From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 00:23:05 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:40 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a >>complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, >>will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to get > > > Well, I can't really speak for the specific hardware you're going to use. > However, I've taken 100MB and 200MB IBM drives out of my PDP-11/73, > connected them to a Linux box via a SCSI controller, dd'd them off to a disk > image. I've then ftp'd the disk image to a Mac, written the disk image to > CD-R. Then taken the CD-R, placed it in the PDP-11/73's CD-ROM drive and > booted the PDP-11 off of CD-ROM. > > What I've not attempted to do is dd a disk image back to a SCSI HD. It's on > my list of things to try, but who knows what decade I'll finally find the > time. I haven't done this on a PDP-11, but have done it with SCO Unix, Linux, and FreeBSD drives. It's all geometry. I do know that BSD v2 sets partitions on cylinder boundaries, so the principles should be the same as in later platforms. You need a target disk with the same head/sector geometry as the source. The number of cylinders is a lot less critical, as long as the target isn't smaller than the source. You can actually get away with using an unmatched target as long as fsck never runs. :) I dunno about other OS disks. The little I know about RT-11's filesystem implies that most any old disk should work. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 00:51:26 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:43 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >>What I've not attempted to do is dd a disk image back to a SCSI HD. It's on >>my list of things to try, but who knows what decade I'll finally find the >>time. > > I haven't done this on a PDP-11, but have done it with SCO Unix, >Linux, and FreeBSD drives. It's all geometry. I do know that BSD >v2 sets partitions on cylinder boundaries, so the principles should >be the same as in later platforms. > > You need a target disk with the same head/sector geometry as the >source. The number of cylinders is a lot less critical, as long as >the target isn't smaller than the source. > > You can actually get away with using an unmatched target as long >as fsck never runs. :) > > I dunno about other OS disks. The little I know about RT-11's >filesystem implies that most any old disk should work. My idea is actually to first dd the HD to a disk image, then prep that disk image under SIMH or E11. Copy the data I want on the HD to the image using the emulator, and then dd it back to the HD. Logically it should work just fine. With RT-11, you shouldn't even need to dd the HD to a disk image, just create whatever size disk image and dd it out there. The other OS's would be a bit more picky. It should be a good way to get a large amount of data onto a PDP-11, however, I've yet to actually have a need to attempt it (I've just used Ethernet or CD-R to get data on). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 1 02:12:28 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: Museum of Computing Launch Party References: Message-ID: <009401c48ff3$0b7a8420$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> We would love to visit! Just a bit far away at this time! Best of luck with your event! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Webb" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: Museum of Computing Launch Party > The Museum of Computing is holding a launch party for its latest > exhibition, 'Computers on the Move' the history of mobile computing. > > If anybody would like to join us you would be very welcome. > > Monday 13th September, 18:00-20:30 > > The Museum of Computing > The University of Bath in Swindon > Oakfield Campus > Marlowe Ave > Swindon > SN3 3JR > > Simon Webb > Curator, Museum of Computing > www.museum-of-computing.org.uk > Tel: 07939 582544 > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 1 02:55:33 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040901095533.139f4fc9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:00:00 +0100 classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk wrote: > I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a > complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, > will it copy all the blocks from the device, It will copy every sector from the disk, from the first to the last. > or am I going to get > messed around by the PC BIOS INT13 doing stupid CHS translation on the > otherwise LBA device and potentially miss some blocks at the end of > the device? CHS and LBA are more or less IDE / BIOS "problems". > Does Linux go through the SCSI cards BIOS or does it talk > directly to the carsd hardware & so do raw LBA? Linux does not use the BIOS to access disks. Even for IDE disks. > Of course, it probably all depends on the version of linux I'd use. The version has no effect on this. If you have no Linux machine yet, you may have a look at "knoppix". -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 1 03:39:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: More DEC VT520 terminals available on the VCM Message-ID: I just put three more DEC VT520 terminals up for sale at $25 each on the Vintage Computer Marketplace: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=1133 That's a multiple quantity listing. These are great all-around terminals: very versatile! See listing for more info. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Sep 1 03:20:17 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:44 2005 Subject: Wanted: BA11-N parts... In-Reply-To: <200408282139.RAA13354@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <412E1C37.11229.579F178E@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20040826133755.03ba82b0@mail.30below.com> <200408282139.RAA13354@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <41358641.4060907@hp.com> I've just acquired a BA11-N chassis with a H786 and a H9273 (4x9 Q18) backplane. I'm planning to rebuild a 11/03 with this chassis.. Problem is the chassis is naked..I missing: - logic box cover (i.e. the box that the entire chassis slides in) - rear panel Anybody has the above spares, please contact me offlist, thanks. /wai-sun squidster3128 <_at_> yahoo <_dot_> com From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 1 04:08:19 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: References: <16692.62780.874217.132582@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200408281039.GAA01636@parse.com> <59174.216.218.236.136.1093875680.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> <16692.62780.874217.132582@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040901050807.031a9f78@192.168.0.1> At 07:17 PM 8/31/2004, you wrote: > Leave the ScotchBrite for what ot does well: post-dinner lasagna... Or Apple Computer cases? :-) Ed From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 1 05:52:16 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1094035936.29822.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-08-30 at 15:00, classiccomp-tech@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk wrote: > I've a couple of SCSI hard drives (DEC RZ24-S) that I'd like to do a > complete image of. If I stick them in a linux box and do a dd on them, > will it copy all the blocks from the device, or am I going to get > messed around by the PC BIOS INT13 doing stupid CHS translation on the > otherwise LBA device and potentially miss some blocks at the end of > the device? Does Linux go through the SCSI cards BIOS or does it talk > directly to the carsd hardware & so do raw LBA? Linux will just use the SCSI card's hardware - it won't touch the PC's BIOS at all, so you've got nothing to worry about there. > Of course, it probably all depends on the version of linux I'd use. Not really. Anything from the last 5 or 6 years (maybe longer) should have support for the 2940 controllers, and procedure will be the same on all of them. Actually, I think the first time I ever did this was with the SCSI interface that was on board a Pro Audio Spectrum sound card way back when and it worked fine even then... > Any suggestions? My only experience is really with Slackware and Redhat (and SLS in the early days!) but they shouldn't give you any problems. Freebsd is another option and should just work the same way as far as what you're needing to do. > (note, I've not actually got a linux box setup to do this at this > point in time, I've an AHA2940 lined up to stick in a PC and then > figure out the wonderfull world of SCSI on linux...) It all just works - don't worry about it :) Aside - the DEC drives are formatted to 512 byte sectors aren't they? I've got some SCSI drives formatted for Acorn hardware that I need to image, but they're formatted to 256 byte sectors and I'm not sure if I'm going to run into problems there - probably all sorts of assumptions are made in software about drives using 512 byte sectors, and I don't think many SCSI drives will even format to 256 bytes per sector these days... cheers Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 1 06:08:41 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: Goodies available, #1 In-Reply-To: <007d01c48887$5d0a86f0$46406b43@66067007> References: <200408221307570958.0B122EF6@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040901070625.031a1338@192.168.0.1> At 04:34 PM 8/22/2004, you wrote: >I have tried to send you an email off list and get No Service available >error. I wanted the DEC VT220 guide if no one else has asked for it? >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bruce Lane" >To: >Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:07 PM >Subject: Goodies available, #1 Bruce, Ditto when trying to send you Emulex software you wanted. Apologies to list, but can't get through to him. Ed From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 1 08:12:25 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: Teledisk problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409010612250242.3D1593C9@192.168.42.129> Hi, Richard, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 31-Aug-04 at 22:16 Richard Lynch wrote: >Maybe someone with experience using Teledisk can help me with a problem. >I have an 8" drive connected to an IBM PC/AT floppy controller, with the 34 My recollection is that you need to use something like a CompatiCard instead of a standard FDD controller for the 8" drives. Something about controller BIOS? Perhaps someone else with clearer memory (no pun intended) on this subject will comment. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 1 08:25:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> My idea is actually to first dd the HD to a disk image, then Zane> prep that disk image under SIMH or E11. Copy the data I want Zane> on the HD to the image using the emulator, and then dd it back Zane> to the HD. Logically it should work just fine. With RT-11, Zane> you shouldn't even need to dd the HD to a disk image, just Zane> create whatever size disk image and dd it out there. The other Zane> OS's would be a bit more picky. Not necessarily. If you tell the simulator that it has an MSCP disk, the OS should just accept whatever size it is, because the rule of MSCP is that the disk tells the OS its size and the OS makes no assumptions. Certainly RSTS does this correctly. As for "geometry" -- MSCP doesn't have any that the OS can see, or at best it has just some vague hints that actually serve no real purpose. That certainly fits with modern drives -- anything built in the last 10 years or so has a software geometry that has no connection to reality, and a real geometry that's (a) not visible, (b) much more complex than tracks and cylinders of fixed size. Look at IDE disks, for example; they all claim to have 15 heads and 63 sectors, or whatever is the max in the old IDE conventions. But those numbers have nothing to do with reality, they exist only for backward compatibility. paul From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 1 08:39:12 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: DATA I/O Unisite Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409010639120903.3D2E1BD1@192.168.42.129> Hi, Hutch, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Sep-04 at 07:27 Steven_R_Hutchins@raytheon.com wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a Maintenance Manual for Unisite programmer? >Data I/O claims " they do not have any" yet the Users Guide for the unisite Data I/O is lying to you, or the person responding to your question was ill-informed. DIO is, unfortunately, well on their way to becoming the Microsoft of device programmers in that they have maintenance information available, but they do not believe in releasing it or doing anything else to support self-maintained programmer owners. They've gotten excessively greedy in recent times, and they want EVERYthing to come in for service. How do I know they're shining you on? Because I have a maintenance manual for the earlier Unisites. I picked it up during a scrounge run in the Bay Area several years ago. If you want to try and bamboozle them, ask about the availability of part number 972-0014-003. It may have been superseded by a later edition. >I am getting "waveform Generator Failure" upon bootup. If you cannot get DIO to cooperate, manual-wise, I believe I have a spare WG board, still attached to a Unisite rear panel. I could probably be convinced to part with it for a small fee. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 1 09:20:50 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040831155066202bf5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ronald Wayne may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:53:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > Most complaints I think are just sour grapes. :-) > >Sour I may be, but there were plenty of sources of neat computer >"junk" before eBay. And I liked those sources, thank-you very much. >They cultivated a sense of patience and appreciation. That's easy for you to say -- you probably live in a decently populated area. In the area that *I* live in, almost 50% of the classic computers in the area are owned by 2 people, a friend of mine and me. And the rest, are basically unavailable. (Believe you me, I found a guy with a couple of Amiga 1200s he *said* he wanted to part with -- that was 5 years ago, and I've yet to see a machine or him. I've sent *several* reminders through "friends of friends" with no response. If there's something I need relatively quickly, ePay is the only way to fly. If it's something secondary, this list and my Tandy Model 100 list have proven *much* more fruitful than any local hunting grounds... and I've tried. Lemme tell ya, I've tried. >In my books, collecting old computer stuff has as much to do with the >hunt as anything else. I'd have better luck hunting pink elephants. Booze is pretty easy to find in this town... > If the hunt is turned into a keyword search >and instant gratification, it looses its appeal. Why? I think it's >because you learn a lot more about computers while hunting them down >than you do with them at your finger tips. I learn a *lot* more working with the computers, than I ever learned about hunting for one. I looked for a VAX for a few years, and learned *very little* about them; as there were very few people here locally who'd eve *heard* of them, let alone knew anything about them. Once I had gotten one (well, several) I actually started learning how to use the durned thing. But that's just my take on things. I realize that regionally situations can be very different - it's just in my region, life in the classic computer world sucks. ePay helps fill a void that can't be filled here by a little hunting. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From kurt at k-huhn.com Wed Sep 1 10:00:50 2004 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (kurt@k-huhn.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: New toys: 1944 IBM !!! Warning OT In-Reply-To: <375A4FCE-FAB5-11D8-AAFC-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040830120058.009e8a90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <375A4FCE-FAB5-11D8-AAFC-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040901150050.GA16734@k-huhn.com> On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 11:48:43AM -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Aug 30, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Joe R. wrote: > > >A 1944 made IBM (wait for it!) Carbine! > >Yeap, a gun! > > > International Bullet Machines ??? During the WWII years, all manner of manufacturers made military gear. Ford made thousands of guns whose design lent itself well to stamped steel - a manufacturing method that Ford and other auto makers excelled at. --Kurt From allain at panix.com Wed Sep 1 10:26:09 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Being able to meet Bob Supnik personally at the VCFe (Thanks to Sellam), I bid any reservations against using SIMH farewell. Have had a hell of a nice time since then. Turns out my oldish PC (4.5 years) has the same speed as my best microVAX (<5Vups), as an aside. As I understand it, the way to get a decent screen up under the current SIMH arrangement is to run it networked to another machine with either X11 services or rlogin and there you can get the screen that you want. What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? John A. From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Sep 1 10:34:24 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, John Allain wrote: > Being able to meet Bob Supnik personally at the VCFe (Thanks to > Sellam), I bid any reservations against using SIMH farewell. > Have had a hell of a nice time since then. Turns out my oldish PC (4.5 > years) has the same speed as my best microVAX (<5Vups), as an aside. For some it works, for others it doesn't. SimH does not do exact simulation (for at least PDP-11 and VAX architectures) so its machine footprint to the operating system software is rather messy and confusing. That said.. it's decent. I use it for VAX, mostly. > As I understand it, the way to get a decent screen up under the current > SIMH arrangement is to run it networked to another machine with either > X11 services or rlogin and there you can get the screen that you want. Correct. So good luck on standalone systems, or on Win32 platforms in a command window. I did a VT module for it, as well as someone else, but Bob dumped it and favored the "telnet console" method. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 1 10:37:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Allain writes: John> Being able to meet Bob Supnik personally at the VCFe (Thanks to John> Sellam), I bid any reservations against using SIMH farewell. John> Have had a hell of a nice time since then. Turns out my oldish John> PC (4.5 years) has the same speed as my best microVAX (<5Vups), John> as an aside. John> As I understand it, the way to get a decent screen up under the John> current SIMH arrangement is to run it networked to another John> machine with either X11 services or rlogin and there you can John> get the screen that you want. John> What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 John> support that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could John> just connect the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do John> this? Any reasonable xterm-like tool in the Xwindows world has VT100 support. On Windows, there's Tera Term, which works well. I had troubles getting it going on WinXP, but that may be pilot error. paul From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Sep 1 11:04:42 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0400 9/1/04, John Allain wrote: >What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support that >I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect the actual >terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? I have done precisely this under Mac OS X. Took a real VT100, connected to a Keyspan USB serial adapter, modified /etc/ttys appropriately, and there you go. John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 1 11:11:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: John> At 11:26 AM -0400 9/1/04, John Allain wrote: >> What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support >> that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect >> the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? John> I have done precisely this under Mac OS X. Took a real VT100, John> connected to a Keyspan USB serial adapter, modified /etc/ttys John> appropriately, and there you go. Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that (presumably) can emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? paul From allain at panix.com Wed Sep 1 11:24:27 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1><5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com><05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <061901c49040$27874660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that > (presumably) can emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? No Mac machines here, or at least no OS-X class ones. The original question was for a PC/Win platform. The best solution so far seems be to give up on Win and go PC/Linux. John A. From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Sep 1 11:32:22 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <061901c49040$27874660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1><5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com><05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <061901c49040$27874660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, John Allain wrote: > The best solution so far seems be to give up on Win and go PC/Linux. Ahhhhhh.... Grasshopper!! At last, you begin to Understand...... ;} Cheers John From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Sep 1 11:43:18 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 12:11 PM -0400 9/1/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: > > John> At 11:26 AM -0400 9/1/04, John Allain wrote: > >> What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support > >> that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect > >> the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? > > John> I have done precisely this under Mac OS X. Took a real VT100, > John> connected to a Keyspan USB serial adapter, modified /etc/ttys > John> appropriately, and there you go. > >Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that (presumably) can >emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would perform hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked fine.] That it works as expected with SIMH is merely icing and perhaps useful for others to know. The stock Terminal application in OS X does not do a complete or satisfactory VT100 emulation, in my book. There are indeed other emulators that may or may not do the desired job. John From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 1 12:06:55 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at "Sep 1, 4 09:43:18 am" Message-ID: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> > > Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that (presumably) can > > emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? > > The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would > perform hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked > fine.] That it works as expected with SIMH is merely icing and > perhaps useful for others to know. I'm actually very happy to hear this. I have a serial adaptor hooked up to my dual G4 I intend to connect a terminal to, or possibly one of the Commodores that needs "network" access. > The stock Terminal application in OS X does not do a complete or > satisfactory VT100 emulation, in my book. There are indeed other > emulators that may or may not do the desired job. Is this Jaguar or Panther? Jag's is a bit lacking, but it's improved somewhat for Panther. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 12:10:28 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <061901c49040$27874660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1><5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com><05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <061901c49040$27874660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <41360284.7040906@mdrconsult.com> John Allain wrote: >>Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that >>(presumably) can emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? > > > No Mac machines here, or at least no OS-X class ones. > The original question was for a PC/Win platform. > The best solution so far seems be to give up on Win and go PC/Linux. John, that's the correct answer to almost any Windows-related question. *whistles* *runs for cover* Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 12:14:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.0 3287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.62663.286103.373260@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4136036E.2090301@mdrconsult.com> John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 12:11 PM -0400 9/1/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: >> >> John> At 11:26 AM -0400 9/1/04, John Allain wrote: >> >> What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support >> >> that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect >> >> the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? >> >> John> I have done precisely this under Mac OS X. Took a real VT100, >> John> connected to a Keyspan USB serial adapter, modified /etc/ttys >> John> appropriately, and there you go. >> >> Considering that Mac OS X has terminal emulators that (presumably) can >> emulate a VT100, why didn't you just use those? > > > The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would perform > hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked fine.] That > it works as expected with SIMH is merely icing and perhaps useful for > others to know. > > The stock Terminal application in OS X does not do a complete or > satisfactory VT100 emulation, in my book. There are indeed other > emulators that may or may not do the desired job. I haven't started Terminal.app in months. It's so-so for a local command line and abysmal for remote work with any other OS. The X11 code for OS X from Apple comes with a good xterm, and rxvt builds cleanly. Both behave generally well, and both can be keymapped to accomodate the remote OS's needs. Doc From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Sep 1 12:24:49 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> References: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0700 9/1/04, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The stock Terminal application in OS X does not do a complete or >> satisfactory VT100 emulation, in my book. There are indeed other >> emulators that may or may not do the desired job. > >Is this Jaguar or Panther? Jag's is a bit lacking, but it's improved somewhat >for Panther. Both. Just doesn't do what I want. [So I wrote my own. Might release it someday, but it almost certainly doesn't do what someone else might want, e.g., scrollback.] John From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 1 13:08:12 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4136100C.3060206@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"John" == John Allain writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > John> Being able to meet Bob Supnik personally at the VCFe (Thanks to > John> Sellam), I bid any reservations against using SIMH farewell. > John> Have had a hell of a nice time since then. Turns out my oldish > John> PC (4.5 years) has the same speed as my best microVAX (<5Vups), > John> as an aside. > > John> As I understand it, the way to get a decent screen up under the > John> current SIMH arrangement is to run it networked to another > John> machine with either X11 services or rlogin and there you can > John> get the screen that you want. > > John> What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 > John> support that I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could > John> just connect the actual terminal to a serial line. Anybody do > John> this? > >Any reasonable xterm-like tool in the Xwindows world has VT100 >support. > > > The best one I have found for Linux is 'xterm -132', then control/left-mouse and set the 'vt220 keyboard' flag. edit/edt actually is usefull in this mode. The gnome/kde terminal emulators are not as compatible with a real VT as xterm is, but you still have to discover where the function keys have been re-mapped to the PC's keyboard. Nice thing about Linux/simh, is that you can start it up in an xterm window, and it just works. No need to open a second window to do the actual work in, setting up the networking, running as root, etc... >On Windows, there's Tera Term, which works well. I had troubles >getting it going on WinXP, but that may be pilot error. > > paul > > Hyperterm (bwaaa-haaa-haaa). Worst emulation of a terminal by any commercial company, IMHO. Kermit-95 is one of the better terminal emulators available for Windows, but it isn't free. It also lets you transfer file in/out of the emulators (with appropriate kermit installed in the simulated os). None of the terminal emulators for windows will open a window directly on the same system (like a dos-box). You have to open a dos-box, start simh, open the terminal emulator, and attach to a port created by simh. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 13:12:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at Sep 01, 2004 09:43:18 AM Message-ID: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> > The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would > perform hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked > fine.] That it works as expected with SIMH is merely icing and > perhaps useful for others to know. Now I'm going to be tempted to hook a VT420 up to my G5 2x2 :^) > The stock Terminal application in OS X does not do a complete or > satisfactory VT100 emulation, in my book. There are indeed other > emulators that may or may not do the desired job. Terminal.app is a lot better than it used to be. The main problem I see is that trying to remap the keys is a total nightmare, and I've yet to figure out how to get the top row of the keypad remapped, which makes it worthless to me. The one possitive note, is it handles the double-height fonts correctly! If they'd get keyboard remapping improved, I think it could be just what I need. I've been threatening to buy a 3rd party terminal emulator for Mac OS X, but I simply can't find one that works they way I want. Most don't handle the double-height fonts correctly, and their keyboard support is spotty. Then there is the whole nightmarish mess of thier configuration menues. At this point I used a hacked .Xmodmap with xterm, but that means the fonts aren't quite right. Still at least the keyboard works the way I expect when I'm logged into OpenVMS (works good for PDP-10 and PDP-11 OS's as well). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 13:19:20 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:48 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Sep 01, 2004 11:26:09 AM Message-ID: <200409011819.i81IJLPI006514@onyx.spiritone.com> > What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support that > I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect the actual > terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? I have a shell script that works quite well for remapping the keyboard for a specific xterm. It works on AIX, IRIX, Solaris, and Linux (as well as others most likely), it doesn't work on Mac OS X. At one point, when I still had room, I had a VT100 hooked up to the Linux system I was using for running TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, but I could only get it working at something like 1200 baud. Another option I've used is to have a VT420 (my favorite type terminal) and connect it to a DECserver, and then use LAT to connect to the OS being emulated. Obviously this tends to be a little tricky to get setup right :^) I've had it working with TOPS-10 and RSX-11M. FYI, I don't emulate VAXen. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 13:23:12 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <4136036E.2090301@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Sep 01, 2004 12:14:22 PM Message-ID: <200409011823.i81INCWk006701@onyx.spiritone.com> > The X11 code for OS X from Apple comes with a good xterm, and rxvt > builds cleanly. Both behave generally well, and both can be keymapped > to accomodate the remote OS's needs. The xterm that Mac OS X ships with is totally braindead!!! They've disabled the '-xrm' flag, which of course I need :^( Zane From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Sep 1 13:00:26 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:26:09 EDT." <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200409011800.TAA13232@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "John Allain" said: > Being able to meet Bob Supnik personally at the VCFe (Thanks to > Sellam), I bid any reservations against using SIMH farewell. > Have had a hell of a nice time since then. Turns out my oldish PC (4.5 > years) has the same speed as my best microVAX (<5Vups), as an aside. > > As I understand it, the way to get a decent screen up under the current > SIMH arrangement is to run it networked to another machine with either > X11 services or rlogin and there you can get the screen that you want. > > What I'm looking for I think is a command shell with VT100 support that > I can run SIMH in locally. Alternately I could just connect the actual > terminal to a serial line. Anybody do this? I have a headless Linux* box running simh to which is attached a terminal (actually a Mac SE, but a real terminal works fine), once logged in and simh is started it looks pretty much like a real PDP-11. My 486 DX4 connected to a Qume QVT103 and running DOS & E11 looks more convincing though...blinkenlites even :-) * An old Dell Optiplex 166MMX running a cut-down Red-Hat 5.2. Linux is the answer... :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 1 13:47:36 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH References: <4136036E.2090301@mdrconsult.com> <200409011823.i81INCWk006701@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16694.6472.493462.109282@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> The X11 code for OS X from Apple comes with a good xterm, and rxvt >> builds cleanly. Both behave generally well, and both can be >> keymapped to accomodate the remote OS's needs. Zane> The xterm that Mac OS X ships with is totally braindead!!! Zane> They've disabled the '-xrm' flag, which of course I need :^( Fortunately, you could just grab your favorite good open source X terminal emulator and build it... paul From shirker at mooli.org.uk Wed Sep 1 13:54:56 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> References: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would > > perform hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked > > fine.] > I'm actually very happy to hear this. I have a serial adaptor hooked up to > my dual G4 I intend to connect a terminal to, I am too - I have exactly the same plan, and on a dual G4 ;) John - please could you elaborate on a) what USB<->serial adapter you used*, b) the necessary changes to /etc/ttys, c) which OS X version you got this working under? * since I don't have one yet, it'd be better to buy one which is known to work. Thanks, Ed. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 14:04:56 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <200409011823.i81INCWk006701@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200409011823.i81INCWk006701@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <41361D58.5040400@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The X11 code for OS X from Apple comes with a good xterm, and rxvt >>builds cleanly. Both behave generally well, and both can be keymapped >>to accomodate the remote OS's needs. > > > The xterm that Mac OS X ships with is totally braindead!!! They've > disabled the '-xrm' flag, which of course I need :^( Zane, are you talking about the X11 xterm or Terminal.app? I'm running Apple's X11 here on 10.3, and the xterm that came with X11 honors -xrm. $ xterm -xrm '*cursorBlink:true' starts an xterm with blinking cursor, and $ xterm -xrm '*cursorBlink:false' starts one with a solid cursor. Doc From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Sep 1 14:44:50 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: References: <200409011706.KAA16808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:54 PM +0100 9/1/04, Shirker wrote: >On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > The point of my exercise was to verify that a real VT100 would >> > perform hooked up to OS X through a USB serial adapter. [It worked >> > fine.] >> I'm actually very happy to hear this. I have a serial adaptor hooked up to >> my dual G4 I intend to connect a terminal to, > >I am too - I have exactly the same plan, and on a dual G4 ;) > >John - please could you elaborate on a) what USB<->serial adapter you >used*, b) the necessary changes to /etc/ttys, c) which OS X version you >got this working under? You bet... a) Keyspan "High Speed USB Serial Adapter USA-19HS b) Add a line similar to the following to /etc/ttys: tty.USA19H181P1.1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure c) 10.2.8 [PowerBook G4] and 10.2.8(G5) [Yes, I hooked it up to my dual 2GHz G5.] John From AppleTO at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:05:57 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: eBay madness In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1047a6e604090113057e56653f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:20:50 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > That's easy for you to say -- you probably live in a decently populated > area. In the area that *I* live in, almost 50% of the classic computers in > the area are owned by 2 people, a friend of mine and me. While you are correct in that assumption, there are many ways to find stuff. For example: the last city I lived in had a buy/sell paper, and people from surrounding communities would pick it up (or, more recently, get it online). That expanded the radius to a 100 km or so. For one particularly hard to find item, I had a buyer who was willing to drive 300 km to pick it up. Even so, my problem isn't so much with buying/swapping stuff online as it is about eBay-like institutions. eBay is a culture without a community. That is to say that you have buyers and you have sellers and you have an established set of behaviours, but there is very little social interaction. When you go into a small shop, you get to know people and they get to know you and you talk. When you buy things off a mailing list or usenet or web forums, there is a "shop" (so to speak) for people to meet. Buying or selling on eBay seems to parallel buying stuff from a department store. You end up with salesmen who may or may not know a thing about what they are selling. Either way, their job rarely involves the customer. Either way, you and the people around you are trying to get in and out as quickly as possible. Which may be why I avoid that type of store in every day life. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 1 15:12:01 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Best keyboards you've used ever! References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040826070902.03153cc8@192.168.0.1> <0b8e7fe44c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <413390C1.5BB0905E@cs.ubc.ca> <16691.39157.158654.116525@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <41362D0E.22A782F0@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Koning wrote: > > PLATO 3 used reed switches, and I believe PLATO IV did likewise. > Liquid proofing is clearly a good reason: those systems were intended > for use by students (of all ages) and were certainly likely to have > beverages spilled on them. Because of how they were built, a good > scrub under hot water would fix them right up. Jos Dreesen wrote: > > Tektronix also used this. The Tek 4014 has such a keyboard. Thanks, I went looking for photos of Plato terminals but it's difficult to tell from the limited resolution of the ones I found. I'll keep on the lookout for photos of Plato,CDC and Tektronix terminals. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 1 15:17:34 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Liberty Freedom One Plus (was Re: My GE Terminet 300) References: <7c597ee34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <41339040.729BA357@cs.ubc.ca> <7e82cbe64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <41362E5B.B7F867EE@cs.ubc.ca> > > I'm using the terminal as a console for a minicomputer and something I > > have found useful is that the printer/aux port can be set into > > 'bi-directional' mode, making it possible to connect another computer to > > the second port for transparent downloading and uploading between the two > > computers without having to switch cables or requiring a switch box. > > Neat trick. I might build a second terminal cable then. I should have mentioned: Note the aux port is DCE whereas the main port is DTE even though they are both female DB25. (Granted you can figure this out with a meter.) [BEGIN RANT] This sort of silliness used to (and still does) annoy me every time I have to deal with it. My understanding is that the EIA/RS-232 standard specifies that: DCE == female DB25 DTE == male DB25 If manufacturers had followed this there would be no confusion about plugging things together, you would be able to look at a terminal/interface/modem/cable/whatever and know what you were dealing with and life would be very simple (and you wouldn't need gender changers). Some (many) manufacturers screwed this up (mostly terminal manufacturers doing female DB25 for DTE, in my experience) and you can never rely on anything and have to make measurements, etc. Oh well, it's pretty much a dead technology now anyways, except to us vintage types. [END RANT] > I would like to know what triggers the "WAIT" LED on the keyboard > I suspect the WAIT LED is triggered by DCD going inactive or something like > that. I find no mention in the manual of the WAIT LED and my keyboard doesn't have it. The terminal does have fairly extensive support for local-edit/block-sending, so it may indicate 'busy sending' after one initiates a block-send. > and what "U.K." is supposed to signify in the VT52 and VT100 entries. Can't help on that as the manual does does not mention the DEC emulations. It seems Liberty were making revisions quite quickly, even the manual I have (which did come in the box with the terminal) has some discrepancies with the actual terminal. > Any chance you could scan the manual? Some day I should go shopping (cringe..!) and get a digital camera and/or scanner, but, like a good vintage-techy, I figure that Any Day Now a discarded/surplus/repairable scanner will drop across my path. :) (I'll keep a scan in mind when one does... sorry for not being able to provide it just now) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 15:21:31 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <41361D58.5040400@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Sep 01, 2004 02:04:56 PM Message-ID: <200409012021.i81KLV5B009770@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane, are you talking about the X11 xterm or Terminal.app? I'm > running Apple's X11 here on 10.3, and the xterm that came with X11 > honors -xrm. > > $ xterm -xrm '*cursorBlink:true' > > starts an xterm with blinking cursor, and > > $ xterm -xrm '*cursorBlink:false' > > starts one with a solid cursor. The xterm under Apples version of X11, under both 10.2 and 10.3. I'll have to try to doublecheck on the specifics. It could be it simply doens't support remapping the keys. Zane From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Wed Sep 1 06:27:01 2004 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins@Raytheon.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: DATA I/O Unisite Manual Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get a Maintenance Manual for Unisite programmer? Data I/O claims " they do not have any" yet the Users Guide for the unisite ( downloadable from their website) lists Maintenance Manual under options. I am getting "waveform Generator Failure" upon bootup. "Hutch" From cc at corti-net.de Wed Sep 1 09:46:49 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Teledisk problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Richard Lynch wrote: > disk, but I can't be sure because I can't recreate the disk. It gets to 32 > sectors and can't find anymore. I have a similar problem trying to use > Anadisk to format an 8" floppy. I set it to 48 sectors, but it only writes > out to 32 sectors. What disk format are you trying to create? Nearly all PC floppy controllers (and probably other controllers, too) can't handle more than 32 sectors/track. I've found one that could do more (up to about 50) but I don't remember the type right now (maybe a DP8473). Other things that could cause problems are the GAP sizes which can't be made too small. I tried it when I wanted to create 52 sec/trk MFM disks, although 26 sec/trk FM works fine. Christian From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Sep 1 09:52:26 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC and PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I need to match the paint for the logo restoration. Contact me offlist if you wish: squidster3128 _at_ yahoo _dot_ com /wai-sun From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Sep 1 10:46:05 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: WORST keyboards ever In-Reply-To: <007d01c48e8b$afd22640$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200409011546.i81Fk8TG013504@mail.bcpl.net> On 30 Aug 2004 at 7:20, Jay West wrote: > Actually, it probably would have worked, as a common (although not > required) setup for HP terminals was that the serial interface in the > host was set for external baud rate, and the terminal provided the > clocking. Indeed, it did work. The 264x terminals had a rotary switch that set the baud rate clock supplied to the interface from 9600 down to 110. It had a final position, "EXT," to set the baud rate from a clock received from the interface (though I don't recall ever seeing a terminal in use with this position set). Some interfaces, such as the 12880A CRT interface, set their communication rate from the clock supplied by the terminal. With such a setup, one could slow down a terminal listing by rotating the switch to a lower baud rate. Because the switch was a break-before-make type, one could even "tease" the switch into an intermediate position (e.g., between 9600 and 4800 baud) to freeze the listing. But I don't know why anyone would. Two of the primary operating systems of the day, DOS and RTE, had terminal interruptibility (and, although I'm not certain, I seem to recall that TSB supported XON/XOFF). Pressing any key while terminal output was in progress would pause the output between lines and issue a prompt for a system command. So pausing a long listing was a matter of hitting SPACE to stop and RETURN to resume. The only times I ever recall using the baud rate switch to slow down the output was when running the hardware diagnostics. Even then, a few characters were typically lost during the switching, showing up as filled boxes (the DEL character graphic) on the screen. -- Dave From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Wed Sep 1 13:13:27 2004 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins@Raytheon.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: DATA I/O Unisite Manual Message-ID: Bruce, I have read a number of old post's on Data-IO...and they seem to be right in line with what you state on their tech support on their products. I called a different sales engineer and he was quite nervous when I mentioned the user's guide listed the maintenance manual. He finally fessed up and said they used to have a service manual available( which also came with diagnostic software ) but they were having legal issues with ICs not being programmed right after UNISITEs were repaired by other than "their certified factory". He proceeded to tell me that to become a certified repair point for DATA IO , a training and certification could be arranged ...for a price. I then asked "do you have a list of the service centers in the US? " His response was" there are none besides the one in Redmond,WA (Data-IOs main office), the cost to become certified is very expensive". He is sending me a quote. Please send me ...offline... a price for the waveform generator board. Hutch "Bruce Lane" cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: DATA I/O Unisite Manual cctech-bounces@cla ssiccmp.org 09/01/2004 09:39 AM Please respond to "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Hi, Hutch, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Sep-04 at 07:27 Steven_R_Hutchins@raytheon.com wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a Maintenance Manual for Unisite programmer? >Data I/O claims " they do not have any" yet the Users Guide for the unisite Data I/O is lying to you, or the person responding to your question was ill-informed. DIO is, unfortunately, well on their way to becoming the Microsoft of device programmers in that they have maintenance information available, but they do not believe in releasing it or doing anything else to support self-maintained programmer owners. They've gotten excessively greedy in recent times, and they want EVERYthing to come in for service. How do I know they're shining you on? Because I have a maintenance manual for the earlier Unisites. I picked it up during a scrounge run in the Bay Area several years ago. If you want to try and bamboozle them, ask about the availability of part number 972-0014-003. It may have been superseded by a later edition. >I am getting "waveform Generator Failure" upon bootup. If you cannot get DIO to cooperate, manual-wise, I believe I have a spare WG board, still attached to a Unisite rear panel. I could probably be convinced to part with it for a small fee. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From schoenfeldephraim at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 13:44:47 2004 From: schoenfeldephraim at yahoo.com (Ephraim Schoenfeld) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: xenix Message-ID: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Hi I am trying to locate XENIX install disks would you know where to look ? I am helping a friend get a cnc machine up something made by cybermation Any help would greatly appreciated Regards Ephraim Schoenfeld _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 1 17:03:03 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040901220303.GA21583@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:37:52AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > Any reasonable xterm-like tool in the Xwindows world has VT100 > support. Close, certainly, but not necessarily close enough... I was using a Gnome xterm window (RedHat 9) as my "terminal" to klh10 running TOPS-20. For most stuff, things were fine. Emacs, though, didn't render quite right. I ended up hooking a dumb terminal up to a serial port and _that_ worked perfectly. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Sep-2004 21:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.8 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -92.59 F (-69.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.3 kts Grid 003 Barometer 679.1 mb (10659. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 18:13:10 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <20040901220303.GA21583@bos7.spole.gov> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040831154538.03287900@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040901095520.05089558@mail.30below.com> <05eb01c49038$0234ce80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16693.60624.632357.732237@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20040901220303.GA21583@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <41365786.2010306@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:37:52AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>Any reasonable xterm-like tool in the Xwindows world has VT100 >>support. > > > Close, certainly, but not necessarily close enough... I was using a Gnome > xterm window (RedHat 9) as my "terminal" to klh10 running TOPS-20. For > most stuff, things were fine. Emacs, though, didn't render quite right. > I ended up hooking a dumb terminal up to a serial port and _that_ worked > perfectly. "gnome-terminal" is NOT an xterm. It is an extremely dumbed-down terminal emulator written and maintained by developers who can't imagine and never even considered that you might want to use it to connect to a remote system, let alone a non-Linux remote system. "That's what VNC is for." <-- verbatim quote from a "developer" on the gnome-terminal maintainers' list. Doc From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Sep 1 19:14:28 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: Message-ID: <413665E4.2040702@tiac.net> Smooth plastic on early prototypes indicates 'soft mould' plastic, essentially an early prototype process for plastic parts, prior to committing to an expensive mould that is very difficult to alter for last-minute changes. Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 14:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>>Hi, >>> Does anyone happen to know of a trick to remove (or lessen the effect of) >>>the yellowing that tends to happen to lighter-coloured plastics? >>> >>Copious amounts of Jif (or whatever the hell it's called this week) has >>worked well for me in the past. Some sort of scouring sponge (rather >>than a simple cloth) is probably best as case plastics tend to be >>somewhat uneven. >> > >Be careful, because what you'll actually be doing is removing the texture >of the plastic, which may well make it look as ugly or uglier than before. > >Most plastic computer enclosures have some sort of texture. I guess it's >an asthetic thing, since most prototypes I've got have smooth plastic >enclosures. > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 1 18:41:08 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: DATA I/O Unisite Manual References: Message-ID: <41365E14.49B9132B@msm.umr.edu> > > He proceeded to tell me that to become a certified > repair point for DATA IO , a training and certification could be arranged > ...for a price. I then asked "do you have a list of the service centers in > the US? " His response was" there are none besides the one in Redmond,WA > (Data-IOs main office), the cost to become certified is very expensive". He > is sending me a quote. > > Please send me ...offline... a price for the waveform generator board. one bit of data that needs to be mentioned here, is that when you buy a programmable part and program it with data i/o, and it fails, you can usually return it as a defective part for credit, and blame the part, not the programmer. This don't matter much for 2732's anymore, or a random $5 part, but it gets bad when the parts cost $300ea, and you buy 20 and try to return 15 for credit as defective, because your Acme Super Blow could not possibly be the problem. That concept aside, Data I/O is the 500 # gorilla and milking their position for all it's worth. Unfortunately that means they ignore the small guys with older versions of their otherwise excellent problems that don't really need new 2004 model replacements for thousands of $$ Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 1 19:42:56 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: xenix In-Reply-To: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040901174209.E74876@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ephraim Schoenfeld wrote: > Hi > I am trying to locate XENIX install disks > would you know where to look ? > I am helping a friend get a cnc machine up > something made by cybermation > Any help would greatly appreciated Which processor? What disk format? There are MANY variants of Xenix. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 1 19:42:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040901204219.0093fac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have an 11/23+ that I can take a picture of but it won't be right away. We have a major hurricane heading directly here and it should arrive Saturday so I'm BUSY getting prepared. FWIW the 11/23 was outside during the last hurricane and didn't blow away. I hope it won't blow away in this one! Joe At 10:52 PM 9/1/04 +0800, you wrote: >Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC and > PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) > >Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their >11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I >need to match the paint for the logo restoration. > >Contact me offlist if you wish: >squidster3128 _at_ yahoo _dot_ com > >/wai-sun > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 1 19:53:00 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've been threatening to buy a 3rd party terminal emulator for Mac OS > X, but I simply can't find one that works they way I want. Most > don't handle the double-height fonts correctly, Making double-width and double-height work was one of the things I put some trouble into when writing mterm. Its decansi mode is a pretty good VT-100 emulator for output, and in many respects for input too. See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ - the mterm.README file is a bit out of date, but you may find it of some use, and mterm.doc should be correct. Suggestions for improvements welcomed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 20:54:44 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> Message-ID: <41367D64.2020906@mdrconsult.com> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC and > PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) I don't think it's been defamed (or defaced). The 11/03-L front panel is embossed, but not colored. http://www.docsbox.net/11-03/ Warning - These were taken in less-than-good light, and are fairly large files - about 250KB each. The third one - pdp1103l-3.jpg is the best shot. http://www.docsbox.net/11-03/tn/pdp1103l-3.jpg.html Doc From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 1 21:11:50 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? Message-ID: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Fellow computer tinkerers, I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed Kelleher, apparently the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear to sell overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server logs, entries which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, only to have it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently blocking traffic from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's utter lack of response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse coming from their network). I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, and asking him to please re-send the message to my backup address, which is not spam-filtered in any way that I know of. It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would actually call it rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he was sending five times, with and without attachments, and had finally given up. In his words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, as a self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to protect my network effectively against outside abuse. That point aside, I sent back another polite request, saying that I'm sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for doing what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was trying to send. No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. Based on what I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he had to send may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his company? The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send their original message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of why their initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this fellow that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 1 21:47:41 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <41350D89.AD40399F@compsys.to> <16693.6112.537000.198626@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <415B6FB2.D996832F@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: > Jerome> Jerome H Fine writes: > Jerome> I realize that you are probably not running Windows 98 SE, > Jerome> but I have a Pentium III running Windows 98 SE (because I use > Jerome> E11 to run PDP-11 programs and this is the ONLY operating > Jerome> system which works) > I've said this before.... Linux seems to work just fine for me, > including hairy stuff like networking. Jerome Fine replies: I accept that Linux versions of E11 work very well, but I require one very special feature of the VT100 emulation: 132 character text lines under KED within RT-11 Does E11 under Linux allow this? I have tried a number of other Windows operating systems, but with the same hardware, only Windows 98 SE seems to work. I understand that Windows 95 works as well, but I did not have the correct AGP board at the time. One other aspect of the VT100 emulation is that when I use a standard PC keyboard with the 6 keys above the arrow keys, I am able to convert them to operate like the 6 EDIT keys on a VT220 keyboard (LK201). This allows me to use many of the features of the VT220 / LK201 keyboard. In addition, I have mapped the F1 - F12 PC keys into F6 - F20 for the LK201 keyboard (F14 was not possible). As a result, when I use the SL: (Single Line Editor) under RT-11, I have many extra features not available on a VT100. I also tested these features with a real DEC VT220 and the results were very satisfying. I would appreciate any help in using Linux with E11 for these 2 aspects I have just mentioned. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 1 21:34:52 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> References: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200409011934.52921.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've done business with Ed on a number of occasions and found him to be easy to deal with, honest and resonable. I've never had a situation with Ed where I couldn't reach him or vice-versa. I'm a big fan of SpamAssassin - which both protects my firm from SPAM as well as giving me a great deal of flexibility regarding SPAM control. I've not found it wise to blacklist an entire domain - I prefer much finer controls. BTW, with tweaking, I get less than 0.5% of SPAM per day - with no false positives. Lyle On Wednesday 01 September 2004 19:11, Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow computer tinkerers, > > I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed Kelleher, apparently > the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear to sell > overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. > > What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server logs, entries > which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, only to have > it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently blocking traffic > from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's utter lack of > response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse coming from their > network). > > I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, and asking him to > please re-send the message to my backup address, which is not spam-filtered > in any way that I know of. > > It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would actually call it > rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he was sending > five times, with and without attachments, and had finally given up. In his > words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." > > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, as a > self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to protect my > network effectively against outside abuse. > > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, saying that I'm > sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for doing > what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also > asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was > trying to send. > > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. Based on what > I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he had to send > may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his company? > > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send their original > message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of why their > initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this fellow > that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially > considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? > > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 21:37:06 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: CD Shredder Message-ID: Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really tempted to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I thought others here might be interested in as well. http://www.primera.com/ds360_disc_shredder.html Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 1 22:00:34 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <415B72BB.FE7A486E@compsys.to> >Doc Shipley wrote: > I dunno about other OS disks. The little I know about RT-11's > filesystem implies that most any old disk should work. Jerome Fine replies: Normally, I find it a bit inconvenient to use a hard disk to copy stuff back and forth from RT-11 running under E11 on a Pentium and a real DEC PDP-11. If someone is trying to do this and is having problems, I will suggest how I solved the problem. For myself, while I have used a hard SCSI disk drive to be sure it is possible, I find the use of magneto optical media a bit more convenient. Since the media is removable, the PC does not complain when I boot that the media is not in the drive. Then under E11, I am able to: MOUNT DU0: SCSI0: Of course, on a real DEC PDP-11, I must use a SCSI host adapter. I have a CQD 220/TM which does the job along with an Adaptec AHA2940-AU on the PC. A Sony SMO S-501 drive on each system completes the needed hardware to allow me to transfer 300 MBytes back an forth. I also use the MO media as a backup for the 600 MByte ESDI hard drives (Hitachi DK515-78) on the real DEC PDP-11. Since each ESDI hard drive has 20 RT-11 partitions, I use both sides of each MO media PLUS 4 RT-11 partitions from another media. It required very careful co-ordination, but is MUCH better than a tape since any small changes can be made on the MO media to keep the backup up to date. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 1 21:39:09 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: Message-ID: <413687CD.9020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really > tempted to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I > thought others here might be interested in as well. Microwaving CD's is cheaper and more fun to watch. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 1 22:05:35 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > Zane> My idea is actually to first dd the HD to a disk image, then > Zane> prep that disk image under SIMH or E11. Copy the data I want > Zane> on the HD to the image using the emulator, and then dd it back > Zane> to the HD. Logically it should work just fine. With RT-11, > Zane> you shouldn't even need to dd the HD to a disk image, just > Zane> create whatever size disk image and dd it out there. The other > Zane> OS's would be a bit more picky. > Not necessarily. If you tell the simulator that it has an MSCP disk, > the OS should just accept whatever size it is, because the rule of > MSCP is that the disk tells the OS its size and the OS makes no > assumptions. Certainly RSTS does this correctly. > > As for "geometry" -- MSCP doesn't have any that the OS can see, or at > best it has just some vague hints that actually serve no real > purpose. That certainly fits with modern drives -- anything built in > the last 10 years or so has a software geometry that has no connection > to reality, and a real geometry that's (a) not visible, (b) much more > complex than tracks and cylinders of fixed size. Look at IDE disks, > for example; they all claim to have 15 heads and 63 sectors, or > whatever is the max in the old IDE conventions. But those numbers > have nothing to do with reality, they exist only for backward > compatibility. Jerome Fine replies: HELP!! Something seems to be missing. Is SIMH being used with SCSI hard disk drives are are the SCSI hard disk drives first being copied to a hard disk file AFTER which SIMH does: ATTACH RQ0: hard_disk_file.DSK I don't know of any command that allows SIMH to ATTACH a raw SCSI hard drive like E11 allows. What am I missing in this discussion? PLEASE!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 1 21:49:37 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? Message-ID: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Bruce Lane wrote: > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, > as a self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to > protect my network effectively against outside abuse. I have always advocated for a law that bans both spam and spamblocking, and imposes penalties for spamblockers 10 times as stiff as those for spammers. 1 year in prison for spam, 10 years in prison for spamblocking. Or 10 years in prison for spam, execution by guillotine on live TV for spamblocking. MS, who is also a completely self-host sysadmin, publishes his E-mail address far and wide, and uses absolutely no filtering of any kind. Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud open ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down by harassment from criminal paramilitary death squad organisations like MAPS and ORBS. From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Sep 1 22:03:12 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1094094192.15307.60.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 22:48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > HELP!! Something seems to be missing. Is SIMH being used > with SCSI hard disk drives are are the SCSI hard disk drives > first being copied to a hard disk file AFTER which SIMH does: > ATTACH RQ0: hard_disk_file.DSK > I don't know of any command that allows SIMH to ATTACH > a raw SCSI hard drive like E11 allows. What am I missing > in this discussion? PLEASE! Wouldn't something like: attach rq0 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s2 (Or for Linux) attach rq0 /dev/sda for SIMH work? (It'll require root, or a chown of the device) And, as I've never tried this.. YMMV.. David > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 22:04:42 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> References: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <41368DCA.7060509@mdrconsult.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow computer tinkerers, > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, as a self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to protect my network effectively against outside abuse. > > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, saying that I'm sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for doing what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was trying to send. > > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. Based on what I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he had to send may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his company? > > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send their original message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of why their initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this fellow that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? > > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. O-kay.... You're blacklisting an entire legitimate domain, and you're upset that a correspondent from that domain won't send you information for the sixth time? As a system administrator managing several commercial mail servers, I do have a clear concept of your pain, and I call bullshit. There are better ways to control spam. I'll grant that it's entirely your right to filter anybody, any way you want, but when you take it to the extreme there are consequences. As the mail admin, it's *my* responsibility to my users and correspondents to manage spam, relays, and all the other booogeymen that go with mail traffic. They should not have to jump through hoops to send a valid email into, or out of, my domain. There's no reason at all that a correspondent should have to make extraordinary effort to allow for your laziness. I also fail to see ANY justification for your post to CC. This issue is private, it started in private, and it should have stayed private. Doc From wacarder at usit.net Wed Sep 1 22:14:08 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <200409011934.52921.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: I too have dealt with Ed and found him to be extremely nice and easy to deal with. His office is near where I live and work and I've been by there to do some old DEC equipment dealing with him. I have been very satisfied with our transactions and he went out of his way to give me a few extra items each time I visited him. Perhaps there is some misunderstanding with the email situation. I do understand the spam issues, as I ran my own mail server for several years, but ultimately decided to let the ISP do it because it became a maintenance issue and I was too busy. As for Ed's systems that he is selling online, there seems to be a market for what he is building and testing, and he has to earn a living, so more power to him if he can get what he's asking for those DEC systems. It has to do with the rules of supply and demand. I have been known to pay a higher price for an old system if it is built and pre-tested by another person who is more experienced than I am. Alternatively, if I'm going to attempt to test or assemble an old system myself, I will pay less for the componentsor system. In the first example, I am willing to pay a premium for the other person's time and expertise. Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? > > > I've done business with Ed on a number of occasions and found him > to be easy > to deal with, honest and resonable. I've never had a situation > with Ed where > I couldn't reach him or vice-versa. > > I'm a big fan of SpamAssassin - which both protects my firm from > SPAM as well > as giving me a great deal of flexibility regarding SPAM control. > I've not > found it wise to blacklist an entire domain - I prefer much finer > controls. > > BTW, with tweaking, I get less than 0.5% of SPAM per day - with no false > positives. > > Lyle > > On Wednesday 01 September 2004 19:11, Bruce Lane wrote: > > Fellow computer tinkerers, > > > > I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed > Kelleher, apparently > > the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear to sell > > overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. > > > > What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server > logs, entries > > which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, > only to have > > it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently > blocking traffic > > from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's utter lack of > > response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse coming from their > > network). > > > > I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, > and asking him to > > please re-send the message to my backup address, which is not > spam-filtered > > in any way that I know of. > > > > It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would > actually call it > > rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he > was sending > > five times, with and without attachments, and had finally given > up. In his > > words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." > > > > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept > of what I, as a > > self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to > protect my > > network effectively against outside abuse. > > > > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, > saying that I'm > > sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for doing > > what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also > > asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was > > trying to send. > > > > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. > Based on what > > I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he > had to send > > may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). > > > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or > his company? > > > > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send > their original > > message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of > why their > > initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this fellow > > that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially > > considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? > > > > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > > surreal ports?" > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Sep 1 22:06:16 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: SIMH & root Message-ID: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Speaking of SIMH.. SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most of its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with it... So I've hacked up some code changes that'll let me change the UID/GID & chroot() SIMH is running on from the SIMH console. The idea is.. attach (network devs) attach (other root owned devs) set priv root=/some/chroot/jail gid=-1 uid=-1 (continue configuring) Anyways, my question is, does anyone else think this would even vaguely be useful? If so, I'll mail the patches into Bob Supnik, if not, I'll not waste my (or anyone elses) time. I figure there out to be at least one or two other SIMH users on this list. :) The "why" of it all.. I may have need of putting up a internet facing VAX/VMS "box" in the near future, and not wanting the heat & power issues of real hardware (yes, its hot in my "computer closet" :-( ) I thought a virtual VAX on my Linux firewall would do. I'm less concerned about the 'VAX' being hacked than I am about the firewall. (Yes, I know theoretically, its impossible for the SIMH environment to affect the firewall host OS directly, save possibly via networking, but I'm also paranoid. :-> ) /me slinks back under his rock, and awaits the snickering.. David From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Sep 1 22:12:24 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas@caltech.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: SIMH & root Message-ID: <8392952466dundas@caltech.edu> > Anyways, my question is, does anyone else think this would even vaguely > be useful? > > If so, I'll mail the patches into Bob Supnik, if not, I'll not waste my > (or anyone elses) time. I figure there out to be at least one or two > other SIMH users on this list. :) Yes, please send it in. John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 1 22:14:49 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040902031449.GA10716@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 29, 2004 at 10:48:11PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > HELP!! Something seems to be missing. Is SIMH being used > with SCSI hard disk drives are are the SCSI hard disk drives > first being copied to a hard disk file AFTER which SIMH does: > ATTACH RQ0: hard_disk_file.DSK > I don't know of any command that allows SIMH to ATTACH > a raw SCSI hard drive like E11 allows. What am I missing > in this discussion? PLEASE!!! I have no idea how to do this with any version of Windows, but UNIX/Linux/etc. have always given you access to the raw disk. In my case, the relevant command would resemble something like... ATTACH RQ0: /dev/sda (where 'sd' is the driver, and 'a' is the controller). This works with any and all emulators since to UNIX, unlike Windows, everything is a file. "Devices" are not special entities to open()/close() calls, etc. I ran into this sort of problem in reverse when I was playing with various VMS emulators under Windows - there was no way to stick a physical VMS distro CD into the CD-ROM drive and have the emulator access it - when I sought help, the only answer I got was to use Linux :-) or to extract an image file of the CD and stick that on the Windows box and 'mount' that. If anyone has any solutions to this difference in operation between the two environments, I'd love to hear it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Sep-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.8 F (-46.0 C) Windchill -87.59 F (-66.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.3 kts Grid 015 Barometer 680.4 mb (10611. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 1 22:21:13 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <249A626A-FC8F-11D8-9640-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> n Sep 1, 2004, at 7:49 PM, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > I have always advocated for a law that bans both spam and spamblocking, > and imposes penalties for spamblockers 10 times as stiff as those for > spammers. Why are you against spamblocking? If I understand correctly, you wish that I not have a choice to ignore and not read mail that I am not interested in? From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Sep 1 22:37:28 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really tempted > to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I thought others > here might be interested in as well. Ya know - $130 bux out the door for a do-hickey that sort of embosses the surfaces of a CD - so you can what... store it in the "FUBAR CD" drawer? Run it thru that machine and then shitcan it? I was going to make the same point that Ben made: scarf up on a garage-sale microvave for about .001 of the cost of the ShredderGoody(tm) and then have a great deal of fun pretending that they're the dying Enterprise, disintegrating in colorful flames as it makes it's last re-entry... Now that's a truly nerdy way to 'format' a CDR... Cheers Rathuv Conn From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 1 22:30:45 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <20040902031449.GA10716@bos7.spole.gov> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> <20040902031449.GA10716@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200409020342.XAA18558@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In my case, the relevant command would resemble something like... > ATTACH RQ0: /dev/sda > (where 'sd' is the driver, and 'a' is the controller). > This works with any and all emulators since to UNIX, unlike Windows, > everything is a file. "Devices" are not special entities to > open()/close() calls, etc. Well, devices _are_ often special in various ways. Most notably here, disk devices normally do not support accesses that are not a multiple of the sector size, aligned on sector boundaries. (Since most emulators don't try to do anything else with disks, they probably will work fine. This is partly just general misimpression correcting, but also partly because you may run into trouble if you try to use something like a CD - the CD blocksize is fundamentally 2352, which turns into 2K for a data CD (the other 304 bytes going for ECC and suchlike), and many CD drives don't support sub-2K accesses, meaning you may not be able to use a CD to back even a read-only disk.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 22:45:14 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <4136974A.2090104@mdrconsult.com> David Holland wrote: > Speaking of SIMH.. > > SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most of > its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with it... > > So I've hacked up some code changes that'll let me change the UID/GID & > chroot() SIMH is running on from the SIMH console. I run the Debian packaged version of SIMH, and it runs as a user. Looking at their configuration might keep you from having to invent some wheels. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 1 22:53:10 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: Message-ID: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:37 PM Subject: Re: CD Shredder > > > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really tempted > > to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I thought others > > here might be interested in as well. > > > Ya know - $130 bux out the door for a do-hickey that sort of embosses the > surfaces of a CD - so you can what... store it in the "FUBAR CD" drawer? > Run it thru that machine and then shitcan it? > > I was going to make the same point that Ben made: scarf up on a > garage-sale microvave for about .001 of the cost of the ShredderGoody(tm) > and then have a great deal of fun pretending that they're the dying > Enterprise, disintegrating in colorful flames as it makes it's last > re-entry... > > Now that's a truly nerdy way to 'format' a CDR... > > > Cheers > > Rathuv Conn > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? Or if your a "girly man" (just a joke) just scratch the data layer. Unless you are doing top secret government work for a foreign nation nobody is going to even try piecing the thing back together with high tech gear. $130 is just a bit pricey for a cd shredder in my opinion. Oh, and for those who like to nuke things that should not get nuked, does your food taste a bit strange after you blast metal ions and pieces of carcinogenic polymer around in your food warming machine? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:00:24 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:49 2005 Subject: mterm (was: Re: VT100 under SIMH) In-Reply-To: <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > > I've been threatening to buy a 3rd party terminal emulator for Mac OS >> X, but I simply can't find one that works they way I want. Most >> don't handle the double-height fonts correctly, > >Making double-width and double-height work was one of the things I put >some trouble into when writing mterm. Its decansi mode is a pretty >good VT-100 emulator for output, and in many respects for input too. > >See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ - the mterm.README >file is a bit out of date, but you may find it of some use, and >mterm.doc should be correct. > >Suggestions for improvements welcomed. Has anyone been able to build this for Mac OS X? The various little testing tools run under Terminal.app quite nicely. However, after I *finally* managed to build mterm, they just generate escape sequences. It sounds most interesting though, I think I'm going to have to find time to try this out on another Unix box. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 1 23:00:29 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> MS wrote... > who is also a completely self-host sysadmin, publishes his E-mail > address far and wide, and uses absolutely no filtering of any kind. What is this term "self-host sysadmin"? > Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud open > ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down by harassment > from criminal paramilitary death squad organisations like MAPS and ORBS. Anyone who runs an open relay mail service is quite frankly the very definition of harassment and criminal. There is never, ever, under any circumstance whatsoever, a reason to have an open relay. For any situation that you can propose as to why an open relay is needed, I can show you an example of clear lack of understanding in how to configure the system. Sorry, raw nerve. Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 1 22:55:19 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <413699A7.3020106@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? Or > if your a "girly man" (just a joke) just scratch the data layer. Unless you > are doing top secret government work for a foreign nation nobody is going to > even try piecing the thing back together with high tech gear. $130 is just a > bit pricey for a cd shredder in my opinion. Oh, and for those who like to > nuke things that should not get nuked, does your food taste a bit strange > after you blast metal ions and pieces of carcinogenic polymer around in your > food warming machine? Well that can't be any worse than my cooking on the top of the stove. :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:04:13 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? Or That's what I do now, but the shredder seems cleaner. OK, I confess, I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) Though it would be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 1 23:04:12 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: mterm (was: Re: VT100 under SIMH) In-Reply-To: References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200409020405.AAA28811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...mterm...] > Has anyone been able to build this for Mac OS X? The various little > testing tools run under Terminal.app quite nicely. However, after I > *finally* managed to build mterm, they just generate escape > sequences. Did you remember to start it with "-termtype decansi"? The default emulation is "mterm", which does not do anything even vaguely X3.64ish for its control sequences. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:06:53 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: >Speaking of SIMH.. > >SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most of >its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with it... I'm not happy with this either. The same problem exists with KLH10. The best solution I've seen is a special "hardened" Linux distro on CD that you boot from to run the emulator. I've not gotten that motivated. In any case, yes, send Bob the patches! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 1 23:02:40 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? Or > if your a "girly man" (just a joke) just scratch the data layer. Unless you > are doing top secret government work for a foreign nation nobody is going to > even try piecing the thing back together with high tech gear. $130 is just a > bit pricey for a cd shredder in my opinion. Oh, and for those who like to > nuke things that should not get nuked, does your food taste a bit strange > after you blast metal ions and pieces of carcinogenic polymer around in your > food warming machine? How about the toaster or deep fryer instead? Wow 'waffle' CD coasters fresh from the waffle maker. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:10:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: <4136974A.2090104@mdrconsult.com> References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <4136974A.2090104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >David Holland wrote: > >>Speaking of SIMH.. >> >>SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most of >>its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with it... >> >>So I've hacked up some code changes that'll let me change the UID/GID & >>chroot() SIMH is running on from the SIMH console. > > I run the Debian packaged version of SIMH, and it runs as a user. >Looking at their configuration might keep you from having to invent >some wheels. > > Doc But, do you use the networking portion of SIMH? You can run SIMH or KLH10 as a user, IF, you don't try to use Ethernet. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 1 23:10:07 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200409020411.AAA28861@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) Though it would > be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. Pretty much any bog-standard electric handsaw should be plenty capable of dealing with that. At msot you'd need to place the cd between two pieces of wood for stiffness. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:11:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >How about the toaster or deep fryer instead? >Wow 'waffle' CD coasters fresh from the waffle maker. Deep fat fried CD's.... Now that might actually be interesting to see :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 1 23:13:53 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Old games for sale, cheap Message-ID: My brother gave me a box of his old DOS games, and told me to get rid of them however I saw fit. CCTALK, here they come! Anyway, I have 20-ish pound box full of early 1990s DOS games (maybe some Windows, too) for the PeeCee. Let's see, we have Ultima 4, Pirates, various AD&D games, Roger Wilco, Gunship 2000, Tornado, Wooden Ships& Iron Men, and probably a few I missed. Knowing my brother, everything original to the games is there (yes, these are real, store-bought, non-pirated originals). One money gets the whole pile - I don't want to sell individual games. Cheap. Make a stupid offer over shipping. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 1 23:18:48 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006701c490a3$f1f2b2a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Deep fat fried CD's.... Now that might actually be interesting to see :^) Especially if the CD reacted to the hot oil like chinese cellophane noodles, puffing up 10 times their size and going from clear to non-opaque white. Hummm Neat visual :) Actually... I like the waffle iron idea. If you could get a cd into a waffle iron pattern, with melted sunk depressions in a regular pattern.... I am thinking you'd have a great saleable product as a coaster. The next Pet rock... a CD like a waffle for a coaster. What geek wouldn't want one? :-) Jay {running off to set up his ebay merchant account for CDwaffleCoasters(tm) } From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 1 23:19:37 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <00eb01c490a4$0f90ca40$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:04 AM Subject: Re: CD Shredder > >What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? Or > > That's what I do now, but the shredder seems cleaner. OK, I confess, > I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) Though it would > be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. > > Zane > > A shredder capable of shredding cd's probably makes a decent amount of noise. If you do get one make sure your kids don't try and help "clean up" your messy desk by running your Led Zeppelin cds into the shredder along with your Windows install cds. From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 1 23:21:34 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <004601c490a4$55a0bbd0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Don't let it bring you down! heck there are people that I email and they do not even reply. But remember, that is just a calibration of their personality. The odd thing is if they ever needed help I would still try to help them. hope all ends well! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Lane" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 7:11 PM Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? > Fellow computer tinkerers, > > I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed Kelleher, apparently > the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear to sell > overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. > > What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server logs, entries > which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, only to > have it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently blocking > traffic from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's utter lack > of response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse coming from > their network). > > I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, and asking him to > please re-send the message to my backup address, which is not > spam-filtered in any way that I know of. > > It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would actually call it > rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he was > sending five times, with and without attachments, and had finally given > up. In his words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." > > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, as a > self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to protect my > network effectively against outside abuse. > > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, saying that I'm > sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for doing > what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also > asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was > trying to send. > > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. Based on what > I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he had to > send may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his company? > > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send their original > message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of why their > initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this fellow > that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially > considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? > > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 1 23:22:50 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <005301c490a4$82d7e600$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> on TV? this could be stranger than WWF! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? > Bruce Lane wrote: > >> This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, >> as a self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to >> protect my network effectively against outside abuse. > > I have always advocated for a law that bans both spam and spamblocking, > and imposes penalties for spamblockers 10 times as stiff as those for > spammers. 1 year in prison for spam, 10 years in prison for spamblocking. > Or 10 years in prison for spam, execution by guillotine on live TV for > spamblocking. > > MS, > > who is also a completely self-host sysadmin, publishes his E-mail > address far and wide, and uses absolutely no filtering of any kind. > > Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud open > ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down by harassment > from criminal paramilitary death squad organisations like MAPS and ORBS. > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 1 23:24:22 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: Message-ID: <005a01c490a4$b9c358c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> call him up and discuss it ... let him yell for a while and then still offer an olive branch... this sometimes works... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? >I too have dealt with Ed and found him to be extremely nice > and easy to deal with. His office is near where I live and > work and I've been by there to do some old DEC equipment dealing > with him. I have been very satisfied with our transactions and > he went out of his way to give me a few extra items each time I > visited him. Perhaps there is some misunderstanding with the > email situation. > > I do understand the spam issues, as I ran my own mail server > for several years, but ultimately decided to let the ISP do > it because it became a maintenance issue and I was too busy. > > As for Ed's systems that he is selling online, there seems to be > a market for what he is building and testing, and he has to earn > a living, so more power to him if he can get what he's asking > for those DEC systems. It has to do with the rules of supply > and demand. I have been known to pay a higher price for an > old system if it is built and pre-tested by another person who > is more experienced than I am. Alternatively, if I'm going to > attempt to test or assemble an old system myself, I will pay > less for the componentsor system. In the first example, I am > willing to pay a premium for the other person's time and expertise. > > Ashley > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley >> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:35 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? >> >> >> I've done business with Ed on a number of occasions and found him >> to be easy >> to deal with, honest and resonable. I've never had a situation >> with Ed where >> I couldn't reach him or vice-versa. >> >> I'm a big fan of SpamAssassin - which both protects my firm from >> SPAM as well >> as giving me a great deal of flexibility regarding SPAM control. >> I've not >> found it wise to blacklist an entire domain - I prefer much finer >> controls. >> >> BTW, with tweaking, I get less than 0.5% of SPAM per day - with no false >> positives. >> >> Lyle >> >> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 19:11, Bruce Lane wrote: >> > Fellow computer tinkerers, >> > >> > I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed >> Kelleher, apparently >> > the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear to sell >> > overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. >> > >> > What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server >> logs, entries >> > which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, >> only to have >> > it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently >> blocking traffic >> > from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's utter lack of >> > response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse coming from >> > their >> > network). >> > >> > I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, >> and asking him to >> > please re-send the message to my backup address, which is not >> spam-filtered >> > in any way that I know of. >> > >> > It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would >> actually call it >> > rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he >> was sending >> > five times, with and without attachments, and had finally given >> up. In his >> > words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." >> > >> > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept >> of what I, as a >> > self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to >> protect my >> > network effectively against outside abuse. >> > >> > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, >> saying that I'm >> > sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for >> > doing >> > what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I also >> > asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he was >> > trying to send. >> > >> > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see one. >> Based on what >> > I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect that what he >> had to send >> > may have been of minimal value in any case (possibly even spam). >> > >> > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or >> his company? >> > >> > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send >> their original >> > message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of >> why their >> > initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into this >> > fellow >> > that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, especially >> > considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer goodies? >> > >> > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. >> > >> > >> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >> > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >> > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >> > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped >> > with >> > surreal ports?" >> >> -- >> Lyle Bickley >> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >> http://bickleywest.com >> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> >> > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 1 23:30:34 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <4136974A.2090104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4136A1EA.80004@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> David Holland wrote: >> >>> Speaking of SIMH.. >>> >>> SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most of >>> its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with it... >>> >>> So I've hacked up some code changes that'll let me change the UID/GID & >>> chroot() SIMH is running on from the SIMH console. >> >> >> I run the Debian packaged version of SIMH, and it runs as a user. >> Looking at their configuration might keep you from having to invent >> some wheels. >> >> Doc > > > But, do you use the networking portion of SIMH? You can run SIMH or > KLH10 as a user, IF, you don't try to use Ethernet. Haven't tried. I'll do that in the next day or two. Everything I've done worked fine by 'serial' transfer. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:34:27 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: mterm (was: Re: VT100 under SIMH) In-Reply-To: <200409020405.AAA28811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200409020405.AAA28811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >Did you remember to start it with "-termtype decansi"? The default >emulation is "mterm", which does not do anything even vaguely X3.64ish >for its control sequences. I guess I should read the instructions shouldn't I :^) Oh, my gosh! This is pretty much the closest I've seen to what I'm looking for in a terminal emulator. A couple questions after looking through the doc file, is there a way to make the font larger (easier on the eyes), or get a scroll bar? The only problem I see right now is that the delete key's on the Mac keyboard aren't mapped right. I'll have to see if I can figure out how to fix that. If I can get that fixed, I'm definitely going to be using this at least part of the time! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 1 23:52:31 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 1, 4 09:04:13 pm" Message-ID: <200409020452.VAA14060@floodgap.com> > > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? > > That's what I do now, but the shredder seems cleaner. OK, I confess, > I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) Though it would > be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. The Fellowes shredder I have here ($180) can easily destroy CDs into little bitty sharp metal-plastic confetti. It's therapeutic to toss AOL discs into it and listen to it crush the disc into fragments. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- His mind is like a steel trap -- full of mice. -- Foghorn Leghorn ---------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 1 23:58:26 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Sep 1, 4 11:00:29 pm" Message-ID: <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> > > Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud open > > ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down by harassment > > from criminal paramilitary death squad organisations like MAPS and ORBS. > > Anyone who runs an open relay mail service is quite frankly the very > definition of harassment and criminal. Seconded. No excuse for it in this day and age with just about everyone having access to locally supported mail hosts they can use for outgoing mail. Open relays serve no purpose except to be abused. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "My inner geek can beat up your inner geek." ------------------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 1 23:44:45 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <200409020452.VAA14060@floodgap.com> References: <200409020452.VAA14060@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200409012344.45128.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 23:52, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the > > > trash? > > > > That's what I do now, but the shredder seems cleaner. OK, I > > confess, I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) > > Though it would be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. > > The Fellowes shredder I have here ($180) can easily destroy CDs into > little bitty sharp metal-plastic confetti. It's therapeutic to toss > AOL discs into it and listen to it crush the disc into fragments. ^^ As well, the Cost-$50-when-new shredder I've got at work (rescued from the trash) can very effectively irreversably damage CDs, if not break them apart. I have even sent plastic (did some damage to) and ceramic (just came out the bottom) package surplus ICs through it, and it still shreds paper. If your local office supply store has "demo" models, just bring some AOL CDs, or use the free ones they probably have at the checkout counter, to evaluate models before you buy one. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 1 23:58:19 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <009401c490a9$772ae870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Seconded. No excuse for it in this day and age with just about everyone > having access to locally supported mail hosts they can use for outgoing > mail. Open relays serve no purpose except to be abused. Every single time I've heard a sendmail newbie (or any mail admin wannabe) saying "oh, but, an open relay is the only way to solve THIS particular problem".... it's turned out that the admin was totally unaware of the facilities built into the software (or the engineering of the entire mail infrastructure) that handle doing exactly what was desired, without opening up relaying. An open relay is a clear indicator of one of two things: ignorance, or malicious intent. Jay From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Sep 1 00:57:21 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <1094094192.15307.60.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> <1094094192.15307.60.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <413564C1.6090209@theriver.com> David Holland wrote: > > > Wouldn't something like: > > attach rq0 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s2 > > (Or for Linux) > > attach rq0 /dev/sda > > for SIMH work? (It'll require root, or a chown of the device) And, as > I've never tried this.. YMMV.. > > David > So, if I ran SIMH under freebsd attach rq0 /dev/fd0.rx50 and I could attach my physical "emulated rx50" to simh?? (freebsd has a fd0.rx50 floppy device that I have yet to try) Cheers Tom > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 2 00:10:44 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200409020010.44159.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 23:06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Speaking of SIMH.. > > > >SIMH requires root privileges to do its networking (at least on most > > of its unix host OS's), understandably, but I'm not happy with > > it... > > I'm not happy with this either. The same problem exists with KLH10. > The best solution I've seen is a special "hardened" Linux distro on > CD that you boot from to run the emulator. I've not gotten that > motivated. Under the 2.6 linux kernel, you should be able to use capabilities to effect the same result, without opening up the entire "running a process as root" bag of worms. Just don't ask me how, as I've never used them yet, I just know that they are (should be) there. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 2 00:12:58 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <200409020342.XAA18558@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040902031449.GA10716@bos7.spole.gov> <200409020342.XAA18558@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200409020012.58131.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 01 September 2004 22:30, der Mouse wrote: > Well, devices _are_ often special in various ways. Most notably > here, disk devices normally do not support accesses that are not a > multiple of the sector size, aligned on sector boundaries. (Since > most emulators don't try to do anything else with disks, they > probably will work fine. This is partly just general misimpression > correcting, but also partly because you may run into trouble if you > try to use something like a CD - the CD blocksize is fundamentally > 2352, which turns into 2K for a data CD (the other 304 bytes going > for ECC and suchlike), and many CD drives don't support sub-2K > accesses, meaning you may not be able to use a CD to back even a > read-only disk.) A proper OS device driver will figure out that you're not reading/writing a whole block (or on a block boundary), and give you back or modify only what's required, when using a read()/write() syscall or fread()/fwrite(). :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 2 00:18:53 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: mterm (was: Re: VT100 under SIMH) In-Reply-To: References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200409020405.AAA28811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200409020534.BAA29353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Did you remember to start it with "-termtype decansi"? [...] > I guess I should read the instructions shouldn't I :^) "When all else fails, read the instructions." :-) > Oh, my gosh! This is pretty much the closest I've seen to what I'm > looking for in a terminal emulator. A couple questions after looking > through the doc file, is there a way to make the font larger (easier > on the eyes), or get a scroll bar? Font larger - yes, provided your X setup has such a font (probably so). I'd suggest a bit of playing around with xlsfonts and xfd to find one you like. (Note that non-monospaced fonts will look ugly, and non-charcell fonts will tend to leave turds on the screen.) Then use -fn or related options/resources. (If you want to switch fonts at run time, you can either use the add-display DCS sequence or the mtadd program to throw up a new window (and then have your window manager ask the old one to go away), or you can use the set-font DCS sequence.) Scrollbar - this is a SMOP, in sense 2 of the Jaron File entry. You're far from the first to suggest such a thing, but the internal data structures are not such as to lend themselves well to adding it; it would more or less require rewriting a nontrivial fraction of the code. (It might be possible to kludge such a thing in; provided the window plus scrollback doesn't go over 32K (or maybe 64K) pixels high, it might not even be very hard. But it would be an ugly kludge.) > The only problem I see right now is that the delete key's on the Mac > keyboard aren't mapped right. I'll have to see if I can figure out > how to fix that. xmodmap may be the tool you want. (May not, too; depends on too many things I can't tell.) > If I can get that fixed, I'm definitely going to be using this at > least part of the time! If it can help you, I'm glad. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Sep 2 01:21:05 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <200409020452.VAA14060@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <00d301c490b5$0aa878f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> breaking cds can be dangerous,,,, when they snap pieces can go flying and into your eyes or a piece of plastic can also cut your arm.... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:52 PM Subject: Re: CD Shredder >> > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the >> > trash? >> >> That's what I do now, but the shredder seems cleaner. OK, I confess, >> I think a shredder that can handle CD's is cool :^) Though it would >> be even cooler if it did it into smaller pieces. > > The Fellowes shredder I have here ($180) can easily destroy CDs into > little > bitty sharp metal-plastic confetti. It's therapeutic to toss AOL discs > into > it and listen to it crush the disc into fragments. ^^ > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * > ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- His mind is like a steel trap -- full of mice. -- Foghorn > Leghorn ---------- > > From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 2 10:36:36 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> Are you all top endians or bottom endians for email replies? I'll go for bottom endian. At 10:11 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote: >Fellow computer tinkerers, > > I had a recent E-mail exchange with a fellow named Ed Kelleher, > apparently the president of a company called 'Macro-Inc.com.' They appear > to sell overpriced (to my eyes, anyway) DEC systems and parts. > > What had happened was that I had found, in my mail server logs, > entries which showed that Mr. Kelleher had tried to send me something, > only to have it bounced repeatedly due to the fact that I'm currently > blocking traffic from the biz.rr.com domain (this last due to RR.Com's > utter lack of response to ongoing spam, port probes, and other abuse > coming from their network). > > I sent him a polite note advising him of what I'd found, and > asking him to please re-send the message to my backup address, which is > not spam-filtered in any way that I know of. > > It worked -- sort of. I got back a very terse -- I would actually > call it rude -- reply to the effect that he'd tried to send whatever he > was sending five times, with and without attachments, and had finally > given up. In his words "I don't care to send it again. Stupid policy of yours." > > This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of > what I, as a self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying > to protect my network effectively against outside abuse. > > That point aside, I sent back another polite request, saying that > I'm sorry he felt that way, and asking that he please not blame me for > doing what I felt necessary to protect my tiny corner of the Internet. I > also asked him if he would consider at least telling me what it was he > was trying to send. > > No response yet, of course. I'm not sure I'll ever see > one. Based on what I saw of his company's web site, though, I suspect > that what he had to send may have been of minimal value in any case > (possibly even spam). > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his > company? > > The vast majority of people that I've asked to re-send their > original message have no problem with it, and are fully understanding of > why their initial attempts might have been blocked. What's gotten into > this fellow that he can't seem to understand the view from my side, > especially considering that he sells (and presumably works with) computer > goodies? > > Insights and opinions welcomed. Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Hi, I'm Ed Kelleher. You might remember me from such smash threads as, "Hey, put a magnet by the CRT and watch the pretty colors!", or ... "Do you really have to use that word?" Thanks Lyle and Ashely for your kind comments. The other day I posted a message to the list saying I had Teledisk images available of software for most Emulex hardware. Several folks emailed me on/off list asking for a copy. Happy to oblige. Including Bruce Lane, author of the above. His off list solicitation is copied below. Despite being an avaricious purveyor of "overpriced" DEC hardware, and defender of eBay, (I published my mea culpa when I first joined this list not too long ago "At 05:37 PM 5/28/2004, you wrote:") I was happy to send copies of what I had as my very small part in promotion of the hobby. I sent Bruce Lane a copy, at his request, and tried to get through to him 5 times in different ways. No joy. I didn't want to appear to be blowing off his request and give up. How do I get through? Searched the cctalk emails to see if he was a participant. Wasn't going to bother if he were just a lurker - take but no give. He wasn't. I found posts of his and an earlier post on cctalk from someone else who had same problem getting through to Bruce Lane. I posted it to cctalk with a brief request that Bruce Lane get in touch with me. I didn't particularly like to do that, but didn't want to appear rude in ignoring the guy's request either. Bruce Lane then sends me an email saying in effect, through his diligent effort he saw where maybe I was wanting to contact him but he blocked entire domains like biz.rr.com. This was after I posted the same to cctalk. >> During a routine review of our E-mail server logs, I came across >> an indication that a message you sent may have been wrongly rejected as spam. >> >> If this was indeed you, please try re-sending your message to my >> backup address of kc7gr@qsl.net -- RoadRunner.com has been heavily >> blocked at our servers because of a very high incidence of spam, port >> probes, and similar network abuse. This includes the biz.rr.com domain. >> >> Thank you for your patience, and I apologize for the hassle. > >Damn right it was a hassle. >Sent it 5 times, with/without attachments. >Stupid policy of yours. > >I don't care to send it again. "Hello, have I reached the party to whom I am speaking?" Sorry, but that hit a nerve. I decided not to accept his apology (and resend the file) because I thought he needed a wakeup call (purely IMO). Two schools of thought I guess on telling people if their fly is open. I'm in the "let them know it" school. Bruce Lane asks me to send stuff, "I run my own servers, so attachments are not a problem", but blocks my domain and doesn't tell me of an alternate address. Trying to do him a favor, at his request, he forgets he invited me, locks the door in my face, ignores my knocks and calls me rude? Since he cared to make his thoughts public, I'm happy to follow suit. "What a wanker!" is what I'm thinking. (Eudora says that's a bad word ... sorry ) [End of personal rant] [begin domain blocking rant] Blocking domains like biz.rr.com to reduce spam is stupid, IMHO. What? Maybe you go from 98% spam to 90%? Pull the plug and you'll not have to worry at all. Just counted and I have 543 rules setup in my Eudora email filters. I am not using any other spam filters, but 99% of incoming spam goes to the trash folder. Of course some good stuff goes in there, but I skim the trash and get most of them before flushing. (Like a request for Maxtor XT2190 disk drive from South Africa that I have to get to here in a bit). Bruce Lane wrote: >This tells me right away that he has absolutely no concept of what I, as a >self-hosted SysAdmin, go through each and every DAY, trying to protect my >network effectively against outside abuse. I'm not sure what a "self-hosted SysAdmin" is but I think I are one too. Maybe I have my eyes closed, but we have box on the table and it just sits there and hums. I pay a little extra to get "business class" from RoadRunner (big US cable access provider). That's the biz.rr.com domain thing ("thing" so all you purists don't jump on me) that gives a fixed IP with a little more bandwidth, router and stuff. There's lots of business class road runner users. Seems nonsensical to block it because of a few spammers. My nephew (young geek, I'm the OLD geek as Sellam has pointed out) set us up with a PC with Debian Linux, Apache and QMail. He knows all that web/linux stuff, I can muddle through if necessary, but try and avoid it. I guess the thing has our website www.macro-inc.com on it because when I sneaker-net stuff to \var\www\ , it pops up on the web. I do our webpage by text editing the html code (not with TECO though). My nephew pops in every couple of months and updates the Debian, etc. stuff. I got a spare computer and manage to image copy the server hard drive to the backup occasionally. So, I'm pretty much web clueless, but it still doesn't seem such a big deal that I'd have to cut off a leg or something. Which is why I thought Bruce Lane's domain blocking was foolish -- an unnecessary impediment and a hoop I didn't care to have to jump through. Wasn't a big deal. He apologized and I was going to send him the files anyway, but then I thought that if his domain blocking foolishness had no cost he wasn't likely to change, so didn't send them. I'll be happy to send the files if he removes the blocks. Of course Bruce Lane might very well think if someone is so ill considered as to use biz.rr.com, or AOL, or hotmail that he'll let them know it has a cost as well and block them from sending to him. And he has every right to do so. [whois Ed Kelleher] "Google - Images" for "Ed Kelleher" will show you a picture of my father (in white skivvy shirt) in Korea in 1952. I was a few months old at the time. He didn't see me till I was over 2 years old. Another example of nasty American imperialists spending blood and treasure to take advantage of and enslave poor South Korea. As we did in France, Germany, Italy and Japan. And as we're doing to poor Iraq and Afghanastan today. My father made it back, seemingly whole, but didn't live much longer. www.macro-inc.com as has been mentioned is my vocation. "Google - Web" for "Ed Kelleher grassroots" will show you my avocation. Sorry for long OT thing. Ed >Hi, Ed, > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 31-Aug-04 at 14:23 Ed Kelleher wrote: > > >Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex > >tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. > > > >My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. > > > >I have 2 teledisk images and txt file zipped up. > >Is there a place that archives this and would want a copy? > > > > I would be happy to archive these, and make the available to > whoever needs them. > > Please send the disk images along. I run my own servers, so > attachments are not a problem. > > I will post a note to the list when they become available. > > Also, if I may be so nosy: Are you related to Herb Kelleher? > > Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 2 06:38:25 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902073804.024986f8@192.168.0.1> At 11:37 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote: > I was going to make the same point that Ben made: scarf up on a > garage-sale microvave for about .001 of the cost of the ShredderGoody(tm) > and then have a great deal of fun pretending that they're the dying > Enterprise, disintegrating in colorful flames as it makes it's last > re-entry... Can you do that??? :-) Ed From kth at srv.net Thu Sep 2 10:57:29 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <413742E9.6070903@srv.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Paul Koning wrote: >> >> > > > >>>>>>>"Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> Zane> My idea is actually to first dd the HD to a disk image, then >> Zane> prep that disk image under SIMH or E11. Copy the data I want >> Zane> on the HD to the image using the emulator, and then dd it back >> Zane> to the HD. Logically it should work just fine. With RT-11, >> Zane> you shouldn't even need to dd the HD to a disk image, just >> Zane> create whatever size disk image and dd it out there. The other >> Zane> OS's would be a bit more picky. >>Not necessarily. If you tell the simulator that it has an MSCP disk, >>the OS should just accept whatever size it is, because the rule of >>MSCP is that the disk tells the OS its size and the OS makes no >>assumptions. Certainly RSTS does this correctly. >> >>As for "geometry" -- MSCP doesn't have any that the OS can see, or at >>best it has just some vague hints that actually serve no real >>purpose. That certainly fits with modern drives -- anything built in >>the last 10 years or so has a software geometry that has no connection >>to reality, and a real geometry that's (a) not visible, (b) much more >>complex than tracks and cylinders of fixed size. Look at IDE disks, >>for example; they all claim to have 15 heads and 63 sectors, or >>whatever is the max in the old IDE conventions. But those numbers >>have nothing to do with reality, they exist only for backward >>compatibility. >> >> > >Jerome Fine replies: > >HELP!! Something seems to be missing. Is SIMH being used >with SCSI hard disk drives are are the SCSI hard disk drives >first being copied to a hard disk file AFTER which SIMH does: >ATTACH RQ0: hard_disk_file.DSK >I don't know of any command that allows SIMH to ATTACH >a raw SCSI hard drive like E11 allows. What am I missing >in this discussion? PLEASE!!! > > Under Linux, I attach to the cdrom using ATTACH RQ1: /dev/cdrom Hard disk should be similiar (something like /dev/sda). I don't think simh for Windows allows for raw device access like that. From kth at srv.net Thu Sep 2 10:50:03 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks In-Reply-To: <415B6FB2.D996832F@compsys.to> References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <41350D89.AD40399F@compsys.to> <16693.6112.537000.198626@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B6FB2.D996832F@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4137412B.9080203@srv.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Paul Koning wrote: >> >> > > > >> Jerome> Jerome H Fine writes: >> Jerome> I realize that you are probably not running Windows 98 SE, >> Jerome> but I have a Pentium III running Windows 98 SE (because I use >> Jerome> E11 to run PDP-11 programs and this is the ONLY operating >> Jerome> system which works) >>I've said this before.... Linux seems to work just fine for me, >>including hairy stuff like networking. >> >> > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I accept that Linux versions of E11 work very well, but I require >one very special feature of the VT100 emulation: >132 character text lines under KED within RT-11 >Does E11 under Linux allow this? > > Under X11, use xterm -132 as your terminal, and 132 column switching escape sequences works. I don't know why they don't just enable this by default. You can also turn it on via shift-middleclick. >I have tried a number of other Windows operating systems, but >with the same hardware, only Windows 98 SE seems to work. >I understand that Windows 95 works as well, but I did not have >the correct AGP board at the time. > > > >One other aspect of the VT100 emulation is that when I use a >standard PC keyboard with the 6 keys above the arrow keys, >I am able to convert them to operate like the 6 EDIT keys on >a VT220 keyboard (LK201). This allows me to use many of >the features of the VT220 / LK201 keyboard. In addition, I >have mapped the F1 - F12 PC keys into F6 - F20 for the >LK201 keyboard (F14 was not possible). As a result, when >I use the SL: (Single Line Editor) under RT-11, I have many >extra features not available on a VT100. I also tested these >features with a real DEC VT220 and the results were very >satisfying. > > if you shift-leftclick and enable the vt220 keyboard, xterm maps PF1-PF4 to F1-F4, and most of the Fn keys to the corresponging F key on the PC keyboard. Some other keys (help, etc.) get mapped to shift-Fn keys. >I would appreciate any help in using Linux with E11 for these >2 aspects I have just mentioned. > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 08:41:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> <20040902031449.GA10716@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16695.8981.790457.489325@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Wed, Sep 29, 2004 at 10:48:11PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine Ethan> wrote: >> HELP!! Something seems to be missing. Is SIMH being used with >> SCSI hard disk drives are are the SCSI hard disk drives first >> being copied to a hard disk file AFTER which SIMH does: ATTACH >> RQ0: hard_disk_file.DSK I don't know of any command that allows >> SIMH to ATTACH a raw SCSI hard drive like E11 allows. What am I >> missing in this discussion? PLEASE!!! Ethan> I have no idea how to do this with any version of Windows, but Ethan> UNIX/Linux/etc. have always given you access to the raw disk. Ethan> In my case, the relevant command would resemble something Ethan> like... Ethan> ATTACH RQ0: /dev/sda Ethan> (where 'sd' is the driver, and 'a' is the controller). Ethan> This works with any and all emulators since to UNIX, unlike Ethan> Windows, everything is a file. "Devices" are not special Ethan> entities to open()/close() calls, etc. It's not quite that simple. Most Unices (though not Linux) have two ways to look at disks, the regular "block" device, and a "character"[sic] also called "raw". To do raw disk access you have to use the raw device. Second, the application may need to know the size of the disk. With a file that's easy: seek to the end, and ask for the position. While devices are "files", the seek and position technique doesn't work there, at least not on Linux when I was digging into this some years ago. You *can* usually find out how big a device is, but the means are specific to each flavor of the OS. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 08:38:17 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <16695.8777.935596.103958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David Holland writes: David> Speaking of SIMH.. SIMH requires root privileges to do its David> networking (at least on most of its unix host OS's), David> understandably, but I'm not happy with it... David> So I've hacked up some code changes that'll let me change the David> UID/GID & chroot() SIMH is running on from the SIMH console. David> The idea is.. David> attach (network devs) attach (other root owned devs) set priv David> root=/some/chroot/jail gid=-1 uid=-1 (continue configuring) David> Anyways, my question is, does anyone else think this would David> even vaguely be useful? Sounds sensible. Then again, can you achieve the same result by changing the mode or owner/group of the devices in question? Hm, I suppose that doesn't apply to network interfaces because those don't have modes or owners... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 08:49:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Imaging SCSI hard disks References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> <1094094192.15307.60.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <413564C1.6090209@theriver.com> Message-ID: <16695.9427.286242.256597@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Ponsford writes: Tom> David Holland wrote: >> >> >> Wouldn't something like: >> >> attach rq0 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s2 >> >> (Or for Linux) >> >> attach rq0 /dev/sda >> >> for SIMH work? (It'll require root, or a chown of the device) >> And, as I've never tried this.. YMMV.. >> >> David >> Tom> So, if I ran SIMH under freebsd Tom> attach rq0 /dev/fd0.rx50 Tom> and I could attach my physical "emulated rx50" to simh?? Tom> (freebsd has a fd0.rx50 floppy device that I have yet to try) Hm... yes, that would work, if the OS has enough magic to set up the floppy drive to RX50 compatible layout (10 sectors per track, not 9) and does the address remapping to handle the interleave and cylinder shift that RX50s use. Failing that, you can handle those parts at the application level if the OS at least gives you some primitives. That's what I did in Linux for RX50 support in "rstsflx". paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 08:46:30 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> > Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud >> open > ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down >> by harassment > from criminal paramilitary death squad >> organisations like MAPS and ORBS. >> >> Anyone who runs an open relay mail service is quite frankly the >> very definition of harassment and criminal. Cameron> Seconded. No excuse for it in this day and age with just Cameron> about everyone having access to locally supported mail hosts Cameron> they can use for outgoing mail. Open relays serve no purpose Cameron> except to be abused. Indeed. But only fools react to open relays by blacklisting an entire ISP domain, as (I think) ORBS has done. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 08:31:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: E11/Linux and xterm (was: Re: Imaging SCSI hard disks) References: <1469235458.20040829180133@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <523435150.20040830160000@bouncy-castle.demon.co.uk> <41350D89.AD40399F@compsys.to> <16693.6112.537000.198626@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B6FB2.D996832F@compsys.to> Message-ID: <16695.8341.153982.588977@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Paul Koning wrote: Jerome> Jerome H Fine writes: I realize that Jerome> you are probably not running Windows 98 SE, but I have a Jerome> Pentium III running Windows 98 SE (because I use E11 to run Jerome> PDP-11 programs and this is the ONLY operating system which Jerome> works) >> I've said this before.... Linux seems to work just fine for me, >> including hairy stuff like networking. Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: Jerome> I accept that Linux versions of E11 work very well, but I Jerome> require one very special feature of the VT100 emulation: 132 Jerome> character text lines under KED within RT-11 Does E11 under Jerome> Linux allow this? Sure looks that way. I don't have KED nor RT-11, but I just did 132 column mode with VTEDIT.TEC on RSTS/E. Recipe: xterm -132 start E11 in the xterm window Done. Jerome> One other aspect of the VT100 emulation is that when I use a Jerome> standard PC keyboard with the 6 keys above the arrow keys, I Jerome> am able to convert them to operate like the 6 EDIT keys on a Jerome> VT220 keyboard (LK201). ... I haven't tried that sort of thing. Being a TECO guy, I don't have much use for the F keys. paul From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 07:29:59 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Manual for Intellec 8 ? Message-ID: <000001c490e8$90f08230$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Anybody have a spare copy of the "MCS-8 8008 Users Manual", Rev 4 (November, 1973) or later (though Rev 4 is the latest I've seen)? Al has Rev 2 at bitsavers and I have a copy of Rev 3 (March,1973), but the earlier manuals only deal with the SIM-8; Rev 4 introduces the Intellec 8. Of course I'd love to find the actual manual, but a good copy would be greatly appreciated, as would any other info on the 8008-based Intellec 8. I've do have a fair amount of info on the 8080-based Intellec 8I which I will be scanning and posting at bitsavers or Howard Harte's archive. - Jack Rubin Wilmette, Illinois USA From dholland at woh.rr.com Thu Sep 2 07:26:39 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: SIMH & root In-Reply-To: <200409020010.44159.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1094094375.15307.64.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <200409020010.44159.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Under the 2.6 linux kernel, you should be able to use capabilities to > effect the same result, without opening up the entire "running a > process as root" bag of worms. Just don't ask me how, as I've never > used them yet, I just know that they are (should be) there. Judging by the includes, it looks like there's a CAP_NET_RAW that'll allow a process to access PACKET sockets. However, as far as I can tell, you still have to be root to initialize them, and you still end up dropping your root privileges. They're also a little Linux specific for SIMH (imho) setuid(), setgid(), and chroot() exist on most Unix's I know of. (Yes, alegedly capabilities are a POSIX draft, but cap_init() & friends don't exist on Solaris, nor HPUX) I suppose the one advantage to capabilities would be that you could retain your ability to attach/detach network devices once you've dropped your root privileges. The one Linux specific bit of code I _DO_ intend to take a stab at is getting rid of the promiscuous mode requirement. I figure adding a ethernet address to the mac filter list w/ a promiscuous mode fallback is at least slightly better. But FWIW, I'll tidy up this patch and ship it off to Bob Supnik here in a few.. David > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 2 06:27:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:53 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? If you've got a large room and a chair on wheels, put the CD on the floor and then charge at the CD from across the room on the chair. Great in an office environment where you can take turns. Bonus points for not only destroying the CD but crashing through the partition wall at the far end... cheers, Jules From cheri-post at web.de Thu Sep 2 04:56:04 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Software Message-ID: <477938641@web.de> > Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex > tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. > > My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. > Hello Ed, thanks alot for the files. I got these from Fred van Kempen. Thank you very much indeed ! Pierre Gebhardt ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Sep 2 04:27:19 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: VT100 under SIMH In-Reply-To: <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409011812.i81IC0Zq006366@onyx.spiritone.com> <200409020132.VAA17984@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040902100702.10287110@pop.freeserve.net> At 01:53 02/09/2004, der Mouse wrote: >Making double-width and double-height work was one of the things I put >some trouble into when writing mterm. Its decansi mode is a pretty >good VT-100 emulator for output, and in many respects for input too. This reminds me of my experiments with double height.. Double height characters were also a feature of the teletext character set used by Prestel (and Micronet) in the early 80's. I was commissioned to write a terminal program for use on this for the BBC Micro at the time, [to be embedded into another software package] and also took some care over this. One of the "features" of the specification was that a double height character "overflowed" onto the line below, hiding whatever text was sent for that line. Because of the way the BBC display circuitry worked, you actually had to replicate the data on the double-height line on this line too, to make it display the bottom half of the characters. Most terminal emulators took this into account, and then ignored anything that was sent for this second line. I however had access to a "real" hardware terminal, and noted an interesting thing - if you removed the double height sequence from the first line, the second line would then show up with whatever text has been sent for it. If this was itself defined as double height, it would overflow on to the third line, hiding it's original text - if that line had had double height, it would of course be removed, revealing the text on line 4, etc. etc. It was possible therefore to send two sets of 12 lines of double height text or graphics, interleaved, and swap between them simply by sending a single space character to overwrite first double height intro sequence at the top of the screen. By doing this, then putting it back, it was possible to flick backwards and forwards between two /completely different/ images "instantly". (ok, in the time taken to send 2 or 3 characters, but compare to the time taken to send a maximum 768 characters at 1200 baud!) Absolutely amazing to see at the time. Of course, not a single one of the software emulated terminals actually coped with this, (except the one I wrote). Pity, as there were very few users using real ones. Rob. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 11:11:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:50 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: >>> >>> Are you all top endians or bottom endians for email replies? Consus (with significant dissent is that we are "East Enders".... (edit in the pertinent parts, and reply in-line) The most work, but the most readable.... >>> I'll go for bottom endian. >>> Some will be "Tops" and some will be "Bottoms".... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 2 02:56:39 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: Wai-Sun Chia "11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo" (Sep 1, 22:52) References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> Message-ID: <10409020856.ZM11655@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 1 2004, 22:52, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC and > PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) Are you sure? On those BA11-N (and similar) boxes, the whole front is the same colour, logo, PDP-11 designation, and all. It's called DEC Gray #. The only ones that are any different are later ones (eg some BA11-S boxes) for some 11/23-Plus and 11/73 systems, which are still all sprayed the same colour, but then have a black plastic sticker added with the model number. Nothing is supposed to be masked out on any of them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dmhills at attglobal.net Thu Sep 2 01:27:55 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <200409012344.45128.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: The shredder under discussion is overkill for most purposes. There's a much cheaper model around with two toothed rollers held together by a powerful spring. The CD passes between the rollers and gets covered with a myriad of tiny puncture marks on both sides. They're deep enough to puncture the data layer and too deep to be polished out. Plus the device is almost silent in use and much faster than the "shredder" model. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 2 01:36:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200409020650.CAA29607@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Former president of American Internet Relay League and proud open >> ARPA Internet mail relay operator, until being forced down by >> harassment from criminal paramilitary death squad organisations like >> MAPS and ORBS. My dear sir, if you believe criminal behaviour was involved you should be going to law enforcement, not whining here. > Anyone who runs an open relay mail service is quite frankly the very > definition of harassment and criminal. Hardly. At least so far, it is not actually illegal, and thus not criminal - at least not (as far as I've heard) in any relevant jurisdiction. Nor, as far as I can see, is it harassment, though it certainly could be an accomplice before and during the fact. (At least in most senses of harassment. There is a meaning for "harass", "to irritate or torment persistently", by which it could be construed as harassing you for such a thing to merely exist, if its bare existence irritates you.) > There is never, ever, under any circumstance whatsoever, a reason to > have an open relay. Oh, nonsense. Say, on a network not connected in any way to the worldwide Internet, where the (local) convenience *does* outweigh the (small) risk. > For any situation that you can propose as to why an open relay is > needed, I can show you an example of clear lack of understanding in > how to configure the system. Not "needed". Just, like most security, a risk/benefit analysis, here coming out in favor of the low setup and maintenance cost. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 2 11:14:57 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1094141697.1314.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 11:36 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > I'm not sure what a "self-hosted SysAdmin" is but I think I are one too. is that a sysadmin trapped within their own body? :-) J. From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Sep 2 11:15:33 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: OK, done already (Re: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells?) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: Hi all, I think the initial answers to Bruce's question, plus Ed's explanation, are enough to close this thread. If needed, take it off-list and fight, but not on thist list. (I have positive experiences with both, by the way, my EUR 0.02) Thankee, Fred From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 11:24:44 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >>> >>> Indeed. But only fools react to open relays by >>> blacklisting an entire ISP domain, as (I think) ORBS has done. >>> But what IF a major service provider was to decide to "reduce spam" by prefenting ALL of their residential customers from accessing and SMTP server but their own [the cable company's]..... This has actually happended here in NY. You MUST use their SMTP server!!!! [they have blocked ALL outbound traffic on port 25 except to their IP!] From wacarder at usit.net Thu Sep 2 11:19:55 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: Message-ID: <007301c49108$afabe320$5a120f14@mcothran1> I'm flexible. I do it either way ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: RE: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? > >>> > >>> Are you all top endians or bottom endians for email replies? > > Consus (with significant dissent is that we are "East Enders".... > (edit in the pertinent parts, and reply in-line) > The most work, but the most readable.... I'm flexible. I do it either way. > >>> I'll go for bottom endian. > >>> > > Some will be "Tops" and some will be "Bottoms".... > I'm flexible. I do it either way. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 2 11:22:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040902122248.0099aa70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've found that a microwave oven does a thorough job on CDs and it's entertaining to boot! Joe At 07:37 PM 9/1/04 -0700, you wrote: >Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really >tempted to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I >thought others here might be interested in as well. > >http://www.primera.com/ds360_disc_shredder.html > > Zane > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 2 11:31:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902073804.024986f8@192.168.0.1> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040902123133.0093c4a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:38 AM 9/2/04 -0400, Ed wrote: >At 11:37 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote: >> I was going to make the same point that Ben made: scarf up on a >> garage-sale microvave for about .001 of the cost of the ShredderGoody(tm) >> and then have a great deal of fun pretending that they're the dying >> Enterprise, disintegrating in colorful flames as it makes it's last >> re-entry... > > >Can you do that??? You bet! It makes a hell of a light show! Joe From cb at mythtech.net Thu Sep 2 11:32:07 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... Message-ID: >But what IF a major service provider was to decide to "reduce spam" by >prefenting ALL of their residential customers from accessing and SMTP server >but their own [the cable company's]..... > >This has actually happended here in NY. You MUST use their SMTP server!!!! >[they have blocked ALL outbound traffic on port 25 except to their IP!] Which is a huge hassle and annoyance. My sister's ISP just started doing that (cablevision... probably the same NY ISP you are referring to). She now has to have two different account setups. One for when she is home and wants to send email, and one for when she is traveling and wants to send email. Major PITA if you ask me, and seriously overkill for the problem at hand (but fairly typical of the cablevision attitude towards customers). At least if you are going to block port 25, do it like AOL. Capture the traffic and reroute it thru your own mail server. That way users can stay blissfully unaware of the block, and continue to use one mail setup for all occasions. -chris From paulpenn at knology.net Thu Sep 2 12:11:40 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Manual for Intellec 8 ? References: <000001c490e8$90f08230$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <006c01c4910f$e9f12b10$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Jack; As it happens, I do have that exact manual that has been sitting on my various bookshelves since the mid-70's. Do you have any Motorola 6800 stuff to swap for it? Paul A. Pennington Augusta, Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: "Classic Computer List" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:29 AM Subject: Manual for Intellec 8 ? > Anybody have a spare copy of the "MCS-8 8008 Users Manual", Rev 4 > (November, 1973) or later (though Rev 4 is the latest I've seen)? Al has > Rev 2 at bitsavers and I have a copy of Rev 3 (March,1973), but the > earlier manuals only deal with the SIM-8; Rev 4 introduces the Intellec > 8. Of course I'd love to find the actual manual, but a good copy would > be greatly appreciated, as would any other info on the 8008-based > Intellec 8. > > I've do have a fair amount of info on the 8080-based Intellec 8I which I > will be scanning and posting at bitsavers or Howard Harte's archive. > > - > Jack Rubin > Wilmette, Illinois > USA > > From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Sep 2 12:12:29 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c49110$07258460$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > My sister's ISP just started doing that (cablevision... > probably the same > NY ISP you are referring to). She now has to have two > different account > setups. One for when she is home and wants to send email, and one for > when she is traveling and wants to send email. Too bad the mail client (and/or OS) doesn't have a provision for querying DHCP, which can provide an SMTP server response to be used while on the connected network. I view that as a short-coming of the OS, the MUA, and the SMTP protocol. That said, I have the same issue with my ISP (Earthlink) when I use dial-up while on the road. I have been able to solve this problem by exploiting the fact that most networks have a host named "mail" in their domain that will relay from it's network-local addresses (like it's DHCP-assigned addresses). Emulating the above behavior, then, is as follows: I specify simply "mail" as the SMTP server name (with no domain name) in my MUA, and configure to allow the connected network's DHCP server to provide the domain name and DNS servers for the connection. I set up my own network so that my MTA has a CNAME (alias in the Windows world) named "mail" as well, so I don't have to change config when I'm at the office. Now, I can connect with my office Ethernet or using Earthlink dialup without changing my MUA config. And, about 80% of the time I use a hotel's broadband connection, I am able to get a usable server that allows me to send mail without filtering or relay block, without changing my MUA config. Of course, you can also set up a VPN connection to your network or MTA, but that's another can of worms. I think the ISPs are right to block outbound port 25, and I hope they do more of it. A high percentage of the spam that's being blocked by my filters is coming from "dynamic" connections (cable, dial-up, DSL) that make it harder to trace and block on my side, and harder for the ISP to clamp without affecting the next poor customer who gets that IP address. The fact that people have trouble configuring it is a matter of education of the consumer and corrections of shortcomings in the MUAs (not making use of vital information in available protocols). But in my mind, blocking it is no worse an offense by the ISP than seat belt laws, traffic lights, or control towers at airports. And the ISP (or the corporation you work for, etc.) has a right to control its traffic, especially when they are being made increasingly responsible for that traffic by their peers. --Patrick From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 2 12:25:51 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040902123133.0093c4a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902073804.024986f8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040902131444.04b7f4f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: >At 07:38 AM 9/2/04 -0400, Ed wrote: > >At 11:37 PM 9/1/2004, you wrote: > >> I was going to make the same point that Ben made: scarf up on a > >> garage-sale microvave for about .001 of the cost of the ShredderGoody(tm) > >> and then have a great deal of fun pretending that they're the dying > >> Enterprise, disintegrating in colorful flames as it makes it's last > >> re-entry... > > > > > >Can you do that??? > > You bet! It makes a hell of a light show! If one is worried about poofing one's microwave oven, it *helps* if you put the CD on a ceramic mug full of water. One is still putting metallic objects into a nuker, which in practice is bad, but putting metallic objects into a nuker with absolutely no place to go (re: just the CD) is worse. (and yes, just because *your* nuker may survive this, doesn't mean *everybody's* nuker may survive!) I don't do it as I just spent too much on my new nuker. However, I have seen it done, and it is kewl. ;-) WRT the CD shredder thingy - I keep one on my hip. It's called a leatherman. Get it out, unfold the knife, 4-5 swipes with the blade (taking care to *only* cut the CD, and not oneself in the process ;-) ) And you're done. I could find a *lot* better ways to whizz away $130! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 12:39:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <002e01c49110$07258460$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: >>> I think the ISPs are right to block outbound port 25, and I >>> hope they do more of it. A high percentage of the spam >>> that's being blocked by my filters is coming from "dynamic" >>> connections (cable, dial-up, DSL) that make it harder to >>> trace and block on my side, and harder for the ISP to clamp >>> without affecting the next poor customer who gets that IP >>> address. The fact that people have trouble configuring it >>> is a matter of education of the consumer and corrections of >>> shortcomings in the MUAs (not making use of vital >>> information in available protocols). But in my mind, >>> blocking it is no worse an offense by the ISP than seat >>> belt laws, traffic lights, or control towers at airports. >>> And the ISP (or the corporation you work for, >>> etc.) has a right to control its traffic, especially when >>> they are being made increasingly responsible for that >>> traffic by their peers. I have to COMPLETELY disagree. An ISP that blocks OUTBOUND access to ANY legal/conforming site or service is being overly restrictive. If I want to send spam mail I can and will [I DO NOT] by simply running a WebService on my external site and talking to that from within the ISP domain. Blocking outbound access provides NO benefit to ANYONE [except lazy ignorant fools!] It DOES prevent me from using ShadowMail [which runs on in conjunction with my SMTP and POP3 accounts on my server(s) in Denver and allows review of all inbound and outbound mail messages for a limited time from ANY (secure) site]. It DOES prevent me from using MailAuthorizeIT [which utilizes the originating IP and MAC of a message for authentication!] It also makes it more difficult for me to service over 500 clients who have Exchange Server Hosted on my Denver based servers. [Please NO blasting of MS products in response to this thread ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 12:42:07 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00ee01c49114$2afe5160$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Indeed. But only fools react to open relays by blacklisting an entire > ISP domain, as (I think) ORBS has done. Blocking a whole domain is silly, to me at least from the ISP prospective. I defend an end client's right to do so though. I am not aware of ORBS blocking whole domains, however, there ARE some domains out there that are so exclusively the home of spammers I can certainly understand it. Of course mail server admins are free to do what they want, including open relaying. However, I am also free to disallow my servers from talking to servers run by such admins. Not a whole domain, but a particular mail server. I guess is someone is infected with a contagious disease, one can argue it is their right to stand on a street corner and intentionally cough on everyone. But... I also have every right to walk away and not put myself in contact with them. Same thing for mail servers. If someone configures their server in such a careless way that my server connecting to it can cause my server a problem (50gb of spam), I have every right to decide not to allow connections to that mail server. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 2 12:55:27 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: References: <002e01c49110$07258460$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040902135333.03d62cb8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >It also makes it more difficult for me to service over 500 clients who have >Exchange Server Hosted on my Denver based servers. [Please NO blasting of MS >products in response to this thread ] Does that mean it's still OK to blast *you* for using M$ products??? ;-) ;-PPPPPPPPPP Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 12:57:38 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG><001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020650.CAA29607@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <010201c49116$55ae2280$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Hardly. At least so far, it is not actually illegal, and thus not > criminal - at least not (as far as I've heard) in any relevant > jurisdiction. Nor, as far as I can see, is it harassment, though it Are you trying to say that when my mail server connects to theirs (or vice versa) and gets a diskfilling denial of service due to spam that causes my system to crash and or become unusable, which takes out service for thousands of my customers, isn't harassment? Of COURSE it is. > Oh, nonsense. Say, on a network not connected in any way to the > worldwide Internet, where the (local) convenience *does* outweigh the > (small) risk. WRONG - give me an example of this "local convenience". Just take 10 minutes to configure the allowable src/dst and it wont be necessary. So what you are saying is it's ok to create a dangerous situation rather than configure it right to only allow relaying from truely local domains because it's "out of reach". I see two problems with your stance. First, that system MAY be "off the net". But what if a year later it's decided to add it to the net? Or second, what happens if it's configured for open relaying and is behind a firewall, and later some hacker gets around the firewall (read: VPN)? They then have a machine "ready to r0ck dudez!". Just do your JOB in the first place, instead of being LAZY and none of this is an issue. Let me give you an analogy in response. Setting a can of gasoline and an open flame lantern next to eachother on the sidewalk of a busy street is a STUPID idea. But you know what? Setting a can of gasoline and an open flame latern next to eachother in the privacy of your own home, behind locked doors... is *STILL* irresponsible. It's just plain LAZY. > Not "needed". Just, like most security, a risk/benefit analysis, here > coming out in favor of the low setup and maintenance cost. setting it up right IS low setup and low maintenance. Setting it up wrong is begging for high cost. More specifically, an admin who takes the route of.. "Oh, I'm just going to allow open relay because it SHOULDNT cause a problem", is someone who is careless and more importantly, leaving a large timebomb waiting for some other admin later (or themselves) to step on. I could ALMOST see your point if configuring the allowable src/dst was a non trivial task. The fact is, it takes just a couple minutes. So sys admins who use that excuse are just plain lazy, and irresponsible. Unfortunately, they are not just putting themselves at peril, they are putting others at peril due to their laziness. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 12:59:16 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... References: Message-ID: <010801c49116$8fd18ec0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > But what IF a major service provider was to decide to "reduce spam" by > prefenting ALL of their residential customers from accessing and SMTP server > but their own [the cable company's]..... > > This has actually happended here in NY. You MUST use their SMTP server!!!! > [they have blocked ALL outbound traffic on port 25 except to their IP!] You are missing the big picture of how this all works. Them insisting you use their smtp server (for outbound) is a perfectly sane and reasonable thing. And what do you mean "this actually happened in new york"? What you describe is the way it HAS been at probably more than 90% of ISP's for the past 5+ years. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 13:00:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00ee01c49114$2afe5160$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: >> Indeed. But only fools react to open relays by blacklisting an >> entire ISP domain, as (I think) ORBS has done. Jay> Blocking a whole domain is silly, to me at least from the ISP Jay> prospective. I defend an end client's right to do so though. Jay> I am not aware of ORBS blocking whole domains, however, there Jay> ARE some domains out there that are so exclusively the home of Jay> spammers I can certainly understand it. I'm not sure if it was ORBS or another one of those blacklist "services". In any case, it was blacklisting all domains belonging to SPRINT and SPRINTnet. I found out because our company uses or used SPRINT as its ISP, as do millions of others. It turned out that this was done on purpose. I concluded that the people running that blacklist are utter morons, and since then I have seen similar idiotic actions either by that same outfit or by others like it (for example, blacklisting adelphia.net smtp servers because one Adelphia customer sent spam via that server). It may be that there exist blacklist operators with more than room temperature IQ. But the samples I have seen to date are not encouraging. paul From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 2 13:07:07 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: iris 3030 on ebay Message-ID: <20040902180707.478853CDF@spies.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5718617192 someone on the east coast should give this a home. looks to be a well configured system. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 13:23:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: BLAST ZONE In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040902135333.03d62cb8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Does that mean it's still OK to blast *you* for using M$ products??? >>> ;-) ;-PPPPPPPPPP >>> >>> Laterz, >>> Roger "Merch" Merchberger >>> Of Course! As long as it is not part of THAT thread! I also reserve the right to make a highly profitable living by doing so! From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 2 12:09:38 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Software In-Reply-To: <477938641@web.de> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902130900.031a3af0@192.168.0.1> At 05:56 AM 9/2/2004, you wrote: > > Got an email offlist from a person in .de wanting a copy of Emulex > > tape/disk/comm product diagnostics and formatters. > > > > My replies keep bouncing, so go ahead and contact me again please. > > > >Hello Ed, > >thanks alot for the files. >I got these from Fred van Kempen. > >Thank you very much indeed ! > >Pierre Gebhardt Good, you're quite welcome. Ed From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 2 13:27:27 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: John Titor's computer on sale in ebay Message-ID: Here's the link... Lots of internal pictures.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=1247&item=5120020116&rd=1 Anyone have an APL for my Mac SE? I used to have one when I had an SE. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 2 13:11:52 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <010201c49116$55ae2280$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG><001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020650.CAA29607@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <010201c49116$55ae2280$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200409021827.OAA02274@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Nor, as far as I can see, is it harassment, > Are you trying to say that when my mail server connects to theirs (or > vice versa) and gets a diskfilling denial of service due to spam that > causes my system to crash and or become unusable, which takes out > service for thousands of my customers, isn't harassment? No, I'm not. I'm saying that the open relay is not harassement. Certain uses that can be made of it are, but in itself it is not. I can crank-call you while you're sleeping from a pay phone, too, but the phone is not the harassment; the calls are. (An open relay is an invitation to such abuse, hence the "accomplice before and during" part, but that's all.) >> Oh, nonsense. Say, on a network not connected in any way to the >> worldwide Internet, where the (local) convenience *does* outweigh >> the (small) risk. > WRONG - give me an example of this "local convenience". Lower maintenance cost. Lower setup cost. > Just take 10 minutes to configure the allowable src/dst and it wont > be necessary. It requires figuring out how to configure it, if nothing else, and it really isn't always necessary. In particular, it is not for _you_ to say when the risk outweighs the benefit on _somone else's_ setup. I note that all your "but what if"s assume that the setup is an ongoing thing. Suppose I'm experimenting with some captured malware on three machines completely isolated from anything else (nothing but sneakernet from the net to it, nothing at all from it to the net except for my knowledge resulting from the analysis), all of which will have their disks wiped when I'm done. Where's the risk? Maybe I'll accidentally run an Ethernet cable to the wrong side of the room? I think that's significantly less likely than my misconfiguring an on-the-net server as open by mistake. > Or second, what happens if it's configured for open relaying and is > behind a firewall, I didn't say "behind a firewall"; I said "not connected in any way to the worldwide Internet". >> Just, like most security, a risk/benefit analysis, here coming out >> in favor of the low setup and maintenance cost. > setting it up right IS low setup and low maintenance. Not as low as setting it up totally open - especially when it's an unfamiliar MTA. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Sep 2 13:47:25 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c4911d$4a13fec0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > I have to COMPLETELY disagree. An ISP that blocks OUTBOUND > access to ANY legal/conforming site or service is being > overly restrictive. But they have a right to ensure that, and by forcing you to put that traffic through their server first, they at least have an opportunity to check it. If they force it and don't check, I agree that's overly restrictive. But if they're checking, more power to 'em in my book. > If I want to send spam mail I can and will [I DO NOT] by > simply running a WebService on my external site and talking > to that from within the ISP domain. That may be true, but look at who you are dealing with. Many of them really don't have a clue how all this works, they just buy some mass-mailing email package specifically built for spamming, buy/make/scrape lists, and have at it. I'd wager that most of them bought the package from a spam they received. Regardless, they don't have a clue how it really works and why. Some of them don't even bother to change data in fields where it says "". The kind of plumbing you are talking about, although relatively simple, is out of reach of their technical skill (which is negligible). ISPs are also dealing with worm- and bot-infected servers and clients on their networks spreading email-based infections or becoming remote platforms for spamming. Here we sit in 2004 and people still don't get that you MUST protect yourself from viruses, and that IF your machine becomes a vector YOU are responsible for it and YOU MUST clean it up. ISPs have long been chasing people who have infected machines who are mass-mailing worms to other systems in huge volume, and in many cases people do nothing about it because they don't know what to do and it isn't affecting their operation of their system as far as they can tell. Despite warnings from ISPs, coverage in mass-media, and monthly dire warnings from Nostradamus Symantecus, people still open attachments in email from people they don't know, and they still run their systems without any kind of virus protection, still connect their machines without a firewall (or turn it off because it's "getting in the way"), and set up their home wireless networks without security of any kind. The time spent by ISPs chasing the lazy and the clue-challenged is escalating, and they have to do something to relieve that, or the cost of that effort is going to be distributed to all of us. There has to be a balance. And people have to get used to the idea that the Internet isn't the Wild West any more. It was great when we were all students and working cooperatively to connect each other, share information, and experiment with the possibility that one day you'd be able to talk to someone behind the iron curtain surreptitiously about your theories in particle physics or what makes a really good beer. Times have changed. You can't just do what you want when you want, all for free or close to it, and demand that it work perfectly all the time as well. It's a global community, and you have to take responsibility for your role in it, work by its rules, and be adaptable as they change. > Blocking outbound access > provides NO benefit to ANYONE [except lazy ignorant fools!] I can't respond to this except to say that aside from the fact that this statement is inappropriately inflammatory and doesn't reflect well on your argument, it's completely baseless. > It DOES prevent me from using ShadowMail [which runs on in > conjunction with my SMTP and POP3 accounts on my server(s) in > Denver and allows review of all inbound and outbound mail > messages for a limited time from ANY (secure) site]. It DOES > prevent me from using MailAuthorizeIT [which utilizes the > originating IP and MAC of a message for authentication!] > > It also makes it more difficult for me to service over 500 > clients who have Exchange Server Hosted on my Denver based > servers. [Please NO blasting of MS products in response to > this thread ] Hmmm, I think that's a good use for a VPN (assuming that's a corporate service you're referring to). Or how about just choosing another port? Set up an MTA that will only forward to your Exchange server, and put it on port 50025. I'm not sure all MUAs allow you to configure the SMTP port, but all the ones I use do (and for the record, I mostly use Microsoft-provided MUAs). In any case, I don't think I'm going to change your opinion, and you certainly will not change mine. There's been some impassioned discussion of this topic on the NANOG mail list recently as well, I think people are as divided on it as you and I are. But I think everyone can agree that between spamming and mass-mailing worms, the simple elegant utility of email is being brutally tarnished. --Patrick From mail at g-lenerz.de Thu Sep 2 13:59:11 2004 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: iris 3030 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20040902180707.478853CDF@spies.com> References: <20040902180707.478853CDF@spies.com> Message-ID: <483702127.20040902205911@g-lenerz.de> Hello, Thursday, September 2, 2004, 8:07:07 PM, you wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5718617192 > someone on the east coast should give this a home. indeed. I always find it hard to believe how little information on these systems is left (and how few systems). > looks to be a well configured system. Can't get very much better I guess. Looking at the IRIS pictures that have been popping up recently and my own one there are some things I'm wondering: 1) Why do the IRISes look that different on their back sides? See auction pictures for one model, and see http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/pictures/iris.html#3130 and http://hardware.majix.org/computers/sgi.iris/iris3130.shtml for another variant. 2) Why does the 3130 shown in the links above have fewer Multibus slots (some in the middle are left blank without sockets)? Because it is an OEM machine that isn't supposed to offer the full capabilities of an IRIS? 3) The wheels seem to be a common point of failure. I've got also one or two broken ones. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail@g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 2 14:08:04 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > I'm not sure if it was ORBS or another one of those blacklist > "services". In any case, it was blacklisting all domains belonging to > SPRINT and SPRINTnet. I found out because our company uses or used > SPRINT as its ISP, as do millions of others. It turned out that this > was done on purpose. > > I concluded that the people running that blacklist are utter morons, > and since then I have seen similar idiotic actions either by that same > outfit or by others like it (for example, blacklisting adelphia.net > smtp servers because one Adelphia customer sent spam via that server). They're not morons, they just have a ruthless attitude about companies that won't enforce their own AUP. That's how Sprint got whole IP blocks blacklisted. It likely never would have happened had they actually gone after the spammers lurking on their networks. g. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 14:13:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <003c01c4911d$4a13fec0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: >>> But they have a right to ensure that, and by forcing you to >>> put that traffic through their server first, they at least >>> have an opportunity to check it. >>> If they force it and don't check, I agree that's overly >>> restrictive. But if they're checking, more power to 'em in my book. The key word here is FIRST. They are completely preventing me from talking to a valid application running at 123.123.123.123:25. >>> ISPs are also dealing with worm- and bot-infected servers >>> and clients on their networks spreading email-based >>> infections or becoming remote platforms for spamming. So block/shutdown the offenders, not the valid users! >>> There has to be a balance. I see NO balance here. >>> > Blocking outbound access >>> > provides NO benefit to ANYONE [except lazy ignorant fools!] >>> >>> I can't respond to this except to say that aside from the >>> fact that this statement is inappropriately inflammatory >>> and doesn't reflect well on your argument, it's completely baseless. If a person is unable or unwilling to do a competent job, they would not survive long at my firm. The comment was perhaps inflammatory, but I still do not see how this provides any benefit other than Treating a symtom rather than a cause [which MAY be cheaper]. >>> > ShadowMail and MailAuthorizeIT >>> >>> Hmmm, I think that's a good use for a VPN (assuming that's >>> a corporate service you're referring to). Or how about >>> just choosing another port? Set up an MTA that will only >>> forward to your Exchange server, and put it on port 50025. >>> I'm not sure all MUAs allow you to configure the SMTP port, >>> but all the ones I use do (and for the record, I mostly use >>> Microsoft-provided MUAs). Yes a VPN (or even SMTPS) will adress this issue. What has me really "hot under the collar" right now is that CableVision (optonline.net) did this over the weekend with NO NOTIFICATION! Now I have a large number of clients screaming and blaming MY company [at least I can point them to the Place where optimum.net posted the policy AFTER the fact. >>> In any case, I don't think I'm going to change your >>> opinion, and you certainly will not change mine. There's >>> been some impassioned discussion of this topic on the NANOG >>> mail list recently as well, I think people are as divided >>> on it as you and I are. But I think everyone can agree >>> that between spamming and mass-mailing worms, the simple >>> elegant utility of email is being brutally tarnished. I am not looking to change any opinions. I simply ask where there is a Valid technical benefit of blocking an outboust connection based solely on the port number. If a specific IP is "doing bad things" on a port, then block that port, Heck even block the whole IP! From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 2 14:03:15 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16695.28275.932008.853100@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gene" == Gene Buckle writes: >> I'm not sure if it was ORBS or another one of those blacklist >> "services". In any case, it was blacklisting all domains >> belonging to SPRINT and SPRINTnet. I found out because our >> company uses or used SPRINT as its ISP, as do millions of others. >> It turned out that this was done on purpose. >> >> I concluded that the people running that blacklist are utter >> morons, and since then I have seen similar idiotic actions either >> by that same outfit or by others like it (for example, >> blacklisting adelphia.net smtp servers because one Adelphia >> customer sent spam via that server). Gene> They're not morons, they just have a ruthless attitude about Gene> companies that won't enforce their own AUP. I guess we'll just have different opinions here. I will continue to view them as morons and describe them as morons whenever this issue comes up. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 2 14:22:25 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <16695.28275.932008.853100@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > > Gene> They're not morons, they just have a ruthless attitude about > Gene> companies that won't enforce their own AUP. > > I guess we'll just have different opinions here. I will continue to > view them as morons and describe them as morons whenever this issue > comes up. > That's ok. Frankly I wish they'd issue hunting licenses for spammers so I could firebomb their homes legally. :) g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 2 15:11:37 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: spammers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040902130647.M90370@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Gene Buckle wrote: > That's ok. Frankly I wish they'd issue hunting licenses for spammers so I > could firebomb their homes legally. :) Apparently, there are already people doing that. But, because it is inconvenient to deal with somebody who is not local, there needs to be comprehensive, detailed, and accurate publication of spammer identities, so that their neighbors can help them to make the decision to stop. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Sep 2 15:22:06 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902080414.036a8550@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <018401c4912a$8d160120$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? > > "Google - Images" for "Ed Kelleher" will show you a picture of my father > (in white skivvy shirt) in Korea in 1952. > I was a few months old at the time. He didn't see me till I was over 2 > years old. Another example of nasty American imperialists spending blood > and treasure to take advantage of and enslave poor South Korea. As we did > in France, Germany, Italy and Japan. > And as we're doing to poor Iraq and Afghanastan today. My father made it > back, seemingly whole, but didn't live much longer. > > www.macro-inc.com as has been mentioned is my vocation. > > "Google - Web" for "Ed Kelleher grassroots" will show you my avocation. > > Sorry for long OT thing. > > Ed > > Not your father's fault - or anyone else who served in the armed forces. When it comes to governments that's different. Without going back too far in time , Afghanistan wasn't doing too bad under the Russians - women had the right to education and to wear what they liked. It was a relatively stable and prosperous country for that part of the world. Along comes Uncle Sam and gives old Osama and his mujahideen pals lots of money and arms ( and cia training ) to kick out the Russians in a bloody war and the muslims take charge - first thing they do is stop poppy growing - no more heroin . Good thing huh? But the women are back in the stone age. Then Al and the quieda's ( Osama's backing group ) start kicking up shit and biting the hand that armed them - so in goes Uncle Sam and he's still in there .The next thing you know - poppy/heroin production is at an all time high - Yay ! Good thing huh? The country's in ruins , your soldiers are being killed , the civilians are being killed- and your government bloody well started it !Old Osama and his gang got their start with the good 'ol US of A. Governments start it and the population , on all sides , bear the brunt. The words stir and hornets and nest spring to mind. This is a rant against your ( and with Iraq - my ) government, not the poor buggers who are in the firing line - which may be you or me soon. p.s. you forgot south america - but the cia do a good job so no troops needed. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Sep 2 15:26:50 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <01d501c4912c$a48cdca0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:27 PM Subject: Re: CD Shredder > On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:53 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in the trash? > > If you've got a large room and a chair on wheels, put the CD on the > floor and then charge at the CD from across the room on the chair. Great > in an office environment where you can take turns. Bonus points for not > only destroying the CD but crashing through the partition wall at the > far end... > > cheers, > > Jules > Someone over here was using old aol and other freebie cd's to make interactive rooms for stimulating autistic children . Haven't heard of them for a while though. Geoff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 2 15:44:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41378626.8020406@mdrconsult.com> David V. Corbin wrote: > I have to COMPLETELY disagree. An ISP that blocks OUTBOUND access to ANY > legal/conforming site or service is being overly restrictive. > > If I want to send spam mail I can and will [I DO NOT] by simply running a > WebService on my external site and talking to that from within the ISP > domain. Blocking outbound access provides NO benefit to ANYONE [except lazy > ignorant fools!] You just defined most spammers, with respect to network and MTA configuration. Add to that that a large percentage of spam is relayed through compromised systems, and blocking outgoing port 25 from a dynamic netblock is reasonable. It *helps* the spam and Windows worm traffic a lot. Earthlink, Comcast, and several other major providers block port 25. I travel quite a bit, and most of the hotel fast-access providers do the same. My email users (mdrconsult.com accounts) cover all the above with their home & road accounts, and none need any secondary configuration. Our relayed SMTP uses SSL/TLS and SMTP AUTH on ports 465 and 587. Nobody blocks those ports, nor are they likely to ever do so. My users' mail is secured, my server can't be used as a relay, and $ISP's self-protective measures are irrelevant. Doc From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Sep 2 15:51:00 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder Message-ID: I was down at the computer surplus store and found a shredder in the metal recycling bin. The case and covers were missing. I purchased it. It has a chain drive, larger than a bike chain, large motor, and will reverse if it stalls. Lots of nice whirring bare blades/disks. It will handle about a 1/2 inch thick pile of paper at one time. CD's don't even slow it down. My wife has come home to find me sitting on the floor shredding old checks and tax returns. Kind of therapeutic to here the whir and watch paper turned into strips. I then feed it in again and out comes chips of paper. Paper clips are OK, only has a problem with paper clamps. Kind of dangerous, but what fun is a safe shredder. Probably needs dual interlocks so that I must have both hands on them to prevent me shredding my fingers. Mike From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 2 15:54:53 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00ee01c49114$2afe5160$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4137889D.8070309@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Jay" == Jay West writes: > > Jay> I am not aware of ORBS blocking whole domains, however, there > Jay> ARE some domains out there that are so exclusively the home of > Jay> spammers I can certainly understand it. > > I'm not sure if it was ORBS or another one of those blacklist > "services". In any case, it was blacklisting all domains belonging to > SPRINT and SPRINTnet. I found out because our company uses or used > SPRINT as its ISP, as do millions of others. It turned out that this > was done on purpose. > > I concluded that the people running that blacklist are utter morons, > and since then I have seen similar idiotic actions either by that same > outfit or by others like it (for example, blacklisting adelphia.net > smtp servers because one Adelphia customer sent spam via that server). That was ORBS, IIRC, and I have to agree with you concerning their apparent intelligence. Their practices and processes seem much closer to ideological extortion than to spam prevention. Doc From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Sep 2 16:08:08 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: OT: RE: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > >>> ISPs are also dealing with worm- and bot-infected servers > >>> and clients on their networks spreading email-based > >>> infections or becoming remote platforms for spamming. > > So block/shutdown the offenders, not the valid users! Uh, I guess I missed the "I'm a white-hat packet" bit in RFC 793. :-) They do block the offenders, but of course, they don't know who they are until damage is being done, or after. I think it's clear that closing outbound port 25 is first-order defensive damage control in their view. Think about it: if you were to get on site right now and sign-up for a dial-up account (assuming no outbound filtering), how much email do you think you'd be able to push through that connection before they noticed and turned you off? Maybe, MAYBE they're monitoring bandwidth closely enough to detect the pattern, but still, you'd be at the noise level in that network for quite a while. More likely, they won't really notice until their abuse@ mailbox is stuffed with four-letter expletives. I'm guessing you could easily get a few hundred thousand, maybe even a million, out, and perhaps even cancel the account before anybody noticed the activity. To add insult to injury, do it on a bunch of the ISP's stolen accounts you bought from a guy who ran a phishing scheme. Or maybe just don't pay the bill, or pay it on a stolen credit card so the ISP gets the extra fines of a chargeback in addition to having to eat the operational costs. > >>> There has to be a balance. > > I see NO balance here. You're not being objective, IMHO. So, are you telling me your clients will know the difference and prefer to pay a higher price to have free access to port 25, at the cost of subsidizing the ISPs increased staff and expense to source and operate the kind of monitoring that can tell, in unfiltered real time, what's good traffic and what's bad (deterministically, I might add, lest they again incur your wrath), and crisply manage the thousands or tens of thousands of its customers who are unwittingly running mailbots and can't figure out how to stop it or deal with it? > If a person is unable or unwilling to do a competent job, > they would not survive long at my firm. The comment was > perhaps inflammatory, but I still do not see how this > provides any benefit > other than > Treating a symtom rather than a cause [which MAY be cheaper]. I agree completely with this, but unfortunately it's all we've got right now... Band-aids. There are fundamental flaws in the protocol that need to be addressed, and beyond that is the migration of every client and server to those newer or updated protocols. The protocol was fine when duty and honor ruled the Internet. That was short-lived, and the new reality is that an unauthenticated protocol will be abused to the very limits of its capability, even to the eventual exclusion of its legitimate use. > Yes a VPN (or even SMTPS) will adress this issue. What has me > really "hot > under the collar" right now is that CableVision > (optonline.net) did this > over the weekend with NO NOTIFICATION! Earthlink did the same, and I'll readily confess that I was pretty steamed when they did it, until I had time to reason it out, understand why, and come up with a workaround that I was satisfied with. But I didn't like being surprised by it. But now that several large ISPs have undertaken this practice, I can honestly say that I do see a reduced volume of spam from cable, DSL, and domestic dial-up connections into our network. It has done nothing to reduce volume from non-US providers, though, of course. And if what you say about optonline.net is true, then I'll also give them an "atta boy" for doing it (but not the way they handled it). That's a very familiar domain in my world as an identified spam source. I'll probably get a benefit I can measure, at least until the bad guys find another ISP who hasn't done it yet. > Now I have a large number of clients screaming and blaming MY > company [at > least I can point them to the > Place where optimum.net posted the policy AFTER the fact. Well, if I had a dollar for every time we got blamed for another ISP's activities (or that of the client themselves), I wouldn't be writing this from my desk at work. I feel your pain, but it's part of the job. > I am not looking to change any opinions. I simply ask where > there is a > Valid technical benefit of blocking an outboust connection > based solely on > the port number. If a specific IP is "doing bad things" on a > port, then > block that port, Heck even block the whole IP! That's even less effective! Given that most ISPs are moving to dynamic addressing, that's even more of an inconvenience to the customer. Give them a consistent limitation (like blocking outbound 25) and the customers can wrap their ears around it, and eventually adapt. Make it random (which is what IP blocking is in the customer's perspective, because they get what they get invisibly) and they'll flail. By example, I had this problem recently with my next door neighbor: My company provides web, domain, and mail service for her (a "friends and family" deal). Recently, she tried to send some email, and our MTA blocked it because the IP address she was using (SBC ADSL/dynamic) was on the SpamHaus SBL/XBL. She's not a spammer, for sure, and she had no worms or virii. But, apparently some other person who had been temporarily assigned that IP address perhaps 30 minutes, two hours, or even two days before wasn't as clean and someone put the address on the list. She had to call SBC and ask that they submit a request for removal from that list (guess how well that call went?). Ultimately, I reconfigured my MTA so that anyone who successfully authenticates POP3 will not be screened through the SBL. It opens a small hole that I have to manage, but the kind of customer I deal with is highly unlikely to spam. The use of dynamic addressing also means that the source can move faster than you can block it. In fact, the real, identifiable source is the destination port, not the source IP address, and hence the obvious choice. I don't think a large ISP would choose to do this arbitrarily, and more, I don't think a large number of the largest of them would all do it if they weren't convinced that the benefit was worth the inconvenience they are creating to their customers. I lurk on NANOG and learn a lot, and it's clear to me that these guys talk and think through things extensively before they start making systemic changes like that. The business side may forget to tell you, but that's a different problem. And if the inconvenience of the unauthenticated protocol being "hobbled" forces people to move the authenticated protocols, I'm even more in favor of it, because it's where we need to be. Helping a client get a stable, secure email connection is time well spent in my opinion, for reasons that go beyond the issue of spam. --Patrick From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 16:41:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <41378626.8020406@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >>> From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] >>> You just defined most spammers, with respect to network >>> and MTA configuration. Add to that that a large percentage >>> of spam is relayed through compromised systems, and >>> blocking outgoing port 25 from a dynamic netblock is >>> reasonable. It *helps* the spam and Windows worm traffic a lot. Yes, it WILL decrease spam, but so would pulling the plug on the entire net. Seriously, look at the entire route a piece of spam takes and who it impacts. The generation of a large number of e-mails definitly impacts the people who RECEIVE them, the networks that CARRY them, the servers that GENERATE them. IMNSHO any of these people are quite within their rights (and even responsibilites) to block them. If my ISP had determined that the SMTP server at somespammer.net was being a bad boy, then let them blacklist that server. As I stated before, this policy (blocking outbound SMTP) does not impact the millions of people who are generating spam outside the ISP and ten clogging the ISP bandwith and my Inbox with spam. A polict of blocking both inbound and outbound traffic to specific IP addresses would address this also. Even setting a default of blocking all port 25 access would be reasonable IF THEY WERE WILLING TO OPEN SPECIFIC IP's upon reciept of a document validiting the need for the access. >>> Earthlink, Comcast, and several other major providers >>> block port 25. >>> I travel quite a bit, and most of the hotel fast-access >>> providers do the same. My email users (mdrconsult.com >>> accounts) cover all the above with their home & road >>> accounts, and none need any secondary configuration. Our >>> relayed SMTP uses SSL/TLS and SMTP AUTH on ports 465 and >>> 587. Nobody blocks those ports, nor are they likely to ever do so. True, but what would you do IF your ISP decided do block those ports (maybe they just don't like the numbers). Consider the impact on you (especially from a support point) if tomorrow morning ALL of your clients started reporting that they could not send e-amil and were blaming you [especially until you figured out WHAT was happenin!]. That is what /I have put up with this week..... >>> My users' mail is secured, my server can't be used as a >>> relay, and $ISP's self-protective measures are irrelevant. Except for as mentioned above! From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 2 16:56:07 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413796F7.6020907@mdrconsult.com> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] > > >>>> You just defined most spammers, with respect to network >>>>and MTA configuration. Add to that that a large percentage >>>>of spam is relayed through compromised systems, and >>>>blocking outgoing port 25 from a dynamic netblock is >>>>reasonable. It *helps* the spam and Windows worm traffic a lot. > > > Yes, it WILL decrease spam, but so would pulling the plug on the entire net. > Seriously, look at the entire route a piece of spam takes and who it > impacts. > The generation of a large number of e-mails definitly impacts the people who > RECEIVE them, the networks that CARRY them, the servers that GENERATE them. > > IMNSHO any of these people are quite within their rights (and even > responsibilites) > to block them. > > If my ISP had determined that the SMTP server at somespammer.net was being a > bad boy, then let them blacklist that server. > > As I stated before, this policy (blocking outbound SMTP) does not impact the > millions of people who are generating spam outside the ISP and ten clogging > the ISP bandwith and my Inbox with spam. A polict of blocking both inbound > and outbound traffic to specific IP addresses would address this also. > > Even setting a default of blocking all port 25 access would be reasonable IF > THEY WERE WILLING TO OPEN SPECIFIC IP's upon reciept of a document > validiting the need for the access. I'd like this too. Doesn't look like it'll happen, ever. >>>>accounts, and none need any secondary configuration. Our >>>>relayed SMTP uses SSL/TLS and SMTP AUTH on ports 465 and >>>>587. Nobody blocks those ports, nor are they likely to ever do so. > > > True, but what would you do IF your ISP decided do block those ports (maybe > they just don't like the numbers). Consider the impact on you (especially > from a support point) if tomorrow morning ALL of your clients started > reporting that they could not send e-amil and were blaming you [especially > until you figured out WHAT was happenin!]. No ISP is likely to block encrypted/authenticated ports, simply because a mailserver listening to those ports is very probably hardened. It seems to me that your issue here is personal, and stems much more from the total lack of warning by opton, which *was* entirely negligent, than the actual policy of blocking port 25. The final argument here is that if we wanted to run *real* mail servers, we'd have "real" connectivity, i.e. colocated hardware. As long as we're going with the much cheaper ISP route, we're at the mercy of the ISP's [often uninformed] whim. Doc From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 2 17:04:25 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> References: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: So I have a classic naive question: Why does there not exist a 'throttling mechanism' at every step, counting e-mails per minute, and directing messages above that threshold (and that are 'substantially similar)' to dev\null. If an organization has a legitimate and documented reason to send more than, say 5 or 10 'substantially similar' messages per unit time - then let them be "licensed" (for want of a better term) and subject to whatever controls are available.... That would simply stop bulk mailers cold - of course it's easy to conceive of these things when one has no concept of how the "system" works as whole... which I of course most assuredly do not. Cheers John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 17:15:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <413796F7.6020907@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>>>From: Doc Shipley [mailto:doc@mdrconsult.com] >>> >>> It seems to me that your issue here is personal, and >>> stems much more from the total lack of warning by opton, >>> which *was* entirely negligent, than the actual policy of >>> blocking port 25. The anger, resentment, heat does come from the lack of warning, but I still think my rational arguments hold. >>> The final argument here is that if we wanted to run >>> *real* mail servers, we'd have "real" connectivity, i.e. >>> colocated hardware. As long as we're going with the much >>> cheaper ISP route, we're at the mercy of the ISP's [often >>> uninformed] whim. Te servers I am talking are dedicated boxes which I (Dynamic Concepts Development Corp) own are are co-located at a datacenter in Denver [with backup servers in other states!]. And yes, I can use VPN's or other means to establish connectivity, but they have their own issues (notably cost althoguh that has come down). It is practically impossible for some one to be "connected to the net" without the use of some type of provider, although I often wish I had a fiber connection with Cogent here at my home office, rather than just at the DataCenter(s)...... From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 2 17:19:30 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: References: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <41379C72.7000702@mdrconsult.com> John Lawson wrote: > So I have a classic naive question: Good that you said "naive". I don't believe in dumb questions. ;) > > Why does there not exist a 'throttling mechanism' at every step, > counting e-mails per minute, and directing messages above that threshold > (and that are 'substantially similar)' to dev\null. Because there are typically only 2 steps where the mail is handled as mail, rather than routed raw packets. (Ignoring redirected mail and such) The user's "outgoing mail server" and the destination domain's mail exchanger are those two steps. Both hosts *should* have controls in place which evaluate and limit what is accepted and what is passed on. Transactions per second per submitting host is available as a control. > That would simply stop bulk mailers cold - of course it's easy to > conceive of these things when one has no concept of how the "system" > works as whole... which I of course most assuredly do not. If any majority percentage of mail servers used the available anti-spam software and safeguards, there wouldn't *be* a spam industry. The root issue is the same as it ever was - uninformed and apathetic administrators. Doc From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 2 17:20:29 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:51 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00a101c4913b$b8137f40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I think think this thread is a waste of time. Having said that, oven, 500dF, 30 mins turns pile into lump. John A. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 2 17:45:48 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT: RE: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> from Patrick/VCM SysOp at "Sep 2, 4 02:08:08 pm" Message-ID: <200409022245.PAA32608@floodgap.com> > Give them a consistent limitation (like > blocking outbound 25) and the customers can wrap their ears around it, and > eventually adapt. DSL Extreme, my upstream, requires you to register your IPs (thus you must have a static address) before you may use them to send outbound mail. I received notification of this when I signed up, easily added my IP through a configuration web page, and received confirmation the next day. So, ISPs can do things correctly when they try. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" ------------------ From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 2 17:35:04 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: iris 3030 on ebay Message-ID: <20040902223504.2884D3CE3@spies.com> 1) Why do the IRISes look that different on their back sides? -- Looks like they were trying to increase airflow. The 24xx's were solid black on the back, with only the upper area above the I/O panels for air exit. Most of the boxes that I remember had the I/O expansion panel on the left like the 3030 in the auction. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 2 17:26:11 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: CD Shredder" (Sep 2, 11:27) References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 2 2004, 11:27, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 23:53 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > What's wrong with just breaking the cd in 2 and tossing it in > > the trash? > > If you've got a large room and a chair on wheels, put the CD on the > floor and then charge at the CD from across the room on the chair. > Great in an office environment where you can take turns. Bonus > points for not only destroying the CD but crashing through the > partition wall at the far end... Completely off topic, but if you're into that sort of thing, you'll enjoy "Things To Do When The Boss Is Out" at http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~pnt1/things/THINGS2.MPE After seeing it, my wife (yeah, the boss, she who is the very serious and relatively senior manager of 21 staff in a certain local government department) started a new craze. THINGS1.MPE has a more Olympic flavour, at least if you can imagine the 100 metre hurdles translated to an office environment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 2 17:55:16 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <16695.24487.506701.534439@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "Sep 2, 4 02:00:07 pm" Message-ID: <200409022255.PAA15898@floodgap.com> > It may be that there exist blacklist operators with more than room > temperature IQ. But the samples I have seen to date are not > encouraging. Myself, I have found ORDB (note: *not* ORBS) to be very fair and have a low false-positive rate, and routinely use it on all incoming mail. Also, I have had relatively good results with Spamhaus SBL. My public E-mail addresses I use for Usenet and post on my web pages are checked against additional, more "aggressive" lists, such as DSBL Multihop and Spamhaus SBL/XBL. So far I have not had any false positives on these either, although I accept the additional risk with these more intolerant services. On the other hand, the signal:noise ratio on those addresses is much, much lower. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. -- Terry Pratchett ---------- From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 2 17:42:50 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I admit, actually shredding the things would be satisfying, however, At 6:27 PM +1200 9/2/04, Don Hills wrote: >The shredder under discussion is overkill for most purposes. There's a much >cheaper model around with two toothed rollers held together by a powerful >spring. The CD passes between the rollers and gets covered with a myriad of >tiny puncture marks on both sides. They're deep enough to puncture the data >layer and too deep to be polished out. Plus the device is almost silent in >use and much faster than the "shredder" model. we too use a similar (or perhaps, the same) device. It is a Bosser 100DX CD Destroyer. A quick Google turned up: Works quite well. Feel free to put the CD through a number of times in different directions. Makes interesting patterns on the disc. John From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 2 18:05:56 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> <00a101c4913b$b8137f40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00ce01c49141$67b937f0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:20 PM Subject: Re: CD Shredder > I think think this thread is a waste of time. > > Having said that, oven, 500dF, 30 mins > turns pile into lump. > > John A. > > Do you have to turn them over at all, and are they low fiber? :) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 2 18:09:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder Message-ID: <200409022309.QAA18019@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I find that a leather punch and a mallet works quite well. The results are good enough that one can still use them as reasonable Frisbees ( not really balanced well ). The oven method really destroys the aerodynamics. Shredding makes them truly worthless. Dwight >From: "John A. Dundas III" > >I admit, actually shredding the things would be satisfying, however, > ---snip--- From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 2 18:47:13 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM Message-ID: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> Whew! I'm in Santa Fe typing this at a wifi hotspot, and now that Ive retrieved my Objects, after protracted years of wangling, I feel safe to post more about the vintage gear at Los Alamos Sales Co (aka "the black hole") in Los Alamos NM. I'll post photos, black hole info, etc when I get home next week, but here's a quick rundown: It's not a vintage computer place; it's LANL/LASL surplus. Some of it dates back to the 1950's, but most is more recent. THere is a wad of Beige Era junk, I step over it, I'd say a cubic cubit (CC). Bazillion IBM typewriters of all sorts, including wide-carriage types. A CC of cards, paper tape (unused) including DEC factory fanfold. Big stack of RCA CDP1802xxx boards mounted in custom rack mount chassis. Full complement of RAM and monitor EPROMs. About 10. I have documentation on the RCA board at home. SOme missing 1802's, BFD. Random piles of some DEC modules. I cannot ID these; two plstic handles on human end, cardedge on the buss end. 80s. RAM boards. Some new-in-boxes (but those could of course be "return for repair" after module swap.) Grey Era IBM card equipment. CDC Cyber terminals. Nukeular Data Corp (that's a joke son, a joke) ND-811 computer(s?), with dual-floppy, and a bunch of other similar vintage junk. The ND811 (I think it is, photos will tell) is all wirewrapped, so likely it's NFG. CCs of HP, TI calculators. We earlier found complete sets of working HP25's with card readers complete with bomb-crater calc software on magstrips (utterly non-classified; it's a standard physics calc). Lots of odd peripherals. Tape drives. Floppies. Tek stuff. Old fiber stuff. IBM manual, schematic and listing sets back to the 360 days (some in the church, access limited). Vacuum column drives. (There is a secret cache of multiple CC's of paper tape gear. Access is extremely limited to this particular room, even finding it is hard... as me personally if you are UP THERE and SERIOUS. No peeing in the pool!) Keep in mind this stuff is scattered ALL OVER THE PLACE on towering shelves in a 50,000 sq ft ex-supermarket. It's out of the weather, but it gets COLD UP THERE in the winter, so things like wirewrap are suspect at best. Some things are in the church (yes one of those denominational praying peripherals) which !@#%% kids busted some windows, so there's a little rain on one edge, but worse, the birds and bats nest in the Nelson bubble lamps and SHIT all over everything, it's a terrible shame. The church is largely off-limits, and Ed has a strange relationship to its contents, and it is extremely hard to extract objects from it. Ask Me How I Know... and I've been going there for 10+ years. There's also some Wang calculators rotting up there, plus a Friden or Wang desktop computer (!) in seemingly-operable condition (I moved key items out of the range of rain and aerial poopers, at least.) I can assure you you won't find an undiscovered cache of working minis up there, but there's a LOT OF MISCELLANY. Pricing is extremely erratic, and if you get him mad, he won't sell it to you. Standard surplus/junkyard rules apply, plus Ed's peculiarities (a relatively minor item I've worked on getting out of the church, for >> 5 years, "oh no, that goes in the museum..."... he has dreams of building a big museum to the bomb up on the hill, if an item becomes museumized it becomes irretreivable. Oh yeah, there's 100K CC's of extraordinary surplus and exotics, plus office furniture, electronic parts, lab-made test gear (increasingly, anything clearly labelled "AEC" becomes museumized), racks, machine tools, granite tool slabs, ad nauseum. (Our kitchen is completely outfit with putty-green lab benchware and glass-fronted, sliding-door shelving, all ball bearing 18-gauge quality). Please drop my name when you go -- it's no ego for me, but Ed knows me and I told him I'd refer people up there, and you're likely to get a better deal. Plan on spending a day there, or better yet, two days. Seriously, I've been going there since 1994 and never get to see it all; it grows monthly and his assistant Frank, an ex-lab nerd and artist, has done an amazing job of organizing and extracting crap. From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 2 18:47:11 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: National Multiplex data cassette tape drive In-Reply-To: <200408251857.LAA10427@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200408251857.LAA10427@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1094062887.3578.2.camel@fiche> > >From: "Tom Jennings" > > > >THe worst part -- the motor had a trimpot in series with it, and that > >was the sole motor speed control -- and! -- tapes written at one speed > >adjustment could not be read at another speed! > > > >Of course I turned the pot, my fault. But just tapping it was enough. It > >was total crap. On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 11:57, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Most of these motors used an internal centrifugal speed > governor. These were designed to work within some span > of input voltage. I would guess that the pot was to drop > the voltage to be within this range. If one was to adjust > the pot, there should be a range of adjustment that the > speed ( with load ) was relatively constant. One would > adjust the pot to be safely within this span. Not this one. I distinctly recall spending HOURS trying to recover my tapes, with a 'scope and listening to the data whine on the built-in speaker. Speed was proportional to the pot setting. Maybe I got an early one, or something, but it was crap. The whole package was of poor quality too. I actually threw it out within a few years. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 18:57:47 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: SMTP References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG><001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020650.CAA29607@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <007d01c49148$a5eb2360$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Der Mouse... just wanted you to know I wasn't attacking you directly. Got home and reread the posts from today and realized it could have come across that way. My apologies. We've talked offlist and I know you're a competent admin so I didn't want to appear to attack you personally. We do, however, steadfastly disagree on the open relay issue, which is perfectly ok :) Regards, Jay West From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 19:07:01 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> A CC of cards, paper tape (unused) including DEC factory fanfold. >>> DEFINITELY interested in the paperr tape iff some is avail! >>> >>> Random piles of some DEC modules. I cannot ID these; two >>> plstic handles on human end, cardedge on the buss end. 80s. >>> RAM boards. Some new-in-boxes (but those could of course be >>> "return for repair" after module swap.) No numbers or other marks on the plastic handles????? >>> CCs of HP, TI calculators. We earlier found complete sets >>> of working HP25's with card readers complete with >>> bomb-crater calc software on magstrips (utterly >>> non-classified; it's a standard physics calc). If a TI-59 is there...... >>> Keep in mind this stuff is scattered ALL OVER THE PLACE on >>> towering shelves in a 50,000 sq ft ex-supermarket. It's out >>> of the weather, but it gets COLD UP THERE in the winter, so >>> things like wirewrap are suspect at best. Don't get lost!!!! >>> I can assure you you won't find an undiscovered cache of >>> working minis up there, but there's a LOT OF MISCELLANY. PDP-8's have been known to show up in VERY strange places >>> Please drop my name when you go -- it's no ego for me, but >>> Ed knows me and I told him I'd refer people up there, and >>> you're likely to get a better deal. Plan on spending a day >>> there, or better yet, two days. >>> Seriously, I've been going there since 1994 and never get >>> to see it all; it grows monthly and his assistant Frank, an >>> ex-lab nerd and artist, has done an amazing job of >>> organizing and extracting crap. Wish I could get there, but I am on the wrong side of the country.... From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 19:09:20 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: classiccmp mailserver issue Message-ID: <008b01c4914a$42f27590$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The classiccmp server coughed last night, apparently around 2am. I didn't notice it till about 8am, and couldn't get to it to work on it till about 10:30am. It would appear that S.M.A.R.T triggered again, claiming the 160gb drive is failing. I'm not sure I believe it, but really don't want to take the chance either. I may well finally have to go shopping for a 160+gb drive. Anyways, wanted to let folks know there was an outtage in that time frame, if you didn't notice it already :) Jay West From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 2 19:45:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: logic rack? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040902204511.00938100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got a call from a scrap place today and I made a quick trip out to see what they had before the hurricane hits (it's due to cross DIRECTLY over the place's location so I don't expect the stuff to be there come Sunday AM since most of the stuff is out in the open). Got some DEC core memory so the trip was worth it. One of the things that I found was a "Logic Rack" made by (somebody) Research & (something). Sorry to be vague about the name but I was in a hell of a rush. Anyway it said that they were a division of XEBEC. The rack was ABOUT 8" or 10" thick and ABOUT 32" wide and ABOUT seven foot tall and had HUNDREDS of small circuit cards that plugged into it. None of the ones that I saw had ICs, just glass diodes, trqnsistors and resistors. The cards are 4" long and 2 3/16" wide with a 16 position CINCH contact on one end. The transistors that I looked at were all date coded 1969 but I saw what looked like it might have been a date on the rack that said 1973. Anybody know what this is? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 2 20:19:20 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: logic rack? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040902204511.00938100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040902211920.00934b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> More info. I brought home three cards from the rack and I've been looking at them. One has 2N297 (see ) NPN Switching transistors dated 1968. Another has 2N1309s dated 1969. The other has three green modules about 1/2" tall x 9/16" wide and 2 1/2" long. They're marked MKC Electronics KC Kansas. They have three connections at one end and two at the other. I suspect that they're relays. I can't see any markings on the diodes. Joe At 08:45 PM 9/2/04 -0400, you wrote: > I got a call from a scrap place today and I made a quick trip out to see >what they had before the hurricane hits (it's due to cross DIRECTLY over >the place's location so I don't expect the stuff to be there come Sunday AM >since most of the stuff is out in the open). Got some DEC core memory so >the trip was worth it. One of the things that I found was a "Logic Rack" >made by (somebody) Research & (something). Sorry to be vague about the name >but I was in a hell of a rush. Anyway it said that they were a division of >XEBEC. The rack was ABOUT 8" or 10" thick and ABOUT 32" wide and ABOUT >seven foot tall and had HUNDREDS of small circuit cards that plugged into >it. None of the ones that I saw had ICs, just glass diodes, trqnsistors and >resistors. The cards are 4" long and 2 3/16" wide with a 16 position CINCH >contact on one end. The transistors that I looked at were all date coded >1969 but I saw what looked like it might have been a date on the rack that >said 1973. Anybody know what this is? > > Joe > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 20:15:56 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: logic rack? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040902204511.00938100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040903011556.90450.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> I have no idea what this is, but it sounds like it's made of discrete-transistor logic, and LOTS of it Would be a cool find just for all those boards, maybe something one could build something really old-school out of (like the guy in Pittsburgh who built a 4-bit discrete-transitor CPU in 1968 out of a lot of scrapped logic boards). It doesn't sound like you snagged it, though. :( --Bill --- "Joe R." wrote: > I got a call from a scrap place today and I made a > quick trip out to see > what they had before the hurricane hits (it's due to > cross DIRECTLY over > the place's location so I don't expect the stuff to > be there come Sunday AM > since most of the stuff is out in the open). Got > some DEC core memory so > the trip was worth it. One of the things that I > found was a "Logic Rack" > made by (somebody) Research & (something). Sorry to > be vague about the name > but I was in a hell of a rush. Anyway it said that > they were a division of > XEBEC. The rack was ABOUT 8" or 10" thick and ABOUT > 32" wide and ABOUT > seven foot tall and had HUNDREDS of small circuit > cards that plugged into > it. None of the ones that I saw had ICs, just glass > diodes, trqnsistors and > resistors. The cards are 4" long and 2 3/16" wide > with a 16 position CINCH > contact on one end. The transistors that I looked > at were all date coded > 1969 but I saw what looked like it might have been a > date on the rack that > said 1973. Anybody know what this is? > > Joe > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 2 20:54:36 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: >>> Patrick/VCM SysOp Wrote::: >>> >>> Think about it: if you were to get on site >>> right now and sign-up for a dial-up account (assuming no >>> outbound filtering), how much email do you think you'd be >>> able to push through that connection before they noticed >>> and turned you off? What is to stop someone from doing that and using the ISP's own SMTP server?!?!?!? >>> >>> And if what you say about optonline.net is true, then I'll >>> also give them an "atta boy" for doing it (but not the way >>> they handled it). That's a very familiar domain in my >>> world as an identified spam source. I'll probably get a >>> benefit I can measure, at least until the bad guys find >>> another ISP who hasn't done it yet. If this is true, then the MAIL did NOT originate from optonline.net at all!!!! It originated from other servers! Yes, optonline subscribers may have been generating the mail requests (deliberately or unknowingly). >>> Well, if I had a dollar for every time we got blamed for >>> another ISP's activities (or that of the client >>> themselves), I wouldn't be writing this from my desk at >>> work. I feel your pain, but it's part of the job. I know, but I don't have to LIKE it....although after 25+ years on the job I have to question why I do it if I don't like it.... >>> > I am not looking to change any opinions. I simply ask >>> > where there is a valid technical benefit of blocking an >>> > outboundt connection based solely on the port number. >>> > If a specific IP is "doing bad things" on a >>> > port, then block that port, Heck even block the whole IP! >>> >>> That's even less effective! >>> [Example Snipped] >>> >>> The use of dynamic addressing also means that the source >>> can move faster than you can block it. In fact, the real, >>> identifiable source is the destination port, not the source >>> IP address, and hence the obvious choice. Blocking the DESTINATION IP is what I was referring to, NOT the (yes Optimum uses dynamic IP) IP of the source. >>> I don't think a large ISP would choose to do this >>> arbitrarily, and more, I don't think a large number of the >>> largest of them would all do it if they weren't convinced >>> that the benefit was worth the inconvenience they are >>> creating to their customers. I lurk on NANOG and learn a >>> lot, and it's clear to me that these guys talk and think >>> through things extensively before they start making >>> systemic changes like that. The business side may forget >>> to tell you, but that's a different problem. A good business reason does become the final answer in a commercial society. Unfortunately my experience is that even when the "business" types come up with a decent solution, it does not mean that they even considered other technical solutions which *could* have been just as efficient from a business standpoint. A current client of mine has been asking my to develop an extremely complex piece of software to meet a business need. They have performed TONS of research and came up with an approach that is POSSIBLE and will be workable, but is a real bear to develop. Just today, I had a 3 hour conversation with the "top-guns" at the client company. During this conversation I questioned why they rules out using a rather obscure capability of the techonology. The general consus was that they had NEVER considered it or even known about it. This is NOT a slam on them, rather it points out the need for analysis that includes BOTH business and technical experts. One alone can NOT do the job. >>> And if the inconvenience of the unauthenticated protocol >>> being "hobbled" forces people to move the authenticated protocols, I'm even >>> more in favor of it, because it's where we need to be. >>> Helping a client get a stable, secure email connection is >>> time well spent in my opinion, for reasons that go beyond >>> the issue of spam. This I will completely agree with! I even take *some* of the responsibility for Not setting everything up with authenticated protocols. Some of the systems have been in place for quite a while [remember when HTTPS et. al. meant SLOW because of the low horsepower machines!] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 2 20:46:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: logic rack? In-Reply-To: <20040903011556.90450.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040902204511.00938100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040902214652.00948cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:15 PM 9/2/04 -0700, Bill wrote: >I have no idea what this is, but it sounds like it's >made of discrete-transistor logic, and LOTS of it >Would be a cool find just for all those boards, >maybe something one could build something really >old-school out of (like the guy in Pittsburgh who >built a 4-bit discrete-transitor CPU in 1968 out of >a lot of scrapped logic boards). It doesn't sound >like you snagged it, though. :( No I didn't :-( I was driving my wife's car and it was WAY too big to fit in the car. However I told them to save it for me. It's heavy enough that I don't think the hurricane will bother it since it laying flat on the ground. I just finished tracing out one of the boards and it appears to be a NINE-input Diode-Transistor AND gate. Three groups of three diodes with each group's outputs tied together at the anodes and then each group tied to the anode of another diode (so now nine diodes driving three diodes). The cathodes of the three diodes are then tied together and connected to the base of a single 2N1309 transsitor. (It's now a nine input NAND at this point). The collector of the first tranistor is connected to the base of the 2nd 2N1309 transistor. It's output is now a NAND function. I haven't looked close at the other board but it looks like four buffers (one transistor driving another one x 4). AKA four Darlington ampliers. The boards look like new. It's a shame that I'll have to leave them there through the hurricane. However I am going to call them and tell them again not to do anything with the rack and to save it for me. Joe > >--Bill > >--- "Joe R." wrote: > >> I got a call from a scrap place today and I made a >> quick trip out to see >> what they had before the hurricane hits (it's due to >> cross DIRECTLY over >> the place's location so I don't expect the stuff to >> be there come Sunday AM >> since most of the stuff is out in the open). Got >> some DEC core memory so >> the trip was worth it. One of the things that I >> found was a "Logic Rack" >> made by (somebody) Research & (something). Sorry to >> be vague about the name >> but I was in a hell of a rush. Anyway it said that >> they were a division of >> XEBEC. The rack was ABOUT 8" or 10" thick and ABOUT >> 32" wide and ABOUT >> seven foot tall and had HUNDREDS of small circuit >> cards that plugged into >> it. None of the ones that I saw had ICs, just glass >> diodes, trqnsistors and >> resistors. The cards are 4" long and 2 3/16" wide >> with a 16 position CINCH >> contact on one end. The transistors that I looked >> at were all date coded >> 1969 but I saw what looked like it might have been a >> date on the rack that >> said 1973. Anybody know what this is? >> >> Joe >> > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 2 20:53:05 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... References: Message-ID: <01bf01c49158$c10e35a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > What is to stop someone from doing that and using the ISP's own SMTP > server?!?!?!? That's not the point. The point is if they are doing it from the ISP's own SMTP server, then the ISP can immediately and with certainty know exactly which of their customers is doing it, and has their contact information, and can deep-six their account (or send out cousin Guido in the middle of the night). A different ISP doesn't have easy access to that information. > This is NOT a slam on them, rather it points out the need for analysis that > includes BOTH business and technical experts. One alone can NOT do the job. I gotta disagree. I've seen many wonderful technologies and projects ruined by suggestions from business (ie. marketing) people. Look at the microsoft product "BoB" *GRIN* Just kidding actually. Sorta. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 2 20:54:07 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: logic rack? Message-ID: <200409030154.SAA18113@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." ---snip--- However I am going to call them and tell them again >not to do anything with the rack and to save it for me. > > Joe Hi Joe It would be best to have all the cards pulled. This would minimize electrolysis if the connectors get wet. It sure sounds like it is a control unit or possibly even a processor unit for something. Dwight From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 2 22:50:05 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Paper tape Message-ID: <20040903035005.859A43C49@spies.com> >>> A CC of cards, paper tape (unused) including DEC factory fanfold. We could use the DEC fanfold for the computer museum PDP-1 restoration efforts. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 2 22:56:01 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: SMTP In-Reply-To: <007d01c49148$a5eb2360$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0409020249.AA00494@ivan.Harhan.ORG><001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020650.CAA29607@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <007d01c49148$a5eb2360$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200409030359.XAA04629@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Der Mouse... just wanted you to know I wasn't attacking you directly. > Got home and reread the posts from today and realized it could have > come across that way. Thank you. Like a lot of geeks, I'm relatively insensitive to such, but also tend to be insensitive when I'm on the other side of the exchange. Or, to put it another way, no offense taken - and none meant. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 2 23:00:31 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200409030404.AAA14753@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Bazillion IBM typewriters of all sorts, including wide-carriage > types. I know someone who is looking for a typewriter that _doesn't_ have a computer built in - one of the sort that's all electromech, nothing more electrically elaborate than motors and solenoids. If these qualify-- any idea what it would take for one to be obtained, fixed if it's not already in working order, and shipped to the interior of British Columbia? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dan at ekoan.com Thu Sep 2 23:04:36 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040902235741.05d13eb0@enigma> I appreciate the fact that Tom has put a lot of time into spelunking into the Black Hole, but for anyone else that might be thinking of visiting, here's a report from a friend of mine (local to Los Alamos) that checked out the place for me: I went to the black hole yesterday and they said they need to see a picture of any computer you might be looking for. These guys really don't know what they have let alone what it is worth. Searching the BH for it would be a major chore. These guys are not very technical; worse, they don't really understand the value of anything. The place is indeed a gold mine, and they price everything as though it were made of gold too ! Cheers, Dan At 07:47 PM 9/2/04, you wrote: >Whew! I'm in Santa Fe typing this at a wifi hotspot, and now that Ive >retrieved my Objects, after protracted years of wangling, I feel safe to >post more about the vintage gear at Los Alamos Sales Co (aka "the black >hole") in Los Alamos NM. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 3 01:53:32 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <41369B60.3020108@jetnet.ab.ca> <00a101c4913b$b8137f40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <413814EC.5040102@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: > I think think this thread is a waste of time. > > Having said that, oven, 500dF, 30 mins > turns pile into lump. Just reading the last shredder post and this one I am sure a NICE CHAINSAW can go through any sized pile of CD's quicker. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 08:16:51 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: S.F. Bay Area -- PDP-11 HW available -- Disks and Tape for 11/44 In-Reply-To: <57542.216.218.236.136.1094002707.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> References: <41331C58.4000301@pacbell.net> <57542.216.218.236.136.1094002707.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> Message-ID: <41386EC3.8060302@pacbell.net> pzachary@sasquatch.com wrote: > thanks for the heads up, snd I'd be glad to trade a micro pdp-11 for the > 44, would you prefer a 11/23 in a ba23 deskside enclosure or a ba11 > rackmount enclosure? > I'll try to get up to rescue the tape drive and perhaps at least the HDAs > from the RA81s. > > Pavl_ Hi, Pavl. Fred van Kempen is apparently interested in the disk drives as well, so you might want to coordinate with him. At least make sure that the loot is still there if you are going to try to beat him to it. :) There is one complication -- I've since agreed to let Al Kossow borrow the CPU for a bit. The power supply on his 11/44 died last weekend, and he has been using it to read DECtapes. I figure I'd help him out until he could get his power supply fixed. I'm not sure at this point how long he will be needing it. Will let you know. --Bill From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 3 08:45:04 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: References: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040903092231.0546e880@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > So I have a classic naive question: > >Why does there not exist a 'throttling mechanism' at every step, counting >e-mails per minute, and directing messages above that threshold (and that >are 'substantially similar)' to dev\null. It's not in the specification. > If an organization has a legitimate and documented reason to send more > than, say 5 or 10 'substantially similar' messages per unit time - then > let them be "licensed" (for want of a better term) and subject to > whatever controls are available.... 3 problems: 1: Mailing lists (like this one) would not fare very well under your plan. The mailing lists that Jay, Sellam, I and many others would have to be licensed & would cost money, and many would just be shut down instead of incurring extra fees on "free" information. 2: Who gets the money? The gubbermint? Bill Gates? 3: How are you going to "license" foreign SMTP servers? We'll end up with what we have now: Honest people getting screwed whilst foreign (and US companies with foreign interests) spamming us from "across the pond" (left or right, your choice) devil-may-care. > That would simply stop bulk mailers cold - of course it's easy to > conceive of these things when one has no concept of how the "system" > works as whole... which I of course most assuredly do not. There have been a *lot* of people who *do* know the system inside & out, who haven't figured out this problem. There are a lot more people who *think* they've figured it out, only to have done it wrong. (TMDA[1], SPF[2], etc.) Then there are a few of us like me who know enough to know that the system cannot be repaired. The entire protocol is flawed for todays society (Remember, the basics for SMTP was written over 20 years ago, and the Internet was a totally different place then. Remember the first word in SMTP: [Simple] -> There's no simple solution for such a simplistic protocol.) and doesn't scale well with today's issues. SMTP needs to be dumped, and a new protocol put in place. A promising (but very young) answer is Dan Bernstein's IM2000. More can be found out about it here: http://www.im2000.org./ This protocol puts the storage burden on the sender, and eliminates bounces as the sender can easily check if the mail had ever been received by the intended party. It also makes it much easier to track the "bad guys" and block them from your system until they clean up their act. Hey, I've resisted this flamewar for quite a while -- Now it's time for me to get out the naptha, vegetable oil, asbestos suit & Marshmallows!!! ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] TMDA isn't "technically" flawed as a *personal* mail watchdog *when set up right*, but many old-timers do get upset about having to confirm emails they know aren't spam, and most people don't set it up correctly. It also has no business as a site-wide "solution" as it cannot handle bounces/doublebounces & whatnot. [2] SPF *is* flawed. DomainKeys is a better implementation, but as my mother always used to say, "It's just perfume on a pig." SMTP is a pig, and should become porkchops. :-O -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 3 08:45:52 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <200409022309.QAA18019@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409022309.QAA18019@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <9156a7e84c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> How about this for a CD destroyer - an old CDROM drive. Remove the control board and cut all the tracks to the spindle motor controller's input pins and the tray/lasersled motor controller's inputs. Remove the big controller chips for good measure. Now remove the laser module and gut it. Cut off a piece of coat-hanger wire (or similar) and sharpen it. Fit the wire into the laser module, check the height (put an AOL CD in the tray) and stick it in with 5-minute epoxy. Add a microcontroller to the mix - work out how the mechanism works, what each switch does, etc. Write a bit of code to eject the tray when the eject button is pushed and run a destruction cycle when the play button is pushed and the tray is closed. Destruction head scans over the disc a few times, data layer gets reduced to slivers of plastic. What you should be left with is a plastic disc. Frisbee! Yes, I am going to do this. There's a dead Samsung drive on my desk just begging to be converted into something mildly useful. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... WindowError:009 Horrible bug encountered. God knows what happened. From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 09:14:42 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: rodent nests Message-ID: <20040903141442.49350.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> So the good news is I've stumbled upon a Frankin Ace 1000 and a TRS-80 Model I with EI unit, 2 machines which I've been looking to acquire. Better yet, both are FREE! The bad news: some sort of rodent(s) decided that the shells would make nice homes and built nests in them. I popped open tha Ace, haven't had the heart to check out the inside of the EI yet. Most of what was in the Ace was bedding and shells from eaten nuts. These came out easy enough. All wiring seems to be intact and uneaten (the back of the case did have its card slots widened by rodent teeth however -- not a big deal). There wasn't really any droppings as I imagined there would be, but there is a brown film that is on much of the motherboard. What is this (urine, oils from their fur, some other sort of bodily excretion) and is there anyway to clean these systems and try to recover them? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Sep 3 09:21:54 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: LTC Spec question Message-ID: W/out having the docs to hand, I would like to know the actual electrical specification for the LTC line as implemented in LSI-11 -type systems... what is the backplane (and hence the CPU, etc) expecting? Waveform type? Freq range? Levels? If pulses, TTL? CMOS? Duty cycle? Rep rate? I need to simulate the incoming LTC signal for a system that will not be mains powered.... in the older 11/xx systems, this was derived from one of the windings of the power supply transformer, then made into line-freq-rate pulses by the using module. I'm planning on using a small naptha-burning steam engine driving a modified Wimshurst static generator, and then using a calibrated spark-gap with an RF pick-off. If I adjust the mechanical governor very precisely, and calibrate the gap length based on humidity and barometric pressure, it should be possible to get reasonably stable 50/60 Htz signals... Cheers John PS: Please ignore the silly bits. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 09:47:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: rodent nests In-Reply-To: <20040903141442.49350.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> What is this (urine, oils from their fur, some other sort >>> of bodily excretion) and is there anyway to clean these >>> systems and try to recover them? Probably some combination of all of the above! The choice of cleaning material will depend on the areas / surfaces / materials you are cleaning. Be sure to do a good job (especially on circuit boards) as this film is often conductive. I have chased a number of very strange and subtle problems with restored machines to some of this type of "gunk" between the pins of IC's or crossing adjavent lands on a PCB (if there is no solder mask). Good Luck! From kth at srv.net Fri Sep 3 10:15:39 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: References: <004001c49130$f24df6f0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <41388A9B.8050101@srv.net> John Lawson wrote: > > > So I have a classic naive question: > > Why does there not exist a 'throttling mechanism' at every step, > counting e-mails per minute, and directing messages above that > threshold (and that are 'substantially similar)' to dev\null. > Have you ever forwarded a 'joke' to multiple people? That action would trigger both your 'throttling mechanism' and your 'substantially similar' mechanism. So, what you are proposing is the elimination of 'joke' email. ...which may not be a bad thing, having received a lot of bad ones... > If an organization has a legitimate and documented reason to send > more than, say 5 or 10 'substantially similar' messages per unit time > - then let them be "licensed" (for want of a better term) and subject > to whatever controls are available.... > > That would simply stop bulk mailers cold - of course it's easy to > conceive of these things when one has no concept of how the "system" > works as whole... which I of course most assuredly do not. > Haven't you wondered about the random garbage words attached to many spam messages? That is to make tests such as this harder. All you would do with a measure like this is to cause more random garbage being attached to spam. Spammers are not sitting on their thumbs ignoring all new measures being implemented. From allain at panix.com Fri Sep 3 10:03:47 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <008601c491c7$371bba60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. A wire must be shorted out somewhere. John A. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 10:16:06 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: <41388A9B.8050101@srv.net> Message-ID: >>> Haven't you wondered about the random garbage words >>> attached to many spam messages? That is to make tests such >>> as this harder. >>> You are the one being na?ve. The words you are referring to are not random garbage, as many people believe. They are secret messages being passed between the alien races that control our planet and the cults who follow them. Even the pictures (which some people consider porn) contain these messages embedded in the pixels. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 3 10:20:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409031020.26528.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 September 2004 10:16, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Haven't you wondered about the random garbage words > >>> attached to many spam messages? That is to make tests such > >>> as this harder. > > You are the one being na?ve. The words you are referring to are not > random garbage, as many people believe. They are secret messages > being passed between the alien races that control our planet and the > cults who follow them. Even the pictures (which some people consider > porn) contain these messages embedded in the pixels. HAHA! If I were a coffee drinker, my keyboard would be doused by now. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 3 10:41:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <008601c491c7$371bba60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:03 AM 9/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists >and up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software >on CDs. Considering the number of AOL disks flaoting around out there I consider that a GOOD thing! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 3 10:43:56 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: OT:Relays: Dumb question References: <41388A9B.8050101@srv.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040903114356.0092e9a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:16 AM 9/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>> Haven't you wondered about the random garbage words >>>> attached to many spam messages? That is to make tests such >>>> as this harder. >>>> > >You are the one being na?ve. The words you are referring to are not random >garbage, as many people believe. They are secret messages being passed >between the alien races that control our planet and the cults who follow >them. Even the pictures (which some people consider porn) contain these >messages embedded in the pixels. Oh good, is that all it is? I thought it was secret message from devil worshippers that you had to play backwards to understand. At least that what the Christian fanatics claim. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 10:50:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: <413665E4.2040702@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Bob Shannon wrote: > Smooth plastic on early prototypes indicates 'soft mould' plastic, > essentially an early prototype process for plastic parts, prior to > committing to an expensive mould that is very difficult to alter for > last-minute changes. So is the texturing on the final mold there for texturing or as a by-product of the molding process? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 10:58:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now here is something I like the looks of. At only $130, I'm really > tempted to pick one up, it's perfect for destroying old data CD's. I > thought others here might be interested in as well. > > http://www.primera.com/ds360_disc_shredder.html Fun! Any old heavy duty (and I mean heavy duty, not the ones you get at the local office supply store) will do the same thing. I'm not sure if you want anything that big in your office or hack lair, but it sure is fun to put stuff other than paper in those things and watch. (Small pets and children not recommended.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 11:22:01 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> So is the texturing on the final mold there for texturing >>> or as a by-product of the molding process? >>> Usually for the following reasons: Texturing looks better (e.g. does not show smudges), but costs more. The benefit is word the cost for final builds but not for prototypes or special runs. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 3 11:13:57 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: Cleaning up yellowed/grubby plastic? References: <413665E4.2040702@tiac.net> Message-ID: <16696.38981.106981.957669@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Bob Shannon wrote: >> Smooth plastic on early prototypes indicates 'soft mould' plastic, >> essentially an early prototype process for plastic parts, prior to >> committing to an expensive mould that is very difficult to alter >> for last-minute changes. Vintage> So is the texturing on the final mold there for texturing or Vintage> as a by-product of the molding process? For texturing. The mold process is pretty precise -- if the designers wanted smooth plastic, you would have seen smooth plastic. It's not like sand-casting of cast iron... paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 11:22:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Fun! Any old heavy duty (and I mean heavy duty, not the >>> ones you get at the local office supply store) will do the >>> same thing. I'm not sure if you want anything that big in >>> your office or hack lair, but it sure is fun to put stuff >>> other than paper in those things and watch. >>> >>> (Small pets and children not recommended.) >>> Lets not discuss the merits of ex-spouses, ex-employeers/employees, etc either..... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 11:29:35 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >>> >So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and >>> up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. >>> >>> Considering the number of AOL disks flaoting around out >>> there I consider that a GOOD thing! >>> While AOL CD's are (currently) an extreme case. Think back to all of the items that were once "all too common junk" and are now lost entirely. Did any of us ever think the stuff would become rare? From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 11:37:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Kind of dangerous, but what fun is a safe shredder. Best quote of the week :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 3 11:48:02 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > While AOL CD's are (currently) an extreme case. Think back to all of the > items that were once "all too common junk" and are now lost entirely. Did > any of us ever think the stuff would become rare? But early AOL stuff does have collectability and value. I think I finally sold off all of mine (except for my 2 sweatshirts - they seem pretty indestructable. I still wear them). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 12:04:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> >So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and > >>> up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. > >>> > >>> Considering the number of AOL disks flaoting around out > >>> there I consider that a GOOD thing! > >>> > > While AOL CD's are (currently) an extreme case. Think back to all of the > items that were once "all too common junk" and are now lost entirely. Did > any of us ever think the stuff would become rare? This is the whole reason why I began collecting computers (even when they were still "current"). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From transit at lerctr.org Fri Sep 3 12:52:31 2004 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:52 2005 Subject: AOL disks In-Reply-To: <200409031700.i83H033f011040@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409031700.i83H033f011040@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > >>>>> So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and >>>> up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. >>>> >>>> Considering the number of AOL disks flaoting around out >>>> there I consider that a GOOD thing! >>>> > > While AOL CD's are (currently) an extreme case. Think back to all of the > items that were once "all too common junk" and are now lost entirely. Did > any of us ever think the stuff would become rare? > I remember when AOL disks were floppies. At least you'd get a free supply.... Hmmm....I remember seeing an AOL disk for an *Apple II* around here, wonder if it would still work.... From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 3 13:06:49 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: AOL disks In-Reply-To: References: <200409031700.i83H033f011040@huey.classiccmp.org> <200409031700.i83H033f011040@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040903140505.00afe670@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) may have mentioned these words: >I remember when AOL disks were floppies. At least you'd get a free supply.... Of crappy floppies... :-O At least they were OK for xferring drivers & whatnot between machines, if you didn't need to keep the data long. >Hmmm....I remember seeing an AOL disk for an *Apple II* around here, >wonder if it would still work.... I'd bet it would work great *on ePay*... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 3 14:51:06 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:11:50 PDT." <200409011911500925.3FDF2C15@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200409031951.i83Jp6k6022469@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Bruce Lane" wrote: > > Has anyone on the list had any contact with this person or his company? I have bought some things from them and found them to reputable and their prices (for what I bought) to be reasonable. To be honest, I think you're asking a lot of people to "understand" when you block their email. (and I've started ISP's and run DNS and e-mail on the Internet since the mid '80's, so I've been around-the-block a few times, to make a bad pun :-). It's your right to block, but it's concidered bad form. -brad From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Sep 3 14:51:59 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... References: Message-ID: <000e01c491ef$79f4bcb0$f702a20c@berkeley.evocative.com> > >>> Well, if I had a dollar for every time we got blamed for > >>> another ISP's activities (or that of the client > >>> themselves), I wouldn't be writing this from my desk at > >>> work. I feel your pain, but it's part of the job. > > I know, but I don't have to LIKE it....although after 25+ years on the job I > have to question why I do it if I don't like it.... Same for me, and if you're like me, it's the big paychecks, supermodels, expensive cars, and sacks of fan mail that keep it alive and make it all worth it. ;-) Seriously, I love it. My customers don't know internet stuff, but they know their business, and my business gives me a unique opportunity to participate in their business and help them run it, and I learn something from them every day; hopefully I'm returning the favor. > This is NOT a slam on them, rather it points out the need for analysis that > includes BOTH business and technical experts. One alone can NOT do the job. Absolutely. For myself, I've also learned a lot about finance (by necessity). I trust myself more to do financial analysis than I trust my accountant to do a technical analysis. :-) --Patrick From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 15:15:52 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <200409031951.i83Jp6k6022469@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> It's your right to block, but it's concidered bad form. >>> We are sorry.... Your message has been blocked by those who do not agree with your point of view.... Please don't try again..... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 15:20:33 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: SMTP Relays... In-Reply-To: <000e01c491ef$79f4bcb0$f702a20c@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: >>> Same for me, and if you're like me, it's the: >>> big paychecks, Not as many as a few years ago and Uncle Sam gets quite a byte out of them, but still not too bad... >>> supermodels, Choose one of the following: 1) Where Where Where????? or 2) Just don't tell my wife. >>> expensive cars, 2000 Saturn SC2 - Althoguh New York insurance rates DO make it expensive! >>>and sacks of fan mail Doe this message count? My InBox runnig over...Especially those messages offering to introduce me to supermodels and provide a chemically enhanced body to enjor them with. It will be grat once I get the $1,000,000 from that Nigerian exile.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 3 15:16:11 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040903131527.K16112@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Fun! Any old heavy duty (and I mean heavy duty, not the > >>> ones you get at the local office supply store) will do the > >>> same thing. I'm not sure if you want anything that big in > >>> your office or hack lair, but it sure is fun to put stuff > >>> other than paper in those things and watch. > >>> (Small pets and children not recommended.) > Lets not discuss the merits of ex-spouses, ex-employeers/employees, etc > either..... Where can you get one adequate to handle cow- orkers? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 3 15:16:04 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > (Small pets and children not recommended.) Keep business suits, ties, disgruntled ex-girlfriends, ex-spouses, et cetera well away too. Especially the ex-somethings, many of them have a software glitch that causes them to go into a rampage, destroying anything and everything, when told "Let's just be friends, ok?". No-one has - as yet - managed to find a firmware patch to alleviate this bug. :) [ Kevlar body armour and asbestos flameproof suit ON ] Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... PARENT: Don't you understand English? HONEST CHILD: No, not fully! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 3 15:30:36 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> > So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists > and up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software > on CDs. If you were to build a device to scan a stationary piece of CD, rather than trying to spin it, how much of the data could be recovered from a disk with a hole drilled through it, or broken in half? From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Sep 2 16:13:02 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: rodent nests In-Reply-To: <20040903141442.49350.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040903141442.49350.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41378CDE.4010605@theriver.com> I had the same problem a few months ago. There was a long thread on this list under "mouse doody". Every method known to mankind that used to remove rodent excretia from motherboards and computers was discussed. A quick google under the term "mouse doody" should point you in the right direction. Cheers, Tom Rich Bramante wrote: > So the good news is I've stumbled upon a Frankin Ace 1000 and a TRS-80 Model I > with EI unit, 2 machines which I've been looking to acquire. Better yet, both > are FREE! > > The bad news: some sort of rodent(s) decided that the shells would make nice > homes and built nests in them. I popped open tha Ace, haven't had the heart to > check out the inside of the EI yet. Most of what was in the Ace was bedding > and shells from eaten nuts. These came out easy enough. All wiring seems to > be intact and uneaten (the back of the case did have its card slots widened by > rodent teeth however -- not a big deal). There wasn't really any droppings as > I imagined there would be, but there is a brown film that is on much of the > motherboard. What is this (urine, oils from their fur, some other sort of > bodily excretion) and is there anyway to clean these systems and try to recover > them? > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 15:47:47 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> If you were to build a device to scan a stationary piece of >>> CD, rather than trying to spin it, how much of the data >>> could be recovered from a disk with a hole drilled through >>> it, or broken in half? >>> Quite a large percentage, depending on the size and location of the hole. While the security of destroyed CD's typically refers to destroyed CD-R/CD-RW protecting information that was stored on a pressed CD is MUCH more difficult. In this case burning to slag is about the only approved technique. ....somewhere here I have the documents for destruction of data at various security levels, actually gets quite complex to "do it the right way".... From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 3 15:42:54 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16696.55118.87979.195549@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: >> So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and up to >> 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. Fred> If you were to build a device to scan a stationary piece of CD, Fred> rather than trying to spin it, how much of the data could be Fred> recovered from a disk with a hole drilled through it, or broken Fred> in half? Broken in half -- probably all of it, because the crack is like a scratch and the ECC handles that. Hole -- possibly all of it, if the hole isn't too large. paul From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 3 17:06:03 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4138EACB.7010307@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 29 Aug 2004, Wayne Talbot wrote: > > >>Looking for DOS command-line e-mail client >> >>Have you tried pegasus mail? > > > Is it command line? > > So far I've searched far and wide and pursued half a dozen well-meaning > but erroneous suggestions for various packages and I just don't think such > an application exists. > Does it have to be DOS? There are any number of command-line Linux mail clients. Maybe you could port one across. The thing is, by the time that Internet mail was becoming popular, DOS was already as good as dead. Time to let it go gently into the night, I think. Gordon. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Sep 3 17:37:10 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Does the name 'Ed Kelleher' ring any bells? In-Reply-To: <00ee01c49114$2afe5160$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <001701c490a1$631d1040$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200409020458.VAA13888@floodgap.com> <16695.9270.464177.847799@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00ee01c49114$2afe5160$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On 03/09/2004, at 3:42 AM, Jay West wrote: >> Indeed. But only fools react to open relays by blacklisting an entire >> ISP domain, as (I think) ORBS has done. > > Blocking a whole domain is silly, to me at least from the ISP > prospective. I > defend an end client's right to do so though. ISTR that at one stage all of .au was blacklisted by one of the Blacklisting services. My ISP blocks outgoing port 25 connections but my e-mail provider (not my ISP but a very nice VMS cluster) is now accessible on another (secured) port. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 18:23:48 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: DECmate III on ebay Message-ID: "DECmate III w/APU 2nd processor option board" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5119578554 /s From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 18:25:02 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <16696.55118.87979.195549@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> <16696.55118.87979.195549@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <7B2EB2A8-FE00-11D8-B107-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 3, 2004, at 1:42 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: > >>> So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists and up to >>> 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software on CDs. > > Fred> If you were to build a device to scan a stationary piece of CD, > Fred> rather than trying to spin it, how much of the data could be > Fred> recovered from a disk with a hole drilled through it, or broken > Fred> in half? > > Broken in half -- probably all of it, because the crack is like a > scratch and the ECC handles that. Hole -- possibly all of it, if the > hole isn't too large. > > paul > I think this question assumes you only have half of the cd broken in half. If I were using that method I would certainly dispose of 1/2 of the parts in different places. For a second there I thought there was a yammer coming on about even considering the destruction of data on cd. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 3 18:13:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: LTC Spec question In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Sep 3, 4 10:21:54 am Message-ID: > > > W/out having the docs to hand, I would like to know the actual > electrical specification for the LTC line as implemented in LSI-11 -type > systems... what is the backplane (and hence the CPU, etc) expecting? I've looked at the PSU schemmatics for my MINC, which should be close enough... > > Waveform type? Freq range? Levels? If pulses, TTL? CMOS? Duty cycle? Rep > rate? Waveform : Square wave Frequency : Mains frequency (50Hz or 60Hz), duty cycle doesn't seem to matter. Open collector driver (pulled up in the bus terminator to +5V) > > I need to simulate the incoming LTC signal for a system that will not be > mains powered.... in the older 11/xx systems, this was derived from one of > the windings of the power supply transformer, then made into > line-freq-rate pulses by the using module. That's how it's done in the MINC (and in the LSI11/03 prints I looked at which show the H780 PSU). The Minc uses one section of a 339 comparator chip connected to the secondary of a mains transformer through a suitable resistor netowrk. > > > I'm planning on using a small naptha-burning steam engine driving a > modified Wimshurst static generator, and then using a calibrated spark-gap I always prefered the catostatic. [OK, a joke. I have a book on making electrostatic generators and one of them is called the catostatic. As you may have guessed by now, this involves stroking your cat and collecting the accumulated charge in a Leyden jar... Knowing my cat, he'd probably get rather fed up with the whole idea...] -tony From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 3 18:40:25 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <7B2EB2A8-FE00-11D8-B107-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >>> I think this question assumes you only have half of the cd >>> broken in half. >>> Then probably about half of the data.... >>> If I were using that method I would certainly dispose of >>> 1/2 of the parts in different places. On one hand that makes it harder for a single person to gett all of the data, but increases the odds of someone getting half of the data.... >>> For a second there I thought there was a yammer coming on >>> about even considering the destruction of data on cd. >>> To repeat a famous quote "I Yam what I Yam...And that's all folks"...Oops mixed two quotes.... From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Sep 3 18:47:24 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: LTC Spec question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Tony... I'm sure your catostatic generator will soon be pur^H^H^H^H^H no, damn it, even I can't force myself to actually type a pun *that* bad... sorry. Anyway, to further clarify - this particular 11/73 is destined for (automotive) mobile roles, and therefore has had it's PSU replaced w/one that was made quite recently, albeit for computers a few generations more evolved than the DEC Iron. Also it is desired to be able to run the LTC at 100 Htz as well. I am tasked with simulating the LTC signal, a simple matter, but I haven't the actual electrical spec for this circuit, thus my question. There will be no mains reference available. Thanks for the fact that the LTC line is pulled up to 5V at the terminator. That's a big chunk of the interface question out of the way... Cheers Nikola Felina From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Sep 3 19:24:40 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: AOL disks Message-ID: <1c1.1dc69030.2e6a6548@aol.com> >I remember when AOL disks were floppies. At least you'd get a free supply.... Of crappy floppies... :-O At least they were OK for xferring drivers & whatnot between machines, if you didn't need to keep the data long. >Hmmm....I remember seeing an AOL disk for an *Apple II* around here, >wonder if it would still work.... I'd bet it would work great *on ePay*... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" heh, I still got my Apple // AOL access kit. It would not work with my Laser 128. I had to borrow a friend's //c to connect. Dealing with those cursed shrinkit archives was not easy with a single floppy drive either. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 3 19:34:31 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30129304-FE0A-11D8-9322-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> How effective would it be to drive your car back and forth over the CD in question? :^) From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Sep 3 19:35:28 2004 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: AOL disks - Q-Link Commodore In-Reply-To: References: <200409031700.i83H033f011040@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903203442.0213f5c0@pop-server> At 01:52 PM 9/3/2004, you wrote: >Hmmm....I remember seeing an AOL disk for an *Apple II* around here, >wonder if it would still work.... I have disks for when it was Q-Link for Commodore. ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich@tampabay.rr.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 19:39:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: AOL disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Hmmm....I remember seeing an AOL disk for an *Apple II* around here, > wonder if it would still work.... AOL for the Apple ][ used to be called AppleLink. In fact, AppleLink pre-dates AOL by a couple years. QuantumLink, as far as I know, was the first service offered by what became AOL. That started out as a way for people to try out software before they bought it. QL would actually crack the protection on games and such and then put them up for download. I'm not sure how they controlled copies once they were downloaded. Doug Coward was once hired on at QL as a cracker but didn't see any future in the company and so he moved on. Rumor has it he kicks himself every day he wakes up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 3 19:43:30 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903194107.047e68c8@pc> At 10:41 AM 9/3/2004, Joe R. wrote: > Considering the number of AOL disks flaoting around out there I consider >that a GOOD thing! Given the rest of my packrat tendencies this shouldn't be a surprise, but I've simply saved all my dead CD-Rs and AOL etc. non-useful CDs. I have boxes and boxes. I thought of mixing it with monofilament to make a huge wind-chime art structure out in the woods. A tree full of CDs! The sun would kill the CD-Rs quickly, and who cares about the pressed CDs. - John From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 3 19:45:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Looking for a DOS command-line e-mail client In-Reply-To: <4138EACB.7010307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > The thing is, by the time that Internet mail was becoming popular, DOS > was already as good as dead. Time to let it go gently into the night, I > think. The last I checked DOS is still quite alive and well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 3 20:01:51 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> Back in March 2001 I posted about a cache of 20,046 pages of scanned docs I received from someone on the net. See the TOC below, followed by his explanation of how he did it. It consumed several CD-Rs, compressed. I now have a DVD burner as well, so I'd be glad to make copies on new or old media. (It is actually all available on a hidden web page that I disclose if someone sends me a pointed email, but I'd hate to stress my little T-1.) Anyone care to upgrade it to OCR'd PDF or whatever would be considered a next-best method of preservation and search-ability? I know it's possible with a handful of Linux, but my to-do list is already too long. - John I've made contact with a guy who's scanned 20,046 pages of the docs listed below, at 300 to 400 DPI. He first told me about the UCSD p-System docs he'd scanned. Below the list is his description of the process he followed. I'm planning to get a copy of what he has and burn it to CD-R. Does anyone else have an interest in these docs, or have any ideas about distribution without massive copyright violation? - John 6502 MOS 6502 datasheet 6502 Assembly Language Subroutines (Leventhal) AMD AMD 29000 Memory Design Handbook Am29027 Arithmetic Accelerator Am29C327 Floating Point Processor Data General C Language Reference Manual GATE User's Manual AOS/VS Internals Manual AOS/VS Programmer's Manual, volume 1 AOS/VS System Calls Dictionary CEO User's Manual Eclipse 32-bit Principles of Operation Eclipse 32-bit System Functional Characteristics Fortran-77 Environment Manual Fortran-77 Reference Manual Fairchild Clipper User's Manual IDT RISC System Programmer's Guide R3000 Assembly Language Programmer's Guide R3000 Hardware User Manuals R3000 Language Programmer's Guide High-speed CMOS databook Motorola 68000 Family Reference 68020 User's Manual 68851 User's Manual 88100 User's Manual 88200 User's Manual Linear Interface Integrated Circuits NCR 53C90A/B Advanced SCSI Controller (2 different manuals) 53C94/5/6 databook 53CF94/96-2 Fast SCSI Controller Disk Array Controller Firmware Disk Array Controller Hardware Disk Array Controller Software Floppy Disk Controller (SCSI-to-FD) National Semiconductor NS32532 Datasheet Series 32000 Programmer's Reference Manual DP8490 Enhanced Asynchronous SCSI Interface NS32CG16 Programmer's Reference Supplement Graphics Handbook Series 32000 Databook DRAM Management databook Embedded Controller Databook Ohio Scientific C4P User's Manual (2 different manuals) 65V Programmer's manual Schematics for: 502 CPU board 505 CPU board 527 24K memory board 540 Video board 542 Polled Keyboard Pinnacle Systems 2 User's manuals for their 68k machine (My P-system machine) P-system manuals IV.12 Operating System Reference Program Development Reference Application Development Guide Fortran 77 Reference Assembler Reference Weitek WTL4167 Floating-Point Coprocessor datasheet Most of these are from about 1988 to 1992, with the exception of the OSI documentation, of course, which is from 1979. --- > What sort of process did you follow? What sort of devices? As far as the process, I scanned a manual in and checked to make sure all the pages were there. If they weren't, I'd scan the pages that didn't make it, and go through all the pages again. I'll admit this is a little anal, but better safe than sorry. (When you're using a lot of shell scripts, you never know if you accidently deleted a page with an "mv" command.) When all the pages where there, I'd go through the manual one more time to check for general quality (no folded corners, no torn pages, etc.) If all was good, the manual would be moved to the directory that would be the root directory of my CD-ROM. That's pretty much it. The big manuals of more than 1000 pages really sucked, because I'd generally have to make 3 or more passes to get those completely correct. If I was going to do it again, I'd probably break the larger manuals into smaller chunks to avoid this problem. One thing that made the whole process a lot easier was the netpbm utilities. I wrote a script to convert the manuals from ~2500x3300 TIFs to ~500x600 GIFs. My machine takes about 2 seconds to process a 300-400 DPI TIF, but only a fraction of a second for a 75 DPI GIF. I'd run my script, then do something else for a while. When it was done, I could flip through the GIFs with GQview and inspect about 2-4 pages per second. That saved a lot of time. I assume that, by "devices", you mean what type of scanners I used. I started with an HP 6350cse (with ADF) that I bought for this very purpose. However, having never owned a scanner before, I was a little disappointed with how slow the "fast" scanners are. Fortunately, imaging is an integral part of the software my company sells and, as luck would have it, we were demoing a new scanner from Fujitsu. This thing literally does 60 pages/min at 300 dpi - *both* sides. It's about half that fast at 400 dpi, which I had to use for the IC databooks to get the fine print. Needless to say, I did most of my scanning on that. By the way, to date, I've processed 20046 pages. I'm kinda burned out, though, so it'll be a while before I do any more. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 3 20:13:44 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> Message-ID: <200409040116.VAA19532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (It is actually all available on a hidden web page that I disclose if > someone sends me a pointed email, but I'd hate to stress my little > T-1.) I'd love to get my paws on this stuff; if anyone puts it up somewhere that can survive more of us hitting it, please tell? (Unfortunately I doubt I have the bandwidth to be a redistribution point myself - I'm on a DSL line, and what I gather is a relatively slow one, or I'd ask for the location and then fan it out a bit from here.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Sep 3 20:18:22 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Someone pays $399 for IBM Dos 1.0 Message-ID: <001d01c4921d$1342d370$36406b43@66067007> Here's the url http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62054&item=5119316334 Uses mainecomputermuseum ? From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Sep 3 20:33:00 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Someone pays $399 for IBM Dos 1.0 References: <001d01c4921d$1342d370$36406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000701c4921f$209147d0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> oh my... and I have tried to counsel him...... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk@classiccmp" Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 6:18 PM Subject: Someone pays $399 for IBM Dos 1.0 > Here's the url > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62054&item=5119316334 > Uses mainecomputermuseum ? > > From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Sep 3 20:48:27 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: HP2100A available (Bristol, UK) References: Message-ID: <006b01c49221$45b3e4d0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> these are all the same picture of the flat of the core board.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francis Bell" To: ; "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:05 PM Subject: HP2100A available (Bristol, UK) > Free to the first person who can collect it: > > I have an HP 2100A looking for a new home; this system doesn't come with > any peripherals, it's just the system unit. > > I have no idea what the modules are in this system, but at least one of > them > appears to be a magnetic core store. I've never switched this system on, > so I don't know what condition it is in - I'd certainly recommend > testing > the power supply offline before use. Since I have no software for this, > it's most likely to be useful to someone who has the software and > peripherals > already. > > The date shown on the chips would point to a manufacture date arond > 1975. > This system in in Bristol UK, it's heavy and fragile and therefore I > would > prefer not to ship it. Priority will be given to anyone who can > collect, but > if there are none such then I am prepared to ship it provided the taker > covers my packaging and > shipping costs plus any import duties. > > Some photos are available at: > > http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg core memory module > http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg modules top view > http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg inside system > http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg front panel > > If you are interested, pleae send an email to > > hp2100 (at) hexamon.org > > F > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 3 21:10:54 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> Message-ID: <200409032110.55041.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 03 September 2004 20:01, John Foust wrote: > Back in March 2001 I posted about a cache of 20,046 pages > of scanned docs I received from someone on the net. > See the TOC below, followed by his explanation of how > he did it. > > It consumed several CD-Rs, compressed. I now have a DVD burner > as well, so I'd be glad to make copies on new or old media. > (It is actually all available on a hidden web page that > I disclose if someone sends me a pointed email, but I'd > hate to stress my little T-1.) Hey John, I'd be happy to put up a mirror of it for you on computer-refuge.org. Let me know if you want me to do that for you. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 3 21:12:23 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Old DOS games... Message-ID: ...are spoken for. Thanks for the responses! Also, did I mention I have a little DEC HiNote 433 laptop (with the optional floppy drive wedge-o-cheese)? I think that is in the ultracheap pile. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Sep 3 21:16:11 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Old DOS games... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040904021611.GC15779@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 10:12:23PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > ...are spoken for. Thanks for the responses! > > Also, did I mention I have a little DEC HiNote 433 laptop (with the > optional floppy drive wedge-o-cheese)? I think that is in the ultracheap > pile. How ultra-cheap? (I have one minus PSU, HDD frame...) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Sep-2004 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.1 F (-52.3 C) Windchill -102.2 F (-74.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16 kts Grid 005 Barometer 677 mb (10740 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 3 21:21:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> Message-ID: <004001c49225$d834ca00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John, I also would be happy to host, or at least mirror, the archive you speak of on the classiccmp server. I know there's plenty of space. Regards, Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:01 PM Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > Back in March 2001 I posted about a cache of 20,046 pages > of scanned docs I received from someone on the net. > See the TOC below, followed by his explanation of how > he did it. > > It consumed several CD-Rs, compressed. I now have a DVD burner > as well, so I'd be glad to make copies on new or old media. > (It is actually all available on a hidden web page that > I disclose if someone sends me a pointed email, but I'd > hate to stress my little T-1.) > > Anyone care to upgrade it to OCR'd PDF or whatever would be > considered a next-best method of preservation and search-ability? > I know it's possible with a handful of Linux, but my to-do list > is already too long. > > - John > > I've made contact with a guy who's scanned 20,046 pages of the > docs listed below, at 300 to 400 DPI. He first told me about the > UCSD p-System docs he'd scanned. Below the list is his description > of the process he followed. > > I'm planning to get a copy of what he has and burn it to CD-R. > Does anyone else have an interest in these docs, or have any > ideas about distribution without massive copyright violation? > > - John > > 6502 > MOS 6502 datasheet > 6502 Assembly Language Subroutines (Leventhal) > > AMD > AMD 29000 Memory Design Handbook > Am29027 Arithmetic Accelerator > Am29C327 Floating Point Processor > > Data General > C Language Reference Manual > GATE User's Manual > AOS/VS Internals Manual > AOS/VS Programmer's Manual, volume 1 > AOS/VS System Calls Dictionary > CEO User's Manual > Eclipse 32-bit Principles of Operation > Eclipse 32-bit System Functional Characteristics > Fortran-77 Environment Manual > Fortran-77 Reference Manual > > Fairchild > Clipper User's Manual > > IDT > RISC System Programmer's Guide > R3000 Assembly Language Programmer's Guide > R3000 Hardware User Manuals > R3000 Language Programmer's Guide > High-speed CMOS databook > > Motorola > 68000 Family Reference > 68020 User's Manual > 68851 User's Manual > 88100 User's Manual > 88200 User's Manual > Linear Interface Integrated Circuits > > NCR > 53C90A/B Advanced SCSI Controller (2 different manuals) > 53C94/5/6 databook > 53CF94/96-2 Fast SCSI Controller > Disk Array Controller Firmware > Disk Array Controller Hardware > Disk Array Controller Software > Floppy Disk Controller (SCSI-to-FD) > > National Semiconductor > NS32532 Datasheet > Series 32000 Programmer's Reference Manual > DP8490 Enhanced Asynchronous SCSI Interface > NS32CG16 Programmer's Reference Supplement > Graphics Handbook > Series 32000 Databook > DRAM Management databook > Embedded Controller Databook > > Ohio Scientific > C4P User's Manual (2 different manuals) > 65V Programmer's manual > Schematics for: > 502 CPU board > 505 CPU board > 527 24K memory board > 540 Video board > 542 Polled Keyboard > > Pinnacle Systems > 2 User's manuals for their 68k machine (My P-system machine) > > P-system manuals IV.12 > > Operating System Reference > Program Development Reference > Application Development Guide > Fortran 77 Reference > Assembler Reference > > Weitek > WTL4167 Floating-Point Coprocessor datasheet > > Most of these are from about 1988 to 1992, with the exception of the OSI > documentation, of course, which is from 1979. > > --- > > > What sort of process did you follow? What sort of devices? > > As far as the process, I scanned a manual in and checked to make sure > all the pages were there. If they weren't, I'd scan the pages that > didn't make it, and go through all the pages again. I'll admit this is a > little anal, but better safe than sorry. (When you're using a lot of > shell scripts, you never know if you accidently deleted a page with an > "mv" command.) When all the pages where there, I'd go through the manual > one more time to check for general quality (no folded corners, no torn > pages, etc.) If all was good, the manual would be moved to the directory > that would be the root directory of my CD-ROM. That's pretty much it. > > The big manuals of more than 1000 pages really sucked, because I'd > generally have to make 3 or more passes to get those completely correct. > If I was going to do it again, I'd probably break the larger manuals > into smaller chunks to avoid this problem. > > One thing that made the whole process a lot easier was the netpbm > utilities. I wrote a script to convert the manuals from ~2500x3300 TIFs > to ~500x600 GIFs. My machine takes about 2 seconds to process a 300-400 > DPI TIF, but only a fraction of a second for a 75 DPI GIF. I'd run my > script, then do something else for a while. When it was done, I could > flip through the GIFs with GQview and inspect about 2-4 pages per > second. That saved a lot of time. > > I assume that, by "devices", you mean what type of scanners I used. I > started with an HP 6350cse (with ADF) that I bought for this very > purpose. However, having never owned a scanner before, I was a little > disappointed with how slow the "fast" scanners are. Fortunately, imaging > is an integral part of the software my company sells and, as luck would > have it, we were demoing a new scanner from Fujitsu. This thing > literally does 60 pages/min at 300 dpi - *both* sides. It's about half > that fast at 400 dpi, which I had to use for the IC databooks to get the > fine print. Needless to say, I did most of my scanning on that. > > By the way, to date, I've processed 20046 pages. I'm kinda burned out, > though, so it'll be a while before I do any more. > > From aek at spies.com Fri Sep 3 21:21:44 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <20040904022144.CC19C3C6A@spies.com> Hey John, I'd be happy to put up a mirror of it for you on computer-refuge.org --- What ever happened to the mirror of bitsavers you were going to start? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 3 21:47:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: HP2100A available (Bristol, UK) References: <006b01c49221$45b3e4d0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <007501c49229$8b39c530$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ed wrote.... > these are all the same picture of the flat of the core board.... Yes, but you might try manually typing in hp2, hp3, hp4 in the URL and you'll get the other pictures. Somehow I knew Ed would be looking at this one :) This 2100 looks like it has been kept (or was kept) in a very harsh environment as far as air contamination. I would suspect (and the pictures suggest, although not conclusively) that the heavy soot is thoroughly all over the inside of the unit. More than a wipedown is needed before trying this one's power switch. I'd pay special attention to a cleanout of the power supply and the wirewrap backplane underneath. I'd suggest electronics degreaser, this one is probably going to need a lot more than just compressed air. If you've ever taken apart a 2100A/S power supply, there's just no room at all inside them to get your fingers in and clean. Funny though, the core board that was pulled out looks quite clean. The switch covers appear to all be intact, that's a good thing. The system has 32K, a complete cpu cardset including A9, but no telling which firmware options are installed. There are no I/O cards of any kind in it, which leads me to believe the system was either a spare, or picked apart. Cant hook up anything at all without at least one I/O board. The front panel has some abrasions it looks like on the right, an airbrush gun with the right paint and that would be perfect again. I wouldn't call it a mint system by any means... perhaps "fair". Certainly restorable from a cosmetic standpoint at the least. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 3 21:55:31 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: HP2100A available (Bristol, UK) References: <006b01c49221$45b3e4d0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <007901c4922a$a4af2540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Oh, and by the way... for shipping...the 2100's are fairly heavy. Figure between 90 and 110 pounds plus shipping carton/packing. But fragile? Not at all. Typical HP drop it from a cliff and it'll still work. The main thing to be careful with is the front panel pushbutton switches. The covers get brittle over time and tend to crack and then split. Just have him put a piece of foam cushion across the front, then a piece of cardboard, and tape the cardboard back to the sides. Normal packing for the rest and you'd be fine. Whoever gets it... if he doesn't have a key with it let me know, I think I have a spare. Jay West From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Sep 3 22:21:00 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: New Digital 8in.Floppy Disk Controller RX02 Board Message-ID: <4139349C.1080102@jcwren.com> This may interest some folks. New Digital 8in.Floppy Disk Controller RX02 Board http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5121121179 From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Sep 4 05:39:27 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: New software now available on Series80.org site Message-ID: <200409041039.i84AdREc007531@queen.cs.drexel.edu> If you are looking for software and documentation for the HP Series 80 computers (early 80s) which include the HP-83, HP-85, HP-86 and HP-87 computers, check out www.series80.org. Thanks to contributions from many people the site now contains tons of useful material: Programs: http://www.series80.org/Programs/index.html Documentation: http://www.series80.org/Manuals/index.html ROM Images: http://www.series80.org/Images/index.html Best Regards **vp From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 05:42:04 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040904022144.CC19C3C6A@spies.com> References: <20040904022144.CC19C3C6A@spies.com> Message-ID: I can mirror anything in france, for the european lurkers out there, on ftp://zerkalo.curie.fr. We have a 100 Mbit/s throughput on the internet we don't really use and disk space is not a problem. Stephane ps; I have a few gmail invitations available, email me if interested. On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:21:44 -0700 (PDT), Al Kossow wrote: > > > Hey John, I'd be happy to put up a mirror of it for you on > computer-refuge.org > > --- > > What ever happened to the mirror of bitsavers you were going > to start? > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 4 09:51:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903194107.047e68c8@pc> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040903194107.047e68c8@pc> Message-ID: Too bad AOL doesn't put their stuff on CD-RW (??? CD re-write-able right?) or can a CD-RW be read by a normal CD drive? From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 4 10:01:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for ISA and/or PCI-ISA backplane Message-ID: <4139D8D4.1000609@mdrconsult.com> I've got both an ISA SBC (486DX) and a PCI-ISA (Pentium) SBC that I'd like to play with. Unfortunately, neither came with a backplane. If anybody has a fairly small ISA or ISA-PCI passive backplane for sale or trade, Let me know, please. Something in the 3-6-slot range, with or without enclosure. Doc From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Sep 4 10:54:29 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Andy Allaway wrote: > I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds > 800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but > would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's > would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of > monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? I'm not an authority on the MDS800, but the one I have is actually integral with the display and came with a keyboard. Certainly, I'm able to use it without an RS232 terminal. > ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask that question you may want to reconsider buying it. The MDS800 provided a complete hardware and software environment for developing products using some of the older Intel CPUs. It is not really what I'd think of as being a "pc". Steve From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Sep 4 11:26:47 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for ISA and/or PCI-ISA backplane In-Reply-To: <4139D8D4.1000609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040904121258.030b4df8@192.168.0.1> At 11:01 AM 9/4/2004, you wrote: > I've got both an ISA SBC (486DX) and a PCI-ISA (Pentium) SBC that I'd > like to play with. Unfortunately, neither came with a backplane. If > anybody has a fairly small ISA or ISA-PCI passive backplane for sale or > trade, Let me know, please. Something in the 3-6-slot range, with or > without enclosure. Sorry Doc. Had 4 racks in the attic. Checked and all the passive backplanes had been pulled. Found what looked to be a VME backplane though? 12 Female sockets, on 20mm centers, 3 rows of 32 pins on each socket. If you have an old PC motherboard in your junk pile you might consider taking some tin snips and Dremel tool to it. Many SBC's have power connectors on them. Otherwise, guess you'd have to solder +5 and ground to the pins on the bottom of the MB socket, or make a paddle board from another ISA throw-away card. I get my SBC's and backplanes from: http://www.axiomtek.com/index.php Ed Kelleher From dmabry at mich.com Sat Sep 4 11:42:25 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> Somehow I missed the original message in this thread, but maybe I can clear up a bit of Andy's confusion. The Intellec MDS 800 is the development system that Intel sold to create products on their 8080 and later processors. It was itself based on what later became known as the "Multibus" architecture. It ran a 2MHz 8080 cpu and was standard with 16K bytes of RAM. You could add more, up to 64K that the main cpu (the 8080) could address. Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" floppy drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set of TWO multibus board to control those two floppy drives. Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M operating system for that computer and Intel also sold their own called ISIS-II (there might have been an ISIS without the II, but I never knew of it). The system that Steve mentions here with an integrated CRT and keyboard has to be the follow-on product from Intel called the MDS Series II, a different, but compatible, system from the MDS-800. The 800 needed an external terminal. There is much more, and if Andy wants to e-mail me directly I can give him much more information. Joe Rigdon and Tony Duell are authorities on these systems and they will likely offer their own information. Good luck with that classic, Andy. Dave Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Andy Allaway wrote: > > >>I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds >>800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but >>would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's >>would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of >>monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? > > > I'm not an authority on the MDS800, but the one I have is actually > integral with the display and came with a keyboard. Certainly, I'm able > to use it without an RS232 terminal. > > >>ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? > > > Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask that question > you may want to reconsider buying it. The MDS800 provided a complete > hardware and software environment for developing products using some of > the older Intel CPUs. It is not really what I'd think of as being a "pc". > > Steve > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team From classiccmp at hexamon.org Wed Sep 1 19:05:30 2004 From: classiccmp at hexamon.org (Francis Bell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:53 2005 Subject: HP2100A available (Bristol, UK) Message-ID: Free to the first person who can collect it: I have an HP 2100A looking for a new home; this system doesn't come with any peripherals, it's just the system unit. I have no idea what the modules are in this system, but at least one of them appears to be a magnetic core store. I've never switched this system on, so I don't know what condition it is in - I'd certainly recommend testing the power supply offline before use. Since I have no software for this, it's most likely to be useful to someone who has the software and peripherals already. The date shown on the chips would point to a manufacture date arond 1975. This system in in Bristol UK, it's heavy and fragile and therefore I would prefer not to ship it. Priority will be given to anyone who can collect, but if there are none such then I am prepared to ship it provided the taker covers my packaging and shipping costs plus any import duties. Some photos are available at: http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg core memory module http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg modules top view http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg inside system http://www.hexamon.org/hp2100/hp1.jpg front panel If you are interested, pleae send an email to hp2100 (at) hexamon.org F From pzachary at sasquatch.com Wed Sep 1 21:33:55 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62188.216.218.236.136.1094092435.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> > > Leave the ScotchBrite for what ot does well: post-dinner lasagna... > > > Cheers > > John I guess I should have been more specific, and say that 3M company makes a line of abrasives that use the scotchbrite technology but are MUCH finer, (10000 grit or so I think is the bottom end, I don't use anything finer than 1800) and these have supplanted most of the bar substances in the machine shop, I routinely use this stuff to remove the last part of that 1/10000" of an inch on a high spot the grinder missed, I certianly wouldn't endorse a pot scrubber (unless perhaps the heads had been uncovered, in a backyard for 15 years and it might work) but have seen some pretty scary things done with surface-plate honing too. I suppose at some level this gets into the individual owner vs museum debate where many of the things we do to old computers shouldn't be done by other than trained professionals, supremely confidant in the execution of the delicate task of restoring these increasingly rare artifacts, but if the individuals hadn't been doing this, how many of these machines would still be around? I'd like to have my packs professionally cleaned and certified, etc but with it costing $2000 to have a servo written, who can afford it? actually, this reminds me of baking-soda blasting for microfinishing and rust removal, I wonder if this is still done? Pavl_ From pzachary at sasquatch.com Wed Sep 1 21:44:56 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: xenix In-Reply-To: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62048.216.218.236.136.1094093096.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> What version Xenix? what application are you using and do you have the media for that? Xenix is not freely available, but there are some unopened copies floating around in the computer junk shops and perhaps ebay. Pavl_ > Hi > I am trying to locate XENIX install disks > would you know where to look ? > I am helping a friend get a cnc machine up > something made by cybermation > > Any help would greatly appreciated > > Regards > > Ephraim Schoenfeld > > > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 21:46:25 2004 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Teledisk problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/1/04 9:46 AM, Christian Corti at cc@corti-net.de wrote: > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Richard Lynch wrote: >> disk, but I can't be sure because I can't recreate the disk. It gets to 32 >> sectors and can't find anymore. I have a similar problem trying to use >> Anadisk to format an 8" floppy. I set it to 48 sectors, but it only writes >> out to 32 sectors. > > What disk format are you trying to create? Nearly all PC floppy > controllers (and probably other controllers, too) can't handle more than > 32 sectors/track. I've found one that could do more (up to about 50) but I > don't remember the type right now (maybe a DP8473). Other things that > could cause problems are the GAP sizes which can't be made too small. I > tried it when I wanted to create 52 sec/trk MFM disks, although 26 sec/trk > FM works fine. > > Christian > > In Anadisk, I set the parameters to MFM, High Density, 128K sector size, 77 tracks, 48 sectors. It appears to format it correctly, but when I go to scan it afterward, it says the sector IDs are 1-32. From riad at intnet.mu Wed Sep 1 23:14:56 2004 From: riad at intnet.mu (Riad M. Hossen Ally) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: HP4951 protocol analyser - help Message-ID: <000a01c490a3$6aede0e0$300c7bca@SIERRA> Sir, We are from Mauritius and we have got a Protocol Analyser HP 4951B but without a manual. We have found your email on http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2002-September/002215.html website through a Google search. We would be very grateful if you could kindly inform us the possibility of getting a copy (photocopy) of the HP 4951B manual. Should you agree to help us, we would be pleased to send you the cost for the copy and s&h costs to Mauritius. Thanking you in anticipation, and looking forward to hearing from you soon. Kind Regards, Riad Hossen Ally Port Louis MAURITIUS. From waisun.chia at hp.com Thu Sep 2 12:07:53 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo Message-ID: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> Hmmm...my BA11-N (11/03L) was resprayed evidently as there are paint oversprays to the control panel area (the toggle switches), but I didn't know that the BA11-N front was actually in a single plain color.. I know that the BA11-M (11/03) has a nice DEC/PDP logo with color, and the BA11-S (11/23) also, so I assumed that the BA11-N has too.. Heck, and I thought using the DEC maroon for the background and white for the DEC bricks and PDP logo.. /wai-sun From phirkel at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 2 13:58:37 2004 From: phirkel at sympatico.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Model 300 - OS installation Questions Message-ID: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Hello again. I managed to jury rig a null modem cable for my "new" VAX (using a phone cable, some resources I found on Google, mere hours before Jochen posted a link to the same Google search I did :) ), using a phone cable and an old RS232 cable. It ain't pretty, but it works. My next problem is how to get an OS onto this thing. I can easily enough get the distribution CD from Encompass for Hobbyists, however, I lack a means of getting VMS onto the machine, since it only has a TK70 drive, 3 DSSI hard disks, and no SCSI adaptor. I am quite comfortable with setting up over a network (having done many installs of IRIX using Linux as a server), however, I have not found any resources on how to do this with VMS, only with NetBSD. So, what should I do? Has anybody successfully installed VMS using Linux as a server? Or should I invest in a KZQSA controller and use a SUN CD-ROM drive with it (can this be done)? Or perhaps should I invest in a DSSI CD-ROM drive? Does such a beast exist for the VAX 4000/300, even? I'm relatively new to the VAX platform from an administrative perspective, so please bear with me! Thanks! Phil. From aaallaway at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 21:38:12 2004 From: aaallaway at hotmail.com (Andy Allaway) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 Message-ID: I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds 800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? I think I need a tty serial monitor/keyboard. (Thats what I read online, what does that mean?) Is the ebay below a terminal that will work on the this intellec? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=170&item=5117243715&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Or do I have to buy a vintage one like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5118745209&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW I want to test this intellec before I buy it and want a monitor/keyboard to hook up to it before I buy it. I also dont want to spend alot for the monitor/keyboard since the pc is quite costly. Thanks for your advice, Andy ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? From JMeyer101 at aol.com Fri Sep 3 15:43:41 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Manual for Intellec 8 ? Message-ID: <07E2B88A.35CA6BE3.0233EB56@aol.com> Jack, I have an electronic copy of the Intellec 8 Reference Manual if you need that (both Word and .PDF). Jeff From vlm at mulhollon.com Fri Sep 3 17:22:23 2004 From: vlm at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: simh running as root etc In-Reply-To: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> Hello fellow retrocomputing folks Here's my perspective as the guy whom maintains the Debian package of simh. Lots of people don't like to run or install suid binaries especially something like simh that can overwrite files. Imagine a multiuser system, with simh pdp11 installed as root. Now "attach lpt /etc/passwd" well you get the idea not a good situation. My way around it, was to compile two copies of the pdp11, one plain user prog called pdp11, one with ethernet compiled in called pdp11-ether. If someone wants they can SUID root the pdp11-ether, but I'm not going to do it for them. I am not an expert pdp11 user but this seems to result in no complaints (whom is an expert on all 32 simh emulators other than Bob S ?) The reference to a kernel 2.6 feature that works around all that, is probably a reference to the tun interfaces, the ones used by openvpn and all that. At least that is my guess. Never tried that. Its open source, if you can give a good explanation of what you want in a simh package for Debian, I'll make it happen... From dj.taylor at starpower.net Fri Sep 3 21:06:06 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Fujitsu SMD Disk for PDP-11 Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040903215621.01b16c90@pop.starpower.net> In a moment of weakness I purchased a Fujitsu M2312K SMD disk (64MB) and thought it would be a neat thing if I could get it up and running on a Qbus PDP. Looking for power supply, cables and Emulex SC02 controller (for the RK06/7 emulation under RT11), formatting software. The disk resides with me in Maryland. Doug [Tim Shoppa, are you listening?] From dj.taylor at starpower.net Fri Sep 3 21:10:14 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: DEC Educational Guides Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20040903220617.01b96b68@pop.starpower.net> Back in 1984 I journeyed to Lexington, Mass and took a course at the DEC facility in Bedford (I think). It was a 2 or 3 day RT11 course, and was quite good. I remember bringing home a thick green book that was the guide for the student, I don't have it anymore; does anyone have one of these? The course I took was for RT11 V4, I wonder if there was a V5 course. Anyone take one of those DEC on site courses? I've never seen this type of DEC documentation offered for sale on ebay or anywhere. Maybe just rare? Doug From emmanuel at emmanuel.net Sat Sep 4 01:59:31 2004 From: emmanuel at emmanuel.net (Emmanuel Gadaix) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: <000801c48d5a$a6090ac0$772b52a6@default> References: <000801c48d5a$a6090ac0$772b52a6@default> Message-ID: <1910384313.20040904135931@emmanuel.net> Hi, I would be extremely interested in the 5110A with internal tape drive. How much do you want for it? Kind regards Emmanuel Sunday, August 29, 2004, 6:56:32 AM, you wrote: > Hello, > Found your site searching on Yahoo for IBM 5110 or 5120. > We have some equipment for sale maybe you might be interested in: > 1 5120, IBM model 5110/3, 8" floppy drive, BASIC > 1 5120 IBM model 5110/?, 8" floppy, BASIC/APL > 1 5110 IBM model 5110A, internal tape drive, BASIC/APL > 1 5114 IBM disk drive, 2 8" floppy drives > 2 5103 printers > We are an accounting firm who used these computers a very long > time ago. We are moving this month, these have been in our office > in storage and I would like to sell these if possible. > If you are interested and would like any more detail, please > contact us and I will try to provide any information needed. Some > of this equipment worked when we quit using this but I do not know > the condition since it has not been in use in many years. > Thank you, > Sharon Hamrick -- Emmanuel Gadaix emmanuel@emmanuel.net From JMeyer101 at aol.com Sat Sep 4 11:06:05 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Manual for Intellec 8 ? Message-ID: <196.2e3d1cdf.2e6b41ed@aol.com> Paul or anyone else, Do you have any Intellec 4 Manuals that you'd let go? Thanks, Jeff Meyer From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 4 11:17:26 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: <200409041429.i84ET63g021877@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200409041617.i84GHJVe014426@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> The MDS-800 was an Intel development system using multibus cards. It's not a typical "hobbyist" system, although it's a very high quality computer. It normally ran Intel ISIS operating system, but CP/M is available for it. You will have a very difficult time finding multibus boards or ISIS software for this machine, although, again, it will run CP/M as well. As to the terminal, my suggestion would be: None of the above. What I use as terminals for old PCs is a PC running terminal emulation program. Often, the best thing to do is to get an old, working, monochrome laptop, usually a 386 or 486, you can buy these for $5 on E-Bay. My "main" terminal for one of my systems, is an old Zenith Z-Note 386 laptop, running DOS and Windows 3.1, I use the "terminal" program from Windows 3.1. For one of my other computers, and IMSAI, I use a serial port on my "main" computer (this one, a Pentium 4 3.06GHz), and Hyperterm under XP. That's all that you need, really. You don't need a "real" terminal, although you can certainly buy one if you wish, and if weight and size are not an issue. But if weight and size are any issue at all, it's hard to go wrong with a $5 to $10 386 or 486 laptop. *********** From: "Andy Allaway" Subject: Intellec-mds 800 To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds 800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? I think I need a tty serial monitor/keyboard. (Thats what I read online, what does that mean?) Is the ebay below a terminal that will work on the this intellec? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=170&item=5117243715&r d=1&ssPageName=WDVW Or do I have to buy a vintage one like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5118745209& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW I want to test this intellec before I buy it and want a monitor/keyboard to hook up to it before I buy it. I also dont want to spend alot for the monitor/keyboard since the pc is quite costly. Thanks for your advice, Andy ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Sep 4 12:37:51 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for ISA and/or PCI-ISA backplane In-Reply-To: <4139D8D4.1000609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > I've got both an ISA SBC (486DX) and a PCI-ISA (Pentium) SBC that I'd > like to play with. Unfortunately, neither came with a backplane. If > anybody has a fairly small ISA or ISA-PCI passive backplane for sale or > trade, Let me know, please. Something in the 3-6-slot range, with or > without enclosure. > > > Doc > We used to make that stuff... Let me look in the attic... may have a 6 slotter around still (or someting weird like a dual 3 slotter with dual ported RAM connection between sides) Peter Wallace From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Sep 4 13:20:28 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: <62188.216.218.236.136.1094092435.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> References: <62188.216.218.236.136.1094092435.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 pzachary@sasquatch.com wrote: > > I guess I should have been more specific, and say that 3M company makes a > line of abrasives that use the scotchbrite technology but are MUCH finer, > (10000 grit or so I think is the bottom end, I don't use anything finer > than 1800) and these have supplanted most of the bar substances in the Yup - to re-iterate, I have successfully recovered large audio heads from foriegn-object damage (slipped screwdriver, shipping damage, etc. - ouch!) by using a strip of cleaned linen to which has been applied a *very light* paste of mineral oil and jeweller's rouge - or, as mentioned, some other exceedingly fine grit abrasive powder. This is then 'seesawed' very gently across the pole faces in the same direction the tape travels In cinema audio work, where the heads were typically 30MM tall and have from one to six poles - the three-track pole faces are 1/4" *each* - after lapping them, we typically used a short continuous loop of some crap mag stock, which would run for an hour or two, to 'condition' the head and lap it in to it's final shape - using the natural abrasiveness of the media itself to finish the job. But none of this is for the faint-of-heart - ya gotta go slow and think about what is being done, all in terms of a knowledge of the physics and mechanics of tape-recording head technology. No matter what the signal or the number of tracks, the mechanical aspects remain the same for all classes of static-head machines. And most certainly you are dead-on about first taking the decision as what the ultimate end is - is this for a museum? Hobby machine? Critical application? Cheers John From kth at srv.net Sat Sep 4 14:37:07 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> References: <003301c490a0$5d658d40$0500fea9@game> <1094124432.10659.45.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409022326.ZM12250@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040903114114.0094dbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040903132828.A16112@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <413A1963.7000303@srv.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>So we're a bunch of Hardware/Software conservationists >>and up to 10% of us are dedicated to destroying old software >>on CDs. >> >> > >If you were to build a device to scan a stationary piece of CD, >rather than trying to spin it, how much of the data could be >recovered from a disk with a hole drilled through it, or broken >in half? > > If it just has a hole drilled through it, you should still be able to read most of it on an ordinary CD reader, as long as the hole isn't through the directory. Just don't spin it too fast (use a 1x drive). From vax3900 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 14:34:04 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Looking for ISA and/or PCI-ISA backplane In-Reply-To: <4139D8D4.1000609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040904193404.88126.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > I've got both an ISA SBC (486DX) and a PCI-ISA > (Pentium) SBC that I'd > like to play with. Unfortunately, neither came with > a backplane. If > anybody has a fairly small ISA or ISA-PCI passive > backplane for sale or > trade, Let me know, please. Something in the > 3-6-slot range, with or > without enclosure. There is currently one on ebay, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=5119561753 I was going to buy it days ago, but later I changed my mind. vax, 3900 > > > Doc > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Sep 4 14:49:59 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> References: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > Somehow I missed the original message in this thread, but maybe I can clear up > a bit of Andy's confusion. > > The Intellec MDS 800 is the development system that Intel sold to create > products on their 8080 and later processors. It was itself based on what > later became known as the "Multibus" architecture. It ran a 2MHz 8080 cpu and > was standard with 16K bytes of RAM. You could add more, up to 64K that the > main cpu (the 8080) could address. > > Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" floppy > drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on > whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set of TWO > multibus board to control those two floppy drives. > > Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M operating system for that computer and Intel also > sold their own called ISIS-II (there might have been an ISIS without the II, > but I never knew of it). > > The system that Steve mentions here with an integrated CRT and keyboard has to > be the follow-on product from Intel called the MDS Series II, a different, but > compatible, system from the MDS-800. The 800 needed an external terminal. Thanks for filling that in. I don't know a lot about this unit. It came from the local university surplus outlet, and was accompanied by reams of documentation, diskettes and EPROM burner modules. It has the dual drive subsystem, but I have not gone into it to see what the controllers are. It keeps my HP64000 company. Picked one of them up at the same time, along with probably every bit of documentation, pods and software ever made for it. Hard to find anyone who's even heard of them (besides you, Dave ). From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 4 14:56:29 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Model 300 - OS installation Questions References: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <005501c492b9$456887e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > My next problem is how to get an OS onto this thing. I can easily > enough get the distribution CD from Encompass for Hobbyists, however, I > lack a means of getting VMS onto the machine, Where are you located? I am feeling generous, and could image the CD to DSSI for you. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 4 15:01:44 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: DEC Educational Guides References: <6.0.1.1.0.20040903220617.01b96b68@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <006301c492ba$017602a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I have seen DEC classroom docs on eBay, but not RT11. Rare, truly, perhaps because a lot of class documents are either sparse (room left for the student to add in instructors comments) or in fact filled in (pencil & handwriting everywhere). Either it doesn't say much, or does so because of "Graffitti". Wait 10 years and then check with Al Kossow? maybe someone does have it here. Good Luck. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 4 15:16:38 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: that hobby... References: <20040904193404.88126.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007701c492bc$1645da00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Good collecting day. While collectiing PeeCee/w/monitor for my "Make a Difference" efforts, I seemed to stumble across an impromptu "Donate your Classiccmp" day at the recycling center. Found my first: TI-99, PS/2 P70(yipee), KayPro/w/HDD,Amiga. Also: C64/w/FDD/&/Koalapad, Apple //c with 3.5" FDD add-on Apple ][ rather maxed, '086 Zenith laptop. Cripes, I even left two IBM 5150's and a fatMac. most tired now, John A. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Sat Sep 4 17:29:09 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903194107.047e68c8@pc> Message-ID: <200409041529.09708.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> On Saturday 04 September 2004 07:51, Ron Hudson wrote: > Too bad AOL doesn't put their stuff on CD-RW (??? CD re-write-able > right?) > > or can a CD-RW be read by a normal CD drive? Many CD-R drives can read CD-RW disks, provided you have UDF support. For example, on the couple Windows-98 systems I've set up for others, I always install Adaptec Direct CD, and then immediately uninstall it, but keep the UDF driver installed. Afterwards, the CD-ROM drive is able to handle CD-RW disks fine, unless the drive isn't multi-read. From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Sep 4 18:31:12 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 Message-ID: <8165040.1094340673412.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> actually software for it would not be a problem if I can ever get my hands on a MDS800 or MDS230 series II. I have all the ISIS software that Intel produced for the machines, BUT I can't duplicate the disks yet. I am working on a MDS225 that I have - part here in Virginia and the keyboard and display subsystems back in Washington state. I still have a standing request to anyone that has one of these machines that would like to part with it for cash or other items. For the record, my first commercial development system was the MDS 800 doing 8080, 8048, and 8085 assembly and using Intel's ICE systems. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Barry Watzman Sent: Sep 4, 2004 12:17 PM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intellec-mds 800 The MDS-800 was an Intel development system using multibus cards. It's not a typical "hobbyist" system, although it's a very high quality computer. It normally ran Intel ISIS operating system, but CP/M is available for it. You will have a very difficult time finding multibus boards or ISIS software for this machine, although, again, it will run CP/M as well. As to the terminal, my suggestion would be: None of the above. What I use as terminals for old PCs is a PC running terminal emulation program. Often, the best thing to do is to get an old, working, monochrome laptop, usually a 386 or 486, you can buy these for $5 on E-Bay. My "main" terminal for one of my systems, is an old Zenith Z-Note 386 laptop, running DOS and Windows 3.1, I use the "terminal" program from Windows 3.1. For one of my other computers, and IMSAI, I use a serial port on my "main" computer (this one, a Pentium 4 3.06GHz), and Hyperterm under XP. That's all that you need, really. You don't need a "real" terminal, although you can certainly buy one if you wish, and if weight and size are not an issue. But if weight and size are any issue at all, it's hard to go wrong with a $5 to $10 386 or 486 laptop. *********** From: "Andy Allaway" Subject: Intellec-mds 800 To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds 800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? I think I need a tty serial monitor/keyboard. (Thats what I read online, what does that mean?) Is the ebay below a terminal that will work on the this intellec? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=170&item=5117243715&r d=1&ssPageName=WDVW Or do I have to buy a vintage one like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5118745209& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW I want to test this intellec before I buy it and want a monitor/keyboard to hook up to it before I buy it. I also dont want to spend alot for the monitor/keyboard since the pc is quite costly. Thanks for your advice, Andy ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? From aek at spies.com Sat Sep 4 18:58:16 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <20040904235816.C23803BFD@spies.com> It keeps my HP64000 company. Picked one of them up at the same time, along with probably every bit of documentation, pods and software ever made for it. -- I've been trying to archive documentation and software for these. www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/640000 would you be willing to loan the docs out that I don't already have to be scanned, along w the discs to archive? From aek at spies.com Sat Sep 4 19:00:30 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: TEK 8002A floppy documentation? Message-ID: <20040905000030.91DF83BFD@spies.com> The Tek 8002A used an external hard sectored 8" disc box. I have several boxes of 8" discs I'd like to try to read, but I don't have any docs on the floppy unit (I have the manual for the main box). Does anyone happen to have the svc manual for this? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 4 18:30:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Rust on tape heads In-Reply-To: <62188.216.218.236.136.1094092435.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> from "pzachary@sasquatch.com" at Sep 1, 4 07:33:55 pm Message-ID: > I guess I should have been more specific, and say that 3M company makes a > line of abrasives that use the scotchbrite technology but are MUCH finer, > (10000 grit or so I think is the bottom end, I don't use anything finer > than 1800) and these have supplanted most of the bar substances in the You might also look at a _good_ jewellery equipment supplier (I'd go to H. S. Walsk, simply because they're near here). They stock some 'interesting' polising abrasives that might well be useable on tape heads (they are certainly usable on optical parts. > I suppose at some level this gets into the individual owner vs museum > debate where many of the things we do to old computers shouldn't be done > by other than trained professionals, supremely confidant in the execution You've struck a raw nerve there! Never underestimate the skill, equipment, or abilities of a true enthusiast. No, they're probably not trained to do the job, but that's a good thing, because it may mean they really understand what they are doing and are not going to do something stupid as a result (all too often, 'training' at least in the UK simply means knowing a procedure to follow, and following it, even if it's totally the wrong thing to do!). No I don't claim to be able to lap a tape head. But I do claim that I routinely do things that the manufacturers claim are impossible to do in the field, and I have no problems at all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 4 18:40:44 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: from "Andy Allaway" at Sep 2, 4 09:38:12 pm Message-ID: > > I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec > mds 800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's I have one, I also have the manuals, including schemmatics.. > but would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best > pc's would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type Deifne 'best'. Best for what purpose? It's certainly not the fastest machine ever made. It's certainly not the first 8080 system (that honour may well go to the Intellec MSC8i). It is a very solid 8080 development system (and can be used to cross-develop programs for other processors, things like the 8048 and Intel's DSP (2900 IIRC)). What are you planning to use it for? Why do you want it? > of monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? It uses a serial terminal. You can use just about any serial terminal, or a PC (deskop, laptop, even a palmtop) with a serial port running a terminal emulator (I often use my HP95LX or HP100LX for testing machines like this, those machines have a terminal emulator in ROM). In the end you mioght want to get a terminal from the same historical period, but you don't need to do this to start with. The only problem may be that the MDS800 is expecting a current loop interface, not an RS232 interface. I built a converter for this _years_ ago (and can probably still find the schematics), I think such things were also made comemrcially at one point. However, if you're not comfortable with the idea of a serial termianl, then you probably don't want to start making interfaces... > I want to test this intellec before I buy it and want a monitor/keyboard to > hook up to it before I buy it. > > I also dont want to spend alot for the monitor/keyboard since the pc is > quite costly. > > Thanks for your advice, > Andy > > ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? Err, why on earth do you want to buy it if you don't know what you can do with it? Well, OK, I've bought machines not knowing exactly what they can do, but I generally have a fairly good idea as to what they were used for. To be honest, I am not convinced you'd be happy with the MDS800. It sounds like you have very little old computer experienec at all. This is not a bad thing -- we all started somewhere, we all had to learn (and most of us, including myself, are still learning). But the MDS800 is not a totally trivial machine to get going or keep going. I would suggest starting out with one of the all-in-one CP/M machines (my favourite is the Epson QX10, but there are many, many, more that people here can recomed) at least to get he feel of 8080/Z80 based computing. