From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 1 01:19:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:39 2005 Subject: + - * . &apology; Message-ID: re: local syntax rules etc... I'm sorry I was so rude to people in this list, there was no reason for me to be so snippy. From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Oct 1 04:49:48 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC RQZX1 manual? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040930191308.03109640@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: Morning Ed, > Nothing for the RQZX1 (is there really such a thing?) Oh yes. DEC finally saw the light (in Feb, 1990) and designed a new version of the RQDX3. It supports both SCSI (disks and tapes) as well as standard SA450 floppies. From what I can see so far, it even uses the same MSCP ID as the RQDX3 :) > But I do have the MicroPDP-11 Customer Hardware Information Kit Addendum > EK-406AA-AD-001 > from when we upgraded a customer to an 11/93 - KDJ11-E. Ahh, that would be really good to have... I do have the Hardware Information Kit which goes upto and including the /83, so this is probably all I need for now. Switch settings and the like.. --f From wacarder at usit.net Fri Oct 1 07:39:51 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: RL02 / RL01 rack mounting rails needed Message-ID: <003801c4a7b3$bfa82970$5a120f14@mcothran1> Does anyone have any spare rack mounting rail sets for a DEC RL02 or RL01 drive? I need two or three sets to mount some of my drives in a rack. Thanks, Ashley From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 1 07:51:32 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: looking for 3 or 4 half-height (5.25") panels - trade? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113306@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi, I am looking for 3 or 4 half-height (5,25") front panels, black with white/yellowish border to close some gaps in the front of my H960 racks. I offer a trade of *two* full-height (10.5") panels for *one* 5.25" panel. - Henk , www.pdp-11.nl The Netherlands From wacarder at usit.net Fri Oct 1 08:04:09 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: looking for 3 or 4 half-height (5.25") panels - trade? References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113306@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <007001c4a7b7$24398660$5a120f14@mcothran1> Henk, I may have some spares. I'll check tonight when I get home and go out to my shop. I don't need more full height panels, though, because I have plenty of them. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gooijen H" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: looking for 3 or 4 half-height (5.25") panels - trade? > Hi, > I am looking for 3 or 4 half-height (5,25") front panels, > black with white/yellowish border to close some gaps in > the front of my H960 racks. > I offer a trade of *two* full-height (10.5") panels for > *one* 5.25" panel. > > - Henk , www.pdp-11.nl > The Netherlands From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 1 10:04:13 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: bitsavers owner? Message-ID: <1096643053.10761.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Right, I've gone and forgotten who looks after bitsavers.org - I know it's one of you, anyone fancy owning up? :-) cheers, Jules -- I'm sorry for all the times I intentionally ducked underneath the sneeze guard at a salad bar and sneezed on everything until I couldn't sneeze any more. I have a problem. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 10:29:03 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: bitsavers owner? In-Reply-To: <1096643053.10761.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096643053.10761.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: >Right, I've gone and forgotten who looks after bitsavers.org - I know >it's one of you, anyone fancy owning up? :-) Al Kossow owns it. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 1 13:06:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: spec sheet for a 8308 Message-ID: <200410011806.LAA11447@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I'm looking for a spec sheet on a 8308. I think it is part of the older National Semi series DM8308. It might be a 8303 ( the schematic is not to clear ). I think it is an inverting 8 channel bus tranceiver. I need information on which way the drivers go with the direction control and is the enable true or false. Of course, a spec sheet would be great. Also, I could use one of these IC's as well but I'm prepared to make one with a couple of 74LS242's. I just need a little more info. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 1 13:07:59 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay Message-ID: <200410011807.LAA11451@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bryan Blackburn" > > >>>I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other >>>than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? >> >> Actually it did provide a turning point in micro processors. >> It was the first S-100 to have only a power and reset button on the front. >> It had a monitor ROM built in that provided a display of memory and >> registers, using the memory mapped video. The ROM also had the >> tape read code built in. They'd have put the tape write code in > >->snip<- > >So. What I hear you saying, is that they were the first to copy the >digital group...! :) Is it S-100? When did they first come out? Dwight > >-Bryan > > From kevin.mclintock at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 14:04:07 2004 From: kevin.mclintock at gmail.com (Kevin Mc) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: AT&T Gemini Electronic Whiteboard Message-ID: <85dca762041001120422162d47@mail.gmail.com> Hello Everyone, I am searching for an AT&T Gemini whiteboard. This forum has proven to be a great place for information on them in the past, so I am hoping that someone out there has one (or knows where I might find one). Thank you! -Kevin From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 1 14:16:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 Lodging Information Message-ID: For those coming to VCF 7.0 from out of the area, this just in: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/lodging.php Room rates are $79 per night. RESERVATIONS MUST BE MADE BY OCTOBER 15! All the details and information available at the above URL. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Oct 1 15:11:46 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: AS/400 9404 and TWINAX questions... References: Message-ID: <415DBA02.A9E3B2D8@msm.umr.edu> Don Hills wrote: > jim stephens wrote: the clunker we had would bomb about every 60 days, i assumed it was even on that time, since several people said it was.... anyway the software was from a tape that came with the system, not licensed, so I was only trying to get something other than the cursor on the screen. I was told by others that you had to enter some crap somewhere to set the license and enable what you paid for and you had in the mean time from the time you loaded your tapes or cd's or floppies a grace period to get things set up before your license arrived. At least the users of the AS/400 used the time to make sure they had ordered everything they needed before the system locked up. we only brought up some screen after login just to paint the screen with data for testing being able to hook to it physically, and scrape the screen. other people later bought a license, but that was after I left. They did more tools for interconnect I think. jim From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 1 15:39:02 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeumanZ In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040928161252.00b02ce8@mail.30below.com> References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040928161252.00b02ce8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > If you consider MERGEing different basic programs (if you MERGE in a new > program where line numbers match, most basics that I'd worked with would > replace the original statement with the new... if you count that, it was > rather common in the CoCo world. BASIC "code" is data, interpreted by an interpreter program, so this does not count as self-modifying in a global sort of way. In fact the whole idea of self-modifying and to a limited extent, stored-program is somewhat slippery. Non-stored-program computers, like the old Harvard relay calculators and new Microchip Inc's PICs, can however simulate a stored-program computer, by having the fixed, unchanging program be an interpreter for a scheme that is, in effect, stored-program. This isn't very amazing or even notable, since "real" stored-program computers are made out of dumb things like transistors or even tubes, so making one out of a Harvard arch "computer" is only a subset. From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 1 15:51:11 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: I think a lot of this discussion missed the point, that 'stored program' refers to what we (still) call HARDWARE. I'm not convinced that all that many people really know what a computer is (in Wittgenstein's direction) vs. what a computer DOES (in Bill Gates' eyes)! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 1 15:55:48 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman References: <200409281646.JAA08936@clulw009.amd.com> <16729.56261.130279.832526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <415DC454.7040106@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > I think a lot of this discussion missed the point, that 'stored > program' refers to what we (still) call HARDWARE. > > I'm not convinced that all that many people really know what a > computer is (in Wittgenstein's direction) vs. what a computer > DOES (in Bill Gates' eyes)! > Gates Computers = $$$ people You work on computers to make $$$ Classic users you make $$$ to collect computers From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Oct 1 15:57:06 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay References: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC2080C66@email1.parl.net> Message-ID: <006401c4a7fc$212fe280$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kane, David (DPS)" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:37 AM Subject: RE: Kenbak-1 Was: Poly88 on ebay The Educ-8 was designed around > both 74 and 8 series TTLs. I did some cross referencing, but could not > locate datasheets on all the 8 series ICs used, > David > Which ones are you missing ? Geoff. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 1 18:12:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200409302314.QAA10722@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041001191211.009c1e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:14 PM 9/30/04 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Bryan Blackburn" >---snip--- >> >>I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other >>than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? > >Hi > Actually it did provide a turning point in micro processors. >It was the first S-100 to have only a power and reset button on the front. >It had a monitor ROM built in that provided a display of memory and >registers, using the memory mapped video. The ROM also had the >tape read code built in. They'd have put the tape write code in >it as well but that was all they could squeeze into the 1K EPROM. >The tape was capable of both Byte format and a high speed ( I forget >if it was 9600 or 4800 ). To write to the tape, one could enter >the program through the monitor. Of course, it made sense to save >that program as your first tape program. OK so what's the big deal? Intel had all of these features in their MDS-800s (and maybe in their earlier Intellecs, I don't know). The MDS was Multibus but that's no big deal. The Poly88 had its problems. >cooling was a big issue. > I have two of these, fully operational :) I think I have NINE MDSs all functional :-) Joe >Dwight > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 1 18:31:41 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay Message-ID: <200410012331.QAA11621@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 04:14 PM 9/30/04 -0700, you wrote: >>>From: "Bryan Blackburn" >>---snip--- >>> >>>I may be whacked in the head, but what did the Poly 88 innovate other >>>than cuteness? Or maybe that doesn't matter because it is has an s-100 buss? >> >>Hi >> Actually it did provide a turning point in micro processors. >>It was the first S-100 to have only a power and reset button on the front. >>It had a monitor ROM built in that provided a display of memory and >>registers, using the memory mapped video. The ROM also had the >>tape read code built in. They'd have put the tape write code in >>it as well but that was all they could squeeze into the 1K EPROM. >>The tape was capable of both Byte format and a high speed ( I forget >>if it was 9600 or 4800 ). To write to the tape, one could enter >>the program through the monitor. Of course, it made sense to save >>that program as your first tape program. > > OK so what's the big deal? Intel had all of these features in their >MDS-800s (and maybe in their earlier Intellecs, I don't know). The MDS was >Multibus but that's no big deal. > > > > The Poly88 had its problems. >>cooling was a big issue. >> I have two of these, fully operational :) > > I think I have NINE MDSs all functional :-) > > Joe > Hi Joe The monitor on the MDS800 isn't as good as the Poly's, it isn't S-100 and it has 8 switches on the front, other than power. Although, only one of these switches it needed to get to the monitor. The display is not memory mapped so you don't get the same richness of information in depth or in speed. Then, the 800 was designed to solve different problems. Dwight From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 19:15:29 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: bitsavers owner? In-Reply-To: <1096643053.10761.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096643053.10761.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Jules, If you're in Europe you can save Al's original website bandwidth by using the mirror located in france at : ftp://bitsavers.curie.fr/mirrors/www.bitsavers.org . Stephane On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:04:13 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Right, I've gone and forgotten who looks after bitsavers.org - I know > it's one of you, anyone fancy owning up? :-) > > cheers, > > Jules > > -- > I'm sorry for all the times I intentionally ducked underneath the sneeze > guard at a salad bar and sneezed on everything until I couldn't sneeze > any more. I have a problem. > -- Stephane Paris, France. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 1 19:18:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators Message-ID: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a PC? I know there are PDP11 cards that can be put in PCs, that's not what I am looking for. From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 19:30:34 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Free NewDOS/80 (Apparat, Inc) manual - no software. Message-ID: <20041002003034.4213.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I have what appears to be an original loose-leaf manual for NewDOS/80 (Apparat, Inc) for the TRS-80 model I computer system. Manual only, no software. Yours for shipping costs only - maybe $5.00. Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 1 19:35:59 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC 6330 & 6300 Message-ID: <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I can't seem to find any pictures on DEC 6330 or DEC 6300 computers via goggling. Anyone have a picture of these beasts? I may have a line on getting one of each.... Jay From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 1 19:51:06 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC 6330 & 6300 In-Reply-To: <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <415DFB7A.1020705@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I can't seem to find any pictures on DEC 6330 or DEC 6300 computers via > goggling. Anyone have a picture of these beasts? I may have a line on > getting one of each.... The 300 and 330 part of VAX6300 and VAX6330 refer to number & speed of the processors. If I'm not mistaken, they both live in the same type box. Rackmount VAX6000 cabinet: http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k.jpg.html http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k_2.jpg.html Plus you'd have the expansion cabinets - this chassis is just CPU & RAM. I understand that the rackmount VAX6000 is a lot less common than the full cabinets, but I've never seen the other. I *think* the cabinet model is about the size of a DEC7000: http://www.docsbox.net/warehouse/tn/DEC7330a.jpg.html http://www.docsbox.net/warehouse/tn/DEC7330b.jpg.html There's no size reference there, but that cabinet is about 5'8" tall, 36" deep, and about 40-42" wide. One of my friends will suffer apoplexy if you score a rackmount 6330.... Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 1 21:18:24 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a PC? > > I know there are PDP11 cards that can be put in PCs, that's not what I > am looking > for. > What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 binaries on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean something that is effectively a self-contained operating system, that will boot up and just be a PDP-11 emulator? Gordon. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 21:33:30 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC 6330 & 6300 Message-ID: >From: Doc Shipley >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: General@mdrconsult.com, "Discussion@mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and >Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: DEC 6330 & 6300 >Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:51:06 -0500 > > Rackmount VAX6000 cabinet: > >http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k.jpg.html > >http://www.docsbox.net/garage/tn/VAX6k_2.jpg.html > Damn, I guess I'll *have* to get a truck, now. :) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From oldcomp at cox.net Fri Oct 1 23:32:12 2004 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan Blackburn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200410011807.LAA11451@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410011807.LAA11451@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <415E2F4C.3030702@cox.net> >> >>So. What I hear you saying, is that they were the first to copy the >>digital group...! :) > > > Is it S-100? When did they first come out? > Dwight > No, not S-100. I was trying to be funny... Not so funny, huh? But dg did have most of that stuff in '75. And the diferrence between the Poly, dg, and the Intel MDS series, IMHO, is that Intel did not intend their machines for home/hobbyist use, etc. -Bryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 2 00:36:57 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a PC? > >I know there are PDP11 cards that can be put in PCs, that's not what >I am looking >for. To the best of my knowledge, every PDP-11 emulator/simulator is listed at http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html As far as I know, there isn't anything that runs directly on the PC hardware, they all require an OS. However, John Wilson mentioned something this week on the PDP-11 mailing list that sounds like he's planning on running directly on the PC HW in a future version. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 2 01:15:32 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: > > Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a PC? > What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 binaries > on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean something that is > effectively a self-contained operating system, that will boot up and just be a > PDP-11 emulator? An x86 runs x86 code, an '11 runs '11 code. To make the twain meet you need a simulator or an AWFUL LOT of transistors. What's wrong with one of the OS-loaded simulators? From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 2 01:17:31 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Shameless self promotion... was Poly88 on ebay In-Reply-To: <415E2F4C.3030702@cox.net> References: <200410011807.LAA11451@clulw009.amd.com> <415E2F4C.3030702@cox.net> Message-ID: SWTPC 6800 had only POWER and RESET on the front panel, period. MIKBUG (1K ROM) monitor had simple debugger, S1 loader and punch, tty routines, etc. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 2 04:07:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: spec sheet for a 8308 In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "spec sheet for a 8308" (Oct 1, 11:06) References: <200410011806.LAA11447@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10410021007.ZM14135@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 1 2004, 11:06, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > I'm looking for a spec sheet on a 8308. I think it > is part of the older National Semi series DM8308. > It might be a 8303 ( the schematic is not to clear ). > I think it is an inverting 8 channel bus tranceiver. > I need information on which way the drivers go with > the direction control and is the enable true or false. I think you mean DP8303 / DP8308? Both of these are 20-pin DIL 8-bit bidirectional transceivers; the DP8303 is inverting and the DP8308 is non-inverting. In both cases, the A port is pins 1-8, and the corresponding B port pins are 19-12. On the DP8303 (and DP8304, which is the non-invering equivalent) Chip Disable (active high to disable) is pin 9; pin 11 is Transmit/-Receive; "transmit" (pin 11 high) means A is input and B is output. On the DP8308 (and DP8307, the inverting equivalent), pin 9 is -Transmit and 11 is -Receive (both active low). On all of them, port A can sink up to 16mA and port B can sink up to 48mA. The DP7303/4/7/8 devices are extended-temperature range versions of DP8303/4/7/8. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 2 06:09:03 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC 6330 & 6300 In-Reply-To: <415DFB7A.1020705@mdrconsult.com> References: <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041002070543.02fecea0@192.168.0.1> At 08:51 PM 10/1/2004, you wrote: > One of my friends will suffer apoplexy if you score a rackmount 6330.... Can you get it on video to warn folks of the dangers of Classic Computing. That way there'll be more for the rest us! :-) Ed K. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Oct 2 06:55:51 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a PC? >> > As far as I know, there isn't anything that runs directly on the PC > hardware, they all require an OS. However, John Wilson mentioned > something this week on the PDP-11 mailing list that sounds like he's > planning on running directly on the PC HW in a future version. > You *could* write one that just booted up and became a PDP-11 emulator. It would be quite a lot of work - serial ports are easy to program, and you could get away with BIOS calls for disk handling maybe, but you could basically forget about any kind of network support. Far simpler to use one of the free Unixes. If you were really, really concerned about not letting anything else run on the machine, you could say something at a Linux kernel boot prompt like: boot: linux init=/usr/bin/simh and simh would run in single-user mode. This would, of course, be silly. Gordon. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 2 09:22:51 2004 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: C4P floppy issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041002142252.7835.qmail@web50508.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > (Use a 470 board for disk interfacing, but) > would then also have to re-do the monitor ROM, as > the boot loader code in the C4P monitor (according to rumor) > doesn't work anyway. Actually, the floppy circuit on the 505 is identical to the 470. Before the 505, all floppy machines had a 470 board. The bank-select jumpers from the ROM will have to be reconfigured, since either the floppy or ROM-basic boot section is mapped to 0000H. I think I have some docs on this on my web site, and would be willing to help out with advice or instructions. There is no conflict with the cassette port--it's just some analog electronics on the same serial port that the 505 has. In fact, the 540 video board also had a "cassette port", just the KCS modulation circuitry that hooked into a regular serial interface. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 2 10:04:04 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4D10008F-1484-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 1, 2004, at 7:18 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: >> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a >> PC? >> I know there are PDP11 cards that can be put in PCs, that's not what >> I am looking >> for. > > What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 > binaries on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean > something that is effectively a self-contained operating system, that > will boot up and just be a PDP-11 emulator? The latter, or perhaps it runs from DOS but it takes over all the ports, both serial ports would support terminals, and the parallel port would support a printer. Actually it would probably have to run over some OS so that it could emulate hard drives as files, since the normal PDP-11 hard drive was much smaller than todays 60gb monster. > > Gordon. > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 2 10:52:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 1, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: >>> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of >>> a PC? > >> What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 >> binaries >> on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean something >> that is >> effectively a self-contained operating system, that will boot up and >> just be a >> PDP-11 emulator? > > An x86 runs x86 code, an '11 runs '11 code. To make the twain > meet you need a simulator or an AWFUL LOT of transistors. What's > wrong with one of the OS-loaded simulators? > > Well, two things... I would like the simulator to be able to use the serial ports, and perhaps a serial service board and the parallel port for a printer. Also I would like the simulator to become available without user intervention (though I suppose I would still have to enter the 3 ^j s for RSTS to come up. Right now I login to my linux box as root, cd to the /opt/simh directory, run screen (so I can detach from the simulator once I get RSTS going) run simh with a startup file, type what I need to to bring RSTS up, then detach. What do you have to do with a real PDP-11 to get to the point where RSTS is running and people can login? In my ideal simulator, The screen and keyboard (and mouse) would be the operator console and keyboard/screen of KB0: (put the vga monitor into 50x80 and use the top half for the op console and the bottom 24x80 for vt100 (hazeltine?) emulation. (or even decwriter of some sort emulation where the lines off the screen are buffered and can be scrolled back to or dumped to the printer) If I wanted to make things more simple, I could have the 80x25 screen switch between KB0: and op console. I suppose a third mode would let me attach and detach files to simulated devices without stopping the simulation. I suppose I ask too much.. :^) From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 2 10:56:29 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <9FB25FC6-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 2, 2004, at 4:55 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of >>> a PC? >>> >> As far as I know, there isn't anything that runs directly on the PC >> hardware, they all require an OS. However, John Wilson mentioned >> something this week on the PDP-11 mailing list that sounds like he's >> planning on running directly on the PC HW in a future version. > > You *could* write one that just booted up and became a PDP-11 > emulator. It would be quite a lot of work - serial ports are easy to > program, and you could get away with BIOS calls for disk handling > maybe, but you could basically forget about any kind of network > support. Far simpler to use one of the free Unixes. If you were > really, really concerned about not letting anything else run on the > machine, you could say something at a Linux kernel boot prompt like: > boot: linux init=/usr/bin/simh > > and simh would run in single-user mode. This would, of course, be > silly. why silly? if it would work. > > Gordon. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 2 12:02:01 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC 6330 & 6300 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041002070543.02fecea0@192.168.0.1> References: <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <003401c4a817$e5cbcf30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5.2.0.9.2.20041002070543.02fecea0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <415EDF09.9010003@mdrconsult.com> Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 08:51 PM 10/1/2004, you wrote: > >> One of my friends will suffer apoplexy if you score a rackmount >> 6330.... > > > Can you get it on video to warn folks of the dangers of Classic Computing. > That way there'll be more for the rest us! :-) 8-) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 2 12:07:24 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: SIMH and cpuidle Message-ID: <415EE04C.3090004@mdrconsult.com> Are there any mechanisms to throttle simh's CPU usage? I'd use it a lot more, but frankly my 11/53 is *quieter* than my PC or my G5 are with simh running. Both machines have load-based fans (a _bunch_ of them). They're near-silent at normal loads, but simh jacks CPU usage to 100% even when it's idle. That heats things up and I have a turbine in my lap. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 2 12:39:34 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Oct 1, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > >>>> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of >>>> a PC? >> >> >>> What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 >>> binaries >>> on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean something >>> that is >>> effectively a self-contained operating system, that will boot up and >>> just be a >>> PDP-11 emulator? >> >> >> An x86 runs x86 code, an '11 runs '11 code. To make the twain >> meet you need a simulator or an AWFUL LOT of transistors. What's >> wrong with one of the OS-loaded simulators? >> >> > > Well, two things... I would like the simulator to be able to use the > serial ports, and perhaps a > serial service board and the parallel port for a printer. > > Also I would like the simulator to become available without user > intervention (though I suppose I would still have to enter the > 3 ^j s for RSTS to come up. What distribution of Linux are you running? Everything you want to do could be done by manipulation of the startup scripts on most Linux systems. I wouldn't go so far as calling it "trivial", but it won't be complicated at all. If I were going to design a drop-in install to do this I'd probably use Debian or Slackware, but whatever you're using should do fine. > Right now I login to my linux box as root, cd to the /opt/simh directory, > run screen (so I can detach from the simulator once I get RSTS going) > run simh with a startup file, type what I need to to bring RSTS up, then > detach. All this can be done either in root's startup scripts, so that it's automagic when you log in, or as root in the system scripts, so that root can attach to the sessions after login. > What do you have to do with a real PDP-11 to get to > the point where RSTS is running and people can login? I don't run RSTS, so I don't know. > In my ideal simulator, The screen and keyboard (and mouse) would be the > operator console and > keyboard/screen of KB0: (put the vga monitor into 50x80 and use the top > half for the op console > and the bottom 24x80 for vt100 (hazeltine?) emulation. (or even > decwriter of some sort emulation where > the lines off the screen are buffered and can be scrolled back to or > dumped to the printer) > > If I wanted to make things more simple, I could have the 80x25 screen > switch between KB0: and op console. The simplest solution here would be to run X with a very simple window manager, and autostart tiled xterms that attach to the running simh session. I _think_, but would have to look it up, that if you want them both visible you need not to run screen, or run two screen sessios if you need to detach. If you'd rather do text mode than X, why not use Linux's virtual consoles instead of screen? > I suppose a third mode would let me attach and detach files to simulated > devices without stopping the > simulation. > > I suppose I ask too much.. :^) Probably. ;) I don't have a lot of spare time right now, but if you'd like to pursue this as a project tag me off-list. If it works the way you want, we can document it and post it back here for comment and improvement. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 2 12:38:06 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Masscomp machines Message-ID: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone out there got any info on Masscomp machines (or own one)? I found one the other day at BP (in something of a sorry state) but info on the 'net seems pretty scarce. Rumour has it that they ran some flavour of real-time Unix, and that multi-cpu machines were available - that's about all the good ol' Internet has to offer, at least according to Google. This particular one doesn't have a model number on the front, but the sticker on the back implies it's a 'mwb515'. I'm particularly after a keyboard photo right now - I've got the system unit and monitor, but there's no keyboard with it. Hopefully it's either in the 'unknown keyboards' pile or has been accidentally tidied away in a different pile of hardware :-) Hmm, it presumably has a mouse too, which presumably plugs into the keyboard as I didn't see an obvious mouse port on the back of the machine. cheers, Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sat Oct 2 12:47:41 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Cromemco SpaceWar object code Message-ID: <000001c4a8a7$eac74830$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello, all: Does anyone have a functional copy of the Cromemco SpaceWar program that was in the Dazzler manual? I have a PDF of the manual, which has a hex dump of it, but OCRing it has proven to been a royal pain. Ideally what I need is a straight binary file. It would be about 3.3k long. If someone can assist with this, I'd appreciate it. I'm testing some new "hardware" in the Altair32 Emulator. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From r.stek at snet.net Sat Oct 2 13:10:46 2004 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Morrow S-100 MPZ80 CPU board ROM needed Message-ID: <200410021828.i92ISon9052805@huey.classiccmp.org> I am so close to having my Morrow Decision I working again, but.... I have 3 MPZ80 CPU cards, and I can boot up a 1 drive floppy based CP/M system but I really want to get a HD system working (BTW, thank you Allison for the ST-506's). However all three monitor ROMs are version 4.47 which is set up for the Micronix OS they also sold. Apparently there is some code in there which sets a different sector size for Micronix rather than for CP/M, and possibly has other differences as well. I am not interersted in running Micronix (even though I seem to have the complete (?) C source code for it). When I boot from a CP/M floppy, I can use the Morrow HD format program to format the HD, but it always gives me sector time out errors for each head during the verify phase (presumably because of whatever is in the 4.47 ROM). What I need is a copy of version 3.7 (it's on a 2732). Anyone out there with ROM I can copy or can copy one for me? Thanks. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 2 11:56:04 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2004 08:04:04 PDT." <4D10008F-1484-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200410021656.RAA25619@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > > On Oct 1, 2004, at 7:18 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Are there any PDP11 simulators that run "right down on the iron" of a > >> PC? > >> I know there are PDP11 cards that can be put in PCs, that's not what > >> I am looking > >> for. > > > > What do you mean "right down on the iron"? You couldn't run PDP-11 > > binaries on i386 hardware, if that's what you mean. Do you mean > > something that is effectively a self-contained operating system, that > > will boot up and just be a PDP-11 emulator? > > The latter, or perhaps it runs from DOS but it takes over all the > ports, both serial ports would support terminals, and the parallel port > would support a printer. That's exactly what I do with E11 (hobbyist version). It runs on an old 486DX4, headless, with an old terminal attached. My autoexec.bat ends with CD \E11V31 E11 so it boots straight into the PDP OS and from the terminal you can't really tell it's running on an emulator as you never see DOS. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 13:21:20 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators References: <200410021656.RAA25619@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <415EF1A0.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Stan Barr wrote: > That's exactly what I do with E11 (hobbyist version). It runs on an old > 486DX4, headless, with an old terminal attached. My autoexec.bat ends > with > > CD \E11V31 > E11 > > so it boots straight into the PDP OS and from the terminal you can't > really tell it's running on an emulator as you never see DOS. To the people who want a bootable system? Why don't you get one of the 'floppy' linux systems and build simh to run from that. Ben. From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 2 13:24:23 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:43 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <4D10008F-1484-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> <4D10008F-1484-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > What do you mean "right down on the iron"? > The latter, or perhaps it runs from DOS but it takes over all the ports, both > serial ports would support terminals, and the parallel port would support a > printer. Actually it would probably have to run over some OS so that it could > emulate hard drives as files, since the normal PDP-11 hard drive was much > smaller than todays 60gb monster. Hmm... do you mean, 'the entire computer becomes a PDP-11' meaning no PCish stuff left dangling around the edges? No WinXP or KDE or X window frames, escape keys, etc visible? No linux/windows/etc hiding just behind a Control-C or CONTROL-ALT-DELETE? If so I bet with some not-unreasonable effort you could coerce a *nix system running a simulator into doing that, certainly more easily than M$. DOS too, but it provides no real OS services (memory management, I/O, etc). There are lots of small-scale linux and unix (freebsd, for example) that you can easily scale down to the essentials, in fact quite small, and still have: good disk/filesystem, real I/O, memory management (virtual mem), scheduling, etc etc... Also the *nix's don't inherently consume resources like M$ products do (daemons and provided services can, of course, but the beauty is you can remove them all). Probably very difficult to completely hide, and likely not worth the effort, would be hardware errors/failures, eg. CPU overheat, disk drive hardware failure, etc, but once your hardware fails, well the game's over anyways, and the *nix OSs do a better job than most. From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Oct 2 13:25:29 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Need help in Reno Area today! Message-ID: <415E9029.20704.E1621CC@localhost> Hi Folks, I'm helping a friend install an art exhibition at Truckee Meadows Community College in Reno, NV. One of the pieces is run by a 386 computer running MS-DOS, it's been in storage for three years, and its CMOS data is gone. Need to borrow a monochrome monitor and an AT-type keyboard with the DIN rather than PS/2 connector, just for an hour to get it working again (once it's set up it runs without them). As an alternative to the mono monitor, an ISA-bus VGA adapter would be just as good. Is there anyone in the area who could help? Could you email me directly (brian@quarterbyte.com)? I'll check email periodically today. Thanks! Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 2 13:29:17 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Cromemco SpaceWar object code In-Reply-To: <000001c4a8a7$eac74830$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <000001c4a8a7$eac74830$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a functional copy of the Cromemco SpaceWar program > that was in the Dazzler manual? I have a PDF of the manual, which has a hex > dump of it, but OCRing it has proven to been a royal pain. OCR! PDF! Binary! Why when I was a kid... we had to chew tree bark to make the paper to print our hex dumps on! Wait, there was a thread for this already... Umm, why not just type it in? I know what a pain that is (believe me...) but it would probably take less time than searching for solutions, and it would add to the Cool Factor when you post it online for others... :-) I bet you could have it typed in and running in < 2 hours. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 2 13:33:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > If you'd rather do text mode than X, why not use Linux's virtual >consoles instead of screen? Screen is the ideal way to run SIMH or E11, by running under screen you can ssh into the system and connect to screen. You don't actually have to have physical access to the system to do stuff with the emulator. Also, if you do have physical access you can disconnect screen and log out of the system. Or, you can set it up some that SIMH is run under screen as part of the system startup (only good for OS's that don't require you to answer prompts). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 2 13:44:07 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <0AE08ED3-14A3-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 2, 2004, at 10:39 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > All this can be done either in root's startup scripts, so that it's > automagic when you log in, or as root in the system scripts, so that > root can attach to the sessions after login. I suppose the next thing to try is running screen (command pdp11) as some part of init.d that should get the simulator started, disks attached and the boot process begun... running under screen pdp would run until it needed input. (the date/time or ^j ) I am running redhat 7.0 > >> What do you have to do with a real PDP-11 to get to >> the point where RSTS is running and people can login? > > I don't run RSTS, so I don't know. > >> In my ideal simulator, The screen and keyboard (and mouse) would be >> the operator console and >> keyboard/screen of KB0: (put the vga monitor into 50x80 and use the >> top half for the op console >> and the bottom 24x80 for vt100 (hazeltine?) emulation. (or even >> decwriter of some sort emulation where >> the lines off the screen are buffered and can be scrolled back to or >> dumped to the printer) >> If I wanted to make things more simple, I could have the 80x25 screen >> switch between KB0: and op console. > > The simplest solution here would be to run X with a very simple > window manager, and autostart tiled xterms that attach to the running > simh session. I _think_, but would have to look it up, that if you > want them both visible you need not to run screen, or run two screen > sessios if you need to detach. > > If you'd rather do text mode than X, why not use Linux's virtual > consoles instead of screen? > >> I suppose a third mode would let me attach and detach files to >> simulated devices without stopping the >> simulation. simh won't let me do that, I have to stop the simulator to change things.. including detaching the print file and attaching a new one so I can spool the old.. I tried attaching the print file to /dev/lp0 but that didn't work. >> I suppose I ask too much.. :^) > > Probably. ;) > > I don't have a lot of spare time right now, but if you'd like to > pursue this as a project tag me off-list. If it works the way you > want, we can document it and post it back here for comment and > improvement. > > > Doc > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 2 13:54:36 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:21:20 MDT." <415EF1A0.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200410021854.TAA27693@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ben franchuk said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > > That's exactly what I do with E11 (hobbyist version). It runs on an old > > 486DX4, headless, with an old terminal attached. My autoexec.bat ends > > with > > > > CD \E11V31 > > E11 > > > > so it boots straight into the PDP OS and from the terminal you can't > > really tell it's running on an emulator as you never see DOS. > > To the people who want a bootable system? > Why don't you get one of the 'floppy' linux systems and build simh > to run from that. I run simh/Linux on another machine....(and I have a Micro 11/73...) The 486/E11 combo makes a convincing demo to show people what 1970s computing looked like to a user, that's what I intended it for. The computer is tucked out of sight. Actually it's on the other side of the room - I didn't want to hide the blinkenlites :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From arlen at acm.org Sat Oct 2 13:59:32 2004 From: arlen at acm.org (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Morrow S-100 MPZ80 CPU board ROM needed In-Reply-To: <200410021828.i92ISon9052805@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: on 2/10/04 2:10 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > format the HD, but it always gives me sector time out errors for each head > during the verify phase (presumably because of whatever is in the 4.47 ROM). > What I need is a copy of version 3.7 (it's on a 2732). > > Anyone out there with ROM I can copy or can copy one for me? Bob, I'm sure I have one of these boards in storage. I'll go delve in the basement to see what version I have. Arlen -- Arlen Michaels arlen@acm.org From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 2 14:13:08 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:21:20 MDT." <415EF1A0.9040906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ben franchuk said: > Why don't you get one of the 'floppy' linux systems and build simh > to run from that. Also AFAIK simh won't support a real console terrminal on a serial port, which was part of my requirement. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From mcwood at t-online.de Sat Oct 2 14:39:46 2004 From: mcwood at t-online.de (marc holz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Any Convexs user out there ? Message-ID: Hi, I just picked up a Convex C220 and wonder who else might have such a beast at home. Unfortunately I'm lacking the documentation and operating system (I think it is was called ConvexOS) but it is still very cool to see that machine. Lots of IPI and SMD drives, heavy duty power supplies. If some could help me with any related Convex material especially any Operating & Maintenance manuals - that would be very nice. Cheers, Marc From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Oct 2 15:21:21 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: FI: PDP/EBAY/EMAIL Message-ID: The following exchange has just taken place regarding the PDP-8 items just listed on e-bay. Though some people here might be interested.. ----- Original Message ----- From: dvcorbin@optonline.net To: burgyman41@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 8:30 AM Subject: Question for item #5128002772 - DEC PDP-8 COMPUTER CHASSIS/RACK with POWER SUPPLY It appears that you are "parting out" some model of CNC machine (possibly a punch). I am really questioning why the computer (PDP-8) was not listed as a single item (which typically can be placed back into operation). When the items are split like this it often indicates that there was something seriously worng with the unit as a whole, this MAY indicate that many of the partes themselves are damaged. Any information or history gladly appreciated. _____ From: Bill [mailto:burgyman41@bellsouth.net] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 10:15 AM To: dvcorbin@optonline.net Subject: Re: Question for item #5128002772 - DEC PDP-8 COMPUTER CHASSIS/RACK with POWER SUPPLY Yes, this particular PDP-8 was removed from a CNC machine tool. A K&T horizontal machining center to be exact. It had been purchased by my customer, a machine shop, from one of his customers, a large company that was downsizing. Some where in the transition from one to the other I am told, part of the system software and most of the documentation was lost. After some period of frustration at not being able to use the machine they contacted us to quote on retrofiting it with a conventional CNC control. We removed the PDP-8 and replaced it with a Fagor model 8050M and set the old computer on a shelf in our warehouse where it sat for about 10 years until I closed the business and must now dispose of many items that I didn't have the heart to throw away. I decided to sell it in three separate groups of parts after observing the selling activity of other DEC items on ebay. Without a front panel my feeling is that it's attraction as a complete computer would be limited. As to someone putting it back in service after all these years, why would anyone want to do that? Hope I answered your concerns, Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Thanks for the response. Believe it or not, there are a significant number of people dedicated to the restoration (and operation) of the older computers, not just DEC/PDP stuff, but old IBM, Honeywell, Hewlett Packard, and all of the rest. There are also a number of musuems that are dedicated to this (their budgets are very limited, but many donations are tax deductable!). I am award that many CNC machines did not have the front panel (although a number that used PDP-8/M's DID!). While the individual parts are usefully as spares and replacements, too many of them end up being turned into "ART" and destroyed from a restoration point of view. Also many of the machines (not so much the PDP-8) required various tweaks to the boards to get them to play together or work in a specific backplane. This is why a complete (or near complete system is much more desirable). I see that you are closing your shop, but I hope you will pass this information on to ANYONE who may have access to old computer and electronic equipment. Feel free to use me as a point of contact, or I can provide the names of collectors pretty much anywhere in the world [including one in Antartica!] Earier this year I was at a convention [Vintage Computer Festival] where one of the original developer of the original developers of the Univac was giving a presentation [he is over 80]. It turns out that hist wife and he were selling their house, and it looked like all of his notebooks, and other documentation from the 1950's thru the 1970's was going to be "dumpstered". Fortunately arrangements were made with a computer musuem in California [the conference was in Boston!] to archive all of this ir-replacable stuff. >From a sellers point of view, there is limited cash value. As I indicated earlier most of the interested parties are either individuals or musuems running on very tight budgets. I do find it intersting that most people understand the collecting and restoration of items such as old cars, but are very suprised to find that there are people interested in vintage computers. Good luck in your sale, I hope this message will provide some valuable information, and you can help prevent other classic hardware [and even more DOCUMENTATION and SOFTWARE] from going to the scrappers, or straight to the dumps. David V. Corbin Sayville, NY 1-632-244-8487 Question about your item Dear techseller41, Please respond to the question on eBay by clicking the button below. You'll have the option to display your response directly on the listing. Respond Now Item # Item Title Listing end date 5128002772 DEC PDP-8 COMPUTER CHASSIS/RACK with POWER SUPPLY Oct-08-04 Thank you, dvcorbin8ioy Need help calculating shipping cost? Use the Shipping Calculator. Is this message an offer to buy your item directly through email without bidding on and winning the item on eBay? These "off eBay" transactions violate eBay policy and may be unsafe. You can click here to report it. Learn more about safe trading. _____ eBay treats your personal information with the utmost care, and our Privacy Policy is designed to protect you and your information. eBay will never ask their users for personal information, such as bank account numbers, credit card numbers, pin numbers, passwords, or Social Security numbers in an email. For more information on how to protect your eBay password and your account, please visit User Account Protection. This eBay notice was sent to burgyman41@bellsouth.net based on your eBay account preferences and in accordance with our Privacy Policy. To change your notification preferences, click here. If you would like to receive this email in text format, click here. Copyright C 2004 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 2 16:20:23 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Cromemco SpaceWar object code In-Reply-To: "Richard A. Cini" "Cromemco SpaceWar object code" (Oct 2, 13:47) References: <000001c4a8a7$eac74830$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <10410022220.ZM14676@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 2 2004, 13:47, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a functional copy of the Cromemco SpaceWar program > that was in the Dazzler manual? I have a PDF of the manual, which has a hex > dump of it, but OCRing it has proven to been a royal pain. I stha t PDF available anywhere? I have a Dazzler but no manual. > Ideally what I need is a straight binary file. It would be about > 3.3k long. If someone can assist with this, I'd appreciate it. If OCR is a pain (and I can well believe that) why not just retype it? Even though it's a bit tedious, and would need careful checking, 3.3K isn't too bad, and it's probably quicker than fixing a poor OCR. I know; I was the person who re-typed the 60K of the original TREK73 from some pretty awful photocopies, when no machine-readable version could be found. I set it up on a copy stand beside my machine, and typed half-hour or one-hour stints in the evenings when I had nothing much better to do, for a couple of weeks. 3.3K wouldn't take long, even if it is hex. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 2 16:25:41 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: FI: PDP/EBAY/EMAIL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041002171922.02f2ce60@192.168.0.1> At 04:21 PM 10/2/2004, you wrote: >The following exchange has just taken place regarding the PDP-8 items just >listed on e-bay. Though some people here might be interested.. I saw the same thing but noted that it had no front panel. What are you complaining about? He's done serious collectors a favor. The guy thinks he'll get more money that way. Hey, that's the American way, though I think he's wrong. If you want to put an 8 together, the parts will likely go for a lot less than a whole box, even sans the front panel. I bought a stack of 8A boards last week for $100. The last PDP8 that sold on eBay was over $1300 IIRC. Putting a whole (even without front panel) PDP8 on eBay would make a real bidding war and drive the price way up. You'd have a lot of casual lunk heads bidding on it. With pieces, only someone knowledgeable will be interested in bidding. The problem with parting it out is if you get 2 of the 3 parts needed, and then some nitwit bids the world on the 3rd piece you're SOL. I think that happened to someone on the list recently bidding on some PDP8 parts. Should make things interesting. :-) Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 2 16:33:47 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Double postings Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041002173106.0ab41c20@192.168.0.1> Just noted that my reply to Dave Corbins post on PDP8 emails, went to the list AND to Dave Corbin separately. Some emails I get from this list have Reply To: "cctalk" . Others include Reply To: "cctalk" and person who posted it also. ??? Ed K. From arlen at acm.org Sat Oct 2 17:13:15 2004 From: arlen at acm.org (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Morrow S-100 MPZ80 CPU board ROM needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 2/10/04 2:59 PM, Arlen Michaels wrote: > on 2/10/04 2:10 PM, Robert Stek wrote: > >> format the HD, but it always gives me sector time out errors for each head >> during the verify phase (presumably because of whatever is in the 4.47 ROM). >> What I need is a copy of version 3.7 (it's on a 2732). >> >> Anyone out there with ROM I can copy or can copy one for me? > > Bob, > > I'm sure I have one of these boards in storage. I'll go delve in the > basement to see what version I have. > > Arlen Drat, it turns out mine is a v4.47 too. Sorry, Bob. Arlen -- Arlen Michaels arlen@acm.org From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Oct 2 17:46:49 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <9FB25FC6-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> <9FB25FC6-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415F2FD9.4010209@gjcp.net> Ron Hudson wrote: >> and simh would run in single-user mode. This would, of course, be silly. > > > why silly? if it would work. > Because none of the userspace daemons would be running. Saying "init=/bin/sh" is a great way to get the root filesystem and a command prompt and *nothing* else - the init scripts are never run, so no other filesystems are mounted, no kernel modules are loaded, nothing like that. The kernel loads, brings the console up to a known state, and then forks off to the shell. Normally, of course, it would fork init, which would then read inittab and then the startup scripts. Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 2 18:03:33 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 02 October 2004 14:13, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > ben franchuk said: > > Why don't you get one of the 'floppy' linux systems and build simh > > to run from that. > > Also AFAIK simh won't support a real console terrminal on a serial > port, which was part of my requirement. Sure it will, just start it like: getty -in -l /usr/bin/pdp11 ttyS0 9600 vt100 (getty syntax will vary depending on the getty that's installed on your machine. The syntax above works with "agetty" as distributed with Debian GNU/Linux). Or you can just run a normal getty on your serial port, and log into the *nix via the serial port and run simh. So, if you felt creative, you could do: getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/pdp11-script.sh ttyS0 9600 vt100 sleep 10 # or whatever you feel like getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS1 9600 vt100 sleep 1 getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS2 9600 vt100 sleep 1 getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS3 9600 vt100 sleep 1 getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS4 9600 vt100 sleep 1 # repeat as necessary And have a pdp11-script.sh which sets up and runs simh appropriately, and a telnet-script.sh like: #!/bin/sh telnet localhost 10000 ...assuming that you have port 10000 as the TCP port you gave to simh for connections to your simulated DZ11. I'm tempted to cook up a small Linux/simh image that'll do this. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 2 18:16:51 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Can anyone id this? Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041002191651.0093d8e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anyone know what this is? I bought two of them today. They're aluminium boxes about 9" tall, 4" wide and 1 1/2" thick. They have a four digit LED display and a hex keypad on the front. On the LH side is a rotory switch to set the BAUD rate (110 to 9600). Also a pushbutton labeled INS and a jack labeled "remote INS". (Any guesses what INS means?) On the RH side is a reset switch and a DB-25F connector. On the bottom of the front panel are four rocker switches labeled "Diag" and "1", "2" and "3" with "TEST" above the 1, 2 and 3 switches. On the back is a label that says "Western Union Information Systems", "TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel", "Type Number 900012/IDP 01 995922", the unit serial number and "Made in USA". There's a place for the date but, unfortunately, it's blank. On the top is a 50 pin ribbon cable header. When I got these they had a ribbon cable connecting both units together but I doubt that they're supposed to be used that way. Note that there's no OFF/ON switch or power connector on thse. They must get their power from the unit under test. BTW TWX means teletypewriter exchange service but no idea what TWX V means. Based on this and the Western Union logo I'm guessing/hoping that these are made for testing teletypes. Joe From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 2 21:54:52 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Cromemco SpaceWar object code Message-ID: <20041003025452.D1F123E31@spies.com> > Does anyone have a functional copy of the Cromemco SpaceWar program http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Cromemco/paperTapes/ From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 2 22:50:30 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5EA00B1A-14EF-11D9-BDC5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 2, 2004, at 4:03 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 02 October 2004 14:13, Stan Barr wrote: >> Hi, >> >> ben franchuk said: >>> Why don't you get one of the 'floppy' linux systems and build simh >>> to run from that. Will simh fit on a floppy? Surely the disk images won't. >> >> Also AFAIK simh won't support a real console terrminal on a serial >> port, which was part of my requirement. > > Sure it will, just start it like: > > getty -in -l /usr/bin/pdp11 ttyS0 9600 vt100 > > (getty syntax will vary depending on the getty that's installed on your > machine. The syntax above works with "agetty" as distributed with > Debian GNU/Linux). > > Or you can just run a normal getty on your serial port, and log into > the > *nix via the serial port and run simh. > > So, if you felt creative, you could do: > > getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/pdp11-script.sh ttyS0 9600 vt100 > sleep 10 # or whatever you feel like > getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS1 9600 vt100 > sleep 1 > getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS2 9600 vt100 > sleep 1 > getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS3 9600 vt100 > sleep 1 > getty -in -l /usr/local/bin/telnet-script.sh ttyS4 9600 vt100 > sleep 1 > # repeat as necessary > > And have a pdp11-script.sh which sets up and runs simh appropriately, > and a telnet-script.sh like: > > #!/bin/sh > telnet localhost 10000 > > ...assuming that you have port 10000 as the TCP port you gave to simh > for connections to your simulated DZ11. If you are not running a normal telnet daemon, I wonder if you could tell simh to take port 20(? telnet's normal port) It would probably be ok just to have simh use the console port, or to have it start with screen in the background ( KB0: would then be "secure" behind a root login ) Hmmm, fun. > > I'm tempted to cook up a small Linux/simh image that'll do this. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 23:23:35 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators References: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5EA00B1A-14EF-11D9-BDC5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <415F7EC7.5080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Ron Hudson wrote: > Will simh fit on a floppy? Surely the disk images won't. I do know the mini versions of linux, use a older and smaller version of the C compiler. Other than network bindings I can't see the code being that large. You may have to remove some things from the mini linux but that is part of the fun. Ben. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Oct 3 09:10:50 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Mine too. They self-destruct long before the head wears out :-) Always > > keep a backup DAT drive handy for your backup tapes... ;-) > > Always keep a backup *Tape Drive* or *two* around to read your backup tapes > :^) Especially since I suspect most of us are using old tape drives for our > backups, rather than brand new drives. On that subject, can anyone shed light on what appears to be a common failure mode for DLT7000 drives? I have (2) which misbehave in the same manner. At powerup, the head recalibrates (bzzzzzttt), the door lock solenoid activates and the green LED on the bottom right lights. However, all the density and tape type LEDS on the left simply flash in sync approx. 2x per second. An inserted tape will load, but that's all she wrote. No track calibration, no shoeshine - nothing. Exact same symptoms on both units. One was working until the power was accidently interrupted in the midst of a backup. The second was a $5.00 swap-meet item picked up in the hope of yielding parts to get the first working . Steve From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 3 09:34:09 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415F7EC7.5080702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5EA00B1A-14EF-11D9-BDC5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415F7EC7.5080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >Ron Hudson wrote: >>Will simh fit on a floppy? Surely the disk images won't. >I do know the mini versions of linux, use a older and smaller version >of the C compiler. Other than network bindings I can't see the code >being that large. You may have to remove some things from the mini >linux but that is part of the fun. >Ben. About all you'd be able to run would be RT-11 if you tried to fit Linux, SIMH, and a disk image all on a floppy. You could always boot from a CD, and mount a USB drive containing your disk images :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 3 09:40:39 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: >On that subject, can anyone shed light on what appears to be a common >failure mode for DLT7000 drives? I have (2) which misbehave in the same >manner. At powerup, the head recalibrates (bzzzzzttt), the door lock >solenoid activates and the green LED on the bottom right lights. >However, all the density and tape type LEDS on the left simply flash in >sync approx. 2x per second. An inserted tape will load, but that's all >she wrote. No track calibration, no shoeshine - nothing. Exact same >symptoms on both units. > >One was working until the power was accidently interrupted in the midst of >a backup. The second was a $5.00 swap-meet item picked up in the hope of >yielding parts to get the first working . I don't happen to have the manual handy, but have the drives swallowed the tape leader? It's a bit of a pain in the neck to restring the leader on a DLT7000 compared to a TK50, but it's still not that hard. When you look in the drive, you should see something that looks like the bottom end of the following: http://zane.brouhaha.com/~healyzh/TK50-Leader.gif Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 10:40:10 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: References: <200410021913.UAA28073@citadel.metropolis.local> <200410021803.34293.pat@computer-refuge.org> <5EA00B1A-14EF-11D9-BDC5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415F7EC7.5080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <82C4F944-1552-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 3, 2004, at 7:34 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Ron Hudson wrote: >>> Will simh fit on a floppy? Surely the disk images won't. >> I do know the mini versions of linux, use a older and smaller version >> of the C compiler. Other than network bindings I can't see the code >> being that large. You may have to remove some things from the mini >> linux but that is part of the fun. >> Ben. > > About all you'd be able to run would be RT-11 if you tried to fit > Linux, SIMH, and a disk image all on a floppy. > > You could always boot from a CD, and mount a USB drive containing your > disk images :^) > > Zane > pdp11 in a "pen" drive :^) ( I know most computers won't boot from a usb pen drive ) What is RT-11 like? I have only used RSTS. > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 3 10:57:28 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:44 2005 Subject: Can anyone id this? Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041002191651.0093d8e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041002191651.0093d8e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200410030857280633.5D20A794@192.168.42.129> Bear with me... It has been decades... But I used to work for Western Union repairing TWX, Telex, and similar beasties. I remember those boxes, if a bit vaguely. I seem to recall that they were built for the specific purpose of testing and exercising the Bell data sets (the low-speed 110-baud modems) that were built into every TWX machine. I believe they have some character or pattern-generation capability. Beyond that, I'm pretty much lost. Been too long since I've used one. I'd be curious to know what you find out about them, as I know WU dumped their field service division years ago. Oh, I think INS means 'INSERT.' Happy hunting. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 02-Oct-04 at 19:16 Joe R. wrote: >Anyone know what this is? I bought two of them today. They're aluminium >boxes about 9" tall, 4" wide and 1 1/2" thick. They have a four digit LED >display and a hex keypad on the front. On the LH side is a rotory switch to >set the BAUD rate (110 to 9600). Also a pushbutton labeled INS and a jack -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From waisun.chia at hp.com Fri Oct 1 02:38:08 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:45 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <20060211044314.29D4273029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20060211044314.29D4273029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <415D0960.7090908@hp.com> Did the use of your self-modifying code in the past propelled you to the future from where you're sending us mail in the present? :-) Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great ben franchuk once stated: > >> I have yet to see a good use for self-modifying code. Other than >>subroutines and interupts placing data into a code segement the only >>self modifying code I have seen was for the 8088. > > > Back when I took Assembly langauge (8086) at college, I used > self-modifying code in one of the assignments (the teacher and I didn't get > along and this was my attempt at getting a "rise" out of the teacher). The > assignment was to sort a list of numbers in ascending or descending order > (depending upon user input) so I simply changed the jump instruction after > the compare in the sort routine. It saved either two copies of the routine > (differing in only a single instruction), a complicated logical nest in the > middle of a sort routine, or using a callback routine. > > As far as I can recall, that was the *only* time I've ever done > self-modifying code. > > -spc (And it seemed like a good reason at the time ... ) > > > From sjhill at realitydiluted.com Fri Oct 1 08:31:34 2004 From: sjhill at realitydiluted.com (sjhill@realitydiluted.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: SGI stuff... Message-ID: Greetings. I saw from an old post back in Aug 21, 2003 that you had a bunch of IRIX CDs and other SGI stuff. Do you still have the media left, the manuals or Pipeline magazines? Thanks. -Steve From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Fri Oct 1 15:46:34 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: University of Michigan Property Depot report Message-ID: <200410012046.QAA26511@ss10.danlan.com> |Also, a full-length ISA card with a bunch |of NCR chips, and the back half covered with a RF shield. The only connector |was a F-type screw connector (CATV style) which leads me to belive it's an |old TV tuner card, but I don't think NCR is known for multimedia chipsets, |and the RF shielded area was at the back of the card instead of right next |to the connector. Any ideas? Broadband Ethernet? Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From sieler at allegro.com Fri Oct 1 19:14:07 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: HP3000/922, disk cabinet at Mich. St. U. Salvage In-Reply-To: References: <20040921202634.037f12d1@arrakis> Message-ID: <415D905F.28685.18237F9@localhost> Re: > My understanding is that install images are heavily customized per machine > at the secret HP MPE bunker, although someone will surely correct me if > wrong. A CSLT would be the best install image, but you obviously don't > have one. No, they're *much* less customized than on most machines. Indeed, one should be able to boot just about any PA-RISC HP 3000 from a CSLT made from any other PA-RISC HP 3000 ... although you might have know enough to get past radical differences in I/O configuration (which is possible to do!) :) That said, "CSLT" stands for "Customized System Load Tape" ... so you might be getting software you (a) don't want; and (b) didn't pay for. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From david at dynamicconcepts.us Sat Oct 2 16:58:47 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Emulation.... Message-ID: Thinking about the recent posts on "Emulating right down to the Iron"..and I had an idea, that I first thought was completely crazy, but am now thinking that it may be only slightly nuts.... People have successfully modeled some of the processors using current technology such as FPGA's. What if someone used and FPGA or similar and produced a processor capable of running the instruction set of a specific machine, but was compatible at the PIN (and other HW considerations) of a x86. A standard motherboard (obviously with a completely vustom BIOS) and standard hardware could then be used. Depending on what type of HAL was implemented their might be the need for some custom drivers at the emulated OS level. But this would provide a platform that used current hardware (easy, available, cheap) without any additional layers.... As I said, I thought I was completly wacko when the idea first came up, but I wanted to get the lists thoughts.... From mbg at TheWorld.com Sat Oct 2 17:44:34 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives Message-ID: <200410022244.SAA1855398@shell.TheWorld.com> I was contacted recently someone at WPI who had been approached about reading an old DECtape. They no longer have the DEC-10 at WPI, so need to find someone with working DECtapes who might be able to read the tape... If anyone has a working DECtape drive on their system, please let me know so I can pass it on... Megan From nancy at randyray.com Sun Oct 3 01:19:03 2004 From: nancy at randyray.com (Nancy B. Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: LF Heathkit H8 original software Message-ID: <000501c4a910$e1f3f910$9101a8c0@NBR> Dave, I saw your note on some forum asking about Heathkit H8 software. I, too, have an old H8. I built it in the mid 70s. Unfortunately I didn't keep any of the old software on cassette. Did you find someone that would get you copies of any of the apps? I'd be interested in paying for copies as I am trying to get mine back up and running. I am especially interested in Basic. Please reply to me personal email randy@randyray.com Thanks, Randy From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 3 02:17:13 2004 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Anyone selling 5.25" blank Apple or Atari disks? In-Reply-To: <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> References: <200409300012.i8U0CWx25528@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <4906.65.123.179.133.1096554652.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <415FA779.5070407@oldskool.org> ghldbrd@ccp.com wrote: > I got some NOS from a local computer dealer for nothing, but I'm hanging > on to them for dear life. You might try checking some of the smaller > office supply outfits and/or Goodwill/Salvaation Army stores. These are > turning into very rare items now. DSDD 5.25" disks are rare? Seriously? Checking ebay, I guess I only see two auctions (with http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5126496848&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW being the only sane one) but I never thought they were rare... I mean, I've got hundreds that I don't know what to do with. Maybe I should start selling them :-) To the person who wanted ten or so to play with: I have much Apple II disks that were found dumpster-diving at a school; I can mail you ten that may be Apple II formatted and have who knows what on them. Let me know. -- Jim Leonard (trixter@oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 3 10:31:51 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Floppy disks wanted - 5" hard sector In-Reply-To: <200410031213.i93CD3nD058569@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200410031531.i93FVWIa011049@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Anyone know of a source of some inexpensive 5.25" hard sector diskettes (as used in North Star and some Heathkit computers - 10 sectors)? From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 3 11:42:14 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <0AE08ED3-14A3-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E0FF0.8030007@gjcp.net> <0B570DCC-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415EE7D6.1030302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041003123405.04d0a1d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ron Hudson may have mentioned these words: >simh won't let me do that, I have to stop the simulator to change things.. >including detaching the >print file and attaching a new one so I can spool the old.. I tried >attaching the print file to /dev/lp0 but that didn't work. Did you try rerouting the output thru what's called a FIFO? It's similar to a pipe (|) from the command line, but it's linked into the filesystem. The only caveat that I remember (I've not used them much) is they're only one way, so you'll need two pipes for 2-way communication. Gee, think you could spare a couple of inodes??? ;-P Here's a good page about 'em: http://linux.about.com/library/cmd/blcmdl4_fifo.htm Googling for "linux FIFO" brings many others... ;-) =-=-=-= and Stan Barr may have mentioned these words: > Also AFAIK simh won't support a real console terrminal on a serial port, > which was part of my requirement. Isn't there a way to re-route the serial port to 'console' invisibly in Linux? I *thought* there was, but I've never done it... Maybe this would help... http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Remote-Serial-Console-HOWTO/ Anyway, I hope it helps, but I've never run simh, so I don't know the particulars of it... Laterz! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 3 13:04:52 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Can anyone id this? Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel References: <3.0.6.32.20041002191651.0093d8e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200410030857280633.5D20A794@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <001f01c4a973$7b689080$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Lane" To: Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Can anyone id this? Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel > Bear with me... It has been decades... But I used to work for Western Union repairing TWX, Telex, and similar beasties. > > I remember those boxes, if a bit vaguely. I seem to recall that they were built for the specific purpose of testing and exercising the Bell data sets (the low-speed 110-baud modems) that were built into every TWX machine. I believe they have some character or pattern-generation capability. >From my time in the dutch PTT, I would say that they had at least an RYRYRYRY testing capability. Explanation for the unwashed masses : this was the closest one could get to an alternating bit-pattern, at least on 5-bit systems. I still have a metal plate somehwere, where all Baudot codes are engraved. The letters G H and J were used for various purposes, depening on the country. In Holland, they had some funny "characters" like a square, a square with a slash through it, and a square with a hyphen trough it. In Denmark, they were used for the characters ? ? and ? Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From ohh at drizzle.com Sun Oct 3 13:09:26 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: <200410022244.SAA1855398@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: Megan wrote thus: > I was contacted recently someone at WPI who had been approached > about reading an old DECtape. They no longer have the DEC-10 > at WPI, so need to find someone with working DECtapes who might > be able to read the tape... > > If anyone has a working DECtape drive on their system, please > let me know so I can pass it on... If you don't find somebody closer, you could try Max Burnet in Australia (http://www.acms.org.au/burnet-max.shtml). He has an extraordinary collection of DEC machines, arguably the best in the world, and - as this web-page puts it - "plans to use his museum collection to provide for porting of old media" along with its other historical and educational uses. He's also a hell of a nice guy, which certainly provides many points in his favor. :) :) -O.- From acme at gbronline.com Sun Oct 3 13:15:43 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Survived another one! References: <3.0.6.32.20040927130236.008f9c40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00d801c4a975$00e211e0$f64f0945@thegoodw> Glad you made it through okay, Joe. I, too, survived, but I'm really starting to lose my sense of humor about these hurricanes. This time we had damage to our roof (at home), and during the storm the water rose around our back door and started blowing underneath the door and into the room where my classic machines live. I had to scramble to get everything to dry space, but it looks like there were no casualties (except for the carpet). No loss of electricity this time, though. Again, the upside: we are still alive. Others may be shopping for chainsaws, but I'm scoping out U-Haul trucks. Later -- Glen 0/0 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:02 PM Subject: Survived another one! > Well Hurricane Jeanne has come and gone. This is the fourth hurricane in > 6 weeks and the third that's gone through my area. The DEC and intel stuff > sitting outside STILL hasn't blown away! Not too much damage this time, for > the most part everything that could be torn up was destroyed in the > previous storms. However my roof shingles are finally starting to go. The > power companies are getting GOOD at this. This time they had the power back > on the same day! I think there's going to be lots of houses (or vacant > lots!) for sale in Florida real soon. I went to Home Depot this morning > and it was packed with people buying roofing materials and other repair > items. A lot of them also had "Home for Sale" signs in their carts! > > I haven't heard from Glen. I know he was without power for five then > seven days from the two previous storms and I think he's about ready to > leave the state. > > Joe > From acme at gbronline.com Sun Oct 3 13:19:55 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Survived another one! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927144306.03b59ea8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <00fb01c4a975$96b182a0$f64f0945@thegoodw> Hey, Merch, thanks for the offer. I think we're looking for someplace with a little less snow, though . . . Glen 0/0 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Survived another one! > Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: > > Well Hurricane Jeanne has come and gone. This is the fourth hurricane in > >6 weeks and the third that's gone through my area. The DEC and intel stuff > >sitting outside STILL hasn't blown away! Not too much damage this time, for > >the most part everything that could be torn up was destroyed in the > >previous storms. However my roof shingles are finally starting to go. The > >power companies are getting GOOD at this. This time they had the power back > >on the same day! I think there's going to be lots of houses (or vacant > >lots!) for sale in Florida real soon. I went to Home Depot this morning > >and it was packed with people buying roofing materials and other repair > >items. A lot of them also had "Home for Sale" signs in their carts! > > Can ya blame 'em? > > > I haven't heard from Glen. I know he was without power for five then > >seven days from the two previous storms and I think he's about ready to > >leave the state. > > Hopefully he keeps in touch (when he can) -- Depending on how far north he > (or anyone here) is willing to go (read: Northern Michigan) I'd be willing > to lend a hand with moving/storage/whatnot... I have a truck (and seating > for 5) & uncovered 5'x10' trailer, straps, tarps, etc... > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 3 13:37:11 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hard drive info Message-ID: <002c01c4a977$ff0ef830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bought a new hard drive for the classiccmp server. It's a seagate barracuda 7200rpm 8mb cache 160gb unit. Retail Price was $129.99, less $20 instant rebate, plus $7.23 sales tax, subtotal $117.22. Then there was a $50 mail in rebate, so the bottom line cost is $67.22. This was a compUSA special last week. Anyone who wants to donate a pittance to cover the drive purchase, paypal me at jwest@classiccmp.org I'll email the list soon as I cover the price of the drive. I probably wont get down to the datacenter to install the drive for a week or two. I'll announce to the list when the downtime is to be expected. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 3 13:47:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in this Sun Sparc systems? Message-ID: I've got a couple Aries Research Marix SS tower boxes that I'm getting real close to scrapping out for lack of any reason to keep them. These are Sparc servers basically. One's got 512MB RAM. The other has some unknown amount across 16 30-pin SIMMs (perhaps 4MB to 16MB each?) I've then got two similarly-styled tower chasses from the same manufacturer that have 5 Micropolis 1926 (2GB) drives each. See photos here: http://www.siconic.com/computers/Aries/ I'm hoping there's someone that would want the parts out of these...perhaps the memory or drives or CPU. Or maybe you're interested in the entire box. Who knows. I'd just hate to scrap them before I offered the stuff up to the list. I would like a nominal bit of cash to make it worth my time to pack and ship. It's all available, in whole or in part. First come first served. If there are no takers within a couple days, these will be ripped apart and everything will go off to the vultures. Act fast! Contact me off-list of course. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 3 13:26:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Floppy disks wanted - 5" hard sector In-Reply-To: <200410031531.i93FVWIa011049@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com > References: <200410031213.i93CD3nD058569@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041003142622.0093fbd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> They used to show up regularly on E-bay. One guy was selling them for the software on them. IIRC I bought a set of ten for less than $10. Joe At 11:31 AM 10/3/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone know of a source of some inexpensive 5.25" hard sector diskettes (as >used in North Star and some Heathkit computers - 10 sectors)? > > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 13:53:03 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005101c4a97a$3628bc00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I don't happen to have the manual handy, but have the drives > swallowed the tape leader? It's a bit of a pain in the neck to > restring the leader on a DLT7000 compared to a TK50, but it's still > not that hard. When you look in the drive, you should see something > that looks like the bottom end of the following: > http://zane.brouhaha.com/~healyzh/TK50-Leader.gif > > Zane A vote in favour of that suggestion: the TZ87 on my desk right now suffered the same symptoms, was fixed (by someone else) and the problem was precisely this. I'm told it is apparently quite common. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 3 15:45:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Thinking about the recent posts on "Emulating right down to the Iron"..and I > had an idea, that I first thought was completely crazy, but am now thinking > that it may be only slightly nuts.... > > People have successfully modeled some of the processors using current > technology such as FPGA's. What if someone used and FPGA or similar and > produced a processor capable of running the instruction set of a specific > machine, but was compatible at the PIN (and other HW considerations) of a > x86. A standard motherboard (obviously with a completely vustom BIOS) and > standard hardware could then be used. > > Depending on what type of HAL was implemented their might be the need for > some custom drivers at the emulated OS level. But this would provide a > platform that used current hardware (easy, available, cheap) without any > additional layers.... > > As I said, I thought I was completly wacko when the idea first came up, but > I wanted to get the lists thoughts.... You may as well design it as a co-processor card that goes into the PC and then takes over the bus. Sure, it's probable that it can be done the way you describe, but the distance between "probable" and "possible" is measured in terms of sanity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 3 16:04:12 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041003170327.03979b80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Sat, 2 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > Thinking about the recent posts on "Emulating right down to the > Iron"..and I > > had an idea, that I first thought was completely crazy, but am now thinking > > that it may be only slightly nuts.... > > > > People have successfully modeled some of the processors using current > > technology such as FPGA's. What if someone used and FPGA or similar and > > produced a processor capable of running the instruction set of a specific > > machine, but was compatible at the PIN (and other HW considerations) of a > > x86. A standard motherboard (obviously with a completely vustom BIOS) and > > standard hardware could then be used. > > > > Depending on what type of HAL was implemented their might be the need for > > some custom drivers at the emulated OS level. But this would provide a > > platform that used current hardware (easy, available, cheap) without any > > additional layers.... > > > > As I said, I thought I was completly wacko when the idea first came up, but > > I wanted to get the lists thoughts.... > >You may as well design it as a co-processor card that goes into the PC and >then takes over the bus. Sure, it's probable that it can be done the way >you describe, but the distance between "probable" and "possible" is >measured in terms of sanity. And Cashflow... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Oct 3 16:21:24 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: MFM Drive replacement Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041003171252.03220520@192.168.0.1> Anyone know of any solid state drive replacements for MFM hard drives? I know Wilson is making MFM->SCSI drive. And other companies make SMD and RK05 SSD plug ins. Anyone heard of a MFM SSD? If not, might be a fun project. Thanks, Ed K. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 16:56:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) Message-ID: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Bob or Anyone.... In simh if I have an att rl0 diskdrive1 And the simulator is running, If I rename diskdrive1 to something and rename something-else to diskdrive1 does the simulator care? will it start accessing the new disk image or continue to access the old? I know this would have implications for the simulated OS (rsts on a pdp11) but will it cause problems for the simulator? Likewise what about the paper tape punch/reader and lineprinter files? Could I use links? $>ln rsts-rl-system.dsk diskdrive1 Then to change disk packs I $>ln rsts-rl-othersystem diskdrive1 From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 17:08:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fortune cookie material! On Oct 3, 2004, at 1:45 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > the distance between "probable" and "possible" is > measured in terms of sanity. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Oct 3 17:21:00 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: CARA hamfest report Message-ID: I don't bother with many hamfests any more, as most seem to be turning into intel x86 clone shows. However, one hamfest that has never disappointed me is the CARA (Columbia (Maryland) Amateur Radio Association) hamfest held each October. This year's fest was no exception. It was pretty small this year due (probably) to the threatening rain, but I was still able to score the following for under $15 total (including $6 to get in): Bugtrap Model 2074 Logic comparator with manual and clips/probes. _Logic_Circuits_and_Microcomputer_Systems_ copyright 1980 by Wiatrawski and House intel 8-Bit Embedded Controller Handbook (1989) and (best for last) ADM-3A interactive display terminal operator's handbook (first printing, copyright 1975) ADM-3A Maintenance Manual in an LSI Data Products vinyl 3-ring binder. Full schematics, troubleshooting section, keyswitch repair/maintenance, etc. A good Saturday morning's haul, I think. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 16:58:19 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: HP5245 Info In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040928151453.007ec320@host1.kbnet.co.uk> from "Carlo" at Sep 28, 4 03:14:53 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > Have stumbled over the messages about HP5245, I have one, its > been working for years but now its developed some faults some > of the digits are stuck on a number.Like to have some basic diagrams > before I start fault finding, diagram of the two display boards > decade counter boards would be nice. I have the operating/service manual for the HP5245 counter, but alas I haev no scanner and therefore no easy way to get the diagrams to you. But if nobody else can help. I'll see what I can do. -tony From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 3 18:47:31 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Harvard vs. vonNeuman In-Reply-To: <415D0960.7090908@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Oct 01, 2004 03:38:08 PM Message-ID: <20041003234731.1626D73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Wai-Sun Chia once stated: > > Did the use of your self-modifying code in the past propelled you to the > future from where you're sending us mail in the present? :-) No, that's a bad CMOS battery in the Linux server. Whenever it reboots I have to check the time and date; only this time, I noticed the time was okay, but didn't notice that the date was a month off ... -spc (Server in question is not quite on topic yet ... but close) From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 20:03:07 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me Message-ID: <26E7719D-15A1-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Anyone know much about HP terminals (700/96) I have this beast hooked to a serial port on my linux box.. I am using a "serial laplink" cable and a null modem adapter (that should be two null modems together) I have agetty lines in my /etc/inittab s1:2345:respawn:/sbin/agetty -L 9600,19200 ttyS1 vt100 s2:2345:respawn:/sbin/agetty -L 9600,19200 ttyS2 vt100 The terminal is set at 91200 and set to emulate a vt100.. I am not sure however if the terminal is "online" or not Where is that switched? (does online or local make any sense for a glass tty with no local storage) From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 20:13:13 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) In-Reply-To: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On unix renaming a file just updates the directory which contains the file. Also, from the process point of view, an opened file is a small integer, so the process can't be notified that the opened file has been renamed or even deleted (in that case the file will still use blocks on the filesystem until the process dies, you just lose access to it from outside the process). Stephane On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 14:56:52 -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: > Bob or Anyone.... > > In simh if I have an > > att rl0 diskdrive1 > > And the simulator is running, If I rename diskdrive1 to something and > rename something-else to diskdrive1 does the simulator care? will it > start accessing the new disk image or continue to access the old? I > know this would have implications for the simulated OS (rsts on a > pdp11) but will it cause problems for the simulator? > > Likewise what about the paper tape punch/reader and lineprinter files? > > Could I use links? > > $>ln rsts-rl-system.dsk diskdrive1 > > Then to change disk packs I > > $>ln rsts-rl-othersystem diskdrive1 > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 20:23:58 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) In-Reply-To: References: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 3, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > On unix renaming a file just updates the directory which contains the > file. Also, from the process point of view, an opened file is a small > integer, so the process can't be notified that the opened file has > been renamed or even deleted (in that case the file will still use > blocks on the filesystem until the process dies, you just lose access > to it from outside the process). > Stephane Ok, What do you mean... It seems to me your saying that if I rename the file and name a new one in it's place the running process (simh) will continue to access the old file..(perhaps by inode) Still true if I use links? And what if simh closes and opens the file as needed? > > On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 14:56:52 -0700, Ron Hudson > wrote: >> Bob or Anyone.... >> >> In simh if I have an >> >> att rl0 diskdrive1 >> >> And the simulator is running, If I rename diskdrive1 to something >> and >> rename something-else to diskdrive1 does the simulator care? will it >> start accessing the new disk image or continue to access the old? I >> know this would have implications for the simulated OS (rsts on a >> pdp11) but will it cause problems for the simulator? >> >> Likewise what about the paper tape punch/reader and lineprinter files? >> >> Could I use links? >> >> $>ln rsts-rl-system.dsk diskdrive1 >> >> Then to change disk packs I >> >> $>ln rsts-rl-othersystem diskdrive1 >> >> > From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 3 20:46:00 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <26E7719D-15A1-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> (Ron Hudson's message of "Sun, 3 Oct 2004 18:03:07 -0700") References: <26E7719D-15A1-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200410040146.i941k0Np090557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Anyone know much about HP terminals (700/96) I have this beast hooked > to a serial port on > my linux box.. I am using a "serial laplink" cable and a null modem > adapter (that should be > two null modems together) I have agetty lines in my /etc/inittab > I am not sure however if the terminal is "online" or not > Where is that switched? (does online or local make any > sense for a glass tty with no local storage) There's a function-key label, "REMOTE MODE". You may have to get the right function-key label set up to see it (play with User and System keys). "REMOTE MODE" should have an asterisk (*) in it. If it doesn't, press the corresponding f-key. It's been too long since I used one of these to remember what keys you use. Yes, taking the terminal offline makes sense, at least in HP mode; you can do local editing of the on-screen data and then use the ENTER key to send it back to the host once you go back online. I used to do this all the time on the 264X terminals. BTW, the terminal is DTE. You probably want one null modem between it and your Linux box, if you can't be bothered to work out the pinouts and make the right cable. -Frank McConnell From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 21:10:07 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) In-Reply-To: <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 18:23:58 -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: ... > Ok, What do you mean... It seems to me your saying that if I rename the > file and name a new one in it's place the running process (simh) will > continue to access the old file..(perhaps by inode) yes. Unix = almost everything mapped to an inode. > Still true if I use links? You can even delete the file... it will just modify the directory entry (and internally decrement a reference counter probably from 2 to 1). > And what if simh closes and opens the file as needed? That would work, but you need to notify simh one way or another. You have to find a way to tell simh which device to close/reopen/reattach. If it doesn't matter, eg. you ask simh to reattach all the devices, a unix 'signal' can be used I guess. Anyway I pretty sure your hack won't be supported by any OS running on top of simh, I hope I'm wrong. -- Stephane Paris, France. From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 3 21:22:33 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) In-Reply-To: <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Oct 03, 2004 06:23:58 PM Message-ID: <20041004022234.C731473029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Ron Hudson once stated: > > On Oct 3, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > > > On unix renaming a file just updates the directory which contains the > > file. Also, from the process point of view, an opened file is a small > > integer, so the process can't be notified that the opened file has > > been renamed or even deleted (in that case the file will still use > > blocks on the filesystem until the process dies, you just lose access > > to it from outside the process). > > Stephane > > Ok, What do you mean... It seems to me your saying that if I rename the > file and name a new one in it's place the running process (simh) will > continue to access the old file..(perhaps by inode) Yes, exactly (only once you open a file, you access it via a handle, an integer value that only has meaning to the kernel). The file can be deleted (and it's name and inode will be removed from the disk) but it will still exist for the process that has it opened (the datablocks still exist on the disk). A file is only truely removed when there are no more processes that have it open. > Still true if I use links? Yes. Both hard and soft. > And what if simh closes and opens the file as needed? Until the process calls close() on a file, it will "exist" as far as the process is concerned (with respect to the file being renamed/deleted as the file is open). If it helps, think that once a process does the following: fh = open(somefile,mode); it establishes a communication channel with the file, and it can do anything (permissions and mode granting) to the file without having to worry about it disappearing underneath it [1], until the following: close(fh); You can play around with this using two shells on the same system. In shell 1, do: % mkdir /tmp/foo Then in shell 2, do % cd /tmp/foo % ls -l /dev >bar % more bar When you get a "more" prompt, then go back to shell 1 and type: % /bin/rm -rf /tmp/foo Then go back to shell 2. You can still page through the file all you want. Once you quite more though, if you do a % ls -l you'll see the directory is now empty. You can't create any more new files in the directory but a pwd will still show you in "/tmp/foo". It technically still exists on disk (until you exit out of that directory) but you can't get to it anymore. -spc (this behavior can be used to create temporary files ... ) [1] In some cases, it can, like NFS crashing or something, but the calls read(), write(), ioctl(), fcntl(), select() (and any others that use a file handle I've forgotten) will return an error. From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 3 21:21:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:48 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) In-Reply-To: <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Ok, What do you mean... It seems to me your saying that if I rename the > file and name a new one in it's place the running process (simh) will > continue to access the old file..(perhaps by inode) The directory entry ("foo.x") simply points to the inode that is the file. So once a process has a file opened, it references the file via the inode, so renaming the file has no effect. THe only "danger" is if the process needs to re-open the file (after closing it) and you've renamed it, but that's obvious, huh. (This is a secure way to handle temporary files: a process opens a file then deletes (unlinks) it, as long as the file is open, it (the inode) continues to exist; it will disappear when all references to the inode disappear, eg. you close the file. The advantage is, since the file doesn't have a name (in the directory) no other process can open it.) From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sun Oct 3 20:59:53 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check Message-ID: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if everything appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I haven't installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari installed is still in the storage facility. Thanks,, James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 3 21:33:54 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <200410040146.i941k0Np090557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <26E7719D-15A1-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <200410040146.i941k0Np090557@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2004, at 6:46 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: >> Anyone know much about HP terminals (700/96) I have this beast hooked >> to a serial port on >> my linux box.. I am using a "serial laplink" cable and a null modem >> adapter (that should be >> two null modems together) I have agetty lines in my /etc/inittab > >> I am not sure however if the terminal is "online" or not >> Where is that switched? (does online or local make any >> sense for a glass tty with no local storage) > > There's a function-key label, "REMOTE MODE". You may have to get the > right function-key label set up to see it (play with User and System > keys). "REMOTE MODE" should have an asterisk (*) in it. If it > doesn't, press the corresponding f-key. It's been too long since I > used one of these to remember what keys you use. Thanks, I know just where you are talking about. > > Yes, taking the terminal offline makes sense, at least in HP mode; you > can do local editing of the on-screen data and then use the ENTER key > to send it back to the host once you go back online. I used to do > this all the time on the 264X terminals. did the 264x terminals have a little HP tape drive along the bottom of the display? > > BTW, the terminal is DTE. You probably want one null modem between it > and your Linux box, if you can't be bothered to work out the pinouts > and make the right cable. My eyesight has gotten pretty poor, it's hard to see those solder cups on the db25's Once I got this working I would probably make up a cable, but for now I will use the various nice molded cables I have in various combinations.. > > -Frank McConnell > From cb at mythtech.net Sun Oct 3 21:46:26 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (cb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> References: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <4160B982.1060708@mythtech.net> James Rice wrote: > Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report > back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if > everything appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I > haven't installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari > installed is still in the storage facility. Looks ok using Firefox 1.0PR on Win2k (Server) From news at computercollector.com Sun Oct 3 21:44:45 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <20041004024445.79951.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> I'm using Opera 7.23 on Windows XP, and your site works fine. --- James Rice wrote: > Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report > back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if > everything appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I > haven't installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari > installed is still in the storage facility. > > Thanks,, > James > > -- > www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers > > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Oct 3 21:46:49 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> References: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <200410031946.49306.lbickley@bickleywest.com> James, Opera Version 7.54 Final Build 751 Platform Linux Checked out many pages of your site - had no trouble seeing everything (rendering O.K.) or navigating (except for the incomplete areas, of course ;-) Cheers, Lyle On Sunday 03 October 2004 18:59, James Rice wrote: > Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report > back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if > everything appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I > haven't installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari > installed is still in the storage facility. > > Thanks,, > James -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 3 21:48:19 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check References: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <010c01c4a9bc$9c7a67f0$8a406b43@66067007> Looks ok running latest IE and XP/SP2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: ; "Discussion@cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:59 PM Subject: Ot. Website check > Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report back > to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if everything > appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I haven't > installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari installed is > still in the storage facility. > > Thanks,, > James > > -- > www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Oct 3 22:09:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: Using IE (5.x and 6.x) it renders fine. However I find the left nav area disconcerting from a usability point of view. Very annowing to have to keep scrolling back up to click for different sections of the page. A nav tool is supposed to help minimize scrolling, but that's just my opinion [as a professional in the field] >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Rice >>> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 10:00 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Ot. Website check >>> >>> Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems >>> and report back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but >>> I need to know if everything appears to be working. It >>> looks ok to me with Mozilla but I haven't installed Opera >>> and don't use IE. My one box with Safari installed is >>> still in the storage facility. >>> >>> Thanks,, >>> James >>> >>> -- >>> www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and >>> Orphaned Computers >>> >>> From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 3 22:18:37 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041003231650.04735bf8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that James Rice may have mentioned these words: >Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report back >to me. Win2K SP4, Mozirra Firefox 0.8 IE6 Seem to work fine... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sun Oct 3 22:09:32 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4160BEEC.3080203@vzavenue.net> I want to thank everyone for the input. David pointed out that the nav panel on the left side of the screen moves with the scroll bar in IE 5.x and 6.x, I had viewed the site at a friends office last week and noticed that with Mozilla and Firefox the nav panel was static as I wanted, but with IE it moves with the scroll action. It must be a bug in my CSS code or in the way IE uses CSS. Anyone have any suggestions? James David V. Corbin wrote: >Using IE (5.x and 6.x) it renders fine. > >However I find the left nav area disconcerting from a usability point of >view. Very annowing to have to keep scrolling back up to click for different >sections of the page. A nav tool is supposed to help minimize scrolling, but >that's just my opinion [as a professional in the field] > > > > >>>> >>>> >>>> > > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 3 22:52:58 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160AE99.7000808@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Oct 03, 2004 08:59:53 PM Message-ID: <20041004035258.02AF773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great James Rice once stated: > > Can a few people check out my site for rendering problems and report > back to me. I'm not anywhere near finished but I need to know if > everything appears to be working. It looks ok to me with Mozilla but I > haven't installed Opera and don't use IE. My one box with Safari > installed is still in the storage facility. Looks good under IE 6.0 (Windows XP Home Edition) and Mozilla Firefox 0.9.2 (Windows XP Home Edition). There is a slight problem with the side navigation under Mozilla 1.4 (Slackware 9x with Linux 2.4), as you can see here: http://www.flummux.org/screenshots/blackcube.screen.shot.png Other than that, it looks great. -spc (You may also want to add more navigation links on the end pages to make it easier to navigate around the site) From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 3 22:59:06 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Ot. Website check In-Reply-To: <4160BEEC.3080203@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Oct 03, 2004 10:09:32 PM Message-ID: <20041004035906.1404E73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great James Rice once stated: > > I want to thank everyone for the input. David pointed out that the nav > panel on the left side of the screen moves with the scroll bar in IE 5.x > and 6.x, I had viewed the site at a friends office last week and > noticed that with Mozilla and Firefox the nav panel was static as I > wanted, but with IE it moves with the scroll action. It must be a bug > in my CSS code or in the way IE uses CSS. Anyone have any suggestions? Nope. In fact, I didn't even notice your nav bar scrolled under !IE and was static under IE. I just checked my own site (where under !IE, the navigation box does scroll) under IE, and yes, it screwed up there too! So I guess this is a definite CSS bug under IE (I don't think it supports the fixed attribute). Not that I care about IE any more. -spc (oh ... how about that?) From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 3 23:27:59 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives References: Message-ID: <001001c4a9ca$88e2f640$2201a8c0@finans> > > I was contacted recently someone at WPI who had been approached > > about reading an old DECtape. They no longer have the DEC-10 > > at WPI, so need to find someone with working DECtapes who might > > be able to read the tape... I'm not a DEC specialist (far from it), but if the tape is compatible with DLT2000, I would have a fair chance of being able to read it. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 3 23:28:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: PC-MOS Message-ID: <003e01c4a9ca$ad776ef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I remember someone was looking for a copy of this once. Here is a boxed original with all docs, etc. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=5128471513&rd=1 Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 00:02:58 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <26E7719D-15A1-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Oct 3, 4 06:03:07 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone know much about HP terminals (700/96) I have this beast hooked > to a serial port on > my linux box.. I am using a "serial laplink" cable and a null modem > adapter (that should be > two null modems together) I have agetty lines in my /etc/inittab My first worry is that if it's a normal terminal it'll be a DTE (I've never met a terminal that wasn't wired as such, for obvious reasons!) and a PC serial port is normally a DTE too. You need 1 null-modem between them. Get a breakout box (or even one of those little adapter-with-LEDs testers) and find out which pins the terminal and PC are using as outputs. -tony From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 4 02:54:37 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hard drive info In-Reply-To: <002c01c4a977$ff0ef830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002c01c4a977$ff0ef830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> At 19:37 03/10/2004, Jay West wrote: >Bought a new hard drive for the classiccmp server. It's a seagate >barracuda 7200rpm 8mb cache 160gb unit. Is this going to be the only drive in the machine? I've had a few drives go down in my servers in the past (mostly cheap maxtors) and have got into the habit of moving the more critical machines to hardware RAID 1 - two IDE drives and a SiL 0680 based ATA card costs me less than a single SCSI drive would do, and while not perhaps the best quality solution, provides a little more re-assurance that should something go pop somewhere, then I've not lost anything and I have time to source and install a replacement without worrying about the system being down meantime. Performance is slightly better, too! (The only problem, as with any RAID, is when you have to swap a drive and need to get a new one to match - I have found even the same model of drive from the same manufacturer, purchased at different times can report different capacities!) Rob. From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Oct 4 03:26:13 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: <001001c4a9ca$88e2f640$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > I was contacted recently someone at WPI who had been approached > > > about reading an old DECtape. They no longer have the DEC-10 > > > at WPI, so need to find someone with working DECtapes who might > > > be able to read the tape... > > I'm not a DEC specialist (far from it), but if the tape is compatible with > DLT2000, I would have a fair chance of being able to read it. DECtape has nothing to do with DEC's "TK" technology, and, therefore, nothing with DLT. Chances of you reading a DECtape with any DLT or TK drive are exactly 0.00%. You'd need a DECtape TU55/56 to read those (assuming they're DECtape II tapes), or a TU58 if they are of that kind. Usually, when people are referring to DECtape, they meen the small 256KB block-addresseable reel tapes "as seen on TV" and in the pictures, and those are TU55/56. I have a working TU56, but not a working machine to connect it to at the moment. --f From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Oct 4 03:34:27 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hard drive info In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > >barracuda 7200rpm 8mb cache 160gb unit. > > Is this going to be the only drive in the machine? Yeah, this has kept me wondering, too, even when it broke last time. > (The only problem, as with any RAID, is when you have to swap a drive and > need to get a new one to match - I have found even the same model of drive > from the same manufacturer, purchased at different times can report > different capacities!) This is not true. Especially with decent SCSI or SATA based controllers, one only needs to match the "surviving" drive(s) with a drive of AT LEAST the same capacity. If you have a RAID5 set of four 4.3GB drives, and drive #2 dies, you *can* without problems replace it with a 9.1G drive, and the array will be back up. The new drive will only have 4.3G of it used. This was actually a normal procedure to replace old drives with new drives in production arrays.. just replace them one at a time. Controllers that require identical drives in any RAID set are not worth the consideration in a (semi-)critical environment, as identical replacements are not a given. In Jay's case, I'd recomment implementing a SATA-based RAID1 set with two SATA 160G drives- possibly with a third one as offline or online (if the controller supports it) spare. --f From bert at brothom.nl Mon Oct 4 05:14:57 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Masscomp machines References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <416122A1.836CA3D7@brothom.nl> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone out there got any info on Masscomp machines (or own one)? I found > one the other day at BP (in something of a sorry state) but info on the [deletia...] > I'm particularly after a keyboard photo right now - I've got the system > unit and monitor, but there's no keyboard with it. Hopefully it's either > in the 'unknown keyboards' pile or has been accidentally tidied away in > a different pile of hardware :-) One listmember donated a masscomp to me, including a bunch of docs. I can easily make a picture of the keyboard, will try to do so today. Here's a link to the page of the old owner, including a picture: http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage.html Bert From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 4 04:25:15 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives References: Message-ID: <000901c4a9f4$0f4f34e0$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:26 AM Subject: Re: In search of... DECtape drives > > I have a working TU56, but not a working machine to connect it to > at the moment. > Sorry for not being familir with DEC-talk (and especially drive names), but I can manage reel-to-reel tapes Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 4 04:50:20 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hard drive info In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> At 09:34 04/10/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, I wrote: > > > (The only problem, as with any RAID, is when you have to swap a drive and > > need to get a new one to match - I have found even the same model of drive > > from the same manufacturer, purchased at different times can report > > different capacities!) >This is not true. Especially with decent SCSI or SATA based controllers, >one only needs to match the "surviving" drive(s) with a drive of AT LEAST >the same capacity. If you have a RAID5 set of four 4.3GB drives, and >drive #2 dies, you *can* without problems replace it with a 9.1G drive, >and the array will be back up. The new drive will only have 4.3G of >it used. This was actually a normal procedure to replace old drives >with new drives in production arrays.. just replace them one at a >time. > >Controllers that require identical drives in any RAID set are not worth >the consideration in a (semi-)critical environment, as identical >replacements are not a given. I was perhaps unclear; certainly using a larger capacity drive is no problem (except perhaps an irritation about the wasted space). What I was particularly worried about was I recently replaced a drive (in an IDE RAID 1 mirror) for one of an identical model number, and it was reported as being several Mb larger than the surviving drive. It has certainly been my experience that a "XX Gb drive" of one model is unlikely to be the exact same size (in terms of number of cylinders) as a "XX Gb drive" of a different model, even from the same manufacturer. However if you can't trust drives of the same model numbers to match, then the world is definitely moving downhill.. At least the new drive wasn't smaller.. then I would have been somewhat more irritated! >In Jay's case, I'd recomment implementing a SATA-based RAID1 set >with two SATA 160G drives- possibly with a third one as offline >or online (if the controller supports it) spare. Agreed! Rob. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 07:51:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bob Supnik lurking? (simh PDP11 question) References: <22418E74-1587-11D9-8109-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <10C5FF1B-15A4-11D9-AD45-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16737.18273.750000.238162@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Sun, 3 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >> Ok, What do you mean... It seems to me your saying that if I >> rename the file and name a new one in it's place the running >> process (simh) will continue to access the old file..(perhaps by >> inode) Tom> The directory entry ("foo.x") simply points to the inode that is Tom> the file. So once a process has a file opened, it references Tom> the file via the inode, so renaming the file has no effect. Tom> THe only "danger" is if the process needs to re-open the file Tom> (after closing it) and you've renamed it, but that's obvious, Tom> huh. Tom> (This is a secure way to handle temporary files: a process opens Tom> a file then deletes (unlinks) it, as long as the file is open, Tom> it (the inode) continues to exist; it will disappear when all Tom> references to the inode disappear, eg. you close the file. The Tom> advantage is, since the file doesn't have a name (in the Tom> directory) no other process can open it.) FWIW, much of that is true for various other file systems -- probably most of them. For example, RSTS, RSX, and VMS all work that way too. RSTS doesn't have inodes, but it does have state that points to an open file, and renaming or deleting doesn't disturb that. And they all have temporary files "marked for delete" as described above. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 07:55:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives References: <001001c4a9ca$88e2f640$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <16737.18487.328000.511033@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Nico" == Nico de Jong writes: >> > I was contacted recently someone at WPI who had been approached >> > about reading an old DECtape. They no longer have the DEC-10 > >> at WPI, so need to find someone with working DECtapes who might > >> be able to read the tape... Nico> I'm not a DEC specialist (far from it), but if the tape is Nico> compatible with DLT2000, I would have a fair chance of being Nico> able to read it. Nope. DECtape is 3/4 inch wide, 10 tracks, block oriented, random access. It is nothing like anything else (except LincTape). It's the world's first streaming tape, and also the most reliable tape ever made. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 07:58:09 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hard drive info References: <002c01c4a977$ff0ef830$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <16737.18657.187000.530085@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rob" == Rob O'Donnell writes: Rob> ...(The only problem, as with any RAID, is when you have to swap a Rob> drive and need to get a new one to match - I have found even the Rob> same model of drive from the same manufacturer, purchased at Rob> different times can report different capacities!) Any good RAID implementation will "coerce" the new drive to the size of the old one, certainly if the sizes are "close". paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 08:57:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. Message-ID: All, I am tring to remember, what are the differences between DecTape and LincTape..... TIA. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 4 08:45:52 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Why didn't I go raid in the first place...... I will have to check, as I haven't looked inside the case of the classiccmp server in a long time. However, I wanted to go with a 1U case so... well... quite frankly I didn't want to take any more rackspace from paying customers than necessary. Probably I was overzealous in this regard as we have a decent amount of free rackspace since we recently added another rack. But in that 1U case, I believe there is only room for one hard drive so raid and mirroring is problematic. Then remember that the motherboard was purchased a few years ago at least, when on-board raid and sata weren't so common for a common motherboard. Add to that the problems which may be present for installing add-on cards in a 1U case, and you may see my dilemma. That all being said - here is a thought. Some time in the next couple weeks I'll make it down to the datacenter and dig into the classiccmp server and see exactly what is in there, how much space for drives & expansion cards, etc. I'll report that back to the list and we can decide what to do. Lots of people paypal'd me to cover the cost of the drive - and provided well over the cost of the drive. I was going to set that money aside for future classiccmp upgrades at first thought... It's up to the people who contributed of course (I don't want to switch the goal after just getting the contributions)... but perhaps I should use the overage to upgrade the server with regards to raid-X and/or sata... Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 08:59:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96E14202-160D-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Victory over terminal!!! Well sort of. Yes, it's only one null modem. I have now a 9 pin straight cable+null modem adapter+genderchanger and It works. I think I am missing some handshake though.. when I put the terminal in smooth scroll it looses characters when I list things or print out something that is long. Everything works fine in the faster jump scroll. Just not as pleasing to use. Part of the problem was finding the one of 3 serial ports on the back of the computer that was really live (yes I built the computer, but that was a year ago) :^) On Oct 3, 2004, at 10:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Anyone know much about HP terminals (700/96) I have this beast hooked >> to a serial port on >> my linux box.. I am using a "serial laplink" cable and a null modem >> adapter (that should be >> two null modems together) I have agetty lines in my /etc/inittab > > My first worry is that if it's a normal terminal it'll be a DTE (I've > never met a terminal that wasn't wired as such, for obvious reasons!) > and > a PC serial port is normally a DTE too. You need 1 null-modem between > them. > > Get a breakout box (or even one of those little adapter-with-LEDs > testers) and find out which pins the terminal and PC are using as > outputs. > > -tony > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 09:11:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings Message-ID: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus control cab beneath? Doesn't seem likely that the drive assembly just rests on top - but there's no obvious way of securing the drive/cab together. I assume something's supposed to thread through the bracket at the top-front of the control cab and attach to the drive, but what/how? And then what secures the drive toward the rear? We almost got out Decsystem 570 completely rebuilt yesterday (it was totally dismantled and parts have been spread everywhere for the last few years) - just got the battery backup units and comms brackets to bolt on, and a couple of minor bits of trim to find and it's done. I'd stick some pictures up somewhere but I've just realised I have no idea how to get them off the camera with this new version of linux - d'oh! :-) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 09:23:36 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 08:45 -0500, Jay West wrote: > But in that 1U case, I believe there is only room for one hard drive > so raid and mirroring is problematic. Any CDROM / floppy drive you can lose to create space for another disk? (just watch out for heat issues though) We were given a 1U server recently (which seems to have a crack in the motherboard somewhere making it unreliable, so it's probably heading for the bin) that has built-in CDROM and floppy drives plus a single bay for a hard disk, but I think the CDROM could be removed to free up space. There's little point in having a CDROM except for an initialOS install (and not even then if the server's on linux and you do a network install) - and if you do ever need one temporarily, just hang a SCSI one off the back of the case. How much disk space does the system need, anyway? cheers, Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 09:37:59 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <96E14202-160D-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: >>> I think I am missing some handshake though.. when I put the >>> terminal in smooth scroll it looses characters when I list >>> things or print out something that is long. Everything >>> works fine in the faster jump scroll. Just not as pleasing to use. >>> Either a missing hardware handshake or a missmatch between hardware and software (XON/XOFF) handshakes..... From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Oct 4 09:27:36 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Jay (and The List) - any monies sent in by me may be used for whatever purpose you see fit - if a RAID array is indicated, then I say: "WooHoo!" Cheers John From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 4 09:35:59 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me References: Message-ID: <012101c4aa1f$771cc9e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Either a missing hardware handshake or a missmatch between hardware and > software (XON/XOFF) handshakes..... I have a 700/96 term at home on my D230... We also have a flock of them here at work on HP9K N-boxes. I believe that by default they are set for ENQ/ACK rather than XON/XOFF. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 4 09:46:46 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net><6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net><00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <012f01c4aa20$f8bb0ce0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Any CDROM / floppy drive you can lose to create space for another disk? > (just watch out for heat issues though) I believe the CDROM could be absconded with. I'd have to check. Heat shouldn't be too much of a problem... as I recall that system has one of those horizontal "squirrelcage" type blowers in it and it moves some serious air! The floppy drive in that case is a slim-line unit, can't put in a regular size one. > We were given a 1U server recently (which seems to have a crack in the > motherboard somewhere making it unreliable, so it's probably heading for More thoughts makes me think the classiccmp server has two drives in it. One for OS & addon software, and the other (160gb) for hosting the classic computer related websites and ftp sites. I would bet there's not room for a third. Hummm.... > (and not even then if the server's on linux and you do a network > install) *cough* The server is FreeBSD (which certainly supports network installations). > How much disk space does the system need, anyway? Ok just checked remotely... there is a 20gb drive for OS & apps & misc stuff, then a 160gb drive for websites & ftp sites (and mailing list files). The OS disk is roughly half used, and the data disk is roughly 35% used. I have a ton of HP stuff to put on it though and some other stuff I won't mention publicly (but it's classic computer related), so fairly soon we'll be using about 1/2 the 160gb drive. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 09:58:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: While this unit might severly stretch the budget, I have had extremely good luck deploying it for a number of clients.. http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=70 01&CatId=1205 [The above link does NOT mean I endorse making this purchase from the indicated distributor, it was just the first page that gave a good picutre, and specifications] From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 4 10:00:05 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (cb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <41616575.8070000@mythtech.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > We were given a 1U server recently (which seems to have a crack in the > motherboard somewhere making it unreliable, so it's probably heading for > the bin) that has built-in CDROM and floppy drives plus a single bay for > a hard disk, but I think the CDROM could be removed to free up space. > Dang, wish you were in the USA. I've been watching for a 1u rack case for another iMac conversion. I did one a while back (jammed an original bondi blue iMac logic board into a 1u rack case), and it runs very nicely as my main file server now. I wanted to do a 2nd to use as my main web/ftp server. I've got the logic board, just don't have the 1u case. Alas, shipping from the UK will probably cost me more than I have to spend on the project. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 10:08:37 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44ADDE93-1617-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 4, 2004, at 7:37 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: >>>> I think I am missing some handshake though.. when I put the >>>> terminal in smooth scroll it looses characters when I list >>>> things or print out something that is long. Everything >>>> works fine in the faster jump scroll. Just not as pleasing to use. >>>> > > Either a missing hardware handshake or a missmatch between hardware and > software (XON/XOFF) handshakes..... > > in datacomm configuration both RecvPace and XmitPace are set to Xon/Xoff... EnqAck is also set to YES - perhaps is overides? I'll set it to NO. hmm nope that didn't do it. Xon/Xoff are control characters.. If I can interact with the computer then they should work.. ^s and ^q stop and start output... hmm From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 10:10:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <012f01c4aa20$f8bb0ce0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <012f01c4aa20$f8bb0ce0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <1096902633.15058.33.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:46 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > Any CDROM / floppy drive you can lose to create space for another disk? > > (just watch out for heat issues though) > I believe the CDROM could be absconded with. I'd have to check. Heat > shouldn't be too much of a problem... as I recall that system has one of > those horizontal "squirrelcage" type blowers in it and it moves some serious > air! Yep, my guess would be that it'd be OK too. > More thoughts makes me think the classiccmp server has two drives in it. One > for OS & addon software, and the other (160gb) for hosting the classic > computer related websites and ftp sites. I would bet there's not room for a > third. Hummm.... So I suppose you might be looking for a different rack-mount server, or external storage shelves / SCSI disk cabinets sitting on top of the rack etc... Annoying thing being that I think I have a spare SCSI RAID controller and another storage shelf turning up in the near future, but I'm on the wrong side of the pond :-( > > (and not even then if the server's on linux and you do a network > > install) > *cough* The server is FreeBSD (which certainly supports network > installations). ;-) I couldn't remember if it did or not. Thinking about it, of course it does as I've done it before... > > How much disk space does the system need, anyway? > Ok just checked remotely... there is a 20gb drive for OS & apps & misc > stuff, then a 160gb drive for websites & ftp sites (and mailing list files). > The OS disk is roughly half used, and the data disk is roughly 35% used. I > have a ton of HP stuff to put on it though and some other stuff I won't > mention publicly (but it's classic computer related), so fairly soon we'll > be using about 1/2 the 160gb drive. Heh, I've got about that much RAIDed storage at Bletchley using donated equipment, but it's split between two 3U rack servers and storage shelves all stuck into a DEC PDP rack :-) Doesn't half look (and sound) the part though, but not exactly viable if you're sharing rack space with paying ventures! If you park your 1U server at the top of a rack then your best bet might be to put the OS on an external SCSI disk in a small cabinet resting on top of the rack (or next to a handy switch box etc. that doesn't take up a whole rack width), leaving two bays inside the machine free for RAID storage. cheers, Jules From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 10:21:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please Message-ID: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I need a really cheap place to get a laptop. It should be reasonably powerful (The end user will be surfing and email and light word processing) it must have: A non-windmodem modem (possible a pccard), ethernet (again possibly a pc-card) a cd Writer. And the cheaper the better. The end user is borrowing one of my machines and they are really hooked on the whole "work at home" be an "affiliate" buy my ebook and sell it yourself thing. I would rather they had their *own* machine that they could fill with spyware and junk. ;^) I don't want to hassle with ebay. Thanks. If this is too off-topic you can reply off list to: ron.hudson at sbcglobal dot net From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Oct 4 10:37:20 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please In-Reply-To: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > I need a really cheap place to get a laptop. It should be reasonably powerful > (The end user will be surfing and email and light word processing) it must > have: A non-windmodem modem (possible a pccard), > ethernet (again possibly a pc-card) a cd Writer. And the cheaper the better. Check out: www.half.com This is on eBay - but it's not a bidding situation. Most of the folks are dealers/refurbishers, and when you find something you like, the price is stated, you pay for it, it arrives. I've purchased three laptops so far, for much the same applications as you are trying to fulfill, and I've been completely happy. One laptop battery was crap (not rechargeable) - the seller replaced it via FedEx overnight. I was impressed - I bought a CDRW upgrade from her as well. Cheers John PS: Prices for what you want seem to be in the $400 - $600 range... From mcesari at comcast.net Mon Oct 4 10:45:42 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus > control cab beneath? Doesn't seem likely that the drive assembly just > rests on top - but there's no obvious way of securing the drive/cab > together. I assume something's supposed to thread through the bracket > at > the top-front of the control cab and attach to the drive, but what/how? > And then what secures the drive toward the rear? > Jules, The drive assembly and massbus ctlr cabinet are side-by-side. If you have a second drive, the controller cabinet is sandwiched in between; there's space in the controller cabinet for 2 controllers. Bitsavers has RM05 documentation: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/RM05 See the picture on the front cover of RM05_Handbook.pdf Mike (Who scraped his knuckles on DEC stuff too often 15 or so years ago...) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 10:51:02 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <41616575.8070000@mythtech.net> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <41616575.8070000@mythtech.net> Message-ID: <1096905062.15058.41.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 11:00 -0400, cb wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > We were given a 1U server recently (which seems to have a crack in the > > motherboard somewhere making it unreliable, so it's probably heading for > > the bin) that has built-in CDROM and floppy drives plus a single bay for > > a hard disk, but I think the CDROM could be removed to free up space. > > > > Dang, wish you were in the USA. So do I at times :-) > Alas, shipping from the UK will probably cost me more than I have to > spend on the project. Unfortunately so. I'm sure I can dream up some use for this thing that doesn't involve it being a PC (and therefore requiring a replacement board). A 1U rack-mount classic machine of some sort. Be a shame not to take advantage of the internal drive bay(s) though, so that would imply something that can use a 3.5" ST506 drive at least (and given the case height, have the controller on the system board) cheers, Jules From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 11:21:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > I will have to check, as I haven't looked inside the case of the classiccmp > server in a long time. However, I wanted to go with a 1U case so... well... > quite frankly I didn't want to take any more rackspace from paying customers > than necessary. Probably I was overzealous in this regard as we have a > decent amount of free rackspace since we recently added another rack. But in > that 1U case, I believe there is only room for one hard drive so raid and > mirroring is problematic. Then remember that the motherboard was purchased a > few years ago at least, when on-board raid and sata weren't so common for a > common motherboard. Add to that the problems which may be present for > installing add-on cards in a 1U case, and you may see my dilemma. Hmm. I wonder how feasible it would be to place two sets of disparate platters inside a single 3.5" form factor drive and have mirroring or RAID handled internally. You could still run it with a standard ATA interface but then there might be a super-set of commands to effect the mirroring/RAID. Hmm... Just a random wild-assed thought. If this is a money-making idea then I want few bucks tossed my way when I'm destitute on a street corner. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 4 11:18:08 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <416177C0.7000403@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Why didn't I go raid in the first place...... > That all being said - here is a thought. Some time in the next couple weeks > I'll make it down to the datacenter and dig into the classiccmp server and > see exactly what is in there, how much space for drives & expansion cards, > etc. I'll report that back to the list and we can decide what to do. Lots of > people paypal'd me to cover the cost of the drive - and provided well over > the cost of the drive. I was going to set that money aside for future > classiccmp upgrades at first thought... It's up to the people who > contributed of course (I don't want to switch the goal after just getting > the contributions)... but perhaps I should use the overage to upgrade the > server with regards to raid-X and/or sata... I'm going to suggest a bigger case, to start with. My company runs and manages more IDE-based servers and firewalls than is reasonable, and we *very* rarely see the frequency of drive failures that you're getting. When we do, it's invariably thermal issues in 1U rack cases. A lot of the 1U cases just don't provide adequate cooling for high-activity, high-RPM drives. As a matter of fact, I have a 4U PC case sitting here - no rails - that CC can have for shipping. It's got fans enough to cool a VW. :) I'm also going to stroke one of my pet peeves while we're here. Don't buy a motherboard with IDE RAID and plan to use it as RAID. Almost all the onboard chipsets use *the OS drivers* to do RAID. Yes, I know you set up stripes or mirrors in firmware and all that jazz. Still, when your OS (Linux or *BSD) sees the RAID members instead of or in addition to the RAID LUN, it's not frickin hardware RAID. Promise, Belkin, Highpoint, all use OS-level drivers to do the work. Do I remember you run FreeBSD? Set up a nice SATA pair or triplet and run software RAID. The performance will be comparable, and I'm betting that the recovery and management tools are considerably better than what any of the cheap IDE "RAID" adapters provide. If you want IDE or SATA hardware RAID, go 3ware. They rock. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 11:14:56 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus > > control cab beneath? Doesn't seem likely that the drive assembly just > > rests on top - but there's no obvious way of securing the drive/cab > > together. I assume something's supposed to thread through the bracket > > at > > the top-front of the control cab and attach to the drive, but what/how? > > And then what secures the drive toward the rear? > > > > Jules, > > The drive assembly and massbus ctlr cabinet are side-by-side. If you > have a > second drive, the controller cabinet is sandwiched in between; there's > space > in the controller cabinet for 2 controllers. Bitsavers has RM05 > documentation: Interesting. Maybe we've still got part of our Decsystem 5 to locate, then :-) (it'll be in the rooms of unsorted stuff *somewhere*, it's just a case of finding it) > See the picture on the front cover of RM05_Handbook.pdf OK, so what we have are three drives looking like the outer pair of cabinets in that image, although one is marked as dead (I believe it just needs a new blower motor though, so no big deal). What we haven't found (yet) is the middle of the three cabinets in that image. However, all of our cabinets which look like that outer pair are seperated into two bits - the drive mechanism that sits on top, and the assembly beneath (with the hinged front door and containing the massbus sockets - what I assumed was a controller/massbus interface for the drive above). There's no clear way in which the drive sits on top of this lower section; no obvious mounting holes on the underside of the drive unit. Whilst there are a lot of holes on the top of the lower cabinet and this bracket at the top-front, there's no obvious way of clamping the drive to it. I assume there must be some metalwork that we're yet to locate - the drive presumably vibrates quite a bit and not having it secured to the lower cab is asking for trouble! > Mike (Who scraped his knuckles on DEC stuff too often 15 or so years > ago...) Heh, I managed to get blood all over the rack after taking a chunk out of my finger on it... plus after moving the RM05s, rack bits, CPU, PSUs, memory crate, RK05 and the comms crate on Saturday and then lifting it all into place and assembling yesterday my joints are feeling it a little today :-) cheers, Jules From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Oct 4 11:21:26 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Floppy disks wanted - 5" hard sector In-Reply-To: <200410031531.i93FVWIa011049@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <004a01c4aa2e$329bb7e0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Barry, I have them. I purchase them in bulk, new, direct from a manufacturer. Given the relatively low demand for the item from the manufacturer's perspective, I think it's safe to say that they're not "cheap", but 2004 price is comparable to 1982 price. Contact me off list if you're interested. I also post kits of 10 preloaded with various operating system masters for North Star and Heath on VCM from time to time. --Patrick > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:32 AM > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Subject: Floppy disks wanted - 5" hard sector > > > > Anyone know of a source of some inexpensive 5.25" hard sector > diskettes (as used in North Star and some Heathkit computers > - 10 sectors)? > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Oct 4 11:11:47 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <96E14202-160D-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> (Ron Hudson's message of "Mon, 4 Oct 2004 06:59:20 -0700") References: <96E14202-160D-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200410041611.i94GBl4V096040@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ron Hudson wrote: > Yes, it's only one null modem. I have now a 9 pin straight > cable+null modem adapter+genderchanger and It works. I think I am > missing some handshake though.. when I put the terminal in smooth > scroll it looses characters when I list things or print out > something that is long. Everything works fine in the faster jump > scroll. Just not as pleasing to use. The "pleasure" of smooth scroll wears off. Anyway, yes, the terminal can be made to do XON/XOFF flow control, but it will be better for you to figure out the wiring and configuration to use the RTS/CTS and maybe DSR lines for hardware flow control and tell the terminal to do that. Then you'll be able to use Emacs without kludging around having used C-s and C-q for flow control. (That religious battle is on-topic here, isn't it?) -Frank McConnell From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 4 11:26:33 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:49 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please In-Reply-To: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <416179B9.4000604@mdrconsult.com> Ron Hudson wrote: > I need a really cheap place to get a laptop. It should be reasonably > powerful (The end user will be surfing and email and light word > processing) it must have: A non-windmodem modem (possible a pccard), > ethernet (again possibly a pc-card) a cd Writer. And the cheaper the > better. http://www.smalldog.com Or http://www.powermax.com > The end user is borrowing one of my machines and they are really hooked > on the whole "work at home" > be an "affiliate" buy my ebook and sell it yourself thing. I would > rather they had their *own* machine > that they could fill with spyware and junk. ;^) Smalldog will fix all of that. :) Doc From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 4 11:34:58 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DECtape and LINCtape Message-ID: <20041004163458.788203C9F@spies.com> LINCtape has the polarity of the clock track inverted, and the block types are different from DECtape. I'm sure Lyle can give you more details.. I'm heading out of town for a few days right now. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 11:49:24 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Bah! HP Terminal smarter n' me In-Reply-To: <200410041611.i94GBl4V096040@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <96E14202-160D-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <200410041611.i94GBl4V096040@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <5923B9DC-1625-11D9-905E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 4, 2004, at 9:11 AM, Frank McConnell wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: >> Yes, it's only one null modem. I have now a 9 pin straight >> cable+null modem adapter+genderchanger and It works. I think I am >> missing some handshake though.. when I put the terminal in smooth >> scroll it looses characters when I list things or print out >> something that is long. Everything works fine in the faster jump >> scroll. Just not as pleasing to use. > > The "pleasure" of smooth scroll wears off. > > Anyway, yes, the terminal can be made to do XON/XOFF flow control, but > it will be better for you to figure out the wiring and configuration > to use the RTS/CTS and maybe DSR lines for hardware flow control and > tell the terminal to do that. Then you'll be able to use Emacs without > kludging around having used C-s and C-q for flow control. (That > religious > battle is on-topic here, isn't it?) I mostly use vi anyway :^) but on this terminal I will probably be using teco a lot. > > -Frank McConnell > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 12:03:47 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DECtape and LINCtape In-Reply-To: <20041004163458.788203C9F@spies.com> Message-ID: >>> >>> LINCtape has the polarity of the clock track inverted, and >>> the block types are different from DECtape. >>> >>> I'm sure Lyle can give you more details.. I'm heading out >>> of town for a few days right now. Thanks for the info. I will see what other details Lyle may have. Good luck on your trip. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 11:54:17 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please In-Reply-To: <416179B9.4000604@mdrconsult.com> References: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <416179B9.4000604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <07640511-1626-11D9-905E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 4, 2004, at 9:26 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I need a really cheap place to get a laptop. It should be reasonably >> powerful (The end user will be surfing and email and light word >> processing) it must have: A non-windmodem modem (possible a pccard), >> ethernet (again possibly a pc-card) a cd Writer. And the cheaper the >> better. > > http://www.smalldog.com > > Or > > http://www.powermax.com > >> The end user is borrowing one of my machines and they are really >> hooked on the whole "work at home" >> be an "affiliate" buy my ebook and sell it yourself thing. I would >> rather they had their *own* machine >> that they could fill with spyware and junk. ;^) > > Smalldog will fix all of that. :) > > > Doc > > Since the "end user" barely has understands cut and paste (and I will probably have to explain it again) and is used to Windoze, I don't think throwing a mac laptop at them will help any. I would if I thought I could though, I am a Mac user myself (my "production" machine is an iBook, with osX ) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Oct 4 12:10:33 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DECtape and LINCtape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410041010.33658.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Linctape also is recorded in the opposite direction of DECtape. I'd have to pull some manuals from storage to get more definative info. I've been swamped businesswise - so I haven't been following this discussion (other than to notice Al's comment). What specifically are you looking for? If you've been discusssing this already on the list - contact me offline so other folks don't need to see a "rehash". Cheers, Lyle On Monday 04 October 2004 10:03, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> LINCtape has the polarity of the clock track inverted, and > >>> the block types are different from DECtape. > >>> > >>> I'm sure Lyle can give you more details.. I'm heading out > >>> of town for a few days right now. > > Thanks for the info. I will see what other details Lyle may have. Good luck > on your trip. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 4 12:16:09 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <012f01c4aa20$f8bb0ce0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <1096899816.15041.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041004130208.053965c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >I believe the CDROM could be absconded with. I'd have to check. Heat >shouldn't be too much of a problem... as I recall that system has one of >those horizontal "squirrelcage" type blowers in it and it moves some serious >air! Yes, they do very well for their size, don't they? ;-) >The floppy drive in that case is a slim-line unit, can't put in a regular >size one. Then don't put in a regular sized one -- put in a laptop drive with a 2.5" to 3.5" adapter (which might have to be modified... that's what Dremel tools are for! ;-) ), and use that rascal as a backup drive. That's what I've been thinking of doing... especially now that they have 7200RPM laptop drives. 'Course, just for fun, could you see a couple of those raided? ;-P I don't know if I'd use 'em for 'data' drives, but for boot/logging drives, the seem to do OK - I even have an IBM drive turned external firewire at home, and it performs *almost* as well as my internal IDE. [[ I built it mainly as "near-offline" storage, but heck -- it's quick enough I use it for a lot of my MPEG transcoding, instead of just storing shows as planned. ]] -- Oh, and you have my permission as well to use my donated funds as you see fit for the server. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 4 12:21:26 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net><00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <416177C0.7000403@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <01cc01c4aa36$947ea460$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Doc wrote... > I'm going to suggest a bigger case, to start with. That's possible, we'll see when I look at the case. > is reasonable, and we *very* rarely see the frequency of drive failures > that you're getting. When we do, it's invariably thermal issues in 1U > rack cases. A lot of the 1U cases just don't provide adequate cooling > for high-activity, high-RPM drives. This case has some serious airflow due to the many fans plus the large blower motor. I don't think that the classiccmp server hard drive has failed but twice in about 5 or so years. Not great, but not a really bad failure rate methinks. > Do I remember you run FreeBSD? Set up a nice SATA pair or triplet > and run software RAID. Never ever ever ever run any raid level in software. It's always a bad idea. > If you want IDE or SATA hardware RAID, go 3ware. They rock. I'll have a looksee. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 4 12:24:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks wanted - 5" hard sector Message-ID: <200410041724.KAA14144@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I've made a punch setup that seems to work. I used the frame of an old SA400 ( broken before I got it ). I can punch the needed holes but it is not a high speed production system. I figure for my time, a box of ten for $10 is a lot cheaper than my rates. Still, for my uses, punching them myself has personal satisfaction. If anyone is interested, I do have bootstrapping routines for H8/H89 Heathkit machines so a person can get their system up and running without a preformatted disk ( it does need the 10 extra holes ). One can the download HDOS through the serial port onto a fresh disk. The Poly 8813/10 also use hard sectored disk. I expect to do some work on a similar routines for these. Right now, I can transfer files but it does take a boot disk to get started. I have a couple of Northstar machines but haven't had the time to play with them. They are on my list. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > > They used to show up regularly on E-bay. One guy was selling them for >the software on them. IIRC I bought a set of ten for less than $10. > > Joe > >At 11:31 AM 10/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Anyone know of a source of some inexpensive 5.25" hard sector diskettes (as >>used in North Star and some Heathkit computers - 10 sectors)? >> From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 4 12:25:42 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please In-Reply-To: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041004132320.03a10a80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ron Hudson may have mentioned these words: >I need a really cheap place to get a laptop. It should be reasonably >powerful (The end user will be surfing and email and light word >processing) it must have: A non-windmodem modem (possible a pccard), >ethernet (again possibly a pc-card) a cd Writer. And the cheaper the better. You could also try www.tcresale.com... Their website sucks a bit to navigate, but they have some decent prices on refurb laptops (and other machines)... [[ You know, Ron -- just for fun, when said user is ready to pick up their laptop, you could hand 'em one of your Model 100's... ;-) ]] HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 12:30:42 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041004084510.04600ab8@pop.freeserve.net> <6.1.2.0.0.20041004103941.045e0150@pop.freeserve.net> <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <416177C0.7000403@mdrconsult.com> <01cc01c4aa36$947ea460$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <16737.35010.32307.935247@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: >> Do I remember you run FreeBSD? Set up a nice SATA pair or triplet >> and run software RAID. Jay> Never ever ever ever run any raid level in software. It's always Jay> a bad idea. Why? All RAID runs in software -- the only question is whose software and which processor. Not all RAID software is sufficiently good, and not all RAID software is complete (I've seen some that had the recovery cases "not yet implemented"...) but that's a different question. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 4 12:31:43 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: ot++ laptop buying advice please In-Reply-To: <07640511-1626-11D9-905E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <0B6F8DC8-1619-11D9-A1F7-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <416179B9.4000604@mdrconsult.com> <07640511-1626-11D9-905E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <416188FF.9020401@mdrconsult.com> Ron Hudson wrote: > Since the "end user" barely has understands cut and paste (and I will > probably have to explain it again) and is used to Windoze, I don't think > throwing a mac laptop at them will help any. I would if I thought I > could though, I am a Mac user myself (my "production" machine is an > iBook, with osX ) My Spousal Equivalent is a long-time Windows dependent. I should also mention that she's the Anti-Geek. She doesn't particularly like computers at all, and doesn't like learning new things if she can get out of it. Three weeks ago, just about two hours after I left on a 2-week business trip, her system booted to a windows Protection Fault and hasn't run since. I had set her up an account on my G5 months ago, but she'd never logged in, until her box broke and I wasn't here to "reboot and reinstall". I got her logged into OS X, walked her through setting up her email accounts, told her which Dock icon is Safari and where to find my copy of "The Missing Manual", and that's all it took. She has a new 17" eMac on her desk now. :) Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 4 12:38:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: spec sheet for a 8308 Message-ID: <200410041738.KAA14159@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Oct 1 2004, 11:06, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi >> I'm looking for a spec sheet on a 8308. I think it >> is part of the older National Semi series DM8308. >> It might be a 8303 ( the schematic is not to clear ). >> I think it is an inverting 8 channel bus tranceiver. >> I need information on which way the drivers go with >> the direction control and is the enable true or false. > >I think you mean DP8303 / DP8308? Both of these are 20-pin DIL 8-bit >bidirectional transceivers; the DP8303 is inverting and the DP8308 is >non-inverting. In both cases, the A port is pins 1-8, and the >corresponding B port pins are 19-12. > >On the DP8303 (and DP8304, which is the non-invering equivalent) Chip >Disable (active high to disable) is pin 9; pin 11 is Transmit/-Receive; >"transmit" (pin 11 high) means A is input and B is output. > >On the DP8308 (and DP8307, the inverting equivalent), pin 9 is >-Transmit and 11 is -Receive (both active low). > >On all of them, port A can sink up to 16mA and port B can sink up to >48mA. > >The DP7303/4/7/8 devices are extended-temperature range versions of >DP8303/4/7/8. Hi Pete It looks like you are correct, they should be DP8303's. Does anyone have any of these or know where I can get any? Thanks Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 13:22:15 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:14 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > > On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus > > > control cab beneath? Right, I'm confuzzling myself here. So, the upper part of the RM05 just contains the pack and head assembly, whilst the cabinet beneath contains just PSU, blower unit, and interface cables? There's no read/write logic in that lower cabinet (or the drive above) at all? Then there's a seperate cabinet (which we need to find) which actually has the read/write logic for the drives and in turn hooks to the back of the 570? What's confusing me is that there are four connectors (dual port, in/out) inside the cabinet that sits beneath the drive assembly. Those look to be exactly the same as an output connector on the back of the DECsystem. That's what was making me think that the back of the DECSystem plugs straight into one of those connectors on the lower drive cabinets (I assumed the out on one cab then chains to the input on the next one etc.), and that there was no 'missing cabinet' and that all the read/write logic and massbus interface was in the cabinets below each drive. Seems odd they'd use the same connector for two different applications (machine to control cabinet, then control cabinet to each drive) Yark! Jules ps. every Linux pdf viewer I can find takes an age to flip between pages when looking at docs the size of the ones on bitsavers - to the point that it makes casual reading completely impossible :-( From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 4 14:04:53 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Chances of you reading a DECtape with any DLT or > TK drive are exactly 0.00%. Well at least there are a few things in life we can really count on! From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Oct 4 13:18:08 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: WooHoo... Big Iron at auction IBM S/390 Message-ID: <416193E0.8050201@theriver.com> Hey all you big iron collectors!! Tomorrow at the UA auction they got a Big S/390 with all the auxiliary cabinets. I fortunatly had my digital camera with me this time,s as the University FORGOT to post the computer on it's online site. This means that a lot of would-be purchasers may not be there. I suspect that the 390 and the associated cabinets will go cheap, but who knows. The University may decide to postpone the auction for the 390 til next time. If they don't..Here's your chance. You can bid by phone. But you'll need to set up an account with them before the auction. Auction starts at 8:30 MT (tucson Az.). I expect that they will get to the s/390 at aroun 11:00 or 12:00 noon. I have some photos I took this morning. They are not labeled. I've written down more info and I'm looking it up as we speak. The 390 is circa 1999/2000 and is in #2 condition which is next to new. Several books/binders w documentation. Hey don't these things run linux on a virtual partition?? Anyway, see for yourself. (the brown lines on the machines is tape. It's too keep people from opening the cabs and removing componenets during inspection day (today) http://personal.riverusers.com/~dponsford/UAauction.html Auction web page: http://pacs.web.arizona.edu/surplus/public/auction-sale_home.html Tom --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Oct 4 14:09:43 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410041409.43966.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Sunday 03 October 2004 15:45, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > You may as well design it as a co-processor card that goes into the PC and > then takes over the bus. Sure, it's probable that it can be done the way > you describe, but the distance between "probable" and "possible" is > measured in terms of sanity. This seems like a pretty decent idea, actually. With modern pc hardware you could put it on the pci bus, but a bootable option rom in it, and probably have that take over the whole machine from there... -- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Oct 4 14:15:50 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > Well at least there are a few things in life we can really count on! Yup! :) --f From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 14:33:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: <200410041409.43966.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: >>> >>> This seems like a pretty decent idea, actually. With >>> modern pc hardware you could put it on the pci bus, but a >>> bootable option rom in it, and probably have that take over >>> the whole machine from there... >>> Most PC implementations to not really lend themselve to full mastering of the system from a PCI slot. MicroChannel machines WERE designed for this purpose, but never really caught on. That is why I was thinking about a FPGA type arrangement that (with some supporting cirtuitry) could actually plug into the procesor chip. To keep the internal logic a bit simplier the clock could be divided down a few stages. Although I have not worked directly in that area of hardware design for about 12 years now, I still have some contacts who have even designed custom digital (and analog) monolithics for a variety of functions. Im willing to wager that the cost would not be totally outragous just by splitting it across a few dozen systems. From mcesari at comcast.net Mon Oct 4 14:24:40 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <09608B38-163B-11D9-BCB4-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Oct 4, 2004, at 12:22 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:14 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: >>> On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus >>>> control cab beneath? > > Right, I'm confuzzling myself here. > > So, the upper part of the RM05 just contains the pack and head > assembly, > whilst the cabinet beneath contains just PSU, blower unit, and > interface > cables? There's no read/write logic in that lower cabinet (or the drive > above) at all? There should be a card cage for r/w/servo/etc. electronics. Cables (memory fuzzy here on details) go to the heads and positioning servo. 2 ribbon cables (certain here!) go to the massbus interface. (A *modified by DEC* SMD interface.) > > Then there's a seperate cabinet (which we need to find) which actually > has the read/write logic for the drives and in turn hooks to the back > of > the 570? Fat round grey (standard massbus cable) between the RH70 and the RM05 massbus interface. > > What's confusing me is that there are four connectors (dual port, > in/out) inside the cabinet that sits beneath the drive assembly. Those > look to be exactly the same as an output connector on the back of the > DECsystem. That's what was making me think that the back of the > DECSystem plugs straight into one of those connectors on the lower > drive > cabinets (I assumed the out on one cab then chains to the input on the > next one etc.), and that there was no 'missing cabinet' and that all > the > read/write logic and massbus interface was in the cabinets below each > drive. Seems odd they'd use the same connector for two different > applications (machine to control cabinet, then control cabinet to each > drive) > > Yark! > > Jules > Aha! Sounds like you have an RM03, not an RM05. The RM03 has 6 heads and the RM05 has 20. In the RM03, everything fits into one cabinet. Not the case for the RM05. This is because space in the RM05 is taken up by the deeper disk pack enclosure and the larger motor. Isn't this fun? Mike From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Oct 4 14:34:36 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC T11 data sheet? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004153104.03269e50@192.168.0.1> Anyone have a data sheets for the DEC T11 processor chip? Or a link to one? Thanks, Ed K. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 14:58:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <09608B38-163B-11D9-BCB4-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <09608B38-163B-11D9-BCB4-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1096919891.15041.102.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 13:24 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > Aha! > Sounds like you have an RM03, not an RM05. The RM03 has 6 heads and the > RM05 > has 20. In the RM03, everything fits into one cabinet. Not the case for > the > RM05. This is because space in the RM05 is taken up by the deeper disk > pack > enclosure and the larger motor. Aha - I think you might be on to something there. the chap who actually knows about this system hasn't touched it since it was dismantled ten years ago, so his memory's naturally a little hazy, and I'm not a DEC person at all! > Isn't this fun? Actually it's a pretty good challenge - the system was *totally* dismantled and spread over several rooms, so we've done well to get it all reassembled and (nearly) all the bits found. Currently we're missing two door hinges and a little bit of plastic trim from the rack front that attaches with velcro-like pads, but we seem to have located everything else. The CPU seemed to fire up OK after we'd tested the power supplies, but we need the front panel key before we can check operation properly (luckily that's at someone's house and not lost in storage). Whether the drives are still operational after ten years of non-use is another matter (all sound deadening / filters have naturally all decayed). The system was operated by Shell and provided a multi-user document system to about 40 users, complete with a primitive form of hyperlinking - and apparently was totally network-aware and could hook up with other such systems across a WAN to share information. Would be interesting to get it booting (we've got all the disk packs, including engineer tests, and those have all been in sealed storage so should be OK still) I'll have to hunt out a 'scrap' disk pack to try initially in case anything lets go in a big way (worst case we've got sealed original- stock packs so could sacrifice one of those) cheers for the pointer - think you're spot-on with the RM03 theory! Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 4 15:02:38 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Emulation.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4161AC5E.4000409@gjcp.net> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>This seems like a pretty decent idea, actually. With >>>>modern pc hardware you could put it on the pci bus, but a >>>>bootable option rom in it, and probably have that take over >>>>the whole machine from there... > That is why I was thinking about a FPGA type arrangement that (with some > supporting cirtuitry) could actually plug into the procesor chip. To keep > the internal logic a bit simplier the clock could be divided down a few > stages. I think it would be more of a PITA than it was worth. A lot of modern hardware needs a fair old bit of setting up from software. Maybe a "standard" motherboard to take an FPGA, fitted with a couple of serial ports, possibly USB ports, and an IDE controller would be a bit better? It would be fairly easy to implement. Gordon. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 4 14:58:45 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> At 11:21 AM 10/4/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Hmm. I wonder how feasible it would be to place two sets of disparate >platters inside a single 3.5" form factor drive and have mirroring or RAID >handled internally. The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, you're out of luck. - John From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 4 15:04:28 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC T11 data sheet? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004153104.03269e50@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <008401c4aa4d$5aca2f20$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Anyone have a data sheets for the DEC T11 processor chip? > Or a link to one? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/T11_UsersMan.pdf There might be more in the various VAX 8600 manuals, as I believe it used the T11 for its console. The RQDX3 used it too IIRC, but there won't be much on that I guess. I'm not sure what all the various HSCs were based on, perhaps one of those was a T11 too? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 4 15:16:18 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: <16737.18487.328000.511033@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001001c4a9ca$88e2f640$2201a8c0@finans> <16737.18487.328000.511033@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Nope. DECtape is 3/4 inch wide, 10 tracks, block oriented, random > access. It is nothing like anything else (except LincTape). It's the > world's first streaming tape, and also the most reliable tape ever > made. ANd that last might not even be an exaggeration :-) I used lintapes on a nova 1200 shipboard navigation system (accoustic nav, Ocean Research Equip. Inc, Massachusetts) and you could get the heads wet and gritty and they'd still work. You could wipe them off on your sleeve to fix read errors. (Tapes had short lives in that environment but you simply brought a lot of copies.) If I remember correctly, physically there are 10 tracks, but the heads (or amps) are wired in "series" such that two non-adjacent tracks are redundant, so individual bad spots on the tape do nothing. Very robust. Low density, and somewhat slow, but not too shabby for the early 1970's! (The first real computer I ever used was a 16K Nova 1200, linctape and silent 700, I typed in TREK from BYTE magazine, had to fix the incompatibilities in dialects (seemed like a big deal at the time :-). From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 15:32:38 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> Message-ID: >>> >>> The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. >>> If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, >>> you're out of luck. >>> Reminds me of the person who did not understand why using two partitions of the same drive for mirrors was not the brightest idea in the world... From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Oct 4 15:27:16 2004 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> Message-ID: <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> On Monday 04 October 2004 14:58, John Foust wrote: > The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. > If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, > you're out of luck. True, but those failure modes are much less common the a media failure or head crash. That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in the same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely kill both disks with a head crash on either one. A head crash in a modern high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of pulverized platter and head bits around inside the disk, damaging the other platters that may not have been involved in the actual crash. So I think you'd need to isolate the sections from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up more room that you're pretty low on already. That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off cheap enough, it would be well worth it, too. > > - John -- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) "we are content if we can describe a multitude of other things in terms of... fundamental incomprehensibilities. science is an activity that takes place on the shore of an infinite sea of mystery." chet raymo, "doctor seuss and doctor einstein" From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 4 15:31:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> Message-ID: > >Hmm. I wonder how feasible it would be to place two sets of disparate > >platters inside a single 3.5" form factor drive and have mirroring or RAID > >handled internally. On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. > If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, > you're out of luck. I agree, the slight increase in complexity of two physical drives is vastly offset by the increase in reliability. YOu have to look at what fails -- and it's the rotating junk that dies, not as often the electronics. For classicmp, how about off-machine rsync copies? Even a simplistic 2nd internal drive and a cron rsync drive 1 to drive 2 gets you a lot of results for little effort. Personally, I'd go RAID5 and a second machine outside the datacenter both. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 4 15:31:20 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Paul Allen announces Albuquerque Microcomputer Gallery Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004153051.1335b630@pc> * Microcomputer Exhibit to Open in Microsoft Birthplace http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/microcomputer_museum_041001.html Microsoft co-founder, Paul G. Allen, announced today plans for a museum exhibit in Albuquerque, NM , which will document the history and impact of the microcomputer. The 3,000-square-foot Microcomputer Gallery is scheduled to open to the public in 2006 and will be housed in the New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science. - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 4 15:35:42 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <4161B41E.8000902@mdrconsult.com> Dan Wright wrote: > On Monday 04 October 2004 14:58, John Foust wrote: > >>The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. >>If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, >>you're out of luck. > > > True, but those failure modes are much less common the a media failure or head > crash. > > That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in the > same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely > kill both disks with a head crash on either one. A head crash in a modern > high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of pulverized platter and head bits > around inside the disk, damaging the other platters that may not have been > involved in the actual crash. So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off cheap > enough, it would be well worth it, too. Cheap enough to sell the idea of throwing away 2 drives when one fails? Doc From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Oct 4 15:33:21 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC T11 data sheet? In-Reply-To: <008401c4aa4d$5aca2f20$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004153104.03269e50@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004162741.033dd548@192.168.0.1> At 04:04 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote: > > Anyone have a data sheets for the DEC T11 processor chip? > > Or a link to one? > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/T11_UsersMan.pdf > >There might be more in the various VAX 8600 manuals, >as I believe it used the T11 for its console. The >RQDX3 used it too IIRC, but there won't be much >on that I guess. I'm not sure what all the various >HSCs were based on, perhaps one of those was a >T11 too? Perfecto!! Thanks, I looked all over bitsavers before bothering the list, and even googled site:www.bitsavers.org for T11 and didn't get any hits. RQDX1 and RQDX2 controllers use them also, and I have over a dozen I don't use. I need several microcontrollers for a project (MFM SSD). Last I used were 6802 and 6809. Rather than use something new and most likely having to get a development system and learn a new assembler, I thought it would be neat to use the T11. Thanks again. Ed K. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 4 15:52:55 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: DEC T11 data sheet? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004162741.033dd548@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004153104.03269e50@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041004162741.033dd548@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <20041004205255.GA4080@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 04, 2004 at 04:33:21PM -0400, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/T11_UsersMan.pdf > > RQDX1 and RQDX2 controllers use them also, and I have over a dozen I don't > use. As do the Simpact competitors to SRC's COMBOARDs (we used the 68000 starting in 1979; they went with the T-11). Speaking of which, I happen to have a Simpact board but no software. If anyone happens to have any software for any platform (PDP-11, VAX...), I'd be curious to have a peek at it. I never got to see their stuff running back in the day. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Oct-2004 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.7 F (-48.2 C) Windchill -92.8 F (-69.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.3 kts Grid 015 Barometer 692.3 mb (10167. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 4 16:25:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off cheap > enough, it would be well worth it, too. But when one platter ate its head and is making Bad Noises, you have to replace the "drive" anyhoo, removing 1bad+1good platter from the RAID system. Where's the gain there? Plus yet another specialized device, I'd rather use OTS junk drives and buy more of them. From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Oct 4 15:40:31 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: WooHoo... Big Iron at auction IBM S/390 In-Reply-To: <416193E0.8050201@theriver.com> References: <416193E0.8050201@theriver.com> Message-ID: <4161B53F.8050609@theriver.com> A little more information; Apparently, it is a S390 Parallel Enterprise Server Generation 4 other lots with it include; IBM 3480 Mag Tape subsystem 1 IBM 3422 Tape Drives IBM 3990 Disk Controller 9392/B23 Disk Array (16 Bays) IBM 3174 Network Processor and what I believe is the IBM Coupling Facility, but I'm not sure (It's the darkblue doublewide cabinet.) I did not write down the system model numbers, as I had to track down a warehouse person to let me open up the cabinets, and as I was pressed for time I had to forgo the 15 min wait. You can probably call the surplus people and if you tell them where to look. they will most likely find the information for you. I think more specifics on the system were in the system binders, that were actually wedged inside the front doors of the S390 cabinet. Cheers Tom Tom Ponsford wrote: > Hey all you big iron collectors!! > > Tomorrow at the UA auction they got a Big S/390 with all the auxiliary > cabinets. I fortunatly had my digital camera with me this time,s as the > University FORGOT to post the computer on it's online site. > > This means that a lot of would-be purchasers may not be there. I suspect > that the 390 and the associated cabinets will go cheap, but who knows. > The University may decide to postpone the auction for the 390 til next > time. If they don't..Here's your chance. > > > You can bid by phone. But you'll need to set up an account with them > before the auction. Auction starts at 8:30 MT (tucson Az.). I expect > that they will get to the s/390 at aroun 11:00 or 12:00 noon. > > I have some photos I took this morning. They are not labeled. I've > written down more info and I'm looking it up as we speak. The 390 is > circa 1999/2000 and is in #2 condition which is next to new. Several > books/binders w documentation. Hey don't these things run linux on a > virtual partition?? > > Anyway, see for yourself. (the brown lines on the machines is tape. It's > too keep people from opening the cabs and removing componenets during > inspection day (today) > > http://personal.riverusers.com/~dponsford/UAauction.html > > Auction web page: > > http://pacs.web.arizona.edu/surplus/public/auction-sale_home.html > > Tom > > > > > --- > Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread > back to the beginning. > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 16:32:34 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives References: <001001c4a9ca$88e2f640$2201a8c0@finans> <16737.18487.328000.511033@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16737.49522.31920.951435@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: >> Nope. DECtape is 3/4 inch wide, 10 tracks, block oriented, random >> access. It is nothing like anything else (except LincTape). It's >> the world's first streaming tape, and also the most reliable tape >> ever made. Tom> ANd that last might not even be an exaggeration :-) In college, we used DECtapes for the "open to all" file storage. We had more free space there than on disk... For that application, we actually managed to wear out tapes to the point that they became unreadable, much to the surprise of an ex-DEC employee who came to work at the college. He had never heard of such a thing. On the other hand, he or one of his friends once put some pants in the laundry, only to discover afterwards that one of them had a DECtape in the pocket. That tape still worked just fine afterwards. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Oct 4 17:34:08 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Oct 2004 17:32:34 EDT." <16737.49522.31920.951435@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200410042234.i94MY8Tg023993@mwave.heeltoe.com> Paul Koning wrote: > >On the other hand, he or one of his friends once put some pants in the >laundry, only to discover afterwards that one of them had a DECtape in >the pocket. That tape still worked just fine afterwards. huh. I've taken to 'baking' old tapes these days but I never concidered washing them with my pants. on a more serious note: Anyone on the boston or mass/nh/ct area have a working 9-track drive which can read 800bpi tapes? I can read 1600's fine but not 800's :-( -brad From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Oct 4 19:27:27 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David V. Corbin wrote thus: > I am tring to remember, what are the differences between DecTape and > LincTape..... In addition to tape direction, as someone else already noted, the data words are written onto the tape in different bit orders. Here's examples, from the LINC-8 and PDP-8 formats: LINCtape: DECtape: --- timing track ------- timing track --- -- 4-bit mark track --- 6-bit mark track bit: 0 1 2 3 0 3 6 9 4 5 6 7 1 4 7 10 8 9 10 11 2 5 8 11 [redundant data, mark & timing tracks on other side of tape, for both DECtape and LINCtape] I'm told that DECtape on machines with longer than 12 bits (PDP-9, PDP-10, et.al.) continue the data in the same fashion as DECtape, continuing with bits 12/13/14 in the next sequential time-track, 15/16/17 in the one following that, et cetera - though I've never verified it myself. DECtape also uses 6-bit markers in the mark track, and LINCtape uses 4-bit markers; the LINCtape values are given in the PDP-12 Maintenance Manual, volume 1, p. 6-11 (and I'm sure the 6-bit DECtape values are somewhere, but off the top of my head I don't know where ). I'm also told that the timing track for LINCTape is the opposite polarity to that of DECTape. This was described to me as a "hidden gotcha". :) And that's the sum and scope of my knowledge, thank you very much. -O.- ...Ah, I think I've just found the 6-bit DECtape mark track values. They're in the TC08 Maintenance Manual, p. 2-05. Both it and the PDP-12 maintenance manuals are available on bitsavers.org, which is where I first got to see copies. Thanks once more, Al. :) From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 4 19:38:23 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. References: Message-ID: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "O" == O Sharp writes: O> ...DECtape also uses 6-bit markers in the mark track, and LINCtape O> uses 4-bit markers; the LINCtape values are given in the PDP-12 O> Maintenance Manual, volume 1, p. 6-11 (and I'm sure the 6-bit O> DECtape values are somewhere, but off the top of my head I don't O> know where ). Are the DECtape marks 6 bits even on the PDP-8? That would be strange, it would mean there would be two mark words per 3 data words. paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Oct 4 19:43:35 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041004204328.02c1bfe8@192.168.0.1> At 08:27 PM 10/4/2004, you wrote: >Thanks once more, Al. :) Ditto! Ed K. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 20:43:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > On Monday 04 October 2004 14:58, John Foust wrote: > > The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. > > If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, > > you're out of luck. > > True, but those failure modes are much less common the a media failure or head > crash. > > That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in the > same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely > kill both disks with a head crash on either one. A head crash in a modern > high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of pulverized platter and head bits > around inside the disk, damaging the other platters that may not have been > involved in the actual crash. So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off cheap > enough, it would be well worth it, too. Sure it can be done. The technology is available now. The density would be adequate. I think there's a market for it. Now to just write a business plan and attract some investors... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 20:44:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Paul Allen announces Albuquerque Microcomputer Gallery In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041004153051.1335b630@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > * Microcomputer Exhibit to Open in Microsoft Birthplace > http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/microcomputer_museum_041001.html > > Microsoft co-founder, Paul G. Allen, announced today plans for a museum > exhibit in Albuquerque, NM , which will document the history and impact > of the microcomputer. The 3,000-square-foot Microcomputer Gallery is > scheduled to open to the public in 2006 and will be housed in the New > Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science. Interesting. But I'd expect more than 3,000sqft from Allen. That's not very big. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 20:48:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > > > So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off cheap > > enough, it would be well worth it, too. > > But when one platter ate its head and is making Bad Noises, > you have to replace the "drive" anyhoo, removing 1bad+1good > platter from the RAID system. Where's the gain there? > > Plus yet another specialized device, I'd rather use OTS > junk drives and buy more of them. Everyone's missing the point. Good :) There's a market after all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 20:50:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: <16737.49522.31920.951435@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Nope. DECtape is 3/4 inch wide, 10 tracks, block oriented, random > >> access. It is nothing like anything else (except LincTape). It's > >> the world's first streaming tape, and also the most reliable tape > >> ever made. > > Tom> ANd that last might not even be an exaggeration :-) > > In college, we used DECtapes for the "open to all" file storage. We > had more free space there than on disk... For that application, we > actually managed to wear out tapes to the point that they became > unreadable, much to the surprise of an ex-DEC employee who came to > work at the college. He had never heard of such a thing. > > On the other hand, he or one of his friends once put some pants in the > laundry, only to discover afterwards that one of them had a DECtape in > the pocket. That tape still worked just fine afterwards. A modern day equivalent tale: I once washed a pair of jeans with one of my SmartMedia cards in it. It came out just fine (with all the photos it had stored on it). Not terribly surprising though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Mon Oct 4 20:53:11 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:50 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041005015311.51922.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> The HD business is a tough one to crack. Instead, you should patent the idea and sell it to Toshiba, Quantum, Western Digital, or Seagate. --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > > > On Monday 04 October 2004 14:58, John Foust wrote: > > > The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. > > > If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, > > > you're out of luck. > > > > True, but those failure modes are much less common the a media failure or > head > > crash. > > > > That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in > the > > same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely > > kill both disks with a head crash on either one. A head crash in a modern > > high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of pulverized platter and head bits > > around inside the disk, damaging the other platters that may not have been > > involved in the actual crash. So I think you'd need to isolate the > sections > > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off > cheap > > enough, it would be well worth it, too. > > Sure it can be done. The technology is available now. The density would > be adequate. I think there's a market for it. Now to just write a > business plan and attract some investors... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From news at computercollector.com Mon Oct 4 20:54:15 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> So build it with MODULAR platters. --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > > > > > So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > > > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > > > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take > up > > > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > > > > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off > cheap > > > enough, it would be well worth it, too. > > > > But when one platter ate its head and is making Bad Noises, > > you have to replace the "drive" anyhoo, removing 1bad+1good > > platter from the RAID system. Where's the gain there? > > > > Plus yet another specialized device, I'd rather use OTS > > junk drives and buy more of them. > > Everyone's missing the point. Good :) There's a market after all. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 4 21:09:15 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote... > So build it with MODULAR platters. Sounds suspiciously like floppy disks. Technology once again comes full circle. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 4 21:20:29 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <20041005015311.51922.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > The HD business is a tough one to crack. Instead, you should patent the idea > and sell it to Toshiba, Quantum, Western Digital, or Seagate. I'll do one better: I'll have them crawling to me begging ;) Muhaha. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 4 21:45:53 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: "Removable" hard drives (was Re: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server) In-Reply-To: <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041005024553.GA3116@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 04, 2004 at 09:09:15PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > >So build it with MODULAR platters. > > Sounds suspiciously like floppy disks. Technology once again comes full > circle. RC25 anyone?!? (grinning, running and ducking) -ethan (for the DEC-impaired, the RC-25 is/was a fixed/removable platter drive with about 25MB each. You had to mount a cart to spin up the internal platter. I _think_ there was one positioner, so it could be kinda slow. Many people have had problems with its reliability) P.S. - having (re-)aquired a VAX-11/725 a year ago August, I'm looking for an RC-25 cart or two. I used to have several, but they disappeared from the same place that my first VAX vanished from when they went out of business (long story). No hurry... I won't be spinning it up for probably about six months. If I had a "better" disk for it, I'd use it. How much do Unibus SCSI cards go for? :-) -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 05-Oct-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -51.6 F (-46.5 C) Windchill -83.09 F (-64 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 039 Barometer 691.6 mb (10191 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 4 21:55:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2004, at 7:09 PM, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... >> So build it with MODULAR platters. > > Sounds suspiciously like floppy disks. Technology once again comes > full circle. > > Jay > > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to form a 5m drive? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 4 22:12:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> I once washed a pair of jeans with one of my SmartMedia >>> cards in it. It came out just fine (with all the photos it >>> had stored on it). Not terribly surprising though. >>> I would have thought the pictures would have faded somewhat From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 4 22:52:50 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Paul Allen announces Albuquerque Microcomputer Gallery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Microsoft co-founder, Paul G. Allen, announced today plans for a museum > > exhibit in Albuquerque, NM , which will document the history and impact > > of the microcomputer. The 3,000-square-foot Microcomputer Gallery is > > scheduled to open to the public in 2006 and will be housed in the New > > Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science. > > Interesting. But I'd expect more than 3,000sqft from Allen. That's not > very big. That's plenty of space. They're _micro_ computers donchaknow. *gd&r* g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Oct 4 22:50:48 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. In-Reply-To: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul Koning observes: > Are the DECtape marks 6 bits even on the PDP-8? That would be > strange, it would mean there would be two mark words per 3 data words. Strange but true. I got the info from a DEC _Small Computer Handbook_ for 1967, and confirmed it in a later 8/I edition because it didn't make sense to me either. :) It does show kind of an odd overlap, but evidently they liked it anyway. What machine did DEC first use DECtape (not LINCtape) for? If it was something with an 18-bit word length maybe it would make sense, but I remember reading somewhere that it was first used on the PDP-5... -O.- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 5 00:18:31 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041004221351.Q83849@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> So build it with MODULAR platters. > > Sounds suspiciously like floppy disks. Technology once again comes > > full circle. > > Jay > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to > form a 5m drive? The Amlyn drive had a cartridge holding 5 1.2M 5.25" floppies, that could be accessed one at a time, or as if it were a 6M disk (physically only one disk was loaded at a time). But although it could span disks, it did not use any reasonable "RAID" method. The diskettes had a couple of extra notches cut into them, but were otherwise normal 600 Oersted diskettes. From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 5 00:28:40 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041005052840.74556.qmail@web52806.mail.yahoo.com> Off-topic: speaking of storage, did ya'll see the announcement of the new Palm device this week? It has a built-in 160-something-MB flash drive, and Bluetooth. That means, in theory, you can carry it around as a wireless HD. I think Linksys and Toshiba already make wireless HD units, but either way it's cool. --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Dan Wright wrote: > > > On Monday 04 October 2004 14:58, John Foust wrote: > > > The point of RAID is to save your data when a drive fails. > > > If the logic board goes, or especially the motor fails, > > > you're out of luck. > > > > True, but those failure modes are much less common the a media failure or > head > > crash. > > > > That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in > the > > same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely > > kill both disks with a head crash on either one. A head crash in a modern > > high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of pulverized platter and head bits > > around inside the disk, damaging the other platters that may not have been > > involved in the actual crash. So I think you'd need to isolate the > sections > > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > > more room that you're pretty low on already. > > > > That sure would make an interesting drive :) If it could be pulled off > cheap > > enough, it would be well worth it, too. > > Sure it can be done. The technology is available now. The density would > be adequate. I think there's a market for it. Now to just write a > business plan and attract some investors... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 01:19:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Everyone's missing the point. Good :) There's a market after all. Umm, well, no... I just think it's a really bad idea! :-) (Sorry I couldn't resist...) From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 01:22:19 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to form a > 5m drive? FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never mind all the lovely noises... Actually, you could probably optimize for seek... Imagine a 6-foot rack of 5" (or better, 8") flops all HONK HONKing. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 5 01:43:01 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com><004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000e01c4aaa6$8fbb5b10$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Tom Jennings" > > FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never > mind all the lovely noises... > Actually, you could probably optimize for seek... > Imagine a 6-foot rack of 5" (or better, 8") flops all HONK HONKing. Well, it isn't so strange an idea. When I was employed by Philips Denmark, I had to support a PTS6000 system in a local authority. The system was "slightly" underdimensioned; instead of a proper system (1x 5MB disk, 1x 8" 251K floppy, 1x digital cassette), they had for budgetary reasons to do with 2x 8" floppy and 1 cassette. The "system" floppy contained all system files like suppliers, programs, etc., while the 2nd floppy was for the daily transactions. As the memory was underdimensioned, they had to do disk overlay on the system floppy! We usually shipped 5 disks at the same time, as a floppy was normally worn out in about a week. Paying for the floppies was not problem, as it was paid from a maintenance account, as opposed to an investment account. I still dont dare to show my face at the customer site... Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 02:14:51 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <000e01c4aaa6$8fbb5b10$2201a8c0@finans> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com><004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000e01c4aaa6$8fbb5b10$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Nico de Jong wrote: > When I was employed by Philips Denmark, I had to support a PTS6000 system in > a local authority. The system was "slightly" underdimensioned; instead of a > proper system (1x 5MB disk, 1x 8" 251K floppy, 1x digital cassette), they > had for budgetary reasons to do with 2x 8" floppy and 1 cassette. > ... > We usually shipped 5 disks at the same time, as a floppy was normally worn > out in about a week. Paying for the floppies was not problem, as it was paid > from a maintenance account, as opposed to an investment account. > > I still dont dare to show my face at the customer site... UGH! What a nightmare!! Pretty funny from here though. My old FidoNet code ran just fine in 128K (K, not M) because it was all small-model and ran in OVERLAYS (via PSA's plink). Performance wasn't too bad, but still it was a lot of drive honking, luckily I got to overlay Fido vs. FidoNet, user interface sections vs. scheduler, etc. Hard disk was "recommended" (sic). But it wasn't like that, which sounds awful. I assume they are not still running it! From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 04:17:40 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote... > > So build it with MODULAR platters. > > Sounds suspiciously like floppy disks. Technology once again comes full > circle. Already done: DEC built the RX50 : single-spindle, multiple removable platters. Bit density on the platters was an issue, though. ;-) --f From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Oct 5 04:46:02 2004 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> At 07:22 05/10/2004, you wrote: >On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to > form a > > 5m drive? > >FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never >mind all the lovely noises... It exists..... http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm Best Regards, Adrian Vickers. From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 05:04:32 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: <20041005100432.88259.