have > an RCA user manual on the processor which seems quite comprehensive, I > am > asusming it's accurate. > > > I thought it was a defective 1802 chip, but another one pulled from an > old board shows identical behaviour (right down to locking up after > typing 8 characters on the microwriter keyboard). I can't believe 2 > have > failed in exactly the same way. Unless of course this is a well-known > problem. > > Any thoughts? > > -tony > > From rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Dec 30 19:16:07 2005 From: rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 01:16:07 +0000 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: could this be a ram problem. wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on satellites due to its reliability by the way.. do you know the voltage / power requirements for an original microwriter.. i' havn't powered it up since i bought it!! Roger On 31 Dec 2005, at 00:32, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone really know the RCA 1802 processor hardware? > > I am still debugging the microwriter, and have not got very far. I have > an RCA user manual on the processor which seems quite comprehensive, I > am > asusming it's accurate. > > > I thought it was a defective 1802 chip, but another one pulled from an > old board shows identical behaviour (right down to locking up after > typing 8 characters on the microwriter keyboard). I can't believe 2 > have > failed in exactly the same way. Unless of course this is a well-known > problem. > > Any thoughts? > > -tony > > From mandoline at cwgsy.net Sat Dec 31 09:33:39 2005 From: mandoline at cwgsy.net (Andre) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:33:39 -0000 Subject: (FS) Amstrad NC100 Notepad computer Message-ID: <000601c60e1f$930c26e0$0b01a8c0@nemesis> Hi. Just found this in my spares box. I was going to salvage the display but its not big enough for what I wanted it for. It seems to work fine, so if anyone wants to add it to their collection make me an offer. -A From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 31 13:00:16 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 11:00:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Toy- 8088 SBC In-Reply-To: <20051208205652.1c78535e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20051231190016.45760.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> this is just way too groovy. As soon as I get the kit from BGMicro to iron out my own circuit boards (and they're currently out of stock), I'm going to try my hand at etching the board for the 80188 robot brain board. The only foreseeable kink is the need to drill the holes before etching but after developing or whatever. Standard drill bits have a tendency to tear up the lans if you do it afterwards (although I believe you can lessen this by grinding the bits at a different angle, like I'm going to do that anytime soon. Maybe you can buy drill bits ready for this sort of app?). I actually have a small CNC milling machine, but it's not yet ready for prime time. Problems problems... Vesta freely gave me the rom images for the FORTH interpreter and the BASIC/BIOS (the picture of the finished board shows a BASIC and a BIOS chip - will have to make further inquiries about that). Doesn't mean they won't mind if it's distributed, but they thought I was inquiring because I wanted to use the thing for some constructive purpose. And recommended some of their newer products. I'll have to shoot them a note myself... And I guess it was dopey to ask if there was a fdc. You had already said it was primarily ttl. okey dokey :D I haven't bought anything from BG in a long time. "That" woman who often comes to the phone - ain't she just the sweetest l'il ol' thang LOL LOL. You'd figure after being in business for as long as they have, you'd get barked at once in a while. --- Scott Stevens wrote: > On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 18:55:58 -0800 (PST) > Chris M wrote: > > > Nice acquisition. Vesta also designed the 80188 > based > > robot brain from Radio Electronics circa 1987. I > was > > successful in obtaining the FORTH and BASIC/BIOS > rom > > images (theyre still around). It took 2 tries. It > pays > > to be persistent. I dont imagine your kit came > with > > the circuit board artwork? And is there a floppy > > interface (if so, which chip?). > > No, it is a very plain SBC. It has I/O ports made > with standard > 20-pin TTL gates and a National Semicondutor A/D > converter > (ADC0809). It has no storage or 'advanced' IO. It > has four open > ROM sockets, though, and you can burn EPROMs right > on the board. > The console for the BASIC interpreter is a serial > port. > > With it's all off-the-shelf parts, I plan to use it > as a launching > pad for further development (and yes, I _am_ slowly > clearing the > piles of equipment and making my way to the > electronics bench over > thar across the room) > > The only 'key' component in it is the on-ROM BASIC > firmware. I > will need to communicate with Vesta before giving > that out. If I > do and they are agreeable I can and will share the > ROM image and > schematics. It's a simple two-layer design and > there's no reason > in the world why it couldn't be reproduced. If I > get serious I'll > want to clone an augmented/expandable version of it > anyway. > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Dec 31 07:07:21 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:07:21 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: <43B5EA7E.6070808@oldskool.org> References: <43B5EA7E.6070808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051231080615.043c5728@boff-net.dhs.org> Forget that; wtf are you doing with an MP5 laying on the ground in open access, half under a red binder? -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:18 PM 12/30/2005, you wrote: >Gary Sparkes wrote: >>>>I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally >>>>got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ >>> >>>Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it sorted? :-) >>These were the after.... > >What model of computer was the guitar? ;-) >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) >World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ >A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ >Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005 From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Dec 31 07:09:55 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:09:55 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20051231080835.0441cc50@boff-net.dhs.org> BTW: Gary, I see that you also use BayNetworks equipment. If you need to, you can always throw me a line to talk shop... though, I use Token Ring and you use Ethernet from the looks of it, the firmware, etc,etc is the same. -John Boffemmyer IV At 08:29 PM 12/30/2005, you wrote: >I hear everyone talking about storing their collections and whatnot. > >But what about HOW they're stored? > >Or, if not collections, how you keep your equipment... > >I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally >got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ > >How's everyone else keep their stuff? Hopefully a little better then I.. :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005