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 4 19:13:04 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: Wai-Sun Chia "11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo" (Sep 3, 1:07) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> Message-ID: <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 3 2004, 1:07, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Hmmm...my BA11-N (11/03L) was resprayed evidently as there are paint > oversprays to the control panel area (the toggle switches), but I didn't > know that the BA11-N front was actually in a single plain color.. > > I know that the BA11-M (11/03) has a nice DEC/PDP logo with color, and > the BA11-S (11/23) also, so I assumed that the BA11-N has too.. Well, that's odd, because none of the ones I've ever seen are anything but grey! Mine are all plain grey, no colour, as are the three I've sold or given away in the last five years. All the ones I used to service when I worked for a TPM company were plain grey too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 4 19:50:23 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: Scarletdown "Re: CD Shredder" (Sep 4, 15:29) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903194107.047e68c8@pc> <200409041529.09708.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <10409050150.ZM14491@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 4 2004, 15:29, Scarletdown wrote: > On Saturday 04 September 2004 07:51, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Too bad AOL doesn't put their stuff on CD-RW (??? CD re-write-able > > right?) > > > > or can a CD-RW be read by a normal CD drive? > > Many CD-R drives can read CD-RW disks, provided you have UDF support. > For example, on the couple Windows-98 systems I've set up for others, Almost any CD-ROM or CD-R drive should be able to physically read a CD-RW, without any special support. Those that can't are mostly old CD-ROM drives that can't handle the lower levels of light reflected from a CD-RW. However, UDF is a type of file system that's used mainly by some DVDs, video CDs, and some consumer-electronics recorders, and whether that can be read depends on support in your OS, not the type of drive. Unfortunately there are several flavours of UDF, and a lot of vendor-specific extensions, some of which are used by drag-and-drool software for Windows. The other problem often seen with CD-RW disks, even when they have a more ordinary filesystem on them, is that they're not "fixated" or "closed" -- the last session is left open so it can be added to. The usual reason is that someone has treated the CD-RW as a big floppy, rather than a write-once (and perhaps later erase completely) medium. Lots of software (and CD players) can't handle unfixated disks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Sep 4 20:00:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Re: BA11 Colors.... >>> Well, that's odd, because none of the ones I've ever seen >>> are anything but grey! Mine are all plain grey, no colour, >>> as are the three I've sold or given away in the last five >>> years. All the ones I used to service when I worked for a >>> TPM company were plain grey too. I would be very interested in seeing a picture of one of these enclosures in anything other than the plain gray.... From thompson at new.rr.com Sat Sep 4 22:19:14 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Model 300 - OS installation Questions In-Reply-To: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> References: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Philippe Vachon wrote: > done)? Or perhaps should I invest in a DSSI CD-ROM drive? Does such a > beast exist for the VAX 4000/300, even? Another option is to keep an eye open on Ebay for a DSSI/SCSI converter box. Then you can run disks/tapes/cd's at your convenience.... Winchester Systems CDI4000/AB is one such model. From ohh at drizzle.com Sun Sep 5 00:32:06 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Really Big Jacobs-Ladders Message-ID: It's somewhat off-topic, but judging by the joy everyone got out of CD destruction I thought it would go over well anyway. :) MPEGs of a pair of pretty spectacular, somewhat-unintentional, power-line Jacobs Ladders (one of them three-phase, the other producing a prolonged 50-foot arc) and also a little movie about what happens when your neighborhood transformer shorts to ground: http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm There's also a link at the bottom of the page to show how to shrink coins using about 100,000 amps of pulsed magnetic field. It's nice to know there are other people out there having fun too. :) :) -O.- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Sep 5 01:05:29 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Really Big Jacobs-Ladders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409050630.CAA20021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > MPEGs of a pair of pretty spectacular, somewhat-unintentional, > power-line Jacobs Ladders [...] > http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm Unfortunately the two long-arc mpegs just produce Unexpected startcode 00000000 in system layer when thrown at my mpeg player. I went looking for updates to the software I use, and it doesn't appear there are any; the readme webpage shows a date of "July 19, 1996". Anyone know of an open-source mpeg player that doesn't require installing the kitchen sink and yet is reasonably up-to-date? (I found something called VLC, which looked good, until I saw that it required libdvdcss, libdvdplay, libdvdread, libdvbpsi, mpeg2dec, a52dec, ffmpeg, faad2, libmad, lame, libid3tag, libogg, libvorbis, libtheora, flac, openslp, fribidi, live, gettext, libiconf, freetype, libebml, libmatroska, wxWindows, zlib, libpng, libxml2, and libmodplug - most of which are completely irrelevant for what I want! I don't care about doing anything with DVDs. I don't care about font rendering or non-Latin-1 language support. I don't care about encoding. I care about GUIs, but negatively - I actively don't want a GUI. I don't want a program that tries to do everything, even for small values of "everything". I want a program that does one well-contained task well: unpacking MPEGs into video frames. Doing audio data would be a plus.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 5 01:53:03 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Updates to the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor site Message-ID: <200409050653.XAA10494@floodgap.com> Updates have (finally) been completed to the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor page. This page is dedicated to the Tomy Tutor, an unusual brother of the Texas Instruments 99/4A, and its Japanese and UK relatives, featuring pictures, scans, documentation, programming information, cartridge lists, hardware specifications and more. The URL: http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/ Updates this time around: * A completely new and separate section for the Tomy Pyuuta series, with complete photographs of the inside and out of the rare Japanese Pyuuta and the even rarer Pyuuta Mk II, and screen shots and manual scans where available. (Pyuuta Jr. section coming soon when I land one of them. ^^) * Redone photographs of the main unit and motherboard, including how to take apart the unit and identify major components, as well as new photographs of packaging, ad copy and peripherals. * Additional screenshots and cartridges in the Incomplete Catalogue, including the "3-D" series. * GPL LIVES! Raphael Nabet provides new information that an unusual variant of GPL does indeed lurk within the Tomy (rats!) on the TI vs. Tomy section, and also contributes large amounts of information to update the Memory Map. * Hardware page updated with new information about Tutor hardware mappings and ROM banking strategies. * Various custodial updates. Please let me know about any questions or inaccuracies. Have fun! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Birth, n.: The first and direst of all disasters. -- Ambrose Bierce -------- From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Sep 5 01:43:18 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Really Big Jacobs-Ladders In-Reply-To: <200409050630.CAA20021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409050630.CAA20021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Linux & MPlayer? http://www.mplayerhq.hu/ Not certain of its multi-platform compatability, as I don't think I've bothered trying anything besides Linux w/ it. David On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, der Mouse wrote: > > MPEGs of a pair of pretty spectacular, somewhat-unintentional, > > power-line Jacobs Ladders [...] > > http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm > > Unfortunately the two long-arc mpegs just produce > > Unexpected startcode 00000000 in system layer > > when thrown at my mpeg player. > > I went looking for updates to the software I use, and it doesn't appear > there are any; the readme webpage shows a date of "July 19, 1996". > > Anyone know of an open-source mpeg player that doesn't require > installing the kitchen sink and yet is reasonably up-to-date? (I found > something called VLC, which looked good, until I saw that it required > libdvdcss, libdvdplay, libdvdread, libdvbpsi, mpeg2dec, a52dec, ffmpeg, > faad2, libmad, lame, libid3tag, libogg, libvorbis, libtheora, flac, > openslp, fribidi, live, gettext, libiconf, freetype, libebml, > libmatroska, wxWindows, zlib, libpng, libxml2, and libmodplug - most of > which are completely irrelevant for what I want! I don't care about > doing anything with DVDs. I don't care about font rendering or > non-Latin-1 language support. I don't care about encoding. I care > about GUIs, but negatively - I actively don't want a GUI. I don't want > a program that tries to do everything, even for small values of > "everything". I want a program that does one well-contained task well: > unpacking MPEGs into video frames. Doing audio data would be a plus.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 5 05:03:44 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: OT: Really Big Jacobs-Ladders In-Reply-To: <200409050630.CAA20021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409050630.CAA20021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1094378624.2966.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 02:05 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > MPEGs of a pair of pretty spectacular, somewhat-unintentional, > > power-line Jacobs Ladders [...] > > http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm > > Unfortunately the two long-arc mpegs just produce > > Unexpected startcode 00000000 in system layer > > when thrown at my mpeg player. > > I went looking for updates to the software I use, and it doesn't appear > there are any; the readme webpage shows a date of "July 19, 1996". > > Anyone know of an open-source mpeg player that doesn't require > installing the kitchen sink and yet is reasonably up-to-date? works here with mplayer under Redhat 9 from a shell (version 1.0pre2- RPM-3.1) just using x11 as the output device. Although I don't know if sound works - can't be bothered to get up off the chair and go switch the amp on :-) I haven't got mpeg playback working from a web browser yet but I'm none too fussed about trying! > I actively don't want a GUI. jules@pukeko[~]$ mplayer -vo x11 /tmp/500kV_Switch.mpg Couldn't be easier. Actually, giving the URL as the filename works too... > I don't want > a program that tries to do everything, even for small values of > "everything". I want a program that does one well-contained task well: > unpacking MPEGs into video frames. Doing audio data would be a plus.) Actually mplayer does seem to do a lot - I generally use it for converting mp3 files back to a raw audio file, plus something else I need to look at is how to get it to dump a realplayer stream to disk (I think it can do it) cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 5 06:12:24 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: simh running as root etc In-Reply-To: <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> References: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> Message-ID: <413AF498.8080500@gjcp.net> Vince Mulhollon wrote: > My way around it, was to compile two copies of the pdp11, one > plain user prog called pdp11, one with ethernet compiled in > called pdp11-ether. If someone wants they can SUID root the > pdp11-ether, but I'm not going to do it for them. > I am not an expert pdp11 user but this seems to result in no > complaints (whom is an expert on all 32 simh emulators other > than Bob S ?) Why does simh need to run as root to do networky stuff? Gordon. From Ladyelec at aol.com Sun Sep 5 07:14:36 2004 From: Ladyelec at aol.com (Ladyelec@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: aol disks Message-ID: <27.60b8b867.2e6c5d2c@aol.com> Actually AOL disks are quote collectable. Some folks collect them for the graphics, like some folks collect old advertising. I have seen an AOL 1.0 floppy got for $100.00 on epay. Not to bad for a freebie. I actually have some I am saving to sell years from now. Best if unopened and the CDs in tins seem to be popular. And EASY to ship! On digest, Isa From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Sep 5 08:15:16 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: HP64000 In-Reply-To: <20040904235816.C23803BFD@spies.com> References: <20040904235816.C23803BFD@spies.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > It keeps my HP64000 company. Picked one of them up at the same time, > along with probably every bit of documentation, pods and software ever > made for it. > > -- > > I've been trying to archive documentation and software for these. > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/640000 > > would you be willing to loan the docs out that I don't already > have to be scanned, along w the discs to archive? Due to some past bad experiences, I'm not interested in having the documentation depart the premises. However, if you can suggest an appropriate utility for imaging the diskettes, I'd be willing to take a stab at this task. Steve From aek at spies.com Sun Sep 5 10:53:49 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: <20040905155349.F22373C61@spies.com> However, if you can suggest an appropriate utility for imaging the diskettes, I'd be willing to take a stab at this task. -- I've been using Eric Smith's rfloppy program on Linux http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ which is part of the dmklib package to read the 64000 discs that I have. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Sep 5 12:01:38 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: thanks tony - In-Reply-To: <200409051703.i85H3D3e029200@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000301c4936a$02711b80$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> subtle, but oh so savage! > not a bad thing -- we all started somewhere, we all had to learn (and > most of us, including myself, are still learning). > > -tony > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 5 12:20:40 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: aol disks In-Reply-To: <27.60b8b867.2e6c5d2c@aol.com> References: <27.60b8b867.2e6c5d2c@aol.com> Message-ID: I recently got an AOL disk in a little wooden (well pressed wood) box. My brother collects them so he got that one. He likes the ones in tins too. Recently He found some in plastic bag-like containers shaped like the AOL chat guy. On Sep 5, 2004, at 5:14 AM, Ladyelec@aol.com wrote: > Actually AOL disks are quote collectable. Some folks collect them for > the > graphics, like some folks collect old advertising. I have seen an AOL > 1.0 floppy > got for $100.00 on epay. Not to bad for a freebie. > I actually have some I am saving to sell years from now. Best if > unopened and > the CDs in tins seem to be popular. > And EASY to ship! > On digest, > Isa > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 5 12:41:21 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: aol disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> I recently got an AOL disk in a little wooden (well pressed >>> wood) box. >>> My brother collects them so he got that one. He likes the >>> ones in tins too. Recently He found some in plastic >>> bag-like containers shaped like the AOL chat guy. The actual AOL chat guy in a plastic bag would be much more valuable! Now other things which would have their value increased by being in air-tight bags include........ From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Sep 5 13:04:45 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: simh running as root etc In-Reply-To: <413AF498.8080500@gjcp.net> References: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> <413AF498.8080500@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1094407484.24245.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Cause SIMH does it's networking things (currently) by packet sniffing, and most OS's don't want everyone sniffing packets, (Particularly the ones w/ passwords in them.) ergo, you must be 'root' to sniff packets. David On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 07:12, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Vince Mulhollon wrote: > > > My way around it, was to compile two copies of the pdp11, one > > plain user prog called pdp11, one with ethernet compiled in > > called pdp11-ether. If someone wants they can SUID root the > > pdp11-ether, but I'm not going to do it for them. > > I am not an expert pdp11 user but this seems to result in no > > complaints (whom is an expert on all 32 simh emulators other > > than Bob S ?) > > Why does simh need to run as root to do networky stuff? > > Gordon. From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Sep 5 13:15:08 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:54 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? Message-ID: <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> I tried posting this from a different address and it didn't seem to get through. If this is a double post please forgive me. I need to reply soon..... Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what can be done. I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP Calculator Museum. Got a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the following reply today. I have heard of this being perpetrated on computer collectors in the past so I recognize it as a scam. Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may or may not be real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is illegal in GB but how would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the west coast of the US. Paxton Astoria Following is the message I got today: Hello, Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also for all your efforts towards making this transaction a success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal this transaction there is an associate of mine in the US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when it clears your bank you can now send my balance by Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to you,let me have your contact information so that i can instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your name,address and phone number Please get back to me as soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know your decision regards this transaction. I am banking on my balance so that i will be able to settle my shippers here in there local office because it is cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. James Cole ===== James Cole 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way Woolmer Trading Estate Bordon,Hampshire GU35 9QF UK PS: Is this a good address? From pbmain at wideopenwest.com Sun Sep 5 13:18:11 2004 From: pbmain at wideopenwest.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: DiversiDial software Message-ID: <200409051818.i85IIBN12376@pop-3.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Looking for a copy of the Apple II Diversi-Dial software. Any leads are appreciated. thanks! Pete From fernande at internet1.net Sun Sep 5 13:14:06 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Still Wanted: Side stand for IBM AT Message-ID: <413B576E.2040802@internet1.net> Hi Everyone, Does anybody have an extra side stand for the IBM AT that they would part with? I have never seen one, but it's my understanding that IBM made one for the AT, but most people didn't use them. I'm willing to pay shipping plus a reasonable amount for one in good shape. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From stuart at zen.co.uk Sun Sep 5 13:23:51 2004 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? References: <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <019501c49375$7efaaa30$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> It has all the hallmarks of a money laundering scam. I doubt the real James Cole knows anything about it, that's if he even exists. Nonetheless, the address checks out so you could always notify the FBI - if it's worth following up they can contact the NCIS here in the UK. http://www.ncis.co.uk/contact.asp Stu ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? > I tried posting this from a different address and it didn't seem to get > through. If this is a double post please forgive me. I need to reply soon..... > > > Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering > how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what > can be done. > > I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP Calculator Museum. Got > a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the following reply > today. I have heard of this being perpetrated on computer collectors in the > past so I recognize it as a scam. > > Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may or may not be > real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is illegal in GB but how > would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to > participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the west coast of the US. > > Paxton > Astoria > > Following is the message I got today: > > Hello, > Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also > for all your efforts towards making this transaction a > success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as > possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal > this transaction there is an associate of mine in the > US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him > to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when > it clears your bank you can now send my balance by > Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the > check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, > 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust > you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to > you,let me have your contact information so that i can > instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your > name,address and phone number Please get back to me as > soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know > your decision regards this transaction. I am banking > on my balance so that i will be able to settle my > shippers here in there local office because it is > cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. > James Cole > ===== > James Cole > 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way > Woolmer Trading Estate > Bordon,Hampshire > GU35 9QF UK > > > PS: Is this a good address? > > > > > > > > > > > > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Sep 5 14:08:24 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:15:08 EDT." <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <200409051908.UAA02276@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Innfogra@aol.com said: > James Cole > 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way > Woolmer Trading Estate > Bordon,Hampshire > GU35 9QF UK > > > PS: Is this a good address? The address matches the Postcode. I checked with Multimap. http://www.multimap.com -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cc at corti-net.de Sun Sep 5 03:57:33 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5120/5120 In-Reply-To: <1910384313.20040904135931@emmanuel.net> Message-ID: w> I would be extremely interested in the 5110A with internal tape drive. There's no such thing as a 5110A. The 5110 model numbers are XYZ with X: A - APL only B - BASIC only C - APL and BASIC Y: 1 - Model 1 (with tape drive) 2 - Model 2 (without tape drive) Z: 1 - 16 kB RWS 2 - 32 kB RWS 3 - 48 kB RWS 4 - 64 kB RWS Christian From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 09:02:27 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Model 300 - OS installation Questions In-Reply-To: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> References: <18D3421A-FD12-11D8-890A-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <26c11a6404090507023c86395d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:58:37 -0400, Philippe Vachon wrote: > Hello again. > > I managed to jury rig a null modem cable for my "new" VAX (using a > phone cable, some resources I found on Google, mere hours before Jochen > posted a link to the same Google search I did :) ), using a phone cable > and an old RS232 cable. It ain't pretty, but it works. > > My next problem is how to get an OS onto this thing. I can easily > enough get the distribution CD from Encompass for Hobbyists, however, I > lack a means of getting VMS onto the machine, since it only has a TK70 > drive, 3 DSSI hard disks, and no SCSI adaptor. I am quite comfortable > with setting up over a network (having done many installs of IRIX using > Linux as a server), however, I have not found any resources on how to > do this with VMS, only with NetBSD. So, what should I do? Has anybody > successfully installed VMS using Linux as a server? Or should I invest > in a KZQSA controller and use a SUN CD-ROM drive with it (can this be > done)? Or perhaps should I invest in a DSSI CD-ROM drive? Does such a > beast exist for the VAX 4000/300, even? > > I'm relatively new to the VAX platform from an administrative > perspective, so please bear with me! > > Thanks! > > Phil. > > I would say the easiest way would be to get a vaxstation and install vms on that. Then if you set the 300 as a cluster member you can boot it and copy the image across. Dan From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Sep 5 09:37:58 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> Check these out then: BA11-M (11/03) DEC/PDP logo in glorious DEC maroon: http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg BA11-S (11/23) DEC/PDP logo in a either a darkgrey or VT100 brown background and DEC bricks and PDP font in white: http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-23/11-23-front-panel.jpg BA11-S (11/23PLUS) same as above: http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/1123PLUS.JPG I love the one in DEC maroon background! :-) Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 3 2004, 1:07, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > >>Hmmm...my BA11-N (11/03L) was resprayed evidently as there are paint >>oversprays to the control panel area (the toggle switches), but I > > didn't > >>know that the BA11-N front was actually in a single plain color.. >> >>I know that the BA11-M (11/03) has a nice DEC/PDP logo with color, > > and > >>the BA11-S (11/23) also, so I assumed that the BA11-N has too.. > > > Well, that's odd, because none of the ones I've ever seen are anything > but grey! Mine are all plain grey, no colour, as are the three I've > sold or given away in the last five years. All the ones I used to > service when I worked for a TPM company were plain grey too. > From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Sep 5 09:39:13 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413B2511.5030303@hp.com> Note that I was not talking about the color of the ENCLOSURES but the color of the DEC/PDP logo... David V. Corbin wrote: > Re: BA11 Colors.... > > > I would be very interested in seeing a picture of one of these enclosures in > anything other than the plain gray.... > > From kmwheeler at ualr.edu Sun Sep 5 10:23:31 2004 From: kmwheeler at ualr.edu (kmwheeler@ualr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: CPT-8100 ?? Message-ID: Hello all, I'm not subscribed to the list, honestly I don't have time to fiddle with classic machines, and I gave my uncle's Altair back to him... But, I found something in my parents barn -- the loft was full of stuff, and a few strange items a "friend" left when he skipped town. I've got a CPT-8100 with keyboard. The basic box seems to all be there -- two 8" drives etc. I've got no use at all for such a thing. Does anyone have any interest in this item? I know shipping will be painful, it's heavy! I really haven't done anything other than search the web to figure out what it is. I'm in Arkansas. Thanks! -Keith Wheeler From Innfosale at aol.com Sun Sep 5 12:04:50 2004 From: Innfosale at aol.com (Innfosale@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? Message-ID: Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what can be done. I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP Calculator Museum. Got a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the following reply today. I have heard of this scam being perpetrated on computer collectors in the past so I recognize it as a scam. Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may or may not be real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is illegal in GB but how would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the west coast of the US. Paxton Astoria, Oregon USA Following is the message I got today: Hello, Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also for all your efforts towards making this transaction a success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal this transaction there is an associate of mine in the US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when it clears your bank you can now send my balance by Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to you,let me have your contact information so that i can instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your name,address and phone number Please get back to me as soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know your decision regards this transaction. I am banking on my balance so that i will be able to settle my shippers here in there local office because it is cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. James Cole ===== James Cole 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way Woolmer Trading Estate Bordon,Hampshire GU35 9QF UK From ejchapel at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 13:36:06 2004 From: ejchapel at comcast.net (Ed Chapel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: aol disks Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040905113004.0205ca78@mail.comcast.net> Along with some vintage hardware and software I have an AOL disk and CD collection. A couple of boxes of this stuff. I am taking the chance that some day somebody will play one of these CD's backwards and perhaps see the devil. Hopefully I will have a copy of that CD and I can retire wealthy. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 14:08:17 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> References: <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640409051208218b92b3@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 14:15:08 EDT, innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I tried posting this from a different address and it didn't seem to get > through. If this is a double post please forgive me. I need to reply soon..... > > Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering > how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what > can be done. > > I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP Calculator Museum. Got > a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the following reply > today. I have heard of this being perpetrated on computer collectors in the > past so I recognize it as a scam. > > Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may or may not be > real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is illegal in GB but how > would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to > participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the west coast of the US. > > Paxton > Astoria > > Following is the message I got today: > > Hello, > Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also > for all your efforts towards making this transaction a > success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as > possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal > this transaction there is an associate of mine in the > US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him > to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when > it clears your bank you can now send my balance by > Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the > check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, > 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust > you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to > you,let me have your contact information so that i can > instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your > name,address and phone number Please get back to me as > soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know > your decision regards this transaction. I am banking > on my balance so that i will be able to settle my > shippers here in there local office because it is > cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. > James Cole > ===== > James Cole > 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way > Woolmer Trading Estate > Bordon,Hampshire > GU35 9QF UK > > PS: Is this a good address? > > Sounds bad to me, A check on www.royalmail.com revaled squiers kitchen sugarcraft, 42-44 Woolmer Way Total profiles ltd. 46 Woolmer way Nothing for 45 though, it does seem that is a trading estate, you could try ringing one of the above offices and speak to a manager there. I'm sure they'd be interested if people are using their business address for fraud. Dan From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 5 14:34:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: aol disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2004, at 10:41 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>> I recently got an AOL disk in a little wooden (well pressed >>>> wood) box. >>>> My brother collects them so he got that one. He likes the >>>> ones in tins too. Recently He found some in plastic >>>> bag-like containers shaped like the AOL chat guy. > > The actual AOL chat guy in a plastic bag would be much more valuable! Actually the bag itself is shaped like the AOL chat guy... > > Now other things which would have their value increased by being in > air-tight bags include........ > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Sep 5 15:09:25 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <200409051908.UAA02276@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <001d01c49384$3df74d40$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Innfogra@aol.com said: > > > James Cole > > 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way > > Woolmer Trading Estate > > Bordon,Hampshire > > GU35 9QF UK > > > > > > PS: Is this a good address? > > The address matches the Postcode. I checked with Multimap. According to www.capscan.co.uk the postcode belongs to Total Profiles Ltd 46 Woolmer Way BORDON GU35 9QF Andy From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Sep 5 15:21:21 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: simh running as root etc In-Reply-To: <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> References: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> Message-ID: <1094415681.24245.137.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Hello, On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 18:22, Vince Mulhollon wrote: > Hello fellow retrocomputing folks > > > Imagine a multiuser system, with simh pdp11 installed as root. > Now "attach lpt /etc/passwd" well you get the idea not a good > situation. Yup, that would be a problem w/ a suid solution. [-- I don't know enough about about VAX hardware to even know if this is possible, however, I'm paranoid enough to be concerned about it. :) --] My concern w/ SIMH & 'root' was more along the lines of: JoeHacker finds a VMS exploit, and now has full system priv's on the simulated VAX. Say JoeHacker can hand invalid data off to the simulated disk drive hardware that causes a stack overflow inside SIMH's simulated hardware, spawning a shell listening on some network port. That shell will have whatever privileges SIMH currently had. (In this case 'root'). I'd call that badness too. :) My solution was to hack up a patch that allowed you to change the user id, group id, and perform a chroot() system call. The idea would be: 1) put your SIMH config file somewhere outside of your chroot() jail, 2) leave SIMH mode 0755 (not setuid) 3) run SIMH as root, pointing to the config file. 4) Inside the config file, do things like so: set xq mac=xx-xx-xx-xx-xx attach xq eth0 set priv root=/opt/jail gid=-1 uid=-1 show priv load -r /rom/ka655x.bin set rq0 rauser=8192 attach rq0 /data/d0.dsk With my patch, and the above configuration, if the above exploit happens, the only thing trashed is the simulated VAX environment. The hacker is stuck inside of /opt/jail, has no permissions to modify much of anything, They might be able to steal bandwidth, but I'd rather someone steal bandwidth, than trash files. If the SIMH developers don't want to accept my patches, I guess I'll be maintaining my own copies of SIMH for a bit. . > > The reference to a kernel 2.6 feature that works around all that, > is probably a reference to the tun interfaces, the ones used by > openvpn and all that. At least that is my guess. Never tried that. There's also a capabilities linux interface, but you still end up dropping privileges. It might be in later 2.4's as well. I figured setuid()/setgid()/chroot() were more portable, and more applicable to other Unix like platforms, so that's what I went with. I'd like to see some examples utilizing the tun/tap interfaces, as I'm not 100% certain the packet sniffing method will do what I want it to. David From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 15:30:41 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Scamming the scammer" http://p-p-p-powerbook.com/ http://p-p-p-powerbook.com/files/thepowerbook.pdf Stephane On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 13:04:50 EDT, innfosale@aol.com wrote: > Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering > how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what > can be done. ... From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 5 15:46:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Paper tape In-Reply-To: <20040903035005.859A43C49@spies.com> References: <20040903035005.859A43C49@spies.com> Message-ID: <1094417171.3826.33.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 20:50, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> A CC of cards, paper tape (unused) including DEC factory fanfold. > > We could use the DEC fanfold for the computer museum PDP-1 > restoration efforts. Now this is an item you might get Ed & Co to ship to you. I have a box here, so I could photo it, and have them gather some up. In the next few days I'll photo stuff and email you a pic. From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 5 15:53:08 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040902235741.05d13eb0@enigma> References: <1094166318.5138.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.0.3.0.2.20040902235741.05d13eb0@enigma> Message-ID: <1094417587.3826.48.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 21:04, Dan Veeneman wrote: > I appreciate the fact that Tom has put a lot of time into > spelunking into the Black Hole, but for anyone else > that might be thinking of visiting, here's a report from > a friend of mine (local to Los Alamos) that checked out > the place for me: A valid take on the place. Ed and Frank don't know computer gear, nor electronics in general, but they're very knowledgeable of much of the stuff there, so if your emphasis is computers then yes, their knowledge is VERY limited. ANd it is true, pricing is erratic at best, and unfortunately prices have been going up, I think partly because fewer people are showing up to buy, mostly to ogle. No offense to Ed, but he grossly over-values some things, and tends to err on the side of too-high, when the items in question are anything electronic. However, he's usually completely fair, and prices QUITE reasonable, for components, mechanical, materials, parts, pieces, machines, etc etc. (He's got these amazing steel, glass-front lab cabinets that my Santa Fe friends find outrageous at $35 each -- they go for $150+ here in Los Angeles!) > I went to the black hole yesterday and they said > they need to see a picture of any computer you > might be looking for. I know where all of these things are (well, all the ones I've found so far :-) and will gladly tell anyone who is going up there. Hell, I even have photos of most of the places they're stored in as maps! However, it's of the "OK turn right... then left at the meat locker, right at the IBM punch..." sort of thing. Best with a cellphone in hand!) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 5 16:23:21 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <12d.4a77cdd7.2e6cb1ac@aol.com> Message-ID: The following is a known scam. I person I know here on Long Island actually fell for it (at least part way). He has been in contact with law enforcement officials. They provided him with a location to turn over all information he had [especially original mail messages with headers] I just posted him a note so I can forward this info directly to the original poster here... will let you know the results. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Innfogra@aol.com >>> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 2:15 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? >>> >>> I tried posting this from a different address and it didn't >>> seem to get through. If this is a double post please >>> forgive me. I need to reply soon..... >>> >>> >>> Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today >>> and was wondering >>> how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted >>> but not sure what >>> can be done. >>> >>> I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP >>> Calculator Museum. Got >>> a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the >>> following reply >>> today. I have heard of this being perpetrated on computer >>> collectors in the >>> past so I recognize it as a scam. >>> >>> Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may >>> or may not be >>> real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is >>> illegal in GB but how >>> would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to >>> participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the >>> west coast of the US. >>> >>> Paxton >>> Astoria >>> >>> Following is the message I got today: >>> >>> Hello, >>> Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also >>> for all your efforts towards making this transaction a >>> success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as >>> possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal >>> this transaction there is an associate of mine in the >>> US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him >>> to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when >>> it clears your bank you can now send my balance by >>> Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the >>> check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, >>> 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust >>> you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to >>> you,let me have your contact information so that i can >>> instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your >>> name,address and phone number Please get back to me as >>> soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know >>> your decision regards this transaction. I am banking >>> on my balance so that i will be able to settle my >>> shippers here in there local office because it is >>> cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. >>> James Cole >>> ===== >>> James Cole >>> 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way >>> Woolmer Trading Estate >>> Bordon,Hampshire >>> GU35 9QF UK >>> >>> >>> PS: Is this a good address? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 5 16:32:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraudulent offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040905142300.P47133@shell.lmi.net> One variant of that scam is that the "cashier's check for a lot of money" is a forgery. Many banks will declare it clear at first glance. The sucker hears from his bank that the "cashier's check for a lot of money" has cleared, and sends the merchandise, along with a bunch of money as the change/overpayment. A few days later, the bank that it was purportedly drawn on gets it, notices that it is a fake, and bounces it back. The sucker's bank then retroactively "unclears" the fake check, and holds the sucker responsible for the amount of the bogus check. The sucker is out the merchandise, the substantial change/overpayment, and bank fees. From dmabry at mich.com Sun Sep 5 18:13:02 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413B9D7E.9080109@mich.com> I know of people who "collect" those fraudulent checks and hang them on their wall. Let the scammer think you've accepted the deal. At least cost him the money of sending you a check. Often they send it overnight to get it to you quickly so you will send him the difference via Western Union or other wire transfer that can't be reversed. Certainly don't try to put his check through a bank because you will incur costs when it bounces. But then you can have fun when the scammer wants to know where his merchandise and his "change" are. At that point mention that you are having the authorities looking into the check and you need his phone number to talk to him. You will never hear from him again. It sounds like fun to me! Innfosale@aol.com wrote: > Well I got a classic fraud offer from Great Britian today and was wondering > how to deal with it. I would love to see the offeree busted but not sure what > can be done. > > I posted a HP110 outfit on the classifieds of the HP Calculator Museum. Got > a reply of interest from GB so I sent back info and got the following reply > today. I have heard of this scam being perpetrated on computer collectors in > the past so I recognize it as a scam. > > Is there any way of identifying the culprit whose name (may or may not be > real) is posted at the end of the letter. I assume this is illegal in GB but how > would you go about informing the authorities? I would be happy to > participate in a sting if that is possible. I am on the west coast of the US. > > Paxton > Astoria, Oregon > USA > > Following is the message I got today: > > Hello, > Thanks a lot for your mail and the information, also > for all your efforts towards making this transaction a > success, i really love it and wish to buy as soon as > possible. Anyway, this is how we are going to seal > this transaction there is an associate of mine in the > US who is owing me $2,500 i am going to instruct him > to send you a cashier's check for that amount,and when > it clears your bank you can now send my balance by > Westernunion. Although i know that the value of the > check is more than the price of the HP 110 outfit, > 9114 disk & 2225B Printer but i am willing to trust > you with my balance So if this offer is acceptable to > you,let me have your contact information so that i can > instruct my associate to send you a check,that is your > name,address and phone number Please get back to me as > soon as soon as you get this mail so that i can know > your decision regards this transaction. I am banking > on my balance so that i will be able to settle my > shippers here in there local office because it is > cheaper and faster.My regards to the family. > James Cole > ===== > James Cole > 42-46 James Villa, Woolmer Way > Woolmer Trading Estate > Bordon,Hampshire > GU35 9QF UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Sep 5 18:17:16 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: LTC Spec question References: Message-ID: <00a901c4939e$831abd20$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 12:13 AM Subject: Re: LTC Spec question > > > > > > W/out having the docs to hand, I would like to know the actual > > electrical specification for the LTC line as implemented in LSI-11 -type > > systems... what is the backplane (and hence the CPU, etc) expecting? > > I've looked at the PSU schemmatics for my MINC, which should be close > enough... > > > > > Waveform type? Freq range? Levels? If pulses, TTL? CMOS? Duty cycle? Rep > > rate? > > Waveform : Square wave > > Frequency : Mains frequency (50Hz or 60Hz), duty cycle doesn't seem to > matter. > > Open collector driver (pulled up in the bus terminator to +5V) > > > > > > I need to simulate the incoming LTC signal for a system that will not be > > mains powered.... in the older 11/xx systems, this was derived from one of > > the windings of the power supply transformer, then made into > > line-freq-rate pulses by the using module. > > That's how it's done in the MINC (and in the LSI11/03 prints I looked at > which show the H780 PSU). The Minc uses one section of a 339 comparator > chip connected to the secondary of a mains transformer through a suitable > resistor netowrk. > > > > > > > I'm planning on using a small naptha-burning steam engine driving a > > modified Wimshurst static generator, and then using a calibrated spark-gap > > I always prefered the catostatic. > > [OK, a joke. I have a book on making electrostatic generators and one of > them is called the catostatic. As you may have guessed by now, this > involves stroking your cat and collecting the accumulated charge in a > Leyden jar... Knowing my cat, he'd probably get rather fed up with the > whole idea...] > > -tony > I rather like old Lord Kelvin's dripping water e/s generator myself - really has an impact when demonstrated to children - electric charge from dripping water. Geoff. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 5 18:43:11 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: simh running as root etc In-Reply-To: <1094407484.24245.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <200409031743.i83Hh63g012132@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040903222223.GA1099@mulhollon.com> <413AF498.8080500@gjcp.net> <1094407484.24245.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <413BA48F.8030305@gjcp.net> David Holland wrote: > Cause SIMH does it's networking things (currently) by packet sniffing, > and most OS's don't want everyone sniffing packets, (Particularly the > ones w/ passwords in them.) ergo, you must be 'root' to sniff packets. > > David Have you seen how User Mode Linux handles this? IIRC you can run a userspace kernel, and have it talk to a networking daemon which runs as root. Obviously this gives you a lot more fine-grained control over what the UML kernel actually sees - great for honeypots, because from "outside" it looks just like an ordinary running Linux kernel. Gordon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 5 19:33:36 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: Wai-Sun Chia "Re: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo" (Sep 5, 22:37) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> Message-ID: <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 5 2004, 22:37, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Check these out then: > > BA11-M (11/03) DEC/PDP logo in glorious DEC maroon: > http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg That doesn't look original to me. > BA11-S (11/23) DEC/PDP logo in a either a darkgrey or VT100 brown > background and DEC bricks and PDP font in white: > http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-23/11-23-front-panel.jpg That's simply the result of a colour cast in a badly lit/badly exposed photo, probably taken under tungsten lighting. It looks just like mine except for the cast; mine is plain DEC grey with a black and white sticker. > BA11-S (11/23PLUS) same as above: > http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/1123PLUS.JPG Where's the colour in that? It's a standard 11T23 system, identical to the one in the next room to me -- and I can assure you that the only colour is the yellow and red on the RL02 lamps. > I love the one in DEC maroon background! :-) I think someone has adulterated it. I'm sure that's not original. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 5 20:35:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <413B9D7E.9080109@mich.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> I know of people who "collect" those fraudulent checks and >>> hang them on their wall. Let the scammer think you've >>> accepted the deal. At least cost him the money of sending >>> you a check. Often they send it overnight to get it to you >>> quickly so you will send him the difference via Western >>> Union or other wire transfer that can't be reversed. >>> I definitely do NOT recomment this approach. You will have given your identity in a very physical sense to the spammer. In the case of the person I referred to in an earlier post (who I just found out is on holiday), threats were made when he refused to cache the check [even though he offered to return it]. From dmabry at mich.com Sun Sep 5 20:35:01 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413BBEC5.1090108@mich.com> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>I know of people who "collect" those fraudulent checks and >>>>hang them on their wall. Let the scammer think you've >>>>accepted the deal. At least cost him the money of sending >>>>you a check. Often they send it overnight to get it to you >>>>quickly so you will send him the difference via Western >>>>Union or other wire transfer that can't be reversed. >>>> > > > I definitely do NOT recomment this approach. You will have given your > identity in a very physical sense to the spammer. In the case of the person > I referred to in an earlier post (who I just found out is on holiday), > threats were made when he refused to cache the check [even though he offered > to return it]. > > I've never heard of those kind of threats, but I know many people who have had fun jerking the scammers around. Recommend whatever you want. If it were me I'd have fun. -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Sep 4 15:45:29 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 13, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: <200409040308.i8438A3c015914@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409040308.i8438A3c015914@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: ard wrote: >I always prefered the catostatic. > >[OK, a joke. I have a book on making electrostatic generators and one of >them is called the catostatic. As you may have guessed by now, this >involves stroking your cat and collecting the accumulated charge in a >Leyden jar... Knowing my cat, he'd probably get rather fed up with the >whole idea...] > >-tony I can't resist. If he's fed up, get a cat wrestler to teach you a good hode to put on him so he won't escape. (Get it? cat-hode?) Of course, that only works on a young cat - never anode one. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 5 22:07:40 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 13, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> I can't resist. If he's fed up, get a cat wrestler to teach >>> you a good hode to put on him so he won't escape. (Get it? >>> cat-hode?) >>> >>> Of course, that only works on a young cat - never anode one. >>> -- >>> - Mark >>> 210-xxx-6025, page 888-xxx-0967 Oh the temptation to call and groan....... From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 5 21:58:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094417592.3826.50.camel@fiche> On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 17:07, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> A CC of cards, paper tape (unused) including DEC factory fanfold. > DEFINITELY interested in the paper tape if some is avail! It's ALL available -- but you have to go there to get it. Just got back this AM, 1800 miles/2900km round trip to retrieve the LGP-21 peripherals. I know I said some months ago that I'd bring back stuff to LA and re-sell for cost, but it didn't work out that way, sorry. The car was totally full, and the checking account totally empty -- pricing is erratic, let's say. Going to the Black Hole isn't "shopping", unfortunately. You'll need literally days to find the stuff tucked into the back of shelves. I honestly suggest, without exaggeration, that you plan on spending two full, 8-hour days at the place. Fly into Albuquerque (ABQ), rent a car. Get a motel in Santa Fe (Los Alamos is too weird to have one). He's open M - F, most Saturdays, more or less 8a - 5p. It's unheated, so in the winter it's COLD (meaning 0c or less). If stuff is to big (or scary to airline Hopeless Security) to pack as luggage, bring to a retail shipper like Mailboxes Etc. I suggest two days, as it's certain on the 2nd you'll want to go back "to look at that thing from yesterday". SF/LA NM is also a beautiful area, make a vacation of it. If you're from the East Coast (US) it'll be utterly amazing and alien. It's quite rural, and the locals to NOT move fast, so leave big-city hurry at home... :-) From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Sep 5 23:48:19 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Someone pays $399 for IBM Dos 1.0 In-Reply-To: <001d01c4921d$1342d370$36406b43@66067007> References: <001d01c4921d$1342d370$36406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20040905234819.20d921a9.sastevens@earthlink.net> If the buyer wanted to run binaries on DOS 1.0 I have the IBM Basic Compiler 1.0 manual/diskette set here. I should someday build a hello.com file of some sort and see if it runs on current Windows OSes. I imagine the 1.0 developer tools are more scarce than the OS. I have Pascal 1.0 also. It's all creaky old stuff, designed to do compiler passes on 'high end' (for the time) dual floppy drive systems. On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:18:22 -0500 "Keys" wrote: > Here's the url > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62054&item=5119316334 > Uses mainecomputermuseum ? > From sastevens at earthlink.net Mon Sep 6 00:18:17 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 13, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: <200409040308.i8438A3c015914@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040906001817.3818857e.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:45:29 -0500 Mark Tapley wrote: > ard wrote: > > >I always prefered the catostatic. > > > >[OK, a joke. I have a book on making electrostatic generators and one > >of them is called the catostatic. As you may have guessed by now, > >this involves stroking your cat and collecting the accumulated charge > >in a Leyden jar... Knowing my cat, he'd probably get rather fed up > >with the whole idea...] > > > >-tony > > I can't resist. If he's fed up, get a cat wrestler to teach you a > good hode to put on him so he won't escape. (Get it? cat-hode?) > > Of course, that only works on a young cat - never anode one. > -- > - Mark > 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 I have always been a strong advocate of equal-time. As such, I on occasion, at the workplace, advocate that we set up a Pro-Static workstation. It would be a workbench with a cats-fur work surface and all glass tools. Workers would be instructed to wear the special polyester smock while working at that station. Obviously, it would be designated as the workstation for servicing vacuum-tube equipment (we have some where I am presently working, including a General Radio Megohm Bridge that sees daily use). From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 01:09:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <413B9D7E.9080109@mich.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > Certainly don't try to put his check through a bank because you will > incur costs when it bounces. But then you can have fun when the scammer > wants to know where his merchandise and his "change" are. At that point > mention that you are having the authorities looking into the check and > you need his phone number to talk to him. You will never hear from him > again. It sounds like fun to me! Better yet, say the check never arrived and request he send another. Then keep making up successive excuses ("the dog ate it") until he throws his hands up in frustration. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 01:14:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever Message-ID: I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't cut up my esophagus when I drink it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 01:16:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <413BBEC5.1090108@mich.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > I've never heard of those kind of threats, but I know many people who > have had fun jerking the scammers around. Recommend whatever you want. > If it were me I'd have fun. Ooh, ooh, tell him you'd like it if he could send naked pictures of his wife along with the "check" and you'll reciprocate! Even worse, ask for naked pictures of minors, and if he obliges you can then have him nailed for child pornography if/when he's caught. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave at naffnet.org.uk Mon Sep 6 01:38:36 2004 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413C05EC.5010804@naffnet.org.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes >by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a >container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container >and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't >cut up my esophagus when I drink it? > > > Not a nice way to die, with or without glass... I seem to remember that you could filter it through a thin chamois leather, if the 30 years since that particular science teacher haven't dulled my memory too much. Can't hurt, I suppose. Cheers, Dave. From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Sep 6 01:41:23 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a > container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container > and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't > cut up my esophagus when I drink it? Ya sure ya ain't been *sniffing* it...???? Don't let them damn EPAnazis read this - there'll be a HazNat team camped out for a year at the cordoned-off and domed-over hole in the ground what used to be that building - of course now it's a SuperFund Site - our Tax Dollars hard at work... As for filtering Hg - just decant it slowly and carefully from one container to another - you'll get most of it - then discard the remaining residue in a Gummint Approved Fashion - lest you attract the Unwanted Attention of Herr UberGeneral AshKrofft and his Modernische ShutzStaffen... Heil^H^H^H^H Cheers John From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 02:45:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, John Lawson wrote: > Ya sure ya ain't been *sniffing* it...???? Actually, I've been snorting it up a nostril and then spitting it back out through my mouth. FUN! > As for filtering Hg - just decant it slowly and carefully from one > container to another - you'll get most of it - then discard the remaining > residue in a Gummint Approved Fashion - lest you attract the Unwanted > Attention of Herr UberGeneral AshKrofft and his Modernische > ShutzStaffen... > > Heil^H^H^H^H Cheers Ja voll, Herr Lawson! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 02:50:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Cool book Message-ID: Say, I found a mighty swell book today at the local ham swap. Title: The "Compulator" Book - Building Super Calculators & Minicomputer Hardware with Calculator Chips (How to mate the COMPuter with the calcULATOR) by R. P. Haviland. Several copies are available on ABE, Alibris, etc. NeAt-O! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 02:57:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: The Aesthetics of Computer Viruses - I love you [rev.eng] (fwd) Message-ID: I thought this might be interesting to some... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:17:47 +0200 From: Alessandro Ludovico To: a.ludovico@agora.it Subject: The Aesthetics of Computer Viruses - I love you [rev.eng] I love you [rev.eng] The Aesthetics of Computer Viruses. German Exhibition on International Tour Providence (USA) / Copenhagen: The return of "Made in Germany" - "I love you [rev.eng]" (rev.eng = reverse engineering), the extension of the successful exhibition in Frankfurt devoted to the phenomenon of computer viruses, is going on an international tour. It can be seen from September 11th to October 4th at the renowned private Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, USA, and then from October 7th to November 14th in the Museum for Communication in Copenhagen, Denmark. Nowadays computer viruses are an integral part of our computerised everyday life. The damage to national economies caused by the more than 90,000 viruses that have already appeared worldwide runs into many billions. The independent US research institute Computer Economics puts the damage in the case of "I love you" in 2001 alone at 8.75 billion US $. But not all computer viruses are harmful. Computer viruses can also result from experimentation with (programming) language. "I love you [rev.eng]" is the first exhibition worldwide dedicated to the phenomena of computer security and computer viruses, and takes up both these aspects to carry out a controversial experiment with contemporary culture that goes far beyond current vehement debates on hacking. "I love you [rev.eng]" is divided into political, technical and historical areas of investigation and focuses on the controversial positions of security experts and hackers, of net artists and programmers, of literature experts and code poets. What actually is a computer virus? Who creates them, and why? What sort of world is hiding behind these everyday phenomena? The exhibition provides background information, presents artworks, and reveals the role of computer viruses as a destructive force and economic threat as well as an inspiration for creative art. "I love you [rev.eng]" is conceived and presented by the cultural organisation digitalcraft.org based in Frankfurt, Germany. "digitalcraft.org sees itself as a future oriented model for a changing understanding of cultural communication," says Franziska Nori, the leader of the digitalcraft.org team. "The big question being raised by the exhibition as to what digital culture is today and will become in the age of the information society doesn't only determine contemporary artistic and cultural production, but is also intended to motivate cultural institutions to rethink their practice and their own role." What can visitors to the "I love you [rev.eng]" exhibition expect? - Computer viruses in close-up. At isolated terminals ("in the zoo"), visitors can activate infected data with viruses like "Sasser" or "Suicide" and force computers to close down. A presentation of the 30 year history of computer viruses and their technical development offers background information on the development of this phenomenon right up to the present day. - Virus outbreaks in real time. An interactive 3D game world has been developed specially for the exhibition to allow visitors, by operating a joystick, to experience in real time the otherwise invisible processes involved in a global virus outbreak. Visitors can also click together their own viruses using a computer with so called virus construction kits like the ones often used by budding hackers to flood the Internet with evernew viruses. - The web artists 0100101110101101.ORG and epidemiC present the computer virus "biennale.py", which, over and above being a self-reproducing program, has been declared as a social work of art. The work "The Lovers" by the British artist Sneha Solankis creates, using two mutually-infected computers, an analogy between the distorted communication between the computers and that between lovers. '"I love you" [?but do you know what love really means?]' by the artist Caleb Waldorf is an installation video montage reflecting how media represents the phenomenon of viruses and how governments and corporate entities react to the increasing threat of cyber terrorism. - Insights into the heterogeneous culture of hackers with a broad spectrum of film material created in the scene itself, including "Freedom Downtime" by the New York hacker community 2600, and "Hippies from Hell". Historical and current material provide insights into the development of the scene from its origins in the late 50s, when the term "hacker" was a neutral word for students at the MIT who lived out their fascination for logical tasks and enthusiasm for understanding the new computers, to the criminalisation of what is now known as the VX Scene, to the commercialisation of the phenomenon, supplemented by a wealth of interviews in which various virus authors talk about their motives. - The aesthetics of the source code. Apart from its pure functionality, a program code (which computer viruses are based on, just like any other computer program) can also be an aesthetic and artistic creation. "Obfuscated C Codes" are examples of such highly virtuoso programming. The exhibition presents two exceptional contributions from the "International Obfuscated C Code Contest" that has been held regularly since 1984, the three-dimensional flight simulator by C. Banks (1998) and the Saitou.c Code by Don Yang (2000), a program with a graphic layout that generates a set of mutually reproducing programs. - Program code as language. Here, comparisons are drawn between traditional poetry and contemporary code poetry. The unbroken line from the Carmina Figurata of antiquity and the Middle Ages via the concrete poetry of the 19th Century to modern poets and contemporary code poets show a coherence of form that reveals the source code as a new material for contemporary poetry. - Internet security. Security concepts and current methods for preventing global attacks on the network are presented for an interested audience. Through a collaboration with experts at Brown University's Watson Institute for International Studies and researchers from Symantec - the market leader in internet security - digitalcraft.org further delved into the political, economic and social actuality of this subject. At both locations, the exhibition will be complemented by symposiums, in the USA with the theme "The Power and Pathology of Networks". The cultural organisation digitalcraft.org is taking up with this project the challenge of exploring complex virtual phenomena and presenting them in a visual way. "I love you [rev.eng]" (rev.eng = reverse engineering) is the revamped and expanded version of the initial exhibition which was successfully shown in June 2002 in the Museum for Applied Art in Frankfurt and in February 2003 at the "transmediale.03" in Berlin. Further information on all exhibits, the digital version of the exhibition catalogue and extensive pictorial material can be found on the project's website www.digitalcraft.org/Iloveyou (+ press section) or direct from: Dr. Gabriele Reinartz PR and communication Phone: +49 (0)171 / 8 34 56 48 Fax: +49 (0)69 / 48 00 61 32 E-Mail: gabriele.reinartz@digitalcraft.org http://www.digitalcraft.org http://www.infopeace.org http://www.watsoninstitute.org http://www.ptt-museum.dk http://www.symantec.com Brief profile of digitalcraft.org digitalcraft.org was founded in 2003 as a spin-off of the "digitalcraft" section of the Museum for Applied Art in Frankfurt am Main (2000-2003). Its mission is to research and document fast-moving trends in everyday digital culture and to present them to the public. Since 2003, digitalcraft.org has been an independent cultural organization under the direction of Franziska Nori. Its work includes interdisciplinary exhibition projects such as "adonnaM.mp3" (2003) on the phenomenon of file sharing, "Origami Digital" (2003) on the digital demo scene, public lectures and publications, and consultancies for public institutions and museums. The subjects it explores reflect the rapid development in communications technologies and methods and their significance for modern society. Brief profile of the Watson Institute for International Studies Brown University in Rhode Island is one of the most renowned private Universities in the USA. One of its associated institutes is the Watson Institute for International Studies, named after its founder, which is dedicated to interdisciplinary studies. Under the direction of Prof. James Der Derian, the "Information Technology, War and Peace Project" has been started up to make a targeted analysis of the potential impacts of network structures in the globalised society. In September, "InfoTechWarPeace", a new, one-year research project, is starting up with the heading, "The Power and Pathology of Net-works". The central matters it will be dealing with involve analysis of the questions: What new forms of global security and governance are needed to manage the potential, allocate the resources, and reduce the risks of networks? How do we assess the dangers of global interconnectivity (networked terrorism, computer viruses, pandemics) against the vaunted benefits (increased transparency, higher productivity, global interdependence)? The research project will be inaugurated with a symposium and the "I love you [rev.eng]" exhibition. -- Alessandro Ludovico Neural.it - http://neural.it/ daily updated news + reviews English.Neural.it - http://english.neural.it/ Neural printed magazine - http://neural.it/n/nultimoe.htm From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 6 06:11:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? Message-ID: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an RML380Z with Econet network support (rather than the usual coaxial that RML used for its CHAIN network)? I picked up an SJ Research MDFS Econet fileserver the other day which I'll have running at the museum. However, the docs at one point (and one point only, it seems so far) mention RML380Z fileservers and 380Z machines with Econet. (I've got an RML380Z fileserver, but naturally it has a CHAIN network board and not Econet!) As I collect Torch, Acorn and RML stuff (and Torchnet is at least electrically compatible with Acorn's Econet) it's of particular interest as it implies one day I might be able to connect machines from all three manufacturers. I've never seen mention of Econet support in any of RML's documentation though, so have a feeling it was maybe a product that never saw the light of day... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 6 06:15:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094469331.4415.50.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 23:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a > container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container > and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't > cut up my esophagus when I drink it? Now I've got a serious case of the giggles. Well done! :-) J. From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 6 09:22:08 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: LTC Spec question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, John Lawson wrote: > Anyway, to further clarify - this particular 11/73 is destined for > (automotive) mobile roles, and therefore has had it's PSU replaced w/one > that was made quite recently, albeit for computers a few generations more > evolved than the DEC Iron. Also it is desired to be able to run the LTC at > 100 Htz as well. Kewl! "Powered by PDP-11" bumper stickers soon to be available! :) (hey Bob... you REALLY must install one of those in your truck, and have Debee use that as a packet radio relay ;-) > I am tasked with simulating the LTC signal, a simple matter, but I > haven't the actual electrical spec for this circuit, thus my question. > There will be no mains reference available. > > Thanks for the fact that the LTC line is pulled up to 5V at the > terminator. That's a big chunk of the interface question out of the > way... I think Qbus does fairly simple bus specs... high at 2.4V, and low at ground to 0.4V or somesuch? Its in the Handbooks, John... those on the shelf on your right hand side... :) --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 6 09:45:11 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:55 2005 Subject: WANTED: DEC MXV11-BF (M7195) Message-ID: Hi all, For a project I need one of the above beasties. If you have one (or several ;-) and could be coerced into parting with them, contact me off-list and we'll agree on terms .. Thankee, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Mon Sep 6 10:10:57 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Classic typesetting machine - UK Message-ID: <200409061610.57949.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> Fancy one of these? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=162&item=5120268604&rd=1 Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Sep 6 11:15:11 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever Message-ID: Vacuum filtration with a paper filter will separate this. Pax Astoria From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 12:43:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Vacuum filtration with a paper filter will separate this. You mean I suck it through a piece of paper somehow? What type of paper? Will a coffee filter do? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Sep 6 13:28:41 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever Message-ID: <42.5762c5c9.2e6e0659@aol.com> Yes, a coarse coffe filter will do for glass shards. Hg will sit on top of the filter unless vacuum is applied. You can use a vacuum cleaner as a source. I think that would provide enough vacuum but you need an airtight path. A lab flask with a vacuum tap, cork and a funnel is best. Paxton Astoria, Oregon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 6 15:05:46 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64040906061322d4dc42@mail.gmail.com> References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64040906061322d4dc42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1094501146.4415.121.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-09-06 at 14:13 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > Turned this up on google : > > MACE system > > REGARDING Mr Taurin's letter (Micromail, October 1983) concerning the > use of 380Z disc drives in a network of BBC Micros, MACE > (Microelectronics and Computers in Education) have a network which > will allow up to seven BBC Micros to use a 380Z as a file server and > as a printer. Ta for finding that. I contacted someone else who has an MDFS Econet fileserver, and interestingly they have two releases of the documentation. The 1987 version is like mine, and mentions RML380Z machines with Econet. By the 1992 release, the relevant section has been rewritten and the references removed. (Of course by 1992 RML were presumably offering Nimbus machines and the 380Z/480Z line was dead) I wonder if Econet for the 380Z was vapourware? I'm not sure when RML first released their CHAIN network (and thus the proprietary thin-wire network boards for the 380Z). Makes me wonder if there was a point in history when RML were considering using Econet - somewhere around 1987 - and instead built their own proprietary network... Info that's lost in the mists of time I suppose! :-/ cheers, Jules From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 6 15:45:03 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:43:36 PDT." Message-ID: <200409062045.i86Kj3Nw018689@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > >> Vacuum filtration with a paper filter will separate this. > >You mean I suck it through a piece of paper somehow? What type of paper? >Will a coffee filter do? Sellam, you suprise me. Have you never made your own drugs? http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychedelic_guide.html I recommend taking an undergraduate course (or at least the lab) in organic chemistry first. :-) ("no first hand experience myself, I just read about it in a book...") I'd also recommend, "The chemistry of Indoles" but it's not nearly as hands on. -brad From lucerof at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 5 16:13:03 2004 From: lucerof at sbcglobal.net (Frank Lucero) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Corvus equipment Message-ID: Hello there, Noticed a post about the coruvs equipment you wanted to get to a good home. I was wondering if it is still available? I am an avid collector and will take good care of the equipment. Let me know, Frank... From KParker at workcover.com Sun Sep 5 18:30:28 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: xenix Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7AEB@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Do a hunt on the net - I downloaded some disc images about 2 or 3 years ago for XENIX for the TRS80 Model 12 or Model 16B - the site had heaps of OS's for old machines (might ring a bell with someone) ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of pzachary@sasquatch.com Sent: Thursday, 2 September 2004 12:15 PM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: xenix What version Xenix? what application are you using and do you have the media for that? Xenix is not freely available, but there are some unopened copies floating around in the computer junk shops and perhaps ebay. Pavl_ > Hi > I am trying to locate XENIX install disks > would you know where to look ? > I am helping a friend get a cnc machine up > something made by cybermation > > Any help would greatly appreciated > > Regards > > Ephraim Schoenfeld > > > > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From vze4x2vx at verizon.net Sun Sep 5 19:28:38 2004 From: vze4x2vx at verizon.net (vze4x2vx@verizon.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Silent 700 model 703 Message-ID: <20040906002838.VEND1210.out007.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Hello, I am looking for a Texas Instruments Silent 700, model 703. Do you know where I might find one? Rebecca Meyer From news at computercollector.com Sun Sep 5 22:16:32 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM Message-ID: <20040906031632.52217.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> What's the web site? From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Sep 5 23:44:05 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: [rescue] VAX 11/780 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413BEB15.9080706@hp.com> Forwarding in the hopes of saving the 11/780.. Jeff Workman wrote: > I hardly ever have time to read this list anymore, but I that somebody > here might be interested in this: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5121408138&rd=1 > > > -- > Jeff Workman | jworkman@pimpworks.org | http://www.pimpworks.org > _______________________________________________ > rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > From news at computercollector.com Mon Sep 6 00:15:43 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Did anyone attend this event? Message-ID: <20040906051543.16601.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.fresnobee.com/24hour/nation/story/1624774p-9321321c.html From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 08:13:07 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? In-Reply-To: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a64040906061322d4dc42@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:11:05 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an RML380Z with Econet network > support (rather than the usual coaxial that RML used for its CHAIN > network)? > > I picked up an SJ Research MDFS Econet fileserver the other day which > I'll have running at the museum. However, the docs at one point (and one > point only, it seems so far) mention RML380Z fileservers and 380Z > machines with Econet. (I've got an RML380Z fileserver, but naturally it > has a CHAIN network board and not Econet!) > > As I collect Torch, Acorn and RML stuff (and Torchnet is at least > electrically compatible with Acorn's Econet) it's of particular interest > as it implies one day I might be able to connect machines from all three > manufacturers. > > I've never seen mention of Econet support in any of RML's documentation > though, so have a feeling it was maybe a product that never saw the > light of day... > > cheers > > Jules > > Turned this up on google : MACE system REGARDING Mr Taurin's letter (Micromail, October 1983) concerning the use of 380Z disc drives in a network of BBC Micros, MACE (Microelectronics and Computers in Education) have a network which will allow up to seven BBC Micros to use a 380Z as a file server and as a printer. I have used this sytem for some time and find it an excellent one and quite reasonably priced. Apart from this single, and may I say uncharacteristic, error, I have found your magazine to be the best on the market. Indeed the articles on Body Building are especially useful and other periodicals are particularly weak in this area. - J.A.McBride, Deramore School, Belfast. That's it i'm afraid. Dan From gurkentoeter at t-online.de Mon Sep 6 10:28:19 2004 From: gurkentoeter at t-online.de (gurkentoeter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: MECOS frequency device Message-ID: <000c01c49426$25333ec0$0300a8c0@router> do you remember your posting? : No the LED is in the chassis. I started thinking it might be some sort of heart device timer as the deceased former owner of the auctioned items was quite elderly. I guess you could use it as a timer strobe. Lawrence > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > Likely way off topic, but I acquired some sort of frequency device in > > an auction junk box. It's a well machined device made by MECOS, made > > in W.Germant. It's about 2" square by 1/2" powered by a Li. battery > > and has micro-switches labelled 3 hz, 7.8 hz, 14.0 hz and a small led > > that flashes at the selected frequency. Anyone have any idea what it > > might be ? > > > > A search turned up that MECOS makes Active Magnetic Bearings and > > control boards and programs. > > Could this be some sort of timing device used for calibrating the speed of > something? Is the led separate from the chassis? > > -Toth > well, i bought a mecos at the jumble sale...i had no idea what it is. i serches the i-net and the only interesting i found was your posting. but: now i know!! : its a device for the magnetical field therapy similar to the MEDICUR ( http://www.magnetfeldtherapie-2000.de/common/pulsierende-magnetfeldtherapie/medicur.html) i am sorry, but the page is in german... i am german too, so i hope you excuse my bad english.... greetings, daniel From bkotaska at charter.net Mon Sep 6 14:41:52 2004 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: MI8E Schematics anyone? Message-ID: <000c01c49449$8f7bdf80$0300a8c0@ath700> Hi all, Does anyone have a printset for the PDP8 MI8E bootloader module (M847)? Checked all the usual sources and came up dry. Thanks, Bill From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 15:32:55 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? In-Reply-To: <1094501146.4415.121.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64040906061322d4dc42@mail.gmail.com> <1094501146.4415.121.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a64040906133214996363@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:05:46 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-09-06 at 14:13 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > Turned this up on google : > > > > MACE system > > > > REGARDING Mr Taurin's letter (Micromail, October 1983) concerning the > > use of 380Z disc drives in a network of BBC Micros, MACE > > (Microelectronics and Computers in Education) have a network which > > will allow up to seven BBC Micros to use a 380Z as a file server and > > as a printer. > > Ta for finding that. I contacted someone else who has an MDFS Econet > fileserver, and interestingly they have two releases of the > documentation. The 1987 version is like mine, and mentions RML380Z > machines with Econet. By the 1992 release, the relevant section has been > rewritten and the references removed. (Of course by 1992 RML were > presumably offering Nimbus machines and the 380Z/480Z line was dead) > > I wonder if Econet for the 380Z was vapourware? I'm not sure when RML > first released their CHAIN network (and thus the proprietary thin-wire > network boards for the 380Z). Makes me wonder if there was a point in > history when RML were considering using Econet - somewhere around 1987 - > and instead built their own proprietary network... > > Info that's lost in the mists of time I suppose! :-/ > > cheers, > > Jules > > I read that as a third party board which was available and worked well. It came from here (I should of put that in the first post) http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/themicrouser/micromail/01-11.htm Maybe you could speak to them and see if they remember, it was 10 years ago though. Dan Dan From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Sep 6 16:03:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409062045.i86Kj3Nw018689@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Sellam, you suprise me. Have you never made your own drugs? >>> >>> http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychedelic_guide.html >>> Now where does one go to sign up as a volunteer test subject..... Was a participant in a sleep deprivation study back in 1979. Was quite interesting! Makes a single or double all-nighter seem almost easy. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 16:03:14 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Someone pays $399 for IBM Dos 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20040905234819.20d921a9.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <001d01c4921d$1342d370$36406b43@66067007> <20040905234819.20d921a9.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040906135805.G59995@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Scott Stevens wrote: > If the buyer wanted to run binaries on DOS 1.0 I have the IBM Basic > Compiler 1.0 manual/diskette set here. I should someday build a > hello.com file of some sort and see if it runs on current Windows OSes. > I imagine the 1.0 developer tools are more scarce than the OS. I have > Pascal 1.0 also. It's all creaky old stuff, designed to do compiler > passes on 'high end' (for the time) dual floppy drive systems. The FORTRAN 1.0, BASIC 1.0, etc. were written using the Pascal. The author of the Pascal compiler (Bob Wallace) recommended never using the Pascal run-time library. The FORTRAN was OK for teaching beginning programming classes, but the code that it produced was slower than interpreted BASIC. The old tools are pretty easy to find. I have MASM 1.0 handy, and could maybe dig out some of the others. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 6 16:25:02 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: MECOS frequency device In-Reply-To: <000c01c49426$25333ec0$0300a8c0@router> References: <000c01c49426$25333ec0$0300a8c0@router> Message-ID: <413CD5AE.6070205@gjcp.net> >> >>> Likely way off topic, but I acquired some sort of frequency device in >>>an auction junk box. It's a well machined device made by MECOS, made >>>in W.Germant. It's about 2" square by 1/2" powered by a Li. battery >>>and has micro-switches labelled 3 hz, 7.8 hz, 14.0 hz and a small led >>>that flashes at the selected frequency. Anyone have any idea what it >>>might be ? >>> Those sound awfully like brain wave frequencies. Can you plug anything else in? Like maybe a pair of sunglasses with LEDs in the lenses? Gordon. From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 6 16:28:46 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: anybody have PS/2 reference disketes? References: <20040906051543.16601.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <080201c49458$7e9148e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Anybody here have or know of a mirror of PS/2 reference diskettes? I'm looking for one now. Too bad Sridhar is gone from the list. If you have some let me know. A re-visit to this once handy site: ftp://ftp.pc.ibm.com/pub/pccbbs/refdisks/ yielded nothing now, as if they've taken it down. John A. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 6 17:06:25 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Black Hole photos & LGP junk Message-ID: <1094508381.19461.43.camel@fiche.wps.comm> http://wps.com/temp/Black-Hole-02-Sep-2004/ Just a few photos I took. The ND812 (not 811) is visible, the CDP1802 thingies, some Gray Era IBM, etc. Also a pic of Ed (left) and Frank. The search warrant from the latest harrassment [1]. THe LGP-21 at home (mine). The specialized LGP Flexowriter, changes not restricted to keyboard and charset. (Note the black keys -- those of course are the machine's order codes (instructions), eg. "B" is "BRING" (load accumulator from memory). Imagine you have 400 transistors arranged as a calculator, and NO SOFTWARE OF ANY KIND. The hardware is arranged such that, when the machine is executing an INPUT instruction, if you type the following keys B 1 2 0 3 ' the bit pattern generated by those keystrokes *IS* the 'BRING 1203' instruction. Voila! Who needs an assembler or compiler?! The trailing ' character is decoded -- by the INPUT instruction hardware! -- to mean 'stop shuffling characters into the accumulator and proceed with the next instruction in memory' which has the unpleasant side effects that you cannot input ordinary text from the keyboard into the machine, nor input the ' character at all. Every character input must be terminated with ' (aka "CONDITIONAL STOP"). So much for text editing on an LGP-xx machine (a typewriter and salaried secretary was cheaper). If you are clever though, and need to input a data table, say, into a running program, you do so by arranging the data as 'instructions' that go directly into memory, and not input and handled by the target software. At 2500 instructions/sec this is umm helpful. (I'm surprised the space key wasn't assigned this function, but I guess text input wasn't seen to have much use, and debugging with spaces would be a lot harder than '.) tomj [1] Ed's a big anti-Lab (LANL) activist and crank letter writer. During the Wen Ho Lee fiasco, Ed took some old 5" hard disk and put a SECRET sticker on it, left it on his desk (you can see in the photo what that looks like...). Pretty standard junkyard humor. Mr. Lee visited Ed (who was a big supporter during the mess) after jail, so Ed gets to say "Hey Wen, we found your disk drive"). Fast forward to July 04 -- "disk drives missing from the lab!". Likely some Ed-detractor (there are many up there) called the FBI, who shows up one day, and basically takes the joke-SECRET-disk, plus some old cartridge tape. The search warrant was dropped by the next day (so much for procedure). So of course the best recourse is to put SECRET stickers on everything -- which of course Ed has done. (Reported with a lot less fanfare was the later discovery that no disk drives were in fact missing from the allegedly unwatched safe, only some of those fancy inventory stickers, which were determined to have not been applied to any property. The entire episode proving that their system was WORKING, in that they were in fact tracable, after an interval. Anyone who's worked with this sort of property tracing system knows that this is exactly how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't make for glamorous news.) (As an aside, the TV news from Albuquerque said that this year's balloon festival (a zillion annual hot-air balloons ... big event) will have tighter security, apparently to prevent 'terrists' from hijacking them? Using them to bombard citizenry?!) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 17:07:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409062045.i86Kj3Nw018689@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > Sellam, you suprise me. Have you never made your own drugs? Well, does the kind you grow count? :) > http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychedelic_guide.html Sweet! Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check that out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 6 17:08:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: xenix In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7AEB@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Do a hunt on the net - I downloaded some disc images about 2 or 3 years > ago for XENIX for the TRS80 Model 12 or Model 16B - the site had heaps > of OS's for old machines (might ring a bell with someone) That sounds like Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site: http://www.trs-80.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 6 17:24:28 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003001c49460$46c23340$7dc3033e@gamemachine> you could try asking on the BBC mailing list.(if you aint already on it :D) the link for it is here http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/bbc/netresource.php3 i'm sure some1 on there would know. regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? > > Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an RML380Z with Econet network > support (rather than the usual coaxial that RML used for its CHAIN > network)? > > I picked up an SJ Research MDFS Econet fileserver the other day which > I'll have running at the museum. However, the docs at one point (and one > point only, it seems so far) mention RML380Z fileservers and 380Z > machines with Econet. (I've got an RML380Z fileserver, but naturally it > has a CHAIN network board and not Econet!) > > As I collect Torch, Acorn and RML stuff (and Torchnet is at least > electrically compatible with Acorn's Econet) it's of particular interest > as it implies one day I might be able to connect machines from all three > manufacturers. > > I've never seen mention of Econet support in any of RML's documentation > though, so have a feeling it was maybe a product that never saw the > light of day... > > cheers > > Jules > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 03/09/2004 From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 6 18:37:45 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040906131135.04a9c4e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes >by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a >container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container >and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't >cut up my esophagus when I drink it? Sip it very slowly, enjoy every drop -- just leave the last bit in the glass. Otherwise, you could try things progressively -- filter it through 1 layer of cheesecloth, then 2, then 3 until a) you're sure all the glass is gone, or b) the quicksilver refuses to go through the filter. Watch out -- if you have silver fillings, the quicksilver might leave a weird taste in your mouth when it bonds to the silver! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 6 19:16:55 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Old DOS games... In-Reply-To: <20040904021611.GC15779@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > How ultra-cheap? (I have one minus PSU, HDD frame...) I don't know. How about super-mega cheap? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 20:26:08 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040906182528.U64466@shell.lmi.net> If you don't strain it, then at least chew thoroughly. From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Sep 6 22:10:30 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber Message-ID: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I'm trying to revive a keyboard (integrated into a vintage computer so it's kinda important) - this is the kind where there's a PCB with lots of "pads" in the scanning matrix, and the keys push a little pad of "conductive rubber" down onto the PCB pads to make the connection. Several of the keys on this keyboard require excessive pressure to make contact - I've tried cleaning the pads, and (gently) the surface of the rubber, however it appears that the rubber has increased in resistance. The good keys measure 200-300 ohms from one end of the conductive rubber pad to the other with only mild pressure - the bad keys measure 5k-10k unless you really squeeze them - under pressure they drop to 1k - 2k, which appears to be barely enough to trigger a detection. Anyone know what the failure mode is? I though perhaps the rubber bits had cracked, however this does not appear to be the case. Anyone have any tips/tricks to fix this problem? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 6 18:24:19 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040907032003.BLGH18869.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > Hi Guys, > > I'm trying to revive a keyboard (integrated into a vintage computer so > it's kinda important) - this is the kind where there's a PCB with lots of > "pads" in the scanning matrix, and the keys push a little pad of "conductive > rubber" down onto the PCB pads to make the connection. This design is still common in remotes. That where you will get new pads from. Cutting off old and gluing good conductive pads on is matter of excerise up to yours. Oh, the failure mode losing conducivitiy in pads themselves like this is really common too. This what we had to replace remotes or repair them with good pads from another in our TV shop. We have about six legal size filing boxes full of those remotes. Cheers, Wizard From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 6 22:47:16 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Black Hole photos & LGP junk In-Reply-To: <1094508381.19461.43.camel@fiche.wps.comm> References: <1094508381.19461.43.camel@fiche.wps.comm> Message-ID: >http://wps.com/temp/Black-Hole-02-Sep-2004/ I think I'm glad I'm no where near there :^) That place looks like just way to much fun! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Sep 6 22:56:37 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Cool book References: Message-ID: <010401c4948e$ac6fee20$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas folks? thanks ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 12:50 AM Subject: Cool book > > Say, I found a mighty swell book today at the local ham swap. > > Title: The "Compulator" Book - Building Super Calculators & Minicomputer > Hardware with Calculator Chips (How to mate the COMPuter with the > calcULATOR) by R. P. Haviland. Several copies are available on ABE, > Alibris, etc. > > NeAt-O! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 6 23:00:12 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: MECOS frequency device In-Reply-To: <413CD5AE.6070205@gjcp.net> References: <000c01c49426$25333ec0$0300a8c0@router> <413CD5AE.6070205@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <413D324C.6060400@mdrconsult.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>> >>>> Likely way off topic, but I acquired some sort of frequency device in >>>> an auction junk box. It's a well machined device made by MECOS, made >>>> in W.Germant. It's about 2" square by 1/2" powered by a Li. battery >>>> and has micro-switches labelled 3 hz, 7.8 hz, 14.0 hz and a small led >>>> that flashes at the selected frequency. Anyone have any idea what it >>>> might be ? >>>> > > Those sound awfully like brain wave frequencies. Can you plug anything > else in? Like maybe a pair of sunglasses with LEDs in the lenses? Hrrmmm. You could power it up at the local mall, and see if anybody goes down.... How bright does a flashing light need to be to induce seizures? Doc From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Sep 6 23:03:58 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... Message-ID: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas folks? Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Sep 6 23:06:14 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Black Hole photos & LGP junk References: <1094508381.19461.43.camel@fiche.wps.comm> Message-ID: <011701c49490$04eed920$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> gotta love that techtran cassette unit! Please find out what they are asking for it! what a flash from my past! thanks for posting the photos! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Black Hole photos & LGP junk > >http://wps.com/temp/Black-Hole-02-Sep-2004/ > > I think I'm glad I'm no where near there :^) That place looks like just > way to much fun! > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 6 23:11:59 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409062311.59575.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 05 September 2004 20:35, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> I know of people who "collect" those fraudulent checks and > >>> hang them on their wall. Let the scammer think you've > >>> accepted the deal. At least cost him the money of sending > >>> you a check. Often they send it overnight to get it to you > >>> quickly so you will send him the difference via Western > >>> Union or other wire transfer that can't be reversed. > > I definitely do NOT recomment this approach. You will have given your > identity in a very physical sense to the spammer. In the case of the > person I referred to in an earlier post (who I just found out is on > holiday), threats were made when he refused to cache the check [even > though he offered to return it]. If you accept the check, you should be able to call the issuing bank or business and verify the authenticity of the account, and that it has funds available, before submitting the check to your own bank. Definately don't try and cash the check until you can verify if it's authentic. If you are worried about your "identity", you can have it sent to a business or a friend's PO box if you can find someone willing to help you out. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dmhills at attglobal.net Mon Sep 6 22:43:52 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: anybody have PS/2 reference disketes? In-Reply-To: <080201c49458$7e9148e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <45SPBtgaXGEZ092yn@attglobal.net> "John Allain" wrote: >Anybody here have or know of a mirror of PS/2 reference >diskettes? IBM (It's Been Moved): ftp://service.boulder.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/refdisks/ -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 6 23:19:41 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? References: <200409062311.59575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003b01c49491$e5adfc10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? > On Sunday 05 September 2004 20:35, David V. Corbin wrote: > > >>> I know of people who "collect" those fraudulent checks and > > >>> hang them on their wall. Let the scammer think you've > > >>> accepted the deal. At least cost him the money of sending > > >>> you a check. Often they send it overnight to get it to you > > >>> quickly so you will send him the difference via Western > > >>> Union or other wire transfer that can't be reversed. > > > > I definitely do NOT recomment this approach. You will have given your > > identity in a very physical sense to the spammer. In the case of the > > person I referred to in an earlier post (who I just found out is on > > holiday), threats were made when he refused to cache the check [even > > though he offered to return it]. > > If you accept the check, you should be able to call the issuing bank or > business and verify the authenticity of the account, and that it has > funds available, before submitting the check to your own bank. > Definately don't try and cash the check until you can verify if it's > authentic. If you are worried about your "identity", you can have it > sent to a business or a friend's PO box if you can find someone willing > to help you out. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > If the deal smells funny then don't attempt to go through with it and notify the law. Playing games with thieves is not a smart thing to do. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 6 23:35:08 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? In-Reply-To: <003b01c49491$e5adfc10$0500fea9@game> References: <200409062311.59575.pat@computer-refuge.org> <003b01c49491$e5adfc10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200409062335.08683.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 06 September 2004 23:19, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Finnegan" > To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:11 AM > Subject: Re: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? > > > > If you accept the check, you should be able to call the issuing > > bank or business and verify the authenticity of the account, and > > that it has funds available, before submitting the check to your > > own bank. Definately don't try and cash the check until you can > > verify if it's authentic. If you are worried about your > > "identity", you can have it sent to a business or a friend's PO box > > if you can find someone willing to help you out. > > If the deal smells funny then don't attempt to go through with it and > notify the law. Playing games with thieves is not a smart thing to > do. Yeah, but he has no *proof* that the guy is trying to be fraudulent, and considering it's crossing international boundaries, the local cops probably aren't going to be able/willing to do much. If you get the guy to send you a bad check, you've got some proof that something's up. Anyways, who doesn't like to be a little "reckless". This guy sounds more like a scammer, it's not quite the same as screwing with your local drug dealer/mob boss. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 7 00:02:28 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Black Hole photos & LGP junk References: <1094508381.19461.43.camel@fiche.wps.comm> <011701c49490$04eed920$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <013501c49497$df9cbc20$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> or if anyone has one of these babies they wish to part with..... let me know. thee was also another weird thing from my past that was an rs 232 8 inch disk drive... you would hook it to a terminal and type to it... save stuff that was coming downline from the modem to the terminal etc.... would be fun to play with one of these too! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: Re: Black Hole photos & LGP junk > gotta love that techtran cassette unit! > Please find out what they are asking for it! > what a flash from my past! > thanks for posting the photos! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 8:47 PM > Subject: Re: Black Hole photos & LGP junk > > >> >http://wps.com/temp/Black-Hole-02-Sep-2004/ >> >> I think I'm glad I'm no where near there :^) That place looks like just >> way to much fun! >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> >> > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 6 23:50:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 6, 4 11:10:30 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > I'm trying to revive a keyboard (integrated into a vintage computer so > it's kinda important) - this is the kind where there's a PCB with lots of > "pads" in the scanning matrix, and the keys push a little pad of "conductive > rubber" down onto the PCB pads to make the connection. [...] > The good keys measure 200-300 ohms from one end of the conductive rubber > pad to the other with only mild pressure - the bad keys measure 5k-10k > unless you really squeeze them - under pressure they drop to 1k - 2k, > which appears to be barely enough to trigger a detection. I've seen this happen. My TRS80 M4 keyboard (which uses individual keyswitches which use this technology) had this sort of problem. Of course there I could move them around to put the bad ones on the least used keys (like the numeric keypad). > > Anyone know what the failure mode is? I though perhaps the rubber bits > had cracked, however this does not appear to be the case. > > Anyone have any tips/tricks to fix this problem? Two ideas : 1) Rub a _soft_ pencil (I manged to get a 6B) over the rubber pads. This will put a new graphite layer down. 2) Chemtronics sell (sold?) a repair kit for these pads. You mix the 2 parts and then put a drop on each of the pads. The problem is that once you've misxed the 2 parts you have to use the kit in a day or so, and there's enough stuff for quite a few switches -- and it's not cheap. It's therefore probably not worth doing for one TV remote or something, but it might be just right for a keyboard. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 7 00:42:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409070543.BAA29987@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1) Rub a _soft_ pencil (I manged to get a 6B) over the rubber pads. "Managed to"? Any art-supply store should have pencils in a wide variety of hardnesses, including the very soft. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 7 01:14:03 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <20040906031632.52217.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040906031632.52217.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1094537636.19461.50.camel@fiche.wps.comm> On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 20:16, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > What's the web site? Website? From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 7 02:16:18 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <413D6042.2040401@gjcp.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Several of the keys on this keyboard require excessive pressure to make > contact - I've tried cleaning the pads, and (gently) the surface of the > rubber, however it appears that the rubber has increased in resistance. The pads either wear or "dry out" or something, never worked out which. I talked a mate of mine through repairing some vintage synthesizers which use conductive pads for the control panel (Sequential Six-Trak, Alesis drum machine and sequencer) by taking the panel apart and painting a blob of silver-loaded paint for repairing heated rear windows in cars. The bottle was a couple of pounds from Halfords, and probably cheaper in your local independant motor factors. A tiny bottle lasts for ages because you only need a little spot. Gordon. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 02:40:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book In-Reply-To: <010401c4948e$ac6fee20$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... > > we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas > folks? Have a free "Smash the Altair!" day whereby people take swings at an Altair 8800 suspended from a wire. It can be a political statement about the soaring values of old computers. Of course, in the process you'll be promoting the higher prices since you'll be having to refill your stocks of old Altairs from eBay. :) Beyond that, games always grab your imagination. Run old versions of Hammurabi, Hunt the Wumpus, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 7 05:08:38 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:56 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-09-06 at 21:03 -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... > > we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas > folks? Well we've got a punched card machine, comptometers, and the 11/34 hooked up to a tape punch which people can use. Plus (nearly) all the 8 bit machines run at weekends for people to use, along with a good portion of the larger iron. (suprisingly, my fears when I first started there that the machines would get hammered into oblivion has been unfounded; the public actually take great care with them) We've got the Domesday setup running (usually, I'm having a bit of a reorganise at the mo so it's in bits) which is always popular, plus we've got a nixie tube counter hooked up to the doorway to count visitors and people love staring at that :-) If space ever permits I still plan to put up a large 'image wall' driven by 80's technology. I was also pondering having a hard disk with a perspex lid coupled to a display and keypad so that people can make it seek (along with some sort of "anatomy of a hard disk" info) And if we ever get our big plotter going, there's code around to convert a raster image to a plot - hooked up to a video camera we could produce huge plots of people for a fee (until we run out of plotter paper :) We've also got a couple of 11/84's coming in with a huge radar display attached, I'm sure we can do something interactive with that. (plus there's mini-projects in the pipeline like getting the weather satellite receiver and teletext unit working with the Acorn BBC so that people can play with those...) Of course the usual problem is lack of space. We badly need different premises that have more room. Unfortunately the government here doesn't give a damn about heritage/history and so they won't make any money or premises available. If anyone knows of a large empty building in the centre of the UK that we can just have, let me know :-) cheers, Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 7 05:42:28 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c494c7$74348be0$1e01010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 07 September 2004 11:09 > To: ed sharpe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > > and so they won't make any money or premises available. If > anyone knows of a large empty building in the centre of the > UK that we can just have, let me know :-) Oi, I've got dibs on the first one of those that comes up :D Cheers a From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 06:04:57 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber References: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <001f01c494ca$83bc5900$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Dave; I've tried several things on my Sony TV remote control. The various paints and other expensive fixes don't last very long. What finally worked for me was some heavy aluminum foil tape used for sealing air ducts. Cut some tiny squares of the tape just big enough to cover the two contact pads on the circuit board and stick it to the surface of the key plunger. Evidently the resistance value is not critical, as long as it's below some minimum value -- zero ohms is OK. My repair has been working for a couple of years now. You can find the tape at home centers (Lowe's/Home Depot), and appliance or plumbing parts suppliers. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 06:24:07 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications Message-ID: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> We join this program already in progress: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: "'Paul A. Pennington'" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 9:11 AM Subject: Heath ETA-3400 manual > Paul, > > Just to clarify, I dug out my ETA-3400 Assembly manual (595-2170) this > morning. The last paragraph on p. 39 states: > > "This completes the 'Initial Tests' of your Memory I/O Accessory. Set > the Memory I/O Accessory aside and proceed to the ET-3400 Trainer > Modification Kit. Then return to the 'Final Assembly and Operational > Tests' in this Manual." > > The contents and implementation of the Modification Kit are the big > mystery here, especially since it's not called out in the parts list. > I'm also lacking the pictorial booklet (large foldout) for the ETA-3400; > maybe it's covered there. If you have the pictorial booklet, I'd sure > appreciate a copy next time you go to Kinko's (hopefully they can handle > the oversize pages). > > Jack Paul wrote: >> For example, I just picked up a Heathkit >> ETA-3400 expansion box for my ET-3400, a Motorola 6800 >> trainer. I got some of the manuals with it but I'm missing >> others. I need the instructions for modifying the ET-3400 >> Trainer to attach the ETA-3400 Expansion, for one. Jack again: > If you find that manual, I know several folks who would be interested in > it - especially the pictorial section! My understanding is that the > "Heathkit" people are only selling copies of the old manuals and I don't > know if they provide the foldouts. I haven't purchased directly from > them - I came close on some of the H8/H89 stuff but ended up finding > "real" manuals for everything I needed, except the ET-3400 mods. I have > a siamesed unit (trainer + expansion) so I suppose we could swap a few > pix and reversed engineer the connection without too much trouble if you > can't find the manual. > > Jack From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 06:30:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 announcement Message-ID: Here's an update on the latest additions to VCF 7.0: OK ATDT19252945900 CONNECT 300 Connected to the VCF BBS... Featuring 10 megz of k-rad computer history! _______________________________________________________ | | | : Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 : | | | | Saturday, November 6th through Sunday, November 7th | | at the Computer History Museum | | Mountain View, California | | | | http://www.vintage.org | | | |_______________________________________________________| The 7th Annual Vintage Computer Festival comes at you this November 6th and 7th with the sights, sounds and smells of vintage computing! Join us for another action packed extravaganza, featuring an exciting lecture series, a diverse and vibrant exhibition, and a marketplace brimming with vintage computers o' plenty! [> Current Speaker Roster <] Saturday, November 6 10:00AM => Fred Cohen: Using Vintage Computers in Computer Forensics 10:30AM => Jason Scott: Documenting the BBS 11:00AM => Christian Wirth: The Art of Textmode Sunday, November 7 11:00AM => Nick Tredennick: Early Microprocessor Design 1:00PM => Andre' LaMothe: The XGameStation * Many more speakers to be added soon; schedule subject to change For more information on the speaker series, including abstracts and speaker bios, visit: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/speaker.php [> Special Events <] o Beta screening of Jason Scott's BBS Documentary Jason Scott has been working on a series of seven films that document the history of online bulletin board systems. This will be the first public screening of these films, and the feedback from the screening audience will help direct the final cuts. More information can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/screening.php o Retro-Code Video Game Programming Challenge Can you write a videogame on a vintage computer platform in three hours or less? http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/retrocode.php [> Vintage Computer Exhibition <] Vintage Computer Collectors: we want you! Exhibit your favorite computer in the Vintage Computer Exhibition. Ribbons and prizes are awarded in six classes and eight special categories, including the coveted Best of Show and People's Choice awards. For more information on participating as an exhibitor at VCF 7.0, visit: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/exhibit.php [> Vintage Computer Marketplace <] Do you have some vintage computer items you'd like to sell? Whether you rent a booth or sell on consignment, the Vintage Computer Festival Marketplace is the premier venue for selling old computers and related items. For more information, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/vendor.php [> Spread the Word! <] Download and post this gorgeous VCF 7.0 flyer on every flat surface in your immediate and extended sphere of existence! http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/vcf70flyer.pdf !~(&*GHI# NO CARRIER -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:38:57 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Nice ebay item Message-ID: <26c11a6404090704385ccb226d@mail.gmail.com> Anyone else want one of these ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5121044537&rd=1 Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:40:45 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6404090704403f60f460@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 23:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a > container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container > and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't > cut up my esophagus when I drink it? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > I'm guessing you haven't got an electron microscope and and a very small pair of tweezers..... Dan From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 06:42:54 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <007b01c494cf$d09e8f90$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Jack; That's useful to know. I don't have the assembly manual -- all I got with my ETA-3400 was the operation manual, 595-2271, with a copyright date of 1979. I did get the schematic, though. Walter Moore posted the following modifications he traced out on the Heathkit mail list: ----start of quote I guess I'm missing that important document also! I'm also missing the schematic for the ETA-3400, so I cannot guarantee what I'm about to tell you is 100% accurate. It would be nice to see if the wires in 3 & 4 are correct. I compared an unmodified ET-3400 (no 'A', no 'Series') with one that was modified and found the following differences: 1) A 40 pin connector added (OK, I had to say that :) ) 2) D0-D7 connected on said 40 pin connector. If you examine the back of the board, you will find 8 solder pads for D0-D7 below the 40 pin connector. Each of these was soldered to the corresponding via (is that what those holes are called???) next to IC9 and IC10 (to the side on an ET-3400, below on a 3400 "Series"). 3) Pins 6 & 35 of the 40 pin connector (NC on the schematic) connected to IC10 pin 1, soldered at the first via as the trace moves towards the top of the board. 4) Pins 15 & 20 (also NC on the schematic) connected to ?2 near IC4. Looking at the X-Ray layout picture, this was confusing to me. It wire was connected to the right pin of the 4x2 breadboard socket. From the front, this looks like it is labeled "?2", from the X-Ray it looks like "?2" is the 3rd pin). 5) The RAMs were removed. This system was purchased on eBay, and at least powers up. I've never hooked up a terminal or tape deck to try anything else out. Do you have the Software Reference Manual (595-2271) for the ETA-3400? ..walt ----end of quote I'm thinking the clock was also changed to raise it to 1 MHz. Can you look at your ET-3400 and see what values are installed for the resistor and capacitor on the clock generator? I'm going to start a bibliography for all these manuals and put it on my web page. There seem to be three versions of the ET-3400. Later, Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 7 07:17:40 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 23:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure what. J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 7 07:19:03 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <000001c494c7$74348be0$1e01010a@Beovax.Local> References: <000001c494c7$74348be0$1e01010a@Beovax.Local> Message-ID: <1094559543.5851.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 11:42 +0100, Witchy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > > Sent: 07 September 2004 11:09 > > To: ed sharpe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > > > > and so they won't make any money or premises available. If > > anyone knows of a large empty building in the centre of the > > UK that we can just have, let me know :-) > > Oi, I've got dibs on the first one of those that comes up :D Bah! I'll sub-let you a small corner, providing you promise to fill it with a Vectrex ;-) J. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 7 07:31:37 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber Message-ID: <20040907123135.LNVB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Tony: >I've seen this happen. My TRS80 M4 keyboard (which uses individual >keyswitches which use this technology) had this sort of problem. Of >course there I could move them around to put the bad ones on the least >used keys (like the numeric keypad). >Two ideas : >1) Rub a _soft_ pencil (I manged to get a 6B) over the rubber pads. This >will put a new graphite layer down. > >2) Chemtronics sell (sold?) a repair kit for these pads. You mix the 2 >parts and then put a drop on each of the pads. The problem is that once >you've misxed the 2 parts you have to use the kit in a day or so, and >there's enough stuff for quite a few switches -- and it's not cheap. It's >therefore probably not worth doing for one TV remote or something, but it >might be just right for a keyboard. Gordon: >The pads either wear or "dry out" or something, never worked out which. > I talked a mate of mine through repairing some vintage synthesizers >which use conductive pads for the control panel (Sequential Six-Trak, >Alesis drum machine and sequencer) by taking the panel apart and >painting a blob of silver-loaded paint for repairing heated rear windows >in cars. The bottle was a couple of pounds from Halfords, and probably >cheaper in your local independant motor factors. A tiny bottle lasts >for ages because you only need a little spot. Paul: > I've tried several things on my Sony TV remote control. The various >paints and other expensive fixes don't last very long. What finally worked >for me was some heavy aluminum foil tape used for sealing air ducts. > > Cut some tiny squares of the tape just big enough to cover the two >contact pads on the circuit board and stick it to the surface of the key >plunger. Evidently the resistance value is not critical, as long as it's >below some minimum value -- zero ohms is OK. My repair has been working for >a couple of years now. > > You can find the tape at home centers (Lowe's/Home Depot), and appliance >or plumbing parts suppliers. Hi Guys, THANKS for the good ideas... I think I like the tape idea the best - I had thought about trying to glue in a bit of tinfoil - I've done that for "round" pads, however these are very thin/long pads, and the tape might be easier to work with. Btw, they are NOT the kind where the PCB pads are interleaved "fingers" - these are two separete pads which are perhaps as much as 1/8" apart - the rubber bit is nearly 1/4" long and has a "bump" on each end to contact the pads - this means that the rubber flexes as it pushes down, and I think that graphite or paint would probably crack and flake off. I don't think it would be easy to replace the rubber pads, as you would need the right shape, and also the pad is bonded to a little strip of material like this (cross sectional view): | | <= Key plunger | | +--------+ | | <= open space +--------+ <= "Carrier strip" [====] <= Conductive Rubber Pad Btw, this is for a Commodore PET - I just remembered that I have an extra C64 keyboard, so I'm going to pull it apart and see if by any miracle the key assembly is the same. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Sep 7 07:49:52 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: <20040907123135.LNVB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040907123135.LNVB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <413DAE70.6060603@jcwren.com> How about copper foil tape, like that used by stained glass people? I use this stuff all the time when I do prototyping, usually to lay down power and ground "traces". I also use it for ground planes under switchers and RF sections. And for hacks like this: http://tinymicros.com/gallery/hasselblad --jc Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > >Paul: > > >> I've tried several things on my Sony TV remote control. The various >>paints and other expensive fixes don't last very long. What finally worked >>for me was some heavy aluminum foil tape used for sealing air ducts. >> >> Cut some tiny squares of the tape just big enough to cover the two >>contact pads on the circuit board and stick it to the surface of the key >>plunger. Evidently the resistance value is not critical, as long as it's >>below some minimum value -- zero ohms is OK. My repair has been working for >>a couple of years now. >> >> You can find the tape at home centers (Lowe's/Home Depot), and appliance >>or plumbing parts suppliers. >> >> > > >Hi Guys, > >THANKS for the good ideas... > >I think I like the tape idea the best - I had thought about trying to glue >in a bit of tinfoil - I've done that for "round" pads, however these are >very thin/long pads, and the tape might be easier to work with. > >Btw, they are NOT the kind where the PCB pads are interleaved "fingers" - >these are two separete pads which are perhaps as much as 1/8" apart - the >rubber bit is nearly 1/4" long and has a "bump" on each end to contact >the pads - this means that the rubber flexes as it pushes down, and I >think that graphite or paint would probably crack and flake off. > >I don't think it would be easy to replace the rubber pads, as you would >need the right shape, and also the pad is bonded to a little strip of >material like this (cross sectional view): > > > | | <= Key plunger > | | > +--------+ > | | <= open space > +--------+ <= "Carrier strip" > [====] <= Conductive Rubber Pad > > >Btw, this is for a Commodore PET - I just remembered that I have an >extra C64 keyboard, so I'm going to pull it apart and see if by any >miracle the key assembly is the same. > >Regards, > >Dave > > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Sep 7 08:44:53 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <413DD775.26739.95128326@localhost> Am 6 Sep 2004 21:03 meinte ed sharpe: > Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... > we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas > folks? Well, I have some, although, the most desired them will require a lot of work. Except of course the Hydrolic Binary Counter - a Display also shown at the Deutsches Museum, and in my opinion one of the most genuine and strikeing displays ever. Then there are of course a few experiments for basic technologies I would lig to see in a Computer museum, like a complete controlable CRT to displayhow it works, or basic hands on experiments about LCD, or magnetic Media. Planing a museum is a constant background task in my head since years ;) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 7 09:12:58 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003901c494e4$c70d2bc0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated > glass tubes > > Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of > several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that > *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure > what. > Hey, lets bring this back on topic and consider how to build some mercury delay lines as required by certain 1st (0th?) generation computers. :-) Andy From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Sep 7 09:12:57 2004 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <001a01c494e4$c7167a90$5401000a@KEVENWORK> Since I have never visited (yet), could you give some idea of the layout. Are the computers behind glass cases, or barracaded or roped off, or open for people to touch? Is the place multi-floors or single? Is it kept quiet like a library, or is the sound level allowed to rise somewhat? Are you looking for full interativity like OMSI in Portland, OR, (my experience) where kids can get hands on - play time, or not quite so open -- maybe just hands off, activity? Keven Miller -- trying to brainstorm here a little. kevenm@reeltapetransfer.com From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 7 09:36:23 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003801c494e8$0d2468f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very interesting. Thought of doing that with one of the old monster drives but seem to have problem finding something nice with the glass lid on it. It would be a trick to keep it running too.. I remember the 20 meg iss drive with the hp 2883 label on it.... the size of a washing machine but all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:08 AM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > On Mon, 2004-09-06 at 21:03 -0700, ed sharpe wrote: >> Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... >> >> we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... >> ideas >> folks? > > Well we've got a punched card machine, comptometers, and the 11/34 > hooked up to a tape punch which people can use. Plus (nearly) all the 8 > bit machines run at weekends for people to use, along with a good > portion of the larger iron. (suprisingly, my fears when I first started > there that the machines would get hammered into oblivion has been > unfounded; the public actually take great care with them) > > We've got the Domesday setup running (usually, I'm having a bit of a > reorganise at the mo so it's in bits) which is always popular, plus > we've got a nixie tube counter hooked up to the doorway to count > visitors and people love staring at that :-) > > If space ever permits I still plan to put up a large 'image wall' driven > by 80's technology. > > I was also pondering having a hard disk with a perspex lid coupled to a > display and keypad so that people can make it seek (along with some sort > of "anatomy of a hard disk" info) > > And if we ever get our big plotter going, there's code around to convert > a raster image to a plot - hooked up to a video camera we could produce > huge plots of people for a fee (until we run out of plotter paper :) > > We've also got a couple of 11/84's coming in with a huge radar display > attached, I'm sure we can do something interactive with that. > > (plus there's mini-projects in the pipeline like getting the weather > satellite receiver and teletext unit working with the Acorn BBC so that > people can play with those...) > > Of course the usual problem is lack of space. We badly need different > premises that have more room. Unfortunately the government here doesn't > give a damn about heritage/history and so they won't make any money or > premises available. If anyone knows of a large empty building in the > centre of the UK that we can just have, let me know :-) > > cheers, > > Jules > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 7 10:03:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <003801c494e8$0d2468f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: >>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very >>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but >>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems like a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" to make it more reliabile, lower-power, etc. Whould stilll give the look and feed of the classic drives [oh how I remember a row of RP-06's spinning away!] From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 10:07:09 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <007b01c494cf$d09e8f90$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <012701c494ec$5af20660$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> (Talking to myself again) OK. I just got off the phone from calling Heath Educational Systems. The only ETA-3400 manual they sell is 95 pages long, so that must be the operations manual. They want $35.00 plus $6.50 shipping for it, by the way. $41.50 is pretty strong, in my opinion. Fortunately, this is the one manual I already have -- it's proper title is: Heathkit Manual for the Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 Trainer, Model ETA-3400, part number 595-2271, copyright date 1979, 95 pages. If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email me on or off-list. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 7 10:32:37 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: Message-ID: <008a01c494ef$e7bca110$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> yes.... the visual of seeing the heads seek in and out.... I suppose you could pared the heads so they do not land and do not even hardly spin the thing up just make the heads seek...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'ed sharpe'" ; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:03 AM Subject: RE: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... >>>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very >>>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but >>>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems > like > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" > to > make it more reliabile, lower-power, etc. Whould stilll give the look and > feed of the classic drives [oh how I remember a row of RP-06's spinning > away!] > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 7 11:27:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094574454.5833.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 11:03 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very > >>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but > >>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems like > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" to > make it more reliabile, lower-power, etc. Whould stilll give the look and > feed of the classic drives [oh how I remember a row of RP-06's spinning > away!] Yep - I was going to do this with a more modern drive (5.25") and stick it in a wall-mounted cabinet along with a keypad and display (I've got some nice vacuum-fluorescent 7-segment displays lined up for the display bit). I'm hoping I can replace the drive's cover with a homebrew perspex one without too much crud getting in - data reliability isn't important but I'm not sure how reliable any embedded servo information will remain. Other option is to drive the head voice coil directly - in theory that bit's not too hard, but a lot of drives are clever enough to shut down the spindle motor if something's amiss (such as the heads not responding to movement from the logic!). I'm not sure how easy it'd be to work out how to drive the spindle motor. cheers, Jules From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 7 11:57:57 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: A paperclip computer might be nice.. http://www.computermuseum.20m.com/alcosser.htm I was lucky enough to pick up the book from a charity book sale for $1. It's pretty neat, and explains the basics of computers very well (Registers, memory, ALU, etc...) An oversized version using knife switches and lamps would be neat. P.S. Anyone play with the "Pro" version of this thing? http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/toy/paperclip/ct650lab.jpg Impressions 5 science museum in Lansing, MI used to have a "Design your own car" exhibit that ran on an IBM PC (Boring) But attached to the PC was a PDP11 controlling a GIANT table plotter, at least as big as a snooker table, donated by Ford. The design your own car part was boring, most kids would just input anything to watch the giant plotter work. Man I wanted that thing. The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI used to have a really cool exhibit showing how assembly lines work. It was a big, two story tall contraption which would send colored balls around various chutes and conveyors. About ten kids would have to work together to "Harvest" the balls, sort and seperate them into various bins. It was a lot more fun that it sounds. Kind of like a giant Rokenbach playset. Not really computer related, but a good example of making a (relatively) mundane topic interesting. Slightly OT, the Henry Ford museum is super cool, well worth the trip if anyone is in the Detroit area. It's what got me interested in machines, and computers, in general. I had an obsession with steam engines when I was young, mostly because of this thing: http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/mia/highlandpark.asp .. not to mention this thing: http://www.thehenryford.org/museum/transportation/allegheny.asp It's even larger than the picture makes it out to be. They also have the only intact Bucky Fuller Dymaxion house in existance: http://www.hfmgv.org/museum/dymaxion.asp ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 12:03 AM Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas folks? Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:16:30 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: survived another one! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Second hurricane in three weeks!! Just got power back after hurricane Frances. This one was HUGE!!!! It reached from the FIorida Keys to Atlanta Ga! It started raining here Friday. HEAVY rain and winds all day Saturday and Sunday. More rain Monday (and a curfew in effect). Today (1:30 PM Tuesday) some rain bands are still passing through. Three tornadoes in this area yesterday and another today. The worst of the storm was south of us this time and everything around here that could be blown down was already down due to Charlie so now as much damage this time but HUGE amounts of rain. I set my canoe outside last week and it was FILLED completely full of rain by Friday night. Luckily Florida is flat so rain doesn't concentrate much. NOW it looks like we're in the path of Hurricane Ivan!!! It's scheduled to be in this area about Sunday or Monday. UnF***ING believable! joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 12:19:55 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book Message-ID: <200409071719.KAA20653@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > >> Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... >> >> we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas >> folks? > >Have a free "Smash the Altair!" day whereby people take swings at an >Altair 8800 suspended from a wire. It can be a political statement about >the soaring values of old computers. Of course, in the process you'll be >promoting the higher prices since you'll be having to refill your stocks >of old Altairs from eBay. > >:) You are a sick person Sellam. I see you have already had a good swig of that Hg. Dwight > >Beyond that, games always grab your imagination. Run old versions of >Hammurabi, Hunt the Wumpus, etc. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 7 12:51:59 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book In-Reply-To: <200409071719.KAA20653@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at "Sep 7, 4 10:19:55 am" Message-ID: <200409071751.KAA17344@floodgap.com> > You are a sick person Sellam. I see you have already > had a good swig of that Hg. Just wait until the t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-tremours start. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Time wounds all heels. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:29:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907132932.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:17 PM 9/7/04 +0000, you wrote: >On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 23:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > >Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of >several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that >*something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure >what. > Fulminate! What else! Actaully Mercury a lot of uses. Dissovling and purifying gold is just one of them. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:32:28 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without anymeritwhatsoever References: <200409062045.i86Kj3Nw018689@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907133228.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:03 PM 9/6/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Sellam, you suprise me. Have you never made your own drugs? >>>> >>>> http://www.csp.org/chrestomathy/psychedelic_guide.html >>>> > >Now where does one go to sign up as a volunteer test subject..... > >Was a participant in a sleep deprivation study back in 1979. Was quite >interesting! Makes a single or double all-nighter seem almost easy. I was one of them ones that they had take off our oxygen masks and try to do simple tasks in the high altitude chamber during flight training. What a fast, cheap drunk and no hangover! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:34:15 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <413C05EC.5010804@naffnet.org.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907133415.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:38 AM 9/6/04 +0100, you wrote: >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes >>by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a >>container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container >>and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't >>cut up my esophagus when I drink it? Distillation. But don't let the EPA catch you and make DAMMED sure that the apparatus is tightly sealed. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 12:40:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907134054.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:41 AM 9/6/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> >> I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes >> by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a >> container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container >> and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't >> cut up my esophagus when I drink it? > > Ya sure ya ain't been *sniffing* it...???? > > Don't let them damn EPAnazis read this - there'll be a HazNat team camped >out for a year at the cordoned-off and domed-over hole in the ground what >used to be that building - of course now it's a SuperFund Site - our Tax >Dollars hard at work... Speaking of that. A few years ago they had a plastic bottle of mercury sitting over at the surplus disposal at Patrik AFB (part of Kennedy Space Center). The bottle had been sitting for a long time and gotten brittle. Someone tried to pick it up and it shattered and spilled mercury everywhere. They made everyone stay exactly where they were and called the haz mat crew. They came and made everyone strip, yeah, naked! Male and female. And then made them walk out into the parking lot where they sprayed them down with firehoses (in front of the rapidly gathering crowd!) So this is what you have to look forward to Sellam! Joe From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 7 12:56:52 2004 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0><007b01c494cf$d09e8f90$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <012701c494ec$5af20660$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <000701c49504$0ee34640$71881442@computer> From: Paul A. Pennington > If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the > modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email > me on or off-list. > Hi Paul, It's a small manual at 10 pages. Posted pics of each page that are close to the readibility threashold at: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010001.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010001.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010001.JPG From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 7 12:59:08 2004 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0><007b01c494cf$d09e8f90$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <012701c494ec$5af20660$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <001301c49504$60040320$71881442@computer> err... http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010001.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010002.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010003.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010004.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010005.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010006.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010007.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010008.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010009.JPG http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010010.JPG if you have any poblem reading any of it email me ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 13:07:47 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907140747.008d6880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:42 PM 9/4/04 -0400, you wrote: >Somehow I missed the original message in this thread, but maybe I can >clear up a bit of Andy's confusion. > >The Intellec MDS 800 is the development system that Intel sold to create >products on their 8080 and later processors. It was itself based on >what later became known as the "Multibus" architecture. It ran a 2MHz >8080 cpu and was standard with 16K bytes of RAM. You could add more, up >to 64K that the main cpu (the 8080) could address. > >Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" >floppy drives. They could work as single density or double density >depending on whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, >it was a set of TWO multibus board to control those two floppy drives. > >Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M operating system for that computer and Intel >also sold their own called ISIS-II (there might have been an ISIS >without the II, but I never knew of it). > >The system that Steve mentions here with an integrated CRT and keyboard >has to be the follow-on product from Intel called the MDS Series II, a >different, but compatible, system from the MDS-800. The 800 needed an >external terminal. > >There is much more, and if Andy wants to e-mail me directly I can give >him much more information. Joe Rigdon and Tony Duell are authorities on >these systems and they will likely offer their own information. Currently I can tell you that they're too heavy to fly away during TWO hurricanes! Seriously I have a pile of docs and SW for both the 800s and 2xx models. but at the rate things are doing I'll never have time to organize them. Joe > >Good luck with that classic, Andy. > >Dave > >Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > >> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Andy Allaway wrote: >> >> >>>I am considering buying a classic pc. The one I might buy is the intellec mds >>>800. It comes with a drive also. I dont know much about vintage pc's but >>>would love to be like you all. I thought starting with one of the best pc's >>>would be good. So my question is, if I were to buy this pc, what type of >>>monitor/keyboard do I hook up to it? Where can I get one? >> >> >> I'm not an authority on the MDS800, but the one I have is actually >> integral with the display and came with a keyboard. Certainly, I'm able >> to use it without an RS232 terminal. >> >> >>>ps, if I buy this intellec, what can I do with it? >> >> >> Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask that question >> you may want to reconsider buying it. The MDS800 provided a complete >> hardware and software environment for developing products using some of >> the older Intel CPUs. It is not really what I'd think of as being a "pc". >> >> Steve >> > >-- >Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com >Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 13:16:05 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: References: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> <4139F071.8080909@mich.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907141605.008d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:49 PM 9/4/04 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > >> Somehow I missed the original message in this thread, but maybe I can clear up >> a bit of Andy's confusion. >> >> The Intellec MDS 800 is the development system that Intel sold to create >> products on their 8080 and later processors. It was itself based on what >> later became known as the "Multibus" architecture. It ran a 2MHz 8080 cpu and >> was standard with 16K bytes of RAM. You could add more, up to 64K that the >> main cpu (the 8080) could address. >> >> Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" floppy >> drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on >> whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set of TWO >> multibus board to control those two floppy drives. >> >> Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M operating system for that computer and Intel also >> sold their own called ISIS-II (there might have been an ISIS without the II, >> but I never knew of it). >> >> The system that Steve mentions here with an integrated CRT and keyboard has to >> be the follow-on product from Intel called the MDS Series II, a different, but >> compatible, system from the MDS-800. The 800 needed an external terminal. > >Thanks for filling that in. I don't know a lot about this unit. It came >from the local university surplus outlet, and was accompanied by reams of >documentation, diskettes and EPROM burner modules. It has the dual drive >subsystem, but I have not gone into it to see what the controllers are. Here are some pictures of a couple of my 800s and . Here is a webpage that I started (but never finished) that describes some of the 2xx models. Here is a MOL finished webpage about one of my other MDS-800s, . It includes pictures and descriptions of most of the various MDS-800 cards. Here, is a webpage that I swtarted about Multibus cards. It includes both Intel and non_intel cards. I'm WAY behind with the updates for it. Joe > >It keeps my HP64000 company. Picked one of them up at the same time, >along with probably every bit of documentation, pods and software ever >made for it. Hard to find anyone who's even heard of them (besides you, I have two of them sitting in storage. But I'm not really interested in them and I shipped most of the docs and SW and small parts to Frank McConnell. Joe >Dave ). > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 7 13:32:08 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040907134054.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040907142051.052208d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > Speaking of that. A few years ago they had a plastic bottle of mercury >sitting over at the surplus disposal at Patrik AFB (part of Kennedy Space >Center). The bottle had been sitting for a long time and gotten brittle. >Someone tried to pick it up and it shattered and spilled mercury >everywhere. They made everyone stay exactly where they were and called the >haz mat crew. They came and made everyone strip, yeah, naked! Male and >female. And then made them walk out into the parking lot where they sprayed >them down with firehoses (in front of the rapidly gathering crowd!) I *have* the mercury -- so how do I get a hazmat team & Jill Hennessy in my house *at the same time*??? :-O ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Sep 7 13:42:37 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 References: <4139F071.8080909@mich.com><4139F071.8080909@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907141605.008d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000a01c4950a$739458d0$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Joe R." > >> The Intellec MDS 800 is the development system that Intel sold to create > >> products on their 8080 and later processors. It was itself based on what > >> later became known as the "Multibus" architecture. It ran a 2MHz 8080 cpu and > >> was standard with 16K bytes of RAM. You could add more, up to 64K that the > >> main cpu (the 8080) could address. > >> Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" floppy > >> drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on > >> whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set of TWO > >> multibus board to control those two floppy drives. > >> Gary Kildall wrote the CP/M operating system for that computer and Intel also > >> sold their own called ISIS-II (there might have been an ISIS without the II, > >> but I never knew of it). I used the system with whopping 3 floppy drives ! It was used by a Philips subsidiary, "ap radiotelefon", much like Pye in the UK. I managed to program a switchboard, with 11 local phones, 2 trunk lines, and path to 3 radio transceivers, each with 3 channels. The computer part of it consisted of 1 Siemens Eurocard with an 8085, with 28K EPROM and 4K RAM, IIRC. The whole system was mounted in a 19" rack, about 7 feet high. The bottom third pard was used exclusively for batteries, as it had to be able to work without external power for 12 hours. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19-08-2004 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 13:45:16 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 Message-ID: <200409071845.LAA20771@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > ---snip--- >>> >>> Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" >floppy >>> drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on >>> whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set >of TWO >>> multibus board to control those two floppy drives. >>> ---snip--- > > > Here are some pictures of a couple of my 800s > and >. Here > is a webpage that I started (but >never finished) that describes some of the 2xx models. Here is a MOL >finished webpage about one of my other MDS-800s, >. It includes pictures >and descriptions of most of the various MDS-800 cards. > > Here, is a webpage >that I swtarted about Multibus cards. It includes both Intel and non_intel >cards. I'm WAY behind with the updates for it. > > Joe > Hi When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for the test of the 1036 Floppy Disk Control Card ( this was for double density M2FM ). It seemed that I was one of the few people, even then, that knew what a phase locked loop was and how it needed to be tested. The Channel card used the 3000 series bit slice. These were a reasonable bit slice but didn't compete well with AMD's 2900 stuff. I suspect it was mostly the sequencer that put people off. It is almost impossible to read the code for these and takes a grand master to write the code effectively. I've got to get started on my MDS800. It just seems like other projects get in the way. Perhaps I should put it in the walkway. that way I'll be reminded of it each time I step over it. As for a terminal, other than the possible current loop issue, you may need the right emulator if you want to run CREDIT ( their screen editor ). I believe this just used VT100 codes but I could be wrong. The original 800's used Beehive terminals that were painted Intel blue. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 13:49:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > NOW it looks like we're in the path of Hurricane Ivan!!! It's > scheduled to be in this area about Sunday or Monday. UnF***ING believable! You should move to California. It's not nearly as humid as FL and we only get major earthquakes once every 10-30 years :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 13:55:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040907134054.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Speaking of that. A few years ago they had a plastic bottle of mercury > sitting over at the surplus disposal at Patrik AFB (part of Kennedy Space > Center). The bottle had been sitting for a long time and gotten brittle. > Someone tried to pick it up and it shattered and spilled mercury > everywhere. They made everyone stay exactly where they were and called the > haz mat crew. They came and made everyone strip, yeah, naked! Male and > female. And then made them walk out into the parking lot where they sprayed > them down with firehoses (in front of the rapidly gathering crowd!) So > this is what you have to look forward to Sellam! Excellent! I'll be sure to invite over the Swedish Bikini Team before I spill any. Tickets to the spectacle will go sale shortly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dmabry at mich.com Tue Sep 7 14:33:18 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <413E0CFE.5000503@mich.com> Joe, You didn't answer the important question...did any of your computer stuff get wet? :) You want to borrow some of my scuba gear? Joe R. wrote: > Second hurricane in three weeks!! Just got power back after hurricane > Frances. This one was HUGE!!!! It reached from the FIorida Keys to Atlanta > Ga! It started raining here Friday. HEAVY rain and winds all day Saturday > and Sunday. More rain Monday (and a curfew in effect). Today (1:30 PM > Tuesday) some rain bands are still passing through. Three tornadoes in this > area yesterday and another today. The worst of the storm was south of us > this time and everything around here that could be blown down was already > down due to Charlie so now as much damage this time but HUGE amounts of > rain. I set my canoe outside last week and it was FILLED completely full of > rain by Friday night. Luckily Florida is flat so rain doesn't concentrate > much. > > NOW it looks like we're in the path of Hurricane Ivan!!! It's > scheduled to be in this area about Sunday or Monday. UnF***ING believable! > > joe > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 14:49:09 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever" (Sep 7, 12:17) References: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10409072049.ZM17563@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 12:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 23:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > > Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of > several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that > *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure > what. Well, whatever you do, don't try putting it in hollowed-out .357 magnum bullets, nor even .38 specials. It's illegal, and no fun at all. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 14:53:31 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: "J.C. Wren" "Re: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber" (Sep 7, 8:49) References: <20040907123135.LNVB13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <413DAE70.6060603@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <10409072053.ZM17567@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 8:49, J.C. Wren wrote: > How about copper foil tape, like that used by stained glass people? > I use this stuff all the time when I do prototyping, usually to lay down > power and ground "traces". Not a bad idea. If you know anyone who has recently bought any Sun computers, or HP network switches, they all come with a 3M disposable ground strap, which has several inches of adhesive copper foil at one end. > I also use it for ground planes under > switchers and RF sections. And for hacks like this: > http://tinymicros.com/gallery/hasselblad Neat! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 15:10:25 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: "ed sharpe" "Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays...." (Sep 7, 8:32) References: <008a01c494ef$e7bca110$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <10409072110.ZM17585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 8:32, ed sharpe wrote: > yes.... the visual of seeing the heads seek in and out.... I suppose you > could pared the heads so they do not land and do not even hardly spin the > thing up just make the heads seek...... The large Fujitsu SMD drives (smaller capacity than an Eagle, but about the same physical size, 14" platters) have perspex HDA covers, and you can see the heads moving quite well. I have an M2284 like that. Of course, you can do it with a 5.25" winchester or even a 3.5" one as well, if it's the type that has a flat top cover (note that some Seagate 3.5" drives have a flat *baseplate* to which all the gubbins are mounted -- it looks like just a cover, but it isn't). Just take off the cover, and use it as a template to cut out and drill a perspex replacement. Or even cover it with clingwrap (saran wrap, I think you colonists call it), but keep people's fingers away from it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 7 13:59:21 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> I appreciate all the offers to host these files. I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. I received an offer from a guy selling a $35 (USA S/H inc.) "Classic Computer Reference DVD" on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5120153936 He wanted to swap a copy of the DVD for a copy of these 20,046 pages. - John From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 16:33:25 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <6166038.1094592806218.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> and we can expect the stuff you send him to magically appear on eBay for him to sell... best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: John Foust Sent: Sep 7, 2004 2:59 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available I appreciate all the offers to host these files. I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. I received an offer from a guy selling a $35 (USA S/H inc.) "Classic Computer Reference DVD" on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5120153936 He wanted to swap a copy of the DVD for a copy of these 20,046 pages. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 13:25:28 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:57 2005 Subject: TEK 8002A floppy documentation? In-Reply-To: <20040905000030.91DF83BFD@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907142528.00934a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Talk to Mike Haas. he has two of these machines and some docs and SW. Joe At 05:00 PM 9/4/04 -0700, you wrote: > >The Tek 8002A used an external hard sectored 8" >disc box. I have several boxes of 8" discs I'd >like to try to read, but I don't have any docs >on the floppy unit (I have the manual for the >main box). Does anyone happen to have the svc >manual for this? > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 16:35:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <10409072049.ZM17563@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Well, whatever you do, don't try putting it in hollowed-out .357 magnum > bullets, nor even .38 specials. It's illegal, and no fun at all. Is that a veiled suggestion? If so, what is the result (besides internal Hg poisoning, let alone internal bleeding, tissue damage, etc.)? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 16:44:05 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040907142051.052208d8@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907134054.0092b170@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907174405.00934c10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:32 PM 9/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > >> Speaking of that. A few years ago they had a plastic bottle of mercury >>sitting over at the surplus disposal at Patrik AFB (part of Kennedy Space >>Center). The bottle had been sitting for a long time and gotten brittle. >>Someone tried to pick it up and it shattered and spilled mercury >>everywhere. They made everyone stay exactly where they were and called the >>haz mat crew. They came and made everyone strip, yeah, naked! Male and >>female. And then made them walk out into the parking lot where they sprayed >>them down with firehoses (in front of the rapidly gathering crowd!) > >I *have* the mercury -- so how do I get a hazmat team & Jill Hennessy in my >house *at the same time*??? :-O ;^> ROFL! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 16:53:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <413E0CFE.5000503@mich.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:33 PM 9/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >Joe, > >You didn't answer the important question...did any of your computer >stuff get wet? :) Oh Yeah! The back porch (roofless) was still stacked full of Intel MDS-2xxs and the front was stacked full of DEC stuff. It all got soaked but none blew away. The house was FULL and no room for these big items. > >You want to borrow some of my scuba gear? LOL! Only if I can stuff it full of computer equipment! Joe > > > >Joe R. wrote: >> Second hurricane in three weeks!! Just got power back after hurricane >> Frances. This one was HUGE!!!! It reached from the FIorida Keys to Atlanta >> Ga! It started raining here Friday. HEAVY rain and winds all day Saturday >> and Sunday. More rain Monday (and a curfew in effect). Today (1:30 PM >> Tuesday) some rain bands are still passing through. Three tornadoes in this >> area yesterday and another today. The worst of the storm was south of us >> this time and everything around here that could be blown down was already >> down due to Charlie so now as much damage this time but HUGE amounts of >> rain. I set my canoe outside last week and it was FILLED completely full of >> rain by Friday night. Luckily Florida is flat so rain doesn't concentrate >> much. >> >> NOW it looks like we're in the path of Hurricane Ivan!!! It's >> scheduled to be in this area about Sunday or Monday. UnF***ING believable! >> >> joe >> > >-- >Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com >Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 7 16:48:42 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 In-Reply-To: <200409071845.LAA20771@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040907174842.008d39e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:45 AM 9/7/04 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >---snip--- >>>> >>>> Intel sold a disk-drive subsystem that consisted of two Shugart 801 8" >>floppy >>>> drives. They could work as single density or double density depending on >>>> whether you had the 201 or 202 controller board set. Yes, it was a set >>of TWO >>>> multibus board to control those two floppy drives. >>>> >---snip--- >> >> >> Here are some pictures of a couple of my 800s >> and >>. Here >> is a webpage that I started (but >>never finished) that describes some of the 2xx models. Here is a MOL >>finished webpage about one of my other MDS-800s, >>. It includes pictures >>and descriptions of most of the various MDS-800 cards. >> >> Here, is a webpage >>that I swtarted about Multibus cards. It includes both Intel and non_intel >>cards. I'm WAY behind with the updates for it. >> >> Joe >> > >Hi > When I worked at Intel, I was responsible for the test of the >1036 Floppy Disk Control Card ( this was for double density >M2FM ). It seemed that I was one of the few people, even then, >that knew what a phase locked loop was and how it needed to >be tested. > The Channel card used the 3000 series bit slice. The channel cards are getting hard to find. The chip collectors are gutting them for the bit-slice chips. These were >a reasonable bit slice but didn't compete well with AMD's >2900 stuff. I suspect it was mostly the sequencer that put >people off. It is almost impossible to read the code for these >and takes a grand master to write the code effectively. > I've got to get started on my MDS800. It just seems like other >projects get in the way. Perhaps I should put it in the walkway. >that way I'll be reminded of it each time I step over it. > As for a terminal, other than the possible current loop issue, >you may need the right emulator if you want to run CREDIT >( their screen editor ). I believe this just used VT100 codes >but I could be wrong. The original 800's used Beehive terminals >that were painted Intel blue. I have one but it doesn't work. Anyone got a service manual for it? Joe >Dwight > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 16:53:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever Message-ID: <200409072153.OAA20870@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> Speaking of that. A few years ago they had a plastic bottle of mercury >> sitting over at the surplus disposal at Patrik AFB (part of Kennedy Space >> Center). The bottle had been sitting for a long time and gotten brittle. >> Someone tried to pick it up and it shattered and spilled mercury >> everywhere. They made everyone stay exactly where they were and called the >> haz mat crew. They came and made everyone strip, yeah, naked! Male and >> female. And then made them walk out into the parking lot where they sprayed >> them down with firehoses (in front of the rapidly gathering crowd!) So >> this is what you have to look forward to Sellam! > >Excellent! I'll be sure to invite over the Swedish Bikini Team before I >spill any. > >Tickets to the spectacle will go sale shortly. > Hi I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure to vapor. We had a diffusion pump fracture in a lab once with mercury in it. It did require that we had to remove the linoleum flooring but we didn't all strip and hose ourselves down. That is just plain silly. This is typical over/under reaction of today's world on hazardous materials. We fail to put things into perspective. We also fail to consider all of the consequences of the choices we make as well. Look at how we handle asbestos. Look at how California handled MTBE. Look at how people see using hydrogen to fuel cars. The list goes on. Dwight From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 7 16:57:25 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6166038.1094592806218.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006101c49525$a97ff380$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > and we can expect the stuff you send him to magically appear > on eBay for him to sell... Well I do not know said guy personally, but he does say in his auction that he has permission from the various sites to put the DVD together and that if you prefer he'll happily tell you where to download the stuff for yourself. In fact, he did so a short while ago in comp.os.cpm (I think) so I would expect he is genuine. I'd still like to see both collections up on the net though :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 7 17:00:51 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber In-Reply-To: <001f01c494ca$83bc5900$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> References: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <001f01c494ca$83bc5900$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <20040907220051.GB11629@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 07:04:57AM -0400, Paul A. Pennington wrote: > Dave; > > I've tried several things on my Sony TV remote control. The various > paints and other expensive fixes don't last very long. What finally worked > for me was some heavy aluminum foil tape used for sealing air ducts. > > Cut some tiny squares of the tape just big enough to cover the two > contact pads on the circuit board and stick it to the surface of the key > plunger. Evidently the resistance value is not critical, as long as it's > below some minimum value -- zero ohms is OK. My repair has been working > for a couple of years now. Isn't the reason the original equipment came with rubber pads was to minimize wear of the PCB contacts? When I was a kid, the only computer at home was a Commodore PET (2001-N - 32K, 40 col., AKA 3032 in Europe) One of the most loaded programs, by me and my 3 brothers, was the machine-language version of Space Invaders. You move with the 4 and 6 number-pad keys, and fire with A. Between all of us, we wore the gold off those three pads. I can only imagine that copper or alumimum foil tape would do it much faster. My solution to the damaged PCB was to A) buy a new keyboard back (at $35 from the local dealer), B) salvage the old harness, C) build a frame from an old Radio-Shack 150-in-1 electronic kit, D) install 3 genuine arcade buttons (about $8 each at the time), and E) mount them in front of the computer. I wish I had a picture of it, but it was perfect - with the second keyboard harness, I was able to mount the buttons in parallel with the keyboard, letting us play Space Invaders without damaging the new keyboard. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 07-Sep-2004 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.6 C) Windchill -96.8 F (-71.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 23 kts Grid 348 Barometer 685.8 mb (10408. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 7 17:17:11 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6166038.1094592806218.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040907221711.38445.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> The guy selling these disks is Barry Watzman, who I believe is a sometimes contributor to this list. I recently bought one of these disks, and was very pleased with it and the time it saved me downloading. While some of this material was put on the net by others, I believe that Barry himself has scanned some of it himself. In any case, it appears that he is providing a genuine service rather than profiteering at the at the expense of others. I am also a satsified customer of Bryan Blackburn, another list member who has collected and scanned a variety of Mark-8 related resources which he markets on E-bay. I don't know either of these guys personally, just a satisfied customer... --Bill --- Steve Thatcher wrote: > and we can expect the stuff you send him to > magically appear on eBay for him to sell... > > best regards, Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust > Sent: Sep 7, 2004 2:59 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > > I appreciate all the offers to host these files. > > I was surprised that there were no suggestions about > how to > augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. > > I received an offer from a guy selling a $35 (USA > S/H inc.) > "Classic Computer Reference DVD" on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5120153936 > > He wanted to swap a copy of the DVD for a copy of > these 20,046 pages. > > - John > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 17:32:07 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book" (Sep 7, 10:51) References: <200409071751.KAA17344@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <10409072332.ZM17773@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 10:51, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > You are a sick person Sellam. I see you have already > > had a good swig of that Hg. > > Just wait until the t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-tremours start. The best is when the skin starts to itch and flake off and the kidneys give up. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 17:26:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Dan Williams "Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever" (Sep 7, 12:40) References: <26c11a6404090704403f60f460@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10409072326.ZM17768@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 12:40, Dan Williams wrote: > On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 23:14:16 -0700 (PDT), Vintage Computer Festival > wrote: > > > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > > by cracking the tips of the tubes and then emptying the contents into a > > container. Unfortunately, some tiny glass shards got into the container > > and is now mixed in. How can I filter out the glass shards so they don't > > cut up my esophagus when I drink it? > I'm guessing you haven't got an electron microscope and and a very > small pair of tweezers..... I'm surprised nobody has thought of the obvious: mercury is considerably denser than glass, so the glass would float on the surface. All you have to do is skim it. Never mind skimmed milk, Sellam, you can have skimmed quicksilver ;-) A more interesting way would be to use some other metal to make an amalgam, leaving the glass behind, and then recover the mercury from the amalgam. Sodium's good. If you put sodium amalgam in water, it will decompose into nicely fizzy caustic soda solution and pure mercury, giving off hydrogen, which "burns rather readily". The usual method of filtering mercury is to use a small folded filter paper, with a very small hole torn in the point of the cone. The mercury will run through the small hole, but most of the rubbish, which floats on the top, will stay behind. You usually need to do this a couple of times. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Sep 7 17:34:01 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <0609e7ea4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > Oh Yeah! The back porch (roofless) was still stacked full of Intel > MDS-2xxs and the front was stacked full of DEC stuff. It all got soaked but > none blew away. The house was FULL and no room for these big items. Clean 'em with distilled water, then leave to dry for a few days - good as new :) If you really feel pessimistic, get a toothbrush and clean every single component with 90% isopropanol :) OTOH, if you feel brave, pull the boards and run them through a dishwasher. Can't remember what settings to use, but it supposedly works wonders as long as you don't mind having a few labels ripped off the board here and there (and a few electrolytics might break off if you're real unlucky). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI .... Neither Borrower Or Lender Be; routinely ignored by Congress. From aek at spies.com Tue Sep 7 17:42:49 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <20040907224249.2E2343C54@spies.com> he does say in his auction that he has permission from the various sites to put the DVD together -- Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission to sell the material from bitsavers. I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future usenet postings. For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold in any form. From jec at jcosper.com Tue Sep 7 18:00:13 2004 From: jec at jcosper.com (James E Cosper) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications Message-ID: <200409071559697.SM00103@work3> >Heathkit Manual for the Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 >Trainer, Model ETA-3400, part number 595-2271, copyright date 1979, 95 >pages. > > If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the >modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email >me on or off-list. > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia > Greetings, Here is a list of the manuals I have: Microprocessor Trainer ET-3400 part number 595-2021-06, copyright date 1977 113 Pages + 3 set Foldout + "price list 10/20/80". Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 part number 595-2271-01, copyright date 1979 95 pages. Memory Input/Output Accessory ETA-3400 (Assembly) part number 595-2170-03, copyright date 1979 57 Pages. + 1 set Foldout. Modification Kit for the Heathkit ET/ETW-3400 and 3400A Microprocessor Trainers Model ETA-3400/EWA-3400. part number 597-1954-02, copyright ???? 21 Pages. I can scan these if there is interest in them. Later, James. From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 7 18:08:39 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> I urgently need a part to repair an HP tape drive. What I'm looking for is the hub release mechanisim from a HP 7970 A, B, C, or E drive. This same part may also be used on other HP tape drives as well. The same mechanisim is used for both the supply and take-up reels. If you have a parts machine HP tape drive, please contact me ASAP. To remove this part from a drive, lift the tape reel unlocking tab on the front of the hub. You will see a small phillips head screw, remove this screw (it does not need to be fully unscrewed, but you might as well...). With the locking screw removed, unscrew (counter-clockwise) the release mechanisim from the hub while preventing the hub from turning (simple finger pressure should do). How I broke my release mechanisim.... I had a reel of tape with a rather sticky write-enable ring mounted, and it stuck to the hub. Even with the release tab lifted I was unable to get this reel of tape off the hub. I managed to free the offending reel of tape, but in the process the release tab got whacked, and the cams under the tab cracked and split. The major pain of this is, I need to cut a bootable tape, and now I cannot even mount a reel. From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 7 18:12:24 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040907224249.2E2343C54@spies.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 6:43 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > > > he does say in > his auction that he has permission from the various sites > to put the DVD together > > -- > > Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission > to sell the material from bitsavers. > > I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future > usenet postings. > > For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold > in any form. > And likewise, what little information I have contributed to bitsavers is not to be sold. It's to be shared on bitsavers, but I do not want any money exchanged for anything that I donate. Are people downloading things from bitsavers and selling them for a profit? That's downright dirty and rather irritating. It's like one time when I wrote a 340 page family history that I spent many years working on, and took many contributions from others, and had a clause at the beginning where I stated that this information could not be used without my permission..... then I found two instances where someone "stole" entire large sections and used it as if they had done all the work. It later appeared on their web site as their own personal research. From aek at spies.com Tue Sep 7 18:13:47 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <20040907231347.0A03C3C58@spies.com> Are people downloading things from bitsavers and selling them for a profit? -- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5120677046 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657361 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657564 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657045 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=3695381778 and thanks to the last four, I've had a few dozen people trying to Wget the whole IBM section of the archive. From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 7 18:29:13 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040907231347.0A03C3C58@spies.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:14 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > > > > > Are people downloading things from bitsavers and selling them for > a profit? > > -- > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item= > 5120677046 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657361 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657564 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657045 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=3 > 695381778 > > and thanks to the last four, I've had a few dozen people trying to Wget > the whole IBM section of the archive. > I believe that a complaint can be filed against the seller and eBay can shut them down. However, since some of this stuff probably still belongs to IBM, I would not want someone to attempt to shut down bitsavers because of this. From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 7 18:26:27 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: Message-ID: <006001c49532$19cbb320$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> SW Simple. Have running software. It requires research as to what could be unique and interesting. But there will be finds for you to make and then therefore your visitors. For common machines (C64,etc.) you could run it on the actual HW. For larger things use a simulator and have the wires disappear into the artifact just as if it was that machine doing the processing. Seems like obvious choices. HW There is an 8" Fujitsu SMD HD here that I once had enough of to run with the cover off the diagnostics made it do non trivial things and a crash did not happen in the one test we did. The cover may have even been planar, meaning it would be easy to make a see-through one. John A. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 7 18:26:51 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: Message-ID: <003c01c49532$27e9be70$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:12 PM Subject: RE: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow > > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 6:43 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available > > > > > > > > he does say in > > his auction that he has permission from the various sites > > to put the DVD together > > > > -- > > > > Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission > > to sell the material from bitsavers. > > > > I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future > > usenet postings. > > > > For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold > > in any form. > > > > And likewise, what little information I have contributed to bitsavers > is not to be sold. It's to be shared on bitsavers, but I do not > want any money exchanged for anything that I donate. > > Are people downloading things from bitsavers and selling them for > a profit? That's downright dirty and rather irritating. It's like > one time when I wrote a 340 page family history that I spent many > years working on, and took many contributions from others, and had > a clause at the beginning where I stated that this information > could not be used without my permission..... then I found two > instances where someone "stole" entire large sections and used it > as if they had done all the work. It later appeared on their web > site as their own personal research. > > Is the person in question selling the material or in reality just selling the service of gathering that material and storing it on a convenient DVD saving the buyer countless time and effort doing the same? Not everybody has broadband, the time, or wants to expend the effort in gathering documentation that is freely downloadable over the internet. As far as the information on bitsavers, who owns the copyright to each file posted there? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 7 18:32:51 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: from "Ashley Carder" at Sep 07, 2004 07:12:24 PM Message-ID: <200409072332.i87NWpeo004659@onyx.spiritone.com> > Are people downloading things from bitsavers and selling them for > a profit? That's downright dirty and rather irritating. It's like > one time when I wrote a 340 page family history that I spent many > years working on, and took many contributions from others, and had > a clause at the beginning where I stated that this information > could not be used without my permission..... then I found two > instances where someone "stole" entire large sections and used it > as if they had done all the work. It later appeared on their web > site as their own personal research. Geneologists seem to be notoriously bad in this regard, many of them see nothing wrong with posting stuff that shouldn't be on the net, or worse stealing the content of entire books/publications/articles and reprinting it (some even going so far as to copywrite what they've stolen). Some don't even care if it's a copywrited book that was just released and is still easily (even if not cheaply) available new. Another group that really suprised me that is bad about such things are little old ladies into sewing. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 17:25:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit In-Reply-To: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 7, 4 12:17:40 pm Message-ID: > Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of > several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that > *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure > what. My first 3 thoughts, in no particular order : Barometer (or other manometer-type pressure gauge) Mercury delay line (hey, that's on-topic) Developing Dageurrotypes (?spell) (No, I don't intend to try this, I may hack cameras as well as computers, but I don't intend to start boiling mercury...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 17:29:32 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Sep 7, 4 11:03:12 am Message-ID: > > >>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very > >>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but > >>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems like > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" to NO!!!! Sorry, but I object to technical museums that present replicas (and emulators hidden inside the case of an older machine, and...) as the real thing. You would not accept an art gallery that showed copies of the famous paintings, you shouldn't accept it for computers either. If I go to a museum it's because I want to see the real machine -- one I don't happen to already have. I don't want to see a fake. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 17:33:35 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094574454.5833.56.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 7, 4 04:27:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 11:03 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > > >>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very > > >>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but > > >>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... > > > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems like > > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" to > > make it more reliabile, lower-power, etc. Whould stilll give the look and > > feed of the classic drives [oh how I remember a row of RP-06's spinning > > away!] > > Yep - I was going to do this with a more modern drive (5.25") and stick > it in a wall-mounted cabinet along with a keypad and display (I've got > some nice vacuum-fluorescent 7-segment displays lined up for the display > bit). > > I'm hoping I can replace the drive's cover with a homebrew perspex one > without too much crud getting in - data reliability isn't important but > I'm not sure how reliable any embedded servo information will remain. Pick one of the stepper-motor drives -- they don't have servo information to worry about!. Some of them, Rodime being one that I remember. do still take _some_ information off the platter (like the position of the index pulse -- the hall sensor generates several pulses per revolution, it takes a single pulse from the disk at power-up to determine which of them is the index), but I guess you can find one that doesn't actually need to read anything. > > Other option is to drive the head voice coil directly - in theory that > bit's not too hard, but a lot of drives are clever enough to shut down > the spindle motor if something's amiss (such as the heads not responding > to movement from the logic!). I'm not sure how easy it'd be to work out > how to drive the spindle motor. Try an ST506 or ST412. Certainky on the latter the spindle motor driver is a separate PCB, and the _only_ connections to the rest of the drive are +5V and ground. That's also a stepper-motor drive... Can you find a dead/dying ST412? -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 7 18:32:58 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6166038.1094592806218.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthli nk.net> References: <6166038.1094592806218.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040907182846.0567eaa0@pc> At 04:33 PM 9/7/2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: >and we can expect the stuff you send him to magically appear on eBay for him to sell... Well, of course. All these docs are probably in a no-man's-land of unenforced copyrights belonging to long-dead companies. It doesn't really give anyone the right to redistribute them. What's the real difference between someone giving them away on a web site or someone collecting docs and selling a DVD on ebay? He gives free copies of the DVD to people who send him docs. I played this game once and made a very big pile of money at it. In the early 90s, I collected 3D models from artists with the understanding that I would put them on a CD and sell it and give them a free copy. I collected more than 500 models, generated a few hundred tileable textures with a Mac program, and sold (and gave away) thousands of CDs at $200. Arguably, he's created a collection and holds a "collection copyright" on his assembly and arrangement of public domain or abandoned docs. Could someone put his DVD online and could he justifably complain? Probably. - John From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Sep 7 18:39:06 2004 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Atari to release "new" hardware - the 7800! Message-ID: <000301c49533$de07a450$707ba8c0@xpdesk> For those of you who were at VCF/East and saw the talk from the developers of the Atari 7800..while they may have been disappointed the 7800 wasn't smash hit in ~1985.it may be in 2005! Atari (Infogrames) is releasing a miniaturized 7800. I wonder if any of the original developers will see any cash from their efforts 20 years ago. -Chandra Atari to Reissue Scores of Old Games By ANTHONY BREZNICAN AP Entertainment Writer LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Atari wants to take you back in time, and to get there, you can ride a "Centipede" or an "Asteroid," or bounce back and forth between the pixilated paddles of "Pong." The video game company told The Associated Press on Tuesday it plans to reissue scores of its classic titles from yesteryear on a single disc that can be played on the game consoles Xbox and PlayStation 2. "Atari Anthology" will feature 85 games and is scheduled to go on sale in November at a cost of about $20. But it's only one of the nostalgia projects Atari will push into the market then. The second is Atari Flashback, a slightly miniaturized version of the old Atari 7800 from the mid-'80s. It will have 20 games built into it, including "Breakout," "Solaris," "Crystal Castles" and "Battlezone." Flashback will sell for $45 and include a pair of old-school joysticks. Atari isn't expecting its decades-old games to compete on a technical level, like "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City," "Halo" and "Madden NFL 2005" that feature colorful realistic graphics, fast-moving 3-D action and the freedom to roam at will. Instead, the company is aiming at the nostalgia market. "It's a time machine. You go back to your childhood and you play," Atari chief executive Bruno Bonnell said. And for gamers who weren't even born when the first PlayStation appeared? "The kids will think this is quick, this is fast to understand, and we don't need a manual to understand it," he added. "We're going after two generations." Even "Pong," perhaps the most primitive of the games with its simple white square bouncing across the screen, may still have some appeal. "The more primitive the better. It shows that video games are not just about high-end graphics or sophisticated representation. It's about the game-play, the challenge to the player," Bonnell said. The "Atari Anthology" disc will offer new twists on the games, too: "trippy mode," which renders the graphics in psychedelic colors, and "time warp" and "double speed," which can alter the pace of on-screen action. Besides its array of classic Atari 2600 and 7800 titles, the Atari Flashback console will include one previously unreleased game: "Saboteur." Reissuing classic games in the modern consoles has become common over the years. "Sonic the Hedgehog" and its sequels from the early 1990s turned up on Nintendo's GameCube, and the old martial-arts challenge "Street Fighter" series returned on PlayStation 2. But those titles still look like science-fiction dreaming compared to the jumping dots and boxes of the old Atari games. Still, there is a market for even those old games, and the Internet proves it: Countless sites offer free downloads of the programs for playing on PCs - leading to rampant bootlegging. But Bonnell downplayed the impact bootlegging could have on sales for "Atari Anthology" and the Atari Flashback console. "You're right to say that a lot of them are bootlegged, and the code is not the right code, and the color is not the right color. But here we're offering them ... and you don't go through collecting the games on the Internet and being scared of the viruses that are going to pollute your computer at some point." Despite their simple appearance, the games can be very difficult, he added - especially for people who are two decades out of practice. "They are not easy to master," Bonnell said. "Some people believe that because they are old games they will finish them very soon. But I think people will be sweating to finish." From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 7 18:46:19 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040907231347.0A03C3C58@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 07, 2004 04:13:47 PM Message-ID: <200409072346.i87NkKIG005085@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657361 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657564 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=163&item=5117657045 > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=3695381778 > > and thanks to the last four, I've had a few dozen people trying to Wget > the whole IBM section of the archive. > Geez, what a sleezeball! I like the terminals CD, it includes a copy of 'xterm' and most of what is there is part of a standard linux distro. I suspect that a bunch of what is on this guys CD's has "not to be sold for profit" clauses. Zane From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 7 18:50:31 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Linear motor FDD References: <000301c49533$de07a450$707ba8c0@xpdesk> Message-ID: <001101c49535$767c9d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> This talk of stepper motor disk drives makes me want to ask again: Anybody ever seen the 3.5" FDD that used a linear step motor for the positioner? I had one once and dismantled it. Forgot what the units make & model no. might have been so as to look for another. John A. from the pre-collector days, apologies From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 18:54:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit Message-ID: <200409072354.QAA21013@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of >> several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that >> *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure >> what. > >My first 3 thoughts, in no particular order : > >Barometer (or other manometer-type pressure gauge) > >Mercury delay line (hey, that's on-topic) > >Developing Dageurrotypes (?spell) (No, I don't intend to try this, I may >hack cameras as well as computers, but I don't intend to start boiling >mercury...) > >-tony > Hi Telescope makers use it to make small "pin holes" in photo graphic plates and film. You smash some and it makes hundreds of tiny specs that are almost perfectly spherical. These cast shadows on the the photo material. The film that is exposed turns dark, leaving the tiny clear spots. One simple mask off the ones that are not used. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 7 19:14:33 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: <20040908001431.FAJZ13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission >> to sell the material from bitsavers. >> >> I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future >> usenet postings. >> >> For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold >> in any form. > >And likewise, what little information I have contributed to bitsavers >is not to be sold. It's to be shared on bitsavers, but I do not >want any money exchanged for anything that I donate. I have Barry's DVD - I find it very useful, and it's the cheapest way for me to get the material (in fact, it's the ONLY way for me to get some of the material). I also see a fair bit of material that I have scanned on it, and I have no trouble with that - in fact I have told Barry to go ahead and use any of my material that he wants. I recently (yesterday) finished all 7 SuperPET manuals (1500+ pages) and I have already contacted Barry to see if he wanted me to send them early (I have a lot of material backed up and probably won't get to a site update for another month) - I expect to see them on the DVD once he gets them, and I also do not expect the price will increase because they were added (think about why that might be). I live in the country where A) there is no high-speed service B) they are not putting in high-speed service, and C) they aren't planning to put in high-speed service in the forseeable future (I ask every couple of months). On a good day, I can get 2k/second download speeds, and I can sometimes keep that up for 20 mins before the connection goes down. [Thats why it takes time to update my site - I have to burn it to CD's and physically take it into the city] Having access to a DVD with gigs of material, a lot of which I will use is well worth what Barry is asking ... For that price, he is buying a good quality DVR-R blank, and spending his own time to burn it and ship it. Not to mention that he has obviously spent some time downloading and organizing the material. If he were charging $100 or $200, I might take offense, however he's charging $35, and frequently publishes the places where those who have the ability can get the material for free (except apparently some people don't want him to let people know where their "free" stuff is - Not sure how that makes sense). $35 buys about 20 mins of my time - I would spend a lot more than that trying to get the material via a modem, which would likely be unsuccessful. I've already extracted several very large files from the DVD that I've been trying to get for some time but have found to be "impossible" due to the size. I doubt he's making any substantial profit at it - in fact, given the amount of material that he himself has scanned and archived, I expect it's cost him lots in time and money over the years (it sure has me!). If he is able to make $5 or $10 a DVD, then I think thats good - it *MIGHT* be enough to keep him doing it, and might even help recover some of his other costs - but as noted above, I doubt he's making any real money from it. Are you willing to take the time to burn and mail DVD's of your "free" material when someone asks? How about if 10 people a week ask? Your position would prevent me from obtaining the material because I cannot download it directly from your site. I am also wondering how you manage restricting your site to only freenet subscribers? - clearly anyone using an ISP is paying for the delivery of your material, and that constitutes "money changing hands". In fact, they are providing delivery of your material strictly as a "for profit" business - they have absolutely no interest in preserving vintage documentation at all. A DVD - reasonably priced for the service it represents is no different - it's just a means of delivery (except in this case it is being done from someone who is active in collecting and preserving the material). Clearly he is not charging for the actual material (otherwise why would he keep telling people where to get it directly - well - at least the sources he's permitted to give out). And yes, I have also purchased Walnut Creek and InfoMagic CD collections which work out to a considerably higher $$ per meg than Barrys offering (and they are mass produced at far less cost than Barry's offering) - because for some people (like me), physical media is the best way to get the material. No: I don't know Barry other than that I have communicated with him a few times regarding documents that I needed or had available. Whew!!! --- nuff said. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 7 19:22:19 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever" (Sep 7, 14:35) References: Message-ID: <10409080122.ZM18040@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 14:35, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Well, whatever you do, don't try putting it in hollowed-out .357 magnum > > bullets, nor even .38 specials. It's illegal, and no fun at all. > > Is that a veiled suggestion? If so, what is the result (besides internal > Hg poisoning, let alone internal bleeding, tissue damage, etc.)? Try it on a watermelon or a gallon plastic container full of water and you'll see. If you use a normal .38 special, it will make a hole (the plastic container would leak, from one or more likely two small holes). A hollow-point round will make it shatter -- the hollow point expands and more energy is transferred into the target, more quickly. A Glaser safety slug will make it explode, and a mercury-filled round has a similar effect. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 7 19:43:38 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <413E55BA.3050603@pacbell.net> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Al Kossow >>Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 6:43 PM >>To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available >> >> >> >> he does say in >>his auction that he has permission from the various sites >>to put the DVD together >> >>-- >> >>Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission >>to sell the material from bitsavers. >> >>I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future >>usenet postings. >> >>For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold >>in any form. >> Barry asked permission for the stuff I have on my Sol web site and I freely gave it to him. First, the point of my having the web site is so that the information gets spread so it doesn't get lost. Second, I don't own copyrights on any of it. Many of the manuals I spent oodles of time correcting and formatting after OCR, and I've spent time buying or collecting and scanning a lot of it, but much of it came from people who donated documents or scans to me. I feel like all of it is a group contribution. Barry makes it quite clear that he will point out where you can download most of it from the web, and what he is selling is the convenience of having it all collected in a convenient form. Barry has also personally scanned a lot of the documents. So in the end, I have no problem with it. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 19:49:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <10409072326.ZM17768@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I'm surprised nobody has thought of the obvious: mercury is > considerably denser than glass, so the glass would float on the > surface. All you have to do is skim it. Never mind skimmed milk, > Sellam, you can have skimmed quicksilver ;-) I noticed it was actually staying on the surface, but I don't want to touch it! That'd be dangerous. I just want to quaff it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 19:51:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040907224249.2E2343C54@spies.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > Mr Watzman did not ask, and I would not have given him permission > to sell the material from bitsavers. > > I have asked him not to mention my URL in any of his future > usenet postings. > > For the record, I DO NOT want the material from my site to be sold > in any form. I guess the cool thing for Barry to do would be to share with you at least half of what he gets in sales. I can't even begin to imagine the hundreds (thousands?) of hours you've spent doing this, and for him to reap monetary reward is, while not entirely unethical, is sorta cheezy. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 7 19:55:54 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com><10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413B24C6.9020505@hp.com><10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> Message-ID: <00a201c4953e$99a27b90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe R. said that he had some in response to a query I posted some time ago. He never found them I guess. I'm still looking for a couple, exact same part as you are. Then again, I'm sure he's got his hands full these days. If you find a source for these Bob, please let me know! Jay From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 19:58:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > I believe that a complaint can be filed against the seller and eBay can > shut them down. However, since some of this stuff probably still belongs > to IBM, I would not want someone to attempt to shut down bitsavers because > of this. Unfortunately, Al really doesn't have any recourse here. First of all, as you allude, Al does not own the material. He owns the labor he put into scanning it all, as well as the bandwidth that is used to download the documents, but those are somewhat intangible. Since Al is not charging for the documents (he couldn't anyway since he doesn't own the copyright) and is in fact allowing for them to be freely downloaded, he really can't prevent people from doing this. If Al tried to sell the documents, or otherwise charge for access, he steps into a gray area that could get him into a lot of trouble if someone should decide to prosecute (as far as I can tell it would be a pretty open and shut case). The best tool we have is shame. Barry should be shamed for not sharing the revenues with Al. The idiot in Israel selling the CD as a regular product in his eBay store should be bombarded with hate mail. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 20:09:47 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever Message-ID: <200409080109.SAA21059@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> I'm surprised nobody has thought of the obvious: mercury is >> considerably denser than glass, so the glass would float on the >> surface. All you have to do is skim it. Never mind skimmed milk, >> Sellam, you can have skimmed quicksilver ;-) > >I noticed it was actually staying on the surface, but I don't want to >touch it! That'd be dangerous. I just want to quaff it. Hi From what, the glass or the mercury? Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 20:09:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <20040908001431.FAJZ13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: Well, I can see this turning into a major flame war. I think it comes down to an issue of ethics. My take is that you can be cool and share your profits with people who have actually put in the time to make your "product" possible, or you can be greedy and keep it all to yourself, justifying this sort of behavior in various ways. That much, in this rather gray area, is pretty black and white as far as I'm concerned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 20:11:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409080109.SAA21059@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I'm surprised nobody has thought of the obvious: mercury is > >> considerably denser than glass, so the glass would float on the > >> surface. All you have to do is skim it. Never mind skimmed milk, > >> Sellam, you can have skimmed quicksilver ;-) > > > >I noticed it was actually staying on the surface, but I don't want to > >touch it! That'd be dangerous. I just want to quaff it. > > Hi > From what, the glass or the mercury? I don't want to touch the mercury because I might be poisoned, and the glass shards in it might cut me. I want to get the glass out of it so I can drink it without worrying about my throat getting cut up in the process. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 20:14:47 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) Message-ID: <200409080114.SAA21074@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >Joe R. said that he had some in response to a query I posted some time ago. >He never found them I guess. I'm still looking for a couple, exact same part >as you are. Then again, I'm sure he's got his hands full these days. If you >find a source for these Bob, please let me know! > >Jay > > Hi How are these parts made. Is it something in plastic that can be molded. If so, someone should get some mold material and make a mold before the last one is broken. Dwight From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 7 16:24:05 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Linear motor FDD In-Reply-To: <001101c49535$767c9d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20040908011945.IHXW19123.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > From: "John Allain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:50:31 -0400 > Subject: Linear motor FDD > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > This talk of stepper motor disk drives makes me want to ask again: > > Anybody ever seen the 3.5" FDD that used a linear step motor for > the positioner? I had one once and dismantled it. Forgot what the > units make & model no. might have been so as to look for another. > > John A. Oh yea. That was in 1.44MB/120MB drive. Cheers, Wizard From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 7 20:28:16 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409072153.OAA20870@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. > Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or > most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). > It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure > to vapor. Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely used as an antibiotic, as well. The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend to have very short lives if they are not careful. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 7 20:36:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever Message-ID: <200409080136.SAA21088@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "William Donzelli" > >> I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. > >This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty >reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. > >> Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or >> most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). >> It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure >> to vapor. > >Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the >body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely >used as an antibiotic, as well. > >The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty >quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short >periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru >amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend >to have very short lives if they are not careful. Hi People that made hats used to use mercury ( I don't know what for ) but that is where the term "Mad as a Hatter" came from. The vapor was known to cause mental problems as well as other physical problems. Maybe it is already too late for Sellam. Remember his Altar comment. A sure sign he is missing some marbles. I used to handle the stuff a lot when I was a kid and it hasn't hardly effected me ( has it? ). Dwight > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 7 20:36:42 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:58 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: Message-ID: <007901c49544$4bab0370$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: RE: 20,046 page doc archive still available > On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > I believe that a complaint can be filed against the seller and eBay can > > shut them down. However, since some of this stuff probably still belongs > > to IBM, I would not want someone to attempt to shut down bitsavers because > > of this. > > Unfortunately, Al really doesn't have any recourse here. First of all, as > you allude, Al does not own the material. He owns the labor he put into > scanning it all, as well as the bandwidth that is used to download the > documents, but those are somewhat intangible. Since Al is not charging > for the documents (he couldn't anyway since he doesn't own the copyright) > and is in fact allowing for them to be freely downloaded, he really can't > prevent people from doing this. If Al tried to sell the documents, or > otherwise charge for access, he steps into a gray area that could get him > into a lot of trouble if someone should decide to prosecute (as far as I > can tell it would be a pretty open and shut case). > > The best tool we have is shame. Barry should be shamed for not sharing > the revenues with Al. The idiot in Israel selling the CD as a regular > product in his eBay store should be bombarded with hate mail. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Since when does money have to change hands for somebody to prosecute you for having copyrighted material reproduced and distributed? I would get in the same amount of trouble putting Windows XP on a server for free download as I would be for making cdr copies and selling them (same for the manuals). So if its illegal to be offering the copyrighted material in the first place, why would Al want to share in the profits from this activity in the first place? The only reason either party gets away with it is because the products are old and not sold anymore so the manufacturer could care less. If any of the manuals were current I would bet the owners would be looking into legal action in both cases. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 20:37:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives Message-ID: I'm trying to connect up various MO (magneto-optical) drives to a PC via SCSI interface and having consistent problems. The adapter in question is an Adaptec AHA-1542CP. The errors are: Host adapter status: 00h - No host adapter error Target status: 02h - Check condition Sense key: 02h - Not ready Sense code: 0Ah I'm not a total SCSI expert so I'm not figuring this out. Is there a termination issue? As far as I can tell both sides of the chain are terminated. The drive is hooked up externally and I'm using an active terminator. The host adapter should be terminating internally. What generally causes the above errors? I'm getting it on multiple drives across multiple adapters. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 20:40:25 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Keyboards & Conductive Rubber References: <20040907031029.DJI13092.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca><001f01c494ca$83bc5900$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <20040907220051.GB11629@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <003d01c49544$d02f1dc0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Ethan said: > Isn't the reason the original equipment came with rubber pads was to > minimize > wear of the PCB contacts? As I said, this has been working fine for a couple of years now. The channel up and down keys get a LOT of use too. I'd be afraid copper tape would oxidize and you'd be right back where you started. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 7 20:40:52 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit In-Reply-To: <200409072354.QAA21013@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Telescope makers use it to make small "pin holes" in photo graphic > plates and film. You smash some and it makes hundreds of tiny specs > that are almost perfectly spherical. These cast shadows on the the > photo material. The film that is exposed turns dark, leaving the > tiny clear spots. One simple mask off the ones that are not used. One interesting place mercury is used is in near-frictionless bearings. Gyrocompasses from World War 2 used a big oscillating mercury bearing at the base to hold the sensitive element, which can get sort of heavy. The bearings essentially are a pool of mercury in a special bowl, and the part to be supported (in the case of gyros, the sensitive element) neatly just fits in, so it barely floats. In an Arma gyro, about a pint of mercury is used, I think. The term "oscillating" comes from a little mixer that sits in the bottom of the bowl, always running to keep the mercury in constant motion. This is to overcome any static vicosity in the mercury, which, like friction, is always greater than the dynamic viscosity. The difference is tiny, but the forces that work on a gyrocompass are tiny as well. I have an old Mk 10 Arma gyro, and I suppose that someday I will need to get some mercury, but to be realistic, I don't have nearly the skill to balance the thing. An unbalanced gyrocompass quickly turns into a very broken gyrocompass. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 20:50:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409080136.SAA21088@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Maybe it is already too late for Sellam. Remember his Altar comment. > A sure sign he is missing some marbles. I think that happened long before the mercury came along :) > I used to handle the stuff a lot when I was a kid and it hasn't > hardly effected me ( has it? ). That certainly explains things ;) My high school chemistry teacher let us roll it around in our hands for a short period of time. He was one of those old-school chemists that knew the real dangers and saftey margins of this kind of stuff and was common sense about it. Any other teacher would have gone hysterical I'm sure. He used to go by Doc. If you called him by his proper name he would ignore you. One very interesting sensation is plunging your finger into a container of mercury. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 7 20:56:04 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: Message-ID: <00e601c49546$ffeb0c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Let me speak from my past history of owning software and manual copyrights. My argument does not center around law though, that's separate topic for which I hire lawyers. This is more of an owners view into when he decides to set loose the sharks.... If someone gave away an old manual to a very old release of our software to someone else, or another company, quite frankly it didn't raise our ire too much. The magic line of demarcation was when someone was charging for it and making money on it. If someone was selling our old manuals or use of the software, that was the only thing I needed to break out the enforcers of copyright. So, consider how DEC, IBM, HP, etc. etc. is going to view this. If we are a bunch of hobbyists trading images of obsolete manuals, it's not a lost source of revenue as chances are they (we) wouldn't pay for a real manual anyways, and it IS truely old stuff. However, by SELLING collections of old manuals on ebay (or elsewhere), you are definitely tweaking the nose of the bigboys as there is cash involved, however trivial. So, by actually SELLING copies of vintage manuals, you are taking the risk of pissing off those who's gracious understanding allows us to continue. I would bet a lot of money that HP still owns the copyrights to the old 21XX manuals and such and DOES have the right to enforce them on us if they wish. I perceive (not stating their stance) that they aren't that upset as long as it is hobbyists trading, freely. You get financial compensation in the picture and you have just shown them that it IS a case of lost revenue. Then they are liable to start actively enforcing the copyrights. Same principle... if a cop sees a guy at a rock concert lighting up, he probably wont do anything about it. If he sees a guy selling weed on a street corner, he's gonna bust him. Since I host mirrors of various vintage documents on classiccmp.org, I am EXTREMELY concerned about this stuff getting too much "light of day" as in Ebay. It certainly gives me pause to reconsider. Yes, I know people sell old manuals on ebay all the time. Usually an original, and in a qty of 1 or a set, and often with the hardware it was related to. But this is different. This is a huge set of docs, and reproduceable to the masses at will. I know instrumentation manuals are often sold on ebay too. Perhaps TEK, B&K, etc. are more lenient about this. Putting the CD on ebay is tantamount to forgetting to put the rolled up bath towel at the bottom of the door *GRIN* Jay From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Sep 7 20:49:31 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) In-Reply-To: <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> (Bob Shannon's message of "Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:08:39 -0400") References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> Message-ID: <200409080149.i881nVbP033966@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > How I broke my release mechanisim.... > > I had a reel of tape with a rather sticky write-enable ring mounted, > and it stuck to the hub. Even with the release tab lifted I was > unable to get this reel of tape off the hub. I managed to free the > offending reel of tape, but in the process the release tab got > whacked, and the cams under the tab cracked and split. Back in the 1980s when we had 7970Es hooked up to 3000s and in production, the release tabs used to crack once in a while too. I had one break off in my hand. I wasn't pulling on it any harder than usual, it just gave. The stress of repeated use weakens the plastic. Of course, back then, we had two 7970Es on that 3000, and a phone call led to an HP CE arriving to replace the broken part. -Frank McConnell From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 7 21:05:23 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com><10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413B24C6.9020505@hp.com><10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> <200409080149.i881nVbP033966@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <011801c49548$4d23eb00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Of course, back then, we had two 7970Es on that 3000, and a phone call > led to an HP CE arriving to replace the broken part. Oh Hell! (slaps palm of hand on forehead) THAT'S what I should have been doing, getting a maintenance contract. Ok, I'm off to call HP's customer care line, and get set up on a maintenance contract for two 2100's, 2748, 7900, 7970, etc. Cool! Sure will save me a bundle in buying old parts on ebay! *GRIN* Jay West From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 21:11:16 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <007001c494cd$506eed30$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0><007b01c494cf$d09e8f90$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0><012701c494ec$5af20660$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <001301c49504$60040320$71881442@computer> Message-ID: <00bc01c49549$21607fa0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Mike; Thanks very much! I was able to read them (just). I would never have figured out that crystal modification without the instructions. You da man. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications > err... > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010001.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010002.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010003.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010004.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010005.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010006.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010007.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010008.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010009.JPG > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/P1010010.JPG > > if you have any poblem reading any of it email me > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From paulpenn at knology.net Tue Sep 7 21:16:26 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <200409071559697.SM00103@work3> Message-ID: <00c101c49549$d892b120$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> James; My cup runneth over. That would be great if you could scan those. I have the first two, so for me, start at the bottom of the list and work up! There are about six folks I know of, and probably many others, who are looking for some of these manuals. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E Cosper" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications > >Heathkit Manual for the Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 >>Trainer, Model ETA-3400, part number 595-2271, copyright date 1979, 95 >>pages. >> >> If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the >>modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email >>me on or off-list. >> >> Paul Pennington >> Augusta, Georgia >> > > Greetings, > > Here is a list of the manuals I have: > > Microprocessor Trainer ET-3400 > part number 595-2021-06, copyright date 1977 > 113 Pages + 3 set Foldout + "price list 10/20/80". > > Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 > part number 595-2271-01, copyright date 1979 > 95 pages. > > Memory Input/Output Accessory ETA-3400 (Assembly) > part number 595-2170-03, copyright date 1979 > 57 Pages. + 1 set Foldout. > > Modification Kit for the Heathkit ET/ETW-3400 and 3400A > Microprocessor Trainers Model ETA-3400/EWA-3400. > part number 597-1954-02, copyright ???? > 21 Pages. > > I can scan these if there is interest in them. > > Later, James. > > > > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 7 18:03:35 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: References: <200409072153.OAA20870@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040908025915.KEIW14082.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> > > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. > > This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty > reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. > Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the > body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely > used as an antibiotic, as well. > > The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty > quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short > periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru > amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend > to have very short lives if they are not careful. Compounds in mercury? Such as? In old days before "safer" plating base metals with other metals was developed, like 140 years or more years ago, they used that same way to "gild" the stuff with gold or silver via the mercury amalgamation. Whew that must be very miserable lifetime back then as gilders. :-( Cheers, Wizard > > William Donzelli From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 7 22:08:17 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: <20040908025915.KEIW14082.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: > Compounds in mercury? Such as? Mercury can combine with lots of things. Probably the most common is the ore, cinnebar. I think it can even be part of some organic compounds. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From richlist at sias.us Tue Sep 7 21:59:34 2004 From: richlist at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: xenix In-Reply-To: <20040901174209.E74876@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040901184447.79068.qmail@web60910.mail.yahoo.com> <20040901174209.E74876@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200409080333.i883XF3c051066@huey.classiccmp.org> ** Reply to message from Fred Cisin on Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:42:56 -0700 (PDT) > On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ephraim Schoenfeld wrote: > > Hi > > I am trying to locate XENIX install disks > > would you know where to look ? > > I am helping a friend get a cnc machine up > > something made by cybermation > > Any help would greatly appreciated > > Which processor? > What disk format? > There are MANY variants of Xenix. I believe I have XENIX for Intel box. It's old and fits with manuals in 2 8" cube shaped boxes. 5 1/4 floppies. Rich Sias From dnr at horizon.bc.ca Tue Sep 7 22:45:48 2004 From: dnr at horizon.bc.ca (David Young) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Classic computers FREE to a good home! Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040907202433.01dbca90@mail.horizon.bc.ca> Hi! I'm new to this list, so please humour me. When I was a young lad, my dad, who was in the Radio business from 1925 onwards, lamented the loss of hundreds, if not thousands of classic radios. During the depression years, they robbed the old ones for parts and burned those beautiful wood cabinets for heat. With this in mind, I have kept/collected several old computers... all from the pre-Apple era. These include an IMS system (w/5mb HD!), 2 North*Star Horizon's, and (I may keep this last one) a Polymorphic 88. Terminals are by Morrow, a Lear-Siegler ADM-3A, a Cybernex L46006 and a Soroc-IQ-120. I even have and early Compaq luggable. The POLY-88 and the two N*S Horizons were my own machines. Now, sadly, I use an up to date PC. BTW: The Poly-88 is fitted out with dual N*Star floppies, but I do have the original serial cassette interface card! Now, I am moving and can no longer afford the space, so I wish to give them away - to someone who will appreciate them. They're too good to take to the dump. All were working when taken out of service... all have been stored indoors, and dry. All in very good nick. I have most of the diskettes (mostly 5 1/4" sizes) and original documentation. I also have a large box of spare S-100 memory and I/O cards (Even a clock/calendar on an S-100 board!) and various spare drives - in both 48 track SS & DS and 96 track DS - hard sector. Also have (if I can find it) a copy of McDos which grafted 96tpi floppies onto N*S Horizon disk systems. I think I may even have a printout of the source code for it! (No guarantees on that one!) I also have some old Borland publications and some original CPM documentation. Sadly, too much to keep and move. :( Ah! I hear you say... what is the catch? And, yes, there is one... and it's a biggie! I am in Victoria, B.C., and am not in a position to pack and ship. So, this offer is really only good for someone in Western Canada or the North West USA, who is willing to drive over and collect the stuff. The second catch is that its available only as one lot. Sorry, no time to get involved with 6 people who each want different bits. If you're interested, please reply off list, please. Many thanks. ---------- David Young, | ?galit?, libert?, Victoria, CANADA | fraternit? et Beaujolais. Personal Web-site at: http://www.horizon.bc.ca/~dnr Leica Reflex Forum web-page: http://www.horizon.bc.ca/~dnr/lrflex.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 7 23:02:44 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094574454.5833.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094574454.5833.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040907205852.W92232@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm hoping I can replace the drive's cover with a homebrew perspex one > without too much crud getting in - data reliability isn't important but > I'm not sure how reliable any embedded servo information will remain. Many drive manufacturers build show prototypes of their drives with clear plastic covers for showing off at tradeshows (Comdex, etc.) I use a Shugart 225 for classroom showing. It has a contoured clear plastic cover, shaped like the stamped steel usual cover. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 7 23:17:16 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... Message-ID: >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... >Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:29:32 +0100 (BST) > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems >like > > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some >games" to > >NO!!!! > >Sorry, but I object to technical museums that present replicas (and >emulators hidden inside the case of an older machine, and...) as the real >thing. You would not accept an art gallery that showed copies of the >famous paintings, you shouldn't accept it for computers either. > >If I go to a museum it's because I want to see the real machine -- one I >don't happen to already have. I don't want to see a fake. > >-tony I mostly agree. Technical museums shouldn't play games with "fake" hardware. Demonstrating said hardware is another matter. It would be really cool to sit at the console of a Univac and run some calculations on it, watch the power meters twitch as the accumulators spin. Maybe run the infamous election prediction algorithm :) Running an actual Univac, however, would be cost prohibitive, in electricity alone if not in maintanance. Get a Univac all set up, maybe with just enough B+ to get some of the heater elements lit up for show, complete and in working order, mind you. But if people want to play with one have an accurate simulator set up, driven by a PDP11 or Palm Pilot or something equally humorous. It would clearly be marked as a simulator, but you'd get the full effect of operating a Univac. Maybe even have it blow a tube now and then :) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 7 23:36:50 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: References: <200409080136.SAA21088@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040908001531.04e6cfc8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > I used to handle the stuff a lot when I was a kid and it hasn't > > hardly effected me ( has it? ). That's the confusing part - you can't tell. My grandfather and I got in a somewhat heated discussion one day about the safety of things like soldering, lead handling, and whatnot. My grandfather said rather emphatically - "I've used my teeth on lead sinkers my whole life, and have been soldering just as long - it's *never* affected me! I'm still an intelligent individual in command of my faculties!" I replied: "I'm not doubting you're a smart guy. But how do you know the lead didn't affect you? Without that lead in your system you might have been twice as smart as you are now." That pretty much ended the heated part of the discussion. At times, I still wonder about that, about *myself*. I can't hack code nearly as well as I could, my memory *sucks*, and sometimes seems to be getting worse... Could it be the lead? Who knows... ...and then I remember the one thing that my grandfather and I agreed on that day: You can't let "fear of personal safety" get in the way of life. Reasonable precautions are fine and dandy, but when you stop living life due to the "perceived dangers..." Might as well put a mercury-filled bullet thru the brain. >My high school chemistry teacher let us roll it around in our hands for a >short period of time. I didn't have a chance to do that, but... >One very interesting sensation is plunging your finger into a container of >mercury. I actually did talk my chem. teacher into letting me do this. I didn't have access to a lot of mercury, and she made me wear a plastic glove (it was actually quite thin, so it didn't hamper the experience) - the mercury was only deep enough to reach the first knuckle, but that was enough to experience the 'sensation' - it's tough to describe. =-=-=-=-=-=-= and =-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > Compounds in mercury? Such as? > >Mercury can combine with lots of things. Probably the most common is the >ore, cinnebar. Silver - it was used "back in the day" to soften silver used in dentistry. They have since found other compounds to do that, but... > I think it can even be part of some organic compounds. *That* is what would scare me "just enough" to not drink it. Also: Once drunk, *it's gotta go somewhere.* Once done, I poop it, right? No big deal, you say, right? Erm... then it goes to the processing station, then into the river in which a *ton* of fish live that I like to eat, which I can't eat anymore because it's combined with *their organic systems* making it more readily available to hit my bloodstream. Yes, there is enough American Indian in me to know about the "circle of life" and I don't wanna frell with that. Erm... no. I think I'll pass on poisoning a bajillion fish just to feel some weird liquid metal rolling around in my gut. But you go ahead, Sellam. I'm not stopping you! You're on the left coast, which I doubt I'll have money to visit for quite some time. But if I do, remind me not to eat seafood, eh? ;-P Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 23:40:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Linear motor FDD In-Reply-To: <20040908011945.IHXW19123.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Sep 7, 4 09:24:05 pm Message-ID: > > This talk of stepper motor disk drives makes me want to ask again: > > > > Anybody ever seen the 3.5" FDD that used a linear step motor for > > the positioner? I had one once and dismantled it. Forgot what the The 5.25E drives used in the Epson QX10 (and I believe the TF20 floppy drive unit for the HX20, etc) use a linear positioner. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 7 23:57:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040908001531.04e6cfc8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > But you go ahead, Sellam. I'm not stopping you! You're on the left coast, > which I doubt I'll have money to visit for quite some time. But if I do, > remind me not to eat seafood, eh? ;-P I'll be passing (get it? "passing"?) through the Great Lakes area around the time I plan this little "experiment" :) Seriously, I do not intend to drink this stuff. That would be silly. What I'm really planning to do is make mercury eyedrops for a Halloween costume experiment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Sep 8 00:33:18 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094559460.5851.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040908053318.GD27849@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 12:17:40PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-09-05 at 23:14 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've got some quicksilver that I liberated from some evacuated glass tubes > > Actually, that reminds me - I saw a chap in the UK trying to get rid of > several kilos of the stuff a short while ago. I can't help thinking that > *something* interesting could be made using it, although I'm not sure > what. You could use it for building a liquid mirror telescope and make some astronomists rather happy. Google for "liquid mirror telescope". Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 00:47:18 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso References: <200409072153.OAA20870@clulw009.amd.com> <20040908025915.KEIW14082.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: <001701c49567$5b6f2fc0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> in the old days they used to give murcury rubs for syphlis! ed ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > > > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. > > > > This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty > > reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. > > Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the > > body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely > > used as an antibiotic, as well. > > > > The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty > > quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short > > periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru > > amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend > > to have very short lives if they are not careful. > > Compounds in mercury? Such as? > > In old days before "safer" plating base metals with other metals was > developed, like 140 years or more years ago, they used that same way > to "gild" the stuff with gold or silver via the mercury amalgamation. > > Whew that must be very miserable lifetime back then as gilders. :-( > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > > > > William Donzelli > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 00:52:11 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <006001c49532$19cbb320$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <006b01c49567$fc9352a0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will eventually break and need repair...... I have NO spares for 2100 processors...... ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 4:26 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > SW > Simple. > Have running software. It requires research as to what could be unique and > interesting. But there will be finds for you to make and then therefore > your visitors. For common machines (C64,etc.) you could run it on the > actual HW. For larger things use a simulator and have the wires disappear > into the artifact just as if it was that machine doing the processing. > Seems like obvious choices. > > HW > There is an 8" Fujitsu SMD HD here that I once had enough of to run with the > cover off the diagnostics made it do non trivial things and a crash did not > happen in the one test we did. The cover may have even been planar, > meaning it would be easy to make a see-through one. > > John A. > > > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 00:52:21 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <008a01c494ef$e7bca110$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <10409072110.ZM17585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <007301c49568$023ce860$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Pete: are we going to actually spin this drive up after bereakeing the seal on it? I thought bad things would happen....... ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 1:10 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > On Sep 7 2004, 8:32, ed sharpe wrote: > > yes.... the visual of seeing the heads seek in and out.... I > suppose you > > could pared the heads so they do not land and do not even hardly > spin the > > thing up just make the heads seek...... > > The large Fujitsu SMD drives (smaller capacity than an Eagle, but about > the same physical size, 14" platters) have perspex HDA covers, and you > can see the heads moving quite well. I have an M2284 like that. > > Of course, you can do it with a 5.25" winchester or even a 3.5" one as > well, if it's the type that has a flat top cover (note that some > Seagate 3.5" drives have a flat *baseplate* to which all the gubbins > are mounted -- it looks like just a cover, but it isn't). Just take > off the cover, and use it as a template to cut out and drill a perspex > replacement. Or even cover it with clingwrap (saran wrap, I think you > colonists call it), but keep people's fingers away from it. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 00:52:30 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: Message-ID: <007701c49568$0781c8e0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> I see your point on that Tony...... ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 3:29 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > > > > >>> Jules, yes a large hard drive seeing would be very > > >>> interesting. .... the size of a washing machine but > > >>> all glassed in top... lots of power lots of heat...... > > > > While I have not been following every message in this thread..It seems like > > a replica might be the best way to go. Could definitely "play some games" to > > NO!!!! > > Sorry, but I object to technical museums that present replicas (and > emulators hidden inside the case of an older machine, and...) as the real > thing. You would not accept an art gallery that showed copies of the > famous paintings, you shouldn't accept it for computers either. > > If I go to a museum it's because I want to see the real machine -- one I > don't happen to already have. I don't want to see a fake. > > -tony > > From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Wed Sep 8 01:08:32 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Fwd: survived another one! Message-ID: <1094623712.28982.203909886@webmail.messagingengine.com> Glad to hear that you're still with us Joe! So, how 'bout them hurricanes ;P ? By the way, you wouldn't happen to know how bad (or good) NHC did with the forecast? I'm only asking because I work over at JTWC (Joint Typhoon Warning Center) here in Pearl Harbor, and we just love to make fun of those guys over there. It's funny that they say they're busy over there when there are only two storms. 2+ storms are the norm for us! And we don't get an "off" season (don't forget about the southern hemisphere!). Yeah, it seems like Florida, Taiwan, the Philippines & Korea are just bad places to live this year. ----- Original message ----- From: "Joe R." To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:16:30 -0400 Subject: survived another one! Second hurricane in three weeks!! Just got power back after hurricane Frances. This one was HUGE!!!! It reached from the FIorida Keys to Atlanta Ga! It started raining here Friday. HEAVY rain and winds all day Saturday and Sunday. More rain Monday (and a curfew in effect). Today (1:30 PM Tuesday) some rain bands are still passing through. Three tornadoes in this area yesterday and another today. The worst of the storm was south of us this time and everything around here that could be blown down was already down due to Charlie so now as much damage this time but HUGE amounts of rain. I set my canoe outside last week and it was FILLED completely full of rain by Friday night. Luckily Florida is flat so rain doesn't concentrate much. NOW it looks like we're in the path of Hurricane Ivan!!! It's scheduled to be in this area about Sunday or Monday. UnF***ING believable! joe From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Sep 8 01:23:35 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Classic computers FREE to a good home! Message-ID: <147.33285810.2e6fff67@aol.com> Hi David;; I had at one time over 20 of those classic radios when I was a kid. Now I only have one, a Stennite. I too have slipped to collecting classic computers and using a PC. I am in Astoria, Oregon, USA and could come up and pick up the lot in Victoria, BC. I am particularly interested in the IMS and the Soroc and would pass any of the ones I wasn't interested in on to other collectors. I have had a couple of Northstar Advantages but never a Polymorphic. I would bring a Toyota Van. How soon do you need to move them? Paxton Hoag Astoria, Oregon From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Sep 8 01:24:48 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Classic computers FREE to a good home! Message-ID: Sorry for the public post, that was supposed to be a private reply Paxton Astoria, OR From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 8 02:01:54 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: "ed sharpe" "Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays...." (Sep 7, 22:52) References: <008a01c494ef$e7bca110$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <10409072110.ZM17585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <007301c49568$023ce860$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <10409080801.ZM18312@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 22:52, ed sharpe wrote: > Pete: are we going to actually spin this drive up after bereakeing the seal > on it? I thought bad things would happen....... ed Of course you're going to spin it up. Drives are surprisingly tough. I've run drives with the cover off several times. To avoid a head crash, avoid dust. If you think the air might be dusty, disable the head movement and let it spin for a while to move any remaining dust out of the way -- winchesters have a small internal filter which filters the air as it is dragged round by the platters. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 8 02:41:57 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso" (Sep 7, 23:08) References: Message-ID: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 23:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > Compounds in mercury? Such as? > > Mercury can combine with lots of things. Probably the most common is the > ore, cinnebar. I think it can even be part of some organic compounds. It readily reacts with even dilute nitric acid to form nitrates, or with aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) to form mercuric chloride, also known as corrosive sublimate. It reacts slowly with sulphur, chlorine, or oxygen (cinnabar is mercury sulphide). Pure mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may explain something about some artists). It reacts dangerously rapidly with bromine, and reacts with ammonia (don't try this at home!). The oxide reacts with quite a lot of things; it's used to make mercuric sulphate which is (was?) used as for some organic reactions. BTW, the reactions with oxygen and sulphur are very slow, which is why mercury vapour is, well, mercury vapour (rather than mercury oxide); and why the advice that used to be given to use flowers of sulphur (finely powdered sulphur) to mop up mercury spills is not very good (use zinc powder instead, to make a non-volatile amalgam). Some of the compounds are very toxic, and some can react with organic materials to produce organo-mercuric compounds (some list members are old enough to remember the Japanese fishermen who were poisoned by consuming them in fish over a long period). Lots of these are liquids with high toxic vapours. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 8 02:41:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever" (Sep 7, 21:28) References: Message-ID: <10409080841.ZM18331@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 21:28, William Donzelli wrote: > > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. > > This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty > reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. > > > Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or > > most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). > > It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure > > to vapor. > > Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the > body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely > used as an antibiotic, as well. > > The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty > quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short > periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru > amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend > to have very short lives if they are not careful. That's because of *chronic* exposure. The risk from a single small dose is not very high (though obviously it depends on the dose); your body will excrete most of the mercury (but not very fast, and over the last couple of decades, what's regarded as a "safe" level has been reduced quite a lot). The problems come when repeated exposure causes ingestion or absorbtion faster than you can excrete it. That's why spilt mercury is dangerous. It gets into small spaces, and takes a very long time (years) to vapourise (the vapour pressure is very low but so is the toxic level). Various mercury compounds have been used medically (eg mercuric chloride and mercuric iodide were used as antiseptics and fungicides). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 8 03:37:55 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040908103755.12222fc2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Adaptec AHA-1542CP. Ewwww! ISA busmaster DMA SCSI. Avoid this, if it is a PCI machine or if you have more then 16 MB of RAM. Try to do it with a PCI based machine and an Adaptec 2940 or NCR / Symbios 53C810. > Host adapter status: 00h - No host adapter error > Target status: 02h - Check condition > Sense key: 02h - Not ready > Sense code: 0Ah Maybe a drive error? I've seen several dead MO drives. Usually the positioner was worn out... > The host adapter should be terminating internally. IIRC you have to enable termination in the SCSI BIOS setup. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 8 05:25:21 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094639122.7420.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 18:37 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm trying to connect up various MO (magneto-optical) drives to a PC via > SCSI interface and having consistent problems. The adapter in question is > an Adaptec AHA-1542CP. > > The errors are: > > Host adapter status: 00h - No host adapter error That makes it sound more like a software issue or misconfig with the PC itself... > I'm not a total SCSI expert so I'm not figuring this out. I don't think there's any such thing as a SCSI expert - it never all quite works as expected :) > Is there a > termination issue? As far as I can tell both sides of the chain are > terminated. The drive is hooked up externally and I'm using an active > terminator. The host adapter should be terminating internally. Hmm, do check that the drives don't have their own termination jumper that's set - having the bus terminated twice at one end could cause all sorts of problems (and in theory damage devices on the bus, although I've never seen that happen in practice) > What generally causes the above errors? I'm getting it on multiple drives > across multiple adapters. Are you certain the card(s) and driver(s) are set OK? eg. under linux I can do: cat /proc/scsi/sg/host_strs and get: Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8 aic7892: Ultra160 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8 aic7860: Ultra Single Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 3/253 SCBs ... so I can tell that the system's talking to the two controllers I have in this machine, regardless of the state of any connected devices. Maybe Adaptec have some DOS-based diags you can try by booting from a floppy. I have no idea if the 1542 auto-terminates; it's probably too old - but IME Adaptec's auto-termination sucks and I always set termination for their boards via jumpers just to be on the safe side. cheers Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 8 06:11:24 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040908070703.024cfdc8@192.168.0.1> At 12:17 AM 9/8/2004, you wrote: > enough B+ to get some of the heater elements lit up for show, B+? Thought that was plate voltage? Dang, did those Univacs heat the plates up? Overclocking even back then, cool! (or hot). I've lit up the plates on some ham radio xmitters, but all you'd probably need is a 120A 6.3v filament xmfr. Sorry, just picking. :-) Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 8 06:16:20 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Classic computers FREE to a good home! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040908071346.02d56c60@192.168.0.1> At 02:24 AM 9/8/2004, you wrote: >Sorry for the public post, that was supposed to be a private reply > I don't know, I think the public replies are a good thing. Let's people know the list is working and stuff is being saved. You see a post from someone who has something available, or someone who needs help and never see a followup and it makes you feel, why bother? I know I was encouraged to see such a quick, positive response. Ed Kelleher From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Sep 8 06:29:54 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Tek References: <00e601c49546$ffeb0c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <02ad01c49597$29ea0760$7900a8c0@athlon1200> For the record, Tek has released copyright (but in a controlled fashion) for docs relating to all instruments they no longer support. The release note is on their site somewhere. Look for 'Tekrel.pdf.' Would that others should follow their lead! Cheers DaveB, NZ From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Wed Sep 8 09:16:44 2004 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Simh on Gameboy Message-ID: <298.747T2200T9163616rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> from Slashdot, http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/gbaunix/ someone has ported pdp11 from sihm to run on a gameboy advanced with unix v5 -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: rachael@rachael.dyndns.org url: http://rachael.dyndns.org fido: 2:237/38.8 From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 8 08:45:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Simh on Gameboy References: <298.747T2200T9163616rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <16703.3327.425584.458501@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jacob" == Jacob Dahl Pind writes: Jacob> from Slashdot, Jacob> http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/gbaunix/ someone has Jacob> ported pdp11 from sihm to run on a gameboy advanced with unix Jacob> v5 That's neat -- not quite as wild as Tom Hunter's Cyber emulator running on a Pocket PC... paul From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 09:58:18 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? In-Reply-To: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a64040908075841fde839@mail.gmail.com> I've just got a 380z chain network server. Without keyboard alas. The tv and monitor cables are not connected to anything. There is a cable but I can't see where it goes. Dp you have one of these you can have a look for me. I think someone might of taken out one of the boards. But any way whilst searching for info on this found : http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=326737CF.4F46%40ncl.ac.uk Which says : Yep. We had 4 bbc model A's at that time, complete with those little cream tape recorders, while the 380Z had twin floppies. There was a small network filesystem on cassette the beebs had to load after power-on, then they connected via rs-232 to a couple of pins on the *parallel* port of the 380Z. I can't remember exactly (this was 1984 and I was half the age I am now!) but I think you could still use the 380Z normally. Dan From MGemeny at pgcps.org Wed Sep 8 10:21:45 2004 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) Message-ID: I should have a spare or two. But this is just not the time of year for me to find them and get them shipped. Too busy with the Haunted House. Can it wait until November? Mike Gemeny. From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 10:21:34 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso References: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <005201c495b7$88175200$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> "Pure mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may explain something about some artists)". Yes... other pigments got them too! but in the case of old 'one ear Vincent you also can mix in syphilis and also drinking absinth ( had word wood in it goggle this for more info). the painters life was full of toxins and infection! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > On Sep 7 2004, 23:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Compounds in mercury? Such as? > > > > Mercury can combine with lots of things. Probably the most common is > the > > ore, cinnebar. I think it can even be part of some organic compounds. > > It readily reacts with even dilute nitric acid to form nitrates, or > with aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) to form > mercuric chloride, also known as corrosive sublimate. It reacts slowly > with sulphur, chlorine, or oxygen (cinnabar is mercury sulphide). Pure > mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may > explain something about some artists). It reacts dangerously rapidly > with bromine, and reacts with ammonia (don't try this at home!). The > oxide reacts with quite a lot of things; it's used to make mercuric > sulphate which is (was?) used as for some organic reactions. BTW, the > reactions with oxygen and sulphur are very slow, which is why mercury > vapour is, well, mercury vapour (rather than mercury oxide); and why > the advice that used to be given to use flowers of sulphur (finely > powdered sulphur) to mop up mercury spills is not very good (use zinc > powder instead, to make a non-volatile amalgam). > > Some of the compounds are very toxic, and some can react with organic > materials to produce organo-mercuric compounds (some list members are > old enough to remember the Japanese fishermen who were poisoned by > consuming them in fish over a long period). Lots of these are liquids > with high toxic vapours. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 10:37:02 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso References: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <005201c495b7$88175200$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <006c01c495b9$b0388900$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> should have said in the previous message.....absinth ( had worm wood in it goggle this for more info). ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:21 AM Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > "Pure > mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may > explain something about some artists)". > > Yes... other pigments got them too! but in the case of old 'one ear > Vincent you also can mix in syphilis and also drinking absinth ( had word > wood in it goggle this for more info). > > the painters life was full of toxins and infection! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Turnbull" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:41 AM > Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > > > > On Sep 7 2004, 23:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Compounds in mercury? Such as? > > > > > > Mercury can combine with lots of things. Probably the most common is > > the > > > ore, cinnebar. I think it can even be part of some organic compounds. > > > > It readily reacts with even dilute nitric acid to form nitrates, or > > with aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) to form > > mercuric chloride, also known as corrosive sublimate. It reacts slowly > > with sulphur, chlorine, or oxygen (cinnabar is mercury sulphide). Pure > > mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may > > explain something about some artists). It reacts dangerously rapidly > > with bromine, and reacts with ammonia (don't try this at home!). The > > oxide reacts with quite a lot of things; it's used to make mercuric > > sulphate which is (was?) used as for some organic reactions. BTW, the > > reactions with oxygen and sulphur are very slow, which is why mercury > > vapour is, well, mercury vapour (rather than mercury oxide); and why > > the advice that used to be given to use flowers of sulphur (finely > > powdered sulphur) to mop up mercury spills is not very good (use zinc > > powder instead, to make a non-volatile amalgam). > > > > Some of the compounds are very toxic, and some can react with organic > > materials to produce organo-mercuric compounds (some list members are > > old enough to remember the Japanese fishermen who were poisoned by > > consuming them in fish over a long period). Lots of these are liquids > > with high toxic vapours. > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 8 10:40:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: <1094639122.7420.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Is there a > > termination issue? As far as I can tell both sides of the chain are > > terminated. The drive is hooked up externally and I'm using an active > > terminator. The host adapter should be terminating internally. > > Hmm, do check that the drives don't have their own termination jumper > that's set - having the bus terminated twice at one end could cause all > sorts of problems (and in theory damage devices on the bus, although > I've never seen that happen in practice) The problem is I'm trying to get a system working with several different old MO drives (Maxoptix Tahiti 1, Pinnacle Micro REO-650/1300, Sony ). The Maxoptix is not even being recongized, and may well be dead dead dead. The Pinnacle is being recognized but I'm getting the errors mentioned. The Sony drive gets recognized OK and the system boots but then I get a bizarre message in the Adaptec BIOS that says it's not a disk drive(!) Well then what is it? It's a Macinstor drive (ugh, can't think...forgot who the manufacturer is). > > What generally causes the above errors? I'm getting it on multiple drives > > across multiple adapters. > > Are you certain the card(s) and driver(s) are set OK? Yes, as far as I can tell. I have two of the adapters and have used each without troubles before. > eg. under linux I can do: > > cat /proc/scsi/sg/host_strs > > and get: > > Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8 29160 Ultra160 SCSI adapter> aic7892: Ultra160 Wide Channel A, > SCSI Id=7, 32/253 SCBs > Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8 2940A Ultra SCSI adapter> aic7860: Ultra Single Channel A, SCSI > Id=7, 3/253 SCBs > > ... so I can tell that the system's talking to the two controllers I > have in this machine, regardless of the state of any connected devices. > > Maybe Adaptec have some DOS-based diags you can try by booting from a > floppy. The board is happy when the drives are NOT attached :) > I have no idea if the 1542 auto-terminates; it's probably too old - but > IME Adaptec's auto-termination sucks and I always set termination for > their boards via jumpers just to be on the safe side. The board's BIOS has an option to force termination but the setup says you should just leave it on automatic. So I won't trust it and will try again forcing termination on the board. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 10:45:51 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <008a01c494ef$e7bca110$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <10409072110.ZM17585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <007301c49568$023ce860$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> <10409080801.ZM18312@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <008601c495ba$ebb85b80$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> ok I will give it a try!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > On Sep 7 2004, 22:52, ed sharpe wrote: > > Pete: are we going to actually spin this drive up after bereakeing > the seal > > on it? I thought bad things would happen....... ed > > Of course you're going to spin it up. Drives are surprisingly tough. > I've run drives with the cover off several times. To avoid a head > crash, avoid dust. If you think the air might be dusty, disable the > head movement and let it spin for a while to move any remaining dust > out of the way -- winchesters have a small internal filter which > filters the air as it is dragged round by the platters. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 8 11:07:10 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:48:59 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: <006c01c495b9$b0388900$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> References: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <005201c495b7$88175200$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> <006c01c495b9$b0388900$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <413F2E2E.4020307@srv.net> ed sharpe wrote: >should have said in the previous message.....absinth ( had worm wood in it >goggle this for more info). > > goggle? Wouldn't eyeglasses work better? From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Sep 8 10:54:11 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) In-Reply-To: <011801c49548$4d23eb00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> (Jay West's message of "Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:05:23 -0500") References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> <200409080149.i881nVbP033966@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <011801c49548$4d23eb00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200409081554.i88FsCr6038821@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jay West wrote: > THAT'S what I should have been doing, getting a maintenance contract. Ok, > I'm off to call HP's customer care line, and get set up on a maintenance > contract for two 2100's, 2748, 7900, 7970, etc. Cool! Sure will save me a > bundle in buying old parts on ebay! *GRIN* Of course, what I was really trying to point out was, Bob's problem is classic computing as it really was 20 years ago when you could actually get a maintenance contract. There's three things I can think of that go wrong with 7970s: (1) the hub release tabs break (2) the heads wear (3) the lamps burn out We had 7970Es in several-times-daily use, for reading and writing data transfer tapes and for backups. For each drive in that sort of use, about every 18 months we'd start having excessive trouble reading and/or writing tapes, and this would turn out to be due to having worn the heads down. First time the CEs would be able to readjust the drive electronics to work with the somewhat worn head, the second time they would have to replace the head. Lather, rinse, repeat until 1600 BPI nine-track is no longer the preferred medium. And the lamps burn out. HP eventually did a field upgrade that replaced the lamp panel with an LED panel. Apparently this was cost-effective for HP in that it meant not having to spend CE time on replacing burned-out lamps. But I note some 7970s escaped the upgrade and still have lamp panels. -Frank McConnell From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 8 08:27:57 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <00e601c49546$ffeb0c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00e601c49546$ffeb0c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908081205.059dec00@pc> At 08:56 PM 9/7/2004, Jay West wrote: >Let me speak from my past history of owning software and manual copyrights. >My argument does not center around law though, that's separate topic for >which I hire lawyers. This is more of an owners view into when he decides to >set loose the sharks.... A well-reasoned response! I agree that open sales at a fixed price will always be a trigger that inflames a copyright-holder, although of course, the trigger can be much less - as in peer- to-peer redistribution of music. However, the genie is out of the bottle the moment the docs are posted on a give-away web site. How can you stop anyone in the world who decides they want to harvest web sites and assemble a convenient collection on CD/DVD/hard disk, then sell it on eBay? It's easy to imagine that a zealous or well-funded copyright holder would add the web site owner's name to the lawsuit. There are gobs of these sorts of discs on eBay... all the "secret" and "unknown" documents that someone grabbed from web sites. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 8 11:05:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: <001701c49567$5b6f2fc0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> References: <200409072153.OAA20870@clulw009.amd.com> <20040908025915.KEIW14082.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wicked-fast> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040908120508.0092db00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:47 PM 9/7/04 -0700, you wrote: >in the old days they used to give murcury rubs for syphlis! Did they use metallic mercury or a mercury salt? Mercuric oxide used to be used as an eye ointment. I remember using it as a kid. It was very effective. Joe > >ed >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 4:03 PM >Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > > >> > > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. >> > >> > This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been >pretty >> > reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a >show. >> > Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru >the >> > body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely >> > used as an antibiotic, as well. >> > >> > The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty >> > quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short >> > periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold >thru >> > amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) >tend >> > to have very short lives if they are not careful. >> >> Compounds in mercury? Such as? >> >> In old days before "safer" plating base metals with other metals was >> developed, like 140 years or more years ago, they used that same way >> to "gild" the stuff with gold or silver via the mercury amalgamation. >> >> Whew that must be very miserable lifetime back then as gilders. :-( >> >> Cheers, >> >> Wizard >> >> > >> > William Donzelli >> >> > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 8 11:22:20 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <0609e7ea4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:34 PM 9/7/04 +0100, you wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > > >> Oh Yeah! The back porch (roofless) was still stacked full of Intel >> MDS-2xxs and the front was stacked full of DEC stuff. It all got soaked but >> none blew away. The house was FULL and no room for these big items. > >Clean 'em with distilled water, Nature already took care of that part! then leave to dry for a few days - good as >new :) I hope so. Actaully a lot of the stuff that I get has already been out in the rain before I get them. (It rains nearly everyday here in the summer and we has heavy dew most mornings thanks to 90+ percent humidity levels.) I've found that rain usually doesn't hurt anything. What hurts it is staying wet (full of water or laying on the ground), >If you really feel pessimistic, get a toothbrush and clean every single >component with 90% isopropanol :) >OTOH, if you feel brave, pull the boards and run them through a dishwasher. I'd already pulled the most usefull boards and stored them inside. The remainder of the boards, CRTs, PSUs MIGHT eventually be usefull but I should already have all the parts that I'll ever need. I currently have eight fully operable MDS-800, two operable and one non-op MDS-2xxs and lots of spare parts. I don't really have the room to store the remaining chassis. That's why they're sitting outside. Joe >Can't remember what settings to use, but it supposedly works wonders as long >as you don't mind having a few labels ripped off the board here and there >(and a few electrolytics might break off if you're real unlucky). > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >.... Neither Borrower Or Lender Be; routinely ignored by Congress. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 8 11:28:15 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) In-Reply-To: <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040908122815.00974940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bob, I have some 7970 drives but no spare parts. I can loan you a hub but you'll need to replace it sooner or later (or just make a deal for the entire drive(s)). Joe At 07:08 PM 9/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >I urgently need a part to repair an HP tape drive. > >What I'm looking for is the hub release mechanisim from a HP 7970 A, B, >C, or E drive. This same >part may also be used on other HP tape drives as well. The same >mechanisim is used for both the >supply and take-up reels. > >If you have a parts machine HP tape drive, please contact me ASAP. > >To remove this part from a drive, lift the tape reel unlocking tab on >the front of the hub. >You will see a small phillips head screw, remove this screw (it does not >need to be fully >unscrewed, but you might as well...). > >With the locking screw removed, unscrew (counter-clockwise) the release >mechanisim from the >hub while preventing the hub from turning (simple finger pressure should >do). > >How I broke my release mechanisim.... > >I had a reel of tape with a rather sticky write-enable ring mounted, and >it stuck to the hub. Even >with the release tab lifted I was unable to get this reel of tape off >the hub. I managed to free the >offending reel of tape, but in the process the release tab got whacked, >and the cams under the >tab cracked and split. > >The major pain of this is, I need to cut a bootable tape, and now I >cannot even mount a reel. > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 8 11:32:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) In-Reply-To: <00a201c4953e$99a27b90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040908123214.0098d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A local place scrapped a bunch of 7970s about a year ago. I rescued 6 or 7 intact ones. I went back later hoping to find some hubs for Jay but they were all gone so all I have are the complete drives. I don't remember the exact model but Jay probably remembers, they were the model that he was looking for last year. Joe At 07:55 PM 9/7/04 -0500, you wrote: >Joe R. said that he had some in response to a query I posted some time ago. >He never found them I guess. I'm still looking for a couple, exact same part >as you are. Then again, I'm sure he's got his hands full these days. If you >find a source for these Bob, please let me know! > >Jay > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 8 11:42:44 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso Message-ID: <200409081642.JAA21648@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ed sharpe" > >"Pure >mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may >explain something about some artists)". > >Yes... other pigments got them too! but in the case of old 'one ear >Vincent you also can mix in syphilis and also drinking absinth ( had word >wood in it goggle this for more info). > >the painters life was full of toxins and infection! Hi Also lead for whites and cadmium for yellows. I'm sure the list goes on. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 8 11:51:28 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <200409080136.SAA21088@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040908125128.00967290@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:36 PM 9/7/04 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "William Donzelli" >> >>> I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. >> >>This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been pretty >>reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a show. >> >>> Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or >>> most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). >>> It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure >>> to vapor. >> >>Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes thru the >>body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is rarely >>used as an antibiotic, as well. >> >>The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty >>quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short >>periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold thru >>amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) tend >>to have very short lives if they are not careful. > >Hi > People that made hats used to use mercury ( I don't know what for ) That was back when they made beaver hats. I think the mercury was used for tanning/treating the beaver hides. I used to live in California (yes, me in the People's Republic!) A few friends and I dabbled around with searching for gold and I did some research and found that the old time gold miners use to crush their gold ore and mix it with mercury. The mercury and gold would form a semi-liquid amalgam that they would squeeze out by use of a cheese cloth. They then hollowed out a potato and placed the amalgam in it and placed it in the embers of their camp fire. The heat would evaporate the mercury and leave pure gold. You can imagine the amount of mercury vapor it released!!! However even the 49ers were aware of the dangers of mercury vapor, they noted that they were carefull leave the area for at least several days after they put the potato in the fire. BTW years ago I remember reading a National Geographic article about a several hundred year old Spanish ship that they had found off the coast of Florida. This ship was on it's way to the New World when it sank so there was no gold or silver aboard. However it was carrying a LARGE load of mercury to be used for gold refining (something like 20-30 tons as as I recall). The pictures with the article showed huge puddles of liquid mercury on the sea floor even after all this time. IIRC the finders were going to try and salvage the mercury since it still had significant value. Also IIRC the article said that the lose of the ship was a huge fincail lose to Spain at the time due to the huge quantity of mercury aboard and it's cost. Joe >but that is where the term "Mad as a Hatter" came from. The vapor >was known to cause mental problems as well as other physical problems. > Maybe it is already too late for Sellam. Remember his Altar comment. >A sure sign he is missing some marbles. > I used to handle the stuff a lot when I was a kid and it hasn't >hardly effected me ( has it? ). It nevir affecttted meeee (twitch, twitch). :-) jOe >Dwight > > >> >>William Donzelli >>aw288@osfn.org >> >> >> > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 8 12:02:55 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing the responses well in advance of the original messages. Why would the list software do that? - John From dmabry at mich.com Wed Sep 8 12:07:25 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> Joe R. wrote: snip > > I'd already pulled the most usefull boards and stored them inside. The > remainder of the boards, CRTs, PSUs MIGHT eventually be usefull but I > should already have all the parts that I'll ever need. I currently have > eight fully operable MDS-800, two operable and one non-op MDS-2xxs and lots > of spare parts. I don't really have the room to store the remaining > chassis. That's why they're sitting outside. > > Joe > > EIGHT!!!! Damn, you are a hoarder! I can store one of those in a dry environment for you. ;) -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 8 12:15:59 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Econet for an RML380Z? In-Reply-To: <26c11a64040908075841fde839@mail.gmail.com> References: <1094469065.4415.48.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64040908075841fde839@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1094663759.7813.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 15:58 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > I've just got a 380z chain network server. Without keyboard alas. The > tv and monitor cables are not connected to anything. There is a cable > but I can't see where it goes. Dp you have one of these you can have a > look for me. I think someone might of taken out one of the boards. Is that the one that was on EBay a few days ago? (In which case I'm glad it went to a recognised collector!) I'll assume for the mo that it is... I've got a CHAIN network server identical to that EBay one, except that mine has a Winchester disk controller in it (actually a SASI controller) and a seperate Winchester cabinet containing a drive and a SASI-ST506 bridge board. I contacted the EBay seller for the one that was on EBay the other day, and he swore that it never had a fixed disk, so you're stuck with the capacity of the 380Z's floppies for shared storage I'm afraid! As for keyboard and monitor, it doesn't use one. My system's the same regarding the disconnected video cables inside. All the network code's in ROM on the server; enough to allow clients to connect assuming that you have a bootable disk in the floppy drive anyway. For maintenance mode, what you do is as follows (from the Network Release 2.0 Design and Istallation Manual): Hook a regular 480Z (possibly 380Z, but the docs I've seen only mention 480Z stations) up via the serial line to SIO-4 on the back of the 380Z server. Turn on the server and the 480Z, then hit T on the 480Z to drop into terminal mode. (I can't see a reason why this can't be any old terminal) At this point, insert the network maintenance disk into the 380Z's drive A (left hand or top drive, depending on drive orientation). Go on, suprise me and tell me you got one of those! :-) Hit reset on the fileserver, and it should boot from the maintenance disk and give you a command prompt in the 480Z's terminal emulator. Now, originally the fileserver came with three floppies - the network server disk, working server disk, and network maintenance disk. The working server disk is used for a running network and gives you mail, BASIC, printer sharing, display network status etc. - with the network server disk essentially being a master copy of this. The maintenance disk contains utilities to format a floppy, set file flags, delete files, reset the server etc. The critical file on all three disks is MPM.SYS; that's the server OS and I think your system's something of a boat anchor if you don't have it :-( We need to give Paul Williams a prod as I believe he has a copy of the three floppies needed (at least for a floppy-based server; I'm still out of luck with the hard disk side of things) - we coupld probably both do with copies of those :-) hope that helps a little anyway. At some point I'll make an effort to scan the manuals I've got and that Paul doesn't have. > Which says : > Yep. We had 4 bbc model A's at that time, complete with those > little cream tape recorders, while the 380Z had twin floppies. > There was a small network filesystem on cassette the beebs had to > load after power-on, then they connected via rs-232 to a couple > of pins on the *parallel* port of the 380Z. I can't remember > exactly (this was 1984 and I was half the age I am now!) but I > think you could still use the 380Z normally. Ta for that - that actually further seems to imply that the Econet board for the 380Z may well have been vapourware! cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 8 12:19:46 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> Message-ID: <1094663986.7813.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 12:02 -0500, John Foust wrote: > I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing > the responses well in advance of the original messages. > Why would the list software do that? Same here, just in the last few days though. Didn't Jay mention a disk crash a week or so ago? Maybe things are just clogged trying to catch up since then and it'll all gradually sort itself out. cheers, Jules From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Wed Sep 8 12:14:43 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: CD Shredder In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040902131444.04b7f4f8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040902073804.024986f8@192.168.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20040902131444.04b7f4f8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040908171443.GA25904@jdboyd.zill.net> On Thu, Sep 02, 2004 at 01:25:51PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > One is still putting metallic objects into a nuker, which in practice is > bad, but putting metallic objects into a nuker with absolutely no place to > go (re: just the CD) is worse. (and yes, just because *your* nuker may > survive this, doesn't mean *everybody's* nuker may survive!) Darn. This whole thread is making me wish I had thought to stick a CD in my old nuker before tossing the nuker in the dumpster. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 8 12:30:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? Message-ID: <200409081730.KAA21696@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 12:02 -0500, John Foust wrote: >> I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing >> the responses well in advance of the original messages. >> Why would the list software do that? > >Same here, just in the last few days though. Didn't Jay mention a disk >crash a week or so ago? Maybe things are just clogged trying to catch up >since then and it'll all gradually sort itself out. > >cheers, > >Jules > > Hi There are all kinds of variable delays in messages on the web. Even though, one message might go the fast way, another might take a more roundabout method. There is any number of reasons that they might arrive out of order is they were sent close in time. Dwight From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Sep 8 03:16:14 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit whatsoever In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:26:28 BST." <10409072326.ZM17768@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200409080816.JAA31593@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Pete Turnbull said: > The usual method of filtering mercury is to use a small folded filter > paper, with a very small hole torn in the point of the cone. The > mercury will run through the small hole, but most of the rubbish, which > floats on the top, will stay behind. You usually need to do this a > couple of times. I just rang my brother, who used to use mercury a lot when assaying metal ores, and that's what they used to do to clean up the mercury after use. They used to run it through concentrated hydrochloric acid first to dissolve any ore residue. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Sep 8 03:33:04 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 2004 00:36:50 EDT." <5.1.0.14.2.20040908001531.04e6cfc8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200409080833.JAA31729@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Roger Merchberger said: > My grandfather said rather emphatically - "I've used my teeth on lead > sinkers my whole life, and have been soldering just as long - it's *never* > affected me! I'm still an intelligent individual in command of my faculties!" > > I replied: "I'm not doubting you're a smart guy. But how do you know the > lead didn't affect you? Without that lead in your system you might have > been twice as smart as you are now." > > That pretty much ended the heated part of the discussion. I've been soldering for the past 48 years or so and I've done a *lot* of shooting and bullet casting, so my exposure to metallic lead has been very high. Beacuse I was taken ill a few years ago with something that could be, remotely, explained by heavy metal poisening I was thouroughly tested for lead. My lead levels are right in the middle of the expected levels for someone living in an urban environment, so my uptake of lead from my activities must have been minimal. The trouble is my brain works 100% normally and about 50% when I get tired, and not at all before my first cup of coffee in the morning :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 8 12:36:43 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: survived another one! Message-ID: <200409081736.KAA21703@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Mabry" > >Joe R. wrote: > >snip > > >> >> I'd already pulled the most usefull boards and stored them inside. The >> remainder of the boards, CRTs, PSUs MIGHT eventually be usefull but I >> should already have all the parts that I'll ever need. I currently have >> eight fully operable MDS-800, two operable and one non-op MDS-2xxs and lots >> of spare parts. I don't really have the room to store the remaining >> chassis. That's why they're sitting outside. >> >> Joe >> >> > >EIGHT!!!! Damn, you are a hoarder! I can store one of those in a dry >environment for you. ;) Hi Now be nice Dave. You know you might need one of those boards some day. Joe is a great resources. Dwight From paul at frixxon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 12:40:41 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> Message-ID: <413F4419.3000307@frixxon.co.uk> John Foust wrote: > I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing > the responses well in advance of the original messages. > Why would the list software do that? There are two (related) reasons that I know of, neither of which should affect more than a small percentage of posts: 1. Alice sends a message to the list. Bob sends a reply, which goes to the list *and* Alice, for reasons we've discussed before. However, Bob doesn't post his reply from the address he subscribed to the list with, so it gets held for moderation. Before moderation happens, Alice replies to Bob's message (having received a copy directly), and this goes straight to the list. For a recent example of this, see the Econet thread, where Jules plays Alice and Dan guest stars as Bob. 2. Some people never post from the address they subscribed with! Their postings get held for moderation on cctalk and cctech. cctech is moderated more regularly than cctalk, because I expect cctalk's "held list" to mostly contain spam, which only needs clearing irregularly. Any cctech subscriber who replies to a posting will have their post distributed to both list views, possibly before the original post has come through on cctalk. Still with me? OK, the root problem here is people posting from addresses different from those they subscribed with. The number of people doing this has increased over the past year. Perhaps they are unaware that they are doing it, so when I see subscribers' postings being held on cctalk, I'll send out a reminder, in case they would like to subscribe from their new address instead. -- Paul From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Wed Sep 8 12:53:39 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> Message-ID: <20040908175339.GB25904@jdboyd.zill.net> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 01:59:21PM -0500, John Foust wrote: > > I appreciate all the offers to host these files. > > I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to > augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. Well, there are certainly plenty of ways to go from bitmaps to PDFs of bitmaps, like the old MIT AI Memo PDFs were done. A few years ago I tried to OCR some DEC manuals, but I wasn't happy with the results I got at all. One program didn't work very well, and the other only wanted to spit out plain text without keeping for formatting or diagrams. They were both commercial programs. At this point, I almost have hope that some of the current free software programs might be able to do better. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 8 13:54:26 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> <20040908175339.GB25904@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <16703.21858.699722.538660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Boyd writes: Joshua> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 01:59:21PM -0500, John Foust wrote: >> I appreciate all the offers to host these files. >> >> I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to >> augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. Joshua> Well, there are certainly plenty of ways to go from bitmaps Joshua> to PDFs of bitmaps, like the old MIT AI Memo PDFs were done. Joshua> A few years ago I tried to OCR some DEC manuals, but I wasn't Joshua> happy with the results I got at all. One program didn't work Joshua> very well, and the other only wanted to spit out plain text Joshua> without keeping for formatting or diagrams. They were both Joshua> commercial programs. I have had good success with Adobe's OCR plugin for Acrobat -- free for the download with a 50 page at a time limit. (It will do bigger docs, in 50 page pieces.) It worked well enough to produce useful output from a manual full of pictures (a flight manual). paul From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Sep 8 15:21:46 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser Wrote > You are a sick person Sellam. I see you have already > had a good swig of that Hg. > > Just wait until the t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-t-tremours start. > I think he has the mad hatter syndrome. Reference From http://www.hgtech.com/Information/Mad%20Hatter.htm /begin reference Hatters really did go mad. The chemicals used in hat-making included mercurous nitrate, used in curing felt. Prolonged exposure to the mercury vapors caused mercury poisoning. Victims developed severe and uncontrollable muscular tremors and twitching limbs, called "hatter's shakes"; other symptoms included distorted vision and confused speech. Advanced cases developed hallucinations and other psychotic symptoms. The popular top hat of the time were made from beaver fur, but cheaper ones used furs such as rabbit instead. A complicated set of processes was needed to turn the fur into a finished hat. With the cheaper sorts of fur, one step was to brush a solution of mercurous nitrate on to the fur to roughen the fibres and make them mat more easily, a process called carroting because it made the fur turn orange. Beaver fur had natural serrated edges that made this unnecessary, one reason why it was preferred, but the cost and scarcity of beaver meant that other furs had to be used. Whatever the source of the fur, the fibres were then shaved off the skin and turned into felt; this was later immersed in a boiling acid solution to thicken and harden it. The acid treatment decomposed the mercurous nitrate to elemental mercury. Finishing processes included steaming the hat to shape and ironing it. In all these steps, hatters working in poorly ventilated workshops would breathe in mercury vapor. /end reference Haven't we all heard about putting on your thinking hat to solve a problem. Aren't computers just big problem solvers, so by induction a thinking hat is just a computer. Personally I hope my wife thinks I'm just "eccentric", not mad. I tell her it's better that I collect computers instead of wild women, drugs, gambling, cars, guns, horses, and speeding tickets. Mike From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 8 15:50:06 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever In-Reply-To: <10409080841.ZM18331@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > That's because of *chronic* exposure. The risk from a single small > dose is not very high (though obviously it depends on the dose); Those poor South Americans sometimes received quite a bit more than a small dose! I suppose it is all relative - you sitting in a room with an exposed cup of mercury for an hour isn't too bad at all, but you sitting in a room with an exposed cup of mercury boiling away on a hot plate is bad news. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kevintct at streamyx.com Mon Sep 6 16:25:01 2004 From: kevintct at streamyx.com (Kevin Teoh) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Runout vs. Flatness and Dial test indicators Message-ID: <000601c49457$fe78ed20$f6a0fea9@kevinhome> just would like to enquire.. Is the DTI reading for run-out the difference between the high and low limits or is it the average of the difference From phirkel at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 6 22:09:44 2004 From: phirkel at sympatico.ca (Philippe Vachon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: TQK70 configuration Message-ID: <5E6407C6-007B-11D9-9649-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Hello (again!). I'm very pleased with my VAX 4000/300 thus far, but I'm about to get a KZQSA card from someone, and I need to move my TQK70 controller over on the Q-bus so that the KZQSA card can fit into the machine. However, when I did a test run of this, the card was responding (show dev showed the card), but it wouldn't find the TK70 tape drive attached to the TQK70. Is there a jumper I have to set? Or did I screw up in some other way? Thanks. Phil. From KParker at workcover.com Tue Sep 7 01:11:16 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: xenix Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7B2E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> No but he might have it. I'm up to my elbows with our new web site at the moment. Once done I'll have a hunt - I'll recognise it if I see it. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Tuesday, 7 September 2004 7:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: xenix On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Do a hunt on the net - I downloaded some disc images about 2 or 3 years > ago for XENIX for the TRS80 Model 12 or Model 16B - the site had heaps > of OS's for old machines (might ring a bell with someone) That sounds like Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site: http://www.trs-80.com/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From Thilo.Schmidt at gmx.de Tue Sep 7 03:22:55 2004 From: Thilo.Schmidt at gmx.de (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Fraud offer from GB, How to deal with it? References: <200409062335.08683.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <27634.1094545375@www35.gmx.net> > On Monday 06 September 2004 23:19, Teo Zenios wrote: > Yeah, but he has no *proof* that the guy is trying to be fraudulent, and > considering it's crossing international boundaries, the local cops > probably aren't going to be able/willing to do much. If you get the > guy to send you a bad check, you've got some proof that something's up. > > Anyways, who doesn't like to be a little "reckless". This guy sounds > more like a scammer, it's not quite the same as screwing with your > local drug dealer/mob boss. :) I missed the first few mails on this subject so I don't know if this site has already been mentioned: http://69.93.112.102/~pbook/ ;-) bye Thilo -- Supergünstige DSL-Tarife + WLAN-Router für 0,- EUR* Jetzt zu GMX wechseln und sparen http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From juanfri52 at hotmail.com Tue Sep 7 12:23:00 2004 From: juanfri52 at hotmail.com (Juan Fernando) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Teledisk software to duplicate license floppy disk Message-ID: Desearia saber si el teledisk puede copiar diskettes de instalacion, si fuera asi estaria interesado en adquirir el programa. Un saludo: Fernando From dghof at home.nl Tue Sep 7 13:24:42 2004 From: dghof at home.nl (Dick Gerrit Hof) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Intel IPDS100 problem Message-ID: <000001c49507$f1926770$0a02a8c0@CC689209A> Hello, Joe My name is Dick hof I am From Holland I have a Little problem Lets say big problem. Its about the intel IPDS100 also named as Intel Personal Development System. The problem is that I don`t get it running any way I have a lot of programs That I want to have in a eprom but It doesn`t work My question to you is it possible to get the programs from the DS/DD disks 5" to a 3,5" disk Any way I hope so that maybe you have a solution for my problem. My regards Dick Hof. From willcampagna at juno.com Tue Sep 7 16:48:21 2004 From: willcampagna at juno.com (Will Campagna) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Epson parts Message-ID: <20040907.174821.856.0.willcampagna@juno.com> I am trying to locate a source for a Memory Expansion Board and ram chip sets for the Epson Action Laser II laser printer. Thanks for your help. Will Campagna From mbg at theworld.com Tue Sep 7 16:57:47 2004 From: mbg at theworld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> Message-ID: <200409072157.RAA6100031@shell.TheWorld.com> >> BA11-M (11/03) DEC/PDP logo in glorious DEC maroon: >> http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg >That doesn't look original to me. It is... but a later version of the panel. You can tell by the inset screws at the ends of the panel. I also have one in storage at the moment... >> http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-23/11-23-front-panel.jpg >That's simply the result of a colour cast in a badly lit/badly exposed >photo, probably taken under tungsten lighting. It looks just like mine >except for the cast; mine is plain DEC grey with a black and white >sticker. This looks like several I saw at DEC, and I think I have one myself. It is a sticker on a flat panel, not embossed one. >> http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/1123PLUS.JPG >Where's the colour in that? It's a standard 11T23 system, identical to >the one in the next room to me -- and I can assure you that the only >colour is the yellow and red on the RL02 lamps. >I think someone has adulterated it. I'm sure that's not original. It is, sorry... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikes at m5systems.net Tue Sep 7 23:14:38 2004 From: mikes at m5systems.net (Michael Seidner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: SCO Open Desktop 1.0.1 stuff available Message-ID: <52618CB953F7EF4AB5099A26AC27F91B03BFBF@server1.mdscomp.local> Are these items still available?? Thanks Michael Seidner M5 Systems 602-288-8304 http://www.m5systems.net From waisun.chia at hp.com Tue Sep 7 23:39:52 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Who is "sysman-inc" in eBay? In-Reply-To: <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> Message-ID: <413E8D18.5000105@hp.com> Anybody know just who is sysman-inc on eBay? He seems to snapping up alot of PDP parts at pretty high prices.. Leaving none for us poor hobbyist... :-{ I guess he is a purchaser at a part dealer? /wai-sun From sab at freemail.ru Wed Sep 8 05:18:56 2004 From: sab at freemail.ru (sab@freemail.ru) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: "Error: sysboot not found" Message-ID: <413EDC90.0212BC.04428@e-post01.e-se.ru> Hello, Aro Hirohi I found your message releted to sysboot problems at Apollo DN5500 . here it is ____________________________ I am trying to salvage a nice Apollo DN5500 server. Unfortunately I had to swap the original Maxtor ESDI 760 HD - it makes a clunky noise - for a lower capacity Micropolis and I have some difficulties to reinstall DomainOS software. The system starts under service mode. It can read a bootable tape and install the mini DomainOS software but it cannot boot DomainOS directly from the hard disk ... it dies with an "Error: sysboot not found" What I've done ... in service mode, with a 10.3.4 boot tape inserted, > re > di c > ex config, ex calendar, ex invol ... to enter the new hd configuration, setup date/time and format hd then ... > ex domain_os ... does a lot of shoeshinning, copy base OS from tape to hd and says that sysboot is found and skipped ... ) go ... goes to HP logo and login or ) sh runs a text shell ... I was delighted ... but now if I shutdown and reboot the system in normal mode, it passes the tests ok but fails to start the base OS complaining about "sysboot not found". Same result in service mode if I do a > re and > ex domain_os. Considering that it boots fine from a tape, I assume that the sysboot is not a eprom program and that it has been erased by formatting the drive. Does anybody know how to install the sysboot. Does it have anything to do with the 40KB file copied from the tape to //nodeXXX/sysboot on the hard disk? Kind regards, Aro http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-December/023001.html ______________________________ I have the same problems now. Did you solved your ones ? If yes - may i ask you how you did it ??? Thank you. Al. From Lvchld1979 at aol.com Wed Sep 8 11:34:21 2004 From: Lvchld1979 at aol.com (Lvchld1979@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: ibm aptiva for parts Message-ID: <3A6BB872.69E9D1AB.0C2D590B@aol.com> how much for the power supply? From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 8 16:49:03 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions Message-ID: <56817.67.36.83.25.1094680143.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Hello all, new guy here, first post, help? I saw some info about some DEC SCSI enclosures, probably RAID boxes, holding 7 drives each, with power supply and "personality module." There wasn't enough info in the post I saw to get me going. I wonder if anyone might consider attempting answering a question or two for me, as I have a pair of these myself. They are marked MODEL SHDA2-ZZ on the back, and have 7 empty drive containers each. The fan modules say BA35X-MD 2x which makes me suspect that I have a pair of DEC Storageworks BA356 enclosures. They are gray in color. They each have a personality module, apparently both BA35X-MH. What do the switches do? The personality module with the sticker on it that says SHELF 2 does NOT have the switches set according to the decal on the module-- they are all off, whereas on the decal, one is advised to turn switches 1-3 on and leave 4-7 off. The module from the other unit is marked SHELF 1 and is in fact set the way the decal advises. Are these personality modules in fact RAID controllers? Are they meant to provide logical unit control, so that the enclosure looks like one SCSI ID to the outside world, with logical units on it? Or do the SCSI ID numbers assigned by the enclosure get passed through to the SCSI connector? Is there any software out there to configure these units as to what flavor of RAID to use? E.g. for Windows XP or Red Hat Linux? Many thanks in advance if you can help or point me in the right direction. -Tom From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 8 17:10:31 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Interactive displays was Re: Cool book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094681430.8042.67.camel@dhcp-250019> On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 00:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... > > > > we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas > > folks? Make them sort spilled card decks. Re-spool dropped paper tape. Vacuum chad out of the carpeting. Load the FORTRAN compiler tape into core at 110 baud. More seriously, maybe a 'toggle the bootstrap' speed contest for nerdly kids. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 8 17:13:46 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1094681625.8042.71.camel@dhcp-250019> How about, 'type you name here' and it spits out paper tape with it punched as text? (I have C code for this). Paper tape is cheap even today, as you'd only need a foot or two per visitor. (And if the tape had their name also coded as machine-readable, you could use it as a 'ticket' for other displays or activities...) Cards would work, but are more cumbersome to make just one, and tape readers can be nice and little and non-threatening (and harder to harm). From gksloane at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 16:47:14 2004 From: gksloane at hotmail.com (Gary Sloane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: hi - re: HP1000/2000 Message-ID: Got any interesting stuff you might wanna trade for an HP1000/F (2117)? Or a 7905 disc drive? Gary From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 8 17:29:54 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094682594.5953.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 08:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The problem is I'm trying to get a system working with several different > old MO drives (Maxoptix Tahiti 1, Pinnacle Micro REO-650/1300, Sony > ). The Maxoptix is not even being recongized, and may > well be dead dead dead. The Pinnacle is being recognized but I'm getting > the errors mentioned. The Sony drive gets recognized OK and the system > boots but then I get a bizarre message in the Adaptec BIOS that says it's > not a disk drive(!) Well then what is it? It's a Macinstor drive (ugh, > can't think...forgot who the manufacturer is). ARG! I played with all of these (and continually cursed the day I first had to deal with them) while I was developing SCSI stuff at IBM. When I delt with the Tahiti-1 it had continuous microcode updates and the optical cartidges were not compatible with anyone else's. The major problems with these drives is that they reported honestly what they were (r/w optical drives). However, all of the PC code (BIOS, DOS, etc) thought optical drives were CD-ROMs and were utterly confused by anything that wasn't (especially 512 byte sector optical drives...and ones that didn't have the RO bit set). More reasonable OS's (aka UN*X) handled these beasts a bit better but the drives themselves were *always* a headache. As someone previously mentioned, ISA DMA is fiddly at best. Go do this on a PCI machine. You probably also want to make sure that the SCSI HBA is configured for single ended and 5MB/sec or lower (ie async). These SCSI interfaces on these drives are old and they will probably get very confused with the more modern auto-config stuff. -- TTFN - Guy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 8 17:32:19 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions In-Reply-To: <56817.67.36.83.25.1094680143.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Peters > Sent: 08 September 2004 22:49 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions > > drive containers each. The fan modules say BA35X-MD 2x which > makes me suspect that I have a pair of DEC Storageworks BA356 > enclosures. They are gray in color. > > They each have a personality module, apparently both BA35X-MH. 16bit personality modules for wide-SCSI drives - the 8bit version was BA35X-MG. This means you should have 2 68 pin plugs on there; make sure you use the one down the side of the module rather than on the end. The end one was for cascading. > What do the switches do? The personality module with the > sticker on it that says SHELF 2 does NOT have the switches > set according to the decal on the module-- they are all off, > whereas on the decal, one is advised to turn switches 1-3 on > and leave 4-7 off. I never had to change the switches on those; typically they were left unless you were cascading shelves. I can check some -MH modules in the office tomorrow if you're still stuck then. > The module from the other unit is marked SHELF 1 and is in > fact set the way the decal advises. You've got a cascaded pair there then. > Are these personality modules in fact RAID controllers? Nope, purely personality modules to support 16bit disks. > Or do the SCSI ID numbers assigned by the enclosure get > passed through to the SCSI connector? Correct; the SCSI ID is based on shelf number and which port on the host machine you're plugged into. > Is there any software out there to configure these units as > to what flavor of RAID to use? E.g. for Windows XP or Red Hat Linux? No need - it's all hardware based - plug disks into shelf, plug shelf into host machine and use disks :) Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From evan947 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 17:34:30 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: TV alert -- more info Message-ID: <20040908223430.68492.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 8 17:56:47 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: Megan "Re: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo" (Sep 7, 17:57) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <200409072157.RAA6100031@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <10409082356.ZM19027@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 7 2004, 17:57, Megan wrote: > >> BA11-M (11/03) DEC/PDP logo in glorious DEC maroon: > >> http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg > > >That doesn't look original to me. > > It is... but a later version of the panel. You can tell by > the inset screws at the ends of the panel. I also have one > in storage at the moment... I stand corrected :-) I've only seen one of those panels with the screws before, and it was plain grey. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 8 18:14:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Vintage hardware in Los Alamos NM In-Reply-To: <1094537636.19461.50.camel@fiche.wps.comm> Message-ID: >>> > What's the web site? >>> >>> Website? >>> You know... Main Entry: Web site Function: noun : a group of World Wide Web pages usually containing hyperlinks to each other and made available online by an individual, company, educational institution, government, or organization From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 8 18:02:18 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: Tom Jennings "Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays...." (Sep 8, 15:13) References: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <1094551718.5833.15.camel@weka.localdomain> <1094681625.8042.71.camel@dhcp-250019> Message-ID: <10409090002.ZM19037@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 8 2004, 15:13, Tom Jennings wrote: > How about, 'type you name here' and it spits out paper tape with it > punched as text? (I have C code for this). Paper tape is cheap even > today, as you'd only need a foot or two per visitor. I was going to add that but ran out of tinme, when I... > (And if the tape had their name also coded as machine-readable, you > could use it as a 'ticket' for other displays or activities...) ... wrote a short piece of PDP-8 assembler to do that on the ASR33 for my nieces. Several of the visitors who have seen my PDPs have asked for a bit of tape with something punched on it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 17:31:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <006b01c49567$fc9352a0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> from "ed sharpe" at Sep 7, 4 10:52:11 pm Message-ID: > > Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! > cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never need repair? > eventually break and need repair...... I have NO spares for 2100 > processors...... I've not seriously investigated my 2100A yet (too many machines, too little time...) but it looked to be mostly 74xxx and 74Sxxx TTL logic. If you've not got spares for those, well, you've got many more problems... -tony From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 18:27:36 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:00 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:02:55 -0500, John Foust wrote: > I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing > the responses well in advance of the original messages. > Why would the list software do that? > - John Because it's based on unix ? ;-) Stephane From mcesari at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 18:51:34 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Who is "sysman-inc" in eBay? In-Reply-To: <413E8D18.5000105@hp.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <16693.52658.658000.36328@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <415B73EA.199F16AF@compsys.to> <413E8D18.5000105@hp.com> Message-ID: <044AC5A5-01F2-11D9-8C1E-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Sep 7, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Anybody know just who is sysman-inc on eBay? > He seems to snapping up alot of PDP parts at pretty high prices.. > Leaving none for us poor hobbyist... :-{ > > I guess he is a purchaser at a part dealer? > > > /wai-sun > He's a hobbyist (and a friend of mine) with more money than most hobbyists. He uses his business name for all his internet dealings. He's got (at least) a PDP-8, an -8i, and an -8e plus some PDP-11's. Definitely a preservationist, but a private one. Mike From allain at panix.com Wed Sep 8 19:00:22 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: TV alert -- more info References: <20040908223430.68492.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <07bb01c49600$0cc01da0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/ Airing in the NYC area on WNET 13 9pm Tonight! John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 8 19:27:03 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Who is "sysman-inc" in eBay? In-Reply-To: <044AC5A5-01F2-11D9-8C1E-000A956B167C@comcast.net> from "Mike Cesari" at Sep 08, 2004 05:51:34 PM Message-ID: <200409090027.i890R4TS006913@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Sep 7, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > > Anybody know just who is sysman-inc on eBay? > > He seems to snapping up alot of PDP parts at pretty high prices.. > > Leaving none for us poor hobbyist... :-{ > > > > I guess he is a purchaser at a part dealer? > > > > > > /wai-sun > > > > He's a hobbyist (and a friend of mine) with more money than most > hobbyists. > He uses his business name for all his internet dealings. > He's got (at least) a PDP-8, an -8i, and an -8e plus some PDP-11's. > Definitely a preservationist, but a private one. > > Mike However, while he might be a hobbyist there are also several dealers that will bid quite high on anything that they consider "interesting" at which point the price is likely to go higher than most any hobbyist is willing to pay. Of course at least a couple of them lurk on this list as well. Zane From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Sep 8 19:32:49 2004 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B.Degnan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. 