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> We're off the question though... Sellam asked about doing RAID among platters od different specs in ONE drive. --- Ade Vickers wrote: > At 07:22 05/10/2004, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > > > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to > > form a > > > 5m drive? > > > >FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never > >mind all the lovely noises... > > It exists..... > > http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm > > > Best Regards, > Adrian Vickers. > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 550 readers and counting! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 11:14:56 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus > > control cab beneath? Doesn't seem likely that the drive assembly just > > rests on top - but there's no obvious way of securing the drive/cab > > together. I assume something's supposed to thread through the bracket > > at > > the top-front of the control cab and attach to the drive, but what/how? > > And then what secures the drive toward the rear? > > > > Jules, > > The drive assembly and massbus ctlr cabinet are side-by-side. If you > have a > second drive, the controller cabinet is sandwiched in between; there's > space > in the controller cabinet for 2 controllers. Bitsavers has RM05 > documentation: Interesting. Maybe we've still got part of our Decsystem 5 to locate, then :-) (it'll be in the rooms of unsorted stuff *somewhere*, it's just a case of finding it) > See the picture on the front cover of RM05_Handbook.pdf OK, so what we have are three drives looking like the outer pair of cabinets in that image, although one is marked as dead (I believe it just needs a new blower motor though, so no big deal). What we haven't found (yet) is the middle of the three cabinets in that image. However, all of our cabinets which look like that outer pair are seperated into two bits - the drive mechanism that sits on top, and the assembly beneath (with the hinged front door and containing the massbus sockets - what I assumed was a controller/massbus interface for the drive above). There's no clear way in which the drive sits on top of this lower section; no obvious mounting holes on the underside of the drive unit. Whilst there are a lot of holes on the top of the lower cabinet and this bracket at the top-front, there's no obvious way of clamping the drive to it. I assume there must be some metalwork that we're yet to locate - the drive presumably vibrates quite a bit and not having it secured to the lower cab is asking for trouble! > Mike (Who scraped his knuckles on DEC stuff too often 15 or so years > ago...) Heh, I managed to get blood all over the rack after taking a chunk out of my finger on it... plus after moving the RM05s, rack bits, CPU, PSUs, memory crate, RK05 and the comms crate on Saturday and then lifting it all into place and assembling yesterday my joints are feeling it a little today :-) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 5 05:33:45 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 15:27 -0500, Dan Wright wrote: > That brings me to another point, though -- if you had 2 seperate disks in the > same enclosure, with no environmental isolation between them, you'd likely > kill both disks with a head crash on either one. Two stacks of 2.5" platters should fit in one 3.5" drive enclosure, and give a slightly larger data surface as compared to a single 3.5" stack. Platters will be thinner too so you can stack more of them; with two head assemblies throughput should be improved; smaller diameter platters mean less physical head movement and so faster seek times; lighter platters mean less power for spindle motors and faster spin-up time; 3.5" enclosure means it fits into industry-standard enclosures... I suspect reliability would be a key problem, coupled with heat dissipation, and probably vibration problems from two drive motors. Not to mention tooling/design costs... :-) > A head crash in a modern high-speed drive tends to throw a lot of > pulverized platter and head bits around inside the disk, damaging the > other platters that may not have been involved in the actual crash. Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... > So I think you'd need to isolate the sections > from each other with some kind of airtight (or at least > really-small-bits-of-metal tight) seal; probably doable, but would take up > more room that you're pretty low on already. Don't modern drives embed servo information across platters though? So as soon as you lose one platter the drive's dead anyway. A crash will also likely introduce unacceptable drag into the head assembly, and what's the point in having a drive running at less than 100%? To get things back to an operational state you have to replace the whole lot anyway. I'm assuming you're kidding ;-) cheers, Jules From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Oct 5 05:44:20 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11 boards to be saved from scrapper Message-ID: <41627B04.9010702@pacbell.net> The current high bidder on this item, jandbyates, appears to be a gold scrapper. Any PDP-11 fans want to bid on these? I have no connection with the seller, I just don't want to see a scrapper get these boards, even though I have no use for them. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5723156389&rd=1 --Bill From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 5 06:10:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes Message-ID: Does anyone have the capability to read 3480 tapes? Ideally, I'm looking for someone in the Silicon Valley area who has the capability. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 5 06:32:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: VCF Gazette Volume 2 Issue 4 Message-ID: VCF Gazette Volume 2, Issue 4 A Newsletter for the Vintage Computer Festival October 5, 2004 Miraculously on schedule, it's time for the next installment of the Vintage Computer Festival Gazette! Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 VCF East 2.0 Exhibit Awards and Photo Gallery VCF Producer Sellam Ismail on G4TechTV's Screen Savers October 19 Subscribe to the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 ---------------------------------- Since the last VCF, the trials and tribulations of daily life made their inevitability painfully attendant: bills came due, accidents happened, bad days at the office were had, arguments broke out, and the morning paper was thrown into the sprinklers yet again. Woe is us! But lo, a bright and shining beacon of nerdilicious salvation is on the horizon and draws nigh. The Vintage Computer Festival returns! Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 is right around the corner, taking place on November 6-7 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View in (still) sunny California. Flights are cheap and so is the admission, so you have little excuse to stay home cramped behind your computer trying in vain to craft that perfect Google search term. Just put all that nonsense behind you and join us for some fanatical Festival folly! We are honored to once again have the Computer History Museum as our sponsor! And as always, we bring you yet another wonderful line-up of speakers, exhibitors, and special events, including a 30th anniversary retro- spective of Maze War, the original "first-person shooter" videogame, plus so much more! In fact, we're planning so much for this year's event, it might possibly be even too much! Some of it we can't even mention yet because we're still in the middle of planning it. So come on out and watch us put on a gargantuan geek gala guaranteed to gasify your gall bladder...either that or watch us crash and burn in spectacular style. Either way, it's sure to be entertaining! We've Got Lodging! For out of town guests, the VCF has arranged a hotel room block at the Residence Inn Palto Alto Mountain View, located within 3 miles of the Computer History Museum and featuing, among other fine amenities, an on-demand shuttle service between the Inn and the Computer History Museum. The special VCF rate is US$79 per night. Reservations must be made by October 15 to take advantange of this terrific rate so do not delay! Full details are available here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/lodging.php Computer History Galore! The VCF speaker schedule has moved back to a "track" style this year. The talks are assembled into themes for the most part. We've got another terrific line-up! Check it out: Saturday, November 6 Track 01 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 10:00am Using Vintage Computers in Forensics Fred Cohen 11:00am Documenting the BBS Jason Scott 12:00pm The Art of Textmode Christian Wirth 1:00pm History of FidoNet Tom Jennings Track 10 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 11:30am Confessions of an Entrepreneur Dr. Robert Suding 12:30am VCF Ramblings Sellam Ismail Sunday, November 7 Track 01 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------ 10:00am Early IBM History John Sailors 11:00am The IBM 360 Evolution and Revolution Jerome Svigals 12:00pm Early Microprocessor Design Nick Tredennick 1:00pm Maze War Retrospective Panel Track 10 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 10:30am Things You May Not Know... Evan Koblentz 11:30am Tipping Sacred Cows Tom Jennings 12:30am The Art of Vintage Computers Christine Finn 1:30pm Neo-Retro: The XGameStation Andre LaMothe More information on the VCF 7.0 speakers can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/speaker.php BBS Documentary Screening Jason Scott, proprietor of textfiles.com--the Internet's largest collection of historic textfiles--has completed work on his BBS documentary. "BBS: The Documentary" spans across seven separate films which cover every aspect of the world of bulletin board systems, tracing the history of the BBS as well as the historic figures that made it a distinctly unique mode of digital communication. This will be the first public screening of the documentary, and audience input from VCF attendees will determine the final cut of the film series. More information on the screening can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/screening.php Computer History Museum Tours As always, the Computer History Museum's terrific staff will be giving VCF attendees tours of the Museum's fantastic collection. Tours are held in the afternoon and run every half an hour. Tour information is available here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/tours.php Exhibit Your Computer! One of the best ways to enjoy the VCF is by participating directly. Be an exhibitor! As an exhibitor, you get to be a part of all the behind-the-scenes action. Plus you get a chance to show off your favorite computer and perhaps even win an award for an outstanding exhibit. The Best of Show award includes as a prize the Replica 1, a software compatible re-creation of the legendary Apple-1 computer, courtesy of its creator, Vince Briel. So don't delay, sign up today! http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/exhibit.php More information about Vince Briel's Replica 1 can be found on his website: http://home.comcast.net/~vbriel/ Buy, Sell and Trade at the VCF Marketplace As always, one of the most exciting aspects of the VCF is the Marketplace, where you can find a large and varied assortment of some of the most fantastical old computer thingies anywhere. Find that odd part you've been seeking out for your collection, then touch, smell, even taste it if you like, before haggling out a deal. There is simply no better place to buy and sell vintage computers than at the VCF Marketplace. Vendor booths are still available. For more information on selling at VCF 7.0, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/vendor.php The VCF 7.0 BBS is Live! Communicate with fellow VCF 7.0 attendees on the VCF 7.0 BBS! Set up trades and carpools, talk about exhibiting, and discuss generally anything about the upcoming Festival: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/bbs.php So Much More! Complete information about VCF 7.0, including the speaker schedule and exhibit roster, as well as lodging information and driving directions, can be found on the VCF 7.0 web pages: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/ Keep in mind that the VCF will from now on be held during the first weekend in November. VCF East 2.0 Exhibit Awards and Photo Gallery --------------------------------------------- The 2nd annual Vintage Computer Festival East was held on July 16-17 at Sun Microsystems' Burlington campus in Burlington, Massachusetts. The turnout was terrific, and so were the speakers and the exhibits. If you didn't make this event, you'll certainly want to put it on your calendar for next year. A photo gallery of the VCF East 2.0 exhibits can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCFEAST20 In the meantime, we are pleased to present the results of the exhibit awards. Class Awards First, Second and Third Place ribbons are awarded in each of five classes that represent major areas of effort in computer collecting and preservation. Judging is based on a set of criteria including: appearance, condition, originality, authenticity, completeness, and functionality. Additional judging takes into account the breadth of the exhibit by assessing the inclusion of documentation and software. Class A: Homebrew, Kit or Educational Computer - Any Vintage 1st Place: Vince Briel - Replica 1 2nd Place: Bob Maxwell - A Homebrewer's OSI Superboard 2 and Offspring 3rd Place: Vinal Applebee - Before There Were Blinkenlights Class B: Manufactured Personal Computer - Pre-1981 1st Place: Bill Sudbrink - The Woodies 2nd Place: Andrew Molloy - Zeda 580 Integrated Video Computer System 3rd Place: Devon McCullough - SOL-20 Dialup to ARPANET Circa 1976 Class C: Manufactured Personal Computer - Post-1981 1st Place: Michael Thompson - Sun Microsystems History 2nd Place: Jeff Armstrong - DEC Rainbow 100 Dual Monitor Setup 3rd Place: Tom Owad - Fibercorp Rack-mount VME-bus Macintosh Class D: Mini-computer or Larger System - Any Vintage 1st Place: Jeff Katz - PDP-8/e 2nd Place: Bob Shannon - HP1000 Minicomputer Preservation/Restoration Class E: Open 1st Place: Curt Vendel - Atari 7800 2nd Place: Evan Koblentz - PDAs: 1973-1993 3rd Place: William Donzelli - Computers in Uniform Special Awards Special Awards are given to exhibits based on various practical and esthetic criteria. These accolades are intended to award exhibits that advance the state of computer collecting and preservation. Best Presentation: Research Curt Vendel - Atari 7800 Best Presentation: Completeness Curt Vendel - Atari 7800 Best Presentation: Display Jeff Armstrong - DEC Rainbow 100 Dual Monitor Setup Best Presentation: Creative Integration with Contemporary Technology Devon McCullough - SOL-20 Dialup to ARPANET Circa 1976 Best Preservation: Original Condition Herbert Eisengruber - Computer Museum of Nova Scotia Best Preservation: Restoration Andrew Molloy - Zeda 580 Integrated Video Computer System Best Preservation: Recreation Bob Armstrong - SBC6120 PDP-8 Clone Best Preservation: Obscurity Vinal Applebee - Before There Were Blinkenlights Best Technology: Analog William Donzelli - Computers in Uniform Best Technology: Non-Electric William Donzelli - Computers in Uniform Best of Show The Best of Show award determines, based on the best overall score achieved, which exhibit deserves to be singled out for extra special recognition. The VCF East 2.0 Best of Show award went to Vince Briel for his Replica 1 Apple-1 clone. Congratulations, Vince! People's Choice Award Finally, the People's Choice Award taps into the pulse of the VCF crowd. Attendees are encouraged to submit a ballot naming their favorite exhibit of the show. The exhibit that attracted the most votes this year was Jeff Armstrong's DEC Rainbow 100 Dual Monitor Setup. I would like to thank and congratulate all VCF East 2.0 exhibitors for contributing to yet another excellent exhibition. Watch out for news about the next VCF East in the summer of 2005! VCF Producer Sellam Ismail on G4TechTV's Screen Savers October 19 ----------------------------------------------------------------- The VCF's Sellam Ismail will be appearing on G4TechTV's "The Screen Savers" program on Tuesday, October 19th. Sellam will be bringing along his PDP-1 front panel replica to demonstrate playing SpaceWar! as simulated on a laptop running SIMH. This marks Sellam's fourth appearance on The Screen Savers. Check your local listings for air times. Subscribe to the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter ----------------------------------------------------- The Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter published by Evan Koblentz (formerly the ClassicTech E-Letter published by Michael Nadeau) is a weekly newsletter that discusses the computer collecting hobby. The newsletter is brief yet informative and always interesting. The VCF's Sellam Ismail is a regular contributing member of the Newsletter staff and wholeheartedly recommends it for folks interested in the hobby of collecting vintage computers. To subscribe, visit the Computer Collector website, which also includes helpful directories listing upcoming events as well as places in the real world you can visit to see old computers. http://news.computercollector.com The CCEN is currently undertaking a subscription drive. Whoever ends up as subscriber #600 will automatically win a copy of Michael Nadeau's "Collectible Microcomputers". Might that be you? Subscribe and find out! That wraps it up for this issue of the VCF Gazette! Until next time... Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ The Vintage Computer Festival is a celebration of computers and their history. The VCF Gazette goes out to anyone who subscribed to the VCF mailing list, and is intended to keep those interested in the VCF informed of the latest VCF events and happenings. The VCF Gazette is guaranteed to be published in a somewhat irregular manner, though we will try to maintain a quarterly schedule. If you would like to be removed from the VCF mailing list, and therefore not receive any more issues of the VCF Gazette, visit the following web page: http://www.vintage.org/remove.php ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Oct 5 06:46:06 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <20041004221351.Q83849@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041004221351.Q83849@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041005124251.111c4828@pop.freeserve.net> At 06:18 05/10/2004, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to > > form a 5m drive? > >The Amlyn drive had a cartridge holding 5 1.2M 5.25" floppies, >that could be accessed one at a time, or as if it were a 6M disk >(physically only one disk was loaded at a time). But although it >could span disks, it did not use any reasonable "RAID" method. I have two here (in Salford, UK), and an IBM XT, I rescued from eBay (for ?5.00) which I would like to pass on to anybody who can use them. (I did have some interest before, but have not heard back from the person concerned. I suspect shipping was going to be too much.) >The diskettes had a couple of extra notches cut into them, >but were otherwise normal 600 Oersted diskettes. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Oct 5 07:09:32 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6A81E335-16C7-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 05/10/2004, at 8:33 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Two stacks of 2.5" platters should fit in one 3.5" drive enclosure, and > give a slightly larger data surface as compared to a single 3.5" stack. I seem to recall that (IBM?) demonstrated a RAID based on 1.8" CF based hard drives. If they could get the amount of storage up a little (say 100G for each drive) then you could easily have a nice raid in a very small space - if you had it mounted in such a way as to allow easy removal then failures could be handled very easily. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 5 07:33:18 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com><004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: <004001c4aad7$7ea2b720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!!... Somewhat more down to earth, it would be nice to have in the Classiccmp FAQ the instructions on how to max out a system with 8? standard floppies, possibly by re-munginging that cable with the four flipped signals. This information IIRC probably came from Fred C. John A. what FAQ? From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Oct 5 07:36:44 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: Not classic software related but.. Theoretically, you could use Veritas Volume Manager on a floppy disk, divvy it up into two plex's then mirror the two plex's to each other. Oh look.. a ~700K mirrored 3.5" floppy disk.. David PS: Yes, now that I've thought of it, I'm definitely going to have to see if I can't find a VxVM eval license, and try it out here at work. :-D On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ade Vickers wrote: > At 07:22 05/10/2004, you wrote: > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > > > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided to > > form a > > > 5m drive? > > > > FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never > > mind all the lovely noises... > > It exists..... > > http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm > > > Best Regards, > Adrian Vickers. > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 5 07:31:59 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: "Removable" hard drives (was Re: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server) In-Reply-To: <20041005024553.GA3116@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041005024553.GA3116@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005072742.0557c628@pc> At 09:45 PM 10/4/2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: >RC25 anyone?!? (grinning, running and ducking) CD-RW maybe? DVD-RW maybe? DVD-RAM maybe? But you're right, you'd think there would still be a market for a removable platter or cartridge. It would need to have density and speed comparable to hard drives, though. The problem is, hard drives are so inexpensive. Don't get me started about backup for naive users. I'll start to cry. How is the average Windows user supposed to know how to backup their email, attachments and documents? Just start with "where" all those files might be... - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 5 07:45:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: PC-MOS In-Reply-To: <003e01c4a9ca$ad776ef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041005084527.0098ea20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> No, I wasn't looking for it. I found a copy and was asking what it was. Someone did want it and asked for it so I gave it to them. IIRC It was someone in Australia. I wonder if this is the copy that I sent them? Joe At 11:28 PM 10/3/04 -0500, you wrote: >I remember someone was looking for a copy of this once. Here is a boxed >original with all docs, etc. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=5128471513 &rd=1 > >Jay West > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 5 07:32:46 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005072242.05652cd0@pc> At 01:22 AM 10/5/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never >mind all the lovely noises... >Actually, you could probably optimize for seek... >Imagine a 6-foot rack of 5" (or better, 8") flops all HONK HONKing. Saw it recently on Slashdot - http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm . Someone tricked OS X into making a USB floppy RAID. - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Oct 5 08:29:49 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. References: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16738.41421.734000.923216@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "O" == O Sharp writes: O> Paul Koning observes: >> Are the DECtape marks 6 bits even on the PDP-8? That would be >> strange, it would mean there would be two mark words per 3 data >> words. O> Strange but true. I got the info from a DEC _Small Computer O> Handbook_ for 1967, and confirmed it in a later 8/I edition O> because it didn't make sense to me either. :) It does show kind O> of an odd overlap, but evidently they liked it anyway. O> What machine did DEC first use DECtape (not LINCtape) for? If it O> was something with an 18-bit word length maybe it would make O> sense, but I remember reading somewhere that it was first used on O> the PDP-5... I saw a description of DECtape compatibility going all the way back to the PDP-4, but that doesn't necessarily mean it actually shipped on that system. Thinking about the "reverse polarity clock track" thing -- the DECtape encoding scheme reverses polarity when you reverse direction (that's why there is "obverse complement"). And LINCtape "forward" is the reverse of DECtape "forward". So does that mean that, for a given absolute direction of motion (e.g., left to right) the polarity is the same? If yes, then one could read LINCtape on a DECtape drive (on any DEC machine), using the Read All command -- recovering the formatting from the mark track is then just SMOP. paul From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 5 08:56:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! >>> Never mind all the lovely noises... >>> >>> Actually, you could probably optimize for seek... >>> >>> Imagine a 6-foot rack of 5" (or better, 8") flops all HONK HONKing. What about RRPT or RSPC as a storage medium??? It should be exteremely reliable and good for archiving also.... [R.R.P.T. = Rudundant Rolls of Paper Tape] [R.S.P.C. = Redundant Stacks of Punched Cards] From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 5 08:47:58 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 04:10:26 PDT." Message-ID: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Does anyone have the capability to read 3480 tapes? Ideally, I'm looking >for someone in the Silicon Valley area who has the capability. I can read 1600bpi 2400' (or smaller) reels and put them on cd-rom. But I'm in Boston... (fedex?) I'm in the market for a desktop 800/1600/6250 scsi 9-track drive if anyone has one. -brad From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 08:55:10 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: "Removable" hard drives (was Re: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005072742.0557c628@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > At 09:45 PM 10/4/2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >RC25 anyone?!? (grinning, running and ducking) > > CD-RW maybe? DVD-RW maybe? DVD-RAM maybe? I now use ZIP and JAZ drives for this (mostly in the PDP-11 and VAX range of systems) and that works really well. Of course, capacity is not as great, but it's kinda nice to have a stack of ZIP100 disks labelled "RD53 MicroRSX V4" and such. Also, easy to xfer disk images between my lappy (which has both a ZIP and a JAZ drive) and the test/production systems ;) --f From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 5 09:00:03 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes References: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <000801c4aae3$9d6e0db0$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" > > I'm in the market for a desktop 800/1600/6250 scsi 9-track drive if anyone > has one. > I have 2 Qualstar 3412S's and 1 M4 9914. All are in good shape. The drives are still in my inventory, so I cant sell the too cheap. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 5 09:01:25 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes References: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <001901c4aae3$cde547b0$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: Re: Reading 3480 tapes > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >Does anyone have the capability to read 3480 tapes? Ideally, I'm looking > >for someone in the Silicon Valley area who has the capability. > Yeah, but I'm in Denmark... Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 08:57:16 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > What about RRPT or RSPC as a storage medium??? It should be exteremely > reliable and good for archiving also.... > > [R.R.P.T. = Rudundant Rolls of Paper Tape] > [R.S.P.C. = Redundant Stacks of Punched Cards] Be careful when you go and implement Hot Spares... I dont think these media will take heat well.... --f From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 5 09:12:11 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes In-Reply-To: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200410050912.11643.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 05 October 2004 08:47, Brad Parker wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Does anyone have the capability to read 3480 tapes? Ideally, I'm > >looking for someone in the Silicon Valley area who has the > >capability. > > I can read 1600bpi 2400' (or smaller) reels and put them on cd-rom. Errr.... IBM's 3480 tapes aren't reel-to-reel, they're a similar form factor to DLT (but a different encoding). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 5 09:34:23 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: oooh! I am going to have to try this on my iBook... Anyone have 4 more USB zip 100 drives they wanna donate? (jes kiddin) :^) On Oct 5, 2004, at 2:46 AM, Ade Vickers wrote: > At 07:22 05/10/2004, you wrote: > >> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >> >> > Wasn't there a device at one time that had 5 1.44mb floppies raided >> to form a >> > 5m drive? >> >> FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never >> mind all the lovely noises... > > It exists..... > > http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm > > > Best Regards, > Adrian Vickers. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 09:37:12 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: HELP NEEDED: DEC PRO(-3xx) INTERNALS Message-ID: Hi all, For a fun project (I am porting ULTRIX-11 to the PRO) I could use some help with figuring out some of the machines' internals. If you have info, please contact me off-list ! Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 5 09:41:21 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <9FFDAB7E-16DC-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 5, 2004, at 3:33 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters > physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just > aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... > On topic computing war story (sort of) When I worked for Calma as a computer operator I was in the office one saturday writing a "command line history" thing for my login on the vax (vms 3x) when the vax got real slow and complained that it couldn't write some file. So I went off to the computer room (raised floor, locked doors...) on arrival I found a brown haze floating in the upper 3rd of the football field sized room. That was the oxide that at one time held the contents of the system disk. No more playing for me that day :^( It only took a day for us to replace the 400mb drive that had crashed with a new "eagle" that looked to the vax as 2 400mb drives. Each night at midnight the whole content of one of the drives was copied to the other. Made file restores much easier. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 5 09:47:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 5, 2004, at 6:56 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: > [R.R.P.T. = Rudundant Rolls of Paper Tape] > [R.S.P.C. = Redundant Stacks of Punched Cards] > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes to laser printer. Backups would be read in with a scanner.. Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. One way to strike a blow against the paperless office. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 09:59:44 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes > to laser printer. > > Backups would be read in with a scanner.. > > Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. > One way to strike a blow against the paperless office. I actually have a customer who does something like that!!! They do a "paper dump" of some critical (to them) inventory stats each evening, and those printouts (which are standard A4 forms) contain only machine-readable info consisting of barcodes and something that looks like, indeed, papertape "strings" They have a scanner thing that can read those forms. I believe every day, the forms from the previous day get sent to HQ, by regular mail ;) --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 5 10:00:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <9FFDAB7E-16DC-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <9FFDAB7E-16DC-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1096988405.16782.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-05 at 07:41 -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: > On Oct 5, 2004, at 3:33 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters > > physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just > > aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... > > > > On topic computing war story (sort of) > > on arrival I found a brown haze floating in the upper > 3rd of the football field sized room. That was the oxide > that at one time held the contents of the system disk. Heh, nice one. I've still got a copy of James Willing's account (posted 6 years ago to this list) about a drive shipped with a Northstar machine way back when that exploded in quite a spectacular way. Makes for an interesting read. About the most exciting these days are capacitors letting go in things - computers just aren't dangerous any more! :-) cheers Jules From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Oct 5 11:31:40 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. In-Reply-To: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4162CC6C.1020206@gmx.net> Yes even on the pdp8 DECtape marks are 6 bits (6 lines) although a 12 bit word only takes 4 lines (12 / 3). The mark tracks however are only used while seeking (positioning tape) and with the td8e controller they are checked on every SLF (single line flag) event. While reading data the software only checks for QLF (quad line flag) events. Although I reengineered it for my td8e simulator Bob Supnik now has the better documentation in the simh sources. There is an old thread about the same subject (back in 2003?) where Al states that the LINCtape and DECtape drives are physically the same. And I believe to remember that some guys used DECtapes on pdp8s to read and write LINCtapes - never done it myself. Gerold (pdp8.de) Paul Koning wrote: > >Are the DECtape marks 6 bits even on the PDP-8? That would be >strange, it would mean there would be two mark words per 3 data words. > > paul > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 5 11:47:19 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:51 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: <4162D017.4080108@mdrconsult.com> David Holland wrote: > Not classic software related but.. > > Theoretically, you could use Veritas Volume Manager > on a floppy disk, divvy it up into two plex's then > mirror the two plex's to each other. > > Oh look.. a ~700K mirrored 3.5" floppy disk.. > > > David > > PS: Yes, now that I've thought of it, I'm definitely > going to have to see if I can't find a VxVM eval > license, and try it out here at work. :-D Got a Linux box and a USB hub? Linux sees all USB-attached storage as SCSI devices, which means you should be able to partition a floppy disk in a USB drive. Hang a few floppy drives off your USB hub, partition each disk and voila! Software floppy RAID. I think I'll get my coat. Doc From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Tue Oct 5 11:52:42 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: reading 3480 tapes In-Reply-To: <200410051700.i95H03nE080278@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005501c4aafb$bba5b950$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> We're on the East Coast, but can read all sorts of tapes. (well, maybe not quite all :-) We've even done some Vydec disks recently, if anybody can remember those beasts. Have a look at www.mullermedia.com. Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 5 11:59:48 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: PC-MOS Message-ID: <4162D304.D19F01E4@rain.org> IIRC, PC-MOS consisted of more than just the software. One of the hardware cards was basically a multi-serial port card, and I don't remember the other one. One of my clients was running PC-MOS, and they were commenting on how slow it was (running on an original 6 MHz IBM AT that I currently have) with only one workstation connected (circa 1986). One night, I went in and ran a disk defrag program, and the next day, the comments had changed to how quickly this was running :). > No, I wasn't looking for it. I found a copy and was asking what it was. > Someone did want it and asked for it so I gave it to them. IIRC It was > someone in Australia. I wonder if this is the copy that I sent them? > > Joe > > > At 11:28 PM 10/3/04 -0500, you wrote: > >I remember someone was looking for a copy of this once. Here is a boxed > >original with all docs, etc. > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4619&item=5128471513 > &rd=1 > > > >Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 5 12:01:06 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005072242.05652cd0@pc> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005072242.05652cd0@pc> Message-ID: <4162D352.5040209@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 01:22 AM 10/5/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > >>FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never >>mind all the lovely noises... >>Actually, you could probably optimize for seek... >>Imagine a 6-foot rack of 5" (or better, 8") flops all HONK HONKing. > > > Saw it recently on Slashdot - http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm . > > Someone tricked OS X into making a USB floppy RAID. Darn, shoulda read all my mail before I popped off. :) Doc From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Tue Oct 5 13:46:55 2004 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: cray3 part on ebay Message-ID: <285.774T2750T11864114rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> Hi have anyone seen this ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11223&item=5724064853&rd=1 regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: rachael@rachael.dyndns.org url: http://rachael.dyndns.org fido: 2:237/38.8 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 5 13:08:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Syntertek & Rockwell Message-ID: <200410051808.LAA15182@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Richard I was just looking for Synertek stuff and came across your page on the R65 and SYM-1. I noticed that you had the manual for PL/65. I'd been looking for this info for some time. I have the PROMs but didn't have the manual. I think I have the Rockwell manual for the Forth. I'm not setup to scan stuff but maybe we can setup someway to get them scanned. I live in Santa Cruz Calif. I've been getting a floppy disk interface up and running for the SYM-1. It is a slow project that I've been fiddling with for some time. I have one of the PerSYMone ( I think that is the right spelling ) FDC-1 cards that is intended to work with the SYM-1 monitor ROM. The card I had came from Synertek and had all the socketed parts removed. I've been collecting the various pieces needed to get it running. I located a dump of the original ROM and also a modified DOS that can be used as well. I've been having problems finding a DP8303 bidi-bus buffer but I think I can work around that. I disassembled the code on the ROM and figured out what the address decoder PROM needed ( a 82S129 ). I'm at the point now that I just need to connect up a bunch of stuff ( powersupply, KTM-2, SYM-1, FDC-1 and floppy drive ) to try it out. Dwight From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Oct 5 13:11:33 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: cray3 part on ebay In-Reply-To: <285.774T2750T11864114rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041005140825.03105f00@192.168.0.1> At 02:46 PM 10/5/2004, you wrote: >have anyone seen this ? Cray isn't in my search strings. Maybe it should be. Cool! The picture of Cray and the black box is just what I picture in my mind when I read Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar. 1 ns per foot. A fast computer has to be small. Awesome (not in an air-headed way) , thanks for pointing that out! Ed K. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 5 13:14:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes > > to laser printer. > > > > Backups would be read in with a scanner.. > > > > Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. > > One way to strike a blow against the paperless office. > > I actually have a customer who does something like that!!! > > They do a "paper dump" of some critical (to them) inventory stats > each evening, and those printouts (which are standard A4 forms) > contain only machine-readable info consisting of barcodes and > something that looks like, indeed, papertape "strings" > > They have a scanner thing that can read those forms. I believe > every day, the forms from the previous day get sent to HQ, by > regular mail ;) Sounds intriguing. I'd be interested to know what hardware they are using. Certainly not the Cauzin SOftStrip? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Oct 5 12:51:28 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 07:47:01 PDT." <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200410051751.SAA02663@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson > > On Oct 5, 2004, at 6:56 AM, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > [R.R.P.T. = Rudundant Rolls of Paper Tape] > > [R.S.P.C. = Redundant Stacks of Punched Cards] > > > > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes > to laser printer. > > Backups would be read in with a scanner.. > > Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. > One way to strike a blow > against the paperless office. I remember reading about a system like that, wrote data as a pattern of dots on a laser printer and read using a primitive scanner (it was a while ago and definitely on-topic). Developed by someone in Germany I think. A query in various newsgroups a while back turned up no info. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Oct 5 13:16:25 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: Message-ID: <16738.58617.651584.23301@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >> On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >> >> > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that >> writes > to laser printer. >> > >> > Backups would be read in with a scanner.. >> > >> > Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per >> page. > One way to strike a blow against the paperless office. >> >> I actually have a customer who does something like that!!! >> >> They do a "paper dump" of some critical (to them) inventory stats >> each evening, and those printouts (which are standard A4 forms) >> contain only machine-readable info consisting of barcodes and >> something that looks like, indeed, papertape "strings" >> >> They have a scanner thing that can read those forms. I believe >> every day, the forms from the previous day get sent to HQ, by >> regular mail ;) Something related: the EFF and PGP teams used paper to export software that was otherwise (possibly) subject to export restrictions. There's a nicely crafted standard way to bootstrap the OCR process, and ways to capture spaces accurately, handle checksums, etc. There's a good description in the book "Cracking DES" (which is very much worth reading for other reasons). paul From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 13:27:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters > physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just > aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... DAMN RIGHT! Crappy PC/Mac hardware with stupid power cubes! At least CRTs can give you a shock, these wimpy laptop things barely hurt when used as bludgeons. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 13:37:22 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? Message-ID: I've got a few (meaning, one or two) old floppies of mine that I found, and hope are still readable, one with the sole copy I know of of an 8086 ROM monitor debugger I used to bring up a lot of machines with. It's stored on a 360K 9-sector/track standard-formatted MSDOS diskette with the right fatID and all that, but it does NOT contain the IBM formatted crap in the boot sector that many PCDOS implementations require. Meaning, it will read fine (assuming it's still good) on MSDOS but probably not PCDOS. (On PCDOS diskettes like this generate something like "unformatted" error, Retry Ignore Abort.) If anyone with such a capability could slurp off the source (text) files and simply email them to me, and toss the original media, I'd appreciate it. I'm in Los Angeles, but anywhere in North America would be cheap postage. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 13:38:57 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> References: <20041005015415.32114.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> <004101c4aa80$511198a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041005104406.01d56ec0@slave> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ade Vickers wrote: > > FLOPPY RAID! WHAT A GREAT IDEA!!! It would be fun to watch! Never > > mind all the lovely noises... > > It exists..... > > http://ohlssonvox.8k.com/fdd_raid.htm That's really sick! From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 13:45:11 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes to > laser printer. Not sure about toner longevity, but it's otherwise not a joke. > Backups would be read in with a scanner.. > > Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. A size dot addressable? Don't think so... reliably, a few K, or tens of K. Maybe 100K with a proprietary wacko scheme. Better yet, good quality text, human and machine readable, redundant, copyable, etc etc ... Density isn't the only metric... From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 13:46:42 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: FW: DecTape & LincTape. In-Reply-To: <4162CC6C.1020206@gmx.net> References: <16737.60671.421000.923464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4162CC6C.1020206@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Gerold Pauler wrote: > There is an old thread about the same subject (back in 2003?) where Al > states that the LINCtape and DECtape drives are physically the same. Oh they're definitely physically the same. From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 5 14:06:33 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <200410051751.SAA02663@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200410051751.SAA02663@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <4162F0B9.8070206@ecubics.com> Stan Barr wrote: >>Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. >>One way to strike a blow >>against the paperless office. > > I remember reading about a system like that, wrote data as a pattern of > dots on a laser printer and read using a primitive scanner (it was a > while ago and definitely on-topic). Developed by someone in Germany > I think. A query in various newsgroups a while back turned up no info. A german computer magazine published the listings this way. (I think it was the "mc"). You scanned the page in, and there was a software downloadable, which made same "meaningfull" files out of this. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 5 14:11:43 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? References: Message-ID: <007d01c4ab0f$275e3100$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 8:37 PM Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? > I've got a few (meaning, one or two) old floppies of mine that > I found, and hope are still readable, one with the sole copy > I know of of an 8086 ROM monitor debugger I used to bring up > a lot of machines with. If nobody else reacts, you're very welcome to send them to me (Denmark) Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Oct 5 14:06:56 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:27 PM Subject: now there's a good head crash > DAMN RIGHT! Crappy PC/Mac hardware with stupid power cubes! At > least CRTs can give you a shock, these wimpy laptop things > barely hurt when used as bludgeons. Most dangerous hardware in my collection: DEC RA82 Hard Drive - With that big AC motor and pully, I'm sure it would take your arm off if you ventured inside. Quadex Q5000 Mini - Even grounded properly, touching the sides gives you a nasty shock. Fortunately you don't have to touch it much once it's running. HP 7XXX plotter - gave me a nasty papercut once while I prematurely grabbed at it's output. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 5 14:19:13 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? Message-ID: <20041005191912.DZVB11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 11:37 05/10/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a few (meaning, one or two) old floppies of mine that >I found, and hope are still readable, one with the sole copy >I know of of an 8086 ROM monitor debugger I used to bring up >a lot of machines with. > >It's stored on a 360K 9-sector/track standard-formatted MSDOS >diskette with the right fatID and all that, but it does NOT >contain the IBM formatted crap in the boot sector that many >PCDOS implementations require. > >Meaning, it will read fine (assuming it's still good) on MSDOS >but probably not PCDOS. (On PCDOS diskettes like this generate >something like "unformatted" error, Retry Ignore Abort.) > >If anyone with such a capability could slurp off the source >(text) files and simply email them to me, and toss the original >media, I'd appreciate it. I'm in Los Angeles, but anywhere in >North America would be cheap postage. Hi Tom, Have you tried hooking up a 5.25" drive to winblows and see if it can read the files off? I'd also bet that anyone with Linux could mount them and read them for you. If you can't find anyone closer, I'm sure I could get the data off (I've written my own MS-DOS compatible FAT file systems). I'm located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada - give me a buzz off-list if you want to persue this. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Oct 5 14:21:55 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041005151943.0306b7c0@192.168.0.1> At 02:37 PM 10/5/2004, you wrote: >Meaning, it will read fine (assuming it's still good) on MSDOS >but probably not PCDOS. (On PCDOS diskettes like this generate >something like "unformatted" error, Retry Ignore Abort.) > >If anyone with such a capability could slurp off the source >(text) files and simply email them to me, and toss the original >media, I'd appreciate it. I'm in Los Angeles, but anywhere in >North America would be cheap postage. I have MSDOS and low density (360K) 5 1/2" floppy drives. Will that read it? If so send them over. Anyway to test before you send you one of's? I've got 360K floppies with HardFacts on them I think. Ed K. Macro Inc. 1730 Augusta Road West Columbia, South Carolina 29169 USA 803-796-8858 (Voice, Message and Fax) Pres@macro-inc.com www.macro-inc.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 5 14:23:36 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4162F4B8.80404@mdrconsult.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > I've got a few (meaning, one or two) old floppies of mine that > I found, and hope are still readable, one with the sole copy > I know of of an 8086 ROM monitor debugger I used to bring up > a lot of machines with. > > It's stored on a 360K 9-sector/track standard-formatted MSDOS > diskette with the right fatID and all that, but it does NOT > contain the IBM formatted crap in the boot sector that many > PCDOS implementations require. > > Meaning, it will read fine (assuming it's still good) on MSDOS > but probably not PCDOS. (On PCDOS diskettes like this generate > something like "unformatted" error, Retry Ignore Abort.) > > If anyone with such a capability could slurp off the source > (text) files and simply email them to me, and toss the original > media, I'd appreciate it. I'm in Los Angeles, but anywhere in > North America would be cheap postage. I have a transcription box running MSDOS v6.22 and Linux, with a drive that will read 360KB disks. I'd probably image the disks to a file under Linux and mess with the image files, hopefully limiting the number of reads on your disks to one. If you don't get somebody local to do it contact me offlist. Doc From jan at jandujardin.com Sun Oct 3 13:05:42 2004 From: jan at jandujardin.com (Jan Dujardin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Plato Message-ID: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hi, I found your message below while googling around for Plato information. You probabley already know, but there's an emulated Cyber running PLATO online now at http://www.cyber1.org Greetings, Jan. From: Claude.W cctech@classiccmp.org Date: Fri Aug 2 14:14:31 2002 Subject: Plato terminal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Id love to see the old Plato running again. Does anyone here know anyone that worked or was involved in Plato closely and might be able to get some kinda "emulator" project going off the ground? Writing up a terminal emulator might not be dramatic but emulating the cybers that ran plato might be more of a challenge... This would be totaly wild and while I dont have a lotta time for stuff like this...this one would probably get some attention from me... And if I could find listing of some games I had written, Id go totaly wild...SPACE ATTACK was one of them. Seems TELUQ (Tele-Universitee here in Quebec) was very involved in Plato. But I have yet to find some people from "back then".... Claude -- Jan Dujardin | http://www.jandujardin.com From gslick at gte.net Sun Oct 3 14:33:52 2004 From: gslick at gte.net (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key Message-ID: <002401c4a97f$eaacf240$6601a8c0@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> Anyone happen to have a spare HP 2100A front panel key or know where I can get one? The HP 2100A I acquired is locked in the OFF position and disassembling the switch to bypass the lock doesn't look like too much fun. I think someone offered a key when I first asked about this a long time ago but I didn't take them up on the offer at the time. -Glen From dennis at pcde.inka.de Sun Oct 3 14:22:26 2004 From: dennis at pcde.inka.de (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Anyone interested in this Sun Sparc systems? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041003192226.GA9559@aton.pcde.inka.de> Hi, On Sun, Oct 03, 2004 at 11:47:14AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Aries/ The first one has nice CPUs: http://www.siconic.com/computers/Aries/P1010089.JPG If you don't know what to do with them let me know. I still have a SPARCstation 10 that could use some more power. However, what's this box? http://www.siconic.com/computers/Aries/P1010092.JPG The first one is a SPARC 10 or 20 clone, but this mainboard looks unfamiliar to me. mfg Dennis -- There is certainly no purpose in remaining in the dark except long enough to clear from the mind the illusion of ever having been in the light. T.S. Eliot From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Oct 3 20:04:11 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <415F2FD9.4010209@gjcp.net> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> <9FB25FC6-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415F2FD9.4010209@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4681m056cs6pnuaipn5rdee8us5ncovdp9@4ax.com> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:46:49 +0100, you wrote: >Ron Hudson wrote: > >>> and simh would run in single-user mode. This would, of course, be silly. >> >> >> why silly? if it would work. >> > >Because none of the userspace daemons would be running. Saying >"init=/bin/sh" is a great way to get the root filesystem and a command >prompt and *nothing* else - the init scripts are never run, so no other >filesystems are mounted, no kernel modules are loaded, nothing like >that. The kernel loads, brings the console up to a known state, and >then forks off to the shell. Normally, of course, it would fork init, >which would then read inittab and then the startup scripts. > >Gordon. Why would the userspace daemons be needed? Monolythic kernel. No modules. Filesystem support built in emulator. etc. etc. This is somebody who wants bare access to the hardware, the thinnest possible layer of emulation. Probably they'd be better off launching it from a DOS session, actually, since Linux isn't really a compact 'program loader' and that's about all DOS really is. Using Linux that way would be a waste. From david at dynamicconcepts.us Mon Oct 4 08:36:32 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: DecTape & LincTape. Message-ID: All, I am tring to remember, what are the differences between DecTape and LincTape..... TIA. From patrice.ulrich at eost.u-strasbg.fr Mon Oct 4 09:00:37 2004 From: patrice.ulrich at eost.u-strasbg.fr (BOULOT) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods Message-ID: <41615785.9070109@eost.u-strasbg.fr> hello i have an old tek 1230 but without pods ! funny i was searching the internet for pods as i saw that you are searching too. Maybe did you found a reseller, or maybe do you have a tip or explanation on how it works to give to me. Thanks -- Patrice ULRICH EOST - Institut Physique du Globe de Strasbourg Laboratoire Proche Surface (UMR 7516 CNRS-ULP) 5, rue Ren? Descartes F-67084 STRASBOURG Cedex FAX 03 90 24 01 25 Email : patrice.ulrich@eost.u-strasbg.fr From ross at ingram.co.nz Mon Oct 4 19:42:34 2004 From: ross at ingram.co.nz (Ross Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: 20,046 page doc archive still available Message-ID: Hello John I came across your post via Google. I had an Ohio Scientific C1P and C4P about 25 years ago. I have been trying to find manuals for both these units just for the sake of nostalgia. Have you any idea if anyone has posted these manuals apart from in the 20046 page document you mention? If not I would be grateful if you could point me towards the secret link you mentioned. Kind Regards - Ross From caa007216 at ono.com Tue Oct 5 05:50:21 2004 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Asunto: PDP-11 boards to be saved from scrapper In-Reply-To: <41627B04.9010702@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <415C436800002565@mta01.ono.com> I have no problem to do it, but the seller limits the sell to US sellers. Cheers Sergio >-- Mensaje original -- >Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 03:44:20 -0700 >From: William Maddox >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: PDP-11 boards to be saved from scrapper >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >The current high bidder on this item, jandbyates, appears to be a gold >scrapper. Any PDP-11 fans want to bid on these? I have no connection >with the seller, I just don't want to see a scrapper get these boards, >even though I have no use for them. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5723156389&rd=1 > >--Bill > From caa007216 at ono.com Tue Oct 5 07:23:59 2004 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Microsoft Patent over FAT denied In-Reply-To: <6A81E335-16C7-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <415C4368000026E3@mta01.ono.com> It appears than the US Patents Office has deniend the Patent over FTA from Microsoft (at least initially). What's about this matter ? Cheers Sergio From jim at smithy.com Tue Oct 5 14:34:27 2004 From: jim at smithy.com (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU Message-ID: <1097004866.2770.39.camel@localhost> Anybody know where I can find documentation for these CPUs? I have some Z8002's that are just waiting to be wired up to a board...if only I knew how to use them! I have the datasheet, but no good programming info. Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 5 14:44:49 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Microsoft Patent over FAT denied References: <415C4368000026E3@mta01.ono.com> Message-ID: <00a701c4ab13$c6ed3820$f92c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "SP" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Microsoft Patent over FAT denied > > It appears than the US Patents Office has deniend the Patent over FTA from > Microsoft (at least initially). What's about this matter ? > > Cheers > Sergio > > > I think McDonalds owns the patent on FAT in the USA. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Oct 5 14:48:29 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes In-Reply-To: <200410051347.i95Dlw4o001190@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > I can read 1600bpi 2400' (or smaller) reels and put them on cd-rom. > > But I'm in Boston... (fedex?) > > I'm in the market for a desktop 800/1600/6250 scsi 9-track drive if anyone > has one. 3480s are not 9 track - I think they are 18 track. I still have to put my 3480s together. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Tue Oct 5 14:58:36 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: <200410042234.i94MY8Tg023993@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <009101c4ab15$b42541e0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Frankly this is a somewhat bogus message, since I've already talked to Brad, but.... Just thought I'd "officially" reply on the listserve that we at www.mullermedia.com do lots of different tapes and logical formats, so keep us in mind. Chris -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brad Parker Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:34 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: In search of... DECtape drives Paul Koning wrote: > >On the other hand, he or one of his friends once put some pants in the >laundry, only to discover afterwards that one of them had a DECtape in >the pocket. That tape still worked just fine afterwards. huh. I've taken to 'baking' old tapes these days but I never concidered washing them with my pants. on a more serious note: Anyone on the boston or mass/nh/ct area have a working 9-track drive which can read 800bpi tapes? I can read 1600's fine but not 800's :-( -brad From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 5 15:01:33 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes References: Message-ID: <00a501c4ab16$1d825f10$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: Re: Reading 3480 tapes > > 3480s are not 9 track - I think they are 18 track. Yep, 3480's are 18 track, and 3490's are 36 track, and come in cassettes. Reel-to-reel tapes come in a variety of model names, but the one that springs to mind is the 3420 tape drive, but for the life of me I cant remember what they were called on 360's. 2450?? The 2540 was a cardreader/-puncher Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 5 15:01:12 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key Message-ID: <200410052001.NAA15248@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Glen If you don't find someone with a key, most any lock smith will make one for around $15 or so. I've had two keys made for me. One was a round one and the other was a double sided. You just need to bring the lock to a good smith. Dwight >From: "Glen Slick" > >Anyone happen to have a spare HP 2100A front panel key or know where I can >get one? > >The HP 2100A I acquired is locked in the OFF position and disassembling the >switch to bypass the lock doesn't look like too much fun. I think someone >offered a key when I first asked about this a long time ago but I didn't >take them up on the offer at the time. > >-Glen > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 5 15:06:46 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU Message-ID: <200410052006.NAA15268@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Try: http://www.kranenborg.org/z8000/ and ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/olivetti_m20/ Later Dwight >From: "Jim Donoghue" > >Anybody know where I can find documentation for these CPUs? I have some >Z8002's that are just waiting to be wired up to a board...if only I knew >how to use them! I have the datasheet, but no good programming info. > >Jim > > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:28:38 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU In-Reply-To: <1097004866.2770.39.camel@localhost> References: <1097004866.2770.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: http://xfer.curie.fr/get/krFI099IBnj/z8001-2.pdf The Thomson datasheet, 1999, stolen from http://www.datasheetarchive.com . Stephane On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:34:27 -0400, Jim Donoghue wrote: > Anybody know where I can find documentation for these CPUs? I have some > Z8002's that are just waiting to be wired up to a board...if only I knew > how to use them! I have the datasheet, but no good programming info. > > Jim > > -- Stephane Paris, France. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 5 15:28:44 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:37:22 PDT." Message-ID: <200410052028.i95KSilZ026046@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > >It's stored on a 360K 9-sector/track standard-formatted MSDOS >diskette with the right fatID and all that, but it does NOT >contain the IBM formatted crap in the boot sector that many >PCDOS implementations require. Have you tried making an image copy with linux? This would require you to boot linux on a machine with that sort of drive, but you should be able to make an image. You might then be able to fix up the image with the linux suite "mtools" and read the files off. I have booted linux on 8mb 25mhz 386 machines w/5 1/4" drives for this purpose. I did it from a single floppy (and used nfs, ok, as a file system). -brad From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 5 16:06:25 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU Message-ID: <200410052106.OAA15336@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jim If you were doing 8002's I'd be glad to help you get a CP/M-8000 up and running. Much of the code is written for the segmented machine so it would need to be converted to non-segemented for the 8001. It could still be done but would require a lot more work and you'd need a reasonable bank switching setup. I also don't have source for all of it so it would require a little reverse engineering. Those pieces that I don't have source for, I do have object libraries so building a 8001 setup isn't as much of an issue. Dwight >From: "Jim Donoghue" > >Anybody know where I can find documentation for these CPUs? I have some >Z8002's that are just waiting to be wired up to a board...if only I knew >how to use them! I have the datasheet, but no good programming info. > >Jim > > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 5 16:24:36 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Reading 3480 tapes References: Message-ID: <41631114.62712F9B@msm.umr.edu> sellam, email me if you still have a need, I have some sources with hercules attached 3480 tapes that could convert them to AWS for you, or could see if they have means to process them in whatever manner you need. I am in the process or getting a fujitsu drive, but anticipate some teething problems before I have it online. in a month if you still are in need, I may have it online. Jim Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Does anyone have the capability to read 3480 tapes? Ideally, I'm looking > for someone in the Silicon Valley area who has the capability. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 5 16:25:54 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server References: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > >>I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes to >>laser printer. > > > Not sure about toner longevity, but it's otherwise not a joke. > > > >>Backups would be read in with a scanner.. >> >>Hmm limit usable area to 8"x10" = 80 sq in. 600 dpi = 48mb per page. > > > A size dot addressable? Don't think so... reliably, a few K, > or tens of K. Maybe 100K with a proprietary wacko scheme. > > Better yet, good quality text, human and machine readable, > redundant, copyable, etc etc ... > > Density isn't the only metric... > BYTE magizine years ago had a printed media format at one time. you may want to check on what they did. BYTE also had something once on a very low cost write only media, I wonder what happend to them. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 16:40:51 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? In-Reply-To: <200410052028.i95KSilZ026046@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410052028.i95KSilZ026046@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > Have you tried making an image copy with linux? The last time I folded a diskette to fit into a CD-R slot, I got only read errors, and the tray stuck. (Seriously, I haven't owned a 5.25" floppy for > 5 years. Hell, my main machine, a Sony VX89, has no disk drives but the infernal HD. Virtually everything is virtual (though most of it lacks any real virtue) here). From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 5 16:49:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > BYTE magizine years ago had a printed media format at one time. > you may want to check on what they did. BYTE also had something > once on a very low cost write only media, I wonder what happend to > them. I remember that! It was some bar code variant, I think the code was some BASIC hack small enough to type in. I have no recollection what the hardware was though. 1980s. Too bad flexidisks (audio) died such an early death. Clearly it wasn't a medium that was going to last that long, but the main problem was that the major flexi press in the U.S., some outfit in Florida, were fundamentalist christians and refused to press things they didn't like, all my friends in punk bands constantly argued with them. Flexi-floppies (Kansas City format) I think was even talked about, once. It's a sucky medium, but you can staple it into magazines! But now you get CDRs in junkmail. Ahh, progress. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 5 17:07:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Z8001/Z8002 CPU In-Reply-To: <1097004866.2770.39.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041005180701.0097b400@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, I have several of them posted on my site at . Joe At 03:34 PM 10/5/04 -0400, you wrote: >Anybody know where I can find documentation for these CPUs? I have some >Z8002's that are just waiting to be wired up to a board...if only I knew >how to use them! I have the datasheet, but no good programming info. > >Jim > > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 5 17:07:29 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Can anyone read a 360K 5.25" NON-IBM floppy for me? Message-ID: <41631B21.38518363@rain.org> I have "several" MS-DOS machines with 5 1/4" floppy drives that would probably do the job, and most versions of DOS from 1.1 on up through 6.22. I'll be down in LA this Saturday (Fullerton) and could bring a machine, or we could meet and I could get the floppies, or ... :). Or you could mail them up here (Santa Barbara), and I could retrieve the text files. Let me know if you still need help with this. Marvin > From: Tom Jennings > I've got a few (meaning, one or two) old floppies of mine that > I found, and hope are still readable, one with the sole copy > I know of of an 8086 ROM monitor debugger I used to bring up > a lot of machines with. > > It's stored on a 360K 9-sector/track standard-formatted MSDOS > diskette with the right fatID and all that, but it does NOT > contain the IBM formatted crap in the boot sector that many > PCDOS implementations require. > > Meaning, it will read fine (assuming it's still good) on MSDOS > but probably not PCDOS. (On PCDOS diskettes like this generate > something like "unformatted" error, Retry Ignore Abort.) > > If anyone with such a capability could slurp off the source > (text) files and simply email them to me, and toss the original > media, I'd appreciate it. I'm in Los Angeles, but anywhere in > North America would be cheap postage. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 5 17:14:59 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:52 2005 Subject: Other PDP11 simulators In-Reply-To: <4681m056cs6pnuaipn5rdee8us5ncovdp9@4ax.com> References: <85567008-1408-11D9-B99A-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415E9747.40501@gjcp.net> <9FB25FC6-148B-11D9-99A9-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <415F2FD9.4010209@gjcp.net> <4681m056cs6pnuaipn5rdee8us5ncovdp9@4ax.com> Message-ID: <41631CE3.4070107@gjcp.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > Why would the userspace daemons be needed? > > Monolythic kernel. No modules. > Filesystem support built in emulator. > etc. etc. > > This is somebody who wants bare access to the hardware, the thinnest > possible layer of emulation. Probably they'd be better off launching > it from a DOS session, actually, since Linux isn't really a compact > 'program loader' and that's about all DOS really is. Using Linux that > way would be a waste. > Well, if you want to re-invent the wheel, go right ahead. Using the Linux kernel (or indeed any other Unix kernel, I would choose NetBSD myself) would give you some hardware support, networking if you wanted it, process separation if you think it's a good idea, and a lot more besides. If you're happy to write a filesystem from scratch, and stick with only using BIOS calls (firmware BIOS at that, so no file handling for you!) then yes, you could just write it to load as an "operating system" in its own right. You could make it a standalone DOS application that would use normal DOS calls too. Wouldn't it just be simpler to use a normal application running on a normal operating system? Gordon. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 5 17:20:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods In-Reply-To: <41615785.9070109@eost.u-strasbg.fr> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041005182022.00937bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hello Patrice, Your message went to a mailing list but I'm probably one of the ones that was discussing the Tek 1230 pods. Strange as it sounds, I have some pods, the case and some ROMs but I don't have the analyzer. No, my stuff isn't for sale! One of thse days I'll get one of the analyzers. I have several working Gould, HP and other analyzers so finding a 1230 isn't a priority. There are LOTS of people that have the analyzers but without the pods, it's a very common problem. The dealers that have pods want more for them than what a complete LA with all the accessories would cost. My advice is to NEVER buy a LA without the pods, wire lead sets and grabbers and other parts that you need. It's just too expensive to buy the buy the accessories separately. Your best best would be to buy a complete LA and just save your's for parts if you ever need them. Joe At 04:00 PM 10/4/04 +0200, you wrote: >hello >i have an old tek 1230 but without pods ! funny >i was searching the internet for pods as i saw that you are searching too. >Maybe did you found a reseller, or maybe do you have a tip or >explanation on >how it works to give to me. > >Thanks > >-- >Patrice ULRICH >EOST - Institut Physique du Globe de Strasbourg >Laboratoire Proche Surface (UMR 7516 CNRS-ULP) >5, rue Ren? Descartes >F-67084 STRASBOURG Cedex >FAX 03 90 24 01 25 >Email : patrice.ulrich@eost.u-strasbg.fr > > > From dmhills at attglobal.net Tue Oct 5 18:17:51 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tom Jennings wrote: > >I remember that! It was some bar code variant, I think the >code was some BASIC hack small enough to type in. I have no >recollection what the hardware was though. 1980s. Cauzin SoftStrip. Basically a 2-D barcode, read with a handheld scanner. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Oct 5 17:20:25 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Need to know DDS drive used to write backup tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00ef01c4a742$e305e130$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1096588692.9136.70.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On that subject, can anyone shed light on what appears to be a common > > failure mode for DLT7000 drives? I have (2) which misbehave in the same > > manner. At powerup, the head recalibrates (bzzzzzttt), the door lock > > solenoid activates and the green LED on the bottom right lights. However, > > all the density and tape type LEDS on the left simply flash in > > sync approx. 2x per second. An inserted tape will load, but that's all > > she wrote. No track calibration, no shoeshine - nothing. Exact same > > symptoms on both units. > > > > One was working until the power was accidently interrupted in the midst of > > a backup. The second was a $5.00 swap-meet item picked up in the hope of > > yielding parts to get the first working . > > I don't happen to have the manual handy, but have the drives swallowed the > tape leader? It's a bit of a pain in the neck to restring the leader on a > DLT7000 compared to a TK50, but it's still not that hard. When you look in > the drive, you should see something that looks like the bottom end of the > following: > http://zane.brouhaha.com/~healyzh/TK50-Leader.gif > Unfortunately, that's not the problem. The leader is in place and, as I mentioned in my first post, it does properly load the tape and wind forward for a bit. On a working drive, it begins to shoe-shine back and forth until it calibrates itself. The bad drives just sit there blinking until I hit the unload button. Do these things use holes in the tape to locate BOM, or is it magnetically sensed? Steve From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 5 17:37:23 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041005182022.00937bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >>> Your message went to a mailing list but I'm probably one >>> of the ones that was discussing the Tek 1230 pods. Strange >>> as it sounds, I have some pods, the case and some ROMs but >>> I don't have the analyzer. No, my stuff isn't for sale! One >>> of thse days I'll get one of the analyzers. I have several >>> working Gould, HP and other analyzers so finding a 1230 >>> isn't a priority. There are LOTS of people that have the >>> analyzers but without the pods, it's a very common problem. >>> The dealers that have pods want more for them than what a >>> complete LA with all the accessories would cost. My advice >>> is to NEVER buy a LA without the pods, wire lead sets and >>> grabbers and other parts that you need. It's just too >>> expensive to buy the buy the accessories separately. Your >>> best best would be to buy a complete LA and just save >>> your's for parts if you ever need them. >>> Or be on the lookout for a Tek 1230 that has just died...Put the word out to people that have one...Often when something like this dies it just goes in the garbage. Make sure that everyone you know that knows someone that has one knows that you will give them CASH for the entire kit and kaboodle even though the analyzer itself has died [then you can scavange the carcass for parts] I have used this approach many times [on computer related and other stuff] and it WORKS! From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Oct 5 17:30:00 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Don Hills wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: >> >> I remember that! It was some bar code variant, I think the > > Cauzin SoftStrip. Basically a 2-D barcode, read with a handheld scanner. They had one of the all-time stupidest (IMHO) advertising tag-lines of all the national media campaigns: "It's amazing what you can reveal when you Strip!" With, of course, the obligatory photo of The Girl That Nerds Will Never Get Within 10 Meters Of.... Cheers Semaphore From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 5 17:57:41 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:58:36 EDT." <009101c4ab15$b42541e0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200410052257.i95MvfGF025762@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Chris Muller" wrote: >Frankly this is a somewhat bogus message, since I've already talked to Brad, >but.... yea, and you didn't even offer to wash my tapes with your pants! :-) (no, actually, you were *extrermely* helpful - far more that the local transfer company I talked to yesterday. thanks!) -brad >Just thought I'd "officially" reply on the listserve that we at >www.mullermedia.com do lots of different tapes and logical formats, so keep >us in mind. > >Chris From ss at allegro.com Tue Oct 5 18:17:02 2004 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) Message-ID: <4162C8FE.5646.670B503@localhost> Hi, Does anyone know what 4 quick beeps at power on means for a Commodore PET 4032? When I hit the power switch, the 4 beeps come immediately, and then nothing ... no sound, and nothing at all on the CRT. This is a new-to-me 4032, allegedly working. thanks, Stan From cmcnabb at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 19:27:26 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Teletype Available Message-ID: <145cecdd041005172743adb0dd@mail.gmail.com> My lovely spouse has finally laid down the law on the computer collection. I've pondered for weeks the best way to move the stuff out, and I think I've settled on a silent auction here on the classic comp mailing list. This will (hopefully) keep it out of the hands of scrappers and intact, since most of it still works, and I'm not really looking for Ebay prices, just a new home and maybe my investment back. So here is the deal. I'll accept bids for one week after an item is posted. I'd prefer the winner pick the item up, but I can deliver anywhere within about a 700 mile radius of Blacksburg, VA. Elsewhere we'll have to work out once we know the final destination. So, without further delay, here is the first thing - a nice *WORKING with no missing pieces* ASR-33 teletype. A picture is at http://cmcnabb.cc.vt.edu/projects/pdp8/asr33.jpg and I'll throw in a whole slew of unpunched papertape and unprinted paper. Bids and questions should be emailed to cmcnabb@gmail.com any bids sent to the list will be ignored. The teletype listing will end on 12 October, 2004. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Oct 5 19:30:31 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Teletype Available In-Reply-To: <145cecdd041005172743adb0dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Christopher McNabb wrote: > So here is the deal. I'll accept bids for one week after an item is > posted. I'd prefer the winner pick the item up, but I can deliver > anywhere within about a 700 mile radius of Blacksburg, VA. Elsewhere > we'll have to work out once we know the final destination. I can't wait for the "lovely spouse" to be up for bidding. I will (for clarity) assume she's in working order, and that none of her parts are missing. Aside perhaps from some brain cells. [rest of intended message suppressed] --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 4 13:22:15 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:14 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > > On Oct 4, 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the massbus > > > control cab beneath? Right, I'm confuzzling myself here. So, the upper part of the RM05 just contains the pack and head assembly, whilst the cabinet beneath contains just PSU, blower unit, and interface cables? There's no read/write logic in that lower cabinet (or the drive above) at all? Then there's a seperate cabinet (which we need to find) which actually has the read/write logic for the drives and in turn hooks to the back of the 570? What's confusing me is that there are four connectors (dual port, in/out) inside the cabinet that sits beneath the drive assembly. Those look to be exactly the same as an output connector on the back of the DECsystem. That's what was making me think that the back of the DECSystem plugs straight into one of those connectors on the lower drive cabinets (I assumed the out on one cab then chains to the input on the next one etc.), and that there was no 'missing cabinet' and that all the read/write logic and massbus interface was in the cabinets below each drive. Seems odd they'd use the same connector for two different applications (machine to control cabinet, then control cabinet to each drive) Yark! Jules ps. every Linux pdf viewer I can find takes an age to flip between pages when looking at docs the size of the ones on bitsavers - to the point that it makes casual reading completely impossible :-( From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 5 20:56:13 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key References: <002401c4a97f$eaacf240$6601a8c0@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <012201c4ab47$a957d570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I may have a spare 2100A front panel key. If not, I can definitely have a copy of one of my keys cut for you. Also, the doublesided keys were for 21MX M series. The 2100's are all tubular keys. Let me know... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key > Anyone happen to have a spare HP 2100A front panel key or know where I can > get one? > > The HP 2100A I acquired is locked in the OFF position and disassembling > the switch to bypass the lock doesn't look like too much fun. I think > someone offered a key when I first asked about this a long time ago but I > didn't take them up on the offer at the time. > > -Glen > > > > From cmcnabb at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 21:03:00 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Teletype... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <145cecdd0410051903531bcd89@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:45:57 -0400, David V. Corbin wrote: > Before bidding, would it be possible to get the following pictures: > > 1) Internals (cover off would be ideal, but listing the little cover should > be sufficient > 2) Closeup of the key tops > 3) Printed sample I've posted them at http://www.4mcnabb.net/images/ASR33 . From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 20:19:05 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:49:49 -0700 (PDT) . Message-ID: <20041006023050.KWNV1792.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message , Tom Jennings write s: >Flexi-floppies (Kansas City format) I think was even talked >about, once. It's a sucky medium, but you can staple it into >magazines! I remember those. Interface Age published a couple of them back in the late '70s. I'm pretty sure I still have one, a 6800 BASIC I think. Brian L. Stuart From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 20:28:56 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2004 18:51:28 +0100 . <200410051751.SAA02663@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20041006024040.LAND1792.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message <200410051751.SAA02663@citadel.metropolis.local>, Stan Barr writes: >Ron Hudson >> I once was wondering if a backup software could be written that writes >> to laser printer. >> >> Backups would be read in with a scanner.. >> >I remember reading about a system like that, wrote data as a pattern of >dots on a laser printer and read using a primitive scanner (it was a >while ago and definitely on-topic). Developed by someone in Germany >I think. A query in various newsgroups a while back turned up no info. You folks are bad for the sanity. You've gotten me thinking about implementing a PDF417[1] reader. I've done some barcode decoding stuff at work, but I've managed to avoid doing any 2-D stuff. Now I may not be able to resist. [1] For those who may not be familiar with it, PDF417 is a standard 2-D barcode. It's something like a bunch of really short (vertically) 1-D barcodes stacked on top of each other. It's not the densest thing in the world, but you could get a lot more on a piece of paper than printing text to OCR later. Most FedEx Ground labels have examples of this code. (UPS labels have a different 2-D code called Maxicode.) Brian L. Stuart From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Oct 5 21:56:00 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key References: <002401c4a97f$eaacf240$6601a8c0@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> <012201c4ab47$a957d570$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001701c4ab50$02d1be10$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> if you run one please run one for us also jay.... we have one but.... it is in that place called somewhere... thankfully the processor is in the 'on' position ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Need an HP 2100A front panel key >I may have a spare 2100A front panel key. If not, I can definitely have a >copy of one of my keys cut for you. Also, the doublesided keys were for >21MX M series. The 2100's are all tubular keys. > > Let me know... > > Jay > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glen Slick" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:33 PM > Subject: Need an HP 2100A front panel key > > >> Anyone happen to have a spare HP 2100A front panel key or know where I >> can get one? >> >> The HP 2100A I acquired is locked in the OFF position and disassembling >> the switch to bypass the lock doesn't look like too much fun. I think >> someone offered a key when I first asked about this a long time ago but I >> didn't take them up on the offer at the time. >> >> -Glen >> >> >> >> > > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 6 02:33:44 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' Message-ID: <41639FD8.13F2C04@rain.org> The Tech Journal had a whole series of programs for a while. When I got my Cauzin SoftStrip reader, I kept an eye open for any magazines that could be used with the reader. They are still waiting to be read :). > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >I remember that! It was some bar code variant, I think the > >code was some BASIC hack small enough to type in. I have no > >recollection what the hardware was though. 1980s. > > Cauzin SoftStrip. Basically a 2-D barcode, read with a handheld scanner. > > > -- > Don Hills From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 6 03:17:13 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <20041006023050.KWNV1792.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> References: <20041006023050.KWNV1792.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4163AA09.4070307@gjcp.net> Did anyone ever use 8-track cartridges for storing data? I've seen them used for echo machines, and a variant is still used for storing jingles and idents for radio stations, although minidisc and sample-based systems have largely taken over. Did any manufacturer produce a data version of the minidisc? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 6 03:26:56 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4163AC50.2030401@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > ps. every Linux pdf viewer I can find takes an age to flip between pages > when looking at docs the size of the ones on bitsavers - to the point > that it makes casual reading completely impossible :-( > I was trying to read them at work, in Acrobat on Windows 2000. It was far too slow to attempt. Printing them out is proving to be a problem, because some of the page orientations are wrong. The landscape-format circuit diagrams only print as half a page, because the bounding box is the wrong way round. Gordon. From shirker at mooli.org.uk Wed Oct 6 04:21:28 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Loading Acorn (BBC) sideways RAM. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > This is a really trivial question, but I wasn't really a BBC micro hacker > in the old days, > > I am planning some upgrdes to a BBC Model B+ (the fact that this > particular B+ lives in the bottom of an Acorn Cambridge shouldn't > matter...). One of them is to combine some of the ROMs (the B+ can take > 27256 32K byte EPROMs), thus freeing up some ROM sockets and put a RAM > chip in one of them. I then have to fiddle the write-enable line [1] (should > be easy) and I have 32K of sideways RAM. > > The hardware doens't worry me (I have schematics...). But how do I load a > ROM image into the sideways RAM? Hi Tony, *SRLOAD imagefile baseaddress pagenumber e.g. *SRLOAD MYROM.ROM 8000 7 is correct for a Master, however the page at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rpsprowson/bbc/software/manuals/webbc.txt says that the correct form for a machine with sideways RAM is: *LOAD imagefile 8000 After either of these you will need to perform a hard break (Ctrl-Break). You can check whether this worked or not with the command *ROMS which lists all ROMS installed in the machine. > Is there some loader program I need (and > where do I get it)? It's built in. > Anything I should know about the image file on disk > (anything about the start/end/entry addreeses in the direxctory, for > example)? I believe the filename is all that's required. This has worked for me on a MAster 128 with a copy of the Small-C Runtime on floppy disk. Regards, Ed. From dmhills at attglobal.net Wed Oct 6 06:33:32 2004 From: dmhills at attglobal.net (Don Hills) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <4163AA09.4070307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Did any manufacturer produce a data version of the minidisc? Sony did. It was a SCSI drive, capacity about 140 MB. I think the only practical use was by Sharp, as storage in a digital camera. -- Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand It's ironic that people who are too smart to engage in politics are governed by people who are not as smart. From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 6 05:44:36 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4163CC94.9060400@mich.com> FWIW, I have one or two of these. They were scsi and worked great for their time. Don Hills wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>Did any manufacturer produce a data version of the minidisc? > > > Sony did. It was a SCSI drive, capacity about 140 MB. > I think the only practical use was by Sharp, > as storage in a digital camera. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 6 08:07:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 16:14 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Mon, 2004-10-04 at 09:45 -0600, Mike Cesari wrote: > On Oct 4, >> 2004, at 8:11 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > Does anyone know how an RM05 drive assembly fastens to the >> massbus > > control cab beneath? Jules> Right, I'm confuzzling myself here. Jules> So, the upper part of the RM05 just contains the pack and head Jules> assembly, whilst the cabinet beneath contains just PSU, blower Jules> unit, and interface cables? There's no read/write logic in Jules> that lower cabinet (or the drive above) at all? Jules> Then there's a seperate cabinet (which we need to find) which Jules> actually has the read/write logic for the drives and in turn Jules> hooks to the back of the 570? Jules> What's confusing me is that there are four connectors (dual Jules> port, in/out) inside the cabinet that sits beneath the drive Jules> assembly. Those look to be exactly the same as an output Jules> connector on the back of the DECsystem. That's what was making Jules> me think that the back of the DECSystem plugs straight into Jules> one of those connectors on the lower drive cabinets (I assumed Jules> the out on one cab then chains to the input on the next one Jules> etc.), and that there was no 'missing cabinet' and that all Jules> the read/write logic and massbus interface was in the cabinets Jules> below each drive. Seems odd they'd use the same connector for Jules> two different applications (machine to control cabinet, then Jules> control cabinet to each drive) Sounds like Massbus connectors... But the docs on bitsavers.org (pdf/dec/disc/RM05) clearly show a separate "adapter" cabinet. My memory isn't good enough to comment further.; Jules> ps. every Linux pdf viewer I can find takes an age to flip Jules> between pages when looking at docs the size of the ones on Jules> bitsavers - to the point that it makes casual reading Jules> completely impossible :-( I noticed that too. Get Adobe's Acrobat Reader for Linux. That one does the job right. Ghostview is pretty decent, too, but acroread is clearly the best. One issue I fought with for a while: acroread was confused about wanting a UTF font and not finding it. (Why not? I have lots of fonts installed...) Anyway, defining "LANG=C" (for acroread, at least, not necessarily globally) fixes that. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 6 08:27:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <4163AC50.2030401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <16739.62151.280350.409407@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce writes: Gordon> I was trying to read them at work, in Acrobat on Windows Gordon> 2000. It was far too slow to attempt. Printing them out is Gordon> proving to be a problem, because some of the page Gordon> orientations are wrong. The landscape-format circuit Gordon> diagrams only print as half a page, because the bounding box Gordon> is the wrong way round. Turn on the "adjust paper orientation to match page" flag in the print options. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 6 08:46:46 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DEC RM05 mountings In-Reply-To: <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1097070406.18497.85.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 09:07 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > Sounds like Massbus connectors... > > But the docs on bitsavers.org (pdf/dec/disc/RM05) clearly show a > separate "adapter" cabinet. My memory isn't good enough to comment > further.; aha, well it was my fault (well, I'd been fed wrong information as I was told they were RM05's, plus I'm a DEC novice :-) They're actually RM03 units, not RM05 - the RM03's don't have the seperate cab and have the relevant guts inside the cabinets beneath the drives. Thanks to Mike C. for realising that :-) So we're not missing a cab after all. That means there's only a little bit of trim and two door hinges to find and we've got a complete system again... Still don't know how the darn drive units mount though. I'll be able to have a proper flick through some of the pdf files when Adobe's viewer finishes downloading though. > Jules> ps. every Linux pdf viewer I can find takes an age to flip > Jules> between pages when looking at docs the size of the ones on > Jules> bitsavers - to the point that it makes casual reading > Jules> completely impossible :-( > > I noticed that too. Get Adobe's Acrobat Reader for Linux. Will do. 8MB download for a PDF viewer though - ouch! Odd that they have one version for Linux, yet list different downloads for every version of Windows; I'm surprised that there isn't a 'one version fits all' version for Windows as there apparently is for Linux. cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 6 09:49:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Acrobat grrr (was: Re: DEC RM05 mountings) In-Reply-To: <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1097074189.18515.110.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 09:07 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > Get Adobe's Acrobat Reader for Linux. Word of warning - the current version (5.0.9) installer is somewhat broken. When run, it chmods /tmp to 755, changes ownership to an id in the ten thousand range, and changes group to users. Consequently other things on the machine get upset rather quickly when they can't write to /tmp. So that's nice of it. I only noticed after I'd tried to get the reader to work post-install; at first I thought it was the reader doing it, but turns out it's their installation script. How that one slipped through their testing I'm not sure! > That one does the job right. Yes, it runs very quick. Shame it demolishes the rest of the system at the install stage though :-) cheers, Jules From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Oct 6 09:54:44 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Bah! I've got too many HP-110 Plus portable computers! References: <20040930003318.37438.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4abb4$6a9acf50$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> looking for hp 110 and 150 related items, prefer new looking in the boxes to go in the display here at the museum Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven" To: "cc" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: Bah! I've got too many HP-110 Plus portable computers! > Yes, > I have too many HP-110 Plus portable computers - this > is the one with the large screen - 80 X 25 text. > > Works great, no power adapter, but the soft carrying > case is included. > > I'd love to trade one for an > Otrona Attache, > Atari Stacy, > ZX-Spectrum, > cold hard cash, > ???? > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Oct 6 10:28:34 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Acrobat grrr (was: Re: DEC RM05 mountings) In-Reply-To: <1097074189.18515.110.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1096899071.15041.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <729215B8-161C-11D9-990C-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <1096906496.15058.56.camel@weka.localdomain> <1096914135.15041.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <16739.60957.984606.162759@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1097074189.18515.110.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <8d53aff94c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1097074189.18515.110.camel@weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Word of warning - the current version (5.0.9) installer is somewhat > broken. When run, it chmods /tmp to 755, changes ownership to an id in > the ten thousand range, and changes group to users. Consequently other > things on the machine get upset rather quickly when they can't write > to /tmp. > > So that's nice of it. Methinks someone needs to perform the Clue Induction Ritual on Adobe's Linux AcroRead developer team... Make sure to do it properly - with the Book of Clue and a Clue-by-four. As far as brain damaged code goes, I've just spent a good chunk of the afternoon trying to figure out why my Panasonic Toughbook was ignoring the Hibernation partition. Seems the BIOS only checks the partition pointed to by the second entry in the partition table. If it ain't a hibernation partition, the BIOS assumes there isn't one. Took a good hour (and about half a dozen repartition/reformat cycles) to figure that one out. I also learned that DOS FDISK is totally brain-damaged. I ended up digging out a copy of Ranish Partition Manager and repartitioning the drive manually. Bleagh. > I only noticed after I'd tried to get the reader to work post-install; > at first I thought it was the reader doing it, but turns out it's their > installation script. How that one slipped through their testing I'm not > sure! "Hang on a minute - the installer's clobbering the /tmp directory!" "Aww, leave it. We're already late for the company picnic, just release it as it is" :P Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If you really want to know, you won't ask me. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 6 11:06:29 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) Message-ID: <200410061606.JAA16132@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Stan I don't know much about PET's but I guess "working" means it beeps 4 times. That is working, isn't it? Dwight >From: "Stan Sieler" > >Hi, >Does anyone know what 4 quick beeps at >power on means for a Commodore PET 4032? > >When I hit the power switch, the 4 beeps >come immediately, and then nothing ... >no sound, and nothing at all on the CRT. > >This is a new-to-me 4032, allegedly working. > >thanks, >Stan > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 6 11:18:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) In-Reply-To: <200410061606.JAA16132@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410061606.JAA16132@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1097079519.18497.113.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 09:06 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Stan > I don't know much about PET's but I guess "working" > means it beeps 4 times. That is working, isn't it? > Dwight Sure - it's old, isn't it. All old computers can do is beep. From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Oct 6 11:52:28 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) Message-ID: <20041006165227.CHOE11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > I don't know much about PET's but I guess "working" >means it beeps 4 times. That is working, isn't it? I'm not the most knowlegable about PETs in this group, but I have been working on a bunch of them lately - I've recently debugged startup problems with a 4032 and several 8032s (essentually the same board), so I will try and offer somewhat more helpful information .... :-) The 4032 and 8032 normally give a "beep series", which might be interpreted as "four beeps" - is it sort of one long continuous beep that warbles four times, or is it four distinct beeps? If the former, then it's normal, if the latter, then I don't recognize it. I dug through the starup code a fair bit in debugging my SuperPet (8032 from 6502 point of view) and I don't recall anything along the way before video-init and startup message that would generate beeps other than the "Warble". First, make sure the monitor is working (There's a brightness control on the back which may have been turned down) - Check for power to the monitor, and if you have a scope, look for drive signals. If you think the monitor is working, then you can get into the internal monitor by grounding the "diag" pin on the User port - In my experience, this comes up a LOT easier than BASIC, so it may come up even if Basic won't. Once you get that far, then the rest should be easy. In working on a 4032 and three 8032s recently, here's what I found: - Bad 4116 DRAM's - I ended up replacing 5 DRAM's in total (IMHO This is a very likely reason for what you are observing - one of mine hung in the ram-size function due to a bad DRAM) - Bad 2114 Video SRAM's - I had to replace two of these (and a few more in Commodore disk drive units) - these will cause "bad video" but you should still get SOME video. - Bad power regulator the 12v regulator on one of my 8032s. Didn't run across any this time, but I have seen bad ROMs in PETs in the past. Regards, Dave-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Wed Oct 6 14:59:20 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: reading 3480 tapes In-Reply-To: <200410052144.i95LiTnE086095@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002a01c4abde$f8e36cc0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Hi gang, >>3490 is 36 track<< Hate to pick nits, but 3490 is actually 18 track with compression--physically the same recording method as 3480, but with an IDRC compression chip. The 3490E is 36-track. regards, Chris www.mullermedia.com From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 6 15:31:29 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Fwd: Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041006084041.02e06060@mail.netsync.net> I forwarded Joe's request for info on the TWX Diag Control Panel from the ClassicCmp (cctech) list to the Greenkeys email list. Both Joe and I got a private reply but I feel some others on both lists will be interested in Russ' reply. To wit: >From: Russmill47@aol.com >Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:37:40 EDT >Subject: Western Union TWX V Diagnostic Control Panel >To: cfandt@netsync.net >Cc: rigdonj@cfl.rr.com > > >When Western Union acquired the TWX network from AT&T, there was a need to >build a new network that would allow Western Union to integrate the >existing Telex network with the TWX network. > >Western Union designed and built the Digital Exchange Network (DES) for >this purpose. DES was not the huge success that everyone hoped as there >were many software problems that caused reliability and availability problems. > >The TWX V Concentrator was located at the edge of the WU Central Office >network, usually within a couple of thousand cable feet from the serving >Local Exchange (Bell) Central Office. >Typically, these concentrators would handle up to fifty (50) TWX >customers, handling all the edge interaction with the customer TWX machine >on one side of the box with the rest of the box providing TDM services >that consolidated the 50 customer signals into a single digital data >stream. In small locations, which could be rental space in a telephone >answering service location, there would be a single box. Medium size >locations would have multiple boxes that would feed their digital signals >to an intermediate box that would further Mux these separate digital data >streams to a high speed (9600 bps) Paradyne Modem. > >The Diagnostic Control Panel was mounted at the top of the concentrator >and was used to monitor the internal health of the box as well as provide >information as to the status of the individual subscriber links and the >high speed digital data link. The technology is state-of-the art early >1970s so you can look to processor speeds of 1-2MBps. A lot of this >technology was designed and manufactured in Mahwah, NJ. This was the R&D >headquarters for WU and just up the road from WU galactic headquarters in >Upper Saddle River, NJ. > >Russ Miller >russmill47@aol.com >WA3FRP So it appears the DES was one of the early implementations of commercial digital communication. Thanks for the enlightenment Russ! Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Oct 6 16:09:26 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: reading 3480 tapes References: <002a01c4abde$f8e36cc0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001f01c4abe8$c3b68e60$2201a8c0@finans> > >>3490 is 36 track<< > > Hate to pick nits, but 3490 is actually 18 track with > compression--physically the same recording method as 3480, but with an IDRC > compression chip. > > The 3490E is 36-track. Hm, I wonder where I have seen the phrase "3480 : 18 track with compression" Maybe my memory is leaking ? Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Oct 5 18:13:54 2004 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: DecTape & LincTape. (David V. Corbin) In-Reply-To: <200410052144.i95LiTnG086095@huey.classiccmp.org> from "cctalk-request@classiccmp.org" at Oct 05, 2004 04:44:45 PM Message-ID: <200410052313.i95NDsa23728@drs-c4i.com> For details on format see http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=a8ncg5%24brf%241%40slb6.atl.mindspring.net http://groups.google.com/groups?q=linctape+dectape&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=mddislzx32x.fsf%40panix5.panix.com&rnum=3 Select complete thread to see the discussions or search for DECtape LINCtape for more discussions. I was able to read on a PDP-8 TD8E by putting an inverter in the timing track signal. Still was a little marginal. Haven't gotten back to trying to get it better. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. Have any PDP-8 stuff you're willing to part with? From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Wed Oct 6 01:12:29 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: In search of... DECtape drives Message-ID: <200410060612.CAA05119@ss10.danlan.com> Brad Parker wrote: |Anyone on the boston or mass/nh/ct area have a working 9-track drive |which can read 800bpi tapes? I have two drives which can in theory read 800bpi. One is a relatively modern quad density unit and the other is an old rack-mount dual. The latter is not currently connected to a computer, but it could be if the former fails to perform. I'm in Gloucester. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Oct 6 18:06:38 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: BIG! TK70 Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006190341.02b95258@192.168.0.1> "Digital Electronics Model TK70 10/20 gb Internal DLT Tape Drive w/ mounting rails and 5 Tapes. " I'd like to see the size of them tapes! And they tested it too!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39978&item=5129239275&rd=1 (TK70 holds maybe 290MB per cartridge) Nice link to DEC tape history... http://learning.quantum.com/demo/history.htm Ed K. From dan at ekoan.com Wed Oct 6 18:28:26 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Confirm this PDP-8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> This weekend I picked up some classic computing gear including a PDP-8. I believe it's an 8/A, but since my PDP experience is limited to the PDP-11 series, I'm not sure. Can anyone take a look at www.decodesystems.com/pdp8.html and let me know if my assumption is correct? I haven't had time to even clean it off, but when I do have a chance I'd welcome guidance on checking things out step-by-step to get it back into operating condition. Thanks! Cheers, Dan From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Oct 6 18:58:42 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Confirm this PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: <20041006235842.32791.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> That would appear to be an 8/A CPU chassis. I don't know if the particular package with cabinet and drives had some other designation as a system. --- Dan Veeneman wrote: > This weekend I picked up some classic computing > gear including a PDP-8. I believe it's an 8/A, but > since > my PDP experience is limited to the PDP-11 series, > I'm not sure. > > Can anyone take a look at > www.decodesystems.com/pdp8.html > and let me know if my assumption is correct? > > I haven't had time to even clean it off, but when I > do > have a chance I'd welcome guidance on checking > things out step-by-step to get it back into > operating condition. > > Thanks! > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Oct 6 19:11:20 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Confirm this PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006200443.02df63f8@192.168.0.1> At 07:28 PM 10/6/2004, you wrote: >This weekend I picked up some classic computing >gear including a PDP-8. I believe it's an 8/A, but since >my PDP experience is limited to the PDP-11 series, >I'm not sure. Actually, it's a DEC look-alike made in Armonk BFE. It's commonly called a FOOLS 8 because many are fooled by it's clever imitation of a PDP 8A. Not worth anything, might as well throw it away. I know the disappointment you must feel, and the pain at looking at something so deceptive, so I'll gladly pay to have some folks come by and take it off your hands. :-) Ed K. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 6 19:14:44 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: BIG! TK70 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006190341.02b95258@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006190341.02b95258@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: >"Digital Electronics Model TK70 10/20 gb Internal DLT Tape Drive w/ >mounting rails and 5 Tapes. " > >I'd like to see the size of them tapes! >And they tested it too!! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39978&item=5129239275&rd=1 > >(TK70 holds maybe 290MB per cartridge) Makes you wonder what sort of tapes they're including with the drive. Are they TK70's, or are they DLT's that can't be used in the drive? >Nice link to DEC tape history... > >http://learning.quantum.com/demo/history.htm It's also interesting to note that most of the Quantum tape drives that they show aren't standalone drives, but rather drives that are intended to go in a Jukebox. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Oct 6 20:38:39 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> Did you happen to know... A crappy PC laptop will stop the slug from a .45 automatic cold? Its kinda impressive how well layers of ultra-thin sheet metal, G10 and plastic hold up. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 2:27 PM Subject: now there's a good head crash > On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters > > physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just > > aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... > > DAMN RIGHT! Crappy PC/Mac hardware with stupid power cubes! At > least CRTs can give you a shock, these wimpy laptop things > barely hurt when used as bludgeons. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 6 20:54:18 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Confirm this PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: <20041007015418.GD1714@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Oct 06, 2004 at 07:28:26PM -0400, Dan Veeneman wrote: > This weekend I picked up some classic computing > gear including a PDP-8. I believe it's an 8/A, but since > my PDP experience is limited to the PDP-11 series, > I'm not sure. Yep... it's an -8/a... > Can anyone take a look at > www.decodesystems.com/pdp8.html > and let me know if my assumption is correct? What you have there all looks correct. You might want to post pictures of the unmarked hex-height cards (see below for an educated guess). > I haven't had time to even clean it off, but when I do > have a chance I'd welcome guidance on checking > things out step-by-step to get it back into > operating condition. Well... first off, you'll need a front panel. The circuit is trivial, so if yours was lost in storage, you could make one out of a couple of toggle switches, some LEDs, and maybe a chip or two (I can't remember what's on it at the moment). Second, I don't see an RX8E in there (M8357). The 40-pin cable sticking out of the front probably went to it (presuming the other end is in the disk drive). I do see MOS RAM (M8417), but I can't tell from the handle what size. The three varieties are MS8CAA (16kW), MS8CAB (32kW), and MS8DJ (128kW). Since it doesn't appear that you have a KT8A (M8416), you probably have an MS8CAA or MSC8AB. The way to tell for sure is to pull the board. If half of the RAM spots are filled with 4K DRAMs, it has 16kW. If all of them are filled with 4K DRAMs, it has 32kW. If all of them are filled with 16K DRAMs, it's 128kW. I have never tried extracting the 4K chips and replacing them with 16K chips, so I can't say for sure if that's the only difference, but it is a telling difference (since I _have_ a KT8A, I've always wondered if I can take one of my 16K boards, extract the 4K DRAMs and upgrade it with 4116s). Of the other 3 boards, the standard compliment in a small-ish -8/a system would be a KK8A CPU (M8315), a DKC8AA console I/O board (M8316), and KM8AA bootstrap/memory extender (M8317). There are several varieties of KM8AA, but in the field, I have only run into the fully-loaded ones (all features installed/enabled). There are, IIRC, three sets of boot PROMs for the KM8AA, but that would only matter if you were trying to change your system device from the RX02s (I have one set at home that will boot an RL01 on an RL8A, and two sets that will not, for example). There's not much room in them, so if you needed to boot, say, a TU56 vs an RK05 vs an RL01, you'd probably need both of the later sets. I've only ever needed to boot floppy or RL01, so in practice that's never been a problem for me. Doug Jones' module list is a good place to start if you know the handle numbers and need to translate... http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/modules.html The 1976 or 1977/78 'small computer handbook' will have lots of details about jumper settings, periperal features, etc. IIRC, one or both are on bitsavers (you can do with just the 1977/78 edition). Getting a hard drive on that machine might prove to be a bit of a problem. Essentially, your 'common' choices would be RK05/RK8E or RL01/RL8A. I _think_ it's easier to find the RK8E than the RL8A, but I'm pretty sure it's easier to find RL01s than RK05s at this point. It's certainly easier to find RL01K (cartridges) than 16 sector RK05 packs, but that's because _all_ DEC machines that can talk to the RL01 (PDP-8, PDP-11, VAX) use the same packs, whereas the RK05 used differently hard-sectored packs for the PDP-11 and the PDP-8. There were 3rd party disk controllers for the OMNIBUS, but they are substantially less common than either the RK8E or RL01. I know of a (6809-based) SCSI controller, but I have never seen one in person. It knew how to talk to both 5.25" floppies and MFM hard disks through an old OMTI SCSI bridge card. It works with ZIP drives, etc., as well, from what I was told ten years ago. The good news is that RX01/RX02 floppies are durable and can still be found here and there. I have several boxes at home, but won't be in a position to do any duplicating for several months, at least. It is possible for other varieties of hardware to duplicate RX01-density floppies, but, unless someone has tricked out a Catweasel, only and RX02 can write to an RX02 (mixed density tricks specific to that drive). There was some discussion here some time back about what it would take to hook the drive unit itself up to a modern machine, but someone mentioned that the parallel port on a PC-class box wasn't fast enough to feed the drive what it needed when it needed it, and the thread died. If you _could_ hook the drive up to a machine, it would be a lot easier to make and archive disk images. You have plenty of memory to run OS/8 (8K required, but more is better), and if you happen to have 32K, you could run Adventure, one of the larger programs produced for the PDP-8. The assemblers, and FORTRAN compilers, BASIC interpreter, and FOCAL interpreter are all fine with less than 32K. One thing nice about your rig is that with extra serial ports, once you have an OS and Kermit, it will be easy to stick new programs on the machine. You might even be able to run a dual-head WPS-8 machine (with a second floppy drive and controller). There are _lots_ of PDP-8 resources on the 'net. More than one excellent web page is maintained by members of this list. Cheers, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 07-Oct-2004 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.7 F (-58.2 C) Windchill -114.3 F (-81.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 028 Barometer 674.9 mb (10820. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 6 22:13:45 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Confirm this PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <20041006235842.32791.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20041006191741.058050c0@mail.marcal.com> <20041006235842.32791.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041007031345.GG6618@bos7.spole.gov> > --- Dan Veeneman wrote: > > Can anyone take a look at > > www.decodesystems.com/pdp8.html > > and let me know if my assumption is correct? Dan, I was looking at your pictures again and I can't tell if there's a sixth quad-height board in there or not (with no handles). If so, that may be your RX8E. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 07-Oct-2004 03:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74 F (-58.9 C) Windchill -112 F (-80 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 015 Barometer 675.3 mb (10804. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 02:17:22 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6AC9BF70-16DD-11D9-B097-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041007021257.0ae32cb8@pc> At 04:25 PM 10/5/2004, ben franchuk wrote: >BYTE magizine years ago had a printed media format at one time. >you may want to check on what they did. BYTE also had something >once on a very low cost write only media, I wonder what happend to >them. This list discussed Cauzin and other interesting 2D barcode technologies back in November and December 1998, if you want to look in the archives. http://www.paperdisk.com/ was also mentioned. I saw something in the NY Times today about software in cellular phones that recognizes a new circular barcode that encodes a URL (and given the example, it looked like it used a "tiny URL" scheme to map a low-density number to a longer URL kept in a server's database.) http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/07/technology/circuits/07kiosk-side.html - John From cmcnabb at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 06:52:46 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:53 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> Message-ID: <145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 21:38:39 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > Did you happen to know... > > A crappy PC laptop will stop the slug from a .45 automatic cold? > > Its kinda impressive how well layers of ultra-thin sheet metal, G10 and > plastic > hold up. > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 7 08:42:21 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain><001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> <145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. I believe my Mosin-Nagant uses 7.62x54. I'll have to try that out (digging for a PC hard drive). My chinese SKS uses the lesser 7.62x39 - but with a 40 shot bananna clip, you can produce a constant hammering effect *GRIN* Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Oct 7 08:51:13 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain><001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer><145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> > > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. > Here is something I dont understand. .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. How can the .45 come out worst? Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 7 09:06:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: >>> Here is something I dont understand. >>> .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. >>> How can the .45 come out worst? >>> Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) >>> The .45 runs Windows The 7.62 runs Linux [or maybe it has something to do with velocity....] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 7 09:07:59 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash (revised) Message-ID: >>> Here is something I dont understand. >>> .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. >>> How can the .45 come out worst? >>> Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) >>> The .45 runs Windows The 7.62 runs Linux [or maybe it has something to do with velocity....] David [ Major eater of Danish Pastries in the US] From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Oct 7 09:09:41 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> <145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041007070900.0350feb0@mail.zipcon.net> digs out Blackpowder Zouave.... if she'll crack a chevy engine block, she should go through a harddisk :) At 06:51 AM 10/7/2004, you wrote: > > > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > > > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. > > >Here is something I dont understand. >.45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. >How can the .45 come out worst? >Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From cmcnabb at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 09:05:58 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> <200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu> <1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> <145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <145cecdd0410070705513b17aa@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:51:13 +0200, Nico de Jong wrote: > Here is something I dont understand. > .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. > How can the .45 come out worst? > Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) The .45 ACP is a relatively slow moving, heavy slug with a rounded tip. The 7.62x54R is a high velocity rifle round that has a pointed tip. The .45 will dent the casing of the HD (at least, mine did), while the 7.62x54R will penetrate. From wacarder at usit.net Thu Oct 7 09:14:26 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Early PDP-11 memory question Message-ID: <003301c4ac77$f49026b0$5a120f14@mcothran1> I have a question for the PDP-11 Unibus experts here. I recently obtained a PDP 11/35 that had been dismantled some years ago. As part of this, there were some older style core memory board sets. These were the 8k H214 and H215 core boards and their corresponding G110 and G231 boards. The backplane in the CPU box next to the CPU backplane is an MF11-LP. There are three other MM11-UP backplanes that supposedly came out of a big BA11 expansion box. I also have the original large field print sets for the MM11-L and MM11-S memory, which both seem to go along with the H214/H215/G110/G231 board sets. Question: Does anyone know if the older 8k H214/H215/G110/G231 memory board sets will work in the backplanes that I have? The previous owner says that this memory went with the backplanes that I have. I have acquired some 16k H217c, G214, and G235 memory board sets, along with the M8293 and M7259 boards, so I can get more core in the same space, but I would like to use the 8k core too, if it can be used with the backplanes I have. Thanks, Ashley From jplist at kiwigeek.com Thu Oct 7 09:14:13 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. > I believe my Mosin-Nagant uses 7.62x54. I'll have to try that out (digging > for a PC hard drive). My chinese SKS uses the lesser 7.62x39 - but with a 40 > shot bananna clip, you can produce a constant hammering effect *GRIN* I regularly use hard disk platters for target practice. This has become a bit of a tradition with my group of 'Redneck Geeks'. Of course, I only have a Remington .22 SportsMaster (I'm only a resident after all, I've decided it's not worth attracting attention to myself just to own weapons). A single 3.5" platter will usually stop a .22 LR round, but not always, and not after you've hit it a few times and stressed the metal. We hang the holed platters into mobiles. Will be useful one day when I actually have a kid. (Assuming my wife doesn't get all funny about those sharp edges, she does that now and then) JP From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 7 09:31:48 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash References: Message-ID: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > We hang the holed platters into mobiles. My favorite thing to shoot at is bowling ball pins. Most things I shoot at with my SKS don't hold up well after a few clips are emptied into it; they tend to disintegrate and fall apart. But I bought a case of used bowling ball pins..... Because of the semiflexible (and thick) plastic coating around the wooden pin, they tend to stay intact even after many clips have been emptied into them. MOST fun is to install an eyebolt into the top of the pin and hang it on a wire stretched horizontally between two trees. Then you truely have the carnival midway effect of hitting the pin and it spins around on the wire. Loads of fun :) Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:12:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: VCF back online Message-ID: As is traditional, the vagaries of the universe conspired to take down my web server right after I released the latest issue of the VCF Gazette. It's funny how you'll be up all night working on something major, and you think, "I should back this up." But then you're so tired you decide to do it in the morning. Then the next day your server goes down and you have no idea why. Ugh. Anyway, in this case it turned out to be a case of the server wanting to have fsck run manually and so it never rebooted after some power glitch. Fortunately, nothing was too out of whack: a few lost inodes and some confused chains and other nonsense. I've now moved my server back to within my own confines and have backed it up, plus I'm finishing up on a new (faster!) web server, which will eventually have a lot of storage and I hope to mirror some of the fine repositories on the web. Anyway, if you tried to contact me since Tuesday and I have not responded, this is why. I will be catching up and replying by later today. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:13:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <41631162.9080704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > BYTE magizine years ago had a printed media format at one time. > you may want to check on what they did. BYTE also had something > once on a very low cost write only media, I wonder what happend to > them. That was the Cauzin SoftStrip system. I always wanted one back in the day but my limited teenage budget precluded its purchase. I eventually got one to add to my collection, though I've never had the time to try it out. It seemed like a good idea. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:17:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > Too bad flexidisks (audio) died such an early death. Clearly > it wasn't a medium that was going to last that long, but the These were issued as "Floppy ROM" in several issues of Interface Age. Very neat. There were discussions on the list years ago about programs being sent out over the radio as in the UK so you would plug your radio output into your computer's cassette input to receive the program: mass software distribution! There was also a discussion about bouncing signals off the moon to create a delay-line memory of sort. What if we were to preserve software by encoding it as audio and bouncing it off the moon? I figure we could probably save a few old programs that way :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:24:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Or be on the lookout for a Tek 1230 that has just died...Put the word out to > people that have one...Often when something like this dies it just goes in > the garbage. Make sure that everyone you know that knows someone that has > one knows that you will give them CASH for the entire kit and kaboodle even > though the analyzer itself has died [then you can scavange the carcass for > parts] > > I have used this approach many times [on computer related and other stuff] > and it WORKS! This sounds like the Tom Vu method for acquiring classic gear: "You so stupid! Look at you with your puny little worthless computer collection, while I sit here atop this pile of Altairs. Look, literally it's a pile of Altairs! I get so many of these that I finally just started throwing them into this pile, and now I can sit atop it like the King of the Altairs and gloat while you sit there with your pitiful Commodore 64 missing the '1' key! Listen to my plan and I'll make you a classic computer GOD like me!!!" :) (For the unenlightened: http://infomercial.tvheaven.com/tomvu.htm) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 7 13:44:53 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I fail to see the connection between the following... >>> >>> > Or be on the lookout for a Tek 1230 that has just >>> > died...Put the word >>> > out to people that have one...Often when something like >>> > this dies it >>> > just goes in the garbage. Make sure that everyone you >>> > know that knows >>> > someone that has one knows that you will give them CASH >>> > for the entire >>> > kit and kaboodle even though the analyzer itself has died >>> > [then you >>> > can scavange the carcass for parts] >>> > >>> > I have used this approach many times [on computer related >>> > and other >>> > stuff] and it WORKS! >>> Sellam Ismail reponds.... >>> This sounds like the Tom Vu method for acquiring classic gear: >>> >>> "You so stupid! Look at you with your puny little >>> worthless computer collection, while I sit here atop this >>> pile of Altairs. Look, literally it's a pile of Altairs! >>> I get so many of these that I finally just started throwing >>> them into this pile, and now I can sit atop it like the >>> King of the Altairs and gloat while you sit there with your >>> pitiful Commodore 64 missing the '1' key! Listen to my >>> plan and I'll make you a classic computer GOD like me!!!" >>> From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:42:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <4163AA09.4070307@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Did anyone ever use 8-track cartridges for storing data? I've seen them > used for echo machines, and a variant is still used for storing jingles > and idents for radio stations, although minidisc and sample-based > systems have largely taken over. Dang, I'm drawing a blank right now but I had a conversation not too long ago with someone who used 8-track to store data. I forget who and what the circumstances were (i.e. was it for hobbyist or commercial purposes?) But yes, it was done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:45:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041007021257.0ae32cb8@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > I saw something in the NY Times today about software in cellular phones > that recognizes a new circular barcode that encodes a URL > (and given the example, it looked like it used a "tiny URL" > scheme to map a low-density number to a longer URL kept > in a server's database.) Wow, history repeats itself so soon. It's good that the CueCat engineers managed to find work after the dot.bomb. Because, you know, that was such a good idea that it screams for reincarnation! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 05:49:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Tek 1230 pods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > I fail to see the connection between the following... hmm, upon re-reading I see that you were referring to the EQUIPMENT dying, not the owner of said equipment. Tony Vu's method was to find people in distress so you could get their property for next to nothing. Sorry :)~ > >>> > Or be on the lookout for a Tek 1230 that has just > >>> > died...Put the word > >>> > out to people that have one...Often when something like > >>> > this dies it > >>> > just goes in the garbage. Make sure that everyone you > >>> > know that knows > >>> > someone that has one knows that you will give them CASH > >>> > for the entire > >>> > kit and kaboodle even though the analyzer itself has died > >>> > [then you > >>> > can scavange the carcass for parts] > >>> > > >>> > I have used this approach many times [on computer related > >>> > and other > >>> > stuff] and it WORKS! > >>> > > > Sellam Ismail reponds.... > > >>> This sounds like the Tom Vu method for acquiring classic gear: > >>> > >>> "You so stupid! Look at you with your puny little > >>> worthless computer collection, while I sit here atop this > >>> pile of Altairs. Look, literally it's a pile of Altairs! > >>> I get so many of these that I finally just started throwing > >>> them into this pile, and now I can sit atop it like the > >>> King of the Altairs and gloat while you sit there with your > >>> pitiful Commodore 64 missing the '1' key! Listen to my > >>> plan and I'll make you a classic computer GOD like me!!!" > >>> > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 7 13:48:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain><001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer><145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Nico de Jong wrote: > Here is something I dont understand. > .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. > How can the .45 come out worst? > Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) Amount of powder driving the thing, and volumetric stuff. .45acp is subsonic, most of the NATO junk >> mach1. Energy... From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 7 13:56:09 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Dang, I'm drawing a blank right now but I had a conversation not too long > ago with someone who used 8-track to store data. I forget who and what > the circumstances were (i.e. was it for hobbyist or commercial purposes?) Wang. I have two carts (clear plastic, jumble-wound endless loops). I think there was a thread about it only a few months ago. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 7 14:00:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' Message-ID: <200410071900.MAA17109@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" ---snip--- >There was also a discussion about bouncing signals off the moon to create >a delay-line memory of sort. > >What if we were to preserve software by encoding it as audio and bouncing >it off the moon? I figure we could probably save a few old programs that >way :) > Hi You'd need a few different frequencies. The round trip to the moon and back is only 2.6 seconds. It would be much more reliable if there was a repeater on the moon otherwise the signal would be weak. Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 7 14:14:52 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <200410071900.MAA17109@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410071900.MAA17109@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > ---snip--- >> There was also a discussion about bouncing signals off the moon to create >> a delay-line memory of sort. >> >> What if we were to preserve software by encoding it as audio and bouncing >> it off the moon? I figure we could probably save a few old programs that >> way :) >> > > Hi > You'd need a few different frequencies. The round trip to > the moon and back is only 2.6 seconds. It would be much more > reliable if there was a repeater on the moon otherwise the > signal would be weak. > Dwight You'd need a way to overcome the severe phase-rotation and libration fading artifacts that make Earth-Moon-Earth reflection-mode communications a peculiar (and rather frustrating) hobby for us Hams. Folks use large, high-gain (10 meter > up) dishes, and legal-limit output powers (1500Watts at 450 MHtz) and specialized communication algorithms, like phase-coherent Morse Code, in order to actually send 'intelligence' - even using a keyed unmodulated carier, the throughput is byte-per-minutes. Have to use a whole lotta wait-states for the EME buffer... Cheers John From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 7 14:20:29 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <200410071900.MAA17109@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410071900.MAA17109@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > You'd need a few different frequencies. The round trip to > the moon and back is only 2.6 seconds. It would be much more > reliable if there was a repeater on the moon otherwise the > signal would be weak. Fill the intervening space with a gas or liquid and do it accoustically, you'd get a lot more bits in there. I will hand-wave the accoustic energy loss problems as obvious. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 7 14:37:44 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> > You'd need a few different frequencies. The round trip >>> > to the moon >>> > and back is only 2.6 seconds. It would be much more >>> > reliable if there >>> > was a repeater on the moon otherwise the signal would be weak. >>> >>> Fill the intervening space with a gas or liquid and do it >>> accoustically, you'd get a lot more bits in there. I will >>> hand-wave the accoustic energy loss problems as obvious. Are you offering do supply the materials and containment??? From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 7 14:32:39 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> Fill the intervening space with a gas or liquid and do it > >>> accoustically, you'd get a lot more bits in there. I will > >>> hand-wave the accoustic energy loss problems as obvious. > > Are you offering do supply the materials and containment??? Oh no, I of course leave that to the engineers. BTW, it's due Wednesday. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 7 14:33:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' Message-ID: <200410071933.MAA17145@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> You'd need a few different frequencies. The round trip to >> the moon and back is only 2.6 seconds. It would be much more >> reliable if there was a repeater on the moon otherwise the >> signal would be weak. > >Fill the intervening space with a gas or liquid and do it >accoustically, you'd get a lot more bits in there. I will >hand-wave the accoustic energy loss problems as obvious. > Hi Use a mercury delay line hung from a sky hook. Put multiple repeaters along the line. One can add some switch boxes along the line so that one can short path the delay for more rapid response for specific packets. You'd basically exchange an originally out going packet of an in going packet. If a good algorithm wasn't used, some packet might not ever make the full loop. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 7 14:46:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> > >>> Fill the intervening space with a gas or liquid and do it >>> > >>> accoustically, you'd get a lot more bits in there. I will >>> > >>> hand-wave the accoustic energy loss problems as obvious. >>> > >>> > Are you offering do supply the materials and containment??? >>> >>> Oh no, I of course leave that to the engineers. BTW, it's >>> due Wednesday. The hardware guys will never make it...I guess the Software team will have to come to the rescue and Simulate it...AGAIN!! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 7 14:49:56 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' References: Message-ID: <41659DE4.9000300@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > What if we were to preserve software by encoding it as audio and bouncing > it off the moon? I figure we could probably save a few old programs that > way :) That only works if the computer is HAL 9000. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:08:10 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20041007130714.R55567@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > My favorite thing to shoot at is bowling ball pins. Most things I shoot at > carnival midway effect of hitting the pin and it spins around on the wire. > Loads of fun :) Why not set up a group of ten at a considerable distance,... hire a pinsetter,.... From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:18:19 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There were discussions on the list years ago about programs being sent out > over the radio as in the UK so you would plug your radio output into your > computer's cassette input to receive the program: mass software > distribution! > This was also done on Sunday afternoons in the mid 80's by a local rock station, KZOK in Seattle, WA. The broadcast was 300 baud and you just hooked your modem to your radio. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Oct 7 15:56:33 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Masscomp machines References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <002601c4acb0$ca8d5ca0$0200a8c0@geoff> http://www.computer-archiv.de/ http://www.eforth.com.tw/academy/library/forthnotebook2%5Ccatimageprocessor. htm http://www.enter.net/~frisk/ccur/ http://www.ccur.com/corp_companyhistory.asp?h=1 Jules , above links just 4 of 82 found with webferret - recommended multi-search engine.-unless it's got spyware ,but I haven't found any yet . Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: Masscomp machines > > Anyone out there got any info on Masscomp machines (or own one)? I found > one the other day at BP (in something of a sorry state) but info on the > 'net seems pretty scarce. Rumour has it that they ran some flavour of > real-time Unix, and that multi-cpu machines were available - that's > about all the good ol' Internet has to offer, at least according to > Google. > > This particular one doesn't have a model number on the front, but the > sticker on the back implies it's a 'mwb515'. > > I'm particularly after a keyboard photo right now - I've got the system > unit and monitor, but there's no keyboard with it. Hopefully it's either > in the 'unknown keyboards' pile or has been accidentally tidied away in > a different pile of hardware :-) > > Hmm, it presumably has a mouse too, which presumably plugs into the > keyboard as I didn't see an obvious mouse port on the back of the > machine. > > cheers, > > Jules > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 05/10/04 From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Oct 7 16:00:53 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Masscomp machines References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <002701c4acb0$caea70c0$0200a8c0@geoff> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5127950360& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW One for sale . Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" > Anyone out there got any info on Masscomp machines (or own one)? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 05/10/04 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 7 17:20:33 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 11:17 AM 10/6/04 +1200, Don Hills wrote: >Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >I remember that! It was some bar code variant, I think the > >code was some BASIC hack small enough to type in. I have no > >recollection what the hardware was though. 1980s. > >Cauzin SoftStrip. Basically a 2-D barcode, read with a handheld scanner. I have one of the readers, and curiously the format did NOT die, but moved to commercial applications like trade show badges. I wonder if anybody ever reverse engineered the code so that softstrips could be read on a scanner? From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 7 18:14:13 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: It is little known (but documented) that, during WWII, radio station KHJ in Los Angeles ( and undoubtedly many others ) sent radio-teletype signals by shifitng the carrier a miniscule amount - I think about 10 htz, and using a very slow baud rate. This would not be noticed by the average equipment of the day, and would take very specialized gear to recover, store and print But it allowed messages to be sent large distances by powerful transmitters - completely 'in the blind'. Cheers John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 17:48:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Oct 7, 4 03:17:48 am Message-ID: > > There were discussions on the list years ago about programs being sent out > over the radio as in the UK so you would plug your radio output into your > computer's cassette input to receive the program: mass software > distribution! You're thinking of 'Basicode', which actually started in The Netherlands. The thing was that the programs were sort-of universal, and could be run on most home computers of the time (TRS-80, PET, Apple ][, BBC micro, etc). You got a translator tape that was machine-specific (actually, it was one tape with machine-specific programs recorded one after the other on it, you loaded the appropriate one for your machine), then you could load and run any Basicode program. The audio format was essentially CUTS 1200 baud, and machine-specific commands (like 'clear screen' which was CLS on a TRS80, HOME on some other machines, etc) were replaced with GOSUBs to particular line numbers -- part of the translator was a set of BASIC subroutines. And you didn't normally connect the radio to the computer. It was better to record the programs on tape, the load them into the computer later. That way you had a second chance if you got the volume setting wrong or something :-) There was also a scheme to transmit BBC BASIC programs on teletext (a text service trasmitted on normal TV signals, sent during the field blanking interval). The BBC micro had a couple of teletext decoders available for it (one from Acorn, a rather better one from Morley), and you could directly load these programs into your Beeb and save them on tape or disk. -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 7 18:24:24 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain><001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer><145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com> <00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4acc4$c9865cd0$15a8ba3f@screamer> 7.62 x 39 may, or may not penetrate a laptop, depending on what it hits internally. I used to get to 'destroy' NEC portable product prototypes. Often visiting Japaneese engineers would get great joy out of taking some old, troublsome prototypes to a range and dispatching them with small arms fire. Great fun, so long as you remove the nasty bits first (batteries, etc.). Of course you need to clean up the range carefully when your done and all.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "Christopher McNabb" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: Re: now there's a good head crash > > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. > > I believe my Mosin-Nagant uses 7.62x54. I'll have to try that out (digging > for a PC hard drive). My chinese SKS uses the lesser 7.62x39 - but with a 40 > shot bananna clip, you can produce a constant hammering effect *GRIN* > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 7 18:26:37 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain><001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer><145cecdd041007045264aba4ee@mail.gmail.com><00fc01c4ac73$78a4cfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <000601c4ac74$b6ad48d0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <001201c4acc5$189ccac0$15a8ba3f@screamer> Velocity. 7,62 x 39 gives you a 123 grain slug moving at around 2300 feet per second. A .45 automatic (.45 ACP) gives you 230 grains moving at only 800 fps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 9:51 AM Subject: Re: now there's a good head crash > > > > > It has been my experience that just a crappy PC harddrive will stop a > > > .45 ACP. They don't do so well against a 7.62x54R, though. > > > Here is something I dont understand. > .45 is about 11,5 mm, while 7.62 is uuuuhhh 7.62 mm. > How can the .45 come out worst? > Nico (sniper in Danish National guard) > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 22-09-2004 From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 7 18:31:16 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash References: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <002101c4acc5$bf0cabf0$15a8ba3f@screamer> Be careful with high velocity rounds against pins, I've seen shots come right back at you. Bowling pin shooters (its a handgun sport) use flat-pointed, heavy rounds to 'smack' the pins back off the table. I can't reccomend any FMJ round for this sport, use a soft-point round (like the Wolf 7.62 x 39) if you must use a rifle for a handgun sport! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash > > We hang the holed platters into mobiles. > > My favorite thing to shoot at is bowling ball pins. Most things I shoot at > with my SKS don't hold up well after a few clips are emptied into it; they > tend to disintegrate and fall apart. But I bought a case of used bowling > ball pins..... > > Because of the semiflexible (and thick) plastic coating around the wooden > pin, they tend to stay intact even after many clips have been emptied into > them. MOST fun is to install an eyebolt into the top of the pin and hang it > on a wire stretched horizontally between two trees. Then you truely have the > carnival midway effect of hitting the pin and it spins around on the wire. > Loads of fun :) > > Jay West > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Oct 7 18:41:16 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <002601c4acb0$ca8d5ca0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <002c01c4acc7$24f4d130$15a8ba3f@screamer> Is anyone on the list familiar with vector display monitors? I'd like to build an interface to connect some Wells Gardner 19V2000 monitors (think battlezone here) to HP1350 or Imlac PDS-1 vector generators. I can easily build a converter to boost the low voltage analog vector signals up to the +/- 10 volt levels needed by the WG 19V2000, but I see another problem... I read 'The Secret Life of Vector Generators", and notices that Atari vector generators 'rest' the beam at the center of the screen. There is a comment about doing this to prevent the deflection amp transistors from smoking. But the HP 1350 graphics translator 'rests' the beam at the lower left hand corner of the screen, not the center. Simple analog amplification and centering offsets would cause the WG 19V2000 to deflect the beam to the lower left corner between each display update. I'm not sure the deflection amps can take this for too long. One option would be to pull the deflection amp transistors off the cheap sheet steel frame of the monitor and install them onto a reasonable heat sink, perhaps with a small fan for cooling. But even then I'm not sure they would be inside their safe operating area. I need to recheck, but I'm fairly sure the Imlac PDS-1 analog vector outputs also work this same way. (I may use a Tektronics 611 storage tube for the Imlac, but I'd like the option of using the Wells Gardner...) From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 7 19:59:56 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues In-Reply-To: <002c01c4acc7$24f4d130$15a8ba3f@screamer> References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <002601c4acb0$ca8d5ca0$0200a8c0@geoff> <002c01c4acc7$24f4d130$15a8ba3f@screamer> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Bob Shannon wrote: > Is anyone on the list familiar with vector display monitors? Not specifically, but related: > I read 'The Secret Life of Vector Generators", and notices that Atari vector > generators 'rest' the beam at the center of the screen. There is a comment > about > doing this to prevent the deflection amp transistors from smoking. > > But the HP 1350 graphics translator 'rests' the beam at the lower left hand > corner of the screen, not the center. If the generator turns off write current (eg. Z axis off) when "at rest" you can let the beam rest whereever you want. If it's a 4-quadrant system eg. location (0, 0) is X=0V, Y=0V, you can simply multiply X and Y by 0 when Z=0, aka turn off X and Y. If you're simultaneously translating from 4-quadrant to 1-quadrant (eg. (0, 0) is X=0V, Y=0V) then you can force X=Y= (fullscale / 2) whenever Z is off. Both schemes could be done with an opamp each dimension, probably re-use one already present. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 7 21:34:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash References: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <002101c4acc5$bf0cabf0$15a8ba3f@screamer> Message-ID: <003b01c4acdf$64ba6c40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > Be careful with high velocity rounds against pins, I've seen shots come > right back at you. > > Bowling pin shooters (its a handgun sport) use flat-pointed, heavy rounds > to > 'smack' the pins back off the table. I can't reccomend any FMJ round for > this sport, Odd, precisely because they are using a flat heavy round to 'smack' the pin, is exactly WHY you've probably seen shots come back at you. The 7.62x39 rounds go into the pin and come very cleanly out the back. But the heavy semiflexible coating keeps the target whole, it almost self-seals on entry and exit after the bullet passes through it. Maybe older pins are not coated with this thick plastic over a wooden core, but mine are. Completely wooden pins with no thick plastic coating would disintegrage and split up after the first shot or two. > use a soft-point round (like the Wolf 7.62 x 39) if you must use a > rifle for a handgun sport! Handgun sport? Nah, I disagree. Shooting pins (at least the way I described, on a wire).... from 100 yards away is decidedly not a 'handgun sport'. Jay West From wacarder at usit.net Thu Oct 7 21:56:36 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Early PDP-11 memory question In-Reply-To: <003301c4ac77$f49026b0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: I found the docs on the 11/35 MF11-L core memory system, which shows the module arrangement of the H214, G110, and G231 boards that I was wondering about earlier. In case anyone ever encounters this kind of core memory, here's they layout: This view is from the wiring side of the backplane. Slot Module 9 M920 H214 8 G110 7 G231 6 H214 5 G110 4 G231 3 G110 2 G231 1 M981 H214 This matches precisely to the boards I have that had been removed from the MF11-L backplane in the CPU box. Ashley From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Oct 7 21:51:40 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10/9) Message-ID: <000101c4ace1$bd107d10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> DEC 11/83 (or 73?) system with 2 RP06 drives and several DECwriter terminals needs to be picked up this weekend in the New Buffalo, MI area (Lake Michigan near the Indiana/Michigan border) - you'll need at least a van or large pickup truck. Please come prepared to take it all - no cherry picking! Email me immediately or call me tomorrow (Friday, 10/8) at 847.424.7320 (work) or 312.804.4508 (cell). Owner is clearing out his warehouse over the weekend. Jack Rubin jack.rubin -at- ameritech.net From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 7 22:07:16 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041007230716.009688b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've got news for you. They still do the same type of thing. There are hidden signals all over the sperctrum. There ARE benefits to owning a GOOD surveillance reciever :-) Joe At 07:14 PM 10/7/04 -0400, you wrote: > > > It is little known (but documented) that, during WWII, radio station KHJ >in Los Angeles ( and undoubtedly many others ) sent radio-teletype signals >by shifitng the carrier a miniscule amount - I think about 10 htz, and >using a very slow baud rate. This would not be noticed by the average >equipment of the day, and would take very specialized gear to recover, >store and print > > But it allowed messages to be sent large distances by powerful >transmitters - completely 'in the blind'. > > Cheers > >John > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 7 22:20:49 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:59:56 PDT." Message-ID: <200410080320.i983Kn4U031315@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > >If the generator turns off write current (eg. Z axis off) when >"at rest" you can let the beam rest whereever you want. If it's >a 4-quadrant system eg. location (0, 0) is X=0V, Y=0V, you can >simply multiply X and Y by 0 when Z=0, aka turn off X and Y. I think the problem is not the phosphor, (i.e. turning off Z) but where the "drawing machine" leaves the deflection drivers. If it leaves the x & y in state where the drivers are turned on fully, the transistors get hot. As I recall (dimly), the center of the screen was 0,0 and the drivers (push-pull) where off so no current was flowing. (those vector machines were the first time I discovered that software could be written to trash hardware :-) -brad From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 7 22:29:08 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: Electronics Barn closing References: <000d01c4782c$217f46e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <6.0.3.0.2.20040802094719.04f02db0@enigma> Message-ID: <010501c4ace6$f9803100$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Dan Veeneman replied, on Monday, August 02, 2004: > A shame to see it happen. The Barn was the last real > electronics junkyard in the area, and a dependable place. It's final now... I just saw a note on the door saying the closure happened 29-Aug. Dammit. It's dead, Jim. John A. From rickb at bensene.com Fri Oct 8 00:37:03 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002101c4acf8$d708edd0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Wang Laboratories did this, using an 8-Track cartridge for recording program steps on the Wang 380 progammer for 300-Series Wang calculator packages. It wasn't a long-lasting data recording technology for Wang. It was only used on the 380, and was fairly quickly replaced with standard audio cassettes (though of course, they wanted you to buy the "Digital Certified" Wang cassettes) on the Wang 500, 600, and 700-series calculators. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage > Computer Festival > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 3:43 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: media what died a'bornin' > > > On Wed, 6 Oct 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Did anyone ever use 8-track cartridges for storing data? I've seen > > them used for echo machines, and a variant is still used > for storing > > jingles and idents for radio stations, although minidisc and > > sample-based systems have largely taken over. > > Dang, I'm drawing a blank right now but I had a conversation > not too long ago with someone who used 8-track to store data. > I forget who and what the circumstances were (i.e. was it > for hobbyist or commercial purposes?) > > But yes, it was done. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for > business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Oct 8 00:52:10 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:54 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am donderdag, 07.10.04, um 22:18 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Gene Buckle: >> There were discussions on the list years ago about programs being >> sent out >> over the radio as in the UK so you would plug your radio output into >> your >> computer's cassette input to receive the program: mass software >> distribution! >> > This was also done on Sunday afternoons in the mid 80's by a local rock > station, KZOK in Seattle, WA. The broadcast was 300 baud and you just > hooked your modem to your radio. A scheme, using data buried into the video signal was used in Germany. During theTV broadcast you could see the data as white stripes in the upper left corner. A small circuit was used to filter out the data and feed it into the RS232 port. I do not remember the exact name of the scheme , German readers can probably expand on this. Needless to say that only computer related broadcasts used this scheme... Another deadend : Elektor magazine used singles (45 rpm vinyl records) to distribute software for their SC/MP system.. Jos Dreesen From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 01:12:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues In-Reply-To: <200410080320.i983Kn4U031315@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410080320.i983Kn4U031315@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >If the generator turns off write current (eg. Z axis off) when > >"at rest" you can let the beam rest whereever you want. If it's > >a 4-quadrant system eg. location (0, 0) is X=0V, Y=0V, you can > >simply multiply X and Y by 0 when Z=0, aka turn off X and Y. > > I think the problem is not the phosphor, (i.e. turning off Z) but where > the "drawing machine" leaves the deflection drivers. It wasn't a concern for the phosphor, but the suggestion that maybe "Z" could be used to detect when the beam is "parked" as opposed to being arbitrarily placed at (0, 0). > If it leaves the x & y in state where the drivers are turned on fully, > the transistors get hot. What I meant was, if you find "Z" off (eg. nothing to be displayed) then you can put the beam in the center of the screen and save the transistors, within your adapter. > (those vector machines were the first time I discovered that software > could be written to trash hardware :-) In 1982, when I got a super-early IBM PC (working for Phoenix Software) the first thing I did was to burn out the fuse in the monitor with the wrong display-type DIPswitch setting... apparently the wrong horizontal freq makes the monitor draw a lot of current, by some miracle the Q didn't protect the fuse. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 8 01:50:06 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: OT Re: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: "Bob Shannon" "Re: OT Re: now there's a good head crash" (Oct 7, 19:31) References: <019701c4ac7a$60de8580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <002101c4acc5$bf0cabf0$15a8ba3f@screamer> Message-ID: <10410080750.ZM20892@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7 2004, 19:31, Bob Shannon wrote: > Be careful with high velocity rounds against pins, I've seen shots come > right > back at you. > > Bowling pin shooters (its a handgun sport) use flat-pointed, heavy rounds to > 'smack' the pins back off the table. Indeed, we used to use "pin-grabbers" -- like a flat-nosed "wadcutter" but with teeth moulded into the front to reduce the chance of bouncing back. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cthilo at unix-ag.org Fri Oct 8 02:38:04 2004 From: cthilo at unix-ag.org (Thilo Schmidt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Ethan in Userfriendly Cartoon Message-ID: <20041008073804.GA17087@unix-ag.org> Looks like Ethan has a guest appearance in todays userfriendly cartoon... ;-) http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041008 bye Thilo From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 7 18:57:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Ethan in Userfriendly Cartoon In-Reply-To: <20041008073804.GA17087@unix-ag.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Thilo Schmidt wrote: > Looks like Ethan has a guest appearance in todays userfriendly cartoon... ;-) > > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041008 Hey, cool! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Oct 8 03:02:34 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Oct 2004 19:14:13 EDT." Message-ID: <200410080802.JAA02067@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, John Lawson said: > > > It is little known (but documented) that, during WWII, radio station KHJ > in Los Angeles ( and undoubtedly many others ) sent radio-teletype signals > by shifitng the carrier a miniscule amount - I think about 10 htz, and > using a very slow baud rate. This would not be noticed by the average > equipment of the day, and would take very specialized gear to recover, > store and print > > But it allowed messages to be sent large distances by powerful > transmitters - completely 'in the blind'. The BBC still do this on their 198KHz long wave transmitter, easily heard by switching the receiver to ssb mode. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 8 05:00:41 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> Message-ID: <41666549.3040001@gjcp.net> >>On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >>>Modern head crashes are boring though. It's no good unless platters >>>physically explode :-) If only they could catch fire, too. There just >>>aren't enough modern-day computing war stories around... >> >>DAMN RIGHT! Crappy PC/Mac hardware with stupid power cubes! At >>least CRTs can give you a shock, these wimpy laptop things >>barely hurt when used as bludgeons. Now, you don't have many of these over in the US, but in the UK and Europe we have those lovely old Citroens with the hydraulic suspension (Rolls-Royce use a cheap and crappy copy of it for their own cars). I have some dead CD-ROM drives lying about, that are about the same height as the gap between the ground and the chassis longeron on not-quite-full-height (you can adjust the ground clearance with a control inside the car), and full height (for jacking it up) gives enough space to fit a CD-ROM with a couple of bits of wooden packing (to protect the underseal). So, to reiterate, with the suspension fully pressurised (no travel, everything on the upper stop) the ground clearance is around 10", with the suspension fully depressurised it's around 2". Will a CD-ROM support 2000kg of car? Gordon. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Oct 8 07:55:13 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Cromemco software question Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC7F@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Hello, all: Here's another stumper. I was able to get copies of some of the Cromemco paper tape software, particularly Space War, so I can test it with a Dazzler add-on for the Altair32 emulator. Can anyone with Cromemco experience tell me what loader should be used to load this software into a machine? I don't recall seeing anything in the manual that revealed this secret. Thanks. Rich From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 8 08:26:35 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' References: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <16742.38283.69792.748861@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Lawson writes: John> It is little known (but documented) that, during WWII, radio John> station KHJ in Los Angeles ( and undoubtedly many others ) sent John> radio-teletype signals by shifitng the carrier a miniscule John> amount - I think about 10 htz, and using a very slow baud rate. John> This would not be noticed by the average equipment of the day, John> and would take very specialized gear to recover, store and John> print John> But it allowed messages to be sent large distances by powerful John> transmitters - completely 'in the blind'. That's somewhat like the digital time code that WWV sends -- one baud, on a 100 Hz subcarrier on the regular shortwave signal. You won't hear it with a typical shortwave radio speaker, but if you plug in a pair of hi-fi headphones you'll heard something that sounds vaguely like a string bass... Then there are the VLF stations -- there is (or was) a Navy station around 17 kHz. I don't remember what they use for modulation. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 8 08:32:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10/9) References: <000101c4ace1$bd107d10$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <16742.38627.748980.388295@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jack" == Jack Rubin writes: Jack> DEC 11/83 (or 73?) system with 2 RP06 drives ... ??? A Q-bus system with RP06 drives??? paul From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 8 08:48:18 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> So, my guess, it is probably an "11/83". The 11/83 QBUS CPU board plus memory on QBUS side, then the QBUS-UNIBUS bridge and the rest is UNIBUS with its famous line of (beautiful) peripherals. - Henk. > >>>>> "Jack" == Jack Rubin writes: > > Jack> DEC 11/83 (or 73?) system with 2 RP06 drives ... > > ??? A Q-bus system with RP06 drives??? > > paul From cmcnabb at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:09:43 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <145cecdd0410080709595b0517@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:48:18 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > So, my guess, it is probably an "11/83". > The 11/83 QBUS CPU board plus memory on QBUS side, then the > QBUS-UNIBUS bridge and the rest is UNIBUS with its famous > line of (beautiful) peripherals. > > - Henk. That would make it, in fact, an 11/84. The 11/83 is all QBUS, the 11/84 is the 11/83 CPU with the Bridge. From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 8 09:44:41 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Correct. I have an 11/84 in 10.5" box (console at the right-hand side) and one 11/83 in 5.25" box (console in the middle of the front). The original poster is maybe not so "DEC-aware", but then again, I often doubt my DEC knowledge too. How much difference is obvious in just a glance at an 11/73 and an 11/83? - Henk, PA8PDP. > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christopher McNabb > Sent: vrijdag 8 oktober 2004 16:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend > (10 /9) > > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:48:18 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > > So, my guess, it is probably an "11/83". > > The 11/83 QBUS CPU board plus memory on QBUS side, then the > > QBUS-UNIBUS bridge and the rest is UNIBUS with its famous > > line of (beautiful) peripherals. > > > > - Henk. > > That would make it, in fact, an 11/84. The 11/83 is all QBUS, the > 11/84 is the 11/83 CPU with the Bridge. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Oct 8 09:56:39 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <200410080756.39723.lbickley@bickleywest.com> That's an 11/84 = Qbus-CPU, PMI Memory, QBus-UNIBUS converter UNIBUS Peripherals. Lyle On Friday 08 October 2004 06:48, Gooijen H wrote: > So, my guess, it is probably an "11/83". > The 11/83 QBUS CPU board plus memory on QBUS side, then the > QBUS-UNIBUS bridge and the rest is UNIBUS with its famous > line of (beautiful) peripherals. > > - Henk. > > > >>>>> "Jack" == Jack Rubin writes: > > > > Jack> DEC 11/83 (or 73?) system with 2 RP06 drives ... > > > > ??? A Q-bus system with RP06 drives??? > > > > paul -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 8 10:11:30 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041008111025.036548f8@192.168.0.1> At 10:44 AM 10/8/2004, you wrote: >The original poster is maybe not so "DEC-aware", but then again, >I often doubt my DEC knowledge too. >How much difference is obvious in just a glance at an 11/73 and >an 11/83? Ditto. Most likely an 11/84, but could have a Qniverter or Microverter: http://www.able.com/wizzd.html Of course, while we're yakking, the patient is dying. :-) Ed K. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 8 10:58:32 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041008111025.036548f8@192.168.0.1> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041008115408.03c45e90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Ed Kelleher may have mentioned these words: >Of course, while we're yakking, the patient is dying. :-) I have enough equipment to retrieve it, but I'm about 400 miles away (smack in the middle of nowhere) and no place to store it long-term. Had I a weeks notice... :-( Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From RCini at congressfinancial.com Fri Oct 8 11:37:58 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Good Windows FTP Servers Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Hello, all: Putting any Windows jokes aside, I'm looking for a decent Win32-based FTP server program to use at home to move files from my weather station computer to an Apache Web server which is also at home. The goal here is to open a single port in the firewall so I can log in and see the weather at my house. Not being familiar with Apache, maybe there's a way to do this without an FTP server, but I need to move a text-based data file every 5 minutes from the weather station program to the http server, both of which presently will reside on the same PC. The weather program handles all aspects of creating the data file periodically and will upload the data using ftp -- it does not provide for direct copying of files, the assumption being that this data is being uploaded to a server that's not on the same physical machine. I wanted to get some recommendations/user's favorites before I start Googling. Thanks. Rich From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 8 11:45:24 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Snopes on Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> References: <003601c4a03f$29040690$0500fea9@game> <4150F010.9050105@barrera.org> Message-ID: <200410081649.MAA04318@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> As for typewriters, I still have one on my desk at work, I find that >> a typewriter is still useful, even now. > Really?! For what? Well, I can't say what someone else would find one useful for. But my mother would love to get her hands on a working typewriter, because she is so completely computer-illiterate that even something as comparatively simple as a "dedicated word processor" (a specialized computer in a typewriter form-factor) is beyond her. But typewriters she's worked with most of her life, and if its human interface is that of a real electromech typewriter, she can handle it. To be sure, I suspect part of her incompetence with anything bordering on a computer is due to convincing herself she's incompetent. But since we live on opposite sides of the continent, I'm not really in any position to cure it even if so. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 8 11:59:56 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Good Windows FTP Servers References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <002801c4ad58$3d5c4140$f92c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'CCTalk'" Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:37 PM Subject: OT: Good Windows FTP Servers > Hello, all: > > Putting any Windows jokes aside, I'm looking for a decent > Win32-based FTP server program to use at home to move files from my weather > station computer to an Apache Web server which is also at home. The goal > here is to open a single port in the firewall so I can log in and see the > weather at my house. > > Not being familiar with Apache, maybe there's a way to do this > without an FTP server, but I need to move a text-based data file every 5 > minutes from the weather station program to the http server, both of which > presently will reside on the same PC. The weather program handles all > aspects of creating the data file periodically and will upload the data > using ftp -- it does not provide for direct copying of files, the assumption > being that this data is being uploaded to a server that's not on the same > physical machine. > > I wanted to get some recommendations/user's favorites before I start > Googling. > > Thanks. > > Rich > Serv-U FTP works for me From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 8 12:14:21 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Good Windows FTP Servers In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <1097255661.22086.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 12:37 -0400, Cini, Richard wrote: > Hello, all: > > Putting any Windows jokes aside, awww! > I'm looking for a decent Win32-based FTP server program to use at > home to move files from my weather station computer to an Apache > Web server which is also at home. I don't have any specific recommendations, but if that's all (or almost all) that you'll use the ftp server for, I imagine pretty much anything will do as it's not going to have to handle any serious load - it'll either work or it won't. > Not being familiar with Apache, maybe there's a way to do this > without an FTP server, well an http upload would work, but it'd need some code on the server (compiled cgi, Java servlet, php script etc.) to receive the file and do something useful with it, and something on your client machine would obviously need some code that can talk http and actually do the file upload. Possibly more trouble than it's worth given that it sounds like you have the client bit covered (using ftp) already. Of course the server-side bit using http is likely pretty easy, as I expect there are lots of free examples of upload scripts on the 'net - but the client-side may or may not be tricky to either find an example of or write your own. I did write my own ftp server in Java a few years back as I needed a portable one that'd work on various platforms, but I have absolutely no idea what I did with the code unfortunately :-( cheers, Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 8 12:24:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Good Windows FTP Servers References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <16742.52535.733886.942640@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Some years ago, I used the "jgaa" FTP server -- see http://support.jgaa.com/ Haven't used it for quite a while, though. paul From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 8 13:14:41 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9) In-Reply-To: Gooijen H "RE: URGENT - DEC 11/83 (?) needs to be picked up this weekend (10 /9)" (Oct 8, 16:44) References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111331F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <10410081914.ZM21334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8 2004, 16:44, Gooijen H wrote: > Correct. > I have an 11/84 in 10.5" box (console at the right-hand side) > and one 11/83 in 5.25" box (console in the middle of the front). > The original poster is maybe not so "DEC-aware", but then again, > I often doubt my DEC knowledge too. > How much difference is obvious in just a glance at an 11/73 and > an 11/83? Without looking at the boards, it's impossible to tell for certain. Some 11/73s were upgraded without changing the badges on the front. *Usually* a microPDP-11/73 is in a BA23 and a microPDP-11/83 is in a BA123, but not always. The real difference is in the use of normal QBus versus PMI memory; that makes more difference to the speed than just about anything else. Originally, an 11/73 would have had a 15MHz KDJ11 and an 11/83 would have been 18MHz, so they'd have had slightly different suffixes on the M-numbers, and they'd have slightly different boot ROMs, but any of these things may have been changed. What an OS goes by is whether the memory is PMI or not. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 8 13:39:08 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Ethan in Userfriendly Cartoon In-Reply-To: <20041008073804.GA17087@unix-ag.org> References: <20041008073804.GA17087@unix-ag.org> Message-ID: <20041008183908.GA13347@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 09:38:04AM +0200, Thilo Schmidt wrote: > Looks like Ethan has a guest appearance in todays userfriendly cartoon... ;-) > > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041008 LOL! I wonder where the storyline is going next... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 08-Oct-2004 18:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.2 F (-47.9 C) Windchill -89.09 F (-67.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.2 kts Grid 020 Barometer 690.3 mb (10238. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 13:41:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: now there's a good head crash In-Reply-To: <41666549.3040001@gjcp.net> References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com><6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc><200410041527.16548.dtwright@uiuc.edu><1096972425.16764.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <001501c4ac0e$607163e0$e9a9ba3f@screamer> <41666549.3040001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Will a CD-ROM support 2000kg of car? Let us know how it works out! :-) From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 13:44:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Cromemco software question In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC7F@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC7F@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > Can anyone with Cromemco experience tell me what loader should be > used to load this software into a machine? I don't recall seeing anything in > the manual that revealed this secret. Have you examined the data on the tape? Hex/ascii formats are easy to decode, and binary ones are usually pretty trivial. They are almost always something dumb like: leader leader leader... flag character or sequence record type (1=data, 2=start addr, 0=stop, that sort of thing) load address (2 bytes) byte count (1, 2) data.... checksum more records... ASCII vs. binary, even, would narrow your choices. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 8 13:47:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20041008114531.X79602@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Jos Dreesen wrote: > A scheme, using data buried into the video signal was used in Germany. > During theTV broadcast you could see the data as white stripes in the > upper left corner. > A small circuit was used to filter out the data and feed it into the > RS232 port. > I do not remember the exact name of the scheme , German readers can > probably expand on this. > Needless to say that only computer related broadcasts used this > scheme... In the U.S., the "closed caption" system, which is primarily for text for hard of hearing folk, puts two bytes of ASCII into line 21 of the VBI (vertical blanking interval). It CAN be used for other purposes. From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 8 14:03:42 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to this list? * Subterranean termites (eating manuals and other cardboard/paper products) Fortunately, they had only mostly started on the cardboard boxes, and only damaged some of the manuals. I'm thinking that keeping the manuals in ziplock bags might be a good idea for any manuals that need to be packed away. This would also protect them from moisture if the boxes got wet. * Leaky storage areas leading to equipment and documentation being ruined. I've had quite a few books and manuals that had to be thrown away (nothing really rare, hard to come by, or valuable) due to a leaky roof where they were being stored. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 8 14:04:56 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4166E4D8.3020904@jetnet.ab.ca> Marvin Johnston wrote: > In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I > saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need > to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? How about no backups of floppy disks, they can be bad still in a unopened box of software. I found this with a few old games I bought. Also no backup of 'tape backup software'. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Oct 8 14:14:52 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4166E72C.70408@vzavenue.net> Canon object.stations 41's. Varta NiCd batteries start leaking. James Marvin Johnston wrote: >In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I >saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need >to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? > >* Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces >The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo >Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 >CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to >this list? > > > > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 8 14:16:16 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Good Windows FTP Servers In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAEC87@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <4166E780.2040903@gjcp.net> Cini, Richard wrote: > Not being familiar with Apache, maybe there's a way to do this > without an FTP server, but I need to move a text-based data file every 5 > I think an FTP server would be overkill for that. Could you use something like WinSCP to copy the file across to the webserver? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 8 14:19:39 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> Message-ID: <4166E84B.3040405@gjcp.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: > * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces > The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo > Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 > CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to > this list? A lot of the elderly synthesizers I work on suffer from this. For some reason, Polysixes seem to suffer from this particularly badly - maybe it was that particular make of battery? Gordon From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 8 06:34:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I > saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need > to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? > > * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces > The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo > Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 > CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to > this list? The Lisa is very susceptible to this issue. > * Subterranean termites (eating manuals and other cardboard/paper > products) > Fortunately, they had only mostly started on the cardboard boxes, and > only damaged some of the manuals. I'm thinking that keeping the manuals > in ziplock bags might be a good idea for any manuals that need to be > packed away. This would also protect them from moisture if the boxes got > wet. I had this same problem last year. They ate through some of my magazines, including some early issues of Kilobaud Computing, which hurt :( I hopefully had the problem fixed (I hope they got them all), but I have a stack of boxes of magazines 12 wide and three deep and haven't had the time to go snooping to make sure nothing is going on at the bottom layer. Pests of any kind should be watched for, including rodents that will pee all over your circuit boards like little bastard teenage vandals! > * Leaky storage areas leading to equipment and documentation being > ruined. > I've had quite a few books and manuals that had to be thrown away > (nothing really rare, hard to come by, or valuable) due to a leaky roof > where they were being stored. Also to worry about: * Paper rot (paper documents that are crumbling due to acid in the paper) * Bit rot (EPROMS or magnetic media that are nearing their theoretical lifespan) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 8 11:33:13 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041008113000.05f9be28@pc> At 12:52 AM 10/8/2004, Jos Dreesen wrote: >A scheme, using data buried into the video signal was used in Germany. >During theTV broadcast you could see the data as white stripes in the upper left corner. Back in June 2001, this mailing list discussed the Infocipher modems, circa 1990, an early cable-television-based broadcast mechanism. 9600 baud, 24 hours a day, in a compressed, packeted and repeating stream. Megabytes a day, back in the days of 2400 baud modems. Makes you think this would be a great value-added for today's cable Internet providers. Instead of fighting P2P, sell it as an extra. If it was a one-way stream, it would give the system extra bandwidth. It would be a great way to let people download encoded video, for example, like pay-per-view or a sliding window of shows, as the BBC proposes. Click on the shows you want, wait a day, and they appear on your hard disk. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 8 11:25:43 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Interesting article on UCSD Pascal team annual reunion Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041008112442.05c6b698@pc> I'd previously mentioned the UCSD reunion page at: http://alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm but there's another at: http://soeadm.ucsd.edu/events/Pascal/ And if you're closer to Mountain View, Wirth will be there the same week: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/index.php?id=1097188078 - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 8 11:46:33 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041007021257.0ae32cb8@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041008112740.05c6bbb8@pc> At 05:45 AM 10/7/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Wow, history repeats itself so soon. It's good that the CueCat engineers >managed to find work after the dot.bomb. Because, you know, that was such >a good idea that it screams for reincarnation! :) I still think it's a good idea. It'll show up in a thumb-drive-size device someday, maybe talking to your PC with USB or Bluetooth, or perhaps it all gets integrated into our next phones. We all need a quick way to exchange small bits of info: URLs, phone numbers, vCards. Scanning barcodes is an easy way to "remember" something you saw in print. I think an audio-based "barcode" is needed, too - imagine if your gizmo would automatically record the small bits of digital info it heard while it was with you - jingles from the radio and TV, something someone beamed to you over the phone, etc. What an interesting engineering problem: design an audio encoding suitable for a few dozen bytes that was pleasant-sounding to the ear, yet had a chance to work over AM radio or telephone. It could even just be the standardized start and end tones to bracket a snippet of audio that the device would record and decode later. Bring your gizmo to your PC or handheld or phone and share those bits of data, present them in a scrolling list... Very handy! - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 8 14:39:52 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> Message-ID: <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 12:03 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I > saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need > to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? Sunlight's a real killer for certain types of plastic and causes it to change colour - if you must leave equipment in the sun for long periods, at least make sure it gets the sun evenly :-) Some plastics react badly with each other when left for extended periods of time too and can stick together. Unfortunately there seems to be no way of knowing which types (power cables and polystyrene don't seem to do very well; we've also had an Amstrad PDA at the museum that had welded itself into its protective wallet...) Oh, watch out for rodents too. There's a TRS-80 at the museum which has had half its keys eaten... Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. > * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces > The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo > Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 > CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to > this list? Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in pocket calculators etc. From news at computercollector.com Fri Oct 8 15:03:17 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> >>>>> Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in pocket calculators etc. I agree. Recently I went to use my Palm III, and it wouldn't turn on. So I opened the battery cover to change them, and to my surprise, the dual AAAs were badly melted. Speaking of which... LOL, can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? Is my PDA salvageable? --- Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-10-08 at 12:03 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > In rummaging through classic computer stuff I haven't seen in a while, I > > saw several things that are definitely a problem. What other things need > > to be added to the list for collectors to watch out for? > > Sunlight's a real killer for certain types of plastic and causes it to > change colour - if you must leave equipment in the sun for long periods, > at least make sure it gets the sun evenly :-) > > Some plastics react badly with each other when left for extended periods > of time too and can stick together. Unfortunately there seems to be no > way of knowing which types (power cables and polystyrene don't seem to > do very well; we've also had an Amstrad PDA at the museum that had > welded itself into its protective wallet...) > > Oh, watch out for rodents too. There's a TRS-80 at the museum which has > had half its keys eaten... > > Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the > text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for > some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. > > > * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces > > The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo > > Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 > > CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to > > this list? > > Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in pocket > calculators etc. > > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 570 readers and counting! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 8 15:28:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: Storage Hazards" (Oct 8, 4:34) References: Message-ID: <10410082128.ZM21438@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8 2004, 4:34, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Also to worry about: > > * Paper rot (paper documents that are crumbling due to acid in the paper) > * Bit rot (EPROMS or magnetic media that are nearing their theoretical > lifespan) I was going to mention that. Also electrolytic capacitors that need reformed. Old oil/grease in fan bearings and the like, which has turned to varnish/wax and seized the bearings. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 8 15:22:51 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Storage Hazards" (Oct 8, 19:39) References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10410082122.ZM21435@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8 2004, 19:39, Jules Richardson wrote: > Some plastics react badly with each other when left for extended periods > of time too and can stick together. Unfortunately there seems to be no > way of knowing which types (power cables and polystyrene don't seem to > do very well; we've also had an Amstrad PDA at the museum that had > welded itself into its protective wallet...) It's now my habit to clean all such cables with white spirit (light kerosene) or turpentine substitute to remove the icky remains. > Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the > text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for > some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. Ditto for photocopies. It's the same problem as the power cable vs expanded polystyrene, actually. Plasticisers in the PVC migrate into the polystyrene or toner (which is plastic). A sheet of acetate film, such as is used to make overhead projector transparencies (viewgraphs) makes a moderately effective barrier. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 16:00:54 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E4D8.3020904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> <4166E4D8.3020904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > How about no backups of floppy disks, they can be bad still in a unopened > box of software. I found this with a few old games I bought. if (/.*back.*up.*/) { print "We should stop saying \"backing up\" and say \"restoring\".\n"; print "Floppies and tapes might as well be Signetics WOMs after "; print "a year or two or ten.\n"; print "Its not what we store today, but what we can read in 2050.\n"; } > Also no backup of 'tape backup software'. D'OH! See? From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 16:21:45 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: Never store printed matter in horizontal stacks, store it vertically. The crap on the bottom always seems to suffer from something, I think even the most microscopic channels for air let moisture equalize, even if it takes years, it's better than compressed. Besides you can't really see anything, so piling and re-piling damages things. Never never store anything on the floor! Raise it up at least an inch. Concrete floors are POROUS, and usually have dirt under them, and anywhere outside of desert regions will have moisture below the concrete, which will wick it up, guarenteed. A cheap solution is to lay 2x4's (or EU equiv) on the floor, and put boards across them, leaving gaps for air circulation. Leave space around things for air circulation. Moisture content of the air changes seasonally everywhere, clay paper is a bit hygroscopic, you want it to be able to dry out, albeit slowly. I've not had a problem with rodentia here, yet anyways, but there are a lot of pill bugs (so-called, little gray centipedes) that seem to like dark moisture, they scurry at night. I think they'd love to lve under a magazine laying on the concrete. They don't climb. Temperature extremes aren't good, but mainly they accellerate the workings of moisture-related processes. I'm not an expert, but I've got some stuff, and have pawed through a lot of stuff untouched for decades, and the bottom-of-the-pile is either utterly choice or a complete ruin, depending on the environment. And much of the bottom-is-good stuff I've seen is due to surplus hounds and kids not getting access to ruin it. My lab is an unheated converted garage, concrete floor, in Los Angeles, though it's insulated, proper ventilation. Books are stored on shelves, upright, and the lowest shelves (about 4" from the floor) get low-value stuff only. All electronic goodies are on metal shelves. The LGP-21 is in the house. > Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in pocket > calculators etc. Batteries simply cannot be left in devices in storage, period, nor of course removable media in drives. The few things I own with internal batteries, that aren't temporal PC hardware, I've moved the battery packs off the PC boards and onto the chassis. I generally solder a stack of NiCds together, wrap in fish paper, cable tie it to the chassis somewhere inocuous, and run two-conductor ribbon cord to the original location. I often get to then use AA instead of AAA size, etc. From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 16:26:27 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Speaking of which... LOL, can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? Is > my PDA salvageable? When I used to operate DG Nova's, Linctapes and Silent 700's on the decks of boats (25' work boats up to 400' mud boats) things would occasionally get salt misted, mainly the Silent 700's (the DG+tape lived in a sealable fiberglas cabinet), I'd disassemble the thing, put it in a big sink and scrub it with soapy water and a very soft bristle brush, then compressed-air dry, then let it dry overnight. Worked every time. Assuming there are no power sources nearly all electronics is water safe. LCDs I don't know about though, and things like membrane switches, while their components are probanbly safe, will trap water unless disassembled. (Most electronic assembly processes use water-soluable fluxes and such and often get a water bath. Other things to watch for are trimpots. But if the device is dead, what have you got to lose?) From paulpenn at knology.net Fri Oct 8 16:26:51 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004c01c4ad7d$86c4faf0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> > can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? The electrolyte in most computer batteries is alkaline, not acid. I recently had good success with a bit of white vinegar on a cotton swab. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 8 16:33:22 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113320@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Jules wrote: Toner consists of hars, pigment and iron particles. In a photocopier the combination of temperature and pressure "prints" the toner onto the (paper) sheet. Your copies get a little sticky at warmer days, and the pressure inside the binder is doing the rest. I guess that you are right when you say that *any* batteries cause corrosion over time. I never saw batteries made of *one* piece of metal enclosure. There must be some opening in that case to get the two poles (as wires) to the outside world. Et voil?: there you have the weak spot that eventually will cause a leak! BTW an other place toi check for leaky batteries are DECstations and VAXstations (or ...servers). They also have a NiCad (!!!!) "on board". - Henk, PA8PDP ; Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the ; text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for ; some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. ; ; > * Leaky nicad batteries that will "eat" the circuit board traces ; > The early computers that come quickly to mind are the TRS-100, Lobo ; > Drives Max 80, NEC 8201A, 286 and later motherboards, and S-100 ; > CompuWatch Clock/Calendar boards. Any others that should be added to ; > this list? ; ; Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in ; pocket calculators etc. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 8 16:53:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16743.3159.859089.739518@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> Assuming there are no power sources nearly all electronics is Tom> water safe. LCDs I don't know about though, and things like Tom> membrane switches, while their components are probanbly safe, Tom> will trap water unless disassembled. Indeed they will. LK201s will be utterly destroyed if you get them wet, and I have found no way to disassemble them. paul From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 8 16:55:47 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113320@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113320@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <20041008215547.GD25381@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 11:33:22PM +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > Jules wrote: > Toner consists of hars, pigment and iron particles. In a photocopier > the combination of temperature and pressure "prints" the toner onto > the (paper) sheet. > Your copies get a little sticky at warmer days, and the pressure inside > the binder is doing the rest. While all of that is true, there's an additional thing going on there... Toner has an affinity for adhering to certain materials - one is the vinyl that 3-ring binders are clad with, the other is toner itself. It takes much longer for double-sided copies to stick to themselves, but under a variety of storage conditions, it does happen. Sticking to binder covers is much quicker, and as someone else here pointed out, ensuring there is a blank page at the front and back goes a long way to preventing problems. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 08-Oct-2004 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.9 F (-47.8 C) Windchill -91.5 F (-68.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16 kts Grid 025 Barometer 690.3 mb (10238. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 8 17:08:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <200410082208.PAA18125@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter" >>>>>> Won't *any* batteries cause corrosion over time? E.g. anything in pocket >calculators etc. > >I agree. Recently I went to use my Palm III, and it wouldn't turn on. So I >opened the battery cover to change them, and to my surprise, the dual AAAs were >badly melted. > >Speaking of which... LOL, can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? Is >my PDA salvageable? > ---snip--- Pinball machines often have this problem. Cleaning with just soap and water is not enough. Most current day batteries use an alkaline electrolyte. This will continue to do damage unless neutralized. On boards for pinball machine, using vinegar seems to do the trick. We first soak the board in a bath of 50% white distilled vinegar for several hours and then use a stiff brush to remove as much of the corrosion deposits as one can. Do note that you may need to remove things like dip switches, relays and keypad covers ( think in terms of where water can hide ). Also, any socket that is even slightly suspect will need to be replaced. After the soak, use a water hose and spray rinse the board well. Shake of excess water and rinse again. Dry quickly in a warm place. I often set them in the sun but for winter drying, an oven set to about 140-150F works well. Use a cookie pan or piece of foil to block direct heat radiation from the heating elements ( not a problem in convection ovens. Also don't even think of using a microwave! ). Any trace that is rotted through will need to be replaced. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 17:10:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:55 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041008215547.GD25381@bos7.spole.gov> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113320@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <20041008215547.GD25381@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It takes much longer for double-sided copies to stick to themselves, but > under a variety of storage conditions, it does happen. Sticking to binder > covers is much quicker, and as someone else here pointed out, ensuring there > is a blank page at the front and back goes a long way to preventing problems. I have binders of xerographic copies that stick to themselves. xerography isn't very permanent. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 8 17:18:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <200410082218.PAA18131@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >Pests of any kind should be watched for, including rodents that will pee >all over your circuit boards like little bastard teenage vandals! > ---snip--- Hi This is really bad stuff. One of the things I've seen with mouse piss is that the legs of many IC's are steel cores with tin plating. I've seen where the IC leg will look fiine but the entire insides are rotted out from mouse piss. The lead would just crumble when squeezed with needle nose pliers. I have in the past assumed this was acid damage and use baking soda solution and rinse. It seems to help but usually by the time I notice it, the damage is already done. I live in the mountains and critters are just part of living here. Still, I wouldn't trade it for living in any city I know of. Dwight From Ladyelec at aol.com Fri Oct 8 17:32:51 2004 From: Ladyelec at aol.com (Ladyelec@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Texas Harris county auctions Message-ID: <79.35d83c54.2e986f93@aol.com> I saw this in the peper and it might be a good site to check upon occasion. It is in Houston, Texas. 601 Lockwood, Houston, Texas http://www.purchasing.co.harris.tx.us/auction/directio.htm Harris County Purchasing Agent http://www.pur.hctx.net/ Click auctions on the left hand side. Harris County sells surplus and confiscated property through the Online Auction. Read the rules for bidding! Isa From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Oct 8 17:36:49 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <200410082218.PAA18131@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410082218.PAA18131@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: In message <200410082218.PAA18131@clulw009.amd.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > This is really bad stuff. One of the things I've seen with mouse > piss is that the legs of many IC's are steel cores with tin plating. Steel? Are you sure? Most of the manufacturers' datasheets I've seen say something along the lines of "Pin material: Copper with [x]um tin-lead plating"... > I've seen where the IC leg will look fiine but the entire insides > are rotted out from mouse piss. Chinchilla urine seems to do the same sort of thing - had a steel cage that was rendered unsafe in a year or so by a family of three chinchillas. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... My hat covers my head.... Just like hair used to!! From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 8 17:40:27 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <200410082208.PAA18125@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041008182805.02ebae88@192.168.0.1> At 06:08 PM 10/8/2004, you wrote: >Shake of excess water and rinse again. Dry quickly >in a warm place. I often set them in the sun but for winter >drying, an oven set to about 140-150F works well. Use >a cookie pan or piece of foil to block direct heat radiation >from the heating elements ( not a problem in convection >ovens. Also don't even think of using a microwave! ). Pretty easy for an oven to get too hot. Polystyrene caps aren't much good when heated past 185F/85C. After washing circuit boards I make (last stage is DI water from a filter setup) I shake 'em off as you say but then use a cardboard box (the type copier paper comes in) with a hole in the top for a hair blow dryer. Another hole in the side at the other side lets the air out. A thermometer in the box shows it never gets over 150F/65C Cleaning technique has worked on circuits where leakage had to be on the order of a few tens of picoamps. 1mv across 1000 MEGohm = 1pa. Ed K. From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Oct 8 17:53:32 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues References: <200410080320.i983Kn4U031315@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <000401c4ad89$ac0e9c60$0100a8c0@screamer> > On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > > > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > If it leaves the x & y in state where the drivers are turned on fully, > > the transistors get hot. > > What I meant was, if you find "Z" off (eg. nothing to be > displayed) then you can put the beam in the center of the screen > and save the transistors, within your adapter. > There is a problem with simply using the Z axis to switch the inputs to the deflection amps and center the beam. If drawing a vector starts far from the 0,0 origin, the X and Y deflection signals will be ramping up to position the beam prior to the Z axis signal unblanking the beam. So in this case the deflection amps would be presented with a very fast 'jump' while the Z axis signal had unblanked the beam. This is not a good thing. I looked at beefing up the deflection amps to allow keeping the beam at 0,0, but this is totally impractical. The power supply for the monitor is not able to supply enough power, and the deflection yolk would burn up quickly. This is a very bad thing. Fortunetly I think I have a workable plan: The HP 1350 has two signals on the AUX connector that may save my bacon. The first is an active low signal telling external equipment that the vector generator is busy. I plan on monitoring this signal to detect the end of a display update cycle. Once a display update cycle is completes, I'll activate some analog switches that will ground the X and Y axis inputs to the vector monitor, and also assert a signal that holds off vector generation until a timer expires. At that time I'll switch the HP 1350 analog vector data back to the monitor, then drop the vector generation hold signal and wait for end of display update once again. So a small microcontroller will control the refresh rate, and give the monitor plenty of time for the deflection amps to cool down between display refresh cycles. I had already thought of a simple state machine that would do something similar to the Z axis signal in case deflection power to the monitor was lost while a Z axis signal was still present. This will cause major screen burn on this type of monitor because the high voltage supply remains high for some time after power-off, but the spot-killer circuit drops out as soon as deflection power is lost. In my application the monitor is not in the same rack as the HP 1350, so a power sequence problem is quite possible. So now I think I'll move all these functiuons into a small microcontroller, and kill both problems with one solution. The only down side to this is that this approach will only work with the HP 1350, my Imlac PDS-1 does not have these external handshake signals. But thats ok, I have a new-old-stock Tektronics 611 storage tube I can use for the Imlac. Imlacs could be ordered from the factory with Tek 611's in place of the stock vector display, and its a 'period' device, unlike the WG 19V2000. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 8 18:11:54 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041008112740.05c6bbb8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041007021257.0ae32cb8@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20041008112740.05c6bbb8@pc> Message-ID: <718FB68E-197F-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 8, 2004, at 9:46 AM, John Foust wrote: >> It's good that the CueCat engineers >> managed to find work after the dot.bomb. Because, you know, that was >> such >> a good idea that it screams for reincarnation! :) >> The only problem with the Cue Cat, if you used it as intended, is that each cat had it's own serial number, and anything you scanned got reported to cue-cat-central and added to your "permanent file" (then cue-cat-central would send out the link for that code) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:54:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> from "Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter" at Oct 8, 4 01:03:17 pm Message-ID: > Speaking of which... LOL, can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? Is > my PDA salvageable? If these were 'alkaline' batteries, like Duracell, then the electrolyte, not suprisingly, is alkaline, and you need an acid to clean it up and neutralise it. Try a dilute solution of citric acid. Of course, if PCB traces are corroded/open, you'll then have to fix those. Another machine that suffeers -- baddly -- from battery corrosion is the Whitechapel MG1. There are 5 AA NiCds on the power distribution PCB, if they leak, they will corrode the connector between that PCB and the mainboard, if not the mainboard itself. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:57:44 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <16743.3159.859089.739518@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Oct 8, 4 05:53:27 pm Message-ID: > Indeed they will. LK201s will be utterly destroyed if you get them > wet, and I have found no way to disassemble them. Oh, LK201s are easy to take apart (Unclip all the keycaps, then cut off the heat-stakes on the back and take it all apart). It's getting them back together that's 'interesting' (there's not enough plastic left to re-do the heat staking). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:59:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041008215547.GD25381@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 8, 4 09:55:47 pm Message-ID: > While all of that is true, there's an additional thing going on there... > Toner has an affinity for adhering to certain materials - one is the vinyl > that 3-ring binders are clad with, the other is toner itself. > > It takes much longer for double-sided copies to stick to themselves, but > under a variety of storage conditions, it does happen. Sticking to binder > covers is much quicker, and as someone else here pointed out, ensuring there > is a blank page at the front and back goes a long way to preventing problems. Rymans (a major UK stationery shop chain) sell cardboard-cover A4 binders. I've never had photocopied/laser-printed sheets stick to those. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:37:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Vector (arcade) monitor interfacing issues In-Reply-To: from "Tom Jennings" at Oct 7, 4 11:12:28 pm Message-ID: > In 1982, when I got a super-early IBM PC (working for > Phoenix Software) the first thing I did was to burn out the > fuse in the monitor with the wrong display-type DIPswitch > setting... apparently the wrong horizontal freq makes the > monitor draw a lot of current, by some miracle the Q didn't > protect the fuse. Presumably am IBM 5151 monochrome monitor (like the one I am using right now). This thing has no horizonatal osciallator -- the horizontal drive pulses from the MDA card go straight to the horizontal driver transistor which is, as usual, transformer coupled to the horizontal output transistor. You can therefore attempt to get the thing to scan at any frequency, but the horizontal output stage won't like it. Normally the horizontal output transsitor fails... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 17:50:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <20041008114531.X79602@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 8, 4 11:47:51 am Message-ID: > In the U.S., the "closed caption" system, which is primarily for > text for hard of hearing folk, puts two bytes of ASCII into line 21 > of the VBI (vertical blanking interval). It CAN be used for other > purposes. This sounds very similar to the UK Teletext system (which is, indeed, used to provide subtitles for deaf people, along with many 'pages' of information). As I mentioned last night, this was used to distribute software for the BBC micro. Interesting thing : The page number is a 3 digit BCD number, but nowhere in the hardware are the invald BCD nybbles (1010..1111) ever prohibited. Pages with such numbers can't be selected on a normal TV, but can be decoded and displayed by a computer-controller teletext decoder. And such pagesd certainly exist... -tony From rcini at optonline.net Fri Oct 8 18:40:51 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Cromemco software question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c4ad90$3f4922b0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Tom: Thanks. I actually examined the manual a bit more closely this time and found that it included a small loader. Dunno why I missed it the first time. Bit rot no doubt... Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tom Jennings Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 2:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cromemco software question On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > Can anyone with Cromemco experience tell me what loader should be > used to load this software into a machine? I don't recall seeing anything in > the manual that revealed this secret. Have you examined the data on the tape? Hex/ascii formats are easy to decode, and binary ones are usually pretty trivial. They are almost always something dumb like: leader leader leader... flag character or sequence record type (1=data, 2=start addr, 0=stop, that sort of thing) load address (2 bytes) byte count (1, 2) data.... checksum more records... ASCII vs. binary, even, would narrow your choices. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 8 15:14:04 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041009000834.SFXK1890.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Snip > Assuming there are no power sources nearly all electronics is > water safe. LCDs I don't know about though, and things like > membrane switches, while their components are probanbly safe, > will trap water unless disassembled. > > (Most electronic assembly processes use water-soluable fluxes and > such and often get a water bath. Other things to watch for are > trimpots. But if the device is dead, what have you got to lose?) Is this what it is? Duller looking solder joints, dull dry circuit boards with few rare water marks? Well, what it is, this resoldering job is a bitch because of no protective flux remaining or oxidizing during water soluable flux removal made the plated brass gromments, component leads that stuck out of the soldered joints unsolderable without razor scraping or rubbing with scratchy eraser. I want old fashioned flux back on those TV boards and left alone. This quality of solders better and made resoldering MUCH easier down the road. Grrrr, TV tech. Cheers, Wizard From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 8 19:09:28 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C637F6E-1987-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 8, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Indeed they will. LK201s will be utterly destroyed if you get them >> wet, and I have found no way to disassemble them. > > Oh, LK201s are easy to take apart (Unclip all the keycaps, then cut off > the heat-stakes on the back and take it all apart). It's getting them > back together that's 'interesting' (there's not enough plastic left to > re-do the heat staking). > > -tony > > Could you break off what remains of the stake and replace it with a long screw, 2 washers and a nut? (is there room underneath?) From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 19:27:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041009000834.SFXK1890.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> <20041009000834.SFXK1890.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > (Most electronic assembly processes use water-soluable fluxes and > > such and often get a water bath. Other things to watch for are > > trimpots. But if the device is dead, what have you got to lose?) > > Is this what it is? Duller looking solder joints, dull dry circuit > boards with few rare water marks? I doubt it. You don't say what device you're talking about, but a lot could have happened to it since it was new. The new processes work just fine and don't cause the problems you're talking about. Sounds like it was in a corrosive environment, or maybe it was bad when new. Who knows! From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 19:32:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <7C637F6E-1987-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <7C637F6E-1987-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Oh, LK201s are easy to take apart (Unclip all the keycaps, then cut off > > the heat-stakes on the back and take it all apart). It's getting them > > back together that's 'interesting' (there's not enough plastic left to > > re-do the heat staking). > On Oct 8, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Could you break off what remains of the stake and replace it with a long > screw, 2 washers and a nut? (is there room underneath?) You could try: put the PC board back over the tops of the stakes, drill a hole where the post used to stick up, and use a tiny sheet metal screw instead. I use a pin vise for things like this. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 8 19:35:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <200410090035.RAA18201@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message <200410082218.PAA18131@clulw009.amd.com> > "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >> This is really bad stuff. One of the things I've seen with mouse >> piss is that the legs of many IC's are steel cores with tin plating. > >Steel? Are you sure? >Most of the manufacturers' datasheets I've seen say something along the lines >of "Pin material: Copper with [x]um tin-lead plating"... > >> I've seen where the IC leg will look fiine but the entire insides >> are rotted out from mouse piss. > >Chinchilla urine seems to do the same sort of thing - had a steel cage that >was rendered unsafe in a year or so by a family of three chinchillas. > >Later. Hi Phil Check for your self. Use a magnet. If it sticks, it is steel inside, if not, it is copper. At a previous company I worked at, we always trimmed the leads of IC's and passives. I would say that about 75% of the IC leads would stick to a magnet and some 20% of the passive leads would also stick. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 8 19:37:24 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [Ace-students] Re: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server (fwd) Message-ID: > From: John Foust > What an interesting engineering problem: design an audio encoding suitable > for a few dozen bytes that was pleasant-sounding to the ear, yet had a > chance to work over AM radio or telephone. It could even just be the > standardized start and end tones to bracket a snippet of audio that the > device would record and decode later. So I forwarded John's interesting idea to the ACE students (Arts Computation Engineering) here and got this reference: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2004 15:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Kent Ridenour This is one of Crista Lopes' research areas: audio modems. Check out http://www.ics.uci.edu/~lopes From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 8 19:40:24 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards Message-ID: <200410090040.RAA18207@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> It takes much longer for double-sided copies to stick to themselves, but >> under a variety of storage conditions, it does happen. Sticking to binder >> covers is much quicker, and as someone else here pointed out, ensuring there >> is a blank page at the front and back goes a long way to preventing problems. > >I have binders of xerographic copies that stick to >themselves. xerography isn't very permanent. > Hi I've found that it depends on the paper that was used and how well it was fused. Porous paper seems to work better ( non-glossy ) and lighter amounts of toner also works better than heavy amounts. Too thick a layer of toner doesn't fuse well to the paper. Dwight From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Oct 8 19:47:51 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Programmable ROM Module for the HP-85 Message-ID: <200410090047.i990lpUe015433@queen.cs.drexel.edu> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5128991233 For the people looking for an EMS ROM for the Series 80, this is the next best thing, the programmable ROM drawer allows you to install ROM images on 4K-byte 2732 or 8K 2764 EPROMs. You can get the images from www.series80.org Note, I am not the one selling this item, I am just posting this because people have been asking me about the EMS ROM. **vp From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Oct 8 20:36:31 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Programmable ROM Module for the HP-85 In-Reply-To: <200410090047.i990lpUe015433@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200410090047.i990lpUe015433@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4167409F.9010601@pacbell.net> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5128991233 > > For the people looking for an EMS ROM for the Series 80, this > is the next best thing, the programmable ROM drawer allows you to > install ROM images on 4K-byte 2732 or 8K 2764 EPROMs. > > You can get the images from www.series80.org > > Note, I am not the one selling this item, I am just posting this > because people have been asking me about the EMS ROM. Jay West is going to unsubscribe you, Vassilis -- he is one of the active bidders on the item. :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 8 20:59:44 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Programmable ROM Module for the HP-85 References: <200410090047.i990lpUe015433@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <4167409F.9010601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002801c4ada3$a62f78e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Yeah, it was a moral dilemma during moderation *GRIN* Just Kidding :> I just got outbid *sigh* Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Programmable ROM Module for the HP-85 > Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5128991233 >> >> For the people looking for an EMS ROM for the Series 80, this >> is the next best thing, the programmable ROM drawer allows you to >> install ROM images on 4K-byte 2732 or 8K 2764 EPROMs. >> >> You can get the images from www.series80.org >> >> Note, I am not the one selling this item, I am just posting this because >> people have been asking me about the EMS ROM. > > Jay West is going to unsubscribe you, Vassilis -- he is one of the active > bidders on the item. :-) > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 20:49:35 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <7C637F6E-1987-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Oct 8, 4 05:09:28 pm Message-ID: > > > On Oct 8, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Indeed they will. LK201s will be utterly destroyed if you get them > >> wet, and I have found no way to disassemble them. > > > > Oh, LK201s are easy to take apart (Unclip all the keycaps, then cut off > > the heat-stakes on the back and take it all apart). It's getting them > > back together that's 'interesting' (there's not enough plastic left to > > re-do the heat staking). > > > > -tony > > > > > Could you break off what remains of the stake and replace it with a long > screw, 2 washers and a nut? (is there room underneath?) Not easily. The top part of the keyboard consists of a set of U-shaped plastic chabeeles, the open face of which go agains the membrane sandwich, the top face of which carry the keycaps. The heat-stake pins are moulded as part of the sides of the channels. There isn't enough thickness there to drill holes and fit screws. -tony From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 8 21:24:07 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41674BC7.4010609@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Interesting thing : The page number is a 3 digit BCD number, but nowhere > in the hardware are the invald BCD nybbles (1010..1111) ever prohibited. > Pages with such numbers can't be selected on a normal TV, but can be > decoded and displayed by a computer-controller teletext decoder. And such > pagesd certainly exist... What's on them? Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 8 21:31:27 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Black Death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41674D7F.8030503@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Another machine that suffeers -- baddly -- from battery corrosion is the > Whitechapel MG1. There are 5 AA NiCds on the power distribution PCB, if > they leak, they will corrode the connector between that PCB and the > mainboard, if not the mainboard itself. Has anyone ever come across the copper in the negative lead from a nicad pack turning black and crumbly? It seems to happen from the battery outwards, and progresses up the inside of the insulation. I've seen this happen with radios, camera battery packs, "sun gun" battery packs (portable movie lights) and RC models. On a similar note, there are two nicad batteries in the instrument cluster of certain older BMWs (3- and 5-series spring to mind). After 10-15 years, the batteries start to fail, and don't hold a charge. This makes the service light start to come on all the time, although if you reset it with the plug under the bonnet it goes out until the next time you turn the ignition off. If it's not caught in time it will drop corrosive (and conductive) gunk all over the circuit board with the warning lights, giving rise to all manner of weird warning light indications. BMW will relieve you of nearly 300 quid for a new instrument cluster, or you can replace the nicads for next to nothing. Gordon. From anheier at owt.com Fri Oct 8 22:33:28 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: DEC board cleanout Message-ID: I have these DEC boards I would like to find a new home for. These appear to be in good shape, but not sure if these are in working order. I would like $30 for all the boards + shipping. 4 each: M3105 DHU11-A ASYNC MUX DMA CNTL 1 each: M7485-YA M7485 W/ BLSTD RMS 4 LYR UDA50 1 each: M7903 BOARD DATA RK06 1 each + 1 damaged: M7819 8 LN DBL BUF ASYNC EIA DZ1 Thanks Norm From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 9 02:59:25 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 2004 23:50:04 BST." Message-ID: <200410090759.IAA16169@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > Interesting thing : The page number is a 3 digit BCD number, but nowhere > in the hardware are the invald BCD nybbles (1010..1111) ever prohibited. > Pages with such numbers can't be selected on a normal TV, but can be > decoded and displayed by a computer-controller teletext decoder. And such > pagesd certainly exist... On my tv one of the Welsh channels (S4C, I think) shows page numbers like 14A 1E5 etc as it's counting when searching for a page. I've not been able to get any of the pages to display even by entering 149 and pressing "up" to see if it counts in hex :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Oct 9 04:47:21 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <200410090759.IAA16169@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200410090759.IAA16169@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041009104430.03ab9dc0@pop.freeserve.net> At 08:59 09/10/2004, Stan Barr wrote: >Hi, > >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > Interesting thing : The page number is a 3 digit BCD number, but nowhere > > in the hardware are the invald BCD nybbles (1010..1111) ever prohibited. > > Pages with such numbers can't be selected on a normal TV, but can be > > decoded and displayed by a computer-controller teletext decoder. And such > > pagesd certainly exist... > >On my tv one of the Welsh channels (S4C, I think) shows page numbers like >14A 1E5 etc as it's counting when searching for a page. I've not been able >to get any of the pages to display even by entering 149 and pressing "up" >to see if it counts in hex :-) I remember many year ago (well On topic) looking at some similarly numbered pages on CNN, (via an early analogue cable) - they turned out to be full of reams and reams of garbage. Now, CNN were at the time promoting a subscription service whereby you could get up to the minute financial information, so I presume thhis was that, encrypted. Rob From blair at averagebacon.com Sat Oct 9 09:10:57 2004 From: blair at averagebacon.com (Blair Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: FREE: Compaq Luggable w/ software Message-ID: <4167F171.6000002@averagebacon.com> Any takers? Free. Vermontville, MI (hour from Grand Rapids, 45 min. from Lansing, could also transport to Chicago area). Pictures can be found here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5127260755 Just let me know... Blair From cheri-post at web.de Sat Oct 9 10:12:53 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Onyx C8002 News: Boards pictures Message-ID: <520994149@web.de> Hi all, finally, I've had some time and a new scanner to scan in the boards. Somebody asked me to do so several months ago. There are scans of one of the two memory boards, the peripherals board and the CPU board. Problem is, that I haven't got a website to put them on. Six pictures are available, size is 500kb - 800kb. They're big, I know, but everything can be seen, including the inscriptions of the chips. If anybody wants them, I can send them via email. Better would be a place to put them online for a week or so. Maybe a kind person could help me ? It would be great if someone who owns a C8000/c8002 could check out the DIP switch settings of the boards. I'm not sure if they're ok. Remeber, my C8002 doesn't work, I'm trying to fix it. Have a nice weekend Pierre ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 9 11:36:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the > text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for > some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. I'm sure by now this has been discussed extensively but it seems to me any photocopied or laser printed page tends to stick to what is adjacent to it, which is why manuals of this type should always be stored vertically. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 9 11:37:53 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <10410082128.ZM21438@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 8 2004, 4:34, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Also to worry about: > > > > * Paper rot (paper documents that are crumbling due to acid in the > paper) > > * Bit rot (EPROMS or magnetic media that are nearing their > theoretical > > lifespan) > > I was going to mention that. > > Also electrolytic capacitors that need reformed. > > Old oil/grease in fan bearings and the like, which has turned to > varnish/wax and seized the bearings. If it hasn't been mentioned yet, rubber rollers inside tape drives, paper tape and punch card readers and punches...basically rubber rollers in anything mechanical. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 9 11:45:41 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> <1097264392.22086.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041009114415.053c76d0@pc> At 02:39 PM 10/8/2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the >text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for >some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. The vinyl continues to out-gas for many years. That "new car" smell is still there, just at lower levels. I think it melts the toner plastic. The toner also re-melts under pressure, so a pile of docs does a different kind of sticking. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 9 11:42:13 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: media what died a'bornin' In-Reply-To: <20041008114531.X79602@shell.lmi.net> References: <3229D82D-18EE-11D9-9948-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> <20041008114531.X79602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041009114100.057c0bd0@pc> At 01:47 PM 10/8/2004, Fred Cisin wrote: >In the U.S., the "closed caption" system, which is primarily for >text for hard of hearing folk, puts two bytes of ASCII into line 21 >of the VBI (vertical blanking interval). It CAN be used for other >purposes. These days, PC-based video cards decode it, too, and use it to trigger events... e.g., as soon as they mention "Hitler", record 30 minutes, or beep, etc. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 9 11:51:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041009095027.A99875@shell.lmi.net> > > > Also to worry about: > > > * Paper rot (paper documents that are crumbling due to acid in the > > paper) > > > * Bit rot (EPROMS or magnetic media that are nearing their > > theoretical > > > lifespan) > > I was going to mention that. > > Also electrolytic capacitors that need reformed. > > Old oil/grease in fan bearings and the like, which has turned to > > varnish/wax and seized the bearings. > If it hasn't been mentioned yet, rubber rollers inside tape drives, paper > tape and punch card readers and punches...basically rubber rollers in > anything mechanical. Didn't Philip K. Dick recommend Ubik ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 9 11:58:59 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041009095751.U99875@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the > > text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for > > some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. > > I'm sure by now this has been discussed extensively but it seems to me any > photocopied or laser printed page tends to stick to what is adjacent to > it, which is why manuals of this type should always be stored vertically. But there is also a chemical reaction (from outgassing of plasticizer?) that makes the toner stick to the cover of PVC binders much more than to most other substances. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 9 12:50:54 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: PDP 11/70: MK11 memory crate, M9312 cards, and wiring... Message-ID: <1097344254.23792.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Hi all, We've got an M9312 boot / terminator board in our Decsystem 570 (which has 11/70 internals). The board has four spade connection points on it - TP1 - TP4. Now, TP1 has a couple of wires connected to it, one white and one clear, and TP2 has a black wire connected to it. These appear to run up to the central pillar of the rack - I expect to the 'initialize' switch. (TP1 is boot input, with TP2 as return, whilst TP4 is enable boot with TP3 as return) TP3 and TP4 are currently unconnected. *However*, we have a crate of memory in the machine in a box labelled MK11-C2. From this there's a cable dangling out the back, with a pair of spade connectors at the end (one spade having both white and black wires running to it, the other having clear). I suspect this is supposed to plug into TP3 and TP4 on the M9312 board, but can anyone confirm this? What does the cable actually do? I'm guessing it's some sort of 'power good' type of signal back to the CPU... And whilst I'm here... We have three H775D battery modules for the machine. The back of the MK11-C2 has an 8 pin connector marked as being for such a battery unit - anyone know if the cable's a straight through between the memory crate and the battery unit? (i.e. 1-1, 2-2 etc.) I suspect the other two battery units were spares - but the MK11 also has two more unlabelled 8 pin connectors; are these important for anything? Will the memory unit be happy without any battery unit(s) plugged in? Also... :-) What do J1 and J2 do on the back of the MK11? Currently pins 1-3 on J2 are shorted via a small plug, whilst J1 has nothing connected to it. As mentioned in a previous email, the machine power supplies look good, but whilst various LED's on the CPU front panel are lit, with the key inserted we're still unable to use any front panel switches to yield any signs of life. My *guess* is that the cable hanging out of the memory crate should be plugged into the M9312, and the system isn't starting because it thinks the memory crate is upset - but I could be totally wrong on that and something else is up with the CPU... And if anyone has any answers in the next 12 hours, then great - as I can spend all day tomorrow screwing around with the machine then :-) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 9 13:52:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041009095751.U99875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Be careful with laser-printed documentation in ring binders too; the > > > text has a habit of sticking to the underside of the binder's cover for > > > some reason - stick a blank sheet of paper in there to protect it. > > > > I'm sure by now this has been discussed extensively but it seems to me any > > photocopied or laser printed page tends to stick to what is adjacent to > > it, which is why manuals of this type should always be stored vertically. > > But there is also a chemical reaction (from outgassing of plasticizer?) > that makes the toner stick to the cover of PVC binders much more than > to most other substances. I've had pages stick to other pages, but perhaps this was the print on each page sticking to the print on the other? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 9 14:06:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041009120330.S99875@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > But there is also a chemical reaction (from outgassing of plasticizer?) > > that makes the toner stick to the cover of PVC binders much more than > > to most other substances. > I've had pages stick to other pages, but perhaps this was the print on > each page sticking to the print on the other? THey will stick to each other, but nowhere near as much as they stick to the plastic binder. Look at the inside front cover of some of those beige easel binders that you got from me. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Oct 9 16:02:49 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' References: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <019101c4ae43$63155200$0200a8c0@geoff> Now , that is interesting ! I'll have to look that up. Great. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:14 AM Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' > > > It is little known (but documented) that, during WWII, radio station KHJ > in Los Angeles ( and undoubtedly many others ) sent radio-teletype signals > by shifitng the carrier a miniscule amount - I think about 10 htz, and > using a very slow baud rate. This would not be noticed by the average > equipment of the day, and would take very specialized gear to recover, > store and print > > But it allowed messages to be sent large distances by powerful > transmitters - completely 'in the blind'. > > Cheers > > John > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 08/10/04 From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Oct 9 16:27:58 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' References: <5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com><5.1.0.14.0.20041007151745.00a6cb40@pop-server.socal.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041007230716.009688b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <026f01c4ae46$da403040$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:07 AM Subject: Re: Clandestine data - was: media what died a'bornin' > I've got news for you. They still do the same type of thing. There are > hidden signals all over the sperctrum. There ARE benefits to owning a GOOD > surveillance reciever :-) > > Joe > What do you recommend ? Geoff. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 08/10/04 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 9 17:13:58 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner Message-ID: OK, either my memory is failing or it's no longer as easy to identify who owns a website. How can I go about figuring that out? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wacarder at usit.net Sat Oct 9 17:30:28 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One way is: http://www.netsol.com Once there, click on the "whois database" link. >From there, enter the domain and it will tell you the owner info. Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:14 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner > > > OK, either my memory is failing or it's no longer as easy to identify > who owns a website. How can I go about figuring that out? > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 17:33:48 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner References: Message-ID: <001801c4ae50$0bbb56a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Not necessarily. The domain may be registered under the ISP, or under the end user. In addition, as domains move around often the contact information in the whois database isn't accurate any more. Usually the best route is an email to webmaster@xxx.xxx or postmaster@xxx.xxx or www@xxx.xxx Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 5:30 PM Subject: RE: [OT] IDing a website owner > One way is: > > http://www.netsol.com > > Once there, click on the "whois database" link. > >>From there, enter the domain and it will tell you the owner info. > > Ashley > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 6:14 PM >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner >> >> >> OK, either my memory is failing or it's no longer as easy to identify >> who owns a website. How can I go about figuring that out? >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | >> > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 9 17:41:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >One way is: > >http://www.netsol.com > >Once there, click on the "whois database" link. > >>From there, enter the domain and it will tell you the owner info. > >Ashley Thanks, it was my memory at fault. I couldn't remember "whois". Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 18:15:51 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 15:13:58 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, either my memory is failing or it's no longer as easy to identify > who owns a website. How can I go about figuring that out? > Zane 1/ query the whois of the according registrar. Example : for .com : www.internic.net, for .org, www.pir.org. For countries query their NIC (Network information center), www.nic.fr for France for example. If you prefer something easier : http://www.whois-search.com/ which will automagically query the correct whois database. 2/ A web server is bound to an IP address. You can find who owns this IP by querying another set of databases. Start from the ARIN database at www.arin.net which might redirect you to some other databases (RIPE for Europe, APNIC for Asiac/Pacific, LACNIC etc.). http://www.whois-search.com/ will work in both cases. To have the name converted to IP AND the whois query at the same time : http://www.samspade.org/ Hope this helps, -- Stephane Paris, France. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 18:21:40 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:56 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware Message-ID: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I said I'd look at what is in there, here's the scoop. Boom 1U case, room for MB, PS, many fans, two HD's, slimline floppy and slimline CD, and a single PCI card ASUS TUSI-M motherboard Intel Celeron 1.2ghz, 256K cache, 100mhz FSB (2) 512mb low profile SDR DIMMS Mitsumi SR243T1 slim cd Citizen OSDA-39D floppy drive (heavily modified with a dremel tool to fit right) 20gb PATA drive for OS 160gb PATA drive for data, list, websites, etc. The motherboard ide controller is ATA100 or 133, I forget which. Before you snivel at the hardware... the classiccmp server doesn't NEED to be extremely fast and seems to do just fine with the horsepower it has. Of course that's because it runs FreeBSD (trolling). The end-goal here is reliability in case of drive failure. I see two options. I could get an additional 160HD, a Promise raid 1 card, and a riser card (think I already have one). Then the OS & data would be on one 160gb drive and we'd mirror to the other 160gb. This is the cheapest option. The other option would be using a motherboard with built-in raid. This would involve replacing the motherboard, the memory, and the cpu. Perhaps the power supply too, which may or may not mean a new case.... I would still need to buy another 160gb drive. Definitely a lot more expensive. Plus since it's an older 1U case, trying to find a motherboard that fit it just right may be troublesome with boards being sent back cause they dont fit, etc. Plus the frustration of trying to make sure the newer/faster processor heatsink and fan would fit into the 1U case, which can sometimes be impossible. In the event that the server runs out of horsepower, if we go the first route, we wouldn't have lost any investment cause we'd still be able to use the two 160gb PATA drives. The only money wasted would be on the promise RAID controller. So, my vote would be to go with another 160gb, riser card, and promise raid 1 card. But I'm open to any and all options. Theres about $200 or so in the kitty right now for the server. I'd love some input, mayber there's options I haven't thought of. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 18:24:56 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner References: Message-ID: <001901c4ae57$311d0630$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > 2/ A web server is bound to an IP address. You can find who owns this > IP by querying another set of databases. Start from the ARIN database > at www.arin.net which might redirect you to some other databases (RIPE > for Europe, APNIC for Asiac/Pacific, LACNIC etc.). Just remember.... getting the IP space owner does NOT get you to the person (or even the company) responsible for the site. Since IP space is relatively gold these days, few people own their own IPspace (minimum cost is $2500/year). Instead, an ISP will delegate a netblock to a lower ISP, etc. etc. So oftentimes when you find who owns the IP block in question, you are actually several hops at least above the person responsible for the server on that address. Believe me... I can't count the number of times I've gotten a nastygram from a user complaining about a server that is three companies below me. Jay West From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 9 20:50:13 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, either my memory is failing or it's no longer as easy to identify who owns > a website. How can I go about figuring that out? Well there's subtleties, but a combination of WHOIS and DIG (or crap-ass nslookup). The problem is 'virtual domains' -- eg. www.fsdfsfdsdfsdfsdfsdf.com is just some user page on BIGPROVIDER.COM there's no unified way to tell, but you can usually figure out who's hosting them. If a host has a DNS "A" record, then it's a physical machine, and whois will tell you something. If you don't have a .*n[u,i]x OS there are websites that do whois and dns lookups. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 21:02:56 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: some DEC person is going to want this :) Message-ID: <003701c4ae6d$431674f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I was contacted with the following email text: "For Sale - Wall poster, size 22" x 28", good condition. Shown in chrome frame, I will keep the frame, roll the poster up and mail it in a tube (at my cost) for $20." And the poster can be viewed at http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/dec-poster.jpg Contact me off-list if interested. Very nice :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 21:42:21 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: some DEC person is going to want this :) References: <003701c4ae6d$431674f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <007c01c4ae72$c48f0ab0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The poster has been claimed. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 9 21:58:29 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP posters wanted Message-ID: <009001c4ae75$05a3e410$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> That poster got me thinking.... anyone have any HP 21MX or 21XX type marketing posters? I just realized I don't have anything like that in my collection, and would certainly love to. Anyone have any duplicates to trade? Thanks! Jay From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 9 11:50:04 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: [Ace-students] Re: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041009114637.03783ed0@pc> At 07:37 PM 10/8/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >So I forwarded John's interesting idea to the ACE students >(Arts Computation Engineering) here and got this reference: >This is one of Crista Lopes' research areas: audio modems. Check out >http://www.ics.uci.edu/~lopes Ah, another fine example of the most humbling aspect of my life in the last decade or so: that there's nothing new under the sun, that all those fresh-faced ideas I have before breakfast are already being explored by talented and well-funded researchers, or implemented by hard-working Czechs who want to give it away, or worse yet, productized in the USA in foolish ways (ala CueCat.) I think that the average person's ear is already tuning-out such beeps and boops. Some of her examples on her web page sound like the bumpers on radio and television shows. It must be fun to do what she's doing: there could be so many perceptual and aesthetic issues to explore, like making audio modem sounds that sound pleasant because they obey culturally popular music conventions (encode 400 bits in jazz, 400 bits in pop, 400 bits in Muzak, inversion, cycles, etc.) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 9 12:14:49 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041009095027.A99875@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041009095027.A99875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041009121413.0377cde8@pc> >> If it hasn't been mentioned yet, rubber rollers inside tape drives, paper >> tape and punch card readers and punches...basically rubber rollers in >> anything mechanical. No one's mentioned ozone in particular as a potent destroyer... - John From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Oct 9 23:02:29 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP posters hp keys and a nice ta-da! References: <009001c4ae75$05a3e410$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000d01c4ae7d$f5f86be0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> if there are triplicates we are happy to buy on also. on the hp 2000 keys, just found a ring of hp keys... they are the round ones... I don't think they fit anything except the 2100 do they jay? I will test fit them in he processor Tuesday. now for the grand ta da.... ran across a small stash of hp 2000a timeshare system name tags. they were off some systems that had been owned by Computer resources services (CRS) here in Arizona. Eons ago ended up with the plexifront cabinets from these systems really weird had not seen these in 15 years... and yet... here they are now. check www.smecc.org/hewlett_packard.htm to see an image of one of these... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:58 PM Subject: HP posters wanted > That poster got me thinking.... anyone have any HP 21MX or 21XX type > marketing posters? I just realized I don't have anything like that in my > collection, and would certainly love to. Anyone have any duplicates to > trade? > > Thanks! > > Jay > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Oct 9 23:07:21 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: References: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <200410100410.AAA06915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM >> mainframes) that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. The VAX has packed decimal arithmetic instructions. Depending on which VAX, they may be microcoded or they may just trap to the OS for "macrocoded" emulation (of course the OS may choose to error out instead of bothering). I don't know of any VAX that does them in non-microcoded hardware, and am inclined to doubt such a beast exists. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 9 23:33:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041009120330.S99875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > But there is also a chemical reaction (from outgassing of plasticizer?) > > > that makes the toner stick to the cover of PVC binders much more than > > > to most other substances. > > I've had pages stick to other pages, but perhaps this was the print on > > each page sticking to the print on the other? > > THey will stick to each other, but nowhere near as much as they stick to > the plastic binder. Look at the inside front cover of some of those beige > easel binders that you got from me. Oh, I know this. I've got plenty of manuals that are a-stickin' to their binder covers since they haven't been stored properly (currently being remedied with the latest block of shelving going up). I just wanted to let everyone know that pages also can stick to each other, and so therefore you should want to store your manuals vertically. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Oct 9 23:36:55 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Thoughts -> Re: classiccmp server In-Reply-To: References: <00aa01c4aa18$76f4aca0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041004145658.1335ff50@pc> Message-ID: <200410100440.AAA07410@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For classicmp, how about off-machine rsync copies? > Even a simplistic 2nd internal drive and a cron rsync drive 1 to > drive 2 gets you a lot of results for little effort. Some time ago, I wrote support for what I've taken to calling "live backup": basically, everything written to the disk is mirrored over the net to a backup copy somewhere else. (In my case, on another of my house machines, on a drive which holds nothing but those backup copies. But the software is designed for use over long-haul links, and I've had my laptop mirror itself to the backup space at home over others' netlinks when traveling.) Works a treat for defending against disks dying (which I have had happen about twice since I started using it routinely; in each case, the backup did exactly what it was supposed to, ensuring all the bits were safe). I could volunteer some space. How much disk space is involved? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Oct 9 23:49:42 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards References: Message-ID: <004101c4ae84$8ef14870$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> some Xeroxed stuff really can stick when stored in the Arizona summer in a storage shed... we got a gift of some recently.... ughghhh! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Storage Hazards > On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > > But there is also a chemical reaction (from outgassing of >> > > plasticizer?) >> > > that makes the toner stick to the cover of PVC binders much more than >> > > to most other substances. >> > I've had pages stick to other pages, but perhaps this was the print on >> > each page sticking to the print on the other? >> >> THey will stick to each other, but nowhere near as much as they stick to >> the plastic binder. Look at the inside front cover of some of those >> beige >> easel binders that you got from me. > > Oh, I know this. I've got plenty of manuals that are a-stickin' to their > binder covers since they haven't been stored properly (currently being > remedied with the latest block of shelving going up). I just wanted to > let everyone know that pages also can stick to each other, and so > therefore you should want to store your manuals vertically. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 9 23:50:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041009121413.0377cde8@pc> References: <20041009095027.A99875@shell.lmi.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041009121413.0377cde8@pc> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > No one's mentioned ozone in particular as a potent destroyer... Because it's too depressing. Actually, the absolute worst danger in preserving old stuff is real estate prices, not including plain old human nature of course. From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 10 00:02:18 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: <200410100410.AAA06915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1095939620.5066.4.camel@localhost> <200410100410.AAA06915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >> I've always wondered what systems/processors (other than IBM > >> mainframes) that had hardware decimal arithmetic support. > > The VAX has packed decimal arithmetic instructions. Depending on which > VAX, they may be microcoded or they may just trap to the OS for > "macrocoded" emulation (of course the OS may choose to error out > instead of bothering). The lowly 8080 had DAA, Decimal Adjust for Addition. If I recall, it handled "carry" from bit5 (and Cy?) after adding a BCD pair in A. Man, I wrote a lot of 8080 code, so much I still remember opcodes and could puzzle out binary 20 years later, but it's possible I never once used DAA. Hell, I used MOV A, A even. (An inline pseudo-disassembler; a config file could specify the IO port a tape drive interface was located and the program modified itself to change all the port numbers for IN and OUT. IO instructions following MOV A, A were modified.) From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 00:29:40 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP-3000 "Guide for new System Operators" 1986 manual In-Reply-To: <000401c4a514$f59fb530$6400a8c0@jtarlerlap> Message-ID: <20041010052940.95113.qmail@web40908.mail.yahoo.com> Ha! you thought I had forgotten about you! Well, I did. You get the book - only two people responded, I picked the one who came first on the alphabet. I will mail it next week. Congratulations! Please send $4,995.00 to cover shipping and handling. Steve. P.S. That was an estimate, I will get the actual amount when I send it. --- jtarler wrote: > Steve, > > Believe it or not, I'm actually interested in this > manual. I work with > HP3000 computers from time to time at my job > (computer disaster recovery) > and might find some useful tips and information in > it. Here's my address: > > Jay Tarler > 411 W Stafford St > Philadlephia PA 19144 > > Phone: 215-842-1623 > > If no one else responds, please send it. If they > do, then I suggest you > toss a coin, ask us to pick a number, or some other > hi-tech lottery > solution. Thanks. > > Jay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steven" > To: "cc" > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:29 PM > Subject: HP-3000 "Guide for new System Operators" > 1986 manual - free > > > > I have a thick manual entitled - > > "HP-3000 Guide for new System Operators" dated > 1986. > > I don't want it, do you? > > Free for shipping from So Cal 92656. > > > > First come first served? No, I hate that. > > Everyone who responds in the next 7 days will have > a > > fair chance, unless you want to start throwing > money > > at me. > > > > I'm making a big assumption that someone may > actually > > want it... > > > > Steve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 10 00:36:19 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Plato In-Reply-To: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [T]here's an emulated Cyber running PLATO online now at > http://www.cyber1.org ...which unfortunately is, effectively, restricted to people in or near California, or who are willing to ignore the user agreement (section 6 of the agreement is totally insane for anyone for whom California would be inconvenient). Pity. It'd be nice to have PLATO back again; I have fond memories of using it in the late '70s. Oh well. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 10 01:00:32 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Onyx C8002 News: Boards pictures In-Reply-To: <520994149@web.de> References: <520994149@web.de> Message-ID: <200410100601.CAA08154@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > finally, I've had some time and a new scanner to scan in the boards. > Somebody asked me to do so several months ago. > Problem is, that I haven't got a website to put them on. > Six pictures are available, size is 500kb - 800kb. > Better would be a place to put them online for a week or so. Maybe a > kind person could help me ? I don't run a webserver, but if an FTP server is an acceptable substitute, I can host them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 10 01:12:16 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: [OT] IDing a website owner In-Reply-To: <001901c4ae57$311d0630$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001901c4ae57$311d0630$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200410100613.CAA08209@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So oftentimes when you find who owns the IP block in question, you > are actually several hops at least above the person responsible for > the server on that address. If they don't SWIP the subassignment, they have to take responsibility for it, is my view. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Oct 10 03:09:09 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Decimal V Binary?? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Oct 2004 22:02:18 PDT." Message-ID: <200410100809.JAA29746@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tom Jennings said: > > The lowly 8080 had DAA, Decimal Adjust for Addition. If I recall, > it handled "carry" from bit5 (and Cy?) after adding a BCD pair > in A. The even lowlier SC/MP had DAD (Decimal Add), DAI (Decimal Add Immediate) and DAE (Decimal Add Extension) instructions. They all add 2-digit (8-bit) decimal numbers. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 10 05:46:47 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK Message-ID: <10410101146.ZM23375@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Off-topic because it's not a classic computer (it's a pice of microscopy equipment)... I have the prospect of buying something very cheaply in the States, but which would be expensive here in the UK. Unfortunately, it weighs too much for normal UPS -- about 80lb. FedEx want over $300 to ship it. Can anyone think of a better way? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 10 06:02:54 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: shipping from USA to UK References: <10410101146.ZM23375@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4aeb8$b2089960$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Pete Turnbull" > > I have the prospect of buying something very cheaply in the States, but > which would be expensive here in the UK. Unfortunately, it weighs too > much for normal UPS -- about 80lb. FedEx want over $300 to ship it. You can talk to just about any international shipper, like Transgroup, www.transgroup.com The difference between UPS etc. and Transgroup and the likes, is that Transgroup (and many others) consolidate shipments. This means, that they throw everything in containes, and _then_ ship the filled container. I've had some shipments from the US, and a rule of thumb is that consolidated shipments are about 1/3 of the "full service" price. You must however accept a slower service, for good reasons. A week transit time from the US to the UK can be expected. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 07-10-2004 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 10 04:03:11 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 18:21:40 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: > So, my vote would be to go with another 160gb, riser card, and promise > raid 1 card. Those Promise "RAID" cards don't do hardware RAID. They handle RAID entirely in software, by there own BIOS for booting / DOS and via a proprietary drivers for the OS. Stay away from this. (IIRC NetBSD has a driver for this crap that recognizes the Promise RAID layout and uses it as a RAIDframe software RAID volume or the like.) As you are running FreeBSD: What about vinum(4)??? The machine should be fast enough to handle RAID1 in software. No problem with the Promise BIOS stuff, no cost for an extra PCI card. If you want real hardware RAID look for a 3ware card. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 10 08:33:19 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jochen wrote... > Those Promise "RAID" cards don't do hardware RAID. They handle RAID > entirely in software, by there own BIOS for booting / DOS and via a I don't *THINK* that is true, at least as a generalization. There may be some low end cards from promise that don't really do hardware raid, and there may be promise chips built into some motherboards that don't really do hardware raid, but - my experience is that most of their ata raid cards actually do hardware raid. Can someone clarify for sure? > As you are running FreeBSD: What about vinum(4)??? > The machine should be fast enough to handle RAID1 in software. No > problem with the Promise BIOS stuff, no cost for an extra PCI card. I won't do OS-land raid. Doing any raid level in the OS is simply... brain dead. For the same reasons that I refuse to use a WINmodem in a windows machine. It's inherently bad engineering to waste/degrade the main systems cpu for this kind of thing. > If you want real hardware RAID look for a 3ware card. I'll look at 3ware, but like I said I was under the impression many (most) promise cards did do real hardware raid. Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 10 12:47:25 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <416975AD.2010906@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Jochen wrote... > >> Those Promise "RAID" cards don't do hardware RAID. They handle RAID >> entirely in software, by there own BIOS for booting / DOS and via a > > I don't *THINK* that is true, at least as a generalization. There may be > some low end cards from promise that don't really do hardware raid, and > there may be promise chips built into some motherboards that don't > really do hardware raid, but - my experience is that most of their ata > raid cards actually do hardware raid. Can someone clarify for sure? I haven't seen any Promise chip that does hardware RAID. I have a simple rule of thumb - if I define a LUN in the RAID BIOS and my OS sees the physical member disks, it ain't RAID. All the Promise models we've tested or I've heard feedback on do exactly what Jochen says. >> As you are running FreeBSD: What about vinum(4)??? >> The machine should be fast enough to handle RAID1 in software. No >> problem with the Promise BIOS stuff, no cost for an extra PCI card. > > I won't do OS-land raid. Doing any raid level in the OS is simply... > brain dead. For the same reasons that I refuse to use a WINmodem in a > windows machine. It's inherently bad engineering to waste/degrade the > main systems cpu for this kind of thing. I would agree with you if the server was a SPARCstation5 or something. As you said yourself, we've got cycles to burn here. Actually, I *did* agree with you for a long time, for almost exactly the same reasons, but was coerced - I like my job and the client's always King - into using Linux software RAID1 a couple of years ago. The last time I logged into that box it had over 600 days uptime, and we have several production machines of our own running RAID1 in software. >> If you want real hardware RAID look for a 3ware card. > > I'll look at 3ware, but like I said I was under the impression many > (most) promise cards did do real hardware raid. Promise says they do, and proves it by the fact that there's a RAID BIOS setup. They lie, pure and simple. Doc From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 10 13:28:45 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002801c4aef6$fb04cc40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > 1.2ghz, (2) 512mb, 20gb, 160gb Curious. This is an Email service of about 400K/day, or 6 years/Gig. A relatively puny load for such a server. Why such a need then? John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 10 13:29:49 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <416975AD.2010906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > I haven't seen any Promise chip that does hardware RAID. I have a > simple rule of thumb - if I define a LUN in the RAID BIOS and my OS sees > the physical member disks, it ain't RAID. All the Promise models we've > tested or I've heard feedback on do exactly what Jochen says. Interesting. I haven't used a promise card in a long time... but I thought I recalled the OS (FreeBSD) only seeing the logical drives, not the physical ones. I could well be wrong. Looks like 3ware two drive raid 0,1 controllers can be had for $115. Add to that a $60 some odd cost for another 160gb drive, and we should be cool. > I would agree with you if the server was a SPARCstation5 or something. > As you said yourself, we've got cycles to burn here. Just because you CAN do a thing, doesn't mean you should. I view cpu cycles as precious and not to be used frivolously even when available in good supply. Perhaps it dates back to my mentality of pouring over machine code to save a cycle here and there :) > The last time I logged into that box it had over 600 days uptime, and we > have several production machines of our own running RAID1 in software. I wasn't saying it wasn't reliable, just not the best use of the main cpu. I'd also lay odds that it isn't as fast. Thanks for the input Doc!! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 10 13:50:34 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <002801c4aef6$fb04cc40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001701c4aefa$06e8e5c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Curious. > This is an Email service of about > 400K/day, or 6 years/Gig. A relatively puny > load for such a server. Why such a need then? I'm confused.... are you referring to the cpu, or disk space? First, mailman does take a decent chunk of cpu power, mostly due to the process of automatically maintaining the archives. Any mailing process is also rather disk intensive, as sendmail can be set to queue all mail first before delivery. One doesn't have to set sendmail up this way, but doing so allows other optimizations to be done such as grouping mails to the same target domain, etc. Then remember that the classiccmp server does a lot more than just handle the mailing list. There's quite a large amount of mirrored data (bitsavers for example), and some 25 or so classic computer related websites, many of which are non-trivial. MySQL is also present, as is PHP. Jay From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Oct 10 13:51:49 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP table cloth!!!!! Message-ID: <002501c4aefa$33830ca0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> found the giant HP table Cloth.... now have to go though the crate of HP software that turned up. think it may be mainly 110.150/vectra. more later.... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From kth at srv.net Sun Oct 10 14:16:08 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: References: <7C637F6E-1987-11D9-90D5-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41698A78.4050108@srv.net> Tom Jennings wrote: >On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >>>Oh, LK201s are easy to take apart (Unclip all the keycaps, then cut off >>>the heat-stakes on the back and take it all apart). It's getting them >>>back together that's 'interesting' (there's not enough plastic left to >>>re-do the heat staking). >>> >>> > > > >>On Oct 8, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > > > >>Could you break off what remains of the stake and replace it with a long >>screw, 2 washers and a nut? (is there room underneath?) >> >> > >You could try: put the PC board back over the tops of the stakes, >drill a hole where the post used to stick up, and use a tiny >sheet metal screw instead. I use a pin vise for things like this. > > This works with some plastics, with differing levels of success: Take a piece of plastic (like off the parts tree of a plastic model), and stick it in a drill chuck. Spin it at a decent rate (trial and error), and press it against the plastic. Friction will melt them together. From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 10 14:19:31 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <416975AD.2010906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041010150422.047726c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >It was written.... > >> I would agree with you if the server was a SPARCstation5 or something. >> As you said yourself, we've got cycles to burn here. >Just because you CAN do a thing, doesn't mean you should. Yea, but if you don't get caught, it ain't illegal, right??? ;-) > I view cpu cycles as precious and not to be used frivolously even when > available in good supply. Perhaps it dates back to my mentality of > pouring over machine code to save a cycle here and there :) I understand that mentality as well, but most times, CPU's sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the HDs (especially IDE) anyway... If you can whiz away a few cycles to keep the CPUs *busier*, everything speeds up. >I wasn't saying it wasn't reliable, just not the best use of the main cpu. >I'd also lay odds that it isn't as fast. As fast as what? Hardware raid? Of course. The last time I had a striped software raid setup (2 4.3G IBM UltraStar 7200rpm SCSI drives on a Diamond MultiMedia Fireport 40 (symbios chipset wide card) I gained ~75% thruput compared to a single drive. Sure, maybe I could have gotten 85-90% out of a hardware SCSI raid card, but I didn't have the $300 to drop for that... And the system still *got faster* because the CPUs weren't in IO-wait nearly as often. It all depends on the application, just like any other benchmark; and it all depends on where your bottleneck(s) is(are). If IO-wait is minimal, and the CPUs are taxed (or you can foresee that they would be in the near future) then I wholeheartedly agree with you. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Oct 10 14:21:20 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP table cloth!!!!! the software.... References: <002501c4aefa$33830ca0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <004001c4aefe$53102630$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> here is some of the software so far... found my HP-01 watch calculator manual ( why was it in this box?) weird there is apple II software here never had one in the old days but am looking for one for the museum so... that is good! HP series 100 contributed library a few discs. HP lotus 123 system disc. HP 120/125 operating system discs. ( cpm) HP demo discs for demoing various plotters and printers from a pc HP demo discs for demoing hp peripherals on apple II's set of hp news network communications package.... this is an interesting piece of history. it was for keeping the HP Pc dealers connected with hp in the pre- internet era. a bunch of discs that I can barely read the writing on... must have been in a hurry when wring the labels! ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 11:51 AM Subject: HP table cloth!!!!! found the giant HP table Cloth.... now have to go though the crate of HP software that turned up. think it may be mainly 110.150/vectra. more later.... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 10 14:47:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK In-Reply-To: <10410101146.ZM23375@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Off-topic because it's not a classic computer (it's a pice of > microscopy equipment)... > > I have the prospect of buying something very cheaply in the States, but > which would be expensive here in the UK. Unfortunately, it weighs too > much for normal UPS -- about 80lb. FedEx want over $300 to ship it. > Can anyone think of a better way? I highly recommend Menlo Worldwide Forwarding: http://www.menloworldwide.com They can even handle the packing of the item if you wish. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 10 14:47:55 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: WANTED ($$$): DEC MXV11-BF (M7195) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All, The MXV11-BF has been taken care of, thanks one of our more evil list members. Ohno, wait, not evil.. well, to some ;) Thanks Ed! :) Now, I'm back to porting Ultrix-11 to the PRO... (yes, it works already...) --f From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:01:04 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: PDP 11/70: MK11 memory crate, M9312 cards, and wiring... In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <1097438464.25097.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-10-09 at 22:47 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > I checked the wiring in my 11/70. > On this M9312, TP1 and TP2 are connected to a small push button which is > mounted on the bottom end of the front panel. Certainly not original, > but that is how I got this 11/70. > >From the MK11 MOS memory box above the 11/70 is indeed a small cable > that connects to the M9312. This cable enters the 11/70 at the rear side > and runs, over all the boards in the space where all the flat cables are, > to the M9312. The white/black goes on TP3, and the blank one goes on TP4. Thanks - just what I needed! :-) > For its function, check the 11/70 manual :-) Heh - I was staring at DEC engineering drawings for hours and it was giving me a headache! I need to look at all the info for the memory crate though as the CPU still isn't happy (the run lamp's permanently on and we can't halt the CPU or toggle any data in from the front panel). All cards look to be OK in the CPU though, but I suspect there may be a problem with the memory... > I do not use the battery for MOS memory backup in case of a power failure > so I can not be of much help here. No problem - we're not intending on using it either; I just wanted to check that it should be OK without it. Time to do some reading this week! We did discover the limit of the power cabling in the museum room though - with the 11/34, 11/44, HP T500 and a few assorted terminals running we hit the 30A limit on the breaker and blew the power out to the room :-) Luckily we've found a few power outlets that are on a different breaker, so we can move some big stuff over onto that and spread the load. Still, adding the Marconi machine, Elliott 803 and the Decsystem 570 with the three massbus drives into the mix is going to make things interesting. The startup sequence for everything is going to be pretty critical... cheers Jules From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Oct 10 15:21:36 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: HP table cloth!!!!! the software....correction References: <002501c4aefa$33830ca0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> <004001c4aefe$53102630$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <005101c4af06$be462870$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> this should have been apple III does anyone have an extra apple III? weird there is apple II software here never had one in the old days but am looking for one for the museum so... that is good! ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 12:21 PM Subject: Re: HP table cloth!!!!! the software.... > here is some of the software so far... > > found my HP-01 watch calculator manual ( why was it in this box?) > > weird there is apple II software here never had one in the old days but > am looking for one for the museum so... that is good! > > HP series 100 contributed library a few discs. > HP lotus 123 system disc. > > HP 120/125 operating system discs. ( cpm) > > HP demo discs for demoing various plotters and printers from a pc > > HP demo discs for demoing hp peripherals on apple II's > > > set of hp news network communications package.... this is an interesting > piece of history. it was for keeping the HP Pc dealers connected with hp > in the pre- internet era. > > > a bunch of discs that I can barely read the writing on... must have been > in a hurry when wring the labels! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ed sharpe" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 11:51 AM > Subject: HP table cloth!!!!! > > > found the giant HP table Cloth.... > now have to go though the crate of HP software that turned up. think it > may be mainly 110.150/vectra. > > more later.... > Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > > Please check our web site at > http://www.smecc.org > to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we > buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. > > address: > > coury house / smecc > 5802 w palmaire ave > glendale az 85301 > > > > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 10 15:27:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: OT: shipping from USA to UK" (Oct 10, 12:47) References: Message-ID: <10410102127.ZM23727@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10 2004, 12:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > Can anyone think of a better way? > > I highly recommend Menlo Worldwide Forwarding: Ah, interesting. Thanks, Sellam -- they have a branch at Leeds/Bradford, which is our local airport. Thanks to Nico, too. I've also contacted Transgroup. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Oct 10 15:25:44 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK In-Reply-To: References: <10410101146.ZM23375@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041010162534.03330850@192.168.0.1> At 03:47 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote: >I highly recommend Menlo Worldwide Forwarding: > >http://www.menloworldwide.com > >They can even handle the packing of the item if you wish. Just been acquired by UPS. Ed K. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sun Oct 10 16:55:40 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C0A@mail.catcorner.org> Scored this from the local "cleanup week", sans monitor, keyboard and mouse. Has the DayStar Digital 100 MHz PPC upgrade board installed. Now, what do I do with it? I have a keyboard and mouse on the way. I have plenty of "standard" PC VGA monitors. Will these probably work? What OS would suit this machine the "best". I am primarily a Xenix/Linux/Solaris man, with a smattering of Microsoft products. Which OS will be the most "usefull" I know the machine has at least 48 Meg of RAM. Not sure exactly until I get it connected to a monitor. What are the Pros and Cons of each OS? Thanks for any suggestions, Kelly From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 10 17:34:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041010162534.03330850@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 03:47 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote: > >I highly recommend Menlo Worldwide Forwarding: > > > >http://www.menloworldwide.com > > > >They can even handle the packing of the item if you wish. > > Just been acquired by UPS. Another good thing ruined yet again by corporate greed. Oh well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kcampbell at idokorro.com Sun Oct 10 17:39:41 2004 From: kcampbell at idokorro.com (Ken Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: LF: DEC VAX 4000/xxx Message-ID: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> Greets all, I?m looking to acquire my first VAX system. I?m a youngin? who?s been cutting his teeth on OpenVMS through HP?s TestDrive program, and would like to have a box of my own. I?d really like to track down a VAX 4000 unit, preferably a /300 or higher. I?m not too picky about internals, I just need something to get started on (hardware collecting wise). I?m located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, so I?d be looking for a unit located in Eastern USA or Eastern Canada (yes, I know shipping a BA440 will cost me a bit) and someone willing to bubblewrap it :) If I?m being insane, hoping to have a 120lbs unit shipped, let me know.. Should I be just looking for the cards / drives separately, and try to find the case locally instead? Thanks, Ken Campbell kcampbell at HYPERLINK "mailto:kcampbell@idokorro.com"idokorro.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 10 18:23:17 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: LF: DEC VAX 4000/xxx In-Reply-To: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> References: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> Message-ID: <4169C465.2030208@ecubics.com> Ken Campbell wrote: > Greets all, > > > > I?m looking to acquire my first VAX system. I?m a youngin? who?s been cutting his teeth on OpenVMS through HP?s TestDrive program, and would like to have a box of my own. > I?d really like to track down a VAX 4000 unit, preferably a /300 or higher. I?m not too picky about internals, I just need something to get started on (hardware collecting wise). Why a 4000/300 ? They are heavy, power hungry, not exactly fast, ... Try to get a 4000/90 or 4000/60. much cheaper, SCSI drives, graphics, ... From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 10 20:59:15 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: LF: DEC VAX 4000/xxx In-Reply-To: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> References: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> Message-ID: <20041011015915.GA2364@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 10, 2004 at 06:39:41PM -0400, Ken Campbell wrote: > > I?m looking to acquire my first VAX system. I?m a youngin? who?s been > cutting his teeth on OpenVMS through HP?s TestDrive program, and would > like to have a box of my own. A good aspiration. > I?d really like to track down a VAX 4000 unit, preferably a /300 or higher. > I?m not too picky about internals, I just need something to get started on > (hardware collecting wise). I'm not well versed in variations in the 4000 series, but as long as you get something with native SCSI, you should be OK. > If I?m being insane, hoping to have a 120lbs unit shipped, let me know.. > Should I be just looking for the cards / drives separately, and try to > find the case locally instead? I would think that finding an entire system would be easier than trying to locate the boards a few at a time. But having said that, don't turn anything down. That's the best way to get a system (and spares). I personally wouldn't mind a newer Qbus box, but I have enough toys that I am going to stick with local/driving-distance rescues, not shipping. My main VAXen are an 8200/8300 (depending on if I install both CPUs or not), and a uVAX-II in a BA23 (originally purchased new as a uVAX-I and upgraded for $20K by its original owner, a former employer of mine). I have some Unibus hardware in storage, but I don't run those on a regular basis. I suppose that if I had a Unibus SCSI card, I might. Speaking of which, uVAX-IIs aren't that hard to find, but they have a hard 16MB memory limit, and, as shipped, depend on (small by today's standards) MFM drives. SCSI is an option, but you might as well grab a newer system with integrated SCSI, like a uVAX 3100 or the like, if VAX binary compatibility is the overall goal (as opposed to wanting to run obscure Qbus peripherals like a COMBOARD). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Oct-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -51.2 F (-46.2 C) Windchill -90.3 F (-68 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.7 kts Grid 012 Barometer 686.2 mb (10392. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 10 21:26:55 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04D90B7D-1B2D-11D9-A41D-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 10, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 10 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >> At 03:47 PM 10/10/2004, you wrote: >>> I highly recommend Menlo Worldwide Forwarding: >>> >>> http://www.menloworldwide.com >>> >>> They can even handle the packing of the item if you wish. >> >> Just been acquired by UPS. > > Another good thing ruined yet again by corporate greed. Oh well. Would you trust your important package to a company known as "oops" :^) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 21:29:07 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: Intel Paragon on ebay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1486&item=5725108402 one card is sold separatly : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11175&item=3844908613 The actual high bidder will resale the chips only :( -- Stephane Paris, France. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 10 21:34:54 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:57 2005 Subject: LF: DEC VAX 4000/xxx In-Reply-To: <4169C465.2030208@ecubics.com> References: <0503561D34C63045B07F04E5B3B2BFDCBFE598@FRED.planetfred.internal> <4169C465.2030208@ecubics.com> Message-ID: >>I'm looking to acquire my first VAX system. I'm a youngin' who's >>been cutting his teeth on OpenVMS through HP's TestDrive program, >>and would like to have a box of my own. >>I'd really like to track down a VAX 4000 unit, preferably a /300 or >>higher. I'm not too picky about internals, I just need something to >>get started on (hardware collecting wise). > >Why a 4000/300 ? They are heavy, power hungry, not exactly fast, ... >Try to get a 4000/90 or 4000/60. much cheaper, SCSI drives, graphics, ... If learning OpenVMS, rather than having a specific interest in VAXen, one of the cheaper Alpha's would make far more sense, and be easier to keep running. If interested in VAXen for some reason as mentioned the 4000/60, or 4000/90 make far more sense. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 10 22:26:27 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><002801c4aef6$fb04cc40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <001701c4aefa$06e8e5c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009c01c4af42$18b78840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I'm confused.... are you referring to the cpu, or disk space? Both. Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm on your side now. ;} John A. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Oct 10 23:07:15 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Emulex TC12 controller Message-ID: <1097467635.9059.17.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Hi, I'm looking for information on the Emulex TC12 (I'm assuming) tape unibus controller. I have two Kennedy 9300 drives that I'd like to hook up and I have an Emulex TC12. I also have an AVIV board (hex height with 2 50 pin connectors on the top) that I have no other information on. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Oct 10 23:26:30 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: HP paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <009c01c4af42$18b78840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=462174&convertTo=USD Also there are now 17 HP1000's Peter Wallace From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 10 23:49:08 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <416975AD.2010906@mdrconsult.com> <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200410102349.08735.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jay West declared on Sunday 10 October 2004 01:29 pm: > It was written.... > > I would agree with you if the server was a SPARCstation5 or > > something. As you said yourself, we've got cycles to burn here. > > Just because you CAN do a thing, doesn't mean you should. I view cpu > cycles as precious and not to be used frivolously even when available > in good supply. Perhaps it dates back to my mentality of pouring over > machine code to save a cycle here and there :) > > > The last time I logged into that box it had over 600 days uptime, > > and we have several production machines of our own running RAID1 in > > software. > > I wasn't saying it wasn't reliable, just not the best use of the main > cpu. I'd also lay odds that it isn't as fast. As well, I've played quite a bit with software RAID, and have used Linux's software raid 5 at work on production Compaq quad Pentium Pro boxes, on a Sun E3000, and various other things including some 533MHz Alpha machines with Qlogic FC cards and FC JBODs. I've never noticed a bit hit in CPU performance when using software raid. In every case, I was able to max out the I/O channel performance when doing benchmarks of the software raid. I've never had data loss from software raid, except when I failed two drives in a raid 5 set at once (oops). Even pulling the cord when the machine was rebuilding the raid left the data intact, which impressed me. You might get better speed by using a hardware raid card, but unless you're doing stuff that needs high performance. Besides, I've had more issues with hardware raid doing stupid things or having poor performance, but that's probably because I was using "older" PC raid stuff. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 11 00:01:15 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Plato In-Reply-To: <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> der Mouse declared on Sunday 10 October 2004 12:36 am: > > [T]here's an emulated Cyber running PLATO online now at > > http://www.cyber1.org > > ...which unfortunately is, effectively, restricted to people in or > near California, or who are willing to ignore the user agreement > (section 6 of the agreement is totally insane for anyone for whom > California would be inconvenient). > > Pity. It'd be nice to have PLATO back again; I have fond memories of > using it in the late '70s. Oh well. You know, it seems perfectly reasonable to me for someone who's providing a FREE SERVICE. If you feel like you may need to take legal action against someone who is giving you something for free which they're spending money on, you have issues. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 11 00:17:42 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C0A@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <003901c4af51$abc2f930$f92c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Leavitt" To: Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:55 PM Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 > Scored this from the local "cleanup week", sans monitor, keyboard and mouse. > Has the DayStar Digital 100 MHz PPC upgrade board installed. Now, what do I > do with it? I have a keyboard and mouse on the way. > > I have plenty of "standard" PC VGA monitors. Will these probably work? What > OS would suit this machine the "best". I am primarily a Xenix/Linux/Solaris > man, with a smattering of Microsoft products. Which OS will be the most > "usefull" I know the machine has at least 48 Meg of RAM. Not sure exactly > until I get it connected to a monitor. > > What are the Pros and Cons of each OS? > > Thanks for any suggestions, > Kelly > I think the 800 shipped with OS 7.1 pro. Any of the os 7.X version should run fine on that machine, apple allows you to download OS 7.5.3 and upgrade it to 7.5.5 for free if you download the disk images from the apple site. The unit by itself can go to OS 8.1 (last for 68k macs) but with the PPC upgrade you can probably do 8.x (if you like slow machines). If you are real adventuresome you can go dig up a copy of Apple A/UX unix and run that on the 800 (without PPC upgrade). You will need a VGA to Mac video adapter to use a standard SVGA monitor on your Mac. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 11 00:32:20 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Plato In-Reply-To: <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200410110540.BAA29326@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> [PLATO on an emulator] >> ...which unfortunately is, effectively, restricted to people in or >> near California, or who are willing to ignore the user agreement >> (section 6 of the agreement is totally insane for anyone for whom >> California would be inconvenient). > You know, it seems perfectly reasonable to me for someone who's > providing a FREE SERVICE. Fine. Go ahead and agree to it, then; it's your neck. > If you feel like you may need to take legal action against someone > who is giving you something for free which they're spending money on, > you have issues. That's not the problem. The problem is that they require that I agree that California is an acceptable venue for _them_ to act against _me_, too, in case they ever feel like it. Legal systems have evolved their choice of venue rules over a long time and with good reason; I'm not willing to agree to casually brush them aside - especially when it means agreeing to subject myself to the jurisdiction of perhaps the most lawsuit-trigger-happy country in the world today, one with few to no defenses against abuse of the system. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 11 00:51:24 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 In-Reply-To: <003901c4af51$abc2f930$f92c1941@game> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C0A@mail.catcorner.org> <003901c4af51$abc2f930$f92c1941@game> Message-ID: > > Scored this from the local "cleanup week", sans monitor, keyboard and >mouse. >> Has the DayStar Digital 100 MHz PPC upgrade board installed. Now, what do >I >> do with it? I have a keyboard and mouse on the way. >> >> I have plenty of "standard" PC VGA monitors. Will these probably work? >What >> OS would suit this machine the "best". I am primarily a >Xenix/Linux/Solaris >> man, with a smattering of Microsoft products. Which OS will be the most >> "usefull" I know the machine has at least 48 Meg of RAM. Not sure exactly >> until I get it connected to a monitor. >> >> What are the Pros and Cons of each OS? >> >> Thanks for any suggestions, >> Kelly >> > >I think the 800 shipped with OS 7.1 pro. Any of the os 7.X version should >run fine on that machine, apple allows you to download OS 7.5.3 and upgrade >it to 7.5.5 for free if you download the disk images from the apple site. >The unit by itself can go to OS 8.1 (last for 68k macs) but with the PPC >upgrade you can probably do 8.x (if you like slow machines). > >If you are real adventuresome you can go dig up a copy of Apple A/UX unix >and run that on the 800 (without PPC upgrade). > >You will need a VGA to Mac video adapter to use a standard SVGA monitor on >your Mac. With the Daystar 100Mhz PPC Upgrade his options might very well be limited. I believe such things of that era tended to require 3rd party extensions. Mac OS 8.x if it will run it, is a nice choice, I ran 8.6 for several years on my G4/450, finally upgrading to get iTunes. With the proper software the system will be good for email and general office apps, however, surfing on it would be painful. I still have my PowerMac 8500/180 (180Mhz 604e PPC) and surfing on it has been painful for years, even on my G4/450 it isn't the most fun, though finally installing Mac OS X 10.2 and using Safari made surfing on the G4 much better. I'm guessing A/UX is *totally* out of the question, and that even NetBSD or Linux wouldn't run either, but I might be wrong about the last two. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Oct 11 01:18:32 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: HP posters wanted References: <009001c4ae75$05a3e410$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <009a01c4af5a$224d3860$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Jay we will be scanning some stuff from full page mag ads when we start enhancing the hp display area. happy to share scanned files for your personal use. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:58 PM Subject: HP posters wanted > That poster got me thinking.... anyone have any HP 21MX or 21XX type > marketing posters? I just realized I don't have anything like that in my > collection, and would certainly love to. Anyone have any duplicates to > trade? > > Thanks! > > Jay > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 11 03:22:20 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 In-Reply-To: References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C0A@mail.catcorner.org> <003901c4af51$abc2f930$f92c1941@game> Message-ID: <416A42BC.6020105@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> > Scored this from the local "cleanup week", sans monitor, keyboard and >> mouse. >> >>> Has the DayStar Digital 100 MHz PPC upgrade board installed. Now, >>> what do >> >> I >> >>> do with it? I have a keyboard and mouse on the way. >>> >>> I have plenty of "standard" PC VGA monitors. Will these probably work? You need a cheap ($10-25) adapter, but yes. > I'm guessing A/UX is *totally* out of the question, and that even NetBSD > or Linux wouldn't run either, but I might be wrong about the last two. I'd probably go with NetBSD, even if I had to dump the Daystar processor. I know it will run on the Q800, but I'm not sure about the PPC upgrade. With 48MB of RAM, MacOS is going to be excruciating. A/UX is fun, but not well suited to surfing in the modern world. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 11 04:35:58 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C0A@mail.catcorner.org> <003901c4af51$abc2f930$f92c1941@game> <416A42BC.6020105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <002d01c4af75$bfc74ac0$f92c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 4:22 AM Subject: Re: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> > Scored this from the local "cleanup week", sans monitor, keyboard and > >> mouse. > >> > >>> Has the DayStar Digital 100 MHz PPC upgrade board installed. Now, > >>> what do > >> > >> I > >> > >>> do with it? I have a keyboard and mouse on the way. > >>> > >>> I have plenty of "standard" PC VGA monitors. Will these probably work? > > You need a cheap ($10-25) adapter, but yes. > > > I'm guessing A/UX is *totally* out of the question, and that even NetBSD > > or Linux wouldn't run either, but I might be wrong about the last two. > > I'd probably go with NetBSD, even if I had to dump the Daystar > processor. I know it will run on the Q800, but I'm not sure about the > PPC upgrade. With 48MB of RAM, MacOS is going to be excruciating. A/UX > is fun, but not well suited to surfing in the modern world. > > > Doc > Unless this is his only computer why would he need to surf the web on it? I can get online easy enough on my 840av with maxed ram , but I only do it if I have to since I have at least 6 other machines better suited for that task. System 7.5 should run ok on 48mb of ram, and more can be added if needed (72 pin simms). A/UX will fun on a 800. http://www.aux-penelope.com/hardware.htm From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Oct 11 04:50:26 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: DEC W940 wire-wrap board Message-ID: <416A5762.30406@pacbell.net> A guy on Ebay seems to have a supply of these. The are labelled "Intercon", but it is clear that they OEMed the boards from DEC and ground off the DEC markings. These do *not* have sockets -- you either solder in the chips or your own sockets, maximum 16-pin DIP, 50 parts. Bypass caps are pre-installed at all positions. He's also got the the smaller double-height boards. I bought a few of these, and they look OK, although the pins are *not* gold plated and are less than perfectly pristine. The seller seemed a bit disorganized, and I had to send an inquiry after waiting a month with no shipment, though I got an apology and a free extra board for my trouble. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26213&item=3840658718&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V eBay item 3840658718 (Ends Oct-16-04 22:25:26 PDT) - Large Wire Wrap Board Pluggable for DIP IC Prototypes http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26213&item=3840659420&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V eBay item 3840659420 (Ends Oct-16-04 22:33:35 PDT) - Wire Wrap Board Pluggable for DIP IC Prototypes There is also another board that looks like it is intended for some flavor of DG Nova. You can't see the chips in the photo, but half of the board is already populated. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26213&item=3840658716&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V eBay item 3840658716 (Ends Oct-16-04 22:25:24 PDT) - Huge Wire Wrap Board Pluggable for DIP IC Prototypes From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 11 07:43:40 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Oct 10, 4 10:51:24 pm" Message-ID: <200410111243.FAA14998@floodgap.com> > With the Daystar 100Mhz PPC Upgrade his options might very well be > limited. I believe such things of that era tended to require 3rd > party extensions. Mac OS 8.x if it will run it, is a nice choice, I > ran 8.6 for several years on my G4/450, finally upgrading to get > iTunes. 8.1 should install just fine, and would be a good speed and functionality compromise. 8.6 would be a little much. Make sure not to lose the extension for enabling the PPC card! > I'm guessing A/UX is *totally* out of the question, and that even > NetBSD or Linux wouldn't run either, but I might be wrong about the > last two. A/UX, yes, no go. NetBSD currently does not support Power Mac/nubus, and I don't think any of the Linux distros (even the nubus ones) support any of the PowerPC expansion cards either. He'd actually have more support with the native '040 (and that can -still- run 8.1). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. ----------- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 11 03:38:40 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000901c4ae56$bb7230e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20041010110311.3823a744.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <000401c4aecd$b4f8cef0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <416975AD.2010906@mdrconsult.com> <001401c4aef7$205ac030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:29:49 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: > Interesting. I haven't used a promise card in a long time... but I > thought I recalled the OS (FreeBSD) only seeing the logical drives, > not the physical ones. Maybe FreeBSD has a special driver that can detect the Promise RAID setup and do the software RAID just like the Promise BIOS? > I could well be wrong. Looks like 3ware two drive raid 0,1 controllers > can be had for $115. Add to that a $60 some odd cost for another 160gb > drive, and we should be cool. You have to by two RAID controllers if you wane be real save. You need a spare in case the RAID controler fails. The RAID controler is a single point of failure! > Just because you CAN do a thing, doesn't mean you should. I view cpu > cycles as precious and not to be used frivolously even when available > in good supply. Perhaps it dates back to my mentality of pouring over > machine code to save a cycle here and there :) It depends on the load that the server already has and how much overhead software RAID1 causes. Typically RAID1 doesn't cost that much CPU. To the past - present comparision: CPUs got a _lot_ more faster then disk dirves in the past 20 years. See the thoughts behind the BSD LFS. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Oct 11 10:12:42 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > You have to by two RAID controllers if you wane be real save. You need a > spare in case the RAID controler fails. The RAID controler is a single > point of failure! They call that controller duplexing. Separate controllers, active, preferrably on separate buses. > It depends on the load that the server already has and how much overhead > software RAID1 causes. Typically RAID1 doesn't cost that much CPU. To > the past - present comparision: CPUs got a _lot_ more faster then disk > dirves in the past 20 years. See the thoughts behind the BSD LFS. I have never trusted OS-level disk redundancy schemes, and never will. Promise controllers have strange ways of doing things, and most certainly do require OS-level software assistance. Disks attached to a Promise RAID1 controller can be taken off the Promise, and attached to a regular IDE port, and will work as-is. Typical RAID controllers that do hardware-supported RAID store state and config info on the attached drives, so they usually claim a few sectors for that. Cheers, --fred (happily using SAN, Compaq RAID and InforTrend IDE RAID.) From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 11 10:17:36 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: AVL Coyote Memory Programmer Message-ID: I can't find a date on this thing, so it might be off topic, but visually it sure looks older then 10 years. I got this from the "it isn't selling so it is now garbage, help yourself" pile at a garage sale over the weekend. It is labeled as an AVL Coyote Memory Programmer. Near as I can find, it is a slide projector dissolve controller. It has 3 wires hanging from it that I'd guess plug into slide projector remote ports. However, all the slide projectors I have seen have 5 pin jacks. These cables have the standard 5 pin plug, but there are an additional 2 pins below it that will prevent them from being used with any slide projects I have. It also has two RCA style jacks labeled Play In and Record Out. I'm taking a guess they are saving and loading any programming you have done. (There are Memory Save and Memory Load buttons on the keyboard that helps me draw this conclusion). Without knowing how to use it, I can't say if it works or not. It powers on, and in just pressing the buttons, I think some of the keys may not work. They are pressure pad like keys, and it feels like the top of the pads is lifting up, so the keys that don't seem to do anything could just be failing to make contact (or could only work in some combination or under certain times). Does anyone know anything about this thing? Any idea where I can locate a manual? Is there anyone that has been hunting for one of these and would like it? I'd be interested in playing with it if I can figure out how to use it and can find slide projectors that work with it, but it isn't anything that I'd do more than play with, so if there is someone that would love to have it, I can probably be persuaded to give it away. -chris From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 11 10:22:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: OT: shipping from USA to UK Message-ID: <200410111522.IAA20689@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >Off-topic because it's not a classic computer (it's a pice of >microscopy equipment)... > >I have the prospect of buying something very cheaply in the States, but >which would be expensive here in the UK. Unfortunately, it weighs too >much for normal UPS -- about 80lb. FedEx want over $300 to ship it. > Can anyone think of a better way? > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Hi Pete If it is a piece of equipment, have is broken down into several sub pieces for shipping. You know, remove the power supply, etc. Dwight From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 11 11:57:50 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector Message-ID: Is there any reliable place to check what the name of a connector style is? I have one I am trying to track down so I can purchase a replacement. But most of the catalogs that sell large assortments of connectors don't have pictures of each style. That makes it tough to buy the right thing when you don't know what it is called. In this case, the connector looks rather like an ATX power plug. Only physically smaller (but has more pins). I'm sure Mouser will have what I want, as soon as I find what it is called so I can look it up. I go thru this on a regular basis, so I didn't know if someone knew of a web site, or of some dealer who's catalog actually showed pictures of each style. -chris From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 12:07:42 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640410111007447b1c93@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:57:50 -0400, chris wrote: > Is there any reliable place to check what the name of a connector style > is? I have one I am trying to track down so I can purchase a replacement. > But most of the catalogs that sell large assortments of connectors don't > have pictures of each style. That makes it tough to buy the right thing > when you don't know what it is called. > > In this case, the connector looks rather like an ATX power plug. Only > physically smaller (but has more pins). I'm sure Mouser will have what I > want, as soon as I find what it is called so I can look it up. > > I go thru this on a regular basis, so I didn't know if someone knew of a > web site, or of some dealer who's catalog actually showed pictures of > each style. > > -chris > > > Try RS components they have pictures of most of their stuff, but you have to find the category first which can be difficult. But the search engine is quite good. www.rswww.com Dan From jplist at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 11 12:58:03 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Xerox 9700 card identification Message-ID: Greetings; I've got a line on a Xerox 9700 COM driver, which appears to be a double-rack containing a CDC disk, a PDP11/34a, a big magtape and a couple honkin' great PSUs. Was wondering if anyone could identify one of the cards in the unit - this is the list I received from the owner: M7843 DR11-K Digital I/O M7856 DL11-W SLU/RTC M8265 KD11-EA 11/34A Data Paths Module (rep M7265) M8266 KD11-EA 11/34A Control Module (rep M7266) M9202 (2 bus) Inverted Jumpered Unibus Cable (M9192 + M9292) M9031-YX Unibus to 3 3M cables for 11/74? M9302 Unibus Terminator - Far End X020 5012180B-P2 Data Path X030 CDC Disk Controller X031 -5 VDC regulator 143103843-001 rev B 8x18 (6pop - 4116-20NL) == 96k? M8013 RL01 Disk Controller 1/2 M8014 RL01 Disk Controller 2/2 M8092 ??? M8200-YB 1-line sync DDCMP microprocessor w/ 1K control ROM (point-to-point, used with M8201) M8202-YA DMC-11-MA 1-Mbaud integral modem line unit M9301-YJ M9301 w/ bootstrap for DECnet DMC11, RX01, TU10, ASCII console I'm not sure where he got the descriptions, probably from some web resource or maybe even documentation of some description. I'm curious what the M8092 is, google doesn't return anything remotely related. Pictures of the 9700, amongst other bits and pieces, can be found here: http://microfilm.dyndns.org/~wulfcub/CompStuff The thing also comes with a couple spare CDC disk packs, and he thinks he can find an RX01 with the necessary disk controller for it too. Thanks; JP From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Mon Oct 11 13:39:18 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Free for postage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <416AD356.9060304@cableone.net> I volenteer in a church thrift shop. Many times we get computer stuff that we either pitch in the dumpster or canabalize for parts because our clientele wont buy them. Today I liberated a computer and a folder of MAC software on CDs (These are NOT RELATED). The computer is IBM compatable, but probably too old to go online Today I got a folder of Macintosh CDs that we would have pitched into the dumpster but I grabbed them and am offering them here to anyone who will pay the postage ($3.85). I just cant stand to see stuff go into the trash that maybe someone with an old computer could use. The folder contains the following titles: 1.) The Family Doctor 3rd edition 2.) Powermonger 3.) Syndicate 4.) Power Poker 5.) Populous II 6.) Puzzle Power 7.) The Labyrinth of Time Also rescued from the dumpster was an old computer that will probably end up going right back there because I dont have the space to store it. Its a ICM (no, not IBM) circa 1988, 16 Mhz, MSDOS (pre windows) with some Word Perfect software and some Bar Exam software on the HD (type 17) It is fully operational. The monitor is an KLH Orange on Black monichrome monitor. It has a 5.25" and a 3.25" diskette drive. Everything works, even the software.!! If you want it and live nearby (Corpus Christi TX area) maybe it would be a deal, but shipping would probably be around $25, maybe more. > > From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 11 13:43:27 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> At 16:12 11/10/2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > > It depends on the load that the server already has and how much overhead > > software RAID1 causes. Typically RAID1 doesn't cost that much CPU. To > > the past - present comparision: CPUs got a _lot_ more faster then disk > > dirves in the past 20 years. See the thoughts behind the BSD LFS. >I have never trusted OS-level disk redundancy schemes, and never >will. Promise controllers have strange ways of doing things, and >most certainly do require OS-level software assistance. Disks >attached to a Promise RAID1 controller can be taken off the Promise, >and attached to a regular IDE port, and will work as-is. Typical >RAID controllers that do hardware-supported RAID store state and >config info on the attached drives, so they usually claim a few >sectors for that. In my experience, running servers purely as a hobby, I've found the version of RAID1 as presented by cheap ATA controllers on FreeBSD more than adequate, a considerable speed up than a single drive, and definitely better than not having a raid, when a drive goes down!! I've used various cards (mostly SiL 0680 chipset) on FreeBSD without problem. At least on the 0680, they do write something to the disc, as taking the drives out of one machine and putting them on a different card in a different machine caused them to be spotted as a RAID pair before the OS had even had a chance to boot. Drives can be removed, and they do work on their own however too, so I don't know what gets stored where? You can mirror on FreeBSD using either vimum, which is pure software raid and will work across any drives no matter what types or controllers they are on (even a mix) or for most ATA IDE RAID cards, the ata driver has built in support (`man atacontrol`) which I presume negotiates with the card bios and sorts out who does what. Oh, as far as the SiL0680 specifically is concerned, from personal experience FreeBSD 4.10 works fine... 5.2 works, but 5.2.1 panics on boot (even booting the install). Later snapshots are OK again though, but for the moment 4.10 is still recommended for production servers, at least until 5.3 is out, which is apparently only a couple of weeks off. 5.3 apparently offers some new facilities (geom_vinum and gmirror) but I've not used them, or anything later than 5.2 yet, just seen them discussed while sorting out beta bugs on the freebsd-current list. Rob. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Oct 11 13:45:11 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Emulex TC12 controller Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113329@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Guy, perhaps I can be of some help here. I've got the original Emulex documentation of the TC12 tape coupler, and also the TC02 tape coupler. Both boards are quad-sized, the TC12 is for UNIBUS, the TC02 is for QBUS systems. To identify if your board is a TC12, I describe what is in manual. (wished that those pictures were in more manuals, they're great!) With the four rows of finger contacts right before you, in the middle of the board, at the left of the center are two DIP switch packages, and to the left of those are first 2 small IC's followed by 2 big AMD 2901 bit slices. At the opposite of the 4 finger contact rows (which go into UNIBUS slot positions C,D,E,F) are two 50-pin BERG header connectors. If this manual seems to be what you are looking for I can scan it at 600 dpi. Big file, but when printed gives very good copies! The contents (briefly): Introduction - General Description - Functional Description - Packet Processing - Installation - TC12 Option Switches - Address Selection - Autoconfigure and VMS, RSTS/E and RSX-11M. See mainecoon for an impression of the scan quality -- they are my work. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: cctalk@classiccmp.org Sent: 11-10-2004 6:07 Subject: Emulex TC12 controller Hi, I'm looking for information on the Emulex TC12 (I'm assuming) tape unibus controller. I have two Kennedy 9300 drives that I'd like to hook up and I have an Emulex TC12. I also have an AVIV board (hex height with 2 50 pin connectors on the top) that I have no other information on. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 11 14:38:55 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Plato In-Reply-To: <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > > > [T]here's an emulated Cyber running PLATO online now at > > > http://www.cyber1.org Yeah, the user agreement seems fine, in fact it's better than many. The Calif. civic code section seems trivial and unimportant, I mean, you're not putting your personal finances on this thing, right?! If you're running any legal shrink-wrapped software you've already agreed to far worse! (I say this as an open software snob :-) From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 11 14:46:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, chris wrote: > Is there any reliable place to check what the name of a connector style > is? No. You also didn't say what the connector is installed in! I assume you have one half of a connector pair, and want the other. The connector you have probably will reveal clues. Newer stuff is often harder to track than older. If you can get the connector out, with a magnifier look for molded-in letters IDing the manu or brand, often << 1mm or .010" or so. If you can't, do the classic hold-a-ruler-up-to-it and take a 300dpi photo and post it and ak the list to look at it. Older connectors (pre 1980, plus or minus 10 years) are usually easy. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 11 14:49:46 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Emulex TC12 controller In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113329@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <008a01c4afcb$75ddab60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > If this manual seems to be what you are looking for I can scan it > at 600 dpi. Big file, but when printed gives very good copies! > The contents (briefly): Introduction - General Description - > Functional > Description - Packet Processing - Installation - TC12 Option > Switches - > Address Selection - Autoconfigure and VMS, RSTS/E and RSX-11M. > See mainecoon for an impression of the scan quality -- they > are my work. There are already a few TC02 and TC12 things online (see vt100.net/manx). In addition there are some on bitsavers in pdf/emulex. I also have "TC12/FS (TS11 Compatible) Tape Coupler Technical Manual", part number "TC1251002 Rev H". I picked this up from somewhere on the net but I do not remember where (and it does not seem to be on bitsavers). If it is not still around somewhere, I could make it available for long enough to get it online somewhere. Hopefully this might save you some scanning work! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org LINC Tape Control From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 11 14:51:29 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Plato In-Reply-To: <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1096826742.25423.205663498@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200410100539.BAA08004@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200410110001.15439.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20041011195129.GD14956@bos7.spole.gov> > > > [T]here's an emulated Cyber running PLATO online now at > > > http://www.cyber1.org I just wish I could get access to it from behind our firewall. :-( (things are *really* tight here - SMTP is restricted to a small number of machines, for example; most protocols are simply blocked outright). I have fond memories of PLATO from a terminal at Ohio State, c. 1979. The two apps I remember running most often were a dungeon exploration game (that I am pretty sure was multi-player and persistent because it was nearly devoid of both treasures and monsters when I wandered through), and a chemistry lab simulation where you would "assemble" the glassware to distill liquids, etc. I know there was a lot more available, but those were the ones that I spent enough time with to make an impression. I also have a dimmer memory of using PLATO briefly when I visited an older relative at Purdue a year or two earlier, but I didn't get to play much. Ah, well... I'll have to fire it up when I get home in a few months. In the meantime, at least there are some decent 36-bit emulators to sate my nostalgia for late-70s Big Iron. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Oct-2004 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -42.3 F (-41.3 C) Windchill -80.40 F (-62.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.2 kts Grid 005 Barometer 687.6 mb (10341. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 11 15:03:40 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: I'm a little puzzled towards this hardware vs. software RAID, and worrying about computrons (aka CPU speed). For all the .*n[i,u]x's out there, the software RAIDs are pretty damn reliable. If you have reliability problems I'd dare say it's elsewhere. Hardware gets you more performance, but you really have to need it. Second, CPUs are just stupid silicon office products, they are SUPPOSED to work hard. Who cares if would like coffee breaks? I think most people also grossly overspec CPU, because (1) it sounds cool and (2) they don't really know what's needed (caveat, it's so cheap to overspec it's a perfectly valid approach, but no sense losing sleep over it). I build and run servers for a living (not exclusively) and I can tell you that even a crappy 100MHz P1 does a LOT of work with just decent hardware and enough memory. A gigacycle CPU with 512M, two EIDE channels, a real operating system, does REAL work! Mailman is slow because it's bloated, but a lot of software today is like sausage, I'll eat it well-cooked but refuse to look inside. You might as well get your money's worth from these cheap capitalist products, and don't worry about the needs of marketing. Big disks and more memory, you can hardly go wrong (or cheaper). From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Oct 11 15:07:58 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Emulex TC12 controller Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111332C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Thanks Antonio. My manual is a bit older: TC1251002 Rev E, June, 1983. I am going to scan it anyway; a request gives me a good reason to pick up some scanning work after a long idle time. As I said, I will scan in what the manuals calles "Sections". You/Guy/etc. can download what is relevant before I remove it from my site (URL follows when it's up). Now it's time to fill that 8th CD-ROM with FMPS and manuals ... - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: 11-10-2004 21:49 Subject: RE: Emulex TC12 controller > If this manual seems to be what you are looking for I can scan it > at 600 dpi. Big file, but when printed gives very good copies! > The contents (briefly): Introduction - General Description - > Functional > Description - Packet Processing - Installation - TC12 Option > Switches - > Address Selection - Autoconfigure and VMS, RSTS/E and RSX-11M. > See mainecoon for an impression of the scan quality -- they > are my work. There are already a few TC02 and TC12 things online (see vt100.net/manx). In addition there are some on bitsavers in pdf/emulex. I also have "TC12/FS (TS11 Compatible) Tape Coupler Technical Manual", part number "TC1251002 Rev H". I picked this up from somewhere on the net but I do not remember where (and it does not seem to be on bitsavers). If it is not still around somewhere, I could make it available for long enough to get it online somewhere. Hopefully this might save you some scanning work! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org LINC Tape Control From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 11 15:18:42 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: AVL Coyote Memory Programmer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041011161842.009485b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:17 AM 10/11/04 -0400, you wrote: >I can't find a date on this thing, so it might be off topic, but visually >it sure looks older then 10 years. > >I got this from the "it isn't selling so it is now garbage, help >yourself" pile at a garage sale over the weekend. It is labeled as an AVL >Coyote Memory Programmer. Near as I can find, it is a slide projector >dissolve controller. It has 3 wires hanging from it that I'd guess plug >into slide projector remote ports. However, all the slide projectors I >have seen have 5 pin jacks. These cables have the standard 5 pin plug, >but there are an additional 2 pins below it that will prevent them from >being used with any slide projects I have. > >It also has two RCA style jacks labeled Play In and Record Out. I'm >taking a guess they are saving and loading any programming you have done. >(There are Memory Save and Memory Load buttons on the keyboard that helps >me draw this conclusion). > >Without knowing how to use it, I can't say if it works or not. It powers >on, and in just pressing the buttons, I think some of the keys may not >work. They are pressure pad like keys, and it feels like the top of the >pads is lifting up, so the keys that don't seem to do anything could just >be failing to make contact (or could only work in some combination or >under certain times). > >Does anyone know anything about this thing? I don't know about this particular model but I've found a number of AVL machines. I found that AVL made audio-visual controlllers (aka slide controllers). Some of the early ones were based on S-100 chassis with MOSTLY custom cards. I say mostly because I was told that they used Compupro CPU and RAM cards in a Compupro chassis. I've run across several different AVL systems but I've never found one with Compupro boards. I passed up a couple that appeared to use S-100 cards. I was going to get them just for the card sockets, power supplies etc but the owners' wanted too much for them and all the cards in them where custom. I also have a "newer" one that looks similar to an Apple II with external disk drives. Any idea where I can locate a >manual? I think AVL is still is business, you could try them but I doubt they'd be able to help. >s there anyone that has been hunting for one of these and would >like it? No thanks. I'd be interested in playing with it if I can figure out how to >use it and can find slide projectors that work with it, but it isn't >anything that I'd do more than play with, so if there is someone that >would love to have it, I can probably be persuaded to give it away. > >-chris Joe From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 11 15:24:36 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector Message-ID: >You also didn't say what the connector is installed in! This one in particular doesn't fit in the 10 year rule. Its from an original iMac. Its the power connector. It looks similar to an ATX connector, but it is smaller and has more pins. > I >assume you have one half of a connector pair, and want the >other. Yup, I have one side, and I want the other so I can splice in a new power supply. >If you can get the connector out, with a magnifier look for >molded-in letters IDing the manu or brand, often << 1mm or .010" >or so. I was able to find on it "FoxConn". It was almost completely rubbed off (or just poorly molded in), so I missed that on the first pass. I did check FoxConn's web site, and they do seem to have pics of most of their stuff. It is going to be a royal PITA, but I suspect I will just have to click thru their online list and hope I find the right one. (On a first try, I wasn't able to find something that looked right AND had the right number of pins AND right pitch for the pins). >If you can't, do the classic hold-a-ruler-up-to-it and take a >300dpi photo and post it and ak the list to look at it. If I don't have luck on FoxConn's web site tonight, I'll probably upload a pic and see if anyone recognizes it. Otherwise, I may just have to find pins that fit and put them all in place, then use silicone caulk or hot glue to make my own shell to hold them in the right alignment. -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Oct 11 15:58:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: Tektronix Microlab I Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041011165853.00a002c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Well Tektronix stuff is still finding it's way to me! I went out this morning and found a Tektronix 7D15 Counter Timer plug-in and a Tektronix Microlab I in the bottom on a basket of scrap. Does anyone know anything about the Microlab? I thought it was some kind of digital trainer but found a referenece on the net, , about it being used with a special interface board to test Tek 7854 o'scopes (presumably the digital sections). It's mounted in a blue case similar to those used for the Tek 83x Communications Analyzers. Once you open the cover there is a hinged clear plastic cover on the LH side inside. The clear cover has a square opening that leads to a card slot in the main unit. On the RH side is a panel with an 8 digit LED display. The left four digits are labeled "address" and the right four are labeled "data". Below that is a hex kexpad. There are also four more keys along the RH edge. They are labeled "reset", "load address", "load data", "inc" and "dec". The sixteen hex keys also have shifted functions that look like something that would be found on a digital trainer. One the left side of the case near the rear are two 1/8" jacks that are labeled "cassette in" and "cassette out". One the right side of the case near the back are two DB-25 connectors, one labeled "RS-232 terminal" and the other labeled "RS-232 MODEM". I opened the case to check inside and found that it only has sone circuit board in it. It has a lot of TTL ICs, some 2114 RAMs, three 6850 UARTs but no CPU! I suppose the CPU is on the plug-in card (that I don't have :-( Anybody know anything about these? I couldn't find anything in my '86 Tektronix catalog and only one mention on the net. Joe From ss at allegro.com Mon Oct 11 16:18:40 2004 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: (Fwd) FW: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 Message-ID: <416A9640.21576.5031486@localhost> Of possible interest to UCSD Pascal fans... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Kelly Briggs (kbriggs@soe.ucsd.edu) Subject: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 Dozens of alumni will gather at UCSD on Friday, Oct. 22, to mark the 30th anniversary of the computer language UCSD Pascal, one of the first languages of the personal-computer era. The UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium will take place from 1 p.m. to 4:30 p.m. in the Price Center Ballroom, and will be open to the public, free of charge. (To register, go to http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/Pascal/registration.sfe.) The UCSD Pascal symposium is organized by UCSD?s Jacobs School of Engineering and its Computer Science and Engineering (CSE) department, and is co-sponsored by the California Institute for Telecommunications and Information Technology. The event will feature talks by several former researchers on the project, including UCSD Pascal?s founding father, professor emeritus Kenneth Bowles, who will speculate on "Pascal: What If?". Other speakers include Richard Kaufmann, class of ?78, now a distinguished technologist at Hewlett-Packard, who will reminisce on "What the Heck Was UCSD Pascal?;" Roger Sumner, ?77, president of Beach Software Designs, who will discuss Pascal?s far-reaching impact; and CSE professor Henrik Wann Jensen, on ?Digital Illumination.? Following those presentations, CSE professor Stefan Savage will moderate a roundtable discussion among Kaufmann, Sumner and four other members of Bowles? early research team: Mark Overgaard, '78, President, Pigeon Point Systems; John Van Zandt, '76 '79 '86, President, CEO Consultancy, Inc.; Keith Shillington, '78, Co-Owner, E Street Caf?, Encinitas, California; and Lucia Yandell, '78 '80, JSF SW Process Lead, Northrop Grumman, ST Radio Systems. UCSD Pascal became both a programming language and an operating system for some of the earliest personal computers. Its development not only put computer science at UCSD on the map in a big way, but its innovations also had a major impact on developers of other languages and operating systems at Apple, Microsoft, and elsewhere. Pascal was originally created by Swiss scientist Niklaus Wirth in 1969 for use on mainframe computers. But starting in 1974, Bowles ? who at the time directed UCSD?s computing center ? began to adapt Pascal for use on so-called "microcomputers," precursors of today?s PCs. At one point or another, more than 70 students were involved in the UCSD Pascal project, and by 1983, UCSD Pascal had become an ISO standard language. The University of California then sold the technology to SofTech Systems, which tried but failed to convince IBM to adopt UCSD Pascal as the core operating system of its first personal computers. (Microsoft's MS-DOS won the IBM contract.) For a history of the UCSD Pascal program, including recollections from many of the speakers who will attend the symposium, read ?UCSD Pascal and the PC Revolution,? by Christine Foster, in the September 2004 issue of @UCSD. It is available online at http://www.alumni.ucsd.edu/magazine/vol1no3/features/pascal.htm . For the complete program, go to http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/Pascal/ . We hope to see you there! ------- End of forwarded message ------- From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 11 16:56:25 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: AVL Coyote Memory Programmer References: Message-ID: <004f01c4afdd$28258fc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I can take it off your hands. Let's do it now, in Cyberspace. You go up to the top floor of your building and we can make the transfer there. Just hold it out over the edge of the building and we can process the transaction virtually.* John A. I have owned and scrapped such machines and believe that their value is "limited". I have a Tiffen 5-wire audiotape player/projector controller here for you at our next convenience. Or... perhaps I can make a similar property "transfer" to you. * If indeed this is an S100 machine then don't do it! From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 11 18:27:14 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: (Fwd) FW: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 Message-ID: <20041011232714.3C3333CBB@spies.com> Sellam, any chance you can get down there to try to talk to the people about archived versions of the UCSD software? From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 11 18:30:38 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, chris wrote: > original iMac. Its the power connector. It looks similar to an ATX > connector, but it is smaller and has more pins. Google of 'imac power connector' turns up a lot of hits. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 18:14:01 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Oct 11, 4 12:57:50 pm Message-ID: > In this case, the connector looks rather like an ATX power plug. Only > physically smaller (but has more pins). I'm sure Mouser will have what I > want, as soon as I find what it is called so I can look it up. Possibly one of the many AMP or Molex connectors (but that's not enough to identify it properly). What's it in? Maybe somebody knows the unit in question... -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Oct 11 19:36:34 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: archeology Message-ID: <200410120036.i9C0aYag012383@mwave.heeltoe.com> Howdy, I'm doing some archilogy in a local garage and finding some interesting things. I've only just begun but I thought I'd ask if anyone would like to see these scanned: - tek 611 storage scope manual - PDP-6 schematics It looks like pdp-6 prints may already be in bitsavers - I'm not a pdp-6 person Didn't see any 611 info. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 11 19:58:45 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: HP paper tape punch References: Message-ID: <005501c4aff6$a08b35f0$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=462174&convertTo=USD Pretty sweet! That would go well on a 2114/2115/2116. > Also there are now 17 HP1000's I'm officially out of collecting more MX/E's, I have all I want it prinstine condition. But I am looking at a few of the auctions for the MX/M's. I'm definitely going to get a pallet or two, just not sure which lot of M's to bid on. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 11 20:19:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> > I'm a little puzzled towards this hardware vs. software RAID, > and worrying about computrons (aka CPU speed). Everyone who is talking about "software raid is ok because I've used it without trouble"... that's a pretty insufficient argument. Kinda like someone saying "Oh, you can format double density floppies to single density and it works great because I did it". B.S. - a little education and you'd see why it's precarious. I've seen people who argue about that because they have "proof it works fine". Just wait till a few months go by and their data doesn't appear anymore :) Not that software raid doesn't work, it does, and quite well. But all I'm saying is a better argument might sway me. That one doesn't. Look at what has to happen with software raid. The software has to set up twice as many DMA transfers, handle twice as many interrupts, block waiting on I/O twice as many times, and send double the data across the bus. I'm aghast that many of the classiccmp'ers here aren't revolted by that just on principle. The same mentality got us MS/Windows "Oh, don't worry about the cpu cycles, it's just trivial to add this little pop-up box...". Trivial adds up. Jay "vying for freds 'grumpy old' title" West From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Oct 11 20:45:57 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? Message-ID: <20041012014553.YBKR14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, Picked up another big load this weekend, and am just starting to go through it - Item#1 is a TRS-80 Model IV. When I first powered it up, it sucked on the Empty bottom drive for a couple of seconds, then prompted with "Cass?" and entered ROM basic. Tried a Model IV boot disk and go the same result - so I removed the drive and cleaned it (machine has been sitting a long time). Now, it powers up, selects the drive and "hangs" - does not move on to the "Cass?" prompt - I've checked all connections and socketed chips, and everything is clean and looks OK. Have reseated everthing several times. A few of observations: - If I hold RESET while I power up the machine, the drive motors still come on, but I do not get a select - the select appears to be happening under software control. - If I disconnect the disk controller board ribbon cable, the machine powers up at the "Cass?" prompt - in this case, I believe the ROM startup sees that there is no disk system and enters ROM basic, thinking that it is a diskless unit. - If I power-up/reset while holding BREAK, it also gives the "Cass?" prompt - after briefly selecting the drive - looks like BREAK very soon after power-up can interrupt the boot process, and ROM BASIC comes up normally. - I never see the drive seek - it selects, but does not seek. If I manually move the drive head out during power-off, it DOES NOT seek back to track-0 after selecting the drive when I power it on. - Twice so far in a couple of hours of working on it, I have seen the prompt "Diskette?" (no cursor) after powering on the machine (with disk controller connected and not holding BREAK). I cannot make this prompt come up reliably. It looks to me as if something in it's interaction with the disk controller is hanging the machine. Anyone here knowlegable in TRS-80's? Can anyone tell me what the Model IV is *SUPPOSED* to do on power-up, both with and without a boot disk in the drive (I have no documentation at all). Any pointers to service documentation? ROM listings? Other information on servicing a model IV - any idea how I can further diagnose this problem? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 11 20:58:06 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: archeology In-Reply-To: <200410120036.i9C0aYag012383@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: If no one else on-list responds for the PDP information, I can direct it to interested parties. I am personally VERRY interested in and PDP-8, but have contacts for all PDP info. David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:37 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: archeology >>> >>> >>> Howdy, >>> >>> I'm doing some archilogy in a local garage and finding some >>> interesting things. I've only just begun but I thought I'd >>> ask if anyone would like to see these scanned: >>> >>> - tek 611 storage scope manual >>> - PDP-6 schematics >>> >>> It looks like pdp-6 prints may already be in bitsavers - >>> I'm not a pdp-6 person >>> >>> Didn't see any 611 info. >>> >>> -brad From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 11 20:50:03 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:58 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > Everyone who is talking about "software raid is ok because I've used it > without trouble"... that's a pretty insufficient argument. Kinda like someone > saying "Oh, you can format double density floppies to single density and it > works great because I did it". B.S. - a little education and you'd see why > it's precarious. I've seen people who argue about that because they have > "proof it works fine". Just wait till a few months go by and their data > doesn't appear anymore :) Not that software raid doesn't work, it does, and > quite well. But all I'm saying is a better argument might sway me. That one > doesn't. Well it's your box, and your decision, but I don't see why RAID drivers are any more suspect than another software driver. I don't however understand why criticizing it on the number of likely overlapping I/O transfers is valid. There's far more complex software in there already. In fact I think that RAID is a waste of time and money and complexity; you can get a lot of inexpensive, simple and reliable performance by using one EIDE per drive (with CDROM a slave on any) and "big" drive(s) chosen to be right at the beginnign of the steep-price knee. Split archives and lists onto drives/mount points, your oldest drive as OS, one of (two?) new, big drives rsync -ua one to the other for "mirror", etc. Cheap, simple, fast, easy, changable later, etc. If you've got a 100Mbit ether, it's unlikely it will exceed the disk or OS speed. I'll let others have the last word on this. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 11 21:02:37 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >>> >>> Look at what has to happen with software raid. The software >>> has to set up twice as many DMA transfers, handle twice as >>> many interrupts, block waiting on I/O twice as many times, >>> and send double the data across the bus. I'm aghast that >>> many of the classiccmp'ers here aren't revolted by that >>> just on principle. The same mentality got us MS/Windows >>> "Oh, don't worry about the cpu cycles, it's just trivial to >>> add this little pop-up box...". Trivial adds up. >>> Trivial does add up, but so do other things. The "correct" answer depends on properly weighing each of the factors. For each application the weights are going to be different (sometimes radically). An equally valid argument is that hardware raid increates the number of transistors involved. This will increase the chance of hardware failure. While both of the above statements are 100% true, there is no real meaningful conclusion to draw from them on the entire problem at hand. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 11 21:02:09 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: Message-ID: <009a01c4afff$7b73e290$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> > An equally valid argument is that hardware raid increates the number of > transistors involved. This will increase the chance of hardware failure. Yup.... but increase the chance of failure relative to what? A mechanical assembly with friction & such? Jay From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 11 21:16:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Tom Jennings Wrote: >>> >>> In fact I think that RAID is a waste of time and money and >>> complexity; you can get a lot of inexpensive, simple and >>> reliable performance by using one EIDE per drive (with >>> CDROM a slave on >>> any) and "big" drive(s) chosen to be right at the beginnign >>> of the steep-price knee. Split archives and lists onto >>> drives/mount points, your oldest drive as OS, one of (two?) >>> new, big drives rsync -ua one to the other for "mirror", >>> etc. Cheap, simple, fast, easy, changable later, etc. >>> For on-line archive type applications, I would agree that "rsync" type solutions can be quite effective. You can even use more expensive, smaller, faster drives as the primary and use really big cheap drives for the online copies. HOWEVER, I would NOT use this type of solution for any transitory type data, or any data which required the secondary to be a 100% consistant copy of the primary. The failure/performance points is RAID, have been covered, and I choose between them based on the exact application [with software raid being the more common choice] From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 11 21:18:55 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: archeology Message-ID: <20041012021855.76EA33C9B@spies.com> > if anyone would like to see these scanned: A KA-10 print set would be nice to find. From AppleTO at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:29:32 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 In-Reply-To: <200410111243.FAA14998@floodgap.com> References: <200410111243.FAA14998@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1047a6e604101119292af28d4c@mail.gmail.com> I'm inclined to say dump the PPC card and go with System 7.1 or NetBSD 1.4 or 1.5. Both of these are examples in how an operating system should be designed, from the end user perspective. Later versions of Mac OS may be great for running more recent applications, but you don't get the same feeling from it. On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 05:43:40 -0700 (PDT), Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > With the Daystar 100Mhz PPC Upgrade his options might very well be > > limited. I believe such things of that era tended to require 3rd > > party extensions. Mac OS 8.x if it will run it, is a nice choice, I > > ran 8.6 for several years on my G4/450, finally upgrading to get > > iTunes. From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 11 21:35:48 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: AVL Coyote Memory Programmer Message-ID: >* If indeed this is an S100 machine then don't do it! Having never seen an S100 machine I can't say for sure, but I did open the case today and there are no slots of any kind. Just a bunch of ICs soldered to a single board (actually, two boards, but one appears to be just for controlling the keypad and display). My guess is, it is just a custom unit, and I really don't think it has any value. I have to dig thru my slide projectors, some of the info I found leads me to believe some of the Kodak ones I have should support the remote connector. I've never noticed a 7 pin connector before, but the way the extra two pins are placed, I may have simply not paid attention when plugging in a standard 5 pin remote. Baring finding a usable slide projector, I'll be returning it to where I got it, curbside garbage. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Mon Oct 11 21:42:44 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector Message-ID: >> original iMac. Its the power connector. It looks similar to an ATX >> connector, but it is smaller and has more pins. > >Google of 'imac power connector' turns up a lot of hits. Yes, many many hits, alas none that say what the connector is. They are all how to hack in an ATX power supply, but they all expect you to have a connector you can salvage from a dead iMac... I lack that part. So I'm trying to track down what this thing is called, so I can buy a replacement. -chris From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 11 22:25:17 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Systems Message-ID: <416B4E9D.8554950C@rain.org> It is amazing what can be found by looking around :). I had a box of "stuff" from Polymorphic Systems that I finally got around to checking out. I didn't realize that Polymorphic made a keyboard, but I have a metal chassic with "Polymorphic" on it and about 6 keyboard assemblies that fit inside. I also found a front panel to a System HD/18, a number of "new" System 88/DS front panels, a System 8810 front panel, various back panels, and enough wooden sides for another 5 computers or so. All of the front panels have cutouts for full size 5 1/4" drives. Maybe this will be the kick in the ... seat :) to get me going and backing up all the Polymorphic disks (8" and 5 1/4" totaling probably a couple of hundred disks) including source code and documentation for their products. Does anyone know what the HD/18 and 88/DS systems were all about? I've got another box someplace that holds a pair of 8" drives with Polymorphic logo on it, but I haven't had time to look through all the engineering documentation to find out what it is. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 11 22:34:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Looking for Astounding Arcade Games For Your Spectrum+ & Spectrum Message-ID: I'm looking for the book ASTOUNDING ARCADE GAMES FOR YOUR SPECTRUM+ & SPECTRUM by David Perry (published by Interface). This would've been published in the UK (13,000 copies). Does anyone know where to locate one? I have a friend who's trying to find it for some research he's doing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 11 23:16:11 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: OS Suggestions - Mac Quadra 800 In-Reply-To: <1047a6e604101119292af28d4c@mail.gmail.com> from Ronald Wayne at "Oct 11, 4 10:29:32 pm" Message-ID: <200410120416.VAA12772@floodgap.com> > I'm inclined to say dump the PPC card and go with System 7.1 or NetBSD > 1.4 or 1.5. Why 1.4/5? NetBSD 1.6.2 works just great on my Q605, and with the sysinst kernel was much easier to install than the old crufty Installer application. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 23:47:58 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? In-Reply-To: <20041012014553.YBKR14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 11, 4 09:45:57 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > Picked up another big load this weekend, and am just starting to go > through it - Item#1 is a TRS-80 Model IV. > > When I first powered it up, it sucked on the Empty bottom drive for > a couple of seconds, then prompted with "Cass?" and entered ROM basic. This means it ccouldn't find a disk controller. The Cass? prompt is to select High (1500 buaf) or Low (500 baud) cassette operation. The next prompt is 'Memory Size' (to specify the highest address that will be used by BASIC, thus allowing you to reserve memory for machine code programs, etc), then you go into BASIC. > Tried a Model IV boot disk and go the same result - so I removed the > drive and cleaned it (machine has been sitting a long time). > > Now, it powers up, selects the drive and "hangs" - does not move on > to the "Cass?" prompt - I've checked all connections and socketed > chips, and everything is clean and looks OK. Have reseated everthing > several times. Have you checked -- I mean _really_ checked -- the ribbon cable between the CPU board and the disk controller board. That's a common cause of this sort of problem. > - If I disconnect the disk controller board ribbon cable, the machine > powers up at the "Cass?" prompt - in this case, I believe the ROM > startup sees that there is no disk system and enters ROM basic, > thinking that it is a diskless unit. This is correct, and it's what you should see. > > - If I power-up/reset while holding BREAK, it also gives the "Cass?" > prompt - after briefly selecting the drive - looks like BREAK very > soon after power-up can interrupt the boot process, and ROM BASIC > comes up normally. Yes. Resetting with BREAK held down will get the machine to ignore the disk system and pretend to be a cassette-only machine. > > - I never see the drive seek - it selects, but does not seek. > If I manually move the drive head out during power-off, it DOES NOT > seek back to track-0 after selecting the drive when I power it on. > Can anyone tell me what the Model IV is *SUPPOSED* to do on power-up, both > with and without a boot disk in the drive (I have no documentation at all). > Roughly what you're seeing... My guess is that it's not talking properly to the 1793 disk controller chip. I have had this chip fail :-(. But you might start by checking the power supply (there's a second PSU board in disk units, mounted on the side of the drive tower, which supplies the disk controller board and drives). And then check and re-check that ribbon cable. > Any pointers to service documentation? ROM listings? Other information on > servicing a model IV - any idea how I can further diagnose this problem? I have schematics. FWIW, the disk controller board is the same as in the Model 3, should you be able to find info on that machine. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 02:19:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Any info on "Kid Newton" Message-ID: I'm seeking out information on the Kid Newton, which was some special version of Apple's Newton. Here's a photo: http://www.msu.edu/~luckie/kidnewt.gif This is for a client of mine but I'm not sure what if anything this information will be worth. If you have a write-up or more photos of this device (or you happen to have one) please contact me and we'll discuss further. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 02:42:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: HP 2621-P terminal Message-ID: Does anyone want an HP 2621-P terminal? Lawrence has one for you. Please contact him if interested at . Photo: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/carman.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 03:03:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Systems In-Reply-To: <416B4E9D.8554950C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Does anyone know what the HD/18 and 88/DS systems were all about? I've > got another box someplace that holds a pair of 8" drives with > Polymorphic logo on it, but I haven't had time to look through all the > engineering documentation to find out what it is. Hmmm....88/DS...a box with a pair of 8" drives. My guess based on these hints is that the 88/DS is in fact the dual 8" drive box? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 12 05:09:54 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> > In fact I think that RAID is a waste of time and money and > complexity; Depends what you can lay your hands on. Companies are throwing out machines of only a couple of years old with some pretty high spec hardware in, so the money side isn't always an issue. Complexity-wise, the controller BIOS setup utilities usually take care of the complex stuff and present it in an easy-to-understand way. > you can get a lot of inexpensive, simple and reliable > performance by using one EIDE per drive Where's IDE these days relative to SCSI? For a machine that's processing a lot of mail traffic (and hence a lot of disk I/O) SCSI controllers (RAID or otherwise) were always better than IDE - plus you get the higher reliability, more flexible bus options etc. (I'd expect for flat-out transfers of large files, there's not a lot in it) > If you've got a 100Mbit ether, it's unlikely it will exceed > the disk or OS speed. Not so convinced about that - remember that's bits, not bytes; ethernet isn't *that* fast (relative to other things). Then presumably if you're shunting a lot of small files around (as with a machine hosting a mailing list) then it'll be 1 or more packets per message with the resultant packet overhead. It all adds up pretty quick. As for mirroring to a seperate machine (if that's what you were intending) then disk performance should easily outstrip network bandwidth (and could probably upset the underlying mail software whilst mirroring was taking place) - I'd go for a seperate ethernet link between machines just for mirroring purposes in that case. (Our broken 1U machine at Bletchley actually has three 100MBit interfaces on the motherboard, presumably for this sort of reason) Only Jay knows how much on-line storage he needs, the nature of the data hosted on the server, and how much network traffic the server needs to move though. cheers Jules From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Oct 12 06:38:27 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3BA046B0-1C43-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 12/10/2004, at 11:19 AM, Jay West wrote: > Everyone who is talking about "software raid is ok because I've used > it without trouble"... that's a pretty insufficient argument. Kinda > like someone saying "Oh, you can format double density floppies to > single density and it works great because I did it". B.S. - a little > education and you'd see why it's precarious. I've seen people who > argue about that because they have "proof it works fine". Just wait > till a few months go by and their data doesn't appear anymore :) Not > that software raid doesn't work, it does, and quite well. But all I'm > saying is a better argument might sway me. That one doesn't. Well this is only one data point :-) but I've been using software RAID on production servers for at least 15 years (and maybe a little longer) and I have _never_ lost data due to software failures. Of course, this software raid is called VMS Volume Shadowing..... In theory, software RAID1 could be better than hardware RAID as the operating system has a better knowledge of what's happening (and about to happen) whereas the hardware just "duplicates blocks". I'd also want to be absolutely sure that in all circumstances that should the hardware controller fail that I still get data off (and on) without needing another RAID controller. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 07:00:11 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Looking for Astounding Arcade Games For Your Spectrum+ & Spectrum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6404101205006919c2c6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:12 -0700 (PDT), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm looking for the book ASTOUNDING ARCADE GAMES FOR YOUR SPECTRUM+ & > SPECTRUM by David Perry (published by Interface). This would've been > published in the UK (13,000 copies). > > Does anyone know where to locate one? I have a friend who's trying to > find it for some research he's doing. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > Have you tried comp.sys.sinclair ? Also do you have the isbn number, I had a quick look on copc (universities). The have the commodore and Amstrad versions as does amazon but alas not spectrum. Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 12 08:34:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: HP 2621-P terminal References: Message-ID: <003301c4b060$23da13e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ohhhhh yeah, I want it :) Just emailed him and we'll see! Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 2:42 AM Subject: HP 2621-P terminal > > Does anyone want an HP 2621-P terminal? Lawrence has one for you. Please > contact him if interested at . > > Photo: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/carman.html > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From cheri-post at web.de Tue Oct 12 08:44:24 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Onyx C8002: pictures of the boards available now Message-ID: <523885073@web.de> Hello all, thanks to der Mouse, the pictures are available under: ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca/pub/cheri/ If anybody could check out the DIP Switch settings ?? I could verify the status of the LEDs either, if this helps. Just drop in an email. There are two identical memory boards. The one scanned is the first, that's why the two terminators are missing . The other memory board at the end of the bus has these terminators. Switch settings are different, apparently to set an ID. Remember, I have no documentain, but it would be worth to compare the settings of the switches and LEDs with a working unit ! Thanks in advance for any help ! Pierre __________________________________________________________ Mit WEB.DE FreePhone mit hoechster Qualitaet ab 0 Ct./Min. weltweit telefonieren! http://freephone.web.de/?mc=021201 From maillist at komoko.com Tue Oct 12 08:45:42 2004 From: maillist at komoko.com (maillist@komoko.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED: Onyx C8002: pictures of the boards available now In-Reply-To: <523885073@web.de> References: <523885073@web.de> Message-ID: <200410121345.i9CDjgHk021837@host.cdnsites.com> Your message could not be delivered. The User is out of space. Please try to send your message again at a later time. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 09:25:33 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <3BA046B0-1C43-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.a u> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <3BA046B0-1C43-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041012092419.0be0ec08@pc> Has anyone mentioned that if the OS or hardware or horrid software goes astray and writes crap all over the disk, RAID doesn't save you but the 'periodic rsync' approach does? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 12 09:57:24 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041012092419.0be0ec08@pc> Message-ID: >>> Has anyone mentioned that if the OS or hardware or horrid >>> software goes astray and writes crap all over the disk, >>> RAID doesn't save you but the 'periodic rsync' approach does? >>> >>> - John I would be inclined to phrase that as "May" save you, rather than "Will". On the other hand, if there is any failure of the primary between "rsync's", then the secondary WILL be incomplete (or otherwise wrong) and content WILL be effected. Again...it is a matter of tradeoffs. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 12 10:04:17 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <416BF271.2090201@sbcglobal.net> David V. Corbin wrote: >>>>Has anyone mentioned that if the OS or hardware or horrid >>>>software goes astray and writes crap all over the disk, >>>>RAID doesn't save you but the 'periodic rsync' approach does? >>>> >>>>- John > > > I would be inclined to phrase that as "May" save you, rather than "Will". > > On the other hand, if there is any failure of the primary between "rsync's", > then the secondary WILL be incomplete (or otherwise wrong) and content WILL > be effected. > > Again...it is a matter of tradeoffs. > > Of course, you could always combine RAID (either HW or SW) and the rsync approach. Space and money permitting, of course -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 12 10:05:30 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041012092419.0be0ec08@pc> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <3BA046B0-1C43-11D9-8F00-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> <6.1.2.0.2.20041012092419.0be0ec08@pc> Message-ID: <1097593530.27596.58.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 09:25 -0500, John Foust wrote: > Has anyone mentioned that if the OS or hardware or horrid software goes > astray and writes crap all over the disk, RAID doesn't save you > but the 'periodic rsync' approach does? It's only as good as any other backup strategy though; it'll only give you live data up until the last rsync was done. RAID's more for keeping critical data on-line even in the event of failure. As I said earlier, only Jay can decide what hardware and what level of redundancy is needed. However, *if* the websites hosted on the classicmp server are being done so for free, I'd be tempted to say that they're not under any kind of support deal or service guarantee, *and* that the authors would be expected to have their own backups of their particular site. In other words, put that data in a non-RAID environment, and if a disk blows up then it'll knock the site(s) out until another disk is brought on-line and the data either restored from Jay's own backup or from indivial backups of the site owners. The mailing list (including the list archives) is another matter - there I'd be inclined to say that system failsafe ability and uptime is more important, and that the data there is more critical. This is particularly true for the mailing list config and archives - if the list goes down for a short while it's less of an issue. This is all assuming that the mailing list is the primary function of the classiccmp server, of course... Splitting the problem into two this way might be a sensible choice, though. Small amount of RAID storage for mailing list functions and application data, and a large amount of non-RAID disk for other data (such as bitsavers mirror). cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 12 10:17:07 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Systems Message-ID: <200410121517.IAA02592@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > ---snip--- Maybe this >will be the kick in the ... seat :) to get me going and backing up all >the Polymorphic disks (8" and 5 1/4" totaling probably a couple of >hundred disks) including source code and documentation for their >products. Hi Marvin If you get a machine running, I'll write some software, similar to what I have on the H89 to transfer entire disk images. That will make archiving easier. I sent a message to Bob Bybee to see if he knew anything about the other front panels. He was the editor for the Poly News. Also, while digging through stuff, did you happen to come on an extra serial interface card. I have a Poly88 that is sadly without one. Later Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 12 10:20:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Systems Message-ID: <200410121520.IAA02616@clulw009.amd.com> Oops! Bob Bybee was the editor of the PolyLetter, not PolyNews. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 12:41:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Anyone got a PC Server with P/390 card? Message-ID: I have a friend looking for an IBM PC Server (see specific models below) with a P/390 card and OS to play around with. Has anyone got one for trade? He's not in a position to shell out cash but he is in a position to trade you something tasty in return. If you've got anything, please contact me directly and I'll put you in touch with said friend. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 16:11:03 GMT To: sellam@vintage.org Subject: IBM Warez Hey Sellam, The IBM things I am looking for are: PC Server 500 (8641-MYF) with p/390 card + p/390 software PC Server 520 (8641-MD2) with p/390 card + p/390 software PC Server 320 (8640-MYR) with p/390 card + p/390 software PC Server 330 (8640-ES2) with p/390 card + p/390 software PC Server 330 (8640-PB0) with p/390 card + p/390 software Or Heaven Forbid someone has an S/390 Integrated Server they don't need (if I see them come in for recycling I figure it's ok to ask people for :P ) I can't believe I let an Integrated Server AND a pc server 500 with p/390 slip by me at the old warehouse. Arrrggghhh. -chris From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 12 13:25:13 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: ICL Quattro monitor needed in the UK Message-ID: Hi folks, Had a mail from someone in the UK who's looking for said monitor since his has died and the system it's connected to is still in use for archive stuff. Writeups for the machine suggest that any monitor could be used but I asked him to forward some pictures and it's not a standard monitor - the keyboard plugs into it as well as there being 2x DB25 serial connectors for inputs (and I guess outputs for the keyboard).. If anyone's got a spare he's called John Charters and he's at jcharters@inductotherm.co.uk. I can forward on the pictures he's sent if it'll be of any help. Ta! -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 12 13:33:58 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? Message-ID: <20041012183357.PSKA14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >My guess is that it's not talking properly to the 1793 disk controller >chip. I have had this chip fail :-(. But you might start by checking the >power supply (there's a second PSU board in disk units, mounted on the >side of the drive tower, which supplies the disk controller board and >drives). And then check and re-check that ribbon cable. I have determined that it is indeed the 1793 disk controller chip ... I borrowed one from another system, and as soon as I powered up, I heard the floppy seek to track 0 - stuffed in a boot disk and it booted right up... I agree :-( .. I don't have a spare 1793. Does anyone have an extra Western Digital 1793 (or compatible) FDC kicking around? Bare on on a board (I've got a good desoldering station) ??? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 12 13:34:01 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: LF: Western Digital 1793 or compatible FDC chip Message-ID: <20041012183400.PSKS14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I have determined that the problem with my TRS-80 Model IV is a bad disk controller chip... Unfortunately I don't have a spare - does anyone here have an extra Western Digital 1793 (or compatible) FDC chip? I have no trouble sucking it off of a board if necessary. Am located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada, but will pay shipping costs from "most anywhere". Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 12 14:01:51 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? In-Reply-To: <20041012183357.PSKA14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041012150017.00b047b8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave Dunfield may have mentioned these words: >[snip] I agree :-( .. I don't have a spare 1793. > >Does anyone have an extra Western Digital 1793 (or compatible) FDC >kicking around? Bare on on a board (I've got a good desoldering >station) ??? www.bgmicro.com -- Page 8 of their catalog, $4.49 each. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch@30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Oct 12 14:26:43 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: Anyone got a PC Server with P/390 card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410121226.43371.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Sellam, If you want to run MVS on a emulated S/390 use what IBM uses for Marketing Mainframe middleware: http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/ This package is very cool. As a mainframe person, I can run MVS on my laptop running TSO, etc. There are links to download MVS, etc. Cheers, Lyle On Tuesday 12 October 2004 10:41, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have a friend looking for an IBM PC Server (see specific models below) > with a P/390 card and OS to play around with. > > Has anyone got one for trade? He's not in a position to shell out cash > but he is in a position to trade you something tasty in return. > > If you've got anything, please contact me directly and I'll put you in > touch with said friend. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 12 14:31:35 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Where's IDE these days relative to SCSI? Very, very good. Except for really demanding jobs, which mail and ftp archive is not, SCSI is a waste of money. > SCSI controllers > (RAID or otherwise) were always better than IDE - plus you get the > higher reliability, more flexible bus options etc. Times change! Drives are far cheaper; >> reliability may still exist in SCSI, but it's not been borne out in my experience. > > If you've got a 100Mbit ether, it's unlikely it will exceed > > the disk or OS speed. > > Not so convinced about that - remember that's bits, not bytes; ethernet > isn't *that* fast (relative to other things). (I think you misread this -- without special preparation, you'll never get > 25 - 50 Mbits/sec through it; that's 5 megabytes/sec peak. But even this is a false measure; it's not realistic or practical to size a system by the very tip of peak performance requirements. More empirical tests are appropriate: how long does it ACTUALLY take to explode mail? What portion of that is spent on-disk? (My guess, from actually working with giant mailers, is 90% of the time is spent on the net tied up in TCP-open waits!) > As for mirroring to a seperate machine (if that's what you were > intending) then disk performance should easily outstrip network > bandwidth Even a fair EIDE system on a modern machine will keep 100megabit ether 100% soaked 100% of the time if you're just copying data over a wire. But rarely is that how files are moved, and certainly not over the open internet! > (and could probably upset the underlying mail software whilst > mirroring was taking place) - I simply don't believe this. This is what OS's *do*. Or maybe I misread this. Temp files disappear during backups all the time, it's rarely a problem (occasional "file disappeared!" in the log). > I'd go for a seperate ethernet link > between machines just for mirroring purposes in that case. Utter waste of time. It could improve stopwatch times to complete a mirror; but who cares unless the time is significant? This is what computers *are for*, to do drudgery. If you've got the ethernet on board, by all means, but otherwise it's a waste without an actual need. Unless you have a tightly-specified problem and constraints, it's best to solve problems when the occur. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 12 15:08:32 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Subject: RE: classiccmp server hardware > >>> Has anyone mentioned that if the OS or hardware or horrid > >>> software goes astray and writes crap all over the disk, > >>> RAID doesn't save you but the 'periodic rsync' approach does? > I would be inclined to phrase that as "May" save you, rather than "Will". Absoluetely -- it's even possible for rsync to propagate data loss! (--delete) But the very top of the pile of reasons for data loss is human error, and a simple "recent copy" solves 99% of that. There is no single system that solves all problems. Since complexity often causes humans to make more mistakes, and inherently decreases MTBF, and costs more, simplicity is usually most optimum (sic), barring other EXPLICIT constraints. * At work (university computer lab) I have students with home dirs (many files, various sizes) and video projects (few files, HUGE). Major worry: student foolishness, second worry, other human data loss, tertiary, the usual (hardware failure, etc). Long-term archiving not needed. Heterogenous network (pc, mac, linux). My solution here is two servers, weewee and fluffy, both terabyte RAID5 (serial ATA, 3ware, SuSE 9.0) 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM. Weewee runs SAMBA, mounts homes and video home. UPS with software support. It also runs an rsync/cp -a script that generates rotating hourly snapshots of everything (except video); students can recover files hour by hour. Fluffy takes a daily snapshot of weewee, and rotates that once per day, and maintains the last 10? days of data. There is no off-line backup. Various desktop machines backup into weewee also, get rotated, etc. Weewee and fluffy have a private gigabit ethernet with crossover cable; copying video data can take 10 - 300 minutes via cron. Who cares? Cheap ($3K/server) nearly zero maintenance. Load average rarely exceeds .1. * At home everything exists on my laptop, including wps.com. Major worries: support fancy data-dispersion scripts, human data loss, last, hardware. Rsync "mirroring" between three (soon four) net-wide machines. Paper copies. Occasional CDRs mailed to friends. Archiving back to 1994 (sporadic). From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 12 15:37:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Tom Jennings wrote: >>> But the very top of the pile of reasons for data loss is human error, >>> and a simple "recent copy" solves 99% of that. >>> Unless of course, the error is not detected until the next overwrite. I typically handle 5-10 "disaster recovery" situations a year where the client has backup procedures in place. If you exclude crash type failures [system running fine then dead], and just look at the "I lost some information that I need back", the backups are almost always worthless since they rotated through the entire set since the problem acctually occurred. Assuming an "rsync" approach is usedl, there would presummable be only one set. At a minimum, I like to see a pyrimad set that is either a daily binary progression, or at least a calendar unit pyrimid. David. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 12 15:40:03 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost of shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? I'd like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. tnx! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Oct 12 15:40:46 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041012204046.GA18334@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 01:40:03PM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: > I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost of > shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? I'd > like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. There were VAXBI SCSI cards available at one time, but I have never used one, and I can't recall the vendor's name. My recollection was that MSRP was $10K for either MSCP _or_ TMSCP, $20K for the firmware that did both. I'd love one, but I think you'd just about have to find a machine that already had one inside. I _think_ they were never popular because people typically had a cluster and HSC storage boxes or locally attached disk on a KDB50 (my 8200 came (to my employer) used in 1989 for about $12K w/KDB50 and we threw on an old RA81). Last thing I did to it was try to get either a DEBNI or DEBNT working. No dice. It was enough months ago that I forget what was up. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Oct-2004 20:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -45 F (-42.8 C) Windchill -81.2 F (-62.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.6 kts Grid 027 Barometer 680.2 mb (10619. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 12 15:37:51 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1097613471.27596.91.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 12:31 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Where's IDE these days relative to SCSI? > > Very, very good. Except for really demanding jobs, which mail > and ftp archive is not, SCSI is a waste of money. mail can be extremely disk-intensive (depending on message volume) surely? > > SCSI controllers > > (RAID or otherwise) were always better than IDE - plus you get the > > higher reliability, more flexible bus options etc. > > Times change! Drives are far cheaper; >> reliability may still > exist in SCSI, but it's not been borne out in my experience. yes the drives are cheaper; but I was asking about the performance more than anything - I pretty much lost touch with IDE 5 years ago apart from a handful of machines, so I don't know where it's at in terms of performance under load (in a real scenario, forget marketing hype! :-) Reliability's a tricky one. Historically I've had both IDE and SCSI disks go bad in desktop environments (i.e. lots of power cycling and less of a controlled dust-free environment), but I've only ever seen IDE disks completely blow up in the servers I've known that happened to have IDE disks rather than SCSI. Maybe that was just luck of the draw, though. > > > If you've got a 100Mbit ether, it's unlikely it will exceed > > > the disk or OS speed. > > > > Not so convinced about that - remember that's bits, not bytes; ethernet > > isn't *that* fast (relative to other things). > > (I think you misread this -- without special preparation, > you'll never get > 25 - 50 Mbits/sec through it; that's 5 > megabytes/sec peak. My point was only that if you rsync to a disk on a different machine over ethernet (as I thought you were suggesting, but I could well be wrong!) then you do risk saturating the link at the time of the rsync, which I'd assume *could* lead to mail message transfer problems. > Even a fair EIDE system on a modern machine will keep 100megabit > ether 100% soaked 100% of the time if you're just copying > data over a wire. But rarely is that how files are moved, > and certainly not over the open internet! I probably did misunderstand your rsync comment then :-) > Unless you have a tightly-specified problem and constraints, > it's best to solve problems when the occur. Some problems, sure - but surely things like disk failure are an anticipated problem that's guaranteed to occur at some point, and if you *want* a server with near-perfect uptime then that needs planning for? Again, it depends on the requirements, and in this case only Jay can decide those... cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 12 15:54:15 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>> But the very top of the pile of reasons for data loss is human error, > >>> and a simple "recent copy" solves 99% of that. > Unless of course, the error is not detected until the next overwrite. I > typically handle 5-10 "disaster recovery" situations a year where the client > has backup procedures in place. If you exclude crash type failures [system > running fine then dead], and just look at the "I lost some information that > I need back", the backups are almost always worthless since they rotated > through the entire set since the problem acctually occurred. Oh and I've made that very mistake many times, which is why I've become personally very paranoid about it! (The propagated backup error is what caused me to lose all my work in 1994.) It's really hard to do backups right. Or, easy, but usually succumbs to "security guard syndrome", you get number & lazy. > >>> and a simple "recent copy" solves 99% of that. ...assumes you actually have one! But the context here was a mail archive, so pyramidal data isn't needed for that part, since it's just a grow. > Assuming an "rsync" approach is usedl, there would presummable be only one > set. At a minimum, I like to see a pyrimad set that is either a daily binary > progression, or at least a calendar unit pyrimid. I use rsync and cp -a to create a rotating hard-link full-snapshot backups on the university servers; 400GB of homedir junk grows only about 5%. It prevents rm -r * type data loss; if there's a bad sector under the underlying inode's data it's total loss -- but that's what RAID5 and dual-server is for. With my oh-so-clever script system I use now, rsync --delete is very dangerous (I do it only manually), and I've just last week had to drag my entire music collection back down to the home machine (duh). I'm right-now working on making it a lot smarter to punt the whole process if there's a discrepancy. They all require vigilance! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 12 16:12:41 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20041012204046.GA18334@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > There were VAXBI SCSI cards available at one time, but I have never > used one, and I can't recall the vendor's name. My recollection was > that MSRP was $10K for either MSCP _or_ TMSCP, $20K for the firmware > that did both. > I've since been told it has DSSI and some kind of SCSI adapter, so it looks like I'll be able to use SCSI drives with it. It only has 384MB of RAM so if I get it I'll want to bump that up if I can get it cheap. Will VMS 5.2 work on it? That's the newest version I have (on TK50 tapes I think). > I _think_ they were never popular because people typically had a cluster > and HSC storage boxes or locally attached disk on a KDB50 (my 8200 came > (to my employer) used in 1989 for about $12K w/KDB50 and we threw on an > old RA81). > The 8250 I had I bought from Mannesman-Tally here in Kent. $500 and I had to de-install it myself. It was a fun machine. I had no business putting it in the upstairs of my house though. Especially with four RA81s. > Last thing I did to it was try to get either a DEBNI or DEBNT working. > No dice. It was enough months ago that I forget what was up. This machine does have a DEBNA(?) ethernet card in it, so if I get it, at least I can put it on the net for others to play with. :) g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 12 16:08:57 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <1097613471.27596.91.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <1097613471.27596.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: re: IDE > yes the drives are cheaper; but I was asking about the performance more > than anything - I pretty much lost touch with IDE 5 years ago apart from > a handful of machines, so I don't know where it's at in terms of > performance under load (in a real scenario, forget marketing hype! :-) Good. I don't look much at performance specs, but performance in place. On the whole a good EIDE layout (eg. one drive per controller) is as good as anything. > Reliability's a tricky one. Historically I've had both IDE and SCSI > disks go bad in desktop environments (i.e. lots of power cycling and > less of a controlled dust-free environment), but I've only ever seen IDE > disks completely blow up in the servers I've known that happened to have > IDE disks rather than SCSI. Maybe that was just luck of the draw, > though. I'm guessing, but it might be a version of 'derate for reliability'; most SCSI drives don't approach the bytes/spindle that IDE drives do. Maybe it's simply NEW 20gb drives are more reliable than NEW 160gb drives for various mfgr reasons. > > you'll never get > 25 - 50 Mbits/sec through it; that's 5 > > megabytes/sec peak. > > My point was only that if you rsync to a disk on a different machine > over ethernet (as I thought you were suggesting, but I could well be > wrong!) then you do risk saturating the link at the time of the rsync, > which I'd assume *could* lead to mail message transfer problems. Oh, got it now, I agree 100% -- a big 'data copy' (rsync, whatever) will certainly bog the line. But it won't cause mail transfer problems, but mail transfer delays, lower overall throughput. TCP/IP is quite robust, and SMTP is reeeeeeeaallly well tested! Where is it required that a computer have 100% free unfettered access for each and every process for each and every second? If backups take 30 minutes of the day, I say BFD (YMMV). If it's taking 4 hours there may be a problem, but really, CPUs are not sentient, they don't care if they work hard 100% of the time (barring heat removal :-) > Some problems, sure - but surely things like disk failure are an > anticipated problem that's guaranteed to occur at some point, and if you > *want* a server with near-perfect uptime then that needs planning for? Oh I want it all too, I'm just not willing to pay for it :-) Seriously, between an average well-run PC box and a high-end RAID server, we're not talking orders of magnitude improvement. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 12 16:39:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: BIG! TK70 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006190341.02b95258@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: They revised the information. And Canceled the auction.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:07 PM >>> To: cctalk >>> Subject: BIG! TK70 >>> >>> >>> "Digital Electronics Model TK70 10/20 gb Internal DLT Tape >>> Drive w/ mounting rails and 5 Tapes. " >>> >>> I'd like to see the size of them tapes! >>> And they tested it too!! >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39978 >>> &item=5129239275&rd=1 >>> >>> (TK70 holds maybe 290MB per cartridge) >>> >>> Nice link to DEC tape history... >>> >>> http://learning.quantum.com/demo/history.htm >>> >>> >>> Ed K. >>> From thompson at new.rr.com Tue Oct 12 16:35:06 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Gene Buckle wrote: > I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost of > shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? I'd > like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. Other options: If it has CI you can use a HSJ CI -> SCSI controller If it has DSSI you can use HSD DSSI -> SCSI controller I have observed these for reasonable prices on Ebay. The CI solution you would need a star coupler as well, if you don't have one, which also can be had for small $ but are a pain to ship as they are mostly air in a heavy metal cabinet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 12 16:50:22 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost of > > shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? I'd > > like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. > > Other options: > If it has CI you can use a HSJ CI -> SCSI controller > If it has DSSI you can use HSD DSSI -> SCSI controller > > I have observed these for reasonable prices on Ebay. > The CI solution you would need a star coupler as well, if you don't have > one, which also can be had for small $ but are a pain to ship as they are > mostly air in a heavy metal cabinet. > Thanks for the info. It turns out that it has the DSSI -> SCSI option. I don't know what kind of drives are in the second cabinet though. I'm wondering if it would be possible to add more cpu boards to this beast... g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Oct 12 16:42:34 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: BIG! TK70 In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041006190341.02b95258@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041012173834.03358cd0@192.168.0.1> At 05:39 PM 10/12/2004, you wrote: >They revised the information. And Canceled the auction.... Yeah, I sent them a note asking for a picture of those "whopper tape cartridges" they must have been using and the link. They appreciated it. Some folks on eBay don't have any sense of humor about those things. Ed K. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Oct 12 16:46:42 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <20041012204046.GA18334@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20041012214642.GA25260@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 02:12:41PM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've since been told it has DSSI and some kind of SCSI adapter, so it > looks like I'll be able to use SCSI drives with it. Handy. I have zero experience with DSSI. I did own an R400X(?) DSSI cab, but I gave it to a fellow list member in town (2 miles from my house) because I had no controllers that could talk to it (it was mostly full of multi-gig 5.25" drives - RF74s?) I've heard of DSSI<->SCSI adapters. They sound like a good solution for systems that are DSSI-only. > It only has 384MB of RAM so if I get it I'll want to bump that up if > I can get it cheap. *cough* OK... if you say so... I'm happy to have 16MB in my 8200, and I'd be happier if it weren't on 5 cards! (2MB and 4MB) Unless you plan to run some monster stuff or a *lot* of simultaneous users, a VAX (as opposed to an Alpha) VMS system should be happy with a lot less than what you already have. We used to run 20-30 simultaneous users (out of 60-70 at the company) on an 11/750 w/8MB (VMS 5.5-2), and it didn't swap. Pre-6.x versions of VMS, especially on VAXen, work fine with "small" amounts of memory. > Will VMS 5.2 work on it? That's the newest version I have (on TK50 > tapes I think). Not sure what the oldest version of VMS you can use is, but if I had to guess, I'd say there's a chance that you need a slightly newer version. Not guaranteed, but it's possible. We never had hardware that new, so this is a fuzzy area for me. My experience is solidly in the 11/750 and 11/730 era, with some 8200 and 8530 time. I then didn't do much until Alphas reigned. I kinda missed the 6xxx era. Similarly, I have lots of 4.0 -> 5.5-2 experience, some 6.x, and a bit of 7.2 experience, due to where I've worked and what's running in my basement. > The 8250 I had I bought from Mannesman-Tally here in Kent. $500 and I had > to de-install it myself. It was a fun machine. I had no business putting > it in the upstairs of my house though. Especially with four RA81s. Ooph! My 8200/8300 is in the basement, along with one RA81, and a TU80 (which I'd be using if I could get my DWBUA working). > This machine does have a DEBNA(?) ethernet card in it, so if I get it, at > least I can put it on the net for others to play with. :) You might want to consider a newer version of VMS, then. I don't have any experience with TCP/IP on pre-OpenVMS 7.x, but I know VMS 5.x didn't come with anything except DECnet. There were several options back in the day for VMS 5.x machines, but at work then, we never went with any of them (we made SNA and Bisync hardware/software ourselves, so we just used our own products in a point-to-point HASP network to move stuff around on the machines that didn't happen to have DDCMP serial cards and DECnet). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Oct-2004 21:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -44.6 F (-42.6 C) Windchill -78.3 F (-61.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.8 kts Grid 031 Barometer 679.4 mb (10647. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 12 17:00:14 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:49:59 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ae01c4b0a6$da4c4df0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Thanks for the info. It turns out that it has the DSSI -> > SCSI option. I That probably means an XMI DSSI adapter (KFMSA) and an HSD controller (or controllers) that do the DSSI<->SCSI part. > don't know what kind of drives are in the second cabinet though. I'm > wondering if it would be possible to add more cpu boards to > this beast... You can have up to 6 cpus in there (that would be a VAX 6000-660): the limitation (other than finding the CPU boards) will be how many slots are free. That will probably depend on which memory boards you have. 384MB suggests 1x256MB + 1x128MB or 3x128MB. My recollection is that this class of machine benefits from memory interleave, so 2N memory boards of the same type is generally better. You can get up to 1GB in the machine, but to have support for that you will need OpenVMS V6.0 or later. Minimum OS support is V5.5 but you should be able to get hobbyist licences and media from montagar.com easily enough. (Or maybe someone here can supply the media as an ISO or whatever). I'd suggest that you lean towards OpenVMS V7.2 or V7.3 to start with - V5.5 is old enough that help may be a little harder to come by (in particular, remembering "gotchas" from that far back can be challenging!). You mentioned a DEBNI (or DEBNA or DEBNT). I forget the differences between all these boards (i.e. which were the worst, which differ only in microcode and which support a tape) but a DEMNA (XMI ethernet) would be the ideal (at the expense of an XMI slot though). Having said that, at 10Mbps, it probably makes little difference. (Except the DEMNA was probably less buggy than the others!) There is much VAX 6000 family information on the net. "VAX 6000" fed into http://vt100.net/manx/ should provide plenty of reading for a while. One last point, you can (should you wish to for fun) probably get older VAX 6000 series boards running in that chassis. The procedure is described in the various upgrade manuals (although you would be going the other way!) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 12 17:21:29 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20041012214642.GA25260@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > > It only has 384MB of RAM so if I get it I'll want to bump that up if > > I can get it cheap. > > *cough* OK... if you say so... I'm happy to have 16MB in my 8200, and > I'd be happier if it weren't on 5 cards! (2MB and 4MB) Unless you > plan to run some monster stuff or a *lot* of simultaneous users, a > VAX (as opposed to an Alpha) VMS system should be happy with a lot > less than what you already have. > I didn't realize that. I'm used to the "there's no such thing as too much RAM" rule. :) > > The 8250 I had I bought from Mannesman-Tally here in Kent. $500 and I had > > to de-install it myself. It was a fun machine. I had no business putting > > it in the upstairs of my house though. Especially with four RA81s. > > Ooph! My 8200/8300 is in the basement, along with one RA81, and a TU80 > (which I'd be using if I could get my DWBUA working). > I had the TU81+ tape drive for it as well. I cussed a blue streak when I found the 50+lb steel balance plate in the bottom of the cabinet. AFTER we lugged it up the staircase. We couldn't figure out how to safely remove the drive from the cabinet so we popped the sides off and hauled it up. Damn near killed us both. :) > You might want to consider a newer version of VMS, then. I don't have any > experience with TCP/IP on pre-OpenVMS 7.x, but I know VMS 5.x didn't come > with anything except DECnet. There were several options back in the day for > VMS 5.x machines, but at work then, we never went with any of them (we made > SNA and Bisync hardware/software ourselves, so we just used our own products > in a point-to-point HASP network to move stuff around on the machines that > didn't happen to have DDCMP serial cards and DECnet). > It's been too long since I've looked at those tapes. The version I have is not "5.2", but "5-5.2". Regardless, I suppose I'm going to need a new version of OpenVMS for it. Will the old PAKs I have for v5 work with newer versions? g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 17:14:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Need 3-4 Psion Series 5 handhelds for VCF Message-ID: I'm in need of 3-4 Psion Series 5 for the upcoming VCF. They're to be used as portable terminals for the judges to use in scoring exhibits. I'm trying to source them for under US$50 each. eBay has been OK and I've gotten a couple from there already but most keep going for over $50 each and my budget won't allow me to go higher. Does anyone have any for sale, or know of where I can get some for under US$50? I don't care if they are ugly or if certain non-critical parts are broken (i.e. broken doors, latches, etc.) As long as it powers up, the screen works, and the CF slot works then I'll be happy (of course I'll want to pay less for such units). Ideas? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 12 17:33:01 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: <00ae01c4b0a6$da4c4df0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: > There is much VAX 6000 family information on the > net. "VAX 6000" fed into http://vt100.net/manx/ > should provide plenty of reading for a while. > Thanks for the info Antonio. That website is amazing. :) I hope I can get the machine - my problem is my breaking point is about $150 for shipping and it's currently living in Conneticut. We'll see how much of a deal they can get me and how bad they want it gone. Damn, now I'm missing the orange wall I used to have. *sigh* g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 12 17:58:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Need 3-4 Psion Series 5 handhelds for VCF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Revo or Revo+ would also work as well. Also, the Ohio Scientific Osaris, as long as it includes OPL. > I'm in need of 3-4 Psion Series 5 for the upcoming VCF. They're to be > used as portable terminals for the judges to use in scoring exhibits. I'm > trying to source them for under US$50 each. eBay has been OK and I've > gotten a couple from there already but most keep going for over $50 each > and my budget won't allow me to go higher. > > Does anyone have any for sale, or know of where I can get some for under > US$50? I don't care if they are ugly or if certain non-critical parts are > broken (i.e. broken doors, latches, etc.) As long as it powers up, the > screen works, and the CF slot works then I'll be happy (of course I'll > want to pay less for such units). > > Ideas? > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 12 20:40:40 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net> <007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP> <1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <1097613471.27596.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200410130148.VAA19182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Oh, got it now, I agree 100% -- a big 'data copy' (rsync, whatever) > will certainly bog the line. If you do it all at once, at least. I have "live" mirroring of my disks - all disk writes are mirrored over the net in real time to images on a big backup drive on another machine. (Or near-real-time, if the writer is producing data faster than the mirroring can deal with it - the software goes to some lengths to handle that case well.) It doesn't cause load problems in normal use because the network load it imposes is spread out throughout the day, becoming visible only when doing a data transfer over the net to disk from a source that can run the network at least half-wide-open. (Yes, I know it's not a comprehensive backup solution. It doesn't deal with "oops, I didn't mean to delete that file", or "now what was in this file last May?", but it's not intended to; it's designed to defend against "this disk spindle just went casters-up", and it does that very well. I've had two disk deaths since I started doing it, and it did its job perfectly each time.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 12 21:08:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: <200410130148.VAA19182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >>> der Mouse Wrote: >>> >>> I have "live" mirroring of my disks - all disk writes are >>> mirrored over the net in real time to images on a big >>> backup drive on another machine. (Or near-real-time, if >>> the writer is producing data faster than the mirroring can >>> deal with it - the software goes to some lengths to handle >>> that case well.) It doesn't cause load problems in normal >>> use because the network load it imposes is spread out >>> throughout the day, becoming visible only when doing a data >>> transfer over the net to disk from a source that can run >>> the network at least half-wide-open. Just out of curiousity... Is this done on a file by file basis [i.e. if the file is changed, the file is copied...], or some other more granular means? I ask because most of my data operations involve many relatively small writes to varying sections of very large files. Thanks for the info... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 12 21:08:20 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410130213.WAA19458@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I have "live" mirroring of my disks - all disk writes are mirrored >> over the net in real time to [backup images elsewhere]. > Just out of curiousity... Is this done on a file by file basis [i.e. > if the file is changed, the file is copied...], or some other more > granular means? Disk-block granularity. It's done with hooks in the disk drivers; it's completely filesystem-blind. > I ask because most of my data operations involve many relatively > small writes to varying sections of very large files. If it involves writing to few disk blocks, it would mean little data copied over the net under my scheme. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 12 21:23:01 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: <20041011103840.42cf4ed0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><6.1.2.0.0.20041011192653.0394ecd0@pop.freeserve.net><007801c4aff9$7662cb00$463510ac@HPLAPTOP><1097575794.27581.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <1097613471.27596.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003e01c4b0cb$901c9b20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >> > Where's IDE these days relative to SCSI? >> >> Very, very good. Except for really demanding jobs, which mail >> and ftp archive is not, SCSI is a waste of money. I haven't checked recently... but last time I did SCSI drives had a lot more bandwidth than IDE drives. Same old problem. > mail can be extremely disk-intensive (depending on message volume) > surely? Mail (at least large queues) is very disk intensive. Jay From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 12 23:36:48 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Need 3-4 Psion Series 5 handhelds for VCF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041013043648.54533.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> LOL, I never bothered to get one, or else I'd be happy to loan it to you. But you can borrow my Psion Organiser 1 :) --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The Revo or Revo+ would also work as well. Also, the Ohio Scientific > Osaris, as long as it includes OPL. > > > I'm in need of 3-4 Psion Series 5 for the upcoming VCF. They're to be > > used as portable terminals for the judges to use in scoring exhibits. I'm > > trying to source them for under US$50 each. eBay has been OK and I've > > gotten a couple from there already but most keep going for over $50 each > > and my budget won't allow me to go higher. > > > > Does anyone have any for sale, or know of where I can get some for under > > US$50? I don't care if they are ugly or if certain non-critical parts are > > broken (i.e. broken doors, latches, etc.) As long as it powers up, the > > screen works, and the CF slot works then I'll be happy (of course I'll > > want to pay less for such units). > > > > Ideas? > > > > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 570 readers and counting! From aek at spies.com Tue Oct 12 23:49:05 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: MIT CADR simulation (for the uber nerds..) Message-ID: <20041013044905.9DB703CA7@spies.com> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lispmachines/message/116 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 12 17:23:32 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041013002332.3734b6e1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 13:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Gene Buckle wrote: > I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost > of shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? If it has DSSI you can use a HSDxy SCSI-to-DSSI hardware RAID adapter to convert cheap SCSI disks to a (bunch of) logical DSSI disks. > I'd like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. What is wrong with a RA9x? You can mount two of them in the bottom of a VAX6k. There are also CI-to-SCSI HSC solutions... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cheri-post at web.de Wed Oct 13 03:10:43 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Onyx C8002: pictures of the boards available now (FTP) Message-ID: <524691633@web.de> Hello all, thanks to der Mouse, the pictures are available under: ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca/pub/cheri/ If anybody could check out the DIP Switch settings ?? I could verify the status of the LEDs either, if this helps. Just drop in an email. There are two identical memory boards. The one scanned is the first, that's why the two terminators are missing . The other memory board at the end of the bus has these terminators. Switch settings are different, apparently to set an ID. Remember, I have no documentain, but it would be worth to compare the settings of the switches and LEDs with a working unit ! Thanks in advance for any help ! Pierre ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 From maillist at komoko.com Wed Oct 13 03:13:15 2004 From: maillist at komoko.com (maillist@komoko.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: MESSAGE NOT DELIVERED: Onyx C8002: pictures of the boards available now (FTP) In-Reply-To: <524691633@web.de> References: <524691633@web.de> Message-ID: <200410130813.i9D8DFOW024727@host.cdnsites.com> Your message could not be delivered. The User is out of space. Please try to send your message again at a later time. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 13 03:46:33 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: finding the right name for a connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <416CEB69.8010409@gjcp.net> chris wrote: > Yes, many many hits, alas none that say what the connector is. They are > all how to hack in an ATX power supply, but they all expect you to have a > connector you can salvage from a dead iMac... I lack that part. So I'm > trying to track down what this thing is called, so I can buy a > replacement. Remove the connector, solder on flying leads. Or, just solder the leads to the pins and heatshrink them. Gordon. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 13 08:21:17 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: So Far it's been a GREAT week for the collection Message-ID: <004601c4b127$86c45070$64406b43@66067007> On Monday night I picked up a IBM 029 Keypunch at the airport loading dock that had been donated and shipped from Colorado. Last night I went to give a presentation about the museum and the president of the group I spoke to gave me a Altair 8800 Rev. A. The SN is 220862K and he also gave me 3 Mits cards. On Tuesday I also got a call from a guy wanting to donate some items and will meet with him Thursday evening. Saturday I have to drive about 200 miles from Houston to pick up a complete S/34 with tons of manuals plus a IBM model 548 card interpreter. Lots of new toys to play with. :-) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Oct 13 08:56:47 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: So Far it's been a GREAT week for the collection In-Reply-To: <004601c4b127$86c45070$64406b43@66067007> Message-ID: >>> >>> On Monday night I picked up a IBM 029 Keypunch at the >>> airport loading dock that had been donated and shipped from >>> Colorado. Last night I went to give a presentation about >>> the museum and the president of the group I spoke to gave >>> me a Altair 8800 Rev. A. The SN is 220862K and he also gave >>> me 3 Mits cards. On Tuesday I also got a call from a guy >>> wanting to donate some items and will meet with him >>> Thursday evening. Saturday I have to drive about 200 miles >>> from Houston to pick up a complete S/34 with tons of >>> manuals plus a IBM model 548 card interpreter. Lots of new >>> toys to play with. :-) >>> SHOW OFF!!!! [Congratulations] From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 13 09:05:40 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: VAXBI SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20041013002332.3734b6e1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > > I may (and I emphisize _may_) be getting a VAX 6000/610 for the cost > > of shipping it. Is there a SCSI adapter available for this machine? > If it has DSSI you can use a HSDxy SCSI-to-DSSI hardware RAID adapter to > convert cheap SCSI disks to a (bunch of) logical DSSI disks. > > > I'd like to avoid running RA series drives if I can avoid it. > What is wrong with a RA9x? You can mount two of them in the bottom of a > VAX6k. I realize that. However, I would like to configure it in such a way that it draws as little power as possible. Even an RA90 sucks many times the power that a single 40GB SCSI disk does. :) -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Oct 13 10:13:37 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: DEC 11/93 in BA23 ? Message-ID: Hi all, If there's someone on the list with a MicroPDP-11/93 (meaning, the 11/93 in the BA23 chassis), can you please contact me off-list? I have one, but the "back panel" is missing... I do have the cab kit itself, but that doesn't fit in the regular BA23 backpanel, so the /93 must have had a custom one. I need to see what it looks like :) Thankee, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Oct 13 10:24:27 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: DEC 11/93 in BA23 ? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113337@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Fred, check www.pdp-11.nl and click on the link ?PDP-11/93 in the menu at the left hand side ... that's all I have on this thingie. I don't have it anymore; sold to buy an 11/70 (which I considered a nice swap as I am sort of more UNIBUS-minded). - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred N. van Kempen > Sent: woensdag 13 oktober 2004 17:14 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC 11/93 in BA23 ? > > > Hi all, > > If there's someone on the list with a MicroPDP-11/93 (meaning, the > 11/93 in the BA23 chassis), can you please contact me off-list? > > I have one, but the "back panel" is missing... I do have the cab > kit itself, but that doesn't fit in the regular BA23 backpanel, so > the /93 must have had a custom one. I need to see what it looks > like :) > > Thankee, > > Fred > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) > Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at > http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain > View, CA, USA > From tomj at wps.com Wed Oct 13 13:27:26 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: So Far it's been a GREAT week for the collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >>> On Monday night I picked up a IBM 029 Keypunch at the "picked up"? Owww my back... (sorry) From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 13 13:41:14 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: So Far it's been a GREAT week for the collection References: Message-ID: <00d801c4b154$397da000$64406b43@66067007> Yes, they loaded on the truck with a forklift but I had to unload without any help, it's 240 pounds not counting pallet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: RE: So Far it's been a GREAT week for the collection >> >>> On Monday night I picked up a IBM 029 Keypunch at the > > "picked up"? Owww my back... > > (sorry) > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 13:43:20 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: MIT CADR simulation (for the uber nerds..) In-Reply-To: <20041013044905.9DB703CA7@spies.com> References: <20041013044905.9DB703CA7@spies.com> Message-ID: Best news ever ! I hope the CADR will support ethernet (and tcp/ip, not only chaosnet) so we can build a distributed CADR network over the internet with a central TOPS20 file server ;-) Stephane On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:49:05 -0700 (PDT), Al Kossow wrote: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lispmachines/message/116 > -- Stephane Paris, France. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 13 13:43:22 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Commodore 1280? Message-ID: <425DD4AF.5024326D.0077BA5C@aol.com> Hi, >From Colima Mexico. I am down at my dentist and around the corner is a computer repair shop. On the top shelf is a dirty Commodore 1280 sitting on its side. (Or might it be a 128D?, I seem to remember something like that) What is it? Is it of any interest, enough for me to check it out and try to bring it home on the airplane. Paxton Astoria, Oregon near where St. Helens is erupting now in Colima Mexico where Volcan Colima is erupting. Fun times. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Oct 13 13:45:57 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Commodore 1280? In-Reply-To: <425DD4AF.5024326D.0077BA5C@aol.com> References: <425DD4AF.5024326D.0077BA5C@aol.com> Message-ID: <3053.65.123.179.139.1097693157.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Hmmm, 128D of course is a legit model, which was just a 128 with a 1571 disk drive built in, and the keyboard became separate. If you do a Google image search I'm sure you can find a pic of the 128D --- it looks much like the original Amiga, although it has the 5 1/4" floppy drive (on the front right) and a twist latch to enggage the drive. I'm wondering if he was using a cp/m program for dental records, etc.??? Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO > Hi, >>From Colima Mexico. I am down at my dentist and around the corner is a >> computer repair shop. On the top shelf is a dirty Commodore 1280 sitting >> on its side. (Or might it be a 128D?, I seem to remember something like >> that) > > What is it? Is it of any interest, enough for me to check it out and try > to bring it home on the airplane. > > Paxton > Astoria, Oregon near where St. Helens is erupting > now in > Colima Mexico where Volcan Colima is erupting. > > Fun times. > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 13 15:18:20 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: MIT CADR simulation (for the uber nerds..) In-Reply-To: References: <20041013044905.9DB703CA7@spies.com> Message-ID: <068F783B-1D55-11D9-B9B4-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Is there a website to go see about this? Any websites about the original - (I will google soon) On Oct 13, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > Best news ever ! > I hope the CADR will support ethernet (and tcp/ip, not only chaosnet) > so we can build a distributed CADR network over the internet with a > central TOPS20 file server ;-) > > Stephane > > On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:49:05 -0700 (PDT), Al Kossow > wrote: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lispmachines/message/116 >> > > > -- > Stephane > Paris, France. > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 13 15:24:39 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Request for Reccomendations - Telnet Message-ID: I need a macintosh telnet (either OS X or OS 9 ) to connect to my PDP11 simulator. I have tried the simulator that comes with OS X, and another called iTerm. Both are ok for most stuff but don't work well for vt50dpy, an RSTS system status monitor. This does work well on the HP terminal I have (while its emulating a vt100.) From kurt at k-huhn.com Wed Oct 13 15:59:38 2004 From: kurt at k-huhn.com (Kurt Huhn) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2004, at 4:24 PM, Ron Hudson wrote: > I need a macintosh telnet (either OS X or OS 9 ) to connect to my > PDP11 simulator. I have tried the > simulator that comes with OS X, and another called iTerm. Both are ok > for most stuff but don't work > well for vt50dpy, an RSTS system status monitor. This does work well > on the HP terminal I have (while > its emulating a vt100.) > Have you looked at zterm? It's my favorite for stuff like that. -- Kurt Huhn kurt@k-huhn.com From lists at microvax.org Wed Oct 13 16:13:42 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: BA213 PSU conversion Message-ID: <001101c4b169$c784ad20$0b08a8c0@coffee> Hi I've got a US-version BA213 that I intend to run with two UK PSUs i've got. I think the PSUs are drop-in replacements, but do I need to change the line filter on the bottom-left too, and is there any other 110V-working stuff left in the machine? TIA Alex/melt From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 13 16:26:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Request for Reccomendations - Telnet References: Message-ID: <16749.40348.206000.685172@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> I need a macintosh telnet (either OS X or OS 9 ) to connect to Ron> my PDP11 simulator. I have tried the simulator that comes with Ron> OS X, and another called iTerm. Both are ok for most stuff but Ron> don't work well for vt50dpy, an RSTS system status monitor. This Ron> does work well on the HP terminal I have (while its emulating a Ron> vt100.) You might try firing up X-windows that comes with MAC OS X, then telnet from an xterm window. paul From lists at microvax.org Wed Oct 13 16:49:52 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: BA213 PSU conversion References: <001101c4b169$c784ad20$0b08a8c0@coffee> Message-ID: <000e01c4b16e$920e5bf0$0b08a8c0@coffee> > Hi > > I've got a US-version BA213 that I intend to run with two UK PSUs i've got. > > I think the PSUs are drop-in replacements, but do I need to change the line > filter on the bottom-left too, and is there any other 110V-working stuff > left in the machine? ..and another question - will the wiring harness in the machine cope with the different voltage/current? alex/melt From bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Wed Oct 13 17:55:18 2004 From: bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Brian Foley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: MIT CADR simulation (for the uber nerds..) In-Reply-To: <068F783B-1D55-11D9-B9B4-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20041013044905.9DB703CA7@spies.com> <068F783B-1D55-11D9-B9B4-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 13 Oct 2004, at 21:18, Ron Hudson wrote: > Is there a website to go see about this? > > Any websites about the original - (I will google soon) http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/cadr/index.html Cheers, Brian Foley -- "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft." -- George W Bush, the second Bush/Kerry Presidential debate 2004-Oct-08. From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Thu Oct 14 04:18:33 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: (Fwd) FW: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 References: <20041011232714.3C3333CBB@spies.com> Message-ID: <008f01c4b1ce$cd0b5db0$4601a8c0@ebrius> The Apple version is all over the place (i have a copy...) I once wrote software in that. I'm amazed I managed to code in something so small! ouch! I just banged my head again! "But Schindler is bueno! Senior Burns is El Diablo!" -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:27 AM Subject: Re: (Fwd) FW: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 > > > Sellam, any chance you can get down there to try to talk to > the people about archived versions of the UCSD software? > > From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Thu Oct 14 05:03:17 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Masscomp machines In-Reply-To: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> (Jules Richardson's message of "Sat, 02 Oct 2004 17:38:06 +0000") References: <1096738686.12739.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <0qmzypaa6y.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Jules Richardson writes: > Anyone out there got any info on Masscomp machines (or own one)? I found > one the other day at BP (in something of a sorry state) but info on the > 'net seems pretty scarce. Rumour has it that they ran some flavour of > real-time Unix, and that multi-cpu machines were available - that's > about all the good ol' Internet has to offer, at least according to > Google. Masscomp did indeed make multi-cpu machines, and also had an os called RTU (Real Time Unix). They also had another unix called, I think, OS/32. I don't know which one was used by the multiprocessor boxes. I think the CPUs were mostly 68k's, system bus might have been multibus. They had early successes as graphics/cad workstations, so yes they had mice. Masscomp was bought by Concurrent, so there used to be some info on the concurrent users group web pages at www.ccuruser.org. That seems gone now, but archive.org might help you dig up some old stuff there. I used to help run one at the Columbia U CS dept; I remember that the ethernet card had an 80186 that the OS downloaded a network stack to. I seem to recall a hardcoded 14 or 15-hop limit on the IP stack on the version we had, which confused us for a while when we wondered why the machine would talk to some machines but not others. I believe the owner of vitriol.com may still have a number of operational or nearly-operational masscomps. --akb From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Thu Oct 14 06:31:01 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: ecommerce and shopping carts Message-ID: <0qekk1a64q.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> I got contacted by an attorney looking for prior art on ecommerce and shopping carts, especially web-based stuff; a bunch of lawyers ended up with the OpenMarket patents and is trying to shake everyone down, ala SCO. Amazon, among others, are working on busting the patent. The two early events I know of are: June-July of '94 my company (Bibliobytes/HKS.net) released "OrderBook", which was basically a front end that would let you enter some SKU's and credit card info and would email us an encrypted copy of the order to be processed and fufilled. You got the SKUs from a catalog downloaded seperately from a web page, by ftp, or whatever. Around August 2004, NetMarket, a startup done by four guys from Swarthmore, started selling CDs over the web. Anyone know of any other shopping-cart and/or automatic payment systems that were up and running or publically described before October of '94? --akb From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 14 09:22:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: ecommerce and shopping carts In-Reply-To: <0qekk1a64q.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I got contacted by an attorney looking for prior art on ecommerce and > shopping carts, especially web-based stuff; a bunch of lawyers ended up > with the OpenMarket patents and is trying to shake everyone down, ala > SCO. Amazon, among others, are working on busting the patent. I guess Amazon is trying to make up for it's stupid one-click patent? :) > June-July of '94 my company (Bibliobytes/HKS.net) released > "OrderBook", which was basically a front end that would let you enter > some SKU's and credit card info and would email us an encrypted copy > of the order to be processed and fufilled. You got the SKUs from a > catalog downloaded seperately from a web page, by ftp, or whatever. > > Around August 2004, NetMarket, a startup done by four guys from > Swarthmore, started selling CDs over the web. Wow, I didn't realize e-commerce was being deployed even this early. > Anyone know of any other shopping-cart and/or automatic payment > systems that were up and running or publically described > before October of '94? I've got a few very early web directory books from this timeframe that might shed some light. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Thu Oct 14 10:51:25 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: ecommerce and shopping carts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > June-July of '94 my company (Bibliobytes/HKS.net) released > > "OrderBook", which was basically a front end that would let you enter > > some SKU's and credit card info and would email us an encrypted copy > > of the order to be processed and fufilled. You got the SKUs from a > > catalog downloaded seperately from a web page, by ftp, or whatever. > > > > Around August 2004, NetMarket, a startup done by four guys from > > Swarthmore, started selling CDs over the web. > > Wow, I didn't realize e-commerce was being deployed even this early. > > > Anyone know of any other shopping-cart and/or automatic payment > > systems that were up and running or publically described > > before October of '94? > > I've got a few very early web directory books from this timeframe that > might shed some light. In late 1993 (oct-nov), my company (InfoMagic, Inc) started using our online "intranet" site for dealing with larger customers (usually resellers, store chains and such) for ordering. This was much like the Bibiobytes setup: we emailed out SKU lists, and they just entered them into the site, after which our order processors got the info in encrypted format so they could pull it through the financial and logistical packages for processing. Later, sometime mid-1994, this was enhanced to be mostly automated; no more encrypted email, but a pipe straight into the logistics system. I guess this indeed is a form of eCommerce, tho at the time, we just liked it 'cos it saved us from having many people around, typing in numbers .. ;) Much later, "regular" ordering sites for the general public were put into place.. this is ~1995 or ~1996 or so. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 14 11:52:09 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Rescue a 6000! In-Reply-To: <20041012214642.GA25260@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: The shipping charges from Conneticut were too rich for my blood so I'm hoping one of you will be able to save this machine. It's a VAX 6000/610 with dual CPUs. It has 384MB of RAM and 24GB of drive space via 12 drives. It also comes with VMS documentation. I don't know how much. Email Bob Donovan at bdonovan -at- ssww.com if you're interested. Thanks! g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Oct 14 11:52:46 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Rescue a 6000! References: Message-ID: <000801c4b20e$3bebc550$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 6:52 PM Subject: Rescue a 6000! > It's a VAX 6000/610 with dual CPUs. Oh sh.... I hoped it was a Philips 6000... Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 07-10-2004 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 14 12:55:46 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:00 2005 Subject: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) Message-ID: Hi folks, Got this in my inbox today, is it one of the scams I've seen others here get? If not, all you HP collectors now have this guy's details! cheers :) a ------------------------------------------------------------ Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail from: Rajat Kakkar (rajatkakkar@rediffmail.com ) on October 14th, 2004 at 04:05PM (BST). Respected Sir / Madam, I am having a Spool Disk Drive of HP (Model : 7970E) belonging to yesteryears, had been purchased and stored by me for past 6-7 years but, I am not able to store it further, hence, anyone desirous of preserving it for future, please feel free to contact me at your convenience. Specifications of the machine are --- Name : HP 7970E Make : HP (Hewlett Packard) , USA Model : 7970 E Tape Speed : 45 IPS Option : 015/088/151 Further details 230V AC 400V AC Max 48 - 66 Hz 233 Watts Quantity - 1 No. Price - US $ 100 + transportation charges, excise, tax as applicable. My contact details are - Rajat Kakkar, 70 - B, DDA Flats, Gulabi Bagh, Delhi - 110 007, India Ph. : 91-11-23655131 Mobile : 91-011-9868209805 E-mail : rajatkakkar@rediffmail.com Waiting for your reply. Thanking You, Regards Rajat Kakkar From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 14 13:10:12 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Got this in my inbox today, is it one of the scams I've seen others here > get? If not, all you HP collectors now have this guy's details! > > > > I am having a Spool Disk Drive of HP (Model : 7970E) belonging to > yesteryears, had been purchased > This floated around the list last year - guy's in India and the Customs duties alone will make this impossible, not to mention the shipping for an HP 9trk tape drive (what he calls a 'spool disk'). A couple of us corresponded with this individual... I don't think it's a scam, I do think Rajatji is a bit clue-impaired... Cheers From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 14 13:51:29 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Lawson > Sent: 14 October 2004 19:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) > > This floated around the list last year - guy's in India > and the Customs duties alone will make this impossible, not > to mention the shipping for an HP 9trk tape drive (what he > calls a 'spool disk'). A couple of us corresponded with this > individual... I don't think it's a scam, I do think Rajatji > is a bit clue-impaired... Ah, OK. It may be that he's not clue-impaired but just thinks you lot are having him on about the shipping costs :) cheers w From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 14 13:59:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) Message-ID: <200410141859.LAA04419@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Adrian Graham" > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Lawson >> Sent: 14 October 2004 19:10 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) >> >> This floated around the list last year - guy's in India >> and the Customs duties alone will make this impossible, not >> to mention the shipping for an HP 9trk tape drive (what he >> calls a 'spool disk'). A couple of us corresponded with this >> individual... I don't think it's a scam, I do think Rajatji >> is a bit clue-impaired... > >Ah, OK. It may be that he's not clue-impaired but just thinks you lot are >having him on about the shipping costs :) > >cheers > >w > > Hi It is US manufactured. I'm not sure why there are duties on it. Shipping is an issue. Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 14 14:16:30 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Scam? (was: FW: Binary Dinosaurs incoming mail!) In-Reply-To: <200410141859.LAA04419@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410141859.LAA04419@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > It is US manufactured. I'm not sure why there are duties > on it. May you never have to ship *anything* in or out of Mother India. Especially anything electronic or mechanical - used or not, country of origin notwithstanding. We had American-made audio gear, and there were duties levied on the shipping of items for repair/return - both friggin' ways... one of the reasons that The Subcontinent is nowhere near as advance technologically as they could be. The are increasing calls for customs tariff reforms, but the (real) bottom line is that billions of Rupees flow into the Government (and various pockets) anually from this source alone... to which you need to add the "speed money" that is often required to inusure your goods make it to the loading dock intact. ;} Then there's Mumbai (Bombay) who have their *own* "import-export" duties... it would be like New York decreeing that all goods coming in to the city have to be levied... this is called 'Octroi' in Mumbai. It is not levied on airline chacked baggage - so, when we had say, a trade show to do, we'd take the *entire* thing on the plane as checked bags - divided up among the attendees. It always was a lot cheaper than trucking it in and paying the goddam tax. Cheers John From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 14 15:07:15 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Further on India shipping (on topic) Message-ID: In 2000 we bought an SGI Onyx on eBay, for about $2K - from a reseller, checked out, warranted, with doc and OS... all Ok. Had it crated and shipped air-freight. First thing Customs wanted was "Chartered Engineer's Certificate" on the thing, then the original (not copies!) invoices and sales orders for the machine and the various software packages. Now: the US does not have "Chartered Engineers" - this is a European position, and roughly equates with a certified technical appraiser. I managed to get hold of a report from a chartered engineer in Germany (for a piston-ring grinding machine) and doctored it up, then sent it to my freind in the US who is an appraiser... who sent it back. No signatures, nothing really official, but still Customs insisted on it. We told them that the machine was used and had been refurbished, and that finding the original sales invoices was impossible. They then spent a month 'researching' it - and got back to us with the inofrmation that they found that similarly-configured machines had sold new for about $345,000. So they happily informed us that the duties would be 70% of new cost. Ya'll can do the Math.... It took six months of back-and-forth negotiations, recriminations, calling in favors, bribes, etc... the unit was finally valued at $14,000 and they said we could pay 70% of that or they'd seize the machine for non-payment and scrap it, and charge us for the storage and paperwork involved. So we ended up paying $11,800 plus shipping for an already-old Onyx. This goes on every day there - one of the reasons that there is very little electronic 'surplus' or flea-markets - everyone simply fixes and maintains whatever they have for the longest possible time, rather than pay the price on new gear which includes the awful duties. This was originally instituted by the Indian Government in the late 40's - early 50's as a way to stimulate the infrastructure to produce and be competitive, but of course you know who *that* turned out.. Cheers John From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 14 15:40:01 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Rescue a 6000! References: <000801c4b20e$3bebc550$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <0acb01c4b22e$018a5820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> It's a VAX 6000/610 with dual CPUs. > Oh sh.... I hoped it was a Philips 6000... And me a little RS6K. But I will check since it is nearby. BTW I have already done a ship-and-hold of a V6K for an ex-lister. John A. dechead? who me? From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 15:57:46 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Vintage calculator question... Message-ID: <20041014205746.982.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Hey folks... this isn't REALLY off-topic because, as everyone knows by now, I only collect calculators that also have PDA functions... i.e. computers. My latest find is a Sharp EL-8160, circa 1978/1979. This isn't the "first" PDA, but it's still a (very) early example. I can make it display letters on the screen, but I can't figure out how to make it save the data. I know the function works because, when it came in the mail and I turned it on, there was some former owner's memo on the screen! Does anyone have, or did anyone once own, a Sharp EL-8160? If so I could use a manual or some help. - Evan ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 570 readers and counting! From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 14 15:59:05 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Vintage calculator question... Message-ID: <20041014205905.12261.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Hey folks... this isn't REALLY off-topic because, as everyone knows by now, I only collect calculators that also have PDA functions... i.e. computers. My latest find is a Sharp EL-8160, circa 1978/1979. This isn't the "first" PDA, but it's still a (very) early example. I can make it display letters on the screen, but I can't figure out how to make it save the data. I know the function works because, when it came in the mail and I turned it on, there was some former owner's memo on the screen! Does anyone have, or did anyone once own, a Sharp EL-8160? If so I could use a manual or some help. - Evan (PS -- I sent this message from the wrong email address just now, so please accept my apology if it also appears on this list from evan947@yahoo) ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector E-mail Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 570 readers and counting! From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 14 17:44:08 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: ecommerce and shopping carts In-Reply-To: <0qekk1a64q.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qekk1a64q.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041014233642.02e0fec0@pop.freeserve.net> At 12:31 14/10/2004, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: >Anyone know of any other shopping-cart and/or automatic payment >systems that were up and running or publically described >before October of '94? I definitely bought a book ("The meaning of Liff") in the early 1980s on Prestel, British Telecom's online viewdata public information service. I think it was via Club 403 (all pages were numbered, with main IPs ("Information Providers") being allocated 3-digit prefixes, hence many called themselves after their page number). I actually found my old '403 membership card the other day - it expired in 1985. I have a vague feeling that although I placed the order through their online system, they phoned me up for the credit card details.. I do have a fair bit of old Prestel (and Viatel - Australia) publicity material and IP brochures, but not sure if they mention any form of e-commerce (as that phrase hadn't been coined then!). Rob From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 14 18:27:40 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet Message-ID: Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal programs.. Even though they say they are vt100 compatible, they still spew garbage and don't make the proper screen with vt50dpy... however vt50dpy running on a serial port on the host system works fine.. I just want to work at that terminal. what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I suppose vt50dpy makes more use of the terminal control codes.. Well, Thanks for the suggestions so far. :^) From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 14 18:42:17 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> At 07:27 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal programs.. Even though >they say they are vt100 compatible, they still spew garbage and don't make >the proper screen with vt50dpy... however vt50dpy >running on a serial port on the host system works fine.. I just want to >work at that terminal. > >what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I suppose >vt50dpy makes more use >of the terminal control codes.. Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC specific. They used way different programming codes. Ed K. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 14 18:49:23 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2004, at 4:42 PM, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 07:27 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >> Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal programs.. Even >> though they say they are vt100 compatible, they still spew garbage >> and don't make the proper screen with vt50dpy... however vt50dpy >> running on a serial port on the host system works fine.. I just want >> to work at that terminal. >> >> what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I >> suppose vt50dpy makes more use >> of the terminal control codes.. > > Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... > > vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? > VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC specific. > They used way different programming codes. I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor control instead of spacing) but I am not sure how to supply those via the run command as in run $vt50dpy /24 /dca like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run $vt50dpy starts up fine. I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) > > Ed K. > From mcesari at comcast.net Thu Oct 14 19:07:08 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <278BE816-1E3E-11D9-81D1-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Oct 14, 2004, at 4:42 PM, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >> At 07:27 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >>> Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal programs.. Even >>> though they say they are vt100 compatible, they still spew garbage >>> and don't make the proper screen with vt50dpy... however vt50dpy >>> running on a serial port on the host system works fine.. I just want >>> to work at that terminal. >>> >>> what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I >>> suppose vt50dpy makes more use >>> of the terminal control codes.. >> >> Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... >> >> vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? >> VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC specific. >> They used way different programming codes. > > I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for > vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." VT100's (and later DEC terminals) have a VT52 mode. xterm doesn't AFAIK. Mike From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 14 19:12:55 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014200527.09958680@192.168.0.1> At 07:49 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >>Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... >> >>vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? >>VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC specific. >>They used way different programming codes. > >I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for >vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." > >The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines instead of >12) and /DCA (use cursor >control instead of spacing) but I am not sure how to supply those via the >run command as in >run $vt50dpy /24 /dca > >like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run $vt50dpy >starts up fine. > >I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) Ohhhhh RSTS! Light bulb goes off in head - light leaks out nose and ears from empty skull. Thought that sounded familiar, VT50DPY was the continuously updating SYSTAT thing? The "bring the system to it's knees" program (along with Plane)? Real VT100's had a hardware VT52 emulation mode, or you could NOT use DCA and it should run on a VT100. But, a 7 character program name?? Thought RSTS and the others were 6.3? Gotta get RSTS system going here. As soon as I get my SCSI drives going: 1 for RT11, 1 for RSX11M, 1 for RSTS, as soon as I get my UC08 going, as soon as I .... get my teletype :-) Ed K. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 14 21:01:09 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... Message-ID: \ Looks like I may be doing a rescue of the following in Eastern Conn.... It is a VAX 6000/610. 2 cabinets, approx 1000 lbs total weight. 2 CPU CMD Technologies DSSI controller ethernet capable comes with up to a dozen 2 gig drives( formatted) covers for the empty drive bays pretty sure that it is 208 volt single phase, although the drive cabinet has a 120v 30 amp twist lock connector on the cable. I dont know if this plugs into the CPU cabinets PSU or what. VMS docs and manuals The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good financially So....What do I do????? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 14 21:02:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without >debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good >financially > >So....What do I do????? It sounds pretty simple to me, don't go. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 14 21:23:57 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410142223.59120.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Thursday 14 October 2004 22:01, David V. Corbin wrote: > \ > Looks like I may be doing a rescue of the following in Eastern Conn.... > > > The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without > debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be > good financially > > So....What do I do????? Sounds like the need for a vintage computer trailer extends beyond Ottawa. Locate a large trailer that will hold enough machines to satisfy your wife top: if wife complains loudly move the trailer to a fellow collectors driveway endif goto top -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 14 21:27:16 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041014221900.00ae5d78@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: > >The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without >debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good >financially > >So....What do I do????? 1) where do you live 2) do you already have someone else to take it? (or at least parts of it) 3) how long will your wife believe you when you say "I already have someone else to take it!" ;-) If it's a temporary rescue, it'll help others to know where you are... Depending on the circumstances (distance, timeframe, etc.) I /might/ be able to ferry parts of it from point A to point B for another list member... If it doesn't need to be covered/trailered, that would greatly improve distance calculations... I didn't get a chance to repack my trailer bearings this fall... :-/ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 14 21:44:02 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041015024402.33281.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Hmmm, I'm going to Connecticut next weekend. Suppose it will fit in my Miata? Evan :) --- "David V. Corbin" wrote: > \ > Looks like I may be doing a rescue of the following in Eastern Conn.... > > It is a VAX 6000/610. > 2 cabinets, approx 1000 lbs total weight. > 2 CPU > CMD Technologies DSSI controller > ethernet capable > comes with up to a dozen 2 gig drives( formatted) > covers for the empty drive bays > pretty sure that it is 208 volt single phase, although the drive cabinet has > a 120v 30 amp twist lock connector on the cable. I dont know if this plugs > into the CPU cabinets PSU or what. > VMS docs and manuals > > > The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without > debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good > financially > > So....What do I do????? > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 575 readers and counting! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 14 21:54:55 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014200527.09958680@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041014200527.09958680@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <97B3F740-1E55-11D9-AF42-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 07:49 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >>> Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... >>> >>> vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? >>> VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC specific. >>> They used way different programming codes. >> >> I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for >> vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." >> >> The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines >> instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor >> control instead of spacing) but I am not sure how to supply those via >> the run command as in >> run $vt50dpy /24 /dca >> >> like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run >> $vt50dpy starts up fine. >> >> I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) > > Ohhhhh RSTS! > Light bulb goes off in head - light leaks out nose and ears from empty > skull. > > Thought that sounded familiar, VT50DPY was the continuously updating > SYSTAT thing? > The "bring the system to it's knees" program (along with Plane)? Plane? What is this, Plane? PLANE? ooh nooo a flight simulator on a teletype :^) (frame rate? We don't need no steenking frame rate) > Real VT100's had a hardware VT52 emulation mode, or you could NOT use > DCA and it should run on a VT100. > Hmm play with kermit summore and get it to be a vt52. > But, a 7 character program name?? Thought RSTS and the others were > 6.3? > > Gotta get RSTS system going here. > As soon as I get my SCSI drives going: 1 for RT11, 1 for RSX11M, 1 for > RSTS, > as soon as I get my UC08 going, > as soon as I .... get my teletype > > :-) > > Ed K. From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 14 22:19:09 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: <20041015024402.33281.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041015024402.33281.qmail@web52803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Hmmm, I'm going to Connecticut next weekend. Suppose it will > fit in my Miata? without a gzip that works on matter, probably not. However, the machine fits into a 14' rental truck, and the miata on a towbar out back... From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 14 22:29:31 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041015032931.22434.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, but then there's the matter of stuffing it into my sixth-floor, one-bedroom apartment of a walk-up building! LOL why do you think I collect handhelds? --- Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > > > Hmmm, I'm going to Connecticut next weekend. Suppose it will > > fit in my Miata? > > without a gzip that works on matter, probably not. > > However, the machine fits into a 14' rental truck, and the > miata on a towbar out back... > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 575 readers and counting! From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 14 22:35:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: <20041015032931.22434.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041015032931.22434.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Yeah, but then there's the matter of stuffing it into my sixth-floor, > one-bedroom apartment of a walk-up building! LOL why do you think I collect > handhelds? Ahh, details... From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 15 04:52:14 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041015055206.024c2a78@192.168.0.1> At 10:01 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without >debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good >financially > >So....What do I do????? Road Trip!! Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 15 05:07:29 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Parts Required Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041015060146.03025280@192.168.0.1> Just got the below inquiry in. Wonder if Pakistan has same problems as India? Seems legit. But if they found me, they must be scrapping the bottom of the barrel. The only things I have on the list is 1 LPV11 and some DHV11's. I'm not going to do anything with it if anyone else wants to, knock yourself out (go for it, have a ball, have a go, [insert local idiom here] etc. etc. ). Ed K. ------------------------------------- Hi I need the following. 1. DECserver 250 (DSRVP-AA) 05 Nos Pls confirm, is any software driver required for DECserver 250, if yes then pls do provide the price for this driver too) 2. DESTA 05 Nos 3. DS-RZ40-VA 9.1 GB SCSI Hard Disk 22 Nos 4. DS-RZ1EA-VW 18 GB SCSI Hard Disk 12 Nos 5. TLZ 10 (Internal) Tape Drive 12/24 GB 10 Nos 6. TLZ 7 (Internal) Tape Drive 8/12 GB 04 Nos 7. Communication Cable to connect DECServer 250 with LP29 5 Nos. (BC27A 30 Ft Cable) 8. M 3104 DHV11 03 Nos 9. M 8027 LPV11 03 Nos 10. TF 85 tape drive 04 Nos 11. 90L Terminal server 05 Nos Will appreciate ur early reply. Best rgds Muneeb Saeed Rabbani 117, Ahmed Block, New Garden Town Lahore, Pakistan Phone NO. 92 42 5842226 & 7 FAX 92 42 5842228 E-mail: muneebsaeedr@yahoo.com trojans@wol.net.pk From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Oct 15 07:10:17 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: Parts Required In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041015060146.03025280@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Just got the below inquiry in. > Wonder if Pakistan has same problems as India? > Seems legit. I just asked a customer.. they have an office in Lahore. They said the info checks out, so it seems to be a valid request. Cheers, Fred From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 15 08:02:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 on November 6-7 Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 Saturday, November 6 through Sunday, November 7 Computer History Museum Mountain VIiew, California Since the last VCF, the trials and tribulations of daily life made their inevitability painfully attendant: bills came due, accidents happened, bad days at the office were had, arguments broke out, and the morning paper was thrown into the sprinklers yet again. Woe is us! But lo, a bright and shining beacon of nerdilicious salvation is on the horizon and draws nigh. The Vintage Computer Festival returns! Vintage Computer Festival 7.0 is right around the corner, taking place on November 6-7 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View in (still) sunny California. Flights are cheap and so is the admission, so you have little excuse to stay home cramped behind your computer trying in vain to craft that perfect Google search term. Just put all that nonsense behind you and join us for some fanatical Festival folly! We are honored to once again have the Computer History Museum as our sponsor! And as always, we bring you yet another wonderful line-up of speakers, exhibitors, and special events, including a 30th anniversary retro- spective of Maze War, the original "first-person shooter" videogame, plus so much more! In fact, we're planning so much for this year's event, it might possibly be even too much! Some of it we can't even mention yet because we're still in the middle of planning it. So come on out and watch us put on a gargantuan geek gala guaranteed to gasify your gall bladder...either that or watch us crash and burn in spectacular style. Either way, it's sure to be entertaining! Exhibitors Wanted!!! One of the best ways to enjoy the VCF is by participating directly. Be an exhibitor! As an exhibitor, you get to be a part of all the behind-the-scenes action. Plus you get a chance to show off your favorite computer and perhaps even win an award for an outstanding exhibit. The Best of Show award includes as a prize the Replica 1, a software compatible re-creation of the legendary Apple-1 computer, courtesy of its creator, Vince Briel. So don't delay, sign up today! http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/exhibit.php More information about Vince Briel's Replica 1 can be found on his website: http://home.comcast.net/~vbriel/ We've Got Lodging! For out of town guests, the VCF has arranged a hotel room block at the Residence Inn Palto Alto Mountain View, located within 3 miles of the Computer History Museum and featuing, among other fine amenities, an on-demand shuttle service between the Inn and the Computer History Museum. The special VCF rate is US$79 per night. Reservations must be made by October 15 to take advantange of this terrific rate so do not delay! Full details are available here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/lodging.php Computer History Galore! The VCF speaker schedule has moved back to a "track" style this year. The talks are assembled into themes for the most part. We've got another terrific line-up! Check it out: Saturday, November 6 Track 01 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 10:00am Using Vintage Computers in Forensics Fred Cohen 11:00am Documenting the BBS Jason Scott 12:00pm The Art of Textmode Christian Wirth 1:00pm History of FidoNet Tom Jennings Track 10 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 11:30am Confessions of an Entrepreneur Dr. Robert Suding 12:30pm VCF Ramblings Sellam Ismail 1:00pm Computer History Museum Update CHM Staff Sunday, November 7 Track 01 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------ 10:00am Early IBM History John Sailors 11:00am The IBM 360 Evolution and Revolution Jerome Svigals 12:00pm Early Microprocessor Design Nick Tredennick 1:00pm Maze War Retrospective Panel Track 10 Time Topic Speaker ------- ------------------------------------- ------------------- 10:30am Things You May Not Know... Evan Koblentz 11:30am Tipping Sacred Cows Tom Jennings 12:30am The Art of Vintage Computers Christine Finn 1:30pm Neo-Retro: The XGameStation Andre LaMothe More information on the VCF 7.0 speakers can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/speaker.php BBS Documentary Screening Jason Scott, proprietor of textfiles.com--the Internet's largest collection of historic textfiles--has completed work on his BBS documentary. "BBS: The Documentary" spans across seven separate films which cover every aspect of the world of bulletin board systems, tracing the history of the BBS as well as the historic figures that made it a distinctly unique mode of digital communication. This will be the first public screening of the documentary, and audience input from VCF attendees will determine the final cut of the film series. More information on the screening can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/screening.php Computer History Museum Tours As always, the Computer History Museum's terrific staff will be giving VCF attendees tours of the Museum's fantastic collection. Tours are held in the afternoon and run every half an hour. Tour information is available here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/tours.php Buy, Sell and Trade at the VCF Marketplace As always, one of the most exciting aspects of the VCF is the Marketplace, where you can find a large and varied assortment of some of the most fantastical old computer thingies anywhere. Find that odd part you've been seeking out for your collection, then touch, smell, even taste it if you like, before haggling out a deal. There is simply no better place to buy and sell vintage computers than at the VCF Marketplace. Vendor booths are still available. For more information on selling at VCF 7.0, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/vendor.php The VCF 7.0 BBS is Live! Communicate with fellow VCF 7.0 attendees on the VCF 7.0 BBS! Set up trades and carpools, talk about exhibiting, and discuss generally anything about the upcoming Festival: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/bbs.php So Much More! Complete information about VCF 7.0, including the speaker schedule and exhibit roster, as well as lodging information and driving directions, can be found on the VCF 7.0 web pages: http://www.vintage.org/2004/main/ Keep in mind that the VCF will from now on be held during the first weekend in November. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 15 08:52:02 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet References: Message-ID: <16751.54786.237014.384316@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal Ron> programs.. Even though they say they are vt100 compatible, they Ron> still spew garbage and don't make the proper screen with Ron> vt50dpy... however vt50dpy running on a serial port on the host Ron> system works fine.. I just want to work at that terminal. Ron> what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I Ron> suppose vt50dpy makes more use of the terminal control codes.. Chances are that VT50DPY (given its name) uses VT52 escape sequence, not ANSI escape sequences. It seems likely that a lot of terminal emulators do ANSI pretty well, but VT52 not well at all. Check if your VT50DPY has a switch that asks for ANSI escape sequences; that may help. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 15 09:01:20 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041014200527.09958680@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16751.55344.988933.652440@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> At 07:49 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >>> Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... >>> >>> vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC >>> specific. They used way different programming codes. >> I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for >> vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." >> >> The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines >> instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor control instead of spacing) >> but I am not sure how to supply those via the run command as in >> run $vt50dpy /24 /dca >> >> like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run >> $vt50dpy starts up fine. >> >> I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) Ed> Ohhhhh RSTS! Light bulb goes off in head - light leaks out nose Ed> and ears from empty skull. Ed> Thought that sounded familiar, VT50DPY was the continuously Ed> updating SYSTAT thing? The "bring the system to it's knees" Ed> program (along with Plane)? Real VT100's had a hardware VT52 Ed> emulation mode, or you could NOT use DCA and it should run on a Ed> VT100. Ed> But, a 7 character program name?? Thought RSTS and the others Ed> were 6.3? The name was VT50PY, or DISPLY, or something like that. In V10.1, that program would do ANSI escape sequences if the terminal appeared to be a VT100 or above (i.e., a scope with XON support and no fill). But, judging by the sources, that wasn't available before V10.1. So you can change the code :-) or you can track down an xterm with VT52 escape support, or you could add it to xterm (VT52 escapes are pretty simple...) paul From wacarder at usit.net Fri Oct 15 09:22:56 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet Message-ID: <27766276.1097850177352.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Ed> At 07:49 PM 10/14/2004, you wrote: >>> Please pardon my ignorance here, I'm going out on a limb ... >>> >>> vt50dpy as in VT50/VT52?? VT100's were ANSI, VT50/VT52 were DEC >>> specific. They used way different programming codes. >> I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for >> vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." >> >> The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines >> instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor control instead of spacing) >> but I am not sure how to supply those via the run command as in >> run $vt50dpy /24 /dca >> >> like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run >> $vt50dpy starts up fine. >> >> I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) Ed> Ohhhhh RSTS! Light bulb goes off in head - light leaks out nose Ed> and ears from empty skull. Ed> Thought that sounded familiar, VT50DPY was the continuously Ed> updating SYSTAT thing? The "bring the system to it's knees" Ed> program (along with Plane)? Real VT100's had a hardware VT52 Ed> emulation mode, or you could NOT use DCA and it should run on a Ed> VT100. Ed> But, a 7 character program name?? Thought RSTS and the others Ed> were 6.3? The name was VT50PY, or DISPLY, or something like that. In V10.1, that program would do ANSI escape sequences if the terminal appeared to be a VT100 or above (i.e., a scope with XON support and no fill). But, judging by the sources, that wasn't available before V10.1. So you can change the code :-) or you can track down an xterm with VT52 escape support, or you could add it to xterm (VT52 escapes are pretty simple...) paul ------------- Ashley's stuff below (pardon me for leaving the large amount of the previous message up above. I know someone will scold me for that) I have VT50PY (yes that's the name) running on my PDP-11. And yes, that's the program that used to bring the system to its knees on weaker systems. I am out of town right now, but in order to make the thing work, you have to load the BASIC+ source for (I think) DISPLY.BAS and then APPEND VT50.DPY (or something like that - I'm saying this from memory and my memory is faulty). Then COMPILE it, and run it. If you want to allow non-privileged users to run it, compile it to <232>. It uses the VT50/VT52 escape sequences to clear and update the screen, so you need to do VT50/VT52 emulation. It does have a switch to allow you to use 24 line VT52 mode vs the standard 12 line VT50 mode. I'll check on the details when I get back home. Sounds like you need to make sure your terminal emulator is doing VT50 or VT52 emulation. It runs fine on my real VT52s or on my telnet sessions with VT52 emulation. Ashley From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Oct 15 09:33:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <16751.55344.988933.652440@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041014200527.09958680@192.168.0.1> <16751.55344.988933.652440@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200410151523.LAA03931@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > So you can change the code :-) or you can track down an xterm with > VT52 escape support, or you could add it to xterm (VT52 escapes are > pretty simple...) If people care, I could add VT52 emulation to mterm easily enough. (mterm is a terminal emulator I wrote which has fairly good separation between the terminal-emulator engine and the rest, such as the display and OS interface code.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kth at srv.net Fri Oct 15 11:14:46 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <416FF776.2090605@srv.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > > I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for > vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." > > The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines > instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor > control instead of spacing) but I am not sure how to supply those via > the run command as in > run $vt50dpy /24 /dca $ run $vt50dpy Interval: 30/dca/24 > > like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run > $vt50dpy starts up fine. > > I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 15 11:08:42 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <16751.54786.237014.384316@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015120425.03b2d498@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul Koning may have mentioned these words: > >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> Well, Kermit did the same thing as the two terminal > Ron> programs.. Even though they say they are vt100 compatible, they > Ron> still spew garbage and don't make the proper screen with > Ron> vt50dpy... however vt50dpy running on a serial port on the host > Ron> system works fine.. I just want to work at that terminal. > > Ron> what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I > Ron> suppose vt50dpy makes more use of the terminal control codes.. > >Chances are that VT50DPY (given its name) uses VT52 escape sequence, >not ANSI escape sequences. It seems likely that a lot of terminal >emulators do ANSI pretty well, but VT52 not well at all. Why not just hook up your handy-dandy ever-trusty Tandy Model 100/102 or 200 laptop? IIRC, It used VT52 as the serial protocol for it's screen... ;-) You do have one, right? ;^> Just set the screen parameters to 40x8 or 40x16 respectively, and 600 or 1200 bps (again, respectively; scrolling was a bear on the Tandys and could cause lost characters -- altho there are patches available on www.club100.org that could improve the problem and attain you 9600bps, IIRC. The Tandy 200 was better than the 100/102.) and hop into TELCOM. Might need a little tweaking, but it should work... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Oct 15 11:13:10 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015120425.03b2d498@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Why not just hook up your handy-dandy ever-trusty Tandy Model 100/102 or > 200 laptop? IIRC, It used VT52 as the serial protocol for it's screen... > ;-) You do have one, right? ;^> VT52 is not a serial protocol. It is a (DEC) standard for doing screen and attribute control, akin to VT100, VT200, ANSI et al. But, yes, most DOS-based term programs (I use my own, but Kermit, Telix et al come to mind) did a good VT5x emulation, so using an old lappy sounds smart! --f From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 15 11:37:40 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015120425.03b2d498@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015122803.03b08970@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred N. van Kempen may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Why not just hook up your handy-dandy ever-trusty Tandy Model 100/102 or > > 200 laptop? IIRC, It used VT52 as the serial protocol for it's screen... > > ;-) You do have one, right? ;^> >VT52 is not a serial protocol. It is a (DEC) standard for doing >screen and attribute control, akin to VT100, VT200, ANSI et al. I know. Erm... maybe I mistyped unclearly-like. Lemme say it this way: The screens in the Tandy 100/102/200 are serial. As such, it needed a way to perform screen and attribute control. They used VT52 as the standard to perform such control. So, anything that sends it VT52 codes down the RS232 into the TELCOM program are just shipped directly to the screen control program, and they just work. If that's still unclear, you'll have to wait 5 or 6 hours until it's time (on my side of the planet, anyway...) to have a couple of beers at such time my thinking processes will improve immensely. ;^> One caveat: I _think_ the VT52 command set it has is only a subset of the entire VT52 standard; how complete the subset is I don't know. If an application needed support for a (possibly) unsupported VT52 command, it may not function correctly. >But, yes, most DOS-based term programs (I use my own, but Kermit, >Telix et al come to mind) did a good VT5x emulation, so using an >old lappy sounds smart! So you see - I'm not as dumb as I look anyway! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 15 12:16:53 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:01 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <27766276.1097850177352.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <27766276.1097850177352.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0226C3A6-1ECE-11D9-918C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> > Ok, I have the compiled thing, I think perhaps it is just ignoring my 'y' when I type run $vt50dpy. It runs ok on an HP terminal emulating a VT100, but it wont run on telnet running on iTerm or Terminal in mac os X I just tried it on the telent that comes with windows 98, nope.. same thing - even though it has a vt52 setting. Well it's just a display, looks nice. but unnecessary. Thanks everyone. nuff time spent on this... Who want's LEMON.BAS a lemonade stand game? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 15 12:20:50 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015120425.03b2d498@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015120425.03b2d498@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <8F6368C7-1ECE-11D9-918C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 15, 2004, at 9:08 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Why not just hook up your handy-dandy ever-trusty Tandy Model 100/102 > or 200 laptop? IIRC, It used VT52 as the serial protocol for it's > screen... ;-) You do have one, right? ;^> > > Actually I do.. a model 102 - I don't know how vt50dp could fit everything on such a small screen. I wonder if my 102 is up to simulating a PDP11 ;^) Would you believe a pdp-8? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 15 12:32:49 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: <416FF776.2090605@srv.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041014194008.099bd198@192.168.0.1> <416FF776.2090605@srv.net> Message-ID: <3C540F8A-1ED0-11D9-918C-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 15, 2004, at 9:14 AM, Kevin Handy wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> >> I suspect I misunderstood the manual when it said "Use VT50DPY for >> vt50,vt52 and vt100 terminals." >> >> The manual also mentions command options like /24 (use 24 lines >> instead of 12) and /DCA (use cursor >> control instead of spacing) but I am not sure how to supply those via >> the run command as in >> run $vt50dpy /24 /dca > > $ run $vt50dpy > Interval: 30/dca/24 oooh thanks - now my terminal shows much more... hang on lemme try the os/x with that.. nope still misses the control codes... could it be that it only works on directly connected terminal - telnet does somthing wierd before it gets to iTerm or Terminal (or telnet in the windows box) oh Well... > >> >> like that? It complains that it can't find some file, where run >> $vt50dpy starts up fine. >> >> I suppose I need to make a CCL.. right? :^) > > From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Oct 15 13:04:03 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Pointer to Keith Bostic? Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone have (working ;-) contact information to get a hold of Keith Bostic? Thanks, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Oct 15 17:58:09 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: HP-1000 Series M,E, & F Parts avail, Wichita, KS Message-ID: <20041015.155810.220.6.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Email me off-list for details . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 15 19:12:44 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: How to access BIOS setup on Philips P3230? Message-ID: Does anyone care to help this person? See below. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:52:53 -0700 From: Robin Rae To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: shot in the dark. I've been ripping my hair out and was wondering if someone there could help, I need to know how to access BIOS setup on a Philips P3230 (286/12.5) the only site i knew of that had manuals has disappeared. any help would be greatly appreciated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 19:28:14 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Why are all of my TRS-80 Model 200 portables dead? Message-ID: <20041016002814.3496.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> I have *five* Model 200s now, and not a single one works, but I have just as many Model 100s, and every single one works. Is this just bad luck, or is there something defective about the design? Steve. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 15 20:05:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Burroughs L9000 Message-ID: <200410160105.SAA05504@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I just saw a request for help in repairing one of these on alt.folklore.computers. It seems that this company was actually using this machine. They are having problems with the printer ( no wonder ). They are in the LA area. I would suspect that after getting things printed out, they might be interested in parting with it ( if they had any sense ). It would be a good opportunity for a local collector. Dwight From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 15 20:06:22 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Why are all of my TRS-80 Model 200 portables dead? In-Reply-To: <20041016002814.3496.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041015204757.05aae118@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that steven may have mentioned these words: >I have *five* Model 200s now, and not a single one >works, but I have just as many Model 100s, and every >single one works. Yea, the design sucks, and you should just send each and every one of them to me for the cost of shipping. Really. ;-) OK, not really. However, define "Dead" and what you did to test it. Also, keep in mind that: 1) If the internal nicads have never been replaced, they're 20 years old, and are prolly due for replacement. It's not difficult, and you can get new ones from Rick Hanson at www.club100.org - he's been supporting Model 'T's for over 20 years, and a great guy - he deserves your business! ;-) 2) As the 200 uses a softswitch thru software to run the power, it gives it a few extra capabilities, but also an extra problem - if the computer gets into an unknown state, that can cause it from powering up. Turn off the memory switch, remove the batteries and make sure it's unplugged from the wall overnite, then reinstall batteries and/or plug in a wall-wart, wait at least a minute (3-5 is better) then hit the power switch. If nothing happens, see #1 above. ;-) If you're unsure of your abilities to replace the internal battery[1], I'd be happy to do it for you for shipping both ways and a nominal fee, which would include the new battery. >Is this just bad luck, or is there something defective >about the design? Any laptop that can make it 20 years can't suffer from a bad design. However, it's known by all in the Model 'T' circles that the Model 100 & 102 are a little more "bulletproof" due to the simpler design. ;-) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Certainly no slight was meant, but some people here are inherently software d00dz, and some are hardware d00dz. If you're not a hardware d00dz, I'd be happy to help out; I've replace almost a dozen of these in 100's, 102's and 200's over the last 4-5 years. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From sieler at allegro.com Wed Oct 6 19:11:31 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) Message-ID: <41642743.1556.BC88730@localhost> Re: > The 4032 and 8032 normally give a "beep series", which > might be interpreted as "four beeps" - is it sort of one > long continuous beep that warbles four times, or is it > four distinct beeps? The former. > If the former, then it's normal, if the latter, then I darn :) > First, make sure the monitor is working (There's a > brightness control on the back which may have been We played with that control ... no change (i.e., nothing visible of any kind on the monitor). thanks, BTW! (I picked this up at a local ham/computer swapmeet this weekend, intending to pass it on to someone at the Vintage Computer Festival.) Stan ------- End of forwarded message ------- -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From nbreeden2 at comcast.net Wed Oct 6 23:22:29 2004 From: nbreeden2 at comcast.net (Neil Breeden) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: 8279 Datasheet Message-ID: <200410070441.i974f1n9095593@huey.classiccmp.org> I'm looking for a datasheet for an 8279 chip (Keyboard / LED controller), I haven't found anything useful on the net. A PDF of the original Intel datasheet would be preferred. Thanks -Neil From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Oct 7 09:25:30 2004 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Old IBM pc available...contact original email author (in chicago suburbs) In-Reply-To: <003301c4ac77$f49026b0$5a120f14@mcothran1> References: <003301c4ac77$f49026b0$5a120f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: At 7:13 AM -0700 10/7/04, robert grzonka wrote: >X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email >X-Sender: bobbygrz@yahoo.com >X-Apparently-To: schaumburg_area_freecycle@yahoogroups.com >To: schaumburg_area_freecycle@yahoogroups.com >X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.109.116.224 >From: robert grzonka >X-Yahoo-Profile: bobbygrz >Mailing-List: list schaumburg_area_freecycle@yahoogroups.com; >contact schaumburg_area_freecycle-owner@yahoogroups.com >Delivered-To: mailing list schaumburg_area_freecycle@yahoogroups.com >List-Unsubscribe: > >Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:13:32 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: [schaumburg_area_freecycle] Reoffer....Old computer...Complete >Reply-To: bett.bob@sbcglobal.net > > >This was not picked up as promised. It is a 1981 IBM model 5151. I >think the monitor was green screen.It was packed away about 12years. >It did work then. Thanks Bob > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> >$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. >http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/rcTolB/TM >--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/schaumburg_area_freecycle/ > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > schaumburg_area_freecycle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > -- bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From waisun.chia at hp.com Fri Oct 8 02:47:21 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-8/M AC input for 240VAC? In-Reply-To: <001f01c4abe8$c3b68e60$2201a8c0@finans> References: <002a01c4abde$f8e36cc0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> <001f01c4abe8$c3b68e60$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <41664609.707@hp.com> Hello list, Just finished my H786 restoration on my BA11-N box (thanks Tony!) and now moving on the my PDP-8/M. First things first, how do you convert between 115/240VAC on the -8/M? There are no jumpers on the transformer and AFAIK the H740 is not a ferro-resonant (thank $(deity)) type.. Does the 240VAC come with another AC input box (BC20-A)? If so the question now boils down to: What is the diff between a 240VAC and 115VAC BC20-A? /wai-sun From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sat Oct 9 04:06:57 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: DEC flip chips Message-ID: <200410090906.FAA08025@ss10.danlan.com> I have the following flip chips. If anyone needs any specific modules, please let me know. (I already have someone to take them all/what's left.) Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com A 607x1 B 163x2 G 222x16 223x4 100x7 613A/614Ax1 823x1 825x1 829x2 848x1 853x1 882x4 R/S 002x10 107x17 111x8 113x12 123x8 202x16 203x9 302x2 303x3 401x1 409x1 602x2 603x5 W 010x8 033x2 050x1 051x3 103x10 104x3 107x6 500x3 520x1 640x4 700x3 714Ax1 800x2 M 002x5 103x2 104x3 111x8 112x6 113x22 115x8 117x9 119x17 121x15 133x4 135x1 149x11 160x1 161x1 203x2 204x2 207x8 212x13 216x24 223x5 240x3 302x3 311x3 312x3 401x1 405x1 420x1 500x6 510x19 602x4 611x2 606x7 617x1 622x25 627x6 632x6 776x1 786x1 909x4 910x1 911x2 966x2 From fordms at gte.net Sat Oct 9 11:11:51 2004 From: fordms at gte.net (Mark or Tami Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Diversified Numeric Applications (DNA) Message-ID: <41680DC7.7030108@gte.net> Greetings. I have a Diversified Numeric Applications MED16/Multiprocessor computer built in 1971, I think. It is a 16-bit machine with 16k of core memory, a 64track magnetic drum, switch console, analog input module, a serial MUX, paper tape reader. I used to have a removeable disk pack unit and drum printer, but they are gone. I do have an engineering manual with schematics, and a book of diagnostic program listings. I've had to 'repackage' the major components into a different 19" rack. The CPU, MUX, and DISC controller bays are wire-wrapped 9000-series TTL logic. It's very cool. I'd be interested in any information about this machine, and hopefully anyone else who has one. fordms@gte.net From don-jacque at comcast.net Sat Oct 9 11:51:17 2004 From: don-jacque at comcast.net (Don and Jacque Joyce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Mac Parts Message-ID: <001801c4ae20$3573bb20$6500a8c0@JacqueXP> I am interested in a couple of the Mac local talk or phoneNet terminatiors. If you still have any. Let me know how much and availability. Thanks Don Joyce Don-jacque@comcast.net From res20nop at verizon.net Sat Oct 9 17:47:39 2004 From: res20nop at verizon.net (Sharon & Ken Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: KSR33 Message-ID: <20041009224740.CUIC28066.out012.verizon.net@Vagabond> Hello Tony, I found a request on the internet today but the posting was made over a year ago. I wish I would have seen it then because I have this thing that I want to get rid of. It is a KSR33 Teletype with the interface converted to RS-232. It is still in working order but probably needs a new ribbon after sitting for at least 20 Years. I also have other vintage equipment that used to be connected to the teletype. It is an old PDP11-05 (DEC). Let me know if you are interested. Ken From half_eaten at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 15:02:40 2004 From: half_eaten at yahoo.com (Mike Chambers) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: your osborne 1 machine Message-ID: <20041010200240.36300.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com> omg... i know you posted abot your ebay auction for your osborne 2 years ago, but you wouldn't happen to still have software for it would you?? i know this is a long shot, but ive been looking for software for this thing for years. i can't even boot it up because i have no disks for it. thanks for your reply! -Mike --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! From mehditk2 at juno.com Sun Oct 10 22:51:51 2004 From: mehditk2 at juno.com (mehditk2@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Boot Rom for KDF11-BA Message-ID: <20041010.205201.22523.1252062@webmail16.lax.untd.com> Hi, Does anyone have a KDF11-B3 boot rom or any other version which can boot RX33 or an MSCP device on my KDF11-BA. I will pay for that and I will be very thankful since I have not to buy a Eprom programmer to burn the immages. From KParker at workcover.com Mon Oct 11 00:28:47 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Serial Port Expanders Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7F12@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I've got PC-MOS/386 and wonder if serial port expanders for a 386 or 486 can still be sourced. A hunt of the net opened a minefield of such devices - hoping I can get some help from this list. TIA!!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From nbreeden2 at comcast.net Mon Oct 11 23:50:49 2004 From: nbreeden2 at comcast.net (Neil Breeden II) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? In-Reply-To: <200410120423.i9C4NBda017316@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200410120510.i9C5ALdU017485@huey.classiccmp.org> Dave, You are correct that BREAK at power up will bypass the attempt to boot from floppy, the Cass? / Memory? Prompts here are normal. You are correct that without the floppy controller it will boot directly to BASIC in ROM. Again Cass? And Memory are normal. Cass? is asking for the cassette baud rate (L=500Baud or H=1500Baud). Memory? Reserves high memory for use by drivers etc. When the system at startup says 'Diskette?' it thinks it's sensing a disk in the drive, for me this typically happens when the drive door is open with a disk in the drive. The best web site for info, docs and software is http://www.trs-80.com/, you should find the service and disk owners manuals for download. Ira can send you bootable floppies for the system; he's great to work with and knows a lot about these old systems. When I power up my Model III I hear the heads step back to track 0 thus you are correct that this should happen. I'm more familiar with the MODEL III however I believe the following applies to the MODEL 4 as well: When you removed the floppy drive for cleaning did you reconnect it to the same position on the floppy cable? (Cable position defines the drive number!) Assuming this is a standard RS floppy controller and cable then the following is true: Radio Shack removed pins from the floppy drive connector on the cable to control selecting the drive (typically either DS0/DS2 or DS1/DS3 will be missing on the floppy controller side of the cable), they jumper DS0-DS3 as all active on the disk drives (if you reset this then turn them all back on). The internal floppy connector brings only DS0 and DS1 out. The external connector brings DS2 out as DS0 and DS3 out as DS1. Again this is ONLY 100% true for RS controllers, some 3rd party controllers used normal pinouts on the connectors so your mileage may vary. The LAST drive on the floppy cable MUST be terminated (150 ohm typically) otherwise the drives won't work. Finally - if the drive is ALWAYS selected with the power on them you have one of the cables on upside down, most likely the end to the controller PCB as it's typically not keyed. Hope something here helps. :) -Neil ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:45:57 -0400 From: Dave Dunfield Subject: TRS-80 (IV) help? To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20041012014553.YBKR14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Guys, Picked up another big load this weekend, and am just starting to go through it - Item#1 is a TRS-80 Model IV. When I first powered it up, it sucked on the Empty bottom drive for a couple of seconds, then prompted with "Cass?" and entered ROM basic. Tried a Model IV boot disk and go the same result - so I removed the drive and cleaned it (machine has been sitting a long time). Now, it powers up, selects the drive and "hangs" - does not move on to the "Cass?" prompt - I've checked all connections and socketed chips, and everything is clean and looks OK. Have reseated everthing several times. A few of observations: - If I hold RESET while I power up the machine, the drive motors still come on, but I do not get a select - the select appears to be happening under software control. - If I disconnect the disk controller board ribbon cable, the machine powers up at the "Cass?" prompt - in this case, I believe the ROM startup sees that there is no disk system and enters ROM basic, thinking that it is a diskless unit. - If I power-up/reset while holding BREAK, it also gives the "Cass?" prompt - after briefly selecting the drive - looks like BREAK very soon after power-up can interrupt the boot process, and ROM BASIC comes up normally. - I never see the drive seek - it selects, but does not seek. If I manually move the drive head out during power-off, it DOES NOT seek back to track-0 after selecting the drive when I power it on. - Twice so far in a couple of hours of working on it, I have seen the prompt "Diskette?" (no cursor) after powering on the machine (with disk controller connected and not holding BREAK). I cannot make this prompt come up reliably. It looks to me as if something in it's interaction with the disk controller is hanging the machine. Anyone here knowlegable in TRS-80's? Can anyone tell me what the Model IV is *SUPPOSED* to do on power-up, both with and without a boot disk in the drive (I have no documentation at all). Any pointers to service documentation? ROM listings? Other information on servicing a model IV - any idea how I can further diagnose this problem? Any help at all would be greatly appreciated! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html *************** From frank.palazzolo at mcm1.com Wed Oct 13 11:55:24 2004 From: frank.palazzolo at mcm1.com (Frank Palazzolo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) Message-ID: <004201c4b145$721adf40$1600100a@Frank> Stan, FWIW - The one I bought on eBay worked for a few minutes and then blew the 12v regulator on the video board. After that - no video or raster. I replaced it and it's worked fine ever since. I'm still not sure why it failed - the 12V regulator tends to run pretty warm/hot based on the circuit, but I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it. -Frank From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 13 14:36:45 2004 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: 8279 Datasheet Message-ID: <416D83CD.8040704@xs4all.nl> > I'm looking for a datasheet for an 8279 chip (Keyboard / LED > controller), I > haven't found anything useful on the net. A PDF of the original Intel > datasheet would be preferred. > Thanks > -Neil See http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/8279.pdf for a short three page datasheet. From the 1981 Intel Component Data Catalog. Fred Jan Kraan From mauricio_araujo at uol.com.br Thu Oct 14 12:27:25 2004 From: mauricio_araujo at uol.com.br (Mauricio R. Araujo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive Message-ID: <000501c4b213$219d82b0$0100a8c0@nome9qdzofpy2n> Dear Sir, my name is Mauricio R. araujo, retired avionics instructor. I found your message concerning this subject surfing on internet. I?m interesting about 3400 floppy Drive . could you please send any informations ?(Sorry for my English...) Mauricio From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu Thu Oct 14 15:30:57 2004 From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet Message-ID: <200410142030.i9EKUvh14527@opihi.ucsd.edu> > From: Ron Hudson > Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:24:39 -0700 > Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet > > I need a macintosh telnet (either OS X or OS 9 ) to connect to my > PDP11 simulator. I have tried the simulator that comes with OS X, > and another called iTerm. Both are ok for most stuff but don't work > well for vt50dpy, an RSTS system status monitor. This does work well > on the HP terminal I have (while its emulating a vt100.) Let me suggest C-Kermit < http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ > which is available for OS X. It does an excellent vt100 emulation, and also does telnet and other protocols. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst@ucsd.edu From david at dynamicconcepts.us Thu Oct 14 18:10:36 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Rescue... Message-ID: Looks like I may be doing a rescue of the following in Eastern Conn.... It is a VAX 6000/610. 2 cabinets, approx 1000 lbs total weight. 2 CPU CMD Technologies DSSI controller ethernet capable comes with up to a dozen 2 gig drives( formatted) covers for the empty drive bays pretty sure that it is 208 volt single phase, although the drive cabinet has a 120v 30 amp twist lock connector on the cable. I dont know if this plugs into the CPU cabinets PSU or what. VMS docs and manuals The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. Without debating the merits of this trade, let me just say that it will not be good financially So....What do I do????? From jmartinson at martinsound.com Tue Oct 12 08:14:25 2004 From: jmartinson at martinsound.com (joe martinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Setup disk for HP Vectra ES? Message-ID: <004801c4b05d$6904dcf0$220110ac@jmartinsonws> Hey, I have a copy of the setup program for the Vectra ES 12 computers. Do you still need it? Do you still have the HP 82321 Basic Language Processor cards and would you like to sell them? Joe Martinson President Martinsound Inc. 1151 W. Valley Blvd. Alhambra, Ca. 91803-2493 www.martinsound.com email: jmartinson@martinsound.com Phone: (626) 281-3555 Ext. 101 Fax: (626) 284-3092 From g-wright at att.net Tue Oct 12 11:41:29 2004 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP 11/60 Kd11-K Manual + TE-11 manual Message-ID: <101220041641.4826.416C09390003419B000012DA21603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi I'm working on my PDP 11/60's and need info on the processor set. The 1st board has LED's and thats a starting point if anyone knows the status of the the LED's would be helpful. Or a source for a on-line copy of the manual. ?? (kd11-k, m7872 1st board) The second item is a maintiance manual on a TE-11 tape drive. These look like a real challenge. ( Not sure if the TE-16 is close enough) I don't have either manual. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. 800-292-6370 From tuban at cisco.com Tue Oct 12 13:55:01 2004 From: tuban at cisco.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: LF: Western Digital 1793 or compatible FDC chip Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20041012135454.02474d60@ubanproductions.com> Hi Dave, You can still buy 1793s new from BGMicro for $4.49. Look on page 8 of their catalog: http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/catalog.pdf Cheers! --tom At 02:34 PM 10/12/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I have determined that the problem with my TRS-80 Model IV is a bad >disk controller chip... > >Unfortunately I don't have a spare - does anyone here have an extra >Western Digital 1793 (or compatible) FDC chip? > >I have no trouble sucking it off of a board if necessary. > >Am located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada, but will pay shipping costs >from "most anywhere". > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From glennm at REPAIRGROUP.CO.NZ Tue Oct 12 15:13:37 2004 From: glennm at REPAIRGROUP.CO.NZ (Glenn McCarthy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: OMT MFM 5200 disk controller board Message-ID: <301C177E6F8A5D43BE51EF08C235B3620B48BA@rg0.REPAIRGROUP.CO.NZ> I have read on a message board, you have a schematic for the OMTI 5200 SCSI -> IDE/FLOPPY converter boards. We are supporting an old Telecommunications system which uses this board in the Hard Drive controllers. We are searching for any information related to these boards, and would appreciate any information you could provide us. We are also looking to purchase the boards complete, would you know of a source? Thank you for your time. Glenn McCarthy Technician Repair Group Limited PH +64 7 850-4630 FAX +64 7 849-7722 E-Mail glenn.mccarthy@repairgroup.co.nz From oldchevy at mac.com Tue Oct 12 17:49:37 2004 From: oldchevy at mac.com (Carl Camp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: 8279 Datasheet In-Reply-To: <200410070441.i974f1n9095593@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200410070441.i974f1n9095593@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I was going to do the usuall of deleting all these emails, because I'm always overloaded with info when I noticed yours. I just happen to have an old Intel Data book. The complete specs are 13 pages, I'll start working on getting a PDF for you, what do you need right now. Let me know, CW Camp On Oct 6, 2004, at 9:22 PM, Neil Breeden wrote: > I'm looking for a datasheet for an 8279 chip (Keyboard / LED > controller), I > haven't found anything useful on the net. A PDF of the original Intel > datasheet would be preferred. > Thanks > -Neil > From wizardfz at earthlink.net Tue Oct 12 20:22:53 2004 From: wizardfz at earthlink.net (Fred Zeiher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Structured design SD 20 Message-ID: <007d01c4b0c4$43ac4b20$7a88b93f@main> Just roaming around the internet and ran across your thread---- Structured Design: I have an SD 20/24 s/n 2197 ------ bought it new at my old company in 1986, I believe-- It has been in a locker for about 15 years----and yeah, no software that I could find, as of late --my company is "gone", but I have the unit---- Works??? on powerup--busy light for a few milliseconds and then a green pass light----- it hasnt been abused---or even used, in years---i.e."good shape" 24 pin ZIF socket, --you guys are talking about a 20 pin unit, I think?--- 3 buttons ---verify, load , program 3 LED's busy, fail, pass We did lots of GAL's on it---- 20V10 series, I have original GAL handbook, from Lattice also we started doing hundreds of 16L8's and such from MMI, as well, back in 1986,7,8 and then went to the GAL's when they became "the thing"--- The hardware design changes were killing us in the early project phase--we burnt up 200 at a time with a particular minor hardware rev. and I also have *** 18 "magnetic wafers" --- for the drive, in the unit and *** "original" PALASM 4 (from AMD) on 5 floppys, version 1.1a-- I checked, and all read "a directory structure" ---2 thru 5 are all ZIP files and a pile of PAL's,GALS, EPLD's which were from various sources---a lot of optical reprogrammable---samsung some bigger than 24 pins, etc--I believe none are programmed, but I can't assure myself a few of the non-opticals are not used--- and, so they may not all apply to this programmer, obviously greater than 24 pins in some cases---- anyone interested? Also--- Brand spanking new (old stock)----- still in the box, in the plastic bag: Spectronics Spectroline PE-14T UV EPROM eraser with the slideout tray for devices "size of a carton of cigarettes" Looks like it was never turned on---so I did --timer 1 hour -----works, UV lamp ------works, Pull out drawer, UV turns off----works? no holes in the black foam pad--couldnt have been used and the original tech bulletin which tells you info on use of unit---energies of erasure, etc we bought 2 in 1986 and sent the second one (this one) into the stock room, as a spare, and I found it in cleaning the shelves when we shut the doors-in 2001---- Also , B+C Microsystems 1409-PL.8 EPROM Programmer--open frameunit----- version 10 firmware ---------40 and 28 pin ZIF sockets version 10.0 on 5 1/4 floppy for DOS and version 3.2 on 3 1/2 for mac drivers Program light blinks 4 times on powerup--i.e. passes selftest---- And "The Book"--technical manual for the unit--build info--schematics It also does all those 87xx smart controllers and , of course, 2716--->27011 See BYTE magazine article MAY 1986, page 279 for info and again, a pile of EPROMS with windows-----25,7----> 16, 32, 64, 256, 512, 1024 value--->???? I dont know--make me an offer? Im a heavy duty Test Equipment designer guy, at this point---- excuse me for rambling-- any interest send me an email to: wizardfz@earthlink.net From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 14 18:52:54 2004 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <416F1156.nail1TY17WKZF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I > suppose vt50dpy makes more use of the terminal control codes. Judging by the name of the program... what you really want is a VT50 emulator? IIRC VT50 is a subset of VT52. > though they say they are vt100 compatible, they still spew garbage A real VT100 does a good job of emulating a VT52. Kermit does a pretty good job too, but you may have to specifically set it to VT52 mode. Tm. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 16 04:50:14 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Serial Port Expanders References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7F12@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <001a01c4b365$89e39a00$2201a8c0@finans> Are you thinking of adapters with e.g. 4 extra com ports ? I have some 8-bit EISA cards (4 ports) and a PCI card from LAVA with 2 ports. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker, Kevin" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Serial Port Expanders > I've got PC-MOS/386 and wonder if serial port expanders for a 386 or 486 can still be sourced. A hunt of the net opened a minefield of such devices - hoping I can get some help from this list. > > TIA!!!! > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > m: 0418 806 166 > e: kparker@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > > ++++++++++ > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 07-10-2004 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 15 18:36:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: [BBC-Micro] Signitures In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "RE: [BBC-Micro] Signitures" (Oct 15, 18:30) References: <8F55B1918087D4118BCB00508B0CCEBB0AADFBF2@cvntex02.rohr.com> <1097865014.809.5.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10410160036.ZM3078@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15 2004, 18:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-10-15 at 10:36 -0700, Saddler, Chris wrote: > > Returning to the original OT subject of this thread, where are the rigid > > rules of news group message format defined? > > Do you mean news (i.e. usenet), or email? > > Email seems to be covered by RFC822, and news (the message format) by > RFC1036 - however a quick glance doesn't show either of them to mention > anything about signatures. I think it's just something of an unspoken > standard that '--' on a line by itself is a signature separator - but as > far as I can tell there's nothing in the specs to say that, nor the > actual purpose of the signature... It's not "--" but "-- ", and must be immediately preceeded and followed by a newline. It appears in RFC2646 as a "convention" -- but it's worth remembering that RFCs are not (mostly) standards either -- just conventions. There's a document called "son of RFC1036" which is the basis that almost all modern newsreaders follow, anmd you'll find the sig separator described in there. "son of RFC1036" was written, mainly by Henry Spencer, one of the original authors of RFC1036, because there are some errors/inconsistencies in RFC1036 which needed addressed; there's also a widely-used document called the GNKSA (Good NetKeeping Seal of Approval) where it appears as section 15. Both of these were the result of much discussion on Usenet and appeared because although the IETF produced many drafts of a successor to RFC1036, none were ever finalised. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Oct 16 08:36:04 2004 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: FS: PDP-9 brochure Message-ID: <0m82n0d6tbj8u0g6j4o0s2ovi7gn1893lb@4ax.com> I was digging through some old papers and came across a 48-page advertising brochure for the PDP-9, in great condition except it's slightly "buckled" from sitting sideways in the box. It's called "PDP-9, The Serious Computer" dated 11/67. I can email pictures. Anyone interested? I have no idea if it's worth anything to anyone but if so I'd at least like to break even on the postage ;) thanks Charles From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 16 09:03:28 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: 8279 Datasheet References: <200410070441.i974f1n9095593@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <003901c4b388$e9ea7f40$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > I'm looking for a datasheet for an 8279 chip (Keyboard / LED controller), I > haven't found anything useful on the net. A PDF of the original Intel > datasheet would be preferred. > Thanks > -Neil I got one here: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/download.php?pi=311827 From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Oct 16 09:08:48 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: FS: PDP-9 brochure In-Reply-To: <0m82n0d6tbj8u0g6j4o0s2ovi7gn1893lb@4ax.com> Message-ID: Charles wrote thus: > I was digging through some old papers and came across a 48-page > advertising brochure for the PDP-9, in great condition except it's > slightly "buckled" from sitting sideways in the box. It's called > "PDP-9, The Serious Computer" dated 11/67. I can email pictures. > > Anyone interested? I have no idea if it's worth anything to anyone > but if so I'd at least like to break even on the postage ;) Well, I'm interested; I don't know that much about the -9s, and late-'60s DECs are the ones I'm most curious about. I also suspect I'm not the only one who'd be interested. :) If nobody else with a greater interest appears, I'd throw $10.00 your way for it. More to the point, though, would whoever ends up with it be willing to scan it and post a copy to Bitsavers for the rest of us? (And yes, I would.) -O.- From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 16 09:14:44 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Serial Port Expanders References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7F12@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <001901c4b38a$7c86e310$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I may have a spare Digiboard PC/8, isa board. It is only configured for 4 ports though. I will check this weekend and see if I still have it. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker, Kevin" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:28 AM Subject: Serial Port Expanders > I've got PC-MOS/386 and wonder if serial port expanders for a 386 or 486 > can still be sourced. A hunt of the net opened a minefield of such > devices - hoping I can get some help from this list. > > TIA!!!! > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > m: 0418 806 166 > e: kparker@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > > ++++++++++ > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > > > From m_thompson at ids.net Sat Oct 16 08:22:18 2004 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP 11/70: MK11 memory crate, M9312 cards, and wiring... In-Reply-To: <1097438464.25097.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20041016092218.00f8f158@155.212.1.107> >Heh - I was staring at DEC engineering drawings for hours and it was >giving me a headache! I need to look at all the info for the memory >crate though as the CPU still isn't happy (the run lamp's permanently on >and we can't halt the CPU or toggle any data in from the front panel). >All cards look to be OK in the CPU though, but I suspect there may be a >problem with the memory... I have seen the same problem with 11/34 systems when the bus grant and interrupt daisy-chain was broken in the backplane. Are there any empty Unibus slots? Did you check that the wire-wrap jumper is in place in the non-DMA device slots? Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 16 09:05:29 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Vintage HP 5036A Microprocessor Lab 8085 c/w Book Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041016100529.00930700@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 16 10:12:08 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: KSR33 References: <20041009224740.CUIC28066.out012.verizon.net@Vagabond> Message-ID: <006e01c4b392$81c53a40$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > I also have other vintage equipment that used to be connected to the > teletype. It is an old PDP11-05 (DEC). Where is this equipment :-)? I might be interested, if it is near PDX (not really wanting to ship it). Vince From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 16 12:21:17 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PC BIOS Access Message-ID: <4171588D.CC663E43@rain.org> It might be interesting to have a list of ways that the BIOS gets accessed during startup. These are the ways that I know about; are there others I've missed? I don't recall which keys work with what BIOS and that might also be interesting information to have. * Setup disk (IBM AT) * Del key * Cntl-Alt-Insert * Cntl-Alt-S * F1 key * F2 key * F10 key (Compaq) From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 16 12:27:23 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: your osborne 1 machine Message-ID: <417159FB.42FBC44F@rain.org> Take a look on VCM (http://marketplace.vintage.org/) as I have Osbourne software up for sale. I do have boot disks for it as well although they are not up for sale. On that note, has anyone looked into the boot disk archives that Don Maslin kept? > omg... i know you posted abot your ebay auction for your osborne 2 years ago, but you wouldn't happen to still have > software for it would you?? i know this is a long shot, but ive been looking for software for this thing for years. i > can't even boot it up because i have no disks for it. thanks for your reply! > > -Mike From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 16 12:29:53 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP 11/70: MK11 memory crate, M9312 cards, and wiring... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20041016092218.00f8f158@155.212.1.107> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <3.0.5.32.20041016092218.00f8f158@155.212.1.107> Message-ID: <1097947793.2112.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 09:22 -0400, M Thompson wrote: > >Heh - I was staring at DEC engineering drawings for hours and it was > >giving me a headache! I need to look at all the info for the memory > >crate though as the CPU still isn't happy (the run lamp's permanently on > >and we can't halt the CPU or toggle any data in from the front panel). > >All cards look to be OK in the CPU though, but I suspect there may be a > >problem with the memory... > > I have seen the same problem with 11/34 systems when the bus grant and > interrupt daisy-chain was broken in the backplane. Are there any empty > Unibus slots? Did you check that the wire-wrap jumper is in place in the > non-DMA device slots? Thanks - we gave the bus a quick once-over and it looks OK, but I'll have another look and really sit and stare at it. The cards *should* be back in the places they were at when the system was last run, but I'll triple-check it :) Interesting point about the jumpers; that's something I haven't looked at at all - again it *should* be OK, but maybe something's worked loose in getting the machine into storage ten years or so ago and more recently when it was all pulled back out again... cheers, Jules From mcesari at comcast.net Sat Oct 16 12:48:13 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP 11/70: MK11 memory crate, M9312 cards, and wiring... In-Reply-To: <1097438464.25097.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113323@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <1097438464.25097.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <8D4B7DD1-1F9B-11D9-ADC4-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Oct 10, 2004, at 2:01 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Heh - I was staring at DEC engineering drawings for hours and it was > giving me a headache! I need to look at all the info for the memory > crate though as the CPU still isn't happy (the run lamp's permanently > on > and we can't halt the CPU or toggle any data in from the front panel). > All cards look to be OK in the CPU though, but I suspect there may be a > problem with the memory... > Jules, The run lamp on can also indicate a power problem of one kind or another. Check AC and DC LOW (the purple and yellow wires). If either is low, there is an issue. I bet the CPU microcode address is 0200, too. If you already haven't, terminate the unibus at the end of the backplane in the CPU cabinet. Mike From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 16 13:16:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: Diversified Numeric Applications (DNA) In-Reply-To: <41680DC7.7030108@gte.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2004, Mark or Tami Ford wrote: > Greetings. I have a Diversified Numeric Applications > MED16/Multiprocessor computer built in 1971, I think. It is a 16-bit > machine with 16k of core memory, a 64track magnetic drum, switch > console, analog input module, a serial MUX, paper tape reader. I used > to have a removeable disk pack unit and drum printer, but they are gone. > I do have an engineering manual with schematics, and a book of > diagnostic program listings. I've had to 'repackage' the major > components into a different 19" rack. The CPU, MUX, and DISC controller > bays are wire-wrapped 9000-series TTL logic. It's very cool. I'd be > interested in any information about this machine, and hopefully anyone > else who has one. fordms@gte.net A picture would be nice ;) I've never heard of this machine. Sounds interesting. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 16 13:28:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:02 2005 Subject: PC BIOS Access In-Reply-To: <4171588D.CC663E43@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > It might be interesting to have a list of ways that the BIOS gets > accessed during startup. These are the ways that I know about; are there > others I've missed? I don't recall which keys work with what BIOS and > that might also be interesting information to have. > > * Setup disk (IBM AT) > * Del key > * Cntl-Alt-Insert > * Cntl-Alt-S > * F1 key > * F2 key > * F10 key (Compaq) It would be great if there was a database of all computer models that gave this information, as well as other useful tidbits. It could be a Wiki thing, or certainly an open, public thing that people could contribute to. I hate having to go to the manufacturer's website to find out because it usually takes a few clicks and searches. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 16 13:32:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: your osborne 1 machine In-Reply-To: <417159FB.42FBC44F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > On that note, has anyone looked into the boot disk archives that Don > Maslin kept? I've not heard anything back since my inquiries. Vernon Wright claimed he would handle it and told everyone to stay away. I sent him an inquiry and he never replied. Then I was berated for being insensitive. Since then I've been too busy to check into this, but I think it's a waiting game at this point. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bmachacek at pcisys.net Sat Oct 16 13:55:51 2004 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: HP and Tandy Stuff Message-ID: <001601c4b3b1$c85eb610$0200000a@xeon> Hi: I was just given the following items for recycle/salvage and thought I would check with the board here to see if there was any interest in these items before they go to the great recycle bin in the sky. 1. One HP RZ24-S PC hard drive. It has 3200D on the label, plus some other numbers. I was given this unit, so I can't guarantee that it works, but it looks to be in excellent condition. 2. One Tandy memory board with 8-1MB 90ns memory sticks on it. It has several numbers on it and I'll list a few. 1700 361 Rev. D, 0508 LEIU 7V, 1990 (year of manufacture?), P/N 870-9838, 889-9216200. Again I was given this unit so don't know for sure if everything is OK with it, but it also looks to be in excellent condition. Let me know is there is any interest in either of these items and for a few bucks plus shipping costs it can be yours. I will be glad to answer any questions on either of these items, just email me. Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 16 14:10:38 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Boot Rom for KDF11-BA In-Reply-To: "mehditk2@juno.com" "Boot Rom for KDF11-BA" (Oct 11, 3:51) References: <20041010.205201.22523.1252062@webmail16.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <10410162010.ZM4025@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 11 2004, 3:51, mehditk2@juno.com wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have a KDF11-B3 boot rom or any other version which > can boot RX33 or an MSCP device on my KDF11-BA. I will pay for > that and I will be very thankful since I have not to buy a Eprom > programmer to burn the immages. KDF11-B3 isn't one ROM, it's an upgrade kit consisting of two EPROMs plus instructions. It's more usual to refer to the ROMs themselves by the actual numbers or the processor suffix. The ROMs in the -B3 kit are 23-183E4 and 23-184E4, as far as I remember; that's the -BF version, but most versions of the KDF11 ROMs work with MSCP devices. For example, people have used RD31 drives on an RQDX3 with -BE ROMs, although it wasn't officially supported until -BG. The next version was 23-380E4 and 23-381E4, which would make the processor a KDF11-BG. There's a list of ROMs at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ (see the file called ROMlist). You can see which revisions officially support various MSCP devices in Micronote 43, which you can find in various places including http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote43.txt BTW, the EPROMs for a KDF11-B are unusual 24-pin 8Kx8 devices; normal 2764-style 8Kx8 devices will not do because they're 28-pin. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sat Oct 16 15:43:19 2004 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82@wmconnect.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: your osborne 1 machine Message-ID: Hi, Mike if you check with these people they have boot disk for the Osborne. DYNACOMP,Inc. 4768 Route 89 Romulus, NY. 14541 Use this number (7103932193) on Ebay the you can get the phone number, mans name is Fred. info@DynacompSoftware.com this is there link. Good luck, Al DePermentier They also have a lot of manuals on CD's. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 16 16:14:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: PC BIOS Access In-Reply-To: References: <4171588D.CC663E43@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041016171432.008eb700@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:28 AM 10/16/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> It might be interesting to have a list of ways that the BIOS gets >> accessed during startup. These are the ways that I know about; are there >> others I've missed? I don't recall which keys work with what BIOS and >> that might also be interesting information to have. >> >> * Setup disk (IBM AT) >> * Del key >> * Cntl-Alt-Insert >> * Cntl-Alt-S >> * F1 key >> * F2 key >> * F10 key (Compaq) > >It would be great if there was a database of all computer models that gave >this information, as well as other useful tidbits. It could be a Wiki >thing, or certainly an open, public thing that people could contribute >to. It would be nice if they could post the unique setup programs there too. Joe > >I hate having to go to the manufacturer's website to find out because it >usually takes a few clicks and searches. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From bnansel at verizon.net Sat Oct 16 11:41:05 2004 From: bnansel at verizon.net (Bobby Nansel and Shoshana Kaminsky) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: 8-track tape drives? Message-ID: <2C8100D1-1F92-11D9-AA6B-000A959B94EA@verizon.net> About twenty years ago I bought a dual tape drive "mass" storage peripheral from a surplus outfit, United Products in Seattle. It was for a long defunct personal computer of the '70s. The computer (which I only ever saw in a few ca. 1978 ads in Byte) was an 8080-based system, and I think it was billed as having color video graphics capability. I don't remember the name of the company. Anyway, the distinguishing characteristic of the system was the tape drive unit used modified 8-track tape decks. That's right, 8-track *audio* cartridges, the kind people make so much fun of these days. The drive was housed in a blue metal enclosure with a black vacu-formed plastic bezel for the two "drives." It had a DB-25 connector on the back, though it definitely wasn't a standard RS232 interface. As I recall, the tape head assembly in each drive had four read/write coils, and it could move to one of two positions, up or down, thus giving eight tracks total. Presumably this was to decrease the "seek" time. I managed to trace through the circuit well enough to figure out how to write and read back serial data on tape, at about 2400 bps, as I recall. I had some fun hooking it up to a C64 in the lab to prove the thing was actually working. I kept threatening a co-worker that I was going to write a driver for the monstrosity to use on the lab's CP/M machines. He had just built a Slicer, a 80186 SBC that was popular for a few years in the mid-eighties, and the thought of such a kludge horrified him. Heh. I foolishly sold the dual tape drive and all my notes at a Seattle Robotics Society auction sometime around 1989. I've done some poking around on the web recently, but I have found zip about this machine. Has anyone ever seen one of these tape drives? I actually have a project that, perversely, requires something like this. -RLN From rimmer at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 16 13:55:18 2004 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Various vintage stuff for sale Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041016205345.026ae940@pop.xs4all.nl> I am cleaning our my collection and am putting it all up for sale on my website. List is growing weekly since I have to move in a while and a lot of stuff has to go. You can find it under "For Sale" at http://www.oldcomputercollection.com Cheers, Stefan. From allain at panix.com Sat Oct 16 18:16:26 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Rescue... References: Message-ID: <00f101c4b3d6$2a366e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Looks like I may be doing a rescue... When are you going to make the transfer? I ask this only because the owner, Bob, tells me that he thinks someone (you?) has already committed. > The bad news, if that I try to keep it, I will lose the wife. I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to Bob D. I'd go in some moderate amount with you for a "VAX clubhouse" or more likely a large storeroom with power, if there are such things. If the taker is in fact not you then... problem solved! John A. this is all of course crazy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 17:42:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Commodore PET 4032 problem (4 beeps) In-Reply-To: <41642743.1556.BC88730@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at Oct 6, 4 05:11:31 pm Message-ID: > > First, make sure the monitor is working (There's a > > brightness control on the back which may have been > > We played with that control ... no change (i.e., nothing > visible of any kind on the monitor). _My_ next moves would be to look at the sync and video output signals from the logic board with a 'scope (to make sure the video side is doing something), then to take the back off the monitor section and see if the CRT voltages look sane. And see if the heater is glowing. Of course this assumes you have access to test equipment and know what to look for inside a monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 17:48:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: OMT MFM 5200 disk controller board In-Reply-To: <301C177E6F8A5D43BE51EF08C235B3620B48BA@rg0.REPAIRGROUP.CO.NZ> from "Glenn McCarthy" at Oct 13, 4 09:13:37 am Message-ID: This mayt be aimed at me -- you have posted to a large mailing list.... > > I have read on a message board, you have a schematic for the OMTI 5200 > SCSI -> IDE/FLOPPY converter boards. The Omti 5000 series that I know about are SCSI to ST506 (not IDE) and floppy. Oh, and some of them have QIC-02 tape interfaces too.. I have a reverse-engineered schematic of this board (nothing official), but no scanner, and thus no easy way to get it to you. But if you get no other help, I am sure something can be done... -tony From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Oct 16 18:45:00 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Looking for Motorola MC14500B ICU Handbook (dead tree, PDF, whatever) Message-ID: <4171B27C.7040108@jcwren.com> I'm looking for a copy of the Motorola MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook. If anyone has a copy they'd like to part with (sell, give), or loan for scanning, I'd be greatly appreciative (I'll cover postage both ways). --jc From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 16 18:59:43 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Various vintage stuff for sale In-Reply-To: Stefan "Various vintage stuff for sale" (Oct 16, 20:55) References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041016205345.026ae940@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <10410170059.ZM4227@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 16 2004, 20:55, Stefan wrote: > I am cleaning our my collection and am putting it all up for sale on my > website. > List is growing weekly since I have to move in a while and a lot of stuff > has to go. > You can find it under "For Sale" at http://www.oldcomputercollection.com I get a frame saying "This page uses frames, but your browser doesn't support them." Well, it (Netscape) does. Your code is broken :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Oct 16 19:29:40 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS Message-ID: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> I have been ready for 20 years to dump "Uncle Bill" but every time I try to switch to Linux I run into problems that seem insurmountable. Recently I have been looking at the Linspire line of products...Lindows in particular. It looks like what I need, BUT....just as always, when I ask about compatibility with the various applications that I now run under XP I get the same run-around. "Get it and try with Wine and see if it works." If I have to get drunk first, I am not interested...#8-) I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a chance that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). I don't want to have to go out and buy an all new set of apps. That makes the relatively low price of Lindows immaterial. And besides, all my files would likely be incompatible so I lose all my old data unless I keep two machines. Also, I use Netscape for browser and E Mail and I have tons of mail files and bookmarks that I would have to figure out how to get over to Lindows...Unless Netscape will run under Lindows. ???? I know there are free apps that can do word processing and spreadsheets and photo processing, but they appear to be "stripped down" versions. I can network the old and new computers ( I already have the LAN in operation with two MS OS computers on it) then I could download all my files and programs into the new computer....IF I COULD BE SURE that they would work with the Lindows OS. Spending $49 to try what might be a failure is NOT an option. Does anyone have any suggestions other than buy it and hope it works? From john at guntersville.net Sat Oct 16 19:43:16 2004 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> Message-ID: <4171C024.235528AC@guntersville.net> Apparently you haven't investigated Linux to any real extent. Google for Konppix and get their ISO image. It will run from the cd and can be installed to your hard disk. Forget wine and windows emulation, look at open office for your word processor and spread sheet. There are applications that will build .pdf files and most other stuff in the Linux distributions, you just have to look for them. Jim Isbell wrote: > > I have been ready for 20 years to dump "Uncle Bill" but every time I > try to switch to Linux I run into problems that seem insurmountable. > > Recently I have been looking at the Linspire line of products...Lindows > in particular. It looks like what I need, BUT....just as always, when I > ask about compatibility with the various applications that I now run > under XP I get the same run-around. "Get it and try with Wine and see > if it works." If I have to get drunk first, I am not interested...#8-) > > I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a > chance that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF > creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 > which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not > compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). > > I don't want to have to go out and buy an all new set of apps. That > makes the relatively low price of Lindows immaterial. And besides, all > my files would likely be incompatible so I lose all my old data unless I > keep two machines. Also, I use Netscape for browser and E Mail and I > have tons of mail files and bookmarks that I would have to figure out > how to get over to Lindows...Unless Netscape will run under Lindows. ???? > > I know there are free apps that can do word processing and spreadsheets > and photo processing, but they appear to be "stripped down" versions. > > I can network the old and new computers ( I already have the LAN in > operation with two MS OS computers on it) then I could download all my > files and programs into the new computer....IF I COULD BE SURE that they > would work with the Lindows OS. Spending $49 to try what might be a > failure is NOT an option. > > Does anyone have any suggestions other than buy it and hope it works? From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Oct 16 20:04:18 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171C024.235528AC@guntersville.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <4171C024.235528AC@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <4171C512.8090601@cableone.net> The question remains, will the files I have, Gigabytes of them, made by Easy Office and Easy Calc and Netscape...etc. Be readable by the new APPS. If not then it is worthless to get new apps no mater the price. I don't need a new clean computer. I am not starting from scratch. I need a computer that will read 20 years of files. That is where MY data is located. "Uncle Bill" has me by the balls until I find an OS that can either read or convert my existing files. John C. Ellingboe wrote: >Apparently you haven't investigated Linux to any real extent. Google >for Konppix and get their ISO image. It will run from the cd and can be >installed to your hard disk. Forget wine and windows emulation, look at >open office for your word processor and spread sheet. There are >applications that will build .pdf files and most other stuff in the >Linux distributions, you just have to look for them. > > >Jim Isbell wrote: > > >>I have been ready for 20 years to dump "Uncle Bill" but every time I >>try to switch to Linux I run into problems that seem insurmountable. >> >>Recently I have been looking at the Linspire line of products...Lindows >>in particular. It looks like what I need, BUT....just as always, when I >>ask about compatibility with the various applications that I now run >>under XP I get the same run-around. "Get it and try with Wine and see >>if it works." If I have to get drunk first, I am not interested...#8-) >> >>I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a >>chance that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF >>creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 >>which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not >>compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). >> >>I don't want to have to go out and buy an all new set of apps. That >>makes the relatively low price of Lindows immaterial. And besides, all >>my files would likely be incompatible so I lose all my old data unless I >>keep two machines. Also, I use Netscape for browser and E Mail and I >>have tons of mail files and bookmarks that I would have to figure out >>how to get over to Lindows...Unless Netscape will run under Lindows. ???? >> >>I know there are free apps that can do word processing and spreadsheets >>and photo processing, but they appear to be "stripped down" versions. >> >>I can network the old and new computers ( I already have the LAN in >>operation with two MS OS computers on it) then I could download all my >>files and programs into the new computer....IF I COULD BE SURE that they >>would work with the Lindows OS. Spending $49 to try what might be a >>failure is NOT an option. >> >>Does anyone have any suggestions other than buy it and hope it works? >> From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 16 20:17:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > I have been ready for 20 years to dump "Uncle Bill" but every time I try to > switch to Linux I run into problems that seem insurmountable. > > Recently I have been looking at the Linspire line of products...Lindows in > particular. It looks like what I need, BUT....just as always, when I ask > about compatibility with the various applications that I now run under XP I > get the same run-around. "Get it and try with Wine and see if it works." If > I have to get drunk first, I am not interested...#8-) > > I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a chance > that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF creator, Adobe Photo > Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 which contains all my data > in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not compatible with Excel (even though they > are supposed to be). You need to think in terms of using native linux apps instead of trying to run windows apps. Things run better "native". The thing with unix/linux is there are many cooperative ways to solve a given problem, it's not a competitive my-program-locks-out-yours environment. There are many ways to create PDFs on linux. Unless you are precisely wedded to PhotoShop filters for professional purposes, GIMP does most of what PhotoShop does. Netscape and browsers aren't an issue, there's many well-supported and compatible browsers. There are occasional idiot web programmers who write code to look for "windows" in the http data. OpenOffice is so totally close to Word and Excel (and apparently now powerpoint) that incompativilities are not much of an issue. I ran into one spreadsheet that ran on Excel that did not on OpenOffice -- it did something like i+"3" and should have been i+3 eg. the quotes meant text but Excel did arith anyways. > I don't want to have to go out and buy an all new set of apps. They're all free! I dont know about this Lindows stuff, it sounds like hey want to lock you in. Go with SuSE linux or Debian or someone that gives you the whole thing on CD/DVD. > And besides, all my files would > likely be incompatible so I lose all my old data unless I keep two machines. I find only the opposite -- Windows doesn't like aliens. Linux/unix doesn't mind. I edit and save word 2000/XP documents all the time. > I know there are free apps that can do word processing and spreadsheets and > photo processing, but they appear to be "stripped down" versions. Check out OpenOffice. > Does anyone have any suggestions other than buy it and hope it works? Use a real unix/linux and you'll be much happier. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Oct 16 20:18:52 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C17@mail.catcorner.org> Jim Isbell wrote: >"Uncle Bill" has me by the balls until I find an OS that >can either read or convert my existing files. snip >>creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 >>which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not >>compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). >> Actually it sounds like Easy Office 2001 is the one crimping your conversion. There are plenty of Linux tools that will do what Adobe Photoshop does, if it doesn't run in the emulators. Same for PDF file creation and manipulation. The Netscape mail files will convert over pretty easily. I've done that several times myself for various people. However, if "Easy Office 2001" is your choice for spreadsheet and word processing files, then talk to the people at www.e-press.com. And if you only have the free version, then I wouldn't expect too much in the way of support. Just my $0.02... Kelly From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 16 20:23:15 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171C512.8090601@cableone.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <4171C024.235528AC@guntersville.net> <4171C512.8090601@cableone.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, Jim Isbell wrote: > The question remains, will the files I have, Gigabytes of them, made by Easy > Office and Easy Calc and Netscape...etc. Be readable by the new APPS. If not > then it is worthless to get new apps no mater the price. You have to take them one (type) at a time. Word and excel, not a problem. Netscape, netscape is netscape. Directory structure is likely different, but bookmarks etc all the same. I don't know what EasyCalc is. If it stores or exports in RTF or Excel etc fine. If it's totally 100% proprietary youre' likely screwed. Etc. Go down the list one by one... > I don't need a new > clean computer. I am not starting from scratch. I'd suggest installing linux on a separate computer, copy files in and solve the problems one by one, then migrate your "real" computer over. I can tell you, I can produce any of my files in a form easily digestible by win, dos or apple (OSX or older). I run SuSE linux, but most of the major distributions are fine. FreeBSD etc will be a little harsh if you're used to windows but it's totally fine software (in some ways better than linux). From tomj at wps.com Sat Oct 16 20:34:36 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Flexowriter running... Message-ID: Sheesh, things just take so long to get around to... THe flexo is running fine now, except for the punch. It was of course just lubrication, the thing wasn't even dusty! The belts are even OK, though I suspect they won't last that long (old rubber). The punch and reader are sticky; the punch hangs, repeating the same character over and over (certain codes, "7", "A", etc) so it needs a little more lube in those areas. I missed a few linkages, hit those, and it improved. It punches fine, the reader works, but some timing linkage isn't dropping out, I'm sure it'll be fine. Whale oil or whatever it wants is long unavailable (nothing specified in the manual) so I'm using 0-weight synthetic motor oil. Motor oil is generally UNrecommended in old gear, but the new formulations (like synthetics) are pretty good and don't gum up. I used synth grease for the open gears. I've only got the offline Flexo cable, the one meant for the second flexo for offline tape preparation. I had to leave the second flexo behind, Ed wouldn't part with it (aargh). This one seems fine though. The cable is all cracked, like it's made of dried pasta. Slightly scary, but that's what circuit breakers for. There is a big electrolytic in this thing, a filter for the relay supply, but I said hell with it, if it vents it vents, but it seems just fine, lucky me. Of course it could be open and relays will buzz, but I'll find that out later. From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Oct 16 20:41:34 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can we please take this offtopic, flame-attracting issue off-list ? (unless original poster wants to run Linux on an on-topic system, of course..) --f From AppleTO at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 20:51:28 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171C512.8090601@cableone.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <4171C024.235528AC@guntersville.net> <4171C512.8090601@cableone.net> Message-ID: <1047a6e60410161851263d8222@mail.gmail.com> If you are having doubts, I suggest trying "Linux" software which is available for Windows first. (Technically, this is open source software which works on both platformas.) For example: you can download Mozilla, which is a popular web browser. Mozilla and Netscape are pretty much the same program, so you probably won't run into any problems there. Another example: download OpenOffice, and see if it will read your Easy Office documents. If you can open Easy Office documents in Microsoft Office, I suspect that OpenOffice will fit the bill. While you are at it, you may as well try the Windows port of the GIMP to see if it suits your graphics editing needs. I don't know if it will open Photoshop files, but it can certainly open standard image formats (.jpg, .gif, and many others). All of the software I mentioned is free, and they should coexist with your existing applications without harming them. While you are doing this, you may want to obtain Knoppix. Knoppix will boot from your CD-ROM drive and will not harm your existing Windows partition. While this does impose a couple of limits because it will be much slower than booting from your hard drive and you cannot install additional software, it will allow you to see if Linux suits your tastes and needs. And yes, Knoppix is free too. :) Why should you use this approach? You will find that Linux program will run better than Windows programs running under Linux, so you should see if you like the Linux programs first. If you do, you are set! If you don't, maybe you should stick with Windows. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sat Oct 16 21:26:49 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4171D869.6080709@cableone.net> Well, I didnt know this was a flame attracting topic? Seems it was directly on topic (General Discussion , Computers) Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >Can we please take this offtopic, flame-attracting issue off-list ? > >(unless original poster wants to run Linux on an on-topic system, >of course..) > >--f > > > > From john at guntersville.net Sat Oct 16 21:31:57 2004 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: LGP-21 Flexowriter running... References: Message-ID: <4171D99D.6F7BBBAE@guntersville.net> For whale oil, check out your local watch/clock supply store. It may not go by whale oil but that is what they use. Tom Jennings wrote: > > Sheesh, things just take so long to get around to... > > THe flexo is running fine now, except for the punch. It was > of course just lubrication, the thing wasn't even dusty! The > belts are even OK, though I suspect they won't last that long > (old rubber). > > The punch and reader are sticky; the punch hangs, repeating > the same character over and over (certain codes, "7", "A", > etc) so it needs a little more lube in those areas. I missed > a few linkages, hit those, and it improved. It punches fine, > the reader works, but some timing linkage isn't dropping out, > I'm sure it'll be fine. > > Whale oil or whatever it wants is long unavailable (nothing > specified in the manual) so I'm using 0-weight synthetic motor > oil. Motor oil is generally UNrecommended in old gear, but the > new formulations (like synthetics) are pretty good and don't > gum up. I used synth grease for the open gears. > > I've only got the offline Flexo cable, the one meant for the > second flexo for offline tape preparation. I had to leave the > second flexo behind, Ed wouldn't part with it (aargh). This > one seems fine though. > > The cable is all cracked, like it's made of dried pasta. Slightly > scary, but that's what circuit breakers for. > > There is a big electrolytic in this thing, a filter for the > relay supply, but I said hell with it, if it vents it vents, > but it seems just fine, lucky me. Of course it could be open > and relays will buzz, but I'll find that out later. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 16 21:33:23 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171D869.6080709@cableone.net> Message-ID: > Well, I didnt know this was a flame attracting topic? Seems it was > directly on topic (General Discussion , Computers) Probably because most people joined this list to talk about old computers. There are a zillion places to talk about Linux. There are maybe six to talk about old computers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 16 21:37:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: <00f101c4b3d6$2a366e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to Bob D. And if you break that commitment with a VAX in the living room, your wife may beat you. In the old days, rolling pins or frying pans were used. I don't know what is used today. > I'd go in some moderate amount with you for a "VAX > clubhouse" or more likely a large storeroom with power, > if there are such things. I have always wondered if there is critical mass for a vintage computer group in the NJ/NY/CT area. Anyone? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 16 21:43:24 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4171DC4C.5010809@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to Bob D. > > > And if you break that commitment with a VAX in the living room, your wife > may beat you. In the old days, rolling pins or frying pans were used. I > don't know what is used today. Krazy Glue. Stomach. Appendages. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 16 21:46:39 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Classic OS's References: Message-ID: <4171DD0F.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > Probably because most people joined this list to talk about old computers. > > There are a zillion places to talk about Linux. There are maybe six to > talk about old computers. That is because the *rest* are driving large trucks around the country looking for good deals. > William Donzelli Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing systems that you can still find software for? Note no replies about multi-tasking basics please. Ben. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 16 22:04:22 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C17@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C17@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: >Actually it sounds like Easy Office 2001 is the one crimping your >conversion. There are plenty of Linux tools that will do what Adobe >Photoshop does, if it doesn't run in the emulators. Same for PDF file >creation and manipulation. > >The Netscape mail files will convert over pretty easily. I've done that >several times myself for various people. I agree that the problem sounds like Easy Office (I've never even heard of it). However, I'd just like to point out that no matter what certain groups might claim, GIMP is not an alternative for Photoshop. If it is a legitimate alternative for someone then they really shouldn't be using Photoshop in the first place. If Photoshop is a serious requirement, there are only two options, Mac OS X, or WinXP. I'm guessing the Easy Office doc's would be unreadable on the Mac. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 16 22:14:27 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <4171DD0F.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing > systems > that you can still find software for? Well, I think "low cost" is relative. While PDP-8s were low cost in their day, they were still pretty much out of the reach of most individuals. Hell, I am all for talking about PDP-8 stuff* - just not Linux. Talking about modern day Linux issues on this list is only a little more on topic that talking about mushroom hunting. * as long as other vintage OSs get some share - GCOS anyone? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 16 22:55:09 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: IBM Series/1 Message-ID: <56CC28A4-1FF0-11D9-A7E1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Anyone know of any documentation on an the IBM Series/1 computer? I just got an emulator and I want to do *something* with it... From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 17 00:07:36 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >* as long as other vintage OSs get some share - GCOS anyone? GCOS-6 or GCOS-8? BTW, GCOS-8 is still around last I checked. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Sun Oct 17 00:14:53 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: WTB: Zenith Minisport. Message-ID: <1097990093.1719.206625226@webmail.messagingengine.com> Does anynone here on the list have a Zenith Minisport that they want to get rid of? If so, lets make a deal off list. David M. Vohs Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64, 1802, 1541, Indus GT, FDD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Original Apple Macintosh, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer III. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy 200, PDD-2. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Comrex HDD, Titan graphics/MS-DOS board. "Scout": Otrona Attache. (prospective) "Pioneer": Apple LISA II (prospective) "Mercury": HP-85. (prospective) "Evolver": Commodore Amiga 2000 "TMA-1": Atari Portfolio, Memory Expander + From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 17 03:17:56 2004 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Some documentation availabe Message-ID: <7731.62.177.191.201.1098001076.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have the following documentation available for the cost of postage. The Remex manual is for a remex paper puncher/reader interface card, the Dataram manuals (3) are for their core memory box usable in PDP-11's. Ex-Cell-O Corporation : - Remex installation & checkout instructions PDP-11 interface assembly model RIxxxxx/DE1/1xx/-000 card assembly 109831 and 113631 Dataram: - Diagnostic Program BC-202/212 Bulk Core Memory System - Core Mermory System DR-128 - Bulk Core Memory System BC-202 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 17 04:09:53 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: LaserJet IIISi reassembly Message-ID: <200410170917.FAA06989@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Some of you may recall that back in early September I wrote about an HP LaserJet IIISi that I disassembled and repaired after a capacitor fried. Well, even though I got the printer working again, I made a mistake. Just about the time I got it working again, I left on a month-long trip around the continent. (A few of you contacted me when I said I'd be traveling around. I didn't actually end up rendezvousing with any of you, and I apologize for it - I didn't realize how short of time I'd end up being. A month-long trip sounds like a lot, but it ends up being awfully short when there are five people/places to be visited, and some of the trips in between are multi-day trips.) Now, I want to put the printer back together, and there's the mistake: I didn't leave notes to myself on how it came apart and thus how it went back together. Would any of you happen to have a service manual that could guide me? I could probably figure it out eventually, but if I can save myself annoying mistakes, I'd like to. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From m_thompson at ids.net Sat Oct 16 20:12:35 2004 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: FS: PDP-9 brochure In-Reply-To: <0m82n0d6tbj8u0g6j4o0s2ovi7gn1893lb@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20041016211235.00f8f158@155.212.1.107> The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a PDP-9. They would probably like to have the brochure. At 08:36 AM 10/16/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I was digging through some old papers and came across a 48-page >advertising brochure for the PDP-9, in great condition except it's >slightly "buckled" from sitting sideways in the box. It's called >"PDP-9, The Serious Computer" dated 11/67. I can email pictures. > >Anyone interested? I have no idea if it's worth anything to anyone >but if so I'd at least like to break even on the postage ;) > >thanks >Charles > > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Oct 16 23:15:28 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive References: <000501c4b213$219d82b0$0100a8c0@nome9qdzofpy2n> Message-ID: <001501c4b3ff$ef977750$6401a8c0@hal9000> Dear Mauricio ( and to whom it may concern ); The original posting was based on a misconception that there was a Byte magazine article ( long ago ) on this subject ( adding a floppy drive to a Heathkit ET-3400 ). Since this was not true, I decided to design one myself ( I am a disgruntled ex-aerospace engineer ). The trick is to come up with "simple" solutions that are not over-kill since the ET-3400 doesn't possess a lot of processing power. Plus you need a kind of " boot ROM " to tell the 3400 how to talk to the floppy interface. Progress is being made, and I hope to have a " cost effective " solution early next year. I hope this helps. Best regards, Steven C. Dear Sir, my name is Mauricio R. araujo, retired avionics instructor. I found your message concerning this subject surfing on internet. I?m interesting about 3400 floppy Drive . could you please send any informations ?(Sorry for my English...) Mauricio From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Oct 17 06:42:46 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: References: <00f101c4b3d6$2a366e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017073651.02f69ab0@192.168.0.1> At 10:37 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: > > I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to Bob D. > >And if you break that commitment with a VAX in the living room, your wife >may beat you. In the old days, rolling pins or frying pans were used. I >don't know what is used today. A DEC power controller with it's 30amp power cable would make a jam up room clearing flail. And the platen from a LA34/LA100 is easy to get out and hard as a rock. If it has pull out disk racks (RA60 etc) make sure she hasn't loosened the front feet of the rack cabinet. Don't want that sucker falling on you when you slide a drive out and her collecting the insurance on you. [old computer stuff putting us back OT] Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Oct 17 06:46:11 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <4171DD0F.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> At 10:46 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: >Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing systems >that you can still find software for? Note no replies about multi-tasking >basics please. TSX+? A time sharing extension of RT11 on PDP11's. Super product, very efficient. We did a lot of PDP11 multi terminal medical billing systems with it. S and H is till around I believe. Ed K. From ms at vaxcluster.de Sun Oct 17 07:08:38 2004 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Looking for Motorola MC14500B ICU Handbook (dead tree, PDF, whatever) In-Reply-To: <4171B27C.7040108@jcwren.com> References: <4171B27C.7040108@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <417260C6.2040004@vaxcluster.de> I have a german version (paper). Does that help? ms J.C. Wren wrote: > I'm looking for a copy of the Motorola MC14500B Industrial Control > Unit Handbook. If anyone has a copy they'd like to part with (sell, > give), or loan for scanning, I'd be greatly appreciative (I'll cover > postage both ways). > > --jc > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man muss nicht immer alles glauben was stimmt" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 17 07:40:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> Message-ID: <1098016822.3187.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 19:29 -0500, Jim Isbell wrote: > I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a > chance that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF > creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 > which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not > compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). Have a look at: http://appdb.winehq.org/appbrowse.php I've just started using Wine recently for running Paint Shop Pro under (it was the only thing left for which there wasn't a viable Linux alternative) and I'm *really* impressed. It was easy to get going and the speed feels about 90% of native Windows, which isn't half bad. I believe Photoshop runs happily; I'm not sure about the others (Netscape you can just run under Linux surely, or use a different browser?) > I can network the old and new computers ( I already have the LAN in > operation with two MS OS computers on it) then I could download all my > files and programs into the new computer....IF I COULD BE SURE that they > would work with the Lindows OS. Spending $49 to try what might be a > failure is NOT an option. Why pay money for something you can download (legally! :-) for free? Then either install to your second machine, or install to a seperate hard disk in your main machine to try it out (as you're a new Linux user, just take your disk with Windows on it out just to make sure you don't accidentally overwrite anything) Red Hat (Fedora) is reckoned to be pretty good for people new to Linux. Most distributions support installing over the web if you don't fancy downloading a local copy. Do some reading from http://www.tldp.org/ for useful 'how to use Linux' info. Also http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major compares some of the major distributions. Note that Wine will run on any Linux distribution (I use Slackware here, but I wouldn't recommend it for someone used to Windows as nearly all of the configuration is command line) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 17 07:48:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-10-16 at 22:33 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > There are a zillion places to talk about Linux. There are maybe six to > talk about old computers. What are the other five? :-) I can sympathise with Jim, though. Faced with a new challenge, it's often a lot easier to ask for opinions amongst a smaller group (where you know there are people capable of helping, even if it's not strictly on-topic) rather than asking in the more traditional mainstream places where your question just gets drowned out. No harm done I reckon - and anyway, Linux was around over ten years ago now, so it is sort-of on topic :) cheers, Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Oct 17 08:06:29 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> Message-ID: <41726E55.3020403@gjcp.net> There's a non-Linux question at the bottom, to keep everyone reading and to at least *pretend* to be on-topic... Jim Isbell wrote: > I have been ready for 20 years to dump "Uncle Bill" but every time I > try to switch to Linux I run into problems that seem insurmountable. I'm trying to go the other way - there are a few things I need to run under Windows that don't work in Linux. I've never really used Windows, except recently at work, and I know next-to-nothing about it. > I can't do that. There are programs I need and I cannot just take a > chance that "maybe it will work" My main concerns are Adobe PDF > creator, Adobe Photo Shop, Netscape, and particularly Easy Office 2001 > which contains all my data in Easy Spreadsheet files that are not > compatible with Excel (even though they are supposed to be). Depends what you want to do. There are many, many ways to create PDFs in Linux (and indeed *any* of the free Unix-a-likes). Most programs expect to be able to print stuff to a PostScript printer, and from there it's a fairly trivial matter to convert to PDF. For most applications Gimp, though not really as good as Photoshop, is good enough for most applications. My girlfriend uses it exclusively for photo-editing, and she works in a large photo-processing environment. Apparently it beats the proprietary software that is specifically designed for their printer on all fronts. Netscape is just Netscape, there have always been Linux versions. Mozilla has kind of replaced it by now. If you're not using Mozilla Firefox as your web browser (especially in Windows), then you'd better have a good reason why. Easy Office I've never heard of. If you use a lot of macros, I would expect you'd need to re-write these. Open Office is more MS Office compatible than MS Office - it will open stuff that doesn't work between different MS Office versions (even the notorious Office 97). > I don't want to have to go out and buy an all new set of apps. That > makes the relatively low price of Lindows immaterial. And besides, all > my files would likely be incompatible so I lose all my old data unless I > keep two machines. Also, I use Netscape for browser and E Mail and I > have tons of mail files and bookmarks that I would have to figure out > how to get over to Lindows...Unless Netscape will run under Lindows. ???? As I said, Netscape originated as a Unix browser, so you shouldn't have a problem there. At the very worst, you can use an IMAP mail server, copy your mail across, then copy it back into a different environment. I've done this to get around proprietary mailbox formats before, and it works (but it's not pretty). Most distributions of Linux come with a ton of applications, and you can always download more. Commercial software in Linux tends to be restricted to highly specialised servers and games, so don't worry about paying for stuff. > I know there are free apps that can do word processing and spreadsheets > and photo processing, but they appear to be "stripped down" versions. Open Office is actually a little bit too "full featured" for my tastes. Gimp does pretty near everything you want in photo processing. It doesn't support CMYK separation, so print is going to be less than ideal. If you're not using four-plate litho, you needn't worry. > I can network the old and new computers ( I already have the LAN in > operation with two MS OS computers on it) then I could download all my > files and programs into the new computer....IF I COULD BE SURE that they > would work with the Lindows OS. Spending $49 to try what might be a > failure is NOT an option. Download one of the many thousands of free distributions of Linux and try that, then. Someone else suggested Knoppix - this is good, because its hardware detection works wonderfully. It runs from the CD, which means you need quite a lot of RAM, and even then a lot of apps are slow to start up. Bear in mind that you are looking at a woefully slow version of Linux, with all possible goodies turned on. You can turn off a lot of stuff that you don't need - one of my desktop machines is a P200MMX running Linux, and it's considerably faster than the P3-500 running Windows 2000 at work. Now for the on-list-topic but irrelevant to this discussion question! I'll post this as a separate question too, so it doesn't screw up threaded mail readers. On the PDP8/S, when you look at the serial registers (for AC, say), do they act as shift registers, bumping the number through one flip-flop at a time (so a 1 that starts in AC0 will eventually be shunted through to AC11), or are all the flip-flop inputs wired together, so the serial data gets gated into each bit in turn? Gordon. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 09:06:03 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: >Linux was around over ten years ago > now, so it is sort-of on topic :) Only if you want to talk about Debian 0.91, Slackware 1.1.2 or the new beta release of SuSE Linux. From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Oct 17 09:23:36 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1098016822.3187.40.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <1098016822.3187.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <41728068.3030209@cableone.net> Jules Richardson wrote: >Note that Wine will run on any Linux distribution (I use Slackware here, >but I wouldn't recommend it for someone used to Windows as nearly all of >the configuration is command line) > > > > Actually I am used to command line. I have been programming since 1959 when I worked in machine language on the IBM 7070. I write in 6 languages. And was thouraly pissed off at Bill Gates when he introduced Windows just when I was quite used to TRSDOS and RDOS. Of course, it was an improvement, but then I bitched about having to transition from a stick airplane to a yoke airplane. Couldnt figure out how any one could fly without a stick. Thanks for the comments. Jim W5JAI From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 17 09:57:41 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: PC BIOS Access Message-ID: <41728865.98D5BF20@rain.org> I seem to recall that the IBM setup disk would work on other computers that required a setup disk. Another useful piece of information would be the ways to access the HD format routines on PCs. Somewhere I have a list that came from ComputerLand that gives the debug entry addresses for a number of controller cards. IIRC, the Xebex card required a sequence of debug instructions to start the format routines. > >> It might be interesting to have a list of ways that the BIOS gets > >> accessed during startup. These are the ways that I know about; are there > >> others I've missed? I don't recall which keys work with what BIOS and > >> that might also be interesting information to have. > >> > >> * Setup disk (IBM AT) > >> * Del key > >> * Cntl-Alt-Insert > >> * Cntl-Alt-S > >> * F1 key > >> * F2 key > >> * F10 key (Compaq) > > > >It would be great if there was a database of all computer models that gave > >this information, as well as other useful tidbits. It could be a Wiki > >thing, or certainly an open, public thing that people could contribute > >to. > > It would be nice if they could post the unique setup programs there too. > > Joe From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Oct 17 10:34:22 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - also TSX-PLUS In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <417290FE.3060209@compsys.to> >Ed Kelleher wrote: > >At 10:46 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: > >> Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing >> systems >> that you can still find software for? Note no replies about >> multi-tasking basics please. > > TSX+? > A time sharing extension of RT11 on PDP11's. > Super product, very efficient. > We did a lot of PDP11 multi terminal medical billing systems with it. > S and H is till around I believe. Jerome Fine replies: It has been a while since I used TSX-PLUS, so I sort of forgot that it is a true multi-job operating system with support for many features required in that environment, including extensive security features similar to what are found in VMS, although limited to what is compatible with what is essentially an RT-11 environment. TSX-PLUS also supports a "windows" of sorts, although because it uses standard VT100 dumb serial terminals on slow 9600 baud lines, the user is limited to switching from FULL screen to FULL screen (i.e. no ability to have partial screens such as with the Microsoft Windows concept) with all characters being displayed at rates which would be considered painful within a real DEC system. On a Pentium system with a video card, that pain disappears. The last time I inquired a few years ago, S&H was still selling TSX-PLUS V6.50 which was already Y2K compliant in 1991. If someone actually wants to buy a license or upgrade to the current version, contact S&H at: http://www.sandh.com/ If S&H is no longer able to supply the current distribution, I would be pleased to help make copies of the physical media. ALSO, if anyone is still running TSX-PLUS, it is possible to shift to an emulator. Since it is possible to run RT-11 under E11 at more than 50 times a PDP-11/93, I presume that is also possible for TSX-PLUS at the same speeds. For hobby users, E11 now supports the full 4 MBytes of memory and up to 256 GBytes of hard disk drive files. For commercial users of E11, many additional features are also supported in addition to almost unlimited disk space (relative to what a PDP-11 can reasonably support, let alone the speed at which I/O runs on a PDP-11 vs a current Pentium 4 on which E11 runs) and true RAM: disks. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 17 10:40:29 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:03 2005 Subject: Need Altair Front Name Plate Message-ID: <00a801c4b45f$a3309760$52406b43@66067007> Anyone have a spare Altair 8800 front name plate to sell or give as a donation? The unit I just got is missing the name plate. Thanks From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 17 11:33:23 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: NEEDED: DEC 17-00867-01 BA123 rx50 cable Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone (pref. in Holland) have one or two of the 17-00867-01 cables (BA123 RX50 cable) they'd like to get rid of? I am in dire need for one, and could use an extra one for spares.. Thanks, Fred From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 17 11:45:07 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: NEEDED: DEC 17-00867-01 BA123 rx50 cable Message-ID: <0410171645.AA11188@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Is it the one that goes from the distribution board to the RX50? I don't have that one, but why can't you just make one yourself? It's just a 34-conductor flat ribbon cable with female header sockets on both ends, isn't it? MS From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Oct 17 12:24:12 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4172AABC.5040000@gjcp.net> Paul Williams wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Linux was around over ten years ago >> now, so it is sort-of on topic :) > > > Only if you want to talk about Debian 0.91, Slackware 1.1.2 or the new > beta release of SuSE Linux. At least in the UK, Lasermoon had been kicking around for a while by late 1994. It was the first Linux distro I ever used. "Oooh", I thought, "This is just like Unix. Cool. Now I don't need to hang around waiting for a shot of the SCO Unix boxes in the computing labs at Uni!" Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 17 12:24:27 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41726E55.3020403@gjcp.net> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <41726E55.3020403@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200410171725.NAA08163@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Knoppix] runs from the CD, which means you need quite a lot of RAM, Anyone running Photoshop on Windows has, in Linux terms, gobs and gobs of RAM installed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 12:40:58 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <200410171725.NAA08163@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4171BCF4.1030501@cableone.net> <41726E55.3020403@gjcp.net> <200410171725.NAA08163@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2004, at 10:24 AM, der Mouse wrote: >> [Knoppix] runs from the CD, which means you need quite a lot of RAM, > > Anyone running Photoshop on Windows has, in Linux terms, gobs and gobs > of RAM installed. Things like knoppix create a ram disk to run from, so while you have lots of ram for windows/photoshop, you may only have an adequate amount of memory for knoppix+gimp+X+"desktop.manager" > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Oct 17 12:36:48 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - also TSX-PLUS In-Reply-To: <417290FE.3060209@compsys.to> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017133034.03613d78@192.168.0.1> At 11:34 AM 10/17/2004, you wrote: >The last time I inquired a few years ago, >S&H was still selling TSX-PLUS V6.50 which >was already Y2K compliant in 1991. They also have a TSX32 product that runs native on a 386 or better. http://www.sandh.com/os.htm We got a copy to look to moving our customers from PDP11's to PC hardware. But about that time we got out of the medical billing field because of prohibitive cost of keeping up with insurance changes. Don't remember ever actually genning a system with it. Our TSX+ customers migrated to Windows and other vendors. Ed K. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 13:24:11 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Gah! ascii don't work??! Message-ID: simh running rsts print chr$(27);"[2J" prints $[2J not clear the screen. VT100 sequence is ESC[2J as well as ansi sequence! It does the same thing on the direct-serial-connected vt100 emulating HP terminal... Gah! From kth at srv.net Sun Oct 17 14:33:27 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4172C907.40104@srv.net> Ron Hudson wrote: > simh running rsts > > print chr$(27);"[2J" > > prints > > $[2J > > not clear the screen. VT100 sequence is ESC[2J as well as ansi > sequence! It does the same thing on the direct-serial-connected vt100 > emulating HP terminal... > Try print chr$(27+128);"[2J" RSTS plays odd games with the escape character (prints it as a dollar sign most of the time), and setting the parity bit helps. There are various "open" modes, and terminal settings that will bypass this, but this is easier. > > Gah! > > _______________________________________________ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Oct 17 14:14:01 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:24:11 PDT." Message-ID: <200410171914.UAA11448@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ron Hudson said: > simh running rsts > > print chr$(27);"[2J" > > prints > > $[2J > > not clear the screen. VT100 sequence is ESC[2J as well as ansi > sequence! It does the same thing on the direct-serial-connected vt100 > emulating HP terminal... > Basic grabs the ESC... I think you need to do print chr$(155%);"[2J" That's from memory...I don't have the fake PDP-11 switched on ATM. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 14:31:29 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: <4172C8D2.6060601@srv.net> References: <4172C8D2.6060601@srv.net> Message-ID: <24C0CDA8-2073-11D9-824E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 17, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Handy wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> simh running rsts >> >> print chr$(27);"[2J" >> > Try > > print chr$(27+128);"[2J" > > RSTS plays odd games with the escape character (prints it as > a dollar sign most of the time), and setting the parity bit helps. > There are various "open" modes, and terminal settings that > will bypass this, but this is easier. > >> prints >> Ready 10 print chr$(27+128);"[2J" run NEW 12:25 PM 17-Oct-84 ?[2J Ready -------------- nope, that don't do it either. It's the same output on the terminal too. What about +256? are they 8 bit chars? hmm no that would just be 27 again... chr$ does a MODULO right? From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 14:35:08 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: <200410171914.UAA11448@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200410171914.UAA11448@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2004, at 12:14 PM, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Ron Hudson said: > >> simh running rsts >> >> print chr$(27);"[2J" >> >> prints >> >> $[2J >> >> not clear the screen. VT100 sequence is ESC[2J as well as ansi >> sequence! It does the same thing on the direct-serial-connected vt100 >> emulating HP terminal... >> > > Basic grabs the ESC... > I think you need to do > print chr$(155%);"[2J" This is the same as the last suggestion chr$(27+128)... and prints ?[2J I wonder if I need to "wake up" the terminal with some other escape sequence first???? > > That's from memory...I don't have the fake PDP-11 switched on ATM. > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 17 14:41:46 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4172CAFA.3010202@mdrconsult.com> Paul Williams wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Linux was around over ten years ago >> now, so it is sort-of on topic :) > > > Only if you want to talk about Debian 0.91, Slackware 1.1.2 or the new > beta release of SuSE Linux. Or Yggdrasil, or half-a-dozen others. By late '94 it was already proliferating. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 17 14:48:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to Bob D. > > And if you break that commitment with a VAX in the living room, your wife > may beat you. In the old days, rolling pins or frying pans were used. I > don't know what is used today. iPods, of course :) http://liquidgeneration.com/rumormill/ipod_killing.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 17 14:45:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: NEEDED: DEC 17-00867-01 BA123 rx50 cable In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) "Re: NEEDED: DEC 17-00867-01 BA123 rx50 cable" (Oct 17, 16:45) References: <0410171645.AA11188@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <10410172045.ZM5298@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17 2004, 16:45, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Is it the one that goes from the distribution board to the RX50? > I don't have that one, but why can't you just make one yourself? > It's just a 34-conductor flat ribbon cable with female header sockets > on both ends, isn't it? Yes, it is. I was about to suggest the same thing. An ex-PC floppy cable will do, if you use the connectors without the twist (cut the excess off if you want to be neat). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 17 15:02:44 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: *BLUSH* Re: NEEDED: DEC 17-00867-01 BA123 rx50 cable In-Reply-To: <10410172045.ZM5298@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Those who have spares better go check em before asking for even more spares. I just remembered I had another crate full of DEC flatcabling. Sure enough, three of the named cables popped up. Ahem.. 'nuf sed, will now go back to MFM disk formatting... --f From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Oct 17 15:24:55 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > What are the other five? :-) Its just a number I pulled out of the air. We have at least two web based forums, and a.f.c., and I suppose the dead-ish RCS list. > I can sympathise with Jim, though. Faced with a new challenge, it's > often a lot easier to ask for opinions amongst a smaller group (where > you know there are people capable of helping, even if it's not strictly > on-topic) rather than asking in the more traditional mainstream places > where your question just gets drowned out. > > No harm done I reckon This is what bugs me. What about plain old manners? Good sense? How about all of the people on the list that might be annoyed at modern Linux and Windows (or whatever) talk? I can't be the only one here. I don't mind a little OT chat on the cctalk list - it doesn't hurt for the most part. My objection is that there are probably hundreds of forums that are better suited for Linux talk. Why post here, when it will annoy some people? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From stuart at zen.co.uk Sun Oct 17 15:31:25 2004 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: wtd: amiga bits Message-ID: <003d01c4b488$4640a490$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Hello everyone, Can someone help me out - I need a Zorro ethernet card for my 2000, or maybe something like a golden gate board to let me use ISA cards. I'd also like to get hold of a video toaster 2000 setup, any chance of a US folks helping out? Cheerio Stu From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 17 15:36:53 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > This is what bugs me. What about plain old manners? Good sense? How about Indeed. > all of the people on the list that might be annoyed at modern Linux and > Windows (or whatever) talk? I can't be the only one here. Consider yourself not the only one :) > I don't mind a little OT chat on the cctalk list - it doesn't hurt for the > most part. My objection is that there are probably hundreds of forums that > are better suited for Linux talk. Why post here, when it will annoy some > people? Not just that, also include the highly political nature of those discussions; they're all much more suited for comp.os.linux.advocacy or the various Windows/Linux/xBSD technical groups/lists. NOT HERE. --fred From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 17 15:45:35 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: wtd: amiga bits In-Reply-To: <003d01c4b488$4640a490$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> References: <003d01c4b488$4640a490$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <20041017204535.GC26426@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 17, 2004 at 09:31:25PM +0100, Stuart Birchall wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Can someone help me out - I need a Zorro ethernet card for my 2000, or maybe something like a golden gate board to let me use ISA cards. I'd also like to get hold of a video toaster 2000 setup, any chance of a US folks helping out? I still have a quantity of new-in-box-with-warranty GG2 Bus+ cards. There are SANA2 and MNI drivers for various cards. If you are going to use SANA2, I think the best drivers are for NE2000 and WD 8013. For MNI, I'm thinking that the 8013 might be the best choice, but I haven't fiddled with that part of things in a while. There's also serial and printer drivers, probably the second most popular thing people use the GG2 Bus+ for (internal modems, especially, to free up the native Amiga serial port for other things). Contact me off-list if you are interested. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Oct-2004 20:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.9 F (-53.3 C) Windchill -96.09 F (-71.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.19 kts Grid 074 Barometer 680.9 mb (10591. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Sun Oct 17 15:56:54 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (netsurfer_x1@fastmailbox.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Administration Message-ID: <200410172105.i9HL5KYI067091@mail.ezwind.net> Please confirm my request. From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 17 16:04:55 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <4171DD0F.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4171DD0F.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing systems > that you can still find software for? Note no replies about multi-tasking > basics please. MP/M? Hmm, MP/M-80 with simh might solve two basic problems (memory and speed)! From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 17 16:23:26 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Request for Reccomendations - Telnet References: <416F1156.nail1TY17WKZF@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <16754.58062.715000.970748@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Shoppa writes: >> what's funny is the terminal emulators work fine with teco/vt. I >> suppose vt50dpy makes more use of the terminal control codes. Tim> Judging by the name of the program... what you really want is a Tim> VT50 emulator? IIRC VT50 is a subset of VT52. That's how it started out, but no, you want a VT52 emulation. The program works with either; if you tell it "24 lines" it assumes a VT52. paul From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 16:30:13 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? Message-ID: How do I search and replace ^j for ^m^J across the entire file? From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 17 16:34:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! References: <4172C8D2.6060601@srv.net> <24C0CDA8-2073-11D9-824E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16754.58702.868000.126548@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> On Oct 17, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Handy wrote: >> Ron Hudson wrote: >> >>> simh running rsts >>> >>> print chr$(27);"[2J" >>> >> Try >> >> print chr$(27+128);"[2J" >> >> RSTS plays odd games with the escape character (prints it as a >> dollar sign most of the time), and setting the parity bit helps. >> There are various "open" modes, and terminal settings that will >> bypass this, but this is easier. >> >>> prints >>> Ron> Ready Ron> 10 print chr$(27+128);"[2J" run NEW 12:25 PM 17-Oct-84 ?[2J Ron> Ready Ron> -------------- nope, that don't do it either. It's the same Ron> output on the terminal too. What about +256? are they 8 bit Ron> chars? hmm no that would just be 27 again... chr$ does a MODULO Ron> right? Yes. Adding 128 should have worked. Normal coding convention is to specify integers (i.e., 27%+128%) but the fact you used float shouldn't matter here. chr$(27%+128%) will, I believe, actually output a 155 code, not a 27. On a 7-bit device that's ok, but on a terminal that support 8 bits, it's not. Try this (working from memory): print record 1%, chr$(27%)+"[2J"; Note two points: (a) "record 1%" means binary ("raw") output, and (b) string concatenation, rather than multiple arguments separated by ";" so the whole chunk goes out under the influence of that "raw output" modifier. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 17 16:38:40 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: >Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Linux was around over ten years ago >>now, so it is sort-of on topic :) > >Only if you want to talk about Debian 0.91, Slackware 1.1.2 or the >new beta release of SuSE Linux. You left out a few, such as the MCM release, and SLS release (I ran SLS from when it started in '92 or '93 till '96). Then there was Yggdrasil (first CD based distro starting in '93), as well as several other floppy based distro's, and of course the classic "Boot/Root" floppies. My first few Linux installs were done using the "Boot/Root" floppies (starting in January 1992), and then adding everything else. BTW, on a scarry note, MS DOS 6.22 is now on topic. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 17 16:48:10 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? References: Message-ID: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: Ron> How do I search and replace ^j for ^m^J across the entire file? You mean change \r\n to \n? I can't figure out if you want that or the other way around. Assuming RSTS, where entering CR gives you \r\n and entering LF gives you just \n: FNEX paul From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 17:37:32 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? In-Reply-To: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <228D0026-208D-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 17, 2004, at 2:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: > > Ron> How do I search and replace ^j for ^m^J across the entire file? > > You mean change \r\n to \n? I can't figure out if you want that or > the other way around. > > Assuming RSTS, where entering CR gives you \r\n and entering LF gives > you just \n: > > FNEX > > paul > > Actually I have linefeeds not carriage return/linefeeds btw which should be first? Linux (unix) {ohh noo don't look Fred} uses only linefeeds... EX$$ ? I thought that's what I typed to exit teco... oh wait I get it FN^j$$ <--- change all vs FS change next EX$ <---- exit after changes $ <--- ok doit already. right? From wacarder at usit.net Sun Oct 17 17:44:59 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! Message-ID: <10005319.1098053099755.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: Ron Hudson Sent: Oct 17, 2004 3:31 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com, Kevin Handy , Classic Computers Subject: Re: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! On Oct 17, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Kevin Handy wrote: > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> simh running rsts >> >> print chr$(27);"[2J" >> > Try > > print chr$(27+128);"[2J" > > RSTS plays odd games with the escape character (prints it as > a dollar sign most of the time), and setting the parity bit helps. > There are various "open" modes, and terminal settings that > will bypass this, but this is easier. > >> prints >> Ready 10 print chr$(27+128);"[2J" run NEW 12:25 PM 17-Oct-84 ?[2J Ready -------------- nope, that don't do it either. It's the same output on the terminal too. What about +256? are they 8 bit chars? hmm no that would just be 27 again... chr$ does a MODULO right? ---------------------- Ashley says: Ron, The way I always cleared the screen in Basic-Plus on RSTS on a VT50 or VT52 terminal was: PRINT CHR$(155)+"H"+CHR$(155)+"J" The CHR$(155)+"H" positions the cursor in the top left of the screen Then, the CHR$(155)+"J" clears the screen. This is all from memory. I haven't actually written that kind of code since the late 1970s. Ashley From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 17:45:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: <16754.58702.868000.126548@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4172C8D2.6060601@srv.net> <24C0CDA8-2073-11D9-824E-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16754.58702.868000.126548@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4C3937EE-208E-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 17, 2004, at 2:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > chr$(27%+128%) will, I believe, actually output a 155 code, not a 27. > On a 7-bit device that's ok, but on a terminal that support 8 bits, > it's not. > > Try this (working from memory): > print record 1%, chr$(27%)+"[2J"; do you mean: open "kb:" for output as file #1% print #1,chr$(27)+"[2J"; <-- ; really helps?? this still print $[2J print record.... gets "2J" only... same if I use chr$(155%) What would chr$(-27%) be? (no, looks like "e") > > Note two points: (a) "record 1%" means binary ("raw") output, and (b) > string concatenation, rather than multiple arguments separated by ";" > so the whole chunk goes out under the influence of that "raw output" > modifier. > > paul > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Oct 17 18:12:08 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4172FC48.3040505@gjcp.net> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > >>This is what bugs me. What about plain old manners? Good sense? How about > > Indeed. > > >>all of the people on the list that might be annoyed at modern Linux and >>Windows (or whatever) talk? I can't be the only one here. > > Consider yourself not the only one :) > Bah. I still have Linux running on my aging Compaq 386sx, just like I had in 1994. It meets the 10 years rule at least, even if the hardware isn't very interesting. Gordon From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 17 18:13:16 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: "Fred N. van Kempen" "Re: Linux OS" (Oct 17, 22:36) References: Message-ID: <10410180013.ZM5500@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 17 2004, 22:36, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > > My objection is that there are probably hundreds of forums that > > are better suited for Linux talk. Why post here, when it will annoy some > > people? > Not just that, also include the highly political nature of those > discussions; they're all much more suited for comp.os.linux.advocacy > or the various Windows/Linux/xBSD technical groups/lists. > > NOT HERE. I agree, if you want my vote. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From millenniumfalcon at cableone.net Sun Oct 17 18:17:59 2004 From: millenniumfalcon at cableone.net (Jim Isbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4172FDA7.5090007@cableone.net> OK, I will reply to the list. This list was touted as the one to sign up with where off topic as well as on topic discussions were allowed. I opted NOT to sign up for the more strict ON topic only version of the list. But apparently neither is for general discussion, BOTH are only strictly ON Topic. Im outa here, too many net police on this list Sorry I didn't have time to dispose of my garage full of computers. I will just take them to E Bay where no one bitches about being slightly off topic. Enjoy yourselves, I'm outa here. Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >>This is what bugs me. What about plain old manners? Good sense? How about >> >> >Indeed. > > > >>all of the people on the list that might be annoyed at modern Linux and >>Windows (or whatever) talk? I can't be the only one here. >> >> >Consider yourself not the only one :) > > > >>I don't mind a little OT chat on the cctalk list - it doesn't hurt for the >>most part. My objection is that there are probably hundreds of forums that >>are better suited for Linux talk. Why post here, when it will annoy some >>people? >> >> >Not just that, also include the highly political nature of those >discussions; they're all much more suited for comp.os.linux.advocacy >or the various Windows/Linux/xBSD technical groups/lists. > >NOT HERE. > >--fred > > > > From aek at spies.com Sun Oct 17 18:41:45 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's Message-ID: <20041017234145.D006A3C63@spies.com> > Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing systems > that you can still find software for? "low cost time sharing system" was almost an oxymoron in the 60's and early 70's Both the cost of core, and for mass storage devices kept computer configurations capable of timesharing pretty expensive. TSS-8 was probably the first timesharing system for $50,000. As I recall, the final configuration of the TSS/8 system I used at the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee was closer to $100K by the time we added the KL8/E's and RK05's. Early RSTS (originally called Edusystem-100) was somewhat less expensive, but the pre RSTS/E systems were pretty limited. There are a few other timesharing systems from the 60s for which software has been found that I'm aware of: Some bits of CTSS at Paul Pierce's web site Some of the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system The SDS-940 GENIE timesharing system The BCC-500 timesharing system. (I just received permission to release this) The Oregon State University OS-3 CDC 3300 timesharing system. CAL-TSS for the CDC 6400 may be on some 7 track tapes that were just given to Paul Pierce to read. There is also the software available for Hercules (TSS-360, for example) From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 17 18:48:18 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! In-Reply-To: <10005319.1098053099755.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <10005319.1098053099755.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <055E33F2-2097-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 17, 2004, at 3:44 PM, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > Ron, > The way I always cleared the screen in Basic-Plus on RSTS on a VT50 or > VT52 > terminal was: > > PRINT CHR$(155)+"H"+CHR$(155)+"J" > > The CHR$(155)+"H" positions the cursor in the top left of the screen > Then, the CHR$(155)+"J" clears the screen. > > This is all from memory. I haven't actually written that kind of code > since the late 1970s. > > Ashley > Works on the terminal.. while the terminal is pretending to be a vt52 ... but now still fails on the osX/Terminal but that's ok because it probably has a non-op vt52 emulation.... From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 17 18:52:50 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? References: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <228D0026-208D-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16755.1490.15000.878059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> > On Oct 17, 2004, at 2:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>> "Ron" == Ron Hudson writes: >> >> Ron> How do I search and replace ^j for ^m^J across the entire file? >> >> You mean change \r\n to \n? I can't figure out if you want that or >> the other way around. >> >> Assuming RSTS, where entering CR gives you \r\n and entering LF gives >> you just \n: >> >> FNEX >> >> paul >> >> > > Actually I have linefeeds not carriage return/linefeeds btw which > should be first? It's FN$$ So lf to crlf is the reverse of what I wrote. > Linux (unix) {ohh noo don't look Fred} uses only linefeeds... > > EX$$ ? I thought that's what I typed to exit teco... oh wait I get it > > FN^j$$ <--- change all vs FS change next > EX$ <---- exit after changes > $ <--- ok doit already. > > right? Right. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 17 18:56:36 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's References: <20041017234145.D006A3C63@spies.com> Message-ID: <16755.1716.124000.864603@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: >> Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time >> sharing systems that you can still find software for? Al> "low cost time sharing system" was almost an oxymoron in the 60's Al> and early 70's Al> Both the cost of core, and for mass storage devices kept computer Al> configurations capable of timesharing pretty expensive. TSS-8 was Al> probably the first timesharing system for $50,000. As I recall, Al> the final configuration of the TSS/8 system I used at the Al> University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee was closer to $100K by the Al> time we added the KL8/E's and RK05's. Early RSTS (originally Al> called Edusystem-100) was somewhat less expensive, but the pre Al> RSTS/E systems were pretty limited. Not as limited as you might think -- at Lawrence U. we ran an 11/20 with an RK05 for its main storage (DECtape for auxiliary public file storage). It frequently hit 12 users during the day. When Sociology 101 students used it to do "crosstab all by all" on their survey databases, things got pretty slow... :-) It did seem to crash a lot. RSTS/E with an 11/45 and double the memory took care of that. paul From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 17 19:00:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Enrico Tedeschi Message-ID: Some of you folks who have been around long enough might remember Enrico Tedeschi, the guy who got so frustrated by our collective inability to understand his inarticulate premise that it was the human element, rather than the computers, that was more important, that he threw up his hands in disgust and left the mailing list for good. Anyway, I heard him today on a BBC program about the 50th anniversary of the transistor radio. That's all. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mross666 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:05:15 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC cables BC08J Message-ID: Hope someone can help... I'd like to buy or trade 3 x BC08J DEC positive bus cables... Berg connector one end, single-sided backplane plug card the other end......... I'd like to hook my TC08 ( http://www.corestore.org/tc08.htm ) up to the positive bus / data break Omnibus cards in one of my pdp-8e boxes. Takes five cables, I can only find two in my cable pile :-( Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 17 19:16:44 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <10410180013.ZM5500@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10410180013.ZM5500@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: I agree that the linux thread is off-topic, and I apologize for not taking it off-list immediately. But I politely point out that the meta-commentary now exceeds the original. From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 17 20:46:32 2004 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: TI Insight Series 10 Personal Information Terminal Message-ID: <1gltczq.u5zvgfsqnd3rM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Anybody want one of these? It seems to be a dumb terminal. It has a really sharp 4" 40x24 text screen. It is missing two key caps. It is in the SF Bay Area right now. So Make me an offer! http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/temp/DCP_0398.jpg http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/temp/DCP_0396.jpg http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/temp/DCP_0395.jpg http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/temp/DCP_0394.jpg http://home.netcom.com/~tlindner/temp/DCP_0393.jpg -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com Bright From dundas at caltech.edu Sun Oct 17 22:00:47 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas@caltech.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's Message-ID: <5437919338dundas@caltech.edu> > we added the KL8/E's and RK05's. Early RSTS (originally called Edusystem- 100) was Which reminds me there used to be a series of "EduSystems" for the PDP-8 as I recall. -25, -30, etc. The one I used was TU-55/-56 based, though one or more might well have been disk-based. Have any of these been recovered? John From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 17 22:59:32 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> Linux was around over ten years ago >>> now, so it is sort-of on topic :) >> >> >> Only if you want to talk about Debian 0.91, Slackware 1.1.2 or the new >> beta release of SuSE Linux. > > > You left out a few, such as the MCM release, and SLS release (I ran SLS > from when it started in '92 or '93 till '96). Then there was Yggdrasil > (first CD based distro starting in '93), as well as several other floppy > based distro's, and of course the classic "Boot/Root" floppies. My > first few Linux installs were done using the "Boot/Root" floppies > (starting in January 1992), and then adding everything else. I'd love to have a copy of SLS. I ran Slackware v3.something as my first Linux in '95, but I used SLS for a while in there when I was learning the difference between a distribution and an OS. I have an original Yggdrasil CD, boot floppy, and manual around here somewhere. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 18 02:28:59 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > I'd love to have a copy of SLS. I ran Slackware v3.something as >my first Linux in '95, but I used SLS for a while in there when I >was learning the difference between a distribution and an OS. > > I have an original Yggdrasil CD, boot floppy, and manual around >here somewhere. Somewhere in the disaster area I call a storage unit are floppies with the first 2-3 SLS releases, as well as CD's with some of them. The first release cost me about $200 to download as I had a 2400 baud connection to the Internet at $6/hour. I also have the first 3 Yggdrasil CD's as they sent them to me for free. Also in my collection are the first three books, and the issue #1 through about 3-4 years ago of the Linux Journal. Of course I also have copies of my 0.12 boot and root disks, some of the copies of the Linux BBS List, and the 486/33 I originally ran Linux on. I still remember the frustrations of trying to get a video card that would work with that 486 and support X-Windows (never did get an ET4000 based card to work in it). I also remember spending $600 to upgrade from 8MB - 20MB. What was painful was when in late '93 till early '95 I had to downgrade from the 486 to my older Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop thanks to a change in my job which meant I couldn't take the 486 with me. Even after adding a math coprocessor, and upgrading to the full 4MB of RAM, and a huge 320MB HD, running Linux and X-Windows on it was painful. All of this is on topic for this list. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Oct 18 02:38:04 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <5437919338dundas@caltech.edu> Message-ID: Thus wrote dundas@caltech.edu: > Which reminds me there used to be a series of "EduSystems" for the PDP-8 > as I recall. -25, -30, etc. The one I used was TU-55/-56 based, though > one or more might well have been disk-based. Have any of these been > recovered? Hmmm. Somewhere around here [*] I've got paper tapes of Edu-20 and Edu-20-C, both BASIC multiuser systems for 8K+ PDP-8s. They were both for paper-tape-only systems, say schools that could only afford the basic 8K machine and a few Teletypes. (The Edu-20-C was basically an Edu-20 system which could use Edu-25 commands.) I wouldn't mind archiving these things and making them more available, as soon as I can get that pesky tape reader working. :) [*] - Our house is much too small. We're working on moving to someplace larger where we can actually get our books and our hobby supplies and our shop equipment and our fine china and our bondage equipment _out_ of all the boxes we've had to put them in for the last few years. So yes, I know I _have_ these paper tapes, but I'm not currently prepared to dig through the mountain of boxes in the storage room to get them out. Aiya. -O.- ...but that's not to say I wouldn't find room for, say, a PDP-12, or even a -9 if one came along. :) From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 18 02:52:27 2004 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: PDP8/S internals Message-ID: <4173763B.2000203@gjcp.net> Hi there, Perhaps someone who is a little more familiar with the innards of the PDP8/Ses can answer this... Are the individual flip-flops arranged like a shift register or a set of latches? In other words, when data is being clocked into a register, does a bit get put into (say) AC0 then bumped along until it eventually ends up in AC11, or are all the D lines of the flip-flops connected together, with each one being clocked in turn? Gordon. From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Oct 18 05:45:06 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 made Slashdot this morning.. Message-ID: VCF 7 made the front page of Slashdot this morning.. http://slashdot.org/articles/04/10/18/040233.shtml?tid=126&tid=137&tid=185&tid=1 Congrat's to Sellam.. I think. ;-) David From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Oct 18 06:45:50 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? In-Reply-To: <16755.1490.15000.878059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <228D0026-208D-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16755.1490.15000.878059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <425871BC-20FB-11D9-8E06-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 18/10/2004, at 9:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > It's FN$$ So lf to crlf is the reverse of what I > wrote. > >> Linux (unix) {ohh noo don't look Fred} uses only linefeeds... >> >> EX$$ ? I thought that's what I typed to exit teco... oh wait I get it >> >> FN^j$$ <--- change all vs FS change next >> EX$ <---- exit after changes >> $ <--- ok doit already. Well, the real difference with FS and FN is related to the way teco loads files into memory in "pages". Take for example the following (assuming myfile.txt has many lines in it): .teco *ewmyfile.txt$$ - open myfile.txt for updating (Edit Write) *ht$$ - print it all out * - OK, where did it go???? The answer is that the editing buffer hasn't been loaded with any of myfile.txt *10000$$ - OK, so my DECsystem-10 has lots of memory. Use the A command to - to load "pages" of myfile.txt into the buffer. As I'm lazy, - do 10000 A's in a loop - no file I ever edited was bigger than this! - Now HT will do it's thing properly Now getting back to FS and FN. FS does a "find and replace" in the current buffer. FN does this, writes the current buffer out, and "yanks" in the next page. The teco command to do the yank is Y. So for small files, FS and FN do the same, but for large files the results may well differ - something I learnt a long time ago.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:46:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-17 at 22:59 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'd love to have a copy of SLS. SLS was what got me started with Linux in '93 - memories of lots of floppy disks, one of which would nearly always be corrupt and result in an aborted install :-) I don't believe install-from-hard-disk was around then, and even if it was I didn't have the drive space... I remember I had a 486/33 with 8Mb RAM and an 89MB drive back then, which was quite a well-specced system for the time (the people I bought my PC from messed up and sent me a 486 for the price of the 386 that I'd actually ordered :-) have a look at: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/historic-linux/distributions/sls/1.03/ FWIW, I should still have a copy of the install media backed up to QIC tape, but I'm not sure what version that'll be. I remember thinking how cool Linux was because it had xearth and Windows didn't :-) cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 18 07:37:29 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:04 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> I have always wondered if there is critical mass for a >>> vintage computer group in the NJ/NY/CT area. Anyone? >>> Don't know about critical mass, but I would definitely be interested in one on Long Island, or Metro NY. Increased distance would linearly decrease ability to be actively involved... From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 18 07:38:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? References: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <228D0026-208D-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16755.1490.15000.878059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16755.47401.212000.663349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Koning writes: >> FN^j$$ <--- change all vs FS change next OOPS. Brain lockup. FN means "replace next anywhere between here and end of file" while FS means "replace next in current buffer". Current buffer holds whatever fits, or up to the next form feed character. To do replace-all, you need a loop: $$;> Angle brackets are loop delimiters; semicolon is "exit loop if preceding command failed". paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 18 07:53:09 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP 11/60 Kd11-K Manual + TE-11 manual References: <101220041641.4826.416C09390003419B000012DA21603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <16755.48309.143000.718378@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "g-wright" == g-wright writes: g-wright> The second item is a maintiance manual on a TE-11 tape g-wright> drive. These look like a real challenge. ( Not sure if the g-wright> TE-16 is close enough) I don't have either manual. TE11? That doesn't sound like a DEC designation. The drives are TU10, TU16 (with later variant TE16), TU45, etc. The controller for a PDP11 might be a TM11 (for the TU10); for a bunch of the others it would be a massbus controller (RH11 or RH70) connected to the drive by way of a TM02 or TM03 formatter. What precisely is the setup? paul From wacarder at usit.net Mon Oct 18 08:04:27 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: [Simh] Gah! ascii don't work??! References: <10005319.1098053099755.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <055E33F2-2097-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <003401c4b513$00318d30$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > Ron, > > The way I always cleared the screen in Basic-Plus on RSTS on a VT50 or > > VT52 > > terminal was: > > > > PRINT CHR$(155)+"H"+CHR$(155)+"J" > > > > The CHR$(155)+"H" positions the cursor in the top left of the screen > > Then, the CHR$(155)+"J" clears the screen. > > > > This is all from memory. I haven't actually written that kind of code > > since the late 1970s. > > > > Ashley > > > > Works on the terminal.. while the terminal is pretending to be a vt52 > > ... but now still fails on the osX/Terminal but > that's ok because it probably has a non-op vt52 emulation.... One of Paul's comments reminded me of something that had temporarily slipped my memory. Although what I told you earlier should work, the more correct syntax is: PRINT CHR$(155%)+"H"+CHR$(155%)+"J" The % character indicates that the value of 155 is an integer rather than a floating point. At times the folks on our system back in the 1970s (myself included) would "cheat" and try to squeeze our source programs into as little disk space as possible, since we were only allowed 15 blocks of disk storage on our RK05 based PDP-11/40 RSTS/E system. We did bad things like remove spaces and sometimes % characters. Ashley From allain at panix.com Mon Oct 18 08:55:05 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Rescue... References: Message-ID: <006d01c4b51a$13284580$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> I have always wondered if there is critical mass for a >> vintage computer group in the NJ/NY/CT area. Anyone? > Don't know about critical mass, but I would definitely be interested > in one on Long Island, or Metro NY. Increased distance would linearly > decrease ability to be actively involved... The RCS/RI* seemed like a nice place to visit, but for me it was 2X too far at about 200 miles. For a monthly function I could stomach a travel radius about half that. William, Curt, David W, Chris B, Pete H, and Rich C are all in range for me. Travel to LI usually involves bad traffic but I can still make it there. John A. * free plug: http://www.osfn.org/rcs/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:23:23 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 made Slashdot this morning.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > VCF 7 made the front page of Slashdot this morning.. > > http://slashdot.org/articles/04/10/18/040233.shtml?tid=126&tid=137&tid=185&tid=1 > > Congrat's to Sellam.. I think. ;-) > > David ...and condolences to his late webserver. :) g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 18 07:36:15 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: <00f101c4b3d6$2a366e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: John, et. al. >>> I'd say the commitment to your wife beats the one to the VAX OBVIOUSLY. If I thought for even one second that it would have ANY impact, the whole idea of classic computer collecting would be gone from my life. On the other hand I am a bit of a pack rat, and my wfies influence does tend to server a useful purpose in keeping things within the range of reasonable, for which I am grateful (just don't let her know...] David From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Oct 18 10:22:27 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's Message-ID: <0410181522.AA12798@ivan.Harhan.ORG> O. Sharp wrote: > [*] - Our house is much too small. We're working on moving to someplace > larger where we can actually get our books and our hobby supplies and our > shop equipment and our fine china and our bondage equipment _out_ of all > the boxes we've had to put them in for the last few years. Bondage equipment? Are you a BDSM couple? Is the wife ClassicCmp-friendly? Who is the dom and who is the sub? MS From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 18 10:44:27 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? In-Reply-To: <16755.47401.212000.663349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >>> >>> FN means "replace next anywhere between here and end of >>> file" while FS means "replace next in current buffer". >>> Current buffer holds whatever fits, or up to the next form >>> feed character. >>> >>> To do replace-all, you need a loop: >>> >>> $$;> >>> >>> Angle brackets are loop delimiters; semicolon is "exit loop >>> if preceding command failed". >>> >>> paul >>> The flashbacks are happening again...They warned me these could happened for the rest of my life way back in the 1970's....Fortunately this is a pleasant one From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 18 11:33:58 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Rescue... In-Reply-To: <006d01c4b51a$13284580$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >>> John Allain Wrote: >>> The RCS/RI* seemed like a nice place to visit, but for me >>> it was 2X too far at about 200 miles. For a monthly >>> function I could stomach a travel radius about half that. >>> William, Curt, David W, Chris B, Pete H, and Rich C are all >>> in range for me. Travel to LI usually involves bad traffic >>> but I can still make it there. >>> >>> John A. >>> >>> * free plug: http://www.osfn.org/rcs/ >>> RICM is a great place!!! I have visited there a number of time (the summer open house / barbeque was GREAT!), and deal with a number of their people on a regular basis. [They have also been gratious with loans of some of their duplicate equipment] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Oct 18 11:38:30 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - TSS/8 In-Reply-To: <20041017234145.D006A3C63@spies.com> Message-ID: TSS-8 was what I started with. I am not familiar with any of the "busness" aspects as it was my school districts machine that "was just there". The configuration [IIRC] was 6x TU-56 [12 tapes] and a small amount of non-removable disk [multiple DF-32s??]. I know they added some RK-05 right at the end of the machines use [circa 1975] when everything was upgraded to PDP-11. MY primary goal in classic computing is to replicate this (on a rduced basis of course]. Any information on TSS-8 is always greatly appreciated [I have a decent collection started] as well as hardware or actual software. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 18 11:27:43 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: rack-mount Norsk Data ND100 available (Reading, UK) Message-ID: <1098116863.4868.68.camel@weka.localdomain> We've just been offered a Norsk Data ND100 (running Sintran), which according to the 'offeree' is somewhat unusual in being a rack-mount version rather than the more typical cabinet variety. I doubt the museum can take it though as we're somewhat swamped in mini- class machines at present, but it's destined for landfill otherwise. Comes with full documentation and (likely) the controlling dumb terminal and a Genicom dot-matrix printer. Was working when put into storage apparently. The hard disk and floppy are also mounted in the rack (so no seperate enormous cabinets! :-) It sounds like the company may be hanging onto the rack it was put in (which probably makes it a little easier to manage, at least for most UK folks!) but that they may be disposing of the rack too. The machine's currently in Reading, Berkshire. There doesn't seem to be much info about these on the 'net - from what I gather they're 16 bit minis with a bit-slice ALU, and microprogrammed CPU. Anyone able to save it? I can put you in touch if so. cheers, Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 18 11:46:03 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - TSS/8 Message-ID: <20041018164603.325043CEE@spies.com> Any information on TSS-8 is always greatly appreciated [I have a decent collection started] as well as hardware or actual software. -- The version that John Wilson used and the one that I used at UW-M are up at www.bitsavers.org/bits/dec/ascii (basic, johw, uwmMonitor) Binary paper tape images from John are at bits/dec/pdp8/papertapeImages/set1 The LINCtapes from Lyle Bickley's PDP-12 should have a bunch of material as well. Various versions of the manuals are at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/tss8/ -- Finding hardware capable of running the monitor will be difficult. RF08's were rare 20 years ago. All but the last versions of TSS/8 required either DF32s or RF08s for swapping, but DF32s are only 32kwords. Bob Supnik has TSS/8 running in simulation with SIMH. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Oct 18 12:02:40 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: IBM Series/1 References: <56CC28A4-1FF0-11D9-A7E1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4173F730.816AF67D@msm.umr.edu> where did the emulator come from, if public? Ron Hudson wrote: > Anyone know of any documentation on an the IBM Series/1 computer? I > just got an emulator and I want to do > *something* with it... From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 18 12:27:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 made Slashdot this morning.