1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use this card? Is it PCI SCSI? A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some pictures http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ Thanks in advance. Bill Wilmington, Delaware vintagecomptuer.net From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Sep 8 19:46:01 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, B.Degnan wrote: > I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards > acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. > 1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating > specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use > this card? Is it PCI SCSI? > > A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some > pictures > http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill > Wilmington, Delaware > vintagecomptuer.net > > Looks like a STD bus A-D/D-A card to me... Peter Wallace From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 19:54:05 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908204656.034798f0@mail.earthlink.net> it isn't scsi. First of all it is a Pro-Log STD bus card. The card is an analog to digital and digital to analog convertor. The ad667 chips are 12 multiplying digital to analog convertors which gives you four analog outputs for the board. I couldn't make out the Burr-Brown part numbers, but I suspect that they are sample and hold amplifiers or analog switches that take eight analog inputs and presents them to the TSC800 chip which is a 15 bit analog to digital converter. Just a guess anyway... best regards, Steve Thatcher At 08:32 PM 09/08/2004, you wrote: >I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards >acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. >1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating >specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use >this card? Is it PCI SCSI? > >A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some >pictures >http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill >Wilmington, Delaware >vintagecomptuer.net > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 8 19:58:47 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? Message-ID: <200409090058.RAA22052@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "B.Degnan" > >I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards >acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. >1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating >specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use >this card? Is it PCI SCSI? > >A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some >pictures >http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill >Wilmington, Delaware >vintagecomptuer.net > > > Hi Bill Looking at the parts on the board, it is a multi channel A/D board. It looks like a Standard Bus but I think there should only be 50 pins. The TSC 800 is a dual slop A/D ( slow but very good resolution ). The AD667's are analog somethings by Analog Devices. They might be D/A's or analog swithces. It looks like there is a bunch of input amplifiers. This could be for anything from a simple A/D to a temperature measurement board. Anyway, it is definitely and analog interface board. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 8 19:43:00 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409090111.VAA21212@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP LaserJet IIISi? I have one. Yesterday, I turned it on, same as a zillion times before, and it didn't come up normally; it was making an odd ticking noise. I went to see what was up and smelled that unpleasant smell that usually means the magic smoke has been let out of something. I turned it off immediately and have been spending the last hour or so trying to figure out how to disassemble it to find out what's fried (and try to estimate how user-replaceable it may be). But it's being difficult, and my replacement capabilities tend to operate at a coarser FRU grain than, say, Tony's :-); service doc would help (even if only the kind Tony not entirely unjustly calls just a boardswapping guide - it'd still help with things like mechanical disassembly). Someone with experience with the things would help even more, of course, but I can't really expect to be that lucky. I'm still working on pulling it apart to find out what let out that unpleasant smell.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rcini at optonline.net Wed Sep 8 20:24:51 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Cromemco docs needed Message-ID: <000a01c4960b$cebe9660$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: I'm looking for a copy of the docs for the Cromemco Dazzler video board. If anyone has this, either paper or electronic, please let me know. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 8 20:39:13 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409090139.SAA22069@clulw009.amd.com> Hi der Mouse I have a IIIsi that I fiddle with every now and then. I also have an official service manual ( not much help for anything ). I suspect that they think that anyone working on one of these would be factory trained. Other than the occational cleaning and a problem with the last toner/drum assembly, mine works well. The only major failure I've had is the input card failed. ( a bummer since it was one of the harder to get parallel/serial cards and not the easy to get ethernet cards ). I've gotten some aftermarket RAM and put rediculously large amounts of RAM in it. It also has Postscript, a duplexer ( I got from ebay ) and an envelope feeder ( also from ebay ). Smoke is a bad sign. Good luck. Dwight PS While in the service, I had the nickname of "Mouse". It was because anytime anyone with gold braid on their cap would enter an area that I was in, I'd find a piece of equipment to hide behind. It was noted that I was like a mouse. Dwight >From: "der Mouse" > >Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP LaserJet >IIISi? I have one. Yesterday, I turned it on, same as a zillion times >before, and it didn't come up normally; it was making an odd ticking >noise. I went to see what was up and smelled that unpleasant smell >that usually means the magic smoke has been let out of something. I >turned it off immediately and have been spending the last hour or so >trying to figure out how to disassemble it to find out what's fried >(and try to estimate how user-replaceable it may be). > >But it's being difficult, and my replacement capabilities tend to >operate at a coarser FRU grain than, say, Tony's :-); service doc would >help (even if only the kind Tony not entirely unjustly calls just a >boardswapping guide - it'd still help with things like mechanical >disassembly). Someone with experience with the things would help even >more, of course, but I can't really expect to be that lucky. > >I'm still working on pulling it apart to find out what let out that >unpleasant smell.... > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Sep 8 20:45:53 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: TV alert -- more info References: <20040908223430.68492.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015301c4960e$d582bc80$21406b43@66067007> Great show I'm taping it here in Houston. Thanks for the tip. ----- Original Message ----- From: "evan" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 5:34 PM Subject: TV alert -- more info > http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/ > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 21:14:41 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Runout vs. Flatness and Dial test indicators References: <000601c49457$fe78ed20$f6a0fea9@kevinhome> Message-ID: <00a101c49612$c40535b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> If I recall (been a while since I've seen this thread and I *THINK* I started it)... runout would be measured against the outside rim of the platter, thus checking for a platter that is mounted off-center. flatness would be measured against the outer top surface of the platter, thus checking for a platter that is mounted "at an angle". Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Teoh" To: Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:25 PM Subject: Runout vs. Flatness and Dial test indicators > just would like to enquire.. > Is the DTI reading for run-out the difference between the high and low limits or is it the average of the difference > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 21:15:47 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: hi - re: HP1000/2000 References: Message-ID: <00ab01c49613$0f4435d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bet Bob is responding to this one on the F series. I may be talked into a 7905 drive, depending on where it's located and what position it's in. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sloane" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: hi - re: HP1000/2000 > Got any interesting stuff you might wanna trade for an HP1000/F (2117)? Or a > 7905 disc drive? > > Gary > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 21:26:31 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: hi - re: HP1000/2000 References: <00ab01c49613$0f4435d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00e101c49614$6bb0fcd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written... > 7905 drive, depending on where it's located and what position it's in. Yeah, see, I've decided I dont want any drives that are mounted horizontally. They have to be at a 37 degree tilted angle. Obviously I meant "condition". Jay From vax3900 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 20:25:32 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: TQK70 configuration In-Reply-To: <5E6407C6-007B-11D9-9649-000D936B1914@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20040909012532.68373.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philippe Vachon wrote: > Hello (again!). > > I'm very pleased with my VAX 4000/300 thus far, but > I'm about to get a > KZQSA card from someone, and I need to move my TQK70 > controller over on > the Q-bus so that the KZQSA card can fit into the Make sure there is no gap between your Q-bus cards. vax, 3900 > machine. However, > when I did a test run of this, the card was > responding (show dev showed > the card), but it wouldn't find the TK70 tape drive > attached to the > TQK70. Is there a jumper I have to set? Or did I > screw up in some other > way? > > Thanks. > > Phil. > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 21:31:22 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com><10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413B24C6.9020505@hp.com><10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413E3F77.8070709@tiac.net> <3.0.6.32.20040908123214.0098d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00f701c49615$18d8fd90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > exact model but Jay probably remembers, they were the model that he was > looking for last year. 7970E From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 21:36:43 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: Message-ID: <010901c49615$d84c86b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> on my end, it's no rush. But I also need to wait and try something, as a repair method for my particular breakage may have been found..... Jay From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 8 22:14:58 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives References: Message-ID: <413FCAB2.B7DBA5AE@compsys.to> >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, do check that the drives don't have their own termination jumper > > that's set - having the bus terminated twice at one end could cause all > > sorts of problems (and in theory damage devices on the bus, although > > I've never seen that happen in practice) > The problem is I'm trying to get a system working with several different > old MO drives (Maxoptix Tahiti 1, Pinnacle Micro REO-650/1300, Sony > ). The Maxoptix is not even being recongized, and may > well be dead dead dead. The Pinnacle is being recognized but I'm getting > the errors mentioned. The Sony drive gets recognized OK and the system > boots but then I get a bizarre message in the Adaptec BIOS that says it's > not a disk drive(!) Well then what is it? It's a Macinstor drive (ugh, > can't think...forgot who the manufacturer is). Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure if my experience will help or not, but just in case: BUT, first I should mention that I use an Adaptec PCI card: an AHA-2940AU with the MO drives on the external connector, so my experience MIGHT not apply to the ISA 1532 card, although, IIRC, I think was using a 1532 card in my old system about 3 years ago with about the same sort of problems! I have used both Pinnacle Micro REO-650 and Sony SMO S-501 drives at the same time on the same daisy chain. In general, I rarely have difficulty when there are multiple Sony drives on the SCSI bus. However, the Pinnacle REO drives are probably NOT cabled correctly since they usually are a problem, especially when the Pinnacle MO drive is the first in the chain. If you look inside the box, my experience has been that the centronics 50-pin connectors are NOT at the ends of the cable connected to the drive; with my Pinnacle REO-650 drive, the drive is at the END of the cable and one of the 50-pin centronics connectors is connected to the middle. While this configuration does not always cause a problem, even when there are just 2 MO drives (including 1 Pinnacle REO-650 drive), at this point, I ALWAYS avoid using any Pinnacle REO-650 drives UNLESS it is just ONE drive on the SCSI daisy chain. In addition, even when I used ALL Sony SMO S-501 drives, I found that the AHA-2940AU was NOT able to support more that 3 such Sony SMO S-501 drives, IIRC! I might have used 4 drives 1 or 2 times, but certainly NOT on a regular basis since the SCSI daisy chain seemed unable to support more than 3 SMO drives in my system. NOTE, however, that part of the problem could have been a rather long SCSI cable (about 6 feet) prior to where the first Sony SMO S-501 drive was connected to the SCSI daisy chain. For a while, I was using the 3 * Sony SMO S-501 drives under Windows 98 SE with E11 and RT-11. I also had a Sony SMO S-501 drive on a real DEC PDP-11 system with a CQD 220/TM SCSI host adapter. The primary purpose was for backup on both the PC and the PDP-11, but on some occasions, I used the MO media in production on the PC at the end of the session with a RAM: disk under E11 as the active RT-11 device since the MO media were so slow. Sellam, does this information help? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 8 22:19:47 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409090139.SAA22069@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409090139.SAA22069@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200409090326.XAA21583@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP >> LaserJet IIISi? [...] smelled that unpleasant smell that usually >> means the magic smoke has been let out of something. [...] > I also have an official service manual ( not much help for anything ). > I suspect that they think that anyone working on one of these would > be factory trained. :-( *growl* Fortunately once the outer cover is off everything seems to be fairly smooth sailing. > Other than the occational cleaning and a problem with the last > toner/drum assembly, mine works well. I had to replace the fuser on mine because I left it on 24/7 while printing only occasionally (every few days). The fuser eventually went bad under that treatment. But now this... > I've gotten some aftermarket RAM and put rediculously large amounts > of RAM in it. It also has Postscript, a duplexer ( I got from ebay ) > and an envelope feeder ( also from ebay ). Mine does PostScript, has since the day I got it. It doesn't have a duplexer; it's not really something I've missed. Envelope feeder - I rarely want to print more than one or two envelopes at once, so that too is something I've not really missed. > Smoke is a bad sign. Yes, I thought so. :( I didn't really see any smoke; I just smelled a most disturbing smell (and my attention was attracted by unusual sounds, which argues that the smell was probably not coincidental). I've now got it apart to the point where I'm fairly sure the power supply and logic boards are OK - nothing looks the least bit overheated on them. And to be fair the smell smelt more like a motor overheating (overheating seriously) than like a chip blowing. I'm not sure whether this is more hopeful or less. :-/ > While in the service, I had the nickname of "Mouse". It was because > anytime anyone with gold braid on their cap would enter an area that > I was in, I'd find a piece of equipment to hide behind. It was noted > that I was like a mouse. Heehee! I don't remember where my name came from (it dates back to the mid/late '70s and its origin is lost in the mists of flaky long-term memory), but it wasn't that. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 22:33:15 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: Message-ID: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> the machine running the emulator can be any pc white box.... does not even need to be all that fast.... heck the homeless around here bring me stuff the emulator would run on,,,, however,,,, if we had enough hp 2000 parts I would like to have the system functional..... we do not have a drive for it as the orig. got tossed eons ago ( not by me) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > > > > Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! > > cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will > > Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never need repair? > > > eventually break and need repair...... I have NO spares for 2100 > > processors...... > > I've not seriously investigated my 2100A yet (too many machines, too > little time...) but it looked to be mostly 74xxx and 74Sxxx TTL logic. If > you've not got spares for those, well, you've got many more problems... > > -tony > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 8 22:40:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <013801c4961e$c866ebb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > the emulator would run on,,,, however,,,, if we had enough hp 2000 parts I > would like to have the system functional..... we do not have a drive for it > as the orig. got tossed eons ago ( not by me) Ed, I've offered several times to troubleshoot and repair your HP2K system. Give me a list of exactly what all you have, so we will at least know what all you're missing. If you're willing to pay shipping, I'll repair and/or tell you exactly what is wrong with what. May even be willing to trade to get you any missing bits. Jay West From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 8 22:41:15 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409090326.XAA21583@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409090139.SAA22069@clulw009.amd.com> <200409090326.XAA21583@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040909034115.GA23534@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 08, 2004 at 11:19:47PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > Mine does PostScript, has since the day I got it. It doesn't have a > duplexer; it's not really something I've missed. Envelope feeder - I > rarely want to print more than one or two envelopes at once, so that > too is something I've not really missed. I've just found a good use for the envelope slot - printing directly on the paperboard inserts for SDLT tapes (modern 110/220GB descendant of TK50). We go through about 150 tapes a year for our data... I wanted to have printed inserts at the front of the cartridge, and the pre-perfed ones that come with the carts are about the size of an envelope... Working out the raw Postscript to define the bizarre page size was the hardest part. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 03:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.7 F (-43.8 C) Windchill -78.2 F (-61.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 319 Barometer 677.8 mb (10707. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 22:44:09 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso References: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <005201c495b7$88175200$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net><006c01c495b9$b0388900$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> <413F2E2E.4020307@srv.net> Message-ID: <007d01c4961f$4419a360$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> sorry on the laptop the last 2 days at the abode. it just is not the same as the keyboard on the museum system at my desk! ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Handy" To: ; "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso > ed sharpe wrote: > > >should have said in the previous message.....absinth ( had worm wood in it > >goggle this for more info). > > > > > goggle? Wouldn't eyeglasses work better? > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 22:46:14 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc><6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc><20040908175339.GB25904@jdboyd.zill.net> <16703.21858.699722.538660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <008701c4961f$8e6a4be0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Paul, who made the engine for the plugin iris or? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: Re: 20,046 page doc archive still available > >>>>> "Joshua" == Joshua Boyd writes: > > Joshua> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 01:59:21PM -0500, John Foust wrote: > >> I appreciate all the offers to host these files. > >> > >> I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to > >> augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. > > Joshua> Well, there are certainly plenty of ways to go from bitmaps > Joshua> to PDFs of bitmaps, like the old MIT AI Memo PDFs were done. > > Joshua> A few years ago I tried to OCR some DEC manuals, but I wasn't > Joshua> happy with the results I got at all. One program didn't work > Joshua> very well, and the other only wanted to spit out plain text > Joshua> without keeping for formatting or diagrams. They were both > Joshua> commercial programs. > > I have had good success with Adobe's OCR plugin for Acrobat -- free > for the download with a 50 page at a time limit. (It will do bigger > docs, in 50 page pieces.) It worked well enough to produce useful > output from a manual full of pictures (a flight manual). > > paul > > From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 8 22:53:36 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: on topic: my website (gak!) Message-ID: <1094702015.3834.23.camel@fiche> For over a year now, my (and a few thousand others) website is on-topic for the CC lists. I don't have a copy of my 1993 website, but it's close to the copy I have from April 1994: http://wps.com/archives/wps.com.11Apr1994/ (The content is, let's say, a bit rough, in more than one way at a time, but So It Goes. I do find my obsession with file size amusing though, but this was a 16K bits/sec "nailup" SLIP connection to the Little Garden. Alas, the gopher server [remember when gopher was the killer net app after email?] was taken down by 1995. The 'about wps' link describes the hardware & software, in use Jan 1994, which seems today much todo about nothing.) http://wps.com/archives/wps.com.21Oct1996/ others in the index From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 8 23:11:11 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> <013801c4961e$c866ebb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009b01c49623$0af3fb40$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> hi jay need a drive 2883 or a controller and a 79xx drive(s) will have to fire up the processors and see what happens there... if I was to run this system I would want a good stash of 2100s on hand... do you have any extra? ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > > the emulator would run on,,,, however,,,, if we had enough hp 2000 parts > I > > would like to have the system functional..... we do not have a drive for > it > > as the orig. got tossed eons ago ( not by me) > > Ed, I've offered several times to troubleshoot and repair your HP2K system. > Give me a list of exactly what all you have, so we will at least know what > all you're missing. If you're willing to pay shipping, I'll repair and/or > tell you exactly what is wrong with what. May even be willing to trade to > get you any missing bits. > > Jay West > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 18:06:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <10409090002.ZM19037@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 9, 4 00:02:18 am Message-ID: > > How about, 'type you name here' and it spits out paper tape with it > > punched as text? (I have C code for this). Paper tape is cheap even > > today, as you'd only need a foot or two per visitor. > > I was going to add that but ran out of tinme, when I... > > > (And if the tape had their name also coded as machine-readable, you > > could use it as a 'ticket' for other displays or activities...) > > ... wrote a short piece of PDP-8 assembler to do that on the ASR33 for > my nieces. Several of the visitors who have seen my PDPs have asked > for a bit of tape with something punched on it. I wrote a version of that for the Sharp PC1500 pocket computer years ago. It was really simple on that machine -- you printed the text to the LCD and then read the bitpatten back from the display (there was a BASIC function to do that). Then just sent the bytes to the RS232 port, which i connected to a punch. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 23:15:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409090111.VAA21212@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 8, 4 08:43:00 pm Message-ID: > > Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP LaserJet > IIISi? I have one. Yesterday, I turned it on, same as a zillion times Alas I've only worked on series 1 (CX) and 2 (SX) printers. But those I have _worked_ on (as in totally taken apart, investigated, reassembled -- without the manuals). > before, and it didn't come up normally; it was making an odd ticking > noise. I went to see what was up and smelled that unpleasant smell Maybe an SMPUS that's tripping due to a short on the secondary side somewhere. Could, of course, be a short in the load (e.g. motor driver, decoupling capacitor) > that usually means the magic smoke has been let out of something. I > turned it off immediately and have been spending the last hour or so > trying to figure out how to disassemble it to find out what's fried > (and try to estimate how user-replaceable it may be). The SX is _very_ modular and comes apart into official FRUs in about 10 minutes. The CX is somewhat worse, some of the sctions come out in bits. None-the-less these are not that hard to work on, so I assume the IIISi is not too bad either. The outer casing should come off easily when you've found the right screws.... -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 00:17:59 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409090535.BAA02129@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP >> LaserJet IIISi? [...] > Alas I've only worked on series 1 (CX) and 2 (SX) printers. But those > I have _worked_ on (as in totally taken apart, investigated, > reassembled -- without the manuals). Well, while my IIISi is a long way from being _totally_ taken apart, I've done a good deal with it. :) >> it was making an odd ticking noise. I went to see what was up and >> smelled that unpleasant smell that usually means the magic smoke has >> been let out of something. > Maybe an SMPUS that's tripping due to a short on the secondary side > somewhere. I believe your guess is correct. > The SX is _very_ modular and comes apart into official FRUs in about > 10 minutes. Actually, so does the IIISi - once you know how. But it's more like half an hour to 45 minutes if you have no reference and no experience. Anyway, I believe I've now found the offending bit. By the time I got it down to the point where anything more would mean some pretty major mechanical work - I'd pulled apart all the obviously-accessible electronics, and anything more is either more electrical than electronic (eg, motors) or very delicate stuff I am not about to mess with (eg, the driver circuitry for the laser) - by the time I reached this point, I'd failed to find anything obviously fried. So I put it back together but with one side tipped down, in the hope I could see something. It's possible to reassemble it electronically without completely reassembling it physically - in particular, it's possible to have most of the electronics in view. I then turned it on. Power came on and I saw some very brief visual event - looked like a flash of light, but as I wasn't foveating on it I couldn't really be certain - from a place where there is no component designed to do anything visually detectible. There was a small tick, and power went off again. A moment later power came back and I saw a wisp of smoke curling up from about where I saw the flash of light; it then blinked out again. Thus, I believe you are correct that the power supply was sensing overload and cutting out, repeatedly. Power off immediately, of course. Then I extracted the relevant PCB and inspected that spot closely. It appears that an electrolytic cap has sprayed some black substance out from between the cap and the board, coating everything in the vicinity (which fortunately is not much - just another similar cap and some incoming wires). The cap appears otherwise undamaged to an in-situ visual inspection, but it's fairly obvious to me that it is Not Healthy. Fortunately, it's mounted through-hole rather than a surface-mount (while I'm willing to believe the list that surface-mount components are replaceable, I do not want something like this to be my learning experience on the subject!). Also fortunately, it's a common-as-dirt value (220?F 35V), though since it appears to be a power decoupling cap, the exact value is probably not critical. I doubt I will have the leisure to replace it anytime soon, though, even though it means my printer will be down; the next couple of weeks, at least, are looking..busy. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 9 03:25:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094718319.8941.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 23:31 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! > > cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will > > Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never need repair? That's when you throw it out and get another one, though! (Sorry, indulging in a bit of "Tony baiting" there ;-) On a serious note though, a museum might not have a complete old machine (of whatever type) - experience is that for the big stuff things tend to arrive as parts here and there, so often all there is may be a rack with bits missing, or a console for a mainframe etc. In that case the item either has to sit in storage where nobody can see it, or live as a static exhibit. I'd say that's a perfect case where emulation is acceptable though as it adds something to the item for the public - of course the golden rule is not to modify the original item in any way, such that if the missing bits do ever turn up they can be added to the system in the hope of having an *original* working machine. Even then having the original working might not be practical though - whilst the skills might be there to fix the hardware, the time might not be. That's all too common at Bletchley; even if I have the skills to fix items there's only one of me (and sometimes less than that :) - the best I can do is collect together missing technical documentation where possible in the hope that someone else will have the time to work on items at a later date... Plus of course, as well as space & time, power and heat considerations may come into play; some of the bigger machines are expensive to run for a non-profit museum, and the heat they chuck out can be considerable (have a couple of DECs, the Marconi, and 20 or so micros running at once and it soon gets unbearably warm in our room!) cheers Jules From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 9 03:51:13 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040909015040.0522a728@mail.zipcon.net> Analog Devices AD667JN - AD667 12-Bit D/A Converter. it is some sort of Analog to Digital concertor board, possibly 24 channel.... At 05:32 PM 9/8/2004, you wrote: >I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards >acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. >1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating >specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use >this card? Is it PCI SCSI? > >A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some >pictures >http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill >Wilmington, Delaware >vintagecomptuer.net > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 9 03:57:16 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040909015638.03085440@mail.zipcon.net> and if it is the same computer dynamics company that is existant now they do mil-spec and air-force systems... http://www.cdynamics.com/ At 05:32 PM 9/8/2004, you wrote: >I have a mystery card to identify within a pile of miscellaneous cards >acquired recently. On the card is printed "DAD-48 Computer Dynamics, Inc. >1985." The cable jack is a 50-pin female. I am having trouble locating >specifics on the web, and I have looked everywhere. Where might one use >this card? Is it PCI SCSI? > >A picture is worth a thousand words. Here is a page I put up with some >pictures >http://vintagecomputer.net/dad-48/ > >Thanks in advance. > >Bill >Wilmington, Delaware >vintagecomptuer.net > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 9 04:14:22 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: who can identify this vintage card - "DAD-48" ? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040909015638.03085440@mail.zipcon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040908201018.03285da8@mail.degnanco.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20040909015638.03085440@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040909021355.0317aec0@mail.zipcon.net> At 01:57 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >and if it is the same computer dynamics company that is existant now they >do mil-spec and air-force systems... http://www.cdynamics.com/ and to answer my question, it's a STD bus board :) this is from the about CDI page... Incorporated in 1981 in upstate South Carolina, Computer Dynamics, Inc. (CDI) originated as a board-level supplier of STD Bus products for industrial automation and control. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 9 04:23:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: OT(ish) - floppy quality Message-ID: <1094721798.9066.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Is anyone else finding that new floppy disks these days tend to be total crud? I've just chucked yet another one (Sony) in the bin after it survived reading the data I'd put on it back a total of two times before it began to give read errors... (It's not the drive; I get the same problem regularly using several different drives, and have no trouble reading and writing to media that's several years old) Grrr! Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 9 05:44:47 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: OT(ish) - floppy quality In-Reply-To: <1094721798.9066.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909064054.030cd098@192.168.0.1> At 05:23 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >Is anyone else finding that new floppy disks these days tend to be total >crud? I've just chucked yet another one (Sony) in the bin after it >survived reading the data I'd put on it back a total of two times before >it began to give read errors... > >(It's not the drive; I get the same problem regularly using several >different drives, and have no trouble reading and writing to media >that's several years old) Noticed the same thing, increases wear on the sneakers terribly. But found the diskettes that Microsoft used for distributions are pretty good. And with old copies of Win95A, Access, Word, etc. you got a LOT of diskettes. Albeit with their funky 1.7MB format. Anyone gonna fuss about not preserving these? :-) Ed From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Sep 9 06:40:48 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Message arrival order? References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908120211.0480b5a8@pc> Message-ID: <00da01c49661$dab90850$7dc3033e@gamemachine> well at least we're getting them if it was on windows, we probably wouldnt be getting them at all :D Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephane Tsacas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 12:27 AM Subject: Re: Message arrival order? > On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:02:55 -0500, John Foust > wrote: >> I've been receiving messages out of order: I'm seeing >> the responses well in advance of the original messages. >> Why would the list software do that? >> - John > > Because it's based on unix ? ;-) > Stephane > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 05/09/2004 From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 9 07:56:02 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: archive viper rubber roller Message-ID: <200409091256.i89Cu2Cg031819@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi all - I've used the "norprene tygon tubing" hack to fix my tu-58 drives but now I'm faced with an Archive Viper 1/4" drive with a *seriously* gooey rubber roller... Has anyone gone the route of ordering a replacement part? Or shoud I just try a smaller diameter piece of tygon tubing? :-) I think I'd like a 'real' part if those can be had. Advice? -brad From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 9 09:07:51 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: [GreenKeys] Model 35KSR anyone?? (fwd) Message-ID: An FYI for the List - I'm not affiliated in any way - and I already have one of these beasties; a nice, solid machine... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:16:17 +0000 From: wa2hwj@att.net To: greenkeys@mailman.qth.net Subject: [GreenKeys] Model 35KSR anyone?? Greenkeyers, I have a very nice full-size Teletype Model 35KSR available. The typing unit appears to have never been used. Everything works, and the machine has the standard 20 ma. interface. The thing weighs about 150 lbs and shipping won't be cheap...but you know that! I will part with this treasure for $35 and can recommend a shipper. I can send pictures to anyone interested, but you'll have to wait until the weekend (when I'm at a home). Reason for selling: I need the space...for some reason my wife would like to park her car in the garage this winter(!). So, as I move stuff out of the garage and into the radio room, things are getting tight. When a difficult TTY decision has to be made, ASCII goes first! It is being replaced with two TT-4's and a TT-76 (Kleinschmidt's) and a complete AN/GRC-106 HF radio setup. (if you do the math, you'll notice that the newly-added stuff will take up more room than the 35...I said it was getting tight!) If interested, let me know...offer good only to Greenkeyers. If you come to pick up it (near Albany, NY) you might get some other goodies thrown into the deal. Otherwise, off to Ebay. 73, Jack WA2HWJ NNNN _______________________________________________ GreenKeys mailing list GreenKeys@mailman.qth.net http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 9 09:08:58 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions In-Reply-To: References: <56817.67.36.83.25.1094680143.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> Thanks so much for your help! Not knowing, I plugged the outside (on the end) scsi connection into a AHA-2940 and was able to see the drive (only had one handy) I had put inside. But later it did something twitchy, like complaining it could no longer WRITE to the drive, although reading seemed ok. I didn't care so much, it was just a basic test. I was hoping the blinkenlights on the outside of the drive carriers would work, but alas, they don't seem to. At 11:32 PM 9/8/2004 +0100, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Peters > > Sent: 08 September 2004 22:49 > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions > > > > drive containers each. The fan modules say BA35X-MD 2x which > > makes me suspect that I have a pair of DEC Storageworks BA356 > > enclosures. They are gray in color. > > > > They each have a personality module, apparently both BA35X-MH. > >16bit personality modules for wide-SCSI drives - the 8bit version was >BA35X-MG. This means you should have 2 68 pin plugs on there; make sure you >use the one down the side of the module rather than on the end. The end one >was for cascading. > > > What do the switches do? The personality module with the > > sticker on it that says SHELF 2 does NOT have the switches > > set according to the decal on the module-- they are all off, > > whereas on the decal, one is advised to turn switches 1-3 on > > and leave 4-7 off. > >I never had to change the switches on those; typically they were left unless >you were cascading shelves. I can check some -MH modules in the office >tomorrow if you're still stuck then. > > > The module from the other unit is marked SHELF 1 and is in > > fact set the way the decal advises. > >You've got a cascaded pair there then. > > > Are these personality modules in fact RAID controllers? > >Nope, purely personality modules to support 16bit disks. > > > Or do the SCSI ID numbers assigned by the enclosure get > > passed through to the SCSI connector? > >Correct; the SCSI ID is based on shelf number and which port on the host >machine you're plugged into. > > > Is there any software out there to configure these units as > > to what flavor of RAID to use? E.g. for Windows XP or Red Hat Linux? > >No need - it's all hardware based - plug disks into shelf, plug shelf into >host machine and use disks :) > >Cheers > >-- >Adrian/Witchy >Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private >home computer collection >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum >www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! >www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( [Computing] A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 9 09:54:56 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> <20040908175339.GB25904@jdboyd.zill.net> <16703.21858.699722.538660@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <008701c4961f$8e6a4be0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <16704.28352.446667.685385@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "ed" == ed sharpe writes: ed> Paul, who made the engine for the plugin iris or? I have no idea. I just grabbed it when I saw it and put it to work. The biggest issue is that cleanup is a real pain. Acrobat lets you "edit" the text, but only line by line. Yuck. And the OCR does a fair job of picking up changes in font, but it does get it wrong some of the time, so you can end up with a fairly ugly mix of Courier and Times. If the goal is to make searchable text and a smaller file, that isn't a big deal. If the goal is to make a clean document, that's different. I did two projects: a 400 or so page A-10 flight manual with goal #1, and the Ethernet standard, 90 or so pages, goal #2. That second one was quite a lot of work. It's arguable whether it was worth the trouble. Unfortunately, I did not find Al Kossow's archive until after I was finished... paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: >> I have had good success with Adobe's OCR plugin for Acrobat -- >> free for the download with a 50 page at a time limit. (It will do >> bigger docs, in 50 page pieces.) It worked well enough to produce >> useful output from a manual full of pictures (a flight manual). From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 9 10:39:02 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c49683$3db34ee0$1e01010a@Beovax.Local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Peters > Sent: 09 September 2004 15:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions > > longer WRITE to the drive, although reading seemed ok. I > didn't care so > much, it was just a basic test. Yeah, if you just get the shelf with the personality module already in you automatically assume that the outside one is the one to use :) > I was hoping the blinkenlights on the outside of the drive > carriers would work, but alas, they don't seem to. They should - the outermost one is the activity light (green) and the innermost one (orange) is the fault light. Mind, they're just jumpered off the drive itself so it's possible the drive in the carrier's been replaced and the connector not refitted. Cheers -- adrian/witchy owner & curator, Binary Dinosaurs - the UK's biggest online home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans www.aaghverts.co.uk - the place to whinge at adverts! From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 9 11:02:46 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: [GreenKeys] Model 35KSR contact In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here ya go - wa2hwj@att.net His name is Jack... Good luck on this! They're nice devices... I have one that I've used with my 11/44 (just for grins) and it works nicely - plus it's just damn fun to watch the print mechanism working - it has a square array of type pallets that are selected in the X-Y direction and then struck with the hammer - while the whole thing travels from left to right across the paper. I also have the Mod 35 docs should you need it... Cheerz John From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 9 11:26:05 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: Wrong reply Message-ID: Sorry for the obvious reply to a private message... But I do have Model 35 Doc s if not available on-line... We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussions of Mercury, Guns, Carburettors, and Sellam's State of Mind. Cheers John From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 9 11:25:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:01 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040908081205.059dec00@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > How can you stop anyone in the world who decides they want to harvest > web sites and assemble a convenient collection on CD/DVD/hard disk, > then sell it on eBay? > > It's easy to imagine that a zealous or well-funded copyright holder > would add the web site owner's name to the lawsuit. Actually, the worst that could happen to Al is that he'd have to take down the site. Then that would suck for ALL of us. Fie! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 11:42:32 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Wrong reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussions >>> of Mercury, Guns, Carburettors, and Sellam's State of Mind. >>> The first three I understand... The final item is totally imponderable [IMHO] From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 11:40:17 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409091640.AA13155@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > Does the collective list wisdom include repair hints for an HP LaserJet > IIISi? I have one. I have a 4Si, and as I've learned through 20/20 hindsight, it's exactly the same printer as the IIISi with the exception of two electronics boards (the formatter and the DC controller) which have been redesigned to do 600 DPI. The outside box and every internal part except for those two boards are exactly identical. I wish I had known this at the time I got mine. In July I went on a truck trip with Fred van Kempen to Mountain View, Calif., and as we were walking through town to his house after having left the truck at his office, we stumbled across a LaserJet IIISi left out to pasture by the side of the road. I wanted to pick it up and take it with me on the truck back to Southern Calif., but Fred strongly dissuaded me ("Mike, don't bother with this piece of junk, it's a 3 and you want a 4"). Had I picked it up and taken it, I would have probably saved a bunch of money on replacement parts I had to get for my 4Si after I got it to make it work fully. I got my 4Si from eBay for $60 (plus $99 for shipping), and as one can expect for this price, it came completely stripped of everything optional, i.e., of everything that isn't required for it to come up and print a test page. It came with only the base 2 MB of memory (perfectly reasonable for a little personal laser printer, but an insult for what's supposed to be a high-end print server), and of course my sheepish hopes of getting a PostScript module and/or a duplexer with it were dream, dream. There was one surprise of the pleasant kind, though. It was listed on eBay as having an Ethernet MIO card, but it came with a serial MIO card instead. Not even serial/parallel, just serial. Whoo-hoo! Purrfect! Of course everyone else in the world wants Ethernet and considers serial slow old stuff, I am me. :) One thing I did take from the IIISi in Mountain View was the serial/parallel MIO card, but I ended up not needing it. Just serial is better for me. Besides, unlike the IIISi one, the 4Si formatter board has a built-in bidirectional parallel port (something I very much disgust because it's so non-Classic) and having two parallel ports on the back only one of which is working would just look ugly. The bad news was that it would only print to the rear output slot, and any attempts to print to the main upper output bin resulted in front panel error messages about jams. I've called PrinterWorks (great laser printer gurus, www.printerworks.com) and they advised me to replace the job offset assembly. But I was still stuck at the point of not knowing how to take the sucker apart. OK, it was obvious how to get to the formatter board to add the PostScript ROM and memory SIMMs, but the engine resisted my attempts to figure out how it comes apart. So I went looking for a service manual. Found found on eBay in PDF on CD, bought it, had to wait for the CD to arrive, then go to Kinko's and have the PDFs printed. It was a pretty good deal: in addition to the combined IIISi/4Si service manual from HP (which is what made me realise that they are the exact same printer), there was also a generic laser printer repair book that taught a lot of general principles not specific to any given make or model, and approched things from a rather Tony Duell-like perspective. With the help of the service manual (OK, part swapper guide) I figured out how to take the sucker apart. I got to the job offset assembly and took it out for examination. It was dirty with grease, but not in the paper path, and there wasn't anything obviously wrong with it. I was hesitant at first about just buying a new job offset assy and trying to swap it in and see what happens, having heard Prof. Duell's admonitions against randomly swapping parts. But then I broke down and did it, as there was just nothing wrong I could see, it just didn't work. Familiar feeling, eh? Absolutely nothing wrong, it just doesn't work... Well, after buying a new job offset assy and putting it in, the problem went away and the printer now happily prints to the main output bin. I will never know what was wrong with the old job offset assy as the shop I bought the new one from required a core return. (By the way, even though job offset is a feature I absolutely don't need and have turned off, the job offset assy is a required part of the print engine and must be present and in good order whether you need job offset or not.) Then I needed to fatten it up with options. I needed the PostScript module of course (I consider PostScript to be the one and only printer language, so a laser printer without PostScript is a boat anchor to me), and I got it even before I fixed the main output bin woes. On the 4Si the PostScript module is a ROM SIMM that takes up one of the 4 SIMM slots. It's PostScript Level 2. After I got the main output bin working, I bought the duplexer from PrinterWorks. One of the reasons I needed a high-end printer is to print big specs and other stuff to go into 3-ring binders, so duplex printing is very important. It works, so I'm happy. Of course I needed to get more memory too. It was not happy at all with the duplexer and PS in there and only 2 MB to live in. Fortunately, I found a set of 3 compatible 8 MB SIMMs (maximum with one slot tied up by the PS ROM SIMM) on eBay for dirt cheap and now I have 26 MB total, the maximum with PS. It now works like a charm, configured for PostScript only (I like the pretend that PCL is not there), with an H8571-E MMJ adapter fitted into its stupid female DTE connector and connected to its driving 4.3BSD-Quasijarus host with a DECconnect MMJ serial cable, or The One True Interconnect. I wrote the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support for it, which will appear in the next release. Since it'll be released, I wrote the code for pure PostScript: it assumes a pure PS printer like the original Apple LaserWriter or DEC LN03R (something I would very much love to have for fun and experimentation, but unfortunately lack) and never allows the HP printer to fall out of PostScript mode into PCL. Plain text given to lpr is converted into PS by txtps, a 4.3BSD-Quasijarus utility, and *not* sent to the printer as-is. I also added functionality to lpd to control options like duplex (so I can do lpr -Php4si -Oduplex mydoc.ps), and it's implemented using PostScript Level 2 standard setpagedevice operator, NOT HP proprietary stuff like PJL commands. (Of course it's open source and modular, though, so if you need to modify it to work with your PostScript Level 1 printer, you can make it do whatever is necessary, provided that you can figure it out: I have no idea myself how to, for example, programmatically turn on duplex on a IIISi with PostScript Level 1.) > Yesterday, I turned it on, same as a zillion times > before, and it didn't come up normally; it was making an odd ticking > noise. I went to see what was up and smelled that unpleasant smell > that usually means the magic smoke has been let out of something. Reading the follow-up posts in this thread, I see that you've already found the failed PSU capacitor, so (hopefully) you should be all set once you find time to replace it. Feel free to ask again if you need more help or a copy of the service manual. After all this tinkering with mine (cleaning it inside out, getting to and replacing that job offset assembly, and fattening it up with options), I feel like an expert on the NX engine. Yes, like just about every laser printer in the world, it's a Canon engine, and this one is NX. The word engine is a bit misleading: I originally thought it meant something internal and did not include the outside appearance of the printer and input/output options like paper trays. As it turns out, NX engine means not just some inside guts like the laser or the motor, but the entire printer from plastic covers outside to the last screw inside is made by Canon. The ONLY HP part in there is the formatter with its associated I/O ports and font cartridge slots on the right side of the printer. This means that other printers based on the same engine will not only have some similar parts inside, but will look exactly identical outside except for a different logo painted on the top plastic cover, and the insides will be identical to the last screw rather than just share some common parts. Whew! I really did not expect that, I thought there was more diversity in the printer world. As some people may remember, prior to deciding on buying this HP 4Si, I was asking on this list a bunch of questions about DEC PrintServer 17 (LPS17), which was another printer I was considering. Well, imagine my amazement when I learned that it is also based on the NX engine and that the two printers I was debating between (LPS17 and HP 4Si) are in fact exactly the same printer with a different formatter board fitted in the pan on the right! Small world... The NX engine has 300 DPI and 600 DPI versions, and the difference is only in the DC controller board. Every other part is the same, as are options like the duplexer. Formatter boards would be different too, not just between HP IIISi and 4Si (which have a bit more significant differences at the formatter/personality level), but other folks like DEC who used the NX engine would have had to redesign the formatter board for the higher resolution when going from NX/300 to NX/600. But still, it's an interesting thought that all paper handling options, i.e., the duplexer, high capacity sheet and envelope feeders, etc., and even the plain paper trays are exactly the same between HP IIISi, HP 4Si, DEC LPS17, probably others... Speaking of paper trays for NX printers, I wonder if anyone here might have one piffling little plastic part they would be willing to part with. Do you know the metal plate/bar that goes across the tray near its back (most protruding) end? That metal plate/bar has two plastic pivots on its side that hold it in the tray. The right pivot in one of my trays is broken, but the tray is perfectly fine otherwise. Since it's just this piffling little plastic part that needs replacement, I really don't want a whole new tray. It's not a matter of cost, I just don't want another tray, I want to fix the one I have. The piffling little plastic part I need has a part number, RB1-1074, it's molded into the plastic and it's a Canon part number, so it's the same whether it came from Canon to you through HP or through DEC or however. But no printer parts store is willing to sell me that piffling little plastic part, they want to sell me another tray that I don't want. So I wonder, would someone here happen to have a spare RB1-1074 that I could have? Perhaps from a broken tray that's broken in another way? TIA, MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 11:46:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409091646.JAA22691@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" ---snip--- > >Also fortunately, it's a common-as-dirt value (220?F 35V), though since >it appears to be a power decoupling cap, the exact value is probably >not critical. ---snip--- Hi It looks like you found the problem. I wonder if this was one of those caps that were made with the stolen formula for the electrolyte. I would guess that replacing the cap should put it back in working order. Do clean the board of the material that comes out of the cap. It isn't highly corrosive but it will cause damage over time. Even though you don't see a great need for a duplexer, they are quite cheap on ebay. HP wanted soemthing like $450 for these. I payed $15 plus shipping. The envelope feeder was about the same. The local Staples store ( a local office supply company ) was getting rid of old obsolete toners. I bought two HP toner assemblies for $25 each. This is the cheapest I've ever seem them. I've seen other manufactures for around $60 each. Dwight From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 11:48:12 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409091648.AA13191@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > I had to replace the fuser on mine because I left it on 24/7 while > printing only occasionally (every few days). The fuser eventually went > bad under that treatment. Hmm, I use mine in the exact same manner, does this mean I'm mistreating the fuser? I wonder, would the powersave mode help? It turns off the heater, doesn't it? Right now my printer doesn't go into powersave because the lower tray is out (see my previous message about looking for a tray part), but it should work with both trays in. I would really like the printer to work as a server, even if it's a rarely used one. MS From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 9 11:49:01 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Wrong reply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909124536.033350a0@192.168.0.1> At 12:42 PM 9/9/2004, you wrote: > >>> > >>> We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussions > >>> of Mercury, Guns, Carburettors, and Sellam's State of Mind. > >>> > >The first three I understand... The final item is totally imponderable Not so hard to ponder; It really reduces quite nicely: As an anarchist Sellam has no State, which is a perfect match for that other thing he lacks. :-) Ed Kelleher From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Sep 9 12:00:21 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409091648.AA13191@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > > I had to replace the fuser on mine because I left it on 24/7 while > > printing only occasionally (every few days). The fuser eventually went > > bad under that treatment. > > Hmm, I use mine in the exact same manner, does this mean I'm mistreating > the fuser? I wonder, would the powersave mode help? It turns off the > heater, doesn't it? Right now my printer doesn't go into powersave because > the lower tray is out (see my previous message about looking for a tray > part), but it should work with both trays in. I would really like the > printer to work as a server, even if it's a rarely used one. > > MS > That reminds me, I have a bad 4SIMX printer (Jams) available for free (Pickup in SFBA only) It has Duplexer and Postscript options... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 11:59:37 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ethan Dicks wrote: > the pre-perfed ones that come with the carts are about the size of > an envelope... > > Working out the raw Postscript to define the bizarre page size was the > hardest part. Isn't the print engine fundamentally limited to its fixed set of paper sizes? This set includes several envelope sizes (3 I believe), but don't you have to choose one of them? And what PS code are you talking about? Can you share it? Is it Level 1 or Level 2? Did you really define a page size that is not in the firmware? How did you do it? If you do << /PageSize [x y] >> setpagedevice where [x y] is a paper size not known to the firmware, won't it just barf on you? (Supposed to throw a configurationerror.) Or was it PS Level 1 and you did it by dinking with some undocumented statusdict stuff? If the latter, my interest is piqued and I'd love to learn more. MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 12:04:16 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409091704.KAA22699@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org > >der Mouse wrote: > >> I had to replace the fuser on mine because I left it on 24/7 while >> printing only occasionally (every few days). The fuser eventually went >> bad under that treatment. > >Hmm, I use mine in the exact same manner, does this mean I'm mistreating >the fuser? I wonder, would the powersave mode help? It turns off the >heater, doesn't it? Right now my printer doesn't go into powersave because >the lower tray is out (see my previous message about looking for a tray >part), but it should work with both trays in. I would really like the >printer to work as a server, even if it's a rarely used one. > >MS > Hi The most common failure of the fuser lamps is not the filament, it is the contacts at the end. They get corroded over time. I've used some of the lower temperature silver solder on the lamp ends and that seems to work fine. I've not done this on the HP yet but I've fix a couple of copiers this way. Still, it is a lamp and they do fail over time. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 12:20:35 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409091720.KAA22708@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org ---snip--- > >With the help of the service manual (OK, part swapper guide) I figured ---snip--- Hi This is what I meant by worthless. It doesn't even list signals or anything. Nothing like a schematic exist. > >The NX engine has 300 DPI and 600 DPI versions, and the difference is >only in the DC controller board. Every other part is the same, as are >options like the duplexer. Formatter boards would be different too, >not just between HP IIISi and 4Si (which have a bit more significant >differences at the formatter/personality level), but other folks like >DEC who used the NX engine would have had to redesign the formatter >board for the higher resolution when going from NX/300 to NX/600. >But still, it's an interesting thought that all paper handling options, >i.e., the duplexer, high capacity sheet and envelope feeders, etc., >and even the plain paper trays are exactly the same between HP IIISi, >HP 4Si, DEC LPS17, probably others... I wonder if there is a Canon repair manual out there that actually has useful information in it? > >Speaking of paper trays for NX printers, I wonder if anyone here might >have one piffling little plastic part they would be willing to part with. >Do you know the metal plate/bar that goes across the tray near its back >(most protruding) end? That metal plate/bar has two plastic pivots on >its side that hold it in the tray. The right pivot in one of my trays >is broken, but the tray is perfectly fine otherwise. Since it's just >this piffling little plastic part that needs replacement, I really don't >want a whole new tray. It's not a matter of cost, I just don't want >another tray, I want to fix the one I have. The piffling little plastic >part I need has a part number, RB1-1074, it's molded into the plastic >and it's a Canon part number, so it's the same whether it came from Canon >to you through HP or through DEC or however. But no printer parts store >is willing to sell me that piffling little plastic part, they want to >sell me another tray that I don't want. So I wonder, would someone here >happen to have a spare RB1-1074 that I could have? Perhaps from a broken >tray that's broken in another way? TIA, > >MS > You may have to break down and buy a tray from ebay. I have seen a couple of parts trays show up on ebay. You know, missing the top or something. The biggest cost would be the shipping. For other, the IIIsi and 4si are heavy duty printers. Most of the cheaper table top models would not hold up to the kind of use these units will take. They are also quite fast as well. The one I have was used at the company I was previously at as a server printer ( hundreds if not thousands of pages a day ). I don't use it quite that much but it is great to have something that can do heavy work. If I have the information in digital form, it is better than having a copier. Dwight From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 12:28:25 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409091728.AA13449@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > That reminds me, I have a bad 4SIMX printer (Jams) available for free (Pickup > in SFBA only) It has Duplexer and Postscript options... Well, since I've already got mine working and fattened with the full set of options, I don't need it, but would you also happen to have a broken tray that could be raided for parts? See my long post, at the end where I ask about a little plastic part from a tray. MS From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 9 12:40:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Wrong reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> > >>> We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussions > >>> of Mercury, Guns, Carburettors, and Sellam's State of Mind. > >>> > > The first three I understand... The final item is totally imponderable > [IMHO] Tell me about it! Let me know if you do figure it out though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 9 13:03:26 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:07 PM 9/8/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >Joe R. wrote: > >snip > > >> >> I'd already pulled the most usefull boards and stored them inside. The >> remainder of the boards, CRTs, PSUs MIGHT eventually be usefull but I >> should already have all the parts that I'll ever need. I currently have >> eight fully operable MDS-800, two operable and one non-op MDS-2xxs and lots >> of spare parts. I don't really have the room to store the remaining >> chassis. That's why they're sitting outside. >> >> Joe >> >> > >EIGHT!!!! Damn, you are a hoarder! Yes, the surplus Gods have smiled on me :-) But I may have to sacrifice one (or more?) to appease the hurricane Gods. Ivan is on it's way here and it's a humdinger! STRONG catagory 5, Winds of 155 MPH with gusts to over 200 MPH! The central pressure is down to 920 millibars. I think that may be a record low pressure. Does anyone know? The lowest previously recorded was the Labor day hurricane of 1935 but I don't remember what the pressure reading in it was. I can store one of those in a dry >environment for you. ;) How about storing ME in a dry environment???? Joe > >-- >Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com >Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 12:29:41 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409091646.JAA22691@clulw009.amd.com> <0409091648.AA13191@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <200409091646.JAA22691@clulw009.amd.com> <0409091648.AA13191@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200409091822.OAA04513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...IIISi...blown power decoupling cap...] ["Dwight K. Elvey" ] > It looks like you found the problem. I wonder if this was one of > those caps that were made with the stolen formula for the > electrolyte. I couldn't say. :) > I would guess that replacing the cap should put it back in working > order. Do clean the board of the material that comes out of the cap. > It isn't highly corrosive but it will cause damage over time. I've now removed the cap. In case it helps settle speculation about that stolen formula, it's marked "nichicon", "220?F 35V", "PR(M)", "105?C", and "H9117". My guess is that "nichicon" is a brand name. [msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)] >> I had to replace the fuser on [my IIISi] because [...] > Hmm, I use mine in the exact same manner, does this mean I'm > mistreating the fuser? I don't know, actually. Mine failed, but I don't know whether it actually had anything to do with the way I left it on all the time while printing only occasionally. Someone was talking abotu the fuser lamp burning out. That is not what happened to mine; it continued to work as a fuser, but produced ghosts on the page, as if it picked up some of the toner from the page and deposited it down next revolution, a few inches further down the page. I determined it was definitely the fuser by opening the printer while printing a page. After a try or two I caught it with the page halfway through the fuser: the part after the fuser had ghosts, the part before didn't. [msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov), in another message] > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Working out the raw Postscript to define the bizarre page size was >> the hardest part [of making some envelopes work]. > Isn't the print engine fundamentally limited to its fixed set of > paper sizes? Perhaps, but that isn't really necessary in my experience; when I print envelopes, I let the printer think I'm doing 8.5"x11" and just feed the envelope into it instead of an ordinary page - and make certain the code does not try to put any marks anywhere outside the part of the page that actually falls on the envelope. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 9 13:28:11 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909142205.03307ff0@192.168.0.1> At 02:03 PM 9/9/2004, you wrote: > Yes, the surplus Gods have smiled on me :-) But I may have to sacrifice >one (or more?) to appease the hurricane Gods. Ivan is on it's way here and >it's a humdinger! Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action. And some don't believe in coincidence. :-) Supposed to be over your place Tuesday. If you have to head north, you and yours have a place here in South Carolina anytime you want it. Big house with basement and just sent the last puppy off to college. Bring your M1's and we'll go out to the range. Got a can of GI .30-06 en bloc from a guy for fixing his computer we can use. Best wishes, Ed Kelleher Columbia, SC 803-796-8858 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 9 13:28:19 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 09, 2004 02:03:26 PM Message-ID: <200409091828.i89ISJ7c028396@onyx.spiritone.com> > I can store one of those in a dry > >environment for you. ;) > > How about storing ME in a dry environment???? > > Joe Shoot, forget dry, how about just plain safe! Ivan sounds BAD! :^( Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 13:28:12 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409091822.OAA04513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409091646.JAA22691@clulw009.amd.com> <0409091648.AA13191@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200409091822.OAA04513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200409091846.OAA04602@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I would guess that replacing the cap should put it back in working >> order. > I've now removed the cap. [...] Duh, I forgot to say: I've more than removed the dead cap. The bottom of the cap is visibly damaged; it has lost a good deal of some black material. The baord is also visibly damaged; the component-side etch under the capacitor has lost its coating, and the board is significantly pitted, too. I replaced it with a 220/35 cap from my parts drawer; when I put the result in place, turning it on produced another flash of light from that area. I removed it again and cleaned the area with water and an old toothbrush and let it dry overnight. Now, the power supply no longer does the tick-tick-tick overload thing; it comes on and stays on. But it doesn't work; I get the usual walking lights, then the 05 SELF TEST display, then SWITCHING TO PS; after a bit, it changes to 55 SERVICE. This may be because I still have all the covers off - there may be sensor switches - or it may be because the pc board damage has broken a critical etch run or something. I do note a very faint ticking noise, disturbingly reminiscent of the one I mentioned before - but far less frequent (maybe every five seconds) and a great deal softer; I had to listen closely to be sure I wasn't imagining it. I think one of you said something about having a service manual; does it happen to say what 55 SERVICE means? Failing that, does anyone happen to have a spare board? It's the smaller of the two digital logic boards - the one that measures something like 6 by 8 inches, the one you have to remove the big one to get at. (I don't _like_ boardswapping, but absent the tools and doc I'd need to diagnose this one, I see little alternative.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 14:06:04 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <037701c480c7$e3fd6be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040909190604.34186.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Trying to help out a person with a DecMate II but no old PC to deal with the teledisk images. He says: "Do you think you might be able to make me an OS/78 disk that has the standard PDP-8 software development tools, like PAL8, FortranII, and Teco?" Is there any way to tell from the below images where to get this stuff (assuming it is even present) without downloading and transferring *everything*? Any sort of index file or something that maps to the zip files? Thanks for any help. rich --- vrs wrote: I made a nice little collection of software by copying the ones at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx50/teledisk/ _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 14:13:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409091913.MAA22771@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >>> I would guess that replacing the cap should put it back in working >>> order. >> I've now removed the cap. [...] > >Duh, I forgot to say: I've more than removed the dead cap. > >The bottom of the cap is visibly damaged; it has lost a good deal of >some black material. The baord is also visibly damaged; the >component-side etch under the capacitor has lost its coating, and the >board is significantly pitted, too. > >I replaced it with a 220/35 cap from my parts drawer; when I put the >result in place, turning it on produced another flash of light from >that area. I removed it again and cleaned the area with water and an >old toothbrush and let it dry overnight. > >Now, the power supply no longer does the tick-tick-tick overload thing; >it comes on and stays on. But it doesn't work; I get the usual walking >lights, then the 05 SELF TEST display, then SWITCHING TO PS; after a >bit, it changes to 55 SERVICE. This may be because I still have all >the covers off - there may be sensor switches - or it may be because >the pc board damage has broken a critical etch run or something. I do >note a very faint ticking noise, disturbingly reminiscent of the one I >mentioned before - but far less frequent (maybe every five seconds) and >a great deal softer; I had to listen closely to be sure I wasn't >imagining it. > >I think one of you said something about having a service manual; does >it happen to say what 55 SERVICE means? Hi I think most of the error messages are listed but sometime it just says something like "replace the xxx board under the main board". If you know what I mean. Look at the board carfully. It sounds like you had a small electrical fire. Remove any charred PC board and look to see if traces are burnt through. Missing solder mask is not an issue but missing copper is. I'll look for my manual to see what it says( not here so will report back tomorrow ). This sounds like a PS board. Not having the drawings here, this might be the case. If so, the diode or diode bridge may shorted. This would wipe out the cap and maybe a few more parts. Dwight > >Failing that, does anyone happen to have a spare board? It's the >smaller of the two digital logic boards - the one that measures >something like 6 by 8 inches, the one you have to remove the big one to >get at. (I don't _like_ boardswapping, but absent the tools and doc >I'd need to diagnose this one, I see little alternative.) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 9 14:29:03 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909152547.033885e8@192.168.0.1> At 02:03 PM 9/9/2004, you Joe R: >The central pressure is down to 920 millibars. I think that may >be a record low pressure. Does anyone know? Hugo that hit SC in 1989 had 918mb, we were without power for about a week http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at198908.asp Camille that hit Louisiana in 1969 had 905mb, 190MPH winds. http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at196903.asp From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 9 14:28:59 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Old DEC LSI-11 gear In-Reply-To: <20040909190604.34186.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> References: <037701c480c7$e3fd6be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <20040909190604.34186.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55130.67.36.83.25.1094758139.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Hello all. I've got a buncha DEC stuff in storage. The time has come for me to clean it out. I'd like to see it go to someone that would do something with it, but I'm not sure that person exists. Ideally, such a person would find it in there hearts to hand me a few bucks too, but its starting to look like that might be a bit much to ask. Trouble is, there's little that has a genuine DEC logo on it. The backplane is (I think) Netcom. It's Q-Bus. I think it's an 11/02. 28k words memory. I have a heathkit floppy controller and eight inch drive and some diskettes for it. I have a realtime clock/calendar card for it. I wrote a little piece of Fortran / RT-11 macro code for it to set the RT-11 clock from the card. I have four Diablo 31 drives, RK05 emulators, only one is crispy and won't load any more. Probably the interface buffers, can't be too hard to fix. I have an armload of disk packs for them. There's a word processing/spreadsheet package called Saturn, Fortran, Macro, enough of the O/S to build any variant of RT-11 (like F/B, realtime, etc). Last time I powered it all up, it booted RT-11. I'm located in the mid-west, in Wisconsin. Anyone suggest a kindly collector that might want it and would be willing to come and get it, or pay for shipping? -Tom From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 14:22:46 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409091913.MAA22771@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409091913.MAA22771@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200409091949.PAA05483@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I think most of the error messages are listed but sometime it just > says something like "replace the xxx board under the main board". If > you know what I mean. Yeah - but even if it does, it would be reassuring to know that the selftest agreed with me about what's at fault here. Or it could say something like "such-and-such sensor switch is stuck open", in which case I know I probably need to replace a cover or plug something in or some such. (There are two sockets with no cables to plug into them as far as I can tell; I don't _think_ I have any cable ends hiding, but....) > Look at the board carfully. It sounds like you had a small > electrical fire. Remove any charred PC board and look to see if > traces are burnt through. It's not clear whether there is any charred PC board. There certainly is _missing_ PC board, but it's not clear whether the black substance is charred board or just gunk from the capacitor that I haven't scrubbed away yet. There is at least one via that is damaged; I can see the little copper cylinder sticking up every so slightly from the damaged board around it. It's connected to a power wire on the foil side, though, so it's not clear whether it's essential or whether perhaps the capacitor lead's hole substitutes acceptably. It's not that easy to look very closely at the damaged area; it's surrounded on three sides by components tall enough to get in the way of things like cleaning efforts. I may remove the cap I added and see if that lets me scrub it any cleaner. > Missing solder mask is not an issue but missing copper is. Obviously - though if there's any copper missing on the top layer, it appears to be part of a high-area fill, probably ground, and thus relatively inessential. > I'll look for my manual to see what it says( not here so will report > back tomorrow ). That would be appreciated. No hurry, though; I'm about to take off tomorrow and won't be near the printer for a week or two if I can't get it fixed pretty early tomorrow morning. > This sounds like a PS board. It's not. The caps are right next to the only heavy wires that connect to it; I'm sure they're incomng power (the board they connect to _does_ look like a power supply board) and the caps are just for local decoupling. Also, with the replaced cap, as I said, there are no more pyrotechnics and the main power supply does not go into its overload failure mode, so there doesn't seem to be anything still shoretd out. The flashes of light, though, indicate _something_ was shorting; the one after I replaced the cap leads me to fear that there was a short and some conductor acted as a fuse. I may get out a voltmeter to see if the various chips are getting power (some of them are stock 7400-series logic, so finding ground and +5, at least, will be easy). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Sep 9 14:45:18 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... Message-ID: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> Which to buy? I am looking at two different ones - The WTCPT which you have to buy different tips to control temperature or the WES51 which has adjustabel temperatur control and is a little cheaper. I know either one would probably be a good investment but what is the advantage of one over the other? Thanks!, Bryan Pope From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 14:51:52 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: traveling Message-ID: <200409091955.PAA05637@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Looks as though I'll probably be in Wisconsin for most of next week - Milwaukee and Madison are the principal cities I'll be in. Anyone interested in getting together, anything on-topic to go see/do, anything like that? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 9 14:48:56 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DECMate II References: <20040909190604.34186.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d801c496a6$0c01d240$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> To: > Is there any way to tell from the below images where to get this stuff > (assuming it is even present) without downloading and transferring > *everything*? Any sort of index file or something that maps to the zip files? > --- vrs wrote: > >I made a nice little collection of software by copying the ones at > >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimag es/rx50/teledisk/ Up and over one, at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/diskimages/rx50/labels/ are the diskette labels. Unfortunately, they don't list the actual files in the images. I would guess that "os278wc" is most likely to have what you want, but I will see if I can verify that. Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 15:16:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409092016.NAA22803@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> I think most of the error messages are listed but sometime it just >> says something like "replace the xxx board under the main board". If >> you know what I mean. > >Yeah - but even if it does, it would be reassuring to know that the >selftest agreed with me about what's at fault here. Or it could say >something like "such-and-such sensor switch is stuck open", in which >case I know I probably need to replace a cover or plug something in or >some such. (There are two sockets with no cables to plug into them as >far as I can tell; I don't _think_ I have any cable ends hiding, >but....) Hi Might be for the duplex or some other option. > >> Look at the board carfully. It sounds like you had a small >> electrical fire. Remove any charred PC board and look to see if >> traces are burnt through. > >It's not clear whether there is any charred PC board. There certainly >is _missing_ PC board, but it's not clear whether the black substance >is charred board or just gunk from the capacitor that I haven't >scrubbed away yet. > >There is at least one via that is damaged; I can see the little copper >cylinder sticking up every so slightly from the damaged board around >it. It's connected to a power wire on the foil side, though, so it's >not clear whether it's essential or whether perhaps the capacitor >lead's hole substitutes acceptably. > >It's not that easy to look very closely at the damaged area; it's >surrounded on three sides by components tall enough to get in the way >of things like cleaning efforts. I may remove the cap I added and see >if that lets me scrub it any cleaner. > >> Missing solder mask is not an issue but missing copper is. > >Obviously - though if there's any copper missing on the top layer, it >appears to be part of a high-area fill, probably ground, and thus >relatively inessential. > >> I'll look for my manual to see what it says( not here so will report >> back tomorrow ). > >That would be appreciated. No hurry, though; I'm about to take off >tomorrow and won't be near the printer for a week or two if I can't get >it fixed pretty early tomorrow morning. > >> This sounds like a PS board. > >It's not. The caps are right next to the only heavy wires that connect >to it; I'm sure they're incomng power (the board they connect to _does_ >look like a power supply board) and the caps are just for local >decoupling. > >Also, with the replaced cap, as I said, there are no more pyrotechnics >and the main power supply does not go into its overload failure mode, >so there doesn't seem to be anything still shoretd out. The flashes of >light, though, indicate _something_ was shorting; the one after I >replaced the cap leads me to fear that there was a short and some >conductor acted as a fuse. I may get out a voltmeter to see if the >various chips are getting power (some of them are stock 7400-series >logic, so finding ground and +5, at least, will be easy). Sounds like a good plan of attack. I'm relatively sure that you have had some electrical fire. The black stuff may be tar. If so, things like lighter fluid or kerosene should dissolve it. Dwight From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 9 15:17:16 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: archive viper rubber roller Message-ID: <20040909201716.B16EB3C52@spies.com> > I think I'd like a 'real' part if those can be had. Advice? -- I have a pile of drives I've been buying for just this reason. Unlike the Wangteks, later rev Archive drives kept the same pinch roller. If you're unable to find any out there, I'll send a known working drive out (assume you want the bare Q36 one..) I assume this is for Q24 media (9 trk) ? From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 9 15:19:29 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... Message-ID: <20040909201929.570723C52@spies.com> > Which to buy? A used Metcal. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 15:19:56 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409092019.AA13838@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > Duh, I forgot to say: I've more than removed the dead cap. Where was it? I thought it was on one of the PSU boards, but you now seem to imply it's on the DC controller. > Now, the power supply no longer does the tick-tick-tick overload thing; > it comes on and stays on. But it doesn't work; I get the usual walking > lights, then the 05 SELF TEST display, then SWITCHING TO PS; after a > bit, it changes to 55 SERVICE. The control panels lights and LCD are controlled by the formatter board. That's the big one on the right, the one that memory and PostScript options go onto and MIO cards and font cartridges go into, and the only board in the entire printer that makes it an HP LaserJet IIISi as opposed to, say, DEC LPS17. The fact that it walks the lights, enters the self-test and knows about PS indicates that the formatted board is probably OK. The formatter board talks to the DC controller, which is the main print engine controller, which controls the entire Canon-built NX engine. The formatter board throws up a 55 error if it can't talk to the DC controller. If the board you are having woes with, the one damaged by the blown cap, is indeed the DC controller board, then it's probably the culprit. The DC controller board is in the front right area of the printer, below the control panel, directly behind the plastic front cover. If you take a close look at the front cover between the tray openings and the font cartridge slots, you'll see a small hole. This hole provides access to the engine test button on the DC controller board. If you push this button, the DC controller will print an engine test page independently of the formatter, i.e., it'll forcibly override whatever the formatter is directing it to do and will work even if the formatter is missing or dead. Try it. But it looks like your problem is the opposite, good formatter and bad DC controller. > This may be because I still have all > the covers off - there may be sensor switches There are no sensor switches for the plastic covers. There are sensors for fans and it'll halt if any fan is unplugged. The AC input assembly in the PSU area has an interlock switch that cuts off the AC to the fuser and the "B" side of +24V DC that powers the main motor, the laser, and the high voltage supply for the imaging system if the top is lifted. The "A" side of +24V DC that powers all logic is always on. The only other interlock switches are the higher-level "top open" switch that doesn't cut off any power, but tells the thing to stop and complain about the open top on the LCD, and the EP cartridge presence detect switches. > I think one of you said something about having a service manual; does > it happen to say what 55 SERVICE means? -- quoting: -- The "55 Service" error indicates that the printer failed to initialize correctly at power ON. This means that the Formatter cannot communicate with the engine in order to establish the initial condition of the engine. This problem can be caused by a bad Formatter, bad cable, or by problems with the line voltage. Check and reseat connectors J4 and J5 on the DC Power Supply, and J8, J9, and J10 on the DC Controller PCA. Cycle the power several times to clear the error or to get another error that may better indicate the cause of the problem. If this clears the error, run an engine test print. If the error persists, replace the Paper Pickup PCA, the DC Controller PCA, the DC Power Supply PCA, the Formatter PCA. Finally, replace the Paper Input Unit. If these fail to correct the problem, check all associated cables for damage and replace if required. Any 57.1 Main Motor problem can also cause this error. -- end quote -- > Failing that, does anyone happen to have a spare board? It's the > smaller of the two digital logic boards - the one that measures > something like 6 by 8 inches, the one you have to remove the big one to > get at. I think you are talking about the DC controller board. Someone just posted about having a bad HP 4SiMX for free for the taking. He said it jams, so that's probably a mechanical problem and the electronics is probably OK. He is in California (Bay Area), i.e., nowhere near you, but if you can convince him to take out and send you the formatter and the DC controller boards, that might work for you. You'll need both boards and the cable between them since it's a 4Si. Since the two printers are otherwise identical, swapping those two boards will turn your IIISi into a 4Si, i.e., you'll get 600 DPI and PostScript Level 2. You might also need a few other bits like the control panel (I'm not sure if they changed it), but nothing major and certainly nothing heavy. And if you two do work out that arrangement, I could take the rest for spare parts next time I'm in the Bay Area. (I'm in Southern Calif.) MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 15:20:48 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... Message-ID: <200409092020.NAA22809@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bryan Pope" > > > >Which to buy? I am looking at two different ones - The WTCPT which you >have to buy different tips to control temperature or the WES51 which has >adjustabel temperatur control and is a little cheaper. > >I know either one would probably be a good investment but what is the >advantage of one over the other? > >Thanks!, > >Bryan Pope > > Hi I use the WTCPT type but I think these are now days being replaced by the adjustable ones. I've stopped buying the entire station and just buy the handles. The base just contains a 24V transformer and a fuse. A radio shack transformer works fine and is a lot cheaper. A little piece of plywood and coat hanger wire make up the rest. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 15:32:07 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Just Call me Crazy... In-Reply-To: <200409092016.NAA22803@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: All, I am heading down to South West Florida tomorrow morning [yes I know about Ivan]. Was wondering if anyone had recommendations of Classic Computer related (or other interesting) activities in the Cape Coral / Ft. Myers area. David From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 15:29:45 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409092029.AA13884@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > (There are two sockets with no cables to plug into them as > far as I can tell; I don't _think_ I have any cable ends hiding, > but....) The big cavity clearly visible from the rear with the covers off is for the duplexer. The socket in the corner of this cavity right next to the formatter/PSU area is where the duplexer connects, that socket is wired to the DC controller and is very handy for checking voltages. The other socket is on the front directly above the upper tray cavity, that's for the envelope feeder. It is wired to the Paper Input PCA. The service manual contains a one page main wiring diagram. No schematics for individual boards, but at least all inter-board connections are shown with pinouts. MS From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 9 15:36:54 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DECMate II References: <20040909190604.34186.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e401c496ac$bff285a0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > "Do you think you might be able to make me an OS/78 disk that has the standard > PDP-8 software development tools, like PAL8, FortranII, and Teco?" OK, I had a chance to play around in the basement...PAL8 and Teco are on the 0s278wc disk, but Fortran is not. For Fortran it looks like you need dm1012. Vince From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 15:51:17 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DECMate II In-Reply-To: <00e401c496ac$bff285a0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040909205117.6192.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> --- vrs wrote: > > "Do you think you might be able to make me an OS/78 disk that has the > standard > > PDP-8 software development tools, like PAL8, FortranII, and Teco?" > > OK, I had a chance to play around in the basement...PAL8 and Teco are on the > 0s278wc disk, but Fortran is not. For Fortran it looks like you need > dm1012. > > Vince Thanks much Vince. This will save me alot of time! Appreciate it. rich _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 15:54:51 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Just Call me Crazy... Message-ID: <20040909205451.69075.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> A friendly reminder, I keep a list of places to visit nationwide, at the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter's web site: http://news.computercollector.com (click the "on the road" link) ... so far the directory has more than 50 listings (unfortunately none in Florida yet). - Evan From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 9 16:09:59 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DECMate II References: <20040909205117.6192.qmail@web21522.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010401c496b1$5e487080$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > > OK, I had a chance to play around in the basement...PAL8 and Teco are on the > > 0s278wc disk, but Fortran is not. For Fortran it looks like you need > > dm1012. > Thanks much Vince. This will save me alot of time! Appreciate it. No problem. I still have Teledisk and PUTR set up on a PC in the basement, so it was just a matter of remembering how to use them :-). Vince From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 15:43:53 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409092019.AA13838@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0409092029.AA13884@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409092019.AA13838@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <0409092029.AA13884@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200409092115.RAA06122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [pcw@mesanet.com, there's a note addressed to you some 2/3 of the way through, in case you'd otherwise not read the whole thing] [msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov), two different messages, both replies to me] >> Duh, I forgot to say: I've more than removed the dead cap. > Where was it? I thought it was on one of the PSU boards, but you now > seem to imply it's on the DC controller. Based on your description of what's what, I think so: the board it's on matches your description of the DC controller. > The control panels lights and LCD are controlled by the formatter > board. That's the ... ...one the ribbon cable from the control panel plugs into. :-) > The fact that it walks the lights, enters the self-test and knows > about PS indicates that the formatted board is probably OK. This is no surprise to me, since the trouble appears to have been entirely elsewhere. > The formatter board throws up a 55 error if it can't talk to the DC > controller. If the board you are having woes with, the one damaged > by the blown cap, is indeed the DC controller board, then it's > probably the culprit. Then it seems likely to me that a main power supply line got shorted and decided to play fuse, and the DC controller is now getting no power at all. I need to sic a voltmeter on some of those connections and see what it can tell me. [But see below.] > If you take a close look at the front cover between the tray openings > and the font cartridge slots, you'll see a small hole. This hole > provides access to the engine test button on the DC controller board. Okay, it's definitely the DC controller board, then. I saw that switch and wondered what it was for; I couldn't see anything that would push it, but the presence of a plastic extension to make it pushable clearly indicated it was deliberate. > If you push this button, the DC controller will print an engine test > page independently of the formatter, i.e., it'll forcibly override > whatever the formatter is directing it to do and will work even if > the formatter is missing or dead. Try it. But it looks like your > problem is the opposite, good formatter and bad DC controller. I went to do this, but when I put it all back together and turned it on, all armed with a voltmeter to check power, when I turned it on one of the LEDs on the DC controller board came on, something I cannot recall happening before. So I just let it sit, and darned if it doesn't work fine - all sprawled all over the table, but working. However, the selftest button does not work; as far as I can tell it does nothing at all. I even tried holding it in for some 15-20 seconds and it still did nothing, despite printing working normally from the network and printing a selftest page when told to do so using the front-panel buttons. > Someone just posted about having a bad HP 4SiMX for free for the > taking. He said it jams, so that's probably a mechanical problem and > the electronics is probably OK. [...] You'll need both boards and > the cable between them since it's a 4Si. Since the two printers are > otherwise identical, swapping those two boards will turn your IIISi > into a 4Si, i.e., you'll get 600 DPI and PostScript Level 2. Now _that_ would be nice (both of those). I think this was Peter Wallace, pcw@mesanet.com. Peter, might you be willing to do that? I'd be happy to snail you a cheque for postage and a bit on top of it for your time. > And if you two do work out that arrangement, I could take the rest > for spare parts next time I'm in the Bay Area. (I'm in Southern > Calif.) If nobody takes it before then, and Peter isn't willing/able to, might _you_ be willing to extract those and send them to me? >> (There are two sockets with no cables to plug into them as far as I >> can tell; I don't _think_ I have any cable ends hiding, but....) > The big cavity clearly visible from the rear with the covers off is > for the duplexer. The socket in the corner of this cavity [...] > The other socket is on the front directly above the upper tray [...] No, neither of those. I refer to two sockets on the DC controller board. One is a two-pin socket in the upper right (looking from the right side of the printer at the board mounted in place), the rightmost socket on the top edge of the board; the other is a socket of, if I counted right, 30 pins in a 2x15 array, on the left edge of the board; the bottom edge of this socket is immediately above the self-test switch you describe (but on the other side of the board). The former is marked as J005, the latter J014. Since it works apparently fine as it is, and I can't see any cables to plug into either, I'm inclined to ignore them. (I really should have been taking better notes when dissecting it originally....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 9 16:20:50 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> References: <56817.67.36.83.25.1094680143.squirrel@67.36.83.25> <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> Message-ID: <20040909212050.GA3776@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:08:58AM -0500, Tom Peters wrote: > Not knowing, I plugged the outside (on the end) scsi connection into a > AHA-2940 and was able to see the drive (only had one handy) I had put > inside. But later it did something twitchy, like complaining it could no > longer WRITE to the drive, although reading seemed ok. I didn't care so > much, it was just a basic test. Hmm... that seems odd... does the drive still work if you pull it from the canister and hook it up to a controller in a more traditional arrangement? I have a BA-356 at home attached to a SPARC5 - I literally just loaded up a few canisters, hooked the cable to a free SCSI port, and all the drives just showed up. No voodoo. Between the backplane of the BA-356 and the personality module, things should just be "taken care of". IIRC, the reason for picking one SCSI connector over the other on the personality module has to do with auto-termination. I don't recall which one I have (it's 12,000 miles away), but mine came with the wrong variety of SCSI cable (the host end was high-density connector that's common to ultra-modern adapters, not found on vintage equipment), so I had to cobble something together - I think I had to use an ordinary 68-pin HP SCSI cable to the "wrong" port on the BA-356, then use a 68-pin ribbon cable to access the other port, then explicitly terminate it. If you can use the "normal" StorageWorks cables, you shouldn't have that problem. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -36.3 F (-38.0 C) Windchill -67.09 F (-55.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.3 kts Grid 315 Barometer 672.9 mb (10896. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Sep 9 16:27:51 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... References: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <013901c496b3$dd3d21e0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> I use an old PS 2D from years back. it's temperature controlled by tip exchange. and to be honest after years of use, i've only ever changed the tip 3 times. (except for different types of "end"). I also have a newer weller (that's @ work - I forget what type) which is temperature controlled by a knob on the front. and again I've never had a problem wih it. Personally I like the one with the knob for gadget rights, but either one will be suitable. if you intend to do a lot of SMC work then I suggest the one with the knob. however it's just as easy to change the tip :D regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:45 PM Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... > > > Which to buy? I am looking at two different ones - The WTCPT which you > have to buy different tips to control temperature or the WES51 which has > adjustabel temperatur control and is a little cheaper. > > I know either one would probably be a good investment but what is the > advantage of one over the other? > > Thanks!, > > Bryan Pope > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 05/09/2004 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 9 16:33:49 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: What was I running and can it be emulated? Message-ID: Once upon a time when I was in High School, I used to visit Santa Clara University. I would get there 0-dark:30. I was able to use card punches to create my program decks, There were some sort of pre-punched JCL cards. Cards in Hopper - I think I pushed something - cards read 2100 rumbles Line printer starts printing. So It was some sort of batch system. I think it had Algol and Fortran and Assembly Language as it's languages. Hp 2100 (square white lights) Card Reader Line Printer 1 Cartridge disk drive with a flat disk that slid in horizontally 1 9 track tape drive Highspeed paper tape reader Highspeed punch Boot tape was a bout 2 ft long something special about the octal number 102077 BTW will simh compile on Mac OS X? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 9 16:51:44 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: What was I running and can it be emulated? In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Sep 09, 2004 02:33:49 PM Message-ID: <200409092151.i89LpiMW003376@onyx.spiritone.com> > BTW will simh compile on Mac OS X? Yes. Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 9 17:07:58 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... References: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <16704.54334.706617.843183@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bryan" == Bryan Pope writes: Bryan> Which to buy? I am looking at two different ones - The WTCPT Bryan> which you have to buy different tips to control temperature or Bryan> the WES51 which has adjustabel temperatur control and is a Bryan> little cheaper. Bryan> I know either one would probably be a good investment but what Bryan> is the advantage of one over the other? I have a WTCPS (predecessor of the WTCPT, same technology). It's an excellent device. Apart from my extra-big tip (which is the 800 F variant) all the others are the standard 700 F. I've never run into a need for variable temperature. Selectable tip size, yes, but that of course requires a new tip either way. paul From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 9 17:13:12 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409091640.AA13155@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409091640.AA13155@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040909221312.GH3776@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:40:17PM +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > I have a 4Si, and as I've learned through 20/20 hindsight, it's exactly > the same printer as the IIISi with the exception of two electronics > boards (the formatter and the DC controller) which have been redesigned > to do 600 DPI. The outside box and every internal part except for those > two boards are exactly identical. Interesting - I have a IIISi at home that was all of $10 at the local Uni surplus (it needed a pair of new transfer rollers and separation pads - about $30 new - and it's been a great printer ever since). It seems that an in-box upgrade to 4Si would be possible... if I happen to see an unhappy 4Si at surplus in the future, I'll have to pick it up. Thanks for the NX-engine tour, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -35.9 F (-37.7 C) Windchill -66.90 F (-54.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 322 Barometer 672.6 mb (10904. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 9 17:20:54 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: What was I running and can it be emulated? Message-ID: <20040909222054.371C83C58@spies.com> I think it had Algol and Fortran and Assembly Language as it's languages. -- It was probably either DOS-M or an early RTE A lot of work has been done recently getting these OSes running in SIMH, so it should be possible. I don't know if Bob has put bootable disc images up for them yet, though. I have all of the manuals scanned, but not on line yet for these two systems. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 17:34:11 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409092234.AA14133@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > I went to do this, but when I put it all back together and turned it > on, all armed with a voltmeter to check power, when I turned it on one > of the LEDs on the DC controller board came on, something I cannot > recall happening before. One of the LEDs indicates that the main motor has reached its operating speed, the other LED indicates that the scanner motor has reached its operating speed. > However, the selftest button does not work; as far as I can tell it > does nothing at all. I even tried holding it in for some 15-20 seconds > and it still did nothing, despite printing working normally from the > network and printing a selftest page when told to do so using the > front-panel buttons. Now this is weird, I have no explanation for it. It's supposed to continuously print pages of vertical lines for as long as the switch is down. Perhaps one of the damaged PCB traces went to this switch? > I think this was Peter Wallace, pcw@mesanet.com. Yes. > If nobody takes it before then, and Peter isn't willing/able to, might > _you_ be willing to extract those and send them to me? I would certainly be willing to do it, if nothing else for the sake of the experiment, since while logic is telling me that the IIISi and 4Si are the same printer except for those boards, I've never actually tried a swap. The problem is that I would only be able to do it after I get Peter's 4SiMX in my hands (that's assuming Peter wants to give it away for free and no one else takes it first), and I don't know when I'll be in the Bay Area. While having a source of spares for mine would certainly be nice, I won't make a trip to the Bay Area just for that. I normally go there twice a year for the Bay Area UFO Expo and for Conspiracy Con, but the Bay Area UFO Expo just passed two weeks ago and Conspiracy Con is in May. I don't think Peter would hold the printer for me for that long. > The former is marked as J005, the latter J014. These are some kind of test/debug connectors and aren't used in the field. MS From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 9 17:57:02 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:02 2005 Subject: traveling In-Reply-To: <200409091955.PAA05637@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200409091955.PAA05637@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040909173209.04b2dbf8@pc> At 02:51 PM 9/9/2004, der Mouse wrote: >Looks as though I'll probably be in Wisconsin for most of next week - >Milwaukee and Madison are the principal cities I'll be in. Anyone >interested in getting together, anything on-topic to go see/do, >anything like that? http://www.bussvc.wisc.edu/swap/swap.html in Madison opens bright and early (and be there) at 8 a.m. Friday to the public. It always has all sorts of old computer stuff from the UW as well as State. Plenty of contemporary PCs, but sometimes other items. The web does not show everything that's there. I'm halfway between Milwaukee and Madison, but my place is a mess due to a remodeling project and all old computers are in basement storage. Jay Jaeger is in Madison. Offhand, I don't remember many other list members in this area. - John P.S. Private mail bounced because it didn't like my firewall: >>> HELO pc.threedee.com <<< 501 HELO argument must be a valid domain name. 'mail.threedee.com' is its DNS, 'pc' its internal. Whoops. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 9 18:00:55 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: archive viper rubber roller In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:17:16 PDT." <20040909201716.B16EB3C52@spies.com> Message-ID: <200409092300.i89N0tZV017631@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >I have a pile of drives I've been buying for just this reason. >Unlike the Wangteks, later rev Archive drives kept the same >pinch roller. If you're unable to find any out there, I'll >send a known working drive out (assume you want the bare Q36 >one..) you need a roommate? :-) >I assume this is for Q24 media (9 trk) ? I'm actually not sure. It's a 1/4" drive. I think it may be qic-150 drive which uses dc-300 carts. But I may have those numbers all wrong. (oh I see, qic-24 is track, qic-150 18 track. ok, that might explain by some cards work in some drives but not others ;-) I'm at home now - I'll email the model # tomorrow. and thanks for the offer - I sent some email to a few repair shops - we'll see what they say. -brad From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 18:26:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409092326.QAA22908@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org > >der Mouse wrote: > >> I went to do this, but when I put it all back together and turned it >> on, all armed with a voltmeter to check power, when I turned it on one >> of the LEDs on the DC controller board came on, something I cannot >> recall happening before. > >One of the LEDs indicates that the main motor has reached its >operating speed, the other LED indicates that the scanner motor has >reached its operating speed. > >> However, the selftest button does not work; as far as I can tell it >> does nothing at all. I even tried holding it in for some 15-20 seconds >> and it still did nothing, despite printing working normally from the >> network and printing a selftest page when told to do so using the >> front-panel buttons. > >Now this is weird, I have no explanation for it. It's supposed to >continuously print pages of vertical lines for as long as the switch >is down. Perhaps one of the damaged PCB traces went to this switch? > >> I think this was Peter Wallace, pcw@mesanet.com. > >Yes. > >> If nobody takes it before then, and Peter isn't willing/able to, might >> _you_ be willing to extract those and send them to me? > >I would certainly be willing to do it, if nothing else for the sake >of the experiment, since while logic is telling me that the IIISi and >4Si are the same printer except for those boards, I've never actually >tried a swap. The problem is that I would only be able to do it after >I get Peter's 4SiMX in my hands (that's assuming Peter wants to give >it away for free and no one else takes it first), and I don't know >when I'll be in the Bay Area. While having a source of spares for mine >would certainly be nice, I won't make a trip to the Bay Area just for >that. I normally go there twice a year for the Bay Area UFO Expo and >for Conspiracy Con, but the Bay Area UFO Expo just passed two weeks ago >and Conspiracy Con is in May. I don't think Peter would hold the printer >for me for that long. > >> The former is marked as J005, the latter J014. > >These are some kind of test/debug connectors and aren't used in the >field. > >MS > Hi Most likely, he'd be better to remove all the boards and electronics from the 4si and convert to a 4si. The 4si is most likely a mechanical issue with jamming. Of course, if I were to pick the 4si up, I'd convert to a 4si and send him the IIIsi boards from my machine. See how simple that is. Dwight From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 9 18:37:24 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: <200409092300.i89N0tZV017631@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909193544.033302e0@192.168.0.1> Ouch! Teletype ASR33, apparently without platen roller handle or stand (and reader PS?), went for $740. Would like to have one to hear MIKBUG play again, but not that badly. Very nice bidding war though, was anyone else watching? :-) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5120878148&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Ed K From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 17:18:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409090535.BAA02129@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 9, 4 01:17:59 am Message-ID: > > The SX is _very_ modular and comes apart into official FRUs in about > > 10 minutes. > > Actually, so does the IIISi - once you know how. But it's more like > half an hour to 45 minutes if you have no reference and no experience. Yeah, the first time I took an SX apart it took a lot longer than 10 minutes :-) > > Anyway, I believe I've now found the offending bit. > > By the time I got it down to the point where anything more would mean > some pretty major mechanical work - I'd pulled apart all the > obviously-accessible electronics, and anything more is either more > electrical than electronic (eg, motors) or very delicate stuff I am not > about to mess with (eg, the driver circuitry for the laser) - by the > time I reached this point, I'd failed to find anything obviously fried. > > So I put it back together but with one side tipped down, in the hope I > could see something. It's possible to reassemble it electronically > without completely reassembling it physically - in particular, it's > possible to have most of the electronics in view. Yes, it's possible to get most laser printers into a state where all the mechanical stuff is together (and interlocks are closed, etc) but you can still get to the testpoints, etc. I've done this on both the CX and SX... > Then I extracted the relevant PCB and inspected that spot closely. It > appears that an electrolytic cap has sprayed some black substance out > from between the cap and the board, coating everything in the vicinity > (which fortunately is not much - just another similar cap and some > incoming wires). Ouch!. You want to clean that stuff off before it corrodes the traces, etc. I would check all PCB traces and vias in the vicinity of that capacitor for open-circuit problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 17:50:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409091640.AA13155@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Sep 9, 4 04:40:17 pm Message-ID: > The bad news was that it would only print to the rear output slot, and > any attempts to print to the main upper output bin resulted in front > panel error messages about jams. I've called PrinterWorks (great laser > printer gurus, www.printerworks.com) and they advised me to replace the I'll second the recomendation for The PrinterWorks. I've bought spares for my CX and SX printers from them, and they've shipped the right stuff promptly. I've found they sell individual parts for most mechnanical sections, although they recomend swapping out the whole assembly unless you know what you're doing. I don't know what I am doing, but I still change the little bits... > So I went looking for a service manual. Found found on eBay in PDF > on CD, bought it, had to wait for the CD to arrive, then go to Kinko's > and have the PDFs printed. It was a pretty good deal: in addition to > the combined IIISi/4Si service manual from HP (which is what made me > realise that they are the exact same printer), there was also a generic > laser printer repair book that taught a lot of general principles not > specific to any given make or model, and approched things from a rather > Tony Duell-like perspective. OK, my story of laser printer repair (which I am sure I've posted before, but...) I was given a Canon LBP8-A1 (CX engine) that didn't work. I'd never been inside a laser printer before, but 'they can't be that complicated', right ;-)... Anyway, I got the casing off and did some tests on the formatter board (it's in the lid on the CX).It was pretty clear that the ROMs were never being selected (so the 6800 was going crazy), it looked to be a fault in one of the PAL/HAL chips on the board. Contacted Canon, they were no help at all. No spare chips, heck they wouldn't even sell me a board or a service manual (I didn't know about the PrinterWorks back then). Figuring I had nothing to lose, I took the machine totally apart. Even if I couldn't get it working, I might at least learn about the insides. I made lots of notes, diagrams of connections, etc. And then I got a PERQ. Bob Davis told me that a related printer the CX-VDO was used on the PERQ with a sepcial interface card in the PERQ. I managed to locate most of such a card, and the schematics for it. Bob buzzed out his printer's cable, I got the card together and made the cable. But of course I still didn't have the printer. But then I noticed, comparing my notes on the CX and the PERQ cable that the CX-VDO didn't use the formatter board (where the dead PAL was), but that a straight-trhough ribbon with a DC37 socket on one end and a 34 pin header socket on the other, the former to connect to the PERQ cable, the latter to the DC contorller, should do the trick. I made one, put the printer back togther, got it aligned (suprisingly easy -- yes I'd stripped down the optical block as well), and tried it out. No, it didn't work, but it almost did. In particular it did feed a sheet of paper. It did print _something_ -- just a column 16 dots wide. The fault, fortunately was on the PERQ end -- a FIFO wasn't being reloaded. I'd missed out one of the kludgewires on the board. As I had schematics, this wasn't too hard to find. That wasn't quite the end of it. There were a couple of minor mechanical rapairs (had I known about the Printerworks I'd have bought the bits, as it was I had to make brackets, etc) and I ahd to make a new control panel. The LBP8-A1 has a panel with a few switches, a 7-segment display some lEDs, etc that connects to the formatter. The CX-VDO has 5 LEDs connected to the DC controller. Well, I found the header and identified the signals (Bob told me what the LEDs were, they were things like paper-out, so I could see which signal changed state when I frobbed the paper sensor, etc). I took the orignal panel apart, stuck a new label on the front, used 5 of the existing LEDs (which I labelled appropriately), desolded the switches, display, and formatter cable, and fitted a cable to connect to the DC controller. It worked. It still works. Pity I can no longer get toner for it (I am going to have to work out how to refill those cartridges, and what to use). After that, fixing SX printers was almost trivial! > > With the help of the service manual (OK, part swapper guide) I figured > out how to take the sucker apart. I got to the job offset assembly and > took it out for examination. It was dirty with grease, but not in the > paper path, and there wasn't anything obviously wrong with it. I was > hesitant at first about just buying a new job offset assy and trying to > swap it in and see what happens, having heard Prof. Duell's admonitions > against randomly swapping parts. But then I broke down and did it, as Thing about mechanical problems is that you can often observe the unit in opeeration and see what doesn't move when it should (or does move when it shouldn't). > Yes, like just about every laser printer in the world, it's a Canon engine, FWIW, the DEC LN03 (I have one, I think mine is the Postscript model) is not a Canon engine... > and this one is NX. The word engine is a bit misleading: I originally > thought it meant something internal and did not include the outside > appearance of the printer and input/output options like paper trays. > As it turns out, NX engine means not just some inside guts like the > laser or the motor, but the entire printer from plastic covers outside > to the last screw inside is made by Canon. The ONLY HP part in there Not necessarily. The Apple LW and LW2 are CX and SX engines, but the outer cases are different to the normal Canon ones (they may still be made by Canon, but they're not the same). > The NX engine has 300 DPI and 600 DPI versions, and the difference is > only in the DC controller board. Every other part is the same, as are Are the scanners the same? Normally the higher resolution scanner needs to rotate faster (so as to put more lines down in the same time). I know that on the CX engine there was a 415 (!) dpi version and a crystal on the sannner motor PCB [1] needs to be changed. [1] The chips on this board are standard consumer-electronics devices (used in stereos, VCRs, etc). The motor control PLL even has a 33/45 select pin, obviously it's from a record turntable. This helped a lot when sorting out that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 17:25:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094718319.8941.12.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 9, 4 08:25:19 am Message-ID: > > > Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! > > > cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will > > > > Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never need repair? > > That's when you throw it out and get another one, though! (Sorry, > indulging in a bit of "Tony baiting" there ;-) And do you really believe you will always be able to find a machine that can run your simulator? > > On a serious note though, a museum might not have a complete old machine > (of whatever type) - experience is that for the big stuff things tend to > arrive as parts here and there, so often all there is may be a rack with > bits missing, or a console for a mainframe etc. Given the time and resources (OK, I know both are short) you could always do what it done in most clock museums and make/substitute the missing parts only (in the case of clocks, the replacement parts are often marked by being a slgihtly different colour/finish -- they look right at first glance, but you can tall which bits are replacements if you need to). Incidentally, it always impresses me how many clock museums keep their exhibits running (in most cases about 70% of the clocks are still running in my experience). And they're not faked! I would think it was reasonable to run a classic CPU with a modern disk drive _if the original drive was not availale_, provided no permanent changes were made to the classic CPU (for example it would be OK to plug in a recent interface card). > Even then having the original working might not be practical though - > whilst the skills might be there to fix the hardware, the time might not > be. That's all too common at Bletchley; even if I have the skills to fix > items there's only one of me (and sometimes less than that :) - the best There would be a second one of you (well. OK, not quite :-)) if BP had not done all it could to drive me mad. I am not talking about having to keep to a conservation policy (in fact one of my moans is that there was no proper conservation poiicy), it was more things like sometimes being charged to go in, not being able to claim the cost of components (OK, a couple of chips doesn't cost much, but I don't see why _I_ should pay for parts in their machines), the policy of rading fuses, cables, etc from whatever machine was nearest, the fact that I wasn't allowed to look through the documentation, and so on. I gave up, as I have plenty of my own machines to work on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 17:27:31 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: OT(ish) - floppy quality In-Reply-To: <1094721798.9066.3.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 9, 4 09:23:18 am Message-ID: > > > Is anyone else finding that new floppy disks these days tend to be total > crud? I've just chucked yet another one (Sony) in the bin after it Yes, alas.... Floppies are too cheap!. I can remember paying \pounds 3.00 for a 5.25" disk. The thing is, that I can still read the data I stored on said disk. I'd _love_ to be able to pay that sort of amount again, with the assurance that my data would be readable (I can assure you that my data is worth a lot more than 3 quid!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 17:56:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409091822.OAA04513@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 9, 4 01:29:41 pm Message-ID: > Someone was talking abotu the fuser lamp burning out. That is not what > happened to mine; it continued to work as a fuser, but produced ghosts > on the page, as if it picked up some of the toner from the page and > deposited it down next revolution, a few inches further down the page. This normally means you need to change the upper roller (the one with the lamp down the middle). The roller is a lot cheaper than a complete fuser, and it's not that hard to fit (at least not on the CX or SX). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 18:13:52 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <200409092115.RAA06122@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 9, 4 04:43:53 pm Message-ID: > I went to do this, but when I put it all back together and turned it > on, all armed with a voltmeter to check power, when I turned it on one > of the LEDs on the DC controller board came on, something I cannot > recall happening before. So I just let it sit, and darned if it > doesn't work fine - all sprawled all over the table, but working. Ah... Assuming you don't have an intermittant fault. At least on the CX and SX, some failures (particularly fuser overheating) will cause one of the microcontollers on the DC controller to charge a capacitor). This capacitor only discharges when the machine is off (if the microcontroller detects it's charged, it keeps it charged) and takes about 20 minutes to do so (the idea is to ensure the fuser has cooled down, etc). I could tell you what cap it is on the CX or SX, but it wouldn't help you. > No, neither of those. I refer to two sockets on the DC controller > board. One is a two-pin socket in the upper right (looking from the > right side of the printer at the board mounted in place), the rightmost > socket on the top edge of the board; the other is a socket of, if I > counted right, 30 pins in a 2x15 array, on the left edge of the board; The latter might be for a test box (the SX DC contorller has a 20 pin connector for this, it's next to the test button. On the SX, the DC contorller is at the bottom, the text button is accessible through a hole in a plate on the side of the base pan ,if you take the plate off (1 screw) you can plug in the text box). -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 9 19:00:28 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: References: <0409091640.AA13155@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040910000028.GB21254@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 11:50:13PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I'll second the recomendation for The PrinterWorks. I've bought spares > for my CX and SX printers from them, and they've shipped the right stuff > promptly. > > I've found they sell individual parts for most mechnanical sections, > although they recomend swapping out the whole assembly unless you know > what you're doing. I don't know what I am doing, but I still change the > little bits... Me, too... I bought just the aged rubber parts, not the entire transfer roller assembly - took longer to put together, but the rollers are about $7 each... eminently cost effective. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 23:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -38 F (-38.9 C) Windchill -70.90 F (-57.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.2 kts Grid 332 Barometer 671.8 mb (10937. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 9 19:09:29 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409091659.AA13241@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040910000929.GA21337@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:59:37PM +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > the pre-perfed ones that come with the carts are about the size of > > an envelope... > > > > Working out the raw Postscript to define the bizarre page size was the > > hardest part. > > Isn't the print engine fundamentally limited to its fixed set of paper > sizes? This set includes several envelope sizes (3 I believe), but > don't you have to choose one of them? AFAIK, the limit is on the top-end... you are free to tell the engine that you don't want to use the entire width of the mechanism. What you _can't_ do, for example, would be to take, say, an 11"x17" sheet of paper, cut it down to 8.5"x17" and expect to be able to print on the bottom 3" (since most engines do Legal, but not longer). > And what PS code are you talking about? Can you share it? Yes. > Is it Level 1 or Level 2? I stole the technique from a document generated by OOffice... it appears to be Level 2 (I'm printing it with a LJ4050TN at the moment) > Did you really define a page size that is not in the firmware? > How did you do it? If you do << /PageSize [x y] >> setpagedevice > where [x y] is a paper size not known to the firmware, won't it > just barf on you? (Supposed to throw a configurationerror.) That's exactly what I'm doing, and it doesn't barf... % Set the page size for an SDLT insert <> setpagedevice -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 24:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -37.7 F (-38.8 C) Windchill -71.3 F (-57.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17 kts Grid 326 Barometer 671.8 mb (10937. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 9 19:14:50 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909193544.033302e0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909193544.033302e0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Ouch! > > Teletype ASR33, apparently without platen roller handle or stand (and reader > PS?), went for $740. > This is why a lot of folks (including moi - a long-time eBayer) *HATE* eBay... I am tempted, but will resist the urge, to write both the morons that bid the thing up and apprise them of the Average Market Value for a semi-ratty tabletop ASR33 with a bunch of Stuff missing... Of course had it been *my* 33 that I sold for +5X it's worth, I prolly would feel... differently. ;} Cheers John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 19:31:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> > > >>> > > Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never >>> need repair? >>> > >>> > That's when you throw it out and get another one, though! (Sorry, >>> > indulging in a bit of "Tony baiting" there ;-) >>> >>> And do you really believe you will always be able to find a >>> machine that can run your simulator? >>> If not then you find a machine with a simulator, that will simulate the machine that the simulator ran on to simulate the machine. A few years later you.. Find a machine with a simulator that can simulate the machine that simulated the machine that simulated the machine that you wanted.... This repeats until the cat eats the rat that eats the malt that was in the house that Tony built! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 9 19:25:35 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: simh compiled on Mac. Message-ID: Cool downloaded Simh, had to change the BIN dir in the make file, compiled - now amongst others I have an HP2100 simulator. I have downloaded the paper tape basic. what do I do now? I know I need an att mumble basic1 after that I don't know. it would be good to be able to punch my basic programs after I write them... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 19:46:50 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> > Teletype ASR33, apparently without platen roller handle >>> or stand (and reader PS?), went for $740. FYI: At least one oy my teletypes has the reader power supply in the main assembly... >>> This is why a lot of folks (including moi - a long-time >>> eBayer) *HATE* eBay... I am tempted, but will resist the >>> urge, to write both the morons that bid the thing up and >>> apprise them of the Average Market Value for a semi-ratty >>> tabletop ASR33 with a bunch of Stuff missing... >>> >>> >>> Of course had it been *my* 33 that I sold for +5X it's >>> worth, I prolly would feel... differently. >>> Now there is some honest bias... If the price gets high, then the venue is the cause and is evil, unless one is the seller! Makes me wonder how many participants on this list who post anti-ebay sentiments are actually sellers [I know of a few] and freely admit to being an eBay buyer, and seller. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 19:46:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war Message-ID: <200409100046.RAA22942@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Lawson" > > > >On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >> Ouch! >> >> Teletype ASR33, apparently without platen roller handle or stand (and reader >> PS?), went for $740. >> > > > This is why a lot of folks (including moi - a long-time eBayer) *HATE* >eBay... I am tempted, but will resist the urge, to write both the morons >that bid the thing up and apprise them of the Average Market Value for a >semi-ratty tabletop ASR33 with a bunch of Stuff missing... > > > Of course had it been *my* 33 that I sold for +5X it's worth, I prolly >would feel... differently. > > > ;} > Hi John You mean that an obviously broken 33 should sell for $150? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 19:54:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war Message-ID: <200409100054.RAA22950@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" ---snip--- > >Makes me wonder how many participants on this list who post anti-ebay >sentiments are actually sellers [I know of a few] and freely admit to being >an eBay buyer, and seller. > > Hi Knowing the evils of drink doesn't stop me from a little nip every now and then. I treat eBay about the same. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 20:23:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: <200409100046.RAA22942@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >>> You mean that an obviously broken 33 should sell for $150? >>> Dwight When my first ASR-33 arrived with the case shattered, I would most likely have bought a machine in this condition for $150. Since it appears in good shape (other than the missing platten handle), I would say that was a fair (maybe even low) price. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 9 20:24:15 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409100124.AA14443@ivan.Harhan.ORG> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It worked. It still works. Pity I can no longer get toner for it (I am > going to have to work out how to refill those cartridges, and what to > use). Something I've been wondering about too. But what about other parts of the EP cartridge besides the toner, i.e., the photosensitive drum? Doesn't it also have a relatively short life, a little longer than the toner supply but not by much? > Thing about mechanical problems is that you can often observe the unit in > opeeration and see what doesn't move when it should (or does move when it > shouldn't). The problem is that the observed symptoms still don't translate into a fix. Prior to replacing the job offset assembly on my NX, it had the following problem when printing to the main output bin: the paper would feed through perfectly fine, but just as it was beginning to emerge from the last rollers, it would stop and the front panel would indicate a jam. The paper was not jammed, and if pulled out manually the printout was perfect. Obviously it was simply moving a bit too slow, and the DC controller had very little margin in the number of clock cycles allotted for the sheet to clear each sensor, causing it to barf. This much was clear. The problem is, how does one go about fixing it? There was no component I could directly lay the blame on. Replacing the job offset assy fixed it, and while the practical side of me is happy (the new assy was pretty and shining clean, the old one was dirty and ugly to the sight and to the touch), the purist side of me, the part of me that reads your posts and aspires to be more like you, is still quite unhappy about the whole episode, since I never understood WHY replacing the job offset assy fixed the problem, and what exactly was wrong with the old one. > FWIW, the DEC LN03 (I have one, I think mine is the Postscript model) is not > a Canon engine... I suspected that it was one of the rare exceptions, thanks for the confirmation. BTW, am I correct in that LN03R is a pure PostScript printer, i.e., PS ONLY and cannot work like a plain LN03? This would make the LN03R quite different from the later LNs, and that is why I've long felt that only the original LN03 is the real thing and that the later LNs pale in comparison. And the later LNs are based on a Canon engine, and I seem to recall a low-end cheapo one at that... Don't remember what ?X, but I seem to recall it's the same one as in "Personal" LaserJets and LaserWriters. > Are the scanners the same? Normally the higher resolution scanner needs > to rotate faster (so as to put more lines down in the same time). I know > that on the CX engine there was a 415 (!) dpi version and a crystal on > the sannner motor PCB [1] needs to be changed. I thought the same, and the part swapper guide gives different part #s for the IIISi and 4Si Laser/Scanner assemblies. However, a guy here in San Diego who professionally repairs these printers told me that he had swapped all kinds of parts between IIISi and 4Si that you are not officially supposed to swap and it worked; only the formatter and the DC controller are different he claimed. Maybe the scanner assembly has some kind of switch or jumper inside? MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 9 20:33:44 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409100133.SAA22966@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org > >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> It worked. It still works. Pity I can no longer get toner for it (I am >> going to have to work out how to refill those cartridges, and what to >> use). > >Something I've been wondering about too. But what about other parts of >the EP cartridge besides the toner, i.e., the photosensitive drum? >Doesn't it also have a relatively short life, a little longer than the >toner supply but not by much? ---snip--- The drums usually last for two or three loads. The drum was what failed on my last toner. It was a recycled one ( who knows how many times ). Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 9 20:34:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Just Call me Crazy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > I am heading down to South West Florida tomorrow morning [yes I know about > Ivan]. Was wondering if anyone had recommendations of Classic Computer > related (or other interesting) activities in the Cape Coral / Ft. Myers > area. How about heading over to Joe's house and watching all his gear defy gravity and fly around everywhere? :) [Seriously, I doubt you are going to find anyone much interested in sharing the hobby with you at this point in time, considering the circumstances.] -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 9 20:40:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909193544.033302e0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Ouch! > > Teletype ASR33, apparently without platen roller handle or stand (and > reader PS?), went for $740. > > Would like to have one to hear MIKBUG play again, but not that badly. > > Very nice bidding war though, was anyone else watching? :-) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5120878148&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Both eBay newbeez (judging by low feedback numbers). Pfeh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 9 20:44:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Teletype war In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Makes me wonder how many participants on this list who post anti-ebay > sentiments are actually sellers [I know of a few] and freely admit to > being an eBay buyer, and seller. Count me in here. I'll use it when it's to my advantage, but with specific regards to this hobby...well, my views are well known. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 9 20:39:27 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409100124.AA14443@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Sep 10, 4 01:24:15 am Message-ID: > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > It worked. It still works. Pity I can no longer get toner for it (I am > > going to have to work out how to refill those cartridges, and what to > > use). > > Something I've been wondering about too. But what about other parts of > the EP cartridge besides the toner, i.e., the photosensitive drum? > Doesn't it also have a relatively short life, a little longer than the > toner supply but not by much? I think it will last sevreal times the life of the toner in a cartridge. So you might be able ot re-load 3 or 4 times (which would at least keep my PERQ printing a little longer). Dunno what I'll do after that. I suspect (but haven't tried it) that an SX-VDO would work, but those are pretty rare. The VDO printers don't have a formatter board, the external connector (a DC37 socket) connectects to the DC conrtroller (via a little buffer board in the SX) and the host machine controls the laser, etc directly. > > > Thing about mechanical problems is that you can often observe the unit in > > opeeration and see what doesn't move when it should (or does move when it > > shouldn't). > > The problem is that the observed symptoms still don't translate into > a fix. Prior to replacing the job offset assembly on my NX, it had > the following problem when printing to the main output bin: the paper > would feed through perfectly fine, but just as it was beginning to emerge > from the last rollers, it would stop and the front panel would indicate > a jam. The paper was not jammed, and if pulled out manually the printout A jam, of course, simply means that the paper sensors didn't trip at the right times. A particularly nasty-to-trace 'jam' is when one of the paper tray detection switches fails and the printer thinks it's got shorter paper than it has. Of course it then thinks every sheet has jammed... > was perfect. Obviously it was simply moving a bit too slow, and the DC > controller had very little margin in the number of clock cycles allotted > for the sheet to clear each sensor, causing it to barf. This much was > clear. The problem is, how does one go about fixing it? There was no > component I could directly lay the blame on. Are there any driven rollers in the is assembly? Maybe one was slipping so the paper wasn't moving fast enough. I would have tried cleaning and roughing up the rollers a bit -- not a permanent fix, but it might have shown where the problem was. > > FWIW, the DEC LN03 (I have one, I think mine is the Postscript model) is not > > a Canon engine... > > I suspected that it was one of the rare exceptions, thanks for the It's a strange machine -- I think it's a Ricoh engine. The 'drum' is actually a photosensitive belt.... I've also seen another non-Cannon engine, I can't remember who made it. That one did use a drum, but it was totally different to Canon (sepearate toner and drum modules, for example). > confirmation. BTW, am I correct in that LN03R is a pure PostScript > printer, i.e., PS ONLY and cannot work like a plain LN03? This would I beleive so. As you mentioned in an earlier message, some Apple printers are pure postscript (well, there is a Diablo 630 emulation mode, but you get it by DIP switches, so it's not exactly practical). I have an Apple LW2NT on this PC (works great, I've got a little filter which came with my linux distribution to turn text into postscript...) > make the LN03R quite different from the later LNs, and that is why > I've long felt that only the original LN03 is the real thing and that You have almost convinced me to dig out the LN03 sometime and investigate it... > the later LNs pale in comparison. And the later LNs are based on a > Canon engine, and I seem to recall a low-end cheapo one at that... > Don't remember what ?X, but I seem to recall it's the same one as in > "Personal" LaserJets and LaserWriters. LX? If so, it's a horrible bit of machinery :-( > > > Are the scanners the same? Normally the higher resolution scanner needs > > to rotate faster (so as to put more lines down in the same time). I know > > that on the CX engine there was a 415 (!) dpi version and a crystal on > > the sannner motor PCB [1] needs to be changed. > > I thought the same, and the part swapper guide gives different part #s > for the IIISi and 4Si Laser/Scanner assemblies. However, a guy here in > San Diego who professionally repairs these printers told me that he had > swapped all kinds of parts between IIISi and 4Si that you are not > officially supposed to swap and it worked; only the formatter and the > DC controller are different he claimed. Maybe the scanner assembly has > some kind of switch or jumper inside? Maybe the speed is actually controlled by the DC controller board (this is the case on the SX) and the 4SI scanner is designed to run at the higher speed (but will also work at the IIISi speed). And maybe some IIISi scanenrs will go at the faster speed too (a bit like SS .vs. DS floppies :-)). Not having got one of these printers I can't comment any further. -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 9 21:11:12 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: What was I running and can it be emulated? In-Reply-To: <20040909222054.371C83C58@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909211022.0b1c6710@localhost> Hello Al. Shoulda known you'd turn up here. -Tom Peters (Don's friend) At 03:20 PM 9/9/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I think it had Algol and Fortran and Assembly Language as it's >languages. > >-- > >It was probably either DOS-M or an early RTE > >A lot of work has been done recently getting these OSes >running in SIMH, so it should be possible. I don't know >if Bob has put bootable disc images up for them yet, though. > >I have all of the manuals scanned, but not on line yet for >these two systems. [Sex] From the desert I come to thee,- On a stallion shod with fire; And the winds are left behind In the speed of my desire. --Bayard Taylor (1825-1878) Bedouin Song --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 9 21:31:50 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: What was I running and can it be emulated? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909211022.0b1c6710@localhost> Message-ID: >>> [Sex] From the desert I come to thee,- On a stallion shod >>> with fire; And the winds are left behind In the speed of my >>> desire. --Bayard Taylor (1825-1878) Bedouin Song IMHO - Sex is best run in native mode and should not be simulated or emulated. [attempting to associate message body with subject line] From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 9 21:23:44 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: DEC Storageworks BA356 questions In-Reply-To: <20040909212050.GA3776@bos7.spole.gov> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> <56817.67.36.83.25.1094680143.squirrel@67.36.83.25> <5.1.0.14.2.20040909090547.0b372c90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040909211850.00b3bc50@localhost> Thanks for the additional info. At 09:20 PM 9/9/2004 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:08:58AM -0500, Tom Peters wrote: > > Not knowing, I plugged the outside (on the end) scsi connection into a > > AHA-2940 and was able to see the drive (only had one handy) I had put > > inside. But later it did something twitchy, like complaining it could no > > longer WRITE to the drive, although reading seemed ok. I didn't care so > > much, it was just a basic test. > >Hmm... that seems odd... does the drive still work if you pull it from the >canister and hook it up to a controller in a more traditional arrangement? This is believe was after monkeying with the dip switches. Good show I wrote down how they were set before I tampered with them, eh? Drive still works elsewhere and didn't have time to check into this further. >I have a BA-356 at home attached to a SPARC5 - I literally just loaded up >a few canisters, hooked the cable to a free SCSI port, and all the drives >just showed up. No voodoo. Between the backplane of the BA-356 and the >personality module, things should just be "taken care of". I have some Compaq RAID controllers -- SmartArray 2H I think -- that work famously with any old stack of SCSI drives, from 3 to 15, and does various flavors of RAID. Might be the ticket. >IIRC, the reason for picking one SCSI connector over the other on the >personality module has to do with auto-termination. I don't recall >which one I have (it's 12,000 miles away), but mine came with the >wrong variety of SCSI cable (the host end was high-density connector >that's common to ultra-modern adapters, not found on vintage equipment), Mine came with no cables at all, so I'm cooking it all up on my own. >Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Sep-2004 21:10 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -36.3 F (-38.0 C) Windchill -67.09 F (-55.1 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 14.3 kts Grid 315 Barometer 672.9 mb (10896. ft) > >Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html [Philosophy] Power does not corrupt. Fear corrupts, perhaps the fear of a loss of power. ---John Steinbeck --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 9 21:56:52 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... References: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00a701c496e1$d3a43aa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > I know either one would probably be a good investment but what is the > advantage of one over the other? I can't answer on the former, as I don't have that model. Fairly recently I purchased a WES51. It's the nicest iron I've ever owned and I'm extremely happy with it. I believe I paid $70 and some change for it, brand new. I have also heard many folks touting metcal units. I suspect a used metcal or new WES51 (hard to afford a new metcal I seem to recall) would serve quite well. In this particular case, unlike most other efforts of mine computing related, I would prefer a brand new unit. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 9 22:37:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: 2100 at smecc References: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net><013801c4961e$c866ebb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <009b01c49623$0af3fb40$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <00b301c496e7$8e4a43e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > hi jay need a drive 2883 or a controller and a 79xx drive(s) At least in my world, 2883's are unobtanium. I will check how many 7900's I have. If I have enough after refurbing them all, I can trade you a 7900A drive. A 13210 controller may be more difficult. There's a catch though - I'd rather not send a pristine 7900A that I spent a hundred hours refurbishing into a non-working environment. Let's get the other processors and peripherals working first. Once they fly, then we'll talk about a drive. By the way, you DO know you can use a 7905, or a 7906A,B,C,D don't you? The latter are common as dirt it seems. > will have to fire up the processors and see what happens there... You will need a diagnostic library. There's quite a few you'd need to pass, and at least two that should be run for an extended period. If you don't have a diag lib, contact me off-list and I'll get you one on any of several media. If it was me, I'd do some serious inspection if they haven't been powered up in years. At the very least pull all cards, progold the edge connectors and backplane sockets, check the power supply (there's a simple adjustment procedure). To check the power supply you need a single board in - I think it was the IDL board, have to check. To adjust the 20v memory supply you need the machine to warm up and the setting is based on a temperature chart. I'd also check the backplane wirewrapping for damage, bent pins, etc. The last thing you want to do is just hit the power switch and pray. You may loose a set of processor cards and those aren't easy to get. > if I was > to run this system I would want a good stash of 2100s on hand... You definitely don't need a "stash of 2100's" to run a system regularly. At least in my experience, the 2100's dont fail often, once you get one running well. Most common failure is an XY driver board or DC board. Get your two cpu's running well, then get one spare cpu set, and a couple spare memory boards. You should be set with that. > do you have any extra? Not yet, maybe in the future. But don't you already have two? Let's spend the time to get your existing ones working first. Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 9 23:29:56 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Printer help? In-Reply-To: <0409092234.AA14133@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409092234.AA14133@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200409100435.AAA20106@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> However, the selftest button does not work; as far as I can tell it >> does nothing at all. I even tried holding it in for some 15-20 >> seconds and it still did nothing [...] > Now this is weird, I have no explanation for it. It's supposed to > continuously print pages of vertical lines for as long as the switch > is down. Perhaps one of the damaged PCB traces went to this switch? I suppose it could be, but the damage is off in a corner far away from anything else, and most definitely on any even vaguely direct route between that button and anything. It would take an almost deliberately perverse PCB layout for an etch run carrying that signal to have been hit by the damage. (If we normalize coordinates with (0,0) at the lower left and (1,1) at the upper right, the test switch is at perhaps (.05,.333) and the damage is at something like (.9,.07). The whole triangle (1,0)-(1,.4)-(.6,0)-(1,0) contains nothing that looks like logic to me, except perhaps a few discrete transistors.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 10 00:05:40 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <200409100005.40175.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'd like to publically announce yet another mirror Al Kossow's Bitsavers PDF archive, that is now up at: http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/ There is also a link to it from the home page of the website. I've got "pretty good" connectivity on that machine - it has a 100MBps connection to a network that has a 10Gbps uplink to the Internet and Internet2. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hansp at citem.org Fri Sep 10 01:23:50 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41414876.9050007@citem.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Sorry, but I object to technical museums that present replicas (and > emulators hidden inside the case of an older machine, and...) as the real > thing. You would not accept an art gallery that showed copies of the > famous paintings, you shouldn't accept it for computers either. > > If I go to a museum it's because I want to see the real machine -- one I > don't happen to already have. I don't want to see a fake. I agree with you that the representation of a replica as an original is reprehensible. But, if the choice is a replica or nothing? I am thinking of Sellams PDP-1 replica in Tokyo, by all accounts they tried but could not secure an original, so they did the next best thing. In any case had they succeeded in getting an original it would not have been able to run any software so in some sense the replica could be considered "better". I would sincerely hope that do not represent Sellams work as an original PDP-1, there again it is original in the other sense of the word ;-) Another example : the baby machine in Manchester. It also a replica, built with original components where those could be found. It is not represented as an original, but as a reconstruction. I think that, properly represented, replicas do have a place in a museum. They allow the demonstration of working machines where the originals are too far gone to continue functioning. Regards, -- HansP > > -tony > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 10 04:36:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: <1094682594.5953.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > The problem is I'm trying to get a system working with several different > > old MO drives (Maxoptix Tahiti 1, Pinnacle Micro REO-650/1300, Sony > > ). The Maxoptix is not even being recongized, and may > > well be dead dead dead. The Pinnacle is being recognized but I'm getting > > the errors mentioned. The Sony drive gets recognized OK and the system > > boots but then I get a bizarre message in the Adaptec BIOS that says it's > > not a disk drive(!) Well then what is it? It's a Macinstor drive (ugh, > > can't think...forgot who the manufacturer is). > > ARG! I played with all of these (and continually cursed the day I first > had to deal with them) while I was developing SCSI stuff at IBM. > > When I delt with the Tahiti-1 it had continuous microcode updates and > the optical cartidges were not compatible with anyone else's. I think my Tahiti 1 is dead. I tried the other drives on a PCI-based PC (running Win2K) and they were recognized, but I still couldn't read the target disk. It's a Pioneer DC-502a Write-Once disk. I was hoping one of these drives would be able to read it. I have a WORM drive but it's physically incompatible with this disk. Thanks for the help nonetheless. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 10 04:38:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Having problems with SCSI MO drives In-Reply-To: <413FCAB2.B7DBA5AE@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I have used both Pinnacle Micro REO-650 and Sony SMO S-501 > drives at the same time on the same daisy chain. In general, I rarely > have difficulty when there are multiple Sony drives on the SCSI bus. I was able to get both onto the same chain successfully on the PCI-based system with Win2K. > However, the Pinnacle REO drives are probably NOT cabled correctly > since they usually are a problem, especially when the Pinnacle MO > drive is the first in the chain. If you look inside the box, my experience > has been that the centronics 50-pin connectors are NOT at the ends > of the cable connected to the drive; with my Pinnacle REO-650 drive, > the drive is at the END of the cable and one of the 50-pin centronics > connectors is connected to the middle. While this configuration does > not always cause a problem, even when there are just 2 MO drives > (including 1 Pinnacle REO-650 drive), at this point, I ALWAYS avoid > using any Pinnacle REO-650 drives UNLESS it is just ONE drive on > the SCSI daisy chain. I didn't have a problem plugging them in as normal. > Sellam, does this information help? It didn't help directly, but the tips were useful and I appreciate them :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 10 04:43:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <41414876.9050007@citem.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > I am thinking of Sellams PDP-1 replica in Tokyo, by all accounts they > tried but could not secure an original, so they did the next best thing. Oh yes, they tried. They went to amazing lengths in fact. > In any case had they succeeded in getting an original it would not have > been able to run any software so in some sense the replica could be > considered "better". I would sincerely hope that do not represent > Sellams work as an original PDP-1, there again it is original in the > other sense of the word ;-) They clearly mark it as a replica on the accompanying plaque (and give me credit to boot :) I would agree here that it was "better" than the real thing since the users could actually see it working in a reasonable facsimilation (I made up that word). > I think that, properly represented, replicas do have a place in a > museum. They allow the demonstration of working machines where the > originals are too far gone to continue functioning. I totally agree. In most cases it's entirely impractible to have the actual machines working. Too bad all the museums in the world don't have their own Tony (or at least appreciate him when they do have him). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 10 05:06:43 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094810803.10591.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 23:25 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yes we are planning on having the hp 2000 emulator! > > > > cheaper to have tsb this way compared to running the whole system which will > > > > > > Whereas the machine that runs the emulator will never need repair? > > > > That's when you throw it out and get another one, though! (Sorry, > > indulging in a bit of "Tony baiting" there ;-) > > And do you really believe you will always be able to find a machine that > can run your simulator? Someone else beat me to it with the idea of simulating the simulator :-) My approach is generally: 1) Fix the original if time permits 2) Simulate the original using what of the original is available - but without making mods to the original equipment such that 1) is out of the question at a later date. 3) Simulate the original on completely modern hardware (ala xmess etc.) Note that I don't particularly like step 3 at all, and that there should really be a step 0.5 which is "realise that I don't have enough time to do any of it" :-) > Incidentally, it always impresses me how many clock museums keep their > exhibits running (in most cases about 70% of the clocks are still running > in my experience). And they're not faked! Yep, I always places like that. I'm not sure why the parallel doesn't happen for computer collections (I mean, sure, we get an awful lot of broken donations, but even so) > There would be a second one of you (well. OK, not quite :-)) if BP had > not done all it could to drive me mad. I am not talking about having to > keep to a conservation policy (in fact one of my moans is that there was > no proper conservation poiicy), it was more things like sometimes being > charged to go in, not being able to claim the cost of components (OK, a > couple of chips doesn't cost much, but I don't see why _I_ should pay for > parts in their machines), the policy of rading fuses, cables, etc from > whatever machine was nearest, the fact that I wasn't allowed to look > through the documentation, and so on. Actually on that front it's not so bad as it was when you were there - I've been having a good sort-out of the office, D Block etc. so it's much easier to find what you want when needed than it was when I first started going there! We've sort-of got an arrangement on travel expenses now (after much arguing!) which is certainly a bonus. Cambridge uni kindly threw a couple of rack-mount PC servers my way last week with a whole pile of RAID storage, so I should at least have a decent platform to keep disk / rom images, electronic documentation etc. on now. I could do with rustling up a DLT drive from somewhere soonish though for tape backup. There's not much fixing of hardware going on at present, but then of the exhibits in the museum room itself nearly everything's operational so sorting out the stores and the like seemed a more sensible thing to do! Components expenses I haven't figured out yet - but then I keep on unearthing piles of components over in D Block so if I can get organised over there we probably have replacement ICs and the like in a lot of cases! seeya, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 10 05:09:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094810945.10591.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-10 at 02:43 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Too bad all the museums in the world don't have > their own Tony (or at least appreciate him when they do have him). We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Sep 10 05:20:45 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Talking of museums ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c4971f$d557d4e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> The Science Museum in London (England) is arranging a series of tours of its storerooms of items not normally on display. see: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/ingenioustours.asp The one on March the 16th next year is on the computing collection >From valves to chips: the rise of British computing with Tilly Blyth Wednesday 16 March 2005, 14:00 - 15:30 Britain has always played an important role in the development of computing technology. This tour will take you from an era when computers occupied whole rooms and Britain was at the forefront of computer research, to a new generation of programmers created by personal computers such as the BBC Micro and the Sinclair. An hour and a half isn't much time for this but it could well be interesting. I hope I've booked a place on this, but I haven't had confirmation yet. Andy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 10 07:39:29 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? Message-ID: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone know if there's a decompression util for Linux that can handle MSDOS 6.22 compressed files? I need a decompressed version of emm386.ex_ ... The only one I've found (so far) is called msexpand - but (helpfully) it supports every version of MSDOS ever apart from 6.22 :-( Unfortunately I'm surrounded by Linux machines right now and nothing with a hard disk onto which I can install DOS - and I don't think I can boot DOS 6.22 from floppies and tell expand to decompress a file into memory, let me change floppies to the one I want the expanded version on, and then write it out... :-) If it comes to it I can dig my old 486 laptop out of storage as I think that wound up with 6.22 on it - just a pain though! ta Jules From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 08:17:47 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Talking of museums ... In-Reply-To: <001501c4971f$d557d4e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <001501c4971f$d557d4e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <4141A97B.8020104@frixxon.co.uk> Andy Holt wrote: > The Science Museum in London (England) is arranging a series of tours of its > storerooms of items not normally on display. see: > > http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/collections/ingenioustours.asp > > The one on March the 16th next year is on the computing collection Thanks for the heads-up, Andy. You might find the length of the tour depends on our ability to keep the curator talking. I've just tried to book a place as well. Wear a carnation and carry a copy of "On Computable Numbers". -- Paul From classiccmp at eco.li Fri Sep 10 08:24:59 2004 From: classiccmp at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? In-Reply-To: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040910132459.GA32444@hades.eco.li> On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 12:39:29PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if there's a decompression util for Linux that can > handle MSDOS 6.22 compressed files? I need a decompressed version of > emm386.ex_ ... > > The only one I've found (so far) is called msexpand - but (helpfully) it > supports every version of MSDOS ever apart from 6.22 :-( > > Unfortunately I'm surrounded by Linux machines right now and nothing > with a hard disk onto which I can install DOS - and I don't think I can > boot DOS 6.22 from floppies and tell expand to decompress a file into > memory, let me change floppies to the one I want the expanded version > on, and then write it out... :-) Would it work to use FreeDOS and DOSEMU? I think you can even get images that are pre-installed with FreeDOS so you won't need to go through the installation process. Dan -- To get something done, a committee should consist of no more than three men, two of them absent. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 08:23:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909142205.03307ff0@192.168.0.1> References: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910092353.00a97730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks Ed. But I'm going to stick it out here. I need to be here in case we lose a roof or anything so that I can try and protect all the toys that I have. But I'm planning on going up to Parris Island around Halloween to see my youngest kid graduate from boot camp. Maybe I can come over for a visit for a day. Joe At 02:28 PM 9/9/04 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:03 PM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >> Yes, the surplus Gods have smiled on me :-) But I may have to sacrifice >>one (or more?) to appease the hurricane Gods. Ivan is on it's way here and >>it's a humdinger! > >Once is chance, > twice is coincidence, > three times is enemy action. > >And some don't believe in coincidence. :-) > >Supposed to be over your place Tuesday. > >If you have to head north, you and yours have a place here in South >Carolina anytime you want it. >Big house with basement and just sent the last puppy off to college. >Bring your M1's and we'll go out to the range. >Got a can of GI .30-06 en bloc from a guy for fixing his computer we can use. > >Best wishes, > >Ed Kelleher >Columbia, SC >803-796-8858 > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 08:36:57 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909152547.033885e8@192.168.0.1> References: <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910093657.00a97870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:29 PM 9/9/04 -0400, Ed wrote: >At 02:03 PM 9/9/2004, you Joe R: >>The central pressure is down to 920 millibars. I think that may >>be a record low pressure. Does anyone know? > >Hugo that hit SC in 1989 had 918mb, we were without power for about a week >http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at198908.asp > >Camille that hit Louisiana in 1969 had 905mb, 190MPH winds. >http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at196903.asp That's a nice site (but lots of pop-ups). I'll have to bookmark it and save it for future reference. I looked up the great Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 of in and found that the central pressure was >>> 892 <<< Millibars. I should tell you about my adventures during hurricane Camille sometime. I was in a off-raod race that day and it turned into a REAL adventure. We weren't expecting any significant effects from Camille but the rain that we got can only be called Biblical! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 08:45:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:03 2005 Subject: Just Call me Crazy... References: <200409092016.NAA22803@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910094514.022ffcb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:32 PM 9/9/04 -0400, you wrote: > All, > >I am heading down to South West Florida tomorrow morning [yes I know about >Ivan]. Was wondering if anyone had recommendations of Classic Computer >related (or other interesting) activities in the Cape Coral / Ft. Myers >area. You might try to contact one of the x-CC list members that lives in that area. He name was Phil and he collected portable computers. I don't remember his last name but he lived near Ft. Meyers and his E-mail handle was musicman138 or something close to that. Ah, Found it. "Musicman38" Joe From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 10 08:55:29 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Weller Soldering Stations... In-Reply-To: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> References: <200409091945.PAA15659@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200409100855.29987.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Thursday 09 September 2004 2:45 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > Which to buy? I am looking at two different ones - The WTCPT which you > have to buy different tips to control temperature or the WES51 which has > adjustabel temperatur control and is a little cheaper. I have a WES51, and I like it very much. > > I know either one would probably be a good investment but what is the > advantage of one over the other? > > Thanks!, > > Bryan Pope -- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Sep 10 09:02:09 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040910093657.00a97870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909152547.033885e8@192.168.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20040909140326.00945de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <413F3C4D.5090506@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907131630.0094f6e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040907175333.008d66a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122220.009724d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040910095926.031a3d58@192.168.0.1> At 09:36 AM 9/10/2004, you wrote: > That's a nice site (but lots of pop-ups). Sorry, I'm using Mozilla, ZoneAlarm and AdWatch and just don't see any pop-ups. Been using F-Prot anti-virus since the DOS days of Stoned and NYC. Funny they don't get any press. I think they're the best of the lot and I can run it from my bootable utility CD. Ed K. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 10 09:34:54 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? In-Reply-To: <18199166.1094821476263.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <18199166.1094821476263.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1094826894.10607.48.camel@weka.localdomain> Thanks to both Steve and Fred for sending copies - all working happily now! (Now I'm just waiting for the machine to format the 22 SCSI drives hooked up to it :) cheers! Jules From wpointon at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 11:00:34 2004 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (william pointon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: hurricanes - was Re: Just Call me Crazy... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040910094514.022ffcb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <8C9D959F-0342-11D9-A815-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> hi - hope everyone is ok - especially in fla where we got pounded on the east coast by francis and another storm is coming to the west coast - been without power a week and have a temp portable generator for now anyway - take care - billp On Friday, Sep 10, 2004, at 09:45 US/Eastern, Joe R. wrote: > At 04:32 PM 9/9/04 -0400, you wrote: >> All, >> >> I am heading down to South West Florida tomorrow morning [yes I know >> about >> Ivan]. Was wondering if anyone had recommendations of Classic Computer >> related (or other interesting) activities in the Cape Coral / Ft. >> Myers >> area. > > > You might try to contact one of the x-CC list members that lives in > that area. He name was Phil and he collected portable computers. I > don't > remember his last name but he lived near Ft. Meyers and his E-mail > handle > was musicman138 or something close to that. > > Ah, Found it. "Musicman38" > > Joe > From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Sep 10 11:48:16 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Floppy drives for the Tarbell floppy controller Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEB45@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Hi: What were the specs of the floppy drives used with the Tarbell S100 floppy controller? I may be getting one without the drives. Thanks. Rich From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 10 12:00:31 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: hurricanes - was Re: Just Call me Crazy... In-Reply-To: <8C9D959F-0342-11D9-A815-003065ED7126@earthlink.net> Message-ID: To all that have taken a pounding in the recent storms. I just want to clarify that my actual reason for hjeading down to Fla at this point in time is to spend some time with my Son, Daughter-In-Law, GrandKids [all who made it through Charlie without serious damage] and Mom [who only had minor flooding from Francis]. I was being rather tongue-in-cheek about Ivan, but I do realize the severity of the storm, and hope every one remains safe if not dry. My connectivity will be sporatic until I return to NY [baring any storm induced delays] on Tuesday evening. David From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Sep 10 12:12:41 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing Message-ID: Sellam wrote >Too bad all the museums in the world don't have their own Tony (or at least appreciate him when they do have him). There is a company in Texas offering to clone a favored pet. Maybe they could have them clone Tony. Who shall we get to take a tissue sample from him? I'll donate $50 towards the cost of a clone. Actually if we were smart we could have them produce a series of clones every few years. Nominations for cloning, in no special order Donald Knuth Richard Feynman Mike From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Sep 10 12:27:42 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Tony simulator Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote >We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) When I first read this I read "We need a Tony Stimulator" I really wondered for a second. Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 10 12:50:41 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <200409100005.40175.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200409100005.40175.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200409101250.41064.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 10 September 2004 00:05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'd like to publically announce yet another mirror Al Kossow's > Bitsavers PDF archive, that is now up at: > > http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/ > > There is also a link to it from the home page of the website. > > I've got "pretty good" connectivity on that machine - it has a > 100MBps connection to a network that has a 10Gbps uplink to the > Internet and Internet2. For anyone interested, I now have the archive also available via anonymous ftp from computer-refuge.org:/bitsavers , and I changed the Apache options so you could see the entire filenames in directory indices, as suggested by a list member. I update nightly from Al's site, so if anyone wants to run a mirror off of me, let me know; I don't mind being a redistribution point, so that Al's bandwith isn't killed by mirrors. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 10 13:51:56 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Tony simulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike McFadden wrote > Jules Richardson wrote > >We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) > When I first read this I read "We need a Tony Stimulator" Just ask a good question about interesting hardware. Works every time! ;-) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 10 13:53:02 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux?" (Sep 10, 12:39) References: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10409101953.ZM20832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 10 2004, 12:39, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if there's a decompression util for Linux that can > handle MSDOS 6.22 compressed files? [ ... ] > Unfortunately I'm surrounded by Linux machines right now and nothing > with a hard disk onto which I can install DOS - and I don't think I can > boot DOS 6.22 from floppies and tell expand to decompress a file into > memory, let me change floppies to the one I want the expanded version > on, and then write it out... :-) I know you've got it sorted now, but if it ever happens again, remember that on a single-floppy machine, DOS will prompt you to change the disk in the floppy drive if you refer to it as B: instead of A: (and then prompt you to change back when appropriate). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 14:45:23 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: References: <41414876.9050007@citem.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040910153831.04aced00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >They clearly mark it as a replica on the accompanying plaque (and give me >credit to boot :) I would agree here that it was "better" than the real >thing since the users could actually see it working in a reasonable >facsimilation (I made up that word). When? Google's already got 563 hits for it, there's a webmag there (split between Florida and BC, Canada)... ... Altho google did ask me: "Did you mean: fasciculation?" ;-) =-=-= Or are you just looking to patent it, a la M$ patenting using a tab key in a browser, or somesuch? :-P >Hans said: > > I think that, properly represented, replicas do have a place in a > > museum. They allow the demonstration of working machines where the > > originals are too far gone to continue functioning. Or - if even they *could* be brought back to life for a short time, if it would break them in such a way to make it harder yet to restore, IMHO it's best to say point to the original and say "This is the original, in as good of shape as we could get." Then point to the replica and say "If this machine could run without damage, things it would do would look like what we display on this replica." >I totally agree. In most cases it's entirely impractible to have the >actual machines working. Right. I'd much rather see a working replica next to a nearly working original, compared to a pile of rubble with a sign: "This is what happened when we tried to run this" and an irreplaceable machine destroyed forever. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 10 16:58:37 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094810803.10591.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004c01c49781$53a05b90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Incidentally, it always impresses me how many clock museums > keep their exhibits running (in most cases about 70% of the clocks are > still running in my experience). And they're not faked! This is good, but a clock usually costs less to run than a computer (and a lot less to run than an *old* computer). There are also many more people willing and/or able to sit down and understand a clock than there seem to be who are willing/able to do the same for electronics. My clock experience is limited to one modern mechanical alarm clock and one electro-mechanical clock/radio/alarm thing. Both had mechanical problems, both came apart (given a little time and effort) and both went back together and worked. Plus there was not much difference between them (at least in principle, at least to the depth that mattered in getting them functional again). Computers seem to vary much more in design and have evloved quite considerably. There is also plenty that, potentially at least, you cannot tell just by looking. (PALs, ASICs, custom parts, parts for which you have no datasheet etc.). So it is certainly impressive that a clock museum can keep many clock operational; but I doubt that any sort of computer museum would have the resources available to do that for old computers. It is possible to build your own valves, but is it possible to build a replacement valve for a specific (but now unobtainable) valve for some old mainframe? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 10 17:33:27 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040910153831.04aced00@mail.30below.com> References: <41414876.9050007@citem.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040910153831.04aced00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <41422BB7.4020501@mdrconsult.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > =-=-= > > Or are you just looking to patent it, a la M$ patenting using a tab key > in a browser, or somesuch? :-P Or the patent they were just awarded on setuid and sudo operations? http://tinyurl.com/3khqm Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 10 17:37:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? In-Reply-To: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040910152637.C62926@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Unfortunately I'm surrounded by Linux machines right now and nothing > with a hard disk onto which I can install DOS - and I don't think I can > boot DOS 6.22 from floppies and tell expand to decompress a file into > memory, let me change floppies to the one I want the expanded version > on, and then write it out... :-) Yes, you can! You can boot 6.x from floppy, even though the INSTALL dementedly insists on installing onto C: - MICROS~1 response to those who wanted 6.00 on a different drive (my C: was a 3", D: was 3.25", and my harddrive was E:) was "install it on C: and then COPY it to another disk by FORMAT x: /S and then copy the files". Once you have a bootable 6.22 floppy, you have two fairly straightforward ways to do it. 1) give the command to expand as if you had a floppy in B: DOS will then expand to the phantom B: drive, by asking you to put the B: disk into drive A:, then the A: disk in drive A:, then the B: disk in drive A:, then the A: disk in drive A:, then the B: disk in drive A:, then the A: disk in drive A:, etc. This would be a VERY good time to write protect the disk that you are not going to write to! 2) setup a RAMDISK. You can boot from a floppy with the RAMDISK software invoked in CONFIG.SYS Then you can use RAM as an additional drive, and do your work in it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 08:51:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatso In-Reply-To: <006c01c495b9$b0388900$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> References: <10409080841.ZM18334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <005201c495b7$88175200$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910095139.0093b720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > >> "Pure >> mercury sulphide used to be used as vermilion pigment (which may >> explain something about some artists)". >> >> Yes... other pigments got them too! but in the case of old 'one ear >> Vincent you also can mix in syphilis and also drinking absinth ( had word >> wood in it goggle this for more info). >> >> the painters life was full of toxins and infection! And let's not forget Paris Green! (Copper Arsenate). It's a beautiful green pigment. Also extremely toxic. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 09:01:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any merit In-Reply-To: References: <200409072354.QAA21013@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910100154.0093b9c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:40 PM 9/7/04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> Telescope makers use it to make small "pin holes" in photo graphic >> plates and film. You smash some and it makes hundreds of tiny specs >> that are almost perfectly spherical. These cast shadows on the the >> photo material. The film that is exposed turns dark, leaving the >> tiny clear spots. One simple mask off the ones that are not used. > >One interesting place mercury is used is in near-frictionless >bearings. Gyrocompasses from World War 2 That reminds me, submarines used to (or still?) use mercury as ballast. They used mercury since it could be pumped fore and aft or side to side to get the proper balance. I know a guy that bought on old sub for scrap and it contained something like 5,000 or 10,000 pounds of mercury and a HUGE amount of lead (in the lead acid batteries). He bought the boat for something like $1000 and sold it for about $115,000!! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 10 08:48:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Wrong reply In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040909124536.033350a0@192.168.0.1> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040910094852.0093a430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:49 PM 9/9/04 -0400, you wrote: >At 12:42 PM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >> >>> >> >>> We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussions >> >>> of Mercury, Guns, Carburettors, and Sellam's State of Mind. >> >>> >> >>The first three I understand... The final item is totally imponderable > >Not so hard to ponder; >It really reduces quite nicely: >As an anarchist Sellam has no State, >which is a perfect match for that other thing he lacks. > >:-) > >Ed Kelleher ROFL!!! Good one Ed! Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 10 18:25:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040910153831.04aced00@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >They clearly mark it as a replica on the accompanying plaque (and give me > >credit to boot :) I would agree here that it was "better" than the real > >thing since the users could actually see it working in a reasonable > >facsimilation (I made up that word). > > When? Google's already got 563 hits for it, there's a webmag there (split > between Florida and BC, Canada)... I don't know. I use Merriam-Webster's Online, which has slowly degraded over time in terms of good results since they want you to pay for better access I guess. At any rate, they didn't have that form of the word, though it seems perfectly valid to me. > Or are you just looking to patent it, a la M$ patenting using a tab key in > a browser, or somesuch? :-P Well, if there's money to be made then sure :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 17:48:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <41414876.9050007@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Sep 10, 4 08:23:50 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sorry, but I object to technical museums that present replicas (and > > emulators hidden inside the case of an older machine, and...) as the real > > thing. You would not accept an art gallery that showed copies of the > > famous paintings, you shouldn't accept it for computers either. > > > > If I go to a museum it's because I want to see the real machine -- one I > > don't happen to already have. I don't want to see a fake. > > I agree with you that the representation of a replica as an original is > reprehensible. But, if the choice is a replica or nothing? > > I am thinking of Sellams PDP-1 replica in Tokyo, by all accounts they I don't think I'd call that a replica. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was based on a PC running an emulator. To me a replica of a PDP1 would be a machine built as far as possible to the original schematics (using more modern components if appropriate, like more common tranasistors). But IMHO even the PSU should be built to the original design. I have no problem with true replicas _provided they're identified as such_. But I don't think I really approve of museums showing emulators running on PCs (mainly because I could run those if I wanted to at home, I guess). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 17:55:01 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <1094810803.10591.17.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 10, 4 10:06:43 am Message-ID: > > > Incidentally, it always impresses me how many clock museums keep their > > exhibits running (in most cases about 70% of the clocks are still running > > in my experience). And they're not faked! > > Yep, I always places like that. I'm not sure why the parallel doesn't > happen for computer collections (I mean, sure, we get an awful lot of Nor do I. It should! > broken donations, but even so) Yes, but consider the Salisbury clock (the oldest mechanical clock in England, if not the world). It was found about 70 years ago up the catherdral tower, with many bits missing (it had been conveted from foliot balance to pendulum at some time around 1700, but not all of that conversion was there either). It has now been restored and is running again, with the foliot. Obviously quite a few parts are replacements (they're slightly green in colour so you can tell which bits are not original if you look closely), but equally quite a few parts are original (and around 700 years old). Now restoring that took a long time (10s of years IIRC), and I guess you'd not want to spend that amount of time on a classic computer. But they don't seem to be too worried about further damage being done by running it. > > > There would be a second one of you (well. OK, not quite :-)) if BP had > > not done all it could to drive me mad. I am not talking about having to [...] > Actually on that front it's not so bad as it was when you were there - Sorry, I've had my fill of BP, enough to last me a lifetime... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 17:55:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <1094810945.10591.20.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 10, 4 10:09:05 am Message-ID: > We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) Now that _is_ a scary thought... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 17:57:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Sep 10, 4 12:12:41 pm Message-ID: > > Sellam wrote > >Too bad all the museums in the world don't have their own Tony (or at > least appreciate him when they do have him). > > There is a company in Texas offering to clone a favored pet. Maybe they > could have them clone Tony. Who shall we get to take a tissue sample Yeah, but surely a tissue sample would only give you the contents of my bootstrap firmware. You want the contents of my volatile memory too, surely.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 17:59:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Tony simulator In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Sep 10, 4 12:27:42 pm Message-ID: > > Jules Richardson wrote > > >We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) > > When I first read this I read "We need a Tony Stimulator" Certain English phrases work well for that : 'Do you know they are giving away free classic computers?' 'Do you have a scheamtic for a ' 'How do I fix ' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 18:08:40 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <004c01c49781$53a05b90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Sep 10, 4 10:58:37 pm Message-ID: > > > > Incidentally, it always impresses me how many clock museums > > keep their exhibits running (in most cases about 70% of the clocks are > > > still running in my experience). And they're not faked! > > This is good, but a clock usually costs less to run than > a computer (and a lot less to run than an *old* computer). Possibly... On the other hand PCs aren't _free_ to run either, > > There are also many more people willing and/or able to > sit down and understand a clock than there seem to be > who are willing/able to do the same for electronics. This I don't understnad. Classic computers (at least not any one I've worked on) are not that hard to understand. And if I can do it, anyone can! Problem is that nobody seems to _want_ to understand electronics any more (and this worries me a lot!). > > My clock experience is limited to one modern mechanical > alarm clock and one electro-mechanical clock/radio/alarm > thing. Both had mechanical problems, both came apart > (given a little time and effort) and both went back > together and worked. Plus there was not much difference > between them (at least in principle, at least to the > depth that mattered in getting them functional again). OK, let's see how you'd get on doing jobs like Bushing a plate hole (this is suprisinging difficult the first time, the wear on the hole is uneven in general so the centre of a worn hole is _not_ where the centre of the bush should go). Calulating the number of teeth on a wheel and pinion if one of the arbors is missing. Re-pivoting an arbor Cutting a wheel (that's a gear for the non-horologists, I mean using a dividing head to cut the teeth), then crossing it out (cutting the metal out between the spokes) Determining the correct dimensions, then making, a set of pallets. And so on. There are simple clock repairs, there are difficult ones. Much like computer repairs. > > Computers seem to vary much more in design and have > evloved quite considerably. There is also plenty that, > potentially at least, you cannot tell just by looking. > (PALs, ASICs, custom parts, parts for which you > have no datasheet etc.). Depends on the machine, of course. And as I've said many times, the time to start thinking about repairs is when the machine is still operational. That's when you pull all the PALs and ROMs and dump them (even copy-protected PALs can be reverse-engineered, FPGAs are almost impossible, though!). If a data sheet once existed (i.e. it's not a true custom part) then it's likely _somebody_ still has it... > > So it is certainly impressive that a clock museum > can keep many clock operational; but I doubt that > any sort of computer museum would have the resources > available to do that for old computers. It is possible > to build your own valves, but is it possible to > build a replacement valve for a specific (but now > unobtainable) valve for some old mainframe? I couldn't do it, but I don't think it's impossible! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 18:11:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040910153831.04aced00@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 10, 4 03:45:23 pm Message-ID: > > Right. I'd much rather see a working replica next to a nearly working > original, compared to a pile of rubble with a sign: "This is what happened > when we tried to run this" and an irreplaceable machine destroyed forever. What's the point in having a working machine if you never run it? 99.9% of failures do no visible damage to the machine (I would, of course, recomend keeping a careful eye on PSUs, insulation resistance, etc), so what's the difference between having a working machine you never run because it might do damage and a machine that's got some custom chip failed becuase you did actually run it? -tony From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 10 18:34:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! Message-ID: Very interesting... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=3838529913 Either this is a terrific bargain for someone or a big longterm hassle to some unsuspecting sucker. The sale terms are a bit odd (sales tax on a business?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 19:08:26 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Tony simulator Message-ID: <6077068.1094861306355.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> what's a "scheamtic"? I know what "foo" is... -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell Sent: Sep 10, 2004 6:59 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tony simulator > > Jules Richardson wrote > > >We need a Tony simulator :-) (Running on classic hardware, of course!) > > When I first read this I read "We need a Tony Stimulator" Certain English phrases work well for that : 'Do you know they are giving away free classic computers?' 'Do you have a scheamtic for a ' 'How do I fix ' :-) -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 10 19:31:07 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040911003107.19974.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The sale terms are a bit > odd (sales tax on a > business?) Well, "Seller pays shipping" is even stranger... Would be rather expensive if the buyer takes them up on that offer. ;) --Bill From whdawson at localisps.net Fri Sep 10 19:33:13 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Facsimulation, though, has no Google hits! You can have this word if you want it, Sellam. A small gift for all you've done good... Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 19:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing > interactive displays.... > > > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >They clearly mark it as a replica on the accompanying plaque > (and give me > > >credit to boot :) I would agree here that it was "better" > than the real > > >thing since the users could actually see it working in a reasonable > > >facsimilation (I made up that word). > > > > When? Google's already got 563 hits for it, there's a webmag > there (split > > between Florida and BC, Canada)... > > I don't know. I use Merriam-Webster's Online, which has slowly degraded > over time in terms of good results since they want you to pay for better > access I guess. At any rate, they didn't have that form of the word, > though it seems perfectly valid to me. > > > Or are you just looking to patent it, a la M$ patenting using a > tab key in > > a browser, or somesuch? :-P > > Well, if there's money to be made then sure :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Sep 10 21:44:57 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! References: Message-ID: <000a01c497a9$539557e0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> this has been up for sale before... I suspect there is just a bunch of modern crap there.... I asked about old systems and it did not seem they had any..... someone in the area may want to check it out... the building is a rented one! all you are buying is a name and some inventory ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 4:34 PM Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! > > Very interesting... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=3838529913 > > Either this is a terrific bargain for someone or a big longterm hassle to > some unsuspecting sucker. The sale terms are a bit odd (sales tax on a > business?) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 22:16:27 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040911031627.20863.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> I live in the area, and have been to ACP several times. Rather ordinary, nothing like they were 10 years ago. The owner is a vintage computer collector, and has literally tons of systems. His website is http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Very interesting... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=3838529913 > > Either this is a terrific bargain for someone or a > big longterm hassle to > some unsuspecting sucker. The sale terms are a bit > odd (sales tax on a > business?) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || > Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 10 22:30:40 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions Message-ID: simh hp2100 how do I setup the simulator to run the papertape basic? set cpu.... att dev basic1 boot dev what do I put for dev, do I need any other attaches simh PDP11 / RSTS/E Can other machines on my network attach to the simulated PDP11 via telnet? what port? Thanks. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 22:53:57 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! In-Reply-To: <20040911031627.20863.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040911031627.20863.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I live in the area, and have been to ACP several >times. >Rather ordinary, nothing like they were 10 years ago. > >The owner is a vintage computer collector, and has >literally tons of systems. > >His website is http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ His collection is way to PC oriented for my tastes, but Wow! I'm seriously impressed! I just took the time to flip through all those systems, and while I'm totally not interested in collecting PC's, I see several I wouldn't mind having. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 23:00:06 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >simh PDP11 / RSTS/E > >Can other machines on my network attach to the simulated PDP11 via >telnet? what port? I'm not sure what the current state of SIMH networking is, especially on the Mac (which I believe you're using) even though I'm typing this on a G5. The last time I tried the SIMH networking was probably a couple years ago now. I've heard good things about networking support under SIMH VAX. I've had good luck with networking RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ using E11 running on Linux, however I never could get DECnet or LAT to work under RSTS/E when running on E11 (of course I've had enough trouble with a real PDP-11 and RSTS/E networking). I've also had good luck with networking on KLH10 (PDP-10) running TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 on top of Linux. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 23:02:07 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >simh PDP11 / RSTS/E > >Can other machines on my network attach to the simulated PDP11 via >telnet? what port? Wait a minute, I think I just realized what you're asking. Are you asking about just telneting to a port on the machine running SIMH to log into the OS running under SIMH? If so, you set the port to be what you want as part of your startup, and it works GREAT!!!! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Sep 10 23:15:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 09:00:06PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've also had good luck with networking on KLH10 (PDP-10) running > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 on top of Linux. I had no problems setting up klh10 with networking under Linux, either (well... once I hung a real terminal off the serial port so Emacs would work properly, but we've been over that here). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Sep-2004 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -39.3 F (-39.6 C) Windchill -74.3 F (-59.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.3 kts Grid 347 Barometer 666.1 mb (11156 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 10 23:27:12 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 10, 2004, at 9:02 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> simh PDP11 / RSTS/E >> >> Can other machines on my network attach to the simulated PDP11 via >> telnet? what port? > > Wait a minute, I think I just realized what you're asking. Are you > asking about just telneting to a port on the machine running SIMH to > log into the OS running under SIMH? If so, you set the port to be > what you want as part of your startup, and it works GREAT!!!! Cool, I would love to think that I can actually show multitasking on RSTS/E, Perhaps even by opening another terminal program and telneting to my own machine. What incantation do I need to tell simh before I boot. I have this in a file, I feed to simh to startup the simulated PDP 11... ----------- set cpu 1m att rl0 Disks/rsts_full_rl.dsk att rl1 Disks/rsts_swap_rl.dsk att lp0 printout b rl0 ---------- Of course I also need to figure out some other things - first on the list getting a simulated magtape to work. I *want* to be able to do backups. second may be setting up other disks. > > Zane > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 10 23:30:07 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 10, 2004, at 9:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 09:00:06PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I've also had good luck with networking on KLH10 (PDP-10) running >> TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 on top of Linux. > > I had no problems setting up klh10 with networking under Linux, either > (well... once I hung a real terminal off the serial port so Emacs would > work properly, but we've been over that here). Are you saying my MAC (which can have a serial port via USB) can run a terminal? I have an HP terminal right here! I am running simh on an G3 iBook (the one just before the 17" and 12" ones came out). > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Sep-2004 > 04:10 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -39.3 F (-39.6 C) Windchill -74.3 F > (-59.1 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 18.3 kts Grid 347 Barometer 666.1 mb > (11156 ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Sep 10 23:46:50 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! References: <20040911031627.20863.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008501c497ba$5bb7f430$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> yes... but that is not for sale to my understanding... ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:16 PM Subject: Re: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! >I live in the area, and have been to ACP several > times. > Rather ordinary, nothing like they were 10 years ago. > > The owner is a vintage computer collector, and has > literally tons of systems. > > His website is http://www.thepcmuseum.net/ > > > > > > --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> >> Very interesting... >> >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=3838529913 >> >> Either this is a terrific bargain for someone or a >> big longterm hassle to >> some unsuspecting sucker. The sale terms are a bit >> odd (sales tax on a >> business?) >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail >> Vintage Computer Festival >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintage.org >> >> [ Old computing resources for business || >> Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > From evan947 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 01:40:01 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Denver Museum of Computer Technology? Message-ID: <20040911064001.58072.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know of this museum's existence? The URL (www.museumcomputer.org) does not work. From news at computercollector.com Sat Sep 11 02:47:12 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: test, please ignore Message-ID: <20040911074712.6137.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> test, please ignore From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 11 05:11:55 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Anyone know how to set Aux port speed on Datamedia DT/80 Message-ID: <20040911101154.XTKU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Just acquired a Datamedia DT/80 (nostalgic value - spent many 100s of hours in front of one of these during earlier parts of my career). Don't have docs, however it's a pretty accurate VT-100 clone, and almost everything from the VT-100 manual is exactly right. However, it has an AUX port which the VT-100 doesn't ... I can set set TX and RX speed with SETUP-B '7' and '8', however ASPD shows at 50 and I can't find anything to budge it... Anyone know how to set the Aux port speed on a DT/80 ? Are there any settings for Aux port data bits, parity, flow-control etc.? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Sep 11 05:39:08 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Anyone know how to set Aux port speed on Datamedia DT/80 In-Reply-To: <20040911101154.XTKU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911063050.03282c58@192.168.0.1> At 06:11 AM 9/11/2004, you wrote: >Just acquired a Datamedia DT/80 (nostalgic value - spent many 100s of >hours in front of one of these during earlier parts of my career). What? You worked only a few weeks? :-) >Don't have docs, however it's a pretty accurate VT-100 clone, and almost >everything from the VT-100 manual is exactly right. However, it has an >AUX port which the VT-100 doesn't ... I can set set TX and RX speed with >SETUP-B '7' and '8', however ASPD shows at 50 and I can't find anything >to budge it... > >Anyone know how to set the Aux port speed on a DT/80 ? >Are there any settings for Aux port data bits, parity, flow-control etc.? It's most likely a Printer port. If it's a good DEC emulation, this might help. From the VT102 manual (which had VT100 Advanced Video and printer port built in): "In Setup B, the arrow keys and SHIFT select either the modem [normal computer port] or the printer [aux] interface features. When you hold down SHIFT, selects modem features, selects printer features." So, in Setup B, should select the printer features. toggles AutoPrint (line at at time). does a print screen. is supposedly the "Print" key. Ed K. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 11 05:41:36 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever References: <10409080841.ZM18331@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <006701c497eb$f11f8520$0200a8c0@geoff> Golden Eye ointment contained mercuric oxide , I had some in my youth as a treatment for styes. It was withdrawn for reasons of safety. Mercury amalgam is still used in dentistry in the uk. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Completely and totally off-topic and without any meritwhatsoever > On Sep 7 2004, 21:28, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I suspect the hazmat team over reacted just a little. > > > > This is often the case - the hazmat guys I have talked to have been > pretty > > reasonable, but due to public pressure, they often have to put on a > show. > > > > > Mercury in elemental form is not all that dangerous ( or > > > most of us old timers would be dead or vegetables by now ). > > > It is most dangerous as salts or as long term exposure > > > to vapor. > > > > Finally someone speaks the truth! Elemental mercury mostly passes > thru the > > body in one big blob, and very little is absorbed. I think it is > rarely > > used as an antibiotic, as well. > > > > The compounds are the nasty things, as they due damage pretty > > quickly. Also, mercury vapor is also very dangerous *even in short > > periods of exposure*! The poor guys in South America that purify gold > thru > > amalgamation (and the subsequent vaporizing to get the mercury back) > tend > > to have very short lives if they are not careful. > > That's because of *chronic* exposure. The risk from a single small > dose is not very high (though obviously it depends on the dose); your > body will excrete most of the mercury (but not very fast, and over the > last couple of decades, what's regarded as a "safe" level has been > reduced quite a lot). The problems come when repeated exposure causes > ingestion or absorbtion faster than you can excrete it. That's why > spilt mercury is dangerous. It gets into small spaces, and takes a > very long time (years) to vapourise (the vapour pressure is very low > but so is the toxic level). > > Various mercury compounds have been used medically (eg mercuric > chloride and mercuric iodide were used as antiseptics and fungicides). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 8 20:20:29 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:04 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications In-Reply-To: <200409082233.i88MXE3g059984@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200409090120.i891KPnb022371@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I was sent a set of GOOD scans of the ET-3400 mods and have created a PDF file. It's now on the classic computer documentation DVD that I'm selling, but also I've asked Howard Harte to post it to his site, so hopefully everyone will be able to download it from there soon (perhaps by tomorrow (Thursday, 9/9)). I'm willing to scan any LOOSE (unbound) manuals and produce high-quality PDF files, I have a high-end 2400 dpi scanner with an ADF (sheet feeder) that can do over 200 page per hour (of double sided-material) unattended. Contact me if you think that you might have something not in the collection. Originals (or copies) can be returned. Bound documents are much, much more difficult, although I've done more than a few. Barry Watzman Watzman@neo.rr.com From waisun.chia at hp.com Thu Sep 9 00:03:15 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <200409072157.RAA6100031@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <200409072157.RAA6100031@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <413FE413.5040703@hp.com> Megan wrote: >>>BA11-M (11/03) DEC/PDP logo in glorious DEC maroon: >>>http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg > > >>That doesn't look original to me. > > > It is... but a later version of the panel. You can tell by > the inset screws at the ends of the panel. I also have one > in storage at the moment... > Hah! Now I can be assured that DEC engineers do have/did had a sense of aesthetics! :-) What do the inset screws hold? > >>>http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/11-23/11-23-front-panel.jpg > > >>That's simply the result of a colour cast in a badly lit/badly exposed >>photo, probably taken under tungsten lighting. It looks just like mine >>except for the cast; mine is plain DEC grey with a black and white >>sticker. > > > This looks like several I saw at DEC, and I think I have one > myself. It is a sticker on a flat panel, not embossed one. Any versions of the logo that is colored _AND_ embossed? /wai-sun From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 9 00:03:56 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: "Vintage" tech article Message-ID: <20040909050356.52950.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/technology/circuits/09retr.html You have to register, but it's free. - Evan K. From JMeyer101 at aol.com Thu Sep 9 16:20:19 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Intellec-mds 800 Message-ID: <003E08F9.67436526.0233EB56@aol.com> Looking for help on an Intellec 4. I need to get a power cord. Does anyone know of a source for cords for the classic computers? Does the Intellec 4 and other Intellec models share the same power cords? Thanks, Jeff From Bob_Plew at or.mxim.com Thu Sep 9 16:32:53 2004 From: Bob_Plew at or.mxim.com (Plew, Bob) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: disk drive Message-ID: <5C99C308457E6D4EA5448EA52A66004A409E5C@or.mxim.com> I am looking for a Sony floppy drive Model# MP-F52W-00D. Do you have any information on how I could obtain one? Please reply to both e-mail addresses in this message. Thank you, Jason From sieler at allegro.com Thu Sep 9 21:17:45 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <010e01c4948f$b669d5c0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <4140AC59.28165.5E30318@localhost> Re: > Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... > > we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... ideas > folks? I just got back from Boston (www.noreascon.org), where I happened to visit the Museum of Science. On the second floor, they've got a history of computers display with a couple of interesting interactive displays. 1. core memory They had a large size plane of core memory (about 1 foot by 1 foot) holding a total of 6 (yes: SIX!) bits of memory. The display allowed the visitor to press one of two buttons to select a row, and one of three buttons to select a column. By pressing one of each (at the same time) you stored a bit into that core (can't recall if you could choose between 1 and 0). (And, there was an "erase" button, which may have erased all 6 bits.) To see how the core was set, there were 6 small compasses...one by each core. The cores were *large*, about 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter. If you changed the setting of a bit, you saw that bit's compass needle swing aroung 180 degrees (real compasses, BTW). In short, a great visual aid to understanding how core memory works. 2. disk drives They had a model of a disk drive, with one spinning platter (18" in diameter?) and a head mechanism (the mechanism didn't move, sigh). The platter had two tracks of data, with about 8 bits per track, giving the "drive" a grand total of 2 BYTES of storage. The visitor could press one button to select a track, and could then press "1" or "0" (IIRC) to record that value onto the bit ... as it passed under the disk head. How could you tell when the bit was passing under the head? Each bit was a magnetized donut, with one half painted red, mounted in a hole in the platter (about a 2" hole) suspended on an "axle" that was parallel to the platter (and capable of rotating). I assume there was some kind of small magnet, or adequate friction, to prevent the donut from rotating at random. The disk head was an electromagnet, which would cause the red half of the donut to either be attracted (leaving the red half "face up" (let's call that a 1) or repelled (leaving the red half "face down" (a 0). The head mech contained a sensor to read the value of the bits as they passed under the head, and there were a pair of LED displays to show the status of the 8 bits (so the disk was probably hard sectored :) (yeah, such a displau isn't realistic, but it was nice to have.) Both displays were fun to use! -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From waisun.chia at hp.com Fri Sep 10 00:15:17 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <41413865.8020808@hp.com> Wow! Thanks a lot. The speed is incredible!! :-) (and I'm on a dialup at this day and age...hey! I'm on-topic!) p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog modem technology daily? /wai-sun From jpowell7 at msn.com Fri Sep 10 00:57:29 2004 From: jpowell7 at msn.com (Jay Powell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: tektronx 310a Message-ID: I have a goood to great condition 310a scope and seen your message on the web. It is for sale...are you intrested or do you have an idea on where I could sell it? Thanks, Jay _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From parsh_gndu at rediffmail.com Fri Sep 10 01:38:25 2004 From: parsh_gndu at rediffmail.com (Parshotam Sharma) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Facit 4070,Query Message-ID: <20040910063825.27661.qmail@webmail28.rediffmail.com> ? Dear Sir, I am a researcher from India and I read about you from the internet that you have got a wide knowledge and service manuals for Fait 4070. Sir, I have some qureies. Firstly,How to interface Facit 4070 with computer so that it can decode the hole punched directly. Secondly,I am having Facit N4000 ( REader/Puncher), but i am not having service manual for that . Could you please send me that via email or my postal address given in end of this email. Thanking you, With Regards, PARSHOTAM sharma Research Fellow, Department of Electronics Tech., Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar. India. From news at computercollector.com Fri Sep 10 23:09:05 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: ACP Computer Store in Santa Ana up on the auction block! Message-ID: <20040911040905.18040.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Given the sudden interest, here's a copy of the autobiographical article by Dave Freeman, published in the June 7 issue of the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter. (Shameless self-promotion: the intentionally primitive web site is http://news.computercollector.com) -- Evan K. ------------------------------ The Beginning Advanced Computer Products, Inc. (ACP) was founded by me, Dave Freeman, in the summer of 1976. While working at Fairchild and National semiconductor, I experienced first-hand the development of the basic monolithic integrated circuit into a microprocessor chip. In 1975, General Instruments developed an integrated video pong chip that minimized the number of parts required to build a video game. This sparked a massive video game war that included unlikely participants such as Ingersoll, Interstate Electronics, and other companies that got involved in building Pong machines. Before GI started shipping the AY-3-8500 video game chip, I negotiated an order of 25,000 pieces to support the hobbyist market via mail order. I convinced GI that this was a viable market that required extra support, and they agreed to set aside enough chips to support our needs. I developed a video pong kit and started advertising in Popular Electronics and later in Byte. The kit was available for $39.95, and the response was overwhelming. After two months I had over $80,000 in the bank. I still had a job with a semiconductor distributor, but I built and shipped pong kits at night. Then the unimaginable happened: GI reneged on my video pong chip orders! I had thousands of dollars of hobbyists' money and no chips to complete the kits. The demand for the video pong chip was so high that GI took another step placing the chip on allocation and shipping to only five manufacturers worldwide. Many video game manufacturers invested big on getting this chip. Many went out of business or lost substantial cash due to their inability to get the chip. I contacted the manufacturers that were getting parts and came across a contact in the Philippines that was willing to sell me ships via the gray market for cash. The only problem was the parts would have the part number and date code shaved off and the price would be a whopping 20 bucks each! This was four or five times the going price in the market. I arranged to meet this gentleman at Los Angeles Airport and purchased 1,000 chips at a time for $20,000 cash, and the parts were delivered in cigar boxes. He would then fly back to the Philippines. Fortunately for me, the parts were genuine and I was able to deliver the kits to our customers. This was the start of ACP. This was also the last time I would have a good night's sleep. Early Life in a Garage I quickly resigned from my position as vice president of the semiconductor distributor and concentrated full-time on supporting the hobbyist market via mail order. I worked out of a garage that had one light socket that we octopused enough lines to power the equipment required to process and ship orders. My brother Tom joined me at this time and we were in business. We added more integrated circuits to our mail-order ad such as the [Intel] 8080 microprocessor, and our mail-order business continued to grow. Soon we increased the size of our Popular Electronics ad to a full page and added Byte magazine. This was a huge decision at the time as one page in Popular Electronics cost $3,000. We decided to go for it and it worked. Our mail-order business doubled each month for the next six months. ACP Computer Retail Is Born I had a vision that the new personal computers just introduced into the market were going to be purchased from retail stores. I also believed that everyone would have a personal computer in their home -- a vision not shared by many during this time. In November 1976, we opened a retail store with 3,000 sq. ft. of retail and warehousing space. Our original name was Advanced Microcomputer Products. We eventually changed it to Advanced Computer Products due to a cease-and-desist order from Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). ACP was one of the first 10 computer stores in the nation and still holds claim being the oldest operating independent computer retail location on the planet. We quickly added computers to our offering and became dealers for Imsai, Apple, Processor Technology, TDL/Xitan, Smoke Signal Broadcasting, and Vector Graphic. In the early days, I recall trying to convince friends and business clients that there would be a personal computer in every home in the USA. They were not convinced and I spent several years talking about how personal computers were going to change the world. In those days, my early competitors in retail were The Computer Store of Santa Monica, owned and operated by Dick Heiser, The Byte Shop of Orange, owned and operated by John French and Hal Lashley (also George Tate of Ashton-Tate fame got his roots here). There was also Byte Shop of Westminster, owned by Marty Rezmer and their top salesman was Vern Raburn, who later held top management positions with Microsoft, Lotus, Vulcan Venture Capital, and who now builds airplanes in New Mexico. My Life with Apple Early in 1977, I got a telephone call from Gene Carter, national sales manager for National Semiconductor, inviting me to come up to Silicon Valley for a visit. Gene proceeded to pick my brain about the personal computer revolution. His main interest was Apple Computer. I told him it was for real and he immediately joined Apple as one of its first managers along with Mike Markkula and Phil Roybal. Phil had joined National as the result of my arranging an interview for him. Mike Scott, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak were already at Apple. I then became one of Apple's first dealers. ACP grew its Apple sales to over $5 million per year and actually set up a series of technology centers for the Greater LA Schools to train teachers. Still an independent, we were one of the top Apple resellers in the country. Other Apple dealers in the Southern California area included: Wabash Computer, Priority One and Computique. Apple quickly let their early success go to heir heads and started changing the policies and procedures for resellers. Apple tried to control the entire market and unfortunately forced many resellers to exit the retail computer business. Apple management became more and more concerned about dealers selling their computers via mail order. My good friend, Gene Carter, whom I helped to decide to join Apple and become a mega-millionaire, sent all Apple dealers a new contract. This contract would add the condition that Apple had the right to change the contract with only 10 days notice. Within days a new contact was sent out giving all dealers 10 days to be out of the mail-order business. All Apple sales would require a "face-to-face" meeting with the end customer! ACP had just distributed its new mail order catalog with a 12-page Apple-only color insert. This represented a major capital commitment on the part of ACP. We basically bet our business on future Apple business we would get from the new catalog. Unfair, that is an understatement! ACP joined with five other dealers such as Olympic Sales to sue Apple for its mail-order ban based on the Robinson-Patman fair trade agreement. Unfortunately for us, Ronald Reagan was in power and big business was protected by his administration. We lost in a summary judgment. (About this time we received a call from the White House and they ordered 15 memory upgrade kits via mail order. We gave them open account and received payment in 180 days!). All of the other mail-order companies involved in the Apple lawsuit went bankrupt. ACP survived but lost millions of dollars as a result of the Apple decision. It's fair to say ACP was not the only one to become a victim of the arrogant, self-serving decisions to be made by Apple in the future. Ironically, Apple is now a big player in the mail-order business and at the time of the lawsuit Apple had a small software mail-order business as well. Trying to adhere to Apples policies of prohibiting sales of computers outside our approved ZIP codes and requiring face-to-face meetings, I recollect calling Apple one day to see if we could handle an order for 20 Apple II computers for an education center in Katmandu, Nepal. They approved this transaction and ACP was the first to introduce computers to Nepal. I never understood this decision and never will. In 1986 we ceased to offer Apple products in view of their desire to only sell to major chains such as Businessland, Sears, Computerland, and others. The personal computer had become big business. Operating a Computer Retail Store Operating a computer retail store in the early days from 1976-1980 was a real test for any businessman. Cash flow was generated by selling computers for cash (usually cash in advance.) The problem was in those days that all manufacturers demanded cash in advance for computer purchases. Credit lines were non-existent! Distributors were also not yet founded. Imsai, one of the first personal computer manufacturers, would make us send cash in advance plus order significantly more computers than we needed. Our salesman was Bill Lohse, who went on to be the publisher of PC Magazine and executive for Ziff Davis. The toughest decision we made on a weekly basis was how much cash to send computer manufacturers and will they go out of business before they complete our advance orders. Market Driven by Computer Shows In 1977, ACP participated in the first West Coast Computer Faire, founded by Jim Warren. This became the foremost showcase for new personal computer products and we were part of all of them. Apple introduced its Apple II at this show and wowed the computer hobbyists with a live demo of "Breakout". Mike Scott personally handled the demos! ACP also participated in the world's second computer show held in Trenton, New Jersey (the first was held in Atlantic City a short-time earlier). Computer shows became very popular through 1979 as we traveled to Boston (Wayne Green's Shows), Toronto, Philadelphia, New York, Houston and many other venues to show our products. The key show and the most significant show however, continued to be the West Coast Computer Faire in San Francisco. In 1977 the first Comdex show was held in a back room at the MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vegas. I was there and it consisted of about 50 booths, and who would of imagined that Sheldon Alderson would turn Comdex into the success that it has enjoyed over the years! Let's Build It In 1977 ACP developed one of the first 4K memory boards for the Altair, Imsai, and other S-100 bus computers. Our card solved the instability and quality problems other 4K cards had and our sales took off. We then added other S-100 cards. We then developed the Z-80 Softcard for the Apple and a 256K memory card. We negotiated an OEM agreement with Microsoft and built more than 250,000 of each card sold under the Microsoft name. Our manufacturing business became so big we spun it off under Vista Computer and added more upgrade cards for the Apple and the IBM PC when introduced in 1981. The World's First Computer Superstore In 1981, ACP opened two new stores, one in Tustin the other in San Jose, California. Our San Jose store was named ACP Technology Center, and it was the first "Computer Superstore" in the country. Our objective was to open Computer Superstores in 12 major cities within a two-hour plane ride from Santa Ana. We hired industry executive Tom Anthony to roll out, obtain financing, and secure authorizations for our expansion program. We invested over a million dollars in opening this store. ACP Technology Center was an instant success. We then tried to obtain authorizations from Apple and IBM to sell their computers. The general concept of computer retail at that time was to have a store on every corner a la Computerland. IBM was really focused on getting an IBM medallion placed at every corner of the country. A Computer Superstore did not fit their model and we were too early to market with our concept. Six-months later Businessland convinced IBM that the way to go was computer superstores and IBM bit on it hook, line, and sinker. The rest is history. In fact IBM became so selective and restrictive as far as their computer resellers that the price of an IBM computer store medallion soared to over $150,000 for one location. First Computer TV Show In 1982 we produced the first TV show for personal computers on channel 48 in San Jose. "The Computer Show" was hosted by our store manager, Manny Lucero, and featured special guests and new product introductions for the first 30 minutes and the remainder of the show took call-ins from the viewers. Guests included Steve Wozniak, a real supporter of the show and the store even though his brother had his own computer store in Cupertino, as well as Steve Jobs, Philippe Khan, Paul Terrell, and others. The show continued for two years and we were forced to go off the air as the costs increased dramatically and it was difficult to get marketing funds from manufacturers at that time to support a TV show. Collecting PCs I always knew there was something special about the genesis of the personal computer revolution. I started early collecting PCs and remain an avid collector today. The PC Museum has over 700 computers at the present time and our objective is to someday create a venue where this memorabilia can be displayed to the public. Our website is at www.thepcmuseum.net. Donations If you have anything to donate please let us know as there are still some computers that we do not have. The short list of computers we need includes: Sphere, Ithaca, Byt-8, PolyMorphic Systems, Heathkit H8, Cromemco, TDL/Xitan, Smoke Signal Broadcasting and Apple I. We also need all the memorabilia and photos that we can get related to the history of personal computers. If you have historical information about the systems we have online, we invite you to submit the information to share with our website users. It has been a special 28 years for me. Just surviving the unpredictable changes in the personal computer field, which has been a roller coaster ride, it is simply amazing that we are still here today. The memories we have of the industry and people we met and worked with has made it all worthwhile. Our customers have also given us many rewards from their continued support and the friendship we have enjoyed over the years. I am sleeping a little bit better these days! (David Freeman is founder and CEO of Advanced Computer Products Inc. Dave attended Long Beach State and the University of Southern California. He has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering.) From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Sep 11 02:34:16 2004 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Tony simulator In-Reply-To: <6077068.1094861306355.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthli nk.net> References: <6077068.1094861306355.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040911083240.01e5d6c0@slave> At 01:08 11/09/2004, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Duell > >'Do you have a scheamtic for a ' ----------- >what's a "scheamtic"? I know what "foo" is... A "scheamtic" is just like a "schematic", with the addition of a small mirror in the middle. HTH! Cheers, Ade. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Sep 11 08:24:31 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: "Vintage" tech article In-Reply-To: <20040909050356.52950.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911092347.03091270@192.168.0.1> At 01:03 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/technology/circuits/09retr.html > >You have to register, but it's free. No you don't ... refuse registration http://www.bugmenot.com/ Ed K. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 11 08:50:23 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009a01c49806$4a2019e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >> This is good, but a clock usually costs less to run than >> a computer (and a lot less to run than an *old* computer). > >Possibly... On the other hand PCs aren't _free_ to run either, My point is that once you have rebuilt your clock, it does not cost much to make it available to the public in good working order. Put it in a display case, wind it up and off you go. You'll need to pay for maintenance (and someone to wind the clocks as necessary) but that's it. Computers (including modern PCs) come with a power bill attached (the older, the bigger - in general). Running a PDP-10 would not be cheap. Running Big Ben (if I had the space :-)) would just need me to wind it up now and then. (I'm ignoring the maintenance costs of both BB and a DEC-10, because I assume they are both too much for me!) > > There are also many more people willing and/or able to > > sit down and understand a clock than there seem to be > > who are willing/able to do the same for electronics. > > This I don't understnad. In the UK at least, there has been a long tradition of mechanical engineering. Add to that, the fact that many people find it easier to comprehend things that they can see and I suspect you have the answer. > Classic computers (at least not any one I've > worked on) are not that hard to understand. For thee and me, maybe. But for the majority of people they are a black box. No moving parts. >And if I can do > it, anyone > can! Somewhat unlikely. I expect any reasonably practical person can do what you do with you there telling them what to do in detail. It's the umpteen years of experience that you have that help you decide what to do next. > Problem is that nobody seems to _want_ to understand > electronics any > more (and this worries me a lot!). I don't think there was ever a Golden Age when everyone wanted to understand X (substitute any reasonably technical subject for X). This doesn't worry me: we don't need that many people to take an interest. Just enough so that there are local resources available to help and encourage. > OK, let's see how you'd get on doing jobs like I have no experience of any of those jobs, so I would get on quite badly. I'd hope to have a go though, and if all I'm doing is building a replacement part, all I would need to believe (for an item of historical interest - basically anything old :-)) with some reasonable confidence is that my replacement part not cause any harm to the original components. When it comes to (for example) bushing a plate hole on an original part, I would certainly want to have practiced on some non-historical parts first! > And so on. There are simple clock repairs, there are > difficult ones. Much > like computer repairs. True. OTOH, how many old clocks are truly impossible to repair? How many of them were constructed in such a manner that they could not be dismantled to determine how it was meant to work in the first place? (And for those with bigger budgets, how impossible does the repair remain when you can push the clock through an appropriate MRI scanner). With computers there are many parts whose internal function would be very difficult to determine without a datasheet. (And, obviously, PALs, [E]PROMs etc. make things even harder). None of this makes computers impossible to fix, but it does look to be harder (and I say that as someone who would have far more confidence in his abilities to fix electronics than something fine and mechanical). > Depends on the machine, of course. And as I've said many > times, the time > to start thinking about repairs is when the machine is still > operational. This is certainly true. > That's when you pull all the PALs and ROMs and dump them (even > copy-protected PALs can be reverse-engineered, FPGAs are almost > impossible, though!). If a data sheet once existed (i.e. it's > not a true > custom part) then it's likely _somebody_ still has it... I know that most of the datasheets for high-end parts that I've seen at work lately (say since 2000) have been made available through an NDA. That's fair enough at the start (since being on the cutting edge means using the latest parts and noone wants the competition to know what they are doing) but with the shorter component lifetimes, I'm not sure that these parts ever come out of the NDA process. Getting these datasheets won't be impossible, but it will be harder than finding data on a BC108 or an NE555 fifty years from now! > I couldn't do it, but I don't think it's impossible! There are factories still churning out valves, so it is certainly possible. There are university labs that let you build your own transistors. These things will hopefully eventually filter down to the hobbyist on the street (if we're lucky). Still harder to do at home at the moment than, say, grinding a crankshaft or resleeving a cylinder. And more expensive to have it done as a one-off special than it would be to find a machine shop to do a special part for you. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 11 09:18:08 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >Are you saying my MAC (which can have a serial port via USB) can run >a terminal? >I have an HP terminal right here! > >I am running simh on an G3 iBook (the one just before the 17" and >12" ones came out). John Dundas recently posted the incantations needed to get Mac OS X to work with a Serial terminal attached via a serial-to-usb connector... John wrote: >You bet... > >a) Keyspan "High Speed USB Serial Adapter USA-19HS > > >b) Add a line similar to the following to /etc/ttys: >tty.USA19H181P1.1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > >c) 10.2.8 [PowerBook G4] and 10.2.8(G5) [Yes, I hooked it up to my >dual 2GHz G5.] > >John I've not tried this myself, but it does seem tempting. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Sep 11 09:37:58 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:15:17 +0800." <41413865.8020808@hp.com> Message-ID: <200409111437.PAA21212@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Wai-Sun Chia said: > Wow! Thanks a lot. The speed is incredible!! :-) > (and I'm on a dialup at this day and age...hey! I'm on-topic!) > > > p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog > modem technology daily? > Me. (Although that will probably change soon...) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 11 10:29:26 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009d01c49814$1f3f0c50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > What's the point in having a working machine if you never run > it? I agree that machines should, in general, be run if possible. Not all the time, but on a reasonably regular basis. (Assuming you are a museum. For me at home, I'll run them when I need to to perform some task, or when I want to. The rest of the time they stay switched off - I cannot afford the power or the space to run them all 24x7!) > so > what's the difference between having a working machine you never run > because it might do damage and a machine that's got some custom chip > failed becuase you did actually run it? In the future we might have the technology to probe those ancient chips and figure out how to build a replacement. Hopefully. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 10:31:12 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I think this would get the terminal to login to the BSD unix underlying Mac os x, and perhaps from there I can telnet into the PDP11 sim. I was hoping the terminal could somehow directly connect to the sim, but telneting would be good. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Sep 11 10:30:15 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <200409111437.PAA21212@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200409111437.PAA21212@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <41431A07.7030707@vzavenue.net> I haven't used dial-up service since 1998. James Stan Barr wrote: >Hi, > >Wai-Sun Chia said: > > > >>Wow! Thanks a lot. The speed is incredible!! :-) >>(and I'm on a dialup at this day and age...hey! I'm on-topic!) >> >> >>p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >>modem technology daily? >> >> >> > >Me. > >(Although that will probably change soon...) > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 11 10:33:21 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <200409111437.PAA21212@citadel.metropolis.local> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911112815.00ae2f30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Stan Barr may have mentioned these words: >Hi, > >Wai-Sun Chia said: > > > Wow! Thanks a lot. The speed is incredible!! :-) > > (and I'm on a dialup at this day and age...hey! I'm on-topic!) > > > > > > p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog > > modem technology daily? > > > >Me. I use classic digital technology daily... ISDN debuted in '75 after all... ;-) (and judging from the state of technology in my town, they're probably using 25 year old equipment to get ISDN to me!) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 10:45:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am thinking of Sellams PDP-1 replica in Tokyo, by all accounts they > > I don't think I'd call that a replica. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I > thought it was based on a PC running an emulator. To me a replica of a > PDP1 would be a machine built as far as possible to the original > schematics (using more modern components if appropriate, like more common > tranasistors). But IMHO even the PSU should be built to the original design. True, by the definition of the word it was not a replica. Perhaps "simulation" is more apt. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 11:10:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: NY Times article on retro-stuff Message-ID: I found this paragraph to be hilarious in its irony: The pair's first conversion, at their Web site (facadecomputer.com), is of a computer built into the mahogany casing of a 1937 Emerson 215 tube radio that they rescued from Mr. Fader's attic. Other possibilities for casings include old briefcases, typewriters and televisions. "The idiom 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' really applies here," Mr. Fader said. "There's a lot of stuff that people really don't realize the value of." Hundreds of radio collectors just had an aneurysm. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 11 11:24:42 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >modem technology daily? Me!!! - one of the effects of country living - no hope for anything faster for a LONG time... :-( Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mcesari at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 11:28:22 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <9903B6EA-040F-11D9-9D58-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Sep 11, 2004, at 9:31 AM, Ron Hudson wrote: > I think this would get the terminal to login to the BSD unix > underlying Mac os x, and perhaps from there I can telnet into the > PDP11 sim. > > I was hoping the terminal could somehow directly connect to the sim, > but telneting would be good. > I've started using iTerm from http://iterm.sourceforge.net It allows you to set up "bookmarks" which automagically open a new window and runs a command of your choice. It also has key-mapping capability. While I haven't to played with this extensively, the default settings for the "vt100" selection does the keypad stuff (lse/eve, edt, etc.) correctly. Mike From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Sep 11 11:28:57 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am thinking of Sellams PDP-1 replica in Tokyo, by all accounts they > > > > I don't think I'd call that a replica. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I > > thought it was based on a PC running an emulator. To me a replica of a > > PDP1 would be a machine built as far as possible to the original > > schematics (using more modern components if appropriate, like more common > > tranasistors). But IMHO even the PSU should be built to the original design. This gives me a crazy idea of building an all transistor replica of a simple CPU (with maybe a serial ALU) on a large single surface mount card (suitable for framing). Maybe even with SMT LEDs on most of the collector loads - lots of blinkenlights! Peter Wallace From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 11 11:35:41 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911122948.03a8dc20@mail.30below.com> Well, with everyone here having Mercury on the Brain syndrome lately (thanks again Sellam! ;-) ) I have a question about shipping it, possibly overseas: I have 3 old (but not *quite* antique) heavy-duty thermometers that use mercury as it's internal sensing liquid. (I have *no* idea if there's a technical term for that...) I've gotten on a "empty the house so I can actually walk through it without stubbing my toes on crap" kick, so I've been epaying just about everything in sight[1], and I was thinking of epaying these, too. I have 2 questions: 1) I normally offer shipping to the US, Canada & Western Europe - anyone know what kind of restrictions there are on shipping mercury, even if it is very well enclosed (I'm talking about the thermometer, but I was planning on taking extra precautions packing them as well)? 2) Do thermometers suffer badly in a decompressed atmosphere? Can I ship these airmail, or do they have to be ground/boat shipped? Thanks one and all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Sep 11 12:12:01 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <0409111712.AA17360@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog > modem technology daily? My main computing centre is connected to the outside world by one. Logically it's a very dedicated connection (I have a real full Class C NET routed down my pipe), but physically it's an analog dialup modem. MS From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 11 12:23:11 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911122948.03a8dc20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <003501c49824$03f63c10$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Roger: I don't know about the atmospheric issues. However, Mercury and Mercury compounds are considered to be highly toxic (through atomization or absorption through the skin) and might be regulated in different countries. I would ship the thermometers by ground and pack them in rigid containers within other packaging. Here's a link I found on the Lawrence Livermore National Labs site about the safe handling of Mercury. http://www.llnl.gov/es_and_h/hsm/doc_14.05/doc14-05.html Here is the Google search link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=handling+mercury+thermometers& spell=1 Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Roger Merchberger Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 12:36 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury Well, with everyone here having Mercury on the Brain syndrome lately (thanks again Sellam! ;-) ) I have a question about shipping it, possibly overseas: I have 3 old (but not *quite* antique) heavy-duty thermometers that use mercury as it's internal sensing liquid. (I have *no* idea if there's a technical term for that...) I've gotten on a "empty the house so I can actually walk through it without stubbing my toes on crap" kick, so I've been epaying just about everything in sight[1], and I was thinking of epaying these, too. I have 2 questions: 1) I normally offer shipping to the US, Canada & Western Europe - anyone know what kind of restrictions there are on shipping mercury, even if it is very well enclosed (I'm talking about the thermometer, but I was planning on taking extra precautions packing them as well)? 2) Do thermometers suffer badly in a decompressed atmosphere? Can I ship these airmail, or do they have to be ground/boat shipped? Thanks one and all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 11 12:26:43 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Message-ID: <20040911172642.EEQE14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Does anyone have information on error-codes that are flashed by PET disk drives after power-up diagnostics fail. I have a drive set which after powerup, enters into a state where it flashes the POWER LED alternating with both drive LEDs (together) - It repeats this flash cycle exactly 6 times, then pauses, then another 6 ... forever. I assume it's a diagnostic failure - Can anyone tell me what it means? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Sep 11 12:30:11 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord In-Reply-To: <200409111701.i8BH183e001114@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201c49824$fdd5fa40$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> > Looking for help on an Intellec 4. I need to get a power > cord. Does anyone know of a source for cords for the classic > computers? Does the Intellec 4 and other Intellec models > share the same power cords? > > Thanks, > > Jeff > Take a look at Newark Electronics - 17280-B1-8 or 17952-B1-8 - under power supply cords. Jack From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 11 13:44:53 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 11, 2004, at 9:24 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >> modem technology daily? > Me too... Can't afford the $60 for DSL or Cable Modem, so I pay $15 for dial up. Too bad the phone company (sbc) doesn't make a slow dsl available, no faster than my modem but always on and shareable.. that's what I miss most. > Me!!! - one of the effects of country living - no hope for anything > faster for a LONG time... :-( > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 11 13:55:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: version of MSDOS 6.22 expand.exe for Linux? In-Reply-To: <10409101953.ZM20832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1094819969.10607.39.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409101953.ZM20832@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1094928934.12307.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-10 at 19:53 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I know you've got it sorted now, but if it ever happens again, remember > that on a single-floppy machine, DOS will prompt you to change the disk > in the floppy drive if you refer to it as B: instead of A: (and then > prompt you to change back when appropriate). D'oh! I knew that... once! :-) Ta for the reminder, that piece of info had totally left my brain! J. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 11 14:13:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <41413865.8020808@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Sep 10, 4 01:15:17 pm Message-ID: > p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog > modem technology daily? Well, I am sure there's a DSP chip in it (i.e. not analogue filters) but I'm using a 14k4 Sportster. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 11 14:26:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes In-Reply-To: <20040911172642.EEQE14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 11, 4 01:26:43 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > Does anyone have information on error-codes that are flashed by PET disk drives > after power-up diagnostics fail. > > I have a drive set which after powerup, enters into a state where it flashes the > POWER LED alternating with both drive LEDs (together) - It repeats this flash > cycle exactly 6 times, then pauses, then another 6 ... forever. > > I assume it's a diagnostic failure - Can anyone tell me what it means? UEs, it's a diagnostic code. From the 8050/8250 service manual (component references will be different in other drives, I guess ) # flashses 1 Zero Page 6532 UC1,UE1 2 ROM $E000-$FFFF 2364 UL1 3 ROM $C000-$DFFF 2364 UH1 4 Not Used 5 Zero Page 6530 UK3 6 RAM $1000-$13FF 2114 UC4,UC5 7 RAM $2000-$23FF 2114 UD4,UD5 8 RAM $3000-$33FF 2114 UE4,UE5 9 RAM $4000-$43FF 2114 UF4,UF5 10 Cotnroller ROM 6530 UK3 or 6502 UH3 -tony From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 11 15:35:15 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911122948.03a8dc20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <029a01c4983e$e31decc0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury > I have 3 old (but not *quite* antique) heavy-duty thermometers that use > mercury as it's internal sensing liquid. (I have *no* idea if there's a > technical term for that...) > I have 2 questions: > > 1) I normally offer shipping to the US, Canada & Western Europe - anyone > know what kind of restrictions there are on shipping mercury, even if it is > very well enclosed (I'm talking about the thermometer, but I was planning > on taking extra precautions packing them as well)? > > 2) Do thermometers suffer badly in a decompressed atmosphere? Can I ship > these airmail, or do they have to be ground/boat shipped? > I would have thought that thermometers are fairly safe as there is no air inside , only mercury and a vacuum ( well mercury vapour ). I can't see that there any restrictions on shipping - most of them probably come from China , these days , anyway. Ask your shipping company. The glass on a thermometer is pretty thick. Geoff. > Thanks one and all! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" > sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" > zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" > | JC == Jeremy Christian > From mike-cc at msdsite.com Sat Sep 11 15:53:38 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Vintage Manual Sony Discs - Source needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040830133604.03b76460@mail.30below.com> References: <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <41430362.20481.407B61@localhost> I'm looking for a source for vintage Sony 3.5" discs. I'm specifically looking for the old manual operated shutters. Those were the ones where you had to open the shutter manually and then squeeze the corner to get it to snap back. This is not a case of simply finding something to work. I'm specifically interested in those vintage discs. If you don't know what I mean, go here for a photo. http://www.msdsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1647 I have a dual disc drive that uses these and I'd like to keep it as original as possible, including using original discs. Thanks, Mike From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 11 16:06:23 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Friden Flexowriter... Message-ID: <1094936783.10126.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> In a bold and foolish move this morning, I simply plugged in the frayed off-line power cord into the Flexo and outlet, and flipped the switch. Motor spun, no work. Tilted down the keyboard lookup table (sic) on the bottom, rotated the mainshaft by hand, it loosened. After that, the thing ran! Lubrication is dead, which was obvious before I started. I know I shouldn't have done this, but total run time << 60 seconds, it was a 'success experience' and overall good news. It was nice to have a physical experience after all this time of hypotheticals and document-gathering. From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 11 16:20:17 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery Message-ID: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> OK, I'm very close to needing to suck the data off the main memory of this LGP-21 before I reform caps and all that electronicky stuff. It would be nice to have a 16-bit MHz A/D system, but I don't. Any *practical* suggestions for someone with an extremely limited budget? I also don't have time to build one, though it's within my skills. (The LGP-21 I have has a rotating magnetic main memory; bit-serial 80KHz clock, 64 physical tracks (128 logical), 4096 31 (32) bit words, NRZ or NRZI. I figure A/D sampling of the raw head signal at 8 to 10 times the original clock rate will allow offline data recovery, should I smash data on later CPU powerup.) The platter is driven by an AC motor. It powers up completely independently of the rest of the computer, so I can easily do all this before I begin the restoration. I planned on rigging up a fast opamp buffer/amp, clip-leading it onto each head in turn (the heads are low-Z; I do know about ground, common-mode, etc), and taking 2, 4 or a dozen snapshots of each track. I'll make the track snapshots available to anyone who wants them. If there's anything there, it would be really nice to see 41-year-old-data. Practical suggestions appreciated... From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 11 16:35:30 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: "Vintage" tech article References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911092347.03091270@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <009d01c49847$444e5220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Kelleher To: ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 9:24 AM Subject: Re: "Vintage" tech article At 01:03 AM 9/9/2004, you wrote: >http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/technology/circuits/09retr.html > >You have to register, but it's free. No you don't ... refuse registration http://www.bugmenot.com/ Ed K. From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 11 16:38:10 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: "Vintage" tech article Message-ID: <00a301c49847$a31e7a00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/technology/circuits/09retr.html > No. > http://www.bugmenot.com/ For what it's worth, I've been subscribed to the NYT for over three years, perhaps over 5. Not once have they asked me to renew the subscription, like a free magazine might do, for example. John A. From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Sep 11 16:42:25 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: A simple method of sync would have to be worked out, but, being the AnalogGeek(tm) that I am, I'd be tempted to record the bitstreams as square-wave audio data to some kind of DAW software... perahps with a small amount of roll-off (6dB/oct) coming out of the head amp would limit the bandwidth and make the PC or Mac's soundcard happier..... if you could get a 'whole drum after this pulse' (sort of like capturing one video frame) sync set up, then you could record each track onto a similar parallel track in the DAW.... later this can be 'played back' to recover the data.... worst-case is that you have to inspect and slipsyunc individual tracks.... Recording this would be fairly tedious but apart from a high-speed multi-track data-logger, It would get the job done. Gold-Wave would be a candidate for this, or the 'free' version of ProTools.... Another thought would be to use an external audio osc and power-amp to slow down the drum motor and make it easier to record the track pulses and index marks... run the motor at 10 Htz or so. Cheers John From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Sep 11 16:46:23 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > OK, I'm very close to needing to suck the data off the main memory of > this LGP-21 before I reform caps and all that electronicky stuff. > > It would be nice to have a 16-bit MHz A/D system, but I don't. Any > *practical* suggestions for someone with an extremely limited budget? I > also don't have time to build one, though it's within my skills. > > (The LGP-21 I have has a rotating magnetic main memory; bit-serial 80KHz > clock, 64 physical tracks (128 logical), 4096 31 (32) bit words, NRZ or > NRZI. I figure A/D sampling of the raw head signal at 8 to 10 times the > original clock rate will allow offline data recovery, should I smash > data on later CPU powerup.) > > The platter is driven by an AC motor. It powers up completely > independently of the rest of the computer, so I can easily do all this > before I begin the restoration. I planned on rigging up a fast opamp > buffer/amp, clip-leading it onto each head in turn (the heads are low-Z; > I do know about ground, common-mode, etc), and taking 2, 4 or a dozen > snapshots of each track. I'll make the track snapshots available to > anyone who wants them. > > If there's anything there, it would be really nice to see > 41-year-old-data. > > Practical suggestions appreciated... > > I would think that 16 bits is way overkill (the original read channel gets by with one bit) 8 bits ought to be good enough if you use most of the bits. 8bit 1 MHz A-Ds are cheap and simple to use. Also since you have multiple passes available you could just use a comparator and adjust the threshold (even manually) every rotation (like a sampling scope) This way you only need to record (multiple) 1 bit streams @ 800 KHz or so - easily done with a PC parallel port (= 100KHz reading of shift register) Peter Wallace From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 11 17:37:30 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury In-Reply-To: <029a01c4983e$e31decc0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911122948.03a8dc20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911183450.04f23dd8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Geoffrey Thomas may have mentioned these words: >I would have thought that thermometers are fairly safe as there is no air >inside , only mercury and a vacuum ( well mercury vapour ). >I can't see that there any restrictions on shipping - most of them probably >come from China , these days , anyway. >Ask your shipping company. The glass on a thermometer is pretty thick. I did some searches on ePay, and I did find a few people selling things with mercury in them. Most of these people were shipping worldwide with USPS Priority mail, so I'd doubt there'd be any problems... ;-) [[ Sellam: I found one guy selling 5 decent-sized mercury switches -- if you needed a 2nd round, or more eye-drops... ;-) ]] Thanks again, all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From acme at gbronline.com Sat Sep 11 17:58:26 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Get me out of here! (Plus mercury, ET-3400 docs, bogus checks, etc.) References: Message-ID: <025a01c49852$d9c31ec0$0a4f0945@thegoodw> Another Charlie/Frances survivor signing in . . . if Ivan rears his ugly head around here, I think it will be time for me to seriously consider moving to a non-hurricane-infested locale . . . Since Charlie hit, we have been without electricity for a total of 11 days -- and most of those days temps were in the mid 90s (F). So, no hot water or cooking facilities, two refrigerators full of spoiled food, approx. 80 gallons of debris I've fished out of our swimming pool (so far) . . . one more hurricane and I'll call it quits on Florida. On a more positive note -- we are still alive! --- Re mercury: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > My high school chemistry teacher let us roll it around in our hands for a > short period of time. He was one of those old-school chemists that knew > the real dangers and saftey margins of this kind of stuff and was common > sense about it. Any other teacher would have gone hysterical I'm sure. > He used to go by Doc. If you called him by his proper name he would > ignore you. My high school chem instructor had a nifty trick which I saw him perform more than once. He would swallow about a fluid ounce of mercury, then stand on his head. The mercury would roll back from his stomach into his mouth, and then he'd spit it back into the flask. --- Re ET-3400 docs: James mentioned a number of documents, then said: > I can scan these if there is interest in them. I'm interested. Please let me know when they're available. --- Re the bogus bank check scam: Someone tried this on me -- they placed an order for a large quantity of transistors and ICs on my Web site and wanted to send a bank check for a few thousand $$$ over the amount of the purchase. Some folks here suggested agreeing to the deal and then playing games with the scammer ("my dog ate it"), and someone else proposed calling the issuing bank to verify funds -- which sounds good, except that if the check is counterfeit or forged, funds verification is meaningless. Here's what the VP at my bank said: DO NOT accept delivery of any such check. If it turns out to be stolen or counterfeited, mere possession of it may be a crime and could lead to unpleasant visits by the FBI or other non-desirable characters. Stay well away from contact with anyone who suggests this "method of payment." --- Best regards to everyone on the list, Glen Goodwin http://www.acme-sales.net Electronic parts and more From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Sep 11 18:17:56 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Teletype war II Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911190729.03091270@192.168.0.1> Ouch! Another ASR33 on eBay. 30minutes to go and it's already over $700. One of the $700 losers from the other day is involved is waiting to snipe it too. This one has a platen roller handle, stand and even manuals, but looks to be missing the Teletype Logo front piece where the switch is. The last one went for $740. I'd like to watch, it's likely to be bloody. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5121272153&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Would like to have one to hear MIKBUG play again, but not that badly. Anyone have a nice ASR33 they might be willing to swap for VT131, LA100, PDP11 or MVII? Or, maybe the microfiche complete source listings for RSTS V6c? No, not all of them either. :-) Let me know off list. Unless you're thinking of putting it on eBay that is. :-) Ed K From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 11 18:27:49 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Anyone know how to set Aux port speed on Datamedia DT/80 Message-ID: <20040911232747.LIBI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>Just acquired a Datamedia DT/80 (nostalgic value - spent many 100s of >>hours in front of one of these during earlier parts of my career). > >What? You worked only a few weeks? :-) Um ... I must have a different definition of the work "many" ... :-)) >If it's a good DEC emulation, this might help. > > From the VT102 manual (which had VT100 Advanced Video and printer port >built in): > >"In Setup B, the arrow keys and SHIFT select either the modem [normal >computer port] or the printer [aux] interface features. When you hold down >SHIFT, selects modem features, selects printer >features." > >So, in Setup B, should select the printer features. > > toggles AutoPrint (line at at time). > does a print screen. > > is supposedly the "Print" key. Thanks Ed, That wasn't quite it, but it was enough of a hint to get me there - all I had to do was hit SHIFT-6 - this toggles the Aux port instead of the TX port (I could have sworn I tried that ... but it worked this time). Also find and fixed a cold solder joint on a connector that was causing the terminal to be intermittant (It was partially disassembled when I got it - sombody must have been searching for it before). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 11 18:27:53 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:05 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Message-ID: <20040911232752.LICP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Does anyone have information on error-codes that are flashed by PET disk drives >> after power-up diagnostics fail. >> >> I have a drive set which after powerup, enters into a state where it flashes the >> POWER LED alternating with both drive LEDs (together) - It repeats this flash >> cycle exactly 6 times, then pauses, then another 6 ... forever. >> >> I assume it's a diagnostic failure - Can anyone tell me what it means? > >UEs, it's a diagnostic code. From the 8050/8250 service manual (component >references will be different in other drives, I guess ) > ># flashses > >1 Zero Page 6532 UC1,UE1 >2 ROM $E000-$FFFF 2364 UL1 >3 ROM $C000-$DFFF 2364 UH1 >4 Not Used >5 Zero Page 6530 UK3 >6 RAM $1000-$13FF 2114 UC4,UC5 >7 RAM $2000-$23FF 2114 UD4,UD5 >8 RAM $3000-$33FF 2114 UE4,UE5 >9 RAM $4000-$43FF 2114 UF4,UF5 >10 Cotnroller ROM 6530 UK3 or 6502 UH3 Thanks Tony!, thats exactly what I need. [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found dead in PET hardware over the past month - other was was video RAM in a 4032] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Sep 11 18:37:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes In-Reply-To: <20040911232752.LICP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040911232752.LICP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040911233720.GA14926@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 07:27:53PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found dead in PET hardware > over the past month - other was was video RAM in a 4032] Not surprising. The first gen. of COMBOARDs used 32 x 2114... we used to see them fail more than any other type of part. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Sep-2004 23:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.8 F (-46.0 C) Windchill -82.09 F (-63.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11 kts Grid 354 Barometer 667.7 mb (11095 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Sep 11 19:20:45 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Teletype war II In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911190729.03091270@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911190729.03091270@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Ouch! > > Another ASR33 on eBay. > > 30minutes to go and it's already over $700. > One of the $700 losers from the other day is involved is waiting to snipe it > too. Went for an un-fscking-believable $810....! Now y'all watch: every ratty half-trashed ASR33 is going to be dug out of whatever mouldy hole (the which hole it should have been left in!) and get put on eBay with a $500 minbid and a $750 reserve. Then, after I_Am_Putz_Boy and all his buddies get finished bankrupting themselves - there might be a sudden supply of Teletypes in the "Oh, but I thought it was worth so much more!" category. So this might not be a Bad Thing, overall. The $810 Teletype Owner also bought an Apple III for... $166... but of course it came with SOFTWARE!!! and the original PRINTER!!!! Swoon. Cheers John From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 11 19:48:31 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Tek 8560 Message-ID: <1094950108.10126.26.camel@fiche.wps.com> So, I gather it's some PDP 11/23 like thing. Are these worthwhile to gather up? Are these useless without X, where X is a member of a list of unobtainable accessories? Or is it useful by itself (with more generic periphs). From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Sep 11 19:50:01 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: More OT: Shipping Mercury In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040911122948.03a8dc20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > Well, with everyone here having Mercury on the Brain syndrome lately > (thanks again Sellam! ;-) ) I have a question about shipping it, possibly > overseas Basically, the only restriction is that the package can't go by airmail, so its parcel post or economy surface (not Priority!). This is what Bob at the Post Office said... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From acme at gbronline.com Sat Sep 11 19:55:48 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: DOS email References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040911190729.03091270@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <026901c49863$3eba5680$0a4f0945@thegoodw> Sellam and any other interested party: SMTPOP *appears* to be a command-line DOS email utility. A quote from the Web site: Type EMAIL to logon, collect and send your email. Your mail will be collected and stored as *.cnm files. These can be loaded into Pegasus Mail as normal, or read with a basic file viewer/editor. Outgoing mail, must be stored as *.msg files, again, either by Pegasus Mail or with a basic editor. Haven't tried it. Hope it's what you want. Regards, Glen Goodwin http://www.acme-sales.net Electronic parts and more From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Sep 11 19:58:03 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: NY Times article on retro-stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hundreds of radio collectors just had an aneurysm. I think that the aneurysms are due to the radio collectors all hitting thier 90s. Seriously, cabinets to old radios are common as dirt. Sometimes at the radio shows, you can see *hundreds* of them in various conditions, and by the end of the show, most of those hundreds are either back in the sellers trucks or in the dumpster. It was very common in the 30s and 40s (and later) to chuck the guts of the radios, with the thought that the cabinets could be modified into a nice pieces of furniture. Well, very few folks actually made the modifications, so the cabinets just hung around in garages and basements. Even right now I have a cabinet to a late-20s/early-30s Fada that I am going to chop up, even though it is in pretty nice condition. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 11 20:02:00 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <4140AC59.28165.5E30318@localhost> References: <4140AC59.28165.5E30318@localhost> Message-ID: <1094950917.10126.37.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 19:17, Stan Sieler wrote: > I just got back from Boston (www.noreascon.org), where I happened > to visit the Museum of Science. On the second floor, they've got > a history of computers display with a couple of interesting > interactive displays. > > > 1. core memory The Boston Museum of Unchanging Science! My parents would take me there when I was in grade school (1965 -- 1970 or so), and they had all those nifty "high tech" things... the tic-tac-toe relay machine, split open jet engine, jacob's ladder, the vivisected dog... We'd go every year or two. Being a relatively poor kid, from a small town, I didn't know that museums were supposed to occasionally change their contents. It seems they haven't changed the displays in 30+ years! What a joke! Ironically, it makes the "core memory" thing interesting -- but core wasn't old when they built that display! Oh what a mess the U.S. is! From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 11 20:28:11 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Sat, 2004-09-11 at 14:42, John Lawson wrote: > > A simple method of sync would have to be worked out, but, being the > AnalogGeek(tm) that I am, I'd be tempted to record the bitstreams as > square-wave audio data to some kind of DAW software... I was assuming PC audio cards would not be fast enough. I am an analog person too, but not to your extent of expertise. The disk has one (or a few) timing tracks. I assumed I would record the timing track plus a data track; hence all recordings would have a reference. A stereo sound card would do this. There's no physical index pulse, it's derived from disk data. I haven't looked at the timing data for over a year, I need to RTFM before I open my mouth any more. > if you > could get a 'whole drum after this pulse' (sort of like capturing one > video frame) sync set up, then you could record each track onto a similar > parallel track in the DAW.... 1) I figured I could capture N seconds, to get N * 1/RPM copies of data, and pick the timing::data out. 2) What's "DAW"? > Recording this would be fairly tedious but apart from a high-speed > multi-track data-logger, It would get the job done. Another choice is to simply disable writing electrically, and use the computer itself. The biggest worry (at this point) is head/platter issues. THe heads contact at rest, then lift. The mechanical issues exist no matter the data-recovery method. > Another thought would be to use an external audio osc and power-amp to > slow down the drum motor and make it easier to record the track pulses and > index marks... run the motor at 10 Htz or so. Well the problem as I see it is deterioration of the magnetic surface/circuit, and changing motor speed won't improve that (probably). Lost data is secondary to a lost timing track! That would be ruinous, I have no idea how I'd re-create that. Certainly, I need a copy of that. From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Sep 11 21:24:26 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 2004-09-11 at 14:42, John Lawson wrote: >> > > I was assuming PC audio cards would not be fast enough. I am an analog > person too, but not to your extent of expertise. What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another reason to slow the drum; see below further... > > The disk has one (or a few) timing tracks. I assumed I would record the > timing track plus a data track; hence all recordings would have a > reference. A stereo sound card would do this. There's no physical index > pulse, it's derived from disk data. I haven't looked at the timing data > for over a year, I need to RTFM before I open my mouth any more. > If you could trigger a simple pulse to SMPTE converter, and if the data rate of the "index" pulse is slow enough, then your synce problems get solved... SMPTE can resolve 30/100 of a second, BTW - 100 'subframes' per video frame at 30fps - the highest video rate SMPTE was designed for. And yes, the FM needs to be consulted. [Aside: I always wanted to have a manual entitles: "The Book of Armaments"] >> if you >> could get a 'whole drum after this pulse' (sort of like capturing one >> video frame) sync set up, then you could record each track onto a similar >> parallel track in the DAW.... > > 1) I figured I could capture N seconds, to get N * 1/RPM copies of data, > and pick the timing::data out. > > 2) What's "DAW"? > Sorry. Digital Audio Workstation. I lapsed into AudioSpeak by habit. > > Another choice is to simply disable writing electrically, and use the > computer itself. The biggest worry (at this point) is head/platter > issues. THe heads contact at rest, then lift. The mechanical issues > exist no matter the data-recovery method. Yeah. I'd intercept the 'lift' line and do that manually. before spin-up, if this is at all possible. > > Well the problem as I see it is deterioration of the magnetic > surface/circuit, and changing motor speed won't improve that (probably). > Lost data is secondary to a lost timing track! That would be ruinous, I > have no idea how I'd re-create that. Certainly, I need a copy of that. On a system this old, with (relatively) large data tracks, I think that there would probably be recognizable pulses at slower speeds... Anyway, just Thoughts... Cheerz John From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 11 22:15:32 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <4140AC59.28165.5E30318@localhost> <1094950917.10126.37.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <0e7b01c49876$c4447480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Oh what a mess the U.S. is! Peaceful revolution is possible. Coming this November 2, with your help. John A. Put away that mercury bottle and vote. From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Sep 11 23:02:01 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: 2100 at smecc References: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net><013801c4961e$c866ebb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><009b01c49623$0af3fb40$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net> <00b301c496e7$8e4a43e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006c01c4987d$41b6f5e0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> Hi Jay...yes we had discussed the 7905 7906 issue... I think yu had indicated that the 06 only will look like the 05 though.... have you ever tried a 7925 or a 7920? they probably would only address out as a 05 also... but... yes the power supplies should be tested on the 2100's first.... I work best with a wicker basket of parts to sub after that point though. Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: 2100 at smecc > >> hi jay need a drive 2883 or a controller and a 79xx drive(s) > At least in my world, 2883's are unobtanium. I will check how many 7900's > I > have. If I have enough after refurbing them all, I can trade you a 7900A > drive. A 13210 controller may be more difficult. There's a catch though - > I'd rather not send a pristine 7900A that I spent a hundred hours > refurbishing into a non-working environment. Let's get the other > processors > and peripherals working first. Once they fly, then we'll talk about a > drive. > By the way, you DO know you can use a 7905, or a 7906A,B,C,D don't you? > The > latter are common as dirt it seems. > >> will have to fire up the processors and see what happens there... > You will need a diagnostic library. There's quite a few you'd need to > pass, > and at least two that should be run for an extended period. If you don't > have a diag lib, contact me off-list and I'll get you one on any of > several > media. If it was me, I'd do some serious inspection if they haven't been > powered up in years. At the very least pull all cards, progold the edge > connectors and backplane sockets, check the power supply (there's a simple > adjustment procedure). To check the power supply you need a single board > in - I think it was the IDL board, have to check. To adjust the 20v memory > supply you need the machine to warm up and the setting is based on a > temperature chart. I'd also check the backplane wirewrapping for damage, > bent pins, etc. The last thing you want to do is just hit the power switch > and pray. You may loose a set of processor cards and those aren't easy to > get. > >> if I was >> to run this system I would want a good stash of 2100s on hand... > You definitely don't need a "stash of 2100's" to run a system regularly. > At > least in my experience, the 2100's dont fail often, once you get one > running > well. Most common failure is an XY driver board or DC board. Get your two > cpu's running well, then get one spare cpu set, and a couple spare memory > boards. You should be set with that. > >> do you have any extra? > Not yet, maybe in the future. But don't you already have two? Let's spend > the time to get your existing ones working first. > > Jay > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Sep 11 23:03:22 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... References: <4140AC59.28165.5E30318@localhost> Message-ID: <007301c4987d$722be5f0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> I like the core one! sounds great Stan! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:17 PM Subject: Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... > Re: > >> Most of our displays here at the museum are pretty static..... >> >> we are looking for ideas on introducing some interactive component... >> ideas >> folks? > > I just got back from Boston (www.noreascon.org), where I happened > to visit the Museum of Science. On the second floor, they've got > a history of computers display with a couple of interesting > interactive displays. > > > 1. core memory > > They had a large size plane of core memory (about 1 foot by 1 foot) > holding a total of 6 (yes: SIX!) bits of memory. The display allowed > the visitor to press one of two buttons to select a row, and one of > three buttons to select a column. By pressing one of each (at the > same time) you stored a bit into that core (can't recall if you could > choose between 1 and 0). (And, there was an "erase" button, which may > have erased all 6 bits.) To see how the core was set, there were 6 > small compasses...one by each core. The cores were *large*, about > 1.5 to 2 inches in diameter. If you changed the setting of a bit, you > saw that bit's compass needle swing aroung 180 degrees (real compasses, > BTW). > In short, a great visual aid to understanding how core memory works. > > > 2. disk drives > > They had a model of a disk drive, with one spinning platter (18" in > diameter?) and a head mechanism (the mechanism didn't move, sigh). > The platter had two tracks of data, with about 8 bits per track, > giving the "drive" a grand total of 2 BYTES of storage. > > The visitor could press one > button to select a track, and could then press "1" or "0" (IIRC) to > record that value onto the bit ... as it passed under the disk head. > How could you tell when the bit was passing under the head? Each bit > was a magnetized donut, with one half painted red, mounted in a hole > in the platter (about a 2" hole) suspended on an "axle" that was > parallel to the platter (and capable of rotating). > I assume there was some kind of small magnet, or adequate friction, > to prevent the donut from rotating at random. The disk head was an > electromagnet, which would cause the > red half of the donut to either be attracted (leaving the red half > "face up" (let's call that a 1) or repelled (leaving the red half > "face down" (a 0). > > The head mech contained a sensor to read the value of the bits as > they passed under the head, and there were a pair of LED displays to > show the status of the 8 bits (so the disk was probably hard sectored :) > (yeah, such a displau isn't realistic, but it was nice to have.) > > Both displays were fun to use! > -- > Stan Sieler > sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html > > From aek at spies.com Sat Sep 11 23:11:28 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Tek 8560 Message-ID: <20040912041128.48D293C9C@spies.com> So, I gather it's some PDP 11/23 like thing. Are these worthwhile to gather up? -- I have the service manual on line. There are differing variants of processor and disc (5" or 8") Documentation and esp the diagnostic floppy would be a GOOD THING if they could be found. The earlier 8550 and DOS50 on floppy would also be useful. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 23:12:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Teletype war II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, John Lawson wrote: > The $810 Teletype Owner also bought an Apple III for... $166... but of > course it came with SOFTWARE!!! and the original PRINTER!!!! In one of the rare instances where I actually appreciate eBay, I once sold an Apple /// for $540. It was just the computer itself I believe (i.e. no monitor). Of course, I held the record for the highest-priced IMSAI 8080 for a while (I think it was $2,500, or was that $3,000? I can't remember anymore...). It sure came in handy for funding the VCF that year :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 23:14:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: NY Times article on retro-stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > Even right now I have a cabinet to a late-20s/early-30s Fada that I am > going to chop up, even though it is in pretty nice condition. Sell it to the Facade Computer kids! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 23:17:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive displays.... In-Reply-To: <0e7b01c49876$c4447480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, John Allain wrote: > +AD4- Oh what a mess the U.S. is+ACE- > > Peaceful revolution is possible. > Coming this November 2, with your help. > > John A. > Put away that mercury bottle and vote. Better yet, bring it with you if your precincts use papertrail-less electronic voting machines and pour it into the slot to short those bastards out! (P.S. Your e-mailer is out of whack again, Mr. Allain...see above.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 11 23:19:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Teletype war II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Of course, I held the record for the highest-priced IMSAI 8080 for a while > (I think it was $2,500, or was that $3,000? I can't remember anymore...). > It sure came in handy for funding the VCF that year :) Actually, upon remembering some more, I am pretty sure it was $3,500. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 11 23:29:49 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: Message-ID: <4143D0BD.3020309@jetnet.ab.ca> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > This gives me a crazy idea of building an all transistor replica of a simple > CPU (with maybe a serial ALU) on a large single surface mount card (suitable > for framing). Maybe even with SMT LEDs on most of the collector loads - lots > of blinkenlights! So what about memory? Transistor too? A PDP-8/S would be a good model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT diodes resistors too. > > Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 11 23:47:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes In-Reply-To: <20040911232752.LICP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 11, 4 07:27:53 pm Message-ID: > [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found dead in PET hardware > over the past month - other was was video RAM in a 4032] FWIW, I've had _lots_ of 2114s fail. I had to replace all of them in my 8050 (IIRC, if you hvave multiple RAM errors, you get the flash code for the lowest bank first, then when you've replaced those you get the code for the next bank, and so on...). I had to replace the video RAMs in my TRS-80 Model 3. And the RAM in my HP82163 video interface. And more... In my experiece the 2114 is one of the least reliable chips ever... -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 12 01:28:26 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <4143EC8A.D63D85FC@msm.umr.edu> John Bohner and I have two additional drums from LGP-30's that need same treatment. Any ideas could be put to use on more than a single system if feasible. Any ideas of comparitive characteristics of these system's drums? There is also an additional system in the San Diego Compute Museum Jim Tom Jennings wrote: > OK, I'm very close to needing to suck the data off the main memory of > this LGP-21 before I reform caps and all that electronicky stuff. > > It would be nice to have a 16-bit MHz A/D system, but I don't. Any > *practical* suggestions for someone with an extremely limited budget? I > also don't have time to build one, though it's within my skills. > > (The LGP-21 I have has a rotating magnetic main memory; bit-serial 80KHz > clock, 64 physical tracks (128 logical), 4096 31 (32) bit words, NRZ or > NRZI. I figure A/D sampling of the raw head signal at 8 to 10 times the > original clock rate will allow offline data recovery, should I smash > data on later CPU powerup.) > > The platter is driven by an AC motor. It powers up completely > independently of the rest of the computer, so I can easily do all this > before I begin the restoration. I planned on rigging up a fast opamp > buffer/amp, clip-leading it onto each head in turn (the heads are low-Z; > I do know about ground, common-mode, etc), and taking 2, 4 or a dozen > snapshots of each track. I'll make the track snapshots available to > anyone who wants them. > > If there's anything there, it would be really nice to see > 41-year-old-data. > > Practical suggestions appreciated... From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 12 01:14:43 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Get me out of here! (Plus mercury, ET-3400 docs, bogus checks, etc.) In-Reply-To: <025a01c49852$d9c31ec0$0a4f0945@thegoodw> References: <025a01c49852$d9c31ec0$0a4f0945@thegoodw> Message-ID: <9c8e20ed4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <025a01c49852$d9c31ec0$0a4f0945@thegoodw> "Glen Goodwin" wrote: > Another Charlie/Frances survivor signing in . . . if Ivan rears his > ugly head around here, I think it will be time for me to seriously > consider moving to a non-hurricane-infested locale . . . Good plan. > Since Charlie hit, we have been without electricity for a total > of 11 days -- and most of those days temps were in the mid > 90s (F). Mmm. Sunbathing weather :) (just kidding) At this moment in time, my ADSL connection is running again (after two days spent going up and down like a jack-in-the-box) - the question is 'how long will it stay up for?'... Two failures in two days, all related to the same thing - a "major equipment failure" at the local exchange. One can only wonder what BT's policy on preventive maintenance is. I'm guessing somewhere along the lines of "Waste of time". Gits. > So, no hot water or cooking facilities, two refrigerators > full of spoiled food, approx. 80 gallons of debris I've fished out of > our swimming pool (so far) . . . one more hurricane and I'll call it > quits on Florida. Kinda puts the torrential rain we've had in the UK in perspective.... > On a more positive note -- we are still alive! And that's the important thing :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI .... Earthquakes are Earth's way of saying, WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 12 04:14:09 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Tek 8560 In-Reply-To: <20040912041128.48D293C9C@spies.com> References: <20040912041128.48D293C9C@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040912111409.5c0e5252.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:11:28 -0700 (PDT) aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote: > Documentation and esp the diagnostic floppy would be a GOOD THING if > they could be found. I have a cardbox full of docs. (System admin, user and programming manuals) I really need the stand allone tools floppy. The disk needs a "fsck" and this _must_ be done with the stand allone tools. OS installation media would be great also. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 12 04:08:57 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Tek 8560 In-Reply-To: <1094950108.10126.26.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094950108.10126.26.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20040912110857.53fdcca5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:48:31 -0700 Tom Jennings wrote: > So, I gather it's some PDP 11/23 like thing. Are these worthwhile to > gather up? Are these useless without X, where X is a member of a list > of unobtainable accessories? Or is it useful by itself (with more > generic periphs). There was some discussion about this machines a while back, you may check the archives... IMHO this things are worth to be kept. AFAIK they have Shugart disk interfaces and RS232 ports for connecting terminals. The base unit itself schould be enough to run the Tek UNIX variant and do some work. This machines are not that uncommon, so you may be able to get some missing parts like manuals. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 12 06:21:26 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Message-ID: <20040912112125.SVRJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found dead in PET hardware >> over the past month - other was was video RAM in a 4032] > >FWIW, I've had _lots_ of 2114s fail. I had to replace all of them in my >8050 (IIRC, if you hvave multiple RAM errors, you get the flash code for >the lowest bank first, then when you've replaced those you get the code >for the next bank, and so on...). I had to replace the video RAMs in my >TRS-80 Model 3. And the RAM in my HP82163 video interface. And more... > >In my experiece the 2114 is one of the least reliable chips ever... I've seen a few other ones fail as well - funny, I used a LOT of 2114s in my early building (at 4 bits each - way less wire-wrapping than 2102s). Never had any trouble with them at the time, however they do not seem to age well... Btw, it is an 8050, and replacing those two chips did fix it. [Naturally, the one I pulled first was not the defective one] Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From AppleTO at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:59:08 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: NY Times article on retro-stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1047a6e60409120759540f361c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:58:03 -0400 (EDT), William Donzelli wrote: > It was very common in the 30s and 40s (and later) to chuck the guts of the > radios, with the thought that the cabinets could be modified into a nice > pieces of furniture. Well, very few folks actually made the modifications, > so the cabinets just hung around in garages and basements. It was very common in the 90s and 00s (and later) to chuck the guts of computers, with the thought that the cabinets could be modified into nice pieces of furniture. Well, very few folks actually made the modifications, so the cases just hung around in garages and basements. Seriously, I hear of people chopping up classic computers all of the time. Sometimes they put more modern computers inside. Sometimes they make them into aquariums. Sometimes they just smash them up for pleasure. While it really doesn't matter if people do that stuff most of the time, because these are mass produced items and there are plenty to go around, it is a bit concerning. Are there enough people out there to preserve most of the interesting models? And will the interesting models survive in sufficient numbers that the interested collectors aren't fighting each other for them (or bidding them out of their price range)? And yes, this is a concern. I know that I have switched over to stashing documentation and software because hardware is too bulky (and I have enough trouble preserving software from bit rot, thank-you). I suspect that others have had to specialize too. From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 12 11:21:09 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <4143D0BD.3020309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > This gives me a crazy idea of building an all transistor replica of a simple > > CPU (with maybe a serial ALU) on a large single surface mount card (suitable > > for framing). Maybe even with SMT LEDs on most of the collector loads - lots > > of blinkenlights! > > So what about memory? Transistor too? > A PDP-8/S would be a good model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT diodes > resistors too. > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Memory is a problem, one thing is to have only a little (say 16X12) with transistors or core. The other thing would be to cheat and black box it with a memory chip SMT transistors can be had for around $.01 each, diodes about the same, resistors around $.005, LEDs are still about $.03. (Assembly costs would be more than component costs) Peter Wallace From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 12 12:02:37 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: HP 1000s Classic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I noticed there's a HP1000 on ebay - 10 hours to go - no bids I guess this is a newer one (2134 A400) must be LSI I'm not interested, thought someone else might be... Peter Wallace From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Sep 12 12:19:48 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Floppy drives for the Tarbell floppy controller References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEB45@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <41448534.D96F6054@msm.umr.edu> I used Shugart 8" drives wired as address 0 thru 3 w/o problems for single density and double density. the cable is pretty much just a 50 pin idc on the tarbell controller end, and whatever fits your floppy drive on the other. I never had 5 1/4" drives wired up, though you supposedly could do so. Beware the Tarbell densities over the regular 8" single sided 256k format was not readable by much else. Jim "Cini, Richard" wrote: > Hi: > > What were the specs of the floppy drives used with the Tarbell S100 > floppy controller? I may be getting one without the drives. > > Thanks. > > Rich From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 12 13:19:45 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: HP 1000s Classic? References: Message-ID: <000a01c498f5$14fe5c00$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> yes the "A' series used RTE a. xx will NOT run rte 4. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 10:02 AM Subject: HP 1000s Classic? > > I noticed there's a HP1000 on ebay - 10 hours to go - no bids > I guess this is a newer one (2134 A400) must be LSI > > I'm not interested, thought someone else might be... > > Peter Wallace > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 12 13:24:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes In-Reply-To: <20040912112125.SVRJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 12, 4 07:21:26 am Message-ID: > > Btw, it is an 8050, and replacing those two chips did fix it. [Naturally, > the one I pulled first was not the defective one] Excellent. If you need any more help, just ask. I've got the 8050 service manual (little more than schematics and parts lists, actually) here. -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 00:23:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <4143D0BD.3020309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4143D0BD.3020309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:29:49PM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > So what about memory? Transistor too? > A PDP-8/S would be a good model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT > diodes resistors too. There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots of diodes and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, that's a lot of square footage. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Sep-2004 05:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.0 F (-53.4 C) Windchill -92 F (-68.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 328 Barometer 668.5 mb (11062. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mail at g-lenerz.de Sun Sep 12 15:16:32 2004 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Identifying old HP iron Message-ID: <55658560.20040912221632@g-lenerz.de> Hello, I've got an old HP system that I rescued from ebay. I've asked in german newsgroups but that and googling did turn up next to nothing. It's a beige machine of the stackable kind and I think I've seen Series 300 machines with Motorola CPUs in a similar enclosure. What I've got along with some HP-IB cables and a 700/92 HP terminal is: * 7957 Harddisk. This spins up and the light on the front turns green. * 9144 Tape Drive. I get some status codes on the display on the back but as long as I don't get the system up that doesn't matter very much I guess. * The main unit is labelled "HP Series 40 260" on the front. It seems to have a 5 slot backplane of some kind. 2 Slots ar occupied by the mainboard which has little else than two serial connectors. Then there is a HP-IB interface and a serial card with 3 "normal" ports and a fourth that looks somewhat like the DIN headphone connectors on audio equipment. The uppermost (fifth) slot is empty. There is a small info card in the back that informs me that the system is model "45072A". So what is this? Is this a "260" as in "successor to the 250"? The first followup question to that would be asking what the appropriate terminal settings are for connecting to that iron. I do get something on "PORT-1" of the main logic board, but no setting (from 9600 8N1 to obscure guesses as 1200 6N2) nothing yields useable results. Gerhard From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 12 15:36:28 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Identifying old HP iron References: <55658560.20040912221632@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <006901c49908$2e36ade0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> check though back emails on this list... Stan Sieler ( spelling) would know this machine. ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerhard Lenerz" To: Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 1:16 PM Subject: Identifying old HP iron > Hello, > > I've got an old HP system that I rescued from ebay. I've asked in > german newsgroups but that and googling did turn up next to nothing. > It's a beige machine of the stackable kind and I think I've seen > Series 300 machines with Motorola CPUs in a similar enclosure. > > What I've got along with some HP-IB cables and a 700/92 HP terminal > is: > > * 7957 Harddisk. This spins up and the light on the front turns > green. > * 9144 Tape Drive. I get some status codes on the display on the > back but as long as I don't get the system up that doesn't matter > very much I guess. > * The main unit is labelled "HP Series 40 260" on the front. It > seems to have a 5 slot backplane of some kind. 2 Slots ar occupied > by the mainboard which has little else than two serial connectors. > Then there is a HP-IB interface and a serial card with 3 "normal" > ports and a fourth that looks somewhat like the DIN headphone > connectors on audio equipment. The uppermost (fifth) slot is > empty. There is a small info card in the back that informs me that > the system is model "45072A". > > So what is this? Is this a "260" as in "successor to the 250"? The > first followup question to that would be asking what the appropriate > terminal settings are for connecting to that iron. I do get something > on "PORT-1" of the main logic board, but no setting (from 9600 8N1 to > obscure guesses as 1200 6N2) nothing yields useable results. > > > Gerhard > > > From vrs at msn.com Sun Sep 12 16:29:16 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <4143D0BD.3020309@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <005001c4990f$8ee44420$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:29:49PM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > So what about memory? Transistor too? > > A PDP-8/S would be a good model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT > > diodes resistors too. > > There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots of diodes > and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, that's a lot of square > footage. I'm not so sure it would be impossibly huge. If one imagined a transistor and associated passives requiring a square 0.5" on a side, then a 16" square board would have room for 32x32=1024 such elements. That seems large enough to be really impressive (without being undisplayable). Or am I missing something? Vince From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 12 16:43:19 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:29:49PM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > > So what about memory? Transistor too? > > A PDP-8/S would be a good model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT > > diodes resistors too. > > There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots of diodes > and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, that's a lot of square > footage. > Ignoring memory, I'm pretty sure could get 1000 transistors + support parts/diodes on a 12x12" card. Doing the component placement would be a pain however. > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Sep-2004 05:20 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.0 F (-53.4 C) Windchill -92 F (-68.90 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 328 Barometer 668.5 mb (11062. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 18:24:40 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <005001c4990f$8ee44420$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> <005001c4990f$8ee44420$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040912232440.GA19715@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 02:29:16PM -0700, vrs wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots of diodes > > and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, that's a lot of square > > footage. > > I'm not so sure it would be impossibly huge. If one imagined a transistor > and associated passives requiring a square 0.5" on a side, then a 16" square > board would have room for 32x32=1024 such elements. That seems large enough > to be really impressive (without being undisplayable). > > Or am I missing something? Turn the problem around - the PDP-8/S has a backplane that is approximately 16" x 30" with over 100 Flip Chips. If you were to attempt to turn that particular design into a single planar board of the same size, the contents of each Flip Chip would have to fit into the same square area as one back- plane slot (about 0.5" x 3.5"). I don't doubt that any of those circuits would fit in 2 sq in, that's for a 16"x30" board. Of course, a significant volume of the PDP-8/S is devoted to the core plane and core circuits, so perhaps it would fit in 16"x16". Just keep in mind how many square feet of thru-hole space is _in_ a PDP-8... SMT will reduce the amount of space required, but there is a lot of space to reduce. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Sep-2004 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.1 F (-42.9 C) Windchill -73.40 F (-58.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.80 kts Grid 312 Barometer 671.1 mb (10965. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 12 18:37:49 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here to make a decision, one or the other. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 12 19:00:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife > said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here > to make a decision, one or the other. Well, considering the circumstances, I guess it's time to bust out with the soldering iron and oscilloscope and get crackin'! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 12 19:12:58 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> References: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> Message-ID: >I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my >wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I >am here to make a decision, one or the other. What kind? :^) Warning the hobby is the path to madness :^) I *really* recommend focusing on one or two computers, rather than trying to build a big collection. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 12 19:18:39 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040912232440.GA19715@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 02:29:16PM -0700, vrs wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots of diodes > > > and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, that's a lot of square > > > footage. > > > > I'm not so sure it would be impossibly huge. If one imagined a transistor > > and associated passives requiring a square 0.5" on a side, then a 16" square > > board would have room for 32x32=1024 such elements. That seems large enough > > to be really impressive (without being undisplayable). > > > > Or am I missing something? > > Turn the problem around - the PDP-8/S has a backplane that is approximately > 16" x 30" with over 100 Flip Chips. If you were to attempt to turn that > particular design into a single planar board of the same size, the contents > of each Flip Chip would have to fit into the same square area as one back- > plane slot (about 0.5" x 3.5"). I don't doubt that any of those circuits > would fit in 2 sq in, that's for a 16"x30" board. Of course, a significant > volume of the PDP-8/S is devoted to the core plane and core circuits, so > perhaps it would fit in 16"x16". Just keep in mind how many square feet of > thru-hole space is _in_ a PDP-8... SMT will reduce the amount of space > required, but there is a lot of space to reduce. > > -ethan > Actually I doubt I would have trouble fitting most Flip Chips onto 1 sq inch with not even very current SMT tech: 0603 resistors/caps, sc70 transistors/diodes. Memory is a problem though. I wonder what is the simplest commercial serial CPU ever made? (kicking himself for giving away the PDP8-S that he had many years ago) > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Sep-2004 23:10 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.1 F (-42.9 C) Windchill -73.40 F (-58.6 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 9.80 kts Grid 312 Barometer 671.1 mb (10965. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Sep 12 19:38:17 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> References: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040912203515.032a9860@mail.earthlink.net> at least your wife gave you a choice! My stuff to my wife is junk no matter what...It is better now that she lives in Washington state and I live in Virginia. Let us know what you have and maybe we can help or it is also a great forum for finding good homes for some you may choose not to keep. At 07:37 PM 09/12/2004, Jim Isbell wrote: >I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife >said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here to >make a decision, one or the other. From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 12 19:40:53 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: New to the list References: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> Message-ID: <00fc01c4992a$561cca20$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> Welcome to the group Jim! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell" To: "Mail List for Computer Talk" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 4:37 PM Subject: New to the list >I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife > said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here > to make a decision, one or the other. > > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Sep 12 20:45:53 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: <20040912112125.SVRJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: Dave Dunfield wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found > >> dead in PET hardware over the past month - other was > >> was video RAM in a 4032] > > > >FWIW, I've had _lots_ of 2114s fail. I had to replace all > >of them in my 8050 (IIRC, if you hvave multiple RAM errors, > >you get the flash code for the lowest bank first, then when > >you've replaced those you get the code for the next bank, > >and so on...). I had to replace the video RAMs in my TRS-80 > >Model 3. And the RAM in my HP82163 video interface. And more... > > > >In my experiece the 2114 is one of the least reliable chips > >ever... > > I've seen a few other ones fail as well - funny, I used a LOT > of 2114s in my early building (at 4 bits each - way less > wire-wrapping than 2102s). Never had any trouble with them at > the time, however they do not seem to age well... Another data point plus an "Arg!"... Ohio Scientific was quite fond of 2114s (Arg!). It looks like the cause of the power supply failure in my C4P is that one of the 24K memory cards (48 2114s) was drawing well over spec, even though it appeared to be providing reliable memory operation. It was populated with the LC (low power CMOS) 2114 chip. According to specs on the web, these should draw 40 milliamps max. I pulled 10 at random. Not one pulled less than 70. Now, I tested them with all pins floating other than power and ground and I wonder how much difference that makes, but totaling up an average of 75 per chip gives about what the card as a whole draws when in operation. The other card, populated with another vendors 2114s, draws over 1/2 amp less when in operation, reflecting about 42 milliamps per chip. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sun Sep 12 20:50:26 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts Message-ID: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> Specifically a print cylinder and a new pad for the print hammer. Does anyone know of a source for these two items? The pad on the print hammer has disintegrated and the underlying metal has been pounding on the print cylinder. This has caused some of the letters images to be deformed so that only the top half of the letter prints. A new print cylinder would be virtually impossible to fabricate, so I need to find a new or used one. I can try to replace the pad with something I have, because I don't want to damage the cylinder any more than it already is. What was the original material: rubber, leather? Anyone tried this before? Ribbons are still commonly available though, I bought one at Staples for US$2.97 this afternoon. -chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Sep 12 21:31:39 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:06 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040912232440.GA19715@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > Turn the problem around - the PDP-8/S has a backplane that is approximately > 16" x 30" with over 100 Flip Chips. If you were to attempt to turn that > particular design into a single planar board of the same size, the contents > of each Flip Chip would have to fit into the same square area as one back- > plane slot (about 0.5" x 3.5"). The PDP-8/s seems dense, but it is mostly air! While DEC made some nice architectures, their mechanical people were a little behind the times. The integration density of those old Flip Chips is pretty horrible, compared with most other computer manufacturers. Think of the precentage of those 100+ Flip Chips that is blank board. I am sure you could get a PDP-8/s come onto a 12 by 12 board, but I bet that would be one expensive assembly! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 21:38:23 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: References: <20040912232440.GA19715@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 10:31:39PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > The PDP-8/s seems dense, but it is mostly air! True. > I am sure you could get a PDP-8/s come onto a 12 by 12 board, but I bet > that would be one expensive assembly! With both sides in play, that seems likely, but a 12"x12" board is going to be pricy (at least there won't be many through-holes, just vias; those things add up). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.8 F (-43.8 C) Windchill -77.40 F (-60.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 321 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 21:15:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> References: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:50:26PM -0400, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Specifically a print cylinder and a new pad for the print hammer. Does > anyone know of a source for these two items? The last time I bought consumables for my ASR-33, it was from Western Numeric Controls. They used to have the pads... I bought a couple because both of mine had turned to jelly. Fortunately, that was in storage, not in use, so I never deformed my print cylinder. > I can try to replace the pad with something I have, because I don't want > to damage the cylinder any more than it already is. What was the > original material: rubber, leather? Anyone tried this before? I have heard that people have successfully glued rubber feet (sold by the sheet for attaching to the bottoms of enclosures) to the hammer. I would be surprised if those lasted as long as the original, but with frequent inspection, it might be OK. The originals are rubber, BTW, with a lip to hang on the ring on the hammer. You kinda slide them on from one side, then roll them around until the pad lip locks around the hammer ring. > Ribbons are still commonly available though, I bought one at Staples for > US$2.97 this afternoon. Right... fortunately, it's a *very* common ribbon (and it can be re-inked if you really have to). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.4 F (-43.0 C) Windchill -73.8 F (-58.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.80 kts Grid 322 Barometer 671.5 mb (10949. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 12 22:20:32 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts References: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <019601c49940$a0cf66c0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> I remember when we used to get some that were dried out we would unroll them and spray with wd40 to juice them up a bit! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: Re: ASR-33 repair parts > On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:50:26PM -0400, Charles H. Dickman wrote: >> Specifically a print cylinder and a new pad for the print hammer. Does >> anyone know of a source for these two items? > > The last time I bought consumables for my ASR-33, it was from Western > Numeric Controls. They used to have the pads... I bought a couple > because both of mine had turned to jelly. Fortunately, that was in > storage, not in use, so I never deformed my print cylinder. > >> I can try to replace the pad with something I have, because I don't want >> to damage the cylinder any more than it already is. What was the >> original material: rubber, leather? Anyone tried this before? > > I have heard that people have successfully glued rubber feet (sold by the > sheet for attaching to the bottoms of enclosures) to the hammer. I would > be surprised if those lasted as long as the original, but with frequent > inspection, it might be OK. > > The originals are rubber, BTW, with a lip to hang on the ring on the > hammer. > You kinda slide them on from one side, then roll them around until the pad > lip locks around the hammer ring. > >> Ribbons are still commonly available though, I bought one at Staples for >> US$2.97 this afternoon. > > Right... fortunately, it's a *very* common ribbon (and it can be re-inked > if you really have to). > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 02:00 > Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45.4 F (-43.0 C) Windchill -73.8 F > (-58.8 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 9.80 kts Grid 322 Barometer 671.5 mb (10949. > ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Sep 12 22:28:56 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > The last time I bought consumables for my ASR-33, it was from Western > Numeric Controls. They used to have the pads... I bought a couple > because both of mine had turned to jelly. Fortunately, that was in > storage, not in use, so I never deformed my print cylinder. I have #180598 typewheels in stock, if anyone needs them. Brand new in the wrappings. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Sep 12 22:35:17 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > With both sides in play, that seems likely, but a 12"x12" board is going > to be pricy (at least there won't be many through-holes, just vias; those > things add up). Exactly. I think a six layer board would be needed, but maybe with some extremely optimized routing, maybe a four layer. Either way, I doubt there would be a whole bunch of unused real estate left (or money in your pocket). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 22:55:47 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <019601c49940$a0cf66c0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> References: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> <019601c49940$a0cf66c0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <20040913035547.GA9817@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 08:20:32PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > I remember when we used to get some that were dried out we would unroll > them and spray with wd40 to juice them up a bit! I know people who did that... given that wd-40 is a good _solvent_, it would work fine... not sure about long term issues, but as surface of the print cylinder doesn't ever get lubricated, I can't imagine how it would be harmful. Just don't start spraying it in the works or you are likely to wash away the proper oils and greases that _should_ be there (or at least be prepared to do a proper lube job after you wash away any old lubricant). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -85.3 F (-65.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 329 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 23:02:06 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 11:35:17PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > With both sides in play, that seems likely, but a 12"x12" board is going > > to be pricy (at least there won't be many through-holes, just vias; those > > things add up). > > Exactly. I think a six layer board would be needed, but maybe with some > extremely optimized routing, maybe a four layer. Either way, I doubt there > would be a whole bunch of unused real estate left (or money in your > pocket). One could always trade-off between a larger, emptier board and fewer layers. I haven't priced multi-layer boards in a while, but we used to use 6-layer boards for Qbus and Unibus designs... ground, Vcc, 2 sets of horizontal and two sets of vertical traces to avoid routing problems, but that was with a 100% thru-hole design. VAXBI boards were crazier with 10 layers (mandated by DEC) - the additional layers tended towards the diagonals, also to solve routing issues with dense thru-hole designs. An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to debug I would imagine. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -85.3 F (-65.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 329 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 23:06:38 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: References: <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040913040638.GD9817@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 11:28:56PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > The last time I bought consumables for my ASR-33, it was from Western > > Numeric Controls. They used to have the pads... I bought a couple > > because both of mine had turned to jelly. Fortunately, that was in > > storage, not in use, so I never deformed my print cylinder. > > I have #180598 typewheels in stock, if anyone needs them. Brand new in the > wrappings. Is 'typewheel' the official name for the ASR-33 cylinder? I'd be curious how much for a new one - after all both of my ASR-33s have had a lot of use, and a new type element would certainly crisp things up (I have one working and one 'needs-lots-of-adjustment' mechanism). I've been selecting the best parts for my 20mA DEC-interfaced TTY in favor of the former-wire-service TTY w/110 baud modem (like the two boxy ones that we got from you in NJ a couple of years ago)... I'd restore that one, but long, long ago, I removed the touch-tone keypad and I didn't write down the wiring arrangement... I _think_ I know which keypad it is (I have several), but I don't know how to reattach it. So... in the meantime, the PDP-8 has a TTY and my phone line does not (the DEC TTY has a reader-run relay add-on, so it's not like I could use the second TTY as a console, anyway). Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.2 F (-47.9 C) Windchill -87.40 F (-66.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.8 kts Grid 324 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Sep 12 23:12:26 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <20040913040638.GD9817@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > Is 'typewheel' the official name for the ASR-33 cylinder? I'd be curious > how much for a new one - after all both of my ASR-33s have had a lot of > use, and a new type element would certainly crisp things up (I have one > working and one 'needs-lots-of-adjustment' mechanism). At least the military called the Typewheels. The FSN is 5815-027-4404. $15, new in the package. I guess you an Dan missed that box... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vrs at msn.com Sun Sep 12 23:28:25 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <00ae01c4994a$1cb3edc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > debug I would imagine. One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug at the module level before tackling the whole thing. Vince From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 12 23:37:08 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > With both sides in play, that seems likely, but a 12"x12" board is going > > to be pricy (at least there won't be many through-holes, just vias; those > > things add up). > > Exactly. I think a six layer board would be needed, but maybe with some > extremely optimized routing, maybe a four layer. Either way, I doubt there > would be a whole bunch of unused real estate left (or money in your > pocket). > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > I think its doable on single sided 12" square or so but I wouldn't know for sure until I tried a small piece We pay about $.33 per sq inch for 4 layers, maybe $.45 for six layers so I doubt the PCB would be more than $50-70, especially if I let it hitchike on one of our production mixed panels. Routing would be a pain, my guess is that it would take 6 layers if autorouted but probably 4 like you say if carefully placed and hand routed. BTW none of our current PCB vendors count vias or holes anymore when quoting, only total area. Peter Wallace From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 23:40:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <00ae01c4994a$1cb3edc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> <00ae01c4994a$1cb3edc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040913044048.GD16457@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:28:25PM -0700, vrs wrote: > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > > debug I would imagine. > > One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx > modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug at > the module level before tackling the whole thing. One could, but the interconnection thing would be a killer - I suppose the cheapest way to do it might be a "fatherboard" arrangement with a nest of pins for the backplane, and pin receptacles on the modules (though the more traditional pins-on-the-module-and-sockets-on-the-motherboard would be about the same cost, probably). In the case of a PDP-8 design, there are several busses that might have to be run, but you could sort-of cheat and aggregate the registers (like is done with the 6 x M220 cards in an -8/i or -8/L) to group things together. I would expect that in addition to the registers themselves (AC, MD, MA...) whatever memory there was would fit nicely in the same area. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 04:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.6 F (-47.6 C) Windchill -83.90 F (-64.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.69 kts Grid 339 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 12 23:51:47 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040913045147.GE16457@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:37:08PM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > BTW none of our current PCB vendors count > vias or holes anymore when quoting, only total area. That's a nice change from the past (not that it affects most commercial designs, I'm sure). How is gold priced these days? The last board I had made in bulk was the GG2 Bus+ board - huge by many standards - big enough for a 100-pin Zorro edge plus a full ISA bus (36 + 62 pins). At q. 100, I was getting them for about $15 blank, plus shipping, after setup charges (2 layer) I've always wanted to make a successor to the Qbus COMBOARD (since I have exactly one working one left, one blank PCB, and one assembled unit I pried off the trade show booth that was probably DOA in 1985). The trick would be cost - a 1 sq ft 6 layer board with lots of gold at the bottom - I'm sure I couldn't afford to make more than a proto run, just because it would be for personal use, not a commercial product (what I _wish_ I could find would be a couple original ones from the field on the 3rd party market, but we were never as prolific with our Qbus boards as, say, Simpact, so nobody trades our old stuff). I'd probably redesign it to replace the parallel port with a SCSI port. 2 x serial + SCSI is more interesting these days than 2 x serial + line printer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 04:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53 F (-47.3 C) Windchill -85.7 F (-65.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.6 kts Grid 342 Barometer 671.7 mb (10941. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Sep 13 00:17:51 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts References: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> <20040913021539.GA2201@bos7.spole.gov> <019601c49940$a0cf66c0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> <20040913035547.GA9817@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <01e701c49951$043b6aa0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> nope! just used it on the Ribbon! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 8:55 PM Subject: Re: ASR-33 repair parts > On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 08:20:32PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: >> I remember when we used to get some that were dried out we would unroll >> them and spray with wd40 to juice them up a bit! > > I know people who did that... given that wd-40 is a good _solvent_, it > would work fine... not sure about long term issues, but as surface of > the print cylinder doesn't ever get lubricated, I can't imagine how it > would be harmful. > > Just don't start spraying it in the works or you are likely to wash away > the proper oils and greases that _should_ be there (or at least be > prepared > to do a proper lube job after you wash away any old lubricant). > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 03:50 > Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -85.3 F > (-65.2 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 329 Barometer 671.6 mb (10945. > ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 00:16:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> from "Charles H. Dickman" at Sep 12, 4 09:50:26 pm Message-ID: > I can try to replace the pad with something I have, because I don't want Unfortunately even NOS hammer pads have decayed by now (or at least the couple I have have). I am told that a stick-on rubber cabinet foot, suitable shaped and stuch on the hammer, is OK for testing. No idea how well it will hold out in use, but it will protect the type cylinder > to damage the cylinder any more than it already is. What was the > original material: rubber, leather? Anyone tried this before? Some kind of 'synthetic rubber' -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 02:49:58 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away in So Cal. Message-ID: <20040913074958.99561.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Hello world, I have two AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away. You pay shipping only. And also a Snickers bar. Steve located near Santa Ana CA. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Sep 13 03:49:32 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> Message-ID: <000001c4996e$96fa12c0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Welcome to the list, Jim! I've got the same basic problem (a garage full of gear and a wife who is only marginally supportive) but it's still a fun hobby! I hope you get to keep all or at least most of your stuff! Good luck! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Isbell Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 4:38 PM To: Mail List for Computer Talk Subject: New to the list I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here to make a decision, one or the other. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 13 07:19:00 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: laptop incident Message-ID: <007901c4998b$d9f480c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Had a snafu with my laptop at home (read: a reason not to use XP). As a result, for a few days I will only be able to check classiccmp email (easily) at work. Anyone who's been trying to reach me, my apologies! Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 13 07:28:15 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: 2100 at smecc References: <005a01c4961d$be2f37c0$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net><013801c4961e$c866ebb0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><009b01c49623$0af3fb40$6b292145@wlr.tus.wayport.net><00b301c496e7$8e4a43e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <006c01c4987d$41b6f5e0$4de5e444@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <008e01c4998d$246a4800$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Ed wrote... > Hi Jay...yes we had discussed the 7905 7906 issue... I think yu had > indicated that the 06 only will look like the 05 though.... Correct, but that's still a good working drive with lots of space, much more than a 7900 :) > have you ever > tried a 7925 or a 7920? Nope > they probably would only address out as a 05 > also... but... Nope, the 20 is visible as a 20. I don't think the 25 is supported but I could be very wrong about that. > yes the power supplies should be tested on the 2100's first.... I work best > with a wicker basket of parts to sub after that point though. OK. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 08:18:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: simh qustions References: Message-ID: <16709.40480.122000.166676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> simh PDP11 / RSTS/E >> >> Can other machines on my network attach to the simulated PDP11 via >> telnet? what port? Zane> I'm not sure what the current state of SIMH networking is, Zane> especially on the Mac (which I believe you're using) even Zane> though I'm typing this on a G5. The last time I tried the SIMH Zane> networking was probably a couple years ago now. I've heard Zane> good things about networking support under SIMH VAX. Zane> I've had good luck with networking RT-11, RSX-11M, and RSX-11M+ Zane> using E11 running on Linux, however I never could get DECnet or Zane> LAT to work under RSTS/E when running on E11 (of course I've Zane> had enough trouble with a real PDP-11 and RSTS/E networking). E11 and RSTS networking (DECnet, that is -- haven't tried LAT) is perfectly straightforward, it works as documented. I used it to talk to DECnet/Linux, which worked fine. Haven't tried RSTS on SIMH at all, should do that one of these days... paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 13 08:41:11 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <007901c4998b$d9f480c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <007901c4998b$d9f480c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <4145A377.9020401@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Had a snafu with my laptop at home (read: a reason not to use XP). As a And G4 PowerBooks are going for well under 2 grand these days. :) Once you go Mac, you'll never go back. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 13 10:24:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: laptop incident References: <007901c4998b$d9f480c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <4145A377.9020401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <014401c499a5$b3a4ebc0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Once you go Mac, you'll never go back. I hear OSX is basically FreeBSD. That's a good reason to switch to me :) --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 10:44:56 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: John> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> On Sat, 2004-09-11 at 14:42, John Lawson wrote: >>> >> I was assuming PC audio cards would not be fast enough. I am an >> analog person too, but not to your extent of expertise. John> What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another John> reason to slow the drum; see below further... No, don't do that. The heads might not fly if you do that, and you'd end up with an instant head crash on every head. Digitizing at 8 bits, more if you can get it easily, and minimally 8x the data clock rate sounds like the way to go. That's clearly more than the original used. The argument for doing so is that it will give you a way to recover data that would not be recoverable with the original electronics. Evaluation boards from A/D chip makers may be a good cheap way to get this. Alternatively, low end digital oscilloscope cards. There's a company named GaGe that's in that business, but I don't know their prices (or anything else about them); there are bound to be plenty more. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 10:52:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16709.49697.9000.124120@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Peter" == Peter C Wallace writes: Peter> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:29:49PM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > So >> what about memory? Transistor too? > A PDP-8/S would be a good >> model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT > diodes resistors >> too. >> >> There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots >> of diodes and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, >> that's a lot of square footage. >> Peter> Ignoring memory, I'm pretty sure could get 1000 transistors + Peter> support parts/diodes on a 12x12" card. Doing the component Peter> placement would be a pain however. Why? A good light, magnifying glass or small stereo microscope, fine tip soldering iron, fine solder, and flux -- plus patience. No sweat. paul From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Sep 13 10:56:23 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 8:31 AM -0700 9/11/04, Ron Hudson wrote: >I think this would get the terminal to login to the BSD unix >underlying Mac os x, and perhaps from there I can telnet into the >PDP11 sim. That's correct. Today one must log in to the native system and telnet to the loopback interface on the correct port. >I was hoping the terminal could somehow directly connect to the sim, >but telneting would be good. The current version of SIMH does not have the facility to map simulated devices (particularly serial ports) onto local physical devices (such as /dev/tty...). Bob is working on this for a future release. John From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 10:57:12 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040912232440.GA19715@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16709.50008.853000.341776@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 10:31:39PM -0400, William Donzelli Ethan> wrote: >> The PDP-8/s seems dense, but it is mostly air! Ethan> True. >> I am sure you could get a PDP-8/s come onto a 12 by 12 board, but >> I bet that would be one expensive assembly! Ethan> With both sides in play, that seems likely, but a 12"x12" Ethan> board is going to be pricy (at least there won't be many Ethan> through-holes, just vias; those things add up). If you have a PCB shop that charges for vias, that is. The ones I've looked at do not, they just charge for square inches. For example, up to 80 square inches, 4 layers, quantity 5, $50 each from one company. Judging by the other prices, 144 square inches might be $70-$80 or so. paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 13 11:13:40 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <16709.49697.9000.124120@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913121005.02b34b08@192.168.0.1> At 11:52 AM 9/13/2004, you wrote: > Peter> Ignoring memory, I'm pretty sure could get 1000 transistors + > Peter> support parts/diodes on a 12x12" card. Doing the component > Peter> placement would be a pain however. > >Why? A good light, magnifying glass or small stereo microscope, fine >tip soldering iron, fine solder, and flux -- plus patience. No sweat. Placement is still a pain, but the soldering part might have been relieved some. Since it's getting tougher and tougher to find through hole components, next PCB design I do, I'm planning on doing as much SMT as I can. I'm going to investigate the toaster oven solder method also: http://www.pcbexpress.com/stencils/index.php Ed From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon Sep 13 11:17:42 2004 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts Message-ID: <13d.1107f35.2e772226@aol.com> Try dataterm Inc. out of Woburn,MA. Lots of TTY parts. tel#781-938-1010 From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 11:19:04 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040912052300.GC1789@bos7.spole.gov> <5.2.0.9.2.20040913121005.02b34b08@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16709.51320.640000.686469@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> At 11:52 AM 9/13/2004, you wrote: Peter> Ignoring memory, I'm pretty sure could get 1000 transistors + Peter> support parts/diodes on a 12x12" card. Doing the component Peter> placement would be a pain however. >> Why? A good light, magnifying glass or small stereo microscope, >> fine tip soldering iron, fine solder, and flux -- plus patience. >> No sweat. Ed> Placement is still a pain, but the soldering part might have been Ed> relieved some. Placement: tweezers and tooth picks. Ed> Since it's getting tougher and tougher to find through hole Ed> components, next PCB design I do, I'm planning on doing as much Ed> SMT as I can. Ed> I'm going to investigate the toaster oven solder method also: Ed> http://www.pcbexpress.com/stencils/index.php I saw that. It makes sense for BGA parts where you have no choice (short of sending it to a pro). I wouldn't use it for anything else. It's hard to believe that there is enough temperature control to keep from frying stuff. And you have to place (and secure) all the pieces without dislodging any. Far easier to place individual parts one by one and solder them as you go. I watched a professional technician assembling prototype boards that way -- several hundred small passive parts, active components up to 240 lead flatpacks. I applied her approach on a somewhat smaller scale -- perhaps 150 capacitors, a few dozen resistors and resistor arrays, ASICs up to 120 leads. Again, no sweat. paul From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Sep 13 11:37:24 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > > John> What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another > John> reason to slow the drum; see below further... > > No, don't do that. The heads might not fly if you do that, and you'd > end up with an instant head crash on every head. I was (mistakenly?) assuming that we were trying to recover data from a *drum* ... if this is a platter, and the heads are spaced courtesy of Mr. Bernoulli - then slowing down the rotation would in fact be a Bad Idea... Cheers John From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 11:41:50 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16709.52686.694000.345481@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: John> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >> John> What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another John> reason to slow the drum; see below further... >> No, don't do that. The heads might not fly if you do that, and >> you'd end up with an instant head crash on every head. John> I was (mistakenly?) assuming that we were trying to recover John> data from a *drum* ... if this is a platter, and the heads are John> spaced courtesy of Mr. Bernoulli - then slowing down the John> rotation would in fact be a Bad Idea... Drums have flying heads, too. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 13 11:36:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: RA60 packs available Message-ID: <01b101c499af$e3809d80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> A contact of mine has a bunch of RA60 packs he'd like to sell. If interested please contact me offlist. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 13 11:46:27 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <74D15169-05A4-11D9-BFAB-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 13, 2004, at 8:56 AM, John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 8:31 AM -0700 9/11/04, Ron Hudson wrote: >> I think this would get the terminal to login to the BSD unix >> underlying Mac os x, and perhaps from there I can telnet into the >> PDP11 sim. > > That's correct. Today one must log in to the native system and telnet > to the loopback interface on the correct port. > >> I was hoping the terminal could somehow directly connect to the sim, >> but telneting would be good. > > The current version of SIMH does not have the facility to map > simulated devices (particularly serial ports) onto local physical > devices (such as /dev/tty...). Bob is working on this for a future > release. Do you think that (on the windows version) "att lp0 lpt1:" would work? or I suppose "att lp0 /dev/lp0" > > John > From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Sep 13 11:57:26 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <74D15169-05A4-11D9-BFAB-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <9CC43432-0407-11D9-BF74-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <74D15169-05A4-11D9-BFAB-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 9:46 AM -0700 9/13/04, Ron Hudson wrote: >On Sep 13, 2004, at 8:56 AM, John A. Dundas III wrote: > >>At 8:31 AM -0700 9/11/04, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>I think this would get the terminal to login to the BSD unix >>>underlying Mac os x, and perhaps from there I can telnet into the >>>PDP11 sim. >> >>That's correct. Today one must log in to the native system and >>telnet to the loopback interface on the correct port. >> >>>I was hoping the terminal could somehow directly connect to the >>>sim, but telneting would be good. >> >>The current version of SIMH does not have the facility to map >>simulated devices (particularly serial ports) onto local physical >>devices (such as /dev/tty...). Bob is working on this for a future >>release. > >Do you think that (on the windows version) "att lp0 lpt1:" would work? >or I suppose "att lp0 /dev/lp0" I am not at all familiar with SIMH operation under Windows. It is possible that it might work mostly correctly, but I wouldn't count on it. John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 12:02:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Message-ID: <200409131702.KAA26416@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> [If it is a 2114, it will be the second one I've found dead in PET hardware >> over the past month - other was was video RAM in a 4032] > >FWIW, I've had _lots_ of 2114s fail. I had to replace all of them in my >8050 (IIRC, if you hvave multiple RAM errors, you get the flash code for >the lowest bank first, then when you've replaced those you get the code >for the next bank, and so on...). I had to replace the video RAMs in my >TRS-80 Model 3. And the RAM in my HP82163 video interface. And more... > >In my experiece the 2114 is one of the least reliable chips ever... > >-tony > Hi Compared to the 2111's, the 2114's are really quite good. Dwight From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 13 12:18:33 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <00ae01c4994a$1cb3edc0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > > debug I would imagine. > > One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx > modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug at > the module level before tackling the whole thing. > > Vince > Thats something I could do as a feasability experiment Are the schematics of the (say dual FF that used for the registers) on line anywhere? I could sneek that on my next mixed 4 layer panel Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 13 12:22:53 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040913045147.GE16457@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:37:08PM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > BTW none of our current PCB vendors count > > vias or holes anymore when quoting, only total area. > > That's a nice change from the past (not that it affects most > commercial designs, I'm sure). How is gold priced these days? > The last board I had made in bulk was the GG2 Bus+ board - huge > by many standards - big enough for a 100-pin Zorro edge plus > a full ISA bus (36 + 62 pins). At q. 100, I was getting them > for about $15 blank, plus shipping, after setup charges (2 layer) We dont do too much gold (only the occasional PCI card) dont thgain that cost us much extra but its on a panel with many other cards so I'm not really sure > > I've always wanted to make a successor to the Qbus COMBOARD (since > I have exactly one working one left, one blank PCB, and one assembled > unit I pried off the trade show booth that was probably DOA in 1985). > The trick would be cost - a 1 sq ft 6 layer board with lots of gold > at the bottom - I'm sure I couldn't afford to make more than a proto > run, just because it would be for personal use, not a commercial > product (what I _wish_ I could find would be a couple original ones > from the field on the 3rd party market, but we were never as prolific > with our Qbus boards as, say, Simpact, so nobody trades our old stuff). > I'd probably redesign it to replace the parallel port with a SCSI port. > 2 x serial + SCSI is more interesting these days than 2 x serial + > line printer. > > -ethan The size is what gets you, Maybe a 2 layer father card with a small SMT 6 or 8 layer daughter card would be cheaper... > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 04:40 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53 F (-47.3 C) Windchill -85.7 F (-65.40 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 11.6 kts Grid 342 Barometer 671.7 mb (10941. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 13 12:21:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <20040913044048.GD16457@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 09:28:25PM -0700, vrs wrote: > > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > > > debug I would imagine. > > > > One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx > > modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug at > > the module level before tackling the whole thing. > > One could, but the interconnection thing would be a killer - I suppose the > cheapest way to do it might be a "fatherboard" arrangement with a nest of > pins for the backplane, and pin receptacles on the modules (though the > more traditional pins-on-the-module-and-sockets-on-the-motherboard would > be about the same cost, probably). In the case of a PDP-8 design, there > are several busses that might have to be run, but you could sort-of cheat > and aggregate the registers (like is done with the 6 x M220 cards in an > -8/i or -8/L) to group things together. I would expect that in addition > to the registers themselves (AC, MD, MA...) whatever memory there was would > fit nicely in the same area. BTW, this would probably make for an award winning exhibit at the VCF ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 13 12:28:05 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <16709.49697.9000.124120@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Peter" == Peter C Wallace writes: > > Peter> On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 10:29:49PM -0600, Ben Franchuk wrote: > So > >> what about memory? Transistor too? > A PDP-8/S would be a good > >> model to pick from. Note you need a lot of SMT > diodes resistors > >> too. > >> > >> There are approximately 1000 transistors in a PDP-8/S (plus lots > >> of diodes and resistors and the core stack). Even with SMT, > >> that's a lot of square footage. > >> > > Peter> Ignoring memory, I'm pretty sure could get 1000 transistors + > Peter> support parts/diodes on a 12x12" card. Doing the component > Peter> placement would be a pain however. > > Why? A good light, magnifying glass or small stereo microscope, fine > tip soldering iron, fine solder, and flux -- plus patience. No sweat. > > paul Oh not so much assembly, though that would be a might bit tedious by hand, what I was talking about was the first part of the PCB layout: Placement > Peter Wallace From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 13 06:51:41 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <014401c499a5$b3a4ebc0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <007901c4998b$d9f480c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <4145A377.9020401@mdrconsult.com> <014401c499a5$b3a4ebc0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <414589CD.8070609@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: >> Once you go Mac, you'll never go back. > > I hear OSX is basically FreeBSD. That's a good reason to switch to me :) Nope. OS X is basically OpenSTEP. The OS X Unix API is basically FreeBSD. Although successive generations of OS X are dropping more and more of the OpenSTEP Netinfo insanity in favor of flat-file configuration. Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best of UNIX. It's lovely. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 13 12:36:38 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> I like this approach in theory. I think it has great long-term potential for data recovery and preservation for our hobby. Anyone care to give a thumbnail sketch of what sampling rates would be necessary to digitize the signals on recording media (3 1/2", 5 1/4", 8" floppy, hard disks, drums, disk packs, etc.) at sufficient rates to preserve the encoding for post-processing in other tools? I saw one reference online that said 3 1/2" and 5 1/4" floppies were 250-500 kbit/s. If we were digitizing at a much higher rate than the original simple circuitry that might've only detected flux traversals, couldn't we recover more data? - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 13 12:56:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095098161.14282.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 10:21 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > BTW, this would probably make for an award winning exhibit at the VCF ;) Hmm, now that's just given me an idea. Like most museums, we're perpetually tight on display space - but it just occurred to me that we're not making any use of the ceiling :-) Perfect place to lay out a homebrew machine on an enormous scale... (apart from all your visitors ending up with neck ache, I suppose) It'd be quite interesting to lay out some simulated logic on a huge scale though, with large LED's pulsing to show current flow down wires and the like... seeya Jules From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Mon Sep 13 13:58:24 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: New to the list References: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040913132406.059ba550@enigma> Message-ID: <4145EDD0.4020606@cableone.net> I have a TRS-80 mod 3, two TRS-80 mod 1s, some expansion chassis for TRS-80 and some 5.25" floppies for TRS 80, a Commodore Pet, a North Star (8" floppies!!), a Chameleon (dos/cpm)(portable but weighs 40 lbs!!) , a Sinclair that has been built into a monitor/keyboard cabinet with lots of super mods., a couple of TI computers and modules, a Commodore SX-64, several Datavue 25s (first really portable computer). If I were to hang on to anything it might be the Commodore SX-64 because it has a color screen and I have a Packet radio set up that fits it....hmmmm maybe I should sell the packet radio set up with it. But what I think what I will do is sell these either here or on E Bay and when the stack gets low, keep the last couple or the ones of the least value and use what I get from the others to make the last ones really nice. Is there a place where I can go to see what the values of the various units is? Dan Veeneman wrote: > Hi Jim, > > At 07:37 PM 9/12/04, you wrote: > >> I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my >> wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I >> am here to make a decision, one or the other. > > > Welcome to this list. I'm sure you'll get a number of people > (including me) curious about what computers you might have > and where you're located. > > As far as deciding what to do -- do you have some "favorites" > that you'd like to power up and run? > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 13 14:15:24 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <414589CD.8070609@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Sep 13, 4 07:51:41 am" Message-ID: <200409131915.MAA14836@floodgap.com> > Nope. OS X is basically OpenSTEP. The OS X Unix API is basically > FreeBSD. > Although successive generations of OS X are dropping more and more of > the OpenSTEP Netinfo insanity in favor of flat-file configuration. Yeah, NetInfo drives me nuts. At least there are nice tools for managing it, but it seems much ado about nothing. > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best > of UNIX. It's lovely. As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ----------------------------- From news at computercollector.com Mon Sep 13 14:03:25 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4145EDD0.4020606@cableone.net> Message-ID: <20040913190325.86842.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Jim, To sell your systems, I recommend either using this list, or posting at a web site like http://marketplace.vintage.org or http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum -- I'd urge you to avoid eBay. For the price of systems, you should check out the book "Collectible Microcomputer" by Michael Nadeau, or just ask people on this list. - Evan K. --- Jim Isbell wrote: > I have a TRS-80 mod 3, two TRS-80 mod 1s, some expansion chassis for > TRS-80 and some 5.25" floppies for TRS 80, a Commodore Pet, a North Star > (8" floppies!!), a Chameleon (dos/cpm)(portable but weighs 40 lbs!!) , a > Sinclair that has been built into a monitor/keyboard cabinet with lots > of super mods., a couple of TI computers and modules, a Commodore > SX-64, several Datavue 25s (first really portable computer). If I were > to hang on to anything it might be the Commodore SX-64 because it has a > color screen and I have a Packet radio set up that fits it....hmmmm > maybe I should sell the packet radio set up with it. But what I think > what I will do is sell these either here or on E Bay and when the stack > gets low, keep the last couple or the ones of the least value and use > what I get from the others to make the last ones really nice. > > Is there a place where I can go to see what the values of the various > units is? > > > > Dan Veeneman wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > > > > At 07:37 PM 9/12/04, you wrote: > > > >> I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my > >> wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I > >> am here to make a decision, one or the other. > > > > > > Welcome to this list. I'm sure you'll get a number of people > > (including me) curious about what computers you might have > > and where you're located. > > > > As far as deciding what to do -- do you have some "favorites" > > that you'd like to power up and run? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Mon Sep 13 14:10:29 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:07 2005 Subject: New to the list References: <20040913190325.86842.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4145F0A5.5030904@cableone.net> Why would you avoid E Bay? I have found that with Ham gear its a pretty good market. I can get more there than at Ham Fests and I don't have to haul it all over hells half acre. Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: >Jim, > >To sell your systems, I recommend either using this list, or posting at a web >site like http://marketplace.vintage.org or >http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum -- I'd urge you to avoid eBay. For the >price of systems, you should check out the book "Collectible Microcomputer" by >Michael Nadeau, or just ask people on this list. > > - Evan K. > >--- Jim Isbell wrote: > > > >>I have a TRS-80 mod 3, two TRS-80 mod 1s, some expansion chassis for >>TRS-80 and some 5.25" floppies for TRS 80, a Commodore Pet, a North Star >>(8" floppies!!), a Chameleon (dos/cpm)(portable but weighs 40 lbs!!) , a >>Sinclair that has been built into a monitor/keyboard cabinet with lots >>of super mods., a couple of TI computers and modules, a Commodore >>SX-64, several Datavue 25s (first really portable computer). If I were >>to hang on to anything it might be the Commodore SX-64 because it has a >>color screen and I have a Packet radio set up that fits it....hmmmm >>maybe I should sell the packet radio set up with it. But what I think >>what I will do is sell these either here or on E Bay and when the stack >>gets low, keep the last couple or the ones of the least value and use >>what I get from the others to make the last ones really nice. >> >>Is there a place where I can go to see what the values of the various >>units is? >> >> >> >>Dan Veeneman wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Jim, >>> >>>At 07:37 PM 9/12/04, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my >>>>wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I >>>>am here to make a decision, one or the other. >>>> >>>> >>>Welcome to this list. I'm sure you'll get a number of people >>>(including me) curious about what computers you might have >>>and where you're located. >>> >>>As far as deciding what to do -- do you have some "favorites" >>>that you'd like to power up and run? >>> >>> >>>Cheers, >>> >>>Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 13 14:20:33 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <200409131915.MAA14836@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Sep 13, 2004 12:15:24 PM Message-ID: <20040913192033.58E737A4E9@dittman.net> > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best > > of UNIX. It's lovely. > > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 14:24:30 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Failure of my classic computer Message-ID: <200409131924.MAA26490@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Well it happened Sunday. Right in the middle of copying some disk on my Poly 8813, it died. I tried to reboot but nothing seemed to work. I tried all the obvious things like swapping the RAM addresses around on the main RAM boards and swapping RAM chips around on the CPU board before I realized that I was going to have to trace it out. The Poly's have a built in machine video front panel monitor. With all the boot ROMs loaded, it wouldn't come up but if I removed one of the ROMs, I was able to get the monitor working. I did some quick checks of the floppy controller card and that seemed to work. Placing the ROMs in the extra socket, I wrote a simple checksum. Again, not problem found. They all matched my copies that I'd filed away( One should always have backup of machine ROMs ). I guess now, I was forced to look at the symptoms and use that to track down the issues. Something I should have done from the start but I kept expecting something simple. I noted that the processor was clearing the video and starting the floppy but not doing the steps to track zero. When the ROM was removed, all seemed to work OK so the basic processor operation was OK. It was something in the process of getting the floppy read. I reentered the monitor and was able to write some simple code to verify that, yes, the controller could step both in and out. Still, this was were it seemed to be hanging. A while back, I'd made a listing of the code so I figured I'd look through that. Following the code, I could see the video clearing and then the setting up of the disk access. I could see where the drive was selected and then there was a wait for delay. Bingo, the timer interrupt was not happening. Now I had something to trace down. Following the interrupt ended me on a daughter card that was tacked onto the CPU card ( I didn't have the schematic for the daughter card but it only had 3 chips ). A little more looking and I found a miss behaving 74LS75. I found a spare on one of my scrap boards and replaced it. After about 4 hours, I was back in operation. Why is it that the latching and flopping ttl parts seem to have such a high failure rate? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 14:28:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... Message-ID: <200409131928.MAA26496@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bill Sudbrink" ---snip--- > >Another data point plus an "Arg!"... >Ohio Scientific was quite fond of 2114s (Arg!). It looks like >the cause of the power supply failure in my C4P is that one of >the 24K memory cards (48 2114s) was drawing well over spec, even >though it appeared to be providing reliable memory operation. It >was populated with the LC (low power CMOS) 2114 chip. According >to specs on the web, these should draw 40 milliamps max. I pulled >10 at random. Not one pulled less than 70. Now, I tested them >with all pins floating other than power and ground and I wonder >how much difference that makes, but totaling up an average of 75 >per chip gives about what the card as a whole draws when in >operation. The other card, populated with another vendors 2114s, >draws over 1/2 amp less when in operation, reflecting about 42 >milliamps per chip. > Hi Floating of CMOS inputs may draw a lot more current. These are not like TTL in this respect. CMOS inputs will tend to float until current flows through both the input P and N channel transistors. This is bad for the parts as well as drawing current. CMOS inputs should always be high or low while testing power supply current. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 14:30:24 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away in So Cal. Message-ID: <200409131930.MAA26500@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steve I'd be interested in the case you have. I live in Santa Cruz CA. Dwight >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:49:58 -0700 (PDT) >From: steven >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away in So Cal. > >Hello world, > >I have two AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away. >You pay shipping only. And also a Snickers bar. > >Steve > >located near Santa Ana CA. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 13 14:42:07 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident References: <20040913192033.58E737A4E9@dittman.net> Message-ID: <005801c499c9$c0bd1570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: laptop incident > > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best > > > of UNIX. It's lovely. > > > > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. > > Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > The last release os A/UX was 1994 or so (I have it), it wasn't that long ago. From news at computercollector.com Mon Sep 13 14:37:25 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <4145F0A5.5030904@cableone.net> Message-ID: <20040913193725.90520.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> I've also used ebay for specific hard-to-find things, but in general, many of us in the "active" part of the hobby like to keep things in the family, so to speak... I don't mean to say that anyone here works as a "clique"... just the opposite; people here (and me) love to see newcomers... but you'll generally find that buy/sell/trade deals are most fair and honest amongst your fellow collectors. Avoiding eBay, except when really necessary, also helps avoid your stuff ending up at some (cringe!) scrap dealer, and helps avoid price inflation from people who have no clue what they're bidding on or what it's worth. So I guess you could say I advocate buying on eBay, but not selling on eBay. (Does that make any sense? I think so.) If you look at the list archives (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk) you will see many long discussions on this topic. --- Jim Isbell wrote: > Why would you avoid E Bay? I have found that with Ham gear its a > pretty good market. I can get more there than at Ham Fests and I don't > have to haul it all over hells half acre. > > Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > > >Jim, > > > >To sell your systems, I recommend either using this list, or posting at a > web > >site like http://marketplace.vintage.org or > >http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum -- I'd urge you to avoid eBay. For > the > >price of systems, you should check out the book "Collectible Microcomputer" > by > >Michael Nadeau, or just ask people on this list. > > > > - Evan K. > > > >--- Jim Isbell wrote: > > > > > > > >>I have a TRS-80 mod 3, two TRS-80 mod 1s, some expansion chassis for > >>TRS-80 and some 5.25" floppies for TRS 80, a Commodore Pet, a North Star > >>(8" floppies!!), a Chameleon (dos/cpm)(portable but weighs 40 lbs!!) , a > >>Sinclair that has been built into a monitor/keyboard cabinet with lots > >>of super mods., a couple of TI computers and modules, a Commodore > >>SX-64, several Datavue 25s (first really portable computer). If I were > >>to hang on to anything it might be the Commodore SX-64 because it has a > >>color screen and I have a Packet radio set up that fits it....hmmmm > >>maybe I should sell the packet radio set up with it. But what I think > >>what I will do is sell these either here or on E Bay and when the stack > >>gets low, keep the last couple or the ones of the least value and use > >>what I get from the others to make the last ones really nice. > >> > >>Is there a place where I can go to see what the values of the various > >>units is? > >> > >> > >> > >>Dan Veeneman wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Hi Jim, > >>> > >>>At 07:37 PM 9/12/04, you wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my > >>>>wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I > >>>>am here to make a decision, one or the other. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Welcome to this list. I'm sure you'll get a number of people > >>>(including me) curious about what computers you might have > >>>and where you're located. > >>> > >>>As far as deciding what to do -- do you have some "favorites" > >>>that you'd like to power up and run? > >>> > >>> > >>>Cheers, > >>> > >>>Dan > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 13 14:49:01 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Failure of my classic computer In-Reply-To: <200409131924.MAA26490@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913154349.024c44a0@192.168.0.1> At 03:24 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: > After about 4 hours, I was back in operation. Why is it >that the latching and flopping ttl parts seem to have such a >high failure rate? Probably because the output wasn't very well isolated from the input on those "MSI" (medium scale integration) parts. They were pushing to get 4 FF in one package and didn't buffer the output. According to my trusty (and rusty) orange TI TTL Data Book, there wasn't any isolation at all. Too much fanout degrades the device and ringing on the lines leads to eventual failure. Ed K. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 13 15:04:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095105897.5280.43.camel@fiche.wps.com> > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > OK, I'm very close to needing to suck the data off the main memory of > > this LGP-21 before I reform caps and all that electronicky stuff. On Sat, 2004-09-11 at 14:46, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I would think that 16 bits is way overkill (the original read channel gets by > with one bit) 8 bits ought to be good enough if you use most of the bits. > 8bit 1 MHz A-Ds are cheap and simple to use. You are of course right! I talked before I thought... the need to do this has been in the back of my mind for so long I wrote before I read. You are correct, the machine uses a simple amplifier and comparator, so 128 times as many discrete levels (8 bits) would let me correct for loss of flux well enough; this isn't spook-level data recovery. (2X - 4X is probably enough.) The LGP platter has three timing tracks: more or less, bit time, sector time, sector address. From the first two are derived 8 states with FFs. The sector address is skewed (8" floppy style) via this 3rd timing track bit-serial table. So pre-turnon data recovery is a Big Deal, and now that the Time is Near a problem I've worried about all along is more dear -- those timing tracks are literally irreplacable and entirely ephemeral (Tony Duell may be able to sympathize with this fear :-) The chance at this point of the timing tracks being usable is pretty good, no reason it's been anything other than seasonally-temperature cycled (ie. slowly). > > Also since you have multiple passes available you could just use a comparator > and adjust the threshold (even manually) every rotation (like a sampling > scope) This way you only need to record (multiple) 1 bit streams @ 800 KHz or > so - easily done with a PC parallel port (= 100KHz reading of shift register) Good idea, but there's no way to externally know which of the samples taken that way would be "good data". Though -- there is an old trick for checking for arithmetic overflow and range in intermediate results -- seeing that output remains as-predicted with varying input. In this case, if the comparator has a 10%-wide window, varying the input gain + and - 2%, say, should produce correct output. Marginal checking, in other words. Even this would become complex though, and all samples need to be relative to some of the timing-track-derived timing. I'm just not sure how much moon-landing effort I should put out in this direction. It may be that I should simply ensure that writing isn't electrically possible, and bring the machine up minimally (can't run with write disabled, much). From vrs at msn.com Mon Sep 13 15:11:49 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: Message-ID: <000001c499d2$62bc3560$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > > > debug I would imagine. > > > > One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx > > modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug at > > the module level before tackling the whole thing. > > > > Vince > > > > Thats something I could do as a feasability experiment > > Are the schematics of the (say dual FF that used for the registers) on line > anywhere? I could sneek that on my next mixed 4 layer panel Here is a nice collection of many the module schematics: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/KI10_moduleSchems_V2_Oct74.pdf and here the ones that are specific to the straight-8: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/F-87_PDP-8_MaintMan.pdf starting in chapter 10. I have been looking at the R210 module when thinking about feasibility, myself. It is double-height, so the original took up 0.5" by 5.375" of backplane space. (It is on page 10-15, or page 255 of the PDF.) I chose that one because it looked fairly hairy :-). I think it would be interesting to make one with an edge connector (so it could be tested in a real straight-8), then "smash" it into the area formerly taken by the socket. In principle, you could do that to the whole CPU, then decide if it was worth the trouble to re-arrange the components (or not) after you were fairly sure of the correctness of your implementation. Vince From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 13 16:08:59 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <16709.52686.694000.345481@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Drums have flying heads, too. Not all. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 13 16:20:19 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> What PDP-11 OS screen is this? Late version of RSTS? http://ebayimages.octiva.net/PDP11-BOOTUP-SCREEN.JPG Ed K. From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 13 16:28:44 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident Message-ID: <20040913212844.E6E397A4E9@dittman.net> >> > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best >> > > of UNIX. It's lovely. >> > >> > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. >> >> Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. > >The last release os A/UX was 1994 or so (I have it), it wasn't that long >ago. That was about ten years ago, which is about half the lifetime of the Mac. The first release of A/UX was released about fourteen years ago (1988). I'd call that a long time ago compared to OS X and the age of the Mac itself. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Sep 13 16:33:42 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: At 5:20 PM -0400 9/13/04, Ed Kelleher wrote: >What PDP-11 OS screen is this? >Late version of RSTS? > >http://ebayimages.octiva.net/PDP11-BOOTUP-SCREEN.JPG I can say with certainty it is not RSTS. Might be DSM? John From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 13 16:41:33 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <000001c499d2$62bc3560$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive > > > > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > > > > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but > hell to > > > > debug I would imagine. > > > > > > One could perhaps build it out of modules -- make SMT versions of Rxxx > > > modules, etc., then use those to build up the CPU. Then one could debug > at > > > the module level before tackling the whole thing. > > > > > > Vince > > > > > > > Thats something I could do as a feasability experiment > > > > Are the schematics of the (say dual FF that used for the registers) on > line > > anywhere? I could sneek that on my next mixed 4 layer panel > > Here is a nice collection of many the module schematics: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/modules/KI10_moduleSchems_V2_Oct74.pdf > > and here the ones that are specific to the straight-8: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/F-87_PDP-8_MaintMan.pdf starting in > chapter 10. > > I have been looking at the R210 module when thinking about feasibility, > myself. It is double-height, so the original took up 0.5" by 5.375" of > backplane space. (It is on page 10-15, or page 255 of the PDF.) I chose > that one because it looked fairly hairy :-). I'll take a look at that one, Maybe with right angle .050" or 2mm connector so I could plug it onto a full size flip-chip adapter... > > I think it would be interesting to make one with an edge connector (so it > could be tested in a real straight-8), then "smash" it into the area > formerly taken by the socket. In principle, you could do that to the whole > CPU, then decide if it was worth the trouble to re-arrange the components > (or not) after you were fairly sure of the correctness of your > implementation. > > Vince > Peter Wallace From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 13 16:53:16 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16710.5836.464702.892607@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> What PDP-11 OS screen is this? Late version of RSTS? Ed> http://ebayimages.octiva.net/PDP11-BOOTUP-SCREEN.JPG Definitely not RSTS. Not any OS I've ever seen, actually (not RT, RSX, IAS, BSD, DOS, RSTS, or Ultrix...). The message at the bottom mentions "DSM blocks". So I wonder if it's DSM-11. Is someone selling that? I know at least one person who might be interested (slightly, anyway)... paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 13 17:19:44 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? In-Reply-To: <16710.5836.464702.892607@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913181156.029afca8@192.168.0.1> At 05:53 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: > >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: > > Ed> What PDP-11 OS screen is this? Late version of RSTS? > > Ed> http://ebayimages.octiva.net/PDP11-BOOTUP-SCREEN.JPG > >Definitely not RSTS. Not any OS I've ever seen, actually (not RT, >RSX, IAS, BSD, DOS, RSTS, or Ultrix...). > >The message at the bottom mentions "DSM blocks". So I wonder if it's >DSM-11. > >Is someone selling that? I know at least one person who might be >interested (slightly, anyway)... I saw the DSM, but I've never heard of anyone actually running a MUMPS system, least of all on a QBus machine. Course that's not saying much since I forgot completely about IAS, and Ultrix and never have seen these either, but they're there. With the XDT at the top of the screen I thought it might be M related, but M was never friendly (?) like that. :-) Maybe Mplus? And I don't think DEC made a RK06/RK07 QBus interface (DM2, DM3, DM4 on the screen). Though Dilog, and others possibly, made QBus controllers that emulated those drives. Anyway it was supposedly for a QBus PDP11 memory board but seemed funny to me. Ed K. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 13 17:21:53 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> Message-ID: <41461D81.4070209@gjcp.net> John Foust wrote: > I like this approach in theory. I think it has great long-term > potential for data recovery and preservation for our hobby. Certainly, if the original hardware can't reliably recover data stored on disks or drums, this is a good way to go. The more information you have, the better chance you hace. > Anyone care to give a thumbnail sketch of what sampling rates > would be necessary to digitize the signals on recording media > (3 1/2", 5 1/4", 8" floppy, hard disks, drums, disk packs, etc.) > at sufficient rates to preserve the encoding for post-processing > in other tools? > > I saw one reference online that said 3 1/2" and 5 1/4" floppies > were 250-500 kbit/s. If we were digitizing at a much higher > rate than the original simple circuitry that might've only > detected flux traversals, couldn't we recover more data? Well, 300kb/s would suggest that if it went 10101010 then you'd have a 150kHz signal. Now, possibly it uses some kind of self-clocking or NRZ code, so it may be 300kHz. I'd say that 8 bits of resolution would be plenty, and perhaps four times the data rate, so a sample rate of 1.2MHz might well be adequate. That would be well within the range of (relatively) cheap A-D converters. Obviously, the higher the resolution, the slower the conversion. Most A-D converters (and I'm sure many, if not most of you know this) use "successive approximation" to derive the correct value - get a D-A converter and a comparator, then loop through "toggle the MSB, is it too high or too low? Toggle the next bit, too high or too low?" all the way down. You get "flash" converters for video (or you used to) which were 32 or 64 individual comparators and voltage references, and some encoding logic to give you a binary output. Overkill really, but very, very fast. If you found a fast 6-bit flash converter cheaply, that may well be enough resolution for your track scanner. We're not going for Dolby Digital quality here... Gordon. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Sep 13 17:58:12 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <000001c499d2$62bc3560$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <000001c499d2$62bc3560$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <20040913225812.GB18932@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Sep 13, 2004 at 01:11:49PM -0700, vrs wrote: > I have been looking at the R210 module when thinking about feasibility... > > I think it would be interesting to make one with an edge connector (so it > could be tested in a real straight-8), then "smash" it into the area > formerly taken by the socket. In principle, you could do that to the whole > CPU, then decide if it was worth the trouble to re-arrange the components > (or not) after you were fairly sure of the correctness of your > implementation. One could take a single and a double-height proto card, solder on an appropriate sized .1"-spacing socket, then make your proto SMT designs on a board with pins and test whatever particular module design was under review at the time. Saves on edge connectors for everything, especially if you want to go the proper gold-finger route. OTOH, doing all the protos with their own edge fingers means that you could, theoretically, use these as replacement parts for the real thing, but in practice, the real ones are easy enough to diagnose and fix that it would probably only matter if you were _missing_ cards, not had a box of broken ones. Long ago (1984?) I made an M-series tester that I never completed. I finished the hardware (a 44-pin RadioShack proto card with a 6821, a power switch, and a single DEC backplane socket), but never wrote the VIC-20 software to test any cards (what I later did instead was to make an extension clip for a commercial IC tester and now I test many kinds of M-series cards on the table-top, with the IC tester powering on all (3 to 4) ICs on the card, but only testing one chip at a time... it works for any card that doesn't have internal interconnects between the chips, so not the M220 or M706/M707, etc., but it does test M111, M113, M117...). One observation to share for testing M-series cards - I have seen more 7474 and 7440 failures than anything else; in fact, probably 90% of the time, a dead -8/L is one chip or the other has failed on some card. Rarely it's a 7400 or 7404. As I have a quantity (enough to fill several racks) of R-series stuff, I've always thought about what it would take to do something similar for those modules... even if I'm using an O-scope to check transition levels, flip-flopping, etc., it would be nice to have a software- controlled socket that knew what lines to toggle for me so I could just watch the scope. Has anyone here ever made any automated or semi-automated debugging equipment for pre-TTL logic? In terms of the PDP-8/S-on-a-board project... I have a real PDP-8/S that still needs to be fixed (two biggest problems are broken lamps and a panel-lock switch that is sensed as always locked - i.e., the switch tests out, so it must be a transistor or related component that monitors it). Once I delve into that machine enough to get it working, I'd probably a lot more interested in details of a modern transistor-based replica. For now, I'm just trying to get my head five years further into the past than it is now (I'm deficient in wide swaths of pre-TTL gear, but we happen to have multiple copies of "The Art of Electronics" down here, and I'm better than I used to be). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Sep-2004 22:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -43.3 F (-41.8 C) Windchill -76.5 F (-60.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.7 kts Grid 336 Barometer 674.6 mb (10832. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From acme at gbronline.com Mon Sep 13 17:59:59 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: New to the list References: <4144DDCD.9050707@cableone.net><6.0.3.0.2.20040913132406.059ba550@enigma> <4145EDD0.4020606@cableone.net> Message-ID: <012e01c499e5$65e232e0$744f0945@thegoodw> Hello, Jim, and welcome aboard! I'm certain you'll find the folks on this list to be helpful, whether you decide to keep your computers or find new homes for them. > I have a TRS-80 mod 3, two TRS-80 mod 1s, some expansion chassis for > TRS-80 and some 5.25" floppies for TRS 80 If you decide to keep the TRS-80 Model 3, I have a bunch of different operating systems for it which I'd be happy to share. > a Sinclair that has been built into a monitor/keyboard cabinet with lots > of super mods Which model Sinclair? What sort of mods? I may very well be interested if you decide to offload it -- I collect Sinclair and Timex-Sinclair machines and their clones and peripherals. Later -- Glen Goodwin http://www.acme-sales.net Electronic parts and more From aek at spies.com Mon Sep 13 18:37:29 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery Message-ID: <20040913233729.750FD3C61@spies.com> Anyone care to give a thumbnail sketch of what sampling rates would be necessary to digitize the signals on recording media (3 1/2", 5 1/4", 8" floppy, hard disks, drums, disk packs, etc.) at sufficient rates to preserve the encoding for post-processing in other tools? -- Paul Pierce is using this technique to recover data from 7 track tape. The only problem I see is people on this list underestimate the costs involved in putting something together that works. For the most part, analog level recovery isn't necessary. Modern digital data separators will recover most media, which reduces the data rates substantially. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/proj.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Sep 13 18:43:47 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913171728.02ba0698@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher > Sent: 13 September 2004 22:20 > To: cctalk > Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? > > What PDP-11 OS screen is this? > Late version of RSTS? Nope, DSM-11 aka Digital Standard Mumps. The PDP 11/84 at Bletchley Park is running DSM-11, and after fitting a new DEUNA to it the other month I had pleasure in trying to figure my way round the OS to get troubleshooting info......got it in the end but hells, talk about difficult! Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Sep 13 19:31:54 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Epson parts In-Reply-To: <20040907.174821.856.0.willcampagna@juno.com> References: <20040907.174821.856.0.willcampagna@juno.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913201154.05b5cc20@mail.netsync.net> Hi Will, I have an Action Laser II which I'm afraid I'll have to part out. The photoconductor unit assembly has a big gouge out of it plus a scratch around the circumference. I bought the printer used at an auction and was not told about it. (Yeah, I know, buyer beware.) Price tag for a new one was much more than the danged printer is even worth :-/ Toner cartridge$ are another $tory. The rest of the machine looks fine. Anyway, I can look inside to see if the parts you need are within. Is the memory expansion board mounted inside or would this be an external option plugged into the external option connector? I have not ever had the covers unbolted to know for sure. It has been buried in the attic for several years now but if you want me to look, I can root it out within the next four or five days. Would you perhaps want it for the cost of shipping and maybe a heavy-wall carton? Regards, Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 05:48 PM 9/7/04, Will Campagna said something like: >I am trying to locate a source for a Memory Expansion Board and ram chip >sets for the Epson Action Laser II laser printer. > >Thanks for your help. > >Will Campagna Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dancohoe at oxford.net Mon Sep 13 19:27:33 2004 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: DEC RP02, 03 and RP04 drives available... any interest? Message-ID: <001601c499f1$a192d860$6501a8c0@dcohoe> I came across a bunch of these drives on the weekend...unfortunately in a humid/cold storage area where they've been for quite a while. I'll probably try to buy one of each, but are they of any interest to anyone else? Looks like there's 2 of the RP02's, 4 of the RP03's and at least 2 of the RP04's. They're in southern Ontario. Dan Cohoe From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 13 20:01:08 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122815.00974940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <414642D4.8030201@tiac.net> Joe, I'd thought you were holding a complete 7970E for me already? What happened to that drive? Joe R. wrote: >Bob, > > I have some 7970 drives but no spare parts. I can loan you a hub but >you'll need to replace it sooner or later (or just make a deal for the >entire drive(s)). > > Joe > > >At 07:08 PM 9/7/04 -0400, you wrote: > >>I urgently need a part to repair an HP tape drive. >> >>What I'm looking for is the hub release mechanisim from a HP 7970 A, B, >>C, or E drive. This same >>part may also be used on other HP tape drives as well. The same >>mechanisim is used for both the >>supply and take-up reels. >> >>If you have a parts machine HP tape drive, please contact me ASAP. >> >>To remove this part from a drive, lift the tape reel unlocking tab on >>the front of the hub. >>You will see a small phillips head screw, remove this screw (it does not >>need to be fully >>unscrewed, but you might as well...). >> >>With the locking screw removed, unscrew (counter-clockwise) the release >>mechanisim from the >>hub while preventing the hub from turning (simple finger pressure should >>do). >> >>How I broke my release mechanisim.... >> >>I had a reel of tape with a rather sticky write-enable ring mounted, and >>it stuck to the hub. Even >>with the release tab lifted I was unable to get this reel of tape off >>the hub. I managed to free the >>offending reel of tape, but in the process the release tab got whacked, >>and the cams under the >>tab cracked and split. >> >>The major pain of this is, I need to cut a bootable tape, and now I >>cannot even mount a reel. >> >> >> >> >> > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 19:54:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409140054.RAA26813@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was looking things up and it seems that many were using this canon engine. Here is a list I found: Alcetal 8376 Anzac 3017/3017-2/3024 Canon LBP-NX/LPB-NX 600/P-170 Chameleon Proffing Sytem Colorspan Winprinter 1000 GBT 6817 IIISi Genicom Corp 9170 HP IIIsi HP 4Si 4Si/MX Memorex 1917 DEC PrintServer 17 17/600 Interface Systems 7817/ ISI7817 Intergraph Corp Pacific Semi Turbo PCL5 Newgen Sys Turbo PS/440ND OCE 6500/6525 QMS 1700/1725/PS 1700/PS 1725/1725SLS PS QMS 1725E/1725 Ex Print System Siemens 4824 Highprint 4824/P10/15 SRS Imaging Imager 17D Tandem 5577 Wang LDP-17 Xerox 6R901 I noticed that the number 17 seems to be a common theme. Dwight From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 13 20:02:37 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: hi - re: HP1000/2000 References: Message-ID: <4146432D.5010509@tiac.net> I'd be interested in a 2117. What are you looking for? Gary Sloane wrote: > Got any interesting stuff you might wanna trade for an HP1000/F > (2117)? Or a 7905 disc drive? > > Gary > > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 13 20:05:28 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <0409140105.AA21200@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I was looking things up and it seems that > many were using this canon engine. Here is > a list I found: Great list, thanks! > I noticed that the number 17 seems to be a common theme. It does 17 ppm. MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 13 20:29:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Printer help? Message-ID: <200409140129.SAA26829@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was looking at stuff and PrintWorks has refurb DC controllers for $39 each. Dwight From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 13 20:54:45 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <20040913192033.58E737A4E9@dittman.net> from Eric Dittman at "Sep 13, 4 02:20:33 pm" Message-ID: <200409140154.SAA12272@floodgap.com> > > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best > > > of UNIX. It's lovely. > > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. > Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. True, although I think OS X meets that goal more fully not because of any engineering achievement relative to A/UX; rather, Apple is going entirely that direction instead of half-heartedly like they did in the A/UX days. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 13 22:15:34 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron Message-ID: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could have once run on anything. The new OS should be entirely self hosting. What would be the most interesting old OS to do. This would differ from the simh machines in that actual serial ports would connect to serial devices and printers would connect via parallel port. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 13 23:17:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident References: <20040913212844.E6E397A4E9@dittman.net> Message-ID: <001c01c49a11$b8798630$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: Re: laptop incident > >> > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the best > >> > > of UNIX. It's lovely. > >> > > >> > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the two. > >> > >> Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. > > > >The last release os A/UX was 1994 or so (I have it), it wasn't that long > >ago. > > That was about ten years ago, which is about half the lifetime of the Mac. > > The first release of A/UX was released about fourteen years ago (1988). > > I'd call that a long time ago compared to OS X and the age of the Mac > itself. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > It wasn't that long ago to completely forget about it was what I was referring to. Anyway I don't think it ran on a laptop well (or even at all). From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 13 23:21:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, ITS, >TWENEX or one of the other >legacy OS to work on x86 machines? The idea would be to do something >like Linux has done for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think >all the ones I mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to >write could have once run on anything. > >The new OS should be entirely self hosting. What would be the most >interesting old OS to do. > >This would differ from the simh machines in that actual serial ports >would connect to serial devices and printers would connect via >parallel port. Do you really want to go so far as to have to deal with device drivers? The best choice might be build on top of the Linux kernel making as few changes to the kernel itself as possible. That way you can leave writing new device drivers to the Linux people, and concentrate on the user interface. I believe this is the method that the FreeVMS project is using. If you were to go from the kernel level, write it such that it is easy to port to different architectures. As for interesting OS's RSTS/E, TOPS-20, and Multics all come to mind. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 14 00:18:07 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Computer surplus in Los Angeles Message-ID: <1095139087.3772.7.camel@fiche.wps.com> Apex, in Sun Valley: Out back, a pile of Tandy 4's and III's. A pile out in the sun, likely junked, but probably retrievable stuff in there. Out back, there were a bunch of VT1xx's and VT2xx's, but they were beyond salvage. There were even some Kaypro 4's once, similarly crapped. Tek 3002 logic analyzer, typically, without probes, but I know there are Tek or HP probes hanging on the end of the aisle (this sort of thing happens all the time -- parts get separated. I've been ahem known to buy one thing... then the other half a week or a month later...) That other Tek I mentioned, the lsi11 thing, is there on a shelf. THere are some other vintage computerish items, but I forget what they were. A bunch of video processing gear, with some sort of MO drive, all black, looks very 1986ish. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Sep 14 01:38:00 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Computer surplus in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <1095139087.3772.7.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1095139087.3772.7.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913233711.03f75ec0@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:18 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: >Apex, in Sun Valley: > >Out back, a pile of Tandy 4's and III's. A pile out in the sun, likely >junked, but probably retrievable stuff in there. bummer.... i wish i was closer, I could use a couple 4's for parts (or logic boards, ram, drive controllers.... and spare powersupplies...) From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 14 03:34:17 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: References: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4146AD09.10003@gjcp.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > Too bad the phone company (sbc) doesn't make a slow dsl available, no > faster > than my modem but always on and shareable.. that's what I miss most. Dial-up is shareable, but it can be pretty slow if you do so. Look at one of the single-floppy firewall Linux distros out there. I've had pretty good results from freesco (http://www.freesco.org) - easy to configure, and pretty solid in operation. Gordon. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Sep 14 05:48:43 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: PDP 11 Boot screen? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040913181156.029afca8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >The message at the bottom mentions "DSM blocks". So I wonder if it's > >DSM-11. It is. > I saw the DSM, but I've never heard of anyone actually running a MUMPS system, I do, as do two of my customers. One on a MicroPDP-11/83, and the other on a sortof homebrew 11/73. > least of all on a QBus machine. Course that's not saying much since I forgot > completely about IAS, and Ultrix and never have seen these either, but > they're there. Ultrix-11 rocks! > And I don't think DEC made a RK06/RK07 QBus interface (DM2, DM3, DM4 on the > screen). > Though Dilog, and others possibly, made QBus controllers that emulated > those drives. Emulex and Dilog both did. There were liked a lot by systems integrators that needed modern drives, full compatibility and a lower price than the DEC stuff. This is probably DSM-11 on some OEM 11/73-ish system with one of those boards. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 14 08:21:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> <41461D81.4070209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <16710.61535.453000.198159@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce writes: Gordon> Obviously, the higher the resolution, the slower the Gordon> conversion. Most A-D converters (and I'm sure many, if not Gordon> most of you know this) use "successive approximation" to Gordon> derive the correct value - get a D-A converter and a Gordon> comparator, then loop through "toggle the MSB, is it too high Gordon> or too low? Toggle the next bit, too high or too low?" all Gordon> the way down. You get "flash" converters for video (or you Gordon> used to) which were 32 or 64 individual comparators and Gordon> voltage references, and some encoding logic to give you a Gordon> binary output. Overkill really, but very, very fast. If you Gordon> found a fast 6-bit flash converter cheaply, that may well be Gordon> enough resolution for your track scanner. We're not going Gordon> for Dolby Digital quality here... Flash converters certainly go up to 8 bits, perhaps more by now. Also, modern SAR converters are often hybrids -- flash for the high order bits, SAR tweak for the low order bits. Then there are sigma-delta converters, particularly well suited for very high resolution at relatively modest speeds. "Relatively modest" is subject to change. I just saw an Analog Devices ad describing their new 2 megasample per second 18 bit SAR converter, and a 20 bit S-D converter at 2.5 megasamples. I don't suppose those are "relatively cheap" though... paul From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 14 08:38:43 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <001c01c49a11$b8798630$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Sep 14, 2004 12:17:16 AM Message-ID: <20040914133843.8333D7A4E9@dittman.net> > > >> > > Panther (v10.3.x) really is the best of MacOS combined with the > best > > >> > > of UNIX. It's lovely. > > >> > > > >> > As a long time MacOS and Unix user, it was nice to finally bridge the > two. > > >> > > >> Finally? It was bridged a long time ago with A/UX. > > > > > >The last release os A/UX was 1994 or so (I have it), it wasn't that long > > >ago. > > > > That was about ten years ago, which is about half the lifetime of the Mac. > > > > The first release of A/UX was released about fourteen years ago (1988). > > > > I'd call that a long time ago compared to OS X and the age of the Mac > > itself. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > > > It wasn't that long ago to completely forget about it was what I was > referring to. I see what you mean. Yes, I agree that it wasn't so long that people should have forgot about it already. > Anyway I don't think it ran on a laptop well (or even at all). That's true, it wouldn't run on any of the laptops. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 08:35:04 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident Message-ID: A bunch of my friends run tech support for a large university in Michigan. Between the four of them they do tech support for faculty and run the help desk. They all use iBooks and Powerbooks, and reccomend them to anyone who asks. They are not Mac zealots, they use and support all kinds of hardware and software, and swear by the Mac platform. They've spec'd out, set up, used and repaired probably every type of laptop manufactured (The University does not have a "Standard Hardware" policy) and they say they have far fewer problems with Apple hardware than any other make. Me, I'm saving up for the big-screen Powerbook :) Even if you hate OSX, just run anything else you want on it :) http://www.kernelthread.com/mac/vpc/ That doesn't include Yellow Dog linux, running natively, of course :) >From: "Jay West" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: laptop incident >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:24:03 -0500 > > > Once you go Mac, you'll never go back. >I hear OSX is basically FreeBSD. That's a good reason to switch to me :) >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 14 09:17:59 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, Ron> ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 Ron> machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done Ron> for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I Ron> mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could Ron> have once run on anything. What would it mean to "run" such an OS on an x86? Consider RSTS, which is the only one of those three I know well. The OS itself is 100% assembly language. The system services are defined in terms of request blocks in low user memory along with system call instructions (EMT opcode of the PDP-11). Applications were generally written in Basic-Plus (or -2), or in PDP11 assembler; rarely in some other language such as TECO, or FORTH, or others. I could imagine creating a Basic-Plus environment that emulates that aspect of RSTS. I could also imagine a BP2 compiler that generates X86 code. The surrounding machinery -- "run time systems", the system service semantics, etc. -- that would be tricky. Assuming you get that far, you have a user mode analog of the original, so old applications (if written in Basic-Plus or BP2) would run. The same would go for TECO. Assembly language applications have no chance short of running an emulator at least for user mode. The same goes for FORTH, since it tends to hook right into the assembly style system service API, though obviously you could replace just that small part and keep the rest. paul From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 14 09:36:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident References: Message-ID: <002001c49a68$316a41a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: Re: laptop incident > A bunch of my friends run tech support for a large university in Michigan. > Between the four of them they do tech support for faculty and run the help > desk. They all use iBooks and Powerbooks, and reccomend them to anyone who > asks. They are not Mac zealots, they use and support all kinds of hardware > and software, and swear by the Mac platform. They've spec'd out, set up, > used and repaired probably every type of laptop manufactured (The University > does not have a "Standard Hardware" policy) and they say they have far fewer > problems with Apple hardware than any other make. > > Me, I'm saving up for the big-screen Powerbook :) > > Even if you hate OSX, just run anything else you want on it :) > http://www.kernelthread.com/mac/vpc/ > > That doesn't include Yellow Dog linux, running natively, of course :) > What ever happened to asking people what software they need to run and recommending a platform that runs that software? A Mac laptop is a nice machine, unless you need to run something windows based. If you need to run Final Cut Pro don't get a DELL. >From what I have seen Apple Laptops have their share of problems, which is why everybody buys the extended Apple warranty. When the extended warranty runs out in 3 years most problems will cost major $$$ to fix, I assume the PC laptops are about the same. Maybe I am wrong, but modern day laptops are not made for long term survivability these days. From cb at mythtech.net Tue Sep 14 09:46:30 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: laptop incident Message-ID: >What ever happened to asking people what software they need to run and >recommending a platform that runs that software? A Mac laptop is a nice >machine, unless you need to run something windows based. If you need to run >Final Cut Pro don't get a DELL. That should be the correct course of action. I am a Mac Zealot, and I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people come to me and say they want to get a computer for their kids to use for school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell them to get a Windows PC. Then a year later, when they ask me what the best way is to deal with all the popups, spyware, viri and other junk... I tell them to buy a Mac! :-) -chris From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 14 11:04:51 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> In a past life ;-) I used and worked with RSTS/E running on an 11/70 - including creating a lot of software, adding libraries, etc. - while running the Quant. Analysis Group at Fidelity. I now have RSTS/E running on my 11/83 - including the same account (and my personal software) that I worked with over twenty five years ago. To port RSTS/E to Intel would be a major chore. RSTS/E supports the RT, RSX BASIC-PLUS, BASIC-PLUS2, TECO, etc. run-time systems. It "automagically" can run programs from any of those "OS"es! So porting RSTS/E would mean porting all of those runtimes and their associated libraries (RT, RSX, etc.) as well. Whew!!! I thinks its a LOT easier (and more fun) to simply run it on real DEC hardware - or if you can't create that environment - run it on Intel via the SIMH or ERSATZ emulators. Cheers, Lyle On Tuesday 14 September 2004 07:17, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, > Ron> ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 > Ron> machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done > Ron> for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I > Ron> mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could > Ron> have once run on anything. > > What would it mean to "run" such an OS on an x86? Consider RSTS, > which is the only one of those three I know well. The OS itself is > 100% assembly language. The system services are defined in terms of > request blocks in low user memory along with system call instructions > (EMT opcode of the PDP-11). Applications were generally written in > Basic-Plus (or -2), or in PDP11 assembler; rarely in some other > language such as TECO, or FORTH, or others. > > I could imagine creating a Basic-Plus environment that emulates that > aspect of RSTS. I could also imagine a BP2 compiler that generates > X86 code. The surrounding machinery -- "run time systems", the system > service semantics, etc. -- that would be tricky. Assuming you get > that far, you have a user mode analog of the original, so old > applications (if written in Basic-Plus or BP2) would run. The same > would go for TECO. Assembly language applications have no chance > short of running an emulator at least for user mode. The same goes > for FORTH, since it tends to hook right into the assembly style system > service API, though obviously you could replace just that small part > and keep the rest. > > paul -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 11:30:45 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:08 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <4146AD09.10003@gjcp.net> References: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <4146AD09.10003@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6D770DD9-066B-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 14, 2004, at 1:34 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Too bad the phone company (sbc) doesn't make a slow dsl available, no >> faster >> than my modem but always on and shareable.. that's what I miss most. > > Dial-up is shareable, but it can be pretty slow if you do so. Look at > one of the single-floppy firewall Linux distros out there. I've had > pretty good results from freesco (http://www.freesco.org) - easy to > configure, and pretty solid in operation. > > Gordon. > You would still have to dial up every time you want on. It only takes a moment to dial up, but I find it changes my web browsing habits anyway. I wonder what the phone company would do if a local call lasted more than a few hours... (number of days..) I'll check out freesco, do you have to tell it when you want it to dial out? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 11:46:07 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <936E1495-066D-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 14, 2004, at 9:04 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > In a past life ;-) I used and worked with RSTS/E running on an 11/70 - > including creating a lot of software, adding libraries, etc. - while > running > the Quant. Analysis Group at Fidelity. > > I now have RSTS/E running on my 11/83 - including the same account > (and my > personal software) that I worked with over twenty five years ago. > > To port RSTS/E to Intel would be a major chore. RSTS/E supports the > RT, RSX > BASIC-PLUS, BASIC-PLUS2, TECO, etc. run-time systems. It > "automagically" can > run programs from any of those "OS"es! Yes, it would be. With all of us who program working together perhaps we can do it. We would be able to say how it would work. > > So porting RSTS/E would mean porting all of those runtimes and their > associated libraries (RT, RSX, etc.) as well. Whew!!! > I thinks its a LOT easier (and more fun) to simply run it on real DEC > hardware > - or if you can't create that environment - run it on Intel via the > SIMH or > ERSATZ emulators. I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 one could find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. > > Cheers, > Lyle > > On Tuesday 14 September 2004 07:17, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> >> Ron> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, >> Ron> ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 >> Ron> machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done >> Ron> for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I >> Ron> mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could >> Ron> have once run on anything. >> >> What would it mean to "run" such an OS on an x86? Consider RSTS, >> which is the only one of those three I know well. The OS itself is >> 100% assembly language. The system services are defined in terms of >> request blocks in low user memory along with system call instructions >> (EMT opcode of the PDP-11). Applications were generally written in >> Basic-Plus (or -2), or in PDP11 assembler; rarely in some other >> language such as TECO, or FORTH, or others. >> >> I could imagine creating a Basic-Plus environment that emulates that >> aspect of RSTS. I could also imagine a BP2 compiler that generates >> X86 code. The surrounding machinery -- "run time systems", the system >> service semantics, etc. -- that would be tricky. Assuming you get >> that far, you have a user mode analog of the original, so old >> applications (if written in Basic-Plus or BP2) would run. The same >> would go for TECO. Assembly language applications have no chance >> short of running an emulator at least for user mode. The same goes >> for FORTH, since it tends to hook right into the assembly style system >> service API, though obviously you could replace just that small part >> and keep the rest. >> >> paul > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 11:39:02 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: (OT) laptop incident Message-ID: >From: chris >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " > >Subject: Re: laptop incident >Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:46:30 -0400 >Then a year later, when they ask me what the best way is to deal with all >the popups, spyware, viri and other junk... I tell them to buy a Mac! :-) This is the thought process of my IT friends (Disclaimer: I used to do IT as well, now I'm just a lowly programmer :) I don't want to start a Mac/PC flamewar, I just want to relay my own and my friend's experiences to those who may have no exposure to a Mac. I've personally set up and maintained three seperate computer networks for three different campus departments, back when I was doing IT for the university. One was a Mac department, the other two were PC and Mac/PC mixed. The Mac-only department I had to revisit maybe twice to install new printer hardware and upgrade some machines. I was at the PC and Mac/PC departments a few times a month for viruses, crashed hardware, CD-ROM's failing, hard disks dying, etc... The Mac/PC department only ever had these problems with their PC's, their Mac-based server ran and ran and ran. (I also ran a Netware 4 based Compaq server that also ran and ran and ran. I also ran a Windows NT based Dell that ran maybe nine days out of ten :) This could mean that the Mac-only group didn't use their machines as much, which is unlikely as it was as close to a "Paperless office" as you could get. It could mean that they Mac-only office was more computer savvy and fixed their own problems, which is unlikey as it was a humanities department whose staff was just introduced to computers a couple years before (They picked up on the Mac's pretty quick and used them a LOT). It could mean the PC-only office didn't know what they were doing and broke hardware, which is unlikely as they were a sociology department who spent most of their time on SPSS crunching numbers, and had been for years. My friend's experiences mimic my own. Mac users show up at their door less often than PC users, even adjusted for installed platforms. Most Mac users coming in for help have machines that are 10 years old and they can't get to a website 'cause they are using a dirt old version of Netscape or IE. Most office/university users use Office, E-Mail and the Web, all of which are available on the Mac platform. If you need more esoteric stuff you can install fink and grab just about any package that can run on Linux. Disclaimer: I run a Gentoo linux server, a Linux based development server, a Windows XP machine for games, and a MacOS X machine for general use. I also have a laundry list of OSes running in the basement :) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 14 11:57:14 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <936E1495-066D-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040914125451.02f4b4c0@192.168.0.1> At 12:46 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 one could >find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. This would be a good RSTS box, 16 ports, 4MB, except you'd have to lose the RD53 and get an RD54/Maxtor XT2190: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5121950704&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Ed K. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 14 12:13:46 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <20040914171345.UQPF14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >You would still have to dial up every time you want on. It only takes a >moment to dial up, but I find it changes my web browsing habits anyway. >I wonder what the phone company would do if a local call lasted more >than a few hours... (number of days..) > >I'll check out freesco, do you have to tell it when you want it to dial >out? I use an SMC7004AWBR, which is a wireless router/switch - unlike most of the others, it also has a serial port to which you can connect an external modem. It can be configured to dial-on-demand, so when you try and go off your local subnet, it automatically dials in and gives you a connection - it also supports a timeout for auto-hangup. Unlike "high speed" connections, hearing the modem dial gives you a signal that something is "going out to the internet" - I find it almost unbelieveable how much software "phones home" when you start it. Folks with DSL etc. are for the most part completely unaware that this is happening... It seems that most of the software won't dial if you have a modem, but if it "thinks" you have a full-time connection, it will connect without ever asking you... [Now if I could only figure out why my WIN2000 machine insists on dialing out every time I open "network neighborhood" to access the local network] Winblows problems aside, the SMC router works well for me as a means of sharing a dial-up connection - It was fairly easy to get configured and running, and I don't have to keep a PC on all the time. note: if you decide to go this route, make sure that the router supports it - newer SMC's appear to have dropped this feature. Regards, Dave-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 12:19:25 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron Message-ID: >From: Ron Hudson >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron >Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:46:07 -0700 >I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 one >could >find? How about one of these: http://www.comwaretech.com/products/legacy_solutions/reviver11.shtml in one of these: http://www.dolch.com/html/flexpac.html .. Or run SIMH on one of these: http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/products.php?categories=1&model=146 :) _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 14 12:52:08 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040914125451.02f4b4c0@192.168.0.1> References: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20040914125451.02f4b4c0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200409141052.08786.lbickley@bickleywest.com> What Ed suggests would work fine. Or you can probably pick up an 11/23+ for less $ and it will handle RSTS/E nicely - though not as "snappy" as a micro 11/73 or 11/83. You might want to check Ed's or Arclight's website: http://macro-inc.com/DECSale.html http://www.arcind.net/Inventory.html Or you can hit this list for an 11/23+, 11/53, 11/73 - someone will very likely have one to sell! Cheers, Lyle On Tuesday 14 September 2004 09:57, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 12:46 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: > >I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 one > > could find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. > > This would be a good RSTS box, 16 ports, 4MB, > except you'd have to lose the RD53 and get an RD54/Maxtor XT2190: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5121950704&ssPageNa >me=STRK:MEWA:IT > > Ed K. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Sep 14 12:55:47 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Robots on PBS Show Message-ID: <005b01c49a84$1204c6c0$85406b43@66067007> Did anyone else notice the two Topo's in Bushnell's office on the PBS gaming special the other night? Looks like he may have had other vintage stuff there also. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Sep 14 12:45:50 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:30:45 PDT." <6D770DD9-066B-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200409141745.SAA32542@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > > On Sep 14, 2004, at 1:34 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >> Too bad the phone company (sbc) doesn't make a slow dsl available, no > >> faster > >> than my modem but always on and shareable.. that's what I miss most. > > > > Dial-up is shareable, but it can be pretty slow if you do so. Look at > > one of the single-floppy firewall Linux distros out there. I've had > > pretty good results from freesco (http://www.freesco.org) - easy to > > configure, and pretty solid in operation. > > > > Gordon. > > > > You would still have to dial up every time you want on. It only takes a > moment to dial up, but I find it changes my web browsing habits anyway. > I wonder what the phone company would do if a local call lasted more > than a few hours... (number of days..) > > I'll check out freesco, do you have to tell it when you want it to dial > out? No, diald takes care of that, dialing out on demand when access is needed. Freesco acts as a nice simple print server too. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 14 07:19:41 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4146E1DD.9000207@mdrconsult.com> chris wrote: >>What ever happened to asking people what software they need to run and >>recommending a platform that runs that software? A Mac laptop is a nice >>machine, unless you need to run something windows based. If you need to run >>Final Cut Pro don't get a DELL. > > > That should be the correct course of action. > > I am a Mac Zealot, and I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people > come to me and say they want to get a computer for their kids to use for > school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell > them to get a Windows PC. > > Then a year later, when they ask me what the best way is to deal with all > the popups, spyware, viri and other junk... I tell them to buy a Mac! :-) My Spousal Equivalent has been running the last Windows box in the house. I've been dragging her past the Apple displays every time we go to a computer store, and whining loudly every time I have to update her spyware tools or AV stuff, or fix Windows because some new app broke the whole house of cards. I also made her an account on my G5 months ago in the hope that she'd try it out during my frequent road trips. I left Austin Sunday on a 2-week business trip. Two hours after I left, Grace booted into a Windows Protection Fault, and now the box only runs in safe mode. I have several ideas, but nothing I can walk her through. She's being forced to use my Mac to do her email and bookkeeping. I asked last night what she wants to do about fixing her system, and pointed out that at minimum she needs to upgrade off Win98. Her response was "no more Windows. I'm sick of the constant crap, and this [we were setting up her POP3 account on the Mac] isn't nearly as hard as I thought." Singing, dancing, and other rejoicing took place. Seriously. I have Macs, Linux PCs, a VMware ESX server running several Linux VMs, a NetBSD laptop, Solaris SPARCs, an Alpha that's teaching me VMS, and a 43P-150. Two thirds of my emergency fixit time is on that damned Windows box. Now all I have to do is pry her off my G5 when I get home. Doc From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Sep 14 13:29:48 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror Message-ID: <0409141829.AA22178@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ron Hudson wrote: > You would still have to dial up every time you want on. It only takes a > moment to dial up, but I find it changes my web browsing habits anyway. Unless you do dedicated-over-dial, i.e., a dedicated phone line for the modem, always on, redial on hangup, and route a static IP block down the pipe. That's what I do. > I wonder what the phone company would do if a local call lasted more > than a few hours... (number of days..) Just checked syslog, the last time my router redialed was on Aug 24. So the call that's in progress right now has lasted 3 weeks so far. MS From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 14 13:33:49 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <6D770DD9-066B-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911162441.EYWI11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <4146AD09.10003@gjcp.net> <6D770DD9-066B-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4147398D.9080802@gjcp.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > You would still have to dial up every time you want on. It only takes a > moment to dial up, but I find it changes my web browsing habits anyway. > I wonder what the phone company would do if a local call lasted more > than a few hours... (number of days..) > > I'll check out freesco, do you have to tell it when you want it to dial > out? It dials out when you request something from the Internet. I *think* it uses a caching DNS server to minimise the "noise". It's pretty configurable. Gordon. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 13:47:01 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <936E1495-066D-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Sep 14, 2004 09:46:07 AM Message-ID: <200409141847.i8EIl1xx022827@onyx.spiritone.com> > I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 one > could find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. Personally I'd recommend a BA23 Chassis if space is a concern, a BA123 would be better, but they take up about twice the space. Then add a CPU board (/23+, /53, /73, /83, or /93 preferably with a bootstrap and console port onboard), get the right memory, get a disk and tape controller, disks, tape drive, a real terminal (I personally like VT420's), and plug it all together. If you can afford it I would recommend getting a SCSI disk/tape controller rather than an RQDX3, if you do go with the RQDX3, stay away from the RD53 disks. For a good reason to spend the money on a SCSI controller, take a look at what RD54's sell for these days! Having said that, I find myself leaning towards SIMH or E11 running on a Mini-ITX system. There is something about a PDP-11 that is virtually silent and only uses about 40W that appeals to me. Zane From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Tue Sep 14 13:41:39 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror In-Reply-To: <41413865.8020808@hp.com> References: <41413865.8020808@hp.com> Message-ID: <20040914184139.GA1498@jdboyd.zill.net> On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 01:15:17PM +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog > modem technology daily? I only have dialup at home. I use a computer that is less than 10 years old to route between the network and dialup because of the difficulty in getting high speed serial ports in older Sun gear. I don't get online everyday, but certainly most days. Thankfully, I have DSL at work. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd@jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From kth at srv.net Tue Sep 14 14:17:59 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <414743E7.7070106@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Ron> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, > Ron> ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 > Ron> machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done > Ron> for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I > Ron> mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could > Ron> have once run on anything. > >What would it mean to "run" such an OS on an x86? Consider RSTS, >which is the only one of those three I know well. The OS itself is >100% assembly language. The system services are defined in terms of >request blocks in low user memory along with system call instructions >(EMT opcode of the PDP-11). Applications were generally written in >Basic-Plus (or -2), or in PDP11 assembler; rarely in some other >language such as TECO, or FORTH, or others. > >I could imagine creating a Basic-Plus environment that emulates that >aspect of RSTS. I could also imagine a BP2 compiler that generates >X86 code. The surrounding machinery -- "run time systems", the system >service semantics, etc. -- that would be tricky. Assuming you get >that far, you have a user mode analog of the original, so old >applications (if written in Basic-Plus or BP2) would run. The same >would go for TECO. Assembly language applications have no chance >short of running an emulator at least for user mode. The same goes >for FORTH, since it tends to hook right into the assembly style system >service API, though obviously you could replace just that small part >and keep the rest. > > It would be better to just create a compiler for the languages like basic-plus than trying to rewrite the entire OS. It would allow you to use the old programs on new systems. Make a BP2 front-end for GCC, and you can natively run RSTS/E programs on your Linux system. If you want to play with a BP2 to C++ translator: http://onewest.net/~kth/btran.tgz pre-alpha, plenty of bugs, ugly code, lots of missing features. Has configure problems. Run configure/make in each subdirectory (src, lib, examples) and it mostly works. You may have to edit generated example file 'fri13.cc' and change an 'atof' to 'basic::atof'. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 14 14:06:46 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414743E7.7070106@srv.net> Message-ID: <16711.16710.342793.334871@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: Kevin> It would be better to just create a compiler for the languages Kevin> like basic-plus than trying to rewrite the entire OS. It would Kevin> allow you to use the old programs on new systems. Make a BP2 Kevin> front-end for GCC, and you can natively run RSTS/E programs on Kevin> your Linux system. Yes, once you have implemented a sys(char *) function that knows all the RSTS sys calls... which is a substantial job. And the libc additions to emulate the various I/O modifiers, especially for terminal I/O where they are both strange and important... paul From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Tue Sep 14 14:10:37 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 10:46:30AM -0400, chris wrote: > I am a Mac Zealot, and I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people > come to me and say they want to get a computer for their kids to use for > school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell > them to get a Windows PC. Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. Why screw up your computer choice for games when a seperate game box is only $50-$150 (depending on which one and how you feel about referbished). -- jdboyd@jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From jdboyd at jdboyd.net Tue Sep 14 14:13:55 2004 From: jdboyd at jdboyd.net (Joshua Boyd) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <4146E1DD.9000207@mdrconsult.com> References: <4146E1DD.9000207@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040914191355.GC1498@jdboyd.zill.net> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 08:19:41AM -0400, Doc Shipley wrote: > Now all I have to do is pry her off my G5 when I get home. Get her a single proc G5, iMac or PowerMac? I'll be happy when I can get my spouse onto a Mac. Though thankfully I don't have to get her off Windows to do it. Instead she will be moving over from Irix. -- Joshua D. Boyd jdboyd@jdboyd.net http://www.jdboyd.net/ http://www.joshuaboyd.org/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 14 15:44:23 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: PET: Info on MicroTech PETDISK II and Madison Z-RAM Message-ID: <20040914204422.YQZU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I recently acquired a PET 8032 which has a couple of interesting add-on's ... 1) MICROTECH PETDISK II This is an 8" disk system for the PET! - the controller card installs in the "edit" ROM socket (the EDIT ROM moves to the card), it also has it's own ROM, and is "hotwired" into several other PET signals via "flying leads"... I don't have any documentation for this system other than a single handwritten sheet which shows the connections (they match the way it's installed), an address of 59904 to start the system (this works) and a few commands such as !SYS to get a menu, and !LIST to display the directory (these also work). The two original MICROTECH diskettes both exhibit disk errors - looking at them, it appeasr that they have both sat in the continuously running 8" drive long enough to wear visible groves at track 0 (really visible). I did find two other "backup" disks, which boot (SYS 59904) and enable the above commands. Lots of details I have not been able to figure out - can anyone provide more information on this disk system? Anyone have documentation? 2) Madison Computer Z-RAM This one I have full docs for - it's a Z-80 / expansion RAM board which fits under the monitor and connects to the PET via the 6502 socket (the 6502 moves to the Z-RAM board). What I don't have is any software for it - it apparently runs CP/M, and should have come with a double sided CP/M disk (one side for 2031&4040, one side for 8050 drive) ... Anyone got the software or other material for this board? ++ Among the 8" diskettes that came with the machine are some which are labled as CP/M format - and I can't read a sensible directory using the PETDISK software - Perhaps someone ported CP/M to the PETDISK II / ZRAM combination? - If so, any idea how I would boot it? - anyone have this particular combination operating? You can see pictures of the machine and these devices on my site (just updated this afternoon). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 14 15:59:49 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident References: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <008601c49a9d$c6917160$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Boyd" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: Re: laptop incident > On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 10:46:30AM -0400, chris wrote: > > > I am a Mac Zealot, and I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people > > come to me and say they want to get a computer for their kids to use for > > school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell > > them to get a Windows PC. > > Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. > > Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. > > Why screw up your computer choice for games when a seperate game box is > only $50-$150 (depending on which one and how you feel about > referbished). > > -- Because some of the best games (IMHO) are for the PC only such as Age of Empires, or oldies like Master of Orion. I have a Dreamcast, PSX, and even an old Atari 2600 because some games are best played on a console, while other are better (or only found) on a PC. have you ever tried to play Quake or Unreal Tournament with a gamepad instead of a keyboard and mouse? From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 14 10:12:51 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> References: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <41470A73.2080109@mdrconsult.com> Joshua Boyd wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 10:46:30AM -0400, chris wrote: > > >>I am a Mac Zealot, and I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people >>come to me and say they want to get a computer for their kids to use for >>school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell >>them to get a Windows PC. > > > Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. > > Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. > > Why screw up your computer choice for games when a seperate game box is > only $50-$150 (depending on which one and how you feel about > referbished). Because for some of us it's not a religious question, and neither Intel nor MS are Satan. Even Microsoft is only a problem when they occupy production hardware. MS will abandon I enough people move off MS computers, *and* enough people buy XBoxes, production computing that much faster. If you look at it in terms of profit focus, Gary actually *contributed* to the demise of Windows by buying the XBox. ;) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 14 10:18:41 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <20040914191355.GC1498@jdboyd.zill.net> References: <4146E1DD.9000207@mdrconsult.com> <20040914191355.GC1498@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <41470BD1.6040904@mdrconsult.com> Joshua Boyd wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 08:19:41AM -0400, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> Now all I have to do is pry her off my G5 when I get home. > > > Get her a single proc G5, iMac or PowerMac? Oh, she's going to get a good Mac, don't get me wrong. I'm just afraid she won't settle for a Lesser Mac after running 2x 2GHz and 1GB of G5 goodness. :) There's a dual-867 G4 soon to be available, and if that falls through, I'll drop a couple of bills on a 1.4GHz upgrade for the Sawtooth. Either of those should keep her happy, or she can whack her own credit for a G5 iMac. Till then, I'll probably move the G5 to her room and use the PowerBook at home, too. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 17:01:19 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <008601c49a9d$c6917160$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Sep 14, 2004 04:59:49 PM Message-ID: <200409142201.i8EM1JlW028830@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > school work, email, AIM, and games. As soon as they say games, I tell > > > them to get a Windows PC. > > > > Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. > > > > Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. If someone wants to play Neo Geo games on real hardware, they will be better off getting an Arcade machine than a Neo Geo console. There are more games available for the console, and the games tend to be cheaper. Go price "Metal Slug" for the Console and then price it for the Arcade. For the price of that one cart you can get a Arcade system and several carts! BTW, the last carts for the Console and the Arcade were released this year. Not a bad run when you consider that the Home Carts are released at $300 each. Also, for classic consoles, don't forget the Sega Genesis. Great little system with great games (of course so was the Saturn and Dreamcast). > Because some of the best games (IMHO) are for the PC only such as Age of > Empires, or oldies like Master of Orion. I have a Dreamcast, PSX, and even Gee, I'd best not tell my PowerMac G5 2x2 that the Mac version of Master of Orion I run on it doesn't exist :^) Zane From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 14 17:01:26 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> References: <20040914191037.GB1498@jdboyd.zill.net> Message-ID: <20040914220126.GE31699@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 03:10:37PM -0400, Joshua Boyd wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 10:46:30AM -0400, chris wrote: > > > ...I recommend PC's all the time. Why? Because people...want... > > games. > > Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. > > Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. > > Why screw up your computer choice for games when a seperate game box is > only $50-$150 (depending on which one and how you feel about > referbished). Or, if you are interested in older games, there are DOS emulators that do a fine job - I've been playing X-COM on DosBox on a Linux machine. DosBox exists because these older games are really fiddly about their environment (sound especially). With some games, your choices pretty much are a) have a real 486-class machine, ISA bus, certain sound hardware, certain video hardware, etc., or b) emulate said environment. Of course if your taste in games runs towards modern things like Doom3, that pretty much specifies what kind of machine you need... (for the unaware, min specs are 1.5GHz CPU, 384MB RAM, 64MB 3D video card...) IIRC, MMORPGs like EverQuest, Asheron's Call, etc., not available for consoles like the PS/2. If I'm wrong, then a game console would still be a solution. I do not know if they are available for any environment outside of Windows... but as they are a common answer when people are asked "games? What kind of games?" that, too, may shape what kind of machine would be required. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 14-Sep-2004 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.6 F (-49.2 C) Windchill -92.5 F (-69.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.6 kts Grid 000 Barometer 679.6 mb (10639. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 14 17:10:13 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: PET: Info on MicroTech PETDISK II and Madison Z-RAM In-Reply-To: <20040914204422.YQZU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040914204422.YQZU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20040914221013.GF31699@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 04:44:23PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I recently acquired a PET 8032 which has a couple of interesting > add-on's ... > > 1) MICROTECH PETDISK II > > This is an 8" disk system for the PET! Wow! I _really_ wanted one of those in 1981. I never had docs or software, but I tried to get our local Science museum to go with them (since a 2040 dual 5.25" drive was well over $2000, new, and they _had_ compatible 8" drives from some other project). Coincidentally, it was one of these _exact_ 8" mechanisms I had with me at Dayton that I traded (plus $35 and a Cherry Keyboard) for my first PDP-8/L (and its partial brother for parts). I got the bare drive as "payment" for helping the museum research options for how to use them (they had half a cabinet of them). Do you have the resources to make a soft copy of its EPROM? I seriously doubt it's on funet. I really wish I had something to share with you. I think even in the day, all I had were brochures from the company, not manuals, but that was 20+ years ago and on the small chance I still have them, they are 12,000 miles away. I can look when I get home. I might even know which box to start in... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 14-Sep-2004 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.9 F (-48.9 C) Windchill -93.2 F (-69.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15 kts Grid 009 Barometer 679.6 mb (10639. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 14 17:54:34 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409141052.08786.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20040914125451.02f4b4c0@192.168.0.1> <200409141052.08786.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 10:52:08AM -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > What Ed suggests would work fine. Or you can probably pick up an 11/23+ for > less $ and it will handle RSTS/E nicely - though not as "snappy" as a micro > 11/73 or 11/83. In my experience, PDP-11 CPUs are much easier and/or cheaper to find than a Qbus disk system that does not use MFM drives. I have plenty of RQDX controllers and older drives, but a single Qbus SCSI card is usually more expensive than the box you previously bought to put it into. Of course, as others have pointed out, the current cost for an RD54 (~150MB) MFM drive (Maxtor XT-2190) is high enough that if you don't already have one, you might as well consider a Qbus SCSI card. Best to stay away from RD53s (Micropolis 1355 w/R7 jumper added) unless you a) have a good backup scheme, and b) like replacing drives every few years. I remember RSTS/E on F-11 CPUs (11/24...) being kinda doggy, but we were doing lots of compiles of our product, and using the box to test/use our data comms products (HASP, 3780...); RSX-11/M 4.2 wasn't exactly flying on the same hardware either. If you want to play with anything more complicated than RT-11 on real PDP-11 hardware, I'd consider an 11/53 (KDJ-11 CPU) to be a bit better, not even counting the fact that you get Split I&D space and can build larger programs. Yes, an 11/73 or /83 would be 'snappier', but a bit more pricey, especially over an 11/23. I would love to find an 11/8x or 11/9x, but I'm not holding my breath. At the moment, my fastest real Qbus -11 CPU is out of a communications server, making it, ISTR, the same as an 11/53 CPU (with different ROMs, but I have solved that already). It is destined to go into a BA123, perhaps with a 3rd party disk controller. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 14-Sep-2004 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56 F (-48.9 C) Windchill -97.2 F (-71.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 19.3 kts Grid 001 Barometer 679.6 mb (10639. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 18:26:45 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 14, 2004 10:54:34 PM Message-ID: <200409142326.i8ENQkib031672@onyx.spiritone.com> > you might as well consider a Qbus SCSI card. Best to stay away from RD53s > (Micropolis 1355 w/R7 jumper added) unless you a) have a good backup scheme, > and b) like replacing drives every few years. If it's only every few years you've had far better luck than me. The longest I've been able to keep an RD53 running was about 3 days. > (KDJ-11 CPU) to be a bit better, not even counting the fact that you get > Split I&D space and can build larger programs. Yes, an 11/73 or /83 > would be 'snappier', but a bit more pricey, especially over an 11/23. As long as you don't mind dealing with the troubles involved in a dual-height /73 CPU, they aren't to hard to come by. Of course if you do get one you'll want a third party disk controller w/bootstrap, and a DLV11J for your console ports. It's a pain, but it works. Until I upgraded to a Quad-Height /73 CPU, I kept a Webster ESDI board in the system for the bootstrap even though it didn't have any disks attached and the system disk was on a SCSI controller. > I would love to find an 11/8x or 11/9x, but I'm not holding my breath. At Ditto. Actually what I *really* want is one of the newer Mentec CPU boards! > the moment, my fastest real Qbus -11 CPU is out of a communications server, > making it, ISTR, the same as an 11/53 CPU (with different ROMs, but I > have solved that already). It is destined to go into a BA123, perhaps with > a 3rd party disk controller. Let me guess it's out of a DECserver 550, if so it's a /53. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 18:54:57 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: laptop incident In-Reply-To: <002001c49a68$316a41a0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Sep 14, 4 10:36:16 am Message-ID: > PC laptops are about the same. Maybe I am wrong, but modern day laptops are > not made for long term survivability these days. Is any computer? -tony From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 19:36:09 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16711.16710.342793.334871@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414743E7.7070106@srv.net> <16711.16710.342793.334871@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3CB3D0A6-06AF-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 14, 2004, at 12:06 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Kevin" == Kevin Handy writes: > > Kevin> It would be better to just create a compiler for the languages > Kevin> like basic-plus than trying to rewrite the entire OS. It would > Kevin> allow you to use the old programs on new systems. Make a BP2 > Kevin> front-end for GCC, and you can natively run RSTS/E programs on > Kevin> your Linux system. > > Yes, once you have implemented a sys(char *) function that knows all > the RSTS sys calls... which is a substantial job. And the libc > additions to emulate the various I/O modifiers, especially for > terminal I/O where they are both strange and important... > > paul > > Might as well just run linux. It has lots of good languages, and plays nicely with terminals and telnet sessions. It's not very legacy tho. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 14 19:35:57 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron References: Message-ID: <16711.36461.967538.320064@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jason" == Jason McBrien writes: Jason> >> I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest >> PDP11 one could find? Jason> How about one of these: Jason> http://www.comwaretech.com/products/legacy_solutions/reviver11.shtml Jason> in one of these: http://www.dolch.com/html/flexpac.html Jason> .. Or run SIMH on one of these: Jason> http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/products.php?categories=1&model=146 Nah, just run it (or E11) on a laptop. SIMH might even run on a pocket PC, that would be neat. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 19:44:32 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16711.36461.967538.320064@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 14, 2004 08:35:57 PM Message-ID: <200409150044.i8F0iW2H001466@onyx.spiritone.com> > Nah, just run it (or E11) on a laptop. SIMH might even run on a > pocket PC, that would be neat. > > paul Kirk Davis ported SIMH to WinCE a few years back, he was running RSTS/E on it, IIRC. Zane From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 19:47:18 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409141847.i8EIl1xx022827@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200409141847.i8EIl1xx022827@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2004, at 11:47 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 >> one >> could find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. > > Personally I'd recommend a BA23 Chassis if space is a concern, a BA123 > would > be better, but they take up about twice the space. Then add a CPU > board > (/23+, /53, /73, /83, or /93 preferably with a bootstrap and console > port > onboard), get the right memory, get a disk and tape controller, disks, > tape > drive, a real terminal (I personally like VT420's), and plug it all > together. > > If you can afford it I would recommend getting a SCSI disk/tape > controller > rather than an RQDX3, if you do go with the RQDX3, stay away from the > RD53 > disks. For a good reason to spend the money on a SCSI controller, > take a > look at what RD54's sell for these days! > > Having said that, I find myself leaning towards SIMH or E11 running on > a > Mini-ITX system. There is something about a PDP-11 that is virtually > silent > and only uses about 40W that appeals to me. > > Zane > > I have a terminal.. it's an HP but it's a terminal. I suppose writing RSTS from the ground up is not as nice as just using an emulator (simh or E11). (Sellam - look away) I really can't afford the space, heat or electricity of a real PDP 11. but I can run and emulator in my iBook. (Ok Sellam, done) If anyone has an RSTS/E system hanging on the Internet (simh or not) I would be interested in a an account.. Trade-ya for games written in BASIC. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 14 21:25:22 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409142326.i8ENQkib031672@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> <200409142326.i8ENQkib031672@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040915022522.GA30464@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If it's only every few years you've had far better luck than me. The > longest I've been able to keep an RD53 running was about 3 days. In commercial use, when SRC had MicroVAXen, we never lost an RD53 (that I know of - they might have had to swap one out when I wasn't working there at one point). I have that MicroVAX, and its RD53 is still good. OTOH, I do know that others have had problems. > As long as you don't mind dealing with the troubles involved in a > dual-height /73 CPU, they aren't to hard to come by. Of course if you do > get one you'll want a third party disk controller w/bootstrap, and a DLV11J > for your console ports. It's a pain, but it works. I haven't played with a dual-height /73 - I take it, it's like the dual-height KDF-11 (11/23) CPU, nothing but a CPU? (Some of my F-11 boxes have that CPU and a BDV11, others have the 11/23+ quad-height CPU). > Until I upgraded to a > Quad-Height /73 CPU, I kept a Webster ESDI board in the system for the > bootstrap even though it didn't have any disks attached and the system disk > was on a SCSI controller. Ah... interesting solution. These days, of course, it's trivial to keep a bootstrap on another machine, talk to the -11 via terminal emulator (Kermit...) and force-feed any bootstrap you want over the console line. > > I would love to find an 11/8x or 11/9x, but I'm not holding my breath. At > > Ditto. Actually what I *really* want is one of the newer Mentec CPU boards! I'm not even _dreaming_ about those... I'd be happy to get a hand-me-down from someone else who _did_ just get one. > Let me guess it's out of a DECserver 550, if so it's a /53. I got it as a bare board, but that sounds right. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Sep-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.8 F (-48.8 C) Windchill -98.2 F (-72.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21 kts Grid 005 Barometer 680.5 mb (10607. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 14 21:51:39 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <4147AE3B.5050605@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > An SMT transistorized machine would be an interesting project, but hell to > debug I would imagine. Remember to use 1 GHZ transistors too! > -ethan > From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 14 22:13:43 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ron Hudson > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > > > On Sep 14, 2004, at 11:47 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >> I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 > >> one > >> could find? I am running RSTS/E on simh. > > > > Personally I'd recommend a BA23 Chassis if space is a concern, a BA123 > > would > > be better, but they take up about twice the space. Then add a CPU > > board > > (/23+, /53, /73, /83, or /93 preferably with a bootstrap and console > > port > > onboard), get the right memory, get a disk and tape controller, disks, > > tape > > drive, a real terminal (I personally like VT420's), and plug it all > > together. > > > > If you can afford it I would recommend getting a SCSI disk/tape > > controller > > rather than an RQDX3, if you do go with the RQDX3, stay away from the > > RD53 > > disks. For a good reason to spend the money on a SCSI controller, > > take a > > look at what RD54's sell for these days! > > > > Having said that, I find myself leaning towards SIMH or E11 running on > > a > > Mini-ITX system. There is something about a PDP-11 that is virtually > > silent > > and only uses about 40W that appeals to me. > > > > Zane > > > > > I have a terminal.. it's an HP but it's a terminal. I suppose writing > RSTS from the ground > up is not as nice as just using an emulator (simh or E11). > > (Sellam - look away) > I really can't afford the space, heat or electricity of a real PDP 11. > but I can run and emulator in my iBook. > (Ok Sellam, done) > > > If anyone has an RSTS/E system hanging on the Internet (simh or not) I > would be interested in > a an account.. Trade-ya for games written in BASIC. > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real PDP-11/34. What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. Ashley From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 22:19:16 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <20040915022522.GA30464@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> <200409142326.i8ENQkib031672@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040915022522.GA30464@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: >In commercial use, when SRC had MicroVAXen, we never lost an RD53 (that >I know of - they might have had to swap one out when I wasn't working >there at one point). I have that MicroVAX, and its RD53 is still good. >OTOH, I do know that others have had problems. Right, but this was how many years ago? The RD52's and RD54's both seem to still be fairly good disks, but the RD53's are bad news. I have heard of people opening them up, removing the rubber and going back to running with them. > > As long as you don't mind dealing with the troubles involved in a > > dual-height /73 CPU, they aren't to hard to come by. Of course if you do > > get one you'll want a third party disk controller w/bootstrap, and a DLV11J > > for your console ports. It's a pain, but it works. > >I haven't played with a dual-height /73 - I take it, it's like the dual-height >KDF-11 (11/23) CPU, nothing but a CPU? (Some of my F-11 boxes have that CPU >and a BDV11, others have the 11/23+ quad-height CPU). Yes, it's just a bare CPU board, but more importantly it was fairly common in OEM setups, and as a result the dual-height boards seem to be fairly common. The full blown quad-height OTOH, seem to be about as common as an /83 board. > > Until I upgraded to a >> Quad-Height /73 CPU, I kept a Webster ESDI board in the system for the >> bootstrap even though it didn't have any disks attached and the system disk >> was on a SCSI controller. > >Ah... interesting solution. These days, of course, it's trivial to keep >a bootstrap on another machine, talk to the -11 via terminal emulator >(Kermit...) and force-feed any bootstrap you want over the console line. Not a good solution for me, I like a VT420 for my console, though I did use this solution briefly. > > Let me guess it's out of a DECserver 550, if so it's a /53. > >I got it as a bare board, but that sounds right. Warning my memory stinks today. Does the board have a faceplate on it like it was for a BA213 box (S-Box comes to mind, but I can't remember if that's right)? If so you'll have to remove that before putting it in a BA123. I've actually got three of the boards, somewhere (a friend of mine got three DS550's). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 22:21:04 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, >including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. Do either of you happen to have DND? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 14 22:52:05 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, > >including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. > > Do either of you happen to have DND? > > Zane I'll have to look. I got a PDP-11/23 a few months ago and I believe that a version of Dungeon was on an RL01 pack with that system. I'll have to fire it up some time in the near future and check on those RL01 packs. These are all RT11 packs. I never played Dungeon, but I assume that's what you're talking about. I spent many hours (days, months) playing ADVENTure (Colossal Cave) back in the 1978-79 time frame. Ashley From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 22:45:58 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> If anyone has an RSTS/E system hanging on the Internet (simh or not) I >> would be interested in >> a an account.. Trade-ya for games written in BASIC. >> >> > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > PDP-11/34. > > What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, > including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. > > Ashley > > > > I meant I would write games... and type them in from the likes of "What to do after you hit return". Including my own version of StarTrek... Any ppn will do. I am 100,1 on my own emulator. No I don't need a priv. account. Ron. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 22:52:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Do either of you happen to have DND? >> >> Zane > >I'll have to look. I got a PDP-11/23 a few months ago and I believe >that a version of Dungeon was on an RL01 pack with that system. >I'll have to fire it up some time in the near future and check on >those RL01 packs. These are all RT11 packs. > >I never played Dungeon, but I assume that's what you're talking >about. I spent many hours (days, months) playing ADVENTure >(Colossal Cave) back in the 1978-79 time frame. > >Ashley No, it's a different game. Check out http://dnd.lunaticsworld.com/ Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 14 23:09:03 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> If anyone has an RSTS/E system hanging on the Internet (simh or not) I > >> would be interested in > >> a an account.. Trade-ya for games written in BASIC. > > > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > > PDP-11/34. > > > > What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, > > including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. > > > > Ashley > > > > I meant I would write games... and type them in from the likes of > "What to do after you hit return". Including my own version of > StarTrek... Any ppn will do. I am 100,1 on my own emulator. > > No I don't need a priv. account. > > Ron. > You now have account 100,1 with a generous quota of 100 blocks. Games are under the logical GAME: (DIR GAME: to get a list). If you want to type in games, just put them in your account and I'll move them to GAME: when they're ready. Ashley From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 14 23:00:51 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: IBM stuff Message-ID: Today I finally picked up that IBM 8232 - probably the most odd, and certainly largest, machine from IBM's original PC line. The 8232 is essentially a bridge between a Bus and Tag channel and ethernet/token ring. Basically it is a 7532 Industrial PC with a channel card and panel, all in a 300 pound box. It sounds like it could actually be useful as sort of a channel sniffer. I also took a 3480 tape drive with a controller. This is somewhat like the TK50 drives of DEC fame, but Blue (and a whole bunch heavier). There are some other 3480s available for people that might want them. I can ask my contact - when I was there today, one 3480-A22 controller and seven 3480-B22 drives were still on the floor. These are located in New York City. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 14 23:07:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > PDP-11/34. Ashley, That is a very cool website! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Tue Sep 14 23:25:41 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > > PDP-11/34. > > Ashley, > > That is a very cool website! Thanks. It was originally put together just for my old college buddies and retired professor, but I'll share it with the rest of you folks. I need to update it to include some info and pictures of my real PDP-11 computer center that is now growing and coming along quite nicely. Ashley > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 14 23:22:02 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:09 2005 Subject: DS550 CPUs (was Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron) In-Reply-To: References: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> <200409142326.i8ENQkib031672@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040915022522.GA30464@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040915042202.GA9109@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 08:19:16PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Warning my memory stinks today. Does the board have a faceplate on > it like it was for a BA213 box (S-Box comes to mind, but I can't > remember if that's right)? If so you'll have to remove that before > putting it in a BA123. I've actually got three of the boards, > somewhere (a friend of mine got three DS550's). Yes it does... I have lots of the right kind of handles (since I used to *make* Qbus boards). I traded a box of handles for this CPU in the first place. I'd actually like to get a cheap DS550 just to fiddle with - compact enclosure and all. I gave up on eBay two years ago because they were going for a lot more money than I wanted to spend. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Sep-2004 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.6 F (-49.2 C) Windchill -95.59 F (-70.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.6 kts Grid 003 Barometer 680.7 mb (10599. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 04:28:45 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <20040914225434.GA6331@bos7.spole.gov> References: <200409141052.08786.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20040914125451.02f4b4c0@192.168.0.1> <200409141052.08786.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915050546.0363d7c0@192.168.0.1> At 06:54 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >Yes, an 11/73 or /83 >would be 'snappier', but a bit more pricey, especially over an 11/23. > >I would love to find an 11/8x or 11/9x, but I'm not holding my breath. I've found the 11/73 to be a LOT faster (subjectively at least) than an 11/23. Sort of like the difference between 300baud and 1200baud CRT terminal connections. 300 baud was painful on a CRT, but 1200 baud passed a knee, or hump, and was almost as good as 9600. At least as far as I recall from the time when VADIC came out with 1200 baud full duplex dial up modems we used to support DEC systems in the field. The 11/73 has cache (16kb?), the 11/23 doesn't. And while the amount is small, compared to today's standards, it makes all the difference in the world, as anyone who has ever run an 11/70 with it's cache (8kb) disabled will tell you. I did some testing on 11/73 vs 11/83: The 11/83 has a faster CPU AND a faster memory bus. You can use an 11/73 with the 11/83 memory to improve speed. From my website [WARNING: crass commercialism zone]: http://www.macro-inc.com/DECSale.html To spare delicate sensibilities, here's an excerpt: If your PDP 11/73 needs a boost, upgrading to a PDP 11/83 can give you 30% more power with NO changes required to your software. The 11/83 is a combination of 2 boards -- Processor and Memory: The KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE) processor uses a 18MHz J11 CPU instead of the 15 MHz chip on the KDJ11-BB 11/73. The MSV11-JE (M8637-EC) 1 MB memory board uses the C/D rows for a special processor/memory bus. Here are the results for a CPU/Memory intensive benchmark with various combinations of CPU and memory. 1) KDJ11-BB 11/73 and MSV11-M (M7506) 21:32 (Minutes:Seconds) = 100% 2) KDJ11-BB 11/73 and MSV11-QA (M7551) 21:29 (Minutes:Seconds) 3) KDJ11-BB 11/73 and MSV11-PL (M8067) 20:40 (Minutes:Seconds) +4% Older memory 4) KDJ11-BF 11/83 and MSV11-QA (M7551) 19:28 (Minutes:Seconds) +10% CPU alone 5) KDJ11-BB 11/73 and MSV11-JE (M8637) 17:06 (Minutes:Seconds) +20% Memory alone 6) KDJ11-BF 11/83 and MSV11-JE (M8637) 15:04 (Minutes:Seconds) +30% Together The benchmark was run under RT11. I created a VM: ramdisk, copied the RT11 SYS and SAV files to VM:, and another copy of the RT11 SAV files as .SAX files and then booted VM: I executed a command file that printed the system time, then did 100 iterations of a binary file comparison of all .SAV files with all .SAX files and then printed the time at exit. Everything ran out of RAM, there was no disk I/O. Some of the KDJ11's on eBay are 11/83 processors with a "-xE" on the handles. Be careful. The MSV11-JE can be used on 11/73, 11/83 and 11/84 systems. The MSV11-JC can only be used on 11/84 systems. Why? Beats me. Also, the KDJ11-Bx quad CPU board has boot strap and console port built in. The console port is isolated from the rest of the bus. Some 3rd party QBus disk controllers use the console port for their setup/formatting software. You'll need a console port on the bus to use them, like a DLV11-J, with port 3 set as console. The KDJ11-Bx system will boot fine like this, ignoring the DLV11-J port 3 console. Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 04:34:56 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <4147AE3B.5050605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915053230.0364bbd0@192.168.0.1> At 10:51 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >Remember to use 1 GHZ transistors too! I think the original proposal included scattering some LED's around for blinkenlights also. Guess you'll need some 1GHz LED's then too. Ed From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Sep 15 06:29:43 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Tapes and others In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7C06@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7C06@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Got a bargain on the weekend - a Compaq 5100e, an IBM PS2 Model 35 and a > box of D6525 tapes (38 of them) for ten bucks. > > Can anyone advise me what these tapes were typically used in and for - > they look in very good condition - what type of drives can use them etc. DC6525 tapes are designed for QIC (Quarter-Inch Cartridge) drives and have a capacity of approx. 525 Mb uncompressed. Compatible drives were made by Archive, Tandberg and a number of others. From cheri-post at web.de Wed Sep 15 06:47:01 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well Message-ID: <492737007@web.de> Hello guys, it's been a while I told you about this lovely machine. Someone told me to backup the contents of the PROMs and EPROMs: that's done. The capstan roller of the DEI - streamer is fixed (I changed it), the power supply is in working condition, the voltages are fine. Now the bad news: The IMI 7020 hard drive is dead and cannot be fixed: The damn coil of the motor causes a short circuit :( That's why the power supply turns off when the disk drive is attached... Even if somebody had a replacement motor (24V) , who could probably ajust the platters and the heads to find track 0 ?? I've never seen another IMI drive, they seem pretty special, with their connectors and all. Ok, anyway, I'll concentrate in bringing the machine back to life without a hard drive but I haven't been very lucky yet. Al asked me to scan in the boards, but my scanner (low cost, low end) has problems with depth perception, you can barely see something on the images. I'll have to find another scanner which can do the job. So far, nothing appears on the console terminal when turning the machine on. The voltages on the test points have been checked, there're ok. sometimes, the 5V voltage test point "shows" 4.2 V on the board this the terminal connectors but this semms to be a problem of conductivity. An important question: The (10 or something) SRAM-modules on the CPU-board which are Motorola MCM2125AC-70 chips reach a high temperature. 15 minutes after turning on the machine, the measured temperature comes to 50 ?C (122?F), the chips been supplied with typical 5V (measured). Is this normal ? It's a bit to high, isn't it ? By the way: Last time, I had the wrong model number in mind: C8002. Actually, it's a C8000, sorry for that. Sincerely yours ! Pierre ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 07:10:33 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well In-Reply-To: <492737007@web.de> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915080825.032e1630@192.168.0.1> At 07:47 AM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >The IMI 7020 hard drive is dead and cannot be fixed: >The damn coil of the motor causes a short circuit :( I'm sure you checked, but possibly could it be motor braking electronics or the good old reversed diode across the windings that have shorted, and not the motor coil itself? The thing would probably run with those disconnected. Ed K. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 15 07:55:42 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> <5.2.0.9.2.20040915053230.0364bbd0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16712.15310.510000.61859@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> At 10:51 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >> Remember to use 1 GHZ transistors too! Ed> I think the original proposal included scattering some LED's Ed> around for blinkenlights also. Guess you'll need some 1GHz LED's Ed> then too. Only if you have 1 GHz eyeballs! paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 08:14:32 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive In-Reply-To: <16712.15310.510000.61859@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> <5.2.0.9.2.20040915053230.0364bbd0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915091347.0345a6e0@192.168.0.1> At 08:55 AM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >Only if you have 1 GHz eyeballs! Which was my point. :-) I'm sure we've all programmed intentional delays to give people the idea the computer was "thinking". Ed K. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 15 09:37:52 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Registry Problems Message-ID: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> This is not on the subject of older systems, but I have a problem that I hope someone can direct me to a list that covers it. I have four "programs" that are sitting in the Registry of my XP system and could be causing some problems for me with popups. How do I get into the registry to delete these files? Windows explorer does not display any system files or directories and the "find": function cannot find the files even though it is set to search hidden and system directories but I know they are there because they were found by SpyHunter and are labeled as dangerous. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 15 09:48:39 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Registry Problems In-Reply-To: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> References: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> Message-ID: <200409150748.39627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've found these guys: http://www.easydesksoftware.com/ have great products for dealing with all kinds of Windows registry issues. Lyle On Wednesday 15 September 2004 07:37, Jim Isbell wrote: > This is not on the subject of older systems, but I have a problem that I > hope someone can direct me to a list that covers it. > > I have four "programs" that are sitting in the Registry of my XP system > and could be causing some problems for me with popups. How do I get > into the registry to delete these files? Windows explorer does not > display any system files or directories and the "find": function cannot > find the files even though it is set to search hidden and system > directories but I know they are there because they were found by > SpyHunter and are labeled as dangerous. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 15 10:03:08 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Registry Problems In-Reply-To: <200409150748.39627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: IMHO - this topic should really be off-list. I have replied to jim, and I believe others should do the same....again just my opinion.. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 15 09:57:38 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Registry Problems In-Reply-To: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040915105340.03bae0e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Isbell may have mentioned these words: >This is not on the subject of older systems, but I have a problem that I >hope someone can direct me to a list that covers it. > >I have four "programs" that are sitting in the Registry of my XP system >and could be causing some problems for me with popups. How do I get into >the registry to delete these files? Windows explorer does not display any >system files or directories and the "find": function cannot find the files >even though it is set to search hidden and system directories but I know >they are there because they were found by SpyHunter and are labeled as >dangerous. Click "Start" then click "Run" and type in "msconfig" (sans quotes) and OK. This will give you an OOIE-GUI into everything about your PC -- click on the "Startup" tab and it will show you everything in your startup folder and in your registry -- start unclicking the boxes for anything that looks remotely suspicious. Want to get rid of popups forever? For free, even?!? Run Mozilla. It's got a built-in popup blocker that (AFAICT) can not be gotten around - I've not had a popup in 18 months. Spyware and downloadware are similarly hampered through the use of this marvel. (Oh, and try the latest Ad-Aware from www.lavasoftusa.com (version SE 1.04) -- it's free, and it's da bomb.) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From cheri-post at web.de Wed Sep 15 10:29:08 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Dead IMI-drive (was Re: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well) Message-ID: <492989186@web.de> > >The IMI 7020 hard drive is dead and cannot be fixed: > >The damn coil of the motor causes a short circuit :( > > I'm sure you checked, but possibly could it be motor braking electronics or > the good old reversed diode across the windings that have shorted, and not > the motor coil itself? This reversed diode sits on a small PCB outside the motor. I disconnected it, having the two wires of the 24V DC Motor in my hands. There's almost no measurable resistor between these wires... this leads me to the assumption that the coil produces a short circuit. Connecting the motor wires directly to the 24V connectors of the power supply leads to a shutdown when beeing turned on. I've got lots of hard drives (approx. 350) in any size and age you can imagine but I've never seen one with a dead motor which causes a short circuit. It's quite rare, isn't it ? Pierre _________________________________________________________ Mit WEB.DE FreePhone? mit h?chster Qualit?t ab 0 Ct./Min. weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201 From pds3 at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 15 10:59:51 2004 From: pds3 at ix.netcom.com (pds3@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: RA60 packs available Message-ID: <11548683.1095263991819.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Jay, I wouldbe interested in those. Please contact me at pds3@ix.netcom.com or 530/384-2013 thanks, Shannon Hoskins. -----Original Message----- From: Jay West Sent: Sep 13, 2004 9:36 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RA60 packs available A contact of mine has a bunch of RA60 packs he'd like to sell. If interested please contact me offlist. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 11 19:11:05 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Floppy drives for the Tarbell floppy controller In-Reply-To: <200409112244.i8BMhV3g004356@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200409120011.i8C0AvJX022657@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Which Tarbell Controller? There were 4 revisions of the single density board, A thru D, and way too many revisions of the double density board (A thru H, but A thru D did not work reliably; the revision "E" board was really the first version of the double density board that was reliable). The single density Tarbell board was a mess, it wasn't much more than a disk controller "prototype" board, you basically had to jumper-wire the entire board yourself by hand based on the type of drives that you had, it is just awful (typically, you ended up installing something like 50 jumper wires). HOWEVER, if you got the board jumpered right (and, of course, if the parts were all good and if it was assembled right), it actually worked really well. The double density boards ran way to hot, the voltage regulator was way over-stressed, and I always put a low-value 2-watt resistor across the voltage regulator on the back of the board (something like 10 ohms) to relieve a bit of the stress on the regulator. The single density board was an "early" item, before the drive interfaces became relatively standard. Because of the jumper options, it could be modified to take ANY drive. The double density board basically requires either a Shugart type drive (or one very compatible with it), or a Persci drive. There were only a relatively few jumper options. Manuals for both boards are on Howard's site. From etyrnal at ameritech.net Sat Sep 11 22:48:34 2004 From: etyrnal at ameritech.net (luke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Atari Unix Message-ID: <9ED9D480-046E-11D9-AE6D-000A95682B94@ameritech.net> "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a hard disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI hard disk for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who wrote Atari Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that the image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or not. So far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari Unix will recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you can hook the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if I can get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for Atari's on an actual Atari computer. If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and you pay shipping to and from me. Curt " Hi my friend and i have been looking for this for a while... is there a way to create a ghost image that is downloadable? this way we can ghost it into our own drive ourselves? there are two tt's we are trying to get going... thanks for any info - luke From JMeyer101 at aol.com Sat Sep 11 23:20:14 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord Message-ID: <14.337a6517.2e75287e@aol.com> Jack, Thanks for the info on the power cords. I looked up the two cords and they both look very close. I will contact Newark on Monday to verify the distance between pins. The 17952 has a note that states it is made with non-standard polarization. Do you or anyone else on cctech know how I can tell if it's the correct polarity for the Intellec? The 17280's notes state that the polarity is as mandated by CSA electrical bulletin 895b. Anyone know what that means? I'd hate to plug in the cord and fry my machine. Thanks, Jeff From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sat Sep 11 23:21:35 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 Message-ID: <200409120421.AAA23299@ss10.danlan.com> Anybody want one? Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Sun Sep 12 00:13:28 2004 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: please resend any private email Message-ID: <200409120513.i8C5DSTe006737@huey.classiccmp.org> The joys of XP on the laptop - I have a royally trashed system. It downloaded all my email moments before puking. So.... if anyone sent me any email (or posts to the list) yesterday, they are stuck in my laptop and not readable. I know Mr. Rubin is trying to reach me as well as a few other folks. For the time being you can email jwest@ezwind.net and I should get it there. Thanks Jay PS - yesterday night and all day today actually. From cstone at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 11:01:38 2004 From: cstone at gmail.com (cstone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: DiversiDial software In-Reply-To: <200409051818.i85IIBN12376@pop-3.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200409051818.i85IIBN12376@pop-3.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <220ef95304091209011fe5d861@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 14:18:11 -0400, Pete Bartusek wrote: > Looking for a copy of the Apple II Diversi-Dial software. Any leads are > appreciated. thanks! I have two separate working disk images: would you like copies? Incidentally: what are you going to check this out with? In 2002 I (barely) hacked some quick/dirty apple-cat support into an ancient ncurses ][+ emulator ("a2" was the name) and added a bit of network support; it seemed to work okay then. In other emulators, it works, but I've not seen any network support. If you have real hardware, that'd be even better. Real hardware is many times better, of course.. cstone@pobox.com From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Sep 12 18:34:31 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200409122334.i8CNYWju020421@mail.bcpl.net> On 10 Sep 2004 at 20:30, Ron Hudson wrote: > simh hp2100 > > how do I setup the simulator to run the papertape basic? hp2100 HP 2100 simulator V3.2-3 sim> attach ptr basic1.abs sim> boot ptr HALT instruction 102077, P: 77712 (JMP 77700) sim> run 100 READY 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 END RUN HELLO READY ... -- Dave From KParker at workcover.com Sun Sep 12 23:01:46 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Tapes and others Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7C06@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Got a bargain on the weekend - a Compaq 5100e, an IBM PS2 Model 35 and a box of D6525 tapes (38 of them) for ten bucks. Can anyone advise me what these tapes were typically used in and for - they look in very good condition - what type of drives can use them etc. TIA!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From paul at mirams.org Mon Sep 13 13:43:26 2004 From: paul at mirams.org (Paul C. Mirams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Message-ID: Here are the codes for the 8050/8250 http://www.devili.iki.fi/Computers/Commodore/8050/Service_Manual/page_5.html#Flash The 6 flashes indicate a failure in the first bank of 2114 memory. Paul -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 1:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Commodore PET disk drive power-up error codes Hi Guys, Does anyone have information on error-codes that are flashed by PET disk drives after power-up diagnostics fail. I have a drive set which after powerup, enters into a state where it flashes the POWER LED alternating with both drive LEDs (together) - It repeats this flash cycle exactly 6 times, then pauses, then another 6 ... forever. I assume it's a diagnostic failure - Can anyone tell me what it means? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Indexind at aol.com Mon Sep 13 14:04:19 2004 From: Indexind at aol.com (Indexind@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: REPAIR TAPE PUNCH Message-ID: DO YOU REPAIR TAPE PUNCH DSI LRP 300X OR ABR PREFERIC ZIP 200 LP OR KNOW SOMEONE WHO DOES? THANKS, PAUL/INDEX INDUSTRIES INDEXIND@AOL.COM. From ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se Mon Sep 13 16:00:07 2004 From: ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se (Ulf Andersson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill Sudbrink may have written: > Another data point plus an "Arg!"... > Ohio Scientific was quite fond of 2114s (Arg!). It looks like > the cause of the power supply failure in my C4P is that one of > the 24K memory cards (48 2114s) was drawing well over spec, even > though it appeared to be providing reliable memory operation. It > was populated with the LC (low power CMOS) 2114 chip. According > to specs on the web, these should draw 40 milliamps max. I pulled > 10 at random. Not one pulled less than 70. Now, I tested them > with all pins floating other than power and ground and I wonder > how much difference that makes, but totaling up an average of 75 > per chip gives about what the card as a whole draws when in > operation. The other card, populated with another vendors 2114s, > draws over 1/2 amp less when in operation, reflecting about 42 > milliamps per chip. When I was designing I/O boards for spaceborne computers I once saw what happens when most inputs are left floating on CMOS designs. This was a design full of (~30) 54HCxx ICs. When powered up, the boards power consumption varied wildly from almost nothing to way above spec. You could play the power consumption by waving your hands above the board. Thim makes me conclude that in order to correctly measure stand by current consumption on any CMOS circuit, you _must_ tie all unused inputs to either Vdd or Vss, whichever makes most sense. If the input of a CMOS inverter is left floating, there is a good chance it will stay somewhere in the middle between high and low and both transistors will be half open for current to flow all the way from Vdd to Vss. If the input is tied to Vdd or Vss, then at least one of the transistors will be shut off, and very little current will flow. This is all there is to CMOS low static current con- sumption. Thank you for listening. /Ulf Andersson Veteran computerist in spe. From tdburfo at sandia.gov Tue Sep 14 12:55:13 2004 From: tdburfo at sandia.gov (Burford, Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: TU 10 Message-ID: Tom, Will look but I don't think we have brakets, but I had a come question for you. Do you have an operating manual for the TU 10? Do you know where I might find one? Thanks Will let you know about the brackets. Thomas D. Burford, PMP Sandia National Laboratories 1515 Eubank Ave. MS 0634 Albuquerque, NM 87185-0634 Phone: 505 845-9893 Fax: 505 844-4797 Pager: 505 530-8261 Email: tdburfo@sandia.gov From edward at groenenberg.net Tue Sep 14 15:35:35 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: today's score : RK06 & RK07 drive Message-ID: <41475617.D979AD45@groenenberg.net> Today was a good day for me, I picked up 2 RK drives, a RK06 and a RK07. The airfilter of the RK06 was changed in 2000, so it seems that this drive has been in use not that long ago. The RK07 has a filter a little older, but looks also clean (as are the drives internally). Ed -- edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S From drb at msu.edu Tue Sep 14 22:21:32 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage Message-ID: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> There was an HP3000/922 at MSU Salvage today, with what looked like a disk cabinet (similar size and shape to the processor cabinet) and some cables. No idea whether any of it works. No apparent software or manuals. I may grab it on Friday if it's still there. If it didn't sell today it should be safe until then, as that's the next public sale day. If anyone wants this thing, let me know. I have little enough time and spare cubic volume in my life without adopting machines I know nothing about. Someone who already loves this family would make it a better home. De From KParker at workcover.com Wed Sep 15 01:03:08 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7C26@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> You can do something with them - keep them and start your own computer museum :-) ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Isbell Sent: Monday, 13 September 2004 9:08 AM To: Mail List for Computer Talk Subject: New to the list I just joined because I have a garage full of old computers that my wife said, "either do something with them or get rid of them." So I am here to make a decision, one or the other. ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From sharty at ccbs.com Wed Sep 15 01:13:46 2004 From: sharty at ccbs.com (Mike Shartiag) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: M200 card reader Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040915011228.0523e320@204.233.235.7> Did you have any luck in getting this running ?? As the article made it sound like you were shooting for an Apple did you happen to have the DEC card with it ?? I'm siting on one waiting for the M843 card. From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Wed Sep 15 01:34:37 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts Message-ID: <200409150634.CAA17785@ss10.danlan.com> "Charles H. Dickman" wrote: |I can try to replace the pad with something I have, because I don't want |to damage the cylinder any more than it already is. What was the |original material: rubber, leather? Anyone tried this before? I made a pad from a LEGO tire filled with Duro plastic rubber. The latter no longer seems to be available (maybe the solvent was too nasty?) but Goop might be a substitute. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From cc at w140.com Wed Sep 15 10:03:51 2004 From: cc at w140.com (cc@w140.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: pdp-11 hardware and documentation - free Message-ID: <200409151503.LAA26378@ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Dear World, We have here at CCNY some hardware and documentation for a DEC PDP-11/73 system. If these pieces are not taken in the next day or two, they will be discarded. The documentation can wait a little longer. Items: - DEC RX-02 dual floppy drive - Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System - Kennedy 9-track tape drive with Western Peripheral interface Please email me soon at cc@w140.com if you are interested. The items are free. CCNY is in /USA/NYC/Harlem. thanks, -kurt PS: I will be posting another message soon with a list of the manuals that we are giving away as well. From cb at mythtech.net Wed Sep 15 12:08:44 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: laptop incident Message-ID: >Games? I'd say buy a PS2 or gamecube. > >Or, to be a bit more classic, a Saturn, NeoGeo, or TG16. > >Why screw up your computer choice for games when a seperate game box is >only $50-$150 (depending on which one and how you feel about >referbished). Agreed, but there are also a large number of games that aren't available for those platforms. Many of those are network based multiplayer games. And when I'm asked computer choice questions, often the "games" idea that comes up is because the kid's friends are all playing some windows game and they feel left out. Usually when I mention buying a PS2 or GameCube, I'm told they already own one. What it all boils down to when I give a recommendation is... a computer is just another tool to get a job done. So you have to decide what job you need done, and from there you get the right tool for the job. There are many places where Windows is the only, or better choice. There are many where a Mac is the only or better choice. And ones that neither are the right choice. -chris From wacarder at usit.net Wed Sep 15 12:18:51 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron References: Message-ID: <003601c49b48$12550990$5a120f14@mcothran1> I see that my www.woffordwitch.com site is getting a little traffic today. Can you folks let me know if you have any difficulty with the site, or any problems with pages rendering properly? I think that it's only been tested using Internet Explorer on Windows, so this will be a good shakedown with the variety of operating systems and browsers that are used by the group here. I suppose I should update the site to include some info on the *REAL* PDP-11 installation. I haven't made any site updates since I moved the system from the simh simulator to the real hardware. Thanks, Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:25 AM Subject: RE: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > > Festival > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:08 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > > > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > > > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > > > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > > > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > > > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > > > PDP-11/34. > > > > Ashley, > > > > That is a very cool website! > > Thanks. It was originally put together just for my old college buddies > and retired professor, but I'll share it with the rest of you folks. I > need to update it to include some info and pictures of my real PDP-11 > computer center that is now growing and coming along quite nicely. > > Ashley > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > Computers ] > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 15 12:40:18 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> Thim makes me conclude that in order to correctly measure >>> stand by current consumption on any CMOS circuit, you >>> _must_ tie all unused inputs to either Vdd or Vss, >>> whichever makes most sense. >>> >>> If the input of a CMOS inverter is left floating, there is >>> a good chance it will stay somewhere in the middle between >>> high and low and both transistors will be half open for >>> current to flow all the way from Vdd to Vss. If the input >>> is tied to Vdd or Vss, then at least one of the transistors >>> will be shut off, and very little current will flow. This >>> is all there is to CMOS low static current con- sumption. >>> The above is quite correct. Over current is merely one of the effects of Leaving CMOS inputs floating. What gets real interesting are the bi-directional pins which Need to be terminated when they are inputs, but not HARD tied when they are outputs. This offten requires some "scaffolding" curcuitry to power up a board "outside of its native habitat". From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:30:52 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: tan ADM3A+ with Zilog plate Message-ID: <20040915173052.19368.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> I've found a tan LSI AMD3A+ OEM'd by Zilog (has the Zilog name/logo on the front faceplate). Never seen one of these before. What did it go to? Any info? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 15 12:40:49 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: simh qustions In-Reply-To: <200409122334.i8CNYWju020421@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200409122334.i8CNYWju020421@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <61E7E394-073E-11D9-BB50-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Thanks.... woulda never guessed. On Sep 12, 2004, at 4:34 PM, J. David Bryan wrote: > On 10 Sep 2004 at 20:30, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> simh hp2100 >> >> how do I setup the simulator to run the papertape basic? > > hp2100 > > HP 2100 simulator V3.2-3 > sim> attach ptr basic1.abs > sim> boot ptr > > HALT instruction 102077, P: 77712 (JMP 77700) > sim> run 100 > > READY > 10 PRINT "HELLO" > 20 END > RUN > HELLO > > READY > > ... > > -- Dave > From wacarder at usit.net Wed Sep 15 12:42:58 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron Message-ID: <000e01c49b4b$70c9c3a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Also, I know that the "identify yourself" page is probably annoying, but this was my tracking mechanism for keeping track of my buddies using the web site. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > I see that my www.woffordwitch.com site is getting a little traffic today. > Can you folks let me know if you have any difficulty with the site, or any > problems with pages rendering properly? I think that it's only been > tested using Internet Explorer on Windows, so this will be a good > shakedown with the variety of operating systems and browsers that > are used by the group here. I suppose I should update the site to > include some info on the *REAL* PDP-11 installation. I haven't made > any site updates since I moved the system from the simh simulator to > the real hardware. > > Thanks, > Ashley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Carder" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:25 AM > Subject: RE: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > > > Festival > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 12:08 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: RE: rewriting legacy OS for new iron > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > > > > > I have a RSTS/E system on the internet running under simh. It's late > > > > 1970s vintage, RSTS/E V7. Do you have a preference of an account > > > > number that you would like me to set up for you? (no, don't ask for a > > > > privileged account yet!) Mine is a recreation of the Wofford College > > > > system of 1977-79. For more info, go to http://www.woffordwitch.com. > > > > I also have this system SYSGENed on RL02 packs and running on a real > > > > PDP-11/34. > > > > > > Ashley, > > > > > > That is a very cool website! > > > > Thanks. It was originally put together just for my old college buddies > > and retired professor, but I'll share it with the rest of you folks. I > > need to update it to include some info and pictures of my real PDP-11 > > computer center that is now growing and coming along quite nicely. > > > > Ashley > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > Computer Festival > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------ > > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > > Computers ] > > > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > > > > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 15 12:45:55 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: TU 10 References: Message-ID: <16712.32723.512000.146803@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas Burford writes: Thomas> Tom, Will look but I don't think we have brakets, but I had a Thomas> come question for you. Do you have an operating manual for Thomas> the TU 10? Do you know where I might find one? Look in Al Kossow's archive, dec/magtape, there are TM03 and TM11 manuals. TM03 is the drive, TM11 is the controller. The TM03 User's Manual is likely a good place to start. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 15 12:57:44 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: PDP hardware available Message-ID: <02e001c49b4d$807bca80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> The following lead crossed my desk.... "Within the next month, I am going to decommission two PDP11s (11/23 Plus and 11/84).... Are you interested in any of our hardware?" If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. The equipment is apparently in the Franklin (minneapolis), Minnesota area. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 15 12:59:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: MORE PDP hardware available, different deal... UK this time Message-ID: <02fa01c49b4d$c52c0500$033310ac@kwcorp.com> trying to find a home for the following DEC bits: DEC microPDP-11/23 (Fully working) 512 kWord memory, 2 x RX50 floppy, 1 x 40 MB hard disk Boots RSX-11M, with full set of RSX-11M manuals DEC Rainbow 100+ (Fully working) 512 kB RAM, 2 x RX50 floppy, 1 x 10 MB hard disk (RAM & graphics expansion board fitted.) DEC colour monitor, 2 keyboards. Boots CP/M & MSDOS, DEC VT240 terminal (Not working - reason unknown) With manuals, keyboards & small green screen monitor We are currently looking to dispose of these because we no longer have space for them. If you know of anyone who may be interested in the kit AND is prepared to arrange for collection from the North West of the United Kingdom we would be glad to hear from them. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 15 13:23:18 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16711.36461.967538.320064@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16711.36461.967538.320064@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <41488896.9060109@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Jason" == Jason McBrien writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > Jason> > >> I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest > >> PDP11 one could find? > > Jason> How about one of these: > Jason> http://www.comwaretech.com/products/legacy_solutions/reviver11.shtml > > Jason> in one of these: http://www.dolch.com/html/flexpac.html > > Jason> .. Or run SIMH on one of these: > Jason> http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/products.php?categories=1&model=146 > >Nah, just run it (or E11) on a laptop. SIMH might even run on a >pocket PC, that would be neat. > > What you want is the RSTS Watch ;) From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 15 13:27:35 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41488997.2070803@srv.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> What do you have to trade? I have quite a number of games on there, >> including the Basic Plus version of ADVENTure. > > > Do either of you happen to have DND? > > Zane > Is this what you are looking for? http://members.tripod.com/~rancourt/default.htm From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 15 13:15:57 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Master of Orion (was: Re: laptop incident) In-Reply-To: <200409142201.i8EM1JlW028830@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 04 03:01:19 pm Message-ID: <200409151815.OAA01163@wordstock.com> And thusly Zane H. Healy spake: > > > Because some of the best games (IMHO) are for the PC only such as Age of > > Empires, or oldies like Master of Orion. I have a Dreamcast, PSX, and even > > Gee, I'd best not tell my PowerMac G5 2x2 that the Mac version of Master of > Orion I run on it doesn't exist :^) > > Zane I loved sending in a swarm of thousands of little ships to take out almost anything! :-D Cheers, Bryan From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 13:16:53 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915141436.031ee178@192.168.0.1> At 05:00 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: >When I was designing I/O boards for spaceborne computers I once saw >what happens when most inputs are left floating on CMOS designs. This >was a design full of (~30) 54HCxx ICs. > >Thank you for listening. gak! 54xx IC's -- No wonder the space program cost so much! Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 13:08:28 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Dead IMI-drive (was Re: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well) In-Reply-To: <492989186@web.de> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915140704.0345ae98@192.168.0.1> At 11:29 AM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >I've got lots of hard drives (approx. 350) in any size and age you can >imagine but I've never seen one with a dead motor which causes a short >circuit. >It's quite rare, isn't it ? I've always lumped failures into HDA or Logic board. But I've never seen a short as you describe. Considering the thin enamel insulation on the wires, and the stress of winding the coils, I'm surprised it's as rare as it is. c'est la vie. Ed From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Sep 15 13:39:04 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: today's score : RK06 & RK07 drive In-Reply-To: <41475617.D979AD45@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915143341.03422950@192.168.0.1> At 04:35 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >Today was a good day for me, I picked up 2 RK drives, a RK06 and a RK07. >The airfilter of the RK06 was changed in 2000, so it seems that this >drive has been in use not that long ago. The RK07 has a filter a little >older, but looks also clean (as are the drives internally). > >Ed Good stuff. You must have packs for them. Did RSTS systems for several electric coops on 2 or 3 RK07s. Must be the phase of the moon or something. I found a PDP8E with TU56 and PRS01 paper tape reader and bunch of spare boards. If health physics will survey it out as ok (it's in the bowels of the local nuclear fuel plant), I've got a neat system to play with - and to buy stuff for. :-) Ed K. (to distinguish from rest of the Eds on the list) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 15 13:42:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: Already spoken for (Re: MORE PDP hardware available, different deal... UK this time) References: <02fa01c49b4d$c52c0500$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <037801c49b53$d0c55280$033310ac@kwcorp.com> The UK hardware has been claimed by a listmember. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 15 13:45:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage References: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <038e01c49b54$1d045d80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I could be interested in this one, not sure. Does anyone know where there's a picture of this model online? I can't seem to google one. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From aek at spies.com Wed Sep 15 14:05:11 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:10 2005 Subject: TU 10 Message-ID: <20040915190511.D4C053CF6@spies.com> Thomas> Tom, Will look but I don't think we have brakets, but I had a Thomas> come question for you. Do you have an operating manual for Thomas> the TU 10? Do you know where I might find one? -- I have TU10 docs scanned. Will work on getting them up on bitsavers. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 14:12:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1095275558.4218.24.camel@fiche.wps.com> > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > I was assuming PC audio cards would not be fast enough. > On Sat, 2004-09-11 at 19:24, John Lawson wrote: > What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another reason to slow > the drum; see below further... It's 80KHz. So you think that slowing the motor speed say 4X will not affect the head outputs more than proportionately? I'm a bit wary of this, partly out of ignorance (relatively speaking; I know the physics involved, and I know electronics, but I know enough now that I know I don't know more than I do know -- now). IOTW, there's always Another Factor, like relying on the slope of the signal off the head, etc etc. > > The disk has one (or a few) timing tracks. I assumed I would record the > > timing track plus a data track; hence all recordings would have a > > reference. > If you could trigger a simple pulse to SMPTE converter, and if the data > rate of the "index" pulse is slow enough, then your synce problems get > solved... Well I was an idiot writing before I went back and re-read it all. There's three timing tracks, one of them though is the sector address, and the timing pulses are all derived. > [Aside: I always wanted to have a manual entitles: "The Book of > Armaments"] (It could never be big enough! :-) > >> if you > >> could get a 'whole drum after this pulse' (sort of like capturing one > >> video frame) sync set up, then you could record each track onto a similar > >> parallel track in the DAW.... Physical geometry is 32 heads * 128 sectors, logically juggled to re-create the LGP-30's 64 * 64. There are six spare tracks with spare heads over them. THe simplest thing (sic) would be to brute-force record 32 tracks at once. Assuming the data isn't totally awful, sync could be derived easily from the captured data set. > > Another choice is to simply disable writing electrically, and use the > > computer itself. The biggest worry (at this point) is head/platter > > issues. THe heads contact at rest, then lift. The mechanical issues > > exist no matter the data-recovery method. > > Yeah. I'd intercept the 'lift' line and do that manually. before spin-up, > if this is at all possible. There's a transistor clamp that drags write current to ground, a diode per head, in each head block. Easy to block writing with a few clip leads. Umm, the heads have no lift mechanism! They run on the nickel surface until it's up to speed. > > Well the problem as I see it is deterioration of the magnetic > > surface/circuit, and changing motor speed won't improve that (probably). > > Lost data is secondary to a lost timing track! That would be ruinous, I > > have no idea how I'd re-create that. Certainly, I need a copy of that. > > On a system this old, with (relatively) large data tracks, I think that > there would probably be recognizable pulses at slower speeds... Well there's two things about the memory data: the timing tracks are utterly critical of course, but there's only three of those. So I should capture those in excruciating detail. All "data" data is relative to those timing tracks obviously. So if I captured the timing tracks now, and for some reason had to re-write them -- or another LGP-21 were found, wiped, they could be re-written with an external PC and simple hardware interface. Of course the "data" data would be lost, but the machine could be made to work. So unless someone wants to loan me a 32-channel X 8-bit A/D system, at this point I think I will simply disable writes and bring the machine up, and find some way to record the three timing tracks at sufficient resolution to re-create that data. After reforming caps, power supply checkout, etc etc etc. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 15 14:18:10 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Replicas - was Re: *** Ideas needed for developing interactive References: <20040913023823.GC2201@bos7.spole.gov> <20040913040206.GC9817@bos7.spole.gov> <5.2.0.9.2.20040915053230.0364bbd0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <41489572.8070209@jetnet.ab.ca> Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 10:51 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: > >> Remember to use 1 GHZ transistors too! > > > I think the original proposal included scattering some LED's around for > blinkenlights also. > Guess you'll need some 1GHz LED's then too. > > Ed > But if you ever did a copy of a PDP 8/S the tricky part is I think DEC used PNP transistors and ge diodes rather than NPN transistors and si diodes.. Note the voltage levels I think are -3 volts and GND so you could use modern CMOS and get almost the same functions but a flip/chip I guess would be 1/3 the size if you could get the sockets shrunk down. Also the core memory could be replaced with a non-volatile magnetic memory. ( 3.3v logic ) From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 14:22:03 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Tek 8560 In-Reply-To: <20040912111409.5c0e5252.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20040912041128.48D293C9C@spies.com> <20040912111409.5c0e5252.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1095276123.4218.29.camel@fiche.wps.com> I think my original posting about this machine was missing info: The Tek 8560 is at Apex Electronics, Sun Valley CA, along with the bunch of Tandy and other stuff I mentioned. I am not retrieving any of it. It's there for the asking. Not sure if they'll ship: http://www.apexelectronic.com/ Ask for Mike, or Don (owner). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 15 14:22:55 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: today's score : RK06 & RK07 drive References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915143341.03422950@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <4148968F.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Must be the phase of the moon or something. > I found a PDP8E with TU56 and PRS01 paper tape reader and bunch of spare > boards. > If health physics will survey it out as ok (it's in the bowels of the > local nuclear fuel plant), > I've got a neat system to play with - and to buy stuff for. :-) > > Ed K. (to distinguish from rest of the Eds on the list) OH, you are the ED with that strange green glow. :) > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 15 14:28:09 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: today's score : RK06 & RK07 drive References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915143341.03422950@192.168.0.1> <4148968F.2090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <414897C9.90809@jetnet.ab.ca> ben franchuk wrote: > Ed Kelleher wrote: > >> Must be the phase of the moon or something. >> I found a PDP8E with TU56 and PRS01 paper tape reader and bunch of >> spare boards. >> If health physics will survey it out as ok (it's in the bowels of the >> local nuclear fuel plant), >> I've got a neat system to play with - and to buy stuff for. :-) >> >> Ed K. (to distinguish from rest of the Eds on the list) > > > OH, you are the ED with that strange green glow. :) > Also on second thought too, I wonder if the computer they replace the PDP/8 will be as reliable in use? From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 14:43:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> References: <4144FCE2.2040900@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <1095277408.4218.36.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 2004-09-12 at 18:50, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Specifically a print cylinder and a new pad for the print hammer. Does > anyone know of a source for these two items? All the Greenkeyers seem quite happy with simple stick-on rubber feet, aka "bump-ons". They are close enough to the original density and size. Electronics places sell them, eg. Fry's Electronics (evil thieves) here in Fornicalia. Remove all the gummed rubber and degrease the hammer lever with alcohol etc and it should last a long time. The print cylinder, I have no idea. Someone might have a junked '33 you can filch one from. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 14:46:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away in So Cal. In-Reply-To: <20040913074958.99561.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040913074958.99561.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1095277585.4218.37.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 00:49, steven wrote: > print "Hello world\n"; > > I have two AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away. > You pay shipping only. And also a Snickers bar. I'll take the Snickers bar. Thanks! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 15 14:47:55 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Dead IMI-drive (was Re: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well) In-Reply-To: <492989186@web.de> References: <492989186@web.de> Message-ID: In message <492989186@web.de> "Pierre Gebhardt" wrote: > This reversed diode sits on a small PCB outside the motor. > I disconnected it, having the two wires of the 24V DC Motor in my hands. > There's almost no measurable resistor between these wires... this leads me to the assumption that the coil produces a short circuit. > Connecting the motor wires directly to the 24V connectors of the power supply leads to a shutdown when beeing turned on. Is it possible that the drive may be suffering from sticktion? If the head is stuck to the drive platter to the point of the spindle motor and platters being completely jammed, depending on the motor, I suspect you might get a near-dead short. Is there any way to rotate the motor spindle/head positioner without ripping the cover off the HDA? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Never attribute to malice that which may be explained by stupidity. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 15 15:04:38 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: AIM-65 black plastic cases for give-away in So Cal. In-Reply-To: <1095277585.4218.37.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> I'll take the Snickers bar. Thanks! >>> Minor allergy to Nuts...[including the varieties found here], would any one have a Three Muskateers? From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 15 15:00:56 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: today's score : RK06 & RK07 drive In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915143341.03422950@192.168.0.1> References: <41475617.D979AD45@groenenberg.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20040915143341.03422950@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <8182.62.177.191.201.1095278456.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, I have 2 RK07's already. This RK07 goes to Henk Gooijen, and I'm doubting what to do with the RK06. Either I keep it, or swap it for something else. It came with one pack (clean), so it can be used. Ed > At 04:35 PM 9/14/2004, you wrote: >>Today was a good day for me, I picked up 2 RK drives, a RK06 and a RK07. >>The airfilter of the RK06 was changed in 2000, so it seems that this >>drive has been in use not that long ago. The RK07 has a filter a little >>older, but looks also clean (as are the drives internally). >> >>Ed > > Good stuff. You must have packs for them. > Did RSTS systems for several electric coops on 2 or 3 RK07s. > > Must be the phase of the moon or something. > I found a PDP8E with TU56 and PRS01 paper tape reader and bunch of spare > boards. > If health physics will survey it out as ok (it's in the bowels of the > local > nuclear fuel plant), > I've got a neat system to play with - and to buy stuff for. :-) > > Ed K. (to distinguish from rest of the Eds on the list) > > > > From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 15:09:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1095278970.4218.61.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 08:44, Paul Koning wrote: > John> What can the actual drum clock be... I dunno... another > John> reason to slow the drum; see below further... > > No, don't do that. The heads might not fly if you do that, and you'd > end up with an instant head crash on every head. As I wrote earlier, they are contact heads, but you are correct, running them at reduced speed would prevent them from lifting ever, rather than just the speed up/down time duration. (The heads are pressed against the platter with a small spring, with a few grams of force, to counter-act the lift. There's an adjustment procedure in the hardw. man. for setting it.) > Digitizing at 8 bits, more if you can get it easily, and minimally 8x > the data clock rate sounds like the way to go. That's clearly more > than the original used. The argument for doing so is that it will > give you a way to recover data that would not be recoverable with the > original electronics. Agreed. This would be 3-channels of 8-bit at 640Ksamples/sec to get the timing tracks, or 35-channels for timing+data. The thing is, after RTFM and this discussion I'm leaning towards disabling writes, machine bring-up, then record timing tracks as digital data: a) I have to spin the platters under the heads (note1) b) I can reasonably assure writing will not ruin the data. c) There's a good chance the platter is OK; if not this path should cause no more harm than any other approach. (note1: There is a way to recover the data without spinning it, but it's a little out-there: remove the platter, clean, apply that magnetic fluid (sic) used to make bits visible, and *optically* make a copy of the disk. It's not *that* crazy, but it's extremely unlikely I'll attempt this. The disk is only about 80 bits/inch, it's not too crazy.) If the timing tracks turn out to be bad, or read amps are off etc, I can get more exhaustive. From george at rachors.com Wed Sep 15 15:14:24 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <200409120421.AAA23299@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: Where is is located? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Dan Lanciani wrote: > Anybody want one? > > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com > From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Sep 15 15:16:13 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: tan ADM3A+ with Zilog plate Message-ID: <12b.4bb54773.2e79fd0d@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/04 10:46:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rich_bramante@yahoo.com writes: I've found a tan LSI AMD3A+ OEM'd by Zilog (has the Zilog name/logo on the front faceplate). Never seen one of these before. What did it go to? Any info? Probably a Zilog Development system of the late 70s or early 80s. We got several with Intel labels in the 90s in Portland. I think ADM OEM them to anyone who wanted their own colors. You might look in the EPROMs, they might be custom or not..... I don't think the Intels were any different other than the color. Paxton Astoria, OR From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 16:00:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> Message-ID: <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 10:36, John Foust wrote: > Anyone care to give a thumbnail sketch of what sampling rates > would be necessary to digitize the signals on recording media > (3 1/2", 5 1/4", 8" floppy, hard disks, drums, disk packs, etc.) > at sufficient rates to preserve the encoding for post-processing > in other tools? > > I saw one reference online that said 3 1/2" and 5 1/4" floppies > were 250-500 kbit/s. If we were digitizing at a much higher > rate than the original simple circuitry that might've only > detected flux traversals, couldn't we recover more data? I do not consider myself a magnetic-media expert, but I've made a number of (low-density) controllers and en/de-coding schemes, and repaired others, and read a lot (in one ear out the other probably). I figure there are a few failure modes that would be easy for amateurs (like me) to recover, like low-gain, dissipated magnetics (grain randomization, etc), and such, that would be amenable to software repair. Data sleuthing like that being done on "Archimedes Method" palimpsest (on TV last night, BTW) is way out of my league, but at least the raw data would be there for future generations, etc. Secondary issues might be, for example, the data on my LGP-21 platter is fine, but the surface, now 40 years old, has changed physical structure, however subtlely, and say, ruins heads/ruined by heads. So it's OK for a day, week or month, then becomes bad. I think this is even likely. It could be that, after bring-up, data snapshot and recovery, the platter could be cleaned, re-polished, heads examined (including mine), and simply put back into use. I'm thinking that a light, in-place cleaning might be a good idea (using 70's tech cleaning aids for Eagle-type removable packs, down through the head hole in the case) before spin up, but of course there's the danger of doing harm. It's all a gamble, and without a budget and even much time I'm not sure how to approach it. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 16:05:09 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <20040913233729.750FD3C61@spies.com> References: <20040913233729.750FD3C61@spies.com> Message-ID: <1095282309.4218.75.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 16:37, Al Kossow wrote: > The only problem I see is people on this list underestimate the > costs involved in putting something together that works. Oh I'm aware of this, and never mind mission-creep (eg. ever-expanding projects, especially when one isn't doing the actual work :-) > For the most part, analog level recovery isn't necessary. Modern > digital data separators will recover most media, which reduces the > data rates substantially. The issues at hand are the "analog" ones though, physics and materials. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 15 16:08:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <57C9C794-05FC-11D9-A6A1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16710.64919.881000.299904@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1095282533.4218.79.camel@fiche.wps.com> Isn't this sort of task better handled by a CPU-instruction-set-type simulator? Sheesh, with the CPUs we have today you could code it up in Perl and get good performance. Hardware interface though would be a Really Big Deal. You could always Punt and when you get to a read-disk-block OS call, palm it off on the host OS. This approach isn't new, it's as old as stored-program computing. On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 07:17, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Would there be any interest in re-writing somthing like RSTS/E, > Ron> ITS, TWENEX or one of the other legacy OS to work on x86 > Ron> machines? The idea would be to do something like Linux has done > Ron> for unix but for one of the other OSs, I think all the ones I > Ron> mentioned ran on pdp machines, whatever we choose to write could > Ron> have once run on anything. > > What would it mean to "run" such an OS on an x86? Consider RSTS, > which is the only one of those three I know well. The OS itself is > 100% assembly language. The system services are defined in terms of > request blocks in low user memory along with system call instructions > (EMT opcode of the PDP-11). Applications were generally written in > Basic-Plus (or -2), or in PDP11 assembler; rarely in some other > language such as TECO, or FORTH, or others. > > I could imagine creating a Basic-Plus environment that emulates that > aspect of RSTS. I could also imagine a BP2 compiler that generates > X86 code. The surrounding machinery -- "run time systems", the system > service semantics, etc. -- that would be tricky. Assuming you get > that far, you have a user mode analog of the original, so old > applications (if written in Basic-Plus or BP2) would run. The same > would go for TECO. Assembly language applications have no chance > short of running an emulator at least for user mode. The same goes > for FORTH, since it tends to hook right into the assembly style system > service API, though obviously you could replace just that small part > and keep the rest. > > paul From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 16:35:27 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Fwd: pdp-11 hardware and documentation - free Message-ID: <20040915213527.86309.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> --- cc@w140.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:03:51 -0400 (EDT) > From: cc@w140.com > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > Subject: pdp-11 hardware and documentation - free > > Dear World, > > We have here at CCNY some hardware and documentation > for a DEC PDP-11/73 > system. If these pieces are not taken in the next > day or two, they will > be discarded. The documentation can wait a little > longer. > > Items: > > - DEC RX-02 dual floppy drive > - Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System > - Kennedy 9-track tape drive with Western Peripheral > interface > > Please email me soon at cc@w140.com if you are > interested. The items > are free. CCNY is in /USA/NYC/Harlem. thanks, > -kurt > > PS: I will be posting another message soon with a > list of the manuals > that we are giving away as well. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 16:35:27 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Fwd: pdp-11 hardware and documentation - free Message-ID: <20040915213527.86309.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> --- cc@w140.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:03:51 -0400 (EDT) > From: cc@w140.com > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > Subject: pdp-11 hardware and documentation - free > > Dear World, > > We have here at CCNY some hardware and documentation > for a DEC PDP-11/73 > system. If these pieces are not taken in the next > day or two, they will > be discarded. The documentation can wait a little > longer. > > Items: > > - DEC RX-02 dual floppy drive > - Grinnell GMR270 Image Processing System > - Kennedy 9-track tape drive with Western Peripheral > interface > > Please email me soon at cc@w140.com if you are > interested. The items > are free. CCNY is in /USA/NYC/Harlem. thanks, > -kurt > > PS: I will be posting another message soon with a > list of the manuals > that we are giving away as well. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 15 17:07:16 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Old Compac Portable References: <200409120011.i8C0AvJX022657@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4148BD14.30203@cableone.net> I don't know if this is anything anyone would be interested in, but in the Thrift shop where I volunteer there is a Compaq portable that is fairly old in that it is about the size of a Suitcase and weighs over 30 lbs. It is priced at $7 and no one is buying it yet. If you have an interest in it I will work to facilitate if for you. I have NO financial interest in this computer, I only work as a volunteer. But I hate to see it go into the dumpster in a couple of months if someone wants it. The thrift shop is in South Texas so shipping could be your biggest cost. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 17:19:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <9ED9D480-046E-11D9-AE6D-000A95682B94@ameritech.net> References: <9ED9D480-046E-11D9-AE6D-000A95682B94@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <1095286758.17130.35.camel@weka.localdomain> > If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and > you pay shipping to and from me. Not entirely sure who's offering this - Luke or Curt? can a raw disk image be taken by smeone? (I presume Ghost is Norton Ghost, in which case isn't it a Windows app and also not a free program?) If someone can get a raw image rather than a program-specific one then I'm sure it could be put on bitsavers for preservation. (besides, the post doesn't say where the person who has this lives - I don't fancy shipping a hard drive overseas and back somehow; expensive and risky!) Anyone know how much memory the TT needs in order to run this? Plus, is there support for the built-in network (Appletalk IIRC)? (Far as I remember, there isn't in FreeBSD) It'd be an interesting thing to have on our museum TT030... cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 15 17:57:31 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Un-Acclaimed... Message-ID: <20040915225731.16536.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> I just saw a Sept. 1 post on FuckedCompany.com: >>> Rumor has it after 17 years of making video games, Acclaim just filed Chapter 7 bankruptcy and laid off all 600 employees. <<< - Evan K. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 15 18:25:42 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Software Free for postage Message-ID: <4148CF76.5040600@cableone.net> I have a two disk set (5 1/4" floppies) of "The Deluxe Computer Edition SCRABBLE" these are originals, not copies. I don't know if they are good or not. I don't even have a working 5 1/4" floppy to test them on. But for postage they go to the first one who wants them. ($3.58 will cover Priority Mail anywhere in the lower 48) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 15 18:35:03 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Un-Acclaimed... In-Reply-To: <20040915225731.16536.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer > Collector E-Mail Newsletter > Sent: 15 September 2004 23:58 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Un-Acclaimed... > > I just saw a Sept. 1 post on FuckedCompany.com: > > >>> Rumor has it after 17 years of making video games, Acclaim just > >>> filed > Chapter 7 bankruptcy and laid off all 600 employees. <<< That was in the UK IT news last week; you should be able to find it by searching for 'acclaim' in www.theregister.com. Cheers a From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 18:16:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord In-Reply-To: <14.337a6517.2e75287e@aol.com> from "JMeyer101@aol.com" at Sep 12, 4 00:20:14 am Message-ID: > > Jack, > > Thanks for the info on the power cords. I looked up the two cords and they > both look very close. I will contact Newark on Monday to verify the distance > between pins. The 17952 has a note that states it is made with non-standard > polarization. Do you or anyone else on cctech know how I can tell if it's > the correct polarity for the Intellec? The 17280's notes state that the > polarity is as mandated by CSA electrical bulletin 895b. Anyone know what that > means? I'd hate to plug in the cord and fry my machine. I think this has to do with which of the outside pins is live ('hot') and which is neutral. Getting it wrong won't fry the machine, but it might fry you if there's an electrical fault (the fuse should always be in the live side of the mains, as should any single-pole switches). What you need to do is open up the Intellec and see which pin on the chassis-mounted mains plug goes to the fuseholder. I think the switch comes after the fuse in these machines, but my Intellec, an MCS8i, is non-standard in that I replaced the input connector with a IEC 'kettle plug' type of connector, and also I have a non-standard power switch (replaced by a previous owner). Then you need to see which of the 2 available cables puts the fuse on the live side. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 18:47:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Dead IMI-drive (was Re: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well) In-Reply-To: <492989186@web.de> from "Pierre Gebhardt" at Sep 15, 4 05:29:08 pm Message-ID: > > > >The IMI 7020 hard drive is dead and cannot be fixed: > > >The damn coil of the motor causes a short circuit :( > >=20 > > I'm sure you checked, but possibly could it be motor braking electronic= > s or=20 > > the good old reversed diode across the windings that have shorted, and = > not=20 > > the motor coil itself? > > This reversed diode sits on a small PCB outside the motor. =20 > I disconnected it, having the two wires of the 24V DC Motor in my hands. How many wires does this motoe have in total? If quite a few (6 or more), then I would suspect a motor with electronic commutation on one of the drive PCBs, and it's quite common for the windings of those motors to have very low DC resistances (< 1 ohm). If there are only 2 wires, presumably power connections, I would still suspect an electronically commutated motor (you need to keep the speed pretty constant after all). It's possible there's some circuitry inside the motor, and perhaps a trnasistor has gone short-circuit or something. Can you get inside the motor at all without opening the HDA? (I know it's possible to remove the winding assembly from the motor on a Micropolis 1200 in the field, but it does need special tools...) -tony From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 15 19:25:58 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard Message-ID: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Just what the subject line says... I'm looking for the smallest possible (working) PS/2-style keyboard that exists... all the junk at my local CompUSA is either USB, or has function keys and trackballs and infrared, etc.... I don't want any of that stuff. Can anyone help me? - Evan K. From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 15 19:36:24 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Odd PET 8032 mainboard Message-ID: <20040916003623.EHEB14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Continuing to play with PET's ... So far, all the PET 8032s I've seen (including my SuperPET) use a board which is identical to the 4032 board, except that the 4032 has some buffers and RAM unpopulated (the locations are there), has the jumpers by the video circuitry set differently, and has a different EDIT ROM - I assume this is the "universal" board that they talk about on funet. I recently was given a dead 8032 board (which I have fixed - bad 7805 and also a bad 2114 video RAM - ***another one***). This board is different - it does not have the jumpers near the video circuitry, and the monitor connection is located near the keyboard connector (on the other board the monitor connection is near the edge at the front of the machine). Since there are no jumpers, this board does not appear to be usable at 40 columns. Another odd thing about this board, is that all DRAMs, ROMs, and 40 pin 65xx chips are factory socketed - my other boards had only EDIT rom and 6502 socketed (a few more have been since I repaired them). Aside from the sockets, lack of jumpers and moved video connector, it looks nearly identical to the other board. What board is this? Is this the "early 8032" board that is mentioned on funet? Both boards say "Copyright 1080". Is it electrically different from a "universal" board that is configured for 80 columns? Regards, Dave-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 15 19:39:58 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Odd PET 8032 mainboard Message-ID: <20040916003957.HLWW11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >What board is this? Is this the "early 8032" board that is mentioned on funet? >Both boards say "Copyright 1080". Obviously that should read "Copyright 1980" (Otherwise I would have a REALLY vintage computer). Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Sep 15 19:59:47 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard In-Reply-To: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4148E583.1020708@jcwren.com> A friend of mine has a miniscule PS/2 keyboard. It was about $30 on pricewatch. I've sent him some email, asking what the model number is. Meanwhile, I would suggest checking www.cyberguys.com and www.pricewatch.com. Cyberguys have a lot of goodies, most at semi-reasonable prices. --jc Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: >Just what the subject line says... I'm looking for the smallest possible >(working) PS/2-style keyboard that exists... all the junk at my local CompUSA >is either USB, or has function keys and trackballs and infrared, etc.... I >don't want any of that stuff. > >Can anyone help me? > > - Evan K. > > > From dancohoe at oxford.net Wed Sep 15 20:18:35 2004 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Onyx C8000: good news and bad news as well In-Reply-To: <492737007@web.de> Message-ID: <000901c49b8b$1785ca60$6501a8c0@dcohoe> > > Now the bad news: > > The IMI 7020 hard drive is dead and cannot be fixed: > The damn coil of the motor causes a short circuit :( > > That's why the power supply turns off when the disk drive is > attached... > Even if somebody had a replacement motor (24V) , who could > probably ajust the platters and the heads to find track 0 ?? > I've never seen another IMI drive, they seem pretty special, > with their connectors and all. > > Ok, anyway, I'll concentrate in bringing the machine back to > life without a hard drive but I haven't been very lucky yet. I happened to find one of these (Onyx C8000) this past weekend and there was an extra IMI drive with it. Of course I've not had time to do any checking of it, but possibly both drives are good, ... or neither are.. . At any rate, I'll see what I can do about checking it out. I have no Onyx information and may need advice on what to hook up to try to get it powered up. regards, Dan Cohoe > From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Sep 15 20:43:13 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <000e01c49b4b$70c9c3a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> References: <000e01c49b4b$70c9c3a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > Also, I know that the "identify yourself" page is probably annoying, but > this > was my tracking mechanism for keeping track of my buddies using the web > site. That may be well and good, but I found it intrusive. And a beat later, your site tried to set a cookie; I dumped it immediately and won't be back. I do understand perfectly that your's is an innocuous, semi-private site, and making the info available to the Legacy Computing community is quite laudable - but I'm pretty old-school when it comes to registering for things, and I have cookies turned off permanently, only a very few sites that I absolutely must visit (for business reasons) get to set a goddamn 'cookie', and these get deleted immediately afterward. It's not the thing itself, it's the (curmudgeonly) principle of it. It's in the same ballpark as stupid newspapers wanting me to register to read thier on-line content. I choose not to read, in that case. Cheers "Grumpy-as-Fred" John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 15 20:44:08 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard In-Reply-To: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916014408.GA14188@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 05:25:58PM -0700, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Just what the subject line says... I'm looking for the smallest possible > (working) PS/2-style keyboard that exists... all the junk at my local CompUSA > is either USB, or has function keys and trackballs and infrared, etc.... I > don't want any of that stuff. I like the Happy Hacking Keyboard... I'm currently using a USB model, but I know the older ones were for PS/2 ports... they also sell a Palm III interface cradle that's battery powered... not sure about your use, but the PS2 HHK is ultra-low power (and the Control key is where it _belongs_!) Linux Central (linuxcentral.com) has them in stock - search for the mfg, PFU America. One caution: they are not cheap. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Sep-2004 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -57.9 F (-50.0 C) Windchill -95.2 F (-70.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 024 Barometer 687 mb (10365 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wacarder at usit.net Wed Sep 15 21:07:57 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grumpy-as-Fred-John, Yeah, I knew I would catch some grief over that from the anti- cookie folks. Like I said, the site was originally for a group of about 5 or 6 guys who were working together and it was a somewhat private site, where instead of setting up a user id and password, I just asked their name and then dropped a cookie containing their name so they wouldn't have to login every time they wanted to visit the site. Once they identified themselves, the cookie was there and they were no longer asked to identify themselves. We used to have a somewhat personal "diary" of recollections, but that's not on the site any more. If I'm going to make it more "public", I'll remove the "who are you" box and the cookie and just let it be a plain old public web site. Very-rarely-grumpy-mostly-always-laid-back-Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Lawson > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:43 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Site Privacy issues > > > > > On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > Also, I know that the "identify yourself" page is probably annoying, but > > this > > was my tracking mechanism for keeping track of my buddies using the web > > site. > > That may be well and good, but I found it intrusive. And a > beat later, > your site tried to set a cookie; I dumped it immediately and won't be > back. > > I do understand perfectly that your's is an innocuous, semi-private > site, and making the info available to the Legacy Computing community is > quite laudable - but I'm pretty old-school when it comes to registering > for things, and I have cookies turned off permanently, only a very few > sites that I absolutely must visit (for business reasons) get to set a > goddamn 'cookie', and these get deleted immediately afterward. It's not > the thing itself, it's the (curmudgeonly) principle of it. > > It's in the same ballpark as stupid newspapers wanting me to > register to > read thier on-line content. I choose not to read, in that case. > > Cheers > > "Grumpy-as-Fred" John > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 15 21:28:53 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord Message-ID: <200409160228.TAA28697@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Jack, >> >> Thanks for the info on the power cords. I looked up the two cords and they >> both look very close. I will contact Newark on Monday to verify the distance >> between pins. The 17952 has a note that states it is made with non-standard >> polarization. Do you or anyone else on cctech know how I can tell if it's >> the correct polarity for the Intellec? The 17280's notes state that the >> polarity is as mandated by CSA electrical bulletin 895b. Anyone know what that >> means? I'd hate to plug in the cord and fry my machine. > >I think this has to do with which of the outside pins is live ('hot') and >which is neutral. Getting it wrong won't fry the machine, but it might >fry you if there's an electrical fault (the fuse should always be in the >live side of the mains, as should any single-pole switches). > >What you need to do is open up the Intellec and see which pin on the >chassis-mounted mains plug goes to the fuseholder. I think the switch >comes after the fuse in these machines, but my Intellec, an MCS8i, is >non-standard in that I replaced the input connector with a IEC 'kettle >plug' type of connector, and also I have a non-standard power switch >(replaced by a previous owner). > >Then you need to see which of the 2 available cables puts the fuse on the >live side. > >-tony > Hi When you check this, also check to see that ur wall socket is wired correctly. You'd be surprised how many are not right. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 15 21:42:06 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord In-Reply-To: <200409160228.TAA28697@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409160228.TAA28697@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040915193840.N88504@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > When you check this, also check to see that ur wall socket is > wired correctly. You'd be surprised how many are not right. > Dwight On an ungrounded (2 wire) outlet: 1/2 On a grounded (3 wire) outlet, there are SIX possible wirings. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 15 22:21:50 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Odd PET 8032 mainboard References: <20040916003957.HLWW11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <414906CE.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Obviously that should read "Copyright 1980" (Otherwise I would have a REALLY > vintage computer). Something like COPYWRIGHT MLXXX > Dave From cctalk at drykid.plus.com Thu Sep 16 01:03:11 2004 From: cctalk at drykid.plus.com (Ian West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard References: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014201c49bb2$dc4ffc90$8097a6c3@acmewmis4a7fbx> I've got one of these, which does the job for me: http://www.romdex.co.uk/html/minikeyinf.html I only use it on a home cinema PC where the main requirement is for something that takes up a minimum of space. It's not something I'd want to use in a situation where I needed to do much typing, but if you can cope with a laptop-style keyboard, it should be OK. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:25 AM Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard > Just what the subject line says... I'm looking for the smallest possible > (working) PS/2-style keyboard that exists... all the junk at my local > CompUSA > is either USB, or has function keys and trackballs and infrared, etc.... I > don't want any of that stuff. > > Can anyone help me? > > - Evan K. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Thu Sep 16 03:18:38 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card Message-ID: <200409160118.38747.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> I just recently purchased an old Toshiba T5200/100 Laptop at a thrift store. One of the cards installed in it was an old 8-bit device of some sort. First of all, here are pictures of the card in question. http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-0.JPG http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-1.JPG Can anyone here help me identify what this card is, and more importantly, where I can download MS-DOS drivers for it? It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large socketed chip says: WD33C93A-PL 00-08 9031 069660200102 PROTO Other markings state: Type II Controller, and Rev. -5 The FCC ID number is D8I6I2 60201. Just taking a wild guess, I suspect that this is some sort of SCSI Controller. However, I could not find it in the TH99 archives. The only match for Maynard on Driverguide is for a 16-Bit SCSI driver from Seagate. Also, I could not find any info on Seagate's site either. So, anyone here have any info on this card and possibly know where to get drivers for it? From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 16 03:35:23 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <200409160118.38747.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> References: <200409160118.38747.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916013433.039d20f0@mail.zipcon.net> I haven't seen one of those in years... i'm pretty sure it's a controller card for a maynstream external tape drive (least the last one I saw was hooked up to a maynard tape drive) At 01:18 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: >I just recently purchased an old Toshiba T5200/100 Laptop at a thrift >store. One of the cards installed in it was an old 8-bit device of >some sort. > >First of all, here are pictures of the card in question. > >http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-0.JPG > >http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-1.JPG > >Can anyone here help me identify what this card is, and more >importantly, where I can download MS-DOS drivers for it? > >It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large socketed chip says: > >WD33C93A-PL >00-08 9031 >069660200102 >PROTO > >Other markings state: Type II Controller, and Rev. -5 > >The FCC ID number is D8I6I2 60201. > >Just taking a wild guess, I suspect that this is some sort of SCSI >Controller. However, I could not find it in the TH99 archives. The >only match for Maynard on Driverguide is for a 16-Bit SCSI driver from >Seagate. Also, I could not find any info on Seagate's site either. > >So, anyone here have any info on this card and possibly know where to >get drivers for it? From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 16 03:42:52 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c49b4b$70c9c3a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <4149520C.7020308@gjcp.net> John Lawson wrote: > I do understand perfectly that your's is an innocuous, semi-private > site, and making the info available to the Legacy Computing community is > quite laudable - but I'm pretty old-school when it comes to registering > for things, and I have cookies turned off permanently, only a very few > sites that I absolutely must visit (for business reasons) get to set a > goddamn 'cookie', and these get deleted immediately afterward. It's not > the thing itself, it's the (curmudgeonly) principle of it. I just can't understand the thinking behind that. Do you take all the back-up batteries out of your PCs, so you can set up the BIOS from scratch every time? Do you leave the unswitched 12v line disconnected on your car stereo so it resets all the stations to 88.1MHz when you turn the ignition off? Seriously, what's the big problem with cookies? Gordon. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Thu Sep 16 04:43:04 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Wanted (To Buy Or Trade) Laptop RAM and Laptop hard Drive Message-ID: <200409160243.04808.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> Anyone here got a spare laptop hard drive (2-4GB) and / or a pair of 16MB 72-Pin Laptop DIMMs they might be willing to sell or trade away? I have an old TI Extensa 450 that I've been tinkering with, set up with both Damn Small Linux and Doss 6.22/WfW 3.11. Since she is dual boot, drive space is getting pretty tight (540MB hard drive, with 150MB of that dedicated to DOS, 64MB for the Linux swap partition, and the rest a single Linux ext2 partition). I really need to get a larger hard drive. I tend to avoid shopping eBay for computer parts, primarily because most sellers for this stuff like to severely gouge on shipping. And, I have not been able to find what I need locally. As for the RAM, I definitely need a pair of 72-Pin 16MB laptop DIMMs, which would max out the system's memory. She currently only has 12MB, in the form of an 8MB and a 4MB DIMM. So, if anyone has any of these items available for a reasonable price, please send an email my way. I am also willing to do some trading instead. Currently, I have available for trade, a Databook PCMCIA card reader. It has 2 16 Bit card slots, fits in a 3.5" drive bay, and comes with its 16-Bit ISA controller card and controller cable. I know I can probably dig up other old computer bits to trade off as well. I can also trade a couple of Google GMail invites. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 04:47:53 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard In-Reply-To: <014201c49bb2$dc4ffc90$8097a6c3@acmewmis4a7fbx> References: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> <014201c49bb2$dc4ffc90$8097a6c3@acmewmis4a7fbx> Message-ID: <1095328073.18571.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 07:03 +0100, Ian West wrote: > I've got one of these, which does the job for me: > > http://www.romdex.co.uk/html/minikeyinf.html Whilst on the subject, is it possible to buy a new 'normal' keyboard these days without the Windows keys? Heck, I don't even have Windows on the main desktop machine any more, and on the occasions when I do have to use a PC with Windows installed I'm forever catching the left-hand Windows key when going for Alt... grr! (As an aside, someone showed me a prototype Acorn machine a few weeks back which had an 'http://' key on it - I gather it was patented too) Depending on what the original poster wants to do, there are gadgets such as this: http://www.x10.com/products/x10_mk19a.htm ... if you're homebrewing something that just needs a minimum of input (hence the small keyboard) then maybe that's an option. Of course what would be really nice would be a remote control that sends documented codes related to key position, and at order time you say what you want printed on each keytop. I'm not aware of anywhere offering that though... (My car-based mp3 jukebox project has been stalled for years until I can figure out a way of navigating thousands of audio files on the move without killing myself :-) cheers, Jules From m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com Thu Sep 16 05:32:25 2004 From: m.wickens at rhodium-consulting.com (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard In-Reply-To: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916002558.68151.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409161132.25979.m.wickens@rhodium-consulting.com> On Thursday 16 September 2004 1:25 am, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Just what the subject line says... I'm looking for the smallest possible > (working) PS/2-style keyboard that exists... all the junk at my local > CompUSA is either USB, or has function keys and trackballs and infrared, > etc.... I don't want any of that stuff. > > Can anyone help me? > > - Evan K. I have a happy hacker, which has the control key in the right place ;) http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/hardware/ They are made in the USA, so don't be put off the UK link if you are the other side of the pond. Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wickens Rhodium Consulting Ltd From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 16 06:52:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord In-Reply-To: <20040915193840.N88504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> > When you check this, also check to see that ur wall >>> > socket is wired correctly. You'd be surprised how many >>> > are not right. >>> > Dwight >>> >>> On an ungrounded (2 wire) outlet: 1/2 >>> On a grounded (3 wire) outlet, there are SIX possible wirings. >>> Grumpy Ol' Fred While the above numbers are correct, 3 wire outlets that actually have the hot lead connected to the ground pin are fairly rare reducing the the number of likely wiring combiniations to 4. Result (incorrectly assuming even distribution) 2-prong outlet: 50% chance of being wired correctly 3-prong outlet: 25% chance of being wired correctly From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 07:33:34 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916013433.039d20f0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <20040916123334.31423.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> I agree. I have similar cards made by 'mountain computer' for tape drivers, which use NCR 53C94. One good point of those cards is that you can talk to the SCSI chip directly thus they can be used as a developement card of those chips. I used mine to control real SCSI drives from within simh. vax, 3900 --- Geoff Reed wrote: > I haven't seen one of those in years... i'm pretty > sure it's a controller > card for a maynstream external tape drive (least the > last one I saw was > hooked up to a maynard tape drive) > > At 01:18 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: > >I just recently purchased an old Toshiba T5200/100 > Laptop at a thrift > >store. One of the cards installed in it was an old > 8-bit device of > >some sort. > > > >First of all, here are pictures of the card in > question. > > > >http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-0.JPG > > > >http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-1.JPG > > > >Can anyone here help me identify what this card is, > and more > >importantly, where I can download MS-DOS drivers > for it? > > > >It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large > socketed chip says: > > > >WD33C93A-PL > >00-08 9031 > >069660200102 > >PROTO > > > >Other markings state: Type II Controller, and Rev. > -5 > > > >The FCC ID number is D8I6I2 60201. > > > >Just taking a wild guess, I suspect that this is > some sort of SCSI > >Controller. However, I could not find it in the > TH99 archives. The > >only match for Maynard on Driverguide is for a > 16-Bit SCSI driver from > >Seagate. Also, I could not find any info on > Seagate's site either. > > > >So, anyone here have any info on this card and > possibly know where to > >get drivers for it? > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 09:19:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:11 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams Message-ID: No sooner had the discussion on the cashier's check scam ended than I received not one but two fraud attempts from these numbskulls in Nigeria. The latest is this one, which is stunning in its hilarity: Hello sales, I am highly interest in purchase the product in your store listed below Level 01: VCF Pin & T-shirt ............................1000pices then i will liKe you to calculate the total cost of the goods with handling via ups 3-5days express shipment so that i can send you my cheque account and ship to the above adress 11 oshifuye street off palmavenue road mushin olorunshogo lagos 23401 nigeria Looking forawrd to hear from you soonest Best Regard STEVE -- This guy wants to order 1000 donations to the VCF. He must be some overachiever in Fraud 101 trying to impress his instructor or something. Anyway, I'm already stringing along the first guy, but this is going to become a regular thing I don't have time for it. Any ideas? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 16 09:47:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the possibility that the name is Joseph Ibukun [of Smith Boa, or Lagbo Jop)... http://www.nigeriapolice.org/_policechart/00000032.htm >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:20 AM >>> To: Classic Computers Mailing List >>> Subject: Nigerian scams >>> >>> >>> No sooner had the discussion on the cashier's check scam >>> ended than I received not one but two fraud attempts from >>> these numbskulls in Nigeria. >>> >>> The latest is this one, which is stunning in its hilarity: >>> >>> Hello sales, >>> I am highly interest in purchase the product in your store >>> listed below >>> >>> Level 01: VCF Pin & T-shirt ............................1000pices >>> >>> then i will liKe you to calculate the total cost of the >>> goods with handling via ups 3-5days express shipment so >>> that i can send you my cheque account and ship to the above adress >>> 11 oshifuye street off >>> palmavenue road >>> mushin >>> olorunshogo >>> lagos 23401 >>> nigeria >>> Looking forawrd to hear from you soonest Best Regard STEVE >>> >>> -- >>> >>> This guy wants to order 1000 donations to the VCF. He must >>> be some overachiever in Fraud 101 trying to impress his >>> instructor or something. >>> >>> Anyway, I'm already stringing along the first guy, but this >>> is going to become a regular thing I don't have time for it. >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> >>> From tomhudson at execpc.com Thu Sep 16 10:27:19 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4149B0D7.1070802@execpc.com> Boy, I sure appreciate the Nigerian police putting complete names and email addresses of people reporing this stuff on their site. It's not like any scammers might be tempted to use that information for nefarious purposes or anything... -Tom David V. Corbin wrote: >On the possibility that the name is Joseph Ibukun [of Smith Boa, or Lagbo >Jop)... > >http://www.nigeriapolice.org/_policechart/00000032.htm > > > -- Thomas Hudson http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:17:25 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Atari Unix Message-ID: How about dd'ing it to a file, transferring it to another computer and pressing a CD? >From: luke >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctech@classiccmp.org >Subject: Atari Unix >Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:48:34 -0500 > >"For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a hard >disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. > >If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI hard >disk >for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who wrote >Atari >Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's >were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that the >image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or not. So >far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari Unix will >recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you can hook >the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if I can >get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >Atari's on an actual Atari computer. > >If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and you >pay >shipping to and from me. > > >Curt >" > >Hi > >my friend and i have been looking for this for a while... > >is there a way to create a ghost image that is downloadable? > >this way we can ghost it into our own drive ourselves? > >there are two tt's we are trying to get going... > >thanks for any info > >- luke > _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 16 11:14:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams In-Reply-To: <4149B0D7.1070802@execpc.com> Message-ID: >>> Boy, I sure appreciate the Nigerian police putting complete >>> names and email addresses of people reporing this stuff on >>> their site. It's not like any scammers might be tempted to >>> use that information for nefarious purposes or anything... >>> Complete agreement. This is why I have repeatedly suggested ignoring these types of scams. If you reply with any (valid) information, and it is seized on the other end, it can well be listed on sites such as this [do a google search on Joseph Ibukun to see HOW many sites there are!] From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 11:36:28 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Atari Unix References: Message-ID: <4149C10C.6000400@cableone.net> I am trying to resurect some ancient HP laserjets. Two Laserjet II's and one Laserjet 4v. Prior to failure they were all three running fine and giving nice output. Then each just stoped and began to give the same error message, "50 Service". Just what does this mean? Is it a counter that has to be reset or is there really something wrong with them. If the latter I am going to pull the ink cartridges and set them out by the curb. If the former, can someone shed some light on the correct procedure to get them going again. Jason McBrien wrote: > How about dd'ing it to a file, transferring it to another computer and > pressing a CD? > > >> From: luke >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> To: cctech@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Atari Unix >> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:48:34 -0500 >> >> "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >> hard >> disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >> diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >> recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. >> >> If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI >> hard disk >> for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who >> wrote Atari >> Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >> issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's >> were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that >> the >> image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or >> not. So >> far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari >> Unix will >> recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you >> can hook >> the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if >> I can >> get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >> Atari's on an actual Atari computer. >> >> If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and >> you pay >> shipping to and from me. >> >> >> Curt >> " >> >> Hi >> >> my friend and i have been looking for this for a while... >> >> is there a way to create a ghost image that is downloadable? >> >> this way we can ghost it into our own drive ourselves? >> >> there are two tt's we are trying to get going... >> >> thanks for any info >> >> - luke >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the > Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx > > From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Sep 16 11:39:17 2004 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? Message-ID: I have a PDP-11/23 with an H9270 backplane and am thinking of upgrading to a J11 processor. I would like to use the KDJ11-B quad size board (M8190-YB). Is that going to require me to use a different backplane? If so, is there one that will fit in the same space as the H9270 and use the same power supply? From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 11:39:31 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149C10C.6000400@cableone.net> Message-ID: <4149C1C3.9090806@cableone.net> OOps, I forgot to change the subject line on that last post.ead of " Atari Unix " it should have been HP Printers. So here it is again under the proper subject. I was in too much of a hurry and used an old message to modify but failed to modify it completely. Jim Isbell wrote: > I am trying to resurect some ancient HP laserjets. Two Laserjet II's > and one Laserjet 4v. Prior to failure they were all three running > fine and giving nice output. Then each just stoped and began to give > the same error message, "50 Service". Just what does this mean? Is > it a counter that has to be reset or is there really something wrong > with them. If the latter I am going to pull the ink cartridges and > set them out by the curb. If the former, can someone shed some light > on the correct procedure to get them going again. > From dan at ekoan.com Thu Sep 16 11:45:25 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Any Honeywell fans? Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040916123820.059e9960@mail.marcal.com> At a recent hamfest I picked up two sets of what appears to be Honeywell training material. Each set consists of a slide projector tray, cassette tapes, and a manual all in a fold-open case. The first set is labeled "Digital Computers and Software" and is dated 1979. It has 80 slides in the tray and comes with two cassette tapes and a booklet. The second set is labeled "Delta 1000 Control Interpreter Language" and is dated 1980. There are 46 slides in the tray and there is one cassette tape, along with a booklet. All of this stuff is marked "Honeywell Proprietary." I'm generally much more interested in HP stuff, but this looked unusual enough to pick up. Contact me off-list if you'd like more information. Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From dan at ekoan.com Thu Sep 16 11:55:31 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: DEC Consultant's Reference Guide Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040916125109.059f6ad0@mail.marcal.com> At a recent hamfest I picked up two volumes of Digital Equipment Corporation's Consultant's Reference Guide. I now have Volumes 1 and 2 ("Organization and Policies" and "Products and Services"), however the index indicates that there are several more volumes. Does anyone have a full set of these? By the way, Volume 1 has a section with DEC's history, "DEC Nineteen Fifty-Seven to the Present" which runs 88 pages and covers up through 1977. Interesting reading and some nice photos. Cheers, Dan From KVanMersbergen at RandMcNally.com Thu Sep 16 12:03:48 2004 From: KVanMersbergen at RandMcNally.com (Van Mersbergen, Ken) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Atari Unix Message-ID: According to the HP Service Guide a 50 message is: 50 Error/Service (Fuser Malfunction) 1. Temporary Error Power off for 20 minutes to clear temporary 50 error 2. Low/unstable power (brownout) Locate/verify stable power source I hope that can help you -Ken V. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:36 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Atari Unix I am trying to resurect some ancient HP laserjets. Two Laserjet II's and one Laserjet 4v. Prior to failure they were all three running fine and giving nice output. Then each just stoped and began to give the same error message, "50 Service". Just what does this mean? Is it a counter that has to be reset or is there really something wrong with them. If the latter I am going to pull the ink cartridges and set them out by the curb. If the former, can someone shed some light on the correct procedure to get them going again. Jason McBrien wrote: > How about dd'ing it to a file, transferring it to another computer and > pressing a CD? > > >> From: luke >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> To: cctech@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Atari Unix >> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:48:34 -0500 >> >> "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >> hard >> disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >> diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >> recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. >> >> If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI >> hard disk >> for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who >> wrote Atari >> Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >> issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's >> were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that >> the >> image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or >> not. So >> far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari >> Unix will >> recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you >> can hook >> the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if >> I can >> get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >> Atari's on an actual Atari computer. >> >> If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and >> you pay >> shipping to and from me. >> >> >> Curt >> " >> >> Hi >> >> my friend and i have been looking for this for a while... >> >> is there a way to create a ghost image that is downloadable? >> >> this way we can ghost it into our own drive ourselves? >> >> there are two tt's we are trying to get going... >> >> thanks for any info >> >> - luke >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the > Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 12:17:35 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question Message-ID: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 12:25:17 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory Ron> that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or Ron> the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? LOGIN.COM. Also, if there is a LOGIN.COM in [x,0] and the user is [x,y] for nonzero y, then [x,0]LOGIN.COM is executed before the user's LOGIN.COM paul From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 16 12:38:37 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0400 9/16/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory > Ron> that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or > Ron> the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? > >LOGIN.COM. Also, if there is a LOGIN.COM in [x,0] and the user is >[x,y] for nonzero y, then [x,0]LOGIN.COM is executed before the user's >LOGIN.COM Careful: what version of RSTS are you referring to? This is not available in all versions AFAIR. John From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 16 12:46:23 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <4149C1C3.9090806@cableone.net> References: <4149C10C.6000400@cableone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040916133450.04bd5068@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Isbell may have mentioned these words: >OOps, I forgot to change the subject line on that last post.ead of " Atari >Unix " it should have been HP Printers. So here it is again under the >proper subject. I was in too much of a hurry and used an old message to >modify but failed to modify it completely. I'm not trying to sound like a list-nazi or anything, but you really shouldn't do that. It totally whacks out 1) any email programs that show messages in a threaded manner, and 2) the list archives. Your "new, but not really" message will still show up as a thread sub-message under the old heading, and makes the archives harder to follow. On more militant lists, this behavio[u]r can (and has) gotten people desubbed... This isn't just a "top-post vs. bottom-post vs. middle-post" debate - it really is a generally bad thing to do, and the "click reply, wipe everything" doesn't really save much time at all, and is much more prone to oopses. Just my $0.0000000000000000000000002 (as that's what it's worth...), Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. Yes, I was also threatened once to get desubbed because a few of my randomized .sigs are 5 lines instead of 4. They didn't *care* that one line was blank, and shouldn't count... :-/ The list charter said "a .sig *should* be no more than 4 lines" and they were taking it as gospel... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 12:53:34 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149C10C.6000400@cableone.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040916133450.04bd5068@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4149D31E.9000709@cableone.net> Well, the reason I joined this list not the "more strict" version was that I thought such simple errors would not be commented on. When You are as old as I am it is impossible not to make errors because DNA does not reproduce faithfully. Its like making a Xerox of a Xerox, of a Xerox....etc. This slow degradation leads to slow degradation of the individual and this leads to degradation of the product from that individual. I am flawed and there is no cure. Until it is possible to easily do otherwise, I will continue my current practice...BUT....I will be more careful in the future to make sure I corrected the address line.....#8-) Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jim Isbell may have mentioned these words: > >> OOps, I forgot to change the subject line on that last post.ead of " >> Atari Unix " it should have been HP Printers. So here it is again >> under the proper subject. I was in too much of a hurry and used an >> old message to modify but failed to modify it completely. > > > I'm not trying to sound like a list-nazi or anything, but you really > shouldn't do that. It totally whacks out 1) any email programs that > show messages in a threaded manner, and 2) the list archives. Your > "new, but not really" message will still show up as a thread > sub-message under the old heading, and makes the archives harder to > follow. > > On more militant lists, this behavio[u]r can (and has) gotten people > desubbed... This isn't just a "top-post vs. bottom-post vs. > middle-post" debate - it really is a generally bad thing to do, and > the "click reply, wipe everything" doesn't really save much time at > all, and is much more prone to oopses. > > Just my $0.0000000000000000000000002 (as that's what it's worth...), > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > P.S. Yes, I was also threatened once to get desubbed because a few of > my randomized .sigs are 5 lines instead of 4. They didn't *care* that > one line was blank, and shouldn't count... :-/ The list charter said > "a .sig *should* be no more than 4 lines" and they were taking it as > gospel... > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch@30below.com > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > > From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 12:56:35 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: Message-ID: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its time to chuck 'em. Van Mersbergen, Ken wrote: >According to the HP Service Guide a 50 message is: > >50 Error/Service (Fuser Malfunction) > >1. Temporary Error >Power off for 20 minutes to clear temporary 50 error > >2. Low/unstable power (brownout) >Locate/verify stable power source > >I hope that can help you > >-Ken V. > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] >Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:36 AM >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Atari Unix > > >I am trying to resurect some ancient HP laserjets. Two Laserjet II's >and one Laserjet 4v. Prior to failure they were all three running fine >and giving nice output. Then each just stoped and began to give the same >error message, "50 Service". Just what does this mean? Is it a >counter that has to be reset or is there really something wrong with >them. If the latter I am going to pull the ink cartridges and set them >out by the curb. If the former, can someone shed some light on the >correct procedure to get them going again. > >Jason McBrien wrote: > > > >>How about dd'ing it to a file, transferring it to another computer and >>pressing a CD? >> >> >> >> >>>From: luke >>>Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >>>Posts" >>>To: cctech@classiccmp.org >>>Subject: Atari Unix >>>Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:48:34 -0500 >>> >>>"For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a >>>hard >>>disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a >>>diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to >>>recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. >>> >>>If anyone is interested, I can make ghost images of the 300MB SCSI >>>hard disk >>>for you. One word of caution, according the Atari engineer who >>>wrote Atari >>>Unix, it does not work on all TT030's. Some of the units had bugs and >>>issues, most came back into Atari's service center where the -33 68030's >>>were replaced with slower 16mhz CPU's, so while I will guarantee that >>>the >>>image works, I cannot guarantee if your TT will have a problem or >>>not. So >>>far I've tried it out with 3 TT's and they all work. Also Atari >>>Unix will >>>recognize Riebl VME ethernet cards and set them as /dev/en0 so you >>>can hook >>>the TT up to the internet directly. I personally am going to see if >>>I can >>>get Apache to work on the TT as it would be great to run a website for >>>Atari's on an actual Atari computer. >>> >>>If you want a copy, I need a 300mb SCSI HD to Ghost the image to and >>>you pay >>>shipping to and from me. >>> >>> >>>Curt >>>" >>> >>>Hi >>> >>>my friend and i have been looking for this for a while... >>> >>>is there a way to create a ghost image that is downloadable? >>> >>>this way we can ghost it into our own drive ourselves? >>> >>>there are two tt's we are trying to get going... >>> >>>thanks for any info >>> >>>- luke >>> >>> >>> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the >>Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx >> >> >> >> > > > > > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 13:08:03 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5A79CF0A-080B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 16, 2004, at 10:38 AM, John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 1:25 PM -0400 9/16/04, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> >> Ron> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory >> Ron> that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or >> Ron> the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? >> >> LOGIN.COM. Also, if there is a LOGIN.COM in [x,0] and the user is >> [x,y] for nonzero y, then [x,0]LOGIN.COM is executed before the user's >> LOGIN.COM > > Careful: what version of RSTS are you referring to? This is not > available in all versions AFAIR. > > John > > Version 7.0-07 com is a strange extension I see .tac .bac .cmd .ctl I'll try it out.. Thanks. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Sep 16 13:11:35 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card References: <20040916123334.31423.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c001c49c18$9c35dba0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> I missed the first original post of this, but it's definately a SCSI control chip. iin fact I have one of these chips on a card somewhere. it is also used in amiga's etc for their scsi I/F,. I would assume that if you are using it under a windows OS, it should pick it up. I know it used to with mine. it's been a while since i've used it tho. regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHAUN RIPLEY" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card >I agree. I have similar cards made by 'mountain > computer' for tape drivers, which use NCR 53C94. One > good point of those cards is that you can talk to the > SCSI chip directly thus they can be used as a > developement card of those chips. I used mine to > control real SCSI drives from within simh. > > vax, 3900 > > > --- Geoff Reed wrote: > >> I haven't seen one of those in years... i'm pretty >> sure it's a controller >> card for a maynstream external tape drive (least the >> last one I saw was >> hooked up to a maynard tape drive) >> >> At 01:18 AM 9/16/2004, you wrote: >> >I just recently purchased an old Toshiba T5200/100 >> Laptop at a thrift >> >store. One of the cards installed in it was an old >> 8-bit device of >> >some sort. >> > >> >First of all, here are pictures of the card in >> question. >> > >> >>http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-0.JPG >> > >> >>http://webpages.charter.net/scarletdown/Geekworks/GW-Mystery-Card-1.JPG >> > >> >Can anyone here help me identify what this card is, >> and more >> >importantly, where I can download MS-DOS drivers >> for it? >> > >> >It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large >> socketed chip says: >> > >> >WD33C93A-PL >> >00-08 9031 >> >069660200102 >> >PROTO >> > >> >Other markings state: Type II Controller, and Rev. >> -5 >> > >> >The FCC ID number is D8I6I2 60201. >> > >> >Just taking a wild guess, I suspect that this is >> some sort of SCSI >> >Controller. However, I could not find it in the >> TH99 archives. The >> >only match for Maynard on Driverguide is for a >> 16-Bit SCSI driver from >> >Seagate. Also, I could not find any info on >> Seagate's site either. >> > >> >So, anyone here have any info on this card and >> possibly know where to >> >get drivers for it? >> >> > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.759 / Virus Database: 508 - Release Date: 12/09/2004 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 13:13:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: John> At 1:25 PM -0400 9/16/04, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> Ron> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory Ron> that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or Ron> the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? >> LOGIN.COM. Also, if there is a LOGIN.COM in [x,0] and the user is >> [x,y] for nonzero y, then [x,0]LOGIN.COM is executed before the >> user's LOGIN.COM John> Careful: what version of RSTS are you referring to? This is John> not available in all versions AFAIR. Correct. V9 and later, because V9 is when integrated support for command files appeared. Before V9, the answer is "none". paul From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 16 13:14:59 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040916140549.04f2c338@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Isbell may have mentioned these words: >Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power >supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its time >to chuck 'em. Have a multimeter? You might want to check the line voltage going in -- you might be suffering from low voltage. It happens frequently at my house... I'm just down the road from our 105-year-old hydro plant, and while after a century it's doing an admirable job, sometimes power's not quite up to par. (on the good side, tho: as I'm so close, my section of town is usually the first to get power resorted in the event of an outage.) Also: >Van Mersbergen, Ken wrote: > >>According to the HP Service Guide a 50 message is: >> >>50 Error/Service (Fuser Malfunction) >> >>1. Temporary Error >>Power off for 20 minutes to clear temporary 50 error Note, this says *minutes* - not seconds. Also, if they're on at the same time, on the same circuit, it's probably the circuit that's at fault, not the printers... You might want to see what else is on that circuit that might have a decent current draw, and the power company can't keep up... By the way - not sure how long you've been with the list, but if not, I'll give you a tip: Just because cctalk is unmoderated, doesn't mean it won't be commented on! Just the opposite -- *Everything* gets commented on here, the good, the bad, and *especially* the ugly. ;-) My previous post was but a friendly reminder... [[ If you'll note, I haven't changed my .sigs, either... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From wacarder at usit.net Thu Sep 16 13:23:40 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001801c49c1a$4ae37580$5a120f14@mcothran1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:13 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: > > John> At 1:25 PM -0400 9/16/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > >> > Ron> I remember a file that can be put in the user's login directory > Ron> that is run as a part of the login, like LOGIN.COM in a vax or > Ron> the .profile under unix. What is the name of the file? > >> LOGIN.COM. Also, if there is a LOGIN.COM in [x,0] and the user is > >> [x,y] for nonzero y, then [x,0]LOGIN.COM is executed before the > >> user's LOGIN.COM > > John> Careful: what version of RSTS are you referring to? This is > John> not available in all versions AFAIR. > > Correct. V9 and later, because V9 is when integrated support for > command files appeared. > > Before V9, the answer is "none". Yep, I know that I had never heard of that. Of course, my RSTS/E knowledge stops around 1980. Ashley > paul > From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Thu Sep 16 13:26:00 2004 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409161415859.SM02392@bobdev> > Correct. V9 and later, because V9 is when integrated support for command files appeared. It would be possible to modify and recompiel LOGIN.BAS to add this feature in V7. Our installation had this done, so that if you had a file "HELLO.BAS" or "HELLO.BAC" it would run it. - Bob From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 13:34:45 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 16, 2004, at 11:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Correct. V9 and later, because V9 is when integrated support for > command files appeared. > > Before V9, the answer is "none". > > paul > > Well, it's V7.. What I wanted to do is setup terminals. I probably should do that in tty.cmd huh. The thing is that I don't know how many KBn: I have and in TTY.CMD you have to put: FORCE KB0: KB1: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT FORCE KB0: KB2: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of KBn: s I can have? From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 13:43:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409161415859.SM02392@bobdev> Message-ID: <16713.57013.105674.930050@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Lafleur writes: >> Correct. V9 and later, because V9 is when integrated support for >> command Bob> files appeared. Bob> It would be possible to modify and recompiel LOGIN.BAS to add Bob> this feature in V7. Our installation had this done, so that if Bob> you had a file "HELLO.BAS" or "HELLO.BAC" it would run it. Sure. Or chain to atpk if a login.cmd file exists. Or any number of tricks like that. All of that would be local customization. And the various command file hacks were just that -- hacks, not particularly elegant, useful, or reliable, until the whole job was put into the kernel and DCL which happened in V9.0. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 13:46:10 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Well, it's V7.. What I wanted to do is setup terminals. I Ron> probably should do that in tty.cmd huh. The thing is that I Ron> don't know how many KBn: I have and in TTY.CMD you have to put: Ron> FORCE KB0: KB1: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT FORCE KB0: KB2: ;SCOPE ;LC Ron> INPUT Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of Ron> KBn: s I can have? It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have to have at least 3 DZs... paul From mcesari at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 13:52:10 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83ED48B3-0811-11D9-B528-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Sep 16, 2004, at 10:39 AM, David Betz wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23 with an H9270 backplane and am thinking of > upgrading to a J11 processor. I would like to use the KDJ11-B quad > size board (M8190-YB). Is that going to require me to use a different > backplane? If so, is there one that will fit in the same space as the > H9270 and use the same power supply? > With that particular processor board you need either an H9278-A or an H9276. A BA123 works, too (I don't remember that backplane number). Mike From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Sep 16 13:52:57 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> (Jim Isbell's message of "Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:56:35 -0500") References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> Message-ID: <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jim Isbell wrote: > Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power > supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its > time to chuck 'em. For the LaserJet Series II, "50 SERVICE" is likely to be the power supply. It's less likely to be the fusing station. The power supply would be about $30-$70 for a replacement part, which is not that hard to replace yourself if you can work a screwdriver. Webby URLs to check for more information include and . For my money, replacing the power supply and keeping a 15-year-old HP printer gives me more warm fuzzies than buying inkjet cartridges from today's HP. And I like the control panel on the LaserJet II a lot better than what passes for one on the LaserJet 2100 at the office; for example, I can tell whether the LaserJet II is online and whether it has something in its buffer. Could you please trim excessive quoted text in your e-mail replies? -Frank McConnell From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Sep 16 14:03:45 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams Message-ID: <9e.14d192e3.2e7b3d91@aol.com> This is a new variation of a scam. I have gotten two on my posting of my HP 110 outfit on the HP Museum classified ads that I mentioned earlier. Both wanted me to name a price, they did not care what it was. One wanted to send me a certified check for over the amount with me rebating them the overage. This is the letter I mentioned on the list. The other wanted to buy anything else I had and would pay me with a credit card. All they were going to provide was the credit card number and the expriation date. There was a strong implication they would pay an inflated price. It was an open invitation to Fraud and I reported it to Yahoo where the offer came from. It was interesting that they would make arrangements for the equipment to be picked up. A news story on the local TV told a story of a T Shirt company that got an offer similar to purchase the 9000 T shirts and paid with two credit cards. One went through but the other bounced and the owner of the business found out it was fraud before he shipped it, overseas. However. The people that ordered, when they did not get their T-Shirts, threatened violence against the owner if he did not ship, several times. I think it best not to respond to such offers, and report them to their apparent (but usually not real) source. I think it is important to report all Fraud to the internet providors. Paxton Astoria PS I was concerned that I got two fraud offers directly related to my posting of the HP110 on the HP Museum Classified ads. It shows that thre are many people out there trolling collectable computer and calculator sales with the intent to defraud. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 14:05:14 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4149E3EA.1040106@cableone.net> Thanks, that is just what I was suspecting. But since I get my printers from the thrift shop for $5-$10 its hardly worth replacing a power supply. I will just wait until the next one comes along. And, I think I have at least three more down in the basement so I will try a few more. Maybe swap a power supply from one that has some other problem. If they all give 50 SERVICE error then I will just save the ink and wait until another one pops up at the thrift shop. At $5- $10 each, they are always worth that to get the half full ink cartridge out of them. Frank McConnell wrote: >Jim Isbell wrote: > > >>Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power >>supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its >>time to chuck 'em. >> >> > >For the LaserJet Series II, "50 SERVICE" is likely to be the power >supply. It's less likely to be the fusing station. The power supply >would be about $30-$70 for a replacement part, which is not that hard >to replace yourself if you can work a screwdriver. Webby URLs to >check for more information include >and . > >For my money, replacing the power supply and keeping a 15-year-old HP >printer gives me more warm fuzzies than buying inkjet cartridges from >today's HP. And I like the control panel on the LaserJet II a lot >better than what passes for one on the LaserJet 2100 at the office; >for example, I can tell whether the LaserJet II is online and whether >it has something in its buffer. > >Could you please trim excessive quoted text in your e-mail replies? > >-Frank McConnell > > > From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Sep 16 14:20:14 2004 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: <83ED48B3-0811-11D9-B528-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <83ED48B3-0811-11D9-B528-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6FD96F32-0815-11D9-A908-000D9335D6E2@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks for your response. Both of the backplanes you mention seem to be 8 slot backpanes. The box I have only looks like it has space for a 4 slot backplane like the H9270. Is there a four slot backplane with a Q22/CD slot? On Sep 16, 2004, at 2:52 PM, Mike Cesari wrote: > > On Sep 16, 2004, at 10:39 AM, David Betz wrote: > >> I have a PDP-11/23 with an H9270 backplane and am thinking of >> upgrading to a J11 processor. I would like to use the KDJ11-B quad >> size board (M8190-YB). Is that going to require me to use a different >> backplane? If so, is there one that will fit in the same space as the >> H9270 and use the same power supply? >> > > With that particular processor board you need either an H9278-A or an > H9276. A BA123 works, too (I don't remember that > backplane number). > > > Mike > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 16 14:24:37 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm - John From emu at ecubics.com Thu Sep 16 14:41:57 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> Message-ID: <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> John Foust wrote: > http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm "Some in the UCSD crowd remain convinced that their software was technologically superior to Bill Gates's MS-DOS, and still mourn that outcome." so, please put it open source ... From wacarder at usit.net Thu Sep 16 14:55:23 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL><14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002e01c49c27$1ae15890$5a120f14@mcothran1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Well, it's V7.. What I wanted to do is setup terminals. I > Ron> probably should do that in tty.cmd huh. The thing is that I > Ron> don't know how many KBn: I have and in TTY.CMD you have to put: > > Ron> FORCE KB0: KB1: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT FORCE KB0: KB2: ;SCOPE ;LC > Ron> INPUT > > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of > Ron> KBn: s I can have? > > It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a > Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. > > If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have > to have at least 3 DZs... > > paul Ron, On my system, which you have been using, I addressed all these issues at SYSGEN time. I decided how many terminals I wanted to have, not counting the console, which isn't attached to the DZ11 multiplexer. I configured for (I think) two DZ11s, so I can have 16 KBs plus the console (KB0:). I also set up two pseudo keyboards (PK1:, PK2:), since I used to play with writing programs for those back in the 1970s. Pseudo-keyboards can run things without being attached to a physical terminal on a DZ11 port. Kind of like running a detached job, but not really. The telnet sessions are tied directly to the DZ11 connections. In the simulator, each new telnet session takes the next available DZ11 KB number. Once you've configured your system and it's SYSGENed, you can go into the TTY.CMD file to define the terminal characteristics for each "terminal". I think on my simh internet telnet version, I had to set them up with the RING parameter so it would behave like a dial up connection did back in the old days (1970s). When I moved my simulated system's disk image to my real PDP-11 system with REAL DZ11s, I removed the RING parameter and configured the TTY.CMD file to match the physical devices that were wired with a serial cable or 20mA current loop connection to the DZ11. If KB3: was an ASR-33, I'd have to set the baud rate, etc. in the TTY.CMD to be correct for my teletype. Same for the VT52 and LA36 terminals. I didn't worry about this in the simh version because they could all be configured to be VT100s or VT52s, as long as the telnet users were using VT100 or VT52 emulation. Does this all make sense? Ashley From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 16 14:43:50 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916144322.050b01e8@pc> At 04:00 PM 9/15/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >I do not consider myself a magnetic-media expert, but I've made a number >of (low-density) controllers and en/de-coding schemes, and repaired >others, and read a lot (in one ear out the other probably). >I figure there are a few failure modes that would be easy for amateurs >(like me) to recover, like low-gain, dissipated magnetics (grain >randomization, etc), and such, that would be amenable to software >repair. With platters, there are clean-room issues as well as very difficult alignnment issues - imagine how difficult it would be to re-align a read head with the concentric bands on a platter that may have been slightly misaligned from its original hub, especially at contemporary densities. Floppies are a different matter. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 16 14:52:15 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916144130.055d75a8@pc> At 04:00 PM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >I do not consider myself a magnetic-media expert, but I've made a number >of (low-density) controllers and en/de-coding schemes, and repaired >others, and read a lot (in one ear out the other probably). With platters, there are clean-room issues as well as very difficult alignnment issues - imagine how difficult it would be to re-align a read head with the concentric bands on a platter that may have been slightly misaligned from its original hub. - John From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 16 14:59:18 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: At 2:46 PM -0400 9/16/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Well, it's V7.. What I wanted to do is setup terminals. I > Ron> probably should do that in tty.cmd huh. The thing is that I > Ron> don't know how many KBn: I have and in TTY.CMD you have to put: > > Ron> FORCE KB0: KB1: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT FORCE KB0: KB2: ;SCOPE ;LC > Ron> INPUT > > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of > Ron> KBn: s I can have? If you SYSGEN'd the system yourself, you know what the maximum _can_ be. It won't hurt to put force commands in for more KBs than actually exist. >It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a >Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. > >If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have >to have at least 3 DZs... > > paul This is certainly true for a Unibus -11 or an emulation of one. For completeness, in V7 Qbus support was not official yet (IIRC). However that doesn't prevent V7 from running on Qbus processors such as the 11/73. In which case a DZV or DZQ has only 4 lines/board, but otherwise looks/acts very much like a DZ. [A DHV or DHQ has 8 lines/board.] John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 16 15:00:10 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: PET: Info on MicroTech PETDISK II and Madison Z-RAM In-Reply-To: <20040914204422.YQZU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040914204422.YQZU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916145851.037bcbf8@pc> At 03:44 PM 9/14/2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: >2) Madison Computer Z-RAM > This one I have full docs for - it's a Z-80 / expansion RAM board which > fits under the monitor and connects to the PET via the 6502 socket (the > 6502 moves to the Z-RAM board). Hmm, that brings back memories, but I'm not sure if they're true or false. However, the Madison Computer (Works) that I'm thinking of used to sell PETs, and they're still around: http://www.madisoncomputerworks.com/ - John From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 15:01:42 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of > Ron> KBn: s I can have? > > It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a > Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. > > If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have > to have at least 3 DZs... > > paul > > Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached to 232, 8b, 0 connections Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) From wacarder at usit.net Thu Sep 16 15:13:32 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL><14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000e01c49c29$a426e0a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > > > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected > > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet > > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one > > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of > > Ron> KBn: s I can have? > > > > It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a > > Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. > > > > If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have > > to have at least 3 DZs... > > > > paul > > > > > Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz > > DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached to > 232, 8b, 0 connections > > Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) The console is KB0: and it does not use a DZ11 line. I believe that any configured pseudo keyboards would use the next numbers in the series PK1:, PK2:, for example. Then the actualy DZ11 KBs would start with the next number in the series, for example KB3:, KB4:, etc Ashley From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 15:13:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040916144130.055d75a8@pc> Message-ID: <16713.62452.676088.16073@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 04:00 PM 9/15/2004, you wrote: >> I do not consider myself a magnetic-media expert, but I've made a >> number of (low-density) controllers and en/de-coding schemes, and >> repaired others, and read a lot (in one ear out the other >> probably). John> With platters, there are clean-room issues as well as very John> difficult alignnment issues - imagine how difficult it would be John> to re-align a read head with the concentric bands on a platter John> that may have been slightly misaligned from its original hub. True for moving head disks, but possibly not for head per track devices. For example, head alignment of a DEC RF11 (512 kbytes per platter) was done by eyeball, lining up the heads with engraved circles on a glass or plexiglass alignment platter. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 15:19:10 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16713.62782.252196.99091@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of Ron> KBn: s I can have? >> It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to >> a Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. >> >> If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd >> have to have at least 3 DZs... >> >> paul >> >> Ron> Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz Ron> DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, Ron> attached to 232, 8b, 0 connections Ron> Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) If you told RSTS you wanted it to support four DZs, yes. Remember that (until RSTS 9.6) you had to tell SYSGEN how many of what type of terminal interface to support when doing a system generation (assembly and link of the terminal driver). You could ask for more than is actually there, in which case the rest is disabled at startup. If you ask for less than is there, only what you told to SYSGEN will be visible. The simulator's display is warped. It's confusingly reporting that there are four DZ interfaces, since each has 8 lines, two vectors, and four CSRs. So the CSR display is reporting the address range used for all four sets of CSRs. And the vector display is flat wrong, the correct list would be 300-337 (four sets of 2 2-word vectors). paul From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Sep 16 15:19:33 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:12 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 1:01 PM -0700 9/16/04, Ron Hudson wrote: >> Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected >> Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet >> Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one >> Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of >> Ron> KBn: s I can have? >> >>It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a >>Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. >> >>If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have >>to have at least 3 DZs... >> >> paul >> >Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz From a private conversation with Bob, I know he is not entirely thrilled with how serial interfaces are implemented within SIMH. I wrote the VH [DHV/DHQ] driver for SIMH. Look for major overhauls in both of these in future versions. > >DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached >to 232, 8b, 0 connections Not a very helpful display. But it means that the simulated _hardware_ is configured for 4 DZs. It does not indicate what RSTS is 'GEN'd for. Note that the VH display isn't much better: sim> sho vh VH, address=17760500-17760577*, vector=340-344, lines=32, 4 units VH0, not attached, DHV mode VH1, not attached, DHV mode VH2, not attached, DHV mode VH3, not attached, DHV mode sim> But at least it does indicate that there are 4 DHV/DHQs. >Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) Yes. John From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 15:23:34 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <000e01c49c29$a426e0a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <16713.63046.988479.4127@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" Ashley> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Ashley> and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, Ashley> September 16, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question >> > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys >> connected > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have >> Telnet > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I >> suppose one > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit >> the number of > Ron> KBn: s I can have? >> > >> > It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied >> to a > Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 >> ports. >> > >> > If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd >> have > to have at least 3 DZs... >> > >> > paul >> > >> > >> Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz >> >> DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached >> to 232, 8b, 0 connections >> >> Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) Ashley> The console is KB0: and it does not use a DZ11 line. I Ashley> believe that any configured pseudo keyboards would use the Ashley> next numbers in the series PK1:, PK2:, for example. ... The order is: KL/DL11-A; DL11-C/D; DL11-E; PK; DJ11; DH11; DZ11. Note that PKn: is the controlling end of a pseudo keyboard. If you asked for two, then the controlling end is PK0 and PK1, which control respectively KB1 and KB2 (assuming your only single-line interface is the console). Writing to PK0 is "typing" on KB1. By the way, Linux has the same concept -- "pty". The "master pty" is the PKn:, the "slave pty" is the matching KBm:. The standard use for PKs is batch jobs and network terminal sessions. paul From wacarder at usit.net Thu Sep 16 15:33:39 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL><14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL><3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><000e01c49c29$a426e0a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> <16713.63046.988479.4127@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002501c49c2c$738a8b10$5a120f14@mcothran1> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:23 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: > > Ashley> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" > Ashley> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic > Ashley> and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, > Ashley> September 16, 2004 4:01 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > > > >> > Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys > >> connected > Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have > >> Telnet > Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I > >> suppose one > Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit > >> the number of > Ron> KBn: s I can have? > >> > > >> > It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied > >> to a > Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 > >> ports. > >> > > >> > If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd > >> have > to have at least 3 DZs... > >> > > >> > paul > >> > > >> > > >> Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz > >> > >> DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached > >> to 232, 8b, 0 connections > >> > >> Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) > > Ashley> The console is KB0: and it does not use a DZ11 line. I > Ashley> believe that any configured pseudo keyboards would use the > Ashley> next numbers in the series PK1:, PK2:, for example. ... > > The order is: KL/DL11-A; DL11-C/D; DL11-E; PK; DJ11; DH11; DZ11. > > Note that PKn: is the controlling end of a pseudo keyboard. If you > asked for two, then the controlling end is PK0 and PK1, which control > respectively KB1 and KB2 (assuming your only single-line interface is > the console). Writing to PK0 is "typing" on KB1. > > By the way, Linux has the same concept -- "pty". The "master pty" is > the PKn:, the "slave pty" is the matching KBm:. > > The standard use for PKs is batch jobs and network terminal sessions. > > paul Thanks for the lesson, Paul. It's nice to have someone here on the list who knows this stuff from the inside, rather than an old hacker like me, who dabbled with it 27 years ago from the outside, trying to find out what was going on on the inside. We didn't really use PKs at our implementation in the late 1970s, but there were two PKs configured in the system, and several of us wrote programs to use them to do long running tasks like calculate long lists of prime numbers and such. Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 16 15:56:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams Message-ID: <200409162056.NAA29380@clulw009.amd.com> >From: Innfogra@aol.com > >I think it is important to report all Fraud to the internet providors. Hi I get maybe 4 to 6 of these offers a week. It'd take a while to track down the real provider and send them the info. > >Paxton >Astoria > >PS I was concerned that I got two fraud offers directly related to my posting >of the HP110 on the HP Museum Classified ads. It shows that thre are many >people out there trolling collectable computer and calculator sales with the >intent to defraud. > They track any place that sells things, any place. There is nothing special about your adds compare to anyone else's. They are just looking for fresh territory. Hoping that that particular group is not yet wise to the scams. The smaller the market group the better their chances. Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 16 15:57:42 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <00c601c49c2f$d00d3920$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:52 PM Subject: Re: HP Printers > Jim Isbell wrote: > > Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power > > supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its > > time to chuck 'em. > > For the LaserJet Series II, "50 SERVICE" is likely to be the power > supply. It's less likely to be the fusing station. The power supply > would be about $30-$70 for a replacement part, which is not that hard > to replace yourself if you can work a screwdriver. Webby URLs to > check for more information include > and . > > For my money, replacing the power supply and keeping a 15-year-old HP > printer gives me more warm fuzzies than buying inkjet cartridges from > today's HP. And I like the control panel on the LaserJet II a lot > better than what passes for one on the LaserJet 2100 at the office; > for example, I can tell whether the LaserJet II is online and whether > it has something in its buffer. > > Could you please trim excessive quoted text in your e-mail replies? > > -Frank McConnell > I don't know if this helps but years ago my Epson Actionlaser 1500 gave me a service request E0xxx message on boot that would not clear. At the time I didn't want to toss the printer because it had a nice printout when working and was upgraded to 5mb of ram so I just set it aside and purchased a NEC Superscript 870. A few months later I took it apart to see what was up. The only thing I found to be out of the ordinary was the resistance on the fuser bulb, so I took the bulb out and found that the bulb was fine. The ends were copper and oxidized a bit over the years at the connectors so I cleaned them off with a dremel tool and a polishing head and put it back together worked good as new. So if you have a multimeter find out what the resistance of the bulb should be from the wattage & voltage spec (ohms law) and see if the bulb is burned out or just needs the ends cleaned for better contact (is the room humid maybe?). Hope this helps From mike-cc at msdsite.com Thu Sep 16 16:09:09 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Panasonic RL H-1400 - Snap Programs In-Reply-To: <200408292112.OAA17106@floodgap.com> References: <4131C38A.3795.FC436C@localhost> from Mike Davis at "Aug 29, 4 11:52:42 am" Message-ID: <41499E85.26379.10A7BDF@localhost> Ok, let's try this. Does anyone have any information on how SNAP programs are written on a PC and downloaded to a Panasonic H1400? Are they just text files? Does it require a development system? Anyone know where syntax info is available, if BASIC-like or text files? I can find nothing on the internet about SNAP applications for the Panasonic H1400. Thanks, From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 16 16:31:30 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: <6FD96F32-0815-11D9-A908-000D9335D6E2@xlisper.mv.com> References: <83ED48B3-0811-11D9-B528-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <6FD96F32-0815-11D9-A908-000D9335D6E2@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <200409161631.30608.pat@computer-refuge.org> David Betz declared on Thursday 16 September 2004 02:20 pm: > Thanks for your response. Both of the backplanes you mention seem to > be 8 slot backpanes. The box I have only looks like it has space for a > 4 slot backplane like the H9270. Is there a four slot backplane with a > Q22/CD slot? Assuming you don't want to use PMI memory with the KDJ11, you could probably just remove (unsolder) the right half of the CPU slot, and solder some bus grant jumper wires on the back. You can determine what lines need to be jumpered from an M9047, and it shouldn't take too much work with a dremel tool and soldering iron to remove the right half (two connectors) of the CPU slot. This is, of course, assuming you're comforatable doing that. If not, you can either get something with a 4x8/4x9 Q22/CD backplane, or perhaps a 2x4 backplane (H9281-BA/QA). The H9281-BA will need you to connect A18-A21 (top 4 address lines) through to each slot, as it's only Q18. The H9281-QA should work unmodified. However, I think it'll be hard to find any useful backplane, you'll probably either want to try to get something like a BA23, or modify the backplane you have. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Thu Sep 16 16:37:15 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040903195237.05bc90d8@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20040905113016.04ad2680@pc> Message-ID: <200409161437.16116.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> On Tuesday 07 September 2004 11:59, John Foust wrote: > I appreciate all the offers to host these files. > > I was surprised that there were no suggestions about how to > augment these files via OCR or PDF conversion. OpenOffice can easily export to PDF From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 16 16:51:41 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] ExecPC BBS.. In-Reply-To: <200409161437.16116.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have Curt Shambeau's contact information? The BBS seems to be broken at the moment. tnx. g. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 17:28:28 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <00c601c49c2f$d00d3920$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <414A138C.7050600@cableone.net> Sounds worth a look. I have now tested 4 of the 5 Laserjet IIs I had and three give the 50 report, one works and one is buried under so much junk I cant yet get to it. The LJ-3 is just plain dead and the LJ-4 also has the 50 error. But now that I have one running the 5 bad units are going out to the curb on saturday (after I check the fuser bulb idea you suggested). One day I will check out that last LJ-2....when this one goes out. I kind of hope the bulbs are NOT the problem, I need the space in the garage....#8-) Teo Zenios wrote: >off with a dremel tool and a polishing head and put it back together worked >good as new. So if you have a multimeter find out what the resistance of the >bulb should be from the wattage & voltage spec (ohms law) and see if the >bulb is burned out or just needs the ends cleaned for better contact (is the >room humid maybe?). > >Hope this helps > > > > > > > > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 17:49:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: A different RSTS/E Question Message-ID: AARRGG I am logged in as 1,2 I try TECO TTY.CMD I edit it and then try to save it *EX$$ it then gives me a protection violation TTY.CMD in directory [1,2] has a protection code of <60> I am the owner [1,2] I should be able to edit it. I was able to edit it once. There is also a file TECF06.TMP <60> that I can't UNSAVE I also can't UNSAVE TTY.CMD -protection violation. hrmm What do I do? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 16 18:09:29 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Turbo Pascal 3.0... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have a Turbo Pascal 3.0 manual they'd like to part with? tnx. g. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 16 18:00:59 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <00c601c49c2f$d00d3920$0500fea9@game> <414A138C.7050600@cableone.net> Message-ID: <013801c49c41$0837d2e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:28 PM Subject: Re: HP Printers > Sounds worth a look. I have now tested 4 of the 5 Laserjet IIs I had and > three give the 50 report, one works and one is buried under so much junk > I cant yet get to it. The LJ-3 is just plain dead and the LJ-4 also has > the 50 error. But now that I have one running the 5 bad units are going > out to the curb on saturday (after I check the fuser bulb idea you > suggested). One day I will check out that last LJ-2....when this one > goes out. I kind of hope the bulbs are NOT the problem, I need the > space in the garage....#8-) > You can always give them away, very few printers are made like the early HP laserjets. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 18:05:15 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <002e01c49c27$1ae15890$5a120f14@mcothran1> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL><14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <002e01c49c27$1ae15890$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: On Sep 16, 2004, at 12:55 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Koning" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 2:46 PM > Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > > >>>>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> >> Ron> Well, it's V7.. What I wanted to do is setup terminals. I >> Ron> probably should do that in tty.cmd huh. The thing is that I >> Ron> don't know how many KBn: I have and in TTY.CMD you have to put: >> >> Ron> FORCE KB0: KB1: ;SCOPE ;LC INPUT FORCE KB0: KB2: ;SCOPE ;LC >> Ron> INPUT >> >> Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected >> Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet >> Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one >> Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of >> Ron> KBn: s I can have? >> >> It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a >> Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. >> >> If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have >> to have at least 3 DZs... >> >> paul > > Ron, > > On my system, which you have been using, I addressed all these issues > at > SYSGEN time. I decided how many terminals I wanted to have, not > counting > the console, which isn't attached to the DZ11 multiplexer. I > configured for > (I think) two DZ11s, so I can have 16 KBs plus the console (KB0:). I > also > set up two pseudo keyboards (PK1:, PK2:), since I used to play with > writing > programs for those back in the 1970s. Pseudo-keyboards can run things > without being attached to a physical terminal on a DZ11 port. Kind of > like > running a detached job, but not really. > > The telnet sessions are tied directly to the DZ11 connections. In the > simulator, > each new telnet session takes the next available DZ11 KB number. > > Once you've configured your system and it's SYSGENed, you can go into > the > TTY.CMD file to define the terminal characteristics for each > "terminal". I > think > on my simh internet telnet version, I had to set them up with the RING > parameter > so it would behave like a dial up connection did back in the old days > (1970s). > > When I moved my simulated system's disk image to my real PDP-11 system > with REAL DZ11s, I removed the RING parameter and configured the > TTY.CMD file to match the physical devices that were wired with a > serial > cable or 20mA current loop connection to the DZ11. If KB3: was an > ASR-33, > I'd have to set the baud rate, etc. in the TTY.CMD to be correct for my > teletype. Same for the VT52 and LA36 terminals. I didn't worry about > this > in the simh version because they could all be configured to be VT100s > or > VT52s, as long as the telnet users were using VT100 or VT52 emulation. > > Does this all make sense? > > Ashley > > > Yes, this and the confirmation that I have 32 KBn:s So I need to make changes in my TTY.CMD to set scope on all 32. I only have a small hand full of machines to telnet in with, but each of those can telnet in more than once... whoo real multi-user... feel the "comunity" :^) Now if I can only get teco and tty.cmd to cooperate... (see "A different rsts question") Thanks for all the help, All of you. Very much. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 18:06:55 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: <000e01c49c29$a426e0a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> References: <4D3FA644-0804-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.52349.179839.728097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><16713.55263.222573.972081@gargle.gargle.HOWL><14E4DF20-080F-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><16713.57202.930851.633808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3A69FE8C-081B-11D9-91DA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <000e01c49c29$a426e0a0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <1A81A991-0835-11D9-B94E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 16, 2004, at 1:13 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Hudson" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: RSTS/E Question > > >> >>> Ron> In a real PDP11 you would have actual terminals/ttys connected >>> Ron> to physical serial ports. In my case I have Telnet >>> Ron> sessions..but I don't know how many I can have.. I suppose one >>> Ron> for each job (20 or so?) or does the DZ11 limit the number of >>> Ron> KBn: s I can have? >>> >>> It sure does. If it's a DZ (whether real, or emulated one tied to a >>> Telnet session at the emulator) it by definition has 8 ports. >>> >>> If you want 20 sessions, and they are hooked to DZs, then you'd have >>> to have at least 3 DZs... >>> >>> paul >>> >>> >> Hmm.. In the simulator, I type show dz >> >> DZ, address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334, lines=32, attached to >> 232, 8b, 0 connections >> >> Does this mean I have 32 KBn: (KB0 - KB31??) > > The console is KB0: and it does not use a DZ11 line. > I believe that any configured pseudo keyboards would use the next > numbers > in the series PK1:, PK2:, for example. > Then the actualy DZ11 KBs would start with the next number in the > series, > for example KB3:, KB4:, etc > > Ashley > I suppose actually doing 10 or so would be enough... 3 possible telneters here. > From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 16 18:23:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: data recovery from rotating memory with an HP 1650B Message-ID: <1095377037.4573.54.camel@fiche.wps.com> Hey, I just realized, I have (here at work) an old HP 1650B, with 96 (!) channels, I think it is, too many to count ("one... two... three... ... many!") but certainly >> 48. It claims to be dig-it-all (but we know what that means) and has a variable threshold (and I'd need level changers to deal with -20V logic, or wherever I pick off the signal). I don't have an operating manual, though I've puzzled out basic operation, but does anyone know how to extract sampled data from this thing? Here's a hypothesis: the sniggle I'll get off the heads will be the same as, or less than, the specified (in the hardw. man.) signal. The voltage won't increase off the head! If true, I set the 1650B thresholds such that it mimics the LGP-21's memory. Take N samples of the disk (all at once!). Check that each sample is self-consistent, eg. every sample is the same. If subsequent samples are not all the same, see what's changing. If one or few bits/track are flapping, it could be setup or weak signal. Repeat taking sample sets, with the 1650B thresh lowered 2 - 5%, say. At some point the differences between sets should radically alter. (I would in fact take a few sample sets with threshold > LGP's setting, for completeness.) In an ideal setup, each sample within a set would be self-consistent, and each sample set (with varying threshold) would be the same until the thresh crosses into the ambigious zone between LGP-21 "0" and "1", at which point it would deteriorate into garbage. The LGP-21 hardw. man. comes not only with complete memory alignment data and techniques, but photos of scope screens. Too bad all machines don't come with their own historical recovery documentation! If the 1650B can "print" to a port I can capture then this nicely formatted data could be scripted into something canonical. From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 16 18:33:24 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: data recovery from rotating memory with an HP 1650B In-Reply-To: <1095377037.4573.54.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1095377037.4573.54.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1095377603.4573.58.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 16:23, Tom Jennings wrote: > Hey, I just realized, I have (here at work) an old HP 1650B, D'oh! I forgot to ask, how many samples does this thing hold? Obviously a critical spec... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 16 18:39:23 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Well I guess the hurricane gods don't like Intel computers (or DECs!). I left plenty of them outside through THREE hurricanes now and they didn't take a single one of them. And now they're leaving Intels for me! Melbourne got CLOBBERED by Frances. They've been completely shutdown and didn't even get power back until last night. However today I went went down there and found SEVEN Intel 86/330 computers! I found five of these in the same area a couple of years ago but they were missing the hard drive and there was no hope of finding the OS for them so I eventually scrapped them for the boards and 8" FDs. However these are complete including the hard drives. They even have the IO cables rolled up and stuck inside to them and they have intel Multibus BUBBLE memory boards. Wahoo! Joe From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 16 18:44:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040916234439.GA13533@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 07:39:23PM -0400, Joe R. wrote: > Well I guess the hurricane gods don't like Intel computers (or DECs!). > I left plenty of them outside through THREE hurricanes now and they didn't > take a single one of them. And now they're leaving Intels for me! Melbourne > got CLOBBERED by Frances. I have a buddy in Melbourne... I'm sure he left, so I'm worried for his personal safety (his place is another matter), but I haven't heard from him since before Frances. :-( -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Sep-2004 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.3 F (-53.5 C) Windchill -88.8 F (-67.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.3 kts Grid 052 Barometer 684.4 mb (10460. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 16 18:49:43 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: David Betz "KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane?" (Sep 16, 12:39) References: Message-ID: <10409170049.ZM27898@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 16 2004, 12:39, David Betz wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23 with an H9270 backplane and am thinking of upgrading > to a J11 processor. I would like to use the KDJ11-B quad size board > (M8190-YB). Is that going to require me to use a different backplane? Yes. > If so, is there one that will fit in the same space as the H9270 No. > and use the same power supply? Yes. The H9270 is a serpentine backplane, with QBus on A+B slots and also on C+D. The quad KDJ11s use C+D for other things (PMI memory, mainly) so you can't put them in a serpentine backplane slot; they have to go in one that has straight QBus on A+B and the CD interconnect on C+D. The only standard DEC 4 x 4 backplane is that H9270, though some of the Plessey or other third-party backplanes might be the right size. Either you need to modify that backplane to isolate the C and D part of the first slot (and then jumper the QBus signals to the C and D parts of the next slot -- one way to achieve this might be to just remove the connectors), or you need to modify (with a saw!) some other backplane to fit, or you need a different chassis, or you need a KDJ11-A (dual height). If you only need 4 slots you might be able to adapt an H9281-A, which is 2 x 4, to fit. The PSU should do (providing you don't exceed the current ratings) -- I assume it's an H780? Is it in an BA11-M chassis? If so, it's originally been a PDP-11/03, and someone has upgraded it. The other thing is that the H9270 is only 18-bit (as are the H9281-x series, unless they have a "Q" in the part number). That in itself shouldn't stop a 22-bit processor working (your 11/23 is 22-bit) but it wouldn't be able to use more than 256KB (128K words) of adddress space. It would behave as if the top 4 address bits were always 0. You could upgrade it to 22-bit by jumpering BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 from each slot to the next. If you do that, check what you're using for termination -- it's probably only 18-bit as well (if it's a BDV11, there's a fairly easy FCO for it). The normal backplanes for a KDJ11-B are H9276 (22-bit, 4 x 8, straight) which is used in a BA11-S; H9278 (22-bit, 4 x 8, first 3 slots straight, rest serpentine) which is in a BA23; BA123 backplane (22-bit, 4 x 13, first 4 straight, next 8 serpentine, and the last slot is power-only) which doesn't have an "H" number. However, BA11-N systems with an H9273 backplane were sometimes field-upgraded and may or may not have had the extra four address lines wired. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 16 19:03:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) In-Reply-To: <414642D4.8030201@tiac.net> References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com> <10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <413B24C6.9020505@hp.com> <10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3.0.6.32.20040908122815.00974940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040916200348.009c3610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bob, I have six or seven of them here. Come and get one (or more!). Joe At 09:01 PM 9/13/04 -0400, you wrote: >Joe, > >I'd thought you were holding a complete 7970E for me already? > >What happened to that drive? > > >Joe R. wrote: > >>Bob, >> >> I have some 7970 drives but no spare parts. I can loan you a hub but >>you'll need to replace it sooner or later (or just make a deal for the >>entire drive(s)). >> >> Joe >> >> >>At 07:08 PM 9/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >> >>>I urgently need a part to repair an HP tape drive. >>> >>>What I'm looking for is the hub release mechanisim from a HP 7970 A, B, >>>C, or E drive. This same >>>part may also be used on other HP tape drives as well. The same >>>mechanisim is used for both the >>>supply and take-up reels. >>> >>>If you have a parts machine HP tape drive, please contact me ASAP. >>> >>>To remove this part from a drive, lift the tape reel unlocking tab on >>>the front of the hub. >>>You will see a small phillips head screw, remove this screw (it does not >>>need to be fully >>>unscrewed, but you might as well...). >>> >>>With the locking screw removed, unscrew (counter-clockwise) the release >>>mechanisim from the >>>hub while preventing the hub from turning (simple finger pressure should >>>do). >>> >>>How I broke my release mechanisim.... >>> >>>I had a reel of tape with a rather sticky write-enable ring mounted, and >>>it stuck to the hub. Even >>>with the release tab lifted I was unable to get this reel of tape off >>>the hub. I managed to free the >>>offending reel of tape, but in the process the release tab got whacked, >>>and the cams under the >>>tab cracked and split. >>> >>>The major pain of this is, I need to cut a bootable tape, and now I >>>cannot even mount a reel. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 16 19:13:24 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <20040916234439.GA13533@bos7.spole.gov> References: <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040916201324.009dc970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:44 PM 9/16/04 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 07:39:23PM -0400, Joe R. wrote: >> Well I guess the hurricane gods don't like Intel computers (or DECs!). >> I left plenty of them outside through THREE hurricanes now and they didn't >> take a single one of them. And now they're leaving Intels for me! Melbourne >> got CLOBBERED by Frances. > >I have a buddy in Melbourne... I'm sure he left, so I'm worried for his >personal safety (his place is another matter), but I haven't heard from >him since before Frances. :-( There's a good chance that he hasn't gotten power back yet or that he's backed up with E-mails. My buddy just got power last night but I know that there are still thousands without power. If you like, send me his phone number by direct e-mail and I'll try giving hm a call. Joe > >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Sep-2004 23:40 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.3 F (-53.5 C) Windchill -88.8 F (-67.2 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 5.3 kts Grid 052 Barometer 684.4 mb (10460. ft) > >Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 16 19:20:02 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion In-Reply-To: <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916191134.057cca98@pc> At 02:41 PM 9/16/2004, you wrote: >John Foust wrote: >>http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm > >"Some in the UCSD crowd remain convinced that their software was technologically superior to Bill Gates's MS-DOS, and still mourn that outcome." > >so, please put it open source ... Eight years ago or so, I'd inquired at the UCSD licensing office. Just dealing with a junk yard dealer, the very act of asking about an item raises its value from zero. At the time, a UK company (Cabot Software http://www.cabot.co.uk/) still held an active license from UCSD. They were pushing the p-System opcode engine as their solution for set-top boxes. By 2001, Cabot had given up on supporting or promoting technology based on their their old p-code-based system. I haven't asked at UCSD since... but if I do, I suspect they will get dollar signs in their eyes, as per above. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:27:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <200409160118.38747.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> from "Scarletdown" at Sep 16, 4 01:18:38 am Message-ID: > It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large socketed chip says: > > WD33C93A-PL > 00-08 9031 > 069660200102 > PROTO > > Other markings state: Type II Controller, and Rev. -5 > > The FCC ID number is D8I6I2 60201. > > Just taking a wild guess, I suspect that this is some sort of SCSI > Controller. However, I could not find it in the TH99 archives. The I think the 33C93 is a SCSI interface chip (I've seen it in other machines), so your guess is likely to be correct. But it may have come with some particular device (CD-ROM, tape streamer, etc) and there may never have been 'standard' MS-DOS drivers for that card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:43:43 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP printer Error 50 == fuser problems In-Reply-To: <4149C10C.6000400@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 16, 4 11:36:28 am Message-ID: > > I am trying to resurect some ancient HP laserjets. Two Laserjet II's > and one Laserjet 4v. Prior to failure they were all three running fine > and giving nice output. Then each just stoped and began to give the same > error message, "50 Service". Just what does this mean? Is it a Fusr problems. The fuser did not get to the right temperature (either too hot, or more likely too cold (it didn't heat up at all!). I can tell you how to sort out the LJ II (SX engine). Pull the fuser : Take off the cover at the left side (paper tray == front side of the pinder) -- one screw on top. Undo the 4 fuser hold-down screws and pull the fuser up and out. At the right side of the fuser is a 2 pin plug that connected to the 'AC power supply' module. Measuere the DC resistance between the pins on the fuser. It should be a few ohms. If not, then the fuser lamp is open (or the protection switch has failed). This is almost trivial to diagnose. If the lamp is OK, then take off the printer casing, take the fan off the top of the AC power supply (a few screws and a plug-in cable), then take out the screws holding down the AC power supply and pull that out too. Take it apart from the top. There are 2 PCBs in there. On the lower one, check the triac (Q801 IIRC), it controls the fuser lamp. The upper one contains protection circuity to turn off the fuser if the DC controller goes crazy. Check the electrolytics and diodes on this board. It could be a transistor failure, of course, but the caps and diodes seem to tbe the common failures here. If you can't find the fault, then I'll dig out my notes and diagrams and talk you through the various signals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:50:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 16, 4 12:56:35 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power > supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its time > to chuck 'em. Well, considering that they're a lot better made than modern laser printers, and that many of the faults can be fixed for a few dollars worth of components (the only expensive part is the heater lamp, and that, alas, is a common problem), I'd think again. I use an SX engined printer here, I've printed a fair few thousands of pages on it, and it was old when I got it. Apart from new pickup rollers it's given me no problems... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:54:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Sep 16, 4 11:52:57 am Message-ID: > > Jim Isbell wrote: > > Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power > > supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its > > time to chuck 'em. > > For the LaserJet Series II, "50 SERVICE" is likely to be the power > supply. It's less likely to be the fusing station. The power supply > would be about $30-$70 for a replacement part, which is not that hard > to replace yourself if you can work a screwdriver. Webby URLs to I am suprised at you! The 'AC power supply' is really simple inside, there are no custom parts (in fact the only 'chips' are optoisolated). There are about 10 discrete transistors on the protection board, that's all. In other words, this is something you darn well should be repairing, not replacing. Ditto for the fuser itself. The lamp (if that's what you need) is cheaper than the complete assembly. And it doesn't take long to fit it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 19:04:31 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Loading Acorn (BBC) sideways RAM. Message-ID: This is a really trivial question, but I wasn't really a BBC micro hacker in the old days, I am planning some upgrdes to a BBC Model B+ (the fact that this particular B+ lives in the bottom of an Acorn Cambridge shouldn't matter...). One of them is to combine some of the ROMs (the B+ can take 27256 32K byte EPROMs), thus freeing up some ROM sockets and put a RAM chip in one of them. I then have to fiddle the write-enable line [1] (should be easy) and I have 32K of sideways RAM. The hardware doens't worry me (I have schematics...). But how do I load a ROM image into the sideways RAM? Is there some loader program I need (and where do I get it)? Anything I should know about the image file on disk (anything about the start/end/entry addreeses in the direxctory, for example)? [1] I believe it's a good idea to be able to write-protect the sideways RAM, but I don't want to drill holes in my Cambridge. Has anoyne ever used the cassette motor line for this? Seems like an obvious thing to use. -tony From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 16 19:38:56 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <4149D3D3.7010000@cableone.net> <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <00c601c49c2f$d00d3920$0500fea9@game> <414A138C.7050600@cableone.net> <013801c49c41$0837d2e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <414A3220.9030601@cableone.net> Yes, they are the best built anywhere. Yes, I would give them away and WILL, but no one wants to pay shipping on those things and no one locally (Corpus Christi Bay, North Shore if you are wondering) is interested so Sat they go to the dump. One LJ-1, Three LJ-2, One LJ-3 and one LJ-4 Teo Zenios wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Isbell" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 6:28 PM >Subject: Re: HP Printers > > > > >>Sounds worth a look. I have now tested 4 of the 5 Laserjet IIs I had and >>three give the 50 report, one works and one is buried under so much junk >>I cant yet get to it. The LJ-3 is just plain dead and the LJ-4 also has >>the 50 error. But now that I have one running the 5 bad units are going >>out to the curb on saturday (after I check the fuser bulb idea you >>suggested). One day I will check out that last LJ-2....when this one >>goes out. I kind of hope the bulbs are NOT the problem, I need the >>space in the garage....#8-) >> >> >> > >You can always give them away, very few printers are made like the early HP >laserjets. > > > > > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 16 19:47:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040916201324.009dc970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040916193923.009ac7c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040916201324.009dc970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040917004720.GA17227@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 08:13:24PM -0400, Joe R. wrote: > At 11:44 PM 9/16/04 +0000, you wrote: > >I have a buddy in Melbourne... I'm sure he left, so I'm worried for his > >personal safety (his place is another matter), but I haven't heard from > >him since before Frances. :-( > > There's a good chance that he hasn't gotten power back yet or that he's > backed up with E-mails. My buddy just got power last night but I know that > there are still thousands without power. If you like, send me his phone > number by direct e-mail and I'll try giving hm a call. By an amazing coincidence, he IMed me at lunch today, about an half an hour after I posted this. He weathered things in Tampa. No real drama, just some superficial damage to his porch and eaves. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2004 00:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -73.3 F (-58.5 C) Windchill -106.8 F (-77.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.6 kts Grid 056 Barometer 684.2 mb (10468. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rcini at optonline.net Thu Sep 16 19:58:22 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Stupid C question Message-ID: <000c01c49c51$6eae0980$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: OK, here's where my lack of intimate knowledge of C shows. I'm working on a graphics board add-in for the Altair32 Emulator. I have 16 of the following declarations, one for each color supported by the board: const COLORREF colGray = RGB(128,128,128) ; // 8 The RGB macro converts an RGB color value to a different datatype (a DWORD) for use with various Windows APIs, such as the one I'm using to draw color boxes. The colors are in order per the video board docs, so I create an array of COLORREFs: static COLORREF colColors[] = {colGray, colMaroon, colNavy, colPurple, colGreen, colOlive, colTeal, colSilver, colBlack, colRed, colBlue, colMagenta, colLime, colYellow, colCyan, colWhite} ; This array is used with a nybble from system memory to create the drawing brush for the FillRect call: firstbyte = HINYBBLE(screenbyte) ; hbr=(HBRUSH)CreateSolidBrush(colColors[firstbyte]) ; FillRect(hdc, &rc, hbr) ; // hdc and rc declared earlier Now, here's the problem. I get compiler error C2099 on the declaration of colColors. C2099 translates to "initializer is not a constant". I'm sure that the solution is something obvious to the trained eye, but I'm not seeing it. Can someone identify what I'm missing? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 16 20:00:37 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Repair parts needed (urgently...) References: <41375369.9010100@hp.com><10409050113.ZM14468@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><413B24C6.9020505@hp.com><10409060133.ZM15542@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><3.0.6.32.20040908122815.00974940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040916200348.009c3610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <009101c49c51$bfc9e460$0100a8c0@screamer> Joe (and others...) I've just moved to a new PC, and don't have access to my contact info and old email on my old PC (It's under quarantine!). So if anyone is working a deal or needing support, please send me an off-list email. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 16 20:00:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Stupid C question References: <000c01c49c51$6eae0980$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <16714.14143.955000.259345@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Richard" == Richard A Cini writes: Richard> Hello, all: OK, here's where my lack of intimate knowledge Richard> of C shows. I'm working on a graphics board add-in for the Richard> Altair32 Emulator. I have 16 of the following declarations, Richard> one for each color supported by the board: Richard> const COLORREF colGray = RGB(128,128,128) ; // 8 That declares a variable (a read-only one) whose initial value is that color. Richard> The RGB macro converts an RGB color value to a different Richard> datatype (a DWORD) for use with various Windows APIs, such Richard> as the one I'm using to draw color boxes. The colors are in Richard> order per the video board docs, so I create an array of Richard> COLORREFs: Richard> static COLORREF colColors[] = {colGray, colMaroon, colNavy, Richard> colPurple, colGreen, colOlive, colTeal, colSilver, colBlack, Richard> colRed, colBlue, colMagenta, colLime, colYellow, colCyan, Richard> colWhite} ; Richard> Now, here's the problem. I get compiler error C2099 on the Richard> declaration of colColors. C2099 translates to "initializer Richard> is not a constant". I'm sure that the solution is something Richard> obvious to the trained eye, but I'm not seeing it. Can Richard> someone identify what I'm missing? Sure. You're telling it to initialize the array with variables. If you want to initialize it with the addresses of those variables, you have to say &foo. If you want to refer to the colors by name in an initializer, you can't do it this way -- use #define instead: #define colGray RGB(128,128,128) // etc. and the rest of the code then works. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 16 20:07:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Loading Acorn (BBC) sideways RAM. Message-ID: <200409170107.SAA29506@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >This is a really trivial question, but I wasn't really a BBC micro hacker >in the old days, > >I am planning some upgrdes to a BBC Model B+ (the fact that this >particular B+ lives in the bottom of an Acorn Cambridge shouldn't >matter...). One of them is to combine some of the ROMs (the B+ can take >27256 32K byte EPROMs), thus freeing up some ROM sockets and put a RAM >chip in one of them. I then have to fiddle the write-enable line [1] (should >be easy) and I have 32K of sideways RAM. > >The hardware doens't worry me (I have schematics...). But how do I load a >ROM image into the sideways RAM? Is there some loader program I need (and >where do I get it)? Anything I should know about the image file on disk >(anything about the start/end/entry addreeses in the direxctory, for >example)? Hi Tony It depends on the form of the image. There are no standards for these things. One can create wave files to send audio as though there were a cassette player. I've been involved in creating a number of methods to bootstrap old computers. Having a built in cassette load is something that I've not tried. Most cases, I have access to a monitor program on the target machine and I'm able to enter a small bootstrapping program. In most cases, information about load/end and start address are missing from many images. One is suppose to know this to use the image. Often doing some disassembly of the image can recover information as to where in memory it should exist. Most programs start at the beginning but not all. What kinds of images are we talking about? Are these machine language, BASIC text or something? Of course, I'm not familiar with the term sideways RAM. Do you mean shadow RAM or just parallel RAM? Could you explain a little? I would guess that you may have to write your own loader. At the simplest, it is rarely more than a few lines of code. > > >[1] I believe it's a good idea to be able to write-protect the sideways >RAM, but I don't want to drill holes in my Cambridge. Has anoyne ever >used the cassette motor line for this? Seems like an obvious thing to use. This makes sense. Also look for a unused data port bits on I/O chips. Most of these smaller machines had unused port bits someplace. These usually had a default value written to them by the machines code so that you could use the opposite value as a write enable. Dwight > >-tony > > From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Sep 16 20:22:23 2004 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: <10409170049.ZM27898@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10409170049.ZM27898@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <073A0846-0848-11D9-A908-000D9335D6E2@xlisper.mv.com> Thanks everyone for your advice on using a KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23. Unfortunately, I lost (by a mile!) the eBay auction where I was bidding on the KDJ11-B so I guess I won't be doing this upgrade anytime soon. Would it be better to look for a KDJ11-A instead? I assume that would work as-is with my backplane. Would I need a new bootstrap though? I'm currently using a MXV11 (M8047-CA) to boot an RX02 drive. Will that work with the KDJ11-A CPU? From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 16 20:26:02 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: LGP-21 and LGP-30 memory, number, address explained Message-ID: <1095384361.4573.78.camel@fiche.wps.com> These machines have a peculiar (to me) memory format, it's not really obvious, so I worked it out and wrote it up here http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/arithmetic.html simh adds to the confusion, somewhat, because it displays memory by default in "normal" mode. e -m address does the right thing for instructions, but it's missing a -option to display numerical data; for example a "2" stored in LGP memory shows as "4" in simh because of the spacer bit. Memory is 31 bits wide, the accumulator is 32 bits... From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Sep 16 20:52:25 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:54:00 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: <200409170152.i8H1qPhW019878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I am suprised at you! The 'AC power supply' is really simple inside, > there are no custom parts (in fact the only 'chips' are optoisolated). > There are about 10 discrete transistors on the protection board, that's all. > > In other words, this is something you darn well should be repairing, not > replacing. Yeah, I know, and I felt stupid about sending the dead one back for someone else to repair and send to some other SX engine user. But I was (and am) up to my fundament in other alligators, I needed for the printer to work soonish, and while I can solder, I understand analog electronics something like you understand C, only less well. If I'd left it for me to do it still wouldn't be done, and so changing it to a "depot repair" sort of problem worked really well for me. -Frank McConnell From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 16 20:59:13 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <414A44F1.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> emanuel stiebler wrote: > John Foust wrote: > >> http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm > "Some in the UCSD crowd remain convinced that their software was > technologically superior to Bill Gates's MS-DOS, and still mourn that > outcome." > > so, please put it open source ... Well for back then I would say , all was just as flakey. The only thing pascal was 'is portable' ( barely ) on the 8 bit machines. The only real NICE languages I have used where BASIC/09 and Pascal for OS/9 for the 6809 cpu. Even if you get the PASCAL OS do you get the compiler source? Ben. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 21:10:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <9ED9D480-046E-11D9-AE6D-000A95682B94@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Curt Vendel wrote: > "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a > hard > disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a > diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to > recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. <...> Speaking of which, I've got Unix for the Amiga on QIC tape. If anyone is interested then contact me and we'll see about getting the image off the tape. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 21:22:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: tan ADM3A+ with Zilog plate In-Reply-To: <20040915173052.19368.qmail@web21524.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > I've found a tan LSI AMD3A+ OEM'd by Zilog (has the Zilog name/logo on the > front faceplate). Never seen one of these before. What did it go to? Any > info? Probably a Zilog development system. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 21:15:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: M200 card reader In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040915011228.0523e320@204.233.235.7> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, Mike Shartiag wrote: > Did you have any luck in getting this running ?? > > As the article made it sound like you were shooting for an Apple did you > happen to have the DEC card with it ?? > > I'm siting on one waiting for the M843 card. Hi Mike. I believe you are referring to an old posting I wrote. Yes, I eventually got the M200 working with an Apple ][ system. I used a card with a 6522 VIA to do the interfacing. It works great. I might have a DEC interface card in my various piles but I wouldn't know and I don't have time to look :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 16 21:44:54 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Atari Unix References: Message-ID: <008401c49c60$500efed0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Atari Unix > Curt Vendel wrote: > > > "For those who own Atari TT030 workstations, I have finally gotten a > > hard > > disk with Atari's version of Unix System V on it running along with a > > diskette with setboot.prg utility that sets the nvram in the TT030's to > > recognize and boot from the Unix Hard Disk. > <...> > > Speaking of which, I've got Unix for the Amiga on QIC tape. If anyone is > interested then contact me and we'll see about getting the image off the > tape. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > http://www.mmhart.com/amix_download.htm#Downloads From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 16 22:05:56 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: what are these errors in simh Message-ID: <7EB0CCBA-0856-11D9-B94E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Device DP23: does not interrupt - device disabled also for DP26, DP27 and DP30 ??? From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 16 21:42:43 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: References: <9ED9D480-046E-11D9-AE6D-000A95682B94@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <20040917024243.GB12879@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 07:10:57PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Speaking of which, I've got Unix for the Amiga on QIC tape. If anyone is > interested then contact me and we'll see about getting the image off the > tape. I'm interested! I have numerous A3000s and a Viking Moniterm (bizarre buffered 1024x1024 greyscale display). I even saved some QIC drives once, just to be able to install from the tape, if I ever got my hands on it. I'd love to get an image file... but there's no hurry. I'm stuck with emulated Amigas for the next few months. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.2 F (-52.9 C) Windchill -92.5 F (-69.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 046 Barometer 683.6 mb (10492. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Sep 16 22:29:47 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:13 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:42:52 +0100 From: Gordon JC Pearce Subject: Re: Site Privacy issues John Lawson wrote: >> I do understand perfectly that your's is an innocuous, semi-private site, >> and making the info available to the Legacy Computing community is quite replies: > I just can't understand the thinking behind that. Do you take all the > back-up > batteries out of your PCs, so you can set up the BIOS from scratch every > time? [snip] Gordon, either you're very used to reasoning with young teenagers, or perhaps you are quite young yourself - no matter. There is a term: reductio ad absurdam, and I shall not dignify your post any further than to refer you to that term, it's definition, meaning, and how it might apply to the above.. Cheers John From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 16 22:35:31 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: <20040917033531.E030C3FD0@spies.com> I found five of these in the same area a couple of years ago but they were missing the hard drive and there was no hope of finding the OS for them so I eventually scrapped them -- Was this before I found the copy of iRMX86 on eBay? From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 22:45:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard In-Reply-To: <1095328073.18571.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > (My car-based mp3 jukebox project has been stalled for years until I can > figure out a way of navigating thousands of audio files on the move > without killing myself :-) http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 16 22:54:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409161852.i8GIqv1A016509@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Frank McConnell wrote: > Jim Isbell wrote: > > Thanks, it helps in that it tells me where the problem may be...power > > supply. But the 20 second off cycle didn't help so now I think its > > time to chuck 'em. > > For the LaserJet Series II, "50 SERVICE" is likely to be the power > supply. It's less likely to be the fusing station. The power supply > would be about $30-$70 for a replacement part, which is not that hard > to replace yourself if you can work a screwdriver. Webby URLs to > check for more information include > and . I just scrapped a couple LJ II's :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 09:45:44 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Registry Problems In-Reply-To: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> References: <414853C0.3030007@cableone.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040915104451.033bfce0@mail.earthlink.net> go to Start->Run... and type in regedit and execute it. You can search and edit the registry then. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 10:37 AM 09/15/2004, you wrote: >This is not on the subject of older systems, but I have a problem that I >hope someone can direct me to a list that covers it. > >I have four "programs" that are sitting in the Registry of my XP system >and could be causing some problems for me with popups. How do I get into >the registry to delete these files? Windows explorer does not display any >system files or directories and the "find": function cannot find the files >even though it is set to search hidden and system directories but I know >they are there because they were found by SpyHunter and are labeled as >dangerous. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 16 23:14:03 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Help, I need a very small PS/2-style keyboard References: Message-ID: <414A648B.9080502@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >>(My car-based mp3 jukebox project has been stalled for years until I can >>figure out a way of navigating thousands of audio files on the move >>without killing myself :-) > > > http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/ Use a single 45 record and a nice valve amp. What was wrong with the old 8 track format anyhow other than too cheap cases and poor audio tape ? If random access is not needed how about 4 tracks of audio ... about 15? minutes long. Tape selection as 000...999 4 push buttons to toggle selection ... audio response 7 hundred and Fifty The best of blah blah blah ... track 3 Ben. PS. mp3 may be too compressed for home audio however with a nive valve amp. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 16 23:27:08 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Atari Unix In-Reply-To: <008401c49c60$500efed0$0500fea9@game> References: <008401c49c60$500efed0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040917042708.GA1397@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 10:44:54PM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ...Unix for the Amiga on QIC tape... > > http://www.mmhart.com/amix_download.htm#Downloads Wow! A goldmine for AMIX! Thanks much for this link. I may try to grab this and give it a go under one of the Amiga Emulators. Back in the day, I was interested in AMIX, but was already running SysV on other hardware, so I didn't invest in the $$$ it would take to get AMIX. Kinda nice to get the chance to play with it now. Thanks again! -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2004 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74 F (-58.9 C) Windchill -104 F (-75.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.8 kts Grid 059 Barometer 683.2 mb (10504. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Sep 17 00:24:50 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: <1f0.2b02270a.2e7bcf22@aol.com> Nice find Joe. Somewhere in my container I have a 330 and a 380 and the operating systems on 8" disk. It probably won't be this year that I get to them though. Paxton, Astoria, OR From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 17 00:33:04 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: more RSTS/E strangeness.... Message-ID: <0C8A45F3-086B-11D9-80B7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> ooh no it's that Hudson fellow again. Someone take his PDP 11 away, he don't know how to use it.. There is a problem when I am logged to my RSTS/E(simh) in as [1,2]. I recently have been trying to edit my tty.cmd file, I am using teco, I edit the file making a change, I save the file with the teco command ex$$, ($=escape). Once out of teco I type tty.cmd to verify my changes. I then use pip to copy tty.cmd to tty.bak and tty.old . Then I shutdown RSTS/E and restart - to make sure my changes work. On reboot RSTS can't run tty.cmd - claims it can't even find it. Of course the startup procedure stops at that point so a lot of other things don't get done (loading error managers, spool managers, batch manager and defining CCL are the main things) While in this state directory (run $direct) cant find tty.* none of the tty files I copied remain.. I even tried saving a file named cmd.tty and it vanished too. I type a new tty.cmd from scratch (using teco or pip) and reboot and now **all** of them are back. 8^P What's up? I think I need a nice RSTS/E boot camp. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 17 01:21:14 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. Message-ID: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, after forgetting to bid on the 11/780 that was on eBay, ending on Sunday (I slept in 15 minutes too late), I decided to drop the guy a message and see if he had another 11/780. Much to my amazement he did, and when I asked if he had any other DEC equipment, he replied that he had an 11/750 (which it turned out he had two, but I only took one of), and that I should "bring the largest truck I could find, and he'd get me loaded up. So, I spent Sunday night looking at options for rental or borrowed trucks, and times, and decided that it was cheap enough to get a 15' Budget Truck (which was a lot cheaper than what Penske or UHaul wanted for a similar size), and after finding out he'd be leaving Friday for a month, I decided I needed to go get the stuff now. So, I reserved the truck for Tuesday. Having done this "move computer that weighs a lot" thing a few times before, I put together some tools Monday night, 10 or 12 ratchet straps, hard packing foam to keep stuff from scratching too badly, tape for marking things, along with some cardboard boxes, ziploc bags, masking tape and a sharpie and 2 friends (well one was my roommate). We left here at 8am on Tuesday morning, picked up the Truck in Waukesa, WI, around 12:15, and got to the place before 12:30, avoiding too much bad traffic driving through Chicago a bit after morning rush hour. The building the machines have been stored in for the last decade (or more) is an old limestone building in downtown Waukesa, which according to the guy who was trying to clear out the stuff used to be a brewery - fitting for an old building near Milwaukee. : ) Anyhow, the guy is a landlord, and some company was using the building as storage. He said that there used to be a lot more machines there before - some had been scrapped, and he had been able to sell some things using eBay. So, after getting there we loaded up the 11/750, and UNIBUS expansion rack that appeared to go with it, and headed to the "large pile" to look through more things. In that pile were the two 11/780s, another 11/750, a Systems Industries disk rack with some sort of controller, which I'm guessing goes with the VAXen, a 5ft DEC rack with a Cipher tape drive in the top and a UNIBUS box at the bottom. Aparently, attached to all the VAX hardware was some Intergraph and Synercom CAD "workstations", which consisted of an approx. 4x2x3ft (WxDxH) box that contained the "main electronics" with a 4x2 ft digitizing tablet, and two monitors which were 20-24" on top of the main 4x2x3ft box. The Intergraph ones were somewhat plain, with the two monitors in one enclosure, but the Synercom ones had a very "Bat-Cave" feel to them, and were separate monitors on swivel posts. If I had room for one, I would have grabbed one of them. I didn't get a chance to look too closely, or take a picture either, which I do somewhat regret. In the back corner behind that stuff was a CDC 14" disc cartridge drive of some sort (which was rated 1phase, 208VAC.. I didn't have room for it, or disk carts), a Sun 3/180 with a pair of 800MB-ish Fujitsu SMD drives and a Sun-branded 9-track tape drive. The final item I found there was a Data General Eclips MV/4000. It had two 19" rack mount disk drives, which appeared to possibly be SCSI (?), a 9-track drive, and the CPU. So, I managed to bring home one of the 11/750s, its expansion cabinet, one 11/780, the Systems Industries disk rack, the DEC rack with the Cipher drive and UNIBUS box, the Sun 3/180 rack, and the DG Eclipse. All in all, I'd say I made out fairly well. The truck was probably a bit overloaded (I'm certain we had more than 3500lbs of stuff in the truck, which what it's "suggested capacity" was, as the leaf springs on the back tires were arcing upwards slightly, instead of downwards... I'm glad it's a rental. : ) The ride home brought us right through rush-hour traffic on Chicago's loop (I-90/94), and we got back here around 10pm; we left for home around 5pm after some lunch. I spent the next day (Wednesday) working all day, and then came home and unloaded the truck with some help from friends. We removed as much weight as we could from the racks before taking them down the ramp, which was actually wide enough to be of some help, and was strong enough to hold up to the mostly-intact 11/780. I've got a picture of the 11/780 up, with the front doors removed: http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11780/vax11780-front-open.jpg I don't yet have pictures of anything else, nor do I have most of it reassembled yet. I spent this afternoon testing the 11/780's power supplies with a dummy load - they all appear to work - and then running a 30A 220V line from where there used to be an electric range in this house to the garage so I can try to power it up. I noticed when I was working on the VAX (I had to look at what cards are in it!) that it has a full complement of 32MB of ram (8 x 4MB boards), made by EMC Corp, along with a memory backplane power supply by EMC and a battery-backup power supply box for the memory, which was the same as what the 11/750 used for its memory backup (the 11/750 I got also had a memory backup battery power supply). I took the batteries out of those, along with the TODC power supply, as I'm quite certain that they need to be replaced. If I can remember, tomorrow I'll be fetching a new battery for the TODC power supply in the 11/780 and fitting that. Tomorrow I'll be finishing that up, wiring up an adaptor so I can plug in the 11/780's PDU (I "fixed" it a bit - moved plugs around - so I can use it with 1-phase 220 instead of 3-phase 208), and potentially re-racking some of the rest of what I have. I hope to have the 11/780 cleaned up and ready to try powering up before the end of the weekend. After that will be the Eclipse, the 11/750, and the Sun 3/180 (in no particular order). As I set up my 11/780, I'm gonna try to put together a page on it like the 11/750 page I have on my site right now, I'll probably do something similar for the Eclipse too once I get that far. One thing I noticed after getting home is that I should have engaged the shipping locks on the disk drives... so I don't know how well they faired, but that'll be something I can worry about later, as it's too late to do anything about it now. In one of the UNIBUS boxes (presumably for the 11/780) I got, there was a Emulex UC18 UNIBUS SCSI card, so if all else fails, I should be able to put some low-power disk drives (even FH 5.25" drives are low power for it! :) on that thing, and I *think* (but am not yet sure because I haven't checked it out) that the Eclipse also uses SCSI disks. I realize how much the UC18 is probably worth, and would consider selling it if I had another form of mass-storage for the 11/780, but I'm not sure I do.... that's something I still have to look into. Since the stuff I got is now blocking my roommate from parking in the garage, I'm gonna have to start purging some of the smaller / less interesting things I've got laying around here, so look out for postings of stuff available from me soon. As well, if you're interested in the Intergraph or Synercom stuff, or those disk drives (sorry I didn't look closely enough for a part #), you might want to look the guy up via the 11/780 auction and send the guy a message. Just remember that someone already has the other 11/780 and 11/750 going to him. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 17 02:27:42 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane? In-Reply-To: David Betz "Re: KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23 backplane?" (Sep 16, 21:22) References: <10409170049.ZM27898@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <073A0846-0848-11D9-A908-000D9335D6E2@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <10409170827.ZM28302@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 16 2004, 21:22, David Betz wrote: > Thanks everyone for your advice on using a KDJ11-B in a PDP-11/23. > Unfortunately, I lost (by a mile!) the eBay auction where I was bidding > on the KDJ11-B so I guess I won't be doing this upgrade anytime soon. > Would it be better to look for a KDJ11-A instead? Maybe. It doesn't have the on-board SLUs, LTC, or bootstrap, of course, so you'll need some other serial port for your console (as you have at present, on your MXV11) and bootstrap (ditto). You'd also need a line time clock signal for some OSs (RT-11 won't mind but others will). > I assume that would > work as-is with my backplane. Would I need a new bootstrap though? I'm > currently using a MXV11 (M8047-CA) to boot an RX02 drive. Will that > work with the KDJ11-A CPU? It'll work fine, but you might want a different bootstrap, for which that MXV11-A won't really do. None of the standard KDJ11 bootstraps will fit (the ROM space on it is too small, and the mapping is wrong) and the memory is only 18-bit. You can disable the memory, and/or the bootstrap, but that doesn't leave much! If you could find an MXV11-B (M7195) instead, that would do nicely, but you don't actually need one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 17 02:58:45 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> John Lawson wrote: > > Gordon, either you're very used to reasoning with young teenagers, or > perhaps you are quite young yourself - no matter. There is a term: > reductio ad absurdam, and I shall not dignify your post any further than > to refer you to that term, it's definition, meaning, and how it might > apply to the above.. "absurdum", if my grasp of Latin isn't quite as rusty as I fear it may be. I don't know, it just seems that it's people who either don't understand how web browsers and non-static sites work, or relative newbies to the Internet, seem to shout and rave about cookies "OMG, that site sent me a *cookie*! I'm being hacked! They're going to steal my credit card number and my pr0n stash!" Pretty much any site that does anything "cleverer" than serve up static pages is going to need some means by which the server can keep state - HTTP doesn't really have a mechanism for this, since the connection is closed once the page has been sent. Now, if you want the server to have some idea of where a given client has come from *within your own site*, you can either fake it with hidden form fields (not always possible, but worth a try), a big long identifier in the GET request (ugly, and prone to error), or use a cookie. It's not a fantastic way of doing it, but it's the "least worst" in the absence of properly stateful connections. Of course, if you don't want to use them, that's just fine. You may well miss out on a few sites, but that's entirely your choice. It would be a shame if you did so, without really understanding *why* other than some vague idea that "cookies are bad". You may also wish to try a browser like Firefox, which lets you allow or deny cookies on a site-by-site basis. I tend to use it to block cookies from the major banner-ad providers, except on sites where I really think the adverts are justified - some content *does* need to be paid for, and if the sites want to use banner ads and they are not too obnoxious, sometime's I'll even click on them. Heigh-ho. I'm sure I won't convince you out of your resolutely cookie-free mode of thought. At least I haven't descended to mis-spelt Latin and patronising remarks about teenagers. Just to give you some frame of reference, I am probably around the young-to-median point of the age range of this list (actually, what *is* the age range? It would be interesting to know) - old enough to remember the days before sub-?100 home computers, and *just* old enough to fondly remember Honeywell CP-6 at university. Not that I was supposed to be on there until 3rd year, being an EE student. They only really let the Comp Sci bods play with it. Just depends which sysadmin you take to the pub... Gordon. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Sep 17 02:58:51 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:33:39 EDT." <002501c49c2c$738a8b10$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <200409170758.IAA01205@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Ashley Carder" said: > > Thanks for the lesson, Paul. It's nice to have someone here on the list who > knows this stuff from the inside, rather than an old hacker like me, who > dabbled with it 27 years ago from the outside, trying to find out what > was going on on the inside. I heartily concur. I run RSTS/E but my only previous exposure to it was as a humble user many years ago. Trying to get it running the way I want has led to much head-scratching and reading :-) This thread has been most enlightening. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Sep 17 04:16:11 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 2004, John Lawson wrote: > That may be well and good, but I found it intrusive. And a beat later, > your site tried to set a cookie; I dumped it immediately and won't be > back. > ... > "Grumpy-as-Fred" John Tssk. Grumpier Old Men. ! --f From whdawson at localisps.net Fri Sep 17 04:42:45 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? Message-ID: FWIW "A startup claims it has created software that lets programs run on any operating system?and any processor?without slowing down. Is the hype for real this time?" http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/09/wo_hellweg091704.asp?p=0 or http://tinyurl.com/3l3px From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 07:04:59 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414AD2EB.9040705@pacbell.net> Bill Dawson wrote: > FWIW > > "A startup claims it has created software that lets programs run on any > operating system?and any processor?without slowing down. Is the hype for > real this time?" > > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/09/wo_hellweg091704.asp?p=0 > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/3l3px What they are doing is something similar to what Apple did for the 68K to PowerPC transition. If you look at Transitive's own website, they admit that the emulation has overhead. I think their claim is that they are around 80% of native performance on comparably-powerful hardware, and that in the expected scenario of bringing legacy software forward to a newer platform, the newer harware would make up the difference. With modern dynamic translation techniques, emulation can be this efficient, though performance can vary considerably with characteristics of the workload -- dynamic translation schemes are like caches, and are sensitive to program locality, among other things. It could very much be real, in a useful and pragmatic sense, but there's no magic there. --Bill From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 07:24:14 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Gordon... <> A good post, only two comments.... >>> It's not a fantastic way of doing it, but >>> it's the "least worst" in the absence of properly stateful >>> connections. I disagree with the use of "properly" in the above. There are many advantages to a stateless sitution [e.g. scability and state management]. IMHO one of the serious problems out there are sites that impose state when none is really required. >>> You may also wish to try a browser like >>> Firefox, which lets you allow or deny cookies on a >>> site-by-site basis. Without getting into the whole "browser discussion", IE 6.0 also allows cookie selection on a site by site basis. Perchance not as completely as FireFox (or others) but a vast improvement over previous versions. David From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 17 08:55:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: what are these errors in simh References: <7EB0CCBA-0856-11D9-B94E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16714.60623.445551.25240@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Device DP23: does not interrupt - device disabled also for DP26, Ron> DP27 and DP30 ??? Most likely it means you have an incorrect I/O space layout. These are messages from the INIT part of RSTS/E. It assumes that I/O devices are installed according to the fixed and floating CSR layout rules. It uses that to identify the devices. Having identified each by its address, it then tries to verify that it works and what its vector is by "poking" it. (I don't know if MS ever claimed to have invented plug & play -- if they did, they are wrong...) So you have a device whose CSR address says it's DP11 unit number 23, and when spoken to as if it were a DP11, it doesn't wake up. Check the floating CSR rules and update your SIMH config... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 17 08:58:44 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: more RSTS/E strangeness.... References: <0C8A45F3-086B-11D9-80B7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16714.60820.973106.574397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> ooh no it's that Hudson fellow again. Someone take his PDP 11 Ron> away, he don't know how to use it.. Ron> There is a problem when I am logged to my RSTS/E(simh) in as Ron> [1,2]. Ron> I recently have been trying to edit my tty.cmd file, I am using Ron> teco, I edit the file making a change, I save the file with the Ron> teco command ex$$, ($=escape). Once out of teco I type tty.cmd Ron> to verify my changes. I then use pip to copy tty.cmd to tty.bak Ron> and tty.old . Ron> Then I shutdown RSTS/E and restart - to make sure my changes Ron> work. Ron> On reboot RSTS can't run tty.cmd - claims it can't even find it. Ron> Of course the startup procedure stops at that point so a lot of Ron> other things don't get done (loading error managers, spool Ron> managers, batch manager and defining CCL are the main things) Ron> While in this state directory (run $direct) cant find tty.* none Ron> of the tty files I copied remain.. Ron> I even tried saving a file named cmd.tty and it vanished too. Ron> I type a new tty.cmd from scratch (using teco or pip) and reboot Ron> and now **all** of them are back. Ron> 8^P What's up? Sounds like a corrupt file structure. Try the "clean" option in INIT (Refresh command) at boot. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 17 09:08:28 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? In-Reply-To: <414AD2EB.9040705@pacbell.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040917100231.03a2dc98@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Maddox may have mentioned these words: >What they are doing is something similar to what Apple did for the 68K to >PowerPC transition. Or DEC with their WinNT4 software that allowed DEC Alphas to run 32-bit Intel WinNT4 binaries. IIRC, it could be done "on the fly" (more overhead) or "precompiled" and saved back to the hard drive. Pity my memory sucks to the point I can't remember what it was called... > If you look at Transitive's own website, they >admit that the emulation has overhead. They'd be fools not to! > I think their claim is that they >are around 80% of native performance on comparably-powerful hardware, >and that in the expected scenario of bringing legacy software forward to >a newer platform, the newer harware would make up the difference. That's very possible. >With modern dynamic translation techniques, emulation can be this >efficient, though performance can vary considerably with characteristics >of the workload -- dynamic translation schemes are like caches, and are >sensitive to program locality, among other things. It could very much >be real, in a useful and pragmatic sense, but there's no magic there. Can you say "Transmeta Crusoe in software?" Under the right conditions (read: compiled with special optimization flags) it's clock for clock faster than the x86 it's "emulating." Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 09:11:49 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <20040917033531.E030C3FD0@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917101149.008f6db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:35 PM 9/16/04 -0700, you wrote: > > >I found five of these in the same area >a couple of years ago but they were missing the hard drive and there was no >hope of finding the OS for them so I eventually scrapped them > >-- > >Was this before I found the copy of iRMX86 on eBay? You dirty dog! I didn't know that you had a copy! Can I get a copy of it and the docs for it? I've been looking for a copy for years. I thought I'd found a working system with it a couple of years ago but it turned out to have XENIX on it instead (and I could never get around the password). Dammed nice system though, has a 486 CPU with something like 4Mb of RAM. It's an intel model 320 IIRC. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 09:16:21 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <1f0.2b02270a.2e7bcf22@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917101621.008841f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Paxton, I'm not familar with the 330 and 380. Can you tell me more about them? Do you have XENIX or iRMX on them? I have a 320(?) with XENIX on it but can't get past the password. I'd like to get a copy of the OS that you have if you ever dig it out. Joe At 01:24 AM 9/17/04 -0400, you wrote: >Nice find Joe. Somewhere in my container I have a 330 and a 380 and the >operating systems on 8" disk. > >It probably won't be this year that I get to them though. > >Paxton, >Astoria, OR > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 17 09:23:17 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200409170723.17315.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Congratulations on a great rescue!!!! Lyle On Thursday 16 September 2004 23:21, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > So, after forgetting to bid on the 11/780 that was on eBay, ending on > Sunday (I slept in 15 minutes too late), I decided to drop the guy a > message and see if he had another 11/780. > > Much to my amazement he did, and when I asked if he had any other DEC > equipment, he replied that he had an 11/750 (which it turned out he had > two, but I only took one of), and that I should "bring the largest truck > I could find, and he'd get me loaded up. > > So, I spent Sunday night looking at options for rental or borrowed > trucks, and times, and decided that it was cheap enough to get a 15' > Budget Truck (which was a lot cheaper than what Penske or UHaul wanted > for a similar size), and after finding out he'd be leaving Friday for a > month, I decided I needed to go get the stuff now. So, I reserved the > truck for Tuesday. > > Having done this "move computer that weighs a lot" thing a few times > before, I put together some tools Monday night, 10 or 12 ratchet straps, > hard packing foam to keep stuff from scratching too badly, tape for > marking things, along with some cardboard boxes, ziploc bags, masking > tape and a sharpie and 2 friends (well one was my roommate). > > We left here at 8am on Tuesday morning, picked up the Truck in Waukesa, > WI, around 12:15, and got to the place before 12:30, avoiding too much > bad traffic driving through Chicago a bit after morning rush hour. > > The building the machines have been stored in for the last decade (or > more) is an old limestone building in downtown Waukesa, which according > to the guy who was trying to clear out the stuff used to be a brewery - > fitting for an old building near Milwaukee. : ) Anyhow, the guy is a > landlord, and some company was using the building as storage. He said > that there used to be a lot more machines there before - some had been > scrapped, and he had been able to sell some things using eBay. > > So, after getting there we loaded up the 11/750, and UNIBUS expansion > rack that appeared to go with it, and headed to the "large pile" to look > through more things. In that pile were the two 11/780s, another 11/750, > a Systems Industries disk rack with some sort of controller, which I'm > guessing goes with the VAXen, a 5ft DEC rack with a Cipher tape drive in > the top and a UNIBUS box at the bottom. > > Aparently, attached to all the VAX hardware was some Intergraph and > Synercom CAD "workstations", which consisted of an approx. 4x2x3ft > (WxDxH) box that contained the "main electronics" with a 4x2 ft > digitizing tablet, and two monitors which were 20-24" on top of the > main 4x2x3ft box. The Intergraph ones were somewhat plain, with the two > monitors in one enclosure, but the Synercom ones had a very "Bat-Cave" > feel to them, and were separate monitors on swivel posts. If I had room > for one, I would have grabbed one of them. I didn't get a chance to > look too closely, or take a picture either, which I do somewhat regret. > > In the back corner behind that stuff was a CDC 14" disc cartridge drive > of some sort (which was rated 1phase, 208VAC.. I didn't have room for > it, or disk carts), a Sun 3/180 with a pair of 800MB-ish Fujitsu SMD > drives and a Sun-branded 9-track tape drive. > > The final item I found there was a Data General Eclips MV/4000. It had > two 19" rack mount disk drives, which appeared to possibly be SCSI (?), > a 9-track drive, and the CPU. > > So, I managed to bring home one of the 11/750s, its expansion cabinet, > one 11/780, the Systems Industries disk rack, the DEC rack with the > Cipher drive and UNIBUS box, the Sun 3/180 rack, and the DG Eclipse. > > All in all, I'd say I made out fairly well. The truck was probably a bit > overloaded (I'm certain we had more than 3500lbs of stuff in the truck, > which what it's "suggested capacity" was, as the leaf springs on the > back tires were arcing upwards slightly, instead of downwards... I'm > glad it's a rental. : ) The ride home brought us right through > rush-hour traffic on Chicago's loop (I-90/94), and we got back here > around 10pm; we left for home around 5pm after some lunch. > > I spent the next day (Wednesday) working all day, and then came home and > unloaded the truck with some help from friends. We removed as much > weight as we could from the racks before taking them down the ramp, > which was actually wide enough to be of some help, and was strong enough > to hold up to the mostly-intact 11/780. > > I've got a picture of the 11/780 up, with the front doors removed: > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11780/vax11780-front-open.jp >g I don't yet have pictures of anything else, nor do I have most of it > reassembled yet. I spent this afternoon testing the 11/780's power > supplies with a dummy load - they all appear to work - and then running a > 30A 220V line from where there used to be an electric range in this house > to the garage so I can try to power it up. > > I noticed when I was working on the VAX (I had to look at what cards are > in it!) that it has a full complement of 32MB of ram (8 x 4MB boards), > made by EMC Corp, along with a memory backplane power supply by EMC and > a battery-backup power supply box for the memory, which was the same as > what the 11/750 used for its memory backup (the 11/750 I got also had a > memory backup battery power supply). I took the batteries out of those, > along with the TODC power supply, as I'm quite certain that they need to > be replaced. If I can remember, tomorrow I'll be fetching a new battery > for the TODC power supply in the 11/780 and fitting that. > > Tomorrow I'll be finishing that up, wiring up an adaptor so I can plug in > the 11/780's PDU (I "fixed" it a bit - moved plugs around - so I can use > it with 1-phase 220 instead of 3-phase 208), and potentially re-racking > some of the rest of what I have. I hope to have the 11/780 cleaned up > and ready to try powering up before the end of the weekend. After that > will be the Eclipse, the 11/750, and the Sun 3/180 (in no particular > order). As I set up my 11/780, I'm gonna try to put together a page on > it like the 11/750 page I have on my site right now, I'll probably do > something similar for the Eclipse too once I get that far. > > One thing I noticed after getting home is that I should have engaged the > shipping locks on the disk drives... so I don't know how well they > faired, but that'll be something I can worry about later, as it's too > late to do anything about it now. In one of the UNIBUS boxes > (presumably for the 11/780) I got, there was a Emulex UC18 UNIBUS SCSI > card, so if all else fails, I should be able to put some low-power disk > drives (even FH 5.25" drives are low power for it! :) on that thing, and > I *think* (but am not yet sure because I haven't checked it out) that > the Eclipse also uses SCSI disks. I realize how much the UC18 is > probably worth, and would consider selling it if I had another form of > mass-storage for the 11/780, but I'm not sure I do.... that's something > I still have to look into. > > Since the stuff I got is now blocking my roommate from parking in the > garage, I'm gonna have to start purging some of the smaller / less > interesting things I've got laying around here, so look out for postings > of stuff available from me soon. As well, if you're interested in the > Intergraph or Synercom stuff, or those disk drives (sorry I didn't look > closely enough for a part #), you might want to look the guy up via the > 11/780 auction and send the guy a message. Just remember that someone > already has the other 11/780 and 11/750 going to him. :) > > Pat -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 17 09:27:24 2004 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040917100231.03a2dc98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040917151410.F0CAD39250@linux.local> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:08:28 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that William Maddox may have mentioned these words: > >>What they are doing is something similar to what Apple did for the 68K to >>PowerPC transition. > >Or DEC with their WinNT4 software that allowed DEC Alphas to run 32-bit >Intel WinNT4 binaries. IIRC, it could be done "on the fly" (more overhead) >or "precompiled" and saved back to the hard drive. Pity my memory sucks to >the point I can't remember what it was called... That stuff was called FX!32 ... Bernd Bernd Kopriva Tel: 07195 / 179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail : bernd@kopriva.de 71397 Leutenbach From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 17 09:31:42 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040917101149.008f6db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917101149.008f6db0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200409170731.42102.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've been looking for a copy of iRMX86 for years as well. Please let me know how I can get a copy!!!! Lyle On Friday 17 September 2004 07:11, Joe R. wrote: > At 08:35 PM 9/16/04 -0700, you wrote: > >I found five of these in the same area > >a couple of years ago but they were missing the hard drive and there was > > no hope of finding the OS for them so I eventually scrapped them > > > >-- > > > >Was this before I found the copy of iRMX86 on eBay? > > You dirty dog! I didn't know that you had a copy! Can I get a copy of > it and the docs for it? I've been looking for a copy for years. I thought > I'd found a working system with it a couple of years ago but it turned out > to have XENIX on it instead (and I could never get around the password). > Dammed nice system though, has a 486 CPU with something like 4Mb of RAM. > It's an intel model 320 IIRC. > > Joe -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 17 09:49:48 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: more RSTS/E strangeness.... In-Reply-To: <16714.60820.973106.574397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0C8A45F3-086B-11D9-80B7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16714.60820.973106.574397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2004, at 6:58 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> ooh no it's that Hudson fellow again. Someone take his PDP 11 > Ron> away, he don't know how to use it.. > > Ron> There is a problem when I am logged to my RSTS/E(simh) in as > Ron> [1,2]. > > Ron> I recently have been trying to edit my tty.cmd file, I am using > Ron> teco, I edit the file making a change, I save the file with the > Ron> teco command ex$$, ($=escape). Once out of teco I type tty.cmd > Ron> to verify my changes. I then use pip to copy tty.cmd to tty.bak > Ron> and tty.old . > > Ron> Then I shutdown RSTS/E and restart - to make sure my changes > Ron> work. > > Ron> On reboot RSTS can't run tty.cmd - claims it can't even find it. > Ron> Of course the startup procedure stops at that point so a lot of > Ron> other things don't get done (loading error managers, spool > Ron> managers, batch manager and defining CCL are the main things) > > Ron> While in this state directory (run $direct) cant find tty.* none > Ron> of the tty files I copied remain.. > > Ron> I even tried saving a file named cmd.tty and it vanished too. > > Ron> I type a new tty.cmd from scratch (using teco or pip) and reboot > Ron> and now **all** of them are back. > > Ron> 8^P What's up? > > Sounds like a corrupt file structure. > > Try the "clean" option in INIT (Refresh command) at boot. > > paul > > I have used clean $onlcln while booted to another pack. I think it's something in the way I use teco or pip... From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 17 10:04:14 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040917100231.03a2dc98@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040917100231.03a2dc98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >Or DEC with their WinNT4 software that allowed DEC Alphas to run >32-bit Intel WinNT4 binaries. IIRC, it could be done "on the fly" >(more overhead) or "precompiled" and saved back to the hard drive. >Pity my memory sucks to the point I can't remember what it was >called... IIRC, each time you ran the software through the FX!32 emulator it translated more of it to native code. So the more you ran an app the faster it got up to a certain point. I tried it briefly, and it seemed to work fairly well. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 17 10:06:28 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <03b701c49cc7$e9028d20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > I don't know, it just seems that it's people who either don't understand > how web browsers and non-static sites work, or relative newbies to the > Internet, seem to shout and rave about cookies "OMG, that site sent me a > *cookie*! I'm being hacked! They're going to steal my credit card > number and my pr0n stash!" I'm going to jump in here (hopefully briefly). I am not a fan of cookies, and run with them turned off by default. I am also a user of cash, for many of the same reasons. I'd like to draw an analogy between cookies and meatspace transactions. When I go into a a store to buy something, I like to whip out my cash, pay for the item, and be on my way. I am not interested in forming a "relationship" with the shipkeeper. Likewise, I like my web browsing to be quick and anonymous, unless there is a good reason for the interaction to be otherwise. To me, cookies are the web equivalent to those obnoxious shopper cards that have been all the rage lately with store owners. Now when I go to buy coffee at the store, the clerk asks if I have a store card, even though (or especially because?) I am paying in cash. If I don't have one, (s)he immediately offers me one. Why does (s)he do this? Is it because they want to identify repeat customers, and offer them all kinds of discounts? No. That might be why customers do it, but it isn't why stores do it. (S)he does this because the store wants to de-anonymize the transaction. They want to track my buying habits and offer customized advertising (not to me, to the advertisers!), in the form of coupons on the back of the sales slip, junk mail, and (in the case of Safeway and Amazon, at least) later when I browse the web. This is the real reason many sites want to place a cookie -- they want to identify me, profile me, and offer me tailor made propoganda for a variety of causes. This always sounds like a great idea to them. No thanks. I am also aware that transparent GIF images and other technologies replace cookies, and are much more difficult to suppress. > Pretty much any site that does anything "cleverer" than serve up static > pages is going to need some means by which the server can keep state - > HTTP doesn't really have a mechanism for this, since the connection is > closed once the page has been sent. Now, if you want the server to have > some idea of where a given client has come from *within your own site*, > you can either fake it with hidden form fields (not always possible, but > worth a try), a big long identifier in the GET request (ugly, and prone > to error), or use a cookie. It's not a fantastic way of doing it, but > it's the "least worst" in the absence of properly stateful connections. The number of sites that need to do anything "cleverer" than serve static pages is quite small. If I am actually going to do business with a web site (and I do, with a few), then I will turn on cookies, etc. My especial peeve is with the sites that really are only serving static pages, but want to place a cookie anyway. There is no good reason why I should want them to do this. One of the assumptions that lurks behind this mindset is that, although our needs converge on a particular interaction, it is important to remember that others have their own interests at heart, not mine (rightly so), and that their interests and mine will frequently be in conflict. To summarize, I think of cookies like those store cards, and refuse them for a lot of the same reasons. > Just to give you some > frame of reference, I am probably around the young-to-median point of > the age range of this list (actually, what *is* the age range? It would > be interesting to know) - old enough to remember the days before > sub-?100 home computers, and *just* old enough to fondly remember > Honeywell CP-6 at university. Late 40s, myself. Don't know, but from the small sample I have, that puts me within a few years of a lot of others. Vince From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Sep 17 10:14:17 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:14 2005 Subject: Panasonic FDD number decode? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917104455.05ced010@mail.netsync.net> Has anyone information on decoding the model number suffix on a Panasonic 3.5" floppy drive? The number is JU-257-14PF. I was told it was a 720K drive when I bought it some time ago but it seems to act like a 1.44MB unit. Need to confirm as I want a 720K for an industrial OS-9/68K system I'm thinking of dragging out of storage. Controller only talks 720K. Controllers in PC's use connector pin two, IIRC, to select lo/hi density. Is my drive selectable by internal jumpers for 720k only/1.44MB only (and is there such a drive available in general)? I don't care to hack the hardware on my nice OS-9 system just to make something work. I can find 900+ hits on Google at this moment for the JU-257. Several different suffixes are shown and many indicate 1.44MB capacity. There's but only one with the -14PF suffix which appears in the search under the inventory of Searchlight Tech.com site. No descriptive help there. Methinks this is in fact a HD drive instead of the desired 720K and I was, basically, ripped off. Neither Matsushita nor Panasonic website searches yield anything on even "JU-257". Long obsolete, evidently. Thanks for your help. -Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From aek at spies.com Fri Sep 17 10:20:48 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. Message-ID: <20040917152048.CB1223FE8@spies.com> The ride home brought us right through rush-hour traffic on Chicago's loop (I-90/94) -- For future reference to people heading west from Wisconsin... DO NOT go through Chicago! Take I 43 down to I-90 east, then I-39 to I-88 (the old East-West Tollway) which connects to I-80 at the IL-IA boarder. --al (who's made the trip TOO many times) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 17 10:05:11 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Digital Alchemy - The Ultimate Emulator? In-Reply-To: <20040917151410.F0CAD39250@linux.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040917100231.03a2dc98@mail.30below.com> <20040917151410.F0CAD39250@linux.local> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917100404.0426be78@pc> At 09:27 AM 9/17/2004, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>Or DEC with their WinNT4 software that allowed DEC Alphas to run 32-bit >>Intel WinNT4 binaries. IIRC, it could be done "on the fly" (more overhead) >>or "precompiled" and saved back to the hard drive. Pity my memory sucks to >>the point I can't remember what it was called... >That stuff was called FX!32 ... I might be able to find a CD of WinNT for AXP with Fx32 on it, as well Visual C for AXP. I was a developer back in the day, but sold my machines on eBay a while back for next to nothing. One was a prototype Acer that never made it to market. - John From wacarder at usit.net Fri Sep 17 10:30:51 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <03b701c49cc7$e9028d20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <001001c49ccb$51145e40$5a120f14@mcothran1> Vince, Your analogy is quite good. I should have turned off my "who are you" and cookie when I decided to post the URL here on this list. Originally it was not intended to be a publicized site since it had some personal content on it. I just did the cookie thing as a convenience for my friends so they wouldn't have to log in and remember a password. The personal diary / recollection section is no longer a visible link on the site, so I don't really have the need to know who's visiting. Originally, if unknown persons were visiting the site, I was going to add a login / password, but that need never really occurred because the only unknown thing that ever visited my site was the web crawlers, and they couldn't crawl past the "who are you" page, so the site content was never indexed in the search engines beyond the "who are you" page. I'm a late 40s guy too. To be more precise, I'm 46, about halfway to 47. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Site Privacy issues > > I don't know, it just seems that it's people who either don't understand > > how web browsers and non-static sites work, or relative newbies to the > > Internet, seem to shout and rave about cookies "OMG, that site sent me a > > *cookie*! I'm being hacked! They're going to steal my credit card > > number and my pr0n stash!" > > I'm going to jump in here (hopefully briefly). I am not a fan of cookies, > and run with them turned off by default. I am also a user of cash, for many > of the same reasons. > > I'd like to draw an analogy between cookies and meatspace transactions. > > When I go into a a store to buy something, I like to whip out my cash, pay > for the item, and be on my way. I am not interested in forming a > "relationship" with the shipkeeper. Likewise, I like my web browsing to be > quick and anonymous, unless there is a good reason for the interaction to be > otherwise. > > To me, cookies are the web equivalent to those obnoxious shopper cards that > have been all the rage lately with store owners. Now when I go to buy > coffee at the store, the clerk asks if I have a store card, even though (or > especially because?) I am paying in cash. If I don't have one, (s)he > immediately offers me one. > > Why does (s)he do this? Is it because they want to identify repeat > customers, and offer them all kinds of discounts? No. That might be why > customers do it, but it isn't why stores do it. (S)he does this because the > store wants to de-anonymize the transaction. They want to track my buying > habits and offer customized advertising (not to me, to the advertisers!), in > the form of coupons on the back of the sales slip, junk mail, and (in the > case of Safeway and Amazon, at least) later when I browse the web. > > This is the real reason many sites want to place a cookie -- they want to > identify me, profile me, and offer me tailor made propoganda for a variety > of causes. This always sounds like a great idea to them. No thanks. > > I am also aware that transparent GIF images and other technologies replace > cookies, and are much more difficult to suppress. > > > Pretty much any site that does anything "cleverer" than serve up static > > pages is going to need some means by which the server can keep state - > > HTTP doesn't really have a mechanism for this, since the connection is > > closed once the page has been sent. Now, if you want the server to have > > some idea of where a given client has come from *within your own site*, > > you can either fake it with hidden form fields (not always possible, but > > worth a try), a big long identifier in the GET request (ugly, and prone > > to error), or use a cookie. It's not a fantastic way of doing it, but > > it's the "least worst" in the absence of properly stateful connections. > > The number of sites that need to do anything "cleverer" than serve static > pages is quite small. If I am actually going to do business with a web site > (and I do, with a few), then I will turn on cookies, etc. > > My especial peeve is with the sites that really are only serving static > pages, but want to place a cookie anyway. There is no good reason why I > should want them to do this. > > One of the assumptions that lurks behind this mindset is that, although our > needs converge on a particular interaction, it is important to remember that > others have their own interests at heart, not mine (rightly so), and that > their interests and mine will frequently be in conflict. > > To summarize, I think of cookies like those store cards, and refuse them for > a lot of the same reasons. > > > Just to give you some > > frame of reference, I am probably around the young-to-median point of > > the age range of this list (actually, what *is* the age range? It would > > be interesting to know) - old enough to remember the days before > > sub-?100 home computers, and *just* old enough to fondly remember > > Honeywell CP-6 at university. > > Late 40s, myself. Don't know, but from the small sample I have, that puts > me within a few years of a lot of others. > > Vince From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 17 08:52:35 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams In-Reply-To: <9e.14d192e3.2e7b3d91@aol.com> References: <9e.14d192e3.2e7b3d91@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917085100.05c5e0f0@pc> At 02:03 PM 9/16/2004, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: >A news story on the local TV told a story of a T Shirt company that got an >offer similar to purchase the 9000 T shirts and paid with two credit cards. One >went through but the other bounced and the owner of the business found out it >was fraud before he shipped it, overseas. A few months back, I received a few calls of the variation where they were using international TTY relay operators, pretending to be deaf. They wanted to order hundreds of hard drives. I made it clear to the operator that this was a scam. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 17 08:45:02 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917084242.05c58570@pc> At 02:58 AM 9/17/2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Now, if you want the server to have some idea of where a given client has come from *within your own site*, you can either fake it with hidden form fields (not always possible, but worth a try), a big long identifier in the GET request (ugly, and prone to error) And those big long GET/PUT make it much easier for a sniffer on your network (or along your path) to see your identifiers. :-) I was travelling a minor auction site the other day, and noticed that it was keeping state - including my password, in plaintext - in its stateful URL. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 17 06:56:31 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917065333.05c092b0@pc> At 01:21 AM 9/17/2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >We left here at 8am on Tuesday morning, picked up the Truck in Waukesa, >WI, around 12:15, and got to the place before 12:30, avoiding too much >bad traffic driving through Chicago a bit after morning rush hour. >The building the machines have been stored in for the last decade (or >more) is an old limestone building in downtown Waukesa, which according >to the guy who was trying to clear out the stuff used to be a brewery - >fitting for an old building near Milwaukee. : ) Argh! That's "Waukesha" - 35 minutes down a country road from me. You know, if you guys weren't so close-to-the-vest about rescues, you might be able to recruit free labor (free as in beer) from the locals if you notified the list. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 17 06:51:50 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion In-Reply-To: <414A44F1.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> <414A44F1.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917064714.05ae7328@pc> At 08:59 PM 9/16/2004, ben franchuk wrote: >Well for back then I would say , all was just as flakey. >The only thing pascal was 'is portable' ( barely ) on the >8 bit machines. [...] Of course. "Portable" is still a quite qualified word today. >Even if you get the PASCAL OS do you get the compiler source? I'd be very surprised if UCSD's licensing department has a copy of all the relevant software (every major and minor release for every platform in a vault). Even Ken Bowles cleaned out his office and tossed stuff. The better news is that the source for some releases was and is still available. It was always out there. That would let us rest knowing that at least some of the released bits were saved - but who knows what was lost. - John From aek at spies.com Fri Sep 17 10:30:53 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: <20040917153053.EA2493C92@spies.com> You dirty dog! I didn't know that you had a copy! Can I get a copy of it and the docs for it? -- the docs should be on bitsavers/intel I offered you DMK (or raw) images a year ago -- X-Sender: rigdonj@pop-server.cfl.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:24:55 To: Al Kossow From: Joe Subject: Re: Good News, Bad news In-Reply-To: <200308021514.h72FEdx6005359@spies.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20030802082807.515f2da4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-SpamBouncer: 1.6 beta (7/05/02) X-SBClass: OK X-Folder: Bulk Status: RO At 08:14 AM 8/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >they should be on sourceforge. >http://sourceforge.net/projects/dmklib/ > Thanks. Have you tried to use Teledisk on the iRMX disks? If not can you try it on one of them. If it works can you send or post the disk images where I can get them? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 10:41:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <20040917152048.CB1223FE8@spies.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> For future reference to people heading west from Wisconsin... >>> >>> DO NOT go through Chicago! >>> I may go through Minnesota or Iowa when heading west from Wisconsin....Going though Chicago to head west is just plain insane!!! From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 17 10:43:42 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion In-Reply-To: <414A44F1.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916142416.055d7318@pc> <4149EC85.5050605@ecubics.com> <414A44F1.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <414B062E.8050802@ecubics.com> ben franchuk wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> John Foust wrote: >> >>> http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm > > >> "Some in the UCSD crowd remain convinced that their software was >> technologically superior to Bill Gates's MS-DOS, and still mourn that >> outcome." >> >> so, please put it open source ... > > > Well for back then I would say , all was just as flakey. > The only thing pascal was 'is portable' ( barely ) on the > 8 bit machines. We had the whole developers kit at some time, and ported it to a mc68k. That was VERY easy, and I was really impressed with the performance and how easy it was to use (AFTER that I had my first experience with it on an apple;-)) Even the graphic part was nice (we had a bitmapped display on it). IIRC, the pcode interpreter had a 64k limit on data and code, but imageine what you can do with 64k of pcode ;-) And, imagine how easy it is to make a multi-user system, if you have enough memory, and could switch just the data/code segments ... cheers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 10:57:57 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <20040917153053.EA2493C92@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917115757.0093ee10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:30 AM 9/17/04 -0700, you wrote: > >You dirty dog! I didn't know that you had a copy! Can I get a copy of >it and the docs for it? > >-- > >the docs should be on bitsavers/intel >I offered you DMK (or raw) images a year ago I don't remember what it was but I remember trying to read some DMK images sometime back but there was some reason that I couldn't use them. I've never been able to get Teledisk to work! I'll go try the images again. Thanks, Joe > >-- > >X-Sender: rigdonj@pop-server.cfl.rr.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) >Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:24:55 >To: Al Kossow >From: Joe >Subject: Re: Good News, Bad news >In-Reply-To: <200308021514.h72FEdx6005359@spies.com> >References: <3.0.6.16.20030802082807.515f2da4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >X-SpamBouncer: 1.6 beta (7/05/02) >X-SBClass: OK >X-Folder: Bulk >Status: RO > >At 08:14 AM 8/2/03 -0700, you wrote: >>they should be on sourceforge. >>http://sourceforge.net/projects/dmklib/ >> > > Thanks. Have you tried to use Teledisk on the iRMX disks? If not can you >try it on one of them. If it works can you send or post the disk images >where I can get them? > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 11:09:43 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying to tell us something? Joe From cb at mythtech.net Fri Sep 17 11:14:05 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss >with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then >another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather >forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is >expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying >to tell us something? One of the reports I was reading claimed that this is supposed to be the norm for the Florida area, and that you have just been lucky for the last few decades and haven't really had as many storms as you should have. But then, who trusts anything the weather service has to say :-) -chris From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 17 11:19:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: <200409171619.JAA00076@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Joe Yes. It is telling you to leave Florida to the gators and bugs. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss >with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then >another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather >forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is >expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying >to tell us something? > > Joe > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 17 11:19:57 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <20040917152048.CB1223FE8@spies.com> References: <20040917152048.CB1223FE8@spies.com> Message-ID: <200409171119.57323.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 17 September 2004 10:20, Al Kossow wrote: > The ride home brought us right through > rush-hour traffic on Chicago's loop (I-90/94) > > -- > > For future reference to people heading west from Wisconsin... > > DO NOT go through Chicago! > > Take I 43 down to I-90 east, then I-39 to I-88 (the old East-West > Tollway) which connects to I-80 at the IL-IA boarder. Well, I'm in Indiana, east of Wisconsin, so I didn't have a whole lot of other choices. Also, since it was a rental vehicle, extra miles (like taking I-294) counted more than the extra time. Growing up around Chicago, I didn't find traffic that bad - though that might have been because I knew what I had just loaded into the back of my truck. I rather enjoyed that trip back... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 17 11:26:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917065333.05c092b0@pc> References: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20040917065333.05c092b0@pc> Message-ID: <200409171126.26085.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 17 September 2004 06:56, John Foust wrote: > At 01:21 AM 9/17/2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >We left here at 8am on Tuesday morning, picked up the Truck in > > Waukesa, WI, around 12:15, and got to the place before 12:30, > > avoiding too much bad traffic driving through Chicago a bit after > > morning rush hour. The building the machines have been stored in > > for the last decade (or more) is an old limestone building in > > downtown Waukesa, which according to the guy who was trying to > > clear out the stuff used to be a brewery - fitting for an old > > building near Milwaukee. : ) > > Argh! That's "Waukesha" - 35 minutes down a country road from me. > You know, if you guys weren't so close-to-the-vest about rescues, > you might be able to recruit free labor (free as in beer) from > the locals if you notified the list. You're right on the name, I managed to mistype it. I had a couple of people with me, and we had plenty of people to get the stuff loaded up actually. Fortunately the guy who had the stuff (Alan) had a forklift to lift the stuff up to the third story of the building where the loading dock is... the building is on/in the side of a steep hill, so the third floor is actually at ground level on the back side of the building. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 17 11:36:53 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss > with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then > another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather > forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is > expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying > to tell us something? > > Joe > Umm, "Move West"? g. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 11:37:31 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >>> Hurricane Jeanne >>> is expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. >>> Is somebody trying to tell us something? Perhaps that everyone should be getting ready for Karl????? >>> One of the reports I was reading claimed that this is >>> supposed to be the norm for the Florida area, and that >>> you have just been lucky for the last few decades and >>> haven't really had as many storms as you should have. 1953 to 2003 has been the lowest hurricane in recorded history. Granted the records get scetchy prior to the mid 1800's but the numbers have seen indicate that this year is NOT above a long term historical norm. The question is not so much is this year anomolus in terms of history, but rather the start of a long term trend [think of the impact on the economy down there if it is.....] David From cb at mythtech.net Fri Sep 17 11:40:43 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: >The >question is not so much is this year anomolus in terms of history, but >rather the start of a long term trend [think of the impact on the economy >down there if it is.....] Humm... you mean Disney might actually have to make Walt's EPCOT dream a reality and have a fully enclosed theme park? -chris From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 12:21:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> Humm... you mean Disney might actually have to make Walt's >>> EPCOT dream a reality and have a fully enclosed theme park? >>> Nearly anything that would spur the creation of a TRUE EPCOT [while the Disney/Florida one is a great experience, it has completely lost it's original intent] would be worth it [except for the loss of lives associated with the storms, of course].... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 12:15:30 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1095441330.20438.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-17 at 12:09 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss > with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then > another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather > forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is > expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying > to tell us something? It has to be a terrorist plot. Time for the War on Hurricanes? From MTPro at aol.com Fri Sep 17 12:26:40 2004 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Message-ID: <63D99576.0A7C1128.0000EF7A@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:40:43 -0400 From: chris << Humm... you mean Disney might actually have to make Walt's EPCOT dream a reality and have a fully enclosed theme park? >> In 1967, Walt Disney (after his death) presented on TV his original concept of what EPCOT (Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow) was to be and it in no way resembled what EPCOT is today. It was not to be a theme park, or more accurately a permanent World's Fair. Instead, it was actually a city with approximately 20,000 citizens. The central core/shopping/office district was to be inclosed by a dome, and the rest of the "city" extended away from it in a wagon wheel style of monorails and streets. I have this presentation on DVD from Disney's Treasures collection. For more, see: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA98/hogan/celebration/epcot.htm Best, David From cb at mythtech.net Fri Sep 17 12:43:03 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Message-ID: ><< Humm... you mean Disney might actually have to make Walt's EPCOT dream >a reality and have a fully enclosed theme park? >> > >In 1967, Walt Disney (after his death) presented on TV his original >concept of what EPCOT (Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow) was >to be and it in no way resembled what EPCOT is today. It was not to be a >theme park, or more accurately a permanent World's Fair. Instead, it was >actually a city with approximately 20,000 citizens. The central >core/shopping/office district was to be inclosed by a dome, and the rest >of the "city" extended away from it in a wagon wheel style of monorails >and streets. I have this presentation on DVD from Disney's Treasures >collection. > >For more, see: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA98/hogan/celebration/epcot.htm Yeah we learned all about this in Disney Brainwashing... er... um, "Traditions" (the intro to Disney class they put all the college interns thru). >From what I understood (last time I asked friends that still work for Disney, which was a while back), Celebration is (was?) a borderline cesspool of high crime and bad neighbors. So I guess that would make it a successful failure? -chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 17 13:11:55 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: Message-ID: <414B28EB.3000306@jetnet.ab.ca> chris wrote: > Humm... you mean Disney might actually have to make Walt's EPCOT dream a > reality and have a fully enclosed theme park? Why do I see a huge glass dome with MOUSE EARS? For some reason I just don't trust Disney any more as the company is too $%^! much like M$ now days. From cb at mythtech.net Fri Sep 17 13:22:05 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: >For some reason I just don't trust Disney any more as the >company is too $%^! much like M$ now days. I'm curious if that will change when Eisner leaves (2006, he formally announced he will be leaving when his contract expires). -chris From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Fri Sep 17 13:24:48 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne Message-ID: <040917142448.297c@splab.cas.neu.edu> I am in Port Charlotte with the American Red Cross and the damage around here is unbelievable. I went last weekend to visit the In-laws in Boca Raton on the east coast of Florida and there is quite a bit of damage there as well. Red Cross is scrambling for volunteers and is trying to shuffle equipment around. It is beyond comprehension for me on just how Red Cross can possibly keep up. Yes, Florida is getting slammed this year. Joe Heck From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Fri Sep 17 14:05:38 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <414B3582.2030803@cableone.net> Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote Joe R. wrote: > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss >with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then >another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather >forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is >expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying >to tell us something? > > Joe > > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:07:29 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: toking ring adaptor Message-ID: <26c11a6404091712074d2a6389@mail.gmail.com> I saw this on ebay if anyone is interested : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1486&item=5720438640 Dan From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 14:22:15 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <414B3582.2030803@cableone.net> Message-ID: >>> Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote Or DOES like the way they vote, and is using this to move them all to a location where their votes can be counted..... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 14:18:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917151853.008f4ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:22 PM 9/17/04 -0400, -chris wrote: >>For some reason I just don't trust Disney any more as the >>company is too $%^! much like M$ now days. > >I'm curious if that will change when Eisner leaves (2006, he formally >announced he will be leaving when his contract expires). I doubt it. They'll have to charge even more in order to fund Eisner's golden parachute. Re: Celebration. Yes it's quickly becoming a massive failuare. EVERY buyer there has to sign a non-disclosure agreement with Disney so they can't criticize Disney or Celebration or even talk about any problems there but it's quickly becoming common knowledge that it's flop. Many buyers are leaving Celebration without even selling their homes so you know something is seriously wrong. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 17 14:24:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <414B3582.2030803@cableone.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion is shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was actually a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. Joe At 02:05 PM 9/17/04 -0500, you wrote: >Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote > >Joe R. wrote: > >> Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss >>with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then >>another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather >>forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is >>expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying >>to tell us something? >> >> Joe >> >> >> > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 17 14:33:15 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: toking ring adaptor References: <26c11a6404091712074d2a6389@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16715.15355.170358.593878@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Subject: Re: toking ring adaptor ^^^^^^ Is that what you have to do to bring yourself to use such a network? :-) paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 17 14:43:21 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <414B3E59.4000107@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the > Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion is > shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was actually > a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. That would have been Ross Pierot. Doc From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Sep 17 14:53:14 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: BA356 SCSI Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> Just got an Emulex UC08 SCSI <--> QBus. Has the S handles on it and all I have is BA23. So, I'm waiting for drill to charge so I can drill out the 4 rivets that hold on the S handle stuff. Not having any experience with SCSI, I have a question. Could I use a BA356, with 8 bit personality module, with RZ29B-VW 4gb drives, with the UC08? From what I can find, the drives are 50 pin, wide SCSI, but I'm guessing that's what the personality module would handle. The UC08 has 2 HPDB50M connectors. It has 2 SCSI ports, typically one TMSCP, the other MSCP. If the BA356 and those drives should work, anyone know what the connector is on the BA356 going to the host adaptor? Ed K. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Fri Sep 17 14:54:55 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: toking ring adaptor In-Reply-To: <16715.15355.170358.593878@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <26c11a6404091712074d2a6389@mail.gmail.com> <16715.15355.170358.593878@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409171254.55677.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> On Friday 17 September 2004 12:33, Paul Koning wrote: > Subject: Re: toking ring adaptor > ^^^^^^ > Is that what you have to do to bring yourself to use such a network? But is it the One Tolkein Ring to rule them all, and in the frame room netbind them? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Sep 17 15:11:43 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: toking ring adaptor In-Reply-To: <200409171254.55677.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> But is it the One Tolkein Ring to rule them all, and in the >>> frame room netbind them? >>> Is this pun on topic....I think it actually has been well over ten years since I heard it. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 17 15:05:18 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: BA356 SCSI In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200409171305.18984.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Ed, If you need the docs for the UC08, let me know off list. Lyle On Friday 17 September 2004 12:53, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Just got an Emulex UC08 SCSI <--> QBus. > > Has the S handles on it and all I have is BA23. > So, I'm waiting for drill to charge so I can drill out the 4 rivets that > hold on the S handle stuff. > > Not having any experience with SCSI, I have a question. > > Could I use a BA356, with 8 bit personality module, with RZ29B-VW 4gb > drives, with the UC08? > > From what I can find, the drives are 50 pin, wide SCSI, but I'm guessing > that's what the personality module would handle. > > The UC08 has 2 HPDB50M connectors. > It has 2 SCSI ports, typically one TMSCP, the other MSCP. > > If the BA356 and those drives should work, anyone know what the connector > is on the BA356 going to the host adaptor? > > Ed K. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 17 15:17:31 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: BA356 SCSI In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> from "Ed Kelleher" at Sep 17, 2004 03:53:14 PM Message-ID: <200409172017.i8HKHWPj028404@onyx.spiritone.com> > Just got an Emulex UC08 SCSI <--> QBus. > > Has the S handles on it and all I have is BA23. > So, I'm waiting for drill to charge so I can drill out the 4 rivets that > hold on the S handle stuff. > > Not having any experience with SCSI, I have a question. > > Could I use a BA356, with 8 bit personality module, with RZ29B-VW 4gb > drives, with the UC08? > > From what I can find, the drives are 50 pin, wide SCSI, but I'm guessing > that's what the personality module would handle. > > The UC08 has 2 HPDB50M connectors. > It has 2 SCSI ports, typically one TMSCP, the other MSCP. > > If the BA356 and those drives should work, anyone know what the connector > is on the BA356 going to the host adaptor? It seems a bit of a waste to hook it up, but if you only have a narrow personality module anyway... As for if it will work, all I can really say is that it *should*. Having said that at one point I attempted to attach a BA353 or BA350 (don't remember which) to my PDP-11/73 using a Viking QDT controller, and was unable to get it to work. For some strange reason it didn't seem to like DEC SCSI HD's but likes IBM or Seagate SCSI drives (and the a DEC RRD-42 CD-ROM). BTW, the drives in the canisters should either be 68-pin or 80-pin (if 80-pin they're SCA drives). The 8-bit personality module knocks them down to 50-pin narrow. Best answer, try it and see what happens. What you don't want to mix is High Voltage Differential with either Single Ended or Low Voltage Differential. Zane From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 17 15:29:50 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414B493E.4000707@gjcp.net> David V. Corbin wrote: > > I disagree with the use of "properly" in the above. There are many > advantages to a stateless sitution [e.g. scability and state management]. > IMHO one of the serious problems out there are sites that impose state when > none is really required. It would be nice if there was a clean way to do it that didn't spook people the way that cookies seem to. It's funny that out of the many thousands of RFCs, none of them seem to describe such a thing. > > Without getting into the whole "browser discussion", IE 6.0 also allows > cookie selection on a site by site basis. Perchance not as completely as > FireFox (or others) but a vast improvement over previous versions. Yes, but I'd need to find a copy of Windows, and go through all the hassle of finding Windows drivers for my hardware, which may or may not be supported, and then figure out how to use it, and it all turns into a one massive $bodypart-ache. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 17 15:32:52 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Panasonic FDD number decode? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917104455.05ced010@mail.netsync.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917104455.05ced010@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <414B49F4.3050709@gjcp.net> Christian Fandt wrote: > Has anyone information on decoding the model number suffix on a > Panasonic 3.5" floppy drive? The number is JU-257-14PF. Ooh, now... There used to be two types of interface for 720k floppies, Shugart and "PC" (it may have a proper name). Old samplers and stuff quite often used the Shugart drives, in particular Casio and Ensoniq. Rainer Buchty's site http://www.buchty.net describes how you can make up an adaptor cable to use a PC 720k floppy in a Casio FZ-1. In theory it should work for Emaxes, Ensoniq kit and other machines that use the same connection. IIRC it's just a case of swapping a few wires around. This might not be what you need, or it might be exactly what you need. I haven't tried it myself. Let me know how you get on. Gordon. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Sep 17 15:38:42 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Nigerian scams References: <9e.14d192e3.2e7b3d91@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c49cf6$5e97a1a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Forget the Nigerians , the Russians are coming - had 2 emails from a Mr. Evans in Moscow along the lines of " so many million dollars in a bank account etc.". The funny thing is a lot of greedy stupid people actually believe this crap.I use mailwasher to bounce this garbage , and my spamcount has declined dramatically over the last few months. Geoff. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 17 16:20:06 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915141436.031ee178@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040915141436.031ee178@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1095456005.4187.34.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-15 at 11:16, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 05:00 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: > >When I was designing I/O boards for spaceborne computers I once saw > >what happens when most inputs are left floating on CMOS designs. This > >was a design full of (~30) 54HCxx ICs. > gak! 54xx IC's -- No wonder the space program cost so much! And running TTL off batteries! Ouch! From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 16:23:22 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... Message-ID: <13654625.1095456203222.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> at least it was CMOS versions of TTL logic... -----Original Message----- From: Tom Jennings Sent: Sep 17, 2004 5:20 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: 2114 Static RAMs... On Wed, 2004-09-15 at 11:16, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 05:00 PM 9/13/2004, you wrote: > >When I was designing I/O boards for spaceborne computers I once saw > >what happens when most inputs are left floating on CMOS designs. This > >was a design full of (~30) 54HCxx ICs. > gak! 54xx IC's -- No wonder the space program cost so much! And running TTL off batteries! Ouch! From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Sep 17 16:36:46 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: I will be happy to pass on the SW when I get to it, and to all also.. ISIS should run on the 330, too. The 330s origianlly were 8086 SBC with separate disk controllers for the HD and 8" Floppy. The 330 had a Priam 3450 *" HD (30 meg) and a DSDD 8" floppy and a 6 slot backplane. My 380 has a 286 SBC with a 14 slot backplane in one box and the HD, floppy and a tape drive in a second same size box.Twin 50 pin cables interconnect. The combo HD, Floppy and tape card is the 214 I think. There is usually a console port on the SBC. Other serial IO was on other cards. The hard drives have a manual parking lever. If it is not set do it immediatly. I would love to hear what the configuration of them is. The SBC board numbers had a slash number. 86/30, 286/10. The 320 is multibus II isn't it? A VME type connector (but not the same pin configuration). Paxton From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 17 16:36:53 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: Rotating memory data recovery In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040916144322.050b01e8@pc> References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1094952491.10126.55.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16709.49272.707000.807402@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20040913114556.0bf77058@pc> <1095282049.4218.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040916144322.050b01e8@pc> Message-ID: <1095457013.4187.47.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-09-16 at 12:43, John Foust wrote: > With platters, there are clean-room issues Not this thing! Or should I say, a clean, room, OK, but not a CLEANROOM. The memory is not sealed. The heads are on little lucite blocks held to the top of the memory with two screws. No gasket, even. The heads 'crash' on the nickel-plated-steel platter, and lift when up to speed. I assume dust just gets flung to one side centrifugally. The San Diego 'Computer Museum of America' has an LGP-21, it was apparently running when donated, and the disk surface on that thing looks AWFUL, all scratched-looking, but we're talking 60 - 80 bits per inch here, so as long as you don't score head windings in half it probably just makes a wee noise and moves bits. > as well as very > difficult alignnment issues - imagine how difficult it would > be to re-align a read head with the concentric bands on a > platter that may have been slightly misaligned from its > original hub, especially at contemporary densities. Contemporary densities being readable with the naked eye... :-) I assume you are otherwise correct, the track is likely very narrow, and hard to hit when a head is replaced. I think the manual actually tells the recorded track width though. I realize I haven't put up detailed photos of the innards of this thing (like the memory details), I will do so in the next week. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 17 16:38:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: 2114 Static RAMs... In-Reply-To: <13654625.1095456203222.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <13654625.1095456203222.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1095457123.4187.51.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-17 at 14:23, Steve Thatcher wrote: > at least it was CMOS versions of TTL logic... Oh sorry, saw "54xx", missed the "HC" part... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 17 16:58:26 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: BA356 SCSI In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <39190.192.168.0.11.1095458306.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Could I use a BA356, with 8 bit personality module, with RZ29B-VW 4gb > drives, with the UC08? In theory, yes. The RZ29s will dumb down to narrow. > From what I can find, the drives are 50 pin, wide SCSI, but I'm guessing > that's what the personality module would handle. Yep. It doesn't matter what the drives themselves are because the SBB (canister) they live in presents a consistent connector to the outside world, also the BA35x never got faster than 16bit SCSI - the shelves that lived in RaidArrays were BA37x IIRC. > If the BA356 and those drives should work, anyone know what the connector > is on the BA356 going to the host adaptor? The 8 bit personality module (BA35X-MG I think) has 2 50 pin Honda connectors on, same as the stock BA350. Off the top of my head I can't remember the DEC part number for the cable.....BC09J-xx perhaps? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From stuart at zen.co.uk Fri Sep 17 17:09:26 2004 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: still looking, and stuff to go UK References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> <39190.192.168.0.11.1095458306.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Hi everyone, First up, would anyone like any of these bits: Tandy CoCo3 Sinclair Z88 spares or repair - suspect minor repair needed An assortment of oddball 80s handheld lcd and led games RM480Z I'm on the lookout for the following as well: ACT Sirius hardware Localtalk to ethernet bridge ASR33 teletype Thanks! Stu From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Fri Sep 17 17:24:06 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:15 2005 Subject: toking ring adaptor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409171524.06197.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> On Friday 17 September 2004 13:11, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> But is it the One Tolkein Ring to rule them all, and in the > >>> frame room netbind them? > > Is this pun on topic....I think it actually has been well over ten > years since I heard it. Damn. And here I thought I was being original. Ah well, twisted minds think alike, eh? :P From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 17 18:27:20 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BC11Y-05? Message-ID: <200409172327.i8HNRKlw030681@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi all I could use a short Unibus connector cable. I have one which is about 20' long and I have one which is about 2.5' long. I need one about 5' long. I think that's a BC11Y-05. Basically to go between two unibus boxes sitting next to each other on the floor :-) Anyone have one they don't need? (this is the wide "white" cable with a dual-height connector on each end) -brad From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 18:33:20 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: still looking, and stuff to go UK In-Reply-To: <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> <39190.192.168.0.11.1095458306.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640409171633d660b24@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:09:26 +0100, Stuart Birchall wrote: > Hi everyone, > > First up, would anyone like any of these bits: > > Tandy CoCo3 > Sinclair Z88 spares or repair - suspect minor repair needed > An assortment of oddball 80s handheld lcd and led games > RM480Z > > I'm on the lookout for the following as well: > > ACT Sirius hardware > Localtalk to ethernet bridge > ASR33 teletype > > Thanks! > > Stu > I would love the 480z,I have just got a 380z network server (thinking I could use it as a normal 380z if you read the thread) and I need a 480z to complete the package.. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 18:56:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) Message-ID: Still tinkering with that Acorn Cambridge.... Firstly some background... As Beeb owners will know, the BBC micro had 5 header plugs on the front edge of the main PCB, which were accessible under the machine. They were : Floppy Disk (34 pin, standard Shugart pinout) Printer (26 pin. This is one port of a 6522, buffered, and used to connector a Centronics printer) USer port (20 pin, the other port of that 6522) 1MHz Bus (34 pin. This is a system bus, 8 address lines, 8 data lines, R/W, Phi2 clock, address decoder outputs, etc) Tube (40 pin. Also a system bus, used for the second processors) On the Camdbridge, the floppy and Tube ports are not brought out. There's a floppy drive built-in, and the Tube links to the 32016 second processor board. The other 3 connectoes are linked to connectors on the rear panel -- DB25 for the user port, DC37 for the 1MHz bus (yes it's used internally for the SCSI controller too), 24 pin Blue Ribbon for the printer port. Now, one of the things I need to do is make up addapters from those connector back to header plugs so I can connect normal Beeb add-ons to the Cambridge. At leat for the User port and 1MHz bus. If the printer port was only ever used to link to printers, then I can make a cable from the 24 pin Blue Ribbon to a 36 pin Blue Ribbon (to fit a Centronics printer socket). But if someone used the printer port for something else (say as a set of outputs to control something, since it's buffered the data lines are output-only), I suppose I'd better make an adapter back to a 26 pin header. So has anyone ever heard of the Beeb printer port being used for something other than a parallel printer? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 18:38:02 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Panasonic FDD number decode? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040917104455.05ced010@mail.netsync.net> from "Christian Fandt" at Sep 17, 4 11:14:17 am Message-ID: > > Has anyone information on decoding the model number suffix on a Panasonic > 3.5" floppy drive? The number is JU-257-14PF. > > I was told it was a 720K drive when I bought it some time ago but it seems > to act like a 1.44MB unit. Need to confirm as I want a 720K for an > industrial OS-9/68K system I'm thinking of dragging out of storage. > Controller only talks 720K. Controllers in PC's use connector pin two, > IIRC, to select lo/hi density. Is my drive selectable by internal jumpers On an HD 3.5" drive the only difference between HD and DD operation (IIRC) is the write current (higher for the higher coercivity HD media). The motor speed, head position, etc are the same in both cases. Maybe the read amplifier gets tweaked too.. Most drives that I've seen use the HD-holr-detect switch to set the write current. They _may_ also tell the contorller what sort of disk it is installed (in other words the disk-type signal is likely to be an output from the drive). And therefore most HD 3.5" drives work find as DD (720K) ones if given DD media. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 18:47:15 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: still looking, and stuff to go UK In-Reply-To: <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> from "Stuart Birchall" at Sep 17, 4 11:09:26 pm Message-ID: > > Hi everyone, > > First up, would anyone like any of these bits: Where are you? Not that I particularly want any of it, but I'm sure somebody does... > > Tandy CoCo3 > Sinclair Z88 spares or repair - suspect minor repair needed > An assortment of oddball 80s handheld lcd and led games > RM480Z > > I'm on the lookout for the following as well: > > ACT Sirius hardware I ahve a reverse-engineered schematic of the Sirius, which reveals a few interesting things (like the user port, the sound _input_ connector, the 'GPIN' port and so on). Maybe I should copy it for you... -tony From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Sep 17 20:57:21 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > "absurdum", if my grasp of Latin isn't quite as rusty as I fear it may be. > Just read the def. > I don't know, it just seems that it's people who either don't understand how > web browsers and non-static sites work, or relative newbies to the Internet, > seem to shout and rave about cookies "OMG, that site sent me a *cookie*! I'm > being hacked! They're going to steal my credit card number and my pr0n > stash!" What irked me (and still irks me) about your post, was *not* your feelings towards my admittedly paranoid view anent intrusions on my personal computers - no, what pissed me off was that I was ready to learn from you and honor your knowledge - I was thinking that rather than engage in jejune absurdities, you'd have taken the time and space to help me out a bit - show me that perhaps I'm over-reacting - tell me why I oughta let the little cookies live on my machines. Instead, you very heavily patronized *myself* with your adolescent screed of more-and-more ridiculous questions... "do I remove the battery at night and re-set the BIOS every morning" indeed! So if you're going to join this list and then demean folks you've not met or seem to know little about - I would think that occasionaly you're going to get called out over it. I have had this IBM Thinkpad for about five years now, and got it while I still lived and working in Southern India. I have a firewall, a virus-checker, a spyware checker, and I disallow active-X, Java, Flash, Coookies (unless I can't get business done w/out them)etc. To date I have had one 'infection'; the Welchia Worm. And I got that during a network setup sesson at my employer's - I had to shutdown my firewall to synchronize permissions and set up various clients, someone else on the network was infected and I got it. Noticing that my port was communicating at nearly it's capacity and my computer was getting slow, I scnned it and killed the bug. And that has been the only problem I've had to deal with in five years. Thus am I being: Paranoid? Careful? Absurd? You tell me, Gordon. Just keep the sarcasm and grandiose flights of superiority to yourself, please. Cheers John From shirker at mooli.org.uk Sat Sep 18 14:16:11 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: IBM Book (VSE/ESA Performance Management and Fine Tuning) - anyone want? Message-ID: I found this in a book sale at a local organisation, and rescued it in case anyone's interested. If you want it, you get to pay me the 50 English pence it cost me, plus shipping from UK. It's by Bill Merrow, pub. McGraw Hill, (C) 1993. Has a flash "Includes VSE/ESA Version 1.3" on the cover. Ed. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Sep 18 14:19:42 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP Laser Jet series II Message-ID: <414C8A4E.6060109@cableone.net> Well, with the help from members of this list I finally got one Series II running and one not tested but saved back and two that were FUBAR. So, because I cannot bear to throw anything away all at once, kind of like the story of the three legged pig, i decided to scavenge what I could of the two Series II before pitching them. I just pitched the Series I, the 3, and the 4. I saved anything that had a wire connected to it and put all the plastic, sheet metal and gear trains into the trash on the theory that the gear trains looked tough enough to not be a failure point. I saved about half the weight and half the storage space. The fuser bulbs looked to be in good shape so I don't think they were the cause of the "50 Service" error I was getting. At least the filaments were not broken. I am assuming that this is like a halogen bulb and you don't want to touch the glass surface of the bulb. Is there a recommended cleaning procedure??? Too bad the fans are 24 volt not 115 volt. I could have used some 115 volt fans for my Kilowatt Linear I am building. Are there any parts I missed? Are there some parts I should have dumped? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 18 12:04:37 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: QBus chassis and backplanes Message-ID: <10409181804.ZM29808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> In view of the recent discussion about which backplane(s) go with which CPU(s) and some similar discussion on alt.sys.pdp11, I've collected together some of my data on backplanes and chassis. They're in a text file at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis If anyone wishes to add to that, feel free to send me information :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 11:29:08 2004 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: [Posibly OT?] Tek 321A scope needs help.... Message-ID: Hello all, I recently became the new owner of a Tek 321A scope, but it needs some repairs. Also, I have no manuals, so if anyone could loan me an operator's manual or service manual so I could make a copy, I'd appreciate it.... The main issue is the display. There is what I can only describe as a "cloud" that runs vertically along the center of the display. Varying the intensity and focus does vary this cloud, but it is still present. Also, the trace line is visible, but very out of focus. Wider at the edges, and narrower in the middle. I can take a picture if this makes no sense... I don't know the working condition of the scope, but it was put in a large bin for disposal. It's possible that it was just tosseed in, so it may have been banged around a bit. It seems a shame to toss this unit, as it is in pristine physical condition. The battery holders are very clean, and the unit has no dust or dirt that I can see.... If this is a common problem, or if it seems fixable, let me know what to try.... Rich B. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 18 17:03:57 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 help needed. Message-ID: <200409181703.58305.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I've got power run now, and am trying to get the machine up and running. After I figured out what baud rate it wanted (and reset it down to 1200 baud from 1800 baud), I've been trying to figure out a problem... So, when I connect a terminal to the console port, all I can get is an address: 173002, followed by an "@" (the ODT prompt). Trying to examine the addresses using ODT fails. So, it looks like the bootstrap PROMs are not accessible for some reason. From what I see, it appears that they are actually contained on the CIB (Console Interface Board) in the KA780 CPU. Can anyone verify this, or have any suggestions what I should check? The power supply bricks all have their "POWER NORMAL" lighs on, and seemed to have a good 5V output from testing with a dummy load and DMM. Any ideas? I'm a bit stuck here. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From acme at gbronline.com Sat Sep 18 16:45:51 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008701c49dc8$de851460$5b4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." > Damm! We took a direct hit with hurricane Charlie. Then a NEAR miss > with hurricane Frances. (It took 4 1/2 > DAYS < to pass through!) Then > another narrow miss with hurricane Ivan. I just looked at the weather > forecast and now there's another one headed this way! Hurricane Jeanne is > expected to hit the east coast of Florida around Monday. Is somebody trying > to tell us something? Yes, and to me the message is very clear: Glen, leave Florida. Glen 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sat Sep 18 16:43:48 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Teledisk References: <3.0.6.32.20040917115757.0093ee10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008001c49dc8$9537d220$5b4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." > I've never been able to get Teledisk to work! I'll go try the images again. Joe, I don't understand this. Teledisk has worked perfectly for me on numerous systems. Maybe I should drop by your place sometime with some known-good images and see if we can find out what the problem is. Let me know. Glen 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sat Sep 18 16:57:06 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1095441330.20438.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00de01c49dca$71093540$5b4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" > It has to be a terrorist plot. Time for the War on Hurricanes? It IS a terrorist plot. Unfortunately, they are targeting the wrong Bush (for the unaware, Jeb Bush, George W.'s brother, is Governor of Florida). Glen 0/0 From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Sep 18 16:17:38 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... Message-ID: <414CA5F2.80103@cableone.net> As I stated earlier, I have cannibalized three HP laserjet series II printers. In looking over the parts recovered I find that I have three (3) totally different memory boards. The first is populated with small chips on BOTH sides of the board with a total of 128 soldered in chips that appear from their part numbers to be 256K memory chips, That is the number 256 appears within the part number. Now I don't know how wide the buss is but I am assuming 8 bits because of its age. If so this board is a 4 Megabyte memory board. The second is only half populated with 16 soldered in chips on one side that have the number 1000 in their part number so I am assuming they are 1meg chips and using the afore mentioned logic I come up with a 2Megabyte memory board. The third is fully populated with 32 socketed chips with the number 1000 in their part number and that works out to a 4 Megabyte memory board. Is my logic sound? Do I have two 4 meg boards and a 2 meg board? What is the largest memory board the Series 2 could hold? I am assuming that the socketed memory is best because it is easily repaired, but are there any problems with the socketed memory having bad contacts after time? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 18 15:58:11 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <004301c49dc2$3541af90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Latin and patronising remarks about teenagers. Just to give you some > frame of reference, I am probably around the young-to-median point of > the age range of this list (actually, what *is* the age > range? It would be interesting to know) I would have thought it would be essential to know that information in order to decide whether you are in the the young-to-median part of the curve :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 18 00:02:30 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question Message-ID: Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 18 00:01:06 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: RSTS strange problem Message-ID: Ok, I have repeated it again... and typed out all the files before I rebooted - they disappeared again. I ran option:RES Clean then booted again. They were still gone. It's funny that all the files I touched disappeared.. Perhaps this is a clue... What is SY0: as contrast to SY: and DL0: (all the same drive?) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 17 23:39:45 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Once more into the bins In-Reply-To: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040917204731.00a90810@pop-server.socal.rr.com> List forgive me, its been two months since I had anything good to confess ... I finally had some time to spend at a couple of scrap places I like, and it was both good and bad. First place is a huge nationwide scrap company with offices in three or four states, GoldenWest, and in the past a place where I have seen a lot of decent old iron. Its the place I posted to the list a few months ago that had the batch tape drives and HP minis. They now have a full time ebay guy and it looks like the stream of older stuff now goes straight to scrap without public access. Second place is much smaller, couple industrial units that are packed to the top with pallets, taken out and spread all around outside every morning to sort, and packed back in each night. This one was good for a couple hours of head down in the bins time, but not much in the "classic" 10+ years old category except for a couple old mac bits (some 9 pin localtalk adapters, a mac plus numeric keyboard, and some odd bits like big 5 pin original PC to ps/2 keyboard adapters and extension cables). There were about 5 gaylords (pallet sized cardboard boxes) of misc circuit boards, and 4,000 small punctures to my fingers later I had a nice pile of video, network, scsi, and ide cards. Nothing fancy, but a couple nice PCI video cards for older macs, typical Adaptec 2940, ata66 and ata133 cards, and quite interesting a handfull of Ati 10/100bt combo fiber cards with various fiber connections. I do have a question about one card I saw, but unfortunately missed. A Nubus card that was full length, but populated sparsely with nothing but 14 to 20 pin dips, Apple branded (sorry didn't write down the number, actually sorrier I didn't just grab it while it was on top of the heap) and labeled Bus Master or mastering maybe. OK, not too exciting or classic, but like I said its been a nasty dry spell. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 18 15:39:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Classiccmp website? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040918163939.008f8d90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what has happened to the Classiccmp website? I checked some of my webpages there yesterday and the files are still there but most of them are now blank! The files are NOT missing and they still have the right file size but they're blank. I just tried to access the site a few minutes agoo but now I can't even get a connection to it. I e-mailed Jay yesterday and asked him about the problems but haven't gotten a reply. Joe From dave at naffnet.org.uk Sat Sep 18 02:50:25 2004 From: dave at naffnet.org.uk (Dave Woodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414BE8C1.90606@naffnet.org.uk> Tony Duell wrote: [ ... ] >So has anyone ever heard of the Beeb printer port being used for >something other than a parallel printer? > When I was a student we used to have BBCs driving lathes, through, I seem to recall, the printer port. The software used had a lathe simulator that let you check your sequence (thus saving expensive cutting tool costs) before performing a real run. It is so long ago that only the letters CNC remained in the bucket - enough, though, to find this http://www.pilotltd.net/lathe.htm Cheers, Dave. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 18 02:25:05 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: 2.88 floppies In-Reply-To: <41430362.20481.407B61@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040830133604.03b76460@mail.30below.com> <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040918001226.00a7f990@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Apparently Intel has the trusty old floppy scheduled for the chopping block, so naturally I am more interested in them than ever. Part of my purchase today was a pair of Panasonic LKM-F394-1 floppy drives, (Gateway branded LS-120), which I was kind of assuming would at least "read" a 2.88 floppy, but from what I have read it looks like I am wrong. Is it just the Fujitsu Flopticals that will read 2.88 outside of an actual 2.88 floppy drive? Also I know the list talked about it a little, but does anybody know how these USB floppy drives actually work? I saw a snippet in a dogpile search from a page I couldn't download anymore (halfbaked.com) that suggested a fairly raw signal is passed via the USB with the processing done by the host PC cpu. That would suggest a lot of modification possibilities wouldn't it? From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Sep 17 22:02:33 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Any Honeywell fans? References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040916123820.059e9960@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: <001a01c49d2b$f1f1b280$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Dan we would be extremely interested in this material on Honeywell, as they had their plant here in Arizona. this would be a great addition to the museums collection here. any GE stuff is great too! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Veeneman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 9:45 AM Subject: Any Honeywell fans? > At a recent hamfest I picked up two sets of > what appears to be Honeywell training material. > Each set consists of a slide projector tray, > cassette tapes, and a manual all in a > fold-open case. > > The first set is labeled "Digital Computers > and Software" and is dated 1979. It has > 80 slides in the tray and comes with two > cassette tapes and a booklet. > > The second set is labeled "Delta 1000 > Control Interpreter Language" and is dated > 1980. There are 46 slides in the tray and > there is one cassette tape, along with > a booklet. > > All of this stuff is marked "Honeywell > Proprietary." > > I'm generally much more interested in HP stuff, > but this looked unusual enough to pick up. > > Contact me off-list if you'd like more information. > > > Cheers, > > Dan > www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html > > > From gtoal at gtoal.com Sat Sep 18 20:15:41 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <200409190044.i8J0eqnJ001366@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409190044.i8J0eqnJ001366@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <414CDDBD.mailG7B11IT1U@gtoal.com> The only thing I remember the printer port being used for was some cheap-assed eprom burner, and a weird 9000Hz sound sampler. Usually manufacturers had the sense to use the 1 Mhz bus. I really wouldn't go to much effort to bring it off-board in your ACW. I doubt you'll ever get a chance to use it. By the way I'm borrowing Joe Rigdon's US Beeb so I can recover the code on my BBC 5.25" floppies, which is where the sideways RAM loading code you were looking for is stored. Unfortunately I did't have any copies of it on the Archie disks (which had been easier to restore). My experiments with fitting a 5.25 drive to a PC and reading the files that way were a complete disaster. The first attempt scored gashes in some floppies until I noticed, then after buying an identical (but working) drive on eBay to replace the bad one, I found that the code I had to read the disks just plain did not work reliably. I tried several PCs, including old ones, knowing the problems with incompatible disk chips. I was also unable to get the disks working under any Beeb emulators. (Unlike with the Archie emulators which worked a treat with 3.5 disks!) Once I get the US Beeb and can read the disks native, does anyone have any good suggestions on how to read and transfer disk images to Unix over a serial line? Remembering that I'll have to bootstrap any process by typing the code in to the Beeb. I guess I should start wiring up a Beeb<->PC serial line right now! G From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 18 20:36:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: 2.8 floppies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040918001226.00a7f990@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040830133604.03b76460@mail.30below.com> <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20040918001226.00a7f990@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040918182826.D63346@shell.lmi.net> A 2.8M (80 * 2 * 36 * 512 is NOT 2.88 for any meaningful definition of M) floppy drive can also read and write 1.4M. An LS120 can also read and write 1.4M A floptical can also read and write 1.4M. A 2.8M can not read or write LS120, or floptical. An LS120 can not read or write 2.8M, or floptical. A floptical can not read or write LS120, or 2.8M. On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Mike Ford wrote: > Apparently Intel has the trusty old floppy scheduled for the chopping > block, so naturally I am more interested in them than ever. > > Part of my purchase today was a pair of Panasonic LKM-F394-1 floppy drives, > (Gateway branded LS-120), which I was kind of assuming would at least > "read" a 2.88 floppy, but from what I have read it looks like I am wrong. > Is it just the Fujitsu Flopticals that will read 2.88 outside of an actual > 2.88 floppy drive? What model? none of the flopticals that I have, or have ever used, can read or write 2.8M Such a combination drive is certainly POSSIBLE, but I was never able to find any being made. > Also I know the list talked about it a little, but does anybody know how > these USB floppy drives actually work? I saw a snippet in a dogpile search > from a page I couldn't download anymore (halfbaked.com) that suggested a > fairly raw signal is passed via the USB with the processing done by the > host PC cpu. That would suggest a lot of modification possibilities wouldn't it? From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Sep 18 20:52:31 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <414CA5F2.80103@cableone.net> References: <414CA5F2.80103@cableone.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040918184957.03a6e348@mail.zipcon.net> At 02:17 PM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >As I stated earlier, I have cannibalized three HP laserjet series II >printers. In looking over the parts recovered I find that I have three >(3) totally different memory boards. > >The first is populated with small chips on BOTH sides of the board with a >total of 128 soldered in chips that appear from their part numbers to be >256K memory chips, That is the number 256 appears within the part >number. Now I don't know how wide the buss is but I am assuming 8 bits >because of its age. If so this board is a 4 Megabyte memory board. um, that sounds probable... >The second is only half populated with 16 soldered in chips on one side >that have the number 1000 in their part number so I am assuming they are >1meg chips and using the afore mentioned logic I come up with a >2Megabyte memory board. yes, that's a 2meg board using 1 megabit chips >The third is fully populated with 32 socketed chips with the number 1000 >in their part number and that works out to a 4 Megabyte memory board. yes, that is a 4 meg board. >Is my logic sound? > >Do I have two 4 meg boards and a 2 meg board? > >What is the largest memory board the Series 2 could hold? 4 megabyte >I am assuming that the socketed memory is best because it is easily >repaired, but are there any problems with the socketed memory having bad >contacts after time? the biggest problem I've had with laserjet boards is the PALs and GALs they used on some boards (HP and aftermarket) for addressing failing over time :( From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Sep 18 21:01:03 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 help needed. In-Reply-To: <200409181703.58305.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040918205729.022dfea0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Pat, It has been too long for me to remember the specifics of the 780 LSI console, but I do know that you will need a boot floppy -- did you get one with it? I'm also pretty sure that there is at least one person on this list which has a 780, but I don't recall if they have it working or not... You should be able to determine how much memory is in the console LSI by examining the cards and then you should be able to modify that memory and run hand loaded programs in it. Once you know the LSI is functioning properly, you should be able to run diagnostics on both the LSI and the VAX from the console LSI, assuming you have those floppies too. --tom At 05:03 PM 9/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: >So, I've got power run now, and am trying to get the machine up and >running. After I figured out what baud rate it wanted (and reset it >down to 1200 baud from 1800 baud), I've been trying to figure out a >problem... > >So, when I connect a terminal to the console port, all I can get is an >address: 173002, followed by an "@" (the ODT prompt). Trying to examine >the addresses using ODT fails. So, it looks like the bootstrap PROMs >are not accessible for some reason. From what I see, it appears that >they are actually contained on the CIB (Console Interface Board) in the >KA780 CPU. > >Can anyone verify this, or have any suggestions what I should check? The >power supply bricks all have their "POWER NORMAL" lighs on, and seemed >to have a good 5V output from testing with a dummy load and DMM. > >Any ideas? I'm a bit stuck here. > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Sat Sep 18 19:11:26 2004 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: classiccmp server problems Message-ID: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> Yup, the drive is pretty much toast. No telling how long it's going to stay up this time. I'm headed back home from the datacenter to start copying stuff off the drive. Loosely translated, anyone who wants to chip in for a new hard drive for the classiccmp server, let me know. If the servr is down, I can be reached at jwest@ezwind.net Thanks. Jay From wacarder at usit.net Sat Sep 18 21:16:57 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: classiccmp server problems In-Reply-To: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: What kind of drive do you want to get? How big (gigabytes), etc. Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 8:11 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: classiccmp server problems > > > > Yup, the drive is pretty much toast. No telling how long it's going to > stay up this time. I'm headed back home from the datacenter to start > copying stuff off the drive. > > Loosely translated, anyone who wants to chip in for a new hard drive > for the classiccmp server, let me know. If the servr is down, > I can be reached at jwest@ezwind.net > > Thanks. > > Jay > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 18 23:53:46 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: classiccmp server problems In-Reply-To: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <414D10DA.7080603@mdrconsult.com> Dunno if the server's up or down, but this is offlist. I can kick $20, and a little more Monday if nobody else steps up. Where do I paypal, or do you want a money order? Doc Jay West wrote: > Yup, the drive is pretty much toast. No telling how long it's going to > stay up this time. I'm headed back home from the datacenter to start > copying stuff off the drive. > > Loosely translated, anyone who wants to chip in for a new hard drive > for the classiccmp server, let me know. If the servr is down, > I can be reached at jwest@ezwind.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 18 23:38:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP Laser Jet series II In-Reply-To: <414C8A4E.6060109@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 18, 4 02:19:42 pm Message-ID: > > Well, with the help from members of this list I finally got one Series > II running and one not tested but saved back and two that were FUBAR. > So, because I cannot bear to throw anything away all at once, kind of > like the story of the three legged pig, i decided to scavenge what I > could of the two Series II before pitching them. I just pitched the > Series I, the 3, and the 4. Well, you certainly should have kept some parts from the series 1 -- they're getting very hard to find (heck, even toner cartridges for the CX are getting hard to find) and there are machines that depend on them. In particular, the DC controller board, scanner assembly, fuser parts, etc. And amny of the parts in the 3 are the same as in the 2 (SX engine). So if you stipped the 2's, you should probably have done the same with the 3 > > I saved anything that had a wire connected to it and put all the > plastic, sheet metal and gear trains into the trash on the theory that > the gear trains looked tough enough to not be a failure point. I saved The mechanical side is solid on these machines. The only common mechancial failure points are the pickup rollers and the fuser roller. The former fails to grip the paper, the latter gets scored. Oh, sometimes geats in the fuser shed their teeth... However, mechanical parts tend to be available and cheap-ish. Unlike electronic parts where you can only get complete PCBs officially. So you should save the electronics first. > about half the weight and half the storage space. > > The fuser bulbs looked to be in good shape so I don't think they were > the cause of the "50 Service" error I was getting. At least the > filaments were not broken. I am assuming that this is like a halogen > bulb and you don't want to touch the glass surface of the bulb. Yes. It _is_ a halogen bulb. > > Is there a recommended cleaning procedure??? For the bubl? Clean it with propan-2-ol. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 18 23:40:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: [Posibly OT?] Tek 321A scope needs help.... In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Sep 18, 4 12:29:08 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > I recently became the new owner of a Tek 321A scope, but it needs some > repairs. Also, I have no manuals, so if anyone could loan me an operator's > manual or service manual so I could make a copy, I'd appreciate it.... > > The main issue is the display. There is what I can only describe as a > "cloud" that runs vertically along the center of the display. Varying the > intensity and focus does vary this cloud, but it is still present. Also, > the trace line is visible, but very out of focus. Wider at the edges, and > narrower in the middle. I can take a picture if this makes no sense... Well, it _could_ be the CRT (displaced electrodes or interelectrode shorts) :-(, but I'd start by checking CRT electrode voltages. On some Teks there are various geometery/sheild electrodes, and it may be that you've lost the voltage on one of them. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 18 23:59:37 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: classiccmp server problems In-Reply-To: <414D10DA.7080603@mdrconsult.com> References: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> <414D10DA.7080603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <414D1239.1020202@mdrconsult.com> so much for offlist. :( Migraines suck. Doc Shipley wrote: > Dunno if the server's up or down, but this is offlist. I can kick > $20, and a little more Monday if nobody else steps up. Where do I > paypal, or do you want a money order? > > > Doc > > Jay West wrote: > >> Yup, the drive is pretty much toast. No telling how long it's going to >> stay up this time. I'm headed back home from the datacenter to start >> copying stuff off the drive. >> >> Loosely translated, anyone who wants to chip in for a new hard drive >> for the classiccmp server, let me know. If the servr is down, >> I can be reached at jwest@ezwind.net > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 18 23:44:43 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <414CA5F2.80103@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 18, 4 04:17:38 pm Message-ID: > > As I stated earlier, I have cannibalized three HP laserjet series II > printers. In looking over the parts recovered I find that I have three > (3) totally different memory boards. > > The first is populated with small chips on BOTH sides of the board with > a total of 128 soldered in chips that appear from their part numbers to > be 256K memory chips, That is the number 256 appears within the part > number. Now I don't know how wide the buss is but I am assuming 8 bits > because of its age. If so this board is a 4 Megabyte memory board. The bus width doesn't matter in determining the memory size. If you had 16 1 megabit memory chips arranged as 2 megs * 8 bits, that a 2 megabyte board. If you had them arrangeded as 1 meg * 16 bits, that's still a 2 megabyte board. The Series 2 formatters use a 68000 processor (the 64 pin chip on the formatter board) and thus have a 16 bit wide databus. -tony From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Sep 18 23:57:05 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Yet another e-mail virus forged my address on an e-mail to his address, and it bounced to me with something like "mailbox full". Which made me think, I haven't seen anything from him since 10 August or so, and while I've never met him I think he's an old-timer.... A Google search on 'Maslin "San Diego"' found which says: DONALD A. MASLIN Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego Computer Society. Survivors include his wife, Bristol; and sister, Margaret Stadtler of Versailles, Ky. No services were planned. A scattering of ashes was planned. Arrangements: Telophase Cremation Society. (end quote) -Frank McConnell From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 19 00:26:16 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Sep 18, 4 09:57:05 pm" Message-ID: <200409190526.WAA14972@floodgap.com> > Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New > Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the > Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego > Computer Society. That's a sincere loss. I met Don several times in San Diego, and found him a charming gentleman. I wish all the best to his family. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 00:02:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <414CDDBD.mailG7B11IT1U@gtoal.com> from "Graham Toal" at Sep 18, 4 08:15:41 pm Message-ID: > > The only thing I remember the printer port being used for was some cheap-assed > eprom burner, and a weird 9000Hz sound sampler. Usually manufacturers had the > sense to use the 1 Mhz bus. I am suprised a sound sampler used the printer port -- there's only 2 bit of input (the ACK line). Why not use the user port? > > I really wouldn't go to much effort to bring it off-board in your ACW. I > doubt you'll ever get a chance to use it. It's brought off-board. It's linked to a 24 pin Blue Ribbon connector (looks like a GPIB connecotr, but isn't the same wiring, of course) on the back. I will certainly make a cable to link it to a printer... > > By the way I'm borrowing Joe Rigdon's US Beeb so I can recover the code > on my BBC 5.25" floppies, which is where the sideways RAM loading code > you were looking for is stored. Unfortunately I did't have any copies Ah, so there is a loader program. I will dig about on the 'BBC Lives' website, I can't believe there's nothing suitable there. > Once I get the US Beeb and can read the disks native, does anyone have > any good suggestions on how to read and transfer disk images to Unix If you want to transfer individual files, there is a kermit for the beeb (and for that matter for the ACW's 32016 side...). Kermit may not be efficient, but it's available for anything.... > over a serial line? Remembering that I'll have to bootstrap any process > by typing the code in to the Beeb. I guess I should start wiring up > a Beeb<->PC serial line right now! Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 works.... -tony From richlist at sias.us Sun Sep 19 00:30:18 2004 From: richlist at sias.us (Rich Sias) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Searching for LapTop manual (IBM T21) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409190549.i8J5njn9004117@huey.classiccmp.org> Yea, yea, its not old enough But then maybe someone has a pdf or word doc of a manual I could have shot at me. I have just won a bid on one on eBay and it came with no manual or Win98 CD even though it has a license. I figure I can find a CD locally but the manual I'd check here. Rich Sias From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 00:40:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: >Which made me think, I haven't seen anything from him since 10 August >or so, and while I've never met him I think he's an old-timer.... Thanks for passing that on, Don will be missed. August was a bad month. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sun Sep 19 01:46:17 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) References: Message-ID: <01a601c49e14$600177e0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 6:02 AM Subject: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) >> over a serial line? Remembering that I'll have to bootstrap any process >> by typing the code in to the Beeb. I guess I should start wiring up >> a Beeb<->PC serial line right now! > > Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 > works.... Just do what I did and solder a db9 onto the pads with flying leads. :D (and yes, the DIN plug is still in place and works) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.759 / Virus Database: 508 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 01:49:15 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Fwd: RSTS strange problem Message-ID: <05E15730-0A08-11D9-BB2E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> More info.. I can edit files if I am logged in as 100,1 but if I change files in 1,2 they disappear at running $shutup. I visited the computer history museum today and showed someone there the problem, and they suggested I "crash" the system instead of running shutup... tty.cmd remained afterward. It seems like shutup is doing somthing to try to protect the system by deleteing an edited system file. Other History... > Ron> There is a problem when I am logged to my RSTS/E(simh) in as > Ron> [1,2]. > > Ron> I recently have been trying to edit my tty.cmd file, I am using > Ron> teco, I edit the file making a change, I save the file with the > Ron> teco command ex$$, ($=escape). Once out of teco I type tty.cmd > Ron> to verify my changes. I then use pip to copy tty.cmd to tty.bak > Ron> and tty.old . > > Ron> Then I shutdown RSTS/E and restart - to make sure my changes > Ron> work. > > Ron> On reboot RSTS can't run tty.cmd - claims it can't even find it. > Ron> Of course the startup procedure stops at that point so a lot of > Ron> other things don't get done (loading error managers, spool > Ron> managers, batch manager and defining CCL are the main things) > > Ron> While in this state directory (run $direct) cant find tty.* none > Ron> of the tty files I copied remain.. > > Ron> I even tried saving a file named cmd.tty and it vanished too. > > Ron> I type a new tty.cmd from scratch (using teco or pip) and reboot > Ron> and now **all** of them are back. > > Ron> 8^P What's up? > > Sounds like a corrupt file structure. > > Try the "clean" option in INIT (Refresh command) at boot. > I did try this, it does not seem to help. > paul > Begin forwarded message: > From: Ron Hudson > Date: September 17, 2004 10:01:06 PM PDT > To: Classic Computers > Subject: RSTS strange problem > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Ok, > > I have repeated it again... and typed out all the files before I > rebooted - they disappeared again. > > I ran option:RES Clean then booted again. They were still gone. > > It's funny that all the files I touched disappeared.. > > Perhaps this is a clue... What is SY0: as contrast to SY: and DL0: > (all the same drive?) > From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Sep 19 01:58:24 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: classiccmp server problems References: <200409190011.i8J0BQIR000185@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003701c49e16$0e9aed80$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: classiccmp server problems > > Yup, the drive is pretty much toast. No telling how long it's going > to > stay up this time. I'm headed back home from the datacenter to start > copying stuff off the drive. > > Loosely translated, anyone who wants to chip in for a new hard drive > for the classiccmp server, let me know. If the servr is down, > I can be reached at jwest@ezwind.net > > Thanks. > > Jay > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Sep 19 02:23:21 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919002257.05bd3ec0@mail.zipcon.net> That just sux :( Don had helped me out several times in the past :( At 10:40 PM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >>Which made me think, I haven't seen anything from him since 10 August >>or so, and while I've never met him I think he's an old-timer.... > >Thanks for passing that on, Don will be missed. August was a bad month. > > Zane > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 19 04:30:26 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: RSTS strange problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052813.02eb0008@192.168.0.1> At 01:01 AM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >I have repeated it again... and typed out all the files before I rebooted >- they disappeared again. > >I ran option:RES Clean then booted again. They were still gone. > >It's funny that all the files I touched disappeared.. > >Perhaps this is a clue... What is SY0: as contrast to SY: and DL0: (all >the same drive?) If you have 2 public disks RSTS is kind enough to share the load and spread new files among them. That was one of first "gotchas" RSTS had for me. From then on, I didn't mount any other drives as PUBLIC. Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 19 04:24:08 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: QBus chassis and backplanes In-Reply-To: <10409181804.ZM29808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1> At 01:04 PM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >In view of the recent discussion about which backplane(s) go with which >CPU(s) and some similar discussion on alt.sys.pdp11, I've collected >together some of my data on backplanes and chassis. They're in a text >file at > >http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > >If anyone wishes to add to that, feel free to send me information :-) Bravo! What an excellent piece of work. Thank you. Ed K. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 19 05:32:59 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095589979.22747.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Mornin', On Sat, 2004-09-18 at 00:56 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > If the printer port was only ever used to link to printers, then I can > make a cable from the 24 pin Blue Ribbon to a 36 pin Blue Ribbon (to fit > a Centronics printer socket). But if someone used the printer port for > something else (say as a set of outputs to control something, since it's > buffered the data lines are output-only), I suppose I'd better make an > adapter back to a 26 pin header. > > So has anyone ever heard of the Beeb printer port being used for > something other than a parallel printer? The docs for the Timestep weather satellite decoder which I have in front of me say that the unit uses the printer port. It appears to feed the 2 or 4Hz clock output from the decoder into the printer port; the user port is tied up handling the digital representation of the analogue satellite signal. Incidentally, the docs actually contain full schematics (it's not a complicated circuit) so hopefully I'll find time to build one sometime. I was given as Astrid satellite receiver a few weeks ago which works with UoSAT-1 (long dead) and UoSAT-2 (still running on a 50% cycle). Being able to display satellite images on 80's hardware would be quite cool :-) (funny how all this turned up at once via two seperate people - I wasn't particularly looking for satellite stuff) The Timestep decoder also works with NOAA, METEOSAT, and FAX (WEFAX) apparently - I have no idea which (if any) of those are still operational, but given a suitable receiver they could also be used in place of a UoSAT-2 signal. cheers, Jules From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 19 05:44:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Frank McConnell wrote: > A Google search on 'Maslin "San Diego"' found > > which says: > > DONALD A. MASLIN > > Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 > > Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New > Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the > Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego > Computer Society. Aw man. This truly sucks. Big time. Don was such a great contributor to our silly little hobby. He was always there to offer you a system disk for your random computer. Now I'm bummed-out... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 19 06:00:47 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:16 2005 Subject: QBus chassis and backplanes In-Reply-To: Ed Kelleher "Re: QBus chassis and backplanes" (Sep 19, 5:24) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <10409191200.ZM597@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 19 2004, 5:24, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 01:04 PM 9/18/2004, you wrote: > >In view of the recent discussion about which backplane(s) go with which > >CPU(s) and some similar discussion on alt.sys.pdp11, I've collected > >together some of my data on backplanes and chassis. > Bravo! What an excellent piece of work. > Thank you. Thanks! It's not complete, though. For example, I don't know what's in a BA212/BA213 (I believe it's a 12-slot straight Q/CD, but I don't know the number), BA215 (6 slot?) or BA440 (same as BA213?), or in a PDP-11/93 (I assume it's the same as an 11/83). And wasn't there a very small backplane in one of the PDTs or Pros, or am I misremembering? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 19 06:19:48 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz In-Reply-To: <10409191200.ZM597@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919071822.02e05ad0@192.168.0.1> A PDP8A chassis is listed on eBay, in the USA http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124686380&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Wonder what someone will think when they find out it's 50Hz only. It's in the pictures, but not in the writeup. Ed K. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 19 08:09:43 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919071822.02e05ad0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040919071822.02e05ad0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <11422.62.177.191.201.1095599383.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > A PDP8A chassis is listed on eBay, in the USA > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124686380&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Wonder what someone will think when they find out it's 50Hz only. > It's in the pictures, but not in the writeup. > > Ed K. > > That should not really matter that much, it is still 115 volts. The block of iron in the transformer is a little overspec-ed for 60Hz. Ed G. From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Sep 19 08:18:40 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: 2.88 floppies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040918001226.00a7f990@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040830133604.03b76460@mail.30below.com> <200408300309.UAA12772@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20040918001226.00a7f990@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040919131840.GN23627@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 12:25:05AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Apparently Intel has the trusty old floppy scheduled for the chopping > block, so naturally I am more interested in them than ever. > > Also I know the list talked about it a little, but does anybody know how > these USB floppy drives actually work? I saw a snippet in a dogpile search > from a page I couldn't download anymore (halfbaked.com) that suggested a > fairly raw signal is passed via the USB with the processing done by the > host PC cpu. That would suggest a lot of modification possibilities > wouldn't it? I guess they simply work as a standard "USB mass storage" device, representing the 1440 KB of a standard 3.5" HD floppy as a big chunk of adressable storage. That would be a lot simpler and easier than transfering the raw analog signal from the heads (digitized at high resolution so things work at all) into the host and processing it there. They most likely take a bog standard 3.5" HD floppy drive and slap on some USB interface circuitry - way cheaper than the approach you describe, I guess. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 19 08:35:33 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: Message-ID: <414D8B25.1090303@cableone.net> Sure the buss width matters if you are measuring memory as it is NORMALY measured, in Bytes, not Bits. Tony Duell wrote: >>As I stated earlier, I have cannibalized three HP laserjet series II >>printers. In looking over the parts recovered I find that I have three >>(3) totally different memory boards. >> >>The first is populated with small chips on BOTH sides of the board with >>a total of 128 soldered in chips that appear from their part numbers to >>be 256K memory chips, That is the number 256 appears within the part >>number. Now I don't know how wide the buss is but I am assuming 8 bits >>because of its age. If so this board is a 4 Megabyte memory board. >> >> > >The bus width doesn't matter in determining the memory size. If you had >16 1 megabit memory chips arranged as 2 megs * 8 bits, that a 2 megabyte >board. If you had them arrangeded as 1 meg * 16 bits, that's still a 2 >megabyte board. > >The Series 2 formatters use a 68000 processor (the 64 pin chip on the >formatter board) and thus have a 16 bit wide databus. > >-tony > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Sep 19 08:40:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Once more into the bins In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040917204731.00a90810@pop-server.socal.rr.com > References: <1094937616.10126.18.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040919094039.0094ea90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:39 PM 9/17/04 -0700, you wrote: >List forgive me, its been two months since I had anything good to confess ... > >I finally had some time to spend at a couple of scrap places I like, and it >was both good and bad. > >First place is a huge nationwide scrap company with offices in three or >four states, GoldenWest, and in the past a place where I have seen a lot of >decent old iron. Its the place I posted to the list a few months ago that >had the batch tape drives and HP minis. They now have a full time ebay guy That may be a GOOD thing. I;ve found that E-bay means that they'll usually hold the stuff ionstead of scrapping it immedaitely. I've also found that the E-bay guys don't usually bother with the old stuff since they don't know what it is so there's a good chance you can buy it from them. The E-bay'ers also don't usually don't want to fool with the big iron so again there's a good chance you can get it for little of nothing. >and it looks like the stream of older stuff now goes straight to scrap >without public access. That's an issue that you'll have to work on. I'm allowed into several places that don't normally allow outsiders in. I'm allowed in because (1) I never steal anythiing (2) I don't tear things up to get one small part (3) I don't make a mess. Any one of those will get you kicked out in the blink of an eye. Joe > >Second place is much smaller, couple industrial units that are packed to >the top with pallets, taken out and spread all around outside every morning >to sort, and packed back in each night. This one was good for a couple >hours of head down in the bins time, but not much in the "classic" 10+ >years old category except for a couple old mac bits (some 9 pin localtalk >adapters, a mac plus numeric keyboard, and some odd bits like big 5 pin >original PC to ps/2 keyboard adapters and extension cables). There were >about 5 gaylords (pallet sized cardboard boxes) of misc circuit boards, and >4,000 small punctures to my fingers later I had a nice pile of video, >network, scsi, and ide cards. Nothing fancy, but a couple nice PCI video >cards for older macs, typical Adaptec 2940, ata66 and ata133 cards, and >quite interesting a handfull of Ati 10/100bt combo fiber cards with various >fiber connections. > >I do have a question about one card I saw, but unfortunately missed. A >Nubus card that was full length, but populated sparsely with nothing but 14 >to 20 pin dips, Apple branded (sorry didn't write down the number, actually >sorrier I didn't just grab it while it was on top of the heap) and labeled >Bus Master or mastering maybe. > >OK, not too exciting or classic, but like I said its been a nasty dry spell. > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Sep 19 09:01:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040919100103.0094e4a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Damm! I'm sorry to hear that. Don helped me (and many others) a lot over the years. Don was an irreplacable asset to this hobby and I'll sure miss him. Joe At 09:57 PM 9/18/04 -0700, you wrote: >Yet another e-mail virus forged my address on an e-mail to his >address, and it bounced to me with something like "mailbox full". >Which made me think, I haven't seen anything from him since 10 August >or so, and while I've never met him I think he's an old-timer.... > >A Google search on 'Maslin "San Diego"' found > >which says: > >DONALD A. MASLIN > >Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 > >Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New >Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the >Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego >Computer Society. > >Survivors include his wife, Bristol; and sister, Margaret Stadtler of >Versailles, Ky. > >No services were planned. > >A scattering of ashes was planned. > >Arrangements: Telophase Cremation Society. > >(end quote) > >-Frank McConnell > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Sep 19 09:17:12 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919090625.104b7948@pc> At 11:57 PM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >DONALD A. MASLIN >Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 >Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. A fine man, clearly - one of those saints who'd help whenever he could. A month ago, a young woman I knew passed away at the age of 32 from another bout of cancer. She had many cyber-friends, spent time with them in IM, and took many digital pictures. Her older parents weren't very computer-literate, so they really appreciated my offer to help archive, scrub and re-purpose her PC and laptop. They knew they didn't want to lose her pictures, but they were at a loss as how to save them. Every hobby faces this, of course: we're going to lose human repositories of wisdom and stuff, young and old. We can be thankful that they've done major and minor brain-dumps to this mailing list. No one would argue that it would be insensitive to contact the family to tell them what their relative meant to a group of friends in cyberspace. They may not even know about us. I also don't think it's crass to remind the family that we'll help find a good home for all the stuff that the departed treasured and hoarded, because chances are good that there's no one within their family that appreciates it the way we do. And heavens, as many here have discussed, it doesn't hurt to put a clause in your will to direct the disposal of your treasured junk. And perhaps someday we'll all have a decent cyber-deadman's-switch. It may mean the world to you now, but how many times have you heard stories of families filling multiple Dumpsters to clean out Grandpa's house of junk after he died? It'll mean nothing to the person cleaning up, unless you write it down. - John From mike-cc at msdsite.com Sun Sep 19 09:21:50 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: SNAP programs for Panasonic RL H-1400 In-Reply-To: <41499E85.26379.10A7BDF@localhost> References: <200408292112.OAA17106@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <414D338E.10287.37F8BC4@localhost> Does anyone have any information on how SNAP programs are written on a PC and downloaded to a Panasonic H1400? Are they just text files? Does it require a development system? Anyone know where syntax info is available, if BASIC-like or text files? I can't find anything on the internet about SNAP applications for the Panasonic H1400, related to actually writing programs in SNAP for the 1400. Thanks, From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 19 09:53:04 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919090625.104b7948@pc> Message-ID: >>> A fine man, clearly - one of those saints who'd help >>> whenever he could. << Snip of long, and very well written post >> >>> No one would argue that it would be insensitive to contact >>> the family to tell them what their relative meant to a >>> group of friends in cyberspace. They may not even know about us. My only comment is that one member of this list be the designated contact to the family. At least initially until their reaction is known. I have seen many people react in very different ways while grieving. If there is anyone on this list who knows a family member or friend of Don's then I engourage that person to talk with them and see how to best proceed. Let me take this opportunity to pass on my sincerest condolences to the family and friends of Don. He will surely be missed by many here. David From gtoal at gtoal.com Sun Sep 19 10:05:35 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <200409191333.i8JDVdnJ006261@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409191333.i8JDVdnJ006261@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <414DA03F.mail5D72LAESY@gtoal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am suprised a sound sampler used the printer port -- there's only 2 > bit of input (the ACK line). Why not use the user port? My memory is really starting to fade. Now I think about it more, it was an ARCHIE peripheral! :-/ > It's brought off-board. It's linked to a 24 pin Blue Ribbon connector > (looks like a GPIB connecotr, but isn't the same wiring, of course) on > the back. I will certainly make a cable to link it to a printer... I may have the proper cable. I have an ACW but I think I finally scrapped the printer I was using with it. (One of those crummy Olivetti inkjets - really not worth repairing) > > By the way I'm borrowing Joe Rigdon's US Beeb so I can recover the code > > on my BBC 5.25" floppies, which is where the sideways RAM loading code > > you were looking for is stored. Unfortunately I did't have any copies > > Ah, so there is a loader program. I will dig about on the 'BBC Lives' > website, I can't believe there's nothing suitable there. There are *many* loader programs and they're easy to write. This particular one was one of mine and I don't think the source ever made it anywhere public. Fortunately I have at least 20 floppies containing the source and one of them is surely still readable! As well as a small stand-alone utility I wrote myself, a friend I was working with wrote a clone of the Master rom extensions, including SRLOAD etc, that I supplied with my Rom/Ram board. > If you want to transfer individual files, there is a kermit for the beeb > (and for that matter for the ACW's 32016 side...). Kermit may not be > efficient, but it's available for anything.... I know, look in the sources of ACW kermit and see who ported it :-) I was amazed (and depressed) that the ARM port of Kermit was simply my ACW port with another layer added to fake out the ACW routines, which themselves were just a veneer over BBC OSBytes! What a mess! But my experience has been that sucking off the entire disk as an image is not only faster, its more reliable in terms of disk errors, plus you find interesting deleted files that way :-) G From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 19 10:20:20 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <414DA03F.mail5D72LAESY@gtoal.com> References: <200409191333.i8JDVdnJ006261@huey.classiccmp.org> <414DA03F.mail5D72LAESY@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <1095607220.22730.73.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 10:05 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > I know, look in the sources of ACW kermit and see who ported it :-) > I was amazed (and depressed) that the ARM port of Kermit was simply > my ACW port with another layer added to fake out the ACW routines, > which themselves were just a veneer over BBC OSBytes! What a mess! In case you're interested and/or have bits to offer, I'm trying to preserve whatever media (docs and software) I can for some of the more unusual Acorn odds and ends (ABC range, 32016 second processor, ARM Evaluation Kit, Springboard etc.) I've got some items scanned / imaged from various sources, but I'm mainly sorting out who has what at present. Getting archives of full sets of 'core' media together seems to be possible; enough people have stray items around from which full sets can be made. What's severely lacking (mainly because they would have been severely lacking even when current, and time hasn't helped!) is any 'user land' type stuff. I'm yet to find *anything* that was marketed for the ACW; it's possible that PSpice ran on it, and possibly the QuickChip software (Witchy seems to have the only surviving copy of that on an ACW, and it's unfortunately screwed). I've got some data suggesting rumours of an IP stack for the ARM Eval Kit running over Econet, but unfortunately no code as of yet - I've got some tapes yet to read though which have system backups on and may contain something interesting... > But my experience has been that sucking off the entire disk as an image > is not only faster, its more reliable in terms of disk errors, plus you > find interesting deleted files that way :-) Heh, indeed. In addition, I've just been reading the password file from an MDFS fileserver from an image of the drive so I can get access to the real thing - people really did (do?) have things like 'password' for their password... cheers, Jules ps. Ever heard of a project called 'Squirrel'? Seems to have been some sort of 'super-BBC' clone, but I've only got the vaguest of references to it amongst some Acorn docs unfortunately... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Sep 19 10:31:36 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Intel 86/330 pictures Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040919113136.009473e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi All, I brought home two of the Intel 86/330 computers that I recently bought. (The things are BIG and I could only get two in the car at one time). I was told that they all contained bubble memory cards and the one that I checked had one but neither of the ones that I brought home had one :-( Anyway I took a few pictures of the two that I brought home. Here are some links; Front , Back , One of these has the iSBC86/30 CPU card with a iSBC337 NDP daughterboard and a Real Time Clock daughterboard made by Linear Systems , they both contained iSBC215 Winchester Hard Disk Controller cards with iSBC215 Floppy Disk Controller daughterboards , one system contains an iSBC028 RAM card , the other contains an iSBC012CX RAM card , both systems contain iSBC86/30 CPU cards . One system contains an iSBC88/45 Advanced Data Communications board. This is the first iSBC 88/45 that I've seen. According to a site on the net, it has 3 HDLC/SDLC half/full duplex communication channels, optional ASNCH/SYNC on 2 channels, Supports RS232C, CCITT V.24, or RS422A/449, has a 8088 8 MHz microprocessor, On-Board DMA supports 800KB baud operations, Self-clocking NRZI SDLC loop data link interface point-to-point multidrop, 16KB static RAM, Software programmable baud rate generation. More later, Joe From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Sep 19 10:29:42 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409190829.42446.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Don was a great guy - and as Sellam says, was always willing to help provide you with system and boot disks. I last chatted and swapped disks with him last March. His passing will be a great loss to our group - both as a hobbiest, a willing helper and friend. We will miss him dearly. It makes me very sad indeed.. Lyle On Sunday 19 September 2004 03:44, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Frank McConnell wrote: > > A Google search on 'Maslin "San Diego"' found > > > > which says: > > > > DONALD A. MASLIN > > > > Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 > > > > Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New > > Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the > > Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego > > Computer Society. > > Aw man. This truly sucks. Big time. Don was such a great contributor to > our silly little hobby. He was always there to offer you a system disk > for your random computer. > > Now I'm bummed-out... -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Sep 19 11:18:23 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz In-Reply-To: <11422.62.177.191.201.1095599383.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl > References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040919071822.02e05ad0@192.168.0.1> <11422.62.177.191.201.1095599383.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919121731.03952440@mail.earthlink.net> look at the capacitor connected to the transformer. That is a constant voltage transformer and will need 50 hz to work correctly. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 09:09 AM 09/19/2004, you wrote: > > A PDP8A chassis is listed on eBay, in the USA > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124686380&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > Wonder what someone will think when they find out it's 50Hz only. > > It's in the pictures, but not in the writeup. > > > > Ed K. > > > > > >That should not really matter that much, it is still 115 volts. >The block of iron in the transformer is a little overspec-ed for 60Hz. > >Ed G. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 11:32:06 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Searching for LapTop manual (IBM T21) In-Reply-To: <200409190549.i8J5njn9004117@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409190549.i8J5njn9004117@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Yea, yea, its not old enough > >But then maybe someone has a pdf or word doc of a manual I could have shot at >me. >I have just won a bid on one on eBay and it came with no manual or Win98 CD >even though it has a license. I figure I can find a CD locally but the manual >I'd check here. > >Rich Sias Have you thought of checking the IBM Website? I know they're pretty good about driver support for their older laptops, though I'm not sure how good they are about manuals. Last time I checked, they still had driver support for on-topic laptops online. Also, a T21 should be able to handle Win2k, WinXP, or Linux just fine, you're not stuck with Win98. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Sep 19 11:52:44 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Searching for LapTop manual (IBM T21) In-Reply-To: References: <200409190549.i8J5njn9004117@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I checked www.acsparts.com - while their "Thinkpad Manuals" listings show T20, T22, and T23 (of course!!) manuals - all for $20 - you might want to give 'em a call. I've used them for Toshiba parts, and they're quite friendly and helpful over the phone. Cheers John From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 12:51:42 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: RSTS strange problem In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052813.02eb0008@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052813.02eb0008@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <90D6DD8F-0A64-11D9-BB2E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 19, 2004, at 2:30 AM, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 01:01 AM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >> I have repeated it again... and typed out all the files before I >> rebooted - they disappeared again. >> >> I ran option:RES Clean then booted again. They were still gone. >> >> It's funny that all the files I touched disappeared.. >> >> Perhaps this is a clue... What is SY0: as contrast to SY: and DL0: >> (all the same drive?) > > If you have 2 public disks RSTS is kind enough to share the load and > spread new files among them. > That was one of first "gotchas" RSTS had for me. > From then on, I didn't mount any other drives as PUBLIC. > > Ed K. > > That did it... I specifically edited the tty.cmd on sy0: and then rebooted... it works! From vrs at msn.com Sun Sep 19 11:48:22 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052348.02e01ad8@192.168.0.1><5.2.0.9.2.20040919071822.02e05ad0@192.168.0.1><11422.62.177.191.201.1095599383.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <6.1.2.0.2.20040919121731.03952440@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c49e73$2cc2ad40$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > look at the capacitor connected to the transformer. That is a constant > voltage transformer and will need 50 hz to work correctly. Hey, I have one of these on a shelf as a "spare" 8/a chassis (with almost enough spare boards to make a spare 8a :-)). I'd like to know if the 50Hz turns out to be a strict requirement or not. If so, is there is any easy way to convert the thing for 60Hz? Thanks! Vince From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 19 13:30:37 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz In-Reply-To: <000001c49e73$2cc2ad40$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > look at the capacitor connected to the transformer. That is a constant > > voltage transformer and will need 50 hz to work correctly. > > Hey, I have one of these on a shelf as a "spare" 8/a chassis (with almost > enough spare boards to make a spare 8a :-)). I'd like to know if the 50Hz > turns out to be a strict requirement or not. If so, is there is any easy > way to convert the thing for 60Hz? > > Thanks! > > Vince > Probably replacing the capacitor (Oil or PCB) with one about 70% the capacitance of the current one would be the easiest thing. This is to shift the resonance up to 60 Hz. Be very careful of the resonant capacitor circuit, it has quite high voltages... Peter Wallace From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 19 14:29:41 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> John Lawson wrote: > What irked me (and still irks me) about your post, was *not* your > feelings towards my admittedly paranoid view anent intrusions on my > personal computers - no, what pissed me off was that I was ready to > learn from you and honor your knowledge - I was thinking that rather > than engage in jejune absurdities, you'd have taken the time and space > to help me out a bit - show me that perhaps I'm over-reacting - tell me > why I oughta let the little cookies live on my machines. Ok, ok... In my own defence might I just say that I have spent roughly a third of my 2-and-a-half weeks holiday clearing up the devastation that only unpatched Windows 2000 machines can bring, and was feeling a little sore when I posted. > Instead, you very heavily patronized *myself* with your adolescent > screed of more-and-more ridiculous questions... "do I remove the battery > at night and re-set the BIOS every morning" indeed! Don't laugh. I knew someone who did this. Really. They had read in $pseudotechy_periodical that viruses could live in the NVRAM in your PCs clock chip. I kid you not. > I have had this IBM Thinkpad for about five years now, and got it > while I still lived and working in Southern India. I have a firewall, a > virus-checker, a spyware checker, and I disallow active-X, Java, Flash, > Coookies (unless I can't get business done w/out them)etc. To date I > have had one 'infection'; the Welchia Worm. And I got that during a > network setup sesson at my employer's - I had to shutdown my firewall to > synchronize permissions and set up various clients, someone else on the > network was infected and I got it. Noticing that my port was > communicating at nearly it's capacity and my computer was getting slow, > I scnned it and killed the bug. And that has been the only problem I've > had to deal with in five years. I had a clever-clogs in the office of an Internet service provider I used to work for disconnect his PC from the LAN and hook up a modem so he could "send mailshots properly" - he'd taken it upon himself to do a spot of "advertising" for our company. He was dialled up for around 25 minutes, and his machine was infected with Blaster. This is despite keeping it up-to-date (there wasn't a patch at this point), although there was no firewall software on the machine. Not a lot of point, when you're supposed to be behind a proper firewall, is there? > Thus am I being: Paranoid? Careful? Absurd? You tell me, Gordon. Just > keep the sarcasm and grandiose flights of superiority to yourself, please. Eeeh, ok. Well, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Certainly people can and do use cookies for identifying repeat visits, for advertising and the like. You can block these with any Mozilla-based browser, and someone said (possibly on this list) that IE6 can do it now too. Since I don't run Windows (never have done, don't intend to) I can't verify this. Leaving cookies off and only turning them on for sites that need them seems a bit pointless and inconvenient, but if it makes you happier then go right ahead. I have to say, I am somewhat surprised at the number of people who do use Windows on this list. I would have thought that the various open-source Unix-alikes would have appealled more. Just don't let the l337 skript kiddies get any ideas, in case they come up with some 0-day 'sploit for TSS-8! Gordon. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 19 14:38:27 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> If cookies are a worry, do as I do. I run a program called SpyHunter that runs on boot up every time. It then offers to scan my compiuter for Spy Ware. Since that takes some time I usualy opt only for a scan of my cookies. This takes about 2 seconds, no more, and I have a full report on the cookies. Since I have 17 cookies that are legitimate I usualy just look at the count. If it hasnt increased I go on. BUT there is also displayed a list of any dangerous cookies, their properties and who owns them. If the list is blank then all is well. If not I stop and delete the offending cookies. The software is FREE. Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > John Lawson wrote: > >> What irked me (and still irks me) about your post, was *not* your >> feelings towards my admittedly paranoid view anent intrusions on my >> personal computers - no, what pissed me off was that I was ready to >> learn from you and honor your knowledge - I was thinking that rather >> than engage in jejune absurdities, you'd have taken the time and >> space to help me out a bit - show me that perhaps I'm over-reacting - >> tell me why I oughta let the little cookies live on my machines. > > > Ok, ok... In my own defence might I just say that I have spent > roughly a third of my 2-and-a-half weeks holiday clearing up the > devastation that only unpatched Windows 2000 machines can bring, and > was feeling a little sore when I posted. > >> Instead, you very heavily patronized *myself* with your adolescent >> screed of more-and-more ridiculous questions... "do I remove the >> battery at night and re-set the BIOS every morning" indeed! > > > Don't laugh. I knew someone who did this. Really. They had read in > $pseudotechy_periodical that viruses could live in the NVRAM in your > PCs clock chip. I kid you not. > >> I have had this IBM Thinkpad for about five years now, and got it >> while I still lived and working in Southern India. I have a firewall, >> a virus-checker, a spyware checker, and I disallow active-X, Java, >> Flash, Coookies (unless I can't get business done w/out them)etc. To >> date I have had one 'infection'; the Welchia Worm. And I got that >> during a network setup sesson at my employer's - I had to shutdown my >> firewall to synchronize permissions and set up various clients, >> someone else on the network was infected and I got it. Noticing that >> my port was communicating at nearly it's capacity and my computer was >> getting slow, I scnned it and killed the bug. And that has been the >> only problem I've had to deal with in five years. > > > I had a clever-clogs in the office of an Internet service provider I > used to work for disconnect his PC from the LAN and hook up a modem so > he could "send mailshots properly" - he'd taken it upon himself to do > a spot of "advertising" for our company. He was dialled up for around > 25 minutes, and his machine was infected with Blaster. This is > despite keeping it up-to-date (there wasn't a patch at this point), > although there was no firewall software on the machine. Not a lot of > point, when you're supposed to be behind a proper firewall, is there? > >> Thus am I being: Paranoid? Careful? Absurd? You tell me, Gordon. >> Just keep the sarcasm and grandiose flights of superiority to >> yourself, please. > > > Eeeh, ok. Well, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Certainly > people can and do use cookies for identifying repeat visits, for > advertising and the like. You can block these with any Mozilla-based > browser, and someone said (possibly on this list) that IE6 can do it > now too. Since I don't run Windows (never have done, don't intend to) > I can't verify this. Leaving cookies off and only turning them on for > sites that need them seems a bit pointless and inconvenient, but if it > makes you happier then go right ahead. > > I have to say, I am somewhat surprised at the number of people who do > use Windows on this list. I would have thought that the various > open-source Unix-alikes would have appealled more. Just don't let the > l337 skript kiddies get any ideas, in case they come up with some > 0-day 'sploit for TSS-8! > > Gordon. > From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Sep 19 14:57:20 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > If cookies are a worry, do as I do. I run a program called SpyHunter that > runs on boot up every time. It then offers to scan my compiuter for Spy > Ware. Since that takes some time I usualy opt only for a scan of my cookies. > This takes about 2 seconds, no more, and I have a full report on the cookies. > Since I have 17 cookies that are legitimate I usualy just look at the count. > If it hasnt increased I go on. BUT there is also displayed a list of any > dangerous cookies, their properties and who owns them. If the list is blank > then all is well. If not I stop and delete the offending cookies. The > software is FREE. This is a fabulous referral; thank you! I'll check it out as soon as I get a moment - much appreciated! I do run WindowWasher, but it runs on shut-down, and sometimes my machine is on for a day at a time - quite long hours for a laptop that I use at the office and at home, too. Cheers John From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 19 15:02:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine (presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a message. I'll try again later today. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Sep 19 15:34:26 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz In-Reply-To: References: <000001c49e73$2cc2ad40$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919163210.03900810@mail.earthlink.net> lowering the capacitance would work. The transformer may have a tap on it where the cap connects to use 60 hz also. The chassis was "wired" for 50 hz so the tag would have that rating on it. I would expect DEC would have kept one transformer in stock and customized at mfg (maybe). best regards, Steve At 02:30 PM 09/19/2004, you wrote: >On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, vrs wrote: > > > > look at the capacitor connected to the transformer. That is a constant > > > voltage transformer and will need 50 hz to work correctly. > > > > Hey, I have one of these on a shelf as a "spare" 8/a chassis (with almost > > enough spare boards to make a spare 8a :-)). I'd like to know if the 50Hz > > turns out to be a strict requirement or not. If so, is there is any easy > > way to convert the thing for 60Hz? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Vince > > > > >Probably replacing the capacitor (Oil or PCB) with one about 70% the >capacitance of the current one would be the easiest thing. This is to shift >the resonance up to 60 Hz. Be very careful of the resonant capacitor circuit, >it has quite high voltages... > >Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 13:39:08 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <414D8B25.1090303@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 19, 4 08:35:33 am Message-ID: > > Sure the buss width matters if you are measuring memory as it is NORMALY > measured, in Bytes, not Bits. No it doesn't. Suppose I take 16 of the 64K * 1 DRAM chips (4164s). I wire them up to an 8 bit databus with the apporporate control electronics so I get 128K 8 bit locations. That stores 128K bytes. I now wire them up differently to a 16 bit data bus system. I haev 64K 16 bit locations. That's _still_ 128K bytes of storage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 13:32:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <01a601c49e14$600177e0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> from "charlesb@otcgaming.net" at Sep 19, 4 07:46:17 am Message-ID: > > Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 > > works.... > > > Just do what I did and solder a db9 onto the pads with flying leads. :D (and You mean a DE9, but anyway... > yes, the DIN plug is still in place and works) I'd probably do that on a normal Beeb, but this is an Acorn Cambridge Workstation. And while I don't normally worry about modifications, this machine is sufficiently rare that I don't want to do anything irreversable to it (I don't mind soldering bits on the circuit boards, doing the sideways RAM hack, etc, but I don't want to cut holes in it. I have made up a serial cable anyway, I just have to remember to plug it it the right way up. I have never figured out the reason for the pinout of the Beeb serial port. The Tatung Einstein [1] uses the same connector, but the wiring is sane in that turning the plug over swaps TxD with RxD and RTS with CTS, thus giving the null-modem swap. [1] A machine that has a few Beeb-related jokes in the design. The Einstein's system bus is called the 'Pipe', Acorn called the second processor interface the 'Tube'. That itself was a joke -- the Tube is a slang neame for the London Underground (Subway to you guys across the Pond), which of course is an alternative to the bus.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 15:20:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <414DA03F.mail5D72LAESY@gtoal.com> from "Graham Toal" at Sep 19, 4 10:05:35 am Message-ID: > > It's brought off-board. It's linked to a 24 pin Blue Ribbon connector > > (looks like a GPIB connecotr, but isn't the same wiring, of course) on > > the back. I will certainly make a cable to link it to a printer... > > I may have the proper cable. I have an ACW but I think I finally Making the cable is not a problem for me. Heck, it's straight-through IDC, although the manual does suggest using twist-n-flat cable. Since I've never seen a Beeb pritner cable that was twist-n-flat and since the internal cable is plain ribbon, I don't think it matters that much if I keep the cable short. > > Ah, so there is a loader program. I will dig about on the 'BBC Lives' > > website, I can't believe there's nothing suitable there. > > There are *many* loader programs and they're easy to write. This Well, I wasn't really a Beeb hacker in the old days... And I don't claim to be a programmme now (the hardware side, on the other hand...). But I susepct I'll be able to find something or write something. I asusme that at least some of the loading utilities will work if the particular sideways socket has to be selected to enable writing to that chip. In other words you have to load the sideways ROM select register with the number of the back you want to write too (thus disabling BASIC and DFS, and ...) I am liable to end up with 2 sideways RAM banks (the B+ board can take 32K memory devices, 62256s are cheap, it's just a matter of plugging one in and connecting up the write enable line), so I'd want to be able to select a particular one for loading. > > If you want to transfer individual files, there is a kermit for the beeb > > (and for that matter for the ACW's 32016 side...). Kermit may not be > > efficient, but it's available for anything.... > > I know, look in the sources of ACW kermit and see who ported it :-) Oh, right :-) > But my experience has been that sucking off the entire disk as an image > is not only faster, its more reliable in terms of disk errors, plus you > find interesting deleted files that way :-) It depends on what you want to do with it. The problem is that a 40 track image is not a lot of use to somebody with 80 track drives (and vice-versa). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 15:23:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <1095607220.22730.73.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 19, 4 03:20:20 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 10:05 -0500, Graham Toal wrote: > > I know, look in the sources of ACW kermit and see who ported it :-) > > I was amazed (and depressed) that the ARM port of Kermit was simply > > my ACW port with another layer added to fake out the ACW routines, > > which themselves were just a veneer over BBC OSBytes! What a mess! > > In case you're interested and/or have bits to offer, I'm trying to > preserve whatever media (docs and software) I can for some of the more > unusual Acorn odds and ends (ABC range, 32016 second processor, ARM > Evaluation Kit, Springboard etc.) FWIW, me too. I have the ACW and the ARM evaluation system (BBC Micro Coprocessor [1]). I'm looking for other stuff too, of course, and software to run on them... > I'm yet to find *anything* that was marketed for the ACW; it's possible > that PSpice ran on it, and possibly the QuickChip software (Witchy seems I am pretty sure Reduse3 (computer algebra system) ran on the ACW or the Beeb + 32016 coproceossr. I don't have it, I don't know anyone who's got it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 15:28:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <1095589979.22747.14.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 19, 4 10:32:59 am Message-ID: > > So has anyone ever heard of the Beeb printer port being used for > > something other than a parallel printer? > > The docs for the Timestep weather satellite decoder which I have in > front of me say that the unit uses the printer port. It appears to feed Right. The Maplin one (Published in the Maplin Magazine) used only the user port IIRC. > the 2 or 4Hz clock output from the decoder into the printer port; the > user port is tied up handling the digital representation of the analogue > satellite signal. > > Incidentally, the docs actually contain full schematics (it's not a The Maplin Mags contains schematics for the receiver and decoder. Alas the receiver PCB was supplied ready-build so there's no alighment info :-(. Oh well... I do have a 'real' weather satellite receiver system. It came from ic.ac.uk, and the bit I really wanted (and got) were the 3 I2S image processor/display units (really interesting graphics displays for PDP11/VAXen), complete with schematics, etc. I didn't get the computer (a VAX), but I did get the indoor bits of the receiver -- everything from the 137MHz 1st IF onwards, and the first local oscillator at a couple of GHz. I didn;t get the dish or first mizer. This part is clearly home-made (well made, but it's a 1-off -- the RF bits are built by 'dead bugging' on a copper-clad-board ground plane in metal screening boxes, the digital bit is on stripboard.. I am told this machine was used to receive the weather satellite images for the BBC weather forcasts at one point.... -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 19 15:50:45 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: still looking, and stuff to go UK In-Reply-To: <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040917152547.032e4690@192.168.0.1> <39190.192.168.0.11.1095458306.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <009b01c49d03$04633610$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <414DF125.9020909@gjcp.net> Stuart Birchall wrote: > Hi everyone, > > First up, would anyone like any of these bits: > > Tandy CoCo3 > Sinclair Z88 spares or repair - suspect minor repair needed What's up with the Z88 ? Also, where are you? Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 19 16:03:48 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409191603.48716.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tony Duell declared on Sunday 19 September 2004 01:39 pm: > > Sure the buss width matters if you are measuring memory as it is > > NORMALY measured, in Bytes, not Bits. > > No it doesn't. > > Suppose I take 16 of the 64K * 1 DRAM chips (4164s). I wire them up to > an 8 bit databus with the apporporate control electronics so I get > 128K 8 bit locations. That stores 128K bytes. > > I now wire them up differently to a 16 bit data bus system. I haev 64K > 16 bit locations. That's _still_ 128K bytes of storage. Yes, but it does matter if the memory is ECC or something. 9 x 1Mbit chips doesn't (typically) give you 1152KB of ram, it give you 1024KB. The same goes for ECC, and the memory used in old (on-topic) IBM RS/6000s which is 40 bits wide (ECC + a spare bit). a 2M x 40bit module has 8MB of ram, not 9MB. Also, I guess, it's not proper (at least in my opinion) to say a PDP-8 with 32kW of 12bit wide memory has 48KB of ram. However for multiple of 8 (or 9 with byte-parity or ...) bus widths, the bus width doesn't really matter with how many bytes the memory contains. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spedraja at ono.com Sun Sep 19 16:00:21 2004 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20040919090625.104b7948@pc> Message-ID: <001201c49e8b$ad611500$1502a8c0@ACER> With independence of this sad notice about Don Maslin, you express some thoughts below that impressed me, John. In this electronic era, our computer is the box of our letters, thoughts, diaries, legacy and memories. I NEVER thought about it until now. I consider your suggestion about Don's family a piece of sensibility. No one can be angry for a request to inform how many people knew and appreciate one member of his or her family. Someone said that our inmortality is in the mind of all the people that remember us. Greetings Sergio From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Sep 19 16:00:49 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: Message-ID: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? PDT 110? paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Sep 19 16:04:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: RSTS strange problem References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919052813.02eb0008@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16717.62547.148238.190457@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> At 01:01 AM 9/18/2004, you wrote: >> I have repeated it again... and typed out all the files before I >> rebooted - they disappeared again. >> >> I ran option:RES Clean then booted again. They were still gone. >> >> It's funny that all the files I touched disappeared.. >> >> Perhaps this is a clue... What is SY0: as contrast to SY: and DL0: >> (all the same drive?) Ed> If you have 2 public disks RSTS is kind enough to share the load Ed> and spread new files among them. That was one of first "gotchas" Ed> RSTS had for me. From then on, I didn't mount any other drives Ed> as PUBLIC. Yes. The trouble is that only the system disk is mounted initially, so anything needed to get the system going must be on the system disk and NOT on any other public disk. The best thing to do with public disks is "just say NO". Instead, use a big enough system disk. That definitely was not a good RSTS feature, though perhaps excuseable due to the small size of disk drives in the early 1970s. paul From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 19 16:14:38 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: Message-ID: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> I didn't understand that you were holding the word width constant. If you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and the word width were the same. It was not till they began to make processors with larger word widths that there was a difference. Actually, not till they started making processors. The early computers didn't have processors in the same sense as we now know them as a single component.. The buss normally matched the word width. In this particular case the memory I was counting, on the board in the printer HP printer, I was counting the memory AS IT IS NORMALLY COUNTED for an HP laserjet Series II, and I was right, to count it as 8 bits wide regardless of the word width, I have two 4 meg boards and one 2 meg board. That has been confirmed. My reason for saying the meg count was dependent on buss width was because in this case, IT IS. The buss is 8 bits wide and that is how you count the memory on a HP laserjet card. Tony Duell wrote: >>Sure the buss width matters if you are measuring memory as it is NORMALY >>measured, in Bytes, not Bits. >> >> > > >No it doesn't. > >Suppose I take 16 of the 64K * 1 DRAM chips (4164s). I wire them up to an >8 bit databus with the apporporate control electronics so I get 128K 8 >bit locations. That stores 128K bytes. > >I now wire them up differently to a 16 bit data bus system. I haev 64K 16 >bit locations. That's _still_ 128K bytes of storage. > >-tony > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 19 16:19:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919090625.104b7948@pc> References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20040919090625.104b7948@pc> Message-ID: <20040919140624.S76972@shell.lmi.net> > >DONALD A. MASLIN > >Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 > >Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > as many here have discussed, it doesn't hurt to put a clause > in your will to direct the disposal of your treasured junk. That is very true, but even that doesn't work out - Don was the designated heir for the most important thing that I own: On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Don Maslin wrote: > > I'll let you know when I locate the tote of Flagtstaff stuff > > I will appreciate it. > > > PS: I've left word with the executor for my will that you are to get the > > collection of alien diskettes. > > Hope that is a long way away, Fred, and that I am still around as I am > in my 75th year now by a few months. Good living and longevity to both > of us! > > - don From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 19 16:25:02 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095629102.22730.162.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 19:32 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 > > > works.... > > > > > > Just do what I did and solder a db9 onto the pads with flying leads. :D (and > > You mean a DE9, but anyway... > > > yes, the DIN plug is still in place and works) > > I'd probably do that on a normal Beeb, but this is an Acorn Cambridge > Workstation. And while I don't normally worry about modifications, this > machine is sufficiently rare that I don't want to do anything > irreversable to it (I don't mind soldering bits on the circuit boards, > doing the sideways RAM hack, etc, but I don't want to cut holes in it. Ahh, I might have something for you then... I've got a spare ABC shell that I really don't want to throw out but have no idea what to do with. Would suit someone who didn't want to cut holes in their own machine! It's just the outer shell (including black rear panel), Cub internals, and the black clip-on front bezel is toast. No B+ board, no drives, no coprocessor, not even any of the metal side trays. (The lack of side trays is curious - I can't imagine why those would go missing even if other parts were once scavenged for some reason. Maybe this was an ABC terminal and Acorn never fitted the side trays to those?) Anyway, yell if you want it. I can't justify keeping it any more really and offering it through the usual sources hasn't proved successful. Be nice to know it was going to a good home, and it'd mean you could hack it around as much as you wanted and yet still return your ACW to original condition. > I have never figured out the reason for the pinout of the Beeb serial > port. Without looking at schematics, quite possibly nothing more than the way the signals are natuarally laid out on the pcb? cheers, Jules From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sun Sep 19 16:26:58 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) References: Message-ID: <020e01c49e8f$b8b3f590$7dc3033e@gamemachine> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) >> > Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 >> > works.... >> Just do what I did and solder a db9 onto the pads with flying leads. :D >> (and > You mean a DE9, but anyway... No.. DB.. because that's all I had around :D > >> yes, the DIN plug is still in place and works) > I'd probably do that on a normal Beeb, but this is an Acorn Cambridge > Workstation. And while I don't normally worry about modifications, this > machine is sufficiently rare that I don't want to do anything > irreversable to it (I don't mind soldering bits on the circuit boards, > doing the sideways RAM hack, etc, but I don't want to cut holes in it. I agree however I didnt gcut a hole in the case (it's only a BBC B+ but hey i'm not a cut n shut merchant :D) I just have it on a flying lead coming out the beck ventilation slot :D > I have made up a serial cable anyway, I just have to remember to plug it > it the right way up. > I have never figured out the reason for the pinout of the Beeb serial > port. The Tatung Einstein [1] uses the same connector, but the wiring is > sane in that turning the plug over swaps TxD with RxD and RTS with CTS, > thus giving the null-modem swap. I aint got a clue either. i'd also love to know why they did it that way. as for recognising which way round to put it up, I used a touch of tape on both and line them up that way. regards charles --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.759 / Virus Database: 508 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 17:03:42 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? > >PDT 110? > > paul How big is a PDT-11/110? My PDT-11/150 is quite a bit larger than a DECmate III. To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That would leave room for one additional dual-height board. You'd have to figure out the power-supply and how to wire up any disk or tape drives. I'd build something like this, if I had the backplane, but I don't. The smallest DEC PDP-11 that I'm aware of is the PDP-11/03, but you've got to add a external drive of some sort. For people where a system the size of a BA23 is an issue, your best bet is going to be to simply run under emulation. In my case it isn't the size of the systems so much that is an issue, it's how much space all the documentation I have takes up! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 17:01:15 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> from "Jim Isbell" at Sep 19, 4 04:14:38 pm Message-ID: > > I didn't understand that you were holding the word width constant. If I'm not. But I am keeping the size of a 'byte' constant at 8 bits (this is actually not always the case, but anyway). > you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not > what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and > the word width were the same. It was not till they began to make OK.... Let's think of those 16 64K*1 DRAMs again. If I wire them up as a 16-bit wide memory (to link to a 68000, say), it's correct that I have 64K _words_ of storage (where one word == 16 bits == data bus width). But it's also conventional to call that 128K bytes (the origianl Mac, for example, had exactly that configuration of memory, it was called a 128K machine, even though it's really got 64K words of memory (each being 16 bits or 2 bytes). My PDP11/45 has 124K words of memory. I have seen this quoted as 248K bytes (IMHO that is also correct). > processors with larger word widths that there was a difference. > Actually, not till they started making processors. The early computers > didn't have processors in the same sense as we now know them as a single > component.. The buss normally matched the word width. Usually, but not always The Philips P850 looks to be a 16 bit machine to the programmer, the front panel has 16 toggles, the registers look to be 16 bits wide, as do the memory locations, etc. At the hardware level it's an 8 bit machine, 8 bit ALU (a pair of 74181s) 8 bit data bus to memory, etc. > In this particular case the memory I was counting, on the board in the > printer HP printer, I was counting the memory AS IT IS NORMALLY COUNTED > for an HP laserjet Series II, and I was right, to count it as 8 bits > wide regardless of the word width, I have two 4 meg boards and one 2 meg YEs, becasue a byte is 8 bits, and because the memory chips all store data (not parity or ECC bits, for example). It really doesn't matter if the processor accesses that memory 8 bits at a time or 16 bits at a time. The total number of bits that can be stored is the same. So, therefore, is the total number of 8 bit bytes. > board. That has been confirmed. My reason for saying the meg count was > dependent on buss width was because in this case, IT IS. The buss is 8 > bits wide and that is how you count the memory on a HP laserjet card. Actually, on the Laserjet 2, the bus is 16 bits wide. It's a 68000 processor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 17:05:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <1095629102.22730.162.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 19, 4 09:25:02 pm Message-ID: > > I'd probably do that on a normal Beeb, but this is an Acorn Cambridge > > Workstation. And while I don't normally worry about modifications, this > > machine is sufficiently rare that I don't want to do anything > > irreversable to it (I don't mind soldering bits on the circuit boards, > > doing the sideways RAM hack, etc, but I don't want to cut holes in it. > > Ahh, I might have something for you then... > > I've got a spare ABC shell that I really don't want to throw out but > have no idea what to do with. Would suit someone who didn't want to cut > holes in their own machine! I really don't have space for another such machine... > > It's just the outer shell (including black rear panel), Cub internals, > and the black clip-on front bezel is toast. No B+ board, no drives, no > coprocessor, not even any of the metal side trays. (The lack of side > trays is curious - I can't imagine why those would go missing even if Well, if some board-swapper wanted to swap out the coprocessor board, it's easier to do it complete with the tray. Or maybe somebody wanted to try a diffeent coprocessor (I pulled the 32016 tray from my ACW to test my ARM eveluation system after fixing the latter's PSU -- it was the easiest 'BBC' to get to...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 17:08:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?) In-Reply-To: <020e01c49e8f$b8b3f590$7dc3033e@gamemachine> from "charlesb@otcgaming.net" at Sep 19, 4 10:26:58 pm Message-ID: > >> > Ah yes, that stupid quincuncial DIN plug. Fits both ways up, only 1 > >> > works.... > >> Just do what I did and solder a db9 onto the pads with flying leads. :D > >> (and > > You mean a DE9, but anyway... > No.. DB.. because that's all I had around :D I have never seen a DB9. That would imply a B-size shell (same as the 25 pin D connector ) with 9 pins. (Yes, OK, several of us have used that term to refer to a DB25 with only the normal RS232 pins fited (1-8 and 20), but that's not official. > I agree however I didnt gcut a hole in the case (it's only a BBC B+ but hey > i'm not a cut n shut merchant :D) I just have it on a flying lead coming out > the beck ventilation slot :D There;s no helpful slot on the ACW :-) -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 19 17:26:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) Message-ID: I told ya so! http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/floppy_d ath_4 Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance in everyday life. And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology must go on. Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer makers say. Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies are available on request for $10 to $20 extra. "To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive." A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops don't come with a floppy. More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy, said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard. "As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready to make that move." Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South. At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary equipment, but no floppy. "People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta said. But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their floppies go. "For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway. "I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat Blaisdell. The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and are less likely to break. Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around. "There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old 8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in and looked." In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long. They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of 700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and 256 megabytes. And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s. Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model in 1998. "It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow demise," said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted." It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs. Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the DVD would be obsolete within a decade. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 17:13:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:17 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 19, 4 03:03:42 pm Message-ID: > To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of > real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a There is a Q-bus box called a BA11-V, which is the same size as as the stand-alone TU58 tape drive (and indeed is designed to stack with said drive). It contains a 4-slot backplane (I assume Q18) and a little power supply. It was used in the UK for something called 'York Box' which linked machines (mostly VAXen and PERQs) to the X25-based JANET network. IIRC the standard set of cards was an SBC21, MSV11 (whichever is the 64K byte (OK, 32K word ;-)) version, DPV11 (to link the X25 side) and DRV11 (parallel interface to the host, you could also have a serial link using one of the ports on the SBC21). I suspect that is one of the smallest 'official' PDP11s. -tony From news at computercollector.com Sun Sep 19 17:39:24 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040919223924.3388.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm... well here's a two-part story (the page 2 link is at the bottom) that I wrote back in March 2003: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1577143,00.asp - Evan --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I told ya so! > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/floppy_d > ath_4 > > Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET > > By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer > > ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other > computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the > arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance > in everyday life. > > And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology > must go on. > > Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer > makers say. > > Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in > spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies > are available on request for $10 to $20 extra. > > "To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell > spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a > floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive." > > A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't > have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the > benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops > don't come with a floppy. > > More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy, > said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard. > > "As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she > said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready > to make that move." > > Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so > comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers > outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South. > > At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary > equipment, but no floppy. > > "People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the > last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta > said. > > But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their > floppies go. > > "For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a > pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway. > > "I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat > Blaisdell. > > The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact > discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and > are less likely to break. > > Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used > to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around. > > "There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and > computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old > 8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never > label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in > and looked." > > In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long. > > They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word > processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of > 700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and > 256 megabytes. > > And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used > to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple > Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its > Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s. > > Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop > including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model > in 1998. > > "It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow demise," > said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology > consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were > screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted." > > It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs. > Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the > DVD would be obsolete within a decade. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 19 17:44:00 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919184241.02b80630@192.168.0.1> At 06:03 PM 9/19/2004, you wrote: >How big is a PDT-11/110? My PDT-11/150 is quite a bit larger than a >DECmate III. > >To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of real >hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a dual-height CPU >(ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console port), 3rd party disk >controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That would leave room for one >additional dual-height board. You'd have to figure out the power-supply >and how to wire up any disk or tape drives. I'd build something like >this, if I had the backplane, but I don't. > >The smallest DEC PDP-11 that I'm aware of is the PDP-11/03, but you've got >to add a external drive of some sort. > >For people where a system the size of a BA23 is an issue, your best bet is >going to be to simply run under emulation. In my case it isn't the size >of the systems so much that is an issue, it's how much space all the >documentation I have takes up! What about the VT103, a VT100 with bigger power supply and 4 slot QBus backplane. Ed K. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 17:46:38 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040919184241.02b80630@192.168.0.1> References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <5.2.0.9.2.20040919184241.02b80630@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: >What about the VT103, a VT100 with bigger power supply and 4 slot >QBus backplane. A VT103 isn't exactly small, the VT100 portion on its own takes up quite a bit of space. Then you've got to do something about drives. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 17:52:31 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I told ya so! Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Sep 19 17:58:36 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <200409190829.42446.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyle Bickley > Sent: 19 September 2004 16:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Don Maslin > > Don was a great guy - and as Sellam says, was always willing > to help provide you with system and boot disks. I last > chatted and swapped disks with him last March. His passing > will be a great loss to our group - both as a hobbiest, a > willing helper and friend. We will miss him dearly. It > makes me very sad indeed.. In talking to people who worked at CPT Corp on the CPT series of word processors I rediscovered I'd been talking to Don last december about the machines :-\ If we?re talking about the same Don Maslin then RIP Don, and thanks for the help. If not, let us know where you are! Cheers w From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Sep 19 18:09:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16718.4498.624703.749652@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> Ron> Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? >> PDT 110? >> >> paul Zane> How big is a PDT-11/110? My PDT-11/150 is quite a bit larger Zane> than a DECmate III. Zane> To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made Zane> out of real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, Zane> with a dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J Zane> (providing console port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap Zane> (preferably SCSI). That would leave room for one additional Zane> dual-height board. You'd have to figure out the power-supply Zane> and how to wire up any disk or tape drives. I'd build Zane> something like this, if I had the backplane, but I don't. For standard modules, that sounds right. It would be interesting to check the size of the LA120 electronics module. That has a PDP11 (T-11) on it, I believe. paul From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 19 18:09:51 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409170152.i8H1qPhW019878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040919160154.02b85ba0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At one time at least so many HP II type laserprinters were showing up I think I could have built a house out of them. Not so many these days, and unfortunately many are not in the perfect condition that used to be so easy to find. That said I expect to have most of mine gone by the end of the year, and that makes swap vs repair a fairly obvious choice. OTOH I am kind of sold on my HP LJ4, and still look for neat toys to give it. (bottom large paper thingy). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 19 18:17:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for anything else?)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095635838.23630.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 21:28 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So has anyone ever heard of the Beeb printer port being used for > > > something other than a parallel printer? > > > > The docs for the Timestep weather satellite decoder which I have in > > front of me say that the unit uses the printer port. It appears to feed > > Right. The Maplin one (Published in the Maplin Magazine) used only the > user port IIRC. I've got another one (decoder only) which looks very Maplin-ey. That one just has a pair of SPDT switches on the front along with a meter marked 0-10, whilst at the back there's just power, and a pair of DIN sockets - both 5 pin, although one's arranged in a 'circular' pattern and the other's more like an 'H'. No labels on any of that. I have no idea what this one's for - it's all CMOS logic inside, apart from an 084 op-amp chip. Not too complex, so I'll trace the circuit out one day. It's marked as being for UoSAT on the PCB, but unless data's clocked out serially it doesn't logically seem to be for decoding imagery. > The Maplin Mags contains schematics for the receiver and decoder. Alas > the receiver PCB was supplied ready-build so there's no alighment info > :-(. Oh well... I'll have to see what's in the docs I have. There's a bit of info about calibration in the Timestep info, plus I've got a copy of the original doc released by Surrey uni about UoSAT which is a combination of sales- like material and useful technical information. Luckily for me it seems to go into some detail about how to make an aerial suited to the UoSAT satellites (as I don't have one), plus various others over on the BBC list have been most helpful [waves at Charles and Pete] > I do have a 'real' weather satellite receiver system. It came from > ic.ac.uk, and the bit I really wanted (and got) were the 3 I2S image > processor/display units (really interesting graphics displays for > PDP11/VAXen), complete with schematics, etc. I didn't get the computer (a > VAX), but I did get the indoor bits of the receiver -- everything from > the 137MHz 1st IF onwards, and the first local oscillator at a couple of > GHz. I didn;t get the dish or first mizer. This part is clearly home-made > (well made, but it's a 1-off -- the RF bits are built by 'dead bugging' > on a copper-clad-board ground plane in metal screening boxes, the digital > bit is on stripboard.. I'd forgotten you had that. Do you have sufficient software to make it do something as a complete system if a suitable VAX were found, or has that part of it been consigned to oblivion? It'd be pretty amazing to have that grabbing images and displaying them somewhere :-) (presumably the satellites it was designed to work with are still operational) cheers Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Sep 19 18:38:08 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: Message-ID: <414E1860.45C31401@compsys.to> >Ron Hudson wrote: > Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? Jerome Fine replies: Please define "small"! In terms of actual physical size, probably the PRO325, PRO350 and PRO380 systems are about the same size as a DECmate III system. But if you want a system which is even smaller, then place a Qbus backplane INSIDE a VT100 terminal which then becomes a VT103 computer. Even if you count the Qbus backplane as the PDP-11 portion, overall it is still smaller than the DECmate III or the PRO series. AND since the space occupied by the Qbus backplane in a VT103 is NORMALLY empty, then the actual EXTRA physical size of the PDP-11 portion might be considered to be ZERO. By the way, the Qbus backplane in a VT103 can be either 2 * 4 or 4 * 4. I have seen BOTH, although ONLY one of the former. The 4 * 4 Qbus backplane can hold either 4 quad Qbus boards or 8 dual Qbus boards or any combination. NOTE, however, that the power supply is VERY inadequate - the 5 volt supply has ONLY 16 amps for EVERYTHING - including running the VT100 portion of the system. Even so, as a test case, at one point I had the following boards: KDJ11-BB or M8190-YB or a quad board Cristlin quad 4 MBytes of memory M8029 RX02 controller or a dual board 3rd party MFM controller RQD11-B for an RD53 or a dual board with MSCP emulation and onboard bootstrap DHV11 8 port serial quad board In order to use all 4 MBytes, 4 extra wires were used to modify the DEC backplane to handle all 22 bits. The standard Qbus DEC supplied backplane in a VT103 handles only 18 bits. The extension to 22 bits was also needed to use the Sigma RQD11-B MFM controller, or at least that was what seemed to have been necessary to solve the problem when the standard 18 bit DEC backplane was used. Since I did not run the system for more than 15 minutes, I don't know if the 16 amp limit on the 5 volts was adequate. I placed the RD53 under the monitor inside the VT103. When I wanted to run for a longer period, I removed the DHV11 and ran the RD53 from an external power supply in order to reduce the load on the internal power supply as much as possible. Many other configurations are also possible with a VT103, including the use of a TU-58 drive from DEC - which is NOT recommended since RT-11 takes too long just to boot. In your opinion, since the space inside a VT100 occupied by the Qbus backplane to turn the VT100 into a VT103 (plus a few other needed parts) is normally empty, does a VT103 qualify as a PDP-11 of ZERO size - or is the Qbus backplane the actual size of the PDP-11? From my point of view, the VT100 portion of the VT103 should not be considered to be part of the PDP-11 since some terminal is essential to run any PDP-11 like system, even if it is a separate monitor and keyboard which is used by the PRO350. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Sep 19 18:39:52 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> Message-ID: <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> >John Lawson wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > > If cookies are a worry, do as I do. I run a program called SpyHunter that > > runs on boot up every time. It then offers to scan my compiuter for Spy > > Ware. Since that takes some time I usualy opt only for a scan of my cookies. > > This takes about 2 seconds, no more, and I have a full report on the cookies. > > Since I have 17 cookies that are legitimate I usualy just look at the count. > > If it hasnt increased I go on. BUT there is also displayed a list of any > > dangerous cookies, their properties and who owns them. If the list is blank > > then all is well. If not I stop and delete the offending cookies. The > > software is FREE. > This is a fabulous referral; thank you! I'll check it out as soon as I > get a moment - much appreciated! > > I do run WindowWasher, but it runs on shut-down, and sometimes my > machine is on for a day at a time - quite long hours for a laptop that I > use at the office and at home, too. Jerome Fine replies: I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 19 18:48:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414E1860.45C31401@compsys.to> References: <414E1860.45C31401@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040919234837.GA31185@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:38:08PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Please define "small"! > > In terms of actual physical size, probably the PRO325, PRO350 > and PRO380 systems are about the same size as a DECmate III > system. I would say that the PRO series is about 2x the size of a DECmate III. Perhaps you are thinking of a DECmate II? (it's about the same size as a Rainbow, both of which are, ISTR, slightly smaller than a PRO; I'd measure mine, but they are at home). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Sep-2004 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.5 F (-63.1 C) Windchill -111.1 F (-79.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.9 kts Grid 080 Barometer 689.3 mb (10277. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 19 18:49:02 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today References: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <002401c49ea3$3dad4540$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> congrats on a great haul.... can not get the pictures to load though error msg. is ..... Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /domains/Gal/gallery/classes/User.php on line 90 Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward" To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: Super DEC find today > > Well, today was a truly super find day. > > We (Henk Gooijen and I) collected 2 pallets full of test equipment from HP > at an older warehouse (was used by DEC). What we got : > > 2x Unibus margin testers > 2x Unibus exercisers > 3x RK06/07 drive testers > 2x RM02/3/5 drive testers > 1x PRS01 papertape reader > 2x portable RX02 drives (basically 1 RX02 drive + psu in suitcase) > 1x portable RX01 drive > 2x potrable RX50 drives > 2x RL02 reference packs (these have a blue top and are marked RL02-RF) > 1x set of RL01's containing a full XXDP+ diagnostic kit > 1x RL02 containing XXDP+ > 1x RA60 containing 8xxx/9xxx complete diagnostic kit > 1x RL02 containing 11/750 diagnostics > 2x RA60 data packs > 2x RK07 alignment packs > 2x RK06 alignment packs > 1x RK07 XXDP+ pack > 1x RM02/3 Alignment pack > 1x RM02/3 XXDP+ pack > 1x Kennedy 9900 tapedrive exerciser > 1x Wilson tester (for various SMD/CMD drives, incl CDC's) > 1x RP06 drive tester > 1x RP05/06 alignment toolset > 1x RT02 terminal > 1x HSC50/70 software kit > 3x RK06/07 alignment toolset > 200+ floppies containing XXDP+ (DX/DY) > 70+ floppies containing XXDP+ (RX50) > 10+ tapes containing XXDP+ > 3x head inspector kits. > > Pics to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_album.php > > Ed > -- > edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. > http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. > Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. > '97 TL1000S > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 19 19:00:37 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: Real PDP11 model question" (Sep 19, 15:03) References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <10409200100.ZM1385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 19 2004, 15:03, Zane H. Healy wrote: > To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of > real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a > dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console > port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That > would leave room for one additional dual-height board. What about memory? All the dual-height CPUs including the KDJ11-A are CPU-only. You'd be better using an MXV11-B (you can disable the bootstrap) instead of the DLV11-J. Smallest of all would be a Falcon or one of the other KXT11 series. Everything on one card, and you could add a disk controller if you wanted. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 19:22:46 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <10409200100.ZM1385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <10409200100.ZM1385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >On Sep 19 2004, 15:03, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of >> real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a >> dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console >> port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That >> would leave room for one additional dual-height board. > >What about memory? All the dual-height CPUs including the KDJ11-A are >CPU-only. > >You'd be better using an MXV11-B (you can disable the bootstrap) >instead of the DLV11-J. > >Smallest of all would be a Falcon or one of the other KXT11 series. > Everything on one card, and you could add a disk controller if you >wanted. Ouch! I knew there was something I was forgetting. That's what the remaining slot would have to be filled with, a RAM board. Is the MXV11-B only dual-height? I thought all boards like that are quad-height, but then I don't own any. I discounted the Falcon and the like, as I prefer a faster system. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Sep 19 19:57:54 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> References: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040919204416.0307f270@mail.netsync.net> Good Heavens! What a haul! Super find indeed. Alignment packs, XXDP+, portable RX02 drives - what a nice list. May you and Henk have fun with it all. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 12:13 PM 9/17/04, Edward said something like: >Well, today was a truly super find day. > >We (Henk Gooijen and I) collected 2 pallets full of test equipment from HP >at an older warehouse (was used by DEC). What we got : > >2x Unibus margin testers >2x Unibus exercisers >3x RK06/07 drive testers >2x RM02/3/5 drive testers >1x PRS01 papertape reader >2x portable RX02 drives (basically 1 RX02 drive + psu in suitcase) >1x portable RX01 drive >2x potrable RX50 drives >2x RL02 reference packs (these have a blue top and are marked RL02-RF) >1x set of RL01's containing a full XXDP+ diagnostic kit >1x RL02 containing XXDP+ >1x RA60 containing 8xxx/9xxx complete diagnostic kit >1x RL02 containing 11/750 diagnostics >2x RA60 data packs >2x RK07 alignment packs >2x RK06 alignment packs >1x RK07 XXDP+ pack >1x RM02/3 Alignment pack >1x RM02/3 XXDP+ pack >1x Kennedy 9900 tapedrive exerciser >1x Wilson tester (for various SMD/CMD drives, incl CDC's) >1x RP06 drive tester >1x RP05/06 alignment toolset >1x RT02 terminal >1x HSC50/70 software kit >3x RK06/07 alignment toolset >200+ floppies containing XXDP+ (DX/DY) >70+ floppies containing XXDP+ (RX50) >10+ tapes containing XXDP+ >3x head inspector kits. > >Pics to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_album.php > >Ed >-- >edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. >http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. >Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. >'97 TL1000S Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Sep 19 20:07:34 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Searching for LapTop manual (IBM T21) Message-ID: <90.4bedac76.2e7f8756@aol.com> Do go to the IBM website! All the drivers are there in support and I think the manuals are in the tech database. It is kept up to date. You can search by your model number. Paxton Astoria, OR From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Sep 19 20:14:11 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: > How big is a PDT-11/110? My PDT-11/150 is quite a bit larger than a > DECmate III. Jerome Fine replies: I seem to remember that a DECmate III and the PRO350 are the same size and even look similar??? Is this true? > To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of > real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a > dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console > port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That > would leave room for one additional dual-height board. You'd have to > figure out the power-supply and how to wire up any disk or tape > drives. I'd build something like this, if I had the backplane, but I > don't. You seem to be missing MEMORY??? That would be the fourth dual height board. > The smallest DEC PDP-11 that I'm aware of is the PDP-11/03, but > you've got to add a external drive of some sort. As far as I understand, some backplanes that handle the PDP-11/03 can't handle the 11/23 or the 11/73. But some might be able to handle all 3 CPU types. Are you aware of this problem and which backplanes are in which category? As for an external hard drive, for the VT103, even a 5 1/4" full height hard drive can be placed under the tube - I have done so VERY successfully, although a 3rd party disk controller (dual RQD11-B from Sigma with onboard boot ROMs) was required since an RQDX1,2 quad uses too much power and even the RQDX3 has no boot ROMs. > For people where a system the size of a BA23 is an issue, your best > bet is going to be to simply run under emulation. In my case it > isn't the size of the systems so much that is an issue, it's how much > space all the documentation I have takes up. Even for RT-11, the full set of DOCs is about as large as a VT100 and BA23 combined. And that is just the DOCs for RT-11 and 2 or 3 layered products like FORTRAN. As you mention, I now rarely used the real PDP-11 hardware since E11 run RT-11 at about 15 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 on a 750 MHz Pentium III under Windows 98 SE. Since I am an addict for RT-11, where I run the software is not important. Having E11 is a GREAT improvement - THANK YOU John Wilson!!!!!!!!! at http://www.dbit.com/ Using the emulation solution to run PDP-11 programs will mean, at the very least, that software is just as important as the hardware. BUT, be aware that it may be necessary to use SIMH in the future since E11 is an x86 based solution, as far as I understand, unless John Wilson ports E11 to a new platform. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Sep 19 20:16:52 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: QBus chassis and backplanes References: <10409181804.ZM29808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <414E2F84.84F04CD6@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > In view of the recent discussion about which backplane(s) go with which > CPU(s) and some similar discussion on alt.sys.pdp11, I've collected > together some of my data on backplanes and chassis. They're in a text > file at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > If anyone wishes to add to that, feel free to send me information :-) Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure just where to add the information about a VT103. I suspect that the backplane in use is the 2 * 4 (H9281-AB) or a 4 * 4 (H9270). Along with a few other bits of hardware, including a fan and a better power supply, a VT103 is almost identical to the VT100 upon which the VT103 is based. And since the location in a VT103 where the backplane is located is empty in a VT100, it is possible to say that a VT103 is the same physical size as a VT100. It is even possible to place a hard disk drive under the tube (there is sufficient room for a full height 5 1/4" hard disk drive, let alone a SCSI 3 1/2" hard disk drive), but placing a hard disk drive there is certainly not a DEC solution. Back in the 1980s, DSD (Data System Design) sold many VT103 systems with a DSD 880/30 combination which emulated 3 * RL02 disk drive and single RX02 floppy drive. The controller interface was a single dual Qbus board which contained boot ROMs as well. Normally an M8186-AA (dual 11/23) was used, but an M8192-AA (dual 11/73) was also possible. Since the original backplane was only 18 bits, only 256 KBytes could be used. But after the backplane was enhanced to be 22 bits, up to a full 4 MBytes could be used, although the DSD 880/30 controller interface could only handle 18 bit addresses up to 256 KBytes. Under RT-11, it is possible to add a bounce buffer for both the DLX.SYS and DYX.SYS device drivers, although I am aware of it being done ONLY for the DYX.SYS device driver. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Sep 19 20:20:40 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040919211828.04711e10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jerome H. Fine may have mentioned these words: >I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order >to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or >WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is >there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs >and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? We've had good luck with Spybot Search and Destroy: http://security.kolla.de/ and the new version of ad-aware (SE 1.04) is excellent: http://www.lavasoftusa.com/ If by chance I should try to bring this ontopic, the second link (LavaSoft) made games for the Commodore 64. If you look around their website, you'll find that they released all of their C64 software to freeware. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 19 20:52:11 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040919211828.04711e10@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Sep 19, 4 09:20:40 pm" Message-ID: <200409200152.SAA15310@floodgap.com> > If by chance I should try to bring this ontopic, the second link (LavaSoft) > made games for the Commodore 64. If you look around their website, you'll > find that they released all of their C64 software to freeware. I can't find that ... got a direct URL? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ---------------- From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Sep 19 20:38:41 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question Message-ID: I had a couple of SMS boxes in my warehouse that had hard drive and a floppy drive and I think a 4 slot qbus backplane. One had 8 inch drives and the other 5 1/4 inch drives. When I got them I think they had 11/23+ CPUs. They were 19" rackmount and about 5 inches tall. Fairly deep as thery were designed for 8 inch drives in front with the cardcage in back. I think you could put an 11/73 card in one. Zane, did you buy those from me years ago? They sold in one of my final warehouse sales. Paxton Astoria, OR From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 19 20:54:32 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> Message-ID: <414E3858.5060007@cableone.net> http://www.enigmasoftwaregroup.com/ is the URL for SpyHunter. There is a free version that makes you do all the footwork for deleting, but it does find them for you and if you are adept at DOS or Windows Explorer you can do the removal yourself. If you have $29.99 to burn the full version will do the removal as well. http://www.majorgeeks.com/download4241.html is a URL where you can get a free download of Spyware Doctor. As above the full version has to be paid for. I have four different ones that I use to scan because it seems NONE of them gets everything. Then I use DOS to purge the rascals when found. Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>John Lawson wrote: >> >> > > > >>>On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: >>>If cookies are a worry, do as I do. I run a program called SpyHunter that >>>runs on boot up every time. It then offers to scan my compiuter for Spy >>>Ware. Since that takes some time I usualy opt only for a scan of my cookies. >>>This takes about 2 seconds, no more, and I have a full report on the cookies. >>>Since I have 17 cookies that are legitimate I usualy just look at the count. >>>If it hasnt increased I go on. BUT there is also displayed a list of any >>>dangerous cookies, their properties and who owns them. If the list is blank >>>then all is well. If not I stop and delete the offending cookies. The >>>software is FREE. >>> >>> >> This is a fabulous referral; thank you! I'll check it out as soon as I >>get a moment - much appreciated! >> >> I do run WindowWasher, but it runs on shut-down, and sometimes my >>machine is on for a day at a time - quite long hours for a laptop that I >>use at the office and at home, too. >> >> > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order >to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or >WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is >there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs >and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine >-- >If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail >address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk >e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be >obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the >'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 19 21:04:57 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040920020457.GA11490@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 09:14:11PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Jerome Fine replies: > > I seem to remember that a DECmate III and the PRO350 are the > same size and even look similar??? Is this true? Nope. The DECmate III is about the size of a MicroVAX 2000, approx (from memory) 5" tall, 9" wide, 12" deep, *much* smaller than, say, full-sized desktop like a PC 5150 (original IBM PC). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77.7 F (-61.0 C) Windchill -112.6 F (-80.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.80 kts Grid 062 Barometer 688.9 mb (10293. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From AppleTO at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 22:04:59 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would not care. It is also unfair to say the floppy disk is disappearing when CD-ROMs/CD-Rs/CD-RWs are serving similar purposes: to distribute and install software, to exchange data between machines or people, and to backup data. The main difference is the technology. Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the article implies. They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that. Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common. Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.) I couldn't care less if they disappeared, because all of those different formats make it next to impossible to transfer data between different computers. Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well then I would be concerned. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 22:09:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> Message-ID: >I seem to remember that a DECmate III and the PRO350 are the >same size and even look similar??? Is this true? The DECmate II, DEC Professional and the DEC Rainbow all used the same style case. The DECmate III, and III+ use the same style as the VAXstation 2000, and some external RZ5* SCSI drives, and the external TK50 drives. >Even for RT-11, the full set of DOCs is about as large as a VT100 >and BA23 combined. And that is just the DOCs for RT-11 and >2 or 3 layered products like FORTRAN. But when you're like me and have 3 different sets of RT-11 doc's, 1 1/2 sets of RSX-11M doc's, an Ultrix-11 set, a RSTS/E doc set, as well as a lot of hardware doc's, and a few VMS Doc sets... All this takes the more space than a few racks! Of course then there are my 3 racks, various chassis, and boxes of spare boards. >Using the emulation solution to run PDP-11 programs will mean, >at the very least, that software is just as important as the hardware. >BUT, be aware that it may be necessary to use SIMH in the >future since E11 is an x86 based solution, as far as I understand, >unless John Wilson ports E11 to a new platform. I'm pretty much to the point I agree that Emulation is the best way to go. It generates less heat and noise, and takes less electricity and room. In the hobbyist arena, very few people need specialized interfaces. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 19 22:20:13 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> Message-ID: <414E4C6D.10803@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'm pretty much to the point I agree that Emulation is the best way to > go. It generates less heat and noise, and takes less electricity and > room. In the hobbyist arena, very few people need specialized interfaces. Not allways is faster better, remember as you get faster lots more bugs develop because of timing problems. The other problem is you don't have that many single board computers, that have a reasonably fast cpu on them at reasonable cost. > Zane > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 22:23:21 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I had a couple of SMS boxes in my warehouse that had hard drive and a floppy >drive and I think a 4 slot qbus backplane. One had 8 inch drives and the other >5 1/4 inch drives. When I got them I think they had 11/23+ CPUs. They were >19" rackmount and about 5 inches tall. Fairly deep as thery were >designed for 8 >inch drives in front with the cardcage in back. I think you could put an 11/73 >card in one. > >Zane, did you buy those from me years ago? They sold in one of my final >warehouse sales. > >Paxton >Astoria, OR Yes, I got these, but sold them after being contacted by someone that needed them. They were a 2 or 3U rackmount, so basically they're the samme size as a BA23. Nice enough systems, but a bit of a pain as the disk and I/O was all proprietary SMS off of the Q-Bus. Since they used MFM HD's they're not something I'd really recommend. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 19 23:16:42 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <20040919234837.GA31185@bos7.spole.gov> References: <414E1860.45C31401@compsys.to> <20040919234837.GA31185@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Sep 19, 2004, at 4:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 07:38:08PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> Ron Hudson wrote: >> >>> Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> Please define "small"! Around the same size as a Decmate III, from pictures I have seen it looks like it could be about 1'wide x 5" tall x 2' deep, somewhat the same size as a Mac2ci. I have a shelf near my desk that a PC sized machine would fit on. >> >> In terms of actual physical size, probably the PRO325, PRO350 >> and PRO380 systems are about the same size as a DECmate III >> system. > > I would say that the PRO series is about 2x the size of a DECmate III. > Perhaps you are thinking of a DECmate II? (it's about the same size > as a Rainbow, both of which are, ISTR, slightly smaller than a PRO; > I'd measure mine, but they are at home). > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Sep-2004 > 23:40 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.5 F (-63.1 C) Windchill -111.1 F > (-79.5 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 5.9 kts Grid 080 Barometer 689.3 mb > (10277. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 19 23:22:59 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald Wayne wrote: > If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would > not care. I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz, 768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA) and some combination of the BIOS and Win98 was unhappy. I had numerous issues of timeouts and slow operation because it was waiting on a non-existent A: drive. Simply disabling floppies in the BIOS was not adequate. My problems ended when I _added_ a 3.5" drive and enabled it. I know there are other systems that can run normally with no floppies, so I'm reluctant to blame the operating system only. With the exception of BIOS updates and low-level hard disk diagnostics (which can be done from CD-ROM anyway, now), I don't use one floppy per year for data transfer on post-classic machines. The capacity is too small for too many things. > Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the article implies. > They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that. That's quite true. The authors (and most of the readers) think that there are only 3.5" disks and this ancient format on 5.25". > Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there > were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common. > Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.) I have plenty of 8" drives and media, mostly for RX01 and RX02, but a smattering of CP/M disks, too. I don't happen to own any 3" disks, but I know they exist. Never seen or heard of 12" floppies. The oldest devices I know about are mid-1970s, the ones used to load IBM mainframe microcode. I thought those were 8". > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well > then I would be concerned. The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of serial-interfaces devices, and from what I've seen in the LCDproc user/developer community as well as the CBM-interface-devices-of-modern- manufacture like the C2N232 (Atmel processor that emulates CBM tape protocol on one end, RS-232 on the other), USB-to-serial dongles are _not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be hard five years from now. I lament the passing of the RS-232 port much more than the passing of floppies. I can continue to do many interesting things with a PDP-8 and its RX01/RX02 drives _and_ a modernish machine as the console that may or may not be easy with a USB-only machine in the future. ObFolklore: working at a small startup in 2000, I had to reconfigure our Cisco router. Normally, that entails dragging a laptop in the server closet, balancing it on something and trying to juggle commands and a laptop at the same time. Once, I whipped out my Palm III, its travel cable, and a Cisco RJ-45 serial cable and fired up one of the many VT100 emulators for PalmOS. My boss, the CIO, walked in while I was doing all of this. He asked why I had a Palm Pilot hooked to the router - I told him I was reconfiguring the router, per his request. He was stunned at my approach, but this is the same guy who was stunned when I loaded a DEC diagnostic papertape for my -8/L with a printed date on the label that was before he was born. ISTR that all the newer generation PDAs have USB, not serial, sync ports. I have no idea if it's possible to use an adapter on them to use them for portable terminals, etc., but I don't think so. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.5 F (-65.4 C) Windchill -117.8 F (-83.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.6 kts Grid 080 Barometer 688.1 mb (10321. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 19 23:31:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040920043137.GB22079@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 08:09:28PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The DECmate II, DEC Professional and the DEC Rainbow all used the > same style case. Agreed. Might not be identical in size, but same style for sure. > The DECmate III, and III+ use the same style as the > VAXstation 2000, and some external RZ5* SCSI drives, and the external > TK50 drives. Not so sure about this one. I disagree on the drives vs CPUs, at least in the case of the external TK50s. I have several of these 'Leprechaun' boxes (most with dead PSUs, but that's another story). They are only wide enough to take a slab PSU mounted up on edge next to a 5.25" device on a BA-23-type skid, with up to 3 ports on the back, directly behind the drive. One or two are external TK50s, one is an external RX50 unit for my RUX50 controller (purchased new for an 11/750 by the previous owner). The DECmate III(+)/MicroVAX 2000 case has a boxier PSU and is wider as a result, in addition to taller, since the main board is above the drive, making the the ports stick out over a cutout on the back of the case and face the floor, not the wall. I will agree that these are all of similar 'shoebox' proportions, not 'desktop' proportions like the DECmate II or PRO, but there are enough differences that I hesitate to call them the same style as each other. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.7 F (-63.2 C) Windchill -116.7 F (-82.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 078 Barometer 688 mb (10325. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Sep 19 23:44:48 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920003746.00ae3f50@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ethan Dicks may have mentioned these words: >That's quite true. The authors (and most of the readers) think that >there are only 3.5" disks and this ancient format on 5.25". Should I send 'em a picture of a 2.0" disk? ;-) >The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of >serial-interfaces devices, and from what I've seen in the LCDproc >user/developer community as well as the CBM-interface-devices-of-modern- >manufacture like the C2N232 (Atmel processor that emulates CBM tape >protocol on one end, RS-232 on the other), USB-to-serial dongles are >_not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are >modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered >under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they >are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many >things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be >hard five years from now. Some are better than others, but you are right - they are rarely a "seamless" solution by any means. I have a belkin adapter that so far has done everything I ask of it - Winders & Linux. I've used it with my Tandy 200, a couple of routers, and with my Philips NeoPronto remote control. It hasn't stranded me *yet* -> but I've not tested it under "strenuous" conditions, either... >ISTR that all the newer generation PDAs have USB, not serial, sync >ports. I have no idea if it's possible to use an adapter on them >to use them for portable terminals, etc., but I don't think so. Altho it's not universal, quite a few of them will! Head over to Bitchin 100 (www.bitchin100.com) there are a lot of *active* projects for Model 100/102/200/NEC 8201A laptops there... on of which is by John R. Hogerhuis - he's designing a Desklink-like emulator for palms, and I guess several USB-based palmOS devices need only a special cable or cradle to achieve RS232 output, and seem to work in a totally compatible manner to the older palmOS serial interfaces. So things aren't quite so dreary on that front... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dan at ekoan.com Sun Sep 19 23:52:23 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Any Honeywell fans? Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040920004402.0403d4b0@mail.marcal.com> For those that have asked, I've put up some photos of the Honeywell training materials I have. You can see them at www.decodesystems.com/honeywell-training.html I haven't set a price or anything, but I am happy to take offers. Cheers, Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 19 23:57:23 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well > > then I would be concerned. > >The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of I'm concerned as well, I view a Serial port as a necessity. I've hardly every used a Parallel port, but I need Serial ports! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 19 23:40:27 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for anything In-Reply-To: <1095635838.23630.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 19, 4 11:17:18 pm Message-ID: > > Right. The Maplin one (Published in the Maplin Magazine) used only the > > user port IIRC. > > I've got another one (decoder only) which looks very Maplin-ey. That one > just has a pair of SPDT switches on the front along with a meter marked > 0-10, whilst at the back there's just power, and a pair of DIN sockets - I will ahve to dig out the Maplin docs. IIRC that one had a 20 pin ribbon cable which connected to a Beeb user port (or to a input port card for an Amstrad CPC...) The DIN sockets do sound Maplin-like, but I thought they were on the receiver. One linked to the decoder, the other to a tape recorder (you recorded the analogue signals from the satellite, then played them back into the decoder later on). > both 5 pin, although one's arranged in a 'circular' pattern and the > other's more like an 'H'. No labels on any of that. Maplin sold PCBs (with silk-screen overlay) and printed case panels IIRC. This could be a homebrew copy, or it might (more likely) be another magazine project. > > I do have a 'real' weather satellite receiver system. It came from > > ic.ac.uk, and the bit I really wanted (and got) were the 3 I2S image [...] > I'd forgotten you had that. Do you have sufficient software to make it > do something as a complete system if a suitable VAX were found, or has Alas not. I got the I2S driver tape I think, but nothing more :-( As regards 'a suitable VAX', I have Unibus interface cards for the I2S machines (hex-height, but with the A/B connector corner cut away so they'll fit over an M930 terminator or M920 jumper), and some 'GPIT' interface boxes (2U rack) that connect to DL11-W or DLV11-W cards. So just about any Unibus or Qbus VAX could be used... -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 20 00:01:53 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net> <414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> Message-ID: <414E6441.8000307@gjcp.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order > to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or > WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is > there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs > and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? > As has been said before, take a good look at Mozilla Firefox. It's largely immune to all the scumware that attacks IE (dodgy ActiveX controls, start page hijacking, blocks popups). Everyone I've recommended it to has given up on IE except for sites that *must* use IE - hopefully before long the worse offenders (are you listening, Halifax/Bank of Scotland and Scottish Power?) get a small amount of clue and fix their websites. Might be worth replacing Outlook Express with Mozilla Thunderbird too, if you use it. Its builtin spam filtering has made my girlfriend's parents email usable again. Well worth the time to download. Gordon. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 20 00:04:05 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <014201c49ecf$40c70460$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "Ronald Wayne" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:22 AM Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald Wayne wrote: > > If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would > > not care. > > I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz, > 768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA) and some combination of the BIOS > and Win98 was unhappy. I had numerous issues of timeouts and slow > operation because it was waiting on a non-existent A: drive. Simply > disabling floppies in the BIOS was not adequate. My problems ended > when I _added_ a 3.5" drive and enabled it. I know there are other > systems that can run normally with no floppies, so I'm reluctant to > blame the operating system only. > Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME have problems with vcache if you have 768MB of ram or more that can cause hangs on bootup along with other problems. http://godzilla.kennedykrieger.org/~jgillen/computer/pcmemory.html "Out of Memory" Error Messages with Large Amounts of RAM Installed -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information in this article applies to: a.. Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition b.. Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition c.. Microsoft Windows 98 d.. Microsoft Windows 95 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- SYMPTOMS If a computer that is running any of the versions of Windows listed above contains more than 512 megabytes (for example, 768 megabytes) of physical memory (RAM) installed, you may experience one or more of the following symptoms: a.. You may be unable to open an MS-DOS session (or command prompt) while Windows is running. Attempts to do so may generate the following error message: There is not enough memory available to run this program. Quit one or more programs, and then try again. b.. The computer may stop responding (hang) while Windows is starting, or halt and display the following error message: Insufficient memory to initialize windows. Quit one or more memory-resident programs or remove unnecessary utilities from your Config.sys and Autoexec.bat files, and restart your computer. CAUSE The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes) known as the system arena. On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena, leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine). From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 20 02:03:21 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: Real PDP11 model question" (Sep 19, 17:22) References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <10409200100.ZM1385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10409200803.ZM1686@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 19 2004, 17:22, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Ouch! I knew there was something I was forgetting. That's what the > remaining slot would have to be filled with, a RAM board. Is the > MXV11-B only dual-height? I thought all boards like that are > quad-height, but then I don't own any. No, both the QBus multifunction modules are dual-height (MXV11-A and MXV11-B). I've seen a small machine built this way: KDF11-A, MXV11-A, and a Plessey RXV21, uncased but in a small frame, used with a single boxed portable 8" floppy drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 20 02:23:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: Real PDP11 model question" (Sep 19, 21:14) References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <414E2EE3.48CDE254@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10409200823.ZM1702@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 19 2004, 21:14, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > As far as I understand, some backplanes that handle the PDP-11/03 > can't handle the 11/23 or the 11/73. But some might be able to > handle all 3 CPU types. Are you aware of this problem and which > backplanes are in which category? All I can think of is the obvious -- that you couldn't put some of the quad-height devices in a serpentine backplane, but that isn't an 11/03 vs. 11/23 issue. There are backplanes (H9273-A and H9275-A) where you are supposed to change jumpers. Unless someone has meant that the 11/03 is 16-bit and the others are 22-bit, but they still work in 18-bit backplanes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Sep 20 05:35:13 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) Message-ID: <28398593.1095676513773.JavaMail.root@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the serial port and parallel ports are being replaced by USB ports... >Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well >then I would be concerned. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 20 05:56:10 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable In-Reply-To: <4274EE26-03AB-11D9-BB57-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040920033645.0346bcf0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I was just digging through the box of cards I bought last Friday, and reading email, and its funny how things go. Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI card that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines at once combining them together for higher bandwidth.Unless there is a secret I don't know about, this card will never be used again. It fairly makes my collector skin crawl. At the same time someone asked me if any Token Ring cards were in the batch, and that started me off looking at Token Ring, and I was a little shocked to see that Token Ring isn't dead. Madge is still making cards, there is a huge oversupply of older used cards, but the neatest newest are also still selling. Weird aint it? From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Mon Sep 20 06:47:11 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable References: <20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov><20040911041520.GA25876@bos7.spole.gov> <5.1.0.14.0.20040920033645.0346bcf0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <001b01c49f07$9180c7a0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Geeze. Don't talk to me about token ring. I'm coming to the end of removing it from the company I work at... all IBM and Madge stuff. Those madge cards ain't cheap neither! Take Care, mark "But Schindler is bueno! Senior Burns is El Diablo!" -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:56 AM Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable > I was just digging through the box of cards I bought last Friday, and > reading email, and its funny how things go. > > Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI card > that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines at once combining them > together for higher bandwidth.Unless there is a secret I don't know about, > this card will never be used again. It fairly makes my collector skin crawl. > > At the same time someone asked me if any Token Ring cards were in the > batch, and that started me off looking at Token Ring, and I was a little > shocked to see that Token Ring isn't dead. Madge is still making cards, > there is a huge oversupply of older used cards, but the neatest newest are > also still selling. > > Weird aint it? > > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 06:55:38 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: More VT520 terminals for sale Message-ID: I've posted a couple more DEC VT520 terminals on the Vintage Computer Marketplace: http://marketplace.vintage.org $25 each...such a bargain! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 20 07:44:09 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920003746.00ae3f50@mail.30below.com> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040920003746.00ae3f50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920073905.10756410@pc> At 11:44 PM 9/19/2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. [...] >>USB-to-serial dongles are >>_not_ a seamless solution. The two arenas this is cropping up are >>modern Macs and modern laptops. While these devices are not covered >>under the 10-year umbrella, they will be at some point, and when they >>are, they will _not_ have native serial ports and there will be many >>things that we do with ease now, with 5-year-old machines that we be >>hard five years from now. > >Some are better than others, but you are right - they are rarely a "seamless" solution by any means. I have a belkin adapter that so far has done everything I ask of it - Winders & Linux. I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second brand (Amb-something) on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine. There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And we'll be able to insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around. But I'd love to have a USB-to-floppy connection, too. And we'd all love it if it was 8", 5 1/4", 3 1/2" and 2" compatible. :-) - John From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 20 08:48:10 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:18 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920073905.10756410@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second brand (Amb-something) > on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for > my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop > tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard > USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine. Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I have serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB thingies, and they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop. > There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And we'll be able to > insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around. Yup. > But I'd love to have a USB-to-floppy connection, too. And we'd all > love it if it was 8", 5 1/4", 3 1/2" and 2" compatible. :-) I have one of those. Well, two actually.. one is a regular USB floppy thinger that came with the lappy (Compaq Armada) and another one which is larger, but seems to be featuring a regular floppy interface connector on the inside, so it *should* be possible to operate that with non-3.5" drives with some mods.. --f From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 20 09:01:10 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920085927.05df3e18@pc> At 03:02 PM 9/19/2004, Sellam wrote: >I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine >(presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a >message. I'll try again later today. I stopped short of suggesting that we compose a group card, but in these situations I think it would make more sense to pass along a postal address where someone could send a note or a card if they like. - John From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 09:02:15 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Paging Fred N. van Kempen Message-ID: <20040920140215.94628.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> Fred, please contact me re: the Rainbow Doc Set. I haven't heard anything for 14 days and am going to relist them. Thanks. rich __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Sep 20 09:25:38 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP >>> systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I have >>> serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB thingies, and >>> they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop. Blow UP??? Or just not work????? From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 20 09:16:30 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Paging Fred N. van Kempen In-Reply-To: <20040920140215.94628.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > Fred, please contact me re: the Rainbow Doc Set. I haven't heard anything for > 14 days and am going to relist them. Huh? Although I am travelling lots for customers right now, I did not see any email. Lemme drop you a note off-list... --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 20 09:20:52 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP > >>> systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I have > >>> serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB thingies, and > >>> they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop. > > Blow UP??? Or just not work????? Well. The drivers kinda blow up, resulting in funnyness and general blue screens :) (it WOULD be fun if the dongles actually blew up...) --f From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 20 09:39:26 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920073905.10756410@pc> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040920003746.00ae3f50@mail.30below.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040920073905.10756410@pc> Message-ID: <414EEB9E.3050604@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > > I recently tried a Belkin USB-to-serial and a second brand (Amb-something) > on my Win2000 box in hopes of delivering an extra serial port for > my old Palm III. No go! Both blue-screened when Palm Desktop > tried to access the serial port. I suspect that either my motherboard > USB is blown or the drivers didn't like a dual-processor machine. Try Keyspan. Depending on what you need, they go reasonably cheaply on eBay. I've used one to provide VTserver, and have quite a few friends who use theirs for console access to Sparcs, RS/6000, and Alphas from portless laptops. > There are PCMCIA to serial adapters, no? And we'll be able to > insert PCI serial cards as long as PCI is around. Be very careful - look up some user experiences - with the PCI serial adapters. Some of them are very Windows-only. Doc From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 09:39:33 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Paging Fred N. van Kempen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040920143933.19210.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Fred. I have sent several emails with no response. I have just sent another private email directly to your address. Please let me know if you don't see it. rich --- "Fred N. van Kempen" wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > > > Fred, please contact me re: the Rainbow Doc Set. I haven't heard anything > for > > 14 days and am going to relist them. > Huh? > > Although I am travelling lots for customers right now, I did not > see any email. Lemme drop you a note off-list... > > --f > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 20 09:41:22 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920093938.10bad840@pc> At 09:20 AM 9/20/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >> >>> Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP >> >>> systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been tested? So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an expensive USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos, are they actually made by reputable expensive companies? There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Sep 20 09:55:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> > Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP >>> > systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. I >>> > have serial, parallel, ISDN, Ethernet and WiFi USB >>> > thingies, and they all work fine on my (Win2K) laptop. >>> > >>> > Blow UP??? Or just not work????? >>> >>> Well. The drivers kinda blow up, resulting in funnyness >>> and general blue screens :) >>> >>> (it WOULD be fun if the dongles actually blew up...) >>> No, No No! Then the "wonderful folks" at airport security would begin confiscating them! From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 20 09:46:44 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Hard disk recovery recommendations Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920094134.10bb3320@pc> >From the recent discussion about data recovery from hard drives, was there a recommendation for a company that performs well at fair prices? I'd like to keep a company in mind for recommending to clients when they're in dire straits. I looked around on the web for resources regarding data recovery, and by far most of the words out there are related to sales pitches for the companies offering the service. I don't think I found any less-potentially-biased info from amateurs. Safe for amateurs like us: If the drive is working, data recovery tools like http://www.r-tt.com/ Software-based tools like SpinRite www.grc.com Logic-board swapping between identical models of HD Not safe or smart for amateurs: Platter swapping - John From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 20 09:49:16 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920093938.10bad840@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been tested? Because the cheap-brands market is basically 99% single-CPU systems, and therefore the companies developing the support software for em dont bother testing that. > So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an expensive > USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably > and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos, > are they actually made by reputable expensive companies? > There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about? Dunno the brands I have, can look em up. I do have a Keyspan serial one, too (as another listmember does), and that works fine. Ethernet and WiFi are Linksys and Cisco. Dunno about the parallel and ISDN, probably Xircom. --f From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 20 09:55:18 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920093938.10bad840@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040920093938.10bad840@pc> Message-ID: <414EEF56.7080401@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 09:20 AM 9/20/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >> >> >>>>>>Most cheap-brand card drivers have not been tested with SMP >>>>>>systems, and, often, will blow up on said systems. > > > And why is SMP so rare that it wouldn't have been tested? > So if Belkin is too cheap-brand, who makes an expensive > USB to serial converter that'll perform more reliably > and where can I buy it? For many of these odd gizmos, > are they actually made by reputable expensive companies? > There's a Cisco USB-to-serial adapter I don't know about? Keyspan. Their stuff isn't horribly expensive, but it seems to Just Work. Belkin is a fairly decent brand, but most of their stuff is rebadged something else, and it's definitely oriented to consumer-level Windows users. In my experience, the package usually doesn't address non-Windows support, and there's a reason for that. Doc From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 20 10:05:36 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Please Help Identify Mystery ISA Card References: Message-ID: <414EF1C0.B8E7FCD8@msm.umr.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > > It is from Maynard Electronics, 1988. The large socketed chip says: > > Maynard was swallowed by Tecmar, the the whole was swalloed by Rexon. I think that they were rolled into something else later. all those were makers of proprietary interfaced tape backup systems, or such, which either had parallel port, floppy extension or replacement interfaces, or scsi interfaces. none had documented interfades, though if you can find on the unit where the scsi chip's registers appear, and then trace back from the dma lines on the ISA edge card which dma's are connected, you can probably write or adapter one if one exits for the wdc 33C93. most likely place for inspiration would be in early copies of Linux, for which people may have written drivers. those drivers are usually good sources of info on the chips, as well as code that can be used if you are doing GPL-able or for your own amusement work. jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Sep 20 10:54:41 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: BC11Y-05? In-Reply-To: <200409172327.i8HNRKlw030681@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200409172327.i8HNRKlw030681@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1095695680.6001.111.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> On Fri, 2004-09-17 at 16:27, Brad Parker wrote: > I need one about 5' long. I think that's a BC11Y-05. Basically to go > between two unibus boxes sitting next to each other on the floor :-) > It's a BC11A-05. I think 5' will be a bit short (ie if you pull one box forward on its rails, the cable will be under a fair bit of tension). You'll want a 6' or 8' long one (ie BC11A-06 or BC11A-08). -- TTFN - Guy From cb at mythtech.net Mon Sep 20 12:04:45 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) Message-ID: >Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had >floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say >this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest >of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive. Heck the last two PC's I bought not only didn't have floppy drives, but completely lacked floppy controllers, so I couldn't add one if I even wanted to. They also lacked on board Serial and Parallel. Everything was expected to be done via USB. -chris From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 20 12:22:34 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <002401c49ea3$3dad4540$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> References: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> <002401c49ea3$3dad4540$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <24610.62.177.191.201.1095700954.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > congrats on a great haul.... > can not get the pictures to load though error msg. is ..... > Yup, I made an error. The link should be http://www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album14 Ed G. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 20 12:34:29 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable Message-ID: <0409201734.AA04371@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mike Ford wrote: > Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI card > that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines [...] Did you say ISDN *Primary* Rate Interface (PRI), the big expensive one that carries 23 (in North America) or 30 (in Europe) B channels, NOT the 2B+D Basic Rate Interface (BRI)? So it's basically a channelised T1/E1 card, right? Do you know if it can do E1 or just T1? If it can do E1, my friend Stacy Minkin in Uzbekistan was looking for a PCI channelised E1 card and probably still is. It isn't ISDN, though, just a channelised E1. He wants to connect an E1 line from their old municipal telephone switch (classic traditional telephony, pre-ISDN, pre-other modern innovations) to an Asterisk Linux-based VoIP gateway. MS From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 20 12:54:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) Message-ID: <200409201754.KAA01744@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >> Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well >> then I would be concerned. > >The serial port _is_ disappearing. I am concerned. I have a number of Hi I'm starting to have what I call linkage machines. I have a lap top with a CDROM drive that I tranfer stuff to a desk top with CROM and floppies. From the floppy, I go to an older lap top to send serial to my older machines. I expect someday I'll have a DVD writer to talk to a machine that only uses DVD's. It is the weakest chain linking but what else to do? Dwight From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 14:08:18 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <200409170723.17315.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200409170723.17315.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1095707298.5051.0.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-17 at 07:23, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Congratulations on a great rescue!!!! Wow, I'll say...! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 20 14:19:15 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Teledisk References: <3.0.6.32.20040917115757.0093ee10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <008001c49dc8$9537d220$5b4f0945@thegoodw> Message-ID: <414F2D33.70E0BCD6@msm.umr.edu> teledisk is quite cranky about running on processors that are too fast if you get the wrong version and the wrong system together. also have you run it on anything that is USB attached? I'd be interested if any of the trick stuff to adjust track sizes, and other copy protect override features work on the USB version. jim From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 20 15:00:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Teledisk Message-ID: <200409202000.NAA01812@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I very much doubt teledisk would work through USB. In order to work, it has to be very personal with the controller. Dwight >From: "jim stephens" > >teledisk is quite cranky about running on processors that are too fast >if you get the wrong version and the wrong system together. > >also have you run it on anything that is USB attached? I'd be interested >if any of the trick stuff to adjust track sizes, and other copy protect >override features work on the USB version. > >jim > > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 14:58:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had > floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say > this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest > of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive. I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course). I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 15:02:32 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: LGP-21 photos, including memory Message-ID: <1095710551.5051.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> Sloooowly I get stuff up on the website... http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/Photos/index.html This URL is in the index, but I've added some photos. If you scroll down there's some photos of the memory, heads, platter, scratches, the caplugs, etc. (After careful dust removal, I keep a lint-free washed towel over the top of the memory assembly. No sense inviting more dust in there.) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 15:04:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040919211828.04711e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jerome H. Fine may have mentioned these words: > > >I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order > >to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or > >WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is > >there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs > >and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? > > We've had good luck with Spybot Search and Destroy: > http://security.kolla.de/ > > and the new version of ad-aware (SE 1.04) is excellent: > > http://www.lavasoftusa.com/ You can't rely just on those two tools. To properly clean a system, I start with AdAware, then run Spybot S&D, then run CWShredder, then run HijackThis! to do any final clean-up (HijackThis! is a manual process and you must know what you're doing). The first three programs only get most/some of the problems but not all, so it's important to run all of them, IMO. Given that there are now programs purporting to be Spyware scrubbers but that are actually spyware infectors(!) I would only trust the above-mentioned programs. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 15:06:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the article implies. > They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that. > Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there > were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common. I have never heard of a 12" floppy, let alone heard that it is common. Have you got references/pictures? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 15:25:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would > not care. For that matter, most of US could disappear without anybody noticing nor caring. If not for Frank's alert investigation, we wouldn't have even known about Don's death for a long time. > It is also unfair to say the floppy disk is disappearing > when CD-ROMs/CD-Rs/CD-RWs are serving similar purposes: to distribute > and install software, to exchange data between machines or people, and > to backup data. The main difference is the technology. That's right. CDR/RW is the current "floppy" for many systems. and USB flash drive is the current "floppy for many others. > Besides, floppy diskettes are not as uniform as the article implies. > They seem to suggest that there are two sizes, then leave it at that. > Well, there were different densities and encodings too. Oh, and there > were more than two physical sizes. (IIRC, 8" and 12" was common. > Then there is all of the similar-but-failed technologies.) 12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common. I'd gladly trade a 3" and a 3.25" for one. The common sizes were 8 (with a few physical variations), 5.25 (with many physical variations), 3", 3.25", 3.5" (with a few evolutionary steps, and 2 main physical varieties), 2", 2.5", 2.9", 3.9". In addition to the physical varieties, there are thousands of physically similar disks with mutually incompatible formats. > I couldn't > care less if they disappeared, because all of those different formats > make it next to impossible to transfer data between different > computers. YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn insensitive towards those of us who DO need and use them. During the day today, I will use four to eight different machines, only one of which is mine, and therefore permissible to make any changes to. Some have USB ports; some do not. Some have ZIP drives (mostly 100M); some do not. Hardly any have CDR or CDRW. But they ALL have floppy drives, including the one month old HPaq machines. I WILL be using floppies today. > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well > then I would be concerned. Be converned. Be very concerned. RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Sep 20 15:39:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Sellam Ismail, >>> >>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the quickest and >>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course). >>> >>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files. Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 20 15:46:25 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: BC11Y-05? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:54:41 PDT." <1095695680.6001.111.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200409202046.i8KKkPrs003256@mwave.heeltoe.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >It's a BC11A-05. I think 5' will be a bit short (ie if you pull one box >forward on its rails, the cable will be under a fair bit of tension). >You'll want a 6' or 8' long one (ie BC11A-06 or BC11A-08). thank for the part #'s; and a good point. well, I have a 1.5' now, so 5' would be a luxury :-) I had not planned to use it with boxes in a rack, but rather boxes just open on the floor, side by side... (I bet you never thought of using the back half of you 11/34a unibus as an extension for your vax 11/730 unibus, eh? :-) works in a pinch :-) Anyone have a BC11A-05, -06 or -08 they'd like to part with? -brad From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 16:28:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <014201c49ecf$40c70460$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > CAUSE > The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the > maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows > starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access > a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size > if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses > from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes) known as the system > arena. > > On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be > large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena, > leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as > opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine). Bill Gates must've thought that, surely, no one will ever need more than 640MB of memory! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Sep 20 16:39:47 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: Message-ID: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> >Ron Hudson wrote: > Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? Jerome Fine replies: I asked this question at the bottom of one of my replies, but it seems that it has not been addressed at all. I presume that even a DECmate III requires a user interface (normally called a terminal / monitor+keyboard) to be useful! Based on that assumption, may the user interface be considered as a separate piece of hardware? (a) If the answer is yes, then can it also be assumed that anything placed inside the terminal does NOT add to the overall size? (b) If the answer is NO, then can it be assumed that the total combination of (terminal + DECmate III) is the actual size to be compared? Until the above assumptions can be clarified, there is no point is trying to decide what is the smallest PDP-11. I still contend that is likely to be the VT103, but the VT103 might well be larger than a very small laptop or other device used as the user interface plus the DECmate III. >From a rather humorous point of view, the first time I demonstrated the use of the VT103 with a hard disk drive inside back around 1990 when a plain VT100 was still a well known terminal, almost no one believed that I could be running a complete PDP-11 system with what looked (on the outside) as if I had just a VT100 INCLUDING a hard disk drive! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 16:41:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable In-Reply-To: <0409201734.AA04371@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Mike Ford wrote: > > > Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI card > > that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines [...] > > Did you say ISDN *Primary* Rate Interface (PRI), the big expensive one > that carries 23 (in North America) or 30 (in Europe) B channels, NOT > the 2B+D Basic Rate Interface (BRI)? So it's basically a channelised > T1/E1 card, right? Do you know if it can do E1 or just T1? If it > can do E1, my friend Stacy Minkin in Uzbekistan was looking for a PCI > channelised E1 card and probably still is. It isn't ISDN, though, > just a channelised E1. He wants to connect an E1 line from their old > municipal telephone switch (classic traditional telephony, pre-ISDN, > pre-other modern innovations) to an Asterisk Linux-based VoIP gateway. Your best bet for getting something like this is the Booktrout Technologies RTNI-2E1 (formally produced by Rhetorex). It's got two E1 spans on the card and is very flexible so it should be able to be made to work in Uzbekistan (it has upgradeable firmware). http://www.brooktrout.com/products/rtni/index.cfm Unfortunately, it's an ISA board. Check out their Vantage series which is all PCI. I'm not sure if they have a Vantage E1 card but probably. You could also try Dialogic and Natural Microsystems, but Rhetorex (now Brooktrout) was what I used and they made good products. Dialogic is the Microsoft of the PC telephony world (lots of marketing hype but mostly crap products) and NMS were a bunch of snakes. Hssssss. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 16:47:58 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040920214758.71883.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Don't forget that Dialogic is owned by Intel. --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI card > > > that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines [...] > > > > Did you say ISDN *Primary* Rate Interface (PRI), the big expensive one > > that carries 23 (in North America) or 30 (in Europe) B channels, NOT > > the 2B+D Basic Rate Interface (BRI)? So it's basically a channelised > > T1/E1 card, right? Do you know if it can do E1 or just T1? If it > > can do E1, my friend Stacy Minkin in Uzbekistan was looking for a PCI > > channelised E1 card and probably still is. It isn't ISDN, though, > > just a channelised E1. He wants to connect an E1 line from their old > > municipal telephone switch (classic traditional telephony, pre-ISDN, > > pre-other modern innovations) to an Asterisk Linux-based VoIP gateway. > > Your best bet for getting something like this is the Booktrout > Technologies RTNI-2E1 (formally produced by Rhetorex). It's got two E1 > spans on the card and is very flexible so it should be able to be made to > work in Uzbekistan (it has upgradeable firmware). > > http://www.brooktrout.com/products/rtni/index.cfm > > Unfortunately, it's an ISA board. Check out their Vantage series which is > all PCI. I'm not sure if they have a Vantage E1 card but probably. > > You could also try Dialogic and Natural Microsystems, but Rhetorex (now > Brooktrout) was what I used and they made good products. Dialogic is the > Microsoft of the PC telephony world (lots of marketing hype but mostly > crap products) and NMS were a bunch of snakes. Hssssss. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon Sep 20 16:36:00 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable References: <0409201734.AA04371@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <00f001c49f59$d2ba7fc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> The P8 card is basic, not primary rate. There are many vendors for channelised E1 PCI cards around now- try a search on something like 'dual port E1 PCI" and you should get quite a few. Cheers DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 5:34 AM Subject: Re: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable > Mike Ford wrote: > >> Sitting on my desk I have a totally neat Harmonix Hi-Card P8, a PCI >> card >> that I think can talk to 4 primary ISDN lines [...] > > Did you say ISDN *Primary* Rate Interface (PRI), the big expensive > one > that carries 23 (in North America) or 30 (in Europe) B channels, NOT > the 2B+D Basic Rate Interface (BRI)? So it's basically a > channelised > T1/E1 card, right? Do you know if it can do E1 or just T1? If it > can do E1, my friend Stacy Minkin in Uzbekistan was looking for a > PCI > channelised E1 card and probably still is. It isn't ISDN, though, > just a channelised E1. He wants to connect an E1 line from their > old > municipal telephone switch (classic traditional telephony, pre-ISDN, > pre-other modern innovations) to an Asterisk Linux-based VoIP > gateway. > > MS > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 16:46:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: LGP-21 photos, including memory In-Reply-To: <1095710551.5051.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > Sloooowly I get stuff up on the website... > > http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/Photos/index.html > > This URL is in the index, but I've added some photos. If you scroll down > there's some photos of the memory, heads, platter, scratches, the > caplugs, etc. > > (After careful dust removal, I keep a lint-free washed towel over the > top of the memory assembly. No sense inviting more dust in there.) Ok, for some reason I had in mind that this was a drum. I actually have that drive in my collection. Yours is in WAY better shape though. I think mine sat outside in the elements for a while before I got it. It makes sense, since the drive was manufactured by Librascope-General Precision (i.e. LGP). I found some marketing literature for it while going through some documents at the Computer History Museum a while back. I can make a copy for you if you like. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 16:50:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Sellam Ismail, > >>> > >>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the quickest and > >>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course). > >>> > >>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files. > > Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated > transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7 generations behind whatever is current today. I generally use hardware until it wears out completely. That means I have lots of older computers around in use all the time (some of it even on topic here). Either I'm very cheap or I believe in using something until it can't be reasonably used anymore (and then I try to stretch it out some more ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Mon Sep 20 16:56:15 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 20, 2004 02:28:41 PM Message-ID: <20040920215616.E92BB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > CAUSE > > The Windows 32-bit protected-mode cache driver (Vcache) determines the > > maximum cache size based on the amount of RAM that is present when Windows > > starts. Vcache then reserves enough memory addresses to permit it to access > > a cache of the maximum size so that it can increase the cache to that size > > if needed. These addresses are allocated in a range of virtual addresses > > from 0xC0000000 through 0xFFFFFFFF (3 to 4 gigabytes) known as the system > > arena. > > > > On computers with large amounts of RAM, the maximum cache size can be > > large enough that Vcache consumes all of the addresses in the system arena, > > leaving no virtual memory addresses available for other functions such as > > opening an MS-DOS prompt (creating a new virtual machine). > > Bill Gates must've thought that, surely, no one will ever need more than > 640MB of memory! Raymond Chen's blog The Old New Thing (http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/) recently covered virtual memory handling under Windows. In fact, his blog explains a lot of wierdness in Windows and makes for some pretty interesting reading. The series starts with http://weblogs.asp.net/oldnewthing/archive/2004/08/05/208908.aspx -spc (No one should ever need more than 4G ... ) From emu at ecubics.com Mon Sep 20 16:58:05 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: smc HDC9224 Message-ID: <414F526D.1010602@ecubics.com> Anybody out here has a datasheet for it ? (disk controller) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 16:56:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) Message-ID: Is anyone interested in computer flooring? See below. I don't believe I know this guy...or it might be the same guy I was dealing with a couple years ago when I was actively searching for this stuff. Reply-to: Bill Hepburn ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:15:44 -0700 From: Bill Hepburn To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: computer flooring We liquidate industry and just ran across about 4000 panels of computer flooring. They are 2'x2' and we are asking $4.00 each. mail me back if you still have an interest -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 17:02:52 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095717772.5051.19.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 13:04, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You can't rely just on those two tools. To properly clean a system, I > start with AdAware, then run Spybot S&D, then run CWShredder, then run > HijackThis! to do any final clean-up (HijackThis! is a manual process and > you must know what you're doing). The first three programs only get > most/some of the problems but not all, so it's important to run all of > them, IMO. ?! (asks rhetorically I guess) it's really necessary to do all this crap and rigamarole (never mind the recently documented high crash/reboot rate) just to operate a machine to read your email and store data!? I assume this is Windows, when people dont' mention the OS it usually means that... I try to be OS agnostic (though I run open-source OS's whenever I can) but sheesh, you have to stop and ask yourself, is the above really worth it? (The only program I cannot find a .*n[i,u]x replacement for is Adobe Illustrator. Even Quicken has it's gnucash counterpart... .*n[i,u]x is hardly trouble-free, but 90% of the time, the work I put in to maintain it goes towards something I want to do, not pushing rope.) Sorry, OT, I'll post on this no more. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Sep 20 17:06:54 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: smc HDC9224 In-Reply-To: <414F526D.1010602@ecubics.com> References: <414F526D.1010602@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <414F547E.6070607@ecubics.com> found it at Al's site ... emanuel stiebler wrote: > Anybody out here has a datasheet for it ? > (disk controller) > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 20 17:08:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: ISDN useless relic? Token Ring unkillable References: <0409201734.AA04371@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <00f001c49f59$d2ba7fc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <16719.21702.11553.140210@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Brown writes: Dave> The P8 card is basic, not primary rate. There are many vendors Dave> for channelised E1 PCI cards around now- try a search on Dave> something like 'dual port E1 PCI" and you should get quite a Dave> few. By the way... it's been a year or four since I dabbled in this stuff, and I never paid much attention to ISDN, but... ISDN is a whole lot of complexity on top of the basic wires. Channelized T1/E1 is a very simple thing, and if you have that, there should be plenty of solutions from many places. ISDN may use that at the bottom layer, but then you pile LAPD or whatever that pile of acronyms was on top, and things are far more complicated. Hopefully Mike's friend just needs channelized E1 without the baggage. paul From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon Sep 20 17:08:22 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. Bush's backers. So who were you really voting for ? Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:24 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the > Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion is > shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was actually > a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. > > Joe > > > At 02:05 PM 9/17/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote > > From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 17:09:06 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: LGP-21 photos, including memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095718145.5051.26.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 14:46, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > re: LGP-21 memory > > http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/Photos/index.html > Ok, for some reason I had in mind that this was a drum. I actually have > that drive in my collection. Yours is in WAY better shape though. I > think mine sat outside in the elements for a while before I got it. The surface is nickel-plated. Nickel is pretty rugged and chemically inert relative to other metals. Even if it's got dirt in it and had moisture/water, it may actually be usable, or recoverable. Don't rotate it! The heads I think are ceramic and enamelled copper wire, electronic stuff survives water pretty well unless there was dissimilar-metals type electrocorrosion going on. If I work out a recovery scheme, maybe I'll ask to borrow it, clean it, power it up and recover it and give it back to you. > I found some marketing literature for it while > going through some documents at the Computer History Museum a while back. > I can make a copy for you if you like. I would *love* to have copies and of course originals if available. Copies would be fine, and if they're at the museum, maybe I can photograph the covers for a sense of color etc when I come up for VCF. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 20 17:18:17 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for anything In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095718697.25754.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 05:40 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Right. The Maplin one (Published in the Maplin Magazine) used only the > > > user port IIRC. > > > > I've got another one (decoder only) which looks very Maplin-ey. That one > > just has a pair of SPDT switches on the front along with a meter marked > > 0-10, whilst at the back there's just power, and a pair of DIN sockets - > > I will ahve to dig out the Maplin docs. IIRC that one had a 20 pin ribbon > cable which connected to a Beeb user port (or to a input port card for an > Amstrad CPC...) Yes, I'm not quite sure what I have with this bit of kit. UoSAT offered all sorts of telemetry though, so presumably this thing's designed to filter out some specific data... > The DIN sockets do sound Maplin-like, but I thought they were on the > receiver. One linked to the decoder, the other to a tape recorder (you > recorded the analogue signals from the satellite, then played them back > into the decoder later on). Yep, the Astrid receiver I have is exactly like that - there's some TTL in it which is used to drive the computer's serial port, plus sockets for hook-up to a tape unit for recording. That's what makes this other box that I have odd - the Astrid receiver includes the necessary logic for interfacing to the CPU, and this other box doesn't seem to have enough I/O lines to be for complex data aquisition (such as imagery) - but I can't imagine what it's doing that couldn't have just been done in software on the host computer. I'm sure all will become clear when I get the time to trace the schematic out! > Maplin sold PCBs (with silk-screen overlay) and printed case panels IIRC. > This could be a homebrew copy, or it might (more likely) be another > magazine project. the board's semi-professional, in that it looks to be low-volume, but the lettering on it is all nicely done as are the marking giving component locations etc. (plus I notice that the front and rear metal panels are properly earthed, and the soldering's all good). Smells more like something built-to-order in a small workshop (as was typical for all sorts during the home computer boom I suppose!) > > > I do have a 'real' weather satellite receiver system. It came from > > > ic.ac.uk, and the bit I really wanted (and got) were the 3 I2S image > > [...] > > > I'd forgotten you had that. Do you have sufficient software to make it > > do something as a complete system if a suitable VAX were found, or has > > Alas not. I got the I2S driver tape I think, but nothing more :-( That's a shame. There must be a lot of big and complex systems that would make interesting museum displays which have gone the same way due to lack of software preservation :-( cheers, Jules From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 20 17:28:03 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: RAREST, Westinghouse 1600 or GE 550? In-Reply-To: References: <41113F90.8040602@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040920151903.00a78b70@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Back in my steel mill days I worked on a Westinghouse 1600, and I think the other systems around the place were GE 550, but those were more controllers than mnis, the 1600 was a fairly powerful multiterminal mini. I remember the 1600 as core memory and fully discrete logic, not a computer for general users, but a fast fortran industrial machine. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 20 17:59:52 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: Message-ID: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > >>> Sellam Ismail, > > >>> > > >>> I still use them [floppy's] all the time. It's still the quickest and > > >>> easiest way to transfer files (that can fit on them of course). > > >>> > > >>> I use CD-R for backups and transferring very large files. > > > > Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated > > transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. > > I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever > I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7 > generations behind whatever is current today. I generally use hardware > until it wears out completely. That means I have lots of older computers > around in use all the time (some of it even on topic here). Either I'm > very cheap or I believe in using something until it can't be reasonably > used anymore (and then I try to stretch it out some more ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I use floppies for machines that don't have any other easy method of transferring data (no hd, cdrom, or network connection) such as my 8 bit computers and some 16bit ones. Since it is still possible to get 5.25 and 3.5 DD disks in new condition we still have a way to go before the floppy is completely dead. Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth the time to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps you from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and copying other cd's. If I used hardware until it wore out I would still be using a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because the speed increase is worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run software it was intended to run. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 20 18:21:33 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <1095717772.5051.19.camel@fiche.wps.com> from Tom Jennings at "Sep 20, 4 03:02:52 pm" Message-ID: <200409202321.QAA13568@floodgap.com> > (The only program I cannot find a .*n[i,u]x replacement for is Adobe > Illustrator. Even Quicken has it's gnucash counterpart... .*n[i,u]x is > hardly trouble-free, but 90% of the time, the work I put in to maintain > it goes towards something I want to do, not pushing rope.) What about Illustrator for OS X? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I think you underestimate the sneakiness." -------------------------------- From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Sep 20 18:13:17 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:19 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <014201c49ecf$40c70460$0500fea9@game> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920042259.GA22079@bos7.spole.gov> <014201c49ecf$40c70460$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040920231317.GA10112@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 01:04:05AM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: "Ronald Wayne" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:22 AM > Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past > (fwd) > > > > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:04:59PM -0400, Ronald Wayne wrote: > > > If the floppy disk disappeared, I would notice (I use them) but would > > > not care. > > > > I recently put together a semi-modern system (AMD Socket A, 1.4GHz, > > 768MB max RAM, 1 AGP, 5 PCI, 0 ISA)... > > Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME have problems with vcache if you have 768MB of ram > or more that can cause hangs on bootup along with other problems. > > http://godzilla.kennedykrieger.org/~jgillen/computer/pcmemory.html Yes, I know... I specified "max" because that's the maximum amount of RAM the system can take, not necessarily what was installed at the time. When this was a W98 box, it had just shy of 512MB (one 256K, one 128K and one 64K stick). For application reasons, I have upgraded it to XP and bumped it up to 512MB. Nevertheless, to keep things on-topic, it has a floppy because in the past, trying to have _no_ floppy caused problems. With one attached, I am no longer having wierd delays, etc. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Sep-2004 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-65.0 C) Windchill -115.4 F (-81.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6 kts Grid 091 Barometer 680.8 mb (10595. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 20 18:26:41 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <200409201626.41172.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Does this have something to do with classic computers? If not, you're on the wrong list. Lyle On Monday 20 September 2004 15:08, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. > Bush's backers. > So who were you really voting for ? > > Geoff. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe R." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:24 PM > Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > > Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the > > Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion > > is > > > shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was > > actually > > > a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. > > > > Joe > > > > At 02:05 PM 9/17/04 -0500, you wrote: > > >Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Mon Sep 20 19:01:29 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414B493E.4000707@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <007d01c49f6e$309c8700$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Site Privacy issues > Yes, but I'd need to find a copy of Windows, and go through all the > hassle of finding Windows drivers for my hardware, which may or may not > be supported, and then figure out how to use it, and it all turns into > a one massive $bodypart-ache. > Opera supports far more platforms - might be worth a look. I stop all popups , and cookies where necessary. Most of the time it doesn't matter. Geoff. > Gordon. From AppleTO at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 19:06:40 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > 12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common. Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction. For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was also second hand information. > In addition to the physical varieties, there are thousands of physically > similar disks with mutually incompatible formats. > YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn insensitive towards those of > us who DO need and use them. Sorry for the sweeping, and personal, statement. Nah. I'll retract that apology too. I am allowed to have my own opinion after all. ;) To reiterate, I was only concerned about transfering data between different platforms. The "mutually incompatible formats" is a big problem there. Splitting files across multiple floppies is also a pain, because floppies don't have enough capacity in most cases these days (I will acknowledge that some people may differ on that point). > > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well > > then I would be concerned. > > Be converned. > Be very concerned. > RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB. So I've heard. :( From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 19:13:14 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> Message-ID: <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 20, 2004, at 2:39 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I asked this question at the bottom of one of my replies, > but it seems that it has not been addressed at all. > > I presume that even a DECmate III requires a user > interface (normally called a terminal / monitor+keyboard) > to be useful! > > Based on that assumption, may the user interface be > considered as a separate piece of hardware? > > (a) If the answer is yes, then can it also be assumed > that anything placed inside the terminal does NOT > add to the overall size? > > (b) If the answer is NO, then can it be assumed that > the total combination of (terminal + DECmate III) is > the actual size to be compared? > > Until the above assumptions can be clarified, there > is no point is trying to decide what is the smallest > PDP-11. I still contend that is likely to be the VT103, > but the VT103 might well be larger than a very small > laptop or other device used as the user interface > plus the DECmate III. > >> From a rather humorous point of view, the first time > I demonstrated the use of the VT103 with a hard > disk drive inside back around 1990 when a plain > VT100 was still a well known terminal, almost no one > believed that I could be running a complete PDP-11 > system with what looked (on the outside) as if I had > just a VT100 INCLUDING a hard disk drive! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > I have an HP terminal I can use, or I can use my PC laptop with it's serial port. Whatever I start looking for it should support RSTS/E From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 20 19:25:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <200409210025.RAA01982@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Although, I never actually asked Don for copies of an OS, I have sent a couple of things to him. I do hope that his family realizes how important saving this old software was to him and takes appropriate action to keep that information from being lost. I'd never met him but we have had several email conversations. I feel like I did just lose a friend. In fact, I did just lose a friend. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 20 19:25:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040920202548.008d56b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If they're liquidaters then they might be good folks to stay in touch with. They probably run across lots of old computer "junk". Joe At 02:56 PM 9/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >Is anyone interested in computer flooring? See below. I don't believe I >know this guy...or it might be the same guy I was dealing with a couple >years ago when I was actively searching for this stuff. > >Reply-to: Bill Hepburn > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:15:44 -0700 >From: Bill Hepburn >To: vcf@vintage.org >Subject: computer flooring > >We liquidate industry and just ran across about 4000 panels of computer >flooring. They are 2'x2' and we are asking $4.00 each. mail me back if you >still have an interest > > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 20 19:29:42 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040920202942.008d9100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:08 PM 9/20/04 +0100, you wrote: >According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. >Bush's backers. And??? >So who were you really voting for ? Nader. What's more I was voting against Bush AND Gore. Joe > >Geoff. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:24 PM >Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > >> Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the >> Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion >is >> shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was >actually >> a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. >> >> Joe >> >> >> At 02:05 PM 9/17/04 -0500, you wrote: >> >Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote >> > > > From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 19:33:07 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used foranything References: <1095718697.25754.12.