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, David Holland wrote: > VCF 7 made the front page of Slashdot this morning.. > > http://slashdot.org/articles/04/10/18/040233.shtml?tid=126&tid=137&tid=185&tid=1 > > Congrat's to Sellam.. I think. ;-) Yep, someone managed to get a posting through the anti-VCF filters over at /. My server managed it fine, thanks to Apache (I'm still running on an old solid P-Pro system, getting ready to transistion to a dual Xeon 450). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 18 10:46:16 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: museum phone number? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018103940.05446148@pc> I apologize again for cutting you off during our phone conversation... I was expecting someone and they'd arrived. And googling about my PC-1201 helped me remember that it had two button batteries for backup of the memory... and I remembered that I hadn't removed them in 15 years or so. They were a bit corroded but no damage was done. - John >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 09:37:57 -0500 >To: news@computercollector.com >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: museum phone number? > >At 08:39 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: >>What is the phone number for the Jefferson Computer Museum? >>I'm the editor of Computer Collector Newsletter, a weekly(-ish) e-mail >>publication for the hobby. In preparation for next month's Vintage Computer >>Festival 7.0, I'm putting together a directory of computer museums across the >>country. > >I'm at (920) 674-5200. > >The Jefferson Computer Museum isn't a real place for tourists. >It's more of a virtual museum on the web. > >- John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 18 09:50:14 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: References: <4171D869.6080709@cableone.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018094810.056b6e50@pc> At 09:33 PM 10/16/2004, William Donzelli wrote: >Probably because most people joined this list to talk about old computers. >There are a zillion places to talk about Linux. There are maybe six to >talk about old computers. It would make sense to talk about Linux as a tool to aid the hobby, of course: running emulators, data recovery and transfer, networking tricks, peripheral sharing, etc. - John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 18 12:30:22 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <5437919338dundas@caltech.edu> References: <5437919338dundas@caltech.edu> Message-ID: <20041018173022.GC13257@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 17, 2004 at 08:00:47PM -0700, dundas@caltech.edu wrote: > Which reminds me there used to be a series of "EduSystems" for the PDP-8 as I > recall. -25, -30, etc. The one I used was TU-55/-56 based, though one or more > might well have been disk-based. Have any of these been recovered? I don't have any Edusystem software, but I'd be interested in anything that cropped up. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Oct-2004 17:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.6 F (-53.1 C) Windchill -96.7 F (-71.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 079 Barometer 677.1 mb (10735. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 18 12:33:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <0410181522.AA12798@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > O. Sharp wrote: > > > [*] - Our house is much too small. We're working on moving to someplace > > larger where we can actually get our books and our hobby supplies and our > > shop equipment and our fine china and our bondage equipment _out_ of all > > the boxes we've had to put them in for the last few years. > > Bondage equipment? Are you a BDSM couple? Is the wife ClassicCmp-friendly? > Who is the dom and who is the sub? Tourette's. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 18 12:41:11 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:46:49AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I remember thinking how cool Linux was because it had xearth and Windows > didn't :-) That is my background on my _on-topic_ SPARC desktop. I've been hacking xearth recently to render the Polar regions white. Unfortunately, the shape tables are not commented, so I have to go through manually to determine what shapes correspond to what land features. First-order approximation looks pretty good, though. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Oct-2004 17:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.9 F (-53.3 C) Windchill -96.90 F (-71.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.80 kts Grid 078 Barometer 677.1 mb (10735. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 18 12:58:59 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: References: <0410181522.AA12798@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041018135713.052e4a10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > O. Sharp wrote: > > > > > [*] - Our house is much too small. We're working on moving to someplace > > > larger where we can actually get our books and our hobby supplies and our > > > shop equipment and our fine china and our bondage equipment _out_ of all > > > the boxes we've had to put them in for the last few years. > > > > Bondage equipment? Are you a BDSM couple? Is the wife > ClassicCmp-friendly? > > Who is the dom and who is the sub? > >Tourette's. I disagree... aren't those with Tourette's only supposed to bark out 'oddities' /some of the time/??? ;-) For those few remaining that wonder why he can't get a date... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 18 13:32:17 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: xearth (was: Re: Linux OS) In-Reply-To: <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 17:41 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:46:49AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I remember thinking how cool Linux was because it had xearth and Windows > > didn't :-) > > That is my background on my _on-topic_ SPARC desktop. > > I've been hacking xearth recently to render the Polar regions white. > Unfortunately, the shape tables are not commented, so I have to go > through manually to determine what shapes correspond to what land > features. Now that's pretty cool. Will you be releasing it into the wider world? :) I wonder if a modern version is overdue that does do some pretty good shading approximation of all the landmasses? And even better, some form of chaotic cloud approximation to give it that real 'earth from space' feel! The former's probably not *that* complex (just potentially a lot of effort to set the static data up). I have no idea if the latter's really possible for a desktop machine, even with some really basic approximation of clouds... cheers Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 13:42:33 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: VCF 7.0 made Slashdot this morning.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ee01c4b542$3aecc140$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > VCF 7 made the front page of Slashdot this morning.. > > http://slashdot.org/articles/04/10/18/040233.shtml?tid=126&tid > =137&tid=185&tid=1 Well that's two classiccmp related /. postings, one right after the other then: http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,11040629%5E15322%5E%5Enb v%5E15306,00.html That will undoubtedly wrap horribly. Basically the British Library is looking to preserve people's email. (Important people that is, not you and me). They have a bunch already that they cannot read as they do not have the appropriate machinery. They seem to understand the problem of not only archiving the data but also that they need to do something to try to ensure that they can actually read the stuff a few years from now. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Oct 18 14:12:07 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <0410181522.AA12798@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: Michael Sokolov wrote thus, quoting me: > > [*] - Our house is much too small. We're working on moving to someplace > > larger where we can actually get our books and our hobby supplies and our > > shop equipment and our fine china and our bondage equipment _out_ of all > > the boxes we've had to put them in for the last few years. > > Bondage equipment? Are you a BDSM couple? Is the wife ClassicCmp-friendly? > Who is the dom and who is the sub? One-liners aside, there's a limit to how far off-topic I'm willing to drift. :) -O.- From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 18 16:14:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Who knows teco? In-Reply-To: <16755.47401.212000.663349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16754.59546.293000.395030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <228D0026-208D-11D9-B671-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <16755.1490.15000.878059@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <16755.47401.212000.663349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > $$;> > > Angle brackets are loop delimiters; semicolon is "exit loop if > preceding command failed". You're giving me headaches! :-) Recollecting things loooong forgotten... Never used teco, but nspeed, Data General's clone or copy of it. Same difference. I have a little RDOS pocket command ref, I think I'll go look at the nspeed commands, maybe generate a migraine or religious experience. (Probably just indigestion). From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 18 16:21:07 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: xearth (was: Re: Linux OS) In-Reply-To: <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041018212107.GC10383@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 06:32:17PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 17:41 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I've been hacking xearth recently to render the Polar regions white. > > Unfortunately, the shape tables are not commented, so I have to go > > through manually to determine what shapes correspond to what land > > features. > > Now that's pretty cool. Will you be releasing it into the wider > world? :) Naturally. I'm really big on Open/Shared Source. > I wonder if a modern version is overdue that does do some pretty good > shading approximation of all the landmasses? And even better, some form > of chaotic cloud approximation to give it that real 'earth from space' > feel! Hmm... I just did a trivial code tweak... the hardest thing I'm doing is reviewing (and commenting!) hundreds of shape structures. > The former's probably not *that* complex (just potentially a lot of > effort to set the static data up). I have no idea if the latter's really > possible for a desktop machine, even with some really basic > approximation of clouds... The other thing is number of colors... xearth runs fine on an 8-bit desktop. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Oct-2004 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -61.6 F (-52.0 C) Windchill -95.40 F (-70.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.7 kts Grid 055 Barometer 676.4 mb (10764 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 18 16:52:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: xearth (was: Re: Linux OS) In-Reply-To: <20041018212107.GC10383@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018212107.GC10383@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1098136344.4848.133.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 21:21 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 06:32:17PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 17:41 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I've been hacking xearth recently to render the Polar regions white. > > > Unfortunately, the shape tables are not commented, so I have to go > > > through manually to determine what shapes correspond to what land > > > features. > > > > Now that's pretty cool. Will you be releasing it into the wider > > world? :) > > Naturally. I'm really big on Open/Shared Source. Well let me know when it's done! We've got a few Unix systems at the museum onto which I was going to put xearth anyway :) > > I wonder if a modern version is overdue that does do some pretty good > > shading approximation of all the landmasses? And even better, some form > > of chaotic cloud approximation to give it that real 'earth from space' > > feel! > > Hmm... I just did a trivial code tweak... the hardest thing I'm doing > is reviewing (and commenting!) hundreds of shape structures. Sure. It's a non-trivial exercise, for sure. Looking at images like (warning, big file): http://www.slc.k12.ut.us/staff/larmad/science/Images/Earth_from_space.jpg I wonder if that many colours are needed - given the scale of the globe, colour changes are very rapid. Maybe a base palette of 16 blues, greens and browns would work, with a handful of duplicates fading to various shades of grey (from black to white) to allow clouds and shadows. Do- able within a 256 colour palette for a screensaver I would think anyway - not sure if it'd require too many colours to have it as a background to a desktop on an 8 bit display though. Cloud algorithms are somewhat beyond me, however :-) Aside: We just installed a 6 CPU HP T500 the other day which is crying out for something visual on it to chew up serious CPU cycles :) I hung an 8 bit xterm off it the other day; just need to get gcc on there and then I can build some useful stuff (xfractint and POV seem like good places to start) cheers, Jules From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Oct 18 17:07:03 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - TSS/8 In-Reply-To: <20041018164603.325043CEE@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041018170416.00b529e0@localhost> I still have my DECTape from the TSS/8 at UWM (Circa 1978-79?) but all there is on it are the BASIC programs I was writing at the time. What is that, a TU-11? I can't remember the designation. It was on a PDP-8/e. Did you ever work with Dick Bartlein, or SaMilosovich? (Spelling uncertain) At 09:46 AM 10/18/2004 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >Any information on TSS-8 is always greatly appreciated [I have a >decent collection started] as well as hardware or actual software. > >-- > >The version that John Wilson used and the one that I used at UW-M are >up at www.bitsavers.org/bits/dec/ascii (basic, johw, uwmMonitor) > >Binary paper tape images from John are at bits/dec/pdp8/papertapeImages/set1 > >The LINCtapes from Lyle Bickley's PDP-12 should have a bunch of material as >well. > >Various versions of the manuals are at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/tss8/ > >-- > >Finding hardware capable of running the monitor will be difficult. RF08's >were rare 20 years ago. All but the last versions of TSS/8 required either >DF32s or RF08s for swapping, but DF32s are only 32kwords. Bob Supnik has >TSS/8 running in simulation with SIMH. "You wake me up early in the morning to tell me I am right? Please wait until I am wrong." --John von Neumann, on being phoned at 10 a.m. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 18 18:31:35 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - TSS/8 Message-ID: <20041018233135.47B193C21@spies.com> > What is that, a TU-11? -- UWM had a TU-56 drive and a TC08 controller, an RF08, and two RK05s with mods that Bart and Sam did to the monitor to support it before DEC supported them. It also had a high speed paper tape reader/punch. > Did you ever work with Dick Bartlein, or SaMilosovich? -- Yes. Bart and Sam were still around when I started. I was one of the people who dismantled the system when the 750 moved in. I still regret giving the DECtapes away to Gary Coleman in Cleveland. There is a small chance that Jeff Russ may have ended up with them when I bought Gary's collection, but I've never been able to get a DECtape inventory from him. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 18 19:28:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers Message-ID: So I'll be appearing tomorrow on The Screen Savers on G4TechTV (just about everyone in the US should be able to catch it since the merger opened up both collective channels to most major cable/satellite systems). The live show airs at 4pm PST (California) and usually repeats a couple times after that every 3 hours or so. Check your local listings for exact air times. I'll be demoing a PDP-1 front panel replica hooked to a laptop running the PDP-1 emulator on SIMH, further running Spacewar! with Phil Budne's XY simulator code. I've also constructed some Spacewar! controllers modeled after the original MIT controllers that will be used to play the game. The front panel will be blinking and all that. It should be interesting (somewhat) to watch. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 18 20:31:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? Message-ID: I'm a fair designer, but could use a hand at parts selection, to build a device to suck data off an old rotating memory. Generally-speaking, I need a little box (black box) that can slurp serial data off five parallel serial streams, synchronously. The native data rate is 80KHz, there are 128 sectors (sector = 32-bit word) per track, 4096 bits/track. Our previous discussion imposing 16X (say) sample rate on 12.5uS/bit is 1.28Msamples/sec, five channels. 4 bits vertically seems adequate. All five tracks must be sampled at the same time; internal machine timing is derived by random logic hung off the timing tracks. Channel-to-channel skew or offset would render the data worthless. Can't read one track, then the next, etc. (That said, it would be possible, if troublesome, to read only two channels at a time, where one channel is always the clock track, but that presupposes the clock track is perfect. I think with all five simultanously sampled I could "fix" a glitch in the clock track and re-write it, but that process will degrade if not simultaneous. I don't think the hardware savings are worth it.) With that assumption, it's 65536 samples/track, five tracks. With a trivial architecture of one 4-bit sample stored per memory byte, it's 320K bytes. Seeing how even little SBCs have a megabyte this will do. As I see it, my two practical (read: lazy) choices are build something around a little SBC, or some kludge around a "PC". The SBC approach: There are many $99 single board computers, many with A/D, but most of them are obsessed with bit depth (10 to 16) and not samples/sec in the lower-cost range. But sticking a five 4-bit ADCs on parallel ports, and every sample-interval, strobing all ADCs and reading 5 nybbles/bytes into local RAM, and a separate command to dump sampled data to a PC via serial port. The PC approach is to somehow wangle the five ADCs into the PC such that it will accept the 65536 5-byte (5-nybble) samples with ZERO LATENCY. There's plenty of memory, but my guess is simply adapting 5 ADCs onto the PC parallel port, or funny hardware to talk USB (and I don't think USB will guarnetee me my latency) is as much work as the SBC solution, which, if coded in assembly, will be plenty fast enough and trivial to build (and easy to test). I favor the SBC approach, as it would make a useful tool for others and it's platform independent. I can't find 4-bit flash ADCs! The smallest ADC on digikey is 8 bits, which is of course fine, but Analog Device's idea of fast is 2.5uS conversion, and they're $15/each. Anyone know of 4-bit ADCs? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 18 20:55:47 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? Message-ID: <20041019015547.194043C21@spies.com> The PC approach is to somehow wangle the five ADCs into the PC such that it will accept the 65536 5-byte (5-nybble) samples with ZERO LATENCY. -- The design I did for the analog 9 track data aquisition board uses five Analog Devices 10 bit dual 10megasample A/D's. These have parallel outs, and are synchronous (designed for direct IF amplifier digitization). The five are multiplexed into a FIFO which interfaces to a 40 pin cable to a PCI DMA IDE card. So, you end up with a ten channel synchronous data stream with a protocol that just looks like chained IDE DMAs. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 18 20:58:58 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay References: <20041019015547.194043C21@spies.com> Message-ID: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like this who can afford computer collecting since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it away' computers are long gone? From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Oct 18 21:14:04 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like this who can afford > computer collecting > since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it away' computers are > long gone? Not a suprise - the 8/s is the second rarest of the -8 line (LINC-8 being the most). They very rarely come on the market. I don't think a LINC-8 has ever been on the market. Some machines will never approach that sort of value. Picking on Honeywell again, I doubt a Level 6 will ever be worth even a tenth of a PDP-8, even in 50 years. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 18 21:30:36 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20041019023036.GB11805@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 10:14:04PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like this who can afford > > computer collecting > > since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it away' computers are > > long gone? > > Not a suprise - the 8/s is the second rarest of the -8 line I'm glad I got mine a few years ago... scarily enough, it's not my most expensive -8 (my first -8/a would qualify, but that's because I threw a KT8A, 128K MOS board and an RL8A in it at mid-1980s prices, hundreds of dollars per board). I've driven plenty of cars that cost less than that particular -8/a. > (LINC-8 being > the most). They very rarely come on the market. I don't think a LINC-8 has > ever been on the market. I certainly have never seen one available. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Oct-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.2 F (-52.3 C) Windchill -94.5 F (-70.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.6 kts Grid 050 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 18 21:33:42 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay References: Message-ID: <41747D06.3000308@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > Some machines will never approach that sort of value. Picking on Honeywell > again, I doubt a Level 6 will ever be worth even a tenth of a PDP-8, even > in 50 years. Well I have not seen any 'classic' computers sell for $380 around here. Mind you a lot of BIG IRON still can be found if you drive. ( I don't ) While I know a bit about 8's I am still finding out about the 'rare' computer systems on the net. Having DOC's and Pictures and Software on line is becoming a important way of keeping Classic Computing alive. > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Oct 18 21:37:18 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20041019023718.16007.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> The PDP8/S is the rarest and, in a quirky way, the most interesting, member of a series of machines that was particularly significant and popular among collectors. It is not surprising that it would be highly-valued. It is also an earlier machine than is often found today in restorable condition, using discrete-transistor circuitry. The particular example for sale is also very display-worthy, appearing to be truly museum-quality. I wouldn't read too much to much into this for the state of computer collecting in general, though the older (> 25 years) and rarer machines are only going to continue to increase in value. --Bill From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 18 22:27:09 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <4173F730.816AF67D@msm.umr.edu> References: <56CC28A4-1FF0-11D9-A7E1-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <4173F730.816AF67D@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: http://www.emulation.net/ It runs on Mac OS. On Oct 18, 2004, at 10:02 AM, jim stephens wrote: > where did the emulator come from, if public? > > Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Anyone know of any documentation on an the IBM Series/1 computer? I >> just got an emulator and I want to do >> *something* with it... > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 18 22:55:13 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Some machines will never approach that sort of value. Picking on Honeywell >again, I doubt a Level 6 will ever be worth even a tenth of a PDP-8, even >in 50 years. Look at it this way, the PDP-8's and PDP-11's have an advantage over a Honeywell system. Even the rarer 8's and 11's probably are easier to get parts for, and then there is the whole question of software. Of course what I'd really like is a DPS-8 emulator and a copy of GCOS-8 to run on it (or a copy of Multics). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 22:56:51 2004 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Wanted: IBM hard drives for PS/2 Model 30 Message-ID: Hello all, I have two IBM PS/2 Model 30 computers in need of hard drives. The IBM part number is 72X7568, and is a 20MB drive. This has IBM's proprietary interface that includes power and data on the same cable. If anyone has one or two of these drives available, let me know off-list, and we may be able to come to a deal... Thanks! Rich B. From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 18 23:00:04 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I'm a fair designer, but could use a hand at parts selection, > to build a device to suck data off an old rotating memory. > > Generally-speaking, I need a little box (black box) that > can slurp serial data off five parallel serial streams, > synchronously. The native data rate is 80KHz, there are 128 > sectors (sector = 32-bit word) per track, 4096 bits/track. > > Our previous discussion imposing 16X (say) sample rate on > 12.5uS/bit is 1.28Msamples/sec, five channels. 4 bits vertically > seems adequate. > > All five tracks must be sampled at the same time; internal > machine timing is derived by random logic hung off the timing > tracks. Channel-to-channel skew or offset would render the > data worthless. Can't read one track, then the next, etc. > > (That said, it would be possible, if troublesome, to read only > two channels at a time, where one channel is always the clock > track, but that presupposes the clock track is perfect. I think > with all five simultanously sampled I could "fix" a glitch in the > clock track and re-write it, but that process will degrade if not > simultaneous. I don't think the hardware savings are worth it.) > > With that assumption, it's 65536 samples/track, five tracks. > With a trivial architecture of one 4-bit sample stored per > memory byte, it's 320K bytes. Seeing how even little SBCs have > a megabyte this will do. > > As I see it, my two practical (read: lazy) choices are build > something around a little SBC, or some kludge around a "PC". > > The SBC approach: There are many $99 single board computers, > many with A/D, but most of them are obsessed with bit depth (10 > to 16) and not samples/sec in the lower-cost range. But sticking > a five 4-bit ADCs on parallel ports, and every sample-interval, > strobing all ADCs and reading 5 nybbles/bytes into local RAM, and > a separate command to dump sampled data to a PC via serial port. > > The PC approach is to somehow wangle the five ADCs into the PC > such that it will accept the 65536 5-byte (5-nybble) samples > with ZERO LATENCY. There's plenty of memory, but my guess > is simply adapting 5 ADCs onto the PC parallel port, or funny > hardware to talk USB (and I don't think USB will guarnetee me my > latency) is as much work as the SBC solution, which, if coded > in assembly, will be plenty fast enough and trivial to build > (and easy to test). > > I favor the SBC approach, as it would make a useful tool for > others and it's platform independent. > > I can't find 4-bit flash ADCs! The smallest ADC on digikey is > 8 bits, which is of course fine, but Analog Device's idea of > fast is 2.5uS conversion, and they're $15/each. > > Anyone know of 4-bit ADCs? Or am I barking up the wrong tree > here? > AD's AD7822 is $3.77 in 100s so should not be bad in low quans This is 8 bit 2 M sample/second, available in DIP. If you dont mind a surface mount part with SPI interface, the AD7478A is only $.95 for 8 bits, 1.2 MSPS Peter Wallace From AppleTO at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 00:34:00 2004 From: AppleTO at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1047a6e604101822344e9c4a5a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:49 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > SLS was what got me started with Linux in '93 You're making me feel like the new kid on the block, seeming as I started using Linux in late '94 or '95. It was some version of Slackware, and I had a bugger of a time installing it seeming as I was in the (somewhat envious?) position of having more "hard disk" space than floppies. The "hard disk" was actually a removable, attached to a marginally supported SCSI card. It's hard to believe that was almost 10 years ago. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 19 13:31:41 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Apple Mac XL/Lisa 2 Message-ID: Folks, Just collected a Mac XL (Lisa 2/10) that annoyingly was upgraded from a Lisa 1 then the back and top panels were stolen at a trade fair! This means I've got Lisa 1 internals (R41 and R47 cut from the IO board, new ROMs etc), keyboard, mouse but no twiggys or front panel, AND it has the screen kit fitted. Oh, no widget either....the hard drive is a Seagate ST225 connected to a parallel card in one of the 3 slots. Anyone know if this kit is reversible? Anyone have any spare twiggys? :o) This is as close as I'm going to get to a real Lisa 1 for the forseeable future! I also got Lisa 7/7 V3 docs and floppies, Macworks Plus box and floppies, Lisa screws/fixings kit and a Stylewriter II with a Localtalk card fitted. I haven't dared power it up yet! The Lisa is one of those beasts that's all or nothing 'cos the PSU does more than convert 240V to 5 and 12 volts. So, to recap, I'd like to get my paws on the following: 2 twiggys (possibly with the LisaLite board) Lisa 1 front panel, top panel and back cover Lisa 7/7 on twiggys (at least I know THAT's available) the moon on a stick a winning lottery ticket :oD -- Adrian/Witchy Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's biggest private home computer collection www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 19 15:55:45 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <20041019205544.FYHK14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I was recently given a Commmodore MODEM Model 8010 - this is a Bell 103 (300 bps) acoustic coupler, which has an IEEE-488 connection for use with Commodore PET computers. I am looking for: - Information on the power supply - I did not get a power supply with the modem - it has a 5-pin DIN type connector. Can anyone give me the pinout and power requirements? - Documentation? Anyone have a scan of the manual? - Information on how it is used ... What sort of IEEE device does it show up as? Is there "special software" that is used with it? etc.? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 19 16:00:49 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: LF: Western Digital 1793 or compatible FDC chip Message-ID: <20041019210048.GBBU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 13:55 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Dave, > >You can still buy 1793s new from BGMicro for $4.49. Look on page 8 of >their catalog: > >http://www.bgmicro.com/pdf/catalog.pdf > >Cheers! Thanks - I don't know why they didn't turn up while I was googling, but I downloaded their catalog, and looks like they have exactly what I need so I have ordered a couple. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cvendel at att.net Tue Oct 19 12:27:34 2004 From: cvendel at att.net (cvendel@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 keyboard/mouse Message-ID: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> Anyone have a spare Amiga 2000 kb & mouse for sale/trade? Curt From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Oct 19 14:33:09 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: Linux OS In-Reply-To: <1047a6e604101822344e9c4a5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <1047a6e604101822344e9c4a5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just out of idle curiosity.. If so many get upset about Linux discussions on the the list.. What about Solaris 2.1 x86? Ontopic by the list I find here.. http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/solaris/versions/ ;-) (Yes, I am playing devils advocate.. - Though I will admit to a concious decision to block out my days of porting XFree86 to the OS) David On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Ronald Wayne wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 11:46:49 +0000, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > SLS was what got me started with Linux in '93 > > You're making me feel like the new kid on the block, seeming as I > started using Linux in late '94 or '95. It was some version of > Slackware, and I had a bugger of a time installing it seeming as I was > in the (somewhat envious?) position of having more "hard disk" space > than floppies. The "hard disk" was actually a removable, attached to > a marginally supported SCSI card. > > It's hard to believe that was almost 10 years ago. > From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Oct 19 15:49:12 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:05 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111334F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, I have this DECpc 320P which has a 40 Mb hard disk in it. I installed a 420 Mb hard disk, but it keeps being recognized as 40 Mb. I can not find a way to get into the BIOS, and those old PC's normally had a "utility floppy" to get access to the BIOS ... fdisk says 40 Mb. I guess it is OT as it is a PCP11-CA notebook computer from DIGITAL with a 386 CPU and a sticker on it from DECcare (valid to Jun 1994), so it must be at least 10 years old :-) This beastie has a black&white screen (no colors), but the name is just perfect (PCP*11*) and I would like to run E11/SIMH on it, but 40 Mb is a little small and I have this 420 Mb disk ... Who can tell me how to get into the BIOS (assuming that I can from there change the hard disk drive parameters) ; a ZIP-file with the utility disk would also be very welcome! TIA, - Henk, PA8PDP. From unibus at gmail.com Tue Oct 19 05:59:07 2004 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: <200410181703.i9IH0Lde069336@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200410181703.i9IH0Lde069336@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Thus wrote dundas@caltech.edu: > > > Which reminds me there used to be a series of "EduSystems" for the PDP-8 > > as I recall. -25, -30, etc. The one I used was TU-55/-56 based, though > > one or more might well have been disk-based. Have any of these been > > recovered? > > Hmmm. Somewhere around here [*] I've got paper tapes of Edu-20 and > Edu-20-C, both BASIC multiuser systems for 8K+ PDP-8s. They were both for > paper-tape-only systems, say schools that could only afford the basic 8K > machine and a few Teletypes. (The Edu-20-C was basically an Edu-20 system > which could use Edu-25 commands.) Seem to remember RMIT's EduSystem used mark-sense cards as the Tech College couldn't afford the the teletype/papertape configuration. Was there a -15 version? Regards, Garry Page From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 15:13:22 2004 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20041019201322.35560.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> --- ben franchuk wrote: > A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like > this who can afford > computer collecting > since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it > away' computers are > long gone? > Long gone? For almost nothing I can fill a garage with computers in less then a month. A Vic-20 isn't more or less interesting then a PDP-8/S, if you keep an open mind about it. _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Oct 18 22:20:13 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC cables BC08J In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041019032013.GB15589@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 12:05:15AM +0000, Mike Ross wrote: > Hope someone can help... I'd like to buy or trade 3 x BC08J DEC positive > bus cables... Berg connector one end, single-sided backplane plug card the > other end......... I'd like to hook my TC08... Sorry... never even _seen_ those. You could probably make a set from a prototyping card and some ribbon cable, though. > (http://www.corestore.org/tc08.htm ) up to the positive bus / data break > Omnibus cards in one of my pdp-8e boxes. Nice. I wish I had a TC-08. Got a couple of TU-56s, one on a TD8E (the others on TC-11s). >From your pictures I can really see how "easy" it would be to wrap one of the empty slots on the right (backplane view) for an RX8E. There'd also be plenty of room for one of my other ideas - an RX8E-like controller made up of M-series logic, no RX8E (since I have a limited number of them and a box of spare modules) It might fill most of the open space, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. (I've had this dream for years to put an RX01 on a PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i... I've run OS/8 on ONMIBUS hardware since 1984, but I've _really_ wanted to run it on a TTL CPU). Sorry I can't help with the cables, but thanks for the great pictures. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Oct-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.1 F (-52.3 C) Windchill -95 F (-70.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10 kts Grid 053 Barometer 675.6 mb (10792. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 19 02:18:35 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: <20041019015547.194043C21@spies.com> References: <20041019015547.194043C21@spies.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Al Kossow wrote: > The design I did for the analog 9 track data aquisition board > uses five Analog Devices 10 bit dual 10megasample A/D's. These > have parallel outs, and are synchronous (designed for direct > IF amplifier digitization). The five are multiplexed into a > FIFO which interfaces to a 40 pin cable to a PCI DMA IDE card. Those IQ ADCs? The IDE interface is probably beyond me, though I can see it's completely the way to go, though it means some serious hardware and software work. From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 19 02:08:04 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > AD's AD7822 is $3.77 in 100s so should not be bad in low quans > > This is 8 bit 2 M sample/second, available in DIP. Thanks, I found a bunch of half-flash parts on AD's site, pretty close, thanks. It got me started looking in the right place. Maxim has MAX153, somewhat older MAX153, million samples/sec 8 bits, parallel out, 5V, DIP. I asked for samples... From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 19 12:00:24 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay Message-ID: <200410191700.KAA08990@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "ben franchuk" > >A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like this who can afford >computer collecting >since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it away' computers are >long gone? > > > > Hi Although, I didn't bid on this item, what I hate the most about eBay is that if I bid what I'm willing to pay and I'm the second to highest bidder, I realize that the other fellow would have gotten the unit for less, had I not bid at all. Somehow, I feel bad about that. If there were several others out bidding me, then what the heck. Dwight From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 19 19:02:06 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041019200206.008fd500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Just testing. I haven't gotten anything from the list all day. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 20 01:23:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: test References: <3.0.6.32.20041019200206.008fd500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001701c4b66d$60a45750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Missing your classiccmp fix Joe? :) I neglected to install the new hard drive yet, as I was still digesting all the pros and cons discussed on the list with regards to should software or hardware raid be used. I was leaning towards software to keep the cost down, but an initial look-see into ccd made it look like if a drive failed, the system would stay up but upon reboot it would fail (ie. it couldn't boot from the secondary drive). This makes me start leaning towards a hardware card which likely offers that. Sorry for the delay folks. I'll get the new drive installed soon. It's been sitting in my car too long now :) And yes, the old drive locked up again and I just drove down and reset it tonight. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: test > Just testing. I haven't gotten anything from the list all day. > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Oct 20 02:44:30 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20041019015547.194043C21@spies.com> <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In message <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> ben franchuk wrote: > A pdp-8/S is selling for $3,825. With prices like this who can afford > computer collecting > since all the 'kid you have free - if you carry it away' computers are > long gone? I see what you mean. Someone was selling a Commodore 64 in the local Free-ads paper a while back - C64, broken PSU, a couple of games, sold as seen, ?150. This was back when the going rate for a second-hand 400MHz PCs was ?100. I actually spoke to the seller over the phone - "I paid ?100 for it in 1989 so I want ?150 for it now - there are people that collect these machines, they're worth a lot, only made a hundred of them you know." Uuuuggghhhh.... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Is this yours? Your dog left it on my lawn ... From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 04:36:04 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111334F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111334F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <26c11a64041020023655b76a81@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:49:12 +0200, Gooijen H wrote: > Hi all, > I have this DECpc 320P which has a 40 Mb hard disk in it. > I installed a 420 Mb hard disk, but it keeps being recognized as 40 Mb. > I can not find a way to get into the BIOS, and those old PC's normally > had a "utility floppy" to get access to the BIOS ... fdisk says 40 Mb. > > I guess it is OT as it is a PCP11-CA notebook computer from DIGITAL > with a 386 CPU and a sticker on it from DECcare (valid to Jun 1994), > so it must be at least 10 years old :-) > This beastie has a black&white screen (no colors), but the name is just > perfect (PCP*11*) and I would like to run E11/SIMH on it, but 40 Mb is > a little small and I have this 420 Mb disk ... > > Who can tell me how to get into the BIOS (assuming that I can from there > change the hard disk drive parameters) ; a ZIP-file with the utility disk > would also be very welcome! > > TIA, > - Henk, PA8PDP. > I know these machines only have 46 or so built in geometries of disk type. If your hard drive doesn't match these then I think your out of luck. But you still need the setup program. Have you tried ftp.digital.com ? Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 20 06:01:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Apple Mac XL/Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098270079.8093.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-19 at 19:31 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Anyone have any spare twiggys? :o) Oi - we've got first dibs on any ;-) I believe the one we're getting is minus the twiggys unfortunately. Sounds like it's currently in a barn too, so it'll probably come with chickens! > the moon on a stick I can do you the stick for a small fee... From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Oct 20 06:16:56 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113352@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Thanks Dan, I feel a bit silly, but it was late last night is my excuse. "DECpc 320P" in Google gave a link to floppy images on a COMPAQ site. I will try them this evening, but it is good to know that the DECpc "knows" a limited number of hard disks. If I can 'upgrade' to some 300 Mb of the 420 Mb capacity it is still better than the 40 Mb that I have available at this point. - Henk, PA8PDP. > I know these machines only have 46 or so built in geometries of disk > type. If your hard drive doesn't match these then I think your out of > luck. But you still need the setup program. Have you tried > ftp.digital.com ? > > Dan From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Oct 20 06:55:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20041019201322.35560.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> Long gone? For almost nothing I can fill a garage with >>> computers in less then a month. A Vic-20 isn't more or less >>> interesting then a PDP-8/S, if you keep an open mind about it. But ViC-20's are sure a lot easier to move around! Also, I have a VIC-20 here in very good condition with a Koala pad! Willing to trade for a PDP-8 (reasonible cash offers also accepted) From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Oct 20 07:00:02 2004 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Intercept Jr. (was Re: Blowing Up Old Computers( early laptops)) In-Reply-To: <000001c23e1c$82842560$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <200410201200.IAA06452@smtp.9netave.com> Andy - I was cleaning out my email yesterday and I came across a discussion we had a couple of years ago regarding your Intersil Intercept Jr. Do you still have this system? If so, would you consider selling/trading it? I've been wanting to play with one of these for a while. Thanks for your time! -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andy Holt Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:13 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Intercept Jr. (was Re: Blowing Up Old Computers( early laptops)) > Speaking of such things, does anyone have an Intersil Intercept Jr.they'd > be willing to trade? > I do have one of these in working order complete with (well-thumbed!) manual ... however, I was thinking of putting it up on eB*y. Andy (in the UK) From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Wed Oct 20 06:17:35 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113352@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20041020221735.014a8670@pop-server> At 01:16 PM 10/20/04 +0200, you wrote: > Thanks Dan, > >I feel a bit silly, but it was late last night is my excuse. >"DECpc 320P" in Google gave a link to floppy images on a COMPAQ site. >I will try them this evening, but it is good to know that the DECpc >"knows" a limited number of hard disks. If I can 'upgrade' to some >300 Mb of the 420 Mb capacity it is still better than the 40 Mb that >I have available at this point. If none of the drive types in the BIOS are a close match for the HDD you want to use you could use a disk manager. >From memory they are still available on the Maxtor and Seagate websites, but of course those version only work with Maxtor/Seagate HDDs. There were commercial versions that weren't restricted to specific HDDs, but I wouldn't know where to find them. I've used them before when I've had no other option, they work ok with DOS/Win9x, no idea about other OS's. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 20 07:55:44 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <417474E2.9060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020075403.1033e858@pc> At 09:14 PM 10/18/2004, William Donzelli wrote: >Not a suprise - the 8/s is the second rarest of the -8 line (LINC-8 being >the most). They very rarely come on the market. I don't think a LINC-8 has >ever been on the market. Wow! I remember interfacing to a Linc-8 at WHA-TV at UW-Madison in '83 or so. It had something to do with feeding weather reports to the closed-captioning system, and I linked it to RSTS/E so people could get weather reports online... I wonder what happened to it. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 20 08:03:58 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> At 07:28 PM 10/18/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >So I'll be appearing tomorrow on The Screen Savers on G4TechTV (just about >everyone in the US should be able to catch it since the merger opened up >both collective channels to most major cable/satellite systems). Episodes 10/18 and 10/19 are now up on http://www.suprnova.org as 161 meg downloads, if you want them. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 20 08:05:07 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Fwd: Re: museum phone number? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018103940.05446148@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041018103940.05446148@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080414.05fc7ab0@pc> At 10:46 AM 10/18/2004, John Foust wrote: >I apologize again for cutting you off during our phone >conversation... I was expecting someone and they'd arrived. >And googling about my PC-1201 helped me remember that Whoops, that was a private message. Please ignore. And don't forget to ignore this message if you already forgot the other one. - John From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 20 08:26:34 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC cables BC08J References: <20041019032013.GB15589@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <01c701c4b6a8$6bc43c00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> > On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 12:05:15AM +0000, Mike Ross wrote: > > Hope someone can help... I'd like to buy or trade 3 x BC08J DEC positive > > bus cables... Berg connector one end, single-sided backplane plug card the > > other end......... I'd like to hook my TC08... > > Sorry... never even _seen_ those. You could probably make a set from a > prototyping card and some ribbon cable, though. I have two BC08J spares, but I also have a bunch of Posibus equipment and two 8/Es (and an 8/a), so I'm not eager to part with them. I didn't realize these were scarce; I have some (relatively trivial) CAD drawings for replacement BC08J paddles, if that will help. I think someone could panelize 4 of them and get the panel done for about $104, or less (per paddle) if more paddles are desired. If you want gold on the edge connectors, that will undoubtedly cost more. The work I am doing on Posibus/Negibus cables for earlier PDP-8s uses a different paddle, unfortunately (which is more general overall, but has no 40-pin connector). (The BC08J paddles I drew will also do Negibus compatibly with these paddles, but won't do anything else but Posibus/Negibus.) Vince PS The Negibus paddles should arrive here in a few days. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Oct 20 08:27:20 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC cables BC08J References: <20041019032013.GB15589@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16758.26552.289000.763604@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 12:05:15AM +0000, Mike Ross wrote: >> Hope someone can help... I'd like to buy or trade 3 x BC08J DEC >> positive bus cables... Berg connector one end, single-sided >> backplane plug card the other end......... I'd like to hook my >> TC08... Ethan> Sorry... never even _seen_ those. You could probably make a Ethan> set from a prototyping card and some ribbon cable, though. That may not work... you want controlled impedance cable. I looked for the spec, but didn't see it; it may be the same as Unibus cable, which is documented in the Unibus handbook. Conventional ribbon cable is not controlled impedance, though there exists higher end cable that is. paul From news at computercollector.com Wed Oct 20 08:31:58 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> Message-ID: <20041020133158.59079.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> How do you open these files? I'm not familiar with this "torrent" thing... tried renaming them to just .asf for Windows Media Player 10, but got some error message about the wrong codec or whatever. --- John Foust wrote: > At 07:28 PM 10/18/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >So I'll be appearing tomorrow on The Screen Savers on G4TechTV (just about > >everyone in the US should be able to catch it since the merger opened up > >both collective channels to most major cable/satellite systems). > > Episodes 10/18 and 10/19 are now up on http://www.suprnova.org as > 161 meg downloads, if you want them. > > - John > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 575 readers and counting! From evan947 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 08:34:48 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> Message-ID: <20041020133448.43759.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Nevermind, figured it out. --- John Foust wrote: > At 07:28 PM 10/18/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >So I'll be appearing tomorrow on The Screen Savers on G4TechTV (just about > >everyone in the US should be able to catch it since the merger opened up > >both collective channels to most major cable/satellite systems). > > Episodes 10/18 and 10/19 are now up on http://www.suprnova.org as > 161 meg downloads, if you want them. > > - John > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 575 readers and counting! From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 20 08:43:34 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041020093713.03bcd8b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 07:28 PM 10/18/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >So I'll be appearing tomorrow on The Screen Savers on G4TechTV (just about > >everyone in the US should be able to catch it since the merger opened up > >both collective channels to most major cable/satellite systems). > >Episodes 10/18 and 10/19 are now up on http://www.suprnova.org as >161 meg downloads, if you want them. Not to sound like a dork, but how does one access them? For example, the filename it tries to save through Mozilla is: G4TechTv_The_Scr_Savers_10_18_04[1].asf.torrent [[ I'm not sure what the .torrent ending is... ]] and methinks it thinks that it's a streaming file (or at least that's what Mozilla thinks), as it's only a 12K file that is downloaded. IE does the same thing... :-/ Apologies for being a moron, but beyond MPEGs, I don't know video from a hole in the ground... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From vrs at msn.com Wed Oct 20 08:44:45 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: DEC cables BC08J References: <20041019032013.GB15589@bos7.spole.gov> <16758.26552.289000.763604@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <01f701c4b6aa$f5d837a0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> From: "Paul Koning" > Ethan> Sorry... never even _seen_ those. You could probably make a > Ethan> set from a prototyping card and some ribbon cable, though. > > That may not work... you want controlled impedance cable. I looked > for the spec, but didn't see it; it may be the same as Unibus cable, > which is documented in the Unibus handbook. > > Conventional ribbon cable is not controlled impedance, though there > exists higher end cable that is. It is pretty easy to find ribbon that is spec'd for impedance. It would say it is more a matter of avoiding the low-end ribbon, these days. The older Negibus/Posibus cables are spec'd for 93 ohm coax. I suspect you'd do OK with 100 ohm ribbon. I think a tougher issue with ribbon is how to keep the cables from sitting on top of each other and having a mess of crosstalk. The older coax doesn't have that problem :-). I am also building a few Negibus/Posibus cables out of CAT5e, in an attempt to mitigate that problem. Vince From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 20 08:57:12 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <20041020133158.59079.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> <20041020133158.59079.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020085436.112797a0@pc> At 08:31 AM 10/20/2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: >How do you open these files? I'm not familiar with this "torrent" thing... >tried renaming them to just .asf for Windows Media Player 10, but got some >error message about the wrong codec or whatever. First you need to install the BitTorrent client. It talks to the peer-to-peer network. The .torrent file is just a link, it's not the movie. Once the client is installed, if you open a .torrent link, it'll connect to the network and download the file. Then you'll be in WMP-land. - John From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 20 09:36:27 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > AD's AD7822 is $3.77 in 100s so should not be bad in low quans > > > > This is 8 bit 2 M sample/second, available in DIP. > > Thanks, I found a bunch of half-flash parts on AD's site, pretty > close, thanks. It got me started looking in the right place. > > Maxim has MAX153, somewhat older MAX153, million samples/sec > 8 bits, parallel out, 5V, DIP. I asked for samples... > For 1 Million samples per second you might be able to use one of our PCI FPGA I/O cards. Its just a target device so 1 million 32 bit readings per second is about the top speed but it could do the clock generation, syncronous sampling (say 5 channels x 6 bits per word) and have a small (1 K word or so) FIFO to allow for interrupts etc. I'm willing to donate a card (and make a simple FPGA config) if you like. Peter Wallace From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Oct 20 10:03:34 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: References: <200410181703.i9IH0Lde069336@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 8:59 PM +1000 10/19/04, Unibus wrote: > > Thus wrote dundas@caltech.edu: >> >> > Which reminds me there used to be a series of "EduSystems" for the PDP-8 >> > as I recall. -25, -30, etc. The one I used was TU-55/-56 based, though >> > one or more might well have been disk-based. Have any of these been >> > recovered? >> >> Hmmm. Somewhere around here [*] I've got paper tapes of Edu-20 and >> Edu-20-C, both BASIC multiuser systems for 8K+ PDP-8s. They were both for >> paper-tape-only systems, say schools that could only afford the basic 8K >> machine and a few Teletypes. (The Edu-20-C was basically an Edu-20 system >> which could use Edu-25 commands.) > >Seem to remember RMIT's EduSystem used mark-sense cards as the Tech >College couldn't afford the the teletype/papertape configuration. Was >there a -15 version? Yes, I still have a few of those cards laying around. Also have the plastic template (sometimes) used to help code various binary things on the cards. Quite interesting. It would be fun to find the right reader for these. One of the interesting applications for these was contributed to the DECUS program library by a high school here in southern California (Lompoc, or thereabouts, ISTR). The application was a football scouting program. Specially printed cards were given to the scouts to mark. The cards recorded each play in some detail. The data on the cards were then analyzed by the program and opponent tendencies charted. [I thought I had a copy of the program somewhere. I'll need to look further.] -15 sounds plausible from my faulty memory. IIRC, there were 5 or 6 versions of EduSystem, all with slightly different feature sets. I think we've got a pretty good handle on the PDP-11 OSs, it would be nice to develop the definitive list (and then archive) of PDP-8 OSs. John From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 20 10:34:52 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> References: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> Message-ID: <95E28A4C-22AD-11D9-8483-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Weirdstuff has an Amiga of some sort... www.weirdstuff.com On Oct 19, 2004, at 10:27 AM, cvendel@att.net wrote: > Anyone have a spare Amiga 2000 kb & mouse for sale/trade? > > > > Curt > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 20 11:28:02 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> from "cvendel@att.net" at Oct 19, 2004 05:27:34 PM Message-ID: <200410201628.i9KGS25e015960@onyx.spiritone.com> > Anyone have a spare Amiga 2000 kb & mouse for sale/trade? You might try one of the following: http://www.softhut.com http://www.mrhardwarecomputers.com/ http://www.ebay.com Zane From aaronwald at gmail.com Wed Oct 20 12:07:05 2004 From: aaronwald at gmail.com (Wald) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <200410201628.i9KGS25e015960@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> <200410201628.i9KGS25e015960@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <3e3de52404102010072cb784d2@mail.gmail.com> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Commodore_Amiga_Retro/ On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 09:28:02 -0700 (PDT), Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > Anyone have a spare Amiga 2000 kb & mouse for sale/trade? > > You might try one of the following: > http://www.softhut.com > http://www.mrhardwarecomputers.com/ > http://www.ebay.com > > Zane > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 20 11:28:38 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <20041020133158.59079.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020080259.111c05b8@pc> <20041020133158.59079.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020110757.051ac040@pc> Yup, there he is, from 34:15 to 40:15 on the 10/19 show... a great description of what classic collecting is about. The twenty-something host says he paid $350 on eBay for a shrinkwrapped Windows 1.0. (Gee, I knew my shrinkwrap machine would come in handy someday.) - John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 20 13:55:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <20041019205544.FYHK14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041019205544.FYHK14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20041020185539.GA19479@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Oct 19, 2004 at 04:55:45PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I was recently given a Commmodore MODEM Model 8010 - this is > a Bell 103 (300 bps) acoustic coupler, which has an IEEE-488 > connection for use with Commodore PET computers. > > I am looking for: > > - Information on the power supply - I did not get a power supply > with the modem - it has a 5-pin DIN type connector. Can anyone > give me the pinout and power requirements? Can't help there, but worst case, it shouldn't be difficult to reverse-engineer the power supply... if there is some kind of regulator, it might take a wide range of voltages. If not, then one of the pins is probably +5V. It's old enough that I wouldn't assume it uses a C-64 supply or even the voltages for the C-64 (+5VDC, 9VAC), but it's worth looking at. > - Documentation? Anyone have a scan of the manual? Not me; sorry. Perhaps on funet? > - Information on how it is used ... What sort of IEEE device does it > show up as? Is there "special software" that is used with it? etc.? Worst case, you could write a quick BASIC program to try OPENing all the devices from 4 to 31 and see where it responds (once you get the power issue resolved). Without docs, it'll be hard to tell if there are any significant secondary addresses, though. As for special software, there should be at least a simple term program for it. It's possible to write one in BASIC - I did for the C-64 (with a VIC-MODEM). You'll have to do ASCII<->PETSCII conversion if you want to talk to a host expecting a VT100 or something similar. I used to use my simple term prog to talk to BBSes and CompuServe, c. 1982. It did everything I needed except download files (which wasn't how I was using the modem back in those days - I did mail, chat, online games, etc.) Again, check funet for anything related to the 8010. Nice find. I've never seen one. Good luck on the hunt for docs. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Oct-2004 18:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.7 F (-54.3 C) Windchill -93.7 F (-69.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 068 Barometer 677.3 mb (10727. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 20 14:15:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041020110757.051ac040@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > Yup, there he is, from 34:15 to 40:15 on the 10/19 show... > a great description of what classic collecting is about. Thanks! I just wish the stage lights didn't wash out the activity on the front panel (it really was blinking away...I swear it!) > The twenty-something host says he paid $350 on eBay > for a shrinkwrapped Windows 1.0. (Gee, I knew my shrinkwrap > machine would come in handy someday.) I teased him about that :) But he was happy with it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 14:48:06 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <101920041727.28538.41754E860009F3BA00006F7A2160383116040A0B020A900C@att.net> Message-ID: <20041020194806.55359.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I have some Amiga Keyboards and Mices. I will send them both for a total of $20, including shipping. Steve. --- cvendel@att.net wrote: > Anyone have a spare Amiga 2000 kb & mouse for > sale/trade? > > > > Curt > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From tomj at wps.com Wed Oct 20 15:09:40 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > For 1 Million samples per second you might be able to use one of our PCI FPGA > I/O cards. Its just a target device so 1 million 32 bit readings per second is > about the top speed but it could do the clock generation, syncronous sampling > (say 5 channels x 6 bits per word) and have a small (1 K word or so) FIFO to > allow for interrupts etc. I'm willing to donate a card (and make a simple FPGA > config) if you like. I'm a bit unclear on what this thing is... is there a URL I could read on what this device does? What I have as input are five "analog" signal sources, either raw head signal (NRZ), or NRZ-state decoded 20-volt logic levels; suitably level-shifted and bandpassed. My plan so far is this: * Take N reads of raw head data, first. * Take N reads of derived "digital" data, second. (Quickly, with the initial assumption that memory spin time is degrading the media, until proven otherwise.) Then offline, decode the digital data first. I know what they are supposed to look like. The three timing tracks, S1 S2 S3, generate the various machine states within each minor cycle (word cycle), and with 128 sectors, there's a lot of redundancy with which I could recreate bum sector timing. Sector address is it's own track, a simple table. The clock track is simple. If all that's good, then I know my NRZ data from the head is good, and that I have sufficient data to recreate the timing tracks if necessary, hell, I could do it with a PC parallel port and drivers. If it's bad, then I can examine the raw head NRZ data and determine what the problem is and if it's fixable (low gain, bad head, etc). There's spare heads and the tracks seem fairly wide.) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:00:30 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Apple Mac XL/Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Small update! Lisa will power up with a different memory board in but won't boot from either the widget or LisaOS/MacWorks bootdisks so more work is needed. Of course, the boot disks I'm using could be toast so next step is to try them in my other Lisa (or Fat Mac I suppose) to see if they're readable. Failing that I can create new ones...... More as it happens, should anyone be interested. cheers a > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 19 October 2004 19:32 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Apple Mac XL/Lisa 2 > > Folks, > > Just collected a Mac XL (Lisa 2/10) that annoyingly was > upgraded from a Lisa > 1 then the back and top panels were stolen at a trade fair! > This means I've got Lisa 1 internals (R41 and R47 cut from > the IO board, new ROMs etc), keyboard, mouse but no twiggys > or front panel, AND it has the screen kit fitted. Oh, no > widget either....the hard drive is a Seagate ST225 connected > to a parallel card in one of the 3 slots. > > Anyone know if this kit is reversible? Anyone have any spare > twiggys? :o) This is as close as I'm going to get to a real > Lisa 1 for the forseeable future! > > I also got Lisa 7/7 V3 docs and floppies, Macworks Plus box > and floppies, Lisa screws/fixings kit and a Stylewriter II > with a Localtalk card fitted. > > I haven't dared power it up yet! The Lisa is one of those > beasts that's all or nothing 'cos the PSU does more than > convert 240V to 5 and 12 volts. > > So, to recap, I'd like to get my paws on the following: > > 2 twiggys (possibly with the LisaLite board) Lisa 1 front > panel, top panel and back cover Lisa 7/7 on twiggys (at least > I know THAT's available) the moon on a stick a winning lottery ticket > > :oD > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Owner/Curator of Binary Dinosaurs, quite probably the UK's > biggest private home computer collection > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online museum > www.aaghverts.co.uk - *the* site for advert whinges! > www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - former gothic shenanigans :( > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:01:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20041019201322.35560.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> from "steve" at Oct 19, 4 01:13:22 pm Message-ID: > computers in less then a month. A Vic-20 isn't more or > less interesting then a PDP-8/S, if you keep an open > mind about it. I totally diaagree with that comment. My interest in computers is hardware related (I follow Steve Ciarcia in that 'my favourite language is solder' :-)). And to me, therefore, a bit-serial processor made from either simple integrated circuits or discrete transistors (I forget which the 8/S is) is a lot more interesting than a machine built round a microprocessor and, even worse, semi-custom video and sound ICs. Different people have different interests, sure, and I am not saying that those who like the VIC20 (and similar machines) are in any way 'wrong'. It's just not my main interest. -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 20 17:27:55 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20041019201322.35560.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041020222755.GB32234@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 10:01:16PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I totally diaagree with that comment. My interest in computers is > hardware related (I follow Steve Ciarcia in that 'my favourite language > is solder' :-)). And to me, therefore, a bit-serial processor made from > either simple integrated circuits or discrete transistors (I forget which > the 8/S is) is a lot more interesting than a machine built round a > microprocessor and, even worse, semi-custom video and sound ICs. It's 100% discrete transistors (though the external console device, a PT08, has some early Motorola ICs on the W706 and W707 boards). > Different people have different interests, sure, and I am not saying that > those who like the VIC20 (and similar machines) are in any way 'wrong'. > It's just not my main interest. Well... I can agree with you that hardware is utterly fascinating. OTOH, I also do a lot of programming, from firmware to applications, so strictly personally, I find both the VIC-20 and the PDP-8/S interesting. I can spend hours to weeks working on either one, doing different things (and have!) There are some people on this list (Jerome Fine comes to mind as an example) that are completely fixated on the software side of things; the specific hardware is unimportant if it runs the right software. Different machines have different fascinations to me, but one thing they all have that holds my interest is hardware fiddling... I love to build new peripherals, repair old ones, etc. *But*... once things are working, I also like to 'make them dance' - hardware only goes so far, then you need software to show it off (something a friend of mine learned years ago when he was strictly a design engineer - he was done when the device would run some code, any code; then, it was handed over to the developers who made a product out of it. He does software now). So I like to do different things with computers... I don't do any much hardware fiddling on a 1.5GHz PeeCeeoid running RedHat, nor assembly programming, but I do _lots_ of application programming on it (ZDungeon, LCDproc, etc.) OTOH, I don't do lots of application programming on the PET anymore (I did when it was my primary machine 25 years ago), but I still do hardware projects and the occasional assembler program. With PDP-8s, it's more hardware than software, and on it goes. Everybody has their own niche. I'm happy with mine. Gives me lots to do. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 20-Oct-2004 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.5 F (-55.4 C) Windchill -93 F (-69.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.4 kts Grid 098 Barometer 677.1 mb (10735. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From go at ao.com Wed Oct 20 17:53:01 2004 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4176EC4D.8000106@ao.com> I watched as well, and saw the lights blinking away. The screensavers set lighting seems to be much "hotter" since they moved to LA and it really washes out most "white" things (such as the front panel lamps...) I messed with my projector's brightness and contrast a bit and it was MUCH clearer. Beautiful panel work, by the way... -Gary Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Thanks! I just wish the stage lights didn't wash out the activity on the >front panel (it really was blinking away...I swear it!) > > From charlesb at otcgaming.net Wed Oct 20 18:00:40 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers References: <4176EC4D.8000106@ao.com> Message-ID: <001101c4b6f8$9fdd1f70$7dc3033e@gamemachine> does anyone happen to have a copy of it in avi or whatever, for us poor sods over here that dont get the channel (I cant even get channel 5 here - or satellite for that matter, unless I pay for a bloke to come out and put a sky dish on a stupid pole on the other side of sum1 elses house). regards charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Oliver" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers >I watched as well, and saw the lights blinking away. The screensavers set >lighting seems to be much "hotter" since they moved to LA and it really >washes out most "white" things (such as the front panel lamps...) I messed >with my projector's brightness and contrast a bit and it was MUCH clearer. > > Beautiful panel work, by the way... > > -Gary > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> >>Thanks! I just wish the stage lights didn't wash out the activity on the >>front panel (it really was blinking away...I swear it!) >> > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 16/10/2004 From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Oct 20 18:46:27 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <20041020234626.FAPP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Ethan, >> I was recently given a Commmodore MODEM Model 8010 - this is >> I am looking for: >> - Information on the power supply - I did not get a power supply >> with the modem - it has a 5-pin DIN type connector. Can anyone >> give me the pinout and power requirements? > >Can't help there, but worst case, it shouldn't be difficult to >reverse-engineer the power supply... if there is some kind of >regulator, it might take a wide range of voltages. If not, then >one of the pins is probably +5V. It's old enough that I wouldn't >assume it uses a C-64 supply or even the voltages for the C-64 >(+5VDC, 9VAC), but it's worth looking at. It's got a regulator, and some logic - a 6402 UART, and another completely unmarked 40-pin chip - I'm guessing it's an PET-IEEE controller of some sort. Other apparent power sources from the connector head off into a maze of op-amps and other analog circuitry, even with schematics it would take a bit of work to figure out what supplies it was designed for... I'm hopeing that I can find someone with this modem that can measure the pins on the "wall wart" - at least then I have a starting point, knowing the approximage no-load supply voltages. (It is a wall-wart, I found a picture which shows the power-supply). >> - Documentation? Anyone have a scan of the manual? > >Not me; sorry. Perhaps on funet? > >> - Information on how it is used ... What sort of IEEE device does it >> show up as? Is there "special software" that is used with it? etc.? > >Worst case, you could write a quick BASIC program to try OPENing all the >devices from 4 to 31 and see where it responds (once you get the power >issue resolved). Without docs, it'll be hard to tell if there are any >significant secondary addresses, though. > >As for special software, there should be at least a simple term program >for it. It's possible to write one in BASIC - I did for the C-64 (with >a VIC-MODEM). You'll have to do ASCII<->PETSCII conversion if you want >to talk to a host expecting a VT100 or something similar. I used to >use my simple term prog to talk to BBSes and CompuServe, c. 1982. It >did everything I needed except download files (which wasn't how I was >using the modem back in those days - I did mail, chat, online games, >etc.) > >Again, check funet for anything related to the 8010. Didn't find a thing on funet - I do have a local PET software expert who can probably figure some of it out, but again, if I can find hard docs or software it would save some head-scratching... Google didn't turn up much except for a couple of pictures. >Nice find. I've never seen one. Good luck on the hunt for docs. Thanks, I did find a few references to it, and here is a fairly decent picture (shows front-on view as well as both ends): http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/hardware/pet_acc_coupler1.JPG Next time I update my site I will include my own pics, but I just updated so that will be a little while. I got it quite by accident - I talked my wife into a 2-hour detour on our Thanksgiving getaway (would have been a 10-hour drive later) to pick up a "small load" of equipment that had been promised to me - I also warned her to "pack light" -- ha..ha.. I completely filled the back of my Jeep from floor to ceiling (which we ended up hauling around all weekend). After I had everything packed, the guy started digging out little bits of stuff from his garage, which I kept stuffing into nooks and crannies, near the end he offered me this acoustic coupler, and it was only because it said "Commodore" on it that I decided to find room for it (by then it was getting pretty hard to find ANY space) - it wasn't until several days after unpacking and going through the stuff that I looked at it closely, and realized that it had the PET-IEEE interface. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 20 19:23:34 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <20041020234626.FAPP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041020234626.FAPP11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20041021002334.GC11781@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 07:46:27PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Ethan, > It's got a regulator, and some logic - a 6402 UART, and another > completely unmarked 40-pin chip - I'm guessing it's an PET-IEEE > controller of some sort. OK... the 6402 UART is one of the ones that I think can be interfaced to simple logic - i.e., it doesn't _require_ a microprocessor to read or write to it. I think there's one in an IEEE-serial box I have from TNW. I know there's no uP in there. As for the 40-pin chip, unless it's something like a 6500/1 (a micro- controller-like relative of the 6502, as found in the 1520 plotter), you might try looking at the 24 and 28 pin chips for a 6504 or something like it... It's a 6502 with a short address bus. C= used them in various disk and printer products. Same die AFAIK, but a smaller package cuts mfg costs if you don't need 16-bit addressing. I have no knowledge of 8010 internals, but I have been around a few printers and a lot of disk devices. > Other apparent power sources from the connector head off into a maze > of op-amps and other analog circuitry, even with schematics it would > take a bit of work to figure out what supplies it was designed for... Hmm... that makes it hard. > I'm hopeing that I can find someone with this modem that can measure > the pins on the "wall wart" - at least then I have a starting point, > knowing the approximage no-load supply voltages. (It is a wall-wart, > I found a picture which shows the power-supply). Sure... that's always easiest. > Didn't find a thing on funet - I do have a local PET software expert who > can probably figure some of it out, but again, if I can find hard docs > or software it would save some head-scratching... Google didn't turn up > much except for a couple of pictures. That's unfortunate but not surprising... it's not a common thing. If I had one, I'm not even sure I could find a use for it. I'm happy to have a third-party IEEE-serial adapter, and a fits-in-a-ROM-socket 6551 board as well. I did a lot of user-port interfacing as a kid (dual 7- segment LED display, external keyboard, "Simon" from a 1978 Byte article, etc...), but never played with serial comms. I _did_ do a bunch with my C-64, once I got one. > >Nice find. I've never seen one. Good luck on the hunt for docs. > > Thanks, I did find a few references to it, and here is a fairly decent > picture (shows front-on view as well as both ends): > > http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/hardware/pet_acc_coupler1.JPG Cool. > I got it quite by accident - I talked my wife into a 2-hour detour on our > Thanksgiving getaway... Nice find. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Oct-2004 00:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.2 F (-55.7 C) Windchill -92 F (-68.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.7 kts Grid 100 Barometer 676.5 mb (10760 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Oct 20 19:22:26 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Appearance on G4TechTV's The Screen Savers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041020093713.03bcd8b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041020093713.03bcd8b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: In message <5.1.0.14.2.20041020093713.03bcd8b0@mail.30below.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Not to sound like a dork, but how does one access them? For example, the > filename it tries to save through Mozilla is: > > G4TechTv_The_Scr_Savers_10_18_04[1].asf.torrent > > [[ I'm not sure what the .torrent ending is... ]] It means it's a Torrent file, i.e. a BitTorrent link. You need either Bittorrent, ABC ("Another Bittorrent Client") or Shareaza to download it. The idea is, when you're downloading, your machine contributes parts of the file to other people, thereby spreading the load. One machine (the "tracker") keeps track of everyone who's downloading and uploading. If you're on dialup, don't waste your time - you'll be there until Hell freezes over trying to download - Bt is designed to give you roughly what you upload back in terms of download. So if you upload at 50k/sec, you'll get about the same (sometimes more) back. If you don't upload anything, you get a 2k/sec download. Usually when your maching gets around 5-10% of the file, the transfer rate rockets. Also make sure that if you're behind a NAT, your NAT is set to forward the relevant ports, or you'll get the dreaded Really Slow Download... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... OPEC : Our Pollution Encompasses Continents From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Oct 18 14:39:16 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: more good auction finds. Message-ID: <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> Some more good auction finds: Well, the IBM s/390 in good working condition (it was a generation 3, not 4) went for $125.00. The whole row of IBM stuff went for around $800. I thought the s/390 cabinet might be useful as a walk-in closet though :-) I consoled myself with a LS ADM3A beehive terminal with the lower-case rom (works great, no burn-in, excellent condition ) for $5.00 and a couple more alpha's..spent arount $15.00 Yesterday, I picked up another alphaserver 2100, mainly for parts, although it works pefectly, it only has 1 275mhz proc and 1 128MB ram board, a coupla fddi controllers and 4-5 disks; 26z,28z,29z. and a single power supply I got three of these beasts now..I'm sorry, it's a bad habit. A big pallet of miscellaneous stuff for around $7.50 that include quite a few dec cables, a decserver 90M, two cartons of new Exatape 170m AME 8mm tapes, (unfortunatley I only have a sun EL820 7/14GB tape drive) whole bunch of office stuff and a couple more dec fddi cards and cables and a 56k pci modem, along with a huge amount of 4-pin <--> rj45 serial cables. The real find though was an complete, (monitor,keyboard,cable) apparently non-working, Digital Professional 350. On inspection, it has a 000042 CTI-bus card, which is a CTI DECNA ethernet card...woohoo. Spent around 30 dollars for everything. Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Oct 19 00:40:11 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay References: Message-ID: <000201c4b705$810403e0$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> for real fun write a Honeywell 1000 emulator Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:55 PM Subject: Re: Sell's your 8's on Ebay > >Some machines will never approach that sort of value. Picking on > >Honeywell >>again, I doubt a Level 6 will ever be worth even a tenth of a PDP-8, even >>in 50 years. > > Look at it this way, the PDP-8's and PDP-11's have an advantage over a > Honeywell system. Even the rarer 8's and 11's probably are easier to get > parts for, and then there is the whole question of software. > > Of course what I'd really like is a DPS-8 emulator and a copy of GCOS-8 to > run on it (or a copy of Multics). > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Oct 20 19:58:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:06 2005 Subject: more good auction finds. In-Reply-To: <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> References: <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> Message-ID: <20041021005800.GA25245@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 12:39:16PM -0700, Tom Ponsford wrote: > The real find though was an complete, (monitor,keyboard,cable) apparently > non-working, Digital Professional 350. On inspection, it has a 000042 > CTI-bus card, which is a CTI DECNA ethernet card...woohoo. > > Spent around 30 dollars for everything. Nice! Check the PSU - I had one die on my Pro380 last year. Not sure what to tell you about repair - haven't delved into it yet. I'd love to haev a DECNA in my Pro380 - especially when I get around to loading some flavor of 2BSD or something similar on it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Oct-2004 00:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.2 F (-55.7 C) Windchill -93.59 F (-69.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.3 kts Grid 085 Barometer 676.1 mb (10772. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Oct 20 20:30:28 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <20041021013027.HAHY11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >That's unfortunate but not surprising... it's not a common thing. If >I had one, I'm not even sure I could find a use for it. I have to admit - I do not have a burning desire to connect to anything at 300 bps --- But I do have a burning desire to see it work. These are a questions that seems to have different answers from different collectors: - To use or not to use - To fix or not to fix - To power-up or not to power-up I spend plenty of hours fixing things that I know I'll never really use --- I like to know that the items in my collection actually work, and will continue to work as long as I can maintain them. I guess my idea of preserving this material means preserving it in working condition. I also LIKE fixing this stuff... I like the challenge of tracing a problem, and the insight that comes from figuring out how a particular design works. I know collectors who rake all the stuff up into a big pile and never even try it - just "having" is enough. I know collectors who check that it works, and then never turn it on again, because "it might stop working". I know collectors who focus on a very small area, and actually use the equipment on a daily basis. Personally, I cycle through the things in my collection frequently - I try and run everything at least once or twice a year (usually several times a year). I enjoy fooling with the different machines. I also demonstrate them working at every opportunity - I've taken vintage machines to local schools to let kids experience some of "how we got here", I take them out to local clubs and meets, and I show them to anyone who wants to drop by and see them. I often loan them out, although I do want to satisfy myself that they will be reasonably well taken care of first. Whats the point of storing all this stuff unless people can actually experience it - otherwise, why not just keep a pile of pictures. If a machine breaks - I fix it. IMHO, a machine that you can't use because "it might break" is no more useful than a machine that doesn't work in the first place. So - most anything that comes in here I try and get working. In this case, I think it would be "cool" to be able to demonstrate a PET connected through the 8010 IEEE modem to my Hayes S-100 modem (also a 103 type) in an Altair running a BBS system - This would show how it really worked! - but I don't expect anyone to actually want to use such a setup for any other purpose. Curious to know what others do with the vintage equipment you have stashed away in basement/garage etc. Regards, Dave-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Oct 18 15:40:24 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: more good auction finds. In-Reply-To: <20041021005800.GA25245@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> <20041021005800.GA25245@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <41742A38.5040108@theriver.com> > > Check the PSU - I had one die on my Pro380 last year. Not sure what to tell > you about repair - haven't delved into it yet. Well I just powered it on, but I'll have to decipher the diagnostic light codes in the back, and also dig out my good-known-working cable and monitor, to make sure it is not a fault with either of those. I do have two good working dec 350's. I also have a Russian Elektronica-85, which is an identical clone of the dec 350. It unfortunatly DOES have a bad PSU. As I am rusty on my cyrillic alphabet, and having no working documentation on the power supply, it will be slow going. Although the Electronica is "supposed" to be identical to the Pro 350, The wiring connector(s) are really alien, leaving me to suspect that the wiring might not be identical to decs. The worse thing I could do is muck around with and blow-out something I could never hope to replace. It really is an interesting machine, almost identical to the Pro350 in dimensions and look, even the way it opens up and is arranged.It does have some differences though (like the cpu) and I think the CTI bus cage is not electrically identical. I will play with the Dec350 tomorrow or later this week, and if it proves to be something I can't fixed I'll move the DECNA card over to my other Pro350. I believe I might even have the ethernet software (POS) for the card around here somewhere. > > I'd love to haev a DECNA in my Pro380 - especially when I get around to > loading some flavor of 2BSD or something similar on it. They are as rare as hen's teeth, and I would have paid handsomely to get one if I could ever even find one, and this one fell into my lap..real cheap too!! Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 20:38:35 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <20041021002334.GC11781@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 21, 4 00:23:34 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 07:46:27PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hi Ethan, > > It's got a regulator, and some logic - a 6402 UART, and another > > completely unmarked 40-pin chip - I'm guessing it's an PET-IEEE > > controller of some sort. > > OK... the 6402 UART is one of the ones that I think can be interfaced > to simple logic - i.e., it doesn't _require_ a microprocessor to read Correct. It's got separate transmit and receive (parallel) data pins, baud rate clock inputs, word lenght/parity/stop bit configuration pins, and so on. It's quite easy to connect to random logic. > or write to it. I think there's one in an IEEE-serial box I have from > TNW. I know there's no uP in there. There was a relatively common PET->RS232 interface in the UK called the B200. It contained a 6402-like UART, a baud rate generator ckip, a couple of 2708s (one as a PETSCII<->ASCII converter and address decoder, the other as the handshake state machine logic) and not a lot else. I hesitate to called it an IEEE488-> RS232 interface, since the handshake timing was way off, and while it works with PETs, it fails to work with many other IEEE488 controllers. > > As for the 40-pin chip, unless it's something like a 6500/1 (a micro- > controller-like relative of the 6502, as found in the 1520 plotter), Unless there's some EPROM/ROM in there, it's unlikely to be a microprocessor. It might even be a gate array. > > Other apparent power sources from the connector head off into a maze > > of op-amps and other analog circuitry, even with schematics it would > > take a bit of work to figure out what supplies it was designed for... > > Hmm... that makes it hard. Hard, but not impossible. It should be possible to trace the 5 pins of that DIN socket. I'll bet one of them is ground (which you must be able to find). You mention a regulator. Where does the output of that go (+5V line to the lgoic). And does the input come from a pin on the DIN socket (that should give you a good guess as to what goes in there). Now look at the power pins to the op-amps. Maybe they go straing to the DIN socket (in which case I'll go for +/-12V there). Maybe more regulators (if so, do the inputs come from the DIN sockets). And so on. I suspect it would be possible to come up with a supply that works. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 20:43:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 In-Reply-To: <20041021013027.HAHY11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 20, 4 09:30:28 pm Message-ID: > I spend plenty of hours fixing things that I know I'll never really > use --- I like to know that the items in my collection actually work, > and will continue to work as long as I can maintain them. I guess my > idea of preserving this material means preserving it in working > condition. I also LIKE fixing this stuff... I like the challenge of > tracing a problem, and the insight that comes from figuring out how > a particular design works. [...] > Curious to know what others do with the vintage equipment you have stashed > away in basement/garage etc. I'm with you in this. I like to have all my collection working (some of it I use -- this PC is well over 10 years old, heck the linux distro I'm running is getting towards being on-topic). I enjoy tracking down faults, I enjoy fixing them, and I enjoy seeing how a machine was designed and built back then. That said, I take some care before applying power. In fact turning it on is one of the last things I do. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 20 21:07:18 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20041020222755.GB32234@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > It's 100% discrete transistors (though the external console device, a PT08, > has some early Motorola ICs on the W706 and W707 boards). Mine is a hybird. Most of the Flip Chips are oddball versions of standard modules with strange thick film (I think) modules in place of the discrete transistors, diodes, and resistors. A short lived DECproject, apparently. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 20 21:16:12 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: HP drive thing Message-ID: The first person, if not Jay, that wants a HP 2888A Disc File plastic panel in very nice shape, can have it for postage. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From CCTalk at catcorner.org Wed Oct 20 21:47:41 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Help MAC Quadra 600 OS Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C1E@mail.catcorner.org> OK. So I somehow hosed the boot drive on the Quadra I found the other day. All I did was unplug it to try and install A/UX on a new drive. I plugged the old drive back in after the A/UX install failed, and now I can't boot the quadra. There wasn't anything of great value on the disc, I would just like to be able to get the machine up and running System 7.5.3 (or whatever the latest free one was). Can anyone provide me with an ISO image of this? All I have available to create discs are PCs and they just aren't that easy to create a Mac image with (at least not yet). Any suggestions on what I could do to rescue the drive I killed somehow? Thanks, Kelly From cb at mythtech.net Wed Oct 20 22:11:18 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Help MAC Quadra 600 OS Message-ID: >OK. So I somehow hosed the boot drive on the Quadra I found the other day. >All I did was unplug it to try and install A/UX on a new drive. I plugged >the old drive back in after the A/UX install failed, and now I can't boot >the quadra. There wasn't anything of great value on the disc, I would just >like to be able to get the machine up and running System 7.5.3 (or whatever >the latest free one was). Can anyone provide me with an ISO image of this? >All I have available to create discs are PCs and they just aren't that easy >to create a Mac image with (at least not yet). > >Any suggestions on what I could do to rescue the drive I killed somehow? I assume you are talking about a Quadra 800 not a 600. Try zapping the PRAM. Turn the Mac on, and hold Command-Option-P-R until you hear the startup bong again. Keep holding until it has cycled 3 times. See if it boots from the drive. If not, does this Mac have a CD Rom drive? I can send you a bootable CD with a System 7.5.5 installer. -chris From CCTalk at catcorner.org Wed Oct 20 22:15:39 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Help MAC Quadra 800 OS Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C20@mail.catcorner.org> > From: Kelly Leavitt [mailto:CCTalk@catcorner.org] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:48 PM > To: 'cctalk@classiccmp.org' > Subject: Help MAC Quadra 600 OS > > > OK. So I somehow hosed the boot drive on the Quadra I found > the other day. OK Everything else is the same, just that it is an 800, not a 600... From CCTalk at catcorner.org Wed Oct 20 22:21:36 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Help MAC Quadra 600 OS Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C21@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: chris [mailto:cb@mythtech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:11 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help MAC Quadra 600 OS > > > > I assume you are talking about a Quadra 800 not a 600. Try > zapping the > PRAM. Turn the Mac on, and hold Command-Option-P-R until you hear the > startup bong again. Keep holding until it has cycled 3 times. Yep, it is an 800, not 600. I just tried this and still NADA. > > If not, does this Mac have a CD Rom drive? I can send you a > bootable CD > with a System 7.5.5 installer. Yes, it has a CD drive. I am located in northwest NJ. I can ftp the image if you have a place to host it temporarily. What ever is easiest for you. > > -chris > > Thanks, Kelly From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 20 22:26:05 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron Message-ID: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sorry for the off-topicness... I googled to find a comparison between these two chips with regards to relative performance and can't find anything. Can anyone point to a spot that has some definitive comparisons between the two? Figured someone here might know... Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 20 22:47:13 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron In-Reply-To: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >Sorry for the off-topicness... I googled to find a comparison >between these two chips with regards to relative performance and >can't find anything. Can anyone point to a spot that has some >definitive comparisons between the two? > >Figured someone here might know... > >Jay Well... The PA-8500 is a true 64-bit CPU, and the Opteron is a kludge. What more do you need to know. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 20 23:58:43 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience running MS-DOS 6.22 on VPC? I've managed to get Win3.1 running in SVGA mode at 600x800, and I've got some of my old DOS software copied over. What I really want to know how to do is access the CD-ROM, Ethernet Card, and if possible get video drivers for the S3 card that VPC emulates. Oh, and I need a mouse driver for the PS/2 Mouse so I can run a couple games :^) In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: AROS BeOS 4.5 BeOS Max MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 Windows 98SE Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as mapping folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac printer. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 21 00:07:58 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Collection in Ga on eBay Message-ID: $100 - from an IBM S36 / AS400 down to bits and pieces of mid-old PC junk.... no reserve - over 450 hits and not one bid, so far... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5131728889&rd=1 Read thru the inventory - a non-trivial collection. Cheers John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 21 01:19:14 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Typewriters? Message-ID: <200410210624.CAA14041@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I seem to recall people mentioning, here, typewriters - good old non-computerized typing machines. I know someone who is looking for one. Doesn't need to be fancy; indeed, fancy is a disadvantage here, or I would have already set said person up with a computer+printer solution. "Electric, but not electronic." It does need to be functional, though; the idea is to use it, not put it on display or suchlike. Anyone got one and willing to let go of it for some reasonable amount? I can write a cheque for the machine plus shipping and scare up a shipping address, if there's reason to. (I phrase it that way because the place it'd be going is in a very rural area of western Canada, and I'm not sure what shipping methods would be workable - but I can find out from the putative recipient.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 02:20:23 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 20, 2004, at 9:58 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: > AROS > BeOS 4.5 > BeOS Max > MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 > Windows 98SE > Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) > What's an AROS? Virtual PC should have come with the cdrom driver and MSCDEX Modules using memory below 1Mb: Name Total = Conventional + Upper Memory -------- ---------------- ---------------- ---------------- IBMDOS 15,632 (15K) 15,632 (15K) 0 (0K) SETVER 784 (1K) 784 (1K) 0 (0K) HIMEM 816 (1K) 816 (1K) 0 (0K) ANSI 3,600 (4K) 3,600 (4K) 0 (0K) CDROM 4,208 (4K) 4,208 (4K) 0 (0K) <----- COMMAND 2,656 (3K) 2,656 (3K) 0 (0K) FSHARE 48,144 (47K) 48,144 (47K) 0 (0K) MSCDEX 21,984 (21K) 21,984 (21K) 0 (0K) <------ SMARTDRV 29,840 (29K) 29,840 (29K) 0 (0K) IDLE 528 (1K) 528 (1K) 0 (0K) MOUSE 8,896 (9K) 8,896 (9K) 0 (0K) CMDEDIT 12,144 (12K) 12,144 (12K) 0 (0K) FREE 506,128 (494K) 506,128 (494K) 0 (0K) Memory summary: Type of Memory Total = Used + Free ---------------- ----------- ----------- ----------- Conventional 655,360 149,232 506,128 : From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Oct 21 02:52:29 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113353@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I found the SET320P.EXE program on the COMPAQ site, and it allows several items 'normally' found in a BIOS to be manipulated. Alas, there is no field to change the hard drive parameters nor the type! The disk manager was a good idea, I have one old 486 PC with a big Western Digital drive, too big to be supported by the BIOS, and the EZ-DRIVE disk manager works perfectly here. However, EZ-DRIVE only accepts to work with Western Digital drives, and the 2.5" hard disk that I have is from HP. The disk manager also wants certain settings for the hard disk in the BIOS ... Still not giving up / one more try: could somebody point me to a site that has a non-commercial disk manager (for HP or not restricted to specific HDDs) or even better e-mail a ZIP with such disk manager? TIA, - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dr. Ido > Sent: woensdag 20 oktober 2004 13:18 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: access to BIOS of DECpc > > > At 01:16 PM 10/20/04 +0200, you wrote: > > Thanks Dan, > > > >I feel a bit silly, but it was late last night is my excuse. > >"DECpc 320P" in Google gave a link to floppy images on a COMPAQ site. > >I will try them this evening, but it is good to know that the DECpc > >"knows" a limited number of hard disks. If I can 'upgrade' to some > >300 Mb of the 420 Mb capacity it is still better than the 40 Mb that > >I have available at this point. > > If none of the drive types in the BIOS are a close match for > the HDD you want to use you could use a disk manager. > > >From memory they are still available on the Maxtor and Seagate > websites, but of course those version only work with Maxtor/Seagate > HDDs. There were commercial versions that weren't restricted to > specific HDDs, but I wouldn't know where to find them. > > I've used them before when I've had no other option, they work ok > with DOS/Win9x, no idea about other OS's. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Oct 21 02:52:03 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041021084350.0562bec0@pop.freeserve.net> At 05:58 21/10/2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Does anyone have any experience running MS-DOS 6.22 on VPC? I've managed >to get Win3.1 running in SVGA mode at 600x800, and I've got some of my old >DOS software copied over. > >What I really want to know how to do is access the CD-ROM, Ethernet Card, >and if possible get video drivers for the S3 card that VPC emulates. Oh, >and I need a mouse driver for the PS/2 Mouse so I can run a couple games :^) What model S3 card is it? I may have some old driver discs about here for S3.. CD-ROMS you usually need a driver in the config.sys (try pinching the one off a Win98 boot floppy) and MSCDEX in the autoexec.bat to link it to a drive letter. Network is easy enough; grab the TCP/IP extensions for Win3.11 (they used to be on Microsoft's website, but I don't know if they still are. I ought to have a copy of them too, somewhere..) and you can use these outside of Windows too, once set up. This will also allow you to map network drives, access printers, etc, (assuming you have SMB compatible shares somewhere). >In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: >AROS >BeOS 4.5 >BeOS Max >MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 >Windows 98SE >Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) > >Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as mapping >folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac printer. > > Zane > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bert at brothom.nl Thu Oct 21 04:21:11 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Sell's your 8's on Ebay References: Message-ID: <41777F87.FB7E7C4A@brothom.nl> Tony Duell wrote: > > I totally diaagree with that comment. My interest in computers is > hardware related (I follow Steve Ciarcia in that 'my favourite language > is solder' :-)). And to me, therefore, a bit-serial processor made from > either simple integrated circuits or discrete transistors (I forget which > the 8/S is) is a lot more interesting than a machine built round a > microprocessor and, even worse, semi-custom video and sound ICs. I totally aggree with you. > Different people have different interests, sure, and I am not saying that > those who like the VIC20 (and similar machines) are in any way 'wrong'. > It's just not my main interest. Same here. Bert From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 21 02:44:39 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113353@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20041021184439.014c6af0@pop-server> At 09:52 AM 10/21/04 +0200, you wrote: >I found the SET320P.EXE program on the COMPAQ site, and it allows >several items 'normally' found in a BIOS to be manipulated. Alas, >there is no field to change the hard drive parameters nor the type! > >The disk manager was a good idea, I have one old 486 PC with a big >Western Digital drive, too big to be supported by the BIOS, and the >EZ-DRIVE disk manager works perfectly here. >However, EZ-DRIVE only accepts to work with Western Digital drives, >and the 2.5" hard disk that I have is from HP. The disk manager >also wants certain settings for the hard disk in the BIOS ... > >Still not giving up / one more try: could somebody point me to a >site that has a non-commercial disk manager (for HP or not restricted >to specific HDDs) or even better e-mail a ZIP with such disk manager? Have you tried using a generic CMOS editting program, such as the one built into QAplus? It may allow you to change options that aren't in the setup320p program. I find it strange that there is no option to change the HDD type or parameters. I've seen other laptops (mainly toshibas) that lacked HDD options in their setup utils, but they detected the HDD on bootup, no settings where needed. It's been a long time since I last installed a disk manager. From memory the ones that I used (maxblast? ontrack? whatever quantum supplied back in the day) set the CMOS drive type to 1, but the actual setting is usually irrelevant. The machine will still boot the hdd with the disk manager on it even if the drive type is set to something else. I can't think of any non-commercial versions, but I seem to recall that an early version (early enough that it was supplied on a 5.25" floppy) of the Ontrack disk manager that was supplied with various Seagate "retail" hdd was not restricted to specific hdds. I may still have a copy, but I have no idea where it is right now. I had many copies at one stage, but I was a C64\TRS80 user at the time and they were cheaper than blank disks. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Thu Oct 21 04:14:12 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410210214.13310.gsutton9503@wavecable.com> On Thursday 21 October 2004 12:20 am, Ron Hudson wrote: > On Oct 20, 2004, at 9:58 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: > > AROS > > BeOS 4.5 > > BeOS Max > > MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 > > Windows 98SE > > Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) > > What's an AROS? > http://www.aros.org/ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 06:15:21 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: <41777F87.FB7E7C4A@brothom.nl> Message-ID: >>> Tony Duell wrote: >>> > >>> > I totally diaagree with that comment. My interest in computers is >>> > hardware related (I follow Steve Ciarcia in that 'my favourite >>> > language is solder' :-)). I also have a large interest in the hardware details of the machines. On the other hand I am a complete (though professionally trained) Klutz when it comes to working with it. Great in theory, poor in practice (but that is really another topic). >>> > And to me, therefore, a bit-serial processor made from >>> > either simple integrated circuits or discrete transistors >>> > (I forget which the 8/S is) is a lot more interesting >>> > than a machine built round a microprocessor and, even worse, >>> > semi-custom video and sound ICs. Here I disagree a bit. I worked for a firm that designed custom Monolithics and hybrid products. From a repairability aspect this Effectively makes them "bricks". The functional detailes of these Products were however well documented and it was possible to Learn most of the inner workings. Items like custon-video and sound tend to be totally proprietary and Their inner workings a mystery. On the other hand, processors tend to be very well documented on the inner workings. These I find just (or nearly) as interesting with the only downside that I can learn but not modify or repair. Regardless of the processor/OS/language/etc, I truly believe that It is impossible to write great software without an understanding Of the internal hardware. True, we do not (typically) need to think through every register/register transfer for application design. But Still..... From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 21 06:17:27 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: "Compact" tape drive? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041021071543.03214ae8@192.168.0.1> And for the grand prize -- name the style of this tape drive! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5132851939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT My guess is, "Compact". :-) Ed K. From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Oct 21 06:19:26 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: "Compact" tape drive? Message-ID: <12613002.1098357566811.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> it looks more like a silver topped potty... you must have to "dump" the tape in... -----Original Message----- From: Ed Kelleher Sent: Oct 21, 2004 7:17 AM To: cctalk Subject: "Compact" tape drive? And for the grand prize -- name the style of this tape drive! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5132851939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT My guess is, "Compact". :-) Ed K. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 06:39:54 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <20041021113953.VSLW14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> As for the 40-pin chip, unless it's something like a 6500/1 (a micro- >> controller-like relative of the 6502, as found in the 1520 plotter), > >Unless there's some EPROM/ROM in there, it's unlikely to be a >microprocessor. It might even be a gate array. There is no ROM that I could see... Also, this chip is completely unmarked - flat plack plastic DIP with no lettering. >> > Other apparent power sources from the connector head off into a maze >> > of op-amps and other analog circuitry, even with schematics it would >> > take a bit of work to figure out what supplies it was designed for... >> >> Hmm... that makes it hard. > >Hard, but not impossible. It should be possible to trace the 5 pins of >that DIN socket. I'll bet one of them is ground (which you must be able >to find). You mention a regulator. Where does the output of that go >(+5V line to the lgoic). And does the input come from a pin on the DIN >socket (that should give you a good guess as to what goes in there). Now >look at the power pins to the op-amps. Maybe they go straing to the DIN >socket (in which case I'll go for +/-12V there). Maybe more regulators >(if so, do the inputs come from the DIN sockets). And so on. I suspect it >would be possible to come up with a supply that works. Agreed that it's possible, and when I get the time I will go through it, I was just explaining why it would be nice to have someone measure the power supply pins so that I would have a starting place. I can basically identify all of the pins on the power socket - but I heasitate to assume +/-12 for the analog - It would be nice to at least have a no-load measurement... If I can't find any information, it may come down to doing what you suggest. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 06:39:57 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Message-ID: <20041021113956.VSMJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I'm with you in this. I like to have all my collection working (some of >it I use -- this PC is well over 10 years old, heck the linux distro I'm >running is getting towards being on-topic). I enjoy tracking down faults, >I enjoy fixing them, and I enjoy seeing how a machine was designed and >built back then. > >That said, I take some care before applying power. In fact turning it on >is one of the last things I do. Me too. First I clean out all the dead flies, mice droppings, cobwebs and whatever else may have accumulated - this usually involves some level of disassembly, which is required anyway for the next step. Then I do a detailed visual inspection, paying special attention to "power" components, looking for discolored capacitors, resistors etc. I also look for corrosion in sockets/connectors, and anything else that looks at all out of the ordinary - I spend a fair bit of time at this. I always apply initial power through a current limiter (light bulb), which also gives me a visual indication as to how much power it is drawing. If possible, I disconnect the power-supply and energize it separately, measuring voltages. If it's analog, I ramp it up through a variac, monitoring the outputs and current draw as it comes up to operating voltage. If I can't disconnect the supply, I disconnect what I can, and pull anything socketed that I would have a tough time replacing. I don't like running equipment I am not familier with chips pulled - so I do so only long enough to verify that all power rails come up right. Recheck power rails with everything connected. Once powered up, I scope the power-rails to check for excess noise, hum etc. If the equipment does not "come up", I shut it down and do another visual. Then it's on to normal circuit debugging. The above routine may vary from one piece of equipment to another, depending on it's exact characteristics... Anything you would add? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Oct 21 06:56:41 2004 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron In-Reply-To: References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4177C019.23145.5D90C43@localhost> Am 20 Oct 2004 20:47 meinte Zane H. Healy: > >Sorry for the off-topicness... I googled to find a comparison > >between these two chips with regards to relative performance and > >can't find anything. Can anyone point to a spot that has some > >definitive comparisons between the two? > Well... The PA-8500 is a true 64-bit CPU, and the Opteron is a > kludge. What more do you need to know. Define true and kludge. One could argue the Opteron is a tru 64 Bit while the PA is a kuldge .. *G* Serious, it's the old game what is an n-bit CPU - is a 68008 an 8 Bit CPU, a 16 or a 32 Bit one? If it's the buswidth, then a Pentium is already a 64 Bit CPU... is it the (work) register width, then it's 32, and looking at the typical instruction encodeing, it's 16 Bit ... Oh, and don't forget the ALU size (another problem, which ALU to choose, since modern CPUs have usualy several)... If you're looking at the AMD64 vs. PA Ric, I can't see any relevant difference. Both are working with 8, 16, 32 and 64 Bit integers on a regular base, both have an opcodescheme that is optimized for the most common (or at least most common as the designers see it) data types (8, 32 and 64), and both can perform the usual every day tasks of a general purpose CPU without minding any special quirks. Performancewise (as the original question was), SPEC95 is usualy an acceptable measure. See here for data from 99 http://www.heise.de/ix/benchmarks/SPEC/rh9909/rh9909_5.html Not realy new, but a quite nice look at SPEC http://www.heise.de/ix/benchmarks/SPEC/rh9909/default.html SPEC is also the first place you should look if you want to compare CPUs performancewise. But they publish the latest results (go on CPU/ CPU2000/Pusblished or for the older to http://www.specbench.org/cpu95/results/ ) I GHz AMD Athlons had rates arround 45 here, so when just calculateing the PA-Result linear, we come to the same region... now, the AMD64 seams to be roughly 3-4 times as fast as the old 1 GHz Atlon at the same clock level ... so get your fugures here. Performancewise I think the Opteron is top notch at the moment. And personaly, I don't care what bit pattern initiates a certain operation in my Server, as long as the price/performance ratio is as good as possible - also a reason why I'm now switching to mini-ITX boards as workstations. Not realy fast, but nice all in one, for a real low price. And as usual YMMV - means, it realy depends on your task. Isn't that the big number game between AMD and Intel? Just look what kind of 'real world' example Intel uses to show their advantage. The P4 has a rather long pipeline, which allows high speeds when goin thru predictable sequences (and a big malus then not), so for jobs like MP3 or Video encodeing here raher long, FPU intense and often repeated sequences on linear datasets are to be performed, it oursuns AMDs Athlon by sheere MHz and is only limited by the bus bandwith for data (that's why Intel did realy soup up the bus over the last versions). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 6.0 am 30.April und 01.Mai 2005 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 07:53:25 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113353@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113353@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <4177B145.7040400@sbcglobal.net> Gooijen H wrote: > I found the SET320P.EXE program on the COMPAQ site, and it allows > several items 'normally' found in a BIOS to be manipulated. Alas, > there is no field to change the hard drive parameters nor the type! .... > Still not giving up / one more try: could somebody point me to a > site that has a non-commercial disk manager (for HP or not restricted > to specific HDDs) or even better e-mail a ZIP with such disk manager? > > TIA, > - Henk, PA8PDP. > I might have an OnTrack Disk Manager floppy at home. I'll let you know tomorrow... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 08:36:36 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: (Fwd) FW: UCSD Pascal Reunion Symposium 10/22 In-Reply-To: <416A9640.21576.5031486@localhost> References: <416A9640.21576.5031486@localhost> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021083358.05121fc0@pc> At 04:18 PM 10/11/2004, Stan Sieler wrote: >Of possible interest to UCSD Pascal fans... This wasn't explicitly pointed-out in Stan's message, but there are interesting interviews (in Real .rm video) of Prof. Ken Bowles and others at: http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news_events/release.sfe?id=303 Prof. Nicklaus Wirth ("Europeans call him by name, but Americans call him by value") will be in Mountain View at CHM this week, I hope he'll make it to the Pascal reunion down at UCSD on Friday... - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 21 08:45:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: "Compact" tape drive? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041021071543.03214ae8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <16759.48523.571059.858000@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: Ed> And for the grand prize -- name the style of this tape drive! Ed> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5132851939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Beats me, I don't see a tape drive in that picture... The same seller seems to be selling solder that he thinks is gold... a nonstandard alloy, 26 pounds worth of solder bars for $2000. Usual price for solder bars, new, standard alloys, is around $5.30 to $6 per pound... paul From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 21 08:46:28 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X Message-ID: >Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as >mapping folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac >printer. I'm sure I've mapped DOS in VPC to both shared folders and printers. Although this would have been with much older versions of VPC (v1, 2 or 3). I do know for sure that I have run WIn95 with both. But who knows, this is now MS VPC, so I'm sure they made any features that might be useful work exclusively with whatever version of Windows they want to make you use. -chris From bobcaar at softhome.net Thu Oct 21 09:10:28 2004 From: bobcaar at softhome.net (Devon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041021101028.0120b620@pop.softhome.net> I've used a copy of Ontrack Disk Manager (~version 4?) from Seagate and it works with any brand drive. If you still need it, I can dig it out when I'm home in a couple of weeks and image it. I believe it will work with any settings in the BIOS, although it does recommend certain ones. T.H.x. Devon --------Original Message--------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:52:29 +0200 From: Gooijen H Subject: RE: access to BIOS of DECpc I found the SET320P.EXE program on the COMPAQ site, and it allows several items 'normally' found in a BIOS to be manipulated. Alas, there is no field to change the hard drive parameters nor the type! The disk manager was a good idea, I have one old 486 PC with a big Western Digital drive, too big to be supported by the BIOS, and the EZ-DRIVE disk manager works perfectly here. However, EZ-DRIVE only accepts to work with Western Digital drives, and the 2.5" hard disk that I have is from HP. The disk manager also wants certain settings for the hard disk in the BIOS ... Still not giving up / one more try: could somebody point me to a site that has a non-commercial disk manager (for HP or not restricted to specific HDDs) or even better e-mail a ZIP with such disk manager? TIA, - Henk, PA8PDP. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 09:33:37 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: "Compact" tape drive? / Solder In-Reply-To: <16759.48523.571059.858000@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:46 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: "Compact" tape drive? >>> >>> >>>>> "Ed" == Ed Kelleher writes: >>> >>> Ed> And for the grand prize -- name the style of this tape drive! >>> Ed> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5132 >>> 851939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT >>> >>> Beats me, I don't see a tape drive in that picture... >>> Seller is updating picture on the tape drive.... Solder bars look to be a non-standard, but not uncommon alloy. (Nassau Recycling is located about 50 miles from my house, I have delt with them in the past). Price does appear to be ludicrous! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 21 09:34:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 In-Reply-To: <20041021113956.VSMJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041021113956.VSMJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-10-21 at 07:39 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Anything you would add? The comment made recently about memory drawing excess current if inputs are left floating is interesting though. Proof that you do need to know about the system you're testing as taking the modular approach to powering up doesn't always work and might actually do more harm than good. The other thing I'd add to that is to always use a dummy form of mass storage in place of any real media, even after you're confident that the power supply is OK - just in case on first full boot the system decides to stomp all over the media. Back up ROMs if possible before attempting any power up too. Oh, and before doing anything let the system aclimatise* if it's been moved. Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going unnoticed. *or is it acclimatise? Or acclimatize for you across-the-ponders... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 21 09:41:19 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: drum stores Message-ID: <1098369679.921.42.camel@weka.localdomain> we're getting a drum store! Just been offered a late 1960's BCL Susie accounting machine - delay line accumulator and all the usual suspects (card reader, tape reader / writer etc.). Best thing being that it has a 64 track drum - as you know I've been after a machine with a drum for the museum for some time now. Sounds like it's been in a shed for the last ten years though so the owner's checking what kind of state it's in. Experience is that machines of that era survive moisture remarkably well though, so fingers crossed. Moving it's going to be interesting. :-) cheers Jules -- "We've had a lot of loonies around this place, but you're the first one who thought the sunrise was made out of stale beer. Now are you going to pick up your flute and leave, or shall I part your hair with this crowbar?" From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 09:42:46 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041021084350.0562bec0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20041021084350.0562bec0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <796532E5-236F-11D9-8483-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Here is also something interesting to run if your going to run win31. http://www.calmira.de/index.htm From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 10:06:34 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: VAX 6000 Rescue (Eastern Conn) Message-ID: I was planning to rescue the above this coming weekend. However personal circumstances will be delaying (any possibly preventing) me doing this. Anyone interested, please contact me off list..... David 631-244-8487 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 10:16:27 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Virtual PC should have come with the cdrom driver and MSCDEX As near as I can tell it came with Virtual PC 7 and WinXP Pro SP2, and that is it. I don't think my old copy of VPC3 (where I got the Win98SE from) had anything for DOS either. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 21 10:27:18 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: References: <200410181703.i9IH0Lde069336@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: In a bit of a follow-up to myself, I managed to locate one of the mark-sense cards and the template I referred to earlier. Some (crude) pictures may be view of each of theses at: John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 21 03:05:36 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron In-Reply-To: References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041021100536.0d18fac3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:47:13 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Well... The PA-8500 is a true 64-bit CPU, and the Opteron is a > kludge. What more do you need to know. How true. Maybe the SPEC benchmarks may provide some info. Try http://www.spec.org/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 21 10:49:21 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <796532E5-236F-11D9-8483-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from Ron Hudson at "Oct 21, 4 07:42:46 am" Message-ID: <200410211549.IAA13626@floodgap.com> > Here is also something interesting to run if your going to run win31. > http://www.calmira.de/index.htm Calmira is quite nice as a shell -- I use it on my Win3.1 installation on my utility 486. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Los Angeles 2001: "Ohmigosh, it's full of *cars!*" ------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 21 10:50:38 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Oct 21, 4 02:34:11 pm" Message-ID: <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> > Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going unnoticed. This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, but I need a source in bulk. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 21 10:36:25 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X Message-ID: >As near as I can tell it came with Virtual PC 7 and WinXP Pro SP2, >and that is it. > >I don't think my old copy of VPC3 (where I got the Win98SE from) had >anything for DOS either. Those two links should get you going. I've found the Oak CDROM driver works with most IDE cd drives. I don't think it will work with SCSI drives, so if your Mac CD drive is SCSI, it may fail to see it. -chris From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 10:52:44 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> In a bit of a follow-up to myself, I managed to locate one >>> of the mark-sense cards and the template I referred to >>> earlier. Some >>> (crude) pictures may be view of each of theses at: >>> >>> >>> I havent seen those wince the mid 1970's!!!!! Back when I forst worked on the PDP-8, the school district was using it for automatic grading of multiple choice exams [among other things]. The system had a flat scanner that would process a page that had been marked with a #2 pencil. I forget the dimensions and other details (it has been nearly 30 years), but I seem to remember that the sheet was 8.5x11. Was this a "standard" type of peripheral???? From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 21 10:51:39 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items Message-ID: >This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel >desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, >but I need a source in bulk. ULine sells them. Although I seem to recall when I looked into them they weren't super cheap. But that might have been because they make you buy them by the case (per packet cost is probably dirt cheap, they just make you buy 2000 packets at a time or something like that). Its been a while since I looked at them. -chris From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 21 10:56:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16759.56376.722568.4502@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going >> unnoticed. Cameron> This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for Cameron> those silica gel desiccators? Those might be a little Cameron> insurance and they seem inexpensive, but I need a source in Cameron> bulk. You mean a large quantity of little silicagel packages, or a large quantity in one bulk package? Try Google... I found one company I recognize: Cole-Parmer, 5 kg silicagel, $109. paul From jwest at huey.classiccmp.org Thu Oct 21 11:26:26 2004 From: jwest at huey.classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:07 2005 Subject: PDP customer on Cleveland, OH needs urgent help Message-ID: <200410211626.i9LGQQ8p013617@huey.classiccmp.org> Just got a call from a PDP-11/05 customer in Cleveland OH. They are in a crisis situation due to a dead 11/05. They suspect memory problems but there may be power supply issues as well. If there is anyone local to them with 11/05 parts and or expertise, can you please call me right away? Best number to reach me right now is 314-494-7338 This company is willing to pay for help as the 11/05 being down takes their milling machine down. Jay West From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 11:22:56 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Message-ID: <20041021162254.WPSW11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 14:34 21/10/2004 +0000, you wrote: >On Thu, 2004-10-21 at 07:39 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Anything you would add? > >The comment made recently about memory drawing excess current if inputs >are left floating is interesting though. Proof that you do need to know >about the system you're testing as taking the modular approach to >powering up doesn't always work and might actually do more harm than >good. Thats true, and there are other concerns - I've seen devices which go thermo if there's no clock! - Thats why I do this only if I can't test the power supply separately, and only power it very briefly - long enough to verify the power rails. >The other thing I'd add to that is to always use a dummy form of mass >storage in place of any real media, even after you're confident that the >power supply is OK - just in case on first full boot the system decides >to stomp all over the media. Good point - I always disconnect drives etc. at first power-up, but one area where I've seen people have trouble is in floppy disks - DON'T USE THE MASTER DISKETTE ON FIRST ATTEMPT TO BOOT! I always try to find ways to backup the disks and boot from a copy if at all possible. I just got a Kaypro in where the guy had tried to boot it after it had sat for a number of years, got a loud shrieking noise after which the boot disk was missing a band of oxide - Fortunately, he had the sense not to try another disk. Regards, Dave-- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 21 11:37:26 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041021123602.031f7220@192.168.0.1> At 11:50 AM 10/21/2004, you wrote: >This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel >desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, >but I need a source in bulk. I get mine from the gun nuts tool shop: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6944 Ed K. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 11:51:33 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 In-Reply-To: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20041021113956.VSMJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4177E915.2040905@sbcglobal.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Back up ROMs if possible before attempting any power up too. Oh, and > before doing anything let the system aclimatise* if it's been moved. > Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going unnoticed. > > *or is it acclimatise? Or acclimatize for you across-the-ponders... Actually, I think it's supposed to be "acclimate" -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Oct 21 01:23:57 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <20041021013027.HAHY11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041021013027.HAHY11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20041021062357.GB2999@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Oct 20, 2004 at 09:30:28PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I have to admit - I do not have a burning desire to connect to anything > at 300 bps --- But I do have a burning desire to see it work. Understandable. If you really need a serial port, there are faster items out there... but AFAIK, at the moment, that's the fastest you have... > These are a questions that seems to have different answers from different > collectors: > - To use or not to use > - To fix or not to fix > - To power-up or not to power-up I'm in the use, fix-as-necessary, and don't worry about powering up equipment I expect to be good (reforming ancient caps is a different problem). If I can't fix it, I probably shouldn't own it. > Whats the point of storing all this stuff unless people can actually > experience it - otherwise, why not just keep a pile of pictures. Very much agreed... might as well only do emulation. > In this case, I think it would be "cool" to be able to demonstrate a PET > connected through the 8010 IEEE modem to my Hayes S-100 modem (also a 103 type) > in an Altair running a BBS system - This would show how it really worked! > - but I don't expect anyone to actually want to use such a setup for any > other purpose. Sure. I even have a couple of devices that are handy for that - Telephone C.O. simulators... I have one that I used to make and sell - the ComBox(R) (really... (R)... no :-) It's more than 10 years old, so it's even on-topic even when not used to hook up classic gear. It's an i8049-based box with two RJ11s, lights and buttons. By dialling different numbers, you can simulate a regular call, PBX-outgoing, half- connections, missing ring, etc. It was really handy when I was writing autodialer software for our VAXBI HASP product (V.24?) You would literally take an analog phone, plug it in, then cradle the handset in your acoustic couple - plug a hardware or acoustic coupler in the 'B' port, and feed the calling end a couple of digits to dial, and *bringggg* - a connection. I also have a 4-line model we picked up during product research to see what features were being pushed by the competition. I could literally have my own private phone network at home for classic machines that are strictly modem based. > Curious to know what others do with the vintage equipment you have stashed > away in basement/garage etc. Mostly I play. Like you, I rotate through stuff, whatever is currently interesting to me. Before I left home to come down here for a year, I spent a bunch of time working on my PDP-8/e - all hardware diagnosis and repair (if I just wanted to run OS/8 programs, I'd either use simh or fire up my SBC6120, which I do often). At the moment, the -8/e now has a stable PSU (the breaker wouldn't stay latched - a mechanical, not electrical fault - it got smacked *hard* before I got it), and I was diagnosing some CPU fault that was so deep that the front panel didn't do a whole lot, no matter what you frobbed. I was about to pull out the board extenders, O-scope, and ancient HP logic analyzer when it was time to start packing. Over the last year, I have been shopping for parts; just this week I picked up an M8330 to replace my M833 (newer ECOed version of same board) for $9.99! (opening bid, no competition) I'm glad I did - I got scooped recently on a complete KK8E w/EAE. The ultimate reason for fiddling with all of this is to eventually fire up an RK8E I got several years ago in a swap, and use _that_ to eventually read an RK05F-16 pack I got in 1984. I have *no* idea what may be on it, and I'll love it when I can finally read it out. The other thing I do with vintage equipment is show-and-tell. Mostly at home with friends, but I have hauled an -8/L, w/rack, w/ASR-33 to a local convention for a computer exhibit (along with lots of C= equipment) Unfortunately, some bastard, most likely a hotel employee (or someone with a lockpick, since it was after hours from a padlocked room) walked off with my Dell P-133 laptop with about two weeks of recent Open Source work on it. The show was a success - losing two wireless cards and a fully tricked out Linux laptop was a real bite. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Oct-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.2 F (-56.3 C) Windchill -91.8 F (-68.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.3 kts Grid 100 Barometer 675.7 mb (10788. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jim at smithy.com Thu Oct 21 12:12:14 2004 From: jim at smithy.com (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: 5 1/4" hard-sectored disk.. Message-ID: <1098378734.1924.50.camel@localhost> I have some 5 1/4" hard-sectored disks that contain CPU microcode. They aren't 'formatted' with a filesystem, but are read with a simple board that contains some 9602's, a shift register, and a Z80. A dilemma: should I try to intercept the data from the board, write it to flash memory, and build a board to replace the whole Z80/hard-sectored disk thing, *or* try to build something to write the data stream out to another 5 1/4" disk. The Z80 doesn't care about the sector pulses - only the index pulse. So I could get away with a standard floppy instead of a hard-sectored one. The disk thing would allow me to keep using the original hardware, which would be nice, but I don't know the first thing about attempting to write the data stream back to the disk. I have no backups of the microcode disk, and no way to replace it when it dies. Every time I fire the thing up I feel I'm getting a little closer to it's death... Jim From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 12:58:26 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021125016.050c41e0@pc> At 10:51 AM 10/21/2004, chris wrote: >ULine sells them. Although I seem to recall when I looked into them they >weren't super cheap. But that might have been because they make you buy >them by the case (per packet cost is probably dirt cheap, they just make >you buy 2000 packets at a time or something like that). Its been a while >since I looked at them. If it's just silica gel you're looking for, it's cheap by the pound in the craft section : people use it for drying flowers. Make your own. If you're just looking for a few handfuls, just walk through the cheap shoe section at your local discount mart (Shopko, K-Mart, Target, etc.) They put packets in shoeboxes these days, and there will be many scattered on the floor. Bribe an employee and I bet they'd collect them for you. Either way, if you get the color-changing kind then you'll know if they're saturated or not. Otherwise, put it all in a low-temp oven for a while to really dry it out. Not that I've solved all my own dehumidifying problems. My main storage area, my office basement, has old rock foundation walls. They can be a bit too moist in wet seasons. The air gets moist enough to let mildew grow on items like leather if it is in an enclosed space, but not so bad that it would do that if it were out in the open. I have a fridge-based dehumidifier, but it's not too smart in terms of not running when the basement air is too cold to melt its frost. It happily fills its condenser coils with frost and adds dollars to my electric bill as it runs unnecessarily. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 21 13:52:58 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <16759.56376.722568.4502@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from Paul Koning at "Oct 21, 4 11:56:40 am" Message-ID: <200410211852.LAA10980@floodgap.com> > You mean a large quantity of little silicagel packages, or a large > quantity in one bulk package? I mean the little packages. I think I'd go nuts trying to make my own :) Someone suggested Brownells' gel packs, which is a thought, but I was specifically interested in the little white bags/plastic canisters that I can just toss in a box. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 21 13:58:33 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: from chris at "Oct 21, 4 11:51:39 am" Message-ID: <200410211858.LAA11360@floodgap.com> > >This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel > >desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, > >but I need a source in bulk. > > ULine sells them. Although I seem to recall when I looked into them they > weren't super cheap. But that might have been because they make you buy > them by the case (per packet cost is probably dirt cheap, they just make > you buy 2000 packets at a time or something like that). Its been a while > since I looked at them. http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_1004.asp Is that what you mean? The 2.75"x3" ones seem kind of large, but may do well one to a box for boxed home computers and the like. You get 600 for $83, which seems a pretty good unit price (that's like 13 cents each), or the classic 0.875"x1.5" comes 5000 for $127 which is around 2 and a half cents each. Unless someone has a better deal, I might go with them. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 13:46:49 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <200410211852.LAA10980@floodgap.com> References: <16759.56376.722568.4502@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200410211852.LAA10980@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021134500.052af020@pc> At 01:52 PM 10/21/2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Someone suggested Brownells' gel packs, which is a thought, but I was >specifically interested in the little white bags/plastic canisters that >I can just toss in a box. But I must wonder if this will serve our purposes. One little pack only absorbs only a small amount of water - then it stops. I think these things are meant for closed boxes going from factory to shipping container to warehouse to store, and shouldn't be expected to reduce humidity by significant amounts over long durations. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 14:01:47 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Oct 21, 2004 09:46:28 AM Message-ID: <200410211901.i9LJ1lIs021333@onyx.spiritone.com> > >Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as > >mapping folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac > >printer. > > I'm sure I've mapped DOS in VPC to both shared folders and printers. > Although this would have been with much older versions of VPC (v1, 2 or > 3). I do know for sure that I have run WIn95 with both. > > But who knows, this is now MS VPC, so I'm sure they made any features > that might be useful work exclusively with whatever version of Windows > they want to make you use. I believe you have to have the VPC extensions for the OS, and that MS-DOS isn't a supported OS under VPC7. I bypass this by having a virtual D: Drive for DOS and Win98, and booting the Win98 system when I need to copy files from the Mac to DOS. I could do it under WinXP, but that would interrupt what I have running there, and it takes a lot longer for XP to boot (or shutdown). Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 21 14:31:31 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021134500.052af020@pc> from John Foust at "Oct 21, 4 01:46:49 pm" Message-ID: <200410211931.MAA13402@floodgap.com> > > Someone suggested Brownells' gel packs, which is a thought, but I was > > specifically interested in the little white bags/plastic canisters that > > I can just toss in a box. > > But I must wonder if this will serve our purposes. One little > pack only absorbs only a small amount of water - then it stops. I was thinking a larger quantity, though ^_^ > I think these things are meant for closed boxes going from > factory to shipping container to warehouse to store, and > shouldn't be expected to reduce humidity by significant > amounts over long durations. This does make me lean more towards the Brownells' devices, which are "rechargeable" (but somewhat expensive given the number of equipment boxes I've got). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Do not innovate unnecessarily. -- "The Tick" ------------------------------- From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 21 14:22:58 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X Message-ID: >I believe you have to have the VPC extensions for the OS, and that MS-DOS >isn't a supported OS under VPC7. I bypass this by having a virtual D: Drive >for DOS and Win98, and booting the Win98 system when I need to copy files >from the Mac to DOS. I could do it under WinXP, but that would interrupt >what I have running there, and it takes a lot longer for XP to boot (or >shutdown). Yes, I do believe VPC came with drivers to do it under DOS. Gee, and Connectix swore that MS was not going to bastardize VPC. The first official MS release and suddenly they don't support old MS operating systems. What else do they conviently not support? I am curious if the old VPC drivers would work with the new version. Maybe all they did was stop releasing the driver set. Do you have an older version of VPC? I have the 2.0 CD here and it comes with a VPC drive file that contains DOS drivers for folder sharing, CD access, and S3 video drivers for Win3.1. Alas, the file is 20 MB so a little big to email to you (I could stick it on an FTP site if you want). I have NO idea if these drivers would work with VPC 7 or not. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 21 14:27:47 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items Message-ID: >http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_1004.asp > >Is that what you mean? Yup, that's them. And that's about the prices I remember seeing. Not a bad price if you need a large quantity, but I found them a little pricey because I only wanted about 50 at the time. -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 14:37:51 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20041021084350.0562bec0@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Oct 21, 2004 08:52:03 AM Message-ID: <200410211937.i9LJbqWa022207@onyx.spiritone.com> > What model S3 card is it? I may have some old driver discs about here for S3.. Found that, in fact I think the archive I got contains drivers for a lot of other OS's as well. The card emulated is the "S3 Trio32/64" with either 4MB, 8MB, or 12MB (or is it 16MB?). > Network is easy enough; grab the TCP/IP extensions for Win3.11 (they used > to be on Microsoft's website, but I don't know if they still are. I ought > to have a copy of them too, somewhere..) and you can use these outside of > Windows too, once set up. This will also allow you to map network drives, > access printers, etc, (assuming you have SMB compatible shares somewhere). I went digging first thing this morning, and found my copy of WFW3.11, as a result I've go that installed now, along with the S3 driver and DEC 21041 NIC driver. I'll go hunting for TCP/IP drivers tonight if I have time. I have a box of PC/TCP that was sealed when I got it :^) and I've never used it. I'll have to take a look at it, not sure what OS it supports. Though I really should spend the time trying to get Win95 as it looks like that is the OS I need to be running for some DEC software I have. DOS itself is most interesting for some of my old games :^) Though so far I've not had any luck getting Warlords 2, the only one I've tried, running. Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 21 14:40:04 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021134500.052af020@pc> <200410211931.MAA13402@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16760.4244.507330.112139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> I think these things are meant for closed boxes going from factory >> to shipping container to warehouse to store, and shouldn't be >> expected to reduce humidity by significant amounts over long >> durations. Cameron> This does make me lean more towards the Brownells' devices, Cameron> which are "rechargeable" (but somewhat expensive given the Cameron> number of equipment boxes I've got). All silica gel is "rechargeable" -- bake it at low temperature to expel the absorbed water. The only thing to watch out for is that you don't overheat it; I think that will wreck its ability to absorb water. The Brownell's metal containers are much sturdier and won't fall apart if you keep doing this for years, but in principle the same would work with the little paper bags. paul From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 14:40:51 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: OK, all you beige-box people in S. Calif (USA) Message-ID: Sorry for the tease, it's not really that interesting. At UC (Univ. Calif.) Irvine surplus is a smallish pile of PC and Apple goodies. This inventory is from my faulty memory, don't blame me... I just got a working HP 6MP printer for $20, disturbingly, half the cost of repairing my LaserJet 4 (the ordinary rear rollers crumpling sheets problem). Parallel and appletalk interfaces. A few more, 5mp and 6mp left. One with a stuck switch but seemed to work. Got a P120 for $15, works, HDD, flop, CDR, few megs RAM, and the XVGA PCI card I need to repair another machine. A bunch (dozen) of Apple LaserWriters, 16/600? Bunch of iMac type monitors, 17"? 19"? Apple. A few P120, 486 machines, hard disks, two flavors floppy, CDRs. Eh. Some Syquest drives, ext cabs with SCSI, about 4? 6? 8? Some bunch of other removable high-capacity media, JAZ or whatever, I don't look at beige objects generally. It's all "sanitary landfill" (sic) to me. Assante? Ethernet cards, nuBUS? One with manual, a small thing with little ables and aadapters, one was bigger. I barely looked. Prices are CHEEP. Much of the stuff works, it was dumped by some department upgrading. Open Tuesdays and Thursdays, only, 10am - 1pm, and 2pm - 5pm. Cash. Open to the public. Mostly junky furniture, very little tech. Behind UCI North Campus complex (little cluster of low buildings), on Jamboree, about 100 ft west of Campus Drive, Irvine. Arrive from route 73, exit Jamboree or Campus. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Oct 21 14:45:34 2004 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23@zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041021214527.029259c0@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to make some sort of adapter. Had a look at some schematics and they looked the same to me, data lines on the same pins etc. Any help is welcome. Ow the reason I want to know this is that I want to read some old roms in my EPROM reader. Cheers, Stefan. From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 14:53:23 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20041021184439.014c6af0@pop-server> References: <3.0.3.32.20041021184439.014c6af0@pop-server> Message-ID: > I find it strange that there is no option to change the HDD type or > parameters. I've seen other laptops (mainly toshibas) that lacked HDD > options in their setup utils, but they detected the HDD on bootup, no > settings where needed. For what it's worth, here's how I solved this problem. I have an older ASUS motherboard that doesn't support the 120GB drive I bought, even with the latest BIOS flashed in. I actually found two tricks, that may work on other machines. Note that I use only one partition, and I boot linux, no mixed-OS complexities here. One, install two hard disks, where drive0 is known to the BIOS, and drive1 is manually set to "NONE". BIOS finds drive0 OK, boots from it, and the OS is configured for two drives. The BIOS is only used a tBOOT TIME> I got all hung up on trying to get the BIOS to auto-discover geometry, and finally caught on. Two, I found that really, the BIOS only needs to know enough disk geometry to read enough sectors of the front to boot. It doesn't need to get at the higher cylinders at all -- LIE and tell it that there's fewer cylinders. The OS gets its info from the partition table. I find it hard to believe that even early PCDOS's use the BIOS calls for disk access beyond booting. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 21 14:42:47 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items" (Oct 21, 8:50) References: <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <10410212042.ZM9293@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 21 2004, 8:50, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going unnoticed. > > This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel > desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, > but I need a source in bulk. You can get silica gel in bulk from any laboratory or craft supply house that caters for chemists, biologists, microscopists, mycologists (mushroom collectors) or people who do flower arranging (and drying). It's not always as cheap as you might think, though. I get mine by asking our techs to throw each little bag that comes with a PC/monitor/harddrive into a box at the end of their bench. Ask your local PC shop to do the same? Bear in mind that it works by absorbing (pedantically, adsorbing) moisture from the atmosphere in the region you're trying to protect, and there's a limit to what it will soak up. Some of it comes with an indicator: usually cobalt chloride; pink when moist, blueish-purple when dry. You can drive off the moisture by warming it in an oven at 130C for an hour or so (the time tends to depend somewhat on the quantity and packaging). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 14:54:04 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: OK, all you beige-box people in S. Calif (USA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021145254.055a7ff8@pc> At 02:40 PM 10/21/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >At UC (Univ. Calif.) Irvine surplus is a smallish pile of PC >and Apple goodies. This inventory is from my faulty memory, >don't blame me... I don't look at beige objects generally. UCI had Teraks back in the early 80s. They're heavy metal beige boxes. The backside is black. - John From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 14:56:35 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: "Compact" tape drive? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041021071543.03214ae8@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041021071543.03214ae8@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > And for the grand prize -- name the style of this tape drive! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5132851939&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT Hmm, it's either one of those special write-only magic tape drives made hmm well not really ever, or it's the wrong photo. From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 14:58:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron In-Reply-To: <4177C019.23145.5D90C43@localhost> References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4177C019.23145.5D90C43@localhost> Message-ID: > > >Sorry for the off-topicness... I googled to find a comparison > > >between these two chips with regards to relative performance and > > >can't find anything. Can anyone point to a spot that has some > > >definitive comparisons between the two? My *general* rule is, if it's that close, it doesn't matter. Seriously. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 21 15:03:08 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: VUPS measuring utility Message-ID: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> I seem to remeber there being a VUPS-measuring DCL script which I was able to find a few years ago, which was probably mentioned on this list. Does anyone have a copy they could send me, or point me to where I could find it? My attempts at using google and looking through past email have been fruitless so far. Thanks much, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 15:02:59 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Oct 21, 2004 03:22:58 PM Message-ID: <200410212003.i9LK30rK022864@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yes, I do believe VPC came with drivers to do it under DOS. > > Gee, and Connectix swore that MS was not going to bastardize VPC. The > first official MS release and suddenly they don't support old MS > operating systems. I know :^( I think they only support old MS OS's that are still under active support. > What else do they conviently not support? Well, from what I've been able to find out, at least with VPC6 QNX would work. I can't get it to work with the emulated S3 card. What really got me was that the Knoppix Linux CD I have wouldn't work either. I really need to find a version of Linux that it likes, as I have a couple Linux only apps I want to run. I've yet to try OS/2 3.0 or OPENSTEP 4.2, both of which I think should work. In case anyone is wondering, yes, I'm trying to get all the old OS's I've run over the years running under VPC :^) Of course who knows if I can find all the software I want to get up and running, or how many dead floppies I have. > I am curious if the old VPC drivers would work with the new version. > Maybe all they did was stop releasing the driver set. Do you have an > older version of VPC? I have the 2.0 CD here and it comes with a VPC > drive file that contains DOS drivers for folder sharing, CD access, and > S3 video drivers for Win3.1. Alas, the file is 20 MB so a little big to > email to you (I could stick it on an FTP site if you want). I have NO > idea if these drivers would work with VPC 7 or not. I'll have to dig out my VPC3 and VPC4 CD's, but based on the upgrade from V3 to V4 I'm pretty sure the software is specific the version of VPC you're running. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 21 15:01:50 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: Devon "RE: access to BIOS of DECpc" (Oct 21, 10:10) References: <3.0.6.32.20041021101028.0120b620@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <10410212101.ZM9385@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 21 2004, 10:10, Devon wrote: > I've used a copy of Ontrack Disk Manager (~version 4?) from Seagate and it > works with any brand drive. [ ... ] > > --------Original Message--------- > Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:52:29 +0200 > From: Gooijen H > Subject: RE: access to BIOS of DECpc > > The disk manager was a good idea, I have one old 486 PC with a big > Western Digital drive, too big to be supported by the BIOS, and the > EZ-DRIVE disk manager works perfectly here. > However, EZ-DRIVE only accepts to work with Western Digital drives, > and the 2.5" hard disk that I have is from HP. The disk manager > also wants certain settings for the hard disk in the BIOS ... I've mailed Henk a copy of Ontrack Disk Manager. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 21 15:03:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going unnoticed. > > This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for those silica gel > desiccators? Those might be a little insurance and they seem inexpensive, > but I need a source in bulk. Yeah, ditto. There's an outdoor supply place in my town that might sell that sort of stuff but other than that I wouldn't know where to look for it in bulk. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 21 15:07:06 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021155808.03a0d2b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that chris may have mentioned these words: >Gee, and Connectix swore that MS was not going to bastardize VPC. The >first official MS release and suddenly they don't support old MS >operating systems. What else do they conviently not support? I'm not sure about VPC7, but M$VPC 2004 (Winders) supports: MS-DOS Win95/98/ME/ NT workstation / 2K / XP OS/2 NT Server / 2K Server / 2K3 Server ... and the ubiquitous ... "Other" Which I've used to run both RedHat 9 and LinuxFromScratch, and I can tell you that despite Linux not being "supported" it runs better than Win98 under it! Oh Shit! Now I'm gonna get flamed to holy Hades because this is offtopic!!! Ahhhhhh!!! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch@30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 15:08:05 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >>> In a bit of a follow-up to myself, I managed to locate one > >>> of the mark-sense cards and the template I referred to > >>> earlier. Some > >>> (crude) pictures may be view of each of theses at: > >>> > >>> > >>> > > I havent seen those wince the mid 1970's!!!!! Umm, UC Irvine still uses them for class registrations! Imagine my surprise when I found an IBM-format card on the sidewalk here... When I exclaimed the hilarity of them, pretty much everyone was underwhelmed, 'oh those are just class registration cards, whassup?' of course having no idea how old the system is.... (I have CASES of surplus, unused LANL/LASL cards I use for notes, bookmarks, mixing epoxy... about $1 per thousand, new, 1960's NOS... the catch is you gotta drive to Los Alamos NM to get 'em) From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Oct 21 15:08:38 2004 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (brian wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: VUPS measuring utility In-Reply-To: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1098389318.572.2.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> The one at http://www.astro.multivax.de:8000/phillip/vup.com Looks like the one I've used before. Brian On Thu, 2004-10-21 at 15:03, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I seem to remeber there being a VUPS-measuring DCL script which I was > able to find a few years ago, which was probably mentioned on this list. > Does anyone have a copy they could send me, or point me to where I could > find it? > > My attempts at using google and looking through past email have been > fruitless so far. > > Thanks much, > > Pat From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 15:09:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 In-Reply-To: <20041021162254.WPSW11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041021162254.WPSW11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Good point - I always disconnect drives etc. at first power-up, but one > area where I've seen people have trouble is in floppy disks - DON'T USE > THE MASTER DISKETTE ON FIRST ATTEMPT TO BOOT! I always try to find ways > to backup the disks and boot from a copy if at all possible. Boot from a junk or blank diskette -- getting recal, head load, right blinking lights etc let's you trust the thing a little more. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 21 15:15:04 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: VUPS measuring utility In-Reply-To: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <018d01c4b7aa$a781c700$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I seem to remeber there being a VUPS-measuring DCL script which I was There was a script (produced by some 3rd party, I forget exactly which party) that *claimed* to measure something that approximated to VUPs. > My attempts at using google and looking through past email have been > fruitless so far. You could try dejanews, specifically in comp.os.vms - it's bound to have floated through there at some stage. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 15:16:22 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <200410211931.MAA13402@floodgap.com> References: <200410211931.MAA13402@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > > Someone suggested Brownells' gel packs, which is a thought, but I was > > > specifically interested in the little white bags/plastic canisters that > > > I can just toss in a box. > > > > But I must wonder if this will serve our purposes. One little > > pack only absorbs only a small amount of water - then it stops. > > I was thinking a larger quantity, though ^_^ > > > I think these things are meant for closed boxes going from > > factory to shipping container to warehouse to store, and > > shouldn't be expected to reduce humidity by significant > > amounts over long durations. > > This does make me lean more towards the Brownells' devices, which are > "rechargeable" (but somewhat expensive given the number of equipment boxes > I've got). They aren't replacements for dehumidifiers, you'll be disappointed. They are only meant for use in closed, relatively-low-humidity environments, like sealed packing boxes that were packed in a decent environment in the first place. If exposed to the atmosphere, where moisture is essentially limitless, they'll go inert shortly. From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 21 15:16:52 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: VUPS measuring utility In-Reply-To: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: $! Newsgroups: comp.os.vms $! Path: news.rrz.uni-hamburg.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com !howland.erols.net!EU.net!main.Germany.EU.net!Dortmund.Germany.EU.net!ns.knirsch .de!weller!ifwb!vax3.wupper.de!aw $! From: aw@vax3.wupper.de (Andreas W Wylach) $! Subject: Re: What dp VUPs really measure ? $! Sender: news@ifwb.wupper.de (Net News Admin) $! Message-ID: $! Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:20:38 GMT $! Lines: 86 $! Reply-To: aw@vax3.wupper.de $! References: <55vfv1$fje@news.NetVision.net.il> <56006q$pt5$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.co m> <5618vk$pl0@paperboy.ids.net> $! Organization: CDrei - Wuppertal - Germany $! $! $! In article <5618vk$pl0@paperboy.ids.net>, mike@kronos.egr-ri.ids.net (Mike Um bricht) writes: $! |>In article <56006q$pt5$1@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, lionel@quark.zko.dec.com (Stev e Lionel) writes: $! |>> $! |>>In article <55vfv1$fje@news.NetVision.net.il>, Uri Raz $! |>> writes: $! |>>|> $! |>>|> After reading some articles trying to compare SPEC measures to VUP $! |>>|> measures, I've started wondering what VUPs really measure. $! |>> $! |>>VUPs are similar in concept to the SPEC suite in that there is a specific $! |>>collection of benchmark programs that are run and a performance range is $! |> $! |>Where can I get the code for the VUP benchmark programs? Do you have a $! |>reference that details how VUPs are defined? $! |> $! |>>The VUP rating is mostly of historical interest now. $! |> $! |>I am with a group called the Retro-Computing Society of RI - a user group f or $! |>individuals that collect older computer systems. I am interested in runnin g $! |>the benchmark on our 750. (Yes, I know what the answer is, but I'd like to see $! |>how it is calculated.) $! |> $! |>-mike $! |> $! $! Here we go, the dcl code for VUPS : $! $! CALCULATE_VUPS: $! $ set noon $ orig_privs = f$setprv("ALTPRI") $ process_priority = f$getjpi(0,"PRIB") $ cpu_multiplier = 10 ! VAX = 10 - Alpha/AXP = 40 $ cpu_round_add = 1 ! VAX = 1 - Alpha/AXP = 9 $ cpu_round_divide = cpu_round_add + 1 $ init_counter = cpu_multiplier * 525 $ init_loop_maximum = 205 $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 10$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. init_loop_maximum then goto 10$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ init_vups = ((init_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ loop_maximum = (init_vups * init_loop_maximum) / 10 $ base_counter = (init_counter * init_vups) / 10 $ vups = 0 $ times_through_loop = 0 $ 20$: $ start_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ loop_index = 0 $ 30$: $ loop_index = loop_index + 1 $ if loop_index .ne. loop_maximum then goto 30$ $ end_cputime = f$getjpi(0,"CPUTIM") $ new_vups = ((base_counter / (end_cputime - start_cputime) + - cpu_round_add) / cpu_round_divide) * cpu_round_divide $ if new_vups .eq. vups then goto 40$ $ vups = new_vups $ times_through_loop = times_through_loop + 1 $ if times_through_loop .le. 5 then goto 20$ $ 40$: $ new_privs = f$setprv(orig_privs) $ set message /nofacility/noidentification/noseverity/notext $ ASSIGN/SYSTEM/EXEC 'vups' MACHINE_VUPS_RATING $ set message /facility/identification/severity/text $ write sys$output "Approximate System VUPs Rating : ", - vups / 10,".", vups - ((vups / 10) * 10) $ exit $! $! Have fun. $! $! see ya, $! Andreasw $! -- $! IfwBOnline Wuppertal, Maerkische Str. 28, D-42281 Wuppertal, F.R.Germa ny $! Andreas W. Wylach, | AW@IFWB.WUPPER.DE $! AW@VAX1.wupper.de | AW@VAX3.wupper.de | Local DECNet: VAX3::AW $! Information system from students for students, WupperNet $! @CDrei Wuppertal (FRG) /Miami (USA) - Competence, Consulting, Connectivity $! -- $! This is comp.os.vms, not alt.read.my.mind (Carl J. Lydick) $! -- $! This is WBIG New York, listen yo', there are a lot of dogs out there. (NOT. B IG) -- John A. Dundas III Director, Information Technology Services Infrastructure, Caltech Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA 91125-8100 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 15:26:55 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: OK, all you beige-box people in S. Calif (USA) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021145254.055a7ff8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021145254.055a7ff8@pc> Message-ID: > At 02:40 PM 10/21/2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I don't look at beige objects generally. On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > UCI had Teraks back in the early 80s. They're heavy > metal beige boxes. The backside is black. Oh that vintage I at least notice :-) Things with 8" flops I'd take sight-unseen, depending on poundage, or I'd take photos, set aside, contact this list, etc etc... It's hardware for PCDOS up, and everything > Apple ][ that's doorstop material for me, with rare exceptions. From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 15:32:41 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: VUPS measuring utility In-Reply-To: References: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, John A. Dundas III wrote: > Subject: Re: VUPS measuring utility For pointless hilarity, how about someone with pentium-class assembly knowledge coding up the Gill Test? "The Gill Test A measure of the arithmetic speed of an automatic computer. It is defined as the time in milliseconds required for a computer to: A + B = C {Store C} C + D + E = F {Store F} G x H = K {Store K} when all access is to the fastest internal storage used in the computer in question. For a one-address computer only with one constant storage access storage device {such as magnetic cores}, a gill is equal to ten times the average operation time. {Named after Stanley Gill of Cambridge University} " from http://www.users.nwark.com/~rcmahq/jclark/gill.htm From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 15:42:09 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021155808.03a0d2b0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 21, 2004 04:07:06 PM Message-ID: <200410212042.i9LKg9Iw024471@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm not sure about VPC7, but M$VPC 2004 (Winders) supports: > MS-DOS > Win95/98/ME/ > NT workstation / 2K / XP > OS/2 > NT Server / 2K Server / 2K3 Server > > ... and the ubiquitous ... > "Other" By supports, are these what it specifically *claims* to support? I'm pretty sure VPC7 doesn't actually claim to support all of these, I think there are about 5 supported OS's. Usually I go with "Other" :^) > Which I've used to run both RedHat 9 and LinuxFromScratch, and I can tell > you that despite Linux not being "supported" it runs better than Win98 > under it! Win98 was a B**** to install, but once I got the install to work (blew up the first try), it seems OK, and is definitely faster than XP Pro SP2. The frightening thing is I have one Windows app that runs faster on VPC7 under XP than a native version does on Mac OS X (but that's a seriously extreme example). > Oh Shit! Now I'm gonna get flamed to holy Hades because this is offtopic!!! > Ahhhhhh!!! But the thread is technically on-topic because I'm trying to run "classic" OS's. OK, I just called a MS OS, "Classic", excuse me while I go wash my mouth out with soap, and find someone to use a horse whip on me! Personally I think VPC is a great tool for the the Classic Computer hobbyist. It lets me run a lot of old OS's on the same box. Some of the software I've fired up the last couple days, I've not run in 10+ years. Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 21 16:01:44 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <200410212101.OAA10914@clulw009.amd.com> >From: birs23@zeelandnet.nl > >Hi, > >I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be >really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 >eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to make >some sort of adapter. Had a look at some schematics and they looked the >same to me, data lines on the same pins etc. > >Any help is welcome. > >Ow the reason I want to know this is that I want to read some old roms in >my EPROM reader. > >Cheers, > >Stefan. > > Hi I think that the 23512 is a EEPROM and the 27512 would be a normal EPROM. The biggest issue is what to do with the programming voltage and any auto type sensing. Most newer programmers have a way to set the programming voltage to 5V instead of what ever. They also usually include some way to turn off the auto sense that would otherwise bring one of the pins to a higher than normal voltage. If those two conditions are met, you should be able to read the 23512. If there are issues with the select lines being inverted between the two, I often stack two machine pin sockets. I then can cross wire what I want by either popping out an unwanted pin or breaking off the tip of one that I don't want to have connected. For these two parts, I believe that the address and data line match. Note that many programmers keep the programming voltage high, even when reading since the newer EPROMs are strobed with a TTL level input for programming. So look out for this. Even if you don't tell it to program, it can have an unexpected high voltage on one of the pins. Dwight Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 21 16:13:29 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: 5 1/4" hard-sectored disk.. Message-ID: <200410212113.OAA10922@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jim It might be a good idea to check the clock rate of the data from the disk. If it is that standard 2 uS, per pulse, one can read it with most any hard sectored controller. ( Heathkit H89 comes to mind ) Getting the data from the disk is the first step. Most everything after that is just choice of implementation. Dwight >From: "Jim Donoghue" > >I have some 5 1/4" hard-sectored disks that contain CPU microcode. They >aren't 'formatted' with a filesystem, but are read with a simple board >that contains some 9602's, a shift register, and a Z80. A dilemma: >should I try to intercept the data from the board, write it to flash >memory, and build a board to replace the whole Z80/hard-sectored disk >thing, *or* try to build something to write the data stream out to >another 5 1/4" disk. The Z80 doesn't care about the sector pulses - only >the index pulse. So I could get away with a standard floppy instead of a >hard-sectored one. > >The disk thing would allow me to keep using the original hardware, which >would be nice, but I don't know the first thing about attempting to >write the data stream back to the disk. > >I have no backups of the microcode disk, and no way to replace it when >it dies. Every time I fire the thing up I feel I'm getting a little >closer to it's death... > >Jim > > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 16:07:03 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <27F2EB02-23A5-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I just got some HP calculators! Now I have some questions :^) --Anyone have a spare manual for either? --Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? (it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) --Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? what is that stuff anyway? I do have cases and power suplies. -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) -- Is is ok to run the 55 on wall power supply without a battery pack installed? Will trade the 55+case+powersupply+leakybatteries(in a ziplock bag) for complete set of docs for the 25 + 1 good application book, preferably games :^) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 21 16:59:15 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ron Hudson" > >I just got some HP calculators! > >Now I have some questions :^) > >--Anyone have a spare manual for either? > >--Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? >(it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) > >--Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? >what is that stuff anyway? Most likely potasium hydroxide or similar base. You need to first wash with water, then 50% mix of white distilled vinegar followed by a rinse and dry. > >I do have cases and power suplies. > >-- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with > nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. > >-- Is is ok to run the 55 on wall power supply without a battery > pack installed? Don't know. You should be able to find NiCads to replace. Check out JameCo. Also, we have a place called Batteries Plus that will weld together NiCad stacks. Dwight > > >Will trade the 55+case+powersupply+leakybatteries(in a ziplock bag) >for complete set of docs for the 25 + 1 good application book, >preferably games :^) > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 17:16:10 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64041021151671bc7d08@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:58:43 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have any experience running MS-DOS 6.22 on VPC? I've > managed to get Win3.1 running in SVGA mode at 600x800, and I've got > some of my old DOS software copied over. > > What I really want to know how to do is access the CD-ROM, Ethernet > Card, and if possible get video drivers for the S3 card that VPC > emulates. Oh, and I need a mouse driver for the PS/2 Mouse so I can > run a couple games :^) > > In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: > AROS > BeOS 4.5 > BeOS Max > MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 > Windows 98SE > Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) > > Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as > mapping folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac > printer. > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > After reading these posts I feel I have to point out windows has to be the easiest way to have vms and cp/m running on the same desktop (no flames). cp/m-86 runs great under vpc on windows. Also the most important thing I can play leisure suit larry and both police and space quest as well which I could barely do under 98.. I assume these would still work using a mac. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 17:16:10 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64041021151671bc7d08@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:58:43 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have any experience running MS-DOS 6.22 on VPC? I've > managed to get Win3.1 running in SVGA mode at 600x800, and I've got > some of my old DOS software copied over. > > What I really want to know how to do is access the CD-ROM, Ethernet > Card, and if possible get video drivers for the S3 card that VPC > emulates. Oh, and I need a mouse driver for the PS/2 Mouse so I can > run a couple games :^) > > In case anyone cares, so far I've gotten the following working: > AROS > BeOS 4.5 > BeOS Max > MS-DOS 6.22/Win 3.1 > Windows 98SE > Windows XP Pro SP2 (it came with this, so it had better work) > > Obviously only Win98 and WinXP support the cooler features such as > mapping folders on the Mac as network drives, and printing to the Mac > printer. > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > After reading these posts I feel I have to point out windows has to be the easiest way to have vms and cp/m running on the same desktop (no flames). cp/m-86 runs great under vpc on windows. Also the most important thing I can play leisure suit larry and both police and space quest as well which I could barely do under 98.. I assume these would still work using a mac. Dan From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 21 17:35:11 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: [Milsurplus] Relay Racks (fwd) Message-ID: For the general interest of folks who might be generally interested... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:25:40 EDT From: K2CBY@aol.com To: milsurplus@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Milsurplus] Relay Racks For list members in the New York City - Long Island area. There's a guy in western Suffolk County who has a large number of high quality 19-inch relay racks for sale in good condition at very reasonable prices. The only downside is they have to be picked up in person. Contact Thomas Maerz at _tmishear@aol.com_ (mailto:tmishear@aol.com) or (516) 790-8846. Miles Anderson, K2CBY 16 Round Pond Lane Sag Harbor, NY 11963 ______________________________________________________________ Milsurplus mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/milsurplus Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Milsurplus@mailman.qth.net From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 21 17:45:15 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <200410212042.i9LKg9Iw024471@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021155808.03a0d2b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021183151.04aeef30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: > > I'm not sure about VPC7, but M$VPC 2004 (Winders) supports: > > MS-DOS > > Win95/98/ME/ > > NT workstation / 2K / XP > > OS/2 > > NT Server / 2K Server / 2K3 Server > > > > ... and the ubiquitous ... > > "Other" > >By supports, are these what it specifically *claims* to support? If you mean you can select each of those through a drop-down box, yes. The install also includes a "Virtual Machines Additions" which gives MS OSs extra functionality in the emulator, and this includes MS-DOS. It even gives the emulator access to a USB floppy drive invisibly, although in a Win98SE dosbox doing a "diskcopy a: a:" didn't work correctly, prolly a timing issue. Also, as I mentioned above, this is a Winders environment, so I'm sure M$ doesn't work nearly as hard on the Mac side of the pond... > > Oh Shit! Now I'm gonna get flamed to holy Hades because this is > offtopic!!! > > Ahhhhhh!!! > >But the thread is technically on-topic because I'm trying to run "classic" >OS's. OK, I just called a MS OS, "Classic", excuse me while I go wash my >mouth out with soap, and find someone to use a horse whip on me! Sorry, I live too far away... :-/ ( ;^> ) >Personally I think VPC is a great tool for the the Classic Computer >hobbyist. It lets me run a lot of old OS's on the same box. Some of the >software I've fired up the last couple days, I've not run in 10+ years. It would also be good for running software for interfacing Classic machines with programs/machines that would not otherwise be able to run them. Some proggies for the Model 100/102/200 were like that, there were some that wouldn't run on anything faster than a 486 or newer than MS-DOS 6. If you could limit the priority of the emulator (if they're speed dependent), you'd have a chance of running those programs again... If they're just OS dependent, then you're golden -- one wouldn't need to keep older (but still uninteresting, IMHO) PeeCee hardware to do the *fun stuff* with the classics. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 21 17:48:57 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4177C019.23145.5D90C43@localhost> Message-ID: <004701c4b7c0$264ab2d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I apologize profusely... my brain was attled. The comparison I was looking for was between the Itanium and the Opteron. Sorry :\ Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 18:07:57 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <26c11a64041021151671bc7d08@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at Oct 21, 2004 11:16:10 PM Message-ID: <200410212307.i9LN7vJw028505@onyx.spiritone.com> > After reading these posts I feel I have to point out windows has to > be the easiest way to have vms and cp/m running on the same desktop > (no flames). cp/m-86 runs great under vpc on windows. Also the most > important thing I can play leisure suit larry and both police and > space quest as well which I could barely do under 98.. I assume these > would still work using a mac. I think it's also a question of how, and how much you use the OS. I just want to occasionally run some ancient PC software (the newest of which dates back to I think Windows 95), and to run a couple modern apps that don't have decent versions (or in one case isn't available) for the Mac. For that VPC is great! As it's one computer, keyboard and mouse. For the PDP-11, more and more I go with emulation. Though I finally have my PDP-11/73 setup in such a manner that it will hopefully remain usable, and not get buried :^) One scarry thing is I plan to try E11 under VPC :^) For some OS's such as TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, emulation is the only practical solution. However, for other OS's, such as OpenVMS in my case, emulation just isn't practical. My OpenVMS system runs 24x7, unlike my Mac, and provides may services. I'm guessing that any DOS games that work on the PC version of Virtual PC will work on the Mac version, which is another of the reasons I'm interested in VPC :^) Zane From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Oct 21 18:27:55 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:08 2005 Subject: Anyone driving from Boston area to VCF West? Message-ID: <4177E38B.18094.63B4E12@localhost> Hi, Is anyone from the Boston area going to be driving to the west coast for the VCF, or for any other reason, anytime in the forseeable future? I'm trying to get a TTY model 40 printer a hitchhike out here. Thanks, Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 18:29:43 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Virtual PC 7 on Mac OS X In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021183151.04aeef30@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 21, 2004 06:45:15 PM Message-ID: <200410212329.i9LNThiE029279@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > I'm not sure about VPC7, but M$VPC 2004 (Winders) supports: > > > MS-DOS > > > Win95/98/ME/ > > > NT workstation / 2K / XP > > > OS/2 > > > NT Server / 2K Server / 2K3 Server > > > > > > ... and the ubiquitous ... > > > "Other" > > > >By supports, are these what it specifically *claims* to support? > > If you mean you can select each of those through a drop-down box, yes. The > install also includes a "Virtual Machines Additions" which gives MS OSs > extra functionality in the emulator, and this includes MS-DOS. It even > gives the emulator access to a USB floppy drive invisibly, although in a > Win98SE dosbox doing a "diskcopy a: a:" didn't work correctly, prolly a > timing issue. > > Also, as I mentioned above, this is a Winders environment, so I'm sure M$ > doesn't work nearly as hard on the Mac side of the pond... Rats! You've definitely got it better than us Mac users then! Nothing happens when I try to install the "Virtual Machines Additions" on MS-DOS (I tried that last night). OTOH, I can use my old USB floppy drive without any problem, and that is how I installed MS-DOS. Zane From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Oct 21 18:37:33 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <27F2EB02-23A5-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <27F2EB02-23A5-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4178483D.1060808@gifford.co.uk> Ron Hudson wrote: > I just got some HP calculators! > > Now I have some questions :^) Many of your questions will be answered at: http://www.hpmuseum.org/ which is the on-line Museum of HP Calculators. The museum's CDs include scanned manuals for many HP calulators. There's also info on rebuilding battery packs (I've done an HP22, and will one day put the photos onto the web). -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 21 18:58:00 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter Message-ID: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> I'm sitting on a pair of half-wide rackmount storage devices silk-screened "RA 8" and "System Technology Associates" on front. Standard buttons - Write-Protect, Fault, A, B, on the front panel and an LED readout. 3 characters, I think. There's a Control Data Corp label on top of the box, but the model label on the side is STA. Model RA8-1100. Open PSU inside, and a logic board that converts the SDI I/O to talk to 2 Maxtor XT-8760-E ESDI drives. I can't find any mention of these puppies on Google. STA is apparently still operating as an HP VAR, but their site is less than useless. So, has anybody ever seen one? Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 18:43:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <27F2EB02-23A5-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> from "Ron Hudson" at Oct 21, 4 02:07:03 pm Message-ID: > > I just got some HP calculators! Exceellent! > > Now I have some questions :^) > > --Anyone have a spare manual for either? You should by the CD-ROMs from the Museum of HP Calculators (http://www,hpmuseum.org/). You should find scanned user manuals (and maybe program libraries, etc) for both machines there. If you want schematics, then I think HPCC can help out... > > --Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? > (it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) It's 3 AA NiCds in series. Nothing more. > > --Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? > what is that stuff anyway? It's some alkaline compound, you need a (chemically) weak acid to clean it up. I use a dilute solution of citric acid (this stuff is somewhat hard to get in the UK, althought it's pretty harmless. I am told that drug pushers (the illegal kind) use it to 'cut' their wares, hence the fact that anyone buying it is viewed with suspicion :-(). > > I do have cases and power suplies. > > -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with > nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) Should be OK. > > -- Is is ok to run the 55 on wall power supply without a battery > pack installed? Yes. It is safe to run the 35, 45, 55, 70, and 80 (but _not_ the 65 or 67) on that PSU without a battery pack. Don't run _any_ 2xC or 3xC (25C, 29C, 33C, 34C, 38C) or 95C on the adapter without a good battery pack installed, you are very likely to damage ICs). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 18:18:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Oct 21, 4 07:15:21 am Message-ID: > > >>> Tony Duell wrote: > >>> > > >>> > I totally diaagree with that comment. My interest in computers is > >>> > hardware related (I follow Steve Ciarcia in that 'my favourite > >>> > language is solder' :-)). > > I also have a large interest in the hardware details of the machines. > On the other hand I am a complete (though professionally trained) > Klutz when it comes to working with it. Great in theory, poor in practice > (but that is really another topic). Waht you need is practice :-). And IMHO there's no better way to learn troubleshooting than to be 'thrown in at the deep end' by somebody giving you a PDP11/45 with the printsets, but with no other information (this happeend to me about 14 years ago, it took me several months before I was happy to power her up....). Or even worse to be given a machine with no scheamtics and with no chance of getting said schematics.... You _really_ learn fast when that happens... > > >>> > And to me, therefore, a bit-serial processor made from > >>> > either simple integrated circuits or discrete transistors > >>> > (I forget which the 8/S is) is a lot more interesting > >>> > than a machine built round a microprocessor and, even worse, > >>> > semi-custom video and sound ICs. > > Here I disagree a bit. I worked for a firm that designed custom > Monolithics and hybrid products. From a repairability aspect this > Effectively makes them "bricks". The functional detailes of these > Products were however well documented and it was possible to > Learn most of the inner workings. Well, it depends on the level of documentation, sure... However, I'm the sort of person who learns by doing, not by reading (only). I like to connect my 'scope or logic analyser to verious points in the circuit and actually see what's going on. And I don't have the equipment to directly probe the silicon die. > > Items like custon-video and sound tend to be totally proprietary and > Their inner workings a mystery. On the other hand, processors tend > to be very well documented on the inner workings. These I find just I think the documenation on the PDP11/45 (this being the machine I am most familiar with) is at least an order-of-magnitude more detailed than that on any microprocessor I've seen... > (or nearly) as interesting with the only downside that I can learn > but not modify or repair. > > Regardless of the processor/OS/language/etc, I truly believe that > It is impossible to write great software without an understanding Equally, I think it's impossible to design good hardware (processors, video display suystems, etc) without some understanding of the software that is to run on them. But then it still amazes me that I know many programmers who don't own a 'scope or soldering iron (and wouldn't really know how to use them anyway), but I don't know a single hardware hacker who doesn't have a C compiler and know how to use it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 18:29:08 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 In-Reply-To: <20041021113956.VSMJ14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Oct 21, 4 07:39:57 am Message-ID: > >That said, I take some care before applying power. In fact turning it on > >is one of the last things I do. > > Me too. > > First I clean out all the dead flies, mice droppings, cobwebs and whatever > else may have accumulated - this usually involves some level of disassembly, > which is required anyway for the next step. > > Then I do a detailed visual inspection, paying special attention to > "power" components, looking for discolored capacitors, resistors etc. > I also look for corrosion in sockets/connectors, and anything else that > looks at all out of the ordinary - I spend a fair bit of time at this. At this point, I also check anything mechanical (fans, for example). At least I make sure they're not totally seized. I may also run motors off a bench supply to make sure they're OK (with the motor disconnected from the driver electronics, of course). I also do ohmmeter checks for dead shorts on power semiconductors (especially chopper transistors, horizontal output transistors), etc. And on large electrolytics. Then I chceck the safety ground (earth) connection is good and that it'll pass a reasonable current. And I put a megger between the mains input and the earth connection to check for any serious breakdown. [...] > If possible, I disconnect the power-supply and energize it separately, > measuring voltages. If it's analog, I ramp it up through a variac, I nearly always find a way to do this.... > monitoring the outputs and current draw as it comes up to operating > voltage. I put a dummy load (car bulbs, normally) on the main power rails when doing this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 18:36:44 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20041021214527.029259c0@pop.xs4all.nl> from "birs23@zeelandnet.nl" at Oct 21, 4 09:45:34 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be > really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 > eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to make I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Oct 21 19:20:20 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041022002020.GA14568@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:58:00PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm sitting on a pair of half-wide rackmount storage devices > silk-screened "RA 8" and "System Technology Associates" on front. > Standard buttons - Write-Protect, Fault, A, B, on the front panel and an > LED readout. 3 characters, I think. There's a Control Data Corp label > on top of the box, but the model label on the side is STA. Model RA8-1100. > > Open PSU inside, and a logic board that converts the SDI I/O to talk > to 2 Maxtor XT-8760-E ESDI drives. That sounds similar to a box I have at home, but with an SDI<->ESDI bridge. Mine is full-width (19"), and has the mounting space for 2 sets of drives and bridge card, but only one set is installed, (2 x 1.2GB). > So, has anybody ever seen one? Not that exact one; sorry. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 00:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.0 F (-55.6 C) Windchill -95.3 F (-70.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 140 Barometer 671.4 mb (10953. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Oct 21 19:21:28 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:58:00PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > Open PSU inside, and a logic board that converts the SDI I/O to talk > to 2 Maxtor XT-8760-E ESDI drives. Oops... I misread your message and parsed "SMD" where you wrote "ESDI". Perhaps we have the same bridge card, but in a different enclosure? Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 00:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.2 F (-55.7 C) Windchill -98.7 F (-72.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 134 Barometer 671.4 mb (10953. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 19:18:55 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <20041017234145.D006A3C63@spies.com> References: <20041017234145.D006A3C63@spies.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021191642.04da5c88@pc> At 06:41 PM 10/17/2004, Al Kossow wrote: > As I recall, the final configuration of the TSS/8 system I >used at the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee was closer to $100K by the time >we added the KL8/E's and RK05's. My first programming experience - in BASIC over a 300 baud link on a ASR-33 - was from Shorewood High School to a DEC timesharing system at the UW-Milwaukee... I was in 7th grade in '75-76. - John From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 21 19:35:25 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <43FDFD6E-23C2-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 21, 2004, at 2:59 PM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Ron Hudson" >> >> I just got some HP calculators! >> >> Now I have some questions :^) >> >> --Anyone have a spare manual for either? >> >> --Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? >> (it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) >> >> --Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? >> what is that stuff anyway? > > Most likely potasium hydroxide or similar base. You need to first > wash with water, then 50% mix of white distilled vinegar followed > by a rinse and dry. > >> >> I do have cases and power suplies. >> >> -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with >> nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) > > Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of > charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. I won't charge them in the calculator, they are regular AA cells so I can remove them and put them in a proper charger. :^) > >> >> -- Is is ok to run the 55 on wall power supply without a battery >> pack installed? > > Don't know. You should be able to find NiCads to replace. > Check out JameCo. Also, we have a place called Batteries Plus > that will weld together NiCad stacks. > Dwight > >> >> >> Will trade the 55+case+powersupply+leakybatteries(in a ziplock bag) >> for complete set of docs for the 25 + 1 good application book, >> preferably games :^) >> >> > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 21 19:40:13 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: SpinRite? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021191934.11b48918@pc> Steve Gibson shouldn't be a strange name for this list. Google tells me that SpinRite's been mentioned a few times in 2003 and 2004. I recently bought a copy of his SpinRite and I'm trying to get my head around exactly when it's useful. The manual isn't much help. Right now it's chugging away on a circa 1987 floppy that lost its shutter, rattled around in an envelope, and today has CRC errors. Not a rare disk, just something I'd like to see if it can recover. It's busy re-reading bad sectors hundreds of times to make its best guess at the data. A few days ago I tried SpinRite on a contemporary PC's hard drive that would error-out when writing to two spots on the disk. At its strongest correction level, SpinRite found the errors but the disk wasn't "repaired" in the sense that I expected: I thought it would somehow map-out the areas that had errors, and let me continue to rescue the drive's data. It didn't. Writing to the drive still failed. (I successfully read both partitions with a Knoppix CD and with R-Studio NE, but I wanted to bring the system back to life enough to let HP's WinXP create its recovery CDs.) So to keep this on-topic, when exactly can SpinRite help rescue old hard drives and floppies? And to state the obvious, SpinRite can't raise the dead. I tried it on a drive that was alive enough to be recognized by the BIOS, but if SpinRite can't make it spin or read, it can't help. - John From aek at spies.com Thu Oct 21 19:42:00 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Classic OS's Message-ID: <20041022004200.A233D3C75@spies.com> Shorewood High School to a DEC timesharing system at the UW-Milwaukee... -- That was the system... Run by Prof. Len Levine, Richard Bartlein, Sam Millosovich and several waves of student volunteers (incl me..) Len gave pretty much anyone in Milwaukee an account that asked. He was responsible for a lot of folks in the SE Wisconsin area having their first exposure to computers. The User's Manual for UWM's TSS/8 is up at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/uwMilwaukee/UWM_TSS8_UsersGuide_Jul74.pdf From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 19:44:32 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? Message-ID: <200410220044.i9M0iWt4031629@onyx.spiritone.com> What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C V1.2, is there anything else/newer? I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E binaries. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 21 19:45:31 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:58:00PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Open PSU inside, and a logic board that converts the SDI I/O to talk >>to 2 Maxtor XT-8760-E ESDI drives. > > > Oops... I misread your message and parsed "SMD" where you wrote "ESDI". > > Perhaps we have the same bridge card, but in a different enclosure? Could be. I think these might have been the cans in a full-wide shelf, too. The bridge board is about 8" x 12", and sits above the PSU, with the ESDI drives sitting sideways in the enclosure in front of that. > Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. Awww, c'mon, Ethan! Just trot out to the garage and have a look! I'm going to test the power and check them out, and then ASSume that if the drives are functional then it'll talk to a UDA50 or KDA50 without further ado. They're both clean, inside and out, but were stacked sort of willy-nilly on a cement floor when I found them. I don't know how tough those Maxtors are, or even yet whether they autopark on power-down. If they work, it'll be a major improvement - power-wise, space-wise, volume-wise, and noise-wise - over the RA60s I'm running now. :) I can probably post pics on my web page if anybody's interested. Doc From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 21 19:48:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? References: <200410220044.i9M0iWt4031629@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16760.22767.539000.480167@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C Zane> V1.2, is there anything else/newer? There's DECUS C. Zane> I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E Zane> binaries. Not right now, but I keep thinking this should be possible... paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 19:57:31 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <16760.22767.539000.480167@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Oct 21, 2004 08:48:47 PM Message-ID: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> > >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: > > Zane> What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C > Zane> V1.2, is there anything else/newer? > > There's DECUS C. > > Zane> I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E > Zane> binaries. > > Not right now, but I keep thinking this should be possible... > > paul I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the right name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. Paul, have you seen this? http://www.sics.se/~adam/uip/index.html It looks like it might be a way to get TCP/IP on RSTS/E (which is why I'm asking about C compiliers. Obviously GCC would make this easier to get running on the PDP-11. Zane From tomj at wps.com Thu Oct 21 20:22:48 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > But then it still amazes me that I know many programmers who don't own a > 'scope or soldering iron (and wouldn't really know how to use them > anyway), but I don't know a single hardware hacker who doesn't have a C > compiler and know how to use it. HITS NAIL ON HEAD From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 20:30:48 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <20041022013047.HVCE11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >>> -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with >>> nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) >> >> Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of >> charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. > >I won't charge them in the calculator, they are regular AA cells so I >can remove them and put them in a proper charger. :^) Here's a question for battery guru's ... I have a gadget I built for preventing "memory effect" in various nicad powered devices - mainly ones like my Digicams which only discharge the battery 1/2 way (or less) before complaining that the battery is low. It is basically two springy metal bars which lets me put up to 10 AA or C cells in parallel to discharge (I've got portable @M and 70CM rigs powered by a C cell pack), an Ammeter, a low resistance, and a stud rectifier diode. Basically, it draws about an amp from the cell when they are near fully changed, and trickles down to nothing as they approach .7ish volts, and never lets them go to zero. I works REALLY well with nicads - I've got cells that I've been using in my radios for many years and they still work very well (Prior to using this, they would noticably lose capacity after a while)... But: It doesn't seem to be quite as effective with NMIH cells ... they still seem to be losing capacity ... Any explaination, comments etc.? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Oct 21 20:42:33 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> >>> > But then it still amazes me that I know many programmers >>> who don't own >>> > a 'scope or soldering iron (and wouldn't really know how >>> to use them >>> > anyway), but I don't know a single hardware hacker who >>> doesn't have a >>> > C compiler and know how to use it. >>> >>> HITS NAIL ON HEAD 1) I know many hardware hackers who don't know a compiler from a debugger [Thinking of some of my Ham buddies].... 2) I tend to hit finger with hammer and from nail. Other than that I agree... From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 20:54:39 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <20041022015436.IGRO11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> I have to admit - I do not have a burning desire to connect to anything >> at 300 bps --- But I do have a burning desire to see it work. > >Understandable. If you really need a serial port, there are faster items >out there... but AFAIK, at the moment, that's the fastest you have... I don't *need* a serial port (I have a real one on my SuperPET) ... My point is that I don't like to just put stuff on the shelf ... I like to get it working. >> In this case, I think it would be "cool" to be able to demonstrate a PET >> connected through the 8010 IEEE modem to my Hayes S-100 modem (also a 103 type) >> in an Altair running a BBS system - This would show how it really worked! >> - but I don't expect anyone to actually want to use such a setup for any >> other purpose. > >Sure. I even have a couple of devices that are handy for that - Telephone >C.O. simulators... Thats no a problem for me - One of my main lines of "day" work these days is the development of a small office PBX (www.talkswitch.com) which is very small and easily portable (good for demos), and provides full switching etc. I also do dial-up point-of-sale banking terminals, so I have lots of equipment to simulate and monitor various phone line condition - not that it's really needed to "make a call" to a demo BBS. >The other thing I do with vintage equipment is show-and-tell. Mostly at >home with friends, but I have hauled an -8/L, w/rack, w/ASR-33 to a >local convention for a computer exhibit (along with lots of C= equipment) >Unfortunately, some bastard, most likely a hotel employee (or someone >with a lockpick, since it was after hours from a padlocked room) walked off >with my Dell P-133 laptop with about two weeks of recent Open Source >work on it. The show was a success - losing two wireless cards and a >fully tricked out Linux laptop was a real bite. That really bites. Agree completely on "show and tell" - I also find it's a great ice-breaker, I don't know how many people have come to the office for meetings of one sort or another and almost immediately start talking about seeing something on my site which was their first computer. Often said meeting is followed by a trip to the basement to play with the toys. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 21 20:54:42 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) Message-ID: <20041022015441.IGTE11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >But then it still amazes me that I know many programmers who don't own a >'scope or soldering iron (and wouldn't really know how to use them >anyway), but I don't know a single hardware hacker who doesn't have a C >compiler and know how to use it. The best hardware guy I know (by a lot) barely does any software - doesn't know (or have) C, but has been known to do a quick-and-dirty BASIC program when he has to. He does however understand low-level software and how it relates to hardware very well - he has an uncanny abiilty to find the lowest cost way to implement something and still make it "reasonable" from a software point of view. [I'm officially a software guy, but I have 3 scopes and a couple of soldering stations (even a desoldering station) - but I do agree: most software guys I know are not like that] Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 21 20:59:00 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: SpinRite? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021191934.11b48918@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021191934.11b48918@pc> Message-ID: <41786964.6060905@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > So to keep this on-topic, when exactly can SpinRite help rescue > old hard drives and floppies? I've used it to good effect in getting data off failing disks. I never considered using it to extend the life of a disk that's failing. To me, that feels like trying to get one last drink of the soured milk. Anyway, SpinRite will move and map recoverable data to good sectors so you can *read* the files without read errors. It's slow as the epoch, but it seems to do a better job of recovery than the other tools I've used. The only time SpinRite didn't do me any good at all was when the luser with the bad hard drive, after being advised to shut it down till I got back in town, got antsy and ran MS-DOS Scandisk on it about 20 times. We didn't get much data back. > And to state the obvious, SpinRite can't raise the dead. > I tried it on a drive that was alive enough to be recognized > by the BIOS, but if SpinRite can't make it spin or read, > it can't help. Time for the other kind of medium - a seance. :) Doc From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 21 17:40:23 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:58:00PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. > > Awww, c'mon, Ethan! Just trot out to the garage and have a look! Psssssst!! Ethan is at south pole! :-O Cheers, Wizard From mcesari at comcast.net Thu Oct 21 21:37:53 2004 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> On Oct 21, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> >> Zane> What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C >> Zane> V1.2, is there anything else/newer? >> >> There's DECUS C. >> >> Zane> I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E >> Zane> binaries. >> >> Not right now, but I keep thinking this should be possible... >> >> paul > > I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the > right > name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. Is Whitesmith's C what you're thinking of? It was also available for CP/M and MS-DOS. I wonder if it's available at all anymore... Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 21 21:54:43 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: >Is Whitesmith's C what you're thinking of? It was also available for CP/M and >MS-DOS. I wonder if it's available at all anymore... That's the one. I have at least a partial copy for RSX-11M and the doc's. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 21 21:54:49 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter) References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Awww, c'mon, Ethan! Just trot out to the garage and have a look! > Psssssst!! Ethan is at south pole! :-O Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. What time zone is at the South Pole? John A. eeney-meenie-miney... From thompson at new.rr.com Thu Oct 21 22:13:01 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > I can probably post pics on my web page if anybody's interested. Sure! From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Oct 21 22:13:08 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: 5 1/4" hard-sectored disk.. In-Reply-To: <1098378734.1924.50.camel@localhost> References: <1098378734.1924.50.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <41787AC4.5030505@pacbell.net> Jim Donoghue wrote: > I have some 5 1/4" hard-sectored disks that contain CPU microcode. They > aren't 'formatted' with a filesystem, but are read with a simple board > that contains some 9602's, a shift register, and a Z80. A dilemma: > should I try to intercept the data from the board, write it to flash > memory, and build a board to replace the whole Z80/hard-sectored disk > thing, *or* try to build something to write the data stream out to > another 5 1/4" disk. The Z80 doesn't care about the sector pulses - only > the index pulse. So I could get away with a standard floppy instead of a > hard-sectored one. > > The disk thing would allow me to keep using the original hardware, which > would be nice, but I don't know the first thing about attempting to > write the data stream back to the disk. > > I have no backups of the microcode disk, and no way to replace it when > it dies. Every time I fire the thing up I feel I'm getting a little > closer to it's death... Jim, if you want to build hardware, you can, but personally, it would be easiest to use a catweasel card -- they can read and write disks. The next generation catweasel card is supposed to be better at handling hard sectored disks, but since you said the hard sectoring doesn't matter, any catweasel card should do. It simply counts how many ticks of a 14 MHz (or other selectable frequency) clock occur between each flux transition and logs it into a RAM. You simply would have to write a bit of software to step the head to the right track, capture a snapshot of one revolution, save the data, step to the next track etc. Then, put in a fresh disk and hand the catweasel card the flux reversal timing that was recorded and ask the card to write out a bit pattern matching the timings you've just given it. If you have two disk drives connect to it, you can ping-pong between then and do the copy that way. So you can make a clone of the disk without having to reverse engineer the disk encoding or format at all. For the $90 or so that it costs, it has to be cheaper than your time to build something custom. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 21 22:48:34 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book Message-ID: <000401c4b7ea$01673db0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm looking for a particular book.... "PDP-11 Assembler Language Programming and Machine Organization" by Michael Singer, softcover I want this particular one for nostalgic reasons, it's the book I learned macro-11 on. I saw a copy on ebay, got outbid (so far), but it's with two other books I don't want. So before bidding further, I thought I'd see if someone has an extra copy for sale or trade. You can see a picture of the particular book above by going to ebay item 5131747255 it's the black (with blue/red/green splotches) book on the left. If anyone has an extra, please let me know! Jay West From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Oct 21 22:48:53 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <16760.22767.539000.480167@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021224833.0b400eb8@localhost> Whitesmith's C? At 05:57 PM 10/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the right >name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. [Internet] "And with so many pages sprouting every day, there is a desperate striving for uniqueness, which has resulted in some of the stupidest uses of cutting edge technology ever seen." --Ashley Dunn of the NY Times, writing about the WorldWideWeb. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From wacarder at usit.net Thu Oct 21 23:12:19 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: How to connect ASR-33 to a PDP-11 DZ11 Panel Message-ID: I have successfully hooked up multiple terminals (two VT52s and an LA36) to my PDP-11/34 using an EIA DZ11 (M7819), and they are all working perfectly on my RSTS/E V7 system, which I SYSGENed for two DZ11s. I have also installed a 20mA DZ11 (M7814) and its associated distribution panel and now I'm ready to hook up a 20mA VT52 and an ASR-33 teletype. I have good documentation on the VT52 and how to get it connected, but the documentation that I have on the ASR-33 does not seem to show how to connect it to a computer. Can someone who has done this before give me some pointers? This surely is a trivial task, but I have not dug deeply enough into the documentation to find out how to do this yet. My ASR-33 works fine in local mode, punches and reads paper tape just fine, and now I want to hook it up to my system. Thanks for any help that anyone can provide. Ashley From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Oct 21 23:39:27 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: The myth of the memory effect- was: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <20041022013047.HVCE11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041021225216.0b448ef0@localhost> 1. NiMH batteries never were subject to any sort of memory effect; the chemistry doesn't do that. But they are harder to charge properly than a NiCd. Now that dual chemistry or even triple chem chargers are commonplace, people forget that-- all the newer chargers have a recent chip in them that figures out from the charge curve what the chemistry is and watches for the little negative delta that signals "full up." Not charging to that point wastes capacity and makes you think the cell can't hold a full charge. Going just slightly beyond shortens cell life a little. Going more than slightly beyond shortens cell life a lot. 2. NiCD batteries never had a memory effect either! Read the literature from the vendors, not the opinions of someone regarded as an expert because he says he's one. Yes, NiCd's wear out, yes, their discharge curve gets steeper as they age, but memory effect? Want to know where that whole thing came from? NASA. Satellites. Batteries charged by a mil-spec charging circuit that cost millions to develop and build, that routinely allowed a set of satellite batteries to discharge to EXACTLY the same point EVERY time, and then charged them back up to EXACTLY the same point again. And guess what? Those batteries DID develop a memory effect. So how many of you have a multi-million dollar charging circuit? On the other hand how many of you have spent a $30-40-50 or $90 on a fancy charge-discharge battery conditioner? I have one, only because I couldn't seem to buy a multichemistry versatile charger without that feature. But I have never used it. I have never purposely discharged a NiCd battery except in normal use. What happens to a cell in a multi-cell battery when you put a heavy enough load on the stack to discharge it in an hour or two, or 15 minutes like some of them do? Well, since all cells in all batteries have perfectly uniform internal resistance, all the cells discharge to the same voltage, and sit there pretty, waiting for you to charge them back up so they can lead fulfilled lives again. Right? I think what can happen is that some cells discharge a lot sooner than others, since in the real world the internal R is lower for some cells than others. Since you are now pulling current *backwards* through at least one cell in the stack, odd are good that some day one of the cells is going to reverse on you, and become a highly inefficient inverted battery, one that's unlikely to ever take an appreciable charge again. This is a real-world problem for discharge devices that don't have both a timer and a voltage monitor, and some ever sense temperature too. So why does every peddler of LiOn and NiMH batteries tout their resistance to the dreaded "memory effect"? Because those technologies are newer, and you need something to differentiate the new from the old. Makes a great selling point, and the myth of the memory effect having something to do with real life and the way normal people use batteries is something that has been repeated so often, it's become indistinguishable from reality. References: (Which I urge you to read!) http://www.hippy.freeserve.co.uk/nicdmyth.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_effect http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Memory.html http://www.sheldonbrown.com/marty_sla-nicad.html#memory which quotes the GE tech notes and from which I quote: "To the well informed, however, 'memory' is a term applied to a specific phenomenon encountered very infrequently in field applications. Specifically, the term 'memory' came from an aerospace nickel-cadmium application in which the cells were repeatedly discharged to 25% of available capacity (plus or minus 1%) by exacting computer control, then recharged to 100% capacity WITHOUT OVERCHARGE [emphasis in the original]. This long term, repetitive cycle regime, with no provisions for overcharge, resulted in a loss of capacity beyond the 25% discharge point. Hence the birth of a "memory" phenomenon, whereby nickel-cadmium batteries purportedly lose capacity if repeatedly discharged to a specific level of capacity. "The 'memory' phenomenon observed in this original aerospace application was eliminated by simply reprogramming the computer to allow for overcharging. [Note that no mention is made of adding an intentional *discharge* to clear the problem - RLM] In fact, 'memory' is always a completely reversible condition; even in those rare cases where 'memory' cannot be avoided, it can easily be erased. Unfortunately, the idea of memory-related loss of capacity has been with us since. Realistically, however, ' memory' cannot exist if any one of the following conditions holds: 1. Batteries achieve full overcharge. 2. Discharge is not exactly the same each cycle - plus or minus 2-3% 3. Discharge is to less than 1.0 volt per cell. "Remember, the existence of any ONE of these conditions eliminates the possibility of 'memory'. GE has not verified true 'memory' in any field application with the single exception of the satellite application noted above. Lack of empirical evidence notwithstanding, 'memory' is still blamed regularly for poor battery performance that is caused by a number of simple, correctable application problems." End of quote ... Basically memory (loss of capacity) due to discharge is a myth. Reduction of your NiCads / NiMH capacity due to overcharging (heating) and, cell reversal in voltage depressed battery packs kill your batteries. http://www.resrchintl.com/memory_effects.html Very good, well written, good hints for using your batteries effectively. http://www.saftbatteries.com/110-MS_Telecom/20-40-20_technical.asp#aa Here's a battery maker saying No Memory Effect in currently produced product. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/greenbatteries-store/nibafa.html which says, in part: If you use NiCd batteries you should be aware that most of the problems experienced by NiCd battery users are not due to a "memory effect" but are due to overcharging or improper storage. Overcharging is usually caused by poorly designed first generation battery chargers. These chargers continue to deliver current to the batteries even after the batteries are full charged. Regards, -Tom At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >>> -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with > >>> nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) > >> > >> Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of > >> charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. > > > >I won't charge them in the calculator, they are regular AA cells so I > >can remove them and put them in a proper charger. :^) > >Here's a question for battery guru's ... I have a gadget I built for >preventing "memory effect" in various nicad powered devices - mainly >ones like my Digicams which only discharge the battery 1/2 way (or >less) before complaining that the battery is low. > >It is basically two springy metal bars which lets me put up to 10 AA or >C cells in parallel to discharge (I've got portable @M and 70CM rigs powered >by a C cell pack), an Ammeter, a low resistance, and a stud rectifier diode. > >Basically, it draws about an amp from the cell when they are near fully >changed, and trickles down to nothing as they approach .7ish volts, and >never lets them go to zero. > >I works REALLY well with nicads - I've got cells that I've been using in >my radios for many years and they still work very well (Prior to using >this, they would noticably lose capacity after a while)... > >But: It doesn't seem to be quite as effective with NMIH cells ... they >still seem to be losing capacity ... > >Any explaination, comments etc.? > >Regards, >Dave > > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html [Sex] Dietrich is some something that never existed before and may never exist again. That's a woman. --Josef von Sternberg --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters@nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, Cisco Certified CCNA From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Oct 22 01:03:03 2004 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: SGI monitors/kb/mice etc - anybody need 'em? Message-ID: <15008.1098424983@www46.gmx.net> Hello everybody, as ISTR from some discussions, SGI human interface devices are not easily replaceable by anything else and are in some demand because it is not unusual for a machine to arrive sans keyboard, mouse and/or monitor. University is decommissioning its SGI gear, so I have a chance to grab the following: Keyboard SGI No. 062-0002-001 Type RT6856T (2x) Mouse SGI No. 063-0009-001 (2x) Monitor (Type designation not available) (2x) Camera SGI No. 013-1577-001 (2x) Makes two complete installations minus the computers. These are long gone, so this is headed for the dumpster unless I call in. I'm not into SGI stuff yet, so it doesn't make much sense to keep it myself (unless somebody throws in a CPU for me :-) ), but I thought I'd offer it here. Don't know how much demand there'll be, so I see what comes in and then decide where it goes. This is basically give-away + s&h (I just wanna save it from the scrapper), but counter-gifts will not be rejected. Shipping is an issue (the monitors are big and quite heavy!), so local pickup is preferred. Er, yes, local to Erlangen University, Northern Bavaria, Germany, Europe. Yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de +++ GMX DSL Premiumtarife 3 Monate gratis* + WLAN-Router 0,- EUR* +++ Clevere DSL-Nutzer wechseln jetzt zu GMX: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From medavidson at mac.com Fri Oct 22 01:05:20 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> References: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5A972E9A-23F0-11D9-9179-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> On Oct 21, 2004, at 7:37 PM, Mike Cesari wrote: > > On Oct 21, 2004, at 6:57 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>>>>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >>> >>> Zane> What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C >>> Zane> V1.2, is there anything else/newer? >>> >>> There's DECUS C. >>> >>> Zane> I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E >>> Zane> binaries. >>> >>> Not right now, but I keep thinking this should be possible... >>> >>> paul >> >> I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the >> right >> name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. > > Is Whitesmith's C what you're thinking of? It was also available for > CP/M and > MS-DOS. I wonder if it's available at all anymore... > > Mike > > I may be wrong, but I don't remember Whitesmith's C being available for CP/M, and I could swear it wasn't available for MS/DOS either. Whitesmith did have a Unix-like OS called IDRIS, and they did have a C compiler, but I thought it was only available for "larger" computers, not the PC. Unfortunately, all the Whitesmith products have vanished into the ether... they got bought by someone and as far as I know, are no longer available. Funny, there are several products that I wish could be brought back from the dead, even if it was just to study how they were put together. I can think of the following: 1) Whitesmith's IDRIS 2) CCA Emacs - an Emacs clone that was available for various Unix and VMS systems 3) Unipress Emacs - the original Emacs written by James Gosling when he worked at a university, repackaged and sold as a commercial product (although I've seen the Gosling C source floating around at some point). Mark From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 22 01:10:36 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113357@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, thanks for all the responses, I have some leads now. Here is a report what I tried so far. Searching the Internet, I found the setup files set320p and pwr320p for the DECpc 320P. Alas, the setup allows several items to be configured, but the hard disk is not one of them! Next, I found Ontrack DiskManager versions for IBM and for Microscience, but the IBM version stops because it does not detect a hard disk of their brand. BTW, my 2.5" hard disk is from HP, type C2965A. The Microscience version allows 7 different types to be set, but up till now I did not get satisfactory results. I can get to 50 Mb, but compared to the original hard disk (40Mb) that is not much gain, especially when you think that the C2965A is 420 Mb ...! I also have the version from Western Digital, EZ-Drive (Data Lifeguard) but this version also stops because the disk is not from WD. Not yet tried is a version from Fujitsu, and the version I received from Pete (thanks Pete!). I guess it's clear what I will be doing this weekend :-) thanks for all the help and advice, - Henk, PA8PDP. From unibus at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 04:55:15 2004 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: <200410211700.i9LH0462013888@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200410211700.i9LH0462013888@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: "John A. Dundas III" > In a bit of a follow-up to myself, I managed to locate one of the > mark-sense cards and the template I referred to earlier. Some > (crude) pictures may be view of each of theses at: > > Very similar to the cards we used but not quite the same. Think the main body of the card was different. Unfortunately I can't lay my hands on a sample. Regards, Garry From unibus at gmail.com Fri Oct 22 05:18:37 2004 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP customer on Cleveland, OH needs urgent help In-Reply-To: <200410211700.i9LH0462013888@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200410211700.i9LH0462013888@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > From: Jay West > Just got a call from a PDP-11/05 customer in Cleveland OH. They are in a > crisis situation due to a dead 11/05. They suspect memory problems but > there may be power supply issues as well. > > If there is anyone local to them with 11/05 parts and or expertise, can > you please call me right away? > > Best number to reach me right now is 314-494-7338 > > This company is willing to pay for help as the 11/05 being down takes > their milling machine down. Probably too far away, but some thoughts. Be careful what cards you pull out as the power supply has a crowbar arrangement that trips if you have too light a load (DC supply line voltage rises above trip point). Case of refer to the manual and check the supply voltages. Relatively easy on the 11/05 if you have the maintenance manual. The processor & power supply can be checked by storing and executing instructions from the general registers. If you can't store/read from front panel you probably have a power supply problem or problems with that logic. If the problem is down to the processor boards you really need a hex width extension card and the maintenance cards to single step the processor. Core memory can be tested and then track down problems with a CRO if you can't board swap your way out of trouble. If caught with dead core and you have the 10-1/2" high processor unit can install later generation MUD then install a MOS memory board. Just have to move the power cabling. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 22 05:40:38 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: The myth of the memory effect- was: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <20041022104037.VVMK14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Thanks for the info on NMIH. >2. NiCD batteries never had a memory effect either! I knew this would spark a thread on the existance or non-existance of memroy effect - I think they are a lot better now than they were (as are chargers), however Nicads (especially older ones) which regularily discharged only partly do lose capacity - I have observed it. >I think what can happen is that some cells discharge a lot sooner than >others, since in the real world the internal R is lower for some cells than >others. Since you are now pulling current *backwards* through at least one >cell in the stack, odd are good that some day one of the cells is going to >reverse on you, and become a highly inefficient inverted battery, one >that's unlikely to ever take an appreciable charge again. This is a >real-world problem for discharge devices that don't have both a timer and a >voltage monitor, and some ever sense temperature too. Yup - best way to kill a nicad "pack" is to fully discharge it - that is why I use individual cells, and discharge them in parallel through a diode - no cell ever goes below .7v. >Here's a battery maker saying No Memory Effect in currently produced product. Ah - the catch phrase is "currently produced" - As I indicated above, I think things have improved... but the Nicad cells I am using are 10+ years old. I can provide references to manufacturers telling you to be sure and fully discharge your cells from time to time as well ... it's a question that is still being debated, and nobody is going to convince anyone else either way - my personal experience is that calls which are carefully charged, and just a carefully full-discharged retain their capacity and last a lot longer than cells which are not fully discharged... Agreed thad modern NMIH cells do not seem nearly as "sensitive". YMMV. But ... we drift OT ... thanks for you input. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 22 05:59:21 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <20041022013047.HVCE11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041022065823.03571c38@192.168.0.1> At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: >But: It doesn't seem to be quite as effective with NMIH cells ... they >still seem to be losing capacity ... > >Any explaination, comments etc.? NiCad are better than NiMH longevity wise. Here's link to place I found helpful in explaining: http://www.buchmann.ca/chap10-page1.asp Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 22 06:04:37 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041022070010.0345a008@192.168.0.1> At 09:42 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: > >>> HITS NAIL ON HEAD > >1) I know many hardware hackers who don't know a compiler from a debugger >[Thinking of some of my Ham buddies].... Debugger? Isn't that what printf("at step 2\r\n"); and while(!kbhit()); are for? >2) I tend to hit finger with hammer and from nail. You type good, must not be using hammer much, eh? :-) Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Fri Oct 22 06:11:42 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: References: <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> <5FD40CA8-23D3-11D9-81C9-000A956B167C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041022070938.035783e8@192.168.0.1> At 10:54 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: >>Is Whitesmith's C what you're thinking of? It was also available for CP/M and >>MS-DOS. I wonder if it's available at all anymore... > >That's the one. I have at least a partial copy for RSX-11M and the doc's. Whitesmith's C for RSX11 MT9: I figured it was sort of worthless without the docs, maybe not: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5726503986&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT Still has a few days to run. Ed K. From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Oct 22 06:21:37 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <20041022112136.WKLU14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 06:59 22/10/2004 -0400, you wrote: >At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: >>But: It doesn't seem to be quite as effective with NMIH cells ... they >>still seem to be losing capacity ... >> >>Any explaination, comments etc.? > >NiCad are better than NiMH longevity wise. > >Here's link to place I found helpful in explaining: > >http://www.buchmann.ca/chap10-page1.asp Thanks Ed, Lots of useful information - I normally cycle/discharge the nicads every couple of months - looks like I want to space that out for the NMIH - I did not realize that they had so much less charge/discharge endurance (a fact that the manufacturers seem to have forgotten to mention in their comparisons). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 06:38:04 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: Hardware (What Interests me....) was : (PDP-8/s on e-bay) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041022070010.0345a008@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: >>> > >>> HITS NAIL ON HEAD >>> > >>> >1) I know many hardware hackers who don't know a compiler from a >>> >debugger [Thinking of some of my Ham buddies].... >>> >>> Debugger? Isn't that what printf("at step >>> 2\r\n"); and while(!kbhit()); are for? >>> Not at all! Regardless of what type of system you are working on a real debugger is just as necessary as a 'scope for working on hardware. MINIMAL functionallity should include: breakpoints and the ability at monitor/alter memory while the program is executing (albiet typically paused). For embedded systems I prefer an ICE, altought I do work with many systems where I use a "monitor" approach. For desktop appliction level programs, I usually use a commercial debugger. For OS or driver (Ring-0) code, I have debug versions of the kernal for most of my development environments. >>> >2) I tend to hit finger with hammer and from nail. >>> >>> You type good, must not be using hammer much, eh? >>> Re-read the above (it was supposed to read "and drop nail"!)...I was not typing so good. Seriously I learned to type on a Royal manual typewriter at a fairly young age. I did not have the strength to "touch type" the outter keys [QAZP], so I sort of adapted. Then I worked on ASR-33's which did not lend themselves to touch typing either. These days I type a nearly the rate of a "typist" but with a distinctly unique style of using From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 22 08:43:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP customer on Cleveland, OH needs urgent help References: <200410211700.i9LH0462013888@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16761.3731.289000.251214@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "unibus" == unibus writes: unibus> The processor & power supply can be checked by storing and unibus> executing instructions from the general registers. ...which is a feature unique to the PDP11/05 and 11/10. The odd thing is that the PC increments by 1 in this case, so you can use all 6 general registers (not the PC of course -- but registers 0 through 6, at address 777700 through 777706 can be used for small test programs. (See also the PDP11 trivial quiz...) paul From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 22 03:48:59 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:09 2005 Subject: SGI monitors/kb/mice etc - anybody need 'em? In-Reply-To: <15008.1098424983@www46.gmx.net> References: <15008.1098424983@www46.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20041022104859.21b0d0d7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:03:03 +0200 (MEST) "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > I'm not into SGI stuff yet, so it doesn't make much sense to keep it > myself(unless somebody throws in a CPU for me :-) ), I have a unused SGI Personal IRIS 4D30 siting idle in my machine room... > but I thought I'd offer it here. If nobody wants it you may ask on the sgihelp.org mailing lists. http://www.sgihelp.org/mailman/listinfo/sgi-rescue -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 22 03:38:00 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: OT: HP PA-8500 vs. AMD Opteron In-Reply-To: <004701c4b7c0$264ab2d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000301c4b71d$b370b860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4177C019.23145.5D90C43@localhost> <004701c4b7c0$264ab2d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041022103800.73fcd482.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:48:57 -0500 "Jay West" wrote: > The comparison I was looking for was between the Itanium and the > Opteron. Well. I was toled that HP internaly handled the Itanium as PA-8900. So your question isn't that wrong. ;-) I don't have exact numbers, but I think current Opterons are still faster then Itanics. In addition the Opteron has a better I/O / memory interconnect concept. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gtulloch at shaw.ca Sun Oct 17 10:01:43 2004 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (Gord Tulloch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic MZ 2.1 ROM needed Message-ID: <41728957.2020601@shaw.ca> Hi there: I have a Vector Graphic MZ machine in nice condition except that the Flashwriter II board seems to be broken, so using the Mindless Terminal is out of the question. I understand that the version of the Monitor ROM I have (either 3.1 or 4.0) does not support serial terminals so I'm dead in the water unless I can dig up a 2.1 ROM or write my own (with two young kids pretty doubtful I'll get to it real soon). Using a serial terminal is fine with me until I can get a new FWII or fix the one I have. So, I'm hoping someone out there has a Vector machine kicking around with a 2.1 ROM - I'd love to simply drop a new ROM into the machine and go, but a binary file will do or even a listing, I don't care. I'm happy to reimburse you for your trouble and materials, of course. Please reply or send me a note at gtulloch (at) shaw.ca if you can help me track this animal down, I'd love to get this MZ back in action. Thanks! Regards, Gord From aklein at businessnet.de Sun Oct 17 15:55:39 2004 From: aklein at businessnet.de (Andreas Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Fujitsu M2294p drives & interfaces Message-ID: <001201c4b48b$a9552580$6502a8c0@internetrechner> Hello, I buy a M2294P at Ebay Germany. Do you know something about this HDD? Capacy or something. Sorry for my bad english. THX Andreas From KParker at workcover.com Sun Oct 17 18:41:29 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Serial Port Expanders Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7FBB@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Thanks Jay - let me know ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Saturday, 16 October 2004 11:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Serial Port Expanders I may have a spare Digiboard PC/8, isa board. It is only configured for 4 ports though. I will check this weekend and see if I still have it. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker, Kevin" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 12:28 AM Subject: Serial Port Expanders > I've got PC-MOS/386 and wonder if serial port expanders for a 386 or 486 > can still be sourced. A hunt of the net opened a minefield of such > devices - hoping I can get some help from this list. > > TIA!!!! > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > m: 0418 806 166 > e: kparker@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > > ++++++++++ > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > > > ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From KParker at workcover.com Sun Oct 17 18:41:39 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Serial Port Expanders Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7FBC@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Where are you located ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Nico de Jong Sent: Saturday, 16 October 2004 7:20 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Serial Port Expanders Are you thinking of adapters with e.g. 4 extra com ports ? I have some 8-bit EISA cards (4 ports) and a PCI card from LAVA with 2 ports. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Parker, Kevin" To: Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Serial Port Expanders > I've got PC-MOS/386 and wonder if serial port expanders for a 386 or 486 can still be sourced. A hunt of the net opened a minefield of such devices - hoping I can get some help from this list. > > TIA!!!! > > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > m: 0418 806 166 > e: kparker@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > > ++++++++++ > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.774 / Virus Database: 521 - Release Date: 07-10-2004 ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 17 20:31:01 2004 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: PC BIOS Access In-Reply-To: <4171588D.CC663E43@rain.org> References: <4171588D.CC663E43@rain.org> Message-ID: <41731CD5.4000305@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > * Setup disk (IBM AT) > * Del key > * Cntl-Alt-Insert > * Cntl-Alt-S > * F1 key > * F2 key > * F10 key (Compaq) CTRL-ALT-ENTER (some Phoenix BIOS on a 386 I own) INSERT (some old BIOS on a 486 I own, in storage, can't tell you which one, sorry) -- Jim Leonard (trixter@oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 17 20:33:11 2004 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <4166E4D8.3020904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4166E48E.29B66ACF@rain.org> <4166E4D8.3020904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <41731D57.60306@oldskool.org> ben franchuk wrote: > How about no backups of floppy disks, they can be bad still in a unopened > box of software. I found this with a few old games I bought. Were they high-density or low-density? I've *never* had a 5.25" DSDD disk go bad on me, but several high-density disks have "faded"... I attribute this to the much denser packing on HD disks. I bought Flight Simulator for PC (1982) and it still works in my Model 5150... -- Jim Leonard (trixter@oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 17 20:35:32 2004 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Storage Hazards In-Reply-To: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041008200317.90187.qmail@web52805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41731DE4.6040805@oldskool.org> Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > Speaking of which... LOL, can someone suggest a way to CLEAN battery acid? Is > my PDA salvageable? Normally I'd tell you to start getting out the vinegar and clean the crusty battery acid off, but Palm III's are $40, new, on ebay. My Palm IIIxe ($300, new) just died last week and I replaced it with a Sony Clie for $40, used. -- Jim Leonard (trixter@oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From KParker at workcover.com Sun Oct 17 22:41:12 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: DEC Station almost Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> A while ago I picked up a DEC Station 5000/150 - it was just the main box and a couple of storage expansion boxes - one containing a floppy and hard drive and the other a tape drive and hard drive. I was most fortunate on the weekend and picked up a 19" colour Monitor for it. All I'm missing now are the keyboard and the mouse. Can anyone advise if these were proprietary devices for the DEC Stations or can I use something else. TIA!!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Oct 19 21:42:53 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Altos 586 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041019213755.00adc658@mail.earthlink.net> Hello, I am the happy recipient of an Altos 586 system that was listed available here a few weeks ago. I have the machine safe and up and running now. I apparently was the only person who replied to the offer of the machine, but am hoping there may be others here who have this system. Mine arrived with Xenix 3.0 installed on the drive, but I have no installation media. I had one of these systems years ago with the installation media but passed the machine and diskettes on with the machine. The Altos 586 is actually a rather interesting machine. It runs Microsoft ('pre SCO') Xenix, based on System 3 UNIX. This particular machine supports five users on it's row of serial ports, all connected on dumb terminals or terminal emulators. It's not a very robust UNIX but it is interesting to note that Microsoft sold a UNIX capable of supporting 5 users on an 8086 processor in 512K of RAM (classic UNIX, of course, could support many more on less RAM, but this is still a pretty cool machine). Any help or leads people can offer for this machine would be greatly appreciated. -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.775 / Virus Database: 522 - Release Date: 10/8/2004 From mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org Tue Oct 19 15:25:02 2004 From: mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org (Martin Bishop) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tom Jennings wrote: or funny hardware to talk USB (and I don't think USB will guarnetee me my latency) ------ The Cypress FX2 (CY7C68013) would, with the aid of a state machine to drive the sampling, (double) buffering and crank the byte stream into the FX2's FIFO, enable the continuous recording of your data stream. However, the FX2 EVB is ~$500, and as you note the SBC approach at $100 is cheaper. Nonetheless, the FX2 can (according to the specs) move up to 480Mb/s through the class drivers. There may be a cheaper FX2 platform or simply cheaper USB hardware available. However, it a capable and (programmer) friendly device, ideally suited to bridging between bespoke interfaces and a laptop. wrt latency, not even asynchronous logic will give you ZERO LATENCY. And, if I've understood the requirement correctly it is to acquire a finite block of data at a constant rate without gaps; so latency is not a system level requirement. hth, just putting the case for USB (2.0) ;-) Martin From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Oct 19 18:52:40 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Tech TV References: <000501c4b213$219d82b0$0100a8c0@nome9qdzofpy2n> Message-ID: <000c01c4b636$b7ea2080$6401a8c0@hal9000> Our very own Sellam Ismail was on the Screen Savers ( on G4-TechTV, DirecTV channel 354 ) today talking about vintage computing and demo'd a PDP-1 front panel / emulator. Very cool. Great job Ismail and thanks for spreading the word. This program should be on again tomorrow morning at 9:00 A.M. PST on DirecTV. Best regards, Steven From CLattin at cblh.com Tue Oct 19 07:54:43 2004 From: CLattin at cblh.com (Christopher Lattin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: AT&T Gemini Electronic Blackboard Message-ID: <12CFE01B777F594092695BEF7422DCAA826117@wilmexch.hq.cblhlaw.com> Steve, Do you still have an AT&T Gemini Blackboard for sale? Chris From res20nop at verizon.net Tue Oct 19 20:22:39 2004 From: res20nop at verizon.net (Sharon & Ken Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: KSR33 Message-ID: <20041020012238.TPRN3542.out009.verizon.net@Vagabond> Hi All I didn't realize this was a group listing but that's OK. I would like to let you all know that the PDP11 is gone. It went the following day. I would like to clarify some things that seems to be the real issues with the KSR33. I am located on the West Coast in Portland Oregon. My mistake for not putting that in the original note. There has been concern about the shipping costs and the actual packing of the TTY for shipment. I have never had to pack up something like this or know what the costs would be for shipping it to the East Coast. It seems like most of the responses that I got were somewhere near the east coast. I am really interested in getting rid of this TTY but I need some more explicit help on how to prepare this for shipping. Ken From dave3 at toadware.ca Wed Oct 20 14:58:00 2004 From: dave3 at toadware.ca (dave3@toadware.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? Message-ID: <118440-220041032019580605@M2W085.mail2web.com> Hi Ethan, >> I am looking for: >> >> - Information on the power supply - I did not get a power supply >> with the modem - it has a 5-pin DIN type connector. Can anyone >> give me the pinout and power requirements? >Can't help there, but worst case, it shouldn't be difficult to >reverse-engineer the power supply... if there is some kind of >regulator, it might take a wide range of voltages. If not, then >one of the pins is probably +5V. It's old enough that I wouldn't >assume it uses a C-64 supply or even the voltages for the C-64 >(+5VDC, 9VAC), but it's worth looking at. Thats my plan-B - but I'm hopeing someone has this modem and can at least measure the supplies - Sometimes older analog stuff uses "funny" voltages and it might not be obvious what the supplies are supposed to be - agreed that it should be easy to identify 5V for the logic - it appears to be "completely manual" with switches for Answer- Off-Originate, so I don't think there's much logic except for the IEEE interface. >> - Documentation? Anyone have a scan of the manual? >Not me; sorry. Perhaps on funet? Didn't find anything on funet - but I will continue to look. Not much mention of this device at all that I could find via google. >> - Information on how it is used ... What sort of IEEE device does it >> show up as? Is there "special software" that is used with it? etc.? > >Worst case, you could write a quick BASIC program to try OPENing all the >devices from 4 to 31 and see where it responds (once you get the power >issue resolved). Without docs, it'll be hard to tell if there are any >significant secondary addresses, though. Yeah - not that I have a burning desire to communiate at 300bps, but I like to get everything that I collect working ... I did find a couple of references to software for this modem, which I am trying to track down. I've never used an IEEE modem on a PET, so it might be "interesting" to try and figure it out on my own... >Nice find. I've never seen one. Good luck on the hunt for docs. Here's a picture I found ... I will be adding my own pics to my site on the next update (but I just updated it so it will be a while): http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/hardware/pet_acc_coupler1.JPG Regards, Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From rimmer at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 20 17:46:33 2004 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041021004313.03a665e0@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to make some sort of adapter. Had a look at some schematics and they looked the same to me, data lines on the same pins etc. Any help is welcome. Ow the reason I want to know this is that I want to read some old roms in my EPROM reader. Cheers, Stefan. From g-wright at att.net Thu Oct 21 02:06:17 2004 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: DEC stash in VA (gov) Message-ID: <102120040706.28123.41775FE8000D2EE800006DDB21612436469B0809079D99D309@att.net> Just what you can see looks good ... Sure would like to know whats in the boxes.... Anyone close to this, Looks interesting. Too Bad i'm in Seattle. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=464866 - Jerry From BBalow at dickinson-wright.com Thu Oct 21 08:21:23 2004 From: BBalow at dickinson-wright.com (Brian R. Balow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: otrona advanced systems Message-ID: I ran across your email inquiry regarding Otrona Advanced Systems. I worked there in quality assurance from 1982 until its untimely demise in the fall (I believe October) of 1984. The company did not pursue Chapter 11, instead heading immediately into a liquidation. Kodak was a prominent investor. Let me know if you'd like any additional information. Brian R. Balow Dickinson Wright PLLC 38525 Woodward Avenue Bloomfield Hills, MI 48304 248 433-7536 248 433-7274 (fax) 248 943-6953 (cell) From geoffham at gmail.com Thu Oct 21 13:58:36 2004 From: geoffham at gmail.com (Geoff Hamilton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Stephen Dorsey and Micom Message-ID: <71e18754041021115835feb941@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lawrence, I was just perusing the ClassicCMP archives and noticed a post you made on Fri Nov 15 20:18:14 2002 about the Micom - a computer that was very much ahead of its time - and wondering if its founder Stephen Dorsey was still alive. He is very much alive and kicking: he's in Montreal and now the president of BabyTEL, a major Voice-over-IP company in Canada and subsidary of Voice & Data Systems. I met him through a business connection - truly a fascinating man, and still working in fields that are ahead of their time (he's been working at VoIP since the early 90s!). Let's hope he get rich this time. Geoff From gslick at gte.net Thu Oct 21 17:37:37 2004 From: gslick at gte.net (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software? Message-ID: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an Intel iPDS 100? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 22 10:55:08 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113357@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113357@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <41792D5C.407@sbcglobal.net> Apologies, I didn't get a chance to look for my OnTrack Disk Manager software last night. I'll definitely dig it up this weekend... Gooijen H wrote: > Hi all, > > thanks for all the responses, I have some leads now. > Here is a report what I tried so far. > Searching the Internet, I found the setup files set320p and pwr320p for > the DECpc 320P. Alas, the setup allows several items to be configured, > but the hard disk is not one of them! > Next, I found Ontrack DiskManager versions for IBM and for Microscience, > but the IBM version stops because it does not detect a hard disk of their > brand. BTW, my 2.5" hard disk is from HP, type C2965A. > The Microscience version allows 7 different types to be set, but up till > now I did not get satisfactory results. I can get to 50 Mb, but compared > to the original hard disk (40Mb) that is not much gain, especially when > you think that the C2965A is 420 Mb ...! > > I also have the version from Western Digital, EZ-Drive (Data Lifeguard) > but this version also stops because the disk is not from WD. > Not yet tried is a version from Fujitsu, and the version I received from > Pete (thanks Pete!). > I guess it's clear what I will be doing this weekend :-) > > thanks for all the help and advice, > - Henk, PA8PDP. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 11:01:43 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <200410221601.JAA11603@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >>>> -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with >>>> nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) >>> >>> Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of >>> charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. >> >>I won't charge them in the calculator, they are regular AA cells so I >>can remove them and put them in a proper charger. :^) > >Here's a question for battery guru's ... I have a gadget I built for >preventing "memory effect" in various nicad powered devices - mainly >ones like my Digicams which only discharge the battery 1/2 way (or >less) before complaining that the battery is low. > >It is basically two springy metal bars which lets me put up to 10 AA or >C cells in parallel to discharge (I've got portable @M and 70CM rigs powered >by a C cell pack), an Ammeter, a low resistance, and a stud rectifier diode. > >Basically, it draws about an amp from the cell when they are near fully >changed, and trickles down to nothing as they approach .7ish volts, and >never lets them go to zero. > Hi Actually, NiCad's can be discharged to zero without problems. It is tha back charging in stack, as batteries, that causes the problems. In fact, NiCad's are often shipped with shorting bars across the terminals. >I works REALLY well with nicads - I've got cells that I've been using in >my radios for many years and they still work very well (Prior to using >this, they would noticably lose capacity after a while)... > >But: It doesn't seem to be quite as effective with NMIH cells ... they >still seem to be losing capacity ... These cells shouldn't be discharged to zero. Just different technology. One thing you might try ( as an experiment ). Hit them with a momentary high current load. This is done on NiCad's to improve their performance and may have a similar effect on nickle metal hydrides. It does need to be controlled because like NiCad's, once the burst seal is broken, expect them to be worthless in a few months. Dwight > >Any explaination, comments etc.? > >Regards, >Dave > > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 22 11:28:56 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488 Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <118440-220041032019580605@M2W085.mail2web.com> Message-ID: > Yeah - not that I have a burning desire to communiate at 300bps, but I > like to get everything that I collect working ... I did find a couple of > references to software for this modem, which I am trying to track down. > I've never used an IEEE modem on a PET, so it might be "interesting" to > try and figure it out on my own... > > If you're interested, I saw a huge '488 to RS-232 converter box on eBay last night. I don't have the url, but it should be easy to find. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Oct 22 11:29:24 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: DEC Station almost In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623DC7FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Parker, Kevin wrote: > A while ago I picked up a DEC Station 5000/150 - it was just the main box > and a couple of storage expansion boxes - one containing a floppy and hard > drive and the other a tape drive and hard drive. > > I was most fortunate on the weekend and picked up a 19" colour Monitor for > it. All I'm missing now are the keyboard and the mouse. > > Can anyone advise if these were proprietary devices for the DEC Stations or > can I use something else. DS5000/1xx's use standard (for DEC) LK204/LK401 keyboards and VSXXX-AA or VSXXX-GA mice. (No PC stuff please) Peter Wallace From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Fri Oct 22 11:50:30 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: OT: Peter Packet Message-ID: <001c01c4b857$3da92fa0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> Definitely OT, but I think this is priceless... http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/779/edu/peterpacket2/deliverables/funland_p lay.htm Patrick From chris.muller at mullermedia.com Fri Oct 22 11:57:59 2004 From: chris.muller at mullermedia.com (Chris Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Classic OS's In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041017074501.03615450@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <002901c4b858$49ac06a0$670aa8c0@CMHPLAPTOP> I loved both RT-11 and TSX+. The DEC guys kept saying we needed large VAX's to do what wer were already doing every day on an 11/23. :-) Eventually, because PC "C" compilers/debuggers were better and cheaper, we ported our code to PC--else we might still be running on our good old PDP-11. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ed Kelleher Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 7:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Classic OS's At 10:46 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: >Other than software for the PDP-8 was there any low cost time sharing systems >that you can still find software for? Note no replies about multi-tasking >basics please. TSX+? A time sharing extension of RT11 on PDP11's. Super product, very efficient. We did a lot of PDP11 multi terminal medical billing systems with it. S and H is till around I believe. Ed K. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 12:07:06 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: The myth of the memory effect- was: NMIH batteries - was: Re: HP 25 and HP55 Message-ID: <200410221707.KAA11656@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Tom >From: "Tom Peters" > ---snip--- >2. NiCD batteries never had a memory effect either! Read the literature ---snip a lot of good stuff--- Thank you for mentioning this. I think, a lot of what people think of as memory is caused by unequal charging of battery stacks. As the cell that has the most charge remaining reaches full charge, the current through this cell reduces. The cell that has been lagging behind, never receives a full change. Flattening the stack lets them all start from a more equal playing field. The problem people miss with flattening is that if a cell is reverse charged, the depolarizers are at the wrong ends of the cells and the gas pressure builds up causing the burst seal to fail. Although, immediately after charging, this cell seems to work fine, within a month or so the cell will fail, simply because it dries out inside :( It may also leak on things. As I stated before, long term storage of NiCads is best done with them fully discharged. This keeps metal fingers from developing that cause the shorted cells that we often see. One can also store them at full charge because this tends to blow out any metal fingers that grow. The problem is that storing mostly discharged cell is the worst since there is both the voltage that causes the metal fingers to grow and not enough capacity to blow them out when they do short. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 12:15:29 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <200410221715.KAA11662@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Hi, >> >> I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be >> really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 >> eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to make > >I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is >otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your >programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). > >-tony > Hi Tony I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. The problem with the newer EPROM parts is that they do not require pulsing of the programming voltage. Many programmers simply leave the programming voltage high while reading or verifying. This is real bad for mask parts. Also, most mask parts use the programming voltage pin as another select. This means that it may need to be in the opposite state that, even a programmer that allows setting of the program voltage, may not be in the right state to read. Also, I think this fellow is off the list and doesn't realize that he is talking to a list. I suspect he is missing our conversations related to his issue. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 22 13:08:40 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: DEC stash in VA (gov) In-Reply-To: <102120040706.28123.41775FE8000D2EE800006DDB21612436469B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Oct 21, 2004 07:06:17 AM Message-ID: <200410221808.i9MI8fF2021632@onyx.spiritone.com> > Sure would like to know whats in the boxes.... > > Anyone close to this, Looks interesting. Too Bad > i'm in Seattle. > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=464866 > > - Jerry > Actually it looks like the only DEC stuff in that pile is the TS11 9-Track tape drives, which look in pretty sorry shape. Zane From dmabry at mich.com Fri Oct 22 13:15:35 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software? In-Reply-To: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> References: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <41794E47.8000706@mich.com> I have put together some teledisk images of system disks for the iPDS. I can e-mail them to you. You have to be able to run Teledisk on a PC with a 5 1/4" HD drive to create a boot diskette for the iPDS from the images. If you are game to try that, let me know and I'll e-mail you the image to try. They were created on a 16MHz 386SX machine, if that matters. Sometimes Teledisk is particular to the cpu it is running on. Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an > Intel iPDS 100? > > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Fri Oct 22 13:17:14 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book Message-ID: <041022141714.2ef@splab.cas.neu.edu> Jay, I have a copy, copywrite 1980. Does not appear to have been written in (notes). It does look like there is some discoloration on the top, perhaps something sprayed over my books and some got on the top edges. It did not penetrate very far, and can only be seen barely on the top edges of the pages when looking through the book.. You can have it. Sometime by me a coffee. It's not worth sending anything to cover postage. I need an address. Joe Heck BTW, you never answered on if you wanted the 11/45 book I had... From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 13:57:45 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter) In-Reply-To: <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20041022185745.GA19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 10:54:49PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. > What time zone is at the South Pole? Well... the easy answer is "whichever one we want". In fact, the one we have selected is the one that matches where our flights come from so it's easy to synchronize operations. That means NZST/NZDT, since our flights come from McMurdo, and their flights come from Christchurch, NZ (yes, we are at GMT+13 right now, and we _do_ observe daylight savings time, even though the sun is up 24/7) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 18:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.2 F (-48.5 C) Windchill -65.3 F (-54.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 1.8 kts Grid 062 Barometer 672.8 mb (10900. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 14:44:44 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:45:31PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > Could be. I think these might have been the cans in a full-wide > shelf, too. The bridge board is about 8" x 12", and sits above the PSU, > with the ESDI drives sitting sideways in the enclosure in front of that. Hmm... that size sounds different than the one I have - my memory is a card that is square and about 8" on a side. > >Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. > > Awww, c'mon, Ethan! Just trot out to the garage and have a look! A) It's in the basement B) The basement is in Ohio C) Ohio is 12,000 miles from here. > I'm going to test the power and check them out, and then ASSume that > if the drives are functional then it'll talk to a UDA50 or KDA50 without > further ado. They're both clean, inside and out, but were stacked sort > of willy-nilly on a cement floor when I found them. I don't know how > tough those Maxtors are, or even yet whether they autopark on power-down. I can't say for sure, but largish (capacity) 5.25" drives _should_ auto-park (parking was an issue for transporting < 100MB MFM drives, but later units usually got over it), and the beauty of MSCP is that you can just throw a drive on a controller and there's no host-side configuration. > If they work, it'll be a major improvement - power-wise, space-wise, > volume-wise, and noise-wise - over the RA60s I'm running now. :) Oh, yea. We had an RA60 at work, c. 1987. It was handy to be able to change packs to change the OS, but in practice, we virtually never did so. I received a short rack with a couple of RA60s in 2000, and haven't had occasion to power them on yet (I'd rather focus my energy on putting my RA70s to use - similar capacity, *much* less power). For that matter, I wouldn't mind finding an RA72 or two... size without the wallet-sucking motors. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 19:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -60.3 F (-51.3 C) Windchill -76.09 F (-60.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.8 kts Grid 065 Barometer 672.9 mb (10896. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 14:47:17 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <16760.22767.539000.480167@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200410220057.i9M0vVRq031924@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20041022194717.GD19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:57:31PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the right > name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. Whitesmith. We used the Whitesmith's C compiler for VMS extensively for data comm products at Software Results Corp... so extensively that we were also a 'reseller' to be able to provide it to our customers who ponied-up for a source license. Otherwise, they couldn't have recompiled our sources. Unfortunately for this thread, we used the DECUS C compiler for our RSTS products, not Whitesmith's, so I cannot offer any help in procuring anything for the PDP-11. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.5 F (-48.1 C) Windchill -65.90 F (-54.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2 kts Grid 061 Barometer 672.8 mb (10900. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 22 15:01:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1098475265.2739.52.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-10-22 at 19:44 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > C) Ohio is 12,000 miles from here. not if you dig a tunnel! :-) From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 22 15:00:15 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Flash ADC selection, or other approach? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004, Martin Bishop wrote: > wrt latency, not even asynchronous logic will give you ZERO LATENCY. And, > if I've understood the requirement correctly it is to acquire a finite block > of data at a constant rate without gaps; so latency is not a system level > requirement. You are of course correct, I was speaking casually, I meant no VARIABLE latency, or more precisely, no latency not easily correctable; zooming off to handle a foolish request from a timer or human or disk controller. There's of course latencies all over the damn place but they can be assumed to be constants and therefore cancel each other out or fixed in software (eg. sample to sample fixed skew). THen there's A/D aperture and other rot... From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 14:59:53 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom In-Reply-To: <200410221715.KAA11662@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410221715.KAA11662@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20041022195953.GF19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 10:15:29AM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Tony > I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. That is my experience with Commodore ROMs - 23xxx are mask- programmable, and 25xx and 27xx are various varieties of EPROMs (sometimes pin-compatible, frequently not). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 19:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.1 F (-47.9 C) Windchill -67.3 F (-55.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.4 kts Grid 064 Barometer 672.9 mb (10896. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 15:07:46 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <1098475265.2739.52.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> <1098475265.2739.52.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041022200746.GH19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 08:01:05PM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-10-22 at 19:44 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > C) Ohio is 12,000 miles from here. > > not if you dig a tunnel! Or fly direct - we route through LA and Christchurch, so it's further than the shortest path (which would be closer to 8,000 miles) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 20:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -67.40 F (-55.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.5 kts Grid 065 Barometer 673 mb (10892. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 15:10:01 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Excercising vintage items - was: Commodore 8010 IEEE-488Acoustic Modem ? In-Reply-To: <20041022015436.IGRO11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20041022015436.IGRO11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20041022201001.GI19386@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 09:54:39PM -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I don't *need* a serial port (I have a real one on my SuperPET) ... My point > is that I don't like to just put stuff on the shelf ... I like to get it > working. Fair enough. > >Sure. I even have a couple of devices that are handy for that - Telephone > >C.O. simulators... > > Thats no a problem for me - One of my main lines of "day" work these days is > the development of a small office PBX (www.talkswitch.com) which is very small > and easily portable (good for demos), and provides full switching etc. I also > do dial-up point-of-sale banking terminals, so I have lots of equipment to > simulate and monitor various phone line condition - not that it's really needed > to "make a call" to a demo BBS. Handy, but as you say, overkill for simulating a point-to-point POTS link. > Agree completely on "show and tell" - I also find it's > a great ice-breaker, I don't know how many people have come to the office > for meetings of one sort or another and almost immediately start talking > about seeing something on my site which was their first computer. Often > said meeting is followed by a trip to the basement to play with the toys. Fun. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 20:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -67.40 F (-55.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.5 kts Grid 065 Barometer 673 mb (10892. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From joe at barrera.org Fri Oct 22 15:28:44 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: South Pole. In-Reply-To: <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <41796D7C.3010807@barrera.org> John Allain wrote: > Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. What time zone is at > the South Pole? What time is it at the North and South Pole? Since lines of longitude converge at the North and South Pole, it's almost impossible (and very impractical) to determine which time zone you're in based on the longitude. Therefore, researchers in the Arctic and Antarctic regions of the earth usually use the time zone associated with their research stations. For example, since nearly all flights to Antarctica and the South Pole are from New Zealand, New Zealand time is the most commonly used time zone in Antarctica. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 22 15:29:34 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 17:44:32 PDT." <200410220044.i9M0iWt4031629@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200410222029.i9MKTZ9S031196@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C V1.2, is there >anything else/newer? > >I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E binaries. There was a version from Whitesmiths. I tried to get them to release it, and they were happy to, but the didn't have any copies - the tapes they had got somehow damaged or destroyed. If anyone has a copy, it would be a simple matter to get them to allow it to be distributed Having said that, I might have a copy on an old rsts backup tape. I don't run RSTS however (yet). I guess I can make a "simh" style tape image... time to fire up the vax. -brad From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Oct 22 15:33:47 2004 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23@zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom In-Reply-To: <200410221715.KAA11662@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410221715.KAA11662@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041022223326.03a6eca0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Dwight, not missing the discussion ;-) At 19:15 22-10-2004, you wrote: > >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be > >> really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 > >> eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to > make > > > >I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is > >otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your > >programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). > > > >-tony > > > >Hi Tony > I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. >The problem with the newer EPROM parts is that they do not >require pulsing of the programming voltage. Many programmers >simply leave the programming voltage high while reading or >verifying. This is real bad for mask parts. Also, most mask >parts use the programming voltage pin as another select. >This means that it may need to be in the opposite state that, >even a programmer that allows setting of the program voltage, >may not be in the right state to read. > Also, I think this fellow is off the list and doesn't realize >that he is talking to a list. I suspect he is missing our >conversations related to his issue. >Dwight From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 22 15:34:18 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:05:20 PDT." <5A972E9A-23F0-11D9-9179-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> Message-ID: <200410222034.i9MKYIV9032593@mwave.heeltoe.com> Mark Davidson wrote: >> >I may be wrong, but I don't remember Whitesmith's C being available for >CP/M oh boy. I scraped many an oxide ring off a 8" floppy running that compiler (and linker). I certainly ran on CP/M. And RSTS/E. -brad From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 22 14:15:46 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: arix 800 - last call Message-ID: <200410221515.47445.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I have one sitting in the garage is anyone interested in it? The drives have been pulled already. Also a bunch of communications stuff Cabletrom M8FND with modimm-4, cisco CRM-3E, TPRMIM-36, EMM-E6 Tylink 3250s Westell A90-311073 Noran Tel NT95008-sij Gandalf LDS120 InterLynx 3287-NNP CISCO 1000 lan extender model 1001 -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From wacarder at usit.net Fri Oct 22 15:48:22 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? References: <200410222029.i9MKTZ9S031196@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <001301c4b878$78ace6c0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >What C compilers exist for RSTS/E? I'm aware of DEC PDP-11 C V1.2, is there > >anything else/newer? > > > >I assume there is no way to get GCC to crank out RSTS/E binaries. > > There was a version from Whitesmiths. I tried to get them to release > it, and they were happy to, but the didn't have any copies - the tapes > they had got somehow damaged or destroyed. > > If anyone has a copy, it would be a simple matter to get them to allow > it to be distributed > > Having said that, I might have a copy on an old rsts backup tape. I > don't run RSTS however (yet). I guess I can make a "simh" style tape > image... time to fire up the vax. If you can get a tape image, I'm interested in a copy. I have a couple of functional RSTS/E PDP-11s. What versions of RSTS will this Whitesmith C run on? I also have my RSTS/E systems running in simh. Ashley From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 15:53:24 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:10 2005 Subject: South Pole. In-Reply-To: <41796D7C.3010807@barrera.org> References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <41796D7C.3010807@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20041022205324.GA32591@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 01:28:44PM -0700, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > John Allain wrote: > > > Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. What time zone is at > > the South Pole? > > > > What time is it at the North and South Pole? > > Since lines of longitude converge at the North and South Pole, it's > almost impossible (and very impractical) to determine which time zone > you're in based on the longitude. Yep... fanatical following of timezones would put different buildings at Pole on different times - not practical at all. > Therefore, researchers in the Arctic and Antarctic regions of the earth > usually use the time zone associated with their research stations. For > example, since nearly all flights to Antarctica and the South Pole are > from New Zealand, New Zealand time is the most commonly used time zone > in Antarctica. Exactly. Both McMurdo and Pole keep NZ time (including daylight savings!) The two stations represent well over 1,000 people in the summer (1,300?) and several hundred in the winter, the lion's share of the people here. The principal remains the same, even for Palmer Station (US) - no flights, but the boats come from Punta Arenas, Chile; so they are on Chilean time (and at one point, decades ago, were on Argentinian time when the boats came from there). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 20:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -69.2 F (-56.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.9 kts Grid 055 Barometer 673.2 mb (10884. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 22 15:56:59 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <200410222034.i9MKYIV9032593@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410222034.i9MKYIV9032593@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > Mark Davidson wrote: > >> > >I may be wrong, but I don't remember Whitesmith's C being available for > >CP/M On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Brad Parker wrote: > oh boy. I scraped many an oxide ring off a 8" floppy running that > compiler (and linker). I certainly ran on CP/M. And RSTS/E. It and ran ran -- the problem was it didn't appear to know when to stop! I've long forgotten the details, and we didn't use it much since it was so impractical. It had a lot of language limitations too if I recall, restrictions on the CP/M-80 implementation. ("We" was Microft Inc, Falmouth Mass, Tom Campbell and Debbie Orbach and Van Grabel, we did software consulting and projects.) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 15:58:22 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter) Message-ID: <200410222058.NAA11808@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 10:54:49PM -0400, John Allain wrote: >> Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. >> What time zone is at the South Pole? > >Well... the easy answer is "whichever one we want". > >In fact, the one we have selected is the one that matches where our flights >come from so it's easy to synchronize operations. That means NZST/NZDT, >since our flights come from McMurdo, and their flights come from Christchurch, >NZ (yes, we are at GMT+13 right now, and we _do_ observe daylight savings >time, even though the sun is up 24/7) > >-ethan > Hi Ethan Wouldn't you do daylights saving in the winter instead of the summer? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 16:09:28 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <200410222109.OAA11813@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I guess the next thing is to find a pinout for the 23512 to see if they have a select that is inverted that might need to be patched around to read on a standard programmer. Dwight >From: birs23@zeelandnet.nl > >Dwight, not missing the discussion ;-) > >At 19:15 22-10-2004, you wrote: > >> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> > >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question might be >> >> really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a 23512 >> >> eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to >> make >> > >> >I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is >> >otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your >> >programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). >> > >> >-tony >> > >> >>Hi Tony >> I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. >>The problem with the newer EPROM parts is that they do not >>require pulsing of the programming voltage. Many programmers >>simply leave the programming voltage high while reading or >>verifying. This is real bad for mask parts. Also, most mask >>parts use the programming voltage pin as another select. >>This means that it may need to be in the opposite state that, >>even a programmer that allows setting of the program voltage, >>may not be in the right state to read. >> Also, I think this fellow is off the list and doesn't realize >>that he is talking to a list. I suspect he is missing our >>conversations related to his issue. >>Dwight > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 16:11:35 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter) In-Reply-To: <200410222058.NAA11808@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410222058.NAA11808@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20041022211135.GA32628@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 01:58:22PM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Ethan > Wouldn't you do daylights saving in the winter instead > of the summer? Everybody does it in their summer, northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere... it's summer here *now*. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -71.40 F (-57.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 052 Barometer 673.3 mb (10880. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aek at spies.com Fri Oct 22 16:12:41 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? Message-ID: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> There was a version from Whitesmiths. I tried to get them to release it, and they were happy to, but the didn't have any copies - the tapes they had got somehow damaged or destroyed. If anyone has a copy, it would be a simple matter to get them to allow it to be distributed -- I've just put a version for RSX up at www.bitsavers.org/bits/dec/pdp11/magtapes/ 1 BLDECH.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 72 bytes [tape mark] 2 BUILD .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1038 bytes [tape mark] 3 BUILDI.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1108 bytes [tape mark] 4 BUILDR.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 904 bytes [tape mark] 5 C .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 228 bytes [tape mark] 6 CCC .BAS [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1222 bytes [tape mark] 7 CFPP .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 232 bytes [tape mark] 8 CHDR .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 532 bytes [tape mark] 9 CLIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 77824 bytes [tape mark] 10 CPM .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 8642 bytes [tape mark] 11 CRIGHT. [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1010 bytes [tape mark] 12 CTYPE .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 904 bytes [tape mark] 13 ECHO .C [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 824 bytes [tape mark] 14 ECHO .DOC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 898 bytes [tape mark] 15 END .MAC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 272 bytes [tape mark] 16 FCC .BAS [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1226 bytes [tape mark] 17 FHDR .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 536 bytes [tape mark] 18 FLIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 65536 bytes [tape mark] 19 HEX .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 7312 bytes [tape mark] 20 INSTAL.DOC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 6606 bytes [tape mark] 21 LBY .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 10002 bytes [tape mark] 22 LIMIT . [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1050 bytes [tape mark] 23 LINK .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 482 bytes [tape mark] 24 LNK .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 19966 bytes [tape mark] 25 LRD .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2832 bytes [tape mark] 26 MATH .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 248 bytes [tape mark] 27 MOVEMT.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 212 bytes [tape mark] 28 P1 .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 50160 bytes [tape mark] 29 P2 .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 46638 bytes [tape mark] 30 P2CONF.OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2714 bytes [tape mark] 31 PP .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 21094 bytes [tape mark] 32 REL .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 9328 bytes [tape mark] 33 RSX .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2480 bytes [tape mark] 34 SBREAK.MAC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 454 bytes [tape mark] 35 STD .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1740 bytes [tape mark] 36 STDIO .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1286 bytes [tape mark] 37 STDTYP.H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1392 bytes [tape mark] 38 TEST .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 308 bytes [tape mark] 39 TESTR .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 228 bytes [tape mark] 40 ULIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 23040 bytes [tape mark] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Oct 22 16:21:59 2004 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23@zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom In-Reply-To: <200410222109.OAA11813@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410222109.OAA11813@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041022232116.03a65b98@mail.zeelandnet.nl> You can find that here : http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/holtek/ht23c256.txt For a 27256 you can look here : http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/giicm/27512.txt Cheers, Stefan At 23:09 22-10-2004, you wrote: >Hi > I guess the next thing is to find a pinout for >the 23512 to see if they have a select that is inverted >that might need to be patched around to read on >a standard programmer. >Dwight > > >From: birs23@zeelandnet.nl > > > >Dwight, not missing the discussion ;-) > > > >At 19:15 22-10-2004, you wrote: > > > >> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Hi, > >> >> > >> >> I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question > might be > >> >> really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a > 23512 > >> >> eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to > >> make > >> > > >> >I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is > >> >otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your > >> >programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). > >> > > >> >-tony > >> > > >> > >>Hi Tony > >> I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. > >>The problem with the newer EPROM parts is that they do not > >>require pulsing of the programming voltage. Many programmers > >>simply leave the programming voltage high while reading or > >>verifying. This is real bad for mask parts. Also, most mask > >>parts use the programming voltage pin as another select. > >>This means that it may need to be in the opposite state that, > >>even a programmer that allows setting of the program voltage, > >>may not be in the right state to read. > >> Also, I think this fellow is off the list and doesn't realize > >>that he is talking to a list. I suspect he is missing our > >>conversations related to his issue. > >>Dwight > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 22 16:35:41 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: South Pole. In-Reply-To: <20041022185745.GA19386@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <20041022023419.HJY25820.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <014301c4b7e2$7f924200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20041022185745.GA19386@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <41797D2D.2050103@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 10:54:49PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > >>Hey, here's a semintelligent, if OT, question. >>What time zone is at the South Pole? > > > Well... the easy answer is "whichever one we want". > > In fact, the one we have selected is the one that matches where our flights > come from so it's easy to synchronize operations. That means NZST/NZDT, > since our flights come from McMurdo, and their flights come from Christchurch, > NZ (yes, we are at GMT+13 right now, and we _do_ observe daylight savings > time, even though the sun is up 24/7) I did a bunch of work last year for a client whose datacenter is in the Pacific time zone, but they're an online stockbroker, so all their servers and most of the desktops at the datacenter site are "3 hours off", to match Wall Street time. It was weird. I learned to account for it OK, but I never really got used to it. Doc From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Oct 22 16:39:36 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> References: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> Message-ID: <200410221439.36892.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Cool. Thanks, Al. Lyle On Friday 22 October 2004 14:12, Al Kossow wrote: > There was a version from Whitesmiths. I tried to get them to release > it, and they were happy to, but the didn't have any copies - the tapes > they had got somehow damaged or destroyed. > > If anyone has a copy, it would be a simple matter to get them to allow > it to be distributed > > -- > > I've just put a version for RSX up at > www.bitsavers.org/bits/dec/pdp11/magtapes/ 1 BLDECH.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> > Jan 0, 1970 72 bytes [tape mark] > 2 BUILD .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1038 bytes [tape mark] > 3 BUILDI.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1108 bytes [tape mark] > 4 BUILDR.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 904 bytes [tape mark] > 5 C .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 228 bytes [tape mark] > 6 CCC .BAS [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1222 bytes [tape mark] > 7 CFPP .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 232 bytes [tape mark] > 8 CHDR .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 532 bytes [tape mark] > 9 CLIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 77824 bytes [tape mark] > 10 CPM .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 8642 bytes [tape mark] > 11 CRIGHT. [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1010 bytes [tape mark] > 12 CTYPE .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 904 bytes [tape mark] > 13 ECHO .C [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 824 bytes [tape mark] > 14 ECHO .DOC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 898 bytes [tape mark] > 15 END .MAC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 272 bytes [tape mark] > 16 FCC .BAS [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1226 bytes [tape mark] > 17 FHDR .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 536 bytes [tape mark] > 18 FLIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 65536 bytes [tape mark] > 19 HEX .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 7312 bytes [tape mark] > 20 INSTAL.DOC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 6606 bytes [tape mark] > 21 LBY .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 10002 bytes [tape mark] > 22 LIMIT . [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1050 bytes [tape mark] > 23 LINK .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 482 bytes [tape mark] > 24 LNK .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 19966 bytes [tape mark] > 25 LRD .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2832 bytes [tape mark] > 26 MATH .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 248 bytes [tape mark] > 27 MOVEMT.CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 212 bytes [tape mark] > 28 P1 .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 50160 bytes [tape mark] > 29 P2 .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 46638 bytes [tape mark] > 30 P2CONF.OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2714 bytes [tape mark] > 31 PP .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 21094 bytes [tape mark] > 32 REL .OBJ [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 9328 bytes [tape mark] > 33 RSX .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 2480 bytes [tape mark] > 34 SBREAK.MAC [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 454 bytes [tape mark] > 35 STD .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1740 bytes [tape mark] > 36 STDIO .H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1286 bytes [tape mark] > 37 STDTYP.H [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 1392 bytes [tape mark] > 38 TEST .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 308 bytes [tape mark] > 39 TESTR .CMD [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 228 bytes [tape mark] > 40 ULIB .OLB [ 4, 1] <000> Jan 0, 1970 23040 bytes [tape mark] -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 22 16:40:55 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? References: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> Message-ID: <16761.32359.763372.979649@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Interesting -- DOS format magtape. 6.3 filenames... Some of the command files on that tape look like RSX ones, and some are RSTS ones. Makes sense; compilers and things like that built for RSX generally run just fine on RSTS (in RSX emulation). paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 22 16:46:50 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <20041022194717.GD19386@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 22, 2004 07:47:17 PM Message-ID: <200410222146.i9MLkohA028650@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:57:31PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the right > > name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E as well. > > Whitesmith. We used the Whitesmith's C compiler for VMS extensively for > data comm products at Software Results Corp... so extensively that we were > also a 'reseller' to be able to provide it to our customers who ponied-up > for a source license. Otherwise, they couldn't have recompiled our sources. > > Unfortunately for this thread, we used the DECUS C compiler for our RSTS > products, not Whitesmith's, so I cannot offer any help in procuring anything > for the PDP-11. > > -ethan I dug up my doc's this morning. Looks like I should have Whitesmith C and Pascal V2.2. It looks like they only supported RSTS/E in RSX mode. Therefore the only options are DEC C and DECUS C. Zane From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Oct 22 16:50:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <16761.32359.763372.979649@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> <16761.32359.763372.979649@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20041022215000.GE2924@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 05:40:55PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > Interesting -- DOS format magtape. 6.3 filenames... That has more to do with the use of RADIX-50 to store filenames on PDP-11 disks than anything that came out of Redmond (RAD-50 stores 3 uppercase chars in 16 bits, so it takes three words to store names as 6.3) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Oct-2004 21:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.7 F (-47.7 C) Windchill -66.90 F (-55 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.4 kts Grid 051 Barometer 673.5 mb (10872. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 22 17:00:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? References: <20041022194717.GD19386@bos7.spole.gov> <200410222146.i9MLkohA028650@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16761.33552.403622.877160@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:57:31PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I >> should have remembered DECUS C, I thought Watersmith (is that the >> right > name) or someone else might have had a version for RSTS/E >> as well. >> >> Whitesmith. We used the Whitesmith's C compiler for VMS >> extensively for data comm products at Software Results Corp... so >> extensively that we were also a 'reseller' to be able to provide >> it to our customers who ponied-up for a source license. >> Otherwise, they couldn't have recompiled our sources. >> >> Unfortunately for this thread, we used the DECUS C compiler for >> our RSTS products, not Whitesmith's, so I cannot offer any help in >> procuring anything for the PDP-11. >> >> -ethan Zane> I dug up my doc's this morning. Looks like I should have Zane> Whitesmith C and Pascal V2.2. It looks like they only Zane> supported RSTS/E in RSX mode. Therefore the only options are Zane> DEC C and DECUS C. Huh? It's possible to write applications that are "native RSTS" but I can't think of any example where this has been done. Runtime systems use native RSTS calls, but applications universally are either RT flavored (using the RT11 runtime system to run on RSTS) or RSX flavored (using the RSX runtime system or the kernel emulation in later RSTS versions). Either way, an application might also include the occasional RSTS native call, to do things that are outside the RT or RSX API, but that would only be a small increment on top of an otherwise RSX or RT application. If someone says "support RSTS/E in RSX mode" that means the programs run on the RSX runtime system on RSTS/E. If they say that much, it might mean that they actually handled those few spots where an unmodified plain RSX application behaves somewhat strangely in the RSTS RSX emulation. (I don't remember actual examples of that; RT emulation had some of these, but RT is more distant from RSTS in many ways, for example its file structure.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Oct 22 17:02:03 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? References: <20041022211241.AEE8E4046@spies.com> <16761.32359.763372.979649@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20041022215000.GE2924@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16761.33627.579.113139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 05:40:55PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> Interesting -- DOS format magtape. 6.3 filenames... Ethan> That has more to do with the use of RADIX-50 to store Ethan> filenames on PDP-11 disks than anything that came out of Ethan> Redmond (RAD-50 stores 3 uppercase chars in 16 bits, so it Ethan> takes three words to store names as 6.3) Sure. What I was getting at is that the RSX native file naming was 9.3, not 6.3. 6.3 is TOPS10, DOS-11, RT11, RSTS; but RSX (all flavors), IAS, and early VMS were all 9.3. paul From aek at spies.com Fri Oct 22 17:04:53 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? Message-ID: <20041022220453.A18D2403F@spies.com> What I was getting at is that the RSX native file naming was 9.3, not 6.3. -- It is a DOS-11 (FLX) tape. From rcini at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 17:14:51 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Altair hard disk system Message-ID: <000901c4b884$8e0bfa40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hello all: I found this on eBay today: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5133018533& rd=1 Does anyone have any information on this? This is the first time I've seen this unit. Maybe something to emulate... Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 22 17:31:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter) Message-ID: <200410222231.PAA11865@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 01:58:22PM -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi Ethan >> Wouldn't you do daylights saving in the winter instead >> of the summer? > >Everybody does it in their summer, northern hemisphere and southern >hemisphere... it's summer here *now*. > >-ethan > Hi Ethan Of course, your summer is different than mine. What was I thinking. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 22 18:02:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: <16761.33552.403622.877160@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Oct 22, 2004 06:00:48 PM Message-ID: <200410222302.i9MN2ZsR030942@onyx.spiritone.com> > If someone says "support RSTS/E in RSX mode" that means the programs > run on the RSX runtime system on RSTS/E. If they say that much, it > might mean that they actually handled those few spots where an Or that they couldn't think of the word 'runtime' as was the case here. > unmodified plain RSX application behaves somewhat strangely in the > RSTS RSX emulation. (I don't remember actual examples of that; RT > emulation had some of these, but RT is more distant from RSTS in many > ways, for example its file structure.) In this case I think it's a case of the C compiler spitting out an RSX app. I don't think Whitesmith C (at least the version I have really knows anything about RSTS/E). On a slightly interesting note, P/OS is mentioned separate from RSX. Zane From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Oct 22 18:03:42 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Multia's... Message-ID: <1098486222.13067.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Well, I finally have a true DEC bit of hardware in the form of a old DEC Multia VX40. (166Mhz Alpha, 64MB RAM, 3.5" floppy, 1GB SCSI) (Its almost properly on-topic from the dates I could find.) I've cleaned out the dust/cigarette smoke, and bought myself a little SCSI1->SCSI2 adapter so I can get the SCSI external. (As well as another 32Mb of memory while I was at it. - it was cheap - and there were empty SIMM slots) The original 1GB IBM SCSI drive appears to have been the victim of true sticktation. The drive started spinning after I whapped it a few times, so I don't trust it. I've got an 18G (Sun) external disk, and CD-ROM I can plug into it, and the intention is to install OpenVMS Alpha 7.3-1 on the thing. Anyone have an non-obvious words of wisdom before I start installing VMS onto it? (I gather getting VMS on a Multia isn't officially supported, and a bit of a trick. ) Thanks, David From george at rachors.com Fri Oct 22 18:21:10 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Altair hard disk system In-Reply-To: <000901c4b884$8e0bfa40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: Rich, and others.. I have a set of formatted disks from this era for the Altair but no hardware available. I saw the Altair emulator project. I'll someday either need to get real hardware or a way to get my diskettes imaged such that I can access their contents from the emulator. What does the emulator currently support in the way of disk images? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hello all: > > I found this on eBay today: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5133018533& > rd=1 > > Does anyone have any information on this? This is the first time > I've seen this unit. Maybe something to emulate... > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Oct 22 18:46:36 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:46:50 PDT." <200410222146.i9MLkohA028650@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200410222346.i9MNkahk003235@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >I dug up my doc's this morning. Looks like I should have Whitesmith C and >Pascal V2.2. It looks like they only supported RSTS/E in RSX mode. I may be wrong, but that's not what I remember. I think I would remember having to run the task builder (tkb) and I don't. I think I just linked and ran. I could swear I used some sort of rt-11 style setup under rsts with the whitesmith's compiler. (but that was a while ago, and many wine bottles have passed since then :-) -brad From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 22 20:16:26 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <4178582B.5070105@mdrconsult.com> <20041022194444.GC19386@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <4179B0EA.5010704@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 05:45:31PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Could be. I think these might have been the cans in a full-wide >>shelf, too. The bridge board is about 8" x 12", and sits above the PSU, >>with the ESDI drives sitting sideways in the enclosure in front of that. > > > Hmm... that size sounds different than the one I have - my memory is > a card that is square and about 8" on a side. Well, that's based on the 5-minute inspection outside the thrift where I got 'em. :) I'm hoping to have time to get board numbers and snapshots this weekend. Maybe even see how they run. >>>Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. >> >> Awww, c'mon, Ethan! Just trot out to the garage and have a look! > > > A) It's in the basement > > B) The basement is in Ohio > > C) Ohio is 12,000 miles from here. I know, I know! I *knew* I shoulda put a smiley there! BTW, I turned my spousal equivalent on to your McMurdo pages and she's a huge fan now. > I can't say for sure, but largish (capacity) 5.25" drives _should_ auto-park > (parking was an issue for transporting < 100MB MFM drives, but later units > usually got over it), and the beauty of MSCP is that you can just throw a > drive on a controller and there's no host-side configuration. Exactly. >> If they work, it'll be a major improvement - power-wise, space-wise, >>volume-wise, and noise-wise - over the RA60s I'm running now. :) > > > Oh, yea. We had an RA60 at work, c. 1987. It was handy to be able to > change packs to change the OS, but in practice, we virtually never did > so. I received a short rack with a couple of RA60s in 2000, and haven't > had occasion to power them on yet (I'd rather focus my energy on putting > my RA70s to use - similar capacity, *much* less power). I do actually swap packs a lot in the RA60 attached to my 11/84. One for BSD, one for RT-11, etc. > For that matter, I wouldn't mind finding an RA72 or two... size without > the wallet-sucking motors. I have 2 RA81s I've never even tested. One's probably trash - it came in the lot with the RA60s, and none of the RA60s had the heads locked down. Sooner or later I'll check, but I'm betting the RA81 isn't parked. And the specced power budget on that pup is about twice that of the RA60. FOURTEEN AMPS just to spin up???? Jeeze. Doc From rcini at optonline.net Fri Oct 22 20:44:13 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Altair hard disk system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c4b8a1$cd7d4180$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> George: The emulator presently supports two formats using only an emulated 88-DSK controller. First is the base Altair disk format with a capacity of about 337k. This format is also used for CP/M 2.2 (although the sector size is different). The second is a special 1mb "large disk" CP/M format. The project screams for a hard drive setup but there were very few at the time. So, that's why we came up with the 1mb large disk CP/M format. Rich -----Original Message----- From: George Leo Rachor Jr. [mailto:george@rachors.com] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:21 PM To: rcini@optonline.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair hard disk system Rich, and others.. I have a set of formatted disks from this era for the Altair but no hardware available. I saw the Altair emulator project. I'll someday either need to get real hardware or a way to get my diskettes imaged such that I can access their contents from the emulator. What does the emulator currently support in the way of disk images? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Hello all: > > I found this on eBay today: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5133018533& > rd=1 > > Does anyone have any information on this? This is the first time > I've seen this unit. Maybe something to emulate... > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From gtoal at gtoal.com Fri Oct 22 22:12:38 2004 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) Message-ID: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> > Interesting -- DOS format magtape. 6.3 filenames... > Some of the command files on that tape look like RSX ones, and some > are RSTS ones. Makes sense; compilers and things like that built for > RSX generally run just fine on RSTS (in RSX emulation). Which reminds me... students at Groningen University wrote a multi-tasking system for the PDP that was loosely based on EMAS (big mainframe system from Edinburgh, sort of like Multics but better). I remember one feature of the OS was that it used an RT-11 format disk structure for raw storage even though the user view of files was quite different. For example I think RT-11 had version numbers (in the style of VMS), but GUTS showed only the top-level file, and had a "pop" command which deleted the most recent file and made the version below it visible. The source is lost (though we do have a disk pack which *may* contain the OS, if it is still readable) but a scan of the three-book report is available online: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/ - Orange is the users guide; Red - system design; Yellow - selected source listings. Edinburgh was also fairly big on PDP11's, having written a few operating systems for it. The british networking operations ran on PDP11's for years, on an O/S called DEIMOS. (Binary disk images online at http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/deimos/ ; sources also at http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/deimos/ - the binaries ought to work in an emulator; I haven't tried them myself) Deimos was also used for the front-end terminal servers at Edinburgh, and as the basis of the Edinburgh Remote Terminal Emulator (ERTE) which submitted jobs as if they were typed by remote users, to do accurate performance monitoring without the Heisenberg interaction of measuring the performance on the system itself. This has no relation to the 'fuzzball' arpanet routers, written by David Mills (of NTP fame) who was also at Edinburgh at the time. Another PDP/11 O/S was "MUSS". There's a manual page for it here: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/emas-2900/docum_mmanual.txt I think the sources of MUSS along with the FEP's and ERTE are in that directory somewhere too. DEIMOS, MUSS, ERTE and the FEPs were written by Brian Gilmore, now head of the Computing Service. Ian Young wrote an operating system for the PDP-11 called "rats" as a student project - I believe he has a paper listing which we might have scanned some day. That was the first implementation of lightweight threads that I remember seeing. All the Edinburgh software was written in Imp, except for a few assembler parts, but we had our own assembler for it as well: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/emas-2900/asst11j.txt There were two compilers for the system; one written by the ERCC based on a simpler bootstrapping compiler called "SKIMP" - http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp11-tmp/imp11/sk11v.imp ... and a later one written by the Computer Science department for the Imp77 language: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm11/emas-a/imp119s/ (and a very early version of the above, we think: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/languages/imp11-tmp/earlyimp11/ ) There's a good writeup of the pdp-11 imp compiler optimisations here: http://www.gtoal.com/athome/edinburgh/imp/PDP11IMP.htm Graham From dittman at dittman.net Fri Oct 22 21:24:26 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <1098486222.13067.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> from "David Holland" at Oct 22, 2004 07:03:42 PM Message-ID: <20041023022426.502CB7A4EF@dittman.net> > Well, I finally have a true DEC bit of hardware in the form of a old DEC > Multia VX40. (166Mhz Alpha, 64MB RAM, 3.5" floppy, 1GB SCSI) > ... > Anyone have an non-obvious words of wisdom before I start installing VMS > onto it? > > (I gather getting VMS on a Multia isn't officially supported, and a bit > of a trick. ) VMS is not supported. There is a patch kit that allows you to install VMS, but V7.2 was the last version the patch kit supported. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Oct 23 04:12:02 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> A short update on my efforts ... The Fujitsu-OnRack version did what was to be expected: it checks and sees that there is no Fujitsu drive in the PC and stops :-) Sorry to say that the version from Pete is for Western Digital drives and shows the same behaviour :-( I found a gfew manufacturer versions, but not for HP &%$#@!& However, there is till hope at 2 fronts: the version Dave will dig up, and there is one on auction at eBay (for just a few $$). If I will be the lucky winner I will share the data on the disk with everybody that is interested in a copy. It looks like this is an *original* OnTrack version that works with drives of any manufacturer. It's version 7 ... I'll report back later. thanks for all the help, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 22-10-2004 17:55 Subject: Re: access to BIOS of DECpc Apologies, I didn't get a chance to look for my OnTrack Disk Manager software last night. I'll definitely dig it up this weekend... Gooijen H wrote: > Hi all, > > thanks for all the responses, I have some leads now. > Here is a report what I tried so far. > Searching the Internet, I found the setup files set320p and pwr320p for > the DECpc 320P. Alas, the setup allows several items to be configured, > but the hard disk is not one of them! > Next, I found Ontrack DiskManager versions for IBM and for Microscience, > but the IBM version stops because it does not detect a hard disk of their > brand. BTW, my 2.5" hard disk is from HP, type C2965A. > The Microscience version allows 7 different types to be set, but up till > now I did not get satisfactory results. I can get to 50 Mb, but compared > to the original hard disk (40Mb) that is not much gain, especially when > you think that the C2965A is 420 Mb ...! > > I also have the version from Western Digital, EZ-Drive (Data Lifeguard) > but this version also stops because the disk is not from WD. > Not yet tried is a version from Fujitsu, and the version I received from > Pete (thanks Pete!). > I guess it's clear what I will be doing this weekend :-) > > thanks for all the help and advice, > - Henk, PA8PDP. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 23 05:10:42 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) In-Reply-To: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023053502.02c7f750@192.168.0.1> At 11:12 PM 10/22/2004, Graham wrote: >I think RT-11 had version numbers (in the style of VMS), but GUTS >showed only the top-level file, and had a "pop" command which deleted >the most recent file and made the version below it visible. > >The source is lost (though we do have a disk pack which *may* contain >the OS, if it is still readable) but a scan of the three-book report >is available online: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/guts/ - >Orange is the users guide; Red - system design; Yellow - selected >source listings. > > >Another PDP/11 O/S was "MUSS". There's a manual page for it >here: >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/emas-2900/docum_mmanual.txt > >I think the sources of MUSS along with the FEP's and ERTE are in >that directory somewhere too. DEIMOS, MUSS, ERTE and the FEPs >were written by Brian Gilmore, now head of the Computing Service. > >Ian Young wrote an operating system for the PDP-11 called "rats" >as a student project - I believe he has a paper listing which we >might have scanned some day. That was the first implementation >of lightweight threads that I remember seeing. > >All the Edinburgh software was written in Imp, except for a few >assembler parts, but we had our own assembler for it as well: >http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/users/ercm09/emas-2900/asst11j.txt > >There were two compilers for the system; one written by the ERCC >based on a simpler bootstrapping compiler called "SKIMP" - Though my wife likes RT11, I think she would draw the line at a MUSS of Red, Orange and Yellow lmp rats GUTS. RT11 file structure didn't have version numbers. Didn't even keep time of creation, just a single date. No attributes either, except RO in later versions. Just 1 directory for entire disk. There were a few words available in each directory file entry for user applications. Big thing: files had to be contiguous. As files were deleted they made free spaces. New files could only be as large as the largest free space on a disk. Had to compress (squeeze) the file structure periodically to consolidate all the free spaces. My wife, before we were married, used that to set the hook in me. She was a Dibol programmer who had graduated from programming on a PDP 8/A to a PDP 11/34. I was the geek upstairs building M6800 tape readers and programming them with the ASR33. No command language in those days, RT11 V2c was strictly command line. Dibol compiler had a /S switch to suppress data division summary in source listing. PIP /S was used to squeeze the disk. Dibol would let you use ^C to stop the program and source listing. That was accepted practice. PIP would let you use ^C to abort it in the middle of rewriting your disk directory. That was definitely NOT good practice. Girl comes crying into room, "I did PIP/S and not DICOMP/S and ^C'd and I've lost all my work!!!". (Don't you just love it when they talk like that!) Geek boy helps pretty programmer recover data, gets big kiss, etc. etc. Yup, RT11 was definitely useful despite it's limitations. I doubt she'd have hung around long enough for us to meet if she'd had to work on a MUSS of lmp rats GUTS. :-) Ed K. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Oct 22 22:57:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Gooijen H wrote: > A short update on my efforts ... > The Fujitsu-OnRack version did what was to be expected: it checks and > sees that there is no Fujitsu drive in the PC and stops :-) > Sorry to say that the version from Pete is for Western Digital drives > and shows the same behaviour :-( > I found a gfew manufacturer versions, but not for HP &%$#@!& > However, there is till hope at 2 fronts: the version Dave will dig up, > and there is one on auction at eBay (for just a few $$). If I will be > the lucky winner I will share the data on the disk with everybody that > is interested in a copy. It looks like this is an *original* OnTrack > version that works with drives of any manufacturer. It's version 7 ... > I'll report back later. Maybe this is a dumb suggestion, in which case I invite folks to throw pies at me while I'm stripped down nekkid (note: I might like it), but what about using a boot manager instead? Would it not accomplish the same thing? To that end, this looks promising: http://www.masterbooter.com/main/news.php?lang=en ...or this one... http://www.softpedia.com/public/cat/13/4/13-4-14.shtml -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 23 07:48:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: Gooijen H "RE: access to BIOS of DECpc" (Oct 23, 11:12) References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <10410231348.ZM11093@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23 2004, 11:12, Gooijen H wrote: > A short update on my efforts ... > The Fujitsu-OnRack version did what was to be expected: it checks and > sees that there is no Fujitsu drive in the PC and stops :-) > Sorry to say that the version from Pete is for Western Digital drives > and shows the same behaviour :-( Oops, wrong one. Sorry, Henk. I *do* have a plain version, somewhere, that works with Seagate and Toshiba disks (and presumably others, as it seems to be a non-specific OnTrack version, V.7.09). I've sent another copy to you. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 23 09:44:51 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041023094338.108355f0@pc> At 10:57 PM 10/22/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >To that end, this looks promising: >http://www.masterbooter.com/main/news.php?lang=en On its utility page, there is 'mrfloppy', a raw image of a boot floppy to start the boot loader. Could be handy, could've saved my bacon a week ago. - John P.S. What flavor pie? From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 23 09:36:41 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: SpinRite? In-Reply-To: <41786964.6060905@mdrconsult.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041021191934.11b48918@pc> <41786964.6060905@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041023092258.1274fcb0@pc> At 08:59 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: > I've used it to good effect in getting data off failing disks. I never considered using it to extend the life of a disk that's failing. To me, that feels like trying to get one last drink of the soured milk. Yes, of course. But SpinRite also makes me wrinkle my nose: it seems potentially tremendously valuable for its recovery skills of marginal data, but why on Earth does it want to re-write back to the same media? Why not recover to another file or disk? It violates the Hippocratic oath of data recovery: at least do no harm. Recovering data from an old disk means the risk of putting the media in a drive, but that's small in my mind with the risk (or sense) of trying to write back to it. Am I missing some feature in the SpinRite interface that would let me recover data to a second disk? >The only time SpinRite didn't do me any good at all was when the luser with the bad hard drive, after being advised to shut it down till I got back in town, got antsy and ran MS-DOS Scandisk on it about 20 times. We didn't get much data back. I had that a few months ago, too. When I'm called in to fix a minor software problem on someone's computer, I rarely make a full backup before I touch it. It's a cost issue, a time issue, a practical issue. I fixed this fellow's problems, demonstrated to him several times that the system would reboot, warm and cold, without error. Two hours after I left, he had an error on shutdown. On restart, Scandisk ran, found an error, and he answered "no" when it asked to fix the error. Presto, scragged hard disk. 50 megs of email lost. In this case, I had backed-up his email to a zip file but put it on the hard disk. He had no other backup. He'd never made one. I spent another ten hours out of guilt on my dime to attempt to recover his data with R-Studio www.r-studio.com . No go. The zip was gone, the mailbox was gone. Who's at fault? I know that if I pulled out of the car repair shop, drove ten miles and the engine fell out, I'd blame the repair shop. I've spent a hundreds of dollars on tools for data recovery: DriveCopy, Partition Magic, Ghost, R-Studio, SpinRite... but none is a Swiss army knife, and I've got gripes about each. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Oct 23 10:12:52 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Does anyone know anything about 1/2" tape cleaners? I remember (I think) seeing a device in the tape library of the giant insurance company I once worked for. This device, if I remember correctly looked like an audio open reel tape deck but would take a 1/2" (9-track style) tape reel on one side and had a take-up reel on the other. If I remember correctly the tape passed over a "spinning wheel" which had slots in it. I think this wheel would "clean" the tape. It's all a bit hazy now, but I think this device was used to clean and re-tention 9-track 1/2" tapes. (the # of tracks does not matter, but I say that to give the proper context). Anyone know of these, have one, know of one, or if they work and are safe? I have some (well, many) 9-track tapes which were stored in a very poor (read humid) environment. The look like they have mildew on them. I'd like to try cleaning and re-tensioning one and, after baking, see if it will read. Seems like one of these devices would come in handy. Any experience? -brad From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Oct 23 10:17:53 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) Message-ID: <0410231517.AA04150@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Ed Kelleher wrote: > My wife, before we were married, used that to set the hook in me. > [...] > Girl comes crying into room, "I did PIP/S and not DICOMP/S and ^C'd and > I've lost all my work!!!". > (Don't you just love it when they talk like that!) > Geek boy helps pretty programmer recover data, gets big kiss, etc. etc. That is soooooooo sweet! Once again proves that not ALL women are Weendoze pee sea lusers, there DO exist ClassicCmp-friendly and even ClassicCmp-appreciative ones if you take the time to seek one out and don't settle for less than what you really deserve. "Kto vesel, tot smeetsya, kto hochet, tot dob'etsya, kto ischet, tot vsegda najdet!" -MS, who is in the process of preparing the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus version of the Berkeley UNIX manuals for his new girlfriend. She worked as a UNIX sysadmin for 10 years but could use a refresher, and it's always good to have a manual that corresponds exactly to what's actually running. From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Oct 23 10:18:16 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335D@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041023110301.04ef2cc8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Gooijen H wrote: > > > A short update on my efforts ... > > The Fujitsu-OnRack version did what was to be expected: it checks and > > sees that there is no Fujitsu drive in the PC and stops :-) > > Sorry to say that the version from Pete is for Western Digital drives > > and shows the same behaviour :-( > > I found a gfew manufacturer versions, but not for HP &%$#@!& > > However, there is till hope at 2 fronts: the version Dave will dig up, > > and there is one on auction at eBay (for just a few $$). If I will be > > the lucky winner I will share the data on the disk with everybody that > > is interested in a copy. It looks like this is an *original* OnTrack > > version that works with drives of any manufacturer. It's version 7 ... > > I'll report back later. > >Maybe this is a dumb suggestion, in which case I invite folks to throw >pies at me while I'm stripped down nekkid (note: I might like it), If you're talking Lemon Meringue fresh outta the oven, I doubt you'd like it (well, not for *long*, anyway! :-O )... >... but >what about using a boot manager instead? Would it not accomplish the same >thing? Noper, two totally different critters. Boot managers just *replaces* the standard MBR with a customizable MBR so you can boot multiple OSs. It has nothing to do WRT disk geometry or sizes. Linux's Grub is a good example. (LILO can do it too, but it's a little less forgiving of other operating systems.) Even Winders NT/2K/XP boot manager can be twiddled enough to boot Linux, tho it's *not* easy to do. Individual partitions are easily accessible from other OSs as the geometry is still derived from the BIOS/HD itself. OTOH, OnTrack (and others) actually "off-shift" the MBR and add a "pre-loader" which adds a BIOS patch to give the BIOS the ability to recognize larger HDs, or HDs with odd geometries. Then once it loads, the off-shifted MBR is then called and the computer can boot normally. If this BIOS patch is *not* loaded first, then the computer cannot accurately recognize the HD geometry, partition sizes or locations, etc. On the plus side, it's *very* handy every time an idiot PeeCee manufacturer decides to hard-code YADAHDL (that's "Yet Another DumbAss Hard Drive Limitation... ;-) -- First 32Meg, then 528 Meg, then 2Gig, then 8 Gig, then 80Gig, then 127Gig, and I'm sure there's others in between I've forgotten. This code allows a computer with a 528-Meg BIOS limitation (or older computer who's BIOS doesn't have customizable entries) to utilize larger HDs. On the minus side - He who uses this software had better take care on having a good backup plan in place that does not require this software! As the geometry's been "jumbled" to make it work in that environment, if you yank the drive & put it in another machine, the partitions won't be recognized or anything. With OnTrack and some others, you *could* set up a boot floppy with the special code so another machine (if booted from this floppy) could read the partitions & whatnot, but guaranteed, as soon as you need that floppy, you won't be able to find it... ;-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger So what kinda pie do you want, Sellam? ;^> -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From dholland at woh.rr.com Sat Oct 23 10:27:30 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <20041023022426.502CB7A4EF@dittman.net> References: <20041023022426.502CB7A4EF@dittman.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Eric Dittman wrote: > > (I gather getting VMS on a Multia isn't officially supported, and a bit > > of a trick. ) > > VMS is not supported. There is a patch kit that allows you to install VMS, but > V7.2 was the last version the patch kit supported. That I know.. I also found a link that implies the patch kit for 7.2 works for 7.3 as well. (At least on this guy's hardware.) http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~kujala/vms-in-axppci33.txt If it turns out that I can't get 7.3-1 running, anyone know where I can get ahold of a image of 7.2? (Its not like I can buy it from Montagar) David > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 23 10:35:46 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: from "David Holland" at Oct 23, 2004 11:27:30 AM Message-ID: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> > > > (I gather getting VMS on a Multia isn't officially supported, and a bit > > > of a trick. ) > > > > VMS is not supported. There is a patch kit that allows you to install VMS, but > > V7.2 was the last version the patch kit supported. > > That I know.. I also found a link that implies the patch kit for 7.2 works > for 7.3 as well. (At least on this guy's hardware.) > > http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~kujala/vms-in-axppci33.txt Interesting. The Multia is so slow that I ran 7.2 on mine only to see that it worked. > If it turns out that I can't get 7.3-1 running, anyone know where I can > get ahold of a image of 7.2? (Its not like I can buy it from Montagar) You might want to think about buying an inexpensive Alpha that is supported, like a DEC 3000 or an Alphastation 200. That way you won't have to use the unsupported patch kit. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 23 10:40:55 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: Need URL for Download O fTV Show Message-ID: <006201c4b916$b0c6e3a0$4b406b43@66067007> By mistake I deleted the message that had the URL for downloading the G4TechTV's The Screen Savers TV show with Sellam, does anyone remember what it was? I have downloaded the BitTorrent client to view it with. Thanks From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 23 10:44:24 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <20041023154424.0ECCA40A5@spies.com> > Does anyone know anything about 1/2" tape cleaners? -- Yes, they do pretty much what you describe. The problem is they used consumable cleaning strips which have been unobtainium for at least 15 years. From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 23 10:53:16 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: When I ran the tape library at calma we had one of those, only mine would run the tape over a razor blade to scrape off junk, and would record and playback an analog signal looking for dropouts. It had counters that recorded tape faults and would print out a strip of addingmachinepaper with a report on the reel. More than a certain number of dropouts, we scavenge the write ring and reel cover and toss the tape. On Oct 23, 2004, at 8:12 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about 1/2" tape cleaners? > > I remember (I think) seeing a device in the tape library of the giant > insurance company I once worked for. > > This device, if I remember correctly looked like an audio open reel > tape deck > but would take a 1/2" (9-track style) tape reel on one side and had a > take-up > reel on the other. > > If I remember correctly the tape passed over a "spinning wheel" which > had slots in it. I think this wheel would "clean" the tape. > > It's all a bit hazy now, but I think this device was used to clean and > re-tention 9-track 1/2" tapes. (the # of tracks does not matter, but I > say > that to give the proper context). > > Anyone know of these, have one, know of one, or if they work and are > safe? > > I have some (well, many) 9-track tapes which were stored in a very poor > (read humid) environment. The look like they have mildew on them. I'd > like to try cleaning and re-tensioning one and, after baking, see if it > will read. > > Seems like one of these devices would come in handy. > > Any experience? > > -brad > From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 23 11:12:22 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> At 11:12 AM 10/23/2004, you wrote: >Does anyone know anything about 1/2" tape cleaners? Like this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25402&item=3847826341&rd=1 Has "clean" and "strip" buttons on it. Speaking of tapes, anyone have a few extra write rings? If so, please let me know off-list. Thanks, Ed K. From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Oct 23 11:20:27 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: A possible suggestion: "Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - there's a couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 and that's about half too much - but there are plenty of the Cipher 880s, HP and M4 Data drives out there. From my meager knowledge of media rescue, restoration, etc: If the tape is moldy, the first thing would be to bake it dry, in a very slow oven, at about 120 - 140 F and no more, until all of the residual moisture has been driven off. Maybe three or four hours, with the tape out of it's case, natch. Now, inspect the tape by hand, carefully unspooling it until you get to the affected portions. The mold should have been reduced to powder and spores by now. There are a few species of mold that secrete acidic compounds, and a smaller set of these can adversely affect the binders and/or the backing. Chck for discoloration, or degradation of the tape. If you can blow, or gently brush off, the mold residue, and the tape is left shiny and good-looking, then the next step would be to load it into an old tape machine and do a read-to-EOT and rewind. This will naturally make a mess, and I have resorted to raising the top cover, defeating the interlocks, and fixing the hose of a vacuum cleaner near the saphire cleaning knife and headstack, to pull in all the Gunk. Obviously DON'T do this with a machine that needs to be maintained in a good running state, because it definitely get crap all over everything. If you vacuum it up while it's spooling, then you can avoid most of this. If the tape has been physically damaged, either by loose packing or if the mold or bacteria has eaten into the tape, then it can be cleaned with a cloth pad soaked in a mild soap solution and water... many of the 'green' cleaners, either mint or orange, are good for this. You have to spool the tape from the reel, while passing it through the cleaning pad, (which you must check often and re-fold to present a new cleaning surface) and then just let it flow into a tub of clean water. I have spooled tape out into a plastic garbage container full of about 20 gallons of tap water. [If your water is 'hard', like mine is where I live now, you have to be quick with the drying step afterward] NOW - you have to dry it while re-spooling it. I've used a hair dryer and one of those heat-guns for this. It's very labor-intensive, especially rewinding the tape AND getting it to pack properly. If this process is successful, then you can place it on the machine and do the usual FF->EOT and rewind to retension it. Of course, the relative value of the data vs. the amount of pain and suffering you wish to subject yourself to, is a factor in deciding what to keep and what to chuck.... Cheers John From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Oct 23 11:24:26 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 11:12 AM 10/23/2004, you wrote: >> Does anyone know anything about 1/2" tape cleaners? > > Like this one? > And you guys all hate eBay.... ;} That's precisely the device that the original poster wants - and cheap too... $50. Chees Jhn From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Oct 23 11:32:26 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Oct 2004 12:12:22 EDT." <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200410231632.i9NGWQXt009259@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ed Kelleher wrote: > >Like this one? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25402&item=3847826341&r >d=1 Wow. ok. now promise you won't bid! :-) -brad From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Oct 23 11:32:42 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: OT PCI token ring adapters available Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435C24@mail.catcorner.org> I have 4 Olicom OC-3137 cards available for $3 plus shipping (for the lot, not each). Or, make an offer if $3 sounds like too much. Shipping would be from New Jersey, USA. I will ship them anywhere you're willing to pay for. They are Token-Ring PCI/II 16/4 Adapters. I don't know many people that could use these so I thought I would offer them to the list. For drivers and other info see: http://www.olicom.com:8080/index.asp?item=947 First come, first serve. Kelly From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 23 11:57:35 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <200410231632.i9NGWQXt009259@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023125547.0299a668@192.168.0.1> At 12:32 PM 10/23/2004, you wrote: >Wow. ok. now promise you won't bid! :-) It's been listed before. I'm easy - promise I won't bid. Though thinking of the hours of fun I could have cleaning my 6 tapes makes me wonder. Got write rings? :-) Ed K. From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 23 11:59:12 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <20041023165912.4CBEA40AB@spies.com> > >Like this one? That is a certifier. It reads and writes on the tape. http://www.datadev.com/mark350.html is more like what he is looking for, although I wouldn't trust a tape in poor condition on something that spun at 350 ips. From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 23 12:02:32 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:11 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> "Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - there's a couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 and that's about half too much - but there are plenty of the Cipher 880s, HP and M4 Data drives out there. -- I'll take every M4 9914 you can find for $25... 880's are a dime a dozen. M4's are not. d From Pres at macro-inc.com Sat Oct 23 12:04:15 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023130153.02c76f70@192.168.0.1> At 12:24 PM 10/23/2004, you wrote: > And you guys all hate eBay.... ;} Reminds me of the line Tom Sellek had in "Quigley Down Under" speaking of revolvers: "Said I didn't favor 'em, never said I couldn't use one." Ed K. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Oct 23 12:39:31 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) References: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <16762.38739.955526.537632@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Graham" == Graham Toal writes: >> Interesting -- DOS format magtape. 6.3 filenames... Some of the >> command files on that tape look like RSX ones, and some are RSTS >> ones. Makes sense; compilers and things like that built for RSX >> generally run just fine on RSTS (in RSX emulation). Graham> Which reminds me... students at Groningen University wrote a Graham> multi-tasking system for the PDP that was loosely based on Graham> EMAS (big mainframe system from Edinburgh, sort of like Graham> Multics but better). I remember one feature of the OS was Graham> that it used an RT-11 format disk structure for raw storage Graham> even though the user view of files was quite different. For Graham> example I think RT-11 had version numbers (in the style of Graham> VMS), but GUTS showed only the top-level file, and had a Graham> "pop" command which deleted the most recent file and made the Graham> version below it visible. Not RT11... perhaps you're thinking of that modified system? Sounds a bit like a project I did at the University of Illinois modifying RT11. It didn't get completely finished but it worked... Changed the USR to a collection of overlays (not one big overlay). Changed the file system to allow non-contiguous files while stilll being very efficient -- roughly speaking a RT11 style fast and skinny variant of ODS-1. Named directories, but no extension file headers; LBAs limited to 2^16. I still have the sources at least on paper. The overlay stuff required some assembler hacks, to make the overlays PIC. Basically, a feature to say "this code loads at X but executes at Y". There was partial support for that, as a hidden feature, in the older Macro-11 sources but it needed work to make it flexible enough. Some other systems offered that sort of thing standard (CDC 6000s for example -- and GNU Binutils too, for that matter). paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Oct 23 13:20:42 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> References: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> Message-ID: <417AA0FA.5050302@mdrconsult.com> Eric Dittman wrote: >>If it turns out that I can't get 7.3-1 running, anyone know where I can >>get ahold of a image of 7.2? (Its not like I can buy it from Montagar) > > > You might want to think about buying an inexpensive Alpha that is supported, > like a DEC 3000 or an Alphastation 200. That way you won't have to use the > unsupported patch kit. Or grow old waiting on it to do something. Doc From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 13:35:58 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fujitsu M2294p drives & interfaces In-Reply-To: <001201c4b48b$a9552580$6502a8c0@internetrechner> References: <001201c4b48b$a9552580$6502a8c0@internetrechner> Message-ID: Folks, Another fat SMD, Eagle like drive on ebay : FUJITSU LIMITED FIXED DISK UNIT # M2294K ~VERY NICE! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5132599282 I think the seller is in Sanford, Florida. Stephane On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:55:39 +0200, Andreas Klein wrote: > Hello, > > I buy a M2294P at Ebay Germany. > > Do you know something about this HDD? > > Capacy or something. > > Sorry for my bad english. > > THX > Andreas > -- Stephane Paris, France. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 13:46:59 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> References: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> Message-ID: <26c11a64041023114652deab74@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:35:46 -0500 (CDT), Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > (I gather getting VMS on a Multia isn't officially supported, and a bit > > > > of a trick. ) > > > > > > VMS is not supported. There is a patch kit that allows you to install VMS, but > > > V7.2 was the last version the patch kit supported. > > > > That I know.. I also found a link that implies the patch kit for 7.2 works > > for 7.3 as well. (At least on this guy's hardware.) > > > > http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~kujala/vms-in-axppci33.txt > > Interesting. The Multia is so slow that I ran 7.2 on mine only to see that it > worked. > How slow is it. I would of thought a 166 alpha would be a lot faster then a vaxstation. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:59:36 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: HP Apollo 400t machines & software Message-ID: <1098557976.4159.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Any Apollo users out there? A chap dropped off a couple of Apollo 400t machines at the museum today (circa 1990 vintage) with numerous manuals. First time I've seen one in years - I remember a room full of them at uni behind a glass partition wall, not usable by us mere mortals, and always wanted to get hold of one since then. Initial questions from the 5 minutes I had free today to actually *look* at the things (damnit!): Anyone (hopefully in the UK!) got a spare Domain keyboard? Both machines work, but only came with the one keyboard :-( I have a feeling the chances of finding one are something like zero... Anyone got install media preserved anywhere? (We've got a backup CD, plus I'll image the hard disks - but a copy of proper install media would be nice) How's the Apollo token ring network physically configured? Presumably something somewhere needs to bias the line at the very least? (We got a cable with each machine that brings the card connector out to a pair of BNC plugs) Any idea what tape drive the systems used (I've seen reference to optional tape drive in the manuals) and if it was just a SCSI device on the bus, or whether it used a custom controller? Any other UK people got any more Apollo stuff they no longer want? ;-) cheers! Jules From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Oct 23 13:56:14 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <26c11a64041023114652deab74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dan Williams wrote: > > Interesting. The Multia is so slow that I ran 7.2 on mine only to see that it > > worked. > > > > How slow is it. I would of thought a 166 alpha would be a lot faster > then a vaxstation. It can be, if it were a "real" Alpha system design. The Multia, although equipped with an Alpha processor, was designed to be as cheap as possible, so its design omitted several important things that are vital to optimum Alpha performance. My COBRA (DEC4000) system, with one CPU taken out, is a HELL of a lot faster than the Multia. Still, it's a nice box. But running VMS on it is, um, painful. You'll have a lot more fun with it running xBSD or Linux. --f From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 23 14:00:11 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT- Streamer Tapedrive was->Re: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2004, at 9:20 AM, John Lawson wrote: > "Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - > there's a couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 What does it take to connect one of those to a PC? (under linux?) From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Oct 23 14:18:45 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT- Streamer Tapedrive was->Re: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > > What does it take to connect one of those to a PC? (under linux?) > > A SCSI port on both, then some kind of package (like NovaStor - now out of business) that will be able to process the records from the tape. I don't know how this would work under the various *xes... I'm running an IBM Thinkpad A21m and Win2KPro. Using an Adaptec 1460D PCMCIA card. Cheers John From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 23 14:32:33 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT- Streamer Tapedrive was->Re: 1/2" tape cleaners? References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <003501c4b937$0bbfde40$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Ron Hudson" > > > "Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - > > there's a couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 > What does it take to connect one of those to a PC? (under linux?) Depends on the drive. The majority I've had my hands on, are SCSI, either SE or HVD. Some drives like Qualstar 34xx, M4 9914, Overland (maybe) can be found with SE or HVD. Adaptec adapters are always a good choice. Older models like the Qualstar 1052 (1600 and 3200 bpi) tend to have a Pertec Interface, i.e. edge connectors (like 5.25" floppies). These connect to adapters like Overland TX8, TXi16, Flagstaff, Shaffstall, etc etc. I have the software for Overland adapters; don't know if they will work with the others. These adapters fit in EISA slots. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 22-10-2004 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 23 14:30:41 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <26c11a64041023114652deab74@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041023153546.E538F7A4EF@dittman.net> <26c11a64041023114652deab74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041023213041.791f8fe6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 19:46:59 +0100 Dan Williams wrote: > How slow is it. I would of thought a 166 alpha would be a lot faster > then a vaxstation. A VAXstation 4000/96 (95?) may be faster then a Multia. The Multia has the chripeld down 21066 CPU chip. A 166 MHz EV4 Alpha is not fast at all but with the limited memory interface of the 21066 it will be extra slow. (Alphas need _lots_ of memory bandwith.) If you want an Alpha to play with get a DEC 3000-600 or up or somthing in the range of an AlphaStation 255. (Somthing with a 21064 or an early 21164 machine.) By the way I have an AlphaServer 1000A 5/400 for sell / trade. (Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dholland at woh.rr.com Sat Oct 23 14:41:36 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098560496.20684.65.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Sat, 2004-10-23 at 14:56, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Dan Williams wrote: > > Still, it's a nice box. But running VMS on it is, um, painful. > > You'll have a lot more fun with it running xBSD or Linux. The main reason I'm dinking w/ this is I need to unpack a couple of VMS Alpha self extracting archives. I don't expect to be doing much of anything with it, other than maybe clustering it w/ a SIMH'd VAX. (but that's just for the geek factor.) Eitherway, the Multia was a freebie, so the price is pretty right. But at the moment, I'm having issues getting it to take firmware updates. I've reduced it down to trying the FSL, it boots from the floppy, reads 29 tracks (if my count is right.) then it goes to a black screen w/ a cursor in the lower left. And there it sits. Maybe its sizing memory or something, but I've left it sitting for several minutes, and haven't seen it do anything. Perhaps its bad.. David > > --f From dholland at woh.rr.com Sat Oct 23 15:11:26 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <1098560496.20684.65.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1098560496.20684.65.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <1098562286.20684.98.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Sat, 2004-10-23 at 15:41, David Holland wrote: > But at the moment, I'm having issues getting it to take firmware > updates. > > I've reduced it down to trying the FSL, it boots from the floppy, reads > 29 tracks (if my count is right.) then it goes to a black screen w/ a > cursor in the lower left. And there it sits. Maybe its sizing memory > or something, but I've left it sitting for several minutes, and haven't > seen it do anything. > > Perhaps its bad.. > Today's useless trivia.. It appears that a keyboard that works at the ARC console may or may not necessarily work for the SRM console. The symptoms being what appear to be hangs where you'd think you'd be seing SRM console "stuff". David From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Oct 23 15:13:21 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Oct 2004 09:59:12 PDT." <20041023165912.4CBEA40AB@spies.com> Message-ID: <200410232013.i9NKDLj3010406@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >> >Like this one? > >That is a certifier. It reads and writes on the tape. huh. ok. I got led astray by the button marked "clean" does "clean" mean "erase"? >http://www.datadev.com/mark350.html is more like what he is yes - that's like what I remember. -brad From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Oct 23 15:21:01 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111335E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > So what kinda pie do you want, Sellam? ;^> LOL, but seriously Roger, that was a perfect explanation! BTW. good tip to make a backup floppy with a Clear Label on it. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 23-10-2004 17:18 Subject: RE: access to BIOS of DECpc Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, Gooijen H wrote: > > > A short update on my efforts ... > > The Fujitsu-OnRack version did what was to be expected: it checks and > > sees that there is no Fujitsu drive in the PC and stops :-) > > Sorry to say that the version from Pete is for Western Digital drives > > and shows the same behaviour :-( > > I found a gfew manufacturer versions, but not for HP &%$#@!& > > However, there is till hope at 2 fronts: the version Dave will dig up, > > and there is one on auction at eBay (for just a few $$). If I will be > > the lucky winner I will share the data on the disk with everybody that > > is interested in a copy. It looks like this is an *original* OnTrack > > version that works with drives of any manufacturer. It's version 7 ... > > I'll report back later. > >Maybe this is a dumb suggestion, in which case I invite folks to throw >pies at me while I'm stripped down nekkid (note: I might like it), If you're talking Lemon Meringue fresh outta the oven, I doubt you'd like it (well, not for *long*, anyway! :-O )... >... but >what about using a boot manager instead? Would it not accomplish the same >thing? Noper, two totally different critters. Boot managers just *replaces* the standard MBR with a customizable MBR so you can boot multiple OSs. It has nothing to do WRT disk geometry or sizes. Linux's Grub is a good example. (LILO can do it too, but it's a little less forgiving of other operating systems.) Even Winders NT/2K/XP boot manager can be twiddled enough to boot Linux, tho it's *not* easy to do. Individual partitions are easily accessible from other OSs as the geometry is still derived from the BIOS/HD itself. OTOH, OnTrack (and others) actually "off-shift" the MBR and add a "pre-loader" which adds a BIOS patch to give the BIOS the ability to recognize larger HDs, or HDs with odd geometries. Then once it loads, the off-shifted MBR is then called and the computer can boot normally. If this BIOS patch is *not* loaded first, then the computer cannot accurately recognize the HD geometry, partition sizes or locations, etc. On the plus side, it's *very* handy every time an idiot PeeCee manufacturer decides to hard-code YADAHDL (that's "Yet Another DumbAss Hard Drive Limitation... ;-) -- First 32Meg, then 528 Meg, then 2Gig, then 8 Gig, then 80Gig, then 127Gig, and I'm sure there's others in between I've forgotten. This code allows a computer with a 528-Meg BIOS limitation (or older computer who's BIOS doesn't have customizable entries) to utilize larger HDs. On the minus side - He who uses this software had better take care on having a good backup plan in place that does not require this software! As the geometry's been "jumbled" to make it work in that environment, if you yank the drive & put it in another machine, the partitions won't be recognized or anything. With OnTrack and some others, you *could* set up a boot floppy with the special code so another machine (if booted from this floppy) could read the partitions & whatnot, but guaranteed, as soon as you need that floppy, you won't be able to find it... ;-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger So what kinda pie do you want, Sellam? ;^> -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 23 15:16:36 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fujitsu M2294p drives & interfaces In-Reply-To: Stephane Tsacas "Re: Fujitsu M2294p drives & interfaces" (Oct 23, 20:35) References: <001201c4b48b$a9552580$6502a8c0@internetrechner> Message-ID: <10410232116.ZM11421@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23 2004, 20:35, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > Folks, > > Another fat SMD, Eagle like drive on ebay : > FUJITSU LIMITED FIXED DISK UNIT # M2294K ~VERY NICE! > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5132599282 They're nice drives -- I have one -- but the seller has mis-described it slightly. It's not "missing the power cord". The power cable is what you can see in the picture, lying on top of the HDA: the cable(s) with three big AMP (or Molex? I forget which) connectors on the end. What's missing is the PSU, and you won't be running *that* drive off an ex-PC PSU. It's also missing the outer halves of the mounting rails (the parts that fit to the rack), the SMD terminator, and the front panel. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Oct 23 15:42:03 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Need URL for Download O fTV Show In-Reply-To: <006201c4b916$b0c6e3a0$4b406b43@66067007> References: <006201c4b916$b0c6e3a0$4b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: In message <006201c4b916$b0c6e3a0$4b406b43@66067007> "Keys" wrote: > By mistake I deleted the message that had the URL for downloading the > G4TechTV's The Screen Savers TV show with Sellam, does anyone remember what > it was? I have downloaded the BitTorrent client to view it with. Thanks Here be torrents! G4TechTV: The Screen Savers: 2004/10/19 http://tinyurl.com/6r97y Sellam's slot starts about 35 minutes in. It's an M$ Windows Media Player file, though (spit). Had it been an MPEG, I'd have extracted Sellam's slot and stuck it on an FTP somewhere - natch. I do agree with the general consensus of the classiccmp'ers (or at least the vocal ones), though - if this is the best G4TechTV can do, I'm not interested. Heck, even [.tv] (BskyB's "answer" to TechTV) managed to get a few presenters who at least seemed to be knowledgeable... The TSS presenters just seem to be pretending to be knowlegeable an ending up looking like fools... Someone really needs to buy an old warehouse, get a few optical-fibre Internet lines fitted, then set up an online "what TechTV should have been" sort of thing. MPEG streaming, of course, so everyone with an MPEG-capable machine can watch . If I had a few thousand pounds, I'd be tempted to do it myself. The problem being cost-balancing and getting the revenue flowing... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If you know, you're a genius. If you answer, you're awesome. From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 23 15:52:08 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <20041023205208.89B6040AD@spies.com> > does "clean" mean "erase"? -- Since they are still around, see if you can get a manual. It will probably be $100 to ship the unit, even if you get it for $50. They may support cleaning a tape w/o certifying it. Also check if there are consumables (the older Kybe units have a loop of cleaning tape that I haven't been able to find a source for) required for this unit. I didn't see any supplies listed on their web page. From aek at spies.com Sat Oct 23 17:05:38 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? Message-ID: <20041023220538.9791240AD@spies.com> fwiw, I've put the two Kybe manuals that I have up on www.bitsavers.org/pdf/kybe. I have a MLT-600 (100+ lbs) From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Oct 23 18:13:09 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113360@gd-mail03.oce.nl> As promised, the update. The last version I received from Pete is indeed the OnTrack 7.09 version that works with all disks. GREAT STUFF!! It recognized immediately my HP C2965A. On that drive it says: 988 cyl 16 hds 52 sect 420.8 Mb OnTrack maps that differently, but what the heck: it works perfectly. A bit strange though is that I have a C: (boot)partition of 420 Mb *and* a D: partition of some 418 Mb. The drive clearly says 420.8 Mb, but OnTrack says 818 Mb ....? Perhaps word -> byte? just guessing. Anyway, the DECpc 320P is on its way to run E11 and SIMH! At least, the PDP-11 simulation runs on a PC .... but it's a *DECpc* :-) thanks for all replies! - Henk, PA8PDP. PS. Dave, if you find a newer version I would be glad to receive a copy to store it for later requests. Think of your version being backed up at an other continent :-) From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Oct 23 18:14:27 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023053502.02c7f750@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023053502.02c7f750@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <417AE5D3.6080402@compsys.to> > Ed Kelleher wrote: > >At 11:12 PM 10/22/2004, Graham wrote: > >> I think RT-11 had version numbers (in the style of VMS) >> [Snip] > > Though my wife likes RT11, > [Snip] Jerome Fine replies: I am not sure if that is a benefit. Since my wife used to refer to the terminals for the PDP-11 systems (VT100, etc.) as the actual computers and could not even tell or understand what a hard disk drive was, there was obviously no meeting of the minds as far as work was concerned. BUT, when we met and were married (1957) BEFORE any real computers were widely known and understood, neither of us could even recognize a computer. I did not meet my first computer until about 1958 at an insurance company during a summer job. > RT11 file structure didn't have version numbers. > Didn't even keep time of creation, just a single date. > No attributes either, except RO in later versions. > Just 1 directory for entire disk. Probably a BRIEF outline of RT-11 file structures: (a) Home block in block 1 which contains non-essential Volume ID. (b) Directory segments of 2 blocks each (maximum of 31) start in block 6 (c) First 5 words of each directory segment: - Maximum number of directory segments - Next directory segment number (0 if end of chain) - Highest number of directory segments - Extra number of bytes for each directory entry - Start block number of directory entries for THIS directory segment (d) Standard file entries contain 7 words - Status word for the directory entry - 3 words of Radix50 (2 for file name, 1 for file type) - Number of blocks for this directory entry (0 to 65535 blocks) - Spare word used for a Tentative File Entry - word for Creation Date Agreed that version numbers were NOT possible ONLY File Creation Date (NO File Creation Time), let alone other file parameters Files could be PROTECTED against being DELETED; DEC NEVER had code to allow files to be RO (Read ONLY). The RT-11 command: [UN]PROTECT FOOBAR TSX-PLUS used the extra word as the (Creation Time/3) for each file in seconds/3 AFTER the file was made permanent. The extra bytes allowed for each file entry can be used to hold any data for each file such as Reference Date/Time, Modification Date/Time, Backup Date/Time. Some privately used systems have a modified USR which supports such enhancements. Starting with V05.00 in 1983, DEC supported the LD(X).SYS device drivers (Logical Disks) which allowed the RT-11 command: MOUNT LDn: DEV:FOOBAR.DSK after which LDn: could be used as a normal data disk, including having its own file directory. Thus, the single file directory for the primary physical hard disk drive (maximum size of 65536 blocks) can hold hundreds (normally only a dozen at most) of files which can also be used a logical devices (normally 8 at one time - can be extended to 64 at one time with a SYSGEN). > There were a few words available in each directory file entry for user > applications. These words were NOT supported by DEC. I understand that Dibol programs may have used them. Does your wife remember and if so, how were they used? > Big thing: files had to be contiguous. YES - that aspect was a bit inconvenient, but not really difficult. The big problem was that a file could NOT be expanded in size unless the space immediately following the file was empty and had the number of blocks that were required. > As files were deleted they made free spaces. This almost never caused a problem. It was what RT-11 users expected, if they even thought about it at all. > New files could only be as large as the largest free space on a disk. This was a problem at times, especially for those RT-11 users who did not pay attention to fragmentation in the disk space. > Had to compress (squeeze) the file structure periodically to > consolidate all the free spaces. NOT a problem at all if the users were aware of the problem. HOWEVER, for myself, I would ALWAYS make a backup copy of a hard disk before doing this since any failure would be catastrophic. But most RT-11 users ignored the possibility and on rare occasions lost many files. > My wife, before we were married, used that to set the hook in me. What did she do?????? > She was a Dibol programmer who had graduated from programming on a PDP > 8/A to a PDP 11/34. > I was the geek upstairs building M6800 tape readers and programming > them with the ASR33. By the time I worked on a PDP-11/34 in 1979, my wife and I had been married for 22 years and I was no longer the geek. > No command language in those days, RT11 V2c was strictly command line. > Dibol compiler had a /S switch to suppress data division summary in > source listing. > PIP /S was used to squeeze the disk. Anyone who can type quickly does not have a problem. The commands are a bit stark, but no more difficult to remember than DCL (DEC COMMAND LANGUAGE). Why was the /S switch important in Dibol????? These days, the equivalent command for DUP stops the user from using the until the squeeze is finished. > Dibol would let you use ^C to stop the program and source listing. > That was accepted practice. > PIP would let you use ^C to abort it in the middle of rewriting your > disk directory. > That was definitely NOT good practice. Actually, the (^C) is part of RT-11. The program can disable the feature when it requests to do so (providing the user does not crash RT-11 during a window when RT-11 is vulnerable due to an RT-11 bug). If the is enabled, then RT-11 kills execution. As stated above, DUP (which now performs the squeeze) has DISABLED while the squeeze is in progress. > Girl comes crying into room, "I did PIP/S and not DICOMP/S and ^C'd > and I've lost all my work!!!". > (Don't you just love it when they talk like that!) > Geek boy helps pretty programmer recover data, gets big kiss, etc. etc. > > Yup, RT11 was definitely useful despite it's limitations. > I doubt she'd have hung around long enough for us to meet if she'd had > to work on a MUSS of lmp rats GUTS. While I agree that early RT-11 systems had severe limitations, eventually RT-11 evolved into a rich operating system, especially when TSX-PLUS became available (actually a complete rewrite of the resident portion of the operating system by S&H) which supported multi-job and even multi-task usage. It was actually called a poor man's VMS since even security was very strong for the early 1980s. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From tomhudson at execpc.com Sat Oct 23 18:50:16 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT: Temperature and voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: <417AE5D3.6080402@compsys.to> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023053502.02c7f750@192.168.0.1> <417AE5D3.6080402@compsys.to> Message-ID: <417AEE38.5030202@execpc.com> I apologize for the OT nature of this, but knowing how many excellent engineers are on this list, I thought I'd take a shot... I need to monitor temperature and voltage of 24 batteries in more-or-less real time (say, one sample every 10 seconds). The batteries are connected in series, so I need to have isolation on the voltage sensors. Ideally, I'd want to have the sensor output available via RS-232 at some decent rate (say, 9600 baud). Temperature range would be 0-100C, voltage from 0-16VDC. This is for the batteries on my electric truck, BTW. Does anyone know of a reasonably-priced, off-the-shelf unit that can do this? Email me privately if you'd like, or on the list if you don't think this is too off-topic (you can just pretend I'm going to be reading the data with my Atari ST). Thanks! -Tom From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Oct 23 20:25:13 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Apple IIc Plus's for sale Message-ID: <20041023.182514.1260.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> If anyone's interested, I have listed a couple of Apple IIc Pluses at http://marketplace.vintage.org. I also have the external 3.5" floppies for them as well . . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 23 20:38:20 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT: Temperature and voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: <417AEE38.5030202@execpc.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023053502.02c7f750@192.168.0.1> <417AE5D3.6080402@compsys.to> <417AEE38.5030202@execpc.com> Message-ID: Maybe these guys can help ? http://dcf.sk/microweb/ I'm using this product and I'm happy with it. Stephane On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:50:16 -0500, Tom Hudson wrote: ... > > I need to monitor temperature and voltage of 24 batteries in > more-or-less real time (say, one sample every 10 seconds). ... -- Stephane Paris, France. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Oct 23 21:00:31 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> Message-ID: <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 10:02:32AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > "Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - there's a > couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 and that's about half too much - > but there are plenty of the Cipher 880s, HP and M4 Data drives out there. I picked up a TSZ07 (DEC-badged SCSI 9 track) a while back for $50, with an Alpha server attached - one processor (out of two possible), 384MB, three disk shelves, CD-ROM, DAT, 2 x 10BaseT. I really was after the tape drive, but the computer was a nice addition (it used to run the library on-line card catalog at Ohio State). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Oct-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -55.7 F (-48.7 C) Windchill -69.59 F (-56.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.5 kts Grid 006 Barometer 675.4 mb (10800. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Oct 23 21:03:57 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT- Streamer Tapedrive was->Re: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: <200410231512.i9NFCqWZ008550@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20041024020357.GB18742@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:00:11PM -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Oct 23, 2004, at 9:20 AM, John Lawson wrote: > > >"Streaming type" front loader 9 trk drives are a dime-a-dozen - > >there's a couple on the shlf at WierdStuff for $50 > > What does it take to connect one of those to a PC? (under linux?) I can't speak for the ones at WierdStuff since I haven't seen them, but if they are SCSI (like my TSZ07), all you need is a SCSI card, and commands like 'tar' and 'mt'. I threw an Adaptec 1460 PCMCIA SCSI card in my Linux laptop and was spinning tape moments later. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Oct-2004 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.3 F (-54.1 C) Windchill -65.3 F (-54.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 0 kts Grid 346 Barometer 675.5 mb (10796. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Oct 23 21:45:48 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023130153.02c76f70@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041023121056.02b7dc58@192.168.0.1> <5.2.0.9.2.20041023130153.02c76f70@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <200410231945.48430.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I found the tissue supply for the Tape cleaner/analyzer: http://www.datadev.com/cwt.html Note that a 12 pack is $95+$9.95 - and if I read the manual correctly, you need four rolls for operation - which wear out at about the same time. They should not be re-used. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Oct 23 22:12:29 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: xearth (was: Re: Linux OS) In-Reply-To: <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <8A09DFDD-256A-11D9-A5C7-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 19/10/2004, at 4:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 17:41 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 11:46:49AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I remember thinking how cool Linux was because it had xearth and >>> Windows >>> didn't :-) >> >> That is my background on my _on-topic_ SPARC desktop. >> >> I've been hacking xearth recently to render the Polar regions white. >> Unfortunately, the shape tables are not commented, so I have to go >> through manually to determine what shapes correspond to what land >> features. > > Now that's pretty cool. Will you be releasing it into the wider > world? :) > > I wonder if a modern version is overdue that does do some pretty good > shading approximation of all the landmasses? And even better, some form > of chaotic cloud approximation to give it that real 'earth from space' > feel! Have a look at OSXplanet (http://otte.ucsc.edu/~gabriel/osxplanet.html) for a more modern version (that knows about the poles and lots of other things). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sat Oct 23 23:19:35 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) In-Reply-To: <16762.38739.955526.537632@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> <16762.38739.955526.537632@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <417B2D57.6080902@compsys.to> > Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > > > Graham> Which reminds me... students at Groningen University wrote a > Graham> multi-tasking system for the PDP that was loosely based on > Graham> EMAS (big mainframe system from Edinburgh, sort of like > Graham> Multics but better). I remember one feature of the OS was > Graham> that it used an RT-11 format disk structure for raw storage > Graham> even though the user view of files was quite different. For > Graham> example I think RT-11 had version numbers (in the style of > Graham> VMS), but GUTS showed only the top-level file, and had a > Graham> "pop" command which deleted the most recent file and made the > Graham> version below it visible. > >Not RT11... perhaps you're thinking of that modified system? > > > Jerome Fine replies: You are correct. RT-11 has NEVER had version numbers! >Sounds a bit like a project I did at the University of Illinois >modifying RT11. It didn't get completely finished but it worked... >Changed the USR to a collection of overlays (not one big overlay). >Changed the file system to allow non-contiguous files while stilll >being very efficient -- roughly speaking a RT11 style fast and skinny >variant of ODS-1. Named directories, but no extension file headers; >LBAs limited to 2^16. I still have the sources at least on paper. >The overlay stuff required some assembler hacks, to make the overlays >PIC. Basically, a feature to say "this code loads at X but executes >at Y". There was partial support for that, as a hidden feature, in >the older Macro-11 sources but it needed work to make it flexible >enough. Some other systems offered that sort of thing standard (CDC >6000s for example -- and GNU Binutils too, for that matter). > If you can find those sources, it would be VERY appreciated. While the manner in which overlays were handled is not critical, it would certainly help reduce low memory. BUT, even more interesting would be the information about how non-contiguous files were handled. PIC is standard in the USR since it moves up and down in memory ALL the time. So I do not understand why you even mention the PIC aspect, let alone that something special needed to be done, although perhaps with overlays, something extra was required. On the other hand, device drivers which execute their overlays within the USR buffer do that all the time. The only aspect I see a being a REAL difficulty is that it is on hard copy. Any idea how many pages. At one point about 20 years ago, I started to write code for the USR which allowed a Reference Date and Modification Date for each file. Also useful was what VMS would call the LNL (Logical Name List) which I would call a Path Handler or something similar to the PATH NAME in DOS. A Pseudo Device handler (PHX.SYS) would be used with, for example: PH3: => LD2:, LD4:, DU3: along with the ability to: ASSIGN PH3: SRC: so that the standard command files which are already using device names such as SRC:, OBJ:, BIN:, LST: and SAV: could be used unchanged. Since little or no development is still being done, especially at a commercial level, this would be of interest ONLY for hobby users and would be done for free. But since these would likely involve changes to the USR and other DEC programs, the problem of making changes to Mentec owned copyright poses a problem. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Oct 23 23:16:57 2004 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Speaking of tape cleaners.... Message-ID: <8B3114E0-2573-11D9-B180-000502453125@eoni.com> I recently came into a few Imation Travan DC-2000 and MC-3000 cleaning kits. New in box. Would they be of use to anyone here? Jim Arnott Union, OR Leopards break into the temple and drink to the dregs what is in the sacrificial pitchers; this is repeated over and over again; finally it can be calculated in advance, and it becomes part of the ceremony. -Kafka From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 23 23:45:26 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Repositories of RSTS software? Message-ID: <86373AF3-2577-11D9-A705-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> I have gotten some stuff from http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/ Are there any other places? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 05:44:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs Message-ID: <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially available? The pair of Apollos that arrived at the museum yesterday both have rectangular blue LEDs fitted alongside the amber and green on the front of the machine - the systems date from 1990 though... It's possible that someone's fitted them years later of course! They certainly make the systems stand out though :-) cheers Jules From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Oct 24 09:52:37 2004 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23@zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 9448 Cartridge Module Drive Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041024164948.028e5d30@pop.xs4all.nl> I just dug up a huge 9448 cartridge module drive from magnetic peripherals here. Anybody interested in this beast ? Takes about 2 persons to carry it. I have no idea what the status is of this machine. The only thing I can say is that when turned on no smoke comes out and no fault lights come on. I just makes a nice humming sound ;-) Cheers, Stefan. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 10:09:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: software via radio Message-ID: <1098630562.5143.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving software via the radio? Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way through a pile of documentation donated to the museum to sort out the useful stuff and stumbled across an apology letter from the BBC. Seems they'd moved transmission from Radio 1 VHF to Radio 1 MW and they didn't exactly tell people in advance :-) The letter's dated 18th October 1984. Seems that the data was transmitted as part of a radio programme called 'chip shop'. Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. No practical use for anything these days of course, but an interesting snippet of computing history :-) cheers Jules From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 24 10:14:51 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 9448 Cartridge Module Drive References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041024164948.028e5d30@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004901c4b9dc$371938c0$1b406b43@66067007> Were is the unit located? If close to Houston I will pick it up from you. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: 9448 Cartridge Module Drive >I just dug up a huge 9448 cartridge module drive from magnetic peripherals >here. > Anybody interested in this beast ? Takes about 2 persons to carry it. > I have no idea what the status is of this machine. The only thing I can > say is that when turned on no smoke comes out and no fault lights come on. > I just makes a nice humming sound ;-) > > Cheers, > > Stefan. > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 10:19:35 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: TA Alphatronic PC = Matmos PC Message-ID: <1098631175.5143.43.camel@weka.localdomain> Probably a well-known fact for anyone with a TA Alphatronic PC, but I didn't know this... Seems that a company called Matmos bought up a large number of machines from a 'major European office equipment manufacturer', rebadged them, and sold them on (no idea of date unfortunately). The machine in the picture on the flyer I have is definitely a TA Alphatronic PC though. The 'nice' thing is that all the systems were shipped expanded with CP/M and twin 5.25" inch drives. Just passing this info on because as I recall most Alphatronic PCs shipped by TA were without the drives and necessary expansion unit (I've got three of the darn things used as dumb terminals), so if anyone wants to make a slightly more useful system, keep an eye out for a Matmos PC :-) cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Sun Oct 24 10:49:35 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs In-Reply-To: <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041024114431.00ae7ae0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially available? Available? I would think about 6-7 years ago... Affordable? I would pare that guesstimate down to about 3-4 years; RatShack only started carrying 'em about 2 years ago, IIRC. >It's possible that someone's fitted them years later of course! And they did. ;-) > They certainly make the systems stand out though :-) I'll bet! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Oct 24 10:54:43 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> At 09:00 PM 10/23/2004, you wrote: >I picked up a TSZ07 (DEC-badged SCSI 9 track) a while back for $50, It looks like there's been a few TSZ07 on eBay recently, they cost as much to buy as to ship (sub-$100 for drive). I imagine they weigh three or four stone. Stupid lazy questions: they plug into 120 VAC, or some other type of power supply? And what's the difference between the -CA and -AA variations? Are there good Linux packages for dealing with foreign tapes, such as handling variable block sizes? - John From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Oct 24 11:09:11 2004 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23@zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: 9448 Cartridge Module Drive In-Reply-To: <004901c4b9dc$371938c0$1b406b43@66067007> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20041024164948.028e5d30@pop.xs4all.nl> <004901c4b9dc$371938c0$1b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20041024180851.039903e0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Not really, its located in the Netherlands, near Belgium. At 17:14 24-10-2004, you wrote: >Were is the unit located? If close to Houston I will pick it up from you. >----- Original Message ----- From: >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:52 AM >Subject: 9448 Cartridge Module Drive > > >>I just dug up a huge 9448 cartridge module drive from magnetic >>peripherals here. >>Anybody interested in this beast ? Takes about 2 persons to carry it. >>I have no idea what the status is of this machine. The only thing I can >>say is that when turned on no smoke comes out and no fault lights come >>on. I just makes a nice humming sound ;-) >> >>Cheers, >> >>Stefan. >> From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 11:18:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041024114431.00ae7ae0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041024114431.00ae7ae0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1098634711.5125.69.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 11:49 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > > >Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially available? > > Available? I would think about 6-7 years ago... > > Affordable? I would pare that guesstimate down to about 3-4 years; RatShack > only started carrying 'em about 2 years ago, IIRC. Actually, you're way off :-) I just remembered that I had a 1993 Maplin catalogue kicking around, and it turns out that they happily sold them to the public back then (although only in round cases, not rectangular). But how long before then they were available to equipment manufacturers with more money than sense, I don't know! I'd guess a couple of years at most, which is still a year later than these Apollos (well, according to IC dates in the machines anyway) > >It's possible that someone's fitted them years later of course! > > And they did. ;-) Heh :) Despite the dates above it'd still seem that way to me too. Shame though, I think they're the only machines that the museum have with blue LEDs fitted :-) cheers! Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Oct 24 11:22:54 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by Compaq: three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks modular data router. eBay prices are all over the map: some sellers trying to unload them for $1000+, but the real auctions are going for less than $50 for each box. Each slot in the hub needs an optical transceiver; these seem to sell for $10 each. Cables? Many offered, few bidders. FC hard drives? $20 each. This stuff cost a fortune not so long ago. Why is it rock-bottom now? Will it ever be attractive to hobbyists? - John From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 24 11:31:53 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> Message-ID: <200410241131.53788.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 October 2004 11:22, John Foust wrote: > I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by Compaq: > three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks modular > data router. > > eBay prices are all over the map: some sellers trying to > unload them for $1000+, but the real auctions are going for > less than $50 for each box. Each slot in the hub needs an > optical transceiver; these seem to sell for $10 each. > Cables? Many offered, few bidders. FC hard drives? $20 each. > > This stuff cost a fortune not so long ago. Why is it > rock-bottom now? Will it ever be attractive to hobbyists? Yeah, I found it really attractive because of the price, which is why I bought 3.7-ish TB of it several months ago. I figured getting it at less than $1/GB, including JBOD's, raid widgets, FC hubs, FC switches, cables (all copper FC), a pair of racks, and PDUs, as well as 1.4TB worth of 18GB SCSI drives (from an EMC I wished to use with my S/390 but didn't have any ESCON as expected) which was "thrown in" was a good deal. And, the drives are probably more reliable than an off-the-shelf [P|S]ATA drive. Of course, the power comsumption on a 200GB+ IDE drive is probably less than 1/4 that of four of my 50GB FC-AL disks... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 24 11:53:55 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: vt278, decmate Message-ID: <417BDE23.6030308@ecubics.com> Hi all, just got two vt278 in. Both stop at thew T6 Test, Main Memory read/write. Is this a common problem ? Any vt278 users out there ? cheers From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 11:36:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <1098630562.5143.32.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 24, 4 03:09:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving > software via the radio? > > Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way Yes. It was actually a Dutch idea (and there are therefore articles about it in Elektor). > The letter's dated 18th October 1984. Seems that the data was > transmitted as part of a radio programme called 'chip shop'. It was called (with the obvious pun) 'The Chip Shop Takeaway Service' :-). 'The Chip Shop' was a programme on home computers that was transmitted in the later afternoon of either Saturday or Sunday (I forget which). > > Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left > it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had > 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It > was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), > but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. I've never seen the translator program for the Dragon, but there's no reason why there shouldn't have been one, and AFAIK no extra hardware would have been needed. I think the only machine that needed extra hardware was the TRS-80 Model 1 (and maybe, therefore, the Video Genie), since the built-in cassette hardware was pretty much designed round that machine's 500 baud scheme. The Model 3 did not need extra hardware, you could use the 1500 baud hardware to handle basicode dignals with the right software As luck would have it, My only computer at the time was a Model 1. I remember getting the translator tape, and the next weekend going up the Edgware Road in London (back then it was full of shops selling electronic components), buying the bits and soldering it together.... The other problem you may have with the Dragon, and which I had with the Mdoel 1 is that Basicode sort-of assumes a 40*24 text display. It's not supposed to (you're supposed to call a subroutine loaded as part of the compatibilty routines which loads a couple of variables with the screen size), but many programs didn't bother, or didn't do the right thing if one or both of the dimensions was smaller than expected. -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 24 12:22:30 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: John Foust "Fibre Channel?" (Oct 24, 11:22) References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> Message-ID: <10410241822.ZM12767@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 24 2004, 11:22, John Foust wrote: > > I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by Compaq: > three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks modular > data router. > > eBay prices are all over the map: some sellers trying to > unload them for $1000+, but the real auctions are going for > less than $50 for each box. Each slot in the hub needs an > optical transceiver; these seem to sell for $10 each. > Cables? Many offered, few bidders. FC hard drives? $20 each. > > This stuff cost a fortune not so long ago. Why is it > rock-bottom now? Will it ever be attractive to hobbyists? Because serious users have upgraded and the cast-offs aren't very popular, I suspect. To users who think SCSI is odd, FC probably seems wierd for words (look at the interface on the back of those drives). They also tend to be small and relatively power hungry, compared to cheap ATA drives, and how many cheap FC-AL PCI cards have you seen for a PC? I've got some FC-AL RAID stuff, but it's on an Origin 2000, and anyway it's all 9GB drives. Hardly something buyers would fight over. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 24 12:37:54 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <10410241822.ZM12767@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> <10410241822.ZM12767@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200410241237.54583.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 24 October 2004 12:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 24 2004, 11:22, John Foust wrote: > > I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by > > Compaq: three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks > > modular data router. > > > > eBay prices are all over the map: some sellers trying to > > unload them for $1000+, but the real auctions are going for > > less than $50 for each box. Each slot in the hub needs an > > optical transceiver; these seem to sell for $10 each. > > Cables? Many offered, few bidders. FC hard drives? $20 each. > > > > This stuff cost a fortune not so long ago. Why is it > > rock-bottom now? Will it ever be attractive to hobbyists? > > Because serious users have upgraded and the cast-offs aren't very > popular, I suspect. To users who think SCSI is odd, FC probably > seems wierd for words (look at the interface on the back of those > drives). They also tend to be small and relatively power hungry, > compared to cheap ATA drives, and how many cheap FC-AL PCI cards have > you seen for a PC? Qlogic ISP2200s. Copper FC for now down to $20-$50, with fabric and AL support, as eBay prices. I managed to get lucky and get a pair of cards for $5 recently, from my "usual suplier". > I've got some FC-AL RAID stuff, but it's on an Origin 2000, and > anyway it's all 9GB drives. Hardly something buyers would fight > over. Yeah, part of the reason I got the stuff I got is because the FC stuff was all 36GB and 50GB drives. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Oct 24 12:38:35 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:12 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:09:22 -0000." <1098630562.5143.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200410241738.SAA04799@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, julesrichardson said: > > Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving > software via the radio? > > Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way > through a pile of documentation donated to the museum to sort out the > useful stuff and stumbled across an apology letter from the BBC. Seems > they'd moved transmission from Radio 1 VHF to Radio 1 MW and they didn't > exactly tell people in advance :-) > > The letter's dated 18th October 1984. Seems that the data was > transmitted as part of a radio programme called 'chip shop'. > > Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left > it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had > 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It > was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), > but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. I'm pretty sure I've got a cassette of the TRS-80 version plus manual somehere. It's big thing was the same Basic program would run on any of the machines for which they produced a Basicode interpreter. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 24 13:53:12 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <1098630562.5143.32.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Jules, > Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving > software via the radio? Yeah. > Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way > through a pile of documentation donated to the museum to sort out the > useful stuff and stumbled across an apology letter from the BBC. Seems > they'd moved transmission from Radio 1 VHF to Radio 1 MW and they didn't > exactly tell people in advance :-) That service existed in Holland, too, at around the same time. They used simple FSK modulation to send out files.. the programme presenter would babble for a bit, then say "OK folks, time for the fans to hit their RECORD button... counting down 10... 1 " Of course, they'd send out several programs for several kinds of puters, I remember the Commodore ones, the Philips systems (Philips actually did invent this), some MSX stuff, and programs for the COMX-35. I remember, because I had both C64 and the COMX, and Basicode was pretty much the only source of software for that system :( > Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left > it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had > 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It > was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), > but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. I am quite sure Kees Stravers (kees.stravers atsign xs4all.nl) has all the info you need.. he worked with that a lot. Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Oct 24 14:07:44 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio References: Message-ID: <002d01c4b9fc$c1502a10$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> I think A good write up of this needs to exist. if someone would care to write it up and provide some graphics and pictures and advertisements please sent to info@smecc.org and I will find a place for it on the web site... it is indeed unique... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 11:53 AM Subject: Re: software via radio > Jules, > >> Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving >> software via the radio? > Yeah. > >> Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way >> through a pile of documentation donated to the museum to sort out the >> useful stuff and stumbled across an apology letter from the BBC. Seems >> they'd moved transmission from Radio 1 VHF to Radio 1 MW and they didn't >> exactly tell people in advance :-) > > That service existed in Holland, too, at around the same time. They > used simple FSK modulation to send out files.. the programme presenter > would babble for a bit, then say "OK folks, time for the fans to > hit their RECORD button... counting down 10... 1 " > > Of course, they'd send out several programs for several kinds of puters, > I remember the Commodore ones, the Philips systems (Philips actually did > invent this), some MSX stuff, and programs for the COMX-35. I remember, > because I had both C64 and the COMX, and Basicode was pretty much the > only source of software for that system :( > >> Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left >> it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had >> 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It >> was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), >> but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. > I am quite sure Kees Stravers (kees.stravers atsign xs4all.nl) has > all the info you need.. he worked with that a lot. > > Fred > -- > Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) > Collector/Archivist > Visit the VAXlab Project at > http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.pdp11.nl/ > Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, > USA > > From lists at microvax.org Sun Oct 24 14:52:01 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: KA640 TM Message-ID: <417C07E1.1030003@microvax.org> Hi - does anybody know of any copies of the KA640 Tech Manual online? I think i've got a blown DSSI picofuse* and i'd like to have a casual flip through the manual whilst i'm away from the system. I've searched Manx and poked Google, both turned up nothing. Cheers guys alex/melt * Terminator not lighting up, first disk in chain never coming online, CPU "Normal Operation Not Possible" errors From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 24 14:55:41 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <002d01c4b9fc$c1502a10$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: All, > I think A good write up of this needs to exist. > if someone would care to write it up and provide some graphics and pictures > and advertisements please sent to info@smecc.org and I will find a place > for it on the web site... it is indeed unique... Well, Kees immediately slapped me in the face while saying "bad info" :) (hey, I was a bit too young at the time, gimme a break ;-) Anyway. It was in the Dutch "tech" programme "Hobbyscoop" that the first trials were sent out. Later, things were changed, the general BASIC-level interoperability was added, and it became BASICode. There's an (English) web page on the subject at: http://www.xs4all.nl/~lennartb/basicode.html Theres some historical info about the project on Hobbyscoop's site as well: http://www.hobbyscoop.nl/index.html So there! :) --f From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 24 15:04:21 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> Message-ID: <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 10:54:43AM -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 09:00 PM 10/23/2004, you wrote: > >I picked up a TSZ07 (DEC-badged SCSI 9 track) a while back for $50, > > It looks like there's been a few TSZ07 on eBay recently, they > cost as much to buy as to ship (sub-$100 for drive). I imagine > they weigh three or four stone. Shipping costs are a big concern - that's why I leaped on the one down the street at the Uni for $50 - put it in my station wagon and drove home! > Stupid lazy questions: they plug into 120 VAC, or some other type of > power supply? 120VAC. > And what's the difference between the -CA and -AA variations? Dunno about that. I'm not even sure which one I might have. > Are there good Linux packages for dealing with foreign > tapes, such as handling variable block sizes? dd will handle variable block sizes on a per-tape-file basis. I'm sure there are other utilities that can as well. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Oct-2004 20:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.7 F (-43.8 C) Windchill -64.2 F (-53.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.9 kts Grid 344 Barometer 673.1 mb (10888. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 24 15:11:33 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Are there good Linux packages for dealing with foreign >>tapes, such as handling variable block sizes? > > > dd will handle variable block sizes on a per-tape-file basis. I'm sure > there are other utilities that can as well. Linux has the Unix-standard mt command, too, which allows setting the blocksize the system device uses, either explicitly or to a variable blocksize. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 15:18:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098649129.5143.76.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 17:36 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen the translator program for the Dragon, but there's no > reason why there shouldn't have been one, and AFAIK no extra hardware > would have been needed. Fair enough. Your reference to Elektor is interesting; I just stumbled across a reference to an optional filter module for the Dragon, details of which were published in Elektor. It doesn't say which issue unfortunately. > The other problem you may have with the Dragon, and which I had with the > Mdoel 1 is that Basicode sort-of assumes a 40*24 text display. It's not > supposed to (you're supposed to call a subroutine loaded as part of the > compatibilty routines which loads a couple of variables with the screen > size), but many programs didn't bother, or didn't do the right thing if > one or both of the dimensions was smaller than expected. So Basicode's basically a language in its own right, and they sold interpreters for different machines? When I first heard about it I assumed they'd transmitted different programs at different times for different machines and that Basicode was just a front-end for the native interpreter which knew how to decode the incoming radio signal to the machine's native Basic format. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 24 15:11:29 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200410242018.QAA09308@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Are there good Linux packages for dealing with foreign tapes, such >> as handling variable block sizes? > dd will handle variable block sizes on a per-tape-file basis. I'm > sure there are other utilities that can as well. My own favourite is copytape, which works well with tape drives that fit the Unix model of stream-of-tape-blocks. (It works less well, but better than not at all, with drives like the old Sun quarter-inch drives that are not a stream of variable-sized blocks but rather a stream of fixed-size blocks which the driver is willing to transparently reblock to any multiple of that fixed size.) ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/copytape/ is the source I have (which is a slight tweakage of the version I got). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 24 15:26:44 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <002d01c4b9fc$c1502a10$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> References: <002d01c4b9fc$c1502a10$739f6d44@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <1098649604.5143.85.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 12:07 -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > I think A good write up of this needs to exist. > if someone would care to write it up and provide some graphics and pictures > and advertisements please sent to info@smecc.org and I will find a place > for it on the web site... Agreed, although I know next to nothing about it :-) I'll definitely be keeping all the relevant bits I find together in a safe place, though. I'll add that BBC apology letter to the pile of things awaiting scanning if needs be; I'll also see what related manuals / software there are for the Dragon when I'm at the museum next. > it is indeed unique... I suppose it's up there with Telesoftware as a good example of a public- access information system that pre-dated the www. I'll ask one of our museum guys about Basicode as I believe he was quite involved in the 8-bit micro days of introducing computers to the masses. He may have some experiences and the like to share. cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 24 15:34:30 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 03:11:33PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > Linux has the Unix-standard mt command, too, which allows setting the > blocksize the system device uses, either explicitly or to a variable > blocksize. Ah... I have never used that facet of 'mt' before (but I use mt on Linux all the time, practically daily, with our SDLTs). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Oct-2004 20:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -46.9 F (-43.8 C) Windchill -65.09 F (-53.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.1 kts Grid 343 Barometer 673.1 mb (10888. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 24 15:41:45 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 03:11:33PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Linux has the Unix-standard mt command, too, which allows setting the >>blocksize the system device uses, either explicitly or to a variable >>blocksize. > > > Ah... I have never used that facet of 'mt' before (but I use mt on Linux > all the time, practically daily, with our SDLTs). It's amazing how much faster a DLT4000 runs when you set the blocksize to 0 (variable - allows the tape drive to set it and the app to override) instead of 512 bytes. :) Doc From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 24 15:46:56 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 03:11:33PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Linux has the Unix-standard mt command, too, which allows setting the > > blocksize the system device uses, either explicitly or to a variable > > blocksize. > > Ah... I have never used that facet of 'mt' before (but I use mt on Linux > all the time, practically daily, with our SDLTs). You dont need 'mt' (under any UNIX system) to read non-local tape formats. It doesn't even work that way: by using 'mt' to set the block size, you only set its *reblocking* factor. When reading raw tapes (meaning: read them, as they come), you need to tell the driver exactly that: no cooking up block sizes, just give the user whatever comes in. Usually, this is handled by opening the "raw" mode device for that tape. I don't use Linux, but assuming it at least TRIES to adhere to a standard, you should be able to use /dev/r{nameoftape}{unitnumber} as in /dev/rst0 for the first detected tape unit on the SCSI bus. This causes the driver to disable reblocking, and allocate a large buffer space so it can cope with whatever comes its way. Older systems had a limit of 16KB in that buffer, this is probably more like 64KB nowadays. So, your program does fd = open("/dev/rst0", READ) and then enters a loop, reading blocks from the tape: for(;;) { len = read(fd, mybuff, sizeof(mybuff)) if (len < 0) /* we have problems, scotty, beam us up! */ /* len now has the size of the block we just read */ } where usually, a length of 0 indicates an EOF (end of logical file, aka "first tape mark detected") or EOT (end of tape, aka "second consequtive tape mark detected") situation. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 24 16:02:11 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) References: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> <16762.38739.955526.537632@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <417B2D57.6080902@compsys.to> Message-ID: <16764.6227.203000.104808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Sounds a bit like a project I did at the University of Illinois >> modifying RT11. It didn't get completely finished but it >> worked... Jerome> PIC is standard in the USR since it moves up and down in Jerome> memory ALL the time. So I do not understand why you even Jerome> mention the PIC aspect, let alone that something special Jerome> needed to be done, although perhaps with overlays, something Jerome> extra was required. On the other hand, device drivers which Jerome> execute their overlays within the USR buffer do that all the Jerome> time. Memory is a bit rusty, but I think what I did was to define an overlay buffer (probably one or two blocks long) essentially as part of RMON. So displacements from overlays to RMON would be constant, no matter where RMON was loaded. Taking advantage of that saves space, because you can reference RMON data and code without having to do it PICly -- just use PC relative addressing. However, that requires an assembler that can be told "this code might link at X, but it will execute at RMOVBF". Jerome> The only aspect I see a being a REAL difficulty is that it is Jerome> on hard copy. Any idea how many pages. 2-3 inches of line printer output? paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sun Oct 24 16:05:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs References: <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16764.6420.600000.657930@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially Jules> available? The pair of Apollos that arrived at the museum Jules> yesterday both have rectangular blue LEDs fitted alongside the Jules> amber and green on the front of the machine - the systems date Jules> from 1990 though... Sounds a bit early, but the silicon carbide ones go back a ways. I wonder if the Cree website might tell. I'm pretty sure a friend of mine showed me some back when I still worked at DEC, which would make it 1994 or before. paul From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Oct 24 16:35:34 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs In-Reply-To: <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <417C2026.1090704@gifford.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially available? I saw a blue LED waaay back in 1984, fitted to the disk controller for a Newbrain. My friend got hold of one, somehow and fitted it as a "power-on" LED in an early example of "case-modding"! He told me that the blue LED was intended as a reference in spectroscopy. It certainly formed a very narrow beam of light, instead of having a diffuse "lens" as ordinary red LEDs do. It made a spot of light on the opposite wall of the Uni halls-of-residence room when we turned the lights out! -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 24 16:26:36 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410242136.RAA09571@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Linux has the Unix-standard mt command, too, which allows setting >>> the blocksize the system device uses, either explicitly or to a >>> variable blocksize. >> Ah... I have never used that facet of 'mt' before > You dont need 'mt' (under any UNIX system) to read non-local tape > formats. "Under any UNIX system"? Have you tried them all? > It doesn't even work that way: by using 'mt' to set the block size, > you only set its *reblocking* factor. This depends on the drive hardware and the driver. Some tape drives really do have fixed hardware block sizes. Even if setting a variable block size just causes the drive to do reblocking of some fixed on-tape block size, it still looks like a variable size block to the host. (Indeed, a classic half-inch tape can be thought of as having a fixed one-byte block size which is reblocked in hardware according to control information on the tape, though that's not a terribly useful POV.) > where usually, a length of 0 indicates an EOF (end of logical file, > aka "first tape mark detected") or EOT (end of tape, aka "second > consequtive tape mark detected") situation. If you are using real half-inch tapes, detecting EOT is hard. I've run into tapes with a dozen consecutive tape marks and data after them; with some hardware, if you keep reading you'll eventually run off the *physical* end of the tape - I've done it, and on the less friendly drives it's a mess to re-thread the tape enough to rewind it onto the original reel. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 16:21:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <1098649129.5143.76.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 24, 4 08:18:49 pm Message-ID: > Fair enough. Your reference to Elektor is interesting; I just stumbled > across a reference to an optional filter module for the Dragon, details > of which were published in Elektor. It doesn't say which issue > unfortunately. I probably have the right issue somewhere, but it will take me some time to go through them all.... > > > The other problem you may have with the Dragon, and which I had with the > > Mdoel 1 is that Basicode sort-of assumes a 40*24 text display. It's not > > supposed to (you're supposed to call a subroutine loaded as part of the > > compatibilty routines which loads a couple of variables with the screen > > size), but many programs didn't bother, or didn't do the right thing if > > one or both of the dimensions was smaller than expected. > > So Basicode's basically a language in its own right, and they sold > interpreters for different machines? When I first heard about it I It's BASIC, using a pretty minimal set of commands. You could use things like PRINT, LET, INPUT< FOR, NEXT, etc. What you couldn't use -- directly -- were things like clear screen, which was CLS on a TRS80, HOME on an Apple ][, printing some graphics character on a PET, etc. Or positioning the cursor. Or many other things that were done differently on different machines There was a set of subroutines that you loaded along with your program. The subroutines were machine-specific, and came with the translator tape. I forget the exact details, but maybe GOSUB 110 was clear screen, GOSUB 120 was postion (text) cursor at the location given by the variables X and Y, and so on. Your program -- which was then machine-independant -- started at line 1000 IIRC. So you recorded this machine-independant program from the radio. The first stange in translating it was to get it into your machine. It was basically CUTS 1200 baud tones and format, it was untokenised (of course). You then merged in the machine-dependant subroutines (which were the same for all Basicode programs) and ran the result. On most machines it was somewhat automatic. You loaded the translator (which was in the machine's native format), it loaded in the Basicode-format tape and stuck the subroutines in memory too. -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Oct 24 16:52:25 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Multia's... In-Reply-To: <1098562286.20684.98.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1098560496.20684.65.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <1098562286.20684.98.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <1098654745.13075.4.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> As a close to the thread.. Yes, it is slow, but it does work.. Console is slightly messed up, and isn't recognized by a 'set term /inq' Eh, shrug, it should do what I need it to.. thanks all, David uholld1@crusader:~> telnet 192.168.254.58 Trying 192.168.254.58... Connected to 192.168.254.58. Escape character is '^]'. Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.3-1 Username: system Password: Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.3-1 Last interactive login on Sunday, 24-OCT-2004 17:23:41.58 Last non-interactive login on Sunday, 24-OCT-2004 17:37:50.20 $ show system OpenVMS V7.3-1 on node KNIGHT 24-OCT-2004 17:45:38.83 Uptime 0 00:24:39 Pid Process Name State Pri I/O CPU Page flts Pages 00000081 SWAPPER HIB 16 0 0 00:00:03.19 0 0 00000084 LANACP HIB 12 68 0 00:00:00.33 118 92 00000086 IPCACP HIB 10 9 0 00:00:00.19 33 44 00000087 ERRFMT HIB 8 64 0 00:00:00.35 112 90 00000089 OPCOM HIB 9 108 0 00:00:00.45 95 47 0000008A AUDIT_SERVER HIB 10 81 0 00:00:00.56 167 134 0000008B JOB_CONTROL HIB 8 128 0 00:00:00.35 44 68 0000008D SECURITY_SERVER HIB 10 73 0 00:00:05.90 427 297 0000008E ACME_SERVER HIB 9 125 0 00:00:01.29 607 349 M 00000096 SYSTEM LEF 8 11080 0 00:01:45.67 30859 84 000000B8 TCPIP$INETACP HIB 8 132 0 00:00:00.58 269 171 000000BA TCPIP$FTP_1 LEF 10 159 0 00:00:01.48 713 232 N 000000BD _TNA2: CUR 4 75 0 00:00:00.57 235 152 $ show cpu System: KNIGHT, DEC AXPpci166 MT CPU ownership sets: Active 0 Configure 0 CPU state sets: Potential 0 Autostart 0 Powered Down None Failover None From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 24 17:01:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041024220119.GB4340@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 03:41:45PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > It's amazing how much faster a DLT4000 runs when you set the > blocksize to 0 (variable - allows the tape drive to set it and the app > to override) instead of 512 bytes. :) Ooh! Nice! I may have to fiddle with that (I'm making personal backups on some DLT drive of that vintage) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Oct-2004 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.1 F (-45.6 C) Windchill -74.40 F (-59.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.5 kts Grid 344 Barometer 673 mb (10892. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 24 16:58:45 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <200410242136.RAA09571@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >> Ah... I have never used that facet of 'mt' before > > You dont need 'mt' (under any UNIX system) to read non-local tape > > formats. > > "Under any UNIX system"? Have you tried them all? No, but, over the past 20 years, a good selection of them. > This depends on the drive hardware and the driver. Some tape drives > really do have fixed hardware block sizes. Even if setting a variable Yes, such as the half-inch ones, most DAT (DDS1/2 .. /3?) drives and, I believe, 8mm drives. > > where usually, a length of 0 indicates an EOF (end of logical file, > > aka "first tape mark detected") or EOT (end of tape, aka "second > > consequtive tape mark detected") situation. > > If you are using real half-inch tapes, detecting EOT is hard. I've run > into tapes with a dozen consecutive tape marks and data after them; > with some hardware, if you keep reading you'll eventually run off the > *physical* end of the tape - I've done it, and on the less friendly > drives it's a mess to re-thread the tape enough to rewind it onto the > original reel. True... half-inch (and most other fixed-block) drives didnt do the tapemark thing. What I forgot to mention was: teh tape-marking "standard" was mostly a software-based, voluntary standard, to prevent programs from reading past EOT. Of course, pretty much nothing prevented people from doing a sequence, and then writing more data :) --f From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 24 17:10:49 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <20041024220119.GB4340@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> <20041024220119.GB4340@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <417C2869.5090503@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Oct 24, 2004 at 03:41:45PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> It's amazing how much faster a DLT4000 runs when you set the >>blocksize to 0 (variable - allows the tape drive to set it and the app >>to override) instead of 512 bytes. :) > > > Ooh! Nice! I may have to fiddle with that (I'm making personal backups > on some DLT drive of that vintage) Any recent Linux _should_ be doing the right thing. The only time I've actually had trouble with a DLT was the aforementioned DLT4000 on an RS/6000. AIX doesn't really believe that devices not IBM-branded can perform up to spec, and sets them to the lowest possible common spec. In this case, a hard setting of 512-byte blocksize. A mksysb backup speeded up by a factor of 30 when Jonathan coaxed the OS into using the drive's own settings. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 24 17:10:28 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410242224.SAA09713@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Some tape drives really do have fixed hardware block sizes. > Yes, such as the half-inch ones, Half-inch? Are you perhaps thinking of quarter-inch? The only half-inch tapes I've ever used are the big reel-to-reel nine-track tapes, and those most definitely did not have a fixed hardware block size (except for the contrived way I sketched, looking at each byte as a record). QIC - quarter-inch cartridge - tapes did have a fixed block size, or at least most of the ones I used did. > What I forgot to mention was: teh tape-marking "standard" was mostly > a software-based, voluntary standard, to prevent programs from > reading past EOT. Of course, pretty much nothing prevented people > from doing a sequence, and then writing more data :) Well, it depends on the drive. QIC tapes with their serpentine recording pattern had an EOT mark on the tape that was physically different from two tape marks; the driver kept track, and when you did a second consecutive write-EOF, backed up over the previous EOF and did a write-EOT instead. Similar things were done when closing the tape, if it had been written to (or perhaps just if it was open for write). This is relevant because the drive would not read past an EOT marker, and (or so I've been told - I have no way of verifying it) the EOT marker was written not just at the current logical place (in the serpentine pattern) but at the current physical place, across the current track and all later tracks, and thus even advancing the tape by hand wouldn't buy you much. With half-inch nine-track tapes, if you overwrote the beginning of the tape, you could deliberately read past the second EOF and get whatever of the original data hadn't been overwritten (possibly with an error in the first, partial, record). Can't do that on a QIC. I think 8mm is similar to QIC in this respect, that EOT is not, on the tape, the same thing as two EOFs, and the drive will not read past an EOT marker. (Hmm, I wonder if you could "read past EOT" by overwriting the EOT and then cutting power ungracefully. I don't think I ever tried it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Oct 24 17:58:21 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024175510.103dc4b0@pc> At 03:41 PM 10/24/2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > It's amazing how much faster a DLT4000 runs when you set the blocksize to 0 (variable - allows the tape drive to set it and the app to override) instead of 512 bytes. :) Really? Why? Is that true on my DLT 35/70s? At 03:11 PM 10/24/2004, der Mouse wrote: >My own favourite is copytape, which works well with tape drives that >fit the Unix model of stream-of-tape-blocks. Ah, yes, that's the util I was thinking of. If I did around, I can find the 'tar' and 'mt' for ASPI under DOS that I used for years, that worked reasonably well. - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Oct 24 18:22:08 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024175510.103dc4b0@pc> References: <20041023170232.067AD40AB@spies.com> <20041024020031.GA18742@bos7.spole.gov> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105034.11417df8@pc> <20041024200421.GA22379@bos7.spole.gov> <417C0C75.9050605@mdrconsult.com> <20041024203430.GA28825@bos7.spole.gov> <417C1389.8050809@mdrconsult.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041024175510.103dc4b0@pc> Message-ID: <417C3920.6080405@mdrconsult.com> John Foust wrote: > At 03:41 PM 10/24/2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> It's amazing how much faster a DLT4000 runs when you set the blocksize to 0 (variable - allows the tape drive to set it and the app to override) instead of 512 bytes. :) > > > Really? Why? Is that true on my DLT 35/70s? Why is because the DLTs are designed to process large chunks of data. At 512-byte blocks, it's going erk-erk-erk-erk instead of zoom. ;) I should mention that the speed of your SCSI bus might come into play here. If the DLT is attached to, say, an Adaptec 1520, there's not much lovin you can give it. Whether you need to set or reset the blocksize is dependent on the operating system and what tools you're using for writing & reading. With nearly any "modern" streamer, a variable blocksize will give the best overall performance. Doc From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Oct 24 18:23:33 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: KA640 TM Message-ID: <0410242323.AA06516@ivan.Harhan.ORG> I would be very interested in a KA640 TM too! MS From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Oct 24 18:11:29 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 References: Message-ID: <01ee01c4ba21$85dda8c0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 12:43 AM Subject: Re: HP 25 and HP55 > > --Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? > > what is that stuff anyway? > > It's some alkaline compound, you need a (chemically) weak acid to clean > it up. I use a dilute solution of citric acid (this stuff is somewhat > hard to get in the UK, althought it's pretty harmless. I am told that > drug pushers (the illegal kind) use it to 'cut' their wares, hence the > fact that anyone buying it is viewed with suspicion :-(). Boots sell it in the wine and beer making section.( hic ) Geoff. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 23/10/04 From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 24 19:34:22 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:44:22 -0000." <1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200410250034.i9P0YMnC030584@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > >Does anyone know when blue LEDs first became commercially available? The >pair of Apollos that arrived at the museum yesterday both have >rectangular blue LEDs fitted alongside the amber and green on the front >of the machine - the systems date from 1990 though... I tried to put them into a system around 1989-90 and found they were *very* expensive. The person in charge of purchasing came back with something like hundreds of dollers per led... -brad From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 24 20:03:53 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: DEC Prototyping board Message-ID: <200410241803530542.CB3AF629@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, For those working with Qbus or Unibus DEC systems: I've just posted a Vector dual-height prototyping board for auction on E-pay. If you're interested, a search for item #5133752396 should reveal it. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 24 20:48:34 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Repositories of RSTS software? References: <86373AF3-2577-11D9-A705-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <001301c4ba34$bd385d70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Yeah, try http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/ (case is sensitive) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 24 20:53:38 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book References: <041022141714.2ef@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <002c01c4ba35$72338ab0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Jay, I have a copy, copywrite 1980. Darn, I should have read through all my email first... Someone pointed me to a copy online outside of ebay and I bought it there :\ That'll teach me. > BTW, you never answered on if you wanted the 11/45 book I had... 11/45 book? I'm not sure which one you mean, but most likely I'd be quite interested in it. I think someone offered me a dec handbook which included the 11/45, but not sure if that's what you're referring to. Let me know! Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 24 21:04:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: curious about unknown hp board Message-ID: <000501c4ba37$06f7fea0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> On ebay... item # 5133626288 I'm not sure I recognize this board, and somewhat curious just what it's for. Any ideas? Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 24 22:34:30 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Auction: Hayes Chronograph Message-ID: <20041024.203431.1260.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> At: http://marketplace.vintage.org Thank you for your attention . . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 24 22:00:20 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book Message-ID: <20041024.203431.1260.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Hey! If no one has claimed the PDP-11 assembler book, I would be interested. . . .. Jeff On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:53:38 -0500 "Jay West" writes: > > > Jay, I have a copy, copywrite 1980. > Darn, I should have read through all my email first... Someone > pointed me to > a copy online outside of ebay and I bought it there :\ That'll teach > me. > > > BTW, you never answered on if you wanted the 11/45 book I had... > 11/45 book? I'm not sure which one you mean, but most likely I'd be > quite > interested in it. I think someone offered me a dec handbook which > included > the 11/45, but not sure if that's what you're referring to. Let me > know! > > Regards, > > Jay West > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 24 22:55:41 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Anyone need a 220V Commodore 1571? Message-ID: <20041024.205541.1260.10.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> It only runs on 220v, mfg by Commodore, Germany. It's of little use to me, maybe somone on the other side of the Atlantic could use it (I'm in the US). Jeff ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 25 00:41:57 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <417C9225.8000205@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2004 at 04:58:00PM -0700, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Open PSU inside, and a logic board that converts the SDI I/O to talk >>to 2 Maxtor XT-8760-E ESDI drives. > > > Oops... I misread your message and parsed "SMD" where you wrote "ESDI". > > Perhaps we have the same bridge card, but in a different enclosure? > > Can't verify now... give me a few months if you don't find any info. Didn't get to power them up yet, but I finally had a chance to take some snapshots. You can't really tell, but that socketed 40-pin DIP on the bridge card is a Z80. http://www.docsbox.net/RA8/ One of the first things I want to check, after basic function, is whether these guys will function on one disk. Looks like they should. If they will, one of those Maxtors is going to go live in my PC/RT. The RT has a 280MB IDE Seagate Medalist in it right now, which was a cool hack, but I'd be happier with the ESDI adapter back in. And the Maxtor is bigger. :) Doc From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Oct 25 00:47:57 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: curious about unknown hp board In-Reply-To: <000501c4ba37$06f7fea0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> (Jay West's message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 21:04:55 -0500") References: <000501c4ba37$06f7fea0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200410250547.i9P5lvVX087725@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jay West wrote: > On ebay... item # 5133626288 > > I'm not sure I recognize this board, and somewhat curious just what > it's for. Any ideas? The "other numbers on this board" 02640-60148 suggest it's for a 264X terminal. It looks to me like a fuzzy picture of the backplane on a blue toilet seat cover. -Frank McConnell From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Oct 25 08:12:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: 1/2" tape cleaners? References: <200410242136.RAA09571@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16764.64467.858624.418827@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: >> If you are using real half-inch tapes, detecting EOT is hard. >> I've run into tapes with a dozen consecutive tape marks and data >> after them; with some hardware, if you keep reading you'll >> eventually run off the *physical* end of the tape - I've done it, >> and on the less friendly drives it's a mess to re-thread the tape >> enough to rewind it onto the original reel. Fred> True... half-inch (and most other fixed-block) drives didnt do Fred> the tapemark thing. Fred> What I forgot to mention was: teh tape-marking "standard" was Fred> mostly a software-based, voluntary standard, to prevent Fred> programs from reading past EOT. Of course, pretty much nothing Fred> prevented people from doing a sequence, and then Fred> writing more data :) Sometimes these things were enforced by narrowminded operating systems. With OS/360 you had to tell the OS (via JCL) which specific file -- by position, not name -- you wanted; to read foreign formats, never mind past tape marks, you'd need EXCP I/O. But at least you could and it was documented. Burroughs MCP was just about as bad, except there there wasn't a documented way to get around it. It *appeared* that you could do so by writing in unusual languages (DCALGOL or ESPOL) but certainly the latter was strictly prohibited to ordinary users... So I did manage to read DEC format magtapes on a 360 -- but never on a 6700... paul From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Oct 25 08:06:48 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book Message-ID: <041025090648.c91@splab.cas.neu.edu> Yes, Jay, that was me, the pdp-11 manual, including 11/45. Joe Heck From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Oct 25 09:01:03 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Dazzler demo program Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAED55@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Hello, all: Although I've been able to find copies of assorged Cromemco Dazzler-related software on bitsavers, I haven't been able to locate the demo that was used in the window of the BYTE Shop. I don't know the exact name of the program, so that might be hampering me a bit. Does anyone have a copy of this program in paper tape format that they could email me/point me to? Thanks. Rich From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Oct 25 09:07:52 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? Message-ID: Ethan wrote >Well... the easy answer is "whichever one we want". > >In fact, the one we have selected is the one that matches where our flights >come from so it's easy to synchronize operations. That means NZST/NZDT, >since our flights come from McMurdo, and their flights come from Christchurch, >NZ (yes, we are at GMT+13 right now, and we _do_ observe daylight savings >time, even though the sun is up 24/7) > >-ethan > Your daylight savings time process seems to fail since you have so many months when the sun doesn't come up and you are unable to use some of the saved daylight. Mike From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Oct 25 09:28:10 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Some PDP-11 info (was Re: C compilers for RSTS/E?) In-Reply-To: <16764.6227.203000.104808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4179CC26.mailOBY17SDJC@gtoal.com> <16762.38739.955526.537632@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <417B2D57.6080902@compsys.to> <16764.6227.203000.104808@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <417D0D7A.7030405@compsys.to> > Paul Koning wrote: > Jerome> PIC is standard in the USR since it moves up and down in > Jerome> memory ALL the time. So I do not understand why you even > Jerome> mention the PIC aspect, let alone that something special > Jerome> needed to be done, although perhaps with overlays, something > Jerome> extra was required. On the other hand, device drivers which > Jerome> execute their overlays within the USR buffer do that all the > Jerome> time. >Memory is a bit rusty, but I think what I did was to define an overlay >buffer (probably one or two blocks long) essentially as part of RMON. >So displacements from overlays to RMON would be constant, no matter >where RMON was loaded. Taking advantage of that saves space, because >you can reference RMON data and code without having to do it PICly -- >just use PC relative addressing. However, that requires an assembler >that can be told "this code might link at X, but it will execute at >RMOVBF". > > Jerome Fine replies: MACRO-11 is extremely flexible and as long as the person writing the code is able to tell MACRO-11 that the code is in a different PSECT, MACRO-11 behaves correctly. Based on what you are saying, since the buffer resides in RMON, even though the code still MUST be PIC since RMON loads into a variable address range (because the resident device driver is always located at the top of memory - and is variable in size dependent on which device driver is used), the linker is able to figure out differences between different PSECTS since that aspect is part of how PDP-11 instructions work. The KEY point is that the linker can't figure out an actual address, but must use execution time code based on the current PC counter. Macros such as .Addr help a lot! None of the above is saying that your statements about PIC are incorrect, only that all of the USR and RMON are that way in any case. The more important question I have not asked is how many words of memory (or blocks within the USR less the extra buffer in RMON) were saved. For those RT-11 users who are not aware, the USR is always an exact multiple of 512 bytes or an even number of blocks. Not sure why, but that is the way the code needs to be. For RT11FB, the USR is always 10 blocks while for RT11XM, the usual size is 12 blocks. How were those figures changed? PLUS, since the USR in RT11XM is resident, there must have been a time penalty. Was that a problem? > Jerome> The only aspect I see a being a REAL difficulty is that it is > Jerome> on hard copy. Any idea how many pages. >2-3 inches of line printer output? > > That seems about 100 to 150 pages which is not excessive. I would certainly pay to have them duplicated and mailed via snail mail if you were willing. What I am MOST interested in is how you managed to handle NON-contiguous files. Since the CSWs (Channel Status Words) for each open file have no method of "seeing" more than one file segment, was there a limit to the number of file segments allowed and where was the information stored? ALSO, for programs which needed to .SAVESTATUS and .REOPEN files, where and how was the extra information saved? I would think that the data for the segments was actually a pointer, but that would then require the information to be saved somewhere and that part I do not understand!!!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 25 09:52:45 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book References: <041025090648.c91@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <002801c4baa2$6dc76970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > Yes, Jay, that was me, the pdp-11 manual, including 11/45. I thought I had sent something about the 11/45 book some time ago, my apologies. Bear with me because I'm fairly green with regards to dec gear. There seems to be lots of "dec handbooks" floating around that cover various models, some of them that cover a given model seem to have different covers so I'm not sure what is for what so to speak. I do know that I have a "PDP11 Processor Handbook" for the "04/34/45/55/60" copyright 1978. If what you have is the same thing, I'm all set. If not, I'd be interested :) Regards, Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 10:47:47 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: looking for pdp-11 assembler book In-Reply-To: <002801c4baa2$6dc76970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <041025090648.c91@splab.cas.neu.edu> <002801c4baa2$6dc76970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >Bear with me because I'm fairly green with regards to dec gear. >There seems to be lots of "dec handbooks" floating around that cover >various models, some of them that cover a given model seem to have >different covers so I'm not sure what is for what so to speak. Different years publications covered different models. Generally speaking the handbook that is the newest that covers the model you're interested in is the best, though this isn't always true. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From paulpenn at knology.net Mon Oct 25 10:51:33 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Magenta Martini, was Dazzler demo program References: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAED55@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: <004b01c4baaa$80c83e70$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Richard wrote: > ...I haven't been able to locate the demo that was used in the window > of the BYTE Shop. It was called "Magenta Martini", if that helps. Made a huge splash in the monochrome world of computers at the time. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Oct 25 11:14:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Difference 23512 and 27512 Eprom Message-ID: <200410251614.JAA14434@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Stefan Sorry I didn't get back to you. Things got busy and I've been away from the net over the weekend. It looks like you need to make an adapter to at least disconnect Pin 22 so the VPP level can't get to the chips pin. The mask ROMs may have any of the 4 configurations for pins 20 and 22. I would try first just disconnecting 22 from the test side and connecting the chips pin 22 to pin 20. This assumes that the mask ROM uses the same selects as the EPROM does. I'd do that as the first try. Does anyone remember which pin they pull high on to check the manufacture ID. I think it was A11 but I'm not all that sure. It would be a good Idea to stack two resistors of about 1K in series with this lead. One should place a diode to VCC ( pin 28 ) to the junction of the two resistors with the band towards VCC. This will protect the part against any ID test voltage that might be used. It would still allow the address to pass. Dwight >From: birs23@zeelandnet.nl > >You can find that here : >http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/holtek/ht23c256.txt > >For a 27256 you can look here : >http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/giicm/27512.txt > >Cheers, > >Stefan > >At 23:09 22-10-2004, you wrote: >>Hi >> I guess the next thing is to find a pinout for >>the 23512 to see if they have a select that is inverted >>that might need to be patched around to read on >>a standard programmer. >>Dwight >> >> >From: birs23@zeelandnet.nl >> > >> >Dwight, not missing the discussion ;-) >> > >> >At 19:15 22-10-2004, you wrote: >> > >> >> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >> I know very little about electronics and eproms so this question >> might be >> >> >> really easy. I would like to know what the difference is between a >> 23512 >> >> >> eprom and a 27512 and if there are any differences if its possible to >> >> make >> >> > >> >> >I thought the 23512 was the mask-programmed part (not an EPROM), and is >> >> >otherwise the same device. You should be able to read it (unless your >> >> >programmer tries to be clever and read the manufacturer's ID word, etc). >> >> > >> >> >-tony >> >> > >> >> >> >>Hi Tony >> >> I think you are right about the 23xxx being mask versions. >> >>The problem with the newer EPROM parts is that they do not >> >>require pulsing of the programming voltage. Many programmers >> >>simply leave the programming voltage high while reading or >> >>verifying. This is real bad for mask parts. Also, most mask >> >>parts use the programming voltage pin as another select. >> >>This means that it may need to be in the opposite state that, >> >>even a programmer that allows setting of the program voltage, >> >>may not be in the right state to read. >> >> Also, I think this fellow is off the list and doesn't realize >> >>that he is talking to a list. I suspect he is missing our >> >>conversations related to his issue. >> >>Dwight >> > >> > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 25 11:55:11 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:13 2005 Subject: Sun 3/180 help requested Message-ID: <200410251155.11591.pat@computer-refuge.org> (I sent this first to the rescue at sunhelp list, but figure people here might be of more help with older machines.) So, I've tried booting my Sun 3/180, and can't get it to work. With the switch set to "diag" on the back, I get the following output: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boot PROM Selftest PROM Checksum Test DVMA Reg Test Context Reg Test Segment Map Wr/Rd Test Segment Map Address Test Page Map Test Memory Path Data Test NXM Bus Error Test Interrupt Test TOD Clock Interrupt Test MMU Access Bit Test MMU Access/Modify Bit Test MMU Invalid Page Test MMU Protected Page Test Parity Test Err 9: Bad parity should cause nmi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, it suggests there's a problem with the CPU board. Does anyone have a spare 3/180 or 3/280+memory laying around? Alternatively, I could probably try to replace the "broken chip", assuming I can find a replacement, and a decent enough documentation to see what's wrong. And, yes I've already tried pulling out the other memory board in the system, all the RAM that's left is (soldered) on the CPU board. I have a feeling it's not the memory, however, which is the problem. So, if anyone has something I could use - either documentation or hardware - that would be much appreciated. : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Oct 25 12:18:18 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Magenta Martini, was Dazzler demo program Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAED69@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Paul: Thanks -- that's exactly what I was looking for. Bitsavers.org has a copy of that tape on-line. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul A. Pennington Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Magenta Martini, was Dazzler demo program Richard wrote: > ...I haven't been able to locate the demo that was used in the window > of the BYTE Shop. It was called "Magenta Martini", if that helps. Made a huge splash in the monochrome world of computers at the time. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 25 12:46:11 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted Message-ID: <001501c4baba$915c5f90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I could have sworn I had a case of blank tape reels for my facit punch. Can't seem to find them, but I can find a bunch of blank fan-fold tape so maybe that's what I was thinking of :\ Anyone have some reels of blank paper tape for a facit punch they'd care to trade/sell for? I'm looking for an initial stock of maybe 8 reels. Jay West From aek at spies.com Mon Oct 25 13:56:36 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted Message-ID: <20041025185636.D03D440D0@spies.com> Anyone have some reels of blank paper tape for a facit punch they'd care to trade/sell for? -- Western Numerical Controls http://www.westnc.com/paptape.html#tty I would suggest unoiled dark blue. Black has a high carbon content which is bad for punches. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Oct 25 14:10:45 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: vax hardware handbook Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20041025200314.066ceec0@albert> This talk of software handbooks reminded me... I have a "VAX Hardware Handbook 1982-1983". (Copyright 1982.) Covers the 11/730, 11/750 and 11/780 (at least, going off the chapter sections.) It's in pretty good condition for it's age. I'm never going to have a use for it, so it's Free to anybody who wants it - just cover postage to your neck of the woods. (I'm in the UK.) Rob. -- Random plug: www.russianglass.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 25 14:18:35 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: KA640 TM In-Reply-To: <417C07E1.1030003@microvax.org> Message-ID: <000f01c4bac7$6cd2a960$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Hi - does anybody know of any copies of the KA640 Tech Manual > online? I > think i've got a blown DSSI picofuse* and i'd like to have a > casual flip > through the manual whilst i'm away from the system. > > I've searched Manx and poked Google, both turned up nothing. I don't think I've seen a KA640 TM, although I'm pretty sure that there is a manual with the appropriate part number (so it does exist). You could get Manx to point you at any of the contemporary VAX 4000 machines (start with a VAX 4000-200 or VAX 4000-300, both of which should have plenty of TM and MM available) and see if that helps. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 25 18:03:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted In-Reply-To: <001501c4baba$915c5f90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001501c4baba$915c5f90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > Anyone have some reels of blank paper tape for a facit punch they'd care to > trade/sell for? I'm looking for an initial stock of maybe 8 reels. www.westnc.com used to sell them. They're definitely deprecating the paper supplies last time I looked, prices were up 8X from my last purchase (which I wish now had been larger...) From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 25 18:14:41 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Got Written Up in Magazine Message-ID: <016801c4bae8$69279fc0$09406b43@66067007> For those of you that collect gaming systems also, I was this months Collector's Spotlight person in the VIDEO GAME COLLECTOR #2 issue. Check it out and excuse the bad picture my wife took of me. From tomj at wps.com Mon Oct 25 18:45:46 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: GOPHER Message-ID: It's got to be 10 years old now, right? gopherspace was wonderful, a brilliant use of the internet besides email. Too bad for gopher that http was better. I long ago took down my gopher server, and it seems it's largely disappeared from the net, even wiretap.spies.com appears empty in my browser (firefox) which tries to render it as html! Besides a few flat-earthers ("Bring Back Gopher!") it's largely disappeared. Anyone on this list still run one? What's the best client to use? Here's a good quick ref on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_protocol From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 19:39:23 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: from "Tom Jennings" at Oct 25, 2004 04:45:46 PM Message-ID: <200410260039.i9Q0dO6P027960@onyx.spiritone.com> > Anyone on this list still run one? What's the best client to use? No, but I've been tempted. No idea what client to use these days, I don't even remember what I used to use :^( Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 25 20:27:00 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: HP 1000 M-series on gov liquidation Message-ID: <002901c4bafa$e4490ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> There was some talk about the various lots of HP 1000 M series boxes on gov. liquidation. I just wanted to let folks on the list know that I was going for the lot with three cpu's in it. That leaves another lot with 6 cpus, and a third lot with 8 cpus, in case anyone wants some for themselves. I was going to get one of the larger lots, but it turns out the lot of 3 will probably be the best one for me at this time and I'll probably keep all 3 cpus. Soooo if anyone is going for some of those M series, the 6 or 8 count lots look better. Yeah, that's the ticket. *GRIN* Jay From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 25 22:03:05 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: HP 1000 M-series on gov liquidation In-Reply-To: <002901c4bafa$e4490ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > There was some talk about the various lots of HP 1000 M series boxes on gov. > liquidation. I just wanted to let folks on the list know that I was going > for the lot with three cpu's in it. That leaves another lot with 6 cpus, and > a third lot with 8 cpus, in case anyone wants some for themselves. I was > going to get one of the larger lots, but it turns out the lot of 3 will > probably be the best one for me at this time and I'll probably keep all 3 > cpus. > > Soooo if anyone is going for some of those M series, the 6 or 8 count lots > look better. Yeah, that's the ticket. *GRIN* > > Jay > > Jeez, if there was just some way to ship them that didn't cost arm+leg I'd bid on one of the other lots. Is there anyone in VA that could pick them up? Be a shame for 16 bit Blinkinlights minis to get scrapped... Peter Wallace From vcf at siconic.com Mon Oct 25 14:57:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041023094338.108355f0@pc> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > At 10:57 PM 10/22/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >To that end, this looks promising: > >http://www.masterbooter.com/main/news.php?lang=en > > On its utility page, there is 'mrfloppy', a raw image of a > boot floppy to start the boot loader. Could be handy, could've > saved my bacon a week ago. > > - John > > P.S. What flavor pie? Lemon, please. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wacarder at usit.net Mon Oct 25 23:06:55 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: PDP-11/40 XXDP diagnostics Message-ID: Does anyone out there have the diagnostics for a PDP-11/40 or diags for MM11-UP Core Memory? Or even a list of which XXDP diags are the correct ones for the 11/40 and for the MM11-UP? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ashley From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Oct 26 00:56:20 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: PDP-11/40 XXDP diagnostics Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111336C@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Ashley, on www.pdp-11.nl in the left menu, click on the *folder* "PDP-11/35". A tree structure opens. Click on the link "CPU information". At the bottom of the page that opens are the XXDP diags for the 11/40. Clicking on the links before each of them gives a short description. You can also click on "XXDP" in the left menu, and from the page that opens, click on the link "11/40 processor and options". Must check at home if I have descriptions of the MM11-xP diags. Sorry, can't (at the moment) help with .BIN's (no power available yet). - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > Sent: dinsdag 26 oktober 2004 6:07 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/40 XXDP diagnostics > > Does anyone out there have the diagnostics for a > PDP-11/40 or diags for MM11-UP Core Memory? Or > even a list of which XXDP diags are the correct > ones for the 11/40 and for the MM11-UP? > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Ashley From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 26 10:30:40 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Fw: Vintage Computer Equipment Message-ID: <006201c4bb70$c1df61b0$23406b43@66067007> I got this email the other day and replied back to the guy that I could not use the machines that he has listed but would pass it on to others. Soon if anyone on the list is interested contact him directly. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 2:58 PM Subject: Vintage Computer Equipment >I have a collection of IBM based units, in good and operating condition. > Computer models 8088, 286 and 386 > Monitors > Keyboards > Hard Drives > Memory > Modems > Various Cards > Related Books and Manuals > Could you please direct me to someone who might be interested in Vintage > Computer Equipment? Will you please "reply" to this email? > Thank you, Ray > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 08:57:33 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software? In-Reply-To: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026095733.00957570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have some. Somewhere. Dave Mabry should also have some. Joe At 03:37 PM 10/21/04 -0700, Glen Slick wrote: >Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an Intel >iPDS 100? > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 10:02:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <16759.56376.722568.4502@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:56 AM 10/21/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: > > >> Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going > >> unnoticed. > Cameron> This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for > Cameron> those silica gel desiccators? Those might be a little > Cameron> insurance and they seem inexpensive, but I need a source in > Cameron> bulk. > >You mean a large quantity of little silicagel packages, or a large >quantity in one bulk package? > >Try Google... I found one company I recognize: Cole-Parmer, 5 kg >silicagel, $109. Ouch! Expensive. Try Damp-rid or a similar product from your local grocery store. It's made to be used in closets to remove the dampness to prevent mold and mildew on clothing. I believe that it's mainly Calcium Cloride which is very hydroscopic. I've found lots of silica gel around militry surplus places. The military loves the stuff. They pack it in just about everything to keep it dry and prevent mold, mildew and corrision. If you can only find used stuff it may still be usefull. Some types of these drying agents can be baked to remove the absorbed moisture and then be reused. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 08:52:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: Altair hard disk system In-Reply-To: <000901c4b884$8e0bfa40$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026095255.00955e70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Mike Haas has one along with the Altair that it came with. He should have the docs for it. Joe At 06:14 PM 10/22/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all: > > I found this on eBay today: > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5133018533& >rd=1 > > Does anyone have any information on this? This is the first time >I've seen this unit. Maybe something to emulate... > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 09:51:45 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:14 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 In-Reply-To: <43FDFD6E-23C2-11D9-A755-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026105145.00957810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:35 PM 10/21/04 -0700, you wrote: > >On Oct 21, 2004, at 2:59 PM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>> From: "Ron Hudson" >>> >>> I just got some HP calculators! >>> >>> Now I have some questions :^) >>> >>> --Anyone have a spare manual for either? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Go buy the CD manual set from the HP calculator museum or else go to E-bay and be ready to pay the collector's price for an original. >>> >>> --Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? >>> (it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) Yes. Replace the cells with other nicad cells. Forget LiIon, NiMH and all the other types. Buy GOOD NiCads and they'll last for many years. My personal preference is the >>>>>>>>>> Japanese made <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Sanyo batteries. Don't let them substitute the Mexican made Sanyos or Chinese made trash!!!!! Don't let them tell you that even the Japanese marked batteries are made in Mexico of that the Mexican made bateries are the same as the Japanese made ones, THEY'RE NOT! FWIW I have a set of Sanyos that I bought in Thailand in 1974 that are still useable. >>> >>> --Anyone have any pointers on cleaning up leaked nicad crystals? >>> what is that stuff anyway? The leaked electrolyte is potassium hydroxide. The blue corrsion is double carbonate salt of copper (from the battery contacts) and potassium. I forget the exact chemical formula but it's something like CuKCO3. The hydroxide reacts with carbon dioxide in the air and forms a carbonate. The best thing that I've found to clean it up is Lime-Away. It's a product that's sold in the gorgery stores here in the US and is used to clean up lime and mineral deposits/stains in sinks, showers, toilets, etc. The main ingrediant in it is phosphoric acid. Put it on full strength and let it soak for a few minutes, then scrub it (I use an old toothbrush) to make sure all the corrision is removed then wash well with clean water. I scrub it while rinsing to make sure that I get ALL of the Lime-Away out. Then dry WELL. If you don't get all the Lime-Away out and dry it well it makes purple stains on the gold contacts when you apply electric power. Joe >> >> Most likely potasium hydroxide or similar base. You need to first >> wash with water, then 50% mix of white distilled vinegar followed >> by a rinse and dry. >> >>> >>> I do have cases and power suplies. >>> >>> -- I took apart the 25's battery pack and replaced the nicads with >>> nickel metal hydride cells (the same ones I use in my camera) >> >> Not a good idea. Nickle metal hydrides need different types of >> charging. The won't last long with a NiCad charging circuit. > >I won't charge them in the calculator, they are regular AA cells so I >can remove them and put them in a proper charger. :^) > > >> >>> >>> -- Is is ok to run the 55 on wall power supply without a battery >>> pack installed? >> >> Don't know. You should be able to find NiCads to replace. >> Check out JameCo. Also, we have a place called Batteries Plus >> that will weld together NiCad stacks. >> Dwight >> >>> >>> >>> Will trade the 55+case+powersupply+leakybatteries(in a ziplock bag) >>> for complete set of docs for the 25 + 1 good application book, >>> preferably games :^) >>> >>> >> >> > > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 26 06:16:26 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: from Tom Jennings at "Oct 25, 4 04:45:46 pm" Message-ID: <200410261116.EAA10766@floodgap.com> > I long ago took down my gopher server, and it seems it's largely > disappeared from the net, even wiretap.spies.com appears empty > in my browser (firefox) which tries to render it as html! > > Besides a few flat-earthers ("Bring Back Gopher!") it's largely > disappeared. > > Anyone on this list still run one? What's the best client to use? Oh, I have a few things in gopherspace: Floodgap Public Gopher Proxy: http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/ Floodgap Gopher (and Veronica-2) gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ Client-wise, embarrassingly, Lynx does the best job. Most of the Mozilla derivates don't handle the i itemtype, which is not standards-based but is increasingly common. I list some of the gotchas on the Proxy page, although there is some work on the Mozilla front to fix the deficiencies and it may yet get better. Old Netscape 4.8 and earlier are reasonably functional. I've been very tempted as a cross-platform project to reinvent the wheel and bring back a current gopher client on current codebases. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Space is limited/In a haiku so it's hard/To finish what you - Tristan Miller From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 26 06:14:35 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-10-25 at 16:45 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > It's got to be 10 years old now, right? Yep. > gopherspace was wonderful, a brilliant use of the internet > besides email. Too bad for gopher that http was better. Ok, vague memories here. I remember using gopher circa 1993 and also something called Archie. Was Archie just a name for specific gopher service, or a totally different animal? > Anyone on this list still run one? No, but I'll have to add it to the list of information systems to run at the museum one day. > What's the best client to use? I don't know what the choice is. I would have been using a client on a machine running SunOS way back when and just remember starting it with 'gopher' from the shell :-) Maybe SunOS shipped with its own client. Actually I do remember using gopher and ftp a lot for information and file access, then this new-fangled www came along and I just thought 'big deal' :-) cheers Jules From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Oct 26 08:19:11 2004 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Magenta Martini, was Dazzler demo program Message-ID: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAED78@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Paul: Thanks for the name of the program. Bitsavers has that tape but no manual. Does any have the loading instructions for Cromemco Magenta Martini? Thanks. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul A. Pennington Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Magenta Martini, was Dazzler demo program Richard wrote: > ...I haven't been able to locate the demo that was used in the window > of the BYTE Shop. It was called "Magenta Martini", if that helps. Made a huge splash in the monochrome world of computers at the time. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Oct 26 01:44:23 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041026064423.GA9322@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:07:52AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > Your daylight savings time process seems to fail since you have so many > months when the sun doesn't come up and you are unable to use some of > the saved daylight. It spoils if you try to keep it that long... you have to use it the same day or else. :-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Oct-2004 06:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -57.4 F (-49.7 C) Windchill -84.3 F (-64.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7 kts Grid 050 Barometer 674.1 mb (10848. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 04:17:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Dazzler demo program In-Reply-To: <69DBC74E5784D6119BEA0090271EB8E501EAED55@mail10.congressfinancial.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Cini, Richard wrote: > Hello, all: > > Although I've been able to find copies of assorged Cromemco > Dazzler-related software on bitsavers, I haven't been able to locate the > demo that was used in the window of the BYTE Shop. I don't know the exact > name of the program, so that might be hampering me a bit. > > Does anyone have a copy of this program in paper tape format that > they could email me/point me to? A guy claiming to be the one who designed the Dazzler will be a vendor at the upcoming VCF. He'll be bringing a bunch of Cromemco hardware including some Dazzler's, and my guess is he'll have the software (perhaps even running as the demo). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Oct 26 12:12:38 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> At 11:56 AM 10/21/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> >> Moisture has a habit of getting into funny places and going >> >> unnoticed. Cameron> This reminds me. Anyone in the States know a source for Cameron> those silica gel desiccators? Those might be a little Cameron> insurance and they seem inexpensive, but I need a source in Cameron> bulk. >> You mean a large quantity of little silicagel packages, or a large >> quantity in one bulk package? >> >> Try Google... I found one company I recognize: Cole-Parmer, 5 kg >> silicagel, $109. Joe> Ouch! Expensive. Try Damp-rid or a similar product from your Joe> local grocery store. It's made to be used in closets to remove Joe> the dampness to prevent mold and mildew on clothing. I believe Joe> that it's mainly Calcium Cloride which is very hydroscopic. If it's calcium chloride you want, try snow melting "salt" -- that's often CaCl. Joe> I've found lots of silica gel around militry surplus places. The Joe> military loves the stuff. They pack it in just about everything Joe> to keep it dry and prevent mold, mildew and corrision. If you Joe> can only find used stuff it may still be usefull. Some types of Joe> these drying agents can be baked to remove the absorbed moisture Joe> and then be reused. Right. Silicagel is one of those. I don't think calcium chloride is, though -- but I'm not positive. Not too long ago I bought a mil surplus item (a throat microphone). It came packaged in the original box, coated in olive drab paraffin, date coded 1942 or so. Inside was a large (several ounces) bag of silicagel along with the microphone -- both bone dry after half a century. Good work by the people at the Chicago depot of the Signal Corps. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 12:27:34 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122344.1029f430@pc> At 06:14 AM 10/26/2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >Ok, vague memories here. I remember using gopher circa 1993 and also >something called Archie. Was Archie just a name for specific gopher >service, or a totally different animal? Different animal. Archie searched ftp archives : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_search_engine - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 12:22:07 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041023094338.108355f0@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122143.100684c0@pc> At 02:57 PM 10/25/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> P.S. What flavor pie? > >Lemon, please. Won't that sting? Or is that the point? - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 26 12:34:02 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: xearth (was: Re: Linux OS) In-Reply-To: <8A09DFDD-256A-11D9-A5C7-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <1098017302.3170.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <41727C4B.3040007@frixxon.co.uk> <41733FA4.3030508@mdrconsult.com> <1098100009.4868.19.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041018174111.GE13257@bos7.spole.gov> <1098124337.4868.77.camel@weka.localdomain> <8A09DFDD-256A-11D9-A5C7-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <1098812042.7952.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-24 at 13:12 +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > Have a look at OSXplanet (http://otte.ucsc.edu/~gabriel/osxplanet.html) > for a more modern version (that knows about the poles and lots of other > things). Fantastic - thanks! That led me to xplanet and celestia: http://xplanet.sourceforge.net/ http://celestia.sourceforge.net/ both of which look rather awesome. Now to work out if the museum has any classic hardware with enough CPU power and framebuffer ability to run them... I think the SGI Indy's the only machine we've got with anything better than an 8 bit colour display, but I'd probably have to use it as a remote display to something with a little more horsepower. Hmmm... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 26 12:35:07 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? In-Reply-To: <20041026064423.GA9322@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041026064423.GA9322@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1098812107.7954.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 06:44 +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:07:52AM -0500, McFadden, Mike wrote: > > Your daylight savings time process seems to fail since you have so many > > months when the sun doesn't come up and you are unable to use some of > > the saved daylight. > > It spoils if you try to keep it that long... you have to use it the same > day or else. :-) It doesn't keep well in the world's biggest fridge? From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 12:55:29 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> At 12:12 PM 10/26/2004, Paul Koning wrote: >If it's calcium chloride you want, try snow melting "salt" -- that's >often CaCl. >Right. Silicagel is one of those. I don't think calcium chloride is, >though -- but I'm not positive. Yes, but a mixture of NaCl and CaCl will happily suck up water from the air until turns into a rich, gooey, metal-eating mess. A silicate solution would be less reactive, I think, and if it dried, it's almost a protectant. "Water glass" was once a common way to extend the shelf life of eggs, as it prevented evaporation through the shell. - John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 26 13:05:30 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200410261807.OAA10604@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I remember using gopher circa 1993 and also something called Archie. > Was Archie just a name for specific gopher service, or a totally > different animal? The latter. It was basically a search engine that indexed anonymously-FTPable file names (not contents). (I know because I knew the creators; I even had the honour to be slightly involved - I gave them an algorithm for doing fast string searches.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 14:27:01 2004 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Sun Tops Flashtalk Cards/Adapters In-Reply-To: <200410161440.i9GEdfdb049902@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20041026192701.88171.qmail@web13422.mail.yahoo.com> I've got a box full of (4 or 5) mixed sets of TOPS products. At least one of each of the following: Tops FlashTalk Card for the PC Tops FlashTalk Adapter for the Mac TOPS Software Probably more than a couple of each. If anyone is interested (looking for a few $$ not much, plus S/H.. Or a trade for something cool...), e-mail me off line. I also have at least one License to a Version 4 of Lantastic (and I can throw in an old ISA NE2000 Card compatible with it) in the box. Never used. Also for a small consideration (or something cool) and the shipping. Just looking to clear out the closet and get a couple of bucks towards upgrading my Mac G4 Tower to a faster processor. Regards, Al Hartman __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 14:49:09 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: South Pole. (was: "System Technology Associates"? In-Reply-To: <20041026064423.GA9322@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20041026064423.GA9322@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20041026124802.F97268@shell.lmi.net> > > Your daylight savings time process seems to fail since you have so many > > months when the sun doesn't come up and you are unable to use some of > > the saved daylight. On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It spoils if you try to keep it that long... Even if you keep it cold? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 15:04:40 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041026130405.Q97268@shell.lmi.net> Even www is now "on-topic" From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 26 15:31:16 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026130405.Q97268@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> I know this has been discussed before, but here's my two cents... the 10-year rule is (in my opinion) an obsolete metric. I really think we should be using at least a 15-year or 20-year metric. A 15-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1989 -- Windows, but not yet 3.0; and certainly not the Web. A 20-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1984 -- the Mac's debut, etc. Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! --- Fred Cisin wrote: > Even www is now "on-topic" > > > > > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 575 readers and counting! From cb at mythtech.net Tue Oct 26 15:36:40 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER Message-ID: >Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! Its all about the Pentiums! (screamed in a good Weird Al doing Puff-Daddy voice) -chris From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Oct 26 15:37:06 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> Message-ID: <57352.67.36.83.25.1098823026.squirrel@67.36.83.25> What brand names/model numbers are on the disk enclosures? MTI? Goliath? Anything like that? Curious. What I REALLY want to know is how many SCSI drives are in the drive enclosures, how many drives total you have, and what the capacity of the individual drives are. If they are 18gb or 36gb or larger, and SCA connector (single mini-D connector on the drive itself within the carrier that slides into the drive enclosure) I'd be potentially interested. -T > I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by Compaq: > three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks modular > data router. > > eBay prices are all over the map: some sellers trying to > unload them for $1000+, but the real auctions are going for > less than $50 for each box. Each slot in the hub needs an > optical transceiver; these seem to sell for $10 each. > Cables? Many offered, few bidders. FC hard drives? $20 each. > > This stuff cost a fortune not so long ago. Why is it > rock-bottom now? Will it ever be attractive to hobbyists? > > - John > From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 26 15:43:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410261116.EAA10766@floodgap.com> References: <200410261116.EAA10766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Oh, I have a few things in gopherspace: > > Floodgap Public Gopher Proxy: > http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/ > > Floodgap Gopher (and Veronica-2) > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ Wow! Thanks for running this! It's a real blast of the past. I think the aesthetic hasn't yet become as alien as it will be, so it may take some time to be appreciated by people who "weren't there" when it was new. Hopefully there will be a few around still when that's true. > Client-wise, embarrassingly, Lynx does the best job. Embarrassing for firefox et al, but lynx is a great client. I use it once a month or so, when I'm in some peculiar corner and need to get through a small hole in the universe. THere's always a place for a lightweight client! > Most of the Mozilla > derivates don't handle the i itemtype, which is not standards-based but is > increasingly common. I list some of the gotchas on the Proxy page, although > there is some work on the Mozilla front to fix the deficiencies and it may > yet get better. Old Netscape 4.8 and earlier are reasonably functional. Well, I managed to not delete this over the years: tomj@fiche:~/Projects-of-the-past/1994/local/src ls archie/ ghostscript/ lynx/ pine/ tpage/ x10/ zip/ elm/ gopher/ metamail/ popper/ unzip/ xarchie/ zmodem/ fone/ lha/ pgp/ system/ watcher/ xpaint/ netBSD? FreeBSD? BSDi? I don't have the original TARs, just their contents. Timestamps appear intact, somehow. A 1994 old QIC-40 tape, found in Gilmore's basement, had all this stuff on it, and John was able to snarf it off and !email! it to me. > I've been very tempted as a cross-platform project to reinvent the wheel > and bring back a current gopher client on current codebases. Keep illuminating those parchment scrolls! Someone will read them one day! :-) Maybe I could write a script to munge my html tree to gopherspace, and put the port up for service again. I'll think on this one. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 26 15:52:10 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! > > Its all about the Pentiums! (screamed in a good Weird Al doing Puff-Daddy > voice) > *proudly holds up a 40 pin DIP Dorito* g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Oct 26 15:45:50 2004 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: software via radio In-Reply-To: <200410241738.SAA04799@citadel.metropolis.local> References: Your message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:09:22 -0000." <1098630562.5143.32.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410241738.SAA04799@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <57224.67.36.83.25.1098823550.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Talk about off-topic: Us hams used to do a lot of passing programs around by radio. Packet radio, loosely based on AX.25, is a 300 or 2400 baud, error-check-and-retransmit protocol that is used for mail, bulletin boards, and transfer of... ...darn near anything. Typically used VHF or UHF on ham-only frequencies, e.g. 144 to 145 or something up in the 430 mHz area, popularity fell off quite a bit in recent years, until the advent of APRS. APRS is automatic position reporting reporting system, which is send using packet radio. A small handheld radio, a GPS or GPD chip, and a packet controller or controller chip, allows a public safety vehicle or event vehicle's location is constantly updated on all maps monitored by event or rescue coordinators. FYI. 73 de N9QQB (Tom) > Hi, > > julesrichardson said: > >> >> Was it this list where people were recently talking about receiving >> software via the radio? >> >> Apparently the UK service was called Basicode - I'm just slogging my way >> through a pile of documentation donated to the museum to sort out the >> useful stuff and stumbled across an apology letter from the BBC. Seems >> they'd moved transmission from Radio 1 VHF to Radio 1 MW and they didn't >> exactly tell people in advance :-) >> >> The letter's dated 18th October 1984. Seems that the data was >> transmitted as part of a radio programme called 'chip shop'. >> >> Now, I'm certain I remember seeing a manual about Basicode; I just left >> it in the pile at the museum that I'm yet to look through as it had >> 'basic' in the title and so didn't look immediately interesting :-) It >> was with a Dragon 32 machine (which also came with a lot of software), >> but whether any special hardware was needed I don't know. > > I'm pretty sure I've got a cassette of the TRS-80 version plus manual > somehere. It's big thing was the same Basic program would run on any > of the machines for which they produced a Basicode interpreter. > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 26 15:48:38 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <57352.67.36.83.25.1098823026.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Message-ID: <005101c4bb9d$2ba5c400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > What brand names/model numbers are on the disk enclosures? > MTI? Goliath? > Anything like that? Curious. > > What I REALLY want to know is how many SCSI drives are in the drive > enclosures, how many drives total you have, and what the > capacity of the > individual drives are. If they are 18gb or 36gb or larger, and SCA > connector (single mini-D connector on the drive itself within > the carrier > that slides into the drive enclosure) I'd be potentially interested. No idea about the Compaq stuff, but I picked up a FC disk the other day that was being discarded. I'd been told that "there's no such thing as a FC disk - they're all SCSI really". Well this one is a Seagate ST31820FC and has a 40-way (not 80-way) SCA connector on the back. Any chance that this is SCSI in disguise :-) If so I'll go nab a few of the 32GB ones for my VAXen, otherwise I get to try the 9GB SCSI LVD ones instead! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 26 15:58:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: So some of the sources are really old (U of M, 1991, 1992) so I put the whole bag of poop up at http://wps.com/temp/src/ gopher1, gopher2, gopherd, archie, xarchie, and a few other not that useful things. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 15:57:50 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041026130405.Q97268@shell.lmi.net> <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026155143.10058848@pc> At 03:31 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote: >I know this has been discussed before, but here's my two cents... the 10-year >rule is (in my opinion) an obsolete metric. I really think we should be using >at least a 15-year or 20-year metric. >A 15-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1989 -- Windows, but not yet 3.0; and >certainly not the Web. >A 20-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1984 -- the Mac's debut, etc. Gee, sort of like "oldies" and "classic rock". The nice thing about an oldies station is you only need around 1,200 songs. You want to lock the group to pre-1985? >Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! But why isn't that necessary? I recently had a need to read a 5 1/4 disk. A year or so ago, my main system's dual Teac 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 had bitten the dust and I never replaced it. I just added a spare 3 1/2. I started searching through the other half-dozen older PCs I had in the computer museum (aka basement)... I grew extremely frustrated as one after the other wouldn't boot. My efforts at preservation (that is, "save a pile" had failed. I didn't have a pressing need to use one on a regular basis, so they deteriorated. I was frustrated by other failed efforts: I'd saved a pile of known-working 5 1/4s, but failed to remember to inventory whether the PCs I'd saved (of various generations) had the right connector: edge or not, and I had no idea where I'd stored the adapters, so more frustration. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 16:02:19 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > I know this has been discussed before, but here's my two cents... the 10-year > rule is (in my opinion) an obsolete metric. I really think we should be using > at least a 15-year or 20-year metric. > A 15-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1989 -- Windows, but not yet 3.0; and > certainly not the Web. Windoze 3.0: May 22, 1990 WWW: 1989 Tim Berners-Lee > A 20-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1984 -- the Mac's debut, etc. Then let's go with 21 years. > Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! http://www.ox.compsoc.net/~swhite/history/pentium.html "The first Pentium Processors (the 60 and 66 MHz versions) were released by Intel on March 22, 1993. These chips contained the equivalent of 3.1 million transistors and achieved up to 100MIPS. Pictured here is the slightly newer and slightly faster 75MHz version. The Pentium Processor was Intel's successor to the i486 chips, and used features such as pipelining and larger L1 caches to significantly increase the performance of the chips when compared to the i486." If we are going to re-adjust the number of years to include/exclude, then let's just scrap the entire concept of a fixed number of years, and declare that classic computers ran until August 10, 1981 (the day before the IBM PC announcement). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dmabry at mich.com Tue Oct 26 16:02:36 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software?] Message-ID: <417EBB6C.1020209@mich.com> I'll send this again. Sorry to repeat, but it may have been missed. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software? Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:35 -0400 From: Dave Mabry To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> I have put together some teledisk images of system disks for the iPDS. I can e-mail them to you. You have to be able to run Teledisk on a PC with a 5 1/4" HD drive to create a boot diskette for the iPDS from the images. If you are game to try that, let me know and I'll e-mail you the image to try. They were created on a 16MHz 386SX machine, if that matters. Sometimes Teledisk is particular to the cpu it is running on. Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an > Intel iPDS 100? > > From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 26 16:04:12 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026130405.Q97268@shell.lmi.net> References: <1098789276.7954.6.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041026130405.Q97268@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Even www is now "on-topic" How true!! But since it's still around and thriving, it seems less on-topic, somehow. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 16:03:09 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <57352.67.36.83.25.1098823026.squirrel@67.36.83.25> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041024105856.12e84ce8@pc> <57352.67.36.83.25.1098823026.squirrel@67.36.83.25> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026160119.1005aab0@pc> At 03:37 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote: >What brand names/model numbers are on the disk enclosures? MTI? Goliath? >Anything like that? Curious. All Compaq. >What I REALLY want to know is how many SCSI drives are in the drive >enclosures, [...] and SCA >connector (single mini-D connector on the drive itself within the carrier >that slides into the drive enclosure) I'd be potentially interested. No drives, just these items: >> I recently inherited a stack of Fibre Channel gizmos made by Compaq: >> three x12 hubs, a tape controller, and a Storageworks modular >> data router. And I thought these would use FC drives, not SCA drives... although I bet there are ways to mix and match and carry SCSI over FC. - John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Oct 26 16:15:41 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <005101c4bb9d$2ba5c400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <57352.67.36.83.25.1098823026.squirrel@67.36.83.25> <005101c4bb9d$2ba5c400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <20041026211541.GA21548@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 09:48:38PM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > No idea about the Compaq stuff, but I picked up a FC disk the other > day that was being discarded. I'd been told that "there's no such thing > as a FC disk - they're all SCSI really". Well this one is a Seagate > ST31820FC and has a 40-way (not 80-way) SCA connector on the back. My first exposure to FC _drives_ (as opposed to enclosures with genuine SCSI drives and an external fiber link) was in 1997/1998... Seacrate, IIRC. I remember a funky connector that was pretty small... smaller than 40-pins even, but I'm not as sure of that detail. > Any chance that this is SCSI in disguise :-) If so I'll go nab > a few of the 32GB ones for my VAXen, otherwise I get to try > the 9GB SCSI LVD ones instead! FC drives are SCSI command protocol, serialized data rather than parallel (like a 50/68/80 pin drive), and some FC-oid physical layer/signals/voltages. I am not aware of a simple adapter to use an FC drive with an older machine. I have seen PCI and Sbus FC adapters. It might be possibly to cobble something up with one of those, but not with, say, an Adaptec 1540. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Oct-2004 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -57.3 F (-49.7 C) Windchill -90.2 F (-67.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.8 kts Grid 060 Barometer 674 mb (10852. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 16:20:21 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026160944.100cef50@pc> At 04:02 PM 10/26/2004, Fred Cisin wrote: >Windoze 3.0: May 22, 1990 >WWW: 1989 Tim Berners-Lee And Windows 1.0 in October 1985, and 2.0 was out in December 1987, I remember developing for it in 1989 or so. Yikes, I think I did GEM back in 1985 or so. - John From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 26 16:23:15 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) In-Reply-To: <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <417EC043.3090200@ecubics.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > If we are going to re-adjust the number of years to include/exclude, > then let's just scrap the entire concept of a fixed number of years, > and declare that classic computers ran until August 10, 1981 (the > day before the IBM PC announcement). Jut freeze it at 1984. Orwell, Oh well ;-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 26 16:25:58 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1098825958.7954.46.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 14:02 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) I thought the same thing :-) I'm sure people raise the ten year rule more often than used to happen on this list. I don't know why that is - I first joined 1998 or so and the ratio of on topic vs. OT was about the same as it is now (i.e. hardly any OT content) - that's pretty amazing considering the diversity of list members. Surely the fact there's cctech now makes it even better for those not wanting the odd OT post? Personally I don't see the problem at all; things kinda regulate themselves, and some pretty nice hardware has been made around the 10 year boundary - just not in the PC/Mac world IMHO (but I still wouldn't get upset at people posting such questions because it's still a fraction of total list traffic) Seriously, what's wrong with the way things are? I don't get it... cheers, Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 26 16:29:13 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: <20041026211541.GA21548@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <005201c4bba2$d6dcb0e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I am not aware of a simple adapter to use an FC drive with an > older machine. > I have seen PCI and Sbus FC adapters. It might be possibly > to cobble something > up with one of those, but not with, say, an Adaptec 1540. Me neither. I asked more in hope than in expectation! I guess the VAX will have to make do with a brace of 9GB disks (assuming that a SCA-to-50pin converter keeps it happy). The next generation of storage backends seem to be IDE (both PATA and, lately, SATA - at the cheap end, that is) so maybe in a few years time I'll get something I can drop into the Ultra as an upgrade! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 26 16:29:50 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <1098825958.7954.46.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041026212950.55639.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> I certainly didn't intend to sound like a complainer... just meant to observe that something's askew with our 10-year concept if we're talking about the web and 3.5-inch disks as "vintage". Since I collect (ahem) "vintage" handhelds, the 20-year concept works great for me, as 1984 was when a handheld first had handwriting recognition (the Casio PF-8000, almost a decade before the Newton). --- Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 14:02 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) > > I thought the same thing :-) > > I'm sure people raise the ten year rule more often than used to happen > on this list. I don't know why that is - I first joined 1998 or so and > the ratio of on topic vs. OT was about the same as it is now (i.e. > hardly any OT content) - that's pretty amazing considering the diversity > of list members. Surely the fact there's cctech now makes it even better > for those not wanting the odd OT post? > > Personally I don't see the problem at all; things kinda regulate > themselves, and some pretty nice hardware has been made around the 10 > year boundary - just not in the PC/Mac world IMHO (but I still wouldn't > get upset at people posting such questions because it's still a fraction > of total list traffic) > > Seriously, what's wrong with the way things are? I don't get it... > > cheers, > > Jules > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 585 readers and counting! From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 16:33:57 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software?] In-Reply-To: <417EBB6C.1020209@mich.com> References: <417EBB6C.1020209@mich.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026173340.02f9e590@mail.earthlink.net> already taken care of... At 05:02 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote: >I'll send this again. Sorry to repeat, but it may have been missed. > >-------- Original Message -------- >Subject: Re: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software? >Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:15:35 -0400 >From: Dave Mabry >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >References: <000501c4b7be$9153bd30$bbed1fac@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> > >I have put together some teledisk images of system disks for the iPDS. >I can e-mail them to you. You have to be able to run Teledisk on a PC >with a 5 1/4" HD drive to create a boot diskette for the iPDS from the >images. If you are game to try that, let me know and I'll e-mail you >the image to try. > >They were created on a 16MHz 386SX machine, if that matters. Sometimes >Teledisk is particular to the cpu it is running on. > >Glen Slick wrote: > >>Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an >>Intel iPDS 100? > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Oct 26 16:37:16 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) Message-ID: <20041026.143717.1260.20.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> But you know, that would leave out alot of cool machines that came after 1984-- 88k-based DG AViiON's, and SGI workstations, for example. On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:23:15 -0600 emanuel stiebler writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > > If we are going to re-adjust the number of years to > include/exclude, > > then let's just scrap the entire concept of a fixed number of > years, > > and declare that classic computers ran until August 10, 1981 (the > > day before the IBM PC announcement). > > Jut freeze it at 1984. > Orwell, Oh well ;-) > > > ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 26 16:47:08 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> <1098825958.7954.46.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:25 PM Subject: Re: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 14:02 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) > > I thought the same thing :-) > > I'm sure people raise the ten year rule more often than used to happen > on this list. I don't know why that is - I first joined 1998 or so and > the ratio of on topic vs. OT was about the same as it is now (i.e. > hardly any OT content) - that's pretty amazing considering the diversity > of list members. Surely the fact there's cctech now makes it even better > for those not wanting the odd OT post? > > Personally I don't see the problem at all; things kinda regulate > themselves, and some pretty nice hardware has been made around the 10 > year boundary - just not in the PC/Mac world IMHO (but I still wouldn't > get upset at people posting such questions because it's still a fraction > of total list traffic) > > Seriously, what's wrong with the way things are? I don't get it... > > cheers, > > Jules > You would be better off just making a note that MS Windows 3.0 or above questions as being OT. Making a cutoff date for the day the IBM XT came out would kill off allot of cool machines not even related to the PC (Atari ST, Amiga, C128, bunch of early Apple stuff etc). What is wrong with talking about esoteric OS and hardware for x86 systems other then windows like XENIX, other old and forgotten Unix, Desqview/X etc? Most people just don't want this list to turn into a "help me fix this common problem in Windows" resource. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 26 16:37:13 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel? In-Reply-To: "Antonio Carlini" "RE: Fibre Channel?" (Oct 26, 21:48) References: <005101c4bb9d$2ba5c400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <10410262237.ZM15104@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 26 2004, 21:48, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > What I REALLY want to know is how many SCSI drives are in the drive > > enclosures, how many drives total you have, and what the > > capacity of the > > individual drives are. If they are 18gb or 36gb or larger, and SCA > > connector (single mini-D connector on the drive itself within > > the carrier > > that slides into the drive enclosure) I'd be potentially interested. > > No idea about the Compaq stuff, but I picked up a FC disk the other > day that was being discarded. I'd been told that "there's no such thing > as a FC disk - they're all SCSI really". Well this one is a Seagate > ST31820FC and has a 40-way (not 80-way) SCA connector on the back. > > Any chance that this is SCSI in disguise :-) If so I'll go nab > a few of the 32GB ones for my VAXen, otherwise I get to try > the 9GB SCSI LVD ones instead! No, it's Fibre Channel. All my FC disks are like that, too, as the ones at work (almost all our main file storage is FC): 40-pin connector like a truncated SC. FC is like serial SCSI. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 26 17:16:47 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> <1098825958.7954.46.camel@weka.localdomain> <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> Message-ID: <26c11a64041026151665c2e34f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:47:08 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER > > > On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 14:02 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) > > > > I thought the same thing :-) > > > > I'm sure people raise the ten year rule more often than used to happen > > on this list. I don't know why that is - I first joined 1998 or so and > > the ratio of on topic vs. OT was about the same as it is now (i.e. > > hardly any OT content) - that's pretty amazing considering the diversity > > of list members. Surely the fact there's cctech now makes it even better > > for those not wanting the odd OT post? > > > > Personally I don't see the problem at all; things kinda regulate > > themselves, and some pretty nice hardware has been made around the 10 > > year boundary - just not in the PC/Mac world IMHO (but I still wouldn't > > get upset at people posting such questions because it's still a fraction > > of total list traffic) > > > > Seriously, what's wrong with the way things are? I don't get it... > > > > cheers, > > > > Jules > > > > You would be better off just making a note that MS Windows 3.0 or above > questions as being OT. Making a cutoff date for the day the IBM XT came out > would kill off allot of cool machines not even related to the PC (Atari ST, > Amiga, C128, bunch of early Apple stuff etc). > > What is wrong with talking about esoteric OS and hardware for x86 systems > other then windows like XENIX, other old and forgotten Unix, Desqview/X etc? > Most people just don't want this list to turn into a "help me fix this > common problem in Windows" resource. > > I agree with the help me fix this problem on windows. But some talk of windows should be allowed if revelent ie. problems with simh, emulators and serial console problems. I'm sure a lot of people on this list do use windows wether they like it or not. I thought the idea of cctalk and cctech was that cctalk allowed OT questions. Dan From tomj at wps.com Tue Oct 26 17:23:58 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) In-Reply-To: <417EC043.3090200@ecubics.com> References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> <417EC043.3090200@ecubics.com> Message-ID: If it could have been purchased in a retail store, new, I'm not interested in it. How's that for snotty!! (It's not actually a joke; I don't really care much for non-industrial/non-scientific stuff.) From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 09:33:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122143.100684c0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > At 02:57 PM 10/25/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> P.S. What flavor pie? > > > >Lemon, please. > > Won't that sting? Or is that the point? It's tastier. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 09:36:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > I know this has been discussed before, but here's my two cents... the 10-year > rule is (in my opinion) an obsolete metric. I really think we should be using > at least a 15-year or 20-year metric. > > A 15-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1989 -- Windows, but not yet 3.0; and > certainly not the Web. > > A 20-year-metric would put "vintage" at 1984 -- the Mac's debut, etc. > > Otherwise, we'll soon be talking about Pentiums! But you'll miss the BeBox, among others, plus all those cool handhelds you collect will be off-topic :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 26 17:26:31 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items" (Oct 26, 12:55) References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> Message-ID: <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 26 2004, 12:55, John Foust wrote: > At 12:12 PM 10/26/2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >If it's calcium chloride you want, try snow melting "salt" -- that's > >often CaCl. > >Right. Silicagel is one of those. I don't think calcium chloride is, > >though -- but I'm not positive. > > Yes, but a mixture of NaCl and CaCl will happily suck up water > from the air until turns into a rich, gooey, metal-eating mess. That's the CaCl in it, and there's usually not much. Calcium chloride is not merely hygroscopic but deliquescent. It's "use once" -- you can't really dry it off again, effectively. If you don't mind a liquid, concentrated sulphuric acid is a more active dessicant than either silca gel or calcium chloride ;-) Phosphorus pentoxide is good too, and doesn't get wet and sticky. Pricey, though! > A silicate solution would be less reactive, I think, and if > it dried, it's almost a protectant. "Water glass" was once a > common way to extend the shelf life of eggs, as it prevented > evaporation through the shell. For a different reason, though. There's a slow double-decomposition reaction between the calcium carbonate in the shell and the sodium silicate (water glass) which leaves a layer of relatively impermeable calcium silicate on the eggshell. Sodium silicate isn't a drying agent. The drying action of silica gel (silicon dioxide) is due to adsorbtion, a purely physical (and easily reversible) process. Water molecules stick to the surface of the silica. The granules are extremely porous on a microscopic scale so they can have quite a lot of water adhering to them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 17:33:19 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122143.100684c0@pc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026173247.05d56a08@pc> At 09:33 AM 10/26/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> Won't that sting? Or is that the point? >It's tastier. Avert your eyes, everyone! He's licking himself! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 17:40:08 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026173855.100323c8@pc> At 05:26 PM 10/26/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: >For a different reason, though. There's a slow double-decomposition >reaction between the calcium carbonate in the shell and the sodium >silicate (water glass) which leaves a layer of relatively impermeable >calcium silicate on the eggshell. Sodium silicate isn't a drying >agent. >The drying action of silica gel (silicon dioxide) is due to adsorbtion, That's what I get for posting to a list of known pedants without Googling beforehand to make myself look smarter than I am. :-) - John From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Oct 26 17:56:52 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: "System Technology Associates"? SDI-ESDI adapter In-Reply-To: <417C9225.8000205@mdrconsult.com> References: <41784D08.50907@mdrconsult.com> <20041022002128.GB14568@bos7.spole.gov> <417C9225.8000205@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20041026225652.GA21776@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Oct 25, 2004 at 12:41:57AM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > >Perhaps we have the same bridge card, but in a different enclosure? > > http://www.docsbox.net/RA8/ It's been many years since I cracked mine, but the boards are not obviously different. I wish I could tell you more about mine, but I literally just plugged in the SDI cable to a KDB50 (VAXBI), and *bam* - lotsa disk. I only opened it up because I was curious. I have no idea what I might have to do to format different ESDI drives on it. It just works. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Oct-2004 22:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -58.4 F (-50.2 C) Windchill -90.8 F (-68.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.3 kts Grid 055 Barometer 674 mb (10852. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 26 18:01:09 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:15 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items" (Oct 26, 17:40) References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026173855.100323c8@pc> Message-ID: <10410270001.ZM15210@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 26 2004, 17:40, John Foust wrote: > At 05:26 PM 10/26/2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: [stuff] > That's what I get for posting to a list of known pedants without Googling > beforehand to make myself look smarter than I am. :-) LOL! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dj.taylor at starpower.net Sat Oct 23 11:22:43 2004 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Boot Rom for KDF11-BA In-Reply-To: <10410162010.ZM4025@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20041010.205201.22523.1252062@webmail16.lax.untd.com> <10410162010.ZM4025@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20041023121631.01b19eb0@pop.starpower.net> At 03:10 PM 10/16/2004, you wrote: >On Oct 11 2004, 3:51, mehditk2@juno.com wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone have a KDF11-B3 boot rom or any other version which > > can boot RX33 or an MSCP device on my KDF11-BA. I will pay for > > that and I will be very thankful since I have not to buy a Eprom > > programmer to burn the immages. > >KDF11-B3 isn't one ROM, it's an upgrade kit consisting of two EPROMs >plus instructions. It's more usual to refer to the ROMs themselves by >the actual numbers or the processor suffix. The ROMs in the -B3 kit >are 23-183E4 and 23-184E4, as far as I remember; that's the -BF >version, but most versions of the KDF11 ROMs work with MSCP devices. > For example, people have used RD31 drives on an RQDX3 with -BE ROMs, >although it wasn't officially supported until -BG. The next version >was 23-380E4 and 23-381E4, which would make the processor a KDF11-BG. > >There's a list of ROMs at >http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ (see the file called >ROMlist). > >You can see which revisions officially support various MSCP devices in >Micronote 43, which you can find in various places including >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote43.txt > >BTW, the EPROMs for a KDF11-B are unusual 24-pin 8Kx8 devices; normal >2764-style 8Kx8 devices will not do because they're 28-pin. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I looked into this and found that the people who fool around with old arcade video games have the same problem with EPROMs, here is one fellows' solution to using a standard 2764 PROM in place of the rare Motorola 68764 (which I think is the one on the KDF11-B quad CPU board). Haven't tried it though. I could never find the pin out of the Motorola part.... BTW, my PROM programmer had no problem identifying and reading the 24 pin DEC Prom, I guess if I could find a blank one I could burn it. Doug Taylor You Build It: Hero Rom UpgradeYou build it: Hero Rom Upgrade OK so you downloaded the new ROM version, but you cant find a 68764 (8K Eprom in 24 pin package). Well here is a little conversion you can do to allow you to use a 2764 (8K Eprom in 28 pin package). 1 tie high (+5) 2 tie to socket #21 28 tie to socket #24 27 tie high (+5) 24 Pin 28 Pin Notes -------------------------- Vcc 24 26 N/C OK to pass through A8 23 25 A8 OK to pass through A9 22 24 A9 OK to pass through A12 21 23 A11 Socket to prom#2, pin to socket #18 E 20 22 OE OK to pass through A10 19 21 A10 OK to pass through A11 18 20 CE Socket to prom#23, pin to ground From lists at microvax.org Sat Oct 23 12:56:00 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (lists@microvax.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: KA640 TM Message-ID: <200410231756.i9NHu05q036195@huey.classiccmp.org> Hi - does anybody know of any copies of the KA640 Tech Manual online? I think i've got a blown DSSI picofuse* and i'd like to have a casual flip through the manual whilst i'm away from the system. I've searched Manx and poked Google, both turned up nothing. Cheers guys alex/melt * Terminator not lighting up, first disk in chain never coming online, CPU "Normal Operation Not Possible" errors From gslick at gte.net Sun Oct 24 03:33:03 2004 From: gslick at gte.net (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Anyone want an HP 7980A tape drive [Seattle area]? Message-ID: <000b01c4b9a4$14402620$6601a8c0@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> While we're on the topic of 1/2" tape drives, anyone want an HP 7980A (HPIB interface, not SCSI) that can either pick it up in the Seattle area or want it enough to pay shipping? From JMeyer101 at aol.com Sun Oct 24 19:23:32 2004 From: JMeyer101 at aol.com (JMeyer101@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: CDP 1861 Video Processor Message-ID: <1e0.2d543354.2eada184@aol.com> I am trying to get a RCA Cosmac VIP up and running, but I have two problems. I'm not familiar with the connector that this computer uses for the display and don't know how to connect it to a monitor (or whatever type of display it uses). The second problem is I need to find the 1861 chip. Does anyone know of a source where I can get one of these chips? My last issue/question is verifying what type of computer I really have. The box the computer came in is for a 18S711, but then there is a hand written note saying it's actually a 18S022. How can I verify that it is indeed a 18S022? Thanks, Jeff From nbreeden2 at comcast.net Sun Oct 24 20:11:02 2004 From: nbreeden2 at comcast.net (Neil Breeden II) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: ORION Unilab II Message-ID: <200410250130.i9P1Uq5q045975@huey.classiccmp.org> Guys, I came across an old post of your on cctalk concerning the ORION Unilab II - I picked one of these up today at a swap meet for $1, it has the 8088/8086 POD, what I believe is a Z80 POD and several cables with pin connectors on the ends. I'm looking for doc's and software for the unit and was hoping one of you could help. -Neil JD Gouws cctech@classiccmp.org Sun Oct 13 19:09:25 2002 * Previous message: decnet * Next message: New acquisition, and question * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ FYI: I have a lot of docs on Z-80 and some of the related hardware like the real-time-clock-thingy. I haven't searched the net to see if these are already readily availible or not. If they aren't availible on the 'net or incomplete I will gladly scan mine in if someone is interested. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] Sent: 10 October 2002 04:41 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Software for Orion Unilab II?? Hello all, As part of a recent eBay win, I acquired an Orion Instruments Unilab II. I have cables/software for the Rockwell 65/11EAB, and am looking for cables/software for any other processor, especially the 1802, Z-80, 8080, 8088. If anyone has software available, and cabling diagrams, please let me know! I have complete docs available, as well as the software for the 65/11EAB... I'd also be willing to write out a cable diagram for the 65/11EAB. Thanks! Rich B. From gslick at gte.net Sun Oct 24 21:27:17 2004 From: gslick at gte.net (Glen Slick) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: curious about unknown hp board Message-ID: <001e01c4ba3a$25f5c5f0$6601a8c0@ntdev.corp.microsoft.com> The part number give it away: 02640-60158. It's a backplane for a 264x terminal. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Oct 24 23:55:44 2004 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp@gjcp.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: OT-ish: Blue LEDs In-Reply-To: <200410250034.i9P0YMnC030584@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:44:22 -0000."<1098614662.5125.20.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410250034.i9P0YMnC030584@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1460.192.168.1.12.1098680144.squirrel@192.168.1.2> > I tried to put them into a system around 1989-90 and found they were > *very* expensive. The person in charge of purchasing came back with > something like hundreds of dollers per led... > > -brad > I remember seeing them in a catalogue (Cricklewood Electronics, possibly) when I was still at school. I must have been in 4th or 5th year of high school (Americans - the UK school system is very different from the US system, and I have no idea how this relates to your high schools) so I was probably 15 or 16. So, 1989-1990 seems about right. I do remember the line in the catalogue: BLUE LEDS ....................... ?40 (yes, forty pounds) We were amazed at the time (Ooooh, blue LEDs, oooh $expletive, how much?!) Gordon. From FrankF at solderx.com Mon Oct 25 14:25:56 2004 From: FrankF at solderx.com (Frank Frattolillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: disk drive Message-ID: <6DDBE6717CB492429737E8E9C832EA58027C10@solderx.adastra.ca> Hi there I have the same problem... Looking for the Sony MP-F52W-00D floppy drive. Would like to know if you can give me the phone number to the Sony Company you called. Would much appreciate it. You can contact me at www.fabio_padula@hotmail.com From daniel at cavs.msstate.edu Mon Oct 25 15:04:53 2004 From: daniel at cavs.msstate.edu (Daniel Hamilton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Digital Research Concurrent DOS/386 2.0 .... Message-ID: <417D5C65.9060000@cavs.msstate.edu> Hello, I saw a newsgroup posting where you mentioned having the binary images of this version of Concurrent DOS. I'm an antique OS collector, and I was wondering if you still have this files, and if so would you be willing to share them? If you are, could you kindly upload them to the following server: ftp://ps2supersite.homedns.org/incoming I have many old OSes that I would be will to share with you as well, so ask and I'll see if I have it! Thank you, Daniel Hamilton From z.dimic at t-online.de Mon Oct 25 16:03:28 2004 From: z.dimic at t-online.de (dimic) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Manual HP 1727a Message-ID: <000801c4bad6$17498b80$6402a8c0@Dimic> I am looking for a HP 1727a- manual. Please send me a message if available. Best Regards Z. Dimic Broicher Str. 139a 41179 Moenchengladbach Germany email: z.dimic@t-online.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 17:43:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 26, 4 02:02:19 pm Message-ID: > If we are going to re-adjust the number of years to include/exclude, > then let's just scrap the entire concept of a fixed number of years, > and declare that classic computers ran until August 10, 1981 (the > day before the IBM PC announcement). And thus exclude some true classics, like the HP Integral and PERQ 2T4 Much as I hate to exclude a particalar type of machine, maybe we should just say that a machine is not classic if a substantially similar machine is still mainstream, and thus has support available elsewhere. That would, I think, cut out most Pentium-based machines (but would arguably still include PC/XTs, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 17:47:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 26, 4 05:47:08 pm Message-ID: > What is wrong with talking about esoteric OS and hardware for x86 systems > other then windows like XENIX, other old and forgotten Unix, Desqview/X etc? > Most people just don't want this list to turn into a "help me fix this > common problem in Windows" resource. Althought I am not really a 'PC person', I would agree with this. There's nothing wrong with talking about IBM-PC related stuff that's no longer mainstream, it's as interesting as most other micros. But like you, I don't want to see this list degnerate into a Windows/Pentium support list (there are plenty of other, better, places to talk about such machines). Of course, If you want to try to write a pentium-compatible microcode for a PERQ, then this list may well be a good place to talk about it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 17:37:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 26, 4 12:55:29 pm Message-ID: \begin{pedant} > Yes, but a mixture of NaCl and CaCl will happily suck up water ^^^^^ CaCl_2 , surely. \end{pedant} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 17:39:46 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026155143.10058848@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 26, 4 03:57:50 pm Message-ID: > I was frustrated by other failed efforts: I'd saved a pile of > known-working 5 1/4s, but failed to remember to inventory whether > the PCs I'd saved (of various generations) had the right connector: > edge or not, and I had no idea where I'd stored the adapters, > so more frustration. Just grab the right connector from your junk box and crimp it onto the cable alongside the 'wrong' one... What, you don't have a junk box? -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 26 18:24:07 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: Silica gel was Re: Excercising vintage items In-Reply-To: <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1098369251.921.33.camel@weka.localdomain> <200410211550.IAA13668@floodgap.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026110255.00957ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <16766.34182.853319.272617@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026125207.0607e8e8@pc> <10410262326.ZM15126@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200410262327.TAA12370@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you don't mind a liquid, concentrated sulphuric acid is a more > active dessicant than either silca gel or calcium chloride ;-) A rather caustic liquid, though. (Anhydrous acetic acid is similar in both regards: highly caustic and extremely water-hungry.) Any good chemistry lab can tell you what they use as a dessicant for storing things that must be kept dry; they use - or used back when I was hanging out in chem lab - dessicants that just need a few hours in an oven to reactivate them, and don't give off vapours that corrode stuff (in contrast to concentrated acids). It's been too long, though; I forget the name of the chemical. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Oct 25 15:33:09 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: NEC PC-8201A Message-ID: <417D6305.9040702@theriver.com> Digging through what I thought was just another giant box 0' cables from the UA auction, I got to the bottom and there were 2 NEC PC-8201A and 2 NEC PC-8300 all in working order. sometimes ya just gotta keep diggin' Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 26 18:44:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER Message-ID: <200410262344.QAA15678@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> If we are going to re-adjust the number of years to include/exclude, >> then let's just scrap the entire concept of a fixed number of years, >> and declare that classic computers ran until August 10, 1981 (the >> day before the IBM PC announcement). > >And thus exclude some true classics, like the HP Integral and PERQ 2T4 > >Much as I hate to exclude a particalar type of machine, maybe we should >just say that a machine is not classic if a substantially similar machine >is still mainstream, and thus has support available elsewhere. That >would, I think, cut out most Pentium-based machines (but would arguably >still include PC/XTs, etc). > >-tony > Hi Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right mind might actually use that machine for day to day business, it should be excluded. Of course this might very from person to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old Altair for day to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. Simple. Dwight From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 26 19:05:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410262344.QAA15678@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >>> Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right >>> mind might actually use that machine for day to day >>> business, it should be excluded. Of course this might very >>> from person to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old >>> Altair for day to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. >>> Simple. Then if the inverse would also be true. If a person does NOT consider a Machine to be suitable for day-to-day work, it WOULD be eligible. Many on this list [but not me] consider current WinTel machines to suitable for anything. This would then make that machine valid for posting questions on the list. Not likely to happen since the person whould be be "authorized" to post on said machine is unlikely to even own one. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 26 19:03:20 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410262344.QAA15678@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old Altair for day > to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. > Simple. > Dwight ...and that crazy person might be the most qualified to _answer_ Altair questions. Quit being so doom and gloom fer chrissakes. I've been on this list for many years and I've YET to see a flurry of windows questions. We scare the crap out of the average windows user -- they're not going to descend on the list asking for help any time soon. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Oct 26 18:59:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER Message-ID: <200410262359.QAA15685@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" > >>>> Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right >>>> mind might actually use that machine for day to day >>>> business, it should be excluded. Of course this might very >>>> from person to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old >>>> Altair for day to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. >>>> Simple. > >Then if the inverse would also be true. If a person does NOT consider a >Machine to be suitable for day-to-day work, it WOULD be eligible. Many on >this list [but not me] consider current WinTel machines to suitable for >anything. This would then make that machine valid for posting questions on >the list. Not likely to happen since the person whould be be "authorized" to >post on said machine is unlikely to even own one. > Hi David Yes, I think the risk is low. Even if they had such a machine, they would, most likely, be embarrassed to state that to the group, anyway. Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 19:00:03 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: I recently acquired an exciting new (old) machine, an Intel MDS 800, known as the 'Blue Box.' It's the 1975-era 8080 based box that kicked off CP/M. My particular machine was intended as an 8051 ICE box, it has the 8051 emulator pod and external PROM programmer. The system came complete with a big box of what appears to be complete docs and a lot of software on 8" disks. There are four or more different versions of IRIS, a disk labeled 'CPM' which I hope is a boot disk, and multiple versions of other Intel tools, including the targeted 8051 development tools. I paid a fair amount for this system, and am going to go slowly at bringing it up. It's been stored a long time and there's a troubling amount of surface rust on some of the screw heads and exposed hardware. I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. The circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of the chips. What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series (some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the 'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with others with significantly different date codes? This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display so I might be forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) video monitor troubleshooting. The machine has a built-in 8" floppy, which I assume is the low-density original, and an expansion case (third party) with two newer and higher density drives. Is there a source for new or NOS 8" floppies out there? One thing for certain that I'll be doing early after getting this machine up and running is a backup of all the media that came with it (a fair amount, probably 30-50 disks, many of which are Intel branded originals). Lots more questions and comments likely to come on this project. Scott From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 19:13:15 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026200703.033a62c0@mail.earthlink.net> Hi Scott, you must be the one that bought the "MDS800" from eBay recently. I tried to tell the guy that it was a MDS2XX series which was the second generation development system from Intel. It is not a MDS800... I used these systems back in the 70s and 80s as others here have done. In bringing up the system verify power supply operation before powering anything on. A system that I recently acquired has so far only yielded a good internal disk drive and all the cards are non-operational. The internal drive could be either SD or DD. If there is a 50 pin ribbon connecting the drive to the back board in the system, then you have an internal single density drive. If there is a cable running from one of the front cards to the drive, then it has been hooked up as double density. I don't have any comments on keeping its credentials. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 08:00 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote: >I recently acquired an exciting new (old) machine, an Intel MDS 800, >known as the 'Blue Box.' It's the 1975-era 8080 based box that kicked >off CP/M. > >My particular machine was intended as an 8051 ICE box, it has the 8051 >emulator pod and external PROM programmer. > >The system came complete with a big box of what appears to be complete >docs and a lot of software on 8" disks. There are four or more >different versions of IRIS, a disk labeled 'CPM' which I hope is a >boot disk, and multiple versions of other Intel tools, including the >targeted 8051 development tools. > >I paid a fair amount for this system, and am going to go slowly at >bringing it up. It's been stored a long time and there's a troubling >amount of surface rust on some of the screw heads and exposed >hardware. > >I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on >the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have >restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion >on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. The >circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of >the chips. > >What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in >question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series >(some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the >'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with >others with significantly different date codes? > >This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want >to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display so I might be >forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) >video monitor troubleshooting. > >The machine has a built-in 8" floppy, which I assume is the >low-density original, and an expansion case (third party) with two >newer and higher density drives. > >Is there a source for new or NOS 8" floppies out there? One thing for >certain that I'll be doing early after getting this machine up and >running is a backup of all the media that came with it (a fair amount, >probably 30-50 disks, many of which are Intel branded originals). > >Lots more questions and comments likely to come on this project. > >Scott From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 11:22:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041026212950.55639.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > I certainly didn't intend to sound like a complainer... just meant to > observe that something's askew with our 10-year concept if we're talking > about the web and 3.5-inch disks as "vintage". Here's the rule to keep in mind for now and forever, directed at you and anyone else who would dare beat this dead horse at any point in the future: we'll tell you when it's off-topic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 19:21:36 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041027002136.86946.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> LOL, I'll remember that the next time you go off on something political. --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter wrote: > > > I certainly didn't intend to sound like a complainer... just meant to > > observe that something's askew with our 10-year concept if we're talking > > about the web and 3.5-inch disks as "vintage". > > Here's the rule to keep in mind for now and forever, directed at you and > anyone else who would dare beat this dead horse at any point in the > future: we'll tell you when it's off-topic. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers > ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org > ] > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 585 readers and counting! From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 26 19:24:01 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410262344.QAA15678@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041026201530.039d2790@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dwight K. Elvey may have mentioned these words: >Hi > Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right >mind might actually use that machine for day to day business, >it should be excluded. Of course this might very from person >to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old Altair for day >to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. Oy, now I'm vying for grumpy ol' Fred's title of king curmudgeon. Not to sound like a complete jerk, but that's one of the more foolish ideas I've heard yet! If that's the case, I'd have to go; and I've been here longer than most... I suppose my 21-year-old Tandy Model 100 isn't actually capable of real work according to your metric? [[ not to mention that there's new hardware being designed for it to upgrade it to onboard 2M RAM and 2M Flash ROM... Or the TPDD emulator now available for PalmOS serial devices for more portable storage for the Model 'T's... ]] Go check out Bitchin100 sometime: http://www.bitchin100.com/ Or Club100 (still going strong after 21 years:) http://www.club100.org/ =-=-=-=-= BTW, I would say the opposite: If people can still do what's considered "useful work" nowadays with an Altair, he should be voted "king of the list" -- or would that be Tony already? ;-) IMHO, YMMV, IANAL, JWTFDYTTRM, and all that jazz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 19:24:55 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:47:26 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >> What is wrong with talking about esoteric OS and hardware for x86 systems >> other then windows like XENIX, other old and forgotten Unix, Desqview/X etc? >> Most people just don't want this list to turn into a "help me fix this >> common problem in Windows" resource. > >Althought I am not really a 'PC person', I would agree with this. There's >nothing wrong with talking about IBM-PC related stuff that's no longer >mainstream, it's as interesting as most other micros. But like you, I >don't want to see this list degnerate into a Windows/Pentium support list >(there are plenty of other, better, places to talk about such machines). >Of course, If you want to try to write a pentium-compatible microcode for >a PERQ, then this list may well be a good place to talk about it... > >-tony There's even a fair amount of interesting esoteria about the first IBM PCs that should be on-topic. I.e.: The very first boxes from IBM had painted black power supplies, painted black card-edge plates, and sported one row of 16Kx1 RAM chips soldered in place, and up to three more in sockets, if you ordered more than 16K of memory with your system. Also included was the audio-cassette cable, since the first PCs (I think up to the 256K motherboards) could be purchased with no floppy drives and boot into 'cassette BASIC' in ROM and store and recall programs from audio cassette, like many other machines of the era. I doubt if there will be many people posting support questions about the dipswitch settings (confusing as hell, they were) for that generation of hardware to tell the motherboard how much memory was installed, and where (motherboard versus on the I/O channel). I have a Kaypro 8088 portable box, and while it's a 'PC Clone' with ISA slots, and can run dreary software like MS-DOS, it currently runs CP/M-86, which I hope people would welcome discussion of if it were brought up. I also have an all-original IBM-AT box (6 MHz), with IBM's EGA card in it, and all IBM hardware throughout. I personally consider it criminal to swap in a third-party VGA card, and since I don't have an EGA monitor, I've never turned it on (yet). One would think that by observing such an attitude even a '286 box would be considered a worthy topic once in awhile. My PC Convertable laptop (with all 640K, extremely rare) should also qualify even with the most ardent IBM-PC hater, since it's function in computing history was to make a mockery of IBM's feeble offerings of the time in DOS computing. Anyhow, sorry for rambling. From dmabry at mich.com Tue Oct 26 19:24:41 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> Welcome, Scott, to the Intel MDS Fraternity. Joe R., Jay West (your list owner), and I are members that I know of. Joe will likely have lots to say about your endeavour. I've been intending on (and slowly performing) a backup of my MDS software, probably to some form of optical storage for archive. Probably CD-R's. What you are describing is what is called an Intel MDS Series II. The MDS 800 didn't have an integral diskette drive or an internal crt monitor. Yours is like mine, the "second generation" or Series II. The internal diskette drive can be single density or double density depending on whether it has the optional double density controller board set or was controlled by the internal "I/O Controller" or IOC board. If you have an external drive system, you likely have the double density board-set for them. It can (but not necessarily) also control the internal drive making it double density. In any case, all your drives will be single SIDED. Intel's OS was called ISIS-II, as you know. CP/M was also available for it. I wrote a custom BIOS for CP/M so that you could access both double- and single-density drives in one system. ISIS-II could do that "out of the box" from Intel. There is much more, but I'm tired now. I've been on the phone with Dick Hof in Denmark working on his Intel iPDS project. But that's another story. Enjoy your restoration! Let the brothers know of your progress!!! Dave Scott Stevens wrote: > I recently acquired an exciting new (old) machine, an Intel MDS 800, > known as the 'Blue Box.' It's the 1975-era 8080 based box that kicked > off CP/M. > > My particular machine was intended as an 8051 ICE box, it has the 8051 > emulator pod and external PROM programmer. > > The system came complete with a big box of what appears to be complete > docs and a lot of software on 8" disks. There are four or more > different versions of IRIS, a disk labeled 'CPM' which I hope is a > boot disk, and multiple versions of other Intel tools, including the > targeted 8051 development tools. > > I paid a fair amount for this system, and am going to go slowly at > bringing it up. It's been stored a long time and there's a troubling > amount of surface rust on some of the screw heads and exposed > hardware. > > I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on > the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have > restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion > on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. The > circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of > the chips. > > What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in > question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series > (some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the > 'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with > others with significantly different date codes? > > This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want > to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display so I might be > forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) > video monitor troubleshooting. > > The machine has a built-in 8" floppy, which I assume is the > low-density original, and an expansion case (third party) with two > newer and higher density drives. > > Is there a source for new or NOS 8" floppies out there? One thing for > certain that I'll be doing early after getting this machine up and > running is a backup of all the media that came with it (a fair amount, > probably 30-50 disks, many of which are Intel branded originals). > > Lots more questions and comments likely to come on this project. > > Scott > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 11:38:04 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041027002136.86946.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, evan wrote: > LOL, I'll remember that the next time you go off on something political. Remember, this is CCTALK, so it's allowed :) But my public displays of politics are probably over. I've come to the depressing realization that everyone is stupid and no matter what I say the idiots will always be in power, corruption will prevail, and injustice will be the rule. I'm prepping to leave the country anyway, and I doubt I'll be the only one depending on the outcome of the forthcoming election. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 11:40:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > Welcome, Scott, to the Intel MDS Fraternity. Joe R., Jay West (your > list owner), and I are members that I know of. Joe will likely have I've got one but it's in need of some serious restoration. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 19:36:03 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: <003c01c4bba5$57acb1f0$0200fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026193004.05a81de8@pc> I think the reason this list will never become a Windows support list is indeed because there are so many other much better resources for questions like that. On the other hand, I sense a relative dearth of info online regarding ordinary PCs that preceeded the rise of the Web. There was gobs of info on Compuserve, for example, in the BBS dial-up days, that was not preserved. I've always wondered if Compuserve kept archive backup tapes of all the message forum postings. I tend to think they didn't. What a shame. Years of computer history, down the tubes. Mind you, I'm a digital packrat and back in Compuserve days even I had to resort to judicious editing of my online transcripts to minimize file sizes. So although I have years of daily captures, they were edited as per my mindset of the moment, deciding what was important and what wasn't. I shudder to think how long it might take me to resurrect some old EISA or VLB gizmo with the proper drivers and CONFIG / AUTOEXEC / Win.ini settings. - John From news at computercollector.com Tue Oct 26 19:43:36 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026193004.05a81de8@pc> Message-ID: <20041027004336.95227.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Actually, the CompuServe info is available -- I think. Check out Jason Scott's page: http://www.textfiles.com --- John Foust wrote: > > I think the reason this list will never become a Windows > support list is indeed because there are so many other > much better resources for questions like that. > > On the other hand, I sense a relative dearth of info online > regarding ordinary PCs that preceeded the rise of the Web. > > There was gobs of info on Compuserve, for example, in the > BBS dial-up days, that was not preserved. I've always > wondered if Compuserve kept archive backup tapes of all > the message forum postings. I tend to think they didn't. > What a shame. Years of computer history, down the tubes. > > Mind you, I'm a digital packrat and back in Compuserve days > even I had to resort to judicious editing of my online > transcripts to minimize file sizes. So although I have > years of daily captures, they were edited as per my mindset > of the moment, deciding what was important and what wasn't. > > I shudder to think how long it might take me to > resurrect some old EISA or VLB gizmo with the proper drivers > and CONFIG / AUTOEXEC / Win.ini settings. > > - John > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 585 readers and counting! From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 19:46:05 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026200703.033a62c0@mail.earthlink.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026200703.033a62c0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:13:15 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Scott, you must be the one that bought the "MDS800" from eBay recently. >I tried to tell the guy that it was a MDS2XX series which was the second >generation development system from Intel. >It is not a MDS800... Sorry to hear that, in terms of 'collectors value and esteem' stuff. I did suspect something was 'up' when the datecode on the ID sticker on back was 1978. > >I used these systems back in the 70s and 80s as others here have done. Mine seems to be a full 8051 ICE with all the trimmings, so I may even attempt some embedded programming with it- the system came with a box with four or five 'spare' 8051 'bond-out' processor chips in it, so it is probably servicible even if the 'pod' is blown. (there's probably been even at least one person, somewhere in the world, who would have been willing to pay the price of a good used sports-car for one of the spares, within the last decade) I have at least a few tubes full of 8031s, and even a couple NOS tubes of the elusive (RARE now) 8243 chip, so I can roll out a psuedo-single-chip 8051 project or two if I want, even without an 8751 programmer. >In >bringing up the system verify power supply operation before powering >anything on. A system that I recently acquired has so far only yielded a >good internal disk drive and all the cards are non-operational. Unless an EPROM is dead, everything else seems like standard replacable parts. (rationalisation and hopeful thinking) > >The internal drive could be either SD or DD. If there is a 50 pin ribbon >connecting the drive to the back board in the system, then you have an >internal single density drive. If there is a cable running from one of the >front cards to the drive, then it has been hooked up as double density. > Actually, there's an added-in non-Intel jack on the back (I think 37 pin 'D' shaped but as everybody knows, probably not a 'Dsub' due to size) that the external dual-8" floppy enclosure plugs into. I suspect the system may have had something third-party added to support the two external drives, and some of the disks are labeled to indicate they are 'higher' density than the internal drive will support. This system has EVERYTHING, (including a plastic sleeve full of sales receipts, etc.) and I'm hoping full docs for all the stuff that was upgraded on it. There's a lot for me to go through yet. No matter what, it does feel good to finally have a piece of hardware with both Paper-tape in and and out jacks on the back. >I don't have any comments on keeping its credentials. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 26 20:02:57 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041027004336.95227.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026193004.05a81de8@pc> <20041027004336.95227.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026195802.05d7c1e8@pc> At 07:43 PM 10/26/2004, you wrote: >Actually, the CompuServe info is available -- I think. Check out Jason Scott's >page: http://www.textfiles.com No, Grasshopper, that's not what I'm talking about. :-) In its best days, Compuserve had hundreds of threaded, topic'd forums within forums, moderated and each with their own file library. Forum message turnover was measured in days. I'd be shocked and surprised to hear that they ever archived it. It would be buildings full of 9-tracks. On the other hand, they were quite proprietary (rightfully so) about their ownership of the collection copyright to the messages and files. There were a half-dozen other comparable national networks, too - Delphi, the Source, the Well, the various projects of Quantum (the fledging AOL), etc. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:04:29 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER References: Message-ID: <006a01c4bbc0$e95eb6f0$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 12:38 PM Subject: Re: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, evan wrote: > > > LOL, I'll remember that the next time you go off on something political. > > Remember, this is CCTALK, so it's allowed :) > > But my public displays of politics are probably over. I've come to the > depressing realization that everyone is stupid and no matter what I say > the idiots will always be in power, corruption will prevail, and injustice > will be the rule. > > I'm prepping to leave the country anyway, and I doubt I'll be the only > one depending on the outcome of the forthcoming election. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > Politics and religion are based more on faith then facts, you cannot change peoples faith with facts. Stick to computers Sellam. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Oct 26 20:32:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> >>> I'm prepping to leave the country anyway, and I doubt I'll >>> be the only one depending on the outcome of the forthcoming >>> election. >>> >>> -- Wondering if there will be a really big "yard sale"???? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:15:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: ORION Unilab II In-Reply-To: <200410250130.i9P1Uq5q045975@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026211553.00950800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:11 PM 10/24/04 -0700, you wrote: >Guys, > > > > I came across an old post of your on cctalk concerning the ORION Unilab >II - I picked one of these up today at a swap meet for $1, it has the >8088/8086 POD, what I believe is a Z80 POD and several cables with pin >connectors on the ends. I'm looking for doc's and software for the unit I think we're all looking for that! Joe and >was hoping one of you could help. > > > >-Neil > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:21:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: CDP 1861 Video Processor In-Reply-To: <1e0.2d543354.2eada184@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026212155.00955210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:23 PM 10/24/04 -0400, you wrote: >I am trying to get a RCA Cosmac VIP up and running, but I have two problems. > I'm not familiar with the connector that this computer uses for the display >and don't know how to connect it to a monitor (or whatever type of display >it uses). The second problem is I need to find the 1861 chip. Does anyone >know of a source where I can get one of these chips? > >My last issue/question is verifying what type of computer I really have. >The box the computer came in is for a 18S711, but then there is a hand written >note saying it's actually a 18S022. How can I verify that it is indeed a >18S022? I checked my RCA CMOS Databook but I can't find either of those numbers listed. You should check with Mike Haas . He's the expert on these things. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:13:17 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026211317.0095dd00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Scott, Congradulations on buying a "real" computer instead of a toy like the SB-180 :-) I'm REAL familar with the MDS-800 , , . Can you make a list of the docs that you got. Here's a list of the ones that I have; . I have more but haven't had time to update the list. At 07:00 PM 10/26/04 -0500, you wrote: >I recently acquired an exciting new (old) machine, an Intel MDS 800, >known as the 'Blue Box.' It's the 1975-era 8080 based box that kicked >off CP/M. > >My particular machine was intended as an 8051 ICE box, it has the 8051 >emulator pod and external PROM programmer. > >The system came complete with a big box of what appears to be complete >docs and a lot of software on 8" disks. There are four or more >different versions of IRIS, That should be ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) not IRIS. The ISIS disks should also be bootable. a disk labeled 'CPM' which I hope is a >boot disk, and multiple versions of other Intel tools, including the >targeted 8051 development tools. > >I paid a fair amount for this system, and am going to go slowly at >bringing it up. It's been stored a long time and there's a troubling >amount of surface rust on some of the screw heads and exposed >hardware. Take it apart and clean it. I use Lime-Away on steel screws. It contains phosphoric acid and is similar to Naval Jelly. >>>>Make careful notes about what cables go where and what cards go in what slots. They're not entirely interchangeable. Many of the cards come in sets of two or three and one particular card of the set has to go into an odd numbered slot and the companion card has to go into the next higher numbered slot. This is because Interrrupt signal is wired to different pin numbers in the odd and even slots. ALSO the Front panel controller MUST go into slot one and the CPU card MUST go into the second slot. I BELEIVE the RAM cards and Monitor card can go into any slot. > >I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on >the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have >restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion >on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. I believe I'd leave them alone until I had the machine working. Then, perhaps, I'd clean them one board at a time. That way I'd know what board the problem was in if something screws up. The >circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of >the chips. > >What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in >question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series >(some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the >'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with >others with significantly different date codes? > >This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want >to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display ???????????????? What! The MDS-800 doesn't have a display. It uses a terminal. Oh wait. I'll bet you bought that mislabeled one off of E-bay. Let's see, here it is . If this is what you bought then it's NOT an MDS-800. Look at the pictures of a couple of my 800s at the links at the top of the message. This is a LATER MDS-220. Here's a page that describes the differences between the various 2xx models; . The 2xx are similar to the 800s but have a built in CRT and a detachable keyboard. They also have a space for a single disk drive but not every model includes the drive. The drawback to the 2xx (IMHO) is the lack of slots. They only have five slots where the 800 has 18. You'd think 5 slots whould be enough but all the ICE units use two cards (some of them use three!) A Double Density disk controller uses two cards. Most RAM cards are only 16k so you need at least one slot for that or as many as four. Then if want to use an 8086 CPU you need a slot for that card (in addition to one for the regular CPU (8080 or 8085) card. That's probably why most 2xx machines come with the optional expansion chassis. BTW there is a built in disk drive controller. The internal drive is USUALLY hooked to it BUT if you install the optional Double Density Disk drive controller you can hook the internal drive to it. I'm curious about your aftermarket drives. Are you SURE that they work with the MDS? Intel monkeys with two of the signals inside of their drive box (the box, not the drives themselves). IIRC one of the signals is the READY signal from the drive and the other is the head load or spin signal from the CPU to the drives. so I might be >forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) >video monitor troubleshooting. Maybe I've been lucky but on my three 2xxs the monitor all started working after I moved a couple of pot controls. It seemed like they had built up a spot of corrision where the wiper was sitting but it cleaned up after I moved the wiper a couple of times. BTW were you aware that that EPROM programmer uses a 4040 CPU? I hate to think of all of them that I passed up before I learned that. > >The machine has a built-in 8" floppy, which I assume is the >low-density original, and an expansion case (third party) with two >newer and higher density drives. The density is a function of the controller, not the drives. > >Is there a source for new or NOS 8" floppies out there? Yeah. I found a sealed box of DS DD ones just last week. BTW all the drives for the MDSs (both 800s and 2xxs) are single sided. The low density ones use the "standard" CPM format but the DD one have a format that's not compatible with any other machine that I know of. One thing for >certain that I'll be doing early after getting this machine up and >running is a backup of all the media that came with it (a fair amount, >probably 30-50 disks, many of which are Intel branded originals). > >Lots more questions and comments likely to come on this project. Ask away! The MDSs are one of my favorite machines. Joe > >Scott > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:24:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: NEC PC-8201A In-Reply-To: <417D6305.9040702@theriver.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026212434.00950940@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Nice Find! I always make it a point to dig through boxs of cables. Joe At 01:33 PM 10/25/04 -0700, you wrote: >Digging through what I thought was just another giant box 0' cables from the >UA auction, I got to the bottom and there were 2 NEC PC-8201A and 2 NEC >PC-8300 all in working order. > >sometimes ya just gotta keep diggin' > > >Cheers > >Tom >-- >--- >Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to >the beginning. > From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Oct 26 20:23:16 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) In-Reply-To: References: <20041026203116.97215.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> <20041026134911.G97268@shell.lmi.net> <417EC043.3090200@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >If it could have been purchased in a retail store, new, I'm >not interested in it. How's that for snotty!! > >(It's not actually a joke; I don't really care much for >non-industrial/non-scientific stuff.) I have a set of the 'IBM Industrial Computer' technical reference manuals here somewhere. The reference pages, and actually the schematics, are identical to those in the IBM PC/XT Technical Reference Manual. They stuck the parts in a more industrial case. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:32:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041026213237.0095c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:40 AM 10/26/04 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > >> Welcome, Scott, to the Intel MDS Fraternity. Joe R., Jay West (your >> list owner), and I are members that I know of. Joe will likely have > >I've got one but it's in need of some serious restoration. Speaking of that. If anyone needs any mechanical parts let me know. I have a bunch of incomplete Series II (aka MDS-2xx) machines that I bought just for the cases and such. No, there are no extra keyboards but there are power supplies, CRTs with associated electronics and (I think) IOC cards (the big card mounted vertically in the back of the machine) along with the cases. Joe From lists at microvax.org Tue Oct 26 20:35:23 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: wirewrap tool Message-ID: <417EFB5B.5080004@microvax.org> Does anyone in the UK know of somewhere that rents out wirewrap tools... or has one I could borrow for a week or so? cheers guys alex/melt From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 26 20:31:41 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER References: Message-ID: <00a101c4bbc4$b66edf00$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: RE: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER > >>> Sellam Ismail wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm prepping to leave the country anyway, and I doubt I'll > >>> be the only one depending on the outcome of the forthcoming > >>> election. > >>> > >>> -- > > Wondering if there will be a really big "yard sale"???? More like an auction to cover his last 2 months rent he ducked out on. I wonder how many people have said they are leaving the country if Bush wins and realy mean it. From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 20:57:50 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: TRS-80 model II keyboard(s) Message-ID: <20041027015750.52900.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I have a couple TRS-80 model II keyboards, as seen at http://oldcomputers.net/trs80ii.html They work, but are not in new condition (they have wear marks and dirt). Does anyone have a use for one? They are not for re-sale! Steve. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Oct 26 13:11:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <00a101c4bbc4$b66edf00$0200fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > More like an auction to cover his last 2 months rent he ducked out on. I > wonder how many people have said they are leaving the country if Bush wins > and realy mean it. A lot. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 26 21:10:15 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:16 2005 Subject: TRS-80 model II keyboard(s) Message-ID: <20041027021013.OKM11272.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 18:57 26/10/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, > >I have a couple TRS-80 model II keyboards, as seen at >http://oldcomputers.net/trs80ii.html > >They work, but are not in new condition (they have >wear marks and dirt). > >Does anyone have a use for one? They are not for >re-sale! > >Steve. Hi Steve, I know another local collector here in Ottawa canada that has a TRS-80 model II and does not have a keyboard - obviously a keyboard in any condition would be highly desirable. What are your terms for obtaining one? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Oct 26 21:16:08 2004 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: rack-mount Norsk Data ND100 available In-Reply-To: <200410262315.i9QNDcsi006589@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200410262315.i9QNDcsi006589@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1098843368.17644.7.camel@fortran> Don't throw it away! :) Don't let that thing hit the dumpster! :) The ND-100 was a brilliant machine, and had an OS far from its time. I'm actually going to see one *today* and I'll get to bring some docs home, and I'll probably get a site up that will fix the scarcity of info on this machine. It has coolness, blinkenlights, and all the bells and whistles. Please, don't let that thing die! :\ Someone pick it up, I'll probably bring software to the table soon. -- Tore S Bekkedal From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Oct 26 21:35:29 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: CDP 1861 Video Processor In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041026212155.00955210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041026212155.00955210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <417F0971.3020302@jcwren.com> You should also check out the cosmacelf user group on yahoo.com. There have been 1861's for sale (in fact, I had a few, but they are long gone) in the past. --jc Joe R. wrote: >At 08:23 PM 10/24/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >>I am trying to get a RCA Cosmac VIP up and running, but I have two >> >> >problems. > > >>I'm not familiar with the connector that this computer uses for the >> >> >display > > >>and don't know how to connect it to a monitor (or whatever type of display >>it uses). The second problem is I need to find the 1861 chip. Does anyone >>know of a source where I can get one of these chips? >> >>My last issue/question is verifying what type of computer I really have. >>The box the computer came in is for a 18S711, but then there is a hand >> >> >written > > >>note saying it's actually a 18S022. How can I verify that it is indeed a >>18S022? >> >> > > > I checked my RCA CMOS Databook but I can't find either of those numbers >listed. You should check with Mike Haas . He's the >expert on these things. > > Joe > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 22:18:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041026201530.039d2790@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20041026201530.039d2790@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20041026201425.V10373@shell.lmi.net> > Oy, now I'm vying for grumpy ol' Fred's title of king curmudgeon. Actually, I was NOT serious about the August 10, 1981 suggestion. I like hearing about ANY interesting machine, even current ones (although most of the interesting ones were long ago). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 22:12:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 26, 4 07:00:03 pm Message-ID: > I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on > the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have > restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion > on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. The > circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of > the chips. > > What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in > question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series > (some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the > 'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with > others with significantly different date codes? Well, I don't go around replacing good chips :-). But I do feel that if at all possible my classics have to work, and that means replacing parts if necessary. My rule (of course) is to replaced the least amount possible -- that it to replace a chip rather than the entire board. And no, I don't care about date codes, or even families (in other words I might put a 74LS-series chip in place of a plain 74-series one if it would work). In fact I have an HP9810 calculator (1972 vintage) with the odd 74Fxxx chip in the processor for that reason. > This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want > to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display so I might be All I can say here is that it often takes me a couple of months before powering up a new toy. Better to be patient now than to have to track down irreplaceable parts... My MDS800 is the older one without the built-in terminal. I don't have the Intel terminal for mine, I just use a PC running a terminal emultor > forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) > video monitor troubleshooting. Ah :-). Monitors actually are not that bad to work on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 22:19:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: from "Scott Stevens" at Oct 26, 4 07:24:55 pm Message-ID: > There's even a fair amount of interesting esoteria about the first IBM > PCs that should be on-topic. I.e.: The very first boxes from IBM had > painted black power supplies, painted black card-edge plates, and Not to mention some of the more obscure IBM I/O cards (Profession Graphics Adapter, Lab I/O, networking, PC/370 processor, etc). > sported one row of 16Kx1 RAM chips soldered in place, and up to three > more in sockets, if you ordered more than 16K of memory with your > system. Also included was the audio-cassette cable, since the first Was it? I realise original IBM PCs (5150 machines) have the cassette port, but I thought you were expected to get the cable from RatShack. The 5 pin DIN socket has the same pinout as the TRS-80... > PCs (I think up to the 256K motherboards) could be purchased with no > floppy drives and boot into 'cassette BASIC' in ROM and store and > recall programs from audio cassette, like many other machines of the > era. ROM BASIC is present in the XT and AT too, but with no cassette interface. I have sometimes wondered about making an I/O card with a BIOS extension ROM that intercepts INT 15 (IIRC) and, say, uses a paper tape punch/reader as storage. I think that would work with the ROM BASIC in the latter machines. > I doubt if there will be many people posting support questions about > the dipswitch settings (confusing as hell, they were) for that > generation of hardware to tell the motherboard how much memory was > installed, and where (motherboard versus on the I/O channel). FWIW, I have the IBM TechRefs for the PC, PC/XT and PC/AT machines. > I also have an all-original IBM-AT box (6 MHz), with IBM's EGA card in > it, and all IBM hardware throughout. I personally consider it My AT is much modified, but it still has the IBM Motherboard (with a 486 kludgeboard in the CPU socket...) I did find a PC/XT system that was 100% IBM. Even has the expansion unit (containing 2 10Mbyte hard drives...) -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 26 23:16:24 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410262359.QAA15685@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410262359.QAA15685@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200410270419.AAA24106@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Many on this list [but not me] consider current WinTel machines to >> suitable for anything. Well, I wouldn't go that far. But I have two peecee machines. > Yes, I think the risk is low. Even if they had such a machine, they > would, most likely, be embarrassed to state that to the group, :-) I'm not embarrassed to say I have them. After all, one of them is the machine I've been trying to write a KA630 emulator on! (The other one exists principally to store my ripped-CD collection - as soon as I buy a CD I rip it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 26 23:20:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410270425.AAA24159@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I wonder how many people have said they are leaving the country if >> Bush wins and realy mean it. > A lot. I know someone, now living in San Diego (California), who was in the past saying things like "I'm coming back to Montreal before November, and if Bush wins I'm _not_ going back". Apparently that stance has now been backed down from, but it was plenty believable - there was already friction between her and her husband over his wanting them to move to California (from Montreal). If Bush wins, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they found themselves fleeing. Fortunately one of them is a Canadian citizen, so there would be no problem getting into Canada, but there will probably be a lot of people who would, to call a spade a spade, be political refugees. If anyone needs a contact on the ground in Montreal come November 3rd, let me know. (While I've never had to do it, I imagine that fleeing to another country is a lot less scary if you have a contact there.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 27 00:43:02 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER Message-ID: <0410270543.AA10997@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right > mind might actually use that machine for day to day business, > it should be excluded. Some people do use Classic computers for day to day business! I use my VAXen running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus for that. So I guess you would want to exclude me. Fine, feel free to ignore my posts. Fortunately there are others on this list I can ask if I have a technical question about some DEC or other quite on-topic stuff. > Of course this might very from person > to person. Anyone silly enough to use an old Altair for day > to day work shouldn't post questions to the list. OK, feel free to consider me too silly/stupid/crazy/whatever, you are entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately for you, you won't stop me from posting on-topic technical questions to the list from my very on-topic VAX hosts. MS From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 27 01:52:45 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <0410270543.AA10997@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Oct 27, 4 05:43:02 am" Message-ID: <200410270652.XAA12998@floodgap.com> > > Maybe it should be based of if a person in their right > > mind might actually use that machine for day to day business, > > it should be excluded. > > Some people do use Classic computers for day to day business! My Commodores somewhat, but I have a number of classic Macs that are on topic and are running as servers, 24/7. Every DNS query generated by my internal network goes through the IIci, and the Q605 proxies streaming media. The Commodores are doing various tasks at least a few times a week, and I even still log in from the 128. So, I think it's a very poor metric too. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I need to clean my toilet brush." -------- From ohh at drizzle.com Wed Oct 27 01:57:20 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So about the ten-year rule... if you're only nine years old, does it mean you can't post here? -O.- ...no, I'm 44, thank you very much. I only _act_ like I'm nine. :) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 27 02:44:48 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at "Oct 26, 4 11:57:20 pm" Message-ID: <200410270744.AAA15110@floodgap.com> > So about the ten-year rule... if you're only nine years old, does it mean > you can't post here? No, you can post, you just won't be on topic. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Make your own advancement opportunity. Blackmail your boss. ------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 27 03:54:29 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: RS6000 diagnostic tapes and loopbacks In-Reply-To: References: <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200410211503.08380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041027014639.02e2fec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I missed the RS6000, but did snag the diagnostic kit that was inside the cabinet. Its two tapes, one for the 8 mm drive, and one for the RS6000, and three loopback thingies (two plugs and short cable with weird rectangular connectors on each end). Email me if its something you want. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 27 05:06:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098871571.9680.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 23:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > What, you don't have a junk box? That's the official term for a PC, isn't it? :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 27 05:28:38 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> References: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> Message-ID: <1098872918.9695.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 20:24 -0400, Dave Mabry wrote: > Welcome, Scott, to the Intel MDS Fraternity. Joe R., Jay West (your > list owner), and I are members that I know of. *sticks hand in the air* The museum were given one just a couple of weeks ago that was heading for the dumpster otherwise. Afraid I know nothing about the systems (nor did the chap who had it, it seems, describing it first as an IBM) Anyone have any good resources for info on the machines? >From Dave's description it sounds like a series II as I don't recall an integral drive, just a pair of drives in an external box. A *huge* amount of disks and docs arrived with it though, four or five times the size of the machine itself! I'll take a better look at it in the next few days if I get a chance... cheers Jules From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 27 05:43:21 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> as for the DC37 on the back (yes, they do consider it a d-sub style connector). The more important question is what the two bottom cards are in the card cage. They are normally a two board disk controller from Intel (bit slice processor). As long as the controller was made by Intel, then the DC37 pinout should be compatible with this hardware or Intel's. I seem to recall a company called Zendex that made compatible items for the MDS series. Intel made a MDS220 and a MDS230. In either one, you could make a choice as to the density of the internal drive. As I said before, if there is a 50 pin ribbon cable between the back board (IOC) and the drive, then it is wired for SD. If an internal cable comes from the front to the disk drive, then it is wired as DD. I have both types of cables at home... About your comment on monitor troubleshooting. I have the schematic set for the Ball Brothers monitor that was usually used in the MDS2XX series. The nice thing about the monitor is that it is very simple. There is no fancy monitor control chip in it, in fact it doesn't even have any chips on it if I recall correctly. The monitor was usually supplied by Ball Brothers or Zenith. The back IOC supplies +12V poower, vertical, horizontal, and video intensity signals for display. By the way, the top card with all the switches on it is the CPU card. There were three versions of it that I know of. The first was 8080 based and only had 32K on it. I believe the remaining two versions were 8085 based with the first having 32K and the final one having 64K. If you only have 16 ram chips on your cpu board, then the next card down would or should be a 32K ram card. best regards, Steve Thatcher (one of the other MDS guys) -----Original Message----- From: Scott Stevens > >The internal drive could be either SD or DD. If there is a 50 pin ribbon >connecting the drive to the back board in the system, then you have an >internal single density drive. If there is a cable running from one of the >front cards to the drive, then it has been hooked up as double density. > Actually, there's an added-in non-Intel jack on the back (I think 37 pin 'D' shaped but as everybody knows, probably not a 'Dsub' due to size) that the external dual-8" floppy enclosure plugs into. I suspect the system may have had something third-party added to support the two external drives, and some of the disks are labeled to indicate they are 'higher' density than the internal drive will support. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 27 05:57:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: anyone have INS8154 ICs? Message-ID: <1098874670.9680.38.camel@weka.localdomain> Don't suppose anyone has a couple of INS8154 chips lying around in their junk box do they? I've been talking to a chap trying to restore a pair of Acorn System 1's, both of which are missing the INS8154 chips... Didn't occur to me at the time to ask here just in case :-) cheers Jules From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 27 06:19:25 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <417F843D.2050803@mich.com> All this talk about my favorite computer systems is making me want to fire mine up again and "play". Steve, I never heard of an 8085-based cpu card for the Series II with only 32K of ram. Are you sure about that version? I'd bet that was not an option. I have several of both 8080- and 8085-based cpu cards. As for the 8085-based system, if you have that in your MDS Series II it was called a 225 or 235 (the 23X signifying that it was shipped with double density controller boards and an external 2-drive case). The 220 and 225 were shipped with only the integral 8" drive and were single-density as delivered. Anyone could "mix 'n match" after it was delivered and make any version out of any version. So the model number on the sticker on the back doesn't mean what the system has in it now. Yes, Zendex made lots of cool boards for Intel multibus systems, including the development systems. I think they made a one-board diskette controller that could substitute for the two-board set from Intel. I never used one but always thought it would be cool to have it. Save a slot. And Jules, WELCOME to the fraternity!!! As for the question of whether to replace failed chips with working ones at the risk of making the systems "non factory original"...I totally agree with Tony. WHATEVER it takes to make the things work!!! Dave Steve Thatcher wrote: > as for the DC37 on the back (yes, they do consider it a d-sub style > connector). The more important question is what the two bottom cards > are in the card cage. They are normally a two board disk controller > from Intel (bit slice processor). As long as the controller was made > by Intel, then the DC37 pinout should be compatible with this > hardware or Intel's. I seem to recall a company called Zendex that > made compatible items for the MDS series. > > Intel made a MDS220 and a MDS230. In either one, you could make a > choice as to the density of the internal drive. As I said before, if > there is a 50 pin ribbon cable between the back board (IOC) and the > drive, then it is wired for SD. If an internal cable comes from the > front to the disk drive, then it is wired as DD. I have both types of > cables at home... > > About your comment on monitor troubleshooting. I have the schematic > set for the Ball Brothers monitor that was usually used in the MDS2XX > series. The nice thing about the monitor is that it is very simple. > There is no fancy monitor control chip in it, in fact it doesn't even > have any chips on it if I recall correctly. The monitor was usually > supplied by Ball Brothers or Zenith. The back IOC supplies +12V > poower, vertical, horizontal, and video intensity signals for > display. > > By the way, the top card with all the switches on it is the CPU card. > There were three versions of it that I know of. The first was 8080 > based and only had 32K on it. I believe the remaining two versions > were 8085 based with the first having 32K and the final one having > 64K. If you only have 16 ram chips on your cpu board, then the next > card down would or should be a 32K ram card. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher (one of the other MDS guys) > > -----Original Message----- From: Scott Stevens > > >> The internal drive could be either SD or DD. If there is a 50 pin >> ribbon connecting the drive to the back board in the system, then >> you have an internal single density drive. If there is a cable >> running from one of the front cards to the drive, then it has been >> hooked up as double density. >> > > > Actually, there's an added-in non-Intel jack on the back (I think 37 > pin 'D' shaped but as everybody knows, probably not a 'Dsub' due to > size) that the external dual-8" floppy enclosure plugs into. I > suspect the system may have had something third-party added to > support the two external drives, and some of the disks are labeled to > indicate they are 'higher' density than the internal drive will > support. > > From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 27 06:48:01 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <2105876.1098877681948.JavaMail.root@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the 8085/32K thing could be a memory issue (mine...). I have three different cpu cards and will take a "better" look at them tonight. I probably got my processors crossed... -----Original Message----- From: Dave Mabry Steve, I never heard of an 8085-based cpu card for the Series II with only 32K of ram. Are you sure about that version? I'd bet that was not an option. I have several of both 8080- and 8085-based cpu cards. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 08:35:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <1098872918.9695.12.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jules, I'd love to hear what kind of hardware, software and manuals you got with your's. Joe At 10:28 AM 10/27/04 +0000, Jules wrote: >On Tue, 2004-10-26 at 20:24 -0400, Dave Mabry wrote: >> Welcome, Scott, to the Intel MDS Fraternity. Joe R., Jay West (your >> list owner), and I are members that I know of. > >*sticks hand in the air* > >The museum were given one just a couple of weeks ago that was heading >for the dumpster otherwise. Afraid I know nothing about the systems (nor >did the chap who had it, it seems, describing it first as an IBM) > >Anyone have any good resources for info on the machines? > >>From Dave's description it sounds like a series II as I don't recall an >integral drive, just a pair of drives in an external box. > >A *huge* amount of disks and docs arrived with it though, four or five >times the size of the machine itself! > >I'll take a better look at it in the next few days if I get a chance... > >cheers > >Jules > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 27 08:39:18 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122143.100684c0@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041023094338.108355f0@pc> <6.1.2.0.2.20041026122143.100684c0@pc> Message-ID: <417FA506.8010303@sbcglobal.net> Well I finally found the disk manager floppies I was thinking of... Ontrack DiskManager v.2.4 dated 6/12/98 (mfg. for IBM) Ontrack DiskManager v.? dated 1/8/99 (my note says something about Quantum?) Western Digital EZ Drive v.8.01W dated 1995 - 1996 ...of course, I don't have the e-mail address of who was looking for them. Or maybe there's an appropriate FTP server to drop the files on? I created images using RAWREAD on a windows PC. Sorry, it's all I have at them moment... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Oct 27 09:01:08 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111336E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Dave, I *was* looking for OnTrack Disk Manager. The manufacturer specific versions only work when they detect a drive of their own brand, otherwise the software simply stops. I found on the Internet the OnTrack version for IBM, Fujitsu, MicroScience and Western Digital. The drive I tried to "manage" is from HP ... I received from Pete an OnTrack version (original) which works with *all* disks ... I won the auction on eBay so in a few days/weeks I'll have the original documentation/manual too. I can scan the manual if anybody is interested. The version from eBay is 7.0? Contact off-list if anybody is interested (gooiAToceDOTnl). I appreciate your work, Dave, but the disk already runs perfectly. thanks anyway, - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Woyciesjes > Sent: woensdag 27 oktober 2004 15:39 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: access to BIOS of DECpc > > > Well I finally found the disk manager floppies I was > thinking of... > Ontrack DiskManager v.2.4 dated 6/12/98 (mfg. for IBM) > Ontrack DiskManager v.? dated 1/8/99 (my note says something > about Quantum?) > Western Digital EZ Drive v.8.01W dated 1995 - 1996 > > ...of course, I don't have the e-mail address of who was looking for > them. Or maybe there's an appropriate FTP server to drop the files on? > I created images using RAWREAD on a windows PC. Sorry, > it's all I have at them moment... > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 27 09:11:07 2004 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111336E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A0111336E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <417FAC7B.2080502@sbcglobal.net> Well, you got what you needed, that's the good thing. But still, is there someone/someplace I can send these, so they're available to someone who needs them? Gooijen H wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I *was* looking for OnTrack Disk Manager. > The manufacturer specific versions only work when they detect a drive > of their own brand, otherwise the software simply stops. I found on > the Internet the OnTrack version for IBM, Fujitsu, MicroScience and > Western Digital. The drive I tried to "manage" is from HP ... > > I received from Pete an OnTrack version (original) which works with > *all* disks ... I won the auction on eBay so in a few days/weeks I'll > have the original documentation/manual too. I can scan the manual if > anybody is interested. The version from eBay is 7.0? Contact off-list > if anybody is interested (gooiAToceDOTnl). > > I appreciate your work, Dave, but the disk already runs perfectly. > > thanks anyway, > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Woyciesjes >>Sent: woensdag 27 oktober 2004 15:39 >>To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: access to BIOS of DECpc >> >> >> Well I finally found the disk manager floppies I was >>thinking of... >>Ontrack DiskManager v.2.4 dated 6/12/98 (mfg. for IBM) >>Ontrack DiskManager v.? dated 1/8/99 (my note says something >>about Quantum?) >>Western Digital EZ Drive v.8.01W dated 1995 - 1996 >> >>...of course, I don't have the e-mail address of who was looking for >>them. Or maybe there's an appropriate FTP server to drop the files on? >> I created images using RAWREAD on a windows PC. Sorry, >>it's all I have at them moment... >> >>-- -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From arlen at acm.org Wed Oct 27 09:44:46 2004 From: arlen at acm.org (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Intel iPDS 100 boot disks / software?] In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041026173340.02f9e590@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >> Glen Slick wrote: >> >>> Anyone know where I can get some boot disks and other software for an >>> Intel iPDS 100? Speaking of which, does anyone have software specifically for the 8086 In-Circuit-Emulator add-on for the iPDS 100? Arlen Michaels From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 27 09:55:58 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1098888958.9680.68.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 09:35 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > Jules, > > I'd love to hear what kind of hardware, software and manuals you got with > your's. > > Joe I'll have a look and see if I can do some sort of inventory. We've got a series 1 machine as it turns out too (blue case) - I always thought it belonged to one of the group, but apparently it is owned by the museum. I'll have a look-see as to exctly what that one is too (I know there's no docs or disks with that machine though) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 09:58:14 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: update for classiccmp.org mirror of bitsavers Message-ID: <003e01c4bc35$869cd450$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> FYI; The classiccmp.org mirror of bitsavers used to just mirror the pdf section. As of this morning it now mirrors the entire bitsavers archive, not just the pdfs. You can access the mirror at www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers Jay From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 27 11:00:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER Message-ID: <200410271600.JAA16323@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >>> Many on this list [but not me] consider current WinTel machines to >>> suitable for anything. > >Well, I wouldn't go that far. But I have two peecee machines. > >> Yes, I think the risk is low. Even if they had such a machine, they >> would, most likely, be embarrassed to state that to the group, > >:-) I'm not embarrassed to say I have them. After all, one of them is >the machine I've been trying to write a KA630 emulator on! (The other >one exists principally to store my ripped-CD collection - as soon as I >buy a CD I rip it.) Hi der Mouse I'll have to admit that I have a couple as well. Still, if something broke on one, I'd not have any ill feelings about sending it off to the recycler and making a trip to Fry's to replace it. It is just a toaster to me. I treasure some of my other machines. Dwight From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 27 11:08:51 2004 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: Digital Research Concurrent DOS/386 2.0 .... In-Reply-To: <417D5C65.9060000@cavs.msstate.edu> References: <417D5C65.9060000@cavs.msstate.edu> Message-ID: <26c11a64041027090822a19402@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 15:04:53 -0500, Daniel Hamilton wrote: > Hello, > > I saw a newsgroup posting where you mentioned having the binary images > of this version of Concurrent DOS. I'm an antique OS collector, and I > was wondering if you still have this files, and if so would you be > willing to share them? If you are, could you kindly upload them to the > following server: > > ftp://ps2supersite.homedns.org/incoming > > I have many old OSes that I would be will to share with you as well, so > ask and I'll see if I have it! > > Thank you, > Daniel Hamilton > Did anyone upload it, if so could I download it from somewhere. Thanks Dan From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 27 03:45:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I seem to recall a company called Zendex that made compatible items for > the MDS series. Yes, I've got a box made by them which is basically a clone of an Intel development system. And, last I checked a few years ago, they are still in business right down the freeway from me in Dublin, California. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 27 12:08:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <200410271708.KAA16350@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >I recently acquired an exciting new (old) machine, an Intel MDS 800, >known as the 'Blue Box.' It's the 1975-era 8080 based box that kicked >off CP/M. > >My particular machine was intended as an 8051 ICE box, it has the 8051 >emulator pod and external PROM programmer. > >The system came complete with a big box of what appears to be complete >docs and a lot of software on 8" disks. There are four or more >different versions of IRIS, a disk labeled 'CPM' which I hope is a >boot disk, and multiple versions of other Intel tools, including the >targeted 8051 development tools. > >I paid a fair amount for this system, and am going to go slowly at >bringing it up. It's been stored a long time and there's a troubling >amount of surface rust on some of the screw heads and exposed >hardware. > >I've popped it open and some of the ICs (mostly TTL) have corrosion on >the leads. I have a few opening questions for others who have >restored hardware in similar condition: should I remove the corrosion >on IC leads, or do I run the risk of 'removing' the leads. The >circuit boards look really good, so worst-case I will replace some of >the chips. Hi Scott First, make sure you can find a replacement device and then wiggle or squeeze the lead a little with some needle nose. If it crushes or fails, replace the chip. The problem is that may IC's used iron cores and the solder plate would actually cause electrolysis and rot the core out of the lead. > >What is the opinion about this kind of servicing? The chips in >question are all (so far as I have investigated) common 7400 series >(some Schottky) TTL gates. Do people consider it as 'damaging' to the >'credentials' of a piece of classic hardware to replace chips with >others with significantly different date codes? I rate making it work more important than date codes. Still, most often when I buy onesy-twossies, I get them from some surplus place and they have old date codes anyway. > >This is going to be a long term project for me, I fear, because I want >to do it right. This machine has a built-in CRT display so I might be >forced to do some (something I almost always refuse to do these days) >video monitor troubleshooting. > >The machine has a built-in 8" floppy, which I assume is the >low-density original, and an expansion case (third party) with two >newer and higher density drives. > >Is there a source for new or NOS 8" floppies out there? One thing for >certain that I'll be doing early after getting this machine up and >running is a backup of all the media that came with it (a fair amount, >probably 30-50 disks, many of which are Intel branded originals). > >Lots more questions and comments likely to come on this project. > >Scott > > Hi Scott I used to use both the Series II's and the MDS800's as well when I worked at Intel in the late 70's. I wrote some code in both assembler and PL/M. Both the Series II and the 800's could run the same software. Of course, if the software was for a '86 processor, you'd need a board with that on it. When looking at the boards, don't confuse the IOC board with the main processor for the system. The IOC board has a 8085 on it but it only runs the various I/O functions. The main processor will be one of the cards on the multi-buss slots. The main processor could have been a 8080, 8085 or a 8086. This all depends on what it came with. I have both a Series II and a MDS800 at home but I've not found time to play with them. I can only play with one at a time. They are on my list to play with. I have a number of disk ( about 60-80 someplace ) and a pile of documents. I still need to catalog what I have but not gotten to it. One thing that would be great, would be to find the bits and pieces that make up the user library. There was a lot of good stuff there. I have some listing from the library and may have information on disk as well but like I say, I just haven't gotten to them yet. Also, Joe, I think I have an extra Series II keyboard. Since I've not had a chance to check things out, I may only have one working unit. Still, these are really good keyboards and are not likely to have problems. They use the hall effect switches so there is no mechanical problems other than the springs. Dwight From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Oct 27 13:12:04 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: HP rumor(OT) Message-ID: I saw a piece in the inquirer that HP may spin of the printing division and name it HP, the retained part will have some "other computer name". Maybe they want to get out of the computer business. Maybe somebody will pick up the old DEC portion and revive it. We can only hope. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19297 Mike From tomj at wps.com Wed Oct 27 13:22:50 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Forbes I was reading that 1961 BRL survey, and found the user reports of the IBM 701 fascinating. They apparently had an average uptime of about 2-4 hours. That doesn't seem like much by today's standards, but then how often does Windows crash on you? The amazing thing is how much they paid per calculation. $50,000 rental per month for a typical installation at 500 multiplies per second is about 10,000 multiplies per dollar! We seem to get a better price these days with a typical PC. It's about a trillion multiplies per dollar, which is a factor of 100 million better. -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ From emu at ecubics.com Wed Oct 27 13:30:50 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: HP rumor(OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <417FE95A.7070303@ecubics.com> McFadden, Mike wrote: > I saw a piece in the inquirer that HP may spin of the printing division > and name it HP, the retained part will have some "other computer name". > Maybe they want to get out of the computer business. Maybe somebody > will pick up the old DEC portion and revive it. We can only hope. > > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19297 > > Mike As HP managed it to get DEC back to the size of a garage/mill company, probaby Mr. Olsen is interested again ? ;-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 13:55:33 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: HP rumor(OT) References: <417FE95A.7070303@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <004a01c4bc56$89c142d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >> Maybe they want to get out of the computer business. Maybe somebody >> will pick up the old DEC portion and revive it. We can only hope. and > As HP managed it to get DEC back to the size of a garage/mill company, > probaby Mr. Olsen is interested again ? Well, I'd take the design and engineering of the HP 2100 and HP21MX over any DEC PDP box any day of the week. Let the flames begin *GRIN* Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 27 14:26:50 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041027122056.V25594@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > [first 5150s] > > sported one row of 16Kx1 RAM chips soldered in place, and up to three > > more in sockets, if you ordered more than 16K of memory with your > > system. Also included was the audio-cassette cable, since the first > > Was it? I realise original IBM PCs (5150 machines) have the cassette > port, but I thought you were expected to get the cable from RatShack. > The 5 pin DIN socket has the same pinout as the TRS-80... Out of several dozen original 16K 5150's, including half a dozen of the black power supply ones, and some that had additional blocked off (DB) cutouts, and an extra drive mounting screw coming up from below, including most of the first half dozen machines that arrived in the "east bay" (Computerland El Cerrito), NONE ever included the cassette cable. But, since we had dozens of TRS-80s around, we used those cables. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 27 14:44:46 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <200410270419.AAA24106@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200410262359.QAA15685@clulw009.amd.com> <200410270419.AAA24106@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20041027124100.A25594@shell.lmi.net> > > Many on this list [but not me] consider current WinTel machines to > > suitable for anything. I had some difficulty parsing that sentence. Was there a negative word missing from it? Are Wintel machines suitable for anything? But, just as a "REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in ANY language", a real computer professional can get stuff done with any platform. Compare it to driving a Yugo. It's not your favorite, but you CAN do it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Wed Oct 27 00:01:19 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem Message-ID: <200410270501.BAA14033@ss10.danlan.com> | Hmmm. Somewhere around here [*] I've got paper tapes of Edu-20 and | Edu-20-C, both BASIC multiuser systems for 8K+ PDP-8s. They were both for | paper-tape-only systems, say schools that could only afford the basic 8K | machine and a few Teletypes. (The Edu-20-C was basically an Edu-20 system | which could use Edu-25 commands.) We had Edusystem-20 on an 8/e with two ASR-33s in high school. I remember being surprised to find that the linput command was supported in spite of the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the manuals. Maybe that was 20-C? Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From m_thompson at ids.net Wed Oct 27 08:03:14 2004 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: more good auction finds. In-Reply-To: <20041021005800.GA25245@bos7.spole.gov> References: <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> <41741BE4.1040506@theriver.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20041027090314.00a78738@155.212.1.107> At 12:58 AM 10/21/2004 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 12:39:16PM -0700, Tom Ponsford wrote: >> The real find though was an complete, (monitor,keyboard,cable) apparently >> non-working, Digital Professional 350. On inspection, it has a 000042 >> CTI-bus card, which is a CTI DECNA ethernet card...woohoo. >> >> Spent around 30 dollars for everything. The Ethernet board in my Pro-350 died. Anyone have a spare? Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net From kenziem at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 15:55:38 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: Der Mouse I've got a typewritter Message-ID: <200410271655.39824.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I've got a typewritter in Ottawa, but mail to you keeps getting returned. Also happened when you cleaned out your basement the last time. This message was undeliverable due to the following reason: Your message was not delivered because the destination computer was not reachable within the allowed queue period. The amount of time a message is queued before it is returned depends on local configura- tion parameters. Most likely there is a network problem that prevented delivery, but it is also possible that the computer is turned off, or does not have a mail system running right now. Your message was not delivered within 1 days. Host rodents.montreal.qc.ca is not responding. The following recipients did not receive this message: Final-Recipient: RFC822; Action: failed Status: 4.4.7 Remote-MTA: dns; rodents.montreal.qc.ca -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 15:55:06 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <1098888958.9680.68.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027165506.008e8c10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:55 PM 10/27/04 +0000, you wrote: >On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 09:35 -0400, Joe R. wrote: >> Jules, >> >> I'd love to hear what kind of hardware, software and manuals you got with >> your's. >> >> Joe > >I'll have a look and see if I can do some sort of inventory. > >We've got a series 1 machine as it turns out too (blue case) AFIK all of the MDS2xxs (including the blue ones) are series II machines. I've never heard of anything that Intel designated as a Series I. Most of the Series II machines have blue cases but some of them have white cases. The white ones are thought to be later machines but no one knows for sure. Just to further confuse the issue, ANY of the MDS2xxs can be upgraded to series III by adding a 8086 Resident Processor Card. I believe the MDS800s can also be upgraded to Series III the same way. Joe - I always >thought it belonged to one of the group, but apparently it is owned by >the museum. I'll have a look-see as to exctly what that one is too (I >know there's no docs or disks with that machine though) > >cheers > >Jules > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 15:59:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027165913.008ea850@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:45 AM 10/27/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> I seem to recall a company called Zendex that made compatible items for >> the MDS series. > >Yes, I've got a box made by them which is basically a clone of an Intel >development system. And, last I checked a few years ago, they are still >in business right down the freeway from me in Dublin, California. They're definitely still in business. See . I called them and they sent me some docs on one of their products about a year ago. I have several Zendex items including a Zendex Multibus chassis. They make some interesting stuff. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 16:05:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! In-Reply-To: References: <4310847.1098873801537.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027170539.008ec800@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went to one of my favorite scrap sources today but I was just there a few days ago so I didn't expect to find anything. But I was wrong! I found a NICE F series HP 1000 along with the Floating Point Unit. I haven't looked at it closely yet but all the card slots are full and it's in very good condition. It was mounted in a short (desk height) HP cabinet marked "HP 1000 System" along the top. Unfortunately I had to leave the cabinet, it was just too big and heavy fit in the vehicle that I was in. I'll go through the computer later and give a full list of all the stuff in it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 16:37:50 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: Solbourne 600 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027173750.0094be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found one of these today but didn't pick it up. Should I have? I don't know anything about these, anybody care to enlighten me? Joe From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 27 16:43:57 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I concur with Joe, there never was a series I. The mds800 was the first development system (not counting the Intellec 8). What Siemens did though was contract with Intel to produce a "Siemens" development system which was of course just a different color Series II machine. They were off white and carried the Siemens logo. -----Original Message----- From: "Joe R." AFIK all of the MDS2xxs (including the blue ones) are series II machines. I've never heard of anything that Intel designated as a Series I. Most of the Series II machines have blue cases but some of them have white cases. The white ones are thought to be later machines but no one knows for sure. Just to further confuse the issue, ANY of the MDS2xxs can be upgraded to series III by adding a 8086 Resident Processor Card. I believe the MDS800s can also be upgraded to Series III the same way. Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 27 16:45:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! Message-ID: <200410272145.OAA16481@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > I went to one of my favorite scrap sources today but I was just there a >few days ago so I didn't expect to find anything. But I was wrong! I found >a NICE F series HP 1000 along with the Floating Point Unit. I haven't >looked at it closely yet but all the card slots are full and it's in very >good condition. It was mounted in a short (desk height) HP cabinet marked >"HP 1000 System" along the top. Unfortunately I had to leave the cabinet, >it was just too big and heavy fit in the vehicle that I was in. I'll go >through the computer later and give a full list of all the stuff in it. > > Joe > Hi Joe You know that most racks can be flattened without too much effort. Dwight From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 27 16:44:55 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041027165506.008e8c10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <417EEAC9.4070904@mich.com> <3.0.6.32.20041027093513.00951100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041027165506.008e8c10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <418016D7.9040003@mich.com> Joe R. wrote: > > AFIK all of the MDS2xxs (including the blue ones) are series II machines. > I've never heard of anything that Intel designated as a Series I. Most of > the Series II machines have blue cases but some of them have white cases. > The white ones are thought to be later machines but no one knows for sure. > Just to further confuse the issue, ANY of the MDS2xxs can be upgraded to > series III by adding a 8086 Resident Processor Card. I believe the MDS800s > can also be upgraded to Series III the same way. > > Joe > I know! The white ones WERE the later ones. :) Also, you are correct that the 800 can be a "series III". I've used an RPC in my former :( mds 800. Just had to make sure it was in an odd numbered slot. And I don't know what a "series I" would be either. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 17:01:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:43 PM 10/27/04 -0400, you wrote: >I concur with Joe, there never was a series I. The mds800 was the first development system (not counting the Intellec 8). What Siemens did though was contract with Intel to produce a "Siemens" development system which was of course just a different color Series II machine. They were off white and carried the Siemens logo. I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 feet from me as I type.) Joe > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Joe R." > > AFIK all of the MDS2xxs (including the blue ones) are series II machines. >I've never heard of anything that Intel designated as a Series I. Most of >the Series II machines have blue cases but some of them have white cases. >The white ones are thought to be later machines but no one knows for sure. >Just to further confuse the issue, ANY of the MDS2xxs can be upgraded to >series III by adding a 8086 Resident Processor Card. I believe the MDS800s >can also be upgraded to Series III the same way. > > Joe > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Oct 27 16:59:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:17 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <200410272159.OAA16488@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 02:55 PM 10/27/04 +0000, you wrote: >>On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 09:35 -0400, Joe R. wrote: >>> Jules, >>> >>> I'd love to hear what kind of hardware, software and manuals you got with >>> your's. >>> >>> Joe >> >>I'll have a look and see if I can do some sort of inventory. >> >>We've got a series 1 machine as it turns out too (blue case) > > AFIK all of the MDS2xxs (including the blue ones) are series II machines. >I've never heard of anything that Intel designated as a Series I. Most of >the Series II machines have blue cases but some of them have white cases. >The white ones are thought to be later machines but no one knows for sure. >Just to further confuse the issue, ANY of the MDS2xxs can be upgraded to >series III by adding a 8086 Resident Processor Card. I believe the MDS800s >can also be upgraded to Series III the same way. > > Joe I also never heard the term Series I while working there. It was always MDS800 and Series II or III. I believe Joe is correct that one can run a 8086 in the MDS800 as well as any of them. I have never seen a MDS800 in anything other than blue. I've seen a white Series II but I don't know if they were from any specific time period. All the ones we used internally were blue. I believe I saw a gray one as well. Two things were problems with the Series II machines. The early ones did not have shielding and metal coating in the keyboard case. These were very succeptable to static discharge from the operator. The Series II IOC board had a slow serial rate. Most simply modified the setup of the clock rate in the ROM's to get the higher serial rate for the built in terminal. > >- I always >>thought it belonged to one of the group, but apparently it is owned by >>the museum. I'll have a look-see as to exctly what that one is too (I >>know there's no docs or disks with that machine though) >> >>cheers >> >>Jules >> >> > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Oct 27 17:18:21 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: Solbourne 600 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041027173750.0094be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041027173750.0094be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41801EAD.7060105@gifford.co.uk> Joe R. wrote: > I found one of these today but didn't pick it up. Should I have? I don't > know anything about these, anybody care to enlighten me? Solbourne built licenced clones of the Sun SparcStations in the early 1990s. We had some at INMOS for software development under SunOS. I think they had a slightly different kernel from the Suns. Not sure exactly what you get in a model 600, though. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Oct 27 17:15:42 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I was working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM series emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that said Siemens on the outside. > I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all >have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 >feet from me as I type.) > > Joe From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 27 17:28:25 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <37A1C4D8.2B18BD19.0077BA5C@aol.com> There is a series 4 also in the intel MDS line (4XX). I alway thought the MDS 800 was the first series. They didn't use the series numbers then. The ones with the monitors were not plain 800s but 2XXs. A 2XX could be a series III also. I have an original 800 box with no cards installed and a friend has a series II with a bad Ball monitor. Paxton Astoria, OR From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 27 17:27:01 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Der Mouse I've got a typewritter In-Reply-To: <200410271655.39824.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200410271655.39824.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200410272229.SAA28074@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've got a typewritter in Ottawa, > but mail to you keeps getting returned. I sent an off-list response; this on-list message is just in case the off-list reply doesn't make it, since the list is known to get through. kenziem, if you don't get my off-list mail within a reasonable time, drop a short note to the list and I'll look into other alternatives for a communication channel between us. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 27 17:30:17 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> References: <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41802179.6070505@mich.com> I seem to remember that Intel had some sort of marketing agreement with Siemens. There were several Intel products that had Siemens logos on them sold in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't remember the specifics. Steve Thatcher wrote: > I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I > was working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM > series emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that > said Siemens on the outside. > > >> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen >> all >> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting >> about 3 >> feet from me as I type.) >> >> Joe > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Oct 27 18:07:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: YAAYD (Yet another "Ten (0A) year" discussion) (was: GOPHER In-Reply-To: <20041027124100.A25594@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> > > Many on this list [but not me] consider current WinTel >>> > > machines to suitable for anything. >>> >>> I had some difficulty parsing that sentence. Was there a >>> negative word missing from it? Are Wintel machines >>> suitable for anything? >>> >>> Yes. It was supposed to read "...would NOT consider..." but what do you expect I wrote it on a WinTel box From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 18:11:22 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! References: <200410272145.OAA16481@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002501c4bc7a$49a41aa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Is that the lowboy rack with the formica top? Those are pretty nice - and actually not really heavy. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:45 PM Subject: Re: new find: another HP 1000! > >From: "Joe R." >> >> I went to one of my favorite scrap sources today but I was just there a >>few days ago so I didn't expect to find anything. But I was wrong! I found >>a NICE F series HP 1000 along with the Floating Point Unit. I haven't >>looked at it closely yet but all the card slots are full and it's in very >>good condition. It was mounted in a short (desk height) HP cabinet marked >>"HP 1000 System" along the top. Unfortunately I had to leave the cabinet, >>it was just too big and heavy fit in the vehicle that I was in. I'll go >>through the computer later and give a full list of all the stuff in it. >> >> Joe >> > > Hi Joe > You know that most racks can be flattened without too much effort. > Dwight > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Oct 27 18:26:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Paging Ashley Carder.... Message-ID: _____ From: David V. Corbin [mailto:david@dynamicconcepts.us] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:14 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Paging Ashley Carder.... Ashley, If you are around [I sent you a few e-mails no response]. Please give me a ring. I have a possible rescure/purchase that you may be able to help me on.... David Corbin From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 18:24:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/10 Boards? Message-ID: <200410272324.i9RNO1TV006948@onyx.spiritone.com> Does anyone here happen to know what boards a PDP-11/10 should have in it? I don't happen to have that vintage of handbooks handy at the moment. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Oct 27 19:17:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! In-Reply-To: <002501c4bc7a$49a41aa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200410272145.OAA16481@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041027201748.008eb590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't know. The top and front door were missing. It was made of steel and >>appeared<< to be the same as their full height racks but shorter. It's still there and I doubt anyone else will want it so I may get it yet. It's a perfect size for a 1000 and the FP unit. They filled it completely except for a blank 2" plate at the bottom. One unusual thing that I did notice about it was that it had some AC outlets on one SIDE near the bottom. I don't recall ever seeing that on any other rack. It also had the typical HP AC outlet strip in the back at the bottom. Joe At 06:11 PM 10/27/04 -0500, Jay wrote: >Is that the lowboy rack with the formica top? Those are pretty nice - and >actually not really heavy. > >Jay >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:45 PM >Subject: Re: new find: another HP 1000! > > >> >From: "Joe R." >>> >>> I went to one of my favorite scrap sources today but I was just there a >>>few days ago so I didn't expect to find anything. But I was wrong! I found >>>a NICE F series HP 1000 along with the Floating Point Unit. I haven't >>>looked at it closely yet but all the card slots are full and it's in very >>>good condition. It was mounted in a short (desk height) HP cabinet marked >>>"HP 1000 System" along the top. Unfortunately I had to leave the cabinet, >>>it was just too big and heavy fit in the vehicle that I was in. I'll go >>>through the computer later and give a full list of all the stuff in it. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >> Hi Joe >> You know that most racks can be flattened without too much effort. >> Dwight >> >> >> >> > > > From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 27 19:15:34 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/10 Boards? References: <200410272324.i9RNO1TV006948@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <007001c4bc83$4850a980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Does anyone here happen to know what boards a PDP-11/10 should have in it? > I don't happen to have that vintage of handbooks handy at the moment. Here's my inventory notes on the machine... CPU: M7260 KD11-B 11/05 data paths module M7261 KD11-B 11/05 control logic module memory: H214 8-Kword 16-bit H213 (used in MM11-L)(replaced by H215) G110 16 bit 11/05, 11/25, 11/45 Control & Data Loops, HEXx8.5 G231 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch, 8K Decode. G231 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch, 8K Decode. G110 16 bit 11/05, 11/25, 11/45 Control & Data Loops, HEXx8.5 H214 8-Kword 16-bit H213 (used in MM11-L) (replaced by H215) options: DF11 (tbs)(in slot 1) (control panel?) M7254 RK11-D RK05 status control module M7255 RK11-D RK05 disk control module M7256 RK11-D RK05 registers module (data path) M7257 RK11-D RK05 bus control module Hope this helps, John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 18:46:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <1098888958.9680.68.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 27, 4 02:55:58 pm Message-ID: > We've got a series 1 machine as it turns out too (blue case) - I always > thought it belonged to one of the group, but apparently it is owned by > the museum. I'll have a look-see as to exctly what that one is too (I > know there's no docs or disks with that machine though) If a 'series 1' is the sort that uses an external terminal, then I have a fair few manuals, including scheamtics, for it. Let me know if you want me to look anything up. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 19:46:02 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! References: <200410272145.OAA16481@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20041027201748.008eb590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008501c4bc87$7fdeef20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The way several of my HP racks are configured, I'm right at the 15amp limit for the PDU in the rack (and in one particular rack, that's without any hard drives!). The lowboy formica topped rack you speak of is perfect to put a disc drive in, and then you can just wheel that from rack to rack to hook up a drive - either giving a drive to a system that doesn't usually have one, or giving a drive to a system that has a different type of drive. Yeah... I'm actually saying that I use this lowboy rack with a 7906 drive and 13037 controller in it... just like an Iomega portable zip drive. How quaint :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 21:29:54 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: possible rescue Message-ID: <001901c4bc96$02d4bff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Here's what he has.... ---------------------------------------- In general , the complete 11/05 with core and ba11k box, 11/34 cpus and co processors, ?rl01/02 controller?., rk11 controller and spare boards, dl11ws, rk05 heads and some spare parts, plessey tc130 or 131 or both tape controllers , 37 1/2 ips cipher and digi data 9 track tape drives, 45 or 75 ips cipher full size 9 track tape drives, 9 track read after write tape heads for same, tapes, home made tape exersizer, 11/05 spare cpus, some 4 slot unibus backplane, unibus style connectors in case one breaks in a backplane, an rko5 diagnostic test kit, !!!!! a hex unibus extender card!!!!!, a quad unibus prototype pcb, some quad boot cards with eprom/rom with boot loader for several common devices, ? a diode boot card? , vt 52 compatable terminals , several vt 100s, ....welll ....thats all for now. --------------------------------------- Muahahahahahaaaaaaa Now THIS stuff I will do a road trip for :) Jay From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 27 21:47:39 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <417FE95A.7070303@ecubics.com> <004a01c4bc56$89c142d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <048f01c4bc98$7e4330c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> 2:55 PM : > Well, I'd take the design and engineering of the HP 2100 and HP21MX > over any DEC PDP box any day of the week. 10:29 PM > 11/05, ...11/34, ...unibus {etc}, ...vt 52 compatable, ...vt 100s, > Muahahahahahaaaaaaa Now THIS stuff I will do a road trip for :) Make up your mind before the Bushies put out a "FlipFlop" commercial on ya. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 21:55:11 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <417FE95A.7070303@ecubics.com><004a01c4bc56$89c142d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <048f01c4bc98$7e4330c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Make up your mind before the Bushies put out a "FlipFlop" commercial on > ya. Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd still.... *Grin* Jay From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 27 22:08:24 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd > still.... *Grin* > ...IPL her until the RUN switch broke? g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 22:21:59 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: possible rescue In-Reply-To: <001901c4bc96$02d4bff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001901c4bc96$02d4bff0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >Here's what he has.... >---------------------------------------- >In general , the complete 11/05 with core and ba11k box, 11/34 cpus >and co processors, ?rl01/02 controller?., rk11 controller and spare >boards, dl11ws, rk05 heads and some spare parts, plessey tc130 or >131 or both tape controllers , 37 1/2 ips cipher and digi data 9 >track tape drives, 45 or 75 ips cipher full size 9 track tape >drives, 9 track read after write tape heads for same, tapes, home >made tape exersizer, 11/05 spare cpus, some 4 slot unibus backplane, >unibus style connectors in case one breaks in a backplane, an rko5 >diagnostic test kit, !!!!! a hex unibus extender card!!!!!, a quad >unibus prototype pcb, some quad boot cards with eprom/rom with boot >loader for several common devices, ? a diode boot card? , vt 52 >compatable terminals , several vt 100s, ....welll ....thats all for >now. >--------------------------------------- > >Muahahahahahaaaaaaa Now THIS stuff I will do a road trip for :) > >Jay Dang, and the PDP-11/20 I have a line on only has the CPU, 16KW of core, AND the guy wants way to much for it. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 22:24:28 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <417FE95A.70 70303@ecubics.com><004a01c4bc56$89c142d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <048f01c4bc98$7e4330c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: >>Make up your mind before the Bushies put out a "FlipFlop" commercial on ya. > >Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd >still.... *Grin* > >Jay OK, now that is insulting! How dare you compare DEC to that tramp! Especially considering who is running HP these days! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 27 22:26:03 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East Message-ID: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd > still.... *Grin* Nah, wouldn't want her. She is a brainless shrub supporter. Michael Moore quoted her in Fahrenheit 9/11 as saying something like "it's unpatriotic to ever question the President". MS From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 27 22:36:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Michael > Moore quoted her in Fahrenheit 9/11 as saying something like "it's > unpatriotic to ever question the President". OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. J From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 27 22:44:26 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East Message-ID: <0410280344.AA13124@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? That's like > quoting news stories from the Enquirer. He captured her saying it on camera, in her own voice with video. You are not going to suggest that he synthesized her voice and moving image, are you? MS From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 27 22:46:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20041027204414.K37089@shell.lmi.net> > OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? That's like > quoting news stories from the Enquirer. Michael S. quoting MIchael Moore, quoting Britney, about the president. The only thing we are missing from that is Windoze! From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 27 15:15:47 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd > > still.... *Grin* > > > ...IPL her until the RUN switch broke? Mount her until you wore out your disk? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 27 23:10:38 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Cromemco Rescue Message-ID: <4180713E.65F857F9@rain.org> I was contacted a couple of weeks ago by someone moving and needing to get rid of their old computers; one of them was a Cromemco Series 3 with two 8" floppies and some misc. discs. Besides the System 3, it also included the computer desk that came with the unit! We finally managed to make contact this past weekend, and it is one neat system! I have the System 3 with a HD, but the floppies only and the desk are *neat* additions to the collection!!! Also, does anyone know if the Cromemco will read the Polymorphic 8" disks? It will probably be after VCF that I will have a chance to play with it and find out, but I am really curious. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 27 15:18:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > > Michael > > Moore quoted her in Fahrenheit 9/11 as saying something like "it's > > unpatriotic to ever question the President". > > OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? That's like > quoting news stories from the Enquirer. Well, underneath it all, the stories in the Enquirer in the very least have a basic kernel of truth, if not expose the truth altogether. So.... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Oct 27 15:19:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041027204414.K37089@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? That's like > > quoting news stories from the Enquirer. > > Michael S. > > quoting MIchael Moore, > > quoting Britney, > > about the president. > > > The only thing we are missing from that is Windoze! Who would you rather have as President? a) Michael Sokolov b) Michael Moore c) Britney Spears d) the current jackass Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 27 23:32:22 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? Message-ID: <20041027.213222.1260.28.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Photo at: http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg Andybody need/want this? The socket adaptors are: 715-1039 715-1028-1 715-1035-2 The fourth plug-in says that it is a calibrator program adaptor . . . . Jeff From john at guntersville.net Wed Oct 27 23:40:53 2004 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? References: <20041027.213222.1260.28.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <41807855.F7F38D5A@guntersville.net> jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > Photo at: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > > Andybody need/want this? > > The socket adaptors are: > > 715-1039 > 715-1028-1 > 715-1035-2 > > The fourth plug-in says that it is a calibrator program adaptor . . . . > > Jeff Prom programmer From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 27 23:48:43 2004 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? Message-ID: <20041027.214843.1260.30.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Well yes, I suppose I should have been more careful: It goes with one of their programmers, but which one? On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:40:53 -0500 "John C. Ellingboe" writes: > jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > > > Photo at: > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > > > > Andybody need/want this? > > > > The socket adaptors are: > > > > 715-1039 > > 715-1028-1 > > 715-1035-2 > > > > The fourth plug-in says that it is a calibrator program adaptor . > . . . > > > > Jeff > > Prom programmer ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 28 00:11:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Who would you rather have as President? > a) Michael Sokolov > b) Michael Moore > c) Britney Spears > d) the current jackass Without question, a) Michael Sokolov. > Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) Does anybody here know Bill Gates' political views? From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 28 00:22:27 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> References: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41808213.3070809@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>Who would you rather have as President? >>a) Michael Sokolov >>b) Michael Moore >>c) Britney Spears >>d) the current jackass > > > Without question, a) Michael Sokolov. Dammit Fred, if you hadn't answered I'd have ignored that. If this is the choices, I'm gonna write-in for J-Lo. >>Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) > > > Does anybody here know Bill Gates' political views? Mo' Money. Doc From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Oct 28 00:40:44 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: <200410270501.BAA14033@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: Quoth Dan Lanciani: > We had Edusystem-20 on an 8/e with two ASR-33s in high school. I remember > being surprised to find that the linput command was supported in spite of > the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the manuals. Maybe that was 20-C? Very likely. That's how we discovered it too. :) -O.- From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Oct 28 01:00:19 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: PDP-11/10 Boards? Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113370@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Check www.pdp-11.nl and click on the link 11/10 at the left. There is also a boards position lay-out for the *4* different backplanes ... Let me know if you miss something; new info is aways a stimulus to update the pages; as hearing they are read. - Henk, PA8PDP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain > Sent: donderdag 28 oktober 2004 2:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/10 Boards? > > > > Does anyone here happen to know what boards a PDP-11/10 > should have in it? > > I don't happen to have that vintage of handbooks handy at > the moment. > > Here's my inventory notes on the machine... > > CPU: > M7260 KD11-B 11/05 data paths module > M7261 KD11-B 11/05 control logic module > memory: > H214 8-Kword 16-bit H213 (used in MM11-L)(replaced by H215) > G110 16 bit 11/05, 11/25, 11/45 Control & Data Loops, HEXx8.5 > G231 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch, 8K Decode. > G231 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch, 8K Decode. > G110 16 bit 11/05, 11/25, 11/45 Control & Data Loops, HEXx8.5 > H214 8-Kword 16-bit H213 (used in MM11-L) (replaced by H215) > options: > DF11 (tbs)(in slot 1) (control panel?) > M7254 RK11-D RK05 status control module > M7255 RK11-D RK05 disk control module > M7256 RK11-D RK05 registers module (data path) > M7257 RK11-D RK05 bus control module > > Hope this helps, > John A. > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Oct 28 04:02:26 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? In-Reply-To: <20041027.214843.1260.30.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20041027.214843.1260.30.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028020216.035d5dd0@mail.zipcon.net> model 29 I think At 09:48 PM 10/27/2004, you wrote: >Well yes, I suppose I should have been more careful: It goes with >one of their programmers, but which one? > >On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:40:53 -0500 "John C. Ellingboe" > writes: > > jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > > > > > Photo at: > > > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > > > > > > Andybody need/want this? > > > > > > The socket adaptors are: > > > > > > 715-1039 > > > 715-1028-1 > > > 715-1035-2 > > > > > > The fourth plug-in says that it is a calibrator program adaptor . > > . . . > > > > > > Jeff > > > > Prom programmer > >________________________________________________________________ >Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. >Now includes pop-up blocker! >Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 05:25:50 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028052306.0350ce58@192.168.0.1> At 03:18 PM 10/27/2004, you wrote: >Well, underneath it all, the stories in the Enquirer in the very least >have a basic kernel of truth, if not expose the truth altogether. Yes, according to "Men In Black" it's some of the best reporting on the planet. And Micheal Moore makes movies too, with real images and sound and all, so you gotta believe him also. I mean it's nonsensical and probably really unpatriotic not to! And in a token effort to bring this closer to on-topic: it's all binary, 0 and 1, it's all true or it's all lies. Right? Ed K. From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 05:36:33 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028053128.0311be48@192.168.0.1> At 12:11 AM 10/28/2004, you wrote: >Does anybody here know Bill Gates' political views? "What's good for the country is good for General Motors, and vice versa." - Charles Wilson Ed K. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 28 07:06:41 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? Message-ID: <20041028120641.PVPG14765.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 21:32 27/10/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >Photo at: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > >Andybody need/want this? > >The socket adaptors are: > >715-1039 >715-1028-1 >715-1035-2 > >The fourth plug-in says that it is a calibrator program adaptor . . . . Hi Jeff, This is an device programming adapter which looks like it might fit my Data I/O 29B. I haven't looked up the individual sockets to see what devices they are for, so I don't know if this would do anything my multipak won't already do, however I would be interested in playing with it - what do you want for it? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 28 07:31:08 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: HP's obtained Message-ID: <002901c4bcea$0091f0b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Looks like I won two of the gov. liquidation auctions, and just purchased nine of the HP 21MX M-series cpu's. I'm keeping a few, the others are already destined for collectors on the list. Guess maybe someday I should get an F series to round out the product line :) Did anyone here win the other lot with 8 cpu's? Jay PS - my comparison of Britney to DEC was not intended as a slam to DEC. I happen to adore Britney (looks, not music), but monroe was a classier package :) As to the choices for president, I'll take sellams "d" choice :) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 28 08:13:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <"417FE95A.70 70303"@ecubics.com> <004a01c4bc56$89c142d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <048f01c4bc98$7e4330c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <004b01c4bc99$8ac0dd10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041028091308.00953df0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:24 PM 10/27/04 -0700, Zane wrote: >>>Make up your mind before the Bushies put out a "FlipFlop" commercial on ya. >> >>Analogy: Britney Spears (DEC) is no Marilyn Monroe (HP), BUT... I'd >>still.... *Grin* >> >>Jay > >OK, now that is insulting! How dare you compare DEC to that tramp! >Especially considering who is running HP these days! That's one reason that we have a ten year rule! The "new" HP -- yuck! Joe From cmcnabb at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 08:18:25 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: References: <200410270501.BAA14033@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <145cecdd041028061825b9b3ee@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:40:44 -0700 (PDT), O. Sharp wrote: > > Quoth Dan Lanciani: > > > We had Edusystem-20 on an 8/e with two ASR-33s in high school. I remember > > being surprised to find that the linput command was supported in spite of > > the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the manuals. Maybe that was 20-C? > If anyone wants to "Digitize" edusystem20, I've got it on paper tape. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 28 08:37:12 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: >> Michael Moore quoted her in Fahrenheit 9/11 as saying something >> like "it's unpatriotic to ever question the President". Jay> OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? Jay> That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. Actually, I thought it's more like quoting history from Leni Riefenstahl. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 28 08:40:53 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028083852.04a537e8@pc> At 03:18 PM 10/27/2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Well, underneath it all, the stories in the Enquirer in the very least >have a basic kernel of truth, if not expose the truth altogether. I was once interviewed by an Enquirer reporter (for an incident that shall remain unnamed). He very much wanted to put words and phrases into my mouth. It wasn't so much an interview as a contest for him to find phrases I would agree to say. I refused, so the story never ran. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 28 08:48:03 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <010b01c4bcf4$c80c2de0$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: West meets East > >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: > > >> Michael Moore quoted her in Fahrenheit 9/11 as saying something > >> like "it's unpatriotic to ever question the President". > > Jay> OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? > Jay> That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. > > Actually, I thought it's more like quoting history from Leni > Riefenstahl. > > paul > > Kids are stupid, and we want them to vote at 18. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 28 09:08:53 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <37A1C4D8.2B18BD19.0077BA5C@aol.com> References: <37A1C4D8.2B18BD19.0077BA5C@aol.com> Message-ID: <1098972533.11633.77.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 18:28 -0400, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > There is a series 4 also in the intel MDS line (4XX). I alway thought > the MDS 800 was the first series. They didn't use the series numbers > then. The ones with the monitors were not plain 800s but 2XXs. A 2XX > could be a series III also. That just totally cooked my brain :-) 'series 1' was just a name I made up because I don't think that the blue-cased machine we have is a series II or III, so it was just a logical guess. Trust Intel to prove me wrong :) It'd be nice if the blue-cased machine was one with a 4004; I'm not sure if we have anything with a 4004 CPU in it. cheers Jules From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 28 09:09:31 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <41808213.3070809@mdrconsult.com> References: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041028094623.04c55528@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Doc Shipley may have mentioned these words: >Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>Who would you rather have as President? >>>a) Michael Sokolov >>>b) Michael Moore >>>c) Britney Spears >>>d) the current jackass >> >>Without question, a) Michael Sokolov. > > Dammit Fred, if you hadn't answered I'd have ignored that. If this is > the choices, I'm gonna write-in for J-Lo. Yer jokin', right? Her sister Linda is 2x prettier and quite probably 2x smarter, but if _I_ had a write-in, it'd be Vincent D'Nofrio (especially if he retains his "characteristics" of his role on Law & Order... hehehe) Put him in a room with WhoTF wins next week, Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon, lock the doors, and stick it on PPV... Hell, he'd have 'em all cryin' like babies... ;-) >>>Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) >> >>Does anybody here know Bill Gates' political views? > > Mo' Money. Hmmm... Richest man in the world, dropped out of Hahvahd, Mummie & Daddie had to bail him out of bankruptcy once... Yea, no question; he's most definitely a Democrat. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 28 09:51:13 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Oct 2004 21:32:22 PDT." <20041027.213222.1260.28.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200410281451.i9SEpDs8018659@mwave.heeltoe.com> jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > >Andybody need/want this? If no one else takes it, I will. I could use one that blows proms from time to time. -brad From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 28 10:14:21 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: <145cecdd041028061825b9b3ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <200410270501.BAA14033@ss10.danlan.com> <145cecdd041028061825b9b3ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:18 AM -0400 10/28/04, Christopher McNabb wrote: >On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:40:44 -0700 (PDT), O. Sharp wrote: >> >> Quoth Dan Lanciani: >> >> > We had Edusystem-20 on an 8/e with two ASR-33s in high school. I remember >> > being surprised to find that the linput command was supported in spite of >> > the fact that it wasn't mentioned in the manuals. Maybe that was 20-C? >> > >If anyone wants to "Digitize" edusystem20, I've got it on paper tape. I _believe_ Al has the ability to capture paper tapes. Might contact him. I'd like to see this captured. Thanks, John From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Oct 28 10:21:02 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:18 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? Message-ID: <102820041521.28333.41810E5E0002CE9E00006EAD22007503300603970A04040108@comcast.net> These are early programming adapters for the Data I/O Model 19 and earlier programmers. These were used before Data I/O developed the UniPak module which did all PROMs and EPROMs (except the 1702 ERPOM) There are two cards in the large Programming Pak, an analog card and a digital control card. (I forget the correct names.) The digital card had a prom based state machine to control the programing algorithm. The analog card generated the waveforms. This pak could be used in early Data I/O programmers that did not have a microprocessor. The you wanted to program a different part you need to swap cards. The smaller parts a pinout adapters. The two white things in the lower part of the picture look like your feet. http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg ------------------------------- Michael Holley swtpc6800@comcast.net www.swtpc.com ------------------------------- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 28 12:02:26 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East Message-ID: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > ---snip--- > >Who would you rather have as President? > >a) Michael Sokolov >b) Michael Moore >c) Britney Spears >d) the current jackass > >Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) > c) Britney Spears But sadly, she has chosen not to run. How about some better choices that are more realistic. Why doesn't the Democratic Party do a better job of selecting people. It is like idiot vrs. idiot again. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 28 12:11:08 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (doc@mdrconsult.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041028094623.04c55528@mail.30below.com> References: <20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net><20041027221002.I39455@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20041028094623.04c55528@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <13100.143.115.159.54.1098983468.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> > Rumor has it that Doc Shipley may have mentioned these words: >>Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>>Who would you rather have as President? >>>>a) Michael Sokolov >>>>b) Michael Moore >>>>c) Britney Spears >>>>d) the current jackass >>> >>>Without question, a) Michael Sokolov. >> >> Dammit Fred, if you hadn't answered I'd have ignored that. If >> this is >> the choices, I'm gonna write-in for J-Lo. > > Yer jokin', right? Her sister Linda is 2x prettier and quite probably > 2x > smarter, but if _I_ had a write-in, it'd be Vincent D'Nofrio > (especially if > he retains his "characteristics" of his role on Law & Order... hehehe) Yeah, I'm jokin'. Although even J-Lo is a better pick than the current jackass.... >>>Does anybody here know Bill Gates' political views? >> >> Mo' Money. > > Hmmm... Richest man in the world, dropped out of Hahvahd, Mummie & > Daddie > had to bail him out of bankruptcy once... Yea, no question; he's most > definitely a Democrat. Gotta be. A Republican would never have learned from those mistakes. 8-) Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 28 12:18:57 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200410281721.NAA14105@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It [the USA presidential contest] is like idiot vrs. idiot again. Sure. The political mechanisms in place select for popularity, not intelligence (nor even competence at governing). I keep hoping this will be the year some third candidate gets enough votes to be taken seriously, but I don't really expect that to happen. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 28 12:22:22 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: TRS-80 model II keyboard(s) In-Reply-To: <20041027015750.52900.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041027015750.52900.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028131522.02b7db60@mail.netsync.net> Yes! I was given a Model II without a keyboard year ago. I would like to get one for myself. BTW, is the cable attached to the KB or is it a separate part? I need a cable if indeed they are separate. Let me know the costs. Zip Code is 14701. Thanks for offering these to us! -Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 21:57 26-10-04, steven said something like: >Hello, > >I have a couple TRS-80 model II keyboards, as seen at >http://oldcomputers.net/trs80ii.html > >They work, but are not in new condition (they have >wear marks and dirt). > >Does anyone have a use for one? They are not for >re-sale! > >Steve. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 28 12:32:02 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1098984722.11633.101.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 10:02 -0700, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > ---snip--- > > > >Who would you rather have as President? > > > >a) Michael Sokolov > >b) Michael Moore > >c) Britney Spears > >d) the current jackass > > > >Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) > > > > c) Britney Spears > But sadly, she has chosen not to run. I see that those of us outside the US aren't even allowed to view the bush website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3961557.stm gotta love 'net censorship! :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 28 12:41:19 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <200410281721.NAA14105@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <017301c4bd15$5fddf0c0$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: Re: West meets East > > It [the USA presidential contest] is like idiot vrs. idiot again. > > Sure. The political mechanisms in place select for popularity, not > intelligence (nor even competence at governing). > > I keep hoping this will be the year some third candidate gets enough > votes to be taken seriously, but I don't really expect that to happen. > Perot was the only candidate to get any percentage of the vote that I can remember in my lifetime. As long as the media relies on 3 second soundbytes you will end up with simpletons like Bush where everything is black and white yes or no answers. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Oct 28 12:41:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <200410281741.KAA17252@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" --Snip--- > >It'd be nice if the blue-cased machine was one with a 4004; I'm not sure >if we have anything with a 4004 CPU in it. That would be a Mod4. It looks similar to a MDS800 but also has a Zif socket on the front ( not to be confused with Mod40 and Mod8 that also have sockets ). I have one of the smaller setups that is just the programmer card, 4004 cpu card and a motherboard. See: http://www.chrisbot.com/prog/4004/Elvey_4004_dev_sys.jpeg Later Dwight > >cheers > >Jules > > From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 13:44:55 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <200410281721.NAA14105@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028134149.02bc72c0@192.168.0.1> At 12:18 PM 10/28/2004, you wrote: > > It [the USA presidential contest] is like idiot vrs. idiot again. > >Sure. The political mechanisms in place select for popularity, not >intelligence (nor even competence at governing). Yeah, democratic vote is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. Mark Twain described a possible remedy in The Curious Republic of Gondour http://www.readbookonline.net/read/231/7298/ On topic content: "Old things can be better". Ed K. From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 28 13:08:51 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: OT! Re: West meets East Message-ID: <418135B3.86C5C25@rain.org> First, last, and only comment: The idea of "I have a plan" is like a$$holes, everyone has one. Second, ANYONE who starts off a campaign putting down their opponent as the major theme of their campaign has *no* business running or winning that office. I would have a lot more repect for Kerry if he had promoted what he thought was best for the country instead of just attacking Bush. And of course, the media makes more money by promoting this garbage. > Who would you rather have as President? > > a) Michael Sokolov > b) Michael Moore > c) Britney Spears > d) the current jackass > > Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Oct 27 12:14:45 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028134149.02bc72c0@192.168.0.1> References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028134149.02bc72c0@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Seriously,. I am still confused that there are people who want to elect this man to four more years of running this country. To Wit: "You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." --President Gerorge W. Bush, Washington, DC March 31, 2001 "I appreciate people's opinions, but I'm more interested in news. And the best way to get the news is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff who tell me what's happening in the world." -- Fox News interview with Brit Hume, September 22, 2003. "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." -- Trenton, NJ, September 23, 2002. "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" -- Florence, SC, January 11, 2000 "Do you have blacks, too?" -- Washington, DC, March 2001, during Bush's first meeting with Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Reported April 28, 2002 by columnist Fernando Pedreira of the Estado Sao Paulo in an article titled "An Overwhelming Ignorance." "I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." -- aboard AirForce One, June 4 2003. Remember vote early and vote often Cheers Tom > > >> > It [the USA presidential contest] is like idiot vrs. idiot again. >> >> Sure. The political mechanisms in place select for popularity, not >> intelligence (nor even competence at governing). > Yeah, democratic vote is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what's > for dinner. > > Mark Twain described a possible remedy in > The Curious Republic of Gondour > > http://www.readbookonline.net/read/231/7298/ > > On topic content: "Old things can be better". > > Ed K. > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 05:31:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: HP's obtained In-Reply-To: <002901c4bcea$0091f0b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Jay West wrote: > PS - my comparison of Britney to DEC was not intended as a slam to DEC. I > happen to adore Britney (looks, not music), but monroe was a classier > package :) Sorry, Marilyn was a doped out ho with an obnoxious little girl quality that makes me wretch. Britney's a tramp and only nominally more intelligent than Marilyn but if I was forced to choose between the two I'd have to go with Britney. > As to the choices for president, I'll take sellams "d" choice :) I'll still try to love you, Jay. But now I'll know who to blame :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 05:35:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > ---snip--- > > > >Who would you rather have as President? > > > >a) Michael Sokolov > >b) Michael Moore > >c) Britney Spears > >d) the current jackass > > > >Let's see how off-topic this takes us :) > > > > c) Britney Spears > But sadly, she has chosen not to run. > How about some better choices that are more realistic. > Why doesn't the Democratic Party do a better job of selecting > people. It is like idiot vrs. idiot again. Welcome to America! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 05:41:02 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Tom Ponsford wrote: > Seriously,. I am still confused that there are people who want to elect this > man to four more years of running this country. Stunning, isn't it? Which is why the coming exodus is not going to be so much because of who gets elected but because of who elected him. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Oct 28 13:56:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028134149.02bc72c0@192.168.0.1> <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Message-ID: <16769.16616.633090.346464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Ponsford writes: Tom> Seriously,. I am still confused that there are people who want Tom> to elect this man to four more years of running this country. Yes, that's a common feeling among people who can't understand why any politician could possibly disagree with Teddy Kennedy. But in fact there are parties other than the Democratic party, and there are states different from Massachusetts -- and not everybody agrees with Teddy. People wouldn't be nearly so confused if it weren't for the fact that 95% of newspaper reporters and editors are Democrats. paul From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 15:06:26 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028144958.02c9f650@192.168.0.1> At 05:41 AM 10/28/2004, you wrote: > > Seriously,. I am still confused that there are people who want to elect > this > > man to four more years of running this country. > >Stunning, isn't it? Which is why the coming exodus is not going to be so >much because of who gets elected but because of who elected him. > >Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Promises, promises. Do you promise to leave? Alec Baldwin promised the same thing 4 years ago and he's still hanging around. Yap, yap, yap, just a lot of silly pretentious drivel. Ed K. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Oct 28 14:21:27 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Message-ID: <57289.127.0.0.1.1098991287.squirrel@127.0.0.1> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Tom Ponsford wrote: > >> Seriously,. I am still confused that there are people who want to elect >> this >> man to four more years of running this country. As opposed to electing an admitted war criminal who is also guilty of acts of treason while an officer in the American military? Sadder still is the fact that he has rested his campaign on this instead of his 20 years of service in the Senate. Perhaps that's because he and we have nothing to show for those years? > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Stunning, isn't it? Which is why the coming exodus is not going to be so > much because of who gets elected but because of who elected him. That opinion cuts both ways, of course. . . with an election this close and with a population so thoroughly divided we can assume an equal number of pissed off folks no matter who wins the election. I'm with Dwight. Why can't I vote for someone I like rather than always voting against someone I hate? Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Oct 28 14:36:11 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (classiccmp@vintage-computer.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: Big Iron available - Data General Eclipse - plus lots more smaller stuff Message-ID: <58699.127.0.0.1.1098992171.squirrel@127.0.0.1> I went by my local recycler yesterday on the hunt for some items and came away with a list of stuff that might interest folks here. The main item was a DG Eclipse system in two racks with tape drives and more. I didn't spend much time looking at it but can probably get more information if anyone wants it. I also have no idea what the price would be but I can guess that shipping would be the big consideration anyway. The same place had a bunch of smaller items as well including a very clean TRS-80 Mod 3 with a RS dustcover, a Kaypro II, a Franklin Ace 1000, a CoCo that looked like it had seen better days, what looked like an IBM PC Portable in its canvas bag, and a Compupro system with the main chassis and a dual 8" chassis as well (this was wrapped in a pallet and those were the items I could recognize. There's a few cubic yards of other stuff mixed in that may or may not be related.) There were also a good number of vintage terminals stacked about. Several ADM3as in both blue and beige in various states of decay. Most looked serviceable with a couple having a bit of screen rot. The couple I turned on worked. None had the switch covers. There was also a Hazeltine 1500 in nice shape except for the fact that the video was bad and some TeleVideo 925s and 950s that worked but needed TLC. Newer terminals (DEC and Wyse, mostly) were all over the place. There was at least one VT100 that was marked as dead but that looked like it had all of the (yellow) parts. If anyone wants more info on any of this I'll be happy to get what I can or to put you in touch with the shop. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 28 14:39:01 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: OT: West meets East In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028083852.04a537e8@pc> References: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041028083852.04a537e8@pc> Message-ID: <20041028123112.C66059@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > I was once interviewed by an Enquirer reporter (for an incident that > shall remain unnamed). He very much wanted to put words and phrases > into my mouth. It wasn't so much an interview as a contest for > him to find phrases I would agree to say. I refused, so the > story never ran. I can say the same about the Associated Press! Art Hoppe's book "The Perfect Solution to Absolutely Everything" has a great example in the misreporting of a speech that my father made. On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > People wouldn't be nearly so confused if it weren't for the fact that > 95% of newspaper reporters and editors are Democrats. The right wing says that the press is left wing. The left wing says that the press is right wing. People can SEE that the media is lousy, but they can't really pin down WHAT they hate about it, so they associate it with the opposing political party. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From news at computercollector.com Thu Oct 28 14:34:12 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East (enough already) Message-ID: <20041028193412.82298.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not getting involved in this political discussion... as many of you know I'm a (gasp) member of the media, and not just for old computers. Few people are stronger advocates of free speech than I. Having said that, I do feel that "off-topic" on this list ought to mean things that are other TECHNOLOGY topics, such as the WWW discussion from earlier this week. Yes, I once posted a last-minute message asking if anyone wanted to buy some concert tickets. However it's common sense, I think, that topics like politics (and religion, sex, etc.) on this list do nothing but scare away would-be collectors (and existing collectors who don't have my tolerance for this stuff). Now, if there were an (intelligent, not cliched!) debate about which candidate would better serve America's technology platform, that would be different. In fact I encourage that debate. But this current thread, and future ones like it, should stop. ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 585 readers and counting! From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 06:54:48 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028144958.02c9f650@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > >Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. > > Promises, promises. > > Do you promise to leave? When the time is right. > Yap, yap, yap, just a lot of silly pretentious drivel. A jackass brays because that's what he does. Bray, jackass, bray. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 28 14:56:34 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20041028125359.N66059@shell.lmi.net> > Jay> OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? > Jay> That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. > Actually, I thought it's more like quoting history from Leni > Riefenstahl. IFF you were able to ignore the political message, she was a LOT more talented than Moore. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 28 14:58:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: OT! Re: West meets East In-Reply-To: <418135B3.86C5C25@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041028155802.009727a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:08 AM 10/28/04 -0700, Marvin wrote: > >First, last, and only comment: > >The idea of "I have a plan" is like a$$holes, everyone has one. Second, >ANYONE who starts off a campaign putting down their opponent as the >major theme of their campaign has *no* business running or winning that >office. I would have a lot more repect for Kerry if he had promoted what >he thought was best for the country instead of just attacking Bush. Well said! This is also my main objection to Kerry. He acts like he thinks he's a pit bull. All he knows is attack, attack, attack. It's the ONLY thing that he's done in his entire political career. I don't think he has a plan for anything except for more attacks. If he was given the office of president tommorrow I don't think he's have a clue what to do. I'm no fan of GB but I'd certainly choose him over Kerry. The Democratic party has shot themselves in the foot again! Joe From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 16:26:39 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <57289.127.0.0.1.1098991287.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> At 02:21 PM 10/28/2004, you wrote: >That opinion cuts both ways, of course. . . with an election this close >and with a population so thoroughly divided we can assume an equal number >of pissed off folks no matter who wins the election. Call me crazy (or worse) and throw pies at me (or worse), but I think this perception that this is a "close" race is wrong. I think it's going to be a debacle for Kerry just as it was for McGovern in 1972. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/George_McGovern Of course I may be wrong, it happens. Y'all will know then how to judge what I say in the future. But, if it IS a debacle, and you thought it was going to be a "close" race, you have to ask yourself, "Why didn't I see this coming?" I'd say it's because our opinions are malformed due to all the thalidomide the media is spewing. I think we're suckers to soak it up uncritically. But it will be heartening because so many saw through all the BS. And if you're wrong about this election -- it's not close, it's a debacle, then likely your opinions on other things such as Iraq, Afghanistan and N. Korea need some re-evaluation as well having likely been formed by the same disinforming media. I think this election is like when we see someone on eBay hawking some bit of old computer hardware as "rare!" and people fall all over themselves bidding on the thing. Some of say, Hell, I've got 20 of those and walk away. Of course, if it IS close, maybe I'll join Sellam and go elsewhere because how could so many people be fooled. Guess I'll go eat worms as the ditty goes. Ed K. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Oct 28 15:25:07 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028144958.02c9f650@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041028162402.04cfd750@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > > >Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. > > > > Promises, promises. > > > > Do you promise to leave? > >When the time is right. Here ya go, Sellam! http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041024&mode=classic ;-) [[ Altho I must say, I doubt you'll go thru with it! You may be serious about the time, but when the time is right, the money never is! Believe you me, I've considered it, too.... :-/ ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch@30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 07:37:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041028125359.N66059@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Jay> OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? > > Jay> That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. > > Actually, I thought it's more like quoting history from Leni > > Riefenstahl. > > IFF you were able to ignore the political message, > she was a LOT more talented than Moore. Moore is way overrated. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 28 15:34:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: OT (probably): HP T500, HPUX and multiple CPUs Message-ID: <1098995664.11633.132.camel@weka.localdomain> Actually I'm not quite sure how old the machine is - maybe it is ten years old now and so on topic just... Anyhow, are there any experts out there who know if a specific version of HPUX is needed to run with SMP support on an HP 9000 T500? We've got a 6-CPU T500 at the museum with HPUX 11.xx on it, but according to the status LEDs it's just running everything on the one CPU with the other 5 sitting idle. Possibilities that spring to mind: a) as above, it's a version / installation issue b) it's a licensing thing and there's no way of using standard HPUX media on a multi-CPU machine without paying HP lots of money (boo!) c) the machine or HPUX is a bit funny in the way it handles multiple CPUs and we need force processes to run on a specific CPU via some command, rather than it being transparently handled by the CPU d) user stupidity (none of us really know much about the machine and nor are we HPUX experts) Option d would probably be preferable - we can always learn :) Option b's obviously the least desirable and would result in us looking at Linux for the machine I think! Anyone worked with these beasts before and know offhand what the problem might be? (we've got HPUX 11 media by the way; but as stated maybe not a version that's truly compatible with a multi-CPU machine) Being able to force stuff to run on a specific CPU from a shell would actually be beneficial, as I have an idea to do a bit of distributed raytracing on the machine for giggles (6 CPUs is good, but 90MHz each IIRC is less so :-) ta Jules From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 28 15:35:11 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <57289.127.0.0.1.1098991287.squirrel@127.0.0.1> References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <57289.127.0.0.1.1098991287.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2004, at 12:21 PM, classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > Why can't I vote for someone I like rather than always > voting against someone I hate? Why cant we have a "None of the above" vote that means something. If "None of the above" wins all parties have to pick new people and a new election is held. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 07:50:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: OT! Re: West meets East In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041028155802.009727a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Well said! This is also my main objection to Kerry. He acts like he > thinks he's a pit bull. All he knows is attack, attack, attack. It's the > ONLY thing that he's done in his entire political career. I don't think he > has a plan for anything except for more attacks. If he was given the office > of president tommorrow I don't think he's have a clue what to do. I'm no > fan of GB but I'd certainly choose him over Kerry. The Democratic party has > shot themselves in the foot again! Yes, unfortunately it's come down to this again. I don't think people in this country realize the peril we're in. Now, 1 year, 2 years, 4 years, 10 years down the road I may be proven wrong, but I see America in decline, politically, economically, and perhaps even militarily. The problem is the blindness with which people are taking their steps. It seems everyone is so busy focusing on the here and now, worshipping golden calfs, falling under the spell of false prophets, and worst of all, forgetting (or not even knowing) the lessons of the past. So where are we at? We've got half the nation throwing their support behind Georgius Caeser, the other half saying "anyone but Bush so Kerry will do" and the OTHER half going asking "what the fuck!?" The writing is on the wall, and it's so plain to see that you either can't read or you're being willfully ignorant. By all means, vote for Bush if you think that's the right choice, but God help you, him, and everyone else. The way I see it, the alternative to voting for him is to just give up altogether, i.e. emmigrate. There are plenty of nice places in the world. I've been to them. I'm just not sure if they'll be far enough away to avoid the toxicity that is America. I've never seen a people so polarized. And I've never seen half of them be so completely blind/stupid/whatever pejorative explains them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 28 15:46:04 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <01b301c4bd2f$24b01a90$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Kelleher" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:26 PM Subject: Re: West meets East > At 02:21 PM 10/28/2004, you wrote: > >That opinion cuts both ways, of course. . . with an election this close > >and with a population so thoroughly divided we can assume an equal number > >of pissed off folks no matter who wins the election. > > Call me crazy (or worse) and throw pies at me (or worse), > but I think this perception that this is a "close" race is wrong. > > I think it's going to be a debacle for Kerry just as it was for McGovern in > 1972. > > http://www.wordiq.com/definition/George_McGovern > > Of course I may be wrong, it happens. > Y'all will know then how to judge what I say in the future. > > But, if it IS a debacle, and you thought it was going to be a "close" race, > you have to ask yourself, "Why didn't I see this coming?" > > I'd say it's because our opinions are malformed due to all the thalidomide > the media is spewing. > I think we're suckers to soak it up uncritically. > But it will be heartening because so many saw through all the BS. > > And if you're wrong about this election -- it's not close, it's a debacle, > then likely your opinions on other things such as Iraq, Afghanistan and N. > Korea need some re-evaluation as well having likely been formed by the same > disinforming media. > > I think this election is like when we see someone on eBay hawking some bit > of old computer hardware as "rare!" and people fall all over themselves > bidding on the thing. Some of say, Hell, I've got 20 of those and walk away. > > Of course, if it IS close, maybe I'll join Sellam and go elsewhere because > how could so many people be fooled. > > Guess I'll go eat worms as the ditty goes. > > Ed K. > > I think if the race is "close" that means the undecided will jump ship and vote for Kerry, since they already know what Bush is like over the last 4 years. Judging by what I see around me and the people posting on this list I find it hard to believe people really are undecided at this late date. What will be interesting is the percentage of eligible votes that does make it to the polls, should be way up this year. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 07:53:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > Call me crazy (or worse) and throw pies at me (or worse), Jackass seems fitting. > And if you're wrong about this election -- it's not close, it's a debacle, > then likely your opinions on other things such as Iraq, Afghanistan and N. > Korea need some re-evaluation as well having likely been formed by the same > disinforming media. It's not about who wins the election!! It's about what this nation, and perhaps this world, is going to look like 10 years from now! I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong, just as you're not going to convince me, but I guess in 10 years time we'll see who's right. > Of course, if it IS close, maybe I'll join Sellam and go elsewhere because > how could so many people be fooled. Oh please, what a bunch of pretentios drivel. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 07:54:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20041028162402.04cfd750@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Here ya go, Sellam! > > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041024&mode=classic > > ;-) > > [[ Altho I must say, I doubt you'll go thru with it! You may be serious > about the time, but when the time is right, the money never is! Believe you > me, I've considered it, too.... :-/ ]] Actually, I was thinking it'd be way cool to throw in with a bunch of like-minded people and buy a cruise ship. You could then create your own portable autonomous nation and just sail the seas going where ever in the world makes sense at any given moment. Who's with me? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 28 15:50:22 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <57289.127.0.0.1.1098991287.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <01be01c4bd2f$be6948a0$0200fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:35 PM Subject: Re: West meets East > > On Oct 28, 2004, at 12:21 PM, classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > > > Why can't I vote for someone I like rather than always > > voting against someone I hate? > > Why cant we have a "None of the above" vote that means > something. If "None of the above" wins all parties have > to pick new people and a new election is held. > > Or better yet vote for who you really like instead of the only 2 choices and make it so a majority is needed to get elected, coalition governments are nice since they tend to weed out the extremes in both parties and concentrate toward the center. I think people with ability would rather be a CEO with nice perks and a better salary while not having their family looked into, people who run for president tend to have a power trip going on. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 07:57:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > On Oct 28, 2004, at 12:21 PM, classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > > > Why can't I vote for someone I like rather than always > > voting against someone I hate? > > Why cant we have a "None of the above" vote that means > something. If "None of the above" wins all parties have > to pick new people and a new election is held. Why can't we kill who ever is elected if we don't like them? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 28 16:03:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1098997411.11633.140.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-10-28 at 05:53 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > It's not about who wins the election!! It's about what this nation, and > perhaps this world, is going to look like 10 years from now! This'll be on topic then. Sort of. :-) We live in scary times, that's for sure :-( From Pres at macro-inc.com Thu Oct 28 17:23:05 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028172139.02c4eb38@192.168.0.1> At 07:57 AM 10/28/2004, you wrote: > > Why cant we have a "None of the above" vote that means > > something. If "None of the above" wins all parties have > > to pick new people and a new election is held. > >Why can't we kill who ever is elected if we don't like them? What's stopping you, pretender? :-) Ed K. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 28 16:21:04 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041028125359.N66059@shell.lmi.net> References: <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <0410280326.AA13080@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <16768.62984.8201.431791@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041028172104.007e4320@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:56 PM 10/28/04 -0700, you wrote: >> Jay> OMG - Michael S. is quoting Michael Moore as a factual source? >> Jay> That's like quoting news stories from the Enquirer. >> Actually, I thought it's more like quoting history from Leni >> Riefenstahl. > >IFF you were able to ignore the political message, >she was a LOT more talented than Moore. Let's face it, she was also a lot more honest. Joe From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 28 16:43:09 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Actually, I was thinking it'd be way cool to throw in with a bunch of > like-minded people and buy a cruise ship. You could then create your own > portable autonomous nation and just sail the seas going where ever in the > world makes sense at any given moment. > > Who's with me? :) www.residensea.com Cheers Ahab From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 28 16:51:57 2004 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028165004.04e7f4b8@pc> At 04:43 PM 10/28/2004, John Lawson wrote: > www.residensea.com Only $1.6 M for a two-bedroom apartment, or $4.1 M for the 1,950 sq. ft. three-bedroom. - John From wacarder at usit.net Thu Oct 28 16:58:14 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East References: Message-ID: <000601c4bd39$39e71e90$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > Actually, I was thinking it'd be way cool to throw in with a bunch of > > like-minded people and buy a cruise ship. You could then create your own > > portable autonomous nation and just sail the seas going where ever in the > > world makes sense at any given moment. > > > > Who's with me? :) > www.residensea.com > Cheers > Ahab If you get a 3 bedroom apartment on the ship for $4,170,000 US Dollars, you can have a room for yourself (and a friend, if you desire), and two rooms for your classic computer stuff. :-) Ashley From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Oct 27 15:54:04 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> References: <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <41800AEC.6070405@theriver.com> >> That opinion cuts both ways, of course. . . with an election this close >> and with a population so thoroughly divided we can assume an equal number >> of pissed off folks no matter who wins the election. As if there were not many in the last Presidential election! > > Call me crazy (or worse) and throw pies at me (or worse), > but I think this perception that this is a "close" race is wrong. You could be right!! > I think it's going to be a debacle for Kerry just as it was for McGovern > in 1972. And it could just as easily go the other way!. One of the things that pollsters hate is uncertainty, and, in an effort to make polls more reliable, they tend to want responses from people who actually, reliably vote, not just register. Herein lies to problem. The polls tend to, credibly, give more weight to people that have previously voted in the last election. presidential or otherwise. If you are polled by one of the numerous survey companies, one of the more pertinent questions, and sometimes the very first one, is: "Did you vote in the last election" Your answer to this one goes a long way to the weight of your response to the survey company. The general accepted perception is that, employed, and middle-class tend to vote more than the unemployed and lower-class that elderly vote more than the young, and that whites vote more than minorities. It is also generally perceived that these are all general characteristics of more republican voters than democrat voters. There are anomolies, of course, There are a lot of wealthy middle-class democrats and black or hispanic republicans. But pollsters have generally NOT been surprised when these general perceptions are followed in polling. What throws a monkey wrench into things is when a group or groups of voters do not follow the general perception of pollsters. This happens when a lot of new voters are registered, when voting groups become active after histrically being nascent, or when an election polarizes groups. It seems that these factors are all hallmarks of thise election. Case in point; Arizona, normally a conservative, mostly republican, state elects a democratic female democratic governor, over a conservative well-supported, state senator. As expected, a study of all the precincts show that everybody voted as expected. Conservative suburban precints showed the normal high turnout, minority inner-city had a small higher than expected turnout but really not enough to turn the elction around. So what happened! A ballot initiative that would have reduced and heavily taxed Indian Gaming and would have allowed racetracks to enjoy the same gaming priveledges as Indian Reservations was put on the ballot. This caused a massive Indian voter registration drive to defeat the measure (which the republican party mistakingly supported) and lead to an overwhelming vote by the hereto unregistered Indian voting population. The verdict is still out obn how this will effect this Presidential election, some Indian voters like Bush and there is no Indian Gaming propostion on the ballot. Wht this voting population will do is anybody's guess as it is a new and untested voting population. Other points: although Al Gore won the election by 500,000 votes, in all the rust-belt states where there is a heavily democratic presence as well as voters, a large percentage of them "voted with their feet" and did not vote, due to Gore's support of NAFTA and other pro-business, anti-union stances. These non-voting voters are not counted as heavily by pollsters, as they are now considered unreliable. New voters by the score. Generally the perception that newly registered voters tend to vote or register democratic. If this perception is true then the huge new-voter registration in this election would tend to favor democrats WITH the caveat that these voters are "unreliable" If these voters are reliable, they are not as heavily weighed or not counted at all by the pollsters, leaving a huge gap between what is polled and what actually transpires at the polls, > > Of course I may be wrong, it happens. > Y'all will know then how to judge what I say in the future. > > But, if it IS a debacle, and you thought it was going to be a "close" race, > you have to ask yourself, "Why didn't I see this coming?" > > I'd say it's because our opinions are malformed due to all the > thalidomide the media is spewing. What the media sees is a result of the polling!! (see above) > I think we're suckers to soak it up uncritically. > But it will be heartening because so many saw through all the BS. One man's BS is another's gospel truth. > And if you're wrong about this election -- it's not close, it's a debacle, > then likely your opinions on other things such as Iraq, Afghanistan and > N. Korea need some re-evaluation as well having likely been formed by > the same disinforming media. Or they could be spo-on or have nothing to do with what the media says or does. > I think this election is like when we see someone on eBay hawking some > bit of old computer hardware as "rare!" and people fall all over > themselves bidding on the thing. Some of say, Hell, I've got 20 of > those and walk away. Many do not sell the twenty items, as they appreciate the intrinsic value as opposed to what they could fetch on ebay. > > Of course, if it IS close, maybe I'll join Sellam and go elsewhere > because how could so many people be fooled. Dubya expressed it so eloquently: There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again. --President George W. Bush, East Literature Magnet School, Nashville, Tennessee, September 17, 2002. > > Guess I'll go eat worms as the ditty goes. Fried with hot sauce is best. Cheers Tom > > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 28 17:04:03 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028165004.04e7f4b8@pc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028165004.04e7f4b8@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, John Foust wrote: > At 04:43 PM 10/28/2004, John Lawson wrote: >> www.residensea.com > > Only $1.6 M for a two-bedroom apartment, or $4.1 M for the 1,950 sq. ft. > three-bedroom. Not much different than Beverly Hills (or Manhattan), save that - when your apartment pitches up, down, sideways, and back-and-forth - no one starts screaming and runs to stand in the doorways. Cheers Dr. Richard (Rick) Richter From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Oct 28 17:04:38 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: new find: Solbourne 600 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041027173750.0094be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041027173750.0094be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Hi, Solbourne = Sun Microsystems SunOS compatible machines, some faster than Sun's. I would pick it up, who knows, you'll probably get some SMD controllers and disks etc. Good stuff IMHO. But if you don't you should notify this guy I'm sure he'll be interested : http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~dowdy/Solbourne/ Stephane On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 17:37:50 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > I found one of these today but didn't pick it up. Should I have? I don't > know anything about these, anybody care to enlighten me? > > Joe > -- Stephane Paris, France. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 28 17:12:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was reading that 1961 BRL survey, and found the user reports > of the IBM 701 fascinating. They apparently had an average > uptime of about 2-4 hours. That doesn't seem like much by > today's standards, but then how often does Windows crash on you? One of the often told stories of the early days of computers is that of the completely unreasonable downtime, due to tube failure. There is even a myth (pretty much disproved) about AN/FSQ-7 SAGE techs wearing roller skates to replace the constantly dying tubes. Basically, tube computers were not that bad, all of the time. The use of "average" is being distorted here. When a 701 or 650 or whatever was placed into service, you could expect tubes to die out (rarely from "burnout" - loss of emission was the main culprit) at an alarming rate. One every two hours is probably not unreasonable, as the marginal tubes in their infancy are weeded out. Once these tubes were gone - I have heard this could be six months - tube computers were quite reliable. Often whn an old IBM or Burroughs module is unearthed, a quick look at the datecodes on the tubes will reveal that most are probably originals to the machine. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From lists at microvax.org Thu Oct 28 17:46:57 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: DEC qbus Q/CD Message-ID: <418176E1.1030404@microvax.org> Hello again! Does anyone have a copy of the wirewrap diagram for a Q22/CD backplane? I'm looking to wrap my own backplane from an old 4-slot Q18-serpentine chassis I have. cheers alex/melt From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Oct 28 18:24:22 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: wtd: amiga bits In-Reply-To: <003d01c4b488$4640a490$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> References: <003d01c4b488$4640a490$080f4652@office.zen.co.uk> Message-ID: <2700.65.123.179.147.1099005862.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> I have toaster cards and A2065's. Gary Hildebrand ghldbrd@ccp.com > Hello everyone, > > Can someone help me out - I need a Zorro ethernet card for my 2000, or > maybe something like a golden gate board to let me use ISA cards. I'd also > like to get hold of a video toaster 2000 setup, any chance of a US folks > helping out? > > Cheerio > > Stu > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 28 19:08:49 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:19 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041029000849.56114.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> I believe tht the reliability problem with the 701 was not hard tube failures, but transient errors in the Williams tube memories. This problem was corrected when IBM transitioned to core memory. --Bill --- William Donzelli wrote: > > I was reading that 1961 BRL survey, and found the > user reports > > of the IBM 701 fascinating. They apparently had an > average > > uptime of about 2-4 hours. That doesn't seem like > much by > > today's standards, but then how often does Windows > crash on you? > > One of the often told stories of the early days of > computers is that of > the completely unreasonable downtime, due to tube > failure. There is even a > myth (pretty much disproved) about AN/FSQ-7 SAGE > techs wearing roller > skates to replace the constantly dying tubes. > > Basically, tube computers were not that bad, all of > the time. The use of > "average" is being distorted here. When a 701 or 650 > or whatever was > placed into service, you could expect tubes to die > out (rarely from > "burnout" - loss of emission was the main culprit) > at an alarming > rate. One every two hours is probably not > unreasonable, as the marginal > tubes in their infancy are weeded out. Once these > tubes were gone - I have > heard this could be six months - tube computers were > quite reliable. Often > whn an old IBM or Burroughs module is unearthed, a > quick look at the > datecodes on the tubes will reveal that most are > probably originals to the > machine. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 28 19:40:37 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Polymorphic 8824 Message-ID: <41819185.5447366D@rain.org> In cleaning out a place to put the Cromemco, I ran across the Polymorphic stuff again. One of the chassis is labeled 8824, but so far, I haven't found any information about it. Anyone here at least have heard of it? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 28 20:24:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: need help with MicroLink STD bus card Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041028212440.009585f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have a MicroLink catalog or docs for any of their cards? I picked up two cards that I'm trying to identify. The only thing printed on that that might be a model number is "97134". There are no LSI ICs to give a hint of its function, only a bunch of standard SSI TTL ICs. It has two 34 position ribbon cable headers on the end of the cards. Joe From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Oct 28 20:34:23 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 References: <200410281700.i9SH0Jsc030715@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000a01c4bd57$6bca7010$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> > From: David Forbes > > I was reading that 1961 BRL survey, and found the user reports > of the IBM 701 fascinating. They apparently had an average > uptime of about 2-4 hours. In 1976 I worked with a guy who maintained a tube computer when he was going to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. He said that everyday the ran a diagnostic at low voltage then at high voltage. This would point out weak tubes. They would replace the tubes and the machine was good for another day. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Oct 28 20:47:43 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 In-Reply-To: <20041029000849.56114.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I believe tht the reliability problem with the 701 > was not hard tube failures, but transient errors > in the Williams tube memories. This problem was > corrected when IBM transitioned to core memory. Yes, you are correct - Williams Tube sucked. Still, the myth of non-reliability of tube machines is still around. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 28 20:46:24 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Liquidation sale: recent stuff Message-ID: <200410290201.WAA17301@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Someone I know online is part of something that's going out of business, or something similar, and is liquidating a bunch of stuff. Most of the computer stuff is more recent than our cutoff (much less any of the recently-proposed alternative cutoffs :), but some may be old enough, it includes a bunch of non-computer office stuff, and at liquidation prices some of you may want something more recent - heretical though it may seem to some of you, I'm sure some (others) of you, like me, don't confine your computer activities to strictly-on-topic machines. My friend says "...get the word out. Otherwise, this stuff is just gonna go to a liquidator or something. We [...] would rather see it go to someone who'll use it than to a company that'll just sell it off.". It's all pickup-only stuff in California (Chatsworth, 91311). http://www.digitaltrancefurs.com/p2k is a what-they-have webpage. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Oct 28 21:14:26 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Need 20Mb Bernoulli disks Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041028221426.0094cb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anybody have any of the old "Beta 20" 5 1/4" 20Mb Bernoulli disks that they're willing to part with? I picked up a Bering HP-IB drive that I'd like to test. Joe From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Oct 28 21:16:09 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Liquidation sale: recent stuff In-Reply-To: <200410290201.WAA17301@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200410290201.WAA17301@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041028191539.04d795b0@mail.zipcon.net> At 06:46 PM 10/28/2004, you wrote: >It's all pickup-only stuff in California (Chatsworth, 91311). >http://www.digitaltrancefurs.com/p2k is a what-they-have webpage. that sucks, I could REALLY use the G3 beige tower.... but i am not in cali. From cb at mythtech.net Thu Oct 28 21:34:51 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Liquidation sale: recent stuff Message-ID: >>It's all pickup-only stuff in California (Chatsworth, 91311). >>http://www.digitaltrancefurs.com/p2k is a what-they-have webpage. > >that sucks, I could REALLY use the G3 beige tower.... but i am not in cali. Take a look at the LEM Swap list (www.lowendmac.com look for the email lists). I see Rev A beige G3's going for around $50 all the time. -chris From marvin at rain.org Thu Oct 28 22:00:52 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: VCF stuff for sale Message-ID: <4181B264.333E3CF3@rain.org> With VCF comming up in about 8 days, I am planning on bringing a bunch of stuff up there to get rid, er, sell :). In that vein, is there anything special those of you who will be attending are looking for? My plan is to reduce my collection to things that are primarily in the 70's to very early 80's, and I will mostly concentrate on CP/M and S-100 systems. Things I have that are not in my area of interest or expertise include: SparcStatation2 w/ external CD-ROM, Color Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, Working Wang computer (don't remember model), about 10"w x 24"h x 30"d., untested Xerox computer, Model 8???, w/ monitor/keyboard. About the same size as the Wang, untested Phillips computer, about 24"w x 24"h x 30"d w/ 8" drive(s), untested Make a reasonable offer, but I won't be bringing the above stuff unless someone wants it! As usual, I'll post a link to the list of stuff that I'll be bringing up. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Oct 28 14:52:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Need 20Mb Bernoulli disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041028221426.0094cb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Does anybody have any of the old "Beta 20" 5 1/4" 20Mb Bernoulli disks > that they're willing to part with? I picked up a Bering HP-IB drive that > I'd like to test. Hey Joe! Are you referring to the big black carts that are longer than they are wide? I know I've got some somewhere but I lost track of them. Is the Bering drive a compatible or re-badged drive? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Oct 28 23:01:03 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: [GreenKeys] Model 20 on ebaY (fwd) Message-ID: Upstate NY very rare TTY rescue/help.... anyone could jump in? If so, contact Don directly - he's a Certified Good Guy.. Cheers John ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 22:50:19 -0500 From: Don Robert House To: greenkeys@mailman.qth.net Subject: [GreenKeys] Model 20 on ebaY I would really love to have this Model 20 for our museum. Is there anyone out there near Buffalo, NY that could assist with the packing of the machine if I were to win the machine? Thanks for any assistance, Don Founder and Curator NADCOMM -- --------------------------------------------------- Don R. House 4716 Patty Lane, Ringwood, IL 60072 Tel: 815-653-0683 FAX: 815-653-0684 ***************************************** North American Data Communications Dept. of CMA URL: http://www.nadcomm.org Computer Museum of America (CMA) URL: http://www.computer-museum.org _______________________________________________ GreenKeys mailing list GreenKeys@mailman.qth.net http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Oct 28 23:09:09 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Wrote some useful tools for PostScript Message-ID: <0410290409.AA15455@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hi folks, In case anyone is interested, I have just written and released some useful tools for PostScript lovers. These are: t1free - A toolkit for working with Type 1 fonts antidistiller - A special for those who (like me) love PS and hate PDF You can find both on my anonymous FTP server ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG in the directory /pub/PostScript . Enjoy! (Hopefully this isn't too far off-topic: after all, Level 1 PostScript is on-topic even by the stricter 20 y rule.) MS From aek at spies.com Thu Oct 28 23:34:17 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: VCF stuff for sale Message-ID: <20041029043417.EBD0340B9@spies.com> > Xerox computer, Model 8??? -- It was an 860. From fernande at internet1.net Fri Oct 29 00:15:50 2004 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: OT: West meets East In-Reply-To: <20041028123112.C66059@shell.lmi.net> References: <009501c4bc9f$44494150$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.1.2.0.2.20041028083852.04a537e8@pc> <20041028123112.C66059@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4181D206.4030702@internet1.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > The right wing says that the press is left wing. > The left wing says that the press is right wing. I have never heard anybody say that the majority of the news media is right wing, and I work in a Union Shop! > > People can SEE that the media is lousy, but they can't > really pin down WHAT they hate about it, so they > associate it with the opposing political party. It's a business, and the news companies are being run like the truth doesn't count, or like they're selling a car, or Nike shoes. Furthermore, they'll make news out of nothing, and hammer it to death. That's what I hate about news. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From sloboyko at yahoo.com Fri Oct 29 00:41:19 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Subject: Big Iron available - Data General Eclipse - plus lots more Message-ID: <20041029054119.2083.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Erik Klein wrote: >There were also a good number of vintage terminals >stacked about. >Several >ADM3as in both blue and beige in various states of >decay. Most looked >serviceable with a couple having a bit of screen >rot. The couple I >turned >on worked. None had the switch covers. These are very easy to restore and not expensive either. The circuitry is all TTL (but there's a lot of it!); the manuals for operation and service are on the Internet; I restored two and got new CRT's for them (around $40 each shipped, as I recall, in black and white, natch). I really hate fooling around with CRTs but it was fairly easy. They are also very small, considering when they were built. One of mine didn't have the lower case option and I made one out of a 2716 and a little adapter board. It is possible to put in a metal plate or recreate the LSI logo on the switch cover (I did both). If I had room, I'd get a few more; it would be a shame to see these get crushed. They are the quintessential 70's generic terminal, are a perfect match to 70's pioneering home computers, and they have a certain Eames era look. Did I mention that I like them? ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 29 17:58:05 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: ClassicCmp.org Down? Message-ID: <4182CAFD.7F236C38@rain.org> Is http://www.classiccmp.org/ down? I've been trying to log into the web site since last night, and can't connect. I seem to recall that there was a problem with the HD, but I don't recall the actual server being down. BTW, being on digest mode, I won't see any responses unless I log into the site, get an email, or wait until the digest gets processed and sent out. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Oct 29 12:51:32 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Heath EC-1 on eBay Message-ID: I'll hold off bidding on this in case someone else wants it more than me: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5134822428&rd=1 Starting bid is a stimulating $2,050.00. But you Instant Gratification types can take this gem home for a measly $3K - Buy It Now and save yourself the stress of a damn auction!! Let's see if it stays this way, or if somebody hits the seller with a clue-stick. Cheers Granino Vanevar Bush-Korn From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Oct 29 18:34:50 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Wilson SX 530 SMD TTL Based Disk Drive Exerciser Tester (ebay) Message-ID: Wilson SX 530 SMD TTL Based Disk Drive Exerciser Tester http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=45045&item=3849289730 Stephane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Oct 29 19:21:38 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: VCF stuff for sale Message-ID: <200410300021.RAA18391@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Marvin If you come across one of the small serial cards, I'm looking for one for my Poly88. It doesn't need parts, just the board would be great. Have you been able to get a Poly 88xx system up and running yet? If not, you should still bring a controller card, cables and drives for the 8 inch setup. I think I have the 5-1/4" setup covered. I'll blow some ROMs with the updates to handle the 8 inch drives. I'll be heading out soon and won't be on the net again until Monday. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >With VCF comming up in about 8 days, I am planning on bringing a bunch >of stuff up there to get rid, er, sell :). In that vein, is there >anything special those of you who will be attending are looking for? My >plan is to reduce my collection to things that are primarily in the 70's >to very early 80's, and I will mostly concentrate on CP/M and S-100 >systems. > >Things I have that are not in my area of interest or expertise include: > >SparcStatation2 w/ external CD-ROM, Color Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, >Working >Wang computer (don't remember model), about 10"w x 24"h x 30"d., >untested >Xerox computer, Model 8???, w/ monitor/keyboard. About the same size as >the Wang, untested >Phillips computer, about 24"w x 24"h x 30"d w/ 8" drive(s), untested > >Make a reasonable offer, but I won't be bringing the above stuff unless >someone wants it! > >As usual, I'll post a link to the list of stuff that I'll be bringing >up. > From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 29 04:39:19 2004 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (core@pdp-8.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> References: <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthl ink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I have a white MDS 800 System. It was sold in Germany by Siemens and they relabelled it to SME 800 ("Siemens Microcomputer Entwicklungssystem"). It has an external 8"-double drive and a dumb terminal. Inside it is all Intel. The only thing they changed internal: The glued "Siemens"-labels over the original Intel-logos on the PCBs. You can see it: http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/sme800 We are running ISIS-II inclusive KERMIT on it. One time Christian Corti succeeded to boot a CP/M 2.?. But in the meantime this disk was damaged. I found a very old CP/M source, dated "11/21/75" in the net, written in PL/M and was able to translate it with the original PL/M-compiler written in FORTRAN (dated: JAN 1975) on our SUN 4/260. What is needed: To adapt the original BIOS for single density disks to the double density drives on our system and to make bootable floppies. Cheers Klemens On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I was > working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM series > emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that said Siemens > on the outside. > > >> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all >> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 >> feet from me as I type.) >> >> Joe > -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Fri Oct 29 09:07:33 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: OT: Help ID old IBM electric typewriter Message-ID: <20041029140733.64279.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> Found this clearing out storage. Tried to ID via google, not able to conclusively do so. Is it a Model C? Looks at least a little like one. Is it worth anything or should I scrap it? Seems too heavy to ship it reasonably. Thanks if you have any ideas. Pics here: http://boston.craigslist.org/wan/47147260.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Oct 29 04:09:11 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: BYTEK 135 Multiprogrammer Message-ID: <200410290909.i9T99Bp3027519@queen.cs.drexel.edu> I have the 135-U/A model, but no manual so I am a bit lost as to how it can be used. Does anybody have any information on how to use this multiprogrammer? Thanks **vp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 29 03:01:48 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC qbus Q/CD In-Reply-To: meltie lists "DEC qbus Q/CD" (Oct 28, 23:46) References: <418176E1.1030404@microvax.org> Message-ID: <10410290901.ZM17807@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 28 2004, 23:46, meltie lists wrote: > Hello again! > > Does anyone have a copy of the wirewrap diagram for a Q22/CD backplane? > I'm looking to wrap my own backplane from an old 4-slot Q18-serpentine > chassis I have. QBus backplanes are normally soldered, with short pins, not wirewrap. I don't know if that's true for H9270, though (which I assume is what you have). There's a diagram with the info you need for Qbus in most QBus processor handbooks, in the chapter on the bus. The CD interconnect is described in the chapters on backplanes in the Microcomputer Interfaces handbook. If that won't do, most of the info is on my QBusConns.ps diagram at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/ . In essence, almost all the signals on A and B are bussed all the way down, pin for pin, except the following: SSPARE[1238]: AE1, AF1, AH1, BH1 are normally not bussed MSPARE[AB]: AK1 is connected to AL1 at each slot, but not bussed; ditto BK1+BL1 SSPARE[4567]: BDAL18-21 on Q22, are bussed on Q22 backplanes PSPARE[12]: AU1 and BU1 need not be bussed - nothing should use them BIAK[IO]: BIAKI (AM2) on each slot is connected only to BIAKO (AN2) on the slot below BDMG[IO]: BDMGO (AS2) on each slot is connected only to BDMGI (AR) on the slot below (I'm not absolutely certain about the last, but I'm fairly sure that's right.) On C and D, pretty much everything on C2 and D2 of each slot is connected to the corresponding pin on C1 and D1 of the slot below, except: CA1 on each slot connects to CC1 on the next slot down CT2 on each slot connects to DT2 on the next slot down CA2 and DA2 are bussed to +5V CC2, CD2, CT1, and DT1 are all ground On the top slot only, there's a jumper between CK1 and CL1, and another between DK1 and DL1. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 29 14:01:34 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Microsoft Windows vs. IBM 701 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > I was reading that 1961 BRL survey, and found the user reports > > of the IBM 701 fascinating. They apparently had an average > > uptime of about 2-4 hours. That doesn't seem like much by > > today's standards, but then how often does Windows crash on you? > > One of the often told stories of the early days of computers is that of > the completely unreasonable downtime, due to tube failure. There is even a > myth (pretty much disproved) about AN/FSQ-7 SAGE techs wearing roller > skates to replace the constantly dying tubes. > > Basically, tube computers were not that bad, all of the time. o Oh neither David nor I take it that way; "downtime" likely has systemic implications. Peripheral equipment, problems (hardware or otherwise) with newfangled tape drives, who knows. More, it was a comment on user perception of reliability, and an obvious and gratuitous jab at M$ :-) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 29 13:49:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Need 20Mb Bernoulli disks In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20041028221426.0094cb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041029144937.0089b6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:52 PM 10/28/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> Does anybody have any of the old "Beta 20" 5 1/4" 20Mb Bernoulli disks >> that they're willing to part with? I picked up a Bering HP-IB drive that >> I'd like to test. > >Hey Joe! > >Are you referring to the big black carts that are longer than they are >wide? I think so but I'm not sure. But not the big 8" wide cartridges. There are about 5 1/4" wide. Actually also I need a couple of 20 Mb 8" cartridges for another older Bering drive. > I know I've got some somewhere but I lost track of them. The story of my life! > >Is the Bering drive a compatible or re-badged drive? The complete drive unit is made by Bering but it uses to Bernoulli drives. It has a HP-IB interface and was sold for use with the HP computers. IEM made similar drives. I have some of both. Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 29 13:37:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <000601c4bd39$39e71e90$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041029143737.00a9a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:58 PM 10/28/04 -0400, you wrote: >> > Actually, I was thinking it'd be way cool to throw in with a bunch of >> > like-minded people and buy a cruise ship. You could then create your >own >> > portable autonomous nation and just sail the seas going where ever in >the >> > world makes sense at any given moment. >> > >> > Who's with me? :) That's a great idea but finding any surplus at sea would be sort of tough! Joe From tomj at wps.com Fri Oct 29 13:57:33 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: West meets East In-Reply-To: <16769.16616.633090.346464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028134149.02bc72c0@192.168.0.1> <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <16769.16616.633090.346464@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Can we drop this unbelievably neanderthal "politics" discussion? I'm increasingly embarrassed to be American. Not simply because of any particular idea, view, or action (though there's enough of those), but because the level of discourse is mean, mainly ad hominem and mostly stupid and agressively uninformed. It sounds like an argument over who's "cooler", in a high-school cafeteria. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Oct 29 13:43:38 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Why We need to vote.... was Re: West meets East In-Reply-To: <41800AEC.6070405@theriver.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041029144338.00a9acc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Now here's a frightening thought! > >My Nightmare ... Nov. 3, 2004 > >John Kerry - President >John Edwards - Vice-President >Jane Fonda - Secretary of Defense >Michael Moore - Foreign Secretary >Whoopi Goldberg - Secretary of Interior >&& Moral Advisor to the White House >& Homeland Security >Tom Daschle - Senate Majority Leader >& No. 1 Advisor to the White House >Hillary Clinton - No. 1 Queen of Everything > >Don't laugh, it could happen unless you get out there and vote!!!!!! From aek at spies.com Fri Oct 29 23:25:01 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: OT: Help ID old IBM electric typewriter Message-ID: <20041030042501.CE87A3CC1@spies.com> It is a Model C http://www.etypewriters.com/c-thumb.htm From david at dynamicconcepts.us Wed Oct 27 18:13:41 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Paging Ashley Carder.... Message-ID: Ashley, If you are around [I sent you a few e-mails no response]. Please give me a ring. I have a possible rescure/purchase that you may be able to help me on.... David Corbin From root at huey.classiccmp.org Thu Oct 28 10:31:00 2004 From: root at huey.classiccmp.org (Charlie Root) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem In-Reply-To: <145cecdd041028061825b9b3ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200410281531.i9SFV0pk030244@huey.classiccmp.org> I would be very interested in running Edusystem-20 on my 8e. I also have a good paper tape reader/punch combo hooked up to my pc and would be happy to make copies of this tape. Are full installation and user guides for Edusystem-20 around? Jay West From jdarren at ala.net Thu Oct 28 16:16:16 2004 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: 386/25 Message-ID: <000801c4bd33$5cc2ab60$f8c1939b@ruckdos0rxd41> All, I'm looking for a 386/25MHz CPU with motherboard containing at least 5 ISA slots. Does anyone have such for sale or know of a source? Thanks, Darren Peterson From mbaldwin262 at sprintpcs.com Thu Oct 28 16:51:00 2004 From: mbaldwin262 at sprintpcs.com (Mike Baldwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Printer "Interface" Cables Message-ID: <3485155.1099000260751.JavaMail.root@dedicated170-bos> Hello all, Can anyone tell me the difference between the two different TRS-80 Model 1 Printer Interface Cables? These are the cables used to connect a Line Printer directly to the expansion bus on a Model 1 without using the Expansion Interface. They are ribbon cables with a "little black box" midstream containing the printer port circuitry. The 26-1411 was originally for the LP1 and the 26-1416 was for the LP2. Now, I know that these also worked on subsequent Line Printers, and my understanding was that the 26-1411 worked on most while the 1416 only worked on a few (!) What exactly is the difference? Does anyone know? I'm coming into possesion of a LP3, but I only have a 26-1416 cable.... I don't know if this will work (I'm very confused!) Thanks in advance, Mike -------------------- This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. Get a free PCS Mail account! Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. From klemens.krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 29 11:29:15 2004 From: klemens.krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <41826FDB.2070702@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> I have a white MDS 800 System. It was sold in Germany by Siemens and they relabelled it to SME 800 ("Siemens Microcomputer Entwicklungssystem"). It has an external 8"-double drive and a dumb terminal. Inside it is all Intel. The only thing they changed internal: The glued "Siemens"-labels over the original Intel-logos on the PCBs. You can see it: http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/sme800 We are running ISIS-II inclusive KERMIT on it. One time Christian Corti succeeded to boot a CP/M 2.?. But in the meantime this disk was damaged. I found a very old CP/M source, dated "11/21/75" in the net, written in PL/M and was able to translate it with the original PL/M-compiler written in FORTRAN (dated: JAN 1975) on our SUN 4/260. What is needed: To adapt the original BIOS for single density disks to the double density drives on our system and to make bootable floppies. Cheers Klemens On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I was working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM series emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that said Siemens on the outside. > > >> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all >> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 >> feet from me as I type.) >> >> Joe > > -- ---------------------------------------------- Klemens Krause Universitaet Stuttgart / Inst. f. Softwaretechnologie Universitaetsstr. 38 / 70569 Stuttgart Tel.: 0711/7816 341 From mbg at TheWorld.com Sat Oct 30 01:16:30 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <200410300616.CAA80469@shell.TheWorld.com> >I feel a bit silly, but it was late last night is my excuse. >"DECpc 320P" in Google gave a link to floppy images on a COMPAQ site. >I will try them this evening, but it is good to know that the DECpc >"knows" a limited number of hard disks. If I can 'upgrade' to some >300 Mb of the 420 Mb capacity it is still better than the 40 Mb that >I have available at this point. Years ago, I found out what I thought to be sufficient info to upgrade my 320P from the 40mb drive it had, to a 120mb I had been able to obtain... apparently type 46 and type 47 in the BIOS are user definable. And I guess I didn't have all the info, or I touched the wrong area because I essentially 'bricked' my 320p. It no longer boots. If you do find out how to do it reliably, I'd be interested in trying to fix it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 30 03:47:23 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: teco macros for teco=emacs? Message-ID: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> This message really needs to go to the "rsts mailing group" but I haven't found such a group yet... :^) so I am calling again on the Teco wizards in the two groups mentioned above. Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? teco/vt is a bunch of teco macros..... Could one setup teco/em ? a bunch of teco macros that emulate some simple useful subset of emacs? From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 30 06:14:13 2004 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: teco macros for teco=emacs? In-Reply-To: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 01:47:23 -0700, Ron Hudson wrote: ... > Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? Emacs = Editing MACroS, and was fully written in TECO, at least for ITS or TWEENEX. Sources available ther : http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/index.html -- Stephane Paris, France. From cbajpai at comcast.net Sat Oct 30 08:47:20 2004 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Horrifying picture - mainframe graveyard Message-ID: <000201c4be86$fa381110$707ba8c0@xpdesk> I saw this very cool front panel for a mainframe..but was horrified to see the picture below! Breaks my heart. -Chandra http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &category=1247&item=5134567267&rd=1 From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 30 09:06:56 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Horrifying picture - mainframe graveyard In-Reply-To: <000201c4be86$fa381110$707ba8c0@xpdesk> Message-ID: > I saw this very cool front panel for a mainframe..but was horrified to > see the picture below! Yes, but me thinks those racks are IBM 3380s, not Univacs. Still, it is a heartbreaker. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 30 09:20:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041030102052.0089e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's interesting. I've never even heard of a white MDS-800 before. Was it painted white originally or was it painted over an orginal blue one? I think you need a lot more than rewriting the BIOS to handle DD disks. Intels DD controller has a 3000 series bit-slice CPU and some other odd circuitry to handle DD. Joe At 11:39 AM 10/29/04 +0200, you wrote: >I have a white MDS 800 System. It was sold in Germany by Siemens and they >relabelled it to SME 800 ("Siemens Microcomputer Entwicklungssystem"). >It has an external 8"-double drive and a dumb terminal. Inside it is all >Intel. The only thing they changed internal: The glued "Siemens"-labels >over the original Intel-logos on the PCBs. > >You can see it: > http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/sme800 > >We are running ISIS-II inclusive KERMIT on it. One time Christian Corti >succeeded to boot a CP/M 2.?. But in the meantime this disk was damaged. >I found a very old CP/M source, dated "11/21/75" in the net, written in >PL/M and was able to translate it with the original PL/M-compiler >written in FORTRAN (dated: JAN 1975) on our SUN 4/260. >What is needed: To adapt the original BIOS for single density disks to >the double density drives on our system and to make bootable floppies. > >Cheers > Klemens > > >On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I was >> working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM series >> emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that said Siemens >> on the outside. >> >> >>> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all >>> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 >>> feet from me as I type.) >>> >>> Joe >> > >-- > >klemens krause >Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. >http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > > From thompson at new.rr.com Sat Oct 30 09:35:09 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Horrifying picture - mainframe graveyard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I saw this very cool front panel for a mainframe..but was horrified to > > see the picture below! > > Yes, but me thinks those racks are IBM 3380s, not Univacs. Still, it is a > heartbreaker. > There is a computer's halloween nightmare of pictures on the seller's personal site: http://gra.midco.net/poppke/ Lots of cool core memory pron. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Oct 30 09:49:04 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: What is this Data IO Thingie? In-Reply-To: <20041027.213222.1260.28.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20041027.213222.1260.28.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200410300749040214.E7EE641D@192.168.42.129> Hi, Jeff, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 27-Oct-04 at 21:32 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: >Photo at: > >http://home.earthlink.net/~pkaneko/data_io_stuff.jpg > >Andybody need/want this? > >The socket adaptors are: > >715-1039 >715-1028-1 >715-1035-2 That be a programming pack and adapters for the old System-19 universal programmer. Data I/O stopped making those in the early 80's. They were replaced with models 29A and 29B. The Unisite was introduced in the late 80's as a replacement for the entire 19/29 family. The Unisite's base design has stood the Test of Time, and remains in production (as the Unisite-XPi) to this day. Hope that helps. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From thompson at new.rr.com Sat Oct 30 09:49:51 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Why We need to vote.... was Re: West meets East In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041029144338.00a9acc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> <417FD785.7040302@theriver.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20041028153648.02cb4a60@192.168.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20041029144338.00a9acc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Now here's a frightening thought! > Please spare us. From dmabry at mich.com Sat Oct 30 10:07:08 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041030102052.0089e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041030102052.0089e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4183AE1C.8020206@mich.com> Yeah, that white MDS-800 is the first I've seen as well. Very cool, I think. As for the BIOS in CP/M, it is actually not much different between the SD and the DD controller boardset. They take the exact same command set, as I remember. The only real difference is the range of sector numbers, as there are merely more sectors on the DD diskettes. The sectors themselves are the same size. They used different I/O ranges for the control ports, but that was about it. The original DRI CP/M-80, right out of the box from Digital Research, would boot on an MDS-800 with the SD controller boards. That is the way an OEM would get it and they would rewrite the BIOS for their hardware. Kildall wrote the original CP/M for that exact system, the MDS-800 with Single Density controllers (the SBC-201). I did a lot of rewriting on my version of the BIOS in order to handle the internal SD drive on a Series II as a fifth drive (the first four were the ones that the SBC-202 DD controller could handle). The CP/M that I bought from Intel supported having BOTH the SD and the DD controllers in the system at the same time, but Intel never supported CP/M and the internal drive on the Series II. Dave Joe R. wrote: > That's interesting. I've never even heard of a white MDS-800 before. Was > it painted white originally or was it painted over an orginal blue one? > > I think you need a lot more than rewriting the BIOS to handle DD disks. > Intels DD controller has a 3000 series bit-slice CPU and some other odd > circuitry to handle DD. > > Joe > > > At 11:39 AM 10/29/04 +0200, you wrote: > >>I have a white MDS 800 System. It was sold in Germany by Siemens and they >>relabelled it to SME 800 ("Siemens Microcomputer Entwicklungssystem"). >>It has an external 8"-double drive and a dumb terminal. Inside it is all >>Intel. The only thing they changed internal: The glued "Siemens"-labels >>over the original Intel-logos on the PCBs. >> >>You can see it: >> http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/sme800 >> >>We are running ISIS-II inclusive KERMIT on it. One time Christian Corti >>succeeded to boot a CP/M 2.?. But in the meantime this disk was damaged. >>I found a very old CP/M source, dated "11/21/75" in the net, written in >>PL/M and was able to translate it with the original PL/M-compiler >>written in FORTRAN (dated: JAN 1975) on our SUN 4/260. >>What is needed: To adapt the original BIOS for single density disks to >>the double density drives on our system and to make bootable floppies. >> >>Cheers >> Klemens >> >> >>On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >> >>>I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I was >>>working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM series >>>emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that said > > Siemens > >>>on the outside. >>> >>> >>> >>>> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen all >>>>have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting about 3 >>>>feet from me as I type.) >>>> >>>> Joe >>> >>-- >> >>klemens krause >>Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. >>http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de >> >> > > From GOOI at oce.nl Sat Oct 30 10:33:55 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: access to BIOS of DECpc Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A01113375@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Megan, from the mails I've got it is clear that the DECpc 320p supports just a few hard disk types and these are "hard-coded" in the BIOS. Worse: even the utility to access the BIOS does not support any change of the few known hard disk types. A few days ago was a good explanation of how a Disk Manager works, and that's what I did. You need a floppy to boot (MS)DOS and the OnTrack Disk Manager of the hard disk manufacturer or the OnTrack version that accepts any brand. The first one for a specific disk manufacturer can be found on various sites, the latter one must be bought. Step 1. install the new hard disk (*any* storage size, as long as the disk fits physically :-) Step 2. have an *empty* floppy available. Skip if you're always lucky... Step 3. boot to DOS from the boot floppy. Step 4. start Disk Manager (DM.EXE) from the OnTrack floppy. DM detects the disk geometry and presents something else to the BIOS so that the BIOS can work with the disk. Without OnTrack the BIOS does not know how to read the disk, so better make a bootable copy on the floppy mentioned in step 2 when OnTrack asks if you'd like to do that! - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: 30-10-2004 8:16 Subject: RE: access to BIOS of DECpc >I feel a bit silly, but it was late last night is my excuse. >"DECpc 320P" in Google gave a link to floppy images on a COMPAQ site. >I will try them this evening, but it is good to know that the DECpc >"knows" a limited number of hard disks. If I can 'upgrade' to some >300 Mb of the 420 Mb capacity it is still better than the 40 Mb that >I have available at this point. Years ago, I found out what I thought to be sufficient info to upgrade my 320P from the 40mb drive it had, to a 120mb I had been able to obtain... apparently type 46 and type 47 in the BIOS are user definable. And I guess I didn't have all the info, or I touched the wrong area because I essentially 'bricked' my 320p. It no longer boots. If you do find out how to do it reliably, I'd be interested in trying to fix it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Oct 30 10:48:08 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <13741335.1099151288812.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I thought that the SD controller board set was also bit slice (the series II internal was of course 8271 based). They handled the same comands at a different I/O location. The only format difference between SD and DD was the DD was proprietary of course and had 52 sectors instead of 26. That made the OS software easy to handle either density rather than creating blocking schemes that CP/M did which would require more software handling. Intel kept ISIS low in memory and had a program load address that did not let you make the OS any bigger than when ISIS first came out. The advantage was that as long as you had 32K of memmory you could run any Intel software and putting 30K more of memory in the system was immediately available (unlike cp/m). The floppy interface for the bit slice was pretty well abstracted in that the cpu wrote commands to I/O ports and the data off disk was dma'd to and from memory. You told it what to do, where to put it, and how much to data. The cpu didn't have to do anything else except wait for completion of the operation. -----Original Message----- From: "Joe R." Sent: Oct 30, 2004 10:20 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: new find: an Intel MDS 800 That's interesting. I've never even heard of a white MDS-800 before. Was it painted white originally or was it painted over an orginal blue one? I think you need a lot more than rewriting the BIOS to handle DD disks. Intels DD controller has a 3000 series bit-slice CPU and some other odd circuitry to handle DD. Joe From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Oct 30 10:53:39 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 Message-ID: <30083767.1099151619429.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I better be more specific about this before I get corrected for generalizing... you created a block of memory called an IOPB and told the controller where it was. The controller would go out to memory and get the command, etc. The cpu could either "poll" the controller for status or set up and respond to an interrupt that signified completion of the command. The floppy interface for the bit slice was pretty well abstracted in that the cpu wrote commands to I/O ports and the data off disk was dma'd to and from memory. You told it what to do, where to put it, and how much to data. The cpu didn't have to do anything else except wait for completion of the operation. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 03:20:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: OT: Help ID old IBM electric typewriter In-Reply-To: <20041029140733.64279.qmail@web21528.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > Found this clearing out storage. > > Tried to ID via google, not able to conclusively do so. Is it a Model C? Looks > at least a little like one. Is it worth anything or should I scrap it? Seems > too heavy to ship it reasonably. > > Thanks if you have any ideas. > > Pics here: http://boston.craigslist.org/wan/47147260.html It's definitely a Model C. See photos here: http://www.etypewriters.com/history.htm I'd definitely take it if it was a Model B as that was what was used on the PDP-1 for a console typewriter (modified of course). The 'C' is a different styling than the B. Worth keeping? To someone I'm sure. Was it ever used as the console for any computers? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 03:22:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:20 2005 Subject: Need 20Mb Bernoulli disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041029144937.0089b6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I think so but I'm not sure. But not the big 8" wide cartridges. There > are about 5 1/4" wide. Actually also I need a couple of 20 Mb 8" > cartridges for another older Bering drive. Duh. The ones I had in mind were the 8". The only 5.25" carthridge I have is the head cleaner. As far as I know I have none of the media. I'll see if I have any 8" carts to spare. > The complete drive unit is made by Bering but it uses to Bernoulli > drives. It has a HP-IB interface and was sold for use with the HP > computers. IEM made similar drives. I have some of both. They're pretty damn reliable. I read a batch of about 15 that were written in the middle to late 1980s and I only encountered a few errors on a couple of the disks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 30 11:40:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <13741335.1099151288812.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlin k.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:48 AM 10/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >I thought that the SD controller board set was also bit slice (the series II internal was of course 8271 based). That's possible but I've never seen a SD board set and I have 8 or nine complete machines and about that many more for parts plus hundreds of Multibus cards. I guess that anyone that paid for a board set went with the DD set. I don't think that the SD set is even shown in the few catalogs that I have. I wonder why Intel would use bit slice on the SD board set instead of an 8271? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 03:41:14 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041030102052.0089e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > That's interesting. I've never even heard of a white MDS-800 before. Was > it painted white originally or was it painted over an orginal blue one? I've got a white one. It's a model 225. I'll get the exact model number and post it here if it's on any value. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 03:46:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <4183AE1C.8020206@mich.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > Yeah, that white MDS-800 is the first I've seen as well. Very cool, I > think. Oh wait, duh, sorry. I didn't realize Joe was referring to the MDS-800. I've never seen a white one either, and that would indeed be interesting. Somewhere along the line I wasn't paying attention when I read Klemens' message :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 30 11:51:23 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041030125123.0094db90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I finally checked out the HP 1000. It seems to work. I checked and the CPU section has a DCPC card, Memory Protect Bd, Mem Bd, four 256KW memory cards and a 2102E Memory Controller. The IO side is full of cards. Here's the list: I/O Buffer, I/O Buffer, 12966A BACI Bd, 13183 7970 Mag Tape 2, 13183 7970 Mag Tape 1, 26099A Line Printer, 26099A Line Printer, Bus I/O, 12966A BACI Bd, 12966A BACI Bd, 13037 Intface, 12821A Disk Intface, Time Base Gen, FEM. It seems to be quite a nice machine. Joe I went to one of my favorite scrap sources today but I was just there a few days ago so I didn't expect to find anything. But I was wrong! I found a NICE F series HP 1000 along with the Floating Point Unit. I haven't looked at it closely yet but all the card slots are full and it's in very good condition. It was mounted in a short (desk height) HP cabinet marked "HP 1000 System" along the top. Unfortunately I had to leave the cabinet, it was just too big and heavy fit in the vehicle that I was in. I'll go through the computer later and give a full list of all the stuff in it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Oct 30 12:00:56 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: White MDS-800 Re: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: References: <4183AE1C.8020206@mich.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041030130056.008e0aa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just looked at it again and realized that it has a SAB 8080 CPU in it! SAB 8080 CPUs are scarce (here in the US anyway). I wonder how one ended up in this machine. Perhaps Siemens built more of it than we thought. It would be interesting to check the manufacturer's brands on some of the other parts. Joe At 01:46 AM 10/30/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Dave Mabry wrote: > >> Yeah, that white MDS-800 is the first I've seen as well. Very cool, I >> think. > >Oh wait, duh, sorry. I didn't realize Joe was referring to the MDS-800. >I've never seen a white one either, and that would indeed be interesting. >Somewhere along the line I wasn't paying attention when I read Klemens' >message :( > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Oct 30 12:05:34 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <13741335.1099151288812.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlin k.net> <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041030124955.03297010@mail.earthlink.net> the very first MDS800 I worked on in 1977 was SD based and used ISIS (not ISIS-II). In fact, I even had the paper tape reader and punch to go with it. Company is long gone of course, but my memory lingers on. When I spoke about the 8271, I was talking about the IOC board in the series II and was not talking about the MDS800 because it had no internal boards other than the bus board all the carded plugged into. The 8271 was not introduced until 1977 when the Series II was released. The MDS800 was released in 1975. Their decision was based on available technology... At 12:40 PM 10/30/2004, you wrote: >At 11:48 AM 10/30/04 -0400, you wrote: > >I thought that the SD controller board set was also bit slice (the series >II internal was of course 8271 based). > > That's possible but I've never seen a SD board set and I have 8 or nine >complete machines and about that many more for parts plus hundreds of >Multibus cards. I guess that anyone that paid for a board set went with the >DD set. I don't think that the SD set is even shown in the few catalogs >that I have. I wonder why Intel would use bit slice on the SD board set >instead of an 8271? > > Joe From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 30 12:24:07 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: OT: Help ID old IBM electric typewriter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Rich Bramante wrote: > > > Found this clearing out storage. > > > > Tried to ID via google, not able to conclusively do so. Is it a Model C? Looks > > at least a little like one. Is it worth anything or should I scrap it? Seems > > too heavy to ship it reasonably. > > > > Thanks if you have any ideas. > > > > Pics here: http://boston.craigslist.org/wan/47147260.html > > It's definitely a Model C. See photos here: > > http://www.etypewriters.com/history.htm > > I'd definitely take it if it was a Model B as that was what was used on > the PDP-1 for a console typewriter (modified of course). The 'C' is a > different styling than the B. > > Worth keeping? To someone I'm sure. Was it ever used as the console for > any computers? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > Those picture remind me, Did Friden buy the model IBM model 4 design for the first Flexowriter series? The case and mechanisms seem identical Peter Wallace From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 30 12:31:34 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: [Simh] teco macros for teco=emacs? In-Reply-To: <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <8BDAA59D-2A99-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 30, 2004, at 6:24 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? > > Yeah, but not for DEC PDP-11 TECO. > > The MIT PDP-10 TECO and the macros that make it EMACS are on the web at > > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/index.html > >> teco/em ? a bunch of teco macros that emulate some simple useful >> subset >> of emacs? I looked at those, I don't know if they will survive the cut and paste to get them to my pdp11. Many of the characters are portrayed as the 'box' character the Mac uses to show some control codes.. Perhaps I will just have to roll my own. Teco is still greek to me so that will take lots of study. :^) From dmabry at mich.com Sat Oct 30 12:31:25 2004 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4183CFED.1000705@mich.com> I think the reason that Intel did that SD controller in the bit-slice implementation is that the 8271 hadn't been made yet. Joe R. wrote: > At 11:48 AM 10/30/04 -0400, you wrote: > >>I thought that the SD controller board set was also bit slice (the series > > II internal was of course 8271 based). > > That's possible but I've never seen a SD board set and I have 8 or nine > complete machines and about that many more for parts plus hundreds of > Multibus cards. I guess that anyone that paid for a board set went with the > DD set. I don't think that the SD set is even shown in the few catalogs > that I have. I wonder why Intel would use bit slice on the SD board set > instead of an 8271? > > Joe > From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Oct 30 14:11:33 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: HP 25 and HP55 References: <200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com><200410212159.OAA10947@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.32.20041026105145.00957810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00c601c4beb4$50e51e40$0200a8c0@geoff> > >>> --Have pointers on replacing the battery pack on the 55? > >>> (it seems to be 3 AAA nicads) > > Yes. Replace the cells with other nicad cells. Forget LiIon, NiMH and > all the other types. Buy GOOD NiCads and they'll last for many years. My > personal preference is the >>>>>>>>>> Japanese made <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Sanyo batteries. Don't let them substitute the Mexican made Sanyos or > Chinese made trash!!!!! Don't let them tell you that even the Japanese > marked batteries are made in Mexico of that the Mexican made bateries are > the same as the Japanese made ones, THEY'RE NOT! FWIW I have a set of > Sanyos that I bought in Thailand in 1974 that are still useable. I'd agree with that my Commodore calculator has Sanyo CADNICAS in it from the same era - N500AAF types. I tend to charge them outside the calculator these days though. Geoff. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04 From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat Oct 30 14:01:13 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: LF: DEC VAX 4000/xxx Message-ID: <041030150113.8b3@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have a couple of 4000/100 units, nothing else. Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat Oct 30 14:13:34 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: 386/25 Message-ID: <041030151334.8b3@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have two 386-25 boards. One is an AMD 386sx-25, used and I might have the documentation. THe other is an unused (NOS) 386sx-25 highly (for that time) integrated motherboard, with floppies and documentation. Original ad from TImeline, inc is included. 6 slots for memory, up to 16MB memory, ide interface, floppy interface, serial, paralle, mouse, keyboard and VGA. I paid $100, never got to use it. THe one issue is that it only has one slot, made for a riser board. I also have a riser board, with 3 isa slots on one side and two on the other. Joe Heck From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Oct 30 15:22:30 2004 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? Message-ID: <001201c4bebe$3215a700$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> I am staying at The Residence Inn in Mountain View. (The official hotel of The Vintage Computer Festival .) I have not been to the San Jose area in about 5 years. What is interesting there? (Geek stuff). Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From allain at panix.com Sat Oct 30 16:08:50 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Horrifying picture - mainframe graveyard References: <000201c4be86$fa381110$707ba8c0@xpdesk> Message-ID: <011301c4bec4$a843ce60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5134567267 > {detail picture: graveyard} http://gra.midco.net/poppke/mac4.jpg Worse yet is if they saved nothing and told no-one. I believe more of those type businesses exist than this one. So, by comparison I almost like this seller, he's giving the classiccmp community something rather than nothing. Food for thought. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 08:17:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: OT mail spam question Message-ID: I just moved my mail server to my internal office network. The IP block I've been assigned apparently used to be used for dynamic DSL users. The problem is, at some point someone used one or more of these IP addresses to send out spam, enough so that my entire Class C block is blacklisted in some database. I'm getting reject messages occasionally when I try to send someone e-mail, like so: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to smtp.secureserver.net.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 553 66.120.4.* mail rejected due to excessive spam (Spam received from 66.120.4.201) 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown It's a very small percentage of my mail, but it's keeping me from responding to people sending me inquiries in some instances. How the *hell* do I track down what fuckwit is blacklisting my address? I appreciate the efforts people go through to thwart spam but this blanket blocking bullshit really pisses me off. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Oct 30 16:36:32 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: OT mail spam question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> I just moved my mail server to my internal office network. >>> The IP block I've been assigned apparently used to be used >>> for dynamic DSL users. The problem is, at some point >>> someone used one or more of these IP addresses to send out >>> spam, enough so that my entire Class C block is blacklisted >>> in some database. >>> Caveat Emptor.... >>> >>> How the *hell* do I track down what fuckwit is blacklisting >>> my address? >>> >>> I appreciate the efforts people go through to thwart spam >>> but this blanket blocking bullshit really pisses me off. >>> Alas, it it not uncommon. And many of the blacklists are shared, so even if you get off one, you get re-blacklisted when another one reports. I had a similar situation about 2 years ago, the only solution I found was to threaten to sue the provider of the IP Block (in fact there was little or no legal basis for a suit), but I did get a different block assigned [although the first two alternated he offered both had some blacklisted IP's] Good luck. From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Oct 30 17:35:23 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: FS: The Digital Group docs, virgin Apple II board Message-ID: Hi, To make room for more DEC gear, I need to let go of some of the other stuffI seem to have accumulated over the years. Right now, these items are available: 1x Apple II mainboard, virgin. 2x Various The Digital Group manuals, schematics and several tens of issues of their "JUDGE" and "BRIDGE" publications. Vintage early to mid 70's. If you're interested, make me a reasonable offer off-list. I will ship these outside of Holland, as they're small. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 30 17:38:02 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: NEC PC-8201A In-Reply-To: <417D6305.9040702@theriver.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041030153418.02e95ec0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 01:33 PM 10/25/04 -0700, Tom Ponsford wrote: >Digging through what I thought was just another giant box 0' cables from >the UA auction, I got to the bottom and there were 2 NEC PC-8201A and 2 >NEC PC-8300 all in working order. Dunno if that is good or bad. ;) Several times at auctions I have found boxes that are junk on the top layer, and treasure on the bottom. Bidding on those lots can look pretty crasy to people who haven't looked. From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Oct 30 18:01:54 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: OT mail spam question References: Message-ID: <16772.7522.75360.680898@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> I just moved my mail server to my internal office network. Vintage> The IP block I've been assigned apparently used to be used Vintage> for dynamic DSL users. The problem is, at some point Vintage> someone used one or more of these IP addresses to send out Vintage> spam, enough so that my entire Class C block is blacklisted Vintage> in some database. Vintage> I'm getting reject messages occasionally when I try to send Vintage> someone e-mail, like so: Vintage> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking Vintage> to smtp.secureserver.net.: >>>> RCPT To: Vintage> <<< 553 66.120.4.* mail rejected due to excessive spam (Spam Vintage> received from 66.120.4.201) 550 5.1.1 Vintage> ... User unknown Vintage> It's a very small percentage of my mail, but it's keeping me Vintage> from responding to people sending me inquiries in some Vintage> instances. Vintage> How the *hell* do I track down what fuckwit is blacklisting Vintage> my address? That won't necessarily help. Some of these blocker "services" are run by selfrighteous zealots who think that some spam messages from an ISP customer is sufficient grounds to blacklist ALL mail from ALL customers of that ISP. And they don't seem to be amenable to reason. The best solution is not to communicate by people who support such fools; once they switch to more sensible spam prevention tools, they'll be able to communicate again. paul From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 30 18:21:51 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? In-Reply-To: <001201c4bebe$3215a700$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> References: <001201c4bebe$3215a700$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: <7AC36633-2ACA-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 30, 2004, at 1:22 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > I am staying at The Residence Inn in Mountain View. (The official > hotel of > The Vintage Computer Festival .) > > I have not been to the San Jose area in about 5 years. What is > interesting > there? (Geek stuff). > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley > > > New or used geek-stuff? Fry's (ducking) Weird Stuff Halted Action Computer Mike Quinn Electronics (far away in oakland) Apple store in Valley Fair It's not geek-stuff - but there is a new Ikea in east Palo Alto... unmmm errrrr that place on the side road next to 101 (but I think they are snooty) [hows that for someone who moved to Blue Springs MO, Eureka CA, and now lives in Tulare CA.. But I visit about every other month from Tulare] From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Oct 30 18:41:45 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? In-Reply-To: <001201c4bebe$3215a700$9865fea9@hslckirkland.org> Message-ID: <000001c4beda$04af1eb0$6e7ba8c0@p933> The most interesting geek destination is the VCF location itself - the Computer History Museum. There is also Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale although most of their stuff is PC nowadays. The Tech in downtown San Jose is fun, but really geared for a younger crowd. I still enjoy it though. I'm sure some other folks will pipe in with other destinations. . . I'll see you at the VCF! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 1:23 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? I am staying at The Residence Inn in Mountain View. (The official hotel of The Vintage Computer Festival .) I have not been to the San Jose area in about 5 years. What is interesting there? (Geek stuff). Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 18:27:40 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Printer "Interface" Cables In-Reply-To: <3485155.1099000260751.JavaMail.root@dedicated170-bos> from "Mike Baldwin" at Oct 28, 4 09:51:00 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > Can anyone tell me the difference between the two different TRS-80 > Model 1 Printer Interface Cables? These are the cables used to connect I remember those... I used one for a year on my Model 1 with a CGP115 printer. The next year I got the EI and a disk drive... > a Line Printer directly to the expansion bus on a Model 1 without using > the Expansion Interface. They are ribbon cables with a "little black > box" midstream containing the printer port circuitry. The 26-1411 was > originally for the LP1 and the 26-1416 was for the LP2. > > Now, I know that these also worked on subsequent Line Printers, and my > understanding was that the 26-1411 worked on most while the 1416 only > worked on a few (!) > > What exactly is the difference? Does anyone know? I'm coming into > possesion of a LP3, but I only have a 26-1416 cable.... I don't know if > this will work (I'm very confused!) Firstly a minor quirk. The interface circuit gets its 5V power from the printer (pin of the Centronics connector. Radio Shack printers provide this, some others may not. Now, IIRC the cable is in 2 parts. A short part which plugs into the M1 expansion connector, and which includes the interface chips, and a longer part that fits onto a card edge on the interface PCB and connects to the printer. It's the second part that's different between the 2 cables I think. One of them has a normal 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector, the other has an edge connector. You have to use whichever one fits your printer. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sat Oct 30 19:02:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface Message-ID: I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got here. It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the manual for the DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg style connector, whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style connectors. Does anyone have the documentation for this? And now for a really stupid question: Can the 11/23 run RT-11? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 30 19:58:50 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: OT mail spam question In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "OT mail spam question" (Oct 30, 6:17) References: Message-ID: <10410310158.ZM19990@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 30 2004, 6:17, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I just moved my mail server to my internal office network. The IP block > I've been assigned apparently used to be used for dynamic DSL users. The > problem is, at some point someone used one or more of these IP addresses > to send out spam, enough so that my entire Class C block is blacklisted in > some database. You don't have a Class C, you have a block of 8. Looks like a DSL to me :-) In fact, the netblock which your addresses are part of *is* used for DSL lines, including dynamic ones, as far as I can see -- and the netblock as a whole is bigger than a Class C. > I'm getting reject messages occasionally when I try to send someone > e-mail, like so: > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to smtp.secureserver.net.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 553 66.120.4.* mail rejected due to excessive spam (Spam received from > 66.120.4.201) > 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown > > It's a very small percentage of my mail, but it's keeping me from > responding to people sending me inquiries in some instances. > > How the *hell* do I track down what fuckwit is blacklisting my address? It's not in the obvious places like MAPS, so short of asking Google for all the blackhole lists, your best bet is to ask one of the sites that's blocking your mail. It could conceivably also be something to do with your broken DNS. The name servers don't return reverse lookups, and don't list an MX record. If you're running your mail server from a DSL line, that's the risk you take. It's too easy for spammers to take a short-term contract, get an address, abuse it, and disappear before the ISP can do anything about it. It's also common for inexpert users to misconfigure SMTP servers to be insecure in a spectacularly large number of ways. The easiest way to counter such problems is to list dialups and dynamically-allocated IPs (or the blocks they're in) in one of the DULs. Often the address space owner will do that. You could try asking Pac Bell if they have. The proper way to do it is to have your mailserver talk to a "smart host" that is well managed and hasn't ended up on a blackhole list. If you're bothered about the possibility that it might go down at a time beyond your control, and you use a recent version of sendmail, you can specify a fallback smarthost, I think. You ought to upgrade anyway, what you're using is fairly old [wonders if he should hide his own headers on this email ;-)]. Several ISPs will let you buy mail relay rights for very little money, and you can use SMTP AUTH to be able to talk to servers that know you, even when you're relaying through them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 30 20:02:51 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! References: <3.0.6.32.20041030125123.0094db90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001901c4bee5$58ed6e40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe R> wrote... > I checked and the > CPU section has a DCPC card, Memory Protect Bd, Mem Bd, four 256KW memory > cards and a 2102E Memory Controller. The IO side is full of cards. What's more interesting than the cards, is the firmware chips on the FEM board, and on the FAB board underneath the cpu card (if it has one). Jay From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Oct 30 20:07:38 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20041031010738.GA23485@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Oct 30, 2004 at 05:02:00PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > And now for a really stupid question: > > Can the 11/23 run RT-11? Yes. It runs RT-11 very well. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 31-Oct-2004 01:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.1 F (-52.8 C) Windchill -82.40 F (-63.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 097 Barometer 675.4 mb (10800. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From news at computercollector.com Sat Oct 30 22:24:55 2004 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector E-Mail Newsletter) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? In-Reply-To: <000001c4beda$04af1eb0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: <20041031032455.4933.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> I'm arriving Friday afternoon, also staying at the Residence Inn... will head right over to the museum to help Sellam & Co. with setting stuff up... everyone else should do the same. :) - evan --- "Erik S. Klein" wrote: > The most interesting geek destination is the VCF location itself - the > Computer History Museum. > > There is also Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale although most of their > stuff is PC nowadays. > > The Tech in downtown San Jose is fun, but really geared for a younger > crowd. I still enjoy it though. > > I'm sure some other folks will pipe in with other destinations. . . > > I'll see you at the VCF! > > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forum > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 1:23 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Who is going to VFC 7.0? > > I am staying at The Residence Inn in Mountain View. (The official hotel > of > The Vintage Computer Festival .) > > I have not been to the San Jose area in about 5 years. What is > interesting > there? (Geek stuff). > > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley > > > > > ===== Tell your friends about the Computer Collector Newsletter! -- It's free and we'll never send spam or share your email address -- Publishing every Monday(-ish), ask about writing for us -- Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all Visit the museums directory and read about past events at our web site: http://news.computercollector.com Contact us at news@computercollector.com 585 readers and counting! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 30 22:31:46 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200410302231.46194.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Saturday 30 October 2004 07:02 pm: > I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got > here. It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the > manual for the DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg > style connector, whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style > connectors. > > Does anyone have the documentation for this? Normally, a DLV11-J also has the four 10pin connectors. The cable that goes between them is a ribbon with a 40pin IDC at one end and 4 x 10pin IDCs at the other, wired such that the first 10pin is on the second connector's pins 1-10, the next on 11-20, the third on 21-30, and the fourth on 31-40. That should be simple enough, right? : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wpileggi at juno.com Sat Oct 30 22:57:49 2004 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home Message-ID: <20041030.205806.519.344683@webmail01.lax.untd.com> A friend has an Eagle all-in-one machine that runs CPM. 8080 or Z-80, 64K RAM, 2 floppy disk drives. 1 original, 1 copy of manual. Software? Sort of resembles Radio Shack model 3 - monitor, keyboard and drives all in one case. Working status unknown - I only read through the manual - it's in his storage room. Located in PA. 19001 weight ~30 pounds? Bill ________________________________________________________________ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 31 00:02:59 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Intel MDS Further Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This weekend I had the time to pull open the Intel MDS system I mentioned last week, and record info and photograph all the Multibus cards. I've put the info up on some personal web space. All are invited to comment on and advise me on what I've got. The URL is: http://sasteven.multics.org/MDS/Intel_MDS_Cards.html Here's the 'text' of the page, which includes board numbers, etc. (go to web page for a photo of each board) ---------------- >These boards are out of my MDS system. It was targeted as an ICE for >the 8051 microcontroller. The emulator POD plugs into one of the board >sets below. > >This page is organized to document the boards as they are installed in >the Multibus cage from the bottom going up. > >--------------------------------- > >Bottom Board on Rack- > >Floppy Disk Interface >Double Density >PWA 123857-002 >S/N 023767 > >This board has a cable plugged into it's top edge connector. > >--------------------------------- > > >Next Board Up > >Floppy Disk Controller Channel >PWA 10000457-05 >(may have copied down one extra 'zero' in above part number) > >This board does not have a cable plugged into the 'top' edge connector. >Edge connector shows 'weathering' from not having connector on it. > >--------------------------------- > >Next Board Up > >Trace Board >PWA 162249-001 >S/N 13904 > >J10 and J11 headers which are brought out to the Emulator Pod. > >--------------------------------- > >Next Board Up > >Controller Board >PWA 162380-005 Rev M > >This board has an 8080A Processor on it. >The Multibus P2 board edge is 'bridged' to Trace Board (above) on a >two-slot interconnect board. >Has header on it brought out to Emulator pod and also power header to >emulator pod. > >--------------------------------- > > Open Slot, second from top. > >--------------------------------- > >Top Board > >I.P.C. board >PWA 123192-003 >S/N 084111 > >This board has an 8085 Processor and array of memory chips. >Also has two 8251 and two 8259 chips. >Board has row of buttons to generate interrupts that faces out to front >of system. It appears I have here an 8085 based system. Is this correct. It also appears that there's an 8080 controller as part of the emulation system. I'm assuming (?) the system would run with the Emulator boards (Trace Board and Controller Board) not installed. Some questions: 1. Is the memory array on the top board (board with 8085 processor) the main system memory. It looks like four rows of 4116x8, for a total 64K. 2. The system has a built in CRT display, and a keyboard input. Where is the video generated and keyboard I/O circuitry? Any and all insights into this system are welcomed. Probably I'll add in any info I receive into the HTML for the page. Thanks, Scott From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 31 03:51:49 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface" (Oct 30, 17:02) References: Message-ID: <10410310951.ZM20344@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 30 2004, 17:02, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got here. > It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the manual for the > DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg style connector, > whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style connectors. > > Does anyone have the documentation for this? Not for that make/model, but for a DEC DLV11-J, yes. The DLV11 is a single RS232 interface, by the way, and the DLV11-J has 4 serial lines. Looking into each 10-pin socket, the pinout is: _____________________ | | | 9 7 5 3 1 | | | | 10 8 6 4 2 | |_____________________| 1 UART clock in or out (not normally connected) 2 Signal ground 3 Tx + 4 Tx - 5 Signal ground 6 Index position - no pin 7 Rx - 8 Rx + 9 Signal ground 10 +12V via fuse F1 (if fitted) The receivers are differential. If you're using them for an RS-232 device, connect a link between pin 7 and one of 2, 5, or 9, to make the RX- line ground-referenced, then use 3 for TxD and 8 for RxD. Loopback connectors for testing usually jumper 3 to 8 and 4 to 7 (RS-422 mode) but sometimes jumper 3 to 8 and 7 to 9 (RS-232 mode). On a DEC DLV11-J, there are several wirewrap jumpers to set baud rate, word length, address, etc, and also two to set channel 3 to the console address, if required. Channel 3 is the connector nearest the left as you look into the back of a machine, with the board fitted component-side up. The jumpers are labelled C1 and C2; link X to 1 if you do want the console on channel 3, or X to 0 if you don't. There's also a set of three labelled B/X/H which determine what happens if you send a break if Ch.3 is the console. Jumpering X to B makes the system boot (it grounds the BINIT line), jumpering to H makes it halt (grounds the BHALT line). Leave it disconnected if you don't want either action. > And now for a really stupid question: > > Can the 11/23 run RT-11? It will run it very well. Several of my 11/23s came with RT-11 of one flavour or another. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sun Oct 31 05:17:21 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home References: <20041030.205806.519.344683@webmail01.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <004701c4bf3b$325651b0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> why cant stuff like this come available over here (UK) :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pileggi" To: Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 3:57 AM Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home > > A friend has an Eagle all-in-one machine that runs CPM. 8080 or Z-80, 64K > RAM, 2 floppy disk drives. 1 original, 1 copy of manual. Software? Sort of > resembles Radio Shack model 3 - monitor, keyboard and drives all in one > case. Working status unknown - I only read through the manual - it's in > his storage room. Located in PA. 19001 weight ~30 pounds? Bill --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 27/10/2004 From classiccmp at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Oct 31 06:52:13 2004 From: classiccmp at blueyonder.co.uk (Francis Bell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 in the UK Message-ID: I have listed a PDP-11/34a on ebay - I have had this system since leaving college 17 years ago and it has been well looked after. Unfortunately I now need the space, so the system is up for sale. The buyer will need to collect in a van, as this lot is bulky, heavy and fragile. You can see details and some photos at: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&rd=1&item=5135356834&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT This is a complete system with drives, terminal, manuals, cables, spares etc. There is no reserve and bidding opens at 40UKP. ---- Francis From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Oct 31 07:10:31 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Intel MDS Further Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041031075719.033c6510@mail.earthlink.net> At 12:02 AM 10/31/2004, Scott Stevens wrote: >It appears I have here an 8085 based system. Is this correct. It >also appears that there's an 8080 controller as part of the emulation >system. I'm assuming (?) the system would run with the Emulator >boards (Trace Board and Controller Board) not installed. yes, the system only requires the IPC board to run and even use the internal single density drive >Some questions: > >1. Is the memory array on the top board (board with 8085 processor) >the main system memory. It looks like four rows of 4116x8, for a >total 64K. you have 64K of main memory. Actually only 62K is available because there is a 2K rom monitor that overlays the top ram >2. The system has a built in CRT display, and a keyboard input. >here is the video generated and keyboard I/O circuitry? the vertical board in back is the IOC board and generates the vertical, horizontal, and video intensity for the display monitor (the video controller is the 8275 chip). The same board supplies the interface to the keyboard which actually contains a 8041/8042 I/O processor (can't remember exactly which one). One thing you will realize with Intel is that they were not like all the CP/M computers. Intel used a processor nearly everywhere to delegate control and increase speed. Each emulation set you will find contains at least one processor. The IOC contains a 8080 along with its own eprom control program, as well as another 8041 processor. >Any and all insights into this system are welcomed. Probably I'll add >in any info I receive into the HTML for the page. > >Thanks, >Sc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 07:28:00 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Intel MDS Further Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031082800.00976d70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Scott, Nice pictures. I'm in the process of creating a photogrpahic catalog of all the Multibus cards that I can get my hands on. Do you mind if I use your pictures and dscriptions? I have so many loose cards to do that I never got around to taking the cards out of my MDS 235 and photographing them. More below. At 12:02 AM 10/31/04 -0500, you wrote: >This weekend I had the time to pull open the Intel MDS system I >mentioned last week, and record info and photograph all the Multibus >cards. I've put the info up on some personal web space. All are >invited to comment on and advise me on what I've got. > >The URL is: http://sasteven.multics.org/MDS/Intel_MDS_Cards.html > >Here's the 'text' of the page, which includes board numbers, etc. (go >to web page for a photo of each board) > >---------------- >>These boards are out of my MDS system. It was targeted as an ICE for >>the 8051 microcontroller. The emulator POD plugs into one of the board >>sets below. >> >>This page is organized to document the boards as they are installed in >>the Multibus cage from the bottom going up. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >>Bottom Board on Rack- >> >>Floppy Disk Interface >>Double Density >>PWA 123857-002 >>S/N 023767 >> >>This board has a cable plugged into it's top edge connector. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >> >>Next Board Up >> >>Floppy Disk Controller Channel >>PWA 10000457-05 >>(may have copied down one extra 'zero' in above part number) >> >>This board does not have a cable plugged into the 'top' edge connector. >>Edge connector shows 'weathering' from not having connector on it. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >>Next Board Up >> >>Trace Board >>PWA 162249-001 >>S/N 13904 >> >>J10 and J11 headers which are brought out to the Emulator Pod. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >>Next Board Up >> >>Controller Board >>PWA 162380-005 Rev M >> >>This board has an 8080A Processor on it. >>The Multibus P2 board edge is 'bridged' to Trace Board (above) on a >>two-slot interconnect board. >>Has header on it brought out to Emulator pod and also power header to >>emulator pod. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >> Open Slot, second from top. >> >>--------------------------------- >> >>Top Board >> >>I.P.C. board >>PWA 123192-003 >>S/N 084111 >> >>This board has an 8085 Processor and array of memory chips. >>Also has two 8251 and two 8259 chips. >>Board has row of buttons to generate interrupts that faces out to front >>of system. > >It appears I have here an 8085 based system. Is this correct. It >also appears that there's an 8080 controller as part of the emulation >system. I'm assuming (?) the system would run with the Emulator >boards (Trace Board and Controller Board) not installed. > >Some questions: > >1. Is the memory array on the top board (board with 8085 processor) >the main system memory. It looks like four rows of 4116x8, for a >total 64K. 64k is correct. It sounds like you have a model 225 with the Integrated Processor Card with the 8085 CPU. The 225, 226 and 227 models came with an IPC (Integrated Processor Card). It has a 4 MHz 8085A-2 CPU and 4 K of ROM and 64K of RAM. All other (22x) models came with the IPB (Integrated Processor Board). It has a 2.6 MHz 8080A-2 and 4K of ROM and 32K of RAM. See . > >2. The system has a built in CRT display, and a keyboard input. >Where is the video generated and keyboard I/O circuitry? On the IOC (I/O Controller) board that stands vertically in the back of the machine. It handles all the system IO except for the Interrupt, Run and Reset Switches which are on the front panel and plug directly into the CPU card and the interface to the ICE and Trace pods. Joe > >Any and all insights into this system are welcomed. Probably I'll add >in any info I receive into the HTML for the page. > >Thanks, >Scott > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 07:33:53 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home In-Reply-To: <004701c4bf3b$325651b0$7dc3033e@gamemachine> References: <20041030.205806.519.344683@webmail01.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031083353.00985100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:17 AM 10/31/04 +0000, Bill Pileggi wrote: >why cant stuff like this come available over here (UK) :( Man, What timing! The very next message is from Francis Bell and says "PDP-11/34 in the UK". "This is a complete system with drives, terminal, manuals, cables, spares etc." From rich_bramante at yahoo.com Sun Oct 31 08:16:45 2004 From: rich_bramante at yahoo.com (Rich Bramante) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Big Iron available - Data General Eclipse - plus lots more smaller stuff In-Reply-To: <58699.127.0.0.1.1098992171.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20041031141645.83166.qmail@web21529.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Erik, I might be interested in the Ace 1000 if it is working and could be obtained on the cheap. I have one that I've been trying to restore, but it has not been going well and I have my doubts as to whether I can make it go :-( I'd also really like a working Model III, but I think the shipping from CA to MA would be prohibitive. Sigh. Let me know. rich --- classiccmp@vintage-computer.com wrote: > The same place had a bunch of smaller items as well including a very clean > TRS-80 Mod 3 with a RS dustcover, a Kaypro II, a Franklin Ace 1000, a CoCo __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 10:43:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: <200410302231.46194.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Saturday 30 October 2004 07:02 pm: > > I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got > > here. It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the > > manual for the DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg > > style connector, whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style > > connectors. > > > > Does anyone have the documentation for this? > > Normally, a DLV11-J also has the four 10pin connectors. The cable that Right. That's the card I have (DLV11-J). I have the manual for the DLV11, which describes the 40-pin connector. > goes between them is a ribbon with a 40pin IDC at one end and 4 x 10pin > IDCs at the other, wired such that the first 10pin is on the second > connector's pins 1-10, the next on 11-20, the third on 21-30, and the > fourth on 31-40. > > That should be simple enough, right? : ) Right, but then what the hell am I supposed to do with a 40-pin IDC? :) I need to convert that to something sane. I.E. a DA9 or DB25. So the next question is, what are the pinouts? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 31 11:32:36 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA Message-ID: I remember I flew into LAX(i think)... LAX is connected to the nearest freeway via a longish branch. So I came out of LAX, "Turned Right" (toward the ocean- west) at the branch - went a distance, "Turned left) (south) on some street - and found on the right hand side a very "Weirdstuff" like place? That same street continues and becomes another freeway that I had to take to get to my work-site in Compton. Anyone know where I was? Any other electronics-junkyard type places in LA? It has just occurred to me that LA is only 3 hours away...Road Trip! :^) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 10:42:54 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031083353.00985100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20041030.205806.519.344683@webmail01.lax.untd.com> <3.0.6.32.20041031083353.00985100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: >At 11:17 AM 10/31/04 +0000, Bill Pileggi wrote: >>why cant stuff like this come available over here (UK) :( > > > Man, What timing! The very next message is from Francis Bell and says >"PDP-11/34 in the UK". "This is a complete system with drives, terminal, >manuals, cables, spares etc." Thankfully I've not seen a system like that turn up near me :^) Wow! Whoever, gets that is getting a NICE setup! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 12:08:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: <200410302231.46194.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 30, 4 10:31:46 pm Message-ID: > > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Saturday 30 October 2004 07:02 pm: > > I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got > > here. It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the > > manual for the DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg > > style connector, whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style > > connectors. > > > > Does anyone have the documentation for this? > > Normally, a DLV11-J also has the four 10pin connectors. The cable that But a plain DLV11 is a single-line interface (like a DL11) and has a single 40 pin Berg header. I suspect that's the pinotu Sellam has. I would try to find the DLV11-J manual (the DEC one), which has 4 10 pin Berg headers. If you can't find it, I'll see what I can do. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Oct 31 12:38:10 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Eagle" CPM machine, all-in-one, w/manuals needs a home In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031083353.00985100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20041030.205806.519.344683@webmail01.lax.untd.com> <3.0.6.32.20041031083353.00985100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <41853112.5080909@gifford.co.uk> Joe R. wrote: > Man, What timing! The very next message is from Francis Bell and says > "PDP-11/34 in the UK". "This is a complete system with drives, terminal, > manuals, cables, spares etc." I've worked on this PDP-11, and it's a good 'un! Fran's acquired a good selection of spares, accessories and manuals, too. I just wish I had the space at home to take it myself, but I don't. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 31 12:48:55 2004 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: cp/m box for software Message-ID: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com> Hi all, did a little work on cp/m in the good old days, and thinking about getting at least one machine up again. As it would be mostly for having fun with the z80 again (or 8085, z180, z280?), I'm probably not interested too much in having any of the collector grade machines. So, the question is, what is the best cp/m machine for playing with the software ? cheers & thanks From rcini at optonline.net Sun Oct 31 13:06:40 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c4bf7c$c1923150$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Ron: I'm sure that the people that live in LA can be of much more help but I periodically fly in/out of there when I go to my company's office in Pasadena. I think that main street that goes past LAX is Sepulveda Boulevard, which goes North-South, not East-West. The only other road is Century Boulevard which goes East from LAX, not West. I'm not aware of any direct Westbound link out of LAX. If you "make a right" out of LAX you're on Sepulveda southbound, not westbound. Sepulveda runs into W. Imperial Highway -- the 105 -- which runs East-West. Compton is South-East of LAX, just west of the 10/710, south of the 105 and north of the 91. This Mapquest link might help jog someone's memory a bit: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&countryid=US&addtohistory=&s earchtab=airport&searchtype=airport&cat=LAX&city=&state=CA&zipcode=&search=+ +Search++ Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ron Hudson Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:33 PM To: Classic Computers Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA I remember I flew into LAX(i think)... LAX is connected to the nearest freeway via a longish branch. So I came out of LAX, "Turned Right" (toward the ocean- west) at the branch - went a distance, "Turned left) (south) on some street - and found on the right hand side a very "Weirdstuff" like place? That same street continues and becomes another freeway that I had to take to get to my work-site in Compton. Anyone know where I was? Any other electronics-junkyard type places in LA? It has just occurred to me that LA is only 3 hours away...Road Trip! :^) From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 12:10:09 2004 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: "Weird Stuff" type place in LA References: <200410311800.i9VI02OZ014929@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <41852A81.2060408@socal.rr.com> > > >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:32:36 -0800 >From: Ron Hudson >Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA >To: Classic Computers >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > >I remember I flew into LAX(i think)... LAX is connected to the nearest >freeway via a longish branch. >So I came out of LAX, "Turned Right" (toward the ocean- west) at the >branch - went a distance, "Turned >left) (south) on some street - and found on the right hand side a very >"Weirdstuff" like place? >That same street continues and becomes another freeway that I had to >take to get to my work-site in Compton. > > Sounds like Artesia Bl (which becomes the 91 Freeway)....there is a "PC Recycler"-type place on Aviation Bl. just south of Artesia (it was in the shopping center in the southeast corner of that intersection, if I recall correctly). They buy up a lot of old business PC's and equipment, and resell them. But the name escapes me. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 07:51:09 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041030124955.03297010@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031085109.00958d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:05 PM 10/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >the very first MDS800 I worked on in 1977 was SD based and used ISIS (not >ISIS-II). In fact, I even had the paper tape reader and punch to go with >it. Company is long gone of course, but my memory lingers on. You go back further with these than I do. I've never found a copy of plain ISIS or any paper tapes. > >When I spoke about the 8271, I was talking about the IOC board in the >series II and was not talking about the MDS800 because it had no internal >boards other than the bus board all the carded plugged into. The 8271 was >not introduced until 1977 when the Series II was released. The MDS800 was >released in 1975. How sure are you of these dates? I've been trying to find out exactly when the various models were released but never found found anything that was authoritative. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 07:52:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:21 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. Joe From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Oct 31 13:25:57 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it > spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. Kildall. --f From paulpenn at knology.net Sun Oct 31 13:36:39 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: cp/m box for software References: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <008f01c4bf80$f129bce0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Emanuel wrote: > So, the question is, what is the best cp/m machine for playing with the > software ? I'd say a Kaypro. They can be had at very low cost -- or free -- and they come up all the time. The floppy systems are very reliable with just a few well-known trouble points. The hard disk model, Kaypro 10, would be nice but it would be hard to find one working now. They were hard to keep working even when new. There was a ton of detailed information on these in several magazines. I'd recommend a Kaypro 2x if you have a choice, because of the double-sided, half-height floppy drives. I kept one because it's easy to copy disks in any Kaypro format. You can also read and write almost any CP/M format floppy with the "Uniform" software, plus MSDOS format. I used to have a Kaypro dealership back in the day, so I could answer most questions after you do your due diligence on Google. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Oct 31 13:49:32 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041031194932.25857.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> There used to be a a huge warehouse on Artesia Blvd (91 freeway) in Gardena. They have been closed for while now I think - very sad. Is it Electronics Information Online? http://www.eio.com/ To those people who are in-the-know, ACP in Santa Ana has closed its doors - the store is empty - even sadder. Steve. http://www.eio.com/ --- Ron Hudson wrote: > I remember I flew into LAX(i think)... LAX is > connected to the nearest > freeway via a longish branch. > So I came out of LAX, "Turned Right" (toward the > ocean- west) at the > branch - went a distance, "Turned > left) (south) on some street - and found on the > right hand side a very > "Weirdstuff" like place? > That same street continues and becomes another > freeway that I had to > take to get to my work-site in Compton. > > Anyone know where I was? > > > Any other electronics-junkyard type places in LA? > It has just occurred > to me that LA is only 3 hours > away...Road Trip! :^) > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sun Oct 31 13:59:44 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: cp/m box for software In-Reply-To: <008f01c4bf80$f129bce0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> References: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com> <008f01c4bf80$f129bce0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <41854430.3010401@vzavenue.net> I'd like to get a Kaypro 2 also. I use a Commodore 128DCR but all of the software I use is for a Kaypro 2. At least the C-128D reads and writes Kaypro 2 disks as well as it's own format. James Paul A. Pennington wrote: > > I'd say a Kaypro. They can be had at very low cost -- or free -- > and they come up all the time. The floppy systems are very reliable > with just a few well-known trouble points. The hard disk model, > Kaypro 10, would be nice but it would be hard to find one working > now. They were hard to keep working even when new. > > There was a ton of detailed information on these in several > magazines. I'd recommend a Kaypro 2x if you have a choice, because of > the double-sided, half-height floppy drives. I kept one because it's > easy to copy disks in any Kaypro format. You can also read and write > almost any CP/M format floppy with the "Uniform" software, plus MSDOS > format. > > I used to have a Kaypro dealership back in the day, so I could > answer most questions after you do your due diligence on Google. > > Paul Pennington > Augusta, Georgia > -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Oct 31 14:36:48 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031085109.00958d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041031085109.00958d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041031153420.033d0130@mail.earthlink.net> Intel has a complete chronology of all their devices and systems at: http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/archives/timeline/ > How sure are you of these dates? I've been trying to find out exactly >when the various models were released but never found found anything that >was authoritative. > > Joe From tony.eros at machm.org Sun Oct 31 14:43:54 2004 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200410312044.PAA91658@smtp.9netave.com> I'm reasonably sure it's Kildall. -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 8:53 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Kildall or Kidall? Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 14:51:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > > > Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it > > spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. > Kildall. Most definitely. I've never seen anyone call him "Kidall" but that's just out and out wrong. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 14:52:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA In-Reply-To: <20041031194932.25857.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, steven wrote: > To those people who are in-the-know, ACP in Santa Ana has closed its > doors - the store is empty - even sadder. So nobody bid on it? I'm still trying to confirm Dave Freeman as a speaker at the VCF. He said he would do it and will be coming up, but I haven't gotten absolute confirmation from him yet. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 31 15:10:40 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: "Weird Stuff" type place in LA In-Reply-To: <41852A81.2060408@socal.rr.com> References: <200410311800.i9VI02OZ014929@huey.classiccmp.org> <41852A81.2060408@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <51B16A07-2B81-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 31, 2004, at 10:10 AM, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: >> >> >> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:32:36 -0800 >> From: Ron Hudson >> Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA >> To: Classic Computers >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >> >> I remember I flew into LAX(i think)... LAX is connected to the >> nearest freeway via a longish branch. >> So I came out of LAX, "Turned Right" (toward the ocean- west) at the >> branch - went a distance, "Turned >> left) (south) on some street - and found on the right hand side a >> very "Weirdstuff" like place? >> That same street continues and becomes another freeway that I had to >> take to get to my work-site in Compton. >> > Sounds like Artesia Bl (which becomes the 91 Freeway)....there is a > "PC Recycler"-type > place on Aviation Bl. just south of Artesia (it was in the shopping > center in the southeast > corner of that intersection, if I recall correctly). They buy up a lot > of old business PC's and > equipment, and resell them. But the name escapes me. I think the name of the street is correct, this was a big 2 story building with racks outside all around. > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 31 15:12:13 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: VCF Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <4185552D.C43B8352@rain.org> I am finally getting a list ready of stuff I'll be bringing to VCF to sell. It will be updated probably several times a day until there is no time left and I have to leave for VCF :). I'll also be bringing most of the stuff I have listed on VCM. http://www.rain.org/~marvin/2004VCF.txt It would be nice if others who will be selling there will also make and post a list of stuff being sold :). From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 31 15:39:40 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041031133803.H36122@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it > spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. He used to spell it Kildall. Parade magazine (sunday paper supplement) listed him as most important person for personal computers. I'm glad that they didn't pick billg! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 31 15:42:00 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) Message-ID: Ok, I am replacing the HP terminal with either a Macintosh SE or an Apple IIc+... Environment = Linux running simh pdp11 running RSTS/E V7.0 (with telnet from all my other machines) Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, although I think all three choices overflow the intended area. Please weigh in on the following three scenarios: Door #1 - Macintosh SE - Have an appletalk laser printer for this machine - perhaps smaller footprint. Door #2 - AppleIIc+ - Imagewriter instead of a laser printer if any printer at all. - Coolness factor (8 on a scale of 1 to 10) 10 would be a real DEC terminal.. - No Terminal software at hand.. (would beg someone to send me a diskette) Door #3 - HP Terminal - already and still hooked up, and works ok... but. - it's not *also* a computer that I want to get back on display. Your comments requested. From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 31 16:05:36 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Geek-Stuff places in LA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Any other electronics-junkyard type places in LA? It has just occurred to me > that LA is only 3 hours > away...Road Trip! :^) Apex in Sun Valley, N. of LA proper, on I5. APex Surplus, Apex Electronics, somthing like that. mon. - sat 9a - 4pm. Mostly older electronics (60's--70s) tek,hp, etc, I posted some about it a while back. Near zero computer gear. Lots of components and such. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 15:07:56 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Ok, I am replacing the HP terminal with either a Macintosh SE or an >Apple IIc+... You should be bale to get better terminal emulation software for the Mac, and a better keyboard. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tomj at wps.com Sun Oct 31 16:10:07 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <20041031133803.H36122@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20041031085234.00959ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20041031133803.H36122@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Parade magazine (sunday paper supplement) listed him as most important > person for personal computers. I'm glad that they didn't pick billg! Wow, that's actually impressive. Usually those sorts of Important tags to to the richest/most visible. Sounds like someone actually knew something. (Acknowledgeing if course that picking "the" most important etc in any field is actually a fool's task, but what the hey, credit where it's due.) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 31 16:20:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 13:42 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, you might just about get the end of a power cable in that :-) From acme at gbronline.com Sun Oct 31 16:38:29 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 problems (was cp/m box for software) References: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com> <008f01c4bf80$f129bce0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Message-ID: <005f01c4bf9a$5889a120$424f0945@acme> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul A. Pennington" > I'd say a Kaypro. They can be had at very low cost -- or free -- and > they come up all the time. The floppy systems are very reliable with just a > few well-known trouble points. The hard disk model, Kaypro 10, would be > nice but it would be hard to find one working now. They were hard to keep > working even when new. Really? I've had one for about four years and the thing just keeps trotting along. What spare parts should I be accumulating (if any)? Glen 0/0 From acme at gbronline.com Sun Oct 31 16:40:32 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com><200410281721.NAA14105@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <017301c4bd15$5fddf0c0$0200fea9@game> Message-ID: <006601c4bf9a$a2232ea0$424f0945@acme> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" > Perot was the only candidate to get any percentage of the vote that I can > remember in my lifetime. You must be a youngster. Ever heard of George Wallace? Glen 0/0 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 31 16:41:59 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: VCF Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <4185552D.C43B8352@rain.org> References: <4185552D.C43B8352@rain.org> Message-ID: <20041031143701.Q36122@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am finally getting a list ready of stuff I'll be bringing to VCF to > . . . > http://www.rain.org/~marvin/2004VCF.txt > It would be nice if others who will be selling there will also make and > post a list of stuff being sold :). I will NOT be selling at VCF this year. I still have a dozen cubic yards of stuff that I should sell or give away, but I have to teach on Saturday. And I've been too ill to deal with packing or sorting, particularly for only one day of it. I haven't even dug out stuff that I've promised to people. I'll try to come there on Sunday at least to visit, though. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 31 16:57:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041031145511.F36122@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 13:42 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > > Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, > you might just about get the end of a power cable in that :-) Epson RC-20 wrist watch computer with imitation Z80 Matsucom/Ruputer wrist computer (some similarities to Palm Pilot) Fossil wrist computer with Palm OS 4.1 (cancelled before release, but there are rumors of prototypes) From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 17:33:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: VCF Stuff for Sale In-Reply-To: <4185552D.C43B8352@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am finally getting a list ready of stuff I'll be bringing to VCF to > sell. It will be updated probably several times a day until there is no > time left and I have to leave for VCF :). I'll also be bringing most of > the stuff I have listed on VCM. > > http://www.rain.org/~marvin/2004VCF.txt > > It would be nice if others who will be selling there will also make and > post a list of stuff being sold :). The Trading Post board on the VCF 7.0 BBS can be used for this: http://vintage.org/2004/main/bbs.php?directive=index:VCF70:TRADE:0 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 17:34:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <20041031133803.H36122@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Parade magazine (sunday paper supplement) listed him as most important > person for personal computers. I'm glad that they didn't pick billg! Awesome! Was this recently? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 31 18:06:25 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? References: Message-ID: <00e501c4bfa6$a30003a0$4d406b43@66067007> It was in the Sunday October 24th issue of the Houston Chronicle and included a photo of him. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Kildall or Kidall? > On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Parade magazine (sunday paper supplement) listed him as most important >> person for personal computers. I'm glad that they didn't pick billg! > > Awesome! Was this recently? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From m_thompson at ids.net Sat Oct 30 07:07:05 2004 From: m_thompson at ids.net (M Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <41802179.6070505@mich.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20041030080705.00f89428@155.212.1.107> Siemens and Intel worked together on Multibus-II products in the mid 80s' At 06:30 PM 10/27/2004 -0400, Dave Mabry wrote: >I seem to remember that Intel had some sort of marketing agreement with >Siemens. There were several Intel products that had Siemens logos on >them sold in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't remember the specifics. > >Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I >> was working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM >> series emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that >> said Siemens on the outside. >> >> >>> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen >>> all >>> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting >>> about 3 >>> feet from me as I type.) >>> >>> Joe >> >> >> > > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 30 08:24:40 2004 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: [Simh] teco macros for teco=emacs? In-Reply-To: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? Yeah, but not for DEC PDP-11 TECO. The MIT PDP-10 TECO and the macros that make it EMACS are on the web at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/index.html > teco/em ? a bunch of teco macros that emulate some simple useful subset > of emacs? Yeah, you could do that. I was never a big fan of EMACS (aka a later perjorative backronym: "Eight Megabytes and Continually Swapping".) Tim. From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sat Oct 30 14:55:55 2004 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Classic OS's - EduSystem Message-ID: <200410301955.PAA14530@ss10.danlan.com> Charlie Root wrote: |I would be very interested in running Edusystem-20 on my 8e. I also have |a good paper tape reader/punch combo hooked up to my pc and would be |happy to make copies of this tape. | |Are full installation and user guides for Edusystem-20 around? I'm pretty sure I still have the Edusystem Handbook around somewhere. I think that has all the necessary information because I was able to use it to start from scratch (toggle in the initial loader, etc.) a couple of times in high school. Didn't the Edusystem tapes modify the RIM loader to start themselves or such? Once they started the interactive configuration dialog really didn't need any extra documentation. Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com From d0b at poetworld.net Sat Oct 30 18:40:25 2004 From: d0b at poetworld.net (db) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Anita Calculators Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.0.20041030162626.027974d0@mail.poetworld.net> Hi Lee. I saw your post on Classicomp.org about your Anita. That wasn't just a cool find; that was a once in a lifetime find, congrats. I paid a lot more for mine, but then i live in California and we didn't get too many of them out here. Just a lot of those ugly babes from "Baywatch". Mine didn't come with a manual and there are a couple of functions that I can't figure out yet. Is there any way i could get a copy from you? I'll share it around here too. There is a girl in New York who maintains a website for manuals at http://www.wass.net/manuals/ and I'll mail her the "Original copy" and credit it to you if you can send me one. Let me know if you can do it and thanks - d From mail at alderson.users.panix.com Sat Oct 30 20:04:44 2004 From: mail at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: [Simh] teco macros for teco=emacs? In-Reply-To: <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) References: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200410310104.i9V14id00601@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:24:40 -0400 > From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) >> Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? > Yeah, but not for DEC PDP-11 TECO. > The MIT PDP-10 TECO and the macros that make it EMACS are on the web at > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/index.html >> teco/em ? a bunch of teco macros that emulate some simple useful subset >> of emacs? > Yeah, you could do that. I was never a big fan of EMACS (aka > a later perjorative backronym: "Eight Megabytes and Continually Swapping".) Ah, but Tim, that was early GNU emacs on underpowered Unix hosts. The memory footprint of the original TECO implementation is much smaller: !i me 167. pages, Entry vector loc 4043 len 3 Section 0 R, W, E, Private 0-5 Private R, W, E 6-60 TECPUR.EXE.1220 1-53 R, E 62-63 Private R, W, E 64-65 EMACS.EXE.17001 10-11 R, CW, E 66-73 Private R, W, E 102-107 Private R, W, E 632-633 TIME.ELIB.52 0-1 R, E 634-635 MODLIN.ELIB.68 0-1 R, E 636-651 TMACS.ELIB.430 0-13 R, E 652-657 PURIFY.ELIB.1 0-5 R, E 660-663 SLOWLY.ELIB.130 0-3 R, E 664-671 TWENEX.ELIB.2 0-5 R, E 672-777 EMACS.ELIB.170 0-105 R, E ! plus pages for mapping the file into memory--maxes out around 260 pages. (For the non-36-bit crowd, a Tops-20 page is 512 36-bit words, holding 2560 ASCII chars.) Rich Alderson Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) and TECO (v. 1220) From mail at alderson.users.panix.com Sat Oct 30 20:07:02 2004 From: mail at alderson.users.panix.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: [Simh] teco macros for teco=emacs? In-Reply-To: <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) References: <514C58D4-2A50-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <41839618.nailEBS11TR3S@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200410310107.i9V172M00839@panix5.panix.com> > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:24:40 -0400 > From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) >> Emacs was originally a bunch of teco macros right? > Yeah, but not for DEC PDP-11 TECO. > The MIT PDP-10 TECO and the macros that make it EMACS are on the web at > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/mit_emacs_170_teco_1220/index.html >> teco/em ? a bunch of teco macros that emulate some simple useful subset >> of emacs? > Yeah, you could do that. I was never a big fan of EMACS (aka > a later perjorative backronym: "Eight Megabytes and Continually Swapping".) Ah, but Tim, that was early GNU emacs on underpowered Unix hosts. The memory footprint of the original TECO implementation is much smaller: !i me 167. pages, Entry vector loc 4043 len 3 Section 0 R, W, E, Private 0-5 Private R, W, E 6-60 TECPUR.EXE.1220 1-53 R, E 62-63 Private R, W, E 64-65 EMACS.EXE.17001 10-11 R, CW, E 66-73 Private R, W, E 102-107 Private R, W, E 632-633 TIME.ELIB.52 0-1 R, E 634-635 MODLIN.ELIB.68 0-1 R, E 636-651 TMACS.ELIB.430 0-13 R, E 652-657 PURIFY.ELIB.1 0-5 R, E 660-663 SLOWLY.ELIB.130 0-3 R, E 664-671 TWENEX.ELIB.2 0-5 R, E 672-777 EMACS.ELIB.170 0-105 R, E ! plus pages for mapping the file into memory--maxes out around 260 pages. (For the non-36-bit crowd, a Tops-20 page is 512 36-bit words, holding 2560 ASCII chars.) Rich Alderson Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) and TECO (v. 1220) From mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org Sun Oct 31 15:34:51 2004 From: mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org (Martin Bishop) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Need pinouts for MDB Systems DLV11J serial line interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> >> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Saturday 30 October 2004 07:02 pm: >> > I've got a serial line interface in this LSI 11/23 system I've got >> > here. It's made by MDB Systems and is model DLV11J. I've got the >> > manual for the DLV11 but it gives the digram for one big 40 pin Berg >> > style connector, whereas the DLV11J has 4 10-pin Berg style >> > connectors. >> > >> > Does anyone have the documentation for this? >> >> Normally, a DLV11-J also has the four 10pin connectors. The cable that >But a plain DLV11 is a single-line interface (like a DL11) and has a >single 40 pin Berg header. I suspect that's the pinotu Sellam has. >I would try to find the DLV11-J manual (the DEC one), which has 4 10 pin >Berg headers. If you can't find it, I'll see what I can do. At the risk of being wrong, but we did a fair bit of this once upon a time. The pin out of DEC 10p RS232 console ports were common across DRV11J, KXT11 & KXJ11 boards. The pin out of MDB JFEP-SLU RS232 ports were the same, we used common test leads. Very probably an MDB DRV11J uses the same pin out. The cookery for a DEC DRV11J null modem lead, taken from the 1980 Microcomputer Interfaces handbook, follows: pin connection 1 uart clock in or out N/C 2 signal ground RS232 pin 5(D9)/7(D25) 3 Tx Data + RS232 p2 4 Tx Data - N/C 5 signal ground N/C 6 Indexing pin - no key N/C 7 Rx Data - connect to p9 (ref signal for diffl rcvr) 8 Rx Data + RS232 p3 9 signal ground connect to p7 10 +12V, with F1 installed N/C NB link p7 to p9 and adjust 2/3 twists and connecter gender to taste. HTH Martin To reply only include lower case characters before the at. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 31 18:27:46 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: West meets East References: <200410281702.KAA17216@clulw009.amd.com> <200410281721.NAA14105@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <017301c4bd15$5fddf0c0$0200fea9@game> <006601c4bf9a$a2232ea0$424f0945@acme> Message-ID: <003101c4bfa9$a5a0e5e0$702d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 5:40 PM Subject: Re: West meets East > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teo Zenios" > > > Perot was the only candidate to get any percentage of the vote that I can > > remember in my lifetime. > > You must be a youngster. Ever heard of George Wallace? > > Glen > 0/0 > Well if being 36 years old makes me a youngster, guess I am. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 31 18:50:49 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Available: Mac IIfx Message-ID: <200410311950.49977.pat@computer-refuge.org> I managed to pick up a pair of Mac IIfx's at "my usual supplier" a few days ago, because I remember someone on this list wanting one. If interested, they're available for $15+shipping...assuming they actually work. Mail me off-list if interested. I'm in West Lafayette, IN, USA 47906. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at spies.com Sun Oct 31 19:35:03 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: C compilers for RSTS/E? Message-ID: <20041101013503.D6FF8423C@spies.com> this may be a bit more useful www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsxMWCsrc.tap.gz MWC == Mark Williams C running under RSX11M The compiler looks very V7-ish From paulpenn at knology.net Sun Oct 31 19:51:20 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul A. Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 problems References: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com><008f01c4bf80$f129bce0$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> <005f01c4bf9a$5889a120$424f0945@acme> Message-ID: <003901c4bfb5$49485740$6401a8c0@ibm6go1addn6c0> Glen wrote: > I've had one for about four years and the thing just keeps > trotting along. What spare parts should I be accumulating (if any)? For quite a while, we had to repair virtually every Kaypro 10 before we could sell it. Most common problem was the hard disk controller board. Lots of analog components and adjustments. Of course the early 10 MB hard drives were none too reliable either. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 31 19:54:26 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2004, at 2:20 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 13:42 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: >> Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, > > you might just about get the end of a power cable in that :-) > > > Gah!! I meant 2 feet x 2 feet... " inches 2 ticks, two syllables duh! I knowed that! From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 31 19:56:07 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: <20041031145511.F36122@shell.lmi.net> References: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041031145511.F36122@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <326BCDE6-2BA9-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Oct 31, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 13:42 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, >> you might just about get the end of a power cable in that :-) > > Epson RC-20 wrist watch computer with imitation Z80 > > Matsucom/Ruputer wrist computer (some similarities to Palm Pilot) > > Fossil wrist computer with Palm OS 4.1 (cancelled before release, but > there are rumors of prototypes) > > ( .)v(. ) [my beady eyes crossing trying to read 80x24 off a watch] :^) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 31 20:39:45 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: HP 7900A on ebay Message-ID: <007501c4bfbc$0cd06f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Search Ebay for "7900A" and you'll find it. Missing front screen. There was a day when I'd give most anything for one of these. Now I have a good supply so I thought I'd mention it in case anyone needed one. Anyways... the 7900A is one of the few HP drives that doesn't use a sector surface, it uses a glass reticule. If someone gets this drive and it needs work, let me know as I do have all the service manuals. More importantly, the 7900A is supported on most versions of TimeShared BASIC, including the "E" version which only needs one cpu. Regards, Jay West From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:49:18 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031214918.0090e6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:51 PM 10/31/04 -0800, you wrote: >On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > >> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: >> >> > Does anybody know exactly how Gary's name was spelled? I've found it >> > spelled both as Kildall and Kidall. >> Kildall. > >Most definitely. I've never seen anyone call him "Kidall" but that's just >out and out wrong. > Go do a Google search. There are lots of people that have spelled it that way. Joe >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:53:51 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20041030080705.00f89428@155.212.1.107> References: <41802179.6070505@mich.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> <19911053.1098913439653.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.32.20041027180114.00954e30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041027181302.03e74b70@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031215351.00a0e270@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:07 AM 10/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >Siemens and Intel worked together on Multibus-II products in the mid 80s' I don't know if Intel worked together with any of them but at one time there were over 200 companies producing Multibus cards. In this area, I find a LOT of Harris cards. Joe > >At 06:30 PM 10/27/2004 -0400, Dave Mabry wrote: >>I seem to remember that Intel had some sort of marketing agreement with >>Siemens. There were several Intel products that had Siemens logos on >>them sold in Europe. Unfortunately, I don't remember the specifics. >> >>Steve Thatcher wrote: >> >>> I lived in Munich, Germany for a year and a half back in 1983 while I >>> was working for Applied Microsystems. I developed a couple of the EM >>> series emulators and ran into a number of remarked Intel systems that >>> said Siemens on the outside. >>> >>> >>>> I've never heard of a Siemans system. The white MDSs that I've seen >>>> all >>>> have the standard Intel markings and labels. (I've got one sitting >>>> about 3 >>>> feet from me as I type.) >>>> >>>> Joe >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >Michael Thompson >E-Mail: M_Thompson@IDS.net > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Oct 31 21:01:34 2004 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: <326BCDE6-2BA9-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> <20041031145511.F36122@shell.lmi.net> <326BCDE6-2BA9-11D9-85C8-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:07 -0800, you wrote: > >On Oct 31, 2004, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> On Sun, 2004-10-31 at 13:42 -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: >>>> Has to sit in a 2" x 2" square area on my desk, >>> you might just about get the end of a power cable in that :-) >> >> Epson RC-20 wrist watch computer with imitation Z80 >> >> Matsucom/Ruputer wrist computer (some similarities to Palm Pilot) >> >> Fossil wrist computer with Palm OS 4.1 (cancelled before release, but >> there are rumors of prototypes) >> >> > >( .)v(. ) [my beady eyes crossing trying to read 80x24 off a watch] > >:^) > Well, I've got a Telnet application for my Handspring Visor, which is PalmOS 3 (I think, hard to keep caught up on that little stuff). I've been at a Windows NT Command Prompt on it once or twice (dialed into a machine at work at 33.6K.) Scary as hell, and very awkward using the Palm 'Graffiti' handwriting to 'type' at a DOS prompt. It would probably run on the Fossil wrist computer. I should try hooking into the serial interface on the Visor to see if it could substitute for a VT-220 to log into my Altos 586 running Xenix. *shudder* From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:57:15 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: new find: an Intel MDS 800 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041031153420.033d0130@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20041031085109.00958d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041030124019.00953be0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20041031085109.00958d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20041031215715.00909440@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:36 PM 10/31/04 -0500, you wrote: >Intel has a complete chronology of all their devices and systems at: > >http://www.intel.com/intel/intelis/museum/archives/timeline/ It's a dead link when I try it. How long since you've looked at it? I remember seeing a chronological list from Intel a couple of years ago but it only including ICs. Joe > > > >> How sure are you of these dates? I've been trying to find out exactly >>when the various models were released but never found found anything that >>was authoritative. >> >> Joe > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 31 21:03:53 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031214918.0090e6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20041031214918.0090e6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041031190246.F40590@shell.lmi.net> > >Most definitely. I've never seen anyone call him "Kidall" but that's just > >out and out wrong. On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Go do a Google search. There are lots of people that have spelled it > that way. There have also [ON THIS LIST!] been spellings of Kildare, etc. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Oct 31 21:44:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20041031214918.0090e6c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >Most definitely. I've never seen anyone call him "Kidall" but that's just > >out and out wrong. > > > > Go do a Google search. There are lots of people that have spelled it > that way. Which proves once again that the Internet should not be relied upon for anything :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 31 22:05:07 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: Kildall or Kidall? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Oct 31, 4 07:44:46 pm" Message-ID: <200411010405.UAA09682@floodgap.com> > > > Most definitely. I've never seen anyone call him "Kidall" but that's just > > > out and out wrong. > > Go do a Google search. There are lots of people that have spelled it > > that way. > Which proves once again that the Internet should not be relied upon for > anything :) "But I found it on the Web! It -must- be true!" -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From jvansickler at cox.net Sun Oct 31 22:21:45 2004 From: jvansickler at cox.net (Jim Van Sickler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:22 2005 Subject: cp/m box for software In-Reply-To: <41853397.5010801@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <001101c4bfca$4c9c0990$6600a8c0@GP02> Emanuel, An Amstrad PCW8256 / 8512 might be a good candidate, if it had the Serial/Parallel interface included. The printer that came with it was a dumb Tandy DMP-100 compatible; the printer's smarts were built onto the CPU card. If you want to use any other parallel printer, the interface is required. Ditto for using a modem or other serial device. (Plans are available for a DIY interface) The 3" drives can be replaced by 3 1/2" or 5 1/4" drives. They run CP/M Plus, on a 4MHz Z80A; WordStar/DBase II run fine on it. The two discs that shippedth it have a dedicated Word Processor program (LocoScript), and 3 sides of CP/M stuff. A guy named Harley Ristad created a set of CP/M discs with a bunch of utilities and info included. He called them his Basic Introduction To CP/M Hacking discs. I had a lot of fun with my (3) PCWs, and learned an enormous amount about CP/M while tinkering with them. If you live anywhere near Tucson, I'd be glad to give you one. My wife wants them gone, and I refuse to throw them away while they still work. Jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 11:49 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: cp/m box for software Hi all, did a little work on cp/m in the good old days, and thinking about getting at least one machine up again. As it would be mostly for having fun with the z80 again (or 8085, z180, z280?), I'm probably not interested too much in having any of the collector grade machines. So, the question is, what is the best cp/m machine for playing with the software ? cheers & thanks From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Oct 31 20:12:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:24 2005 Subject: require input form respected peers :^) In-Reply-To: References: <1099261233.16549.23.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20041101021237.GA25217@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Oct 31, 2004 at 05:54:26PM -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > Gah!! I meant 2 feet x 2 feet... > > " inches 2 ticks, two syllables duh! I knowed that! "The great and mighty Stonehenge was nearly crushed by a dwarf!" (or something close to that). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Nov-2004 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -56.5 F (-49.2 C) Windchill -70.7 F (-57.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.5 kts Grid 345 Barometer 673.2 mb (10884. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 30 23:45:48 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:50:31 2005 Subject: new find: another HP 1000! References: <3.0.6.32.20041030125123.0094db90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001901c4bee5$58ed6e40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000101c4c37c$fbccf1d0$9a88fea9@screamer> That's actually normal for F-series machines! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: Re: new find: another HP 1000! > Joe R> wrote... >> I checked and the >> CPU section has a DCPC card, Memory Protect Bd, Mem Bd, four 256KW memory >> cards and a 2102E Memory Controller. The IO side is full of cards. > > What's more interesting than the cards, is the firmware chips on the FEM > board, and on the FAB board underneath the cpu card (if it has one). > > Jay >