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001601c49f72$91ce6fd0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> any chance you can get a couple of photo's up somewhere of the board etc? regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:18 PM Subject: Re: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used foranything > On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 05:40 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > Right. The Maplin one (Published in the Maplin Magazine) used only >> > > the >> > > user port IIRC. >> > >> > I've got another one (decoder only) which looks very Maplin-ey. That >> > one >> > just has a pair of SPDT switches on the front along with a meter marked >> > 0-10, whilst at the back there's just power, and a pair of DIN >> > sockets - >> >> I will ahve to dig out the Maplin docs. IIRC that one had a 20 pin ribbon >> cable which connected to a Beeb user port (or to a input port card for an >> Amstrad CPC...) > > Yes, I'm not quite sure what I have with this bit of kit. UoSAT offered > all sorts of telemetry though, so presumably this thing's designed to > filter out some specific data... > >> The DIN sockets do sound Maplin-like, but I thought they were on the >> receiver. One linked to the decoder, the other to a tape recorder (you >> recorded the analogue signals from the satellite, then played them back >> into the decoder later on). > > Yep, the Astrid receiver I have is exactly like that - there's some TTL > in it which is used to drive the computer's serial port, plus sockets > for hook-up to a tape unit for recording. > > That's what makes this other box that I have odd - the Astrid receiver > includes the necessary logic for interfacing to the CPU, and this other > box doesn't seem to have enough I/O lines to be for complex data > aquisition (such as imagery) - but I can't imagine what it's doing that > couldn't have just been done in software on the host computer. > > I'm sure all will become clear when I get the time to trace the > schematic out! > >> Maplin sold PCBs (with silk-screen overlay) and printed case panels IIRC. >> This could be a homebrew copy, or it might (more likely) be another >> magazine project. > > the board's semi-professional, in that it looks to be low-volume, but > the lettering on it is all nicely done as are the marking giving > component locations etc. (plus I notice that the front and rear metal > panels are properly earthed, and the soldering's all good). Smells more > like something built-to-order in a small workshop (as was typical for > all sorts during the home computer boom I suppose!) > >> > > I do have a 'real' weather satellite receiver system. It came from >> > > ic.ac.uk, and the bit I really wanted (and got) were the 3 I2S image >> >> [...] >> >> > I'd forgotten you had that. Do you have sufficient software to make it >> > do something as a complete system if a suitable VAX were found, or has >> >> Alas not. I got the I2S driver tape I think, but nothing more :-( > > That's a shame. There must be a lot of big and complex systems that > would make interesting museum displays which have gone the same way due > to lack of software preservation :-( > > cheers, > > Jules > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Sep 20 19:33:48 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> >Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Sep 20, 2004, at 2:39 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I presume that even a DECmate III requires a user > > interface (normally called a terminal / monitor+keyboard) > > to be useful! > I have an HP terminal I can use, or I can use my PC laptop with it's > serial port. Whatever I start looking for it should support RSTS/E Jerome Fine replies: OK, but do you OR do you not COUNT the terminal as part of the total size when using a DECmate III system? What I am trying to find out is: (a) If you don't count the terminal as part of the total system, then does placing a 4 * 4 Qbus backplane and everything else needed to run a PDP-11 inside a VT100 (which changes it into a VT103) constitute a ZERO increase in size? (b) If you do count the terminal as part of the total system, then does the VT103 exceed the size of a (terminal / DECmate III) system? At this point, I suspect that the whole subject is similar to how many angels can dance on the point of a pin, so it really does not matter whether you choose (a) or (b). Myself, I prefer (a) and conclude that a VT103 has a ZERO increase in size over a VT100, so essentially the size of the PDP-11 system is also ZERO - which is about as small as you will ever get. And since I can probably find a 3 1/2" SCSI hard drive to use with a SCSI host adapter instead of the 5 1/4" MFM hard drive that I originally used, the hard disk can now be many GigaBytes and the end of the SCSI cable can also be pulled outside of the VT103 to attach additional SCSI hard drives when a backup is needed - VERY simple! ENOUGH though. Let us finish by defining whether a terminal is or is NOT part of a PDP-11. Since I am voting first, I will start by saying that a basic PDP-11 does NOT include the terminal. However, I can easily appreciate that many will differ! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 19:01:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 20, 4 12:58:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had > > floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say > > this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest > > of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive. I am wondering what removeable mass storage you have on your classics... > > I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way to > transfer files (that can fit on them of course). So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs, HP71s, BBC Micros, PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for my machine...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 19:15:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Satellite stuff (Was: Re: BBC printer port (ever used for In-Reply-To: <1095718697.25754.12.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 20, 4 10:18:17 pm Message-ID: > Yep, the Astrid receiver I have is exactly like that - there's some TTL > in it which is used to drive the computer's serial port, plus sockets > for hook-up to a tape unit for recording. > > That's what makes this other box that I have odd - the Astrid receiver > includes the necessary logic for interfacing to the CPU, and this other > box doesn't seem to have enough I/O lines to be for complex data > aquisition (such as imagery) - but I can't imagine what it's doing that > couldn't have just been done in software on the host computer. Yes, but rememebr back then that there were many incompatible host computers (Beebs, Amstrad CPCs, Spectrums, C64setc, etc, etc) and that it was common to keep the software to a minimum to make it easier to use the device with just about every machine out there. > > Alas not. I got the I2S driver tape I think, but nothing more :-( > > That's a shame. There must be a lot of big and complex systems that > would make interesting museum displays which have gone the same way due > to lack of software preservation :-( My I2S image displays are not going near any museum. They're far too interesting for that! THey are complex. Very. Crates of 30 boards each, stuffed with TTL and DRAM chips. The oldest model I have, a 70/E, has 2 crates of memory + controllers, the RAMs being 4K bit DRAMs (somewhere over 3000 such chips in the complete system). Later models used 16K and 64K DRAMs and got the whole machine into 1 crate. The basic idea is to have several byteplates (512*512*8 bits) which are combined by lookup tables, adders, and more lookup tables to produce the RGB signals to the monitor (either using 8 bit or 10 bit DACs). The manual points out you can subtract byteplanes by programming a 2's complement lookup table, multiply them by programming log/antilog tables, and so on. There's also a cursor genreation board, controlled either by a Summagraphic tablet or a trackball (I have 3 machines, 3 trackballs and 2 tablets IIRC). And a histogram board which produes a histogram of the pixel values in memory. It akes 1 frame time to do this (of course). And the freeback ALU, which treats planes 0 and 1 as a 16 bit 'accumulator' plane and lets you do accumulator = accuumulator {*} any_other_plane where (*) is any operation a 74181 ALU chip can perform (add, subtract, AND, OR, XOR, etc). Again one frame time for a complete update. The latest model I have (model 75) has something called the transform sequencer which cotnains a 2910 sequencer chip + microcode PROMs + control store RAM. It appears you can program sequences of operations into it to be repeated automatically. Alas while I have scheamtics of that card, I don'd have any info on how to use it (or an explanation of the contents of the PROMs). -tony From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 19:46:13 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com><20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003401c49f74$66397200$7dc3033e@gamemachine> yes it is dissapearing, my new lappy didnt have one. but I cant complain. I didnt buy it :D but yes 90% of the new laptop machines you can find are sans rs232 in favour of an extra couple of usb ports. which dont make sense as the laptop struggles to provide the full current needed and they're all limited current nowadays compared to a desktop machine and the spec :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Wayne" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well >> > then I would be concerned. >> >> Be converned. >> Be very concerned. >> RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB. > > So I've heard. :( > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 19:47:03 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com><20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003701c49f74$84663510$7dc3033e@gamemachine> oh and I forgot... it dont even have a floppy drive either... and you cant get an external one :( regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Wayne" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) >> > Now if you were to say that the serial port is disappearing ... well >> > then I would be concerned. >> >> Be converned. >> Be very concerned. >> RS232 serial is disappearing rapidly, usually replaced by USB. > > So I've heard. :( > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 19:48:40 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: Message-ID: <003b01c49f74$be15d0e0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> if it can support a 32x cdreader, it can support a burner. yes it'll be slow at 1x, 2x but then speed dont matter when u want the data on the disk right? :D as for bbc's there is a project that works (by all accounts) that allows you to use flash cards as mass storage, there's also a BBC/IDE interface in the works too. regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:01 AM Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) >> >> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> > Gee, neither of the last two new computers that I purchased had >> > floppy drives (and one of those is about 5 years old now). I'd say >> > this is old news (and the PC world finally catching up with the rest >> > of us). I can't even remember the last time I used a floppy drive. > > I am wondering what removeable mass storage you have on your classics... > >> >> I still use them all the time. It's still the quickest and easiest way >> to >> transfer files (that can fit on them of course). > > So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs, HP71s, BBC Micros, > PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner > either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for > my machine...) > > -tony > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 19:48:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> Message-ID: <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 20, 2004, at 5:33 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Ron Hudson wrote: > >>> On Sep 20, 2004, at 2:39 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> I presume that even a DECmate III requires a user >>> interface (normally called a terminal / monitor+keyboard) >>> to be useful! >> I have an HP terminal I can use, or I can use my PC laptop with it's >> serial port. Whatever I start looking for it should support RSTS/E > > Jerome Fine replies: > > OK, but do you OR do you not COUNT the terminal > as part of the total size when using a DECmate III system? Ok, I am looking for the form factor of a box and an external terminal. The box for the Decmate III looks like it's about 1.5'w x .5'tall x 2'deep or somthing like that. I would probably be using my PC Laptop as a terminal (1 to save space,2 to provide for a "paper tape" (save to file, paste from file) I suppose what I would want to know is what can I run RSTS from that won't scare my wife, and would look sort of like a PC (box only) Also Whatever should be available enough to be cheap and easy to find. > > What I am trying to find out is: > > (a) If you don't count the terminal as part of the total system, then > does placing a 4 * 4 Qbus backplane and everything else needed > to run a PDP-11 inside a VT100 (which changes it into a VT103) > constitute a ZERO increase in size? > > (b) If you do count the terminal as part of the total system, then > does the VT103 exceed the size of a (terminal / DECmate III) > system? > > At this point, I suspect that the whole subject is similar to how > many angels can dance on the point of a pin, so it really does > not matter whether you choose (a) or (b). Myself, I prefer > (a) and conclude that a VT103 has a ZERO increase in size > over a VT100, so essentially the size of the PDP-11 system > is also ZERO - which is about as small as you will ever get. > > And since I can probably find a 3 1/2" SCSI hard drive to > use with a SCSI host adapter instead of the 5 1/4" MFM > hard drive that I originally used, the hard disk can now be > many GigaBytes and the end of the SCSI cable can also > be pulled outside of the VT103 to attach additional SCSI > hard drives when a backup is needed - VERY simple! > > ENOUGH though. Let us finish by defining whether a > terminal is or is NOT part of a PDP-11. Since I am > voting first, I will start by saying that a basic PDP-11 > does NOT include the terminal. However, I can easily > appreciate that many will differ! > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 20 19:49:33 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Sep 20, 2004 05:39:47 PM Message-ID: <200409210049.i8L0nXs0029984@onyx.spiritone.com> > I presume that even a DECmate III requires a user > interface (normally called a terminal / monitor+keyboard) > to be useful! > > Based on that assumption, may the user interface be > considered as a separate piece of hardware? The DECmate III uses an LK201 keyboard, and I believe the exact same Monochrome monitor as the DEC Professionals used. Zane From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 19:55:46 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote: ... > Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth > the time > to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps > you > from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and > copying > other cd's. Though this is close to OT (twice in one day!), I'd like to comment on the concept of "backup"; though it takes place usually on new gear, it totally pertains to old data, and is why we have so little of it! In my substantial experience, "offline" backup systems are totally, 100% useless for archival purposes. No machine-readable format has yet been devised that can be relied upon to persist, period. It's a certainty none of the crap we buy today will be one either. None. Exceptional feats, like recovering data from 20-year-old-tapes, mean nothing more than what they, are, exceptions to world-wide, near-total loss to bit rot of magnetic media. For every one of those, there's 1000, 100,000 unreadable, lost, mislabelled, tapes containing data in some inscrutable proprietary format. Pressed CDs might last a truly long time, but unless there's a wide-spread and earnest will to produce readers for them (yeah right) for the long-haul, like there is for fiche/film, they'll go the way of 800bpi 1/2" tape and 3740 floppies. So far, our long-term (100 year+) options are paper and fiche/film, which ironically makes one of the oldest discrete-symbol mediums, paper tape, also one of the longest-lived (and one of the lowest-density!) Practically-speaking, I use an idea of John Gilmore's, which is brutally simple: rotating spindles. Not only is it the most reliable system (not component), it's obvious ephemeral nature is a CONSTANT DAILY REMINDER of how little stands between our life's work and oblivion and how much attention data retention requires. * Like many people, I have machines (owned or shared) with 100% on time, at home and on the net far away (three cities > 1000mi apart). * Each computer has a disk drive for data. When that disk throws errors, makes Bad Noises, or Inappropriate Heat, Etc, it is replaced with great fanfare, ASAP. Occasionally there is no data loss. * Every datum I have ever worked on that is machine-readable resides on my laptop (not including most of my not-very-substantial music collection, though the same applies here). All email sent and received back to 1994 (with gaps) etc. * Using appropriate software (scripts involving rsync) every single computer has a copy of every single file, updated daily. Note that this scheme automagically takes care of changes and occasional improvements in technology and is largely independent of the technology. It's not archival though, just longish-lived. I supplement this with burned ISO-9660 CDROMs that I mail out in bundles to friends in yet other cities, "just toss it up in a closet" that's just a little added paranoia, but I don't expect those copies to be useful beyond the next year or two. (The last dump though, gzip.tar of only crucial, hand-selected "core" data, still took 8CDRs, so I will probably stop this practice.) Wildly multiple copies works (or worked) for printed books, sort of, but with the explosion of digital data it's too hard to tell wheat from chaff. At this point there really needs to be a *cultural* will to preserve (librarians are our heroes!) and there was some U.S. gov't effort in the past (the ruthless profiteers who run the U.S. now pretty much rules out that, regardless of which party "wins"), but at this point we all have to play Survivalist and make paper copies or something. I'm seriously thinking of printing on paper my entire website. An aside, but strongly related, is this illuminating (to me) tidbit: OK so my website has 1100+ hand-edited flat HTML files (vi) and another 3000 or so generated with a perl script. Every few years I ask acknowledged web content experts about how I could more algorithmically manage this stuff. With no exception so far, all of the web experts give me sales spiels -- I talk about data, they talk about programs. Nothing I heave heard or read about will handle importing existing flat-file data; worse, they say silly things like "remove HTML header data and import each page"! Not only is it mechanically impractical, the headers contain hand-crafted data! There's no talk of: what happens to my data when Program X is no longer supported? How do I get my data out? What's the internal data representation and how are relationships maintained? Ad nausem. Flat files it will remain. Scripts easily export, verify, import data. There's little motion I see towards actually SAVING things by anyone except librarians, and no one listens to them or gives them any money. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 20:01:41 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> > > 12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common. On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction. > For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of > Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was > also second hand information. Apple ][ was 5.25". There were some aftermarket add-ons for 8" (Sorrento Valley Associates) There was no 12" floppy. > > In addition to the physical varieties, there are thousands of physically > > similar disks with mutually incompatible formats. > > > YOU might not care, but that is pretty damn insensitive towards those of > > us who DO need and use them. > > Sorry for the sweeping, and personal, statement. Nah. I'll retract > that apology too. I am allowed to have my own opinion after all. ;) > To reiterate, I was only concerned about transfering data between > different platforms. The "mutually incompatible formats" is a big > problem there. Not caring about the end of floppies must also take into account the other uses besides disk format conversion. Although THAT IS an issue for me: http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html This is the third PC that I have been on today. (I teach, and use a lot of machines in the labs at the college) There are a handful of files that I need access to on at least three machines today. Therefore, I have a few floppies in my pocket. I was going to check and see what model our latest HPaq machines are, but all that it says on the front (above the 3.5" floppy) is: "hp Compaq"! So,... "Compaq" is now the name of a model of hp? OB_CC: When the < 5.25" disks came out, there was a big battle between 3", 3.25", 3.5", and 3.9" as to which one would become "Shirt Pocket Diskettes". George Morrow said (NOT in his book of quotes) that the answer was for the computer industry to cut a deal with the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets up to 5.25" or 8". > Splitting files across multiple floppies is also a pain, because > floppies don't have enough capacity in most cases these days (I will > acknowledge that some people may differ on that point). MS-DOS is seriously lacking in good ways to split a file! BACKUP would do it, but the early versions of BACKUP prepended a header that made it inconvenient to reassemble the file without using RESTORE. A C compiler or Assembler for demo use in class fits easily on a floppy with plenty of room for sample files. But for CAB (Computer Assisted Bloat), such as Visual C++, a floppy is, indeed, woefully too small for anything past "Hello, world". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From wacarder at usit.net Mon Sep 20 20:23:58 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > > I suppose what I would want to know is what can I run RSTS from that > won't scare my wife, and > would look sort of like a PC (box only) Scare your wife? I can tell you how to do that. She used to think I was a bit extreme because I had 7 PCs in various places in the house and in my workshop, and I made a big deal of wiring every room with two ethernet connections when we built our new home 3 years ago. Then my buddies and I "rescued" a PDP-11/23 in a short cabinet with two RL01 drives, a portable dual RX01 unit, a VT100 terminal, an LA120 DecWriter, and 5 boxes of manuals, cables, etc. About a month later, North American Van Lines arrived with a PDP-11/34 with two RL02 drives. Then came two RK05 drives. About a month after that a fellow drove up with two 6' tall PDP-11 racks, panels, another RL02 drive, and some other misc stuff. Then I traded a local fellow and got another RL02 drive. Occasionally a VT52 terminal would show up on the doorstep, courtesy of FedEx. Then one day an LA36 DecWriter and an ASR-33 showed up. Another time several boxes containing a dismantled PDP-11/35 arrived. Somewhere during all of this, I built a 12' x 10' room to house all this equipment, which is overflowing into the surrounding game room and guest room. Some of it has been racked in the tall racks. My wife can't wait for the next 6' rack to arrive with another vintage PDP-11 in it. It should be here in about a month or so. I think I'll stop after that one. She hasn't left me yet! She seems to have adapted to this new level of geekdom that I have entered. I try to show her how magical it is to fire up the big iron and watch RSTS/E as the startup processes display on the VT52 terminal. I try to get her to marvel as the program source that has been held captive since 1977 on my 27 year old paper tapes once again comes to life via the paper tape reader on the ASR-33 teletype. She somehow does not see the magic in all of this. But.... that's how to scare your wife! Ashley From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 20:15:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040920181143.R10715@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > So do I. You can't get CD-ROM burners for PERQs, HP71s, BBC Micros, > PDP11/45s, and so on. In fact I doubt if my PC would support a CD burner > either (I am sure the data rate of the burner would be far too fast for > my machine...) Tony, I don't know what the required speed would be - my recollection was that it was a few hundred K bits per second. I have a 2X external JVC SCSI CD writer that NEVER worked reliably. If you'll pay for the shipping to UK, you're welcome to it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 20 20:16:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Poly 8813/8810 emulator Message-ID: <200409210116.SAA02009@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bob Bybee has place his Polymorphic emulator on his web page. He was an editor for the PolyNews. The emulator runs on a PC in DOS mode. Most current machines can emulate the original faster than the original. He originally wrote the emulator for people migrating from the Polymorphic machines to PC's but wanted to keep the software that they were previously using on the Poly's. Many had ledger programs and Poly's BASIC was one of the better implementations. Anyway, it is all good fun: http://bybeeweb.com/pm.htm Enjoy Dwight PS Any specific questions about the commands, you can either ask him or me. He is much more expert than I am but I do have a working knowledge. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 20 20:19:27 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1095729567.5051.85.camel@fiche.wps.com> Wait, I don't get all this fuss, is it a *surprise* that floppies will so be no more? PS: I'm with Fred, it's safe to say there never, ever was such a thing as a 12" floppy disk product, even if it was printed in an Apple ][ brochure. Typos happen. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 20:20:40 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com><20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net><1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004301c49f79$36409d80$7dc3033e@gamemachine> hp is the new compaq. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 20:19:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <1095717772.5051.19.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > You can't rely just on those two tools. To properly clean a system, I > > start with AdAware, then run Spybot S&D, then run CWShredder, then run > > HijackThis! to do any final clean-up (HijackThis! is a manual process and > > you must know what you're doing). The first three programs only get > > most/some of the problems but not all, so it's important to run all of > > them, IMO. > > ?! (asks rhetorically I guess) it's really necessary to do all this crap > and rigamarole (never mind the recently documented high crash/reboot > rate) just to operate a machine to read your email and store data!? Um, yeah. It sucks. But only if you are lame and click on every shiny banner ad that promises to fulfill your every whim and desire and you always click "Yes" when some random plug-in wants to be installed. > I assume this is Windows, when people dont' mention the OS it usually > means that... Yes, as far as I know there are no equivalents of this nonsense in Linux and MacOS. > I try to be OS agnostic (though I run open-source OS's whenever I can) > but sheesh, you have to stop and ask yourself, is the above really worth > it? Again, only if you're lame. If you are disciplined then you should never really have to go through the process. I've fixed a few computers so far for people and one major part of the fix is to educate the owners about navigating the Internet in a safe and sane manner. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 20:20:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. > Bush's backers. > So who were you really voting for ? Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than you think. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From charlesb at otcgaming.net Mon Sep 20 20:23:58 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: Message-ID: <004d01c49f79$ac095b10$7dc3033e@gamemachine> nah to scare my wife all i'd need to do is to get her to help me clean the cobwebs out of the big iron :D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:23 AM Subject: RE: Real PDP11 model question >> >> I suppose what I would want to know is what can I run RSTS from that >> won't scare my wife, and >> would look sort of like a PC (box only) > > Scare your wife? I can tell you how to do that. She used to think I > was a bit extreme because I had 7 PCs in various places in the house > and in my workshop, and I made a big deal of wiring every room with > two ethernet connections when we built our new home 3 years ago. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Sep 20 20:39:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >>> If I used hardware until it wore out I would still be using >>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because >>> the speed increase is >>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run >>> software it was intended to run. >>> They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that fits.... From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Sep 20 20:41:05 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> >Ron Hudson wrote: > I suppose what I would want to know is what can I run RSTS from that > won't scare my wife, and > would look sort of like a PC (box only) > Also Whatever should be available enough to be cheap and easy to find. Jerome Fine replies: If you are focused on the software, then you might NOT mind using an actual PC and running the Ersatz-11 emulator. VT100 emulation is built in and it runs many times faster on any Pentium III. There are both Windows and Linux hobby versions. In addition, I am able to add most of the extra keys present on an LK201 keyboard from a VT220 with the standard 104 key PC keyboard. However, I use Windows 98 SE because I find it essential to read 132 character text files from MACRO-11 listings. The ATI AGP adapter is compatible with E11 to do this only with Windows 95 / 98 as far as I understand. Although I use only RT-11, RSTS/E also runs very well. HAVE FUN!! Your wife should not even notice - except that you will be using only text screens rather than Windows GUI interfaces. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From wacarder at usit.net Mon Sep 20 20:51:59 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <004d01c49f79$ac095b10$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: My wife did actually help me put those 100+ pound RK05 drives into the big rack. A few days later I had to call her in to watch as I had RSTS running and I had the cover off one of the RK05s and the read / write heads were moving in and out as I ran a program I wrote to exercise the heads and move them to various sectors. > nah to scare my wife all i'd need to do is to get her to help me > clean the > cobwebs out of the big iron :D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Carder" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:23 AM > Subject: RE: Real PDP11 model question > > > >> > >> I suppose what I would want to know is what can I run RSTS from that > >> won't scare my wife, and > >> would look sort of like a PC (box only) > > > > Scare your wife? I can tell you how to do that. She used to think I > > was a bit extreme because I had 7 PCs in various places in the house > > and in my workshop, and I made a big deal of wiring every room with > > two ethernet connections when we built our new home 3 years ago. > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 21:11:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: LGP-21 photos, including memory In-Reply-To: <1095718145.5051.26.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > Ok, for some reason I had in mind that this was a drum. I actually have > > that drive in my collection. Yours is in WAY better shape though. I > > think mine sat outside in the elements for a while before I got it. > > The surface is nickel-plated. Nickel is pretty rugged and chemically > inert relative to other metals. Even if it's got dirt in it and had > moisture/water, it may actually be usable, or recoverable. Don't rotate > it! Too late :( > The heads I think are ceramic and enamelled copper wire, electronic > stuff survives water pretty well unless there was dissimilar-metals type > electrocorrosion going on. The disc in some places is fairly scratched, but it doesn't sound too much worse than how you've described seeing other discs. The resistor array on one head section has been completely ripped off. The other head sections all seem to be intact with interconnecting wires. It probably needs some work. > If I work out a recovery scheme, maybe I'll ask to borrow it, clean it, > power it up and recover it and give it back to you. That would be swell. > > I found some marketing literature for it while > > going through some documents at the Computer History Museum a while back. > > I can make a copy for you if you like. > > I would *love* to have copies and of course originals if available. > Copies would be fine, and if they're at the museum, maybe I can > photograph the covers for a sense of color etc when I come up for VCF. The model I have (according to the tag) is L-321-1. I have sales lit. for the Model L-323 and the Series L-300 in general. I believe I know where the originals are at the CHM. If you have a fax number then I'll fax over copies tonight or thereabouts. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 20 22:21:16 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at "Sep 20, 4 09:39:46 pm" Message-ID: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> > >>> If I used hardware until it wore out I would still be using > >>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because > >>> the speed increase is > >>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run > >>> software it was intended to run. > >>> > > They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic > coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that > fits.... Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- If you had any brains at all, you'd be dangerous. -------------------------- From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Sep 20 22:22:00 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> References: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a > shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, > our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to git up offa the couch and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet, mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th' channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day! THEN: I hadda walk all that way back agin. And you know what!?!? Nine times outta ten, my goldarn pig of a little sister ate up all my Popcorn afore I could get back and watch another Lost in Space. Prime Time, doncha know!!! Cheerz Methuselah From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 22:26:47 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> Message-ID: <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> > > Jerome Fine replies: > > If you are focused on the software, then you might NOT > mind using an actual PC and running the Ersatz-11 emulator. I am currently running simh on both my Macintosh iBook and a no name clone PC running Linux (redhat 7.0). The Linux box has the added ability of being available for telnet (thanks Ashley C.) Is Ersatz-11 better than simh? From wacarder at usit.net Mon Sep 20 22:42:37 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John "Methuselah" Lawson said: > Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to git up offa the couch > and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet, > mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th' > channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day! > > THEN: I hadda walk all that way back agin. And you know > what!?!? Nine > times outta ten, my goldarn pig of a little sister ate up all my Popcorn > afore I could get back and watch another Lost in Space. Prime > Time, doncha know!!! Lost in Space? That's one of my all time favorite TV shows from way back when I also had to get up and walk across the room to turn on the TV and adjust the vertical hold button and the rabbit ears. Sometimes I had to fiddle with the contrast and brightness to make that black-and- white picture a little less fuzzy. More of my favorites were The Outer Limits, Twilight Zone, and Superman with George Reeves. Methuselah II From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 20 22:36:02 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: >On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth >> the time >> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps >> you >> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and >> copying > > other cd's. PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and 8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. If you must archive to tape, archive to DLT, and keep in mind that you should refresh the tapes every 5 years. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Sep 20 23:16:07 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: DECmate III vs VT103 for size? was Re: Real PDP11 model question Message-ID: <8c.15afebb2.2e810507@aol.com> The terminal for the Decmate III is the VR201 although they can use the color VR241 with the optional color card. The keyboard is the LK201 Gold Key word processing keyboard. The DECmate III is a small box about 12" wide by 11" deep and about 5 1/2" high. The VR201 is one of the smallest mono monitors I have ever seen, comparable to the Zenith 9 inchers. I have had both the VT103 and a Decmate III and would definitely believe the Decmate III, keyboard and mono monitor is smaller than a VT103 and keyboard. Now if you include the color monitor...but then the VT103 was not color either. A quick google search for "DECmate III" brought up http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=468 which has a picture of the outfit. Hmm, in production from 1984 to 1990. There were both Z80 and 8088 option cards for CPM and MS-DOS? I have seen the CPM options, although more common in the DECmate II but never the 8088 card. Monochrome WPS Word Processing worked very well and was easy to run on the RX50's 400K floppys. I am sure that is why it survived for so long. Does anyone know of an Ethernet interface for one of these? Paxton Astoria, OR From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 20 23:25:26 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040921001928.04e1c9e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a >>shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, >>our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. At least you had fire... :-O > Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to git up offa the couch > and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged feet, > mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to change th' > channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day! My dad sure can't claim that -- hell, he's *always* had a remote! Granted, the remote was *me*! : "Boy, get your butt up there & show me what's on TV!!!" -- Despite the fact that I knew what was on better than the TV Guide (which he never bought) he'd never believe me, and I had to flip thru all the channels 3 times anyway... Thank gawd we didn't have access to any UHF channels, or I'd *still* be standing there flipping... :-/ Ah well... I had my revenge... ;-) The *only* reason my spot on the couch was assured was because I'd be my mom's footrest. Neither of my siblings were willing to do that. However, that was OK. My mom was (and hell, who knows, prolly *is*) a saint. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 20 23:40:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > > 12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common. > > Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction. > For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of > Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was > also second hand information. Where ever it came from, it was painfully wrong :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 20 23:51:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040920214807.V17158@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > Lost in Space? That's one of my all time favorite TV shows from way > back when I also had to get up and walk across the room to turn on the > TV and adjust the vertical hold button and the rabbit ears. Sometimes > I had to fiddle with the contrast and brightness to make that black-and- > white picture a little less fuzzy. More of my favorites were The Outer > Limits, Twilight Zone, and Superman with George Reeves. Mark my words, NONE of those NEW shows are gonna last. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 20 23:55:53 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 s-video mod Message-ID: <200409210455.AAA27531@wordstock.com> All, I am working on a Atari 2600 S-video mod and am trying to follow instructions for a 4 switch 2600.... But of course the 2600 _they_ picture is totally different then the one I am trying to mod.. Does anyone have some pinouts for the TIA or for different 4-switch 2600's? Is there any way I could find out the locations of the Lumas / Sync / Chroma myself? Thanks!, Bryan Pope From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 21 00:39:56 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040921001928.04e1c9e0@mail.30below.com> References: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040921001928.04e1c9e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <414FBEAC.9010704@mdrconsult.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that John Lawson may have mentioned these words: > >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>> Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a >>> shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, >>> our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. > > > At least you had fire... :-O > >> Lissen up, young'un! When I was a kid, I had to git up offa the >> couch and walk *all the way across the living room* - in my stockinged >> feet, mind you! - allllll that way over to th' durn TeeVee just to >> change th' channel! None o' yer fancy-schmancy re-motes back in *my* day! > > > My dad sure can't claim that -- hell, he's *always* had a remote! > Granted, the remote was *me*! : "Boy, get your butt up there & show me > what's on TV!!!" -- Despite the fact that I knew what was on better than > the TV Guide (which he never bought) he'd never believe me, and I had to > flip thru all the channels 3 times anyway... Thank gawd we didn't have > access to any UHF channels, or I'd *still* be standing there flipping... > :-/ I remember one of the few times my granddad ever spanked me - for changing the channels with a swag-lamp chain.... They had one of the early remotes that was an actual tuned "clicker". I figured out by accident that if I rattled the chain on the ceiling lamp just right, the TV changed channels. Granddad wasn't nearly as excited about that as I was. Doc From jimmydevice at verizon.net Tue Sep 21 00:55:51 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414FC267.7000508@verizon.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > > > >>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:25:35 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> >>>12", if it ever existed, was NEVER common. >>> >>> >>Okay, I cannot find the original references so I make a retraction. >>For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of >>Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was >>also second hand information. >> >> > >Where ever it came from, it was painfully wrong :( > > > 12" floppies? The apple I pales. Jim Davis. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Sep 21 03:10:50 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:41:05 EDT." <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200409210810.JAA21959@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Jerome H. Fine" said: [Re: E11] > However, I use Windows 98 SE because I find it essential > to read 132 character text files from MACRO-11 listings. > The ATI AGP adapter is compatible with E11 to do this > only with Windows 95 / 98 as far as I understand. Attach a real terminal... :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 03:19:14 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:20 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <015301c49fb3$ae6da480$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 11:36 PM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > >On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth > >> the time > >> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps > >> you > >> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and > >> copying > > > other cd's. > > PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and > 8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. If you must > archive to tape, archive to DLT, and keep in mind that you should > refresh the tapes every 5 years. > > Zane > Exactly why is DAT such a bad storage format? And which variety of DAT are you referring to (DDS,DDS2,DDS3,DDS4..etc)? DLT tapes are expensive, so are higher capacity drives even on eBay. I don't run a business, my backups are just personal files and images of software disks used on my various computers. In the past I have used Quic80 Colorado tapes (120mb), TRAVAN drives (JUNK), CDR's (back when a blank was $8 and the burner was $1000), and even floppy disks themselves (hell I even used a utility that formatted 360k 5.25 disks into 800k). I never had a problem reading anything back from a cdr or tape, a few floppies (1.44mb mostly) ended up having bitrot but the data could be found on the net or from fellow collectors (5.25 disks seem more reliable to me). Every so many years I dump the media back to the HD and archive it on a newer media that has more storage space while keeping the original media on the shelf just in case, eventually every tape will go bad or the drives that can read them (along with software) will be hard to find. Using older technology (My 2 DAT drives are Just DDS2 4/8GB) limits the amount of data that fits on a tape so even if 1 tape does go bad its only a small part of the overall collection, plus you know how reliable the drive brand and tapes are from people who used that media in critical situations when it was cutting edge. Believe me I would have a different strategy backing up CAD files that are one of a kind compared to backing up my copy of Ultima III from my C64, one is irreplaceable while the other can be downloaded off the NET if needed. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 03:35:24 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040919211828.04711e10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921032958.04b6b058@pc> At 03:04 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Sellam Festival wrote: >You can't rely just on those two tools. To properly clean a system, I >start with AdAware, then run Spybot S&D, then run CWShredder, then run >HijackThis! to do any final clean-up (HijackThis! is a manual process and >you must know what you're doing). The first three programs only get >most/some of the problems but not all, so it's important to run all of >them, IMO. I'll second that, but I'll add "And rinse, lather, repeat." Ideally, disconnect the computer in question from the net, have a CD with these programs plus their latest-greatest fingerprint databases, install and clean and clean and clean and open the browser and surf and clean until everything comes up zero. But spyware tools are nowhere where they need to be. I'd love to have a boot CD that would let me scan and clean without needing to actually install and clean on the infected system, as well as tools that could operate on a non-active non-booted hard disk in the system. All of today's tools are focused on running live in the infected system in order to scan the registry, BHOs, and processes running in the system. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 03:41:34 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do repeated >> transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's completely. > >I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever >I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7 >generations behind whatever is current today. But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now I have several I got this way. Buy.com recently had 128M USB for $11 with a $10 rebate, so $1 AR: see http://www.slickdeals.net/ . I'm with you, though - I tend to use a floppy or burn a CD-R because I know they'll work and I don't need to think twice about whether there's an available USB port and whether that computer's OS handles it. Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards as USB disks? - John From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 04:08:30 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay Message-ID: <414FEF8E.1040704@pacbell.net> Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5125319498&rd=1 --Bill From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Tue Sep 21 04:10:30 2004 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: looking for NeXTstep Message-ID: Hello. I rescued a NeXTcube from going to the garbage. However, the hard disk seems dead. Does anyone have a NeXTstep instalation software around? Cheers, Rodrigo Ventura -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 04:05:08 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> At 07:55 PM 9/20/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >Though this is close to OT (twice in one day!), I'd like to comment on >the concept of "backup"; though it takes place usually on new gear, it >totally pertains to old data, and is why we have so little of it!* Today's backup problems will be tomorrow's preservation problems, so I think discussing backup, backup schemes, media, longevity, etc. is always on topic here. I think the data explosion we've been seeing will cripple PCs just as much as spyware and spam. The average Joe will begin to experience catastrophic data loss and it'll hurt. Recently I had to tell a young couple that their hard disk was dead, dead and they'd lost years of baby pictures and that their only slim hope was $1000 data recovery. Their system had a CD-R but they never used it. I see small businesses whose data is growing faster than they can handle. A dentist client of mine backs-up gigs nightly. DLT is expensive and it's barely fast enough to save it all during the office's off-hours. He's creating more and more larger files faster than he ever did before, yet I'm not convinced that his industry-specific package can handle it in the long run, nevermind whether it'll handle corruption down the line. Or all the small businesses with dozens of PCs that have never been backed-up. They're a horror. Sure, a big IT company can throw SANs and admins at these problems, but the average Joe Homeuser or Jane Smallbiz can't. I look back on my own data backups, too - DATs, Exabytes, DLTs, spare drives of each of those, and every time I've tried to examine old tapes I find many that are unreadable. I can't even find the time to erase them all. As they say, "Unless you have actually restored from your backups, you only *think* you have backups." Like Tom, the only stuff I trust is backups on live disks. I've been giving the same advice to clients, too - hard disks are cheap enough that I can set up Joe Homeuser with a spare HD and TaskZip to automatically archive a copy of N versions of their My Documents folder. Apart from catastrophic damage to the PC, it'll add a layer of protection to save their data. That's a step in the right direction. But I bet that if I had a way to burn all my data to redundant Mylar punched tape, I'd sleep better. It's a shame that pressed CDs never really dropped much in price in the last decade. I was thinking about that as a backup medium just the other day. As for Web management of large volumes of flat text, images and multi-format docs, I suspect there's a handcrafted path involving PHP. MySQL and postNuke types of solutions, but I don't have time for a new career. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 04:08:04 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> References: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921040739.04934de8@pc> At 10:21 PM 9/20/2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a >shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, >our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. And we had to raise and make our own shofars. - John From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 21 04:27:30 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921052422.024af238@192.168.0.1> At 08:13 PM 9/20/2004, you wrote: >I have an HP terminal I can use, or I can use my PC laptop with it's >serial port. Whatever I start looking for it should support RSTS/E Look for a BA23 solution then. Cheap, available, supportable, complete. You can get the skin that makes it look like a largish tower box too. Use another PC/laptop with a VT100 terminal emulator for the console terminal. DEC console terminals generally only support software flow control (XON/XOFF), , make sure your HP terminal will do that. With the PC, sometimes you have to jumper CTS<->RTS and DTR<->DSR on the PC side. Later, if you like the system (and your wife can abide it), get a SCSI card and add a SCSI tower for more storage, different OS etc. Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 21 04:23:02 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921051936.024a8350@192.168.0.1> At 08:06 PM 9/20/2004, you wrote: >For what it's worth: the original reference was in the context of >Apple II systems, and both 8" and 12" floppies were mentioned. It was >also second hand information. Maybe thinking of Bernoulli's? Ed K. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Sep 21 05:00:15 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> Message-ID: <000701c49fc1$cbef5220$7dc3033e@gamemachine> yea you can just buy a USB card reader. I have one of those for my digital camera. regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:41 AM Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash > to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards > as USB disks? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 21 05:33:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1095762799.26630.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 20:36 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 15:59, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Tape is still the best method for archiving files, if its not worth > >> the time > >> to backup a file to DAT then the file is not worth backing up (keeps > >> you > >> from archiving things you will never need). I use cdrs for music and > >> copying > > > other cd's. > > PLEASE tell me you don't archive data to DAT tapes! They're DAT and > 8mm tapes are among the worst storage formats around. FWIW, I've never had a problem with reliability of the tapes - it's the drives which fail ridiculously often. These days I have enough storage that I backup to spare 'offline' hard drives and 2 copies of everything on DAT, plus I keep two working DAT drives around at all times just in case one suddenly dies on me (as happened *again* just a few weeks ago). As with Teo I use DDS2 drives so the amount of data on any one tape isn't *that* big (for the same reason I use lots of small-capacity hard disks rather than one big one) > If you must archive to tape, archive to DLT, I still regret selling my DLT 7000 drive a few years ago. I got it free when it was thrown out from my old work; it had been dropped and the mechanism shifted inside and jammed - only someone had lost the paperwork and it couldn't be returned under warranty so just got chucked. Ten minutes with a screwdriver and it was operational again. Wish I'd kept it now... cheers, Jules From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Sep 21 05:42:27 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> Message-ID: <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Lots of 'em out there, John- not very expensive either. I carry a 512 CF card with me all the time in my wallet with useful stuff on it-A PCMCIA slot adaptor does sometimes go in with it. Not found a USB reader small enuff to go in there with it yet but I bet one will turn up soon. DaveB NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:41 PM Subject: RE: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > At 04:50 PM 9/20/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>> Compared to a USB memory stick? Unless I want to keep or do >>> repeated >>> transafers over time, I have lamost stopped using CD-R's >>> completely. >> >>I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use >>whatever >>I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff >>that's 3-7 >>generations behind whatever is current today. > > But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become > promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now > I have several I got this way. Buy.com recently had 128M USB > for $11 with a $10 rebate, so $1 AR: see http://www.slickdeals.net/ > . > > I'm with you, though - I tend to use a floppy or burn a CD-R because > I > know they'll work and I don't need to think twice about whether > there's > an available USB port and whether that computer's OS handles it. > > Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash > to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards > as USB disks? > > - John > > From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 21 05:55:08 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2004 02:08:30 PDT." <414FEF8E.1040704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200409211055.i8LAt8Re009486@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Maddox wrote: >Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5125319498&r >d=1 Umm, very tempting :-) But I suppose it would be impossible to connect it to any other sort of non-ibm tape controller... (a 360 just isn't in my budget :-) -brad From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 21 06:26:21 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <4135E22A.4030902@hp.com> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921072525.03668008@192.168.0.1> At 10:52 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote: >Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC >and PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) > >Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their >11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I >need to match the paint for the logo restoration. Was it like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124508154&rd=1 Ed K. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 07:57:25 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921075633.10bf8a50@pc> At 05:42 AM 9/21/2004, you wrote: >Lots of 'em out there, John- not very expensive either. Late-night brain block. I own several, but I always thought of them as "read the CF cards from my camera" devices. They require special drivers. But USB thumb-memories don't, right? - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 21 08:11:18 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay References: <414FEF8E.1040704@pacbell.net> <200409211055.i8LAt8Re009486@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <16720.10358.609000.238646@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> William Maddox wrote: >> Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5125319498&r >> d=1 Brad> Umm, very tempting :-) Brad> But I suppose it would be impossible to connect it to any other Brad> sort of non-ibm tape controller... (a 360 just isn't in my Brad> budget :-) With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to anything that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a DX11 you could hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; it should hook up to the older PDP10s (DX10? I don't remember that designation but presumably there was one). paul From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Sep 21 08:12:02 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc><02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921075633.10bf8a50@pc> Message-ID: <001901c49fdc$9687a4f0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> nah, they just look like another drive under windows (2k/xp) regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) > At 05:42 AM 9/21/2004, you wrote: >>Lots of 'em out there, John- not very expensive either. > > Late-night brain block. I own several, but I always > thought of them as "read the CF cards from my camera" devices. > They require special drivers. But USB thumb-memories don't, right? > - John --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 21 08:32:16 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: <16720.10358.609000.238646@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <414FEF8E.1040704@pacbell.net> <200409211055.i8LAt8Re009486@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921093120.031657b0@192.168.0.1> At 09:11 AM 9/21/2004, you wrote: > >> Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. > >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5125319498&r > >> d=1 > > Brad> Umm, very tempting :-) > > Brad> But I suppose it would be impossible to connect it to any other > Brad> sort of non-ibm tape controller... (a 360 just isn't in my > Brad> budget :-) > >With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to anything >that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a DX11 you could >hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; it should hook up to the older PDP10s >(DX10? I don't remember that designation but presumably there was >one). Here's a SCSI adapter -- at least a picture of one. :-) http://www.wpoint.co.uk/pdfs/i-1090-e.pdf Ed K. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Sep 21 08:40:04 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:11:18 EDT." <16720.10358.609000.238646@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409211340.i8LDe4J4012900@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to anything >that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a DX11 you could >hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; wow - bus & tag? I've never seen a dx11. I assume VMS had support for that. -brad From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 21 08:54:47 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040920202548.008d56b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >>> > >>> >Is anyone interested in computer flooring? See below. I >>> don't believe >>> >I know this guy...or it might be the same guy I was dealing with a >>> >couple years ago when I was actively searching for this stuff. >>> > >>> >Reply-to: Bill Hepburn >>> > >>> > >>> >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> >Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:15:44 -0700 >>> >From: Bill Hepburn >>> >To: vcf@vintage.org >>> >Subject: computer flooring >>> > >>> >We liquidate industry and just ran across about 4000 >>> panels of computer >>> >flooring. They are 2'x2' and we are asking $4.00 each. >>> mail me back if >>> >you still have an interest >>> > >>> > >>> >-- >>> > I have been in contact with the seller.... >>> I should have mentioned in my mail that we are not interested in piecing this out. While we may sell as few as >>> 1000 pieces, I'm sure twenty-five is out of the question. Sorry! >>> >>> Bill My wife you kill me if I did our entire house, garage, patio........ From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 21 08:53:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay References: <16720.10358.609000.238646@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409211340.i8LDe4J4012900@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <16720.12900.594473.801736@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> Paul Koning wrote: >> With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to >> anything that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a >> DX11 you could hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; Brad> wow - bus & tag? I've never seen a dx11. I assume VMS had Brad> support for that. No VMS support that I know of. The DX11 was a rather uncommon beast. I believe it was a 6 foot rack full of little M series modules (and perhaps even older modules). Built by the CSS group, I believe. When I heard of it, it was definitely used with a PDP11 at one end, not a VAX. One of my co-workers in the RSTS group used to support that beast; he had a box or two of IBM-side diagnostics card decks in his office. I guess the primary application was as a PDP11 to IBM/360 interconnect, so the PDP11 could act as an IBM front end or something along those lines. paul From aek at spies.com Tue Sep 21 09:42:48 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) Message-ID: <20040921144248.58FE23FC1@spies.com> Check if they have the jacks as well. Tiles by themselves would be a pita to install without the support jacks, which are normally glued to the subfloor From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 21 10:04:43 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040921144248.58FE23FC1@spies.com> Message-ID: They have the stanchions as well. A total lot of 4000 tiles, that's 16,000 Sq Ft!!!! [I only want 100sqft or so....] >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 10:43 AM >>> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: computer flooring (fwd) >>> >>> >>> Check if they have the jacks as well. >>> >>> Tiles by themselves would be a pita to install without the >>> support jacks, which are normally glued to the subfloor >>> From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:00:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <004d01c49f79$ac095b10$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > nah to scare my wife all i'd need to do is to get her to help me clean the > cobwebs out of the big iron :D I scare my wife everytime I... Nevermind. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:02:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409210321.UAA14778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>> If I used hardware until it wore out I would still be using > > >>> a 1200 baud modem! You have to upgrade some components because > > >>> the speed increase is > > >>> worth it, while still retaining the original machines ability to run > > >>> software it was intended to run. > > >>> > > > > They have 1200 Baud Modems???? Why? I get along just fine with my acoustic > > coupler (although it is getting hard to find a telephone shandset that > > fits.... > > Luxury. When I was a boy, we had to transmit using smoke signals *and* a > shofar for parity bits. And if we lost carrier because of a rainstorm, > our father would beat us with his strap and dance on our grave. At least you had parity! Half the time we didn't even know what byte we were receiving. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:09:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921032958.04b6b058@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > But spyware tools are nowhere where they need to be. I'd love to > have a boot CD that would let me scan and clean without needing to > actually install and clean on the infected system, as well as tools > that could operate on a non-active non-booted hard disk in the system. > All of today's tools are focused on running live in the infected > system in order to scan the registry, BHOs, and processes > running in the system. It helps to boot into Safe Mode (with networking enabled). I fought one particular bit of spyware that would regenerate itself 10 seconds after you deleted it's files. I searched and searched and searched and found nothing about it on the web, and so assumed it was some newfangled alien technology from the future. I finally had to boot into Safe Mode and manual crawl through the registry deleting every last bit of evidence of its existence. What a pain in the ass that was. HijackThis! would have been helpful if I'd known about it then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:11:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash > to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards > as USB disks? Why, yes :) I was brought one the other day. One is made by SanDisk and called the ImageMate. WinXP recognizes it automatically and installs the drivers (no surprises there) and it mounts any CF card you have as an additional drive volume. Nifty! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 21 10:18:42 2004 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 s-video mod In-Reply-To: <200409210455.AAA27531@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1gkgexr.1y4b02xijb4n4M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > All, > > I am working on a Atari 2600 S-video mod and am trying to follow > instructions for a 4 switch 2600.... But of course the 2600 _they_ picture > is totally different then the one I am trying to mod.. Does anyone have > some pinouts for the TIA or for different 4-switch 2600's? Is there any > way I could find out the locations of the Lumas / Sync / Chroma myself? Are you installing the Cybertech S-Vodeo mod? I recently installed that in my 6 switcher and it looks amazing. Sorry I can't be of any more help, but you should go ask this in the Atari Age forums. -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Sep 21 10:31:29 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > They have the stanchions as well. A total lot of 4000 tiles, that's 16,000 > Sq Ft!!!! > [I only want 100sqft or so....] I could probably use about 4Ksqft, but not right now. Damn! :( --f From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Sep 21 10:33:47 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 s-video mod In-Reply-To: <1gkgexr.1y4b02xijb4n4M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> from "tim lindner" at Sep 21, 04 08:18:42 am Message-ID: <200409211533.LAA30309@wordstock.com> And thusly tim lindner spake: > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > > All, > > > > I am working on a Atari 2600 S-video mod and am trying to follow > > instructions for a 4 switch 2600.... But of course the 2600 _they_ picture > > is totally different then the one I am trying to mod.. Does anyone have > > some pinouts for the TIA or for different 4-switch 2600's? Is there any > > way I could find out the locations of the Lumas / Sync / Chroma myself? > > Are you installing the Cybertech S-Vodeo mod? I recently installed that > in my 6 switcher and it looks amazing. > No, right now I am using information from the 7800 s-video mod ( http://www.geocities.com/atari7800mod/7800_vidmod_construction.html ) and info from this 2600 composite video mod ( http://home.earthlink.net/~awbrown/atari2600vidmod.htm ) I read somewhere about the Cybertech mod. Doesn't that cost about $60? I would like to try to build everthing myself first. > Sorry I can't be of any more help, but you should go ask this in the > Atari Age forums. > > > I will check them out. Thanks!, Bryan Pope From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:40:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > Sure, a big IT company can throw SANs and admins at these problems, > but the average Joe Homeuser or Jane Smallbiz can't. This service managed to survive the dot-bomb: http://www.xdrive.com/ It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to some storage space sitting on their servers. Very cool, very handy. Might be a good solution for home or small businesses to back up files off-site. Hell, *I* should start using it! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:46:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > My wife you kill me if I did our entire house, garage, patio........ I made a deck with the the tiles I had. It's still there after two seasons (surpassing even my own expectations). It's not fun after it rains (the tiles are carpeted) but it dries out soon enough. It'll be ripped out when the real patio goes in :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 10:48:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > They have the stanchions as well. A total lot of 4000 tiles, that's 16,000 > > Sq Ft!!!! > > [I only want 100sqft or so....] > > I could probably use about 4Ksqft, but not right now. Damn! :( I would strongly advise you buy it now and find someplace to store it. In my experience, this stuff is HARD to come by, and at $4 per tile it's not that bad a price (and I'm sure you can negotiate downwards). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Tue Sep 21 10:52:15 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) Message-ID: >Hmm. Come to think of it, does anyone make a CompactFlash >to USB adapter that would let us use all these cheap CF cards >as USB disks? Yes, just don't ask me who, because I don't remember off the top of my head. But I know when I bought my first MemoryStick reader, the same company offered a reader for CF along with other types. It was about the same size as a USB FlashDrive, and could be plugged directly into a USB port (although it also came with a 3 foot extension cable). I can't give a review of how well it worked, as the package said my MemoryStick reader didn't need drivers for Mac OS 9, upon opening the package, I found that it in fact did need drivers. So I returned it and bought a different brand that really didn't need drivers. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 11:04:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) Message-ID: By the way, for proper context, here's the original message thread from my "customer". I have no idea where he saw that I have Commodore or Okidata printers. But you do realize this does make it on topic, since those are very vintage! :) P.S. I MapQuested that address and it exists apparently. Can someone from that area sanity check it? I wonder what's there... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: mark green Cc: utl@rivne.com Subject: Re: international order........... On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > good day sir/ms > hi my name is green i am a business man, i live in usa i have a store in canada and uk, i purchase and sell goods from one store to another store. but for security purpose this is my address 27 East 158th Place > South Holland, illinois, > USA , 60473 > so there is a new store i wanted to set up in nigeria and i will like to place an order form your store to that store in nigeria. > but i want you to some straigth i don't live in nigeria because some people don't want to ship to that country fir some reason and i don't know why but for me i like the country > because i make a lot of profit there and idon't realy stay there i due go and come back for business i am a wihte man that love black people, > so i will like to know if you accept credit card for your payment and if you can ship to the country. > my couirer service that use is via, > dhl > fedex > so iwill place my order immidately you recieve you reply > regards > green Yes. Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: mark green Subject: Re: ITEMS LIST............ On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > hello > thank you for the reply,so i can now make my order pls see the goods below: > 1, > Commodore Business Machines 1526 Printer > QTY:5 > 2, > Okidata Okimate 20 > QTY:5 > so you can cacu;ate the total cost of the goods so that can make the payment I only have Okidata 21 models. They are 1 better than the model 20. Is this OK? My price is $37.62 each. For the 1526 printer, I have 7 in stock. $39.95 each. If you buy all 7 I'll give you a better price. Do you need extra dwibbles? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 21 11:05:39 2004 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 s-video mod In-Reply-To: <200409211533.LAA30309@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1gkgh2r.dk8w45sa8xr6M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > I read somewhere about the Cybertech mod. Doesn't that cost about $60? Yes! And worth every penny. > I would like to try to build everthing myself first. I totally understand this. I just finished building a composite mod for my Color Computer and Intellivision. Very satisfying. The only reason I went with the Cybertech mod was Nathan Strums's comparisons web page: http://www.cheeptech.com/2600mods/2600mods.shtml -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com From cb at mythtech.net Tue Sep 21 11:17:34 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) Message-ID: >By the way, for proper context, here's the original message thread from my >"customer". I have no idea where he saw that I have Commodore or Okidata >printers. But you do realize this does make it on topic, since those are >very vintage! :) I assume you will fill us in on how this plays out? Or at least point us to a web page where you post it? Oh, and how is your price on just dwibbles? I'm a little shy on them myself :-) -chris From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:19:51 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Taxan 630U monitor question Message-ID: <20040921161951.25165.qmail@web21526.mail.yahoo.com> I dug up a Taxan 630U RGB monitor with an 8-pin DIN connector that I'm trying to test. Apparently this was originally connected to an AT&T 6300, so the cable I currently have is 8pin DIN <--> DB-25. Is there anyway to connect this to a standard DB-9 CGA port. I've looked around a little for an adapter or cable but no immediate hits. Can I build my own if I get the pinouts? Thanks for any help. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From aek at spies.com Tue Sep 21 11:45:14 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) Message-ID: <20040921164514.6F6843CFE@spies.com> > this stuff is HARD to come by yup. I'm interested as well. Where is it located? Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) may be interested as well. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 12:35:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: Paul Koning "Re: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay" (Sep 21, 9:53) References: <16720.10358.609000.238646@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409211340.i8LDe4J4012900@mwave.heeltoe.com> <16720.12900.594473.801736@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <10409211835.ZM3143@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 21 2004, 9:53, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: > > Brad> Paul Koning wrote: > >> With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to > >> anything that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a > >> DX11 you could hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; > > Brad> wow - bus & tag? I've never seen a dx11. I assume VMS had > Brad> support for that. > > No VMS support that I know of. The DX11 was a rather uncommon beast. > I believe it was a 6 foot rack full of little M series modules (and > perhaps even older modules). Built by the CSS group, I believe. When > I heard of it, it was definitely used with a PDP11 at one end, not a > VAX. Not a 6' rack, about 4', but it was full of M-series modules. And lamps. Lots and lots of lamps on the front. I've seen two, one converted to use LEDs (or possibly supplied like that), and both hanging off 11/34s, running a modified version of RT-11, IIRC (but I could be wrong about the OS). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 21 12:49:52 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040921164514.6F6843CFE@spies.com> Message-ID: It is located in Indiana... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 12:45 PM >>> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: computer flooring (fwd) >>> >>> >>> > this stuff is HARD to come by >>> >>> yup. >>> >>> I'm interested as well. >>> Where is it located? >>> >>> Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) >>> may be interested as well. >>> From AppleTO at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:51:07 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> References: <1047a6e604091920046af4183b@mail.gmail.com> <20040920130952.D99944@shell.lmi.net> <1047a6e6040920170678dfa2ed@mail.gmail.com> <20040920173620.N10114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1047a6e6040921105149a1cca3@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:01:41 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > Apple ][ was 5.25". I know perfectly well what was /standard/ fare for the Apple II. I may only have three of them on hand, but I assure you I have more in storage. > Not caring about the end of floppies must also take into account the other > uses besides disk format conversion. Although THAT IS an issue for me: > http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html See the "Sorry, No Apples" bit, and you'll understand why I say they aren't ideal. That said, I believe that I have noted on twice that this is a personal opinion. You are free to have your own opinion. > George Morrow said (NOT in his book > of quotes) that the answer was for the computer industry to cut > a deal with the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets up to > 5.25" or 8". LOL. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Sep 21 12:58:37 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) Message-ID: This topic is very timely my wife just asked me about a pile of computer flooring in the corner of the garage. I have some of the non carpet computer flooring tiles, they came out of a CT scanner room. I think there are about 32 tiles, and some of the rails and feet to support them. Best offer plus you pay shipping... Located near Kansas City, Missouri. Offering a bribe; I'll throw in some of my wife's homemade chocolate chip cookies for the right deal. She will be glad to make them if the tiles disappear. Mike From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 21 12:28:01 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> <200409201626.41172.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: OK, Kerry's web server runs on Apache/Linux and George's runs on IIS. Nader, though saying he doesn't like computers, runs Apache/Linux, and Badnarik runs Linux and FreeBSD. To make it more classic-computer related, Nader's site still runs Apache 1.3, and up until 17-Nov-2000, ran BSD/OS (Gasp!) My vote's still for HAL: http://images.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/04-09-04-campaigns/EPS.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > Does this have something to do with classic computers? If not, you're on the > wrong list. > > Lyle > > On Monday 20 September 2004 15:08, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. > > Bush's backers. > > So who were you really voting for ? > > > > Geoff. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joe R." > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:24 PM > > Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > > > > Don't blame me. I voted for Nader. It was that or vote for the > > > Republican carpet bagger or the Democratic moron. This year's electrion > > > > is > > > > > shaping up to be just as bad. I can't even remember when there was > > > > actually > > > > > a candidate that I really wanted to vote for. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > At 02:05 PM 9/17/04 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Maybe God didn't like the way Floridians vote....or is it, dont vote > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 15 18:53:46 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Identifying old HP iron In-Reply-To: <55658560.20040912221632@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <4148739A.30953.244425D4@localhost> Re: > I've got an old HP system that I rescued from ebay. I've asked in ... > It's a beige machine of the stackable kind and I think I've seen ... > * The main unit is labelled "HP Series 40 260" on the front. It ... > the system is model "45072A". Sure sounds like an HP 260, which is indeed the successor to the HP 250. I've got one HP 260 (with no software at all). There's some chance that the disk drive has software on it, so don't erase it :) I've never used a 260... a post on comp.sys.hp.misc or comp.sys.hp.mpe (which might find old HP 250 / 260 users) might work. I ought to dig my 260 out of storage ... so I could try it out if I ever find an OS for it :) Michael Marxmeier probably knows a lot more about the 260, since he wrote an entire 260 emulation package for Unix (www.hp-eloquence.com). Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Sep 16 00:40:25 2004 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Mine's smaller than yours (Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron) In-Reply-To: <936E1495-066D-11D9-AF10-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200409160540.i8G5ePn9014954@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Ron Hudson : > I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 > one could find? I have an SBC-11 system consisting of a power supply and 4-slot backplane that's about the size of a couple of lunch boxes. Can anyone beat that? Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Sep 16 00:46:39 2004 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200409160546.i8G5kdqZ014965@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Lyle Bickley : > I thinks its a LOT easier (and more fun) to simply run it on real > DEC hardware - or if you can't create that environment - run it on > Intel via the SIMH or ERSATZ emulators. Maybe run an emulator directly on the hardware, without any other OS in the way? That would be the next best thing to implementing the OS on the bare metal. Sometimes I think it might be fun to build an emulator based on an FPGA. Then you wouldn't have any other instruction set in the way, either. :-) Has anyone out there done that? Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From Johnbell at adelphia.net Thu Sep 16 21:05:22 2004 From: Johnbell at adelphia.net (John Bell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: Compucolor items on eBay Message-ID: <08154ED0-084E-11D9-8C95-00039301D37E@adelphia.net> Hi Chandra! I have a "newer" model CompuColor II, the style that has the monitor and keyboard in the same case. Yes, the screen buffer was used during floppy I/O! The floppies held a whopping 40K per diskette. However there is *NO* truth to the rumor that the CCII is so old that the disk drive uses a hand crank (grin). I have the original manual, a third-party user's guide. I also have the ROM listings for 1978 and 1979 ROMs. I may be a bit off with the years, but it has been a while and my memory has faded. If there is something you need me to look up, let me know. The books and ROM listings are too big to easily photocopy, sorry! --- John Bell From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Sep 17 06:37:49 2004 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:21 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts Message-ID: <200409171137.i8HBbn607842@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> > The pad on the print hammer has disintegrated and the underlying metal > has been pounding on the print cylinder. This has caused some of the > letters images to be deformed so that only the top half of the letter > prints. A new print cylinder would be virtually impossible to fabricate, > so I need to find a new or used one. With the new available it may not be worth the trouble but as long as the damage isn't too deep you can get it to print acceptably by filing the letters flat again, try printing and file again on the part of the letter that prints darkest until you get reasonably even printing. From edward at groenenberg.net Fri Sep 17 11:13:08 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today Message-ID: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> Well, today was a truly super find day. We (Henk Gooijen and I) collected 2 pallets full of test equipment from HP at an older warehouse (was used by DEC). What we got : 2x Unibus margin testers 2x Unibus exercisers 3x RK06/07 drive testers 2x RM02/3/5 drive testers 1x PRS01 papertape reader 2x portable RX02 drives (basically 1 RX02 drive + psu in suitcase) 1x portable RX01 drive 2x potrable RX50 drives 2x RL02 reference packs (these have a blue top and are marked RL02-RF) 1x set of RL01's containing a full XXDP+ diagnostic kit 1x RL02 containing XXDP+ 1x RA60 containing 8xxx/9xxx complete diagnostic kit 1x RL02 containing 11/750 diagnostics 2x RA60 data packs 2x RK07 alignment packs 2x RK06 alignment packs 1x RK07 XXDP+ pack 1x RM02/3 Alignment pack 1x RM02/3 XXDP+ pack 1x Kennedy 9900 tapedrive exerciser 1x Wilson tester (for various SMD/CMD drives, incl CDC's) 1x RP06 drive tester 1x RP05/06 alignment toolset 1x RT02 terminal 1x HSC50/70 software kit 3x RK06/07 alignment toolset 200+ floppies containing XXDP+ (DX/DY) 70+ floppies containing XXDP+ (RX50) 10+ tapes containing XXDP+ 3x head inspector kits. Pics to be seen at www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_album.php Ed -- edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S From edward at groenenberg.net Fri Sep 17 14:42:10 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Super DEC finda today. Message-ID: <414B3E12.CF02547@groenenberg.net> The URL in my previous message is not complete, the correct one is : http://www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=album14 Ed -- edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S From FaLLnAnGeL889 at aol.com Fri Sep 17 15:30:23 2004 From: FaLLnAnGeL889 at aol.com (FaLLnAnGeL889@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock Message-ID: Hi, My dad has one of those self winding clocks, and i was wondering if you could point me in the direction of finding a wiring diagram for it? thanks for your time -Kate From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Sep 17 18:17:41 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage In-Reply-To: <038e01c49b54$1d045d80$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <200409172317.i8HNHgZo001844@mail.bcpl.net> On 15 Sep 2004 at 13:45, Jay West wrote: > Does anyone know where there's a picture of this model online? I have the HP sales literature (5952-0976, 12/1989, 8 pages) for this machine. Let me know if you want me to scan and PDF it. -- Dave From ddl at danlan.com Fri Sep 17 21:21:27 2004 From: ddl at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 Message-ID: <200409180221.WAA11532@ss10.danlan.com> To answer a few questions that have been asked about the Osborne 1: -I'm not asking anything for it, but neither will I spring for shipping and packing. I expect this could be expensive. I am not willing to deal with international shipping at all. -I'm in Gloucester, MA. Pickup would of course be best. -It worked last I played with it, but that was 15+ years ago. -The latches are on the sides. And to answer some questions that have not been asked: -The original user's manual is included. -There are a number of disks, but no originals. -I believe it has the double density controller. From staylor at mrynet.com Sun Sep 19 05:03:49 2004 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <200409191003.i8JA3n3J017742@mrynet.com> Don's passing is a great loss to all collectors. May he rest in peace. At risk of sounding selfish already, did anyone ever archive his disk images? I had coincidentally been awaiting some from him these last few weeks, and to my knowledge there were no archives of the floppy images he'd amassed. -scott From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Sep 19 09:31:56 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: PDP8A chassis 50Hz Message-ID: <414D985C.2050006@hp.com> Question: Would the mismatch in mains frequency affect the performance of the rated ferro-resonant transformer (i.e. regulation)? > A PDP8A chassis is listed on eBay, in the USA > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124686380&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Wonder what someone will think when they find out it's 50Hz only. > It's in the pictures, but not in the writeup. > > Ed K. > > That should not really matter that much, it is still 115 volts. The block of iron in the transformer is a little overspec-ed for 60Hz. Ed G. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 19 12:27:54 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409191704.i8JH3KnD007569@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200409191727.i8JHRjJX011747@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> "50 Service" on an HP printer means that the fuser is not working (not reaching an acceptably high temperature within an acceptable time period, or, rarely, it's stuck on and overheating). In these particular models, the fuser is a heated roller system, there is a pressure roller (silicone rubber with a special "oil" on it to prevent sticking) and a heating roller, a hollow aluminum tube (also with a special silicon coating) with a heating element inside it. The heating element is a very high power cylindrical quartz lamp running the length of the center of the aluminum tube. The most likely cause of your problem is that the lamp has burned out, although there are other possibilities (rare, however). These can be replaced, but it may not be economical to do so. Also, examine the roller carefully, if any of the coating on the hollow aluminum tube has worn off, the tube should be replaced also (at some point, bare aluminum will literally leave brown scorch marks on the paper). These parts are available, but expect to pay $30 to $50 each for a new lamp and tube. The job is not that difficult if you know what you are doing, but substantially more difficult if you don't (big surprise, right?). You may be able to buy an entire working fuser assembly for less, but the lamp may have thousands of hours on it and the roller may be well worn. If you plan to keep the printers, a "true fix" with new parts really is the best way to go. Be careful working in this area, the lamp is AC line operated, and the roller is heated to nearly 400 degrees F. There are both shock and burn hazards. I have an actual factory service manual for the Laserjet II, I may scan it and make it into a PDF for the classic computer documentation effort. However, unlike Imsai, Altair, etc., HP is very much still in business and may take legal action if their copyrighted manuals are put on the web or otherwise distributed. I have found Laserjet IV service manuals on the web, and I have them downloaded. Just a note on economic viability, you can buy entire working HP 4 printers -- HP 4 Plus, the 12ppm version -- for well under $50, so putting in a $60 repair on a vastly inferior Laserjet II is of questionable economic viability. From charlesb at summerfield-technology.co.uk Sun Sep 19 12:08:25 2004 From: charlesb at summerfield-technology.co.uk (Charles Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest References: <20040911152743.13601.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <1094928826.12324.13.camel@weka.localdomain> <1095600294.22730.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <01d401c49e6e$f66e9550$7dc3033e@gamemachine> you could in fact quite legally broadcast a teletext signal from a small transmitter if you are capable of building one, you MUST be careful however to make sure that you get no spurious emissions and also dont use an aerial but a coax feeder between the tx and the tuner. (IE link it up exactly as you would a TV). I also have a program somewhere that ran on an RML 580Z that I wrote at school to simulate a teletext server and just made up the pages from text files and displayed them on the screen. it was written for a school message system above reception. If I get time some day I'll try and dig up the disk (if it still is readable) and zip it up and put it up somewhere. regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest > On Sat, 2004-09-18 at 22:20 +0100, gARetH baBB wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> > BBC was? I still have a pet project to get a real service up and >> > running >> > at the museum (and if a phone exchange can be simulated, then it's not >> > like we don't have plenty of old modem hardware lying around - acoustic >> > coupler, anyone?) >> >> Q: what do you think viewdata has in connection with teletext (apart from >> most of the display attributes) ? > > Both are examples of early information retrieval systems; the problem > with a museum exhibit being that it'd be somewhat illegal to broadcast > teletext over the airwaves! > > That doesn't stop the simulation using a service such as pip that I > mentioned earlier (which digging around appears to have been public- > access) across a dial-up link, though. > >>From a display point of view it'd make sense to combine it with a > viewdata system (in the sense that one or the other could be used at a > time by a terminal of some form - whether a BBC or whatever) simply to > avoid duplication of cabling, modems etc. > > And an example of a BBS would be a third option of course. It's a case > of making a modem think it was talking to a phone exchange and I'm not > sure what's involved there - but the Colossus guys know all about phone > equipment and have piles of period hardware lying about so I'm sure they > can offer help. > > I'm still not sure what was used server-side to construct and hold > teletext pages either (fro BBC's Ceefax or others); likely a DEC mini of > some sort - BBC machines for page composition? > > cheers > > Jules > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.759 / Virus Database: 508 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From sml49 at comcast.net Sun Sep 19 14:49:02 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP LaserJet Series II In-Reply-To: <200409190042.i8J0eqnF001366@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 Jim Isbell wrote: > Subject: Salvaging HP Laser Jet series II > I saved anything that had a wire connected to it and put all the > plastic, sheet metal and gear trains into the trash on the theory that > the gear trains looked tough enough to not be a failure point. Those machines have Canon engines that are really long-lived; I have an Apple LaserWriter Iig (originally a Iint) which has the same mechanism and it's been running (admittedly in light use lately) since October 1989. I wonder if anyone on the list has any kind of teardown instructions or lubrication instructions for these machines - mine sounds as if it can use a greasing when it's feeding paper - not a screeching sound but is sounds as if something's running dry in there. It's never been taken apart and Apple's hardbound book on the LW II doesn't give this kind of information. I'd hate to slop the wrong lube in the wrong place and damage this old workhorse as it enters its 16th year of service. Seth Lewin From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Sep 19 21:13:56 2004 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Rescue of a life-time.. or the year at the very least. In-Reply-To: <200409170121.14950.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 17, 2004 01:21:14 AM Message-ID: <200409200213.i8K2DvC1027538@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >From: Patrick Finnegan > >So, after forgetting to bid on the 11/780 that was on eBay, ending on >Sunday (I slept in 15 minutes too late), I decided to drop the guy a >message and see if he had another 11/780. > Hey Patrick, did the guy have any smaller stuff from that storage he was trying to get rid of as well? I'm in Milwaukee myself. Marty From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sun Sep 19 22:05:21 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! Message-ID: <200409200305.XAA23743@ss10.danlan.com> Hmm. I have a variety of iRMX86 distribution disks including, IIRC, Pascal and Fortran (and maybe PL/M) compilers. I also have Xenix distribution disks for the 286 flavor of Intel multibus box. There should be real manuals for everything as well. These will all be coming out of the crawlspace shortly... Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Sep 19 22:44:46 2004 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Odd PET 8032 mainboard In-Reply-To: <414906CE.3080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200409200344.i8K3ikkB022454@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> ben franchuk : > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Obviously that should read "Copyright 1980" (Otherwise I would > > have a REALLY vintage computer). > > Something like > COPYWRIGHT MLXXX I don't think they had copyright in those days. All software was copied manually by teams of dedicated monks using small hand-held magnets, and they were glad of all the help they could get. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From oconnor at wctc.net Sun Sep 19 22:55:41 2004 From: oconnor at wctc.net (Chrissy O'Connor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP5036A schematics Message-ID: <200409200353.i8K3rDsU090786@mail.wctc.net> Patrick, I saw your posting of 9 Jan 04 regarding the HP 5036A Service Manual. I am trying to obtain a copy. Do you still have the information? Thank you, Chuck O'Connor chuck@tcr-inc.com From JMeyer101 at aol.com Mon Sep 20 10:12:16 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: C4P Floppy Message-ID: <4B596DF6.0E6E3FA8.0233EB56@aol.com> Hello All, I am considering modifying an old 5 1/4 or even 3 1/2 drive to work with the 4P but have never done one before so I'm a bit weary (I've been given some coaching from a couple guys from CCTech on how to do the conversion and they say it's not a big deal. Thanks guys). However, I'd rather have an original to complete my system. I have the opportunity to pick one up from ebay at about $400, but that's a bit over my budget. Anyone know of a source where I can pick up a drive? Thanks, Jeff From JMeyer101 at aol.com Mon Sep 20 11:46:45 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Intellec power cord Message-ID: <155EC3D6.37D1833F.0233EB56@aol.com> I received both power cords on Friday. I ended up buying both cords Jack Rubin suggested (only about $6.00 each and I didn't want to waste time waiting if the first wasn't correct). I checked the polarity of both cords and the cord # 17952-B1-8 matches the polarity on the Intellec 4. Big thanks to Jack for pointing me to Newark to pick up the cord! And thanks to all others who gave guidance for how to verify the correct polarity. Thanks, Jeff From josh at scarecrow.com Mon Sep 20 11:56:50 2004 From: josh at scarecrow.com (Josh Warren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: kaypro 10 for sell!!! Message-ID: <20040920165535.216A4301DD@cmlapp14.siteprotect.com> I know this post is pretty old - still have one (or a Kaypro 2)? Looking for it - doesn't matter if it runs or not . Working on a random nostalgia project. Cheers, Josh. From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Sep 20 15:29:22 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question Message-ID: <200409202029.QAA839018@shell.TheWorld.com> >Were there any PDP11's as small as the DECmate III? Not really. The smallest box (available from DEC) into which one could place a PDP-11 was the Shoebox (SB-11, or BA11-VA, if I remember correctly) which was about a foot wide and about 9 inches deep. It had a 4slot backplane (4x2, Q, AB side only) and a power supply. This was enough to put together a CPU (11/2, KDF11-A, KDJ11-A), memory, serial lines, bootstrap (MXV11-B), network card (DEQNA or DELQA) and a disk interface (RQDX3). It was not meant for housing the actual disk.. that would have to be another box. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From waisun.chia at hp.com Tue Sep 21 09:04:25 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: BDV11/M8012 Manual? In-Reply-To: <414D3143.CE614FB5@groenenberg.net> References: <414D3143.CE614FB5@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <415034E9.7040901@hp.com> Quick one: Anybody has softcopy manual of BDV11? Or at least notes on jumper configs... Looked at all the usual places, but didn't come up with anything... /wai-sun From JMeyer101 at aol.com Tue Sep 21 10:04:36 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Intellec 8 Development System Message-ID: <2B66C1C8.4F019C12.0233EB56@aol.com> Looking for some advice on this deal. I found an Intellec 8 with instruction manual, Cassette Tape Unit (Mesonix Automation LTD - model # is listed as "Fitted DCR-3 Tape Unit"), Stand Alone Tape Reader/Transmitter (Addmaster 606)and a Desktop Punch Station (Litton - Sweda International, Inc Roytron 528 Punch). Seller is quoting two prices, one as-is and the other is "Cleaned and Working" (there is a $1500 difference between the two. I think I'll take my chances and clean it myself...). I already own an Intellec 4 and thought the 8 would be a nice addition. Not sure what a reasonable price for the whole lot would be. Any comments? Thanks, Jeff From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 12:55:23 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) "Re: computer flooring (fwd)" (Sep 21, 9:45) References: <20040921164514.6F6843CFE@spies.com> Message-ID: <10409211855.ZM3152@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 21 2004, 9:45, Al Kossow wrote: > > > this stuff is HARD to come by > > yup. > > I'm interested as well. > Where is it located? > > Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) may be interested > as well. Makes me feel pleased I got mine a few years ago (about 200 sq ft). $4 a tile is a good price but do check what condition it's in -- some types are quite prone to warping if badly stored (unevenly stacked) and they're worthless if they're warped. Also check the height of the stanchions, and whether they can be cut down if they're too tall. I got a local engineering company to cut 70 for me. Lastly, check if they're vinyl-clad or carpeted. Lifters for carpeted ones are relatively uncommon and expensive (I discovered this when we lost one recently and I had quite a task finding a decent replacement), plus carpeted ones tend to make for more dust and static, to say nothing of the problems of solder splashes, oily dirt, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 13:02:15 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd)" (Sep 21, 7:57) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921075633.10bf8a50@pc> Message-ID: <10409211902.ZM3159@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 21 2004, 7:57, John Foust wrote: > At 05:42 AM 9/21/2004, you wrote: > >Lots of 'em out there, John- not very expensive either. > > Late-night brain block. I own several, but I always > thought of them as "read the CF cards from my camera" devices. > They require special drivers. But USB thumb-memories don't, right? Readers I've seen use the standard drivers -- W2K and WinXP recognise them. The little cheap 6-in-one/7-in-one/8-in-one card readers just appear as multiple USB storage devices, like DOS disks (as do USB "pens"). I got mine here for about five quid. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 13:11:48 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921131050.04feddf0@pc> "In 1977, Ken Olsen, the founder and CEO of Digital Equipment Corporation, said, "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home." http://www.snopes.com/quotes/kenolsen.asp - John From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Sep 21 13:21:39 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040917120943.0093b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040917152403.008e9cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <007501c49f5e$668745e0$0200a8c0@geoff> <200409201626.41172.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921142014.032bd0d8@192.168.0.1> At 01:28 PM 9/21/2004, you wrote: >My vote's still for HAL: >http://images.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/04-09-04-campaigns/EPS.jpg > Hal's, "There is a message for you ..." is my email queue cue. Ed K. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 21 13:33:55 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron References: <200409140904.51651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200409160546.i8G5kdqZ014965@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <16720.29715.56570.366884@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Ewing writes: Greg> Sometimes I think it might be fun to build an emulator based on Greg> an FPGA. Then you wouldn't have any other instruction set in Greg> the way, either. :-) Greg> Has anyone out there done that? I don't know about the PDP-11. But yes, for the PDP-4 and PDP-8: http://www.spies.com/~dgc/ paul From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Sep 21 13:34:29 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP5036A schematics In-Reply-To: <200409200353.i8K3rDsU090786@mail.wctc.net> Message-ID: <003e01c4a009$a137b930$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Chuck, I traded my 5036A (and manual) and all my Otrona stuff to Marvin Johnston a few months ago for some S-100 goodies. I still have electronic copies of (only) the schematic, though. If that's of any help to you, let me know and I'll post it someplace where you can download it. Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chrissy O'Connor > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:56 PM > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP5036A schematics > > > Patrick, > > > > I saw your posting of 9 Jan 04 regarding the HP 5036A Service > Manual. I am trying to obtain a copy. Do you still have the > information? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Chuck O'Connor > > chuck@tcr-inc.com > From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Sep 21 13:38:19 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: dupes? References: Message-ID: <005b01c4a00a$2b2c30d0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Stupid question, but is any1 else getting dupe emails from a couple of days ago?? regards charles --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 17/09/2004 From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 21 13:38:09 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest In-Reply-To: <01d401c49e6e$f66e9550$7dc3033e@gamemachine> References: <20040911152743.13601.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <1094928826.12324.13.camel@weka.localdomain> <1095600294.22730.40.camel@weka.localdomain> <01d401c49e6e$f66e9550$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: <41507511.40703@gjcp.net> >> >> I'm still not sure what was used server-side to construct and hold >> teletext pages either (fro BBC's Ceefax or others); likely a DEC mini of >> some sort - BBC machines for page composition? >> >> cheers >> >> Jules I saw a thing once which was apparently a Prestel/Teletext page composer. From memory (and bear in mind I was probably about 9 or 10 at the time) it was a 19" rack with eurocards in it, a colour monitor on top and a very odd keyboard with lots of extra symbols engraved on the fronts of the keys. I do remember that they did things in conjunction with the key - R had a crosshatch symbol, and produced a character grid on the screen (and made the monitor make an ear-piercing howl!). I wish I could remember more about it. The guy who owned it was a friend of my late father's, who was very into amateur radio and computers. IIRC he was called Martin Wheeler, and he moved to Australia to farm crocodiles or something. Gordon. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 21 13:39:11 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock References: Message-ID: <16720.30031.952616.382830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "FaLLnAnGeL" == FaLLnAnGeL writes: FaLLnAnGeL> Hi, My dad has one of those self winding clocks, and i FaLLnAnGeL> was wondering if you could point me in the direction of FaLLnAnGeL> finding a wiring diagram for it? thanks for your time Self-winding? Do you mean an electrically powered pendulum clock? That could be a Synchronome or something analogous. Not much to it. It's basically a switch connected to a solenoid. There probably are two bolts or the like on it, where you'd connect the power. Try a flashlight battery (a couple if one isn't enough), or, if you're paranoid, a regulated power supply with current limiting so you can avoid generating smoke if there is a short somewhere. If it's a Synchronome, a beautiful reference (if you can find it, I believe it's out of print) "Electrical Timekeeping" by Frank Hope-Jones, the inventor of that technology. paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 13:36:40 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: ITEMS LIST............ (fwd) Message-ID: I did a BCC of the message below to the list but it didn't go through for some reason. I wonder why not? Anyway, this is the last message I sent to my "customer". I'm anxiously awaiting his reply. I can't wait to get behind the wheels of that Lamborghini with my personal escort after a refreshing milk bath. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: mark green Subject: Re: ITEMS LIST............ On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > hello > thank you for the reply i we like to ship in 3 day plaese caculate > the shipping cost to this address > 40 bello street papa ajao mushin lagos nigeria 23401 If you choose my Personal Delivery Option then I would be there in about 3 days. It will take me 1-2 days to prepare and then 1 day for travel, so I would be there on Friday or Saturday. Checking around, the best price on airfare seems to be $1,782 for a roundtrip. I'll require two nights in the hotel, so I imagine $200 per night should cover that. For food I imagine I can get by on $100. After much research, I can get a Lamborghini for $463 for the day (I had to really haggle on this one) but it will require a $1000 deposit for the short rental. A good personal escort will be another $1000 for the time I will be there (she must be clean, bathed, and shaven, and her paperwork certifying she is 100% disease-free must be notarized). Throw in another $100 for the French wine and probably $50 for the milk bath. So that comes out to something like $3,695. Please send a valid, non-fraudulent cashier's check for US$12,457.48 (product + shipping) to me and I'll be there by Saturday with your brand new Sony laptops plus your Commodore Business Machines 1526 Printer (quantity 5) and your Okidata Okimate 21 printer (also quantity 5). I look very forward to accumulating this transaction in the swiftest feasible timeslot capable to man. Thank you for your business!!! Osama P.S. I just want to give a shout-out to my homies on CCTALK! VCF is in the house, boyeeee!!! > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > > > thank you for therespond plaese i want you to caculate the total > > cost of the first order and 5 sony laptop plaese speed up the caculation > > so that i can make the payment and your reply is late plaese i need a > > qiuck reply > > Ok, the total without shipping is $8,762.48. I took the liberty of > configuring the laptops with the maximum 64K of memory and BASIC language > installed via the Bubble Memory module carrier, since you did not specify > what you wanted exactly. I also installed two 5.25" 140K floppy disks (I > didn't have any 8" disk drives available). > > How quickly would you like them shipped? Your options are: > > 1) Personal same-day delivery - I will deliver them to your door but you > must pay for the airfare, a hotel room, rental car (I require no less than > a high speed Italian car), personal escort that is certified disease free, > and three meals a day plus dessert and a bottle of French wine with my > milk bath at the end of each day. > > 2) Surface mail - 6-8 weeks > > 3) Camel courier (my cousin in Saudi Arabia runs this service) which will > take about 2-3 weeks once the products arrive in an undisclosed location > in an unidentified gulf state. > > Please advise immediately as payment will be required soon. > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 13:37:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, chris wrote: > >By the way, for proper context, here's the original message thread from my > >"customer". I have no idea where he saw that I have Commodore or Okidata > >printers. But you do realize this does make it on topic, since those are > >very vintage! :) > > I assume you will fill us in on how this plays out? Or at least point us > to a web page where you post it? I'm not going to go the full webpage route unless it becomes truly interesting. Right now it's just a fun diversion from my otherwise dull, bland and boring life. > Oh, and how is your price on just dwibbles? I'm a little shy on them > myself :-) For you, only $6.37 each but we only accept payment in the form of non-fraudulent cashier's checks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 13:38:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040921164514.6F6843CFE@spies.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > > > this stuff is HARD to come by > > yup. > > I'm interested as well. > Where is it located? > > Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) may be interested > as well. I have no idea. You'll have to contact the guy directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:28:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040921142839.0098b100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> BTW does anyone know why these clowns always use Nigeria? It's a dead giveaway. Joe At 09:04 AM 9/21/04 -0700, you wrote: > >By the way, for proper context, here's the original message thread from my >"customer". I have no idea where he saw that I have Commodore or Okidata >printers. But you do realize this does make it on topic, since those are >very vintage! :) > >P.S. I MapQuested that address and it exists apparently. Can someone from >that area sanity check it? I wonder what's there... > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:46:25 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >To: mark green >Cc: utl@rivne.com >Subject: Re: international order........... > >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > >> good day sir/ms >> hi my name is green i am a business man, i live in usa i have a store in canada and uk, i purchase and sell goods from one store to another store. but for security purpose this is my address 27 East 158th Place >> South Holland, illinois, >> USA , 60473 >> so there is a new store i wanted to set up in nigeria and i will like to place an order form your store to that store in nigeria. >> but i want you to some straigth i don't live in nigeria because some people don't want to ship to that country fir some reason and i don't know why but for me i like the country >> because i make a lot of profit there and idon't realy stay there i due go and come back for business i am a wihte man that love black people, >> so i will like to know if you accept credit card for your payment and if you can ship to the country. >> my couirer service that use is via, >> dhl >> fedex >> so iwill place my order immidately you recieve you reply >> regards >> green > >Yes. > > >Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >To: mark green >Subject: Re: ITEMS LIST............ > >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > >> hello >> thank you for the reply,so i can now make my order pls see the goods >below: >> 1, >> Commodore Business Machines 1526 Printer >> QTY:5 >> 2, >> Okidata Okimate 20 >> QTY:5 >> so you can cacu;ate the total cost of the goods so that can make >the >payment > >I only have Okidata 21 models. They are 1 better than the model 20. Is >this OK? My price is $37.62 each. > >For the 1526 printer, I have 7 in stock. $39.95 each. If you buy all 7 >I'll give you a better price. Do you need extra dwibbles? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 21 13:44:43 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <10409211902.ZM3159@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921075633.10bf8a50@pc> <10409211902.ZM3159@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921134411.04ff4f88@pc> At 01:02 PM 9/21/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: >Readers I've seen use the standard drivers -- W2K and WinXP recognise >them. The little cheap 6-in-one/7-in-one/8-in-one card readers just >appear as multiple USB storage devices, like DOS disks (as do USB >"pens"). I got mine here for about five quid. I must be thinking about Win98 machines that needed the drivers. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 13:46:22 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409160546.i8G5kdqZ014965@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> from "Greg Ewing" at Sep 16, 2004 05:46:39 PM Message-ID: <200409211846.i8LIkMcb018448@onyx.spiritone.com> Greg Ewing: > Lyle Bickley : > > > I thinks its a LOT easier (and more fun) to simply run it on real > > DEC hardware - or if you can't create that environment - run it on > > Intel via the SIMH or ERSATZ emulators. > > Maybe run an emulator directly on the hardware, without any other OS > in the way? That would be the next best thing to implementing the OS > on the bare metal. > > Sometimes I think it might be fun to build an emulator based on an > FPGA. Then you wouldn't have any other instruction set in the way, > either. :-) > > Has anyone out there done that? For an emulator the route to go is a dedicated box, with as lean of an OS installation as is needed to boot the computer and run the Emulator. That is if you're looking for optimum performance (and if you are, running on a dual processor box would be good as well). As for the FPGA route, there are commercial PDP-11 CPU boards out there that use FPGA's for the CPU. Oddly enough, while hobbyists have done several DEC CPU's in FPGA's (including two different PDP-10 projects), no one to my knowledge has done a PDP-11. I for one would love to see a FPGA Hobbyist implementation of a PDP-11 that includes memory, SLU's and a disk controller, and could either be a SBC, or go onto a Q-Bus board. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:48:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Guess what the hurricane(s) left behind! In-Reply-To: <200409200305.XAA23743@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040921144854.00995920@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dan, Oh Boy! It sounds like a treasure trove! Can you send me a list after you get it out? Joe At 11:05 PM 9/19/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hmm. I have a variety of iRMX86 distribution disks including, IIRC, Pascal >and Fortran (and maybe PL/M) compilers. I also have Xenix distribution disks >for the 286 flavor of Intel multibus box. There should be real manuals for >everything as well. These will all be coming out of the crawlspace shortly... > > Dan Lanciani > ddl@danlan.*com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:50:04 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP5036A schematics In-Reply-To: <200409200353.i8K3rDsU090786@mail.wctc.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040921145004.00938d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If he doesn't, I do. Joe At 10:55 PM 9/19/04 -0500, you wrote: >Patrick, > > > >I saw your posting of 9 Jan 04 regarding the HP 5036A Service Manual. I am >trying to obtain a copy. Do you still have the information? > > > >Thank you, > > > >Chuck O'Connor > >chuck@tcr-inc.com > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 21 10:04:57 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <015301c49fb3$ae6da480$0500fea9@game> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <015301c49fb3$ae6da480$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040921170457.26a89ff7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:19:14 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > Exactly why is DAT such a bad storage format? Because the tapes get unreadable quite often and quick. The drives fail nearly as often as the tapes. DAT is write only backup. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 13:48:30 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> from "Edward" at Sep 17, 2004 06:13:08 PM Message-ID: <200409211848.i8LImUmK018589@onyx.spiritone.com> > Well, today was a truly super find day. Good Grief, I think that's the understatement of the decade! Nice haul!!! Zane From CPUMECH at aol.com Tue Sep 21 13:49:24 2004 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts Message-ID: <7e.593f9773.2e81d1b4@aol.com> For $25 you can buy a new typewheel for a 33TTY. Call Dataterm Inc. 781-938-1010 in Woburn, MA. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Sep 21 13:47:02 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 21, 04 11:38:30 am Message-ID: <200409211847.OAA07376@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > this stuff is HARD to come by > > > > yup. > > > > I'm interested as well. > > Where is it located? > > > > Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) may be interested > > as well. > > I have no idea. You'll have to contact the guy directly. > > -- Sellam, Are you sure you don't need some computer flooring? Cheers, Bryan Pope From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 13:50:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: dupes? In-Reply-To: <005b01c4a00a$2b2c30d0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > Stupid question, but is any1 else getting dupe emails from a couple of days > ago?? Hai! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 21 13:54:41 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409191727.i8JHRjJX011747@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com > References: <200409191704.i8JH3KnD007569@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040921113934.03231d10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 01:27 PM 9/19/04 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: >Just a note on economic viability, you can buy entire working HP 4 printers >-- HP 4 Plus, the 12ppm version -- for well under $50, so putting in a $60 >repair on a vastly inferior Laserjet II is of questionable economic >viability. I talked to a friend today that scraps printers, and indeed the once mighty have fallen. The plain 4 isn't worth anything to him, and a nice 4 plus is about $30. I may just pick up a 4 plus from him, since we tend to leave the printer on 24/7, and the plus seems to have better powerdown ability. Snooping on HPs web site I found a printer cost comparison done by some third party and I am assuming including all the factors like depriciation and consumables. The LJ4 had the lowest cost about 0.012 per page, with most about double that until the most recent high end LJ like the 8000. Ink jets are highway robbers by comparison. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 21 14:01:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: ITEMS LIST............ (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040921150101.00990810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> ROFL! What's next, VCF Nigeria? Joe At 11:36 AM 9/21/04 -0700, you wrote: > >I did a BCC of the message below to the list but it didn't go through for >some reason. I wonder why not? > >Anyway, this is the last message I sent to my "customer". I'm anxiously >awaiting his reply. I can't wait to get behind the wheels of that >Lamborghini with my personal escort after a refreshing milk bath. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >To: mark green >Subject: Re: ITEMS LIST............ > >On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > >> hello >> thank you for the reply i we like to ship in 3 day plaese caculate >> the shipping cost to this address >> 40 bello street papa ajao mushin lagos nigeria 23401 > >If you choose my Personal Delivery Option then I would be there in about 3 >days. It will take me 1-2 days to prepare and then 1 day for travel, so I >would be there on Friday or Saturday. > >Checking around, the best price on airfare seems to be $1,782 for a >roundtrip. I'll require two nights in the hotel, so I imagine $200 per >night should cover that. For food I imagine I can get by on $100. After >much research, I can get a Lamborghini for $463 for the day (I had to >really haggle on this one) but it will require a $1000 deposit for the >short rental. A good personal escort will be another $1000 for the time I >will be there (she must be clean, bathed, and shaven, and her paperwork >certifying she is 100% disease-free must be notarized). Throw in another >$100 for the French wine and probably $50 for the milk bath. So that >comes out to something like $3,695. > >Please send a valid, non-fraudulent cashier's check for US$12,457.48 >(product + shipping) to me and I'll be there by Saturday with your brand >new Sony laptops plus your Commodore Business Machines 1526 Printer >(quantity 5) and your Okidata Okimate 21 printer (also quantity 5). > >I look very forward to accumulating this transaction in the swiftest >feasible timeslot capable to man. > >Thank you for your business!!! > >Osama > >P.S. I just want to give a shout-out to my homies on CCTALK! VCF is in >the house, boyeeee!!! > >> >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: >> >> > thank you for therespond plaese i want you to caculate the total >> > cost of the first order and 5 sony laptop plaese speed up the caculation >> > so that i can make the payment and your reply is late plaese i need a >> > qiuck reply >> >> Ok, the total without shipping is $8,762.48. I took the liberty of >> configuring the laptops with the maximum 64K of memory and BASIC language >> installed via the Bubble Memory module carrier, since you did not specify >> what you wanted exactly. I also installed two 5.25" 140K floppy disks (I >> didn't have any 8" disk drives available). >> >> How quickly would you like them shipped? Your options are: >> >> 1) Personal same-day delivery - I will deliver them to your door but you >> must pay for the airfare, a hotel room, rental car (I require no less than >> a high speed Italian car), personal escort that is certified disease free, >> and three meals a day plus dessert and a bottle of French wine with my >> milk bath at the end of each day. >> >> 2) Surface mail - 6-8 weeks >> >> 3) Camel courier (my cousin in Saudi Arabia runs this service) which will >> take about 2-3 weeks once the products arrive in an undisclosed location >> in an unidentified gulf state. >> >> Please advise immediately as payment will be required soon. >> >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 21 14:02:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: ITEMS LIST............ (fwd) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040921150208.0098e7f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> ROFL! What's next, VCF Nigeria? Joe PS You forgot to add the armed guard(s) to your list of expenses. At 11:36 AM 9/21/04 -0700, you wrote: > >I did a BCC of the message below to the list but it didn't go through for >some reason. I wonder why not? > >Anyway, this is the last message I sent to my "customer". I'm anxiously >awaiting his reply. I can't wait to get behind the wheels of that >Lamborghini with my personal escort after a refreshing milk bath. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >To: mark green >Subject: Re: ITEMS LIST............ > >On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: > >> hello >> thank you for the reply i we like to ship in 3 day plaese caculate >> the shipping cost to this address >> 40 bello street papa ajao mushin lagos nigeria 23401 > >If you choose my Personal Delivery Option then I would be there in about 3 >days. It will take me 1-2 days to prepare and then 1 day for travel, so I >would be there on Friday or Saturday. > >Checking around, the best price on airfare seems to be $1,782 for a >roundtrip. I'll require two nights in the hotel, so I imagine $200 per >night should cover that. For food I imagine I can get by on $100. After >much research, I can get a Lamborghini for $463 for the day (I had to >really haggle on this one) but it will require a $1000 deposit for the >short rental. A good personal escort will be another $1000 for the time I >will be there (she must be clean, bathed, and shaven, and her paperwork >certifying she is 100% disease-free must be notarized). Throw in another >$100 for the French wine and probably $50 for the milk bath. So that >comes out to something like $3,695. > >Please send a valid, non-fraudulent cashier's check for US$12,457.48 >(product + shipping) to me and I'll be there by Saturday with your brand >new Sony laptops plus your Commodore Business Machines 1526 Printer >(quantity 5) and your Okidata Okimate 21 printer (also quantity 5). > >I look very forward to accumulating this transaction in the swiftest >feasible timeslot capable to man. > >Thank you for your business!!! > >Osama > >P.S. I just want to give a shout-out to my homies on CCTALK! VCF is in >the house, boyeeee!!! > >> >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, mark green wrote: >> >> > thank you for therespond plaese i want you to caculate the total >> > cost of the first order and 5 sony laptop plaese speed up the caculation >> > so that i can make the payment and your reply is late plaese i need a >> > qiuck reply >> >> Ok, the total without shipping is $8,762.48. I took the liberty of >> configuring the laptops with the maximum 64K of memory and BASIC language >> installed via the Bubble Memory module carrier, since you did not specify >> what you wanted exactly. I also installed two 5.25" 140K floppy disks (I >> didn't have any 8" disk drives available). >> >> How quickly would you like them shipped? Your options are: >> >> 1) Personal same-day delivery - I will deliver them to your door but you >> must pay for the airfare, a hotel room, rental car (I require no less than >> a high speed Italian car), personal escort that is certified disease free, >> and three meals a day plus dessert and a bottle of French wine with my >> milk bath at the end of each day. >> >> 2) Surface mail - 6-8 weeks >> >> 3) Camel courier (my cousin in Saudi Arabia runs this service) which will >> take about 2-3 weeks once the products arrive in an undisclosed location >> in an unidentified gulf state. >> >> Please advise immediately as payment will be required soon. >> >> > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Tue Sep 21 14:08:47 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:22 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP LaserJet Series II References: Message-ID: <41507C3F.8020006@cableone.net> My HP series II makes a "groaning" sound as the paper exits into the paper tray. No other symptoms, just the "Groan". Is that something to fix now or something that is normal? Seth Lewin wrote: >On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 Jim Isbell wrote: > > > >>Subject: Salvaging HP Laser Jet series II >> >> > > > >>I saved anything that had a wire connected to it and put all the >>plastic, sheet metal and gear trains into the trash on the theory that >>the gear trains looked tough enough to not be a failure point. >> >> > >Those machines have Canon engines that are really long-lived; I have an >Apple LaserWriter Iig (originally a Iint) which has the same mechanism and >it's been running (admittedly in light use lately) since October 1989. I >wonder if anyone on the list has any kind of teardown instructions or >lubrication instructions for these machines - mine sounds as if it can use a >greasing when it's feeding paper - not a screeching sound but is sounds as >if something's running dry in there. It's never been taken apart and Apple's >hardbound book on the LW II doesn't give this kind of information. I'd hate >to slop the wrong lube in the wrong place and damage this old workhorse as >it enters its 16th year of service. > >Seth Lewin > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 14:11:31 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <20040921170457.26a89ff7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Sep 21, 2004 05:04:57 PM Message-ID: <200409211911.i8LJBWlf019519@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Exactly why is DAT such a bad storage format? > Because the tapes get unreadable quite often and quick. The drives fail > nearly as often as the tapes. DAT is write only backup. And if you don't know what model of DAT drive the archives were originally written on because someone else did the archive, tossed the drives, and didn't keep records... Zane From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Tue Sep 21 14:15:17 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) References: Message-ID: <41507DC5.3090803@cableone.net> If you do this you will be taken for a bunch of money. Dont touch a Nigerian offer with a ten foot pole. Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >By the way, for proper context, here's the original message thread from my >"customer". I have no idea where he saw that I have Commodore or Okidata >printers. But you do realize this does make it on topic, since those are >very vintage! :) > >P.S. I MapQuested that address and it exists apparently. Can someone from >that area sanity check it? I wonder what's there... > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 21 14:15:59 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <200409211848.i8LImUmK018589@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <414B0D14.9852DF2F@groenenberg.net> from "Edward" at Sep 17,2004 06:13:08 PM <200409211848.i8LImUmK018589@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5332.62.177.191.201.1095794159.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> Well, today was a truly super find day. > > Good Grief, I think that's the understatement of the decade! Nice haul!!! > > Zane > > Indeed it was, and I was fortunate that some items did not arrive before we picked it up, as the car was nearly stuffed to it's max. Yesterday, I picked up 9 more suitcases with another 100+ RX02 floppies, more tapes, a portable TU-58, a box of TU-58 tapes, and 3 Vax diags on cdrom (pester Fred v K for these, he has them now) and 1 more RK06/07 tester/exerciser. Ed G. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Sep 21 14:19:17 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <0409211919.AA07636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John Foust wrote: > "In 1977, Ken Olsen, the founder and CEO of Digital Equipment > Corporation, said, "There is no reason for any individual to > have a computer in his home." 2004 now and I still agree with that 100%. MS From cb at mythtech.net Tue Sep 21 14:24:40 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP LaserJet Series II Message-ID: >My HP series II makes a "groaning" sound as the paper exits into the >paper tray. No other symptoms, just the "Groan". Is that something to >fix now or something that is normal? IIRC, that is the exit rollers. Like most rubber rollers, they harden over time, causing them to start groaning as paper passes thru. I don't think it is something you have to fix ASAP. If you ignore it, eventually paper will stop exiting and jam. I repaired mine with a kit from fixyourownprinter.com (I also did the pickup rollers at the same time). Mine was for an Apple LaserWriter IINT, but its the same engine. -chris From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 21 14:35:34 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921131050.04feddf0@pc> Message-ID: But you should read the ENTIRE item, and understand the context! >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:12 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen >>> >>> >>> "In 1977, Ken Olsen, the founder and CEO of Digital >>> Equipment Corporation, said, "There is no reason for any >>> individual to have a computer in his home." >>> >>> http://www.snopes.com/quotes/kenolsen.asp >>> >>> - John >>> From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 14:29:01 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <5332.62.177.191.201.1095794159.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "quapla@xs4all.nl" at Sep 21, 2004 09:15:59 PM Message-ID: <200409211929.i8LJT1lc020055@onyx.spiritone.com> > more tapes, a portable TU-58, a box of TU-58 tapes, and 3 Vax diags on BTW, what I found oddly cool after looking at the pictures were the portable floppy drives. Out of curiousity, what kind of Unibus/Q-Bus interfaces are included with the RX50? Zane From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 14:35:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: ITEMS LIST............ (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040921150101.00990810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > ROFL! What's next, VCF Nigeria? Yes, the Villainy, Counterfeiting and Fraud expo! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 14:36:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <41507DC5.3090803@cableone.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > If you do this you will be taken for a bunch of money. Dont touch a > Nigerian offer with a ten foot pole. You mean no milk bath? :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 21 14:43:54 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Super DEC find today In-Reply-To: <200409211929.i8LJT1lc020055@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <5332.62.177.191.201.1095794159.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from"quapla@xs4all.nl" at Sep 21, 2004 09:15:59 PM <200409211929.i8LJT1lc020055@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <25270.62.177.191.201.1095795834.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> more tapes, a portable TU-58, a box of TU-58 tapes, and 3 Vax diags on > > BTW, what I found oddly cool after looking at the pictures were the > portable floppy drives. Out of curiousity, what kind of Unibus/Q-Bus > interfaces are included with the RX50? > > Zane > The portable RX02 was home made, a single drive with the PSU crammed together in a media suitcase with little space to spare for some floppies. The portable RX50 came with an RQDX1 & matching disto board,a RQDX3 with matching distro board and an RUX50 for connecting it to an Unibus system. The 2nd 'portable' RX50 was a homebuild one, a drive mounted on the slide, which was in turn screwed to the side of a case (type briefcase), with a small PSU at the bottom. Ed G. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 21 14:53:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: ITEMS LIST............ (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> > ROFL! What's next, VCF Nigeria? >>> >>> Yes, the Villainy, Counterfeiting and Fraud expo! >>> >>> -- >>> Admission will be free, just leave your ID at the door! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 21 15:00:08 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) References: Message-ID: <41508848.3000900@jetnet.ab.ca> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>>Is anyone interested in computer flooring? See below. I > My wife you kill me if I did our entire house, garage, patio........ But hey is that not the area that the classic computers spread out into .... :) From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 21 15:02:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921131050.04feddf0@pc> Message-ID: <16720.35048.590441.717025@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> But you should read the ENTIRE item, and understand the David> context! I just did. It looks like an amazing case of trying to spin the story and make it look like Ken didn't miss the PC opportunity entirely. It won't wash. He did miss it, and his attempts to spin it into something else after the fact are disappointing. Besides, never mind what he thought he meant when he talked about it a decade or two later. What matters is what DEC people (and others) thought he meant in the early days of the PC. For that audience, the obvious meaning of the single sentence is what was heard and what set the direction, and the rest is history. paul From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 15:18:21 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: "McFadden, Mike" "RE: computer flooring (fwd)" (Sep 21, 12:58) References: Message-ID: <10409212118.ZM3377@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 21 2004, 12:58, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Offering a bribe; I'll throw in some of my wife's homemade chocolate > chip cookies for the right deal. She will be glad to make them if the > tiles disappear. LOL! My wife would be very glad to see the some of the stuff *on* the tiles disappear! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 15:16:29 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Mine's smaller than yours (Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron) In-Reply-To: Greg Ewing "Mine's smaller than yours (Re: rewriting legacy OS for new iron)" (Sep 16, 17:40) References: <200409160540.i8G5ePn9014954@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <10409212116.ZM3372@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 16 2004, 17:40, Greg Ewing wrote: > Ron Hudson : > > > I wish I had some DEC hardware, what's the physically smallest PDP11 > > one could find? > > I have an SBC-11 system consisting of a power supply and > 4-slot backplane that's about the size of a couple of > lunch boxes. > > Can anyone beat that? I can't (smallest 11 I have is an 11/03 with MXV11 and a Baydel floppy controller in an H9273 with an ex-PC PSU), but I once wanted to put together a system to control some other device that had serial ports, and the easiest way seemed to be to use an 11/03 or 11/23 processor and an MXV11. I got as far as setting aside a dual-height processor, an MXV11, and a PSU, and obtaining a set of DEC connectors to build a 2x2 backplane, but it never got assembled. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 15:28:32 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <200409191704.i8JH3KnD007569@huey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20040921113934.03231d10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <011001c4a019$90a14090$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: RE: HP Printers > At 01:27 PM 9/19/04 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > >Just a note on economic viability, you can buy entire working HP 4 printers > >-- HP 4 Plus, the 12ppm version -- for well under $50, so putting in a $60 > >repair on a vastly inferior Laserjet II is of questionable economic > >viability. > > I talked to a friend today that scraps printers, and indeed the once mighty > have fallen. The plain 4 isn't worth anything to him, and a nice 4 plus is > about $30. I may just pick up a 4 plus from him, since we tend to leave the > printer on 24/7, and the plus seems to have better powerdown ability. > > Snooping on HPs web site I found a printer cost comparison done by some > third party and I am assuming including all the factors like depriciation > and consumables. The LJ4 had the lowest cost about 0.012 per page, with > most about double that until the most recent high end LJ like the 8000. Ink > jets are highway robbers by comparison. > You really can't beat a laser printer for cheap B&W output, not sure how the color lasers fare against inkjets. The only thing hurting the old laserjets is speed, DPI, and no built in networking. From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 21 15:31:59 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: international order........... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <41507DC5.3090803@cableone.net> References: <41507DC5.3090803@cableone.net> Message-ID: <1095798694.3765.340.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 12:15, Jim Isbell wrote: > If you do this you will be taken for a bunch of money. Dont touch a > Nigerian offer with a ten foot pole. Yes, even in instances when they do send a cashable check (it happens as part of the mechanism with real suckers), three weeks later your bank comes after YOU when some international money mechanism turns out to be a scam. YOU have the valid address and ID, and THEY are long-gone, and the banks want their money back! There's a website of a woman who really took some scammers for a ride ("buying" horses from her) and she really sucked them in and burned the scammers, but man, it sounds like it was a full time job! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 21 15:32:32 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd)" (Sep 21, 13:44) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> <02d301c49fc7$b0af6710$7900a8c0@athlon1200> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921075633.10bf8a50@pc> <10409211902.ZM3159@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921134411.04ff4f88@pc> Message-ID: <10409212132.ZM3384@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 21 2004, 13:44, John Foust wrote: > At 01:02 PM 9/21/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >Readers I've seen use the standard drivers -- W2K and WinXP recognise > >them. The little cheap 6-in-one/7-in-one/8-in-one card readers just > >appear as multiple USB storage devices, like DOS disks (as do USB > >"pens"). I got mine here for about five quid. > > I must be thinking about Win98 machines that needed the drivers. Probably. I remember it was fun trying to get those things to work with W95 (for certain values of "fun"). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 15:47:14 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921131050.04feddf0@pc> <16720.35048.590441.717025@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <012701c4a01c$2cda77e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: RE: Snopes on Ken Olsen > >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: > > David> But you should read the ENTIRE item, and understand the > David> context! > > I just did. It looks like an amazing case of trying to spin the story > and make it look like Ken didn't miss the PC opportunity entirely. It > won't wash. He did miss it, and his attempts to spin it into > something else after the fact are disappointing. > > Besides, never mind what he thought he meant when he talked about it a > decade or two later. What matters is what DEC people (and others) > thought he meant in the early days of the PC. For that audience, the > obvious meaning of the single sentence is what was heard and what set > the direction, and the rest is history. > > paul > > If you look back in the 70's exactly what would the average person need an expensive Apple II or equivalent machine at home for? The only reason the Apple II took of was because of VisiCalc (spreadsheet) and what that software offered to businesses. If you look at what most computer users do with their machines today (email, www, online shopping, eBay, news, games, quicken, etc) none of this existed in the 70's and 80's. The prices for machines back then also dwarfed what they cost now (rich tech toy compared to a commodity today). The content, pricepoint, and standardization needed for the PC to become what it is today was not around in the 70's and most of the 80's. Having a general use PC in the home didn't take off until the 90's for most people (most commodore and amiga products were sold to kids for gaming and programming). To me some inventions were designed as solutions for problems (the light bulb) while others are solutions in search of a problem ( early PC's). It is obvious that the people driving the PC market today didn't have a clue what the market today would look like 20+ years ago. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 21 16:19:42 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409211619.42070.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 21 September 2004 12:49, David V. Corbin wrote: > It is located in Indiana... Hmm. I'd be interested if I didn't already have 300 or so tiles, and noewhere to put them. : ) When they replaced the window-wall with offices at work, they put in new raised flooring, and sent the old stuff out to storage, which eventually got cleaned out. The people at Purdue's surplus place decided it was worthless (they're a slightly odd size, like 24-3/16" square or something) so I kept them from throwing them out. Not all the tiles are full (some have cutouts, or are partial tiles) and they've got a wood core, so scrappers aren't really interested in them either. I'm saving them for when I end up with a house (or build a place) that can use them. I'll have to get floor stands, but that should be cheaper than having to buy the whole thing... or I probably could try to build a framework for them. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From acme at gbronline.com Tue Sep 21 17:55:26 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Don Maslin References: <200409190457.i8J4v5tg040991@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <00de01c4a02e$16ad1c40$214f0945@thegoodw> Although it's been a few years, Don helped me big-time on several occasions, and we chatted back and forth several times by email. I'm originally from San Diego (Don lived in La Jolla, a nearby city) and he once worked at General Dynamics, as did my parents. I miss him already. Glen 0/0 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:57 AM Subject: Don Maslin > Yet another e-mail virus forged my address on an e-mail to his > address, and it bounced to me with something like "mailbox full". > Which made me think, I haven't seen anything from him since 10 August > or so, and while I've never met him I think he's an old-timer.... > > A Google search on 'Maslin "San Diego"' found > > which says: > > DONALD A. MASLIN > > Nov. 2, 1927-Aug. 28, 2004 > > Donald A. Maslin, 76, of La Jolla died Aug. 28. He was born in New > Haven, Conn., and was a combat systems department head for the > Navy. He served in the Coast Guard and was a member of the San Diego > Computer Society. > > Survivors include his wife, Bristol; and sister, Margaret Stadtler of > Versailles, Ky. > > No services were planned. > > A scattering of ashes was planned. > > Arrangements: Telophase Cremation Society. > > (end quote) > > -Frank McConnell > From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 21 18:12:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095808358.3765.670.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 08:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > This service managed to survive the dot-bomb: > > http://www.xdrive.com/ > > It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to > some storage space sitting on their servers. A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS. I wonder (only academically) how they handle privacy, access by authorities, etc. For data integrity, I assume they at least run RAID5 and hopefully multiply geographically diverse data centers (but I would ask not assume if I were to use them -- and get it in writing :-) It's kinda like paying for a burial plot. Fresh flowers and cut grass, but you and all your relatives are dead and stop paying, they dig you up and toss your bones in an anonymous pile. Good for salesmammals on the road I suppose, but really, 10GB fits into the smallest of laptops, and if you need 100GB of portable data, there's DVD-Rs. From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Tue Sep 21 19:34:34 2004 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: ultrix 4.5 vax Message-ID: <887.761T1700T943424rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> Hello My vaxserver 3100 has been installed with ultrix 4.5, I get alot better along with a unix than with vms, I was wondering if someone has keeped a copy of the different security updates from DEC ? I know the freeware archive at ftp.eagle.y.se , and I have installed the different interessing things from there. I graped the gnu things there and got unmbasic compiled, its not vaxbasic but is basic, actual not that slow either. Did a small inventory the other day, my commodore machines are staring to take up abit of space, had 13 64 machines of different types, and a 1541 or 1541II for every one of the. just needs to figure out a way to cluster them through IEC :) Maybe Cameron Kaiser can help here. regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: rachael@rachael.dyndns.org url: http://rachael.dyndns.org fido: 2:237/38.8 From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 21 18:42:17 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 21, 2004 08:40:52 AM Message-ID: <20040921234217.D386E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > Very cool, very handy. Might be a good solution for home or small > businesses to back up files off-site. > > Hell, *I* should start using it! Currently, I take care of three websevers for a client. For backups I use a fourth server elsewhere (I don't know where it's phycially located) that uses rsync to backup all the sites on the three servers (nightly via cron---once the initial backup is made, the nightly backup only takes about 10 minutes). We are expecting to get another server just for backups as well. -spc (It also helps that the webclients keep local copies of their sites as well ... ) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 18:42:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Scamming the scammers (was Re: international order........... (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <1095798694.3765.340.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > There's a website of a woman who really took some scammers for a ride > ("buying" horses from her) and she really sucked them in and burned the > scammers, but man, it sounds like it was a full time job! http://www.bustedupcowgirl.com/scampage.html I can't wait to read this. (The music on the page is highly annoying though...) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 19:21:02 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <012701c4a01c$2cda77e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > If you look back in the 70's exactly what would the average person need an > expensive Apple II or equivalent machine at home for? The only reason the Have you ever heard of a thing called video games? > Apple II took of was because of VisiCalc (spreadsheet) and what that > software offered to businesses. If you look at what most computer users do > with their machines today (email, www, online shopping, eBay, news, games, > quicken, etc) none of this existed in the 70's and 80's. The prices for > machines back then also dwarfed what they cost now (rich tech toy compared > to a commodity today). This is silly and specious. There were PLENTY of uses for a computer in the home back in the 1970s: word processing is just one obvious application. You are over-looking the thousands of unique uses people found for computers at a personal level. > The content, pricepoint, and standardization needed for the PC to become > what it is today was not around in the 70's and most of the 80's. Having a That may be, but it didn't stop millions of computers being sold to home users throughout the 1980s. Regardless of what the market was then compared to now (which is a useless comparison) the fact is that people bought computers for the home and used them, whether it was for games or not. And guess what? I'd guess that the same percentage of people who buy computers for their home today as did in the 1980s do so for playing games. > To me some inventions were designed as solutions for problems (the light > bulb) while others are solutions in search of a problem ( early PC's). It is > obvious that the people driving the PC market today didn't have a clue what > the market today would look like 20+ years ago. That's just plain wrong. It was obvious from the moment the Altair 8800 hit the pages of Popular Electronics that personal computers were going to be a huge thing. The problem is that the big companies were stuck in their bigness and just didn't get it. Hundreds of companies sprung up in the first years of the microcomputer revolution, all trying to cash in on the craze. These computers were primarily sold to businesses after the inital hobbyist boom, but home users steadily increased over the years and continue to increase to this day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From blairrya at msu.edu Tue Sep 21 19:26:34 2004 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan M. Blair) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage In-Reply-To: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20040921202634.037f12d1@arrakis> On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:21:32 -0400 Dennis Boone wrote: > There was an HP3000/922 at MSU Salvage today, with what looked like > a disk cabinet (similar size and shape to the processor cabinet) > and some cables. No idea whether any of it works. No apparent > software or manuals. After having picked up this machine, disassembled, cleaned, moved 3 floors, reassembled, and turned on, the computer and disks all appear to work fine. I've been able to log in as MANAGER.SYS and poke around, though it appears to have been cleaned off fairly well. Anyone happen to have pointers to (or the real thing) documentation for this machine, and/or install media images so I can get this beast back running at full steam again? From what I can tell, it has a broken install of MPE/iX 6.0 or so. I'm pretty sure that DDS or CD images would work for this, as it has SE-SCSI and I've read that it will happily boot devices attached there. Hopefully some pictures as soon as I can borrow a digital camera. Ryan Blair From thompson at new.rr.com Tue Sep 21 19:47:37 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage In-Reply-To: <20040921202634.037f12d1@arrakis> References: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20040921202634.037f12d1@arrakis> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Ryan M. Blair wrote: > have pointers to (or the real thing) documentation for this machine, > and/or install media images so I can get this beast back running > at full steam again? From what I can tell, it has a broken install of > MPE/iX 6.0 or so. I'm pretty sure that DDS or CD images would work for > this, as it has SE-SCSI and I've read that it will happily boot devices > attached there. Hopefully some pictures as soon as I can borrow a > digital camera. My understanding is that install images are heavily customized per machine at the secret HP MPE bunker, although someone will surely correct me if wrong. A CSLT would be the best install image, but you obviously don't have one. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 19:57:37 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: Message-ID: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: Re: Snopes on Ken Olsen > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > If you look back in the 70's exactly what would the average person need an > > expensive Apple II or equivalent machine at home for? The only reason the > > Have you ever heard of a thing called video games? Video games came out after thousands upon thousands of machines were sold and people wanted something to do on them after the initial novelty wore off. Did the advertisements for the first computers show people playing games on them, or were they hyping the office apps? I wouldn't call the Atari 2600's from the 1970's a computer. > > > Apple II took of was because of VisiCalc (spreadsheet) and what that > > software offered to businesses. If you look at what most computer users do > > with their machines today (email, www, online shopping, eBay, news, games, > > quicken, etc) none of this existed in the 70's and 80's. The prices for > > machines back then also dwarfed what they cost now (rich tech toy compared > > to a commodity today). > > This is silly and specious. There were PLENTY of uses for a computer in > the home back in the 1970s: word processing is just one obvious > application. You are over-looking the thousands of unique uses people > found for computers at a personal level. > People didn't program word processors, others did and then sold those packages. Just about everyone I knew had a typewriter in the 70's and not a home computer. It wasnt untill the C64 in the 80's along with Atari 800s, Sinclair and other 8 bit machines that personal computers were sold in the millions and had enough memory and storage to be usefull word processors. > > The content, pricepoint, and standardization needed for the PC to become > > what it is today was not around in the 70's and most of the 80's. Having a > > That may be, but it didn't stop millions of computers being sold to home > users throughout the 1980s. Regardless of what the market was then > compared to now (which is a useless comparison) the fact is that people > bought computers for the home and used them, whether it was for games or > not. And guess what? I'd guess that the same percentage of people who > buy computers for their home today as did in the 1980s do so for playing > games. > Why is that a useless comparison (80's to today)? The average user changes alot from the kid who got a computer for gaming and some school papers to now where the whole family (grandparents also) uses one for work, games, multimedia, and communication. I was just trying to show how things evolved beyond what somebody in the 70's thaught the personal computer would be. > > To me some inventions were designed as solutions for problems (the light > > bulb) while others are solutions in search of a problem ( early PC's). It is > > obvious that the people driving the PC market today didn't have a clue what > > the market today would look like 20+ years ago. > > That's just plain wrong. It was obvious from the moment the Altair 8800 > hit the pages of Popular Electronics that personal computers were going to > be a huge thing. The problem is that the big companies were stuck in > their bigness and just didn't get it. Hundreds of companies sprung up in > the first years of the microcomputer revolution, all trying to cash in on > the craze. These computers were primarily sold to businesses after the > inital hobbyist boom, but home users steadily increased over the years and > continue to increase to this day. > The user base has steadily increased because of the software makers and their ability to come up with new uses for the home computer, along with pricing and technology that makes the equipment more powerful and cheaper at the same time. Was it obvious to IBM that their first PC would sell in the millions? Even if some people had an idea the personal computer would be a hit I don't think they ever dreamed of what they would look like in the later 20th century. > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 21 20:12:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: dupes? In-Reply-To: <005b01c4a00a$2b2c30d0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> References: <005b01c4a00a$2b2c30d0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: <4150D176.3040408@mdrconsult.com> charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > Stupid question, but is any1 else getting dupe emails from a couple of > days ago?? No, but only because I didn't get them then. Doc From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 21 20:28:18 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095816497.3765.702.camel@fiche.wps.com> Yeah, this is silly. Ken Olsen was a great guy, but he was as human as any of us, and made mistakes. He probably yelled at his dog too. Clearly, DEC missed the boat. I can personally attest to the TOTAL CRAP JOB they did with the Rainbow. (I can't believe I'm making this capitalist argument, I hate its results :-) but it wasn't his place to "predict" the use of computers in the home, but to CREATE it, and DEC had as good a chances as any, though historically the entrenched make poor pioneers (but then there's IBM, so much for consistency). On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 17:21, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > If you look back in the 70's exactly what would the average person need an > > expensive Apple II or equivalent machine at home for? The only reason the > > Have you ever heard of a thing called video games? > > > Apple II took of was because of VisiCalc (spreadsheet) and what that > > software offered to businesses. If you look at what most computer users do > > with their machines today (email, www, online shopping, eBay, news, games, > > quicken, etc) none of this existed in the 70's and 80's. The prices for > > machines back then also dwarfed what they cost now (rich tech toy compared > > to a commodity today). > > This is silly and specious. There were PLENTY of uses for a computer in > the home back in the 1970s: word processing is just one obvious > application. You are over-looking the thousands of unique uses people > found for computers at a personal level. > > > The content, pricepoint, and standardization needed for the PC to become > > what it is today was not around in the 70's and most of the 80's. Having a > > That may be, but it didn't stop millions of computers being sold to home > users throughout the 1980s. Regardless of what the market was then > compared to now (which is a useless comparison) the fact is that people > bought computers for the home and used them, whether it was for games or > not. And guess what? I'd guess that the same percentage of people who > buy computers for their home today as did in the 1980s do so for playing > games. > > > To me some inventions were designed as solutions for problems (the light > > bulb) while others are solutions in search of a problem ( early PC's). It is > > obvious that the people driving the PC market today didn't have a clue what > > the market today would look like 20+ years ago. > > That's just plain wrong. It was obvious from the moment the Altair 8800 > hit the pages of Popular Electronics that personal computers were going to > be a huge thing. The problem is that the big companies were stuck in > their bigness and just didn't get it. Hundreds of companies sprung up in > the first years of the microcomputer revolution, all trying to cash in on > the craze. These computers were primarily sold to businesses after the > inital hobbyist boom, but home users steadily increased over the years and > continue to increase to this day. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 20:29:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095808358.3765.670.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 08:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > This service managed to survive the dot-bomb: > > > > http://www.xdrive.com/ > > > > It creates a drive letter on your system that is symbolically linked to > > some storage space sitting on their servers. > > A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a > remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS. I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I think the $9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap bastard like me. I'm not sure how secure Samba is but it would be relatively straight-forward to setup something like this on a Linux server. A quick web search indicates the latest versions of Samba have security features. > I wonder (only academically) how they handle privacy, access by > authorities, etc. For data integrity, I assume they at least run RAID5 > and hopefully multiply geographically diverse data centers (but I would > ask not assume if I were to use them -- and get it in writing :-) Yeah, I would wonder the same. And if they had any agreement with law enforcement that would be a complete deal killer for me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 21 20:46:20 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> References: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >Video games came out after thousands upon thousands of machines were sold >and people wanted something to do on them after the initial novelty wore >off. Did the advertisements for the first computers show people playing >games on them, or were they hyping the office apps? I wouldn't call the >Atari 2600's from the 1970's a computer. Most of the early home computers were sold for games. Most of the software available was games. Most of the early magazines talked about programming, and guess what they were programming, games! Please note, I'm basically ignoring the S-100 bus systems. But even on those, games were a big thing. As for the IBM PC and clones, initially those were more of a office type system, rather than a home computer. > > This is silly and specious. There were PLENTY of uses for a computer in > > the home back in the 1970s: word processing is just one obvious > > application. You are over-looking the thousands of unique uses people > > found for computers at a personal level. > >People didn't program word processors, others did and then sold those >packages. Just about everyone I knew had a typewriter in the 70's and not a >home computer. It wasnt untill the C64 in the 80's along with Atari 800s, >Sinclair and other 8 bit machines that personal computers were sold in the >millions and had enough memory and storage to be usefull word processors. Interesting, people didn't program word processors? Strange, I'm sure I'm not the only one on this list that wrote a simple word processing type app for their first computer. As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find that a typewriter is still useful, even now. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 19:31:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <200409191727.i8JHRjJX011747@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Sep 19, 4 01:27:54 pm Message-ID: [HP Printer fuser] > These parts are available, but expect to pay $30 to $50 each for a new lamp > and tube. The job is not that difficult if you know what you are doing, but > substantially more difficult if you don't (big surprise, right?). I don;t know what I'm doing, but I've stripped and rebuilt the fusers for the CX and SX engines. The most important thing to remember is that the 'heater' is a quartz-halogen lamp, and you must not touch the 'glass' with your fingners. The CX one is difficult to handle (it's possible to hld it -- just -- by the ceramic end cap), the SX one can be handled by the wires. There are quite a few parts in the fuser, but I've never had a problem with something like that. > I have an actual factory service manual for the Laserjet II, I may scan it > and make it into a PDF for the classic computer documentation effort. > However, unlike Imsai, Altair, etc., HP is very much still in business and > may take legal action if their copyrighted manuals are put on the web or HP have been friendly about allowing the manuals (user and service) for their discontinued _calculator_ products to be distributed (I don't think they've given blanket permission, but there are web sites that have got official permision to do this). I don't know about printers, though. Bear in mind that some of the copyright on that manual may actually be owned by Canon. > Just a note on economic viability, you can buy entire working HP 4 printers > -- HP 4 Plus, the 12ppm version -- for well under $50, so putting in a $60 > repair on a vastly inferior Laserjet II is of questionable economic > viability. Hey, this is classiccimp :-). What's economic viability got to do with it? More seriously, I don;t think there was ever an 4-series with the VDO (direct 'video' interface). The CX-VDO exists, of course (the VDO interface is the 'native' interface to the DC controller in that printer), there's an SX-VDO (with an interface card in place of the formatter) and there's a VDO interface card that fits in the expansion slot of an LJ2. If you have one of the many classic computers that uses a VDO interface then yuu'll want to keep an SX-VDO running (the CX toner cartridges are getting very hard to find now). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 19:38:19 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Salvaging HP LaserJet Series II In-Reply-To: from "Seth Lewin" at Sep 19, 4 03:49:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 Jim Isbell wrote: > > > Subject: Salvaging HP Laser Jet series II > > > I saved anything that had a wire connected to it and put all the > > plastic, sheet metal and gear trains into the trash on the theory that > > the gear trains looked tough enough to not be a failure point. > > Those machines have Canon engines that are really long-lived; I have an > Apple LaserWriter Iig (originally a Iint) which has the same mechanism and > it's been running (admittedly in light use lately) since October 1989. I > wonder if anyone on the list has any kind of teardown instructions or Sure, they come apart from the top down. Take off the casing first (there are screws rounf the outside, a bracket at the left end of the fuser, etc). Unplug the cable going to the LED panel (Apple version). Take off the front frame round the paper tray hole (6 screws IIRC), and the gear covers (1 screw each). Take out the fuser (I told you how to do this last week). Tke out the DC power supply (Unplug the motor cable, 3 screws, pull it up and out), the AC block (a ferw screws, pull it up and out) and the EHT PSU (4 screwsm, 2 on the PSU, 2 on the connector block). Take out the scanner -- undo the screw on top, free the pickup fibre-optic cable, flip open the flap and unplug the 2 electrical cables under it, then removet the 4 corner screws and lift t out, Don;t lose the shims under it. Take out the pickup roller (1 screw on each bearing). Take out the motor and primary drive (a few screws). I don;t normally have to go any further, but IIRC all the remaining screws are obvious. > lubrication instructions for these machines - mine sounds as if it can use a > greasing when it's feeding paper - not a screeching sound but is sounds as > if something's running dry in there. It's never been taken apart and Apple's > hardbound book on the LW II doesn't give this kind of information. I'd hate > to slop the wrong lube in the wrong place and damage this old workhorse as > it enters its 16th year of service. There are 4 lubricants I use : (Electrolube) Special Plastic Grease on the plastic bearings on things like the pickup roller. You want something that's sfae on plastics here. High melting point grease on the gear trains Graphite grease on the earthing brush in the fuser. Light machine oil on the sintered bearings in the gears and in the fan units. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 20:14:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock In-Reply-To: <16720.30031.952616.382830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 21, 4 02:39:11 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "FaLLnAnGeL" == FaLLnAnGeL writes: > > FaLLnAnGeL> Hi, My dad has one of those self winding clocks, and i > FaLLnAnGeL> was wondering if you could point me in the direction of > FaLLnAnGeL> finding a wiring diagram for it? thanks for your time > > Self-winding? Do you mean an electrically powered pendulum clock? It might also be a conventional mechanical clock, normally spring-driven, with a soldenoid and switch to wind it when the spring runs down (smaller clocks of this type were fitted to UK cars in the 1960s, I've had a few across my bench. They used a tension spring (not a flat spiral spring like most mainsprings) and rewound every couple of minutes or so). > That could be a Synchronome or something analogous. > > Not much to it. It's basically a switch connected to a solenoid If it is a syncronome, there are likely to be contacts for slave dials too > If it's a Synchronome, a beautiful reference (if you can find it, I > believe it's out of print) "Electrical Timekeeping" by Frank > Hope-Jones, the inventor of that technology. > That book is moderately hard to find (I have) it, there's also 'Electric Clocks' by the same author that I've not found yet. Other books including 'Amateur Telescope Making' (!) and a book on electric clocks in the current Camden book lists give some information on making Synchronome clocks, but assume you will buy the castings from the Synchronome company (who are long gone, alas). For the UK people here, Hope-Jones was the originator of the time signal 'pips' on BBC radio... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 19:49:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921033712.04b6b9d8@pc> from "John Foust" at Sep 21, 4 03:41:34 am Message-ID: > >I don't invest in any of that fancy new-fangled equipment. I use whatever > >I already have or what's given to me. That usually means stuff that's 3-7 > >generations behind whatever is current today. > > But USB sticks are getting cheap enough that they've become > promotional gimmick give-aways. I've never bought one, but now This implies you have a machine with an Unusable Serial Botch port!. It's not Universal, in that none of the 200+ computers I have here have USB ports or can have USB ports. It is serial. It's not a bus, at least not in the hardware. It's got other 'features' I don't like too... I'll stick to RS232, thank you... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 19:53:59 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: <200409211340.i8LDe4J4012900@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Sep 21, 4 09:40:04 am Message-ID: > > > Paul Koning wrote: > > > >With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to anything > >that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a DX11 you could > >hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; > > wow - bus & tag? I've never seen a dx11. I assume VMS had support for > that Yes, bus and tag. Be warnded that the DX11 is 8 rows of flip-chip cards in a 12U high backplane + a PSU + a power interlock panel + a lights panel + a connecotr panel. In other words it takes up half a 6' rack at least (I have 2 of them, and the prints). I also believe it's a 'slave' device only. It'll sit on the IBM channel from your system/360 (or with a few mods a system/370), but I don't think you can use it to link up IBM peripherals to a PDP11. No idea what OSes supported it, but I've never heard of one on a VAX. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 21 20:26:43 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest In-Reply-To: <01d401c49e6e$f66e9550$7dc3033e@gamemachine> from "Charles Blackburn" at Sep 19, 4 06:08:25 pm Message-ID: > > you could in fact quite legally broadcast a teletext signal from a small > transmitter if you are capable of building one, you MUST be careful however Some of the better TV test generators now include a few teletext pages -- there was a review of one in this month's 'Television' magazine which costs a bit over 100 quit and which will output 4 teletext pages along with the normal 'test card' video image. It can't be that hard to make a teletext generator, actually. When I get my ACW working, and the Morley teletext decoder hooked up to it, I might have a go at making a generator. > to make sure that you get no spurious emissions and also dont use an aerial > but a coax feeder between the tx and the tuner. (IE link it up exactly as > you would a TV). I wonder if the stnadard video modulators would have enough video bandwidth for this. I know of at least one device which used such a modulator without an audio input, and generated the 6MHz sound intercarrier with a separate oscillator, mixed it with the video and fed it into the modulator. It worked. So you might get away with feeding in teletext data too. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 21 21:21:19 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: <414FEF8E.1040704@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. It seems that the last of the 1/2 inch tapes are finally coming out of service in the mainframe shops. I have been noticing less and less of the 3420s in the scrapyards, and pretty soon, they will be gone. One things I regret never acting on is a 3380/3880 DASD (that is hard disk in Big Blue) system - they were very abundant in the scrap yards five years ago, but now are basically not to be found. I am happy that my 3420 setup popped up in Manhattan not far from me. The whole deal worked out pretty well - they keep wanting me to come back and take stuff, for free! William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 21 21:23:45 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: computer flooring (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20040921164514.6F6843CFE@spies.com> Message-ID: > > this stuff is HARD to come by > > yup. But I think we will be seeing more and more of it. > Would suspect the other Big Iron people (Donzelli, Ross) may be interested > as well. My main concern right now is a warehouse. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 21 21:25:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: HP Printers Message-ID: <200409220225.TAA02941@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >[HP Printer fuser] > >> These parts are available, but expect to pay $30 to $50 each for a new lamp >> and tube. The job is not that difficult if you know what you are doing, but >> substantially more difficult if you don't (big surprise, right?). > >I don;t know what I'm doing, but I've stripped and rebuilt the fusers for >the CX and SX engines. The most important thing to remember is that the >'heater' is a quartz-halogen lamp, and you must not touch the 'glass' >with your fingners. The CX one is difficult to handle (it's possible to >hld it -- just -- by the ceramic end cap), the SX one can be handled by >the wires. > ---snip--- Hi I thought I'd mention that should you actually touch the quartz part, it is not throw away yet. You just need to clean the surface well. Rubbing alcohol works well at removing finger grease but I always like to follow with a good dry cleaning fluid like automotive "Brake Clean". What happens is that your finger grease will carbonize on the hot surface and cause a hot spot. This will stress the quartz tube and break it. Dwight From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 21 21:37:10 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409212237.11654.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Tuesday 21 September 2004 22:21, William Donzelli wrote: > > Two 3420 drives and 3803 controller, in Maine USA. > > It seems that the last of the 1/2 inch tapes are finally coming out of > service in the mainframe shops. I have been noticing less and less of > the 3420s in the scrapyards, and pretty soon, they will be gone. One > things I regret never acting on is a 3380/3880 DASD (that is hard disk > in Big Blue) system - they were very abundant in the scrap yards five > years ago, but now are basically not to be found. My former shop is scheduled to retire a bunch of 3390's at the end of this year. But they said that last year too and the conversion hasn't been going too well. > I am happy that my 3420 setup popped up in Manhattan not far from me. > The whole deal worked out pretty well - they keep wanting me to come > back and take stuff, for free! > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 21 22:05:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Video games came out after thousands upon thousands of machines were sold > and people wanted something to do on them after the initial novelty wore > off. Did the advertisements for the first computers show people playing > games on them, or were they hyping the office apps? I wouldn't call the > Atari 2600's from the 1970's a computer. >From the beginning, one of the driving forces for having a computer was to play games. A big reason for the techies and nerds was so they could do programming without being constrained by time limits. And what did they programs? GAMES! > > This is silly and specious. There were PLENTY of uses for a computer in > > the home back in the 1970s: word processing is just one obvious > > application. You are over-looking the thousands of unique uses people > > found for computers at a personal level. > > People didn't program word processors, others did and then sold those > packages. Just about everyone I knew had a typewriter in the 70's and not a > home computer. It wasnt untill the C64 in the 80's along with Atari 800s, > Sinclair and other 8 bit machines that personal computers were sold in the > millions and had enough memory and storage to be usefull word processors. The Apple ][ was doing all this by the late 1970s. So were many other computers on the market at the time. The user base was limited and the applications were certainly crude, especially compared to today's standards, but people did use these things in the home, and the trend was obviously towards more penetration into the home market for these sorts of applications. If we go back to the original argument by Ken Olsen, which is that there's no reason to have computers in the home, Ken was not only completely wrong, but disastrously wrong, as history has proven. > > That may be, but it didn't stop millions of computers being sold to home > > users throughout the 1980s. Regardless of what the market was then > > compared to now (which is a useless comparison) the fact is that people > > bought computers for the home and used them, whether it was for games or > > not. And guess what? I'd guess that the same percentage of people who > > buy computers for their home today as did in the 1980s do so for playing > > games. > > Why is that a useless comparison (80's to today)? The average user changes Because today the applications are obvious and evolved, and then there's the Internet. Back in the 1970s and early 1980s people bought computers for the home because they heard they could do all sorts of nifty things with them, and the kids could use them to play games. And people did. You were comparing the market in the late 1970s to the market of today and saying this is evidence that computers had no use in the home, which is just plain wrong. How many cars were sold in the late 1800s and how do those sales numbers compare to today? Furthermore, what does that say about how useful or useless cars were for individuals back then? > alot from the kid who got a computer for gaming and some school papers to > now where the whole family (grandparents also) uses one for work, games, > multimedia, and communication. I was just trying to show how things evolved > beyond what somebody in the 70's thaught the personal computer would be. But computers back then were also targeted at the whole family for pretty much all the applications that we use them for today. Look at any early Apple ad, for example, and you'll see every member of the family represented with an application mentioned for each one (from the obvious to the sexist, i.e. "Mom can save her recipes!"). > The user base has steadily increased because of the software makers and > their ability to come up with new uses for the home computer, along with > pricing and technology that makes the equipment more powerful and cheaper at > the same time. Was it obvious to IBM that their first PC would sell in the > millions? Even if some people had an idea the personal computer would be a > hit I don't think they ever dreamed of what they would look like in the > later 20th century. It was clearly not obvious to IBM that they would be selling in the millions, but it was clear that there was a market, which is all that mattered. As it were, they sold around 35,000 PC's by the end of 1981, five times their expectations. So by 1981, only four years after Ken made his comment, it became very obvious that computers had a huge future. But even before then, sales for personal computers were skyrocketing. IBM only came into the picture after it was obvious they were missing the boat. Ken was obviously, plainly, painfully, and as I said before, disastrously wrong. DEC is gone, Apple is not. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Sep 21 22:24:42 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <0409220324.AA08729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > A big reason for the techies and nerds was so they could do > programming without being constrained by time limits. And what did they > programs? GAMES! Well, to give just one data point, not me: when I first learned how to program at the age of 7, in PDP-11 assembly on my first home computer, Soviet BK0010, I did NOT write any games. My first program, although it was not on the BK0010 but on its successor, BK0011, was an operating system. So I guess I was destined from the very beginning to be an OS guy. (What am I doing now, 18 years later? Maintaining 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, an operating system. And it's for VAX, which is not that far away from PDP-11, my first instruction set.) MS From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 21 22:38:09 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:23 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: Message-ID: <001a01c4a055$946cd040$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:05 PM Subject: Re: Snopes on Ken Olsen > > Ken was obviously, plainly, painfully, and as I said before, disastrously > wrong. DEC is gone, Apple is not. > All I was trying to say that it was very hard for anybody in the 1970's to ever dream about every houshold having at least one if not multiple computers 20+ years later, or those machines being used by all the age groups and not just tech geeks. Hell how many people years later thaught IBM would be a niche player in the market they dominated when they introduced the IBM XT? At least DEC was going great until the 90's rolled around, they rode the market for longer then Apple ever did. > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 21 23:05:17 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: References: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040922040517.GB9482@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 08:05:51PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > If we go back to the original argument by Ken Olsen, which is that there's > no reason to have computers in the home, Ken was not only completely > wrong, but disastrously wrong, as history has proven. There's a story that Dave Ahl tried to convince DEC management (possibly Ken Olsen himself) that it would be possible to package up an inexpensive PDP-8/a rig that would easily fit in the trunk of a car, and would be useable as a "home computer". It would have competed favorable with IMSAIs, etc, on price, and would have blown them away in terms of product quality. The answer to Dave's proposition was a variant of Ken's famous quote. Even a 4K PDP-8 can run some interesting stuff. Of course in those days, whether it was an IMSAI or a PDP-8, the TTY was an expensive peripheral. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2004 04:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -93.8 F (-69.9 C) Windchill -129.9 F (-90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 097 Barometer 670.4 mb (10989. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jimmydevice at verizon.net Wed Sep 22 00:58:51 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <0409211919.AA07636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409211919.AA07636@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4151149B.10506@verizon.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: >John Foust wrote: > > > >>"In 1977, Ken Olsen, the founder and CEO of Digital Equipment >>Corporation, said, "There is no reason for any individual to >>have a computer in his home." >> >> > >2004 now and I still agree with that 100%. > >MS > > > There is no reason to own almost anything. A house, live in an apartment or under an overpass or in a cave. A car, Ride public transportation, bike or walk, Tv? Books and newspapers. Lights? Remember fire? Food? get a stick and start digging.. A computer? I think I'm dome. Jim Davis. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 22 01:10:55 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <0409220610.AA08952@ivan.Harhan.ORG> JimD wrote: > There is no reason to own almost anything. A house, live in an apartment > or under an > overpass or in a cave. I live in an apartment. Being in the bottommost socioeconomic spectrum (a Marxist lumpen-proletarian with nothing to lose but my chains), I will never own a house. > A car, Ride public transportation, bike or walk, I vehemently hate cars and will never own one. I use and very strongly support public transportation, and I walk. > Tv? Books > and newspapers. I've been living without a TV since 2000 and I'm very happy without that brainwashing machine. And yes, I like to read. MS From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 01:22:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <001a01c4a055$946cd040$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > All I was trying to say that it was very hard for anybody in the 1970's to > ever dream about every houshold having at least one if not multiple > computers 20+ years later, or those machines being used by all the age > groups and not just tech geeks. I would disagree. Maybe it was hard for Ken Olsen to dream about this, but certainly not Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Guess who got it right? > Hell how many people years later thaught IBM would be a niche player in the > market they dominated when they introduced the IBM XT? Apple did. Apple, at least in their advertising, promoted a cavalier attitude towards IBM's entry into the personal computer market. They thought IBM wouldn't gain traction. Other companies of the era felt similarly. They were wrong of course. > At least DEC was going great until the 90's rolled around, they rode the > market for longer then Apple ever did. DEC is gone. Apple is not. Unless you're certain of the demise of Apple in less than 12 years, this statement is not true. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 01:27:17 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <0409220324.AA08729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409220324.AA08729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1095834437.7755.4.camel@fiche.wps.com> > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > A big reason for the techies and nerds was so they could do > > programming without being constrained by time limits. And what did they > > programs? GAMES! On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 20:24, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Well, to give just one data point, not me: when I first learned how to > program at the age of 7, in PDP-11 assembly on my first home computer, > Soviet BK0010, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----> COOL! :-) > I did NOT write any games. My first program, although > it was not on the BK0010 but on its successor, BK0011, was an operating > system. Me too. I eventually did get a TDL/Xitan FORTRAN version of ADVENTURE running (CP/M 2.2 and PDOS), but I've never played any other computer games I can recall (OK the old numeric TREK typed into DG Nova 1200 BASIC). It was all hardware, device drivers, tape storage, and operating systems for me too. Games on computer bore me to tears to this day. I can't imagine a more collosal waste of time! Obviously, an entire *world* of people today think otherwise, more power to 'em! From joe at barrera.org Tue Sep 21 22:22:56 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: References: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find that > a typewriter is still useful, even now. Really?! For what? (Besides doing a better job of faking Bush memos...) - Joe From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 01:35:34 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Training Manual Message-ID: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> Scanning is mostly done, and it's indexed and on the web at http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/LGP-21-Maintenance-Training-Manual/index.html I scanned only the first 50 or so A-sized pages, but all the B-sized (large) schematics etc are there. It's missing the memory alignment info, which are in the later pages. Now that I got the new perl script done (it's not that big a deal, it was simply a matter of time to complete it) I'll finish scanning probably this week. PS: to John Foust (I think it was) that politely reminded me some time ago of the obvious fact that JPEGs are lossy. I did everything in TIFF format, but my browser (konqueror) would not load TIFF images! Oddly, when I hovered the mouse over an image link, it would say on the status line "/path/etc/foo.tiff (X bytes, TIFF format)" but not display it. So I had to convert to JPEG, sigh. I have the TIFFs should I stumble upon a solution. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 22 01:42:58 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <0409220642.AA09007@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Tom Jennings wrote: > > Soviet BK0010, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----> COOL! :-) Are you familiar with it? I never thought its very existence was known anywhere outside the former USSR! I mean it wasn't secret or anything, just something I can't imagine anyone else knowing about (USSR wasn't exactly a computer exporter :-). Well, OK, there was some Eastern Bloc computer technology that was significant enough to be at least known in the West (Robotron for example), but I can't imagine something as little as BK0010 being known anywhere in the West. Its CPU chip, K1801VM1, was really cool though: it was a complete single-chip implementation of an LSI-11 CPU with Q-bus on its pins. DEC never had that. MS From jimmydevice at verizon.net Wed Sep 22 01:46:25 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <0409220610.AA08952@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409220610.AA08952@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <41511FC1.9090500@verizon.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: >JimD wrote: > > > >>There is no reason to own almost anything. A house, live in an apartment >>or under an >>overpass or in a cave. >> >> > >I live in an apartment. Being in the bottommost socioeconomic spectrum >(a Marxist lumpen-proletarian with nothing to lose but my chains), I >will never own a house. > > > >>A car, Ride public transportation, bike or walk, >> >> > >I vehemently hate cars and will never own one. I use and very strongly >support public transportation, and I walk. > > > >>Tv? Books >>and newspapers. >> >> > >I've been living without a TV since 2000 and I'm very happy without >that brainwashing machine. And yes, I like to read. > >MS > > > What about the stick? do you achoo ( nat semi joke ) hunting and gathering? Jim Davis From charlesb at otcgaming.net Wed Sep 22 03:08:23 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest References: Message-ID: <003101c4a07b$d39e3940$7dc3033e@gamemachine> You gotta have the crappy music to go along with the teletext pages :D ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 2:26 AM Subject: Re: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest > I wonder if the stnadard video modulators would have enough video > bandwidth for this. I know of at least one device which used such a > modulator without an audio input, and generated the 6MHz sound > intercarrier with a separate oscillator, mixed it with the video and fed > it into the modulator. It worked. So you might get away with feeding in > teletext data too. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.766 / Virus Database: 513 - Release Date: 18/09/2004 From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 22 07:38:53 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest In-Reply-To: References: <01d401c49e6e$f66e9550$7dc3033e@gamemachine> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040922132554.05ad0b88@pop.freeserve.net> At 02:26 22/09/2004, Tony Duell wrote: >I wonder if the stnadard video modulators would have enough video >bandwidth for this. I know of at least one device which used such a >modulator without an audio input, and generated the 6MHz sound >intercarrier with a separate oscillator, mixed it with the video and fed >it into the modulator. It worked. So you might get away with feeding in >teletext data too. Some years back, (about '89) I tried generating teletext signals with a BBC micro itself - fiddled the video generation registers so that the displayable portion of the screen actually started up in the VBI, and use the bit-mapped graphics to create the relevant bit-stream on the right lines. My reference on this was a library book "Teletext and Viewdata" (Steve A Money, Newnes Technical books. I have the 1981 edition here...) It goes into great detail on how the original teletext spec works, timings, block diagrams and snippets of example schematics, etc. I never actually got it working much further than getting the TV to recognise that there was /something/ there, as the only teletext TV we had was at the other end of the house from the computer, and what with stringing the wire up, and the constant walking backwards and forwards to see if it saw anything, I got quickly tired. I still believe it should be quite possible to achieve it on that hardware though. Of course, modern teletext has a lot more extra features now, but I am sure most TVs can cope with an "original" specification signal if given it; different countries use different implementations, after all, and most TVs these days are universal. Rob. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 07:55:22 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> This implies you have a machine with an Unusable Serial >>> Botch port!. It's not Universal, in that none of the 200+ >>> computers I have here have USB ports or can have USB ports. >>> It is serial. It's not a bus, at least not in the hardware. >>> >>> It's got other 'features' I don't like too... I'll stick to >>> RS232, thank you... >>> While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all do-all, like some proponents, I do not think is a is *Botch* either. Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other platforms as well [I integrated a USB sub-system with and embedded ARM-7 system last year], so I am confused about your stantement that not of the computers you have *CAN* have usb ports. I also don't understand youstatement that it is not a bus..... From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 08:19:20 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <1095816497.3765.702.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16721.31704.25000.537767@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> Yeah, this is silly. Ken Olsen was a great guy, but he was as Tom> human as any of us, and made mistakes. He probably yelled at his Tom> dog too. Clearly, DEC missed the boat. I can personally attest Tom> to the TOTAL CRAP JOB they did with the Rainbow. Tom> (I can't believe I'm making this capitalist argument, I hate its Tom> results :-) but it wasn't his place to "predict" the use of Tom> computers in the home, but to CREATE it, and DEC had as good a Tom> chances as any, though historically the entrenched make poor Tom> pioneers (but then there's IBM, so much for consistency). The underlying problem is that Ken had no clue about marketing, and even less about sales. DEC was successful for so long in large part because the products were so good they "sold themselves", and a "processor handbook" was all the marketing you needed. When that stopped being true, so did DEC. You'd find good marketing people from time to time at DEC, but good marketing as a high priority company activity just didn't exist. I didn't learn just how much you can get from good marketing until years after I left DEC. Similarly, consider the cluelessness of a CEO who absolutely refuses to consider commissions for salespeople. A comparatively smaller problems is that Ken couldn't stop himself from fiddling with engineering details even after DEC became a 50,000 person company. There are notorious examples where he personally redesigned products that were just weeks from release, causing large scale upheaval that delayed things for months (and, clearly, to no useful purpose). Consider the MMJ jack... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 08:24:33 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock References: <16720.30031.952616.382830@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16721.32017.349000.854996@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> >>>>> "FaLLnAnGeL" == FaLLnAnGeL writes: >> FaLLnAnGeL> Hi, My dad has one of those self winding clocks, and i FaLLnAnGeL> was wondering if you could point me in the direction of FaLLnAnGeL> finding a wiring diagram for it? thanks for your time >> Self-winding? Do you mean an electrically powered pendulum >> clock? Tony> It might also be a conventional mechanical clock, normally Tony> spring-driven, with a soldenoid and switch to wind it when the Tony> spring runs down (smaller clocks of this type were fitted to UK Tony> cars in the 1960s, I've had a few across my bench. They used a Tony> tension spring (not a flat spiral spring like most mainsprings) Tony> and rewound every couple of minutes or so). >> That could be a Synchronome or something analogous. >> >> Not much to it. It's basically a switch connected to a solenoid Tony> If it is a syncronome, there are likely to be contacts for Tony> slave dials too No, those are the same contacts. A synchronome has the slave dials wired in series with the master clock contact and solenoid and the battery. That's actually a key part of the system, allowing things to keep going even if the load varies a lot, or the battery is pretty run down. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 08:25:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Big IBM vacuum-column tapes drives on Ebay References: <200409211340.i8LDe4J4012900@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <16721.32084.171000.202611@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> >> >> Paul Koning wrote: >> > >> >With the controller included, it would presumably hook up to >> anything >that knows an IBM channel interface. So if you have a >> DX11 you could >hook it up to your Unibus PDP11; >> >> wow - bus & tag? I've never seen a dx11. I assume VMS had >> support for that Tony> Yes, bus and tag. Be warnded that the DX11 is 8 rows of Tony> flip-chip cards in a 12U high backplane + a PSU + a power Tony> interlock panel + a lights panel + a connecotr panel. In other Tony> words it takes up half a 6' rack at least (I have 2 of them, Tony> and the prints). Tony> I also believe it's a 'slave' device only. It'll sit on the IBM Tony> channel from your system/360 (or with a few mods a system/370), Tony> but I don't think you can use it to link up IBM peripherals to Tony> a PDP11. Tony> No idea what OSes supported it, but I've never heard of one on Tony> a VAX. Then again, strange things sometimes happened... consider the DECtape (real DECtape, not TU58) support that magically appeared in VMS at some point. It even supported overlapped seek, just like TOPS-10. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 08:45:36 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Training Manual References: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16721.33280.521000.288638@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> Scanning is mostly done, and it's indexed and on the web at Tom> http://wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/LGP-21-Maintenance-Training-Manual/index.html Tom> I scanned only the first 50 or so A-sized pages, but all the Tom> B-sized (large) schematics etc are there. Tom> It's missing the memory alignment info, which are in the later Tom> pages. Now that I got the new perl script done (it's not that Tom> big a deal, it was simply a matter of time to complete it) I'll Tom> finish scanning probably this week. Tom> PS: to John Foust (I think it was) that politely reminded me Tom> some time ago of the obvious fact that JPEGs are lossy. I did Tom> everything in TIFF format, but my browser (konqueror) would not Tom> load TIFF images! Oddly, when I hovered the mouse over an image Tom> link, it would say on the status line "/path/etc/foo.tiff (X Tom> bytes, TIFF format)" but not display it. So I had to convert to Tom> JPEG, sigh. I have the TIFFs should I stumble upon a solution. Try PNG, or even GIF. Either handles line graphics just fine. JPG is for photos only and will clobber the detail on line art. Don't feel too bad, there are many supposed professionals who get this wrong. Just look at the many websites out there that have JPG logos. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 08:47:31 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <0409220642.AA09007@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <16721.33395.708000.220942@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Tom Jennings wrote: >> > Soviet BK0010, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----> COOL! :-) Michael> Are you familiar with it? I never thought its very Michael> existence was known anywhere outside the former USSR! I Michael> mean it wasn't secret or anything, just something I can't Michael> imagine anyone else knowing about (USSR wasn't exactly a Michael> computer exporter :-). Well, OK, there was some Eastern Michael> Bloc computer technology that was significant enough to be Michael> at least known in the West (Robotron for example), but I Michael> can't imagine something as little as BK0010 being known Michael> anywhere in the West. I have somewhere a copy of an marketing flyer from a company in Vilnius (forgot the name) that was building VAX clones. It's mostly in Lithuanian and Russian, with summaries in German and English. I think I got that when that company sent some people to DEC to try to get DEC to buy some of their stuff, or outsource work to them, or something along those lines. DEC looked at them and decided that doing business with the russian mafia was not a good plan... paul From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Sep 22 09:03:39 2004 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <16721.33395.708000.220942@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409221404.KAA26353@smtp.9netave.com> That brought to mind the story of the Cyrillic message included on the CVax chip: Vax -- when you care enough to steal the very best http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:48 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Snopes on Ken Olsen >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Tom Jennings wrote: >> > Soviet BK0010, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----> COOL! :-) Michael> Are you familiar with it? I never thought its very Michael> existence was known anywhere outside the former USSR! I Michael> mean it wasn't secret or anything, just something I can't Michael> imagine anyone else knowing about (USSR wasn't exactly a Michael> computer exporter :-). Well, OK, there was some Eastern Michael> Bloc computer technology that was significant enough to be Michael> at least known in the West (Robotron for example), but I Michael> can't imagine something as little as BK0010 being known Michael> anywhere in the West. I have somewhere a copy of an marketing flyer from a company in Vilnius (forgot the name) that was building VAX clones. It's mostly in Lithuanian and Russian, with summaries in German and English. I think I got that when that company sent some people to DEC to try to get DEC to buy some of their stuff, or outsource work to them, or something along those lines. DEC looked at them and decided that doing business with the russian mafia was not a good plan... paul From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Sep 22 09:25:13 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Site Privacy issues References: <414A9935.9050704@gjcp.net> <414DDE25.6090902@gjcp.net><414DE033.8030101@cableone.net> <414E18C8.BECE11F9@compsys.to> <414E6441.8000307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <002e01c4a0b0$058f9280$0200a8c0@geoff> Use mailwasher to bounce all the spam and it soon reduces to a useable level - makes them think your email address is redundant. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:01 AM Subject: Re: Site Privacy issues > Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > I am VERY interested. But I run Windows 98 SE in order > > to run the E11 PDP-11 emulator. Will SpyHunter and/or > > WindowWasher run under Windows 98 SE? If so, is > > there a site that I can use to download these 2 programs > > and the documentation needed to understand how to use them? > > > > As has been said before, take a good look at Mozilla Firefox. It's > largely immune to all the scumware that attacks IE (dodgy ActiveX > controls, start page hijacking, blocks popups). Everyone I've > recommended it to has given up on IE except for sites that *must* use IE > - hopefully before long the worse offenders (are you listening, > Halifax/Bank of Scotland and Scottish Power?) get a small amount of clue > and fix their websites. > > Might be worth replacing Outlook Express with Mozilla Thunderbird too, > if you use it. Its builtin spam filtering has made my girlfriend's > parents email usable again. Well worth the time to download. > > Gordon. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 22 09:36:37 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409220736370030.2430652E@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 19-Sep-04 at 15:26 Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I told ya so! > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_hi_te/floppy_d >ath_4 > >Mon Sep 6, 5:17 PM ET > >By MARK NIESSE, Associated Press Writer > >ATLANTA - Long the most common way to store letters, homework and other >computer files, the floppy disk is going the way of the horse upon the >arrival of the car: it'll hang around but never hold the same relevance >in everyday life. Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've encountered to date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive). And, while some will boot from the CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers would have us believe! Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level diagnostics, and getting installations started for open-source OS's such as the BSD family. They will remain in that position until (1), someone comes up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2), Data I/O manages to convert the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded) by something other than floppies. Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a lonnnnnng time to come, methinks. Keep the peace(es). > >And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology >must go on. > >Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer >makers say. > >Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in >spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies >are available on request for $10 to $20 extra. > >"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell >spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a >floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive." > >A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't >have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the >benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops >don't come with a floppy. > >More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy, >said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard. > >"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she >said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready >to make that move." > >Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so >comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers >outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South. > >At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary >equipment, but no floppy. > >"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the >last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta >said. > >But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their >floppies go. > >"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a >pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway. > >"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat >Blaisdell. > >The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact >discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and >are less likely to break. > >Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used >to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around. > >"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and >computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old >8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never >label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in >and looked." > >In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long. > >They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word >processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of >700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and >256 megabytes. > >And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used >to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple >Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its >Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s. > >Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop >including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model >in 1998. > >"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow demise," >said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology >consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were >screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted." > >It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs. >Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the >DVD would be obsolete within a decade. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 22 10:00:24 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> >Ron Hudson wrote: > I am currently running simh on both my Macintosh iBook and a > no name clone PC running Linux (redhat 7.0). The Linux box has > the added ability of being available for telnet (thanks Ashley C.) > > Is Ersatz-11 better than simh? Jerome Fine replies: E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby version runs under either Windows or Linux. VT100 emulation is built into E11, unlike SIMH which briefly (V9-11) also included VT100 that mostly worked, but was mainly missing the GOLD key! Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows 98 SE is able to provide this feature. In addition, I use the "Full" (Commercial) version of E11 which allows direct access to raw SCSI drives, although this latter feature is no longer needed now that I can "see" the first 64 blocks of a CD media on the DVD drive that I use. Thus E11 can: MOUNT DU0: CDROMi: (i: is the drive letter) BOOT DU0: This assumes, of course, that the first 64 blocks of the CD can be read. If not, it is always possible to use the image file of the CD (ISO file is available to burn the CD) and MOUNT the ISO file under E11 as a file on the hard disk. For 13 versions of RT-11 from V01-15 to V05.03: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ the file is RT11DV10.ISO.zip which expands to 4 RT-11 partitions. I don't know which of the other Windows operating system flavours will also work to some extent, but I suspect that most will have a few problems. If you try RT-11 under the Linux box, I would VERY much appreciate some feedback!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 22 10:38:22 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <001a01c4a055$946cd040$0500fea9@game> References: <001a01c4a055$946cd040$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >Hell how many people years later thaught IBM would be a niche player in the >market they dominated when they introduced the IBM XT? At least DEC was >going great until the 90's rolled around, they rode the market for longer >then Apple ever did. DEC made one big mistake, getting an SOB in as CEO that looted the company and sold off bits till he was able to sell the company. As for IBM being a niche player in the PC market, not from where I'm sitting. For a long time they were, but as far as I can tell, they're back strong. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 10:49:59 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> Message-ID: <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Ron Hudson wrote: I am currently running simh on both my Macintosh >> iBook and a no name clone PC running Linux (redhat 7.0). The Linux >> box has the added ability of being available for telnet (thanks >> Ashley C.) >> >> Is Ersatz-11 better than simh? Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: Jerome> E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby Jerome> version runs under either Windows or Linux. VT100 emulation Jerome> is built into E11, unlike SIMH which briefly (V9-11) also Jerome> included VT100 that mostly worked, but was mainly missing the Jerome> GOLD key! Jerome> Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under Jerome> VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows Jerome> 98 SE is able to provide this feature. You can also do this in the Linux version. You just have to use xterm invoked with the right switches. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 10:52:03 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <001a01c4a055$946cd040$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <16721.40867.820802.134226@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> Hell how many people years later thaught IBM would be a niche >> player in the market they dominated when they introduced the IBM >> XT? At least DEC was going great until the 90's rolled around, >> they rode the market for longer then Apple ever did. Zane> DEC made one big mistake, getting an SOB in as CEO that looted Zane> the company and sold off bits till he was able to sell the Zane> company. Agreed -- but you're not talking about Ken Olsen anymore. paul From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Sep 22 10:52:43 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: HP Printers Message-ID: Inkjet ink is actually more expensive than champagne. Although I prefer bourbon and water but the printer may rust. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3035500.stm Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 22 10:57:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409221057.26612.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 22 September 2004 10:49, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: > Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: > > Jerome> E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby > Jerome> version runs under either Windows or Linux. VT100 emulation > Jerome> is built into E11, unlike SIMH which briefly (V9-11) also > Jerome> included VT100 that mostly worked, but was mainly missing the > Jerome> GOLD key! > > Jerome> Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under > Jerome> VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows > Jerome> 98 SE is able to provide this feature. > > You can also do this in the Linux version. You just have to use > xterm invoked with the right switches. Or, you could hook a real VT-100/420/etc up to a serial port and get perfect VT100 emulation. On Linux, at least, I don't know if E11 will let you do that on Windows. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 22 10:59:27 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> References: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> Message-ID: <200409221059.27079.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 21 September 2004 22:22, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find > > that a typewriter is still useful, even now. > > Really?! For what? > > (Besides doing a better job of faking Bush memos...) Well, it's much harder to fill out paper forms using a computer and printer (getting spacing right, measuring the form to figure out where fields are, etc). And, I prefer using my Selectric on forms to using a pen and writing it out; my handwriting isn't always that readable. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 22 11:09:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong Message-ID: <1095869390.28592.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html cheers, Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 22 11:23:49 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Jerome> E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby > Jerome> version runs under either Windows or Linux. VT100 emulation > Jerome> is built into E11, unlike SIMH which briefly (V9-11) also > Jerome> included VT100 that mostly worked, but was mainly missing the > Jerome> GOLD key! > > Jerome> Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under > Jerome> VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows > Jerome> 98 SE is able to provide this feature. > >You can also do this in the Linux version. You just have to use xterm >invoked with the right switches. > > paul And a properly configured xterm has a properly functioning keyboard. Given the choice between the two emulators, I'd much rather use E11, but as a hobbyist that can't afford a full version of E11, I tend to use SIMH for most things. SIMH also has the advantage of running on my Mac, which is good since these days I rarely have another Unix box up and running. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 22 09:10:45 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: References: <1095808358.3765.670.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040922090816.05526838@pc> At 08:29 PM 9/21/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I think the >$9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap bastard like >me. I'm not sure how secure Samba is but it would be relatively >straight-forward to setup something like this on a Linux server. A quick >web search indicates the latest versions of Samba have security features. With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no one's made a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share filesystems over the net with friends at the folder or drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be able to drop a file in a folder of a trusted friend? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 11:45:27 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <200409221059.27079.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: >>> >>> Well, it's much harder to fill out paper forms using a >>> computer and printer (getting spacing right, measuring the >>> form to figure out where fields are, etc). And, I prefer >>> using my Selectric on forms to using a pen and writing it >>> out; my handwriting isn't always that readable. >>> >>> Pat If you are running Windows and have a Scanner, check of FillMagik. Reasonable to use for single-use forms, GREAT for forms you have to fill out on a regular basis. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 11:47:42 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040922090816.05526838@pc> Message-ID: >>> >>> With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no >>> one's made a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share >>> filesystems over the net with friends at the folder or >>> drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be able to drop a file in >>> a folder of a trusted friend? >>> With Window, it is there already, the problem is that the security is so easy to break.... Btw: Anyone out there using Wireless Access Points? Have you turned off Broadcast of your SSID? Have you enabled WEP security? Do you think you are now "fairly" secure? Think again...... From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 22 12:12:02 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <200409221059.27079.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> <200409221059.27079.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4151B262.3040404@srv.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Tuesday 21 September 2004 22:22, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > >>Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> >>> As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find >>>that a typewriter is still useful, even now. >>> >>> >>Really?! For what? >> >>(Besides doing a better job of faking Bush memos...) >> >> > > >Well, it's much harder to fill out paper forms using a computer and >printer (getting spacing right, measuring the form to figure out where >fields are, etc). And, I prefer using my Selectric on forms to using a >pen and writing it out; my handwriting isn't always that readable. > >Pat > > Scan the form, load it into your favorite Word Processor or Image Editor as a background image, and type over the top of it. You don't need to worry about alighing the form into the printer just right, or that the feed mechanism will pick it at a slightly different position, etc. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 22 12:03:05 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: 4.3bsd/quasijarus w/ts11 (I have a fix) Message-ID: <200409221703.i8MH35oG002230@mwave.heeltoe.com> I know that many of you out there are running 4.3bsd-quasijarus on your vax 11/780's, 750's and 730's. And you've probably been wondering why the probe of the TS11 controller in your unibus is failing and you can't get your tape drive to work. Go ahead, admit it. You've been wondering. If you see messages like this when booting: zs0 at uba0 csr 172520 didn't interrupt The you have the problem. Well, I found a fix. Well, actually, Chris Torek, who made the change which broke the TS11 probe code also offered a 'quick fix', and it's here: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ts11+interrupt&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=12027%40dog.ee.lbl.gov&rnum=4 (I'm sending this more as an archive so the next luser like me who can't figure out why his ts11 won't work may be lucky enough to get a google hit :-) -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 22 12:21:49 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >>> >>>> Well, it's much harder to fill out paper forms using a >>>> computer and printer (getting spacing right, measuring the >>>> form to figure out where fields are, etc). And, I prefer >>>> using my Selectric on forms to using a pen and writing it >>>> out; my handwriting isn't always that readable. >>>> >>>> Pat > >If you are running Windows and have a Scanner, check of FillMagik. >Reasonable to use for single-use forms, GREAT for forms you have to fill out >on a regular basis. Not much good if you have to use the old multisheet carbon forms. Of course these days at work basically all of our forms are filled out on the web. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Sep 22 12:18:19 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: 4.3bsd/quasijarus w/ts11 (I have a fix) References: <200409221703.i8MH35oG002230@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: Cool, patches for old OSes! I wonder what could be considered the "Newest" patch for the "Oldest" OS. I wouldn't include OSes that are being actively maintained, as in FreeBSD being a continuation of the original BSD open source codebase. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: 4.3bsd/quasijarus w/ts11 (I have a fix) > > I know that many of you out there are running 4.3bsd-quasijarus on your > vax 11/780's, 750's and 730's. > > And you've probably been wondering why the probe of the TS11 controller > in your unibus is failing and you can't get your tape drive to work. > > Go ahead, admit it. You've been wondering. > > If you see messages like this when booting: > > zs0 at uba0 csr 172520 didn't interrupt > > The you have the problem. > > Well, I found a fix. Well, actually, Chris Torek, who made the change which > broke the TS11 probe code also offered a 'quick fix', and it's here: > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ts11+interrupt&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=12027%40dog.ee.lbl.gov&rnum=4 > > (I'm sending this more as an archive so the next luser like me who can't > figure out why his ts11 won't work may be lucky enough to get a google hit :-) > > -brad > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 12:47:59 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: free autorouting... Message-ID: <16721.47823.566746.404578@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Saw an ad in EE Times that might be of interest to some on this list: www.freeautorouting.com -- do the placement with the ratsnet (netlist) and send it to them; they run the Specctra autorouter over it. That's a pretty expensive piece of software. You get back an email that tells you where to retrieve the output. The ad says "you don't have to be our customer to use this free service". Neat. I don't know anything further -- haven't tried it, haven't dealt with that company (PCBnet) before. But if some of you have a PCB layout to be done that's big enough to be a pain to do manually, you might want to check this out. paul From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 12:57:44 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Update on Don Maslin Message-ID: I just made contact with Don's wife, Bristol. They're not sure what Don died of, but he'd had cancer for 18 years and he died a couple days after entering the hospital after falling ill. Understandably, she has no idea what Don has in his garage. I offered to help her sort things out and to get money for whatever computers are in his collection that are worth anything, and of course I informed her of the importance of Don's disk archive. She's very nice and willing to pass the collection along but she first wants to run everything by her nephew who knows about computers before anything happens, which is understandable. This process will take some time. Bristol has many other things to deal with of course, but she informed me that she will make sure none of the computers or software will be discarded until they can get a full idea of what they have. She said they already took 5 computers to recycling but she didn't think they were anything of concern as her computer savvy nephew was the one who chose them and felt they weren't old or valuable or anything. At any rate, she assured me that nothing will be taken for recycling until we figure out what's all there. I'd like to enlist the help of some local San Diegans to assist with the inventory of Don's collection. I will probably end up making a trip down there in the future to either help with the dispersal of his collection and/or retrieve the disk archive. It would be a great help to Bristol if someone with knowledge of vintage computers can help her nephew identify the valuable machines so she can decide what she wants to do with them. And of course, to help identify the disk archive. I would imagine (or hope at least) Don had it pretty well organized and labelled, but we need someone to identify and separate it from the rest of his collection. Also, I want to give Don a tribute at the upcoming VCF 7.0. I'd like to talk a bit about Don's life and what he did for a career and all that. His wife didn't know much about Don's computing career and so I'm hoping that some people on the list who got to know Don and his history can share it with me. I'll keep the list updated as the process moves along. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 22 13:05:24 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001d01c4a0ce$bbcb0c50$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > > A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating a > > remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS. > > I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I > think the $9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for > a cheap bastard like me. Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been thinking a bit about their business model since the topic came up. If they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate and cheaper than RAID 5 for this application), and assuming they use "street" 73GB SCSI hard drives, then, ignoring the processor the drives are connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of drives (a pair for 0+1, SCA), but they're selling it for less than $150. And that doesn't include the cost of the SAN, bandwidth, etc. SAN manufacturer-branded drives are even more expensive usually. I wonder where and how their economy of scale is that makes it work. Maybe they're picking up Network Appliances from eBay. :-) There was an earlier comment about multiple data centers; doubtful, with these economics. Patrick From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 13:06:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <200409221057.26612.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 22 September 2004 10:49, Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: > > Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: > > > > Jerome> E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby > > Jerome> version runs under either Windows or Linux. VT100 emulation > > Jerome> is built into E11, unlike SIMH which briefly (V9-11) also > > Jerome> included VT100 that mostly worked, but was mainly missing the > > Jerome> GOLD key! > > > > Jerome> Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under > > Jerome> VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows > > Jerome> 98 SE is able to provide this feature. > > > > You can also do this in the Linux version. You just have to use > > xterm invoked with the right switches. > > Or, you could hook a real VT-100/420/etc up to a serial port and get > perfect VT100 emulation. On Linux, at least, I don't know if E11 will > let you do that on Windows. :) Better yet, a VT520: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=1158 :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 22 13:18:15 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040922090816.05526838@pc> Message-ID: <003e01c4a0d0$87250ad0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > With all the p2p crud out there today, I wonder why no one's made > a dirt-simple way for Joe User to share filesystems over the net > with friends at the folder or drive-letter level. Shouldn't I be > able to drop a file in a folder of a trusted friend? There's already a way of using Google's mail service as a mounted file system under Linux. Only 1GB though. -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From michael.passer at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 13:20:54 2004 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: free autorouting... In-Reply-To: <16721.47823.566746.404578@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16721.47823.566746.404578@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <9b0f05d604092211206cbc0d35@mail.gmail.com> My spider sense detects an upcoming modification to the next version of Specctra's license agreement. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 13:17:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <1095869390.28592.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 22 13:29:41 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: 4.3bsd/quasijarus w/ts11 (I have a fix) In-Reply-To: References: <200409221703.i8MH35oG002230@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: >Cool, patches for old OSes! I wonder what could be considered the "Newest" >patch for the "Oldest" OS. I wouldn't include OSes that are being actively >maintained, as in FreeBSD being a continuation of the original BSD open >source codebase. I've seen patches for TOPS-10 in the last couple of years. TOPS-20 is to a certain extent still maintained. People have done Y2k patches for various OS's no longer maintained. 2.11BSD is still maintained, as is 4.3BSD. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Sep 22 13:10:42 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:00:24 EDT." <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200409221810.TAA12373@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Jerome H. Fine" said: > E11 is normally about 10 times the speed of SIMH. The hobby > version runs under either Windows or Linux. ...or MSDOS... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Sep 22 13:16:25 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:24 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:57:26 CDT." <200409221057.26612.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200409221816.TAA12437@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Patrick Finnegan said: > > Or, you could hook a real VT-100/420/etc up to a serial port and get > perfect VT100 emulation. On Linux, at least, I don't know if E11 will > let you do that on Windows. :) It *should* do, it certainly does in MSDOS, I have a headless 486 running DOS & E11 with a Qume QVT103 terminal. For an exercise in frustration, try running MSDOS from a terminal... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 13:39:46 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <001d01c4a0ce$bbcb0c50$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <16721.50930.951280.674527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "patrick" == patrick writes: >> > A useful service I admit. You could implement this by simulating >> a > remote "mount" using an ssh tunnel, or (ugh) NFS. >> >> I'd like to, since even at the lowest service level (5GB) I think >> the $9.95 per month charge is a bit much, at least for a cheap >> bastard like me. patrick> Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been thinking a bit patrick> about their business model since the topic came up. If patrick> they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate and cheaper than RAID 5 for patrick> this application), and assuming they use "street" 73GB SCSI patrick> hard drives, then, ignoring the processor the drives are patrick> connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of patrick> drives (a pair for 0+1, SCA), ... Not to detract from your argument in this particular case, but... RAID 5 is cheaper than RAID 1, because a larger fraction of the disk capacity is useful capacity. Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking at (S)ATA disk based solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or FC based. SCSI and FC are the ultra high performance technology point, not the high capacity point. paul From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 13:43:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <001d01c4a0ce$bbcb0c50$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Patrick/VCM SysOp wrote: > Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been thinking a bit about their > business model since the topic came up. If they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate > and cheaper than RAID 5 for this application), and assuming they use > "street" 73GB SCSI hard drives, then, ignoring the processor the drives are > connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of drives (a pair > for 0+1, SCA), but they're selling it for less than $150. And that doesn't Well, let's see here: 73GB / 5GB at the $9.95 level = about 14 subscriptions = $140 per month so they break even in 3 months. Not bad. > include the cost of the SAN, bandwidth, etc. SAN manufacturer-branded > drives are even more expensive usually. I wonder where and how their > economy of scale is that makes it work. Maybe they're picking up Network > Appliances from eBay. :-) > > There was an earlier comment about multiple data centers; doubtful, with > these economics. Maybe they're just doing it dirt cheap Google-style: just throw a huge number of cheap hard drives at the problem and use lots of mirroring. If one fails, throw it out and replace it, then re-mirror. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 22 13:58:09 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen References: <0409220324.AA08729@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <1095834437.7755.4.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <4151CB41.4010409@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > Me too. I eventually did get a TDL/Xitan FORTRAN version of ADVENTURE > running (CP/M 2.2 and PDOS), but I've never played any other computer > games I can recall (OK the old numeric TREK typed into DG Nova 1200 > BASIC). It was all hardware, device drivers, tape storage, and operating > systems for me too Lets face it most of the time BASIC was used it was for GAMES! And M$ for the most part too! > Games on computer bore me to tears to this day. I can't imagine a more > collosal waste of time! Obviously, an entire *world* of people today > think otherwise, more power to 'em! But with out games, I don't think computers would have moved to Bit-Mapped displays. Ben. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 14:11:27 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> References: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> Message-ID: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> > If > you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not > what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and > the word width were the same. ... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to define a character. For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but modulo 8 == 0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be byte-addressed. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine there are 6-bit-character-addressable instruction sets too. Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there was no hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of busses, registers and paths; this was because constructing those things cost actual money and scaling of silicon didn't exist. Lots of machines have different width regs/accumulator, memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic units, etc. (My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, 12-bit program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) (Nothing in a Microchip Inc PICxxxx except the register files is byte-width!) For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant generally. Boy with hammer: everything looks like a nail. From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 22 14:25:48 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <16721.50930.951280.674527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <004101c4a0d9$f6ecfbd0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > patrick> Funny you should say that Sellam. I've been > thinking a bit patrick> about their business model since the > topic came up. If patrick> they're using RAID 0+1 (adequate > and cheaper than RAID 5 for patrick> this application), and > assuming they use "street" 73GB SCSI patrick> hard drives, > then, ignoring the processor the drives are patrick> > connected to, it would cost them over $400 for 73GB worth of > patrick> drives (a pair for 0+1, SCA), ... > > Not to detract from your argument in this particular case, but... Paul, I'm not really arguing a position, just puzzling over how they make it possible to make enough money to be in business for as long as they've been. > RAID 5 is cheaper than RAID 1, because a larger fraction of > the disk capacity is useful capacity. I stand corrected! That's absolutely right. > Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking at (S)ATA > disk based solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or > FC based. SCSI and FC are the ultra high performance > technology point, not the high capacity point. Indeed, and I guess I'm kind of stuck on "classic" SAN hardware, which is generally SCSI and FC. I think the really big SAN equipment is pretty much all SCSI and FC, and I think for this application you need the economy of scale that comes from a SAN with lots of drives and relatively few processors, switches, and other supporting equipment. Every time you have to add that non-storage stuff, you're just adding to cost of goods. I've seen small SATA SANs, but not big 42-unit rack type things yet. Is anybody making them yet? Using them? Patrick From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 14:26:04 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16721.53708.50663.871129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: >> If you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that >> is not what I was talking about. In many early computers, the >> data buss and the word width were the same. Tom> ... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking Tom> about memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on Tom> machines whose major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 Tom> bits. Many, many machines were built on a multiple of 6 bits Tom> because that's how many it took to define a character. Tom> For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but Tom> modulo 8 == 0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be Tom> byte-addressed. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine there Tom> are 6-bit-character-addressable instruction sets too. In some sense, you could say that of the Burroughs 5000/6000 series. Those had character pointers, though most of the memory addressing was to 48 (or 51, if you count the flag field) bit words. How about the IBM 1620, with digit-addressable memory, 5 bits plus parity per addressable entity? Tom> Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there Tom> was no hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of Tom> busses, registers and paths; this was because constructing those Tom> things cost actual money and scaling of silicon didn't Tom> exist. Lots of machines have different width regs/accumulator, Tom> memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic units, etc. Tom> (My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, Tom> 12-bit program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) Or the CDC 6600 CPU: 60 bit memory, some 60 and some 18 bit registers. In the PPU: 12 bit memory, 18 bit accumulator. If you count the link bit, the PDP-8 has a 13 bit accumulator I believe. Tom> For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant Tom> generally. ...though the term might be used to describe a 6 bit chunk, or a 12 bit chunk (CDC), or a variable width chunk (PDP-10). paul From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 22 14:35:19 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004201c4a0db$4b5c7910$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > Well, let's see here: 73GB / 5GB at the $9.95 level = about > 14 subscriptions = $140 per month so they break even in 3 > months. Not bad. True, but after adding the cost of the processors that manage those drives (SAN or otherwise), plus networking hardware, a little bandwidth, and a few headcount to keep it all glued together, it's an impressive achievement. You have to work hard to keep all that overhead from eroding your margins quickly. > Maybe they're just doing it dirt cheap Google-style: just > throw a huge number of cheap hard drives at the problem and > use lots of mirroring. If one fails, throw it out and > replace it, then re-mirror. It would have to be. I guess the real question is, what's controlling those drives. At the scale at which I'm used to buying hardware, I think it wouldn't play. Google-scale buying power is my geek wet dream. One thing seems certain: they oversubscribe. That alone may be the answer. Patrick From vern4wright at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 14:35:59 2004 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <20040922193559.38743.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> I read the list through the digests, and not always frequently. So let me re-introduce myself. I am a past-president of the San Diego Computer Society. In about 1986 I founded Dina-SIG, a special interest group of the San Diego Computer Society. Don Maslin immediately showed up, and we became fast friends and have remained so ever since. I find it difficult to speak of him in the past tense. Don took on a special project for Dina-SIG, and made it his own: the archiving of software for classic computers. I have of course talked with his wife Winnie, and she has asked that people interested in Don's software archives and his hardware collection hold off on contact until further notice through this list. Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, and I will personally guarantee that the archives will be duplicated and copies deposited with people and institutions which will honor the attitude that Don put into this effort - one of love for old stuff and and of service to the community. In time his hardware collection will also be made available to the community. I ask you to consider Mrs. Maslin's position and not attempt to intervene at this time. Vern Wright vern4wright@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 14:37:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4151CB41.4010409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > > Games on computer bore me to tears to this day. I can't imagine a more > > collosal waste of time! Obviously, an entire *world* of people today > > think otherwise, more power to 'em! > > But with out games, I don't think computers would have moved to > Bit-Mapped displays. Without games we would be 5000 years behind our current human history. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 14:43:12 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up References: <16721.50930.951280.674527@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <004101c4a0d9$f6ecfbd0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <16721.54736.698230.353721@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "patrick" == patrick writes: >> Also, if you want capacity, you should be looking at (S)ATA disk >> based solutions, of which there are a bunch, not SCSI or FC based. >> SCSI and FC are the ultra high performance technology point, not >> the high capacity point. patrick> Indeed, and I guess I'm kind of stuck on "classic" SAN patrick> hardware, which is generally SCSI and FC. I think the patrick> really big SAN equipment is pretty much all SCSI and FC, and patrick> I think for this application you need the economy of scale patrick> that comes from a SAN with lots of drives and relatively few patrick> processors, switches, and other supporting equipment. Every patrick> time you have to add that non-storage stuff, you're just patrick> adding to cost of goods. I've seen small SATA SANs, but not patrick> big 42-unit rack type things yet. Is anybody making them patrick> yet? Using them? We make them, and our customers use them. 14 drive building blocks, which combine into groups for bigger configurations (more space, more speed). 4 unit groups (16 TB) are common. We have run internal tests quite a lot larger than that. Some people would like you to believe that iSCSI and SATA are only for the low end. Don't believe them, it's not true. paul From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 14:41:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > If > > you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not > > what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and > > the word width were the same. > > ... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about > memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose > major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines > were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to > define a character. I always thought that the technical definition of a "byte" is "8-bits". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 15:00:58 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> > If > you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But >> that is not > what I was talking about. In many early computers, >> the data buss and > the word width were the same. >> >> ... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about >> memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines >> whose major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many >> machines were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how >> many it took to define a character. Vintage> I always thought that the technical definition of a "byte" Vintage> is "8-bits". Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. If you want a word for 8-bit chunk, nothing smaller, nothing larger, say "octet". (That makes you sound like a network geek, admittedly -- it's where the term originated, I believe.) paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 22 15:04:33 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... Message-ID: <0409222004.AA10120@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I always thought that the technical definition of a "byte" is "8-bits". That's the current definition among beige-box kids, I thought the original definition was the smallest *addressable* unit of memory, wasn't it? That's the reason why RFCs use the term "octet" for 8 bits, not "byte". MS From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 22 15:19:51 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: (OT) archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <16721.54736.698230.353721@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <004401c4a0e1$84091510$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > We make them, and our customers use them. 14 drive building > blocks, which combine into groups for bigger configurations > (more space, more speed). 4 unit groups (16 TB) are common. > We have run internal tests quite a lot larger than that. Cool! Thank you, Paul!!! > Some people would like you to believe that iSCSI and SATA are > only for the low end. Don't believe them, it's not true. We give Service Level Agreements to our customers, and so I for one don't really care about what's considered low-end or high-end. I care about what woks in my environment and doesn't make me drive to the facility at 2am (and stay until the following 2am). We've got some of the so-called "high-end" gear, and it's not that reliable, expensive to keep on maintenance, and the manufacturer is unpleasant to deal with (they'll kill themselves to sell you a unit, but the post-sales support experience is completely different). Of course, the fact that I can get an SATA drive at my local CompUSA, where they don't sell anything SCSI, let alone SCA, is an attractive notion. Thanks for the tip/info! Patrick From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 15:55:35 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. Well, if newfangled means after 7 April 1964. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 22 16:07:31 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. William> Well, if newfangled means after 7 April 1964. Is that when IBM did the 360? But at that time they were merely one of the users of the term "byte", and arguably the odd man out by applying it to 8 bits rather than the more common 6. It wasn't until all the other machines had disappeared that you could argue "of course byte means 8 bits". So, perhaps, around 1985 or so (when the PDP-10 pretty much disappeared). Or perhaps not yet. There are still machines in production use where byte does not mean 8 bits. Cyber mainframes, for example. paul From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 16:05:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Don Maslin In-Reply-To: <20040922193559.38743.qmail@web60808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Vernon Wright wrote: > Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, and I will > personally guarantee that the archives will be duplicated and copies > deposited with people and institutions which will honor the attitude > that Don put into this effort - one of love for old stuff and and of > service to the community. Vern, What steps will be taken to get the archive duplicated and distributed? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 16:24:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths In-Reply-To: <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: And I always though the exact definition of a byte was based on how many teeth your 'puter had..... From aek at spies.com Wed Sep 22 16:24:59 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <20040922212459.67CA73C78@spies.com> I was going to stay out of this, but.. > Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, and I will > personally guarantee that the archives will be duplicated There is unmarked, unread, and uncataloged material as well. My particular concern is I sent hundreds of 8" discs to Don through his nephwew up here to archive, which he never touched. I can't imagine that I was the only person that did this. It is going to be a non-trivial effort to find, read, and organize all of this. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 22 17:02:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Don Maslin Message-ID: <200409222202.PAA03683@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Vern Thanks for being there. I hope his wife understands how many people her husband has helped. We all wish her and the rest of her family the best. We have all lost a friend. Dwight >From: "Vernon Wright" > > >I read the list through the digests, and not always >frequently. So let me re-introduce myself. > >I am a past-president of the San Diego Computer >Society. > >In about 1986 I founded Dina-SIG, a special interest >group of the San Diego Computer Society. Don Maslin >immediately showed up, and we became fast friends and >have remained so ever since. I find it difficult to >speak of him in the past tense. > >Don took on a special project for Dina-SIG, and made >it his own: the archiving of software for classic >computers. > >I have of course talked with his wife Winnie, and >she has asked that people interested in Don's software >archives and his hardware collection hold off on >contact until further notice through this list. > >Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, >and I will personally guarantee that the archives will >be duplicated and copies deposited with people and >institutions which will honor the attitude that Don >put into this effort - one of love for old stuff and >and of service to the community. > >In time his hardware collection will also be made >available to the community. > >I ask you to consider Mrs. Maslin's position and not >attempt to intervene at this time. > >Vern Wright > >vern4wright@yahoo.com > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 22 17:20:33 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <414DF6BE.6080402@cableone.net> <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <4151FAB1.9060502@cableone.net> The IBM 7070, The first computer I worked on, had 10 bits per byte and 9K of memory. The 10 bits must have been a hold over from the decimal system. I have no idea why there was 9K of memory. Tom Jennings wrote: >>If >>you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not >>what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and >>the word width were the same. >> >> > >... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about >memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose >major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines >were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to >define a character. > >For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but modulo 8 == >0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be byte-addressed. I don't >know for sure, but I would imagine there are 6-bit-character-addressable >instruction sets too. > >Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there was no >hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of busses, registers >and paths; this was because constructing those things cost actual money >and scaling of silicon didn't exist. Lots of machines have different >width regs/accumulator, memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic >units, etc. > >(My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, 12-bit >program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) > >(Nothing in a Microchip Inc PICxxxx except the register files is >byte-width!) > >For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant generally. > >Boy with hammer: everything looks like a nail. > > > > From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Sep 22 17:35:47 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations Message-ID: <4151FE43.5000905@vzavenue.net> I have five gmail invitations to pass out. Any takers? First come, first served. I'll be out this evening but will take care of any requests as soon as I get back in. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 22 17:49:50 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <4151FAB1.9060502@cableone.net> References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <4151FAB1.9060502@cableone.net> Message-ID: <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> The IBM 7090 was the first machine I worked on - but I am familiar with the IBM 7070. The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the 7070 was a bi-quinary (2 out of 5) encoded machine. There were 3 accumulators and 99 index registers. Memory locations were used for the accumulators (9991, 9992 and 9993), the program counter was 9995. The index registers were memory locations 1-99. Technically memory ran from 0-9999, but maximum memory was specified as 9900 words - as that was approximately what was available as "standard" (non register) memory. Memory words were 10 decimal digits plus sign Lyle On Wednesday 22 September 2004 15:20, Jim Isbell wrote: > The IBM 7070, The first computer I worked on, had 10 bits per byte and > 9K of memory. The 10 bits must have been a hold over from the decimal > system. I have no idea why there was 9K of memory. > > Tom Jennings wrote: > >>If > >>you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not > >>what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and > >>the word width were the same. > > > >... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about > >memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose > >major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines > >were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to > >define a character. > > > >For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but modulo 8 == > >0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be byte-addressed. I don't > >know for sure, but I would imagine there are 6-bit-character-addressable > >instruction sets too. > > > >Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there was no > >hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of busses, registers > >and paths; this was because constructing those things cost actual money > >and scaling of silicon didn't exist. Lots of machines have different > >width regs/accumulator, memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic > >units, etc. > > > >(My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, 12-bit > >program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) > > > >(Nothing in a Microchip Inc PICxxxx except the register files is > >byte-width!) > > > >For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant generally. > > > >Boy with hammer: everything looks like a nail. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 17:51:09 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1095893468.3864.32.camel@fiche.wps.com> > Vintage> I always thought that the technical definition of a "byte" > Vintage> is "8-bits". On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 13:00, Paul Koning wrote: > Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. If you want a word for > 8-bit chunk, nothing smaller, nothing larger, say "octet". (That > makes you sound like a network geek, admittedly -- it's where the term > originated, I believe.) Well, in general today (there's that dangerous phrase again...) a byte is 8 bits, and rarely will you go wrong. I believe that most uses of 'byte' to mean 'smallest multi-bit unit' .NE. 8 are IBMish, 1960-ish, and obsolete (there's another...) and its adherents were not only killed in the Wars but their bodies stomped into the mud and gravestones turned over. But I've been wrong before. Paul is absolutely correct -- octet is the UNambiguous word for a grouping of 8 bits. I also believe came from the telecom world, it's certainly in heavy use there (also most internet RFCs). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 22 17:57:27 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: HP Printers In-Reply-To: <011001c4a019$90a14090$0500fea9@game> References: <200409191704.i8JH3KnD007569@huey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20040921113934.03231d10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040922154428.00a7b790@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 04:28 PM 9/21/04 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: >You really can't beat a laser printer for cheap B&W output, not sure how the >color lasers fare against inkjets. >The only thing hurting the old laserjets is speed, DPI, and no built in >networking. My LJ 4 does a "real" 600 dpi, 8 PPM, and has more kinds of network plugin than you can shake a stick at, currently using a 10/100 bt ethernet that knows appletalk as well. Inkjets may make nice color prints, photo quality etc., but since I have both I can say the major problem is that I use the ink jet so little the heads tend to dry outrequiring a cleaning cycle which makes ink use staggering. My inkjet says its some wild 2880 dpi or some such, but it NEVER has the quality of output the LJ4 does in terms of artifact free, clean crisp print. What hurts the old printers is that they are big heavy boxes. (period) OTOH HP department level printers haven't fundamently changed squat since the LJ4, faster maybe, but thats about it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 17:27:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Sep 22, 4 08:55:22 am Message-ID: > > While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all do-all, like some proponents, I do > not think is a is *Botch* either. There is plenty I don;t like about it. Like so much of modern computing it's designed to let idiots do simple tasks trivially, but it also makes it impossible for hackers to do difficult tasks. Since I seem to always want to do the latter.. I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-) And the fact that you seem to need special drivers for many devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines. And the fact that it's very assymmetric (there are 'masters' and 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much more symmetrical. An example of why I don't like this. My HP100LX has an RS232 port. It was clearly designed to link it to a PC to transfer files (and it does this perfectly well). But as it's an RS232 port I can also link it directly to a serial printer, or to a modem, or... More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves, designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual) > > Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other I've never seen an ISA USB card... > platforms as well [I integrated a USB sub-system with and embedded ARM-7 > system last year], so I am confused about your stantement that not of the > computers you have *CAN* have usb ports. All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB for any of them > > I also don't understand youstatement that it is not a bus..... Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need to _always_ have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair amount of logic). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 17:29:28 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock In-Reply-To: <16721.32017.349000.854996@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 22, 4 09:24:33 am Message-ID: > Tony> If it is a syncronome, there are likely to be contacts for > Tony> slave dials too > > No, those are the same contacts. A synchronome has the slave dials > wired in series with the master clock contact and solenoid and the > battery. That's actually a key part of the system, allowing things to You are, of course, correct. I was thinking of another master-slave clock system where the pendulum was maintained by a Hipp Toggle, and there were serparate contacts for the slave dials... [And for a really strange system, look at the original 'Magneta'...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 17:34:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4151B262.3040404@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Sep 22, 4 11:12:02 am Message-ID: > Scan the form, load it into your favorite Word Processor or Image Editor > as a background image, and type over the top of it. You don't need to worry 1) I don;t have a scanner 2) Muy favourite word processor is called TeX.... 3) If the form has a coloured background or logo, I'd have to buy a coloured printer. The manual typewriter is a lot simpler and easier to keep running... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 17:12:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> from "Joseph S. Barrera III" at Sep 21, 4 08:22:56 pm Message-ID: > > As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find that > > a typewriter is still useful, even now. > > Really?! For what? Well, I certainly still use an old manual typewriter for filling in printed forms. A lot easier than convincing a word processor to put things in the right places. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 17:19:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] CEEFAX short story contest In-Reply-To: <003101c4a07b$d39e3940$7dc3033e@gamemachine> from "charlesb@otcgaming.net" at Sep 22, 4 09:08:23 am Message-ID: > > You gotta have the crappy music to go along with the teletext pages :D Yes, but the BBC micro teletext decoders (both the Acorn and Morley ones) didn't demodulate the sound carrier... -tony From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 18:07:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <0409222004.AA10120@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409222004.AA10120@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1095894477.3864.50.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 13:04, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > I always thought that the technical definition of a "byte" is "8-bits". > > That's the current definition among beige-box kids, I thought the original > definition was the smallest *addressable* unit of memory, wasn't it? > That's the reason why RFCs use the term "octet" for 8 bits, not "byte". We had to oppress the non-8-bit-byte zealots for a simply reason -- you can't make nybbles out of odd bytes! From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 18:10:35 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095894634.3864.53.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 13:55, William Donzelli wrote: > > Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. > Well, if newfangled means after 7 April 1964. Now dearest William, I know your birthday is important to you, but it many not necessarily be cause for general celebration... From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Sep 22 18:13:52 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lyle Bickley wrote: > The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the > 7070 was a bi-quinary (2 > out of 5) encoded machine. Do you know why a bi-quinary encoding was used instead of the more obvious 8-4-2-1 BCD encoding scheme? I've been a bit curious about that. More generally, I've been curious why decimal architectures held on for so long, given the higher cost of the CPU logic. In the older semi-electronic punch-card calculators, it clearly simplified the logic overall, as they were running simple hard-wired (plug-board) programs interfacing with decimal-oriented electromechanical input and output. I can also see where it made sense on smaller digit-serial designs. In a large-scale parallel CPU, however, it's not clear to me why a binary architecture (doing binary to decimal conversion in software) wasn't preferred right from the start. --Bill From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 18:14:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1095894887.3864.61.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 14:07, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >> Not in this community! Newfangled usage, yes. > William> Well, if newfangled means after 7 April 1964. > > Is that when IBM did the 360? > > But at that time they were merely one of the users of the term "byte", > and arguably the odd man out by applying it to 8 bits rather than the > more common 6. I've seen references to 'byte' meaning lots of numbers 6 - 9, but was it ever really weighted towards 6? Most references I've seen to the 6-bit-unit was simply, 'character'. But I spent no time around IBM (except one brief stint on TSO onna 360 writing 8x300 code). > Or perhaps not yet. There are still machines in production use where > byte does not mean 8 bits. Cyber mainframes, for example. What's a cyber byte size? From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 22 18:20:06 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: HP Printers References: <200409191704.i8JH3KnD007569@huey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20040921113934.03231d10@pop-server.socal.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20040922154428.00a7b790@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <415208A6.8010704@cableone.net> DPI means little when you are printing mechanical printer quality printed documents. A laserJet has such good quality print that its hard to beat with anything less than an old fashioned hand fed printer. Why would you do anything else on a LaserJet? If you are doing graphics or pictures, you need color and the LaserJet doesn't have that. The LaserJet is unsurpassed at quality text document production. > At 04:28 PM 9/21/04 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> You really can't beat a laser printer for cheap B&W output, not sure >> how the >> color lasers fare against inkjets. >> The only thing hurting the old laserjets is speed, DPI, and no built in >> networking. > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 22 18:20:28 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen Message-ID: <0409222320.AA10521@ivan.Harhan.ORG> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > 2) Muy favourite word processor is called TeX.... Mine's troff. Currently using it to write a book on UFOs and exopolitics. MS From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 18:21:19 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <4151FAB1.9060502@cableone.net> <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <1095895279.3864.72.camel@fiche.wps.com> I'm honored to be around so many 2nd-gen machine users! Clearly the 'byte' discussion applies to binary machines. I assume the unit for decimal machines is simply a 'digit'? On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 15:49, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The IBM 7090 was the first machine I worked on - but I am familiar with the > IBM 7070. > > The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the 7070 was a bi-quinary (2 > out of 5) encoded machine. There were 3 accumulators and 99 index registers. > Memory locations were used for the accumulators (9991, 9992 and 9993), the > program counter was 9995. The index registers were memory locations 1-99. > > Technically memory ran from 0-9999, but maximum memory was specified as 9900 > words - as that was approximately what was available as "standard" (non > register) memory. > > Memory words were 10 decimal digits plus sign > > Lyle > > On Wednesday 22 September 2004 15:20, Jim Isbell wrote: > > The IBM 7070, The first computer I worked on, had 10 bits per byte and > > 9K of memory. The 10 bits must have been a hold over from the decimal > > system. I have no idea why there was 9K of memory. > > > > Tom Jennings wrote: > > >>If > > >>you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not > > >>what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and > > >>the word width were the same. > > > > > >... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about > > >memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose > > >major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines > > >were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to > > >define a character. > > > > > >For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but modulo 8 == > > >0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be byte-addressed. I don't > > >know for sure, but I would imagine there are 6-bit-character-addressable > > >instruction sets too. > > > > > >Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there was no > > >hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of busses, registers > > >and paths; this was because constructing those things cost actual money > > >and scaling of silicon didn't exist. Lots of machines have different > > >width regs/accumulator, memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic > > >units, etc. > > > > > >(My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, 12-bit > > >program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) > > > > > >(Nothing in a Microchip Inc PICxxxx except the register files is > > >byte-width!) > > > > > >For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant generally. > > > > > >Boy with hammer: everything looks like a nail. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 22 18:23:50 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: zorba and 4p Message-ID: <200409221923.51893.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I had a modular micro Zorba and a TRS80 4p portable dropped of today. Looking at the zorba website http://www.zorba.z80.de/telcon.htm there is mention that the disks are also available from Don Maslin. Large pile of software and disks with them to play with this Friday. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 18:32:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> Message-ID: <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:05, John Foust wrote: > Today's backup problems will be tomorrow's preservation problems, "Permanent" media (fiche, paper) are only part of the solution; none of it's any good if you can't find it! Only one copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls was found, and it is I think partially ruined; Archimedes 'Method' became a palimpsest, and few scholars are going to make that much effort to recover Mary Programmer's scribblings. I imagine something like a National Archive where every citizen was allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S. Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche. You could appeal for more, based upon a very loose standard of merit, but everyone would get space for love letters, baby pictures, favorite car, etc suitably stored on fiche. Copies could be requested and produced for a small fee, of ANYONE'S fiche, based upon the index. No data would ever be purged, ever. I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible treasure it would be, for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time. For the 1% of us that generate large amounts of data, the national fiche could be an index into larger stores, which could even be commercial or private. Some would fail, but others could thrive by providing unique services. THEN you'd have the basis for real archiving. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 18:47:38 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Usb - Pro/Con In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Taking it "Point by Point"... >>> > While I do agree that USB is NOT a be-all do-all, like some >>> > proponents, I do not think is a is *Botch* either. >>> >>> There is plenty I don;t like about it. Like so much of >>> modern computing it's designed to let idiots do simple >>> tasks trivially, but it also makes it impossible for >>> hackers to do difficult tasks. Since I seem to always want >>> to do the latter.. >>> >>> I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID >>> (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your >>> own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-) You need to pay for and get certified if you are going to make a legitimate network appliance also [MAC ID]. Of course most products purchase a pre-sertified module. Same if you are going to create a cellular product [I happen to use WaveCom modules in mine]. >>> And the fact that you seem to need special drivers for many >>> devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines. Although I can not find the link at presend, there is source code for low level drivers. Since your environment (by choice) is the use of equipment that is not currently supported, rooling your own drivers seems reasonable to me. >>> And the fact that it's very assymmetric (there are 'masters' and >>> 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much >>> more symmetrical. RS-232 is an ELECTRICAL Specification. The protocols that are run on This are independand. Lets keep it apple and apples..... Consider RS-485 (Which I use heavily for my DMX lighting). One note MUST act as a coordinator, although they are all electrically equivilant. >>> An example of why I don't like this. My HP100LX has an >>> RS232 port. It was clearly designed to link it to a PC to >>> transfer files (and it does this perfectly well). But as >>> it's an RS232 port I can also link it directly to a serial >>> printer, or to a modem, or... >>> More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves, >>> designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to >>> a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds >>> have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop >>> controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a >>> printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them >>> to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual) >>> To be honest, I have not looked into the electricals on this. I am NOT sure that they are *REQUIRED* to be slaves. >>> > >>> > Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are >>> kits for >>> > other >>> >>> I've never seen an ISA USB card... >>> Check out the products from SimTec. Their offerening have changed, but they do have ISA USB Cards. >>> > platforms as well [I integrated a USB sub-system with and >>> embedded >>> > ARM-7 system last year], so I am confused about your >>> stantement that >>> > not of the computers you have *CAN* have usb ports. >>> >>> All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, >>> Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots >>> (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of >>> those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB >>> for any of them >>> Again, development boards ARE out their that give you everything you need to interface to nearly any host... >>> > I also don't understand your statement that it is not a bus..... >>> >>> Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up >>> connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need >>> to _always_ >>> have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair >>> amount of logic). By that argument (which has valid aspects), then ArcNet was not a bus either, and RS-232 is DEFINITELY not a bus architecture (it is purely point to point). From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 18:49:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <1095894477.3864.50.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> We had to oppress the non-8-bit-byte zealots for a simply >>> reason -- you can't make nybbles out of odd bytes! >>> Or we would have adopted the standard of a CRUMB = 1 bit. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 22 18:43:58 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040922234358.GA4366@mapo1.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 11:27:37PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Any x86 style computer CAN have a usb port, and there are kits for other > > I've never seen an ISA USB card... Nor PCMCIA (_not_ CARDBUS - there _are_ USB CARDBUS cards). My old Dell LM laptop was out in the cold with USB as well - it was running the latest version of RedHat (maxed out to 72MB!), but no USB available. > All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, Qbus, BBC > 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots (like on th HP9830), HPIL, > PERQlink, etc. Just about all of those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, > I've nver seen USB for any of them Very much agreed there. Few of my machines have PCI slots, nothing that isn't Alpha or Pentium. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2004 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.0 F (-70.0 C) Windchill -128.3 F (-89.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 084 Barometer 672 mb (10929. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Sep 22 18:49:32 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <1095893468.3864.32.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1095893468.3864.32.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20040922234932.GB4366@mapo1.spole.gov> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 03:51:09PM -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > Paul is absolutely correct -- octet is the UNambiguous word for a > grouping of 8 bits. I also believe came from the telecom world, it's > certainly in heavy use there (also most internet RFCs). I believe that is because many of the guys making early contributions had their feet firmly planted in the 36-bit world (with 6 6-bit chars per machine word). An 'octet' is unambiguously 8 bits. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2004 23:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.0 F (-70.0 C) Windchill -128.3 F (-89.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 084 Barometer 672 mb (10929. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Wed Sep 22 18:52:06 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <1095880286.3864.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <4151FAB1.9060502@cableone.net> <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <41521026.40703@cableone.net> I worked on the 7070 in 1959/60 time frame. It was a wonder of science at the time. I remember looking at the new frame of core memory that we had just added and imagining that if I stuck a screw driver into it and twisted it around, that the computer might scream. Lyle Bickley wrote: >The IBM 7090 was the first machine I worked on - but I am familiar with the >IBM 7070. > >The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the 7070 was a bi-quinary (2 >out of 5) encoded machine. There were 3 accumulators and 99 index registers. >Memory locations were used for the accumulators (9991, 9992 and 9993), the >program counter was 9995. The index registers were memory locations 1-99. > >Technically memory ran from 0-9999, but maximum memory was specified as 9900 >words - as that was approximately what was available as "standard" (non >register) memory. > >Memory words were 10 decimal digits plus sign > >Lyle > >On Wednesday 22 September 2004 15:20, Jim Isbell wrote: > > >>The IBM 7070, The first computer I worked on, had 10 bits per byte and >>9K of memory. The 10 bits must have been a hold over from the decimal >>system. I have no idea why there was 9K of memory. >> >>Tom Jennings wrote: >> >> >>>>If >>>>you hold the word width constant, yes, you are right. But that is not >>>>what I was talking about. In many early computers, the data buss and >>>>the word width were the same. >>>> >>>> >>>... and many did not. The 'byte' as a convention for talking about >>>memory is just that, a convention, and fails miserably on machines whose >>>major casual metric is not a multiple of 8 bits. Many, many machines >>>were built on a multiple of 6 bits because that's how many it took to >>>define a character. >>> >>>For machines which have some architectural feature > 8 but modulo 8 == >>>0, 32- and 64-bit wide memory and paths could be byte-addressed. I don't >>>know for sure, but I would imagine there are 6-bit-character-addressable >>>instruction sets too. >>> >>>Until more or less when CPUs fit entirely within silicon, there was no >>>hard and true correlation between the bit-widths of busses, registers >>>and paths; this was because constructing those things cost actual money >>>and scaling of silicon didn't exist. Lots of machines have different >>>width regs/accumulator, memory, index regs, program counters, arithmetic >>>units, etc. >>> >>>(My LGP-21 is a good example: 32-bit accumulator, 31-bit memory, 12-bit >>>program counter, double-32 product reg, 4- or 6-bit I/O.) >>> >>>(Nothing in a Microchip Inc PICxxxx except the register files is >>>byte-width!) >>> >>>For non-multiple-of-8 machines, the 'byte' is not relevant generally. >>> >>>Boy with hammer: everything looks like a nail. >>> >>> > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 19:16:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <200409221549.50434.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the 7070 was a > bi-quinary (2 out of 5) encoded machine. There were 3 accumulators and Here's a good description of bi-quinary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-quinary_coded_decimal -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 19:26:02 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible treasure it would be, > for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any > person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time. I like it. I'd like to see it happen. Unfortunately, it would require a huge shift in the way our society looks at itself. I.E. we'd have to move away from treasuring our possessions above all else and move towards treasuring our memories and experiences above all else. Good luck. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 22 19:43:31 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:25 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 02:05, John Foust wrote: > > > Today's backup problems will be tomorrow's preservation problems, > > "Permanent" media (fiche, paper) are only part of the solution; none of > it's any good if you can't find it! Only one copy of the Dead Sea > Scrolls was found, and it is I think partially ruined; Archimedes > 'Method' became a palimpsest, and few scholars are going to make that > much effort to recover Mary Programmer's scribblings. > > I imagine something like a National Archive where every citizen was > allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled > permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S. > Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche. You could > appeal for more, based upon a very loose standard of merit, but everyone > would get space for love letters, baby pictures, favorite car, etc > suitably stored on fiche. > > Copies could be requested and produced for a small fee, of ANYONE'S > fiche, based upon the index. > > No data would ever be purged, ever. > > I'm serious about this. Imagine what an incredible treasure it would be, > for a country's citizens to be able to retrieve any snapshot of any > person's work back to the beginning of (recorded) time. > > For the 1% of us that generate large amounts of data, the national fiche > could be an index into larger stores, which could even be commercial or > private. Some would fail, but others could thrive by providing unique > services. > > THEN you'd have the basis for real archiving. > > A thousand years from now nobody is going to care about what 99.999% of the population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your information up? What people will want to know is what was common of the society as a whole, this is where we need to archive all our inventions, sexual religion and moral codes, laws, entertainment, commercial software, magazines, pricing of goods, TV shows, movies, and public works information (building codes, road layouts, piping standards, construction in general). All that is what made us tick and the government keeps tabs on most of it. Somebody will devise a system to document all of this digitally into an ever growing database with the data on some kind of write once read many times media deep in a bunker (or multiple archives) spread out all over the world (or maybe the moon). To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we didn't find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put together 1000 years from now? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 20:04:45 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Do you know why a bi-quinary encoding was used instead of >>> the more obvious 8-4-2-1 BCD encoding scheme? Possible answers.... A) It matches an Abacus... B) It matches (some?) nixie style tubes? C) It is just a really cool word? D) It is a great stumper for Geek-Jeopardy? [actually I blieve the answer to be "B" with a touch of "A"] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 22 19:54:53 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409221754.53772.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 22 September 2004 16:13, William Maddox wrote: > --- Lyle Bickley wrote: > > The IBM 7070 was modeled after the IBM 650 - so the > > 7070 was a bi-quinary (2 > > out of 5) encoded machine. > > Do you know why a bi-quinary encoding was used instead > of the more obvious 8-4-2-1 BCD encoding scheme? I've > been a bit curious about that. --snip-- To the best of my knowledge, it was a leftover from punched cards. On a 650, 10 digits per word were used for storing data - and a punched card could hold 8 words of data (8x10=80 column punched card). "Instructions" had 2 digits OP code, 4 digits data address, 4 digits next address and sign. Given that most programmers were "graduating" from unit record machines (IBM 407, etc.) to program the 650 - they were used to "decimal everything". IBM didn't want to change the paradyme - at least not in early commercial systems. (Note that all of IBM's scientific computers [704, 709, Stretch, 709x, 704x, etc.] were pure binary). Internally, the 650 used bi-quinary which only requires 6 bits to represent one of 10 decimal digits. One bit (the "bi" in bi-quinary) represented "0" or "5" and what the other five bits represented was dependent on the state of the "bi" bit; i.e., "bi" bit --------- 0 1 --------- 0 5 1 6 2 7 3 8 4 9 Kinda shrewd - and helped early unit record folks in deal with simple binary and "mostly" decimal ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 20:17:45 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1095902265.3864.218.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 16:13, William Maddox wrote: > Do you know why a bi-quinary encoding was used instead > of the more obvious 8-4-2-1 BCD encoding scheme? I've > been a bit curious about that. More generally, I've > been curious why decimal architectures held on for so > long, given the higher cost of the CPU logic. In the > older semi-electronic punch-card calculators, it > clearly simplified the logic overall, as they were > running simple hard-wired (plug-board) programs > interfacing with decimal-oriented electromechanical > input and output. I can also see where it made sense > on smaller digit-serial designs. In a large-scale > parallel CPU, however, it's not clear to me why > a binary architecture (doing binary to decimal > conversion in software) wasn't preferred right from > the start. Biquinary has some advantages when constructed from vacuum tubes, because tubes are so awful as logic elements (every element in a tube has a fairly large capacitor connected between each element, in effect, and electrons have to travel a *fraction of an inch* within the device). (You can even get a single tube to count to N, however unreliably, using a phantastron circuit.) Don't take the existence of B-to-D software conversions for granted -- on slow memory (drums for instance) that alone could double or more runtimes already measured in hours, on machines with MTBF of hundreds of hours (early on). Besides, what else is there to do with an electronic automatic computer but to calculate numbers? And when you are doing so in machine code, with no what we'd call developmental software about, it's a substantial advantage to do so in human systems. There were many hardware solutions to B-to-D and D-to-B, some quite involved. For the first half of the 1950's, it wasn't universally agreed that compilers and interpreters were even a *good idea*, since so much performance and control would be lost, etc. FORTRAN removed most of those objections. At some point it was obvious that decimal wasn't the right approach from a density and facilities view, and it Went Away. (There exist biquinary NIXIE tubes; two anodes for the 10 digits. I have a few I think.) There are plenty of electronic numbering systems; things you'd think are obvious, like Binary Coded Decimal bits weighted 8, 4, 2, 1, are not obvious, there were/are a lot of other schemes. I'm sure actual old timers could fill in a lot here. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 20:30:09 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <1095902265.3864.218.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: > There are plenty of electronic numbering systems; things you'd think are > obvious, like Binary Coded Decimal bits weighted 8, 4, 2, 1, are not > obvious, there were/are a lot of other schemes. > > I'm sure actual old timers could fill in a lot here. Well, I was born before 7 April 1964, but I do know that some of the other schemes were used in telemetry because they were 2 of 5 - sort of like built-in stupid parity. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Sep 22 20:29:28 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <4151FE43.5000905@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <00f801c4a10c$e56fb7c0$6e7ba8c0@p933> I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me from) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: GMail Invitations I have five gmail invitations to pass out. Any takers? First come, first served. I'll be out this evening but will take care of any requests as soon as I get back in. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 20:30:56 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1095903056.3864.232.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 17:43, Teo Zenios wrote: > A thousand years from now nobody is going to care about what 99.999% of the > population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution > to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were > a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your > information up? I totally disagree. First, it presupposes that people today know in advance what people of some far-flung time will care about. Second, a few hundred million people making utterly personal and seemingly random deposits of information would tell VAST amounts about that culture. Three, often 'valuable' isn't obvious until long after the event. Four, it's the only honest system, everything else implies an agenda, including self-serving political ones (no deposits by women, "of course", or N-skinned people, etc). > What people will want to know is what was common of the society as a whole, > this is where we need to archive all our inventions, sexual religion and > moral codes, laws, entertainment, commercial software, magazines, pricing of > goods, TV shows, movies, and public works information (building codes, road > layouts, piping standards, construction in general). All that is what made > us tick and the government keeps tabs on most of it. Precisely what individual people will deposit! > Somebody will devise a system to document all of this digitally Huh?! > To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, I can only assume this is a flippant remark -- who could possibly decide what of an entire civilization is worth saving? > if we didn't > find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think > it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of > everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put > together 1000 years from now? Take a look at the stuff that provides the most information on how people in some long-gone civilization lived -- pots with food remnants, doodles, clothing, burials, tools -- all of it ephemera. The Big Stuff -- statues, buildings, etc -- there's no problem saving those (well, no *new* problem saving those :-) since they are popular, expensive, etc. Clearly, I don't expect the U.S. to do this, what with our national right-to-profit movement defining what is valuable. The U.S. can't see beyond the next corporate annual report at the moment. I'm not holding my breath. Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps, the only honest scheme we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for a while! From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 20:32:04 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Is that when IBM did the 360? It was the signing of the death warrants for all 5, 6 and 9 bit based architectures. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 20:32:43 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: zorba and 4p In-Reply-To: <200409221923.51893.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200409221923.51893.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20040922182914.D81963@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: > I had a modular micro Zorba and a TRS80 4p portable dropped of today. > Looking at the zorba website http://www.zorba.z80.de/telcon.htm > > there is mention that the disks are also available from Don Maslin. Don is not shipping any disks any more. It is not yet known who, if anyone, will be taking over providing that service. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 20:40:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we didn't > find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think > it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of > everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put > together 1000 years from now? Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and places and things from 1000 years ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 20:48:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <00f801c4a10c$e56fb7c0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > > First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > from) Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I buy some on eBay? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 20:52:37 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095902265.3864.218.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> <1095902265.3864.218.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20040922184640.P81963@shell.lmi.net> There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! For example, check Mike Cowlishaw's pages at IBM: http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/decifaq.html http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/decifaq3.html#bingood etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com How would society have developed if the more dominant of our ancestors didn't have stinky feet? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 22 20:36:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Usb - Pro/Con In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Sep 22, 4 07:47:38 pm Message-ID: > >>> I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID > >>> (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your > >>> own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-) > > You need to pay for and get certified if you are going to make a legitimate > network appliance also [MAC ID]. Of course most products purchase a You didn't need to pay for anything if you wanted to make an RS232 device. > pre-sertified module. Same if you are going to create a cellular product [I > happen to use WaveCom modules in mine]. > > >>> And the fact that you seem to need special drivers for many > >>> devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines. > > Although I can not find the link at presend, there is source code for low > level drivers. Since your environment (by choice) is the use of equipment Ah, sop now if I buy a product the first thing I have to do is write special drivers for it..... And hope that I can get enough of a spec on the product to allow me to do this. > that is not currently supported, rooling your own drivers seems reasonable > to me. > > >>> And the fact that it's very assymmetric (there are 'masters' and > >>> 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much > >>> more symmetrical. > > RS-232 is an ELECTRICAL Specification. The protocols that are run on > This are independand. Lets keep it apple and apples..... OK, Asynchronous bit-serial data, sent LSB first, using the RS232 voltage and connector specifications :-) > >>> More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves, > >>> designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to > >>> a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds > >>> have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop > >>> controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a > >>> printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them > >>> to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual) > >>> > > To be honest, I have not looked into the electricals on this. I am NOT sure > that they are *REQUIRED* to be slaves. There is, of course, nothing rreally to stop you making a handheld 'master' (althoguh the master has to supply power to all devices on the USB chain), but the fact remains that AFAIK all handheld machines currently on sale are 'slaves' > >>> All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, > >>> Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots > >>> (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of > >>> those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB > >>> for any of them > >>> > > Again, development boards ARE out their that give you everything you need to > interface to nearly any host... Most of the developemnt boards I've looked at assume you're making a slave device. This is not what I need. > > >>> > I also don't understand your statement that it is not a bus..... > >>> > >>> Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up > >>> connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need > >>> to _always_ > >>> have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair > >>> amount of logic). > > By that argument (which has valid aspects), then ArcNet was not a bus > either, and RS-232 is DEFINITELY not a bus architecture (it is purely point > to point). No argument there. But neither of those claim to be a bus. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 22 21:07:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <200409230207.TAA03844@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we didn't >> find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think >> it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of >> everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put >> together 1000 years from now? > >Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and >places and things from 1000 years ago. > >-- Hi Of course, pictures without captions would be of less interest than ones with captions. How many albums seem to lack context. Sellam is right, I'd love to see how people did simple day to day kinds of things from 1K years ago. Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 21:08:29 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <20040922184640.P81963@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one of them. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Sep 22 21:09:22 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <16721.40743.429351.863725@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409221057.26612.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <41523052.7123A10@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 22 September 2004 10:49, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: > >> Jerome> Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under > >> Jerome> VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only Windows > >> Jerome> 98 SE is able to provide this feature. > > You can also do this in the Linux version. You just have to use > > xterm invoked with the right switches. > Or, you could hook a real VT-100/420/etc up to a serial port and get > perfect VT100 emulation. On Linux, at least, I don't know if E11 will > let you do that on Windows. :) Jerome Fine replies: YES!! If there is a serial port on the Windows 98 SE motherboard, then it is a standard part of E11: ASSIGN TT1 COM1: At one point, I even had a real DEC TU-58 drive hooked to the COM2: port and was able to BOOT RT-11 from a V3.x tape with RT-11. When I first started to use E11 in 1997, the 166 MHz Pentium did not have the correct video card to handle 132 character text lines under the editor within RT-11. As suggested above, I used a real VT100 connected to the serial port to look at listings from MACRO-11. However, when E11 and the hardware are compatible and 132 character text lines are possible, then E11 allows: ASSIGN TT0 CON1 (Alt/F1 - default - always done for the user) ASSIGN TT1 CON2 (Alt/F2) ASSIGN TT2 CON3 (Alt/F3) ...... ASSIGN TT11 CON12 (Alt/F12) Switching from Console (CON1, CON2, CON3, etc.) to Console is done using the Alt/Fn key pairs. As a result, the monitor is able to handle up to 12 DIFFERENT emulated terminals. On the real DEC PDP-11, I have 6 VT100 terminals on my desk (stacked 2 high so only 3 are on the desk). With E11, I only have to use the Alt/Fn key pair to switch back and forth. Other than forgetting which Console is which, I can't look at more than one Console at a time in any case - or have not found a way to did it as yet;) PLUS, since the output is via the AGP card on the Pentium III, the speed of output is just a bit faster than 9600 baud on a serial port. As for the current differences between hobby and Full E11, John Wilson has expanded the hobby memory to the full 4 MBytes and the total emulated hard disk drives up to 256 MBytes. The hobby version can't use the BCI card nor can "raw" SCSI drives be used. Also, RAM: disk drives are not supported. BUT, for hobby users, I do not see that as a major problem under RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 22 21:10:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations Message-ID: <200409230210.TAA03848@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > >> I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. >> >> First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a >> contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me >> from) > >Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I >buy some on eBay? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Any special colors or flavors? Dwight From wacarder at usit.net Wed Sep 22 21:28:28 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, > if we didn't > > find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now > will think > > it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion > pictures of > > everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put > > together 1000 years from now? Sellam > Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and Sellam > places and things from 1000 years ago. I have to throw in my two cents worth here too. I find it quite fascinating to be able to see and feel and touch things from long ago. I have a lock of hair from my dad's first haircut around 1930. I have his little shoes from when he was a baby. I have many letters written by my great great great grandmother to her family back in Virginia after she moved to Iowa and lived among the buffalo and native Americans in the 1840s. I have old photographs of family members from the 1870s. I have the tools my great grandfather used back in the 1800s. I play old fiddle tunes on the same fiddle that my great grandfather and his uncle were fiddling on from the 1850s to the 1930s. I have my grandfather's school papers and books from 1910-1915. All of these things tell a story of those who came before us and give us the personal view into their lives, especially the old letters that tell what they ate, what kind of flowers and vegetables they planted, the fact that the women complained about how men didn't have any use for vegetables until they were cooked and on their plate (in 1870), and lots of other stuff. I have repaired my dad's toy trains from the 1930s and I run them at Christmas and the modern small kids still marvel at them and like to press the button that makes the whistle blow. When I was in my 20s a few decades ago, I wrote down all the stories that the old folks told me about our families back years ago. Does everyone care about this stuff? No. Do I care? Yes. I will find a worthy person a generation or two after me to pass it on to (hopefully!). I guess that's why I am working to rebuild an old computer system. It's a way to preserve something fascinating from my past and hopefully have it available to anyone who might be interested in knowing what the academic computer world was like in the 1970s. The past, the present, and the future are all part of one continuous, never ending story. It's up to us to preserve things for those who come after us. It's up to those who come after us to determine what they are interested in from the things we leave. I suppose I've rambled again...... Ashley From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 21:22:10 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: References: <00f801c4a10c$e56fb7c0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: Better than ebay : gmailswap.com Gmail is really great for handling high volume mailing lists, like this one. Plus it's really fast, completly different from other webmails, and 1 Gb mailbox space is just nice ;) Stephane On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:48:30 -0700 (PDT), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > > > I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > > > > First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > > contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > > from) > > Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I > buy some on eBay? > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Wed Sep 22 21:26:20 2004 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <4151FE43.5000905@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <200409222215750.SM02392@bobdev> > I have five gmail invitations to pass out. What are these all about? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 22 21:26:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: some HP history Message-ID: <001001c4a114$d0706060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I found another interesting link to a document about the history of HP, squarely on the HP-3000. This is vaguely similar to the other document I posted a while back, but a different one nontheless. Enjoy! http://www.3k.com/papers/hp3000_history.html Jay From spc at conman.org Wed Sep 22 21:32:39 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Sep 22, 2004 11:00:24 AM Message-ID: <20040923023239.CAD1773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jerome H. Fine once stated: > > Because of my requirement for 132 character text lines under > VT100 editing (because I use MACRO-11 listings), only > Windows 98 SE is able to provide this feature. Linux does support higher text resolutions (my firewall console is currently set to 132x60) but the video card has to support the text resolution you require (I've found it to be hit or miss). I use lilo to set the video mode, but there is a way to do it from the command line (although I've forgotten how). -spc (I tend to use xterm nowadays ... ) From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Sep 22 21:33:47 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010c01c4a115$c1082c60$6e7ba8c0@p933> They had/have a certain cachet (to borrow a phrase I recently read) and demand outstripped supply for a while. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but it is free email with 1 GB of storage. I've already given away half of the ones I offered under an hour ago. They were selling/trading on Craigslist for a while but I haven't checked lately. I don't know if anyone bothered with eBay. I think that an @gmail.com account is considered the opposite of an @aol.com account as far as coolness goes! :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: GMail Invitations On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > > First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > from) Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I buy some on eBay? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Sep 22 21:49:03 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? Message-ID: <200409230249.TAA03862@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I feel it is right for some purposes. I feel more confident when I know the bank is using a decimal based computer. Dwight >From: "Fred Cisin" > >There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that >DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! > >For example, check Mike Cowlishaw's pages at IBM: >http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/decifaq.html >http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/decifaq3.html#bingood >etc. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com >How would society have developed if the more dominant >of our ancestors didn't have stinky feet? > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Sep 22 22:04:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <200409222215750.SM02392@bobdev> Message-ID: >>> >>> > I have five gmail invitations to pass out. >>> >>> What are these all about? >>> I guess people here are often "turtles".... Doesn't anybody READ any more???? [Pre 1990 material does NOT count] From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 22:21:10 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text Message-ID: In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton Commander being one of them). Were these modes standard? I still have the PC+, and I doubt I will ever get rid of it for some reason. It is a pretty weird machine, and I don't think many were made. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 22 22:42:38 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text Message-ID: <0409230342.AA11238@ivan.Harhan.ORG> William Donzelli wrote: > In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? 0, 1, 2, 3. 40x25 and 80x25. > Were these modes standard? No. MS From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 22 22:45:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040922203705.T81963@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? > I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in > several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it > this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton > Commander being one of them). > Were these modes standard? No, but not especially rare. The "standard" text modes were: CGA: (startying at segment B800) 0? B&W 40 x 25 1? Color 40 x 25 2 B&W 80 x 25 3 Color 80 x 25 MDA: (starting at segment B000) 7 Mono 80 x 25 Int 10, fn 0F would return which mode you were in. Almost all software supported modes 3 and 7. Some demented P.O.S. programs would insist on trying to display color, even if you had deliberately switched into mode 2. > I still have the PC+, and I doubt I will ever get rid of it for some > reason. It is a pretty weird machine, and I don't think many were made. Wyse made some fun weird stuff! I liked the Wyse 700 / Amdek 1280 monitor and "special" video board, that did 1280 x 800? b*w pixels, and could be easily coerced into 160 x 50 text -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 22 22:47:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095911239.3827.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 19:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > > DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! > > If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one of them. I don't see this page as a need to 'return to decimal hardware' so much as people really need to consider accuracy and precision et al in arithemetic systems. These are turing-derived machines, after all, and can do decimal arithmetic when we want them to. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 22 23:21:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? > > I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in > several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it > this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton > Commander being one of them). > > Were these modes standard? > > I still have the PC+, and I doubt I will ever get rid of it for some > reason. It is a pretty weird machine, and I don't think many were made. I think I've got one. Or at least, I've got a weirdish Wyse PC. The processor is on an ISA card that also has the keyboard connector, which is a modular phone plug type. Weird. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Sep 22 23:29:22 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: some HP history References: <001001c4a114$d0706060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000801c4a125$e6530980$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> there are some serieous error in this if I remember it correctly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: some HP history I found another interesting link to a document about the history of HP, squarely on the HP-3000. This is vaguely similar to the other document I posted a while back, but a different one nontheless. Enjoy! http://www.3k.com/papers/hp3000_history.html Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 22 23:41:50 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I think I've got one. Or at least, I've got a weirdish Wyse PC. The > processor is on an ISA card that also has the keyboard connector, which is > a modular phone plug type. Weird. I think I used one of those machines as well, but I don't think it is the PC+. This weird thing is a desktop machine with the same footprint of a normal XT, but is only about 2 inches high. The innards are very clever - in that pizza box they managed to put a custom motherboard (I recall it uses 4 x 16K DRAMs, rather than the industry standard 1 x 64K chips), spaces for a half height floppy and a half height hard disk, a power supply with a tiny little fan (very powerful, however), and still have space for two full size ISA cards. The tube supplied with the unit was also very odd - a normal looking Wyse thing, very similar to their terminals, but the phosphor (green) was very long persistance. In an absolutely dark room, you could read the last text on the screen 20 minutes (yes, minutes) after the thing was shut off. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 22 23:56:12 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, if we didn't > > find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now will think > > it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion pictures of > > everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put > > together 1000 years from now? > > Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people and > places and things from 1000 years ago. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival You can see pictures of people and places and things from 1000 years ago, its called art, architecture, and artifacts. One of the reasons people are so interested in the past is because of the little information that has survived plus their need to learn things nobody else knows. I have read and seen lots of pictures on ancient Greece but nothing beats climbing up the road to the Acropolis to see it yourself even if it is a shell of what it really looked like ages ago. Same with standing on the center stone of a 1000+ year old amphitheater that the ancient storytellers used for famous plays. I would love to climb an Inca ruin someday and look out into the countryside for miles an miles and ponder what drove the religious people to offer human sacrifices on the very spot you stand on. I mentioned the finger paintings because every married friend I knew with kids loved to show off those finger paintings on their refrigerator to anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less. Unless its your kids painting you really don't care. If everybody archived those (which they would since it meant something to them) would anybody ever bother looking at them in 1000 years? There is such a thing as too much information, sensory overload. If enough material survives from today so that people from 1000 years from now are a little curious about us then that is good. Let the archeologists dig in our trash pits to see what we read, ate, tools we used, fashion we wore, books we read etc. If we lay everything out for them (assuming they can make heads or tails out of it) there is no mystique to it, nothing to ponder, no need to dig up the past and to see for themselves what it was all about. The best thing is for people to read our history from the victors side and then do dig up the vanquished to see what really happened. People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would be like reading 10 years on income tax forms. Save what we think is important and let other generations go dig up what they think was important about us. I really think people here collect computers because deep inside it means something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. Do you really want to document every single thing we treasure about a specific machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could just look it up as needed, or do you really wish something important was forgotten from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it together, and find out what the hunk of metal really does? From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Sep 22 23:56:04 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: Message-ID: <001301c4a129$aa1d6240$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:20 AM Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from Mr. > > Bush's backers. > > So who were you really voting for ? > > Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than you > think. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Yes I know , the paper said that they're funding Nader because he pulls a lot of Democrat votes rather than Republican , thus swinging things Bush's way. Geoff. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Sep 23 00:12:28 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095911239.3827.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1095911239.3827.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200409222212.28006.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Having spent four and a half years running IT at the Philadelphia Federal Reserve Bank and almost ten years responsible for Investment Quantitative Analysis, Trust Systems and Automation Planning for a major regional bank (now Wachovia) - I can assure you that banks do all their accounting in decimal. Investment analysis, manket and economic models, arbitrage analysis, regression analysis, etc. are done in floating point. They really know the difference and when it's important do use decimal v. "binary"... Lyle On Wednesday 22 September 2004 20:47, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 19:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > > > DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! > > > > If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one of > > them. > > I don't see this page as a need to 'return to decimal hardware' so much > as people really need to consider accuracy and precision et al in > arithemetic systems. > > These are turing-derived machines, after all, and can do decimal > arithmetic when we want them to. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 23 00:42:27 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <200409230210.TAA03848@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923013820.0559d2a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dwight K. Elvey may have mentioned these words: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > > > >> I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > >> > >> First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > >> contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > >> from) > > > >Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? They're of a great benefit if you want google to remember every email you ever sent & received & index it *forever* for future searches, even if you delete it from your inbox. Me... I'll pass. I like having control of my own email, thankyouverymuch. > > Can I buy some on eBay? Anything's available for enough $$$... >Any special colors or flavors? Chartreuse! [[ Okay, that was the color of the DUKW I was on for the Duck Tours in Boston this summer. Seems the guy *really* liked chartreuse! ;-) ]] -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 23 00:44:08 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: It's back up... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923014230.0559e880@mail.30below.com> I dunno about anyone else, but I haven't received any list messages for a day or two... was the list down, or just sporadic? (It's gone sporadic a time or two before...) Jay, you mentioned a dying hard drive. Need a donation? I could spare a sawbuck your way for the new one... Lemme know! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 23 00:44:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical > to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would > be like > reading 10 years on income tax forms. Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do remain will be more interesting?! > I really think people here collect computers because deep inside it > means > something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. I agree that's probably true to some degree, large or small. > Do you > really want to document every single thing we treasure about a > specific > machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could > just look > it up as needed, Well, yes! > or do you really wish something important was forgotten > from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it > together, and > find out what the hunk of metal really does? I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave puzzles of the present for the future to decode?! From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 23 01:40:39 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <009801c4a138$3df51950$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:44 AM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical > > to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would > > be like > > reading 10 years on income tax forms. > > Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do > remain will be more interesting?! No, I mean describe the Commodore 64 (as an example) enough so that somebody might be interested enough to go dig one up and be able to repair it as needed to run it. If we saved every C64 in mint condition so that people 1000 years from now are tripping over them still, nobody will want to use one (just like people here today don't even want to look at a common 486 PC running windows 3.11, but will fall all over themselves to get parts for machines that are not common). Time along with apathy by the next generations will end up loosing what we hold dear to us, our job is to leave enough clues and tell a good enough story that future generations will want to know more. > > I really think people here collect computers because deep inside it > > means > > something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. > > I agree that's probably true to some degree, large or small. > > > Do you > > really want to document every single thing we treasure about a > > specific > > machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could > > just look > > it up as needed, > > Well, yes! What a boring world that will be, like playing an old game you never seen with the complete walkthrough in your hands never having to figure anything out on your own. > > > or do you really wish something important was forgotten > > from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it > > together, and > > find out what the hunk of metal really does? > > I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave > puzzles of the present for the future to decode?! Yes why not, give them all the pieces and hopefully a few people will put the puzzle together and test it out. People today have no reason to build egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our present technology. The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their society (in our crude forms) but a few people will be putting the puzzle together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of people 1000 years from now. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 23 01:50:55 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <0409230650.AA11546@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Teo Zenios wrote: > People today have no reason to build > egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our > present technology. No, we cannot. MS From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 23 02:00:47 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923024750.03954a50@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 21:56, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical > > to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would > > be like > > reading 10 years on income tax forms. > >Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do >remain will be more interesting?! Well, yes! Sometimes I think: "If I lost my wife..." life could be more interesting! :-O > > Do you > > really want to document every single thing we treasure about a > > specific > > machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could > > just look > > it up as needed, > >Well, yes! Think of it as "parity." We *try* to save everything available, but some will invariably get lost. Hopefully, we've saved enough so it's not super-difficult to figure out what didn't survive. (oh, and for only 20 years, I don't see the importance. *200* years, however...[1] How many people are happy that the plans for Babbage's analytical engine hadn't gone *poof*?) > > or do you really wish something important was forgotten > > from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it > > together, and > > find out what the hunk of metal really does? > >I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave >puzzles of the present for the future to decode?! Sure. Put a couple of crossword / cryptogram books & whatnot in a time capsule. However, WRT the classic machines, I agree that we should attempt to leave as little to chance as possible. There is some redundancy that can help here, too. If a fair portion of info about OS-9/68K is lost, but a large portion of info about OS-9/6809 survives, "computer archeologists" could use the existing knowledge to (possibly) rebuild a large portion of what was lost. Sure, it's not perfect, but at least they'd have access to *some* of the basics, instead of starting from scratch. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] And of course, to reach 200 years, we must first pass 20... So I guess 20 years isn't important historically, unless too much is already lost by then. Then we're already screwed for the next 180... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 23 02:11:08 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <009801c4a138$3df51950$0500fea9@game> References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923030151.051b7d80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >...People today have no reason to build >egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our >present technology. But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves were needed to build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc. > The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were >built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything >was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people >like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our >computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their >society (in our crude forms)... Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines, but the older tech survives, it would be a lot more important for people to not have to take an extra 50 years to figure it out again. Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure. Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was round and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to that knowledge was unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again thought the world was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they access to the Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars averted) would have been possible. > but a few people will be putting the puzzle >together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be >interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It >doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life >that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of >people 1000 years from now. Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat & the moon is made of green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step *backwards* for mankind! Why should we relegate our progeny to generations of ignorance due to our lack of planning? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 02:39:49 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion Message-ID: Ok, I am reading the RSTS/E 7.0 system generation manual.. and I am looking at my existing simh hard disk files and what may be available.. I can't seem to find information for RSTS as to what it calls it's disk drives.. I have two RL01 images which RSTS calls DL0: and DL1:, and DSKINT and HARDWR see them also as RL and they seem to have 2MW of capacity. I can have other kinds of disks, for instance RMO3 simh=RP RSTS=???? DSKINT/HARDWR=RR Capacity=33mw Ten times the size but what does RSTS call them? I would like to find a table/list that shows all the different disk models and what RSTS calls them. Can anyone point me to the proper manual? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 02:43:00 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: RSTS/PDP11 quick reference guides Message-ID: <316CC0A0-0D34-11D9-8375-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> As I usually do when investigating some new (old) hardware, I like to create a "Quick Reference Guide" Usually in form an 8 1/2 x 11 page with 3 columns on each side meant to be folded in 3rds. Ok RSTS/E people what should be on a quick reference guide? Basic syntax? Commands? The PPN's of common subsystems like OPSER? SPOOL? (are those locations standard?) From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 23 03:00:33 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040923030151.051b7d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <00c301c4a143$6778fe80$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:11 AM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: > >[snip] > >...People today have no reason to build > >egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our > >present technology. > > But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves were needed to > build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc. > The people who built the Pyramids and the Great Wall were not slaves, but citizens fullfilling their "tax" for the ruling party. If we threw the same amount of cash as we have dumped into the Iraq war we could build the specialized equipment needed to create the great pyramids and hire the smaller labor force needed to complete it, technology isn't the problem just logistics and money and carefull planning would take care of that. > > The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were > >built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything > >was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people > >like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our > >computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their > >society (in our crude forms)... > > Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines, but the older > tech survives, it would be a lot more important for people to not have to > take an extra 50 years to figure it out again. A Global EMP would shut down the entire industrial world, everything of importance is powered buy chips faster then a 486 at some critical point in the system. Where would you even start rebuilding and would it be built the same way it was? > Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure. > > Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was round > and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to that knowledge was > unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again thought the world > was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they access to the > Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept > their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars > averted) would have been possible. The Roman world collapsed because of barbarian invasion and the aftermath of 100's of years of illiterates running their small chunk of land followed by religion as government (burning people as heretics if they even mentioned the world was flat). That is a problem with society and the role of religion, not with archives (same church that doesn't believe in evolution TODAY). > > but a few people will be putting the puzzle > >together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be > >interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It > >doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life > >that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of > >people 1000 years from now. > > Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat & the moon is made of > green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step *backwards* for mankind! Why > should we relegate our progeny to generations of ignorance due to our lack > of planning? Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a global nuclear war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever happened? > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch@30below.com From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Thu Sep 23 05:25:24 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923013820.0559d2a0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923013820.0559d2a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4152A494.4000602@vzavenue.net> Google archiving everything doesn't really matter to me as I'm not going to say anything in an email that I would really care if anyone else saw it or not. Anyway, I also host my own mailserver on blackcube.org. If I did need to say something that I really want to be able to eliminate all traces, I'd route it through there. With all of the surveillance laws and corporate accountability laws in place these days, who is to say that any random ISP isn't archiving all email that passes through their servers anyway? Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Dwight K. Elvey may have mentioned these words: > >> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> > >> >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: >> > >> >> I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. >> >> >> >> First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a >> >> contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me >> >> from) >> > >> >Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? > > > They're of a great benefit if you want google to remember every email > you ever sent & received & index it *forever* for future searches, > even if you delete it from your inbox. > > Me... I'll pass. I like having control of my own email, thankyouverymuch. > >> > Can I buy some on eBay? > > > Anything's available for enough $$$... > >> Any special colors or flavors? > > > Chartreuse! > > [[ Okay, that was the color of the DUKW I was on for the Duck Tours in > Boston this summer. Seems the guy *really* liked chartreuse! ;-) ]] > > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch@30below.com > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 05:47:10 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:26 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095936430.30307.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 18:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > > > I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > > > > First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > > contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > > from) > > Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I > buy some on eBay? I had this conversation with someone the other day. Far as I can tell, all of your emails are essentailly treated as a flat-file structure (i.e. no folders / sub-folders) - so the only way to find something is by searching for it. I don't know about anyone else, but half the time I find it much easier to find things by remembering where I put them, rather than recalling enough of the content to be able to search for the item I want (and not turn up hundreds of results) Furthermore, I believe that gmail doesn't believe in you using any other systems than their own - no import / export / pop3 access etc. Spam filtering - I don't know, but I imagine you're stuck with what they give you. Then there were the privacy concerns - as google give you targetted advertising there was the concern that some process somewhere is 'reading' all your emails and acting upon their content. Whilst that one doesn't bother me that much personally (I expect google to be compentant in areas of security) I can see why it got a lot of people upset. Bottom line to me is that it's not worth it - I'd rather go with a flexible service. Actually I handle all my mail on a local server - currently with 13GB free on the mail spool drive, and I can always use grep if I want to search for something :-) (now having the option of using google's search technology in a local environment on top of a traditional mail app would be quite nice) cheers, Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From jim at smithy.com Thu Sep 23 06:40:20 2004 From: jim at smithy.com (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 22:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > > DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! > > If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one of them. I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of is the Wang VS, which came standard with support for 'packed decimal' data, and even floating-point decimal. The Wang VS instruction set was very similar to the IBM 360/370, even the packed decimal data format was the same. Jim From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 23 07:05:20 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> At 07:40 AM 9/23/2004, you wrote: >I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) >that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal >adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full >add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of is the >Wang VS, which came standard with support for 'packed decimal' data, and >even floating-point decimal. The Wang VS instruction set was very >similar to the IBM 360/370, even the packed decimal data format was the >same. DEC PDP11/23 CPU has sockets for 2 extra chips (40 pin DIPS). One is hardware floating point. This is fairly common. The other for a CIS - Commercial Instruction Set with full set of decimal instructions as you list. Never used one though. Ed K. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 23 07:56:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <001301c4a129$aa1d6240$0200a8c0@geoff> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:56 AM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:20 AM >Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> >> > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from >Mr. >> > Bush's backers. >> > So who were you really voting for ? >> >> Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than you >> think. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival > >Yes I know , the paper said that they're funding Nader because he pulls a >lot of Democrat votes rather than Republican , thus swinging things Bush's >way. Exit polls have CONSISTANTLY shown that Nader takes more votes away from the Republican than from the Democrats. I've heard CLAIMS that the republicans secretly finance Nader but I neve seen any proof and I don't beleive the claims. Joe From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 08:06:50 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <200409230210.TAA03848@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > >> I've got a dozen of the same and have the same offer. > >> > >> First come, first served. Just drop me an email with your name and a > >> contact email address (if different from the one you're emailing me > >> from) > > > >Are these in high demand or something? Of what benefit are they? Can I > >buy some on eBay? > > Any special colors or flavors? It's an albatross! It's bloody seabird flavor, isn't it! (sorry, in a Monty Python mood this morning) From AppleTO at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:39:43 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: GMail Invitations In-Reply-To: <1095936430.30307.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1095936430.30307.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1047a6e6040923063939bf104e@mail.gmail.com> I use gmail for exactly one mailing list: this one. No personal email, period. In other words, privacy isn't a huge concern, provided you play it safe with cookies (ie. you avoid linking your gmail identity to your searches on google or google advertising). Then again, I have enough confidence in google's technical capacity to believe that they have mastered techniques of tracking by IP addresses. Any way you look at it, you don't have much privacy even if you do try to protect it. Anyhow, I have addresses for the offering if you want one. I'll probably put four up for offer, and keep the remaining two incase I find a friend or relative who doesn't have one and wants one. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 09:16:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >>> I mentioned the finger paintings because every married >>> friend I knew with kids loved to show off those finger >>> paintings on their refrigerator to >>> anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less. If you "could care less" then you have a level of caring which is possible to decrease [by definition]. Therefore by your own statement, YOU REALLY DO CARE, but you may be in denial!!! On the other hand, perhaps "You couldn't care less". Seriously: I tend to agree with most of what you posted. This mis-use of a phrase just happens to be the #1 thing that bugs me when it comes to improper logic in a statement. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 09:20:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040923030151.051b7d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the >>> Earth was round >>> and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to >>> that knowledge was >>> unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again >>> thought the world >>> was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they >>> access to the >>> Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd >>> bet they kept >>> their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. >>> advances (or wars >>> averted) would have been possible. >>> Or wars caused, or techonologies NOT invented because what they found was "good enough". Be careful of "what if" analysis....... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 09:22:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <00c301c4a143$6778fe80$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >>> (burning people as heretics if they even mentioned the world was flat). Um...isnt that backwards.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:01 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Roger Merchberger" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:11 AM >>> Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up >>> >>> >>> > Rumor has it that Teo Zenios may have mentioned these words: >>> > >[snip] >>> > >...People today have no reason to build >>> > >egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we >>> wanted to with our >>> > >present technology. >>> > >>> > But not with our present labor force. A *lot* of slaves >>> were needed to >>> > build the pyramids, great wall of China, etc. >>> > >>> >>> The people who built the Pyramids and the Great Wall were >>> not slaves, but >>> citizens fullfilling their "tax" for the ruling party. If >>> we threw the same >>> amount of cash as we have dumped into the Iraq war we could >>> build the >>> specialized equipment needed to create the great pyramids >>> and hire the >>> smaller labor force needed to complete it, technology isn't >>> the problem just >>> logistics and money and carefull planning would take care of that. >>> >>> >>> > > The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were >>> > >built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how >>> everything >>> > >was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and >>> quite a few people >>> > >like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things >>> were done. Our >>> > >computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, >>> not needed for >>> their >>> > >society (in our crude forms)... >>> > >>> > Says who? If an global EMP pops all of the 486+ machines, >>> but the older >>> > tech survives, it would be a lot more important for >>> people to not have to >>> > take an extra 50 years to figure it out again. >>> >>> A Global EMP would shut down the entire industrial world, >>> everything of >>> importance is powered buy chips faster then a 486 at some >>> critical point in >>> the system. Where would you even start rebuilding and would >>> it be built the >>> same way it was? >>> >>> > Do I have a historical reference to this? Sure. >>> > >>> > Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* >>> the Earth was >>> round >>> > and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to >>> that knowledge >>> was >>> > unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again >>> thought the >>> world >>> > was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had >>> they access to the >>> > Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd >>> bet they kept >>> > their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. >>> advances (or wars >>> > averted) would have been possible. >>> >>> The Roman world collapsed because of barbarian invasion and >>> the aftermath of >>> 100's of years of illiterates running their small chunk of >>> land followed by >>> religion as government (burning people as heretics if they >>> even mentioned >>> the world was flat). That is a problem with society and the role of >>> religion, not with archives (same church that doesn't >>> believe in evolution >>> TODAY). >>> >>> >>> > > but a few people will be putting the puzzle >>> > >together just to see what we did and why and alot of >>> people will be >>> > >interested in reading and contemplating the >>> archeologists findings. It >>> > >doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic >>> things we do in >>> life >>> > >that are so obvious to us and never documented will >>> puzzle the hell out >>> of >>> > >people 1000 years from now. >>> > >>> > Yea, and if (once again) they think the world is flat & >>> the moon is made >>> of >>> > green cheese, it'll be one hell of a step *backwards* for >>> mankind! Why >>> > should we relegate our progeny to generations of >>> ignorance due to our lack >>> > of planning? >>> >>> Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a >>> global nuclear >>> war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you >>> were talking >>> about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever >>> happened? >>> >>> >>> > Laterz, >>> > Roger "Merch" Merchberger >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >>> > zmerch@30below.com >>> >>> From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Sep 23 09:18:00 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > And a properly configured xterm has a properly functioning keyboard. > Given the choice between the two emulators, I'd much rather use E11, > but as a hobbyist that can't afford a full version of E11, I tend to > use SIMH for most things. SIMH also has the advantage of running on > my Mac, which is good since these days I rarely have another Unix box > up and running. I use both, but then again, I have a full license for E11. I do most of my PDP-11 work on E11(/DOS/Win32DOS) and use SimH as an emulated CVAX mostly. Again, mostly under Win32DOS. SimH sucks in the sense that it doesn't do full-spec (exact) CPU and device emulation, and I dont think it ever will, but then again, it is more portable, and supports (a lot) more host platforms, so that is one of its pluses. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 09:26:04 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16722.56572.885000.205135@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: >>>> Do you know why a bi-quinary encoding was used instead of the >>>> more obvious 8-4-2-1 BCD encoding scheme? David> Possible answers.... David> A) It matches an Abacus... David> B) It matches (some?) nixie style tubes? David> C) It is just a really cool word? David> D) It is a great stumper for Geek-Jeopardy? David> [actually I blieve the answer to be "B" with a touch of "A"] That doesn't sound right; a Nixie has 10 wires, one per digit, plus a common wire. A possible answer: because the logic to do add or multiply is simpler in biquinary than in BCD? You'd have to do the equations and synthesize the logic to check that. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 23 09:37:27 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 07:40 AM 9/23/2004, you wrote: > >> I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) >> that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal >> adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full >> add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of is the >> Wang VS, which came standard with support for 'packed decimal' data, and >> even floating-point decimal. The Wang VS instruction set was very >> similar to the IBM 360/370, even the packed decimal data format was the >> same. > > > > DEC PDP11/23 CPU has sockets for 2 extra chips (40 pin DIPS). > > One is hardware floating point. This is fairly common. > > The other for a CIS - Commercial Instruction Set with full set of > decimal instructions as you list. The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw data. Honestly, though, I don't think I've ever run a job on the /03 that touched the CIS. Doc From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Sep 23 09:58:57 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: Maybe we should realize that the "unimportant" stuff may really tell people in the future a lot about us. It's amazing what can be discovered from unintentionally discarded stuff. How are we to know what was so commonplace that nobody saved it. For example the following is a reference to archeology and digging up old privys. http://www.sha.org/ha34ca.htm#springcon I remember all of the computer cards I punched and then used to record phone messages. I don't have one left today. How many Fortran coding sheets do you still have? Mine are gone. I still have a couple of greenbar printouts. If I try to describe them to my kids they don't understand. Their grandchildren will wonder what they were needed for. Thanks Mike From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 10:09:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > I think I've got one. Or at least, I've got a weirdish Wyse PC. The > > processor is on an ISA card that also has the keyboard connector, which is > > a modular phone plug type. Weird. > > I think I used one of those machines as well, but I don't think it is the > PC+. This weird thing is a desktop machine with the same footprint of a > normal XT, but is only about 2 inches high. The innards are very clever - I've got one of those also. The one I mention above is about half the width of a normal PC/XT, but otherwise is a full-height box. It may have originally been some shade of white or gray or beige but it's yellowed now. > in that pizza box they managed to put a custom motherboard (I recall it > uses 4 x 16K DRAMs, rather than the industry standard 1 x 64K chips), > spaces for a half height floppy and a half height hard disk, a power > supply with a tiny little fan (very powerful, however), and still have > space for two full size ISA cards. I never looked inside. I found it years ago at a thrift store and bought it only because it was made by Wyse and was odd. > The tube supplied with the unit was also very odd - a normal looking Wyse > thing, very similar to their terminals, but the phosphor (green) was very > long persistance. In an absolutely dark room, you could read the last text > on the screen 20 minutes (yes, minutes) after the thing was shut off. I don't think I ever got a monitor with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 10:35:09 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> It's amazing what can be discovered from unintentionally >>> discarded stuff. How are we to know what was so >>> commonplace that nobody saved it. >>> For example the following is a reference to archeology and >>> digging up old privys. >>> >>> http://www.sha.org/ha34ca.htm#springcon If anyone suggests that we should therefore archive our current privys (or their contents!) then I am out of here!!!!! >>> >>> I remember all of the computer cards I punched and then >>> used to record phone messages. I don't have one left today. Still have one carton on un-punched cards.. >>> >>> How many Fortran coding sheets do you still have? Mine are >>> gone. I still have a couple of greenbar printouts. One packet each of about 10 different types of coding forms... >>> >>> If I try to describe them to my kids they don't understand. >>> Their grandchildren will wonder what they were needed for. Most under 15 yearolds, to not what it means to "Dial" a phone. Have some fun. Give a (average) 12 year old a working rotary phone and ask them to call a friend. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 10:37:04 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: FW: Byte collection going to the block. Message-ID: I am going to be selling off a collection of Byte magazines [they are going to e-bay thiss weekend]. The collection is complete [to the best of my knowledge] for 1983 thru 1986. There are also 20+ issues from the early-mid 1990's. If any is interested and wants to make a reasonable offer (all offers will NOT include shipping), this is your chance..... David Sayville, NY From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 10:30:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: <1095911239.3827.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16722.60409.845000.108562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 19:08, William Donzelli wrote: >> > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > >> DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! >> >> If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one >> of them. Tom> I don't see this page as a need to 'return to decimal hardware' Tom> so much as people really need to consider accuracy and precision Tom> et al in arithemetic systems. Tom> These are turing-derived machines, after all, and can do decimal Tom> arithmetic when we want them to. And indeed they usually do, when you write in Cobol. paul From cb at mythtech.net Thu Sep 23 10:30:46 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text Message-ID: >I think I've got one. Or at least, I've got a weirdish Wyse PC. The >processor is on an ISA card that also has the keyboard connector, which is >a modular phone plug type. Weird. I had one of those. I think it was a 386 (might have been a 286), I know it was a Wyse. It was a full height desktop case, but only about half as wide as an AT/XT. The processor was on an ISA card, and the keyboard socket was an RJ-12 connector. I never had a matching keyboard, all I had was an adaptor to go from the RJ-12 to a regular din-5 AT style keyboard. I know you needed a special disk to configure the BIOS. I kept a copy of the floppy taped inside the case so I didn't have to hunt around for it if I made any changes. I still have the keyboard adaptor. I may have other parts from the machine, but I'm not sure. I might have kept the processor ISA card because it was interesting, but I know the machine on a whole was junked. I likely still have a copy of that setup disk somewhere as well. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 10:27:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > You can see pictures of people and places and things from 1000 years ago, > its called art, architecture, and artifacts. One of the reasons people are You are clearly not understanding where I'm coming from. Yes, that's all fine and dandy, but in most instances, artwork is either too ideal or too abstract to capture the otherwise "insignificant" nuances of daily life that a photograph captures. Look at all the photos in your collection. How many of them are worthy for public display in a gallery? Probably not a lot. But, they say a hell of a lot about your personal life, the world you lived in, its culture, its inhabitants, etc., PARTICULARLY WHAT'S IN THE BACKGROUND. THAT'S what I'd like to see from 1000 years ago. Not the stuff that people posed for, but the stuff that people, going about their daily lives, were doing while they were unwittingly captured to paper. > so interested in the past is because of the little information that has > survived plus their need to learn things nobody else knows. I have read and > seen lots of pictures on ancient Greece but nothing beats climbing up the > road to the Acropolis to see it yourself even if it is a shell of what it > really looked like ages ago. Minus all the people, the original facade, basically all of the context. > Same with standing on the center stone of a > 1000+ year old amphitheater that the ancient storytellers used for famous > plays. I would love to climb an Inca ruin someday and look out into the > countryside for miles an miles and ponder what drove the religious people to > offer human sacrifices on the very spot you stand on. I have done this, and while the experience was amazing in and of itself, it was filled with fellow modern day human beings all trumbling around wondering the same things as I was. Inifinitely more could be learned about those places if photographs existed. They would tell infinitely more about the place than what we know from archaeology study. > I mentioned the finger paintings because every married friend I knew with > kids loved to show off those finger paintings on their refrigerator to > anybody within eyesight of them, and I could care less. Unless its your kids > painting you really don't care. If everybody archived those (which they > would since it meant something to them) would anybody ever bother looking at > them in 1000 years? OF COURSE. > There is such a thing as too much information, sensory > overload. If enough material survives from today so that people from 1000 > years from now are a little curious about us then that is good. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your main argument is that if there's no challenge in learning about our past then it won't be worthwhile to do so? > Let the archeologists dig in our trash pits to see what we read, ate, > tools we used, fashion we wore, books we read etc. If we lay everything > out for them (assuming they can make heads or tails out of it) there is > no mystique to it, nothing to ponder, no need to dig up the past and to > see for themselves what it was all about. And this is bad...why? If we have the tools to let our descendents know every facit of our current lives, wouldn't that be better than them taking what clues they have and fabricating some great story or myths around them? For all we know, everything we know about ancient cultures could be wrong in some significant way, biased by our fantasies and our penchant for abscribing greatness to things of old that are larger than ourselves and that we do not understand properly. > The best thing is for people to read our history from the victors side > and then do dig up the vanquished to see what really happened. What are we going to learn from digging up bones that wouldn't better inform us by way of photographs? > People always talk about Atlantis because its something mythical > to search for, if it was documented 100% nobody would care, it would be like > reading 10 years on income tax forms. Save what we think is important and > let other generations go dig up what they think was important about us. Well, perhaps they wouldn't care AS MUCH, but to compare an ancient civilization to income tax forms is a bit...odd. > I really think people here collect computers because deep inside it means > something to them, not because they want to preserve it for others. Do you Well, in my case I can tell you that you are wrong. I have around 2000 computers in my collection now. Most of them mean nothing to me personally. In fact, I question my sanity on a weekly basis as to why I am putting myself through this. The answer is always that it is for future generations. This is not some idealistic bullshit that I made up to make myself feel better or to seem impressive to other people. It is really the reason why I am doing this. > really want to document every single thing we treasure about a specific > machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could just look > it up as needed Well why the hell not!?!?!? > or do you really wish something important was forgotten > from the archive so that somebody decides to find one, put it together, and > find out what the hunk of metal really does? You're a real saddist, you know that? There will always be mysteries to be solved. Why would you want to create unneccesary challenges for people in the future to solve? We have the means and the foresight now, today, to preserve information for future generations so that they don't have to put any guesswork into it and get things absolutely wrong. If you want to create historical challenges for future generations, take a pair of your finest underwear, a banana peel, some pencil shavings, a McDonald's Happy Meal prize, a couple books of any random topics, a few coins, a drill bit, three sticks of gum, and a toothbrush, put them in a lead box, and bury them six feet deep in your backyard. In the meantime, please keep any documentation and software you have with your old computers so they don't get separated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 10:34:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <009801c4a138$3df51950$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Wow, so you're arguing that we should lose things so that those that do > > remain will be more interesting?! > > No, I mean describe the Commodore 64 (as an example) enough so that somebody > might be interested enough to go dig one up and be able to repair it as > needed to run it. If we saved every C64 in mint condition so that people > 1000 years from now are tripping over them still, nobody will want to use > one (just like people here today don't even want to look at a common 486 PC > running windows 3.11, but will fall all over themselves to get parts for > machines that are not common). Time along with apathy by the next > generations will end up loosing what we hold dear to us, our job is to leave > enough clues and tell a good enough story that future generations will want > to know more. I don't remember advocating keeping every Commodore 64 or every 486 PC perfectly preserved. We were talking about the value of having photographs from 1000 years ago. There is a huge difference. > > > Do you > > > really want to document every single thing we treasure about a > > > specific > > > machine to the Nth degree so somebody even 20 years from now could > > > just look > > > it up as needed, > > > > Well, yes! > > What a boring world that will be, like playing an old game you never seen > with the complete walkthrough in your hands never having to figure anything > out on your own. You're comparing the importance of our cultural heritage and history to Zork? > > I find this idea really strange. So we should intentionally leave > > puzzles of the present for the future to decode?! > > Yes why not, give them all the pieces and hopefully a few people will put > the puzzle together and test it out. People today have no reason to build > egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our > present technology. The Egyptians did leave alot of records on how they were > built and organised but archeologists are still not 100% sure how everything > was done and spend time and effort figuring it out and quite a few people > like reading about the finds and new ideas on how things were done. Our > computers are going to be the pyramids of the 3000's, not needed for their > society (in our crude forms) but a few people will be putting the puzzle > together just to see what we did and why and alot of people will be > interested in reading and contemplating the archeologists findings. It > doesn't have to be intentional. Some of the most basic things we do in life > that are so obvious to us and never documented will puzzle the hell out of > people 1000 years from now. But what is the value in leaving such puzzles for future generations, if only to give them something to amuse themselves by? Will there not be word jumbles or crossword puzzles in the future? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 10:40:14 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion References: Message-ID: <16722.61022.428000.250406@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Ok, I am reading the RSTS/E 7.0 system generation manual.. and I Ron> am looking at my existing simh hard disk files and what may be Ron> available.. I can't seem to find information for RSTS as to what Ron> it calls it's disk drives.. Ron> I have two RL01 images which RSTS calls DL0: and DL1:, and Ron> DSKINT and HARDWR see them also as RL and they seem to have 2MW Ron> of capacity. I can have other kinds of disks, for instance Ron> RMO3 simh=RP RSTS=???? DSKINT/HARDWR=RR Capacity=33mw Ron> Ten times the size but what does RSTS call them? Ron> I would like to find a table/list that shows all the different Ron> disk models and what RSTS calls them. Can anyone point me to Ron> the proper manual? You mean it isn't in the Sysgen manual? Strange. Here goes: RC11 DC RF11 DF RS03/04 DS RK05 DK RK06/07 DM RL01/02 DL RP02/03 DP RM02/03/05/80, RP04/05/06/07 DB and DR MSCP DU MSCP appeared fairly late, V8.0 I think but I don't remember exactly. DB and DR both refer to Massbus moving head disks. Until V9.0, there were somewhat odd rules about mixing them on a single controller; the details should be in the book. Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" drives on a single RH11/RH70. If you want both, put them on separate controllers. If you do that, then the RM drives will be called DR, and the RP04... drives will be DB. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 10:43:22 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <16722.61210.140000.447204@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Donoghue writes: Jim> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 22:08, William Donzelli wrote: >> > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that > >> DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! >> >> If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one >> of them. Jim> I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM Jim> mainframes) that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I Jim> don't mean 'decimal adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full Jim> add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of Jim> is the Wang VS, which came standard with support for 'packed Jim> decimal' data, and even floating-point decimal. The Wang VS Jim> instruction set was very similar to the IBM 360/370, even the Jim> packed decimal data format was the same. VAX and PDP11 (with the CIS option) for starters. paul From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 10:39:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <00c301c4a143$6778fe80$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a global nuclear > war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking > about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever > happened? Asteroids don't explode. They impact. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 10:49:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Maybe we should realize that the "unimportant" stuff may really tell > people in the future a lot about us. That is exactly the point. I think someone already made the argument that if we intentionally leave stuff behind for future generations to "know" about us it may well be biased towards a more "ideal" representation of who we want to be rather than who we really are. Or maybe the argument was that if we had a limited amount of space to archive stuff we would only put into it the more important things, and the mundane would be left out. At any rate, the important things of the past are usually what we find today anyway, since that is what people usually put the most time and effort into preserving. If upon everyone's death they took all their personal papers and photographs and archived them in some place, that would be really useful to future generations. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 10:56:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <16722.62009.812000.62333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Doc" == Doc Shipley writes: Doc> Ed Kelleher wrote: >> DEC PDP11/23 CPU has sockets for 2 extra chips (40 pin DIPS). >> >> One is hardware floating point. This is fairly common. >> >> The other for a CIS - Commercial Instruction Set with full set of >> decimal instructions as you list. Doc> The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a Doc> couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both Doc> those machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming Doc> raw data. Doc> Honestly, though, I don't think I've ever run a job on the /03 Doc> that touched the CIS. I would assume that Cobol and (possibly) RPG would have an option to use CIS if available, but no other language is likely to do so. There was a DEC internal prototype of an 11/70 with CIS added; it was called 11/74 I believe (not to be confused with the SMP machine also referred to as 11/74 that the RSX development team used). Apparently it was canceled shortly before it was ready to ship. Nasty rumors claimed that this was because it was outperforming the 11/780 in every way; I don't know how valid that might be. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 11:13:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <16721.55802.43156.462532@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16721.59795.51536.261300@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1095894887.3864.61.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16722.63036.346400.146873@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 14:07, Paul Koning wrote: >> Or perhaps not yet. There are still machines in production use >> where byte does not mean 8 bits. Cyber mainframes, for example. Tom> What's a cyber byte size? 12 bits, the PPU word size. paul From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 11:43:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, chris wrote: > It was a full height desktop case, but only about half as wide as an > AT/XT. The processor was on an ISA card, and the keyboard socket was an > RJ-12 connector. I never had a matching keyboard, all I had was an > adaptor to go from the RJ-12 to a regular din-5 AT style keyboard. If I ever got the keyboard it has since been misplaced. > I still have the keyboard adaptor. I may have other parts from the > machine, but I'm not sure. I might have kept the processor ISA card > because it was interesting, but I know the machine on a whole was junked. > I likely still have a copy of that setup disk somewhere as well. It was on the verge of being scrapped but then I thought over it and decided to keep it...for now. So in the event that I decide to keep it as part of the odd dead PC group, I'd like to trade you for the keyboard adaptor and setup disk (if you have it). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Thu Sep 23 12:02:42 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text Message-ID: >So in the event that I decide to keep it as >part of the odd dead PC group, I'd like to trade you for the keyboard >adaptor and setup disk (if you have it). I have pinouts for the adaptor on my web site (). Pretty trivial to make. I have no idea if the one I have is a real Wyse adaptor, or just something a previous owner built. It looks a little amature to be a real Wyse part and has no part numbers on it. Next time I am at my storage garage, I'll take a look for the setup disk. Or, if you need/want it sooner, just pester me to go look for it. If I find it, I can send you an image of it (the one I have is also not a Wyse original). -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 12:02:20 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923115749.04d80070@pc> At 10:27 AM 9/23/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >You're a real saddist, you know that? Yes, he's quite sad. :-) >If you want to create historical challenges for future generations, take a >pair of your finest underwear, a banana peel, some pencil shavings, a >McDonald's Happy Meal prize, a couple books of any random topics, a few >coins, a drill bit, three sticks of gum, and a toothbrush, put them in a >lead box, and bury them six feet deep in your backyard. It's hard enough (and quite entertaining) to try to understand a contemporary culture unfamiliar to your own even when you're in it, walking around... that's why we like to travel. Pounds? Quid? This ain't lemonade! A tremendous amount of historical culture has been lost because it was made of wood, fiber, leather or bamboo. How much will be lost because it was "saved" on a cheapo CD-R? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Sep 23 12:16:27 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Byte collection going to the block. Message-ID: I am going to be selling off a collection of Byte magazines [they are going to e-bay thiss weekend]. The collection is complete [to the best of my knowledge] for 1983 thru 1986. There are also 20+ issues from the early-mid 1990's. If any is interested and wants to make a reasonable offer (all offers will NOT include shipping), this is your chance..... David Sayville, NY From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 23 12:16:14 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Bitsavers archive mirror -> modems In-Reply-To: <200409111700.i8BH033c001070@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200409111700.i8BH033c001070@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 9/11/04, cctalk-request@classiccmp.org wrote: >p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >modem technology daily? Yo. (And that has nothing to do with how late this response is :-) .) Ethernet at the office, but analog modem at home. Not audio, the phone cable plugs straight into the modem board on the PowerBook 3400, which admittedly isn't on topic... -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 08:28:23 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Update on Don Maslin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923081822.04f3fbd8@pc> At 12:57 PM 9/22/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > She said they already took 5 computers to recycling but >she didn't think they were anything of concern as her computer savvy >nephew was the one who chose them and felt they weren't old or valuable or >anything. There's the nub of the problem. Without Don's advice, we have no idea what was on those hard drives. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 08:56:44 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095903056.3864.232.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> <1095903056.3864.232.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923085508.04f6bb10@pc> At 08:30 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote: >Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps, the only honest scheme >we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for >a while! And there's been plenty of science fiction on this topic, too. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 08:26:15 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Training Manual In-Reply-To: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923082351.04f6b9c8@pc> At 01:35 AM 9/22/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >PS: to John Foust (I think it was) that politely reminded me some time >ago of the obvious fact that JPEGs are lossy. I did everything in TIFF >format, but my browser (konqueror) would not load TIFF images! [..] So >I had to convert to JPEG, sigh. I have the TIFFs should I stumble upon a >solution. Could have been, I have no memory - but it's something I'd likely tell someone. If your image-converting program is smart, it will let you use a 0..255 grey palette for a GIF. If it's true line-art with no greys, it'll have better compression with almost any palette that has a black and a white in it. And I'm extremely jealous of that computer. :-) It gives me flashbacks to glorious old '50s junk I'd find in dumpsters or auctions or rummage sales and disassemble. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 08:34:59 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923083221.04f6b568@pc> At 06:32 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote: >I imagine something like a National Archive where every citizen was >allocated 6 cubic inches of deep vault, environmentally controlled >permanent storage plus indexing service, written into the U.S. >Constitution as an amendment. A 1/4" stack of 4x6" fiche. Sounds like the salt-mine sorts of data safety centers I've heard of - but I have no idea how much they cost. With a standard box size and weight limits, it could be quite automated and roboticized. Like NetFlix, but for safe off-site storage. Put a barcode on a box, it gets delivered to the site, the robots take it from there. Reverse to get your stuff back. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 23 08:51:58 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> References: <00a901c49f65$89d4bb70$0500fea9@game> <1095728146.5051.81.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040921034448.04a8c0d0@pc> <1095895973.3864.96.camel@fiche.wps.com> <005001c4a106$59c56180$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923083645.04f6bb10@pc> At 07:43 PM 9/22/2004, Teo Zenios wrote: >A thousand years from now nobody is going to care about what 99.999% of the >population did during their lives. Unless you made some major contribution >to society (which would most likely be archived by your generation) or were >a figure that seen something major (also documented) who will ever look your >information up? Aldo Leopold wrote that "the first step in intelligent tinkering is to save the pieces." Humans have never tired of remembering their history. Technology gives us some new ways to do it in far better fidelity than a story repeated around a campfire or words scribbled on a page. I have a few minutes of movies of relatives taken in the 1920s. Before that, only a few static pictures, a few letters, a diary or two. Would I like more? You bet. One of my most fascinating relatives circa 1900 was a bit of a black sheep and she's practically erased from the family history, yet she's the one I'd like to know the best. And it was only from researching her and discovering a long-lost relative still in the same neighborhood that we found that movie from the 20s. Heck, there's been many times I'd wished I'd kept a better journal so I can figure out my own life, never mind letting my g-g-g-son learn more about me. Yes, 99.999% of what I have on disk would probably be considered useless in 30 years, much less 300. But who knows what part they'd want to see? I'll save a few of my kids' actual finger-paintings and probably digital-camera the rest, so I can flip through it someday. As Ben Franklin said, three moves equals one fire. Live a long life, move a few times, need to consolidate to move cross-country or across an ocean, give some away - presto, a lot of stuff disappears. (Which gets me to the topic of my next big rant for this list, which is about the rate of accumulation and the madness of collecting.) We are technologically so close to being able to record an entire human life on video. If there's a good way to reasonably permanently store a recording like that - wow. That literally changes history. - John From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Sep 23 12:30:23 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: In a message dated 9/23/04 1:05:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, teoz@neo.rr.com writes: Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was round > and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to that knowledge was > unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again thought the world Actually it was ethe Egyptians who calculated the diameter of the world and knew it was round. And the Library in Alexandra had over 400,000 books covering the knowledge and technology of the time. 600 to 300 BC was a real high point in civilization with a real understanding of the world and technology. The Greeks adopted much of the Egyption technology. The Mediterainian area even had geared differential chronometers for navigation. It was the Romans who burned the library and did not care about loseing the technology. Their technology was war and the were very successful at it. The world before the Romans was much more stable and understood. It was Western Civilization (based on the Romans) that really brought Civilization down from its high point. And is still doing it. Paxton Astoria, Oregon PS: I think it is the failure of the electrical systems due to virus attacks that will bring our civilization down from it's high point. With so much information in electronic format it will be similar to the burning of the library in Alexandra with much loss of technology. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Sep 23 03:26:36 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:39:49 PDT." Message-ID: <200409230826.JAA17939@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > I would like to find a table/list that shows all the different disk > models and what RSTS calls them. > Can anyone point me to the proper manual? Try http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/ or http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rstsdoc/rsts-doc-v80/ -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 23 12:28:42 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: Doc Shipley "Re: Decimal V Binary??" (Sep 23, 7:37) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 23 2004, 7:37, Doc Shipley wrote: > The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a > couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those > machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw data. I've never seen one of those. What's it like? Are you sure you're not thinking of the EIS/FIS chip? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 23 12:55:31 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <006101c4a196$8500e050$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 11:39 AM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Who says its not going to happen anyway, you think after a global nuclear > > war or large asteroid explosion (back to the EMP wave you were talking > > about) we will start making iPods and PS2's again like nothing ever > > happened? > > Asteroids don't explode. They impact. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 13:00:15 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Training Manual References: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040923082351.04f6b9c8@pc> Message-ID: <16723.3887.610301.246070@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 01:35 AM 9/22/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> PS: to John Foust (I think it was) that politely reminded me some >> time ago of the obvious fact that JPEGs are lossy. I did >> everything in TIFF format, but my browser (konqueror) would not >> load TIFF images! [..] So I had to convert to JPEG, sigh. I have >> the TIFFs should I stumble upon a solution. John> Could have been, I have no memory - but it's something I'd John> likely tell someone. John> If your image-converting program is smart, it will let you use John> a 0..255 grey palette for a GIF. If it's true line-art with no John> greys, it'll have better compression with almost any palette John> that has a black and a white in it. GIMP is an excellent program for this sort of thing, and it's free. It even does GIF. PNG does this well also. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 13:15:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <16723.4796.532933.709957@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Innfogra" == Innfogra writes: Innfogra> Actually it was ethe Egyptians who calculated the Innfogra> diameter of the world and knew it was round. And the Innfogra> Library in Alexandra had over 400,000 books covering the Innfogra> knowledge and technology of the time. 600 to 300 BC was a Innfogra> real high point in civilization with a real understanding Innfogra> of the world and technology. The Greeks adopted much of the Innfogra> Egyption technology. The Mediterainian area even had geared Innfogra> differential chronometers for navigation. Hm, I'd love to see a reference for that. (What's a "differential" chronometer?) My understanding is that the first recorded measurement of the earth's size was done by Eratosthenes, a Greek living in Alexandria; I wouldn't call him an Egyptian. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 13:22:21 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <16723.5213.90097.769379@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: Pete> On Sep 23 2004, 7:37, Doc Shipley wrote: >> The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a >> couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those >> machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw >> data. Pete> I've never seen one of those. What's it like? Are you sure Pete> you're not thinking of the EIS/FIS chip? The PDP11 architecture handbook says CIS was an option on the Micro/PDP-11, the 11/23-plus, the 11/24, and the 11/44. (Hm, I had forgotten about the 11/44...) Micro/PDP-11 seems like another name for 11/23. But elsewhere (in the intro) it also shows the LSI11/2 as a machine with CIS option. That's the 11/03, I believe. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 13:24:20 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <006101c4a196$8500e050$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <16723.5332.535833.771551@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Teo" == Teo Zenios writes: >> Asteroids don't explode. They impact. Teo> Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Teo> Tunguska explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that Teo> behaved just like a nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, Teo> heatwave, shockwave, radiation). That's not right. Heat and energy and shockwave, yes. A big rock coming in at high speed will do that. Radiation (i.e., ionizing radiation) -- not possible. There are some theories about it being an antimatter object -- *that* would give you radiation, for sure. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 23 14:10:34 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923085508.04f6bb10@pc> Message-ID: > At 08:30 PM 9/22/2004, you wrote: > >Our legacy will be our voluminous garbage dumps, the only honest scheme > >we have yet worked out to show what we have done. Cogitate that one for > >a while! > > And there's been plenty of science fiction on this topic, too. > That sounds interesting John. Do you know of any titles I could look into? g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 14:23:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts Message-ID: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> OK, you lot get my whinge for today :-) Does anyone else find that modern UIs with lots of pretty grahpics are actually getting harder to use? I'm not sure if it's just me or not! Having not used a recent Mac I can't comment there, but Windows and the more popular of the Linux desktop environments seem to be suffering the same fate in the last few years (and apps for both OS's): Clear and simple icons and buttons have been replaced with complex images (and the icons and buttons seem to have grown larger, taking up more screen space) Simple window borders have given way to windows with rounded corners, or complex colour fades and other things in the title bars. Backgrounds to UI components often seem to be images these days rather than plain colour. Colours seem to be chosen without any thought these days (as a contrived example, blue buttons with a slightly darker shade blue background panel) I just wonder if I'm alone in finding modern UI's cluttered with unnecessary visual features which distract the user from the task they're doing, presumably waste CPU and memory resources, and don't actually serve to make the OS/application any easier to use? Thoughts welcome - personally just because CPU power and memory is cheap I don't think it justifies making a user interface harder to use! In the case of interfaces where look is configurable, at least app vendors could choose the one that makes the product easier to use rather than the one filled with the most graphics... Anyway, rant over. Thankyou for tuning in :-) cheers, Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 23 14:30:36 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:27 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <0409230650.AA11546@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409230650.AA11546@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040923122944.X98153@shell.lmi.net> > > People today have no reason to build > > egyptian type pyramids, and we can build them if we wanted to with our > > present technology. On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > No, we cannot. Of course we can. With enough slaves, and the technology hidden at area 51. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 23 14:48:52 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <0409231948.AA12616@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Teo Zenios wrote: > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh Sense: -- quote from the book: -- Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak UFO targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. I accessed the site and found a pilot flying an aircraft. I saw that he was worried about something. Still a fairly novice viewer at the time, I rushed in and accessed the pilot's mind to find out what was worrying him. The pilot and all his passengers had been members of an extremely oppressive culture. They had rebelled against their government, but to no avail. The political leaders of that culture had given them the choice of dying or being allowed to leave and never return. They had elected to leave. They had been provided with the aircraft and allowed to leave without incident. But now that the pilot had found a place to land so they could start a new home for themselves, he realized that something was wrong with the aircraft. It had been fixed to self-destruct as soon as it tried to land anywhere. Someone in the oppressive regime had not been satisfied just to let them go. He wanted to kill them all. The pilot realized the problem, but could find nothing to do about it. He had called his wife and children into the cockpit to watch the landing, fully aware that they would probably die before the aircraft could land. I gave myself a move command to the problem, and found that it was a device that the saboteur had placed within the pilot's range of sight, but out of the pilot's reach. He sadistically wanted the pilot to know and understand before death what had been done to these freedom-seeking refugees and their families. The pilot tried everything he could think of to procure a safe landing. He went around the world several times (this was my first in-session clue that it was possibly an ET target). Going back up was out of the question, for some reason that I did not investigate because I was getting so sucked into the pilot and his panic. Now, every life on the ship depended on our skill and our creative ability to solve the problem. We finally figured out a way to bring the ship in for a landing. We hoped to be able to land on a mountain top that would be high enough to keep the explosive device from detonating. As we made final preparations for the landing, we turned to our family and assured them of our love, then got back to the job at hand. A moment later, the ship exploded in a great ball of fiery debris. Once I had gotten sucked into him, it was my family, too. I loved them and ached for them. I felt responsible for their lives and knew that my political actions and beliefs and my desire that they have freedom had caused this situation to exist. In the last moments of their lives, I realized how much they had suffered for my beliefs, and I blamed myself for their dying. Everyone I loved and cared about was to die, and it was my fault. When the ship exploded, I was thrown violently out of the session, and even fell out of the chair in which I had been sitting to do the viewing. I found out later that my task had been to find out what caused the Tunguska explosion, which flattened thousands of acres of land in southeastern Siberia, on June 30, 1908. [...] But, at the time of that particular session, I had no way of detoxing from the target. For almost two months after that session, no one in the office or at home dared to talk to me about any political subject or anything the government was doing. I became so violently opposed to any form of organized government and the oppression it wields that several times I became physically violent, just at the mention of any political subject. I could not listen to the news on the way to work or back home. I could not watch the news on TV for fear of getting so enraged that I was ready to yell and scream and throw things. Over the next two months or so, it slowly wore off, and I could again function normally. But to be totally honest, I found out about two years later, after I had developed the protocols for detoxification, that I still needed to detoxify from that session. I was still harboring very deep and angry resentment toward organized governments of any form, all because of the evil that had been done to the people and family "we" (the pilot and I) loved and cared about so dearly. -- end of quote -- To add a personal note to this story, even though I'm not a remote viewer (yet) and I have never accessed anyone else's mind, that is exactly how *I* feel about the government. Maybe I was that pilot in my previous life? Death in 1908, a little break, reincarnation in 1979, who knows, might be. MS From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 23 14:50:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <16722.62009.812000.62333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <16722.62009.812000.62333@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040923124721.P98153@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > I would assume that Cobol and (possibly) RPG would have an option to > use CIS if available, but no other language is likely to do so. IIRC, Only if explicitly specified in the ENVIRONMENT division. COBOL had extensive [but not often used] cross-platform capabilities by specifying in the source code both what kind of system was to compile it, AND what the target system was. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Sep 23 14:55:39 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <0409231955.AA12657@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred Cisin wrote: > With enough slaves, and the technology hidden at area 51. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I stand corrected on the last point, I meant that we cannot with officially acknowledged technology. As for slaves, don't forget that those secret government bases are not only repositories of clandestine technology, but are also ready to be used as concentration camps of the Fourth Reich. MS From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 23 15:10:01 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <0409231948.AA12616@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska > > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a > > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). > > This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer > whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh > Sense: > > -- quote from the book: -- > > Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned > before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak UFO > targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he > sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular > day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. > *cough*hooey!*cough* g. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 23 15:01:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040923160101.00894620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 23 15:12:59 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: HP test board? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040923161259.00897800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Something else that I found this morning. A circuit board about 3 x 5" square with four toggle switches and a push button switch. The toggle switches are labeled Freq (0,1), WREN (off,on), Hold (off,on) and DRCT (out,in). The pushbutton is labeled Step and next to it is a LED labeled TRK 00. On the other end of the board is long wire with a E-Z hook on the end of it. Next to where the wire is connected it says Connect to A5 TP9. The part number on the board is 98015-66501. On the back of the board is DE-37F connector. There are no other connectors or power jacks so apparently it gets it's power from the DUT. I'm guessing that it's used for testing some kind of HP disk drive. I think the HP 9885 disk drive uses the DD-37 connectors so I think it might be for that. Anyone know any more about it? Joe From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 23 15:11:54 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion Message-ID: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" drives on a single RH11/RH70. -- There was some discussion/questions from Bob Supnik about this on the simh developers list this week if mixed drives were or were not supported on the PDP11 operating systems. It sounded like they were not, so I'm surprised that they may have been on V9 and earlier. The problem comes about because the RM and RP massbus controllers have slightly different register sets. From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 23 15:16:14 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: 98015-66501 Message-ID: <20040923201614.7AA953C70@spies.com> google is your friend: http://www.com-com.co.uk/parts_4998.ihtml HP/Compaq 98015-66501 9885 ALIGNMENT CARD - 98015-66501 - 9801566501 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 23 15:40:12 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Metrabyte PC6362 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040923164012.008f0b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this is for? Roughly 6 x 8"square with LEDs for D0 through D7 and A0 through A5. Also LEDs for -15VDC, +15VDC and +5VDC. Six position DIP switch for setting the board address. Only connector is a 50 pin ribbon cable header. Keithly sells Metrabyte but neither Kiethly or Metrabyte will give you any information. Good companies NOT to do business with IMO. Joe From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 23 15:14:35 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040923221435.4ddf26f4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:23:01 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone else find that modern UIs with lots of pretty grahpics are > actually getting harder to use? I'm not sure if it's just me or not! It is not just you. I don't like (to be very polite) this modern GNOME, KDE or WinXP stuff. > I just wonder if I'm alone in finding modern UI's cluttered with > unnecessary visual features which distract the user from the task > they're doing, presumably waste CPU and memory resources, and don't > actually serve to make the OS/application any easier to use? You are not alone. I really can't understand all this eye candy garbage. Even on topic machines (e.g. early Alpha or SGI Indigo(2) R4k) are capable of delivering a fast X11 workstation. That useless GNOME, KDE or WinXP eye candy garbage can slow down a reasonible new and fast machine so that it is slower to use then a Indigo2 R4k4-150 with 4Dwm. Toyz for the Linuks kidz. Not my world. Long live fvwm2! (And fvwm2 is a quite bloated WM.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 23 15:39:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <00c301c4a143$6778fe80$0500fea9@game> References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game> <1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040923030151.051b7d80@mail.30below.com> <00c301c4a143$6778fe80$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1095971973.4215.3.camel@fiche.wps.com> My last post on the subject... You can't predict the future. You can't always know not only what will be "interesting", but you can't even know what things will mean. Entire worldviews and paradigms change. Read Thomas Kuhn's THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS, for example. It's really short. No matter what we save, or how we save it, it will embody biases, prejudices, preferences, etc. "Save everything" (sic) as an overriding philosophy goes towards preventing a lot of knowable and preventable storage/retreival problems. It's all moot anyways because there's clearly no will in my country to think about culture, anyways. You can do what you want. From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 23 15:58:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Training Manual In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040923082351.04f6b9c8@pc> References: <1095834932.7755.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040923082351.04f6b9c8@pc> Message-ID: <1095973112.4215.13.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 06:26, John Foust wrote: re: lossy images > If your image-converting program is smart, it will let you > use a 0..255 grey palette for a GIF. If it's true line-art with > no greys, it'll have better compression with almost any palette > that has a black and a white in it. I'm using the PBM tools, so I just made all the tiffs into pngs, which work fine, and they're uploading now. > And I'm extremely jealous of that computer. :-) It gives me > flashbacks to glorious old '50s junk I'd find in dumpsters or > auctions or rummage sales and disassemble. I feel lucky to have it, I can assure you. It's actually the perfect machine, though architecturally it's a bit bizarre and limited, it's solid state yet first-generation architecture still. The LGP-30 is far more complex, electrically and mechanically, plus it's 800 lbs! Other than the memory and Friden, the LGP-21 is just a bunch of transistors. It eats 300 watts from the local nuclear or coal station. (It really is a first generation arch, like the '30; arithmetic only order set, non-character-oriented, no index register, drum, serial, one accumulator, though it has hardware subroutine support (barely) with the R instruction.) From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 23 16:11:41 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... In-Reply-To: <16722.56572.885000.205135@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> <16722.56572.885000.205135@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1095973901.4215.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 07:26, Paul Koning wrote: > That doesn't sound right; a Nixie has 10 wires, one per digit, plus a > common wire. See below, scroll down to the bottom! http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets/Datasheets/Burroughs-catalog-918A/8.JPG From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 23 16:30:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <200409232130.OAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gene Buckle" > >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > >> Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska >> > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a >> > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). >> >> This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer >> whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh >> Sense: >> >> -- quote from the book: -- >> >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak UFO >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. >> >*cough*hooey!*cough* > >g. > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 16:31:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, chris wrote: > Next time I am at my storage garage, I'll take a look for the setup disk. > Or, if you need/want it sooner, just pester me to go look for it. If I > find it, I can send you an image of it (the one I have is also not a Wyse > original). There's no rush... :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 16:42:39 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> Message-ID: <16723.17231.993014.313654@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" Al> drives on a single RH11/RH70. Al> -- Al> There was some discussion/questions from Bob Supnik about this on Al> the simh developers list this week if mixed drives were or were Al> not supported on the PDP11 operating systems. It sounded like Al> they were not, so I'm surprised that they may have been on V9 and Al> earlier. Al> The problem comes about because the RM and RP massbus controllers Al> have slightly different register sets. No they don't. The RH11/RH70 is the same either way. What changes is the registers in the disks -- RP and RM disks are very similar but not identical. Working from memory now -- I believe the correct statement is that RSTS has always allowed mixing them on either of the two massbus controllers, for access within the OS. The place you run into issues, prior to RSTS 9.0, is when booting. Some vague memory says that your boot device (unit 0) on the primary massbus should be an RP04/5/6 and not an RM if you mix them. If you run RSTS 9.0 or later, mix at will and boot at will, it all works. paul From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 23 16:49:19 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <200409232130.OAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00e001c4a1b7$2e64c6a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > >From: "Gene Buckle" > > > >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > >> Teo Zenios wrote: > >> > >> > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska > >> > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a > >> > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). > >> > >> This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer > >> whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh > >> Sense: > >> > >> -- quote from the book: -- > >> > >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned > >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak UFO > >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he > >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular > >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. > >> > >*cough*hooey!*cough* > > > >g. > > > > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. > Dwight > > > I am glad I wasn't the only one wondering what Sokolov was smoking when he wrote that quote. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 16:50:02 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: > > > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html > > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. > > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design > work. Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-) And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead of metal: "Organic Pong"... Heh! J. From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 23 17:13:34 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1095977614.4215.50.camel@fiche.wps.com> > > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html Seems to me like a handful of opamps would be a lot easier. Not everything is best done digitally! It's just a bunch of triangles to solve. (It is an amazing construction, and the website works really well too.) From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Sep 23 17:37:31 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002e01c4a1bd$f0ea6300$0200a8c0@geoff> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1307810,00.html That's one of the articles , make your own mind up. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:56 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > At 05:56 AM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:20 AM > >Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > > > > >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >> > >> > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from > >Mr. > >> > Bush's backers. > >> > So who were you really voting for ? > >> > >> Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than you > >> think. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > >Festival > > > >Yes I know , the paper said that they're funding Nader because he pulls a > >lot of Democrat votes rather than Republican , thus swinging things Bush's > >way. > > Exit polls have CONSISTANTLY shown that Nader takes more votes away from > the Republican than from the Democrats. I've heard CLAIMS that the > republicans secretly finance Nader but I neve seen any proof and I don't > beleive the claims. > > Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 17:03:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> from "Jim Donoghue" at Sep 23, 4 07:40:20 am Message-ID: > I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) > that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal > adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full > add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of is the PDP11/44 CIS option supported packed decimal 'strings'. Didn't some VAXen do so as well? -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 17:42:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <0409231948.AA12616@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska > > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a > > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). > > This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer > whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh > Sense: That's total and complete bullshit. I know this for a fact because it was *I* who caused the explosion, not a silly spaceship! I hate people trying to take credit for my deeds. Pfeh! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 17:43:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040923160101.00894620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an > Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and > this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be > made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important > difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the > Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. My guess? A 320K RAM disk for the Apple ][. Did you get the interface card with it? I've got something similar. It may even be the same brand. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 17:18:38 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: HP test board? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040923161259.00897800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 23, 4 04:12:59 pm Message-ID: This is pure guesswork... > > Something else that I found this morning. A circuit board about 3 x 5" > square with four toggle switches and a push button switch. The toggle > switches are labeled Freq (0,1), WREN (off,on), Hold (off,on) and DRCT Freq 0,1 sounds like selecting the 2 frequencies for continuous 0's or continuous 1's on an FM (single density) disk. WREN == Write eneable Hold, I have no idea on. It's not HLD (Head Load), I trust. DRCT out,in is probably hrad movement direction > (out,in). The pushbutton is labeled Step and next to it is a LED labeled With STEP being to move the head one cylinder in that direction. > TRK 00. On the other end of the board is long wire with a E-Z hook on the And the LED's function is then obvious! > end of it. Next to where the wire is connected it says Connect to A5 TP9. > The part number on the board is 98015-66501. On the back of the board is Well, that part number would normally indicate it's the 1's board in an HP98015. Now, what that is I don't know > DE-37F connector. There are no other connectors or power jacks so > apparently it gets it's power from the DUT. I'm guessing that it's used If it is for the 9885, I don;t think there's power on the interface connector. Maybe the flying lead is a +5V pickup. > for testing some kind of HP disk drive. I think the HP 9885 disk drive uses > the DD-37 connectors so I think it might be for that. Anyone know any more Its was a DE37 just now... Since neither exist, I assume you mean DC37 (which is, indeed the connector used for the drive bus on the 9885) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 17:09:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> from "Jim Donoghue" at Sep 23, 4 07:40:20 am Message-ID: > I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) > that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal > adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full Not really want you're asking for, but I have a machine here (actually 2 diffeerent machines using the same processor) where the hardware is bit-serial for binary operatiosn, but does BCD operations 1 nybble at a time..... A simple puzzle : What machine is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 23 16:41:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 22, 4 11:21:10 pm Message-ID: > > In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? Old days???? The CGA supported 80*25 and 40*25 text modes. The MDA supported 80*25 only. > > I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in > several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it > this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton > Commander being one of them). > > Were these modes standard? No, the iBM cards could not do those. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 23 17:44:10 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: Paul Koning "Re: Decimal V Binary??" (Sep 23, 14:22) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <16723.5213.90097.769379@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <10409232344.ZM5520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 23 2004, 14:22, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: > The PDP11 architecture handbook says CIS was an option on the > Micro/PDP-11, the 11/23-plus, the 11/24, and the 11/44. (Hm, I had > forgotten about the 11/44...) Micro/PDP-11 seems like another name > for 11/23. But elsewhere (in the intro) it also shows the LSI11/2 as > a machine with CIS option. That's the 11/03, I believe. Yes, the MicroPDP-11 was a specifc range of models of 11/23, 11/73, et seq in BA23 and BA123 cabinets. The most common 11/03 was an LSI-11/2. The term LSI-11 refers to either the original set of boards including the M7264 which could be used to build a system, or more specifically to the M7264 KD11-F processor card. A PDP-11/03 is, strictly speaking, a DEC-packaged system, the early ones being an BA11-M box, or an 11V03 system in a BA11-N and with RX01 drives. LSI-11/2 is the later processor card, used in BA11-N boxes to make some 11V03 and 11T03 (with RL01 drives) systems. The reason I asked my question is just that I've never seen or heard of a CIS option for the 11/03, and I can't think where you'd put it. There are no spare sockets on the board and not nearly enough of the internal bus is brought out. Well, there's a spare socket on a basic M7264 (the original quad board) and on a basic M7270 (the later and more common LSI-11/2 dual-height board), but they're for the KEV11 (EIS/FIS) option. Most of the 11/03 processors I've seen have the KEV11 already fitted. It's also possible to add a Writable Control Store (KUV11) to an 11/03 (M7264) and that can hold user-defined microcode or a version of the EIS/FIS. AFAIK that only works with an LSI-11 (M7264), not an LSI-11/2, and anyway it's a quad-height board, not a MICROM chip (it has a cable that plugs into the socket usually occupied by the KEV11). I have both the DIGITAL Microcomputer Handbook (1976) that was released with the LSI-11 series, and the later Microcomputers and Memories Handbook (1982) which describe the 11/03, and neither mentions CIS, except for the 11/23-plus (in the 1982 handbook). The 1976 Handbook describes all the instructions, including the EIS and FIS, but not CIS. It also describes or lists various languages but not COBOL or DIBOL (which would have been its raison d'etre). I've also been told (by someone on the list) that the 11/03 processors don't have enough microcode address space for CIS, and that fits with what I know: CIS is BIG -- bigger than the all rest of the instruction set put together, including the floating point additions, on an 11/23. So, whilst willing to believe that CIS exists for an 11/03 if someone has it, I think something else is much more likely :-) Of course, if it does exist, I'd be very interested to know more about it! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 23 17:54:22 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Electromechanical Pong" (Sep 23, 21:50) References: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10409232354.ZM5564@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 23 2004, 21:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a > fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered > pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-) OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE and O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates off the shelf if you're rich enough. > And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead > of metal: "Organic Pong"... Ow! If you'd ever tried to build wooden gears that don't self-strip... Of course, you could go the whole hog and use disks with pegs in them, and a water wheel to power it, but you'd be in for a surprise when you find out how much energy it takes to turn such constructions :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 23 18:07:42 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska > > > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a > > > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). > > > > This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer > > whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh > > Sense: > > That's total and complete bullshit. I know this for a fact because it was > *I* who caused the explosion, not a silly spaceship! > > I hate people trying to take credit for my deeds. Pfeh! > Hey Sellam, where's your monocle and white persian cat? You can't take over the world without 'em ya know. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 15:21:06 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040923202106.90471.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> The one redeeming quality (at least of XP) is that you can easily turn OFF all that junk. My whole desktop and "theme" is very minimalist. That's a big part of the reason why I also use Opera instead of Internet Explorer; it's much more customizable in that I can turn all the non-browser crap off. --- Jules Richardson wrote: > OK, you lot get my whinge for today :-) > > Does anyone else find that modern UIs with lots of pretty grahpics are > actually getting harder to use? I'm not sure if it's just me or not! > > Having not used a recent Mac I can't comment there, but Windows and the > more popular of the Linux desktop environments seem to be suffering the > same fate in the last few years (and apps for both OS's): > > Clear and simple icons and buttons have been replaced with complex > images (and the icons and buttons seem to have grown larger, taking up > more screen space) > > Simple window borders have given way to windows with rounded corners, > or complex colour fades and other things in the title bars. > > Backgrounds to UI components often seem to be images these days rather > than plain colour. > > Colours seem to be chosen without any thought these days (as a > contrived example, blue buttons with a slightly darker shade blue > background panel) > > > I just wonder if I'm alone in finding modern UI's cluttered with > unnecessary visual features which distract the user from the task > they're doing, presumably waste CPU and memory resources, and don't > actually serve to make the OS/application any easier to use? > > Thoughts welcome - personally just because CPU power and memory is cheap > I don't think it justifies making a user interface harder to use! In the > case of interfaces where look is configurable, at least app vendors > could choose the one that makes the product easier to use rather than > the one filled with the most graphics... > > Anyway, rant over. Thankyou for tuning in :-) > > cheers, > > Jules > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 23 18:26:59 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <200409232326.QAA04677@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gene Buckle" > >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> >> > Teo Zenios wrote: >> > >> > > Scientists think an asteroid, comet, or meteorite cause the Tunguska >> > > explosion in Russia in the early 20th century that behaved just like a >> > > nuclear bomb does today (intense energy, heatwave, shockwave, radiation). >> > >> > This is not what happened. Lyn Buchanan, a very good remote viewer >> > whom I know fairly well, has told the real story in his book The Seventh >> > Sense: >> >> That's total and complete bullshit. I know this for a fact because it was >> *I* who caused the explosion, not a silly spaceship! >> >> I hate people trying to take credit for my deeds. Pfeh! >> > >Hey Sellam, where's your monocle and white persian cat? You can't take >over the world without 'em ya know. > >g. > > > Hi A famous man once said, "Your out on the plains of Wyoming and you hear hoof sounds. You probably shouldn't think zebras." ( I may have got the quote a little off but the sentiment is correct. ) Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 23 18:45:49 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <10409232354.ZM5564@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE > and O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates > off the shelf if you're rich enough. Why don't we just use one of the origins of computing engines as we know today - the woollen weaving engine. We just need to come up with a way of getting the shuttle to move between weaving stations :) w From list at saracom.com Thu Sep 23 21:29:26 2004 From: list at saracom.com (Keith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20040923192741.00a23030@mail.saracom.com> Hello, A friend gave me his first computer to go in my collection. Its a Challenger C4P. I do have the original manuals etc. And of course my friend for information. What I am looking for however is additional information, websites etc devoted to it. I have the cassette based version. The first question would be details on the floppy disk version. IE can I upgrade mine. If not, sources for programs for the cassette based unit. Also I remember a program to simulate the cassette player by using a PC with a sound card. Any one know if that one? Or should I just make wav files and use media player? For one thing, I would like a terminal emulation program for it. Thanks Max at From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 18:55:05 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... References: <200409232215.i8NMFonC064846@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000e01c4a1c8$bfe91070$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Don Lancaster's Decimal Counting Unit (1968) also used a bi-quinary circuit. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1968/Feb_1968_PE.htm Michael (top post) Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley > On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 07:26, Paul Koning wrote: > > > That doesn't sound right; a Nixie has 10 wires, one per digit, plus a > > common wire. > > See below, scroll down to the bottom! > > http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets/Datasheets/Burroughs-catalog-918A/8.JPG > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 23 19:04:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> Message-ID: <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" >> drives on a single RH11/RH70. The thing I was trying to remember about mixed drives and booting is described by this paragraph in the RSTS V9.0 Update Seminar document (page 2-7): Multiple RH controllers for disks (DB and DR) have always been supported by RSTS. The support for this has been improved in V9 by allowing the booting of disks on either controller regardless of drive type. Previously, there was a restriction if the same drives were on different controllers, you could only boot the one on the primary controller. So the answer for RSTS is (a) mixed drives are supported, (b) if you mix on both RP/RM massbus controllers, boot the primary unless you're running V9.0 or later. paul From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 23 19:21:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: <20040923221435.4ddf26f4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040923221435.4ddf26f4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sep 23, 2004, at 1:14 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Toyz for > the Linuks kidz. Not my world. Long live fvwm2! (And fvwm2 is a quite > bloated WM.) > -- > I always install blackbox... small, fast and I use a simple theme. and run lots of xterms! From aek at spies.com Thu Sep 23 19:45:50 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: OSI info pages Message-ID: <20040924004550.50E0E3C67@spies.com> http://my.execpc.com/~mspankus/osi/osi.html#Links is a good place to start. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 23 20:12:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific website (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20040923192741.00a23030@mail.saracom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Keith wrote: > What I am looking for however is additional information, > websites etc devoted to it. I have the cassette based http://www.vintage.org/links.php#159 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 21:12:48 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: C4P floppy issues In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20040923192741.00a23030@mail.saracom.com> Message-ID: > A friend gave me his first computer to go in my collection. > Its a Challenger C4P. I do have the original manuals etc. > And of course my friend for information. > > What I am looking for however is additional information, > websites etc devoted to it. I have the cassette based > version. The first question would be details on the > floppy disk version. IE can I upgrade mine. If not, > sources for programs for the cassette based unit. You might think that you could just add a floppy interface board and have a C4P-MF. Nope, afraid not. The floppy controller is integrated into the CPU card in the C4P-MF. That CPU card is a 505. On a non-MF C4P, the CPU is a 502. On the 502, instead of the floppy interface, there is Micro$oft 8K BASIC in ROM and the cassette port (the C4P-MF does NOT have a cassette port). One possibility to get cassette functionality on a C4P(non-MF) would be to hack up a 470 board... but you would then also have to re-do the monitor ROM, as the boot loader code in the C4P monitor (according to rumor) doesn't work anyway. Might have something to do with addressing conflicts with the cassette port. Finally, there are issues with the OS (usually OS-65D) expecting/not expecting to see BASIC in ROM. I think if it sees it, it figures that it is running on a C1P and you get funny results if you are not (keyboard issues maybe? I'd have to look through some old PEEK65s to check). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 21:20:13 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: C4P floppy issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > A friend gave me his first computer to go in my collection. > > Its a Challenger C4P. I do have the original manuals etc. > > And of course my friend for information. > > > > What I am looking for however is additional information, > > websites etc devoted to it. I have the cassette based > > version. The first question would be details on the > > floppy disk version. IE can I upgrade mine. If not, > > sources for programs for the cassette based unit. > > You might think that you could just add a floppy interface > board and have a C4P-MF. Nope, afraid not. The floppy > controller is integrated into the CPU card in the C4P-MF. > That CPU card is a 505. On a non-MF C4P, the CPU is a 502. > On the 502, instead of the floppy interface, there is Micro$oft > 8K BASIC in ROM and the cassette port (the C4P-MF does NOT have > a cassette port). One possibility to get cassette functionality ^^^^^^^^ Duh, should be "floppy"... (proof read _BEFORE_ you post, moron) > on a C4P(non-MF) would be to hack up a 470 board... but you > would then also have to re-do the monitor ROM, as the boot > loader code in the C4P monitor (according to rumor) doesn't > work anyway. Might have something to do with addressing conflicts > with the cassette port. Finally, there are issues with the > OS (usually OS-65D) expecting/not expecting to see BASIC in ROM. > I think if it sees it, it figures that it is running on a C1P > and you get funny results if you are not (keyboard issues maybe? > I'd have to look through some old PEEK65s to check). From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Sep 23 21:36:24 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 24, 04 00:45:49 am Message-ID: <200409240236.WAA05562@wordstock.com> And thusly Adrian Graham spake: > > > OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE > > and O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates > > off the shelf if you're rich enough. > > Why don't we just use one of the origins of computing engines as we know > today - the woollen weaving engine. We just need to come up with a way of > getting the shuttle to move between weaving stations :) > Oh my. That hurt. Cheers to the weaving words wrote, Bryan Pope From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 23 22:39:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <415396EA.1020900@mdrconsult.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 23 2004, 7:37, Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a >>couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those >>machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw data. > > > I've never seen one of those. What's it like? Are you sure you're not > thinking of the EIS/FIS chip? I was told it's a CIS module, but I don't have the processor in hand right now. If I don't end up in Albany next week, I'll get the part numbers off the chips. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 23 23:16:56 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <10409232344.ZM5520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <16723.5213.90097.769379@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <10409232344.ZM5520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <41539FB8.9000104@mdrconsult.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > The term LSI-11 refers to either the original set of boards including > the M7264 which could be used to build a system, or more specifically > to the M7264 KD11-F processor card. A PDP-11/03 is, strictly speaking, > a DEC-packaged system, the early ones being an BA11-M box, or an 11V03 > system in a BA11-N and with RX01 drives. LSI-11/2 is the later > processor card, used in BA11-N boxes to make some 11V03 and 11T03 (with > RL01 drives) systems. Errr, my 11v03 has RX02s, thank you. Although it's very possible they're an upgrade. That is without doubt the prettiest computer I ever owned. My G5 is close, but the PDP11V03-L beats it. :) > The reason I asked my question is just that I've never seen or heard of > a CIS option for the 11/03, and I can't think where you'd put it. > There are no spare sockets on the board and not nearly enough of the > internal bus is brought out. Well, there's a spare socket on a basic > M7264 (the original quad board) and on a basic M7270 (the later and > more common LSI-11/2 dual-height board), but they're for the KEV11 > (EIS/FIS) option. Most of the 11/03 processors I've seen have the > KEV11 already fitted. OK, I just logged into my linux box at home and looked on the inventory list. It's a DIBOL microm, and it's on the quad-height board; M7264-YB. I'm still going to lay eyeballs on the LSI-II when I get home, because the "CIS" thing is ringing bells. > So, whilst willing to believe that CIS exists for an 11/03 if someone > has it, I think something else is much more likely :-) Of course, if > it does exist, I'd be very interested to know more about it! Nah, it looks like it was just a brain fart. Doc From wpileggi at juno.com Fri Sep 24 00:43:19 2004 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: IBM PC/XT/AT, etc. material for sale/give-away/etc. Message-ID: <20040923.224356.494.676312@webmail01.lax.untd.com> Sadly, lost storage area(s) and forced to sell off PC related collection late spring. Thankfully went to appreciative guys around the world. Now finishing up, have a few items left of possible interest: IBM PC mfr. Early 1982, 2nd BIOS ver. BLACK power supply, all original. Manual. IBM XT mfr. January, 1984 (64-256). CGA/MONO/Floppy/20MB HDD/AST/640KB. Manual. IBM PC "B", mfr. May 1985. Case/Mobo/Power supply. Can stick in cards from list below. IBM CGA monitor, good. IBM Mono. monitor, decent/for test purposes. 2 83 key keyboards. Misc. Display Cards for PC/XT/AT - Paradise, Hercules, IBM. CGA to composite video breakout connector. Some other misc cards, drives. 2 IBM half-height 360Kb floppy drives in stack, as seen in late XT's. IBM PC DOS 2.1. IBM PC DOS 3.3 (multiple media formats AND versions). IBM BASIC 3.0 Reference manual with slipcase. IBM Service Information Manual. 3rd Edition, November, 1987. Very Cool. NORTON UTILITIES 6.01 (1992). Full boxed edition. NO floppy disks. DESQVIEW 386. Full boxed edition. 2 copies. +Additional Reference material. Hardware Maintenance and Service - (IBM) Proprinter X24E and Proprinter XL24E. Guide to Operations - Personal Computer - AT. (IBM) Technical Reference - Personal Computer - AT. (IBM) Binder/slipcase only. IBM clear vinyl floppy holder pages for manuals - IBM logo'd. A big thick handful of 5 1/4 inch floppies with misc. software/copies. Some NOS. Any interest - Please contact off list for details, photos. Insulting offers considered, rebuttals possibly offered. Conditions usually VG or better, and always working. Have experience and material to ship worldwide if so desired. Books can go media rate. My zip is 19001. Fedex usually cheapest for heavy/long distances. Bill ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! From wpileggi at juno.com Fri Sep 24 00:54:26 2004 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: WYSE computer setup disks Message-ID: <20040923.225503.494.676358@webmail01.lax.untd.com> I have a copy of the "WYSE 286" setup disk. At least that's how I marked it. 5 1/4 floppy - should still be good. ANybody want it? I liked those WYSE pizza boxes, they were pretty neat. Had 1 in service until 1995 or 96. Bill ________________________________________________________________ Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 24 01:54:48 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: Doc Shipley "Re: Decimal V Binary??" (Sep 23, 21:16) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> <4152DFA7.1050306@mdrconsult.com> <10409231828.ZM5239@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <16723.5213.90097.769379@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <10409232344.ZM5520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <41539FB8.9000104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <10409240754.ZM5875@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 23 2004, 21:16, Doc Shipley wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The term LSI-11 refers to either the original set of boards including > > the M7264 which could be used to build a system, or more specifically > > to the M7264 KD11-F processor card. A PDP-11/03 is, strictly speaking, > > a DEC-packaged system, the early ones being an BA11-M box, or an 11V03 > > system in a BA11-N and with RX01 drives. > Errr, my 11v03 has RX02s, thank you. Although it's very possible > they're an upgrade. Maybe, but they could be original. I only meant the early ones had RX01s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 24 05:17:09 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: Anybody remember these? Message-ID: <20040924101708.VFA14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I just received this manual: Science Fair SF-5000 ELECTRONIC COMPUTER by Rolf Lohberg PROGRAMMING MANUAL and Assembly Instructions Engineered For Science Fair Electronics - A Tandy Corporation Company Copyright 1971 by FRANCKH'SCHE VERLAGSHANDLUNG. KOSMOS Stuttgart, West Germany I had all but forgotten these things - in fact when they guy who gave it to me described it over the phone, I could not place it - but when I saw the picture on the cover I recognized it. This is the Radio Shack version of the Kosmos "Logikus". It is a small flat device with ten multi-position slider switches which move in and out of the front. At the back is a raised panel with ten lights which can illuminate various cards that you slide into the front of the panel. Along the top (in front of the panel) are many holes in which you insert wires to "program" the device. My making connections between the various switch elements and the lights, you can demonstrate fundamental logic concepts such as AND and OR. The manual includes a number of simple games and some basic mathmatical functions - it consists of 112 pages + covers. Aa timer permits, I will scan it an post it to my site. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Fri Sep 24 05:19:31 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:28 2005 Subject: dual anode nixies-was- all sorts of other stuff References: <20040922231352.74189.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com><16722.56572.885000.205135@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1095973901.4215.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <04dc01c4a21f$fbc58bd0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> The AN/USM-207 counter used these dual anode nixies. I've put a cct here of one of the counter/display sections- http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/BQ%20nixie%20cct.pdf Cheers Dave Brown, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 9:11 AM Subject: RE: bit-widths, was Re: HP Laserjet ..again.... > On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 07:26, Paul Koning wrote: > >> That doesn't sound right; a Nixie has 10 wires, one per digit, plus >> a >> common wire. > > See below, scroll down to the bottom! > > http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets/Datasheets/Burroughs-catalog-918A/8.JPG > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 05:42:57 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096022578.32008.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 00:45 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > > OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE > > and O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates > > off the shelf if you're rich enough. > > Why don't we just use one of the origins of computing engines as we know > today - the woollen weaving engine. We just need to come up with a way of > getting the shuttle to move between weaving stations :) I like it - Pong on a huge scale. "Godzilla Pong" :-) J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 05:57:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <10409232354.ZM5564@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409232354.ZM5564@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1096023454.32008.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 23:54 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 23 2004, 21:50, Jules Richardson wrote: > > pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-) > > OK, but you have to use proper graphited yarn instead of PTFE and > O-rings. Or use compressed air - you can buy the gates off the shelf > if you're rich enough. :-P All that brass might be slightly on the expensive side, too... > > And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing > > instead of metal: "Organic Pong"... > > Ow! If you'd ever tried to build wooden gears that don't self-strip... Well the loading's not great; much less than in a wooden-geared clock, say. Not much acual gearing needed either; it's mainly just levers. The complex bit is getting forward / reverse / off for the drive to the ball X and Y axis (off needed at start of game and when the ball's travelling in a straight line of course). A differential's probably the best bet there on each axis - lock the gear carrier to input and output shafts via a pair of clutches and you get forward, lock the gear carrier to the chassis and you get reverse, disengage everything and you get the 'off' state (providing the friction on the output shaft is high enough to overcome the friction in the diff) The simulated ball just travels on wheeled trucks set on a guide in each axis, so I wouldn't imagine friction would be that high at all. Whether bevel gears could be made out of wood is another matter! Oh, the insanity :-) cheers, Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Sep 24 06:27:28 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924072417.09b5ee00@192.168.0.1> At 05:50 PM 9/23/2004, you wrote: >Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. > >I was just thinking that it would be an interesting challenge to build a >fully mechanical version - no electrical parts whatsoever. Steam-powered >pong, that'd be different... "Babbage Pong", maybe... :-) > >And given the light loading involved, why not use wooden gearing instead >of metal: "Organic Pong"... Is the Museum of Automata still open in York (England)? Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this. I remember an archer that would pull an arrow out of his quiver, shoot it at a target, then retrieve the arrow and shoot again - all mechanical. Amazing stuff. But it's been a few years, and recently I couldn't find anything on the web about them. Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Sep 24 06:31:25 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <00e001c4a1b7$2e64c6a0$0500fea9@game> References: <200409232130.OAA04557@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924072908.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> At 05:49 PM 9/23/2004, you wrote: > > >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned > > >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak >UFO > > >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he > > >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular > > >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. > > >> > > >*cough*hooey!*cough* > > > > > >g. > > > > > > > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. > > Dwight > > > > > > > > >I am glad I wasn't the only one wondering what Sokolov was smoking when he >wrote that quote. I don't know. It could have happened that way. Ed K. :-) From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Sep 24 07:02:21 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Ed K. From AppleTO at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 08:25:40 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1047a6e6040924062557428c81@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:23:01 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone else find that modern UIs with lots of pretty grahpics are > actually getting harder to use? I'm not sure if it's just me or not! Yes, I find them harder to use and more distracting. If it weren't for an old Mac (circa 1992) which I keep on hand, I would get half of the work done. While you seem to point to busy eye-candy as a cause, I regard it as a symptom. The over configurability of user interfaces is another symptom. For example: Apple's web browser (Safari) has 11 menu options which determine which button bars are shown and which buttons are shown on them. This is on a drop down menu on the menu bar. Why does anyone need immediate control over those options? Oh, and Apple is noted, rightfully, for their refined user interfaces. I'm not even going to mention my opinion of skins. There are many other problems which contribute to complexity, but I won't go on to describe them because it will make me sound like a sour grape. Is there a solution? The only one I know of is to use older machines. As I said earlier, most of my work is done on a 1992 Mac. I don't get to play with emulators as much, but that's okay because real hardware is more fun! A 68030 or 68040 can emulate an 8-bit computer with quite reasonable results anyhow, because a lot more performance tweaking was done back then. The main problem with this approach is that the old hardware is bound to fail sooner rather than later. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 24 08:53:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040923160101.00894620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040924095302.00893a30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:43 PM 9/23/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an >> Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and >> this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be >> made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important >> difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the >> Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. > >My guess? A 320K RAM disk for the Apple ][. Did you get the interface >card with it? No, the Ramdisk and Apple II drive were the only Apple pieces that I could find. However it MAY show up in a future load. Joe > >I've got something similar. It may even be the same brand. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 24 09:11:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <002e01c4a1bd$f0ea6300$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I read it. I'd heard that the Guardian was biased and now I have proof. For example the article claims that a recount in Florida in 2000 gave the election to Gore. That is simply untrue, there were literally dozens of recounts done at different tiems and by different groups and agencies. They were also done under all different conditions (count hanging chats, don't count hanging chats, count military votes, don't count military votes, count absentee ballots, don't count absentee votes, etc etc etc. Only ONE recount at exactly one point in time and under optimal Democratic conditions (such as not counting the absentee ballots) gave the majority to Gore. ALL of the other recounts gave the majority to Bush. The LAST recount was done weeks after the election and including ALL of the military and absentee ballots said that Bush won over Gore by over 3200 votes. That's not mentioned anywhere in the Guardian's report is it? They also failed to mention that the Democratic party tried desperately to have ALL of the military and absentee votes for Florida thrown out since they knew that the military voted overwhelmly for Bush. My wife was working out of state and one of those absentee ballots was her's so we paid a lot of attention to what was going on here. Apparently a lot more than the Gaurdian did. You need to find a less biased source of news! Joe At 11:37 PM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: >http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1307810,00.html > >That's one of the articles , make your own mind up. > >Geoff. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: >On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:56 PM >Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > >> At 05:56 AM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >> >Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:20 AM >> >Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne >> > >> > >> >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> >> >> >> > According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from >> >Mr. >> >> > Bush's backers. >> >> > So who were you really voting for ? >> >> >> >> Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than >you >> >> think. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> >Festival >> > >> >Yes I know , the paper said that they're funding Nader because he pulls a >> >lot of Democrat votes rather than Republican , thus swinging things >Bush's >> >way. >> >> Exit polls have CONSISTANTLY shown that Nader takes more votes away >from >> the Republican than from the Democrats. I've heard CLAIMS that the >> republicans secretly finance Nader but I neve seen any proof and I don't >> beleive the claims. >> >> Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 24 09:17:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: You might be a Floridian if WARNING: OT Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040924101719.008e9580@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You might be a Floridian if: You exhibit a slight twitch when introduced to anyone named Bonnie, Charley, Frances, Ivan, Jeanne, or Karl. Your freezer never has more than $20 worth of food in it any given time You're looking at paint swatches for the plywood on your windows, to accent the house color. You think of your hall closet/saferoom as "cozy". Your pool is more accurately described as "framed in" than "screened in". Your freezer in the garage now only has homemade ice in it. You no longer worry about relatives visiting during the summer months. You, too, haven't heard back from the insurance adjuster. You now understand what that little "2% hurricane deductible" phrase really means. You're putting a collage together on your driveway of roof shingles from your neighborhood. You were once proud of your 16" electric chain saw. Your "Stop Sign" on your street is replaced with a "NO WAKE" sign. You now own 5 large ice chests. Your parrot can now say" hammered, pounded and hunker down". You recognize the same people in line at the free ice, gas and plywood locations. You clap and wave when you see a power truck, cable truck or telephone service truck come down your street. You stop clapping when they don't stop. You have Home Depot and Lowes in your cellular phonebook. You've spent more than $20 on "Tall white kitchen bags" to make your own sand bags. You're considering upgrading your 16" chainsaw to a 20". You know what "Bar chain oil" is. You're thinking of getting your wife the hardhat with the ear protector and face shield for Christmas. You now think that a $6000 whole house generator seems reasonable. You look forward to family discussions about the merits of "cubed, block and dry ice". Your therapist refers to your condition as "generator envy". You fight the urge to put on your winter coat and wool cap and parade around in front of your picture window, when you finally get power and your neighbor across the street, with the noisy generator, doesn't get electric. And finally, you might be a Floridian if: You ask your sister up north to start saving the Sunday Real Estate classifieds! From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Fri Sep 24 09:25:24 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41542E54.8010800@cableone.net> I find it interesting that the Democrats are now claiming the Gore won the popular vote but lost the electorial vote. Gore DID NOT win the popular vote either. Joe R. wrote: > I read it. I'd heard that the Guardian was biased and now I have proof. >For example the article claims that a recount in Florida in 2000 gave the >election to Gore. That is simply untrue, there were literally dozens of >recounts done at different tiems and by different groups and agencies. They >were also done under all different conditions (count hanging chats, don't >count hanging chats, count military votes, don't count military votes, >count absentee ballots, don't count absentee votes, etc etc etc. Only ONE >recount at exactly one point in time and under optimal Democratic >conditions (such as not counting the absentee ballots) gave the majority to >Gore. ALL of the other recounts gave the majority to Bush. The LAST >recount was done weeks after the election and including ALL of the military >and absentee ballots said that Bush won over Gore by over 3200 votes. >That's not mentioned anywhere in the Guardian's report is it? They also >failed to mention that the Democratic party tried desperately to have ALL >of the military and absentee votes for Florida thrown out since they knew >that the military voted overwhelmly for Bush. My wife was working out of >state and one of those absentee ballots was her's so we paid a lot of >attention to what was going on here. Apparently a lot more than the >Gaurdian did. You need to find a less biased source of news! > > Joe > > >At 11:37 PM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: > > >>http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1307810,00.html >> >>That's one of the articles , make your own mind up. >> >>Geoff. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Joe R." >>To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: >>On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:56 PM >>Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne >> >> >> >> >>>At 05:56 AM 9/23/04 +0100, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >>>>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>>> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 2:20 AM >>>>Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Mon, 20 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>According to my Observer newspaper , Nader gets a lot of funding from >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>Mr. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Bush's backers. >>>>>>So who were you really voting for ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Read between the lines. Ask yourself, "why?" It's more cynical than >>>>> >>>>> >>you >> >> >>>>>think. >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Festival >>>> >>>>Yes I know , the paper said that they're funding Nader because he pulls a >>>>lot of Democrat votes rather than Republican , thus swinging things >>>> >>>> >>Bush's >> >> >>>>way. >>>> >>>> >>> Exit polls have CONSISTANTLY shown that Nader takes more votes away >>> >>> >>from >> >> >>>the Republican than from the Democrats. I've heard CLAIMS that the >>>republicans secretly finance Nader but I neve seen any proof and I don't >>>beleive the claims. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> >> >> > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 09:28:04 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924072417.09b5ee00@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924072417.09b5ee00@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1096036084.32008.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 07:27 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Is the Museum of Automata still open in York (England)? > Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this. Hmm, I'm not sure. I did stumble across these two interesting links the other day: http://www.bigredhair.com/automaton http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton cheers, Jules From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Sep 24 09:39:20 2004 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: >On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the > > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: > > > > > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html > > > > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. > > > > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design > > work. > >Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely & utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay computer... Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement the Z80. If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's before we've added memory, i/o, etc. As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by 13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by 400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)... The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate (either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at 20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation before relays started failing... Creating a screen driver should be interesting.... Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a 1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... Cheers, Ade. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 24 01:59:56 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: References: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040923221435.4ddf26f4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20040924085956.781f749c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:21:20 -0700 Ron Hudson wrote: > I always install blackbox... small, fast and I use a simple theme. > and run lots of xterms! "The X windowning system was designed to satisfy the needs of exactely two applications: xclock and xterm." ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Sep 24 09:48:14 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: HP test board? References: <3.0.6.32.20040923161259.00897800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001701c4a245$8708a3b0$0100a8c0@screamer> The 9555 does indeed use a DB-37. I have a system with a 9885M drive, and plan on trying to write a device driver for it sometime soonish... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: HP test board? > Something else that I found this morning. A circuit board about 3 x 5" > square with four toggle switches and a push button switch. The toggle > switches are labeled Freq (0,1), WREN (off,on), Hold (off,on) and DRCT > (out,in). The pushbutton is labeled Step and next to it is a LED labeled > TRK 00. On the other end of the board is long wire with a E-Z hook on the > end of it. Next to where the wire is connected it says Connect to A5 TP9. > The part number on the board is 98015-66501. On the back of the board is > DE-37F connector. There are no other connectors or power jacks so > apparently it gets it's power from the DUT. I'm guessing that it's used > for testing some kind of HP disk drive. I think the HP 9885 disk drive uses > the DD-37 connectors so I think it might be for that. Anyone know any more > about it? > > Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 24 09:58:24 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: >Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > >Ed K. Yes, it was. I think the correct expression is, "what is he smoking?" The starting bid is at $99,000.00 with the reserve not met. BTW, no surprise, the computer store didn't sell. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=3838529913 Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 09:58:49 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <41542E54.8010800@cableone.net> Message-ID: <16724.13865.766780.526413@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Isbell writes: Jim> I find it interesting that the Democrats are now claiming the Jim> Gore won the popular vote but lost the electorial vote. Gore Jim> DID NOT win the popular vote either. Maybe he did, maybe not, I don't really remember. It's irrelevant; the constitution says that it doesn't work that way. If that ever changes, then candidates will run their elections VERY differently. You'll never see a candidate in New Hampshire again, for example. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 10:03:29 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> Message-ID: <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ade" == Ade Vickers writes: Ade> At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: >> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival >> wrote: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >> > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite >> possibly the > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: >> > > >> > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html >> > >> > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at >> the VCF. >> > >> > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and >> design > work. >> >> Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't >> know any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay >> control system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off >> an email to them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the >> wiring diagrams. Ade> I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be Ade> completely & utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate Ade> corrections) on a relay computer... Ade> Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, Ade> it seems to take 1 relay per input to implement any given Ade> gate. Now, I don't know how many "x-input" gates there are in a Ade> Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - it will require 3 Ade> relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement the Z80. I think when people talk about "gates" in a logic design, it's normalized back to the simplest kind: 2 input gates. So that's two relays. Meanwhile, remember that the original Pong didn't use a microcomputer. It's just a board full of 7400 series ICs. It's been too long since I saw one, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to do the equivalent with 50 relays. For one thing, you don't need a video generator, just motor controllers for the paddles and ball. And the sending of ball hitting paddle or wall is done with contacts in the mechanism, not with the logic itself. So the relay control has to control motor speed and direction, but it doesn't have to track position. paul From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Sep 24 10:04:16 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion In-Reply-To: <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul, While I'm willing to accept that mixed drive type strings are possible and supported, I don't see how the quote below supports that. At 8:04 PM -0400 9/23/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" > >> drives on a single RH11/RH70. > >The thing I was trying to remember about mixed drives and booting is >described by this paragraph in the RSTS V9.0 Update Seminar document >(page 2-7): > Multiple RH controllers for disks (DB and DR) have > always been supported by RSTS. The support for this > has been improved in V9 by allowing the booting of > disks on either controller regardless of drive type. > Previously, there was a restriction if the same drives > were on different controllers, you could only boot the > one on the primary controller. > >So the answer for RSTS is (a) mixed drives are supported, That's not what I read in the statement above. IIRC, my /70 supports up to 4 RH70s. The statement above seems to indicate that they removed a restriction where one must boot from drive 0 of a particular RH70. The statement itself doesn't indicate that I can have multiple drive types on the same RH70. >(b) if you >mix on both RP/RM massbus controllers, boot the primary unless you're >running V9.0 or later. Yes, I agree, this seems to be the case. Do you have something that explicitly states multiple drive types are supported on a single RH70? Thanks, John From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 24 10:09:25 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409220736370030.2430652E@192.168.42.129> References: <200409220736370030.2430652E@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200409241009.25831.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Wednesday 22 September 2004 09:36 am, Bruce Lane wrote: > > Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've > encountered to date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive). Most newer systems (last year-year and a half) will boot any device conforming to the USB Mass Storage specification. Since your talking about booting usb devices at all, I'm assuming you're talking about newer systems ;) > And, > while some will boot from the CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is > NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers would have us believe! > > Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level > diagnostics, and getting installations started for open-source OS's such as > the BSD family. They will remain in that position until (1), someone comes > up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2), Data I/O manages to convert > the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded) by something > other than floppies. > > Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a > lonnnnnng time to come, methinks. > > Keep the peace(es). > > >And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology > >must go on. > > > >Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer > >makers say. > > > >Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in > >spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies > >are available on request for $10 to $20 extra. > > > >"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell > >spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a > >floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive." > > > >A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't > >have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the > >benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops > >don't come with a floppy. > > > >More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy, > >said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard. > > > >"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she > >said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready > >to make that move." > > > >Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so > >comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers > >outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South. > > > >At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary > >equipment, but no floppy. > > > >"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the > >last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta > >said. > > > >But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their > >floppies go. > > > >"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a > >pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway. > > > >"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat > >Blaisdell. > > > >The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact > >discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and > >are less likely to break. > > > >Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used > >to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around. > > > >"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and > >computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old > >8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never > >label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in > >and looked." > > > >In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long. > > > >They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word > >processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of > >700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and > >256 megabytes. > > > >And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used > >to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple > >Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its > >Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s. > > > >Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop > >including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model > >in 1998. > > > >"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow demise," > >said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology > >consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were > >screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted." > > > >It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs. > >Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the > >DVD would be obsolete within a decade. > > > >-- > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > >Festival > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > >http://www.vintage.org > > > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > > ] > >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" -- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 24 10:17:34 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: OT(ish): modern UI design concepts In-Reply-To: References: <1095967381.30307.41.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040923221435.4ddf26f4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200409241017.34669.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Thursday 23 September 2004 07:21 pm, Ron Hudson wrote: > On Sep 23, 2004, at 1:14 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Toyz for > > the Linuks kidz. Not my world. Long live fvwm2! (And fvwm2 is a quite > > bloated WM.) I used to test my skillz by getting enlightenment (& all the necessary supporting junk) running on non-Linux plaforms. I had it running (reasonably well, too) an an IBM RS6k with a 66Mhz 604e running AIX 4.3. I was pretty proud of that. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 24 10:36:20 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: HP test board? In-Reply-To: <001701c4a245$8708a3b0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <3.0.6.32.20040923161259.00897800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040924113620.00997100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bob, I know that you and Steve were working on writing some software for the 9885. If you can use this to help figure out the pin out or operation of the 9885s you're welcome to it for a indefinite loan. Joe At 10:48 AM 9/24/04 -0400, you wrote: >The 9555 does indeed use a DB-37. >I have a system with a 9885M drive, and plan on trying to write a device >driver >for it sometime soonish... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: >Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 4:12 PM >Subject: HP test board? > > >> Something else that I found this morning. A circuit board about 3 x 5" >> square with four toggle switches and a push button switch. The toggle >> switches are labeled Freq (0,1), WREN (off,on), Hold (off,on) and DRCT >> (out,in). The pushbutton is labeled Step and next to it is a LED labeled >> TRK 00. On the other end of the board is long wire with a E-Z hook on the >> end of it. Next to where the wire is connected it says Connect to A5 TP9. >> The part number on the board is 98015-66501. On the back of the board is >> DE-37F connector. There are no other connectors or power jacks so >> apparently it gets it's power from the DUT. I'm guessing that it's used >> for testing some kind of HP disk drive. I think the HP 9885 disk drive >uses >> the DD-37 connectors so I think it might be for that. Anyone know any more >> about it? >> >> Joe > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 10:34:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <1096040052.32025.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 08:02 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Ed K. That is a joke, right? From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 10:47:08 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16724.16764.521684.775571@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: John> Paul, While I'm willing to accept that mixed drive type strings John> are possible and supported, I don't see how the quote below John> supports that. John> At 8:04 PM -0400 9/23/04, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" >> >> drives on a single RH11/RH70. >> >> The thing I was trying to remember about mixed drives and booting >> is described by this paragraph in the RSTS V9.0 Update Seminar >> document (page 2-7): Multiple RH controllers for disks (DB and DR) >> have always been supported by RSTS. The support for this has been >> improved in V9 by allowing the booting of disks on either >> controller regardless of drive type. Previously, there was a >> restriction if the same drives were on different controllers, you >> could only boot the one on the primary controller. >> >> So the answer for RSTS is (a) mixed drives are supported, John> That's not what I read in the statement above. IIRC, my /70 John> supports up to 4 RH70s. The statement above seems to indicate John> that they removed a restriction where one must boot from drive John> 0 of a particular RH70. The statement itself doesn't indicate John> that I can have multiple drive types on the same RH70. Actually, the old restriction wasn't quite as severe as you state it, but yes, it doesn't directly address my claim. That's why I said "the thing I was trying to remember..." because I knew there was SOME restriction relating to drive mixing and the two moving head disk RH controllers. The text I quoted states that restriction and the fact it was removed. >> (b) if you mix on both RP/RM massbus controllers, boot the primary >> unless you're running V9.0 or later. John> Yes, I agree, this seems to be the case. John> Do you have something that explicitly states multiple drive John> types are supported on a single RH70? Two things: my own memory from working in RSTS development, and reading the code. I expect it's documented in user manuals, the sysgen manual for example, but I don't have any of those. BTW, you're correct to say that four massbus controllers can exist in an 11/70. At least for RSTS, the rule is that one is for tapes, one for RS03/04, and two for the RP/RM massbus disks. The tapes massbus could have on it any mix of massbus tapes, and the RS03/04 massbus would accept any mix of those two drives, but mixing more than that wasn't allowed. Clearly it would have been possible to make the device drivers more general, so (for example) TU16 and RP04 could live on the same massbus, or 32 RP/RM disks could be supported, 8 on each -- but there never was any push for that and the code doesn't work that way. (Some vague memory says that VMS did have more flexibility in this area -- or was it TOPS-10?) Similarly, I don't think that RSTS allowed mixing MSCP disks and TMSCP tapes on the same controller. I don't really know that stuff -- it may be that no PDP-11 MSCP controller existed that would do disk and tape on the same controller anyway. paul From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Sep 24 11:06:07 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion In-Reply-To: <16724.16764.521684.775571@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16724.16764.521684.775571@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul, At 11:47 AM -0400 9/24/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: > > John> Paul, While I'm willing to accept that mixed drive type strings > John> are possible and supported, I don't see how the quote below > John> supports that. > > John> At 8:04 PM -0400 9/23/04, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> Best rule for SIMH or E11 purposes is NOT to mix "RM" and "RP" > >> >> drives on a single RH11/RH70. > >> > >> The thing I was trying to remember about mixed drives and booting > >> is described by this paragraph in the RSTS V9.0 Update Seminar > >> document (page 2-7): Multiple RH controllers for disks (DB and DR) > >> have always been supported by RSTS. The support for this has been > >> improved in V9 by allowing the booting of disks on either > >> controller regardless of drive type. Previously, there was a > >> restriction if the same drives were on different controllers, you > >> could only boot the one on the primary controller. > >> > >> So the answer for RSTS is (a) mixed drives are supported, > > John> That's not what I read in the statement above. IIRC, my /70 > John> supports up to 4 RH70s. The statement above seems to indicate > John> that they removed a restriction where one must boot from drive > John> 0 of a particular RH70. The statement itself doesn't indicate > John> that I can have multiple drive types on the same RH70. > >Actually, the old restriction wasn't quite as severe as you state it, >but yes, it doesn't directly address my claim. That's why I said "the >thing I was trying to remember..." because I knew there was SOME >restriction relating to drive mixing and the two moving head disk RH >controllers. The text I quoted states that restriction and the fact >it was removed. > > >> (b) if you mix on both RP/RM massbus controllers, boot the primary > >> unless you're running V9.0 or later. > > John> Yes, I agree, this seems to be the case. > > John> Do you have something that explicitly states multiple drive > John> types are supported on a single RH70? > >Two things: my own memory from working in RSTS development, and >reading the code. I expect it's documented in user manuals, the >sysgen manual for example, but I don't have any of those. Thanks for the explanation. I think the code fragment and explanation you posted to SIMH explains this best. >BTW, you're correct to say that four massbus controllers can exist in >an 11/70. At least for RSTS, the rule is that one is for tapes, one >for RS03/04, and two for the RP/RM massbus disks. The tapes massbus >could have on it any mix of massbus tapes, and the RS03/04 massbus >would accept any mix of those two drives, but mixing more than that >wasn't allowed. Didn't remember those details. Thanks. >Clearly it would have been possible to make the device drivers more >general, so (for example) TU16 and RP04 could live on the same >massbus, or 32 RP/RM disks could be supported, 8 on each -- but there >never was any push for that and the code doesn't work that way. (Some >vague memory says that VMS did have more flexibility in this area -- >or was it TOPS-10?) Do the restrictions specify _which_ RH is for tape, RS, disk? Or just that only two for RP/RM, 1 for tape, 1 for RS and it can be any of the four? >Similarly, I don't think that RSTS allowed mixing MSCP disks and TMSCP >tapes on the same controller. I don't really know that stuff -- it >may be that no PDP-11 MSCP controller existed that would do disk and >tape on the same controller anyway. I don't remember a DEC controller that did both MSCP and TMSCP (though I'm certain someone will correct me if I'm wrong), so this may be the motivation there. (Though almost certainly Emulex or someone made a controller that would do both.) Thanks, John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 24 11:43:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <200409241643.JAA05297@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ed Kelleher" > >At 05:49 PM 9/23/2004, you wrote: >> > >> Once I was given a set of coordinates by Ted, who has been mentioned >> > >> before in this book. Ted is a rabid UFO fanatic, and liked to sneak >>UFO >> > >> targets into our tasking now and then. This was forbidden, but he >> > >> sometimes did it anyway. I thought that the target on this particular >> > >> day was an operational target and was not expecting an ET target. >> > >> >> > >*cough*hooey!*cough* >> > > >> > >g. >> > > >> > >> > Thank you Gene. My sentiments exactly. >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>I am glad I wasn't the only one wondering what Sokolov was smoking when he >>wrote that quote. > >I don't know. It could have happened that way. > > > >Ed K. > >:-) > > It could have been a giant elephant sneeze but that is highly unlikely as well. It has all of the marks of a object that was loosely held together that was traveling at very high speed ( not orbital speeds ) that completely disintegrated in the atmosphere. That would best fit a small comet like object. The areas effected correlate well with just such an object. Thye do not correlate with something that blew up with some internal power source. The results of the damage do correlate with an object having a large kinetic energy, transferred to a shock wave in the atmosphere. Why do we have to find the most unlikely explanation for it when the likely one fits so well? Dwight From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 24 12:00:36 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <200409241643.JAA05297@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Why do we have to find the most unlikely explanation for > it when the likely one fits so well? > Dwight > Erm...It enlivens an otherwise boring and depressing existance? :) g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 11:52:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Anybody remember these? In-Reply-To: <20040924101708.VFA14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I just received this manual: > > Science Fair > SF-5000 > ELECTRONIC COMPUTER > by Rolf Lohberg > PROGRAMMING MANUAL > and Assembly Instructions > Engineered For > Science Fair Electronics - A Tandy Corporation Company > > Copyright 1971 > by FRANCKH'SCHE VERLAGSHANDLUNG. KOSMOS > Stuttgart, West Germany I've got one. It's fairly boring compared to other offerings of the era. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 11:57:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion References: <20040923201154.09E943C68@spies.com> <16723.25759.88123.110676@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16724.16764.521684.775571@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16724.20991.933929.594859@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John A Dundas, writes: John> Paul, At 11:47 AM -0400 9/24/04, Paul Koning wrote: >> BTW, you're correct to say that four massbus controllers can exist >> in an 11/70. At least for RSTS, the rule is that one is for >> tapes, one for RS03/04, and two for the RP/RM massbus disks. The >> tapes massbus could have on it any mix of massbus tapes, and the >> RS03/04 massbus would accept any mix of those two drives, but >> mixing more than that wasn't allowed. John> Didn't remember those details. Thanks. >> Clearly it would have been possible to make the device drivers >> more general, so (for example) TU16 and RP04 could live on the >> same massbus, or 32 RP/RM disks could be supported, 8 on each -- >> but there never was any push for that and the code doesn't work >> that way. (Some vague memory says that VMS did have more >> flexibility in this area -- or was it TOPS-10?) John> Do the restrictions specify _which_ RH is for tape, RS, disk? John> Or just that only two for RP/RM, 1 for tape, 1 for RS and it John> can be any of the four? The former. The tape RH is at 772440, the RS RH is at 772040, and the other two (776700 and 776300) are RP/RM. That roughly matches what the PDP11 architecture handbook shows for assignment. However, it says that the 776300 address is "alternate RS/RP/RM/TJ when for RSTS it's only RP/RM. It also says that there's a fifth RH11/RH70 address, 775400 for the TU78. RSTS doesn't support that address and doesn't seem to support the TU78 (too fast for a PDP11, I think). Instead it knows that address as a "KXJ11-CR" whatever that may be. paul From marvin at rain.org Fri Sep 24 12:11:32 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale Message-ID: <41545544.1DF1ED04@rain.org> ACP is a rather well known entity among computer people here in So. California having sponsored the ACP swapmeet for many years. As such, I rather doubt this is a joke. When I was there last year, they had some interesting and some common computers on display. I gather that this display was a small fraction of what they had, and as such, the starting price does not seem that bad assuming that there is a fair amount of "good stuff" that hasn't been mentioned in the ad. A quick glance at the web site (http://www.thepcmuseum.net/) didn't show much in the way of what I would term expensive stuff though. And of course, the reserve price may be a bit high, but no way of knowing that! > From: Jules Richardson > > On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 08:02 -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > Ed K. > > That is a joke, right? > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 24 12:12:31 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: Ed Kelleher "Re: Electromechanical Pong" (Sep 24, 7:27) References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924072417.09b5ee00@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <10409241812.ZM6286@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 24 2004, 7:27, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Is the Museum of Automata still open in York (England)? > Fascinating place that had all sorts of mechanical marvels like this. > I remember an archer that would pull an arrow out of his quiver, shoot it > at a target, then retrieve the arrow and shoot again - all mechanical. > Amazing stuff. Claude's Museum of Automata - no. Sadly, it closed after suffering storm damage some years ago. It was up for sale for a while, but there didn't seem to be any takers. I don't know what eventually happened to the contents, but that's why you won't see it on the web :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 24 12:09:53 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Electromechanical Pong" (Sep 24, 10:57) References: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> <10409232354.ZM5564@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1096023454.32008.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10409241809.ZM6283@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 24 2004, 10:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > Whether bevel gears could be made out of wood is another matter! Nah, they're easy -- that's what disk-and-peg gears are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 24 12:19:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers Message-ID: <200409241719.KAA05310@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ade Vickers" > >At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: > >>On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >> > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the >> > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: >> > > >> > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html >> > >> > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. >> > >> > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design >> > work. >> >>Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >>any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >>system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >>them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. > >I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely >& utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay >computer... > >Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to >take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how >many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - >it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement >the Z80. > >If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw >of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's >before we've added memory, i/o, etc. > >As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to >experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by >13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square >metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space >incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by >400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)... > >The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate >(either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster >than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe >side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at >20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation >before relays started failing... > >Creating a screen driver should be interesting.... > >Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at >all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays >to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? > >Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I >came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). >This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to >replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a >1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... > > >Cheers, >Ade. Hi Ade I think your counts are way off. As I recall, I did a schematic a while back for a single bit of an alu and it only took about 4 or 5 relays. I did use DC and diodes for steering. The only thing you need a relay for is to invert. All AND and OR functions can be done with the contacts of the relays. Even the diodes are not needed if you have enough contacts. The life time of the relays are for maximum current conditions. A relay computer would not be running quite to that level. Also, relay coils can run at lower currents and voltage once pulled in. The clocking circuits can be built to provide a pulse of high voltage to pull the relays in and then a reduced holding current to maintain. I still consider building a relay computer as a practical project but like Karl Zuse, I think that memory is still the biggest issue. Unlike normal silicon, single relays can be used to buffer both inverting or non-inverting. This means that a single relay can be used as a storage element. Silicon requires the use of two inverters for a static memory. I've thought about an array of reed switches for memory with bias magnets. These would be adjusted such that there would be just enough magentic field to hold the reed closed once closed but not enough to cause it to close by itself. The coils would then be used to open and close by applying a counter or aiding field to the reed/magnet. The magents would be arrange with alternating directions such that there was no accumulating of the magentic field across the array of the reed RAM. ROM can be done with and array of diodes and switches. I'd keep the ALU simple since most times, it doesn't need to do arithmatic. A single bit ALU with a few serial storage shift registers would be sufficient for most math operations. Dwight From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 24 12:23:46 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: The DFWCUG Historical CPU Preservation Society Message-ID: <41545822.10900@ecubics.com> Who is the maintainer of this ? Only the main webpage works, everything else is timeouts ... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 24 12:30:40 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: Ade Vickers "Relay computers" (Sep 24, 15:39) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> Message-ID: <10409241830.ZM6321@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 24 2004, 15:39, Ade Vickers wrote: > > Additional: Hunting around for a suitable CPU to implement in relays, I > came across the P8 CPU design (http://www.rexfisher.com/P8/P8_TOC.htm). > This uses a 74LS181 4-bit ALU, which I reckon would require 149 relays to > replicate. The only thing that confuzzles me is: what use, exactly, is a > 1-input AND? Several of these appear on the 74LS181 schematic... I've not seen the specific diagram you're referring to, but are you sure they're not NAND gates? There are a few in the diagram I have. A 1-input NAND is of course an inverter. But otherwise, a 1-input gate could be used as a buffer (there are some inverters on the LS181 inputs for that reason) or to equalise the gate delays along some particular path to match another. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Fri Sep 24 13:14:54 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Macintosh Plus for Shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4154641E.5020300@cableone.net> I have a Mac Plus that is up for grabs. All you pay is shipping. On Saturday it goes into the trash. > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 13:24:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Not the museum, just the store. By the way, Dave Freeman will be speaking at this year's Vintage Computer Festival. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Sep 24 13:39:36 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <200409241719.KAA05310@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409241719.KAA05310@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Ade Vickers" >> >> At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: >> >> Cheers, >> Ade. > > Hi Ade > I think your counts are way off. As I recall, I did a schematic > a while back for a single bit of an alu and it only took about > 4 or 5 relays. I did use DC and diodes for steering. I also think that these relay counts are a bit excessive. We are forgetting the huge amount of wisdom available on relay logic design, starting mainly with AT&T and the Bell System, and many other authors who wrote on this subect from the 20s thru the 60s. There are several branches of mathematics and combinatorial logic devoted to the analysis and optimization of relay logic systems - which of course is being rapidly forgotten today for obvious reasons. That makes these books cheap / free : Engineer's Relay Handbook, various authors (Hayden) Switching Circuits and Logical Design, Caldwell (Wiley) Design of Switching Systems, Ritchie* (Bell System) and those are just the three cluttering up my desk - there are probably 10 more on the shelves. Point being - the design of a modern Relay Computer must start with the Boolean design and equations, to which are then applied the well-known and well-documented principles of Optimization as they concern electro-mechanical logic. Then the practical (also well-documented) aspects of: speed, timing, current draw, contact protection, etc. Layout and wiring optimization come next... not the least being: when it breaks, can you find it and fix it? Cheers John Note: This book is by the "C" language author's Father.... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 24 13:48:31 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <200409241719.KAA05310@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <41546BFF.6030902@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I've thought about an array of reed switches for memory with > bias magnets. These would be adjusted such that there would > be just enough magentic field to hold the reed closed once closed > but not enough to cause it to close by itself. The coils would > then be used to open and close by applying a counter or aiding > field to the reed/magnet. The magents would be arrange with alternating > directions such that there was no accumulating of the magentic > field across the array of the reed RAM. ROM can be done with > and array of diodes and switches. Why not just use a very large core memory instead and sence the output with a very sensitive relay? > I'd keep the ALU simple since most times, it doesn't need to > do arithmatic. A single bit ALU with a few serial storage > shift registers would be sufficient for most math operations. > You hope, homebrew CPU's have a way of growing on you. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 24 13:51:32 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <200409241719.KAA05310@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <41546CB4.80607@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I've thought about an array of reed switches for memory with > bias magnets. These would be adjusted such that there would > be just enough magentic field to hold the reed closed once closed > but not enough to cause it to close by itself. The coils would > then be used to open and close by applying a counter or aiding > field to the reed/magnet. The magents would be arrange with alternating > directions such that there was no accumulating of the magentic > field across the array of the reed RAM. ROM can be done with > and array of diodes and switches. Why not just use a very large core memory instead and sence the output with a very sensitive relay? > I'd keep the ALU simple since most times, it doesn't need to > do arithmatic. A single bit ALU with a few serial storage > shift registers would be sufficient for most math operations. > You hope, homebrew CPU's have a way of growing on you. :) Also so does memory. :) From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 14:06:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <1096036084.32008.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I did stumble across these two interesting links the other day: > > http://www.bigredhair.com/automaton I was going to comment that people were so gullible back then, but then I submit to you the America of today. > http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton Now THAT is amazingly cool. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 14:17:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > sending of ball hitting paddle or wall is done with contacts in the > mechanism, not with the logic itself. So the relay control has to Perhaps I read it wrong but the PONGMECHANIK uses logic to determine when the ball has hit a paddle or wall. "Element 2: The movements of ball and racquet, as well as the collision detection take place in a metal chassis under the glass cover. Each moving game compoent has a mechanical counterpart, which is moved by electric motors. When these parts collide, contacts are closed and the relays in the computer switch the direction of rotation of the motors." -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 14:19:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:29 2005 Subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409241009.25831.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed many times before, but it bears repeating. See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why? I ask again: why? Please take the two seconds it requires to trim your replies, people. OKAY? On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > On Wednesday 22 September 2004 09:36 am, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > > Perhaps not, but I still don't see any way, in the systems I've > > encountered to date, to boot from the USB port (for a Jump drive). > > Most newer systems (last year-year and a half) will boot any device conforming > to the USB Mass Storage specification. > > Since your talking about booting usb devices at all, I'm assuming you're > talking about newer systems ;) > > > And, > > while some will boot from the CD-ROM drive (notably Compaq servers), it is > > NOT as common a thing as PC manufacturers would have us believe! > > > > Floppies are still my A-number-one choice for booting low-level > > diagnostics, and getting installations started for open-source OS's such as > > the BSD family. They will remain in that position until (1), someone comes > > up with a means to boot from a Jump drive. (2), Data I/O manages to convert > > the Unisite programmer to boot (or allow updates to be loaded) by something > > other than floppies. > > > > Like the horse, as the article says, they're going to be around for a > > lonnnnnng time to come, methinks. > > > > Keep the peace(es). > > > > >And good riddance, say some home computer users. The march of technology > > >must go on. > > > > > >Like the penny, the floppy drive is hardly worth the trouble, computer > > >makers say. > > > > > >Dell Computer Corp. stopped including a floppy drive in new computers in > > >spring 2003, and Gateway Inc. has followed suit on some models. Floppies > > >are available on request for $10 to $20 extra. > > > > > >"To some customers out there, it's like a security blanket," said Dell > > >spokesman Lionel Menchaca. "Every computer they've ever had has had a > > >floppy, so they still feel the need to order a floppy drive." > > > > > >A few customers have complained when they found their new computers don't > > >have floppy drives, but it's becoming uncommon as they realize the > > >benefits of newer technologies, Menchaca said. Almost all new laptops > > >don't come with a floppy. > > > > > >More and more people are willing to say goodbye to the venerable floppy, > > >said Gateway spokeswoman Lisa Emard. > > > > > >"As long as we see customers request it, we'll continue to offer it," she > > >said. "We'll be happy to move off the floppy once our customers are ready > > >to make that move." > > > > > >Some people may hesitate to abandon the floppy just because they're so > > >comfortable with it, said Tarun Bhakta, president of Vision Computers > > >outside Atlanta, one of the largest computer retailers in the South. > > > > > >At his store, the basic computer model comes with all necessary > > >equipment, but no floppy. > > > > > >"People say they want a floppy drive, and then I ask them, 'When was the > > >last time you used it?' A lot of the time, they say, 'Never,'" Bhakta > > >said. > > > > > >But plenty of regular, everyday computer users don't want to let their > > >floppies go. > > > > > >"For my children, they can work at school and at home. I think they're a > > >pretty good idea," said shopper Mark Ordway. > > > > > >"I just want something simple for me and my husband to use," said Pat > > >Blaisdell. > > > > > >The floppy disk has several replacements, including writeable compact > > >discs and keychain flash memory devices. Both can hold much more data and > > >are less likely to break. > > > > > >Even so, floppies have been around since the late 1970s. People are used > > >to them. They were the oldest form of removable storage still around. > > > > > >"There's always some nostalgia," said Scott Wills, an electrical and > > >computer engineering professor at Georgia Tech who has held on to an old > > >8-inch floppy disk. "It's a technology I'm glad to be rid of. I'd never > > >label them, and I never knew what any of them were until I put them in > > >and looked." > > > > > >In a sense, it's amazing floppy disks have hung around for this long. > > > > > >They only hold 1.44 megabytes of space — still enough for word > > >processing documents but little else. By comparison, CDs store upward of > > >700 megabytes, and the flash memory drives typically carry between 64 and > > >256 megabytes. > > > > > >And it's been a long time since floppy disks were even floppy. They used > > >to come in a bendable plastic casing and were 5.25 inches wide, but Apple > > >Computer Inc. pioneered the smaller, higher density disks with its > > >Macintosh (news - web sites) computers in the mid-1980s. > > > > > >Then Apple become the first mass-market computer manufacturer to stop > > >including floppy drives altogether with the release of their iMac model > > >in 1998. > > > > > >"It's not officially dead, but there's no question it's a slow demise," > > >said Tim Bajarin, principle analyst for Creative Strategies, a technology > > >consulting firm near San Jose, Calif. "You had a few people ... who were > > >screaming, but in a short time, they adjusted." > > > > > >It may not be too many years before floppy disks are joined by DVDs. > > >Microsoft founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) recently predicted the > > >DVD would be obsolete within a decade. > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > >Festival > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >---- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > >http://www.vintage.org > > > > > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > > > ] > > >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > > surreal ports?" > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 14:43:25 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096055005.32008.64.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:19 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed many times before, but it > bears repeating. > > See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There > are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why? stop top-posting ;-P From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 14:48:07 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne In-Reply-To: <41542E54.8010800@cableone.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <41542E54.8010800@cableone.net> Message-ID: <1096055286.4171.0.camel@fiche.wps.com> Can we drop this thread please? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 24 14:54:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <200409241643.JAA05297@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409241643.JAA05297@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040924125025.B25453@shell.lmi.net> > >I don't know. It could have happened that way. > > It could have been a giant elephant sneeze but that is highly > unlikely as well. How about power supply capacitors? Or the BSOD hypothesis: On "current" ATX PCs, the OS has partial control of the power. What will happen when WINDOZE is used to control really serious amounts of power? From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 14:57:07 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> Message-ID: <1096055826.4171.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 07:39, Ade Vickers wrote: > If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current > draw > of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And > that's > before we've added memory, i/o, etc. Last things first :-) the place to look for this is telco. They did really for real. Most of them are 48V; it lowers current plus higher voltages help with the inductive time constant thing (take a look at how teletype loops are done; HV, a series resistor shortens the *effective* time constant (eg. the time to reach 60mA in the tty case). > (either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything > faster > than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the > safe > side. First things second :-) doing a z80 might be silly, but I bet there's architectures more amenable to relays. Plus, if speed were you goal (probably not :-) asynchronous logic would likely be better, at least within functional units. Setup inputs to a net, when the output appears, there you go. > The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at > 20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of > operation > before relays started failing... Telco! Abd yes, wire-OR (or whatever, depending on conventions) is totally appropriate. I made a digital clock using relay T-type flipflops to do divide a 1-second timebase (pendulum! not made yet, substituted a 555 for testing) 2, 4, 8, 16, 32nds of a minute, ANDed to get 60 in the usual fashion, which drove a stepper 1-of-6, 1-of-10, and 1-of-12 decoders to drive edge-lit display. (Don't spoil the fun by pointing out it can be all done with the steppers.) You can actually *hear* ripple carry, which is cool. It uses "sensitive" relays, a few mA at 36V I think. I never made the pendulum timebase, nor finished the wiring for the display, as I installed all the flops onto boards (redwood!) in a cardcage, realized it needs to be re-laid out such that you can see all the relays at once. I will eventually get around to it. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 14:55:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > > > sending of ball hitting paddle or wall is done with contacts in the > > mechanism, not with the logic itself. So the relay control has to > > Perhaps I read it wrong but the PONGMECHANIK uses logic to determine when > the ball has hit a paddle or wall. > > "Element 2: The movements of ball and racquet, as well as the collision > detection take place in a metal chassis under the glass cover. Each moving > game compoent has a mechanical counterpart, which is moved by electric > motors. When these parts collide, contacts are closed and the relays in > the computer switch the direction of rotation of the motors." Hmm, upon further ponderance it seems like there is a combination of mechanical contact and logic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 15:01:08 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1096056068.4171.14.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 08:03, Paul Koning wrote: > I think when people talk about "gates" in a logic design, it's > normalized back to the simplest kind: 2 input gates. So that's two > relays. Well, with multi-terminal devices like relays, you get lots of outputs, double-pole sort of "open collector". Plus, when circumstances allow it, you can use ONE relay coil as two inputs; the two ends of the coil winding are coil1 and coil2: coil1 coil2 -v -v off -v +v on +v -v on +v +v off Can't do that with a transistor! From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 15:05:19 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200409241009.25831.dtwright@uiuc.edu> References: <200409220736370030.2430652E@192.168.42.129> <200409241009.25831.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <1096056318.4171.19.camel@fiche.wps.com> This happened today: I work at UC Irvine, new and previous students are giving presentations on their area of research (1st week of school). A student's turn comes up, he walks up to the pile of media computers... with a floppy disk. It turns out that in our entire program (Arts Computation Engineering) only one computer, an administrator's, has a floppy drive, via which we transferred the file to the fileserver. In the entire first year of the program (2003-2004) not one person ever tried to use a floppy disk. (So-called; a 3.5" 1.44M.) There you go. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 15:15:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096056939.4171.25.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:06, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton > > Now THAT is amazingly cool. Those things really are extraordinary. Even more amazing must be the method of describing, in cams and levers, the motions necessary to carry it out. It's "programmable". I *never* hear any interest, discussion, or documentation of how the process of 'programming' these machines (as well as music players and related automata) was done. There's a transformation and abstraction of thought, through arbitrary hardware constraints, into a desired end. It's an algorithm, and (pun intended) if it walks like a duck, it's probably a duck -- it's programming. Same (and more) goes to jacquard loom programming. Clearly that's known, because there are still such things in use, though I imagine techniques have improved, but I bet textile historians would know where to look for that. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 24 15:19:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096056068.4171.14.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1096056068.4171.14.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1096057152.4171.28.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 13:01, Tom Jennings wrote: > Plus, when circumstances allow it, > you can use ONE relay coil as two inputs; > ... > Can't do that with a transistor! Sorry, of course you can, but it takes extra components, and the point with a relay is it is symmetrical (often or usually). From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 15:27:56 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16724.33612.170632.961687@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >> sending of ball hitting paddle or wall is done with contacts in >> the mechanism, not with the logic itself. So the relay control >> has to Vintage> Perhaps I read it wrong but the PONGMECHANIK uses logic to Vintage> determine when the ball has hit a paddle or wall. Vintage> "Element 2: The movements of ball and racquet, as well as Vintage> the collision detection take place in a metal chassis under Vintage> the glass cover. Each moving game compoent has a mechanical Vintage> counterpart, which is moved by electric motors. When these Vintage> parts collide, contacts are closed and the relays in the Vintage> computer switch the direction of rotation of the motors." What I meant is that the relay control is not doing position calculation. It doesn't know where the ball and paddles are (only whether certain motors are turning). Detecting ball hitting paddle is by a contact on the ball carriage hitting a contact on the paddle carriage. In a sense the system is a hybrid computer: a digital control system driving an analog computer. The analog computer is the set of motors and switches on the playing field display. Or to put it differently: the digital computer sets the motor speeds, and the analog computer integrates that over time (double integral, dx and dy) to find the position of the ball. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 24 15:28:49 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <10409232344.ZM5520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <008801c4a275$19498b20$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > The reason I asked my question is just that I've never seen > or heard of > a CIS option for the 11/03, and I can't think where you'd put it. > There are no spare sockets on the board and not nearly enough of the > internal bus is brought out. Well, there's a spare socket on a basic > M7264 (the original quad board) and on a basic M7270 (the later and > more common LSI-11/2 dual-height board), but they're for the KEV11 > (EIS/FIS) option. Most of the 11/03 processors I've seen have the > KEV11 already fitted. The M7264 (KD11-F et al) can take EIS/FIS or DIS (DIBOL Instruction Set ... never seen one of these in real life). No mention in the LSI Systems Maint. Volumes of any CIS for this variant. It is mentioned for the later KDF11-BA (M8189), so it's not that the manuals predate CIS or anything. > So, whilst willing to believe that CIS exists for an 11/03 if someone > has it, I think something else is much more likely :-) Of course, if > it does exist, I'd be very interested to know more about it! I'd agree that it seems unlikely. It may be that someone has a box that says 11/03 but has been upgraded at some point in its life and no longer harbours an M7264. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 24 15:35:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Another HP 9915, Wahoo! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040924163534.00975660@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went scrounging a couple of days ago and one of the things that I found was a HP 19" rack mount unit called a HP 5181A Display/Tape Storage Unit. I grabbed it without looking too losely. Today I checked it and found that the RH side of the unit is a HP 9915A computer! The LH side is a HP 1332 X-Y CRT display. No idea what the whole unit is for. Anyone know? I couldn't find anything on the net about it. Joe From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 24 15:36:03 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Ampex test card Message-ID: <200409241636.09668.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Cleaning in the basement I came across a card with the following text ampex write amplifier test card 61145-03 d9756-461 the pins there are 10 leads a gap then 4 more 3.25" x 7.75" Any idea what system this goes with? -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 24 15:42:22 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: The DFWCUG Historical CPU Preservation Society In-Reply-To: <41545822.10900@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <008901c4a276$fe5dd760$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Who is the maintainer of this ? > Only the main webpage works, everything else is timeouts ... That used to be Pat Jankowiak, but I don't have a current address for him. You can try going through the Montagar folks (start here http://montagar.com/), as I think they all know each other. I expect that it is all available via http://vt100.net/manx; what were you looking for in particular? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 24 15:44:10 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong References: <1096056939.4171.25.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16724.34586.242290.291867@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 12:06, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > http://www.fi.edu/pieces/knox/automaton >> >> Now THAT is amazingly cool. Tom> Those things really are extraordinary. Even more amazing must be Tom> the method of describing, in cams and levers, the motions Tom> necessary to carry it out. It's "programmable". Sure is. Tom> I *never* hear any interest, discussion, or documentation of how Tom> the process of 'programming' these machines (as well as music Tom> players and related automata) was done. There's a transformation Tom> and abstraction of thought, through arbitrary hardware Tom> constraints, into a desired end. It's an algorithm, and (pun Tom> intended) if it walks like a duck, it's probably a duck -- it's Tom> programming. In some cases there isn't much abstraction. For example, music boxes, player pianos, and calliopes all have a tape or roll with one "channel" per sound making element, moving at constant speed. So the program is simply a two-dimensional representation of the sound: frequency (or more precisely, sound actuator) on the x axis, time on the y axis. That cam mechanism is similar to what you find in many mechanisms, though a whole lot more complicated. Describing motion of mechanisms by one or more cams is classic mechanical engineering. Design of cams, in particular cams in fast moving mechanism, is a serious topic for ME majors... paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 24 15:45:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers Message-ID: <200409242045.NAA05436@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 07:39, Ade Vickers wrote: > >> If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current >> draw >> of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And >> that's >> before we've added memory, i/o, etc. > >Last things first :-) the place to look for this is telco. They did >really for real. Most of them are 48V; it lowers current plus higher >voltages help with the inductive time constant thing (take a look at how >teletype loops are done; HV, a series resistor shortens the *effective* >time constant (eg. the time to reach 60mA in the tty case). > > Hi Increasing the resistance doesn't change the power needed to pull in the armature, all it does is decrease the time constant for a particular inductance. Higher voltages require more resistance in the wire, meaning more turns. The pulling effect on the armature is just ampere-turns. Using more resistance just means higher voltage. E^2. One can do the same thing by adding a resistor in series with the 6V coil and using a higher drive voltage. Power wise, it is a loss. You still need the effective 25mA in the coil. Dwight Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 15:55:29 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <16724.33612.170632.961687@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16724.14145.111574.941854@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16724.33612.170632.961687@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1096059329.32008.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-09-24 at 16:27 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > Vintage> "Element 2: The movements of ball and racquet, as well as > Vintage> the collision detection take place in a metal chassis under > Vintage> the glass cover. Each moving game compoent has a mechanical > Vintage> counterpart, which is moved by electric motors. When these > Vintage> parts collide, contacts are closed and the relays in the > Vintage> computer switch the direction of rotation of the motors." > > What I meant is that the relay control is not doing position > calculation. It doesn't know where the ball and paddles are (only > whether certain motors are turning). I was going to say that it does need to know what quadrant of the field the ball is in so that it can return the ball to the centre position after a point has been scored - but looking at the wiring diagram it's actually cleverer than that (I'm having to learn German as I go, here). All it does to return the ball is reverse polarity to the ball X/Y drive motors when the ball goes out of play, and only stop each motor when it reaches its respective centre line. Neat. cheers, Jules From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Sep 24 16:22:53 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne References: <3.0.6.32.20040923085608.00935570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040924101111.00895100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004c01c4a27c$b8777f20$0200a8c0@geoff> >From this side of the pond the view is that your President Bush is the most corrupt in modern times - his well documented draft - dodging only supports that view. I have more faith in our Guardian/ Observer newspapers than any of your organs run by the likes of Rupert Murdoch. His Sun "newspaper" over here is the subject of much scorn. If you want Bush , you have my sympathies. Wait till the oil runs out ( the war in Iraq was about oil remember ? ), you're gonna be in the piggies. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "Geoffrey Thomas" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:11 PM Subject: Re: I don't believe it!!! Jeanne > > I read it. I'd heard that the Guardian was biased and now I have proof. > For example the article claims that a recount in Florida in 2000 gave the > election to Gore. That is simply untrue, there were literally dozens of > recounts done at different tiems and by different groups and agencies. They > were also done under all different conditions (count hanging chats, don't > count hanging chats, count military votes, don't count military votes, > count absentee ballots, don't count absentee votes, etc etc etc. Only ONE > recount at exactly one point in time and under optimal Democratic > conditions (such as not counting the absentee ballots) gave the majority to > Gore. ALL of the other recounts gave the majority to Bush. The LAST > recount was done weeks after the election and including ALL of the military > and absentee ballots said that Bush won over Gore by over 3200 votes. > That's not mentioned anywhere in the Guardian's report is it? They also > failed to mention that the Democratic party tried desperately to have ALL > of the military and absentee votes for Florida thrown out since they knew > that the military voted overwhelmly for Bush. My wife was working out of > state and one of those absentee ballots was her's so we paid a lot of > attention to what was going on here. Apparently a lot more than the > Gaurdian did. You need to find a less biased source of news! > > Joe > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 24 17:33:52 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: More Commodore PET drives - more help? Message-ID: <20040924223351.NZFG14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Still slogging away at our big pile of Commodore PET equipment. (Having a pretty good success rate so far - thank god for funet!) Todays's victims are: 1) Commodore SFD-1001 This is the IEEE-488 (PET) single-drive that looks very much like a VIC/C64 1541 serial drive. The drive powers on, and both the POWER and drive LED come on solid RED and stay that way - no other activity is observed - it doesn't matter if the IEEE bus is connected or not, and resetting the IEEE bus (via PET power-on) has no effect. If the PET tries to access the IEEE bus, it hangs, presumably waiting for an acknowlege that never comes (?) It looks like the on-board CPU is not running at all. I found some schematics on funet, however I have no experience with this particular drive at all - anyone have any tips or pointers? Any known common faults with these symptoms? 2) This is an MSD-SD2, a third party "clone" of the Commodore 2040/4040 drive (Yeah, I know it's not an exact clone as the internals are different, but it reads/writes 4040 disk format). This drive powers on and repeatedly flashed an error code consisting of seven (7) flashes of all three LED's (POWER, Drive1, Drive2). I can find no service information on this drive at all. Looking for: - Info on what the error code means. - Schematics - Any other service info/tips. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 24 17:43:06 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Computer museum for sale In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040924080145.09b3ecc0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <35884.192.168.0.11.1096065786.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Wasn't this place mentioned the other day? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5125710949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Ed K. If the auction 'haul' is more than 600 machines I'd hate to see the cost (human and otherwise) of boxing and shipping it all; I'd also question the sanity of someone trying to shift that much stuff using epay. Do they think they can wave a magic wand and let the collecting genie (like the video genie but with more RAM :) lose everything for them? The price may be favourable for UK types though...... In other news, I was in Leeds, UK today. For far too much time than I'd have liked. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 17:39:39 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Macintosh Plus for Shipping In-Reply-To: <4154641E.5020300@cableone.net> Message-ID: <20040924223939.35299.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Whereabouts are you? Frankly, I really don't need another Mac Plus, and if anyone else wants it, please let them have it. If it's headed for the trash, though, I'll likely be willing to save it. --Bill --- Jim Isbell wrote: > I have a Mac Plus that is up for grabs. All you pay > is shipping. On > Saturday it goes into the trash. > > > > > > From aek at spies.com Fri Sep 24 18:34:55 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: The DFWCUG Historical CPU Preservation Society Message-ID: <20040924233455.54E333C2B@spies.com> Pat has lost interest in DEC collecting. I spoke to him when I was down there a few months ago. Here is an exerpt from a mail msg from him. Since however, one of us, The famous John R. Wisniewski, from DEC, has passed away, and due to the economics in the present time following 911, when everyone lost so much money and the purse strings have become very tight, we are not able to continue to seek grants or raise funds for a permanent place to store and show these, so at some time in the future, the entire collection will probably be liquidated. -- I will forward his current email adr through private email to Emanuel. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 24 15:05:21 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096059329.32008.77.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <16724.33612.170632.961687@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040925000029.RKAB2048.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Jules wrote: > > I was going to say that it does need to know what quadrant of the field > the ball is in so that it can return the ball to the centre position > after a point has been scored - but looking at the wiring diagram it's > actually cleverer than that (I'm having to learn German as I go, here). > > All it does to return the ball is reverse polarity to the ball X/Y drive > motors when the ball goes out of play, and only stop each motor when it > reaches its respective centre line. Neat. Snap! I remembered! In early 80's, there WAS a 5" x 9" x bit over 1" thick black toy. Powered by battery, totally mechanical motor runnning all the time, one dim red LED as "ball". Paddles slides side to side on each end. To play, Turn on red dot glows (LED) press start button and motor starts whirring audiably, the dot moves in fixed directions if it bounces off the paddles, LED mechanically stiffly "rebounds" and goes in different direction so on. A miss, the motor stops LED "ball" still glowing. I did recall clearly that LED never ever rebounded off the "side wall". There was another similar mechanical flat toy but you "steer" the race car around the objects on the invisible "belt" and miss them toy keep going. Fun stops with flashing LED where racecar "exploded" when racecar "bashed" something. Cheers, Wizard From aek at spies.com Fri Sep 24 19:13:51 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo Message-ID: <20040925001351.2B1693C24@spies.com> Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I need to match the paint for the logo restoration. -- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124508154 the logo is a sticker on the 11/23's From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Sep 24 19:13:24 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: WANTED ($$$): PRO/VENIX (or VENIX/PRO ;-) Message-ID: Hi, If anyone has an original copy of the above (either one; I believe the first one is VenturCom's naming, and the latter is DEC's naming) and could be persuaded to part with it for a reasonable price, pse contact me off-list ! Thanks, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 18:54:54 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Anybody remember these? In-Reply-To: <20040924101708.VFA14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 24, 4 06:17:09 am Message-ID: > This is the Radio Shack version of the Kosmos "Logikus". It is a > small flat device with ten multi-position slider switches which move > in and out of the front. At the back is a raised panel with ten lights > which can illuminate various cards that you slide into the front of > the panel. Remmber it? I still have mine somewhere (with the manual, the lamp overlays and the little strips you slide in at the front to label the sliders). I did a few modifications to mine, the only pernaent one being to add a 3.5mm jack socket to plug in a mains adapter. I did a fair few hacks with mine, I certainly added relays (wires soldered to the terminals which I plugged into the 'programming breadboard' to give some seqeuntial functions. I also have a couple of the Philips CL1600-series modules. Each module is an arbitrary 3-input gate (programmed by patch sockets on the module), it contains (IIRC) 3 ICs. Alas I only ever had the smallest set (2 logic modules and a battery/input switch module). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 19:06:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096056068.4171.14.camel@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Sep 24, 4 01:01:08 pm Message-ID: > double-pole sort of "open collector". Plus, when circumstances allow it, > you can use ONE relay coil as two inputs; the two ends of the coil > winding are coil1 and coil2: > > > coil1 coil2 > -v -v off > -v +v on > +v -v on > +v +v off There were/are also relays with 2 coils. The idea is that either coil alone will activate the contacts, but if you energise them both together (in opposite directions), the magnetic fields cancel out, and the contacts don't operate. And of course there are magnetically-latched relays (effectively SR flip-flops). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 19:14:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: HP test board? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040924113620.00997100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 24, 4 11:36:20 am Message-ID: > > Bob, > > I know that you and Steve were working on writing some software for the > 9885. If you can use this to help figure out the pin out or operation of > the 9885s you're welcome to it for a indefinite loan. It may not be a lot of use for that. I've not seriously looked inside the 9885 yet (a future project, thanks for prompting me...), but it would appwar that the lonk between the master and slave drive units -- the DC37 connecotrs -- is somewhat like a Shugart drive interface (low-level disk drive contorl sigals). The master drive contains the controller (4 or 5 PCBs from what I remember) and links to the host using a 16 bit parallel interface. There would seem to be little point in using the slave drives on their own -- any normal 8" drive would do as well. And if you're going to be using the master, you'll be talking to the higher-level interface, on the DD50 connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 24 19:10:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: More Commodore PET drives - more help? In-Reply-To: <20040924223351.NZFG14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 24, 4 06:33:52 pm Message-ID: > 1) Commodore SFD-1001 > This is the IEEE-488 (PET) single-drive that looks > very much like a VIC/C64 1541 serial drive. > > The drive powers on, and both the POWER and drive LED > come on solid RED and stay that way - no other activity > is observed - it doesn't matter if the IEEE bus is > connected or not, and resetting the IEEE bus (via PET > power-on) has no effect. If the PET tries to access the > IEEE bus, it hangs, presumably waiting for an acknowlege > that never comes (?) > > It looks like the on-board CPU is not running at all. I would guess that's likely to be the case (although I've never worked on this unit). In which case I'd start by checking the +5V power rail, then check the CPU clock and reset pins (make sure the thing isn't held in the reset state), then see what the aaddres and data lines are doing. -tony From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Fri Sep 24 21:22:25 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Macintosh Plus for Shipping In-Reply-To: <20040924223939.35299.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040924223939.35299.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4154D661.50900@cableone.net> I am in far south Texas. So far one inquiry and no response from him yet atfter I told him where I was. William Maddox wrote: >Whereabouts are you? > >Frankly, I really don't need another Mac Plus, and >if anyone else wants it, please let them have it. >If it's headed for the trash, though, I'll likely >be willing to save it. > >--Bill > > >--- Jim Isbell wrote: > > > >>I have a Mac Plus that is up for grabs. All you pay >>is shipping. On >>Saturday it goes into the trash. >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 22:34:49 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924153644.037a6c90@slave> Message-ID: <4154E759.5080002@pacbell.net> Ade Vickers wrote: ... > I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be > completely & utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on > a relay computer... > > Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems > to take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know > how many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on > average - it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to > implement the Z80. ... i've read the other replies on the subject, but there is one failure in your estimate that hasn't been mentioned that I noticed. relays often have mutliple poles and multiple throws, rather than just a single SPST type connection. as a result, one relay can be used on more than one gate. Imagine implementing this trivial logic: y1 = a & b; y2 = a & c; you could use four relays where the "a" is wired to energize two of the relays, while "b" and "c" inputs each energize one relay. if you wire an "a" and "b" energized reley in series, there is a path from in to out only if "a & b". likewise, take the other pair of relays and wire them in series to implement "a & c". Instead of four SPST relays, make one of them DPST (one electromagnet that triggers two parallel but otherwise independent SPST switches). In this case, the "a" input energizes this DPST relay, and the "b" and "c" relays are as before. Wire one pole of the "a" relay in series with the "b" relay and the other pole of the "a" relay in series with the "c" relay. This implements the same logic but with three relays instead of four. That is a simple example, but imagine a more complex case with many terms that include "a & (something)". In theory, only one relay is needed for this part of all equations involving the "a &", limited only by the mechanical problem of having so many poles. There are other ways of sharing logic as well. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 24 22:37:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <20040925000029.RKAB2048.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > In early 80's, there WAS a 5" x 9" x bit over 1" thick black toy. > Powered by battery, totally mechanical motor runnning all the time, > one dim red LED as "ball". Paddles slides side to side on each end. > > To play, Turn on red dot glows (LED) press start button and motor > starts whirring audiably, the dot moves in fixed directions if it > bounces off the paddles, LED mechanically stiffly "rebounds" and goes > in different direction so on. A miss, the motor stops LED "ball" > still glowing. I did recall clearly that LED never ever rebounded > off the "side wall". That was the game "Blip!" by Tomy. I've got one (they're not that hard to find). http://users2.ev1.net/~rik1138/Tomy/Blip.htm > There was another similar mechanical flat toy but you "steer" the > race car around the objects on the invisible "belt" and miss them toy > keep going. Fun stops with flashing LED where racecar "exploded" > when racecar "bashed" something. Mattel Auto Race http://users2.ev1.net/~rik1138/Mattel/AutoRace.htm The first hand-held electronic game (source: Evan Koblentz ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jec at jcosper.com Fri Sep 24 23:17:12 2004 From: jec at jcosper.com (James E Cosper) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications Message-ID: <200409242116267.SM00176@work3> > If anyone has the manual (not sure of its exact title) describing the >modifications necessary to connect an ETA-3400 to an ET-3400, please email >me on or off-list. > Greetings, I received several requests for these: Microprocessor Trainer ET-3400 part number 595-2021-06, copyright date 1977 113 Pages + 3 set Foldout + "price list 10/20/80". Memory and Input/Output Accessory for the ET-3400 part number 595-2271-01, copyright date 1979 95 pages. Memory Input/Output Accessory ETA-3400 (Assembly) part number 595-2170-03, copyright date 1979 57 Pages. + 1 set Foldout. Modification Kit for the Heathkit ET/ETW-3400 and 3400A Microprocessor Trainers Model ETA-3400/EWA-3400. part number 597-1954-02, copyright ???? 21 Pages. I have scanned, and put them here: www.jcosper.com/heathkit.html Later, James. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 24 19:47:45 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: <20040925000029.RKAB2048.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20040925044247.ESRM1536.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > In early 80's, there WAS a 5" x 9" x bit over 1" thick black toy. Snip > > in different direction so on. A miss, the motor stops LED "ball" > > still glowing. I did recall clearly that LED never ever rebounded > > off the "side wall". > > That was the game "Blip!" by Tomy. I've got one (they're not that hard to > find). > > http://users2.ev1.net/~rik1138/Tomy/Blip.htm YES!! That is it! God, I forgotten it was wind up toy, battery for LED like you said. (!?) Now I remember totally. Each player must press one of three correct white buttons to "whack" LED "ball" at right time. Miss that glowing red "ball", game stops. Red toggle to serve the LED "ball" over to other player. Totally cool that it is mechanical and keep scores is amazing in a small size. > > There was another similar mechanical flat toy but you "steer" the > > race car around the objects on the invisible "belt" and miss them toy > > keep going. Fun stops with flashing LED where racecar "exploded" > > when racecar "bashed" something. > > Mattel Auto Race > http://users2.ev1.net/~rik1138/Mattel/AutoRace.htm Not this one, for sure, I was sure was by Tomy's for race game and casing is black and same size like the "Blip!" The steering wheel is actual tiny 1" thing that rotated back and forth to move race car either way left and right. Found! This one. http://users2.ev1.net/~rik1138/Tomy/Derby.htm Geez, big flashback from early 80's when I saw that "Blip!". :-( ) Thanks, I had trouble finding that with different descriptions in google. I wondered what happened to Tomy company these days. Cheers, Wizard From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 25 00:07:26 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Ampex test card In-Reply-To: <200409241636.09668.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200409241636.09668.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4154FD0E.5090803@mdrconsult.com> Mike Kenzie wrote: > Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > Looking for: PICMG backplane There's been a fair stream of them on eBay, some of them pretty cheap. Search "all categories" instead of "Computers and Networking". The string "Backplane -Compaq -Sun" works for me. Doc From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Sep 25 00:13:33 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Whats a HP1000M? In-Reply-To: <20040925044247.ESRM1536.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: I noticed 14 of these coming up on govt Auction http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=450006&convertTo=USD I'd be interested but they are on the East coast... From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 25 00:26:08 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <20040925001351.2B1693C24@spies.com> References: <20040925001351.2B1693C24@spies.com> Message-ID: <41550170.6050403@mdrconsult.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their > 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I > need to match the paint for the logo restoration. The logo isn't painted on my PDP11V03-L. I have a couple of quick low-light snapshots up, and can take better ones Sunday if you still need them. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Sep 25 00:28:16 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <20040925001351.2B1693C24@spies.com> References: <20040925001351.2B1693C24@spies.com> Message-ID: <415501F0.6050909@mdrconsult.com> Al Kossow wrote: > Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their > 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? I > need to match the paint for the logo restoration. Duhhh, you might need the URL.... http://www.docsbox.net/11-03/ The actual pictures do look a lot better than the thumbnails. Doc From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 25 01:03:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Hardware Maintenance and Training Manual Message-ID: <1096092227.3691.15.camel@fiche.wps.com> The complete thing is scanned and indexed (minimally) at wps.com/projects/LGP-21/Documentation/LGP-21-Maintenance-Training-Manual/ I'm not completely happy with the index, but URLs etc won't change when I fix it. It's not entirely obvious that to see page 6-36, not in the index, for instance, that you can get there by clicking NEXT PAGE on page 6-35. No matter, the scanning is done other than to fix a few crooked pages. If anyone wants a copy send me SASE that'll hold a CD-R and I'll save you the trouble of downloading. From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Sep 25 04:41:00 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: RSTS / Simh disk drive confusion In-Reply-To: <16724.16764.521684.775571@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Similarly, I don't think that RSTS allowed mixing MSCP disks and TMSCP > tapes on the same controller. I don't really know that stuff -- it > may be that no PDP-11 MSCP controller existed that would do disk and > tape on the same controller anyway. Correct. They're functionally different, so cant be mixed. Even the aftermarket controllers with multiple channels (e.g. the Emulex UC08 dual-channel SCSI-to-(T)MSCP) requires one protocol per channel. --f From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 25 04:46:30 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <00df01c4a2e4$9912b600$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:28 AM Subject: RE: archiving as opposed to backing up > > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > To me archives should be made up of just the important stuff, > > if we didn't > > > find it important enough to save it, people 1000 years from now > > will think > > > it is even less important. Who wants to dig through a trillion > > pictures of > > > everyone's pre school finger paintings in an archive our parents put > > > together 1000 years from now? > > Sellam > Well, I for one would be beyond thrilled to see pictures of people > and > Sellam > places and things from 1000 years ago. > > The past, the present, and the future are all part of one continuous, > never ending story. It's up to us to preserve things for those who > come after us. It's up to those who come after us to determine what > they are interested in from the things we leave. > > I suppose I've rambled again...... > Ashley > It comes as no great surprise to find that people on this list dedicated to preserving old computers should also preserve other old items. When they get around to refining the theory of evolution , they may find that the people on this list are descended not from the ape but from the squirrel. :^) Geoff. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 25 05:03:34 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <007901c4a129$a667d450$0500fea9@game><1095918288.3827.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040923030151.051b7d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <016101c4a2eb$4a31abc0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 8:11 AM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > Over 2000 years ago, the ancient Romans & Greeks *knew* the Earth was round > and orbited the sun. However, it seems all references to that knowledge was > unavailable by the 1st millennium, when people once again thought the world > was flat, and stayed that way for over 500 years. Had they access to the > Roman and Greek libraries (assuming they existed, but I'd bet they kept > their written documents somewhere) who knows what tech. advances (or wars > averted) would have been possible. > The library at Alexandria ( I think it was ) was destroyed by fire and a lot of old knowledge in the form of scrolls was lost at that time . Geoff. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 25 06:09:29 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415551E9.4010201@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > There were/are also relays with 2 coils. The idea is that either coil > alone will activate the contacts, but if you energise them both together > (in opposite directions), the magnetic fields cancel out, and the > contacts don't operate. > > And of course there are magnetically-latched relays (effectively SR > flip-flops). > > -tony And slugged relays, with a big metal ring in the coil. These either delay opening or closing, but I can't remember which way round it works. I've got a few from old telephone exchanges - when I was about 12 or 13 I convinced my Dad to take a pickup truck full of BT phone exchange "modules" from the local scrapyard. Gordon. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Sep 25 06:16:42 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: More Commodore PET drives - more help? Message-ID: <20040925111641.CCPT11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >> It looks like the on-board CPU is not running at all. > >I would guess that's likely to be the case (although I've never worked on >this unit). > >In which case I'd start by checking the +5V power rail, then check the >CPU clock and reset pins (make sure the thing isn't held in the reset >state), then see what the aaddres and data lines are doing. All good advise - assuming that it's running (clocked), and the address/data bus looks ok (being driven, no signs of contention etc.), data being fetched from the ROMs, I would probably next check the ROM content against the image on funet (I've seen a number of these ROMs go bad). Opened it up this morning - unfortunately, it is very badly corroded inside, and the drive unit itself shows a LOT of rust. Some of this equipment originally was rescued from a shed which we were told flooded with water every year - one casualty was a 2040 disk unit which has **VERY** badly corroded drives and plenty of rust all around the lower section of the case - we also have a B128 in which the edge connectors and any exposed sections of copper have gone green and fuzzy - not to mention all lables/stickers etc. have disintegrated - amazingly, after an initial cleaning of the worst of it, the machine still works! - one of my upcoming tasks will be to completely clean it up and restore it. I'm guessing this drive must have also been near the bottom of the pile. Board looks not too bad - power supplies check out, after cleaning and reseating all of the socketed chips and connections it still appears completely dead, so now its on to more serious debugging... Replaced ANOTHER 4116 DRAM in a CBM 2001-N last night - this makes 7 or 8 I've changed so far - symptoms are always the same - amount of memory "found" by BASIC differs, usually higher when the machine is cold, and lower if the machine is reset after it warms up (meaning the RAM gets worse after it has been on a while). Fortunately most of them have been able to run BASIC or at least the diagnostic monitor, and a little pokeing and peeking identifies the bit which is affected, allowing me to locate the exact chip without to much trouble. Have also replaced 4-5 2114s - I'm amazed that so many RAMs have gone bad in the Commodore equipment... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 25 06:43:23 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Macintosh Plus for Shipping In-Reply-To: <4154D661.50900@cableone.net> References: <20040924223939.35299.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> <4154D661.50900@cableone.net> Message-ID: <415559DB.8040202@pacbell.net> Based on my estimate of weight, $25 should get it here via either UPS ground or USPS parcel post. If the machine is clean and complete with keyboard and mouse, without screen burn, missing keys, or big scratches, I'll pay up to that. Basically, if it's a well-kept personal machine, as opposed to coming from an office or school environment, it is probably in better condition than what I can easily pick up locally. I'll still pass if anyone else is interested, though. Thanks, --Bill Jim Isbell wrote: > I am in far south Texas. So far one inquiry and no response from him > yet atfter I told him where I was. > > William Maddox wrote: > >> Whereabouts are you? >> >> Frankly, I really don't need another Mac Plus, and >> if anyone else wants it, please let them have it. >> If it's headed for the trash, though, I'll likely >> be willing to save it. >> >> --Bill >> >> >> --- Jim Isbell wrote: >> >> >> >>> I have a Mac Plus that is up for grabs. All you pay >>> is shipping. On Saturday it goes into the trash. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 25 07:35:36 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Metrabyte PC6362 References: <3.0.6.32.20040923164012.008f0b40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <019f01c4a2fc$443fb2a0$0200a8c0@geoff> Searching the uk site for metrabyte pc6362 brings up a 2Mb acrobat file which the search page says has a reference to pc6362. Also a cross - reference table comes up in the faq's for old and new part no's for their boards. The adobe doc. is for the das-temp 32 channel temp. measuring board. - but I couldn't see the reference in it. http://www.keithley.co.uk/main.jsp?action=keithleysearch http://www.keithley.co.uk/main.jsp?action=keithleysearch&searchType=view&cli ckPath=Document+Center&itemType=faq&role=&keywords=metrabyte+pc6362 Nothing in my Keithley book either. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:40 PM Subject: Metrabyte PC6362 > Anybody know what this is for? Roughly 6 x 8"square with LEDs for D0 > through D7 and A0 through A5. Also LEDs for -15VDC, +15VDC and +5VDC. Six > position DIP switch for setting the board address. Only connector is a 50 > pin ribbon cable header. Keithly sells Metrabyte but neither Kiethly or > Metrabyte will give you any information. Good companies NOT to do business > with IMO. > > Joe From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Sep 25 09:10:47 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:30 2005 Subject: Macintosh Plus for Shipping In-Reply-To: <415559DB.8040202@pacbell.net> References: <20040924223939.35299.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> <4154D661.50900@cableone.net> <415559DB.8040202@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <41557C67.9000104@cableone.net> its gone William Maddox wrote: > Based on my estimate of weight, $25 should get it here > via either UPS ground or USPS parcel post. If the > machine is clean and complete with keyboard and mouse, > without screen burn, missing keys, or big scratches, > I'll pay up to that. Basically, if it's a well-kept > personal machine, as opposed to coming from an office > or school environment, it is probably in better condition > than what I can easily pick up locally. I'll still pass > if anyone else is interested, though. > > Thanks, > > --Bill > > Jim Isbell wrote: > >> I am in far south Texas. So far one inquiry and no response from him >> yet atfter I told him where I was. >> >> William Maddox wrote: >> >>> Whereabouts are you? >>> >>> Frankly, I really don't need another Mac Plus, and >>> if anyone else wants it, please let them have it. >>> If it's headed for the trash, though, I'll likely >>> be willing to save it. >>> >>> --Bill >>> >>> >>> --- Jim Isbell wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I have a Mac Plus that is up for grabs. All you pay >>>> is shipping. On Saturday it goes into the trash. >>> > > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 25 11:26:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <016101c4a2eb$4a31abc0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > The library at Alexandria ( I think it was ) was destroyed by fire and a > lot of old knowledge in the form of scrolls was lost at that time . What Happened to the Ancient Library of Alexandria "The Bibliotheca Alexandrina (BA) is organizing an international seminar on the Fate of the Ancient Library of Alexandria entitled What Happened to the Ancient Library of Alexandria?, 26-28 September 2004, at the Bibliotheca Alexandrina Conference Center, East Hall. The seminar will be held within the framework of the Alexandria Project, a research project initiated by the Bibliotheca Alexandrina for the study and documentation of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, Alexandrian scholarship, and other topics related to the history and civilization of ancient Alexandria. "In adopting the fate of the Ancient Library as the seminar's main subject, the BA aims at presenting afresh, a highly specialized discussion and analysis of main sources in their original languages, related to the diverse aspects and episodes of that long disputed topic." http://www.bibalex.org/fateseminar/ If you're going to be anywhere near Egypt this weekend then this would probably be a really cool seminar to attend. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Sep 25 12:26:49 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: More Commodore PET drives - more help? In-Reply-To: <20040925111641.CCPT11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20040925111641.CCPT11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4155AA59.7050004@gjcp.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Replaced ANOTHER 4116 DRAM in a CBM 2001-N last night - this makes 7 or 8 I've > changed so far - symptoms are always the same - amount of memory "found" by BASIC They were always a favourite for dead ZX Spectrums. I got good at identifying the failing chip just by looking at the screen - there would often as not be a one-pixel "pinstripe" across the screen. The "2" in the copyright message was good, if the machine managed to get as far as displaying it. Since the chips ran *slightly* warm normally, and either ran very hot or completely cold when they failed, I could identify them by feel - hold the back of my hand above the memory to make sure one isn't clearly red hot, then feel each one in turn until I found the knackered one. Wasn't often wrong, either. Dead good, that. The things that impress you when you're a spotty teenage computer geek. Gordon. From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Sep 25 13:43:40 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers Message-ID: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> > Imagine implementing this trivial logic: > y1 = a & b; > y2 = a & c; one relay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 25 14:11:36 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> Message-ID: <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Knittel wrote: >> Imagine implementing this trivial logic: > > >> y1 = a & b; >> y2 = a & c; > > > one relay Only 2399 more to go and you can clone this. :) http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part4a.htm From jtinker at coin.org Sat Sep 25 15:53:04 2004 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? In-Reply-To: <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? John Tinker From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Sep 25 16:14:15 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: QBUS boards... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've got some QBUS boards that I'm trying to identify and place a value on. First up is a Parallax graphics board with the number 990-0001 on it. It's got a small cab kit with four BNC connectors on it marked RGB and Sync. There's a 75Ohm terminating resistor on the Sync connector. Next is a board made by MDB Systems that has "MLSI-DR11-W" printed on it. It's got a cab kit with it that has two 37 pin(?) d shell connectors on it. I've got a cab kit for a PDP-11 of some kind (I _think_). It's got two 25 pin d-shell connectors on it marked "A0 (Console)" and A1. Each has a rotary knob underneath for setting a baud rate. A D315 distribution panel. Has four 25 pin d-shell connectors on it. A three board set joined with short IDC cables consisting of one M7169 and two M7168 modules. Any input on this will be greatly appriciated! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 25 16:45:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, John Tinker wrote: > Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I > think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a > 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? Did they even have 74154's in the late 1960s? At any rate, sounds like an interesting project. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Sep 25 17:16:51 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040925181532.02a50d78@192.168.0.1> At 05:45 PM 9/25/2004, Sellam wrote: > > Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I > > think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a > > 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? > >Did they even have 74154's in the late 1960s? At any rate, sounds like an >interesting project. TI TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, 1st edition was copyrighted 1973. It lists the 74154 and other parts up to the 74298. Ed K. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 25 17:55:57 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040925181532.02a50d78@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <4155F77D.4010603@jetnet.ab.ca> Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 05:45 PM 9/25/2004, Sellam wrote: > >> > Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I >> > think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a >> > 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? >> >> Did they even have 74154's in the late 1960s? At any rate, sounds >> like an >> interesting project. > > > TI TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, 1st edition was copyrighted 1973. > It lists the 74154 and other parts up to the 74298. > How come the neat CMOS chips like BCD adders and stuff have never made it to TTL? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 18:04:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <415551E9.4010201@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 25, 4 12:09:29 pm Message-ID: > > And slugged relays, with a big metal ring in the coil. These either > delay opening or closing, but I can't remember which way round it works. I believe (without running upstairs to look in 'Telephony' [1]) that you can arrange for either a slow make or a slow release [1] A great 2-volume set on the UK telephone system, mine is the 1933 edition IIRC. They contain _complete_ schematics for telephone exchanges (Well, OK, the circuit for each line is drawn once, not times, but you know what I mean). They were the books that finally let me understand how telephgone exchanges work, and proved to me the dangers of giving a simplified explanation (in that I'd read plenty of simplified books on how telephone systems work and couldn't make any sense of them). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 18:07:11 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: More Commodore PET drives - more help? In-Reply-To: <20040925111641.CCPT11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Sep 25, 4 07:16:42 am Message-ID: > All good advise - assuming that it's running (clocked), and the address/data > bus looks ok (being driven, no signs of contention etc.), data being fetched > from the ROMs, I would probably next check the ROM content against the image > on funet (I've seen a number of these ROMs go bad). Not a bad idea. Also, if iy uses 2114 RAMs, susepct them on sight ;-). I think these units initialise the I/O devices fairly early on, and the fact that you LEDs are stuck in the wrong state would seem to indicate this is not happening. > > Opened it up this morning - unfortunately, it is very badly corroded inside, > and the drive unit itself shows a LOT of rust. I would now suspect any IC sockets, and mayeb even leakage between PCB tracks. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 25 18:59:44 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: QBUS boards... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409251859.45088.pat@computer-refuge.org> Gene Buckle declared on Saturday 25 September 2004 04:14 pm: > First up is a Parallax graphics board with the number 990-0001 on it. > It's got a small cab kit with four BNC connectors on it marked RGB and > Sync. There's a 75Ohm terminating resistor on the Sync connector. It looks like Parallax produced at least a few different QBUS framebuffer boards. > Next is a board made by MDB Systems that has "MLSI-DR11-W" printed on > it. It's got a cab kit with it that has two 37 pin(?) d shell > connectors on it. It's probably the MDB QBUS equivalent of a DEC DR11-W, which is a "General purpose DMA parallel interface". > I've got a cab kit for a PDP-11 of some kind (I _think_). It's got > two 25 pin d-shell connectors on it marked "A0 (Console)" and A1. > Each has a rotary knob underneath for setting a baud rate. This sounds like the cab kit for an 11/23+, or possibly an 11/53. > A D315 distribution panel. Has four 25 pin d-shell connectors on it. > > A three board set joined with short IDC cables consisting of one M7169 > and two M7168 modules. That's a VCB02 framebuffer card for a QBUS VaxStation. Nothing looks particularly valuable from the list. I'd say $5-10 per item would be a fair value, unless you find someone who has a real need for one of them. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Sep 25 19:01:44 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <013801c4a35c$0ed3d960$0200a8c0@geoff> > http://www.bibalex.org/fateseminar/ > > If you're going to be anywhere near Egypt this weekend then this would > probably be a really cool seminar to attend. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on holiday in Greece , I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt ! # # Looks really good . I suppose a recent modern equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those ancient ^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks for the link. """""""""" Geoff. From jos_dewaal at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 19:34:53 2004 From: jos_dewaal at hotmail.com (jos de waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: On 19/09/2004 Sellam Ismail wrote: >I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine >(presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a >message. I'll try again later today. Sellam, I'm shocked by your lack of tact and respect. No matter how important Don's collection might be in your eyes, you shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his wife and family have just lost him. They probably couldn't care less about what happens to his stuff in the garage at this point. I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in a similar situation. I can't blame her. What do others think of this ? Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest polyphonic ringtones at MSN Mobile Fun! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/ From dan at ekoan.com Sat Sep 25 20:54:47 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Info on Chatsworth MR-500 In-Reply-To: References: <415551E9.4010201@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040925215319.04a44920@mail.marcal.com> I recently acquired a Chatsworth MR 500 card reader. I haven't been able to find much documentation on it. Does anyone have a manual or a pointer to some technical documentation? Cheers, Dan From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 22:11:49 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jos, I think you missed the following email. Stephane From: Vernon Wright Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin I read the list through the digests, and not always frequently. So let me re-introduce myself. I am a past-president of the San Diego Computer Society. In about 1986 I founded Dina-SIG, a special interest group of the San Diego Computer Society. Don Maslin immediately showed up, and we became fast friends and have remained so ever since. I find it difficult to speak of him in the past tense. Don took on a special project for Dina-SIG, and made it his own: the archiving of software for classic computers. I have of course talked with his wife Winnie, and she has asked that people interested in Don's software archives and his hardware collection hold off on contact until further notice through this list. Within a reasonable time I will locate his archives, and I will personally guarantee that the archives will be duplicated and copies deposited with people and institutions which will honor the attitude that Don put into this effort - one of love for old stuff and and of service to the community. In time his hardware collection will also be made available to the community. I ask you to consider Mrs. Maslin's position and not attempt to intervene at this time. Vern Wright vern4wright@yahoo.com On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:34:53 +0000, jos de waal wrote: > > On 19/09/2004 Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine > >(presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a > >message. I'll try again later today. > > Sellam, I'm shocked by your lack of tact and respect. No matter how > important Don's collection might be in your eyes, you shouldn't lose > sight of the fact that his wife and family have just lost him. They > probably couldn't care less about what happens to his stuff in the > garage at this point. > > I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she > would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in > a similar situation. I can't blame her. > > What do others think of this ? > > Greetings, Jos > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get the latest polyphonic ringtones at MSN Mobile Fun! > http://ringtones.msn.co.za/ > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 25 22:22:18 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Whats a HP1000M? References: Message-ID: <000701c4a378$07685ea0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've been looking for some M series for a long time. I need just one, but would take two. Anyone want to go in with me on a bid for them and take the rest? Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 12:13 AM Subject: Whats a HP1000M? > > I noticed 14 of these coming up on govt Auction > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=450006&convertTo=USD > > I'd be interested but they are on the East coast... > > > From jtinker at coin.org Sun Sep 26 00:14:05 2004 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <83CACAYW54PL1U3YRMFTSBAMJFCXS84.4156501d@MOTtds> 9/25/2004 5:45:54 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, John Tinker wrote: > >> Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I >> think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a >> 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? > >Did they even have 74154's in the late 1960s? At any rate, sounds like an >interesting project. Maybe not the late 1960's. And maybe not PE, either. But I definitely saw the article. John Tinker From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Sep 26 00:47:03 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Whats a HP1000M? References: <000701c4a378$07685ea0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000a01c4a38c$3fd8fab0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> put me down for a couple also..... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Whats a HP1000M? > I've been looking for some M series for a long time. I need just one, but > would take two. Anyone want to go in with me on a bid for them and take > the rest? > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 12:13 AM > Subject: Whats a HP1000M? > > >> >> I noticed 14 of these coming up on govt Auction >> >> http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=450006&convertTo=USD >> >> I'd be interested but they are on the East coast... >> >> >> > > > > From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 26 01:15:41 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Sat, 2004-09-25 at 12:11, ben franchuk wrote: > Only 2399 more to go and you can clone this. :) > > http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part4a.htm Are Zuse's machines stored-program? I think he had some odd ideas about stored-program machines and self-modification, like von Neumann did early on. From jos_dewaal at hotmail.com Sun Sep 26 01:25:50 2004 From: jos_dewaal at hotmail.com (jos de waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: On 26/09/2004 Stephane Tsacas wrote: >Jos, I think you missed the following email. >Stephane I think you're missing the point. I was merely pointing out that contacting a family in mourning about such unimportant matters is, in my opinion, pretty tasteless and could cause unwanted effects. Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Easily share your photos and music - get MSN Hotmail Plus! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-xe From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 01:37:50 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > Are Zuse's machines stored-program? I think he had some odd ideas about > stored-program machines and self-modification, like von Neumann did > early on. All machines of that era had too *small* a memory for internal storage of programs, so external ( read manual ) input was needed like paper tape or punched cards or punched film (Zuse). From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 26 01:41:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <013801c4a35c$0ed3d960$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on holiday in Greece , > I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt ! > # # Looks really good . I suppose a recent modern > equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those ancient > ^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks for > the link. > """""""""" I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to be looted while they secured the oil fields. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 26 01:43:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, jos de waal wrote: > What do others think of this ? Why do you find this to be a topic needing to be discussed publicly on the list? I suggest you would have been better served if you wrote to me directly about this. Instead, you've simply pointed out what an ass you are. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 26 01:50:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, jos de waal wrote: > I think you're missing the point. I was merely pointing out that > contacting a family in mourning about such unimportant matters is, > in my opinion, pretty tasteless and could cause unwanted effects. No, I think you're missing the point. To say I have no tact or respect for wanting to preserve the work Don poured the final years of his life into is missing the point. I knew full well the ramifications of calling so shortly (relatively) after someone's passing. I also know full well the ramifications of waiting too long. I'm not suggesting we play "What Would Don Have Wanted?", but what do you think he would've wanted? You owe me an apology. Publicly, since that is how you decided it should be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 26 02:07:24 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Zuse and stored-program Message-ID: <1096182444.3691.59.camel@fiche.wps.com> http://www.epemag.com/zuse/part4a.htm Funny, one of the fore-mentioned URLS on the Z3 state that it wasn't stored-program, but there's also this tantalizing tidbit from the page: "Due to the fact that he wanted to calculate thousands of instructions in a meaningful order, he only used the memory to store values or numbers." I wish I could remember where I read that Zuse thought stored-program and self-modification of programs was, in effect, Wrong, not simply 'not a good technical idea'. The above quote is strange, it implies to me that if programs and data are in the same store, the resulting program would 'get out of order'. We know that of course this IS possible (bugs, self-mod ruins a program, etc) but somehow we've learned to carry on in spite of this horrible limitation. Even von Neumann originally thought self-mod a problem -- if you read the original (not later edits) of the EDVAC paper you'll see he specifies a bit of memory-content to differentiate data vs. program, to prevent programs from changing themselves. It was soon dropped though, I'd have to look up the dates, but by the time anything got built the data/prog bit was gone. JvN got a lot of cred for the 'stored program' concept but I can tell you from reading original materials (1938 - 1945) that it was a very well understood concept at the time (hell it's bloody obvious when you sit down to write up a design; memory is a huge stumble, and re-using your sole store cuts size in half at slight increase in complexity, no matter how insightful you were about what you were doing), he was the first to record it, maybe, but he didn't think it up. Note that he never claimed to have, either. In fact I'd go so far as to say that JvN didn't really get computing *at all*. He was a terrifyingly brilliant man, but he also was savvy enough to not persue areas in which he was not top-of-the-pile; he curtailed his involvement in computing pretty early. The data/prog mem bit thing is in here somewhere http://wps.com/projects/EDVAC/index.html but I don't feel like reading it all again. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that few people, even those BUILDING machines, really had any idea what they really were. Turing knew, and said so -- the ACE REPORT even states that electronic computers don't "do" arithmetic, they "simulate" it, that's good enough, it's all about manipulating symbols, not counting and arithmetic, yet look at the instruction sets of machines ACTUALLY BUILT; they SUCKED at symbol processing. Hell my LGP-21 barely has an AND instruction, no OR, no right-shift (except hardware divide). Look at all the EDVAC-thread machines that *got built*; look at Turing's ACE design vs. what got built in Pilot ACE (they took out all the logical instructions he designed in!) Hardware complexity is not the reason; the low-level logical stuff is the easiest to implement -- it's basically free, without carry an adder does OR, float augend in it does NOT, set carry+float augend it does INCREMENT, 2's-COMPLEMENT, etc etc. In fact, I asked a few of our grad students, programmers all (!) 'what a computer is' and/or 'what makes it unique' and even today, few either have the knowledge or perspective to know it's 'the machine that modifies itself'. Sheesh. From jos_dewaal at hotmail.com Sun Sep 26 02:09:26 2004 From: jos_dewaal at hotmail.com (jos de waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: On 26/09/2004, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > What do others think of this ? > >Why do you find this to be a topic needing to be discussed publicly on the >list? I suggest you would have been better served if you wrote to me >directly about this. Instead, you've simply pointed out what an ass you >are. Well, you brought this discussion to the list. I was just amazed that nobody else commented on it. Besides, I doubt that I have the stomach to send you mail privately, judging from the archives you are not a very gentle person. Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest polyphonic ringtones at MSN Mobile Fun! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/ From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 26 02:10:27 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Sat, 2004-09-25 at 23:37, ben franchuk wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > Are Zuse's machines stored-program? I think he had some odd ideas about > > stored-program machines and self-modification, like von Neumann did > > early on. > > All machines of that era had too *small* a memory for internal storage > of programs, so external ( read manual ) input was needed like paper > tape or punched cards or punched film (Zuse). Eh, that's not a good enough excuse :-) From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Sep 26 02:49:05 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040926004558.084b14e0@mail.zipcon.net> At 12:09 AM 9/26/2004, you wrote: >On 26/09/2004, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> > What do others think of this ? >> >>Why do you find this to be a topic needing to be discussed publicly on the >>list? I suggest you would have been better served if you wrote to me >>directly about this. Instead, you've simply pointed out what an ass you >>are. > >Well, you brought this discussion to the list. I was just amazed >that nobody else commented on it. because many of us knew Don, and preserving his work is pretty much exactly what he would have wanted. >Besides, I doubt that I have the stomach to send you mail privately, >judging from the archives you are not a very gentle person. and posting it to the list and getting yourself flamed here is any better? From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 26 02:40:25 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41567269.2070003@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>And slugged relays, with a big metal ring in the coil. These either >>delay opening or closing, but I can't remember which way round it works. > > > I believe (without running upstairs to look in 'Telephony' [1]) that you > can arrange for either a slow make or a slow release Yes, but I can't remember which end you put the slug at for which action > [1] A great 2-volume set on the UK telephone system, mine is the 1933 > edition IIRC. They contain _complete_ schematics for telephone exchanges > (Well, OK, the circuit for each line is drawn once, not times, but > you know what I mean). They were the books that finally let me understand > how telephgone exchanges work, and proved to me the dangers of giving a > simplified explanation (in that I'd read plenty of simplified books on > how telephone systems work and couldn't make any sense of them). Now, somewhere I have a very old book on telephony and telegraphy that sounds very similar to that. At least, I hope I still have - after my father went silent-key around 10 years ago, it seems that a few people had some novel ideas about what belonged to them (his Bob Dylan lp collection is long gone, for one thing). It had diagrams of the various sections of the exchange, slightly simplified, and then another diagram detailing how they go together (line finders, call routing, stuff like that). Gordon. From hansp at citem.org Sun Sep 26 03:37:34 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 2004-09-25 at 23:37, ben franchuk wrote: >>Tom Jennings wrote: >>>Are Zuse's machines stored-program? >>All machines of that era had too *small* a memory for internal storage >>of programs, so external ( read manual ) input was needed like paper >>tape or punched cards or punched film (Zuse). > Eh, that's not a good enough excuse :-) Indeed, the Manchester Baby machine of 1948 had 32 words of memory, and a 3 bit opcode field, despite this it was fully functional a stored program computer, if somewhat limited in its application. On the Zuse machine, there is a paper by Rojas which discusses how to make it into a general purpose computer : Rojas, Raul: How to make Zuse?s Z3 a Universal Computer. IEEE Annals of Computing, Vol. 20, No. 3, July/Sept. 1998.. This web page also seems apropro : http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/Neumann_vs_Zuse.html -- HansP From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Sep 26 03:34:52 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: Message-ID: <004401c4a3a5$842ba280$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > > Chance would be a fine thing , wife and daughters on holiday in Greece , > > I've got work - currently home alone drinking single malt ! > > # # Looks really good . I suppose a recent modern > > equivalent would be the Taliban destroying those ancient > > ^ Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. Thanks for > > the link. > > """""""""" > > I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to > be looted while they secured the oil fields. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case of tunnel vision. Geoff. From jos_dewaal at hotmail.com Sun Sep 26 05:05:29 2004 From: jos_dewaal at hotmail.com (jos de waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: On 26/09/2004 Geoff Reed wrote: >>Well, you brought this discussion to the list. I was just amazed >>that nobody else commented on it. > >because many of us knew Don, and preserving his work is pretty much exactly >what he would have wanted. I just don't think you should bother a family with issues of this sort so short after someone's passing. Don's wife obviously didn't know anything about his efforts and might not appreciate someone advising her what to do with his collection at this moment. >and posting it to the list and getting yourself flamed here is any better? I don't see why I deserve to be flamed by anybody. Greetings, Jos _________________________________________________________________ Funk up your phone with our wide selection of content! http://ringtones.msn.co.za/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 26 07:14:46 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Pong pong pong... Message-ID: <1096200886.2282.54.camel@weka.localdomain> Still on my Pong trip, here.. :-) Can anyone tell me how the original Atari arcade Pong (and probably the home version too) interacted between the bat and the ball? (Anyone got one they can hook up and try?) I've found one reference that says the bats were split into 8 segments; but when the ball hit the bat, was the resulting direction of travel influenced *only* by the bat segment hit, or also by the direction of travel at the collision point? Presumably if the ball hits the bat at the nearmost end, then the ball is returned in the exact opposite direction (i.e. reflected back along its path by a simple reverse of direction). But what about the other 7 positions? cheers, Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 26 07:38:33 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 available (Norway) Message-ID: <20040926123832.YPCD11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> This just posted in comp.os.cpm: (oh WHY couldn't he have been in Canada!) ------------------------------------------- From: "Alf Jacob Munthe" Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Subject: IMSAI 8080 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 14:18:56 +0200 Organization: PowerTech Information Systems AS Hi! I do have an IMSAI 8080 in very good condition, together with quite a few S-100 cards and of course original handbook and manuals for most of the cards. It is way too heavy to send, and costly, especially to US. But if anybody that reads this can pick it up here in southern Norway, I am willing to sell everything at a very good price. I am cleaning up my estate due to illness and age. Regards, Alf Jacob Munthe, LA6XF -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 26 07:55:20 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Dynalogic/Bytec Hyperion Drives? Message-ID: <20040926125519.YUOY11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Picked up a couple of Hyperions yesterday - if anyone doesn't know what these are, they are the first portable IBM-PC compatible (well - the Hyperion was "mostly" compatible :-) - Made here in Ottawa Canada, they didn't last long due to chronic floppy drive problems and incompatibility issues (and the fact that Compaq came out with a reliable/compatible portable shortly afterward). These two, and another one that I am aware of locally appear to function, but are suffering from the well known "bad floppy syndrome", although one of the units does boot from the B: drive (yes, the hyperion will boot from either drive). Anyone know the details of the floppy drive issues? (This is a well known problem with Hyperions - I just never paid attention to it) Anyone ever fixed a faulty Hyperion drive? Regards, Dave Btw: If anyone needs scans: I got a big load of Hyperion documenation with the machines, including the service manual and Technical Reference manual. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Sep 26 08:05:13 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? References: Message-ID: <001701c4a3cb$a012ed20$0200a8c0@geoff> http://home.gwi.net/~jdebell/pe/PEIntro.htm Above link is for someone assembling an online archive. Geoff. > Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I think), > perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a 74154 4 line > demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? > > John Tinker > > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 26 10:22:05 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409261022.05722.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 26 September 2004 01:25, jos de waal wrote: > On 26/09/2004 Stephane Tsacas wrote: > >Jos, I think you missed the following email. > >Stephane > > I think you're missing the point. I was merely pointing out that > contacting a family in mourning about such unimportant matters is, > in my opinion, pretty tasteless and could cause unwanted effects. Personally, I'd have to disagree, I think that Sellam was doing something that needed to be done. Saving Don's collection of disk images is IMHO fairly important. I don't want to make it seem like I don't care about his family's feelings, but Don had some things that are probably irreplacable. It's importanat that his family knows this, and gets offers for help to sort through his things. A friend of mine has recently passed away from colon cancer, and I've been helping his parents (he had no children) sort through his computer stuff. Fortunately, his parents had some idea that things had some value, and are trying to give away or donate as much of his stuff as they can, and only throwing things that none of us can attach any worth to. I hope someone decides to step forward and offer the same "boot disk" service to replace what he did. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Sep 26 10:27:38 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Done (was: Re: Made first phone call) In-Reply-To: <200409261022.05722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: People, Please stop the latest course of this thread, it's been taken off-list. Normal listmember quibbeling will again resume :) --f From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Sun Sep 26 10:42:16 2004 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... Message-ID: <20040926154216.98846.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> First: I did not forget the terminals I announced some time ago. Actually I?m looking for a cheap way to ship them to the fellows who were interested. As I am quite busy at work at the moment, this will take some time ? please excuse that. My main question(s) ? I hope it?s ?on-topic?: I obtained a nice IBM AS/400 9404 System. It was cheap and is in nice condition, so I could not resist. It consists of two huge enclosurements. One (I?ll call it the left one) is loaded with 3 or 4 nice and big harddisks. The second one contains the logic-boards, three harddisks, an 8 inch diskette and a tape drive. Both boxes have some batteries built in. The two boxes are interconnected with 3 cables. In the right box some options(?) are installed: Fist slot (left): Nr. 2700 Second slot (from the upper position to the lowest): ??? (looks like the following ), 6151, 6136. Underneath the small modules I can read 2615. 3rd slot: 3120 4th slot: 2533 It?d be nice if you cold help me out a bit with these numbers. I could not really find out what these are. Could somebody please identify them? I also got a 3197 terminal, twinax expansion boxes (2x 4 ports) and some cables with the machine. My first question: How do I connect the terminal correctly? I assume it plugs into port 0 for system console. Are the cables critical, could I use cat 5? I have not enough connectors I?d be happy if anyone could supply some cheap connectors (male) and Infos about the twinax cabling sheme, especially how the pinout of the connectors and how I have to connect the console terminal I have no docs for the machine, but it should be loaded with an OS. When I turn it on it seems to IPL. Is there any Info available online? I think, I need some information about the OS too (at the back of the machine I can read ?Release Level 2? on a sticker. Somebody told me the OS-License is tied to the machine? If so, could someone provide me some backup copies of the system disks? I know most people would throw these machines out, but I want to keep it as it is one of the earlier AS/400 systems. I could make pictures if anyone needs it. Thank you for any information, Best regards, Wolfgang ===== ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang@eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 100MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de From paulpenn at knology.net Sun Sep 26 10:51:02 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Heathkit ETA-3400 Modifications References: <200409242116267.SM00176@work3> Message-ID: <005e01c4a3e0$a060d980$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> James; Thanks for scanning these and making them available. Nice job on the scans. Paul A. Pennington Augusta, Georgia From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Sep 26 11:16:59 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <41567269.2070003@gjcp.net> References: <41567269.2070003@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> And slugged relays, with a big metal ring in the coil. These either delay >>> opening or closing, but I can't remember which way round it works. >> >> >> I believe (without running upstairs to look in 'Telephony' [1]) that you >> can arrange for either a slow make or a slow release > > Yes, but I can't remember which end you put the slug at for which action > Normally I'd research this and have the detailed info before responding, *especially* since I just recommended a lot of books on the Subject - but after a cursory Google and skimmming thru the texts that are near to hand, I can't find the actual detailed descriptions of the various electromechanical 'delay' schemes. From (faded) memory: If a copper ring is placed over the relay solenoid near the end, it acts as a transformer, and when the current is removed, it sets up a 'flux resonance' of sorts, acting to keep the magnetic field alive - this action decays over a period determined by the various parameters and physical layout of the relay - so the device delays it's drop-out for X milliseconds after the excitation voltage drops. NOW: I seem to recall that which 'end' of the coil (base or springs) has an effect, and I *think* that the opposite effect - delayed pull-in - can be gotten by using a soft iron ring in place of copper - the iron magnetization current is different from the copper coil windings and thus absorbs energy during the application of excitation current. Like Tony, I have the Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 1, No. 1 (1922) thru Vol 47 (1968)... BUT I haven't the time/space/energy right now to go plowing thru all that just to look this up... maybe this evening , *if* the project I'm working on is successful.... Cheers John >> [1] A great 2-volume set on the UK telephone system, mine is the 1933 >> edition IIRC. They contain _complete_ schematics for telephone exchanges >> (Well, OK, the circuit for each line is drawn once, not times, but you >> know what I mean). They were the books that finally let me understand how >> telephgone exchanges work, and proved to me the dangers of giving a >> simplified explanation (in that I'd read plenty of simplified books on how >> telephone systems work and couldn't make any sense of them). > > Now, somewhere I have a very old book on telephony and telegraphy that sounds > very similar to that. At least, I hope I still have - after my father went > silent-key around 10 years ago, it seems that a few people had some novel > ideas about what belonged to them (his Bob Dylan lp collection is long gone, > for one thing). It had diagrams of the various sections of the exchange, > slightly simplified, and then another diagram detailing how they go together > (line finders, call routing, stuff like that). > > Gordon. > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Sep 26 12:01:51 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: <4156F5FF.59E9F794@rain.org> I think Sellam absolutely did the right thing!!! A number of people here in Santa Barbara have passed away with significant classic computer related items. For one example, many of the IBM 1130 and Burroughs manuals that Al has scanned came from someone who had worked with these things for close to 40 years. *ALL* of those manuals were destined for the recycle bin. The only reason they got saved was a friend of mine called me after he saw them when he was picking up other equipment there. I called his wife and was invited to come over and take what I wanted (I took everything!) When I saw her again a couple of months ago, his wife was very happy to hear that they have proved useful to others. A friend of mine passed away many years ago, and I was called to see if I would help with the stuff. He had been involved with microcomputers from the first, and his father knew nothing of the value of this stuff. Of course, at that point in time, a lot of classic stuff was still deemed junk and went to that great storage space in the sky. Out of that came an almost complete set of (can't remember the name right now) cassette programs for the TRS-80 that were mailed out on a subscription basis along with many of the docs and associated correspondence (he was also an editor for a bit.) There were also boxes of documentation for other now classic computers. There are many such stories by myself and others on this list. I don't know where you and your wife are coming from, but the main focus of most of us on this list is saving classic computer related hardware, software, docs, etc. And many of us have irreplaceable items as most likely Don did. Again, Sellam did the right thing, and I am reasonably sure it was also what Don would have wanted. > On 19/09/2004 Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I made an initial phone call to Don's number and got an answering machine > >(presumably Don's voice is still on the OGM). I chose not to leave a > >message. I'll try again later today. > > Sellam, I'm shocked by your lack of tact and respect. No matter how > important Don's collection might be in your eyes, you shouldn't lose > sight of the fact that his wife and family have just lost him. They > probably couldn't care less about what happens to his stuff in the > garage at this point. > > I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she > would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in > a similar situation. I can't blame her. > > What do others think of this ? > > Greetings, Jos From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 12:08:43 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Relay computers - telephone type In-Reply-To: References: <41567269.2070003@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040926130136.0330e1a0@mail.earthlink.net> another comment about telephone relays that I played with when I was twelve (38 years ago) had a built in speed limitation. You could connect them up in a buzzer fashion (power to coil through one of the contact sets) and the relay would always make connect to the other pole of the switch and the effect was to oscillate at around 10hz or so. You could not make them buzz as you can normal relays. This guaranteed make capability was handy in creating what I called a holding circuit. You could power the relay on and use one contact set to connect power up to make the relay latch. best regards, Steve Thatcher From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 12:12:54 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> Message-ID: <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Hans B PUFAL wrote: >> Eh, that's not a good enough excuse :-) umm... It was after midnight I did not want to try think much more. Now re-reading Zuse again you find out he was a mechanical minded person rather than pure science or math. To me his computing engine was mechanical rather than electronic ( tubes ) and much a greater advent guenus in that field compared to computing in general. Also the fact that Germany lost the war, did not improve matters. > Indeed, the Manchester Baby machine of 1948 had 32 words of memory, and > a 3 bit opcode field, despite this it was fully functional a stored > program computer, if somewhat limited in its application. So why does the Baby Emulator need Win/95 to run? :) > On the Zuse machine, there is a paper by Rojas which discusses how to > make it into a general purpose computer : I am more happy just to find out how you used them and what the instruction set was? PS. I thinking of building a smaller decimal machine ( 6 digits ) and wondering where a good source of info on the web with the way to handle the math. BCD? Execess 3, some other codeing? Ben. PS. *Answer* You can have a bit mapped display to get the Scope tube display. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 26 12:37:58 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Dynalogic/Bytec Hyperion Drives? Message-ID: <20040926173757.CGCH14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >These two, and another one that I am aware of locally >appear to function, but are suffering from the well known >"bad floppy syndrome", although one of the units does >boot from the B: drive (yes, the hyperion will boot from >either drive). > >Anyone know the details of the floppy drive issues? >(This is a well known problem with Hyperions - I just > never paid attention to it) >Anyone ever fixed a faulty Hyperion drive? The last couple of hours have yielded very satisfying results ... both machines and all four disk drives are now humming along perfectly.... The problem turned out to be very simple - the drives have a head load solinoid, and it was sticking - kept the heads from contacting the media. A bit of cleaning and very light lubrication and all appears to be well. More of a problem getting the drives out than actually fixing them - I read somewhere that one of the big makers had looked at the Hyperion and decided to build their own due to "concerns regarding servicability". I would have to agree with that! I wonder if this is the issue which earned the drives the reputation as being highly unreliable.... ??? Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aek at spies.com Sun Sep 26 13:19:45 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Gary Oliver lately? Message-ID: <20040926181945.CB56D3C94@spies.com> Last email I received from him was in January, and the past couple of emails over a few weeks have gone unanswered. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 26 13:33:30 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:31 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <90789423-0FEA-11D9-8546-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 26, 2004, at 10:12 AM, ben franchuk wrote: > PS. I thinking of building a smaller decimal machine ( 6 digits ) and > wondering > where a good source of info on the web with the way to handle the math. > BCD? Execess 3, some other codeing? > > Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 26 13:51:21 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <90789423-0FEA-11D9-8546-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >>> Ron wrote.... >>> Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) Who EVER implied a relation between decimal representation and ascii representation?????????? David. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Sep 26 13:40:46 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: XP OS and Netscape OT Message-ID: <41570D2E.1060106@cableone.net> This is off the topic of Classic Computers but in 10 years it will be on topic. I just want to get some answers NOW so that maybe this computer will be around in 10 years. I run XP and Netscape 7.2 I would like to make a backup on CD-RW once a month. In the old days when storage space was precious there were programs that allowed you to backup ONLY the files on the computer that had been updated or added since the last backup. I would like to do the same but haven't found the method. OR in the alternative, I would like to do a FULL backup to a second HD that WOULD BE BOOTABLE by just swapping the HD when the main drive craters, which seems to be the main failure I have, about once every two years. Secondly I would like to know how the save on a floppy or CD all my Netscape email archives and address book and Web Bookmarks and then how to merge them BACK into a new install of Netscape without erasing what is already there. The last time my HD cratered I had saved the address book but nothing else but I could never get it back on to the new install. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Sep 26 13:41:41 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <200409261022.05722.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200409261022.05722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <41570D65.1090700@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I hope someone decides to step forward and offer the same "boot disk" > service to replace what he did. A friend who is no longer subscribed to CC but who knew of Don's work has offered to host or mirror the image collection at no charge. He has a T1 for personal use and already manages several commercial archives and websites, so has the qualifications to do the job. He also asked me to tender the offer but not mention his name till it's known that he's needed. Doc From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Sep 26 13:59:43 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: XP OS and Netscape OT In-Reply-To: <41570D2E.1060106@cableone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040926144554.03ad5740@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Isbell may have mentioned these words: >This is off the topic of Classic Computers but in 10 years it will be on >topic. I just want to get some answers NOW so that maybe this computer >will be around in 10 years. > >I run XP... My condolences... ;-) >I would like to make a backup on CD-RW once a month. In the old days when >storage space was precious there were programs that allowed you to backup >ONLY the files on the computer that had been updated or added since the >last backup. Most *real* backup programs (read: not M$) will still do that, but they usually cost a pretty penny themselves... I don't know if there are any winders freeware proggies that can do this that are any good. > I would like to do the same but haven't found the method. OR in the > alternative, I would like to do a FULL backup to a second HD that WOULD > BE BOOTABLE by just swapping the HD when the main drive craters, which > seems to be the main failure I have, about once every two years. Norton Ghost. I make periodic backups of my system like this all the time. I ghost my entire drive to a ghost image, and burn it to a bootable DVD. If the machine goes TU, I replace the drive, boot from DVD, and restore the system to a known-good state. Drive to drive is even easier... (just make sure the main drive & backup drive aren't on the same chain, as it'll take quite a bit longer.) There may be other programs that can do this (I think the makers of Partition Magic have a program that works similarly) -- I cannot speak for those, I've only used Ghost. >Secondly I would like to know how the save on a floppy or CD all my >Netscape email archives and address book and Web Bookmarks and then how >to merge them BACK into a new install of Netscape without erasing what is >already there. The last time my HD cratered I had saved the address book >but nothing else but I could never get it back on to the new install. Why would you need to 'merge' them in? If you're doing a fresh install, set up your email and before checking your mail, restore the datafiles (bookmarks, etc.) in the directory that Nutscrape makes. You don't *really* need Nutscrape's default bookmarks, eh? If you're using ghost, every email you had before your HD cratered will still be there. (Of course, anything you had since your last backup will be *poofed*.) [[ If you ever do need to 'merge' you're email, just concatenate the files - Nutscrape uses standard mbox files to store the mail. Bookmarks & address book are a different critter. The bookmarks are HTML, so you'd prolly have to cut-n-paste between two instances of text editor. I have never used an address book, so I can't comment on that. ]] If it's important, I *never* save it under the desktop or 'default' locations on the HD. Since the Win3.1 [1] daze, I've always created a separate directory directly off the root dir, called !merch. (The bang makes it "float" to the top of any alphabetized directory listing) and put subdirs there (dox, spreadsheets, pix, etc...) That way, I have 1 "easy to find" directory to back up and I know everything I need to save is there. How to change the default save directory in whatever programs you use I'll leave as an exercise to the reader... ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Why Win3.1? Before that, I never kept anything important on my IBMish critter so I never worried about backups - everything was stored on floppy on my Tandy CoCo3. So I lost a few game save files. "big whoop." ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 26 14:08:25 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: QBUS boards... In-Reply-To: <200409251859.45088.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150600.0334dc08@192.168.0.1> At 07:59 PM 9/25/2004, you wrote: >Nothing looks particularly valuable from the list. I'd say $5-10 per >item would be a fair value, unless you find someone who has a real need >for one of them. Ditto, except for the DR11-W. People are still doing high speed data transfer to/from PDP11's and might pay a premium for that board. Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 26 14:20:21 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <004401c4a3a5$842ba280$0200a8c0@geoff> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926151617.0334dd50@192.168.0.1> At 04:34 AM 9/26/2004, you wrote: > > I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to > > be looted while they secured the oil fields. > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---- >That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case >of tunnel vision. So, if your house was burning you'd run in and rescue your classic computer on the first trip and your daughter on the second trip? The Iraqi's will receive a great deal more benefit from the oil than the museums. Oh, and who was it that was looting the museums? Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 26 14:04:32 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? In-Reply-To: <4155F77D.4010603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040925181532.02a50d78@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150327.02ef8e50@192.168.0.1> At 06:55 PM 9/25/2004, Ben wrote: >>> > Does anyone remember a construction project from Popular Electronics (I >>> > think), perhaps in the late '60's, that made a simple processor from a >>> > 74154 4 line demultiplexer and a handful of diodes? >>> >>>Did they even have 74154's in the late 1960s? At any rate, sounds like an >>>interesting project. >> >>TI TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, 1st edition was copyrighted 1973. >>It lists the 74154 and other parts up to the 74298. >How come the neat CMOS chips like BCD adders and stuff have never made it >to TTL? Probably because TTL was a step backwards. I use 74HCxxx for my stuff now. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 14:34:58 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: <1096200886.2282.54.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096200886.2282.54.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040926123332.U69032@shell.lmi.net> If you really want a mechanical version, howzbout using a large sheet of plywood, a small plastic ball, and handheld paddles? From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 26 14:54:35 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: QBUS boards... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150600.0334dc08@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150600.0334dc08@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200409261454.35790.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ed Kelleher declared on Sunday 26 September 2004 02:08 pm: > At 07:59 PM 9/25/2004, you wrote: > >Nothing looks particularly valuable from the list. I'd say $5-10 per > >item would be a fair value, unless you find someone who has a real > > need for one of them. > > Ditto, except for the DR11-W. > People are still doing high speed data transfer to/from PDP11's and > might pay a premium for that board. True, but it is an MDB part, not a DEC part, and you might have trouble finding docs for setting the jumpers, etc. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 26 14:49:12 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 26, 2004, at 11:51 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>> Ron wrote.... >>>> Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) > > > Who EVER implied a relation between decimal representation and ascii > representation?????????? > > David. > > no one... just me just now... Didn't and older IBM machine store numbers digit by digit in consecutive words (allowing you to setup integers as long/wide as you needed) ? From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Sep 26 14:51:06 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: QBUS boards... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150600.0334dc08@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Ditto, except for the DR11-W. > People are still doing high speed data transfer to/from PDP11's and might > pay a premium for that board. That's good to know, I have about 30 of em ;) --f From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 15:43:55 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> <90789423-0FEA-11D9-8546-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41572A0B.7020308@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Sep 26, 2004, at 10:12 AM, ben franchuk wrote: > >> PS. I thinking of building a smaller decimal machine ( 6 digits ) and >> wondering >> where a good source of info on the web with the way to handle the math. >> BCD? Execess 3, some other codeing? >> >> > > Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) > .-- . .... .- ...- . -- --- .-. ... . -.-. --- -.. . :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 16:12:17 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415730B1.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > no one... just me just now... Didn't and older IBM machine store > numbers digit > by digit in consecutive words (allowing you to setup integers as > long/wide as you > needed) ? The IBM 1620 did that. Mind you back then you used about 10 digits for most math. Simh will emulate that machine but I don't think there is any software ( assembler / fortran II ) around still for that machine. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 16:15:08 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: simple processor from 74154? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040925181532.02a50d78@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20040926150327.02ef8e50@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <4157315C.5060704@jetnet.ab.ca> Ed Kelleher wrote: > Probably because TTL was a step backwards. > I use 74HCxxx for my stuff now. Umm since I planned to build a computer in my youth ( *youth* what is that ) I am trying to stay with parts in the 1974-1978 time frame. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Sep 26 16:51:33 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: <20040926123332.U69032@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> If you really want a mechanical version, howzbout using a >>> large sheet of plywood, a small plastic ball, and handheld paddles? >>> I heard some references to this type of system, while it seems rather primitive I am considering doing further research with the goal of (possibly) implementing such a system if the materials are still available. My biggest concern before embarking on such an endeavor is that I can find no reference to what type of power was required for this system.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 16:51:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <415730B1.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415730B1.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040926144745.Q72540@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > The IBM 1620 did that. Mind you back then you used about > 10 digits for most math. Simh will emulate that machine but I > don't think there is any software ( assembler / fortran II ) around still > for that machine. The card cabinets that were dumpstered at my office two years ago included PDQ FORTRAN for the 1620 and a 1401 emulator for the 1620. From mcesari at comcast.net Sun Sep 26 17:07:01 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: 1892 calculator on epay Message-ID: <6466BDDC-1008-11D9-93FC-000A956B167C@comcast.net> This looks neat. This guy also has a 1920's "addometer" and a 1890 Stephenson adder. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&category=1247&item=2272912817&rd=1 I'm not affiliated with seller. Mike From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 17:27:23 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong References: Message-ID: <4157424B.90205@jetnet.ab.ca> David V. Corbin wrote: > I heard some references to this type of system, while it seems rather > primitive I am considering doing further research with the goal of > (possibly) implementing such a system if the materials are still available. > My biggest concern before embarking on such an endeavor is that I can find > no reference to what type of power was required for this system.... I have heard reports that solar power is used in part, since on rainy or snowy days the system is down to do visible lack of operation at this time. Supplimental energy has been known in the Candy Bars or Jolt Cola but this effect is only for a short time. Ben. From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Sep 26 17:44:47 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > I heard some references to this type of system, while it seems rather > primitive I am considering doing further research with the goal of > (possibly) implementing such a system if the materials are still available. > My biggest concern before embarking on such an endeavor is that I can find > no reference to what type of power was required for this system.... Power? A case of Red Bull. --f From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 26 17:47:03 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415730B1.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040926144745.Q72540@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <415746E7.6010009@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > The card cabinets that were dumpstered at my office two years > ago included PDQ FORTRAN for the 1620 and a 1401 emulator for the 1620. > Well get them read soon! From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Sep 26 17:56:49 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: References: <20040926123332.U69032@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040926225649.GA30135@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Sep 26, 2004 at 05:51:33PM -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > >> Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> If you really want a mechanical version, howzbout using a > >>> large sheet of plywood, a small plastic ball, and handheld paddles? > > I heard some references to this type of system, while it seems rather > primitive I am considering doing further research with the goal of > (possibly) implementing such a system if the materials are still available. > My biggest concern before embarking on such an endeavor is that I can find > no reference to what type of power was required for this system.... An inefficient chemical reaction powers the analog feedback loop and ball-return mechanism. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Sep-2004 22:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.5 F (-61.4 C) Windchill -115.8 F (-82.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 039 Barometer 677.9 mb (10703. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Sep 26 18:26:42 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926192554.030d1cd8@192.168.0.1> At 06:44 PM 9/26/2004, you wrote: > > I heard some references to this type of system, while it seems rather > > primitive I am considering doing further research with the goal of > > (possibly) implementing such a system if the materials are still available. > > My biggest concern before embarking on such an endeavor is that I can find > > no reference to what type of power was required for this system.... > >Power? A case of Red Bull. Red Bull Beans? Ed K. From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Sep 26 18:47:34 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> And slugged relays, with a big metal ring in the coil. These either delay > >>> opening or closing, but I can't remember which way round it works. > >> > >> > >> I believe (without running upstairs to look in 'Telephony' [1]) that you > >> can arrange for either a slow make or a slow release > > > > Yes, but I can't remember which end you put the slug at for which action > > > According to the Engineering Relay Handbook, slugs at the armature end delay both pickup and dropout, while slugs at the heel end have little effect on pickup, but delay dropout. The slugs function as a shorted turn which will generate an EMF on changing magnetic flux and resulting current will oppose (Lenz's law) the applied field until the resistance in the slug cause the current to decay. Peter Wallace From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 26 18:49:22 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <4156F5FF.59E9F794@rain.org> References: <4156F5FF.59E9F794@rain.org> Message-ID: <1096242561.3691.67.camel@fiche.wps.com> I also think the should-have/should-not portion of this thread go offline, but let's all take this as a reminder that ALL OF US should have at least a simple will or letter-of-intent as to what to do with anything of value that friends, family or spousal-units might not know about (or care about). Even if you're 20, you can get hit by a truck! Even a simple non-legally-binding letter, a "README", in some major place will probably be 1000% better than nothing. Even a simple list of friends and/or places, "please have David, Edgar, Mark, etc decide what should go where" is a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Sep 26 18:48:47 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926192554.030d1cd8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >Power? A case of Red Bull. > > Red Bull Beans? Oh. No. In Europe, Red Bull is a fairly famous high-energy drink :) --f From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 19:01:11 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <415746E7.6010009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415730B1.3060102@jetnet.ab.ca> <20040926144745.Q72540@shell.lmi.net> <415746E7.6010009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040926164937.C72540@shell.lmi.net> > > The card cabinets that were dumpstered at my office two years > > ago included PDQ FORTRAN for the 1620 and a 1401 emulator for the 1620. On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Well get them read soon! Will NEVER be able to read them. I can provide you with the names of the college administrators who were responsible for the destruction, which also included more than a dozen office-supply-cabinets full of collectible computer stuff and personal property, and bookcases full of my old computer magazines. One of the other instructors got in major trouble (they tried to arrest him!) for trying to rescue some of the stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mahoneyb at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 19:11:31 2004 From: mahoneyb at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Paul Kondig and Jerome Fine and others- collector's list Message-ID: <5e98134c04092617112462162a@mail.gmail.com> A short update on the collector's list which I maintain here : http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/ (Paul and Jerome, if you read this, I need your current email address as the ones I have keep getting bounced.) If other collectors want to be on this list, check it out to see if it is in a format you wish to be associated with, and email me here : antiquecomputers@hotmail.com Don't reply to the list or to this address (I'll miss it) with a complete listing of your address, email, phone number (if you want) and list of interests in the computer collecting area. Thanks. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming. BM From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Sep 26 19:30:23 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: PING Ed Sharpe Message-ID: Please contact me privately *off-list* - thank you. Cheers John From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 26 20:13:47 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <41570D65.1090700@mdrconsult.com> References: <200409261022.05722.pat@computer-refuge.org> <41570D65.1090700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040926180506.Q72540@shell.lmi.net> When I die, I hope that y'all contact my friends and relatives immediately. The executor of my will would prefer that you bring a big truck, and/or provide dumpsters. If you don't know me well enough to know who to contact, write to deadguy@xenosoft.com -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From dmhills at attglobal.net Sun Sep 26 20:21:55 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <20040926154216.98846.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > >It d be nice if you cold help me out a bit with these numbers. I could >not really find out what these are. Could somebody please identify >them? Sorry, too many years have passed... I can't remember. Try here: http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/support/iseries/index.html >I also got a 3197 terminal, twinax expansion boxes (2x 4 ports) and >some cables with the machine. My first question: How do I connect the >terminal correctly? I assume it plugs into port 0 for system console. >Are the cables critical, could I use cat 5? I have not enough >connectors I d be happy if anyone could supply some cheap connectors >(male) and Infos about the twinax cabling sheme, especially how the >pinout of the connectors and how I have to connect the console >terminal Start with the 3197 terminal. It will either have 1 or 2 twinax ports. If two, just connect a twinax cable between port 1 on the terminal and port 0 on the AS/400. If one, you will need a "t-cable" to connect to it to provide the two ports. Twinax is somewhat like old 10base-2 (coax) Ethernet, where the terminals are "daisy chained" and the end of the cable is terminated. With 10base2 the terminator was a separate item, but with twinax it is built into the device or T-cable - examine it carefully, you will see a small plunger on port 2 which switches out the terminator when a cable is screwed in to extend the chain. You can use CAT 5 with special baluns and filters, but only for short runs. The data rate is only 1 MB/sec but it is susceptible to reflections if the wrong cable is used or it is not properly terminated, even in short runs. Properly run and terminated twinax will work over runs up to 1 mile long. The actual data stream is pure SDLC protocol in multi-point mode - each terminal polled in turn by the controller in the system unit. >I have no docs for the machine, but it should be loaded with an OS. >When I turn it on it seems to IPL. Is there any Info available online? >I think, I need some information about the OS too (at the back of the >machine I can read Release Level 2 on a sticker. Somebody told me the >OS-License is tied to the machine? If so, could someone provide me some >backup copies of the system disks? The OS license is tied to both the machine and the customer. I seem to recall it is a monthly charge, no pay means no valid license. There is no other OS than OS/400, IBM did publish full specs to allow anyone to write their own OS but no-one ever did. The system software comes on tape (QIC-120 or 9-track, depending on the drive in your machine). Some microcode and diagnostics come on 8 inch diskette. Note: Don't just power it off while running after it has IPLed. You'll be in for a very long (up to a full day in some cases) rebuild phase on next power up. That's why many AS/400 systems had battery backup like yours, so they could be shut down properly if there was a power failure. I think I remember the command... PWRDWNSYS *IMMEDIATE Good luck, the AS/400 and OS is different from just about any other machine/OS you may have seen. It's actually quite simple and logical to use, provided you are not familiar with operating other OSes. It is an object oriented system, and with no concept of disks or files. Everything is an object with attributes, and all objects are conceptually in main memory at all times (64 bit address space, so plenty of room). Each sector on the hard disks has its own 64-bit beginning address - each sector is formatted to 520 bytes instead of 512 to provide room for the address. The system maintains tables of addresses versus disk location, and it is these tables that take a long time to rebuild after a forced power off. You really should try to get the manuals, there is online help but the manuals will provide a lot of background information. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 26 16:13:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Pong In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > > >Power? A case of Red Bull. > > > > Red Bull Beans? > Oh. No. In Europe, Red Bull is a fairly famous high-energy > drink :) Rockstar is way better. Twice the juice. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 27 00:23:38 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: References: <20040926154216.98846.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927011541.00ae4e48@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Don Hills may have mentioned these words: >Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: [snippety] >You can use CAT 5 with special baluns and filters, but only for short runs. Most (all?) Cat5 baluns use pins 4 & 5 for this run -- making sure that pair is part of a twisted pair will help a *lot*. Good news: You could even make an Ethernet/Twinax single jack, if you're not running faster than 100Mbps ethernet, as they run 1/2 & 3/6 for their pairs -- just use 4/5 for twinax. Bad news: *Most* pre-built cables don't follow the standard as to where the twisted pairs should be - most just go 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - 7/8 - and that's bad for both Ethernet & twinax. You'll wanna punch down and/or build your own cables if you're going to do this. [snip] >Note: Don't just power it off while running after it has IPLed. You'll be in >for a very long (up to a full day in some cases) rebuild phase on next power >up. That's why many AS/400 systems had battery backup like yours, so they >could be shut down properly if there was a power failure. I think I remember >the command... PWRDWNSYS *IMMEDIATE Amazingly, that's one of the (if not *the*) most damaging commands to the system... and it's the *first* one you read about in the IBM manuals... (well, the ones I read, anyway)! Anywho, HTH! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 27 01:19:47 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: <0409270619.AA18264@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jos de waal wrote: > I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she > would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in > a similar situation. I can't blame her. Have you instantly divorced her after hearing that in order to ensure the safety of your collection? I can't understand why everyone here is having so much difficulty with their wives. Why did you marry them in the first place? Why in the world would you want to marry someone who has no respect for your most important Life's Work? I would never even *date* a woman who does not share my most core beliefs, and she must agree to protect our property with her life before there can be any talk of marriage. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 27 01:46:56 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <0409270646.AA18445@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to > > be looted while they secured the oil fields. > [...] > That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case > of tunnel vision. It *WAS* deliberate. It was the actual reason for the whole war. The war was not about oil: Iraq under Saddam was producing a lot more oil than it does now, and They don't need that oil in the first place since they have Zero Point Energy technology in Area 51. The war was about Eden (Iraq's original ancient name), about the Navel of the Earth, and about control over the entire planet and beyond, over the rest of the solar system. They wanted Saddam out because he was trying to bring the Anunnaki back to Earth. He was able to reestablish communication with them by undigging and reactivating the interplanetary communication equipment they left there. The entire war was about stopping the return of the true original gods and goddesses and suppressing the ancient advanced technologies and their technical documentation and historical records, which is what they stole from the Baghdad Museum. MS, exopolitical loyalist and friend of Anunnaki, and by association of Saddam Hussein. Long live Saddam! http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 27 01:51:29 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call References: <4156F5FF.59E9F794@rain.org> <1096242561.3691.67.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <005801c4a45e$6af1d050$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Made first phone call > I also think the should-have/should-not portion of this thread go > offline, but let's all take this as a reminder that ALL OF US should > have at least a simple will or letter-of-intent as to what to do with > anything of value that friends, family or spousal-units might not know > about (or care about). Even if you're 20, you can get hit by a truck! > > Even a simple non-legally-binding letter, a "README", in some major > place will probably be 1000% better than nothing. > > Even a simple list of friends and/or places, "please have David, Edgar, > Mark, etc decide what should go where" is a hell of a lot better than > nothing at all. > > If you have a sizeable collection you should document most of it in a spreadsheet. Anything of exceptional value should have a file with descriptions and pictures (so your relatives know what it looks like!) along with a baseline for value. There should be a list of what is to be sold, specific items going to specific people (phone numbers would be helpful here), and then a list of people to pick over the remains and a list of computer museums that can use your spreadsheet to see if there is anything they could use. If you don't have the time to do any of this then expect it either to hit ebay or the landfill when you are gone. The last thing you want to leave somebody is an undocumented mess that will cost them money to dispose of (monitors cost money to recycle). Oh, if you are the type to borrow equipment, books, magazines, etc you need some way to let others know to send those items back since they are not yours. Personally my heirs could keep what they want and dump the rest at a thrift store, maybe somebody will get a good deal there and brighten their day. Nothing I collect (computer wise anyway) is truly rare or has a high ebay value individually to be worried about it. Most people would be too busy grabbing my coin collection and IRA account to worry about the computers at all. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 27 02:08:25 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up Message-ID: <0409270708.AA18605@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ed Kelleher wrote: > The Iraqi's will receive a great deal more benefit from the oil than the > museums. Iraqis maybe, but not the humanity. The secret tablets and hi-tech artifacts from Eden looted from that museum were this planet's greatest treasure. > Oh, and who was it that was looting the museums? Special Ops who knew exactly what they were doing, who passed up very beautiful and expensive golden statues and other very valuable artifacts of the mundane kind and went straight for the ancient extraterrestrial stuff in the basement. They also took the extra effort to destroy the museum computers and CDs with catalogs so no one can figure out just what they stole. They also had keys and codes to safes, office locks, etc., so they were pros with inside access. MS From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 27 02:10:06 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040926151617.0334dd50@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <006501c4a461$04d5a5f0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: Re: archiving as opposed to backing up > At 04:34 AM 9/26/2004, you wrote: > > > I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to > > > be looted while they secured the oil fields. > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > >Festival > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- > >That was possibly negligent and unthinking rather than deliberate , a case > >of tunnel vision. > > So, if your house was burning you'd run in and rescue your classic computer > on the first trip and your daughter on the second trip? > > The Iraqi's will receive a great deal more benefit from the oil than the > museums. > > Oh, and who was it that was looting the museums? > > > Ed K. > > In this case it was not our house to look after. Iraq wasn't bombed into oblivion and the police force was not disbanded so they should have guarded their own museums. From what I recall collectors had made lists of what was to be stolen before the government fell and it was most likely people working inside those museums that did the looting. Most thieves would have broken into the banks looking for gold and US dollars that are much easier to fence then a one of a kind 2000 year old pieces of history. Since Sadam was eager to torch Kuwait's oilfields when we liberated that country people in the military here figured he would do the same to his own wells (kind of like Hitler destroying anything of value in Germany when it was over run). The last thing Bush wanted was to liberate Iraq (which was falling apart because of bombs and blockades) and not have a viable income stream to fix the place up (assuming he cared about the place at all and was not looking to cut of Sadams head and give it to his daddy). Did anyone expect 125,000 troops to be able to police a large country of 25,000,000 while protecting every single government run organization and sealing the borders? From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Mon Sep 27 02:27:31 2004 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927011541.00ae4e48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040927072731.83914.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> [snip] > Most (all?) Cat5 baluns use pins 4 & 5 for this run -- making sure > that > pair is part of a twisted pair will help a *lot*. > > Good news: You could even make an Ethernet/Twinax single jack, if > you're > not running faster than 100Mbps ethernet, as they run 1/2 & 3/6 for > their > pairs -- just use 4/5 for twinax. [snip] thanks roger! I think I will run twinax separately from ethernet. I'll stop by my fav electronics dealer for some connectors tonight... > Amazingly, that's one of the (if not *the*) most damaging commands to > the > system... and it's the *first* one you read about in the IBM > manuals... > (well, the ones I read, anyway)! uff. I don't have any manuals :( I was just looking around at IBM'S website and was googling around a bit but had nearly no luck. No hints on bitsavers too. I home someone could provide some links to (at least) basic info. But before I that I think I have to determine the correct machine type, right? How can I do this? Regards, Wolfgang Eichberger ===== ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang@eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== ___________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 100MB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 27 02:53:31 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <0409270619.AA18264@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409270619.AA18264@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4157C6FB.6080503@gjcp.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: > I can't understand why everyone here is having so much difficulty with > their wives. Why did you marry them in the first place? Why in the > world would you want to marry someone who has no respect for your most > important Life's Work? I believe the term, in the vernacular, is "true dat". My girlfriend and I are both fortunate in that we have very similar interests in computers, electronics, photography and cooking, and even where we don't particularly share an interest we at least participate in what the other is doing. I have a rather better appreciation of Scottish Country Dancing, and Carolyne's taste in cars now runs almost exclusively to elderly Citroens, Reliant Scimitars, and her 2002 Polo. It helps that we're both geeks and thus almost pathologically interested in *everything*. > I would never even *date* a woman who does not share my most core beliefs, > and she must agree to protect our property with her life before there > can be any talk of marriage. Well now, property is replaceable, mostly. I would urge SWMBO to protect her life with the nearest suitably heavy bit of property (Citroen Special Tool FBH-14, maybe). Gordon. From dmhills at attglobal.net Mon Sep 27 03:20:54 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927011541.00ae4e48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Amazingly, that's one of the (if not *the*) most damaging commands to the >system... and it's the *first* one you read about in the IBM manuals... >(well, the ones I read, anyway)! Well, you can leave off the *immed if you want the system to wait until all jobs have finished. But for the version of OS that he has, it'll be fine. (Ex IBM product trained CSR *and* PSR for S/38 and AS/400 speaking...) -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 22 08:44:38 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: FW: cctech Digest, Vol 13, Issue 27 - Re: HP Laserjet Message-ID: <200409221344.i8MDianb006848@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Barry Watzman wrote: "I have an actual factory service manual for the Laserjet II, I may scan it and make it into a PDF for the classic computer documentation effort." Seth Lewin wrote: "I wonder if anyone on the list has any kind of teardown instructions or lubrication instructions for these machines - mine sounds as if it can use a greasing when it's feeding paper - not a screeching sound but is sounds as if something's running dry in there. It's never been taken apart and Apple's hardbound book on the LW II doesn't give this kind of information." ********** Ok, I did scan the manual. Although it's an HP Laserjet Series II service manual, it's essentially a service manual for any device using the Canon "SX" print mechanism. The bad news, it' 8 megabytes (I scanned it in color, it's a color manual). I can't easily E-Mail it, anyone know an FTP site where I can make it available? A bit of concern here, it's a copyrighted manual, and unlike IMSAI, Altair, etc., HP is very much still in business and might object. [Although I have an HP LaserJet 4 service manual in PDF format that I found on another web site.] From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Sep 22 10:06:39 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040921072525.03668008@192.168.0.1> References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20040921072525.03668008@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <415194FF.9040107@hp.com> I've since discovered/found out that my BA11-N (PDP-11/03L) is indeed originally monochrome (DEC Gray). But there is a late version of the BA11-M (PDP-11/03) which has the embossed PDP logo in white on a DEC maroon background (so says Megan). http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/kepek/pdp1103.jpg It seems that it's quite rare too... (note also the 2 rivets) Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 10:52 AM 9/1/2004, you wrote: > >> Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC >> and PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) >> >> Could someone please take a closeup photo of the DEC/PDP logo on their >> 11/03 or 11/23 and send it to me? Or point me to a site which have it? >> I need to match the paint for the logo restoration. > > > > Was it like this? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5124508154&rd=1 > > > Ed K. From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Sep 22 10:45:11 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage In-Reply-To: <20040921202634.037f12d1@arrakis> References: <200409150321.i8F3LWrN008172@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200409221545.i8MFjDdY017876@mail.bcpl.net> On 21 Sep 2004 at 20:26, Ryan M. Blair wrote: > Anyone happen to have pointers to (or the real thing) documentation for > this machine.... Perhaps: http://docs.hp.com/mpeix/all/index.html -- Dave From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Sep 22 11:39:05 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Real PDP11 model question References: <16717.62337.101662.981971@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200409221639.MAA1006911@shell.TheWorld.com> >How big is a PDT-11/110? My PDT-11/150 is quite a bit larger than a >DECmate III. Both the PDT-11/110 and PDT-11/130 are built into VT100 cases, so that is what they are the size of. The PDT-11/150 is a separate box which is an 8" floppy drive wide, about 12" high and about 14" deep. >To the best of my knowledge the smallest possible PDP-11 made out of >real hardware would be a 4-slot dual-height backplane, with a >dual-height CPU (ideally a PDP-11/73), DLV-11J (providing console >port), 3rd party disk controller w/bootstrap (preferably SCSI). That >would leave room for one additional dual-height board. You'd have to >figure out the power-supply and how to wire up any disk or tape >drives. I'd build something like this, if I had the backplane, but I >don't. You forgot memory... And the box exists, it is a BA11-VA (the Shoebox). >The smallest DEC PDP-11 that I'm aware of is the PDP-11/03, but >you've got to add a external drive of some sort. But that is a 4 x 4 backplane... so it is 19" wide (with the attached power supply). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From david at dynamicconcepts.us Wed Sep 22 13:04:17 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Just what we all need (semi-political) Message-ID: Check it out.... http://www.ncsoftware.com/images/OutlookForCPM.gif From mbg at theworld.com Wed Sep 22 14:16:41 2004 From: mbg at theworld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: 11/23 or 11/03 picture of DEC/PDP logo References: <200408312357.i7VNvSJI016790@onyx.spiritone.com> <41355CB9.4030405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200409221916.PAA1026218@shell.TheWorld.com> >Some idiot resprayed my BA11-N chassis, without masking the holy DEC >and PDP logo. So now, I'm going to have to restore it. :-) How do you know it was painted over? Is it a label which is adhesive-mounted to the surface which has been sprayed? Or is it something embossed into the metal. If the latter, they didn't have a color scheme beyond the color spray-painted by DEC over the metal... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From keith at saracom.com Wed Sep 22 15:38:46 2004 From: keith at saracom.com (keith@saracom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Challenger C4P information wanted. Message-ID: Hello, A friend gave me his first computer to go in my collection. Its a Challenger C4P. I do have the original manuals etc. And of course my friend for information. What I am looking for however is additional information, websites etc devoted to it. I have the cassette based version. The first question would be details on the floppy disk version. IE can I upgrade mine. If not, sources for programs for the cassette based unit. For one thing, I would like a terminal emulation program for it. Thanks Max From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Sep 22 23:31:11 2004 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409211846.i8LIkMcb018448@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200409230431.i8N4VBD2018657@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> "Zane H. Healy" : > Oddly enough, while hobbyists have done several DEC CPU's in FPGA's > (including two different PDP-10 projects), no one to my knowledge > has done a PDP-11. Hey, neat! That means there's still a chance I could be the first... Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From david at dynamicconcepts.us Thu Sep 23 09:35:27 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:32 2005 Subject: Byte collection going to the block. Message-ID: I am going to be selling off a collection of Byte magazines [they are going to e-bay thiss weekend]. The collection is complete [to the best of my knowledge] for 1983 thru 1986. There are also 20+ issues from the early-mid 1990's. If any is interested and wants to make a reasonable offer (all offers will NOT include shipping), this is your chance..... David Sayville, NY From waisun.chia at hp.com Thu Sep 23 10:04:28 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: H786 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4152E5FC.6000008@hp.com> Jumped into my first serious PSU repair.. :-) It's a dead H786 (from a BA11-N), tripped my house's CB initially.. Traced it to a shorted bridge rectifier...promptly replaced that (with a higher spec 35A/1000V, original was 30A/600V). Put it a dummy load (a 12V/1A fan), fan turns.. YAY! But to my dismay, 12V o/p measured to just 3.5V while th 5V o/p measured around 100mV (!). Throughout all these, a high-frequency whining/buzzing is being heard.. Any clues to go forward? Do I start checking from the output to input or do I move forward from the choppers? Thanks. /wai-sun From konsheyn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 12:45:40 2004 From: konsheyn at yahoo.com (Konstantin Sheyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: interesting finds: Matrox VME Video card, AST Advantage Message-ID: <20040923174540.48895.qmail@web60907.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Joe! Do you have Matrox VG-640 card? Do you want to sell it? Ken : Stopped and looked through a bunch of scrap today. Found a Matrox VG-640 video card for the VME bus. Does anyone have any specs on this? Google didn't find ANY hits for it. Also picked up an AST Advantage card with the Advantage Pak daughterboard. Anyone need it? OT stuff: Also picked up a Beckman UV 5270 SpectroPhotometer. Man this thing is loaded! Will try to re-assemble it and get it working in a few days. Joe __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sml49 at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 18:54:55 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >> modem technology daily In-Reply-To: <200409232215.i8NMFonF064846@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: How about this: I work as an in-house medical consultant to the health-fraud operation of a major US computer-services company (no names but Ross Perot used to own it...) and because I'm a consultant and not an employee (one day a week for three years now) I am refused access to the company network - so I work on an old iMac I restored and leave at that location, and I access the web via dialup using my daughter's Earthlink account. The internal phone network there must be noisy; all I can get is maybe 24K. Not fun. Used to do it on a PB 3400 but someone tossed the iMac at the local town dump and I adopted it - so now I can leave the even-older PB at home where it runs a SCSI scanner. Seth Lewin > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > At 12:00 -0500 9/11/04, cctalk-request@classiccmp.org wrote: >> p.s. Just curious how many of you still uses good-ole classic analog >> modem technology daily? > > Yo. (And that has nothing to do with how late this response is :-) .) > > Ethernet at the office, but analog modem at home. Not audio, the > phone cable plugs straight into the modem board on the PowerBook > 3400, which admittedly isn't on topic... From sastevens at earthlink.net Thu Sep 23 19:44:20 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: PeeCee Text In-Reply-To: <20040922203705.T81963@shell.lmi.net> References: <20040922203705.T81963@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, William Donzelli wrote: >> In the old days of the XT and CGA, what text modes were supported? >> I have a Wyse PC+ - an oddball XT class machine - that could run DOS in >> several weird text modes (96 and 132 column, I think). I remember using it >> this way for some stuff, but often certain programs would barf (Norton >> Commander being one of them). >> Were these modes standard? > >No, but not especially rare. > >The "standard" text modes were: >CGA: (startying at segment B800) >0? B&W 40 x 25 >1? Color 40 x 25 >2 B&W 80 x 25 >3 Color 80 x 25 > >MDA: (starting at segment B000) >7 Mono 80 x 25 > >Int 10, fn 0F would return which mode you were in. >Almost all software supported modes 3 and 7. Some demented P.O.S. >programs would insist on trying to display color, even if you had >deliberately switched into mode 2. > > >> I still have the PC+, and I doubt I will ever get rid of it for some >> reason. It is a pretty weird machine, and I don't think many were made. > >Wyse made some fun weird stuff! >I liked the Wyse 700 / Amdek 1280 monitor and "special" video board, that >did 1280 x 800? b*w pixels, and could be easily coerced into 160 x 50 text I at one point coerced my boss into getting me a big 19" monochrome monitor for my work PC. It had a special graphics card from Cornerstone in it, and I dubbed it a 'Super Hercules' monitor (the 'Hercules' monographics equivalent of SVGA). It had only Windows 3 drivers, though, for anything else it was a humungous 80x25 monochrome monitor. It was great running a GUI on a huge high-res Monochrome display for the kind of stuff (programming embedded controllers) stuff I was doing at that time. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Sep 24 05:55:19 2004 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1095976202.30327.89.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040924110751.01fc3588@slave> At 22:50 23/09/2004, you wrote: >On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 11:17 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Apologies if someone's mentioned this one before. Quite possibly the > > > coolest gadget I've seen in a long time, though: > > > > > > http://www.cyberniklas.de/pongmechanik/indexen.html > > > > Awesome. It would be great to get stuff like this exhibited at the VCF. > > > > The web page is pretty smart also. What terrific technical and design > > work. > >Amazing, huh? If I read that right, it's 52 relays though (I don't know >any German) which makes it sound rather like a 'simple' relay control >system rather than an actual relay computer. I fired off an email to >them to see if they'll let me have a nose at the wiring diagrams. I did some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations (i.e. they might be completely & utterly wrong, in which case I'd appreciate corrections) on a relay computer... Assume you want a Z80-type CPU. This has ~8k gates. Typically, it seems to take 1 relay per input to implement any given gate. Now, I don't know how many "x-input" gates there are in a Z80, so I'll assume that - on average - it will require 3 relays/gate. Thus, we need ~24,000 relays to implement the Z80. If each relay needs, say, 25mA @ 6v to operate, then the peak current draw of our R80 (as I shall call it) could be around 600A (I think). And that's before we've added memory, i/o, etc. As for the heat/noise - well, IMHO it's worth building it just to experience that! Mind you, you'll need a lot of room: If you use 30mm by 13mm relays, then the board space you need is at least 9.36 square metres... Still, if you assume that each board needs approx 40mm of space incl. airflow room, then you should be able to fit the R80 into 2 400mm by 400mm by 2000mm cabinets (internal w/d/h)... The relays I've been looking at typically quote around 25ms to operate (either way), so I don't see how you could clock the R80 at anything faster than around 40Hz; and you'd probably want to drop to 20Hz to be on the safe side. The same relays quote a typical lifetime of 10e7 operations; so at 20Hz, your R80 should last a little under 139 continuous hours of operation before relays started failing... Creating a screen driver should be interesting.... Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? Cheers, Ade. From richard at girling.net Fri Sep 24 08:30:54 2004 From: richard at girling.net (richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor software Message-ID: <414A8C32@webmail.easymail.va.ifl.net> Hi Glen Not sure if you can help, but came across a post on Classiccmp referring to files for the HP 10342B Bus predecessor. I am looking for these files , can you help? Many Thanks Richard From opinion102 at hotmail.com Sat Sep 25 01:37:23 2004 From: opinion102 at hotmail.com (Michael Hansen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Northgate Laptop Question Message-ID: Hey, I ran accross one of your newsgroup posts on the internet the other day. I bought a northgate ZX off Ebay, and have found it difficult to find the A/C Adapter, can you give me any advice to locate one for sale, or perhaps where to buy the connector, so far, It seems nobody has anything compatible which would power the computer. Now I guess I know why the guy selling it was so eager to get rid of it, lol.... Thanks for your help, Michael _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From monikadonald at v21.me.uk Sat Sep 25 05:39:01 2004 From: monikadonald at v21.me.uk (Monikadonald) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: compaq slt 286 Message-ID: <000601c4a2eb$e6c7e210$4e3d0751@untamedudtwn1h> Hi, I've just been given a compaq slt/286, knowing nothing about them, I seached the net for info and found yourself, do you still have guide and manual? If so it'd be a great help, (nice to put the two things back together as mine is in original carry case) If you've still got it, or can even give me any info/advice about it, email me at monikadonald@v21.me.uk yours hopefully, Donald Jarvie. From respley at gmav.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 25 16:04:46 2004 From: respley at gmav.demon.co.uk (Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Gemini / Xebec Message-ID: Hiya I found your email address while searching for information on Gemini computers and Xebec controllers. I?ve recently acquired a Gemini Galaxy 3 with a hard drive but the version of CP/M it came with does not have the any software for the hard drive. Basically do you have a any Gemini utility software for the hard drive, and if so, can I please get a copy. Many thanks Richard --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.769 / Virus Database: 516 - Release Date: 24/09/2004 From moturick at earthlink.net Sun Sep 26 16:07:16 2004 From: moturick at earthlink.net (Rick Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: I have a Synertek VIM-1 Message-ID: <002001c4a40c$cdf2a2d0$210110ac@downstudy> Hi Guys, I noticed all of you had nostalgic interest in the Synertek VIM-1. I have one, in its old yellowed box, postmarked July, 1978. While I had grandiose intentions when I originally got it, I never put it to use. If any of you have an interest in it, let me know. Rick Wheeler From rvtechno at vsnl.net Sun Sep 26 19:32:34 2004 From: rvtechno at vsnl.net (K. Venkataramanan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: 78MGT2 and 79MGT2 Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20040927060057.009f3090@mail.vsnl.net> Hi there I saw your posting. I think I know where I can pick up these Regulators. Do you have the datasheets / pinouts so that I can test them? Venkat VU2KV From mattd1205 at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 26 22:31:49 2004 From: mattd1205 at sbcglobal.net (matt doan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: 5.25 fdd drive Message-ID: <20040927033149.49203.qmail@web80804.mail.yahoo.com> hello i have the teac floppy drive and it has does not need any driver. email me if u need any more info matt From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Sep 27 05:47:25 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Book available -- "The Computer Technician's Handbook" -- Computer Automation PDC 808 Message-ID: <4157EFBD.3080202@pacbell.net> I have a duplicate copy of "The Computer Technician's Handbook", by Brice Ward, TAB No. 554, 1971. The first half of the book is a convetional treatment of basic digital logic theory, logic families, and such, with an emphasis on the 8200 series. The second half of the book is more interesting. It is a "case study" of the Computer Automation PDC 808, complete with a description of the architecture, logic diagrams, a detailed walkthrough, timing diagrams, scope waveforms, etc. Much of it looks like it was probably lifted from the manufacturer's service manuals. The PDC 808 was an 8-bit minicomputer (yes, 8-bit) introduced in 1968. It appears to have a family resemblance to the 16-bit PDC 816, and more closely resembles the traditional 16-bit "stretched PDP-8" minicomputer style rather than most of the later 8-bit architectures seen in microprocessors. The bookseller rated this book in "very good" condition. It is clean with a tight binding, with some wear on the cover and a small crease. I paid $7.00 for it. I'll sell it for that plus shipping. --Bill From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 06:38:00 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <17485148.1096285081433.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> you create your OR functionality with diodes - use two diodes (or as many inputs as you need) such as the 1N4001 for your inputs. Tie the cathodes together and attach that to the relay coil. Apply "logic high" (whatever voltage your relays operate at) to either (or any) diode anode and the relay will turn on. The relay can be the next stage and does not have to be there to implement the OR. best regards, Steve Thatcher Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? Cheers, Ade. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 27 07:44:59 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: References: <013801c4a35c$0ed3d960$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040927074102.05521328@pc> At 01:41 AM 9/26/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I think a more apt comparison is the US allowing the museums of Baghdad to >be looted while they secured the oil fields. Over here, they'll fight years-long battles to preserve Civil War battlefields from development. Fields where one battle took place! Over there, I doubt that 30,000+ years of archaeological history ever figured into where they decided to drop bombs. It was not a layer in the intelligence info. Iraq is a fine example of random pockets of preservation of ages-old data. Used cuneiform tablets were scattered like scraps of paper. I've always wanted to buy one on eBay, but never quite trusted the provenance you find there. I'd almost want to pull it from the ground myself - but that can be planted, too. - John From hans.franke at siemens.com Mon Sep 27 07:54:12 2004 From: hans.franke at siemens.com (Franke Hans) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: AW: I have a Synertek VIM-1 Message-ID: <73ADA5CE0A8C9A43A0E236FC2497AF9904733132@mhpahx4c.mch.sbs.de> > I noticed all of you had nostalgic interest in the Synertek VIM-1. I have one, in its old > yellowed box, postmarked July, 1978. While I had grandiose intentions when I > originally got it, I never put it to use. If any of you have an interest in it, let me know. Well, there's definite interest here, but without a return Address, it's hard to answer :) Servus Hans From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 27 07:57:29 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040927073820.05521848@pc> At 01:50 AM 9/26/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, jos de waal wrote: >> I think you're missing the point. I was merely pointing out that >> contacting a family in mourning about such unimportant matters is, >> in my opinion, pretty tasteless and could cause unwanted effects. > >No, I think you're missing the point. To say I have no tact or respect >for wanting to preserve the work Don poured the final years of his life >into is missing the point. I knew full well the ramifications of calling >so shortly (relatively) after someone's passing. I also know full well >the ramifications of waiting too long. I'm not suggesting we play "What >Would Don Have Wanted?", but what do you think he would've wanted? I'll make it more general than that: if you think someone has something that would be valuable to you, tell them. Being two weeks behind the post-mortem cleanout and Dumpster is one sad thing. Finding out they threw out something you wanted while they were still alive is another! :-) So Sellam, what does your will say about your junk? I must admit, I haven't gotten around to composing a preferred disposition statement, either. I've tried to think of what it would say. I'd like someone to triple-backup archive my main workstations, just for posterity. But then put the media where? I'd like them to appoint (meaning: hire) someone to notify this list of the availability of my stuff, then auction and ship. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 27 09:03:36 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <24072086-0FF5-11D9-8E3D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16728.7608.422000.748293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> On Sep 26, 2004, at 11:51 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>> Ron wrote.... Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" >>>>> = "2" :^) >> >> >> Who EVER implied a relation between decimal representation and >> ascii representation?????????? >> >> David. >> >> Ron> no one... just me just now... Didn't and older IBM machine Ron> store numbers digit by digit in consecutive words (allowing you Ron> to setup integers as long/wide as you needed) ? Yes, that exactly describes the IBM 1620. (It even had variable length floating point -- any number of digits for the mantissa, though always 2 digits for the exponent.) paul From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Sep 27 08:22:59 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: Message-ID: <200409271322.JAA1369172@shell.TheWorld.com> Actually, the CIS option chip for the 11/23 spans two sockets. It plugs into the outer edge of one socket and the outer edge of the adjacent socket... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at TheWorld.com Mon Sep 27 08:27:10 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040923075930.024aab58@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200409271327.JAA1376920@shell.TheWorld.com> > The dual-height 11/03 processor allows a CIS as well. I have a >couple that have that chip. As far as I can determine, both those >machines were used to sort, analyse, and archive incoming raw data. Are you sure... I don't remember a CIS option for the 11/03. There was an EIS/FIS option chip which could be used on 11/03, 11/2 and PDT-11/1x0 systems. But the only CIS option chip I know of works only on 11/23[+] (and possibly the 11/24?) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 27 09:31:24 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <0409270619.AA18264@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: > I would never even *date* a woman who does not share my most core beliefs, > and she must agree to protect our property with her life before there > can be any talk of marriage. > Let me guess, you're not exactly popular with the ladies, are you? :) g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 27 10:01:13 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: <0409271501.AA19225@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Gene Buckle wrote: > Let me guess, you're not exactly popular with the ladies, are you? Only the ones who go to Bay Area UFO Expo and Conspiracy Con. Those conferences draw a very good gender balance, but more work is needed on making us ufologists match. I'm planning to create a new and exciting matchmaking site (hosted at Harhan and powered by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus on a VAX of course) specifically catered to this community. Instead of stupid useless questions like height, eye color, etc. the member profile form will ask questions about UFOs, conspiracies, psychic powers, alternative medicine, etc. MS From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 27 10:22:06 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <0409271501.AA19225@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Sep 27, 4 03:01:13 pm" Message-ID: <200409271522.IAA17306@floodgap.com> > Instead of stupid useless questions like height, eye color, > etc. the member profile form will ask questions about UFOs, > conspiracies, psychic powers, alternative medicine, etc. And a babe and/or stud quotient, too. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- When weaving nets, all threads count. -- Charlie Chan ---------------------- From info at fragment-media.com Mon Sep 27 09:58:22 2004 From: info at fragment-media.com (Simon - Fragment Media) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Pixel Machines Message-ID: <000901c4a4a2$6fe56ba0$8119fea9@golf> HI I used this machine 1989-1991 in London at a company in London called Electric Image. Its major problem was the bottle kneck in the transferring of data from the Sun, to the machine itself. A ray traced render would indeed be quite fast, but passing any complex data to it, just took forever. Interesting machine tho..Nice images. Simon From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Sep 27 10:23:36 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call Message-ID: <0409271523.AA19268@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And a babe and/or stud quotient, too. Not sure about that, here is what I have at this early design stage (the list of properties will definitely grow, these were just the first that popped into my head): StarMatch profile format: First line: M for member, A for applicant, C for new E-mail address for a member pending confirmation. Followed by information lines, then a blank line, then the essay until EOF. Each information line begins with a type letter followed immediately by data. The first letter is A for internal administrative data like the password, everything else is the user's input. All administrative lines must precede the user's lines. The following lines are defined: ACcookie expire Indicates that E-mail confirmation is required. cookie must be supplied in the E-mail, expire is time_t in decimal. AM If present, subscribe to starmatch-ml AOoldemail Only in 'C' files, specifies the old E-mail address. APpassword BMJD x Birthdate as MJD (canonical) BYYYY-MM-DD Gregorian birthdate allowed in input, converted to MJD D (for date) single and looking if present, looking for friends only otherwise. Hurl Home page Iurl Picture URL, may be on our site if we host it Llat[NS]long[EW] Location, lat and long are atof-able floating point latitude and longitude in degrees. Alternatively, in input lat and long may be d'" or dms, converted to floating point. NReal Name Real name Pproperty=value Any properties one can think of Pproperty (without value) flag properties Scode Sex and orientation, code is M/F for straight, MB/FB for bi, L for Lesbian, G for gay male. Properties currently defined: baue= Been to Bay Area UFO Expo times baue=S Been a speaker at Bay Area UFO Expo cbbw Is a proud CBBW concon= Been to Conspiracy Con times concon=S Been a speaker at Bay Area UFO Expo courage Courageous freedom fighter, not afraid of the shadow govt exop active interest in exopolitics height=cm Canonical, num may be integer or float height='" allowed in input, converted to cm iufoc= Been to the International UFO Congress times iufoc=S Been a speaker at the International UFO Congress mufon Member of pagan self-explanatory ufo active interest in UFOs weight=kg Canonical, num may be integer or float weight={lb,lbs,#} allowed in input, converted to kg, num may be int or float wiccan self-explanatory xconf= Been to the X-Conference times xconf=S Been a speaker at the X-Conference From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 27 10:52:51 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <0409270708.AA18605@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409270708.AA18605@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200409271052.51664.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 27 September 2004 02:08, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Special Ops who knew exactly what they were doing, who passed up very > beautiful and expensive golden statues and other very valuable > artifacts of the mundane kind and went straight for the ancient > extraterrestrial stuff in the basement. They also took the extra > effort to destroy the museum computers and CDs with catalogs so no > one can figure out just what they stole. They also had keys and > codes to safes, office locks, etc., so they were pros with inside > access. I'm tempted to ignore this but I must ask... How do you know this, did you see them doing it yourself or something? Sigh. Enough taunting for one day... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Sep 27 11:01:16 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <0409271523.AA19268@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: [ ... crap deleted ... ] People, please return to on-topic issues. --fred From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Sep 27 11:06:04 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <41572A0B.7020308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> <90789423-0FEA-11D9-8546-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927110012.00bcfd00@localhost> At 02:43 PM 9/26/2004 -0600, you wrote: >Ron Hudson wrote: >>On Sep 26, 2004, at 10:12 AM, ben franchuk wrote: >> >>>PS. I thinking of building a smaller decimal machine ( 6 digits ) and >>>wondering >>>where a good source of info on the web with the way to handle the math. >>>BCD? Execess 3, some other codeing? >>> >>Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) >.-- . W E >.... .- ...- . H A V E >-- --- .-. ... . M O R S E >-.-. --- -.. . C O D E >:) ? WE HAVE MORSE CODE WHAT? (I believe that nanotech could change the world within my unnatural lifetime.) --David M. Palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From hans.franke at siemens.com Mon Sep 27 11:24:04 2004 From: hans.franke at siemens.com (Franke Hans) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: AW: Usb - Pro/Con Message-ID: <73ADA5CE0A8C9A43A0E236FC2497AF9904733135@mhpahx4c.mch.sbs.de> >> >>> I don't like the fact that you're supposed to pay for an ID >> >>> (and have thr device 'certified') if you want to make your >> >>> own stuff. Never had this problem with RS232 :-) >> You need to pay for and get certified if you are going to make a legitimate >> network appliance also [MAC ID]. Of course most products purchase a > You didn't need to pay for anything if you wanted to make an RS232 device. Nor do you for USB. Just use one of the existing USB/Paralell or USB/Serial modules, add a serial EEPROM with the needed device strings, and you have your custom USB device. Then take their generic driver, add whatever funcionality your device should support and you get all the bonuses of USB (easy use, plug and Pray, and so on) plus no USB specific development. >> >>> And the fact that you seem to need special drivers for many >> >>> devices which you can bet are not available for any of my machines. >> Although I can not find the link at presend, there is source code for low >> level drivers. Since your environment (by choice) is the use of equipment > Ah, sop now if I buy a product the first thing I have to do is write > special drivers for it..... And hope that I can get enough of a spec on > the product to allow me to do this. ??? Isn't that the same for any device? I mean, if I get me a camera with a RS232 interface (if such thing is still arround, but I can just use my old Olympus as example :) I still have to write my own drivers (unless useung Wn/Mac) ... that's nothing new to USB or whatever. On a closer look, doing a USB driver is even a bit more simple than for any older infervace, since not only the electrical parameters, but also all basic messages are described. >> >>> And the fact that it's very assymmetric (there are 'masters' and >> >>> 'slaves') is something I don't like either. RS232 was much >> >>> more symmetrical. >> RS-232 is an ELECTRICAL Specification. The protocols that are run on >> This are independand. Lets keep it apple and apples..... > OK, Asynchronous bit-serial data, sent LSB first, using the RS232 voltage > and connector specifications :-) *G* and USB is the same, plus a well defined protocoll for messages, which allows software development on specific levels with a great speed. >> >>> More modern palmtops have USB ports. They're slaves, >> >>> designed to hang off a PC. You can't link them directly to >> >>> a printer. It's interesting that some of my older handhelds >> >>> have HPIL ports, but by default the handheld is the loop >> >>> controller ('master'), so you can link them straight to a >> >>> printer. But they can be 'slaves' if you want to link them >> >>> to a larger machine. We've gone backwards (as usual) >> To be honest, I have not looked into the electricals on this. I am NOT sure >> that they are *REQUIRED* to be slaves. > There is, of course, nothing rreally to stop you making a handheld > 'master' (althoguh the master has to supply power to all devices on the > USB chain), but the fact remains that AFAIK all handheld machines > currently on sale are 'slaves' That's where on-the-go comes into the play, an extension of the electrical spec (so the device can see if the other end is a host or a device and select the oposite role) and a protocoll extension, for negotiation if both sides are able to act as host/device. It even allows switching roles while running (of course after closeing all open transactions). OTG makes the low level driver a bit more complicated, but these have only to be made once for any new machine (and adds a little hardware for switching the power on and off). OTG is ment that a camera can be a device to a PC, and a host for a printer ... and so on. >> >>> All my PCs have ISA slots only. Other machines have Unibus, >> >>> Qbus, BBC 1MHz bus/Torch X-bus, various custom I/O slots >> >>> (like on th HP9830), HPIL, PERQlink, etc. Just about all of >> >>> those have RS232 (or compatible) ports, I've nver seen USB >> >>> for any of them >> Again, development boards ARE out their that give you everything you need to >> interface to nearly any host... > Most of the developemnt boards I've looked at assume you're making a > slave device. This is not what I need. Shure, most ICs sold are slave controlers ... If you realy want to look into that, I recomend the Transdimension UHC 124 controler. It handles already the most nasty parts of the low level protocoll, so even the basic drivers are easy to do. also it features an 8 Bit Interface, so it's great for every computer arround. The only feature missing is OTG. It's a host only controller, but has already a 4 port hub integrated (oh, and it's only good for low/full speed, but 1 MB/s is more than most old computers can handle anyway). Transdimension offers a real neat Evaluation board http://www.transdimension.com/products/semiconductors/uhc124/evalboard/index.html But more important is their 'Exerciser' Board http://www.transdimension.com/products/semiconductors/uhc124/exerciserboard/index.html a full figured USB training and Protocoll/Trafic analyzing tool. All you need is a dumb terminal (or a PC) and you can dig deep into USB. My recomendation for anyone who realy wan't so know how USB ticks. better than any Windows based tool I found (if you're able to handle a classic text based UI - not necersarry true for everyone nowadays). The TD243 is a nice upscale controler, but I haven't done anything with it. Also it features a 32 Bit interface :( Theoreticaly the Atmel 370 (*G*) would make an even better controller, since it freatures OTG and an even higer level interface - just, I haven't had a chance to get the needed interface level decription, and I don'T want to use their C libraries. they are worthless for the machines I play with. >> >>> > I also don't understand your statement that it is not a bus..... >> >>> Electrically it's not a bus. If it was, I could just parallel up >> >>> connectors and plug in several devices, there'd be no need >> >>> to _always_ >> >>> have a hub (which, from what I've seen, contains a fair >> >>> amount of logic). >> By that argument (which has valid aspects), then ArcNet was not a bus >> either, and RS-232 is DEFINITELY not a bus architecture (it is purely point >> to point). No argument there. But neither of those claim to be a bus. Well, logicaly I considere USB a bus. from a host perspective all devices are available in paralell, and you talk out of one port. that it'S bade up from point to point connections is not realy a criteria - If you look arround, nowadays Ethernet is also almost always a point to point with switches, still for each connected computer it looks like a bus. Hans From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 27 11:25:43 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:31:11 +1200." <200409230431.i8N4VBD2018657@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <200409271625.i8RGPhkL002149@mwave.heeltoe.com> Greg Ewing wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" : > >> Oddly enough, while hobbyists have done several DEC CPU's in FPGA's >> (including two different PDP-10 projects), no one to my knowledge >> has done a PDP-11. > >Hey, neat! That means there's still a chance I could >be the first... Too late. Some guys in Japan did "pop-11". Looks pretty nice, but it's written in some non-standard language and then converted into verilog. I've been trying to coax the orginal source out of the authors with no luck so far. I'd sure like to see this in pure verilog. http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html -brad From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 27 11:28:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41583FB8.7040103@mdrconsult.com> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > [ ... crap deleted ... ] > > People, please return to on-topic issues. Oh, but I'm having so much FUN, fred! Doc From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 27 11:46:32 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... References: Message-ID: <415843E8.A525230F@msm.umr.edu> Also, the os's for old AS/400's would run for 30 or 60 days, then bomb, and you could reload them indefinitely. sort of the same as XP, but less painful. if you wanted to do real work, then you would have to pay, but to just make the screen flash, you can run it for a while then reload. one place I worked used a junk as/400 for that purpose, just to check out connectivity with a hardware adapter for keyboard and screen jim Don Hills wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > ... There is no other OS than OS/400, IBM did publish full specs to allow anyone to write their own OS but no-one ever did. ... Don, do you have any referenced on this? I know some years ago Pick Systems was porting to the AS/400, but that was bootlegged, and eventually given up. jim From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 27 12:02:36 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Survived another one! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040927130236.008f9c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Well Hurricane Jeanne has come and gone. This is the fourth hurricane in 6 weeks and the third that's gone through my area. The DEC and intel stuff sitting outside STILL hasn't blown away! Not too much damage this time, for the most part everything that could be torn up was destroyed in the previous storms. However my roof shingles are finally starting to go. The power companies are getting GOOD at this. This time they had the power back on the same day! I think there's going to be lots of houses (or vacant lots!) for sale in Florida real soon. I went to Home Depot this morning and it was packed with people buying roofing materials and other repair items. A lot of them also had "Home for Sale" signs in their carts! I haven't heard from Glen. I know he was without power for five then seven days from the two previous storms and I think he's about ready to leave the state. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 04:55:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Just what we all need (semi-political) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Check it out.... > > http://www.ncsoftware.com/images/OutlookForCPM.gif Whoever put this together does not know thier computer history. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 27 12:56:30 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: RX02 parts available Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927135021.03254ed8@192.168.0.1> Got a call from Mark Wagner, a tech at George Washington University in DC. He has 2 RX02 (dual drive rack mount 8" floppy units) available. They are pretty much dead. They are what's left over after getting one unit fully operational. The power supplies are good, and he might keep one. If they could be of any use to you, and you're nearby, drop him a line at: qedqcd@gwu.edu Ed K. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 27 12:58:28 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <415843E8.A525230F@msm.umr.edu> References: <415843E8.A525230F@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2004, at 9:46 AM, jim stephens wrote: > ... There is no > other OS than OS/400, IBM did publish full specs to allow anyone to > write > their own OS but no-one ever did. ... > In one of my jobs I worked for the communications product div of Novell, they were trying to port netware to the AS400, but the simulated machine the AS400 presents was not effiecient for Novell, they could not get the server to run well enough, And IBM would not release the actual machine instruction set so the server could be written at the lower level (AS400 machines all run a simulator of an imaginary machine.. They do this so that all models of the AS400 are binary-compatible.) I think the imaginary machine's instruction set was called "MI" for Machine Interface??? From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 05:14:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Northgate Laptop Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Michael Hansen wrote: > I ran accross one of your newsgroup posts on the internet the other day. I > bought a northgate ZX off Ebay, and have found it difficult to find the A/C > Adapter, can you give me any advice to locate one for sale, or perhaps where > to buy the connector, so far, It seems nobody has anything compatible which > would power the computer. Doesn't this use a standard 9V supply at something like 300mA with a standard phono jack? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 13:10:40 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call References: Message-ID: <415857A0.5080508@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: > Let me guess, you're not exactly popular with the ladies, are you? > :) I guess it is time to start a new mailing list ... How to collect classic computers & be popular with the girls. From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 27 13:19:29 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Emulex UC08 help Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927140704.02a641c8@192.168.0.1> I have an Emulex UC08 SCSI <-> QBus board I'm trying to make work. It actually has 2 controllers on the board. I can get into the firmware on both controllers fine -- when no drives are connected. However, when I connect a SCSI drive to a controller, I can not get into the firmware for that controller. It lights up the 3 error LEDS and puts a code "231" into the SA register low byte. Both controllers do this. I've tried several disk drives and a tape drive. A Zip100 SCSI drive did let me get into the firmware, but I couldn't but System Can't See It. Got the UC08 recently and have not got it working yet. Does anyone know what UC08 error code "231" is? The board firmware is Rev P. The UC08 manual on bitsavers is current through Rev H and stops at octal error code "121". I'm thinking it's a cable problem since the firmware will run when no drive is connected, and won't run when one is. One thing, the UC08 is the S handle flavor that has 2 HD50 male connectors. It's made to go to a cabinet kit that converts the HD50 to 50 pin .1" header. I'm using a known good SCSI HD50M to Centronics 50 pin cable. But I had to get a HD50 F<->F gender bender to hook the cable to the UC08. Any ideas? Oops, not wanting to set Michael off again, Any ideas that might help me solve the UC08 problem? :-) Ed K. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 27 13:24:53 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Pixel Machines In-Reply-To: <000901c4a4a2$6fe56ba0$8119fea9@golf> References: <000901c4a4a2$6fe56ba0$8119fea9@golf> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040927132419.0511a958@pc> At 09:58 AM 9/27/2004, Simon - Fragment Media wrote: >I used this machine 1989-1991 in London at a company in London called >Electric Image. Are you saying you have Electric Image's old Pixel Machine, or just sharing that you once used theirs? - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 27 13:46:53 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Just what we all need (semi-political) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > Check it out.... > > > > http://www.ncsoftware.com/images/OutlookForCPM.gif > > Whoever put this together does not know thier computer history. > Wouldn't the address be in bang path notation? g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 13:35:44 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> <4156F896.6090409@jetnet.ab.ca> <90789423-0FEA-11D9-8546-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040927110012.00bcfd00@localhost> Message-ID: <41585D80.3080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > WE HAVE MORSE CODE WHAT? that was a joke ... forget ascii use morse. PS. How will nanotech change the world to some thing better? We have problems still keeping the 'BIG OLD TECH' tech around. > > (I believe that nanotech could change the world within my unnatural > lifetime.) --David M. Palmer palmer@alumni.caltech.edu From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Sep 27 13:33:10 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <415857A0.5080508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927142608.02a59418@192.168.0.1> At 02:10 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: >>Let me guess, you're not exactly popular with the ladies, are you? :) >I guess it is time to start a new mailing list ... >How to collect classic computers & be popular with the girls. I don't know if we need that. A classic computer worked for me. I met my wife at a company outing when I was giving a demo to company brass of a homebrew 6800 I had made to convert NCR digital Philips cassette tapes to 7 track 1/2" tape. She was there, thought I was a brainiac and got interested. And later when I jumped into the swimming pool (it was winter and cold) she knew I was the one! It was a Motorola moment! Ed K. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 27 13:56:57 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Emulex UC08 help In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927140704.02a641c8@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927140704.02a641c8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200409271356.57031.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 27 September 2004 13:19, Ed Kelleher wrote: > I have an Emulex UC08 SCSI <-> QBus board I'm trying to make work. > It actually has 2 controllers on the board. > I can get into the firmware on both controllers fine -- when no > drives are connected. > However, when I connect a SCSI drive to a controller, > I can not get into the firmware for that controller. > Any ideas? I'm not sure if it's a possible problem, but is the SCSI bus properly terminated - at both ends? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 27 14:00:27 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Just what we all need (semi-political) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927145224.052bfda8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > Check it out.... > > > > http://www.ncsoftware.com/images/OutlookForCPM.gif > >Whoever put this together does not know thier computer history. He's got this, too: http://www.ncsoftware.com/images/LinuxBSOD.jpg Damn... and he's from Michigan, too. Now I feel all dirty & wanna take a shower. Blech! Desecrating decent OSs like that... they should be ashamed... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 27 14:02:49 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Survived another one! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040927130236.008f9c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927144306.03b59ea8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > Well Hurricane Jeanne has come and gone. This is the fourth hurricane in >6 weeks and the third that's gone through my area. The DEC and intel stuff >sitting outside STILL hasn't blown away! Not too much damage this time, for >the most part everything that could be torn up was destroyed in the >previous storms. However my roof shingles are finally starting to go. The >power companies are getting GOOD at this. This time they had the power back >on the same day! I think there's going to be lots of houses (or vacant >lots!) for sale in Florida real soon. I went to Home Depot this morning >and it was packed with people buying roofing materials and other repair >items. A lot of them also had "Home for Sale" signs in their carts! Can ya blame 'em? > I haven't heard from Glen. I know he was without power for five then >seven days from the two previous storms and I think he's about ready to >leave the state. Hopefully he keeps in touch (when he can) -- Depending on how far north he (or anyone here) is willing to go (read: Northern Michigan) I'd be willing to lend a hand with moving/storage/whatnot... I have a truck (and seating for 5) & uncovered 5'x10' trailer, straps, tarps, etc... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 14:23:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? I wrote a simple 'sum all words in track N' program for the LGP and it completed as soon as I hit return! It should have taken many seconds... I did RTFM, so no reference to it, but I haven't had time to go look at the source. Got lazy and decided to post instead of research (typical, huh :-) From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 14:27:06 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:33 2005 Subject: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096313226.4074.12.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 2004-09-26 at 11:51, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Ron wrote.... > >>> Why not have it add ascii directly... "1" + "1" = "2" :^) > Who EVER implied a relation between decimal representation and ascii > representation?????????? If you generalize "ASCII" to "character set values" then many machines did just that. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 27 13:31:52 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040923160101.00894620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040927112336.00a75870@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 04:01 PM 9/23/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an >Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and >this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be >made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important >difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the >Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. > > Joe Its a battery backed 400k ram that emulates a floppy drive (actually 2 x 160K). I bought mine new a few years ago, sigh ala 1970's, and it must have been prior to the Sider hard drives otherwise why would I have bought it (could be faster). It was really fast, but I don't recall any special card. OTOH its sitting buried and still hooked up in my office, so I could check when that area rises to the surface. That would be a load I would look over very carefully for any other goodies. It won't be very soon, but when I find mine I will post info to the list. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 14:33:01 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: archiving as opposed to backing up In-Reply-To: <0409270646.AA18445@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0409270646.AA18445@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1096313581.4074.17.camel@fiche.wps.com> OK now! Great! I think we've drifted FAR OFF-TOPIC here, this thread doesn't belong in this list, nor do responses to it's content. I say this with no more authority than any other list participant; I simply don't want to read it all. See how nice I am? Let's every one take our state-approved Happy Pills(tm) and Be Happy and Cooperative. tomj On Sun, 2004-09-26 at 23:46, Michael Sokolov wrote: > It *WAS* deliberate. It was the actual reason for the whole war. The > war was not about oil: Iraq under Saddam was producing a lot more oil > than it does now, and They don't need that oil in the first place since > they have Zero Point Energy technology in Area 51. The war was about > Eden (Iraq's original ancient name), about the Navel of the Earth, and > about control over the entire planet and beyond, over the rest of the > solar system. They wanted Saddam out because he was trying to bring the > Anunnaki back to Earth. He was able to reestablish communication with > them by undigging and reactivating the interplanetary communication > equipment they left there. The entire war was about stopping the return > of the true original gods and goddesses and suppressing the ancient > advanced technologies and their technical documentation and historical > records, which is what they stole from the Baghdad Museum. > > MS, > exopolitical loyalist and friend of Anunnaki, and by association of > Saddam Hussein. Long live Saddam! > > http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Sep 27 14:40:44 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Made first phone call References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927142608.02a59418@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <000c01c4a4c9$e14e18b0$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Made first phone call > A classic computer worked for me. > I met my wife at a company outing when I was giving a demo to company brass > of a homebrew 6800 I had made to convert NCR digital Philips cassette tapes > to 7 track 1/2" tape. Jeez, I can imagine easier ways to "score" the opposite sex ! Nico (ex Philips employee) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From wacarder at usit.net Mon Sep 27 14:44:14 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Made first phone call References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040927142608.02a59418@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <007601c4a4ca$5ee7dfe0$5a120f14@mcothran1> > At 02:10 PM 9/27/2004, you wrote: > >>Let me guess, you're not exactly popular with the ladies, are you? :) > >I guess it is time to start a new mailing list ... > >How to collect classic computers & be popular with the girls. > > I don't know if we need that. > A classic computer worked for me. > I met my wife at a company outing when I was giving a demo to company brass > of a homebrew 6800 I had made to convert NCR digital Philips cassette tapes > to 7 track 1/2" tape. > She was there, thought I was a brainiac and got interested. > And later when I jumped into the swimming pool (it was winter and cold) she > knew I was the one! > > It was a Motorola moment! > > Ed K. Same story here. I met my wife while working on a project where I was programming in a "classic computer language". She was impressed that I was able to quickly program something that others told her would take weeks. My management gave me a free dinner at a fine restaurant for myself and a date. My future wife told me that she would be glad to help me figure out how to eat at an expensive restaurant. We went out to supper and I never went home again except to get a change of clothes once in a while. Maybe it's a South Carolina thing. - Ashley From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 14:56:03 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Survived another one! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927144306.03b59ea8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <41587053.3060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > >> Well Hurricane Jeanne has come and gone. This is the fourth >> hurricane in >> 6 weeks and the third that's gone through my area. The DEC and intel >> stuff >> sitting outside STILL hasn't blown away! Not too much damage this >> time, for >> the most part everything that could be torn up was destroyed in the >> previous storms. However my roof shingles are finally starting to go. The >> power companies are getting GOOD at this. This time they had the power >> back >> on the same day! I think there's going to be lots of houses (or vacant >> lots!) for sale in Florida real soon. I went to Home Depot this morning >> and it was packed with people buying roofing materials and other repair >> items. A lot of them also had "Home for Sale" signs in their carts! > > > Can ya blame 'em? But then they don't have computers holding the house down. You would think by now people would build better weather proof homes, since the bad weather can be counted on. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Sep 27 15:11:34 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBE3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> IIRC from Bob's speech at VCFe2.0, he indicated that simulation speed is effectively unregulated, because why would you want to waste the benefits of a speedy host machine. However, I could imagine that with certain hardware simulations, cycle-by-cycle emulation might be required. On my Altair32 emulator, I have it set to run at the prototypical 2MHz speed (8080A). But, I can unthrottle it and let it run at full speed, which on my Pentium 4/2.8GHz would result in an 8080 running at about 80MHz (+/-). This is accomplished by managing the number of prototypical CPU cycles executed per 10ms timeslice. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Jennings Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: simh simulation speed I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? I wrote a simple 'sum all words in track N' program for the LGP and it completed as soon as I hit return! It should have taken many seconds... I did RTFM, so no reference to it, but I haven't had time to go look at the source. Got lazy and decided to post instead of research (typical, huh :-) From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 15:15:51 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> References: <003b01c4a32f$9392d340$0200a8c0@vaio> <4155C2E8.7080106@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096179340.3691.23.camel@fiche.wps.com> <415663BE.6090603@jetnet.ab.ca> <1096182626.3691.62.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41567FCE.7010801@citem.org> Message-ID: <1096316136.4074.42.camel@fiche.wps.com> re: Zuse, and stored-program, etc... > On Sun, 2004-09-26 at 01:37, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > This web page also seems apropro : > http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/Neumann_vs_Zuse.html First, I don't mean to disparage Zuse's accomplishments, especially under the circumstances he lived in, it's pretty amazing. The idea-of-the-century wasn't machines that calculate automatically, but machines-that-modify-themselves-as-part-of-normal-operation. Other than particular logical arrangement, I don't see how the Zuse machines are an architectural improvement over the IBM and Harvard relay calculators. In many ways it's an unfair comparison, the IBM machines had a nearly unlimited budget, and poor Konrad sat by himself in his living room punching programs into used 35mm film stock, never mind the war going on around him. Less well-known but historically more interesting is his 'planKalculus', his algorithmic nomenclature he worked up to describe computer programs. He even had chess-playing code! It's described in fair detail in A HIST. OF COMP. 20TH CENT. (1980, MIT press) by Knuth. (For the record, PICs are "Harvard architecture"; data and program memory are separate. "von Neumann architecture" is program and data stored in the same memory.) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 27 15:23:07 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Sep 27, 2004 12:23:49 PM Message-ID: <200409272023.i8RKN7Wq032056@onyx.spiritone.com> > I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh > does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? I wrote a simple > 'sum all words in track N' program for the LGP and it completed as soon > as I hit return! It should have taken many seconds... I did RTFM, so no > reference to it, but I haven't had time to go look at the source. Got > lazy and decided to post instead of research (typical, huh :-) > This is typical for most emulators, SIMH runs as fast as it can. For a lot of things, this is the best behavior, but for software that somehow ties to the speed of the computer it is running on, it's a bad thing. Zane From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 27 15:40:04 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to><07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to><024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to><11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net><41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <07d401c4a4d2$2bfffa60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true > that simh does NOT simulate the target machine's execution > speed? Belief is that it goes as fast as it can and the machine architecture type is used only for instruction set/address map, IE all the other things. This is based on doing VAX/VMS on a 670 MHz pc. Another belief I have is that this machine takes 15 ~20 clocks to get 1 instruction, and 15 ~ 20 instructions to get 1 sim instruction... So I get 1 ~ 3 sim VAX Mips here. Anyway, that's what it feels like running. I'd like to hear complaints if anyone thinks I'm way off on the numbers. Not as controversial as the Extra-terrestrial whitehouse I realize, but this what is more important to me and hopefully us. John A. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 27 16:00:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >you create your OR functionality with diodes - use two diodes (or as many inputs as you need) such as the 1N4001 for your inputs. Tie the cathodes together and attach that to the relay coil. Apply "logic high" (whatever voltage your relays operate at) to either (or any) diode anode and the relay will turn on. The relay can be the next stage and does not have to be there to implement the OR. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > Hi You don't need the steering diodes if the lines that provide the terms don't cross talk to other coils. This is pure relay logic and works with AC relays as well as DC. The diodes are only needed when you share complex terms that use the same stack of contact terms but would otherwise cross talk. The diodes allow one to optimize the number of contacts used by sharing common terms. Each relay contact can be used as a term in an equation. Normally open contact can provide inverting function and normally closed contact can provide isolation buffering ( needed for AC but can be optimized with diodes in DC ). Designing with relays takes a slightly different mindset than with normal logic, like TTL. You have to think in terms of inverters and transmission gates. There are no NAND or NOR gates. The function of NAND and NOR is constructed by sharing the contacts of several relays and then using that shared stack to control the output ( that may be another coil of a relay ). Stacking contacts can provide AND like function and paralleling contacts can provide OR like function. Choice of normally open contacts provides OR and AND with inverted inputs, the Boolean equivalent of NAND and NOR. This takes a little more thinking of design because with double throw relays, one has to think of the source as providing the inverting and non-inverting signals. The contacts only provide OR and AND, depending on how they are arranged. Dwight > >Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at >all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays >to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? > > >Cheers, >Ade. > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 08:09:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh > does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? I wrote a simple > 'sum all words in track N' program for the LGP and it completed as soon > as I hit return! It should have taken many seconds... I did RTFM, so no > reference to it, but I haven't had time to go look at the source. Got > lazy and decided to post instead of research (typical, huh :-) I wondered that myself. SpaceWar! on the PDP-1 seems to run at its original speed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 08:10:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040927112336.00a75870@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Mike Ford wrote: > At 04:01 PM 9/23/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an > >Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and > >this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be > >made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important > >difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the > >Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. > > > > Joe > > Its a battery backed 400k ram that emulates a floppy drive (actually 2 x > 160K). I bought mine new a few years ago, sigh ala 1970's, and it must have > been prior to the Sider hard drives otherwise why would I have bought it > (could be faster). It was really fast, but I don't recall any special card. So then where on the Apple ][ would you connect a 34-pin ribbon cable to? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Sep 27 16:27:47 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: At 12:23 PM -0700 9/27/04, Tom Jennings wrote: >I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh >does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? That is true. No attempt is made at mimicking the original CPU speed. However this does cause problems for some I/O devices. In some cases, extra code has gone into working through situations in which an OS makes implicit assumptions about how quickly an I/O operation will complete. Sometimes SIMH executes these too quickly and much fun ensues. John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 27 16:40:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: 78MGT2 and 79MGT2 Message-ID: <200409272140.OAA08240@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "K. Venkataramanan" > >Hi there > >I saw your posting. I think I know where I can pick up these >Regulators. Do you have the datasheets / pinouts so that I can test them? > >Venkat VU2KV > > Hi Venkat These sound like standard 78xx and 79xx series regulators. The 78xx stuff are positive output and the 79xx are negative output. The pinouts on these are relatively standard for each particular package. Note that the negative and positive use different leads in the same package. It would seem that these are 2 volt regulators but I don't recognize the MGT package type. Look on the Jameco web page under regulators and I'm sure you'll find data sheets for similar regulators. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 08:50:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed (fwd) Message-ID: Forwarded from Bob Supnik... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:38:48 +0000 From: bsupnik@comcast.net To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: simh simulation speed Unless the simulator writer inserts timing (delay) code, as Phil did for the PDP11, SIMH runs as fast as possible. In the case of the LGP30, this is many, many times faster than the real machine. /Bob > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > I haven't had a chance to get back and debug, but is it true that simh > > does NOT simulate the target machine's execution speed? I wrote a simple > > 'sum all words in track N' program for the LGP and it completed as soon > > as I hit return! It should have taken many seconds... I did RTFM, so no > > reference to it, but I haven't had time to go look at the source. Got > > lazy and decided to post instead of research (typical, huh :-) > > I wondered that myself. SpaceWar! on the PDP-1 seems to run at its > original speed. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 27 16:47:27 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409272147.OAA08244@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >>From: "Steve Thatcher" >> >>you create your OR functionality with diodes - use two diodes (or as many >inputs as you need) such as the 1N4001 for your inputs. Tie the cathodes >together and attach that to the relay coil. Apply "logic high" (whatever voltage >your relays operate at) to either (or any) diode anode and the relay will turn >on. The relay can be the next stage and does not have to be there to implement >the OR. >> >>best regards, Steve Thatcher >> > >Hi > You don't need the steering diodes if the lines that provide the >terms don't cross talk to other coils. This is pure relay logic >and works with AC relays as well as DC. The diodes are only >needed when you share complex terms that use the same stack of >contact terms but would otherwise cross talk. The diodes allow >one to optimize the number of contacts used by sharing common >terms. > Each relay contact can be used as a term in an equation. Normally >open contact can provide inverting function and normally closed >contact can provide isolation buffering ( needed for AC but can >be optimized with diodes in DC ). Oops!! Should have said normally closed provide inverting and normally open provide buffering. > Designing with relays takes a slightly different mindset than >with normal logic, like TTL. You have to think in terms of >inverters and transmission gates. There are no NAND or NOR >gates. The function of NAND and NOR is constructed by sharing >the contacts of several relays and then using that shared >stack to control the output ( that may be another coil of >a relay ). > Stacking contacts can provide AND like function and paralleling >contacts can provide OR like function. Choice of normally >open contacts provides OR and AND with inverted inputs, >the Boolean equivalent of NAND and NOR. > This takes a little more thinking of design because with double >throw relays, one has to think of the source as providing the >inverting and non-inverting signals. The contacts only provide >OR and AND, depending on how they are arranged. >Dwight > > >> >>Question: Wouldn't it be easier to implement an OR gate with no relays at >>all (just two wires joining together)? Or would you need to use the relays >>to keep the output voltage/amperage regulated? >> >> >>Cheers, >>Ade. >> >> > > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 08:53:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096316136.4074.42.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > Less well-known but historically more interesting is his 'planKalculus', > his algorithmic nomenclature he worked up to describe computer > programs. He even had chess-playing code! It's described in fair detail > in A HIST. OF COMP. 20TH CENT. (1980, MIT press) by Knuth. For a good history of Zuse's early work I highly recommend his autobiography, _The Computer--My Life_: http://www.quantumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=0387564535&Category_Code=03SOFT&Product_Count=856 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 16:47:53 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBE3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBE3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <1096321672.5460.53.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 13:11, Cini, Richard wrote: > IIRC from Bob's speech at VCFe2.0, he indicated that simulation speed is > effectively unregulated, because why would you want to waste the benefits of > a speedy host machine. Wow, I'm shocked! Speed is a front-and-center major feature of a machine, both subjectively and objectively. I might as well ask, ...because why would I want to run an old [slow] machine when I have such a speedy host machine? I have a kludgey simulator of my own, for a bit-serial machine, it calculates memory reference accesses properly (fetch, execute, search, etc) in any organization, so I guess I'll clean that up and make my own LGP-21. (It's a test kludge, the instruction decoder is a crock, amongst other things.) http://wps.com/projects/UM/code/sim (If someone actually wants a new-design vacuum tube serial drum (or switched-capacitor) computer built, and is willing to write checks, let me know :-) > On my Altair32 emulator, I have it set to run at the prototypical 2MHz speed > (8080A). Is that your code/patch in simh? I see a usleep() in the altairz80_cpu code. (It is certainly useful though to "unthrottle" for debugging and testing! An 80MHz Z80 would be umm nice, huh :-) From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 16:55:21 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1096322120.5460.60.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 14:00, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > You don't need the steering diodes if the lines that provide the > terms don't cross talk to other coils. This is pure relay logic > and works with AC relays as well as DC. The diodes are only > needed when you share complex terms that use the same stack of > contact terms but would otherwise cross talk. The diodes allow > one to optimize the number of contacts used by sharing common > terms. You're right, and while diodes would allow you to conjure up arbitrarily complex terms of even relay logic, it's also true that solid state diodes didn't exist back when relay calculators were The Latest Thing, if these questions are leading to 'why didn't they...' Though there's always selenium rectifiers, ugh. Besides being toxic, huge, hot, they are slow and terrible forward/reverse ratio, though likely faster than a relay. They've been around for a long time, I wonder how good they' be as a relay signal diode (shudder). From spc at conman.org Mon Sep 27 17:16:02 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Survived another one! In-Reply-To: <41587053.3060508@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben franchuk" at Sep 27, 2004 01:56:03 PM Message-ID: <20060210225732.CFBE673029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great ben franchuk once stated: > > But then they don't have computers holding the house down. > You would think by now people would build better weather > proof homes, since the bad weather can be counted on. Florida had a (waaaay) below average of hurricanes during the 70s, 80s and 90s. When Mom and I moved to South Florida in 1979, we were there less than a month before Hurricane David threatened the area, only to turn north at the last minute. Then ... nothing until Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Then ... nothing until Hurricane Irene in 1999. It took me living here 20 years before I experienced two hurricanes---my girlfriend's kids took less than 2 years before experiencing two hurricanes. Only now are we getting to above average hurricane activity (at least in South Florida) so *now* perhaps we'll see better built homes. Or homes for sale *real cheap* (which doesn't bother me in the slightest). -spc (At least it seems to have quieted down in the Atlantic ... ) From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 27 17:00:08 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <1096322407.5460.66.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 14:27, John A. Dundas III wrote: > However this does cause problems for some I/O devices. In some > cases, extra code has gone into working through situations in which > an OS makes implicit assumptions about how quickly an I/O operation > will complete. Sometimes SIMH executes these too quickly and much > fun ensues. Good point! The LGP-30 doesn't even have the hardware concept of "IO ready" for the console flexowriter, relying entirely on drum software-delay routines to avoid overrunning it, so I'll have to go look at how simh handles that. I too quickly stated (duh) that I'll go add the sleep code to simh for the LGP machines; it's not that simple. Drum machines have a memory-search characteristic exactly analogous to a floppy sector skew factor search; actual time to execute depends on the most-recent sector (word) and the current instruction. It's not trivial, like it might be with a core/semi machine. SO I'll make my crappy sim into an LGP-xx simulator still. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 16:06:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: H786 troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4152E5FC.6000008@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Sep 23, 4 11:04:28 pm Message-ID: > > Jumped into my first serious PSU repair.. :-) > It's a dead H786 (from a BA11-N), tripped my house's CB initially.. > Traced it to a shorted bridge rectifier...promptly replaced that (with a > higher spec 35A/1000V, original was 30A/600V). > > Put it a dummy load (a 12V/1A fan), fan turns.. YAY! > But to my dismay, 12V o/p measured to just 3.5V while th 5V o/p measured > around 100mV (!). That 100mV output makes me wonder if the crowbar has fired (an SCR across the 5V output that shorts it out if said output goes overvoltage). I don;t know if it's safe to remove the crowbar on this PSU. Normally it is, but, of course, only on a dummy load. If you can then get the PSU to run, you want to look at all outputs with a 'scope to see if there are any high voltage (typically around twice the nominal output voltage) spikes on said output. And if there are, you've got a high ESR smoothing capacitor there. I've seen this more times than I care to remember. > > Throughout all these, a high-frequency whining/buzzing is being heard.. > > Any clues to go forward? > Do I start checking from the output to input or do I move forward from > the choppers? Since there's something on the outputs, the choppers are working. I'd look at the output and regulation sides first. One nice thing about most DEC PSUs of this vintage is that they have pulse transformers to drive the chopper(s). Which means the chopper drive circuitry, the oscillator, etc, are on the isolated side of the supply and you can probe them with a 'scope without having to worry about an isolation transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 16:11:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Gemini / Xebec In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Sep 25, 4 10:04:46 pm Message-ID: > > Hiya > You have posted this to a fairly large mailing list. However, there is at least one Gemini Galaxy owned by a member of said list -- mine. > > I found your email address while searching for information on Gemini > computers and Xebec controllers. I=92ve recently acquired a Gemini = > Galaxy 3 > with a hard drive but the version of CP/M it came with does not have the = > any > software for the hard drive. Basically do you have a any Gemini utility > software for the hard drive, and if so, can I please get a copy. Alas all I have is the minimal stuff that was on the hard disk when I got it, which is not enough to even make a backup of said disk. In other words I am looking for said utilites too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 16:17:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927011541.00ae4e48@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 27, 4 01:23:38 am Message-ID: > Good news: You could even make an Ethernet/Twinax single jack, if you're > not running faster than 100Mbps ethernet, as they run 1/2 & 3/6 for their > pairs -- just use 4/5 for twinax. > > Bad news: *Most* pre-built cables don't follow the standard as to where the > twisted pairs should be - most just go 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - 7/8 - and that's > bad for both Ethernet & twinax. You'll wanna punch down and/or build your > own cables if you're going to do this. What?!?!? I've made the odd 10baseT patch lead, and I was always careful to get 1/2 as a pair and 3/6 as another pair (I think the other 2 pairs were 4/5 and 7/8, but it;s been a long time..) Fiddling the wires into the RJ45 was a pain, but I assumed it was necessary.... And you're telling me commercial cables get it wrong. I knew there was a good reason to avoid them [1], the time in making up a cable is much less than the time to sort out network problems later [1] Other horrors include the IEC mains cable with L/N swaps, one I saw with N/E swap(!), the null modem adapter which couldn't have worked with any normal pair of RS232 devices (4 strapped to 5 at each end _and_ those linkled across the adapter, that will short 2 outputs together...), an RS232 cable that used the cable screen (shield) as one of the handshake lines (!), and so on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 16:20:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <0409270619.AA18264@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Sep 27, 4 06:19:47 am Message-ID: > > jos de waal wrote: > > > I've asked my wife for her opinion on this and she said that she > > would instantly scrap and toss my stuff if she ever found herself in > > a similar situation. I can't blame her. > > Have you instantly divorced her after hearing that in order to ensure > the safety of your collection? FWIW, that was my first thought too, but I decided not to be the first to post it... > > I can't understand why everyone here is having so much difficulty with > their wives. Why did you marry them in the first place? Why in the > world would you want to marry someone who has no respect for your most > important Life's Work? This probably explaines why I have no success with women, but I would agree. Your wife doesn't have to be interested in classic computers (or whatever), but she darn well should realise that if the man she claims to love is insterested in them then they are actually important to some people. And that you'd want your work to continue after your death. -tony From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 17:08:50 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: 78MGT2 and 79MGT2 In-Reply-To: <200409272140.OAA08240@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409272140.OAA08240@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040927180654.03ab2140@mail.earthlink.net> they are 0.5 amp regulators instead of 1 amp as the 78xx and 79xx are At 05:40 PM 09/27/2004, you wrote: > >From: "K. Venkataramanan" > > > >Hi there > > > >I saw your posting. I think I know where I can pick up these > >Regulators. Do you have the datasheets / pinouts so that I can test them? > > > >Venkat VU2KV > > > > > > >Hi Venkat > These sound like standard 78xx and 79xx series regulators. >The 78xx stuff are positive output and the 79xx are negative >output. The pinouts on these are relatively standard for >each particular package. Note that the negative and >positive use different leads in the same package. >It would seem that these are 2 volt regulators but >I don't recognize the MGT package type. Look on the Jameco >web page under regulators and I'm sure you'll find data >sheets for similar regulators. >Dwight From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 27 17:11:31 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Survived another one! In-Reply-To: <41587053.3060508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927144306.03b59ea8@mail.30below.com> <41587053.3060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <41589013.60001@gjcp.net> ben franchuk wrote: > But then they don't have computers holding the house down. > You would think by now people would build better weather > proof homes, since the bad weather can be counted on. > Up in the far North-West of Scotland, we have 90mph winds for most of January. It's no coincidence that any "static" caravans are strapped down with 4" wide truck ratchet straps every four feet. If you want to hang washing up outside, you need to peg it to the line with molegrips. Gordon. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 27 17:25:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20040927112336.00a75870@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040927182514.008d8850@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:10 AM 9/27/04 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Mike Ford wrote: > >> At 04:01 PM 9/23/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: >> > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an >> >Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and >> >this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be >> >made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important >> >difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the >> >Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. >> > >> > Joe >> >> Its a battery backed 400k ram that emulates a floppy drive (actually 2 x >> 160K). I bought mine new a few years ago, sigh ala 1970's, and it must have >> been prior to the Sider hard drives otherwise why would I have bought it >> (could be faster). It was really fast, but I don't recall any special card. > >So then where on the Apple ][ would you connect a 34-pin ribbon cable to? It MAY not be for an Apple. That was just a guess since it closely matches the Apple II drive and there was one in the basket with it. Joe > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 17:39:14 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBE3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> <1096321672.5460.53.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <41589692.9000308@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > (If someone actually wants a new-design vacuum tube serial drum (or > switched-capacitor) computer built, and is willing to write checks, let > me know :-) How about a schematic and or blue prints first. I am sure a lot of people would find it interesting reading. Ben. From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 27 17:57:20 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: <1096316136.4074.42.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > re: Zuse, and stored-program, etc... > > > On Sun, 2004-09-26 at 01:37, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > > This web page also seems apropro : > > http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/Neumann_vs_Zuse.html > > First, I don't mean to disparage Zuse's accomplishments, especially > under the circumstances he lived in, it's pretty amazing. > > The idea-of-the-century wasn't machines that calculate automatically, > but machines-that-modify-themselves-as-part-of-normal-operation. Other > than particular logical arrangement, I don't see how the Zuse machines > are an architectural improvement over the IBM and Harvard relay > calculators. > > In many ways it's an unfair comparison, the IBM machines had a nearly > unlimited budget, and poor Konrad sat by himself in his living room > punching programs into used 35mm film stock, never mind the war going on > around him. > > Less well-known but historically more interesting is his 'planKalculus', > his algorithmic nomenclature he worked up to describe computer > programs. He even had chess-playing code! It's described in fair detail > in A HIST. OF COMP. 20TH CENT. (1980, MIT press) by Knuth. > > (For the record, PICs are "Harvard architecture"; data and program > memory are separate. "von Neumann architecture" is program and data > stored in the same memory.) > > Actually many modern CPU's with caches are Harvard Architecture, the instruction streams and data streams only being mixed on the memory of the caches. I've also heard that machines that mix data and instruction streams are more properly called "Princeton achitecture"... Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from trampolines and such) Peter Wallace From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 27 18:21:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409272321.QAA08287@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I thought I'd show a case where one might want to use diodes. In my logic, 'A' would indicated the normally opened contact an 'a' would be the normally closed contact for relay A. I'll use + to indicate OR and . to indicate AND. Lets say we wanted to create the equation: X=(A.B)+(C.D) We can stack the normally open contact of A in series with a B contact. We can then parallel these with the series of C and D. The output of these can be tied to the coil of X. Now say we also needed: Y=(A.B)+(E.F) We would have to used a new set of contacts for the A.B term because the wires work both ways. If we were using DC relays, we can add a pair of diodes in series with the two AND'd terms used to drive each X and Y. This reuses the same contacts to drive both X and Y. So, as you can see, the diodes are not necessary but can be used to save on the number of isolated contacts needed. One can also play boolian games with these equations to do things like reduce total power required. Since each relay is assumed to have both inverting and non-inverting outputs, one can change where things are inverted: y=(a+b).(e+f) If the case is that Y would be more likely to be active, this second equation makes more sense for power. You can see here that we have optimized the power without doing anything other than change a few wires. We may have also minimized the need for extra contacts and or diodes. Like I said, designing with relays takes a different way of looking at the problem. One can also see that the OR function can be created by putting contacts in series or in parallel, depending on the active state of the relay that one is driving. The same goes for the AND function. This adds another flavor to things because one can move which side of the relay one places the term to optimize, power, delay or number of contacts used. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 27 18:32:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409272332.QAA08293@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" ---snip--- > >Though there's always selenium rectifiers, ugh. Besides being toxic, >huge, hot, they are slow and terrible forward/reverse ratio, though >likely faster than a relay. They've been around for a long time, I >wonder how good they' be as a relay signal diode (shudder). > > Hi They should work. They even have a slight advantage as diodes to absorb the flyback energy in DC relays. The increased forward voltage drop means a quicker release of the relay. Also, I though I'd mention that most AC relays have a small copper shunt coil to help delay the release of the relay between cycles. This keeps the relay from chattering at 60Hz ( 50Hz for UK and Japan ). I would guess the coil does the same thing for a DC relay. Dwight From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Sep 27 18:34:10 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <1096322407.5460.66.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <414F4E23.EEE4797B@compsys.to> <07A04366-0B63-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F76EC.55DD2336@compsys.to> <024F53E4-0B68-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <414F86B1.9E262FB0@compsys.to> <11882A2E-0B7E-11D9-9B4E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <1096322407.5460.66.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: At 3:00 PM -0700 9/27/04, Tom Jennings wrote: >On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 14:27, John A. Dundas III wrote: > >> However this does cause problems for some I/O devices. In some >> cases, extra code has gone into working through situations in which >> an OS makes implicit assumptions about how quickly an I/O operation >> will complete. Sometimes SIMH executes these too quickly and much >> fun ensues. > >Good point! > >The LGP-30 doesn't even have the hardware concept of "IO ready" for the >console flexowriter, relying entirely on drum software-delay routines to >avoid overrunning it, so I'll have to go look at how simh handles that. It's complicated but not fatally so. At one time I coded up a model for Bob of how this would work for a variety of disks on the PDP-11. The model took into account seek time (from current location), rotational latency, and data transfer latency. It was tested on the RL and RP/RM disks and seemed to work quite well. That is, operations took as long (!) as they would have with the real drives. This was about the time Bob was working on an RSX problem where disk I/Os completed too quickly under certain circumstances. The code is not incorporated into the release version of SIMH, but Bob did generate a paper from some of the explorations. Bottom line: don't be put off by SIMH if you think that might be the way to go. It can be done. John From rcini at optonline.net Mon Sep 27 20:25:04 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: FW: Made first phone call Message-ID: <000001c4a4f9$fb964dc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> You know, this whole dust up has me thinking. I wonder the following: (1) if each one on the list should create and publish for "internal" (i.e., list) use a general collections list. I don't mean a complete inventory, but rather a high-level summary of our collections, so that all of us are aware as to what each of us posesses so in the absence of specific intentions in a will people with specific backgrounds can help disperse the collection. Maybe this database functionality could be added to the classiccmp.org site as part of a "member profile" section. (2) if we should appoint several members of the list to a team of collection evaluators/dispersers. This group could consist of maybe 5-10 people each with backgrounds in specific collections (i.e., a DEC guy, a Commodore guy, etc.) so that they can evaluate and manage the dispersal of a member's collection. The #1 guy would be responsible for making contact, and each of us would at least let our relatives/wives/SOs know who that person is so the call does not seem out of the blue. This whole setup may sound too formal for a group without formal organization, but I think it could minimize any future conflicts or hurt feelings. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 9:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Made first phone call When I die, I hope that y'all contact my friends and relatives immediately. The executor of my will would prefer that you bring a big truck, and/or provide dumpsters. If you don't know me well enough to know who to contact, write to deadguy@xenosoft.com -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 20:29:45 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: HP-3000 "Guide for new System Operators" 1986 manual - free Message-ID: <20040928012945.71701.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> I have a thick manual entitled - "HP-3000 Guide for new System Operators" dated 1986. I don't want it, do you? Free for shipping from So Cal 92656. First come first served? No, I hate that. Everyone who responds in the next 7 days will have a fair chance, unless you want to start throwing money at me. I'm making a big assumption that someone may actually want it... Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 27 20:32:06 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: Message-ID: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from > trampolines and such) So what is a trampoline? > Peter Wallace I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. Ben. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Sep 27 20:54:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: M-series at govt. auction Message-ID: <002b01c4a4fe$29bd5960$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was thinking about going for the M series at govt. auction mentioned on the list previously. I noted the condition was F7, which means "broken, repairable" or "needs refurbishing". I don't usually buy stuff there... can anyone advise me if F7 is likely to be something as serious as a dead mainboard? Or could it just be and I/O or memory PCA? Any thoughts? Jay From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 14:05:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040927182514.008d8850@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > At 06:10 AM 9/27/04 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Mike Ford wrote: > > > >> At 04:01 PM 9/23/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > >> > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an > >> >Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and > >> >this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be > >> >made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important > >> >difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the > >> >Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. > >> > > >> > Joe > >> > >> Its a battery backed 400k ram that emulates a floppy drive (actually 2 x > >> 160K). I bought mine new a few years ago, sigh ala 1970's, and it must have > >> been prior to the Sider hard drives otherwise why would I have bought it > >> (could be faster). It was really fast, but I don't recall any special card. > > > >So then where on the Apple ][ would you connect a 34-pin ribbon cable to? > > It MAY not be for an Apple. That was just a guess since it closely > matches the Apple II drive and there was one in the basket with it. Given the circumstances, my guess is that it *is* for an Apple ][ (I've got devices that match the general description), and that the adapter card that it used to connect to is still in the Apple ][ that this used to serve. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mross666 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 22:27:29 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Think back to VCF '97... Message-ID: Just found this on James Willings old site: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.shtml Scroll down near the bottom; there is a picture of a 'DECsystem 10 I/O rack'. Does anyone know who this belonged to? If there's a -10 I/O rack running loose without a -10 to talk to, I have a -10 that's been missing its I/O rack for many years, since it was destroyed consequent to a flood. I think I should talk to the owner of that I/O rack, and soon!!!!! Thanks Mike (latest aquisition at the corestore: http://www.corestore.org/tc08.htm) http://www.corestore.org From spc at conman.org Mon Sep 27 23:01:20 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben franchuk" at Sep 27, 2004 07:32:06 PM Message-ID: <20060211044314.29D4273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great ben franchuk once stated: > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. Back when I took Assembly langauge (8086) at college, I used self-modifying code in one of the assignments (the teacher and I didn't get along and this was my attempt at getting a "rise" out of the teacher). The assignment was to sort a list of numbers in ascending or descending order (depending upon user input) so I simply changed the jump instruction after the compare in the sort routine. It saved either two copies of the routine (differing in only a single instruction), a complicated logical nest in the middle of a sort routine, or using a callback routine. As far as I can recall, that was the *only* time I've ever done self-modifying code. -spc (And it seemed like a good reason at the time ... ) From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 15:03:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <200409272321.QAA08287@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > In my logic, 'A' would indicated the normally opened contact > an 'a' would be the normally closed contact for relay A. > I'll use + to indicate OR and . to indicate AND. You already lost me. You may as well have used ! and $ instead of A and a. :) P.S. C programming convention (which most people would relate to immediately) says that next time you should use & for AND and | for OR. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 15:06:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: FW: Made first phone call In-Reply-To: <000001c4a4f9$fb964dc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > You know, this whole dust up has me thinking. I wonder the following: > > (1) if each one on the list should create and publish for "internal" (i.e., > list) use a general collections list. I don't mean a complete inventory, but > rather a high-level summary of our collections, so that all of us are aware > as to what each of us posesses so in the absence of specific intentions in a > will people with specific backgrounds can help disperse the collection. > Maybe this database functionality could be added to the classiccmp.org site > as part of a "member profile" section. It's already part of the Vintage Computer Marketplace. We just need to dust it off. It's ready to use right now in fact. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 27 23:04:37 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: 78MGT2 and 79MGT2 In-Reply-To: <200409272140.OAA08240@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409272140.OAA08240@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "K. Venkataramanan" > > > >Hi there > > > >I saw your posting. I think I know where I can pick up these > >Regulators. Do you have the datasheets / pinouts so that I can test > >them? > > Hi Venkat > These sound like standard 78xx and 79xx series regulators. The 78xx > stuff are positive output and the 79xx are negative output. The pinouts > on these are relatively standard for each particular package. Note that > the negative and positive use different leads in the same package. It > would seem that these are 2 volt regulators but I don't recognize the > MGT package type. Look on the Jameco web page under regulators and I'm > sure you'll find data sheets for similar regulators. I believe the email he was responding to was one I posted in 2002. The regulators in question are Fairchild uA79MG and uA78MG. They are 4-terminal adjustable voltage regulators with a package style similar to a typical TO-220. The actual Fairchild part number of the regulator that I'm still hunting for is uA79MGU1C. I have the Fairchild voltage regulator databook and responded to the poster off-list. If someone has an electronic copy of the datasheet for these regulators, speak up as it will save me the trouble of scanning the relevant pages from the databook. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 27 23:05:45 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: 78MGT2 and 79MGT2 Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "K. Venkataramanan" > > > >Hi there > > > >I saw your posting. I think I know where I can pick up these > >Regulators. Do you have the datasheets / pinouts so that I can test > >them? > > Hi Venkat > These sound like standard 78xx and 79xx series regulators. The 78xx > stuff are positive output and the 79xx are negative output. The pinouts > on these are relatively standard for each particular package. Note that > the negative and positive use different leads in the same package. It > would seem that these are 2 volt regulators but I don't recognize the > MGT package type. Look on the Jameco web page under regulators and I'm > sure you'll find data sheets for similar regulators. I believe the email he was responding to was one I posted in 2002. The regulators in question are Fairchild uA79MG and uA78MG. They are 4-terminal adjustable voltage regulators with a package style similar to a typical TO-220. The actual Fairchild part number of the regulator that I'm still hunting for is uA79MGU1C. I have the Fairchild voltage regulator databook and responded to the poster off-list. If someone has an electronic copy of the datasheet for these regulators, speak up as it will save me the trouble of scanning the relevant pages from the databook. -Toth From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 27 15:13:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Think back to VCF '97... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Mike Ross wrote: > Just found this on James Willings old site: > > http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcf.shtml > > Scroll down near the bottom; there is a picture of a 'DECsystem 10 I/O > rack'. > > Does anyone know who this belonged to? > > If there's a -10 I/O rack running loose without a -10 to talk to, I have a > -10 that's been missing its I/O rack for many years, since it was destroyed > consequent to a flood. I think I should talk to the owner of that I/O rack, > and soon!!!!! I think that was brought to the VCF by Edwin El-Kareh so he could abandon it. It used to be part of either the CHAC or Perham Foundation collections. Edwin was trying to get rid of a lot of big things starting around then. Anyway, someone took it home. I have no idea who. That whole weekend is a blur. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 27 23:16:47 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <200409272321.QAA08287@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409272321.QAA08287@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3698509E-1105-11D9-98E3-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I had, at one point, sat down and tried to devise a JK flipflop out of relays.. I can do a latch... where (in) pulls in the relay and a NO contact connects v+ to keep the relay in.. but everything I tried just vibrated... :^\ In a relay computer wouldn't one need flipflops for memory? From jtarler at cavtel.net Mon Sep 27 23:38:07 2004 From: jtarler at cavtel.net (jtarler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:34 2005 Subject: HP-3000 "Guide for new System Operators" 1986 manual - free References: <20040928012945.71701.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401c4a514$f59fb530$6400a8c0@jtarlerlap> Steve, Believe it or not, I'm actually interested in this manual. I work with HP3000 computers from time to time at my job (computer disaster recovery) and might find some useful tips and information in it. Here's my address: Jay Tarler 411 W Stafford St Philadlephia PA 19144 Phone: 215-842-1623 If no one else responds, please send it. If they do, then I suggest you toss a coin, ask us to pick a number, or some other hi-tech lottery solution. Thanks. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven" To: "cc" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:29 PM Subject: HP-3000 "Guide for new System Operators" 1986 manual - free > I have a thick manual entitled - > "HP-3000 Guide for new System Operators" dated 1986. > I don't want it, do you? > Free for shipping from So Cal 92656. > > First come first served? No, I hate that. > Everyone who responds in the next 7 days will have a > fair chance, unless you want to start throwing money > at me. > > I'm making a big assumption that someone may actually > want it... > > Steve. > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Sep 27 23:39:12 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from > > trampolines and such) > > > So what is a trampoline? A piece of code used often used for signal handlers that pushes instructions on the stack and then executes them. Newer systems are getting away from this so that the stack can be flagged as non-executable to avoid stack overun screws. > > Peter Wallace > > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. > Ben. > > > > > > Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 27 23:34:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <3698509E-1105-11D9-98E3-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Sep 27, 4 09:16:47 pm Message-ID: > > I had, at one point, sat down and tried to devise a JK flipflop out of > relays.. > > I can do a latch... where (in) pulls in the relay and a NO contact > connects > v+ to keep the relay in.. but everything I tried just vibrated... :^\ I've not actually tried the following, but.... Firstly, You should be able to cross-couple 2 relays via their NC contacts (that is the NC contact of B in series with the coil of A and vice versa) to make an SR flip-flop (I am not sure you can do the next stage -- easily -- with the 1-relay latch). Then connect 2 latches in the stnadard master-slave configuration. Use a fifth relay as the clock input with the NO and NC contacts linking the outputs of one latch to the inputs of the other, with the 'J' and 'K' contacts in series as appropriate. Outputs of latch 1 to inputs of latch 2. Outputs of latch 2, via J and K, to the inputs of latch one _swapped round_. > In a relay computer wouldn't one need flipflops for memory? Registers maybe, but I'd not want to make main memory from relays. -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Sep 28 00:35:04 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relay computers In-Reply-To: References: <1096316136.4074.42.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20040928053504.GA22174@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 03:57:20PM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > re: Zuse, and stored-program, etc... > > > > > On Sun, 2004-09-26 at 01:37, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > > > This web page also seems apropro : > > > http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/Neumann_vs_Zuse.html > > > > First, I don't mean to disparage Zuse's accomplishments, especially > > under the circumstances he lived in, it's pretty amazing. > > > > The idea-of-the-century wasn't machines that calculate automatically, > > but machines-that-modify-themselves-as-part-of-normal-operation. Other > > than particular logical arrangement, I don't see how the Zuse machines > > are an architectural improvement over the IBM and Harvard relay > > calculators. > > > > In many ways it's an unfair comparison, the IBM machines had a nearly > > unlimited budget, and poor Konrad sat by himself in his living room > > punching programs into used 35mm film stock, never mind the war going on > > around him. > > > > Less well-known but historically more interesting is his 'planKalculus', > > his algorithmic nomenclature he worked up to describe computer > > programs. He even had chess-playing code! It's described in fair detail > > in A HIST. OF COMP. 20TH CENT. (1980, MIT press) by Knuth. > > > > (For the record, PICs are "Harvard architecture"; data and program > > memory are separate. "von Neumann architecture" is program and data > > stored in the same memory.) > > > > > > Actually many modern CPU's with caches are Harvard Architecture, the > instruction streams and data streams only being mixed on the memory of the > caches. > > I've also heard that machines that mix data and instruction streams are more > properly called "Princeton achitecture"... > > Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from > trampolines and such) Self modifying code is _very_ strongly frowned upon when working with halfway modern machines, because it messes up the I-caches (which operate best when the memory theuy cache is read-only and there almost guaranteed not to change under them) and therefore _hurts_ performance. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Sep 28 01:44:28 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: M-series at govt. auction Message-ID: <13d.2b1f7a4.2e8a624c@aol.com> My bet from looking at the pictures is nothing is wrong with them. The one pictured looks quite clean and the gaylord (big box) seems to have been carefully packed. Probably missing hookup cables, maybe missing some cards but probably not. What it means is not everything is there to make it work but it looks like it might (repairable). If you can go look at them it is a good idea. It is a long time before the sale ends. Looks like a good one to watch. My bet is they ran test equipment for the F16 that was obsoleted and are pretty complete. good luck. Paxton Astoria, OR From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Sep 28 02:19:58 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Survived another one! References: <20060210225732.CFBE673029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <006701c4a52c$64a51120$0200a8c0@geoff> > Florida had a (waaaay) below average of hurricanes during the 70s, 80s and > 90s. When Mom and I moved to South Florida in 1979, we were there less than a > month before Hurricane David threatened the area, only to turn north at the > last minute. Then ... nothing until Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Then ... > nothing until Hurricane Irene in 1999. > > It took me living here 20 years before I experienced two hurricanes---my > girlfriend's kids took less than 2 years before experiencing two hurricanes. > Only now are we getting to above average hurricane activity (at least in > South Florida) so *now* perhaps we'll see better built homes. > > Or homes for sale *real cheap* (which doesn't bother me in the slightest). > > -spc (At least it seems to have quieted down in the Atlantic ... ) According to last week's New Scientist , you're facing another 10-20 years of high hurricane activity - unfortunately. It says : " Hurricanes have been on the increase over the past decade as part of a multi - decadal cycle. Hurricanes are more likely to form when the Atlantic is warm - as from the 1930's to the 1960's. The decades since the 1960's saw fewer hurricanes , but numbers have risen since 1995 and may not have reached the predicted peak yet. This hurricane season has received more attention mainly because many hurricanes over the past few years have failed to make landfall in the US. " " Look at the Caribbean and it's a different story " - says Alberto Mestas-Nunez from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in Miami. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996446 Geoff. From bert at brothom.nl Tue Sep 28 03:18:25 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relaycomputers References: Message-ID: <41591E51.20029E0A@brothom.nl> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > I've also heard that machines that mix data and instruction streams are more > properly called "Princeton achitecture"... Aggreed, Mauchly and Eckert invented it (for the Eniac), von Neumann only documented it. Bert From bert at brothom.nl Tue Sep 28 03:22:59 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <41591F63.BE9D2D00@brothom.nl> ben franchuk wrote: > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from > > trampolines and such) > > So what is a trampoline? > > Peter Wallace > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. ISTR I saw it in two area's: - delay loop calibration -> delay routine contains a number of nops, jump instruction moves 'upward' depending on amount of delay required in the loop. - one program contained some jump instructions that were replaced by nops (or vice-versa) when a dongle was detected. Found by reverse engineering some DOS software. Bert From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Sep 28 03:02:30 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:55:21 PDT." <1096322120.5460.60.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200409280802.JAA03585@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tom Jennings said: > You're right, and while diodes would allow you to conjure up arbitrarily > complex terms of even relay logic, it's also true that solid state > diodes didn't exist back when relay calculators were The Latest Thing, > if these questions are leading to 'why didn't they...' > > Though there's always selenium rectifiers, ugh. Besides being toxic, > huge, hot, they are slow and terrible forward/reverse ratio, though > likely faster than a relay. They've been around for a long time, I > wonder how good they' be as a relay signal diode (shudder). There were germanium point-contact diodes some of which could handle over 50mA and over 100V so would be ok with lower power relays. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 28 08:17:02 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: M-series at govt. auction References: <13d.2b1f7a4.2e8a624c@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c4a55d$71329b20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Probably missing hookup cables, maybe missing some cards but probably not. > What it means is not everything is there to make it work but it looks like it > might (repairable). Ah, that's what they mean by repairable. I will probably go for these then. Would there be anyone in the norfolk area who could pick them up and drop them off at my shippers terminal in that area? I'd be happy to compensate. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 08:19:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927011541.00ae4e48@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <16729.25803.500000.25630@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> Good news: You could even make an Ethernet/Twinax single jack, if >> you're not running faster than 100Mbps ethernet, as they run 1/2 & >> 3/6 for their pairs -- just use 4/5 for twinax. >> >> Bad news: *Most* pre-built cables don't follow the standard as to >> where the twisted pairs should be - most just go 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - >> 7/8 - and that's bad for both Ethernet & twinax. You'll wanna >> punch down and/or build your own cables if you're going to do >> this. Telephone cords would be wired that way, but I have NEVER seen commercially made network cables miswired. They ALL have 3/6 paired, as required. I saw a miswire like you describe only once -- in a home-made test cable. Our lab had a 100 meter Cat 5 cable for router testing. Unfortunately, it was miswired, so it had lots of crosstalk -- which made it seem that our router's Ethernet interfaces were misdesigned. When I finally figured out what was wrong, I grabbed cutters and cut off the connectors so no one could use that cable until we got it fixed... The one thing you do have to watch out for is straight through vs. crossover cables (for 10/100 BaseT). Straight through goes to hubs, crossover is if you connect one PC to another. With GigE it doesn't matter, just use straight through in all cases. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 08:25:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman ... was Re: Early computers was Re: Relay computers References: <1096316136.4074.42.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <16729.26203.315000.795379@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Peter" == Peter C Wallace writes: Peter> Actually many modern CPU's with caches are Harvard Peter> Architecture, the instruction streams and data streams only Peter> being mixed on the memory of the caches. You could look at it that way, but I don't think that is the normal usage of the terms. Peter> I've also heard that machines that mix data and instruction Peter> streams are more properly called "Princeton achitecture"... Says who? That's the first time I've heard that term in 25+ years. Peter> Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days Peter> (aside from trampolines and such) Self modifying code in the early sense of the word has been frowned on for decades. But program loaders, pagers, and OS components like that all modify program memory -- something that's only possible in von Neumann machines. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 08:46:43 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: M-series at govt. auction In-Reply-To: <002b01c4a4fe$29bd5960$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928094643.0098ce10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jay, I buy a lot of stuff from government sales and I've found that you can't put much faith in the condition codes. Often an item will get a code like this simply becuase the user wanted a newer system. I've bought a lot of items that said they were bad but that turned out to operate perfectly. Knowing the quality and reliability of the older HP stuff I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. My only concern would be that someone has pulled the cards for the gold or for spares. If you can, you look and see if it appears to have the normal number of cards. Joe At 08:54 PM 9/27/04 -0500, you wrote: >I was thinking about going for the M series at govt. auction mentioned on the list previously. I noted the condition was F7, which means "broken, repairable" or "needs refurbishing". > >I don't usually buy stuff there... can anyone advise me if F7 is likely to be something as serious as a dead mainboard? Or could it just be and I/O or memory PCA? Any thoughts? > >Jay > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 08:51:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Axlon Ramdisk 320 ??? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040927182514.008d8850@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928095108.00991100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:05 PM 9/27/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> At 06:10 AM 9/27/04 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Mike Ford wrote: >> > >> >> At 04:01 PM 9/23/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: >> >> > I found this this morning. Anybody know anything about it? I found an >> >> >Apple Disk II external full height 5 1/4 disk drive in the same lot and >> >> >this is the same style, size and color so I'm guessing that it might be >> >> >made for use with an Apple II. However it does have one important >> >> >difference, it uses a 34 pin ribbon cable instead of the 20 pin like the >> >> >Apple drive does so it definitely uses a different interface. >> >> > >> >> > Joe >> >> >> >> Its a battery backed 400k ram that emulates a floppy drive (actually 2 x >> >> 160K). I bought mine new a few years ago, sigh ala 1970's, and it must have >> >> been prior to the Sider hard drives otherwise why would I have bought it >> >> (could be faster). It was really fast, but I don't recall any special card. >> > >> >So then where on the Apple ][ would you connect a 34-pin ribbon cable to? >> >> It MAY not be for an Apple. That was just a guess since it closely >> matches the Apple II drive and there was one in the basket with it. > >Given the circumstances, my guess is that it *is* for an Apple ][ (I've >got devices that match the general description), and that the adapter card >that it used to connect to is still in the Apple ][ that this used to >serve. That would be my guess as well. I'm hoping the Apple will show up in a later lot. It's surprising how often that happens. BTW this same lot contained another Dynamic Sciences unit that works with the R-1250 radio that I found a couple of months ago. I've fired up the radio and it works like gangbusters! The sensativity and selectivity are unbelievable! Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 08:57:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <1096322120.5460.60.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928095740.00a6d5e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Speaking of germanium diodes, I have a LOT of DTL logic cards which use them. If somebody's seriously interested in this stuff contact me off-list and make me an offer. The cards are in like new condition and I can get the sockets for them too. Joe At 02:55 PM 9/27/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 14:00, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> You don't need the steering diodes if the lines that provide the >> terms don't cross talk to other coils. This is pure relay logic >> and works with AC relays as well as DC. The diodes are only >> needed when you share complex terms that use the same stack of >> contact terms but would otherwise cross talk. The diodes allow >> one to optimize the number of contacts used by sharing common >> terms. > >You're right, and while diodes would allow you to conjure up arbitrarily >complex terms of even relay logic, it's also true that solid state >diodes didn't exist back when relay calculators were The Latest Thing, >if these questions are leading to 'why didn't they...' > >Though there's always selenium rectifiers, ugh. Besides being toxic, >huge, hot, they are slow and terrible forward/reverse ratio, though >likely faster than a relay. They've been around for a long time, I >wonder how good they' be as a relay signal diode (shudder). > > From emu at ecubics.com Tue Sep 28 08:58:04 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <41596DEC.2060004@ecubics.com> ben franchuk wrote: > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. I saw it actually pretty often, in computer graphics/imaging. A lot of times you got very fast blitter routines by writing a small function (at runtime) which performs what you like to do, and branch to it. Or just changing the actual pixel-op at runtime, or design the filter the "right" way (meaning that the routine knows already that it starts on odd byte adressess, but can transfer longwords, deals with overlaps, etc) cheers From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Sep 28 08:59:56 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: DEC PRO software Message-ID: Hullo, As a result of me taking over another (Dutch) collector's DEC systems, I now have filled a major gap in my own collection: the Pro 3xx series have been added. That is to say: I have a 350 in the US (a VAX console), and this lot came with both a 325 and a 380. The 325 seems to be a field-upgraded one, as it comes in the "usual" Pro box, not the smaller one, and it was stuffed with RAM, options and a hard disk. So, I guess I am still looking for the "small" 325 ;-) Anyway. The lot also came with a truckload of boxes (binder boxes, ya know) and floppies, so I am now Teledisking all those floppies for later use. I'll add these to my Archive, under the Software>POS section. All manuals will be auto-feeder scanned later, and the results will also be in the Archive, under Hardware>PRO300. Is anything PRO-related online already, other than the update.se archive with Venix and some P/OS images? I seem to have: - P/OS V1.5 - P/OS V2.0 - P/OS V3.0 - P/OS V3.2 - PRO/TK V3.0 - PRO/TK V3.2 - Cobol-81, Pascal, F77, Forth for TK - DECnet/PRO V2.1 plus Toolkit - PRO/Sight V1.0 - PRO/Synergy V1.0 - PRO/COMM V3.0 .. and more to unpack. If anyone wants copies or a trade, lemme know off-list ! PRO-related hardware is always welcome, too... *hint* Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 28 09:26:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: M-series at govt. auction References: <3.0.6.32.20040928094643.0098ce10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <012301c4a567$3630d140$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Joe wrote... > I buy a lot of stuff from government sales and I've found that you can't > put much faith in the condition codes. Often an item will get a code like > this simply becuase the user wanted a newer system. Ok, cool! Thanks for the input! > My only concern would be that someone has pulled the > cards for the gold or for spares. If you can, you look and see if it > appears to have the normal number of cards. I don't need any I/O cards. My main need is a working front panel and mainboard and I doubt they've pulled the mainboard. Of course the memory is different from M to E, so I'm hoping some of the memory sections work. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 28 09:49:52 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Job change and shameless plug Message-ID: <012f01c4a56a$692ba180$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Sorry I've been more unresponsive to email than usual lately. I've been going through a rather gutwrenching job decision - right during the middle of a major implementation for my current day-job employer. The counter offers have been made and delt with and the dust has settled so things should start to get back to "normal" very shortly. Well, actually, better than normal. The new job I'm taking is almost the same pay but only 3 days a week - work from home - with full benefits and total flex time (yes, it's a real IT job, not an MLM *GRIN*). Needless to say, this will give me more time with my collection, this list, etc. It will also allow me to spend much more time growing my consulting practice and internet service (web hosting and colocation), which is really what I want to do full time. So needless to say - if anyone is aware of any consulting/support opportunities in the areas of FreeBSD Unix, sendmail, Bind, apache, mysql, etc. I'd love to hear it. My particular specialty is high availability clustering of both apache and mysql. I'm targeting true consulting rather than contracting. I'm not looking for long term contracts. Just ongoing support, maybe a day onsite occasionally if need be. I can do most things remotely but have no problem traveling either. I'm also a good C programmer but I really prefer to keep that to the hobby side of things. In addition, I'm definitely looking for companies who need a firm to host their website or wish to colocate gear. I've been very pleasantly suprised so far at just how quickly a lot of cheap web hosting customers can add up to real dollars! I won't repeat my diatribe on my datacenter - suffice it to say it's a world class datacenter with serious connectivity - not a couple of servers in my basement. Who knows... might even try to find some companies who still run 21MX gear and want hardware support (lord knows I've got the excess inventory), or maybe I can finally start real work on getting that computer museum off the ground :) Regards, Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Sep 28 10:05:52 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Survived another one! Message-ID: Actually I feel sorry for people that want uniform weather and climate. I also feel sorry for any classic computer that has to survive out in the weather in Florida or the Midwest. /fun on What a bunch of wimps, a little wind and water and everyone wants to leave town. 100 mile wide storm and you can see them coming for days. Here in the Midwest we like our wind and storms a little more concentrated, tornados are a lot more fun. You can see them coming and do the "just barely missed me trick". The sneaky thing about tornados is that they can come at night and you can't see them. They have professional storm chasers for hurricanes with planes, for tornados amateurs in cars. On our lake we always are interested to check the wind speed meters to see how bad it was. I've only retreated under the concrete porch once and watched the neighbor's boat and boat dock flip up into the yard upside down. Weather was clear in about 2 hours. Instant storm, instant storm gone. I keep some of the classic computers in the garage attic to keep the house "down". My wife has only visited there once and made a comment "what's all this stuff". I put it in the attic when the garage was built. There is a nice National Weather Service Doppler radar site very near us, you can watch their web page and when the red storm zone is in the center it's on top of us. /fun off Mike From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Sep 28 10:18:46 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Electromechanical Pong In-Reply-To: <1096056939.4171.25.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1096056939.4171.25.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200409281018.46338.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Friday 24 September 2004 15:15, Tom Jennings wrote: > Same (and more) goes to jacquard loom programming. Clearly that's known, > because there are still such things in use, though I imagine techniques > have improved, but I bet textile historians would know where to look for > that. Speaking of which, the Rare Books room at the library here here (Univ. of Illinois) has a book that was not printed, but each page was woven from very fine silk threads on a Jacquard loom in the 1800s. The thing is about 100 pages. It's absolutely amazing, and must have taken thousands (and thousands...) of punched cards to program the loom. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Sep 28 10:26:08 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: TRIM YOUR REPLIES!!! Re: Yahoo! News Story - Floppy Disk Becoming Relic of the Past (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409281026.08332.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Friday 24 September 2004 14:19, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I know this is a nitpick that's been expressed many times before, but it > bears repeating. > > See the message below. What is wrong with it? I will tell you. There > are 4 lines of reply, and 50+ of original, irrelevant message. Why? > > I ask again: why? Because I was in a rush, and forgot. Sorry. I don't usually do this. Also, I agree with Jules on the top-posting ;) Dan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 11:46:02 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ben franchuk" > >Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from >> trampolines and such) > > >So what is a trampoline? >> Peter Wallace > > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than >subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only >self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. >Ben. > Hi It is interesting that different people have different ideas as to what self modifying code is. Actually, the ability to load code and execute from a mass storage is self modifying. Code that uses a variable value for a table to look up execution addresses is self modifying. Most every multitasking system I've seen are self modifying. I think what people consider dangerous self modifying is when the program alters the actual execution instructions in memory and then executes them. It is strange that this form gets such a large amount of emotional negative response while other types are hardly considered issues. No matter how the code is written, one can make bad code in most any form. One can also make good code as well. There is no reason why self modifying code should be any more dangerous than any other type of coding if done with a complete understanding of what the limitations are. What is the difference between replacing one or two instructions and then executing them or replacing an overlay and then executing that overlay? Other than size, both are doing the same thing. One is forbidden while the other is normal operation. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 12:04:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409281704.KAA08944@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> In my logic, 'A' would indicated the normally opened contact >> an 'a' would be the normally closed contact for relay A. >> I'll use + to indicate OR and . to indicate AND. > >You already lost me. You may as well have used ! and $ instead of A and >a. > >:) > >P.S. C programming convention (which most people would relate to >immediately) says that next time you should use & for AND and | for OR. > >-- Hi I'm sorry, people doing logic have been using + and . a lot longer than C has been using & and |. I specifically stated what I would use. Look at most any pre-C math book and you'll most likely see the + and . used for OR and AND. These are just symbols until one applies meaning to them. I don't see the issue. One should be able to adapt to different conventions because that is the way things will be represented from different sources. I adapt and I hope others learn to do it as well. I don't see the issue with using upper and lower case to indicate normally close or normally open? What difference does it make how one represents it? Dwight From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 28 12:05:32 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report References: <1096056939.4171.25.camel@fiche.wps.com> <200409281018.46338.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: After a super-early workday, I bailed early and headed over to University of Michigan property disposition to see what's what. Still available was a complete S/390 Generation IV for around $1000. This thing is destined for the scrap yard if no one can, figuratively, pick it up. Also available is a RS/6000, though I couldn't get into the cabinet to see what processors it had. An IBM 9-track reel-to-reel cab was next to the RS/6000, but I couldn't identify it. Loads of uninteresting PC junk, a box of ZIP and JAZ drives, some cool old video editing equipment (Fora and Sony), but not much else. I picked up a JVC S-VHS video editing deck from the editing equipment, and a Kensington turbomouse trackball for $55. There were two interesting expansion cards, an "Impact" PCI card with internal audio in and out, and three IDE-style pin connectors, but no external connectors. DVD decoder? Also, a full-length ISA card with a bunch of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets, and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next to the connector. Any ideas? From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Sep 28 12:21:12 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: WANTED ($$$): DEC MXV11-BF (M7195) Message-ID: Hi all, For a project I need one of the above beasties. If you have one (or several ;-) and could be coerced into parting with them, contact me off-list and we'll agree on terms .. Thankee, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From mike-cc at msdsite.com Tue Sep 28 12:29:05 2004 From: mike-cc at msdsite.com (Mike Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC vs Intermedics In-Reply-To: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <41519388.89149A4@compsys.to> Message-ID: <41593CF1.25239.3CF062@localhost> I have an HHC that is apparently made by Panasonic. It is even marked RL-H1400 on the back but doesn't have Panasonic anywhere. There are some other differences from the normal Panasonic. If you remove the Intermedic ROMs, the display shows "No Programs". When the ROMs are installed, the Calculator, File system, SNAP applications, Clock and Printer/Casette don't show up in the system menu. File system, SNAP applications and Printer/Cassette do show up with certain operations and the clock can be set and there is an Alarm label on the display. Also, there is no Claculator labeling on the keyboard template. The applicatios do seem to be present in the system but don't show up in the menu. Anyone know if there is a way to cause these to display? Like an internal jumper or switch or something? Here is a photo of the Intermedics HHC http://www.msdsite.com/vcomp/panasonic/intermedics.html Thanks, From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 28 12:50:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Self Modifing Code was RE: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >>> It is interesting that different people have different >>> ideas as to what self modifying code is. Actually, the >>> ability to load code and execute from a mass storage is >>> self modifying. AGREED >>> Code that uses a variable value for a table to look up >>> execution addresses is self modifying. DISAGREE [the contents of a location containing executabgle code are never changed] >>> Most every >>> multitasking system I've seen are self modifying. AGREED >>> I think what people consider dangerous self modifying is >>> when the program alters the actual execution instructions >>> in memory and then executes them. It is strange that this >>> form gets such a large amount of emotional negative >>> response while other types are hardly considered issues. >>> No matter how the code is written, one can make bad code >>> in most any form. One can also make good code as well. >>> There is no reason why self modifying code should be any >>> more dangerous than any other type of coding if done with a >>> complete understanding of what the limitations are. What is >>> the difference between replacing one or two instructions >>> and then executing them or replacing an overlay and then >>> executing that overlay? Other than size, both are doing the >>> same thing. One is forbidden while the other is normal operation. Since when do peoples reactions and reality coincide? When I was involved in military systems development [77-92] the restriction [for certain applications] against self-modifying code were quite clear: Program memory had to be completely inviolate to change, execution out of modifiable memory was not allowed, AND this had to be hardware enforced. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Sep 28 12:44:03 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:57:40 EDT." <3.0.6.32.20040928095740.00a6d5e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200409281744.SAA12112@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Joe R." said: > Speaking of germanium diodes, I have a LOT of DTL logic cards which use > them. Sounds like a good excuse to make xtal sets to me... I'm in the middle of designing another one...for Long Wave. It'll be about the size of a five-foot high 19-inch rack when it's finished :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 12:59:59 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409281759.KAA08964@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ron Hudson" > >I had, at one point, sat down and tried to devise a JK flipflop out of >relays.. > >I can do a latch... where (in) pulls in the relay and a NO contact >connects >v+ to keep the relay in.. but everything I tried just vibrated... :^\ > >In a relay computer wouldn't one need flipflops for memory? > > > Hi The problem you have is controlling delays. In designing things, you need to consider things like setup and hold timing as well as race conditions. In normal circuits, a flip-flop is composed of two latches with opposite clocks. In normal design, one needs to either make these two clocks non-overlapping or if one clock slightly overlaps the other, the data path between a previous flop and the next have sufficient delay that they won't race. Memories are normally composed of simple latches and not flipflops. Most uP use mostly latch based design and not flop base. Most ASIC's are still using flop based design but they don't have the same speed requirements that uP's have. Another problem you may have been having is that you didn't consider the contacts as being break-before-make or make-before- break types. As was mentioned earlier, some of the relays have things like shunting coils ( loop of copper ) added to allow the relay to hold longer. One can also do things like add capacitors in parallel to the coils to hold a few milliseconds. It is easiest to just use some overlapping clocking system. You just have to think about what happens while the relay is actuating and all the contacts may be open ( break-before-make ). Otherwise, you'll be making a lot of nice buzzers. More than one phase of clock makes things easier. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 13:23:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16729.44060.568043.685293@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: Dwight> Hi It is interesting that different people have different Dwight> ideas as to what self modifying code is. Actually, the Dwight> ability to load code and execute from a mass storage is self Dwight> modifying. Indeed. Dwight> Code that uses a variable value for a table to Dwight> look up execution addresses is self modifying. Not as the term is usually used. You're changing a pointer, and pointers are data. Ask yourself "do I have to flush the I-cache for this to work?" The answer in this case is NO. Dwight> Most every Dwight> multitasking system I've seen are self modifying. I think Dwight> what people consider dangerous self modifying is when the Dwight> program alters the actual execution instructions in memory Dwight> and then executes them. It is strange that this form gets Dwight> such a large amount of emotional negative response while Dwight> other types are hardly considered issues. No matter how the Dwight> code is written, one can make bad code in most any form. True. Part of the issue, for modern machines, is that the hardware gets in the way. If you change code, the I-cache doesn't change (in machines I'm familiar with) so the old instruction may still execute. This makes instruction modification a tricky business. Debuggers do it, operating systems do it -- and both have to pay attention to all the cache magic you have to perform for it to be right. paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 28 05:29:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <200409281704.KAA08944@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> In my logic, 'A' would indicated the normally opened contact an 'a' > >> would be the normally closed contact for relay A. I'll use + to > >> indicate OR and . to indicate AND. > > > >You already lost me. You may as well have used ! and $ instead of A and > >a. > > > >:) > > > >P.S. C programming convention (which most people would relate to > >immediately) says that next time you should use & for AND and | for OR. > > I'm sorry, people doing logic have been using + and . a > lot longer than C has been using & and |. I specifically stated > what I would use. Look at most any pre-C math book and > you'll most likely see the + and . used for OR and AND. What Genius decided that + should be OR, as opposed to AND, which seems actually logical and not counter-intuitive? > These are just symbols until one applies meaning to them. I Right, but it's hard to work around ingrained meanings that have been with you since 1st grade. > I don't see the issue with using upper and lower case to > indicate normally close or normally open? What difference > does it make how one represents it? None, I just felt like pointing out that whoever decided to use the plus sign for OR was most likely insane. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 28 05:30:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > external connectors. DVD decoder? Also, a full-length ISA card with a bunch > of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector > was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an > old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets, > and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next > to the connector. Any ideas? *Possibly* a video-conferencing board. If so, it most likely was one board in a multi-board set. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 28 13:34:13 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: DEC PRO software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012701c4a589$c0fbda50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I am still looking for the "small" 325 ;-) Take some bits out of the one you have :-) > Anyway. The lot also came with a truckload of boxes (binder boxes, > ya know) and floppies, so I am now Teledisking all those floppies for > later use. I'll add these to my Archive, under the Software>POS > section. Does that mean the website is back up? Anyway, I've always had trouble with teledisk and it is an undocumented format. When such floppies were sent via network in DEC they were usually a BACKUP/PHYSICAL of the floppy. Assuming you have a VAX with an RX50 and a handy copy of OpenVMS, it might be worth archiving via this method too. (More than twice the work for you, but some of us will be very grateful should we ever stumble across a Pro or two. BTW: usual file extension for this was .BKP). > All manuals will be auto-feeder scanned later, and the results will > also be in the Archive, under Hardware>PRO300. Excellent! > PRO-related hardware is always welcome, too... *hint* Note to self: Must remember to be re-incarnated as someone with plenty of storage space available :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Sep 28 13:36:27 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <7294296.1096396591658.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> if you have telephone relays, then buzzing is not an issue. The ones I used years ago would "always" make contact. I used the N.O. contact to apply power to the relay once it received a pulse. I can't tell you now how long the pulse had to be (too long ago). Even if you wired the relay as a buzzer, it still made complete contact before returning to the open position. It would "buzz" at around 10-20hz. >I can do a latch... where (in) pulls in the relay and a NO contact >connects >v+ to keep the relay in.. but everything I tried just vibrated... :^\ > >In a relay computer wouldn't one need flipflops for memory? > > > You just have to think about what happens while the relay is actuating and all the contacts may be open ( break-before-make ). Otherwise, you'll be making a lot of nice buzzers. More than one phase of clock makes things easier. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 28 13:36:40 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Self Modifing Code was RE: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <20040928183639.EYZF11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I used to use a lot more self-modifying code in my early days then I do now, you could save precious bytes of memory by storing data values into the immediate operand of instuctions which used them --- I recall a "turning point" when one day I spent a fair bit of time debugging a problem which was related to two level deep self-modifying code - ie: Modified an instruction so that it would subsequently modify another instruction differently - I started to believe some of the nay-sayers about the evils of SM code after that :-) Case where I've *HAD* to use SM code: 8080 general purpose monitor - no way to read/write arbitrary I/O ports - have implemented it both as directly SM code in RAM based monitor, and as a "built" subroutine in RAM for ROM based monitor. Same for 8051 (except you have to overlay CODE and DATA address spaces obviously - this is fairly normal for a debugging environment). Cheers, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From AppleTO at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:39:50 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <200409272023.i8RKN7Wq032056@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com> <200409272023.i8RKN7Wq032056@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1047a6e604092811396d69e2e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:23:07 -0700 (PDT), Zane H. Healy wrote: > This is typical for most emulators, SIMH runs as fast as it can. For a lot > of things, this is the best behavior, but for software that somehow ties to > the speed of the computer it is running on, it's a bad thing. It is the best behaviour? I've seen a couple of emulators which regulate speed, because it is sometimes necessary for games and frequently necessary for demos. An additional advantage is that it reduces the rate at which electricity is converted into heat (ie. it uses less of the host machine's CPU), so my batteries last longer and my hands are less toasty. :) And I think it is fair to say that an emulator which runs at two or three times the original machine's speed will usually be fast enough. (If speed was really *that* important you wouldn't be using an emulator.) From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 28 13:46:05 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <20040928184604.JVWG14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >Part of the issue, for modern machines, is that the hardware gets in >the way. If you change code, the I-cache doesn't change (in machines >I'm familiar with) so the old instruction may still execute. This >makes instruction modification a tricky business. Debuggers do it, >operating systems do it -- and both have to pay attention to all the >cache magic you have to perform for it to be right. This reminds me of a point I wanted to make earlier and forgot - another big issue us that SOFTWARE gets in the way! - todays computing world is much more oriented toward sharing code, and many systems support multiple execution threads of a single copy in core - it causes bad things to happen when one of those threads changes the code :-) Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 28 13:46:38 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001501c4a58b$7c875e60$4d4d2c0a@atx> > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. > Ben. On the CDC6600 - and, for that matter most machine architectures that preceded the IBM /360 - the subroutine call instruction writes a jump to the return address as the first word of the subroutine and then branches to the second. Before Manchester invented "B-lines" (index registers) self-modifying code was needed even for indexing. It is almost a definition of a modern architecture that code need not be (and often cannot be) self-modifying. Andy From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 28 13:51:44 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Speaking of Byte ... Message-ID: <20040928185143.JZWN14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I was just recently given a good sized collection of early Byte magazines. I've inventoried them, and it is a complete series from Issue #2 (October 1975) all the way through to Volume 8, #8 (August 1983) - EXCEPT for Vol 6, #7 (July 1981). .. So .. if anyone should happen to have a copy of Byte Vol 6, #7 (July 1981) that they would part with - please let me know. I also wouldn't mind completing the 1983 year, so Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec 1983 would be of interest as well. [I'd *REALLY* like to get the one missing on the other end as well, (Issue #1) however I expect it would be much harder to find!] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 14:01:30 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality References: <200409281704.KAA08944@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16729.46346.931887.387156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> In my logic, 'A' would indicated the normally opened contact an >> 'a' >> would be the normally closed contact for relay A. I'll use >> + to >> indicate OR and . to indicate AND. >> > >> >You already lost me. You may as well have used ! and $ instead of >> A and >a. >> > >> >:) >> > >> >P.S. C programming convention (which most people would relate to >> >immediately) says that next time you should use & for AND and | >> for OR. >> >> I'm sorry, people doing logic have been using + and . a lot longer >> than C has been using & and |. I specifically stated what I would >> use. Look at most any pre-C math book and you'll most likely see >> the + and . used for OR and AND. Vintage> What Genius decided that + should be OR, as opposed to AND, Vintage> which seems actually logical and not counter-intuitive? >> These are just symbols until one applies meaning to them. I Vintage> Right, but it's hard to work around ingrained meanings that Vintage> have been with you since 1st grade. AND is closer to multiply -- consider that zero times anything is zero, and zero (false) AND anything is zero. I believe the notation comes from mathematics -- group theory (number theory). paul From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Sep 27 23:50:50 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040928045050.GA23476@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 07:32:06PM -0600, ben franchuk wrote: > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. Self-modifying code was somewhat common in the 6502 world. I have seen (and written) several examples for the PET, VIC-20, C-64, and Apple II. It's of limited use in cached architectures like the 68030, but it would work fine with, say, the 68000, 68008, or 68010; but by that time, self- modifying code was "out of fashion" (plus the 680x0 instruction set is so much richer than the 6502 that there's much less need to try it). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 28-Sep-2004 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -48.7 F (-44.9 C) Windchill -90.5 F (-68.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 23.5 kts Grid 344 Barometer 683.5 mb (10496. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 14:07:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409281907.MAA08985@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" ---snip--- > >None, I just felt like pointing out that whoever decided to use the plus >sign for OR was most likely insane. Hi Actually from a mathematical sense, it does make sense. The OR operation can be mapped to the plus operation and the AND operation can be mapped to the multiply operation. One finds that when doing this, many mathematical rules correlate nicely. That is why it was done. Rules like associative and communicative make sense. It wasn't just wild insane mad men. When one understands the reasoning fully, one can except the choices made. It is just that in your schooling, you were never exposed to much Boolean algebra. That is too bad because so much of what we do with computers requires a level of understanding of how it works. Dwight From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 14:08:45 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Sep 28, 2004, at 9:46 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "ben franchuk" >> >> Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>> Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside >>> from >>> trampolines and such) >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level language, the kind of code where the application program actually changes it's own instructions? I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a function, that's not really what I mean. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 28 14:40:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Sellam Ismail >>> What Genius decided that + should be OR, as opposed to AND, >>> which seems actually logical and not counter-intuitive? >>> Actually any "genuis" who has worked with set theory, since the "OR" of two set is the union of those sets, which evauates to "everything in set A PLUS everything in set B". From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Sep 28 14:41:23 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed References: <1096313029.4074.10.camel@fiche.wps.com><200409272023.i8RKN7Wq032056@onyx.spiritone.com> <1047a6e604092811396d69e2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The best behavior, IMHO, is to be able to select what speed to run at. UAE, a very good Amiga emulator, lets you choose which processor to emulate and at what speed, including a setting that runs the emulator as fast as possible. Granted the architecture of the Amiga is a bit more sensitive to CPU timings than most computers, due to it's tightly integrated video and sound processors, so CPU speed selection might be more important than, say, in an S/360 emulator. It would still be very useful, however, being able to select accurate speed emulation or being able to "overclock" your virtual mainframe. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Wayne" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: simh simulation speed > It is the best behaviour? I've seen a couple of emulators which > regulate speed, because it is sometimes necessary for games and > frequently necessary for demos. An additional advantage is that it > reduces the rate at which electricity is converted into heat (ie. it > uses less of the host machine's CPU), so my batteries last longer and > my hands are less toasty. :) And I think it is fair to say that an > emulator which runs at two or three times the original machine's speed > will usually be fast enough. (If speed was really *that* important > you wouldn't be using an emulator.) > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 14:49:30 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:35 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality References: <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> <200409272100.OAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20040928095740.00a6d5e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4159C04A.5080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > Speaking of germanium diodes, I have a LOT of DTL logic cards which use > them. If somebody's seriously interested in this stuff contact me off-list > and make me an offer. The cards are in like new condition and I can get > the sockets for them too. > > Joe Germanium diodes are still a DIME a DOZEN. Germanium transistors now are the rare items. CK772's are worth a small fortune today since they have become collectors items. Ben. PS. Anybody got ham radio stuff on this list for sale in Canada? I need some vintage parts, like variable air caps and dials and coils. From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Sep 28 14:52:27 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology Message-ID: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> from a self documenting sense, it makes no sense... when someone can pick up a logic description and understand it WITHOUT having to figure out what each sytmbol means in the context of the usage, then it is simply more understandable. If I picked up something that had two binary numbers wiht a PLUS sign inbetween, I would not assume that it meant OR, only if you would dig further does the PLUS sign make sense. If you simply said OR, then there is no confusion and it is self documenting. I think Sellam was trying to make this point with regards to symbology. I agree with Sellam about the insanity part... The symbols are arbitrary and WORK as long as you have your language description at hand. -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Sep 28, 2004 3:07 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Relay computers - OR functionality >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" ---snip--- > >None, I just felt like pointing out that whoever decided to use the plus >sign for OR was most likely insane. Hi Actually from a mathematical sense, it does make sense. The OR operation can be mapped to the plus operation and the AND operation can be mapped to the multiply operation. One finds that when doing this, many mathematical rules correlate nicely. That is why it was done. Rules like associative and communicative make sense. It wasn't just wild insane mad men. When one understands the reasoning fully, one can except the choices made. It is just that in your schooling, you were never exposed to much Boolean algebra. That is too bad because so much of what we do with computers requires a level of understanding of how it works. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 28 15:05:18 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level >>> language, the kind of code where the application program >>> actually changes it's own instructions? >>> >>> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function >>> to a function, that's not really what I mean. >>> Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting feature of a new platform by the software vendor who shall not be named, is that the compiler is actually part of the runtime. This means that any program can write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute it!!!!!! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 15:03:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: FA: DEC FlIP CHIP boards & more Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928160352.00899a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished putting some stuff on E-bay that this group might be interested in including some single height DEC FLIP CHIP wirewrap cards, a HP-12C calculator, a box and manual for the HP-11C calculator and a bunch of ROM and RAM cartridges for the Tektronix 83x Communications Analyzers. Those of you that are making your own cartridges for the Tektronix 124x Logic Analyzers will be interested to know that these cartridges will also fit the 124x LA if you trim the locator keys. See . I will be adding some core memory boards as soon as I have a chance (probably a couple of days). Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 15:16:59 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20040928045050.GA23476@bos7.spole.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Sep 28, 4 04:50:50 am" Message-ID: <200409282016.NAA13192@floodgap.com> > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. > > Self-modifying code was somewhat common in the 6502 world. I have seen > (and written) several examples for the PET, VIC-20, C-64, and Apple II. I was about to say that very thing. Due to the paucity of registers and the crammed zero page in the 6502 architecture, I often wrote pointers in-line in my programs (i.e. with absolute or absolute-indexed addressing), and updated them directly in place rather than the classic way of indirect indexed addressing where you have a pointer outside of the program that is updated. In fact, this is still a habit of mine, even when it's not strictly speaking necessary or elegant. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 15:02:07 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <001501c4a58b$7c875e60$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <4159C33F.3060108@jetnet.ab.ca> Andy Holt wrote: > > On the CDC6600 - and, for that matter most machine architectures that > preceded the IBM /360 - the subroutine call instruction writes a jump to the > return address as the first word of the subroutine and then branches to the > second. Before Manchester invented "B-lines" (index registers) > self-modifying code was needed even for indexing. What about later machines like the PDP-8, that I have used. The next machine I build I don't plan to have index registers just simple indirect addressing. I have done one or two designs in a FPGA but this time I want to use real TTL. Anybody got a good web link on decimal floating point,I am not sure how to handle the sign bit with decimal math for adc operations. > It is almost a definition of a modern architecture that code need not be > (and often cannot be) self-modifying. ROM able code does say a lot about how you program your machine. > Andy Ben. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 28 15:24:21 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928161252.00b02ce8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ron Hudson may have mentioned these words: >On Sep 28, 2004, at 9:46 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>>From: "ben franchuk" >>> >>>Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>>>Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days (aside from >>>>trampolines and such) >Can you create self modifying code in any high level language, the kind of >code >where the application program actually changes it's own instructions? > >I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a function, >that's not >really what I mean. Sure... I've seen examples (and made one, *years* ago) in Microsoft Basic on my CoCo. If you consider MERGEing different basic programs (if you MERGE in a new program where line numbers match, most basics that I'd worked with would replace the original statement with the new... if you count that, it was rather common in the CoCo world. I'd seen one in applesoft basic as well -- it had to do with self-populating DATA statements, IIRC. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 15:38:59 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: <200409281907.MAA08985@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928163859.008ec190@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:07 PM 9/28/04 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >---snip--- >> >>None, I just felt like pointing out that whoever decided to use the plus >>sign for OR was most likely insane. I suspect that the plus sign was chosen so that it could be printed with a standard typewriter and/or printer. Remember is the early days most printers only had 64 characters available so the choices were limited. Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 28 15:40:46 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928163246.04e6c470@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: > >>> >>> > >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level > >>> language, the kind of code where the application program > >>> actually changes it's own instructions? > >>> > >>> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function > >>> to a function, that's not really what I mean. > >>> > >Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting feature of a >new platform by the software vendor who shall not be named, Why not? Some of us aren't "in the trenches" so to speak WRT newer software & languages.... I would be interested to know which platform that actually was! > is that the compiler is actually part of the runtime. So, in other words... it's an interpreter. Novel idea, that! ;-P > This means that any program can >write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute >it!!!!!! Lots of languages have eval() nowadays... most people think the use of it is as evil as self-modifying code. Dunno, if you ask me -- it sounds like "yet another gaping security hole waiting to happen" to me... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Sep 28 15:44:50 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040928204450.GA330@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 04:05:18PM -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level > >>> language, the kind of code where the application program > >>> actually changes it's own instructions? > >>> > >>> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function > >>> to a function, that's not really what I mean. > >>> > > Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting feature of a > new platform by the software vendor who shall not be named, is that the > compiler is actually part of the runtime. This means that any program can > write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute > it!!!!!! This "new feature" has been with us for a _long_ time, just not with the likes of C. Having the full language always available and being able to write programs that build, compile and execute programs at runtime without any special tools is one of the many nice features of Common Lisp and in general, most lisp-like languages. Seems again that The Software Vendor That Shall Not Be Named knows where to steal his "new features" ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 16:12:50 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" >>>> >>> >>>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level >>>> language, the kind of code where the application program >>>> actually changes it's own instructions? >>>> >>>> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function >>>> to a function, that's not really what I mean. >>>> > >Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting feature of a >new platform by the software vendor who shall not be named, is that the >compiler is actually part of the runtime. This means that any program can >write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute >it!!!!!! > Hi It was possible to do in early BASIC's that allowed a machine code subroutine calls. One input the code as data and then called it. Both LISP and Forth have the ability to, by program, compile code and then execute it. It is done more often in LISP. This is a different form of self modifying. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 28 16:12:56 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096405976.5590.142.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 16:05 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level > >>> language, the kind of code where the application program > >>> actually changes it's own instructions? > Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. I suppose it's been around in interpreted languages for years. No doubt you-know-who will claim they invented it though (and worse still, most of the users will believe them) > This means that any program can > write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute > it!!!!!! Sounds like a dream come true for virus writers :-) cheers, Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 16:46:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> On Sep 28, 2004, at 9:46 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>> From: "ben franchuk" >>> >>> Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>>> Isn't self modifying code pretty much deprecated these days >>>> (aside from trampolines and such) >>>> Ron> Can you create self modifying code in any high level language, Ron> the kind of code where the application program actually changes Ron> it's own instructions? Ron> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a Ron> function, that's not really what I mean. I think the answer is "usually not". C is an exception, as you noted. So is Espol, the OS writing language on Burroughs mainframes. I'd also exclude systems (like PDP11s) which have a program overlay mechanism -- that too of course is self-modifying code, and generally would be supported with any language used on that system, high level languages included. paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 28 17:07:02 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: As many of you have pointed out there have been tools for generating programs from within programs for a long time. There have also been many programming environments which did not need a complete compiler. To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is the first run-time environment [not development environment] in which a compiler, linker and all of the associated capabilities are included. If you have a windows machine [XP, 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of these tools are already resident on your machines! From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 28 17:00:20 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: FA: DEC FlIP CHIP boards & more In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040928160352.00899a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928172606.03c4ae08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: >[snip] > I will be adding >some core memory boards as soon as I have a chance (probably a couple of >days). Are any of these core boards dead beyond repair? I'd like one just for display, but I certainly don't want to gut a good (or repairable) store just to slap it on the wall... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 17:09:34 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16729.57630.311905.489914@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> From: "David V. Corbin" >>>>> >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level >>>>> language, the kind of code where the application program >>>>> actually changes it's own instructions? >>>>> >>>>> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to >>>>> a function, that's not really what I mean. >>>>> >> Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting >> feature of a new platform by the software vendor who shall not be >> named, is that the compiler is actually part of the runtime. This >> means that any program can write source code to a string (or other >> structure) and compile and execute it!!!!!! >> Dwight> Hi It was possible to do in early BASIC's that allowed a Dwight> machine code subroutine calls. One input the code as data and Dwight> then called it. Both LISP and Forth have the ability to, by Dwight> program, compile code and then execute it. It is done more Dwight> often in LISP. Good point about Forth. I wouldn't say LISP does it more -- whenever you feed code to a Forth system, it's doing this, so it does it all the time every time... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 28 17:13:02 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16729.57838.826402.428272@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> As many of you have pointed out there have been tools for David> generating programs from within programs for a long David> time. There have also been many programming environments which David> did not need a complete compiler. David> To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is David> the first run-time environment [not development environment] David> in which a compiler, linker and all of the associated David> capabilities are included. If you have a windows machine [XP, David> 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of these David> tools are already resident on your machines! You mean -- as opposed to having to install a developer's package for it? If that's what you mean, then the answer is no, not by many decades. Unix boxes pretty much uniformly come with all that. BASIC systems always had it, as did LISP boxes, or FORTH systems. All that goes back to the 1970s if not before. And of course, any large machine (timesharing or batch) has always had all this stuff as a matter of course. The closest you might come is that some of these systems would offer some languages standard, and some as extra cost options. Developer's kits are largely a PC invention, I would say. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 28 17:22:45 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096410165.5608.157.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 18:07 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is the first > run-time environment [not development environment] in which a compiler, > linker and all of the associated capabilities are included. If you have a > windows machine [XP, 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of > these tools are already resident on your machines! Hmm, interesting point. PHP's the example which immediately springs to mind - I believe it has the equivalent of eval to execute dynamically generated code (and these days is available in standalone flavours). Not sure if it beat .net to availability though. Doesn't Perl have something along these lines? I'd be surprised if not. Unix shell scripts qualify too I suppose. And Java comes close, but with the added security of the compiler being seperate. (And with the exception of Unix shell scripts, they'll all work on any modern platform, not just one particular line) cheers, Jules From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 17:06:03 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <1096405976.5590.142.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096405976.5590.142.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <96A94B78-119A-11D9-8234-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 28, 2004, at 2:12 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 16:05 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level >>>>> language, the kind of code where the application program >>>>> actually changes it's own instructions? >> Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. > > I suppose it's been around in interpreted languages for years. No doubt > you-know-who will claim they invented it though (and worse still, most > of the users will believe them) Or they will try to patent it. > >> This means that any program can >> write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and >> execute >> it!!!!!! > > Sounds like a dream come true for virus writers :-) > > cheers, > > Jules > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 28 17:57:00 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <16729.57838.826402.428272@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928184315.04e1ca58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul Koning may have mentioned these words: >If that's what you mean, then the answer is no, not by many decades. >Unix boxes pretty much uniformly come with all that. BASIC systems >always had it, as did LISP boxes, or FORTH systems. All that goes >back to the 1970s if not before. And of course, any large machine >(timesharing or batch) has always had all this stuff as a matter of >course. The closest you might come is that some of these systems >would offer some languages standard, and some as extra cost options. > >Developer's kits are largely a PC invention, I would say. I wouldn't -- if you wanted to develop in a program that didn't already come with the machine. There were developer kits for COBOL, Pascal, etc. for OS-9 on the CoCos (heck, Basic09 didn't even come with it initially ($99 option) - not until OS-9 Level II for the CoCo3 was it standard)... However, I'd say that most early computers came with one built-in language standard so you could actually *do* something with the computer... nowadays that's no longer true.[1] Heck, even IBM made sure that some form of BASIC or APL was included with their early OSs... Did OS/2 come with a BASIC? I think they're a Micro$oft conspiracy... You by an OS, then you have to buy something else so you can actually *do* something with the OS... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] and it sucks, too! Like it would've been hard to include a basic BASIC on the palm. Instead, it does nothing but keep notes & numbers... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 28 18:08:25 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: MIPS R6000 and R8000 manuals, real 680x0, and others... Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040928180449.10d6c088@pc> I recently had an email conversation with Ralf Baechle regarding some manuals he'd scanned: > Yes, if you have other old manuals, I will pass them > along to other classic computer archivists. Did you > can them yourself or did you collect them from the net? Both. The ones I scanned myself are the R6000 and R8000 manuals - extremly rare documents. I managed to get hold of them while still working for SGI and only recently got permission from MIPS Technologies to publish the manuals. The two manuals would be the R6000 and R8000 manuals. They're available via ftp on bacchus.net.dhis.org:/pub/mips/ I also scanned manuals for the WD33C93 and WD33C95 SCSI chips. Those however I don't have permission to publish, so they're not on my ftp server. And of course a whole bunch more that I downloaded from random places on the net over the past decade ... I btw convert my scans into PDF files for which nice reader software is available. [...] I found proper 68000, 68020, 68030, 68040 and 68060 manuals on the net, that is "real" pdf files, not scans. These are the URLs: http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRM.pdf http://www.freescale.com/files/archives/doc/ref_manual/M68000PRMER.txt http://bellota.ele.uva.es/~jesus/datasheets/motorola/68000UM.pdf http://dac.escet.urjc.es/docencia/Micros/DataSheet/CPU/motorola/68020um.pdf http://dac.escet.urjc.es/docencia/Micros/DataSheet/CPU/motorola/68060um.pdf http://dac.escet.urjc.es/docencia/Micros/DataSheet/CPU/motorola/060d.pdf http://www.tornado.nsk.ru/support/docs/68030UM.pdf http://www.tornado.nsk.ru/support/docs/68040um.pdf And this one is scanned but given the age I wasn't exactly expecting a Postscript or PDF file ... http://bellota.ele.uva.es/~jesus/datasheets/motorola/6809.pdf Ralf From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 28 18:58:52 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: Steve Thatcher "Re: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology" (Sep 28, 15:52) References: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10409290058.ZM10812@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 28 2004, 15:52, Steve Thatcher wrote: > from a self documenting sense, it makes no sense... > > when someone can pick up a logic description and understand it WITHOUT having to figure out what each sytmbol means in the context of the usage, then it is simply more understandable. If I picked up something that had two binary numbers wiht a PLUS sign inbetween, I would not assume that it meant OR, only if you would dig further does the PLUS sign make sense. If you simply said OR, then there is no confusion and it is self documenting. I think Sellam was trying to make this point with regards to symbology. > > I agree with Sellam about the insanity part... The symbols are > arbitrary and WORK as long as you have your language description at > hand. I don't -- agreed the symbols are to *some* extent arbitrary, but I agree with Dwight. If they're arbitrary, then +/. are just as good as |/&. The symbols Dwight used are part of *the* standard for logic expression in Boolean mathematics, and make good sense if you think about it (or know a little about it). The overloading of multiple context-sensitive meanings for things is common in mathematics, programming, and lots of other places. You just have to learn to live with it. If you learn a new discipline or language, you have to learn the semantics (just as a physicist knows that stress and strain are two different things while the man in the street, having read his OED, "knows" they're the same). Do you expect to pick up a book on some strange programming language or some new science and understand the syntax without some explanation? As for confusing addition and the logical OR function with binary numbers, you don't normally perform logic on binary numbers, only on bits representing truth values. Describing "1011 OR 0101" as part of a logic equation is sloppy; it's actually four put together. And lastly, AND and OR are just two binary logic functions. There are fourteen more, if remember my first year maths, all with ASCII symbols, all of which predate C. I sympathise with those who've not seen it before. It can be hard to understand at first; logic is not common sense. It is, however, logical :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 28 19:00:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 28, 4 03:29:07 am Message-ID: > What Genius decided that + should be OR, as opposed to AND, which seems > actually logical and not counter-intuitive? A set-theorist, I guess. It's acutally a very sensible notation, AND is much closer to multiplication than addition... A sort-of way to justify this. If take 0 as false and anything greater than 0 as true (and some BASICs did just that), then multiplying two 'logical' variables is the way you AND them (if either is false (that is 0), then the product is 0 and thuse false, if both are true (>0), then the product is also true), and adding them is the way you OR them (if both are false (0), then the result is false, if either or both are true, the result is true). > > > These are just symbols until one applies meaning to them. I > > Right, but it's hard to work around ingrained meanings that have been with > you since 1st grade. The problem is you're confusing addition with AND. They have little to do with each other. k -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 28 11:41:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > when someone can pick up a logic description and understand it WITHOUT > having to figure out what each sytmbol means in the context of the > usage, then it is simply more understandable. If I picked up something > that had two binary numbers wiht a PLUS sign inbetween, I would not > assume that it meant OR, only if you would dig further does the PLUS > sign make sense. If you simply said OR, then there is no confusion and > it is self documenting. I think Sellam was trying to make this point > with regards to symbology. Right. What I was getting at is that there were plenty of other symbols on the typewriter or keypunch to choose from. Having gotten the explanation as to why those operations were chosen, it does make sense and is somewhat elegant (I'll reluctantly concede), but it's still stupid as far as I'm concerned. Why didn't they use * or X for AND then? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Sep 28 19:01:34 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <1096410165.5608.157.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928185928.0bcf2e48@localhost> You can download the activeperl package and get it all for free, plus, it's cross-platform. http://activestate.com/ActivePerl or maybe just http://activestate.com/ At 10:22 PM 9/28/2004 +0000, you wrote: >On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 18:07 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > > To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is the first > > run-time environment [not development environment] in which a compiler, > > linker and all of the associated capabilities are included. If you have a > > windows machine [XP, 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of > > these tools are already resident on your machines! > >Hmm, interesting point. PHP's the example which immediately springs to >mind - I believe it has the equivalent of eval to execute dynamically >generated code (and these days is available in standalone flavours). Not >sure if it beat .net to availability though. > >Doesn't Perl have something along these lines? I'd be surprised if not. > >Unix shell scripts qualify too I suppose. > >And Java comes close, but with the added security of the compiler being >seperate. > >(And with the exception of Unix shell scripts, they'll all work on any >modern platform, not just one particular line) > >cheers, > >Jules [Alcohol] Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. --Dave Barry --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Sep 28 18:58:45 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060211044314.29D4273029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4158BF16.50207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928185759.00b8b350@localhost> I use a lot of self-modifying code: Perl scripts that generate HTML code! Maybe that doesn't count... At 11:43 PM 2/10/2006 -0500, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great ben franchuk once stated: > > > > I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than > > subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only > > self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. > > Back when I took Assembly langauge (8086) at college, I used >self-modifying code in one of the assignments (the teacher and I didn't get >along and this was my attempt at getting a "rise" out of the teacher). The >assignment was to sort a list of numbers in ascending or descending order >(depending upon user input) so I simply changed the jump instruction after >the compare in the sort routine. It saved either two copies of the routine >(differing in only a single instruction), a complicated logical nest in the >middle of a sort routine, or using a callback routine. > > As far as I can recall, that was the *only* time I've ever done >self-modifying code. > > -spc (And it seemed like a good reason at the time ... ) [Wickedness] Wickedness is a myth invented by good people to account for the curious attraction of others. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 28 11:53:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <1096405976.5590.142.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 16:05 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > > >>> >>> > > >>> Can you create self modifying code in any high level > > >>> language, the kind of code where the application program > > >>> actually changes it's own instructions? > > Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. > > I suppose it's been around in interpreted languages for years. No doubt > you-know-who will claim they invented it though (and worse still, most > of the users will believe them) Just wait until they attempt to patent it. Which will pale compared to when they are actually awarded the patent. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 20:12:56 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <415A0C18.1070302@pacbell.net> Ron Hudson wrote: ... > Can you create self modifying code in any high level language, the kind > of code > where the application program actually changes it's own instructions? Back in high school I learned to program on a Wang 2200, which has only BASIC, interpreted in microcode. Just for the entertainment value, I wrote a program that would allow you to enter an arbitrary function as a string and then would graph that function over the range specified. It would have been possible to interpret that string to evaluate the function at each point, but I did something relevant to the above question. The 2200 had a block oriented tape system that allowed programs to read, write, and step through blocks arbitrarily. I took the string that the user hand entered, tokenized it, and wrote it out as a one line program to the three blocks on the tape immediately following the graphing program (program header block, program block, program trailer block). The program would then OPEN the program just written, which would change line 1000 which was something like 1000 DEFFNY(X)=X but with the right hand side replaced with the desired function. Although writing out the function and reading it back in took four or five seconds, the speed of the graphing more than made up for it. This was about the time that I figured out that the only difference between "protected" programs (can be run but not saved, listed, or modified) was a single bit at the start of the block header. It took about five lines of code to open a block, flip the bit, and write it back, thereby defeating the protection. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 20:16:26 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <200409290116.SAA09277@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Peters" > >I use a lot of self-modifying code: Perl scripts that generate HTML code! > >Maybe that doesn't count... > Hi Tom Only counts if it then calls the HTML is generates. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 20:21:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology Message-ID: <200409290121.SAA09284@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> when someone can pick up a logic description and understand it WITHOUT >> having to figure out what each sytmbol means in the context of the >> usage, then it is simply more understandable. If I picked up something >> that had two binary numbers wiht a PLUS sign inbetween, I would not >> assume that it meant OR, only if you would dig further does the PLUS >> sign make sense. If you simply said OR, then there is no confusion and >> it is self documenting. I think Sellam was trying to make this point >> with regards to symbology. > >Right. What I was getting at is that there were plenty of other symbols >on the typewriter or keypunch to choose from. > >Having gotten the explanation as to why those operations were chosen, it >does make sense and is somewhat elegant (I'll reluctantly concede), but >it's still stupid as far as I'm concerned. Why didn't they use * or X >for AND then? Hi Sellam Some do use * or X. Would that have helped you? Although, others seem to to describe things like set theory, I can show a simple example of the practical use. A.(B+C) = A.B + A.C ( just like ordinary math ) A+(B+C) = (A+B)+C ( again, just like ordinary math ) Other than that, I don't think there is a good reason. Dwight From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 20:23:06 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928163246.04e6c470@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928163246.04e6c470@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <415A0E7A.7030406@pacbell.net> I month or so ago I prattled on about what I recalled about the BTI Computer Systems architecture, where I worked for a year back in 85/86. That machine had an instruction to execute an instruction that was held in a register! Kind of like the perl exec() function, for one instruction. I imagine it could have been useful for single stepping and other debugging operations. From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Sep 28 20:25:43 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007801c4a5c3$3d31b4d0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > Why didn't they use * or X for AND then? The period is a convenient substitution for a dot that was used in math to indicate multiplication (the "real" symbol is usually represented as more vertically centered within the character cell). I have some books that also use "x", but that character is again a more (or sometimes less) stylized glyph than the simple upper- or lowercase "X". By the way, that plus (or) symbol in those same books is often a plus inside a circle. So I suspect the use of plain-old-plus is again a convenient substitution into ASCII. Patrick From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Sep 28 20:41:20 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: <10409290058.ZM10812@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <10409290058.ZM10812@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040928213958.02f8b3e0@mail.earthlink.net> you are certainly welcome to your opinion... I happen to be a development engineer in both hardware and software for the last 27 years. I look at things so normal people can understand them rather than obscuring things. > I agree with Sellam about the insanity part... The symbols are > > arbitrary and WORK as long as you have your language description at > > hand. > >I don't -- agreed the symbols are to *some* extent arbitrary, but I >agree with Dwight. If they're arbitrary, then +/. are just as good as >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 20:57:49 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <200409290116.SAA09277@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at "Sep 28, 4 06:16:26 pm" Message-ID: <200409290157.SAA14978@floodgap.com> > > I use a lot of self-modifying code: Perl scripts that generate HTML code! > > Maybe that doesn't count... > Hi Tom > Only counts if it then calls the HTML is generates. > Dwight Well, if that's what you want, http://www.floodgap.com/httpi/program.html#inpl -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Death to spammers! http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ ----------------------------- From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Sep 28 20:53:16 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Code Generation In-Reply-To: <1096410165.5608.157.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: >>> >>> Doesn't Perl have something along these lines? I'd be >>> surprised if not. >>> I am taling about features build into the run-time of the language, not access to external tools [such as what ships with Unix and many other environments]. The Perl eval() is relatively close in functionallity to what I am referring to [In the .NET platform] as are capabilities in Forth and Lisp. The difference is that these languagages are to some degree interpreted, they do not normally compile down to native executable code. However these types of constructs do perform roughly equivilant functions. With the dynamic assembly you can go from source code to native instruction and even persist [save] the results between runs in many different ways. Also the code generator is capable of supporting different .Net languages. This means that a C# program can write and excute Cobol code, or a Visual Basic program could write Fortran code and execute it. I have a large number of complaints and gripes against Microsoft, but after working in this environment for the past 3 years [I have been in the computer field nearly 30 years] I do have to say it is the most comprehensive programming environment I have ever worked in. Given that it is only at version 1.1 [with version 2.0 currently in Beta (and I am in the Beta program)], it is sure to have a large impact on professional software development. I know there are a few people on this list who still make an active living working with the older environments, and more power to them! If I could find a good paying position developing RSX-11M based software [Or even better PAL-8], I would jump on it in a minute. The general truth is that a Microsoft environment is the most convient way to make a living developing software. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 21:23:06 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <415A0E7A.7030406@pacbell.net> from Jim Battle at "Sep 28, 4 08:23:06 pm" Message-ID: <200409290223.TAA14764@floodgap.com> > I month or so ago I prattled on about what I recalled about the BTI > Computer Systems architecture, where I worked for a year back in 85/86. > > That machine had an instruction to execute an instruction that was held > in a register! Kind of like the perl exec() function, for one > instruction. I imagine it could have been useful for single stepping > and other debugging operations. ITYM "eval" -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Look busy. Jesus is coming soon. ------------------------------------------- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 21:15:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality Message-ID: <200409290215.TAA09300@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ron Hudson" > >I had, at one point, sat down and tried to devise a JK flipflop out of >relays.. > >I can do a latch... where (in) pulls in the relay and a NO contact >connects >v+ to keep the relay in.. but everything I tried just vibrated... :^\ > >In a relay computer wouldn't one need flipflops for memory? > I thought I'd take on the challenge. Doing a JK with relays. First, define the clocking and, for Sellam, the state of the contacts. I will define relays as numbers and there contacts as O for normally open and C for normally closed. As an example R1C will be one of the normally closed contacts. If this name is used multiple times, it may indicate more than one set of contacts, depending on the optimization used. There will be 4 clocks. It will look as: One cycle of clock. P0 C O C C C C ( Hold clock for R1 ) P1 O C C O O O ( evaluate clock for R1 ) P2 C C C C O C ( Hold clock for R2 ) P3 O O O O C C ( evaluate clock for R2 ) O means open contact at that time and C means closed during that time. The JK flop is composed of two relays, R1 and R2. R2 contacts correspond to the Q and Q* outputs( R2O and R2C ). R1 or R2 by itself would be the coil. I also show the complete path from rail to return, even if it is duplicated at some points. JO and KO are normally open contacts of some other relay that when activated is the logical signal corresponding to J and K. Wiring: Rail to R1O to P0 to R1 to return Rail to R2O to KC to JC to P1 to R1 to return Rail to JC to KO to P1 to R1 to return Rail to R2C to JO to KO to P1 to R1 to return Rail to R2O to P2 to R2 to return Rail to R1O to P3 to R2 to return I would not use a JK flop for a memory array, even if I was using normal relays for the memory. The are too wasteful of contacts and coils. There is some optimization that could be done with diodes as well. One can generate the clocks with relays or some kind of distributor, similar to what is used on a teletype and a variable speed motor. If done with relays, one would need some way to control the speed. It might make sense to invert the signal between the two relays so that regardless of the state, only one relay, on averagel would be on at a time. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 28 13:22:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: <200409290121.SAA09284@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Some do use * or X. Would that have helped you? Although, others > seem to to describe things like set theory, I can show a simple > example of the practical use. > > A.(B+C) = A.B + A.C ( just like ordinary math ) > A+(B+C) = (A+B)+C ( again, just like ordinary math ) Ok, I'm convinced :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 28 21:14:05 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology References: <007801c4a5c3$3d31b4d0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Message-ID: <415A1A6D.50201@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick/VCM SysOp wrote: > By the way, that plus (or) symbol in those same books is often a plus inside > a circle. So I suspect the use of plain-old-plus is again a convenient > substitution into ASCII. No that is exclusive or, see xor instruction. I really don't like the real logic symbols used for boolan logic. > Patrick PS. Crappy spelling day From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 21:17:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology Message-ID: <200409290217.TAA09306@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Patrick/VCM SysOp" > >> Why didn't they use * or X for AND then? > >The period is a convenient substitution for a dot that was used in math to >indicate multiplication (the "real" symbol is usually represented as more >vertically centered within the character cell). I have some books that also >use "x", but that character is again a more (or sometimes less) stylized >glyph than the simple upper- or lowercase "X". > >By the way, that plus (or) symbol in those same books is often a plus inside >a circle. So I suspect the use of plain-old-plus is again a convenient >substitution into ASCII. > >Patrick Hi Most times, a plus in a circle is to indicate an exclusive-or. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 28 21:44:43 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Poly88 on ebay Message-ID: <200409290244.TAA09317@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I was watching the auction of the Poly88 on ebay. I was astounded that the orange toaster went for 1358USD. I do hope that the person that is buying it realizes that the boards inside are not the orginal Polymorphic boards. Still, it is a nice looking box but that is a little high priced for a power supply and motherboard. Dwight From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 28 21:54:16 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040929025416.GE10398@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 04:05:18PM -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > Actually this is (sort of) becoming more common. One exciting feature of a > new platform by the software vendor who shall not be named, is that the > compiler is actually part of the runtime. This means that any program can > write source code to a string (or other structure) and compile and execute > it!!!!!! You mean like Perl's 'eval'? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Sep-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.1 F (-48.4 C) Windchill -97.8 F (-72.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.9 kts Grid 013 Barometer 683.5 mb (10496. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From eric at rothfus.com Tue Sep 28 21:59:19 2004 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Computer Museum looking for a new home Starting bid: US $99, 000.00 (Reserve not met) Message-ID: <1096421599@rothfus.com> (not sold by me & cross-posted from another list) "The entire Freeman PC Museum is offered for sale. David Freeman, founder of ACP Superstore, has been collecting computers since 1976. As a pioneer in computer retailing Mr. Freeman started early collecting. This collection represents almost 30 years of collecting. To date over 280 computers have been place online at www.thepcmuseum.net. There are approximately 600 computers, calculators, printers, video game consoles in the collection. Not all of the computers have been placed on the website as of yet, but all are included in this sale. Everything is included. Many items in this collection are irreplaceable and no longer available. This collection includes countless software titles, manuals, books, magazines and other computer memorabiia. You could truly display a PC Museum in your place of business with this collection...." http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5125710949 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 28 22:10:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: FA: DEC FlIP CHIP boards & more In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928172606.03c4ae08@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040928160352.00899a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928231032.00a35100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:00 PM 9/28/04 -0400, Roger wrote: >Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: >>[snip] >> I will be adding >>some core memory boards as soon as I have a chance (probably a couple of >>days). > >Are any of these core boards dead beyond repair? I'd like one just for >display, but I certainly don't want to gut a good (or repairable) store >just to slap it on the wall... No, these are all good. But I do find damaged ones occasionaly. I'll save the next one for you. Joe > >Thanks, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" >sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" >zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" > | JC == Jeremy Christian > > From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 28 22:48:00 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: from "Ron Hudson" at Sep 28, 2004 12:08:45 PM Message-ID: <20060212043037.0626873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Ron Hudson once stated: > > Can you create self modifying code in any high level language, the kind of > code where the application program actually changes it's own instructions? Any high level language? Depends upon the language. Something like Haskel or ML, not at all. > I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a function, > that's not really what I mean. It violates ANSI C, and it certainly isn't portable, but yes, it can be done. Maybe. And when you get it working (I didn't, but I'm not going to waste much time on this), make sure you remember how you compiled it, because any changes in compiler options will set you back to square one. -spc (Below is my first attempt ... probably have the wrong location) #include #define UP_OPCODE 0x77 #define DOWN_OPCODE 0x72 void sort(int *array,size_t size) { size_t i; size_t j; int t; for (i = 0 ; i < size ; i++) { for (j = i + 1 ; j < size ; j++) { if (array[i] > array[j]) { t = array[i]; array[i] = array[j]; array[j] = t; } } } } void sort_ascending(int *array,size_t size) { unsigned char *f; f = (unsigned char *)sort; f[0x16] = UP_OPCODE; sort(array,size); } void sort_descending(int *array,size_t size) { unsigned char *f; f = (unsigned char *)sort; f[0x16] = DOWN_OPCODE; sort(array,size); } int main(void) { int data[256]; sort_ascending(data,256); sort_descending(data,256); return(0); } From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 28 22:56:48 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060212043037.0626873029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Feb 11, 2006 11:30:36 PM Message-ID: <20060212043926.2241973029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner once stated: > > > I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a function, > > that's not really what I mean. > > It violates ANSI C, and it certainly isn't portable, but yes, it can be > done. Maybe. And when you get it working (I didn't, but I'm not going to > waste much time on this), make sure you remember how you compiled it, > because any changes in compiler options will set you back to square one. Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. -spc (Another reason why self-modifying code is hard to do in C 8-P From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 28 23:05:28 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060212043926.2241973029@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Feb 11, 6 11:39:25 pm" Message-ID: <200409290405.VAA14828@floodgap.com> > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. I wonder if this is true in Winders. Seriously -- is it? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 28 22:53:33 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:36 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > After a super-early workday, I bailed early and headed over to University of > Michigan property disposition to see what's what. Still available was a > complete S/390 Generation IV for around $1000. This thing is destined for > the scrap yard if no one can, figuratively, pick it up. Considering how S/390s are starting to get decommishioned, $1000 is a little too pricey. They won't get a huge amount for scrap, either. > Also available is a > RS/6000, though I couldn't get into the cabinet to see what processors it > had. An IBM 9-track reel-to-reel cab was next to the RS/6000, but I couldn't > identify it. Could you describe it? I have been looking for references to an IBM 9 track that came after the 3420. Their biggest feature was that each drive had a huge green LED matrix panel mounted above to let you know what the drive was doing from a football field away. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Sep 28 22:53:58 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060212043926.2241973029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20060212043037.0626873029@linus.groomlake.area51> <20060212043926.2241973029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20040929035358.GA17862@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 11:39:25PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. > > -spc (Another reason why self-modifying code is hard to do in C 8-P But there are C compilers for the 68000, 6502, etc., for OSes that do _not_ require an MMU or other enforcement hardware (like AmigaDOS), let alone for standalone programs for embedded environments (we had a C compiler for the 68000 for our COMBOARDs - 100% of the code was our own - no OS). Some variant of your technique would work in any of those environments; the 'restriction' in this case is a UNIX one, not a C one. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 29-Sep-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.2 F (-48.5 C) Windchill -99 F (-72.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 23.1 kts Grid 011 Barometer 683.1 mb (10508. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 28 22:56:17 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Marconi catalog Message-ID: Can anyone use an old Marconi Instruments test equipment catalog? I have an old edition here (NA7) that needs to go away. Inside are the usual picures and descriptions of the gear (much like the big HP catalogs). Of interest to those on this list are the ATE equipments - there are some nice shots and data for their PDP-11 (the original) based test sets. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 28 23:26:41 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <200409290405.VAA14828@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Sep 28, 2004 09:05:28 PM Message-ID: <20060212050920.E645F73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. > > I wonder if this is true in Winders. Seriously -- is it? It may be (a function of the Intel processor), but you can get around this my mapping those pages elsewhere with read/write access (well, in ring 0). -spc (But I'm not terribly interested in the answer for Windows ... ) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 29 00:49:07 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060212050920.E645F73029@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Feb 12, 6 00:09:20 am" Message-ID: <200409290549.WAA12080@floodgap.com> > > > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > > > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > > > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it coredumped. > > I wonder if this is true in Winders. Seriously -- is it? > It may be (a function of the Intel processor), but you can get around this > my mapping those pages elsewhere with read/write access (well, in ring 0). > -spc (But I'm not terribly interested in the answer for Windows ... ) The only reason why I asked was it might be another exploit method. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier --- From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 29 00:37:34 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman Message-ID: <0409290537.AA23058@ivan.Harhan.ORG> spc@conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) wrote: > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. You do know about -N option to ld, right? That would make an OMAGIC executable whose code is not protected. MS From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Sep 29 01:19:14 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <415A0E7A.7030406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <004c01c4a5ec$3e145000$4d4d2c0a@atx> > That machine had an instruction to execute an instruction that was held > in a register! ... Another set of memories from vaious 3rd gen machines ... All three of ICT 1900, IBM 360, Honeywell Level 66 (=6000) have instructions to obey the instruction at which, at the time they were designed, must have seemed a way of getting the benefits of self-modification without the problems. IBM's EX and ICT's OBEY both were simple (indexed) instructions - Honeywell, of course, also did something* too clever to the target instruction. * I forget what ... but then I only wrote two small modules in assembler for our L66 - everything else I did on that machine was either in Fortran or B. Andy From spc at conman.org Wed Sep 29 01:54:33 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <0409290537.AA23058@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Sep 29, 2004 05:37:34 AM Message-ID: <20060212073716.4265273029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael Sokolov once stated: > > spc@conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) wrote: > > > Okay, figured out why my code didn't work, and it's not due to writing to > > the wrong location (although I suspect that still is a problem) but that > > under Unix the code pages are marked read-only so of course it core dumped. > > You do know about -N option to ld, right? That would make an OMAGIC > executable whose code is not protected. No, I did not know about the -N option. Tried that (once I found the correct location) and it worked. Even more surprising was when I upped the optimization level---the compiler (in this case, GCC 2.7.2.3) *inlined* the sort routine in sort_ascending() and sort_descending(), so even if I got the right instruction changed, it wouldn't work because the code that was modified was never called. Not that I would do this, even for throw away stuff, but it's nice to know it's there if needed. -spc (Curious ... ) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 29 02:02:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions..." (Sep 27, 22:17) References: Message-ID: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 27 2004, 22:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > Good news: You could even make an Ethernet/Twinax single jack, if you're > > not running faster than 100Mbps ethernet, as they run 1/2 & 3/6 for their > > pairs -- just use 4/5 for twinax. > > > > Bad news: *Most* pre-built cables don't follow the standard as to where the > > twisted pairs should be - most just go 1/2 - 3/4 - 5/6 - 7/8 - and that's > > bad for both Ethernet & twinax. You'll wanna punch down and/or build your > > own cables if you're going to do this. > > What?!?!? > > I've made the odd 10baseT patch lead, and I was always careful to get 1/2 > as a pair and 3/6 as another pair (I think the other 2 pairs were 4/5 and > 7/8, but it;s been a long time..) Fiddling the wires into the RJ45 was a > pain, but I assumed it was necessary.... > > And you're telling me commercial cables get it wrong. I've hardly ever seen a commercial standard Cat3 / Cat4 / Cat5 /Cat5e cable that was miswired with split pairs. Telephone cables wired to the old USOC standard are different[1], but not usually fitted with RJ45 plugs, and flat cables are obviously not twisted pairs. Tony, I wouldn't have any qualms about buying commercial cables. If you do want to wire your own, the standard order (for TIA568B, which is the most common scheme) is white+orange, orange, white+green, blue, white+blue, green, white+brown, brown. [1] They're not paired as 1+2, 3+4, etc either. The first pair is the centre pins, the second pair is the two pins either side of centre, and so on, working outwards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Sep 29 04:12:34 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: simh simulation speed In-Reply-To: <41589692.9000308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBE3@mail10.congressfinancial.com> <1096321672.5460.53.camel@fiche.wps.com> <41589692.9000308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <415A7C82.1050303@gjcp.net> ben franchuk wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > >> (If someone actually wants a new-design vacuum tube serial drum (or >> switched-capacitor) computer built, and is willing to write checks, let >> me know :-) > > > How about a schematic and or blue prints first. I am sure a lot of people > would find it interesting reading. > Ben. > Funny you should say, but I'm currently trying to understand the workings of the PDP8/S from the mainenance manual. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 05:36:37 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1096454197.7512.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 21:53 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> > >>> Doesn't Perl have something along these lines? I'd be > >>> surprised if not. > >>> > > I am taling about features build into the run-time of the language, not > access to external tools [such as what ships with Unix and many other > environments]. Sorry, I meant built into the language too, not a bolt-on :-) > The difference is that these languagages are to some degree interpreted, > they do not normally compile down to native executable code. However these > types of constructs do perform roughly equivilant functions. Hazy memory, but I thought .net was typically C# in a distributed environment - in other words, Microsoft's rip-off of Java and JINI with the added "benefit" of vendor lock-in :-) I thought C# was *usually* interpreted, just with the option of compilation if needs be (just as Java bytecode can be compiled to native code if desired). Fair call on the compiler included with the OS though. Aside: it's funny how typical developers don't seem to care about application footprint or efficiency these days, yet they often throw their arms up in protest when it comes to mention of interpreted code over native (I don't mean you David, just a general observation) > With the dynamic assembly you can go from source code to native instruction > and even persist [save] the results between runs in many different ways. I've certainly seen that for other langauges - not as you say included as part of the OS though. > Also the code generator is capable of supporting different .Net languages. > This means that a C# program can write and excute Cobol code, or a Visual > Basic program could write Fortran code and execute it. Now that is interesting. A developer's nightmare, but interesting :-) > The general truth is that a > Microsoft environment is the most convient way to make a living developing > software. I hope that MS don't go the same route as Sun did with Java and try to enforce the way that developers work. Keeping it (relatively) simple (and therefore flexible) is the key - as soon as a vendor tries to impose a style of working upon the language it starts going downhill, as there are always going to be scenarios where there are exceptions to the way they see things. seeya, Jules From dmhills at attglobal.net Wed Sep 29 05:51:21 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron Hudson wrote: > >In one of my jobs I worked for the communications product div of Novell, >they were trying to port netware to the AS400, but the simulated machine the >AS400 presents was not effiecient for Novell, they could not get the server >to run well enough, And IBM would not release the actual machine instruction >set so the server could be written at the lower level (AS400 machines all >run a simulator of an imaginary machine.. They do this so that all models of >the AS400 are binary-compatible.) The actual machine instruction set was available for the System/38 (AS/400 predecessor). It was sufficiently baroque that no-one wrote anything for it so they didn't bother publishing it for the AS/400 where, as you say, they wanted to use different processor architectures within the range. That's not to say it was badly designed, it was simply highly optimised for its role as an OO database engine. There's a very interesting book about the AS/400's design process written by the chief architect, Frank Solti: "Inside the AS/400" ISBN 1-882419-66-9 >I think the imaginary machine's instruction set was called "MI" for Machine >Interface??? Yep. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From dmhills at attglobal.net Wed Sep 29 06:14:11 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <415843E8.A525230F@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: jim stephens wrote: >Also, the os's for old AS/400's would run for 30 or 60 days, then bomb, and >you could reload them indefinitely. sort of the same as XP, but less painful. There was no "time bomb" in the code, if that's what you meant. I think you're remembering virtual address space exhaustion. Remember when I said that everything (programs and data) were conceptually in main memory at all times? Well, if you deleted or changed an object, its address space was never re-used - a new address was assigned. (This was part of the security architecture.) Eventually, you ran out of addresses in one region or another (memory was somewhat partitioned, so for example you couldn't hard crash the machine by trying to use up all addresses in the OS region). You had to re-IPL occasionally so that "garbage collection" could occur. >Don, do you have any referenced on this? I know some years ago Pick Systems >was porting to the AS/400, but that was bootlegged, and eventually given up. As someone else has pointed out, Novel also tried. As far as I know, no-one actually got to market. I think Pick would have been a good port - it was essentially a database OS, and the AS/400 was essentially a database engine. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 29 08:11:06 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET Message-ID: <6052050.1096463466845.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> actually, .NET is a platform where individual compilers (C#, J#, VB, Fortran, etc) generate an abstract code that is compiled and run in the .NET runtime. C# can not run and execute Cobol for example, but you can freely intermix classes that each could be written in any language. Any class no matter what language it is written in can be called by a class or call another class. A class may not be compiled until runtime (JIT - just in time), but once it is compiled then it is available immediately. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson Hazy memory, but I thought .net was typically C# in a distributed environment - in other words, Microsoft's rip-off of Java and JINI with the added "benefit" of vendor lock-in :-) I thought C# was *usually* interpreted, just with the option of compilation if needs be (just as Java bytecode can be compiled to native code if desired). Fair call on the compiler included with the OS though. > Also the code generator is capable of supporting different .Net languages. > This means that a C# program can write and excute Cobol code, or a Visual > Basic program could write Fortran code and execute it. Now that is interesting. A developer's nightmare, but interesting :-) seeya, Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 29 08:17:58 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology References: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <10409290058.ZM10812@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <16730.46598.640000.323459@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: Pete> As for confusing addition and the logical OR function with Pete> binary numbers, you don't normally perform logic on binary Pete> numbers, only on bits representing truth values. Describing Pete> "1011 OR 0101" as part of a logic equation is sloppy; it's Pete> actually four put together. >From a math point of view, justifying the use of add and multiply symbols, this is viewed as arithmetic modulo 2. You'll note that addition mod 2 is exactly XOR (not inclusive OR) and multiplication is exactly AND -- which is why that notation came across. Looking at things this way is helpful if you want to understand CRC, for example. Or so I've heard -- number theory is unfortunately mostly over my head. Same goes for coding in general (ECC and such) or various forms of encryption. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 08:21:28 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation In-Reply-To: <1096454197.7512.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096454197.7512.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929081948.10fabc18@pc> At 05:36 AM 9/29/2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >Aside: it's funny how typical developers don't seem to care about >application footprint or efficiency these days, yet they often throw >their arms up in protest when it comes to mention of interpreted code >over native (I don't mean you David, just a general observation) Exploit and virus writers are very sensitive to code size! :-) You can't inject just anything into some of these holes, you need tiny routines that can jumpstart larger routines, again and again, sometimes with very odd constraints on the values of the bytes of the code and data! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 08:10:55 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929080952.10eaa8d0@pc> At 05:07 PM 9/28/2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is the first >run-time environment [not development environment] in which a compiler, >linker and all of the associated capabilities are included. If you have a >windows machine [XP, 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of >these tools are already resident on your machines! I guess that would explain why it's a 20 or 30 meg download, once you've got the main system and the 11 meg patches. And they're pushing it out as fast as they can - it's part of WinXP SP2, no? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 08:09:21 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928184315.04e1ca58@mail.30below.com> References: <200409282112.OAA09049@clulw009.amd.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040928184315.04e1ca58@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929080752.112a4fb8@pc> At 05:57 PM 9/28/2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: >However, I'd say that most early computers came with one built-in language standard so you could actually *do* something with the computer... nowadays that's no longer true.[1] >[1] and it sucks, too! Like it would've been hard to include a basic BASIC on the palm. Instead, it does nothing but keep notes & numbers... There are freeware and cheapware BASICs for the Palm, of course. This is how I've lured my 9-year-old into programming on an old IIIc. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 08:23:03 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> At 02:02 AM 9/29/2004, you wrote: >I've hardly ever seen a commercial standard Cat3 / Cat4 / Cat5 /Cat5e >cable that was miswired with split pairs. Telephone cables wired to >the old USOC standard are different[1], but not usually fitted with >RJ45 plugs, and flat cables are obviously not twisted pairs. I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps Sellam knows examples. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 08:22:03 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929081121.10fb1e18@pc> At 04:46 PM 9/28/2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Ron> I know in C it is possible to pass an address of a function to a > Ron> function, that's not really what I mean. > >I think the answer is "usually not". C is an exception, as you >noted. There were/are C interpreters, too - Gimpel C-terp comes to mind, which I used under DOS way back in 1895 - oh wait - 1985 or so. I can't remember if it had such a self-modifying extension. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 29 08:27:10 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928163246.04e6c470@mail.30below.com> <415A0E7A.7030406@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <16730.47150.145000.684790@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jim" == Jim Battle writes: Jim> I month or so ago I prattled on about what I recalled about the Jim> BTI Computer Systems architecture, where I worked for a year Jim> back in 85/86. Jim> That machine had an instruction to execute an instruction that Jim> was held in a register! Kind of like the perl exec() function, Jim> for one instruction. I imagine it could have been useful for Jim> single stepping and other debugging operations. So did the PDP-10, back in the 1970s (and, probably, the PDP-6 -- mid 1960s.) Somewhat useful for stepping, though a "single step" processor flag (as in the PDP11) is better because it covers branches too. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 29 08:48:48 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: <10409290058.ZM10812@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929093821.03b56220@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >On Sep 28 2004, 15:52, Steve Thatcher wrote: >Do you expect to pick up a book on some >strange programming language or some new science and understand the >syntax without some explanation? If you do, this is the language for you: http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/ ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From emu at ecubics.com Wed Sep 29 09:21:32 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET In-Reply-To: <6052050.1096463466845.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <6052050.1096463466845.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <415AC4EC.7090406@ecubics.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > actually, .NET is a platform where individual compilers (C#, J#, VB, Fortran, etc) generate an abstract code that is compiled and run in the .NET runtime. C# can not run and execute Cobol for example, but you can freely intermix classes that each could be written in any language. Any class no matter what language it is written in can be called by a class or call another class. > > A class may not be compiled until runtime (JIT - just in time), but once it is compiled then it is available immediately. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher Sounds a hell like p-code, few years later ;-) From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 09:24:31 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47A77767-1223-11D9-83DC-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Sep 29, 2004, at 3:51 AM, Don Hills wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: >> >> In one of my jobs I worked for the communications product div of >> Novell, >> they were trying to port netware to the AS400, but the simulated >> machine the >> AS400 presents was not effiecient for Novell, they could not get the >> server >> to run well enough, And IBM would not release the actual machine >> instruction >> set so the server could be written at the lower level (AS400 machines >> all >> run a simulator of an imaginary machine.. They do this so that all >> models of >> the AS400 are binary-compatible.) > > The actual machine instruction set was available for the System/38 > (AS/400 > predecessor). It was sufficiently baroque that no-one wrote anything > for it > so they didn't bother publishing it for the AS/400 where, as you say, > they > wanted to use different processor architectures within the range. > That's not > to say it was badly designed, it was simply highly optimised for its > role as > an OO database engine. There's a very interesting book about the > AS/400's > design process written by the chief architect, Frank Solti: "Inside the > AS/400" ISBN 1-882419-66-9 My impression was that the different models of AS400 could have different processors (and native instruction sets) so to have upward/downward compatibility IBM had them all run an emulator of a machine that spoke "MI". They didn't want people writing for the native processor because the program would be bound to a single model. (I suppose there would also be some security issues, if you can get your own program running at the same level as MI) > >> I think the imaginary machine's instruction set was called "MI" for >> Machine >> Interface??? > > Yep. > > -- > Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand > It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics > are governed by people who are not as smart. > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 09:29:21 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> References: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2004, at 6:23 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 9/29/2004, you wrote: >> I've hardly ever seen a commercial standard Cat3 / Cat4 / Cat5 /Cat5e >> cable that was miswired with split pairs. Telephone cables wired to >> the old USOC standard are different[1], but not usually fitted with >> RJ45 plugs, and flat cables are obviously not twisted pairs. > > I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > Sellam knows examples. > > - John > Oh, at that same job (novell) , I moved the network to new quarters, Our jacks were wired with all 8 wires and I had "Y" jumpers that would let me connect in the wire-closet one jack to two hubs, then in the office I could use another Y cable to hook up two machines. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 09:35:35 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:53 PM Subject: Re: University of Michigan Property Depot report > > Could you describe it? I'll go back next week and take a picture, if it's still there. > > I have been looking for references to an IBM 9 track that came after the > 3420. Their biggest feature was that each drive had a huge green LED > matrix panel mounted above to let you know what the drive was doing from a > football field away. They had a bunch of those at the property depot a few months ago, along with an ancient RS/6000 and a big DASD array. I'm considering as my next car a Chevy Avalanche so I can start picking this stuff up. I'll just need subsidies for gas :) > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 29 02:02:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200409290244.TAA09317@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I was watching the auction of the Poly88 on ebay. I was astounded that > the orange toaster went for 1358USD. I do hope that the person that is > buying it realizes that the boards inside are not the orginal > Polymorphic boards. Still, it is a nice looking box but that is a little > high priced for a power supply and motherboard. You're telling me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 29 10:00:46 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET Message-ID: <31368509.1096470051582.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> p-code never compiled down to native calls... .NET does -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler Sounds a hell like p-code, few years later ;-) From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 29 02:10:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > [1] They're not paired as 1+2, 3+4, etc either. The first pair is the > centre pins, the second pair is the two pins either side of centre, and > so on, working outwards. The third and fourth pairs would not be "so on". They'd be the pairs on either side of the center, since Orange+White/Orange and Brown+White/Brown are not split. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 29 02:16:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 9/29/2004, you wrote: > >I've hardly ever seen a commercial standard Cat3 / Cat4 / Cat5 /Cat5e > >cable that was miswired with split pairs. Telephone cables wired to > >the old USOC standard are different[1], but not usually fitted with > >RJ45 plugs, and flat cables are obviously not twisted pairs. > > I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > Sellam knows examples. There were/are many uses for a straight-through 8-conductor cable with RJ-45 connectors on each end. Lots of datacom equipment of old, old telephone systems that used all 4 pairs, etc. Of course, these cables would be used for the last few feet...the actual cable runs would have twisted pairs. Probably the biggest use for straight-through 8-conductor ribbon cable is for serial communications. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Sep 29 10:38:56 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> References: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929163554.055ddbf8@pop.freeserve.net> At 14:23 29/09/2004, John Foust wrote: >I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable >was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps >Sellam knows examples. I've encountered flat 8 core cable, terminated with RJ45's, used as patch leads in a Serial environment. They were used with Baydek SMUX serial boards, also seen them used with some Specialix terminal servers, both had RJ45 sockets for the serial ports. Of course, when one of my colleagues tried to use them for Ethernet we had terrible problems. They would just about work (for the short lengths in a patch cabinet) at 10Mbps, but were total no-no at 100Mbps. Rob From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 10:46:29 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET In-Reply-To: <31368509.1096470051582.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <31368509.1096470051582.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <415AD8D5.9020604@pacbell.net> Steve Thatcher wrote: > p-code never compiled down to native calls... .NET does That sounded like an assertion waiting to be disproven. 15 seconds with google produced this link: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ Heath Z-80 UCSD p-System, six 5 1/4" disks: "SYSTEM 1," "SYSTEM 2," "ZINT," "PASCAL," "UTILS," "Native code generator NZ84BP". That was contemporaneous. Something more recent: http://www.pascal-central.com/pcode.html Spend a few more minute and find more links. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 29 10:48:28 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409291048.28700.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 29 September 2004 09:35, Jason McBrien wrote: > They had a bunch of those at the property depot a few months ago, > along with an ancient RS/6000 and a big DASD array. I'm considering > as my next car a Chevy Avalanche so I can start picking this stuff > up. I'll just need subsidies for gas :) Hmm. I'd like to come up with a DASD for my S/390 at some point, so I might do something more interesting with it than heat my garage... Anyways, I don't think you'd want to try to haul any IBM DASD inside an SUV, unless you wanted to get new shocks. A trailer, however, would probably work if rated for enough weight. The number that IBM gives as the minimum weight for an S/390 cabinet of the type I have (9672) is 1300LBS for a single 6ft high 24" rack, which explains the difficulty I had moving it across the carpeting in my last apartment. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 29 10:55:46 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology References: <200409290217.TAA09306@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <009f01c4a63c$c8f03310$660fa8c0@Sol> > Hi > Most times, a plus in a circle is to indicate an exclusive-or. > Dwight Oops! That's right. And just to add more wonder, another book I was looking at uses a "V" looking symbol and an inverted "V". These are also defined as "∨" and "∧" in HTML 4.0, although my browser doesn't seem to display them. Does their adoption as standard entities mean these are "standard" international symbols? --Patrick From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Wed Sep 29 11:04:48 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... References: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> <6.1.2.0.0.20040929163554.055ddbf8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <00ac01c4a63e$0be24d60$660fa8c0@Sol> > >I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > >was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > >Sellam knows examples. > > > I've encountered flat 8 core cable, terminated with RJ45's, used as patch > leads in a Serial environment. They were used with Baydek SMUX serial > boards, also seen them used with some Specialix terminal servers, both had > RJ45 sockets for the serial ports. And also the included console cable on much Cisco gear for years. Got boxes of 'em. I've always gotten RJ45's on both ends, until recently a PIX firewall showed up with RJ45 on one end, molded connector on the other. I tossed it and used an old-style cable (one size fits all). --Patrick From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 29 11:20:04 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Looking for DW08-B drawings or info Message-ID: <012d01c4a640$2eab1be0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> I recently acquired a DW08-B backplane. I am interested in reconditioning it, but I can't find drawings for it online. (I found the drawings for the DW08-A, thanks.) Does anyone have drawings for this lying around? (In a pinch, even a module locator chart would help, because then I could trace the wiring :-).) Thanks, Vince From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 29 03:37:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929163554.055ddbf8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 14:23 29/09/2004, John Foust wrote: > > > >I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > >was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > >Sellam knows examples. > > > I've encountered flat 8 core cable, terminated with RJ45's, used as patch > leads in a Serial environment. They were used with Baydek SMUX serial > boards, also seen them used with some Specialix terminal servers, both had > RJ45 sockets for the serial ports. > > Of course, when one of my colleagues tried to use them for Ethernet we had > terrible problems. They would just about work (for the short lengths in a > patch cabinet) at 10Mbps, but were total no-no at 100Mbps. You can use just about anything for short runs. Even 100-base-T might work with 4-strands of random wire at some minimal distance. But if you expect anything to run and run reliably, especially at a distance, use properly rated cable :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From MGemeny at pgcps.org Wed Sep 29 11:44:50 2004 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report Message-ID: Jason McBrien wrote: >Also, a full-length ISA card with a bunch >of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector >was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an >old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets, >and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next >to the connector. Any ideas? That sounds like an old NCR WaveLan card. The original was before the 802.11 standards. It operated in the 900MHz ISM band and was basicaly 2 Megabit wireless network card, compatable only with others like it. NCR sold the product line to Lucent at about the time the standards were adopted, as I recall. Hope this helps, Mike Gemeny From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 29 11:48:30 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409291148.30717.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 29 September 2004 03:37, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > At 14:23 29/09/2004, John Foust wrote: > > >I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > > >was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > > >Sellam knows examples. > > > > I've encountered flat 8 core cable, terminated with RJ45's, used as > > patch leads in a Serial environment. They were used with Baydek > > SMUX serial boards, also seen them used with some Specialix > > terminal servers, both had RJ45 sockets for the serial ports. > > > > Of course, when one of my colleagues tried to use them for Ethernet > > we had terrible problems. They would just about work (for the > > short lengths in a patch cabinet) at 10Mbps, but were total no-no > > at 100Mbps. > > You can use just about anything for short runs. Even 100-base-T > might work with 4-strands of random wire at some minimal distance. > But if you expect anything to run and run reliably, especially at a > distance, use properly rated cable :) Indeed, I have used 10ft piece of round phone cable (not UTP) with RJ45s to run 100BaseT, and gotten a full 12MB/sec or so out of it. However, "results may not be typical". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 29 11:54:36 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Re: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology" (Sep 29, 9:48) References: <26066339.1096401147938.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20040929093821.03b56220@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10409291754.ZM11498@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 29 2004, 9:48, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: > >On Sep 28 2004, 15:52, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >Do you expect to pick up a book on some > >strange programming language or some new science and understand the > >syntax without some explanation? > > If you do, this is the language for you: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/ It's actually quite a popular and well-known language amongst the systems programmers at York! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Wed Sep 29 12:11:04 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: 7-track tape question Message-ID: <004301c4a647$4e26a1e0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Hi everybody. This is something a computer geezer like me should know. But I don't. I've read some things that seem to imply that *some* of the oldest drive/formatters did NOT write a longitudinal parity frame at the end of a block. (They did have horizontal parity, of course.) If it's true then a drive reading such tapes would not have an easy way of telling whether frames had been dropped during a read. Does this ring true to anybody out there? Any observations welcome. best regards, Chris Muller Muller Media Conversions 32 Broadway, suite 1214 New York, NY 10004 http://www.mullermedia.com 212-344-0474 or 800-OLD2NEW From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 29 12:07:12 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions..." (Sep 29, 8:23) References: <10409290802.ZM11124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040929074624.1120ecc0@pc> Message-ID: <10409291807.ZM11537@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 29 2004, 8:23, John Foust wrote: > At 02:02 AM 9/29/2004, you wrote: > >I've hardly ever seen a commercial standard Cat3 / Cat4 / Cat5 /Cat5e > >cable that was miswired with split pairs. Telephone cables wired to > >the old USOC standard are different[1], but not usually fitted with > >RJ45 plugs, and flat cables are obviously not twisted pairs. > > I agree, and I suspect any straight-through RJ-45 cable > was for a telephone system, not networking. Perhaps > Sellam knows examples. ISDN S-bus sometimes uses flat cables for the last piece of flex between wall and device (you shouldn't, because 1+2 and 7+8 are sometimes used for phantom power, but many devices only use Tx and Rx which are 4+5 and 3+6). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 29 12:08:22 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions..." (Sep 29, 0:10) References: Message-ID: <10409291808.ZM11545@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 29 2004, 0:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > [1] They're not paired as 1+2, 3+4, etc either. The first pair is the > > centre pins, the second pair is the two pins either side of centre, and > > so on, working outwards. > > The third and fourth pairs would not be "so on". They'd be the pairs on > either side of the center, since Orange+White/Orange and Brown+White/Brown > are not split. Er, no, in a USOC-wired RJ45 pair 1 is pins 4+5, pair 2 is pins 3+6, pair 3 is pins 2+7, pair 4 is pins 1+8. You're thinking of TIA 568, where pair 1 is 4+5 (blue), pair 2 is 3+6 (green), pair 3 is 1+2 (orange) abnd pair 4 is 7+8 (brown), as I wrote above the bit you quoted. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 29 12:36:47 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET Message-ID: <19732533.1096479407857.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> The comment I made was based on another person's view that p-code was intrepreted and so was .NET - apples and apples sort of thing... I don't recall any Microsoft product that created p-code which could be executed without compiling and then you could compile the p-code and execute that too. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Battle Sent: Sep 29, 2004 8:46 AM To: General Discussion@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null@null Subject: Re: Code Generation .NET Steve Thatcher wrote: > p-code never compiled down to native calls... .NET does That sounded like an assertion waiting to be disproven. 15 seconds with google produced this link: http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ Heath Z-80 UCSD p-System, six 5 1/4" disks: "SYSTEM 1," "SYSTEM 2," "ZINT," "PASCAL," "UTILS," "Native code generator NZ84BP". That was contemporaneous. Something more recent: http://www.pascal-central.com/pcode.html Spend a few more minute and find more links. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 29 12:51:58 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: 7-track tape question References: <004301c4a647$4e26a1e0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <16730.63038.33603.148114@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Muller writes: Chris> Hi everybody. This is something a computer geezer like me Chris> should know. But I don't. Chris> I've read some things that seem to imply that *some* of the Chris> oldest drive/formatters did NOT write a longitudinal parity Chris> frame at the end of a block. (They did have horizontal parity, Chris> of course.) Chris> If it's true then a drive reading such tapes would not have an Chris> easy way of telling whether frames had been dropped during a Chris> read. Does this ring true to anybody out there? Any Chris> observations welcome. It sounded odd to me, so I did some reading. The IBM 650 (1955) says that it has even longitudinal parity. On the other hand, the Univac Model 1 (1950 or thereabouts) says that it has even horizontal parity but not longitudinal parity. But that's really rather prehistoric and doesn't use regular 1/2 inch mylar tape. Given that even the 650 has it (as do several CDC machines I checked) I'm somewhat doubtful about the rumor. paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 29 13:02:03 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... Message-ID: <0409291802.AA23986@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Pete Turnbull wrote: > You're thinking of TIA 568, > where pair 1 is 4+5 (blue), pair 2 is 3+6 (green), pair 3 is 1+2 > (orange) abnd pair 4 is 7+8 (brown) No, pair 2 is orange and pair 3 is green (always), but TIA 568A and 568B differ on whether orange pair 2 should go on 3+6 leaving 1+2 for green pair 3 (568A) or vice-versa (568B). Everyone uses 568B. MS From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 29 05:15:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: <10409291808.ZM11545@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 29 2004, 0:10, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > > [1] They're not paired as 1+2, 3+4, etc either. The first pair is > the > > > centre pins, the second pair is the two pins either side of centre, > and > > > so on, working outwards. > > > > The third and fourth pairs would not be "so on". They'd be the pairs > on > > either side of the center, since Orange+White/Orange and > Brown+White/Brown > > are not split. > > Er, no, in a USOC-wired RJ45 pair 1 is pins 4+5, pair 2 is pins 3+6, > pair 3 is pins 2+7, pair 4 is pins 1+8. You're thinking of TIA 568, > where pair 1 is 4+5 (blue), pair 2 is 3+6 (green), pair 3 is 1+2 > (orange) abnd pair 4 is 7+8 (brown), as I wrote above the bit you > quoted. Oops, sorry. I stand corrected! :/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 13:23:43 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Code Generation .NET In-Reply-To: <415AD8D5.9020604@pacbell.net> References: <31368509.1096470051582.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <415AD8D5.9020604@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929132239.1143a1a0@pc> At 10:46 AM 9/29/2004, you wrote: >Steve Thatcher wrote: >>p-code never compiled down to native calls... .NET does > >That sounded like an assertion waiting to be disproven. 15 seconds with google produced this link: > >http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ > >Heath Z-80 UCSD p-System, six 5 1/4" disks: "SYSTEM 1," "SYSTEM 2," "ZINT," "PASCAL," "UTILS," "Native code generator NZ84BP". Wow, didn't even remember I had that. :-) >That was contemporaneous. Something more recent: >http://www.pascal-central.com/pcode.html >Spend a few more minute and find more links. We were also talking about Cabot's tools back on 9/16 here. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 29 13:30:04 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040929163554.055ddbf8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929131821.1143a058@pc> At 03:37 AM 9/29/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >You can use just about anything for short runs. Even 100-base-T might >work with 4-strands of random wire at some minimal distance. But if you >expect anything to run and run reliably, especially at a distance, use >properly rated cable :) These days, though, it's getting harder: inexpensive consumer networking gear is all over the map in terms of what sort of signal degradation it can handle. I've seen some equipment that can't pick up a signal on a 100-foot run of suitably rated and crimped cable. I don't have a TDR tester, but a simple $50 tester shows valid wiring. - John From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Sep 29 13:37:57 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:37 2005 Subject: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200409290244.TAA09317@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409290244.TAA09317@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <50806.127.0.0.1.1096483077.squirrel@mail.vintage-computer.com> > Hi > I was watching the auction of the Poly88 on ebay. > I was astounded that the orange toaster went for > 1358USD. I do hope that the person that is buying > it realizes that the boards inside are not the orginal > Polymorphic boards. Still, it is a nice looking > box but that is a little high priced for a power supply > and motherboard. > Dwight > I had that machine on my watch list and it was sniped by some over-eager beavers. . . Hell, I paid only a little more than that for my Kenbak-1! eBay is crazy I tell ya. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Sep 29 13:56:16 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <1096410165.5608.157.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096410165.5608.157.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200409291356.16644.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Tuesday 28 September 2004 17:22, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Hmm, interesting point. PHP's the example which immediately springs to > mind - I believe it has the equivalent of eval to execute dynamically > generated code (and these days is available in standalone flavours). Not > sure if it beat .net to availability though. > > Doesn't Perl have something along these lines? I'd be surprised if not. Yes, it does. So does tcl. And tcl has been around for quite some time...since the early 80s, as I recall. > > Unix shell scripts qualify too I suppose. > > And Java comes close, but with the added security of the compiler being > seperate. > > (And with the exception of Unix shell scripts, they'll all work on any > modern platform, not just one particular line) > > cheers, > > Jules -- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 13:54:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: OT-ish: ImageMagick & PDF Message-ID: <1096484051.7495.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone here use ImageMagick to produce their PDF files of old documentation? I've got some scanned documentation here in TIFF format which I need to munge into a PDF file using 'convert'. Question is, will that result in loss of quality, or will the data for each frame be stored in the resulting PDF file using exactly the same colour depth and size of each input image? (I don't care if it uses a different compression, providing it's non-lossy) Last thing I want to do is store important data in a PDF file, only to find that it drops the quality - and so at a future time I can't get data of the input quality back out again! cheers Jules From deano at rattie.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 14:12:41 2004 From: deano at rattie.demon.co.uk (Deano Calver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <415B0929.2030608@rattie.demon.co.uk> Modern graphics drivers have a complete compiler, linker and pre-processor built-in (GLSL). Also lots of D3D games link with D3DX which has the complete HLSL language system. GLSL ships with every Windows graphics driver for NVIDIA, ATI and 3D Labs and soon will ship with most Linux, Freebsd systems (DRI/MESAGL) and Apple (actually may be shipping already) systems. Of course people aren't used to the idea that there graphics chips have significantly more programmable floating point power than there CPU. So only games programmers get to use all that wasted power (its in the order of 50-100 GFLOPS currently, should pass a TFLOP in 5 years). David V. Corbin wrote: > >As many of you have pointed out there have been tools for generating >programs from within programs for a long time. There have also been many >programming environments which did not need a complete compiler. > >To the best of my knowledge, the Microsoft .NET platform is the first >run-time environment [not development environment] in which a compiler, >linker and all of the associated capabilities are included. If you have a >windows machine [XP, 2K] and have applied the windowsupdates, then all of >these tools are already resident on your machines! > > > > From emu at ecubics.com Wed Sep 29 14:23:12 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: GLSL, was: Re: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <415B0929.2030608@rattie.demon.co.uk> References: <415B0929.2030608@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <415B0BA0.7050805@ecubics.com> Deano Calver wrote: > Of course people aren't used to the idea that there graphics chips have > significantly more programmable floating point power than there CPU. So > only games programmers get to use all that wasted power (its in the > order of 50-100 GFLOPS currently, should pass a TFLOP in 5 years). Not only game programmers. Check : http://www.gpgpu.org/ for far more applications ... From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Sep 29 14:55:19 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: SB180 problems Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBFA@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Hello, all: Does anyone on the list have a source listing (either original or reconstructed) to the Circuit Cellar SB-180 monitor ROM? I did something stupid to it a while back and I think I blew something on the board. Now, when it boots up, instead of the banner I get what appears to be a diagnostic code in binary. The documentation package I have neither has a listing of the codes nor the ROM listing itself, and efforts to contact the original author to have failed. Thanks in advance. Rich From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Sep 29 15:31:13 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: SB180 problems In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEBFA@mail10.congressfi nancial.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040929152947.0253c738@mail.ubanproductions.com> My SB-180 hasn't seen power in about 18 years. I could read the EPROM for you if you need a copy. I don't think that I have a ROM listing. This guy may have it: http://scott.squidliver.net/sb180/sb180-software.html --tom At 03:55 PM 9/29/2004 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: >Hello, all: > > Does anyone on the list have a source listing (either original or >reconstructed) to the Circuit Cellar SB-180 monitor ROM? I did something >stupid to it a while back and I think I blew something on the board. Now, >when it boots up, instead of the banner I get what appears to be a >diagnostic code in binary. The documentation package I have neither has a >listing of the codes nor the ROM listing itself, and efforts to contact the >original author to have failed. > > Thanks in advance. > >Rich From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 29 16:18:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: SB180 problems Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040929171827.009f0320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Major bummer! I don;t have a source listing but I do have a couple of working SB-180s. I can dump the EPROMs for you if need be. Joe At 03:55 PM 9/29/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Does anyone on the list have a source listing (either original or >reconstructed) to the Circuit Cellar SB-180 monitor ROM? I did something >stupid to it a while back and I think I blew something on the board. Now, >when it boots up, instead of the banner I get what appears to be a >diagnostic code in binary. The documentation package I have neither has a >listing of the codes nor the ROM listing itself, and efforts to contact the >original author to have failed. > > Thanks in advance. > >Rich > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 29 17:02:12 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) "Re: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions..." (Sep 29, 18:02) References: <0409291802.AA23986@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <10409292302.ZM11798@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 29 2004, 18:02, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > You're thinking of TIA 568, > > where pair 1 is 4+5 (blue), pair 2 is 3+6 (green), pair 3 is 1+2 > > (orange) abnd pair 4 is 7+8 (brown) > > No, pair 2 is orange and pair 3 is green (always), but TIA 568A and > 568B differ on whether orange pair 2 should go on 3+6 leaving 1+2 > for green pair 3 (568A) or vice-versa (568B). Everyone uses 568B. Oops, yes, you're correct. Orange *is* always pair 2. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 29 17:47:57 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: OT-ish: ImageMagick & PDF In-Reply-To: <1096484051.7495.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <006c01c4a676$5dadf5d0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Does anyone here use ImageMagick to produce their PDF files of old > documentation? I've got some scanned documentation here in TIFF format > which I need to munge into a PDF file using 'convert'. > > Question is, will that result in loss of quality, or will the data for > each frame be stored in the resulting PDF file using exactly the same > colour depth and size of each input image? (I don't care if it uses a > different compression, providing it's non-lossy) I thought that TIFF-within-PDF meant that PDF was essentially a wrapper around the TIFFs, but I could be wrong. A quick (or maybe, slow!) way to find out would be to encode as desired, and then perform the reverse operation and see if what you get back is identical to what went in. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 29 17:51:21 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a@dunfield.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: <262870-220049329225121872@M2W043.mail2web.com> Hi Guys, I know this is a OT, but I could really use some help, and I figure this group is the most likely to be using a setup similar to mine... My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be completely incompatible with my client - basically the POP server cannot not be determined from the POP account name anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" the server from the account name, it cannot connect. Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a incoming mail server separate from the POP account? Until I find something, I can only access this list (and all other email) via a web based reader (very slow on dial-up and inpossible to do a decent reply). Please help! Regards, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From aek at spies.com Wed Sep 29 17:56:10 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: OT-ish: ImageMagick & PDF Message-ID: <20040929225610.81CAE3C44@spies.com> I thought that TIFF-within-PDF meant that PDF was essentially a wrapper around the TIFFs, but I could be wrong. -- You are correct. This is exactly how Eric Smith's tumble program behaves. It is just a wrapper for jpgs and tiffs. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 29 17:58:54 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: <0409292258.AA24709@ivan.Harhan.ORG> dave04a@dunfield.com wrote: > Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either > DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a > incoming mail server separate from the POP account? CWRU-PC/IP for DOS should do it. I have it on my old DOS machine, let me put it up on my FTP site and I'll post the path. MS From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 29 18:06:44 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) In-Reply-To: <262870-220049329225121872@M2W043.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929190325.04dc57e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that dave04a@dunfield.com may have mentioned these words: >Hi Guys, > >I know this is a OT, but I could really use some help, and I figure >this group is the most likely to be using a setup similar to mine... > >My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be completely incompatible >with my client - basically the POP server cannot not be determined from >the POP account name anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" >the server from the account name, it cannot connect. > >Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either >DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a >incoming mail server separate from the POP account? This one should do it: http://www.eudora.com/email/archive/pro_email3/ If not, try here: http://www.pmail.com/overviews/ovw_winpmail.htm (you'll have to search thru all the 32-bit shiznit to get to the 16-bit schtuff -- scroll down near the bottom...) They still have a DOS version, as well. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Sep 29 18:10:03 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) In-Reply-To: <262870-220049329225121872@M2W043.mail2web.com> References: <262870-220049329225121872@M2W043.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <415B40CB.8050103@gjcp.net> dave04a@dunfield.com wrote: > My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be completely incompatible > with my client - basically the POP server cannot not be determined from > the POP account name anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" > the server from the account name, it cannot connect. Not quite sure what you mean. Do you know the name of the POP server? Oh, or do you mean that you feed it (for instance) "gordon@gjcp.net" and it parses it into "gordon" and "gjcp.net" for the username and hostname? > Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either > DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a > incoming mail server separate from the POP account? Have you considered sticking one of the free Unixes onto a machine? You can fit NetBSD into around 300-400M of disk space. Once you go down that route, your options are limitless... > Until I find something, I can only access this list (and all other email) > via a web based reader (very slow on dial-up and inpossible to do a decent > reply). Ewww, webmail. Ewww, dialup. Gordon. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 29 17:50:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Relay computers - OR functionality - symbology In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 28, 4 09:41:36 am Message-ID: > Having gotten the explanation as to why those operations were chosen, it > does make sense and is somewhat elegant (I'll reluctantly concede), but > it's still stupid as far as I'm concerned. Why didn't they use * or X > for AND then? They did!. Or rather you normally use '.', which is also a conventional sign for multiplication (as it X.Y). IIRC it should actually be a dot halfway up the letter, not on the baseline, but that's not on my keyboard -tony From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Sep 29 18:43:42 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: <0409292343.AA24788@ivan.Harhan.ORG> CWRU-PC/IP for DOS can be downloaded via anonymous FTP from ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG in the directory /pub/micro/msdos/net. MS From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 29 18:58:32 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Completely, entirely, utterly off-topic... Message-ID: <20040929235832.84589.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> As warned in the subject line, this couldn't be more off-topic if I tried! Having said that... I've got an extra ticket for Friday's "Vote for Change" concert down in Philadelphia. I'm looking for the face value ($75) -- the concert features Springsteen, REM, and John Fogarty. Please do NOT reply with a political message or to say you'd love to go but can't. And, please do not reply if MAYBE you can go but want to let me know Friday afternoon, or if you want to show up late (it starts at 7) or leave early or whatever -- I'm not about to get stuck with this ticket (and also don't want it to go to some bandwagon lame-ass fan whose favorite Springsteen song is "Secret Garden".) Okay, the diatribe is now complete. If you're vaguely in my area (north Jersey) and want to go, please reply OFF-LIST. Now returning to the regularly scheduled discussion of vintage computers... - Evan ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 19:07:23 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Altos 586 computer - Get it out of my garage! Message-ID: <20040930000723.52098.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> A "guy" gave me an Altos 586 computer - no terminals. I don't think I want it, do you? It is a multi-user Xenix box(?) with an internal 10Meg(?) hard drive. It powers-up and spins-up, but I didn't hook-up a terminal to see if words come out. It is very heavy at 35 pounds. Currently near Santa Ana, CA. Steve. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From pbmain at wideopenwest.com Wed Sep 29 19:12:36 2004 From: pbmain at wideopenwest.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? Message-ID: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Looking for about 10 5.25" blank Apple II or Atari 800 compatible diskettes...just need something to play around with... Pete pbmain@wideopenwest.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 19:20:09 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Box of fan-fold computer paper - from CBM 1983 - It's yours. Message-ID: <20040930002009.7630.qmail@web40909.mail.yahoo.com> People, I have a 30 pound box which contains three boxes of: " 9-1/2 X 11 stock smooth edge, 15 lb bond, 3000 count" fan-fold paper from 1983. Each of the three smaller boxes weigh 7 pounds, for 20 pounds total weight. It is the original cardboard shipping box, shipped from CBM in PA, on 10/83 - cool. Currently near Santa Ana, CA - it's yours if you want it. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Sep 29 19:24:54 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: ASR-33 repair parts In-Reply-To: <200409171137.i8HBbn607842@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200409171137.i8HBbn607842@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <415B5256.1050400@nktelco.net> David Gesswein wrote: >>The pad on the print hammer has disintegrated and the underlying metal >>has been pounding on the print cylinder. This has caused some of the >>letters images to be deformed so that only the top half of the letter >>prints. A new print cylinder would be virtually impossible to fabricate, >>so I need to find a new or used one. >> >> > >With the new available it may not be worth the trouble but as long as the >damage isn't too deep you can get it to print acceptably by filing the >letters flat again, try printing and file again on the part of the letter >that prints darkest until you get reasonably even printing. > > I had not thought of that. I can get a new print cylinder for $25 as somebody keeps reminding us all, but filing would be easy and simple and the cylinder is junk anyway. I can't make it much worse. From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 19:25:01 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: osborne 1 - tan edition - 240VAC computer - condition unknown - it's yours. Message-ID: <20040930002501.41934.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> "Someone" gave me an Osborne 1 (tan version) computer. It's very nice and in good condition, but it's 240VAC and I can't (or won't) try to energize it. Weighs about 25 pounds of course, and no, I won't ship it to the UK. Please pick it up if you can! Near Santa Ana, CA. Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 19:33:18 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Bah! I've got too many HP-110 Plus portable computers! Message-ID: <20040930003318.37438.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, I have too many HP-110 Plus portable computers - this is the one with the large screen - 80 X 25 text. Works great, no power adapter, but the soft carrying case is included. I'd love to trade one for an Otrona Attache, Atari Stacy, ZX-Spectrum, cold hard cash, ???? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From rcini at optonline.net Wed Sep 29 19:48:37 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: SB180 problems In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040929171827.009f0320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c4a687$393b7450$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Joe: Thanks. I had a momentary short in the power supply line when I was moving the board around during some testing. Could be anything. That's why I was trying to decode what appears to be a diagnostic code on the screen before I start replacing things. It's probably NOT the CPU or the ROM only because I'm actually getting screen output. I'm guessing one of the 74xx chips or the DRAM. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SB180 problems Major bummer! I don;t have a source listing but I do have a couple of working SB-180s. I can dump the EPROMs for you if need be. Joe At 03:55 PM 9/29/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Does anyone on the list have a source listing (either original or >reconstructed) to the Circuit Cellar SB-180 monitor ROM? I did something >stupid to it a while back and I think I blew something on the board. Now, >when it boots up, instead of the banner I get what appears to be a >diagnostic code in binary. The documentation package I have neither has a >listing of the codes nor the ROM listing itself, and efforts to contact the >original author to have failed. > > Thanks in advance. > >Rich > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 29 19:55:11 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a@dunfield.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: <296490-22004943005511516@M2W040.mail2web.com> Hi Michael, Thanks - I'll take a look as soon as you have it posted - what is the site address? Regards, Dave Original Message: ----------------- From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 04 22:58:54 GMT To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Email client for older machines? (need help) dave04a@dunfield.com wrote: > Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either > DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a > incoming mail server separate from the POP account? CWRU-PC/IP for DOS should do it. I have it on my old DOS machine, let me put it up on my FTP site and I'll post the path. MS -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 29 19:58:13 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a@dunfield.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: <225040-22004943005813782@M2W032.mail2web.com> Hi Roger, Are you talking about "Eudora Pro 3"? - if so, I have a legit copy, but I didn't try it yet because the manual shows just a "POP3 account" field in the host setup - I need a separate "incoming mail host" field, and the POP3 username must be able to contain am "@xxx.yyy" which is DIFFERENT from the configured host (it gets sent as part of the login string apparently). Do you know if Eudora3 actually supports such a misconfigured server setup? Original Message: ----------------- From: Roger Merchberger zmerch@30below.com Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:06:44 -0400 To: dave04a@dunfield.com, cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Email client for older machines? (need help) Rumor has it that dave04a@dunfield.com may have mentioned these words: >Hi Guys, > >I know this is a OT, but I could really use some help, and I figure >this group is the most likely to be using a setup similar to mine... > >My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be completely incompatible >with my client - basically the POP server cannot not be determined from >the POP account name anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" >the server from the account name, it cannot connect. > >Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs under either >DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the ability to let you specify a >incoming mail server separate from the POP account? This one should do it: http://www.eudora.com/email/archive/pro_email3/ If not, try here: http://www.pmail.com/overviews/ovw_winpmail.htm (you'll have to search thru all the 32-bit shiznit to get to the 16-bit schtuff -- scroll down near the bottom...) They still have a DOS version, as well. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 29 19:59:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? In-Reply-To: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <20040929175602.E61751@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Pete Bartusek wrote: > Looking for about 10 5.25" blank Apple II or Atari 800 compatible > diskettes...just need something to play around with... At the risk of offending those who already know,... you'll find the search a lot easier if you realize that "360K" "DSDD" floppy disks are compatible. What you want is 300 Oersted diskettes, NOT "High density"/"1.2M",which are 600 Oersted. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 29 20:32:21 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: terminet on ebay Message-ID: <002401c4a68d$56790db0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Don't know if anyone noticed it, but there is a really nice looking GE RCA Terminet 30 terminal on ebay. Quite sweet! Jay From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Sep 29 21:13:04 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Altos 586 computer - Get it out of my garage! In-Reply-To: <20040930000723.52098.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040930000723.52098.qmail@web40914.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929191245.03ede4d0@mail.zipcon.net> waah. why the neat machines all in other states :( At 05:07 PM 9/29/2004, you wrote: >A "guy" gave me an Altos 586 computer - no terminals. > >I don't think I want it, do you? > >It is a multi-user Xenix box(?) with an internal >10Meg(?) hard drive. > >It powers-up and spins-up, but I didn't hook-up a >terminal to see if words come out. > >It is very heavy at 35 pounds. > >Currently near Santa Ana, CA. > >Steve. > > > > > > >_______________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! >http://vote.yahoo.com From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Sep 29 21:03:32 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: SCELBI peripherals Message-ID: <000001c4a691$b109e160$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Does anyone have any information, drawings, pictures, prints, etc. relating to the alpha-numeric oscilloscope interface for the SCELBI 8-H beyond what is described in SCELBI's 1974 catalog? A copy of the page is on the web at http://users.techline.com/cmlove/scelbi/pg16.htm . I'm also looking for any info on other SCELBI peripherals - the same catalog describes a cassette tape interface. What about SCELBI software (on paper tape or in electronic form, I have the listings)? - Jack Rubin Wilmette, Illinois USA From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Sep 30 01:46:52 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) In-Reply-To: <225040-22004943005813782@M2W032.mail2web.com> References: <225040-22004943005813782@M2W032.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040930073311.05adf5d0@pop.freeserve.net> At 01:58 30/09/2004, you wrote: >Hi Roger, > >Are you talking about "Eudora Pro 3"? - if so, I have a legit copy, but I >didn't try it yet because the manual shows just a "POP3 account" field in >the host setup - I need a separate "incoming mail host" field, and the >POP3 username must be able to contain am "@xxx.yyy" which is DIFFERENT >from the configured host (it gets sent as part of the login string >apparently). > >Do you know if Eudora3 actually supports such a misconfigured server >setup? Using the full username@hostname email address as a POP3 account name is quite common among some ISPs and hosting companies; it simplifies things considerably (form their point of view) when hosting many domains on one server, and avoids customer questions like "Why am I robert3812 when there's only one Robert on my domain?". The old versions of Eudora are quite odd in their account setup, simply asking for a POP account in the form xxxx@yyyy where xxxx is the actual account name as sent to the POP3 server, and yyyy is the address of the server. (Later versions separate out the fields properly.) ISTR, if your POP3 account name is actually, for example, "dave@xxx.yyy" and your POP3 server is, say "mail.some.isp", the syntax for the Eudora account field is: dave@xxx.yyy@mail.some.isp - this looks wrong, but works. (I have some odd recollections about replacing the first @ with a %, but it was some time ago I last used an old version of Eudora, and I might be confusing myself with the way Demon (UK ISP) allowed you to extract multiple mailboxes out of a single POP3 account by manipulating the account name.) HTH, Rob. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 03:38:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: VCF East 2.0 photos now available! Message-ID: Sorry for the delay, but without further ado: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCFEAST20 Thanks to all the great exhibitors that made the 2nd VCF East a real blast! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 03:39:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes Message-ID: I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write some DDS tapes that I'd like to read. The only clues I have are that they were written on a VAX of some sort under VAX OpenVMS 5.5-2. Any ideas? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 03:46:38 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 exhibitors needed Message-ID: We need more exhibitors at the upcoming VCF 7.0. If you are planning to exhibit then now would be a good time to submit an entry ;) http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/exhibit.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 30 07:02:30 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040930073311.05adf5d0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <225040-22004943005813782@M2W032.mail2web.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20040930073311.05adf5d0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040930070024.11791508@pc> At 01:46 AM 9/30/2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: >(I have some odd recollections about replacing the first @ with a %, but it was some time ago I last used an old version of Eudora, and I might be confusing myself with the way Demon (UK ISP) allowed you to extract multiple mailboxes out of a single POP3 account by manipulating the account name.) Many present-day virtual hosting servers use the same trick. I also have recollections of tweaking old-Eudora's settings by editing the text files directly as opposed to using the user interface. Eudora remains pleasantly text-based under the hood to this day; right now on the bench I'm setting up a nifty dual-CPU Mac G5 and transferring the user's Eudora mailboxes and all their settings from Windows to OS X without a hitch. - John From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:10:20 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report References: Message-ID: Wow, you guessed it. That's the beast. http://www.wi-inf.uni-essen.de/~schwarze/nt/karten/net37.html I think I'll go pick it up, sounds like fun to play with. At the least it'll be fun to look at it's output with the new signal analyzer we have at work :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gemeny" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:44 PM Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report > That sounds like an old NCR WaveLan card. The original was before the 802.11 > > standards. It operated in the 900MHz ISM band and was basicaly 2 Megabit wireless > > network card, compatable only with others like it. NCR sold the product line to Lucent > > at about the time the standards were adopted, as I recall. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Sep 30 08:13:39 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report References: <200409291048.28700.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:48 AM Subject: Re: University of Michigan Property Depot report > Hmm. I'd like to come up with a DASD for my S/390 at some point, so I > might do something more interesting with it than heat my garage... > > Anyways, I don't think you'd want to try to haul any IBM DASD inside an > SUV, unless you wanted to get new shocks. A trailer, however, would > probably work if rated for enough weight. > > The number that IBM gives as the minimum weight for an S/390 cabinet of > the type I have (9672) is 1300LBS for a single 6ft high 24" rack, which > explains the difficulty I had moving it across the carpeting in my last > apartment. :) Excellent! The Avalanche will carry 2000lbs and it's bed is 8' x 50". Perfect! My wife will be thrilled :) I bought some DECStations from a guy at UofMI a few years ago, he had one of those Intel 287-based supercomputers in his apartment. I'm still not sure how he got it up the stairs... From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 30 08:30:25 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) References: <262870-220049329225121872@M2W043.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <16732.2673.467000.918515@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "dave04a" == dave04a writes: dave04a> Hi Guys, I know this is a OT, but I could really use some dave04a> help, and I figure this group is the most likely to be using dave04a> a setup similar to mine... dave04a> My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be dave04a> completely incompatible with my client - basically the POP dave04a> server cannot not be determined from the POP account name dave04a> anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" the dave04a> server from the account name, it cannot connect. dave04a> Can anyone recommend a decent/simple email program that runs dave04a> under either DOS or Window3 (NOT win32!!!) that has the dave04a> ability to let you specify a incoming mail server separate dave04a> from the POP account? Emacs with VM will do it, and Emacs can run in DOS. paul From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Thu Sep 30 09:24:09 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: 7-track tape question Message-ID: <000a01c4a6f9$274ece00$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Paul, Thanks for your insights. I found some useful background info here: http://keemiarelva.tehas.ee/asjad/telecomi%20plaat/Kompuuterelektroonika/ These docs are in English, written (or at least compiled) in the early 80's. I'd be curious if anyone knows the original source for them. In any case, see the top of page 9-11 in the file 14091_ch9.pdf. It says "In addition to lateral parity, many units also use a longitudinal parity check." That seems to imply that some didn't. ???? best regards, Chris Muller Muller Media Conversions 32 Broadway, suite 1214 New York, NY 10004 http://www.mullermedia.com 212-344-0474 or 800-OLD2NEW From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 30 09:44:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: 7-track tape question References: <000a01c4a6f9$274ece00$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <16732.7128.274000.396448@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Muller writes: Chris> Paul, Thanks for your insights. I found some useful background Chris> info here: Chris> http://keemiarelva.tehas.ee/asjad/telecomi%20plaat/Kompuuterelektroonika/ Chris> These docs are in English, written (or at least compiled) in Chris> the early 80's. I'd be curious if anyone knows the original Chris> source for them. In any case, see the top of page 9-11 in the Chris> file 14091_ch9.pdf. Thank goodness they aren't in Estonian, as the website itself is... :-) Google found another copy of that for me: http://www.tpub.com/content/fc/index.htm which says it is a "fire controlman" training manual". (FWIW, I told Google to find "RD-358(V)/UYK" which shows up on that page you mentioned. Some of the other hits talk about Trident -- a nuclear missile submarine.) Chris> It says "In addition to lateral parity, many units also use a Chris> longitudinal parity check." That seems to imply that some Chris> didn't. I wonder if it was simply the author hedging his bets, since he couldn't say authoritatively that they all did. But it may be that indeed it was not always done. Given that it showed up back in 1955, and in all the CDC docs I checked, I would claim that, even if not universal, longitudinal parity was certainly the norm. paul From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Sep 30 09:30:52 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? In-Reply-To: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> References: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Message-ID: <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> I got some NOS from a local computer dealer for nothing, but I'm hanging on to them for dear life. You might try checking some of the smaller office supply outfits and/or Goodwill/Salvaation Army stores. These are turning into very rare items now. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO > Looking for about 10 5.25" blank Apple II or Atari 800 compatible > diskettes...just need something to play around with... > > Pete > pbmain@wideopenwest.com > From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Thu Sep 30 10:20:02 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (millenniumfalcon@cableone.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: HowdoIturnthisthingoffforafewdays? Message-ID: <144410-22004943015202761@M2W026.mail2web.com> I cannot for the life of me find the pause switch for this mail list. Can any one help?? Original Message: ----------------- From: ghldbrd@ccp.com Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:30:52 -0500 (CDT) To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? I got some NOS from a local computer dealer for nothing, but I'm hanging on to them for dear life. You might try checking some of the smaller office supply outfits and/or Goodwill/Salvaation Army stores. These are turning into very rare items now. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO > Looking for about 10 5.25" blank Apple II or Atari 800 compatible > diskettes...just need something to play around with... > > Pete > pbmain@wideopenwest.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From cb at mythtech.net Thu Sep 30 10:41:55 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Email client for older machines? (need help) Message-ID: >My ISP has just "upgraded" their email server to be completely incompatible >with my client - basically the POP server cannot not be determined from >the POP account name anymore, and since my ancient client "figures out" >the server from the account name, it cannot connect. I assume you already tried doing username@domain@pop.server and that failed (it actually works on some clients, any that parse from the back to the front it will work on). The other thing to try is, many of the ISPs that require this kind of setup (where the username is really username@domain) will accept an alternate character in place of the @ sign. Commonly it is % but has also been known to work with / or . or ? or any number of other symbols. Try replacing the first @ (the one on the username pair) with some other symbol and see if it accepts it. -chris From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 30 10:44:35 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Arix 800 Message-ID: <200409301144.36204.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Does anyone know anything about these? Google brings up 1 site in the Netherlands. The hard drives have been pulled and it is taking up space in my garage. Does anyone want it? -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 30 10:54:00 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: 30 September 2004 09:40 > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes > > > I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write > some DDS tapes that I'd like to read. The only clues I have > are that they were written on a VAX of some sort under VAX > OpenVMS 5.5-2. Yep, it's probably a DDS-1 tape either from a TLZ04 (2gb compressed) or TLZ06 (4gb compressed)..... cheers w From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 30 11:03:56 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? In-Reply-To: <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> References: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <200409301103.56115.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 30 September 2004 09:30, ghldbrd@ccp.com wrote: > I got some NOS from a local computer dealer for nothing, but I'm > hanging on to them for dear life. You might try checking some of the > smaller office supply outfits and/or Goodwill/Salvaation Army stores. > These are turning into very rare items now. > > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > > > Looking for about 10 5.25" blank Apple II or Atari 800 compatible > > diskettes...just need something to play around with... > > > > Pete > > pbmain@wideopenwest.com Not sure I'd say rare... http://search.ebay.com/DSDD_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQsotrZ2QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch I bought a box of a 300 or so (mixed 300 and 600 oesterd) disks for $12 including shipping from Canada a year or two ago on ebay. They're used disks, but still work just fine. Also, it appears that I've got some new 10-boxes of disks, if anyone is interested, drop me a line off-list. I don't really need them, and would rather they'd go to someone who has a use. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 11:41:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > > Computer Festival > > Sent: 30 September 2004 09:40 > > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes > > > > > > I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write > > some DDS tapes that I'd like to read. The only clues I have > > are that they were written on a VAX of some sort under VAX > > OpenVMS 5.5-2. > > Yep, it's probably a DDS-1 tape either from a TLZ04 (2gb compressed) or > TLZ06 (4gb compressed)..... Thanks, all! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 11:56:14 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:38 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 30, 2004 01:39:59 AM Message-ID: <200409301656.i8UGuE6g027245@onyx.spiritone.com> > I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write some DDS tapes > that I'd like to read. The only clues I have are that they were written > on a VAX of some sort under VAX OpenVMS 5.5-2. > > Any ideas? On a related note, I have a LOT of 4mm tapes sitting around that were written on a Unix system in the 1992 timeframe. I have no idea what type drive the tapes were written on. Anyone have any idea how to go about figuring this one out? My recommendation has been to send them to the data recovery service that we use (same with the stash of 8mm's). I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or a 8mm! Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 30 12:15:14 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <200409301656.i8UGuE6g027245@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200409301656.i8UGuE6g027245@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <415C3F22.4030700@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write some DDS tapes >>that I'd like to read. The only clues I have are that they were written >>on a VAX of some sort under VAX OpenVMS 5.5-2. >> >>Any ideas? > > > On a related note, I have a LOT of 4mm tapes sitting around that were > written on a Unix system in the 1992 timeframe. I have no idea what type > drive the tapes were written on. Anyone have any idea how to go about > figuring this one out? If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length printed on them that will tell you whether they're 1GB, 2GB, etc. Most DDS drives will read, if not write, older formats. IOW a DDS3 drive should rad a DDS1 tape. The bigger problem is whether hardware compression was used, and what Unix tools were used to create the tape - tar, cpio, dump - and those are just the common ones.... All the Unix standards allow TOC listing of an archive, which should tell you if you're using the right tool. DDS tapes have a write-protect as well, so if the tapes are in good shape, you ought to be able to do that non-destructively. > My recommendation has been to send them to the data recovery service that we > use (same with the stash of 8mm's). I'd be inclined to do some futzing around with them first. A DDS1-3 drive will just spit the tape if it can't ID the media, and depending on the Unix in question, it's an odds-on bet that the archives were made with either tar or cpio. > I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or a 8mm! True, but the time-frame for these narrows the field considerably. Doc From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 30 12:15:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes References: <200409301656.i8UGuE6g027245@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16732.16200.502793.638325@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or Zane> a 8mm! Indeed, since DLT drives tend to have read compability going WAY back. You may be able to read it on a current drive. paul From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 12:42:04 2004 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50806.127.0.0.1.1096483077.squirrel@mail.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20040930174204.68170.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> --- classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > I had that machine on my watch list and it was > sniped by some over-eager > beavers. . . > > Hell, I paid only a little more than that for my > Kenbak-1! eBay is crazy > I tell ya. > Great ad copy, didn't this guy sell an Altair several months ago for $7000 and all the Altairs before and after sold for around 1-2K. Couldn't find your Kenbak-1 on your web site. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 12:44:49 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <16732.16200.502793.638325@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 30, 2004 01:15:52 PM Message-ID: <200409301744.i8UHin8b028885@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane> I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or > Zane> a 8mm! > > Indeed, since DLT drives tend to have read compability going WAY > back. You may be able to read it on a current drive. > > paul Trust me, you can't. If you had a genuine DEC drive, up through something like a TK87 or TK88 can read TK50 and TK70 tapes, but the equivalent Quantum drives can't. Most of the drives we have now can no longer read DLT III tapes, and the ones we'll be recieving in our next Library can't read DLT IV tapes from what I heard yesterday. Having said that, I collect old tape drives (and when possible old tapes so I can first test the drives), so people around here tend to eventually come to me when they need odd tapes read. Zane From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Sep 30 12:49:35 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <200409301744.i8UHin8b028885@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Zane> I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or > > Zane> a 8mm! > > > > Indeed, since DLT drives tend to have read compability going WAY > > back. You may be able to read it on a current drive. > > > > paul > > Trust me, you can't. If you had a genuine DEC drive, up through something > like a TK87 or TK88 can read TK50 and TK70 tapes, but the equivalent Quantum > drives can't. Most of the drives we have now can no longer read DLT III > tapes, and the ones we'll be recieving in our next Library can't read DLT IV > tapes from what I heard yesterday. This is probably why I have about 10 of the TZ85, 86, 87 and 88 drives around here, in both DSSI (TF) as well as SCSI (TZ) variants :) Indeed, TZ85's reliably read TK50 and TK70 carts. --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Sep 30 13:01:20 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: AVAILABLE ($$$): DEC RD54-A MFM disk Message-ID: Hi, I have one of the above available. It wont be free (given their ePay-value) but for list members, I wont be charging quite as much as I'd do on ePay. Location: Holland - shipping probably wont be good for it... Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 13:11:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know out of area attendance to VCF 7.0 Message-ID: Sorry for the interruption... I need some help from the folks who are planning to attend VCF 7.0 from out of the area and will be staying in a hotel. I'm currently negotiating with the Residence Inn (Marriott) for a room block. These rooms should be every bit as good as the Marriott in Burlington, if not better, as they are all "residence" rooms (studio arrangement with internet access, full breakfast, etc.) The room rate being proposed is $79 per night. I need to get a very good idea of how many people plan to attend because they are trying to get me to commit to a certain number of rooms that I will be responsible for paying for if they don't get filled. Please contact me directly . Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Sep 30 13:10:42 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes References: <200409301656.i8UGuE6g027245@onyx.spiritone.com> <415C3F22.4030700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001001c4a718$cd5a7e10$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "Discussion@mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: Re: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>I am trying to figure out what tape drive was used to write some DDS tapes > >>that I'd like to read. The only clues I have are that they were written > >>on a VAX of some sort under VAX OpenVMS 5.5-2. > >> > >>Any ideas? > > > > > > On a related note, I have a LOT of 4mm tapes sitting around that were > > written on a Unix system in the 1992 timeframe. I have no idea what type > > drive the tapes were written on. Anyone have any idea how to go about > > figuring this one out? > > If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length > printed on them that will tell you whether they're 1GB, 2GB, etc. Most > DDS drives will read, if not write, older formats. IOW a DDS3 drive > should rad a DDS1 tape. > > The bigger problem is whether hardware compression was used, and what > Unix tools were used to create the tape - tar, cpio, dump - and those > are just the common ones.... All the Unix standards allow TOC listing > of an archive, which should tell you if you're using the right tool. > DDS tapes have a write-protect as well, so if the tapes are in good > shape, you ought to be able to do that non-destructively. > > > My recommendation has been to send them to the data recovery service that we > > use (same with the stash of 8mm's). > > I'd be inclined to do some futzing around with them first. A DDS1-3 > drive will just spit the tape if it can't ID the media, and depending on > the Unix in question, it's an odds-on bet that the archives were made > with either tar or cpio. > > > I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or a 8mm! > > True, but the time-frame for these narrows the field considerably. > > > Doc > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:14:43 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <200409301744.i8UHin8b028885@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 30 September 2004 18:45 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes > > Trust me, you can't. If you had a genuine DEC drive, up > through something like a TK87 or TK88 can read TK50 and TK70 > tapes, but the equivalent Quantum drives can't. Most of the The last DEC DLT drive to read the older formats was the TZ88, after that the head design changed with the TZ88N which could only read TZ87/8 tapes. Somewhere on usenet is a post by one of the DEC tape boffins explaining it all but he spoke in Oersteds and I kind of lost the plot :) > drives we have now can no longer read DLT III tapes, and the > ones we'll be recieving in our next Library can't read DLT IV > tapes from what I heard yesterday. SDLT by any chance? cheers w From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Sep 30 13:18:14 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20040930174204.68170.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <50806.127.0.0.1.1096483077.squirrel@mail.vintage-computer.com> <20040930174204.68170.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39181.127.0.0.1.1096568294.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> > Great ad copy, didn't this guy sell an Altair several > months ago for $7000 and all the Altairs before and > after sold for around 1-2K. Obviously salesmanship does count for a lot on eBay! I've tracked Altair sales for a couple of years now, though, and the one thing I can predict is that you can't predict the prices those will get. . . 2-3K seems to be the nominal range, but I've seen several go higher for no apparent reason! > Couldn't find your Kenbak-1 on your web site. Try again now. I'm a bit behind on website updates (a chronic condition, I think) but this machine merited a quick page, at least. I just uploaded it. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Sep 30 13:50:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <200409301744.i8UHin8b028885@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <16732.16200.502793.638325@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200409301744.i8UHin8b028885@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040930185020.GB17812@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 10:44:49AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Trust me, you can't. If you had a genuine DEC drive, up through something > like a TK87 or TK88 can read TK50 and TK70 tapes, but the equivalent Quantum > drives can't. Most of the drives we have now can no longer read DLT III > tapes, and the ones we'll be recieving in our next Library can't read DLT IV > tapes from what I heard yesterday. > > Having said that, I collect old tape drives (and when possible old tapes so > I can first test the drives), so people around here tend to eventually come > to me when they need odd tapes read. If anyone has any "old" DLT-III or DLT-IV drives lying around, unloved, I can put them to use at home (here, we are using SDLTs and have deprecated older DLT formats except for the occasion we have to send data to someone that hasn't yet bought an SDLT drive). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Sep-2004 18:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -61.3 F (-51.9 C) Windchill -106.1 F (-76.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.8 kts Grid 040 Barometer 676.5 mb (10760 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 14:12:14 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: personal iris on ebay Message-ID: <26c11a64040930121247f48d86@mail.gmail.com> There are 3 on one auction going for ?15 at the moment. Collection from Brighton http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1486&item=5722465391&rd=1 Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:27:00 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: personal iris on ebay In-Reply-To: <26c11a64040930121247f48d86@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64040930121247f48d86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1096572420.9136.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-09-30 at 20:12 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=1486&item=5722465391&rd=1 Dammit, and he has three keyboards too! If anyone grabs these and can stomach parting with a keyboard, talk to me :-) Being a broke museum and being swamped in equipment already means that I really couldn't justify three machines - but a keyboard sure would be nice (currently we're running with an Indigo keyboard via a bodged lead for our 4D/25, but then that leaves two Indigos without a keyboard!) Wonder what he considers to be a large SCSI drive? Hmm... cheers, Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 30 14:54:09 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <415C3F22.4030700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00d901c4a727$407e03e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length Is there a non Usian spelling? > printed on them that will tell you whether they're 1GB, 2GB, > etc. Most > DDS drives will read, if not write, older formats. IOW a DDS3 drive > should rad a DDS1 tape. Indeed. The thing not to do is put a DDS3 (or DDS2) DAT tape in a DDS1 drive. At least not if the drive is a TLZ04 since you will "significantly" degrade the head's lifetime. I never found out how significant "significant" is. The problem is that tapes longer than 60m were designed to be used on drives that wrapped them around the heads at a different angle, so the tapes are different. The difference is enough to wear the TLZ04 head much more than is acceptable. I do not know whether dropping a 120m tape (DDS3) into a TLZ06 (DDS2 drive) will have similar effects. So be careful out there! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 15:57:04 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <415C3F22.4030700@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Sep 30, 2004 12:15:14 PM Message-ID: <200409302057.i8UKv4wW005780@onyx.spiritone.com> > If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length > printed on them that will tell you whether they're 1GB, 2GB, etc. Most > DDS drives will read, if not write, older formats. IOW a DDS3 drive > should rad a DDS1 tape. Interesting, I'd not considered trying to read them in a newer drive. I do know that about seven years ago I tried reading some with the DDS1 drives that we had at the time (they'd have been written on a DDS1 drive). The research I did at that time indicated that for a DDS1 tape, you *REALLY* need to know the type drive they were written on in order to read them, as one manufacturers DDS1 drive was likely to be incompatible with anothers. > > My recommendation has been to send them to the data recovery service that we > > use (same with the stash of 8mm's).[A > > I'd be inclined to do some futzing around with them first. A DDS1-3 > drive will just spit the tape if it can't ID the media, and depending on > the Unix in question, it's an odds-on bet that the archives were made > with either tar or cpio. At this point, due to the value of the data on the tapes, I'm not sure I feel comfortable attempting to retrieve it, as I'm operating under the assumption that you have one try per tape, and this is with tapes that have been stored properly. Still the big thing is I simply don't have time to deal with the amount we have. > > I'd much rather have to retrieve data from a TK50 than a 4mm or a 8mm! > > True, but the time-frame for these narrows the field considerably. Based on what I've seen, and what I've read on media longevity, the lifespan of a TK50 is considerably longer than a 8mm (8mm, has a two year lifespan, I'm not sure what the lifespan of 4mm tapes are). I've recovered data from TK50's that were 15+ years old. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 16:01:03 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 30, 2004 07:14:43 PM Message-ID: <200409302101.i8UL13he005926@onyx.spiritone.com> > > drives we have now can no longer read DLT III tapes, and the > > ones we'll be recieving in our next Library can't read DLT IV > > tapes from what I heard yesterday. > > SDLT by any chance? SDLT600, the SDLT220's we're using now can read DLT IV tapes (at least ones written in DLT7000 and DLT8000 drives), but can't write to them. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 30 16:31:30 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <00d901c4a727$407e03e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <00d901c4a727$407e03e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <415C7B32.4020506@mdrconsult.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > > >> If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length > > > Is there a non Usian spelling? No, just an incorrect one. "carthridges" seems to be all the rage on CCtalk. > Indeed. The thing not to do is put a DDS3 (or DDS2) DAT tape in > a DDS1 drive. At least not if the drive is a TLZ04 since you > will "significantly" degrade the head's lifetime. I never > found out how significant "significant" is. The problem is > that tapes longer than 60m were designed to be used on drives > that wrapped them around the heads at a different angle, so > the tapes are different. The difference is enough to wear > the TLZ04 head much more than is acceptable. I do not know > whether dropping a 120m tape (DDS3) into a TLZ06 (DDS2 drive) > will have similar effects. > > So be careful out there! I don't think that either the TZ04 or the TZ06 do the media recognition required to spit an incompatible tape, but then, I've never seen a 120m DDS3 circa 1992. ;) Just to pick nits, I've never seen 60m 4mm referred to as DDS. DDS1 is 90m and higher, as far as I know. If anybody has a correction for me, it's very welcome. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 16:40:48 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes References: <00d901c4a727$407e03e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <007301c4a736$270b96c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:54 PM Subject: RE: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes > > > If the cartridges (note correct USian spelling) have a tape length > > Is there a non Usian spelling? > > > printed on them that will tell you whether they're 1GB, 2GB, > > etc. Most > > DDS drives will read, if not write, older formats. IOW a DDS3 drive > > should rad a DDS1 tape. > > Indeed. The thing not to do is put a DDS3 (or DDS2) DAT tape in > a DDS1 drive. At least not if the drive is a TLZ04 since you > will "significantly" degrade the head's lifetime. I never > found out how significant "significant" is. The problem is > that tapes longer than 60m were designed to be used on drives > that wrapped them around the heads at a different angle, so > the tapes are different. The difference is enough to wear > the TLZ04 head much more than is acceptable. I do not know > whether dropping a 120m tape (DDS3) into a TLZ06 (DDS2 drive) > will have similar effects. > > So be careful out there! > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org DDS3 is 125M, 120M is DDS2 correct? DDS1 tapes are 90M From oldcomp at cox.net Thu Sep 30 17:02:58 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <50806.127.0.0.1.1096483077.squirrel@mail.vintage-computer.com> References: <200409290244.TAA09317@clulw009.amd.com> <50806.127.0.0.1.1096483077.squirrel@mail.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <415C8292.3010701@cox.net> > Hell, I paid only a little more than that for my Kenbak-1! eBay is crazy > I tell ya. > I wish it were a little more crazy! I have listed one of my systems to help raise the money I need to attend the VCF this year, but with less than one day to go, it is looking bleak for the digital group. (Here comes the plug:) See my auction at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5125435200 Admittedly, the starting bid is higher than the eBay norm, but this is the first time a working dg system has appeared on eBay in over five years, and is only the seventh to ever sell there. The digital group contributed many firsts to the world of personal computing... I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? -disgruntled seller From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Sep 30 17:23:18 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: DEC RQZX1 manual? Message-ID: Hi all, Did anyone ever make manuals for newer DEC boards such as the RQZX1 (M5977) and 11/93 CPU (M8981) available? I cant find any.. :( --f From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 30 17:42:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <415C8292.3010701@cox.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Bryan Blackburn wrote: > I wish it were a little more crazy! I have listed one of my systems to > help raise the money I need to attend the VCF this year, but with less > than one day to go, it is looking bleak for the digital group. (Here > comes the plug:) See my auction at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5125435200 > > Admittedly, the starting bid is higher than the eBay norm, but this is > the first time a working dg system has appeared on eBay in over five > years, and is only the seventh to ever sell there. The digital group > contributed many firsts to the world of personal computing... > > I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other > than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? And if you buy this you can bring it to VCF 7.0 and have it signed by Dr. Robert Suding, the designer of this machine and co-founder of the digital group! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 18:08:44 2004 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <39181.127.0.0.1.1096568294.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <20040930230844.34322.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> --- classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > > Couldn't find your Kenbak-1 on your web site. > > Try again now. I'm a bit behind on website updates > (a chronic condition, > I think) but this machine merited a quick page, at > least. > > I just uploaded it. > Ah, very nice, them Kenbak's are rare indeed! I always wanted a TTL based computer, I'm thinking about building the Educ-8, http://www.ljw.me.uk/educ8/ , a similar TTL based machine described in an electronics australia article in 1975. Amazingly, they still sell the boards for it, or at least in theory they do, I've been trying to obtain boards for many months here http://www.cia.com.au/rcsradio/index1.htm but they refuse my money (too busy). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 30 18:11:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self pro (SANYO MONITOR) References: Message-ID: <001401c4a742$d567b440$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have a question about the sanyo monitor in that picture. For nostalgic reasons to recreate a particular system from my past, I am looking for that exact model of sanyo monitor. However, I have no idea what model number that is. I see the auction lists it as a Sanyo MON-9, but I assume that is a digitalgroup designation. Would anyone know exactly what the sanyo model number for that particular monitor in the picture is? Or better yet have one for trade :) Thanks Jay West From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 30 18:11:59 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <00d901c4a727$407e03e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > the TLZ04 head much more than is acceptable. I do not know > whether dropping a 120m tape (DDS3) into a TLZ06 (DDS2 drive) > will have similar effects. As has been pointed out in private email (and probably here once it turns up) TLZ04 (60m tapes) is before the DDS nomenclature started, 90m is DDS1, 120m is DDS2, 125m is DDS3. Typical off-by-one error :-) Sorry Apart from that, still be careful what you put where. The tape-wearing properties of >60m tapes in a TLZ04 (and presumably other drives designed for 60m tapes) are real. The TLZ07 (120m tapes) manual suggests that 120m tapes should not be put in a TLZ06 (90m tapes drive). Not clear whether the TLZ06 would recognise 120m tapes as bad for it and refuse to use them or happily wear its head out on them. My drives always seem to protect themselves by chewing all the tapes, so I've never managed to dirty a head, never mind wear one out :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 30 18:14:58 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay Message-ID: <200409302314.QAA10722@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bryan Blackburn" ---snip--- > >I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other >than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? Hi Actually it did provide a turning point in micro processors. It was the first S-100 to have only a power and reset button on the front. It had a monitor ROM built in that provided a display of memory and registers, using the memory mapped video. The ROM also had the tape read code built in. They'd have put the tape write code in it as well but that was all they could squeeze into the 1K EPROM. The tape was capable of both Byte format and a high speed ( I forget if it was 9600 or 4800 ). To write to the tape, one could enter the program through the monitor. Of course, it made sense to save that program as your first tape program. The Poly88 had its problems. cooling was a big issue. I have two of these, fully operational :) Dwight From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Sep 30 18:18:56 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? In-Reply-To: <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <20040930231856.19036.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> Are the disks for Apple II and Atari different from those used in the IBM PC (not AT)? Are these by chance hard-sectored? --Bill From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Sep 30 18:19:40 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <415C8292.3010701@cox.net> Message-ID: <45430.127.0.0.1.1096586380.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> > And if you buy this you can bring it to VCF 7.0 and have it signed by Dr. > Robert Suding, the designer of this machine and co-founder of the digital > group! Or better yet, buy it and have Bryan lug it to the VCF for you to collect and get signed! :) I wish I could, but I just spent the last of my hobby tolerance capital for the year. . . Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 30 18:22:28 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: DEC RQZX1 manual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040930191308.03109640@192.168.0.1> At 06:23 PM 9/30/2004, you wrote: >Did anyone ever make manuals for newer DEC boards such as the >RQZX1 (M5977) and 11/93 CPU (M8981) available? I cant find >any.. :( Nothing for the RQZX1 (is there really such a thing?) But I do have the MicroPDP-11 Customer Hardware Information Kit Addendum EK-406AA-AD-001 from when we upgraded a customer to an 11/93 - KDJ11-E. Small notebook size, maybe 100 pages or so. No time to scan whole thing at the moment though. Have a bunch of stuff I want to scan for bitsavers, this included. Can't get my nephew in anymore, and my girls are off to college. Need to hire a temp for a day or so. Ed K. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 30 18:42:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: ebay id? Message-ID: <002e01c4a747$2a47ed50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Would the ebay id "djhamma" be anyone here? Jay West From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Sep 30 18:51:11 2004 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: ebay id? In-Reply-To: <002e01c4a747$2a47ed50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200409302351.TAA64243@smtp.9netave.com> Is that anything like MC Hammer? :-) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ebay id? Would the ebay id "djhamma" be anyone here? Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 18:58:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 00:11 +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > As has been pointed out in private email (and probably > here once it turns up) TLZ04 (60m tapes) is before > the DDS nomenclature started, 90m is DDS1, > 120m is DDS2, 125m is DDS3. 60M DDS tapes also exist though - I have quite a few on the shelf above me, made by various manafacturers. I believe any DDS-1 DAT drive will read/write 60 or 90M DDS tapes (that *may* vary by drive manufacturer though) - it's just that TLZ04's happen to be 60M but not DDS. 60M DDS tapes are 1.3GB, 90M DDS tapes are 2.0GB and 120M DDS-2 tapes are 4GB, IIRC. No idea about DDS-3; I've got one stray DDS-3 tape I think but no drive to put it in :-) > My drives always seem to protect themselves > by chewing all the tapes, so I've never managed to > dirty a head, never mind wear one out :-) Mine too. They self-destruct long before the head wears out :-) Always keep a backup DAT drive handy for your backup tapes... ;-) cheers Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Sep 30 19:08:17 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: ebay id? In-Reply-To: <002e01c4a747$2a47ed50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040930200743.03170768@192.168.0.1> At 07:42 PM 9/30/2004, you wrote: >Would the ebay id "djhamma" be anyone here? Google turned up lot of hits from Hawaii for djhamma Ed K. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 30 19:16:28 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: ebay id? References: <200409302351.TAA64243@smtp.9netave.com> Message-ID: <00d001c4a74b$e69903f0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Eros" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 7:51 PM Subject: RE: ebay id? > Is that anything like MC Hammer? > > :-) > Ha, he doesn't any money to be spending on eBay these days! From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Sep 30 19:55:50 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: ebay id? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040930200743.03170768@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <001401c4a751$656d2da0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> but none hp related! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: Re: ebay id? > At 07:42 PM 9/30/2004, you wrote: >>Would the ebay id "djhamma" be anyone here? > > > Google turned up lot of hits from Hawaii for djhamma > > Ed K. > > From David.Kane at aph.gov.au Thu Sep 30 20:37:07 2004 From: David.Kane at aph.gov.au (Kane, David (DPS)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay Message-ID: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC2080C66@email1.parl.net> > wanted a TTL based computer, I'm thinking about > building the Educ-8, http://www.ljw.me.uk/educ8/ , a > similar TTL based machine described in an electronics > australia article in 1975. Amazingly, they still sell > the boards for it, or at least in theory they do, I've I managed to collect the original magazines with the Educ-8 articles as well as scans of the articles, and although the boards are available I am not sure they would all that useful. The Educ-8 was designed around both 74 and 8 series TTLs. I did some cross referencing, but could not locate datasheets on all the 8 series ICs used, so I am not 100% certain that there are pin equivalent 74 series ICs for all. This might mean a board reroute. David From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 30 20:46:57 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: >Mine too. They self-destruct long before the head wears out :-) Always >keep a backup DAT drive handy for your backup tapes... ;-) Always keep a backup *Tape Drive* or *two* around to read your backup tapes :^) Especially since I suspect most of us are using old tape drives for our backups, rather than brand new drives. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 30 22:18:59 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20040930230844.34322.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040930230844.34322.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409302319.01117.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Thursday 30 September 2004 19:08, steve wrote: > --- classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > Ah, very nice, them Kenbak's are rare indeed! I always > wanted a TTL based computer, I'm thinking about > building the Educ-8, http://www.ljw.me.uk/educ8/ , a I have trouble getting this page to load. > similar TTL based machine described in an electronics > australia article in 1975. Amazingly, they still sell > the boards for it, or at least in theory they do, I've > been trying to obtain boards for many months here > http://www.cia.com.au/rcsradio/index1.htm > > but they refuse my money (too busy). the Mark-8 kits are listed on E-bay again starting at $299 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5127570620 -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Looking for: PICMG backplane Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From oldcomp at cox.net Thu Sep 30 22:51:07 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self pro (SANYO MONITOR) In-Reply-To: <001401c4a742$d567b440$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001401c4a742$d567b440$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <415CD42B.7050900@cox.net> > reasons to recreate a particular system from my past, I am looking for > that exact model of sanyo monitor. However, I have no idea what model > number that is. I see the auction lists it as a Sanyo MON-9, but I > assume that is a digitalgroup designation. MON-9 is the dg number. > Would anyone know exactly what the sanyo model number for that > particular monitor in the picture is? Or better yet have one for trade :) My documentation says VM4209. -Bryan From oldcomp at cox.net Thu Sep 30 23:08:06 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200409302314.QAA10722@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200409302314.QAA10722@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <415CD826.30602@cox.net> >>I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other >>than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? > > Actually it did provide a turning point in micro processors. > It was the first S-100 to have only a power and reset button on the front. > It had a monitor ROM built in that provided a display of memory and > registers, using the memory mapped video. The ROM also had the > tape read code built in. They'd have put the tape write code in ->snip<- So. What I hear you saying, is that they were the first to copy the digital group...! :) -Bryan From bv at norbionics.com Mon Sep 27 12:12:52 2004 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> References: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:40:20 -0400, Jim Donoghue wrote: > On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 22:08, William Donzelli wrote: >> > There are SOME people (I am NOT one) who actually feel that >> > DECIMAL is the right way to go in computers! >> >> If the computers are doing my bank statements, then yes, I am one of >> them. > > I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM mainframes) > that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. I don't mean 'decimal > adjust' instructions, I'm talking about full > add/subtract/multiply/divide/etc. The only other one I know of is the > Wang VS, which came standard with support for 'packed decimal' data, and > even floating-point decimal. The Wang VS instruction set was very > similar to the IBM 360/370, even the packed decimal data format was the > same. > If I remember right, the NCR315 had full BCD arithmetic. At least the arithmetic instructions it had were decimal, I do not remember if it actually had a divide instruction in hardware. It was even so decimal-oriented that memory was addressed in decimal. A rather nice feature was that all internal registers were ferrite core. If it stopped because of a power falure, it could be restarted in the exact instruction step where it had stopped. When I was working for NCR Norway in the early 70's, the bulk of input to the 315 came from OCR - reading cash register rolls printed in National Optical Font. Not bad for a cumputer which was shipping earlier than the IBM 360. We also had dial-up data transfer over modem from England, but that seemed a bit trivial when Norway was connected to ARPANET the year after. That, however, is a totally different story. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Sep 28 01:14:48 2004 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: rewriting legacy OS for new iron In-Reply-To: <200409271625.i8RGPhkL002149@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200409280614.i8S6EmvW015068@cosc353.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Brad Parker : > Greg Ewing wrote: > > Hey, neat! That means there's still a chance I could > > be the first... > > Too late. Some guys in Japan did "pop-11". > > I've been trying to coax the orginal source out of the authors with no > luck so far. Hmmm... so maybe I could be the first to release one as open source... Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From carlo at kbnet.co.uk Tue Sep 28 08:14:53 2004 From: carlo at kbnet.co.uk (Carlo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: HP5245 Info Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040928151453.007ec320@host1.kbnet.co.uk> Hi Have stumbled over the messages about HP5245, I have one, its been working for years but now its developed some faults some of the digits are stuck on a number.Like to have some basic diagrams before I start fault finding, diagram of the two display boards decade counter boards would be nice. Kind Regards Carlo Kowcun (Italy) From Jm4zn at aol.com Thu Sep 30 18:54:23 2004 From: Jm4zn at aol.com (Jm4zn@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: Macinosh Classic RJ11 keyboard and mouse Message-ID: <25.4f1aaa99.2e8df6af@aol.com> Do you still have that Mac Classic RJ11 keyboard and mouse for sale for $5 plus shipping? Thanks, Jeanette From david at dynamicconcepts.us Thu Sep 30 20:37:20 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: memory on e-bay... Message-ID: Could be handy if.... 1) the price does not go too high... 2) they have not been damaged.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &category=1247&item=3842659608&rd=1 From bill.hodgson at solitaireauto.com.au Thu Sep 30 22:15:50 2004 From: bill.hodgson at solitaireauto.com.au (Bill Hodgson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: NEC Multispeed HD Setup Disk Message-ID: Hello Rob.. if you are still looking for a genuine NEC MULTISPEED Setup disk, I can send you a copy of mine. Bill Hodgson - Adelaide, South Australia